The Sun. — London, England, 1859-07-06 00:00:00

mate personal defence against attacks which he thought had been made by myself and by two of my colleagues in the present Government. But I cannot say that the same line of conduct has been pursued by all the members of the late Administration. One noble earl, who for some time which held the office of President of theßoard of Control, told us, with that strength of language stereotypes every thought that comes from his lips, that he believed with the certainty of prophecy that an attempt at invasion would be made. (Cheers from the Opposition.) I feel reluctant, my lord, to continue the contemplation of such an event— ) --and it is some comfort to me to reflect that pros pheey when uninspired-is one of the most fallacious guides i n the political conduct of the world. Another noble earl, who held one of the highest offices in the late Government, observed, during the last year, a singular silence upon pub lic affairs, but the very moment he got free frdm the reins, like the postboy of Cowper, he galloped about without thinking what mischief he might inflict, or where he might place his foot. (A laugh.) I do think that when that noble lord, in defiance of all international law, and in defiance of the feelings of a great maritime Power, our neighbour, declared what his ideas were of the limits of the British shore, he ought to have recollected that such re marks were but ill fitted to preserve the peaceful character of our foreign relations- (Hear, hear.) And now, my lords, we have this evening been addressed upon the same subject with greater weight, greater moderation, and greater tem per. But lam not sure that the noble and learned lord opposite has been judicious in all he has said. If a feeling of hostility does exist, as he says it does—not on the part of the Emperor Napoleon, bat on the part of the French people—l am not certain that his speech will tend to allay it. When he points out in the most marked way the de fenceless character of our shores, —when at the same time he boasts of our former victories, —and when he makes something like insinuating and sneering allusions both to the Government and the people of France, —I am afraid that coming from such lips as his, such language is not cal culated to maintain a friendly feeling between the two coun tries. (Hear.) When you consider how mush irritated a majority of the public and of Parliament were last year by the foolish expressions of a few foolish French colonels, isolated in their garrison towns, and smarting under an attempted assassination of their Emperor and commander, you willhe able to estimate the effect which such language as we have heard to-night is likely to produce upon a people so sensitive as the French. (Hear, hear.) Again, my lords, I have to ask myself whether such speeches are ne cessary to stimulate our countrymen at home. I believe they are not. It is impossible to read the languag e o f the public press, or the speeches made at public meeting's, or to seethe points upon which even theologians think the election of a member for Oxford University ought to tarn—(a laugh) —without being aware of the readinesswith which the people areprepared to make pecuniary sacr ifices in order to preserve the inviolability of our shores, and maintain the national honour. (Hear, hear.) A proper feeling in that respect already exists, and the only fear is that it may be excited beyond its legitimate work. The noble and learned lord has talked of invasion, but that I believe is at the present mo ment out of thequestion. While we are on the best possible t en nis with the 'United States, while Russia is notoriously not prepared for war, and while France is engaged in a bloody and costly contest in Italy, we are certainly not in danger of an invasion. But what we all feel is, that it would be absolute folly for a great and rich countr y like England not to take those permanent precautions which at all times will relieve us, not only from invasion itself, but from the very alarm of invasion, so injurious as it might be to our commerce. (Hear.) Political experience teaches us that if we excite a feeling to an unnatural degree it will be followed by a reaction, and the probability is that if the people are too much agitated now they may at some future time be seized with a fit of economy which will prevent the Govern ment of the day from continuing those permanent means of defence which are absolutely necessary for the protection of the country. (Hear.) I now come to the conduct of her Ma jesty's Government, and to the question whether it is neces sary to stimulate them with regard to this most important subject. My noble friend (the Duke of Somerset) has had occasion to make in this house explicit declarations upon this subject, and I am glad to have the opportunity of re peating that those declarations are not mere expressions of individual opinions, but the authorised statement of the views of the whole of the Cabinet intrusted with the Govern ment of the country. I know nothing in the character of Lord Palmerston, the head of the Government, which should excite alarm in this respect. I believe that all who have seen anything of that noble lord know that for years there has been no man, except perhaps the late Duke of Wellington, who, both in private and in public, has more anxiously pressed the importance of maintaining our defences in a pro per state of preparation than he has done. (Hear.) Some doubt may have been created by what fell from the noble and learned lord with regard to the state of the navy at the be ginning of last year, which was cheered by the noble earl opposite (the Earl of Hardwicke), and which must have been founded upon a statement made by the noble earl him self the other day, that at that time the navy was in a state of " weakness, impotence, and decrepitude.' ;("Hear " from Lord Hardwicke.) The noble lord cheers, but I really ven ture to ask him how he reconciles that cheer with the state•• ment made by the head of the department concerned last year ? (Hear.) Ido not wish to trespass upon your lord ships' attention, but perhaps I may be allowed to give you a very short sketch of what has occurred with regard to the navy. (Hear.) The noble and learned lord referred to the great difference in the comparison between the forces of France and England which resulted from the application of steam to navigation. No sane person can doubt that whereas it had formerly been impossible for the French nation to equal us in sailing vessels, as soon as steam was introduced the terms became equal and the race equal to both countries. In the year 18.52, however, we were supe rior to the French in steam vessels by, I think, 52 ships. During the war we maintained our superiority both in the Baltic and in the Black Sea. At that time I think 284 ships besides 107 mortar vessels, were added to the navy. In 1858 we had 16 ships in excess of the number possessed by the French, and although it might be true that we were deficient in frigates, we had 224 small steam vessels more than they had. At the cessation of the war 4he country required, and to a certain extent reasonably required, a re duction of our forces. The Government did not entirely comply with those requisitions. They reduced the navy, but instead of returning to its condition previous to the war, they went back to the standard of % the first year of pre parations for war, which exceeded the peace establishment by about 1,000 men, and in the shipbuilding department by about 50 per cent. Last year a cry arose in the coun try, which was most eloquently enforced by Mr. Disraeli in Parliament, that not only our civil but also our military and naval expenditure must be reduced in proportion to the reduction of our taxation. The charges which were made against the then head of the Admiralty (Sir C. Wood) were that he was spending too much money and building too large ships. Her Majesty's late Government acceded to power, and ten days afterwards Sir J. Faxing • ton went down to the House of Commons and said that the navy estimates of the preceding Government were so large that the Ministry could not take the responsibility of pro posing them to Parliament without due and mature delibe ration. (Hear.) They took one month to consider the matter, and then Sir J. Pakington in his place in Parlia ment proposed reductions under three not unimportant heads—the wages in the dockyards, the purchase of steam engines for ships, and the extension of Keyham yard ; and he defended these reductions on the ground that the Go vernment after ample inquiry and careful deliberation had come to the conclusion that those reductions could be made without in the slightest degree impairing the efficiency of the navy. (Hear, hear.) Sir C. Wood remonstrated with him, and in reply to his remonstrances Sir J. Pakington proved or endeavoured to prove that Sir C. Wood's calcu lations were erroneous, that there was a greater difference between the French and English fleets than he supposed, and that with regard to weight and number of guns espe cially, the latter was greatly superior. His whole argu ment was to show that Sir C. Wood was wrong in propos ing such large estimates, while the Government was quite right in reducing them. (Hear, hear.) Later important intelligence was received by the Government as to great ac tivity in the French dockyards. I believe that this great ac tivity commenced after the change of Government took p l a ce ; but whether that was so or not, it certainly afforded a sufficient stimulus for exertion on our side. Well, but her Majesty's late Government did not then either propose large additional e stimates to the House of Commons, nor did they on their own responsibility spend large sums of - money for the expenditure of which they might subse quently be indemnified. What they did was this. They diverted workmen from the establishment for repairs to the conversion of ships, which otherwise could not have been effected. They converted four ships—that may have been r ight, but at the same time they sacrificed an: amount of money which might have been usefully employed in other repairs, and they energetically pressed the completion of eight ships of the line, whic h were almost ready to be launched when the previous Government re tired. lam real / afraid of wearying y our lordships aith. these details, and do no t r efer to them with the sli g htest intention of throwing blame u pon the late Govern ment. On the contrary, I am rea d of this year they have shyowato admit that from the beginning activity in increasing the the most laudabl e energy and navy to the greatest possible ex tent. Within a recent period they have large, u have prepared additional e s timates. Those estimates ar e them to be strictly necessary, and when I believe th e ir discussion in another place it the time comes f or will be found that there is any difference, it is that the noble duke near me (the Duke of Somerset) has in some c fur ther than her Majesty's late Goven r m es looked a little It is not necessary for me to enter intoe defence hear.) army. The noble earl opposite (the Earl o e f fe D nc e e rb o y f ) th stated tce Nv when lider_ re peated the other day what he so handsomel y he took office—viz , that