The Sun. — London, England, 1860-06-29 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS--(YESTERDAY.) The LDRJ Ca....NcELLon took his seat on the wocilsack at five o'clock. PRIVATE IsUSINEES, The Farringi.on RailTuy and Hay Railway Bills were read a second time. The following- bills were read a third time and passed : Hs.miltsu and Stratharen, and Hereford, Hay, and Brecon Railways. POPISH KIDNAPPING. Viscount DiNGANNON presented a petition from a place in Ireland complaining of the frequent violation of the liberty of the subject by the forcible detention of young chiidien by persons professing the Romish mil: ion. The pstit oners stated that the law ai it at present stood was not sufficient for the protection of the subject or the punish• meat of the offenders. The petitioners prayed that their lordship would immediately take the subject into their considsration, with a view to adopt some remedy for the evil complained of. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that by the law as it at present stood persons committing such offences could be punished. ST. GEORGE'S-IN.TIIE-EAST. Viscount DUNGANNON gave notice that on Friday, the 6th of July, he should c%ll attention to the serious riots and disturbances that continue to take place week after week in this parish. Ile should more particularly allude to the riots of the I;th and 24th of July, and afterwards he would inquire what steps the Government had taken to suppress the disgraceful proceedings. MASTERS AND OPERATIVES BILL. Earl GREYpresenteda petition from Sunderland against this bill. The noble lord said he . ap,Teed in general with the petitioners, and he hoped their lordships would pay parti cular attention to the bill when it came under their consi deration. Lord BROUGII:VS1 agreed with the noble earl, and said men might legally combine fur certain purposes, but it was illegal for them to combine to compel others to adopt views in consonance with those they entertained on any particu lar subject. Lord NV Mali said within the last few hours a deputation had waited upon him, who pointed out several inconsistencies in the measure. VALE OF CLWYD EXTENSION BILL. The standing orders Were considered and suspended, in order that this bill might be proceeded with. ADULTERATION OF FOOD BILL. This bill. on motion of Lord REDESDALE, was read a eaaa time and passed. SHELTER FOR SHIPPING. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE called attention to the unprotected state of the coast with respect to any shelter for shipping during storms. Ho should like to know how far it was practicable to afford better shelter for those ships upon our coasts than was at present afforded by the adoption of some plan for the construction of break waters and harbours less costly and Letter adapted for certain localities than the system of solid masonry hitherto in use, and ho wished to know whether auy such plan appeared likely to be also service able for the improvement of our national defences. The lose of life and property en our coasts during the last few years was very great, and it was much to be regretted that it was on the increase. The mercantile marine he looked upon as the nursery of the navy, and such being the case it was the duty of Parliament to do everything that was calculated to be of service or protection to them. Year after year large sacrifices of human life occurred, and many hundreds of poor fellows left England who never returned ; and the misery and destitution that was occasioned by such a calamity was enormous. The noble lord then alluded to the report of the commission which had sat upon the subject, and quoted some remarks of Sir J. Burgoyne, which he said was clearly against the plan proposed in that report, yet Parliament had voted sums of money for the carrying out these recommendations, totally disregarding all other plans but solid masonry. The system of running out solid blocks of masonry was per fectly useless, and experience had proved that to be the case, and he thought it would be a waste of money to con tinue such a system. Where there was silt, this masonry did not prevent the formation of bars, and the stone was found to be far from durable. The harbour at Dover he thought was the greatest failure that had ever occurred, and after the vast sums of money that had been ex pended, the result had been so very far from the object intended. There were several other places beside Dover, where extensive works were going en, but he feared the same useless result would follow. The only ground he could' see why these works were being carried out was because they were very large and expensive, and unfortunately any engineer in this country who was connected with any very extensive work obtained a great reputationfrem that fact. his own opinion was that the persons to be employed in constructing these works should to scientific men, thoroughly acquainted with the natural laws regulating the movement of the waves and their reflux ; that they should be engineers who had been in the habit of constructing such works ; and that, above all, nautical men should be combined with them. At present there was no want of engineers, but it was too much the habit to employ men without having due regard to the nature of the works upon which they were to be engaged. No doubt .ho opinion of nautical men was taken even under the present system; but what he complained of was that the value of that nautical opinion was invariably determined by the engineer. Before proceeding to expend such enor mous sums of money as £300,000, which he believed was proposed to be incurred in one instance, he thought it would be more economical to try an experiment elsewhere, even if it involved the cost of one, two, or five thousand pounds. He thought that a great responsibility at present rested on the Government and both houses of Parliament, if they did not without delay thoroughly inquire into the question ; and in conclusion he begged to move for the appointment of a select committee to investigate the matter. The Duke of SOMERSET was of opinion that no amount of expenditure would be refused by Parliament when the object was to secure protection for the lives and property of our seamen ; but it was not merely by considering the ques tion of harbours of refuge and breakwaters that knowledge could be obtained upon the subject. The question had been considered by many former committees, and especially by the committee on sh;pwrecks, and the result arrived at was that so long as the shipowners could recover from insurance com panies the amount for which their vessels were insured they were careless as to what became of them. As regarded the number of schemes which had been proposed for harbours of refuge, their lordships were aware that they had been most extensive and costly ; and the more the evidence upon the question was examined, the more perplexing the whole subject became. The most distinguished engineers differed very materially from each other in the opinion upon every scheme hitherto pro posed. By the terms of the noble marquis's motion he ap peared to object to every harbour and breakwater construc ted of solid masonry, but he (the Duke of Somerset) was not aware, from any informat on he possessed, that any batter system could be adopted. Floating breakwaters had been proposed by Admiral Taylor and other naval officers, and their proposals were submitted to a select committee in 1843, who came to the conclusion that there was not sufficient evidence to justify the expen "iture of the public money in the experimental construction of a floating breakwater. Floating breakwaters were open to this serious drawback, that in the event of any casualty the consequences must bo most disastrous to any vessels riding in the harbour. There was a breakwater at Dover, but it had failed. There had been another at Brighton, built by Admiral Taylor, but in consequence of a gale of wind it came on shore, expel i 'nen ally exemplifying what the commissioners had said would happen in such a ease. Last February a company hail proposed to erect a floating breakwater at Hastings. After taking legal elvice as to how far the Admiralty would be nispon-ible for the consequences of such a struc ture, he wrote to the company, stating that. the Admi ralty were preAre 1 to give assent to its construction , upon the diet net understanding that they were not to be hold in any degree responsible fur any damage or injuries that might occur to vessels trusting to the protection of the breakwater. How far the company %erre :ail:died with that answer, or prepared to take the whole responsibility upon themselves, he could not say, h iving since that time had nu communication from them ; but he believed their lurdships would be most unwilling to undertake the establishment of a breakwater upon any such terms. Now, all the light vessels along shore were fastened. in what was supposed to be the most secure manner tile' could be devised, but in 1311 the three light vessels in the North Sea parted their anchors and went to sea ; and Wag it n o t p ro b a bl e th at if t h ere h a d b een a fl oat i ng breakwater u, at the time it w ou ld a l so h ave gone ou t t o sea ? was awar e th a t b rea k waters h a d not been successful in many respects, and one reason was that engineers dif fered so much as to plans, and so also did successive Clover un 'ents• Last year he (the noble duke) went to Alderneymirivkil at t the breakwater there, acc om p an i e d b y military and come unler the incers. About 14 diff eren t pl ans h a d considerationbut as of successive G overnmen t s fur that bre a k water, course would b e to abandon far as he could j u d ge th e b es t n.oaey that had b een spera tlie project, even after all the upon it. Then as to the