The Sun. — London, England, 1858-05-29 00:00:00

lord consult some member of the late Government in the House of Commons I (Hear.) Why did he not go to the noble lord the member for Tiverton ? (Hear.) There is not, I believe, existing at present such an estrange ment between the noble lord and the noble lord the member for Tiverton as to prevent a frank and candid communication between them upon the subject. (Hear, and laughter.) If he had consulted the noble lord tho member for Tiverton, perhaps he might have found that that noble lord, as far as his own judgment and public experience went, would not have agreed with Lord Cla rendon as to the impression upon his mind. (Hear.) Why, what happened two days before the break up of the late Government ! The hen. gentleman the member fcr Devizes rose and put a question to the noble lord then at the head of the Government., having reference to our policy with regard to France ; and what said the noble lord ! (Hear.) Why, Sir, he rose in his place and said— " Before I answer the question of the hon. gentleman I would wish to put a question to the house. (Hear) I would ask the house what is their wish and what is their intention on a matter of great national importance. Is I it their wish and intention that those friendly and confi dential relations which so happily now subsist between the Governments of England and France should be maintained ; or is it their wish and intention to infuse into the relations between the two countries a spirit of irritation, of bitterness, and of animosity t" And the noble lord declined to answer the question. (Hear.) Now that was, I believe, only 48 hours before the break up of the late Government, and the noble lord conveyed to the house, when he declined to answer the question, that asking that question might alone decide the issues•of peace or war. (Hear.) Allow me to recommend the noble lord, who professes such ex traordinary astonishment at hearing that three months ago our relations with France were of a character so delicate, to consult the noble lord the member for Tiver ton upon the subject. Well, sir, at about the same period the noble lord will remember that the Ambassador of France quitted the Court to which he was accredited and returned to his own country • and such a step is only taken, as the noble lord must know, and as every one knows, in a critical state of affairs. (Hear.) The noble lord is astonished that I should hare referred to that critical nature of our relations with France. (Hear.) Why, sir, three months have passed away since that state of things existed, and what has occurred during that period has considerably—l may say entirely changed, the feeling which existed in the Cabinet and Court of the Tuileries. (Hear, and oh, oh !) I make that statement without fear of being contradicted by any person of authority. ("Oh, oh ! " from Mr. Rich.) is the hon. gentleman who cries " Oh, oh! " prepared to contradict it (Mr. Rich—Yes.) Well, then, upon so grave a subject I hope that he will come forward with those proofs which the house has a right to expect. (Hear.) Sir, the relations which existed between Eng land and France three months ago are very much changed, I may say entirely changed ; and there subsists at this moment, as is shown by the accord which now prevails between them in the management of great transactions, a closer approximation to that entire good feeling which was prevalent a year ago, and for a long time prior to that date, and which at present forms a marked contrast to the tone and temper that pervaded the two countries when we acceded to office. (Cheers.) Bat, says the noble lord, it is not merely the right hon. gentleman's statement as to France that requires expla nation ; a similar explanation is require 1 as to the state ment respecting Sardinia. And following the ingenious hut not very candid tactics which have characterised the whole construction of this not very terrible attack, the noble lord sought again to convey to the House of Commons that in what I had said in Bucking hamsire with regard to Naples and Sardinia I relate seated that an attempt had been made in this house to upset her Majesty's Government by encouraging a war between those two countries. Now, that is not true. I don't, of course, use that word in an offensive sense ; I only mean to say that the noble lord has got up his charges without sufficient care and reflection. (A laugh.) The tact is exactly the reverse of what he alleges. I did not assert that the House of Commons had endeavoured by exciting a war between Sardinia and Naples, to over turn or inconvenience the Government. What I said was, that there are persons who did this and who are trying to do it at this moment. (Hear, hear.) I entirely avoided it, because I felt it would be unjust, to lay this to the charge of the House of Commons. On the contrary, when the attempt is made, as I have no doubt it will be, and when the influence of these arch-intriguers may to a certain degree be felt in this assembly, I shall again appeal on the part of her Majesty's Ministers to the sense and spirit of the House of Commons, and even of those who are opposed to our general policy, for their support to enable the Government to prevent the break ing out of hostilities between those two Italian States. (Cheers.) The noble lord represents that I have gone down to the country to attack and malign the House of Commons. Now, is it not true that when I alluded to the late great deb ate, on which the fate of the Ministry seemed to hang, I called the attention of England to the extraordinary fact that, while the vote of censure upon the Government was undergoing full discussion, and when that vote had expanded under the marvellous and felicitous handling of the learned knight for Aylesbury on the last evening of debate into one of general want of confidence, night after night thus " weak Government," this Government placed upon its trial, was defended by the first men in this assembly, the first men in autho rity, in intellect, and in eloquence, not connected tee h them in politics, not bound to them by any ties of poli tical co-operation or association—by men speaking from their earnest convictions and lending their high autho• rity, unbiassed and uninfluenced, to the maintenance of truth and the defeat of a cabal ? (Cheers.) Was that an attack upon the honour:or upon the conduct of the House of Commons ? Was it not a publie declaration on the part of her Majesty's Government that they had full confidence in the generous justice of the House of Com mons—that confidence which they still retain ? And it is in the spirit of that confidence that I trust I shalt be able, with my colleagues, to baffle those intrigues which I know are already commenced to inconvenience, if pos sible, her Majesty's Government. (Cheers.) But the noble lord tells us he was extremely surprised—and this also demanded explanation—at the observations I made re specting our policy towards the people of India, He says I stated that we had prevented a policy of extermi nation in India, that we ourselves were oppo ed to that policy, and that I had attempted to convey to the coun try that those who are our competitors for power were in favour of extermination. Now, sir, neither in this house, nor in the county of Buckingham, nor in any other place, have I ever heard the word "extermina tion" uttered. But with that ingenious spirit of per version and that dext. rota tone of exaggeration which have to-night distinguished the somewhat penurious in vective of the noble lord, and which have led him to state that I went into the country to vilify the House of Commons, when in truth I offered it the sincere homage of my respect, he has here again distorted what was a mere declaration of our hostility to a policy of confisca tion into an accusation that our opponents were in favour of a policy of extermination. (Cheers.) I said in Buckinghamshire what I have said in this house more than once, and what I am at all times prepared to up hold ; that we are opposed to a policy of confiscation — that we are in favour of a policy of discriminative amnesty, of a policy that will respect the religion, re spect the property, and treat with a decent and due re regard the-rights and customs of the natives of India. I regret to have again to reiterate these sentiments, but it is forced upon me by the unseemly attack of the noble lord, which prevents us from going into committee of supply. (limo, hear.j But, continued the noble lord, all these unauthorized observations on foreign affairs and India policy subside into nothing eompared with the unconstitutional declaration of the Minister to his con stituents that if Parliament had not supported them a dissolution would have been the consequence. Now, the noble lord may read my speech again, and perhaps he will favour me with the passage in which that state ment is made. (Laughter.) He began by boldly de elariog that I had informed my constituents that if on a the majority had gone against the Ministry there would have been a dissolution of Parliament. At the end of his address he told us it was very unconstitutional be cause I bad intimated that if the Government bad not been successful "there probably would have been" a dissolution. Well, that second version of my statement makes the matter not quite so unconstitutional as the first. All I can say is that I made no such declara tion as the noble lord has described, and that what I did say on that subject was so guarded and so constitu tional—(laughter) — that I think it is the right of any gentleman to allude to such a contingency as not impos sible or even improbable. (Cheers.) No position, however responsible, wisi,oh any individual may occupy, can , po - sibly deprive him of the privilege of making a reference so guarded in its terms that no man can fairly torture it into an absolute declaration from a Minister of the Crown. What I stated was, I believe, literally this— " If, as might have been the case, we had found ourselves upon the hustings, I should have appealed with confi dence again to your support, and I have no doubt the verdict of the country would have been given in our favour." (Cheers.) But the noble lord went into many precedents against the policy of a dissolution, and he told us that in 1852 he had never counselled the Q leen when he was in a minority to dissolve Parliament. Well, it would have been a v ry bold thing if he had—(a hes)) —for the noble lord had then, I think, be. n six years in office, and he had several intimations that the House of Commons wanted to get rid of him. (Laughter.) More over, be had resigned a year before, and the Parliament at that time had been- elected under his own auspice P. (Cheers.) That a Minister who has