The Sun. — London, England, 1860-06-09 00:00:00

IIWPERIAI , PARLIAMENT. HOUSE C , F L ORD S—(YESTERDAY.) !Che LORD Ciw MELLOR took kis seat on the woolsack at. five o'clock. P RIVATE BUSINESS. Beauchamp Al mshouses Estate, Leeds Township, Egles ton Roads, Bull' ding Improvement Company, Upper Mer sey Dues, s'S .d North British, Peebles, and Jedburgh Railway bil' LS were read a second time. The folio Swin g bills were read a third time and passed : Bucks Cc' mty Rate, Coln River Water, and London and South-W 'eastern Railway (new line to Bristol and Exeter nallWal: at Exeter), CHURCH RATES. A nv,zaber of petitions were presented against the aboli• tion of church rates. Lo• rd LYVF,DEN presented a great many petitions in law Air of the abolition. THE BOMBARDMENT OF PALERMO. Lord BROUGHAM said that he was about to put a question. to his noble friend opposite, to which he hoped he would receive an answer in the negative. It was, whether there was any foundation for the accounts which had been spread in this country of the bombardment of the town of Palermo. For the honour of human nature he hoped there wras no foundation for this unexampled atrocity. He said ,unexampled, for the most execrable tyrant of ancient times .--Nero—even he was only charged with standing by in levity while Rome was burning, and was never charged 'with the still more atrocious offence of setting fire to the city for the purpose of destroying, amongst 600,000 human beings, those who were his enemies. He hoped there was no ground for this, because, though the principle of non intervention was sacred and ought to be scrupulously ob served, if it was unhappily proved that this account was true, he must say that that principle of non-intervention would be tried to the utmost. That principle was sacred and inviolable, but it did not and could not extinguish in their bosoms the natural feelings of humanity, could not prevent them from hearing with indignation and horror of those crimes that would be committed—if the answer were not given to him in the negative—or prevent them from wishing and praying for the speedy and entire liberation of the people of Sicily, and, if this account be correct, even by the downfall of their tyrants. Earl GRANVILLE said he was sorry to say that the Government had received finch intelligence as that which the noble and learned lord had alluded to. The noble lord ought to have given notice of his intention to put the ques tion to the noble earl the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. It was impossible to give complete an swers unless such rules were complied with. Lord BROUGHAM said he was perfectly well aware of that, and .he properly abstained from touching upon the political aspect of the question. OUR RELATIONS WITH ROME. Earl STANHOPE, in moving for a copy or extract of the despatch from the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to regulate the diplomatic relations with the Court of Rome since the cessation of her Majesty's legation at Florence, said that is the state of Central Italy, and the state of agi tation and alarm, and perhaps something more than alarm, which existed there, it was certainly not desirable that their lordships should be called on for any vote bearing on the political aspect of that question, nor had he any intention of proposing such a motion. His object merely was to call attention to the disadvantage and inconvenience which at tended the system of carrying on diplomatic relations with the Court of Rome since the cessation of her Majesty's mis sion at Florence. As to the exact time and mannerin which a be ter system might be introduced, her Majesty's mini sters must be the best, and indeed the only judges. He had no complaint whatever to bring against the gentleman who now carried on our diplomatic business with the court of Rome—Mr. Ode Russell—of whom he could only speak in terms of praise. His appointment was a very good one, and he justified his appointment by the ability and applica tion he had shown. In former times it used to be consi dared that penal consequences attached to any diplomatic intercourse with the court of Rome, and it was thought that any such diplomatic intercourse might expose the persons conducting it to the penalties of a prwmunire. At the Con gress of Paris her Majesty's ministers had no wish to ex pose themselves to those penalties, but it was found impos sible to avoid all intercourse with the court of Rome, for apart from all questions of a spiritual kind, there must oc casionally arise questions connected with their commercial relations with such towns as Civita Vecchia and Ancona, which required diplomatic intercourse. Her Majesty's Go vernment, therefore, determined to do that indirectly which they could not do directly, by sending an attache from Flo rence to Rome, to carry on whatever diploma tic business might be required, and with no greater salary. This gave rise to so much inconvenience that the Government resolved to apply a remedy to it, and accordingly in 1848 the act of the 11th and 12th Viet., ch. 108, was passed, which was en titled " An Act for establishing and maintaining diplomatic relations with the Sovereign of the Roman States." That act:consisted of two clauses only, but in its passage through their lordships' house a clause was introduced on a motion of as noble earl (the Earl of Eglinton), which declared that it should not be lawful for her Majesty to receive any mi nister from the court of Rome who should be in holy orders, a Jesuit, or belonging to any other religious era pr_ An ilia not now seek to disturb that decision of their lordships. On the contrary, it seemed to him, considering the state of religious feeling which prevailed in Ireland, that it would not be desirable to receive any such nuncio or legation. He did not in any manner seek to disturb that permission, but merely to show how we might establish a more direct inter course with Rome. At that time the Ministers of the Court of Rome took offence at this clause, and decided that as it imposed a limit on their free discretion, they would not receive any Minister from England. Eo that up to this time the act had remained a dead letter. He thought the time had now come for reviewing the subject. We had been carrying on diplomatic intercourse by means of an attache to the legation at Florence. That legation had now ceased, so that at least there must be some modification. He would ask what was the expedient to which Govern ment had had recourse. He presumed it had been neces sary to establish the attache either at the Court of Turin or that of Naples. To either of these there were great objec tions. Turin was at a considerable distance from Rome, and there certainly did not at present exist what the French called compatibility between those two Governments. If he were attached to Naples he would be 26 hours distant from the city of Rome. This was a natural opportunity of renewing diplomatic intercourse with Rome. The cessa tion of the legation at Florence would leave a fund suffi cient for the establishment of one at Rome, so that there would be no increase of expense. The Ministers who now advised the Pope were not the same as those who dissuaded him from accepting the act of 1848. We were asking no favour of the Court of Rome, but merely that the diplo matic intercourse between the two Courts should be more direct. From whatever side the overture might come, it was one that both parties might fairly and properly entertain. As to the inconvenience and disad vantage of the former system, he might appeal to a gentleman wio had held several diplomatic posts with high honour o himself, and who was now in England en joying his well •earned renown. He meant Sir Hamilton Seymour. He might also appeal to the testimony of the noble marquis near him (Normanby), who had filled the office of minister at Florence, and whose courtesy and hos pitality would not easily be forgotten by his countrymen. In the first place, there was an utter want of weight and dignity in this system. It was impossible that a young man, holding no higher rank than that of attache, whatever his ability, living, as most attaches must live, up three or four flights of stairs, could compete in weight and influence with the established missions of such powers as France and Aus tria. If he, with his slender salary, and at so early an age, was able to compete successfully with other ministers, it might become a question whether a lower salary would not suffice for our ministers at Paris or St. Petersburg. With all the personal merits of the gentleman who filled that post, there had been a want of weight and dignity in his representations. This had been felt in several cases. The whole system as it now existed was neither more nor less than a system of make-believe. We pretended in law not to send a minister to Rome, and in fact we sent one there from Florence. In public as in 'private life, a system of make-believe was never so effective as a straightforward mode of dealing. There was this further disadvantage. It was perfectly optional with the Pope, or the Pope's Ministers, whether they would or would not receive our minister. An ambassador or a plenipotentiary had a right to ask an audience of a sovereign; but in that instance it was entirely optional with the Pope whether he would grant the audience ; and there had been occasions when the attache had had great difficulty in obtaining an audience. The circumstances which had recently made the Court of Rome more willing to grant those interviews would probably induce them to receive a regular minister at that court. By limiting this intercourse to the lowest diplomatic rank and