The Sun. — London, England, 1858-04-20 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.--(YESTERDAY.) The LoRD CH,OICIILLOR took hie seat on the woolsack at five o'cleck. The Earl of WICKLOW gave notice that in the event of the Oaths Bill being read a second time, he should move the omission of the clause which denies that any foreign potentate bath, or ought to have, temporal or spiritual jurisdiction in this realm. THE SEIZURE OF THE CAGLIA.RI. Lord WENSLEYDALE inquired whether, in the pre sent state of the question arising out of the capture of the Cagliari, the Government would have any objection to adopt the course he had recommended before the re cess, namely, to take the opinion of the Privy Council OD the subject The Earl of MALMESBURY said be was obliged to the noble and learned lord for asking the question, as it gave him an opportunity of stating how the case at present stands. The case divides itself into two parts— the first part, with respect to the detention of the two engineers who happened to be on board at the time the ship was captured. The law officers of the Crown who were consulted by the present Government on the legality or lillegality of the detention of the two men were unanimously of opinion that suchdetention was illegal, and on account of the hardships endured by the men her Majesty's Government might demand cornpen• aation from the Government of Naples, and acting on that suggestion he had addressed a communication to M. Carafa, inal:ing that demand for the suffering en dured by the men during their captivity. With respect to tie second part of the question, viz., the legality or illegality of the capture of the Cagliari, he had only Within the last few hours received the report of the gen tlemen to whom the question had been referred. Two . .. , re ‘ of opinion that the ca pture was illegal, and the _L thought the capture legal. Under these cir 31;:astances the Government felt it impossible to take those 1Z Ong measures desirable on that part of the question. iithout pledging himself to anything, he considered the suggestion of the noble and learned lord worthy of the most attentive consideration ; and, under all the circum he was precluded from giving a decided answer. stances, The law officers consulted by the present Government with respect to the legality of the confiscation of the steamer, had declared that such a step would be illegal. He was not then in a position to say whether any official notice of the condemnation had been sent to the Government of Sardinia. E tri GRANVILLE asked whether there would be any objection to lay on the table a copy of the com• munication sent to M. Carafal The Earl of MALMESBURY said the subject was at present under consideration, and the production of the documents would be unusual. SALE OF POISONS. Lori CAMPBELL asked the intention of the Go. vernment with respect to the introduction of a bill for regulating the sale of poison ! The Earl of DERBY said if the Government saw the slightest chance of passing such a measure they would introduce a bill. THE PATI?,TOTIC FUND. The Duke of NORFOLK then rose to move for a number of returns connected with the administration of the Patriotic Fund. These returns, which were very voluminous embraced the correspondence of the council th . 4;..rtes of persons who had been relieved, and the whose proceedings connected with the administration cf the it.nd. The noble duke made a short statement in moving for these returns, and said that his object was to bring the question before the house on a future occa sion. _ . Lord COLCHESTER explained that the origin of the motio❑ was a belief or suspicion that an attempt at pro selytism had been made in connection with the adminis tration of the fund. He repudiated, on the part of the commissioner., all 'such suspicion. The Earl of DERBY said there was no objection to give the noble duke all the iuf )rmation he required. He would, however, suggest to the noble duke to go person ally to the office and inspect fur himself. The returns which the noble duke had moved for would make five or six volumes. Earl GRANVILLE advised the noble duke to yield to this appeal. The Duke of NEWCAS'FLIC ale) recommended the noble duke to go to the office and inspect the books and proceedings himself. He defended the administration of the commissioners. Lord ST. LEONARDS also defended the commis sioners. He said there was not a single Roman Catholic child in a school that it ought not to be in. He knew that Protestant children had been sent to Roman Catho lic schools. The attack on the commissioners by Arch• bishop Cullen had been amply answered and refuted. Even Mr. Ball, one 0' the commissioners, who was a Roman Catholic said there was no foundation fir them. The Duke of NORFOLK said he would go personally to the offices, and it he convinced himself that every thing was right, he would be the first to apologise. A portion of the rr tarns was then ordered. CUSTOMS BILL. This bill passed through committee. The house adjourned at 25 minutes past sir. HOUSE OF COMMONS.--(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKEZ took the chair at 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following private were read a third time and passed —A berdeen Water, Folkestone Water, Liverpool Exchange, Lidteard and Looe Union Canal Company's Itaiway, Merthyr Tydfil Water, and Selkirk and Gala shiels Rail% ay. The following private bills were read a second time : Acton's Naturalization Act Amendment and Limerick and Foynes Rail way. CO NIMISSIONS IN THE ARMY. Mr. LAURIE asked 9e Secretary for War, whether the officers of the army ought to be subjected to pay ment of a tax upon their commissions granted by her Majesty ? General PEEL said there was no tax on the commis lions, but there was a stamp. NEW MEMBER. Mr. LEPROT took the oaths and seat for the Uni ♦ersity of Dublin i❑ the room of the Right Hon. Joseph Napier, elevated to the Lori Chancellorship of Ireland. TELEGRAPH COMMUNICATION FROM INDIA. Sir W. FRAZER gave notice that he should, on an early day, call attention to the &fictive information conveyed from India by the electric telegraph, especially wi.b reference to the names of officers and others killed in action, t‘c. REAL PROPERTY COMMISSIONERS. Mr. HEADLAM asked the Secretary for the Home DTartment whether it was the intention of the Govern ment, during this cession, to introduce a bill to carry into eff ct the recommendations of the Real Property Commi“sioners Mr. WALPOLE said he shculd take occasion on as early day to state the views of the Government thereon. THE BUDGET. The house having resolved itself into a committee of ways and means, Mr. FITZROY in the chair, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose to make his financial statement. He said,—Sir, since the right hon. gentleman the member for Radnor explained in committee the ways and means he intended to pro vide for the service of the year just terminated a very great change has taken place in the condition of this country, and I am sorry to say also in the well-being of the people. At the commencement of the year 1857, and indeed during all the preceding years, our exports had continually and considerably increased. The returns of our exports were favourable—l might say highly favour able—and, although a high rate of discount prevailed generally at that period, it was no obstacle to the com mercial enterprise of the country. But towards the e nd of the year 1857 this prospect of continued prosperity was clouded and disturbed. The American panic acted very distressingly upon our own commercial condition. At that time there was a monetary and mercantile crisis which, whether we look at the number of those who failed or the amount for which they failed, has not in se verity been exceeded in even our commercial history. The minimum rate of discount in the month of Novena her was 10 per cent. That rate prevailedalmost through out December. At the very close of the year the rate Was 8 per coot. ; at -the end of January 4 per cent. When I acceded to office the rate was that which now prevails —3 per cent. The effect of this commercial disturbance and distress was very great upon the revenue. It is a Very significant circumstance that at the end of the first three quarters of the financial year—viz., the 31st of Dec. last—the judicious and temperate estimate of my right 'non. predecessor was not even fulfilled, but strange to say, during the last quarter of the financial year, from the 31st of Dec. to the eed of March—in the great items of Customs, Excise, and Stamps it was not only fulfilled but exceeded by (speaking in round numbers)l,soo,o oo /. I am extremely unwilling on these occasions to trouble the committee unnecessarily with statistical details; but I have here ma slight memorandum of the efLct of the monetary crisis upon the income of the country, which they will perhaps permit me to real. The quarter ending the 31st Dec., 1857, compared with the similar quarters of the preceding year, shows a total ilscrea , e is Customs, Excise, and Stamps, of 766 0001 ; but the quarter ending the 31st March, 1858, shows a very dif ferent result compared with th e c orres p on di ng quar t er o f th e pr!cediug year, namely, as increase of 1,144,0001. i t: tlaoGe stems% Ai I ar il upon this topic, perhaps the com mittee will think teis the best opportunity to state th offect is of the i nontaL., , t . i . e t,7isii upon i our expert trade. Ex pert. altnost 1857. In the nine moet ' l eg I off in the last quarter of leelnding the 30th Septembi r, 1857, the increase in the declared value of our exports, compared with the corresponding period of the preceding year, was 12!, per cent. In the 10' w e n i ths i ending the 31 st of OctOr2er that increase bad deei? cant. 1:71 the 11 months en di ng t h c , IsoxitaZtlYberl our exports, had decreased 8 per cent., and in the 12 months ending the 31st December they were 5!, per cent, below those of the preceding year at that period. Although it is not advisable to load financial statements witwithstativ Oust! details, the committee will , I tbink (xpect, and dean ; it convenient, that I should place before them the general result of our exports, imports, trade, and navigation. I 'will, in doing' so, avail myself of a brief, but very im portant statement which I have drawn up. It is, I be lieve, the only document of the kind with which I need trouble the committee. It is a statement of the export., and imports of the Uuited Kingdom, and of the tonna e of British anti foreign vessels in different years. I will , THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY E V EATING, APRIL 20, _lB5B take the year 1853—the year before the war—and the years 1855, 1856, and 1857. The total declared value of the