The Sun. — London, England, 1829-02-20 00:00:00

le Throne. While I am upon this subject I must make an observation upon what just now fell from my Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Eldon) upon the sup- posed bargain that is to be made upon this subject. I can assure him, that when I came to the consideration of the whole question, it appeared to me absolutely impossible either for the Government or for the Parliament to take it under its observation, with a view to the repeal of the disabilities (on which my opinion was formed on the state of the case itself ), without,- in the first instance, and as the first step, putting an end to the existence of this Asso ciation. I have not only made no bargain, but I have not even held a conversation with any man in which it was contemplated to purchase concession of the claims by suppression of the Association.—(Hear.)—l propose the Bill before you as a measure necessarily preliminary even to entering upon the discussion of the claims. In fact, in my opinion, any other made of proceeding would be in consistent with the dignity of the Crown, and with the ho nour and character of Parliament. Moreover, I conceive this mode of proceeding absolutely necessary in order is reconcile the subsequent measure I shall propose to many good men in this country, who have viewed not only with distrust, but with dismay, the violence of the proceed ings of the Catholic Association. I also entreat your Lordships to reflect, that we have the eyes of all Europe upon us, and that we must do nothing that can give any man the slightest ground to believe that we are making any Sacrifice, excepting on the ground of policyand expediency. (Hear, hear.) Before I proceed to detail to your Lord- Ships, as far as lies in my power, the nature of the mea sure I propose fur your adoption for the suppression of the Catholic Association, I will call your attention for a few momentsto what has been hitherto done, in order to effect the same object both with respect to this and other Asso ciations. I believe as far back as the year 1757 it was usual for what was called a Catholic Committee to be in existence in Ireland, but tile practice seems to have fallen so much into disuse, that in 1791 there is reason to be lieve, from an historical document recently discovered, that the minis of the Members of this Committee were not known. It seldom consisted of more than six members, Lenclihavein 1791 their- names were not sfi either to the tioVernme n t or to other persons. This . t . ;:dnatititiCe has ce r t a i n l y grown to a size of much more im• Strtance since that date, and various attempts, at different periods, were made, both by prosecutions at common law, and by incidental Acts of Parliament, to prevent the meet ing of what was now called the Association, In 1791 as well as in 1824, it was not the opinion of the best autho rities that the Association was illegal, either in its form or in its Constitution. The Government, however, was fully sensible of the inconvenience of its existence, and in 1825 ti lasts was passed by Parliament for its suppression. This Act, I believe, was drawn by some of the ablest men and Most eminent lawyers that had appeared for a great number of years, two of whom have now seats in this House ; my Noble Friend on the cross-bench was also then on the Woolsack. It proved totally inefficient for any purpose for which it was designed s and looking at the law as an un learned individual, it seems to me extraordinary how it ever could have. been expected to be effectual. It permitted Sotitteett meetings of the Association ; and besides these rotteen meetings there were six subjects which they blight discuss;—.l. Religions Worship. 2. Education. 8* Science. 4. Manufactures. 5. Commerce. And 6. Adtitulture. Upon these topics a meeting might at any time be held without a siolation of the provisions of the Statute.. Under these circumstances, as it appears to me, it would be impossible to carry the law into execu tion in any one instance, notwithstanding the persons in tended to be dispersed repeatedly and openly declared their determination to evade it. Ido not blame the Adminis tration existing at that time, or the Government of Ire land, for not carrying this Act into execution. I know there were other reasons than those I have already stated why they could not do this, and those reasons arose out of the divided state of the Government at that moment—a division which had pervaded their deliberations in every question that arose with respect to Ireland. If your Lord ships will look at the progress of this question for sonic time past, you will see the effect of that division. If your Lordships will look back on what has taken place with re ssect to the itornan Catholic Question for a period of some years up to the present day—if you will look at and exa mine the Records of Parliament itself, you will find there has been a growing opinion in favour of that question from the time when the discussions on it were begun by the Right Hon. Gentleman under whose auspices it was first brought forward, to the present moment. The question was then Put in the form of a proposition submitted to the two Houses, calling on them to declare, that they would take the 'object into consideration with a view of removing the disabilities of the Catholics. If Noble Lords will consider the opinions of all those Members of bath Houses who have declared them:mites in favour of such consideration of the question, notwithstanding they might differ from the Right Hon. Gentlemen as to the conclusion to which they might arrive on the question itself—if you will consider these thi ngs, and at the same time remember, that from that t ime forward nearly every Gentleman who has come into parliament from that part of the kingdom has taken up the question favourably for the Catholics, and that a great Catholic influence has been growing up .in Ireland, you will see some reason for the difficulties in which the Go vernment has been placed. For many years, for reasons which it is not necessary now to enter upon—for many years, I say, this question was never failed to Ire touched upon whenever an opportunity was offered. From the year 1811 to the present time, that has been the case; and from the year 1811, a divided Go vernment has existed—and since then this question has been gaining ground. I will not stay now to enter into a detail of the mode in which that divided Government had hitherto acted upon this question ; but I will state that no discussion, whether the question regarded legisla tion generally, or the amendment of the criminal law, or the tithes, was ever suffered to go by without the introdue tino of this great question. It did not signify what was the subject of discussion, this question always came under c onsideration in the course of it—this great question, the `lose of which I hope we are now approaching. I say, t herefore, that I should be highly to blame if I were to cast a ny imputation on the Officers of the Government for not carrying into complete execution the law of 1825. It was not their fault, but it was owing to circumstances which attended the existence of a divided Government. With .ddreea froi rt*pect to the Association, and the law by which it was endeavoured to put down and suppress that Association, that law failed under the circumstances I have alluded to. I will not state what are the projects which we proposed to eff ect that o bj ect ; b u t I w ill say of the measures now be fore the House, that we du not pretend that these measures are