harbour of Holyhead ; it was true it had net been carried out upon such a scale as it should have b one of solid work, proceeding ef(ril• the shore; but then Portland harbour was there was every facility aad material spot for con structing a harbour there. The noble n m the arl4 ll lB i t h w a a d tit s a id t Dover harbour was an unsuceiesfu! one. \Nsa present ; but when the pi er was carried out al l ittle f urt h er c a t h a r. it would be found very usef u l. Th ere were l hours of refuge proposed, but it requ i red the Governme n t gr to pause before it adop ed any one of th em, and h e shouldbe very sorry to pledge himself to any one of th ese harbours without further information. The noble mar qu i s wished f•r comm ittee, but if it was merely a committee to consider' the construction of breakwaters and harbours at a less cost than at present, he could net see the wisdom of entering upon a new inquiry, and he did not think such a com m i ttee would be of any use at the present time. He thought it would be much better that the question Should be left upon the responsibility of the Government to bring forward what they thought would be the best plan fbr the construction of harbours of refuge. (Hear, hear.) The Earl of lIARDIVICKE said, as the noble duke had stated that it was not the intention of the Government to propose any vote of public money for breakwaters without very 'grave considerations as to the manner in which that money was to be expended, he should not enter upon that part of the question. But the proposition of th noble mar quis was totally different. All the noble mar ,: is proposed was to inquire whether floating breakwaters cre not better than those of solid masonry. He himself (the Earl of Hard wicke) was of opinion that a breakwater o bat description should be tried upon a scale which would not require any large outlay, and that when it was secured with proper anchors it would be found to be perfectly safe. He should like to see an experiment tried, say at Hastings, of a float ing breakwater to secure the beaching of fishing boats, which would render most essential service to the persons engaged in that occupation. He thought, if a committee was granted, it would be the means of laying bofore Parlia ment precise information as to what would be the best form and materials for such constructions. The Earl of BANDON wished to take that opportunity of drawing the attention of the Government to the fact that the south-west coast of Ireland was perfectly defenceless. Not a single gun was to be found either at the harbour of Long Island or the magnificent Bay of Bantry. The Duke of SOMERSET was understood to say that in case of any emergency ships of war would be the best de fence of that p ►rt of the coast. The Earl of DERBY said, without wishing to take any part iu the discussion as to the construction of floating breakwaters, he wuld take that opportunity of putting a question with reference to an important subject. The re port of the Commissionon National Defences had been lying on the table of the house fora considerable time and had in volved an enormous expense, and he considered it was very important that the intentions of the Government on the sub ject should bo known. The session was now far advanced, and he hoped the noble earl opposite would be prepared to state the intentions of the Government upon this question. Earl GRANVILLE said whatever measures the Govern ment decide upon would be introduced in the other house of Parliament. llc was not prepared at tha• moment to state what the nature of those measures might be, but he should make inquiries on the subject. Lord BROUGHAM said that all who had witnessed that grand and magnificent spectacle in Hyde-park on Saturday last must have been convinced that our best defences were to be found in our troops. In that term he included volun teers, for he could see no dilkrence between troops and volunteers. He conic vcd that the existence of a large , amy force, and the•facility with which they could be moved from one part of the country to the other, was a most important element in national defence. He would suggest to the Government that some such scene as that of Saturday last should be repeated in other parts of the country, and that reviews of a similar kind should take place in Yorkshire, Lancashire, Devonshire, and the eastern and south-eastern parts of the country, which would pro duce the happiest effect upon the volunteer movement, and the best effect also in other countries. (Hear.) The Earl of CAITHNESS said that engineers, generally speaking, omitted from their calculations one of two ele ments with which they had to deal in the construction of solid harbou s. They took the water only into account, and not the'air also. The harbour of Wick, which had stood the most severe tests to which a harbour could be exposed, had only given way in those parts where Hilton was used. Next month the herring fishing on that coast would com mence, in which there would be 1,00) boats and 5,000 men engaged, and if any storm arose it would be from the north and north-east, and those boats would be left entirely at the mercy of the sea, whereas if such a floating breakwater as had been suggested was constructed the whole of the lives and property embarked in the fishing would be pro tected from such storms. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said he did not envy the noble duke or his colleagues the responsiblity they took upon themselves in ab taining from carrying out what had been proposed by the harbours commission, and in refusing a committee to inquire farther into the subject. Earl GRANVILLE said the noble marquis was mis taken in supposing that his noble friend refused his propo sal ; and if the noble marquis could find that the peers, who we e best qualified to inquire into this subject, were pre pared to investigate it in committee, the Government would not oppose a motion for that pUrpose. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE was understood to withdraw his motion for the purpose of introducing another to-morrow. lIONG KONG. Earl GREY presented a petition from Newcastle, setting forth that certain legal proceedings had taken place in Hong Kong, by which it appeared that a person had been convicted of being engaged in transactions of a piratical character, and apparently with the countenance of an officer of the Colonial Government, and praying for inquiry. He (Earl Grey) expressed his own opinion that the state of things in Hong Kong of the local government required serious attention. The Duke of NEWCASTLE said he had received no ac count of the piratical attack, or of the indictment to which the petition referred, though perhaps the despatches which arrived yesterday, all of which he had not time to peruse, contained some account of the matter. lle could assure the noble earl that there was not that neglect in the Colonial office which, according to the petition, was supposed to exist. It was not to be inferred because the Colonial-office did not pay immediate attention to the questions and in quiries of a body of persons calling themselves the "Com mittee of Foreign Affairs," sitting at Newcastle or Sheffield, for they seemed to be a joint concern, that grievances in the colonies could not be inquired into or redressed. He con fessed he did not feel bound to communicate either the de spatches he received or the instructions he sent out to thes persons. His noble friend was in error in supposing that these things were not inquired into. An enormous blue book had been presented by the Colonial-office this year, which reflected very little credit on many of the parties concerned, and showed that the state of society in Hong Kong was anything but satisfactory. He instructed Sir H. Robinson verbally to inquire into the , charges raised by Mr. C. Anstey with regard to the transactions that occurred in Hong Kong, at the same time telling him to avoid stirring up the filthy mud which surrounded the state of society there. There was no part of her Majesty's dominions where libels seemed to be so rife and flagrant. Every man libelled another in the most reckless manner, so that libelling seemed to be the normal state of society in Hong Kong. Everything that ap peared in the newspapers there must therefore be re ceived with caution. The matters referred to in the petition would be inquired into, and everything possible done to redeem that colony from the bad reputation which it had acquired in consequence of the behaviour of some of those who he was happy were now removed from it. The Earl of HARDWICK E said that the Foreign Affairs Committee deserved to be mistaken if they expected an an swer to all their communications, as it would be altogether impossible to answer correspondence of that kind. He re collected receiving a deputation from them, and they ap peared to him to be artisans who instructed themselves, to the best of their ability, in foreign affairs. But they must not suppose that they were treated with indignity because their communications were not attended to. EVIDENCE IN CHANCERY. The LORD CIIANCELLOR laid on the table the report of the commissioners appointed to inquire into the mode of takkg evid.nce in the Court of Chancery. EXAMINATION OF DEFENDANTS IN CRIMI• NAL CASES. Lord BROUGIIAM introduced a bill for the purpose of enabling defendants to be examined in certain cases in cri minal prosecutions. Last year he introduced a bill on this subject, the obje. t of which was to enable all defendants in criminal cases to enjoy the same privilege as defendants in civil actions, viz., that of being examined. The examina tion was to be voluntary, and not compulsory. He with drew that bill, however, in deference to the objectiocts of bis noble and learned friends, the Lord Chancellor, Lord Chelmsford, and Lord Cranwerth. In doing so he corrassed he yielded to their reluctance rather than to their reasons; and he still retained his own opinion of the value of Cut bill of last year. lie changed it, however, materially, so as to meet the object ions then urged. Ili; proposed by the present bill to confine the right of defendants to be examined as witnesses in their own behalf to cases of misdemeanour only. He did not propose to extend it to cases of felony. lie also restricted it to those cases in which the prosecuting party was himself examined, in which case he proposed that the defendant should be examined. A recent trial (the noble lord referred to the Hatch case) had very much in creased the desire to have some such bill as that which ho proposed last year passing into a law. Verdicts were found for the prosecuting parties in that case, although they had been found guilty as defendants. lie believed that such an examination as he proposed was the best defence of inno cence, and therefore he moved that the bill be road a first time. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the former bill would have completely subverted the ordinary administra tion of justice in cases of high treason, felony, and misde meanour ; and it would have rendered it necessary for every accused person either to submit to be examined or admit his guilt. The modified proposal now made was worthy of consideration, but it would require to be carefully exa mined. Some misdemeanours were as grave as felony, and were punishable with transportation ; but in the lighter cases of mi demeanour, as assaults and libels, the principle might admit of application. Still he had a strong objection to violating the established principle of the law that no man should be' his own accuser, which he might be if he were subject to be examined. Lord BROUGHAM said that the way in which French criminal jurisprudence was conducted was sufficient to rail the strongest objection to the cross-examination of accuse( t parties. That system was more objectionable, from beint. conducted by the judge. Anything more preposterous, cruel, or inhuman, could not be conceived. But it was not surprising that it should prevail in a country whe:e the eon-- nexion of a despot and a mob was considered the perfection of government, and what was more, of free government. It would re ould be i mpossible for such a principle ever to be admitted huunelress this c ountry should come to the conc l us i on t h at theep2o of a single individual ada yob was the most eligible form o f government. n The bill wad then read a first time. NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL. The Duke of NEWCASTLE laid on the table a bill r the better government of New Zealand, and fut- the tua.ftge ment of the crown lands. The bill was teed a first time. REPORT OF THE FORTIFICATIONS COMAIIS- THE SUN, LuADON, PRIDAY EVENING, JUNE ' 29, MO. oretary of State, so that two successive ministers had acted towards the council in a similar manner. (Hear, hear.) It there ire should be known that no formal resoluti n of the Council of India was necessary. Another objection which had been made was against the way in which the bill was brought in. Now, he (Mr. J. G. Baring) was of opinion that it was more respectful to the house to bring in the bill first, and then go into the consideration of the details. Then there was the objection that the plan proposed by the Go vernment would cut off the supply of officers for the mili tary, civil, and other occupations. He was at a loss to un derstand upon what ground that objection was tal;en, as he could state the authority of Sir Patrick Grant and other officers Who had a real knowledge of the qualifications ne cessary for officers serving in India, that there would be no difficulty in getting officers from the line well qualified for the various duties for which they would be required. (Hear, hear.) He thought there could be no career which held out greater inducements to an ambitious young man than the service in question. (Hear, hear) The hon. member then cited the instance of Sir Herbert Edwards, who had himself raised levies and commanded them, and after referring to other instances, he asked whether young men would not be glad to have opportunities of distinguishing themselves as Edwards had done. (Hear.) There were about 2,500 offi cers in the local army of Bengal, and of these about 1,000 held civil and other appointments, while only about 150 offi cers of the line held such appointments, but not one of them was a civil appointment of .any importance. Ile thought that the officers of the local Bengal army had a right to those appointments ; but what he wished to sa7 was that at present these inducements did not exist for the line. As to the training of officers he had the ant hority of Sir Thomas Munro and Sir C. Napier, and other officers, for saying that the essential thing was that an officer for India should have his training in an European regiment in India. Now when officers had received that training they would then have to study the native language of India. There was scarcely an officer there who did not study the native language, and none would bo put upon staff appointments till they had passed an examination in the native language. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Taunton (Mr. Mills) asked why they shoUld change the system, which ha I not failed ; but gen lemen who made such statements could not have read the evidence which was taken before the com mission in which the present mode of appointing staff officers was condemned. (Hear.) The officers to he con nected with the future Indian army would be selected for their talents, and its °to-anis:Men the same in every respect as that adopted at home. It was urged against the bill that it would diminish the power of the Governor-General of India, but that was a mistake. The Governor-General at present had nothing- to do with the appointments in the army. He stood in the same relation to India as the Crown did in this country. He controlled the expenditure, had the power of appointing- commanders in certain. districts, but all that would remain the same as it did at the present moment. The staff appointments would be made in India. The Commander in-Chief in this country will have no power to appoint generals of brigade, and only ten divi • sional generals would be placed at his disposal. At pre sent a double staff had to be kept up in that country, but when the new regulations proposed by the bill Caine into force, the adjutant-general would be appointed in this country, and the quartermaster found in India. The Horse Guards would not, as it was said, have an unlimited patronage placed at its disposal, because, as he already said, the Government of India would alone decide upon these questions. The authority of Lord Corn wallis was quoted against the proposed amalgamation of the India with the Queen's army, but the opinion so given was promulgated after the short experience of a few months, for that nobleman arrived in India in the autumn of 1786, and the minute quoted was dated in the early part of 1787. But in 1796, when he acquired a great deal of Indian o po rience, he proposed the plan now proposed, and would have gone out to carry it into effect as Governor-General of India had not the then. Court of Directors interfered and prevented his appointment. Sir John Shame, afterwards Lord Tyne mouth, another eminent Indian authority, was of the same opinion, that European troops serving in India should be relieved after a very fow years. The principle of the bill was that European troops should be managed on European principles, and Indian troops according to the custom of In dia. The additional expense would only he about £114,000, from which they must deduct the expense now incurred of a double staff arnountieg to £20,000 a-year, and he need. hardly say that if they could secure an efficient force in a country like India, with a revenue of £38,000,000, a few thousand pounds additional ought not to make any differ ence. Mr. 11. BAILLIE reminded the house that the Govern ment took 12 months to consider the present measure, and afterwards produced a very imperfect plan, and had not as yet decided on the details. The measure proposed was one fraught with the most galling injustice to the officers of the Indian army. He (Mr. Baillie) believed his right hon. friend the Secretary of State for India would not willingly be a party to it, but they would rather see the question settled by that house than leave it in the hands of any Government. The expense of conveying troops to India was enormous, and while there they cost double that of a native force. Colonel Tulloh, an officer of ex perience, in his evidence before the commission for the erganisatien of thasserny, was of opinion that 80,000 Euro pean troops sent oat to India would cost £150,000, exclu sive of the officers, whose expenses were enormous. The system was a most defective ono in relation to the number of men in the service; and if the Indian Council were to re monstrate-against it, the right hon. gentleman the Secretary of State for -India would say—" Mind your own business, and do not interfere in matters which do not concern you." The country was fixed with a sum of fifteen millions a-year for the maintenance of the army, yet there was no depart ment worse managed than the War Department. But if the matter rested there it would not bo so serious ; it was now proposed to unite the Ordnance with the War Depart ment. Could anything be more injudicious ? Let the house reflect upon what it was proposed to do by the proposed scheme. It was proposed to add 80,000 men to the army, which,with the men stationed in the colonies, would amount to about 115,000 men; and to keep up a standing army of that kind they should keep up at least 35,000 men a-year in this country. The result of the proposed change would in time, he believed, be that regiments should in future, as formerly, remain twenty-five years in India, to which even a system of negro slavery would be preferable. Ile asked the house to reject this bill, as a Measure by no means suited as a remedy for the requirements of the -case. And the house should bear in mind that the most distin guished Indian officers, and Queen's officers, and states men, and well-informed men at home, were in favour of the marntenance in India of a local European army. Then, looking to the general officers who commanded the Indian army. no would take Sir William Gomm for instance. Sir William Gomm was . Com ander in-Chief of the array in Bengal, and when he was retiring from his command he issued an address paying the highest tribute to the army 'which he had commanded. Tie would take another withal ity—a distinguished Indian officer—Sir John Lawrence. That gallant officer passed the highest eulogiutn on the Indian army, and recommended that it should be maintainvi as a'local force. 