The Sun. — London, England, 1858-06-08 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JUNE 8, 1858, to establish the whole principle of the Indian army and the Indian Government in direct violation of the Bill of Rights. He would not further demand the assent of the committee. He submit ted these views perfectly bona fide. The question before then was not whether they would refrain altoget her from legislation, but whe ther they would persevere in an attempt at final legisla tien, when it was imp ossible any legislat ion could be final or eatisfectory. The hon. and learned member for Sheffield :teed not be afrai d ; even i f this resolution was adopted, the hon. and learned gentleman would have abundance cf discussion on his i proposal, and ample op portenity of bringing i t t o an issue. He submitted his view with confidence to the house. Ho believed he pro pos,cl as much as could be done with safety. It made a considerable change, and that in harmony with the vote to which the house had arrived. If they thought fit at a future period to proceed further, his motion would form no impediment. On the contrary, it would give them some pra ctical experience—(hear)—of the mode of carrying Into operation the union of the executive mini ster with an independent council. After twelve months they would be in a much better position to arrive at a desleitive solution of the questiou of Indian legislation. What was the object of the extraordinary haste ! They were told it was to have the benefit of the authority of the Crown in India. By his proposal they would have the benefit of that authority. They were told it was desirable to make Parliameist more cognisant of Indian affairs, to bring the public opinion of England to bear on them, and inspire the people with a deepe r feeling of the responsibilities they had contracted. What was required to direct the attention of the people of Eng land to that country, so long as mail af t er mail brought tidings of new bodies of insurgents in arms, of new disturbances in the districts that had been re-occupied ; so long as each mail tFlls that the best blood of England is being spent in war, under all the disadvantages of the hot season. There was no danger that the attention of the British people would not be kept directed to it. There was only one other ground for proceeding with legislation at this moment. It might have happened that the whole adm inistrative system had broken down. So far from that being the case, however, he was honestly bound to say that the system of government in Leadenhall-street could not be considered to have broken down as an administrative system. It might be that as a nation we were not en dowed with administrative talents. He had no special leaning towards the East India Company. All hie as sociations were with the ordinary machinery of govern ment ; but he must say that the government of the East India Company and the Government of the Crown had been tested as administrations under circumstances of great suddenness and great pressure, and he must say that the East India Company, so far from having failed, had discharged their duties in a manner to entitle them to the la-ting gratitude of the country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had lamented the want of information in the house and country. That was the case. He would put a test to the committee. Had any one of them heard any gentleman say, "If you want to get up the Indi question, read the debates?" On the contrary, he had heard rather irreverent remarks, that they had dogma tised without knowledge, and marched forward without considering whether they had before them a path or a precipice. He did not find any one incline to give them the credit they obtained on that subject uf showing they )were masters of their business and knew what they were ghee. He had ventured to introduce his views to the house as involving no party difference, no personal con sideration, but as his honest opinion after candid con sideration. So far as his intention and convictions were concerned be had honestly attempted to give effect to the lodgment of the house—so far as it had already been dectared—and to carry out the important changes they had Jecided on. He believed ha had suggested the course best advted to the maintenance of their own dignity, and mutt in consonance with their duty and obligation to maintain, study, and promote the interests of the people of Engle/ed. (Loud cheers.) Lord STANLEY said,—Kn swing as I do, and know • legs as this house does, the power with which the right bon. gentleman treats every subject with which he has to deal—knowing the sympathy which such an amend ment as that he has put on the paper could not f ill to command in this house—knowing, moreover, how easy it is, even for those gifted with far inferior powers, to nssign on almost any subject plausible reasons in favour of delay and in favour of hesitation with reference to any decided course which it has been proposed to take, I cannot be surprised that the speech of the right hon. gentleman should have produced, as undoubtedly it has done, a considerable impression on the house. (Hear ) But though I quite allow that the object and purpose of the right hon. gentleman's amendment are different in come respects from the objects and purposes formerly submitted in the same spirit to the house, yet I could not but think, when I listened to the right hon. gentle. man, that some of the arguments he most strenously employed were arguments which I had heard before, and that at no distant date. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman dwelt on the time at which we propose to make this change, on the disturbed state of affairs is India, on the dangers of party spirit, and on the com plexity and intricacy of the subject with which we have to deal. These topics and arguments have all been touched on before ; they were all urged by the noble lord the member for Durham (Lord H. Vane) some six weeks ago ; and what was the decision at which the house arrived After a debate of scarcely two hours, the the proposition then made in favour of postponing the discussion of this subject was negatived, not by a hare majority, but by one of the most overwhelming majori ties ever recorded in this house. (Hear, hear.) What are the oLjections to preceding with the meaeura of the Government I The right hon. gentleman objects to proceeding with it at this time of the year, and he has re ferred to a late motion male in this house as indicating the spirit in which it is likely Indian affairs will be dis cussed. He has adverted also to the continuance of the vier is India, and he has told us of the great intricacies and difficulties of the question. Now, with regard to the question of time, I will not go back beyond the pre ceoent of 1856, though I may just mention in passing that on almost all former occasions when this house entered upon the renewal of the East India charter the duty was undertaken at a period of the year quite as advanced as this. (Hear, hear.) But to go no further back than 1556, I may remind the house that though the question of the Home Government of India was not then dealt with in so comprehensive a manner as now, yet in the bill introduced by the right hon. gentleman the member for Halifax no slight or unimportant changes were imported into the system of government, (Hear, hear.) Let me also remind the house that we are now beginning anew to deal with this subject. We have had before us ever since February the plan of the late Go vernment. Since December last we have had intimations of that plan being in progress, for we were then told that Indian affairs would call for our most serious considera tion. Ever since that time, and, indeed, for months before, every newspaper and every review has been full of the subject, and the public mind has been called, as it never was before, by occurrences of the most dreadful kind, to consider the question of Indian administration. (Hear, hear.) I venture to repeat what I said on a for mer occasion, that I do not believe you can ever have a snore favourable occasion than the present to consider this subject. It would be a strange alt fission cf utakne,s and incapacity if, after S:X months' deficitive notice, and after the attention of al, England has been called for twelve months to Indian affairs, we were now ta-declare that we were incompetent to make a perma nent et ttlernent—l do not say of the whole Indian ques tion, but a settlement of that part of the question with which alone we are called to deal. The right hon. gen tleman speaks of the effect and influence of party spirit on this question. The noble lord the member for Durham six weeks ado pr-ceded hint on that topic; but the noble lord V.:B tnenuhr for Durham tad not the adva❑tong. of some event.; which have since occurred. The right hoe. gentleman referred t, a late event, the memory of which is fresh with na all, as affording an unfavourable i❑dication of the manner in which Indian questions ate treatetrin this flume. Übinembering tha: event—remember ing the debate that took place, and the conclusion the house came to, I am inclined, from pre cisely the same premises, to draw a precisely opposite conelusion. I think many were led at that time to sup. port the Government of the day from a scrupulous desire not in any manner to bring India within the scope of party conflizt in this house. (hear) With regard to the state of the insurrection in India I have no wish to mis- lead the house. I agree with the right hon. gentleman when he ua that the war now being waged in India is not at an end. I agree with him that, though the wort is new over, the war is far from being at an end. arn_afraid in some district-s, though it may not be a war eritous to the empire, that those military operations will be long. I tear that they will be harassing to the troopa, and may involve a considerable sacrifice of valu- But how far, and to what extent, does that state of affairs impede oar proceedings in the work of re construction of the home government of India I (Rear.) For 12 months that war has raged, for six months the %thole question has been open, and it has been publicly a'nnonneed, on the highest authority, that the .existing Systbm of the Indian Government at'home i■ discredited' as there been any complaint—has it been cud that the effect r.,f that announcement has been to impe 'e the o-,tryingonof operations in India or to ditnini-1 the public eorguitlernauit of t hoso who are employed-3 The right hon. appeals d to the noble lord the member for Tiverton, and asked whether, if the noble lord Thad known