The Sun. — London, England, 1860-03-07 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARL LAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS-(YESTERDAY.) The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack st five o'clock. NICE AND SAVOY. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH asked how it was that in the correspondence respecting the proposed annexation of Savoy and Nice to France, recen tl y laid o n the table, no mention was made of any negotiations between this coun try and Russia, Austria, and Prussia ? The Duke of NEWCASTLE sa id he had no difficulty in answering the question of the noble earl. The views of her Majesty's Government had been tran.smitted to the three Powers mentioned by the noble earl. Thosee communica tions consisted of the despatches addressed y Lord John Russell to Lord Cowley, and also the answers written thereto by Lord Cowley. The dates of the despatches re ceived from Lord Cowley were the 28th of cat Jion toanuary and the 13th of February. The communi Berlin was dated th e 13th of February, and that to St. Petersburgh the 25th of the same month. The Earl of DERBY asked if a despatch alluded to by Lord Cowley in one written by him on the 25th could bs given to the house. It was not at present included in the correspondence produced. The Due of NEWCASTLE said the despatch was looked up on as of no importance, but there could be no objection to its production. Lord WODEHOUSE laid the despatch in question on the table. THE NEW FRENCH TREATY. The Duke of NEWCASTLE said, in consequence of the adjournment of the debate on this subject in the other house, the motion for an address to her Majesty on the part of their lordships would be postponed unil Thursday week. PRIVATE BUSINESS. On the motion of Lord REDESDALE, the following bills were read a third time and passed :—The Belfast and Ballymena Railway, Carrickfergus and Lame Railway, and Great Northern and Western Railway (Ireland). IRISH RAILWAYS. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE presented a petition against the Grand Canal, Midland Great Western and Great Southern and Western Railways Bill. The noble marquis said he should, when the bill came before their lordships, give it his most determined opposition. The Earl of LUCAN considered the bill a most mis chievous one, and he trusted their lordships would inter pose and not allow the bill to pass to a private committee. Lord MONTAGUE said he had a great many commu nications from Ireland on this subject, but in not one of them was there a word in favour of the measure. The bill was certainly a public one, and ought not to be considered in a private committee. The petition was then ordered to lie on the table. The Dwellings for the Labouring Classes (Ireland) Bill was read a second time. The Attorneys and Solicitors BM was read a second time. Lord MONTEAGLE moved for certain returns con nected with the moral and religious progress of our Indian dominions as promoted by statute. The house then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER. took the chair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following bills were read a third time and passed : Brecon and Merthyr Tydfil Junction Railway, and Llan gollen and Corwen Railway. The West Dorset Railway Bill was read a second time. NEW WRIT. On the motion of Mr. BEARD, a new writ was ordered far the borough of Worcester, vacant byMr. Laslett having since his election accepted the stewardship of the Chiltern Huidreds.—Ordered. SAVOY AND NI FRANCE. THE TREATY WITH FR Mr. KINGLAKE gave notice that on Mon day next he would move that a humble address be presented to her Majesty, thanking her Majesty far having ordeied to be laid .on the table the correspondence relative to the annexation of Savoy and Nice. Also that a humble address be presented to her Majesty expressing, on the part of that house, the deepest concern at the contemplated annexation of these. provinces, and thanking her Majesty for the part she had taken, in concert with the other powers of Europe, in reference to this subject, which had caused the greatest alarm and distrust in Europe. (" Hear, hear," from the Opposition benches.) of Wellington when he laid down his sword after 15 ytarjl commanding, and five years older than Napoleon when his sword was broken at Waterloo. A man above the ege of 60 was no longer c a p ab l e of commanding a regiment in the field. He contended that both seniority and purchase had failed. What th;!T now required was a course of selec tion. The Duke of W anton felt this so strongly that he issued an order that any a_qcer who gave a su m be y ond the regulation price for a commiss-lon should be instantly cashiered, yet though he had a stout 11:. a he was entirely defeated ; and now it wasrt lard adstdrZif will that commissions should be sold at certain fixed pr:,!'es, while it was well known that every commission was sold at from 50 to 100 per cent. above the regulation price. The purclu: s e system included two classes—one, that of young men of large fortune, who went into the army and were quite will ing to put themselves in the very front of danger. And it was a very good thing for those young men to be brought up in such a school, but it was not a good thing for the army; for, with their largeness of heart and fulness of pocket, they introduced such a spirit of extravagance into the army that sober people were afraid to trust their sons in the cavalry regiments on account of the expense. A second class consisted of young men with brave hearts and clear heads, who sacrificed their all to acquire promotion. Valuable and brave officers they were ; but the time came at last when they wished to retire, after attaining the rank of major-general. The allowance would be £5OO or £6OO, but many of them refused to take it, and the n the y got perhaps double that sum, in order that they might be able to recoup the money they had spent. (No.) What occurred in the navy ? In the navy undoubtedly promotion was slow, but there were degrees of retirement ; and promotion, though slow, was yet much more rapid than in the army. The hon. gentleman concluded by seconding the motion, Capt. L. VERNON proposed an amendment as follows : —" That whereas the promotion in the seniority corps al ready existing, viz., the Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers, and Royal Marines, being of an unsatisfactory character, this house is of opinion that it is not desirable to extend the seniority system to the whole of the army." He contended that the seniority system was not one of such unmixed I good for the army as some hon. gentlemen supposed ; senior officers could not be persuaded to die in order that junior officers might get promotion. The Artillery, the Royal Engineers, and the Royal Marines, comprised a body of 40,000 men. Well, the house would remember that peace was the rule, and war the exception. In peace the subaltern served twenty-four years before he arrived at the rank of captain. What, then, became the position of those men who passed nearly half a century of their prime of life in the condition of subalterns, following the beat of drum from ' colony to colony, to Canada and to India, without eomfort, and what was worse, without hope—for hope, which comes to most men, never came to them. What was the conse quence ? When war came the senior officers were worn out. In the Peninsula the Duke of Wellington found his most efficient officers in the artillery and engineers among the captains and second lieutenants ; and in the Crimean war the colonels of engineers one after another broke down and failed physically, and the whole work was left to second captains and lieutenants. (Hear.) Was that the condition to which they wished to reduce the British army? In the slang of the day it was said that the "upper ten thousand" monopolised commissions in the army. But if any one looked down the Army List he would find for one Plantagenet fifty representatives of the houses of ,Smith, Brown, Jones, and Co., and for one of the aristocracy fifty of those who were connected 'with commerce, and even with trade. From his own experience, one of the " fastest" men he ever knew in the army was the son of a Scotch upholsterer—(a laugh)—and the wiliest dragoon he ever saw was the son of a country attorney. (Laughter.) The hero of Lucknow was the son of a baptist minister ; Sir J. Elly bad risen from a trooper to command the Blues, and Brigadier Cureton, who so gallantly led the 14th Light Dragoons at Chillianwallah, enlisted as a pri vate soldier. Look at the seniority system in India. The prices given in India for commissions were very nearly the same as for those in the Queen's service. In the French army, again, the system was one-third seniority, one-third merit, and one-third favour. During the Crimean war some wounded English and French officers were coming home in a transport. One of the English officers said to a French officer, for officers were always talking of promotion, " Ah, your's is the service, for there a fellow has a chance of pro motion 1" " Erreur !" exclaimed the French officer. " Er reur! Pour avancer chez nous it faut avoir pour parent un Ministere de la Guerre." (A laugh.) In the French ser vice, if an officer did not attain a certain rank in a certain time he was turned adrift to live as he best could. (Hear, hear.) He thought that the military system of the French was one of the reasons why France was so aggressive. They pre ferred war to peace, because war to them was bread and peace starvation. (Hear.) It was said that no one under the system could get promotion by merit alone. Was that so ? He should give a remarkable instance of the contrary ; and if he put the hon. and gallant general who introduced this subject to the pain of hearing his "own merits men tioned in his presence, he could assure him he did so only because he felt it was necessary for his argu ment. Tho hon. and gallant member here read an extract, briefly detailing the services of the gallant general from the summer of 1814, when he accompanied General Ross's expedition to America, as Lieut. Evans, to the month of February or March, 1815, when he became lieutenant colonel, thus rising from the rank of lieutenant to that of lieutenant-colonel