The Sun. — London, England, 1858-02-12 00:00:00

detail, and do not require an entire alteration in the system. Now, my lords, we have not been told what re the grounds which have induced the Government to : ems to the conclusion that an alteration should be made iu the constitution of the Indian Government ; but - 4 . 7 1,„ we remember that the subject was carefully con - sldereci so lately as the year 1353 by a cabinet contain ing many members of the present ministry, and that that cabinet renewed the charter of the East India Company, we must assume that it is something which has occurred since then which has led to the conclusion that the existing mode of government ought no longer to continue. Those new circumstances can only be the mutinies which have occurred in India. I must say, my lords, that I am at a loss to understand in what manner the mutinies can have rendered it expedient to adopt the course which it is understood is contemplated by the Government. I think that the argument of the etitieners is unanswerable, that if those mutinies are to he laid at the door of the Governmen t of Yndia it is at the door of that portion of it which has had supreme control that it should be laid , and not at th d e vi doo r o bod y, f d the petitioners', who have been m ere l y red whose advice , has not unfrequentlyanbeaendisre*gardey, disregarded. The branch of the administration in which the affairs of India have been best manage d is that portion with which the ex - oyrn, and the officers of the crown, have the least concern. On the other hand, the management of the army has been more directly under the control of the ministers of the crown. The ministry has appointed the Corn. tiler-in-Chief, it has virtually appointed the Gover nor-General, and, in fact, the general control of the army has been more with the ministry than with the Board of Directors. Bearing these things in mind, it appears that we are to come to this extraordinary conclusion, that whereas one administration has been good and another evil, we are to take away the authority of that which has discharged its trust efficiently, and commit it to those who, it appears by the result, hate mismanaged the duties confided to them. What may be the paramount causes of the mutiny I cannot pretend to say '; but no man can doubt that it sprang immediately from two causes ; first, that the demands upon the service of the :British troops have been of late years very largely in creased ; and, secondly, that the native army has been 'kept up to a scale dangerously large when compared with that of the European troops. (Hear.) Why is it that the duties of British troops have been of late years so largely Increased i My lords, lam bound to say that the cause of it has been the restless and aggressive policy which has been pursued with regard to the powers with whom the Indian Government has been brought into contact. in these wars millions and millions have been expended, which might have been far more wisely employed in the internal improvements of Hindustan, thereby adding to :the resources and power of the state. This aggressive policy has been the true source of our difficulties, and let me add, that with this policy the government has bad nothing to do. The constitution of the Secret Committee enables the government of the day to give what orders they please relating to war and diplomacy without the :knowledge of the Court of Directors. It is notorious that the directors have always opposed the policy of agoression, and it is no less notorious that most of the recant wars have been commenced without their know ledge, and continued without their approval. We know they disapproved of the war in Affghanistan, that they disapproved of the Burmese war, and that they were not consulted in the war with Persia. And because these proceedings have ended in the calamities of the last 12 menthe, we are now to be asked to hand over the govern ment from those who disapproved of those proceedings and hand it to those through whose instrumentality they were set on foot. I cannot see—l think your lordships will have a difficulty in seeing—the policy or the justice of such a step, and I therefore concur with the petitioners in thinking that the principle of the present system of government ought to be maintained. And, ray lords, if you retain the principle, I concur with the petitioners in thinking that it would net be well to constitute some fresh consultative board to advise the government. The petitioners say, and with justice, that a newly created board would want that moral influence which an esta blished body, like the Court of Directors, now possess. And I also concur with the petitioners in thinking that even supposing it desirable that some alteration should be made in the existing state of things, the present is not 'the time for making it. I own that this seems so just and plain a proposition that I am at a loss to see how it can be met. It seems to me most extraordinary that we should be called upon to attempt to alter the system of government of an empire, while the whole of that empire is torn by an internal conflict. I have now, my lords, tated in what I concur with the petitioners, but before I conclude it is necessary that I should say a few words won a point with regard to which I am bound to say that I cannot agree with them. The petitioners pray your lordships not to pass the proposed bill during the continuance of the present disturbances, or, at all events, not without further inquiry. They urge that before such a step is taken, there should be a full and complete inquiry into the subject by your lordships' house. From this I must say I entirely dissent. If Parliament should be of opinion that the present system should endure no longer, and that the East India Company should be abo lished, I think that that opinion should be put into practice with the least possible delay. I see no