The Sun. — London, England, 1829-04-04 00:00:00

se - ions -aiteratiotta in our -laws. Between distant and speculative d a n g ers, and pressing and urgent ones we are now placed ;—it is between these two we are bound to balance, and upon that we take the quotation into eonsideretien. My Lords, after what has fallen from Noble Lords, there can be no question of the necessity of well considering this subject. For me, upon this subject I have been unfortunate enough, as I am afraid I Imre agreed with but few friends. I have been considered as a Liberal.— (Lattghter.)—All the mischief' that now press have been hid upon my shoulders.—(Continued peals of laughter.)—On the other side I have been marked—none had the honour of being more marked as a persecutor and a bigot, because I have always attended to that line of conduct which I have thought would best lead to the peace and tranquillity of the country, and by which I would continue to be guided.—(Cries of Hear, bear.) — I say, my Lords, I had the peat honour of giving to the people of Ireland every privilege that the British Constitution allows, with the exception of a few offices and that of Members of Parliament. I resisted giving them seats in Parliament, and some political offices, and I don't envy the situation of many of those who acted otherwise but am rather proud of my conduct—proud that I was enabled to put the people of Ireland into all situations except seats in Parliament, and some offices; and Ido not envy much this measure, which will at this day, in any way detract from the liberties of the people by taking from them their franchise. My Lords, had the honour, much to the dissatisfaction of some, of doing that, and I shall now continue to do all in my power to give to the Catholics of England that which 1 rad under his late Majesty the power to give to Ireland, and, I believe, if instead of yielding to their turbulence, due attention had been paid to the loyal Catholics of Ireland, the l i anbappy dilemma in which we are placed would net now have been brought about. However, in that dilemma we are new placed, and after the speech of the Noble Duke end hie Majesty's speech there can be no doubt of the urgency of the measure. My Lords, the powers of Go vernment are paralysed. What is the cause of that? The great mischief then is the divisions of the Protestant. of Ireland. That has given power to the Ca tholice, and taken away the power of resistance, In my mind it is necessary for the preservation of the Church, and the exigencies of the State, that the minds of the Irish Protestants should be set at rest.—(Hear.)—From what cause this dilemma arises may by some he considered doubtful. To what cause I shall attribute it in the first instance ts, to the Noble Lord opposite. My Lords, I personally blame no man, but it is became it has tt.en made the source of English and of Irish party that the subject has been continually worked upon, and the public irritated. The next party whom I charge with this are the landholders and gentlemen of Ireland, who, fir election purposes, have sacrificed themselves and the state. My Lords, they have forgot their influence in their own country, and given their legislative powers to the Catho lito.—e Hearn —But there is another clans, and I am afraid I must put myself into it, I mean every Member of nay Lord Liverpool's Government for the last ten years.— It ie therefore, to look to the situation we .tand in, and to givegi„ an account of it. In the first place , let us see what happenedon the appointment, in the first instance, of a gentleman whd entertained those opinions strongly, to be the Minister of that country..--(Hear. ) The Secretary of State for that country ie responsible for the consequences that have taken place, because it is ime poseible for any man to suppose that any Government fa vourable to the Constitution of this country could have placed in the Government of that country agentlemanof his opinions. ',V are bound to kook with fear upon those person; who have thus conducted the business which has brought us lute this dilemma. My Lords, what was the next step? Perhape the Noble Lord opposite (Elden) will admit that it was the appointment of the Attorney General to that country, a person still different in his opinions upon it. The Noble Lord will, perhaps, excuse me for saying, and also a Noble Marquis, a friend of mine, that however I may differ from thew, 1 will do the Catholics the justice to say that they were al ways mare ready and willing to execute the laws than the lawyers and Ministers of this country.—(Great ?righter.)—My' Lords, I have heard a great deal of English common law, and I have heard the; the law against the Association was not rightly executed ; that it the law against the Association was not sufficient, 4 other lava ought to have been made. With that opinion perfectly agree. I hope no one will attribute to me, or any Noble Lord, that for the purpose of keeping office we were actuated by unworthy motives.—(Hear. ) Certainly there was no one who could not see to what these things would lead. But it was hoped that better thins would come, and we were afraid of bringing on the crisis. The crisis did come, and what was the result? The appoint meat of Mr. Canning, and the adoption ,pf those measures by the Government'which have brought Ireland and England into that state in which I agree with the ::';toble Dake, it is necessary there should now be a settlement of the question. My Lords speaking on this subject, I had almost forgotten his Majesq's visit to Ireland. Who were the persons who were present ehert? Who, but those who etc now the Catholic Bishops, who ;te their paraphernalia made en address to his Ma joint. Was that no symptom? could not that lead men to expect something, and, last of 411, the lett-r that was written on the subject. All these things must have led men to expect what was to come to pads. I should have been ashamed, after the statement which had been made by the Noble Lord, to have troubled the House at length, but I cannot forbear mentioning a story of Eraenane.—(Hear, hear, hear, and laughter.)