The Sun. — London, England, 1858-07-16 00:00:00

Their plan was a council of eight, holding office for eight years. The plan of this Government was totally different, on a different duty ; the number was increased, they were to be partly nominated and partly elected, with the principle of representation introduced. In the first bill of the present Government the term of office was reduced to six years, but they were now to hold during good behaviour, which was the same as for life. The idea of representation had been entirely abandoned, but the election was retained. The noble earl had rightly stated that the opinion of the house had been strongly expressed on this point. He, for one, would not offer any opposition as to the number; he very much regretted the change. (Hear.) He would leave economy entirely out of the question, but still he could not see why double the salary should be paid for the same work as was now performed by the Court of Directors. The number was in itself objectionable. He would appeal to those of their ordebips who had been members of the Cabinet whe ther, although the members were much occupied with their Parliamentary and departmental duties, the num ber at which Cabinets had now arrived-15 or 16—did not to a certain degree encourage conversation, and tend to place the knowledge and conduct of important busi ness in the hands of fewer members than if the Cabinet consisted of &smaller number? There was one element which ought not to be left out of consideration, that was the likelihood cf being bored. (A laugh.) There was one advanta-te in the Cabinet, viz., that if a man became a bore be could be got rid of, but in the Council he could not. He bad some experience of Indian servants ; they had not the advantage which public men had in this country, but bad passed their lives in very different circumstances, exercising the functions of pro-consuls, and he feared very muoh that in the council they might be tempted to expend their superfluous energy in writirg tong minutes, and however able and intelligent, conduct business in such a way as that the secretary might find it too tire some to attend their meetings, and eventually reduce their functions to a mere sham. With regard to the question of patronage, one great argument against the bill of the late Government was, that their chief desire was to increase their own patronage. How did the case really stand ! With regard to all the home patronage, their bill provided that the Minister could not exercise it without the concurrence of ha;f the council. The first bill of the Government allowed that to stand as to pro motion, bat by this bill all appointments and promotions were vested in the Secretary of State alone. He did not say that this was wrong. Another change had been wade in the bill, with regard to the nomination of the council in India. It was proposed in the bill of the late Government that the nomination of the members should be left to the Governor-General; but it was now pro• posed to give the nomination to the secretary in council. It appeared to him that the disadvantages cf giving the nominatiob to the Governor-General were as nothing compared - to the disadvantages of bringing the nomina• tions over here, where they would necessarily give place to canvassing. (Hear, hear.) He also regretted the change which had been made with respect to the admis sion of the civil servants. With regard to the duties and procedure of the council, he had great difficulty in fol lowing the arrangements which had been made. The Secretary of State was invested with the powers now exercised by the President of the Board of Control and the Court of Directors, and the next clause enabled him to divide the council into committees, and to allot to those committees different parts of the business. He should like to know whether this clause transferred the powers of the council to these committees, or whether they were merely to adjust the matters referred to them and then back to the council. This distinction ought to have been made manifest in the bill. Again, the Seere• tary of State was empowered to act independently of the council in matters of urgency ; but the Secretary of State was the sole judge of urgency, although it was sometimes very difficult to say what was urgent and what was not. He agreed in the propriety of vesting in the Secretary of State the powers of the secret committee. With regard to the expenditure, the late Government in their bill imposed some restrictions, but her Majesty's Government omitted those restrictions altogether. The noble earl shook his head, but he would find that he was right. In the bill, however, as it stood, a change had been made, for not only was a restriction imposed, but it was made far more stringent than in the bill of the late Government, inasmuch as the bill provided that no expenditure could be incurred without the consent of a majority of the council. That constituted the coun cil a House of Commons for the affairs of India, for they could stop the supplies. (Hear, hear.) It appeared to him that this clause rendered nugatory that ether clause which gave the Secretary of State the power of initiation in cases of emergency, because some appro priation of revenue must almost necessarily accompany every exercise of that power. (Hear.) Some of the obj,ctions which had been urged might turn out in prac tice to be of little weight, whilst others that were not now urged might strongly and prominently appear. Bat the whole thing was but an experiment, and ought to be very much regarded in that light, He trusted there was nothing in his remarks which showed a factious tone —(hear, bear, from the ministerial bench)—and on the other hand he was sure that the Government would meet in a fair and proper spirit any reasonable proposi tion which they (the opposition) could offer. He thought that a limit, say of five years, should be given to the du ration of the act. He knew the noble earl would say that it would be inconsistent to appoint a council fur life, and then to limit the operation of the act to five years ; but this bill contained a clause relative to the di-missal of any member of the council with loss of salary or pen sion, which showed that this was a provisional form of government. If any amendment of that kind was intro duced, it should riot necessarily be coueidered as leading to a revision of the whole government of India, but to particular portions of it. There was only one other point to which he would refer—he alluded to the provi sion in the 65th clause respecting the employment of the Indian army out of India, which had been suggested by Mr. Gladstone and adopted by her Majesty's Go vernment. He confessed he felt surprised, both at the suggestion and at its adoption, because he doubted if it was not altogether unconstitutional, as well as unwise, to declare that the executive should not have the power of employing the Indian army out of India, except to repel an actual invasion of the country, or on some urgent necessity. This reminded him of Mr. Pitt's famous order respecting the volunteers, which bad been so much ridiculed, for it was equivalent to say ing, " Come forward, my lads, here is a fine opportunity of serving your country with perfect impunity." (Laugh ter.) With regard to the urgent necessity, he was of opinion that no military operations were justifiable ex cept in case of emergency and urgency. It they were to have an act of Parliament to declare war, and to justify the commencement of military operations, they would probably have an act of Parliament to declare peace, and in this way the important prerogative of the sove reign would be taken out of the hands of the Crown. (Hear.) The noble earl signified that he would intro duce an amendment he the purpose of removing the constitutional objection, but unless the noble earl was prepared to modify the clause to a greater extent than that he shonld feel it to be his duty to move the rejec tion of the clause altogether. These were the objections be felt to the measure. He hoped the result, at all event., would be to pass such a bill for - Indite as would be not only for the advantage of this country, but for the benefit of their fellow-subjects in India. (Hear, hear.) The E irl of ELLENBOROUGH said that his noble friend expressed a regret that it hail not fallen to his lot as a Minister of the Crown to ask their lordships to agree to a measure for the government of India. But he could not have asked their lordships to agree to any measure in which a portion of the Council of the Minister of India was not elec'oed by popular election. Neither could he a.k their lordships to agree to any pro position in favour of a o impetitive examination for the engineers and artillery of the Indian army, which were two of the noblest corps connected with any military service, and whose recent deeds only added to a reputation which was already diffused throughout the world. (Hear, hear.) Tha officers of these services were already chosen by competitive examination from the young gentlemen educated at Addiscombe. It might be possible, and even desirable, to erect another estab lishment or to extend Addiscombe, but there was this great advantage connected with the present system, that they were not exposed to the risk of having persons forced upon them who were merely crammed for a special examination, whilst they were sure of having persons who had received a really solid education in a military point of view. When he looked at the present moment to the names of those men who illustrated their arms in India—to Sir John Lawrence, to Sir Archdale Wilson, to Eyre, to Tombs, and to others who had been brought up and educated under the present system—to propose now to alter that system which had produced men or such distinction seemed to him to be a most unnecessary and gratuitous act, and a truckling to a temporary feel ing which existed elsewhere which he could have hardly supposed it possible any Government could have acceded to. (Hear, hear.) The bill:now before their lordships differed in principle from both the bills which had pre• ceded, and he considered it to be the bill of the House of Commons rather than the bill of the Government. (Hear.) The House of Commons was determined to pass this year a bill for India, and they bad certain ob jects in view. They had the object of putting an end to the East India Company, of putting au end to the double government, of having one sole responsible officer who was to be entrusted with the government of India. They were desirous also—and he wished they had oenfined themselves to this—of substituting the name of tbe Queen for that of the East Indite Company in the government of India. They put an end altogether to the Court of Proprietors at:d the Court of Proprietors, be must say, justly deserved that punishment, for they bad not acted under a sense cf moral