The Sun. — London, England, 1829-04-07 00:00:00

that reason, as it is, my opinion, contrary to the practlte and principles of the Constitution, I shall feel it my duty, on every occasion, to remind your Lordships that it must not he drawn into a precedent. I have no doubt your Lordships are aware—and I must fairly acknowledge that in the early part of my political career I did not pay much attention to political science—l have always, however, known enough to understand that our Constitution pro tected the liberties as well as the property of hi; Majesty's subjects, lam not a lawvcr, my Lords ; but t, - hen I look into the Acts of Parliament passed at the time of the Union, I find that your Lordships gave a compensation to those boroughs which resigned their elective frsechise. That shews to me, my Lords, that the Dective Franchise is a property—(hear, hear)—and if it t property, it has as much a right to claim your protection as any other pro perty whatever. My Lords, a great authority was quoted, on the late discussion, to show that all the great men who had been in Parliament had been the advocates of Catholic Emancipation. I should like to know, whether any Noble Lord will make the same observation on this Bill, or will tell me that Mr. Pitt, Mr. Fox, Mr. Canning, or Lord Liverpool, would have justified this contraction of the Elective Franchise? Will that Noble Earl. who, with so much eloquence, and se little reluctance, attacked his col leagues in office ; or will that Noble Lord, who was sent to Ireland by Mr. Pitt, to carry that measure--will he, or dither of them, turn round and agree with the Noble Duke ? My Lords, the Noble Duke has justified this great measure, by the fact of the spirit which influenced the forty shilling freeholders in the late election at Clare. It is true, that the spirit he described did influence them, and, combined as it NV 49 with a spirit of disaffection in the people, did produce the rejection of a Cabinet Minister who was a candidate for the representation of that county. But, my Lords, have we had no example of the same in England? Have your Lordships forgotten the honest and independent conduct of electors, who, blind to what might be deemed the best cause for the advancement of 'their temporal concerns, voted also against a Cabinet Mi nister? nave your Lordships, I ask, forgotten the Uni versity of Oxford? I do not believe that your Lordships 'ill consent to pass this measure, so contrary to the prin tiples of the Constitution. You will not conclude this night's debate by adopting a measure so prejudicial to the principle of the elective franchise. Whether the electors, in right of their forty-shilling freeholds, are too numerous; whether those who in England purchase the land-tax—a body of persons, of whom there are great numbers in the county in which I have the honour to reside, ought to be diminished, are questions intimately connected together; and if the number of persons I have just alluded to should increase, I ask whether, after passing this Bill, you can refuse to disfranchise them ? My Lords, if the machi nery of this Bill is sufficient to prevent the creation of fic titious freeholds of 101. per annum, lel y will it not equally prevent the creation of fictitious freeholds of forty shillings a year ? I don't see why it will not as well prevent one as the other. 'This is the reform I understand to be required; for I beg it to be understood that I am not advocating any new rights or any new principle, but I wish to protect what is old. lam certain, that if your Lordships reform abuses in the manner now proposed, and by one el-met trent send good and bail together without inquiry, you nil eanfer but little benefit on the country. Your Lord _ _ ships are told there was inquiry in 1825. I ask, if these abuses then existed, why were they not remedied Why, if the facts now stat,d were then known, was Ireland left to all the miseries that have arisen, and that will arise from three forty-shilling freeholders? Looking at this evi dence, on which we are required to act, I ask, whether even that is all one way ? Have I not the evidence of a Noble Earl who then expressed his hope that we should do no such thing as that which is now required of us ? If this Bill passes, you will turn off both farmers and proprietors from their lands; they will come here, and their arrival will be made use of as an argument for the establishment of Poor Laws, and the dilemma in which we are now placed will be increased. If any real abuse is proved to exist, there is no man in the House more ready than my self to afford a remedy ; but I will not begin a sort of Par liamentary Reform by disfranchising thousands of men without inquiry. if a really good measure were proposed I would support it ; but if there be not, any others shall have my decided opposition ; and this measure has it on principle, and on principle alone. I beg to move that this Bill he read a second time this day six months. Lord REDESDALE supported the Bill, and after going through the statutes relating to elections, contended that by the change in the value of money, the forty-slliiling freehold. had now passed into the hands of a class of men much below those originally intended to be electors, and that consequently this Bill was but a return to the old standard of qualifications. Lord FARNHAM did not mean to deny the abuses of the forty-shilling freeholders, but he had a strong objec tion to the provisions of the Bill ❑ow on the table. He did tort mean to cast any imputations upon the Assistant Bar isters, but he most say that this Bill put them under the influence of the Crown. In the first place, it made them almost absolute judges of the whole constituency of the Kingdom ; a power which he thought ought not to he vested in the hands of men who were appointed by the Crown, whose salary was not fixed by statute, but who were to be remunerated at time pleasure of the Crown, and who were removeable at the will of the Crown. He thought that, by such agency, his Majesty's Ministers could, if they were so inclined, obtain, and unfairly ob ta;n, the most dangerous influence over elections in Ire land.—(Hear.)—This he thought was an evil which their Lordship, as legislators, were bound to prevent. He fully concurred with the Noble Duke as to the conduct of a certain class of Irish freeholders, to whom his Grace had alluded ; but he felt that the proposed Bill would be a hardship upon persons who held freeholds in fee simple under 10/. Why, he asked, should not these freeholds be obtained ? By doing so they would get rid of all fictitious freeholds, and thus the evil would at once be remedied without injury. There was one other point to which he wished to allude, as any observations upon it in Co►n mittee would not carry so much weight—he meant the power of an appeal in the event of an affirmative as well as a negative decision on the part of the Assistant Bar• rister. He would in such case allow the appeal to be made to any two Magistmates of the County. Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, that the Bill provided such an appal. Lord FARNHAM added, but the appeal to be so made should he decided before the then next ensuing Session. Lord MANNERS said, that judging from the practical effects of the Bill of 1793, he could not conceive any mea sure more calculated to improve the general state of Ire• hod, and benefit the poorer classes of its inhabitants than the proposed Bill. It would renew and strengthen those ties between landlord and tenant so beneficial to both, but which had been so grievously broken in upon by the Act of 1793. He looked upon the Bill as an act of justice, and one which would confer considerable benefit upon a great portion of the forty-shilling freeholders themselves. From his long professional habits, he must be supposed as anxious as any of their Lordships to support vested rights, but he was not so anxious to retain a bad law, as to resist an improvement of it.