-1 mean a dialogue between Charon and an evil spirit, ta which the latter told him that he must have a larger beet, for there were so many souls coming over the river Styx ie consequence of religious disturbances, that his present bark would lie unable to carry them over. I think that story is peculiarly applicable to the present ante of the country, for the father is now against the son, the brother against tne brother,and the landlord divided from the tenant, and hardly say thing was now voting for them to come Ltd blows. Such is the division of epinion amongst all classes of persons, that I repeat the words, tie landlord is divided from the tenant, end even the fair sex—(iateghter) take part in broils. Every body ie trying to do this for she sake of humanity towards the poor Irish, who are coneorned in this question as much as the people of Mogul. s h o uld chink that the sooner this matter is brought to the contest the better, but it mast be clearly seen that the mischief is with ourselves, and the Roman :Ca tholics of Ireland Lye no disposition to act harshly towards us if we only do 4 , ,.em lustice.—(hlear, bear. j--- It is true we have had a /dila to put down the Catholic Association, but is there any one man who supposes that he can execute that law,—(hear, hear,),4sc I assert that all laws, strong as they are, are carried by pix.b.rt,e ll recollect that I put down the volunteers who had ear tnany years domineered over that country' with a simple proclamation. We then put dawn a more dan gerous association, but then we had the Paetestants of Ireland and the people of Vingiand to support us unani mously. Now, however, you have a part of the Pronotants of Ireland, and nearly the whole of the landed proprietors, aesen tient to this mea sure, became they think it will improve their estates. You have also a large majority of the House 40:nmans in favour of it.—(Hear, 1.,),--I will now ask if, under tliese circumstances, there is any Noble Lord who evil take upon his Herculean shoulders the danger and responsibility of refusing this concessien.—(Hear, hear.) think no men has a right to resist this measure, unless he is prepared to meet that danger and digiculty. lam not only one of those who uppreve of this measure on account of the policy of it, hut from what ought most to operate on the consideration of il, the present benefits to Ireland that will result from it. Whatever the next grievance may be, for there will still be some OUP, it will be long before so large a ma jority:of people of all rant:swill he enlisted Lia their cause. I observe that one of the points in opposition to this measure would have been that of a temporary remedy, but I believe, that if such had been tried, it would have been a useless attempt; and if we • had made up our minds to emancipate Ireland, it never could have been done at a better period than the present; fur if the Catholics can command the Government, the Minister, and the landlord, I must think it better to have a certain number of avowed Roman Catholics in Parliament than to have a great number of secret sup --porters of Catholicism, whom you would not knew how to appreciate, as they were acting under Catholic in- Aluence.--tHear, hear.)—Another part of the objection is that by this measure we destroy the English Church. Now, I think it is the only way to protect it. lam satisfied that when this measure has passed, those Noble Lords who have uniformly supported it will stand up to protect the Protestant interest, and the Church Establishment. I must now offer a few observations on the coronation oath, and I think the ques tion alone stands in this way, whether the words of the coronation oath are technical or constructional, In the first plate, what are we to do supposing them to be technical. The oath is a great law necessary for the ad mission into office; and from the time of Elizabeth I and that oaths for public offices have at all times been subject to continual alteration. Such was the case in the reigns of Charles the Second, of King William, and of Queen Anne ; and with regard to those oaths, it is very curious that in both the Unions with this country, it is specifically stated that they shall continue as they are ; how long ? Why till they are altered.— e Hear, hear.)—We will now come to the construction of them. A person may act as he pleases on the construction 'of them. His 3lsjesty if be thought it right to rob the Church of any one gain, or any established property, in this country, might do so. I contend, however, by this measure yon weaken Catholic power, fur, instead of having 100 '.Members in the Bnitish House of Commons, or, as lately preyed, above 200, the Catholics would not have 20. On this construction of the present measure no Protestant could complain that it affected his rights in this country, and I believe that going apart in such case would he nothing like a breach of the oath, if it would, there is unfoltunattly many honourable men would be guilty of these offenc. Ehere are two classes to which these oaths are applicable, the civil and the military, and I should like to know which of the oaths of these two offices it is allowable to alter. In 1793 the Attorney-General anthorised me to admit officers into the army with an alteration of the path, and within these two years the others have been altered. We are told that this measure is hostile to the opinions of the people of England, and I am certain that if such be the case that it will not have the beneficial effect anticipated. That question, however, can only be decided by a reference to the petitions presented, and we are told that there are 2,000 on the one side and 500 on the other. That, at all events, only shows that there is a great variety of opinion, and, I think, if they were fairly looked into it would be found that one-half at least would be in sup port of this measure. lam certaen that we lessen the power of the Catholics by this Bill, and also that we give additional power to the people of England, and secu rity to their church. (The Noble Lord then continued) The way in which these differences had been accounted for was of the most extraordinary nature. It was said, when Pitt and Fox differed, that one of them was right and that the other was wrong—that whenever they happened to agree why both of them were wrong.