enjoyed the high pri vilege of having a Parliament elected under his own aus• pleas, who finds that Parliament so dccilo that it sup ports strteshoi for five yes i rs, a n d th oug h, when its pa' iei ce is quite ex ' iati led, it compels him to reign, 3• t by th e moist fortunate combination of luck in the world v tiLa . ren e w al t a _fell. of h is lot of a Mi n i s t er , it i s wi lli ng t o give su i cl is l ea s e f or anot h er 12 months--that a Minister in ! , : se osition should a t th e en d o f s i x years claim the apra , of the Ruse of Commons and co t h e approbation of the nt because he did no t t a k e upon himself to advise her o Majes ty to dissolve P a • La. meat appears to me one of the rem arkable inst anc e s of self-complacen c y w hich the ann al s o f though of this nation can pro duce. (Laughter and cheers.) t a the noble lord was evide ntl y ver y sore o n this subject eictinof a dis solution, and thoug h he bad e xhausted by the previous a droit p erversions in which ingenuity by indulged, yet as his theme advanced he could not, from the natural candour of his disposition, help admitting that neither in this nor in the other house had there been any declaration of a kind which could untron stitutionally influence the debate or the division. And here the noble lord spoke only the truth. Neither in the House of Lords nor in the House of Commons can it be THE SUN, LONDON,' alleged that before the division was expected to take place at the close of the late debate any intimation was made of the Royal will, or any indication given of the policy which the Government would recommend to the Sovereign in respect to a dissolution. But, observed the noble lerd--and this is a point on which he and his friends are very sensitive—this event was talked about everywhere—in the clubs, in the lobby of this house,. I suppose, and certainly also with admirable frankness here by several gentlemen below the gangway. (Laughter.) "The word dissolution," said the noble lord, " was spoken every where ; the practice of so speaking it is most inconvenient, and I must, in a high constitutional manner, gravely deprecate and denounce it." Well, I believe the noble lord is quite correct as to the fact. You really could not enter any house in England in which it was not said, " It must end in a dissolution. Why did they say so What made people everywhere say " This must end in a dissolution." Why, Sir, it was the conduct of certain individuals in this house, who so behaved towards her Majesty's Government that peo ple began to see and to feel that there was no alter native but getting rid of the house. (Laughter.) The people who said it everywhere felt that Lord Derby had been called upon by her Majesty most unexpectedly to form a Goverment. Lord Derby told her Majesty that he had not declared followers in the popular house suf ficient to give him anything approaching to a ma j rity, and in an admirable spirit humbly counselled her Majesty to reconsider her appeal to him, at the same time rightly assuring her that, whatever might be her decision, he was entirely devoted to her service. Her Majesty graciously condescended to reconsider her appeal. These are not State secrets. The noble lord seemed to intimate to the house and to the country that I had been telling State secrets in Buckinghamshire, but these are the statements which, by her Majesty's permission, the Earl of Derby made in the House of Lords when he announced his accession to office. (Hear.) Well, the people of this country knowing all this, knowing that Lord Derby and his friends had not been eager to seize the spoils of office, but hail acted very differently from the conduct of others recently—(a laugh)—knowing that it was after the due representation of these difficulties to her Majesty that she repeated her wish, and that it was in deference to her commands and from a paramount sense of duty, that we took this re sponsibility—knowing, as they did, that we had sedu lously, honestly, and not altogether without success, ad ministered affairs during our brief tenure of office, the great body of the people, whether Whigs, Tortes, or Radicals, when they saw a cabal organised—(cheers)— when they saw the sense and spirit of the House of Com mons exhibited by some of its most eminent members opposed to the Government generally, but yet not con deseending to take part with that cabal—(hear, hear)-- when they saw all these circumstances, felt as every man of spirit, whatever his political opinions, must have felt, that a Government which had acceded to power under such circumstances and encountered such opposition could not in duty recede from its position without hum• bly counselling her Majesty to exert her constitutional privileges. It wanted Ale Minister to menace Parliament —it wanted not even the private intimations of people in office to influence votes. The fear of a dissolution, the announcement of a dissolution, came from the opposite benches—from the opposite party. (Hear, hear.) It was the general opinion of the country, which felt that the Government of Lord Derby, encountering such opposi tion, ought not to and could not fail without appealing to the popular tense. (Hear.) That was the general feeling. It required no unconstitutional, no unduesex ercise of our position and authority to influence the pub lic voice and the division of this house. Palle opinion was in our favour, because public opinion was outraged by the conduct of certain individuals ; to that public opinion we appeal, and I believe that it will sup • port us, notwitstanding such sorry attacks as I have met this evening. (Load and continued cheering.) Mr. RICH said the right hon. gentleman had asked why the noble lord the member for the City had gone for information on our foreign relations to Lord Clarendon ; but who so proper to go to on such a subject as the late Secretary for Foreign Affairs f He did not regard the ans wer of the late Prime Minister to Mr. Griffith, or the change in the French embassy, as forming the shadow of a shade of foundation for the right hon. gentleman's assertion with regard to the alleged im minency of a war with France. He considered the right hon. gent eman's statement was, in fact, a most unjustifiable attack both on England and on Franca ; and it would ill become tiat house to rest satisfied with such flimsy and irrelevant excuses as the right hon gentleman had given. (Laughter from the ministerial benches.) The right hon. gentleman said that he had praised the house; but, in point of fact, he bad only praised those who supported him ; and when he talked about a cabal, was he prepared to recommend her Ma jesty to reinstate Lord Ellenborough 1 If the debate had gone on, it would have been shown that the right hon. gentleman was more guilty than even the noble earl who had been made his victim ; for the right hon. gentleman had himself, without consulting the nolla earl, his colleague, divulged the contents of the de spatch, and thus rendered its publication necessary. It was the right hon, gentleman himself who had osused the resignation which Lord Ellenborough had so ma.- naaimously tendered, and which the right hon. gentle man had, with such questionable taste, copied. (Hear.) Sir G. C. LEWIS said it was with great reluctance that he made any observation upon toe speech of the right hon. gentleman, but being the only person con nected with the late Government present [a great num ber of members had left the hoes° immediately after Mr. Disraeli's speech], he felt it his duty not to let some of the observations which had fallen from the right hon. gentleman pass without noties. The right hon, gentle man's observations consisted mainly in denying the ac curacy of the report of his speech which had appeared in the newpapers. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I beg your pardon. What I objected to was the language attributed to me by the noble lord. Ido not at all ques tion the accuracy of the reports. Sir G. LEWIS ventured, from his recollection of the reports of the speech in the newspapers, to affirm that his noble friend's version was more accurate than the account given of it by the right hon. gentleman himself. That was the deliberate statement which he (Sir G. Lewis) made in that house. (Hear, hear,) With regard to what the right hon. gentleman had said with respect to Oude, he (Sir G. Lewis) begged to say that what the right hon. gentleman had condemned was a policy of massacre and extermination. He had a distinct recol lection that the word "massacre" was used. (Hear, hear.) Now he (Sir G. Lewis) claimed for the late Ge vernment a policy of clemency and mercy so far as justice to our own countrymen would permit. (Hear.) The popular objection to the policy of Lord Canning, which policy had received the approbation of the late Govern meet, was that it was a weak policy, that it erred too much on the side of lenity, and that bis administration of justice was not sufficiently severe. He was at a loss to under stand the panegyric which the right hon. gentleman had pronounced upon himself for having repudiated the imaginary policy of confiscation. (Hear.) As to this country and France being within a few hours of war, when the late Government left office they were wholly ignorant of the danger in which the right hon. gentleman said the country was placed. (Hear, hear.) The division by which the late Government were put out of office took them by surprise—(a laugh)—they were not aware that our relations with France were of a menacing kind. Undoubtedly there was a strong feeling in this coon try with reference to the expressions which had been used by officers of the French army, and inserted in the Moniker, and which it was thought had not been sufficiently disavowed ; but to say that there was any such misunderstanding between the two governments as threatened this country with an imminent war was, in his opinion, one of the grossest misrepresenta ti ins which a responsible minister had ever attempted to impose upon the house and the country. (Hear.) He denied it in the most positive manner, and was satisfied that the;right hon. gentleman would find himself utterly unable to produce any evidence in support of his asset.. tion. The only fragment or attempt at proof which he had been sae to produce was the answer made by Lord Palmerston to Mr. Griffith, when he asked what was undoubtedly a somewhat indiscreet question at that moment. Lord Palmerston had declined to answer that question, and had said that if such questions, pointing personally at the Emperor of the French, and impugn ing his veracity and good faitb, were to be put from day to-day in that house, it would be likely to lead to mitts understanding, and perhaps war, between the two coun tries. But