—(Hear, hear, hear. )—lt was quite a mistake to suppose that the forty-shilling freeholders re presented the landed interest of Ireland ; as well might it he said that universal suffrage would give a faithful repre sentation of the landed and moneyed interest of the coun try. As the law at present stood, many of the forty shilling freeholders came to vote with a suspicious title; some on a lease of lives, with an old life thrown in, in order to strengthen the title ; those leases were held at a high rack rent, and the land was tilled by the occupier, he being unah:e to pay for the labour of another. In 1793, it was thought necessary to grant concessions to the Ro man Catholics ; and it was thought better to grant them the elective franchise than give them admission to Parlia ment, the latter being deemed the less constitutional mode of concession. Now their Lordships had heard the effects of the Act of 1793. It had demoralized the country ; it had produced great mischief, and no good ; and, in addi tion, it had inflicted serious injury upon the forty-shilling freeholders thetnAelves.—( Hear. )--He supported the Bill now before their Lordships, from a conviction that it would improve the morals of the country, and add to the pnblic pace of Ireland. But as this Bill was so intimately connected with another measure still within their Lord ships' House, he hoped he might be allowed to say a few words upon it. He had voted against that other measure; but he had done so with pain, as it must ever give him pain to vote against the Noble Duke, for whom he uniformly entertained the highest respect.—(Hear, hear.) —But he assured the Noble Duke and his colleagues, that in having changed their opinions upon this great tioestien, they had not diminished, but increased his con fidence in them—(hear, hear)—for lie felt that in doing so they had made great and painful sacrifices to the discharge of their public duty.—(Hear, hear.)—And when he saw the Noble Duke and his friends supported by so many Noblemen whose wisdom and talent and integrity were unquestioned—men whose only interest was iu the pro sperity and tranquillity of the country—so far from dis trusting the Noble Duke, he could not help feeling that his own opinion was not right. He hoped he should find that it was wrong ; and when the Bill was passed into a law he trusted it would have the effect of tranquillizing Ire- land, of uniting both Protestant and Catholic, or at least of depriving the latter of all cause of complaint ; that it would strengthem the -bands of Government, and give the country at large a more general confidence in the protec tion of the Legislature. The Marquis of BUTE said some Noble Lords bad op posed the measure on the ground that sufficient time had not been given to inquire into the effects it would pro duce in Ireland. Now he would ask what more strict in quiry could be instituted than that of 1825 ? They were anxious that the great question of Catholic Emancipation should be carried, yet, however thankful he might be to Ministers for that measure, still he wou'ti not consent to suppot t •lie Bill then before their Lordships, if he thought it, contrary to the feelings of the parties more immediately interested in it. It was because he was satisfiel, from the information private anti public which had reveled him on the subject, that the forty-shilling freeholders themselves acquiesced in it, that he gave it his support. He felt, too, that in doing so he was conferring a benefit on Ire land, but more particularly on the forty-shilling free holders themselves. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE was anxious to make a few observations upon this Bill. However anxious he was to carry the other great measure, which was calcu lated to tranquillize, he could not support that now before the House, because he could not see that there existed any necessary connection between the one and the other. If he thought that the other Bill depended in any way upon this, be would go out of his way to support it ; but not without a conviction, that in doing so, he would be com mitting a direct act of injustice. Much had been said about the evils which exist, and the benefits which this Bill would confer in removing those evils. It would, in his view of the case, have been better to have shown that the Bill would introduce a better system than that at pre sent existing. As the law now stood, it would be impos sible to bribe the forty-shilling freeholders of any county in Ireland ; but when the number of voters was reduced, votes would become of value, and there would always be found plenty of men who had their price; and ihen, if the bribery oath should be adminstered, the perjury and demoralization would be as great as at present. It was said that the forty a shilling freeholder was insensible of the value of his vote. He maintained that recent events proved the contrary. When the forty-shilling freeholder was called upon to decide, he decided against those who he considered were continuing his injuries ; and by so doing ke carried Catholic Emancipation. The Noble Duke wished to introduce a race of yeomen into Ireland. —But what was he to do—how was he to provide for the thousands who must be removed from the soil, in order to make way for them ? It was true that peace and tran quillity would introduce manufactures--manufactures would beget industry and give employment. Then, and not till then, could the more humble classes be safely withdrawn from the soil. But all this must be gradual, and the work of time—whereas the proposed Bill was a premium on sudden and rapid depopulation. On these grounds he felt it his duty to oppose the Bill. The Earl of ROSEIiERI ; ' differed with his Noble Friend and Relative, and from other Noble Lord's who hail expressed a determination to oppose the Bill. He thought it would he productive of beneficial effects, and would therefore support it. Indeed the only ground of objec tion which he could at all perceive in it was that it had a tendency to interfere with vested rights. But when he reflected how the Elective Franchise had been exercised by the forty-shilling freeholders ; when he found that that privilege, instead of turning out a benefit, had proved an injury to the parties exercising it, he thought a case i❑ favour of the Bill was fully and clearly established on the part of his Majesty's Government. It was not only that there were no benefits, their Lordships must he aware that considerable mischiefs had grown up out of the system, and that not only much benefit would he caused by the re pression of the mischief, but other and most beneficial effects would flow from the Bill now before them. The prominent mischief which had arisen in Ireland from the present state of the franchise, and which had been sa clearly stated by the Noble Duke in his address to their Lordships, was the controul exercised by the Catholic Priests over the great body of the people. Another mis chief, not inferior to this, was the subdivided occupancy of the land, which was occasioned by the desire to obtain votes and Parliamentary influence, and which produced the secondary mischief, viz, that the subdivision of the land led to a great redundancy of population, which was the more mischievous as it occurred in a country destitute of all manufactures to employ them. It produced the further mischief, that the great redun dancy of popularity, which wm, perhaps, unexampled in Ireland, prevented the people from finding employ ment, plunged them ail in the greatest wretchedness and penury, brought on them all the evils of idleness, and made them, at all times, the ready instruments of tu mult and disorder.