110 inightalso refer to the authority of Sir James Outrarn on the question; and it was well known that the Dnke of Wellington entertained the highest opinion of the local army in India. The hon. gentleman here read an extract from the svritten opinion of the Duke of Wellington of the Indian army, in which he stated that the men were brave, and that there was no in stance wherein any one of them had disgraced himself in the field. It was (')early the opinion of the Duke of Wel lington-therefore th et frequent changes of the-troops were not desirable. The house would no doubt be disposed to attach a high value to the Opinion of Lord Clyde, but he much feared that that great and gallant officer had allowed himself to Le prejndiced by those around him. If Lord Clyde had written promo that he would not entrust a divi sion to an InJian °Weer, he must have done so in ignorance of what Indian °Met xs had dune. But he could not have forgotten the names of Sir James Outram and Sir Archdale Wilson, who had aci omplisbed the most. agt entitling results, nor could he have forgotten those either of Nicholson or of Hobson. (near.) The question was one, however, to be solved with cahone!_ , :j and deliberation and a due regard to the mutual interests of England and of India, with a view to the permanent wt Ultra of our Indian empire, and iu that spirit he trusted it v onld be approached. Sir 11. VERNE/ said that having come to a conclusion directly contrary to that of the right hon. gentleman the Secretary of State for India, he desired to state the grounds upon which his opinions were foundtd. Ho would ask the house, in the first place, whether this question was to be looked at as a question of patronage simply, without rofe rence to the great interests of the Indian army. One of the principal questions involved in the subject before them was that connected with English officers who had taken service with the Indian Government. Mr. Wilson expressed his entire concurrence in the opinion of the President of the Council in reference to English officers; yet he was by no means disposed to disparage the native army ; and ho forci bly pointed out the contrast between the manner of treatment of officers of the Queen's army and the Company's officers. The selection of proper officers for service in India was amost important consideration, for the treatment of the natives by the officers was a fertile source of discontent among them. 'When Sir W. Peel was asked his opinion concern ing the cause of the mutiny, he replied that he saw enough to cause a mutiny every day in the want of consideration with which the young officers generally treated the natives. (Hear.) As regarded the- term of service, and the cost of sending men home, the house should remember that it would net be a question of sending home a whole regiment, but of sending home every man as soon as his time of service was over. Entertaining those opinions, he felt it his duty to give to the bill all the opposition in his power. Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said in India, the local army was the link of connexion between the line and the native army, and as we could not do away entirely with the latter we should preserve that necessary link of connexion. Would you depend upon mercenary troops to supply any deficiency in this country's resources? Ile thought that would be an unsafe force to place reliance upon. For these reasons ho would cordially support. the amendment. Mr. VANSITTART said the present time was the most favourable opportunity for amalgamating the two forces into one: Many eminent men were of that opinion, and advocated the fusion of the two armies. Being convinced that legislation was necessary, he should, in accordance with the recommendation of the right hon. and gallant LUCW- Sir WM. RUSSELL was of opinion that the bill was a good one, because it would haVe the effect of acclimatising their troops, and : making them acquainted with the habits of the people of India. As to the expense, it had • very little weight with him, because he believed the ad vantages to be derived would far outweigh any such con sideration. In his opinion, 50,000 European soldiers and 50,000 natives would hold that country against the world. As to the officers of the Indian army, they were, to his own knowledge, a highly educated and distinguished body, with whom those of the Royal army would be glad to associate. Sir M. FARQUHAR thought that the Council for In dia ought to have been consulted with respect to the plan now proposed, because they were not only men of great ex perience of India, but of European renown. He could not understand why it was the right hon. gentleman brought it forward ; because, so late as the autumn of last year he was entirely opposed to it. He did not mean to institute a comparison between the local army and the regiments of the line; but he asked, was it desirable to do away with the local army, and amalgamate them with the regiments of the line ?_ In his oeinien it was by no means desirable to effect such an amalgamation. Colonel PERCY lIE RBERT said the bill was ono which would tend to consolidate more firmly our empire in India, by preventing combinations among the governed, or at least dealing with them more easily if they should occur, and for these reasons he should vote against the amend ment. Mr. C. BUXTON said if they passed this measure at all they should have an assurance from the Government that the ap e ointenent of officers should not be left in the power of an iudividual, thousands of miles distant, but in the hands of the Governor-General, who Was responsible for the government and the Welfare of India. (Hear, hear.) Mr. HORSMAN said the house had a right to complain of the course adopted by the promoters of this bill, in not laying before them all the papers and information upon the subject , and they had a still stronger right to complain that the Government should attempt to make so great, impor tant, and vital a change by a vague abstract resolution Ile did not believe that in the whole history of Parliament there was any other instance of Ministers of tho Crown making such a prop sal. Because the question was ono of great difficulty—because it was one with which the Secretary for India_had_._ been unable to grapple because it wee one on which he was entirely beaten—because he knew ho could not devise es immure for carrying out the change, the right hon. gentle man therefore said, " I will shirk the House of Commons, I will dodge the House of Commons, I will degrade the House of Commons into abandoning its functions, and I will get it to pass an abstract resolution." By that means all the difficult and delicate complications on which depend the peace and the safety of the Indian Empire were to be entrusted to the legislation and the discretion of tho Horse Guards—(hear)—which of all the departments of the State was the most incompetent to deal with a question of mixed militaty and political institutions, because it had a direct interest in every change which the bill proposed to make. (Hear.) Two years ago Parliament had passed an act transferring the Government of India from the Company to the Crown. It was a hasty, ill matured, and incomplete measure. (Hear, hear.) At that time Government found it impossible to give them any information upon this point of the organisation of the army, upon which the whole transfer of power depended. (Rear, hear.) The Secretary of State for India in introducing the measure had told them that it was all contained in one resolution, but that in the execution a great many details would have to be con sidered, and that if 'hon. members would look into the papers on the table, they would find a letter addressed to himself by au eminent Indian officer, in which lee recom mended that those details should be referred to a military commission. The right hon. gentleman did not even tell them whether it was his intention to adopt that recom mendation. Ile told them nothing, but they were to pass a vague general resolution. But let them suppose that this novel method of dealing with difficult, intricate, and important subjects had been . adopted earlier in the ses sion, how much time would have been saved—whether beneficially or not was another question. Suppose the noble lord the Foreign Secretary had framed his Reform Bill on the same model, and simply said in his bill, " Whereas it is expedient the Parliament of Great Britain should be reformed, be it enacted therefore that it shall be