the diniens,inn,4l4 have distu r b ance i n I n di a was a b out to assume, ~ I, av ta proceeded with his proposed course of le g i s l ttion 8 . u ,, ,e stand in a different position from that in which the noble,,‘ 1 n-s 1 stood. The noble lord thought, and I am far tro that the state of o,ffAirs in 11)&14 required grea te r Lim, p u romptitude in carring or, the Indian business at home r one of the rea• 4 i 0:1 1: 12 rcourse of legisla tions alleged by him for enteri ti n o g tion, W d are in a different o u r power to deal wit h this me teor au I t i* not in the question not been raised. (ffe:sr.) The questio n h as had been raised, and the confidence o f all p ersons in the system and m chaniem by which the administration of Indian af fairs ---e -tome is carried on has bee n diminished. • It se e ms at o me that the only manner of restoring that confidence—. and it ie nirar more important than ever that it should h e felt in the administration of Indian affairs—is to close up ajain tie speedily u possible, and as permanently as poe- Bible, that part of the question which has been opened. (Hear, hear.) The right hon,, gentleman spoke of the complexity and difficulty of this Indian question. lam far from denyielg that it is a most difficult and intricate pr iblem ; but I think the right hon. gentleman has con founded two things which are essentially distinct— nemely, the administration of Indian affairs in India, arid the composition of that body which in this country is to exercise a general direction and control over the Indian Government. The right hon. gentleman has opened some of the widest questions with which a states• man can possibly be called to deal. He has told us of the necessity of giving an open career to the natives of India and of elevating them in the social scale ; he has told us how social improvement is necessarily connected with some degree of political power ; and with all that he said on that subject, and with the high authority he quoted to confirm his opinion, I fully and entirely con, cur. But I agree with him also when he says—and there he seemed to be replying to his own argument— that the present is not the time to deal with those par ticular questions, because, at present, when feelings of hostility exist against our Government on the part of the native population, to raise such questions would only exasperate the enneitp already existing, and, therefore, that that was not a part of the Indian subject with which it was possible to deal at the present moment. Again, he told us of the relations between the military services of India and England. He sail that the relation between the English and the Indian armies was not noticed in any of the resolutions before the coun try. Undoubtedly it was not so noticed, and that for precisely the reason which be alleges. There is an inquiry at present going on, or about to commence, on the subject of the reorganization of the native army in India. A larger and more general inquiry on the relations between the army employed in India and the Executive here will be carried on in this House. A full investigation will be entered on in reference to that sub ject, and when that investigation is completed we shall be prepared to give the result to the public. Bat the right hon. gentleman throughout his argument proceed ed on an assumption in which I should regret if the House were to share. He assumed, if we were to go over the questions connected with the Indian adminis tration and attempt to settle any such questions per manently now, that so soon as the Bill which we shall shortly bring in was passed the House would refuse to reopen any part of the Indian subject, ands door would be closed against all future reform. I should deeply regret if such were likely to be the case ; but I am sure that if at one and the same time, and in one and the same measure, any Government were to attempt to deal with all those questions touching the political staks of the native population, the relations between the native and European armies, and those between the Governor-General and the Executive here, the result would be that no measure would be passed, and pro bably the whole session would be consumed by fruitless discussion, while the recollections which it would leave behind would probably operate powerfully to prevent any future Minister or any Parliament undertaking to deal with the subject in a comprehensive manner. (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman has stated the ob jections which he entertains to the course proposed by the Government, and I must state in a few words what are the objections which I entertain to the course pur sued by him. The right hon. gentleman wishes to con stitute the present Court of Directors a Ceuncil for ad ministering the Government of India in the name of the Queen, under the superintendence of a responsible Minister of the Crown, until the end of the next session of Parliament. In the first place and principally I object to any such mode of proceeduro because it seems to me that you would place those who were to compose -uch a council in3a singularly false and inconvenient position. (Hear.) You would tell them that they were doomed, and their term of power would aeon expire, that no efforts they could make, no energy they could show, and no public spirit they could display would avail to prolong that term of power. (Hear) Would not the inevitatle effect of placinn such men, however able and laborious, in a position like that, be to a great extent to diminish the zeal and energy with which the public business would he carried on t (Cheers.) But it is not merely as re gards the directors themselves that I think the proposal objectionable. You must also look to the effect it would pro ince on the public mind. (Hear.) When you say a certain body whom you would intrust with consider. able power is to lose that power at the end of a not very lengthened term,—when you say openly or by implice t ion, that the enly reason they are allewec to continua in the possession of power for that short term is the diffi culty of finding a substitute, the effect must ne to impair the cnnidence which the public will feei in them, and to discredit them before thereyes both of England and of India. (Cheers.) We have ourselves experienced the inconvedience which is apt to arise when there eccurs in our Parliamentary Government a period during which Ministers only hold office until their successors are ap• pointed ; and we have found that during two or three weeks or even a month all public business comes to a standstill, and great inconvenience has accrued to the publice service; and I must say that, in my opinion, we should be creating a similar inconvenience, but upon an infinit•-ly larger scale and at a most dangerous tfme, ,f we, by telling the Court of Directors that they might hold their tenure of power until the end of next session, were to make them a discredited body, while at the same time we announced to Were that the only reason which induced us to continue power in their hands was our unwillingness at the present time to lay down any scheme for the permanent Government of India. (Hear.) If we were to adopt that course at this critical period in our Indian affairs we should certainly discredit tie East India Company, for, while leaving in their hands a great administrative authority, we should nevertheless tell them that we intended, and that at no v. ry distant period, to deprive them of that authority, and that because we disapproved of the system upon which they wielded it. The intention of the right hon. gentleman undoubtedly is to do away with that which is thought by some to cause a great part of the inconve nience which has been complained of—l mean the ex'st erice of a double government and the existing system of separate offices. Now, I do not think that the plan sug gested in the resolutions of the right hon. gentleman even effects the object which he wishes to effect. All that the proposal of the right hon. gentleman amounts to is, not that the Board of Control should be abolished —not that the President of the Board of Control for the time being should assume the fanctis,ns of President of the Council in Leadenhall-street ; but he proposes to re tain the two offices and the present system of communi cation between them, but to give the President of the Board of Control, whenever he might be so inclined, an optional power of going to Leadenball-street, and being when there, the Chairman of the Court of Directors. Now, looking at that substantive proposition, I cannot conceive that it could effect any economy of time or sav ing of labour, or that it would be productive of any good to the public service. At present the chairman of the Court of Directors is invested with great powers, and consequently with great responsibility, and certainly his authority would be impaired if he were only to be chair man when the President of the Board of Control did net happen to come down and assume his !unctione. I do not think that such a plan would conduce to the goad working of the department, but that is a question of de tail, and I do not wish to rest upon it ; but my objec tion to the proposal before the house plainly and briefly is that it does not attempt any permanent settlement of the question. When I talk of a permanent settlement, I don't mean to say that, when we have arranged the epestpee between Leadenhall-street and Cannon-row, we shall have made any very great progress in reforming local administration in India —a subject, doubtless, which requires great care and attention ; but, so far as regards that part of legislation for India with which we at present propose to deal, I confidently hope that even at this period, and notwithstanding the delays which have taken place, we shall be able during the present eseion to come to a permanent settlement of the ques- Ition. (Cheers.) Sir C. LEWIS' concurred with the noble lord the President of the Board of Trade in the opinion that this amendment was a repetition of the one brought forward by the honourable member br the county of Durham. The motion was a dilatory one, and could lead to no advancement in the question before the committee. But if these resolutions were agreed to, they would lead prac tically to very serious results. If the board of directors ,sere to act as a council, they must cease to act as direc t.ors, and must give up their independence of character. If They were to place', as was proposed, the board of eirect ire in joxtapo6itien with the President of the Board of Centrel, this wenld solve the whole question v!.iela the house was