occasion for inquiry ; because, though it might be incomplete an other respects, the inquiry made in the year 1853 as to the mode of conducting the government of India Lae afforded us all the information which we can require -with reference to the home government. Besides, I think that an inquiry of this kind would have a very bad effect. The inquiry would necessarily be directed against the company by the government, and yet during the time that it was going on the company would have to act -with government in the administration of the affairs of India. If we are to have a change, let it be made as speedily as possible, and let the statute which enacts it cams into force with as little delay as the subject would allow. Before I sit do n, let me remark that I was wrong in saying that the East India Company have not been consulted by the government in reference to this bill about to be proposed. I ought to have said that they have at last been consulted. About Mn hour before I came down to this house I received information to the effect that this morning the Prime Minister had an inter view with the Chairman of the Court of Directors, and communicated to him the heads of the bill. As, how ever, the bill is to come before the House of Commons to-morrow, I presume that no very essential mcdifica- Cons can take place in the interval ; and I own I do not see what an vantage can arise from the communica tion which has just been made. If anything, I think this makes rather more marked than it was before the insulting want of courtesy shown towards the Cuurt of Directors. The Duke of ARGYLL said he was sure their lordships would all admit that in following the noble earl he was placed at considerable disadvantage, and that his position might have been far better had he risen after the head of the government had introduced the bill in another place. Be would appeal to the candour of the noble earl himself 'whether it were not possible that many of the objeotions he had urged to this proposed change might have been re moved by an examination of the measure about to bo sub emitted to parliament. He could not anticipate the contents of that bill, and his observations would therefore take the form rather of a statement, than of a reply to the speech of his noble friend. He must, however, first refer for a moment to his noble friend's enlogium on the petition of the East India Company. He need hardly say that in the whole of that eulogium it was impossible for the government to concur. They thought that some of the arguments in the petition were purely traditional, and were inapplicable under existing circumstances; that some parts of it contradicted each other ; and that some of the statements, though true in themselves, did not warrant the conclusions in support of which they were made. On one point there could be but one opinion in that house; they must all feel that the tone and temper of this docu ment were worthy of the great historical body from which it emanated, and worthy of the subject treated ; and he earnestly hoped that in th e d e b ates which would take p lace in parliament, ther e wou ld b e an a b stinence from every thing of a recriminative charact er , an d th at they would all give credit to each other for a desire to secure th 3 best pos sible government for India. H e mus t a l so express best hope that the two able and distinguished men who were understood to have been mainly instrumental in the drawing up of that petition might continue to give to any future government that might be provided for India that üble assistance which they had for so many years given to the government of the East India Company. Now, hav ing thus referred to the petition, he entreated their lords whips to consider in what position the government would have been placed if they had not proposed a change of sys tem. The act of 1853 made changes of very considerable Liao:titled° in the government of India, and all these t h a a s nges were in the di rec ti on o f th a t co ns umm a tion which now proposed. The house would recollect the circum stances under which the measure of 1853 was brought for and by Lord Aberdeen. The transfer of the powers of ; g )yernment from the East India Company to the Crown was urged upon thaegovernment from different quarters, inclading if n o t r trty in parliament large at all events a very influential L ag „, i n Lord Ai)4a anel , he might appeal to all his col their impression at th e ti me whether it was not 'Lately be inevitable. le_he referred of the immediate effects of the change then ma reed more especially to the sub stitution for a periodical renew al of the charter of a simple provision that the governme itetaeyr alteration in the parliament India should remain as ent determined ether was then constituted until F d s ia. of that change vise—one of the inamediate ef i f i e ft p mn y that it kept the affairs of ro ng i e e V i r a Z i s, : and it and constantly under the attention of P rn arl' e ight arise was foreseen by every one that circumstances 'which would naturally lead to a further government of India. During the last three or they had had almost constant discussions in Parliament, i n the press, and above all, among the great commercialnbo body in the country, with regard to many of those great '- ques tions of internal government which were of most interto all connected with India. The Chief Justice and other noble lords had repeatedly called attention to the defecti ve administrati on o f j ust i ce i n India; and there had:also been a great deal of discussion with regard to the tenure land, th e growt h of cotton, the annexation ti polic y oforl Dilhousie, thi s l as t su bj ect involving one of the most d€ Ii seta of all questi ons , namely, the relation s which subsisted between the gover nmen t o f I nd i a and the native states was a remarkable featu re o f th ese di scuss i ons that all *the' complaints