The Sun. — London, England, 1860-06-26 00:00:00

I'M PE MAL PARLIAMENT. HOU' B E OZ LORDS—(YESTERDAY.) The LORA CHANtELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clr,tk% PRIVATE BUSINESS. Tho "A‘ShVea Harbour Trusts, Horsham and Guildford Direct. RAWay, and Bedford and Cambridge Railway Bills war.; rett.'a a second time. Iffe. following bills were read a third time :—Fergus River Navigation Improvement, Doncaster and Tadcaster !Load, Oswestry and Newtown Railway (Additional Capi tal), and Marchburn, Kelso, and Lauder Eoad. THE SEE OF DURHAM. Earl GREY presented several petitions, praying that the revenues of the see of Durham might be retained and ex pended within the diocese. EDUCATION IN INDIA. Several petitions were presented, praying that the Bible might be introduced into any scheme for the education of the natiYes of India. THE SL AVE TRADE. Lord STATHEDEN moved that an humble address be presented to her Majesty praying her Majesty to be gra ciously pleased to appoint a consul at Mozambique with a view to promote the interest of commerce, and with the execution of the treaties between Great Britain and Portu gal upon the slave trade. The noble lord said he would not detain the house with any statement of the circumstances that had induced him t , ) bring the subject under their lord. ships' attention. In 1858 the official resident at that place retired,in consequence of circumstances that occurred between the Governments of France, Portugal, and Great Britain, and since that time no British Minister or resident had been appointed to his place, and the question he wished to have settled was whether It was desirable to have the post filled up. Independently of the importance of the presence of such a person with regard to trade and commerce, the operations of the slave trade loudly called for a consul at Mozambique, in order to prevent an increase in that detestable traffic. Whatever steps were taken to put down the slave trade on the western coast of Africa, they were rendered entirely useless as long as fivt vent was given to it in the East. The conspiracy that was formed by the slave dealers against the British Consul when he resided there proved the importance of • such a British resident, because they felt that presence was in effect a death-blow to a 'successfully carrying on of this unholy traffic. During the residence of Mr. Macleod he prevented no less than three French vessels from shipping slaves, under the name of Tree emigrants, for Reunion. In addition to such a proceeding, he had, moreover, been the means of strength ening the Viceroy at Mozambique, and inciting him to lend him his aid in preventing the shipment of slaves. He thought their lordships could not think that the French system was what it was said to be, a free immigration. If there was any doubt about it, he thought it was 'moved by the fact that after a cargo of negroes had been shipped for Reunion as free immigrants they rose, and having over powered the crew, whom they allowed to escape by the boats, become masters of the ship, in which they returned to port. If the appointment of a consul at Mozambique had only done the good he had mentioned, he thought it was quite enough to show the importance of the presence of such a person at Mozambique. It was clear that his with drawal had b eon a great satisfaction to the slave dealers, and he asked the Goveinment to say on what grounds they refused to make so desirable a re-appointment. If any reformation in the present system was desired, the autumn of the present year would afford a favourable opportunity for making it, ay a new Governor- General would arrive with fresh instructions from his Go vernment. That being so, it was of the highest importance that a British consul should be before that time appointed in order to use his influence and remonstrances against an increase of the slave trade. Considering that our estimates had reached £70,000,000, it was absurd to haggle at a paltry expenditure of £2,000 a year for an object that would be of immeasurable benefit to Africa. It could not be denied that, in the island of Reunion, there did exist a strong de :fire for negro labour. Now, no circumstance could be more fatal to the alliance between France and England than a suspicion should arise among our people that that alliance was only a peace-offering and a sacrifice to the slave trade. That alliance had survived many rude shocks, in spite of all that happened at the beginning of 1858, in spite of the ag gression of Portugal in the autumn of that year, and in spite of the gigantic estimates which France imposed upon this country ; but let it once be known that our efforts to sup press the slave trade had once relaxed, and the days of that alliance were over. It could not, therefore, be maintained that the absence of an English consul at Mozambique tended to strengthen the alliance ; on the contrary, he con tended that the results of the vacancy were most disastrous and unfortunate. The noble lord concluded by moving for the address of which he had given notice. Lord WODEHOUSE said he felt bound, on the part of her Majesty's Governmen`, to object to the motion of the noble lord, though not from any want of a sense of the im portance of the subject. It was true that the appointment of a consul was only one portion of the arrangements made to prevent the slave trade ; but that would naturally bring tha whole subject of the Java trade on the south coast of Africa under tile consideration of the house. The noble lord had correctly stated the circumstances of the appointment of a consul at Mozambique, who remained there till 1858. But he (Lord Wodehouse) could not agree with the noble lord that the proceedings of the consul there were so mild and effective as he seemed to think. Mr. M'Cloud was active and zealous, and made the best efforts in his power to prevent the slave trade; but he (Lord Wodehouse) was bound to add that he could not think that upon all occasions his ccnduct was characterised by judgment, which was quite as neee3sary as zeal. (Hear, hear.) The question had now arisen 'whether that post should be again filled up. Moe t of their lordships had read the papers which at vari ous times had been presented to the house on the subject of slave trade, and were aware that the possessions of Portugal in south Africa were very few—not exceeding three or four or five points on the coast. The sovereignty of Por tugal over those places had been acknowledged by a treaty betwecat this country and Portugal; and in order to pre vent the slave trade being carried on it would be necessary that we should have a consul there who would be able to set A ith effect, because it was clear that the efforts of Por tugal alone would not be able to effect that object. Under these peculiar circumstances it was a matter of serious con sideration in what manner they should deal with this ques tion. There was no doubt that the slave trade did prevail to .a great extent on the south coast of Africa, but he be lieved the only means by which it could be prevented would be to enable the natives of the interior of the country to follow some legitimate occupation, in order to teach them to turn the natural advantages of the soil and climate to account. (Hear, hear) All these objects were sought to be accomplished by Dr. Livingstone'e expedition, and he had met with very cons derable success. Under these cir cumst..nces.the government thought they could not do bet ter than encourage the expedition of Dr. Livingstone, and they had accordingly this year proposed a far larger vote to the House of Commons for that object than in any former year. They had proposed at first a vote of £3,000 for the expenses of the expedition, and afterwards an additional annual vote for three years of £2,500, while the extra and temporary expenditure for the present year would be £3,000, making a total of £11,500, of which about £5,000 would be required to build a vessel of peculiar construction for Dr. Livingstone. By these means that expedition would have fair play ; and they should wait to see its re sult before they made any further arrangements for the suppression of the slave trade. (Hear, hear.) He did not mean to say that a consul at Mozambique might not be very useful; but he did not think it desirable at the pre sent moment to reappoint a consul there, though his noble friend'at the head of the Foreign-office said that at some future time there might be no objection to doing so. He believed that, whether on the south coast or the west coast of Africa, or wherever else the slave trade flourished, the only effective means of putting it down would be to •show the natives how to engage in . some legitimate commerce, lay a sure foundation for the ultimate suppres sion of the slave trade. (Hear, hear.) But he must add that the real source of the evil lay across the Atlantic. (Hear.) -As long as the Spanish Government did not carry out their engagements with Cuba, the best efforts of Eng land to suppress the slave trade must, to a great extent, fail ; and he grieved to add that the most recent accounts from Cuba showed that the slave trade was carried on there o n a large and organised scale. He hoped his noble friend would bee satisfied with this explanation. He might rest assured that the subject had received the best consideration by his nOble friend at the head of the Forcign-otlice, and that whenever a consul could be appointed at Mozambique, who would be able to act with effect, it should be done. (Hear.) Lord BROUGHAM entirely agreed in the latter part of the views of the noble lord who had just sat down as to the absolute necessity of cultivating commercial and agri • cultural pursuits among the natives of the south coast . of Africa, which would be of all other means the best and surest to extinguish the slave trade, which was that great obstacle in the way of agricultural and commercial pros P e rltY• (Ilear, hear.) The Governor of Mozambique was paid his salary in a way which had a direct influence on the encoura a year_ _ a gement of th e s l ave t ra d e . H e was pa id £9OO 'nun greatly less than his necessa . ry ex penses; but even that was paid by orders of the council of Mozambique, Which was entirely composed of notorious slave dealers and their received his pa ll y Accordingly, the governor e i k wo P u r l o a a o g o n T o t t i t s cn as ho shut his eyes to their proceedings. say that the present governor took an active part in the sla v e trade ; but governors b e f ore him slid, who receiv e d so mu chper head in pr o po r ti on t o tba success with which their e nts carried on th e s l ave would of D r . Living trade in the interior. No doubttl7: xp stone was of great importan ce, and id hPamo but in influence on the suppression of the slaveav trade; the meantime they must recollect that the men was far greater than the profit o f Q e r g fit of tellin g as long as men were allowed to be sold in thleienotert tto.)