—( Loud laughter.) Jest so with the Government to that time, and eo it is with the present Gevernment. My Lords, when it shall be known that this measure has been brought forward and sanctioned by his Majesty, and with the consent of his Majesty's Council, 1 think, I may venture to anticipate a concurrent opinion in the public mind, and that when this Bill shall have passed into a law, the country will reap from it those ime portant benefits which in my judgment it is calculated to confer upon us. Lord SIDAIOUTH,—My Lords, after the very extra ordinary speech of the Noble Lord who has just sat down, I must clai n your Lordships' particular attention to some parts of that speech, which I am bound to notice. My Loids, it . has sometimes happened that when a per son has changed his own opinions, he has found it necessary to resort to the expedient of incul pating others, for the express purpose of keeping up a show of consistency. Whether or not this applies to the Noble si-eed it is not fur me to say, but I confess that I was never more surprised than at bearing the speech of the Noble Lord—nor am I less surprised at the charges which he has made. My Lords, it is jest eight years since a respectable gentleman (Mr. Grant) was appointed to the office of Chief Secretary of Ireland, which at that time was in a very diffracted state. I have already said that Mr. Grant was a must respectable gentleman, and with the utmost admiration for hie talents, I am free to admit that the appointment had not my concur rence; but I yielded to it from the distressing exigency of the oceamien. It i: well known to the Noble Lord that the appointment bad not my approbation. lam compelled to say thus much in reply to the charge of the Noble Lord, and I feel that I am justified in breaking punctilio`, in alms adverting to this circumstance. The auirnaiiversions in whirl the Noble Lord has indulged on my conduct, were, I think, peefectly uncalled for. I will now, my Lords, call your attention to another charge upon which the Noble Lord laid the greatest stress. I mean the reception which was given by hie Majesty to the Boman Cetholic Bishops on: presenting their addeeee after his 3,ls.jeaty'e return to this country ; a question had been put by a bleVe Friend of mine whether there was any objection to his Majesey receiving, Catholic Bishops in the character of Bishops. As it vas a point worthy of consideration, I thought it my duty to consult my revered feiersd‘ , Lord Liverpool, upon it, and that lamented Noblemaer was of opinion that it was impossible to refuse receiving any earfuls of the Catholic Bishops in that character. That, my Lord: a was my own opinion. Every one knows, that they nee 48 mach Bishops, as those of the Protestant Church. Every one kno7s that ardimaion has the same effect in both cases. How then was it possible to advise his Majesty not to receive them in the chereceee in which they presented themselves ? They did not come as a titular Bishop of Limerick, or any other place, but simply as, Bieheps. The Noble Lord has said that they came in their full pa.rapterealia and were received with all the re, pect and deference ,ins to Protestant Bishops.—(Hear, hear.)--I am not very ceetaln as to that fact, but I think it would be rather an awkward ,thima if, when they cleimz an audience of the King in the closet, a se cretary of State, ep any person in attendance on his Majesty wer:. to say, you cannot appear thus, you must go back and pot off your dress. Allow me here, my r,o.arle, to say that the had presented addreesee not members of the Con/wet:Le/Le only to the King in the cisseeS, but on the Throne. ' The next charge of the Noble Lcrei alluded to a. cane in the system of his Majesty's Government, as intimated r ia a letter to my Noble Friend opposite. But I do not find one woe!: Fly that letter to justify such a charge. It has been said that gae Government would be acting unfairly, if, after the !suppressi o n 4 the Ca tholic Aeedeietion, this measure of relief was net pas.trci. It should be ree o l.!ected, however, that in the King's speech the recommendation Ac parliament was to take into consideration the whole condition ef Ireland. How, I will ask, bas an opportunity been afforded in; such consideration? Whet assurance have your Lordships had that this measure will pacify that ecaantry,. I confess, my Lords, that I, for one, would be spay to decide per a eines .t.ion of such vital importance, without Niles and beaear informteriya ;Ilan that contained in the speech of thg Noble Duke. ItLy ords, what enquiry has takes 'lase;.? What do we know abont the condition of Irelendit et least, what do we know of is fecea a that au thentic source to wiiic t e we are bound to look for infoe rnazion? I should have thought before the introduction of any measure of relief, the recommendation of his Majesty in his speech to Parliament ellettld have been complied with, and that the condition of Ireland, the ohjeet to which the attention of Parliament was peculiarly directed, would have formed the subject of enquiry in a Committee of the whole House. Nothing of this sort, my Lords, has been done, and I am afraid that your Lordships will get no fur ther information upon the subject than that which has been given by the Noble Duke. The Noble Lord then continued he did not expect to be able to say any thing to induce some of their Lordships to depart from the course which they seemed determined to adopt, though he should sue treed in convincing them that the course was fraught with difficulties, embarrassments, and dangers of all sorts to the Constitution. But what was the plea upon which they were called upon to pass this measure. The influence of the Catholic Association was talked of—its terrors magni fied' Far his part, he should be disingenuous indeed, to withhold from Ministers the praise of sincerity. He had himself been a member of administration, but he never affixed distrust to the motives of his colleagues who differed in opinion from him.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was but fair to say, that he believed no set of men could be influenced by greater regard for the Constitution of this country than his Majesty's present Ministers were.--(Hear.)—lt did not follow, however, that he was of necessity to take for granted that all their measures were of the most judici ous kind. Quite the contrary, respect was one thing, con fidence another—but a blind and indiscrimirotting re liance upon the infallibility of any set of men, was a de gree of self-denial to which he could not pretend. What then wax hie opinion of the present measure? Did he think that under the present conjuncture of affairs in Ire land nothing ought to be done ? Certainly not. He agreed that that country was, and had ever been, in a condition to require the closest attention of the Members of Govern ment, and no man was lest; disposed than he to withhold a remedy, when a proper remedy was pointed out._ But whence came this organization—whence this diselem berment of the parts of the body social and politic ? Were its cause to be found in the misconduct of administrations, the errors of Government—the abuses of law? No, the evils of Ireland were a laxity of rule, a too great mode ration in authority—a connivance at the proceedings o agitators and disturbers. The Catholic Association was the fruitful parent of all these evils—to that fertile source were all the grievances to be traced. He would ask, for it really was necessary to ask—what was the Catholic Association.