which bad been made of the defective state of affairs, or of errors which had been committed, were almost always committed by the opponents of the Indian government with the form and structure of that govern +nt. Whether this subject were agitated in England or is India, in the commercial cities of this country or in Parliament, it was constantly assumed that the defective action of the government was owing to its faulty structure, and that the existing system, instead of being a source of e t reng th , wa s a perpetual fountain of embarrassment, mis toderstanding, and weakness. Ho was sure the house would agree with him that there could be nothing more ngerous for it , govern t than to have its errors of policy men eif tributed to defects in its organic structure, And was it a+ all surprising that there sh ould be a very great amount of prejudice against the government of the East India Company Let them consider for a moment what that governmen t was believed to be. India was even now- , - st. , change ',would be made by the bill in that respect - ,der the dominion of the Crown. Parliament long ago de li that Leila formedpart of the eropito of thecrown, Thu THE SUN LONDON, F 1111DAW EVENING, FEBRUARY 12, 1858 t in which was termed in legal phrase olo gy a governmen government of the East India Board was a government l u mametances could justify the Crown being considered in a t t re s c t r ;" ow t ie h . e H C o e m w p o a u n l y d w n o a t s atop said tott ohold Ind inquire ia whether in t any rd ()Tr ' : state of pupilarity with regard to any of its dominions. But there were two questions which could not be passed by . first, who were the parties w ho hel d I ndia in trust ; and . secondly, what were their powers ? In reply to the first question it might be said the parties were what was called the East India Company. But what was that clam pally ? They all well knew that it was formerly what its name implied, a company of merehants trading with the East Indies. In that way its authority began, and through that means was its empire established. Parliament how ever thought it was a mistake to mix up questions of policy with questions of commerce, and in 1833 the Court of Di rectors became mere instruments to assist the ministry of the day in ruling Indf a. He knew it might be said that that change removed many of the old objections to the system ; but on the other hand it destroyed many of the arguments by which were maintained the desirableness and the necessity of perpetuating the existing separation between the crown and an empire which belonged to it. If the Best India Company were no longer a commercial body, and therefore no longer had any teenptation to exer cise dominion for corrupt ends, there could no longer be any reason why India should continue to be governed in a manner which led to so much misunderstanding, end which almost everyone admitted to be attended with so many in conveniences. (Hear, hear.) Now let their lordships look for a moment at the effect of the Indian mutiny in refer ence to this question. His noble friend who presented the petition seemed to think that the Government had some charge to bring against the East India Company, and that it was on that ground that they wished to abolish the pre sent system. That was not the course of conduct which the Government had adopted. The practical effect of the mutiny would undoubtedly be this, that for many years to come increased attention would be devoted to many of the most difficult and delicate questions relating to the government of India that could possibly be agi tated in Parliament. The questions of the tenure of land, of the administration of justice, and of the relations be• tween the Government of India and the native princes, were questions to which increased attention woul I un doubtedly be paid in this country, and they would all be debated with reference to those anomalies and faults which every one confessed to exist in the structure of the Indian Government. To show the reality of their danger, he might refer to a speech which was delivered by an eminent indi vidual in another place towards the close of the last ses sion, a speech which was marked by a display of that indi vidual's well-known ability. Towards the close of that speech allusion was made to what had, as he believed, been erroneously called the annexation policy of Lord Dalhousie; and a comparison had been drawn between the faith which had been kept by the Government of the East India Com pany with the native sovereigns and the faith which would be kept with them and the imperial crown. Now, he could conceive no question that required more delicate handling than that and he was convinced that if such matters were discussed under the present order of things, they would always be discussed with reference to those organic changes which it was impossible to deny were demanded, not merely for the sake of securing symmetry of form, but by common sense. The East India Company did not deny in their peti tion that some change might naturally be expected as the result of what had recently occurred ; but they maintained that no change ought to be made without a preliminary inquiry. It was all very well for his noble friend (Earl Grey) to throw over his clients as he had dons that night, and to repudiate the course which they recommended ; but he submitted to the house that in dealing with the peti tion they must deal with it as it was laid on the table, and must consider simply the recommendations which it made, and the alternatives which it placed before them. He agreed with his noble friend that a preliminary in quiry, tending avowedly to a change in the mode of govern ing India, would produce the most pernicious offsets. It would, he believed, pending the inquiry, be impossible to prevent popular agitation, not only in this country, but in India. In support of this remark he would refer