The Sun. — London, England, 1859-02-19 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY). The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clock. The Duke of NORFOLK presented a petition from Horsham, complaining of the decision of the Lords Justices, and praying that Dissenters might be allowed to administer trust funds of Grammar Schools. PRIVATE BUSINESS. On the motion of Lord REDESDALE, the following bills were read a second time :—Bagnelstown and Wexford Railway, Belfast and County Down Railway, Bury St. Edmunds Gas, Commercial Dock Acts Amendment, Cork and Kinsale Junction Railway, Dublin and Drogheda Railway, Dublin and Wicklow Railway, Gloucester and Cheltenham Tramway ; Aberdare and Great Northern and Western (of Ireland) Railway-; Greenwich and South Eastern Docks ; Holyrood and Bangor Railway; Ipswich (Borough) Fishing ; Liverpool New Exchange Build ings ; Liverpool Sanitary ; Madras Irrigation Canal Company ; Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland ; (Cavan to Clones), Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland (Liffey Branch), National Fire and Life In surance Company of Scotland, Newcastle-under-Lyne Burgesses Lands, Newry and Armagh Railway, Nor wich Corn Exchange, Norwich New Streets, People's Provident Assurance Society, Pneumatic Post Company, Queen Charlotte's Lying-in Hospital, Railway Clearing System, Scarborough Gas, Standard Life Assurance Society, Thames Watermen and Lightermen, Tralee and Killarney Rail% , Trinity-House, Leith; Ulster Rail way, and Victor i 41 don) Docks. T LOCK TOWER. Lord CAMPBE complained of the tardy manner in which the works connected with the Clock Tower were prosecuted. He thought that such ,a circumstance was a standing disgrace to the nation. He gave notice that on an early day he should put a question to her Majesty's Government as to the time in which it was ex pected the works would be completed. COP YHOLD CONVEYANCE. Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from Mr. Fawcett respecting the present state of copy hold conveyance. The noble and learned lord said the law on the subject was in a very defective state, and entailed great loss and injury upon the owners of land. lie therefore thought it would be highly desir able to pass a law which would remedy the grievance so generally complained of; and with this view he hoped shortly to introduce a measure with that object. The LORD CHANCELLOR said it was impossible at that moment to discuss the provisions of the noble and learned lord's bill, as it was not before their lordships , b ut the remarks that he had addressed to the house would re ceive the best consideration of the Government. He had however alluded to the Government bill, which, to a certain extent, related to the subject, but he thought it an incon venient practice to speak on complicated legal questions in an indefinite and vague manner. EDUCATION IN SCOTLAND. The Earl of AIRLIE asked her Majesty's Government whether it was their intention during the present session to introduce a measure for the improvement of the system of education in Scotland. The noble lord addressed a few observations to their lordships, in which he allluded to the state of the schools in Scotland, to the very low salaries paid to schoolmasters, and to the cumbrous machinery which had to be put in motion to obtain the dismissal of a schoolmaster who had shown himself incapable to properly discharge his duties. Thhe Earl of DERBY said it was desirable that the salaries of schoolmasters should be increased, but whenever the sum was introduced there was so much difference of opinion that up to the present time the point remained unsettled. He could not at the present time say the Go vernment were prepared to introduce a bill on the subject, although he should be much pleased if a moderate mea sure could be framed. He could only say that his learned friend the Lord Advocate was to communicate with the heritors, and if he should be enabled to bring forward a bill it would afford him much pleasure. At the present moment the only answer he could give the noble earl was, that Government would give the subject their most earnest attention. Their lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY. ) The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. NEW MEMBER. Mr. Warrzsinz took the oaths and his seat for the Uni• versity of Dublin. PETITIONS. Several petitions were presented praying for the repeal of the duty on paper; that persons employed in the suburban and provincial districts should be placed on the same footing with reference to superannuation as the employees in. the General Post-office in the metropolis ; for the admission. of Dissenters to the trusteeship of Grammar Schools and other foundations ; and in favour of Parliamentary Reform, SMITHFIELD MARKET. At the request of Mr. WA.LPOLF, Mr. T. DUNCOMBE postponed till Monday next the following question, of which he had given notice—Whether anything decisive had been determined on with regard to the vacant site of the late Smithfield Market, if so, when it was likely a decision on the subject would be arrived at by her Majesty's Government ?.... THE INDIAN LOAN. Mr. ROBERTSON asked the Secretary of State for India whether, in the event of a loan being authorised to be raised in this country, any authority that might have been given to Lord Canning to raise money by , loan or deben tures, at six per cent. per annum, would be at once can celled ; and whether the Five per Cent Loan, now opened in Calcutta, would be closed ? Lord STANLEY said that he would postpone his reply to the question until the house went into committee on the Indian Loan, when he would make a statement on the subject. RECRUITING IN THE ARMY. Captain VIVIAN asked the Secretary for War whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to appoint a committee or royal commission to inquire into the whole system of recruiting in the army? General PEEL said it was the intention of the Govern ment, with her Majesty's concurrence, to appoint a royal commission on the subject. ENDOWED SCHOOLS IN IRELAND. _ Sergeant DEASY asked the Chief Secretary for Ire land whether it was the intention of the Government to in troduce any measure on this subject, and if so, at what time he would be prepared to introduce the measure ? Lord NAAS said Government intended to introduce such a measure, but he could not state the day when it would be brought forward. THE DANUBIAN PROVINCES—THE ARMY side and light and airy inside. (Laughter.) They had not a large amount of sun in this climate, and these buildings should be so constructed as to admit all the light from the exterior, and refle,:t all the light in the interior. (Renewed laughter.) THE ACCOUNTS AND STORES AT WEEDON. Mr. J. A. TURNER wished to state the reasons why the Royal Commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of the books and stores at Weedon, Woolwich, •ti d the Tower, had not yet sent in their report. It was much t o be regretted that Mr. Selfo had been prevented by illness from attending, but that circumstance alone would not have prevented the presentation of the report ; there were other circumstances which prevented it. They had found the books at Weedon in hopeless confusion, no day-books had been kept, no store ledgers had been entered up, and the only vouchers were a number of loose documents, which were most unsatisfactory, and out of place. Commissary-General Adams was there with eight commissaries, and 20 clerks, to unravel these matters. The commissioners, however, after their return, suggested to the War-office that as they must insist on their own accountant, Mr. Jay, of the firm of Quilter and Ball, going through these accounts for their satisfaction, it would be a saving of expense to allow them, instead of Com missary-General Adams, to complete the investigation. This was acceded to, and the accounts and books had since been in the hands of Mr. Jay and his assistants. A letter from Mr. Jay, written on the 9th inst., informed them that he did not think it possible to bring the investigation to a conclusion in less than two or three months. There were also three other accounts the commissioners wanted to have rendered. At the Tower they found that the store-ledger had been balanced in Oct., 1857, and at the same period an account of the stock in hand at the Tower was taken—a very laborious operation, since there were 13,000 to 15,000 different articles in store there. The.commissioners had thought it their duty to have the state of the ledgers, as balanced by the clerks at the Tower when that operation was last performed before, compared with the actual sur vey or counting of the articles, performed by persons whom they sent down for the purpose. They had applied to the War office for the comparative account, and that day, since he put this notice on the paper, he had got a communication from the War office, stating that the store-ledger to October, 1857, had now been examined, and on a comparison of what then remained as the balance with the balance which remained in 1858, differ ences were found to exist in the quantity of various stores, some showing a surplus and some a deficiency ; these would have to be ascertained and balanced. The commissioners had asked for another account from the Tower, a complete list of all the stores called obsolete. They had found still existing there 50,000 old flint muskets ' and a vast quantity of other articles which ne ver wou ld b e put to any beneficial use, and ought to be disposed of for what they would fetch. The commissioners had requested that a complete list of those articles should be sent them, and they wanted a simi lar account fro m Woolwich. When these accounts were rendered, and Mr. Jay had finished his task, they would endeavour to send in their report. Colonel BOLDERO said the country was greatly in debted to the hon. member for Manchester for the indefati gable industry, ability, and business knowledge, which he had brought to this investigation, which had occupied him during the recess. He wished to know how many clerks Mr. Jay had at Weedon, and what they cost, to do the work for which the War-office employed a commissary-general, eight commissioners, and twenty clerks. He thought the commissioners might iiresent their report without waiting for these statistics, which could form the contents of an ap pendix. General PEEL said he was quite as anxious for the pro duction of this report as the hon. member himself could be, and had done all he could to facilitate it. With regard to the Weedon accounts, he had at once acceded to, the sug gestion of the commissioners, that their own accountant could go through those accounts more speedily than the commissary-general, and put an end to that expense. There had been a delay at the Tower, from the illness of the store keeper, but the work should be proceeded with as fast as possible. THE CAPTURE OF THE CHARLES ET GEORGES. Mr. KINGLAKE asked the - Under - Secretary for Foreign Affairs when the papers relating to the capture and restoration of the Charles et Georges would be laid on the table ? Statements, he said, had gone forth to Europe not promulgated in newspapers or pamphlets, but in the official documents laid before the Cortes by the Sovereign of Porta gal—statements which impugned the credit of England,and which imputed to the British representative at Lisbon that he, in consequence of the instructions conveyed in a tele graphic despatch from Lord Malmesbury, signed a document involving a most painful surrender of all that England ought to think herself justified in contending for. When Parliament met the right hon. gentleman said that the papers would be laid before the house, with the full convic tion that the British Government had faithfully performed its duty, and that terms had been obtained for Portugal which would have been satisfactory to all Europe—that the conduct of England towards Portugal had been such as it ought to be towards an ancient ally. Now, the charge against the Government being so grave, and the right hon. gentleman thinking the defence so complete and triumphant, one would have expected that Ministers would not have lost an hour in laying that defence before Parliament. These transactions terminated in October last year. During the last fortnight the house had not been so much occupied with other business but that a discussion on this matter might have conveniently taken place ; but the effect of the non-production of these papers was, that all discussion was warded off until after the house should be pledged to the debates on the Reform Bill. When he asked a question about it the other day he was told that these papers were " in a state of preparation ;" and he did not like that term, for it gave the impression that they were undergoing some culinary process. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) Mr. S. FITZGERALD said he would now reply to the four several questions which had been addressed to him by different hon. gentlemen. One of those hon. members (Mr. Wise) was in error in thinking that Mr. H. Vyse had been ap pointed consul at Jeddo ; it was only vice-consul, and as such he would be in a strictly subordinate position, under an expe rienced chief. The question asked would rather imply that the appointments in China had not been properly distributed. The fact was that in no instance had greater care ever been taken with such appointments. Out of thirteen appoint ments in China and Japan that were rendered necessary by the new arrangements, amounting altogether to upwards of £14,000 a year, twelve had been entirely made in the way of promotion of those who had heretofore distinguished themselves in the public service. (Cheers.) There was no recommendation of the consular committee that made it ob jectionable to appoint a very intelligent gentleman to the subordinate post intended for Mr. Howard Vyse. In reply to the hon. member for Dartmouth, he was sure it would be believed that it was by no discourtesy on his own part, but by some accident or inadvertence of others, that the omission occurred in the papers of the matter to which his attention was directed. The hon. member asked whether her Ma jesty's Government had received any reply from the Peru vian Government to the communication made by Lord Malmesbury some months age. Her Majesty's Government had received no reply. In the last communication they had received from Peru it was mentioned that a proposition to throw open the trade in guano in the Chincha Islands had been made to the Peruvian Government, and had been re ceived with some favour, but they had no other information. He agreed that to obtain an abandonment of the monopoly was most important to British agriculture, but her Majesty's Government could do nothing more than to make represen tions on the subject; this had been done, and he hoped the renewed efforts would have a more favourable result. The question asked by another hon. member (Mr. Hutt) was as to a letter written by Lord Malmesbury in answer to a memorial from the Chamber of Commerce at Greenock. Ho did not mean to enter into any discussion of the navi gation laws, or the distress of the shipping interest, but the hon. gentleman must have been very hard up for a grievance when he brought forward this. In the man ner in which he had dealt with that letter there was much ingenuity, but not much fairness nor justice. The hon. gentleman asked tho house to look at a few detached words, and pass a condemnation on the noble lord's letter. Under what circumstances was that letter written ? A memorial was addressed by the Chamber of Commerce at Greenock with reference to the differential duties, requesting that some measure should be devised for extricating the shipowners from their unfortunate position, and obtaining reciprocal concessions. The noble lord, in his reply, stated that at the time of the repeal of the navigation laws many opinions were expressed that Parliament was going too far, and that we should give up everything and receive nothing in return. The question was whether the apprehensions then expressed had been justified or not. It had been said that'France and Spain had refused to reciprocate. But he would ask the hon. gentleman if he had heard no complaints as to the coasting trade of the United States? Had he never heard British shipowners complain that they could not sail from New York to San Francisco without being told that they were engaged in the coasting trade ? (Hear.) The noble lord in his letter had done nothing more than recite an historical fact in stating that the apprehensions with respect to the reciprocity with foreign natioxs had been fully justi fied. The hon. gentleman had conjured up a design on the part of the noble lord or the Government to raise an agita tion with a view to the re-enactment of the navigation laws; but he thought no hon. member could imagine that any such idea was entertained. (Hear.) The only other question which he had to answer related to the Charles et Georges. He did not know by whom the accusations referred to had been made, but if there were any persons who were likely to say the honour of the country was neglected, it was not so much the newspapers as the opponents of the Government opposite, whose wish was probably father to the thought. (Hear.) He was now in a position to promise that the papers relating to this matter should be laid on the table on Mon day or Tuesday rest, and as they would be presented in a printed shape, there would be ample time for the discussion of the subject before the Reform Bill was brought forward. The motion for adjournment was then agreed to. CHURCH RATES. LOrd J: RUSSELL inquired what business the Govern ment intended to proceed with on Monday Arr. WALPOLE replied that it was his intention, after disposing'of the India Loan Bill, to propose on Monday that the orders of the day be postponed for the purpose of bring,ing forward the church rate question. EAST INDIA LOAN. 0 7 . - t — iii l rise to move that Lord STANLthe house resolve into committee s subject, and I may possibly save time by off er i ng „ me . explanations respecting the discre • pancy betwe en the statement made by me the other night t lB5-7 at £33,303,000, and s Parliamentary accounts. I stated the gross revenu es o f India for partfoofr that year that difference is due to put it at £29,702,000. ' The greate r the cause I mentioned at the time, namely, the diff ere n ce t I i n computing the exchange of the rupee ahen accounts the v at 2s. sterling, wh ereas in t he Parliamentary took the rupee n ; rupee is taken at ls. 10 I d. I beli eve the about Is. 100., but the exchange value at the bulli on i ttime s has even exceeded 2s. I think that in 1831 thepSrie wa s assumed at 2 5., w hich g ave a value to the Coeemap_ w Company's rupee rupee of Is. 101 d. ; bu t I believe that the v a l ue I took was near to the actual val ue of the exchange at the present time. This difference of value accounts for a discrepa ney to the amount of £2,081,462. Another cause of discrepancy, which at the time I was not aware of, is that in the Parlia mentary accounts a considerable number of charges on the one hand and receipts on the other are not included, having been considered not properly as forming part of revenue. The receipts deducted from charges in, the. Parliamentary accounts, instead of being credited as revenue, amount to £1,519,075, making the total discrepancy £3,600,537. As regards the balance between income and expenditure, it is obvious that no difference exists. A question may arise, whether some of those items which appear in the account ought to appear in it at all. I think that they ought, and I propose, after a mature consideration of the subject, that Parliamentary accounts shall contain every item re ceived and expended. The difference in receipts deducted co cre ui dited as revenue, in evenue, from charges is Parliamentary £l,sl9,o7s, acc instead te di a ftre a n b c e e ing in Plltiug the exchange beittg 4081,462, the aggregatO ESTIMATES. On the motion for the adjournment of the house till Monday, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that in rising on that motion he wished to make a few observations with reference to the motions on the paper brought forward when such adjournment was moved. Out of eight ques tions seven of them were on subjects that might legiti mately be brought before the house, but one of them was relative to a matter that should not have been introduced at that time. The terms of the motion were the following : "To call the attention of the house to the organisation of the Danubian Provinces, in as far as it is affecttd by the election of Alexander John Sourza to be Hospodar of Wallachia, he having been previously elected Hospo dar of Moldavia." That motion referred to a most important subject, which it would be most incon venient to consider in the house at that time. He would not then enlarge on the question, as at the present moment the conference at Paris on the subject - was about to be revived. It would not be desirable to bring it forward on that occasion; and, when brought forward, it should be in a more formal manner. Lord J. RUSSELL said he concurred with the right hon. gentleman (the Chanchellor of the 'Ex chequer), that the question contained in the motion should not have been raised on the motion for the adjourn ment of the house. He would take that opportunity of asking the Secretary of State for the War Department whether he was serious in the intention which he had ex pressed of going into the war estimates on Monday next. It was the usual praetice that the navy estimates should be taken first. Sir De L. EVANS hoped that in bringing forward these estimates the hon. and gallant Secretary would make some general statement on the subject. General PEEL said that he merely proposed to get the power to raise the necessary number of soldiers for the public service, without asking for any money, and if op posed to the wishes of the house he would withdraw it for the present. Mr. STAPLETON, in withdrawin g the motion alluded to, gave notice that he would bring the subject forward again. THE NAVIGATION LAWS. Mr. HUTT called the attention of the house to a letter dated Foreign-office, 10th Nov., 1858, signed G. Hammond, purporting to be a communication from the Earl of Malmes bury to the Chamber of Commerce of Greenock, on the subject of the Navigation Laws. LETTERS TO THE COLONIES. Mr. A. STEUART asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether any complaints had reached him regarding the non -delivery of letters posted in this country for the colo nies ; and if so, whether he could suggest any remedy, by rendering it optional to pre-pay wholly or in part, or other wise? Sir S. NORTHCOTE said that there ) certainlyte had b ee n some complaints with respect t( delivery of letters posted in this country for Australia ...