in the short space of six months, without the expense of a single shilling. (Hear, hear.) With all the merit in the world, with all the merit of the gallant general, it would be impossible for him to have obtained such promo tion in a seniority corps. (Hear, hear.) He would have remained a captain, and could never get beyond it. (Hear.) It was not a disadvantage, in his opinion, for a poor but me ritorious officer to be in a regiment where purchase was going on, because the officers with money purchased and put themselves out of his way till he arrived at the top of the tree. (Hear.) A man who served eight years in the army might attain the rank of lieutenant-colonel under the Queen's regulations, but he himself had served 24 years as a subaltern artillery officer, and nine of them as an ensign —that was to say he spent a longer time in the lowest rank than an officer in the army might attain to the rank of lieutenant-colonel, (Hear, hear.) There was a morbid feeling in the country that the purchase system admitted blockheads, whilst it excluded men of merit. Then the argument was carried a step further, and it was said that blockheads only purchased, and that men of merit had no chance whatever. The best answer to that argument was to compare the deeds of the - 13ritish army with those of any army where the purchase system did not exist--the French for example. He was not going to dispute the merits or the glory of the French army—that glory was recorded in a triumphal arch at the top of a dusty road called the Ely sian fields. (Laughter.) He did not know with what feel ings other foreigners might look on that record of their de feats, but he confessed he looked upon it with considerable complacency. Coruna, indeed, was inscribed upon it ; but that he thought, must be a mistake because he believed that they had won that battle, and that Moore died in the arms of victory. (Hear, hear.) However that might be, let him compare our army with that of France. In the Pen insular war it had six years of continual success. The im perial conqueror of Europe led on at Austerlitz, Wagram. Jena, and Marengo, Moreau, Marmont, Massena, who - was styled "l'enfant cheri de la victoire." Nay, Suchet,Victor, Soult, were met by Graham, Crawford, Beresford, Paken ham, Picton, and Hill, and they outmarched them, they out fought them, they out-generaled them, they met them hand to hand and foot to foot, and drove them from Lisbon to the gates of Paris. Then came the crowning: field of glorious Waterloo, where the star of Napoleon, the genius of merit, sank before that of Wellington, the genius of purchase. (Cheers.) With the exception of Graham and Picton, all these men were under the ago of 40 at the time, which was about the age of a subaltern officer in a seniority corps. (Hear, hear.) Whilst it was not for him to advise what was the best system for the army, he might venture to de nounce as the worst that under which he himself and others had groaned for years—the seniority system. (Cheers.) Cl he r o es e e ne Colonel under DICKSON, great dis a in dv a s n e t c a o g n e d , i ef n g t e t r h e t h a e m e a nd dd m r e e s n s t , 0 f sa h i i d s hon. and gallant friend, who not only impressed the house by his eloquence but proved the justice of his cause. (Hear, hear.) He fear e d th e h on. and gallant - genera l b roug h t forward this question more on account of the private opinion he entertained than out of zeal for the service in which he had risen to such deserved distinction. He regretted that the hon. and gallant general had drawn an invidious . dis tinction between the cavalry an d artillery. He believed the conduct of the British caval r y a t Balaclava would re main for ever en graven in the memory of the nation. (Hea r.) The artillery consisted of m than the ore seasoned m en ca valry, and therefore it was no wonder that they were able at a pinch to perform more extra duty. Ho regretted the tone adopted by the press in reference to this subject. He should not have alluded to the press on that occasion were it not far an arable which he read that day, which appeared to have been written for the purpose of putting some pres sure on the Secretary for War, and trying to guide the Go vernment to a decision in this matter which he believed would be prejudicial to the army and the country. He be lieved that every class in the country were highly indebted to the press, and that they owed the saving of the army in the Crimean war to the press. But occasionally there were letters in various portions of the press which dis played such ignorance of the subjects onwhich they treated that no one who wished to come toa right and unprejudiced decision should yield to what he theme read. That British officers were nothing but fashionable idlers, and that the' younger officers were encouraged in a course of reckless ex travagance by the colonels was utterly unfounded and un true. (near, hear.) At the same time hewas ready toadmit that some abuses had crept in during a long peace; but there was a wide difference between removing abuses and destroying a system altogether. He believed that the"pur chase system, if it raised the rich officer, helped also to raise the poor officer with him. The purchase system enabled officers who had but little means to place their families in a position of comparative competency and com fort. The hon. and gall tnt general said it would require £4,000,000 to compensate the officers who have purchased, but he maintained that these officers were entitled. in justiee to the purchase money which they paid beyond the regnla tim. price. (Oh, oh.) That money was given with the con nivance ance of the authorities. The Duke of Wellington had two sons in the army; Sir 11. Harding° had also sons in the a rmy, and they allowed and paid money beyond the re- ......--- gulation. price. It would be unjust therefore merely to allow the 'regulation price. - The hoti. gentleman - the Secretary at War, adopteda propar, a judicious, and a satis factory course in assimilating the price in the cavalry and infantry. (Hear, hear.) He only regretted that the benefit was not to be realised at once. It was impossible for any man to live on the mere pay of a cornet. The purchase money of a cornetcy was £450 ; outfit and regimentals would cost £100; horses, £lOO, making the purchase-money really amount to 2650. His pay was only £146 a year ; from which was to be deducted the expense of forage, batman, _ __ _ saddlery, wear and tear of horses, mess, and band—all of which, at the most reasonable computation, would amount to LB7. His eating and drinking would at the least cost 55., J . !. 68. a day. Therefore, without making any allowance for clothes, comforts, or luxuries, there was a deficiency of o b Unless they made a considerable increase in cl a t ou , t s sd , the pay of the officers of the army, which, he apprehended, the country was not prepared to make. Unless they were prepared to increase the pay of the army, they could not induce poor men to enter cavalry regiments. He admitted that the new regulations made the service more economical than formerly, and that the officers could live cheaper. Nevertheless, it would require something beyond their pay to support them. He had heard a great deal of army extra vagance, but he could truly say from his own experience— having served in cavalry and infantry, and having been a member of what were termed crack corps—that he never knew a single case of an officer ruined by extravagance of the mesa, though there were, no doubt, many cases of offi cers being ruined by extravagance and vice incurred without the barrack walls. But the parents of these young men blamed the regiment for all these evil results. But, after all, how few were the cases of misconduct on the part of indivi dual officers. Such misconduct could not be concealed, and it was obvious to everybody that the cases before the tribunals of the country where officers in the army were accused were few indeed. The honour of the British army stood too high to admit of such accusations. (Hear.) What would be the effect of abolition of purchase ? Why one of the very first effects would be that that which could not be done directly would be done indirectly the moment purchase was abolished. The truth was, whatever men wanted they would offer money for, and when men had anything they wished to dispose of they would accept of money, nor could they for instance prevent the officers of a regiment privately sub scribing to purchase a man out.. The system prevailed in the Indian army ; it notoriously prevailed in the militia, for militia commissions were every day hawked about as they were in the line. He had heard re • cently of an adjutant of militia who had repeatedly re fused £2,500 for his commission. Why throw away so large a sum of money by the abolition of the present system, when a much smaller amount, properly distributed, would contribute considerably to the welfare and comfort of the service ? Abolish the system as they would, purchasewould creep in ultimately in some shape or another. (Hear.) Remarks had been made upon the scarcity of cornets in the present day. One of the reasons for that scarcity un doubtedly was that the examinations were what he should term absurdly severe. (Hear.) The very feelings which induced young gentlemen to enter the army—the very ocha , racteristics which stamped them as best fitted for the prfes sion, were those least compatible with the present system • of examination, which exacted close study and a knowledge of the most intricate questions. (Hear.) He did not see Why a certificate of having attained a certain position at a , public school should not be received as a perfect qualifica , tien. He had read one or two opinions given in evidence before the Royal Commission. First of all, he was sur prised to hear the hon. and gallant gentleman opposite . (General Evans) complain of the style of evidence given before that commission because he (Colonel Dickson) . thought the officers gave their evidence in a straightfor ward way. Surely the evidence of the Commander•in- Chief was as candid and unexceptionable as any evidence could be. Lord Grey expressed himself as having strong , doubts to the policy of competitive