? nr, th e , and na tive chief would not only not encourage but would pre vent the development of a griculture. That was the easeon the west, coast of Africa, and so it would b e on the east coas t. It was not only the Portuguese Government that encouraged the slave trade. The Spanish Government did ess to a still greater degree, and the (um against that Go .iftitsailpni was krealatible, They had the statement of the commissary judge at the Havannah,from which it appeared that 50 slave-trading vessels left Cuba in two months of 1858 for the coast of Africa, each vessel capable on the ave rage of transporting 600 slaves, so that they had the fright ful amount of 30,000 taken from their count .) and their home in the course of two months only. Ho id not mean to multiply that by six, because the slave affic was not carried on with the same activity throw; out the whole year. Commodore Wise wrote :—" The ave trade has taken a frightful extension. New and formidable joint stock companies called ' Expeditions to Africa' have been formed, and so openly that on the Havannah Exchange the shares in these companies are advertised, and the price of each share is about 1,000 dollars." Thus they re duced to a system this abominable traffic. He had it from a gentleman who held a high official appointment that in his opinion no less than 18,000 slaves passed that way in the course of the year ; and his noble friend at the head of the Foreign-office estimated the amount of the slave trade traffic in the course of the year at from 36,000 to 40,000 persons. Could anything be more atrocious then than the conduct of the Spanish Government ? His noble friend behind him, writing to Mr. Buchanan, their Minister at Madrid, said, "If Spain honestly performed her treaty engagements with this country, the traffic in human beings would cease. The flagrant violation by the Spanish autho rities of the engagements contracted with this country must tend seriously to impair the friendly relations so desirable to be maintained between the two countries." It had been said, "how can Spain put a stop to the slave trade ?" He would answer that question by putting another, " How did Brazil put a stop to the slave trade ?" The Spanish Govern ment had as much power over the authorities of Cuba as the Brazilian Government had over their subjects, but Brazil, much to her honour, had abolished the slave trade. No less than 60 convictions had taken place before the Vice-Admi ralty Court at Sierra Leone before 1851. But since 1851, when Brazil abolished the trade, the number came down to 12, and last year there were three condemnations, and no more. In Brazil a man of colour, provided he was free, was received on the same footing as a white man, was as capable of enjoying any public trust or office, and in society he had the same acceptance as the white man. His right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had lately received from Mr. Edward Bryden, an African gentleman in Liberia, where he was engaged in the honourable office of teaching, a complimentary letter, and a better written or better com posed letter he never read. It contained appropriate quo tations from the Latin and Greek authors, which proved distinctly that he was a person of high classical attain ments. He could not help regretting the prejudices that pre vailed in some quarters of the world, and especially in the United States of America, on this subject of colour; and this put him in mind of an anecdote which was told to himself and his noble and learned friend Lord Lyndhurst by an American gentleman who had been an envoy of the United States, in the south of Europe, and afterwards at the Hague. This gentleman told them he had made a tour in Cuba, and that he had been most hospitably aria elegantly entertained for three days by a negro country gentleman, who resided in a magnificent house. When leaving he thanked him for his hospitality, but the negro gentleman, interrupting him, said, "I am a person above all prejudices, and if I find a man well bred, well educated, and well prin cipled, I hold out the hand of fellowship to him, even if he be as white as that table cloth." (Laughter.) He hoped the people of the United States would hold out the hand of fel howship to a well educated, well principled, and well man nered man, even though his colour was as black as a hat. He knew it would take a long time to effect this change, but he lived in the hope that it would take place. He enter tained this hope although it had been actually laid down in the" Dred Scott case" by the Supreme Court of the United States that what was called the " Missouri compromise" was unconstitutional, and therefore not to be regarded, and that Illinois was unfit to be considered a free state notwith standing that compromise. The Chief Justice and one of his brethren laid it down as law that neither parents who had been imported as slaves nor their descendants, whether they had become free or not, were to be acknowledged as part of the people, but were to be regarded as beings of an inferior order, altogether unfit to associate with the white race in social or political relations, so far inferior that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect, and that the negro might justly and lawfully be reduced to slavery for the benefit of the white man. (Hear, hear.) In Ar kansas they had lately come to a resolution that free persons of colour should either be reduced to slavery, or driven out of the country. It was in vain to expect any active operations on the part of the United States in the suppression of the slave trade.. It was true tfiey had made one or two captures, but the offenders escaped punishment. If they were sincere, why not make the slave trade a capittil offence ? At present, as soon as the slaves were landed, the Government cared not what became of the vessel. Slaves bought for £4 on the coast of Africa sold at a profit of 1,400 per cent. In one case a slave ship had been run ashore in stormy weather to escape a cruiser; and the scene occa sioned by the attempted escape of the slaves was described as horrible in the extreme. Hundreds flung themselves into the sea, and out of 1,200 only 340 were saved, and 40 of those died afterwards. He only knew of one worse case, where the captain and officers of a slave ship, which was chased, got into a boat, and attempted to set fire to the vessel. It was to be regretted that our efforts to stop this horrible traffic amongst the Spaniards and Portuguese should only hitherto have led to worse atrocities. 'We had one influence over the Spaniards at this moment in conse quence of the new treaty ; let us refuse them the benefit of that treaty unless they abolished the slave trade. The Bishop of OXFORD regretted to hear that it was not considered fitting by the Government at pre sent to appoint a consul at Mozambique. The grounds assigned for that decision had not carried conviction to his mind. It was said that Dr. Livingstone, by open ing a legitimate commerce in the south-eastern part of the district, was endeavouring to produce the same effect as would result from the appointment of a consul. No man appreciated more highly than he did the laudable efforts of Dr. Livingstone, and the singular capacity of the man for bringing what he had undertaken to a successful issue; but he was convinced, from all the information that reached him, that unless Dr. Livingstone's efforts in the 1 interior and up the rivers were backed by the consular in fluence of England at the foot of the Mozambique they:would be almost practically paralysed. 