salary, we could not expect to be so well served as if one of the highest rank were sent there. The question of enlist ment in Ireland for the Pope was one that required to be dealt with by a very firm and prudent hand. The Courts of Berlin and Petersburg, though not in connection with thefehurch of Rome, had each several millions of Roman Catholic subjects. Those courts had intimated to the Court of Rome that ecclesiastical ministers would not be received , at Berlin or Petersburg ; and in consequence there had baen no resident minister of the Pope at either court, though they had been occasionally sent on special services. We may adopt the same course at those courts, that of employing an authorised agent a t h ome. That distinguished man, Chevalier Bunsen, had at one time filled that office in Rome. 1 He was convinced that a mission at Rome would be most conducive to the interests of art. The number of English students in sculpture, painting, an d architecture residing at Rome was greater than those of any other country. It was allowed that a two years' residence there was necessary for the full deve l opment of the artists' p owers. Sir Joshua i Reynolds had borne remarkable testimony to this fact. H a I said that before he went to Rome he imagined he had at tained something like excellence in painting ; but when he got there he felt like a little child. England was almost the only nation in the world that did nothing for its students res ident abroad. The Royal / Academy sent one student a year to Rome, but the Government did nothing at all. Mr. Gibson, the eminent English sculptor resident at Rome, adios. colossal statue of the Queen adorned the room adjoining where theirlordships sat, stated that France, Russia, Austria, Saxony, Naples, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, and other European powers, had academies at Rome—even Mexico had an academy there. France had at Rome five ar 1, itects, five painters, five sculptors, two landscape paint 21 s, and two engravers. Each student was sent there ler five years. The students from Russia were sent for se years, at an expense of £l6O a-year each. The French academy and the Naples academy had professors of their ow n ; all the other students were watched by the ministers of their respective countries. In 1844 Mr. Gibson said he visited England after an absence of 27 years. The late Sir Robert Peel sent for him, and told him that the Government had some idea of sending students to Rome, and wished him to give what information he could on the subject from his knowledge of the practice of foreign nations. He told Sir R. Peel that he was entirely ignorant of the state of sculpture in England, but that sinoe his arrival he had been examining and had seen defects of style, likwise an absence of those grand prin ciples which prevailed in Italian works. He said that the English Government spent a large sum in the erection of public monuments, but contributed nothing to the training of their students. If the English Government were to fol low the example of other nations, they would in the course of time have public monuments that would be a credit to them. It was unnecessary to add anything to the testi mony of so eminent an authority. The Prince Consort, writing to the Earl of Ellesmere in 1856, had said : " No country invests a larger amount of capital in works of art than England, and• in none is there a more extraordinary neglect of art-education." Some might object that ques tions of art were of no national importance. But he was sure that that objection would not proceed from the noble earl (Granville), nor from the noble earl (Derby) on his side of the house, whose attachment to art was well known, and who, not many weeks ago, had presented two valuable pictures to the National Portrait Gallery. It was only by study at Rome that our students could attain that elegance which distinguished Italian works. He said, therefore, that if an academy could be established at Rome, a mission to that city would be most useful and valuable, and even necessary. But if it turned out that this country were unwilling to manifest the same care for the cultivation of the fine arts as even Denmark or Mexico, still a mission would be most beneficial. Itwould be a very considerable boon to English artists r esident in Rome, who were by no means a small or insignificant body. They were a numerous, able, and devoted band, upon whose studies and exertions depended the fate of the painting and sculpture of this country in future years. In former years he (Earl Stanhope) could conceive that there might be a prejudice against such a mission, founded upon religious considerations. But ho submitted that this question was absolutely precluded by the act of 1848. That act had de cided that upon certain conditions we were willing and de sirous to establish diplomatic relations with the court of Rome. That he apprehended, therefore, was not the ques tion. It was no longer an open question whether it was desirable or practicable to have ,diplomatic relations with Rome. These were the considerations which had led him to bring this subject before their lordships. As to the ulti mate object, he hoped he might receive assurance that her Majesty's Government were favourable to the proposal; as to the exact time and circumstances, he felt that the ques tion must still remain undecided. He had at least endea voured to bring forward the subject in no party spirit, avoiding every ground of offence to any class of opinions in their lordships' house. He trusted that her Majesty's Go vernment, either then or thereafter, felt or might feel them selves enabled, by one and the same act, to place their diplo matic relations with Rome upon a sounder and better rela tion, and, at the same time, to encourage and protect the cause of British art. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl con cluded by moving for a copy of the despatch referred to. Lord WODEHOUSE said he hoped his noble friend would not think him indifferent to the cause of art in this country or abroad if he confined himself entirely to the ni plomatic view of the question. At the same time he could not help feeling that this was not a convenient time or op portunity to accomplish the end which his noble friend de sired. Before, however, he (Lord Wodehouse) sat down, he wished to explain to the house what was'the exact posi tion of our relations with the court of Rome, for though his noble friend had been generally most correct in his statements, he had yet fallen into one error. His noble friend had correctly stated the circumstances which led to the passing of the act of 1848, and of that particular clause of the act to which reference had mere especially been made. But with regard to the views of the court of Rome on the subject of the diplomatic relations between this country and that eourt, his noble friend would find that the court of Rome thought different than it did with regard to its relations with Prussia and Russia. The court of Reme considered that the intimation, which he believed was conveyed by the courts of Prussia and Russia to Rome, that they did not wish to receive a minister who was an ec clesiastic, was very different from the intimation conveyed by the House of Commons and the parliament of this coun try, viz., the law by which the prerogative of the sovereign was restricted as to her diplomatic relations with one parti cular country in the world, and with one only. It was felt to be not 'consistent with the dignity of the sovereign of Rome to send a minister to this country whilst that limita tion upon the prerogative of the sovereign of this country existed. He was not now going to discuss the policy of the clause; he had no wish to raise that question. He onlywished ' to state flirt/ter tutu, LUIS IMILIa Lzatl oLuLv of circumstances, our relations had been carried on with Rome in the same manner as they had been for a considerable time previously, They were conducted under the able management of Mr. Odo Russell, the attache at that court. His noble friend no doubt, had some ground for saying that an attache was not the same as a minister. Still Mr. Odo Russell had conducted our affairs at Rome in a very able manner, and very much to the satisfaction of the Government, and had placed our relations with the Papal Government on a most satisfactory footing. Under these circumstances the Go vernment had now to consider whether this would be a con venient opportunity for making a representation to the Papal court, to induce that court to receive a Minister from this country, without a Minister being sent from Rome to us. Ile should state that the Court of Rome had expressed its readiness to receive a simple mission. He thought that if the Government were to express such desire at the present moment, they would run the risk of placing themselves in a humiliating position, and the court of Rome in one of some embarrassment. The present momentwas, he thought, by no means a convenient one for taking such a step. Their lordships knew what was the distracted state ef Italy, and the divided condition of the Papal States. It had been be lieved very generally that her Majesty's Government had taken a very forward part in pressing upon the Pope of Rome the necessity of adopting changes in his Govern ment, and in urging him to taking a line of policy different from that which he had been pursuing. But on this point he (Lord Wodehouse) hoped there would be no misunder standing. Of course it was perfectly true that her Majesty's Government, in common with others, were earnestly de sirous that the sovereign of Rome should make a change in the administration of his