exports and manufactures of the United Kingdom in 1853 was, in round numbers, 99,000,0001. In 1855 the declared value had sunk to 95,500,0001. ; is 1856 it had risen to 116,000,000/,,and in 1857 it had stillfurther risen to 122,000,0001. In 1853 the exports of textile fabrics amounted to 52,400,0001, ' • in 1855 to 51,000,000 1 . ; in 1856 to 59,000,0001. ; and in 1857 to 61,000,000/. The exportation of metal fabrics in 1853, the year be fore the war, amounted to 19,500,000/. ; in 1855 it sank to about 18,000,0001. ; in 1856 it rose to 23,500,9001. ; and in 1857 it reached 26,000,0001. The real value of the total imports into the United Kingdom in 1855 was 143,000,000/. ; in 1856 172,000,000/. ; and in 1857 137,000,000/. The imports of raw cotton for consump tion amounted in the year before the war, 1853, to 746,000,0001b5. ; in 13 55 , to 767,000,00011er. ; in 1856, t 108583 British O 00 OOOibs.; tonnage anda amounted in 3n nltBasd7t,n 9,t 0803070, ,0 9 0 0 0 0 ,0 t 0 n O n l s b a n I d n foreign to 6,000, 000 tons. In 1855 British tonnage was still 9,000,000 tone, 185 a 6 n d E f r o i r t a i h g n atto r n e o7n m :nooa a oo4 l oo n e, e ot d oerone.sa a , n b ah o nle u dnd t 6,000,000 1 . In 1 1 1 8 , 5 0 7 00 B 4O ri O t O ish to t n n s n , na g a e nd had for ris l e g n n to ab l o l u , foreign to 7,4 00 , 000 . The total amount of tonnage be fore the war was 15,380,000 tons, and in the last year 19,072,000 tons. Having placed before the committee this general view of the condition of the trade and navi gation of the country, I will, with their permission, pro ceed to what is .the real business before us to-night,— namely, to consider our financial position, and to ascer tain clearly the charges upon the revenue of the country, and the means at our command to meet them. Since the commercial crisis raged tvtih a fury which alarmed the whole kingdom I need scarcely remind the house that there has been a considerable restoration of confidence, and there are at this moment many circumstances which roust conduce to the increased prosperity of the country. The rate of interest is very low ; capital is abundant, money is cheap, and the price of the principal necessa ries of life and of the chief articles of consumation is much lower than it was during last year or the pre ceding year. I should, not, however, be doing my duty to the committee if I concealed from them my own con viction, founded upon information which has been at my command, that although the general condition of the country is at this moment sound, and al though there has been a restoration of confidence and there are numerous indications of improvement, that we are not justified in indulging the belief that there will be a rapid recurrence of that spirit of speculative enterprise which has prevailed cf late years, and which has un doubtedly furnished very beneficial contributions to the lischequer. 1 will now proceed to state the estimated expenditure for the year 1858 9. The charge for the funded and unfunded debts I place at 28,400,0001. The committee will observe that there is an increase upon that charge to the extent of 150,0001. This has been occasioned by the liquidation of the 2,000,000/. of Ex chequer-bonds last year, by some diminution of the rate of interest upon Exchequer-bills, and by some opera , tions of the sinking fund upon the public debt. The next item of expenditure is that for the permanent charge on the Consolidated Fund. That is an item which, I am sorry to say, I have felt it my duty to increase. Last year the charge was, I think, 1,770,0031., but I have not felt justified this year in placing the amount at less than 1,900,0001. I have felt it my duty to meke an in crease in this item in consequence of the compensation which the house awarded in a moment of almost reckless liberality to proctors and other officials connected with the ecclesiastical courts. (Hear, bear.) The charge for the army, including the disembodied militia, and reduced by the amount stated the other night by my right hon. friend the Secretary for War, will be 11,750,0001. The charge for the navy, including the packet service, which has been reduced by my right hen. friend the First Lord of the Admit alty by some 300,0001., will be 9,860,000/. The miscellaneous civil services, which hat year amounted to 7,400,0001., are not at this moment en , tirely settled. There has been considerable difficulty in getting in these estimates, and in examining and revising them, but I have no hesitation in saying that I do not estimate this item at more than 7,000,0001. for the pre sent year. There will, therefore, be a reduction under this head, as compared with the charge last year, of 400,0001. The committee will a ll ow me to make a few remarks upon this item. There is at all times a very great des're to reduce the amount of the Civil Service Estimates, which were termerly known as the Miscellaneous Estimates. We often find that hoe. gen tlemen who are' perfectly ready to support a con silerable expenditure for what are called the great services, loudly demand that economy should be prac tised in the miscellaneous estimates. If, in the vindi cation of their estimates, the Government appeal to the State necessity which requires the maintenance of a large establishment, they are always told, "There are I the miscellaneous estimates ; that is the item upon which you ought to economise. If an army must be maintained upon a great scale—and if the navy—the national and favourite service—must be kept up, at all events the miscellaneous estimates contain some extra vagant items which require excision by the financial knife, and that is the means by which economy must be practised." Now, although the miscellaneous estimates are not yet upon the table, I wish the House to con, eider the nature of those estimates. No. 3 tinder that head is the estimate for law and justice, and the amount has increased considerably every year. No. 4 relates to the subject of education, a question which exoites the deepest interest in this house. That item has advanced in amount, year by year, with a giant's pace. (Helix, h'ar.) I don's mean, on an ccca'ion like the present, to express an opinion one way or the other as to the policy of this expenditure. My business to-night is to give the committee clear and cornplite information as to the financial position of the country, but it is neces s cry for me, in illustrating the system of our expendi ture, to call attention to the nature of the miscellaneous estimates. I will take the item for education, I believe t eatjwhen the first vote for that object was passed by the house, about 20 years ago, its amount was not more than 30,0001. In 10 years the vote had reached the sena of 243,000/. Teo years more have passed, and the expenditure under this head, for England and Ireland, including the schools of art, will for the present year be not lees than 1,000,0001. sterling. I don't say we have n:t been perfectly right in pursuing the course which the house has hitherto taken in this respe.t ; but I think the house ought clearly to understand what they are doing. And don't let it be supposed that the Civil Service Esti mates, which have been constantly increasing, can be re• duced in a reckless manner, when under that branch of expenditure there has been a great system gradually de veloping itself, which in a very short time will demand the outlay of a great department. When I saw the amount which this year would be incurred under the head of education—when I remembered that regularly every year there had been a large augmentation in the votes for that object, I felt it my duty to form some opi nion of what would be the future of this growing branch of our outgoing., and of what means we have of con trolling this expenditure, or of ascertaining generally the relation in which that department would be placed to the Exchequer of this country. Now, after having exa• mined the subject, and giving no opinion, I beg the com mittee to observe, upon the policy or impolicy of this establishment, but only anxious that hon. gentlemen should clearly understand the responsible position they occupy in reference to this matter, it is my deliberate conviction that a system is now rapidly developing itself in this department of our expenditure which shortly will arrive at an amount of at least 3,000,0001. or 4,000,0001. And I think the time has come when the house should calmly review the course they are pursuing in this re spect, and comprehend the liability they are incurring. (Cheers.) Sir, the item for the Revenue Department is 4,700,0001. The total expenditure for the various de partments is 63,610,0001. There is a liability for the War Sinking Fund of 1,500,000/ , besides 2,000,000/. of Exchequer Bonds which mu't be liquidated in the early part of next month. Thus the total charge for the year 1853 59 is 67,110,0001. I now proceed to estimate the resources with which we are to meet those liabilities. I will therefore give our computation of the revenue for 1858-59, The estimates of my predecessor for the Cus toms was 22,350,0001., and the sum paid into the Exche quer was 23,109,0001. Now, in forming an estimate of the probable return from the Customs for this year, we must, in the first place, observe that, although the amount paid under this head into the Exchequer was 23,109,0001 , the net receipt of this department for the year was 23,239,0001., or, not to perplex the committee with odd numbers, 23 300,0001. That difference be tween the net receipt of the Customs and the sum paid into the Exchequer was occa;iJned by certain advances which were mainly owing to the changes rendered neces sary in consequence of the great revolution decided upon by this house of paying the gross revenue into the Ex chequer. Therefore, in calculating what the Customs may produce this year, we must really take as our basis ike actual net receipts, not the amount paid into the Exchequer, which was lessened in its passage thither by the sum of 200,0001., for which that department R ill not be liable in another year. In considering the probable result of the Customs duties this year we must she re• member that since the late commercial panic and di,ar ens they have exhibited great buoyancy. We must remem ber th it all the circumstances of the countryarefcaivieoau,r -t favour able to consurnwion. Capital is abundant, teensy Creed between 40 and 50 p er c en t. l ower in price it was, and of sugar, which was v e ry hi g h an d scarce la-.t year, we have the prospect of a m pl e supp li es, while its cost has fallen considerably—so m uc h, indeed, as h 10 cheap, per cwt. In fact, there is a combination of causes et work which, under ordinary circa': stances, would all stimulate consumption. We must further