—(Hear, hear.)--An additional opera tion of this system, he believed, was—and lie spoke it with great deference to the Noble Lords who came from that part of the country—that the people found it neces sary, in order to obtain support, to enter into a competi tion for the occupation of land, by which rents were largely and even ruinously increased.—(Hear, hear.)—He thought it hid been proved that the Bill would put an end to one of the evils complained of, viz. the controul now exercised by the Catholic Priests over the freeholders. He could not help feeling sanguine also that the regulation now pro posed would slowly but effectually cure the other evils. He therefore should be ready to give his vote for the Bill, as a good substantive measure, though he must candidly and fairly avow—notwithstanding he thought the Bill wisuld produce much positive good—that he should not have voted fit it, unless it bad been accompanied Ly the mea sure for Catholic relief. He would now vote for it, not merely on its own merits, but as the Bill was a great agent to procure the support of those to that great measure which he had uniformly hoped, ever since he had a seat in that House, would ultimately be carried, thinking, as he did, that neither this nor any other measure would be of any.beneficial effect. The Catholic Relief Bill was made the basis of our legislation. It had been stated that the measure would produce considerable discontent, and it had been wished that the right of the present possessors might be preserved, and that the Bill might be made only pro spective. He doubted if this would satisfy the commu nity ; or if it would have gained the support of those whose support was of incalculable benefit in carrying through the other measure. What he bad heard had not altogether satisfied him, that if ever another election should ensue, whether it was a single election or a general election, be fore that measure were adopted by Parliament, and conies into execution, he for one should consider it a great re proach that the country should lie left exposed to the jail ence exercised by the Catholic Priests over the forty-shil ling freeholders. The measure was certainly a violation of a principle, anti he deeply regretted that it should be ne cessary to support it ; but under the present circumstances no time was to be lost ; and as Parliament had arrived at a correct conclusion in consenting to the other Bill, be hoped it would also consent to this, not merely as essential to complete the other measure, but as carrying with it be nefits on its own grounds.—( Hear, hear.) _ _ The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL was understood to support the Bill, though he did not think it would di minish the influence of the Catholic Priests. He con ceived they would have as much influence over the Catho lic freeholder if the franchise were raised to 101. or 201., as they have over the forty shilling freeholders. He was anxious to see Ireland prosperous and her people comfortable, and wished to see an independent body of yeomanry, who would be able to obtain a good educa tion fur their children, and would be better judges of who was fit to represent them in Parliament than the present ignorant peasants who dwelt in mud-huts, which they shut up in summer, and, turning their children out to beg, came themselves to England to seek a little money. He would like to see the measure extended, and the qua lification raised still higher. It would follow up the Act which had been passed last Session, called the Sub-letting Act, and would prevent those subdivisions of property by which respectable farms were gradually turned in nume rous cabbage-gardens. It was impossible that a man could support a family and pay rent out of half an acre of land. It was supposed, if the land was not so subdivided, that the people would starve—that no employment could be found for them if these small portions of land were again united into respectable farms. There was yet a great deal of uncultivated land in Ireland, and these people might he settled on it; bringing it under tillage would be greatly to the advantage of the country. This bad been practised in some cases, and might be done on a great scale. He wished also to see the principle of the Bill ex tended to boroughs, otherwise there would be a tempta tion to build mud-cabins about towns, that would be a dis grace to Ireland.—(Laughter.)--- He wished also, that a clause might be introduced, baking away from the forty shilling freeholders the right of voting for Coroners, as they were not capable of judging who was a proper person to fill that important office. The Earls of Winchilsea and Malmesbury rose toge ther, but the former Noble Lord giving way, the Earl of MALMESBURY proceeded :—lle had been anxious fur some time to rise, as some appeals had been made to the party to which he belonged—he being one of those who were not particularly fond of change, and who were satis fied with the existing order of things. He did imagine, when he came into the House, though it was difficult to comprehend how it should happen—hut he did imagine that extremes would meet, and that he who was averse from reform, and that those who were the champions of reform, were to join in their opposition to that Bill. He • had expected that one of the Noble Lords opposite would rise and protest against that act as an infringement of the rights of the people. He was an enemy to reform, and he should be ready to oppose any measure which went to alter the representative system. This measure was supported as necessary to the prosperity of Ireland—to the prospe rity of Ireland he was a great friend, and had given prac tical proofs of it. He had advocated her interests on all questions concerning the Corn Laws. He had advocated the measure for admitting her agricultural produce into this country, first brought forward in 1816, and he had alwa) s urged the necessity of allowing the average prices of Ireland to be taken into consideration in determining the average prices of the whole country. If he opposed the present measure, it was not because be was the enemy of Ireland, but because he regarded the Bill as altering the Constitution. He looked at the Bill as correcting abuses and remedying an evil, and he expected to find that exl pressed in the preamble of the Bill, but he found no such Cling. The preamble only stated, that, " Whereas it was expedient and necessary to raise the amount of the quali fication for election in Ireland."—(Hear, hear.)—To him the Bill appeared one of the most complete measures of re form that had ever been brought into Parliament. He had learnt from good authority—the evidence taken before Committees of both [louses five years ago—that there were many freeholders in fee-simple in Ireland. In the evidence taken before the House of Commons, he found 31r. Hoch ford asserting that there were many such freeholders in Ireland, as we have in England ; be meant a class well known, probably, to their Lordships, who fixed themselves on a common, and by prescription obtained a freehold, to which they hail as good a right as le had to his estate. However that right might originally have been acquired, the were now bone fide farty-shilling freeholders in lee, and they were by this Bill to he swept away at one fell swoop. He voted conscientiously against the measure, on the principle which had made their Lordships, when bo roughs were accused of corruption, most anxious not to take away their rights without a full inquiry. If there were any thing sacred, it was the elective franchise. He did not agree with his Noble Friend (the Earl of Winchilsea) who had avowed himself a Reformer, and if he were to vote for this Bill he should