'What had been done at the southern branch of the Zambesi mouths ? Until he discovered that outlet, the Portuguese Government had kept us in ignorance that there was a free passage that way, and had sent the whole flow of the slave traffic by that channel. As soon as it was discovered by Dr. Living stone, they put a custom-house there, to prevent the illegi timote traffic. The real question was, did the Portuguese Government desire, or did they not, that there should be a legitimate traffic planed on that coast? It was as plain as possible that the representatives of the Portuguese na tion there desired nothing so ardently as to prevent all legitimate commerce, knowing that that and the slave trade could not co-exist. That being so, their efforts could only be defeated by the presence of an authorised representative pf the English Government. It was said that the Portu guese authorities had little power to put down the traffic. On the other hand, he believed it was the direct influence of the Portuguese which had led the native chieftains to encourage the trade. They had refused to do so until officers in the Portuguese uniform had gone up with the slave dealers. The whole settlement of Mozambique was made ancillary to the carrying on of the slave traffic. Signals were provided along the coast to give notice , f the approach of English cruisers. The temptations held out to the igno rant natives were strengthened by the encouragement of the Portuguese Government. They gave miserable salaries to their agents on that coast, knowing that those agents would pay themselves by winking at the slave-trade. But if in the face of those enormities there was an English con sul there, the Portuguese Government would be com elled to send out men of greater honour as governors ; and the moment this was done, the efforts of the slave traders would be paralysed. If this were done, along with the op ning of a legitimate traffic from Dr. Livingstone's efforts, the two things migLtby God's blessing, deliver that part of Africa from the curse of the slave trade. No extensive armaments were required —no alteration of policy—no danger to our alliances. All that was neces33ary was that on that coast, where Britain was spending not only such a large sum of money, but lives which no money could replace, England should be represented in her moral feeling by a consular rept esentative,who could bring to bear on the Portuguese court at home those claims of humanity which Portugal had acknowledged in treaties, but which she suffered her governors to set aside. lie therefore felt the greatest dis appointment in hearing that there was no intention to re store the consul at Mozambique. Ile believed that the interests of Portugal herself were most deeply at stake in this being remedied. She had been mainly enabled to re tain the hold of that coast through the influence of England. Portugal might derive a richer return from that colony than she had ever done from Brazil, were it not for the wasting and desolating influence of the slave trade. The English vole should bear in mind that they incurred a vast and peculiar. responsibility in this matter, by mainly elle : billy Portugal to keep its almost nominal hold on atal coast. But for this there would have been revolt against the Portuguese Government ; the power now in the hands of the Imaum of Muscat -would have spread down the coast, and it would have been a blessing to the naives that a Maliommedan potentate should be their ruler rather than a Christian prince. He trusted that the resolution of the Government was not final, but that it would be reconsidered, and that this great boon to humanity —one implying so little sacrifice—would not be withheld in this critical day of the attempt to ameliorate the condition of the African race. The Duke of SOMERSET observed that if treaties or negotiation could have put an end to the slave trade, it would have ceased long ago. He wished to set the house and the public right on ene point which had been alluded to by the right rev. prelate. He spoke as if the appointment of a consul at Mczambique f iras the only thing that remained to be done to put an end to the slave tr de. That was totally and entirely a mistake view. Tie had seen the reports of &ricers from both the east and west coast of Africa, and he could only say that the slave trade had been increasing and was now increasing on both coasts. As long as nations claimed exemption from the right of their ships being visited by cruisers, though those ships might carry with them all the a ppurtenances s of the s l ave t r ad e , an d sa il close to our ves le, e it was quite idle to say that sending a consul to Mozam bique would do any good at all. To entertain such anotion was only deceiving ourselves. We could not touch vessels under the American or French flags ; the captains of those vessels knew that well, and they openly defied us. The east coast was nearly as bad as the west ; the slave trade was now as rife there as it was once at Sierra Leone. A fatal blow could only be struck at that trade by stopping it at Cuba. At present vessels under the French or American flag might fire upon our cruisers, if any interference were attempted. The slave ships might not be French or American, but they hoisted those flags to protect them in their horrible traffic. As long as this went on, it was quite idle to attach any im portance to sending a consul to Mozambique. Whether there was one there or not was quite immaterial, regard be ing had to the much greater importance of other questions. The best hope that he entertained was from the co-opera- tion of the Americans. They had latterly sent some steamers expressing an earnest desire to co-operate with us in putting down the traffic on the West Coast of Africa, and if they co-operate with us cordially, great advantage would result, Lerd BROUGHAM said it had come to his knowledge that a captain of one of the Cunard steamers—a service which was assisted by the government to the extent of £s,ooo—had recently acted upon the rule established by the "Dred Scott" case, and had refused to receive as a first class passenger any person having the slightest tinge of colour. He had heard of a lady being refused a passage under these circumstances. Earl GRANVILLE said he thought after what had fallen from the noble lord, their lordships would prefer to leave it to the executive to decide at what time a consul should be sent to Mozambique. After the declaration which had fallen from the Under-Secretary of the Foreign office, the government would perhaps be justified in resist ing the motion, but as such a course might lead to a false impression as to the lukewarmness of the government on the subject of the slave trade, he was unwilling to adopt it. No one could doubt the sincerity of the motives of the noble lord, the Under. Secretary, and as the house would proba bly think that the time for sending the consul had better be left to the executive he would appeal to his noble friend not to press his motion. The Bishop of OXFORD said he hoped his noble friend would not assent to the proposal of the noble earl. The ut most that the house could do was to express its opinion on the question, and if they did so, the country would be con vinceel that they had taken the only step which was of en to them. He, there fore, trusted that the noble lord would press his motion. Lord STRATHEDEN said it would only be necessary for him to detain the house sufficiently long to indicate the cour e he intended to take. He protested, however, against the version which the noble lord the Under-Secretary had given of his (Lord Stratheden's) decision when he endea voured to treat this as a question of the merit or demerit of our former consul at Mozambique. He had never raised that question. There was not one remark of the noble lord which did not point to the dispersion of our naval squadron, and the withdrawal of our consular establishment on the African coast, and ho could not help expressing his aston ishment at the language which had fallen from the noble lord. He felt that he had no course left to him but to divide the house. Their lordships then disLided, and the numbers were— Contents Non-contents 6-5 The motion for an address was consequently carried. Their lordships adjourned at ten minutes to 8. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Lords' amendments to the following bills were con sidered and agreed to, and the bills were ordered for third reading :—Disley and Hayfield Railway; London and Blackwall Railway; North British and Peebles and Jed burgh Railway Companies ; Salisbury and Yeovil Rail. way ; and Upper Mersey Dues. The Kilkenny Junction Railway Bill, and Kilrush and Kilkee Railway and Poulnasherry Embankment Bill were considered and ordered for third reading. PETITIONS. Several petitions wore presented against the alleged ag gression of the Lords on the privileges of the House of Commons; against the Sunday Trading Bill; from St. Olaves, Southwark, in favour of the Metropolitan Local Management Amendment Act (No. 2), against the High ways Bill, &c. CIVIL CONTINGENCIES. Mr. A. SMITH moved for returns of the particulars of the sum of £3,541 16s. paid for knights of the several orders, giving the names of the several knights, the par ticular order, the special expenses incurred on behalf of each, and date of the same.—Ordered. ORANGE PROCESSIONS IN IRELAND. passed. Mr MAGUIItE asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, if it be true that a large body of persons, styling themselves and known as Orangemen, and amounting to at least one thousand in number, marched in procession into the town of Cookstown, county Tyrone, on the evening of the 15th instant, accompanied by drums and fifes, and playing party tunes. Mr. CAItDWELL said he had received no official ac count of any such outrage as that alluded to having taken place at Cookstown, but he understood that some disturb ances similar in character had occurred in the neighbour hood. However, steps had been adopted to preserve the peace, and from the report ho had received from the local magistrate and the constabulary there was every reason to believe that such arrangements had been made as to render the recurrence of such outrages in future more improbable. BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY (SALA RIES, &c.) On the report of the committee on this subject being brought up, Sir IL WILLOUGHBY moved as an amendment to the resolution of the committee that the word " compensations" should be omitted. The amount of compensation money charged on the Consolidated Fund of late years was most excessive, and very unjust in its operation on the tax payers. As regarded Chancery, in the year 1856 there was no less than £92,000 paid in compensation to the officers connected with that branch of the law courts, and with reference to bankruptcy there was paid in compensation more than £20,000. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE asked the Attorney-General if it was intended to fill up the vacancy amongst the com missioners in bankruptcy caused by the death of Mr. Com missioner Murphy. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it was not in tended to fill up the vacancy in question, but arrangements had been made for the business of the court being trans acted until such time as the bill to be founded on the reso lutiois of the committee was passed. With regard to the question of compensation, there was no doubt the amount already granted was very large. However, it was not proposed to create any new compensations, but merely to discharge those granted in 1836. When the alteration was made in the bankruptcy law, it was expected that there would be a large increase in the amount of business transacted in the bankruptcy courts, but that expectation had been dis appointed, as the public were not satisfied with these courts, and the business decreased from year to year. Mr. BARROW supported the views of Sir H. Wil loughby. Colonel FRENCH called on the country gentlemen pre sent not to vote for this measure, which deeply affected their interests, and was one of the most monstrous bills ever introduced. The house divided, and the numbers were— For the amendment lll Against Majority —l3 BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY BILL. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that this bill was founded on the resolution which -the house, by their vote, had set aside, and therefore he felt bound to postpone the bill. (" Hear, hear," and " Oh, oh.") Mr. MALINS said that from questions which ht;d been asked him, it was evident that several hon members were not acquainted with the subject on which they had just voted. The proposed bill did credit to the Government, but he thought when hon. members took on themselves the responsibility they did by their recent vote, that the Government was perfectly right in declining to legislate on the subject. Mr. BRIGHT recommended the right hon. gentleman the Attorney-General to reconsider his decision, and allow a day to elapse before he decided on postponing the bill, which was very favourably regarded by the mercantile community. At the same time, however, it was considered that it was proposed to create new compensations, and that the amount was too large. Mr. BOUVERI LS, as ore of those members who had voted in favour of the amendment, defended his conduct. Mr. MOWBRAY also vindicated his conduct. After s me further discussion on the order of the day for the house goitig into committee on the bill, the debate was adjourned until Thursday next. EXCISE AND ASSESSED TAXES ACT. The, house resolved itself into committee on this bill. Mr. LAING moved the nov resolutions on the game certificates. Mr. CAIRD moved an amendment, to the effect that the words "conies" and "cony" be omitted from the resolu tions. After some discussion, Mr. LAING said that it would be necessary to have an Act of Parliament to give validity to these resolutions, so that ho trusted they would not be opposed. He explained that the object of the Government was merely ti ,, ancial, and he defended the resolutions as being calculated to work beneficially, and increase to some email extent the revenue. Sir J. TROLLOPE said that as he understood the reso lutions, their object was to protect the rights of landowners, who were not deprived by them of the power to allow any persons to kill rabbits on their lands. Some discussion ensued, in the course of which The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there was no intention to alter the law as regarded rabbits, as would be seen when the bill founded on the resolutions was introduced. Ultimately the resolutions were agreed to. AN;TRUTHER UNION HARBOUR BILL. On the order of the day that the amendments in this bill be considered. ➢lr. BLACKBURN said tk.e port of Anstruthcr was so small and insignificant that in one week only one vessel entered it, and that was a coal vessel of 50 tons burden. It was proposed to lend £20,000 on this harbour, which would be a waste of public m hey. He moved that the six teenth clause which gave power to grant this public money be ; struck out of the bill. Mr. LAING said it was unfortunate that the hon. mem ber was not present during the two somewhat lengthy dis • cussions they had had on this bill. If he had been he would have heard it fully explained that there was in fact no advance of public money. The object of the bill was to enable the commissioners of the port of Anstruther to im pose certain rates and tolls, and the Exchequer Loan Com missioners were empowered to lend a certain sum of money on security of those rates and tolls. The other portion of the money consisted of a sum advanced by the Fishery Board of Scotland out of a grant of £3,000 a year from par • liament, which . had been given ever since the reign of George 111. So far from the port of Anstruther being in significant, there were 400 fishing boats, carrying on an average six persons each, who fished off the coast of Fife, to whom this harbour would be of the greatest use. Mr. STEUART supported the motion. He said he had received a statement from certain inhabitants of the Cupar burghs, constituents of the hon. member for St. Andrews, who denied his statement that they were willing to tax themselves for the improvement of this harbour. No doubt if the Exchequer Loan Commissioners advanced any money on this project the money wou'd be lost. . Mr. W. WILLIAMS said the house ought to be much obliged to the two hon. gentlemen opposite for calling at tention to this matter, whi l ch was evidently a gross job. He hoped the house would not sanction a bill putting any such charge on the public revenue. Mr. E. ELLICE, jun., defended the bill, which he said was requisite to enable the parties who were to borrow this money to transfer, as security for it, the municipal funds which they held in trust. There were about 400 boats em ployed in the fishery at that place, and from the want of protection on the coast they were exposed to the greatest danger whenever they went out to sea, and every winter there was a lamentable loss of life. It was to provide against this that memorials bad repeatedly been presented to the Treasury and Admiralty Boards for such moderate assistance as would be afforded by the present bill. The house then divided on the question whether clause 16, the omission of which had been moved, should form part of the bill— For the clause 142 Against it Majority —7s The bill, with its other amendments, was therefore con sidered and agreed to, and the third reading fixed for this day. The Tithe Commutation Bill was read a third time, and SPIRITS BILL. The house went into committee on this bill, and the seve ral clauses were agreed to up to the 23d, upon which Mr. CRAUFURD called the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the propriety of allowing the distillers of British spirits a drawback of the import duty on foreign grain employed for distillation, a similar privilege having been admitted in the case of molasses. The duty was only is. a quarter ; but foreign grain was used by distillers to a very large extent, and after what had been said about it when the duty on foreign spirits was fixed, he hoped this boon would be granted to them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was quite correct that when the details of the import duty to be imposed on foreign spirits were under the consideration of the house, the question was raised, at the desire of the distillers, who wished to have a drawback or compensation allowed thorn for the duty they paid on foreign grain. It had been found, however, that there would be considerable difficulty in distinguishing between other foreign grain and the foreign grain intended for that purpose ; and as the ob ject to be gained by it, in the interest of the distillers, was but a very small one, he thought the question, as regarded them, had been substantially disposed of by the other al lowancei which had been made, and the advantages granted to the distiller of British spirits. The remainder of the bill was agreed to, and the house resumed. OXFORD UNIVERSITY (No. 2) BILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the object of this bill was to confer certain powers respecting the amendment of the statutes relating to professorships, similar to the powers which had been granted to the Uni versity of Cambridge. It had received the sanction of the authorities at Oxford. The bill was read a second time. REFRESHMENT HOUSES AND WINE LICENSES (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion for the second reading of this bill, Mr. HENNESSY expressed a hope that the bill would not be proceeded with at that moment, especially as no copy of the bill had yet reached Ireland. It had been under stood that it was confined to England, and there was the greatest objection in Ireland to its extension to that country. Mr. M'CANN had heard of no objection to the bill ex• cept from the Alliance, and he thought it would be an ex cellent measure to extend it to Ireland. Mr. MAGUIRE had certainly understood that it was not to be extended to Ireland, and he thought it would be as well to try the experiment