The Sun. — London, England, 1829-03-03 00:00:00

sighed by thirty thousand adult males. It had been got up by the Methodist preachers and tlt'a Clergy., whilst the opposite petition had been btrow, - Ilt for tvaril in an open meeting, and hail `;re•_ rigtled by seven thousand people. The petition now presented bad been signed by children, the prisoner; of gaols. and by vagrant mendicants. Mr. DUNCOMU Said, that the signatures to the pe tition included the 'environs of Sheffield to the extent of four or five toils. The petition certainly had M.ri .ti tient to the gaol 'to be. signed, but the signatures Obttined there had ~ " 'ter wards been struck out, He deprecated the dispo. anion an the House to ungervaitte the petitions of the people. Lord MILTON rins not disposed to cry down any peti tion « 'weever, *each less one so respectably sisttt :o. tcs tik .. 114 ocesented by his Hon Colleague, ire '".'v rid, how vv-r, reasstn'l his Hon. Colleagiteotalte Gt . tWn circumstances 'oe appeared to have forget, He (I.,rd Milton) did 'not mean to dispute the cesttectitbility of the signature-, he never email sanction the manner in whieh the rfle,ing was liel l where it ortginared. To prove that it rots not a pilhrlC meeting, he would mention one tad a Tyill nova knowl'ilge. A friend of his Was 'Vitt* tO the 'fleeter.; for the purpose of opposing the resolotions, when he was informed tnat no strutilii not be admitted, none tiut rhos- who were favourable to them would he l!oa-ed to take part in the proceedings—(le:it., l'eat. , ;)— ,=ieretore, with all due deference to the Hera Moniber, ti,•.er cud call this a public tuee , oz—(Hear.)—where oaly nue side over, allowed to take part. Now, the pet. Simi which he (Lord Milton) hail the honour to present last week. was agreed to at a public meeting, called by the Master Ciitler, who was the proper constituter{ officer for such put-to- a :4es, and attended by more than seven thousand Individuals, nut of which number not more than forty hands were held up against it, and the signa tures to which he would assert were highly respectable. Mr. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from the inha bitants freehold..rs of Scarborough against the Catholic Claims. The Hon. Member observed that it was most numerously an .l respectably signed. He also presented sis Lollar petitions from thirteen places in Yorkshire, Mr. KEKEWICH presented a petition from the Mayor and Corporation of Exeter, against the Catholic Claims. Mr. W. PEEL, on the resentation of the petition from the Corporation of Exeter, trusted that the House would not suppose it MB his intention to underrate the import ance or the influence of the petition. It professed to be the petition of the Corporation ; httt he was authorised to say that not one half of the Members had signed it.— The feeling certainly by which those gentlemen was influenced was, that they bad relied on the prudence of his Majesty's Government in forming the Bill for the re moval of the disabilities under which the Roman Catholics now laboured—and they trusted that the effect of the measure would be to preserve rather than destroy the Con stitution. KEKEWICH, then presented a petition from Tamworth, and another from Paisley, against the Catholic claims. Colonel SIBTHORPE presented two petitions against Catholic Emancipation from parishes in Lincoln. The Hon. Member said that the petitioners had been thrown into a state of surprise and alarm at the recent change which had taken place in the sentiments of his Majesty's Mi nisters, and they felt it to be their duty to re sist any attempt that might he made for the introduction of Roman Cttltolies into Parliament. They were of the true John Bull breed, and wished to have no spurious cross of a Papist Bull.—(Laughter.) Mr. HOULDSWORTII presented - two Petitions from parishes in the county of Devon, against the Catholic Claims. The Hon. Member, on presenting these peti tions observed, that they were couched in firm and manly terms. The petitioners had entered into a review of the present state of Itsland, and were well convinced that merely granting the claims of the Roman Catho lics would sot have the effect of beoefitting that country, or setting at rest those feuds, by which it was unhappily distracted-, rslr e GREEN presented a petition from the inhabitants (.)f i eilvetston, Lancashire, against the Catholic Claims. The Hon. Member said that the petition was [signed by a great number of independent Freeholders, whose ancestors lied fought for their country. Mr. H. MAXWELL presented a petition from the Seteders of Renfrew, against further concessions to the Catholics ; also several other similar petitions from varione places in Scotland, and from places in the county of Armagh. Mr. MOORE presented similar petitions from the Pro testant inhabitants of Kilmany, and other places in the Queen's County. General GASCOYNE presented a petition from Man chester—a 'et which for- wealth, respectability, and independence, eras second to none in the kingdom. He need hardly inform the House that the petition was against all further concessions to the Roman Catholics—a prayer an which the great body of the people of this empire most earnestly joined..--(hear, hear, and expressions of 'dissent.) The petition was from the magistrates, merchants, clergy, and other inhabitants of the towns of Manchester, Salford, and their neighbourhood. The petition had at tached to it the signatures of 2,000 persons—(A laugh)— he begged pardon, he meant 22,000 persons; amongst whom were to be found the magistrates, warden, fifty ?t the clergy, and a great proportion of the respectable inhabitants of the town. He la.. 'arther to state, that the signatures had been most easily obtained.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)—Persons had been employed to take the sons so r..eaployed found that the inhabitants came to their doore and signed them almost unsolicited.—(A laugh. )—lf Hon. Members required an explanation of the word "al most" he would say, that it was fiuind necessary to explain the nature and objects of the petition before the signatures of individuate could be obtained to it. He looked upon that petition to be one of a most important nature ; to he, in fact, a pattern upon which others might be drawn up o,d signed. --(ilear.)—That petition contained not only the trade or Profession of the person signing; but also, in most instances, the name of the street, and this number at which he resided. He could assure the House that the tannest care had beer. taken in getting up the petition. He had not certainly linked over the whole of the names, but he had closely ex amined five out of one hundred and thirteen sheets upon whir, they were written, and he did not e-e a single name which he could suppose to be that of a female amongst them. --(A laugh.)