The Sun. — London, England, 1860-03-24 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDA.Y.) The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack st five o'clock. ROYAL COMMISSION, The Royal assent was given to the following bills : Consolidated Fund (L 4,500,000), Probate and Administra tion (India), Valuation of Rateable Property, Medical Acts Amendment, Packet Service (Transfer of Contract), Admi nistration of Poison, Blackburn Gas, and West Middlesex Water. LAW AND EQUITY. The LORD CHANCELLOR laid on the table a paper containing very valuable information which had been sup plied to him by the Master of the Rolls and the Vice-Chan cellor calculated to throw light upon the bill whic h he had brought is for the assimilating law and equity. He moved that the paper be presented. PRIVATE BILLS. The Droylsden Gas Bill was read a second time. The following bills were read a third time and passed : Torquay Gas, Eau Brink Drainage, Kilkenny Junction Railway, and Waterford and Limerick Railway. REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE. The Earl of AIRLIE moved for returns of the number of persons charged with inhabited house duty, and quell& I to vote at the election of members to serve in Parliament, within each of the counties and Parliamentary boroughs of England and Wales, also a return of the number of persons entitled to vote for members.of Parliament in respect of houses of the rentals of £lO and under £l5, Xl5 and under £2O, £2O and under £25, £25 and under £5O, £5O and under £lOO, and upwards in each of the said boroughs, and also a return of the number of householders in each borough inhabiting houses of the gross rentals respectively o f £6 and under £7, £7 and under £B, £8 and under £9, £9 and under £lO, £lO and under £l5, distinguishing the numbers in each class not rated to the poor, of all rated only through the landlord end exempted from payment of rates from poverty and other causes. The noble lord said he had intended to have moved for a number of returns with respect to the income-tax, but he had been Informed from the authorities that it would be impos sible to make such a document. He did not think that there could be any objection to his motion, the more especially u the subject of the amending the nipresentation of the people in Parliament was at present under the consideration of Parliament. The noble Earl then proceeded at length to touch upon the points of the financial scheme of the Go vernment, but owing to the private conversation that was carried on by the majority of the peers present, he was very indistinctly heard in the gallery. [Shortly before six o'clock the Duke of NEWCASTLE in terrupted. the' noble lord, making some remark relative t the Lord Chancellor, immediately after which the noble and learned lord quitted ins mut and lat, Enr,' Chelmsford taking the Lord Chancellor's vacant seat] -- TIM cause 'of the Lord Chancellor leading the house, i Was said, was owing-to a message received by his lord snip or me illness or me baroness btratheden. , The 'Duke of NEWCASTLE said there was no objectio to the return.. Lord CHELMSFORD then put; be motion, which w agreed to. SAVOY; Lord PANMURE drew *he attention of the house to the system of nomotion by the sale and purchase of commis sions in therarmy. That system had exist _1 from the very rise of our standing army, and it was introduced to enable those who had risen to rank to retire, and thus open an entrance to others, and thus keep up a stream of promo tion, and prevent the army from being depressed by a set of senile officers. (Hear.) With that view it was that the system had been maintained. It had worked impartially, and produced to the British army a set of officers superior to that of every other army in Europe. No doubt there were blots and defects in the system, and one of thon was that the regulation price was constantly exceeded. It had been found impossible to eradicate the evil ; but it was an exaggeration to call it a scandal. (Hear, hear.) Successive ,Secretaries of State and Commanders-in-Chief had con -nived at it; and all that could be said of it was, that it was inconvenient. (Hear.) It was said that the system of sell ing out made the army a sort of plaything ; but he was surprised that any one should call that en objecaon to the system. It was an argument in its favour, _for surely it was an advantage to the country that the youth of its aris tocracy should spend a certain number of years in the army, and then go back to their counties well trained and fit to command militia or volunteer regiments. (Hear.) It was said that the system stopped promotion ; but that was a complete mistake, for it enabled officers to get quicker pro motion than they could obtain by seniority. It was to be re gretted, therefore, that the Government intended to inter fere with the system on the strength of the report of a com mission, a repot t not cars :ed unanimously, but by a majority of six to four. Those four were most distinguished men— one of them, Gen. Williams, never having purchased a step. I Surely the protest of these four commissioners should have ( deterred the Government from taking so rash a course. It appeared that the limatenant-colone'qhip was not any lengc r 'to be purchased. But how then was it to be given up or ob tained when the lieutenant-colonel became too old for ser vice? It was recommended that he should be succeeded by one of the majors, to be chosen by the Comulander4n-Chief. "Any plan more calculated to disturb the harmony of the - army could not be devised: The senior major of the regi -Mont might not be the best major in the army; and if the "Commander-in-Chief were to choose another for the colonel `ship, he would be stamped from that time as incompetent, Or the other officers, resenting the introduction of a arangcr, '*ould hardly bo able to obey the new colonel with cordiality. 1,, .!ear.) It wes said, why not put the army on the same foot OS the nary? There was, it was true, no put chase in the nary,but the navalsystem was entirely ditfere,nt . . (Hear.) Tito variou s c l asses of officers on board ship w ere quite dis tinct, whereas all the officers of a re(-:went 'funned one family; and if a system of invidious selection were to be Introduce& this family harmony would be destroyed. Let Pie Goventn'ent cur sider the: points before they gave ellitertO reii6t tof the commission by a warrant front the C rown . (I fear.) .4tio, consider the Ununeial part of the IWati'n li eutena n t- eelomlappii ti d to sell out, ,When h • wasi,jE„ be p have l the r egu l ation I price rh , m 4,2 ven with‘. tlautiTeha,uhoowutsebau4.puncl -m the ore for his, ccOnnspons, i (7 9r: pr im d er ,i32, Chief and if he were to be deprived of that ' ;of robPerY. (Hear.) Therefore the • would be a, I# l se l 3 repaid Cie slims they had really Paid fat: 66fer0 roc t_ • N irhole cif the army htictfUli notice tfietr Commiss-'4o;lntil the of the new syst .T) E a RE y • E I . P9N said it was the nobl e baron himself wb.o appointed the commission to inquire The Karquitt of CLANItICARDE rose to ask whether the Government had received any communication from the Sardinian or French Government of the recent vote of the municipality of Nice, relative to the cession of that t , wn and county to France ? The noble marquis said he did not desire to extract from the Government any premature ex pression of opinion, bat simply to ask a question as to the facts. It was for the Government to consider, - at the pre sent serious crisis, what course they should pursue, and Parliament world ere long have to corsider it. It would be ill-judged to make any blustering declarations, and it was to be regretted that people should use such language as that England would not gd to wr' for anything. That language has had a very bad effect abroad; and foreign Governments ought to bear in mind that England would do her duty at any tin*, regardless of consequences— (hear, hear)—butthat if withany country we wereto main tain cordial relations, it could only be by a sincerely good understanding between them, and by a loyal and truthful frankness. (Hear.) Now, some weeks ago there appeared in a foreign newspaper an announcement that communica tier s were going on between the Governments of France and Sardinia for the cession of Savoy and Nice, and papers -were laid before Parliament showing that such a transac tion was in contemplation. But 6.eat pains were taken by the French Government to impress upon the public and upon our Government the notion that these negotiations were dependent on three conditions—that the charge was only to be made with the full consent of the King Sar dinia ; by the free c insent of the population ; and not until previous communications with the Gie•tt Powers. (Hear, hear.) Upon two of these three conditions he led nothing to say, and he desired or 'y to speak upon the second, as to the free e nesent, of the population. He threw out of the question Savoy, upon which it would be impossible to touch without going into those questions on which he would not raise a premature debate. He confined himself entirely to the question as to Nice. He need say nothing as to the soundness of the principle that the transfer. of ellegiance should be founded on the goodwill of the populations concerned. There was no more abominable doctr;ne connected with what was called despo tism or divine right, than the idea that any people could belong to a prince, and be handed over by one sovereign to another. The French and Sardinian Governments them selves had rested their conduct upon the validity of the popular will. It had, however, been stated, and seem: dto . be un fait accompli, that the county of Nice was to be trans ferred to France. And so far was it from the truth that this was the popular will, that it was notorious that the anunicipality. of Nice lately, after long deliberation, had re -solved against it, and had sent a deputation to the King of ' Sardinia representing their desire to remain under his sove reignty, or, if they were to be separated from it, then to be erected into a neutral State, Which their territory was very well adapted to become. (Hear.) There were man; reasons for that course, which might be matter for negotiation. 