responsibility in the execution of their duties. (Hear) He saw himself that, on two occasions, when the Court of Proprietors had met to discuss this very measure which was intended to extingu ish themselves, the court was c oun t e d out, there being only seven persons present. (Hear, bear.) That was an abdication on their part, and they had no right to ask others to defend them when they showed such lake-warmness in defending themselves. (Hear.) But they always looked to the Court of Direc tors as being the East India Company, and their con nexion with the government of India was not only not put an end to but was perpetuated under this bill. (Hear , hear.) At present the Court of Proprietor s elected 12 out of the 18 directors, but under this bill the Court of Directors were empowered to elect seven members of the new council from their own body, and the government, in the exercise of their responsibility, must name at least on the part of the Crown, three of the other members of that court, so that ten at least, in the first instance of the new council, would be members rf.the present court. it was said that one-half of the future nominations should exi-t in the Crown, and the other half in the council. If the first person who died was a nominee of the Crown, the C row n gained nethive, and if the next member who) died was also a Dominee of the Crown, the council having THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, JULY l6, 1858, had expressed himself so clearly on the question under discussion, that he felt himself relieved from the neces sity of saying much upon it. The great object which he conceived would be gained by the bill was the removal of the principle of the double Government, which had hitherto acted so prejudicially in eur Indian affairs ; but admitting that to be its object, he was not satisfied that it was attained. Ile considered that the council would still act as a shield against responsibility, divert ing it from the Minister, and assisting him in nothing. It was, in fact, a revival of the Court of Directors, under another name, and in a different form. He complained of the number of the council being fifteen, and said that they were creating so marry sinecure places. There were other parts of the bill to which he entertained great ob jection, but he would refer to them in detail, in com mittee. He contended that they ought not to disturb the present system of examination for the artillery in India. If this bill became law in its present shape, not many years would pass before many of its provisions would have to be altered. The Earl of ALBEMARLE said there was nothing in the bill to get rid of the extravagance as regarded the finances of India, of which they had so frequently com plained. They had squeezed 20 millions out of the people of India, and they must either give up that country or maintain it by disbursements from the national treasury. Tho Earl of DERBY said that as he proposed to go into committee on the bill to-morrow, he would refrain from saying anything in reply to the observations that had been made on the measure until that occasion. The bill was read a second time, and was ordered to be committed to-morrow. The following bills were read a third time and passed —Universities and College Estates Bill ; Confirmation of Executors, Ike., Bill ; Stanhope and Wolsingbam Rectories Bill ; Ecclesiastical Corporation Leasing Bill; Encumbered Estates (West Indies) Amendment Bill. The following bills were read a second time—Sale and Transfer of Land (Ireland) Bill ; Navigation Advances (Ireland) Bill ; Prescriptions (Ireland) Bill. The Joint Stock Banking Companies Bill passed through committee. The house adjourned at eight o'clock ROUSE OF COMMONS—( ESTERDAY.) ARMY SUBALTERNS. • Col. FREESTUN asked the Chancellor of the Ex chequer if ho would be pleased to grant him a day to bring on his motion respecting the subalterns of the army, which he had been for the lost four months en deavouring to effect ? The CHANCELLOR cf the EXCHEQUER could not then give a decided answer, but would remember the question. to the Clerk of Petty Sessions Bill, he had consulted the highest authority, asd found that if he moved the preli minary resolution in committee of the whole house, and supposing that resolution was carried, they recommitted the bill and introduced a clause founded on that resolu- ion, it would be sufficient, and he would, therefore, now give notice to that effect. THE PURIFICATION OF THE THAMES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I took ,be liberty of moving tbat the orders of the day be post• poned in order that I might bring under the attention of the house a bill, the object of which is to purify the river Thames. The condition of the waters of that river has fallen upon the inhabitants of this metropolis as an unexpected calamity ; but I believe there has always been a minority in the community which has expected the catastrophe that has recently occurred ; and I find that several years back, when this house, in pursuit of health, determined that the sewage of the metropolis should be diverted to the waters of the Thames, there were some persons of great authority on such matters who foresaw the consequences of that measure. All that they then predicted has been more than fulfilled. That noble river, which was long the pride and joy of English• men, which has hitherto been associated with the noblest feats of our commerce and the most beautiful passages of our poetry, has really become a Stygian pool, reeking with inevitable and intolerable horrors. The public health is at stake ; almo9t all living things that exited in the waters of the Thames have disappeared or been destroyed ; a very natural fear has arisen that living beings upon its banks may share the same fate ; there is a pervading apprehension of pestilence in this great city ; and I am cure I am only taking a step that will have been anticipated when I ask for leave to introduce a bill which will attempt—and I trust the attempt will be successful—to terminate a state of affairs so unsatis factory and so dangerous. (Hear, hear.) The question arises,--e" If this be your object, what is the quarter from which a remedy is to be provided ! Where are we to find the means, and where the machinery, for attaining these remedial results V' In fact, the question at once arises, which has been asked by everybody in this city during the last few weeks—" Is this a local or a national business ?" (Hear, hear.) Now, at the first glance it certainly does appear that the inhabitants of a city should be responsible for the purity of the river that washes its walls ; but then it is urged, and no doubt with considerable force, that the position of the city of London is of a very peculiar character. It is not merely a city in her Majesty's dominions, but it is the metropolis of her Majesty's dominions. It is a city of paramount importance. It is said that here the Court is present ; here the Parliament holds its sit tings ; here are the halls of justice ; here is the centre of administration ; and upon these grounds it is alleged that in a city which inclndes so many national interests, and where so many national institutions exist, the incon veniencies which are experienced should be remedied at the national expense. It is alleged, however, on the other hand, that the very circumstances which are ad duced to substantiate a claim on behalf of this afflicted metropolis to assistance from the national resources tend—when impartially considered—to a directly oppo site conclusion ; because it is said with equal plausibility that the very facts that the Sovereign, the Legislature, the courts of justice, and the centre of administration are to be found in this city, show that they have greatly contributed to the importance and prosperity of the nee tropolis, and that if not the principal, they are, at least, among the chief causes of the splendour and power of the city of London, Under these circumstances, one is naturally inclined to ask—Are we, or are we not, to trust to that municipal principle which is so often eulo gized in this house, and of which we are all so proud, as one of the principal characteristics of our constitution ? What is the value of this municipal principle if it is limited in its application ? Ought it to be so limited ? If it is the duty of a population of 300,000 to cleanse their streets and clear their river, why should not such a duty be equally imperative upon a population which may be counted by millions? (Hear, hear.) What be comes of that admirable self-government, that system of local administration of which we are all so proud, to which we appeal so frequently in our legislation, and in the influence and efficiency of which we have so much confidence, if when a great trial like the present arrives we abandon as defective the system of local administrm tion, and we admit the inefficiency of the municipal prin. &pie ; giving up all hope of relief from such sources, and declaring that this is a case which must be taken up by the nation, and which must be met by the aggregate resources of the people of this country. Her Majesty's Government having considered this question without prejudice, and with the utmost anxiety to submit to the house a proposition which would be adequate to the occasion, are of opinion that this is an instance which must be met by local resources. (Cheers.) The object is to remedy or diminish a local inconvenience, and in their opinion means for applying a competent remedy should be provided from local resources. I need scat cely remind the house that, with the exception of a very small portion of the metropolis, which has been under the control of an ancient and celebrated airport Lion, the municipal administration of this great city cf London—a city, cot only the most extensive of modern times, but greater than any ancient cities of which we have authentic records—is still really in its infancy. In the disagreeable and difficult position in which the in habitants of the metropolis have found themselves during the last six or eight weeks, they have naturally con trasted the enormous re' ent of the evils with which they had to contend with the feebleness of the municipal machinery by which only a remedy could be provided. We have looked into that question. We have exetnined the conduct of that Metropolitan Board of Works which, not much more than two years ago, was instituted by Parliament to constitute the powerful and efficient municipality of this great city. That body has, how ever, beyond all question, not hitherto proved itself to be very effective in carrying out those works which come within its control. (Hear, hear.) It must at the same time be borne in mind that the period of its existence has as yet been brief, and that although the Legislators has committed to its hands the performance of import ant duties, we