that did not in any way relate to pending negotiations, or to anything that bad passed between the two Governments. (Hear.) He thought that the ques tion of India was in a very grave state ; but he was per fectly contented to take his share of responsibility fur having supported the motion of Mr. Cardwell. He believed that that motion was founded upon perfectly good and defensible principles. Notwithstanding all that had passed he retained the opinion that the com position of L or d E l l en b orough ' s despatc h , an d the pub lication of that secret despatch in the way_in_which it hadi deserved th e ur f avoura bl e not i ce o f the h ouse. been . done in that h ouse , was a grea t o ff ence , w hi c h announcementeceeffect—it h a d o f producedt he motion the had re s hadg nationat l e o a f s t L o o n r d e juhstey bo goodTtEhi e lEllenborough. p o t u a g n h c . e (Hear) his resignationenr)Hiswithdbrawthaell Prime e offi m ce, and t was so far an ackno w l e d gment of t y he justice of tb mi e s ce e n r, - sure which the house was inclined t'? p (Haar.) The subsequ en t pu b l cation ofatshseupseocn his act retCorr ;- pondence between Lord C ann i ng and Sir James Outram —rendered necessary, he admitted, by the previous im proper publication of Lord Ellenborough despatch , was attended with grave inconvenience for many r e a sons. On no previous occ asio n had a correspondence oftbat nature been submitted to the house. Sir James Outram was distinctly charged to suppress all the copies of the proclamation in its original form ; but this identical proclamation had been laid on the table of the house, and would thug be made public to all India. (Hear, hear.) He could not but think that the production of that correspondence was an atzgravati - m of the ceiginial offence. Ile had hoped thet the goverment would have been able to a-in unce the appointment of a responsible minister to preside over the Board of Control ; but that expectation had not been satisfied that evening. Lord Ellenborough, he presumed, held office only until his succes-or was appointed ; it would be unreasonable to ask for any explanation of policy from him, or to inquire what were the intentions of the government until that office was filled. As soon as this was done, he hoped to hear from the President of the Board of Control, if a member of that house, or from some other member of the government, a distinct statement of what they intended to do with the territ pry of Oude. Mr. M. GIBSON—We seem to be in a somewhat un settled state, and I shall not venture to intrude my opi nion upon the house as to the cause of the uneasiness which exists ; but I may be permitted to notice the remark s of the ri g ht h on . gen tl eman w ho s p o k e l as t w ith respect to the publi ca ti on o f th e correspon d ence b e t ween the ( governor-General and Sir Jamei Oatram. The right hon. gentleman objected to the production of that correspondence. I hold an entirely different opinion. I ; friend (Lord Palmerston) for having disiolved this house believe that the House of Commons has suffered far after its vote respecting China. But why had he not more from suppression and secresy than from publicity, seized the first opportunity to tell his noble friend how (Hear.) I will not be one to complain of a Government, ! unconstitutionally be had acted? It was marvellous that whether Conservative or Liberal, who think it consistent he had omitted until the present moment to notice that with their public duty to communicate information to when the house voted against the policy of the Chi the House of Commons ; and I say that I think that nese war the late First Lord of the Treasury, "the most those gentlemen who brought forward the late motion popular Minister the country ever had," dissolved Par in reference to Lord Ellenborough's despatch have no liament, in spite of ail constitutional arguments to the right whatever to complain of the production of the cor- contrary, which he must have imbibed from association respondence as respects their own interests, for it far- with the noble lord (J. Russell) and sent hon. members nished them with a creditable mode of escaping from a about their business. But why should the noble lord be so very difficult position. (Cries of " Hear," from the Mini- , sensitive about a dissolution ? Did not ardent patriots sterial side.) I believe that motion was from the begin- always rejoice to meet their constituents ? (A. laugh.) If ning based on a false issue, and that it would have ended hon. members had been faithful to their trust, why should in any case in a defeat ; but the being able to say that they fear to appear on the hustings ? The noble lord's further information had put the matter in a different po- speech showed a just appreciation of the disagreeable iiion was, in point offset, beine able to take advantage consequences of meeting his constituents to justify a vote of a mode of escape somewhat more creditable than in condemnation of the policy of Lord Ellenborough. otherwise would have been the case. (Hear, hear.) I He (Mr. Whiteside) thought that, unexpected as this was not prepared to-night for a discussion on the state of ; discussion had been, nothing had been said in the course the nation, and I think that some notice ought to have of it to prejudice either the conduct of the Government been given of the intention to raise such a discussion— or the speech of his right hon. friend. (Hear, hear.) (hear, hear)—but with respect to some observations Lord J. RUSSEL L said he had no t intended to mis which have been made in reference to the Conspiracy represent the right hon. gentleman. He thought the word Bill I will take leave to say that I did not collect from used was " extermination ;" he now found that it was the public statements of the right hon. member for " unmitigated vengeance and massacre." (Hear, hear.) Buckinghamshire that he approved the Conspiracy He assured the last speaker that he had not thrown any Bill itself as proposed by the late Government, but that blame on Lord Palmerston for dissolving Parliament. he would not be a party to object to the introduction of Mr. GRIFFITH having been frequently ref rred to, a measure in deference to the wishes of the French Go- wished to observe that the majority of 200 in favour of vernment. (Hear, hear.) I really, when I brought the introduction of the Conspiracy Bill had been ob forward my amendment, framed it with the feeling on tained by the production of a despatch of Count Wa my mind that hon. gentlemen were not committed to lewki, disavowing the language of the French colonels ; the merits of the particular measure, and without know- but it was not then known that that despatch would re ing what course hoe. gentlemen would take, I felt that ceive the same publicity as the regimental addresses. there was nothing in the public speeches which had Finding this was the case, he had put the question to been made that precluded members from opposing the Lord Palmerston that had been referred to ; and he Conspiracy Bill on its merits on the second reading, and , thought it a most appropriate question. I am one of those who never considered that there was CAPTAINS ON THE HALF-PAY LIST. any inconsistency in a member voting for the first read- Sir DE L. EVANS moved for an humble address to ing of a bill, and afterwards voting against the principle her Majesty praying that her Majesty would begracion , ly of the bill on the second reading. With respect to the pleased to take into consideration the hardship experi question of Sardinia and Naples, I for one should be enced by captains of cavalry and infantry, who, having very sorry to see the Government of the day urged into been reduced to the non-effective list by order of Govern s* unnece sarily hostile course in reference this mat• meat, at the termination of the late war in 1856, and ter, as if it were an evil that the question between Sar- tieing replaced on the effective strength of the army on dinia and Naples should be settled without fighting. the breaking oat of the war in the East in 1857, found (Hear, hear.) A resolution come to at the Conference themselves posted to regiments in relatively inferior at Paris pointed out a mode of settling differences that rank to lieutenants, who had obtained the rank of cap might arise between the Powers of Europe ; and the tain, by purchase or otherwise, during the intermediate representatives of the great Powers at that Conference year of peace. The hon. and gallant gentleman, who all pledged themselves that previously to having recourse was indistinctly heard, said he understood that the cap to arms it was desirable to settle such disputes as might Mine of cavalry and infantry were pitched upon by the occur by arbitration or mediation. That having been Government, when the non-effective list was made out, the deliberate resolution of the parties to the Conference, rather than the subalterns, beoause 61. or 7d. additional and it having been so recently agreed to, I certainly per day would be saved ; but he thought that was by no cannot complain if tba Government did appear desirous means a justification of any departure from the ordinary of bringing into action the principle of that resolution, practice, and he appealed to the house as a matter of and of endeavouring by every means in their power to equity in favour of redress being given to these officers. bring about a settlement of this question between Sar- Those officers had been reduced improperly and inequi• ditlia and Naples by arbitration or mediation. I there- tably, and were called upon after 10 months to come fore could not, for one, have been a party to support any back, not to a peace but to a war service, many of them motion made in this house with a view to prevent, as it being men of most distinguished merit. He would not were, the peaceable settlement of the question. (Hear, detain the house further. hear.) lam extremely glad to find that on the question The amendment having been put, of India both sides of the house are willing to support, Col. NORTH bad no objection to second the motion, or to avow their support of, the principles of humanity and wished its objects could be carried into effect. He and mercy. I remember reading not long since a re- had upon a former occasion remonstrated against the markable passage in the leading jour na l to this effect— unjust treatment of those officers. Still, he must own that in the affairs of India humanity and justice were there was great difficulty in dealing with the question. secondary considerations. Well, lam glad to find that The amendment on the original motion having been we are not ashamed to be thought capable of acting in put, the spirit of humanity, justice, and mercy to