caked upon to decide as to the Ir n and constitution of the proposed council. The second resolution was not consistent with the first, and could not be adopted if the first were agreed to. He hoped, therefore, that the co-naulittee would not hesitate to proceed with the resolutions before the house, which were, at all events, practical and consistent. (Hear, hear.) He said that that house was perfectly competent to deal with the whole subject of Indian legislation, and if they were to wait until next year or the following year e n o , n f in e : g r e e d li g tw himselfo s u o l d f a r b f e ro t m h r t o h w i n n k i o n n g t t h b a e t t s h u e b r j e e ct was . an y e i w n o t n il d e e al r a w tt a e s r, t h hae t h i l iffi is C o u n lt l y y , t h t h o e ug c h o t o s i t ti w th e t s io p n e rf o e f c t l h y e c v l e a a s r t . India Company had remained so long, and lie trusted that a thorough re f orm was now about sweep it away. Mr. LIDDELL did not think it was fair to the amend ment to describe it as a mere mwethhyodwoafsi it iostpon h ing the übject of Indian legislation. the amendment to brin g th e council' was Indiannonedearagaeren .ponsible Minister ? The am en d ment involved very c mei • derab l e c h ange, b u t it waasnd a ch i a t n w g a e s w o h n ic l h y was now founded th a that th o e y cc en sa f e ty . A great change h a d lately come over the op the danger i n w hi ch they ere beginning o f that thouse, see might be involved in entering upon Indian legislation. Was teens ever a moment when the machine of Governmeet was charged with a weight of duty so overrun as at the present moment, and would it not be dangerous to at .p o even f.r a inoinent ? In every scheme that had been er,po,3eil the erineiple of a council was embraced. T,.,t ce log to e cane, tell it more reasonable than the amend which ten old continue ei nt of the tieht lion. gr.:11'1_111).ln, a council which hal proved itself experienced and faith fol, The noble lord the member for Tiverton had said ;hat there was a greet deal in a name, and therefore he ei op imed to ietreduee the ietme of the Q 1 en. But how see the name of the Qu .en been introduced ? WO, ',y- the Oude proclamation. Would the , forcibly inhere ontidenee in the people Of ledie ? The name of the ii:est India Board was well known in India, and there fere be should unhesita'iugly give his support to the amendment. Mr. DRUMMQND said his objection to the two bills which had been before the house was, that they di not touch the government of India. There had been some bocce pocus about the home government, bat what he considered as the government of India was that which was best for the people of India. He did not hulk the country was we ll i ns t ruc t e d upon w h at h a d Wean go ing on in the Indian legislature. There was pro toned ignorance, too, as to the conduct of the English to the natives of India. He read the opinions of Sir F. Shore, who stated that the natives were treated by the English with the utmost superciliousness. Few English men returned the salute of a native, and they never spoke to them with civiiity. All servants, natives, were treated with the greatest harshness by the English. The origin of this was, that it was supposed to be the best means of keeping up the dignity of the English. The treatment by the English was tyran nical and brutal. All these statements were corrobo rated by Lord William Bentinck. Was it to be supposed that these things did not rankle in the minds of the natives ? The Italian maxim applied as much to India as anywhere else—" Vengeance sleeps, but never dies." There was dissatisfaction enough in India for half a dozen rebellions. Was not torture practised in every British province by the lower subor dinates of the Government ? There could be no doubt of it, notwithstanding the denial of Sir James Hogg, Mr. Mangles, and Mr. Elliot. And what was the law applied to the ratives I Why, it was a foreign lan guage, and was administered by foreign officials, and one of the panaceas for the government of India was to send out more English lawyers. The fact was India was looked upon as a country to be exploited for the civil service. If India was continued to 133 looked upon as merely a country for plunder, we should assuredly lose it ultimately. He thought it would be wise at once to issue a proclamation in the Queen's name, and take potsersion of Oude in her name. That would create the belief in the native mind that the Government would be carried on for the happiness of the people. Mr. CUMMING BRUCE had always been extremely anxious that the Queen's name should be introduced into the Government of India. He thought the first Council for India should be the Council of the East India Company. The noble lord had said that the house would stultify itself by adopting the amendment, but he (Mr. C. Bruce) denied that public expectati , n would be much disappointed by delay. He could not agree with the honourable member for Pontefract that the East India Company had been treated with any dis respect either by the present Government or that r.f the noble lord the member for Tiverton. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken of its labours is terms of the highest commendation, comparing it with the great Venetian Republic, He should c'rdially support the amendment, and if it were rejected should press his own which was kindred in spirit. (Hear, hear.) Mr. LOWE expressed himself at a loss to understand the bearing of the amendment. Its terms were vague, and it was difficult to ascertain the re lations which were to subsist between the Minister and the Court of Directors in the new provi sional Government. The amendment proposed to maintain the powers of the Board of Control, But ho could they be preserved without preserving the correla tive powers of the East India Company. The right hon. gentleman proposed that despatches should first be sub mitted to a committee, and then be referred to the full Court of Directors. This was the course at present ; but if repeated under this proposal how would that intolera- Lie delay now complained of be obviated ? No ground had been laid by the right hon. gentleman for his specific scheme, or why a provisional government should be adopted instead cf a permanent one. Nothing had been advanced why delay was preferable to action. The only reason urged in favour of the change was, that delay would give an oppn" unity for procuring information on the subject of India generally. The proposal of the right hon. gentleman would aggravate instead of removing the difficulties to be encountered ; his proposition was a tem p irary measure, opening up a vast number of embarrass no; questions without rattling any of them. It would be better to face these difficulties manfully, and not sanc tion a provisional ooverntnent, which would have neither he prestige-of the old ono nor anything to recommend it in itself. (Hear.) Mr. A. MILLS thought that in the face of the multi plicity (I amendments on the paper, brief speeches would , be preferable to long ones. (Bear.) Without impugning the grammatical accuracy of the amendments of the right hon. gentleman, he doubted whether any clause could be framed to carry out his intentions. He gathered from the amendments that it was intended that the board of directors and the Board of Control ehoul l be vo far amal gamated as that the evils of the double government stionid he obviated. He could not see, ho sever, how these evils would be removed by enabling the President of the Board of Control occasionally to preside at the ren etings of the C mncil. (Hear, hear.) He deprecated delay in grappling with this question, believing the same difficulties which had now to be met would be rife two years hence. It the measure passed with the amendments now proposed, it would still only be an ini tiatory step towards a scheme for the government of India. He expressed his extreme reluctance in being unable to support the proposition of the right hon. gen tleman, on the ground of the necessity for an immediate and comprehensive legislation. (Hear, hear.) Col. SYKE3 said the proposition of his right hon. friend to call in the present board of directors to the aid of the Minister was a very simple one. The administra• tive capacities cf the present board of directors had been sneered at, but 15 out of the 18 were intimately ac quainted with the affairs of India. This sneer, therefore, might be sent to that limbo to which other paradoxes uttered on this question had been consigned. (A. laugh.) Urging the claims of the present form of government, he maintained that the Court of Proprietors as; a safety. valve for the discontent which might from time to time ari e in India, and which if dealt with in Parliament would be made the pivot for party strife. He combatted the statements of the horn member for Surrey with re spect to the character of the European population in India. If their conduct had been such as had been de scribed, they would have been chased out of India long ago. If the hoc. member for Surrey were to attend one of the Addiscornbe meetings, and the weekly meeting of the committee, he would find that the pupils were en jsined in the strongest terms to aist in a kind spirit to the natives of India when they went out there. Parlia ment was about to change a ferns of government under which 181 millions of the natives of India had been ruled, but these millions had never been consulted in the slightest manner oa the subject of the patronage to be exercise! under the new scheme of government. The hon. and gallant member read the opinions of two or three native Indians on passing events in this country, which bad been recently forwarded to him. A Parsee, a man of wealth and education, whose family had been con. nested with Bombay ever since its transference from the Portuguese, declared to him, in a late communication, that the English Parliament were proceeding in ignorance of the real state of affairs i❑ India, and expressed a hope that the English Government would not, with regard to India, follow the example of their colonial mismanage ment. This Parsee warned the Parliament of the danger of interfering with caste, and recommended the Eoglish Government to reform their own social regulations be f ire meddling with those of India, Were not the people themselves to be consulted, and was it not fair that the wishes of the 120 millions they were to legislate for should be cousn'tsd Was that not necessary to con ciliate them F In India, before an act was passed, a no tice was given in the Government Gazette, and an interval of