—what were its attributes--what its character? Was this the Association which had been already de nounced as the disturber of the public peace in Ireland—as the proscribed of the peaceful citizens of that country, of the King's Ministers, and of the two Houses of Parliament?—(Hear.) Was it decent, then, to adduce the existence of such a body as an argument in the discus sion of any great question? Their Lordships had been solemnly told, in the Speech from the Throne, in a former Session, that this Association was dangerous to the public peace—that it was at variance with the Constitution. Was it not upon these grounds, and these only, that the Bill for its suppression was asked—that it was passed ? The evils of Ireland were then traced to this cause, and the suggestion was, that by removing the cause you destroy the effect. Why not do the same now? In what respect had things altered in Ireland, that the same prescription for the malady, (which had not changed its character) might not be effectual ? But they were told that things had changed—that it was no longer safe to put down the Association, as an integral measure. Nay, it was said, that so affectionate was the House of Commons become of this favourite body, that it would never consent to its suppression by law, unless some other measure, by way of indemni fication, was made congenial with that extinguish ment. What, then, were we conic to that pan, that conces sion was the only basis of our legislation? Were we in future to rays no law, without first throwing a sop to the people of Ireland, in order that they would be pleased to con descend to submit to our Imperial legislation ? This was the language used by some of the supporters of this measure--others thought that it was not enough for the re turn, which they affected to say was paid for it—others, that require no terms. Ought the forty-shilling freeholders of Ireland to be disfranchised. To the first he should say, that ha was unwilling to believe that the House of Com mons would so stultify itself, as having a few years ago pissed a Bill for the suppression of the Catholic Associa tion, and thereby acknowledged the principle, it would now refuse to adopt the sasne measure. To the others, that this was in fact no price at all—because, looking at all the vari.me circumstances under which the Catholic Government got the elective franehise, it would be seen that it was not contemplated by the Legislature to give them that extent of political rights which they had since used and abused ; what a Noble Earl had said upon a former occasion in his place, was unhappily but too true, that the use which the Catholic freeholders had made of the boon of 1795, was a good sample of the manner in which they would hereafter prevent any further con cessions which might be made to them--namely, to the advancement of their political power, and the overthrow of the Church and Constitution. The predictions which had been made of the effect of that measure, while it was under discussion in the Irish Parliament, was soon after fearfully realized by the result.----( Hear, hear, hear.)—lt was then said, however, that the effect of the measure would be to cause a splitting of freehold* —a minute subdivision of property by the landlords—au ultimate encouragement to early and improvident mar riages, and in fact to every thing which would tend to foster idleness and improvidence.—(Hear.)—Had these predictions been belied—had they not been fulfilled to the letter in the state of Ireland ? The most eminent men of that day—the Lord Ciare—and the then Speaker of the Irish House of Commons, Mr. Foster, were amongst the great opponents of this measure. They deprecated in the strongest terms the power which had been given to theCatho - lie freeholders. He was of opinion that the measure to which he confessed he brought his mind with reluctance to agree, was justified by the circumstances and by the evidence which was offered to Parliament some years ago. He (Lord gidmouth) should not therefore oppose the measure for the raising the Elective Franchise, as teactieeeeed with the others, and so far from throwing obettcles in its way he should give it his warmest support. But he must be understood as not including in that pledge of support the other measures by which that Bill was ac companied. What, then, was to be done? Were we to r 5 main as we were, or make a change, cost what it might ? This question lead hegn asked in the other House, but to this he had not received any eetisfectery answer. What the Right Hon Gent. (Mr. Peel) was unable to ea4ve, he (Lord S.) would offer to explain. Better, far better, he sheuld say, remain as we are, than make unworthy sacrifices. (Chee; ; ; , ---If we had a chance of continuing to remain as we are, the way to a e c9rieplish that was not to recede, not to give fresh power to our enemies. 8 y 7 . .t admit that some thing must be done—did it follow that this was ei.a e tly the e tei; which we ought to take? Was this a remedy for the admitted eviis of Ireland—was it not a confusion of terms to call it so? It had .ot 3_ symptom of a reenedrielmeaaere. The evils of Ireland were long seren:::- td to be pay e ety, igmrance, and bigotry.—(lfear.) tl .4"hich of these would Catholo_ emapcipaiion remove ? Rid the people—the poor benighted peopte- , of ti r e tram els of priesteraft : that was the true and statesmanlike Gurnane ,erirai cipation. These evils were, it was now allowed, of very lui t g sta:dipg. In the language of an enlightened writer, these eviis were pa v,;..1 - 17, depression, want of education, the relaxation of industry, the want of e#coucgement—the want of proper protection for the poor, want of --,-, t - pathy in the landlords— the distress arising' from the necessity f paying tithes to _ ll Church, whilst they had their 6wn clergy . Lo aumT , 0re.7 ....,. 0 4 8 Out of proportion to th e i r means--=H wata r t,t . the necessa,r i efi of ii(e, alit abase all, a distrust in pt justice.--( Cheers. e—ieetnoee O t ero g th r e ou a n t i o n f istr n complaint then,:make it the landlord's interest to aatend to the wants of his tenantry, cheek rapine, pre vent violence, seed put an end to misrule. These were the first duties of a gibe, considerate, and I beneficent Legislature. The next, to give the people edu- catiorn—(Hear,)_lfueh had been done in this way of late years, under the Administrations - of Lords Liverpool and his Noble Friend—much had been done for the education of Ireland. The 'powers of the Grand Jury had been enlarged—beneficial changes had been made in the - Courts of -Justice' in Ireland—ronstabulary force had been established, and whet- : joie* of no lees im portance, justice was now iri optn courts in Ireland. Who could deny that the result of all this was not an in creased confidence in the people of that country in the ad ministration of justice?