to a letter which bad recently been received from a distinguished servant of the East India Company, and which, though the letter was written on a different subject, bad an un fortunate bearing on this question. Their lordships would, no doubt, recollect that one of the charges—he meat say one of the most scandalous charges—made against Lord Canning was that during the period of the mutiny he had given some civil employment to a gentleman of the Ma homedan faith—a gentleman who was, he believed, as faithful to the crown as any one of the Europeans now re sident in India. It was considered by the Government of India that this gentleman could be of service in a particu lar part of India, and therefore he was appointed, but the appointment was met by a shout of indi g nation from those who were called the Calcutta public. By the last mail there had soma from Lord Canning a defence of that ap pointment-ea defence which he (the Duke of Argyll) be lieved to be quite unnecessary—and among the documents sent was a letter from a gentleman residing is the city of Patna, where the Mahomedan gentleman referred to exer cised his office. The writer of this letter said :—" Many people endeavour to persuade themselves that the natives are not aware of the contents of the English papers, and that so far as they are concerned, it is immaterial what appears in these publications ; but this is a verygreat mis take. The English papers have for many years past formed the source to which the native news-writers and the native papers look for their intelligence of our movements and intentions. Since this revolt commenced the greatest anxiety has been manifested to learn what the English papers say, and every one fortunate enough to get hold of an English paper is called upon to translate it for the edi fication of large circles of listeners, who again retail the news and comments of the journals in their villages. It came to my notice accidentally, the other day, that the Nujeebs at Mozufferpore were in the habit of having the English papers translated to them, and there can be no doubt that whatever appears in the English papers which can in any way serve the purposes of the disaffected is speedily made known to them by their agents in Calcutta or elsewhere. To suppose that it can be otherwise is to give our enemies credit for a degree of wilful blindness and negligence which forms no part of their character. Theirin telligence department has always been remarkably good, and they certainly would not neglect the most simple and obvious means of ascertaining our views and intentions." He would not continue quoting, but he would observe that the writer dwelt very strongly on the danger to England which would arise if there was an agitation of the question of the form of government in the Indian press. New, he must remind their lordships that if there ware any delay in this matter they would have hereafter to deal with the question under circumstances which did not at present exist and which would tend to increase the danger attending the settlement of it. He had no knowledge of the intentions of Lord Canning or the Indian Government in reference to the relaxation of the present restrictions on the Indian press; but he knew that in the address which his lordship made in reference to those restrictions he observed that it was not without great reluctance that any man who had breathed the free air of English life could recommend such a step to the English legislature, and he entertained little doubt that whenever he considered it safe to do so he would remove the restrictions which now existed. When this had been done, however, there would doubtless be an e r plosion of those passions which had long been pent up; and if, there fore, there were any delay, the question of an organic change in the Government of India might have to be considered under circumstances of great disadvantage, if not of posi tive peril, to the best interests of our Indian empire. Now, on all these grounds he maintained that if they had reads op their minds—and he thought he saw on all sides lee:Genital,' teat ~L1,11`.71.3 i");C cal'—that the structure of the Indian Government required some change, it wee des'r able that the change, whatever it might b e , s h ou ld b e ma d e as speedily as possible. Let them avoid the evils which the East India Company dreaded, namely, that of making in the first instance a change of policy. Let them first change the system of Government, and lot them proceed, with the assistance of a strong, united, and unassailable Go vernment, to deal wisely and considerately with the great questions that must be raised. (Hear, hear.) In speaking of the danger of introducing party politics into Indian questions, the noble earl (Earl Grey) drew a contrast be tween the manner in which the Governor-General was appointed and the manner in which Lord Torrington was appointed. Lord Torrington was, of course, appointed by the Crown; but every one knew that, practically, Lord Canning was also appointed by the Crown; and he had not the slightest doubt that if Lord Canning were guilty of any act of doubtful character, it would immediately be made a question of party politics, as Lord Torrington's conduct was. Party politics was, he considered. a mere bugbear in this case; it was one of those objections to change which people had gone on repeating again and again, because they could not perceive that the circum stances under which the objection applied were wholly different from those of the present day. Thera was another question which had great influence in this matter- not perhaps in that house, but certainly out of doors ho meant the question of party politics. He would not anticipate the measure of the Government, bnt he did entreat their lordships to remember what the case with regard to patron. age really was. Here, nein, was another instance of tra ditional feeling. The patronage