'But what he was most anxious ab6ut was, that there should be frankness and fair dealing, and an adherence to representa tions or promises, or declarations of intention, on the part of one great Government towards another. (Hear.) Yet the French Emperor had the other day, in his address to the deputies from Savoy, thought fit to mix up the subject - of Nice (though there Were no deputies front Nice), cud said :—" In f nit, it is neither by insr-rection nor violence that Savoy and Nice will be reunited to France, but by the free consent of the legitimate sovereign, saeported by the popular voice." Now he (the Marquis of Cianricerde) de dared that this was not a correct representation of the state of things. (Hear, hear.) He said so not only on account of the vote of the municipality of Nice (an elective body, legally representing the territory), but on the authority of communications he hadxeceived from Nice. There was to have been a general popular vote after that of the munici pality. The French Government ha Jno occasion to declare any intention upon the subject ; but having made such a declaration or intention (not to call it a promise or a pledge), -it ought not to be lightly set at nought. And if it were in tended to m&-itain the peace of Europe, and to preserve our goodwill and friendship, there must be cordial, sincere, end frank relations between the two countries, and stahments must not bo made notoriously cont-ary to the ti eth. There fore it was that he asked the - Government whether they had received any cornmvytication of the expression of opinion by the population of Nic 3 ? Lord WODEHOUSE—The que,..k a of which the noble marquis gave notice was, whether we had received any communication on this subject ft JM the French or Sardinian Government; and the answer is, that we have not received any communication from the French or Sardinian Govern ment on the subject. My lords, the noble marquis said ho should not touch upon the pave and delicate question as to the cession of Savoy and Nice; rtll am certa'n that it is better that I should conqae myself to s'-nply answering the inquiry of the noble marquis, without entering into a ques tion which is under the serious cor sideration of the Govern , ment. (Hear.) SALE OF COMMISSIONS IN THE ARMY. into the whole ques':on. (Hear.) The Government 'slid not intend to take any steps for the entire abolition of the system of purchase in the army. It could not be so dealt with as some proposed, without the expenditure of large sums by way of compensation. (Hear.) Therefore the Government entertained no such intention as the noble lord appeared to suppose. The question was whether it was not necessary to provide some remedy for admitted evils of the system. (Hear.) One of these evils was the practice of receiving and paying large sums for commissions above the regulation prices. This practice was general if not uni versal ; but it was in direct contravention of the law. An Act of Parliament existed denouncing penalties against it, the offender being liable to be cashiered. That act was called to the attention of officers by the army regulations, and had very lately been acted upon by an indictment in the Queen's Bench, on which the parties had been convicted and imprisoned. Therefore the officers who followed this practice well knew it was illegal and illegitimate. Now that was not a system which could be considered satisfactory. And though successive Commanders-in-Chief knew of the practice they had only seemed to acquiesce in it, not because approving of it, but because unable to discover the parties really implicated in any particular transactions. The evil existed, however, and ought to be eradicated. It had been stigmatised as " ruinous" and " mischievous" by the highest military authorities. An order had lately been issued from the Horse Guards reducing the ps:c 3 of cavelry commissions, and this had some effect. The question was one of very great importance. There had taken place lately, in the system of promotion in the army, certain changes, the effect of which was that, whereas before the warrant of 1854, there existed a system of promotion by brevet, under which an officer slowly, but surely, went on step by step. That was altered, and there were, now no means of getting the higher ranks except by serving in certain ranks, regi mental or staff. The question to be considered wrc wnether the plan proposed by the commission was deserving of ap proval. The person whose duty it was to appoint a com manding officer should have the largest field for selection ; and it was of the greatest importance that if an officer was unfit to be promoted the Commander-in-Chief should have the power of passing over him and appointing a more fit officer. The Government was fully convinces of the ne cessity of proceeding with the utmost caution and delibera tion in makibg the proposed change. He believed, how ever, that by this step, instead of dimirishipg, they could add to the efficiency of the army, and remove what ap peared to him to be at present a great blot and scandal upon the army. (Hear.) The Earl of LUCAN hopsi that the Government would consider well before they adopted a step which he believed ould be fatal to the British army. He frankly admitted that the present system of purchase, where a large sum in excess of the regulation price was paid, we sin itself an M it ; but he 'behoved that that evil might be very much dimi nished without altogether ab dishing the system. Sehing aside the money which was paid in excess, no object:on could fairly be made to the system, for the purchase money might be regarded in the light of guarantee, since the officer „tin retiring got back the money, end it we ; for the Com mander-in-Chief to appoint, hie successor. He believed that the system of purchase had woeked admirably, and that none other ha i worked so well. Thera were no regi ments in the world superior to the English ; and, although in foreign regiments the officers might be more scientific, L yet for fidelity and brave' s , no officers could excel t or equal those of the British army. Marshal . Canrobert, on his return room the Crimea, where he had , ample opportunities of judging, said that there was no ' soldier in Europe braver than the English soldier, except the ' English officer. It was intended, nevertheless, to tanner with this system, which had answered so admirably, ana to propose that the system of purchase should be abolished in respect to officers of a higher grade than majors. He had read with great attention the evidence upon wnicb, the report " was founded, end he could not recollect a single opinion ex pressed by any witness of note recommending this change. L He should like to ask the noble earl whether he or his chief had considered the difficulties of working s :out the new sys . t nu, which he believed to 13 impracticable. The noble earl then proceeded to point out the unfair advantages which the Artillery and Guards would enjoy over the cavalry and line regiments, if the proposed change was ersTied out. If a major was passed ovetsby the Commander-in•Chief,it would reflect so seriously upon his character that it would be im possible for him to continue in the army. Upon what prin ciple was the Commander-in-Chief to make his selection, and how was he to ascertain the qualities of the officer to be appointed ? The noble duke the Commander-in-Chief had told the commission that the plan was impracticable, and the.result would bo thathe would be obliged to revert to that objectionable system of appointment by seniority. It was the object of the commission to show that improper officers had been appointed to the command of regiments, and he was certainly srlarised to find how few instances had been established. The commission appeared in their reeommen • dations to have borrowed from the French army, but with only an imperfect knowledge of what the system was. The chef-de-bataillon had opportunities of displaying his capa bilities as a commander, and it was easy for the Commanaer in-Chief to form an estimate of his capacity for the command of a regiment ; but the case was different with a major in the English army, who had no opportunities of showing his capabilities to command a regiment. Upon the general ques tion of purchase in the army, it was notorious that the evil of slow promotion was so great in the artillery that the offi • cers had actually proposed the introduction of the system of purchase into that branch of the service. He trust..d that the Goveeament would well consider before they adopted the proposals of the commission, and abolished the system of purchase. The Duke of SOMERSET asked why the noble lord (Lord Panmure) had appointed the commission, if he was confident in his own mind that the system of purchase was good, and that it would be most ruinous to destroy it ? The noble lord, as the representative of the Government, ought not to have appointed the commission, and whyin the world did ho do so ? (Hear, and laughter .) His object must have been to shelve the question. He (the Duke of Somerset) was prepared to support the decision at which the commis sion had arrived. (Hear.) The commander of a regiment had a most important trust to discharge. The issue of a battle might depend upon him. The mortality in the Crimea lead been found to depend very much upon the efficiency et the commanders of the respective regiments, and it was most ab surd to appoint an officer merely because he was possessed of sufficient money to purchase the command. The Com mander-in-Chief had ample means of knowing the acquire ments of every officer, and who was the one best suited to be appointed. Surely there was no difficulty in passing over ' an officer, as the answer to any objection would be easy, that, without disparagement to the claims of the officer who was passed over, the claims of another seemed to be prefer able. The question, in feet, resolved itself into this— whether the interests of the public or those of the officers were to be consulted. He rlowed there were difficulties in carrying out the system ; ho was not prepared to suggest a remedy in every case, but he was quite convinced that the wider the field of selection the better it would be for the army and the country. By kaeping up the system of pur chase to a certain point, the great desideratum of having young officers in the lower ranks would be obtained, wh"e the principle of selection would keep the higher grades of the army in an efficient condition. There were no armies in the world in which the higher ranks of the army were filled up by purchase. He would not go into the general subject, but would content himse'f with saying that although there might be difficulties in carrying out the proposed system, yet he was satisfied that it would be such an improve ment upon the present system, that the difficulties of the change should be well considered, with a view to their removal and the introduction of a better system into the army. Earl GREY agreed with the noble duke that the task of selecting commanding officers was a most important one, and that they ought not to be appointed merely because they possessed a certain amount of money. But he was quite convinced that the practical working of the proposed system would be this, that, except in very rr-e cases, the appointments would be by seniority. This wee the opinion expressed by the illustrious Commander-in-Chief—(hear, hear)—and he cud not believe it would be found that a superior class of officers would be appointed. On the con trary, he believed that the present system gave to the Com mander in-Chief the opportunity of passing over inefficient officers, by recommending such as were unfit for promotion to sell out. (Hear, hear.) He knew that this plan had been a lopted, and he believe 1 that it was still the practice of his Royal Highness the present Commander-in-Chief. The political advantages of the present system appeared to be enormous. It placed men of position and standing, who in later life were to occupy important offices in the State, under the salutary influence of military command. (Hear, hear.) It had also the effect of preventing the army from being exclusive, and this ye - Li materially destroyed