remember that there is one great influence c.lculated to be most advantegeous to the Exchequer—viz., that the country is now beginning to feel the benefit of that great remis eion of taxation which the house determined upon last year. No doubt, when the revenue rallied at the end of the last'quarter of the past year, that result was to he attributed in some degree to the restoration of eon• tidence, and the eradual, even 'tepid, decline in the value of money. But it is impo2s Ms to shut cur ey es to the confusi )n that what has mainly sustained uu/ revenue—what has suprtted and even stimu'ated consumption, at a time when there were great coin morel 1 disturbance and depression, has been the action of that 9,000,C00/. of remitted taxation which was brought into the pockets of the people, and brought into their pockets only towards the end of the year. Because the committee will recollect that, although the Govern 'cent, influenced by the feeling of the country and the determination of this house, remitted the 9,000,000/ produced by the war income-tax at the commencement of the year, six months elapsed before the relief could be felt by the public, owing to the manner iu which the income-tax is collected. For the first six months the I country paid the war 93., and it was only at the latter end of the year, at the period when all this distress ex• ion w ne d tnt i toh s l eyi t i tprati public b a aea n l icenoenn sufficientna. havingsnnAd dn e pgavlrit powernet sdthshii oof feted,el mm t r h e an e y e a n xa sn a nP ad t ed y i i n n :w e g ee a p nd r s c ,a ts s o t h i o u nr a r ge t t m t e d su it u s c hs b hd at s i y d n nk tion of those who counselled at that time the txpediet goy of reducing the burdens of the country to that amount. tificial attempts to pay debt when you have not a revenue Now, we shall reap the great benefit of that measure in which affords you a natural surplus for the operation. our Customs' duties this year. I should not be acting (Hear, hear.) Here is the account of the public income fairly to the committee if I did not state that, though the and expenditure, from which I will real oily one item. Castoms last year produced 23,289,000/., that amount Our expenditure amounted to 7 0 ,000,0001., and out in was swollen by a large amount paid f•r tea duties in coma to nearly the same amount ; but although we are April, 1857, which belonged to the preceding year, in dealing with these immense amounts, you wil find there consequence of the alteration of those duties. It would is an excess of expenditure over income. Our income not be right to omit from our calculation that 400,0001. 1 arneented la s t y ea r to 63 millions, and yet our expendi paid for tea duties ought really to have been included tore exceeded that amount by, in round numbers two in the return for 1856-57. But, t a ki ng a ll these circum- millions and a half; but when Igo to the other side of stances into consideration —taking the amount last year the balance-sheet and look at the expenditure, I find realized upon Customs, notwithstanding the commercial there a sum a b sor bed by the slaking fund, by the redemp crisis, at 23,300,0001. in round numbers—allowing in tion of Exchequer-bonds, and by the liquidation of pub my estimate for the present year a diminution in the tea- lic debt amounting to two millions and a quarter—only duties of about 200 ,000/.—calculating the produce of a quarter of a million less than the excess of expendi those duties upon the amount which has been and pro- tore. Well, what full ,we ! It follows that you certainly bably will be consumed by the public—deducting from have paid off debt, but you have not paid off debt out of that amount 3,500,0001 b. to meet the extraordinary your revenue. (Hear, hear.) You must have paid it out aceestion to the Exchequer to which I have referred cf the balances of the Exchequer, and the committee —and remembering also that as far as this article must feel that that is a system which, though upon one is concerned, the prospects of the tea trade occasion it might answer, cannot long he continued. The are extremely favourable, there having scarcely committee, therefore, must now consider what is the been any period at which the supplies were consequence of bringing past and present burdens to act more promising, I think I am justified in simultaneously upon the revenue of the year. The only placing the amount of the Customs at 23,400,0001., consequence can be war taxation in time of peace ; and or 100,0001. more than they yielded last year. I now can you have this war taxation in time of peace coneis come, sir, to the next great source of supply to our re- tently with that commercial prosperity on which you de venue—the Excise, which is estimated by the right hon. Pend, and of which you are often talking ! I must there member for Radnor at 17,000,0001., and which, notwith- fare, ask the committee to consider whether the time etanding all the distress of last year, produced has not come at which, not merely with reference to this 17,325,000/. This item I have ventured, after the I year, but with reference to future ones ; and with regard ereatest consideration, and guided by what I believe to to those results as to taxation which we wish and are a!- be the beet information, to put at 18,100,000/a the Ex- most pledged to accomplish, we mast consider the policy cise being subject to all those beneficial ii.fleences which of maintaining this system of artificial sinking funds- In act upon the Customs, and which, like the Customs, hat princip'e I think it highly fallacious and erroneous, and since the great remission of taxation and the reduction in its opplication there has been a greater mistake, be ef the price of money and all other commodities, exhi- cause, independently of the circumstance that you are bited the same elastic and buoyant character. The next maintaining two sinking funds at the present moment on article is Stamps, which were estimated last year at contrary principles, independently of the consideration 7,450,0001., and realised 7,416,0001. The stamps are a that the old sinking fund is in my mind built upon assure branch of our revenue which is acted upon by all the cir- foundation and upon sound principles, admitting for a cumstaoces which also influence those depanments de- moment thae the war sinking fund is right in prin pending upon the consumption of the country. The state ciple, still I think it wrong in its application, because it of the mercantile world acts very quickly upon the rave- never ought to have been brought into operation until nue arising from stamps. The stamps suffered very much yen had paid off your Exchequer bonds. (Hear.) This during the commercial crisis and the period immediately tripe action upon your revenue to pay off debt can only subsequent to it, and they have shown the same alas- end either in increased taxation or in loane, which for ticity as the Customs and the Excise. It is also to be such an obj - rct would be absurd, or in financial ember remembered that the succession duty will have contri- rassment, wTich all of us would desire to avoid. (Hear.) buted much more to the revenue than ,t its", hitherto, Now, sir, I ask the committee calmly to consider this and therefore I have taken the stamps at 7,550,000/., question. You have a deficit, of which 3,500,000/. are which is exactly the amount fixed by my predecessor in occasioned by engagements to pay off debt. You have his statement of last year, when he ventured to make a no surplus ; you have no means of meeting these debts prospective estimate of the year in which we now are. in the present year. Hew, then, will you meet them ! The next item is Land and Assessed Taxes. The esti- Will you raise a loan ! Will you raise a loan to fulfil mated revenue from this source was 3,150,0001.,—the eegaeements to pay debt—part of which consists of au actual produce is 3,152,000/. ; and, considering the artificial sinking fund ? (Hear.) Could there be more great number of new houses which have been built I blundering means of setting your house in order and have put it at 3,200,000/. We now come to the Pro- squaring your accounts than negotiating a loan to meet peaty and Income Tax, which fells this year to 51. in engagements of this kind ! Is it not the last resource of the pound. The first half of the year it is at 7d., and an individual in distress to raise money in order to pay the second half at 51., and the pi - Mime if the tax I have debts, and to get deeper in debt in consequence ! (Hear.) therefore put at 6,100,0001., which is the rate at I cannot suppose that any one in this house would seri which it has always been put. The next item is the ously sanction the idea that weought to raise a loan to ful- Post-office. The estimate for the Post- , !flee was fil engagements to pay off debts. (Hear) Well then, is 3,000,0001., but it has only paid into the Exchequer the committe prepared to meet these engagements by tax -2,1420,000/. That however, was occasioned by similar ation I It is very difficult to say how you could raise a circumstances to those which I have mentioned as sum of 3,500,0001. by taxes. Itisrather aperplexiug pies having an influence Newt the Customs' revenue. The tion. (A laugh ) But suppose you were resolved to do it, , Poet-office bas t o a d vance cons id era bl e sums to i ts d e - th a t would not get y ou out of the difficulty. If you were blyd taxes a su m o f 3 500,000/ • to pay these debts still have a d e f ic i t o f 5 00,0001 You would partmente, whi c h f orm a sor t o f fl uc t uat i ng b a l ance, an d to raise u which will not occu r i n f u t ure years. Th e revenue o f you would the Post-office, therefore, is not to be measured by its have to make provision for the and also to provide some present produce, 2,920,0001 . , b u t l am assure d b y th e surplus. Therefore, if you come to tares, it i s a ques ti on highest authority that I may place it at 3,200,0001. The of raising a sum exceeding 4,000,0001, Well, Sir, under next item, the Crown lands, were estimated at 265,0001., these circumstances, and ana ly s i ng th ese c l a i ms upon us , they produced 277,0001. ; place them at 270,0001. The I think the time has arrived, not merely with reference to last article is the miscellaneous. This w as estimated l as t th e convenience of the moment, but in order to put our year at 1.200 0001. the produce last year was 1,600,0001., finances for future years in a secure position, when we and I have placed it at 1,300,0001. It would be in my ought to come to some determination respecting this power to explain all the items of which this head of war sinking fund. I would humbly recommend the com• revenue is made up. I only refr a i n f rom d o i ng so l es t I tnittee to