The Sun. — London, England, 1860-02-14 00:00:00

has temporarily deprived us. (Hear, hear.) Let me, in the first place, as an important point for our consideration, give the committee some idea of what other nations really possess. There is, happily, no longer any mystery in these matters. (Hear, hear.) I rejoiced when the right hon. baronet oppo site gave us last year the fullest information about our own and foreign navies, and shall follow his example. I may also state that foreign nations have no sort of hesitation in show ing us their dockyards. An idea at one time prevailed that the French did not like us to state publicly in Parliament the extent and composition of their navy. Only two years ago, in anticipation of a discussion in this house, and know ing there was some little difference of opinion as to the amount of the French force, I wrote to the French Minister of Marine, asking whether he would have any objection to give me a list of the French navy. He sent me, in reply, the name and force of every ship in the navy. (Hear, hear.) What I am about to state, therefore, need excite no appre hension, as being likely to give the least offence to other nations. I begin with France. The French navy is really becoming very powerful. (Hear, hear.) At the present time the French have 32 ships of the line afloat and five building; 34 frigates afloat and 13 building; five iron cased ships—of which I shall have occasion to speak pre sently—building ; 17 corvettes afloat and two building; 39 gunboats afloat and 29 building ; five floating-batteries afloat and four building; 31 transports, 86 avisos afloat and three building. All these aro steam• vessels ; 224 are afloat and 61 building. (Hear.) We have reason to be lieve that most of those which are building might be launched within a few weeks, but I confine the force at the immediate disposal of the French to 244 ships. It is true that if any gentleman were to inquire at the French Ad miralty, he would be told that they had only nine ships-of the-line at sea, the rest being in reserve; but we k hould never lose sight of the fact that every one of those 244 vessels could be manned and sent to sea in a very few weeks. (Hear, hear.) " Ships in reserve" is a very good term for the French, and I do not quarrel with it, but in one sense of the word those ships aro parfoetly ready. The result is, therefore, that the French have 214 steam-vessels which, if hostilities were to break out, which God forbid—and wo have, indeed, every reason to believe that no such eventuality will occur—could be manned and sent to sea within a very few weeks, some of them within a few days. (Hear, hear.) But there is anothea Power which is making great struggles to create a steam navy. I mean Russia. We aro informed on ♦ery good authority that the Russians have nine ships of the line afloat and nine building; 18 frigates afloat, and three build ing; 10 corvettes, afloat and 11 building; 30 small vessels, of which we do not know the force, afloat ; 112 gunboats afloat, and 26 building ; eight transports. The total is 18: steam vessels afloat and 48 building. That is a very for Laidable navy, and should be taken into consideration when we:are discussing what amount of force we ought to main tain at sea. (Hear.) England, as is well known, has a late years been endeavouring to form reserves at a vast expense. First of all, the right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle established the continuous service ; then we had Coast Volunteers. Up to the present time the last-mentioned scheme has net been very successful. I mention this sub ject now, instead of waiting until I referred to our own force in order to show the distinction between ourselves, who really have, so to speak, no reserves, and the French and Russians, who have vast bodies of men at their immediate disposal. (Hear.) lam obliged to say that before stating the force which we have in commission, and which, accord ing to my calculation, is that which may fairly be compared with what the French have afloat. The distinction between the fleets of the two countries is this—that while all the French ships which are afloat can he manned at very short notice, it is only those which we have in commission which are in a similar position. On the first of December last we had in commission tho following steamships—l exclude sail ing vessels altogether—line-of-battle ships, 27; frigates, 43 ; sloops, small vessels, and gunboats, 94 ; total 164, being an increase of 46 vessels as compared with the number of smaller ships in commission on lho Ist of December, 1856. In addition, we had on the Ist of February, 1859, the guardehips, the Coastguard tenders and cruisers, all steam-vessels, making a total of 244 steamships in commission. Since that date we have commissioned one line-of-battle ship and two fri gates. Ido not think that can be called anything like an undue or improper force. The force which we have for the defenee of our own shores, including, with the permission of sny gallant friend the member for Southwark (Sir C. Napier) the Mediterranean squadron, is as follows :-27 line-of-battle ships, 14 frigates and corvettes, and 29 sloops and gunboats ; total 70, which is a very respectable force. Of the 27 line-of-battle ships which we keep going back wards and forwards, 14 are at home and 13 in the Mediter ranean. In addition to this force we have the 10 Coast guard blockships which ate very useful for the defence of our harbour—(hear, hear)—and 17 or 18, or sometimes 20 tenders, gunboats, and cruisers. In China we have 14 frigates and 41 sloops ; total, 65 vessels; and upon other stations, some at Vancouver's Island, some on the North American station, and some at other places, we have three line-of-battle ships, 19 frigates and corvettes, and 32 sloops and gunboats—total 54. This is the force which we have to oppose an enemy. God forbid that I should use that word as though any opposition was likely to occur—this is the force we maintain at sea in comparison with the forces of France and Russia. We have of line-of-battle ships 48 afloat, and 11 building, and we expect within the next month to launch two more, which will make 50 afloat. Of frigates we have 84 afloat and 9 building or convc rting ; steam blockships, 9. afloat ; iron-cased vessels, 4 building ; corvettes, 16 afloat, and 6 building; sloops, 45 screw and 35 paddle, total 80 afloat and 15 building; small vessels, 27 afloat; gunboats, 169 afloat and 23 building ; floating batteries, 8 afloat; transports, troopships, tenders, yachts, &c., screw 18, paddle 43, total 61; screw mortar ships, 4 afloat. Supposing the committee is pleased to consent to these estimates, we hope to add to the navy before the end of the next financial year 10 line-of-battle ships, 12 1 frigates, 4 iron- cased ships, 4 corvettes, 15 sloops, and ! 23 gun-vessels and gunboats. That includes the con ; version of four line•of-battle ships and four frigates. With I regard to the estimates generally, before I turn to the par • 1 ticular votes, I wish only to state to the committee that they will find that the great increase arises upon three votes, those referring to the number of men, the building of ships, and the transport of troops. This expenditure is very large, but I hope it is of a temporary and special nature, conse quent upon the hostilities with China. Ido not enter into ; the question as to the policy of these hostilities, but I think that, under the circumstances, it is right for the Admiralty to present an estimate which will be adequate to the per formance of the services that may be required. (Hear.) I will now ask the committee to turn to vote No. 1, upon ; which there is an increase of no less than:£110,000. Wo ask i for an increase of 11,700 men and bays, of which number we propose to add to the fleet, 8,000 seamen, 1,000 marines, and 2;000 boys (this last addition being in accordance with the recommendation of the Royal commission as to the esta blishment of the training ships), 100 additional Coast guardsmen afloat, and 600 on shore. The Coastguards.. Men on shore are to replace the old Custom-house civi lians, who are being superannuated. The Board of Ad miralty have given to the question of the number of men required the most serious consideration, and that which has been asked for is only enough to man the ships in commis sion, and to carry out another recommendation oftho Royal commission, that we should maintain a reserve of seamen in our own ports. (Hear.) We hope we shall be enabled to keep up a force at sea according to the numbers I have men tioned, perhaps with sone little increase here and there, as well as a reserve of seamen in our home ports ; end in addi • tion we hope to be able to maintain a body of marines not lets than 6,000 as a home force. . . Sir J. PAKINGTON.—What would you state as the average number of the home force ? Lord CLARENCE PAGET.—We hope to have a re serve of 10,000 men over and ab ove w h at are employed on active service. Of course it is impossibl e t o say exact l y whit will be the f or c e available, but it is the desire of the Ad miralty to carry out the recommendation of the Royal com mission, that there should be a considerable reserve of sea men in the home ports, and available for any emergency. In connexion with vote No. 1, we propose to increase the pay of the masters. engineers, pay-masters, and chaplains of the Royal Navy. Last year my right hon. friend opposite (Sir J. Pakington) proposed what has given very general satis faction in the navy, an increase in the pay of the surgeons of the navy. It was a great misfortune, however, that ho overlooked the claims of three other classes of officers who labour under the same disadvantages as the surgeons—that is to say, to whom the higher ranks of the service are prac tically, if not absolutely, closed. A very strong reason why we should improve the position of the assistant-masters is to be found in the scarcity of these officers which the Navy Zist exhibits. They aro men of great respectability and high education, and they naturally prefer the merchant set.- viee to the navy. The same remark holds good of the en gineers, who do not care to give up the higher pay which they got in the merchant service to come into the navy. As L° Paymasters, lhere is no difficulty in procuring them, but they are in the same social position, and it is impossible to leave them out of view in framing the scheme. The prope ls' is that there should be a small increase of pay to each of ~those classes The change will consist chiefly in putting then in a higher position, with their present pay,—that is to say, they will be allowed to count towards their master's Pay fer the time they have been second masters, and so on with the paymasters and engineers. It is proposed they should have the advantage of counting the time during Which they have acted before we have confirmed their rank, and also part of the time they have been assistants, which Will be a great boon to these officers. If her Majesty should Unction the arrangement I will lay it on the table. The cost of this increase will be only some £25,000. I do not k now, that the scheme will give unb oun d e d sa ti s f ac ti on . Seine of the parties concerned may think it a rather Laggardly advance, but it is all the Government think it I lea to propose. The item for good conduct pay to petty f,ttleers is very much the same as last year. There is ono u trge item not in the present estimate which was very bounty,e that of last year. I mean the half '1 h )charge for seamen's clothing, tobacco, and !