—He assured Hun. Members that he was by no means opposed to allowing females to sign such I.,etitions, as he considered that they hail great interest in the subject ta which they related. The G dlant Officer proceeded to read some extracts from the petition, whit.), prayed for the utter suppression of the Catholic Associaiion, and that no further concessions he granted to the Roman Catholics. Upon the question that the petition he brought up, Sir GEO. said though the petition just presented by the Gallant Officer did conteie the signatures of 22,000 persons, he denied that it expressed the opinions of the majority of educated persons residing in Manches ter, or of its population generally. He must observe, too, that notwithstanding the anxious manner in which the inhabitants were said to have come forward to sign it, it was the elaborate production of a quarter of a year.— The declaration was got up in November, and signed by 506 laymen, and 44 of the clergy, calling upon the oppo nents of Catholic Emancipation to meet on a certain day. That requisition was met by a counter-declaration, signed by 431 of the first inhabitants of Manchester, for pro perty, education, and independence.—(Hear.)—lt was true that there were many respectable names attached to the first declaration ; but in that respect it bore no compari. son with the other, the persons signing which represented four millions of property. Those who signed the counter petition, however, took no further steps, but confided in the wisdom of Ministers; and in this they were justified by th e petition of 1825. The town of Manchester had not been lowered or degraded since that period ; on the contrary, it had increased in intelligence, and the result was that many persons then opposed to the claims of the Roman Catho lics were now ranked amongst the supporters of those claims. The petition then before the House had been hawked round the streets by the churchwardens and vestries, and every effort was made to obtain signatures. On one occasion, the vestry were requested to take the petition to a school where there were upwards of one bundred children ; but the persons applied to hail the good sense to resist the ep plication. On another occasion, it was proposed to take the petition to the workhouse for the purpose of obtaining the signatures of the paupers, but this proposal was also very properly resisted. He mentioned these matters, in order to show the kind of agency resorted to in order to get up such petitions; and it was not too much to suppose that in several cases, where a proper resistance was not made, such efforts were successful. The petitions had been placed at the doors of Methodist chapels, and at turnpike gates, and boys and carters were eked to sign their names ; and in cases where the parties could not write, other persons signed for them.—(Hear, hear.) The Gallant officer had represented the petition as that of the towns of Manchester and Salford, and the neighbourhood ; but how far that neighbourhood was meant to extend, he (Sir G. Phillips) could not pretend to say. The townships of the parish of Manchester amounted to thirty, and - contained a population of 250,000 inhabitants. Now he would put it to any lion. Member how far 22,000 persons could be looked upon as the majority et that body, or as containing 4-sths of its property and independence.—(Hear, hear, mixed with hisses, and cries of " Question !) It. was not untathral that those who differed with him upon this subject should feel some impatience at hearing his state ments—but upon this they raiglit depend, that he was determined not to be put down.—(Hear, hear.) Out of a population of 230,000 persons, tl:e nut - diet• signatures was so entail ih ptoportiolij that the petition did Pot eipi'eSS th , 6 behle of the people.— But, as aPothee ptiot that the petition did not express the 'l 4 te of Manchester, he might mention that of the two Subscription-rooms, the Portico anti the ExChangeZ--I'do the former of which there were 4,000 st.llA;r.-ihe';'s, and to the latter of which all the 'reitPeCtahle people in town re sorted—only tIvO persons bad subscribed from the first, ard woald not bear a comi arisen with that of 1825, when 28.000 sigualurea were obtained in thirteen weeks; a fact which connected with the paucity of sianatitres attached to the present. showed what was the telie of the people of 11,nehester. Perhaps the Hobse would allow him to mention no eirennistanee coldseeted with these petitions. Tie 4ailne et:tempt at clamour had been made now against the measure for ;he redet to the Catholics, which Intl been made a century ago against the Union With Scotland. It might be amusing to the EloUse to know, that one of the most acti7e agents in raising that clamour was the Earl of Yhttinglam. It should seem as if the fear of the over throw of Church and State descended by inheritance to the Earl of Nottingharn.—(Qaestion.)-s-The Earl ot that day was as far from bet!”.; fsveliealde to the Union with Scotland ai was the Earl of the present day from !avbilr.ng the concessions to tie Catholics. It tYdght be amusing to the House—(No, ne) ;—but whether it was amusing to the House or not, he intended to read (laughter) the words of the Earl of Nottingham of that day, regarding the Union with Scotland, that great mea sure of national union on which there was now no division of opiuion, but which he believed had not produced greater benefit to both countries than would be produced by the measures now proposed with regard to the Catholics. His wo ds were—" If that Union does pass, as I have no reason to doubt it will, I may justly affirm that I have outlived all the laws, and the very Constitution of England, and I therefore pray God to avert the dire effects of such an itn pauperating Union." In some future year the groundless- ness of the fears new existing with regard to Catholic Emancipation would be shown as strongly as those then expressed with respect to the Union. An Has. MEMBEK could bear his testimony to:the re spectability of the petitioners. The petition was then laid on the table. Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL presented petitions— twelve from parishes in the county of Kent, and two from parishes in Norfolk, against further concessions to the Roman Catholics.—Laid on the table. Mr. TtNNY SON postponed his motion regarding East Retford to Friday, the 17th April. CATHOLICS. Sir STEPHEN COLE presented a petition from the parish of Gilston, in Glamorganshire, against further concessions to the Catholics, but expressed his dissent from its prayer. Mr. CARTWRIGHT presented similar petitions from two perishes in Norfolk. Mr. WALL presented a petition from the inhabitants of Guilford, in favour of concession. Mr. NORTON said, that although no doubt that peti• tion expressed the sense of a numerous and respectable portion of the inhabitants of that borough, yet there was another portion who were equally respectable, who would present a counter petition in a few days. Lord BECTIVE presented a petition in favour of con cession from the county of Meath, and from one parish in the same county against the sub-letting Act; and from four parishes there against the Vestry Act. He also pre sented a petition from the Catholics of Navan, in the same county, complaining that not only were their children excluded front the advantages of the education given to the poor, but they were beset by proselytising landlords. Mr. 11. HOWARD presented a petition from Chichester, most respectably signed, against the employment of Climb ing Boys in cleansing Chimneys. Mr. HANCOCK presented a petition from Shitnrone, in King's county, against concessions to the Catholics. Sir C. A. HASTINGS presented a petition from the Mayor add Burgesses of Leicester, against concession, and expressed his concurrence with the opinions of the peti tioners. Mr. 0. CAVE said it was his duty to express to the House, with respect to that petition from the inhabitants of the town and county of Leicester— Sir C. A. HASTINGS—No, it is from the mayor and burgesses.