ordinary measures that ought to be adopted on every n ; c43 lon• On the contrary, we say that they are extraor 42arY measures, to execute which extraordinary means have been devised, and that we have great reason to hope that they will never occur again. We do not propose them as precedents to be adopted, but as precedents to be ",,°lded in future, and we hope that they will only be ap- I t ' h "ed under those particular circumstances which now call lir into existence. I will now state something of the d ec i a lt r s e ti lfs By the first clause the Catholic Association is Lord e' for ever abolished ; by the subsequent clauses the or AaLteutenant has the power of declaring any Association ta d' "'nbly illegal, and of appointing Magistrates to proceed Is Perse that Association or Assembly. These Magistrates M agistrat es be in any number, but not less than two. These have the power to order the assembly to dis- Pente; and if they do not disperse within a quarter oan hour, the persons not dispersing are liable to be brou f ght before two Magistrates, and on conviction to be impri -Bnned for a time specified. There are further provisions Which go to deprive any Association of the power of collect ing- tnoney Such are the provisions of this Bill, and I !rust it will not be liable to the observation which has been 7 : l ade'esiith. respect to the Act of 1825—namely, that there 14 a road open t h roug h i t w id e enoug h t o a d m i t a coac h an d 1 . °°!.. I hope that if there be any inadvertenciea in its Preparation they may be remedied ; for my Noble Friend "nn made that observation has admitted that if this Bill ra Plitsed, it is desirable it should be passed in such a man ner As to render it effectual. I shall not trouble your Lo rdships with any further observations, but shall simply 1110 10 that this Bill be now read a second time. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE had but few obser vations to address to their Lordships on this subject. He r° 44 l leave the present measure to appeal on its own merits Liathe appro b at i on o f P ar li ament . I t did nu t mee t w ith entire approval, even in its present state; but he was c° ° tent to make no serious opposition to it, as he looked „ "Pon it b ut as part o f t h a t grea t measu r e which was about ° be propos e d to Parliament, and which he looked to as the ' 4l measure of relief to Ireland. He considered that mea 14re as the most important, as it went to the root of the " 11 ; and without that being done, the circumstances which Were stated as those that rendered the present Bill necessary Would still continue ; while, if this Act alone was passed vt ithout being accompanied by that other important measure, there would be an end to the liberties of Ireland. He was c , ( l ) neinced that as long as the laws of exclusion continued, "ht Bill would be unequal to destroy the Association, which 1145 founded on the sentiment of irritation, created by long exclusion from their rights. As long as these excluding lan', continued a Bill like this would be ineffectual ; for less they would suppress those hearthurnings out of which ine Ass oc i at i on h a d ar i sen—un l ess , i n d ee d, th e y wou ld d thel' tr aY the best feelings that exalt human nature — ferment lately existing in Ireland would still continue. 1411 th! dioabilitieo rumaincda the Wad vi uniou Ai among the Catholi a would still retein its strength. The present Bill had oie i e tontientlation of no slight im portance to his mind, and that was its impartiality. It was equally directed against Catholics and Oritit e emen. He did not seek to justify associations in general, nor did he approve of their collecting any rent whatever. He owned that they were perfectly incompatible with any principle of good government ; but he must say, that he thought the Catholics had adopted that course because the Orangemen had done so before them ; and when the Noble Duke spoke of the mischief of such societies, lie should be reminded that there were societies of the same kind in this country as well as in Ireland. He trusted that the principle of impartiality lie had noticed in the Bill would be fully acted upon, and that it w„ulcl be ad ministered with strict impartiality. Although at this moment he agreed with the propriety of putting down the Association, he could not but think that it had been of some advantage to Ireland, and that the great measure which was shortly to be proposed was owing, in no slight degree, to the embarrassment under which the Government felt itself with regard to that country. However, from whatever cause it might have arisen, he was willing to give this measure, as the forerunner of the other, his most cordial support. The Earl of LONGFORD objected to the Orange and Catholic Associations being compared together. There was not one thing in which they were alike. When, three or four years ago, Parliament had declared Associations like the Catholic Association illegal, the Orange Societies had separated immediately; but the Catholic Association, in spite of the law, and in defiance of its provisions, continued to carry on its operations, and thus to deride and insult the Legislature. The Catholic Association had arrogated to itself all the power of a Parliament, and had insolently de rided this Parliament and its haws; and yet it was com pared to the Orange Societies, which, on the expression of the opinion of Parliament, had dissolved themselves at once. Tie first had aliewn a clear determination not to submit to the law—the latter had at once yielded obedience to it. Besides the Catholic Association had pretended to usurp a prerogative which had hitherto been considered as the peculiar attribute of the Crown, and had affected to confer honours on their Members. He knew all that was a mummery, but he contended that it shelved the animus of the Association. That formed a serious cause for passing this or almost any other law to remedy such an evil, and to sup press an Association arrogating to itself such power. It was, or at least pretended to be, a sort of Government ; and there was no precedent for such a - thing, except in the existence of the Jacobin Club, which, at the time of the French Revo lution, exercised the powers of a Government at the same moment with the Convention, or the Constituent Assembly, he did not know which—hut with what was then the ruling power in France. Even there, however, in the con fusion which then prevailed, in times the most distem pered that could he imagined, the co-existence of the two was deemed impossible ; and after a struggle the Club was suppressed. The Courts of Law had lately held, that any member of those Societies which had lately existed in this country, for a variety of different purposes, was liable for any injury the society might commit, or for any contract they might enter into ; and he thought the same principle ought to be applied to the Society now the subject of their Lordships' deliberation ; and that every member of it ought to be made personally responsible fur any wrong which had been committed by the body. Their Lordships had litt'e idea how beneficial such a measure would be, nor what was the amount of injury done by the Association. The com parison between the Catholic and Orange Societies, he re peated, was unjust ; not only was there no danger in the last, but they never had shewn any—even the slightest in tention of defying or evading the law. Their whole inten tion had been to protect the Government and the people of the country from being overpowered by that Association, without the existence of which, this Bill never would have become necessary. Ile should only add, that he gave the Bill his most cordial support. Lord TEYNHAM (we believe) thought the Orange So cieties fully as dangerous as the Catholic Association.