three months was allowed that the desires of the people flr , uld be ascertained. Why, then, should a question affecting their interests be pa-sed letstily without con sulting them ! If the population of India were consulted, nine-tenths of them would be found to be adverse to the prop)sed measures. He hoped they would consider this point, and not take a course which would exclude further discussion. Let time be given for distrust to subside. Mr. BOVILL reminded the house that a resolution bad been passed that it was e-sentiail that there should be some legislation for India, and members on both sides concurred in that opinion. It was because the resolution of Mr. Gladstone promoted delay that he opposed it, It appeared impossible that any bill should pass both houses after the resolutions had been discussed. The fist suestion for them to decide bad been whether the rule of the East India Cimpany should continue, and it Lad been agreed that they should proceed to legislate. The principle had been affirmed by two Governments end by a majority that there should be a council. The principal difficulty was as to the constitution of that council. He proceeded to analyse the several proposi tions which had been made. There would be an ample opportunity for the opinions of the people of India to be taken. He supportel the original resolution. Mr. D. SE . tSIOUR. could not understand the argu ment that the tendency of the resolution of the right .hon. gentlein in would lead to a calming of the pub lic mind in India. They bad decided on a change, and it would be injurious to adjourn the settlement of the qua ition for 18 months. Who was to aasser despatches! A divided authority would be a cau•e of great inconve nience. The hon. member for Aberdeen had said that the press had unsettled the public mind in India. Did not his !Teach unsettle their minds still more when he said there had bee❑ public meetings and that it was in tended to interfere with their religion I Would he not do more to calorit if be said that in the Legislature there bad been no such speeches They knew that there was no authority above that of this house. Must they not have seen in the debates in this house that we had no disposition to an interference with their religion, and that we were actuated by a Christian spirit I The direc tors of the East India Company had not been actuated by such a spirit. The people of India would not believe that we, who were so devoted to our own religious liberty, would intet fere with theirs. He was sorry that there bad been an estrangement of I•tta between the eepoys and their officers. The house was pledged to legislation, and he wondered that a motion was proposed so opposite to the expressed opinion of the house. We should show the natives th.:t we were determined and resolute, and would not hastily discuss the question for the sake of our recreation a month hence. Ho therefore hoped the house would not consent to the adjournment. The house then divide:), whoa the number 3 were— For the original motion 265 For the amendment Majority —l49 THE INDIAN COUNCIL. Mr. ROEBUCK then addressed the committee in op wirdtion to the ciuncil. /le s tid—W re I to consult ly the probabilities of success in the proposition I lilve to make, I eh. ul I certainly be vaunted, for I am tolerably sure there will be an immense majority against it. But that to mo is no new thing. I have brought forwarl many propsiti )11s, which were at fit-4 ejected, hut which afterwards became the.,cieed of this uouse. (Hear, hear.) Some years ago I contended for a particular c lurse being followed in our colonial policy, and was always outvoted, but a time came when that which hal beea BO often raj acted, almost Nith scorn, became the creed of the Colonial Minister. (Erear, hear.) I am not daunted, therefore, at the pros pect of a large majority against me. (guar.) This hou.e has resolved—first, that the G.,vernment of India shall be transferred from the Court of Directors to the Crown; next it has decided that the power of the-Crown shall be exercised by a Minister of State; and now it is pre pose to give to that Minister of State a council to aid and counsel him. It is against this laet proposition that I now address the house. I must remind the house of a distinction to which allusion has been made to-night, but not sufficiently dwelt upon-1 moan the distinction be tween the Government of India that is in England, and the Government that is in India. With this last point we have now nothing to do—the resolution before us concerns Vie Home Government of India only, and the question we have to answer is, whether there shall be a Secretary of State by himself alone, and responsible for his own acts, or whether ho shall he aided by a council. I adhere to the first. I say that a single Secretary of State, responsible for all his acts, and being himself his own guide and counsellor, ought to be alone the Gover nor of Indii. I hold this view, first, on account of the mental and moral benefit which a scan derives from act• ing alone. lie has a more distinct and pressing interest in what he has to do than a man who shares his respon sibility with others, and therefore mentally and morally he is a stronger man, and better able to carry on the gc verninont with vigour. (Hear) I have heard it said, " Why, under your plan, only fancy India governed by the right hon. gentleman the member for Northampton." (A. laugh.) Well, we have seen India governed by the right hon. gentleman the member for Northampton, and governed without responsibility. But lam told the days of responsibility are over, and that we don't now deprive Ministers of their heads, but of their places. (A. laugh.) I have, however, seen three notable instances of the results of responsibility. I have seen the Government of Lord Aberdeen turned out because the people of England thought their honour was not safe in their hands. I have seen the Government of the noble lord the member for Tiverton turned out of power for the same reason. I have seen the almighty power of this house hurl him from his place " headlong flaming from th' ethereal sky, With hideous' ruin and combustion, down To bottomless perdition." (A laugh.) I have seen, on this very business of India, a President of the Board of Control driven from power simply by the Expression of opinion —not by a resolu tion---iu this house and out of doors, and that within a few weeks past. Shall any man tell me, then, that there is no responsibility ? Aye, but it is said, there was at that time, when he wag so driven from power, a Board of Directors. Does not everybody know that the Board of Directors was at that time destroyed, and that the vary fact of his being responsible wan because he acted by himself alone I And did he not say that he acted by himself, without their consent and without consulta tion with them, and that he was answerable for his con duct / And did not the house and the country accept that statement, and punish him for hie conduct ? I don't say the house or the country was right; but what I say is that, believing he was so responsible, they punished hint for his act. This is the only constitutional responsibility in fact, and the milder manners of modern times, which do not allow us to cut off the heads of Mi nisters—(:s laugh)—by allowing us to displace them make them responsible to us for their acts. But, it may be said, a Council is necessary for the purpose of afford ing advice. Well, then, we have to consider the Coun cil which is to aid this Indian Minister, first, as to the men from whom it is to be derived ; next, as to the manner of its election ; then as to its tenure of office ; and again, as to its power. With respect to the men from whom it is to be derived, I have in this house spoken of the class who are generally called " Old Indians." lam told that a large proportion of the men who are to assist and advise this Minister of the Crown are to be selected from that class of Old Indians. The right honourable gentleman the member for the University f Oxford made upon me a somewhat weak joke. Ho said, "The hon. and learned gentleman takes exception exactly to tho to men who have some means of acquiring knowledge." lam going to speak of old In dians, but not of my own authority, and the right hon. gentleman roust pardon me if I say his authority in mat ters of Government is not possessed of any great weight. (A laugh.) Invariably have I found the right hon, gen tleman opposing almost all the advances made by man kind since I have been in his house. (Oh, oh.) I recol lect that, upon that very question of colonial adminis tration, among my most formidable opponents was the right hon. gentleman. I think he also opposed the free trade measure. Bat it is not for me to say that the right hon. gentleman has not many claims to the admiration of this house. (Cheers.) He has a most captivating eloquence, but he wants judgment to guide he (Laughter.) In fact, his mind is like a tangled web. It ie a thing inarvello.ue to look at, but utt er l y use l ess for any practi ca l p urpose . (A. laugh ) I am going t o p u t against his authority that of a very different man, who deeply dived into all human thoughts, who ransacked human nature, iu order to understand and guide it. I neean Mill, the historian of British India. You are told to consider the advantage you would derive from framing a Council of Old Indians for the guidance of the Indian Minister ; and I would have you recollect the mode in which the Anglo-Indian acquires knowledge. He goes out to India a youth and has very little power of acquir ing a knowledge of mankind. He studies a language or two. He is segregated from his own class, and sent at once to govern, Now, Mil', in the preface to his history, discusses the question of the advantages which the his torian of British India woul I derive from going to In dia, and says that the powers of observation in every in dividual are exceedingly limited, and it is only by com bining the observation of a number of individuals that a competent knowledge of any extensive subject can be acquired. Now, let us recollect that our domi nions in India extend from the Himalayas to Cape Co morin. There are, I believe, in that space 20 different nations, all speaking very different languages, and all having very different customs, as different as Italy is from Denmark ' • and I would suppose a trav e ll er go i ng t o Italy was called on to legislate for Danmark. You know what that would mean. For the same reason a man who had passed his life in the Punjab would be as unable to legislate for Travancore as a man living in Naples would