the people Gen. PEEL replied, admitting the hardship of the of India, notwithstanding the great atrocities which case put by the hon, and gallant officer the member for have undoubtedly been committed towards our own fel- Westminster, but it was quite impossible to make the low-subjects in that country, (Hear.) I, therefore, am exception for which he asked without ex ;ending it over glad that this discussion has arisen , in order that the the whole army. He was not in offi ce at the time the world may see that as passions have become subdued all reduction complained of took place, and was not there parties are favourable to a policy of humanity and fore responsible. ' mercy. (Hear.) If there bo astonishment felt that a Sir DE L. EVANS withdrew his amendment. great party like the Liberal party, being superior, no EDUCATION IN THE ARMY. . doubt, in numbers both in the country and this house Mr. MONSELL put three questions to the Secretary to what is called the Conservative party, should never- for War. The first was whether or not the right hon. theless find itself on the Opposition benches, I think gentleman intended to carry out the principle affirmed that that state of affairs can only be explained by this by a resolution of the House of Commons with regard simple circumstance—that the party has been badly led to the scientific corps of the army • if a minute had and badly handled ; that those who h a ve conceived the been issued to that effsct, and if suc hl minute would be policy which it should adopt and support have been laid upon the table of the house l secondly, wilt mistaken, and we have, unfortunately, by those mis tiler any changes were in contemplation in respect takes been led to the ",cold shade" of Opposition, when to Woolwich, in which place it was absolutely otherwise hon. gentlemen near me would have still been necessary to make changes for the reception of on the Treasury benches. lam firmly myself of this cadets, of whom there were now three or four of 21 or 22 opinion, and I see no chance whatever of the restoration years of age sleeping in the same room, and without pri to power of the Liberal party, unless that party brings vale rooms for study ? and thirdly, he wished to ask the forward its own measures, founded on its own prig- right hon. gentleman as to the constitution of the coun ciplea, and carries its measures through into practical cif of military education ? They were much indebted to effect, and shows to the country that it is not merely the the Commander-in-Chief for the establishment of the Liberal party in name, but that it is earnest in the cause council of military education, which would produce the cf reform, and will use power, when it has it to carry its beet results, but he wanted to know whether upon that principles into practical legi lation. (Hear, bear.) councl the right hon. gentleman would not place an Mr. COLLIER said that the Chancellor of the Ex- artillery officer, and also some civilian like Canon Most. chi quer had charged Lord Jofin Russell with grave tins- ley, who was conversant with the subject generally ? representations of what he had said at Slough ; but, as He mentioned Canon Moseley as it was well known the correctness of the report was admitted, be would what time and attention he had given to this subject. read a short passage from it. Lord John Russell had Gen. PEEL replied to all three questions in the affir said that he (Mr. Disraeli) accused certain statesmen of tnative. It was the intention of the Government to early advocating a policy of cruelty, massacre, and cxtermina- out the resolution of that house. A minute in accord tion. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said he had ance therewith had been printed, and would be laid on done no more than allude to confiscation. (Hear, hear.) the table, that would improve the condition of the Wool- Let the house judge between them. The right hon. wich establishment, and Carson Moseley had been ap gentleman was reported to h a ve sa id, " But we had to plied to, and would accept a place in the council for decide—for it was the turning point of our Indian em- military education. (Cheers.) pire—the character of the policy which ought to be pur- ARMY ESTIMATES. sued ; whether it should be a poliny of unmitigated von- The house then went into committee on the army esti geance, or whether the time had arrived when we should mater ,(aLe". attempt to rebuild ourgreat empire in the east on principles of a very different character, and leading, as we believed, to chareesaforeducation, vote of 118 71817t/hebeeeiienngtipfireofroasteieds of t the e fray the Sir D. NORREYS asked when the report on tlseO a very different result. Was it to be m litary occupa- nance survey would be laid on the table. r service. i. tiou by an army four times greater in amount than any General PEEL replied that the report was ready, and army of Europeans that ever entered that country ? would be laid on the table in a few days. Was it to be military occupation, attended by enormous Mr. MONSELL called attention to the scale of pay tax ttion, by a draining of her Majesty's subjects from mentsnow required for cadets at Sandhurst College. Tue this country, and by a perpetual exhaustion of our re- establishment scarcely cost the country anything for the sources ? Or were we to recognise that vengeance had payment of the cadets supported, but he wished to know done its duty ? Were we to recognise that the time had a why d a gen i t le F ' a t colonel s on paida-year, while the son of n d a i n e g a a t a rlo n g i ran t and paid so but on arrived, or was fast arriving, when, upon the fall of the 80 1 1 a a ull iie ' u o t r enant-cn c e o l ra 7T rebellious capital, we ought to a n n o u n c e to the inhabi- Re should be sorry to makean'y objection p against facilities tants of India the principle on which we proposed to re- being afforded to the sons of officers receiving an educe construct our empire—a principle that we believed must tion at a cheap rate, but that ought not to be done at the contribute to their happiness and to the welfare and expense of private gentlemen who sent their sons into power and glory cf this country ? Was it always to be these schools. In no country in Europe was such's system massacre and confscatite ? Or, on the other hand, was practised but iu this. Fr ance , Austria, and Pru ssia, had it to be discriminating amnesty ' ? (Loud cheers from the bourses for the sons of officers where they received a free Ministerial benches.) Hon. gentlemen opposite cheered education, but however that maybe, the public ought not to be made to pay for the son s o f o the r p eo ple. loudly, and they had given e ffi cient support to the Go Col. NORTH rem inded his right hon, friend that Sand vernment lately by their lungs at least. (A. laugh.) The hurst was - inten d e d originally for the orphan children of question was whether the right hon. gentleman was con officers, and was established . by the Duke of York, and rect in stating that he had referred only to confiscation, mainly by the exertions of a gallant officer, the father of an Mr, WIIITESIDE said it was right that the house hon. baronet (Sir Denis le Merchant), who headed a bril should understand what the noble lord intended to int- Rant charge•at the battle of Vittoria. In lels it contained pute to the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the 412 cadets, 156 of whom were the orphan children of offi- Exchequer. The right hon. gentleman inquired whe- cars who had fallen in action, and the country contributed Cher the policy to be pursued is India was to be one of to its support no less than 21,3001. Ten years after, how vengeance and confiscation, or one consistent with an ever, the services of the army were forgotten, and through enlightened amnesty I Now, he (Mr. Whiteside) upheld the instrument ali ty o f certain w hon. members of that house, orphan with altogether. and the and abided by that sentiment, which was a sentiment of away y rom Sir D. g NORREYS, the vote was humanity and reason, and consistent with the opinions of the people of this country—(hear) —and he was stir- agreed to. g f r t a e : a c lass tfoe strd the school prised to see those gentlemen who were so confident The text vote was a sum of 15,3201. for military services. of the censure they sought to cast on the Government, Lord HOTHAeI complained of the practice which now but who shrunk from bringing their motion of censure prevailed with respoot to the decoration of the Order of to the test of a division, now come forward and corn- the Ba;h. Instead of a gallant officer who received that plain of that language. The right hon. gentleman the reward being allowed to transmit the decoration to his member for Radnor said he abided by all that the posterity, the first thing done oat the news of his death was right hon. member for Oxford did and intended to do, the Order , r application toh ti g y 1. order a e o n f t a t t h i e v Prince et Order of f that he was affected by no arguments, changed by no the Bath ' whicL r h e e p o ffi cers of the r l e i t ri l t r i a sh it. serv i i h ce e receiv ed facts facts ; in fact, that he wail unchangeable, and to be con- were obviously of so little value that they felt it necessary vinced by n othi n g. (Hear, an d l a ughter) The right h on . to go to a j ewe ll er , an d to h ave it f urn i s h e d w ith a silver gentleman abided by all his original and erroneous opi• decoration, without which he would be ashamed to appear nions, and sought to persuade himself—for he never with it. He might advert to the distribution of the Order would persuade any one else—that the whole Hous e of at the close of the Crimean war, when the French officers, Commons was wrong and he himself alone right. (Hear, as well as the British, were selected to receive it; and state and a laugh.) The right hon. gentleman said that he had that while the Order distributed to the French was mounted not been aware in reference to France and England of in silver, that distributed to the British officers —he spoke anything likely to lead to a collision between the two it not offensively—was mhunted in pasteboard, and was countries. The right hon. gentleman mu tt surely have of . s o H i e n fe r k ior a descr ip tion that they could not wea r libertybringing of the subject under M the consideration of been living in the Republic of Plato, and not the ordi- too the house last year, and it was his nary world. (A. laugh.) He asked for proofs of this fact? intention to have followed it up es e rly r, in this session, but it was rather a strange thing to call upon a Minister had not a change of Government taken place. There of the Crown to prove seriatim all the different matters was, however, a