(: I P, 1:380 CO' is very large this year, even th ong £274 , 59 4 i it f, assumes will be repaid by seamen in the course of the y e ar, and I had some doubt whether it ought to fall entirely rthe proseat estimate or be in part provided for in that of tuft l t Year. The enormous addition to the fleet, and th e gra eus issue of clothing exceeded the calculations of the e..9loptroller, and our store. being exhausted, this large item ,hee Tquireci to be taken. The vote for victualling needs no explanation than than that I have given for the previous f". tho third vote, that for the Admiralty, there is an Ilerease the amount of £14,000. I have received from the as the Navy a very curious statement "a to the amount of superintendence both at the Admiralty d dock yar d s s i nce 1891, which shows very clearly that we bean Much harder wor k e d now t h an our pre d ecessors use d t o In 1821 the navy estimates amounted to £6,382,785—it eery different figure from the estimates of the present day ; r o u the sup er i n t en d ents of the Admiralty an d N avy 4 rdi+ Which were then separate, consisted of not less than I state ile the If coal, )ut ox )re, on IL pro treaty to ap of her Edenls- - ast for herd. OD. Mill reading io fixed •om the subject ht hon. blinds manner e dealt one .1 lid ad asking Ist por- TOD. 0111 (Hoar, w what H• had t to hid tion of Other Oat bill dieota• ots I*. These 100,Q" nfthea Urar m u t ant r at so should row's' =teat tituatas fearitil sok the the ix* of the o ship• 10 pet and la* Lquired go oil Y Was Was au 1 navy. ao ler Ki that dieted money *retort uld b• year of sm•n ead of mnt of he re• -int Oil s timer able to stifioa• y estt• It was natioa could meat ? ie Ad• .ashy tett the re widll Nod the ity oa ri Cue vi the t raise al dig autual what :a. It to the THE SUN,' LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 14, 1860. 21 people—seven lords, 18 commissioners, and nine secre taries... The present estimates amount to D 2,802,000, or more than double those of 1821, and the superintendence of the Admiralty consists of only 13 persons—namely, six lords, two secretaries, and five principal officers. We are obliged to take a oonsiderable sum this year for additional clerical assistance, temporary clerks, and the like ; but on ' referrine• to the accountsof 1821 I find that the clerking do partment was then about as numerous as new. The cost of the Admiralty at Whitehall was £123,986, in 1821, against £97,308 at the present time. (Hear, hear.) Another item of increase in this vote is in consequence of the Board order which was made at the time when the right hon. baronet was at the head of the Admiralty. It provides that the Director of the Works Department shall no longer be charged with Vote 11, but that the expenditure shall be shown under the heads of each establishment, and I believe it is a very good arrangement. (Hear, hear.) I should mention that as there is such a vast amount of business in the Controller's Department it is absolutely necessary to give him sorneassistance, and I believe it will be a positive matter of economy. The fact is that this officer, who super intends the dockyard expenditure, and who really ought to be constantly going into th e dockyards, overlooking the construction of ships and alterations taking place, is kept a prisoner in his office by the vast amount of business which he has to do. (Hear.) The Duke of Somerset has gone into the report of the Committee on Dockyard Economy, i and his minute, which will be shortly in the hands of mem bore, presents many suggestions and remarks which will be found to be very valuable. Having given some atten tion to the question of the payment of the men in the dock yard., I must admit that it is fraught with difficulties. Whether to pay the men by day labour, whether by task or job, whether their earnings are to be unlimited, and whether they are to work extra time, are all matters of vital import ance. The question involves the expenditure of millions of the public money, and therefore it has been considered very carefully by the Admiralty. But lam bound to say that when the hoe, member who has given notice of such a motion proposes an inquiry, he will not find any great opposition on the part of the Admiralty. (Cheers.) In the meantime it will be our business to reform wherever we can. We shall not wait for the report of that commit tee to carry out improvements which we think are to the advantage of the service, but we shall really look forward to that inquiry with a considerable amount of interest. (Hear.) It is not that we consider the Dockyard Committee has not done its duty. They have made many most valuable sug gestions, and some of them we have already carried out. With regard, for instance, to the entry of apprentices, we have taken steps to improve that system, and various other details upon which I will not dilate. We still think, how ever, that there is a feeling on the part of the country that we do not got value for our money. (Cheers) With that feeling existing, it is wisdom, both on the part of Govern ment and of Parliament to forward by every means any inquiry which may be thought necessary. If it shall be found that the present system works well, no man will rejoice more than I shall, or snore than, I am sure, will the right hon. baronet. But if any method can be found of constructing men of war—always bearing in mind that they must be built with reference to all these requirements —at a less expense, it will be the duty of her Majesty's Govern ment to give every possible assistance in making that dis covery. (Hear, hoar.) There is no material increase in Vote 4, for the Coastguard. We take, it will be observed, the same amount for the annual retainers, conduct-money, &c., for the Naval Reserve, as we did last year. This new force, to which the country looks with so much satisfaction, has certainly up to the present time not fulfilled tho expec tations which were raised. I always felt, from the first, that it was an experiment. I know what seamen are. They are fine, noble, hearty creatures, but men of remarkably suspicious character, and if there are any people they are suspicious of, it is the Admiralty. (Laughter.) We are really much indebted to the Board of Trade for the exer tions which they have made in drawing up the regulations and giving us their assistance to carry out the measure. I wish I could state to the house that the men were entering freely ; but they are not. Captain Browne reports from the different merchant ports that the men say, "We think the Inducement very fair. 'We think it very handsome; but they only want to kidnap us. The moment we put our names down they will send us off to China." It is very curious to see men labouring under that delusion. I have been asked over and over again by directors of the great shipping companies, and by men of importance in these commercial ports, for some assurance on the part of the Government that the men will not be called out until war is declared. I told them I could not give that assurance, but I also told them that it was perfectly certain there was no intention to call them out, except in the event of a critical emergency; that the throat of immediate hos tilities, or of something which would oblige us to make the greatest exertions for the protection of our shores, were the only circumstances under which the Go vernment would call for their services. If I can re assure them by what I say to-night, I really believe little more is wanting to induce them to flock to the force. (Hear, hear.) It is so far satisfactory that they are begin ning to get over this extraordinary idea. I wish to declare to them that her Majesty's Government have no sort of in tention to kidnap them into the navy. (Hear, hear.) And perhaps I had better add a more practical assurance—that if we wished we could not enter them in the navy, because the number is complete, and except for casualties we have no means of entering any considerable number of men over and above what wo have at present. (Hear.) I think that is a very satisfactory state of things, and that the house will be glad to hear there is no difficulty in getting men. It must be remembered that a vast force of ships is only the creation of the last few months, and that this fleet is wholly manned. (Cheers.) The bounty has been reduced to Xi for able, and £2 for ordinary seamen. I will not enter into the question of the propriety of the bounty. The bounty has been given, and all the men are enjoying it. They are . now in that respect on the same footing as the army, and we can raisethe bounty to-morrow without committing any injustice to the men already in the service. Her Majesty's Government have not come to any decision upon the sub • ject. It is a small sum—only £20,000 out of the millions we vote for the navy. It is a gift on entering the service which enables the men to purchase clothes and other articles, and it is a question whether it is not advisable to continue it. At present it is only in force until the 21st of March next. (Hoar, hear.) Upon vote 5. for the scientific branch, there is a small increase, in which I think the house will be disposed to agree. The charge is for chronometers. The house will scarcely credit that up to this time officers in command of ships have been obliged to buy their own chro nometers, and it really is a scandal to the service that we should have cast this burden upon officers, many of them poor gentlemen, who have enough to do to pay their way. Line-of-battle ships, frigates, and troop -ships will have three, sloops two, and gunboats one. (Hear, hear.) Vote 6 is for her Majesty's establishment at home, and on this vote I am going to ask the house to agree to an inconsider able increase to permit the employment of two assist ant-superintendents at the great yards of Portsmouth and Plymouth. What I have said about the Comptroller of the Navy is doubly true with regard to the superintendents of these two great yards. One of the great reasons, I have alwayi thought, why we hear of Piling in the dockyard's, and of there net being as much activity there as there ought to be, arises from the constant confinement of the superin tendents to their offices. Their whole business is to write letters—and I put it to the house whether that is a proper occupation for such officials. (Hear, hear.) If you want economy you must not stint your superintendents. You must enable them to go about the dockyards and see that the men aro not idling. The appointmeut of these two as sistant superintendents may save thousands of pounds by keeping the men at work. (Hear, hear.) The Admiralty have also thought it their duty to look into the whole ques tion