terminate that arrangement—(hear, hear) — should weary the committee, but having gone through either by repealing the act, which is, I think, false in them all carefully I think I may, without the slightest principle and injurious in practice, or, at least, by sus apprehension, place them at that sum. I h ave shown pending its operation until the other engagements into that the expenditure and li a biliti es o f th e year amoun t which we have entered, vie , these Exchequer bonds, are to 67,110.0001., and I have estimated our revenue a t , provided for. (H ear, h ear.) I feel certain that it will be 63,120,000/. ; there awaits us, therefore, a deficiency to utterly impossible, with public advantage to maintain the be made up to the amount of 3,990,000/. I have no in- instrument which now exists by law, to which the wisest formation as to what may have been the expectation of men of all times have expressed an adverse opinion ; the committee on this point, though I know f rom many which the labours of ;steamed and distinguished commit quarters and by many means what is the expectation of tee of this house, in devising a general sinking fund, have the country ; but whether the conisaittee thinks this an really superseded ; and which is not needed to maintain overwhelming or only a vast d e ficit—it i s , a t a ll even t s , the credit, while, if p reserve d , i t w il l impair the finances a deficit which should make us pause and consider the of the country. Therefore, I shall recommend to the mode in which to encounter it. But I may perhaps be committee, so far as that 1,500,0001. a-year is concerned, permitted, before entering on this consideration, to make a course which fir the present certainly shall prevent its a single observation upon the deficit; and it is one embarrassing the finances of the conn•ry. (Hear, and a which ought to be consolatory to the country. This laugh.) We have now to deal with 2,500,000/. of deficit deficit, however vast it may be, has not been occasioned if the committee sanction the course which I have just by any falling off in our resources. (Hear.) I don't ProPos , d, amid I must say that I view she engagement know how I could place that more clearly before the which we have entered into by those Exchequer-bends committee than by assuming for a moment—l won't in a very different light and spirit from that in whi c h I say that I had the sa me resources a t my comman d v i e w th e war sineing fund. I have been toll that there that nay predecessor had, for he had extraordinary is the easiest possible way of meeting that deficit, and resources at his command—but that there had been that I might propose to fund it ; but if I were to no cessation of any taxes this year which were take that course it would be one which, in my mind, in force last year. I would suppose for a moment would be quite unjustifiable, unlese, indeed, the country that there was not that reduction in our revenue which were in an emergency in which all the principles of has been occasioned by the income tax failing from 7d, finance must give way to political considerations to 51., and the consequence would be that our revenue (Hear, bear.) But in the times in which we find would be 1,060,000/. greater in amount. The deficit, ourselves, I think that it would be highly un then, would be about 2,000,000/., and if we deduct from dessirable and improper to contemplate such a course, that the sum made up by the debt which we have to pay, seeing that it would be totally contrary to the condi amounting to 3,500,000/., it follows that, if we had no tions into which Pailiarneut and the Government entered engagements to meet, and if we had no cessation of when they agreed to igaue those terminable securities. t,xa.tifsn, instead of a d.,ficit we should have a surplus of (11-ar, hear.) It would be to use, I confess, a source of 500,0001. ([fear, hear ) Ther, fore, in dealing with the greatest satisfaction to meet, and to meet to the this very grave and serious subject, it is a source et con- hour, those engagements ; but there is a great deal to solation to us that this is a deficit which, notwithataud- be considered before we arrive at that conclusion. With _ ing the sharp fortunes experienced by the cou n t r y regard to a l oan, I i mag i ne there is but one feeling on during the year, has not been occasioned by a n y di m i both sides of th e h ouse —name l y, that whatever may be eution in our resources. I propose to consider this d e • the deficit, that is the last expedient to which we must licit under two heals. I will consider first, the amount have recourse. (Hear, hear.) To Exchequer-bonds, of deficit which has been occasioned by our undertaking however, applies the same difficulty which applies to to pay off debt, and i t e th e secon d p l ace , th e amount the war sinking fund. It they are to be met by a new tax, it must he an excessiv e tax t o produce upwards of which has been caused by a cessation of taxation. It appears to me that this w ill b e t h e s i m pl es t an d th e 2 ,000,0001.; and when it has produced that amount, most inteLigible manner of treating the subject. Firma where a re you ! S t ill i n d e b t , B ut if we cannot meet then, with regard to that amount of the deficit— them immediately, I think, at all events, th a t the corn. 3,500,000/ , which is occasioned by our engagement to iuittee will agre e th a t the spirit of the engagements whould be fulfilled—that they should pay off debt. be engagements The first item to which I wish to call the attention of the committee i s th e War Sinking F un d , to which we are resslved to meet out of the revenue of the the amount of 1,500,000/. The committee is aware that country, and that we should guard as much as possible irrespective of the War Si n ki ng F un d t h ere i s a Gene- against their ever becoming a permanent addition to the cal Sinking Fund Act which is in operation. Thirty public debt. (Hear, hear.) Still, seeing the f deficiency years ago the system of sinking Puna that prevailed in that awaits m e even if those engage ments are provided this country was to allot a certain fixed sum, without or, and anxi ous as I s h ou ld b e a t once to provide for any reference to the state of the revenue, to the pay- them, I feel it my duty, in order to pla ce th e fi nances of merit of debt. lii the heat of the great war the House the country, not merely for this p ar, b ut for future of Commons pas-ed a reso l u ti on , th a t every year years, in a position is hich I think will be advantageous )uer dbeebitev ;and 5,000,000/. ~ witoout fail"—those were the words, Ito the country, to recommend to the c omm i ttee to pos t . bonds—("i the hear," an d cries o f "oh, o h !" from 0 0 position) ; b u t t o consen t to ar r angements which, so far liu that d system, be apportioned the amount t o reserved the redemption beiog nior of pone one for some per i o d th e p a y m ent o f those Exche as I can f orm an op i n i on , w ill se cure their being paid , a r i less le d in until aaito h u e n yeart, bu tl 8 t 2 i, g e . principle That system being stem the utterly sa m e b , r pre- - out ce the revenue o f th e coun try, an d which will place down over and ov e r a g ain. It was false in principle and most injurious in practice. In 18'29 a committee our general finances in such a position that they will was appointed to consider the whole investigation. form no obstacles to those arrangements which I think That committee investigated the subject with great it would be for the interest of the country to adopt. I acumen and depth, and it recommended the adoption of will postpone describing, however, , to a future portion the only sound principle on which a sinking fund ought of my remarks—when the time will natural'' , arrive to be based—v'z., the application of the surplus revenue that I should touch upon thin portion of the of the country to the liquidation of debt, to be ewer- subject more particulaily—the mode in which I tained and apportioned every quarter. In the course propose that the arrangements should be accomplished. cf the last ye ar , w h en l oans were i ncurre d , th e h ouse Now, Sir, I have considered that part of the deficit thought fit to ream- to the old system upon vs hich sink- which is occasioned by engagements to pay debts, and ing funds were established—viz , allotting a fixed sum, which is no doubt mdch the most sonsiderabl e portion of without any reference to the state of the revenue, to the it. There is next a part of the deficit to be considered liquidation of debt ; and while they recurred to the Old which, though not so large in proportion, is of a eha• isyetem, with strange inconsistency I think, they did not ratter which must be regarded in a severer light than supersede the new one which in 1829 had been esta- the other, when the deficit is occasioned—no matter [shelled in its stead, and which was founded ou a totally what may have been the original cause—by an absolute different principle. That measure did not pass without falling off in the revenue. An absolute falling off n discussion in this house. Objections were raised to it by the revenue must be met by means which will not only persons of very great authority. There was a debate ! f supply the deficiency, but will also place the genera' some length, and there was a division. At the moment c , edition of the revenue in a sound and satisfactory it appeared to me that the Government were not much state. (Hoar, hear.) Teat portion of the deficit has enamoured of Oleic own plan, or confi lent iu the policy been occasioned by the cessation of a tax—and that tax which they were recommending. The house thought fit, one e f a very memorable character —one to which we mainly influenced I think by one who upon such sub- cannot bring our minds free from considerations beyond jects, if not indeed upon all subjects, addresses the house those of a merely fiscal and financial character; and it w i t h authority—my hon, friend the member for Hun- certainly appears to me that upon the decision of the ti ng doa (Mr. 