he was surprised a.t fully efficient army which he found in this quite admit that the army which we now possess'istinunot7l;.rgie enough to meet any great force coming suddenly and I think it is clearly the duty of the Goverint o n li t us o ' direct its attention to these questions of the army, and to defending our arsenals so as, if possible, to make them ilia,. pregnable, to consider most carefully those applications of practical science which have already produced weapons of so deadly a character, and, moreover, to consider the very important point of the means of defence against such mur derous weapons when directed-against ourselves. To these must be added the question of the embodied militia, the ex perience of which has, I believe, been most satisfactory to the country, and of other systems. I do not know a nything that would be more likely to be valuable as a means of defence than the formation of volunteer corps of ar tillery, while I believe that rifle corps will also afford con siderable assistance. It will also be the duty of the Govern ment to consider how far they can encourage the nape forion of a reserve. I beg, however, to state explicitly that r son in this house is more convinced of the nec t essity . of put . ting our national defences proper rd han is every member of her Majesty 's Governmen t. There is no desire on our part to conceal our preparations from foreign nations. We have no reason to be reluctant to expl ain to them that, Europe however much we may d e p lore that a should be arming, yet when all Europe does arm, we canno t be left entirely behindhand in the race, a nd that we require to be placed in such a p os ition as shall give us the influence which we ought to have in the councils of Europe when the proper opportunity comes for restorin g peace, and shall enable us to ensure the conditions most favourable to the happinesS and interests of all who are concerned. But while Ave are eng aged in this diffic u lt, this respons ible, and this all impor tant task, while you allow us to retain our seats on this bench ! I think we ma y have confidence to ask and our gr dships to give us your support and y o ur assistance, a io !: in any way to embarrass nit —a result which cannot be 3 cuTed if on every occasion of our meeting we all rush -ti sraultuously into the consideration and discussion of ques ..e ions of the most delicate character. (Ch eers.) The Earl of HARDWICKE had listened with great ,ensure to the speech of his noble and learned friend, which he concurred with the noble lord opposite (Lord Stratford de Redcliffe) in thinking both patriotic and use ful. It offered to the public a calm and temperate state ment of the condition in which this country might be placed under circumstances which we had a right, not, he trusted, to anticipate as rapidly approaching, but, at least, to contemplate as possible. There was nothing improper in a member of their lordships' house calling the attention of the country to its defensive condition at a time like the :present, and the noble and learned lord had treated the question simply in that light. But the noble lord opposite, instead of treating the question in that patriotic spirit which might have been antici narrowed it to a mere party que stion gated from him, had as to w h e ther a ship more or less had been built by this or that Gove rnm ent. He seemed to think that he himself was assailed for something which he had never done, whereas the noble and le arned lord had not meant to throw the slightest reflection on any Gov (Lo ernment. (Hear, hear.) Ac cording to the noble earl, he rd Hardwicke) was one of those gentlemen who, when the dragohain of office was taken off, galloped to all sorts of conclusions ; but the sooner the noble earl and his colleagues galloped to the conclusion that the low water mark of the French shore was the natural line of defence of this country the better for all parties. What he meant when he laid that down the other night was that we ought to be in a position to blockade the French porta, to shut ] up . their fleets or else to compel them to accept battle on their own coast instead of on ours. He had certainly never been so foolish as to say that the British Channel was the property of the British people. (Hear.) If England were to turn an aggresive nation, the mode of keeping her within bounds the French naval officers would recommend would be to make the British Channel, so called, a French channel, and to blockade the English fleets in their own ports. It was to the importance of putting our navy in such a position that at the commencement of a war we might be able to shut up an enemy's fleet that the noble and learned lord had particularly addressed hlroself. It would be too late to begin to build ships and prepare arma ments when the war began ; if we meant to defend the country we must begin to arm now. (Hear.) As to. the party question, it was perfectly true, that in Sir C. Wood's time we had a considerable superiority in numbers of steam vessels over the French, but how was the superiority made ded line-of -battle -ships, we were weaker up ? In gunboats of which the French . had 28 and we 160. (Hear). As regar than France by two or three, and very considerably weaker in the matter of frigates. (Hear.) No doubt, Sir John Pakington did offer to reduce, or did actually reduce thenaval estimates of his predecessor by a certain amount. Of the official nothing, aton. on which he based that reduction he knew but as soon as h the attention of Government be came directed to the condition of the navy they at once set to work to improve it. The manner in which the navy had been managed by the Whig Government was this. A core fain amount of money was taken from Parliament for the construction of ships ; but were those ships constructed ? Not at all. Suppose money was taken for three ships —or, in architectural language, for 24-Bths--only 3-Bths, or 4- Bths, or 5-Bths would be built, and the rest of the money was devoted to other purposes in the yard. A high autho rity had stated that for many years the programme had never been followed out; so that while the public believed that the navy was going on in the ratio of votes granted, the money was spent on other purposes, The late Govern ment determined to produce the most they could for the money, and instead of frittering it away on repairing and altering ships which would never bed f the ste a m they set themselves to increasing the strengtof the steam navy. This year they came to Parliament for money to strengthen it still further, so that at the close of this year we should have 50 line-of -battleships, and 56 or 58 at the close of 1861. During the late recess the Gove rnment, on their own re nsibility, had offered a bounty to induce seamen to enter the navy, and altogether they had left the whole of this naval question on such a footing that, if the noble duke op posite, now the head of the Admiralty, followed up the mea sures of his predecessors, this country might depend on hav ing a powerful navy forthcoming whenever an emergency arose. We ought to raise our fleet to 100 sail of the line and not grudge the cost. We might depend upon it that although that force would not be needed, yet by doing so we should be laying out our money in the very best possible manner. We should thereby strengthen our alliances— (hear) —and empower our Foreign Secretary to speak in a tone such as he could not at present use when addressing foreign Powers. (Hear.) We should thereby render our commerce se nced cure wherever the British flag floated. He was firmly convi that the man who ruled the French nation would rejoice at a considerable augmentation of our naval strength, because it would furnish him with a powerful argument against such of his subjects as desired an invasion of this country by France. He believed that that ruler would much rather quiet than stimulate that desire of invasion, and would be glad to see the maritime power of this coun try raised to a considerable pitch, that the question might not be pressed upon him as to whether he should make war upon England or not. (Hear, hear.) The Duke of SOMERSET regretted that a question of such grave importance as that of the naval defences of this country had been treated as it had been by the noble and learned lord. (Hear.) In the observations which he him self made the other evening upon this subject he carefully abstained from saying anything to irritate the feelings of any other nation. He had nothing to do with that Govern ment which had been charged with neglecting the state of our naval establishment ; bat he must say that he was rather surprised that the Conservative Government, which took so much credit for having increased our naval force, should have been so long in office * before they undertook to remedy the defective state of the navy, even after they were informed, not indeed of the superiority, but of the growing increase of the French navy. That information reached them, according to the records of the Admiralty, in July, 1858. Why did they not at once submit to Parliament in creased estimates for the navy ? But nothing of that kind was done. On the contrary, the works in the dockyards were reduced. But he admitted that at last the late Go vernment did come to Parliament and state the growing increase of the French navy, and that they vigorously set to work to improve the state of our own navy. He greatly r egretted the exciting language which their lordshi p s had just heard. If such language were persevered in it would be necessary to have not only a peace but a war establish ment. (Ministerial cheers.) There was no peace whatever in the language of the noble and learned lord. All he said was for war. (Hear, hear.) That language was calculated to excite the passions of England and France. The noble and learned lord might have given the Government very useful information, and shown them that it was their duty to increase the fortifications of this country, but instead of doing so he had used exciting languagewhichwould be spread throughout the country, and which, as it came from a man of so much eminence, and from a man who had recently taken so distinguished a part in foreign policy, would have a very bad effect. He well remem bered the strong language which the noble and learned lord used not long ago when pleading the cause of Italy. His sympathies were then with Italy, but they were now utterly gone, and nothing remained but his anger with France. During the short time that he (the Duke of Somerset) had been in office he had done everything in his power to increase the power of this country by sea. He had thought it his b een b continue works in the dockyards which had, indeed, been begun by the late Government, but which would have been discontinued had they remained in office, and he had thereby prevented the dismissal of about 3,000 men in the dockyards next autumn. He hoped the people of this country would net be induced by exciting language to de mand armaments on a war scale, for the putting of arma ments on that scale led to war. He thought it was our duty to steadily increase our armaments, but heNvould not adopt the language of the noble and learned lord, who said that we must at once prepare for defence in every