reformed." (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He supposed in that case the details as to the removal of the franchise and the redistribution of seats, all the real and practical ques tions, would have been referred to a commission of old Whig gentlenien who would have settled them to their own satis faction, if not to that of the country. In this case, the Sec retary for India having shown the helpless and almost culous ignorance in which he was with regard to what would follow, was content to throw everything over to a commis sion, that commission having the power to revolutionise the whole Government of India. What ground had been assigned for this great change ? The Governor-General was against it. Lord Clyde and Sir W. Mansfield would be found, in their earlier letters on the subject, to be most decidedly against it. The late Secretary for India was op posed to the measure, and the Council of India was also against the change.. Upon what new and strong ground, then, did the right hon. gentleman base a measure to which he himself was opposed last year, when he brought forward and ea recd the act he now proposed to repeal ? He (Mr. Herman) put it to the house, if the right hon. gentleman had not made the mutiny of the local European army as the sole cause for this change of opinion, and the sole justifica tion for introducing this bill, which would establish in India ' not only a divided authorite, but a double Government of the worst character. One of the greatest and wisest men connected with Indian affairs, *Lord Metcalfe, gave this warning :—" Our hold of India is so precarious that a little mismanagement may endanger it, and our downfall may be short work. When that commences it will be rapid, and the world will wonder more at our loss than of our con quest of the country." (Hear, hear.) If to-night the house adopted the exceptional proceeding 'proposed by the right hon. gentleman it would be the first fatal step to wards the accomplishment of that wise prediction. (Cheers.) Mr. S. HERBERT said his right hon. friend who had just sat down was not prepared to offer any opinion as to the policy or impolicy of amalgamating the local with the Imperial army of India, and yet he complained of the Go vernment for introducing a measure in which a decided opinion was expressed. He said the Government had cot given sufficient information ; he went further, he said the Government had suppressed information. (Hear.) The Government had nut on the tables of the house the papers moved for in February this year. They were presented on March the 22d, and printed on the 23d. That did not show any desire on the part of the 'Government to withhold in formation. An Hon. MEM BER—Where are the papers ? Mr. S. HE RBER.T—Ask the officers of the house. The Government have laid them on the table and ordered them to be printed, and if hon. members have not received them the Government are not responsible for that. (Oh.) Last year a pledge was given that this subject should be brought under the consideration of the House of Commons. There-- fore, there was time enough for consideration, and the Government could not be fairly accused of taking the house by surprise or passing the bill by a smuggling process. Why, if the Government had any such in tention, they eould have effected their object without coming to the House of Commons at all. But the Go vernment thought it would not be proper to make the alterations proposed by this bill without taking the opinion of the House of Commons . . (Hear, hear.) The right honourable gentleman said that they were going to incur heavy expenditure for India, although it was a fact that that expenditure must be paid, not out of the taxes of this country, but India. Now, he could not see how that was to be done, for in India they could refuse to pay, and they could refuse to accept any officer they might not approve of. The whole thing and power were in their hands ; and the Horse Guards had no power whatever over the outlay, not even to the amount of a single sikpence. The right hon. gentleman said that they were in this country going to vote halla million of money for barracks in India; but that was not the fact, and lie could not con ceive how any man could have laid hold of any such absurd idea as that. (hear, and laughter.) What additional power had the Governor-General got in this matter? Not one jot. If the right hen. gentleman were to write to the Secre tary of State for India, or to the Horse Guards, on such a subject, ho would probably get a reprimand. The Governor- General was a despot in India; and ho must continue to be so if.he intended to preserve India and to maintaintheir power. He confessed, that of all the subjects which had ever come under his consideration, he had never found one which was so beset with diffi silty and in which he had so much trouble and anxiety in coining to a conclusion. He said, frankly and solemnly, that his bias in the first instance WM in favour of a local army—(hear)—which he believed would supply the public service, civil and military, with better and more qualified men than the Queen's army. Ho believed that it was important that for the preservation of the Indian Government we should have men of that class. I shad tried to look in an independent and impartial manner at this subject, and had consulted authorities which were not likely to ba biassed in their feelings upon it. Ills right hon. friend opposite read a letter the other night from Lard Mel ville, in which he stated that. the opinion of thatdietinguished man was in fe your of a local at•nty. Now, he (Mr. S. Her bert) weuld also reed opinions expresso•l by the DuCeof Wol lington of a contrary tendency. Ho found that in 1828 he expressed opinions about the local army which were not so favourable as hon. gentlemen supposed. The right hon. gen tleman hero quoted front the evidence given by the Duke of Wellington before a Parlimnentary committee, wherein his grace said that it would never answer to make the Queen's officers a colonial corps, and that there was a great difference between them and the officers of the local army. He en treated the committee to lay aside gm plan which they pro posed altogether.- And with regard to the local army, he said that whatever the desci iption of troops, their efficiency depended much upon the character and bearing of their offi cers. His right hon. friend also quoted Lord Clyde as in favour of a local army. Now, that was not so. For whatever Lord Clyde's opinion might formerly hare been, he certainly had changed his mind. A great many hon. gentlemen had spoken with greaLlightness of the mutiny; but those who originated the mutiny had not themselves taken any active part in carrying it out. And one noble lord who took part 'xi the debate said the mutiny was exceptional. But how could it be exceptional? It was not prudent to speak lightly of mutinies by armed men. He was not ping now to enter into coneideratione of the jealousies which existed between the local army and the Queen's army. The question had been fully discussed. He had heard that night masers against the amalgamation of the local army with the Queen's army, and of the jealousies that existed between them. No doubt if they looked calmly into both, they would find that neither was free from faults. The question of discipline lud been referred to, and upon that part of the subject he would read a statement to the house from experienced authority. The right hon. gentleman here read an extract to the effect that the Indian officer had to deal with a class of men who were apparently the most docile soldiers they could have ; but that was not the school in which an oflZeer of the Queen's troops - could be trained. They had to deal with a race of Anglo-Saxons, who were altogether different in their feelings and habits. The good feeling that subsisted between the officers and non-counnissioned officers of the British army was remarkable. True, the officers did not trust everything to them, but they reposed the greatest confidence in them, and the interests and comfort of the noncommissioned offi cers were well looked after by their officers. The most per ! 'bet friendship was kept up between them, and if the non commissioned officer became ill, his officer looked after his comfort, tried to alleviate his condition, and even his offi cer's wife did not fail to feel an interest in him, and to have him paid proper attention to. (Hear.) But, if English officers were not able, as was alleged, to discipline the na tives, that was the natural result of the system. There were various causes in operation in the Indian army which tend to relax discipline. Sir Hugh Rose, for example, in a letter written by him to the Adjutant-General, said, that 06 officers were then Bei ving away from the staff of their regiments. Now, how was it possible that discipline could be maintained in auythiug like an efficient state under such a system ? Me says, that those officers are drafted away to fill civil employments, and that the Postmaster-General is a medical officer, and the best men were those generally taken away from their regiments. It had been said that the Queen's officers woeld never consent to take the places of the officers of the local army ; but, with the inducements of the service they would, without doubt, not hesitate to seek service in India. The right hon. gentleman here referred to a letter written by Lori Canning, in relation to the local army, and said that great stress had been laid upon that letter by hon. gentlemen in the course of the debate, as indicating that Lord Canning was not in favour of the abolition of the local army. Now, as he (Mr. Sidney Herbert) read that d , current, he found many passages in it of a qualified tendency. The right hon. gentleman here