have not combined with those duties the power adequate to their due discharge. (Hear, hear.) I cannot but feel that I have no se given a fair and impartial summary of the position in which the Metropolitan Board of Works has been placed by Parliament. (Hear, bear.) Well, the question then arises, can we invest that bodi—Which cccupies the in fluential position of the municipality of this metropolis, and which i-, as a consequence, the body to which we ought to appeal in 'those instances in which we seek that every grievance connected with the metropolis should be remedied—with powers adequate to the accomplishment of that great work which we are all so anxious to promote ? You will, general'y spcetk ing, find the corporation of a great city like London — the capital of an ancient kingdom—in possession of con siderable estates, and when under those circumstances a large and unexpected demand upon its resources and energies arises, it has the means of raising the funds necessary for the performance of the work which it may be called upon to execute. We haie, however, in the present instance to deal with a corporation which has great dtmies to discharge, and which nominally is in tru tea with great powzrs for the put pose, but which reality is almost completely denuded of all mean? of raising a considerable sum of money. In theory, it is true, its members have the power to avail themselves cf large resources. They possess the power of rating, and of rating, I believe, to an unlimited extent, the inhabh tants of those districts the affairs of which they admihee ter. The house must, however, on reflection perceive that nothing is more illusory than a rate, and nothing more unsatisfactory, no matter how liberal the language used by the Legislature may be, than a rating power whenever a large amount is sought to be obtained. (Hear, hear.) A corporation being called upon to invest capital to a considerable extent in pub lic wor k s ver y na turally does not anticipate that it is to be furnished with that capital out of its income. If, indeed, i.t should happen to be in possession of large estates it might raise the necessary sum cf money at a moderate rate of in terest ; but in dealing with a simple power of rating you must bear in mind tbat the rate exists only for a singli year, and that therefore it constitutes , practicallyspeak ing, a security upon which no per: on would be disposed to make any considerable advances. (Hear.) When, therefore, a rate is the only security which you have to offer you are in this position, that you can procure only a small sum of money, and that too at a high rate of interest—a result which would by no means meet the exigencies of the case with which we have this evening to deal. (Hear, hear.) Now, the Metropolitan Board of Works have, I am bound to say, given to the ques tion of the purification of the Thames and thernam drain age of the metropolis very careful consideration. They have employed in the investigation of the subject a long period of time. They have availed themselves of the knowledge, the science, and the practical experience of the high es t au th or iti es . They have arrived , too , at re sults with res p ec t t o the subject in the accomp l ishment of which they place the most complete confidence. They in no way shrink from the responsibility of end, avouricg to effect an object which we all have s o much at h e a r t, and which it will c e rt a inly become their paramount daty to use every means in their power to attain, provid e d Parliament will only place,thinn in a position in which the remedies which they have in contemplation may be effectually brought into action. (Hear.) Now, theex penditure which it would be necessary to incur in order to secure that end—in order to clear our river and to complete the main drainage of the city—is estimated at a considerable amount. It cannot, indeed, be computed at much less than 3,000,0001. ; and now comes the question, how is that expenditure to be met ? In reply to that question I have to state, in the first instance, that her Majesty's Government propose, for the consi deration and, as I trust, fur the final adoption of the house the following scheme. We propose to take steps by means of which this new corporation to which I have referred should find itself in the possession of a eoveider- able income—l shall not say of a permanent, but at all events not of a transient character—(hear, hear)—that, in other words, it should have an income at its command for a considerable number of years which will enable it to effect all those objects which we now seek to accom plish. (Hear, hear,) In order to carry cut those views we propose that Parliament should interfere and impose a rate on the inhabitants of the metropolis, which shall form a special rate, for the purpose of purifying the river and completing the main drainage of the city—(bear, hear)—a rate which shall be confined to the promotion of those objects only, and which shall be denominated in legislation and practice "the main sewage rate of the metropolis." (Hear, hear.) We propose that it should be, both as regards its amount and the duration of the period of its imposition, a tax which should effect these two objects—namely, that it should supply the necessary funds for the accomplishment of the great work which I have mentioned—the cost of which, as I said before, ws cannot estimate at a less sum than 3,000,0001.—and that it should furnish a basis upon which engagements might be entered into, conditions subscribed, and regulations made under the direction of competent authorities—to whom I shall subsequently more particularly refer--by means of which at the ex piration of the period during which the rate may be levied—a sinking fund having been in simultaneous action—the complete extinction of the whole of the debt which may he contracted for the attainment of the end which we have in view might take place. (Hear.) If that result can be brought about it will. in our opinion, be found to furnish a satisfactory solution of the finan cial part of the question. (Cheers.) Now, we are in formed, and I have documents before rue which afford evidence of the justice of the calculation, that a rate of not more than 34. in the pound, levied for a term of 40 years, will be sufficient to provide funds for the comple tion of the whole of the main drainage of the metropolis, and at the same time to furnish a sinking fund which at the end of that period will enable the Metropolitan Board of Works to liquidate the debt which they shall have incurred in order to carry this scheme into execution. (Hear.) That this result may be arrived at, an appeal-- and to my mind an appeal of a most legitimate character —has been made to her Majesty's Government for assist ance. It is not an appeal made on behalf of the Metro politan Board of Works to aid them by an advance of the public money or by means of a tax to be levied upon the community generally in meeting any por tion of an expenditure which, elthough considerable in amount, is still of a local nature. (Hear, hear.) They simply ask 119 to assist them, as we have been in the habit of assisting the prosecutors of public works in almost every portion of the kingdom. (Hear.) The house cannot fail to be aware that there is a machinery in existence through the medium of which pecuniary aid is extended at a moderate rate of interest, for the purpose of promoting public enterprises, such for instance as the building of bridges, gaols, and other public institutions, and which also provides the mode in which those advances should be repaid. The establishment through whose agency this is effected is known under the name of the Exchequer -bills Loan Commissioners Advances; but its powers, I may add, are of too limited a character to enable us to avail ourselves of its interference in the present in stance. We propose, however, to attain the end at which we aim by means of a machinery, if not of a precisely similar, at all events of an analogous character. The house will perceive that if we invest the Metropolitan Board of Works with the power of levying a rate of 3d. for a period of 40 years, which would amount to about 140,800/. per annum, they would then be in the possession of a consider able, though not altogether permanent income, and would have it in their power to raise money. Bat acother diffi culty arises then. Most of those institutions in this metro polis which have largo amounts of capital at their disposal are prevented, either by bye-laws or by conditions in their deeds of incorporation and settlement, from lending their capital except upon real secnrities or upon the security of the public funds. Therefore, they could not lend money to the Metropolitan Board of Works, even if it be endowed 'with the power of raising 140,0031. a-year for 40 years, and even if they would be satisfied with such secu rity. What we propose is that the Government would guarantee the principal and interest of the sums which the Metropolitan Board of Works may wish to raise for the fulfilment of the task imposed upon them upon certain conditions. We propose that the Government should guarantee capital and interest as to the sum of 3,000,0001., provided the Metropolitan Board of Works causes this revenue of 140,000/. a-year for forty years, subject to conditions which are contained in this bill, which will place the financial operation under the control .of the ' Treasury, by which means we shall ' secure not only the payment of the interest, but also the regular operation of the sinking fund. We propose that we should guarantee these advances up to 3,00,000/. during a term necessary for the construction of the works, at a rate of interest not exceeding 4 per cent., and thus the 140,0001. per annum to be raised will not only pay the interest upon the 3,000,00 N., but will pro bably leave the debt incurred by the corporation entirely liquidated. It is possible, indeed, that the Government may not be called upon for a single shilling, for with such a guarantee, there will be no difficulty in the way of the Metropolitan Board of Works raising the money. (ITear.) By these means the Metropolitan Board of Works will find themselves in possession of a sufficient and adequate in come, not only for the construction of all works connected with the main drainage of the metropolis, but also for a sinking fund which at the end of the term will have li quidated all advances. Such is the outline of the plan we proeose. Her Majesty's Government having now placed the Metropolitan Board of Works in an efficient position as regards finance--if this scheme be sanctioned by the house—had next to consider what should be their course as to the construction of the works themselves. (I-Tear. hear.) After having given the subject all the consideration which its importance demands—and I assure the house with no desire of shrinking from