act unquestionably in a very f4olish manner ; and when any question were raised here after about Reforxi—if it were proposed, for example, to take away the burgage fees, which he thought an anomaly, what answer could be give if he were reminded of any vote he might give in favour of this Bill; the Noble Duke said that the forty-shilling freeholds was a system of great abuse ; but why not make it a substantive and separate measure— why not raise the franchise to 101. by a measure that had no connection with any other measure ? The measure was now towed through that House against wind and tide. He hated all bargaining in legislation, and would rather see a measure of such importance brought forward by itself. de apprehended the measure was one of the most inivor tant that ever had come before Parliament, and he did not like to see it slip and glide through the House in spite of justice and in spite of opposition, because it went in the wake of another measure. He would rather see both Bills stand each on its own merit, and would rather see the Catholic question conceded, denuded of all securities, Olen see it accompanied by a measure of this kind. lie found himself placed in a strange situation, arising from the strange manner in which the words friend to civil and religious liberty were banded about. Ile imagined him self to he a friend to civil and religious liberty ; but if he were to describe that character, he should now say of him that he was a man professing to be the friend of civil and religious ►iberty while he held in one hand the clause of a Bill, making it a punishable offence to he in this land, which only to touch gave freedom to a slave—and hold ing in the other a Bill to take away the elective franchise from the body of the people without hearing them in their behalf and without inquiry.— (Cheers and laughter.) He was sorry to oppose measures originating with Govern ment with which he generally acted, but in that opposi tion he was, perhaps, not so much to blame as the Members of that Government, who were now supporting measures they had formerly opposed.—(Hear, hear.)—He would give his support to the amendment. Lord HOLLAND and the Earl of WINCITILSE A rose together, and both claimed for some time t''•se right to ad dress the 'louse ; at length the former Noble Lord gave way. The Earl of WINCHILSEA would not long detain the House, for he was sure, after the decision their Lordships came to on Saturday last, that they would not he inclined to listen with much attention to any argument he might adduce as to the danger which was likely to arise to the best interests of the country. He, however, could not avoid observing that their Lordships were called upon in the most unconstitutional manner, without going into an inquiry, to establish a precedent, by which some de spotic Minister might make an infringement upon the dearest rights of the country.—(Hear, bear.)—Their Lordships were told, that this measure would be beneficial to Ireland, and the grounds for bringing it forward were stated to be, that the forty-shilling freeholders were re gardless of their privileges—that they were prevented by poverty and distress from registering their freeholds —and that they were driven in flocks to the vote.—( Hear. ) Another reason given for disfranchising the forty-shilling freeholders was, because they could not write ; but their Lordships should remember, that not one of those indivi duals who gained for England the great charter of her li berties could ;vrite.—(Hear.)—A Noble Lord had alluded to what he had said respecting Parliamentary reform ; and he would, with the permission of the House, state his views on that subject. He believed that the measure, the prin ciple of which had bee❑ assented to by their Lordship on Saturday last, was contrary to the sense of the nation ; and if it should pass, he certainly should not enter into the walls of that House again, or take part in any discussion, until the people had had an opportunity of ex pressing their sentiments on the subject. He admitted the power of Parliament to abrogate any laws, but still the opinion of the people ought not to he disregarded. The reform which he would propose would he to have triennial Parliaments instead of septennial. He believed that a ne cessity had existed at the time for altering the period of Parliament's duration from three years to seven ; but when that necessity ceas••d to exist, the period for the duration of Parliaments, as regulated in the reign of William 111., ought to have been re-established. Had that been the case, he was convinced that the late great change in the Constitution would not have been effected. There was another reform which he would recommend. Last year the Reverend Bench opposite had consented to a measure which separated the established religion from the State, and this year many of that hotly had agreed to a measure which would have the effect of making the Protestant re ligion no longer the religion of the country. Upon their conduct, however, he did not mean to comment, but he agreed with a Right Rev. Prelate, with whom he had had a conversation, that there ought to be some discipline in the church, and power given it to remove such members as were a disgrace to it. He would propose that there should be no transitions from one see to another ; (Hear, hear)—that the incomes of the Bishops should be equalized, and that they should be paid in proportio❑ to the duties they performed.—(Hear.) He would pro •use that no Minister should have the appointment of Bishops, but that they should be chosen by their own body, !subject to the approval of the King ; and his last pro • posal would be, that the Bishops should no longer have seats within the walls of their Lordships' House.—( Cheers and laughter.)—There had been many very extraordinary changes of opinion of late ; and with the permission of the House, he would relate an anecdote which had been told to him by the Hon. Member for Kent, which he thought ap plicable to the present circumstances. At the commence ment of the late war, two soldiers—one a black maa, and the other a white—were walking in the neighbourhood of Harwich, where there was an encampment, and they met a woman and a sailor, who were going to he married in the ensuing week. They committed an act of violence and atrocity on the person of the woman, and nearly murdered the man. For this offence they were both hang e d. At the end of nine months, the woman, who was ill-treated, gave birth to two children, one black and the other white. (Laughter•.) This he considered a very extraordinary circumstance in the natural world ; hut no less extraordi nary in the political world were the twin speeches which the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack had de livered.—(Loud laughter. )—He ought to add, that a libe ral subscription was raised for the woman, but he did not know how the Noble and Learned Lord was to be re warded for his painful d e livery.