dominions so as to render it more consistent with the justice and well-being of those who were placed under its rule. That they desired only in the in , terests of humanity and of the peace of Europe. The great difficulty in Rome had been the condition of the Papal States. But whilst the British Government had desired this, it had always been thought right that this country, being pre-eminently a Protestant State, should not take so prominent a part as others with regard to a Catholic State. Their course had, therefore, been for the most part to second the representations made by other Governments, and chiefly that of France. Matters being in this post tion, disapproving strongly as the Government did of the present condition of the administration of the affairs of the papacy, and the Pope being in so perilous a position, they thought it would be extremely injudicious to propose sending a minister to Rome at the present moment. Such a request would very probably meet with a refusal by the Pope, and would not tend to put our relations upon any other than an unsatisfactory footing. (Hear.) He was not aware that his noble friend had touched upon any other point. If at any time the sovereign of Rome should express a wish that a minister should be sent to Remo, her Majesty's Government would make no objection, and power was granted to them for the purpcse by the act of 1848 ; but her Majesty's Government did not think the present opportu nity a good one for making any change. No inconvenience arose at present, as his noble friend had stated, from Mr. Ode Russell being placed under the embassy at Naples, for he was able to correspond directly with the home Govern ment, although he sent his despatches to Naples to be for warded to the home Government in the ordinary course. The Earl of MALAIESBURY thought their lordships were much obliged to the noble earl for bringing this sub•• ject before the house. He entirely agreed with the noble earl upon the diplomatic subject on which he had addressed them. He did not distinctly see the force of saying that this was not the right time and opportuniy for sending a minister to Rome, because he thought the more serious the affairs of Italy were the more this country required the whole weight which it could give to its diplomacy in that country. He should, however, be the very first raan to declare that, whomsoever her Majesty's Government should think proper to send, it would be impossible for him to act with greater zeal, judgment, and discretion than that with which Mr. Odo Russell had acted. (Hear.) He (the Earl of Malmesbury) would say, from his own opportunities of judging, that he had been most successful in his intercourse not only with the ministers of the Pope, but with the Pope himself, and this under the great disadvantage of not holding a high rank. This disadvantage was chiefly felt in contending with the ministers of other nations. Nothing was more disadvantageous or more impolitic than for a gentleman in this position to be compelled to sit down. in conference with Ministers who had much greater authority for urging their claims and advocating their cause than he had. (Hear.) A point of detail had been referred to with which he was not before acquainted, viz., that Mr. Ode Russell had been attached to the court of Naples. He was inclined to ask why this gentleman had not been attached to the embassy at Turin, because it appeared to him that Mr. Russell's correspondence would be much more conveni ently, rapidly, and safely sent from that part of Italy than from Naples, considering the great distance of the latter from London. This, however, was a point for the judg ment of the noble lord, and he only ventured to state his opinion. Something had been said to the effect that in the event of our sending a Minister to Rome, the Pope might not consent to his reception at tais moment. But he (the Earl THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JUNE :‘!: 9, 1860. to the circumstances in which they were placed, and be lieving it to be an infringement of their rights and privi leges to be debarred from making any amendment in this bill, he abstained from moving any amendment. The Earl of WICKLOW did not know why Scotland and Ireland should be deprived of a benefit of this kind, for he understood the principle of this bill to be that it was to induce the people of this country to substitute a more whole some beverage for that fiery spiritual beverage—(a laugh) —to which they were now accustomed. If there were any portion of the empire to which this principle was most ap plicable it was to those two countries, Scotland and Ire land, where the manufacture of ardent spirits was princi pally carried on, and where, consequently, there was com paratively the greatest consumption. If they were to substitute wine for spirituous liquors, surely there was no portion of the empire that stood more in need of the benefits of this bill. As those two portions of the empire were to be deprived of the blessings of Parliamentary reform, he could not understand why they were also to be deprived of the benefits of beverage reform. The Earl of DONOUG H MORE said he understood that this was to be treated as a supply bill, and he was very sorry to hear it, because the greater part of the bill related to mat ters with regard to which that house was in the habit of legislating. He agreed with the noble earl (Earl Shaftes bury) that this was not a proper time to enter into a dis cussion of the privileges of the House of Lords, and, there fore, he should be very unwilling to introduce any amend ment. But there were certain clauses in the bill to which he entertained a strong objection, and he asked the noble earl whether any amendment of them would be a breach of the privileges of the House of Commons ? The whole of the licensing system under this bill differed essentially from that under which the licensed victuallers now obtained their licenses. The bill proposed to introduce a number of other persons into the trade. Now he did not ask for the licensed victuallers any monopoly. He did not think the house would support any suoh monopoly, but at least they had a right to demand that the conditions under which they were placed should be the same as those under which other persons were placed who had the same privileges. Now a licensed vic tualler had to apply to a magistrate, who had complete dis cretion as to whether he would or would not grant him a license. He had to go to the magistrates to obtain a certifi cate for a license, and then he went to the excise, and upon I that certificate the excise granted a license. But what was the course to be pursued under this bill ? The person who wished to obtain a license did not go to the magistrates, but to the excise, and the excise served a notice on the magis trates, and if the magistrates did not in a certain number of days enter a caveat the license would be granted as a matter of course; and the magistrates, moreover, could not enter that caveat without stating the specific grounds on which they did so. Now that was not putting these persons in the same position as the licensed victuallers; and for the pur pose of putting them in that position he would, if it were competent for him to do so, move to insert words in the 10th clause to the effect that no license should be granted except on the production of the certificate of magistrates, in the same way as they granted certificates to licensed victuallers. He should also move to insert words in the 13th clause. The noble earl opposite asked the reason why Ireland and Scot land were not included in this 'bill. He thought he could tell him. He believed that when the bill was first introduced it was intended to include those two countries, but it met with such opposition that if it had not been restricted to Eng land it would not have been carried. He thought the bill would be a failure, and he was not sorry to see that the expe rimentum in corpore viii, instead of being on Ireland; would for the first time be tried on England. The Earl of HARRINGTON said this was a mixed ques tion, partly fiscal and partly otherwise. He did not object to the free trade part of the till; but what he objected to was the new licensing system. Intoxicating drinks were the great causes of immorality, of irreligion, and disease ; and this bill would place crime more within the reach of the people. He denied that light wines, as they were called, were so innocent a beverage as they were said to be. Beer contained only eight per cent, of alcohol, but wine con tained from 10 to 40 per cent. The most eminent authori ties were agreed in stating that the people of this country taxed themselves to the amount of more than 50 millions a year for wines, spirits, beer, and tobacco, and he deprecated any measure which would place alcoholic drinks more within the reach of the people. Earl GRANVILLE said he gave the noble earl credit for the consistency and earnestness with which he advocated the temperance movement. The real question was not whether wine was a good or a bad thing, but whether this bill on the whole would encourage temperance. The noble earl thought it right to ge to the extreme, and he recom mended that a measure should be carried to enable the ratepayers to prevent a man from drinking a glass of beer. The Earl of HARRINGTON—No, only not in public houses. Earl GRANVILLE—But the noble earl would impose restrictions of that kind. But there was another way of promoting habits of temperance, by introducing the use of milder and less pernicious beverages, so as gradually to wean the people from those abominable liquors which they were accustomed now to consume. The