— Among them, men had been heard to declare themselves ready to fight up to their knees in the blood of their fel low-subjects. Under these circumstances, he thought it best for the peace of England, as well as Ireland, that all such societies should be put down. It was clear that they had all the same object---Namely, to destroy the power of the Government, and to erect their own upon its ruin.— With regard to the Irish Associations, it was clear they had done many unwarrantable things, and from one party or the other, the country was every where in a state of irritation and ferment; but he did think the Orange So cieties were the primary cause of the disturbance. When the privileges—nay, the rights of the Catholics, had been unjustly withheld for so many years—it was not to be wondered they should resort to almost any means to obtain them. Every Noble Lord must be perfectly convinced, that the union between the two countries would never have been carried but upon the express understanding, if not condition, that the Irish Catholics were to be put on an exact equality of terms with their Protestant brethren.— Unfortunately that understanding was not carried into effect, but obstacles were from time to time thrown in their way; and they owed a debt of gratitude to the Noble Duke for now removing those obstacles, and for gaining that great victory, not only over their opponents, but over his own mind, and over the prejudices of his former opinions —a victory which, he was sure, they would always con sider as establishing, on the part of the Noble Duke, the strongest chains to their esteem and affection. The Earl of GUILFORD took this opportunity of de claring his firm and unalterable attachment to the Consti teflon in Church and State, which had been established by solemn contract, between those who held the power of the Government and the people, and which the people felt it at once their happiness anti their duty to obey. It was astonishing to see the surprise that was manifested through out the kingdom, at the sudden bursting of the intelli gence of this measure in favour of the Catholics. The surprise was greater, as the measure seemed to originate with the men who had always hitherto declared themselves the supporters of, the Protestant interest. Those who had heard those declarations hall placed implicit reliance upon them, believing the men who uttered them to be the steady advocates of the Protestant cause. Their confi dence has produced such a degree of security in their minds, that the absence of petitions against the measure might most easily be accounted for. The secrecy which the Noble Duke had observed, had rather increased than diminished that confidence. Now such secrecy was un justifiable, if the Noble Duke had for any length of time entertained the intention of bringing forward any measure in favour of the Catholics. It was impossi ble to conceive, that an a subject of such vital import ance, he had not, either shortly after his accession to office, or at least when he made his last speech last Session upon it, some measure in his contemplation of the nature of that which he rinsv proposed to their Lordships. He did not so much complain of the change of the Noble Duke's sentiments, but of his conduct in concealing that change, when the people were relying in confidence on the opinions he had formally expressed. Nilsen 3linisters, in the pro secution of such measures, thought it their duty to pre serve such a secrecy concerning his real intentions, they must make up their minds to lose the confidence of the people, though its the opinion of some few Noble Lords, their conduct might be perfectly justifiable. In a free Government, however, they must expect to lose all the confidence of the people, and must never afterwards hope to be able to establish any link of attachment between themselves and the country over which they were ap pointed to preside. Their Lordships might recollect, that in the course of last Session, he proposed some measure with respect to securities. He was too great a novice in State Politics, to foresee that any measure like the present would be proposed. What use was it fur their Lordships to pass this Bill to protect the Constitution, if directly af terwards they were to pass another to destroy that Consti tution ? He knew it was said the Constitution was to be destroyed with securities ; but he could not reconcile the two things together. It had been said, that there was danger in the present state of things ; but he confessed he did not see it in such a form as to render the measure in contemplation necessary. He was willing to admit that the state of Ireland was bad; but that was owing to the conduct of the Catholic Association. He could not but la ment the disorder which reigned in Ireland ; but he did not believe there was any danger existing any where, but in the attempt to abrogate the fundamental laws of the realm. As to any other danger, he was convinced that a patriot King, re posing on the bosom of a loyal and faithful people, might most easily overcome it. There never was a measure which more decidedly went to abrogate the must essential parts of the Constitution. The Bill for the suppression of the Catholic Association was left unexecuted, until those dreadful and sanguinary societies, the Brunswick Clubs, — (a laugh)—had associated themselves to obtain that defence which the law did not afford them. He did not believe that these clubs had violated even the strictest letter of the law or of their allegiance. Their Lordships must recol lect that allegiance and protection were reciprocal, and he did not think it fair to direct this Act against the Pro testant Societies. He lamented that the sense of the coun try was not taken upon the question by a dissolution of Parliament ; but as that was not to be done, their Lord ships must watch over the measure. The safety of the Church was considered to be most peculiarly entrusted to their Lordships' care, and, more especially, as - the Bishops now sat in their House. However that might be, the quel ltion was now put on an entirely new ground, and the Con stitution was to be subverted by those Who had futulerly . . upheld it. It was possible that the representatives of the people might have changed their opinions. Some of those representativ!s had been returned to their pre sent seats almi , st on conditions of opposing the Ca tholic Cl rims, vet they pretended to retain their seats though they hail charigial their opinions. —( Hear, hear, hear.) Sortie had tinderg,ine a sudden change within the last month. Were the people to be condemned to a per petuity of evil on account of the change thus wonderfully operated on the minds of some of their representatives? He maintained that the circumstances under which the measure was now brought forward, stamped it with the character of one of power, and not of justice. He would not trouble them any longer. He should only say, that the great question was, whether excuses of this sort were to be admitted into the two Houses of Parliament to vio late the specific rights of the great majority of the people? If this question was decided in the affirmative, he did hope, at least, that the old bell of St. Paul's should be re-cast, and, as its sounds are supposed at certain periods to reach the ears even of the centinel who treads the ramparts of Windsor Castle, he trusted, before that event took place, that it would be allowed to ring the funeral knell of the British and Irish Protestant Church, and the rights and liberties of the people.