examinations. He did not think those examinations a proper test of qualities the , most important in a soldier. Sir Benjamin Brodie in an L interesting work expressed himself of opinion that the fore , ing of the youthful mind was most injurious—that this , was demonstrated in the French service, where diseases of , the brain were often the result. (Hear.) He was almost afraid to refer to the French army, whose example was ! always crammed down their throats, but what was the ex perience of the two armies in the Crimea ? He was aware that owing to pecullar,circurastances our military system at first bioke down, but when they found out their deficiencies, day by day, week by week, the system was improved, until we became entirely superior to that of France, which, as we succeeded, decayed in the same proportion ; so much so, that he believed they could not continue the war, and he thought this country was obliged to' conclude a premature peace, because France could not continue the war in the manner it had commenced. What carried us through many of our most glorious victories but this same so much decried regi mental system. (Hear, hear.) One remedy proposed was that of selection. Now, whatever might be the fate of this motion, that was a principle against which he must utterly protest. It was a system which if adopted must ruin the British army ; it was a system which no officer cupid carry out ; it was impossible for any Commanding officer to decide who ought to be promoted and who ought not. The Duke of Cambridge said he should be sorry to see any partial change ; a change should be complete or should not take place at all— for a partial change would lead to doubt and insecurity. If they did away vi ith the purchase system the next day they would have an indirect purchase and sale going on, which would lead to great mischief. It would be impossible for a Commander-in-Chief to make selections without exciting great discontent. (Hear.) Then, how was a Commander in-Chief to act as regarded regiments on foreign service ? Even at home there might be two regiments in garrison ; the colonel of one of those regiments wished to retire, the major of the other might happen to be a relative. How was the Commander-in-Chief to act in such a case without excit ing the suspicion l of jobbing ? (Hear, hear.) Of course he would leave the power of veto in the hands of the Commander ' in -Chief, in order to prevent the promotion of undeserving men, but to suppose that the Commander-in-Chief could act on the principle of selection was, he ref eated, absurd and impracticable. The great body of the British army was moved by an esprit de corps—which, if destroyed, would de stroy their efficiency. Those regiments who had performed the most brilliant actions were noted for their esprit de corps—that it was which sustained them at Inkermann, when every individual felt that the reputation of his regi ment depended upon him. (Cheers.) The gallant officer concluded by thanking the house for the attentive audience they had given to him. Mr. P. O'BRIEN thought it would have been more dis creet if her Majeity's Government had abstained under the circumstances of a pending treaty from making invidious allusions to the French service. Why should the purchase system be any more necessary here than it was in France Austria, or Prussia? He regretted to hear that of late in public schools and colleges mathematics and the science of mechanics had been discouraged in order to encourage classi cal learning. To the latter he was no enemy, but though t a knowledge of projectiles might be more useful to a military man than arma virumque cano. Sir F. SMITH observed that it was with great pain he differed with the hon. and gallant member for Westminster, and especially on a question so closely connected with the army. They were both soldiers, and he could only say he had watched the progress of the hon. and gallant member enthusiastic v of r y h i r s o a d o t m o i f r e t r h s 0 . B B r u i t t i t s h h i s a r w m a s y , a a q n u d e with great admiration, and was, indeed, amongst the most h s t e i o f n el t whichsu re that in the hands of the right hon. gentleman the Minister for War it would receive that attention which it deserved. The hon. and gallant member for - Westminster spoke in so low a tone that he was unable to hear many of his .obser vation ; but this he (Sir F. Smith) must say, that he could never be made to understand how it could be possible to mix up the three systems together of pur chase, and seniority, and selection, and have any other result thtus the most utter confusion, It must be one of the three. Lord Panmure, in his evidence before the Royal Commission, said it would ba utterly impossible to carry on the administration of the British army on the principle of selection. Take the case of a captaincy being vacant. -The right hon. gentleman the Secretary for War is to appoint his successor. There were ten lieutenants candidates for the vacancy. What was to be the test of fitness P In time of peace a soldier might have most excellent qualities which it was impossible to discover. (Hear.) Was the test to be science or drill, or what was it to be ? Well, then, say he selected the fifth. What heartburning and discontent amongst one, two, three, and four. (Hear, hear.) Why, in stead of harmony discord would prevail, and every regimen tal mess would be a hell upon earth. (Hear.) That was how it would act in the case of a single regiment. But give the principle a wider range, and attempt to apply it through out the army—that the most fitting man, according to what ever test might be devised, should have the vacancy. Well, but some regiments where there might be men of equal or superior fitness were in India, some in the West Indies, some in Canada, some at home—how was the Secretary for War to act in such a case ? Would it not be simply impos sible. He defied him unless all the candidates were together to say which would be the most eligible. Wbo was to say what should be the proportion of home, what of colonial service. It would b e lik e mu lti p lyi ng p oun d s , s hillings, and y c were, e y r ve believed e d t i h u e e l) vyo avoirdupois. thatr(eL p a u trho g ed h u t sc e yi r ns . ) tge inHa,e particularlyg r e said at leave etfihtsi to h s the (Las service.pthe that which the Government were now pursuing, would make the finest regimental system in the world, and that they would have the best staff officers in existence. The Government were going on in the right way, and he hoped they would persevere. (Hear, hear.) Captain JERVIS said he believed the intention of the hon. and gallant general was to open up the army to the middle classes more than it was at present. Now, if they lid that the house must first see whether the country would grant the money which would be necessary. it should be remembered that the system of purchase and sale provost, d a great many pensions of late years, and without much in quiry the house would not, be able to state what would be the extent of the pension list if they did away with the purchase of commissions. (Hear, hear.) Now let the house consider the middle classes as they were. They knew that if a man wished to place his son out in the world he gave him a good education, and obtained for him a position from which he could advance himself to something better. But let the house look at the amount of pay in the army, and ask whether a man could subsist upon it or not. (Hear.) 'The honThaid - gallant member then gave the sums paid an- - nually to the different grades of officers, and stated that the pay of a lieutenant-colonel was only 1.310 a year. He would ask whether any man having any affection for his children would place them in a position where they would only get such a small sum at so late an age as 35 or more, with all the expenses attending it. (Hear.) Now he be . ieved that if the house did away with the system of pur- chase they must increase very considerably the pay, for no man would be able to support himself and be free from debt. (Hear, hear.) lie woa►ld mention that England was the place where an officer was free of expense, because he was nobody ; but when abroad the expenses were consi derably increased, and he when receiving only £7 a month had been obliged to expend £l7 or more. The hon. and gal- [ant member then referred to the pay in the civil service, and stated that a young man entering that service at 18 or 20 years of age, at a hundred a year, could go on till he ob tained £6OO or £BOO a year. He further referred to the fact that a subaltern in the army had to move about from place to place, which of course added to his expenses. As an instance of how little a man could save in the army, he might state that Sir Charles James Napier, on reaching Bombay at the age of 60 years, and after having filled a great many staff situations, possessed only £2 after all his expenses were paid. (Hear, hear.) He believed that the purchase system had been no bar to the commercial classes going into the army. (Hear, hear.) As to the seniority system, an hon. and gallant officer had stated that twenty feur years as a subaltern was about the average ; but as that branch of the service to which he belonged had been doubled in late years, he had received promotion after 16 years' service ; but they could not always be going on at the same rate. (Hear, hear.) To open up the army for the middle classeS was a question of money; and unless the house was prepared to pass a resolution to that effect, and make good the sum which would be required, he must vote against the motion of the hon. and gallant member. (Hear.) Col. LINDSAY said he had watched the system of pur chase for many years, and he believed it operated well for the service and the public. The hon. and gallant member referred to the evidence given by Capt. M'Pherson before the commissioners, and it was to the effect that that gallant officer had been passed over 18 times, and he himself ac knowledged that if there had been no system of purchase he would have been for it much longer period in the posi tion of captain. He (Col. Lindsay) was quite willing to admit that if it could be surely proved that the system of purchase was vicious in principle and not for the benefit of the army or the public good, the house ought to abolish it —(hear, hear)—and come forward and repay the money already sunk by the officers in the service. (Hear, hear.) But he thought no case had been shown to the house why they should vote such a large sum for such a purpose. (Hear, hear.) He believed the system of purchase was a most efficient system, both for the army and the public good—(hear, hear) and he had not heard a word pro pounded which had altered his views. He knew that pro motion without purchase had been granted to a very consi derable extent. In the space of 211 years before the Crimean war, 428 officers arrived on an average of 25 years at the position of lieut.