right hon. gentle man, in introducing this bill, had been actuated by such an intention. Some of the objections which had been taken to this bill would vanish as soon as they were looked at. One noble earl had spoken very indignantly about certain clauses which hP did not appear to have examined for himself. He had referred to the aura clause ae aelding with the police in a manner never thought of in any legisla tive enactment before. But if he had read the clause, he must have seen in the margin that it was derived from the 10th and 11th Victoria, chapter 89, section 84. As to the grievance of the keepers of refreshment-houses being called upon to pay 10s. 6d. for a license, and to a number of those houses being placed in a difficulty by their leases not allow ing them to sell articles of this description, no such com plaints had reached the Treasury from the parties them selves since this bill was brought before Parliament. In his complaint of the police having access to all those houses, the noble earl laboured under a great mistake, for he sup posed that everybody would be obliged to take out a license, and would be liable to that police visitation. But it was only to those who kept nighthouses, which were open from nine o'clock at night till five o'clock in the morning, that the clause applied, and it was most necessary, in order to secure the public tranquillity, and for other reasons, that the police should exercise some superintendence over those houses. It was quite true that, by the wording of the clause the police would have a right to enter those houses in the day time as well as at night. That was a question which the Government had considered ; but if hereafter it should be thought advisable to alter the police acts in that respect, there might be some further legislation on the matter. As to whether their lordships' house had any power to alter the provisions of such a bill as this, he would not again raise the question of constitutional privilege. This bill no doubt was one partly of a fiscal character, and partly one which affected general policy. Their lordships, how ever, could deal with the latter portion only by amending or expunging the clauses relating thereto, and it was the in variable practice of the House of Commons to consider themselves obliged to reject any bill of this kind which had been so amended. Of course it might then be open to the Government in the other House of Parliament to re •intro duce the bill, but it would only be worth while to adopt that course in order to attain some very important object. A noble lord had expressed his wish to make an alteration in the bill, with a view to give the magistrates the same powers with regard to wine licenses that they now possessed with regard to public-houses. But one of the main objects of the bill was to diminish those very powers. At present the magistrates took upon them selves to decide what number of public-houses wore neces - sary in a district, and the result was a monopoly injurious to the consumer, and not beneficial to the public morals. Therefore, one of the great advantages of the bill was that it would make a change in that system, and any amend ment to the effect which the noble lord proposed could not be agreed to. Another noble lord had raised an objection, that it was hard for Ireland and Scotland to be excluded from the benefits of this bill, and his noble friend had volunteered an answer to that, saying that when the bill was first introduced it did apply to Ireland and Scotland, but that the Irish and Scotch made such an opposition to it, that the Government found it impossible to maintain that point. Unfortunately, this was quite wrong, and his noble friend had been greatly misinformed. Ireland and Scotland were not in the bill originally. He believed that in Ireland opinions were divided on the subject, some being in favour of the bill there, and some against it ; but in Scotland all the opinions he had heard were strongly in favour of it. According to the usual precedent, when this bill had been passed for England, a similar bill would be introduced, applicable to Scotland and to Ireland, with such modifications as might be desirable on account of the different police regulations and other circumstances of the country. The house then went into committee on the bill. The Earl of HARRINGTON drew attention to the 13th clause, defining the new powers of the magistrates. He proposed to strike out from line 27 to lino 41, and to put in some words, giving the magistrates the same powers, with regard to those wine licenses, that they now possessed with regard to other licenses, "in the exercise of a fair discretion, as provided by the act of the 6th George IV., chapter 6, section 1." Earl GRANVILLE remarked that he had already stated the reasons why he could not agree to this amendment. Lord DENMAN expressed his own opinion that, with the vast number of houses for the sale of drink that w ere now open in this country, the bill was quite unnecessary. The consumption of wine already amounted to 727,000 gal lons, which would be raised to 900.000 in the first year of the treaty, and he had observed that the price of wine had been reduced throughout thexountry during the last few days, in consequence of the reduction of the Customs duty. He thought there was no need to provide additional facilities for the traffic in intoxicating drinks. The amendment was withdrawn, and the bill passed ;hrough committee. After a few words across the table between the noble ords, Earl GRANVILLE fixed the third reading for Monday next. Sir John Barnard's Act Repeal Bill passed through coin. inittee. The Sale of Gas Bill was read a third time. Their lirdships then adjourned. of Malmesbury) could not understand the inconvenience of the position, because, before we sent a Minister to Rome, we should be able to ascertain whether he would be received or not. And with regard to the compliment not being re • turned, instances had occurred in which that had not taken place ; for until very lately Switzerland had sent no Minis ter to this country—very much, as he thought, to her own detriment—for if she had, very much of what had happened might have been prevented. The noble lord had seemed to suppose that it was the intention of the supporters of the view of the noble earl (Stanhope) to adopt the line of inter fering with the affairs of Italy. He was very glad to find that spirit animating the noble lord opposite. He hoped the noble lord would not act upon that policy, in the pre sent state of our relations with the Italian States. After the terrific scenes which had been enacted at Palermo, let the noble lord be very careful how he paFsed an opinion upon the acts of the Italian Governments. When her Majesty's Government blamed, and very naturally blamed, the slaughter and loss of life arising from the bombardment of Palermo by the Nea politan ships, were they not precluded from any severity of expression by history itself, and that very recent history ? (Hear, hear.) Those who now condemned the Neapolitan Government for bombarding Palermo might recollect that only in 1849 the King of Sardinia, Victor Emmanuel him self, bombarded Genoa, and that the operation was carried out by this self-same man Garibaldi. (Hear, hear.) God forbid that he (the Earl of Malmesbury) should justify either act. But if their lordships or her Majesty's Government interfered in the affairs of Italy, they were only exposing themselves to very severe observation, and even to great blame, if they allowed such interference to take place after they had given expression to their views by any rash speeches in that house. (Hear, hear.) The Marquis of NORMANBY could add the testimony of his personal observation as to the inconvenience of con ducting our diplomatic relations with Rome in the present manner. During three years' experience as Minister he had received every possible assistance from the eminent men who had been attaches at Rome. Lord Lyons, who was during part of that time in almost daily eerrespondence with him, complained frequently of the inconvenience he experienced in treating with the Court of Rome and its Mi nisters, and of the extremely disagreeable position in which English diplomatic agents were placed, as compared with those of other powers. Helthe Marquis of Normanby) felt indeed how undesirable it was that a person in holy orders should act as Minister from the Court of Rome in this country, but he regretted that the course which was pursued with so much success by the Courts of Prussia and Russia was not adopted by this country also. MALICIOUS INJURIES TO PROPERTY ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Lord CHELMSFORD, in moving the second reading of this bill, explained that its object was to cure a defect in the law which had been discovered on the indictment of a per son for obstructing a steam-engine, and so causing the flood ing of a mine. The offender could not be convicted under the act 7th and Bth Geo. IV., because the engine itself was not injured, neither could he under that of the following year, because he had not caused the water to be conveyed to the mine, but only to accumulatethere. The LORD CHANCELLOR was sanguine that the Consolidationßill, which had already passed their lordships house, would become law before the prorogation, but in the event of a different result, it was desirable by means of the present bill to effect the improvement of the law required. The bill was therefore read a second time. ALLEGED SECESSION OF ENGLISH SHIP WRIGHTS TO THE FRENCH DOCKYARDS. Viscount DUNGANNON asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the report that from 400 to 