the danger which naturally attached to a large standing army. (Hear, hear.) The Duke of CAMBRIDGE said that, in the position which he occupied, it would be most indelicate on I's part to enter into any arguixents, because his opinions were well known, and had been given to the commission over which the noble duke (Duke of Somerset) had presided. He regretted to say that he had not changed the opinion which he then entertained ; and he would merely add that what ever might he decided upon, he could assure the noble duke and the house and the country, that as far as he was able he would make it his earnest and anxious endeavour—diffi cult, and perhaps to a certain extent almost impossible—to carry out the system asth a view to the best interests of the r opy and the advantage of the country. is nyes Vi r n e nnuftneptrut entertained iclnhAeadlstetDhwlr). opinionG E believed that t ) a b o li s h the would db e m thatostinjthueriopuns.n. principle o h f aelf 01 , selec tion was preferable, but having read the evidence of his RoyalaoHmpipAgiheNtriisysunalinttedtr e t d h noble earl, his former opinions had himbe e n withm ad made deliberately a h t i e n l s y by issuing be L en or c complained of the attack which EP l the noble duke, who had charged question.the commission for the pur itsheonly answer t that pose of shelving the f ee li ngs with which a gentleman should repudiateat charge was this, that he repudiated t attack witha chargeall the upon his personal honour He was not satisfied that the pre sent system mas all. that could be desired, and be was desi rous to see if sonic charge for th e better could not be intro duced. He confessed that he as not satisfied with the ro stilt of the delibera,:ons of the commission. The Duke of SOMERSET said lie did not intend to s a anything which could affect the personal char ac t er of they noble earl. The bill was then read a second time. Their lordships adjourned at a gum :es to nine o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) :he SPEAKER took th© chair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following* ;;;;;e:;.la third time and passed and hayfield Railway ; London and North Western Railway and Saint Helens Canal and Railway Companies ; And. atwestry and Newtown Railway (Branch Railway, &c.) 'he Wigan Water Bill was considered and ordered for -d reading. ROY AL COMMISSION. - The USHER OF THE BLACK ROD summoned the house to the bar of the House of Lords, to hear the Royal as•vnt given,by commi ss io n t o several bills, for which see Lords' report. The Speaker, accompmied by some members, then proceeded to the House of Lqrds. • CHURCH RATES. A considerable portion of the evening was occupied in hearing petitions for and against the abolition of church rates. - • • . . • .LEAVE OF: ABSENCE..: • . On the motion of Mr. RICARDO, leave of absence was :.given to Mr. Alderman Copeland, on 'the - ground of domes • tic affliction. • NORWIH ELETION. Mr.. T. DUN COMBE C moved.tha C t Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant 'to the Clerk of , the Crown• to make out a new mrit far the electing of two citizens to serve-in this presefit Parliament for the city of Norwich, in the room of. Henry tVilliaui William . Schneider, Esq., and tho Right ilonouridtle Coutts Koppel, commonly called Viscount B LLrYt whose elections have been determined to be void. He remarked that there were no less than nine vacancies in Parliament at present, and complained that by the rules of the house he was not able to move for this wilt on a previous occasion, 'because he could not bring it forward before half-past four o'clock. A constitutional principle was involved in the question, for it was most important that the representati on in Parlia ment should be compete. (Hem) Mr. GRIFFITH opnosed t'ie motion in consequence of the corruption twat had been proved against the eon stituency of Norwi Ct. He denied in tote what might be called the jargon a Parliament, as to the corrupting influence exercised by candidates, and considered that the corruption originated with the feelings and sentiments of constituencies taemselves. He believed that a majority would V 0 43 with him if they were actually sincere in the sentiments they expressed in favour of purity of election. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT said that he had presented a petition from the corporation of the city of Norwich, numerously signed, stating that extensive bribery had been committed in the city of Norwich, and praying for a commission to inquire into the subject. It was a fact that when an election peti tion was decided, no person appeared to have anY interest in the question of the commission of bribery, and no inquiry was made into the matter. With respect to the pe Alen of the Corporation of Norwich, it was presented too late according to the rules of the house, to be entertened. There had been more cor. aption at Norwichthan in Gloucesterand Wakefield together, and, therefore, it was to be regretted that an inquiry couldnot be procec Jed with. The petitioners stated that nay hal done all in their power to prevent the screening of the great electoral iniquity that had taken place in the city of Norwich. (Hear, hear.) Mr. ROEBUCK said it would serve Norwich i'ght if no writ for that city were issued for ten years. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He believed the bribery complained of did not take place without the sanction of the authorities of Norwich, and ho believed that those who accepted bribes at the last general election would do the same again when they had the opportunity. He called on the house to pass such a vote on the present occasion as * would mark their sense of the corruption that pervaded certain constituencies of the country. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BOUVERIE explained that the petitions against the late members had reference to the corruption practised at the last general election, and not at the last election of these members. Bribery had been proved in the case of the Clare election, and he did not see that there were any grounds for not adopting the course pursued in regard to !sluing a writ for that place, so far as related to the city of Norwich. After a few words from Mr. COLLINS, Sir G. GREY said he did not rest the question of issu ing this writ on the ground that another writ under similar circumstances had been ordered, but he contended that on general grounds they could refuse this writ. As the hon. member for Birmingham has stated the petition fnom the Corporation of Norwich was presented too late to be acted on by the house. The election committee in this re/3ov.* did not atutc any circumstances to justify the appointment of a select committee to inquire into the alleged corruption at Norwich, and it was to be regretted that the inquiry could not be instituted. After'some observations from Captain Jeitvis and Mr. VANSITTAILT The SPEAKER said that the motion for the writ in the case of Mr. Schneider. had been formally put by him and agreed to ; and the question before the ho use re l a t e d t o th e writ with reference to the voidance of Lord Bury's election. This statement created considerable astonishment, hon. members not being aware of the position in which the ques • tion then stood, as some irregularity prevailed when the Speaker put the motion. After some further discussion, the motion for a new writ for the election of a burgess. in the room of Lord But y, was put and carried without a division. PATENTS. Captain JERVIS moved an addreess for all sums paid for patents annually, ..;:om the Ist day of January, 1855 to the Ist day of January, 1860, and of the manner in which the same have Leen disposed of during that pertod.—Ordered. CHINA AND JAPAN. • Sir DE LACY EVANS moved an address fora return showing the salaies or allowances of the plenipotentiaries, secretaries, and interpreters, or other officers of the missions to China and Japan, of the Earl of Elgin, the Hon. Mr. Bruce, and Mr. Alcock.—Ordered. SAVOY AND NICE. Mr. KINGLAKE asked the Semetary of State for Fo reign Affairs whether there would be any objection to lay upon the table of the hou e the following papers relating to the proposed annexation to France of Savoy and Nice, viz. : —M. Thouvenel's lr at despatch on that subject, the answer of her Majesty's Government thereto, and the note recently addressed to her Majesty's Government by the Government of Switzerland ; and also (if they have been communicated) the protest address:i by the Swiss Government to the Go vernment of France, a-id the answer of M. Thouvenel thereto ? Lord J. RUSSELL—I think it word be injurious to the public service to lay these papers on the table; but I will state on raother day when they may be prc dueed. In reply to a number of other questions, Lord J. RUSSELL said that he would reply to the seve ral questions that had been put to him, as distinctly as pos sible. The hon. and gallant member for Westminster had asked a question in reference to the mission to China, and stated that his wish was that there should only be one mis sion to that country, and that Mr. Bruce should be recalled on Lord Elgin going to China. In the first place, he would say that it was always understood that in the case of special mission, the actual expenses should be paid in addition to any salary that might be allowed. It was impossible, how ever, to form any accurate estimate of the cost of such mis sion until it was concluded. With . regard to the recall of Mr. Bruce, he (Lord J. Russell) never could have gone to Lord Elgin, and have proposed that a mark of degradation should have been placed upon his brother at the time that ho was asking him to go to China. (Hear, hear.) Lord Elgin would remain there only so long as his services would be requirei, and the regular mission wo&d bo retained no uowil. ll° }hart had acveral interviews with the Emperor of the French, the French MiniSter for Foreign Aff..