—(A laugh.) The petition was laid on the table. Mr. DICK presented a petition from the borough of 3 , lalilon against concession. LENNA RD remarked, that this petition, signed only by one hundred and fifty persons, purported to come front a district and neighbourhood containing six thousand persons. That borough and district were, till lately, re markable for their opposition to the Catholic Claims, and the paucity of numbers he had now remarked tended to show the alteration that had taken place. Mr. C'AWTIIORNE presented a petition from the town of Lancaster against concessions to the Catholics. Mr. CURTEIS presented a similar petition from the ship-owners, &sc. of Westbourne, in Sussex. Mr. A. CAMPBELL presented similar petitions from the Corporations of Barbers and Cordwainas in the town of Glasgow. Mr. WALLIS gave notice of a motion for Friday, re specting the Act to remedy the abuses in Charities. Colonel 'WILSON pi-seated a petition from the inhabi•- tante of Stockton-on-Tees, against further concessions. Having already expressed his sentiments i , • that subject— (a laugh)--he should not trouble the House at that mo ment further than to say that the petition was .most re spectably- signed. Mr. LEYCESTER presented-a petition from Alton, in the county of Southampton.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. MABERL Y ?resented a petition from Aningdon eisainst coneession. The LORD MAYOR had a petition to present against further concessions to the Roman Catholies. That peti tion came from the Clergy of London, incorporated tinder the style and title of the President and Fellows of Sion Col leee, withi❑ tee city of Loudou. Toe Right Hun. Gen tleman then reed part of the petition, which stated that tt.e petitioners were opposed to coeceesion, not ruin any spirit of intolerance, but from a fear that it would he in consistent with the security of the Constitution. Ile then ob:i er e e d, that during the ten years he had had the honour of a seat in that House, he had thought it his duty to give his opposition to eonces-ion. lie had always done so from the moat disinterested and con.cientioue feeling ; but he was free to confess, that the question wee now about to be brought under the consideration of the House under dif ferent circumstances from any under which it had previ ously appeared before it. lie would not, therefore, join in reprobating a measure not yet proposed to them, and of which that House was still ignorant ; but he was ready to believe that the measure was recommended from a feeling of its necessity by his Majesty's Government. He had hitherto had full confidence in the Government, and he would not withdraw that confidence until lie had better reasons for doing so than the proposal of the measure seemed to offer.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. HUME said, it was with much pleasure he had to offer to the House a petition from the Dean and Guild, Council and Brethren of the Corporation of the Royal Burgh of Arbroath, in favour of the Catholic Claims. He knew, on good author ity, that by far the majority of the people of Scotland were in favour of the removal of all civil disabilities on account of religious opinions. There had been one or two meetings in Glasgow and other places, at which Resolutions had been passed against the exclusion of the Catholics. In Glasgow, particularly, it must be gratifying to his Majesty's Government to find that the petition for the Catholics had been carried by a large ma jority. The purport of the Resolutions on which the present petition was fiamded was, that it was the opinion of the petitioners that all political disabilities on account of reli gious opinions were as impolitic as unjust, and contrary to the spirit of Christianity'. he meeting consisted of several hundreds of people, and it was resolved to be their convic tion that much of the disquiet of the people of Ireland arose from the injustice with which they had been treated, and the petitioner► were thankful to his Majesty's Ministers for their endeavours to promote the tranquilli•y of that coun try. The Hon. Gentleman also stated, that he had re ceived communications from all parts of Se , ,tland, and they all agreed, without one exception, in confirming what ►ie had stated before—that the people of Scotland had very much changed their opinions on this question. Marquis GRAHAM presented petitions from the pa rishes of St. Sepulchre, and St. Andrew the Great, in Cambridge, against the Catholic Claims. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN presented a petition very numerously signed by the Protestant Dissenters and other residents in and near Plymouth, stating their full anti gra tifying sense of the civil and religious liberties they enjoy ed, and praying that equal privileges might he extended to all classes of his Majesty's subjects : and in order to ren der their services available to the public good, and thereby add materially to the power, greatness, and prosperity of the country. The petition was very respectably as well as numerously signed, and entitled to theattention of the House. On the motion of Mr. P. MeccstreeN, the Order of the Day for the Committee on the Settlement by Hiring Bill was postponed. On the motion of the Cuanctto.oa. of the EXCITE- Quxh, the Order of the Day . for the Coannitiee on the Clerk of the Pleas (Ireland) Bill was postponed till Mon. day next. COMMITTEE OP SUPIIL-V% Thb CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved, that the Order be read fur the whole House to go into a Committee of Supply. Mr. JEPHSON had a question to ask the Right Hon. Gentletiian, which reiaked ho the area of the tetroval of the drawback formerly allowed on the exportation of win dow glass from Ireland ? This removal had been very in jurious to the glass works of that country; and as from the statement made by the Right Hon. Gentleman when he brought the question fotward, it was evident he was fully aware of the state of this manufacture, in Leland, of which a great share was gradually introduced into this Country, he (Jr. Jeplison) hoped for the Right Hon. Gen tleman's attention to the subject. The fact was, that the price of window glass had sustained a great increase; it was now threttold what it watt before the removal of the drawback. He asked for its renewal, in order to give some relief to the poorer classes, who subsisted by the glass-works, without, he believed, injuring the revenue. It was desirable, he thought, that a drawback of the same amount as was formerly allowed should be granted to the glass manufacture of Ireland, as to pieces of certain dimen sions, and of certain kinda, beginning, for example, with thou• of one foot square. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could baldly think that the amount of glass manufactured in Ireland had been affected by the removal of the drawback. Certainly no information had been received by Govern ment to that effect ; and when the House considered the relative value of the article then and now, he could not believe that such an effect had been produced. The object of the removal of the drawback was to put an end to the enormous extent of fraud. He was disposed to give every relaxation that could be afforded, so as to increase the em ployment of the lower orders of Ireland. If the draw back were re-established, it would only again give rise, he feared, to a great deal of fraud on the Revenue, and be of no benefit to the people. For those reasons he could not hold out any hope of acceding to the lion. Member's views. Mr. JEPHSON really thought the duty on glass exces sive; on what was intrinsically worth only 41., the duty was between 6/. and 71. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the duty was only SI. 135., which, looking to the cost of the glass, was, he thought, not very disproportionate. ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. • The House then went into a Committee, to which the Ordnance Estimates were referred. Mr. PERCEVAL said, that in appearance the Esti mates this year were greater than those of last year, and in the vete he should have to propose there was a very large increase. There was, undoubtedly, an increase in the vote for this year as compared with the last, which was 125,897/, as it was stated at the bottom of the fourth page of the Estimates lying before the Committee. In en tering on the comparison of the two years, he should leave out entirely the sum of 6,115/. to be voted for five compa nies of the Royal Staff Corps, who were to be transferred to the Ordnance from the 24th of June next, and which, therefore, would, from that time, hear an increased charge to that amount on the Army Estimates. It had formed no part of the former charge, and could not fairly enter into the comparison between this year and the last. He should therefore leaVe it entirely out of the question, and consider the vote far this year was 125,897/.,more than last year. The Board of Ordnance had been able to snake credits to the extent of 49,1501. less this year than the last. These credits arose from the rent of building land in Kent, and the sale of old stores. Large quantities of stores used to he kept, and from time to time considerable sales of these had been made, the produce of Which had. gone in diminu tion of the sum to be asked from Parliament. Deducting this sum from the actual increase appa rent on the estimates, there would remain an increase of expenditure this year to the amount of 76,7471. In stating this increase to the Committee, he begged to remind those Hon. Members who had given their attention to the Estimates of this department, and who belonged to the Finance Committee, or who had read the Report with re gard to it, that in that document they would find the evi dence of his Right Hon. Friend, the Secretary at War, who, speaking on the subject of the works, stated, that " to diminish the expenditure by 75,0001. or 100,000/. this department had been reduced, in 1827, as low as it could possibly be ;" and his Right Hon. Friend after wards explained, that " there must be a surplus, because military orders were peremptory ;" adding, that, " accord ing to the evidence before the Committee, this reduction would be no saving." His Hon. Friend, Sir George Clerk, also stated that he was perfectly aware of the fact, that " when the proposition was made the Inspector-Ge neral protested that it was impracticable, unless perfectly understood that it was intended only as an experiment for one year." The consequence of this was an increase, under thV head of works and fortifications, to the amount of 69,0001. ; to which adding the increase of 14,0001. for the purchase of stores, the general increase was accounted for. By turning to the same evidence, Hon. Members would see, on the same authority, that it was impossible for the business of the department to go on with so small a vote for stores as had hitherto sufficed ; and for the same reason, namely, because formery the Board was able to deduct sums for the sale of stores, and come to this House and ask for much smaller votes on account of that sur plus. The stock would for the future be adjusted to the real demand every year. As there was an increase of 69,0001. for works, 14,000/. more for stores, and in other items 83,000/., and as the excess of expenditure altogether was only 125,8971., it was obvious to common sense that there must be altogether on the other heads of the estimates A diminution to the amount of 30,000/. It was Fatibfae tory to state, that this diminution was chiefly in the estab lishment of the Ordnance; it was especially in the Civil Establishment, in the • Departments at Woolwich, in the Medical Establishment, and in the Royal Military Aca demy, that reductions had taken place. He ought to re mark, that for that very reason, the considering the reduc tiou in the charge for the artdiery, which had been forced on the Ordnance Establishment in 1828, it would he un fair to take that year in comparison with the present year. Fite only fair mode would be, to compare these Estimates with an average of the three years betme 1828, and then it would be proved that there was a diminution of 20,000/. a year: The average expellee of the artillery during those three years was 914,214/., and the expenee for 1829 would be 893,9001., which was a diminution, as he had before stated, of nearly 20,000/. On dividing the Estimates of that year into the two heads of effective and non-effective, it semi d appear that on the effective there was is decrease of 74,0001. ; inete id of which there was, on the other hand, an increase on the non-effective head, of about 76,000/. He would only observe, that the decrease was on the effec tive, and not on the non-effective, which was beyond the controul of the Oidnance Department; for when once the superannuation was fixed, it remained during the life of,the party ; and these charges frequently resulted from the very reductions made in the Establishments with the view of decreasing the public expenditure. He did not doubt that many Hon. Members would be much perplexed in examin ing these estimates, as the changes in their mode of com pilation had been considerable, with the view of bringing under