quoted several passages from the letter of Lord Canning, and argued that they showed he was not disposed to view unfavourably an amalgamation of the local army with the Queen's regiments of the line. He then adverted to a letter which lie had seen in that day's Times, from General Hancock ; propesing a. scheme for the disbandment of the local army, and'a mode of amalgamating them with the Queen's forces ; lut he must say that he could not approve of the plan proposed by the gallant general, and viewed it as one that would be at. t ended with much expense, and that would fail to give satis faction. Sir Charles Trevelyan had expressed an opinion favourable to the impression that the officers of the Queen's forces of the lino would speedily apply themselves to the study of the native languages, and fit themselves for native command. Others however said the Queen's officers would never apply themselves to the study of the native lan guages. Now, what had been the system which had been carried on ? Ho asked a gentleman who had recently come from India, if he had formed an opinion on the subject of a local army, and he said " The opinion I have formed is this. So long as you have a local army having a monopoly of all /laces that were high and valuable, so long will that army be held in high estimation ; but if the officers of the Queen's army only once found those lucrative employments open to them, they will speedily evince a desire for service in India. The right hon. gentleman here quoted from a letter written by Colonel ()urea in 185). The hon. baronet behind him had spoken of the advantages of a local army, as it was not subjected to the drawback of not being acclima tised, but the authorities were against the conclusion of the hon. baronet. He then quoted frem statistics to support the view in opposition to the hon. baronet's opinion. The posi tion of the troops in India was frequently so different that it was very difficult to institute a satisfactory comparison. He admitted, however, that upon the whole the health of the local troops was.superior to that of the European. Then it had been argued that England might be so denuded of troops as to be unable to furnish the necessary force to India :—but it should bo remembered that during the mutiny the great and successful exertions which were made to send the reinforcements to India, furnished the best answer to that objection. He now came to a question which was raised by the lion. member forStroud, as to the patron age to be given to the Horse Guards, but he was entirely mistaken in forming that opinion. The rights of Indian officers were guaranteed by act of Parliament until the present men died out. It was not intended in the case, then, of the Indian officers, to make any change in the present system. It was necessary to retain a certain number of regiments where purchase would not be allowed. The Duke of Cambridge said, and he knew something of the matter, "if there be any increase of patronage, for God's sake do not force it upon me." But he (Mr. S. Herbert) could not for a moment be led to the conclusion that the changes proposed were made with a view to a question of patronage, either by the Secretary of State or by the Indian Council. It was for the Secretary of State and the Council to recommend appointments to the Commander in -Chief, and he hoped that would satisfy his right hon. friend that he was in error in the conclus'ou he bad arrived at as to the increase of patronage to be given to the Horse Guards. An objection had been raised that patronage was placed in the hands of the Council which ought to be long to the Crown, but that objection was disposed of by the provision which was made in the act that the patronage of the Council was to be subject to the approval of the Secre tary of State. The noble lord the member for King's Lynn (Lord Stanley) had stated that it was a matter of policy to endeavour to attract men of high birth to enter the service, but he (Mr. S. Herbert) thought there was no reason why they should endeavour to hold out attractions to that pare titular class to enter the army. It was quite sufficient that they could get good officers. He had shown that members of the Indian Council and the Indian Government were against having a preponderating local army, and he thought it a wise opinion. It was said that the Queen's army would mutiny under circumstances such as occurred to other forces in India. It was no such thing, and he would give them an example. Some time ago a detachment of that army was ordered to China, and by some inexplieelde :::i,take, the officers were paid the usual alloy an es, but the men received nothing. Well, did they rui..iuy ? No such thing. They appealed to their officers, who told them some mistake had been committed, which they would rectify, and havingecon fidence in them, they left the matter to them, and were satisfied. That was the maamer in which the Queen's troops acted, and not like the local force in India, which deserted them in their hour of need. Mr. RICH moved the adjournment of the debate. Lord PALMERSTON hoped the house would decide on the question that evening, and not adjourn it to a future day. Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY thought an adjournment ought to take place, the more especially as he had reason to know that the Indian Council were against the Government on this question. Ho believed the house was bound to see that justice was done to the 6,000 officers and 15,000 Eu ropean troops which had been in the Company's service, and would be seriously injured by this bill. The house then divided, when the numbers were— For the adjournment Against it Majority Mr. SEYMOUR hoped the Government would not press the bill on in the absence of necessary papers, and if they did he should move the adjournment. Lord PALMERSTON hoped the hon. member would not persevere. There were other stages of the bill in which mentbers,would have an opportunity of addressing the house, and he hoped the bill would be allowed to proceed. Mr. HORSMAN said papers had been moved for on tha 17th February, which were not delivered until March, and other documents were wanted. Under these circumstances he hoped an adjournment would take place. Sir J. PAKINGTON was for supporting the Govern ment, but he thought under the - circumstances they ought to consent to an adjournment. Col. SYKES moved for documents on the subject which had not been as yet delivered. Lord PALMERSTON said that the papers which were in the hands of the printer could not be ready by to-morrow, • and he hoped there was no desire to postpone the bill until that period when the House of Lords had determined they would not enter upon the consideration of bills sent up from this house. A division then took place upon the question " that the house do now adjourn"—. For the motion . • Against it Majority .. Mr. lIENNESSY moved that the debate be now ad journed. Lord PALMERSTON said he would consent to the adjournment of the debate to this day. (No, sn'') Gen. PEEL thought there would he no advanta ge in an adjournment of the deb a t e ter a few hours, as t h e pape the would , not then be r e f that ready_ He recommend ed amendment should be withdrawn, on the understanding that before the next stage of the bill was taken all the papers required would be produced. After some conversation, in which Sir C. Wood, Lord Palmerston, Mr. Horsman, and Mr. Mills took part, the house again divided on the question of the adjournment of the debate, when there appeared -44 For the adjournment.. • • ' . Against Majority against Mr. MILLS moved the adjournment cif the house. Lord PALMERSTON said that he was prepared to remain there as lorrg as any other member, but they should recollect that there was to be a morning sitting that day, and they ought to consult the conveniemce of the Speaker. He recommended the house to assent to the adjournment of the debate. The niotipn for the adjournment of a tft house wa a with drawn, and the debate was adjourned to This day. Several hon. members pressed upon fir re Government the imprtance of doing all that lay in their Tower to have the papers placed in the hands of members as soon as, posail9l47. They were most essential to a complete and prJper conside ratioh of the entire question. MAIL PACKET SERVICE. Mr. LAING asked the house to go into committee of supply for the purpose of taking a vote for the mail packet service, exclusive of the Galway rtclret service. Colonel Dunne, Colonel Dickson, Mr. Hennessy, Mr. Roebuck, and Mr. Williams obj,Tted, and the consideration of dm vote in supply was p siponed until this day. LOCAL TAXATION RETURNS BILL. This bill was read a second time. ANNUITY TAX ABOLITION (EDINBURGH) BILL. This bill as amended was recommitted and considered. UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGE ESTATES BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. ISLE OF MAN HARBOUR. BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. - PROFESSIONAL OATHS ABOLITION BILL. The house went into committee 311 this bill, but Lord E. TtIYNNE oLjated to the consideration of the measure at so late an hour—two o'clock. He moved that the chairman report progress. Mr. STEUART supported the motion, which wag agreed to. The house adjourned at ten minutes past two. P ,iRLIAMENT.4R Y DIVISION. lIOUSE OF COMMONS-JUNE 28. EUROPEAN FORCES (INDIA) BILL. Order for second reading read ; motion made, and question proposed, " That the bill be now rind a second time :" Amendment proposed, to leave out the word " now," and at the end of the question to add the words " unon this day three months :"—QueAtion proposed, " That the word new' stand part of the question :"—The house divided; Ayes 83, Noes, 262. SION. The Earl of DEILBY rcpzatcd a question which he had put on a flrrner evening, as to the course which the Go vernment meant to take iu pursuance of the recommenda tions of the co , nurission on fortifications. He hoped that the noble earl (Granville) would be prepared by to-morrow or by Monday at the latest, to inform the house whether it was the intention of the Government to bring forward any measure in connection with that subject during the present session, more especially as regarded the security of our naval dockyards and arsenals; also when the estimate for that purpose would laid before the other house. Earl GRANVILLE said he had stated on the former occasion that he was not aware of the course proposed to be taken by the Government in the other house ; but he would make a point of ascertaining; and he hoped that by the be ginning of next week he should be able to give an answer to the noble earl's question. The house adjourned at ten minutes after 7 o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKEIt took the chair at four o'clock. NEW MEMBER. Mr. GETTY took the oaths and his seat fur Belfast. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Lords amendments to the Leeds Township Bill were considered and agreed to, and the bill was ordered for third reading. The amendments to the following bills were considered and agreed to :—Mid Wales Railway; Newcastle-upon- Tyne and Carlisle Railway, anti Port Carlisle Dock and Railway, and Carlisle and Silloth Bay Railway and Dock Companies; Stockport, Disley, and Whaley Bridge way. The Kilkenny Junction Railway Bill waA read a third time and passed. PETITIONS'. Several petitions were presented against the Sunday Trading Bill, in favour of the Census Bill, against the clause requiring declaration of religious profession in the latter bill, against the Highways Bill, in favour of amend ment of the Poor Laws, &c. VESSELS, TONNAGE, Scc Mr. lIOIISFALL moved for a return showing tho num her of yowls and tonnsge onterod in wards and cleared outwards at each of the twelve principal porisof the United Kingdom ; also, tho official and declared value of imports, for oach of the said ports, during the year 1853 (in con tiruation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 173, of Session 2, - 18.59.)—Ordered. THE PAUPER MARY CARTER, Mr. LANIGAN moved an address for copies of a letter (and its enclosures) addressed by the Under Secretary of State for the Home Department, on the 19th day of June, 1860, to two justices of chi St. Pancras division, respecting the removal of Mary Carter from the parish of St. Pancras to Ireland, and of the reply from the clerks to the said jus tices.—Ordered. ORDERS OF REMOVAL. Mr. WHALLEY moved for a return, mado up to 1,860, showing the number of orders of removal from parishes, signed by Justices, and executed in England and Wales (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 436, of Session 1856). FOREIGN AFFAIRS. Sir It PEEL gave notice that, on the motion for adjourn ment to-morrow, he would draw attention to the proposed annexation of Sicily to Piedmont, and ask whether Govern ment would afford any information as to what might be the demand of Franco in consequence thereof. He would also ask whether any intimation had been convoyed to the Sar dinian Government that the unconstitutional policy pur sued by the King of Sardinia was viewed with disapproba tion by this country. DESPATCH OF M. THOU VENEL. Sir IL PEEL inquired of the noble lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs when the despatch of M. Thouvon2.l would be submitted to the house. Lord J. RUSSELL said that the despatch alluded to would be laid on the table in the course of next week. EUROPEAN FORCES (INDIA) BILL. On the motion for the second reading of this bill, Mr. A. MILLS said it was most desirable that the ques tion raised with respect to this subject should be settled Tho matter at issue between those favourable aad those opposed to this measure was whether Alley should continue an ancient military machinery or not, and one that had rendered essential service in moments of peril, and to which this country was indebted for the dominion of India, without providing any adequate substitute. The abolition of this local military force, as proposed by the bill, would have the effect of burdening the re venue of India with an annual impost of £200,000. It should be recollected also that the mortality amongst natives of this country was much greater during the first five years of their residence in India than during sub sequent years, so that there was the strongest ground for maintaining an acclimatised army. Having cited the authority of several military writers in support of his views, the hon. member proceeded to con tend that, on political grounds, the proposed alteration was most inexpedient. They could not argue from analogy in regard to India, because our relation with that country was altogether different to those with other coun tries. lie admitted that a speedy settlement of this ques tion was of the first importance, and if he thought this bill would have that effect he would abandon his oppo sition, but be denied that it would produce such a result. lie considered this bill 'was a hasty and ill-considered 'at tempt to determine a question that, fora considerable time, had occupied the attention of those best ac quainted with the subject without any satisfactPry solution of the problem involved being obtained. Ile repeated that the bill proposed to abolish ono system with out the slightest substitute, and that jt intended to violate the rights and privileges guaranteed to the officers of the Indian army by the 56th. 57th, and 58th sections of the Indian Bill, passed in 1858. His firm c nviction was that this bill would do far more injury than any good it could possibly effect, and ho denounced it as a dangerous and most unconstitutional measure. lie concluded by moving that the bill be read a second time that day three months. Sir T. COLE BROKE said that if this question was one that merely affected the organisation of troops in India he would not have taken an active part in this debate, not withstanding that he was in favour of the maintenance of a local army in India. He considered, however, that the matter at issue was far more important, and was intimately connected with the financial position of India, as well as with the Indian patronage of this country. It involved further Parliamentary and political interests whose import ance could not be exaggerated. If the question was merely whether they should have a force composed solely of royal troops in India, he admitted that ho would be, in favour of - such a proposition, but the measure did not make any such proposition. He contended that, on the ground of economy, it was most desirable to continue the local force, because it' they adopted a different course they would have to maintain their home garrisons in this country to enable them to afford the necessary military reliefs to India. He strongly objected to the increased patronage which tbe measure would confer on the military adminis tration. The bill in the outset proceeded on the principle that it was necessary to maintain a European force of 80,000 men in India, in order to secure the tran quillity of that country, which was illustrated by the recent mutiny of the native troops. Circumstances, however, had led to that mutiny which were not likely to occur again, as it was not to be supposed that. this country would repeat the folly of confiding foo largely to the local force, awl that there would be an efficient number of garrisons of British troops maintained in India. However, there was a large margin between the force in the garrisons at the time of the mutiny and that increase now proposed... Besides the advance in militoy science, and the extension of railways in India •, • rendered unnecessary the maintenance of so large a force as that proposed. As to the causes of the mutiny Lord Clyde and Sir James Outram respectively stated that the grossest exaggerations of facts hail been made ; under those circumstances lie (Sir T. Colbroolre) thought the house w•Jre entitled to sonic further information before they proceeded further with the bill. Although it was ad mitted that the discipline of I hearoops of the heal force was not, in some respect, equal to that of the troops of the Fne, yet that was - an evil which could be remedied with out applying this extreme masure. The gallant general who was about to succeed Lard Clyde brought large and sweeping charges against the whole army of India, both the local forces and those of the line, and was very SONTIO both on officers and men ; but, admitting the correctness of his allegations, it was not likely that any ef fective remedy could be obtained by the proposed change. Sir 11. Rose made a candid confession, in the beginning el his statement. that there would be a great deal of private i uterest brought to bear with regard to the patronage in• valved. There were four ditterent military systems, and four different commands--the British, Bengal, Madras, and Bombay. The difficulty was to unite all these armies under one head. The events of the last few years showed the im possibility of uniting, under one head, all those forces. But the experience of Sir Hugh Rose slowed what could be done by a local force. He camatanded the Bombay column, and with the assistance of that army he advanced from Boer tty into the territory of Bengal, and powerfully assisted in npprossing the revolt in that part of the country. If with i hese facts, so pa'ent to him, lie supported the proposal to placr all the forces under one system, implicit reliance should not be placed on his opinion. The evidence of ree,nt events was quite opposed to such a proposal. Upen the grounds