- a number of which, it was stated, d not re ached their destination. The Government had made inquiries, but could not ascertain the cause of the non delivery. In cases where the letters had been prepaid in money probably the postmasters had appropriat e d th e money, and the only r emedy he could suggest wa s th at letters should be prepaid in stamps. • THE - FOREIGN OFFICE. Sir BENJAMIN HALL asked the First Commissioner of Works to state the reasons which induced him to adopt the plan for the re-construction of the Foreign Office to which the third premium was adjudged, and to reject those plans to which the first and _second premiums were awarded ; also, whether he would have any objection to place in cne of the committee rooms the three sets of plans as they were exhibited in Westminst er. hall, in order that the members of the House of Commons might have the opportunity of seeing them before any further steps were taken in relation to the design to which the third premium was given. Lord T. MANNERS vindicated the course pursued by the select committee in the adoption alluded to. If honourable members wished to re-examine the three original designs he had no objection to their being Placed in a committee-room for that purpose. He asked the house to give the'Executive fair play, and not interfere thein matter a t the p r e s ent time. After a few words from Sir B. HALL, I'MVIS defended the late Government, who had brought in a bill on the subject, which had been thrown out by the opposition Mr. T received from the present Government. a previous occaa d io t n hat in the observation he had made on , t,: he only question, he thought, be fore the house w as the respective merits of Gothic and Italian architectu re . thought the noble lord pro posed to commit himself u had no idea, in throwing an expenditure of which he te rn the estimate to the tenders of builders of which no practical knowledge. He thought that the house 434 have an opportunity of judging for themselves, and repeated his objections to if* incongruity of the style selected by the noble lord for the new offices. Mr. CONINGHAM opposed the adoption of arc hitecture in the proposed building. the Gothic Lord PALMER TON said, that under 1.11 the re ei s t an ces the late Government could not be ac cuse d of into,_ sistenCY - in respect to this question , and th e present - Go vernment ought not to have made thei r se led:ion from those who had not obtained the f i rst pr i z e. He agreed with the honourable member for Bath, that before they incurred the expense of designs and estimates, they should have an opportunity of de ciding on the style of architecture to be adopted. He was strongly , opposed to the Gothic style for the War-OtaGefi l wxuch 0110t44 PO P 7 0,44 light at. THE SUN, LONDON, SATIT_RDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 19, 1859. difference is £3,600,537. After this explanation, I hope the house will free me from any charge of inaccuracy. (Cheers.) There is another matter, though a small one, to which I may allude. When I calculated the number of European forces in India I used the last returns received from India, dated October. But nearly 20,000 men went out between June and December, and a large proportion of these would probably not have reached India in time to be included in the return for October. My statement was accurate as far as it went, but there is a larger charge for troops than would be accounted for in the statement I made. With regard to the public works in India, I have seen some doubt expressed whether the returns from these works were accurately given. I have since gone through the figures and verified them from official documents, and I find they are strictly accurate. These figures were not founded upon the calculations of en gineers, but upon the statements of the Board of Revenue, whose calculations appear in despatches and minutes, in which it is the object of the Board to show where the esti mates of the engineers may be too sanguine, and to reduce the total to the true amount. With regard to the question put to me by an hon. member as to the authority given to Lord Canning to raise a loan at 6 per cent., I thought it de sirable not to answer it when it was first put, as it seemed to require some explanation. The state of the case was this:—. Last July the Government of India thought they had cause to apprehend a more serious embarrassment than they had hitherto experienced, or than has, in fact, resulted, and underthese circumstances they addressed to the Government here a despatch which, with the reply, I shall be prepared to lay upon the table. They enumerated the various alter natives by whichthat embarrassment might be relieved, one being that large remittances should be made from this coun try, and others referring to the various ways in which money might be raised in India at a higher rate of interest than had hitherto been given. That was not a case of op tion, but of necessity. There were no means at the time of making remittances from this country to the amount that was necessary, and on the Bth of September the Indian Department authorised the issue of Treasury notes at 6 per cent., if it should be found necessary. No intimation has, up to this time, been received that this authority has been acted upon, and it is obvious that this is a resource to which the Government of India will not willingly have recourse, unless under circumstances that leave it no option. The rate of interest hitherto paid by the Government of India has not been nominally above 5 per cent. I say has not been nominally above 5 per cent., because in point of fact it has been a good deal more. The 6 per cent. loan is about 92. Of course no one will subscribe to that loan at par when he can buy it at 92 ; and the operation is that 4 per cent. paper, which can be bought at 82, is allowed to be paid in with an equivalent amount of cash into the 5 per cent. loan. The natural working is that any person is allowed to pay £l,OOO in 4 per cent. paper, and he gets 5 per cent., provided he also pays in £l,OOO cash. The effect is that, ix consideration of getting £l,OOO cash at 5 per cent., the Government is paying 1 per cent. more upon an equal amount of paper; so that the Government of India is borrowing practically . at a little less than 6 per cent., and the power of issuing Treasury notes at 6 per cent. is a greater increase in appearance than in reality. It was expected that there might be a necessity for issuing the 6 per cent. Treasury notes, but the last returns received on Monday show a considerable increase in the open 5 per cent. loan, and not the least gratifying circum stance is that the increased subscription is principally from native sources. (Hear.) With regard to the authority to raise money by Treasury notes at 6 per cent., I have stated that I hope the occasion will not arise for its being used, but it is not contemplated that the authority shouldbe with drawn. As to the closing of the 5 per cent., it does not ap pear to be desirable at present. It is the general feeling in this country that India ought, as far as possible, to supply the capital that maybe required for works in India. (Hear.) It is not easy to explain why there should be this difference between the price paid in India and that in England. Some hon. members may be able to explain the reason, but I can not, although it is a fact that a difference in the rate of in terest upon the same security has existed for a considerable time. Last year the average price paid for the £8,000,000 loan you sanctioned was -If per cent. here, while the rate at Calcutta was between 5 and 6. There is one other question upon the amount of Indian debt as estimated by me. I have seen, since Monday, various comments and remarks upon that debt which indicate some confusion as to its actual amount. I have been asked why I did not include the £40,000,000 of railway guarantees. My answer is, that the £40,000,000 of railway capital, on which interest is guaran teed, has not been in any sense a burden upon the Indian revenue. The railway guarantees are no charge; they are an investment, and when the lines are opened we shall pro bably see the railways a source of profit. Again, I am asked why East India Stock was not included. East India Stock is never included, because it is not a permanent but a ter minable charge, which will cease in 1784, and, therefore, cannot have a place in any general calculation of the per manent resources and burdens of Indian revenue. I thought, also, that I could not safely include the £7,000,000 of de posits. It is hardly possible to say how much of that £7,000,000 constitutes a real liability upon the Government of India. These deposits are composed of various items. They are a possible liability, but there is always a balance of them. Above 4000,000 is bullion in the Treasury. A part of these deposits is not likely to be required, and upon the whole no interest is paid. Therefore I did not include them in my statement of the debt. When these deductions are made, it will be found that my statement of the amount of the debt is strictly accurate. Up to April, 1857, the debt of India was, by the Parliamentary account, £52,074,986. There had been borrowed in India up to November, 1858, £7,468,181. The debenture loan of last year was £8,000,000. The home bond debt is £7,000,000. and the aggregate debt bearing interest is thus £74,513,167. I do not know the exact amount, but it is comparatively small, which has been borrowed in India since the Bth of November, 1858, when the return was made up. I thought ' it better to offer these explanations at the present time. (Cheers.) I now move, sir, that you leave the chair. The h . ouza ihcn vrentint; cviniLittoo, and Mr. Frrsuoy, the Chairman, read the resolution, to the effect that it was expedient that the Secretary of State for India should have power to raise money in England for the use of the Govern ment in India. Sir C. WOOD was afraid that further discrepancies might be found than those which had been pointed out by the noble lord in the explanations which he had just given to the house. He entirely concurred in most of the remarks of the noble lord on a previous night relative to the difficulties which had arisen from the war expenditure, but thought that his statements with regard to public works were not sufficiently full and satisfactory. With respect to the loan for war ex penses, he of course did not intend to offer any opposition to the-motion of the noble lord. As he understood, the noble lord proposed to defray the war expenses for the ensuing year out of the loan of £7,000,000, but he hid not pointed out the operations which the Government expected to be undertaken, or whether they imagined they would be able to bring those operations to a close without a further loan. The noble lord at present proposed to raise a loan of seven millions, and he did not know that he could take a wiser course. He now came to the most important matter—the financial state of India. The financial state of any country was of importance, but looking to the present state of India, it was one of great importance, not only to India, but to this country. In this country, when there was an increased ex penditure, there was no great difficulty in putting on some fresh tax. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) If there Were an increase in the navy estimates, the Chancellor of the Ex chequer would, by increasing the income tax, or by some other mode, find a means of defraying the expenditure. But when the revenue of a country was in the state which he was sorry to say that of India was at this moment, they could not find fresh sources in India. And he thought it was incumbent on the noble lord, and it was incumbent on the house, when the Indian finances were brought before them for the first time since India had been brought under the government of the Queen, that they should carefully look to the state of those finances. The ordinary state of Indian finance for some years past had been that of an an nual deficit. If the Secretary for India and the council, supported by that house, did not pay the most earnest atten tion to that question, depend upon it, they would bring great liabilities upon this country. The noble lord intimated to them the other night something like a moral responsibility on this country. Now, he protested against any liability being imposed on this country on account of India. (Cheers.) He was sure it would be detrimental to the government of India if they supposed that they could fall back en the finances of this country. If they were to undertake liabilities in India, they might be called upon to do so for the colo nies. If they were to admit the intimation made by others last year, and by the noble lord this year, they would be drifting into a responsibility which he was sure the house was not prepared to undertake. He would say one word more on this subject, not in reference to the noble lord, but to warn the house against this possible danger. That house had shown itself not indisposed. to meddle with this subject in two ways. The house was disposed not long since to take a course which would put in great jeopardy the revenue from salt, and the other night an hon. member gave notice of a motion to take away the revenue from opium. If they took away Indian revenue by imperial legislation then they would incur not a moral but a legal responsibility. (Hear, hear.) They must be cautious in dealing with Indian revenue and Indian deficit, and they must oppose directly or indirectly any liability which this country ought not to undertake. (Hear, hear.) The ordinary revenue of India at the present moment was not so satisfactory as he should be gl a d t o see it.. He was speaking of the ordinary, independent of the war expenditure. The accounts which were laid on the table last July contained the accounts for India up to April, 1857, just before the mutiny broke out. • In 1850-51 there was a surplus of upwards of £400,000; in 1851-52, a surplus of £531,000 ; in 1852-53, a surplus of £424,000. Those were the accounts which were received in this country when he had the honour of being President of the Board of Control, and the revenues of India had not been in so satisfactory a state for some time. They availed themselves of that opportunity of reducing the charge on the Indian debt. Objections were made to that course in this country, but he thought that on financial grounds it was perfectly right. The interest of the debt was reduced to the extent of half a million. Well, next year a change of cir cumstances took place, and instead of there being a surplus of nearly half a million there was a deficiency of two mil lions ; in the subsequent year of £1,700,000 ; in the follow ing year, of £972,000. The deficit of the three years ex ceeded very considerably the surplus of the three preceding years, the surplus amounting to £1,300,000, and the defi ciency to £4,700,000. In the subsequent year there was a surplus of £143,000. He said he would refer to the in crease of expenditure as well as the increase of revenue. He found that the charge had increased more than the reve nue, and whatever had been the increase of revenue the charge had increased more. In 1851 there was a surplus of £400,000; in 1856-7 a deficit of £150,000. That was the state of things up to the last period before the commence ment of the war. And now let them see how they would stand after all the war expenditure had been incurred. Supposing that by the Ist of May, 1860, the war establishment was put down and the troops disbanded. He had shown that in the l as t ten years the charge had increased more than the revenue, and it would not be unfair to assume that the charge and expenditure would be the same then. But then they would have borrowed £26,000,000 for the 0 on the pur poses of the war, and he hoped that would be the whole that they would h ave to borrow. He could not say that he thought it would, b ut he wished to understate the case and thendodt e dto wholetot overstate hec amount.ha ritg Thee Ile would innedr ei a as s tn s ourfme revenue, that nautew, £oau would O th O pa O kv , jfiOeogOt wastheb e a interest at 4f per cent. it would be £1,170,000 a year, and adding that to the existing deficit there would be a deficit of from a million and a quarter to a million and a half. How was that to be met ? He was bound to say, after his tribute to the lucid statement of the noble lord, that it was exceed ingly deficient in holding out to them any houe - or prospect IA prlACticg WAY 14917 t a 5 Was to be met, The Aoki 194 stated various sources from which an increased income would arise. He stated that 60 per cent, of the receipts was de rived from the land revenue, and he showed clearly enough that there was no prospect of that being increased. ,He stated that it had been increased by annexation and by the cultivation of waste lands. Annexation he stated had ceased, and he was exceedingly glad to hear the noble lord say it was undesirable to annex native states. When he was at the Board of Con trol he never suffered annexation to take place when a heir, even by adoption, could be found ; but there were certain annexations made where there were no heirs. The house would find that the increase of the land tax was almost entirely by annexation. It had increased from £17,355,000 in 1861 to £19,863,000 in 1856-7; but the land revenue of Nagpore and Oude was £1,500,000, and the increase was almost entirely due to the annexation of those provinces. But now annexation had ceased. And he did not think there was possibility of its being increased in our own districts. He thought, indeed, that in some cases it ought to be reduced, and in the presidency of Madras Lord Harris did reduce it in one province, but he chose one that was in circumstances favourable to the experiment, and the revenue recovered itself in two years. But that was an exceptional case. He believed that on the whole there was as much prospect of a decrease as of an increase in the land revenue. Then there was the revenue from opium. Like the noble lord, he saw no more objection to raising a tax en opium than to raise a tax on spirits. He did not think that the use of opium was more injurious than the excessive use of spirits or wine, and the mode in which the tax was raised was not open to the objections that there existed to an excise duty. In 1850-1 the revenue from opium was £3,500,000, in 1846 it had in creased to £4,697,000, in 1857-8 it was £6,443,000, and the estimate for this year was £5,195,000. It rose £1,800,000 one year, and another year it fell £1,300,000. It was ob vious therefore that the revenue from opium was very pre carious. But there was another consideration. He was afraid—at least he did not say he was afraid—but as far as the Indian revenue went he was afraid, as far as the Indian revenue was concerned, that the Chinese Govern ment, which had sanctioned the admission of opium, would legalise its cultivation in that country, and if the export of opium from India should cease the revenue from opium would cease. Dr. Bowrmg, when in this country, told him that if opium were cultivated in China we should still be able to supply them on account of the superior quality of the Indian opium, but at a much reduced cost. But in that case there would not be the profit there was now, and there would not therefore be exports to the same extent. The next largest source of revenue was salt, and, in point of fact, that was the only article of consumption on which any duty was levied. But they could not expect any in crease on the duty on that article. The duty rose and fell without any apparent reason, and it was more likely to, fall off than to increase. He how came to the expenditure. The noble lord said truly that there was no likelihoed of any increase in the revenue, and that what they had to look to was a decrease in the expenditure. He was disappointed in the noble lord's statement in that respect, and expected that he would have given them some clearer notions of the mode by which he would decrease expendi ture than those which fell from him on Monday night. The noble lord proposed to reduce the civil expenditure, and he said he would do it by two measure ; first, by reducing the salaries of the European agents, and next by the employ ment, in greater numbers, of native agents. With regard to the reduction of the salaries of European servants, the words had scarcely escaped the noble lord's lips when he said he could scarcely find more candidates by competition even than there were situations to fill, and that on one oc casion there were not so many candidates as places. Again, they knew that even private merchants found it necessary to give to the persons they employed in India much higher salaries than they paid in this country, and higher than the company's servants received. The noble lord had ex pressed a hope that there would be a reduction in the mili tary expenditure. Hd (the right hon. baronet) hoped and trusted that there would ; but he also hoped that the noble lord would have said something more than he had done as to the mode in which that reduction might be brought about. It might be true that there were now no great native powers like Runjeet Singh, or Scindiah ; but many years ago when he (Sir C. Wood) pressed thenecessity of reduction upon Lord Dalhousie, the noble lord gave him the very same reasons which the noble lord opposite now adduced why the military expenditure should be diminished as reasons why it should be increased. He consulted Lord Hardinge on the point, and by his advice he assented to the creation of three new European regiments for India. At that time he was in correspondence with Lord Hardinge as to the substitution of irregular horse for regular cavalry, which was a much more expensive, but not more useful corps. And here he (the right honourable baronet) could not help paying a tribute to the great ser vices of a very able officer who had recently died : he meant General Jacob. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord had given them no intimation as to how he thought the re duction of the army might be effected; but he (Sir C. Wood) thought we should be utterly without justification if we did not maintain a large European force in India than we had yet done. (Hear, hear.) Let us have none but Eu ropean artillery ; let it be armed with the most efficient possible weapons ; and let it be stationed in barracks in the healthiest situations in the country. In that manner we might perhaps be able to reduce the native army ; but a na tive army there always must be for purposes of police ; and in order to do the ordinary work of the army. Anyhow, we must-have the expenditure within the income for India. (Hear, hear.) The only other financial feature in the noble lord's speech struck him as being most objectionable. He referred to the guarantee proposed to be given to the Madras Irrigation Company to the extent of a million, and to the contemplated guarantees of some minor railways. Thewhole system of guarantees was in truth most objectionable. It might perhaps in the first instance have been necessary to guarantee the great trunk lines ; but for the Government to aid companies to compete with.their own loan was about as unwise a step as could be adopted. The policy of raising funds for India in this country was at least questionable. It should be our task to encourage native capitalists to invest their money to as great an extent as possible; forthe moment they lent their money to the Government their loyaltymight be implicitly depended upon. Accordingly, in the late crisis the moneyed classes had proved themselves the mostfaithful supporters of British rule. (Hear, hoar.) The noble lord told them that the return that might be expected from works of irrigation was certain and large. But surely, if that was the case, there could be no necessity for offering a guarantee on enterprises which were certain to yield a return of 26, 40, 100, and even more than cent. per cent. (Hear, hear.) He strongly objected to this sort of partnership between the Government and private individuals ; it was a connexion from