—(Hear, and a laugh.) The Bill was read a second time, and their Lordships then adjourned at a few minutes after Nine o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(LAST NIGHT.) On the motion of Mr. HERRIES, a new Writ was or dered to be made out for the Bor.y.lgh of Aldeburgh, Suf. folk, in the room of Wyndham Lewis, Esq. who had ac epted the Chiltern Hundreds. Mr. Hall, from the office of the Chief Secretary of Ire land, brought up acaounts relative to the Butter Trade of Ireland. A person from the Secretary to the Chancellor's office brought up certain returns relative to Bankruptcies. Colonel SIBTHORPE presented a petition from Lin coln, against certain clauses of the Witham Navigation Bill. Mr. FERGUSON presented a petition from Dundee, praying for leave to bring in a Bill to light that town with gas. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL presented a petition from the Benchers of Lincoln's-Inn for leave to compound for the Poor's Rate by paying a yearly sum. Col. LYGON presented a petition from the county and city of Worcester against the Roman Catholics, it was signed by 5,722 persons, and he trusted that the house would take it into their consideration. We understood the Hon. Member to say that his opinions respecting the impo licy of further concession were unchanged, but that he de clined to state the grounds upon which he formed those opinions, until the question of emancipation was brought fairly before the House. On the question that the petition be printed, Mr. G. RO BINSON begged to address a few words to the House. He had the honour of representing a great number of the per sons who had signed that petition, and he was sorry to differ in opinion with them. They were respectable, as he had the honour of a personal acquaintance with many of them, and their petition was certainly entitled to every attention. He had, however, most deliberately con sidered the question, and had arrived at the conviction that concessions may now be granted to the Catholics without the dangers which were feared, and he could not therefore agree with the prayer of that petition. . Had the petitioners only prayed the House to protect the Protestant Church and Constitution be should have joined with them. Colonel DAVIS said his Hon. Friend, in presenting this petition, assured the House that it was signed by many Magistrates, and most respectable individuals, and con tained the sense of the county. Now, with the greatest respect for his Hon. Friend, he must say that was not the case.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was concocted at a meeting, called to establish a Brunswick Club.—(l.lear.)—lt was not signed by many Magistrates, neither did it speak the sense of the county ; the principal person in the business was no doubt a respectable man, but he (Col. Davis) never be fore this transaction ever heard his name ; he was a native of Ireland, living in a hired house, and did not possess a single acre of land in the county.—(Hear, hear.) — The petition, thus originated, was then handed round the county, and every citizen and labourer invited to sign it He could assure the House if a public meeting was called to get up a petition against the Catholics, the attempt would utterly fail. Colonel LYGON presented a petition from Bewdley against the Catholic Claims. Mr. WM. PEEL moved that an humble address he presented to his Majesty, praying that he would order to be laid before the House, returns of the number of persons charged with criminal offences in Eng land and Wales during the last seven years, describing the number each year; and the number of those acquitted, and of those executed. A petition was presented from a place in the county of Staffor,l, against any further concession to the Catholics. Mr. H. PARNELL presented a petition from a parish in the Queen's County, i❑ favour of Emancipation. General KING presented a petition against further con cession to the Catholics, from some place, the name of which we could not catch. Admiral SOT HERON presented twelve petitions from places i❑ the county of Somerset, against any further concessions to the Catholics. Colonel PEEL presented a petition, most numerously signed, from the city of Norwich, against any further con cessiot:s to the Catholics ; he could assure the Iluuse that the petitions were most respetable, and worthy of conside tion. Mr. LEYCESTER said, that he was at a loss to know what claim the petition just presented had to the distinc tion of a preliminary notification. If the petitioners had stated any thing of importance or of interest in their peti tion, it might be a reason why this distinction should be bestowed upon it. If they had proposed any well digested plan instead of the measure proposed by his Majesty's Go vernment, it might then be entitled to the significant notice given to it by the Hon. Member ; but it appeared that this petition contained no such suggestion, but was drawn up in the ordinary tone and language of desperate delusion. These petitioners now attempted to oppose the opinions of the Right Honourable Gentleman, whom they formerly swore by, for no other reason than that he had the manliness to avow his conscientious convic tion, and fearlessly to discharge his duty. They sought to pull down one Duke, and to set up another—(hear, and a laugh)—because he had resolved upon extend ing to Ireland the best and most munificent boon that could be granted her. Of that measure of concession re commended in the Speech from the Throne, he would say that it was founded in justice, in policy, and in humanity ; it was calculated to promote the strength and stability of the empire, to relieve Ireland from the wretchedness and misery which hitherto prevailed in it; and to augment the glory and lustre of the present reign. That reign has been most auspicious and prosperous; its morning had been ushered in with the achievement of great victories over the greatest foe this country ever had ; and its evening was now brightened with the milder glory of a victory over an inter nal enemy—the demon of religious discorel—(Hear, hear. ) The Noble Duke at the head of the Administration, and the Right Hon. Secretary of State tor the Flume Department, whose patriotic avowal of their opinion, and their de termination to execute it, merited the gratitude of the country—these distinguished persons were now visited with censure by those who formerly acted with them, because they preferred to walk in their own light, rather than in the darkness of those who now condemned them. To those eminent persons he would say— " Macte nova virtute." Let them proceed straight-forward to the completion of the good work in which they had embarked. They would not, he was satisfied, be diverted from it by any suggestion about non sensical intimidation, which did not exist, and to which, if it did exist, they would not attend. With respect to the question of securities, if, as his Majesty's Ministers were now con vinced, there was no danger, what was the use of proposing any restrictions, the greatest security this country and the Protestant establishment could have, would be in granting to our Roman Catholic brethren their just rights.