—(Hear.)—Bat this was not all, He might allude to other measures,—the review of the whole state of the magistracy in that country—a better arrangement of tithes. This measure alone was sufficient to stamp a value upon an Administration which con ferred so great and so important a boon upon Ireland; other suggestions equally beneficial had been made by other administrations, though not unfortunately carried into effect. He alluded to the suggestion of appointing Lord Lieutenants of the counties in Ireland as they were here; it could not be denied that there was wanting some such responsible officers who would be answerable fur the recom mendation of Magistrates, and whose business it would be to punish any delinquency that took place in the due admi nistration of justice in that country. Looking then at the situation of things in Ireland, and judging by the rules that governed human nature in the abstract, he should say that the true benevolence of legislation was not in the granting of Catholic emancipation ; but in the carry ing into effect the unneessary suggestions which had been made by former Administrations. Noble Lords might then with sincerity put their hands on their hearts, and congratulate themselves on the state of things which they had produced. They might then indeed realize the picture which they had drawn in their imaginations, which, as applied to this Bill, had no solid materials for its construction ; they might then figure to themselves the agitations now so dangerous to autho ' rity removed—(hear)—the condition of their tenants improved ; the value of their rents enhanced, and more freely paid ; confidence increased, or at least the terrors reduced in the mind of the labourer that the fruits of his exertions would not be his own property. The great grievance of Ireland was distress, arising from the want of food.—(Hear, hear.)—The remedy for that was acknow ledged on all hands to be the influx of capital, but by a strange round-about mode of reasoning the mea sure of Catholic Emancipation, which after all must influence only remotely and circuitously the sources of capital were said to be the means of curing those evils. Surely when public confidence in :the administration of the law was increased, Noble Lords must admit that that was pro tanto a palliative for the evils of Ireland. In crease that confidence then, give them an equal and im partial system of law ; educate the people, stimulate their industry ; that was the true way to legislate for Ireland, and not the measure now under consideratin.—(Cheers.)—Re acknowledged being disappointed of securities in this Bill ; he thought it would only tend to increase the dis satisfaction of the Protestant population, and by no means give satisfaction to a portion of the Catholic community. He in his conscience believed that the wiser course was now to resist encroachments when we were better able to doso than at a future time, when we would be in a worse condition to resist them. Generous minds must be grati fied at seeing one's fellow-subjects restored to the full enjoy ment of their rights, but there were higher interests which must be consulted before one yielded to the kindlier, and therefore, perhaps, weaker suggestions of one's feelings. The Noble Lord concluded by reading a por tion of a letter in which the author recom mended that the wise examples of our ancestors ought to be followed, who had never given up solid substances for theoretical speculations, and that like them we ought to endeavour to gainehe confidence of our friends, and the respect of our enemies, by maufuhy hazarding every thing in defence of that fabric of the Constitution which had been handed down to us sanctified by such high authority, and sanctified by such long experience.—(Cheers.) Lord WESTMORELAND rose to explain, I think I could not say more, observed the Noble Lord, to satisfy the Noble Lord who has just sat down, than that I considered myself as much concerned in these transactions, as I consi dered him ,that whether the measures were right or wrong, I was equally right or equally wrong with himself; therefore it is quite impossible I could mean any reflection, and I beg to assure the Noble Lord that I most distinctly disavow it. Lord LIVERPOOL said—ify Lords, I wish to make a few obervations with respect to the motives that have actuated me on the present occasion. This is rendered the more incumbent upon me by the remarks of the Noble Lord who has just risen in explanation upon the administration of may late lamented brother. The Noble Lord in the course of his remarks has alluded to circumstances which have arisen, not momentarily, not from yesterday, but from a long course of esents, which have been urging on the consideration of the great measure of to-day, and the things which have now been brought under our view bring to light circumstances that prove, if the Noble Duke will al low me to say so, that he possesses information at this time which at former periods he was deficient in. —(Hear, hear, hear, hear.)--On these points I shall take the liberty of saying that for twenty years I have had the honour of a seat in the Lower House, I have uniformly been against admission to the Roman Catholics. But, my Lords, I do not see so distinctly as some enlightened Noble Lords do, the dangers which are likely to ensue from the admission of Roman Catholics into power. On the other hand I uniformly thought the carrying of this question would not so immediately produce that which its warmest .upporters are anxious to attribute to it.