which the public might reap loss, but from which it was impossible for it to enjoy any advantage. He trusted, therefore, that the house would express its opinion in a manner that would operate as a check upon the practice. (Hear.) The liabilities of India according to the last returns were 82 millions sterling, to which must be added the sum borrowed in India, £8,700,000; makin" thus a total of £90,700,000 —an amount of liability which ought to make the house-unwilling to add to it another million. (Hear.) Unless the expenditure of the Indian Government could be brought within its income, there was danger not only of its becoming a charge upon the imperial exchequer, but of serious complications arising in our Eastern territories themselves. We had a great mission to perform in India; but the basis of all good administration lay in a wise and economical system of finance. (Cheers.) Sir E. PERRY said the right hon. baronet had just stated what was the real question the house had to consider, namely, how they were to restore the balance between the revenue and the expenditure of India ? The right hon. gentleman had drawn a most gloomy picture of Indian finance ; and he had shown that many of the existing sources of income could not be depended upon. Three years ago he (Sir E. Perry) had himself pointed out that principles of finance were being acted upon that must lead to national insolvency, and principles of government that must bring about national disaffection. He was then called a croaker; but now a Cabinet Minister and an ex-Cabinet Minister were agreed upon the precarious state of the revenue. What was the amount of the debt at the present moment? The noble lord had stated it at £74,500,000; and the right hon. baronet at £90,000,000. He (Sir E. Perry) would now give his estimate of it. From the published parliamentary papers he took the debt at £82,000,000, but to that must be added £10,000,000 of debt which did not bear interest, but which the Government might at any moment be called on to repay. Then, £12,000,000 must be added to represent the £630,000 payable annually to the proprietors of the East India stock. A sum had been set apart to accumulate at compound interest, in order to defray that charge ; but till 1874 there would be a charge equal to the interest of 12 millions. These Reins together made a total of £103,776,565 to which must be added the new loan of seven millions, making thus a total dedt of £110,776,565. Th e y h a d been told that the debt of India did not much exceed two years' revenue ; but in making a comparison of that kind he main tained that they ought to take not the gross, but the net income, which was £23,000,000 a year. Thus- the total amount of the debt was equivalentto more than four years' revenue. (Hear.) That might not seem to be a very heavy burden when compared with some European debts ; but when the inelastic character of Indian finances was taken into consideration it would be seen that it was in reality very onerous. The interest paid yearly was made up of the fol lowing sums :—payable in India, £3,500,000 ; in London, £1,230,000; temporary loans, £48,000; civil service an nuities, &c., £1,439,003 ; total, £6,217,000. He need not dwell on these figures, for it was admitted that the finances of India were alarming. (Hear.) Though it was said that no imperial guarantee would be given for the new debt, the house must not be deluded by such an announcement. The holders of East India paper had in reality a better security than was enjoyed by any public creditor in Europe. The holders of bonds could not sue the government; but the holders of India paper might sue the secretary and council, and might sell the India-house, or the new India-office, which he hoped Mr. Scott was not going to build in the Gothic style. (Hear, hear.) If ever matters came to that pass, this country would either have to pay the money or to give up India. If he agreed with the right hon. baronet (Sir C. Wood) he should say that in a pecuniary sense it would be better to take the latter course. He was not of course speaking of the moral claims which a country pos-. sessed upon us after we had deposed every native ruler and made self-government impossible ; but on other grounds he could not coincide with the right hon. gentleman. He thought that they ought to lay down a strict rule that the expenditure should be kept within the income; and if an emergency like that through which we had just passed occurred, this country ought to take the extra charge upon herself. Much as it might shock the moneyed circles to propose an addition of £30,000,000 to the burdens of this country, he ventured to think that if they contrasted the wars for which we had expended hundreds of millions with what India might be made worth to us, the balance would be found vastly in favour of a war for the maintenance of our Eastern possessions. The borrowing system ought, howevey to be put a n en d t o . T o g i ve an examp l e o f th e i improvdent manner in w hi c h l oans had b een resor t e d t o , it was estimated that there would be a deficit upon the year 1856-7 of two millions sterling ; but it turned out that the real deficiency was only £143,000. Nevertheless, there was a loan of a million and a half. (Hear, hear.) d He should have been glad if the noble lord had explained where the interest of the new loan was to come from. Ho agreed with the noble lord rather than with the right hon. gentleman as to the feasibility of reducing the civil expenditure ; for he was convinced that the Government of India could not be satis - factorily carried on unless the natives were allowed to take a large share in it. (Hear, hear.) Much had been said in the last 20 months of the increased strength gained by the successes of our arm s . It was s aid we m i g ht di sre gard the prejudices of the natives, employ more Europeans in office, introduce our Bible into our schools, and even disre gard caste. That seemed to be the opinion of the right hon. baronet, who said that a greater number of English officials would now be introduced. Such was not the advice of the committee who sat on the affairs of India. Tho first thing to be done to increase the revenue was to rely on native co-operation, and call forth the abilities of native statesmen, many of whom - had rendered us good service in the late rebellion. Another mode of developing the re sources of India was to facilitate titles to land, and so induce European or native capitalists to become holders of land. In every country the land was the source of the wealth of the country, wh erever l an d was at all improved. He knew that the process of dealing with land in India was extremely slow ; let it be improved. Hitherto he had viewed with admiration the steps taken by the noble lord, especially in the matter of the royal proclamation. This was now Priuteci MIT ficll99l- *k ; but the uativers Imo apt to compare acts with words; and one unfortunate step had been taken in the despatch issued on the Ist September—almost the last act of the East India Company. It was doubtless essential to check fraud in the collection of the revenue ; but the commission appointed to inquire into enams would create great dissatisfaction. This had been the case in the province of Bombay, where a commission had been appointed to call on the landlords to prove a title of 90 years. The nicest ques tions arose, which were entrusted not to lawyers, but to mili tary men, whose decisionshad givenunmixed dissatisfaction. It was in evidence before the committee of last year that the enam commission had decided on 8,000 titles, and that 100,000 were still pending before them. - He was surprised to learn that a similar commissionhad been issued for Madras. The object, no doubt, was to inorease the revenue, but it would not have that affect. In Bengal a similar commission had been found so oppressive that it had beenput an endto. .k HON. MEMBER—No, no; its operations were finished. Sir E. PERRY hoped that the Madras commission would not only be suspended but put an end to at once, and that Sir C. Trevelyan would retract the advice he had given the other day in favour of the commission. He would not encourage fraud, but deal with it as in this country. If a man's great grandfather had committed a fraud was he to be put out of possession of his land ? (Hear.) Let them fix a period, 30 or 40 years, beyond whichthe inquiryshould not extend, and then let fraud be treated in the ordinary course. If the steps he suggested were taken he had no fear for the future of India. Recollecting that our trade with India exceeded that with any other country, except the United States and Australia, we might form an idea of its value. The amount of that trade was 30 millions a year. Besides that, India paid three or four millions to this coun try as dividends and salaries. Let us treat the natives of India so as to give them an interest in its institutions, and they would not be found unwilling to aid with their purses the expenses of the State. Reference had been made to the Government irrigation worki effected in Bombay, but in reality they had been done by the municipality of Bombay, where the natives were most liberally treated. The same re sults would follow all over India if the same course were adopted. From the high rank and great popularity of the noble lord he was in a position to carry out greater reforms than any one on that side the house could do—(hear, hear) —because they would be opposed to a great body of the Conservatives. (Hear.) At the same time he hoped the noble lord would not entangle himself too much with " Old Indians," for it was impossible not to see that the new board was the old East India Company over again. Many of the projected reforms would militate most strongly with their views ; but if the noble lord would depend on his own sound. judgment, India, instead of becoming a burden.to this coun try, would be a powerful auxiliary to its prosperity. (Hear.) Mr. LI DDELL said the noble lord had been charged with omitting to propose any means of improving the In dian revenue. This was not correct. On Monday night the noble lord had suggested those means ; and any mea sure relating to taxes must emanate from the Indian go vernment in the first instance. The noble lord had truly said that the revenue of India was elastic ; but he had not, as some supposed, named any amount to which it might be expected to rise. With the prospect of a good and benefi cent government in that country he believed that the peo - ple would have the fullest confidence in the improvement of India. The noble lord looked forward to the restoration of the balance between expenditure and income, and, as one means, referred to the reduction of military expenditure. It must be recollected that India was a conquered country,. and had been held for a century by the force of our arms ; and so long as we had to deal with Mahommedan fanati cism on the one hand and Hincloo ignorance on the other, without any prospect of mitigation, he feared there was little hope of reducing our military expenditure. Besides, our Indian commerce was yearly becoming more an object of attention to European governments on all sides ; and if our army were largely reduced, might not this excite their ambition ? Though a more complete system of police throughout Bengal might lessen the chances of insurrection, it would still be our duty to guard our stations that protection might be afforded on any emergency to our stores and bar racks. Mr. Macpherson, in his annals, pointed to many that were still unimproved—several barracks were overcrowded, and extremely unhealthy. This would prevent any exten sive reduction of the military forces in India. At all events if they were reduced, we must secure greater power