quarter of the globe where the English flag floated. (Hear, ll hear.) sides of Lord BROUGHAM said t he y were agreed on a the house, without. any one exception, on the expediency, nay, he would say the necessity, of defensive preparations — (hear, hear)—and that without any invidiousness towards either foreign nations or their rulers, but simply on account of the posture of affairs in Europe, which was swarming with great armies under the control of a veryfew individuals of absolute and unlimited power. We were bound to prepare for our own defence, happen what might, without expecting 1 anything to happen, without dreading that anything would happen. He deeply lamented what had been voken that night as to the feelings of the French people with regard to an invasion of England. He positively denied that that feel ing was such as had been represented. (Cheers.) There was no desire on the part of the French people for a war with England. There was an almost universal desire on their part to maintain peace. He would say with respect to the Russian, the Austrian, and the French rulers, that it was not safe to allow a man in great power to encroach ever so little beyond their own territories. There was an old maxim that if you allowed people to go but a very little beyond the line that separated right hem wrong they were very apt to go a great deal further without your leave. Ho was not bound to express either confidence or distrust in foreign rulers, but wo ought certainly to trust to ourselves. (Hear.) We ought to rely upon ourselves for our defence happen what might. There was but one opinion as to the positive necessity of our being well prepared in the present state of Europe. We had no distrust of foreign nations, and they had no right to complain of our being prepared when they were prepared. (Hear, hear.) The Earl of E LLENBOROUGH said—l have only avert' few words to offer, but I cannot leave the house with satis faction to myself without taking the opportunity of expres sing to my noble and learned friend my most grateful thanks for the great service which, in my opinion, he has performed. (Hear, hear.) My noble and learned friend has put an end to that fatal course of self-deception in which this country has for so many years been indulging. (Hear, hear.) He has distinctly placed before the house and the piplic the picture of what we were and what we are—of what we are under circumstances the most perilous which have occurred for the last half century. I feel con vinced that upon the most mature after reflection my noble and learned friend will not find one word in the great speech which he has delivered to-night which he would desire to alter. (Cheers.) My lords, the people of this country have, by almost all who have been in the habit of addres sing them at public meetings, been led to think much more of the past than of the present, and not at all of the future. They have been resting on the memory of past glories, and they have been imagining they were only on the morrow of 'Waterloo and Trafalgar. That is not my feeling, and it is UPo u n ei th at : now 12 years since I took the opportunity of calling atten tion to the great changes which had then taken place in the year 1815, and urging the embodiment of the militia, if that should not give the nheeseeseofthEeuradooppetiosinn c o e f the some other measures than requisite security. (Hear, hear.) I have since upon several occasions pres.ed the ' 'derations upon the public. Of all the ti' same considerations sea, because we have, in addition e to our own territory, our leeoslsonvoiesnaenrlda great commerce to defend t blur : of Euro we are the most vulnerable at nations on land, because • and if we were frontier. On all sider we are more vulnerable than all other not a naval superiority t o e we have a' much . _ I , larger exposed to-night to change the la we are exposed to attack It we . have and counsels of adopt a course of conduct use who advocate armaments n i f h e i e ll e s . protect gu us. We have been desired age which those are disposed to members of the Legislatur v e el i prudence, and to liberty of speech take refuge inconsistent with our duty as is not to be permitted to take refuge in this house ? (C what part of the world will circum stances of the war, and how has (Cheer s .) What are the both sides of the house, I believe, since War been described on solution ? I have heard the word iniquitous Wa met after the dis solution is certainly a war without justificatilouitmle applied to it. if the object be a good one, it is, not justifiable (Cheers.) Even and bad means to accomplish it. (Hear.) tillable by wrong be lieve, nor do I think any one believes, that the do not object of the war is the real one. (Cheers.) wretended hoer war declared to be for the purpose of changing the existingthe distribution of Power in Europe , which has lasteeie t o uched from the Treaty of Vienna to the p r esent time. We see it conducted by su ch an extraordinary force as natu rally to produce alarm in the mind of any one in this coun try. (Hear, hear.) France in this war appears almost as a new rower in Europe. If it be true—and I accept the declaration of the Emperor that he made no preparations — it is on that account I entertain the greatest alarm. If, without any previous preparation, the Emperor of France can in six or eight weeks place 200,000 men perfectly equipped for military operations in the centre of Northern Italy—if he can send 80,000 men by sea most rapidly with most perfect arrangements, with all that is required of mu nitions of war, and provisions carefully packed as if there had been forethought, and as if intended for transmission by sea—if, in addition to that, in a small space of time, he can place from 30,000 to 40,000 men in a powerful fleet in. the Adriatic, and there effect a descent and a rehearsal of the invasion of this country—when I see these these things done, when I see the diminished force of this country, as detailed by my noble and learned friend, in comparison with the force of France, I do feel apprehensive, and I do feel that it is the bounden duty of Government and of Parliament to place this country in a state of unattackable security. (Cheers.) lam not satisfied with the expressions of the noble earl. I am not satisfied that merely ordinary mea ns should be adopted. What I desire is that the country shall be placed in that degree of unattackable security, that strength shall be restored to our diplomacy, that we may be able really to interfere with effect in putting an end to this war and pre venting the commencement of any other. (Cheers.) Until we do that all our diplomacy is valueless. I have often heard of moral influence. Moral influence varies exactly as the amount of physical force behind it. No one, I thin of k, unless inspired with a feeling hardly English, can speak the present ruler of France as one calculated to exercise moral influence in Europe ; yet no man in Europe has more moral influence because no man commands greater force. (H ea r, hear.) 'And noble lords opposite may end upon it that, until they place this country in a degree of se curlty which renders it hopeless for France or any other Power to attempt to attack our shores, all efforts to termi nate the war by in tervention and negotiation will be entirely Without avail. (Cheers.) During the last 11 years, since . 1848, all the Powers of Europe have been endeavouring, partly from distrust of each other, and partly from distrust of their own subjects, to increase their military force. They have effected that . object ; they have effected it by great financial sacrifices. I dread both their financial weakness and their military strength, because I know that against the burdens to which they have been submiting their only hope of remedy and relief is by la combined war on this country. (Hear, hear.) It is not safe for this country to remain unarmed in the midst of armed nations, always rivals, and often engaged in hostility to each other. When one nation determines to apply all her energies to making money, and another to making preparations for war, it is obvious enough with which of the two nations all the money will ultimately be. I trust the Government will adhere precisely to the expressions which first fell from them; but I confess I am not perfectly satisfied with what fell from the noble earl to-night. (Hear, hear.) I feel there is a slight variatidn from the decided course which in the first instance they said they were fully determined to pursue. I trust they will adhere absolutely to that course, as I believe it is by that only they will secure the confidence of Parliament and the safety of the country. (Cheers.) The Duke of ARGYLL could assure the noble earl that his suspicions were entirely . unfounded. The Government had not altered their mind, but night after night noble lords were raising their demands, and if the speech of the noble and learned lord indicated his opinion of what was necessary for the defence of the country the Government would at once have to bring in a war budget and make the navy equal to the combined navies of the whole world. If, at a moment of excitement like the present, the Govern ment were to propose such estimates, it might stop clamour for a time, but when the alarm was over there would be a complete reaction, and the Government having to retrace all their steps would leave the country in a worse position than they found it. There was another point with respect to which he wished to say a few words before he resumed his seat. The present war had been described as an ini quitous war on the part of France and Sardinia, and he could assure the house that it was with the utmost reluct ance that the Government had deemed it to be their duty to sit silent during the recent discussions which had taken place on the subject. Now, he did not mean to say that circumstances of very grave anxiety with respect to the origin of the war did not exist, but he begged mostdecidedly to dissent from the opinion which without argument would assume that the present war was one of an iniquitous cha racter so far as France and Sardinia were concerned. Such an opinion would be inconsistent with the language held by the late Government, for it would be blind in the papers which were to be discussed on Friday next that the war had been denounced by the noble lord the late Secretary for Foreign Affairs as resting entirely on the head of Aus tria, which it certainly did in so far at least as that it was she who took that last step which had led to the immediate commencement of hostilities. The Duke of RUTLAND said he thought their lordships owed a great debt of gratitude to the noble and learned lord who had brought the subject under discussion before the house. It was, he thought, of the utmost importance that the country should be placed in such a position of defence as that we need not be under the necessity of rely ing for our security on any man or any nation—(hear, hear)—and he could assure the noble duke who had just spoken that there was no occasion to be alarmed at any re- action on the score of expenditure for that purpose taking place in the minds of the people of England, so long as great armaments such as at present existed were maintained on the continent