— (Hear.) —When the measure was brought forward he should give it his hearty support. Mr. H. GURNEY made several observations, but in so law a tone of voice, that we could with difficulty catch anything he said. We understood him, however, to con tend that this country was so essentially, and so enthusi astically Protestant, that no danger could be apprehended from the admission of a few Catholics to either House of Parliament. Lord TULLAMORE said that the Right Hon. Secre taiy had received the first burst of the new light in the month of July, and he stated that his final conversion took place in August. He had given communications to them, and said that he had no further information ; and it would be inconvenient to answer any further questions ; but his Majesty's Ministers would find that it would be much easier to answer in that way than to stioe the indignant voice of the Protestants of Ireland. He contended that the present was not the time to grant any concessions to the Catholics of Ireland, in the present alarming state of that country. He regret ted the loss of the Right Honourable Secretary, who had so long defended the Protestant rights, but he would do him the justice to say that he believed he bad adopted the late change from a conscientious conviction of its necessity. Wben, LIVIYOTTI the Right lion. Gvuticraa4 way received by acclamation and admiration,' as the champion of the Protestant i n te rusts, in the course of his late excursion to seve ral of the principal towns of England, no one could have supposed that he was then framing a Bill for the admission of the Catholics to the Constitution. In the letter of the Duke of Wellington to the Catholic Archbishop, twenty days be titre the meeting- of Parliament, he recommended " that the question should be buried in oblivion, and that the intermediate time should be devoted to the considering of the settlement of it." It was manifest, that at the time of writing this letter, there was no intention of proposing the measure on the part of Government.—( Hear, hear.) He thought that these circumstances sustained him in the charge of delusion which had been practised on this question. He disclaimed anything that might be per sonally disrespectful to the Right Honourable Gentleman. There was only one other topic to which he wished to advert,—that of the removal of the late Lord Lieu tenant of Ireland. That Noble Marquis (Anglesea) "had won golden opinions from all sorts of men" in that country; and when Government had resolved upon proposing this me•tsure, he was at a loss to account for the withdrawal of the Noble Lord from Ire land. He trusted, however, in justice to that Noble Per son, that full and satisfactory infartnation would be given to the House, explanatory of the circumstances connected with his recall. The Noble Lord concluded by repeating his opposition to the measure of intended concession ; and said, that if it should pass into a law, he was sure that the Pro testants, however they might oppose it in its progress, would manifest their obedience to the laws, as they invari ably had done ; and he would do what lay in his power to inculcate due submission to the authority of the Legisla ture, which he was sure they would readily pay.—(Loud cries of hear, hear,—in which Mr. Secretary Peel joined.) Air. W. SAIITH said that he would inform the House why a counter-petition was not presented. A large meet ing of the friends of civil and religious liberty had informed him that they would have presented a petition if they thought it necessary, but they saw that it was taken up by his Majesty's Government, and they still would if necessary, petition for the protection of the Protestant Constitution. lie would maintain it himself as long as it maintained itself by doing what was just. Mr. STURGES BOURNE regretted that none of the petitions which had been presented' stated that they knew the situation of Ireland. At present it might be presumed that they knew it better than the Ministers. (Hear, hear, and a laugh. ) _ Colonel PEEL then presented two other petitions from places in the county of Norfolk, against the Catholics. i\Ir.BYNG presented a petition itt favour of the Catholics. Lord EI3RINGTON, in rising to present a petition in favour of Emancipation, said the Right Hon. Secretary of State had done himself the highest honour in preparing a measure which would the effect of bringing peace to Ire land. He (Lord E.) had voted for the suppression of the Association, although he was a member of that Association. He did not do so because he thought it a dangerous body. Although some strong expressions might have been made, yet they were not so violent as those which fell from the lips of the loyal Brunswiekers. (Hear, hear.) Their object was to obtain legitimate relief, and the great body of them were actuated solely from a love of their country. It was the efforts of the Catholic Association that had mainly contributed to the tranquillity of Ireland. Admiral EVANS said the House had just heard from the Hon, Member on the other side, that Brunswick Clubs were worse than the Catholic Association. This he totally denied. The Brunswickers were satisfied with their King, and their constitutional laws, and he thought it was only on very few occasions that they were betrayed into intemperate language. He was sur prised how the Noble Lord could laud the Catholic Asso ciation, and yet vote for its suppression. Ile must think it very inconsistent. He (Admiral Evans) was a Protestant ; he conscientiously believed the oath be had taken, that the Roman Catholic religion was im pious and idolatrous, and he should do all he could to keep it out of that House. The petition was then brought up and read : it was from Buekfastleigh, Devon ; another petition was also presented from Crediton, in the same county. Mr. Secretary PEEL moved that an humble address be presented to his Majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to order to be laid before the House a Report from the Commissioners appointed by Parlia ment to inquire into the practice of the Courts of Law in this country. Mr. BROUGHAM made a few observations across the table, but in a tone of voice scarcely audible in the gallery. We understood the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to ex press his satisfaction at the presentation of the Report; and to state that he thought that a measure 71pplicab4e to it might be introduced in a separate form. Adverting to the recent conversation in the House on the fixing of Easter Term, he observed, that he was not aware, until after that conversation, of the dispute that existed on the subject. All, he wished for was, that the Term should be fixed ; and he thought a short Bill might be advantageously introduced on the subject. 