-s, rid Baron Gros. He informed him (Lord J. Russell) that there was a general agreement on the sub ject of the irstructiors to be given; and ho hoped that be fore long Lord Elgin would be able to set out on his mis sion. Baron Gros, he believed, would depart about the sr - ne time. (He: r, hear.) The next question referred to Morocco, but the ga''ant officer who asked that question might have seer, some months ago, in the Gazette, and afterwards in the papers before the house, an - account of the security we proposed to take against the permanent occupation of Tangiers. We represented to the Spanish Government that Tangiers was of great importance to the victualling of Gibraltar. Tal-ing no part in the war, they did not, of course, interfere with the military operations of Spain, but we asked h the most friendly way that Spain should agree, if Tangiers were occupied, that it should not be permanently annexed to Spain. To that proposition Spain agreed. The correspondence was before Pr-liament, and he had no doubt that the Spa rish Government would faithfully perform its promise. The Morocco Government hid proposed, he understood, a-i indemnity to Spain, and if that should be acc3pted, the war may be shortly concluded. If not, it was impossible for him to say how long the occu pation of Tangiers, or Tetuan, or any other place, may be continued. The next question was with regard to the memoir e from the Swiss Government sent to this country some months ago. The hon. member for Pontefract had before asked him for a copy of that nzemoire, and it was ordered that an address should be presented for it. He be lieved that it was now in the hands of the printer. It was of considerable length, but he hoped that it world soon be laid on the table of the house. The =op which accompa nied it was one of great detail, end it would be impossible, without considerable expense and delay, to procure a fag simile of it. But they were endeavouring to mol;e an out line of the frontiers proposed ; and if the boundary stated on the map was that of 1814, 'he trusted that that map would likes ise soon be placc I before the house. (Hear.) The hon. member for Perthshire (Mr. Stirling) then asked him if he (Lord J. Russell) would lay upon the table ex tracts from his privat3 correspondence. He did not mean to lay on the table any part of his privata letters. (Hear.) But if the hon. gentleman had looked at all the papers he would have found the substance of all that he asked to have. When Lord Cowley reported on the 4th of July his conversation with Count Walewski, be said that his Excellen6y's language *as not over satisfactory. His Excellency stated that there was no understanding what ever between France and Sardinia. He did not deny that the question had been more than once discussed, and that the Emperor entertained the idea that if Sardinia be came a largo Italian kingdom it was not unreasonable to expect that she should make territorial concessions elsewhere. That was the language of the despatch, and at various tines when Lord Cowley spoke to Count.Walev.-ski, his Excellency repeated that if Sar dinia were to become a le:ge kingdom, which he did not allow to be possible, sho ought to make some territor;al concessions. Lord Cowley, in speaking of M. Th ouvene l - - on the 27th January, said that as Count NValewsl , i had h.- formed months ago that the idea of the annexation of Savoy, if ever entertained, had been abandoned at the time of the signature of the peace of Villafranea, said he could not help asking his ExcAleney if ho had any information on the subject ? Tb;s did not at :se as an immediate ques tion of diplomatic discussion; but Cot -- at %Valewski always maintained that the peace of Villafranca, and afterwards the treaty of Zurich, obliged the Emperor to use every means Aril t. of actual force to restore the Archdukes in - Tuscany and Modena. Thus ho repeated what ho had already said in reference to an increase of territory by Sar dinia, and that France in that event would expect territo rial concessions. But this had nothing t 3 do with what was going to he done. What at as going to be done was to call together a Congress. Before the Congres s th ere was no doubt. that Count Walewski would have proposed, on the part of France, that the Grend Lake should be restored in Tuscany, because he told Lord Cowley that if he made a proposition to the Congress, that would be the one he would make. Ile did not see that the produc;ion of any private letters of Lord Cowley would add to that infm.nation. The state of things was this—That so long as Count Walewski remained in °thee, the French Government would consi der themselves bound to restore the Grand Duke in 'rus eany ; cud if he: had -been restored in Tuscany, and if the Duke of Modena had been restored in Modena, there would have been no question w h atever of the annexation I of Savoy to Prance. The honourable gentleman expressed his regret that he (Lord John Itussc-11) had said tkat night that he could not produce at present the an swer of the Government to M. Thouveners despatch. Ile certainly stated some nights ago that he hoped shortly to be able to produce it, but he was now obliged by a sense of duty to act inconsistently with font declaration. Since he to bar Majesty' s G overnment, anise negotiations had interve ne d. S witzer. only.reatthed the Govprument that morn . i‘ u Na. i hn a i d d6 e ibi t at h idp a p t ein i a ? ha t e li midst ofner , otiations, and to invite the house to dictat e th e ing, and TO produce that dispatch would be to do so b 1 th e answer which he should give to that dispatch before the Government had time to consider it. It would be contrary to precedent and to the principle of our constitution to lay the despatch'en the table of the house. The question.was still a matter of negotiation, and it would be requisite for the Government t o corn nunicate 'with the different Powers of Europe on the subj e ct of this - annexation. In the midst of such negotiations it would be impossible for him to pro duce the papers. As soon as he could consistently with his duty he would do so. He had no inclination to conceal any thing from the house in this matter; but when an hon. gentleman said that the French Government did not hesi tate to publish despatches. he thought he must be aware that their position was difeeent from ours. It was true that ad , patch was pein`ed la the Monitsur, but there wen not in France an assembly to dlscass that despatch, or news papers which commented freely on iia contents. There it certainly remains for the con siderat _ on o f the French people, but it is free Nen all hostile celtieism. (Hear, hear.) In this country the case was wholly different, and he was glad that it was so, but still it rendered it prudent that the Eng lish Government should display some reserve. Mr. DISRAELI said he was sure that the plea urged by the noble lord for not laying the despatch in reference to the annexation of-Savoy on the table, on the ground that it would be inconsistent with his public duty to do so then, because negotiations were about to take place with respect to them with foreign Powers, weed have its due weight with the house, and he would not then further allude to the subject. But the noble lord had that evening, when speaking on the subject, referred to the negotiations which had taken place between this Government and the French Government between July end December last. The noble lord had not abided by the statement which he had made originally on the subject, but had adopted the opinions of the First Minister, who said that they could take no step in the matter, as they were expecting a Congress to meet to take the whole matter into consideration. But the House of Commons lam well enough that a Congress was not a de liberative assembly, and that all matters to be submitted to it were to be previously considered and settled by the Powers to be represented at that Congress. He therefore could not accept the explanation given upon this subject by the noble lord the Foreign Minister, or by the First Minister himself. Then the noble lord objects to extracts from his private letters being laid before the house on this question. They did not ask for extracts from the noble lord's private letters, but what the hou s e did ex p ec t was , that such extracts should be made f-oin his letters and the ambassador's letters as should place in the Foreign Office a complete diplomatic record of all the transactions con nected with this question of the annexation of Savoy. (Hear.) The noble lord seemed to think it was wrong to make ex tracts from private letters ; but what was the case with re • spect to Naples ? Why, there an extract was made from a letter which was a menace to the King of Naples. More on that another time, and he only rose to protest against the statement that because a Congress was expected we ought not to be in a position to meet the intentions of France in reference to the annexation of Savoy. Lord PALMERSTON said the right hon. gentleman had stated that everybody knew that a Congress was not a deliberative assembly, and that it met simply to record decisions e'ready taken. With all submission to the right hon.. gentleman, he begged leave to say that . the ;elections which he ascribes to a Congress were precisely those which it was .not assembled to per:orm. A Congress was espe cially called together to deliberate. It was for this purpose that ell, the representatives of the different Powers meet— to discuss e consider, and determine—sitting round setable-- platters which by correspondence world never be brought to a,satisfaetory . conclusion. Indeed, the. very invitation sent to the Powers to meet in Congress implied delibera tion. The right hon. gentleman said that it was the duty of the Government to have settled this question of Savoy beforehand with France, in order that, having settled it, the Congress might ratify the arrangement come to between them. - Our object in the Congress must have been to have enlisted 'on our - side the influence rind opinions of other Powers represented in that Congress. It was obvious that it was more likely that the Goverment of France would be induced to give way on a point on which we might differ in this manner, rather than to expect that by England and France discussing the matter together it would be settled as we could wish. It was quite plain, therefore, that the best method of inducing a foreign Power to yield its opinions was to wait till four or five Powers could meet together, when it would be much more likely that a foreign Power would yield in deference to the wishes of a Congress than to give way to a single Power which desired a change. The right hon. gentleman was misleading the house, both as to the nature of the Congress and as to the policy pur sued by the Government. As to private letters, the hon. gentleman seemed to think they ought to be converted into public despatches. Mr. DISRAELI—No, no. Lord PALMERSTON—I say yes. The right hon. gen tleman says that every private letter that contains anything en public matters— . Mr. DISRAELI—No, no. Lord PALMERSTON—I appeal to the speech, and re peat my assertion. The right hon. gentleman must know that every messenger or packet that brings public despatches brings also a private and confidential letter in which various circumstances are mentioned which are often not of suffi cient importance to be placed in the form of a despatch, and in which communications are made of matters received in conversation which it would be impossible to lay on the table of the house—as all despatches are liable to be laid— without placing the agent by whom the letters are written in a situation in which he would lose all information so essential to the public service. The right hon. gentleman, therefore, has not established his case that my noble friend has departed froni the usual course in drawing a marked line between private letters and public despatches. The right hon. gentleman talked of these despatches as letters, whereas they were not letters but despatches, and the right hon. gentleman should remember to apply the proper word to the proper thing. That which my noble friend produced were despatches sent to the Foreign Office; that which he declines to produce are private letters. Mr. DISRAELI—What I said was this, that no Minis ter should lay on the table of the house despatches refer ring to private letters unless those private letters could be produced. If, as in this case, the papers do refer