is India, which was really lucrative and important, had long been practically in the bands of the Government in India, and it ought to remain there. (Hear.) The patronage which took place in this country was not a patronage to place but a patronage to service ; the Government did not appoint to place, but they appointed to service. One of the great changes in 1853 was the throwing open to competition of the whole civil service of the East India Company. Any man from any school in the United Kingdom may come and demand admierton if he can beat his fellow competitors. What re mained, then, in the way of patronage but the military cadetships ? As to them, almost all parties are agreed that one consequence of the recent events will be a considerable diminution of the native army, and a corresponding dimi nution of the patronage. All he would say was, that if both houses of Parliament should be dissatisfied with tke pro posal which Lord Palmerston - would make, he trusted they would take into their own hands the task . of proposing some modification—anything, in fact, that would get rid of this bugbear, which would interfere with their doing away with that which was but a mere name and a farce, and as suming the government of India in the name of the crown, to which at this moment it legally and practically belonged. He would refer to one other point which was a good deal dwelt on out of doors—he meant the time. It was said they ought not to introduce such a bill at this moment. There was a belief that 100 years after the battle of Plassy the Company's IN was to come to an end. If a change took place, the sepoys would believe it was brought about by them, and be persuaded they had nothing to do but to re bel in order to bring about a great change in the govern ment. He had always thought this one of the meet fanci ful arguments he bad ever heard. Ho would not dwell on t u lle! peat th en . It h a d b een f ul l y s h own t h at our emp i re had deParted, He trusted and believed that if the Com- P r Z l o 7 ;" tb ß e al im was now to give way it would give way to the had now the n eak w e h s i v el l i a vi ce i_ll e n i e th ve e r r keep it ; and or declinedother of two at p w : imperial a e l v e e r n o t : l great degree from the valour of those who cease they unti had have raised the ight in ellipire, and lately shown they were able to selves. (Bear.) ecel speed the time when they should people of India more to the level of them- The Earl of ELLEN BOROUGH said that he rose not to expres s any new opinion on the subject brought under their lordships' consideration; he had only o t f t l h a c s , o s: e s session. the to repeat what he had rejoiced as theythe close of . 11 0e o sic t ;I l l a , e f n or de ii expresse d creh e they had been at the common subject would have been broughtcem beforeeiit he feared this great view to an immediate and summa Parliament with a even more than the reconstruction e o n f steuttletaertt; it e z India, and he thought it highly inexpediente ') ;ll e a run'ent of a subject should come under consideration when that so great no probability, from the continuance of the war, t r li e s7t 'a :t would receive that =taro deliberation which could alma . , bring it to a successful issue. (Hear, hear.) At the same time he distinctly stated, and he still hold, that great advantage would be derived and great straugth imparted to the Government of India if it were carried on directly in the 114010 of the Crown (Hear,) he was 4till of opinioil that a measure going to that extent, only with a few subsidiary al terations required to carry it into effect, would most mate rially eonduceto the peaceful and satisfactory settlement of the difficulties in which they were involved. He had always stated that he considered a council of India essential to its good government, but that council should be thoroughly independent—(hear) —and he considered that at least a por tion of it should be of an elective character. The petitioners, the proprietors of East India stock, had themselves caused the danger which now threatened the Company—they had caused it by their mode of electing directors. If they had been actuated by public spirit, and, looking around them for the ablest men and those of the highest reputation in the Indian service, had placed them among the directors, no government would have dared to touch them, and they would have conciliated the affections and commanded the approbation and confidence of the country. It was because they had departed from that rule—because they had been led by private interests, and had given to canvass what they ought to have given to services—that danger now threatened them. It was this misconduct on their part which had ' enabled her Majesty's Government, without any material opposition, to introduce in the court at the last settlement six members to be appointed by the Crown. Although he might question the manner in which the power had been exercised on one or two occasions, yet every one must admit that there was more strength, more reputation, more that could be trusted in the five directors appointed by the Crown, than in the whole of the other thirteen ; of the thirteen only three had any claim at the time of their election on account of services in India ; several of them of course had since acquired knowledge and practice which rendered them competent. One of the best mem bers of tho court he ever know was a captain of a ship, who knew nothing of India but what he saw from the dock of his vessel; but, being an honest and able man, he soon became an excellent directo r . H e considered the present time peculiarly inopportune for the consideration of this question. If indeed there had been any obstruction on the part of the court to the measures of the government foe reinforcing the army—if they had not made themselves ancillary in all respects to the objects of the government, then