11r. Secretary PEEL had referred the subject to the Law Officers of the Crown, for the purpose of pi eparing such a Bill as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ad verted to. The motion for the Address tvas then agreed to. CATHOLICS. Mr. BROUGHAM presented a petition, numerously , signed by the inhabitants of Bristol, in favour of conces sion to his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects. He under stood, however, that there was a petition from Bristol of an opposite character, more numerously signed. He was told, indeed, that the signatures of the opposite petition were four or five times as numerous as those of the peti tion which he had the honour to present; and yet the number of signatures to his petition was seventeen hun dred. Among these were the names of many individuals of the highest respectability; with the greater part of whom he was acquainted. He understood that one of the rea sons why the petition was not more numerously signed, was the shortness of time allowed for that purpose. If it had been permitted to remain two days longer, it would, be was told, have been signed by three or four times the number. Mr. BRIGHT was confident, and he felt it his duty to state the fact, that the great majority of the inhabitants of the city of Bristol were decidedly hostile to any further concessions to the Roman Catholics. For himself, he had always opposed their claims ; and not feeling that any circumstances had occurred to change the state of the question, he should not alter his conduct respecting it. Mr. HART DAVIS concurred with his Hon. Col league, that the great majority of the inhabitants of Bristol were decidedly adverse to the Catholic Claims. The peti tion embodying those sentiments had no fewer than five and twenty thousand signatures. The petition was then brought up, read, and ordered to be printed. Mr. BROUGHAM presented similar petitions from the Protestant Dissenters of Kirby-Kendal; from the Pro testant Dissenters of South Shields ; and from the Roman Catholic Inhabitants of a parish in the King's County, Ireland. Mr. BROUGHAM presented a petition from John Joseph Stockdale, of the Colonnade, stating that he and his father had for the last half century been engaged in publishing and circulating works, the tendency of which was to show the obnoxious character of the Roman Ca tholic religion, and the danger of making any further con cession to its professors. The petitioner proceeded to state his conviction that there was a conspiracy within the Cabinet and without, in order to introduce Popery and misrule in this country; and the consequences would be fatal, if the advice which the petitioner tendered to the House, of dismissing all traitors from his Majesty's Coun cils, should not be adopted. The intended measure of Ca tholic Emancipation would cancel all his Majesty's sub jects' sworn allegiance, and justly deprive the House of Ha nover of its right to the Throne. The Hon. Member said that the petitioner did not proceed to state that the measure of Emancipation would confer the Crown on the House of Savoy, which he believed was next in succession on the failure of that of Hanover. The petitioner's opi nion, however, corresponded with what he (Mr. B.) had heard uttered in that House. The petition was disre spectful to other persons, but to nobody in the Commons ; and therefore he conceived that the House had no option but that of adopting it. The petition was then ordered to lie on the table. Mr. BROUGHAM then presented another petition from the same individual, complaining of the Courts of Law, and particularly of the Lord Chief Justice of the Court of Common Pleas, relative to his Lordship's con duct towards the petitioner when he was indicted for a libel.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. BROUGHAM presented a petition from the Rec tor, Churchwardens, and Inhabitants of Withington, Salop, praying for the abolitioa of Negro Slavery.—A similar petition from a parish in the County of Tyrone. Lord BECTIVE presented a petition from a parish in the County of Meath against the Vestry Act ; and a simi lar petition from Kilbcrew, in the same county; likewise a petition from the same place against the Sub-letting Act.— The petitions were respectively ordered to - lie on the table. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER presented a petition from the Bishops and Clergy of Dromore, pray ing that no further concessions might be granted to the Roman Catholics. ARREST ON AIESNE PROCESS. Mr, HUMS rose and said, that be had entertained a hope that ere this his Majesty's Government would have seen the propriety of something being done to put a stop to what appeared to him, and he believed to a very large por tion of the public, to be a grievance of a very serious na ture. The evil was very extensively felt, both immediately and in its collateral and distant effects. Whilst this coun try boasted superior advantages to all others—whilst it specially boasted the superior protection afforded to the per sonal liberty of the subject—the fact was, that with re spect to debt, there was no country in which personal li berty could be so easily destroyed, and on such trifling grounds, as in England. Whether it was strictly by 1 ne m. not, it was undoubtedly the fact, that a practice had grown up by which an individual on the plea of debt could confine another, whether that debt might prove, on inves tigation, to be correct or nut. By the present practice any individual was allowed, on oath, to charge another with debt, and to arrest him, upon an affidavit which could not be taken or admitted in a Court of Justice, for in such a Court the plaintiff would not be allowed to make affidavit in his own cause, or to give oath whe ther the debt was due or not. He did not intend to state all the extreme hardships growing out of such a practice, nor the great injustice arising from the subject ; but he must say that it had been his expectation, and he believed the expectation of the public, that the Commission of Law Inquiry would have taken the whole matter under its con sideration. At least, he felt convinced, that it was quite . impossible that the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Secretary of State) could be adequately aware of the great extent and serious nature of the evils under the existing system, and not feel desirous of putting an end to them. There were now lying on the table of the House Returns on the subject for four successive years. The object of the Motion be was about to submit to the House was, to bring upon the table a continuation of those Returns in the same form as those of which the House was already in possession. When the whole of the papers were on the table, they would establish whether there had been an increase or a de crease of the evil, and would justify further measures in re lation to the subject. A strange notion has unaccountably crept into this country, that to imprison the person was the best mode of obtaining- a payment of a debt, and in every respect better than having recourse to the effects and property of the individual. But the chief evil of the practice existing in England was, that the families of debtors were destroyed. Persons who were not criuri nale, but only unfortunate, were subject to arrest, and were exposed to the contamination and degradation which, it was allowed on all hands, were the necessary copse quenees of a confinement in the gaols of this country. In many respects it was shameful to the country to allow the gaols to continue in their present state. He had not pressed upon the House any arrangement for the abolition of arrest for debt upon judgment, or after due inquiry by Courts of Law ; but he had pressed on the House, and he did expect that the Right llon. Secretary would have also pressed upon it, the rational and fair proposition of abolish ing the power of arrest under mesne process. In mesne process the allegation might be from spite, and under a consciousness that the imputed debtor did not, honestly, owe a single shilling. The result of the Returns on the Table was a conviction that the present state of things could not continue long. In the five prisons of the metropolis—the King's Bench, the Fleet, Whitecross-street, the Marshal sea, and the priion in Horsemonger-lane—there were com mitted, in 1827, not less than 5,d59 prisoners for debt ; and on the Ist of January, 1828, there were 1,515 per sons within the walls of these prisons. Those who knew the want of accommodation in the prisons might judge of this fertile source of demoraliz rtion. Fur thousand one hundreri and seventy-two persons were in confinement upon mesne process. Seventeen hundred and ninety-nine per sons were committed upon judgments. In Scotland, Hol land, France, in Canada and tire English Colonies, arrest upon mesne process was not permitted. It was singular, that even in the British Colonies the liberties of the subject were better protected than at home. The effect of the law in these places afforded the Government sufficient ex perience how safely they might proceed upon the subject in England. Government ought to extend the principles on which they had acted last year, when they had limited ar rest to a higher amount of debt. This would greatly de crease the evil. The following was a correct statement of arrests for debt : * .