responsibility—we are of opinion that it would be the wisest course, if our plan bo adopted, to leave the Metropolitan Board of Works in perfect free dom as regards the construction of the works. We shall therefore propose that all the regulations contained in the original bill constituting the local government of the me tropolis, which require that under certain circumstances it should bo incumbent upon the Metropolitan Board of Works to apply for the sanction of the First Commissioner of Works, and under other circumstances to ask for the s td a hu n mThee c tb t ri i ie.ol o il: nof Parliament, shall be entirely repealed. (Hear, hear.) We propose to give to that body ample and ade quate means for the fulfilment of the duties imposed upon them, and we also propose that they should be left in the full enjoyment of freedom and of that responsibility resulting from the position in which wo desire to place them The bill provides that the works shall be com pleted in 5,t, years—that is, by the end of 1861, and dur ing that period the adVances will be repaid. I anticipate, as far as I can at present form any opinion, that upon the whole we may reckon that 600,000/. per annum, or 300,0001. every six months, will probably be required to carry on these works. I believe I have now laid before the house a general outline of the scheme which we intend to moonl it) a vn enpniocelrntttsonf for me mr butliea n m ot Pa w rliament. eraTo e h n t e de r or e tua a l e os nant whathd e bill ai wouldrl l e p many ro n,enr c t l s a bu u eb s j,..,eesocnot con venient n for consideration in committee. The house will have to de cide whether the course which we have taken is upon the whole the most prudent that could be devised, and at the same time a !equate to the conjuncture. What of e have sought to do is to make the Metropolitan Board_ responsibility which without oaui aid s unshackled cannot be expected unless we leave it perfectl y ende to and untrammelled. (Hear, hear.) We have . n a f non : e do a sn l i_y e t corporation—(hear) power,o p n o ( r i a. o ti but i n t — twr ( ei l i st ehpaorn)-s sufficient-btioi responsibility —a invest it i e t pr: with n d t o s u s f n i t t ct of Parliament in arliament to sanction s d aprude nt considerre resources °e t et : t:' l7e ws a local o r reconcile trenchingc what, cil a fi the tne naylld, ev orattainmentocannpnoo of t t h hb e o s i _n e t r tomioarnfltehi'n'eodn'.-PUdin.easury we have done e house will conclude that it is I have now plac L e ' a w n o y r work, interference r o a ns thesve r pg . e ea c ir o a. that, as this measure, and I ask for house the general feature bill to under ag a point t h e of order, irrdceurs submittedanc , in h its leave to introduce a purify the Thames, and to suchso application cuans iesson thatoafwmilt' tt power. rhuest th before th e a legitimate and, provide for the main drainage of the metropolis. (Hear.) cr ° ohn E o t no , B l i tj d ne C b d i s C p p ' o r w oc e o r l s o f d or by t a a xin re g so t l h a e ti c o o n u . ntry, its intro at there was anything in the bill levying a tax CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not aware upon the country. (Hear, hear.) The character of the bill went to show that the Imperial resources were not to be applied to this work. Mr. WILSON said the rule teas that if a bill authorised the contraction or the guarantee of any loan there must be a preliminary resolution. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted that a main feature of the bill was to guarantee the prin cipal a nd interest of the money to be raised. The SPEA.KER sail he was not aware of the form of the bill, but unquestionably if its main feature was to give a guarantee from the public resources, or anything that might by any possibility entail a tax upon the public, it must be preceded by a preliminary resolution. The CHA.NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER feared ho could not move a resolution at once. Mr. WILSON referred to the rale which required the lapse of at least one day between each stage of a money bill. hat s every clauses T I h o r e dtso theAm L A I Ku E F7 R Ra Su repeatedTt e N and gentleman should bring in his bill without the clauses re lating containinggbl e t e d h c o le n d afterwards. (Hear, hear.) pro visions which did, or by possibility might, entail taxation upon the country must bs pi ece led by a resolution. There Ihi b sa i et l tchoeal were many precedents in which clauses of that nature were moved in committee of the whole house, but, not knowing the exact form in which the bill was drawn, it was difficult for him to decide at once upon the point now raised. Mr. GLADSTONE said that in 1843 a case occurred the decision in which established two points—first, that a bill for merely metropolitan taxation must be preceded by a resolution of the whole house ; and, secondly, that the same proceeding was necessary, although the tax should be purely incidental and beside the main object of the bill. Upon the third reading, or some other very late stage of theroalwhippere' Bill, the present Sir B. Hawes, who was one of its fiercest opponents, objected that as a sum of I,COO/. which was to be raised to enable the corporation to put pens, ink, and paper in the Coalwhippers'-office, was secured upon the coal duties, it might lead to their continuance for one day longer than would otherwise be necessary—that there would be a tax, and that therefore the bill ought to have been preceded by and founded upon a resolution of the whole house. That point wag submitted to the Speaker and to the law officers of the Crown ; and upon consideration Mr. Speaker Lefevre hold that the pro visions of the bill for raising this 1,0331• would not enable the authorities to continue the coal duties for a single hour, and that therefore the bill might proceed. At the same time he stated that, had the reverse been the case, the ob jection would have been fatal to the measure. Mr. WALPOLE submitted that in this instance the bill might be introduced without the clauses relating to money, which might be added to it after being passed through a preliminary committee of the whole house. Mr. AYRTON suggested that the same object might bo attained by introducing two bills, —one to extend the powers of the Metropolitan Board of 000 Works, and the other to provide for the raising of the 3 , 000,/. The SPEAKER said that the standing order which re ferred to the introduction of bills by means of a prelimi nary committee was, " That no bill relating to religion or tram', or the alteration of the laws c oncerning religion or trade, be brought into this lioire until the proposition shall have been first considered in a committee of the whole house, and agreed unto by the house." It was impossible to say that this was a bill relating to trade or religion, be cause it referred to the main drainage of the metropolis. It was his impression that if the cleueee referring to the raising of the money were guarded by being passed through a preliminary committee of the whole house all that was required by the forms of the house would be accomplished. Mr. WILSON called attention to another standing order, of the 29th of March, 1707, which provided, " That this house will not proceed upon any petition, motion, or bill for granting any money, or for releasing or compounding any sum of money owing to the Crown, but in committee of the whole house." That had been held to involve all questions of guarantee or what ever might become a charge upon the Consolidated Fund. The SPEAKER then put the question " That leave be given to bring in a bill for the main drainage of the metro- Mr. W. WILLIAMS said, that the inhabitants of the metropolis would receive with great satisfaction the state ment which had been made by the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, and the prinniples upon which he proposed to deal with this subject. On behalf of his constituents and on his own he thanked the right hon. gentleman and the Go- vernment for the course whieh they had taken. Mr. AYRTON had also listened with the utmost satis faction to the announcement of the right hon. gentleman ; but he must give the right hon. gentleman warning that between this and the next session he must b 3 prepared to frame a comprehensive scheme, reviewing the whole system upon which the metropolis was taxed. If the metropolis had no claim for aid upon the national resources, it was equally true that the national exchequer had no claim upon the local resources of the metropolis. On grounds of public tranquillity, considering the great number of the popula tion of the metropolis, he urged upon the Government the necessity of giving to the metropolis a real measure of municipal government. (Hoar.) Mr. LOCKE regarded the bill of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as the play of "Hamlet" with the part of Hamlet left out. The bill was understood to be one for the purification of the river Thames, but not one word had been said upon that subject, and he thought that the Go vernment ought to have announced that there was a plan proposed either by the Board of Works or by the Govern ment which the Government would recommend to the adoption of the house. All that the right honours able gentleman had said was, that he left the subject entirey to the Board of Works. Ho (Mr. Locke) had, ' however, no confidence in that body ; and ail that the Government proposed to do was to give in creased facilities to that body. In addition to this, he contended that the sum of three millions proposed to be raised under the powers of this bill, would not be sufficient for carrying out effectually the works which were neces sary for the purification of the river. The Beard of Works proposed to carry the sewage down to a point which would not relieve the metropolis of the nuisance which was sought to be removed. The bill in reality meant nothing; nobody understood it, and the only thing that was clear was that the Government would place implicit confidence in a board which had hitherto done nothing. Mr. BYNG tendered his best thanks to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government for having done their best to grapple with the most important subject that could occupy the attention of Parliament at the present time. Ile thought, however, that the Government ought to have kept in their hands the veto upon any measure which might be proposed by the Board of Works. He thought that the house ought to have had some informa tion respecting the nature of the plan which the Board of Works was about to adopt. Among other things which he would recommend was that the Government offices in the metropolis should bear their fair share of the taxation which would be necessary to carry out the plans contem plated by the present bill. Mr. KEN DALL objected to the Government guarantee ing 3,000,0001. before any specific