first in England. Col. DUNNE had also understood that the bill was to be confined to England ; but he must confess that he had never put much trust in that statement, for he knew that towards the end of the session, when many Irish members were out of town, a bill was sure to be brought in for its extension. Tho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not aware of the existence of any great aversion to the bill in Ireland, and denied that any pledge had been given that it should not be extended to the whole of the United King dom. As regarded Scotland there might indeed have been some reason for not immediately proceeding with a bill for that purpose, inasmuch as a commission was sitting on the subject of public-houses ; but that re won no longer existed, as the commissioners had reported in fav our of the measure, and their report would be almost immediately accessible to hon. members. As for the statement of the gallant colonel, that the Government had given a pledge but that he knew they would break it, he really thought that the gallant member ought to be a little more supported by facts before he gave himself credit for such foresight. Mr. BRADY hoped that the laws of Ireland would be assimilated to those of England as regarded the sale of liquor, for at present no one could obtain refreshments in the former country before nine in the morning. Mr. WMATION hoped that, at all events, a delay of a week or ten days would be allowed before the committal of the bill, so that Irish members might have an opportunity of making themselves acquainted with the feelings of their constituents on the subject. Mr. SULLIVAN felt sure that the introduction of the measure into Ireland would be received by the people as a great boon. He trusted, however, the Government would preserve the same principles as were carried out in the Eng lish bill, and that the excise should have the privilege of granting the license. (Hear, hear.) Mr. MONSELL agreed with the hon. gentleman that the bill ought to be extended to Ireland, and at the earliest opportunity. The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed that day week. ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION, &c., BILL. Upon the order of the day, that the adjourned debate on amendment on the second reading of this bill should be resumed, Mr. G C. BENTINCK said that he principally objected to the bill because it proposed to transfer all chapter pro perty to the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners with • out making any provision for those whose claims were con demned unheard in 1840. He thought those claims most just, and that the bill ought not to pass without their recog nition, especially after what had taken place before the Ca thedral Commission issued in 1852, under Lord Derby's Go vernment, when those claims were fully considered and their equity satisfactorily established. A great number of the cathedrals of this country were not like those of the old foundation, but were Protestant establishments founded by Henry VIII. for three distinct purposes—first, for religious instruction and the celebration of divine worship ; secondly, for purely educational purposes; and, thirdly, for works of charity, and also for public works. For the purpose of con ducting the religious services there were deans, canons, pre - bends, minor canons, and lay clerks; fur the second pur pose, there wore head-masters, under-masters, and scholar ships, and for the purposes of charity, old men were to be maintained, and large sums to be expended for public works. What did they find under existing circumstances? That the deans and canons, although they had been reformed, still received very large stipends, whereas the minor canons and others below them received scarcely anything at all. Before the act of 1840 the minor canons had been stripped of so much of their emoluments that they had barely the income of a curate, and the consequence was that many were compelled to subsist en the money taken for showing the church. After the act of 1810 their position was to a certain extent improved, but since then the cathedral services had very much multiplied, and a larger share of duties had de volved upon them. He was persuaded, however, that if they laid their case before the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, their application would meet with a direct refusal. The next body of men who were entitled to consideration were the lay clerks, who had been ill-treated and plundered to such an extent that hitherto their pay had not exceeded that of a domestic servant or journeyman tradesmen, and yet under the present system they had no chance of getting any addi tion to their miserable stipend. Then there was the case of the choristers, who had been still worse treated than the lay clerks, and he thought that, before the Ecclesiastical Commissioners attempted to divert the sums of money belonging to the foundation, they should provide for the maintenance of those poor boys. All those cathedrals of the new foundation were to maintain 40 or 50 boys entirely free of expense, and a certain proportion of them were after wards to be sent to the university, but in many cases those schools had almost ceased to exist. He maintained these cathedral schools would be of very great use, especially in the poorer cathedral towns. Nobody could deny that if the bless ings of education were diffused throughout the country by means of such cathedral schools, the public generally would be very much benefited. In every one of these cathedrals provision had been made for altnsmen, but in many in stances the ahnsmen had altogether vanished. Then cans the question of the fabric. Hon. gentlemen might have seen a touching appeal which had recently been put forth by the dean and chapter of St. Paul's to the public to subscribe to the fabric. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners contended they had nothing to do with the fabric, but what could be more proper than for them to keep the church in repair ? He had lately received a letter from Mr. Penrose, the surveyor of St. Paul's, in which that gentleman stated the total income for keeping that vast building in repair in the trying atmosphere of London was £827, and that it was only by the. most painful , economy the building could be maintained in even tolerable condition. No one could deny the utility of our cathedrals at the present day, for wherehundreds formerly worshipped in them there were now thousands; yet' the Ecclesiastical Commissioners re fused to recognise the claims made for the restoration and maintenance of these ancient edifices. Again the cathedral schools throughout the country, whose usefulness it was so desirable to extend, received no assistance from the com missioners, and these and other disregarded claims to which he could allude showed that the more they adopted the principle of centralisation the more they destroyed all local sympathy. The hon. member concluded by stating that he would support the amendment. Mr. HOWES corroborated the statement of the hon.and learned member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Selwyn) with respect to the expenses of the Ecclesiastical Commission, and denied that his hon. and learned friend had attacked the commissioners, observing that, on the con trary, he had bdrne ample testimony to their honour and ability. The question before the house was a very large one, and it was injurious to the interests both of the Church and State to deal with it as this bill did, by piecemeal. The measure was objectionable not only for its 4rrorsof omis sion, but for its errors of commission, and if it were not re ferred to a select committee, he trusted that the Home Sec retary would take the whole subject into his consideration, with a view if possible to remedy those defects. Mr. MALINS regretted that a bill of such importance should have been pressed nn that evening, which, it was in tended, should be devoted to other business, and when very few members who took an interest in the question were pre sent. With regared to the provisions of the bill, he entirely concurred with his hon. and learned friend (Mr. Selwyn), who made a very remarkable speech upon a former occa sion. He could not conceive a more clumsy and ridiculous piece of machinery than had been provided by this bill. The plan to be pursued ought to be that of separating the lands according to their value, and then to hand over the proportion set apart for the deans and chapters, and let the Ecclesiastical commissioners take the remainder. In prin ciple what objection could there be to the plan, for were, not the Ecclesiastical Commissioners appointed for the per.. pose of distributing all the church property ? He would ask the house to consider whether it would be possible under this bill to have any of the advantages which ought to exist as between landlord and tenant. Generally speaking, the deans and chapters had not large property, and they easily became acquainted with their estates, and selected men who could and did properly attend to them, and if the lessees wished to communicate with the lessors there was no difficulty in the way of their doing so. But they would find great difficulty in commun eating with the commis sioners, who would never be able to visit and inspect a tithe of their estates. He was one of those who held that there were great disadvantages in having such large proper ties that the possessors could not know all about them. He had been recently engaged in a cause where it turned out that the landlord had not visited his estate for 25 years. Now there was a great disadvantage in a man n t being able to visit his