of con centrating a large force in any given place. Colonel Ken nedy had well said that two-thirds of an army might thus be rendered more effective in a few days than the whole num ber would be in as many months. In reference to the rail way system, he must, with all submission to the noble lord, challenge his statement, that the progress of the railway system, rested mainly on the Indian government. Having guaranteed no less than two millions of this expenditure, it was requisite that the Home Government should in some way superintend the work. This led to the jealousy of the companies—military engineers being generally employed by the Government. Confidence had been felt that every unnecessary obstruction would be removed, but he feared that the railway officials and the Government engineers were still keeping up their internal struggles. Mr. V. SMITH said that he might have trespassed on the house at greater length than he should do if they had had any results before them. But there was the same ab sence of result as on a former occasion. It was perfectly true that the novelty of the noble lord's position, as the first responsible minister for India, as well as the high posi tion which he had attained at so early an age, from what he had already done, and the promise w hi c h he held out for the future, had combined to impart to this debate greater interest than any former debate on. India had possessed. But what had the noble lord done ? He had entered into a general explanation of the state of the finances of India, but he had held out nothing on which they could positively give an opinion. The speeches had been merely deliberate essays on Indian affairs, which could _lead to nothing. (Hear, hear.) The accounts annually submitted to Parlia ment required some examination, and he would recommend to the noble lord that on a future occasion those accounts should be laid before a committee of the house. With re gard to the elasticity of the revenue, he differed both from the noble lord and from his right hon. friend the member for Halifax (Sir C. Wood), who both seemed to think that there was no prospect of an increase. He thought the land revenue displayed some elasticity, as it had largely increased during the half century, and would be further improved by the reduction of the assessment. There was another ques tion to which he would direct the attention of the noble lord—the diminution of outlay. The noble lord had given two examples to show the impossibility of reducing the ex pense of the civil service, but both were rather inapplicable. The noble lord had spoken of the difficulty of procuring assis tant-surgeons, and said that even the competitive examination did not bring forward candidates,but the pay of the assistant surgeons was not as high as the civil service, and the com petitive examination rather kept men from offering them selves, as, if rejected, they were prevented from obtaining other situations. Again, the noble lord said that the rail ways paid as high salaries as the Company. Lord STANLEY—Relatively as high. Mr. V. SMITH—But the railway employment was not permanent, and there was no promotion. He believed that in no part of the world was there a service so highly paid as the civil service, where a man entered at £3OO or £4OO, with a prospect of rising to £4,000 or £lO,OOO. He admitted the service was highly competent, but other services equally so were not so highly paid. With regard to the military expenditure, he had been surprised to hear from the noble lord that he expected shortly to be able. to reduce the Euro pean force to the number before the mutiny. Lord STANLEY stated that he had not said so. He did not think it would be possible to reduce the European force. (Hear, hear.) He only stated that he hoped to re duce the total of the military force of every description to 'about the same as it was before the mutiny. Mr. V. SMlTH—However desirous they might be to reduce the force, it was absolutely necessary to keep Euro peans, wherever there was a large detachment of natives. It would be long before the confidence in the natives could be restored. But although they retained a large Euro pean force he did not see why the expenditure might not be reduced. If they were to keep 80,000 men in India, they would not long be able to pay them double what was paid to the troops serving in the West Indies and other colonies. He had been surprised and sorry to hear that the number of native troops was now as great as it had been before the mutiny. He would not question the necessity of these levies •, but he hoped they would soon be reduced. He thought the noble lord in proposing the establishment of freehold tenures was perfectly right. (Hear.) He also agreed with him as to the railway guarantee. He believed that the system was erroneous in the first instance, and he had wished that some scheme had been started without a guarantee, but as the system had once been established, he thought the noble lord had done right in following it up, and if railway com panies got guarantees there was no reason why the Madras Irrigation Company should not get it also. He thought, however, the present rate of 5 per cent. was rather high. With regard to railways, he would suggest to the noble lord whether a system ;:if fi heap 'railways could not be est a blished. He thought that % Country where the present rate of travelling was so slow, a cheap line, capable of working 10 miles an hour, would in many districts answer every re quirement. The noble lord had alluded to the question of an imperial guarantee. (Hear.) If raised at all, that question should be settled at once. If there was to be such a guarantee, let them have the benefit of it now ; the noble lord ought to have stated his opinion on this point. The noble lord h a d also neglected to furnish the grounds on which he came to the conclusion that no further loan would be required to be raised here. He however saw no objec tion to the mode in which it was proposed to raise the pre sent loan, and he should therefore vote for the proposal. Mr. VANSITTART, who spoke from his own know ledge, having been a civil officer and magistrate in India, stated that a very large proportion of the land in many of the districts was alienated from the Government by fraudu lent titles, by which the revenue was considerably impaired, and recommended a commission to inquire into all titles since 1801, and a proclamation confirming the validity of all titles 'previous to that date. He suggested that a cheaper rate of agency should be introduced, by the more extensive employ ment of natives in civil capacities, and expressed an opinion that under a wise and conciliatory system of government, the revenues of India would more than pay off the debt in 20 years, and that as tranquillity was re-established, and European capital was introduced, the Asiatic population would see that their best interests would be served by se conding the policy of a powerful and beneficent government. Mr.' CRAWFORD, in reference to the remark of the right hon. member for Northamptonshire about cheap railways in India, observed that in such lines as that from Calcutta to wards the north cheapness was impossible, owing to the nature of the works, there being many very wide rivers to cross and very heavy engineering operations. Again, with regard to witholding the Government guarantee, he was aware that a negotiation had been opened for constructing a railway without the guarantee, but it was not accepted by the market. Until it was proved that the traffic would be re munerative it was not to be expected that the funds for railways in India would be forthcomingin this country. The East India Railway Company, to which he had alluded, had now 280 miles at work, and from the traffic over 243 of those miles it was earning £4,000 a week, or at the rate of 7s 2d. per train per mile, which was about the earnings of the great railways in this country. He mentioned this to show that the railways in India were already beginning to prove that they would in the end be highly remunerative. It was understood that last year the security fund was drawn upon for the payment of the dividends on the East India stock. He should be glad to know from the noble lord the extent to which that fund had been so made available, and whether the provisions of the act had been followed, of devoting the first subsequent receipts from India to the extinction of the debt due to .the security fund. He thought it desirable that some change should be made in the principle on which the exchanges were now regulated, and that instead of an arbi trary and 'varying rate there should be a fixed basis. The present proposition fool raising funds must be looked upon as a necessity. All he wished was that it might not have to be repeated, and that the noble lord would direct his attention to the attainment of the funq necessary for the government of India from Indian resources. Mr. CARDWELL thought it was premature to call upon the Government for an exposition of their mode of adapting the expenditure of India to its income. They had just quelled an extraordinary rebellion, and had not arrived at the time when they could commence those retrenchments by which alone the expenditure could be brought within the in come; and they were departing from those usual maxims of prudence which ordinarily regulated their conduct,if they did not at present make a very rigid examination of the dif ference between the income and the expenditure. If the time had come for such an examination, the prospect, it TAO' kt admitted, Would not ) YVY good — fQX they w"9 told that the balance was considerably on the wrong side, even excluding thQ extraordinary expenditure of the war. And even when the rebellion was over the charge would not, for some time, be brought down to the point at which it stood ere the outbreak commenced. We did not in India possess two modes of obtaining revenue, which we had at home—the excise and the customs. We could not make the excise severe, owing to the probability of the exactions and cruelty which might arise from its collection, and in our desire to encourage trade with India we were unwil ling to saddle it with import duties. There were reasons why, even in expenditure on public works, wo should use prudence and - circumspection. Allusion had been made by his right hon. friend the member for Northampton to the system of railways in India, but he could not agree with his right hon. friend that you should make the great lines which traversed the country, and on which you mainly de pended for the conveyance of troops in a cheap, and there fore in an inefficient _manner. (Hear, hear.) When on a line of railway great political and social interests depended, the amount of expenditure upon it should not be a conside ration of much moment, and when it was said that railways in India could be constructed at the rate of £12,000 a mile he did not think we could charge ourselves with much ex travagance. He wished to suggest to the noble lord that the day was nearly come when there must be an alteration of the system of guarantees out of Government capital, and he hoped that the system of guarantees was nearly at an end. He knew of no case of guarantee to a company in which you could not have as good an argument for the con structing of works with Government men and money. He looked at the question of guarantees with some anxiety, because such guarantees ought not to creep into the exchequer at home, any more than into that of India. He hoped that the construction of the branch lines of railway communicating with the main lines in India would be created out of the wealth of that country, and so have a tendency to create a native in terest in such works. But the most interesting point in