plan had been agreed on, that of the Metropolitan Board of Works having been dis approved of by the most eminent engineers, who believed that if the sewage were carried to Barking it would be floated back again to the metropolis. But oven if they succeeded in carrying off the sewage waters he wanted to know what was to be done with the mud banks ; and, further, he wished to be informed what was to be done during the five or six years that m. st elapse before the works could be completed. Sir B. HALL described what had occurred between him and the Metropolitan Board of Works when he was First Commissioner of Works, and went on to state that Captain Burstall, who was employed to report on the subject, had stated that the sewage could be discharged without float ing back to the metropolis at a point one mile above Erith on the south side and at a corresponding point of distance on the north. The Metropolitan Board resclvod to adopt a plan based on the principle laid down by Captain Bnr stall, and transmitted that plan to him as First Commis sioner. He submitted it to three eminent engineers, — Mr. Simpson, Mr. Blackwell, and Captain Galtone—who disapproved the plan, and suggested another of their own. This plan was sent to the Metropolitan Board ; and he un derstood the plan now adopted by the Board was founded on Captain Burstall's scheme, altered in some respects by two referees. Although the right hon. gentleman had not mentioned this in his statement, he believed the Govern ment had already to a great extent approved a plan and wore prepared to sanction a very material alteration in that part of the Act of 1855 which determined that the outfall of the drainage should not be at a point near the metropolis. The point of outfall proposed was, he believed, on the south two miles higher up the river, and on the north three miles higher up ; and he thought some explana tion on this subject was called for from the Government. (Hear.) Into the details of the plan submitted he would not go, but he approved entirely the principle that they should entertain none of the absurd projects submitted to the committee upstairs, bet should have the work carried out by means of intercepting see Cl'4 to remove the drain age out of the metropolitan area. The real question was, what was the nearest point at which the outfall should be fixed? And on this most important question ho hoped the Government would propose proper s deguaeds, so that the metropolis should not be polluted by the reflux of sewage matter. (Hear.) Although, too, the principle of intercep tion was one which, above all others, ought to be adopted in any scheme for the main drainage of the metropolis, yet he did not think that mere interception would carry out all that was absolutely desirable. lie entertained a strong opinion that some day or other a much greater work must be undertaken, one which could not b, borne by the metro polis only—he meant the embankment of the Thames. (Cheers.) Every civil engineer who hail investigated the subject arrived at the same conclusion, and believed that this was the only way in which to prevent the exhalations which otherwise would constantly arise from the river banks. (Hear, hear.) As regarded local taxation, the me tropolis was in a peculiar position on this point. To a cer tain extent it possessed municipal institutions ; certain boards possessed certain corporate powers ; but in point of fact, they bore no analogy whatever to corporate Isociies existing in other parts of the empire. The hon. member (Mr. Ayrton) said the metropolitan taxation was 400,0001. a-year, but it really amounted to much more. That cal culation did not include the inetage of corn and other ar ticles, which was at present swallowed up by the City corporation. Now, if those powers of levying taxes were extended over the whole metropolis and the proceeds ex pended I,r the benefit of the metropolitan area generally, he believed there would be no reason to complain. As to the means proposed for providing the necessary funds, the 141st section of his bill in 1855, when first introduced, contained the same special provision as that now suggested by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. (Hear, hear.) Re specting the provision by which the approval of the First Commissioner of Works was rendered necessary in certain cases, it would have been a great gratification to him if that duty had not been imposed upon him. It was a very troublesome one, and the noble lord his successor in office, was no doubt glad to get rid of it. (Hear, and a laugh.) Lord J. MANNERS said his right hon. friend in intro ducing the bill had contented himself with an exposition of the general principles on which he thought such legislation ought to be founded, and wisely so, because, unless the house arrived at a distinct conclusion as to the general principle which should guide the relations between the Government and the municipality of this great city, it was in vain to come to Parliament with plans either for drain - ing London or embanking the Thames. (Hear, hear.) This general principle was [that those who had to pay for works should be at liberty to decide what those works were to be—(heer, hear) —a principle embodied in the homely proverb that, " He who pays the fiddler has a right to call the tune." (Hear.) The right hon. baronet (Sir B. Hall) was jealous, and perhaps naturally so, lest any altera tion should be made by the Board of Works in the point of outfall as specified in the act of 1855. Now, he was sure his lion. friend (Hr. Kendall) the chairman of the Thames Committee would bear him out in saying that if one thing was m .re clearly established than any other in the course of the investigation it was, that you could not arrive at anything like a conclusion as to the point at which sewage matter thrown into the Thames would not return again to the metropolis. (Hear.) lie thought some disposition had been manifested during the debate to bring under the no tice of the house all the schemes which had been proposed, or which might be proposed, on this subject, with the view of asking the house to declare its opinion upon such schemes. It must, however, bo evident to those who had paid any attention to the investigation of the select com mittee, that it was utterly impossible for gentlemen who did not possess professional and practical knowledge and experience to form ally sound conclusion as to the point of outfall at which the sewage might be thrown into the river with the eel tainty that it would not return to the metropolis. For his own part ho must decline the respon sibility of expressing any opinion on the subject. The right hon. gentleman had asked what security would be taken that, whatever points of outfall might be fixed upon by the Metropolitan Boar,l of Work, no nuisance should be created. The point of outfall which had been suggested was Barking Creek, but if any point nearer to the metro polis was fixed upon it had been determined that the sew age should be deodorised before it woes dischtirged into the river. The hon. chairman of the committee who had investigated this subject seemed to think that her Ma jesty's Government ought, before introducing this bill, to have .satisfied themselves what plan the Metropolitan Bused of Works intended to adopt ; but it was impossible for any Government to satisfy their minds as to arrange ments which required the greatest amount of profes sional skill and intelligence, and with regard to which there was a wide difference of opinion among those who were best qualified to deal with such questions. It would be remem bered that, in the course of the investigation before the committee, statements were made with respect to other great cities besides London. It appeared that Glasgow hail found itself in almost—if not quite— as evil a plight with regard to the Clyde as that of the metropolis with respect to the Thames ; but he did not find that the Government were asked to dictate to the Corporation of Glasgow in what manner they should deal with the Clyde. The Corporation of Glasgow had availed themselves of the highest engineering and chemical assistance they could obtain, with the view of purifying the Clyde, and abating the nuisance —(hear, hear)—and the e x p ense had been defrayed by th e people of Glasgow. (Hear, hear.) The principle of the bill which his right hon. friend asked leave to introduce was in direct accordance with this view, for it did not propose to direct in what manner the great works which were requisite should be carried out. The hon. member for Southwark had asked who were the persons to whom these extensive powers were to be intrusted. They were the representatives of the People, elected for the purpose of local administration —(hear, hear)—and her Majesty's Government were of opinion that they could not better discharge their duty than by leaving the settlement of this question with those who, for all local purposes, unquestionably re presented the metropolitan community. (Hear, hear.) That was the principle upon which this bill was based, and he believed it to be a sound principle. When he was last in office he had had the satisfaction of settling the interment question upon the same principle—viz., that of giving to the municipal authorities the power of taking such measures as they deemed most advisable for remedying a serious and growing evil. The hon. chairman of the committee had asked what temporary palliatives for the existing nuisance would be adopted before the great works which were requi site could be undertaken and rendered effective. The hon. member would find that the bill contained a clause giving full power to the Metropolitan Board of Works to adopt in the interval such measures as they might deem necessary for the temporary mitigation of the existing nuisance. Hon. gentlemen would find, when the bill was in their hands, that it had been most carefully and skilfully framed, and that while on the one hand the country would be spared the expenditure of a single shilling for the remedy of the existing evils, on the other hand the metropolis would have th credit and glory of removing, at its own expense, an acknowledged nuisance, in a manner entirely consistent with the habits and customs of this old-fashioned Anglo-Saxon community. Mr. WILSON thought the best and most economical plan would be for her Majesty's Government to make a loan for this specific purpose and advance it at specified times as it was required, through the Exchequer Loan Commissioners, who had a perfect machinery for conduct. ing such business. By the proposed plan of her Majesty's Government they would have to introduce a new machi . . nery into the Treasury department, which he thought ob jectionable. Mr. J. T. NORRIS considered responsibility in this un dertaking should devolve on the executive body who would have to carry out the works. He defended the Me _ ___ . .. tropolitan Board of Works from the charges of incapacity that had been brought against them, and corrected an error with reference to the cost of the proposed site for the erec tion of their offices. Instead of 40,0001., as bad been stated, the purchase money for Berkeleyhouse, Spring gardens, was only .15,00)1. The Metropolitan Board of Works were perfectly capable of carrying out these works. Mr. TITE said that if the sewage was deodorised, it would make no difference where it went into the river He had some misgivings that when the heavy expenses of the undertaking were felt by the ratepayers, attempts would be male to check its progress. but he hoped provi sions would be introdiced into the bill to prevent it. The Metropolitan Board of Works had considered this subject with great diligence and skill, yet he was astonished to final, a few weeks since, that they had postponed its, fur ther c )nsideration till October next, and that led him to think that if a few were selected out of the present body, and presided over by the chairman, it would be a more manageable body for carrying out these works. He con gratulated the people of the metropolis on the probability of the grievous nuisance they had had to complain of being speedily got rid of. Sir J. SHELLEY expressed his gratification at the in troduction of the bill. All the Metropolitan Board of Works had required all along was a Government guaran tee, and bad it been given earlier he had no doubt they would have commenced these works some time ago. Be thought, however, that the late Government did light in refusing their asssent to the first plans that were submitted to them. He was anxious to see the work begun, feeling convinced that many objections to the scheme now before the Metropolitan Board of Works might be got rid of in the course of construction, and there was nothing in the bill to prevent the works being extended to Sea Reach hereafter, if it were found necessary. Mr. STEPHENSON, having expressed his opinion that the plan laid before the late Commissioners of Sewers by, Mr. Bazelgette for the drainage of the metropolis was the best, and having eulogised the general engineering ability of that gentleman on all matters connected with sewage, said ho thought the house was labouring under an error on the question of outfall. Those who differed most widely on the subject were agreed that, provided the intercepting system were adopted, it was a matter of perfect indifference whe ther Barking Creek or Sea Reach were the point of feudal,. He suggested that the adoption of the interception system should be made imperative. (Hear, hear.) It was the most comprehensive plan ; it was calculated to be the most per manent, and he was sure that if it, were partially carried out next year it would produce a most beneficial effect on the river. It was, in his opinion, essential that that system should be expeditiously commenced and vigorously carried out; for it possessed this advantage, which was exclusively its own, that every step that was taken would improve the condition of the river. (Hear, hear.) Col. SYKES expressed his regret that a more compre hensive plan had not been decided on, and one that would have taken in the embankment of the Thames. After some remarks from Sir J. SHELLEY, General CODIIINGTON said the moat important part of the question was the outlet. Care should be taken in removing a nuisance from one place that they did not in flict it on another locality. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQVER—I think that I may congratulate the inhabitants of the metropolis upon the manner in which, g enerally speaking, the proposi tion of the Government has been received. So far as we are concerned the measure is chiefly of a financial character, and I cannot say that I regret that the Government have thought proper to limit their interference to the financial part of the subject. (Hear.) One result of the bill will be to convert the Metropolitan Board of Works into a real corporation. It, will give them power ; with that power they will feel a sense of duty, and I cannot doubt that a body of Englishmen, elected by a very large and en lightened constituency, will do their duty, and that their conduct will entitle them to the confidence and respect of their fellow-citizens. We have given them great responsi bility, but we hays also given them considerable resources, and I think that the union will be satisfactory. (Hear.) I will not touch upon the scientific portion of the question, which scarcely comes within the scope of the bill ; but I may tell my hon. friend, who speaks with authority on the subject, that we make it a condition with the Metropolitan Board of Works that they shall effect the object which we desire, that that result shall be attained by the system of intercepting sewers, and that provision shall be made for such temporary and permanent works of deodorisetion as the metropolis has a right to require. (Hear.) With re spect to the recommendation of the hon. member for Da venport that assistance should be given to the Board of Works by the Exchequer Bill Loan Commissioners, I may say that we did not consider that proposi tion, but that the result of our deliberations led us to a different conclusion from that a'. which the hon. gen tleman has arrived. I see no reason whatever why under this hill any advance of public money need take place. The board will have the power of issuing bonds and debentures, which probably they will do at a fixed rate of interest, and they will obtain for them a sum of money according to the rate of interest in the market. At all events, they will have the power to deal with their own bonds and deben tures, and I have no doubt that they will become a very popular and satisfactory security, supported, as they will be, by the guarantee of the Government. (Hear, hear.) Another subject of importance to which the hon. gentle man called attention was thenecessitpyuobfliccobnsuiidlderiningsg whether a large and valuable portion of should continue to be exempted from rating. So far as lam concerned I think that the principle of exemption is a very bad one, and certainly in financial legislation it shoal& always be avoided. (Hear, hear.) The question did come under our consideration ; but as a committee of the House of Commons has been appointed to investigate the whole subject I cannot doubt that we are approaching a time when almost all exemptions from rating will cease. (Hear.) The virtual effect of this will of course be a contribution from the Consolidated Fund, but a contribution on sound. principles of finance. The inquiry of the committee, uo doubt, has been confined to the poor-tate, but that regu lates all rates ; and I have no doubt, if the decision of the committee is acceded to by this house, that it will in fluence all rates. The gallant general who spoke last seemed somewhat alarmed at the position in which his constituents might be placed, but he will find a proviso in the bill which renders it impossible for the Metropolitan Board of Works to creatT a nuisance in any quarter whatever ; and, even were there no such proviso, I believe the courts of law would come to the assistance of his constituents. On the whole, I take a more sanguine view of the probable effect of this measure in a financial point of view than many gentlemen who have spoken. My business being to provide a perfect security for the country, the bill is so drawn that any excess of expenditure, if any there should be beyond the 3,000,0001. here empowered - to be raised, will not be covered by our guarantee. It will be necessary, however, for the Board of Works to keep. a separate banking account of this rate under the con t ro l o f the Treasury, and every security is taken that this 3d. rate for 40 years shall be dedicated exclusively to the purls , : ses specified in the bill. It may at first sight seem a large financial result to be able to construct public works to the amount of 3,000,000/. by a 3d. rate, and at the end of the term of 40 years not to find yourself in debt ; but the cal culation has been made by persons of the highest entire rity, and the house may rely on its accuracy. I propose. to read the bill a second time on Monday, and with regard to an objection which has been taken on the point of order, I am empowered to state, on the very highest authority tient I have made no mistake in introducing it in its present form, and that no stage of its progress need be delayed on that account. (Hear, hear.) Mr. ROEBUCK said, the great objection to the Board of Works was its present mode of election by the vestries. Before long the people who paid the money would del nand to have the power of electing the persons who spent it, and the Government would be called on to alter the constital.- tion of the Board in that particular. Leave was then given to bring in the bill, which was s ubsequently brought in, and read a first time. The Cornwall Submarine Mines Bill was read a seco - ad time. the filling up, would of course elect a member in their interest, so that the directors would have eight members in the council, and the Government only seven. (Hear.) Unless the nominees of the Crown, therefore, and the persons elected by the council came to some amicable ar rangement for dying alternately, it would be impossible to carry out the intention of the clause. (iluch laughter.) The House of Commons wanted to put an end to the double government, and to have a single responsible minister for India. Did they get that under this bill ? They did not. (Hear.) Under that clause, which was in troduced at the last moment, without observation almost and which was hardly known to the country—that clause which had just been referred to by the noble earl opposite, and which he justly described as a clause con verting the council into a Parliament—it was impossible that the Minister for India could be considered as solely responsible, because ha would not have the sole power. (Hear, hear.) There was another alteration made at the last moment, which would also affect the responsibility of the Minister. It was originally intended that the Governor-General should nominate the members of the council in India, but it was now proposed that they should be nominated by the council here, that was to say, by a majority. That affected the responsibility of the Minister. How could he be held responsible when he could not spend a single shilling without the concur rence of the council, a large portion of whom were not selected by him, but elected by the council ? (Hear, hear.) The House of Commons, therefore, had not effected by this bill any of those great purposes which it had in view. The point with respect to the nomination of the members of council in India by the Governer- General bad been greatly misunderstood, for it was sup posed that the Governor-General would have the power of ousting