of the correspondence of the superintendents. lam afraid to tell the house the number of returns we asked for. Our table at the Admiralty is literally swamped with' the dockyard papers, but we are endeavouring to go into this matter of returns with a view of suppressing such as are no longer necessary, and I trust that we may produce a groat lessening of labour. It will be observed by the house that in all these yards additional temporary clerks are employed. We are quite aware of the growing. evil of these temporary clerks. (Hear.) It has become a public inconvenience in those great establishments ; but the house must remember that if you have additional workmen and additional ships in com mission the work of the clerks is also increased in the same ratio. We propose to take into consideration whether some improvement may not be made in the establishment of the clerks with a view to lessening labour. No 7is the vote for foreign yards,in which there is a small increase for increased business, principally at Malta and the Mediterranean yards. On vote 8 for artificers, my right hon. friend opposite will, perhaps, find fault with me because we have reduced it somewhat. When the present Board of Admiralty came into office, we asked the house to agree to an addition of £lOO,OOO on this vote, over and above what the right hon. gentleman had proposed. We did so, because if that useonrlf i c o r o en o c o e o to the Surveyor of the Navy he told us that were not added to the estimate, it whichwo theuldberitgmhptohsosniblefos him to complete the programme gen tleman had laid before the house. W e ask ed the house, therefore, to agree to that £lOO,OOO ; but we have now made such progress that the Government think it possible to re tvheert r t i o gh t the ehosna.m g e en n t u le n tn ib a o h r of wa g m 3 l3 'ed oa w rd he o n f Admiralty. This therefore is, in fact, not a decrease, but as only knocking off the £lOO,OOO which we took over and a ent the were head of em t p h l above the right hon. gentleman's estimate of last year. Vote 9 is the same as last year, with the exception of a small sum for the artificers of the fleet, who aro allowed extra pay when they are emp l oye d i n th© dockyards ashore. Vote 10, for the repair and building of ships, I have always thought ought to bear the motto— " Diruit, cediticat, mutat, quadratarotundis." It is all pulling to pieces, building up again, and altering in every shape. (Hear, hear.) Looking narrowly into those alterations, I may differ somewhat from some of my col leagues as to the extent to which the conversion of ships ought to be carried. Because I am in office I am not going to retreat from the opinion which I expressed out of office. I greatly dislike these alterations. My opinion is that these old ships aro not worth the time and money expended on them. In my humble opinion, it is like putting "new wine into old bottles." (Hear.) The two woods do not agree, and they speedily decay. If you cut a hole into one of these old ships and put an engine into it, it may be made very valuable for the defence of the country as a superior kind of block ship, but I cannot agree in the propriety of lengthen ing them at the bows, cutting them in two, and so on. This vote is composed of several items, but I cannot say that it gives any great detailed information. (Hear, hear.) The items aro largo and the information small. The Board of Admiralty have anxiously considered their vote, and they are m os t d es i rous of giving every possible in formation with regard to it. I should have liked to lay this vote on the tabl e very much in the same form as vote 11 for public works, but the Admiralty laboured under very great difficulties with regard to it. I am very unwilling to impute blame to any ono, but if I were to impute blame to any one, it would be to the House of Commons, who have never really asked for any detailed information with regard to this great vote No. 10. I ant naturally told when I for information, How can we give an estimate for a future year, when we really don't know what p roport i on of money we have expended during the past year on building, or on repairing, or on what particular ships it has been ex pended." The Board of Admiralty called on the Accountant- General to give a return which I very much wish was now on the table of the house—of the cost of ships during the past year. That return, which is of a very interesting cha racter, gives the name and the cost of every ship in the navy under six different heads—namely, ships building, convert ing from sail to screw, maintenance of ships in commission, of the steam reserv e , Of o ld s ailing ships in ordinary, and maintenance of the dockyard guard. The timber, beams, and other stores required for these different purposes are likewise shown. I do not say that the return is perfect, because it is a nove lt y; it h as hi t h er t o ex i s t e d in the dock yard, but it has never yet been practically turned to account, and the items consequently have not been properly charged —in fact, it may be sail that its present value is nil as com pared with what it will be in future years. As the name of the dockyard is attached to each ship, with the particulars of the amount of material consumed, the cost of labour, the outlay on hog engines, and every detail respecting her inter nal construction and fitting out, the Admiralty will be at once enabled to refer to the cost of each vessel, and to com pare it with the cost of similar vessels in the other yards. (Hoar, hear.) I n a ll ma tt ers o f account there is nothing like publieity_(hear, hoar)—and I ant persuaded that one great and immediate effect of this comparative view of the cost of ships will be a direct tendency to economy in the several establishments. (Hear, hear.) Take the case of a ves sel in commission very few persons who have not turned their attention to that subject can form any idea of the cost to which the country is put by each addi tional line-of-battle-ship. The public say, " Give us ten line-of-battle ships additional ;" this return will give them an idea of the magnitude of the request. (Hear.) Within the last few days a gallant officer in command of one of her Majesty's vessels and an intimate friend of mine, called at the Admiralty, and in the course of conversation I showed him what his ship had cost during the past year, and he was absolutely thunderstruck. (Hear, hear.) Sir C. NAPIE It—Such a return existed once before. Lord C. PAGET—What haa been done shows what is capable of being done, and I trust that if my right hon. friend (Sir J. Pakington) succeeds to office, he will continue to require the same information. When two or three years have elapsed, wo shall be able to place this vote upon a much more intelligible and satisfactory footing, by striking an average of the cost which this return will exhibit. I have shown the house what we possess in ships built ; it will now be interested, probably, in knowing what we have con structed in tonnage, and what we propose to build during the present year. It may possibly be remembered that, in proposing the estimates last year we announced our inten tion, of course subject to contingencies, of building 46,000 tons of shipping in the dockyards. Sir J. PAKINGTON--Exclusive of conversions ? Lord C. PAGET—We said we would convert four line of-battle ships and five frigates, in addition. What we have actually built amounts to 19,730 tons in ships of the line, 13,654 in frigates, 5,436 in corvettes, and 522 in gun vessels. We have not fulfilled our promise as to frigates, in which class I stated that we would build 16,000 tons, the reason being that there was an insufficiency of timber for the purpose; but we have made up for this deficiency in another way, for we have gone beyond our andertaking in the conversion of sailing into steam frigates and screw ships. (Hear, hear.) What we propose doing in the present, or, as my right hon. friend reminds me, the ensuing financial year, is to build 13,216 tons of ships of the line, 13,500 tons of frigates, 4,871 tons of corvettes, 8,045 tons of sloops and gun vessels ' and 302 tons of g un b oa t s , ma ki ng a tota l o f 39 , 934 tons. In addition we propose to convert four more line-of battle ships and four frigates. It is necessary that I should afford some idea of the expenditure of timber that is required. Our ordinary establishment in the dockyards, which is regarded as two years' stock, consists of 60,000 loads of timber for shipbuilding purposes ; but during the present financial year, instead of consuming the ordinary rate of 30,000 loads, we have used 64,000 loads of timber, the result of which has been that we have been literally unable te import timber with the same rapidity with which we were working it up. Of copper, also, it has boon found exceedingly difficult to proc ure an adequate supply, for this last year wo have consumed nearly 1,000 tone. (Hear, hear.) Some discrepancy will be observed between 8 and 10, which should bear a strict proportion to each other ; but, having thus leesenel our stock of timber, we this year require a larger sum by £Bl,OOO on that account, and we do not increase the number of men in an equal ratio. It may not be uninteresting to the house to know what the French are doing in this respect. It is true that they have greater facilities for procuring timber than we have, but they have in stock 160,000 loads, or sufficient to build 15 line-of-battle ships, 16 frigates, and 15 corvettes, which is a stock far above anything we have ever had in this coun try. (Hear.) The next item, for coals, also exhibits an increase, not only because we have a snore numerous fleet, but because we were obliged to send a large stock to China. I pass to the next item, for the purpose of steam machinery, as to which the house would, doubtless, desire some infor mation. We are building eugines fur line-of-battle ships to the extent of 5,700-horse power; for frigates, 7,100- horse power; other vessels and corvettes, 1,200-horse power; sloops, 3,000 horse power; gun vessels, 1,200- horse power; gu n b oa t s , 600-horse power—that is t say, a /rower in all equal to that of 13,800 horses. These cost £55 15s. each horse power. This is a very high price for machinery, no doubt. But if the committee look carefully to the items that compose a steam engine for a man-of war, they will agree with the Committee on Steam Machinery, who report that, regard Using had to the difference between them, tho navy steam engines do not cost more than those of merchant vessels. They must have spare gear, their engines must work in a small apace, and they are in ether respects very much more expensive than those of the merchant service. I will now turn to the iron cased ships which are building. The right hon. gentleman opposite (Sir J. Pakington), hearing that they wore build ing in France several of these vessels, thought it right to take a supplemoutary or special vote—l think a supplemen tary vote—for building two iron-cased frigates, one of which was ordered to be built before the late Government quitted (AEU. Tho right hon. gentleman asked me, soon after the