gallant officer now in the War-office, who, communicated to him which would justify a statement he had no doubt, would recommend such an improvement to his constituents, but which yet might not be capable in the order as would give satisfaction. of accurate and logical demonstration. Did the right Col. NORTH could bear testimony to much of what had hon. gentleman, however, mean to toll this house that fallen from his hon. and gallant friend, and he was rite s the matter could not be in better hands th an there was no language used by French military men, thehaN;rflt none publi-hed by the journals, none employed in high p h ar on iro a e n a d t. gallant friend now at the head o quarters, which offended, and justly offended, the people General BULK ELEY, in calling attention to the distri- Of this country ? Did he mean to say that there were no bution of the Victoria Cross, referred to its bestowal on facts patent to everybody which justified the apprehen• the present Sir H. Havelock in a manner not undue to sion of a collision between the two countries I The right that gallant officer, for his distinguished service in heading .hop. gentleman might have remembered these facts in the 64th regiment in a difficult service, but complained of ilia calmer moments—for he had been unusually lively this by that gallant regiment as being limited in its honour to evening, while the noble lord was particularly tranquil, a single individual, whereas the service was of a nature (A laugh.) The allusion to what had passed in this house entitling the whole regiment to a participation in the glory respecting our relations with France was not quite fair ag e d i s ) . a c t k t nowledgment of the valour of attack ing e ne t to Sir Henry and accurate. The motion of the right hon. gentleman HavelocE'cry s . a He must, howeesier,tintajtuos acceptic the order, (Mr Gibson) censored the late Government for not having which he cor y asiiier w ereq v u e a r Tly r du ac e to a the valour of the gal replied to a despatch affecting the honour and dignity of lent 64th Regiment. (Hear.) this country; and the House of Commons in passing that Mr. BRISCOE agreed in the opinion that officers who resolution did not decide that the law of conspiracy might received the Order of the Bath were ashamed to wear it. not be considered at a fit and proper time. The house When they received the order they sent it to a jeweller, was of opinion that the Ministry did not discharge their who gave an increased value to it ; but the " order," h t t his duty on that occasion ; but the right hon. gentleman death, was applied for, and his relatives had to give i t up. thought the House of Commons was wrong again. With Sir C. LEWIS said allusion having been he w po a s t ed to be regard to the affair of Naples, he (Mr. Whiteside) main- observat i on conferredno2isHwhd n the k an i i i i e ui annuity te beggedwatopsraoy, in expla taitied that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had just nat o n that o he diinot av m elo ea c n , to Gist any imputation on cause for what he sail as to the atterup•edatnicable set- the gitl'latit o ffi cer who commanded the 61th Re g iment, or tlement of that question. H e could quite understand upon that gallant regiment itself, of whose gallantry he that England, being on terms of friendship with Sardinia, entertained the highest opinion. (Hear.) should wish to stand by a country governed not upon . General PEEL was glad to bear his testimony to the Mazaininn pr nciples, not by the despotism of the soldier valour of the Glth Regiment, than which a more gallant or tie priest, but upon constitutional principles. But, corps was not in the service. however v ell disposed we might be towards Sardinia, we Mr. MONSELL expressed a hope that the hon. and gal were • in relation to not bound at all times to undertake every quart of lant gentlemen would carry nob . s e t o oa j which the whole she might engage in with other countries. Why had not theOie w le a r s o , f , t r h oe s i ßath, being j c this question ben debated ? He had real the papers mi. te n s e a r W. CODRINGTON said that there were two things neatly, expecting a discussion i n thi s h ouse ; a nd be connected with the " star." One was the " tinselled star." maintained that the noble earl at the head of the Foreign When an officer received it, ho was obliged to go to a office, although be might not have tie wgrap n c on es to j ewe ll er to get it set in silver. He himself hal distributed write him u p, h a d di sc harged hi; duty with firmness, the star set in silver to the French officers; but the star moderati on , an d a bility. (Hear.) B ith the noble lord given to the British officers was a mere tinselled order, (J. Russell) and the right hen. tlseeme d gen eman some- . which they wore ashamed to wear. The other consider*. what excited with teen was, the; there was a jewel in the order which was respect to India ; and the latter had very costlyt in Ile thought the . jewel might be made much asked, no doubt with perfect s' ' what incerity, was the o•• • Pet d his opinion,instead of b in g taken from smeller, t - i • i y f the Government? Hal the right hon. gentleman o n his death, it ought to be given the family of an officer ral the despatches ? If so, he did not appear to . have by the Drown to the o ffi cer with the understanding that it mastered the principle which pervaded them. If the would descene to his children. (Hears hear ) Make the right hon• gentleman would examine these de•Patehes in order as cheap as they liked, but let it descend as an lion the philosophical manner in which he read a book, he our to his children. would understand the policy of the Government—e po- I Loid HOTIIANI said it would be very desirable to have licy which had not been disapproved by the house, and the order made lighter. A sh it s was, it was so heatry that which they were not afraid would be disapproved by the it was always expo-gad to the danger of falling from the country. The noble lord had concluded his speech by a officer's brew tby the action of his horse. Mr. WILLIAMS said , looking at the li s t, he saw an shirt dis.erte tion u p on the constituti on. It was a very i mmense number of o ffi cers air non-commiss i oned o ffi cers uncons tit u tional thing, he said, to threat en th e h ouse i . down n it as receiving pensions, amounting in the whole with a dissolutio n ; and of course it was even more un - ! to 2,240,0001. ' constitutional to do the act itself. Then the noble lord, An HON. MEMBER —Including the half - pay. I knowing what would othe rwise be said to him, took good Mr. WILLIAMS—WeII, including the hallpay. He care to give a gentle and temperate rebuke to his noble should have thought that, after the Crimean war, a dimi. :., SATURDAY t_ .l 4/ ENIN G, MAY 29, 1858. nation rather than an increase would have taken place in those estimates. The vote was then agreed to, as were also the following votes :- 16,3581. towards completing the expenses of war ser vices. 39,511/. towards defraying the charges of general officers. 333,237/. towards completing the allowances to retired officers. 139,132 1 . towards completing the allowances and pen sions to officers' widows. 34,313/. towards completing the allowances to wounded officers. 21,372/. towards defraying, the expenses of Kilnaainham Hospital. 802,863/, towards completinc , the allowances to the out pensioners of Chelsea Hospital. ' 86,410/. towards completing the cost of the superannua tion allowances. 46,219/. towards completing the expenses of maintaining the Royal Palaces. Mr. WILLIAMS could not conceive how such a sum could be proposed for the maintenance of the Royal Palaces. Agreed to. 110,6511. towards defraying the rent and expenses of maintaining and repairing offices. Mr. WISE, in reference to this vote, said it was much to be regretted that the numerous small offices were dis tributed in various parts of the metropolis, and not con centrated. Mr. WILLIAMS (after a few words from Mr. HAMIL. TON, explanatory of the vote, and expreisivo of the inten tion of the Treasury to give their best attention to the sub ject), said that he saw a sum of 6,3811., and another sum of 7,0731. put down in the estimates or furnishing and maintaining those palaces, and also items for keeping up certain old abbeys in Scotland. Lord J. MANNERS said that the buildings referred to belonged to the country. and if they were to be kept up at all they must be so by the country. He could assure the hon. gentleman, however, that he would do his utmost to keep the expenditure down. As to the cost of coals and firewood, he admitted that it was large, but this would be almost the first year in which any attempt had been made to introduce supervision into this department, and he hoped that, by means of such supervision, considerable saving would be effected. As to the large number of houses re quired for the war department he admitted that the hon. gentleman was quite right as to the facts, but as they came under another item, perhaps it was better not to discuss that question until they came to the proper time. Mr. WILLIAM i said he found sums down for the maintenance and repair of such places as Arbroath Abbey, Dunfermline Abbey, Dumblane Abbey, and others in Scotland. We had many old abbeys in this country. but their maintenance and repair did not cost the people at large anything. If these abbeys belonged to any place in particular it was Scotland, and Scotland ought to pay for them. Sir G. LEWIS said the reason why the old abbeys and public monuments in Scotland were charged on the public. while those in England were not, was, that the latter were generally endowed, or were parts of large estates, while in Scotland there were no such private and independent means of support. With respect to the numerous houses that had to be hired for public business, and the rents that had to be paid for them, while he admitted that at first sight it might seem more extravagant than to have a concen trated suite of public offices upon one spot belonging to the Government, he doubted whether, on close examina tion, this would not prove an erroneous idea. It would be re•elleoted that meny of those houses were hired merely to meet an accidental exigency, and could be relinquished whenever the emergency passed away. Many of them also wero devoted to business which required no immediate re ference to, or communication with the Secretary of State, and he believed that the concentration of the public offices which had been so much talked of would not effect the saving, or be in the end so economical as was generally supposed. While he hoped that the present Government would continue the arrangements for the erection of at least a Foreign-office, and another, say