be to legielate for Denmark. My hon. friend the member for Surrey quoted opinioes concerning the moral c indi tion of gentlemen who have gone to India, but I have only to do now with their intellectual character. Lord Teignmouth pints out in emphatic language the diffi culty of acquiring a requisite amount of knowledge to enable us to govern India by reminding his readers of the magnitude of our acquisitions there, the character of the people placed under our dominion, their difference of language, their dissimilarity in other respects, aid that we began our rule in the country in ignorance of its former government. I could also quote to the same end the authority of Lord H. Bentinck, Sir H. Stachey, Sir J. Malcalra, and other distinguished men—in short, that of all the men of mind who have gene to India. I do not mean to say that the mere going to India totally unfits a man for governing India, but I say, that taking the mass of men who have gone there, the mere fact of a man having been in India gives him no greater power of go verning that c ,untry than he could have acquired by study and reflec:ion at home, and, in fact, not so much so far as regards knowledge of the feeings and habits of the people. Now, Sir, I come to the question, by whom is the proposed Council to be selected ? It is said partly by the Crown and partly by election. Now, if I know any thing of this house—and I have had a long experience in it—l am confident that the doctrine of ulectiou in this matter will not be received—in short, that it will be scoute l ; and the real feet will be that the appointment to this Council will be in the hands of the Ministers of the Crown, for when we say that it will be in the hands of the Crown, we mean that it will be in the hands of the responsible advisers of the Crown. "Oh," but says the right hon. gentleman " that will be an enormous power to confer upon a Minister," Now, what power is it proposed to confer on the Minister'? Why it is pro posed to confer on the Government of the day the power of electing persons who will be screens to those who elect them, and for that reason I object to any ono hav ing such power of election ; but at the same time, if it is determined to confer upon any one that power of elec tion, I think that the person who is responsible to this lactase is as likely to be a good elector as any holder of so much India stock. (Bean) The right hon. gentleman member f r the University of Oxford has proposed to form the Council from the existing Board of Directors. Now, the existing Board of Directors has been elected by the holders of India stock, and I would ask the house do you consider that gentlemen so elected would be more responsible or would be better chosen than persons chosen literally by this house i I say literally chosen by this house, because it is by this house that the Mini ster is chosen by whom the Council is to be chosen, and therefore it is by this house, in the last resort, that the Council would be chosen ; and I ask you if you consider that holders of India stock form a better elective body than this house? (Hear.) Oh, but it is said you are putting lilt ) the hands of the Government of the day a vast engine of corruption. Now, as regards the gees tion of the virtue of this house, in the first place I do not think that the mere appintinent of 10 or 12 persona to hold office for six or simen.yeara svanniafford a means of corruption that this house could not withstand. Then we are told that the appointments to all positions in the army and civil service would be in the hands of the Minister, and that that would exercise a corrupt influ ence over this house, for that we could not resist the blandishments of a Meister armed with such a power. Now, if there is the least honest sincerity in this objec tion, the house will sae at once how easily it is got rid of by the mode which I should suggest. I would suggest that all fir s t appo i ntments in India shoul d b e b es towed upen th e pr i nciple of fair and open compe titi on . (Hear, he ar .) Do not let me be misunderstood. I would have a c l ear, open, honest competition. Say there a re 20 places to be given a nay. W e ll,- I would a ll ow every man capable of making an ap plication i n writing to undergo the trial and be exit mined. Let th e r e be n o pretence, as there is now, of compelli eg persons to beg to be placed on the list for examination, but let it be competent for every man who is willing to do so to put his name clown and be Ell wined, even If teens should be LOCO competitors for the 20 vacant offices. That, to my mind, is the only fair mode of empl ying the principle of competition, and that would, I thi n k, t a k e a ll power of corruption out of the ha n d s c f the Ministers. I no .w exile to the ques ion of the tare f newhich the Council is to be appointed. Sorne say that the appointment should be f r life, others t n years, : aid ()lists f six years. Now, the fast of electin g nienviers i f the Council for six years would deprive them of all responsibility, while at the same time the Minister f , r In lin would be an irresponsible Minis ,er. pond upon it that if you adopt that principle you will abolish all reAp.msibility in the government of " I , ja ; i f y et ' give the Minister of the Crown the aid :and assist mace, of a C rancil you will take responsibility from him and destroy his p n ver of governing India. I have now pas se d over the questions as regards the per sons to be el lc t e d, a e d th e perso ns by whom they are to be elected, end I come now to the question as regards the powers which it is intended to give to the Council. ft is said by seine that the connection between the Minister and the Council ought to be something like the connection bet ween the Governor-General and his Coun cil, that he should take the advice of the Council, and act upon it. Now, that would be to deprive th e Minis ter of all reqpong ibility, and I don t think that a m a j or i ty of this house would wish to see the establishment of a , Council to control the Minister. The effect of such a Council would be to shroud the Minister when in the wrong, and to hamper him when in the right—(bear)— for if wrong his responsibility would be taken away, and when right he would be afraid to act in cases where it might be said that he was acting contrary to the opinions of 10 or 12 persons associated with him. I know that such would be the case from what has occurred since I have been a member of this house. We have been told that the President of the Board of Con trol is really the Governor of India, and that is the fact, and that he may do as he pleases. Now, I upon one occasion moved a vote of censure upon the President of the Board of Control, and what course was adopted by the East India Directors who were members of this house ? Time out of mind I had heard them say that they had nothing whatever to do with the war in Aff ghanistan, and yet when I moved a vote of censure upon the President of the Beard of Control iu connection with that war, all the directors who were members of this house voted against me. Now, that is a very striking fact, and I may say that they have upon all occasions shielded themselves under the system of non-responsibi lity. I remember an attach which I made upon Sir J. Hobhouse and the noble lord the member for Tivertos, and upon that occasion two or three of the members of the Court of Directors spoke and voted against me. Still, then I ask, what could be the responsibility felt or acted upon by the Council! To connect the Minister to whom the government of India may be intrusted with such a Council would be like putting wine into water, an operation by which both the wine and the water are spoilt. (Hear, and a laugh.) Having stated ray objec tions, and the ground for them, I do not wish to detain the house, but there is one point to which I wish to re fer. I know that I shalt have very high authorities against me, and. among others, that of the noble lord near me (Lord J. Russell) ; but the noble lord, like the right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford, is no great authority, to my mind, in matters of legislation. (Clear.) From the very outset of my po litical life I have found the noble lord in opposition. He always puts me in mind of what we lawyers term "a case lawyer." He knows very well whit has been done, but he never knows what ought to be done. (A laugh.) He is a capital pilot in the shoals and cross-currents of party life, but put him out into the open sea and he has neither compass nor chart. (Renewed laughter.) There fore, sir, having found the noble lord so often in opposi tion, it is with some satisfaction that on this occasion I see him in opposition to myself. In fact, if upon the first blush of this proposal he bad thought I was right, I should have been disposed to think I was wrong. This is a frank avowal. (Laughter and cheers.) I hope the noble lord will not take it amiss that I have make this statement,, lam quite sure that his good nature and good feeling will go with me. (A laugh.) I move, sir, that the word " Council" be omitted. Lord STANLEY.