—(Continued laughter. ) The Noble Earl sat down amidst the loud cries of hear, after stating that his opposition to the Noble Duke at the head of his Majesty's Government was founded not on personal but solely on public motives. Lord HOLLAND did not think the present a proper time for discussing the questions of Parliamentory reform. He had never given his vote, or delivered his senti ments, on that subject in their Lordships' House, but he certainly was not prepared to go the length of the Noble Earl behind him. He expressed his satisfaction at finding the Noble Lord did not think the Coronation Oath contained any bar to the legislation of Parliament on the subject of Catholic relief. The Noble Earl (Wincldlsea) admitted that Parliament had a right to change the Con stitution of the country ; also that they could effect one change which the Noble Earl appeared to wish to see made—that was, that the Spiritual Lords should be turned out of the House, and that their revenues should be equalized. This was rather a bold proposition, a stroke of sweeping reform to come from such a quarter. The words of the Coronation Oath, if they did apply to to the Legislative power of the throne (which he denied), did certainly apply to such a case as this ; aad compre hended measures like these now suggested by the Noble Earl. For according to the terms of the Coronation I Oath, the Sovereign was bound to maintain the Church and the Clergy of this kingdom in their rights and privi leges. That one of those rights and privileges was that the Right Rev. Prelates who filled the opposite bench should sit. in Parliament, none could deny. Yet the noble Earl wished to see the Bishops excluded from their Lordships' House. However, as it was possible that before he sat down he should have to say one word on the subject of consistency, he would now do the Noble Earl the justice to say, that not only was he consistent with himself in the proposition which he made, but he was consistent with the persons and things he most admired. The 30th of Charles 11. it self bore the Noble Earl out in his opinion ; and the Earl of Shaftesbury, a roan, it must he admitted, of most extra ordinary powers of mind, notwithstanding the atrocious blots upon his character, stated something similar to the Catholic Lords, and persuaded them to vote against the Bishops' test. The Earl of Shaftesoury said that the Catholic Lords would rot be the worst body in the House, thereby meaning that the Bishops ought to go out instead of the Catholic Lords. The Noble Earl, therefore, upon this point was consistent with himself and with the Earl Of Shaftesbury, with whom, however, the Noble Earl's ancestors had seldom the happiness to agree. He knew not whether it was a dispensation of Providence or a fata lity attendant on the imperfection of human nature, that seldom was there any subject or any political action on hu man affairs in which there did not arise something of a nature unpleasant, ungrateful, and disagreeable to our feel lings. In the best measures we found some want of com pleteness or imperfection. He felt that he was discharging a duty, but a distasteful one, to that part of the country more immediately interested in the present measure, and to the empire at large, by supporting in the first instance the second reading of this Bill ; and he also felt that he should be discharging a still more distasteful and painful duty in at tempting to reconcile himself to all the clauses and provi sions contained in it, except he found, which he much de sired, that the supporters and originators of the measure should not be of opinion that the preservation of these clauses was necessary to its existence. It hail been said there was no evidence before the House to justify the pre sent measure. He denied this. There was a mass of evidence on the subject taken and laid before their Lordships in 1825 ; and upon that evidence only was it that he felt prepared to give his vote for this Bill ; and he would tell their Lordships shortly why. He was aware there was an answer to the argument founded on these considerations; but the Noble Earl had forestalled the objection, although he was the last man whom he should have expected to do so. There certainly was an observation pregnant with some considerations likely to lead one to another conclusion on that evidence—namely, what had happened since that evidence was taken. Ile surrendered in this respect all claim to consistency ; Noble Lords might have the ad vantage of the admission, and use all their artillery—they had plenty of it—against him. What had happened since 1825, he at once admitted lie thought calculated to weaken the objections entertained towards the system and exercise of the elective franchise in Ireland. The evidence taken in 1825 contained the true grounds for objecting to that system; what happened since arose from an accidental excitement. He should be told that instead of being governed by their landlords—that was, treated as so much live stock dispoleable at the will of the owner—the Irish tenantry were now swayed by the priests. Ile was not fond of an undue influence on the part of the priests of any kind ; he was as free from that weakness as any man could well be ; but if slaves were to be driven, he would rather they were driven by drivers of their own choice, than by persons of whom they less approved, although they might happen to he the original drivers.— The conduct of the Irish electors since 1825, so far from being an aggravation of their offence, was directly tire con trary. It was to their praise that these poor unhappy and most unfortunate men, who had been long lab.uring under the yoke which your ambition imposed upon them,— these slaves and serfs of the land,—it was to be spoken to their commendation, that, impelled by religious and strong political notions, they had incurred the risk of actual des titution and punishment by opposing their task-maeters.— Though it might be true that the basis of the English Constitution and representation consisted in property, it was false that the over-weening property of one nom could constitutionally command the votes of others.— The really guilty men were the proprietors of land in Ire land, who, for the basest, lowest, and most grovelling of political objects had bestowed rights and privileges upon their fellow-countrymen. He supposed the Noble Lord would not object to the evidence of Archdeacon Trench. That gentleman stated that he hail frequently seen herds of voters driven to the hustings to be polled—driven, he added, like herds of oxen, by a man on a mule with a long whip. He (Lord Holland) asked the witness whether he had seen the men actually lash the voters ? The Archdeacon replied he had not. He then put it to him to say, whether he believed that the whip was intended for the voters, and not for the mule? The answer was, that he not only believed it, but knew it, for the whip was of such a quality and length that the mule could not be struck by it, and the voters could. The Noble Duke who had moved the amendment would probably he somewhat moderated in his anxiety as to the rights and privileges of the freeholders, when he considered that the liberty which they enjoyed was a little like the liberty of the negroes in our West India colonies. When he recollected this evidence, and considered the con current testimony from so many quarters as to the manner in which this strange, vicious, and imperfect system worked, (whether the vice consisted in the original con struction of the law, or in its subsequent perversion, he knew not,)—wheu he knew that a large portion of these unhappy individuals themselves would consider the depri vation a relief—at any rate, when he saw that they felt so strung a wish for the accomplishment of the other great measure with which this had been connected, that they were ready to accept it and its accompaniments with gra titude—he found it impossible to oppose the second read ing of the Bill. But he acknowledged he could not vote for this Bill with the same degree of satisfaction and plea sure as he had felt, when, two days ago, he went below the bar in support of the other measure, with a mass of talent, liberality, arid learning—a conetellation of all that was most brilliant and benignant in human nature, such as perhaps had never before been enclosed within that nar row space. Though by some mysterious means these two measures had been linked together, as was truly stated by the Noble Earl, they had no necessary connection. —lt was true they were twins of the same parent, hut he thought they ought to have no affinity, awl cer