the distinct heads all the proper expenses of each. Sever al sums that used to be voted in what were called the Supplementary Estimates, were now included in the items to which they properly belonged. A great number of clerks' salaries had been voted formerly under the head of Barracks, Military Stores, and the Superannuation Esta blishments. The whole charge of the Civil Establishment would now be borne under that head. In comparing the no minal items for the Pall-mall Office this year with the nomi nal items of last year, the present estimates would appear much greater than they recently were. On the whole, the expense of the Civil Establishment last year was 483,531/, and the vote now proposed would be 500,600/. ; but it sheuld be remembered, that under this head the charges for the clerks were borne, who in 1828 were supplied from a different source. If to 463,500/. were added this increase of 24,000/. the vote for that year would amount to 507,500/. ; from which deducting the present vote of 500,6104, and the result would show, that on the Civil Establishment, there was an actual diminution of nearly 7,000/. In the other votes for the Departments at Woolwich, the Medical Esta blishment and the Professors of the Royal Military Aca demy, there was a small reduction ; in the Military Corps there was the same establishment as last year, and conse quently the same charge. He had only now to invite the attention of the Committee to the Extraordinariee, which included two items, one for 79,4451. for the military store branch, and 14,1671. for furniture and stores for barracks and hospitals. Into the other items he would not enter in detail, as they were small in amount, and of a fluctuating nature ; he meant such as the different heads of contingent and miscellaneous charges. There was one item of 18,400/. for the purchase of land at Sheerness, to keep off the erec tion of buildings which might interfere with the works. The same observation held good With regard to the or dinary service of Ireland; for if the vote to be proposed for this year was merely compared with that of last year, there would seem an excess in the present vote. The charge of last year was only 124,108/., and for this year 128,979/. ; but the apparent increase was owing to the transfer of charges to this department. In the super annuation for military and civil -services there was an ap parent increase, and actually was, so far as the vote was concerned of 2,3711. ; but the actual charge to the public was lint really greater. When the Hoa. Baronet (Sir G. Clerk), who preceded him in this office submitted the Estimates last year, he followed a course With regard to the superannuation allowance which had not been pursued previoo.ly in the Ordnance deportment, and which he (Mr. Perceval) would not continue. Thilt course was, to de duct from the estimate of the charge the savings made by the superannuation of officers, and by their promotion or death. By this plan 2,0001. had been deducted from this item last year. He would not enter into the argument of this mode of proceeding, but merely state that it would not be pursued, and he referred to it merely to exp'ain the apparent increase of the item this year. The Hon. Gen tleman made some further remarks on other ite.ns, but he spoke in an low a tone, and the noise in the Gallery all through his speech was so great, that he could not be heard distinctly for a sentence toeirther. He concluded by moving that " there be granted to his Majesty a sum of 70.5441., to defray the salaries of the Master-General, the Lieute n tat-General, and the rest of the principal Officers and Clerk. in the Ordnance Office at the Tower and Pall-mall, for 1829." Mr. HUME confessed lie was rather disposed to waive the discussion of these Estimates, as a very long time had been spent by the Finance Committee in examining them ; and he owned that by the evidence, very little progress was made to warrant any reduction whatever. The Gal lant Officer. the Secretary at War, had given a decisive opinion on the subject of almost every reduction ; and lie willingly conceded that the Gallant Officer had done so with perfect propriety. The difference between those Es timates and those of last year it was undoubtedly very dif ficult to understand, though on the whole he believed the aggregate increase was not so great as it appeared. He approved of any consolidation of the public accounts : it was desirable that they should be rendered clear and dis tinct, and each head brought under one view. He was not able, for want of the necessary returns, to make out where additions had been made; but be observed in some instances that there was a much greater number of per sons included in those items. The clerks of the Sur veyor-General, last year were 29 in number; this year they were increased to 47 : the clerks of the Ordnance from 23 were increased to 33, and in another department they were raised from 17 to 32. He had no means, at present, of knowing whether this increase was correct. He regretted extremely to observe, from the expressions used by the Hon. Gentleman, that his Majesty's Ministers seemed to consider themselves to have reduced to the lowest ebb the department of Ordnance. The artillery were now separated from the Commander-in-Chief, who knew the officers only by chance in foreign service ; and this would remain so while there was an intermediate in the person of the Master-General, who stopped all communication. He submitted to the Gallant Officer (Sir H. Hardinge), whether it would not be attended with great reduction and great benefit to that branch of our military service, if, in stead of a separate department, consisting of the Master- General, Lieut.-General, and other chief officers of the Board of Ordnance, who had duties incompotible with a due attention to the artillery, that corps were placed with a command, directly under the Commander-in-Chief ; and the same course he would recommend with regard to the Engineers ; and thus the whole military branch of Ordnance might be detached from that depart ment, which would remain charged only with its proper duty of keeping the stores. In India the artillery were so placed, with a commandant of their own under the Commander-in-Chief. The divest ing of the military branch from the Ordnance would ren der unnecessary the office of Master-General and Sur veyor-General, and the charge of the department would be greatly reduced. Only so many individuals should be kept up as there was actual necessity for ; hut at present, owing to the complicated duties discharged there the num ber was unreasonably great. For example, there were 26 messengers for this department alone—enough for the whole public offices together ; and these men had salaries of 1001., 901., and 80/. a year. He had often asked, and never received a satisfactory answer to his question, why this number was kept up ? Ile could only imagine they were rendered necessary by going messages from the one half of the offices in the Tower to the other half at