to private letters, they must be of an important public nature or they would not be referred to, then they ought to be produced. Mr. HORSMAN said he was glad to hear what the noble lord had said at the conclusion of his speech. He agreed that on occasions like thin the Tiretca of Conexiona oould not tro too caren..l; out there W 0 ,13 occasions when it became the duty of Parliament to interfere. He apprehended that this was one of those cases. They knew that the Emperor of the French was peculiarly amenable to public opinion, especially to the public opinion of England, which carried greater weight upon the Continent than the despatches of Ministers. Therefore, if they had discussed this question at an earlier period, and if the house had expressed a broad opinion upon the policy of her Majesty's Ministers he be lieved that it would have had a great effect in averting some of those events which they had now to de plore. His hon. friend the member for Bridgwater had come forward weeks ago to forewarn them, and on all occasions he was told that it would bo impolitic to enter into the discussion. They,wero told that it would be, better if they left it to the Government to deal with the Emperor of the French—(hear, hear)—and yet, now that which they had feared had come to a head ; and the fact that the Go vernment were now in communication, and very properly so, With the Great Powers of Europe, showed that we were approaching something similar to a crisis which he thought an early discussion might have averted. He had heard the speech of the noble lord at the head of the Government last week with regeet, for the noble lord wont out of his way to apologise for and eulogise the Emperor of the French. The SPEAKER called the hon. gentleman to order, informig him that he could not refer to past debates. Mr. HORSMAN said he thought he could refer to past debates on the same subject. The SPEAKER said the hon. gentleman was wrong. This was a discussion on the motion for theadjournment. Mr. lIORSMAN said he was addressing himself to the affairs of Italy, and last week the noble lord said he had received a despatch from M. Thouvenel—(loud cries of Order, order)—in which it was announced that the annexa tion of Savoy was about to take place without consultation with the other great Powers of Europe; and yet they had received shortly before from the head of the Government as explicit declaration to the contrary effect. The SPEAKER again called the right hoe. gentleman to order for his continued references t 3 a past debate. Mr. lIORSMAN said thathe would not further allude to that speech, but he would say that while they were refrain ing from discussing that question for a whole month, the annexation was progresaing. ((Hear hear.) Mr. BAILLIE COCHItANE said he deeply regretted that we had not had a full discussion on this subject. He had received letters frem a gentleman in Savoy, regretting that the British Parliament had not taken the matter up,_ and stating that nine-tenths of the population were opposed to the annexation, and that the result of the conduct of the noble lord at the head of the Government was, that this country was losing its prestige in Piedmont. He hoped that a full debate would yet, ensue before the annexation was irrevocably carried out. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, on the part of his noble friend, who, by the forms of the house could not speak again on the subject, that his noble friend was not aware of having done more than having stated to the house what was unquestionably a scatter of fact, viz., that there was a declaration on the part of the Emperor of the French of his intention to consult the great Powers of Europe ash respect to the annexation of Savoy; and the construction which the noble lord put upon that de• so me thi ng claration was very different from what had taken place. He thought it was necessary, on the part of thb Government, to say one word with respect to what had fallen from his right honourable friend, because from what they had heard they might really have sup posed thin the name of Savoy had never been men tioned during the last six weeks. It was true that there had been no thoroughgoing discussion on the subject of a nature to terminate in a full and satisfactory expression of opinion. The right hon. gentleman opposite thought it would have been better if there had been a full discussion-- that might be true ; but there had been repeated partial discussions. Speeches had been delivered in that house in which the strongest language had been used in reference to the whole subject; many judgments had been pronounced and epithets used, and descriptions given, which might have bed a very powerful, add, possibly, might hereafter have a detrimental influence on the state of public feeling in a neighbouring, country. But that the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Horsinan) had bcrno a leading part in these discus sions, he would have thought that he had been unaware of them. No one hail been more precipitate than the right hon. gentleman, who hid used language which could have no other effect than that of inflaming those to whom it was addressed, and which would tend to produce an angry state of feeling, and a sense insult, which was the most likely of all possible states of mind to drive France on to a preci • pirate course of action. (Hear, hear.) Mr. ROE BUCK—Members of that house wore in a diffie cult poition in regard :o foreign affairs. Sometimes they were told when they iiterferod, that they were too soon, and when they came a, little later they were told they were too late. (Hear, lease) That was their exact posi tion on this occasion. lie noble lord had stated its that house that the Einpererof the French would take no steps for the annexation of :isvoy end Nice without consulting the great. Powers; the roble hal had said that that was the statement of the Eimeror of the French ; but he (Mr. Roebuck) would boldly ay that the question of Savoy and Nice was settled, and Wtlrout nu reference whatever to the great Powers. If his were the case, what influence ought it to have on Heir estimatloa of the value of the statements made in tint quarter? Ho held them very cheap, even before this glace - unit— (chew and laughter)-- and now, fC.er the very candid acknowledgment by the noble lord at the h e ad of the Government, there was no ex pression of worthlessuesswhich would adequately convey his estimation of them. (Hear, hear, end laughter.) • Mr. HORSMAN dude( having made use of exesperat ing or insulting language sn the subject. Mr. MONCK I TON MINES said he believed that a full discussion even now wou'd be of the greatest advantage to Europe. He had for a lo ng time looked upon the annexa tion of Savoy to Fronce th inevitable. • REBUKE BY MDISTERS TO MEMBERS. Mr, KiNaLAKE said he could not burexpress his sur prise at the Charge made by the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer against his right hon. friend the member for Stroud. It was the right of every hon. member of that house to comment on the conduct of poten tates, and he did not see anything in what his right hon. friend (Mr. Horsman) had said that could justify the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the manner in which he exuressed himself to his right hon. friend ; and before he (Mr. Kinglake) sat down he should express his surprise at the language used by the right hon. gentleman, who said, with something like fear, that the language used by hon. members in that house might give offence to the Emperor of the French. He must protest against the no • tion that the tone and language of that house was to be regulated by considerations in reference to what the Em peror of the French might think of it. (Hear, hear.) FRAUDS IN THE COLLECTION OF INCOME-TAX. On the order of the day being read for going into com mittee of ways and means, Mr. AYRTON said he wished to call the attention of the Government to a subject of very serious importance in ebn ' flexion with the collection of the income-tax in the parish of St. Leonard's, Shereditch. It appeared from a petition which had been presented from the inhabitants that the management of the income-tax in that p' rich was under the control of commissioners and a surveyor appointed by the Crown, but that those commissioners appointed collectors to collect the tax. The petitioners stated further that a con spiracy was entered into between the surveyor and the col lectors for the purpose of defrauding the inhabitants and her Majesty's Government. The nature of the conspiracy was that the collectors should deliver to the inhabitants notices of charge at a higher rate than the surveyor entered upon the roll which was approved of by the commissioners and transmitted to the Government, and that they should appropriate to themselves the difference between the two accounts. When the fraud was discovered the surveyor absconded, and it did not appear that any steps were taken either by the local commissioners or by the Commissioners Of Inland Revenue to have him apprehended ; one of the collectors was arrested and indicted for obtaining money under false pretences. That indictment was tried at the Central Criminal Court, but it seemed that the conduct of the prosecution was not entrusted to any counsel of emi • Hence, and the result was that the prisoner was acquitted upon some technical ground. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER •said no person could appreciate the motives of the hon. member in bringing the case, to which he had called attention, under the consideration of the house more than he did. There were two points of view in which the question was - to be con sidered, and one of them was that it was not shown that the inhabitants in the parish in question had been sub jected to a higher assessment than others and than was fair. The other point was that it was desirable that the in habitant ratepayers throughout the country should take an interest in the manner in which the revenue of the country was collected. He did not think that the grievance com plained of had been overstated in some reepects, and he was glad to think it was not a common one. It was his intention, in the course of th e p resent session, to propose en-act of Parlia men t to remedy the anomaly, that the col lection of those taxes should be brought under the direc tion, control, and responsibility of the Government. (Hear, hoar.) The question of the adjournment was then agreed to. WAYS AND MEANS.