of Europe. (Hear, hear.) When the war in Italy came to a termination and those armaments were decreased, it would be time enough to look for that change of public opinion which the noble duke seemed to appre hend. He did not mean to contend that this country would be invaded by France, but he knew with how little certainty the most far-seeing statesman could predict the real course of events, as was evinced by the tact that they could be in duced to place no faith in the anticipations to which he and his friends had given expression during the great free-trade struggle as to the possibility, after a peace of 30 years, of war again breaking out. A war had nevertheless been waged in 1854 of the most sanguinary character, and it was in the contest which was then carried on that, in his opi nion, the seeds of the present hostilities were sown. Who, with those facts before his eyes, could be so bold as to say that there was no possibility of England being invaded by France ? (Hear.) For his own part he would not be so i rash as to arrive at any such conclusion, and he should therefore earnestly impress upon his noble friend the First Lord of the Admiralty the necessity of rendering as effi cient as possible those "wooden walls" which his noble and learned friend who opened the discussion had so justly designated as the main defence of the country. In order to secure that object it was expedient, as his noble and learned friend had suggested, that there should be an ample supply of efficient seamen, and he therefore trusted the existing rules in relation to employment in the merchant service would be so far modified as to attain that end. The subject then dropped, and their lordships adjourned at eight o'clock. . HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. NEW MEMBERS. Mr. Bagwell took the oaths and his seat for Clonmel, and Colonel PowIetRIVATE Somerset BUSINESS.for Monmouthshire. P GRIEVE'S DISABILITIES REINIOVAL BILL. On the motion for the first reading of .this bill, which came down from the Lords, Mr. STEWART moved that the bill should be read a first time in ten days. Sir G. GREY considered it would be advisable to read the bill a first time, and when printed it could be carefully analysed by hon. members, many of whom were ignorant of its character. After some conversation the amendment was withdrawn and the bill was read a first time. TENANT COMPENSATION (IRELAND). Mr. MAGUIRE presented petitions from Cork and Kil kenny in favour of the adoption of a measure for compen sation for improvements by tenants in Ireland. MEETING OF PARLIAMENT. Mr. FOSTER gave notice that he would move an address to her Majesty, stating the inconvenience of Parliament sitting in the summer months, and to suggest that the Parliament should be called in August. PAPER DUTY. Mr. AYRTON gave notice of a motion for the repeal o the paper duty. ANCHORS. Mr. BE NTINCK moved for a copy of the report of the Anchor Committee, nominated by the Admiralty, to deter mine on the relative merits of different descriptions o anchors. THE INDIAN ARMY. Mr. TORRENS asked the Secretary of State for India whether, with reference to the report, dated 7th March last, of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the organisa tion of the Indian army, any steps have been taken to effect the formation of a permanent local army in Bengal, and for the gradual disbandment or reduction of the levies tem porarily taken into British pay during the mutiny of the native troops in that Presidency. Sir C. WOOD said ho could not state what steps had been taken in reference to the first portion of the question, 'and it involved a great number of subjects that required much consideration. With respect, to the second question he could not give any positive answer at present. THE INDIAN EUROPEAN TROOPS. Mr. VANSITTART asked the Secretary of State for India whether he had received any information regarding the excitement which had prevailed amongst the late East 1 India Company's European regiments, consequent upon the withholding of the alternative of re-enlisting with new bounty or of being discharged, on the occasion of the trans fer of their services to the Crown ; and if so, whether he had reason to believe that such excitement no longer existed ? Sir C. WOOD said that certainly some discontent pre vailed amongst the troops in question, arising from their belief that they had not been fairly treated in being trans ferred to the Queen's service. An investigation had been commenced, and it appeared that in the course the Indian army had adopted they seemed to have forgotten altogether the oath they had taken on entering service. He could only add that the investigation was proceeding. ATLANTIC STEAM NAVIGATION COMPANY. Mr. BAXTER asked the First Lord of the Treasury if the attention of her Majesty's Government had been called to the contract entered into with the Atlantic Steam Navi gation Company, to carry the mails between Galway and the United States ; and whether they considered it advisable in the interest of the public that the said contract should, under certain conditions, be cancelled ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the attention of her Majesty's Government had been called not only to this particular question, but to the general'sub ject of the contracts which had been entered into for the conveyance of the mails, and the whole system would be carefully considered. He was anxious that the subject be brought forward as quickly as pos sible, and therefore he gave notice that he would move for an inquiry into the manners and the circum stances under which contracts for the mail service for some years had been entered into with different Go • vernments. He could not bring the subject forward earlier than the day he named, as to-morrow was fixed for other business. POOR LAWS. Mr. AYRTON said that, considering the Govern ment had only recently come into office and that the session was so far advanced he would postpone till next session his motion fora select committee, to enquire into the operation awl administration of the laws for the relief of the poor in Great Britain and Ireland. amount of the pension to which he was entitled. However, the situatio, 1 proved anything but lucurative, and for some years Mr., Ryland was actually out of pocket while he held it. For some years he endeavoured to ob tain compensation, but without success, the Govern ment of this country considering that the question should be decided by the colonial Government by whom it was re pudiated. The consequence was, that the unfortunate gentleman was for years unable to obtain any redress, and at length succeeded in obtain* only a .sum of £9,000 as a reward. ,He concluded by en treating the house to grant the committee, and to remove any impression that might be produced as to full justice not being done in this country to individuals who felt themselves aggrieved in the colonies. Mr. FORTESCUE said that this was an old question, but it had come before the house on the present occasion in a totally different form to that in which it had previously presented itself. A few years ago this subject had been referred to an impartial party, who had made anaward which Mr. Ryland had accepted. The abolition of Mr. Ryland's office was an act of the Imperial Parliament. A great change, was made with reference to the provinces of Canada which were united, and an entirely new Council, as well as new officers, had to be elected. It was necessary that there should be an alteration with reference to Mr. Ryland, as regarded the office of Clerk in Council. There were good reasons for his not being appointed to that office, because he was at the time a very strong political partisan, and, consequently, not fitted under the circum stances for that situation. He was then offered the office which he accepted as a speculation, and if it did not turn out as profitable as he expected the Government was not to blame. It was true that Mr. Ryland made a protest at the time which Lord Sydenham was prevented from noticing by his sudden illness. Besides it was the opinion of three Secretaries of State that the subject was not one for the consideration of the imperial but the colonial Government. The house then divided, and there appeared— For the motion Against it 235 Majority against the motion —2ls RAILWAY COMPANIES' ARBITRATION. Col. W. PATTEN moved for leave to bring in a bill to enable railway companies to settle their differences with other companies by arbitration. Leave was given to bring in the bill. COUNTY COURT COMMITMENTS. Mr. COLLIER moved for leave to bring in a bill to limit the power of imprisonment for small debts exercised by the county court judges. The county courts, he said, had exercised their jurisdiction with great satisfaction to the country, and only one point remained upon which there was any dissatisfaction. That point was the power of im prisonment. In the superior courts, imprisonment operated as a discharge from debt, but with county courts it was otherwise, for the judges of these courts had the power of imprisoning as a punishment, while imprisonment did not operate as a discharge of the debt in respect of which it was incurred. He believed that Parliament intended that the power of imprisonment should be exercised in cases of fraud only. This, he conceived, was evident from the language of the act itself. Some of the county court judges, how ever, had construed the act so as to :enable them to com mit the defendant merely for non-appearance. The conse quence was that a number of poor persons had been sent to prison who had not been guilty of any fraud, without con tempt, and in some cases without injury, for various periods not exceeding 40 days. This was' unquestionably a great hardship, which Farliament certainly never in tended. In the year 1858, the number of commitments for non-appearance alone, without any cases of fraud, amounted to no fewer than 8,361. (Hear.) Tie Lord Chief Baron, in 'a charge to the grand jury of Bedford, had called attention to this subject, and to the expenses which such commit ments entailed upon the county; and in the same charge the learned judge mentioned that in one case the defendant had been committed eight times for a single debt, and five times for another for periods of 30 days each, for non-ap pearance. (Hear.) The imprisonment lasted, therefore, sever al months. The debt was only £ 2 15 s. in the first instance, so that, as the cost of maintaining the defendant was 10s. 6d. per week, it would have been cheaper for the county to pay the debt at once. In 1857, one judge committed no fewer than 546 persons, and another 749 ; while it was understood that the number of commitments this year would show an increase over those' of 1858 of about 2,000. (Hear.) By the bill which he (Mr. Collier) had prepared, he proposed that no county court judge should be empowered to imprison a debtor merely for non-appear ance, or without being satisfied that he had contracted the debt by fraud, or, which was nearly the same thing, that he had the means of payment, but withheld payment. He proposed that no man should be imprisoned upon the same judgment for a longer period than twice 40 days. (An hon. member—" That is too long.") Well, he merely pro posed that time, leaving