Pall mall. A very large portion of the 70,5441., which it was now proposed to vote, might be dispensed with. In 1796 the whole of that part of the Ordnance service for which it was now proposed to vote that sum of 70,5441. was limited to the expence of 18,7001. Mr. PERCEVAL defended the vote. Mr. A. BARING, adverting to the proposed grants in the Estimates for Canada and Nova Scotia, wished to know how the works there stood. Sir 11. HARDINGE stated that these were in progress. The gross sum which it was estimated would be required to place those colonies in a perfect state of defence was a million and a half; but only 35,0001. were asked for the present year. That great work, the Rideau Canal, when completed, would answer every purpose for which it was intended when it was originally proposed. Mr. BARING, although he acknowledged that the Rideau Canal would be a great improvement to the Cana das, t:,aught the money laid out upon it extravagant. Mr. HUME observed, that no answer had been made to his objection to the 26 Messengers. Sir H. HARDINtiE replied, that the intercourse be tween the Tower, Tooley-strcet, and Pall-mall, gave them enough to do. Employing a Messenger to :Woolwich had been found to save 2001. a-year, as compared with sending letters by post; besides the conveniece of the at , raogeniant in point of time. Mr. MAI3ERLY said, that there were always men and • horses enough at Woolwich. Why not employ a military • instead of a civil messenger? Why not consolidate the • establishments of the Tower and Pall-Mall ? Let the _clerks be removed from the Tower to Pall-Mall, and then so many porters and messengers would bo unnecessary. Mr. PERCEVAL said that the stores rendered it ad visable to keep some of the clerks at the Tower; and that the saving effected by the recommendation of the Hon. Gentleman would he very trifling. Mr. MABERLY explained. Sir HENRY HARDINGE acknowledged that it would he personally convenient to himself, were the clerks at the Tower brought to Pall-Mall. But as, under any circum stances, same of the clerks must be left at the Tower, the full benefit of a removal could not be derived.— Atide,l; ;;:i;;as—the consideration of the compensation th a must be given to them for the house which they now had at the Tower. After a few words from Mr. Hums, the CHANCELLOa of the EXCHEQUER, and Mr. MAIKKLT, the vote of 70,5441. was agreed to. On the question for granting 8,6001. for defraying the expellee of Salaries of the Officers of the Establishment at Woolwich, Mr. HUME inquired why the Inspector-General of Artillery, who was an officer, continued to receive 3501. a-year, besides his other emoluments ? Sir HENRY HARDINGE—The Inspector, though a General in rank, had only a Colonel's pay, and the 3501. was only Staff pay. Mr. MABERLY recommended that instead of a mili tary officer to inspect the artillery, which embraced much common work, a skilful wheelwright should be appointed to the office. Sir HENRY FIARDINGE said, that all the improve ments made in our artillery, which had brought it to be the most effective in Europe, had been effected by officers. Mr. HUSIE was of opinion that a wheelwright, or skilful mechanic, would be better for the office than a Gene ral Officer. But letting that pass, he begged to inquire why an Inspector of Gunpowder was kept at Feversham, when the powder was made at Waltham Abbey ? We made about one thousand barrels of powder a year at Waltham Abbey ; and the inspector of this manufactory lived at Feversham. This was a good specimen of the mode of managing business at the Ordnance. - Sir HENRY HARDINGE contended that it was ne cessary to have a good store of powder in case of war ; and according to the scale of our expenditure last war, we h a d not above three or four years' supply on hand. At Feversham there was a manufactory for restoring and dust ing powder ; and if the Inspector lived at Waltham, he would have to visit Feversham. The Ordnance wished to consolidate the manufacture, but it was impossible, for the buildings were already erected at Fevereham and at Wal tham Abbey. Mr. HUME contended that viliat was done at Fever• o wn m ight be done at Waltham Abbey. We were manu facturing powder at an actual lose, which might be avoid ed. Ile had visited the powder manufactory at Fever sham, in order' to verify some statements made to him, and the persons present would not admit him.—(A laugh.)— It was quite wrong to calculate the expense of powder by what we expended when we had 360,000 men under arms, and 1,000 pendants flying. Our present expendi ditui'e was 8 000 barrels a year, and we had 200,000 bar rels in store. Sir HENRY HARDINGE observed, that in the 16th Report of the Military Commissioners, it was stated that the e stablishment at 'Waltham Abbey had saved the coun try 79,4531. up to 1814, and since that period it had saved the country 25,000/. per year. After a few further observations from Mr. Wynn, Sir Henry Hardinge, Mr. Hume, Mr. Maberly, and Mr. Baring, the vote was agreed to. On the question for granting 42,8171. for the salary of the w Civil Establishments of the °flee of Ordnance on the Home and Foreign Stations, Mr. HUME objected to the salary of the Storekeeper at Dover and Enfield, and contended that these two offices were unnecessary. After a cgsversatien between Mr. Perceval, Sir H. Hardinge, and Mr. Hume, the vote was passed. The next votes were for 3,813/. for the expenses of Master Gunners ; 71,959/. for the corps of Engineers and Sappers and Miners. Mr. HUME objected to the great sum charged for the pay of officers in this latter department. Sir H. HARDINGE said that the subject had been scrutinised by the Finmsce Committee, and that in his opinion, the Officers of Engineers were the most employ ed sand the worst paid. The next vote was for 257,342/. for the Artillery. Mr. HUME objected to keeping up 4,000 Artillery men in peace. The whole expence prior to 1793 tvas 100,0001. The next votes were 29,413/. for the Horse and Rocket Artillery; 1,223/. for the Director of Artillery and the Field Train ; 8,392/. for the Medical Establishment of the Ordnance. Mr. HUME wished the Medical Officers to be available for every branch of service. Government were discharg ing Medical Officers of the army, and taking on others for the Ordnance. Sir H. HARDINGE maintained that such an arrange ment would not be to the advantage of the public service. The number of Medical Officers had been reduced from 118 to about 30. . _ ' Mr. BARING could not agree in the necessity of sepa rate Medical Establishments for the different branches of the service. The vote was then put and carried. On the vote of 8,5071. to the Professors of the Royal Academy at Woolwich, Mr. HUME suggested that the Establishment ought to be assitnilated to that of the Naval Academy. In peace individuals ought to pay for their own education. On the vote of 430.715/. for the Extraordinaries of the Ordnance, deducting 130,0001. for old stores, Mr. WARBURTON thought the public ought to have the benefit of the Ordnance survey, which had cost so much, and that the survey of Ireland ought to be finished. Sir H. HARDINGE said, that the Irish _survey would be carried on immediately, and the whole would be en graved in the Tower of London. After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. HUME adverted to the great expences incurred ut the Colonies, and maintained that the Colonies ought to bear such charges. The money raised at Gibraltar, for public works, was brought to England, and applied to the King's private purse, and the people of England were then taxed to perform these works.