—(Hear, hear.) — But, my Lords, at last I have thought, and thought rightly I believe, that that circumstance has been greatly produced by. the carrying of this measure, for it will be followed by other measures producing still greater ad vantages. My Lords, what makes me more of this opinion is, that the circumstances which the Noble Lord mentioned, I mean particularly the circumstance of a divided Cabinet, I do not enter into the circumstances, but it plainly ap pears by what the Noble Lord said just now, that much difference prevailed in the appointment of the Secretary, he having evidently made it appear how difficult it was to make an appointment that would produce entire satisfaction. My lords, having been myself connected with public affairs I its sure that great anti enormous must those diffi culties be in the time of a divided cabinet. What, my !Ards, was the consequence ? Almost always, when a question with respect to Ireland was agitated something occurred to put a stop to its discussion. If Thad arisep in the spirit with which the Noble Lord rose, perhaps I might lieve addressed the Hpuse in the same feelings of irritation. I believe that dui ing the 14 years Lord Liverpool presided over the Administration he did all in his power that he considered would be beneficial to the empire, with out reference to any private feelings whatever, or to the opinions of those who did not accord with him. In saying this, my Lords, I think I hare a right to assert that it is due to his memory, I lead almost said to his great name.—(Hear, hear.)—l am extremely glad to have had the opportunity given fur explaining: Ido not mean to enter at lafge into the subject. This question has been discessed by many Learned Virelates with great force, and great learning, riled with that I shall leave it to the+o, ;ate fled as I am, that there is no danger to the Irish Clergy by the meaeu s e gow to be proposed. lyith respect to the Church of England, it stands on too great an eminence, it is guarded by too ,ieeene a bulwark ever to be effected by a me I sure tins g I wanted any proof of this, I have only to look at the petitions that nave Mien maid upon your Lordships' table, not t'alting into ceiiislderatioti i ta g ! rarn7r in which sonic of them have been up, but looking to them for the puti.4e of seeing the 4ispo,sition of of Englan4. In them you view the e fte l Church of England end the solidity of 15nleze yqu see gll these affection, and feel ingsbroke down, it is impossible to consider the Church can be in danger. I wished, my Lords, for an opportunity Of explaining myself. If I have shown to your Lordships that Lord Liverpool's station during these periods was one of great difficulty—dud ha was obliged to consider the cir eumstances and feelitigt.o- 4 various men—l have satisfied myself on that point. - 'sie . other point of declaring my self manfully and plainly a supporter of this measure, and its desirable effects likely to be produced from it, I have met with great pleasure. Lord TENTERDEN and Lord F..tuxuam rose at the same time. Lord TENTERDEN addressed the House. My Lords, it will not be expected from a person in my situation that I should express an opinion, without endeavouring to make known the grounds upon which that opinion is founded, consistently with the law of the land. Some Noble per sons in the blouse, and many who speak and write on this subject, I mean those who please to denominate themselves the friends of religious liberty, if, by assuming that title they mean to convey that those who differ from them are not friendly to religious liberty, they are greatly mistaken. Every man may state his opinion—he may state the mo tives on which he acts—and I will yield to no one in ask ing and claiming to myself the right of being deemed a friend to civil and religious liberty. I was educated, my Lords, in the Church of England. I have all my life admired its principles, and I should be among the most ungrateful if I had not done so. My esteem for that church has grown stronger and stronger with my years, my esteem for that church is founded not merely upon the purity of its doctrines, not merely upon consideretion of its religious views and duties, great and important as they are; but in the opinions I have entertained, and still entertain, that the Protestant chureh is gore favoured with civil and religious establishments than prevail in any country whatever. My Lords, there is no ' church so moral as this. Can we then betray it my Lords? Others may betray it if they think proper, but I cannot, on looking at the present measure, think that there is that in it which is calculated to over throw the Protestant Church. My Lords, when I find the Clergy of the Catholic Church assuming the name and credit and dignity of the diocese which is only known to the law, ran I come to any other conclusion ? Is it right ? I will not say that the Popish hierarchy, should be suffered to do so ? Or, is it likely that, I will not say the Popish hierarchy, but any hierarchy under such circumstances would be content to leave others in the enjoyment of those rights and privileges to which they believe themselves fairly entitled ? Is it not natural that there should exist in their minds an anxious desire to obtain a restitution of those privileges ; and where that desire exists, is it not natural that they should adopt such means as might in the end lead to such a result.—(The Noble Lord here became inaudible, when we again heard him, he proceeded.) My Lords, these are the points which have influenced me to oppose the present Bill. My Lords, it is contended by the Noble and Learned Lords who have addressed your Lordships, and for whose talents I have the highest respect, that those Acts which were passed at the revolution did not contemplate the perpetuity of the exclusion of the Catholics. Differing as I do in opinion with those Noble and Learned Lords, it is due to them and your Lordships that I should explain the grounds on which I have formed my opinion. My Lords, your attention has been called to the Act passed at the Accession, and no allusion was made to oaths of an ulterior date. It was said that the exclusion of the Catholics was no older than Charles the Second, and that it was then brought on by the most wilful misrepresentation of the Roman Catholics, My Lords, this is not true ; it is true as far as regards the admission of Catholics to Parliament; but it is not true as regards their capability of holding official situations. By the Act of Elizabeth an oath was required to be taken by all classes of his Majesty's subjects. It was true that oath was abrogated atthe accession of William, but another substituted, and there was no very material difference hetweeen them. By that oath, the p arty taking it was required to swear, that no foreign Person, Prelate, State, or Potentate, has or ought to have power, command, jurisdiction, civil or ecclesiastical, within these realms.—(Hear, hear, hear. ) I admit, my Lords, that notwithstanding this oath, many Catholics did take office, but what construction they put upon the oath, I know not ?