the ultimate decision to the judg ment of the committee of the house. By such enactments he believed the efficiency of the county courts would be ma terially increased, and many hardships prevented. The hon. and learned member concluded by moving for leave to bring in the bill. Mr. MALIN S seconded the motion, and said it was one of the misfortunes of this branch of the law, that it was not administered in the face of a learned and vigilant bar. He could not have supposed, if he had not heard it said in that house, that the power of imprisonment had been so largely exercised. Those abuses ought to be totally abo lished, and their repetition watchfully guarded against. The abolition of the power of imprisonment for debt on mesne process had been attended with great benefit, and he conceived it might be abolished in all cases, even in cases of execution, except upon special application to a judge, and upon special grounds. He should propose in committee that imprisonment for non-payment should be limited to much less than 40 days. Capt. STEWART mentioned several cases of hardship upon individuals, particularly females, which had been caused by the power of commitment, and stated that it had the effect of materially adding to the burden of the county rates. Mr. COCHR A.NE said that in many of these cases per sons were committed for contempt of court, and anything was construed into contempt of court ; and he must say, of all tyrannies, a legal tyranny was the worst. (Hear.) He cordially supported the bill. Mr. HENLEY thanked the hon. member for bringing this subject before the house. He understood debtors were treated as criminals. That should be attended to. Then these parties were considered as fraudulent debtors ; but when they considered the number of minutes each case took to dispose of, they might imagine the degree of inquiry that took place previous to committal. Mr. CLIVE said it did not seem probable there was in this house that experience of the nature of these tribunals which there was e l s ewhere. His not isowzec practice,rkless a a s hndatd beenhatof most county court judges, was supposed. The cause was first tried, and in nine cases out of ten the debt was admitted and the debtor generally named his own time for payment. If he did not pay, a. judg ment summons was issued ; and if the debtor did not ap pear, it was generallybecause he did not wish to be examined as to his means. The judge then inquired of the creditor as to his probable means, and decided upon that evidence. If that was objected to, and if the creditor was to be deprived of the power of enforcing payment of his debt, then the house might say so, and abolish compulsory means of en forcing payment of debts altogether. After a few observations from Mr. BRISCOE and Mr. COLLIER, Leave was given to bring in the bill. Captain LEICESTER VERNON rose to move that this house do resolve itself into a committee to consider of an humble address to be presented to her Majesty, praying that she will bo graciously pleased to give directions that the benefits conferred by the Royal warrant of the 17th day of December, 1855, upon regimental quartermasters re tiring subsequent to the date of the declaration of war with Russia be extended, so far only as the honorary rank of captain is concerned, to those regimental quartermasters who• completed the period of service specified in the warrant, but who had retired previous to that date. That motion referred only to 39 soldiers of a great age, all of whom had served with great honour in the Britisharmy. Since that motion had been placed on the paper, the autho rities had taken their case into consideration, and had pro moted these soldiers, for which he begged leave to return their grateful thanks. He therefore withdrew his motion. The SPEAKER said it was contrary to the rules of the house to speak and conclude with no motion. VOLUNTEER CORPS. Mr. PALK moved—" That this house shall, upon Tues day next, resolve itself into a committee to consider of an humble uddress to her Majesty, praying that she would be graciously pleased to give directions that the necessary arms, accoutrements, and ammunition be furnished to volunteer rifle corps under the provisions of the Act 44 Geo. 111., c. 54, as well as to artillery corps in maritime towns, and to assure her Majesty that this house would make_ good. the same." The circular of the present Go vernment had been received with disapprobation by the country ; but that of.the late Government had been well received, because it recognised the right of all persons to arm for, the defence of their country. That was a right essential to be preserved. France was increasing her navy and fortifying her shores. - England alone, of all Euro pean countries, was quiescent ; Russia was most active is arming. The introduction of steam enabled our shores to be attacked by' any foe menacing our shores. The port of Dartmouth could not be assaulted by sailing vessels, but lately a French steamer had been known to leave the coast of France and anchor in that harbour in the middle of the night, and French vessels had been seen taking soundings there. Dartmouth was peculiarly susceptible of defence, for if batteries were erected they might be left to volunteers until they could be aided by regular troops. The. plan of the Government was not satis factory.• It was proposed to give twenty-five rifles to every hundred men, 'under certain conditions. He should he glad to know• whether these were all the arms they were to receive ; and whether the rest was to be found by the men He was informed that the Government contracts for the manufacture of arms would prevent private purchases, and therefore, unless additional facilities were given, there were no means by which, the public could provide themselves with the means of defence. There was also great doubt whether it was intended by Government that the volunteers should be arranged in companies or in regiments. He had received a letter from an officer in her Majesty's service who had taken much interest in this movement, which stated that uncertainty on the points to which he had referred preventedsuch rapid progress being made in the formation of these corps as would otherwise be the case. He thought these facts opened a very large question. It was a question for the house and the Govertment to decide, whether they were going to accept the services of all who might offer themselses,•and form them into regiments of volunteers. If they did that, even to supply every 100 with 25 rifles, would entail a great expense upon the country. But if, on the other hand, the volunteers were formed simply into companies, who would be accessories to the regular defencea of .the country. in case of. need, he thought they would. come to the proper • conclusion. Such promptly—(hear, districts iiform co e u d ld int a (fliomear-e, formed in ar _ rural wh e r ea g, they would be called off to practice at great distances. These were- questions of .great .interest to the country. Under any circumstances the country had a right to de mand from the Government that our coasts should be fully defended against the possibility cf an invasion. There were hon. members in the house who ridiculed the idea of inva octretglnetehnetrs often twitted -for so . constantly bringing the question be sion, and an•hon. and gallant admiral (Sir C. Napier) was fore them, but lie (Mr. Palk) must say that there were grave grounds for carefullyconside rin g the question. When he saw on the throue of France a ruler, who though ho had kept faith with us, had broken it to his own subjects— when he remembered the language of the French colonels towards this country not many months ago, and which raised such a storm of anger and discontent among all classes—when he recollected the attention that the im any undue mistrust in a mwaenssneoptrdepesairraoluiosnsofmeaxdperebs ysintghe Emperor for the present war were mei ely to replace th e losses caused by the war in the Crimea—recollecting all these and other facts, while he ruler whom he preferred to judge by his acts rather than his words, he must say that he should feel much more con fidence if the people of this country were properly drilled and disciplined to meet any contingency, and the vulner able parts of our coast put in a better state of defence than at present, and with these views he begged to move the resolution he had placed on the paper. (Hear, hear.) Captain JERVIS seconded the motion. 11, BERKELEY ev,id ho felt indebted to hie Wu, friend opposite for bringing forward this question. It was one which deserved the consideration of the house and the Government, and was of vast consideration to the country. There could be no doubt that Englishmen were less prepared to resist an attack than the people of any other country in the 'civilised world. The question simply amounted to this —in the case of invasion, discipline would enable them to repel it— without discipline they would become but a fright ened rabble —( hear, hear) discipline and courage were in such cases convertible terms. It appeared to him that both the late and the present Government were wrong upon this question, and that, in fact, all recent Governments had done all in their power to prevent the enrolling of vo lunteers. But now that this reluctance had been at least partially overcome, it was important to see that proper steps were taken to organise the volunteer corps in the most effective manner. If the Government did not supply both arms and clothing, he hoped that, while they gave every encouragement to the formation of volunteer corps among the middle classes, they would, at the same time, insist upon proper praCtising grounds being provided. He had a letter from a gentleman who, while walking with two ladies, heard something whistle past him, for which he could not account. One of the ladies said, "It is too early for cock chafers"—(a laugh)—and immediately after another went past, and into a wall, whereupon the gentleman, with his knife, extracted it, and found it was a minie bullet. This was a matter which called for great care and precaution He would add one more suggestion, and that was, that the yeomanry, who were a body of volunteers, might be made much more effective if they were drilled like the Cape of Good Hope volunteers, to artillery and coast as well as ca valry exercise. Having the means of rapid movements at their command, they could arrive where their services might be needed sooner than other bodies not so placed. He would train them to the use of the rifle as well as the sword. (Hear, hear.) Col. DICKSON thought it was a matter of great import ance that artillery corps should at once be established in the maritime towns on the coast. Lord H. VANE said there could be no doubt that their shores were very inadequately defended ; but it did not fol low that volunteer rifle corps were the best to do so. He was convinced that these corps would not be organised in so efficient a manner as to render other forces unnecessary. He believed that in the maritime towns a maritime artil lery was absolutely necessary, for certainly in that which he had the honour to represent there were no defences whatever. Means should be taken to bring large forces at the shortest notice upon any given