present Government same into office, whether the Admiralty were going on with the second frigate. I replied that the Board of Admiralty were carrying out certain ex periments, and that if they were satisfactory the Admiralty would go on with the second frigate. Shortly afterwards the Admiralty ordered a second frigate to be built of the same dimensions as the first. These vessels are of enor mous scantling and very large tonnage. The Warrior and the Black Prince are of 6,039 tons each, and 1,200-horse of f o w t h e o r. se T w h h e o y h w e i l e l y b e e t e h n a t t i rely theyc a w s i e l d l h w e i t v h e s i s r 0 0 ll s oafnad most onei for midable nature. There will be two of the tonnage I have mentioned, and there will also be two of a smaller tonnage, 3,368 tons, which the Board of Admiralty will have built during the autumn. They will be iron -cased, and will have the same power of resisting shots, and the same capability of defence. The late Board ordered six sloops of 200-horse power and 12 gun vessels of 18-horse power. The present Board have ordered 10 gun-boats of 60-horse power, making the total cost during the present and future financial year that we are building by centract of £1,355,807. This sum, I ought to add, includes the machinery. It is an enormous sum, over and above what we are building in our dockyards. These are the trincipal items of vote 10. We are very anxi ous to give every information on this vote. We are duly sensible of the necessity of economy in building our ships, and we trust that the inquiry which is to be moved for by my hon. friend on the labour in our dockyards will give ut great assistance herein. At present the country is in the po sition of a very wealthy gentleman who has lived very gene rously, and has not called for his bills; who has bean, in short, what is called a "fast man." If he determined te live economically for the future, the first thing he would do would be to collect his accounts. That is the first process for economising these great dockyard votes. We want to know the amount of cost and the value of stock, and then we shall look about us and see if we cannot reform. (Hear, hear.) I now turn with pleasure to vote 11 (new works, improvements, and repairs in the yards), for this is the only vote for the effective service that shows a real reduction. I believe that we have taken every sum that is requisite for keeping our dockyards in really good repair, while at the 83.1110 time we have avoided any now works except in a few cases, the vote being mostly expended in completing the work of our predecessors. I used formerly to be of opinion that many of our new works were on too grand a scale, and I confess that my visits to the dockyards have confirmed my views. I accompanied my noble friend (the Duko of Somerset) to 'Woolwich, and we looked at a magnificent building, overtopping the Thames, sad looking like some great palace. This was the new Marine Infirmary. We walked over it and paced its stately colonnades, and I am afraid we were both sordid enough to say that its architec tural magnificence cost too much money. (Hear, hear.) At Keyhsni the same remark occurred. No doubt. there are great public buildings iu our dockyards, all of them very necessary, but too much attention has, I think, in many cases been given to architectural design, and too much scope to the taste of our engineers. Now, the present Board of Admiralty disapprove greatly of any unnecessary expendi ture of this kind, and when the architects and engineers of our yards have brought us remarkably tasteful designs for our approbation we have rejected them, and asked them to give us something more simple. (Hear.) I take some pride in having kept this vote down, and I do not believe that any o o r u k o r m e a g l l o y a required dhcacekbae at n p o o m rt i s t m t e o d u . t h F Nv o i r i sstance , ubs t a i v a e l ich r vtsv w hhio a ceot seeN4isfnrsosccommenced drat.ooswrn sseaan infi nhit increase, in e crease saxe e eset y , et vb. e oo a uftir r te : n,ol a fotoB g et o obll , l2o3e a oo,y n d, footdi beyond we etnhrwee reasons h ialasa a not s dn- is miscellaneousams t nfasoekdrceimeensglaaiitsyoni ser vices :te a . orrs l er- 1 , shown in the votes,. and I now turn to vote 14—the half pay vote—to which I would ask the attention of my hen friend the member for Sunderland. He is under the idea that the non-effective charge for the navy is growing year' by year, and is becoming so great a burden as to require looking into. But so far from that, the half-pay vote for the future year shows a decrease of £27,000. This is, in fact, a yearly decreasing vote, and in a few years, as the elder officers give way to nature—(" Hear, hear," from Ad iotatoffisstacshaee the serious greatly as iodnou d dens i Ad miral Walcott)—the committee will remember my hon. and gallant friend's eloquence on that subject—the burden will hao i o n snnee i assdailhdc charge I m must now allude improvingl t a o n tdh altering vote t S h l e 2 o ,o y o s o .. tern of retirement of officers of the royal navy, with a view f ir fi va c et e ti n ns c t : s rt. the enidrteereduction Admiralty p rom i not promotion ns e s numbersunder td he o er f junior ranks of the navy. (Hear, hear.) It is not only an uof a of c pr t of t, htohef fie fleet,jesut e s rrs justice to service, t become mt I he he e fyndsbelievehif officers, roourtlehd ne b tnr u eao t necessary ntwdhi lesllbaaeellkno woi tonedd difficulty a a t ec h iur e efficiency li itt}u.wti yneepa,enrtand u o a t na di no n i n o gl n o e tnhg l e i e s r t h. be eu l a f a house t o pt certain eonadue d nt rate otothei o xs f e sr mt promotion tahllesmu mme I.v e not vwhitehn k t kept we cwohmicehtowtilhleacffeenestidthee ranksratio of lieutenant s itself no fthevote I commanders,shall bepre- pared to state to th e h ouse the particulars of the plan, and and, in some degree, the captains. This is the onlycharge I need mention under this head, with one exception. We have at last succeeded. in establishing pensions for the widows of warrant officers. (" Hear, hear," from Sir C. Napier.) lam convinced that no grant will be more ap preciated by the navy ; at present it is limited to £5OO, and that sum, I may say, we have screwed out of the Chancellor of the "Exchequer. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) but my right hon. friend h as conceded it, on All preceding Chancellors of the Excheq uer h ave resisted the t m the e grant; 1 that it is just and right. (Hear, hear.) Tho last vote to which I shall call the attention of the house is that for transport. It does not properly belong to the ex penses of the navy; but the Admiralty has to provid e a ll th e means ef ocean transport for the army. 'We have thought it right to take for the present year the large suns of £120,000 for the freight of ships on monthly pay, or for the purchase of them, besides the vote for the conveyanceof stores and troops. I may now close this statement. In doing my own feelings if I did not add thatitis with extre me pa i n so I should b e li e that I find myself compelled to be the instrument of propos ing to vote this vast sum of money for the navy. But lam convinced that it is the wish of the people of this nation that their navy should be well and efficiently maintained.-- that the country should be under no alarm—that, whatever may happen, the people may be able to say, " We are safe under the protection of our navy." Ina discussion on the defenses of the country last year, some very valuableadvice was given to the house by my hon. friend the member for Rochdale (Mr. Cobden). He thought that much of our naval force might with advantage be abolished ; but there was one passage of his speech so mar k e d by patriotism and containing su c h sound and reasonable views that I can't help reading it to the house. I believe it cannot do better than fellow the advice conveyed. The hon. member for Roch dale said " he did not wish to reduce our navy to the same force as that of France ; but he should like to see the two Governments agree on some relative proportion of force ; thus, the French navy might be two-thirds that of England —where the French had two ships England might have three." If you examine the state of the French navy you will find we have not surpassed what the hon. member for Rochdale" considered the necessary superiority of our navy tiepartsound over that of F rance. (Hear, hear.) And taking into con sideration th e strength of the Russian navy, I say we are bound ay to o co f u l continue d u lni e f our efficienttyls Government f exertions ootiilg t till wß eatp, thataiceeu though our ol n suo a g yi yto,hnoe they have agreed to these very large estimates, they do not con sider themselves bound to expend them, should circum stances render a loss amount sufficient. We thought it better to ask the house at once to grant a sufficient amount of money, and number of men, than:to apply to it again with additional votes and supplementary estimates. But if the a e pp ou ea t r ine fa nt our an a d ble t , hr t o h u e gh o o o u v t ern th m e e w nt or w ld ili g n on ot era twllyl dispute with China. thould end peacefully, if public affairs sohnoutlhdelly bound to spend the full amount of the vote, because the House has generously granted it. I thank the Hseuse for the indulgence it has extended to the statement I have made ; and I shall be glad to answer any queetioia. reference to it. On the first vote of £2,216,945 to defray the chem.