-colonel, while those by purchase arrived at the same grade in 22 years and 8 months. He thought that was sufficient to show that the system of purchase was useful in giving youth and vigour to the ranks of the army. Again, he might observe that the system of purchase had been beneficial to the poor man as well as to the State. In the French army there was a system of compulsory retirement at certain ages and at certain rates of pay. A lieutenant-general retired at sixty five years of age on a pension of from £3OO to £350 per annum ; a lieutenant • colonel at 62, on a pension of from £l2O to £150; a cap tain at 53, on a pension of from £9O to £lOO ; the sums varied according to length of service. (Hear, hear.) He could not conceive it possible that such a system could exist in the British army. The idea of a major being obliged to retire at 56 years of age, and a captain at 53, was absurd. The system of purchase was quite compatible with the principle of examination. (Hear.) He spoke from expe rience, because he had the honour of commanding a bat talion, and he had conducted an examination of officers. Before entering the army the candidates were examined by a board of examiners, but he thought that in many in stances the questions were utterly absurd. (Hear, hear.) He would repeat that, if the present system of retirement from the army was wrong, it would be the duty of the house to find a large sum of money for the purpose of alter ing it. (Hear.) The total number of officers of the army on retired full pay was 8,167, the amount they received £56,714. On the other hand, the number of such officers of the seniority corps of the Royal Artillery was 1,072, and the amount received by them £32,232, being only £24,000 less than the amount received by eight times the number of officers of the army. The retired pay must therefore be enormous if they wished to have an exodus out of the various ranks of the army which would secure efficiency. No doubt merit ought to be the ground of reward ; but in time of peace merit was a very difficult thing to ascertain ; and the merits of the best officers could not be discovered till they were displayed in the field. It might appear a singular argument, but he certainly thought there was a certain amount of control and discipline connected with the system of purchase. Men knew that they had embarked a certain amount of capital in the service, and that knowledge exer cised a certain degree of control over them. The system of purchase had stood the test of both peace and war, and he believed it promoted the efficiency of the army, and was ler the public good. Col. P. HERBERT felt great regret at being obliged to oppose the gallant general (Sir De L. Evans) on a military question ; but lie must say that on a subject like that, which excited general attention among large constituencies who had not much acquaintance with it, he should rely more on the gallant general's opinion if he was further removed from Westminster. He understood him to say that in the Crimea the horses of the artiilery suffered in a much greater proportion than those of the cavalry. Sir DE L. EVANS said he stated the reverse. Col. P. HERBERT said the artillery lost, he believed, comparatively speaking, quite as many horses as the cavalry. Certainly that was the case as regarded the two batteries which were under the personal command of the gallant general himself. The 360 horses with which the force be gun was reduced to 40 or 50. (Hear, hear.) He hoped the house would not allow itself to be carried away by the opinions of officers of foreign armies. In conversation with such persons he had found them under an impression that in this country a rich man was able to purchase commis sions over the head of any one who had not as much money as himself—in fact, that the commissions were all obtained by the highest bidders ;, and when he explained to them that their promotion was a strictly seniority one, and that if the officer otherwise entitled could pay a certain amount, no one could purchase over his head, their opinion of the system seemed at once to be modified. He was willing to rest the defence of the purchase system on the grounds of the efficacy of the service and public economy. Hethought no one, would deny that, generally speaking, it was desir able that officers of all grades should be in the vigour of life, but at the same time the house must consider what would be the cost of the retirement which would be neces • sary to keep up the system of promotion. Take the case of the East India Company's army. The retirement on full pay as captain was allowed in it after 18 years' service, and as major after 22 years' service; yet the pro motion in that army was before the mutiny lamentably slow among officers of all ranks. The system of purchase existed in the East India Company's service, which was a remark ably oppressive one, and he believed that many young offi cers had been forced into debt by that which was not dis tinctly optional, as it is in f our own army. (Hear, hear.) As regarded the Royal Artillery and Engineers, between 1830 and 1840, several subalterns were promoted to be cap tains, after from 20 to 22 years' service, and several con tinued captains after from 20 to 29 years' service. Was that, he asked, a system - to which the house wished to reduce the rest of the army? (Hear, hear.) He admitted that the case of old and meritorious officers was deserving of consi deration, but in point of fact it was considered at the Horse Guards, and it should be borne in mind that such persons entered the service, well knowing to what system they were to be subjected. Thegrounds upon which he placed his op position were those of efficiency and economy to the public service, as he believed that if the motion were successful it would affect both in a most injurious manner. Mr. S. HERBERT said that the subject which they had been called on to discuss was one of the most complicated and difficult that could be well submitted to their consideration and it would be wise in coming to it, if they first attempted c;early to understand and to define the questions which they were about to discuss. He agreed inthe abstract proposition that seniority was in itself a bad system of promotion ; but when they used that expression it seemed to imply that it was something unknown to our present system, and which never had baen had recourse to. But the fact was, they had several distinct corps, which, although said to be governed on different principles, still kept up this practice. They had the cavalry and infantry of the line, the two scientific corps, and the Indian army, all of which were seniority corps, but ith this difference, that in the Queen's service the system -was accelerated by purchase, and in the Indian army it was seniority only. In sll, the man who stood next to a death vacancy got it, and the first man got the first chance of pur chase. Still it was seniority, but seniority modified or ac celerated by purchase. But there was no subject so much overlaid with arguments which were not tenable, and with statements of gross exaggeration, as was this question of purchase. He had been sorry to bear the hon. and gallant member for Westminster making such extravagant asser tions against the system. (Hear.) He was not sure that his gallant kinsman opposite had paid attention to one of the statements of the hon. and gallant member, viz., that the loss of horses by the cavalry in the Russian war was owing to purchase, whilst the immunity of the artillery horses must be set down to the absence of purchase in that corps. (A. laugh.) On the other hand, they had been told that pur chase won the battle of Waterloo, and it was confidently asserted that the spirit of our army was derived solely front this artificial system. But the gallant member for Westmir ster went further in an opposite direction, for he said that not only was purchase incompatible with education, but that money and education were perfectly antagonistic. That was a great social, moral, and educational discovery, but it was ono he must say he could not bow to, (Hear, hear.) He, on the contrary, s 4 hould be inclined to say that poverty and ignorance went together, inasmuch as that education must cost money, and that money was most COAL Mr. HORSMAN gave notice of his intention to move for the omission of the 11th article relating to coal from the commercial treaty with France:. (Opposition cheers.) _ THE BALLOT. Mr. H. BERKELEY gave notice that, on the 22d inst., he would move that, in futuie, the election of mem bers to serve in Parliament should be taken by ballot. (Hear, hear.) LUNACY (SCOTLAND) AND REFORM (SCOT - LAND). Mr. STIRLING asked the Lord Advocate, in the ab sence of the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to introduce into Parliament, in the present session, any Bill to amend the Lunacy (Scotland) Act. He also asked why the Reform Bill for Scotland had not been placed in the hands of members up to this time, notwithstanding that the Reform Bills for England and Ireland had already been trinted and issued. Sir G. C. LEWIS said, with respect to the first ques tion, that a bill on the subject alluded to was under the con sideration of the Lord Advocate, and would shortly be in troduced. Some delay had,unavoidably arisen with respect to the printing of the copies of the bill, but it would be placed in the hands of hon. members to-morrow. CAVALRY OFFICERS. In reply to Sir H. STRACEY, Mr. S. HERBERT said that questions and answers on this subject would not make the house wiser, as the matter was very intricate and unintelligible. A cavalry officer not having received the difference in question, would not be obliged to pay the same. - - - LORD COWLEY'S DESPATCH.