—THE INCOME TAX. The order of the day for going into Committee of Ways and Means having been read and agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in using to move the income tax resolution, said that he should merely place the resolution in the hands of the chairman, without any lengthened explanation; because, in point of fact, in the course of these discussions on the budget and the treaty of commerce, almost all the general topics had been very considerably dealt with. The exact state of the case was, that according to the calculations which he made on the 10th of February, the revenue, as then anticipated, on the supposition that the house would vote the minor 'charges and the income tax, as stated in the resolution, would give him a probable surplus of £400,000. He need hardly say, also, that if a reduction of a penny were made in the tax, it would leave a positive deficiency of about the same amount, instead of a surplus. Lord W. GRAHAM observed that, in stating hisbudget to the house the right hon. gentleman had adverted to the possibility of an extinction of the income tax by the reduc tion of the military and naval establishments of the coun try. Looking at the state of Europe, however, and parti - cularly as the act of spoliation and aggrandisement which was soon about to be consummated, it became more than ever the duty of the country to maintain an attitude of armed watchfulness. It was an evasion, therefore, on the part of the right hon. gentleman, to ask for the tax only for a single year. The hon. gentleman had thrown away large amounts of indirect taxation with such a lavish hand, that there was no hope from that source of any re duction in the tax. Nor was it to be effected, that he could see, by Iry reduction in the armaments of the country. The estimate for the military expenditure, it was known, was not adequate for the defence of the country, and the right hon. gentleman had only asked for a portion of the Chinese expenditure, proposing te:make up the deficiency by some hccus peens mystification between the Indian Treasury and the Downing -street Exchequer. It was pretty clear, however, that the house might expect to be told one day that all the money was spent, and that more must be had. The right hon. gentleman used to pride him self at one time upon acting upon Conservative principles. This, however, was no Conservative principle, but he rather thought it one that was pregnant with rashness and im providence. Mr. W. MARTIN said that the tax in future years would become unnecessary if there should no longer be oc casion to maintain our naval and military establishments at their present extraordinary amount. To satisfy themselves that such a reduction was possible, they had no need to go back to the year 1835, so frequently taken as a model year of finance, but if they would take the estimates of the year 1857, when the military service of the country was admi rably provided for by the hon. and gallant gentleman the member for Huntingdon, they would see that their object might be readily attained. In that year the sum voted for the two great services was rather more than £19,000,000; at present it was more than £29,000,000. That arose, no doubt, from the necessary permanent investment of a large capital, but were they to go on for ever making Enfield rifles and Armstrong guns ? Was there never to be a limit for them to reach in this tremendous expenditure in time of peace ? If there were not, then he agreed with the noble lord opposite, the memb e r fur Hereford, that there was no hDpe for the extinction of the income tax. It was a war tax, and we virtually had war estimates, and in that cha racter he was willing to recognise the necessity of it; but next year, whoever may be the Chancellor of the Exche quer, he would see whether an end could not be put to this expenditure. The quest ion would be if £20,000,000 was not enough for the defence of the country. If it were not, then the income tax was the only means of meeting the heavy cost of our defences; and he was sure the country would not much longer endure it in its present form. All men were heartily tired of a tax which united in itself every possible objection that could be urged against taxation. It was his firm opinion that if their armaments were largely reduced, the income tax might be very speedily removed. (Hear.) Mr. GARNETT said he rose chiefly to explain a misap prehension which existed as to the nature of the motion which he intended to submit at a future stage of this sub ject. The proposal of the right hon, gentleman was that incomes under £l5O should pay 7d. in the pound. His (Mr. Garnett's) motion would be that that rate should be ex tended to incomes as high as £5OO. He had come to the conclusion that £5OO was too high, and he thought it would be better to extend the exemption to incomes under £3OO, with the twofold object of relieving the greatest number of individuals at the least possible loss to the revenue. Tak ing- the income tax returns - which were issued last July, it will be found upon examination that the number of persons under schedule D paying income tax on incomes between £l5O and £2OO were 41,031; upon incomes between £2OO and £3OO, 33,611; but when they came to incomes between £3OO and £4OO, there was a great drop, the number being 15,591. Taking the number of persons assessed under schedule E, the falling off was still more remarkable, the number of persons paying on incomes between £l5O and £2OO was 11,521, between £3OO and £4OO, 10,484, and be tween £4OO and £5OO, 4,931. Therefore, in asking the right hon. gentleman to extend the exemption to incomes below £3OO, the amount lost would be £231,723, and there would be a very large number of persons relieved from the burden at that small cost to the exchequer. His main motive in bringing forward this proposition was to relieve persons of moderate means and precarious incomes, and to place th em linden the minimum ra t e. H e hoped that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be able out of his surplus to spare that relief to a deserving and heavily burdened class of the community. Sir C. NAPIER could not allow the hon. member (Mr. W. Martin) to indulge in the mistaken notion that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be enabled next year to reduce the income tax on account of what had been already spent on the army and the navy. The tax would not be one farthing less next year on that ground. We had certainly got a new wooden navy, and very fine ships they were • but who could gu aran t ee t h at they would be para mount,' and not have to be replaced by an iron navy. The French were already building iron ships, six of them being now in progress, and we had commenced following them, as ono iron ship at least was now building. If that was th e case we would have to c ons t ruc t new docyards of immense size for the building of the new ships. In addition, the pre sent navy would have tube new gunned with A rms t rong ' s or Whitworth's guns, at an immense expense, and if the .Secretary of the Admiralty had been present he would have asked him how soon that could be done. He did not believe that at present we could "gun" more than one or two ships with Armstrong's guns. The coat of the war with China would be far greater than had been estimated, and if the French Government went on building ships of war at the rate they did, we must build as fast or faster, because we had a greater number of colonies and a larger commerce to protect than France. (Hear.) The only way he could see to any future reduction in the income tax was that the Go vernment should act on the principle advocated by Mr. Cobden in that house, and enter into an arrangement with the French Emperor at what point they should stop build ing ships. If that was not done, the house and the country might depend upon it that the income tax next year would not be less than Is. or Is. 3d. Europe wasin a moat unset tled and unsatisfactory state. No one knew how far the Emperor of the French would go. For his own part, ho believed he meant mischief, and under these circumstances hey must not indulge in any unfounded expectations of the •eduction of the income tax. (Hear, hear.) Sir S. NORTHC •TE complained that the usual course rad been departed from in voting taxes in ways and 'leans, before they knew really what the expenditure of he year actually was. Indeed, the whole course pursued appeared to him most objectionable. Take the vote for China, which was pressed forward at a late hour, and which his right hon. and gallant friend the late Sccretaryfor War had questioned, subsequently, as to its accuracy. That vote was for the year 1860-61, but to meet a deficiency in the year 1859-60, and as that deficiency had been differently stated at £1,170,000, while the vote taken was for t 850,000, it was clear that there was a discrepancy somewhere. He must say it was extremely difficult to follow these estimates, but from some experience at the Treasury, he looked with considerable dis:rest at all estimates that came from the War-office. (Hear, hear.) lie knew that, when last in Alice, he found the military authorities extremely reluctant to admit that there was ally deficiency. when it turned out afterwards that the 'deficiency was actually upwards of a million. He would be glad, therefore, to hear either from the Chancel or et the Exchequer or the Secretary to the Treasury that they had satisfied their on a minds as to the accuracy of the estimates connected with Chine. (Hear.) fie said this became) he felt that there were many points on which it was important the house should have information. Was ther e any truth in the statement that a large loan was to be raised for the purpose of fortifying our coasts? Was that loan to be £20,000,000, or £1,000,000; and if it was 'either, how was the interest to be paid ? They ought tq know whether it was inters led to ask for such le eel% and not have it brought forward late iu the year as a supplemental estimate. Than the Chancellor of the Exchequer had pro mised that there would be a diminution in the cost of the civil service of £350,000; he should like to know whether ► that would be a real or only an apparent reduction. They were justified in being critical in asking questions, because the budget had been brought forward in a shape which threw a larger amount of burdens on the people than they could see at first. The Chancellor of the Exchequer anti cipated the income of the next year by taking up the large sum of £1,400,000 of malt and hop credits. He proposed, besides, to collect three-quarters of the increased income tax within the year, which would, in fact, be equivalent to a tax of 15d., instead of the nominal amount of 10d. The practice hitherto had been to collect a half-year's income tax within the year, which would have taken from the taxpayer sd. this year, whereas he would have to pay 71d. if three-quarters were collected. In addition to thus imposing heavier burdens on the taxpayers, the Chancellor of the Exchequer was collecting, for the purposes of this year, money, which, according to the practice hitherto, be longed to the next, and that would necessitate a repetition of the same course. (Hear, hear.) Another subject on which he would like to hear some explanation from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was as to the amount paid by tenant-farmers un d er schedules A and B. He certainly could not reconcile the statements he had made with the facts in the returns, which returns showed that this class of taxpayers had contributed of late a much larger increase in proportion than those under schedules D and E. It might be owing to the fact that the class was larger and richer, but an explanation was required. There was another consideration of a painful character connected with the con tinuance of the income tax, and that was the frauds com mitted by those who assessed themselves. The higher the tax was made