—(Hear, hear.)—The Hun. Member went into several other practices of a simi lar nature. A MEMBER said that these sums were applied to the King's Palace.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. PERCEVAL said that the repairs of Gibraltar were very extensive. Mr. MABERLY observed, that the works of Canada would oblige Government to keep double the present force to defend it, and very soon the Canadian would see th• expediency of governing themselves. Mr. S. PERCEVAL next moved that a vote of 302,5761. be granted as the charge of the Office of Ord nance for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ire land, on account of allowances to superannuated, retired, and half-pay Officers ;to Officers for good services ;to superannuated and disabled men ; also for pensions to widows and children of deceased Officers, late belonging to the several Ordnance Military Corps, for the year 1829. After a few words from Mr. Hume and Mr, CROKSK, The resolution was ae,teed to. Mr. S. PERCEVAL next moved that a vote of 45,6441. be granted to his Majesty as the estimate of charge fot the Civil Superannuated or Retired Allowances to persons late belonging to the Office of Ordnance in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in respect of their having held any public offices or employments of a civil ■atute. _ . The next Resolution was 117,6361. as the total sum for the expence of Barracks in Great Britain and Ire land, which, as well as the preceding Resolution, was agreed to. The following Resolutions were then moved and agreed to:- 102, 721/. for defraying the charge of the Barrack De partment in Ireland, after deducting a sum of 10,8501., savings made upon stores of a former year. 93,6121. for the charge of the Military Store Branch of Great Britain, Ireland, and the Colonies. 2,6001. to defray the Exchequer and Treasury Fees, on the total amount of the preceding votes. 6,1151. to meet the Estimate of the Pay and Allow ances of the Five Companies of the Royal Staff Corps, transferred to the Ordnance from the Army Estimate., for six months, commencing from the 25th of June, 1829. The House having resumed, the Report was brought up, and ordered to he received to-morrow. WAYS AND MEANS. On the:motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE QUER, the ;louse went into a Committee of Ways and Means. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved, that an advance of 12,000,0001. be granted as a portion of the supply required by his Majesty for the service of the year. After a few words from Mr. HUME, the Resolution was agreed to. The House having resumed, the Report was brought up, and ordered to be received to-morrow. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. Sir A. GRANT brought up the Report of the Com mittee of Supply. The Resolutions were read and agreed to, and leave given to bring in a Bill pursuant thereunto. Sir G. CLERK brought up the Report of the London Bridge Committee. The Resolutions were agreed to, and leave was given to bring in the Bill. ARMY MUTINY BILL. Sir H. HARDINGE brought up the Report of the Army Mutiny Bill. The Resolutions were read and agreed to, and leave was given to bring in the Bill. The Bill was then brought in and read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow ; to be committed pro forma, and then to have it printed and put into the hands of Members. ARMY ESTIMATES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought up Papers connected with the Army Ettraordinarics and Civil Contingencies.—Ordered to be printed. The House adjourned at a Quarter to Twelve o'clock. OXFORD ELECTION. To the Rev. THOMAS WINTLE, 8.D., Chairman o the Committee at Oxford; To C. J. FYNES CLINTON, Esq., M.P., Chairman of the Committee in London, For Conducting the Election of Sir Robert Harry Inglis, Bart., for the Uoivereity of Oxford. My dear Sirs, London, March 2, 1829. I thank you gratefully and respectfully for the honour which you and my other friends have conferred upon me by your support at the late Election - of a Representative for the University of Oxford. The trust to which lam thus suddenly called is one which 1 have always regarded as the most veinal le to which an English Commoner could attain. That trust reflected honour even upon such men as Sir William Scott and Mr. Abbott. It was the object of Mr. Canning's early and late ambition ; and in the discharge of it Mr. Peel for many years faithfully and honourably re presented the opinions of the most enlightened body of constituents in the empire. To succeed any one of these distinguished i n dividuals in such a station is a prize for which any other man might well feel it his highest honour to contend ; but I regard not my success as any matter of mere personal g ratification, because I cannot attribute it to any personal preference in my favour. I value the re sult of the election as recording the high-minded consistency with which the great majority of the first University in the world has refused to listen to every ordinary and sordid motive of personal interest—l value that result still more as recording deliberately the opinions of the most intellec tual and most influential holy in England on the Roman Catholic Question, the great trial which was practically submitted to them in the persons of the two candidates—l value it because it has proved that in the judgment of so many entitled to guide public opinion in so many ,parts of England the Constitution of England ought to be preserved fundamentally and exclusively Protestant ; that no infring ment ought to be made upon the great Settlement of 16548, under which, by the blessing of God, this country has become the greatest, the most free, the happiest of nations; and that, in order to promote the continuance of these re sults, we must continue the operation of the same causes, and must remain a Protestant people, with a Protestant Legislature, the only security for a Protestant King. With an earnest desire to support the municipal rights and privileges of the University, with an ardent determina ' tion to uphold by all the means in my power the cause of the Established Church, and to promote in Parliament the best interests of the Country, which are identified with that Church, I have the honour to remain, With great respect, Your obliged and faithful servant, ROBERT HARRY INGLIS. DR. PHILLPOTTS AND THE CHAPTER OF CHESTER. TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN. Stu,—l am