for the War De partment, he trusted they would not commit themselves to any plan for creating a great portion of Westminster, and then come to the house with estimates to the extent of a million, which, in all probability, would be doubled before the works were finished. (Hear, hear.) In fact, it appeared to him that many of the plans which had been suggested on this subject had less tho economy of the public purse in view than to give the civil service a more imposing character, an l to embellish that part of the town at the expense of the country. (Hear.) After some remarks from Mr. SPOONER, Mr. BAXTER said the sums allotted to the support of the Scottish abbeys were paid by agreement on the abbeys themselves being handed over to the Government. Mr. SLA.NE Y . defended the expenditure upon these old monuments, because of the gratification which visits to them gave the public at large, to whom they belonged. The vote was then agreed to. On the next vote of 26,9261., for furniture for public dices and apartments, Mr. WYSE called attention to the fact, that within the last seven years the house had voted the large sum of 187,0001. for furniture. They voted 36,0)0/Jest year, and now this year again they were called upon to vote nearly 27,0001. more. (Hear.) Our public offices had a voracity for the consumption of furniture which was perfectly as tounding. Surely they would grumble if, as private gen tleman, that item in their outlay amounted to anything like the same proportion. Furniture should last at least ten years, and although repairs might be required the sum for:that purpose could not b 3 anything like that annually demanded under this head. Mr. HAMILTON said the estimate for the ensuing year was based upon that of last year, and he could assure the hon. gentleman that the utmost economy would be exer cised under this head. Mr. WILLIAMS quite concurred in the views as to the extravagance of this vote. Mr. TITE said he found under the head of the Museum of Geology, Gower-street School, and South Kensington Museum, an item of 5,7051. How much did tho latter take t He could not help thinking that the vote was lumped in order to cover an excessive vote to the South KenaingLun Mnawnm. Lord J. MANNERS said that, as nearly as could be ascertained, the portion of the vote for South Kensington Museum was 4,0001. Mr. SLANEY considered the money was most usefully and beneficially spent, and After some further conversation the vote was agreed to. On the next vote of 99,667/. for keeping in repair the royal parks and plantations, Mr. WILLIAMS said it appeared to him that a great deal too much money was expended in this department, while, on the other hand, he thought that so much was not made of them as might be done. A considerable profit might be made in the sale of plants. Mr. ADAMS urged upon the noble lord the necessity of providing additional greenhouse accommodation at Kew Gardens. Those gardens were not for the exclusive use of any class. They were resorted to last year by upwards of 400,000 visitors of all classes, whose good conduct and careful protection of the property in the gardens entitled them to the highest credit. It was painful to see many of the plants dying for want of proper protection. In answer to Mr. Williams, he might mention that 10,000 trees had been taken from the nurseries in the Royal Parks for Bat tersea Park, Victoria Park, and other places, all of which would have had to be paid for otherwise. Mr. SLANEY highly approved of the money expended on the parks and gardens, as conducive not only to the health, but the moral well-being of the community. He wished also to call the attention of the noble lord (Lord J. Manners) to the fact that there were few benches in Vic toria Park—a place frequented chiefly by the working classes—and hoped that this additional accommodation would be provided for them. (Hear.) Mr. HAMILTON Faid much credit was due to the late Chief Commissioner, and that every endeavour would be made to carry out the very proper arrangements which he had commenced and contemplated. Mr. SPOONER thought the house was rather lavish in expending money on metropolitan parks, while the people of Birmingham, and other localities, were left to defray expenses of a similar uatnre out of their own pockets. Lord J. MANNERS thought the metropolis had a de cided claim on the public at large ; but, in future, the ex penses incurred for public parks in the neighbourhood of London would be comparatively small ; and that the bene fits derivable from them would be of such a general nature that the people residing at a distance would have no just ground of complaint. (Hear, hear.) Colonel SYKES said the Kew Gardens were a botanical school of instruction, established for the benefit of the whole country, and ought to be supported by the country at large. (Hear, hear.) The vote was then agreed to. 160,7981. was then proposed for the new Houses of Par liament. Lord J. MANNERS said that sum did not include the expense of the bell, nor the cost incurred in finishing the face of the clock-tower. 8,0001. more would be required, and he hoped the home would grant it. Mr. WILLIAMS wished to know how soon this work would be completed. (Hear.) Mr. HANKEY complained that the hands of the new clock wore not sufficiently visible. Mr. TITE said ho was quite willing to vote for the ad ditional 8,0001. for the unfinished clock and entrance arch to Palace-yard ; but ho thought the beautiful exterior de corations would be soon damaged by the two kitchen chimneys. He hoped some means would be taken to make those chimneys COR3110:10 their own smoke, and thereby prevent them from defacing the beautiful exterior embel lishments of the new houses. Lord J. MANNERS said steps were being taken to re medy the evil complained of. (Hear.) Mr. SPOONER thought the sum asked for was very large, and hoped it would be the last vote asked for. Colonel SYKES inquired whether any arrangements had been made for the consumption of smoke. Lord J. MANNERS was not aware that anything of the kind had yet been-done. Sir B. HALL wished to know whether Sir C. Barry had furnished plans and specifications of the work remaining to be done, and estimates of the expense, and whether the present vote would cover all future expendi ture. Lord J. MANNERS said he had been furnished with such specifications and estimates, but had not had an op portunity of laying them on the table of the house before the recess. He would now do so, and next week they would be printed and in the hands of hon. members. The noble lord then laid the specifications on the table. Mr. WISE wished to know what was the total sum ex pended on the new houses, from'the commencement to the present time. Lord J. MANNERS was unable to state the total amount, but the printed estimates would show the sum expended since the last Parliamentary vote. The vote was then agreed to. 3 ),0001. was then proposed for the War Department. Mr. BRISCOE hoped that ample accommodation would be afforded hereafter in one building for all the officers of that department. After a few words from Lord J. MANNERS, the vote was agreed to. A grout of 31,000/. wad v.,ted to defray the expensee connected with Probate Registiies, and another of 4,7001. to meet the expense of British Embassy houses abroad. On the motion that 170,0001. be granted to defray the expense of harbours of refuge. Mr. BAXTER said there existed out of doors a wish that the House of Commons would look more closely into the question of the utility of those harbours. Ile should like to know what the works at Dover had already cost, and what further sure they wore likely to cost. As to the 60,000/. for the harbour at Alderney, ho was told that that harbour would never be any great advantage to the com merce of this country. Ho wished to elicit the views of the Government as to harbours of refuge, for he had heard a great deal said as to the e xtravagance of which the House of Commons had been guilty in reference to this matter. Beyond this he had heard it stated that there was a great deal of jobbery in reference to the subject, and that schemes wore being hatched which it would become them to keep a jealous eye on. Ho thought that it would ill become them at this time to sanction any new vote on this subject, which would involve considerable expenditure, and which expenditure he thought would be attended with no commensurate- benefit. - He-had heard it said that it would be a great thing to have harbours of refuge on the north coast of England, the north-east coast of Ireland, and also on the coast of Scotland, but what he wished to call attention to was this, that it was doubtful whether the advantages would be so great as to justify their expending a million or a half or a quarter of a million on these har bours. A committee was now sitting upon this subject and should they take any course committing the country to begin other works as extensive as those at Dover, Holy head, Portland, and Alderney, it would be the duty of the House of Commons to step in and prevent what he thought would be a profuse and wasteful expenditure of the public money. He admitted that when the finances were in an easy condition the taxes might be legitimately applied to improving commercial harbours, but ho believed that it would be better to grant small sums in aid of harbours already in existence, and which might be converted into harbours of refuge for all practicable purposes, instead of expending half or a quarter of a million in one particular place. Half-a-dozen grants of 10,000/. or 20,000/. would do more to promote commerce than the expenditure of an enormous sum of money at one particular place. Mr. WILSON was surprised that his hon. friend had taken this opportunity of saying what he had said, when he knew that there was a committee still sitting, and on the eve of making a report, which would be on the table in a few days. Ho was surprised that his friend should endeavour to prejudge that question when the committee upstairs had been sitting so long, and without seeing the evidence which had been laid before them. He thought it a most unfair mode of proceeding, and he would not follow the example of his hon. friend by discussing the matter. He was convinced that the evidence would dis close a state of things which could not be allowed to con tinue. He was quite aware that gentlemen who had in their minds particular localities, or a particular class of works, might wish to forestall the report of the committee ; but that was one of the inconveniences which must attend a matter of this kind. He could only say that he believed it was the intention of the committee to report in a very few days, and, as at present advised, he had no doubt that a motion would be submitted to the