tainly they bore no more resemblance to one another than tire two bantlings which the Noble Earl hod described to the House. The Relief Bill was a mea sure not of expediency and necessity exclusively ; it did net, as was said, invade the Constitution of the coun try, shake the stability of the throne, endanger our reli gious rights and privileges; it was a measure of justice, mercy, and peace ; it restored the Constitution of the country to its proper condition ; it did not menace evil to any—implied the subjugation of none; it restored to the King, Lords, and Commons their just and full privileges; it restored to the Protestant King of this country the unfettered exercise of his just, ancient, lawful, and consti tutional prerogative ; it restored their Lordships' House its full power and dignity; it rendered the Peerage of Eng land what it had a right to be, what it always was before the accursed law of Charles 11.,—it made it a full and en tire Peerage; it restored the integrity of this House, which had been suspended and mutilated as much as the bust of Titus Oates himself;—it restored to the other House of Parliament its ample and unfettered privileges, it restored to the people the right of electing the repre sentatives who could best represent them,—and to all men it restored the eligibity to office, executive and legislative. The Noble Lord, after noticing the assertion that the pre sent was a terrible infringement on the Irish elective fran chise, and glancing at the argument relative to the dif ferent value of 40s. now and in the time of Henry VIII., proceeded to observe, that, although for the reasons al ready stated, and in accordance with the tendency of the evidence taken in 1825, he was ready to vote for the Se cond reading of the Bill, yet, much as he wished to recon cile his mind to all the clauses and provisions suggested by those individuals who has! so nobly, boldly, wisely, and magnanimously brotight forward the measure of relief, he could not deny that there were clauses in the present Bill to which he could not give his hearty concur rence. He did not like the principle of retrospection. which the measure directly involved—he did not like to see that no attempt was made to separate the bona fide from the fictitious freeholder. He should be glad if the proposers of the Bill could consent to remedy these and other defects. He was sorry to hear, from what fell from the Noble Duke, that the measure was to be considered as definitive, and preferred taking the language of the Bill itself as his authority. He found some consolation in it. ; for more clearly, even than the declaration of King Wil liam himself, or the standing orders of their Lordships' House excluding the Catholics, did this Bill recognize the power of the alteration and revision in the legislature. This implied that the measure was to be parsed in sedan shape that it might be necessary to alter it ; and that con soled him greatly with regard to some clauses and provi sione in the Bill which ke found hard of digestion. Above all, although there were great blemishes in the Bill, he hoped it would not really impair or defeat the great mea sure with which it had been connected. He hoped-it would not be the dead fly which could taint the whole ointment. He did not think it would, although there were things in the Bill very much to his distaste, calcu lated to offend his palate, and which, under other circum stances, would be likely to revolt his stomach altogether. Ilis Noble Relative seemed pleased at that admission, and he hoped the Noble Lord would make the most of it. What would be the effect of rejecting this Bill ? What the con sequence of adopting it with all its imperfections? The consequences of its rejection, connected as it was with the , other measure, would be some things not fit to be de- scribed. From its adoption, always bearing in mind its connection with the Relief Bill, he did not augur so many ffsatleantages as did some Noble Lords. The Bill, taken abstractedly, would seem to possess a lowering and re pulsive aspect ; yet it had not been so contemplated by that open-hearted, magnanimous, and excellent people upon whom it was intended to take effect. When he gut over the minor objections that naturally arose out of consideration of the measure, he saw much ground for encouragement in the confidence to be reposed in the Go vernment that tad acted so wise and noble a part, he saw still greater ground for encouragement in the confidence which he felt in the good temper and magnanimity of the people of Ireland. Ile had heard it asserted that the prin ciple of gratitude in great bodies was seldom firm or to be relied on : he believed that wrong feelings of gratitude for benefits conferred were implanted by the hand of their Maker in the minds of all men, and that the principles which actuated individuals actuated great bodies of men What reason was there to suppose that such a feeling would not be found in the body of men in question ? But it was possible to overrate a benefit. We talked of a boon and indulgence. What boon? What indulgence? Was it the indulgence of allowing men to live ?—the indulgence of permitting them to breathe the air of heaven ?—the in dulgence of letting them enjoy the fruits of their honest labour ?—the indulgence of saying they should be able to bold their own lands ? These were the sort of indul gences granted. Granted to whom ?—granted by whom ? To the people of a whole nation by a ens ill knot of the inhabitants of that nation ! It was a mockery of the rights of a free people to talk of such things as indul genres. Talk of the Bill of Rights ! Whose rights ? The rights of the people ?—are the Roman Catholics no part of the people ?—are the rights contained in the hill of Rights no part of their rights? Then why this mockery anti attempted delusion about boons and in dulgences to the people? The reasons which induced him to hope that the people of Ireland would acquiesce cheerfully in this Bill, in their great anxiety to secure the other measure, arose from the conduct up to the present moment. He believed they were disposed to follow the example set, and the advice given to them, by the Noble Marquis who was lately Lord Lieutenant of that country, and who men thought had been so extra- • ordinarily removed from his high office. However that might be that Noble individual in question had put aside all personil feelings on the subject of his recall, and gave Iris entire weight and influence to the support of this great measure of relief; and sure he was that the example of the Noble Marquis would induce the Irish people to overlook all minor conmidTratione, and concur in expressing their joy and gratitude at what had been done by increased loyalty and affection towards a Government which deserved so well from them. He now felt a little inc,ined to do that (with their Lordships' pardon) which since he had enjoyed the honour of a seat i❑ this House he had never mani fested any extraordinary propensity for doing. He was disposed to say a few words about himself,—sonrething concerning - the motives anti reasons be had for acting as he did. He had seen a good deal in the House, and much out of it, to convince him that those persons, who, under cover of a shower of violent indignation and feeble argu ment, began by describing the horrible measure brought forward for the relief of the Roman Catholics as a sort of renewal of the days and dangers of bloody Queen Mary in this Protestant country,—as a subversion of the state, a violation of the privileges of the church, and an infraction of the Constitution,—that those same individuals now gene rally planted their feeble batteries, and endeavoured to bring their artillery to hear against the consistency of indivi duals rather thin on the