--3 ?. , .. ..,; z '1: , C` r''' < 7%,.• x . ' '0 .... ..i fl' s• r . j, .. E 1: -. ; 'j . 4 1 q '.i r, (I '. : ...' %(1 I Cld ••••• H ' 7..," z., —"' r , c. • :!_, .7. 0 .; , ' 2- .0 c. 5 ... 6" :4 .., ~., : : 0 z.... ...... ... WY' ---; .- = co co 0 , --- D., .., , r.-... - - ?- ..c -. ...-'-' :1 7, -it' 1,15 . : 5 . .., ~..., z '. ~- g i r; ,•,' - g . c.,. ,t . 7 :'-'," a, PE 5 .. ,•,. _, tz .—. r. 4 I 1 t .-.., ....4 Sy , ! . .1 cc m H .. 0 .3 - CO. ~., 0 '-.... t r l 7 cc w 5 c , ._, ~, I I , d g z ,c,. --. •2, WI -,,,—:.•::,,,..., = • • , E. g;'., ' ' x •,•! c- 0 0-, o ~... K. l . =-• ;.---• .- -; 7, •40':"... 1.. . ..., •:". F . ; i t — , 4- m c s, .....-- , ....4..- :... ..... I, 1 4 t-' Wl,uu- h 0 .t - c F. - a .0 S ..., .~ z . < 2 2 Mt, .--, L . :‹ ..,;' Z M 57, I ..., M s i : 1 1 : ::: . - 1: ::: - ----. _:::. :1 76: : :: : -1: : c f _ r 5-- 7 = ::: 2 4 . ~.. , ',-. 5 -, ._, :5 1 " '---' l • :1 -- ~..,, . ~ ~ .., c .=.:...,c,,- r , z, g m - , , , C 7 1 :t. .. , .1 :' oi . (i. ',- . ' . . . r . . 9 I (1 , .. V2 V i Cr ' ' C' GC V 5 - .. CD ~ , ~.,, s 3 ''' ' '''' n . B m ,; , 0 cp C.A.0,...7.4.. 'CP ~- CD Cr ... 7 . C. , •-... ... • If arrests Nye' 'United to 501. much of this evil would be removed. He was convinced that every respectable attorney would state at the bar of that House, that the abolition of arrest on mesne process ought to be abolished. He was now inclined to notice the extent of imprisonments by sentences of Courts of Requests. From the papers on the table, the numbers were not so large as he had an ticipated, but they were very respectable. The average of these imprisonments were for debts between sixteen and seventeen shillings. The general rule was to imprison the person one (lay for every shilling he owed, and the ex pence of supporting the debtors in gaol fell upon the counties, and was of a great amount. It appeared also by Returns on the Table, that there were not less than 161. persons who had the power of committing to gaol upon allegations of debt. In Ireland the evil, if any thing, was more severely felt. The Returns from Ireland were not very accurate, bat it appeared that of 660 individuals, 350 were confined for debts under 201. ; 129 under 501. ; and the remainder for debts above 50/. Limiting the arrests to 50/. would diminish the numbers confined in gaols, and would relieve the country of great and unne cessary expellees. In Ireland the expenses of the gaols were very considerable, and the five prisons of Dublin were a serious charge to the Government. Ile believed that three out of every four arrests proceeded more out of spite or revenge than from any hope of payment of the debt. The following statement would further illustrate the evils of which he complained : WARRANTS for ARRESTS for DEBT in the year 1827, No. 149 of Parliamentary Return of 1623. Secondaries' Office, London Sheriff of Middlesex Ditto of Surrey • Total Exclusive of Writs issued in the same year: Vide No. 117 01 1828. No. By Lord Mayor's Court • 854 By Sheriffs' Tellers 635— No. of Writs Number issued. executed. 9,979 16,258 3,278 Total 23,515 • 1,459 2,362 7,'261 :1,691 1 11,317 executed in one year. ^125,004 in one year in Lon don and Middlesex. Exclusive of all the Cotirts of Requests. The expences of these arrests, including the Attorney, the Sheriff's Officers, the Lock-up House, and incidents, could not be estimated under 59,0001. Much of this fell on the poorest class of people. When a person was driven to the Insolvent Act to get clear of such debts, the expense was about 151., with the loss of time, of cha racter, and the ruin of the family of the debtor, without any benefit to the parties having the power of putting the writs in execution. There were not less than 25,000 writs in London alone against debtors, and of these 1489 were writs of the Sheriff's Courts. The Society for the Relief of Persons imprisoned for Small Debts had, in the last year, discharged 43,399 debtors, involving the actual comforts and welfare of 147,600 persons in their fami lies. The average of these debts has been 21. 14s. Wol. each, including the expences of the Society's establishment. Many Societies in London had come to the resolution of not arresting for debts, the expences being so great. This was a sad state of the law, and lie trusted that the Right Hon. Gentleman would permit a Bill to be brought in to remedy the evil. In the mean time he would move for a " Return of Persons confined for Debt in the five Gaols of the Metropolis in 1828, distinguishing those on Mesue Process from those on Judgments entered up, and for Costs of Suits, and Sums awarded, being a continuation of the Returns of the former years." Mr. PEEL hal not the slightest objection to the pro duction of the Returns. He acknowledged the subject to be important, and deserving of serious consideration : but he could not admit that there Was any ground of reflection on the Government. It was often very difficult to foresee all the consequences of a wide and extensive alteration of a law. The rilht of arrest for debt had been changed from 101. to 201., and it would be but proper to watch the effect if this alteration before any other was proposed. If it were found in practice that no great inconvenience had arisen from the alteration of the law, this would be a much better ground of future proceedings than any theories or interference a priori. lie was inclined to think it would be preferable to refer the subject to a Commission, than to bring in a Bill at once. The consequences pre dicted from legislation on these subjects were not always found accordant with prophecies. Nothing could appear more equitable than the principle of the Insolvent Debtors' Act, as the debtor not only gave up all his property, but even his future gains, until he liquidated the debt from which he claimed his personal release. The Hon. Member, how ever, must be aware, that even in the working of the In solvent Debtors' Act, great frauds were committed, and the sums actually recovered hardly, on an average, ex ceeded a farthing in the po;lnd. This operated to the great destruction of that fair confidence and credit between man and man, which ought to exist in the transactions of life. The Legislature ought to be cautious in interfering in such subjects. In saying this, he was n o t g i v i ng any opposition whatever to the motion ; and he would further say, • that if no inconvenience had resulted from the r ece nt alteration of the Law of Arrest, the principle might be further.extended The motion was then put and carried. INSOLVENT ACT. Mr. lIUME, in rising to move, according to his ❑otice, o!,scrved, that the present Insolvent Act was altogether opposed to the liberty of the subject and the general interests of society. He thought