'l', Baring) to agree to this revival of the committee with respect to that source of defi c it the fu old principle of the sinking fund. But my hon. friend ture satisfactory management of the finances of the the member for Huatingdon, when he recommended country will very much depend. (Hear, hear.) The that course, recommended it for special reasons, Be property and income-tax has long and frequently occu said, "We are now, or soon shall be, in a time of per- pied the consideration of this house. I think I may say feet peace, and it is not until we are at perfect peace that it has never ceased to occupy the thoughts and to that this sinking fund is to come into operation. There- interest the feelings of the country. It is a tax the ins tore, on the whole, I think it wisest to secure the liqui_ portate eof which is net, to be measured simply by its da'ion s f debt incurred in war during a time of profound financial results. Those who pay it do not consider merely peace." Whether we aro now in a time of perfect peace the ensue which they y eld to th e E xc hequer, but the I ca n hardly presume to deoide, lest I might introduce mode in which it is assess e d, and th e manner in which into this discussion, which should of all discussions b e it is levied ; so that from the earliest time that it has most calm and temperate, elements cf angry controversy. occupied the considera ion of Parliament to the pre- It is very likely that my noble friend the Secretary of sent, social, and p ditical principles have been involved State for Foreign Affairs, might, if I applied to him be of in its character and consideration. (Hear, hear.) It the saute opinion as the noble lord the ineuther for Tiver- is not accessary for the to remind the conamit•ee of ton, and diplomatically assure me that we are not at the manner in which this tax has habitually and war with China. lam not a diplomatist ; I hav e o n ly traditionally been described i n Parliament. The the charge of the finances of the country ; but when I epithets which were applied to it, and in which the want to reduce the estimates and look to t h ose o f t h e greatest men have been used to characterise it, are in navy, for instance, I cannot help feeling that a'though the meanly, as they have often been upon the lips, of we are at peace with China that peace has a most war- hen- gentleman on both sides of this house ; and that it like influence upon our estimates. (" Hear," arid cheers.) is unjust, unequal, and inquisitorial all of us have felt Therefore, the ground upon which my hole friend the and most of us have acknowledged. (Hear.) There member for Huntingdon supported the ee!ablishinent of are, I think, two great classes of reasons why the is• that slaking feed—viz, that we were entirely at peace, c one- ax ,bould not form a permanent feature of our or should be so when it came into operation, has not finance. (Cheers.) The first class I may eall domestic; arisen ; and knowing that en these !subject s m y h on . the second psi take rath er of considerations of an txter friend very muc h aewc . i w ith me, takin g the plain view nal character. l'he feeling of the community generaly of these affairs in China, lem convinced that, even with of the inequality, of the injustice, and of the odiol a his view of th e ca , e , h e newer contemplated that the nature of this tax, has unfortunately been sanctioned sinking fund should be brought into action at a time end concurred in by all !hose statesmen who have felt when, whether peace sr war, we are fitting our lima- the necessity of levying it ; and it has been iirpossib,e mentsand have a great naval f !rc•-i in the Chinese waters, to maintain it ior any considerable time, or to adart t Bat, Sir, hceiles the !Ailing fund of 1829, the general as a permairent featu re o f our financial eystern, withott sinki ng fund, and ih e war sinking fund, which thi s y ear great acerbity of feeling and touch violent controversy ,onies into c‘iiiipiete operation, we ha ve also—to which being , x ,i e d as to its character and its incidence. 2f I shall afterward s ref r —the en , afr t „ ,emen to pay off you wish to establish it you have an endless crowd cf 2,000,0001. of Exchequer bonds. Now, I ask the corn- controversies of the mo.t angry character upon thes e inittee calmly to consider in what position we are plac- amerg other points :—Whether there shall be recognisel ing the finances of the country and its comm erce , w hi c h a difference between property and income in its assess. is now at a inaieent of depression, and not able or in- it •nt ; setetio r, if that difference be not acknowledged, ,lined to bear an increwe of taxation, by the means of a differenc o shall be admitted between precarious and paying off the debt which we have sanctioned. Last Inaenar.ent incomes ; whether there shall be a difference year you had the general sinking fund, you had the between incomes derive.] from trade and incomes derived special sicking fund, you hid engagements in the shape from professions; whether the poor man shall be ex ef Exchequer borld,, all acting upon your finances. euipt_d, and what a poor man really is ; what are in- There absolutely was a SUM of the national debt re- coulee and what are wages ; who shall be exempted, deemed by the operation of the general sinking fund, where) ought the line of exemption to he drawn, and the which yon will lied in the account u p on t h e t a bl e. It convenience of an exemption which shall exclude all but was not a very large amount, but positively there was a those who are called rich. (Hear, hear.) These are sum e f the national debt redeemed by the acti on o f th e some of the eui jects of controversy which were always genera' 'sinking fund. Then you had the special sinking raised in this c ouu t ry when an attempt was iva,de to fond coming partially into operation to the ex a n t o f establish the incouwet x for any lengthened period. 250,0001. ; then you had 2,000,0001. of Exchequer bonds. They have nut of late prevailed. But why, let we ask, Now, let me slrew what is the practical result of these ale hits that been the case ? It isbecause ,) in 18 r 3 , after a great agitation througliont the country upon this subject had taken place, after a c nntuittee had sat for two years to investigate it, and atterall sorts of plans and expedients devised by every manner of man had been considered in reference to it, an eveinent member of this house brought forward a grew:, financial scheme in which, ackno v ledging the inapessibiley of reconstructing this tax upon principles of justice, upon principles which could satisfy the fair demands and expectations of society, he submitted to the notice of the House a proposition the effect of which would be to semis its diminution and final extinction at the end of a certain term of years. (Hear, hear.) That scheme was brought for ward with consummate ability, and, having been supported in the House of Commons by an overwhelming majority, created the conviction in the public mind that in its spit it the arrangement would be carried into effect, and that the financial policy which was in 1853 propounded with one which both Parliament and the country had cordially embraced and sanctioned. (Chem.) I do not wish to overstate the case. To do so would not be my interest, as it certainly is not my inclination. I shall not say that a solemn compact was entered into at the time to which I allude between Parliament and the country upon this subject, which would be regarded as independent of all circumstances and events. That is a proposition which it would be wild and idle to assume and absurd to attempt to uphold. There were, however, arrangements cordially entered into, and in the same spirit understood, and which the country ex pected would be religiously fulfilled if the interposition of extraordinary circumstances did not render their fulfilment impossible. (Hear, hear.) Well, circum stances of that character did take place. A. great national emergency occurred. And what, let me ask, in that hour did that people do who had previously murmured at the injustice of the principle upon which the income-tax was established ? When the safety of the country was endangered, when her honour and her best interests were at .take, what did they do who before the arrangement of the right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford was brought forward—an arrangement which they had cordially accepted—had complained of the unequal mode in which this tax was levied upon the various classes of the community,-..what. I repeat, did they do when the scheme which that right hon. gentleman devised was not only arrested in its progress, but made the source from which the power of England flowed forth to support the honour and interests of the eountry ? Did they murmur? (Cheers.) Not for an in s'ant. (Hear.) On the contrary, everybody did his utmost to prove to England and to the world that there was no burden to which our people would hesitate to cwstribute at a moment of national emergency ; the income tax was raised to a very large amount, and during the period to which I refer, when the country clearly tin ' derstood that it was absolutely necessary the income tax should continue to be levied, not a voice was raised against its imposition. (Cheers.) It was not until peace had been secured that the nation ealled for a remission of the war taxation in this particular. When that great object was happily attained we heard again the expres sion of its expectation that the arrangement of 1853 would be carried into effect. (Hear.) There can be no doubt that the breaking out of the war caused a consider able difference in our position as compared with that in which we stood at the period at which the arrangement was originally introduced. (Hoar.) The temperate charge on our debt becaene liable to encumbrances, such for instance, as those Exchequer bonds, which must be met, and which constitute impedimeate in the way of adhering to the arrangement of 1853, which could not well be foreseen. Th se, however, are circumstances which a sensible people will not fail to accept as furnish ing good grounds for delay in the diminution of extinc tiou of the income-tax. (Hear.) They do not, how ever, constitute sufficient'y strong reasons why the coun try should be prepared to regard the arrangement of 1852 as one which may now be looked upon as a scheme at once visionary and fantastic. (Cheers.) I cannot help feeling, then, that, looking to those domestic con siderations which undoubtedly prevail—namely, that the very principle of the tax is one which creates pub lic disaffection, and is calculated to irritate the public mind—it is highly inexpedient that it should form a permanent feature of our financial system, (Cheers) I may now be permitted to advert to other grounds which, although they may note's() generally influ ence public opinion as those which I have just men tioned, yet are, I think, well deserving of our considera tion in dealing with this important questien. They embrace considerations arising out of the occurrence of some extraordinary emergency, and are of a political nature. Is it not of the highest importance, I would ask, that the Sovereiga of this country should, notwith standing the immense revenue which is annually raised to euppert the vast establishments of this country, be enabled, with the concurrence of her Parliament, to touch at any moment, as it were bya spring, a source of