measure itself. We had nothing to do with the principle of consistency as it was employed by the Noble Lords : the decisions of Parliament were our rule : we were not to consider any thing but this in relation to the present question. This by the way. The Noble Earl complimented persons upon this side of the Horse for their consistency. He (Lord Holland) neither bragged nor wished to be thought proud of his consistency : his whole object was to think as justly and act as honestly as he could ; and if he happened to he consistent in his public ac tions, it was because his opinions had not changed. If they had undergone an alteration, he trusted he had virtue, honour, patriotism, and honesty enough to act on the change. He wished to show, by his actions, that these were his real opinions—the sentiments upon which he had always acted ; and therefore he wished to show the sharp-shooters of the opposite party, who endeavoured to bring down every body, that he was a fair mark for them. He wanted to show them that he had—not a white feather—that he did not believe be possessed—but a few discoloured feathers ; and that therefore they might have a slap at him. On the sub ject of reform they might think him vulnerable, for like the Noble Lord who spoke the other night he thought that that which abridged the number of votes in the country was an evil, and that extending them was a good. Notwithstanding this, he supported the present Bill. It was clear, then, that he could not interpose the shield of consistency against the projectiles of such skilful marksmen as he saw around him. For his part, he held retrospec tion in legislation in perfect abhorrence. Happily the day might arrive when his Noble Relative would have it in his power to confess that a change had taken place in his sen timents, which would do him honour in deserting that cause which he might imagine to be the cause of duty, but which he could not but consider the cause of prejudice, and, Ire hoped, antiquated intolerance. It was, however, an omen► in his Noble Relative's favour, that he so far advocated the cause of liberty, which it might there fore be presumed was natural to his generous temper, by his opposition to a Bill which was to extinguish the rights of so numerous a body of his Majesty's subjects. The measure of concerion had been always confessed to be a choice of evils; but be ima gined the difficulty or choice of evils would be ten thousand-fold increased, should their Lordships, after what had been already done in the meditated alteration of the law, attempt to halt and disappoint the expectations which had been so generally excited throughout this and the neighbouring kingdom. He could not contemplate the dangerous effect of such a hire of conduct without being appalled at the too probable consequences. This was the most powerful of all the many reasons which suggested themselves, or had been recapitulated, in favour of the Bill ; and, impressed as he was with the weight of this ar•- gutnent in favour of its expediency, be could not but give it his most sincere support. The Duke of HAMILTON rose, and expressed his conviction that this measure ought to be considered in the light of a totally distinct and sepsrate measure from that with which the Noble Lord had appeared so intimately to unite it.—(Here the Noble Duke discontinued his speech, and very abruptly resumed his seat.) The Earl of LONGFORD was satisfied no Bill could be framed for the improvement of the representation of Ire land, which was more calculated to produce the best and most salutary consequences. The Earl of HADDINGTON said he should vote in fa vour of the Bill, not so much on account of his satisfaction with the Bill itself, but because it was so intimately con nected with, and so necessary perhaps to the success of the Relief Bill, which it accompanied in its progress through their Lordships' House. He professed he had not courage to contemplate even the evils and horrific results which might flow from a failure of that measure to which this Bill relative to the franchise might be considered an accessory or adjunct. It should therefore have his decided support. The Earl of DUDLEY believed the Bill, even if it stood alone, would prove a singular benefit to the Irish people. The great grievances of Ireland, it was said, consisted in the exclusion of men of property and education from ele vated stations and offices of state. This all went to pro hibit the illiterate and the uninformed mass of the lower orders from exercising a power to their own prejudice, and often to their own disgrace and degradation. Had the forty-shilling freeholders not been proved by examination at their Lordships' bar to he a wretched set of ignorant I sings, too often driven like a herd of cattle to prostitute the elective franchise to the will of their landlords?— (Ilear.)—Latterly, the terrors of this world had yielded to the terrors of the next, and the priest ruled instead of the man of property over their deluded consciences. From such a system, and from such consequences, it was high time that the country should be relieved by the strong mrm of the Legislature, and he should therefore cordially support the Bill for its own intrinsic merits, as an excellent politi cal enactment.—(Cries of " Question, question.") The Duke of WELLINGTON confessed he was not surprised that on this Bill there had existed, even amongst the friends of the other accompanying measure, a difference of opinion. Ile felt it however necessary to call to their s L o o s m r t h h ps ng ' l r i e k c e o l t l c a t ti that a few whic had years tie ago, ho whenho nour iirt a introduces mas eur e to their notice last week relative to the Catholic disabiliti s had been introduced, another measure like that now before them made some progress through Parliament. To those measures, differing in different respects, though generally resembling these in principle, be could not, he felt, assent or be a party, becaate they did not in hie wind appear to I be complete. He could assent only to a complete system of measures which would be likely to effect the great objects of the pacification and improvement of the condition of that country to which those measurer, were directed. He should have deceived those with whom he acted, and deceived the nation, if he had brought down to them a project which he did not feel convinced was a complete one. To the objee tions which were not weighty in his mind, the answers would be found in the state of the Bills now before Parlia ment, in the anxiety of all classes of the community, and the state of Ireland. He conceived that the appointment of aa sistant-barristers to register and examine the value of the freehold was a better regulation by far than that resorted to by the magistracy heretofore. In fact, the magistrates had been tried and failed ; and he believed no class of men were more independent than professional gentlemen who bat a character to lose, and professional respectability to up hold. Ile believed no class of men in society would be less likely to yield to the seductions of ministerial authority or influence. In reply to the Noble Lord on the cross-bench, that it was likely the priesthood would have the same influence over the 101. freeholders sta over the forty-shilling freeholders, he begged their Lord" ships to recollect that it had been preyed before them that the influence alluded to was proved to exist always in pro portion to the degree of ignorance and poverty of the parties.—(Hear, hear.)