-SAVOY AND- NICE Lord J. RUSSELL laid on the table the despatch from Lord Cowley, relative to the annexation of Savoy and Nice, which had been moved for on the 24th Jan. last. Sir J. WALSH wished to ask the noble lord whether it was intended to produce any additional papers which had been received by Government on this subject ? Lord J. RUSSELL was not prepared to say that the papers alluded to were in a state to be laid on the table at present. Mr. DISRAELI asked whether the private letter of Lord Cowley would be produced ? Lord J. RUSSELL said he could not then inform the right hon. gentleman. SALE AND PURCHASE OF ARMY COMMIS SIONS. Sir DE LACY EVANS moved that an humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that she would be gra ciously pleased, to order the gradual abolition, as soon as practicable, of the sale and purchase of commissions in the army (having due regard in doing so to existing rights), with the view of substituting for the purchase system, pro motion partly by seleetioni partly by seniority, grounded on war services of merit, length of colonial and home services, ant attested professional fitness, under such regulation% as her Majesty shall be pleased to direct. The hon. and gal lant officer proceeded to address the house, but in so low and indistinct a tone of voice that we could not frequently even guess at his meaning He was understood to say that he did not propose ro abolish the purchase of commissions at once, but asked the house, as a beginning, to carry out the recommendations of the Royal Commission, and to go a very slight degree further in the march of what he conceived to be reform in our military system. It was well known to the house that many members of the commission, including, he believed he might say, the right hon. gentleman the pre sent Secretary for War, were desirous of going a little fur ther, and of including lieutenant-colonels and majors in the non-purchasing ranks. Taking a series of three years, it appeared that in the first a sum of £67,000 was paid for the commissions of those two ranks of officers ; in the next series a sum of £65,000, and in the third a sum of £53,500. They might assume that to be the ratio of decrease. The hon. and gallant member was understood to complain of a system which enabled the incompetent to take the place of the competent. He had known able and meritorious officers freqUently passed over although strongly recommended for promotian. The hon. and gallant gentleman then, as un derstood, referred to the conduct and operations of the army in the Crimea, and the subsequent inquiry at Chelsea, and to the system of exchanges in the army, which he con demned, but not a single complete sentence of the hon. and gallant member's observations reached the gallery, although he was frequently interrupted by hon. mem bers, sitting around him, telling him to speak up. The hon. and gallant member proceeded to read, in an extremely low tone, various returns and documents, from which he was understood to infer that the competitive system hav ing worked so well in the civil department in this country and in the army in France, might•with great success be in- troduced into the British army. The artillery had been most efficient during the Crimean war, and had preserved most of their horses, whilst the cavalry were almost universally un horsed. The gallant officer next alluded to the vacancies - in the cavalry, there having been 65 cornetcies vacant on the 15th February last. The hon. and gallant gentleman re sumed his seat after having addressed the house for two hours, during which he was almost totally inaudible in the gallery. Mr. RICH, in seconding the motion, said ho did not wish to detract from the merit of offieers who had obtained com- missions, because many of them were men of the highest qualifications, and had done gallant exploits in the field, but the man of money passed over the heads of all the rest what aver their merits, and it therefore became substantially a questionet whether promotion should be secured by money or in Every one had admitted that the present System could defended not be ended in the abstract. The noble lord at the head of the Government said that if the army had to be reorganised he would be strongly opposed to the purchase system, but that it was now difficult to eradicate it. But it was said that the system after all kept up the efficiency of the army. Upon that point he joined issue. urchase system supplied bodies of officers of the right and e fitting the age for the several stations in which they were placed, nh e would admit hat it was good ; but did it do so ? It was useless ne to take e the pre sent state of the army, because in consequence the wars in which we unhappily had been engaged dm ingthe last few years, it had been increased to an enormous extent, and was not in its normal con dition ; but g oin g back to 18517;he )et* l before those great augm entations, he found that the average age of officers was as follows :—Ess!gn and cornet, 21; lieutenant, between 28 and 29 ; captain, 38 ; major, between 43 and 44 : lieutenant-colonel, 49/ ; major general between 68 and 60; lieutenant -general, 65, and a full general, 3. Were those the ages at which officers should arrive at those commands ? At a period preceding 1851 there was not one n'tajor-general under 50, five years older than the laWiuke - THE' !SUN, .k.ri.l)oli, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MARCH 7, DN. readily at the disposal of the easy classes. Again, nothing could be more erroneous than the assumption of the advocates of abolition, that non-purchasing officers were all hard- working men, and that the maii who purchased took no pains with nor interest in his profession. (Hear, hear.) It was also held out by the advocates of abolition that by putting an end to purchase we should get a different class of men into the army from those who now held commissions, that we should get the strong ambitious classes, men who would bring an immense accession of force and energy into the army ; whilst on the other side it was asserted, with equal confidence, that if you get rid of purchase, you would lose the guarantee for your officers being gentlemen. (Cheers.) And he was one of those old -fashioned persons who believes hat the obtaining of gentlemen for the army was a matter of great importance. (Loud cheers.) He believed that in this country, which was not a military nation, and in which therefore habits of military subordination were not general, they could not give up the privilege of having officers to whom men paid a willing obedience. (Cheers.) But he believed that both the assertions were utterly without foun dation. Ho did not believe that if purchase were abolished we should get a different class of men. It was said that the army was an ill-paid profession. So it was in money, but it carried with it position, honours, and social conside ration, and that would always attract a class of men who thought of something besides the pay. (Cheers.) There _ . were the officers of the navy, where purchase was unknown and ho appealed to the military officers present as to whether they were not men of the class to which he had alluded ? (Hear.) Was it true that the army was essentially aristo cratic ? He had heard it said of. the Indian army that it was purely a middle-class institution; but what was the Queen's army if it were not a middle-class institution ? The presence of a few sons of noblemen did not alter its cha- ratter of belonging to the great bulk of the professional and middle classes. Having premised thus much, let him add that he had been a member of the Duke of Somerset's commision, the report of which was drawn up with great ability, and that report gave as fair an account of the advantages and disadvantages of the pur chase system as any one would like to read. But when he came into office, amongst many matters to which his at tention was forcibly called was the actual operation of the purchase system in one arm of her Majesty's service. He did not know why he was accused of inveighing against the purchase system, for he had listened attentively to every scheme that was offered for the purpose of doing away with a great scandal that overlaid the practice of purchase. As to purchase, admitting that it quickened promotion immensely, same one said that purchase did not produce physical vigotsr and that it was not compatible with it. He did not admit the fact, nor did he find it proved before the commission that purchase or no purchase had any effect in introducing physical vigour into the service; but this he believed, that if you abolished purchase, the supplemental mea sures proposed would be utterly insufficient to keep the army in a healthy state. When he entered office he found a controversy going on between the War-office and the Treasury respecting the impossibility of attracting cornets into the service, there being then 60 odd vacancies, or the officers of seven regiments. It was said that it was entirely owing to making men pay their subscriptions in advance, and to making them pay for forage. He then asked the cost of outfit, and the estimates of experienced officers were from £1,500 to 11,700, and he asked whether 17d. a day would frighten away such men who were also in the course of time to pay £17,000 for a lieutenant-colonelcy. This seemed absurd, and he had to look for some other cause. He had listened with great attention to the speech of the hon. and gallant member for Limerick, who said that the cause of this great difficulty was not the price of the com mission, nor the forage, nor the subscription to the band, nor even the expense of messing. It was, the hon. and gallant member said, the expenses outside of the barrack yard. (Hear.) That was true, and the price of the com - * mission had nothing to do with that. It was the expensive amusements of wealthy men, and he need not say that there was nothing so efficacious as sumptuary laws as to such expenses, or as a means of controlling young men. (Hear.) It was the people who incurred