the greater would those frauds become. It should also be borne in mind that we had not by any means arrived at the limit of expenditure on our army and navy. With the great improvements almost hourly brought to light in materials both of naval and military warfare, where the limit of invention was beyond the possibility of con ception, they could not draw the lino, and to stop in the career of expense was, he feared, impossible. It had been laid down by the First Lord of the Admiralty, and was assented to by the hon. member for Rochdale, that the strength of our navy should be in proportion to the strength of the navies of France and Russia. If circumstances ad mitted, the war duties on tea and sugar should be removed next year. They had been told, however, that the next re formed Parliament would be of an economical character, and that they would not put up with extravagance. Upon what giound was that expectation formed ? The large expenditure for the maintenance of our army and navy raised wages and benefited the population. The labsuring classes were in a mere comforfable and betters position than before. Was it reasonable then to suppose that a Parliament elected by the extended suffrage given to the working classes would be anxious to cut down expenditure as some supposed ? His fear was that they would throw more of the burthen on the upper classes and realised property. The danger was con siderably aggravated by voting the income tax from year to year. He was anxious to maintain the credit of the country as well as the balance of revenue and expenditure. He was ready to vote the sum called for that night by the Caancellor of th e E xc h equer, but he sincerely hoped it was the last year that they would be called upon to vote the in come tax for one year only. Sir M. PETO said that his constituents did not object so much to the amount of the income tax as to the mode in which it was levied. There ought to be a thorough and sifting inquiry with a view to an equalisation of the impost, and although they might not succeed in doing perfect jus tice, yet they' could accomplish that w hi c h h e ca ll e d roug h justice. In his opinion there ought to be three gradations —fixed property, those trades in which capital was em ployed, and incomes where no capital whatever was em ployed. The house was bound, in his opinion, to press on the Government th e i mpor t ance of looking at question carefully and fully, and then they would have the satisfac tion of knowing that they had effected the largest amount of justice before they consented to another renewal of the tax. The hon. baronet the member for Stamford had de scribed the budget as a peculiar budget. The measure was universally acceptable to the country. Iniividual com plaints were urged against some of the details, but still the financial scheme met with approval as a whole. He would not be prepared next year to assent to the imposition of the income tax without the fullest consideration being given as to the mode in ;which it was to be levied. As a whole he accepted the budget, and he should vote for the income tax dist year with very great pleasure. - Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that he had given notice of an amendment, namely, to reduce the proposed amount of income tax from. 10d. to 9d. and in orde r th a t th e dis cussion might take a practical form he intended taking the sense of the committee on his amendment. They had two propositions to consider. Were £70,000,000 necessary to defray the expenditure of the country, and then, if such an amount of income must be raised, was that income to be made up by a tenpenny income tax ? Let the committee con - sider that they had no question of a war or great public crisis that required the imposition of an additional income tax. The deficit was artificially or intentionally created by her Majesty's Government. He had not opposed the repeal of the taxes proposed by the Government, though he thought that some of those taxes, as sources of revenue, were thrown away. We had thrown away revenue upon high class wines, and he did not think it was wise to rest the revenue upon a few articles. He admitted that the house having agreed to the budget, it was bound to find a substitute for the defi ciency created in thd revenue by it. But he must say that the income tax was a most unjust equivalent to meet that deficiency ; for the tax was a most inquisitorial one. In 1842, when Sir Robert Peel had great difficulties to con tend with to adjust the finances of the country, the noble lord the member for the City of London expressed his de termination to oppose the proposal for the imposition of an income tax, because he considered it to be an inquisitorial tax, and ought not to be had recourse to except in a time of war, and the noble lord moved a resolution to that effect, in which he was supported by the whole Whig party. (Hear, hear.) He (Sir H. Willoughby) could not assent to the principle that the expenditure of the country ought necessarily to be £70,000,000. Why should we imitate the expenditure of France in our dockyards, and such like establishments. Indeed, he thought the expen diture of the country was too great. But of all the modes of meeting this expenditure the most objectionable was the income tax. It was an unequal and odious tax, and those who proposed it were bound to make out a case for its imposition. He begged, in conclusion, to move an amendment that the; income tax for the year be 9d. instead of 10d. (Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the noble lord who had commenced the discussion said it was a delusion to ask them to vote the income tax for one year only. The reason why they had asked for the tax for one year was, that they might preserve to Parliament the pre sent control over the expenditure of the country. There was no delusion in that. An hon. gentleman said he had voted •for the income tax because he thought the tax would wholly cease next year. The gallant admiral, the member for Southwark, had corrected what had been wrong in that too sanguine expectation, Accoriing to him, they had nothing to look forward to, if his prophecies were to be trusted, but the addition of several millions every year to the navy esti mates, and every year they were to be told that their provi sion was totally insufficient for the navy estimates of the country. He thought it would be better not to accede to either of those views. The gallant admiral ought to bear in mind that there were limits to the endurance of taxation, and that men had not been created for the sole purpose of the navy. The hon, member for Stamford said that they had given every source-of revenue, but the hon, gentleman ought to recollect that revenue and expenditure ought to go together. His hon. friend the member for Finsbury asked if they would go into a committee of the house to con sider whether the income tax could not be so constructed as to press less heavily on the productive classes. The-sub ject was a proper ono to consider, but he could not give his hon. friend any hope that the inquiry would be successful for the purpose intended. It was his opinion that if the income tax was to be continued as a right for several years, that it would be a fair subject of consideration how far it could be made to press less burdensome upon the lower classes. This occurred in the time of Pitt, when a modification of the tax was made in reference to incomes of £2OO a year. The hon. baronet had already seen the views and temper of the house. He knew that the army and navy estimates had been before the house, and that the number of men in the army and navy had been agreed to. Passing to the civil list, it was proposed to make a reduction in the mis cellaneous estimates • but upon th a t po i nt he could not make further expl a nat ions, and he could not perceive how, by means of committees, any very important reductions could be made. It was by means of the public feeling that reductions could be effected. The prevailing tone that night had been that as regarded the war with China the estimates had been insufficient, and in that opinion the late Secretary_ for War (General Peel) had said that ho coin cided. Now, that fact appeared to him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to be a sufficient answer to certain objec tions which had been made. Now,it was the duty of th e Chancellor of the E xc h equer to see that the estimates he proposed were sufficient estimates, and when they had for tunate years, when the revenue exceeded the expenditure, it was the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to tak e care to have a surplus, so as to reduce the debt t o some ex tent. (Hear, hear.) If the house were to decide in favour of the motion of the hon. baronet it would be departing The el from the p ru d en t po li cy w hi c h should be pu:s2uo:ood.o ayear. pease of law ref orms h a d b een complained of, and it wa s possible that th e c h anges propose d b y the Attorney.Ge oral would entail an expen se f or some time a Now that plan had been received by the country with a due regard to the distinguished powers of the man by whom it was proposed ; but that was no reason why the hon. gen tleman should seek to cut away from them resoumes to the amount of £7,000 or £B,OOO a year. The hon, baronet had shown no ground why his amendment should be agreed to. He said why throw away one million and a half of the paper duty ? His (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer's) answer was, that if the hon. baronet had taken the trouble to examine the returns he would have seen that the drawback was included on paper that was ex ported, besides Jie expense of collecting and the ex pense for paper used in the public service. It was cer tainly a large revenue, but it must be recollected that the house had determined to part with it by a large majority. He put it to the house to say whether the provision in the resolution was not a provision Which Would enable them to go through the service of the year. (Hear, hear.) As to the war with China, it was impossible to propose a very ac • curate sum. The change which had been made in the In dian Government threw Upon this country an amount which would have been pros hied for by the Indian Exche quer, and taking into account that the operation of the war might be avoided, he did not think th e y wou ld have been warranted in co m i ng to Parliame n t for a larger sum than they had asked. M (Hear T h) r. VANSITTAR said he had looked forward this year, in common with the public in general, to find that the income tax would have been aboli s h e d , and he could not approve of the rashness of creating a deficit of nearly four millions in order that certain parties who were favourable to the Government might be concili a t e d . Upwards of two millions wo u ld soon fall in of terminable annuities, which would have enabled the right hon. gentleman to apply one half to the reduction of the income tax, and the other half to the reduction of the war duties upon tea and sugar. Al ready the people were protesting against the policy of the Government. Mr, E. ELLICE, sen., said he should vote with the hem baronet, because he believed that the income tax was ono of the worst taxes that could be imposed, and because he was of opinion that, as compared with other taxes, the choice lay decidedly in favour of the repeal of the incAne I ix. (Hear, bear,) 1 The committee then divided, and the numbers were— For the amendment Affai4st it Majority —55 Ur. W. E. DUNCOMBE said the right hon. gentleman hat failed t o s h ow any reason far changing the entire 'purse of policy which he had adopted in 1853. He had not given a single Valid reason why he had come down to l ! al liAl?