—Although the question of Coun cil or no Council is one of the most important which can be raised in the course of these discussions, it is one with regard to which the argument lies in a very narrow com pass. (Hear, hear.) There are only two grounds upon which objections can be taken to the appointment of a Council. One of them was not noticed by the hon. and learned member, and I think the committee will not attach much importance to it, I mean that of expense. I do not apprehend that where the question of the efficiency of the home government of India is concerned the committee will be inclined to attach much import ance to the expenditure of 10,0001. or 15,000/. more or lees. The whole queetion, therefore, turns upon the point—whether the appointment of a Council will, as the hon, and learned member contends, diminish the re sponsibility of the Minister. (Hear, hear.) Is the re sponsibility of the Minister necessarily incomplete if there is a Council to assist him ? That, I apprehend, depend upon the relations to be established between the Minister and the Council. In the main those relations are very simple. The Council is bound to give advice, and the Minister is bound to hear, but he is not bound to take it. It is for him to decide whether he will take or reject it, and whether he takes it or rej sets it he will equally act upon Ins own responsibnity. But then it is said that if this Council is compoeed of persons eminent for their knowledge of Indian affairs he will shelter him sal under the authority of their opinions. My answer to that is, that the Minister will not have it in his power to shelter himself more under the opinions advanced by eminent persons being members of his Council than he would if they did not stand in that relation to him. (Hear, hear.) No doubt any Minister whose measures were attacked would be very glad to bring forward in his defence the opinions and authority of men eminent as Indian statesmen. That is a degree of shelter which he would obtain from the autho rity of such persons, whether they are his colleagues in administration or not, but any other protection it is ex pressly provided that he shall not receive. What then is this council intended to do ? To supply that special departmental knowledge which it is utterly impossible that any public man trained in the ordinary school of English administration can possess upon purely Indian questions. (Hear) And now let me ask the committee what will be the result of negativing the appointment of the Col cil 1 Doea any member of this house really imagine that, upon any one of those multiarioue ques tions which come before the Deeetors of the East India Company and the Board of Control, the Minister will depend upon his own exclusive and unassisted judgment formed simply upon reading the papers, and a knowledge of the facts I Why, everyone knows that he can't. He must rely to some extent—that, I admit, is inevitable— upon the advice which he receives from his Council. If he does not, he will have to depend upon that of other persons who will be councillors in fact, though not in name—upon the advice of the permanent officials of his department. (hear, hear.) The hon. member says that the members of this Council will, in reality, be irre sponsible Ministers for India. I answer, that their position in that respect will be in no respect different from that of those other irresponsible advisers whom every head of a department habitually and necessarily consults upon matters of departmental knowledge of which he has no previous official experience. The only difference is that by placing these gentlemen in a more eminent position, by bringing them more before the public, you will obtain for that branch of the service men of high reputation, who have filled offices of greater distinction than you could place in a position of direct subordination to the Minister. I have not heard it from the hon. and learned gentleman, but elsewhere I have frequently heard a parallel drawn bet wren the Indian administration and that of the Colonial department ; and I will for one moment ask the house to inquire how far these two administrations resemble each other. Under the Colonial department there are altogether about 7,000,000 of persons, of whom you may say that, speaking roughly, 3.500,000, the popula tion of British North America and Australia, manage their own affairs with very little reference to the depart ment at home. Under the Indian department you have, I will not venture to say what number of persons, be cause I never heard two statements on the subject, either in this house or out of it, which agreed, but putting it eta very moderate estimate, if I were to say 140,000,000 that would be 20 times the number who are under the Colonial Department, and that under a Government which is of a very absolute kind. (Flear.) Then the hon. and learned gentleman raises agreat objection to those whom he cells 'Old Indians," and assumes that they must ex clusively compose this Council. -He said that there might be eminent men among their number, but that the mass of them knew very littl) more of Indian affairs than if they had never been in the country. I will not stop to inquire how much of that proposition is true and how much it is exaggerated, and for this reason, that those whom we hope to include in the proposed Council will be not the mass of those who have served in India, but those whom the hon. and learned gentleman himself admits constitute the eminent exceptions, We have heard the worst and the blackest side of the Anglo-Indian character stated to-night, and I dare say there may be, as applied to a small fraction of those who serve in India, some truth in the description ; but we must not forget that the ser vice which he has so criticised has in former times pro duced men like Malcolm, Munroe, and Elphinstone. It can hardly be said that men like Sir John Lawrence, Sir H. Lawrence, if he had live-I, and Sir James Outram, whose names are at this moment before the people of England, are incapable of offering advice to an Indian Administration. (Hear.) The special gain of surround ing the Minister for Indian affairs with men of this class will be that you will obtain, what you can get in no other way, that kind of knowledge which comes from personal c intact with the natives of India, and personal experience of what are their habits and feelings. There is, I hope, no fear that any one undertaking the business of this de partment will come to it with any other than good in tentions, or any than a sincere desire to promote the welfare of the natives of India ; but, unluckily, when you are dealing with alien races, differing very much among themselves, more mischief may be done with the roost sincerely benevolent intentions, and by carrying out plans which are abstractedly good, than perhaps in any other way, or by any other error into which an Indian statesman is likely to fall. (Hear, hear ) Again, the hon. and learned member said that each member of the Council will only represent some one particular part of India, and therefore his special knowledge will be quite useless as applied to questions affecting any other part of the country. This is to some extent true, and it is a very fine, and to my mind a conclusive argument against unduly limiting the number of the proposed Council. (hear, hear.) You do require to have, if p itsible, each Presidency and each department of the public service in India represented in any Council which you are to conetitute ; but on that point I would just observe that it may very often happen that some persons well be competent as regards more than one pant of India, and in more than one department ; be ceuie if you look into the career of most of the eminent men who have served in Indio, you will find that they have not serve,f all tie tens in one branch of the ser vice, or in one part of the c'eur.try, but have been transferred from one poet f difficulty to another, some times in ono part cf India and sometimes in another, according as the pressure and emergency of the public service was greatest. Now, as to patronage, I shou.id not propose to constitute a Council simply fir the pur pise of absorbing a certain amount of patronage which could not ho oilier wise diliosoti ef, but there being other reason s for its creation, I think it is werth to CDii si,ler how materially its existence will assist you in the settlement of that difficult part of ,s queetien. I knew of only two modes of dsalieg with portion of the Indian patronage which has to be exercised in England, and which is mainly military. Either you must vest itallin the Minister—a °ours ) which en his account is very much to be deprecated, and to which this house would not readily assent—or you roust opal it altogether to au in tellectual and literary composition,—a mode of pro cedure exc e ll en t, I thi n k , as rega rds the civil servile, 'and one which I cordially supeorted when its introduc tion was proposed by the right hon. gentleman opposite in 1853, and when on many siies it was strenuously op. posed,—a mode of prcceedure applicable also, I doubt not, to the scientific branches of any service, whether civil or military, but one upon which, I think, you cannot AO implicitly and universally rely when it is a question of giving away those simple military appoint • merit, for which really one must acknowledge that high intellectual qualifications are not those particularly re quired. I am far from raying that open competition should not be introduced in the Indian service. I only request the committee to consider how little experience we have of that principle, how much it is" still an ex periment—that it is an experiment of which in a few years mere we shall be able to see the results as exhi bited in the working of our civil service ; and then I ask them whether it is not premature, whether it would not be trusting too much to theory, to say at once and in one sweeping measure, that the sole mode of entering upon the non-scientific branches in India should be after undergoing an intellectual and scit ntifie. examination. I believe it to be a good and sound principle, but, like all good and eound principles, it may be pushed too far. (Hear.) I think, thee, if there are objections to at once throwing op-u the whole patronage, if not the only mode, still the most convenient way to deal with the difficulty is to increase the responsibility of those who administer it. They will be men—if the Council be con stituted as we hops it will be—who will ho perfectly in dependent of the Minister of the day or of any Minister, —men with no desire for j , bbery—men whose habits arid inclinations will lead them to consider alone the public advantage. Ido not see any more satisfactory mode of disposing cf the patronage. These are the grounds upon which I oppose the hon. and learned gentleman's proposition. Whether you style them councillors or clerks, there will always be persons permanently employed in that department, whose ad eta, every Minister will at least feel bound se fously to consider. In that way we got rid of the patronage difficulty; and I feel that if you constitute a council, as you may, with a due admixture, tempering the Indian with the neutral element, you will accomplish the end we all have in view. (Cheers.) Mr. C. BRITCS wished to make one remark with re gard to an observation of the hon. and learned member for Sheffield. The hon. member referred to the Affghan war in support of his views, but the facts were a complete refutation of his argument. Just before the Affghan war broke out Lord Heytesbury was appointed to the govern ment of India by the late Sir R. Peel. The Government which succeeded Sir R. Peel thought fit to cancel that ap pointment and to appoint an estimable and well-inten tioned noblemad in his place. That appointment was made solely on party grounds, and from the want of administra tive abilities on the part of the well-intentioned nobleman so appointed sprung the Affghan war. The amendment was put and negatived without a division. THE COURT OF DIRECTORS AS THE COUNCIL. Mr. LINDSAY then moved to leave