house during the pre sent session based on that report. His hon, friend would have ample opportunity, with full materials, for judging of the report on that occasion. The present vote was for 170,0001., which showed a decrease on the vote of last year of 51,0001., and it was stated that "this sum, with the balance remaining unissued of last year's vote, will be sufficient for the service of 1858-9." The vote, therefore, did not represent the expenditure of the year. A mere reduction of the amount of the vote would not lead to re• duced expenditure, and he wished to know how much the expenditure for the ensuing year would be. Mr. G. A. HAMILTON said if the hon. gentleman sup posed that all the information the house had was contained in the vote, he was not surprised at his requiring further details, but there was a note referring to a parliamentary paper in which he would find the fullest particulars. As to Dover harbour, the total estimate was 650,0001., and the sum already voted 346,000/. The vote now required was 34,0001., leaving for subsequent votes 270,0001. Then followed a detail of the work which had been done. As to the hon. gentleman's question, the sum appropriated to Dover last year was 34,000/., which had been expended. For 3 Alderney the sum voted was 100,0)01., of which there was expended 87,0001., leaving to be expended 13,0 0/. in addition to the 60,000/. now asked. For Portland there was voted last year 90,000/., of which 83,231/. had been expended, leaving to be expended, nearly 2,000/. in addition to the 76,0001. Sir C. NAPIER said perhaps it would have been better for his hon. friend to have waited for the harbour of re fuge report ; but for his part he wanted to advert to the harbour at Dover. He had never been able to find out the use of it. (Hear.) In 1812 and 1843 he had resisted the vote, and showed that to take Dover as the site for such a work would be totally and entirely useless for trading vessels going from east to west, for they could not get into the harbour. He thought that the sooner a stop was put to the matter the better, for the cost was just so much money thrown away. This was on th 3 supposition that the har bour was for commercial purposes, but if the Government would show that it was for the defence of the country, he, for one, would veto any amount they liked. As to • the Alderney harbour, would any hon. gentleman tell him the use of it as a harbour of refuge ? It would be indeed use ful for French vessels, but not for English. Even if it was for defence what was the use of it? Originally the use of Alderney was that you could from thence look into Cher bourg, but now you could not do so. The other night he had called attention to the defences of this country, and ho trusted that no delay would occur in nominating the commission he had moved for. He did not think that the Government should lose a single day about it. . Mr. DUFF must say that he really did not know any way in which the money of the country could be better expended than in making a few national deep water har bours of refuge for the commercial navy, and also for de fence. He hoped, however, that the Government would not neglect the suggestion of the hon, member for Mon trose (Mr. Baxter) as to expending small sums on other harbours. Mr. MONSELL did not think that the papers referred to by the Secretary for the Treasury were calculated to de crease their desire to know a little more as to the harbour at Alderney. The statement of the gallant admiral (Sir C. Napier) was that the harbour would be of no use— (hear, hear, from Sir C. Napier)—and what was to be the cost of it ? hy, something more than 1,300,000/. There had been expended already 600,000/. odd, and there remained to be expended 703,000/, though the original estimate was only 6,0,00 J/. It appeared to him to be not too late to inquire whether they could not limit their expenditure to the ori ginal plan, that which was to have cost 600,000/. After a few words from Colonel SYKES and Mr. G. A. HAMILTON, Mr. BAXTER said he understood that it was ar ranged that the vote for .Alderney should be reduced by 30,0001. The CHAIRMAN put the question, that the Alderney vote should be reduced by 30,0001. Sir C. NAPIER wished to ask if any additional de fences were being built at Alderney ? Colonel SYKES recommended the Secretary of the Treasury to make a calculation respecting Dover pier. At present it got on at the rate of 38 feet a quarter, and an expense of 35,000/. a-year. His opinion was that it would cost nearer six millions than 600,00 N , and that neither the next generation nor the one after would ever see it finished_ Mr. M. GIBSON said it was mere fallacy to call Alder may a harbour of refuge. It was intended as a rendezvous for men-of-war, and so chosen as being near the French coast. He did not see the use of it, and he feared that in case of war it would be a source of weakness rather than of strength. Still if he was to vote 30,000/. he did not see why he should not vote 60,000/. and therefore if he voted with the hon. member for Montrose he must understand that he had some clear and intelligible chance of retrench ment in view. As a general question he was in favour of expenditure for harbours of refuge. With respect to Alderney, he had great doubts as to the expediency of ex penditure there. Sir J. PAKINGTON hoped that after the discussion that had taken place the hon. member for Montrose would not press his motion. He was ready to admit that Alderney was not intended as a harbour of refuge, but as a naval rendezvous. There might be a difference as to the ex pediency of its construction, but the highest military au• thorities, including the late Duke of Wellington, had de clared for the necessity of the works I here. The works which were now voted for (the Alderney) had already been commenced, and must be completed, but next year the go vernment would be prepared with estimates of their own, opinion,a n d would oughtbe t able be done to st awtiet h definitiv elyAlderney. what, in their Mr. RIDLEY supported the vote. Mr. BRISCOE understood that even if these fortifications at Alderney were completed, it would take 5,000 men to gar rison them, and that even with that force it would be impos sible to hold them against a powerful enemy. He would suggest the suspension of the works, which he understood had already been adopted in Jersey. Mr. MONSELL hoped that the hon. member would not press his motion. After one or two further observations, the motion was withdrawn, and the vote was agreed to. 21,0001., Holyhead harbour. An Hox. MEMBER asked when it was expected that Holyhead harbour would be completed ? Mr. GLYN suggested that the harbour should be made a place of call for the American steamers. In answer to some observations by Mr. W. WILLIAMS, Mr. HAMILTON said that on the death of Mr. Rendell by the direction of the late Government a new estimate was made by Mr. Hawkshaw, which was that under dis cussion. Mr. WILSON said that in justice to the memory of Mr. Handell it should be stated that his estimate of 628,000/., was frame on a far smaller proportion with regard to the worke, and it was in consequence of the repeated exten: siens of the plan that the increase in the estimates had oc curred. Mr. WILLIAMS could assure the hon. gentleman that he was mistaken. The estimate was made by Mr. Rendell at 62 4 ,000/. for the same plan which Mr. Rennie and other engineers estimated at 1,700,0001. The vote was then agreed to. On the next vote, 1,0491. for the pay, establishment, and necessary works at Portpatrick Harbour, Mr. WILLIAMS said that it was now 14 years since as surance was given that there would be no further demand for this work. The vote was agreed to; as were 60,651/, for erection, repair, and maintenance of the several publio buildings in charge of the department of the Commissioners of Publio Works in Ireland. 18,506/. for the works and establishment of Kingstown Harbour. A sum of 88,110/. for the expenses of the two houses of Parliament was proposed. Mr. WISE thought the details of the expenditure of the House of Lords should be given. Sir G- C. LEWIS said it was impossible to give them. Mr. WILLIAMS thought the vote ought not to bo passed without such details. The vote was agreed to. A emu of 51,000'. for the expenses of the Treasury was voted. The following votes were agreed to :- 21,799/., Home Department. 61,9001., Foreign-office and Queen's messengers. 29,174/., Colonial-office: 67,817 e, Privy Council. A sum of 2,720/. for the expenses of the Lord Privy Seal's Office. Mr. WISE said a committee had recomended that the office of Lord Privy Seal should be abolished. It was an office that was quite useless, and was commonly lad by absentees. He trusted Government would consider this subject, and see if the office could not be transfer red to some other department. He moved the rejection of the vote. The committee divided— For the vote Against it Majority 31 -40 Tho next vote was 6,2551. for the office of Comptroller- General of the Exchequer. On the vote of 26,5751. for the office of Commissioners of Works and Public Buildings, Mr. B. HOPE complained of the working of the system in the office of the Board of Works, and more particuhrly of the failure in the erection of new public buildings, owing to the impolitic interference of the Treasury under the late Adminstration. Mr. WILSON said that th; House of Commons, and not the Treasury, was respons i ble for i nterfer i ng with the free action of competition for the erection of these buildings. Mr. TITE expressed a hope that a select committee might be appointed to inquire into the whole subject of the Competitive system as regarded our public offices. Mr. W..WILLIAMS remarked upon an increase in the salary of the private secretary to the Chief Commissioner of Works, made avowedly on the ground that the chief was a Cabinet Minister. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the duties of a private secretary to a Cabinet Minister were not confined to the mere functions of the office of Works. WILLIAMS objected on principle to enlarging the salary, simply . because a c_hange might take place in the status of the chief. The vote was agreed to. 21,009/. for the public record and State paper-office. On the vote of 253,0521. for the salaries, &c., on account of the poor-laws, Mr. M'MAHON proposed to reduce the vote by 130,0001. the item for the salaries, &c., of schoolmasters and school mistresses. These salaries were already paid out of the local rates, and they were again levied by the Imperiel Exchequer. Mr. HAMILTON warned the house against re-opening the settlement of 1846, by which the consolidated fund bore half of the expense of the Irish constabulary. Mr. WHITE supported, and Mr. BAGWELL opposed, the reduction. Mr. BOUVERIE believed that the salaries of the school masters and schoolmistresses, under the present system, were much larger than they could bo if drawn from the consolidated oli( A la l fund. ON contended that the education of pauper children was a national, not a local question. Mr. I. BUTT thought it would be much better to raise the question on the vote for medical relief. Mr. M'MAHON withdrew the motion, but moved the reduction of the vote by 100,000/., the salaries of the me dical officers in the several poor-law districts. Sir G. C. LEWIS said that the settlement of 1846 was a complex one, and he did not think it could be disturbed in detail. He believed that Sir Robert Peel meant a fair settlement when he relieved the landowners of certain bur dens in consideration of the repeal of the corn-laws. Mr. W. MILES denied that Sir Robert Peel meant this in the way of compensation. If honourable gentlemen would take the trouble to investigate the question, they would find how much more the landed interest was bur dened more than any other class. By the repeal of the corn laws many small far mars had been reduced to labour. era in this country, or were poor settlers in a foreign coun try. Ho admitted, however, that of late legislation had been in favour of the farmer. He bad no objection to enter into the question of the re-adjustment of local bur dens, but he thought that was not the proper time for doing so. His wish was that eventually taxation would be equal. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not see the distinction that bad been drawn by some hon. mem bers between medical officers and schoolmasters, and the remuneration paid to the same. The transfer of this and other charges, both in England and Ireland, from the local rates to the Consolidated Fund, was not proposed by the late Sir R. Peel as a compensation for the repeal of the corn laws. - The course recommended by the hon. and learned gentleman was not a wise one, and he asked the committee to negative the motion. He did not think this a fitting opportunity for discussing the readjustment of local taxa tion. Mr. WILSON said these charges on the Consolidated Fund were proposed by the late Sir R. Peel in mitigation rather than compensation for the repeal of the corn laws. He hoped the hon. gentleman would not come to an issue on this important subject on so narrow a point of view. Mr. I. BUTT considered this a very simple question. The same plan that was adopted in England ought to be applied to Ireland, and not compel Ireland to pay its own charges for medical officers, and a share of those charges for England. It was not just or honest to Ireland, and unless the Government would give the committee a pledge of considering the question with a view to its alteration, he would vote for the amendment. After some remarks from Lord JOHN BROWNE and Mr. A yRTON, • Mr: WMAHON having replied, The committee divided, and the numbers were— For the motioa EO Against it Majority ... —7O On the vote being put, Sir H. WILLOUGHB Y suggested an amendment of the laws to get rid of the Poor-Law Commissioners, which would effect a great saving. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved vote of 50,0001. on account, for defraying the charges of I fr Bs om B-9 S . ir H. WILLOUGHBY, civ A il ft o e o r n s ti o n na g e e neies f remarksor The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the excess of expenditure of last year arose from exceptional circumstances, arising out of the commission to China, the Paris Conference, &c. All he asked for was a sum on sod count, and he hoped the committee would allow this vote to pass. Sir. D. MICHELL objected to so large an amount be ing taken on account, and moved that the chairman report progress. Sir G. C. LEWIS hoped the hon. gentleman would not persist in his motion, but allow the vote to be passed. Ample opportnuity would be given for discussing the question when the remainder of the question came before the house. The motion was withdrawn, and the vote agreed to. The CHAIRMAN reported progress and the house re• sumed. The other orders were disposed of, and the house ad' journed at ten minutes to one o'clock. COUntry Markets. LIVERPOOL, MAY 28. There was a slender attendance of buyers this morning. The only change in price was a reduction from Tuesday 01 6d per qr. on white Indian corn, the best selling at 340 t°, 348 6d per 4801bs. ; yellow corn Gd hi g h er. Wheat an" flour were both held with much firmness, and, if ant change, the common sorts were co n s id ere d a b ou t a psall per bu shel dearer. Oats, barley, beans, and peas all Or ported recent values. WAKEFIELD—Mey 28. There was a good supply of wheat. The demand Age limited, but last week's prices were nearly maintaine d ' No change in other articles. AVERAGES FOR till WERE ENDING MAT 24, 1858. Wheat 1514 quarters, at 44s 10d Barley 7l OS 36s 114c1 Oats • —a 0d 50 „ 42s 4id —a Oct Be - alas Peas EXETER—MAY 28. CORN.—Wheat, 5s 9d to 6s Od ; barley, 4s to 4s 3d ; grinding do., Os Od to Os Od. Oats, 2s 6d to 2s Od' Beans, Os Od to 0 Od. Peas, 00s Od to 00s Od. nouit.—Fine, 31s Od to 32s Od ; seconds, 29s Od to 3 0 ' Od per sack. CATTLE. —There was a large-supply of bullocks. beef, from 9s Od to 108 Od per score ; inferior, 70 to score ; fat calves, 5d to kid per lb • barrenners, Os Od to Od. per score ; cows and calves, 12/. to 181. to ; butchol7. calves, Od to 7d per lb., rearing calves —s to —0 ° 84 0 ,1 sheep, ewes and lambs, 21:5s to 21. 15s per couple; ewe 5 ,,,,,, to bid; wethers, 7d —d; lambs, lid to 0 per lb. 111 5; large size, —s to —5; second size, —s to —s ' • slips, to —s ; suckers, —s to — s . R oug h fat, 44d Per Pork carcases from 7s 6d to 8s 6d per score. BRISTOL SUGAR—MAT 28. The market opened this week with a very good dee d t both from refiners and grocers , an d a b ou t 650 hhds -$ India found buyers at prices fully equa l t o those claret() before the holidays. During the last day or two, owing.... the flatness which prevails in Lo n d on , th ere h as bee n ther less animation, but prices are about supported. only floating cargo reported is one from Manilla, 1 00 j 7di, at 24s 4d, floating terms. The refined market ote . , 00 . with a good demand for all descriptions. Rum 0 0104° rather quiet, COURSE OF EXCHANGE.—YESTERDAL Am5terdam............ 11 1534 Gibraltar •••• •• rbVii Ditto, three months .. 11 17% Leghorn .............• 15 0 Rotterdam ............ 11 17% Genoa ........ •• .. Antwerp .............. 25 32% Milan Brussels 25 32% Venice " aamburgh ..:......... 13 7% Naples ........ r 4 12S Altona ................ • • Palermo .... 25 10 Messina ... ••• hi * Do. three months .. • . 25 32!4 Lisbo n .. Marseilles ............ 25 3234 Oporto .... •• 511 b i. •••••••••• Bourdeaux ..•• Rio Janeiro Frankfort-on-Maine .... 118% Buenos Ayres Berlin ..•• •• ...• .• •• •• 'New York,6o days' sight Vienna ..........•• .... 10 30 Philadelphia •••••••••• Trieste... lO 31 pawn or suLmos, PEI 9 Petersburg ............ 35!4 Foreign Gold In Bars £ 3 1 0 0 0 Madrid 49% Portugal Gold Coin 0 0 0 Cadiz .........•• 49% Mexican Dollars .... 0 0 0 Barcelona ............ New Dollars 2 5 Seville.. COAL MARS} Prices of Coals per ton at s. d.I Davison's West Hartley 15 9 Benton West Hartley.ls 0 Huddle W. Hartley l5 9, Bebside W. Hartley' 15 9 Grey's West Hartley l5 0 Hastings Hartley 15 9 Howard's West Hartley Netherton 15 9 Thad(' Moor l2 Tanfleld Moor Butes 12 3 Wylam Walker Primrose l2 6 M.-.-MAY 28. the olose of the market W~llsend; 4 Gosforth l4 Wharnelitre l l4 9 Braddyll ........... 5 ; Riddell 14 s Bell 1 1 iCeH . oe 6 6 ................ 1; Acornelose .. . ........... 1, 0 Benson—. ....... ......... 6 Runwiek ............... ... 1 ' 0 Hilda .................. . Eden rh P4 ll3 9 ll's ................................. 1 1 4 Whitworth ........... . .... 55 ; sold, 50. -ote Wsllsenci, &o. Framwellgate l4 Hough Hall 14 Ships at market BIRTHS. lit * ANDEBSON--At 5, Craven-hill-gardens, Bayswater, W. D. Anderson, of a daughter. . • 1, Roert CAZENOVE—On. the 27th illßt., at Woodehuro— _., t ot Rent, the wife of the Rev. Arthur Cazenove, -00-' a son. EYRE- On the 26th inst., at Nnenham Murree, ° , o . ° Po i the wife of Edward John Eyre, Esq., Lieut.-G°C of St. Vincent, of a daughter. MARRIAGES. god ' MORELAND—FIORWOOD —On the 27th inst., at 'st . j sore . Stoke Newington, Richard, only son ofßicharudbier land, Esq., of Stoke Newington, to Ann, third (16,1' of Matthew Horwood, Esq., of the same pled' OWEN — qt inst., . 1 " SAUNDERS—On the 27th at op - Church, Old-street, Hugh Owen, Esq. , of the ! -VW Trade, to Emma, youngest daughte r o f the latu - Saunders, Esq., of Southampton. DEATHS, BARNARD —On the 27th inst., at Harlow gill , John Barnard, aged 83. BAZALGETTE—On the 26th inst., at Torquay , Baaalgette, Esq., of Mortimer Lodge, Berks. i . Ar e „.1 311 COLLINGS —On the 26th inst., at Southampton, wi i - e tt V' landed the previous day from . Malta, Joseph l3° ,l" ° 37. t • Collings, •Esq , Auditor-General iu Malt a, age of ppt GREEN- On the 26th ins t., M r. J ohn S. G reen, 6 01 land-house, St. John's-wood, aged 38. •,, s o-, . 4 . LYONS On the 28th inst. at the residenco of I 'v -i- ight' ° " Finsbury.square, Jacob' Ly o ns, Esq., of 1, --- place, aged 53. Moss—On the 26th inst , William Robert, onlY son of Alfred Moss, ( . )f . Lyndhurst-road, Peckhav3l Sise-lane, Bucklersbury, solicitor. ido ol9 RonEums—On Thursday, the 27th inst., at his olf ° No. 17, Spring-gardens, Whitehall, Eiizabetb, i'gprinc of Mr. Thomas Roberts, solicitor, of No. ircp ta lbst lfr gardens, Whitehall, and " The Boundaries,' -" Surrey. ' --- ---- (4 1 - 0 ,10 I L O NDON • Printed and Published by MUB O DO Na of No. 112 , Strand , Printer , at T he Sun 6.sia 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, ill th . ii) of Middlesex, Saturday, May 29, 1858.1 N° . atetant-E held at t days, " Establlal 12 111 hi Itttendtns is rque v June 4th PavY elt tOrWardei TRI .and relyinne flex *ltut u eral L and Media the said I a, Persons f!? notes Catalog Yard. TUE Lon Ihd Irelan the 15th With such. litaiestrs tie 5 .4 dlrit aid at of IleY of trc °Z. Z I agent an befrtie an ., milFt b — gned by th e pe o n e?fee of the Cols Dep TIRE I. and Irgiao Ce loth Jigfeat u t with ne and •O rd, th e lin WI CO SO when to r ent/tinder ii 1441 7 tender anyporti f orweig Tenders n Their Lori dens are opei thereof only net contract The Cocoa tendering ar S ailiPles of eas than 21b, ' t iled by th The g arace arnPl - requested ts haYe No tender tsaidr the t e of & ve rpm, _ Th e ul attentioncundli Po ol and Br is t No tender ` O I ItY of treaty 4,,1a agent ra e t , as t w?!lritnicate .4•1 5 1, tend ii;toear in tt .st al so b „ I MET . 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