point where an emer gency arose ; and such men would be much more efficient than any rifle corps that could be established. He did not believe the Government would be able to get at that time a sufficient number of rifles to satisfy all the demands made_ upon them by the various volunteer corps, and they ought, therefore, to take the number offered by the Government, which in his opinion would serve for the ordinary purposes of drill. The whole question, he repeated ought to be care fully considered by the right hon. gentleman the Secretary at War before any decision was come to on the subject. Mr. E. DUNCOMBE was of • opinion that, in addition to their army and the aid given by volunteer corps, their main reliance should be in the great efficiency of their navy. Mr. BRISCOE thought the great difficulty arose from the circumstance that neither the late or present Govern ment had made up their minds as to whether the proposed force of rifle corps should assume a permanent character, or be used for a temporary purpose. For his own part he did not think the Emperor of the French meditated an in vasion of this country, and he had therefore heard with great pain the reffections lately made upon a friendly Power He had behaved towards England with perfect fairness and honour, and certainly the animadversions and abuse poured upon him by the press of this country were totally uncalled , for. General PEEL said that having been appealed to by the hon. gentleman, hemight state the views of the late Go vernment. .The circular issued by them did not arise from any fear on their part. Numerous and urgent appli cations were, however, made to them for permission to form rifle corps, on the express understanding that they were to be of no expense to the country. (Cheers.) The first application was from Bristol, and no sooner was that granted, and the Government circular issued, than numerous applications were made to them to supply rifles. Those applications were refused on two grounds ; in the first place, because there were not rifles enough in store to justify the Government in spreading them all over the country. The number of rifles then in, store was 170,000, out of which the disembodied militia were to be furnished. The late Go vernment made contracts for the supply of every rifle that could be produced in this country for the next two years. They then turned to Belgium, but before entering into con tracts with the manufacturers of that country they appiied to the Belgian Government to know whether their contracts with Belgian manufacturers were likely to be interfered with, and whether there was any probability that the rifles would not be supplied. The Belgian Government replied that there was no probability of such an event, and contracts were then made with Belgian manufacturers, Contracts were now made for every arm that could be supplied in this country, and the weekly supply had been increased from 1,000 to 1,500, and yet after supplying the whole of the regular army and militia there would only be 300,000 rifles in store wherewith to supply the volunteers if the Government should determine to arm them. He quite agreed with the right hon. gentle man (Mr. S. Herbert) that if the Government gave the vo lunteer rifle corps 25 per cent. of rifles for drill and practice it would be quite sufficient. (Hear, hear.) The companies would only have one musketry instructor at a time, and 25 per cent. would be quite enough for rifle practice. There was a great deal for riflemen to learn. Unless, for example, they learnt the bugle sounds and were acquainted with all the drill and practice of riflemen, they would be found per fectly useless as soldiers. He hoped his right hon. friend (Mr. Sidney Herbert) would adhere to his determination that the volunteers should be raised in companies instead of larger bodies, for they would not then require the de gree of drill which would otherwise be necessary, and such a plan would be much more advantageous. If the rifle corps were ever called out, it had been the inten tion of the late Government to supply them with everything needful. Meanwhile, however, it should, as far as possible, be a voluntary movement. Those who pro vided themselves with arms and accoutrement were not likely to join the militia or the regular forces, and it was very important that the recruiting for those services should not be interfered with. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentle man had represented the number of troops in this country as much smaller than was actually the case. The number of troops of one kind or another now in this country, in cluding militia. was about 110,000; there was also a larger force of artillery than at any other time, and he believed it was in a most efficient state. (Hear, hear.) It was most important to encourage the proposed volunteer artillery corps. We had 3,600 guns in position, requiring 10 men to work each gun, or 36,000. This being so, it-was useless to talk about putting up more fortifications, for they re quired garrisons and troops which we had not got. (sher.) The most efficient means of protecting our coast was per haps by moveable batteries, of which 15 were already com plete, and 10 more ordered, so that here would be 150 moveable guns which might be placed on any part of the coast, and when we had got these batteries composed of Armstrong guns. they would form the best possible defence which the country could have. Every effort should be used to induce the inhabitants of seaport towns to join these ar tillery corps ; they should be supplied with ammunition and guns, and it might be even expedient to pay them for their services when engaged. If, however, these rifle volun teers generally were supplied with arms and ammunition, many would come forward and join them who would fire away a great deal of powder, and then perhaps retire from the corps altogether, for the Government, it should be re collected, had no hold upon them whatever. With regard to our coast defences there were now in course of construce tion fortifications which would cost £2,000,000, and, includ . ing those that were contemplated, £4,000,000 would be . spent in this way. Now, he thought, on bringing in the estimates, that the house would do well to consider whether these were necessary or not. If they were, it was not right to vote the money . in driblets, and to wait for their com pletion at their present slow rate of progress. Not that he feared invasion, and he believed nothing had ever fallen from him implying that he had any such dread • but at the same time they ought always to be prepared.(Hear.) At the present moment he thought it hardly possible to decide what fortifications were necessary until the effect of rifled . guns upon masonry had been fully ascertained, belief was that fortifications were now being built which might prove of very little service. As far as recent experin and his meats had gone, the effect of rifled earthworks than upon masonry. Tt was obviousolso hat fortifications a 0 yards guns was less upo at fortifications constructed to meet a range of -, would be almost useless against more powerfu artillery. It It was proper, therefore, to decide what fortificationsapossible.r necessary, and then to complete them as soon fl i t .made He believed that these volunteer rifle corps mg of the greatest possible service. If, however,_ the de G at their would overn ment interfered toe much, they probably own object. The various corps s h o uld be left to appoint their own hours of drill, and to lay down their own rules as far as possible ; Governmen t in t, , r f ere nce would be likely to , disgust them, and they would m uch prefer to be left to themselves. (Hear, hear.) Lord ELCHO thought nothing less became a great country like this th an to be in this chronic panic. He did not stand up to defend the lanuage used toward s a neighbouring poten tate either by . the press or others, but he heard in another place that night language used by Lord Lyndhurst, i n making a speech on tie national de fences—(6, Order," from the Speaker) — he heard Lord L yn dh urs t stating reasons why there should be additional defences in this country. He (Lord Elcho) did think we should have some permanent means of defence. He thanked the h on . gentleman for endeavouring- to encourage those volunteer corps. Some hon. gentlemen said they would be of no use—some even said that they would be only oi n the way." Without the pressmiption of putting his sen opinion against high military authorities, he thought the upper, the middle, and the intelligent portion of the artisans would form a large and effective force, but now , for wa nt of training, they would, i n th e e ff ent of an invasion, ba no better than so many old women. How many even of the members of that house hadheen trained to the use of arms ? Yet they were able-bodied men, at least their constituents thought them so, or they would not, expect them to discharge their dutie s i n th e present state of the Th a mes. (Hear, hear.) [The stench from the Thames at this moment was scarcely tolerable.] How many of them, except those who had been trained to arms, would be of the slightest use in case of an invasion ? All that was now proposed was, that the classes he had referred to should re ceive such an amount of training and organisation, that hi the course of a fortnight or three weeks, they would be able t o work together. He calc u l a t e d that the population of London alone would furnish 200,000 volunteers. The his tory of the Tyrol, La V en d ee, S w i tzerland, an d * G ar ibaldi's corps furnished proofs of what could be done in a few weeks by means of such a corps. Those men who joined Gari balbi learned th e i r d r ill in a few weeks, because they be longed to the intelligent classes. If we organised c orps from the intelligent classes, the re wou ld b e n o more of these peri odical panics. (Hear.) He thought the present Govern ment had exercised a wise discretion in offering the volun teer corps the proportion of arms which had been stated. Col. DUNNE said the country should place no depen dence on volunteer corps. After all that had been said about them 5,000 had not been raised yet. The only use he could see in them was to excite a military spirit which might in duce men to enlist for regular warfare, but they never could be of any real use unless they submitted themseves to mili tary di .cipline. (Hear, hear.) But had they got 5,000 men now who had consented to do so : He thought we should have 150,000 men Wider arms for the defenoa o f th e country, but we should not rely on those who took up arms merely as an amusement. (Hear.) Sir J. V. SHELLEY was afraid that the observations of the hon. and gallant gentleman might We the effect of throwing cold water on the moveme n t, He, however, had not a vast respect for those high military authorities who preferred "Brown Doge to the Minie rifle. (Laughs ter.) He approved of the proposition of the G overnmen t to furnish arms to 25 p er cent. of the corps, for the same quantity of arms would be sufficient to instruct, alternately, the whole number. (Hear, bear.) CoIoneIVI N INB said he never intend e d t o th r ow 'cold' P water on the movement, he only wished to put the subject in its proper light. Mr. S. HERBERT—I