@ of 54,000 officers, seamen, mai boys to be employed in her Majesty's fleet for the ensuing year, being put by the chairman, Sir J. PAK INGTON said,—When I took up the navy estimates for this year I certainly felt some curiosity to see how far the opinions the noble lord expressed last year, as to the new form in which certain votes, especially vote 10, ought to appear on the estimates, had been carried out. But I found vote 10 on the paper, wearing very much its old shape. Still, it is only just to the noble lord to say that his statement has not only been very clear, but made with that openness and candour the House of Commons has a right to expect from the Government of the day. The Government has, I admit, asked the House for un usually large estimates ; but I do not think they are larger than circumstances require; and they prove a de termination on the part of her Majesty's Government to act in the same spirit as the late Ministry. (Hear, hear.) It is the first duty of the Government of the day, as I believe it is the anxious desire of tho country, to maintain the navy in a perfectly efficient condition. There is, no doubt, great increase in the estimates, as compared with former years ; but I am willing to believe, on the authority of the noble lord, that they are not larger than the necessity of the case requires. The great expenditure is of course caused by the large ailment of men called for, and by the efforts made to increase the number of our ships. I am ex tremely glad to see by the return which was this morning pmt into our hands by the Admiralty, that the programme which I submitted to the House a year ago, on the part of the late Government, h as b een essentially carried out. (Hear.) It will be in the recollection of the committee that in the programme of last year I announced the intention of the then Government to add 15 to our line-of-battle ships, thereby increasing the numb er of effective screw line-of battle ships from 33 to 48. I see by the return before me that that programme has been exactly carried out during the year. (Cheers.) My noble friend has stated that a con siderable number more are to bo added during the ensuing year; that we are to have at least 11 additional line-of-battle ships, which will raise the number from 48 to 69, (Hear.) This leads me to an inquiry if some importance, and that is whether the present Board of Admiralty has arrived at any decision as to the number of line-of-battle ships they propose ultimately to have. (Hear.) This is a point to which I know the noble lord the Secretary of the Admiralty has de voted much attention. He has repeatedly expressed the opinion in this house that we should give up the building of line-of-battle ships, that line-of-battle ships are compara tively useless, and that we should devote our attention to the building of other classes of ships. I could not concur with the noble lord in the views he thus expressed. I never would be a party to any change of that kind till we had fully established the proper superiority of England in line-of battle ships to all the other nations of Europe. (Hear.) But I may state that, so far as the late Board of Admiralty had considered this subject, we had—l will not say definitely arrived at the conclusion—but had entertained the opinion that if this country possessed 50 efficient screw line-of -battle ships, it would be so far satisfactory as to enable us to pause and deal with this great question. (Hear.) My noble friend and all who are conversant with the subject will admit that there is strong mese& to suppose we are approaching a time when it will become a question how far these line-of-battle ships are the most effective ships of the navy. Why, we have heard this dapfrom inynoble friend, as part of the plans of the late Government, carried out by the present Government, of the building of such ships as the Mersey and the Orlando on a system which introduces a new element into this question —ships of the same tonnage as the largest in the navy, and carrying not a great number of guns, but guns of the greatest power and calibre, and forming very formidable armaments. (Hear.) Then we have changes going on in the manufacture of ordnance, and the construction of Armstrong guns, all which feirly raise the question as to the limits within which we should confine the building of line-of battle ships. (Hear.) I hope, however, that I shall not be misunderstood. De not let us pause till we have fully esta blished the superiority of this country in that description of ships. At the same time bearing in mind the great ex pense of building these ships, let us consider what will be the probable effect of the changes to which I have adverted. I should like to know, therefore, how far the Government are now layine down new ships of that class, and whether they have adopted any limit at which they may pause, and wait to see what the effects of the changes going on really are. (Hear, hear.) Last year I promised, it will be recol lected, nine screw frigates—five new, and four conversions —and I am glad to see that the promise I held out is so nearly fulfilled. Having made these remerks on the build ing of ships, allow me to say a few words on that heavy item which was the principal cause of the excess of outlay last year—the addition of men. I stated last year that we proposed an addition of 3,000 men; and subsequently we brought down supplementary estimates for 10,000 men and marines. This was a large addition ; but the noble lord has announced a still further addition, and I am bound to as sume that the proposal is made by the Government in con sequence of the strong opinion they entertain of its neces sity. lam therefore not disposed to make any complaint on the score of that addition. (Hear, hear.) lam glad to find that the Admiralty have not lost sight of the recom mendation of the commissioners to lock up a certain num ber of men in our ports. My noble friend brought some thing like a charge against me with regard to the masters of the navy. He alluded to what I had done with regard to certain officers, but said I had overlooked the masters and other classes. (Hear, hear.) Tleat is not the case, for the late Government had it in contemplation to deal with the masters and those other classes to which he re ferred, and were only prevented carrying out their inten tions .by circumstances which they could not control. I did not clearly understand what fell from my noble friend as to the office of the Controller of the Navy. Is there to be any change in the arrangements of that office. [Lord C. PAGET — lnstructions are to be given of a more direct character for its regulation.] lam happy to hear that the attention of the noble lord has been directed to this subject, as when in office I contemplated considerable changes in this department; and whatever the alterations no w proposed may be, I should like to have more definite information regarding them. I was also glad to hear what the noble lord said with regard to apprentices in our dockyards. I trust that what he proposes will have the effect of improv ing this class of workmen, and checking that tendency to political jobbery that has been under all Governments a source of great complaint and annoyance, and which I did all in my power to suppress. (Hear, hear.) The evil com plained of is a very serious one, and I hope the regulations in regard to apprentices will go a great way to check it. (Hear, hear.) I believe it is quite indispensable that this country should, within a very short period, embark in a large expenditure for the improvement of our dockyards. I am convinced that you will be unable to keep up the navy, with duo regard to economy and to the interests of the coun try, unless your dockyards are made more efficient than they are at present. (Hear, hear.) For instance, take Chatham— Lord C. PAGET—We are taking £lO,OOO with that view for Chatham. Sir J. PAKINGTON—My noble friend surely does not mean to say that .ClO,OOO will be anything like sufficient for the purpose at Chatham. He only takes that sum to con tinue and carry out a previous arrangement, on which a con siderable amount has already been expended, and to complete which a very much larger sum its required. If you intend to make Chatham a dockyard such as it ought to be, you must make up your mi n d s t o a much larger outlay. (Hoar, hear.) It only remains for me to allude to the two last subjects to which eny noble friend adverted—namely, the pensions for the widows of warrant officers and the re tirement of senior officers in the navy. With regard to warrant officers widow, I always thought it most desirable to grant such pensions, but I was not so successful in carry ing out my views in that respect as my noble friend has been, and I congratulate him on achieving a success which I was unable to attain. With respect to the retirement of officers, that is a subject to which I am glad to hear the pre sent Board of Admiralty have directed attention. There was no subject on which I felt more strongly when I left the Board than the absolute necessity of adopting some ins preyed mode of retirement, so as to remove that check to promotion which has always been a matter of just com plaint. (Hear, hear.) Ima glad that the present Board have directed their attention to the subject, and T shall wait with some anxiety to hear any explanation of their plan. I will only eidd that in follo wing my noble friend it affords me much satisfacti on to be able to speak in the tone in which I have done. (Hear, hear.) Sir C. NAPIER was glad to hear the noble lord (Lord C. Paget) not only give an exact statement of our own navy, but also of those of France and Russia. He had shown that France had 244 V 1168016 of every description ready for sea; Russia, 235 ; and England, 234. Ho had also told the com mittee that Franco could man the whole of her ships with her reserves whenever she thought proper, and he (Sir C. Napier) had seen it stated in a Paris newspaper that k ranee had not less than 90,000 men on whom she could at any time lay lands. Russia had always her fleet manned ; Eng land alone could not man her fleet. He had worked for 20 years in and out of that house, in order to see the navy placed on a proper footing. (Hear, hear.) He lead been called an alarmist and laughed at for many years on that account ; but the country had at length adopted his views and forood the present Government, as it did the last, to proceed in putting the navy in a proper condition. IYith respect to the practice of conversion, he agreed with the late First Lord that ships could be converted with advantage. The Neptune, 'the Nelson, and others, which had been converted, had turned out remarkably fine ships. He could not, however, agree in the propriety of cutting a bole' in the stern of the ship without lengthening her. In the case of such ships as the Edinburgh and the Ajax, that course had been found by experience sot to an swer. They were neither fit to sail nor to steam. They were, in fact, altogether unfit to go to sea, and if they got on a lee shore nothing on earth could save them. The navy estimates were certainly very large, but he submitted the country would get the value of their money. We never had seen the navy, in respect to ships, in a better position than it was at present. But still the country must expect to lay its account for the building of a new navy. Our groat ally was determined to have iron ships. Between him and us it had becom e a matter of the longest purse, and the question was, where were we to stop ? We had got ships, but what use were they so long as we had not mon ? It was melan choly to think that in this great maritime nation we could not raise an adequate reserve of seamen for the navy. There must be some - eation why the navy was so unpopular, and Parliament must try to get at the root of it. He could nut conceive why we should not have more marines, and keep there on sh ore , w i th the exception of about 100 on hoard each ship. A reserve for the navy must be found somewhere or other, and as there was an enormous number of fishermen and of users whose occupation was looking out for wrecks along our shore s , he should advocate th e expe di ency o f leaving recourse to a system of ballot in our maritime towns, which should include the inhabitants of those districts. The systemic under which men who lead never done a single stroke of work for the Queen were allowed to put down their names on the reserve list, and while at liberty to go where they pleased receive £6 a-year, was, he thought, by no means a good one to secure the object we had in view. The course which ho should pursue would be to leave to every seaman when his ship was paid off the option of being placed in the re serve or not as he might think proper, allowing