this discussion had been raised by an " obiter dictum" of the noble lord the other night, which should not be passed over. In law•there was no more frequent cause of mistakes and confusion than the " obiter dictum" of great judges. The dictum of the noble lord had nothing to do with the present loan, because the noble lord did not propose to ask for an imperial guarantee ; but the noble lord let fall an ex pression which had excited a considerable feeling out of doors, and which rendered it necessary that the house should not depart from the strong ground which had been established in this matter. In the India Bill of the Govern ment of last year a clause was introduced for the purpose of settling all controversy on this point, by declaring that the India debt was to be a burden on the Indian Exchequer alone. He hoped that w.e were not going to set loose a doc trine whieh we thought had been set fast. The hon. Mem ber for Devonport said that a-native might bring an action against the noble lord the Secretary for India , but in all actions the right depended on the contract which was en tered into, and here the contract was that the payment of the debt should be made out of the Indian, and not out of the imperial exchequer. What, too, was the rate of interest in India? It varied from 4i to 6 per cent., and were we going-to give this interest with an imperia guarantee in the back ground ? He could conceive arguments in favour of the policy of the hon. member for Devonport, and that which was shadowed forth in the speech of his right hon. friend the member for Northampton, that is, that we should take the benefit of the debt at once, and do something to wards balancing the revenue and expenditure of India ; and more valid arguments might be adduced for allow ing India to borrow money on her own security, but for one thing there could be brought forward no argu ment, and that was borrowing money in England at the rate of Indian interest. The Government of India was not subject to the control of that house, as regarded loans raised. in India. Were they going to allow India to bor row without the sanction of Parliament, and then let the taxpayer at home bear the burden? He appealed to the statute of last year, in which the doctrine was laid down that Indian revenues alone should guarantee loans, and he hoped that that doctrine would never be departed from. He thought that we ought not- to take a gloomy view of the finances of India. Looking to what had been done in that country, and how great had been the development of its resources and its trade with'this country, he could not but expect a still greater development of its wealth and industry. When they were debating a proposition in the second year for providing finances to meet the expenses of a great rebellion, when last year they only raised a loan of ten millions, and this year the noble lord asked for a loan of only seven millions, and said that he did not anticipate his coming to the house for such a purpose on another oc casion, when they considered the crisis through which India had passed, and that the whole amount of the financial appeal to this country had been under 18 millions, he could not but think that it was a matter of thankfulness. The moral spectacle we had exhibited, and the prowess we had shown in India, had had a great effect in Europe in raising our character, and he believed that a very salutary effect would be produced when it was found that so great were our pecuniary resources, that all that had been done had been effected out of the revenues of India itself, with a resort to the English money market only for so small an amount. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said . it was proposed to raise a loan of seven millions for India in this country. When a loan was raised for home purposes, it was guarded by cer tain precautions and checks—why should not the same pre cautions be taken in the present instance? It was a dangerous system of finance to raise a large sum to be spent in a distant dependency with no control exercised over it. He would suggest to the noble lord whether in the bill which we were about to pass he ought not to introduce a special clause of appropriation, declaring the special pur pose to which the loan was to be applied. Mr. LOWE regretted that the statement of the noble lord did not enable the house to gather any notion of the mode in which he proposed to extricate himself from the difficulties in which he was placed. The noble lord said that he did not see his way to any increase of revenue, or any decrease of expenditure, and the consequence was that there must be a perpetual deficit, which was to be measured by the interest of the loans. They had a right to expect from the noble lord some measure which showed a tendency to remove the existing difficulty. The noble lord said that the land revenue was elastic, and he spoke of the salt tax, but he suggested no actual means of adding to the revenue. This was the state of things which the noble lord admitted, and by that he bound himself to propose a remedy. He was sorry to see that the only measure which the noble lord had taken was to call on the Government in India to do that which he (Mr. Lowe) said ought to be done by the Govern ment of India in England—for he had called on Lord Canning to devise a tax which would balance income and revenue. It was hard on Lord Canning, engaged as he was in quelling a rebellion ; and of what use were the gentlemen in Leadenhall-street when it was necessary to call on Lord Canning to go into so large a question, and in fact to take that course was to postpone the matter sine die. The noble lord expected a trifling decrease in the civil expenditure. His right hon. friend the member for Halifax had disposed of that, showing that as the improvement of the country increased, the standard of wants and comforts would en large, and you must look for a gradual increase in the civil expenditure of India, as was the case in this country when the standard of human wants was raised. He had only one other thing to say, and that was that when the com mittee of 1853 bad finished its sittings, it was its opinion that the suddar and supreme courts should be anialga 'mated. A commission was appointed to see what could be done, and they received instructions from the Board of Control to take all the necessary preliminary measures for amalgamation. The commission laboured for three years according to these instructions, and, as they believed, com pleted an efficient code. They expected it would be adopted, but it was sent to India, and referred to that anomalous body the Legislative Connell. The council persisted in pre serving many of the defects of -the old system, and in par ticular left the suddar and supreme courts untouched, con fining their alterations wholly to the mofussil courts. If this were not remedied, the natives would believe that the Queen intended one sort of justice for the English and another for the native subjects of India. He trusted that the noble lord would not allow this system to go on, but would rather, suspend all change until he had more fully examined the subject. It might be said that all this was foreign to the financial question, but the fact was that the great cause of all our troubles in India was the imperfection of the judicial system: (Hear, hear.) There was now a great opportunity of reform, and he earnestly entreated the noble lord to take the matter into his consideration. Lord STANLEY said that a great variety of subjects had been touched upon, , but he should take the liberty of con fining himself to the main question. He would say, how ever, that he quite concurred with the hon. member for Kidderminster as to the importance of the revision of the suddar and supreme courts, and had sent out instructions to stay all changes until further consideration had taken place. With respect to the civil expenditure, he feared there would not be much reduction under that head. Some thing had also been said respecting railway guarantees, but he submitted it was now rather late to discuss that question. We had guaranteed forty millions ,and must take the con sequences. Guarantee, however was better than if Govern ment undertook the work, as in the one case they had only to guarantee the interest, while, in the other, they would have to supply the capital for the work. With respect to the Indian debt he thought that nothing had been more clearly stated by him on a former occasion than that the change of government had not at all increased the imperial responsibility. The debt of India was a fair charge on In dian revenue, and when he said that England had a contin gent interest in its security, he meant that if the Indian re venue should ever fail in paying the interest and expenses of civil administration, the question would then arise as to what was to be done, and in that way he contendedthat this country had a contingent interest in the financial condition of India. (Hear.) In conclusion, the noble lord thanked the house for the unanimous wish which had been shown. to assist the government in settling thisimportant question. Mr. KINNAIRD said he was glad the government of India had not shrunk from the responsibility of giving gua rantees for the railways and other useful investments of capital, without which those undertakings would not have been introduced ; and the advantages of parliamentary con trol having been secured for India, he trusted that the in terests of that great country would be promoted by its future administration. Col. SYKES regretted that some hon. gentlemen had shown themselves disposed to take so gloomy a view of the prospects of India, to refute which he reverted to a com parison of the revenue and expenditure of India in the year 1809 with the financial statements of recent years, showing that, after 50 years had elapsed, the debt, relative to the income of India, was less in proportion than it was at the commencement of that period ; being 18 per cent. at the former date, and only 10 per cent. in 1850-1. The increase of prosperity was also proved by, the imports and exports, which showed a no t a bl e augmentation. The resolution was then passed nem. con., and the house having reamed the chairman reported progress. OCCASIONAL FORMS OF PRAYER. The Occasional Forms of Prayer Bill, on the motion of Mr. IVALPoLE, was read a third time and passed. The Law of Property and Trustees Amendment Bill was brought from the Rouse of Lords and read a first time. - CIVIL SERVICE SUPERANNUATION. , The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the second reading of this bill. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY complained that the recommen dations of the committee had not been attended to in re spect of this bill, and urged also that the report of the Royal Commission was entitled to more respect. He wished to know what would be the additional cost of the system now proposed to be adopted? The witnesses examined before the committee repudiated the notion that when they called for the abolition of this tax, they were intending to get an increase of salary. He thought the form of this bill was likewise objectionable, as to repeal some clauses of a former statute and leave others standing, was a bit by bit sort of legisla tion, the effect of which was embarrassing. Sir S. NORTHCOTE said it was the intention of the Government to go into committee pro forma, on Monday, with this bill, in order that it might be reprinted with some amendments, which would render it more clear, and to some extent meet the views of the hon. gentleman. The object was to put all classes of the civil service upon an uniform footing, and put an end to those anomalies which had so long existed in the system of superannuation. With regard to the additional expense thrown on the country, the Government had not considered either the recommendations of the select committee or those of the commission, but the decision of that house, which was to. Tut an end to that system which had hitherto prevailed, and lie thought it was wisp decision, 'his matter WARM not be looked at AN a pounds, shillings, and pence; the object e re su u p es e t r annuatten system was to get good men mere narrow of in the civil service at a moderate price, to keep them as long as was desirable, and pa wide for their retiring from the service when they ohou: td cease to be efficient. It was necessary to have a clear, efficient, and uniform system. It was most desirable that an niform system should be adopted. It was no less desirable ihs t some power should be given to the Treasury to determiml whether certain classes ought or ought not to receive allowil. 