estate for a quarter of a century. How was the relation of landlord to stand in such cases ? Why it became a mere question of local agents —surveyor and land stewards ; and the Ecclesiastical Commissioners would ne cessarily from the very nature of the case be mere strangers to the properties they would hay e to deal with. (Hear.) Well, then, what were the advantages of this system of centralisation ? What benefit would the public gain by it ? None whatever. There was another objectionable feature in the bill. It provided that after 1884 the leasesrat pre sent in existence should not be renewed. Would that be justifiable ? and was that a clause which the house ought to sanction ? The present renewable right was recognised by the law of the land as property, and the conrts threw obligations upon those who became entitled to it. What was the r üblic necessity for making the alteration contemplated ? Convenient it might be, but it was no more convenient than the confiscation of property generally, and the house might just as well confiscate the property of the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department. Certainly there were some objections to the present leases in regard to building, and for other pur poses, but would that be a reason why they should take this property away from the lessees after 24 years had elapsed, and perhaps by so - doing place them and their families in beggary ? He admitted that something ought to be done to improve the holdings of this kind of property, but that was no reason why they should confiscate it. He would sug gest that there should be a compulsory obligation on the lessors to sell their interests to the lessees, or upon the lessees to sell their interests to the lessors, one or the other. What objection could there be to that plan ? None. For all the Ecclesiastical Commissioners could desire was that the property they might become possessed of for religious and sacred purposes should come to them by means which would not beggar families and be obtained unjustly. He was sorry to see that Parliament year after year proposed to confiscate property, - either belonging to individuals or public bodies, and if this bill passed the commissioners would, 24 years hence, take all this property absolutely. What present effect would that have upon the property ? Why it would dimi nish the value of it by one-third. Now in passing such a measure they should take care that they did not commit an injustice, but dealt fairly by all parties. For these reasons ho objected to the second reading of the bill, and should therefore vote against it. Lord J. RUSSELL should not have taken part in the debate, and would not now go into any discussion of the details of the bill, the right hon. gentleman the member for Oxford having completely answered the objection of the hon. and learned member for Cambridge University during the previous debate ; but there had been certain principles put forward by the hon. and learned gentleman who had just spoken from which he could not forbear expressing his entire dissent. The hon. and learned gentleman had put altogether out of sight the original object of these measures, which was that out of the large incomes the bishops for merly enjoyed, and the estates of the deans and chapters, some provision should be made for the augmentation of small livings, and some provision for the spiritual destitu tion of church property left insufficient or oftentimes no provision at all. For that purpose it became necessary to take into consideration the manner in which the property was distributed, and how that distribution might be im proved. For instance, as the hon. and learned gentleman said, first, that they might give what was proper to the bishops and the chapters for their support, and take the rest and apply it to such ecclesiastical purposes as he had mentioned. Now, take the case of the bishopric of Durham. Formerly the Bishop of Durham had an income of £23,000 a year. The ecclesiastical commissioners con s id ere d £B,OOO a year sufficient; but it would have been obviously an ab surd arrangement, when they reduced his income to £BOOO, that he should have the management of the whole of the property, producing £23,000 a year. Then the principle of the bill as itstood gave this alternative, that the £21,000 a-ycar—for he ought to have stated that £2,000 a year had been taken away previously—should in- the first in stance go to the ecclesiastical commissioners, and that a portion of the lands, to the extent of £B,OOO a year should be settled upon the bishop, the remainder of the estates being disposed of by the commissioners. (Hear, hear.) In the same way with regard to the chapters. The hon. and learned member had referred to the case of Ely, in which 4-sths remained with the chapter; but in Durham, where there were formerly 12 canons, only four of whom were to remain, 8-12ths were taken away for the increase of small livings and the relief of spiritual destitution. While, therefore, 8-12ths or 2-3ds, were to be paid over to the ecclesiastical commissioners, it would be absurd to leave the management of tho entire property in the dean and chapter. The hon. and learned gentleman, however, objected to the control of this property being left to this centralised body. They had to consider for what purpose was the property to be Lpplied. There were some clergymen whose livings pro duced £75 or £BO a year ; one of the purposes was to add to these £7O a year, so as to raise them to £l5O. Then there was £2OO a year, perhaps, to be provided in certain cases as a provision for the endowment of now benefices. These were to be supplied by the ecclesiastical commissioners out of the surplus funds in their hands arising from the sources referred to; and it would be certaiely inconsistent that when these duties were imposed upon them the property out of which the means were to come should be left in the hands of those ecclesiastical bodies who had now only a limited interest in it. But then came the question raised by the honourable and learned gentleman—was it just to make an alteration in the tenure of this kind of property, and instead of granting leases for a certain number of lives, they should be granted for a fixed term not exceeding for the present twenty-two years ? Upon this point he would not say that the honourable and learned gentleman mis represented, but that he misunderstood the principle of the bill. The hon. and learned gentleman said that the re presentatives of the Church—viz., the bishops, deans, and chapters, had no other right in this ecclesiastical property than that of receiving fines on the renewal of the leases. But if he had looked into the matter he would know that formerly, in the time of Elizabeth, it was by a mistake thought three lives or 21 years were equivalent, and it was the habit to leave the property for three lives, on the fal ling in of which the lease expired. The lessee had no right to put in a life—on the contrary, the absolute right was with the lessor; and it depended often on the merest acci dent whether the lessee had a property almost equivalent to freehol I property or a property his right in which would altogether expire in a certain number of years. Take the case of an old bishop dying—he might possibly be'succeeded by a young man of 30 or 31 years of age, and on succeeding to the see he might find a particular property dependent upon three very old lives. He might refuse all applications to put in a new life, choosing to run his life against the lives named in the lease, and thus securing to himself the disposal of a valuable lease, which he might give to his own family. Or when the two first lives dropped, he might set his life against the third, and refuse to renew under some enormous fine, which he knew could not be paid. This proved that the right was not in the lessee, but in the les sor. (Hoar.) The hon. and learned gentleman knew the by an abuse of his poor a bishop Once allowed all the lives to expire in the case of a certain property, and by putting in three young lives, secured in his own hands a valuable property for what was equivalent to a term of 60 years, and afterwards obtained an Act of Parliament by which that property was transferred to his own family, thus depriving the Church of what belonged to it. Did the hon. and learned gentleman desire that state of things to be restored ? The hon. and learned gentleman said he did .not. (Hear.) But the hon. and learned gentleman proposed that instead of the right being in the lessee it should be transferred to the lessee, and instead of the lessee being at the mercy of the bishops and of the dean and chapter he should have an absolute right which should be as good as freehold pro perty. Now that was what he should call confiscation, for it was taking away the right from that body in which it existed, and transferring it to another who had only a limited right which a.l; a certain period must expire. The hon and learned gentleman's plan, therefore, was to confis cate the property of the church for the benefit of the lessee. But what had been done in the case of the landed property of the crown ? It was said, in the same way as the hon. and learned gentleman said with regard to the interest which the church had in the property leased under the or dinary tenure, that very little was paid to the crown on ac • count of its property leased in the same way. What was the course taken by Mr. Pitt as to that properly ? Did he give the whole to the lessees, or transfer the whole right over them ? No, on the contrary, ho took the whole bene fit for the lessor. He gave to the lessee no more than was his right, and gave to the crown, by