—Could any parallel of this un favourable nature be drawn between the man who could neither reed or write, and the better informed 7—between the person who had been finind by a barrister to be, in his own clear right, without connivance, possessed of a free hold of 101. a-year, besides possibly a business or property of another description, and the poor dependant or beggar who swore himself, or forswore himself, to be the possessor of a forty-shilling freehold ? " I have brought," said his Grace, in concluding, " your Lordships this Bill in at nearly perfect a state as I could conceive to be practicable; I entreat you wilt allow it to he read a second time to night, that it may go simultaneously to the Committee! , with that other measure, there to be examined ; and 11 your Lordships deem it expedient, there to be amended• But I do also entreat your Lordships will not unnecessarily amend it so as to deprive it of its essential character, is an appendage and auxiliary to the greater measure which it accompanies."—( Hear, hear. )—The question being loudly called for, their Lordships divided— For the original motion— Content (present) 159 Not content (present) Majority in favour of the 2d reading 122 The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Thursday next. 0 Adjournment at Half-past Eleven o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(LAST NIGHT.) Mr. WARD presented a petition from the Graziers at tending Smithfield Market against certain clauses in the Bill for the removal of Smithfield Market. Mr. MOORE presented a petition from the Protestant* of Cork against the Catholic claima. Mr. BROWN LOW presented a petition from the PIT • sicians and Surgeons of Armagh, praying to be relieved from the persecutions to which they are at present expotsedr by being compelled to go to Dublin to be examined by the Court el Apothecaries, although they had previously take out their Degrees at Edinburgh and London. Mr. DAWSON presented a similar petition from the Surgeons and Physicians of Londonderry. There were 250 surgeons and physicians scattered through 1re130 3 9 under liability to the Apothecaries' Company. He believed the object of the Apothecaries' Company was to get the penalty annually front these individuals, and thus to pocket 5,0001. a year, and not prevent persons from compounding medicines. Ile was the more confirmed in this, been° the Apothecaries' Company sent certificates to these who paid the penalty without requiring them to stand Of examination. Lord LEVESON GOWER said, that a prima faci e case had been made ont to induce him to believe that the power of the Apothecaries' Company was not fairly axe' cued, and he should be meet happy to give every Welt' tion to the subject. Mr. DAWSON brought in a Bill to repeal the Zzei" Duty on Auctions. The LORD MAYOR expressed a hope' that e lay would be fixed for the second reading, in order that those parties who were interested might have an opportunity Of expressing their sentiments upon the manner in which it would affect their interests. Mr. DAWSON brought in a Bill to enable the Gl , ' verninent to carry into effect the Convention between Oh/ country and the King of Spain, fur the purpose of seem' in g payment of the claims of British eubjecte on Spain- Mr. M'LEOD presented' a petition from the Journey' men Silk Weavers of Sudbury, in the county of Suffolk, praying the House to take into consideration the present distressed state of the Silk Trade. • The LORD MAYOR presented a petition from the Hackney Coachmen of the Metropolis, praying the 1100 0 would take into their consideration the present mode of granting licenses to cebriolets.—The petition stated that, the present system of granting a great number of cabriee let licenses to one individual operated in the most o ppreee sive manner upon them, and they therefore trusted th e House would only allow one license to any person. Mr. HUME said, he was sorry the Chancellor Of the Exchequer was not in his place. The present 'Mein 0 jobbing in hackney coach licenses was most disgraceful, and he hoped some Member of the House would take ur. the subject. He knew it was common for one individu a l to obtain from 20 to 30 licenses, by which they wattle obtain a profit of 20/. per day, whilst the tinfortuee te coachman, who, perhaps, had a large family to cup' port, could not get a respectable living. In cabriole t, there was a complete monopoly. No licence ough t to be granted to one who would n o t d r i ve i t Maned' He hoped, as " Free Trade" was the order of the day, t he Right lion. President of the Board of Tiade would give this subject his attention, and not allow the present W u°. poly to be continued. The LORD MAYOR said nothing was more con: lo3° than for one individual to obtain ten cabriolet liceo t 7 and it was well known by each license they o bt a ined 1 0 " per year ; he sincerely trusted the monopoly would be den s away; it ought not to b e thrown into hands that made su ch an unfair profit of it, it ought to go to individuals. Mr. V. FITZGERALD said he had not received aoT particular information on the subject ; but the case wits 0 the present time under the consideration of the Chancen e : of the Exchequer, and he was sure, if it wax as represeete't he would think it his duty to propose an alteration. The petition was then ordered to be printed. Colonel SIBTHORPE, understanding that a Noble Lord opposite (the Chief Secretary for Ireland) bad post poned moving the grant for Maynooth College to so n e day after Easter, wished to know when he proposed bring ing it forward. Lord L. GOWER said, the first convenient day ■fir the holidays he intended bringing it under the considers' tion of the House. Colonel SIBTHORPE wished to know the particular grounds on:which he had postponed that vote to so un usual a time. order. The SPEAKER called the Gallant Officer to and the conversation dropped. Mr. V. FITZGERALD presented a petition froltrib, ribbon-manufacturers of Coventry, complaining of the de ' - pressed state of their trade, and praying interposition for their relief. He could conceive that some part of their. It presentations might be reasonable, but as it was intendea,, to enter into the subject at some length on Thursday he thought it unnecessary then to detain the House. The petition was ordered to be printed, after a felt words from Mr. FYLIA. Mr. HUME presented a petition from the brewers 'of Dundee, complaining of the present state of the laws affe! t ing the Beer Trade. • Mr. HUME presented a petition from the RontSo. Catholic inhabitants of Callan, praying that civil distOk' lilies affecting the Jews be repealed. Mr. CROKER obtained leave to bring in a Bill for OA.! better Jegulation of the Payment of Pensions to it!" Widows of Naval Officers. SUPPLY. Upon the motion of the CHANCEELLOIL of the Excilf" QUEIC, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider the matter of Supply. Tire Speaker having left the Chair— The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, after . few observations, which were quite inaudible to us, mov e " that a sum not exceeding 22,5001. should be granted t° L . • his 31ajesty to make a compensation to the proprietors °I, • property in Bimcoolen for the loss which they had sustain & in consequence of the surrender of that settlement to the King of the Netherlands. Mr. HUME thought the sum voted by the Committe e quite inadequate to tepa) the loss which had been sustaine d by the settlers at Bencoolen. The House, perhaps, would allow him to state the circumstances under which these' tiers, to compensate whose losses this grant was now pre' posed to be made, had been induced to settle at Bencoolee• After the capture of the Molucca Islands, from whence was well known the Dutch had long maintained a moth poly in the spice trade, supplying the whole of Europe lit ' whatever price they chose, and, indeed, frequently raising.; that price to one or two thousand per cent., the:Englili b o . were anxious to establish a settlement of theie.noliniitt ()P.' der to compete with the Dutch, said to rethiCe the 00 d 6C