out the words after " appointment," and to insert " and that the Court of Directors be the first council for India." He was of opi nion that the executive of India should be in the hands of the Secretary of State ; but the East India Company had proved such able administrators, and their land and sea transport service was so well managed, that he thought they should remain the first council for India. If his pro position were adopted it would get rid of clause 6,7, and 8. Lord STANLEY said he did not dissent from the com pliment which the hon. gentleman paid to the present Court of Directors, for whatever faults might be found with the system on which the Indian Government had been carried on, he never said a word which was not friendly to those who administered that system. (Hear, hear.) But ho thought the motion of the hon, member was prema ture, for the committee had not yet settled for how long a period the office was to be held. Some were to be held for life and others of a longer or shorter period, and it would not be right for the Government or for the house to say, we offer you these offices, but we cannot t e ll y ou whether or not you are to hold them for life, or for a term of years. In 18d3 the vested.right of the Court of Direc tors would cease altogether, and though he would not bind himself by any pledge, if the nomination was l e ft i n th e hands of the C rown the Government would not be pre cluded from accepting the very valuable assistance of some of those who now carried on the government of the East India Company. (Hear.) "Lord J. RUSSELL said he wished to say a few words on the general course of proceeding rather than the motion be fore the house. He should suggest that at this period of the year, it would be advisable, after agreeing to the prin cipal resolutions, to proceed to a bill. (Hear, hear.) With that view he wished to state that he should propose not only the awe ndinont of.whishhe had giv en no ti ce, th a t th e council should not cons i s t of more than twelve, but he would also propose that the whole be appointed by the Crown. The resolutions of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer did not fix the time for which the members of the council should be appointed ; but if the noble lord wished he could raise that question on his motion. Then there was the question of patronage, which was an important one. If they had these few points settled, he thought it would be desirable to proceed by bill, without waiting to go through the whole of the resolutions. He agreed with the noble lord that the Crown should be at liberty to avail itself of the ability of any members of the present Court of Directors. He should state what lie thought ought to be the whole constitution of the council. (Hear.) Lord DUNKELLIN bore testimony from personal ex perience,lto the efficiency of the land transport service in India. (Hear.) Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said the real question was, what power the council was to have ? Lord STANLEY said the proposition forshortening the resolutions was ono which it was the intention of his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to have pro posed. Perhaps it would be convenient if he wera to state that the government were agreed that the council should consist of not less than 12, but that did not include the Secretary of State. (Cries of "Not more than 12.") Mr. C. BRUCE said lee had a proposition that the coun cil should not consist of less than 24. The motion of Mr. Lindsay was then negatived without a division. Lord STANLEY said he was willing it should stand that the council ehonle consist of 12. Mr. ROEBUCK sane that " not less than 12" might me an that the council was to consist of 100. Col. SYKES moved that the chairman report progress. (Hear, hear, and oh.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that as the committee seemed disposed to adopt the resolution, he hoped the hon. gentleman would not press his motion. THE NUMBER OF COUNCIL. Lord PALMERSTON said that many hon. members might think that 12 was too large a number. ... 4- leircl STANLEY, in reply, said that many also thought that 12 was too small a number. Col. SYKES said he should divide the committee if he had not an opportunity of proposing that the number should be 18. The motion for reporting progress was then put and negatived. Mr. T. BARING said the change which the government seemed disposed to adopt was a most serious one. The re solution proposed that the council should consist of not more than 18 nor less than 12 members, the number to be decided according to the duties of the council, but no inti mation had been given what those duties were to be—whe ther the members were to be clerks or advisers. The go vernment without any notice or intimation of a change in their opinion, wished to carry into effect a complete change in the system. That the government should, after having deliberately made aproposition, make so sudden a change, was an inconsistency for which he could not account. (Cheers.) It would be better to defer the limitation until the duties of the council were defined. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought his hone friend had misunderstood the character of the resolu tion. The object of the resolution was not to obtain a de finite decision but to elicit the opinion of the house upon the point. The government thought there ought to be a council and not an inconsiderable council, and asked the house to say whether it should not be less than 12 nor more than 18. It was necessary to arrive at some result in order to place a bill on the table which would contain a definite conclusion. It appeared to be the opinion of the committee that it would, be desirable to fix the number of the council at 12. (" Hoar, hear," and " No, no.") It would advance the progress of the measure to come to a decided resolution on the subject, Mr. V. SMITH was of opinion that the number ought to be defined in the bill, and that the committee ought to confine itself to saying that the number should not be more than 12. (Laughter.) Mr. C. BRUCE could not agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the opinion of the committee was in favour of fixing the number at 12. He thought 13 was the least number that ought to be adopted. If the proposition before the committee should be adopted it would preclude him from proposing that the number be 18. Lord PALMERSTON said the question before the com mittee involved a most important principle. It was neither more nor less than this—whether, when the change took place, the government of India should take place in London or in India. If the details of the government of India were to be transacted in London, the council ought to be a large one ; but if the interference of the govern• anent in Loudon was to be restricted to narrow limits, a much smaller number would be more convenient. It was natural that a trading company should exercise a close supervision over all its transactions in India. But that was not the manner in which parliament considered the dependencies of the crown ought to be governed, and if parliament thought the duties of the council should be confined to general matters and not to petails, a large council would be trOublesome; and a small one much more convenient. Instead of attempting to fix the number he thought it would be better to leave the number to be fixed by the bill after the functions of the council had been fully considered. (Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL agreed in the general principle laid down by his noble friend (Lord Palmerston). Heretofore a great quantity of details had been gonethroughinthis country. The change now proposed could not take effect for some time to come, and if there should be a small council at first, there might be such a mass of paper that it would be almost impossible to deal with them. H e thought the proposal of the noble lord (Stanley), that the council should consist of 12, a vary good one, and that the crown ought to have the power of diminishing the number to ten or eight. (Hear.) Mr. C. BRUCE said the council would be a kind of court of appeal in Indian affairs, and that the business could not be carried on with a less number than 18. Mr. T. BARING appealed to the justice of the Govern . no,nt to consider this question, which was a most serious one. Theyhal agreed to reduce the numb er o f t h e council tc.l2 without any notice or explanation whatever. On the decision of the committee on this point depended the ques tion whether the power of the government in India should be increased and the directi , n and supervision of the Go vernment at home should be diminished. There had been no discussion as to the exact number ; it was to have been supposed -e that the Government, having rnaturod the reso lution, prepared to abide by it, and if th ey were g o forreerleuce the Pinnb er , h e t rusted they would allow time discussion. (11 e , r.) it i i n o g n, to were M-. P. O'BRIEN considered the Government wore in an unhappy position between the hon, member for Hunting don, an ell member of their party, on ono side—(question) --and the noble lord the member fur the city of London, %eh., hid got them out of the scrape before, on the other. (Loud cries of " Question ") He was speaking as to the constitution of the council, a most important subject, and bill. gentlemen hal no right to call " Question." " Cries of " Qeestion" and "Divid e .”) Sir G. GREY thought the committee ought not to be called on to fix the number until they knew the duties of the council, and how it was to be composed. Ho would suggest to the right hon. gentleman to omit all reference to the number, and leave it to be decided in committee on the bill. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no doubt he would facilitate tho passinc , of tho resolution by adopting the suggestion of.the righChon. baronet; an d if ho w ere t o treat all the other resolutions the same way he might pass them that evening ; but the result would be, they would have to renew all the discussion during the progress of the bill. The resolution had been prepared with a view to ascertain the feeling of the house. He be lieved that was clearly expressed in favour of 12 ; and he was bound to say that after full investigation the govern ment were clearly of opinion that that number would be sufficient. He would ask the committee what chance there was of carrying out their views unless they endeavoured en every oecasiox to come to some definite conclusion? After the appeal of the hon. member for Huntingdon, he would not press the committee to decide at once as to the number, but he trusted hon. gentlemen would not force them to report progress unless they bona fide intended to raise the question on the next night. He trusted that the next evening the committee would settle the question as to election or nomination, in which case they would soon be able to introduce the bill. Sir C. WOOD could not understand how the right hon. gentleman had arrived 'at the conclusion that the opinion of tho house was in favour of the number 12 ; he had been in the house since half-past four, and had not heard any thing to justify such conclusion. The house was not in s position to fix any precise number ; they ought to leave it out altogether, or leave it between certain limits. Colonel SlrEn El and Lord J. RUSSELL rode together. There were loud cries for the latter, but Colonel Svzsit persisted, amidst cries of " divide," and " question." Se protested against the conduct of the government in at tempting to fix the number after many members interested in the subject had left the house : from eighteen years' experience he could say 15 was few enough. Lord J. RUSSELL said that if the discussion was to be renewed he should certainly persist in his amendment. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, as the hour was so far advanced be would move to report pro' gross. (Hear, hear.) [The moment the right hon. gentleman made this state ment there was a general rush of members from the house.] The CHAIRMAN - , however, put the question, th a t the word " more " be ins er t e d i n th e reso l u ti on in place of the word " less," and decided that the " noes" had it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the chairman report progress. Lord A. V. TEMPEST asked what the amendment visa that had been put, which few hon. members understood. Lord PALMERSTON suggested that if the Government intended to make any changes in the resolutions the,' should state them beforehand. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that any change in the resolutions proposed by the Government would be stated beforehand. As to the doctrine of the noble lord. that no changes were to be made in resolutions without notice, he would find it very difficult to cart/ that out. Lord PALMERSTON only wished to consult the conve nience of the house, and had laid down no such doctrine. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the house resumed. The house will again go into committee on Friday night• The Hainault Forest Bill was read a third time and passed. FRIENDLY SOCIETIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. On the motion of Mr. S. ESTCOURT, this bill, which was intended to remedy a defect in the working of the preseas act, was read a second time. The Titles of Laud (Scotland) Bill was read a second, ti me. The order of the day for the Clerks of Petty Session! (Ireland) Bill was discharged. The Markets and Fairs (Ireland) Bill passed through committee pro jorma. NISI PItIUS COURT (IRELAND) 131 f LL. On the motion for the second reading of this bill, Mr. CRAUFURD made some objections to its details; and urged it should not be proceeded with at that hour. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said thn no Government would press the second reading of a 10 , 1 at one o'clock i n th e morn i ng, if it was objected to, and the hon. gen tl eman h a d stated his objection to goi ng on, it would have been postponed at once, and he might have been spared his observations. The bill was then postponed till Monday. THE VACCINATION (IRELAND) BILL. This bill was read a second time. NIARRI ,GE LAW AMENDMENT BILL. The second reading of this bill was postponed until Monday next. COPYHOLDS. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL laid on the table a bill for amending the law as to copyholds. The bill was read a first time. JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. HENLEY brought in a bill to amend the Joint' stock Companies Acts 1850 and 1857, and the Joint-stock Companies Act 1857. The bill was read a first time. The other orders of the day were disposed of, and ale house adjourned at a quarter past one. Country Markets. CHELMSFORD-Jurz 4. -- The weather being so extremely favourable to the noi r crop, the better samples of wheat to-day met a reductio n of is per qr., whilst second rate qu a liti es , w h ere sa l es W pressed, suffered an abatement of fully 2s per qr. Sprlag corn dull, at last week's rates. Trade extremely flat 01 all descriptions of grain. Wheat, white old, per s. s. ‘', qr.4o 48 1 Oats, per q r . 24 3' new.... 40 48 Peas, Partridge 413 41 red, old 37 44 White 40 .49 new.... 36 44 B o ili ng 4l. . 41 Barley 34 40 Dun 43 46 Chevalier 38 44 Beans Tisk 37 39 Grinding ..........28 32 I Harrow ticks 37 4 3 1 Malt 70 73 / 1 Mazagan 3 4 g Chevalier 72 73 1 Ditto, new... 34 NOUWICH-JUNE 5. The corn trade of this district has been quiet during the past week. There was more firmness apparent to-day, sales made being effected on rather easier terms flan Ga this day ee'nnight. Little doing in barley, oats, WOO' awl peas. Flour, 28s to 28s 6d per sack from the miller. White wheat, 46s to 48s ; red, lOs to 455.; barley, 32s 3 411 The attendance was thin. COLCHESTER-Jun 5. A fair supply of wheat, but the trade was dulkat about is under l a st S a t ur d ay ' s ra t es. V ery little s pring writ on offer, and no material alteration in value. Prices to-daywere as follow :—Wheat, white, 46s to 5 04 red, 42s to 465; barley, — s t o — s ; oats, 26s to 30a ; bean , . Mazagan, 38s to 40e; middle and small, 42s to 449; 1 ,056 white, 42s to 44s ; grey, 448 to 468. Official Statement of the Quantities of Corn, Acc., rect il ;f i in the port of Lond on , f rom th e f o ll ow i ng ports, , May 31 to June 5, both inclusive. -r; g A Colchester llB t2oo ` —10 068 S Harwich lB5 220 Leigh Nialdon 11226 108 KIRKCALDY-JuNg 5. Wheat. I Barley. I —oats. J I"auPd First I Second Third • 3ss Od —s Od 23s Od f Oa COAL MARK Prices of Coals per ton al %7. --JUNE 7. the close e the market Wallsend, kie. s. d. Bell's Primrose l2 0 Howard's West Hartley Netherton 15 0 Hastings Hartley 15 0 Morpeth West Hartley 14 . 9 Tauliold Moor l2 3 Longridge's Wst Hartley 15 0 Wylain l4 3 ii. B 0 Acorn Close l6 9 Manson 14 0 Eden - ,15 9 tiraddyll .... 15 Brown's Moor Haigh 4 Main 14 _6 Hunwick l4 °a 0 14 Powell's Duffryn Steam m" 6 Whitworth Hough Hall 14 6 Bretton l7 3 Eden Main 0 in .............. . 1 1 1 0 tam 1 Hartlepool Hetton ...... • . 0 lb South Kelloe 9 14 ~Barton •,, 67 ; sold, 58. grallsond, &o. Framwellgate l4 9 Caseop 15 9 Kelloo ...16 2 Soacroft; j 4 3 Russell's liettou..... l5 5 Haswell 17 9 , Cowper,. Hartley ... l5 6 Ships at market Letters from Hamburg mention that the / 10 ° °° ; :ei Mr. Theodor Schmidt, which was one of the prinsw among those that suspended durin g th e cr i s i s i n Novet ber last, has resumed business, h av i ng paid all deina" — with interest and charges. goal" [ADVERTISEICENT.I—HoIIow a y' s Pill s a mos t lent Remedy for Indigestion.—Charles Strong, u r-Ig e ; Ilayer, of Burghfisld, near Readi ng , B er k s hi re , w ith gr - c e gratitude informs Professor Holloway that his pillil P itS cured him of indigestion, accompanied with 011 is horrors, after several physicians had been consulted r, vain. For three years he was troubled with these tw. L . rible symptoms, frequent vomitings, and want of 0 . 7 until he accidentlly beard of Holloway's Pills, and, PvveS severing steadily with the same, in a few weeks " ", e • restored tit perfect health.—Sold by all medieine dors throughout the world ; at . Professor Hellos 0 1. Establishment, 244, Strand, London ; by A. StstoP ir ' s Constantinople ; A. Guidicy, Smy rna ; an d B. 31t 3 " Malta. BIRT/IS. an BIDDULPH —On the 4th i ns t., a t Fitzroy-terrace, Reg -- „,/ • park, the wif e o f C o l onel Edward Biddulph, - daughter. BIRD —On the 3d inst., at Calverley-park, Timibviagfi; wells, the wif e of Major Robert Wilberforce Biro. ° eon. t 01 DRUMMOND —On the 6th i ns t., a t Ed w i ns f or d, the. 16 , 1 of her father, th e w if e o f Si r J ames Drummond, -02.1.", Hawthornden, of a son. lAGES. osel JONES—SPRATLEY—O MARR n the 3d inst., at St. - A B Church, Mr. R o b er t Jones, of the Place model Paris, to E mma , daughter of Mr. James SP"` "l ' Finch-hampstead, Berks. • 0. SATOW—KENT —On the 3d inst., at Hackney. t ° Stow, eldest so n o f M r . Andrew Satow, of Ablt , : Mary Darvall, f our th d aug ht er o f M r , Wm. A. Ken 21, Claptun-square. golf) THOMSON—DE BEAMIONT —On the 3d inst., au d pitish church, Brighton, Henry Byerley, 00 ° °° *O 3 viving s on o f th o l a t e D r. A n th ony T o dd Thowe°lbides .i ts h, r Majesty' s Ad voca t e f or C e yl on , t o S a ritc,, the e 1. 1 daughter of the Count de Beaumont. DEATHS. 4e t BARTON—On the 4th inst., the Rev. R., S. Barto n, re' of Heysham, Lancashire, aged 72. t of DRAMLY—On the 15th April, killed, before the =° l :,,go Rooheea, near Roodemao, in Oude, Alfred Jeeefil of Ilia'nlY , Lieut. 42d Royal Hight? nders fourth e..„ ° ;!,10t the Rev. Thomas Jennings BrAuly, of innbridge"'" Kent, aged 22. O. CAVENDISH-0n the 4th inst., at 36, Chesharn-Pe—' Hon. Mrs. Richard Cavendish, JONES —On the 4th inst., at Clmtharn Carolin e I 4n Lady Hardinge, wife of Henii T. Jones, Esq., a n re of the late Sir Richard Hantinge, Bart • LONDON Printo.l and Published by MIIRDO 1 " go. of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The SUPS 014). ,.„ 1 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in Ow ""' of Middlesex, Tuesday, June 8, 1858. ~_ Itons every e , Admiss at th e Cramer DR- 3, T LIMIT-RI quarter i b it XA.II DE St attd; fort v t,ted by beaten a tae alldts to b 4 at th, 4 41tet. 14 a quit MEI 1444. ;07i t n ._ A .1 14.33 . Po' Bsured mat dedu L to Notice " the p e a Wil l be he ~ 11 4,. - ` ° ° ll Preci we L ord ti dl: T e c t ° : ...on bt 4 40 Direct amain In ( Acci NOTICE the tkcaldental TRAY all the Pol tarch aaa a In wnditions Tot CI al Ann 'dent 9 and ' t O APPIy al MPany, 7, Bank N • Rolle! Capital • Itevenuc A.Ninc:te; mivid ed an the All Prot Prvit, f tatire dir Th e /0 Per cen 4, Bank .. T H IttniipArer, VI E Wes. R taintel - - wohn E Fat j. I feSSrs The n, It V, 18 Polley taken ant inj 1838 1841 ' 1845 1848 1851 The h Nations The Two , _ re y e; Its In Its Ir 1 )one 1 Its ai The Abot find of thre( For 1 11 in, 1 . 142, Int F Just r SE: • and 0 fro m 1 , t 4 Mai rla ge r enute naYste: • Urin e: eThipti atrl Te. A p c The 'Nue how, oth er Pattie their t he hi vine It Min e oat it ems, 1111 7 'MI tat dtritt Pa rihy • Ciord emu' kaifi uale Olc Will to June-2 Ticket,: &Mare, Nil Grad:, E rats]