what he—(Lord J Russell)—thought was a beneficial act, the whole income arising from the rack rents of those lands. With regard to the church not being as powerful as the crown and having no such patron as Mr. Pitt, ho held that the arrange ments made on behalf of the church were in the same way as beneficial to the lessor, and were generally in the spirit of the petition which had been read. The effect of that ar rangement was, that the lessor said to the lessee, "You take your choice of one of two courses, either sell to the church all your remaining interest in the lease, or else buy the property and pay to the church that which is the value of the lease to us when it expires, viz., the reversion." He thought the proposal made in the House of Lords was the fair one—he need not enter into the precise terms, for they had nothing to do with the present bill—but he re garded it as a fair proposal on the whole, under which much of this class of property would be re leased from its present disadvantage—that disadvantage being, that those who held it could not build or plant, or dispose of it as they wished, as they could do if the property were their own, or held under a more certain tenure. A great extent of this kind of pro perty had in this way become freehold, and was held by farmers, yeomen, and other proprietors, who had improved it in a manner they could not otherwise have been justified in doing. Generally then this was the purport and object of the bill. He believed it was in principle perfectly fair, and with regard to its provisions, he thought that they were such as ought to receive the sanction of the house. With regard to the particular clause alluded to by the hon. and learned gentleman, that was not the time for discussing his objec tions, but when the bill was in committee the hon. and learned gentleman's suggestions would receive every atten • tion. For his own part, he thought it was in every way de sirable that bishops and chapters should hold landed pro perty. If they were to dispose of their property and invest the proceeds in the funds, the bishops and chapters would perhaps have a more certain income for a time, but they would not have suoh a dependence on the landed interest of the country as he thought they ought to have, and there fore he should be sorry to see any change in that direction; and with regard to the ecclesiastical commissioners, it was no doubt possible that a body managing landed property to the extent of £200,000 a year might commit mistakes occa sionally by not being able to visit the whole of thatproperty and superintend it personally in every part, but that was an inconvenience inseparable from any great scheme of management, or from the management of any great pro perty. The hon. and learned gentleman had himself referred to the case of a landed proprietor who had not seen some portions of his property for 25 years, but he would hardly on that ground say he ought not to be allowed to hold the property at all. Mr. MALINS—I said it was an inconvenience to be re gretted. Lord J. RUSSELL—The same might be said in the pre sent case, that it was in some respects an inconvenience to be regretted that the ecclesiastical commissioners could not personally visit the whole of this church property, but they must bear with that inconvenience in any large scheme of this kind involving property so widely spread and so exten sive. Mr. S. ESTCOURT thought the noble lord had placed the bill in as fair a light as it was capable of bearing. , At the same time he was sorry that a measure of so much im portance should have been accidentally, and in consequence of an unexpected alteration in the proceedings of the house for the evening, brought forward while many hon. members who were interested in the question were absent. The ills portance of the bill was great, whether the amount of pro perty involved in it or the mode in which it was proposed to deal with that property were considered. They were not dealing with the whole amount of the property which had at any time belonged to the Church, but the only point raised by the bill was whether they should deal with the estates held by the different capitular bodies in the same manner as they had already dealt with those held by the bishops. For thefirat tine they were about to deal with the estates of gentlemen who had not been consulted upon the matter ; and one of his objections to the measure—if it could be called an objection —was that these persons had no op portunity afforded them of making out their case. An other objection was that the bill proposed to make use of the machinery of the ecclesiastical commission not merely for, the sale but for the future management and possession of these estates. He could not but acknow ledge the force of the noble lord's remarks with regard to landed property. There was no doubt a greater stability in the possession of land than in the possession of funded property, ebut he complained that not only was the land taken, but tho manner in which it was proposed to take it was objectionable. How, for instance, were they to dis tinguish between a lessee who held property under a capi tular body, and a lessee who held under any college at Oxford ? (Hear, hear.) He preferred the old mode under which ecclesiastical property had been held, and viewed in a less favourable light the holding of land in mortmain by a capitular body than the holding of land in mortmain by the bishops. He considered it objectionable that any body con stituted as the ecclesiastical commission was should have the management and control of the large estate which would fall into their hands if this bill passed. No doubt the ques tion of the bishops had been already dealt with, but the result of legislative interference in their case gave him no confidence in the future. Individually he had the highest respect for the ecclesiastical commission, but if Parliament granted to them not only the prolongation of their powers, but the extension of those powers, he thought it was not too much to ask for some explanation of the exact terms and conditions upon . which the concession was made. He hoped that that which had been shadowed forth by the noble lord in reference to the mode in which the Govern ment intended to deal with the details of the measure would be carried out ; and under these circumstances perhaps it would not be desirable to press the amendment to a division. Mr. SELWYN said the house had been taken by sur prise in the bill being proceeded with that evening, and he felt that under the circumstances it would be useless to press the amendment. He would therefore withdraw it. The amendment was accordingly withdrawn, and the bill was read a second time. MINES REGULATION AND INSPECTION BILL. The house went into committee on this bill. Mr. RIDLEY said several hon. members who were inter ested in the bill were absent, not having had the most remote idea that it would 'erne on. Under those circumstances he appealed to the Home Secretary whether it was fair to go on with the committee that evening. Sir G. C. LEWIS said he should be ready to postpone the bill if the house were unprepared to proceed with it, but he did not believe any inconvenience would result from taking the discussion upon the clauses now. Mr. RICARDO expressed a hope that the right hon. gentleman would consent to report progress. Lord PALMERSXON remarked that he had been asked at an early period of the evening by an hon. member oppo • site what the course of business during the evening would be, and he had then stated distinctly that the orders of the day would be gone through, and hon. members who were interested in any of the bills which stood upon the orders ought therefore not to have left the house. Sir J. PAKINGTON thought it would be unfair to the Government to require them to postpone the committee. If such a course were taken upon all occasions the Government would, never be able to get through the public business. After some conversation, the committee proceeded with the discussion of the bill, and clauses 4 to 6 inclusive were agreed to without amendment. On clause 7, Mr. H. A. BRUCE moved an amendment to the effect to.. limit the inspection to mines connected with coal. There had been no necessity shown for extending inspection to iron mines. In a mine with which he was connected there had been only one death to 498,000 tons of ore raised, and the deaths that did occur in iron mines were not caused by want of ventilation, but by the accidents inseparable from such work. It might be taken generally that the removal of one ton of ironstone necessitated the removal of five tons of rubbish, and looking at it in that way there was not more, than one death caused by the removal of 235,000 tons of ironstone separated from the rubbish. He thought there fore there was no Case for the inspection of iron mines. Mr. CLIVE said the hon. gentleman seemed to think that inspection was good for everybody's case but his own, The unanimous opinion of the inspectors was that inspection should be applied to iron mines. He could assure the com mittee that the inspectors of coal mines were unanimously of opinion that inspection should also be extended to iron mines, at d the great majority of coal-owners were of the same opinion. Mr. CAYLEY thought the clause was exactly framed to meet the case suggested by the hon. member (Mr. Taylor). After a few remarks in explanation from Mr. TAYLOR, The amendment was negatived without a division. Mr. AYRTON suggested that power should be also taken for the appointment of sub-inspectors, Sir G. C. LEWIS observed that he did not object to the su ggestion, but could not agree to the appointment of sub