500 work men had been discharged from the dockyard at Portsmouth, there being no employment for them, and were now en gaged as shipbuilders at Cherbourg and other ports of France, was correct. It was well known that great activity Prevailed in the French dockyards, whether with a view to put the country in an efficient state of defence, or with a view to an aggression on some other power, he could not of course say ; but the report to which he referred had caused great uneasiness in the public mind ; and he should there fore be glad to hear from the noble duke either that the statement was unfounded, or that, at all its, the state of our navy was such as to be quite aattfactory to the noble duke. The Duke of SOMERSET—In order that I may reply with clearness to the question which the noble viscount has put to me, I will divide it into two parts, First, is it true that between 400 and 500 workmen have been dis charged from Portsmouth dockyard ? and, secondly, are they engaged in shipbuilding at Cherbourg or other ports of France? Now, as regards the first of these two questions, I can answer that a good many men have been discharged since the commencement of the financial year. Last year, when I came into office there was a programme of very ex tensive works to be performed ; and on examination I found that we should not have either enough money or men enow to complete it within the year ; I therefore took another vote for £lOO,OOO, and added considerably to the number of men in the dockyard; and during the last four or five months of the last financial year there was a larger number employed than had ever been the case since the commencement of the present century. In fact the number was almost double the usual one. When the work had gone on for some time, I was advised that if it continued at the same rate our stock er Limber would soon be exhausted ; and that it was neces sary, if we wanted good wood, that it should proceed some , what more slowly. Nevertheless, I determined to make no alteration till the end'of the financial year, and then I gave directions that the number of men should not be suddenly reduced, but that a few should be dismissed every week, so that on the one hand the authorities might get rid of the in ferior workmen, and on the other, those who were discharged might have a better opportunity to obtain work elsewhere. In this manner the establishment was reduced from 20,000 to 17,000 and some hundreds, those dismissed being inferior workmen. With regard to their having found employment in France, I must say that, to the best of my belief, there is no foundation whatever in that report. (Hear.) I saw the statement to which the noble viscount refers some weeks ago, and having made inquiries into its truth I was informed that they had a sufficient number of native workmen in both the Government and the private dockyards at Cher bourg. I learned also that it was extremely improbable that English workmen would go there, because the highest rate of wages was only 4 francs a day, whereas the rate in Eng land was 65.; and further, that 400 shipwrights had actually, from motives of economy, been dismissed from the Govern ment establishment at Cherbourg. This may serve to quiet the noble viscount's apprehensions. We have still more men in our dockyards than we had in 1815, when we had the greatest number ever known till now; our workmen have not found employment in France, but the French Govern ment have dismissed a considerable number of their own hands ; and it is very improbable, from the difference be tween the rate of wages in the two countries, that our men will ever think of seeking employment across the Channel. (Cheers.) The Earl of SHAFTESBURY could corroborate what had fallen from the noble duke. He happened to have pri vate information (on which, however, he could most confi dently rely) to the effect that two men had been over to Cherbourg seeking employment, and that in a very short time they were found to be in a state of starvation, and were obliged to be sent back to this country. The only point on which his information differed from that of the noble duke was as to the highest rate of wages, which he was told was 5 francs instead of four. He was anxious that the truth should be known, lest any other English shipwrights should be tempted to go over on a wild-goose chase to France, and thus subject themselves to hardship and - privation. (Hear.) Lord DUNGANNON was perfectly satisfied with the noble duke's explanation, but he had felt the question was one that ought to be set at rest. (Hear, hear.) REFRESHMENT HOUSES AND WINE LICENSES BILL. • Earl GRANVILLE, in a few words which were inau dible in the gallery, moved that their lordships go into committee on this bill. The Earl of SAAFTESBURY said that as the measure appeared to be considered a supply bill they were precluded from making any alterations in it ; but he must say that it struck him as being fully as much a police bill as a bill of supply. The measure had been very much improved, in deed, during its passage through the other house, but there were still two or three points in it that were deserving of note. In the first place, there were a great number of re freshment houses on which a license of 10s. 6d. per annum would operate as a very heavy tax. If any of their lord ships ever went into the bye-ways of London they would see places where they sold sheep's-heads and fish, and where the whole of the furniture was not worth the price of the license, and yet they were refreshment houses, much fre quented by the poor. Another question that struck him was, as to the extent of the bill's operation. On the Hope estate, Lord Portman's estate, the Duke of Portland's, and many other ♦ery extensive ones, the tenants were strictly prohibited by their leases from opening refreshment houses. But the point that struck him as most serious was the very extreme power which was given to the police. By the 18th clause any policeman or constable might enter any refresh ment house whenever he pleased, and might go down into the collar or up into the garret—(laughter)—at any time of the day or night. lie quite agreed as to the propriety of allow ing the visits of the police in cases where wine or spirituous liquors were sold; but he could not see any need for them in the case of confectioner's shops, many of which were ex ceedingly respectable. In the 39th clause there was a pro vision which had never before found its way into an Act of Parliament—a provision making it a petal offence in any seller of wine, beer, or ci3cr, te harbour the police. So that if by any means a policeman were allured into one of those places, here was a provision which declared his being found there to be a penal offence. He knew that this had given cause for a great deal of apprehension ; he knew that many people were extremely uneasy about it ; and he believed that the Government themselves were ready to admit that this was a provision which required amend ment. lie was not going to move any amendment, because this was to be considered a supply bill, and just at the pre sent moment it was not desirable that they should raise the question of the rights of the house as to supply bills. At the present moment he refrained from making any motion, but the public must see that if restrictions were imposed upon the free action of that house it would be very detrimental indeed to the public service. Reserving his personal opinion as to the rights and privileges of the house, yielding only/ HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. CLARE ELECTION. The Chairman of the committee appointed to try the merits of the Clare election petition brought up the report, which stated that the committee were of opinion Mr. Cal cutt, the sitting member, had been duly returned. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Aylesbury and Buckingham Railway Bill and West End of London and Crystal Palace Railway Bill were read a third time. The Hay Railway Bill was _considered and ordered for third reading. PETITIONS. Several petitions were presented in favour of the intro - duction of some measure to amend the present defective mode of registering births and deaths, for the opening of the British Museum and other public institutions on Sun day, &c. LONDONDERRY ELECTION COMMITTEE. The Chairman of this committee brought up the report, declaring that Mr. M'Cormack was duly elected for the city of Londonderry. THE ROYAL PROCLAMATION. Mr. L. KING asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Royal Proclamation for the encouragement of piety and virtue, and for the prevent- ing of vice, profaneness, and immorality, ordered by her Majesty to be revised on the 24th day of April was yet revised. Sir C. LEWIS said that the proclamation had been re vised and submitted to the Lord Chancellor, who approved of it in its altered form. It would be submitted to her Majesty to-morrow (this day). FOREIGN EXPORTATION OF CORKS. On the motion that the house at its rising do adjourn till Monday, Mr. T. DUNCOMBE asked the Chancellor of the Ex- chequer if, in consequence of the reduction of duty on the importation of foreign wines, he had any reason to believe that his anticipations that the free exportation of unmanu factured cork from all parts of Spain might take place, would be fulfilled. The hon. member stated that he had received communications to show that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been misled in his views on this subject. THE SUBMARINE TELEGRAPH CABLE TO GIBRALTAR. Col. P. HERBERT asked the Chancellor of the Exche quer a question with regard to the submarine telegraphic cable to Gibraltar, for which a sum of £30,000 was granted last year. THE AD VALOREM DUTIES. Mr. S. FITZGERALD - asked the Chancellor of the Ex chequer what progress was made by the commission ap pointed to arrange the ad valorem duties, and who were now engaged on the subject in Paris. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in reply to the last question, said that up to the present time there had been no definitive communication made to Government which could enable him to give a satisfactory answer to the question of the hon. member. With respect to the ques tion of the hon, member for Finsbury, he regretted that the hon. member had not drawn his attention to the com munications on which he founded his statement, which it appeared had been three months in his possession. The class whom the hon. member represented, namely, those employed in the cork business of this country, con sidered that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had made an erroneous statement in reference to the superiority of foreign workmen employed in England in this business. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could not alter his opinion on the subject until he had investigated the docu ments laid before him. The six Catalonians to whom he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had referred obtained higher wages in this country than Englishmen, and therefore he naturally inferred that the foreign workmen in this parti cular description of employment were superior in skill. With respect to any change in the law of Spain in regard to the exportation of corks, he informed the hon. member that there was no law in that country against such exportation, but in Catalonia there was an arrangement amongst the workmen prohibit ing the exportation of these articles in an unmanufactured state, and resembled the trades unions in this country. The authorities very naturally did not wish to oppose the wishes of this class. With reference to the other ques tion which had been asked he begged to inform the hon. and gallant member that there was a vote in the estimates for the expense of laying down a cable to Gib raltar, and when it came before the house in this form, then would be the time to discuss the question. Ho would state that, with one exception, the laying of the deep sea fathom cable had been a failure, and under the circumstances the Government would not recommend any large vote in the present instance. THE NAVY IN CHINA. Sir G. B. PECHELL asked the Secretary to the Admi ralty whether it was intendei to give to the navy serv ing in China the same extra pay and allowances enjoyed by the army in India, and which are said to be now granted to the military forces to be employed with the navy in the same quarter ? CIVILIANS IN INDIA. Mr. VANSITTART asked the Secretary of State for India whether the names of those civilians on the Bengal establishment who were killed in action, murdered, or died from wounds and exposure during the late mutiny, be tween the 11th day of May and the 19th day of November, 1857, had at any time bee. bruught wider tko us, tis..o Government ; and whether any monument would be erected to their memory ? CAPTURE OF AN AMERICAN SHIP. Mr. SOME S asked the Secretary of State for India, whether an American ship had been taken up by Goverß ment for the conveyance of stores from Calcutta to China ; whether eligible British ships were tendered for the same service ; and if so, whether he would state the reasons which induced the Government to make such selection ? LOCAL ARMY IN INDIA. Sir DE LACY EVANS asked the Secretary of State for India whether the bill respecting- the lecal army in India had not better be introduced on some other than a motion day, Tuesday the 12th of June ? Sir C. WOOD, in reply to the first question, said that the subject of erecting such monument was still in abeyance. As regarded the question of the hon. member (Mr, Somes) he was not aware that any such contract as that alluded to had been made, as he had not received any despatch on the subject.. In reply to the hon. and gallant member for Westminster (Sir De Lacy Evans) it was his intention to bring on the bill in question on Tuesday, at such a reason able time in the evening as would afford ample opportunity for its discussion. GOVERNMENT PURCHASE OF LAND AT PORTSMOUTH. Lord W. GRAHAM inquired of the Secretary of State for War whether the land sold at Portsmouth for £B,OOO, and re purchased for £28,000, was originally purchased under an act of the Bth of Queon Anne, which recited that the land was specially to be bought for the use and purposes of the defence of Portsmouth ; and further declared, " that all and singular the premises should be unalienable from the Crown." Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said some years ago the fashion was to sell all Government property, but a reaction had taken place, and at Portsmouth no land would be disposed of by Government for the purposes of the towns people, however beneficial the object might be. He deprecated strongly the erection of the fortifications at Portsdown Hill, which in the ease of an invasion would be quite useless. He thought the body to whom the carry ing out of these matters depended not properly constituted. SALARY OF THE CLERK OF . THE COUNCIL. In reply to Mr. GRIFFITH, Lord PALMERSTON said that the salary of the retir ing clerk of the Council was £2,500 a year, and the salary of his successor would be only £1,200 a year. Mr. S. HERBERT said, in answer to Colonel Dickson, that the relative rank of the army surgeons had been fixed by the warrant, and he did not think it expedient that it should be disturbed. In his opinion the importance of the medical officer was so great that it was necessary he should always have sufficient rank to give weight to any opinion he night advance. Colonel DICKSON wished to know whether the order was to be retrospective ? Mr. S. HERBERT said it was to apply to every officer at present in the service. Colonel DICKSON asked whether surgeons of 1853 would take precedence of majors of 1854? Mr. S. HERBERT said that every officer would take rank according to his seniority in the service. With regard to the question of Lord W. Graham, as to the sale and pur chase of land at Poi tsmouth, the fact was that the land there had not as yet been purchased back, but with regard to the legality of the proceeding there could be no doubt, as the land had not been purchased in the first instance under the act of Anne, but under a vesting act of 1784. It was sub sequently vested in the Ordnance and sold under the pro visions of that act. With regard to the policy of these transactions, he thought there was a great deal of truto in the observations of the hon. member for Portsmouth; but it:should be remembered that the railway company to which he alluded had asked for permission to cut right through the defences. It was true they :offered to undertake that these works might be 'destroyed in case of war; but pro• raises of that kind were generally very difficult of fulfil• went. After an observation from Sir J. ELPHINSTONE, Mr. S. HERBERT said that when the matter came be fore the house it would be found that no proper precaution had been lost sight of. FORTIFICATIONS OF PORTSMOUTH. Sir C. NAPIER sail he must express his regret that no member of her Majesty's Government had given an answer to the question put by the hon. gentleman the member for Portsmouth. It appeared that they were now going to for tify Portsmouth harbour, but he could not for a moment suppose that any naval man or engineer would be consulted with respect to such fortifications. An immense amount of money had already been expended in erecting stone bat- teries, but that was only a positive waste. The entrance to Portsmouth harbour was narrow and surrounded with shoals, and if an old hulk were sunk in the narrowest part it would be totally impossible for any enemy to enter. Or instead of sinking an old hulk they might moor one at the entrance and fill it with damp powder, the smoke from which would fill the whole harbour, and thus prevent any enemy's ship from entering. He believed that with the Armstrong or Whitworth guns mounted in the Isle of Wight they could destroy all the fortifications of Portsmouth without any difficulty. The only possible way in which this country could be defended was by a large, well• manned, and well-disciplined fleet. During the great war, when all Europe was against us, England was defended by her fleet alone. THE WAKEFIELD PETITION. Capt. JERVIS said that understanding from the hon. and learned gentleman the Attorney-General that the pro secutions in connexion with the Wakefield petition had been instituted under the statute law, and not under the common law, he should withdraw his motion on the sub•• ject which stood in his name on the paper. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that if, contrary to his opinion, it should be found the lapse of one year was an objection to the prosecutions he had instituted, no attempt would be made to support those prosecutions by resorting to the common law. (Hear.) If it turned out that they were affected by time, contrary to the opinion of himself and of those with whom he had consulted, the prosecutions would certainly be given up. (Hear.) THE SLAVE TRADE. Mr. CAVE rose to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention had been directed to the Mes- sage of the President of the United States to Congress, on the 19th day of May, respecting the slave trade ; and whe ther her Majesty's Government had received any recent communications from the Government of the United States, or intended making any fresh proposals to that Govern ment on this subject ? Lord J. RUSSELL said it was unfortunately too true that the slave trade was extensively carried on in Cuba, between 30,000 and 40,000 slaves being annually im ported into the island. It was also true that it was carried on in contempt of the treaty between this country and Spain, and that at present there were no efficient means for suppressing it. This want of efficient means arose from various causes, one of whioh was, as had been stated by the hon. gentleman, the jealousy on the part of America of any regulations that could interfere with the free action of American vessels. Another cause was the imperfection of the American law. An article had been introduced by his noble friend (Lord Palmerston) into some of the treaties in reference to the slave trade, called the equipment article, but there was no such provision in the American law. It therefore ft equently happened that vessels upon the coast of Africa completely equipped for the slave trade, intending to embark 200 or 300 slaves in the night-time, and fitted up for that purpose, had been seen by our cruisers under the American flag, but they were of course unable to interfere with them, and though they might point them out to the American cruisers, still there was no power of interference, there being no law of the United States which would justify it. There was also another difficulty with regard to having no flag. When a British vessel appeared. the slavers hoisted the American flag, and when an American cruiser appeared she threw away the flag and destroyed her papers, in which case the cruiser had no power to seize her, though if a Bri tish cruiser were in sight the latter would be enabled to do so. Her Majesty's Government had proposed to the Govern ment of the United States that by keeping the British and American cruisers in company off the coast of Cuba one might be prepared for a ease where the American flag was hoisted, and the other for a case which there was no flag used at all. The question was now under the consideration of the American Government, and so far as it had been con sidered it seemed to have been favourably received. As yet, however, no promise had been obtained from the American Government to amend their law, but the statement they made was a very well founded one, namely, that it was not likely that any proposition for rendering the American laws against slavery more stringent would ever receive the sane tion of the Congress of the United States. The question had engaged the attention of her Majesty's Government, who had in preparation a despatch upon the subject, which they proposed, to transmit to various governments. It was doubtless mortifying as well as shocking to feel that when we had done so much we were not able to destroy altogether a traffic which was not only repugnant to all our feelings of humanity, but was absolutely a direct infringement of treaties. (Hear, hear.) There was, however, a subject upon which he thought some good might be effected. The slave trade had hitherto been extended to China, persons having been kidnapped and forcibly abducted from their homes by the most atrocious means. He thought that might be put a stop to, but there was a distinction between the African slave trade and that with China. In Africa the traffic had been fostered by wars and civil contests in which whole villages had been destroyed by every kind of violence. The case with respect to China was wholly different, inasmuch as the people there were highly civilised and subject to severe laws, and the Government possessed very efficient powers if they chose to exercise them. It had been hitherto an object which had been attended with success to employ the agency of the Chinese Government in putting an end to kidnapping, and substituting a system of emigration. He trusted that by these means something would be done to eradicate the slave trade. When they compared what was the case many years ago, when 140,000 slaves left Africa in one year, with the state of circumstances in the present year, the number having been reduced to 30,000, he thought they would admit that sufficient progress had been made in the question to justify them in not abandoning all Lupo of ulthuat.lr .f Oho trade. (Hear.) Mr. S. FITZGERALD reminded the noble lord that he had not answered his question in reference to the extension of time for the conversion of ad valorem duties. Lord J. RUSSELL said he had received no official infor mation upon the subject. ENGLISH SHIP WRIGHTS IN FRANCE. Mr. B. JOHNSTONE said he wished to call the atten tion of the house to a question of considerable importance. Some time ago he had asked the Secretary of the Admiralty if it was trite that several of the shipwrights of• the dock yards had been discharged, and had all gone over to France. The answer of the noble lord was that he knew nothing of the matter, but a statement had since ap peared in the newspapers which showed that the fact was precisely as he (Mr. Johnstone) had stated it. He be lieved he was quite within the mark in stating that the ac tivity in the French dockyards was such that at the present moment there were no less than 1,200 or 1,500 of our best dockyard artisans and shipwrighs employed there. If the ) calamity of war between the two countries should arise, it was true that we might have the pleasure of taking those ships which those men had helped to build, but still he re garded it as a great misfortune that such a state of things should exist. Mr. B. OSBORNE bore testimony to the anxiety which prevailed on this subject. He wished to ask the noble lord (Lord C. Paget) if he was able to contradict a state ment that had been given as the reason for discharging those men from our dockyards. The reason given, as he understood, was that there was not two years' supply of timbers in store. He also wished to ask the Secretary for Ireland what course he intended to take with regard to those Irish bills which had been on the paper for so long a time? (Hear.) There was a bill for the registration of births, marriages, and deaths, brought in by the Government, and he believed a bill had been brought in on the same subject by the noble lord opposite (Lord Naas), which stood fir that night also, and there were also two Landlord and Tenant Bills. Ho thought, therefore, it would be very convenient to gentlemen connected with Ireland, if the Sec retary for Ireland would state what course he intended to take in respect to these bills. Lord C. P AGET said he perfectly remembered the ques tion which the hon. member had put to him some weeks ago with regard to the discharge of artificers from her Ma jesty's dockyard, and who, it was stated had gone to Cher bourg to enter the imperial dockyard there. Now that state ment had caused a good deal of sensation, which was not con fined entirely to this side of the water. The result was that our consul at Cherbourg wrote to state that there was no truth whatever in the report of any English workmen having gone into the imperial dockyards at Cherbourg. He stated, moreover, that it was contrary to the regulations that an y foreign artificer should work in the French dockyards; he added also—which was a still more conclusive argument— that whereas both in private trade and under the system of the Royal dockyards in this country the men were earning about 6s. a day, in France the wages were about 4f. a day. It was not likely, therefore, English workmen, when there was plenty of work to be had all round the country, should go across the water to work for 4f. a day. (Hear.) He did send, however, to Sir Richard Mayne to inquire whether any number of men had asked for passports, and he (Sir R. Mayne) found on making inquiries at the Southwark Police court that only one man, named James Bindon (as we un derstood), a shipwright by trade, who had been employed in one of the dockyards but had been lately discharged with a great number of his fellow-workmen, had applied for a pass port, and had proceeded to Cherbourg with several other men. That was according to the statement of that man, but he was the only individual who was known to have asked for a passport, and he was not refused one. It might be said that the Admiralty had discharged a great number of men, but he could assure the house such was not the case. In the winter, when the work was very slack, a good number of workmen were put on in the dockyards, because there was a good sum of money in hand. Those men were, as he said, employed in the winter months, but with a warning that they would be discharged at the end of the financial year. But the Admiralty were Anxious that those die charges should be very gradual, and'only a very small pro portion were discharged, who had no difficulty in finding occupation elsewhere. But perhaps the hon. gentleman would not think they were unduly stinted in the dockyards when he (Lord C. Paget) told him they were now working there with 17,556 men--(hear)—the greatest number ever employed at any former period in the present century, the number employed during the great war with France being only 14,754. (Hear.) The hon. member for Liskeard (Mr. B. Osborne) wanted to know whether the men who had been discharged were sent away in consequence of there not being . a sufficient quantity of timber in store. [Mr. OSBORNE observed that he had said that was the rea son given.] That might be part of the reason, but they were not going to keep up in the dockyards that enormous mass of men. They had already a great number of ships built, and of course they should fall short of timber if they we re to keep up such a mass of men. But according- to tho ordinary consumption, they had now two years' stock