—(Hear, hear. ) By the sth Elizabeth a similar oath was required to be taken by all Members of the House of Commons, but not by Members of the House of Peers, it being expressly stated that her Majesty had sufficient confidence in the Members of that Houselto enable her to dispense with an oath. Thus matters stood until that oath was adopted containing the words:l have quoted. That *path, as I have stated already, was evaded, but by what means I know not. But I rather think that some way was discovered to satisfy the Catho lics, and this suggestion was the more likely, for your Lordships must be aware that the Pope has been always fertile in expedients to relieve his flock from all obligations, except those which they owe to him and his church. An Act passed in the reign of William,:ordahting an oath, entitled the oath of allegiance, and this in conjunction with that passed by the statute of 25 Charles 11. by all officers, civil and military, and by all Members of both Howes of Par liament. If your Lordships look to the Act of William, called a declaration of the rights and liberties of the people, you will not find it there laid down that these oaths are to be taken for ever ; and it is right that your Lord ships should find them in such a declaration. But that declaration was not to be taken alone : it was to be considered in conjunction with all the other Acts passed by the same Parliament. In the time of the Convention, the two Houses deliberated on the 22d January, on the SOO! the Convention went to the Prince of Orange, and on the 13th February that Convention became a Par liament, and so continued till it was dissolved. It became so in fact after the declaration of rights was presented to King William. Their first Act was, that the new oath to which I have alluded should be taken, and the de claration subscribed by all future Parliaments. Their next Act was, that of regulating the Coronation oath, and they enacted, that that Oath should be taken by all the future Kings and Queens of England. I ask, my Lords, whether there is any difference between enact ing that every Member of either House shall take these oaths, tied that they shall be taken by future Parliaments. —The question is, what was the intention of Parliament at the time. If we judge by the situation, it is clear there is no difference, but that the intention was that the Oath of Allegiance and Supremacy also should be taken by the Members of all future Parliaments. The Noble Lord then alluded to the Act of Settlement, and argued that that also contemplated the perpetuity of the laws then made relative to Catholics.—My Lords,' I will now draw your attention to another Act, called the Declara tion of Rights in Scotland. By that Act no Catholic can take a seat in either House, or, to use the 1 , 70;(,s of the Act itself, " bear office therein.".—(Hear, hear. ) The Noble Lord reed a pact of the provisions of the Act, arid then continued'—the resolution that is embodied in the Act of Parliament presented to the Prince and Prin cess of Orange, on the 13th of February, was made 1)411 of the Act itself. The Act then pi - accede with its enact ments, taad is its enactments it is trite you do not find it ,tated that these oaths shall be continued, but you do Lind a provision—a provision for the placing of the Crown upon the head of King William, and with painciplee that . shall be entertained by hie deeaendaos, having resolved that the Pathl shall be taken, and having resolved that certain persons shall wear the Crown, and when you come to find that by former Acts it had been especially provided that these oaths should be taken. and 0,:a1 theme had been no prezaoas eantatmant that Ail:tam ant Mary should be King and Queen of this country, it seents to me that is conclusive. All that was necessary then to be done was done, and any thing else zserif ial Iq 1,44 assn 04/i40. -- ( ri!aft . kraf• T,occhhiips aye toI say that l'oese iiss' ere npt to be regarded as having been established with a view to permanenay, bec‘tas yott - do not I find them in the Bill of 4ifehte, that is saying, the f t 110 man does not mean to do a thing because he did it once, mid ao notice was taken of it. I shall now trouble mire I..or:(l,bies with a few words op clf VinAon with Scotland. It was said with great triumph that it appears by the Act that the oaths shall be taken until Parliament shall otherwise direct. Now that certainly is part of the Act, but if your Lordships will read the whole of the Act that has been alluded to by - a Noble Lord that bas addrose you, you will find that after the articles of Union we e agreed upon there was an Act for settling the manner 11 ' which Peers should be elected to serve in Parliauwest' (Hear, hear.)—That Act is net forth in the Act 9 ! William, and it is declared that Act 49.11, be te s valid as if had been engrossed and made part OP? Act of William.—(Hear.).Then what dose the-4c l contain ? It contains this, that none shall be eapila" elect or be elected for any of the said seats (Houses e d Commons and Lords) but such as are 21- :years of at e complete, and Protestants, e.ecluding all Papists, or such ors being suspected of Popery, ,5-c. Now, therefore, WY Lords, it appears, that taking the whole of that Act to gether, it shows that it is to be considered those wh" ) by the Crown represent the three kingdow e shall be Protestants. How incumbent is it then, b e fore your Lordships proceed to overthrow an Act, that you should know distinctly what it is. My Lords, the prose:it measure proposes to repeal this Act for the sake of the peace and tranquillity of Ireland, and this country. Novi if I could suppose that this measure would have that effect it should have my cordial support—(Hear)—but I a m II no means able to bring myself to take that view of the ms?' sure. The danger of abrogating lamer lewd, yOur Lordshir' ought to be aware is always great, and before such : a -etel ) is taken, a sufficient protection ought to be provided. .1 admit that there is a prospect before your Lordships gal' culated to baffle the firmest mind and the stoutest heart-- language which has already been made:use of, and stronger than which I cannot use. The questionis will this mea sure retard it ? My Lords, I have already alluded to th e hierarchy and the Protestant Establiehment of this country , which I feel bound to regard with the highest - bittern. 