those expenses who gave a tone to the regiment, and it was only by reducing this ex• penditure that the tone could be altered. He remembered reading a passage in Carlyle's " Life of Sterling," in which he said schoolmasters took credit for their administration in producing the tone of their schoois. Carlyle said that was all nonsense—it was the boys and not the men that did it, not in obedience to the master, but often in spite of him ; and so it was with officers. (Hear.) It was they who gave the tone to a regiment, and the tone was to try by some means to introduce fresh elements and a sounder public opi nion, to get men who could not afford to lead this sort of life, and see whether then public opinion would not be strong enough to neutralise the others, He was sorry that the gallant officer (Sir De L. Evans) objected to his course, when, on the contrary, he should have approved of it as a step in his own direction, lie (Mr. Herbert) had lowered . the price of cavalry commissions one-third, and two more moves of the same kind would be total aboltion. (A. laugh.) The hon. and gallant member sit that the plan would fail, but he (Mr. Herbert) believed that it would turn out right, as he knew that already there had been many applications for cavalry commissions, and parents were paying to send• their sons from the infantry into the cavalry. What were the abuses of purchase—that purchase which was so much misunderstood both at home and on the continent ? He re membered reading in a French newspaper a review of the life of the late Lord Raglan, in which it was stated that so enthusiastic was the deceased for the welfare of the army that alihough the son of a duke, he refused to enter the service as a colonel, and came in as a mere ensign. (Laugh ter.) In the same way he knew it was thought in England that a rich man going into a rigiment had only to hold up his finger and he got whatever rank he wished—(hear, hear)—following of course the order of the military hier archy, but passing over the heads of those who had not his money. (Hear, hear.) But that was not possible except in the lower ranks, and the whole of the lower ranks benefitted by it. A man, for instance, who had risen from the ranks found the army cleared before him by purchase. He was purchased over, it was true, but not so much as he was pur chased away from. (Hear, hear.) When the first death vacancy came he was ready, and when he obtained it he might sell out, and the purchase money was a small for tune to him. This system might be indefensible, but it was very convenient, and a proper substitute ought to be ob tained before you attempted any sweeping measure. (Hear.) Where were the scandals ? Not in the lower ranks, but in the great prices given for the higher by wealthy men, who wanted station, and power, and position. This was what caused the extravagant prices at which public opinion re volted. There was a case in the Blue-book, given by Lord West—it was that of a colonel who wished to retire whilst his officers were not ready to purchase. He is charged with another regiment where the officers were rich, and then sold out, while his best officers were all deprived of their step. The Duke of Cambridge was blamed for this—(hear, heee: ) —but the fact was that his royal highness laid his . I ' . ands on such proceedings wherever he could diseeve ee the m . H e could not know, however, and it was mr'l - :ths after, perhaps, w lien he found th a t h e h a d b een Consenting to this unfair ' exchange. The system was Complained of with justice, but it was sometimes of advantage to officers who could serve in England, but who could not stand tropical climates, and by it were permitt e d t o exchange with men who were quite willing to go. (Hear.) Let them recollect what was the re commendation of the Duke of Somerset's commission. That commission recommended that in order to check these great men, purchase should not be permitted to go beyond the rank of major, and the reason given was that the purchase of lieutenant-colonel was too important to be trusted to suc ceseion by seniority. The gallant officer was opposed to senio rity. So was he (Mr. S. Herbert). He had always been op posed to it, and he was responsible for the introduction of a system which he fairly admitted had been complained of, that of employing lieutenant-colonels as brigadiers. These things were, of course, disagreeable to the men who had not been selected, but after all the public service was the first thing to be considered, and the public service had cer tainly benefited by the change. The Duke of Cambridge was much opposed to selection, as incurring a responsibi lity which in this country it was impossible to bear. He 'would prefer the seniority regiment, but then seniority often placed a wholly unfit man in the all-important post of the command of a regiment. What said General Simpson ? He had had great experience in inspecting troops. He said,—" T have known several officers who were unequal to the command of the regiments that they held. I cannot say whether they purchased or not." Being asked whether the system of taking officers by seniority would answer, he said it would not ; the remedy was selection, but it would be a very serious and difficult affair to pass over an officer. It was said to be easy for the Commander-in-Chief to exercise a veto on the appointment of an unfit officer. (Hear, hear.) But what could be more invidious than to tell a man, " You are a good officer ; I have no fault to find with you; but there is one still more able, and I must pass him over your head." Or was he to say, " I try you by an absolute standard, and you are so entirely incompetent that I must pass you over ?', (Hear.) Was not that invidious ? (No, no.) It was so invidious that the Commander-in-Chief could not do it. General Simpson said he had known in the course of his life two in stances only of this being done ; but he had known many instances of officers being i nc ompetent for their co mman d . At present officers had an interes t in giving a larger price for a lieut.-colonelcy than for any other rank. General Scarlett was asked his opinion of selection a s a reme d y. lie said there was the greatest objection to these very large stuns being given for the higher ranks. He saw no objeo tion to confining purchase to the lower ranks ; but he pre ferred selection to seniority, and he repeated that the sums given were most injurious to the service. They came to this point. hey had officers in the servic e i n command of regiments who, having arrived at them by seniority, were not equal to the commands they held ; they h a d th e opinion of General Scarlett that selection for the higher ranks would remedy that evil ; but they had the practice of the authorities to show that it was impossible, as being too invidious, to pass over a man becanea he w as incornpe7 tent, when they had no certain principles of selection. Very great changes had been made in the system of promotion in the last six years. Formerly an officer who rose to be a captain, and then got a brevet, became lieut.-colonel, colo nel, major-general, and so on, H o m i g h t never have served a day. If he served six years as a field officer, say major he might retire on his half-p a y, or w i thout a single day's ' experience, he might become major-general. It was , possible to imagine a worse system than that. Not only was the officer promoted though he had no service, but in point of fact he had a better chance of promotion than those serving abroad in unhealthy climates. That system was swept away, and instead of it was substituted promotion by service. The rule now was that no man could rise above the rank of lieutenant-colonel unless he served in he rank of lieutenant-colonel For a certain period, orunless he served on the staff tor a certain period. The staff would very soon be cleared of everybody who had not passed throught the Staff College. Numbers of regimental officers never did so; and their only chance of rising to the higher positions of the army would be five years' command of a re giment. How did that opsrate ? Suppose that an officer did not happen to have at his banker's a certain sum of money, he never could rise to the higher ranks. Thus the non purchasing officers, by this system, could be debarred from rising. (No, no.) How was that ? An HoN. MEMBER—They may retire on full pay, or they may rise by death vacancies. Mr. S. HERBERT said that the chance of rising by death vacancies was very small. If that were allowed to become the rule of the British army, it would be an injustice that would be quite intolerable, and it would lower the army as a profession in the eyes of the British people. It was ne cessary to create some means of breaking through that bar rier for men who had not money. This did not apply to the other ranks to the same extent. The view of the commis- sion was, that the cessation of purchase in the higher ranks would open the way to those who had no money, and would check enormously the illegitimate prices given for lower grades, which could only be done by diminishing the temptation. It was said that the danger of selection was very great, on account of favouritism and political pres sure. Some went so far as to say that, in a despotism, you might select the best officer for a particular service, but that in a free country this was impossible. He be lieved that this was a libel upon free institutions. He did not see that necessity. He knew that selection was made in other professions, and made under the influence of public opinion brought to bear upon them by thathouse. All that was meant by the objection was, that the selector would have a very uneasy life. (Hear, hear.) That was true, but at the same time it was a guarantee against the exercise of favouritism or political motives. (No, ne,) At least it was a guarantee to that extent. Look at the Ad miralty. For many years they used to promote from poli tical motives. (Hear, hear.) That was notorious. The feeling of the country revolted against the system ; that house had done much to put it down ; and at the present moment a Minister would not dare to give a man a ship who was not capable of commanding it. But the person who made the selection, the Commander-in-Chief, was