the members of the council when he liked, and, therefore, of making them his tools. But he could do no such thing, for they eat for five years, and four years must elapse before he could make a single nomina tion himself. lie was of opinion that every officer em ployed in India should look to his own Government to reward hire for good services. (Hear.) He deprecated the system of enlisting any man in India who was not to look to his own merits and his own Government for promotion, but to his friends in the council here. (Hear.) This was a principle altogether inconsistent with good government in India. (Hear.) But he entirely agreed with the propriety of substituting the Queen's name for that of the company in the government of India, and regarded that change as the greatest advantage which could at the present moment be conferred on the coun try. But then it was necessary to consider how to use that power, for if it was not well used, it would be used to the injury instead of to the benefit of the country. He did not deny that there were many parti • cular advantages in the bill, notwithstanding the errors which had been committed. Their lordships would re collect that in the first bill which was introduced by her Majesty's Government provision was made for giving representatives in the council to the military and civil services in India. That object was absolutely accom plished in that bill ; and it must be, at all times, the object of every Government to do that. No council would be perfect that did not represent those services. The Court of Directors, as at present, were notoriously imperfect in this respect. He understood that there was no member of the court who was acquainted with the civil administration of Madras. It was of the greatest importance that there should he some person in the council acquainted with the financial administration of that presidency. The object of the provision in the first bill was that there should be at all times in the council some one who should be able to advise the Secre tary of State, and give him information on every possible subject connected with India. He also ,thought it de sirable to have representatives who need sot necessarily be connected with any of the particular services of India, but connected with large public constituencies, in the Indian council. Taal constituency represented 50,000,0001. of property connected with India, and there could not be one amongst them who had not at least property to the amount of 2,0001. They were 67,000 in number, and any person seeking to represent them must stand upon his character as much as any cane didate seeking the suffrages of a constituency in this country. The bill went even beyond that, for he felt that it was essential to the good government of India and to the safe conduct of public affairs in this country with regard to India, that the council should be a council of weight and authority, and capable of sustain ing and giving assistance to the Minister. There was no greater public object, there was no greater commercial object, to be obtained by this country than the making of England independent of America for the supply of the staple of her greatest manufacture—(hear, hear) — and knowing how little had been done for the purpose of obtaining that object for the last thirty years, be was desirous of seeing placed in the council representatives of the great commercial towns which were most inte rested in the cotton manufacture, and others who were connected with the commerce of the country. He was aware that there would be some difficulty, in the first instance, in managing these elections of members to the council, but if the Secretary of State obtained the con currence of the representatives of the great towns to his measures, he would stand in the House of Commons with a degree of strength which no Minister who ap peared there merely with the support of eight nominees of the Crown and as many nominees of a close corpora tion, could possess. What did the present bill propose It proposed that the council should be composed of eight members nominated by the Crown, and of seven nomi nated by the council, and in order to give them greater independence, they were to hold the office for life. He admitted that a man who had a 17 iir property for life was likely to be more independent than a man who held it on a more precarious tenure, but it might happen, as it had happened before, that persons who would not do their own jobs might be tempted to do the jobs of others. Tire council, as originally constituted, would be one with which the public would be perfectly satisfied, but none of them would b 3 appointed at a very early period of life. They were dealing, however, with futu rity, they were endeavouring to establish some settled form of government for India, and what he would ask would be the position of the council some ten years hence, when many of the members must be worn out and effete r They would be in the position of a conclave of cardinals when a Pope was about to die. Canvassing would be constantly going on forthe succession of these old and respectable men. But the 'House of Commons had provided that one-tenth of the patronage should be given by the council to the sons of officers in the service. We considered that provision to be utterly unnecessary, because with so many members of the council connected with India, it would be humanly impossible that they should not have a much larger share of patronage than that. But one-tenth was a restriction. The Court of Directors had always the good sense never to give any thing away as a body, because they knew perfectly well that it would lead to constant jobbing. (Hear.) They gave their patronage as indiv:duals, and on this principle for excellent reveille, they had always acted. But under this bill constant canvassing would be going on for patronage. These two provisions materially affected the usefulness of the bill. The noble earl referred to the clause which retained—for it did no more than that— that power which was always exercised by the Presi dent of the Board of Control of sending letters to the secret department of the Court of Directors. Now he spoke from experience, and he admitted that there was advantage in affording to that secret committee an oppor tunity of reading those letters, for though they had not the power of stopping them, they had the opportunity of suggesting, which was sometimes very vaiurible. This power of advising and suggesting was most important ; it ought to be possessed by the new council ; and the minis ter of India ought to attend to those suggestions. As thu bill stood the Secretary of State might send an absolute order to India which might affect the question of peace or war. The noble earl (Granville) had referred to the 55th clause ; there would be a better opportunity of con sidering it in committee ; but ho would observe that they all seemed to be in error in supposing that the troops paid out of the revenue of India continued to be paid out of that revenue when they left the shores of India and were employed elsewhere. (Hear.) That was not so ; the pay out of the revenues of India was imme diately stopped ; and this regulation would continue unless the Secretary of State should, in the most scan dalous manner, take upon himself to act otherwise. In the Court of Directors there was always an honest body to protect the revenues of India against improper charges. For instance, the expedition to China was paid out of those revenues while the troops were in India, but not after they left India. (Hear, hear.) In that case this country bad the benefit of the expedition, and the object was not an Indian one. So in the expedition to Persia ; if India bacl chosen to stand on her rights, she might have refused to pay a farthing of that expense. He feared that the operation of the clause as it stood would be injurious. Another clause provided that notice should be given of a war, and of the points against which an army was to be directed ; that their lordships would see to be impossible. (Hear.) As they were now dealing with the question of the government of India in England, it was impossible for him, holding the strong opinions which he did with respect to the actual state of that country, not to state the impressions which had been produced upon his mind by the informa tion which they had received during the la-t month. He never looked forward to the future in India with more anxiety than he did at the present moment. He felt per fectly satisfied that it was absolutely necessary to send to that country, at the commencement of the cool season, a very large—a much larger force than it was possible— with consideration for other and very grave and vital in terests, to detach from this country without a material change in all our military establishments. (Hear.) Much more : however valuable it might be to wield an increased strength of troops, he did not believe that that increased strength would enable us to re-establish peace is that country, unless we sent with that army a policy intelli gible and acceptable. (Hear.) The first act of her Ma jesty's Government, when her Majesty assumed in her own person nominally the direction of the affairs in India, must be in the most solemn manner (and the Queen's word must be sacred) to re-assure the people of that country with respect to their religion and their ter ritorial rights. (Hear.) That policy must be, not to please the Home of Commons, or to please people on the hust ings —or, still less, p e ople on the platform ; it most be addressed to the minds and hearts of the people of We bad to govern India for India, and not so as to please a party at home ; and the now Government ought to make a declaration of the principles upon which it was to be governed such as might be thoroughly acceptable and intelligible to the people. But however good the policy we might declare —however great the additions wo might make to our armies—those additions and that policy would fail of their object unless a man was at the head of the Government of India who had the confidence of natives and Europeans, who was capable of directing military operations, and who, by the w e i g ht o f hi s per sonal authority, which in India was everything, was capable of compelling all his se lsordinate officers to co operate in his policy and to carry all his plans into ope ration, (leer, gear.) Toe laarquis of CLAN RICARDE could not concur in . all; ' ' 'au fallen from the noble tar loppooite, but he DESTITUTE POOR. Mr. JOHN LOCKE asked the President of the Poor law Board whether it was the intention of that board, previous to the next winter, to call upon the guardians of the several metropolitan parishes and unions to make better provision for the reception of the destitute poor who have not committed crime, in order that the cost of the assistance required (or the vagrant