he had stated he deprecated the change which the Government proposed to make in the bill before the house. • • Mr. J. G. BARING said with reference to the charge which had been made against the Secretary of State for India, of his not having consulted the Council of India, he would observe that, in the papers which had been laid be fore the house, they would find the opinions which were ex pressed by th e mem b ers of the counci l on t h e su bj ec t . question. He, therefore, regretted to hear what had been sa id by an hon. member about the Council of India being a me tkeiy. (Hear, hear.) When the opinions of the coun cilgiven it m a tt ere d n o t i n - w h at way t h e op i n i ons - i ere lad bass given The noble lord (Lord Stanley) who had acpouprosieleodthtlatet_Wmheinethbehrstviebf e c e o n un fu chl o , w ha ed d bpyurthsueerdreasesnitmislear. ber for Huntingdon, vote fur the second reading of the bill. AYES - 83. A dam,W. P. George, John Parker, Major W. Adderley, C. B. Grogan, Sir Edward Renton, G. W. J. Astell, J. H. Hamilton, Major Ridley, Sir M. W. Millie, H. J. Hassard, M. D. Roebuck, J. A. Baring, A. li. Hennessy, J. P. Rowley, Hon. R. if; Baring-, Thomas Hope, G. W. Salt, Thomas Beecroft, G. S. Hopwood, J. T. Sclater-Booth, G. Bernard, W. S. ' Ilorsfall, I'. B. Seymour, Digby Blackburn, P. Horsman E. Smith, J. B. Bridges, Sir 8., Bt. II umberstone, P. S. Smith, Abel Brooks, R. Kennard, C. Smollett, P. Bruen, Henry Kinnaird, Hon. A. Spooner, R. Buxton, C. linatclibull, W Stanhope, J. B. Cartwright, Col. li. Knight, F. Stirling, Wm. Cave, S. Liddell, Hon. H. G. Steuart, A. Cayley, E. S. Longlield, Robert Taylor, Colonel Codrington, Sir W. Lovaine, Lord Tollemache, J. H. Colebrooke, Sir T.E. Lyall, G. Tomlin e,' G. Cubitt, Ald. Lygon, Hon. P. Trefusis, Hon. C. IL Dodson, John G. M'Cann, J. Vance, John Da Cane, Chas. Malins,. R., Verney, Sir Harry Dunne, Col. Marjoribanks, D. C. Whalley, G. H. Egerton, Sir P. Miller, T. Willoughby, Sir IL Estcourt, S. Mills, A. Woods, Henry Farquhar; Sir M. Mowbray, Rt. Hn. J. Wynne, W. W. H. Fellowes, Edward Mure, David F'inlay, A. S. Newdegate, C. N. TELLERS Gallwey, Sir W. P. Pakington, Sir J. S Sykes, Col. W. H. Gard, It. S. Papillon, P O. Rich, li. NOES-262. Acton, Sir J. Forster, Charles North, F. Agar-Ellis, Hon. L. Foster, W. 0. O'Connell, D. Agnew, Sir A. Fortescue, Hon. D. Ogilvy, Sir J. Alcock, T. Fortescue, C. S. Onslow, Guildford , Arnott, Sir .T. Freeland, H. W. Packe, G. H. Ashley, Lord Galway, Viscount Paduiore, B. Atherton, W. .Garnett, W. J. Paget, C. Ay." , m, A. S. . Gavin, Major Paget, Lord A. Bagwell, J. Gibson, T. M. Paget, Lord C. E. Baines, E. Gifford, Earl of Pakeuham, Col. Baring, Thos. Geo. Gilpin, Colon e l Palmerston, Visct. Beach, W. B. Gladstone. W. E. Patten, J. W. Beale, Samuel Glyn, G. C. Paxton, Sir J. Beamish, F. B. Goddard, A. L. Peacocke, G. M. Beaumont, W. B. Goldsmid, Sir F. Peel, Gen. Bellew, It. M. Gore, J. It. 0. Peel, F. Bentinck, G.C. Gower, F. L. Peto, Sir M. Berkeley, F. Greenwood, J. Pevensey, Viscount Bethel!, Sir It. Gregory, W. H. Pilkington, James Black, Adam Gregson, S. Pinney, Wm. Blencowe, ,T. G. Greville, Col. F. POrtman W. H. B. Bonham-Carter, J* Grey, Rt. lin. Sir G. Powys, L. P. Bouverie, E. P. Griffith, C D. Pritchard, John Bouverie, P. P. Gr os venor, Earl Proby, Lord. G. L. Bowyer, W. Gurdon, B. Pugh, D. (Mont.) Brady, John Hadfield, Geo. Puller, C. W. Brainston, T. W. Ilanbury, R., jun. Redmond, J. B. Bright, J. Handley, John, Ricardo, J. L. Brocklehurst, John Hankey, Thomson Ricardo, 0. Brown, James Hay ter, Sir Wm. Ridley, G. Browne, Lord J. T. Headlam, Thos. E Robartes, T. J. A. Bruce, Lord E. A. Ileathcote,.G. 11. Robertson, D. Bruce, IL A. Henley, Lord Rothschild,BaronL. Buckley, Maj.-Gen. Herbert, li. A. Roupeli, W. Bulkeley, Sir R., Bt. Herbert, S. Russell, Hastings Buller, Sir A. Herbert, Col. P. E. Russell, F. W. Butt, Isaac Hervey, Lord A Russell, Sir Wm. Caird, James He gate, Sir F. Salomons,Alderman Calcutt, F. - Hill, Hon. R. Salt, Titus Calthorpe, F. H. Holland, E. Scott, Sir W. Cardwell, Rt. Hn. E. Hood, Sir A. Scrope, G. P. Carnegie; Hon. C. Hornby, W. IL Selwyn, C. J. Castlerosse, Vist. Howard, Hon. C. Seymer, H. K Cavendish, Hon. W. Howard. Lord E. G. Seymour. Sir 31. Cavemlish, Lord G. Hutt, W. Shafto, It. D. Cholmeley, Sir M. Ingham, R. Sheridan, 11. B. Churchill, Lord A. Jackson, W. Sibthorp, Major Clay, James James, Edwin Slaney,-R. A. Clifford, C. C. Jermyn; Earl Somerset, Col. E. Clifford, 11. M. Jervoise, Sir J. Stacpoole, W. Clive, George Johnstone, Sir J. Stanley, 0. Close, .M. C. Kendall, N. Stuart, Major W. . Cobbett, .T. M. Kershaw, J. Stuart, Col. Cogan, W. 11. Kinglake, A. W. Sturt, H. G. Cole, Hon. H. A. Kingscote, Lt.-Col. Sturt, Capt. C. N. Cole, J. L. Laing, S. Talbot, C. R. M. Cowper, lion. W.F. Langston ; J. H. Thornhill, W. P. Corry, H. T. Langton, 11.,G. Thynne, Lord E. Craufurd, E. H. J Lanigan, J. Thynne, Lord H. Crawford, lt. W. Lawson; W. , Tite. Wm. Crossley, Frank Leatham, E. Trollope, Sir John Dalglish, Robert Legh, W. Turner, J. A. Dalkeith, Earl of Lennox, Lord G. C. Vandeleur, Col. Deasy, Rickard Lewis, Sir G.C., Bt. Vansittart, Wm. Deedes, Wm. Lindsay, W. S. Villiers, Rt. Hon. e. Denman, G. Locke, John Vivian, li. IL Dent, John Dent Locke, Jos. Waldron, L. Dickson, Col. Lockhart, A. E. Walker, James R. Douglas, Sir C. Lowe, ltt. Hon. R. Walpole, S. H. Duff, M. E. Lysley, W. Walter, John Did!; Major. Mackie, J. Warner, Edward • Dunkalin, Lord Maguire, J. F. Watkins, J. L. V. Egerton, W. March, Earl of Way, Arthur E. • Emlyn, Viscount Marshall, W. Wemyss, J. Enfield, Viscount Martin, P. W. Western, T. S. Ennis, Jelin Martin, J. Westhead, B. Esmonde, John Massey, W. N. Whitbread, S. Euston, Earl of Matheson, A. Willcox, B. M. Evans, T. W. Mitchell, T. A. Williams, W. Ewart, William Moncreiff, J. Winnington, Sir T. Ewart, J. C. Mousell, Rt. Hn. W. Wood, Rt Hn. Sir C. Ewing, 11. E. C. Monson, W. J. Wrightson, W. B. Farrer, James Montgomery, Sir G. Wyld, James Fenwick, Henry Morris, D. Wyvill, M. Ferguson, R. Mostyn, Hon. T. E. Filmer, Sir E. Napier, Sir C. Fitzwilliam, C. W. Noel, G. J. Foley. J. H. Norris, J. T. Brand, H. B. Foijambe, F. J. S. _North, Col. Dunbar, Sir Wm. COUNTRY MARKETS. MANCHESTER-JUNE 28. A moderate attendance, and English and foreign wheat brought quite as much money, with a fair demand. Oats and oatmeal as before. Flour a slow sale, and something in favour of buyers. Indian corn in better request, at is per qr. decline. BIRMINGIIAM-JUNE 28. A limited supply of English wheat, but sales could only be had on lower terms. Barley remains barely unaltered in value. Beans less in request. Oats rather cheaper. prices were obtained. MELTON MOWBRAY_JUNR 26. There was a moderato show of wheat to-day, with a fair business at the annexed prices :—White wheat, new, 54s Od to 58s 01; red, 48s Od to 528 per 36 stone; barley in small supply, at 388 to 43s for malting, and 32s to 36s per qr. for grinding; oats, 28s to 36s Od per 24 stone; beau, 50s to 518 for old; new, 498 per 38 st. PLYMOUTII—JUNE 26. Busine s was dull to-day, and prices for oats unaltered; barley scarce, and at late prices ; wheats Is lower. A fair attendance at market. The quotations are—English white wheat, 62s to 638; red, 59s to 60s per qr ; French do., 56s to 578 • grinding ' barley, 32s to 34 8 • oats, 248 to 26s ; a n d flour, tine, 43s to 44s (id ; seconds, 41s to 425. EDINBURGII GRAIN--JUNG 27. Wheat on the top 3s Od down average Os 2d up. Barley on the top is Od up .average Is lid up. Oats on the top Os 6d up.... average Os 2d up. Beans on the top Os 6d up average 2s lid up. Averages per Imperial quarter. Wheat.... . £2 17 9 9-12ths Barley . 1 18 9 0-12ths Oats .... ' 1 11 7 5-12ths Beans 2 10 6 0-12ths Total Supply and Sales. Wheat • . 895 qrs Sold 70 qrs 8ar1ey......... 97 qrs Sold '6O qrs Oats Bl5 qrs Sold 545 qrs Beans ... 9 qrs Sold 8 qrs DERBY SMITHFIELD—JUNE 26. _. _. __ _ • There was a moderato supply of fat beasts, but a great part were only of the in ddling sort; the best quality were in r:luest, and sold well. The supply of sheep larger, but rio advance in price was obtained. Fat and store calves more plentiful. Pigs were plentiful, and in demand. Beef Bd to Sid Veal . 7d to 7 d Mutton ... Bd to tqd Pork Lamb 9d to 9%d Rough fat, 4s 9d per stone. Hides, 31d to ;id; calf skins, 6d to 61d. BIRTHS. lIILL.—On the 27th inst., at S6utham[ton, the wife of Commander IL W. Hill, R.N., of a eon. mossE.--On the 28th inst., the lady of Forbes Moan, Esq. of a son. SC'AR'P.—On the 24th inst., at Norwood, Mrs. Sharpe, of a daughter. SHAW.—On the 27th inst., at Dovereourt, Essex, the wife of Commander Shaw, i 4 N., of a daughter. MARRIAGES. GAMBLE—PRATT.—On the 27th inst., at Cambridge, Francis Gamble, M.A. of Gainsb)rough, Lincolnshire to Jane Elizabeth, eldest daughter of Mr. Remington Pratt, of Cambridge. PARES---SCOTT.—On the 27th inst., at Aylsham, William, third son of Thos. Pares, Esq , of Hopwell Hall, Derby shire, to Helen, eldest daughter of Wm. H. Scott, En, of Aylsham, Norfolk. BOSCAIV EN DEATHS. —Ou the 2Gth inst., at Salisbury, Miss Char lotte Boscawen, aged 49. BOWLITV.—On the 25th inst., the Rev. E. Bowlby, M.A., rector of Little Thur ock, aged 66. GOODMAN.—On the 27th inst., at Broomfield Cottage, Lee grove, Kent, George Goodman, Esq., aged 73. Jourrsox.—On the 27th inst., at his residence, Southlands, Isle of Wight, Sir Henry Allen Johnson, Bart., K.NY., aged 75. PARrEn.--On the 26th inst., Emily Anne, the second daughter of M r . and Mrs. Townley Parker, Cuerden, Lancashire. TowGoon.- 7 0n the 27th inst., at Hillingdon, Frederic Towgood, Esq. LONDON ,Printed and Published by MUItDO YOUNG of No. n 2, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county of Middleati, Friday, June 29, 1860. TELLERS.