1 3 f, what means Ireland has been brought into a state which in a very few months has brought a change in the minds of many individuals, Ido not know. I know not by what this change has taken I place, or by whose neglect, or by what improper encouragement, this state of things ha' been brought about, or by what apathy it has been permitted to go on ;it is vain fur me to enquire into it. If, as a lawyer, I were called upon to judge, I must say, that nothing I have heard has been:sufficieat to satisfy my mind that proper steps have been taken ; speeches have been made dal after day, published and widely circulated, sparing neither the orators, nor the names of the living or the dead, decla ring that they will not only have seats in Parliament, bet will root out, before they have done, that pestilent heresy they have found to exist opposed to their views.—(Hear.) If your Lordships could not prevent meetings, you could at least have prevented speeches; if you could not prevent speeches, you could at least have prevented their public tion. Therefore, whether the present measure will have the effect of putting an end to the aggravated state of things at present is the question. Whether it will satisfy the minds of all who have taken an interest in the subject? My Lords, lam most decidedly of opinion it will not, and therefore I must vote against the measure , which I shall do with great sorrow, considering it will be against the views of those whom I ha re heard so learnedly and so powerfully argue the cause. My Lords, I take it to be the duty of all not to relieve ourselves from danger without the prospect of being able to better our condition, and by this measure I really cannot perceive that we shall have the slightest chance of so doing. If we pass this measnro we shall be much leasable to ree:st the attempts of those WO by the measure we are giving in the true sense of the word political power to, and who have long been making attempt , ' against our existing laws, than we are at present. I hopes my Lords, I may be mistaken in nay views of the measure should it pass into a law, but in ray opinion, should it pass, the time will soon come when your Lordships Wig find the sentiments I entertain of it will be realized. I Earl GREY—My Lords, in discussing a question so often discussed by persons more popular than myself, in which I have on repeated occasions found myself cow" pelled, in the course of my duty, to offer to you a state ment of the motives that influenced my conduct and feeling, on this occasion, however, I can add nothing to what before stated—still less to what has been stated by others. I most certainly feel that an apology is due to you >n bringing myself forward to your notice. In the next place, I must state to your Lordships that I rise with coo' siderable fear that something like preinnuption should be I imputed to me, if I ventured to differ from a Noble Lord , (the Lord Cilia* Justice of England), who hu rested the greatest part of the arguments he has the , addressed to your Lordships, with statements of law' with which he is necessarily more acquainted , which he has studied more and with which he has a Kw" perfect knowledge than I can possibly have—therefore it might be like presumption in me to offer a difference ° f opinion. A sense of duty, however, my Lords, s induce" me to state what my opinions are, and even unlearned as am I will venture, against the judgment of the Noble spa Learned Lord, to offer the views I have taken upon• the subject. Indeed, lam nut sure that we game to very different conclusion ; for the Noble Lord, a fter having gone through an historical tale of the Oaths of Supremacy and Allegiance downwards from the time of Queen Elizabeth, in the Bill of Rights, and also in the Bill of Union, the Noble Lord comes: to the coo ' elusion that he admits the power of Parliauzeo t to abrogate these Acts. Nay, he goes further—he saY ° that if this individual measure can be proved to him like l Y to produce the objects its promoters represent, it is am!' lateclto produce the peace and happiness of Ireland, then t hat he himself will give it his support. My. Lords; I feel my self therefore under the necessity of abstaining from enter ing into that debate which I have so often e utered into on former occasions, namely, whether the Act • of Union and the Act of the Revolution have, bee n made so irrevocable, that notwithstanding any induce' went of policy or expediency, it is utterly insposeible for us without a breach of the contract. which ex ists between the King and the people to make the slightest alteration in those laws.—(Hear.)---The Noble Lerd. trust does not maintain that proposition; t o w i o nt then are we to addrees:ourselvee? Why my:L or d set h at is the days of "Elizabeth it was thought neceseery to guetd against Popery. I admit that to the Nehle li e oe ‘ l, b u t i p . ti,Q time of Charles the Second it was thought necessary, by circumstances of the country, under some apprehensions of danger to enact other !awe for the exclusion of the Papists and to guard the religion of this country. lam alp' ready to admit that, under the same impression, at the passing of the Bill of Rights and the Union with Scotland , Parliament did proceed to enact civil provisions. That I am ready to admit. But the question we have to con' eider this day is, whether, these enactments under thee 4 circumstances, and with these views, are in the present state of circumstances under which we are to disco" ' them, so binding upon tia, so precluded from applr ing the rernadiee, that we think them most likely , to prevent the dangers with which we are threatened , Now I certainly have derio t ; my life uniformly inippoited the principles of civil and religious liberty. The - ,N0,1$ Lord might have spared what I did not evqect t t~ hear from him, ft sort of reproach to tie; eaen4ers of tbi House of arrogating exclusively to themselves that •••• fon ciple. My Lords, I arrogate nothitus .... 2; believe I BPI a true friend to relkit'Ua libertyl have shown mys e lf to b e so for thirty years, and a friend to these 'Which at last arc likely to b eaiyiect into effect. But I arrogate nothing to myself, in tilt': character. Ido not pretend there mar I hot be others as truly friee,de of religious liberty as myself. but who, frpAl solae feelings, cannot hyi ng th emse l ves to I agree ta the proposition now brought forward. Now, I w ill eebscrihe to what the Noble Lord has said of the Church of Lugland. lam a member of that Church believe in its superior doctrine and purity of 45, ' plea—l believe time proposed meas , Arq 71;1 .e'eer have the ' effect of endangering the churcia e —and I believe it will be a measute that will be found in its effects considerably to strengthen and support it. I believe the true principles of , that Church, if rightly acted upon, are favourable to religious liberty. Ilut, if the Noble Lord chooses to re flect on me as arrogating to myself the liberty of a friend in contradistinction to others, I beg to :mare hist I