revenue which in an hour of great emergency would yield 20,000,0001. or 25,000,0001. sterling—a sum equal to those large loans which foreign potentates raise at a ruin ous rate of interest, and one of which almost exhausts the resources of their subjects—without causing a mur mur to rise to the lips of a single person in her dominions ? (Cheers.) Ttiat, I maintain, is a reason drawn from politi cal sources why we should concur with the right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford in the proposition he has advocated in the language more unequivocal than any other statesman in this house-- that the income-tax should nut be allowed to constitute a permanent feature of our financial system. (Hear, hear.) But, although that may be my opinion, and although I cannot but think it is the opinion of the great majority of the House of Commons,—although there are grounds of the highest political expediency which seem to me to render it de.irable that the arrange ment of 1353 should be carried out iu spirit, if not in the letter, it is still undoubtedly possible that the country, anxious as it may be to witness the realisation of its expectations in that respect, and having the utile ist con fidence that Parliament is really and in all sincerity dis posed to meet its wishes upon the point, still may not be unprepared, knowing that a deficiency in the revenue exists, to submit to the burden in connexion with the ihcume-tax which it bore last year. ("Hear, hear," and laughter.) The people of England may say—" A very great deficit lies before us. It is not, after all, half so great as we thought it would be some time ago. If we submit to an income-tax at the same rate as that of last year we shall get rid of this deficit, and we must trust to the future." (Laughter.) Now, that is a view of the case which it Is my duty to place before the house. We have a deficit in our revenue not occasioned by our engagements to pay a debt, but by a cessation of taxes, which deficit must be made good by taxation, and which would be converted into a surplus if the committee should think proper to continue the income-tax for ano ther year at the same rate as last year. (Hear.) The committee may take that course, and take it, too, with the sincere intention of carrying the scheme of the right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford into effect. But there are other considerations which ought to influence our decisions with respect to this question. The country has behaved extremely well dur ing the last five years in !flattens of taxation. (Cheers.) At no period of English history has so much public spirit been exhibited upon the part of the community in that particular, and I think that is as much as one ought to expect. There is no doubt that this country generally has this question of the income-tax greatly at heart. It has for a long time clung to the belief that, notwith standing the adverse circumstances which have taken place, there has existed upon the part ef Parliament a sincere intention to diminish and eventually to extin guish this tax, and I cannot but feel that if I wore to ask you to take a course which would look like break ing your promise with the nation in that respect, and to seek to get out of our difficulty by again passing a law which would do away with that remission which took place last year, I should be calling upon you to adopt a policy which would be but too well calculated to sour the public mind. (Hear, hear, a n d c h eers. ) T he re sult of such a policy would be that when a great em,r gency again arose, you would not be then in a position to appeal to the country with the same success, or to expect to have your appeal met with the same cordial response which upon a recent occasion awaited the Minister who heel the direction of the national manses. (Hear.) I feel therefore bound to announce it as the deliberate opinion of her Majesty's Government that the deficit in the revenue which I have brought tinter your notice ought not to be supplied by proposing an increase in the income-tax. (Cheers.) But if the incene-tax is not to be de turbed—if the income-tax for this year is only to give us the reduced rate of sd.—and we propose that course —the house must feel that it is absolutely necessary to support the revenue of the coun try by the imposition ef new taxes. (Sensation, and some urea of Hoer.) I know that I may be told by some geetlemen that you can obtain the relief you want by a retention of expenditure. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Williams and several other hon. members.) Allow me to say that reduction of expenditure is not a task that can be undertaken in haste and heat. It requires time deep, protracted, and minute investigation—and though it might be very easy t effect certain reduction?, which tnight be very popular in the house fer the moment, yet unless they are well considered and founded on mature investigation and a. nple knowledge, they woul I only lead to a swift and fatal reaction to expenditure. (Hear.) Now, we have made some reductions in expenditure. We have made reductions which could be made with safety, and in amount not contemptible. Allow me to say that in meeting the difficult financial position we have had to encometer a reduction in expenditure of 800,000/ , which we have male this year, is an item not to be despised. (Hear, hear.) But let rue impress on the committee that which I have presumed to say on previous o ccasions —reduction depends on pol cy. It is quite a will idea to suppoee that a body of men, though they may be Ministers, can meet in a room and suddenly alter the eetable,hmente of the ceuntty. The establish • mews of the couwey are adapted to the policy which the country pursues, and if you pursue a policy, and sanc tion a policy, which lead to invasion, to costly alne merits, and consequently to expenditure, yeti cannot ex pect, because there is a change of elinieters, that you can deal with that expenditure, unless you deal with that policy. (Hear, hear.) It-ally sound reduction is the effect of fine and t'uougleful management, and is not in a few hasty weeks to be concocted in order to obtain popular applause. (Hear, hear.) I say, there fore, that it was utterly impossible for us to deal with the txpenditure of the country during the period in which we have had the respousible po-ition of Ministers. We have succeeded to arrangements, which we must manage as best we can; and, therefore, now that there isle deficit in the revenue, you must not, unmindful of the not inconsiderable reduction safely and honourably effected by us, say that we ought to have made le hue tione, (11.ar, hear.) When we have cpp'.rtuniiy and time we can submit the establishments of this country to such severe revision as they may require, and with fa vours., le circutestancee, effect considerable retrence nieets iu these establishments. (Hear, hear.) But it would be worse than mockery to pretend that we are able to do so all of a moment. (Hear, hear.) In the ungracious office of selecting a new tax, I am at lea 3t somewhat upnetd by the consolatory conviction that every person who may be called on t pey it will either directly or indirec , ly feel the benefit of the considerable remission of taxation which occurs this year by the fall in the ra , ,e of the income-tax, (A slight laugh ) Wh , -n rental - 01,r whet the cou , ,try expbcte:!, I .cope the I committee will not forget, in the za:.sider:A - ion they may gtve to my proposition, that NO with the with the tact that by the operation of the law the com munity are already entitled to, and soon will enjoy, a considerable diminution of that tax so peculiarly odious to the people, and that benefit the country will not measure simply by the amount of the remission, but will also accept it as an earnest that the policy of 1853 will be carried out. (Hear, hear.) The mode in which I would attempt to supply the deficiency is by asking the house to agree to a proposition which appears to mo as reasonable and wise. I would ask them to agr -e to equalise the duty on spirits. (Hear, and laughter.) The committee will recollect that we have been legislating on this sub ject now for several years. We have, consequently, great experience to guide us as to the course we should adopt and the results we may obtain. I think it was in 1853 that the duties on English, Scotch, and Irish spirits were raised. They were raised considerably, with great benefit to the Exchequer, with increased consumption, and without the slightest appearance of illicit distillation. They were, I believe, in the following years increased with the same result. Li 1855 the right hon. gentleman the member for Radnor equalised the duties on English and Scotch spirits. Well, that was a step taken with some apprehension, but what was the consequence ? Great advantage to the revenue, increased consumotion, no appearance of illicit distillation ; and, stranger than all, the greatest benefit was experienced by the Scotch, whose duties were raised. (Laughter.) That may appear a paradox ; but it is a dry f ac t, an d i s accounte d f or i n a moment, because, by the raising of the duty, they were freed from a most embarrassing and ruinous restriction, and tied the full enjaytne.t of the markets of England. (He r We have much experience, I say again, to guide us. Since 1855 the duties on spirits have been raised, having been equalised between England and Soetland, while a differential duty still remaius in favour of Ire land. The duties have again been raised, and the results have been equally satisfactory. I have taken some pains to obtain the best information on the subject, and from what I hear there is not the slightest appearance of illicit distillation. Look at the position of Ireland. At this moment the only differential duty that remains be tween Ireland and Great Britain is the differential duty on spirits. lam sure that my Irish friends, who are always demanding justice for Ireland—(laughter)—and who define that justice to consist in an identity of insti tutions, of rights, and of dntiee—(renewed laughter)— cannot on reflection consider the position in which they are placed by this differential duty on spirits with any other but feelings of indignant humiliation. (Great laughter.) I remember once, whta I was at Bristol, a ship came in from Ireland, and, to my great sarprise, I saw it boarded instantly by Custom -house officers, and the crew treated just the same as a parcel of foreigners. The vessel was searched to see if there were any Irish spirits in the hold, which, if it had come in undetected, would have paid a duty of 6s. 2d. instead of Bs. Was that a position for " high-spit ited" IriAimen to be placed in ? (Laughter.) How much bettsr will it be for the