of timber in hand, and his hon. friend would find that th - ) in terests of the country were not neglected. Mr. R. OSBORNE here intimated that he was per fectly satisfi d with the explanations of the noble lord. Lord C. PAGET continued—The hon. and gallant mem ber for Brighton (Sir G. Pechell) had asked him whether it was the intention of the Admiralty to give the same extra pay and allowances to the naval forces now in China as to .hose in India. He was afraid of saying anything which might hold out hopes which might be disappointed ; but he could assure his hon. friend that the Admiralty would act strictly according to the precedent of the day, and would do all the justice they could to the naval forces employed ; but he could not distinctly answer the question as to what the allowances would be. (Hear, hoar ) THE POST-OFFICE EMPLOYES. Mr. BOWYER. said the house w..s no doubt aware that very great and extensive discontent existed at present in the Post• office. lie was informed that a committee had been appointed by that department itself for the purpose of in quiring into the grievances of the servants of the establish ment ; but owing to some difficulties as to the power of the committee, two of the members had resigned, and the com mittee became for a time paralysed. He was told that since that time two gentlemen from the Treasury had beeti added to the committee, which then resumed its labours ; bat some of the officials at the Post-office had no confidence in the committee, and they declined going befo;e it. Since then a public meeting of the persons whe con:plained of grievances had been held, at which some strong language was used, and he was informed that 44 persons who took part in that meeting had been since suspended. He wished therefore to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether it was true that those men had been suspended for exercising the constitutional privilege of meeting to petition that house and whether the Government would take their case into consideration. Mr. LAING was afraid he could hardly give the hon_ gentleman a specific answer, not having had notice of his intention to put the question. It was true, however, that a committee of superior officers of the Post-office was ap• pointed some time ago, and some difficulty arose with regard to the instructions given to the committee, and some resigned. In that state of things, before Lord Elgin left for China, the committee was reconstituted with full power to make an accurate inquiry. One of the members of the com mittee was Mr. Stephens, of the Treasury, a gentleman. who was well known to hon. members of that house who ha d sat upon committees. That committee had been very act ively engaged in their inquiry, and had taken the pains to g:o to the Post-office at 4 o'clock in the morning, in order to see with their own eyes, and every opportunity had been given to the men to state their grievances. He believed it wor uld be found not to be true that they had no confidence in 1 he committee of superior officers. He could answer for it ttl tat this commission would be a thoroughly searching and fa n partial one. I-1 e thought the house must see that, undi, er these circumstances, where there was a large number of ma n working together, it was necessary that discipline should ha enforced, and if any of the men should hold public meeting's for the purpose of preventing their fellow workmen from coming forward to state their grievances before the com— mittee it might be necessary for the department to mark their sense of that conduct by suspension. He was not aware that that was done, but he thought it probable, if the facts were as represented, such a course might be necessary. He hoped, however, that the report of the commission would be very shot tly ready to be submit ted to the house, and it would then be seen whether the remedies which the Government might think fit to adopt would be sufficient to meet the grievances complained of; if not it would be open for any hon. metaber to move in the matter. (Hear.) LAWS OF JERSEY. Mr. HADFIELD asked the Secretary ,of State for the Home Department when the report of the con; mission which had been appointed some time ago for inquiving into the laws of Jersey would be presented to the house • Sir G. C. LEWIS replied that there had been a ome delay in printing the evidence, but he believed the report would be presented in about a fortnight. THE IRISH LAND BILLS. Lord FERMOY complained of a proposition having been made that there should be a morning sitting for the discus sion of the Irish Land Bills, and also for the further progress of some Scotch bills. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND said if these Irish Land Bills were to be passed into law this ses sion, it would be absolutely necessary that the house should agree to proceed with them at a morning sitting. The motion for adjournment to Monday was then agreed to. EAST INDIA-DISARMING NATIVES. Mr. H. BAILLIE moved an address for copies of all cor respondence with the civil governments of India regarding the disarming of the natives, together with any minutes and opinions recorded by members of the late board of di rectors previously to the transfer of the Indian governments to her Majesty, and subsequently of the Council of India, having reference to the subject. The motion was agreed to. STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATES. - - - On the motion of Mr. H. B. SHERIDAN leave was given to bring in a bill to enable cities, towns, and boroughs of 30,000 inhabitants and upwards to appoint stipendiary ma gistrates. MERCHANT SERVICE. Air J. TALPIIINOTONE ion° to move fnr leave to bring in a bill to establish a test for anchors and chain cables for the merchant service, when An HON. MEMBER moved that the house be counted. There being only 38 members present, the house ad journed at 10 minutes to 9 o'clock. COUNTRY MARKETS. LIVERPOOL-JuNE 8. We had a very good attendance at to-day's market, and a large consumptive demand for wheat at 4d peecental ad vance on the week's extreme rates. Oats were a dull sale. Oatmeal also on a retail scale. Beans and peas steady, and barley in fair request. Indian corn much pressed for sale, and is per qr. cheaper. Flour steady, at improved prices. The market closed healthy for wheat and flour. WAKEFIELD-JurrE,S. At our market we had a fair attendance. English wheat was in good supply, but dull, at 2s over last week's prices. Barley, oats, beans, and shelling steady. Averages for the week : Wheat 1,764 qrs., at 53s iota Peas •• —s Od Beans 8ar1ey......... 400 — 37 s Oct Oats — —5 Oct Rye — —s Od EXETER-JUNE 8. With a tolerable attendance, the business to-day was steady at the following prices : Wheat, white-6s 9d to 7s Od I Barley. ..4s 4d to 4s Bcl Ditto red 6s 6d to 6s 9d Oats Flour, fine, 40s to —s ; seconds, 38s to —s per sack. CATTLE. The attendance was good, and the market was moderately supplied with fat stock. Trade dull. A small supply of pork carcases, at higher rates. Fat beef,p score, 12s0d to 13s Ewes, per lb 6id to oci. Pork carca ses ,d o lO s 6d to 1 1 s Wethers, do .. 8d to 81 t Sheep, per lb. 7d to 71d Fat calves, d 0.... 5d to Od Rough fat, 4d per lb. BRISTOL SUGAR-JUNE 8. The market has been freely supplied with samples of West India, and where importers have been willing to meet the buyers in price, business has resulted to a fair extent, but at a further decline of 6d to is per cwt. Re finers' produce sells to a fair extent at rather easier prices. Rum dull. .ET—JUNE 8. the close of the mar Yet.) Walls End. e. d. Heugh Hall.. 17 6 Stewart's lB 0 Whamcliffe 17 Framwellgate l7 6 Keiper Grange• • l7 6 Carway a nd Duffryn Malting . 22. 6 Llangennech 2l 0 , 20—Sold, 20. COAL MARK (Prices of Coal per Ton at e.d. _ _ _ Byass's Bebside West Hartley .16 0 Wylam l5 9 West Hartley 16 6 Holywell 15 6 Walls End. iletton.... lB 3 South Kelloe lB 0 8rand0n....... Ships at markel BIRTHS. Wright Child, E sq., of a d aug h ter. CHILD.—On the Bth inst., at Copley Wood, near Halifax Upper Hyde-park gardens, W., the wife of Sir Jahn Lawrence, of a LAt' e nE w N if c e x o .— f j O o n hn the 7th inst., at 2, daugh ter. NOILCETT.—On the 7th inst., at Colebrook-terrace, Bog nor, the wife of Colonel Norcett, C. 8., of a son. RADCLIFFE.—On the 7th inst., at Birch House, Lees, near Manchester, the wife of John Radcliffe, Esq., of a daughter. e MARRIAGES. BAKER—COtiNELL.—On the 7th inst., at St. Nicholas York bate, cith,egßeringt crescent, London, to Caroline Jane, the eldest surviving Brighton Thomas Eld Baker, Esq., of Burton daughter of the late Cornelius Connell, Esq., of WHITMORE— PARTRIDGE.—On the 6th inst., at St. Bar nabas, South Kennington, W. F. Whitmore, Esq., of South Lambeth, to Jane, only daughter of the late W. 11. Partridge, Esq., of tho Treasury, East India House. DEATHS. BULLtR.—On the sth inst., at the Lord Warden Hotel Dover, Major-General Frederic Thorns Buller, late of the Coldsti : eam Guards. CH AFFERS.-0!) the 6th inst., the Rev. Thomas Chaffers, M.A., Fellow of Brazenoze College, Oxford, aged 47. GRAY.—On the 13th April, at Manila, Melland Gray, Esq., formerly of Stratford-grove, Essex. HAiutis._O n the 6th inst., at Updowne, Sandwich, Mary, relict of the late Sir Thomas Noel Harris, K.C.H., aged 60. MTONNELL.—On the 4th inst., Francis M'Donnell, Esq. of Plas Newydd, Usk, Monmouthshire, aged 71. „ WurrmAnsH.--On the sth inst., at the Royal Hospital, Greenwich, John Whitmarsh, Esq., R.N., aged 71. i. , ONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNU, of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county of Middlesex, Saturday, Juno 9, 1860. du, Sei ma Th 130 SA an( pre