think the discussion whioh has taken place has been a very useful one. There is great diversity of opinion upon matters of detail, but at any rate by discussion we come at last to know what it is we want. I have been asked whether or not the Government ever con templated the volunteer corps becoming a permanent force. If these corps turn out as useful as I hope and expect, they will become part of our permanent establishment—(hear, hear)—but when I say that I do not mean that for 20 or even 100 volunteers a single regular soldier will be dis • placed. (Hear, hear.) We are willing to make as perfect a soldier as we can of every man who is willing to take our pay and subject himself to our discipline. (Hear, hear.) In this country, however, there is very little military spirit. There is a martial, but very little military spirit, although even in this house a great change has taken place since the militia was called into existence. Formerly the army esti mates were discussed very coldly, almost the only speakers being a few military officers ' • but now we see how much the existence of the militia has spread a military feeling and imparted military knowledge to gentlemen of influ ence in their respective localities. What we want now is to get the middle classes imbued with an interest in our means of defence, and I think the volunteer corps will be useful in doing that. (Hear, hear.) The late Secretary for War has doubts, on account of the state of our stores, whether it was wise to issue rifles to these corps. If the present state of our stores had been permanent, I should have hesitated, but seeing there is a rapid increase every week, and that next year our stores will be much enlarged, I thought that instead of allowing our arms to remain use less it would be better to have men behind them engaged in military exercises. (Hear.) If we had asked the volunteer corps to arm and clothe themselves, and pay for their own drill and musket instruction, and nothing for them in re turn but put them under military law, the effect would have been discouraging in the extreme. We must have some influence over them, and unless there is some equity in the dealings between us, we cannot expect them to pay due deference to the military authorities. Such, at all events, were the reasons which induced us to offer arms, as far as our means would permit. (Hear.) I have been asked what we would do for them in case of war. In case of war, of course, they would be armed ; but those who point to the times of George 111. ought to recollect that circum stances are very different now from what they were then. People talk in a very loose way about invasion, but at that time it stared us in the face in the practical shape of a large camp within reach of our telescopes, and we were obliged to call out every man, and both dress and arm them. At present my only fear is that the volunteers will be rather too fond of uniforms; at all events, we need be under no apprehension that in case of war they may be improperly dressed. (Hear.) As to raising them in companies or battalions, there is a broad distinction to be observed. In thinly populated districts it would be impossible to raise them in battalions, for you may depend upon it that men engaged in the ordinary pursuits of life will not consent to attend drill or practice at a distance from their homes. There is a question as to whether these volunteer corps should be formed into battalions or companies. In case of war you must form them into battalions, and therefore it will be a great advantage if some of them have a knowledge of battalion drill. There will be great facilities for this inlarge towns, where you can raise a sufficient number of compantes to form a battalion ; and it may be accomplished in the man ner which Ito-day suggested to a deputation of gentlemen who are raising several companies, and wish to have them formed into a battalion. I explained to them the difficulties which attended that course, but said, "If you are going to raise eight or ten companies let the gentlemen who have the management of them combine, let them all have the same uniform and the same code of regulations, and they can then at any moment be formed into a batta lion without the slightest difficulty or expense." (Hear.), I have stated that the Government are very anxious to pro mote the formation of these corps. As auxiliaries I believe they will be most useful. (Hear.) If ever they are made a substitute for a regular force, I believe they will be most mischievous. (Hear.) The gallant officer says that without discipline a population is ureless ; but is not that a reason for attempting to drill them while you can ? (Hear.) Every one says that you must keep up a large store of muskets — so many for the regular army, so many for the militia em bodied and disembodied, and, beyond this, 20,000 or 30,000 stand of arms for arming the population ; but, if you are going to arm the population surely it is wise to give them as much knowledge of the duties as you can. For all these reasons the Government feel most grateful to the gentle men who have undertaken the formation of these corps. They have done so at the sacrifice of much time and often of lucrative employments, and I think that the country owes them a debt of gratitude for the exertions which they are making. (Hear, hear.) I trust that in this house members will not press too hard upon the Government with the different views and theories which they may entertain. I think that we have got into a good groove, and that by steadily pursuing it we may effect much good, especially by the formation of volunteer artillery corps. Not only have you now in position guns which would require 38,000 men to work, but you have every day an augmentation of bat teries requiring additional men. A volunteer artillery corps is not merely an auxiliary ; it becomes a substitute for the Royal Artillery, which can be employed better and more effectually elsewhere. For these reasons the Government are anxious to give every encouragement to such forces. In bringing forward` this motion my hon. friend has done a public service ; but as there seems to be a great unanimity upon this subject, I hope he will not press it to a division. (Hear, hear.) Mr. PALK replied briefly, remarking that therighthon. gentleman opposite had not answered the question upon which, most of all, he wished for reply, viz., the formation of volunteer artillery corps in undefended districts. He would not notpress the subject any further, however, bging quite willing to leave it to the judgment of the Governrrent, and therefore with the permission of the house, he should withdraw his motion. ' The motion was*then withdrawn. THE COURT OF ADMIRALTY. Mr. HADFIELD moved for leave to bring in a bill to enable serjeants, banisters-at-law, attorneys, and solicitors, to practice ix the High Court of Admiralty. One member e the Government (Mr. C. P. Villiers) he knew was in fa vour of such a measure, and in principle it had already been agreed to two years ago in the Probate Act, and had been thrice affirmed, while the hon. and learned gentleman, the Attorney-General, approved of its general principle. The hon. and learned gentleman stated that he did not intend to confer compensation on the proctors in reference to the pro posed change. The motion having been seconded, Sir G. C. LEWIS (Home Secretary) said the opinions of the hon. gentleman were no doubt well founded, and it was a question which would be properly considered by her Ma jesty's Government. There was only one matter of fact in which the hon. gentleman had, he thought, understated his case, namely, thatwherein he suggested that rewards to the amount of £169,000 should be given to proctors, w h e reas in his opinion, it was £169,000 a-year, a n d w ith that he was quite willing to give his assent to the introduction of the bill. (Hear.) Leave was given accordingly to bring in the bill. FOREIGN ENLISTMENT ACT. Mr. DIGBY SEYMOUR moved for leave to introduce a bill to amend the Foreign Enlistment Act, so far as re lates to transports and storeships. The act was only n tsehnipdsedwtaos apprapdlyucttoivperialteaearsidiaffindaulittys aapnpdliican injustice. Sir store jasusatnbee in opportune Sir G . C . mam V nt LEWIS to observed alterthe tlhaawt thewhich . presenthaaw. appealed ad to ha b an y raesßpeocytaeld by y ro e c a la c m h a s t u io a n c , ead th in e s_A_ provisions dstra of tion since 1819. He therefore aid not feel justified in assent ing to the introduction of the bill. Mr. BOWYER believed that the proposed bill would render the preservation of neutrality more difficult, and would lead to serious contraventions of international law. Mr. COLLIER would not have consented to the passing of the act now sought to.be altered, but at the same time argued that the present was not a fit time for altering it. Mr. DIGBY SEYMOUR withdrew his motion. MEMBERS ACCEPTING OFFICE. WRIGHTSON moved for leave to bring in a bill to alter and amend the Act 6 Anne, 0. 7, with respect to vacat ing seats in Parliament on acceptance of office. The sole object was to prevent the necessity of vacating seats on change SMITH said this m o ti on was formerly negatived ir. A o . f oce. w b is awdf y i ae( iffprru a eaeereseesesinthe considerable einspff riewoentelrh:ai ecu laancytintdammdge majority. uitntghshahtebe tlbeeip ersonsac oo inconveniences vs iedn A eir t eteno t d h e presenteaoecsncaepf rn thisepl almew.o,mhTue This i t i st theybill,wa h ff e e at circumstancesdoafptthef from o t mthos emightt h accept t beGoffice by e underot hvt u nder which ideeencrnhtt com pletelyf: h e a slin yy that advocated by the nation. He should give this motion a most decided negative. Mr. INGHAM said there was now a balance of autho rity on this question, and therefore it was fair and reasonable to bring the question before the house. He would support the bill. The house then divided, when there appeared— For the motion 6l Against it Majority against the motion —2 TURNPIKE AND BRIDGE TOLLS. Mr. ALCOCK moved that an address be presented to her Majesty, praying that she will be graciously pleased to issue a Royal Commission to inquire into and report as to the best means of abolishing the tolls on the turnpike roads and bridges in England and Wales. Sir. G. C. LEWIS urged the great improvement which had of late years taken place in the management of turn pike trusts, and the many interests involved, as a reason for opposing the motion. Mr. HOPE said it was very easy to abolish tolls, but not easy to establish a rate instead. Mr. CRAUFURD proposed that the wording of the Scotoh commission should be taken in place of that of the present motion. Mr. B, CARTER considered the present motion prema ture till the result of existing commissions was made known. The motion was negatived without a division. CHURCH RATE COMMUTATION BILL. Mr. ALCOCK obtained leave to bring in a bill for the voluntary commutation of church rates. FISHERIES REGULATION. Mr. HOP WOOD obtained leave to bring in a bill for the more effectual preservation and increase of the breed of salmon and fish of the salmon kind, andfor the better regu lating the fisheries in the rivers of England. ARMY (HALF-PAY OFFICERS). Colonel NORTH moved that this house will to-morrow resolve itself into a committee to consider of a humble address to her Majesty, that she will be graciously pleased to grant the hale-pay of £4OO a-year, unattached pay,' to cer tarn general officers who obtained promotion upon half-pay under the provisions of the general order of the 23d day of April, 1826, who have since become General officers, and are now receiving only the half-pay o f th e i r reg imental rank, and to assure her Majesty that this house will make good the same. Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said he could not accede to the motion of the gallant officer, w ho, he thought, had somewhat misund ers t oo d the order to which he referred. These officers were subject to the ordinary regulations which existed at th e period alluded to, as well as before and since. There must Le a service of six years as a field office', whereas some of these gentlemen had not done a day's service since 1826, when they went on half-pay. Moreover, there was an express stipulation with respect to their widows, which, by the manner in which it was expressed, l Ne i man sowed can that getno otherx4oo a- r, e advantagesyeerlswes. a retobe expected.day, as he said, unless he was engaged as a field officer for six years, general PEEL took a different view of the subject from his right hon. friend. As to his being obliged to serve six years as a field officer, that was not the construction he put upon. it. On what principle, he would ask, could tho w i dow of a m ajor-general receive his pension, when he himself did not enjoy his real pay while-he lived, in conse quence of the general order to which allusion had been made ? Colonel NORTH said he felt so strongly upon the sub ject that he should take the sense of the house on it. Colonel DUNNE complained that those officers were Induced to take a rank, which they accepted in the full confidence that their half-pay would be continued in the same proportion. The house then divided, when the numbers were— For the resolution Against it 42 Majority —2o The motion was then negatived. Sir R. FERGUSON moved for leave to bring in a bill to facilitate internal communication in Ireland, by means of trararoads and tramways. Agreed to. CATHOLIC EMANCIPATION ACT. Sir W. SOMERVILLE moved for leave w bring in a bill to repeal so much of the Emancipation Act of 18'29 as prohibited Roman Catholics from holding the office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland. Sir C. LEWIS gave his assent cordially to the motion, and stated that he would support the second reading of the bill. The house having gone into committee, a resolution was Rassed authorising the introduction of the bill, and it was subsequently introduced. The Trial by Juries (Scotland) Bill was read a third time and passed. The new bills ordered to be introduced in the course of the evening were read a first time, and the house adjourned at half-past twelve o'clock. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIOA S. HOUSE OF COMMONS.--JULY 5. MEMBERS ACCEPTING OFFICE. Motion made and Question put, " That leave be given to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the Act 6 Anne, c. 7, with respect to Vacating Seat 4 in Parliament on accept ance of Office."—The House divided ; Ayes 51, Noes 53. MR. G. H. RYLAND. Mr. GREGORY moved for a select committee to inquire into the arrangements under which Mr. G. H. Ryland was induced to resign the patent office of Clerk of the Council in Canada; whether that step was taken under a distinct guarantee from the Imperial Lord High Commissioner Lord Sydenham ; and if so,. whether that guarantee had ever been fully and fairly carried out by the Imperial Govern ment. He contended that Mr. Ryland had been treated with great injustice, and that his case was entitled to full investi gation by that house. It appeared that Lord Sydenham, the Lord High Commissioner of Canada in 1841, being de sirous of effecting a union between the two province s , it wa s arranged that Mr. Ryland should resign his situation, receiving a retiring pension of £515 a year, and accept the situation of registrar of the district of Quebec. It was understood that this situation was to be equivalent to the THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 6, 1859 AYES -51. ----- --- Bagwell, J. Gordon, Capt. Pollard 11rquhartW Baines, E. Herbert, S. Pritchard, John Baring, Thos. Geo. Horsfall, T. B. Ridley, G. Baxter, W. E. Hunt, G. W. Robertson, D. Berkeley, F. Hugessen, E. K. Russell, Hastings Black, Adam Laing, S. Smith, Abel Bonham-Carter, J. Leatham, W. Somerville, Sir W. Brand, H. B. Lewis, Sir G.C., Bt. Stuart, Major W. Buller, J. W. Lyall, G. Warre, J. A. Bury, Viscount M'Cann, J. Wallington, J. W. Campbell, W. F. Massey, W. N. Whitbread, S. Cave S. Miller, William White, Luke Clive, George Mundy, William. Wilson, J. Dunbar, Sir Wm. North, F. Wood, Rt Hn. Sir C. Dunlop, A. M. Northcote, Sir S. H. Wyvill, M. Evans, T. W. Paget, C. TELL I RS. Ewart, J. C. Peel, Gem Wrightson, W. B. Ferguson, Sir R. A. Philips, J. H. Ingham, R. NOES-53. Alcock, T. Gladstone, Capt. O'Connell, D. Angerstein, W. Greaves, Edward Pease, H. Bazley, Thomas Greene, Capt. J. Powys, L. P. Beecroft, G. S. Griffith, C. D. Quinn, Peter Bowyer, W. Hadfield, Geo. Rogers, John J. Brady, John Hodgson, K. D. Rothschild,Baron L. Bridges, Sir 8., Bt. Hood, Sir A. Roupell, W. Briscoe, J. I. Hopwood, J. T. Seymour, I)igb' Buchanan, W. Hornby, W. H. Sibthorpe, G. T. W. Collins, T., jun. Howes, Edward Steuart, A. Craufurd, E. H. J Humberstone, P. S. Sullivan, M. Cubitt, Ald. Lacon, Sir E. Trelawny, Sir J. S. Davey, R. Lever, John 0. Vandeleur, Col. Dodson, John G. Long, R. P. Way, Arthur E Douglas, Sir C. Maguire, J. F. Williams, W Dunne, Col.' Monk, C. J. Gard, R. S. Monson, W. J. Gavin, Major Morris, D. Gilpin, Colonel North, Col TELLERS Ayrton, A. S. Smith, A. MR. G. H. RYLAND. Motion made and Question put, " That a Select Committee' be appointed to inquire into the arrangements under which Mr. G. H. Ryland was induced to resign the patent office of Clerk of the Council in Canada ; whether that step was taken under a distinct guarantee from the Imperial Lord High Commissioner Lord Sydenham ; aud, if so, whether that guarantee has ever been fully and fairly carried out by the Imperial Government."-- The House divided; Ayes 20, Noes 235. AYES-20. Beamish, F. B. Hennessy, John Ridley, George Brady, John Kekewich, S. - Vance, John Crufurd, Edw. Ker, David Whalley, George Ellice, Rt. Hon. E. Maguire, J. F. Williams, W. Ellice, E. O'Connell, Capt. D. Elphinstone, Sir J. Paxton, Sir J. TELLERS. Esmonde, John Pease, Henry Mr. Gregory Foley, Henry, Pollard Urquhart W Mr. Daniel COUNTRY MARICETS. LIVERPOOL--JULY 5. , The market to-day was tolerably supplied with grain of all descriptions. The attendance of buyers was limited, and in the sales effected very little variation took place from late rates.. LEEDS-JuLy 5. This day's market was tolerably well attended. Wheat and flour sold in retail, and we merely repeat previous quo tations. Barley and oats at late rates. Averages for the week : Wheat 2,608 qrs., at 47s Old Beans 4O " 4ss 3d Barley— ••• •• • • 30 ~y 32s 2d Peas Oats 76 " 26s OW Rye — 1 9 —s Od Arrivals this week : Wheat 4,143 qrs. Barley Oats Peas , Rapeseed — Beans Linseed NORWICH CATTLE—JULTe. A. large show of store beasts to •day, comprising Scots an& shorthorns, and Irish. Sales were restricted, and we had' a poor attendance. Scots, 4s to 46 Od ; shorthorns, 3s ad to 4s 6d ; Irish, 3s to 3s 6d. Fat beasts, 7s 6d to 8s Od per stone. Sheep—The peas were well filled. —Fat sheep, 7s 6d to 8s 6d per stone, and all sold. COURSE OF EXCHANGE.—YEATERpAY. Amsterdam .. Short. 11 12 11 12/ Ditto Rotterdam — 11 14t 11 14/ Antwerp Brussels — 25 , 10 25 15' Hamburgh - 13 3ir 13 4 Paris Short. 25 6 - 25 12 Ditto Marseilles 25 35 25 40 Frankfort on Maine Vienna Trieste Petersburgh Madrid Cadiz 116 k 116-$ 14 35 14 45 14 35 14 50 33ii' 33 49b 49 49 • 49 _ 10 . Leghorn' — 30 - 0 30 Genoa — 25 77i . . 25 82} Naples Palermo — 4li 411 Mes Fina — , 122 k 123 Lisbon 90 days' date 451 f 123 511 Oporto Rio Janeiro 6O days st. .. New York •• • . E.I CO's Ws. House bls. 60d: Calcutta, Co.'s rupee --- Bombay ditto • --- • • • • Madras ditto • • • • • East India Company's Bills drawn, from the 18th to the 25th June. Bengal 0 0 0 Madras 628 6 8 Bombay £62S 6 8 Foreign Gold in Bars (Standard)....Per oz. £3 17 9 Mexican Dollars „ 0 0 0 Silver in Bars (Standard) „ 0 0 0 LOCAL SHARE MARKETS. LITERP 0 oL—JITLY, 5. There was little business doing in this market to-day, and prices rather steady. Leeds Northern, 44} 45 North British, 55 5f —Great Western of Canada, 15 Sheffields, 36f f—Caledonians, 80i--Lancashire and York shire, 93—London and North-Weste rns, 91, 92— Dut c h Rhenish, 6a adis.—East Lancashire, 92 93—Berwick., 89f—Midlands, 100 1 —Chester and Holyheads, 48 49—• Eastern Counties, 11 F —Grand Trunk of Canada, 9 f•—• i--• Great Western, 55} 56— B lackburn,11 1 — Dovers, 20 Birkenheads, 7 3 i 2. • BIRMINGHAM-41MT b. The market was quiet this morning, with little doing• Birmingham Guaranteed stock, 72—Bristol and Birming ham Six per Cents., 141 —Birmingham Canals, 92i 92—• South Staffords, £lO 16s. 3cl.—Birmingham Gas, 143. LEEDS—JULY 5. North Staffordshire, 131—Sheffields, 36 11-16—Nor• folks, 57k. .. MANCTIESTER ^JULY 5. There was a fair business doing, and prices closed rs ther steady. London and North-Westerns, 91f—Easterx Counties, 11 7-16—Grand Trunks, 9—Midlands, 1001-- Sheffields, 36/ —Caledonians, 801—East Lancashire, 921-' Chester Guaranteed shares, 19I—Ditto, £20,141. BIRTHS. HARDMAN.—On the 4th inst., at Twickenham, the wife of C. A. Hardman, Esq., of a son. MANNING. —On the 2d inst., at Diss Rectory, Norfolk, the wife of the Rev. Charles R. Manning, of a daughter. TALBOT.—On the Ist inst., the lady of John Talbot, Esq., of Mount Talbot, in the county of Roscommon, of a son and heir. TUORNE.—On the lat inst., at Westfield House, Barnes, Surrey, the wife of Benjamin Thorne, Esq., of a son. MARRIAGES. HOP WOOD—KKEDERER.---011 the 2d inst., at St. John's, Hackney, Mr. John Lindsay Hopwood, of 4, St. James's Villas, Albert-road east, Dalston, to Clara Sophia, the daughter of the late Charles A. Krederer, Esq , of 6, Oxford-terrace, Dalston. LILLIE—NuTT.—On the Mule, at Swindon, near Chel tenham, John Edward S.llie, Esq. Bengal C.S., the C. 13., to Cecilia Mary eldest son of Sir John Scott Lillie, eldest daughter of the late Major Justinian Nult, Bom bay Engineers. DEATHS. BnowN.—On the 4th inst., at Dover, W. S. Brown, Esq., aged 83. GOLDING.—On the 3d inst., at East Peckham, Kent, W. Golding, Esq., aged 78. GTBSON.—On the 29th ult., at Hastings the Rev. John E. Gibson, M.A., aged 70. , JACO3I33.—On the 3d inst., suddenly, at St. Marylebone Church, Mr. Jacomb, of 39, Qr ea t Maryleybone •street, aged 60. MALTBY.—On the 3d inst., at his house, in Upper Port land-place, the Right Rev. Edward Maltby, D.D., late Lord Bishop of Durham, aged 90. VOOGHT.—On the 29th ult., Mr. Thomas Vooght, of Higher Humber Farm Bishopsteington, Devon, and late of Charing-cro ss , aged 43. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sue Office, No. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, In the county ei Dl iddlegez,:Wednesday, July I, 1859.