not amenable to pelitical influence. Reference had been made to the Secretary of State; but he had no knowledge of the officers, and could not make the selection. Another argument against the system of selection was that it would not only be corrupt, but that it was impossible to make the selection satisfactorily. He doubted that very much. Sir G. Brown said that the Commander-in-Chief had the means of knowing the character, for efficiency and intelligence, of every field officer in the army, if he chose to go to the proper quarter. The same thing had been said by Sir George Simpson, and Lord Panmure had stated that the Commander-in-Chief and his military secretary and the adjutant-general had the opportunity of knowing the character of every field officer in the service. He believed that if there were no sales of lieu tenant-colonelcies it would not stop the rapidity of promo tion. A number of officers entered the army for the purpose of amusing themselves and then leaving it. They remained until they arrived at the rank of major, when they sold out, because they could not sell as lieutenant-colonels. With regard to selection, the Duke of Cambridge had said he could easily select at home, but he had a difficulty about selecting abroad. He (Mr. S. Herbert) fully admitted there was a great difficulty about selecting abroad, but at the same time he thought arrangements could be made to Meet that diffi culty. He had now gone through all the objections raised as to the question of selection for the rank of lieutenant colonel—for abolishing sale in that rank, and for not adopt ing the bugbear of the hon, gentleman opposite with regard to seniority. The best authorities had said that the period of a command in a regiment ought to be limited. The dis tinction drawn by the royal commission was, that it was in the upper ranks that abuses occurred, and that the purchase system in the lower ranks kept the army in a state of youth ful energy and rigour. He had signed his name to the re port of that commission, believing the course proposed was the best to pursue, and he had since seen nothing to change his opinion. Holding that purchase in some ranks was necessary, he believed it was better to abolish it in the upper ranks. Without pledging himself to details, he must say that the principles laid down by the commission were those which the Government acknowledged in dealing * l e, the Part question. It would therefore be his duty to pre a scheme with the greatest care, thought, and caution , and lay it be fore the house and before the military P.,:athorities for their consideration; but beyond the Poi'f t t o w hi c h h e saw his way clearly he would not I ":adge an inch, becau s e he thought this great machin'..—the British arm was not a thing to play with. i jrilear.) Under these circumstances he felt he must tsagree with the motion of the hon. and gallant oftle:a., and also with the amendment—not because he di" not admit seniority was a bad thing, but because he ;,.sought the amendment did not draw a right distinction between what existed in the scientific corps and in the line. Mr. ELLICE said he did not think that the plan pro posed by the right hon. gentleman would meet the diffi culty. He was not willing to touch the existing system by a measure which he believed would only aggravate the evil, and he advised the house to be careful how they gave their eonsent to the proposition of the right hon. gen tleman. The plan was no doubt based on the report of the majority.of the commission; but the minority of that com mission included two generals who believed that the plan proposed would aggravate the evil, and one of these generals had risen to the highest rank without ever having pur chased, and he believed that his promotion had been acce lerated by the system of purchase. This measure was only brought forward to meet the motion of the gallant officer the member for Westminster. His light hon. friend based his opposition on the abuses existing in relation to exchange, and in the way in which officers arrived at the rank of lieutenant-colonel. But since his Royal Highness the present Commander-in-Chief had been at the head of the army these abuses had not existed. Officers with money had consulted the convenience of poorer officers, and had purchaeed commissions which placed them in positions in which the higher ranks fell as it were a prey to them. But the War Office was itself to blame for having sanctioned these proceedings. Would officers purchase in the lower ranks, and then have the favourite of the Horse Guards put over them? As to foreign armies, they weuld do for foreign countries, but not for this country. (Hear, hear.) Take the middle •class, from which the mass of our officers is derived. A clergyman or a lawyer wanted his son to be a soldier, and had £2,000 or £3,000 with which to set him out in life. He knew that if the young gen tleman conducted himself properly, no one could now he placed above him by patronage or by jobber/. (Hear, hear.) No man now could be promoted in the army unless he showed his competency by passing his, examina tions. There were now two examinations fo well as for the navy. F ormer l y there wgn eno examinations in the army, and a man cou ld arrive the army as at the command of a battalion without any one know',: ng whether he was fit for it or not. Th ese examinatt„,, however, had done away with a large proportion . tern of purchase, '-• - of the evil resulting from the sys vur army was exceptional in another way; o ur fore - as were scattered in small detachments in ev erY i. clua r+ ,er of the globe. The officers of those regiments were '-Aappily united by an esp. it de corps. Would it not be I r ijust to these men, many of whom were serving in pesti ferous climates, to put a young man over their heads just because that young man happened to be the protegee of some member of that house. (Hear, hear.) As to the scientific corps, nothing could be worse than its condition six or seven years ago, when most of their captains were 60 years of age. During the Duke of Wellington's campaign in the Peninsula, several superior officers were sent out, and one Captain Dixon was sent out with them. The duke found the superior officers all of them too old ; and, in order to avail himself of the services of Captain Dixon, being a general in the - Portuguese service, and the two armies act ing together, he made Captain Dixon a general in the Por tuguese army ; and placed him in the command of 12,000 men. It must be borne in mind also, that men who were incompetent were far less likely to be appointed under the present system, which involved examinations , Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief had sated that t and his he would certainly not sanction the appointment of an in competent officer if he knew it. It o ught to be provid e d that officers should only retain their command of a regi ment six years ; but if they did this, they must be prepared man ice, etombparrokveiddehliisbemraelnlyeyfoarntdhesmpe.nt ( h H is ea l y if , e h i e n ar t . h ) eir U seary they ought not to deprive him of his reward. There were other difficulties which ought first to be dealt with. H e saw Indian officers walking about discontentedly not know ing who was their master. (Hear, hear.) The fact was that we unsettled very fast, although we settled very slowly. (Hear, hear.) Having said so much, he felt it his duty to add that the army was greatly indebted to the right hon. gentleman ; for, to whatever branch of the army they looked, they would find that his hand had been at work in the right direction, (Hear, hear.) This made him all the more regret that he was obliged to differ from the right hon. gentleman on the present occasion. He en•• was r ea tae ft d e h r i m alltot th c e o n bests i d e p r a t w h a a t a a p ea British regiment themilitary ah o e f s s infantry f the world. (Cheers.) They might find fault and pick holes here and there, but it always did its duty, and they ought to be just to it. Tf they erred at all, it ought to be on the side of generosity. (Cheers.) They ought to show no desire to curtail its privileges and advantages. This was h feeling e o e f n g fi e d n e e n r generosity s t i h a t y t towards e t p h e e s i a t i r e m n particularly a mo men t at which they ought to encourage a hear)—and he received by th e army in general, d, yw—(hear, r Colonel NORTH regretted to hear the conclusion of the speech of the Secretary for War, and could not help think ing that th e sma l l end of the wedge' was to be driven so as to lead sn a very short time to the destruction of a system which he believed most advantageous to the country. This was merely the beginning of the end. They had not the plan of the right hon. gentleman before the house, but it appeared that for the future the only prospect an officer of the army would have was that he might obtain the rank of major. However bad the present system might be in a money point of view, he held that it was still worse to have to look to the patronage of Men in power. (Hear, hear.) He did not understand how the officers were to be selected. He especially objected to doing away with purchase in the army, because of the way in which it would affect the interests of as brave and good a body of men as were to be found in the world—the non commissioned officers. (Hear, hear.) How could these officers accept commissions if the system of purchase was abolished ? Was it worth their while for the sake of an ad ditional ls. or ls. 3d. a diy to accept a commission which, in nine eases out of ten would bring ruin on them ? They could not meet the expenses which such a commission would entail upon them ; and the only reason why non commissioned officers accepted commissions was that, being often married men, they looked upon the commission which was worth about £l,BOO as a fortune which would enable them to provide for their families. ("Hear," and Divide.") Lord STANLEY did not wish to continue the discus sion, but merely to express a hope that the house would not think it necessary to go to a division, which could not really convey the intentions of those who voted on either side. He was a member of the commission which sat four years ago, and no man