it would be quite sufficient if the Cessio Bonortun were acted upon. It surely would be enough if a debtor was permitted to give up at once all he passessed, without being compelled to pa , s his days in a prison. He therefore moved, " That an humble Addret , s he presented to his Majesty, praying that he would be gra ciously pleased to lay before the House an account of the number of Warrants of Arrest for Debt, whether upon mesne process or in execution, in the counties of Surrey and Middlesex, in 1828." The Hon. Member also moved "for an Aceount of the Money which had been under the management of the Insolvent Debtors' Court since its esta blishment, and of the Expences incurred by the said Court." —Ordered. Upon the motion of the Hon. Algmara, several Returns were ordered for Ireland ; also, a Return of the Number of Persons confined for Debt in England and Ireland. Mr. ROBERT GRANT Raid that the whole subject o arrest and imprisonment for debt required revision, but that, when such strong statements were made as to the total inefßciency of the Insolvent Court, he felt it but fair to remind gentlemen that, in a treatise on that Court, pub lished by a Barrister who was well acquainted with the subject, those charges were as strongly denied, and the denial was supported by facts. Mr. LOFT said a few words, which were mainly in support of the motion of the lion. Member for Aberdeen. CLERK OF THE PLEAS (IRELAND). Upon the Motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER, the House resolved itself into a Committee upon the Appropriation of the Fees arising from the office of Clerk of the Pleas in Ireland. He would shortly state to the House the nature of his motion. In 1816 the Earl of Buckinghamshire, who held the office of Clerk of the Pleas in Ireland, died, and it was resolved to do away with the office, at least with the sinecure part of it, but the Chief Baron of Ireland had thought that the appointmert to the office was vested in him, and he filled it up. Reference was, however, had to the Courts of Law ; and it was, upon inquiry, fonnd that the Chief Baron had not vested in him the power of the appointment. The object of the present Bill was to add to the Consolidated Fund the money accumulated from the fees of this office. Upon this ground it was that he moved for leave to bring in a Bill upon the subject. Mr. HUME wished to know the amount of money so accumulated ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it was upwards of 79,0001. in the three and a half per cents. The House having resumed, the Report was brought up and agreed to, and leave given to bring in the Bill. Lord LOWTHER gave notice of a motion to consoli date certain Acts relating to the Woods and Forests. Sir GEORGE MURRAY gave notice (fer Thursday next) of a motion to consolidate certai❑ Acts relating - to the Fisheries of Canada.—Adjourned at Eight o'clock. The East India Co►npany's ship Castle Iluntly arrived at Penang on the 23d July, and was ex pected to sail for China on the 9th Augcst last. The terrifying reports of pitch-plastering fooleries, have prevented thousands of persons from stirring out at night. They would be an excellent application to the mouths of scolding wives, or grumbling old women. OLD COBBEIT.—No POPERY AND THE CURRENCY.-This amusing old gentleman informs the public in his " Register " of last Saturday, that the real cause fur the settlement of the Citholic Question is to be Emma in the demand for Gold—and that the man who doubts it is a stupid beast. This propensity of Mr. Cobbett's to trace effects to one cause is very appo. sitely alluded to in a recent pamphlet on the Currency, where the author, in allusion to the various opinions as to the cause of our embarrassments, observes, " a popular writer, taking another view, lays all our troubles at the door of the Currency ; whether his children sicken, whe ther he loses his crop of kidney beaus, the violets in his garden wither, if his cows fall short of their accustomed supply of milk, let even his dogs get the distemper--it is the Curreney,:it is a distempered circulation, and nothing else, which produces all this animal and vegetable strife." It is singular how very zealous the fur sex seem to have been when the new Liturgy was attempted to be introduced into Scotland. " The most outrageous were observed to be women, and those chiefly serving maids, who were then in the custom of bringing moveable seats, and keeping them for their masters and mistresses. Some cried, ' Wo, wo ! for this dolefu' day that they arc bringing in Popery among us!' Others, less delicate, called out to the Dean, in allusion to some unrecorded cir cumstance of his life—' 111-hanged thief ! gif at that time when thou wentest to court, thou hadst been weill hanged as thou vast ill- hanged, thou hadst not been here, to be a pest to God's church this day !' And he was also saluted with the title of ' a devil's gett (child) and one of a witch's breeding.' After a great deal of abusive language had been expended, an old woman, Janet Geddes by name, hearing the Bishop call upon the Dean to proceed with the collect of the day, exclaimed, in a voice loud enough to be heard above the hubbub—' Deil colic the wame o' ye ! and aimed at the head of the Dean the small moveable stool on which she sat. A shower of clasp Bibles fol lowed, to the amount, says one chronicler, of ' whole pock fulls.' Providentially, Mrs. Geddes's ticket of remem brance,' as a merry annalist of the period terms it, did not take effect, the Dean having the wisdom to jouk,' that is, to crouch, before it reached him, so that it passed over his head."— Constable's Miscellany. oiluNr iAs tale, town, DUEL PREVENTED BETWEEN A TAILOR t e Et company in RAr R. - w o i th others, Tuesday a l t a a st, re t s h p e ec i t te ab ro le es io o n f when, an argument arising, each disputant took an active part in the debate. They parted at a late hour, in deadly feud, and met again the next morning at another auberge (the sign of which is emblematic of peace), to settle the preliminaries of their bloody combat. Mot Laving their cases of duelling pistols at hand, they Were obliged to descend to the extreme vulgarity of fightinf, with two immense horse pistols, obtained from the shop of a neighbouring gun-smith ; and waited full 141 f an how while the said gun-smith. cast " the friendly balls to lay them 10w.".---This . interval afforded the ci-devant linen draper of Stroud, an oppOrtunity of writing a valedic tory and testamentary letter to his wife, while his antago nist was breathing revenge, and thirsting for his blood. All being prepared, and a mutual friend having written an agreement signed by each party, the belligerents sallied accompanied by their seconds, to the field of mar glory, near the Pump Room at Pittville. On ar i at the fatal spot, the ground was duly measured, the pistols loaded with ball, and the by-standers were in a state of breathless expectation,—when, just at this awful crisis, a constable, whom some one had very. thoughtfully apprised of the circumstarc took one of the combatants into custody, giving his enemy also into charge, and they were all taken to the Public-office, with their pistols, gun powder, ball, and the whole materiel of tsar, to he dealt with as the law directs. The decision of the 111agistrates shall be duly reported in our next, with the fall account of a duel which i 3 expected to take place to morrow morning on the same spot, between two chimney sweepers, who unfortunately happened to quarrel atim m t the 5‘:1111.1 time.— Cheltenham Chronicle,