him to count two years towards his pension for every three years' service. At present the Admiralty had no means of knowing what men entitled to pensions had refused to take them. The Admi ralty ought to know those men, and if it could once be made known that 4,000 men had entered the reserve, the intelli gence would spread throughout the merchant service, and the reserve would soon be filled up. If the force could not be filled up with Z 6, then a calculation must be made whether it would not be cheaper with a larger sum than the maintenance of a large force at sea. Anoth er po i n t w hi c h ho must mention related to tho Channel fleet, which the Admiralty did not seem to know how to manage when they got it. Some time since there was mutiny, or something like it. On board the Liffey there was a disturbance, shot rolled about, mess traps broken, and other disorders. In that case the Achuireity did not take proper steps, but sim ply gave NVA,Y and the mon gained their point. Something of the same sort happened on board the Caesar on a clues- tion of leave. The complaint was, he thought, a just one. When ships were fitting out in harbour. there was plenty of leave, but now whenever a ship was out of harbour she was sent to Portland, while the drills went on, a period most irksome to the men, and when the utmost indulgence should bo g ranted. In th a t way t h e disturbance arose en board the Caesar, and the Admiralty, instead of sending the squadron to sea, and sending the Caesar to the West Indies, allowed the men to remain the victors. In the Mediter ranean, on board the flagship Marlborough, there was also a disturbance, and that was passed over. Then came the Princess Royal, the worst case of all. She came from the Mediterrancen, and, according to a very proper arrange ment, another ship was ready to which th e crew was to be transferred ; but there were three classes of men on board —the bounty men and the continuous service men, upon whom the Admiralty had a claim, and those who had en tered generally, upon whom they had no claim. 'When the captain loft the ship the men cried out, " Pay off," and then the Admiralty ought to have had a member of the Board down to inquire into the matter, but, instead of doing so, they gave way. The continuous service men and the bounty men should have been sent on board the Queen, and the others should have been required to return their stores, which would have occupied them for three weeks, and then they should have been told that their services were not required further. Then, when there was a ship launch, and the Queen came down, the men ought to have had leave from Saturday to Monday, but instead of that one-half had leave and the rest had not. That, of course, created dissa tisfaction, and a cry of "All or none." The Admiral very properly said " None," but unluckily the liberty men had been landed and were taken back from the dockyard gates. It was an error to order those men back, although he would not say whose error it was. Ho must say, to the credit of the seamen, that it was not true that they had deserted in great numbers after taking the bounty, for he had seen a return showing that since bounty was given desertions had been fewer than before. Everyone knew how easy it was for sailors to .desert, but he did not think the Admiralty took proper means to punish desertion. He would punish every man, even with transportation, who took the bounty not intending to remain in the service. There was another evil in the service in respect to leave. 'When he was in Lisbon harbour, he found that no leave was ever given there, but he granted leave to the men to go on shore. The men got drunk and made rows, and complaints were made to him, and he got the police of Li s b on t o t a k e up every drunken English sailor and put him into prison, the consequence of which was, that all complai n t s soon cease d . If the same thing were done for a short time, it would soon put an end to such misconduct. It might be said this could not be done in England, but they could station a guard ship close to where the men landed, warn them, and if they broke their leave or behaved ill place them on board as prisoners. There need be no difficulty in giving men leave, and getting rid of those irregularities which were subversive of all discipline. The men wculd thus also be made much more comfortable and happy than they were at present. There was another point to which he wished to advert. If a ship were paid off with the crew, it was attended with great expense; but if they were trans ferred to another ship directly, and the ship turned over to the superintendent of the dockyard to return her stores, the whole might be effected with much regularity and economy. He trusted the Admiralty would take steps to remedy all the evils ho had pointed out; especially let them see flat the men had leave atoll times in moderation, and that th e y were punished if they behaved improperly — iusprison e d if they got drunk on shore and behaved in a , I:eorde r ly man ner. A great deal had lately b een d one f or seamen in giv ing them their traps, allotments, arei paying them once a month, and they might treat ast severely as they pleased those who were guilty of breaches of discipline if they only did them justice. In the Baltic a disturbance broke out on board one of the ships of the fleet. lie desired an inquiry to be made to see if there were any grievances, and, it' so, that they should be redressed. Grievances were found to exist : they were redressed, and the evil did not extend as it might have done, to other ships in the fleet. He had laboured long to have tho money put on a proper footing, and he would never rest satisfied till it was properly manned, and till the mengot redress of every evil they had any:reason to complain of. They could not now be treated as they formerly were. The men were more enlightened, and they expected more indulgence. (Hear, from Mr. Williams.) The hon. member for Lambeth may cry " Hear," as if lie wanted popularity ; but he would not put an end to flogging for all that. He would flog but he would flog in a proper manner. (A laugh.) If a man behaved ill, he would try him by court-martial and punish him. Ide was not afraid to say so. The men themselves would not live in a ship if there was no discipline. A ship wouldbo a hell upon earth without discipline, and if the hon. member for Lambeth succeded in abolishing corperal punishments in the navy to morrow ho would not get the thanks of the men. (fear.) Sir J. ELPHINSTONE thanked the noble lord for his clear and business-like statement, which he had heard with peculiar pleasure. With regard to the pensions to warrant officers' widows, he wished to know whether the arrange ment was to be retrospective as recommended by the naval commission. If not, he should never suspend his agitation till that grievance was redressed. The present allowance as outfit for a petty officer when raised to a warrant officer was £3O, but was quite inadequate, and these was often found great difficulty in getting proper min to come forward for the warrant, because pensions ee ere taken away from their widows. With regard to boys, the commission recom mended that schoolehips should be established at all the principal commercial ports. Provision was to be made for 2,400 boys, besides those who came forward voluntarily to be afterwards absorbed into the mercantile and Royal ma rine. He found no vote taken for school ships, and he wanted to know what was the intention of the Government in that respect. lie had heard from various ports, such as Hull, Greenock, Aberdeen; and Dundee, that these school ships were looked for with great interest, and there was son siderable disappoiptment that the recommendation of the commission hart not been carried into effect. When the boys went net board ship, a number of them were employed as Akira' servants. He objected to that, as being a most prejudicial employment for boys ; under such a system they became neither good seamen nor good servants. (Hear.) There was another point. In the Marine Artillery ser geants were paid 3d. a day less than in the Royal Artil lery. He thought the pay should be equalized. The pay of captains of men-of-war was also inadequate : they could not maintain their position without trenching on their pri vate means. The number of midshipmen in the service was utterly insufficient, and in many of the vessels in which young men entering the service were expected to qualify themselves for passing a high competitive examination there were no naval instructors. The establishment of the naval reserve had not been attended with the success that could have been wished. Various causes had contributed to this result. The bounty had operated greatly against the re serve, as had also the disturbance in the Princess Royal. Again, the Admiralty had not taken the proper steps for making the advantages of service in the reserve sufficiently known. They should take a leaf out of the Horse Guards book, and employ active petty officers at the different ports, in the same way as recruiting sergeants were now employed on behalf of the army. In a town like Portsmouth it might be expected that a regular office for the enlistment of sea men would be open ; yet hon. gentlemen would be sur prised to hear that the only place where anything of the kind was conducted was the house of Mrs. Eliza Wainer, a woman who understood where sailors were to be found and what they looked fur. (A laugh.) l'roper docks and ac commodation ought to be provided for our skips. His be lief was that if the Princess Royal had had a basin to go into the disturbance on board that vessel would never have occurred. Mm-. WHITBREAD said that, however carefully the Admiralty might prepare its progranune, it was necessary to bear in mind that it was liable to derangement from many disturbing causes. It was impossible to fix upon a stan dard for our force, and say that that was the proper amount of naval strength for this country to keep up. That force must always depend upon what was done by other coun tries; and it was only by watching the growth of foreign navies —whether in line-of -battle ships, frigates, or iron ships—that we could arrive at any just estimate of our own requirements. With regard to the duties of the Comptrol ler of the Navy, changes wore now in progress in his office, and when those changes were completed there would be no hesitation in furnishing the information which the right hon. baronet desired. The dockyards would be kept in a proper state of repair with the sum taken in the present estimates, although large works, which would certainly have to be undertaken some time or other, had been post poned in the different yards. The right hon. baronet would bo glad to learn that the Government had faced the somewhat difficult question connected with Chatham. It was in contemplation to extend that yard, and the Board, having considered the deficiency of accom modation in the eastern arsenal and the dockyard, had come to the conclusion—looking to the natural disadvantages of Sheerness, and to the objections, in a military point