Irish to have the command of the English market —(hear)—and not only of the English but of the British market. How much better for them to enter into active competition with English and with Scotch spirits, and, instead of confining themselves to the supply of a mere provincial demand, to make the most of those admirable inventions which I am told the French now prefer even to their own brandy. (Hear, and a laugh.) How much better for them to pour their spirits into this country, and through this country into the continent, and thus give a great stimulus to the trade. (Hear.) Sir, I cannot help feeling that this is a tax of which the committee ge nerally will approve ; and I trust that I shall experience no opposition on the part of my Irish friends, and that not a single murmur will be called forth by my proposal. (A. laugh.) If, however, there is a murmur among any of them I would ask them in the most cordial spirit— (laughter)—to consider, first, the position of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer—(h ear and a laugh)—and, next, to hear in mind with w h a t pride and satisfaction they will return to their native country when they are able to tell their constituents that that income tax with which they were visited--not by me I may observe (they will remember that) but which somehow or other, by means I never could penetrate, was unexpectedly fastened upon their necks—has been shaken to its centee ; that that real badge of their yoke has been nearly got rid of ; that they have given a fatal blow to it. (Laughtsr.) In the recollection of these cheerful circumstances they will, I hope, find ample compensation for any annoyance which they might otberwi, e experience. (Hear.) The commit tee will therefore, I trust, sanction my proposition to equalise the spirit duties; and that will 'give to the Ex chequer the sum of at least 500,0001 ' which is th e amount of he deficit. (He a r.) I am much obliged to the committee for bearing with ins while I have submitted to them this somewhat lengthened statement—(cheers) —but I am sure they will remember that my position is not one of ordinary difficulty, because I have been obliged by process of analysis to operate upon a large deficit, and, of course, to touch upon many circum stances. The committee will now consider that if the course which I humbly recommend be adopted the de ficit has disappeared. We have put an end to the war sinking fund, or postponed its operation to the happy day when the Exchequer-bonds shall be paid out of our revenue ; we have agreed to an arrangement with re ferenca to our Exchequer-bonds, and prevented them from forming any obstacle in the way of placing our financial system in order ; and, lastly, by the proposal to equalise the duties on spirits, we have enti re ly got rid of the defict. B u t I d eem it advisable, besides, that we should add something to the revenue in the shape of surplus, (Hear.) I shall not press much upon upon the resources of the country or the patience of the house in this respect, because the state of our balance is very satisfactory, and because a very large and un usual amount will be added to them in the course of this year. Nay, if I had chosen to avail myself of it. a sum of 400,0001. might fairly be brought into the re venue of the year. I -have thought it best, however, not to bolster up the finances, and I have felt that on the whole the house would rather see the case under than over stated. But the East India Company, who owed to the State 1,500,0001., have already paid 1,100,0001. of that sum towards the reduction of the war expenditure of this year. This amount was lent out a revenue, and it was agreed that it should be paid in revenue. There is yet 400,0001., therefore, which, strictly speaking, might fairly be taken credit for in the Budget ; but I thought it best on the whole to make an unvarnished statement to the house. Nevertheless, that 400.000/. will at all events be paid into the Exchequer Teen there is a balance upon repayments over advances this year cf probably not less than 600,090/. There are moneys to be paid both on account of the interest and the sinking fund of ,the Sardinian loan. There are, too, other items, so that a very large sum will be paid into our balances, which, as the committee will have observed from the balance sheet, were themselves at the end of the year in a satisfactory position. This, therefore, being the state of the balances of the Ex chequer ; remembering (which is really the fact) that in the estimate of revenue which I have placed before the committee I have most scrupulously refrained from in dulging in any but the most moderate Expectat one ; feeling, indeed, that if I bad adopted the sanguine views which many persons in authority would have sanctiunedf I might have ventured on a more cheerful statement ; looking, moreover, at the great efforts which the coun try has made, I should not have thought it necessary under all these circumstances to trouble the committee much on this subject of a surplus. But such a surplus I believe ought to be provided, even though it be a small one ; and, confident in the resources of the revenue, I think a small one should under the circumstances suffice. Now, so far as I can form an opinion on the subject from conversation with men of busine ss , there is no mo d e of taxation more popular than the application of stamps to Various articles of commerce. (Hear, hear.) No one feels the burden ; it is a mode of taxation which on the whole occasions less annoyance than any other, and I think in fact it is rather popular. (Laughter.) The penny p )stage system first brought taxation by means of stamps into faishi n. People like to see vast results accomplished by slight means. I therefore propose that whenever we draw a check we should place a penny stamp upon it. (Cheers.) I am assured by one who, upon such a subject mu t be considered the sighest authority, and who has very c ,mpletely mastered this question, that I may count on a sum of not less than 300,0001. from this source. (Hear ) Of course, there may be obj-ctione to the tax, but every man who draws a .t check must remember that he has now to pay an income-tax of only O. instead of 7d., and obtaining as he does a remission of the income-tax, a id seeing the foundation of its future extinction laid, he must feel that under the circumstances some sacrifice roust be made. (Cheers.) I hope, therefore, the committee will agree with me that this is a mode of taxation, if it can be called such, which they will not refuse to sanction. (Hear, hear.) Considering the vr.ition of the Exchequer at this moment, I am not prepared to ask the committee to impose any other tsxes. I would a,k them, however, to permit me fur a moment to remind them of what may be the position of this country in the year following the present, for, al though we hear many taunts about " prospective finance," I think that any person in the office which I now have the honour to occupy wou!d be greatly wanting in duty if he brought forward any proposition without having xercised some foresight in regard to it, and weighed in some manner its influence upon our future prospects. Now let us see, if the arrangements which I have pro p,tsed are agreed to by the committee, what will be our prospects in the year following this. You will have again a loss o❑ the income-tax, as compared with your present revenue, of 1,000,0001. ; and assuming that all things reutaio the same, and that your revenue and ex , peaditure are exactly what they are now, you will have a lots in 1809-GO of 1,000,0001. in your income-tax, while 2 000,000/. of Exchequer bonds will become due. You will have this 3,000,0001. reduced by the amount of surplus which I may obtain this year ; but say that you have to meet 3,000,0001. of deficit. Now, I put it to the committed—is that a prospect which ought to alarm us ? Can we entertain a doubt but that with fair commercial prosperity, with a fair revival of trade in this country, the resources of our revenue, aided by welt considered and wise retrenchments, will be hufficitnt under these circumstances to meet our engagetnents, to pay these bonds, and to encounter that diminution •f income-tax. (Hear, hear.) 'Well, if you do that,—and I feel confident that you will be able should no die at:ter against which human provision is unavailing overtake the country,—in what position shall we .tend in that famous 1800 which has been the pivot of modern finance? There are certainly 2,000,000/, of bonds due in that year ; but you will have annuities to the amount of something like 2,150,0001. per annum ex piring at a time when I hope and believe you will pos sess a large, a bounding surplus of revenue ; and you will be able, if not to the letter, at least in spirit, to at • cern:di-1a thcplan of the right ton. gentleman. It is for that rea-on---in order that we may act fairly, candidly, and sincerely towards the country on this question, in order that he wise arrangemenis of the right hen, gen tleman -ea) be a s-nted to, and that that great eel cy— fo: a great policy with regard' to the income-tax I be lieve it to be—iii.ulti be ixciimpli , loel, that 1 .44'411-pro pose not. to encumber •1860 or 1861 with the bonds-- which at present we cannot meet, but I shall propose that in 1862 and 1863 1,000,0001. should be apportioned to each year. (Hear, hear.) When that is done I have no doubt the policy of 1853 will be carried into effect. (Hear, hear.) I now submit these propositions to the candid consideration of the committee. When they re collect the expectations of the country as to the revenue, and the fact that at the end of last year, and indeed so late as the period at which I assumed office, the esti mated deficiency was not less than 6,500,0001., I hope they will not be dissatisfied with the information that by the rallying of the revenue during the last quarter, and by judicious retrenchment, the immense deficit that so long brooded over the spirit and depressed the energy of the country has been dissipated, notwithstanding the reduction of an impost most odious to the people, in a manner which guarantees an entire accomplishment of the right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford. This result will, I think, be satisfactory to the country as well as to the committee ; and I trust that these propositions will not only receive the candid consideration of the committee, but obtain, after due thought and discussion, the cordial acceptance of the country. (Loud cheers, io the midst of which the right hon, gentleman resented his seat.) The CHA lItMAN having put the first resolution, the effect of which was that the dirty on Irish spirits should be assimilated to that on English and Scotch spirits, Mr. GROGAN said he thought the committee could not but admire the ability and clearness of the Chaneel lor of the Exchequer's statement. (Cheers.) His state ment as to the deficit no doubt seemed to alarm them, but they must feel he had conferred a substantial benefit OD the country by adhering to the arrangement of 1853, arid thus insuring the extinction of the income tax in 1860. (Hear.) The committee would not feel surprised at an Irish member's objection to one of the right hon. gentleman's propositions, viz., that as to Irish spirits. (Laughter.) He had that day presented a petition signed by upwards of 4,000 of the inhabitants of Dublin, com plaining of the ruinous effects of the present war impost on Irish whisky, one of the chief articles of Irish mann f .cture, and praying for its reduction. What must be the ft eling of the petitioners when they learnt that not only was that impost not to be reduced to its amount before the late war, but further increased S The statement of the right hon. gentleman showed there was no neces sity for that increase of taxation. He had congratulated the committee on the fact that an increase of the impost had not been followed by an increase of illicit distillation; bat the peculiar circumstances of Ireland during the last two or three years prevented such a result. The right hon. gentleman might rest assured that illicit distillation would revive in full force as soon as the Irish crop be came favourable to it ; and that the gain to the revenue from the proposed increase of duty would be more than counterbalanced by the expense which endeavours to re press it would entail. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY observed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had omitted the estimated expenses of the Chinese war. He apprehended that as the expendi ture last year was estimated by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer at 65, 474,000/., but proved to be 70,000,0001., so the expenditure this year would be considerably more than the estimate of the present Chancellor of the Ex chequer. He therefore wished to know whether it was not probable that the expenditure on account of the army and navy this year would, as was the case last year, exceed the estimates by some millions I It was, of course, impossible fur any Chancellor of the Ex chequer to estimate accurately in respect of contingen cies ; but on that very account the committee ought not to rely on the right hon, gentleman's estimate of the ex penditure of this year. He most coriially approved his prop )sition as to the income-tax, but begged to remind him of the great injustice to which the holders of the annuities that would expire in 1860 were subjected. That class of public creditors paid 17 times more tax than the holders of perpetual annuities. He wished to know whether there were no outstanding debts which would be included in the expenditure of the present year. Mr. DEASY said that as the propositien of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would affect a most im portant branch of Irish trade, and involve consequeincei . of great importance in a social point of view, he hoped the right hon. gentleman would not call for a decision on the question at once. He (Mr. Deasy) feared the measure proposed by the right hon. gentleman would lead to the increase of illicit distillation in Ireland, and he hoped the resolution would be postponed, at all events until Friday. Sir C. LEWIS—In the very lucid statement which the right hon. gentleman has made to the committee he has adverted principally to the finances of the current year, commencing in April last, but he also made some partial allusion to the finance of the preceding year. His statements, so far as they related to numerical facts, ap peared to me to be strictly correct, but some observa tions which he made in the nature of comment upon the character of last year's expenditure I cannot allow to. pass without explanation. In arguing upon the question of a war sinking fund the right hon, gentleman adverted to the expenditure of last year, as proving that the op.. ration of such a sinking fund was fallacious,—that there was a deficit of 2,000,000/. upon the expenditure of hint year, and the payments for the liquidation of Exchecerier bonds to the ex ent of 2,000,000/. having been taken out of the balances of the precedine year could not be 'consi dered as a redemption of debt out of the revenues 'of last year. Now, I wish to call the attention of the core mitts* to the payments which were made out of the rev enue of last year in the nature of the redemption of debt, beyond the 2,000,000/. of Exchequer Bonds. Out of the re venue of last year there were redeemed in the 'Datum of debt 2,000,000/. of Exchequer Bonds, and there were also Exchequer Bills paid off in money to the !amount of 288,6001. I am not able to state whether therm billshave been reissued, but, so far as my knowledge extends, they have not, and therefore their payment won/c1 be a re demption of debt. There was also the war e4nking fund of last year to the amount of 250,0001. ; there was a sinking fund under the operation of the Act of Parlia ment, of 77,8621. ; and there was a payment of 1,125.206/. for the redemption of Sound Dues, which was iu the nature of the payment of debt, inasmuch as if it had not been defrayed from the revenues of the year the amount must have been borrowed. That amount was not included in the estimates laid before the house at an early period of the session. The total of these sums is 3,741,6681., which was paid last year in the na ture of the redemption of debt. The committee will bear these facts in mind before they come to the conclu sion that there was anything fallacious or deceptive in - the redemption of debt last year. The amounts I have mentioned were not the only sums paid last year out; of the revenue, in addition to the estimate which I submitted to the house at the beginning of the session. We paid, besides, 635,0001. for the Persian expedition, 40 1 .,0001. for the dowry of the Princess Royal, and a suppt omen.' mry vote of 500,0001. for the militia. Now, all these charges, in addition to the estimates I laid up on the table at the commencement of the session, w ere dis charged from the revenue of the year, with thee excep tion of 2,000,0001. taken out of the balance of the pre coding year, and I will state why I thoughst it a per fectly legitimate operation to diminish the ba lances to that extent. On the 31st of March, 1857, the balances in the Exchequer amounted to 8 , 6 68,000/., a Bum which was unnecesearily large. On the 31st of March thiis year the balances in the Exchequer amounted to 6.,657,0001., which, as the right hon. gentleman has said with great truth and candour must be considered es large sum to be retained in the Exchequer. But out of the revenue of last year many payments were made which were unex pected when the estimate of expenditure W 249 submitted by me to the house, and which wore rendered necessary by the Indian mutiny, and by the consequent, increase of expenditure for the army and navy. When these facts are taken into consideration the committee will, I think, come to the conclusion that there was nothing fallacious or diceptive in the operations for the redemption of debt last year, I shall not trouble the committee at any length with regard to the plan of financial arrangements for the current year which has been submitted to them by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I will merely state that; I certainly concur with the right hon, gentleman in think ing that there is a fundamental distinction between a de ficiency of revenue caused by current expenditure, and such a deficiency caused by operations in former years for the redemption of debt. I reserve any observations with regard to the war sinking fund of 1,500,0001. until the right hon. gentleman brings in his measure. I retain the opinion I formerly expressed that some arrangement of this nature is expelient to provide for the regular re demption of debt, f e. if we trust merely to the operatic see of the existing Sinking Fund Act there is no security for the regular reduction of debt, and if we are to redeem any considerable amount it is necessary to impose a dis tinct obligation for the redemption of a certain sum. When the Loan Act was passed it was impossible to fore see how long the war would continue, and I folly admit teat when we are called upon bylaw t 'redeem 2, 1 000,000/. Exchequenboude, and there is a heavy Expend:Aura for military and naval purposes, it can scarcely be expected that weshould impose fresh taxes to meet the warr sinking fund of 1,500,000/, The right hon. gentleman has said with regard to the Exchequer-bonds, that be proposes simply to postpone them, but he must be aware that they do not admit of postponement. They fall due on. at certain day, arid there is nu provision for the payment of these bonds unless the right hon. gentleman takes a vote in Committee of Supply. What the right hon. [gentleman calls postponement is, therefore, in fact, the creation of another loan. (Hear, hear.) Ile can only pay off those Esc:he - per bonds by borrowing, and therefore, instead of postponement, the proposal of the right bon. gentle man w eal lead to the incurring of another unfunded debt to the extent of 2 ,000,000/, for a certain number of years. With reeved to the equalisation of the spirit duties in Ireland and Great Blitain, I can quite confirm the accuracy of what the house seemed to regard as a peradoeieal statement un the part of the Chancellor of tee Exchequer —that great incidental advantages will accrue to the II isi spirit manufacturers from the freedom of iuterc tars,: and the abelitiou of all fiscal restrictions between Ireland and Great Britain. Although it may, no doubt, be inconvenient to the Irish consumers to pay an additional duty upon spirits, the Irish spirit trade ev:11 thrive great incidental benefit from the equalisation of duties. It is a perfectly fair proposition which the r girt hoe. gentleman has laid before the committee, and I trust that he will not consent to any application for a postponement of the resolution—(near, heer)— inasmuch as any delay in a matter of iris sort would afford an opportun ty for taking spirits out of bond, and thereby make a considerable diminuiion iu the revenue which the Exche cpasr would receive during the present year. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, if the committee are to come to a conc'usion upon the subject, I would strongly advise them to canto to that conclusion to-night, with out agreeing to defer the question till souse nature day 0 ( l f jaetipr,rehsenai vg o hear.) would the l d a takel r s i o ghth tehn. gentleman the presentgen emanand u opportunityt•