poor may be more equally divided amongst the parishes and districts than it appears to be at present, as shown by a parliamentary return, No. 291, of this session, and in order that each lowish or union may bear its fair share of this burthen, in conformity with the spirit and intention of the 7th and B•,h Viet, ' c. 101 ? Mr. S. ESTCOURT said that the actin question passed in 1844, and the then Poor-!aw Board took measures to carry it into execution. Before anything, however, could be done, a select committee was appointed to inquire into the working of the act, and that committee never made a report, the inference being that they did not ap prove of it. His opinion was most favouratle, and dur ing the recess he should communicate with the various parties interested, with the view, if possible, of restoring pert session the law to the position in which it was placed by the bill of 1844. He knew that such a step would be looked upon by many as ono towards a general equalisation of poor•rates, but he believed that both those who hoped and those who feared such a eronsum mation would be greatly disappointed in the result. OUR CONSUL AT NAPLES. Mr. DALGLISH wished to know whether Mr. Barber, the British Consul at Naples, bad received any promotion or other mark of approbation from Govern ment for his great kindness to the English engineers of the Cagliari while imprisoned, and for his successful exertions in procuring their release ? Mr. S. FITZGERALD was so sensible of the zeal and intelngence of Mr. Barbar that he was not disposed to criticise too severely the terms of the hon. member's question, but he could not help reminding him that the zeal and intelligence cf Mr. Lyons had also something to do in producing the desired result. The Government had already recognised the services of Mr. Barbar, by sending him, alteough not a naval officer, to deliver up the Cagliari to the Sardinian Government, when he re ceived their personal thanks. Subsequently Mr. Barbar had been appointed, subject to her Majesty's pleasure, to a past of double the value to that which he now filled. PRICE OF GUANO. Mr. CAIRD asked the Under Secrotaty of State for Foreign Affairs whether he would lay on the table a copy of the letter fro►n the agents of the Peruvian Go vernment on the subject of a reduction in the price of guano. Mr. S. FITZGEILALD had no objection to lay on the table the papers asked for by the hon. member. KING OF OIME. _ - . Mr. PEASE asked the President of the Board of Control whether the King of Oude was now in custody ; and, if so, whether he was about to be brought to trial Lord STANLEY said that according to the latest ac counts the King of Oude was in custody at Fort Wil liam, but it was not known at what precise time his trial would take place. CLIELSEA BRIDGE. Mr. ALCOOK asked the First Commissioner of Works what ens the amount of the loan advanced by the Government for Battersea-park, Chelsea-bridge, and Chelsea embankment, and what was the amount to be deducted for land sold to the railway company and to Chelsea Hospital, or disposed of in any other way, in order that it might be clearly understood by those who desired to remove the toll-bars at Chelsea-bridge, what sum might be required to be raised by an appeal to pub lic subscription with a view to make up any deficiency (if the surplus land did not fetch the amount due), so as to pay off in full all the money lent by Government for the purpose of this great metropolitan improvement. Lord J. MANNERS said that the sum advanced was 200,0001., and the annual interest 8,0001., and there were certain liabilities beyond, which bad been fixed by Act of Parliament in this way. In the first place any sum obtained by the sale of land was to be appropriated to the formation of the Midge, then go to the repayment of the sum due to the State, and if any was still left it was to be devoted to other metropolitan improvements. It was, therefore, quite impossible that any sum could be appro priated to the redemption of the toll, accruing from the sale of land. Of the land sold 65,0001. worth had been purchased by the railway company, and 16,500/. by Chelsea College ; but charges would have to be defrayed before any portion was available. The loan on Chelsea brid,e was 80,0001., and, with interest, now amounted to 97,0001. There were no funds, therefore, available for tolls. THE BOERS AND THE BA.SUTAS. In reply to Mr. PEASE, Sir E. BULWER-LYTTON, w'.•:o spoke very indis tinctly, was understood to say that there bad been such an immigration as that alluded to by the hon. member, but it bad not received the sanction of the Government. With respect to the hostilities between the Boers and Basutas, the last accounts indicated no approach to a termination of hostilities. Sir G. Grey had offered to act as mediator, but it appeared that at the same time the Boers bad called upon the South African Republic for aid, and the latter were sending an armed force into the country. HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. Mr. ROEBUCK wished to know from the Chaccellor of the Exchequer whether an arrangement could be made giving him a day for his motion respecting the Hudson's Bay Company. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would endeavour to-morrow, or on Monday at the latest, to come to eome arrangement to meet the wishes of the hon. and learned gentleman. SCOTCH TENURES. In reply to Mr. EWART. Mr, Secretary WALPOLE intimated that it was in• tended to bring in a bill to amend the law on tenures in Scotland next session. DUCHY OF CORNWALL TENANTS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in an swering Mr. Roberts, said that it was intended to place the tenants under the Duchy of Cornwall in a position not worse than that of tenants under the Crown, but by a bill to be introduced next session rather than by a clause in the measure now before the house. NEW CALEDONIA BILL. Mr. GLADSTONE inquired whether it was proposed to take the New Caledonia Bill that evening, and sug geqed that, as amendments were to be introduced, it should be recammittei for that purpose, and printed with the amendments previous to the third reading. Mr. LO WE asked if the right hon. Secretary for the Colonies would have any objection to lay before the house an estimate of the charge which he anticipated would be cast upon the Exchequer by the formation and defence of this new colony ? Sir E. B. LYTTON, after consulting with one or two members of the Governineut near him, turned round and whispered a few words across to Mr. Gladstone, while the Speaker was putting the question on the first reading of a bill. Shortly afterwards, Mr. WYLD repeated the question as to whether the bill was to be proceer.led wit that evening. Sir E. B. LYTTON, after another consultation, re 'Led that it was his intention to move the third reading that evening. CHINESE PASSENGERS ACT (1855) AMEND- ?*,TENT BILL. Mr. LA.BOUCHERE called the right hon. baronet's attention to the desirability of laying tte papers in refe rence to this bill on the table. before they were called upon to discuss the measure. S rE. B LYTTON be sped in a day or two to be able to produce them. CHURCH RATE (COMMUTATION BILL. Mr. ALCOCK app ea l e d t o th e Chancellor of the Ex chequer to give him eith er a morn ing or evening bitting for bringing in this bill, The CHANCELLOR o f th e EXCHEQUER, without replying to the questine , moved tbat the orders of the day be postponed anti l after the notice of motion for bringing in the Metr.-,y ,olitan Main Drainage Bill. _ CLERK OF PETT.-\_,:3ESSIONS (TR,E LIND) BILL, AND DU:BLIN POLICE BILL. In answer to Mr.:V. 1 11,2m and Colonel GREVILLIC, Lord /lAA S saieL that it was intended to proceed with the Dublin Police bill_ as soon as possible. With regard LEGITIMACY DECLARATION BILL. The committee on this bill was resumed, and the .0 e mainincv clauses were agreed to, and the bill was reported to the house. It was ordered for third reading to-morr pw. CIVIL BILLS, &c. (IRELAND) ACT AMENDMJINT BILL. Mr. WHITESIDE moved the second reading of this bill. Mr. COGAN moved as an amendment that it be read a second time that day three months. Mr. WALPOLE defended the bill, of which th,e inten tion was to allow the assistant barristers to retire upon pensions when no longer able to discharge their duties. The objections to the bill might be removed in committee. The house divided, when there appeared— For the amendment Against it Majority. The bill was then read a second time. The other orders were disposed of, and the hones ad• j ourned. BIRTHS. ATTWOOD—On the 14th inst., at Clay-hill, Enfield, Mre. Algernon Attwood, of twin daughters. LADALMONDIERE- On the 14th inst., at 13, South Auclley street, the wife of Captain Labalmondiere, of a daughter. SHERIDAN—On the 12th inst., at Bellefield-house, Par sou' s-green, Middlesex, the wife of Henry B. Sheridan, Esq., M.P., of a daughter. MARRIAGES. SHAKERLEY—A cs.Eits --On the 14th inst., at the parish church of Astbury, Sir Charles Watson Shakerley, Bt., of Somerford-park, in the county of Chester, to Geor giana Harriott, eldest daughter of George I. Ackere, Esq., of Moreton Hall, in the same county. HIGGIN—CAMPBELL —On the 15th inst., at St. Saviour's Church, Paddington, John. son of Thomas Housman Higgin, Esq., to Margaret Grant, fifth daughter of the late Alexander Campbell, Esq. DEATHS. CAMPBELL —On the 11th inst., at Kensington, Thomas C. Campbell, Esq., aged 50. DEARMAN—On the 1 'th inst., at Sussex-terrace, Win chester, Thomas A. Dearman, aged 56. SIMPSON—On the 14th inst., at Clougha Cottage, Quern more, near Lancaster, John Simpson, Esq., of St. Tho- Tna s's square, Hackney, one of 11.111.'s Justices of the peace for Middlesex, aged 76. SMITH—At Newcastle-upon-Tyne, very suddenly,William Smitb, Esq., of Clifton, near Ashborne, in the county of Derby, of the firm of Smith, Cox, and Co., cheese factors, Derby, aged 53. SPROULE —On the 13th inst., at North House, Tewkes bury, Anthony Sproule, Esq,, aged 54. LONDON' : Printed and Published by HITEDO YOUNG; of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at Thoi Sun Office, N'o. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the S%voy, in the county of laidrilesn, Friday, July 16, robs, /R. aN( NTI bons by E Mr. eTerY evening e) Admission Is., at the Poyal Cramer, Beale, a OHRIST7 ./ —TIIRE THIN VENT.-1 Circus --Italian commencing at Back, h.l The Patrons o: company start f, FATHI PAYgIC Dfirttnt 3.11,j.ct Market), at roil I M. AAR/VA ARRTA GE. & receipt of twelve ALHAM (The VaLLETT'A bC nary and Brtlliai and Gymn•stie General Haveloc P erformances Evening at 8 a'e Private Boxes l a. ; - , a() fees for bookie Under tl :r the Orient] GE' Palace, on MON. RENJAI Southw: Curer. TemuorE of the year, for 1 to any distance cricket clubs, &C 14 full length, to Asgul Place. London. of is on advants N.R. 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