of view, to the Isle of Grays—that St. Mary's Island was the only direction in which the dockyard accommodation should be enlarged. A great deal of the unhappy feeling excited in the case of the Princess Royal had arisen from the fact that the officers were in the habit of obtaining leave when the ship was paid oft; while the men were restricted. The offi cers had now been placed on the same footing as the men in this respect, and not a murmur had been heard in the case of any of the ships that had since been paid off. lie con curred fully in the opinions of the hon. baronet (Sir J. D. Blphinstone) as to the value of a reserve force, and he hoped that by carefully studying the feelings and the interests of the men mxch would in time be done to make the service popular and respected. (Hear.) Sir J. PAKINGTON, in explanation, said he did not in tend to suggest that there should be or could be anything like a permanent standard of li ne - o f-b a ttl e ships. But he thought there was a point at which, our navy having at tained to a position of sufficient superiority, it would he well to pause in regard to laying down new line-of-battle ships until the Admiralty had ascertained the effect of the great changes effected lately in naval science. (Hoar.) Mr. W. WILLIAMS moved that the Chairman report progress. (" Oh 1") Lord PALMERSTON hoped that his hon. friend would not press his motion, the universal wish of the committee apparently being that some votes should be taken. (Hear.) Mr. WILLIAMS would withdraw his motion on the un derstanding that no more speeches were to be made. (A laugh.) . _ Admiral WALCOTT thanked the noble lord (C. Paget) for his perspicuous statement and the honesty of purpose by which it was characterised, and said he derived ad ditional satisfaction in recognising in the gallant officer one of his professional brethren and an ornament to the service. (Hear.) He (Admiral Walcott) fully admitted the prudence of the measure taken to maintain our navy in perfect strength and efficiency. Vigour disarmed hos tility and deterred a would-be opponent from breaking the peace, whereas a timid policy only encouraged aggres sion. (Hear.) Last year he recommended the noble lord to give the Surveyor of the Navy a higher position in the service by making him an honorary member of the Board. This change would entail no additional expense on the country, and would enable the surveyor to give his opinions with much greater freedom and effect than at present. He also suggested that there were occasions when it would be to the benefit of the service that a Board should be consti tuted, consisting of the m os t em i nent men in every branch of naval architecture, to meet f rom ti me t o t i me an d rev i ew the suggestions made for the improvement of ship-building by those who made it their study. With regard to the personnel of the navy, it was only right that the officers, should be assured of certain rewards for the exhibition of seal and the perf ec t acqu i rement of professional knowledge, while every promise made to the men should be rigidly adhered to. He hoped he was to understand that the 2,000 boys mentioned by the noble lord were to be brought into the service annually (" Hear," from Lord C. Paget) ; but two ships were not sufficient for them. No more than 500 boys ought to be on board the same vessel. Had his suggestions upon the service of boys been followed some years ago, the present want of sailors would not have been experienced. As to the relative strength of the Russian and Punch navies, to which allusion had been made, it was of the highest importance, looking to the enormous extent of the commerce, the remoteness of many of our most valuable dependencies, the uncertainty of our political relations, and the uncertainty also of peace, that our own navy should be kept in the m)st efficient state, for our naval supremacy was a matter of life and death to this country. With regard to the disturbances on board the Princess Royal, he defended the conduct of Admiral Bowles, than whom there was not in the profession a man animated by mere kindly sentiments, of greater experience, and more reliable judgment, and one who had contributed m ore largely in time and in money to forwarl every in stitution likely to benefit the service. (Hoar, hear.) Mr. BENTINCK expressed his concurrence in the well merited tribute which had been paid to the able statement of the noble Secretary to the Admiralty, and he was very glad to find the estimates such as to afford the hope that the navy was about to be placed on the footing it ought to be. Ills noble friend said that there was an impression that the coun try did not get the full value for the mon , y expende t. tie believed that impression to be correct.; and he was of opinion that the circumstance was owing to the system on which the Board of Admiralty was constructed. Ills noble friend ad verted to a time when it might be possible to reduce the ex penditure for the navy, but, considering the state of affairs in Europe, he looked forward to an incie .se rather than redac tion of expense. Ile wished t 3 know what steps had been taken to supply the deficiency of naval instructors on board line -of-battle s hips in commission. General UPTON suggested that there should be an entry of boys In the interior as well as at the ports. Colonel DICKSON inquired whether there were no means by which the ships of the Royal navy might be made service able for the conveyance of troops. Lord C. PAGET said arrangements were made for the sup ply of chaplains and naval instructors combined. The entry i of boys was not confine I to the coast, and the Admiralty j would be very glad to re ce i ve th em from the interior. With respect to the conveyance of troops, men-of-war might be used for that purpose, but the crews must first of all be I trained to discipline. Mr. LINDSAY, thinking that the whole policy of the in crease in the estimates should be fully discussed, moved that the Chairman report progress; but, on an appeal Irons Mr. S. HERBERT, subsequently withdrew the motion. The vote was then agreed to, as were also the following : £1,476,757, for the wages of seamen and marines. £1,458,087, for victuals. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the House re sumed PROBATE AND ADMINISTRATION (INDIA) BILL. This Bill was read the third time and passed. OF This Bill was read L the secondPROPERTY BILL. time. The House adjourned at half-past 12 o'clock. THE LATE SIR WILLIAM WIER. The death of a good soldier and a great historian cannot be allowed to pass witheut special record. Had William Francis Patrick Napier been simply a titled survivor of the Peninsular war, he would have figured with some note in the obituary of the year, but his service in the field, gallant as it was, has been eclipsed by his labours in the study, and he now stands, and will stand for ages, in the eyes of his corntrymen as the chronicler of their country'a greatest exploits. This literary celebrity, the centroversies by which it was attended, and tb renown concurrently acquired by other mem bers of the family, have served to identify the name of Napier with the military glories of England, and to familiarise the minds of thousands with that prominent character whose departure from the scene is this day announced. Despite the remoteness which seems now to characterise the figures of the great Duke's genera tion, Sir William Napier was not of very advanced age. Though he entered the army in the last cen tury, and fought his last fight almost 50 years ago, he was only 74 when he was overtaken by death. In his days men began work early. The first of his nine commissions found him a lad of fourteen, and he was but little over twenty when he went to that great war which he afterwards undertook to describe. His extraction is remarkable enough to deserve some mention, for one of his grandfathers was actually the grandson of King Charles 11., and the other succeeded to the family title while Marl borough was conducting the campaign of Ramilies. In that year, 1706, a certain Francis Scott became Lord Napier. By a first marriage ho produced a line of sons, from one of whom descended the pre sent Admiral Sir Charles Napier ; by a second marriage he had a son named George. This George, in the year 1781, took to wife the Lady Sarah, daughter of the second Duke of Richmond, great-granddaughter of the Second Charles, and previously the wife of Sir Thomas Banbury. From that union there issued a progeny of heroes, of whom William was the third. Shortly after the young ensign's first appoint ment, certain military measures were adopted by , the Government, which produced results of an ex traordinary and probably unexpected kind. The rupture of the peace of Amiens, and the renewal of hostilities with France, had been signalised by a menace of invasion on the part of Napoleon, more overt and more formidable than any which had preceded. The country was reasonably alarmed, I and took steps for its defence by building Niartello towers along the south-eastern coast, and cutting the Royal Military Canal between Folkestone and Hythe. Fortunately, something else was done too. On the heights above Sandgate, on the very place where the Shorncliffe huts now stand, a small army of observation was stationed, under the command of Sir John Moore, and there, in a sort of perma nent camp, of which the vestiges remained till the other day, this force was trained and exerci,ed by that able general, until the military genius of the nation acquired a development altogether new. Among the tactical reforms introduced was one di rected to the improvement of light infantry as a de sirable arm of the service, and certain regiments in particular were selected as the objec is of this special instruction. When, therefore, after the lapse of a year or two the thunder-cloud on the heights of Boulogne had been scattered, and the forces of Eng land rendered available for foreign campaigns, Sir John Moore's picked corps appeared brigaded to gether in a distinct division. At first, perhaps, no great importance was attached to the phenomenon, though there must have been something striking even in the aspect of these battalions, for Larpent, when noting in his diary the arrival of troops in the Peninsula, speaks particularly of a " light corps" just come—" very fine; much thought of by the ladies." After a very short time, however, this " Light Division," with its constituent regi ments, the 43d, the 52d, and the 95th, acquired and maintained such incomparable renown as to attract the admiration of Europe. Among all the divisions of the Peninsular army— famous though they were—this was the most distin guished; and in this, happily for himself and for his History, young Napier served. Exchanges wore not so common in those days as at present, and it is with the Light Division, and with the 43d Regi met of Foot, that Sir William's active services are almost exclusively identified. The traces of this intimate connection are visible in every page of his " History of tle War," and one of the principal charms, indeed, of the narrative arises from the singular circumstantiality and vividness with which every movement of this celebrated force is depicted. Readers of all classes will remember the painting of the story as the 95th—" Barnard's swarthy vete rans"—are brought into battle, or when the 43d, not only in a mass but by companies, and even by men, are ranged upon the field; though the fall fervour of the historians's recollections seems to have been reserved for the 52d, of which even in his latest volume he speaks as "a regiment never surpassed in arms since arms were first borne by men." If we say that th e ac ti ve serv i ce o f Si r Wi ll i am Napier was commensurate with the services of the Light Division in the Peninsula, we shall have said quite enough to define and establish his claims as a working soldier. It is true that he was in the ex pedition to Copenhagen in 1807, and that he was not on the retired list in 1815, but the Peninsula is the sphere of his duty and his experience ; nor did he as an effective member of his profession ever overstep tho capacity of a regimental officer. At first his promotion was rapid ; but, though he entered the war a captain, he left it only a lieut.