inspectors unless in cases where it was s h own to be *bee lutely necessary. INWIAM urged that without sub - inspectors it wc 'uld be impossible to carry out the provision sof the act. Sit • G. LEWIS said the difficulty he felt wa, s how to de fine the difference between the i ns p ec t evg an d the sub inspectors:• Perhaps the best course would het to postpone the question : till the next stage of the bill. Thi s was agreed to, and the clause passed. On clause 10, Mr. AYRI `ON moved to add after the word places, "and all other accessible places." The object of this amendment was to compel the owner either to ventilate or shut off dise used workings. Mr. CLIVT. ,said this was one of the most disputed por tions of the bill. He was bound to say that the commis sioners had reco •err mended the amendment, but he was told that there would be a difficulty in applying it in all in stances. He had therefore thought it best to make the clause run as it dirt Mr, AYRTON st tggested that it must surely be possible to stop off those plac es which were difficult to ventilate, and which if left open might admit gas in quantities large enough to endanger the miners. Mr. CAYLL' Y cu, e•gested that the words " where pos sible" epted thi s p•O posa l . m A i y gh ß t T g o TA N , i a, d ,stx . of the diffi cu lty. Mr. BRUCE said th ere were circumstances in which an attempt to ventilat e m i b. lit be dan gerous , b ecause . t h e gas was only explosive when; 'nixed with more than three times and less than 14 times its own bulk. After some furtherconve, - cation, the committee divided— For the amendment , ...... Against it Majority Mr. AYRTON said that accidents were frequently 7 caused through the tramways in mines being too narrow. He proposed as an amendment that: places of refuge should be provided at intervals of not less thazt ten yards, or that the tramways should be made so wide as to• allow room for men to pa'Bl3 the trucks, which ran down with great ra pidity. Mr. VIVIA N thought it undesirable to take the respon sibility of avoidill Skeidents off the own ers or wor k ers o f g mines. Serious ac •eidents had to be reported t o th e S e ore tary of State, and tilla t, of itself was a great safeguard. If the drifts were widened there would be great danger of the fall of the roof—a. most fruitful source of accident. He thought it desirable Ih've places of refuge, but not at shorter intervals than 20 roll. A wide drift without re fuges would be highly danger ms. After a conversation the araondment was withdrawn. After some discussion the am endment, fixing " tW 'enty" ins'ead of " thirty" yards as the loize of the place of re, (age, was adopted without a division. Upon page 5, line 2, Mr. AYRTON moved t o leave ota the words "co ve ir overhead," and to insert " covered safety rage." Mr. VIVIAN said he had found from riveted experi-.. ments that " safety cages" were a fertile sauce of danger... Every mechanical contrivance of this sort wag likely togot.; out of order. He believed all cases of this kind to be im practicable, but, even if they were practicable, they would probably lead to a false security, arising from mistaken economy. Less attention would be paid to the due ingpee lion of the state of the ropes. He thought to pass a law in. favour of safety cages would lead to an increased injury, and loss of life. - Mr. CLIVE said that the question of the safety cages had been very carefully considered, aril he hoped the committee would consent to adopt the use of the overhead cover. Mr. RICARDO said it was not advisable to lay down any particular rule about the apparatus to be employed, but the coalowners should be considered responsible for the lives of those whom they employed, and left to adopt. the best means for their safety. He therefore thought. the clause was sufficient as it stood. After a few words more from Mr. KINNAIRD, Mr. BR :emu, and other hon. members, Mr. CROSSLEY advised his hon. friend who had -n toyed this amendment to give way to the opinion of other • mem bers with greater practical knowledge, and not atten rpt to enforce on all parts of the country a contrivance i v hich might perhaps answer in a certain district, lest the i arsult should be to destroy life instead of saving it. Mr. AYRTON said that he believed safety cages were used in the majority of mines throughout the coo Lritry. (No, no.) - ' The amendment was negatived without a division. Mr. BRUCE moved the addition of certain words tor pro vide that the cage should not beused on all occasions waren men were lowered. The amendment was agreed to. Mr. BRUCE then moved the insertion of the wi ords "except upon occasions when repairs were being effecfe d." After some discussion, The committee divided : For the amendment 47 Against it Majority .. . .. Mr. AYRTON moved an amendment to clause 10, to the effect that a proper weighing machine should be promided for each pit, for weighing c)al and ironstone. Mr. H. BRUCE had no objection to a machine being provided, but he could not see of what use it would be for the purpose of iron mines. Mr. AYRTON explained that his object was to secure to the workmen payment for all the ore or coal that al as brought to the bank. Mr. CAYLEY hoped the claim would not be objected to by the Government. In the two committees which had sat on the subject, no point was more insisted upon than the, necessity of having weighing machines as between the workmen and Vre employers. Mr. CLIVE had no objection to the claim if it wets un derstood that it was to be permissive only, but recom mended that it should be deferred to the report, ire order that the wording might be considered, so as to make the claim practical in its object. After a few words from Mr. NEWDEGA.TE, The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and the comeseittee obtained leave to sit again. UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGE ESTATES B:(LL. The amendments to this bill were brought up and agreed to. The London Corporation Bill was postponed for a mondb The Iceland Bonding Bill was read a third time said passed. The Union of Benefices Bill was read a second time. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND) ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The house then went into committee on this bill. Ou the question that the preamble be postponed, Mr. P. lIENNESSY moved that the chairman report progress. The motion was negatived. On clause 2, Mr. HASSARD moved an amendment to save the rights of the several counties in which the boroughs named were situate (Limerick alone excepted), if they resided in the boroughs, or within eight miles of the same. Colonel DICKSON moved to amend the amendment by leaving out the words relative to the residence of the coroners. Mr. I. BUTT and Mr. CARDWELL supported the clause. Lord NAAS spoke in favour of Mr. Hassard's amend ment. Colonel Dickson's amendment was agreed to. On the question that the clause as amended stand part of the bill, the committee divided on Mr. Hassard's amend ment— Ayes . Noes Majority The bill then passed through committee, and the house resumed. The Admiralty Court Jurisdiction, No. 2, Bill was read a second time. On the motion of Mr. VILLIERS, leave was given to bring in a bill to, continue the Poor Law Board for a limited period. The house adjourned at five minutes past two o'clock. [ADVERTISEMENT.]— Holloway's Pills and Ointment.— Exercise your Judgment.—For purifying both the solids and fluids composing the human body; for regulating the functions natural to each corporeal organ ; for strengthening digestion and invigorating the nervous system, the powers of Holloway's remedies have been acknowledged for the last quaz ter of a century. They are composed of the finest balsams, without admixture with any mineral or poisonous ingredient; consequently, the use of Holloway's p ur if y i ng preparations, while wonderfully efficient in subduing dis ease, can never act wrongly or do mischief to the weakest constitution. No well-conducted household should be with out a supply of these excellent family medicaments at this season of the year, when the blood and b o d y generally more espeeially require cleansing-. BIRTHS. Jackson, R.N., of H.M.S. G eyser, JACKSON.--On the 21st inst., at Jer se y, th e wife of COM mLITTLE.—On the 22 d inst., at Heavitree H ouse, near Exeter, the wife of Colonel Little, C. 13., 9th Lanc ers , of a a nd d e a r nte a son. T A rr.—On the 23d inst., at Fulh am P alace, the wife of the daughter Lord Bishop of London, of a daughter. TAYLOUR.—On the 21st inst., at Headfort House, Lady John Tay lour, of a son. MARRIAO`E'S. CULTERWELL—SILTIERRAD.—On the 21st inst. at S. Matthew's, Brixton, Dr. Charles Culverwed, only son of Dr. Culvcr wc ll , of Great Marlborough-street, to Emma, second daughter of R. Silberrad, Esq., of Willow Cottage, Brixton. PERR Y — WHICHER.—On the 23d inst., at Peters&ld, H Perry, Esq., Paymaster R.N., to Sophia, third daughter of James Whicher, Esq., of Petersfield, Hants. DEATHS. CAPPUR.—On the 22d ink., at Lower Brook-street, Gros venor-square, Ralph Thomas Cappur, Esq., aged 45. CHANCELLOR.—On the 22d inst., at Guildford, John H. Chancellor, Elq., of Barnes, Surrey, aged 62. DYNELEY.—On the 21st inst., at 78, Upper Berkeley-street, Lieut.-Gen. Dyneley, C. 8., ILA., aged 79. DA.WSON.—On the 22d inst., at Woodleigh Rectory, Devon, the residence of his son, Robert Dawson, Esq., aged 89. HARRISON.—On the 22d inst., at his residence, The Cedars, Sunderland, Robert Ovington Harrison, Esq., solicitor, aged 38. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Bun Office, No. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county (1 Middlee ', Tuesdtky, Juno 26, 1660. I I