sorry to differ from you in opinion that the letter addressed by the Dean of Chester to the Rev. Dr. Ellerton, exculpates the former from the charge of inconsistency. On the contrary, I am not surprised at the incredulity of his Oxford friends, when they heard it rumoured that the Dean had become an advocate for conceding the Catholic claims. The Dean attempts to prove his consistency by quoting the following sentence from his letter on the Coronation oath :—" In one word, then, see whether you (tlie Roman Catholics) can offer us any real and adequate security for our church, if the boon you ask be granted; or try to find the securi ties which we on our part may devise, such as you can conscientiously accede to." If, Mr. Editor, this single, unconnected sentence is to be understood as implying in good faith, that the Dean adverted to some day (however distant) when he himself might become, with due con• sistency, an advocate for concession, there is no rv , liance, no confidence to be placed in any writings, either sacred or profane, that the world ever saw. — I would ask the Dean of Chester whether very serious errors, very great perversions of the Holy Scriptures, have not arisen from selecting single isolated passages, without reference to the context. in order to maintain certain opinions which are in fact opposed to the general tenor and spirit of the sacred volume? And so among profane authors, would it not ha easy to select passages which would appear to be 'at issue with the whole scope and tenor of their writ ings ? For instance, in Dr. Phillpotts' # celebrated letter to the late Mr. Canning, page 165, we find him schooling that eminent statesman thus, " that you are incapable of wilfully betraying any course, we well know ; but inconstancy, if not so base as treachery, is often not less mischievous." This pas sage is to be found, not indeed among those pages to which he has referred his correspondent, to prove lie is not guilty of inconstancy himself, but in the page which immediately follows. I wish to remark, that in the sentence the Dean hus chosen to quote from himself, the following words are printed in italics, " the securities which we on our part may devise." Rumour, says the Dean, has had a hand in the forthcoming Bill; and certainly the Newspapers told us lately that he has had an audience with the Duke of Wellington. If this be a fact, perhaps the Doctor's motive for referring his Oxford correspon pondent to pages 158-164 is apparent; and the Bill about to be proposed to the Legislature may con tain the Dean's substitute for the oath against transubstantiation. But if, again, this should turn out to be the case, what are we to think of his affirmation in this same letter to Dr. Ellerton, that li e is ignorant of the character of the intended Bill ? To have done with conjecture, which, with refe rence to such flexible materials, is altogether vain, I . ask the Dean if he can conceive for a moment that , the dying Statesman, who was harassed almost in his last moments by this wily letter, so officious too,. and so uncalled for, could, by any application of his own acute mind to the matter of it, have anticipated the day when his Rev. Correspondent would him self become the advocate of concession, on p►tinciples as liberal and unshackled, probably, as those of the Bill in 1825 ? Can he believe that any individual now ~ living could augur these pleasing day dreams? Shall ,s 1 I tell the Rev. Gentleman, as a plain-reading and plain-speaking man, in what sense I read the passage quoted to prove his consistency ? It was as follows :—not that the Dean ever thought or expected any measure could actually be devised, equally recog niz'ng the claims of the Roman Catholic and the Protestant Church, but that the passage, in con formity with the sprit and obvious purport of the entire letter, was written in the Ws/ of taunt or challenge, as " shew us any real securities if you can ;" and, as Purcell's song sap, " Come if you dare." t This was the sense in which I read it, and I must plead guilty to the charge brought against some of his readers, in not discovering any subterfuge, by which the Dean might, some fine morning, under the excitation of n rising Sun, turn round and say, "It is rather hard that I should be made answerable for their inadvert' ence." But why am I so anxious to bring horns the charge of inconstancy and inconsistency to the Dean of Chester ? Because I am more afraid of him as a friend than an enemy. I would not flatter him, however, so far as to admit, be his present opinions what they may, either theological or poli tical (the former I have no means of knowing)► that people in general are at all concerned in them and I beg to assure him that, individually, 1 should feel somewhat indignant to be catechized or instructed by him on any subject. I should prefer listening to the consistent, unchanging, and un changeable opinions of another member of the same Chapter of Chester, who has lately made so eloquent and so powerful an appeal to the clergy of his Arch deaconry, on declining to call them together in the East Riding of Yorkshire, for the purpose of peti tioning Parliament to grant no further concessions to the Roman Catholics. I will conclude, Mr. Editor, with one more extract from the Dean of Chester's letter to the late Mr. Canning, in the truth of which I heartily acquiesce :—" It matters little what shall be thought or said of him or of his puny labours." Your's, Sir, SURRIENSIS. N. 8.—1 think the Clergy of that Establishment may employ their time more usefully and creditably than in composing a discourse for next Sunday, to inveigh against the gracious recommendation of his Majesty to the assembled Parliament of this united empire, according to the recommendation of the Morning Journal. • A profane author. t The song goes on to say, " The gods, from above, the mad labour behold, And pity mankind, that will perish by gold." The following Noblemen had grand dinner parties on Saturday :—The Marquis of Salisbury, Ha nover-square ; Earl Bathurst, Great Staahope-street; the Hon. Agar Ellis, Spring-gardens; Sir Geo. Clerk, Bart• Admiralty. - - The Countess of Sefton entertained a large party of fashionables yesterday evening, at her house Iss . Arlington-street, but had not a ball as had been stated. Mrs. Mitchell has issued cards, at home every We,lnesday this month, at her house in Charles-street , Berkeley-square. Mr Spence was yesterday to be returned for Ripon free of any expence whaterer. A caravan, containing 90,000/. worth of plate, the property of the Duke of Northumberland, has passed through this county on its route to Ireland ; it was escorted by a small body of soldiers.--Staffordshire Advertiser. •Stet a The Duke of Wellington has addre:. most polite letter to the Rev. Mr. Groves, in acknowledg ment of the petition (the offspring of the great Rotunda Meeting) forwarded to his Grace some short time ago The noble Duke pledges hitnstlf to present it at the ear liest opportunity.--Dublin Freeman's Journal.