'ices. Thus country postmas ters, who were not wholly et. nployed by Government, were a class, some of the individutlis of which were entitled to superannuation and others wet e not. In many other cases of the like nature it was :d .esirable that the hands of the Treasury should be strengthened. He trusted that the bill would be read a second time, and that any discussion would be taken in committi Mr. DEASY pointed out that the 4th clause, extending this bill to judicial offices, was one which ought to be amended. As it stood, it was not clear whether county court judges in England and Ireland were included in this clause. Mr. WHITESIDE thought that the principle of the bill ought to be applied to the cases mentioned by the hon. and learned member, and ,as he Understood the bill it did apply to them. Mr. J. D. FITZGER AID said' that the effect of the clause would be to put .it :in the power of the Treasury to require any county court ft idge to resign who was sixty five years old. This ,was a most 'objectionable provision, and would tend to tamfer th the purity of justice. Sir W. CODRING ON' ished to know whether the . bill was retrospective or not, Mr. GROGAN said that the question to which the gal lant member alluded was a most in.'Portant one. He wished to put a further question, which will, whether the bill ap plied to supernumeraries ? Mr. DOBBS pointed out that by ,the 13th seotion the limitation of 65 years, id not apply to those persons who held office 4 , during good behTnour." ;it therefore did not apply to county court judges., • • • The bill was then read a second time. • • SALE OF POISONS BILL. Mr. KINNAIRD asked that this bill might` be postponed. He had not had time to hear from the north 02. , the subject. Mr. WALPOLE proposed to put the bill th rough com mittee on this day week; or even at a later period if hon. members desired it. He therefore trusted that the house would now read it a second time. (Hear, hear.) Mr. HUNT thought the bill ought to specify the names of all the persons to which it applied. The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday week. MANOR COURTS, &c. (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion of Mr. WHITESIDE, this bill was read a second time. SALE OF OILAIN, Scc.. BILL. Mr. M'CANN obtained leave to bring in a bill for the sale of grain, meal, flour, butter, and potatoes, and other agri cultural produce, by the pound avoirdupois, the score of 20 lbs., the hundredweight of .1001bs. , and the ton of 2,000 lbs. . . - MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS BILL. 'Mr. WALPOLE obtained leave to bring - in a bill to amend the Medical Practitioners Act (21 and 22 "Vie. e. 90). BURIAL ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. HARDY obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend the 23d section of the act 20 and 21 Vic., c. 81, relating tea burials. LUNATICS BILL. Mr. WALPOLE obtained leave to bring in two bills for amending the laws relating to lunatics in county and pri vate asylums. These five bills were severally brought in and read a first time. The house adjourned at 20 minutes before one. COUNTRY MARKETS; LIVERPOOL-FEB. 18. At the market this morning there was a fair attendance of buyers, but the business passing was limited, and no fur ther quotable alteration occurred in the value of either wheat or flour. The demand for Indian corn was quite in retail, at about previous rates. Oats and oatmeal firm. Egyptian beans are held for a trifling advance. Peas and barley without change. The market ruled dull throughout but holders showed no anxiety to force sales. WAKEFIELD-FEB. 18. A fair arrival of wheat, but most of it in poor condition, at last week's prices. Fine barley in fair request at late prices. Beans fully as dear. In oats and shelling there is little change to note. The following are the quotations :-- -Wheat, per qr. of 8 bushels 601 b., Essex, Suffolk, and Kent, white, old, 46s to 495; new, 46s to 495; ditto, red, old, 40s to 43s ; new, 40s to 42s ; Lincolnshire and York shire white, new, 40s to 45s ; red, 37s to 39. Foreign bar ley more plentiful and cheaper. Averages for the week : Wheat 4,083 qrs., at 41s 11p. 8ar1ey.........1,878 „ 355 9d Oats l9 „ 2ls 6 1 d Rye — :, —s Od Beans 69 „ 4ss 6td Peas E-XETE -FEB. 18: An average attendance. Many of the samples were in better condition, and no improvement in prices. Wheat, white.. 5s Od to 5s 2d I Barley.. 4s Od to 4s 3d Ditto red 4s' 9d to 5s Od Oats 2s 8d to 2s 9d Flour, fine, 28s to 29s ; seconds, 27s to 28s per sack. CATTLE—The market was poorly supplied with stock, The attendance of farmers small. Pork carcases a largo supply. Fat beef,p score,9s6d to 10s6d Ewes, per lb .... 6d to Od Pork carcases, do 7sod to 8s 3d Wethers, d 0...... 61d to Od Lambs, per lb .. Od to Od rat calves, d0...61d to 7d Rough fat, 4d per lb. BRISTOL SUGAR-FEB. 18. The market was quiet, but importers were firm ; indeed, had they shown any disposition to recede a little from their present requirements, a fair amount of business would pro bably have been done in raw sugars. Refined goods expe rience a moderate sale at the late currencies. The sales of rum have been confined to a few puncheons and hhds. to supply immediate wants. [ADVERTISEMENT.]—ThorIey's Food for Cattle is noW beginning to seriously attract the attention of the farmer, breeder, and feeder of stock. Two years of. unremitting care and attention have enabled its inventor, to take high ground as a benefactor to these interests ; and notwithstand ing the many drawbacks, the malevolent shafts hurled against it and its probable utility, the food, from its admitted value, will become a necessity to the agricultural interest. Experience has proved, first, that it - affects a considerable saving in the consumption of provender.; secondly, that,it produces health and vigour in all animals subjected to its influence : and lastly, increases in a remarkable degree a l, early development of fat. Mr. Thorley, originating this singularly efficacious food, aimed at a compound calculated to supersede, to a certain extent, the tedious and expensive mode then prevailing of fattening stall-fed beasts. In this he happily succeeded ; and success prompted a very natural desire to improve upon the invention, so as to make it ap plicable to every description of domestic animal. The Eng.- lish farmer was slow to encourage its use, and manifested an unwillingness to rely.iipon its efficacy,, fancying he possessed in the produce of his farm, ample materials whereby to feed and fatten his cattle at a cheaper rate than by the employment or addition of artificial food. The tests to which this food has been subjected have proved its perfect admissibility as a cheap addition to the natural produce of the Tarni ; inasmuch as in all cases'a subtraction of one-third may be safely submitted to in the usual food of animals; - and that the produce will be realised, and rendered marketable in two-thirds of the time usually consumed in' developing fat ;- it, therefore, become , ' apparent that a certain - saving is effected by a fair application of Thorley's Compounded Food: It is believed that the present unprecedented low price of wheat has induced its very gene ral use, in preference . to any other of the usual articles of food; it is, however, nruch questioned whether wheat is a nourishing and proper food• for the working horse, certainly it is not for cows or pigs. Mr: Thorley's Food, besides possessing the advantage of great* invigorating the health and increasing the physical power of all animals, is a tonic and gentle stimulant, l and when mixed with their other food,.materially assists their digestive powers—a matter of groat consequence, since it is an undoubted fact that the nourishment contained in their ordinary food is lost, conse quent upon the impaired or-defective-action of the digestive organs ; it will also be found to be particularly beneficial in restoring to good working condition horses which have been over-worked, or become weak from disease, or are naturally of a feeble constitution. In cows its effects are undoubted, indeed almost- marvellous, nearly doubling the yield of milk and butter, whilst it at the same time enriches the quality of both. In pigs its fattening qualities are still more remarkable, displaying in a few weeks its manifest superiority over every other kind of compound or manu factured food adopted in the feeding of swine. Such has been its marked success, that at all our great cattle shows, Royalty, noblemen, and others who have fed their cattle on Thorley's Food, have invariably carried off the principal prizes, whilst cards of commendation have been awarded. The patronage of Royalty, of our principal nobility, the clergy, and of our leading agriculturists, must prove a great incitement to this gentleman to pursue his onward course; and he may confidently rely, in producing so highly-favoured a compound, on a continuation of such high and distinguished patronage. BIRTHS. FEILDEN.—On the 17th inst., at Witten-park, the wife of Lieut.-Col. Feilden, late 44th Regt., of a son. GALE.—On the 17th inst., at 33, Burton-street, Eaton square, Mrs. Frederick Gale, of a daughter. THURSBY. —On the 17th inst., at 31, Gloucester-street, South Belgravia, the wife of R. H. Thursby, Esq., Cold• stream Guards, of a daughter. WINDUS.—On the 18th inst., at Stamford-hill, the wife of Eric Windus, Esq., of a daughter. MARRIAGES BAILNARD—MILLETT. — On the 17th inst., at St. George's, Hanover-square, Major Barnard, Grenadier Guards, the eldest son of the late Major-General Sir Henry Barnard, K.C.8., to Caroline Harriet, daughter of Chas. Millett, Esq. RELY—CnuncH.—On the 17th inst., at St. Barnabas, Ho merton, Middlesex, Hovenden Hely, Esq., J. P., F. R. G. S., of Wyoming, county of Northumberland, N.S.W., to Gertrude Mary, the fifth daughter of Mr. J. S. Church, Brewery, Homerton. DEATHS. BARCLA.Y.—On the 16th inst., at her residence, 13, Brock street, Bath; Harriet Alicia, relict of Sir Robert Barclay, Bart., aged 96. COLLIER.—On the 11th inst., at Stoke, suddenly, Captain Edward Collier, R.N. DELAMERF.—On the 17th inst., at 29, Portman square, the Lady D e l amere , th e secon d d aug ht er o f th e E ar l an d Countess of Kinnoul, aged 31. DUFF.--On the 9th inst., at Rome, Emily Dora H. Duff, eldest daughter of the late Huntly Duff, Esq., of Muir town Inverness, aged 10 years. GROVE.—On the 16th inst., at Mudeford, Hants, John, the youngest son of the late John Grove, Esq., of Ferne, Wilts, aged 36. HoAR.E.—On the 16th inst., at Torquay, Henry J. Hoare, Esq., of Morden, Surrey, aged 46. SMITH.—On the 16th inst., the Rev. John Smith, rector of Acton, Middlesex, aged 65. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county of iddlesex, Saturday, February 19, 1859, th e *b e tou t fats able Does t ee , bir( tielv tec e lati art li t eta ter Ch a Joh dap Cap