entered into the inquiry with stronger convictions than himself of the anomalies and inconve niences of the purchase system considered as a general ques tion, but he could not but see that to attempt its total aboli tion in all grades of the army was a work of very great diffi culty, attended with enormous expense, for which no mature plan had been laid before the house or the public. (Hear, hear.) That being the case, he readily acquiesced the compromise adopted by the majority of that cora- mittee, and embodied in the plan which the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for War had presented to the house. To that course he was still prepared to adhere, and if they came to a division he would vote both against the proposition for the total abolition of the purchase system, without saying how it was to be done, and any proposition which would assert that that system ought to be defended against all alterations. But it appeared to him that the hon. and gallant gentleman who introduced the subject, by pressing his motion to a division, would simply do an in justice to the cause which he himself had embraced, and compel many members to vote against him who, on general grounds, would be favourable to the principle he had enun ciated. (Hear, hear.) Sir DE L. EVANS intimated that he would yield to the appeal of the noble lord and withdraw his motion. (Hear.) Lord PALMERSTON said, as his hon. and gallant friend did not mean to take the sense of the house upon his motion—(oh, oh)—he presumed that the hon. and gal lant member who moved the amendment would not be indisposed to withdraw it. (Hear, hear.) Captain VERNON said that after what had fallen from Sir De Lacy Evans, he had no other course to adopt but to withdraw his amendment. The amendment was then formally withdrawn, but, u several hon. members negatived the withdrawal of the motion, the house was compelled to divide upon it. The numbers were— For Sir De Lacy Evans's motion Against it Majority against UNIVERSITY (SCOTLAND) ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Colonel SYKES, in moving for leave to bring in this bill, explained that its object was to prevent the suppression of one of the Faculties of Arts in the carrying out of the union between the two Universities and Colleges of Aberdeen. Mr. C. BRUCE opposed the introduction of the mea sure, on the ground that the question which it raised had been recently decided by the house after the matnrest deliberation. Mr. ELLICE assured the house that popular feeling in the district was very strongly in favour of the objects of the bill. The LORD-ADVOCATE was willing to allow the in troduction of the measure, but without assenting to its principle. The adjournment of the debate was moved by Mr. STEUART, but, after some conversation, the motion was withdrawn. Leave was then given to introduce the bill. AGGRAVATED ASSAULTS AND CRUELTY TO ANIMALS. Leave was given to Viscount Raynham to introduce a bill to amend the Act of the 16th and 17th years of Vict., chap. 21, for the punishment of persons convicted of aggra vated assaults on women and children ; and a bill to amend the Act of the 13th and 14th years of Vict., chap., 92, for the more effectual prevention of cruelty to animals. ISLE OF MAN HARBOURS. Mr. LAING obtained leave to bring in a bill to make further provision for improvements in the harbours of the Isle of Man. On the mo'ion of Mr. JAMES, various papers were or dered in i egard to the case of Mr. Chisholm Anstey. CUSTOMS ACTS. The report of the Committee on Customs Acts was brought up. The resolutions were agreed to, with the exception of those relating to timber and malt, which were postponed, the first till to-morrow, and the second till Friday. Leave was given to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to bring in a bill founded upon the resolutions. WAYS AND MEANS. The report was brought up. Mr. HENLEYasked what was the amount of tho bounty proposed to be paid to the exporters of British spirits Mr. LAING said the drawback, which the right hon. gentleman erroneously called a bounty, would amount to 3d. per gallon on rectified spirits, and 2d. par gallon en raw spirits. The resolutions were agreed to. VALUATION OF RATEABLE PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. PACKET SERVICE (TRANSFER OF CON TRACTS) BILL. This bill was read a third time. MUNICIPAL CORPORATION MORTGAGES BILL. This bill went through committee. The Medical Acts Amendment Bill was read a third time and passed. The Customs Bill was read a second time. The house apjourned at a few minutes to 1 o'clock. CO f.: JIV TR Y MARKETS. LIVERPOOL—MARCH 6. At ou'.• market this day there was only a slow retail in quiry for wheat, with no disposition to press sales, closing at .ast week's currency. Indian corn fully as dear for the Netter qualities, and 6d per quarter lower for feeding sorts• Flour was dull, but not any easier to purchase. Oats were rather more saleable. Barley and peas unaltered. Egyp' tiara beans were 3d to 6d per qr cheaper. LEEDS—MARCH 6. The supply of wheat was moderate, and a more quiet de mand pervaded the market than of late ; nevertheless , last week's rates were obtained. Beans and oats held for full prices. Barley in demand, at late rates. Other ad' des were unchanged. Arrivals this week : Wheat i ..6,271 qrs. Barley Oats Rapeseed Beans . 398 Linseed lO Flour -- sseka. v, A erages for the week : Wheat ' 3,419 qrs., at 64s 4dl Peas ... 130 „ 383 OJ Beans Barley.... ! 680 ~ 4o* 7d Rat e s ll9 11 263 Old ....0 04 y If SHEFFIELD—MARCH 6. There was an average supply of wheat this morning, en d , for the better qualities a moderate business was done at les t week's currencies. Inferior sorts a shade lower. In other articles no change. Red wheat, per load of S imperial bushels 16s 64 to 19s el 91 ff White l7s 6d to 19s !, New red If If l7s Od to 18s lAA New white ~ ~ lBs Od to 19s tr., Beans fl 2 , l9s 0d to 2 001 P, Peas, per qr 46s Od to 50s e 2: Grindinc , barley, per qr 30s Od to 3 4 er, Malting ditto, „ 3Bs Od to 4201 ri Oats ~ 23s Od to 31s 0 Millers' prices for flour--is 7d, is 9d, and is Ild P er 141 b. NORWICH CATTLE—MARCH 3. Our market to •day exhibited a large show of store cattle , comprising Scots, shorthorns, and a few Irish. A. slow trad e was effected, although there was a tolerable attendanot At the close fully one• fourth of the stock remained unsol d ' Scots, 4s Od to 4s 6d ; shorthorns, 3s 6d to 45 . ; Irisht Od to 3s 6d ; Devons, Os Od to Os (estimated weight ws"' fat). _ Fat beasts a dull sale, at 7s 6d to 8s 6d per stone. Sheep—There were good supplies of sheep in the peni. Fat sheep, 8s 6d to 9sper stone ; prime, 9s 6d. Pigs—A poor supply. Store pigs 25s to 30s ; fat poI4 78 6d to 8s Od per stone. FOREIGN MAIL PACKET LIST. In the following 11 signifie ci table s that letter s are d es pate" by evening malls from London, and 111 by morning mails. Nei t DESTINATIONS. Despatch Port of Ma li of Mails. Despatch. due. Australia and Mauritius, via ll !Mar, Southampton ........... , Mar. 12,M Southamp. 3111 % 1 a Ditto, via Marseill es lm 19 111', - o verd o Bahamas and Hav ana via New , York ........... . .. . . Afar. 16, E Liverpool.. Mar. 11 Canada, ' ll. e. 1 Canadn . . pckt.) Mar. 7, E' Liverpool.. , Mar. I Cape of Goo Hope, Ascen- mon, and St. Helena April 5, EiDevenport April 1 China, Penang, and Singa pore, via Southampton Mar. 20, 311Southamp. ovv.-"1—.1 Ditto, via M arse ill es r- 1 4 Gibraltar, via Southampton.. Mar. 12,M Southamp. overdn Honduras and Blew fi elds .... Mar. 17, M Southamp. Mar. 1 India (Calcutta) and Ceylon, via Southampton Mar. 20, M Southamp. °veal Ditto, via Marseilles India (Bombay), via South- 9 ampton Mar. 12,11 Southamp. Ap.- 1411 Ditto, via Marseilles Lisbon, Brazils,Buenos Ayres, L ad F. Islands Mar. 9, II Southamp. Apri l 1 Lisbon, Vigo, and Oporto Mar. 7, 11 Southamp. Mar. 1 Malta, Egypt, and Aden, via overd o Southampton Mar. 12,11 Southamp , over- Ditto, via Marseilles Mexico and Havana Newfoundland Mar. 10,:E Liverpool.. -- United States and British N lB America (by British packet) Mar. 10, E Liverpool.. Mar. Ditto (by U. S. acket) - West Coast of Africa, Ma deira, and Teneriffe Mar. 23 B Liverpool.. Mar. - West India, California, Vene zuela, Chili, Peru, Grey town, New Granada, Arc. BIRTHS. SCOTT.—On the sth inst., Lady Walter Scott, of a son 411 4 hair. Stuw.—On the sth inst., at the Royal Artillery Barrsal Woolwich. the wife of Major Shaw, Royal Artillerfo twin sons. TOPHAM.—On the sth inst., at Ladbroke Rectory, W 1 wickahire, the wife of the Rev. E. C. Topham, of MARRIAGES. BELL—SMITH.—On the 3d inst., at Norwood Church, Get William Bell, Esq., of No. 8, Montague-street, Russn square, and St. John's-wood, to Amelia Anne, seCO li daughter of George Smith, Esq., of Norwood, SurreY• CLARKS—DANIEL.—On the 6th inst., at the Church of Holy Trinity, Brompton, Edward Francis Clarke, Lieut. R.N., son of the late Colonel Clarke, C. 8., Greys, to Julia Courtenay, the only daughter of the ' l% Howe C. Daniel, Esq., 7th Dragoon Guards. DEATHS. Herr Avniso.—On th e 3d i ns t., at Andler's Ash, Liss, lie, Petorsfield, Hants, Thomas Ayling. Esq surge °— R.N., aged 45. DE GEX.—On the 4th inst., at 44, Hunter-street, Broi l° wick-square, Mrs. De Gex, aged 77. DIGBY.—On th e sth inst., at 22, High-street, Vice-s atai. ral Joseph Digby, age d 74. FRASER.—On th e sth i ns t., at Newton, in South D elall' Henrietta Jan e , wif e of Lieutenant-General Jas. Stu' Fraser, aged 50. hell GALLOWAY.—On the 2d inst, at Torquay, Isabella daughter of the late Major-General Sir Archibald `" loway, K.C.B. tb ° McGREooR.—On Sunday, the 4th inst., Isabella, . do , beloved wife of Thomas McGregor, of 150, CheaP 6l in the 55th year of her age. o f Row .O , 1 Ibir sINSON.—On the 3d inst., Ralph Robinson, El . :1,1;4p Edgley, `Wensleydale, and Cliff Lodge, Leyburn , '- shire, aged 81. •i• WODER.—On the 14th Jan , at San Francisco, Call Mary, wife of Mr. James AVoder, late of the citi Dublin, aged 28 years. y- LONDON : Printeil and Published by MURDO Y u ' 10, of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at Ths Sun OftSceplL if ' Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the ow" — Middlesex, Wivdnesday, March 7, 1860. Litt] *hi old A Sun Poi Cer to a ehr bill lam r