- colonel, and it was with this rank alone, and upon the half-pay establishment of the 43d Foot, that he made his first appearance before the public in the new character of a military bistoriau. At what period of his career, or with what in ducements he originally conceived the design whic h he executed so worthily we cannot say, but from 1824 to 1840 he was unremittingly engaged, as he himself informs us, upon the " History of the Pen insular War." That history bad not yet been satisfactorily written. The war itself, disparaged at first, and but insufficiently appreciated even after its final triumphs, invited a better pen than it had found. The great Duke once entertained the idea of becoming the historian of his o wn campaigns, or, at an y rate, .of bequeathi ng the materials to his executors. Sir George Murray also thought of entering the field, but Col. Napier advanced beyond these preliminary conceptions. He undertook the task, and accomplished it—with what success Europe now know s . Th e mer i t o f this remarkable work is best and most comprehen sively expressed in the single fact of its popularity and its fame ; for seldom has a book been com menced with less immediate promise of circulation or favour. The author had, a good military con- nection, but he enjoyed as yet no literary position, and so far was he from being recognised as the man for the task that a certain officer of rank on whom he waited for information told him his production would only be an ephemeral affair, and that elabo rate plans would be thrown away upon it. The spirit, moreover, or as we may say the bias of the work was directly opposed to the opinions of those times. It offended Englishmer, for it assailed the still dominant policy of Toryism, and conceded in finitely more credit to Napoleon, to his system, and to his troops than the prejadices of the country had yet allowed. It offended Spaniards, for it brushed away the brag of the nation, and reduced the en thusiasm and efforts of the patriot armies to dimen sions more consistent with fact. " I cared not," avowed the historian in his very preface, " to swell my work with apocryphal matter, and neglected the thousand winding currents of Spanish warfare to follow that mighty stream of English battle which burst the barriers of the Pyrenees, and left deep traces of its fury on the soil of France." Frenchmen it might possibly conciliate, for it re corded their military merits with uncommon can dour, but to no other sympathies did it seem ad dressed; and, above all, white depicting the war and its glories in unprecedented colours, it im peached the policy out of which the contest bad arisen, and attacked the spirit in which it was conducted. Opinions like these brought on the author's head a perfect storm of obloquy, which, with the family genius for improving a contro versy, he contrived rather to aggravate than as suage. He was accused not only of professional incapacity under a thousand forms, but of poli tical and almost moral heresies without number. Among other imputations, he, the grandson of a peer and the great-great-grandson of a King, found himself charged with a malignant and democratic hostility to aristocratic birth—an attack which he quietly repelled by observing that ho was at least as nobly connected as the people he was said to be decrying. It can hardly be denied that the " History of the Peninsular War" did really present indications of a distinct, and for those times au unusual, bias. Its opening sentence, for example, might almost have figured in a certain pamphlet of Mr. Cobden, and its comparative delineations of French and English systems might possibly have been considered unnational, as nationality had been recently under stood. But so to regard the work was to be blind to its real import and character ; nor was the in stinctive acuteness of the public long in discovering the truth. However the author might be infected with the heresy of political opposition, his charac teristic dedication of his work to the Duke, and the genuine sentiments with which its every page was underlaid, soon proved that its real and sole object was to erect a fitting monumtnt of British glory as achieved by British arms. That was the aim of the historian, and as the development of the history showed it gradually and triumphantly at tained, the angry clamours of the Strangfords, the Beresfords, and the Percevals ware left to die unheededly away. Against the current of popular and political prejudice, the work forced its way by its intrinsic fascinations to the summit of public favour. It is not, in reality, either constructed or composed on a popular model. It is by no means easy reading, and, though not a purely military history, is technical in its details and severe in its style. It is a work which at first sight would be thought likely to commend itself to ordinary readers desirous of learning how the great war in the Penin sula was fought, and yet, though these obstacles were to be encountered on the threshold, and though the ground had been occupied by favourite and attractive writers, the supre macy of Napier's History soon became incon testable. The truth is, bes'.des the genuine nationality of its object and its tone, there was a dignity in the treatment and a living verity in the descriptions which led the mind un resistingly captive. Never before had such scenes been portrayed, norwith such wonderful colouring. As event after event was unfolded in the panorama, not only the divisions and the brigades, but the very regiments and regimental officers of the Peninsular army became familiarised to the public eye. Marches, combats, and battles came out upon the canvas with the fidelity of photographs, while the touches by which the effect was produced bespoke, not the ingenuities of historic art, but the involun tary suggestions of actual memory. The shrillness of Crawfurd's scream at Busaco as lie ordered the Light Division to charge was probably ringing in :he author's ears as he wrote ; and the whole scene upon the Coa, with the little drummer boy beating the charge, the French officer, " in a splendid uni form," leaping on the bridge, and the surgeon tend ing the wounded in the midst of the fire, must have risen before his eyes as he drew it. For the sake of painting like this—for the sake of an eloquence unknown before, and devoted unreservedly to the recompense of British valour, people readily forgave the prepossessions or deficiencies of the work. If its spirit was haughty, it was also so national.and so public that the very haughtiness was becoming; if its style trenched upon bombast, such loftiness of language did but correspond with the grandeur and heroism of the deeds described ; and when the magnificence of its diction culminated into sublimity in the stories of Albuera and Badajoz, every reader felt that the theme and the treatment were consis tent with each other. The completion of this extraordinary work not only established Col. Napier's fame as an author, but contributed probably, in conjuncti on w ith t h e brilliant services of his brother Charles, to improve even his professional position. He had indeed earned in the fair discharge of military duty allthe promotien, which now overtook him, for he had borne an active and distinguished part throughout a protracted war, and was justly entitled to the gradual advancement reserved for its survivors. Still, it can hardly be doubted that the brother of Sir Charles Napier and the historian of the Peninsular war commanded a greater respect than would have been paid to the half-pay officer of the 43d, and when the red riband of the Bath and the colonelcy of a regiment was added to the promotions arriving by seniority the public was gratified at the recognitions evinced. Yet Sir William Napier remained Napier still, and clashed against the opinions of men as rudely in his later as in his earlier days. As the Light Division ac counts for one period of his life, and his " History" for a second, so his advocacy of Sir Charles Napier's excellence in every capacity may be taken for the business of a third. The spirit of the family has been uniformly clannish, in excess even of the Scottish standard, but Sir William's devotion to the reputation of his brother is almost without n wito ques tion ta parallel. On this point he would boo at any hands. In the lonian Islands, in India . , in the command of a home district—wherever S ir dCihdar his Charl esright. as stationed,l'lieand historian whatever o f the he wu acts N apier w were in the Peninsula ev en resumed his pen, for his brother's sake, to w rite the "Conquest of &h i d e ," and so wholly must his heart have been in the task that his alleged preference of this work to his great ach i eveme nt is not quite incredible. Even wh en the life and services of Sir Charles had terminated together, Sir William still stood champion over his grave, and at the most critical period of Indian for the reputation of his brother, debates his c w hi h e i f eh an i z n ie t t h y es w e a d s discussions he thought might possibly be impugned. How little measure he observed in the controversies which this devo tion provoked—how repulsively he treated the consideration which all were ready to bestow we need not stop to remark. His labours and his quarrels are now ended, and as Sir Charles's death proved the signal for the universal oblivion of his faults, and the unqualified recognition of his vir tues, so with the life of Sir William will all those acrimonies cease which his intractable pen was but too apt to occasion. The public will forget the controversialist, or remember him only to reflect that even in the least fortunate of his encounters he never proposed to himself an unworthy aim. The image which will remain impressed upon its me• mery is that of a 'noble soldier who. did his duty la. one of England's greatest wars, and who attn. wards redoubled this service by rais ing for his. country an imperishable monument a the glory site had acquired.— in les. lIN