#.11‘ %it beak° this extraordinary claim upon their ,4011 24, MO. indulgence. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman had had all the advantage of the succession duty, but he had not shown any valid reason why they were to give him the advantage of the succession duty and the income tax too. (Hear, hear.) If the events which had since occurred had prevented the right hon. gentleman from abolishing the income tax altogether, he ought at least to have proceeded in that directi on , and been content with a " peace seven pence" instead of a "war tenpence." (Hear, hear.) The non. gentleman the member for Birmingham said that this was a popular budget, but he (Mr. Duncombe) differed from the hon. gentlemaa. (Cheers and laughter.) He heard from all parts of the country that this was an am' bitious budget. (Hear, and laughter.) They were to be severely taxed to have cheap wines and cheap brandy, which they did n o t care a b out. (Cheers and laughter.) He was surprised that a gentleman of the intelligence ,°!. the hon. gentlema n the member for Birmingham shell"' think this to be a popular budget; in his part of the coun try they held a totally different opinion. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) It was said that this budgilt was conciliatory to France, but what had they got by that? The annexation of Savoy. (Hear, hear.) The budget was pregnant with financial inconsistencies and financial injustice. It would lower our position, and humiliate us in the eyes of foreign countries. They were told that the country would derive great advantage from the financial scheme of the right hon. gentleman; but he believed it had originated in inconsis tency and would terminate in disaster. A large deficiener would be incurred, which could only be made up by a con tinuance of the odious and oppressive income tax. (Hear.) He concluded by saying that he looked with the greatest apprehension to the proposals of her Majesty's Government, as not only involving great financial difficulties at home, but distrust and want of confidence, and lose of influence throughout the Continent of Europe. The resolution was then agreed to. CONTRACT NOTES. On this resolution being proposed, Mr. BENTINCK moved that they do now report pro gress. The question was one of great public importance, and he wished to address the house at some length on the subject. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped the house would allow the question tnproceed as they had net commenced the proper business of the evening till nine o'clock. Delay in this question would lead to a loss in the revenue; for, unless they were permitted to take the first stage that Right, it would not be practicable to pass the bill before Easter. After some observations from Colonel Krrox and Mr. BENTINCK„ Lord PALMERSTON hoped the question would be al lowed to proceed, and that those who valued publio the ( ' would also attach value to public revenue. They were quite ready to hear the hon. gentleman. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that on Monday they proposed to proceed with the Wine Licenses Bill, and the Reform Bill would be taken for that day week• He also stated that these resolutions had ceased to be matted of controversy. The motion was withdrawn, and the resolitinn was agreed to. - The resolution respecting dock warrants was agreed toy s after a brief discussion. DELIVERY ORDERS. On this resolution, proposing to regulate the , mode in which the penny stamp on the delivery orders would ope rate, in relation to goods on sale or transfer in docks, wi ne discussion ensued, in which the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Arlon, Mr. Henkel, and other hon. members took part ; and the resolution, es somewhat verbally amended, was agreed to. BILLS, DRAFTS, OR ORDERS. Upon this resolution, providing and directing the rate of stamp duty to be imposed on bills of exchange, drafts, and orders, some discussion also took place, and some verbal amendments having been made in the construction of it, the resolution was agreed to. BIRTHS, DEATHS, &c. This resolution, providing that a stamp duty of one peen): be imposed upon any extract from any register or certified copy of births, deaths, and marriages, was also agreed to. COST BOOK. This resolution, imposing a stamp duty of 6d. on 01 entry or transfer of share or shares in cost book, was con sidered and agreed to. The next resolution regarded duty upon heritable pro" party in Scotland, which was agreed to ; and then one urn agreements, in which a stamp of 6d. was to be charged on agreements of 40s. and upwards. Mr. AYRTON thought that the change in the law 0 regarded agreements now proposed, namely, to charge but Gd. instead of 2s. 6d. above £2O, would be most beneficial: provided prope r s t eps were taken not to embarrass small transactions with the same duty C HANCELLOR of the . EXCHEQUER reminded the hon. gentleman that it was a very great reduction, and that no embarrassments would be created on small transac tions. After some discussion, the resolution was agreed to, 0 was also that respecting the agreements for leases. PROBATE DUTY. The resolution respecting the probate duty was agree d to; and also on a d ec l ara ti on made instead of an affidavit. The house then resumed. Mr. NEWDEGATE presented a petition from upward° of 600 licensed victuallers of Birmingham against the pro posed licensing system. The other orders were then disposed of, and the liouo adjourned at 10 minutes to 2 o'clock. COUNTRY MARKETS. LIVERPOOL--MARen 23. A good attendance of millers and dealers this ing, and wheat met a large business ; prices were Id to r per cental dearer than last Tuesday. Flour easier to 0411 " without change in value. Indian corn still moves slowil!" but quite as dear. Oats quiet, and fully held for the la t • improvement ; oatmeal in more ruest, and in some cas e° eq a little more money was paid. Beano, peas, and barley more saleable. WAKEFIELD—MARCH 23. Barley and beans were quite as dear. Oats and shelling .r A ls ah p o e i r t supply ruro 4:: .. f r ika ai t 'a ssr .. e A k y a h eat prices, w and a a f a t i a r n b a u d . v i n a e U m e e a . at former raga. Wheat, per qr. of 8 bushels 601 b., Essex, Suffolk, in A d Kent, white, o ld, 48 s to 518; new, 488 to 51 8; ditto_, re d , old, 42s to 44 5; new, 42s to 448; Lincolnshire and Yor',' shire white, new, 45s to 508; red, 41s to 448. . - Averages for the weet : Wheat 6,114 qrs., at 465 6d Peas .. —s Od Beans 39 — 4 ls Barley.. Oats 6O 2 65 1d Rye — —s Od EXETER _Mellen 23. The business to-day was firm at the following prices Wixeat, white.. 6s 3d to 6s 6d I Barley.. Od to 5s 0 4 , Ditto red 5 s 3d t o 5 s 6d Oats ... 3s Od to 3s 3. 1 Flour, fine, 34s to 35s ; seconds, 32s to 33s per sack. CATTLE. The attend ance was good, but the market was poorly' supplied with fat stock. Trade slack, at previous prices. A moderate supply of pork carcases. Fat beef,p score,9B6d to 10s6d Ewes, per lb 61d to 01 Pork carcases,do 9 8 Od t o 9 s 6d W ethers, d 0...... 7d to Sheep, per lb. - Rough fat, 41d per lb. BRISTOL SUGAR--31.tatca 23. The is still a fair demand for pan descriptions of suer, which are Nery scarce ; but grocery sorts are rather dull of sale, and slightly easier. The transactions since our hot are limited in amount. Refiners' produce is still saleable to a fair ettent, but prices show no signs of improvement. Rum is without inquiry, and prices quite nominal. ET—MARcu 21. the close of the market.) Was End. s. • South Hartlepool 20 d 6 Thornley 18 3 Trimdon Thornley 18 3 Heugh Hall 19 9 Whitworth.. .. l6 0 Frarnwellgate l9 9 Keiper Grange ..••• • • 2O 9 Kelloe 2l 3 Hetton.. . .... 2l 9 Hartlepool. .. 2l 6 Caradoc South Kenos 2l 0 Haswell 42—Sold, 35. COAL MARK . (Prioes of Coal per Ton at Byas'i's Beb s id e W es t s. d. Hartley ..16 9 Hastings Hartley ....16 6 Holywell 16 0 Tanfield Moor 12 6 Tanfield Moor Butes 12 6 Wylam ....16 6 Walls: End. South Durham ..... • ..19 2 Russell's Hetton ...... 20 9 Acorn Close .......... 19 9 Eden ................ 19 9 Stewart's ............. 21 9 Ships at markei 'OREIGN MAIL PACKET LIST. :tt the following table E signifies that lett ers are d espatche d by evening mails from London, and M by morning mails. Next DESTINATIONS. I Despatch Port of Mail of Mails. Despatch. due. Australia and Mauritius, via Southampton Apri ll2 , l lSonthamp. Ap/41111 Ditto, via Mar se ill es lAprlllB, B 1 April 4 Bahamas and Havana via New York April 13, E Liverpool.. April 12 Canada, &c. (by Canada. pckt ) Mar. 28, E Liverpool.. overdue Cape of Good Hope, Ascen sion, and St. Helena April 5, E Devonport April 3 China, Penang, and Singa pore, via Southampton ..., April 4, M Southamp. April,3 Ditto, via Marseilles Gibraltar, via Southampton ,M Southamp. Mar. 25 Honduras and Biewlields .... Aprill7, M Southamp. Aprlll4 India (Calcutta) and Ceylon, via-Southampton April 4, 31 Southamp. April 3 Ditto, via Marseill es India (Bombay), via South ampton Mar. 27, 31 Southamp. Mar. 25 Ditto, via Marseilles Lisbon, Brazils,Buenos Ay res, and F. Islands April 9,11 Southamp. April 5 Lisbon, Vigo, and Oporto Mar. 27, U Southam p . April 1 Malta, Egypt, and Aden, via Southampton Mar. 27 , M Southamp. Mar. 25 Ditto, via Marseilles Mexico and Havana Mar 26, E Mar. 28Southamp. Newfoundland Mar. 30, E Liverp oo l.. United States and British N America (by British packet) Mar. 24, E Liverpool.. liar. 29 Ditto (by U. S. packet) M Mar. 27, E Southamp. West Coast of Africa, a deira, and Tenerilie Mar. 23 B Liverpool.. April 19 West India, California, Vene zuela, ' Chill, Peru, Grey town, New Granada, &a -.April 2 M Sontbny.,., A In, 1 1 2.11 iSoutharap. !April 1 BIRTHS. BRISTOW.—On the 20th inst., at Boulogne-sur-Mer, the wife of Lieut.-Col. G. W. G. Bristow, of a son. DysoN.—On the 22d inst. at 5, Lower Berkeley-street, square, the wife of General Dyson, of a son. M A It IA GE S. HomFn&Y--WELny—On tho 22d inst., at Denton, John Richards Homfray, Esq., only son of John HowfraY, Esq., of Penllyn Castle, Glamorganshire, to Mary Eliza beth, the eldest surviving daughter of Sir Glynne Earle Welby, Bart., of Denton Hall, Lincolnshire. DEATHS. BAKER.—On the 21st inst., Onisow Loraine Baker, second son of the late Vice-Admiral Sir Henry Loraine Baker, Bart., aged 17. BLO 3 CRAM.—On the 21st inst., at Malden -road, Camden.* town, the Rev. Ch ar l es Bloxham, M.A., aged 86. K YNASTON.—On the 21st inst.; at 3, Esplanade, Ply mouth, Captain Frederick Rynaston, C. 8., aged, 46. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 119, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county of Middiebox, Saturday, March 240860. don__ 3 cla fro o m 1 James' Mr. J. 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