there would have been a necessity for an instant alte ration. If in such a case he were in the Ministry, he would have called the Parliament together instanter, and made a change in order to save India. But he had never heard even a suggestion that such was the case. Indeed it was impossible to conceive it could. Tho court must have known the danger, and he was convinced the Government had some influence in the court, and had only to intimate a wish to have it at once adopted. It was evident that such was the case ; for by the present law, if the Govern ment sent more than 24,000— excep t a t the request of the Company—they should pay for them. The noble baron could not move one man or one gun without sending to the India-house to get the board to go through the form of asking for them. When the bill of 1853 was before the house he differed from his friends, and wished it should pass; he saw that war was looming, and advised them to set their house in order, and not be forced to discuss so important a measure when their attention was distracted by war. The next year the Crimean war broke out ; Go vernment was pledged to introduce a measure of reform, but withdrew it, on the ground that it could not be properly considered. They were now involved in a much greater war. (Hear.) With insufficient forces they were strug gling with a greater enemy, and yet at this moment they ware required to reconstruct the whole government of India, and also to consider that very reform bill; they were desired to take to pieces the whole constitution of the government of India, and at the same time take to pieces that most important part of the constitution of this coun try which regulated the election of the House of Commons, (Hear.) He knew very well what the result would be. When the bill was brought in it would be debated much more than the Government imagined. In the mean time they would be compelled by the unanimous clamour of the attorneys, who were more interested in reform thou anybody else ; by the press, which they influenced ; and by the pressure from a few earnest men, to hiring in a measure of reform. When that was done the passion of all f arties would be so much excited that attention would no longer be paid to the details of the measure for regulating the Government of India, and while they were involved in a party quarrel the Government of India would slip from their hands. (Hear.) Before they engaged in the consideration of this measure he entreated them to consider what their position in India really was. They had been told fortnight after fortnight, as each tele graphic message had arrived, that the head of the mutiny was broken, that it was crushed, yet the mutiny still ex isted. They had just heard that Sir Colin Campbell had taken Furruckabad. He had reason to know what was the exact force under the Commander-in-Chief, under General Outrun, and under Col. Seaton, on Dee. 7. At that date the total force with Sir C. Campbell was 11,0J0 men, ex clueive of the artillery, who served 36 guns. From that period till Deo. 20, 230 men a day were forwarded from Calcutta by daks. All these would have arrived by the day Furruckabad was taken. Ho had left two regiments at Benares, so that the whole force at his disposal for field operations would he at the outside 17,500 men. The Go vernor General of India may have shown energy and ability (parliament said he had, and Parliament must be right) in summoning to his aid as may troops as possible, and in providing land carriage for the detachments mentioned, but these qualities had not enabled him to provide G,500 with the carriage, without which they could not move. In point of fact, Sir Colin Campbell, after his victory, was detained a whole fortnight at Cawnpore, because he had not the means of moving. Did it appear that a single one of the new cavalry regiments was yet mounted ? Had they a single horse fit for service ? Was a single one of the batteries sent out yet horsed Elephants were essential during the rains, yet not a single elephant tvas sent up till the rains were over. In dry weather camels were very useful. They might have mounted cavalry armed with lances on there ; but no camels were pro vided. If they could not have got horses, even bullocks would have been useful. They were told it was a mutiny and not a revolution, and yet at this moment Sir C. Camp bell held nothing on the left bank of the Ganges above Allahabad. Between Allahabad and Benares he held nothing but the high road OH which his detachments moved. They held nothing ou the right bank of the Jumna. The whole of Central India was up against them, and the armies even of the princes who had rema i ne d faithful had revolted against their masters. A column under Colonel Durant had done excellent service, and relieved Neemuch ; but they had no force able to clear the right bank of the Nei , b udda. Saugor had never been relieved. They had lately heard of an outbreak at Oodypore ; they would be obliged all through Central India not merely to relieve their garri sons, but also to appear in force to re-establish the autho rity of those princes who had remained faithful to them. For all this they required an army which they had not now. He should like to know what measures were being takes to ensure a continuous supply of a number of men sufficient to execute the measures which were absolutely necessary to restore their authority and put down the enemy. The noble baron bad told them there was a continuous supply of 1,000 men a month • but he doubt e d w h e th er suc h was the case. Their fi rs t duty was to re-establish their empire and authority of the princes who had been faithful. When that was done, and they stood sovereign in the country, it would be time to think of framing a new government. That had always been his opinion, and he trusted it would become that of her Majesty's Government. They had to contend not merely with mutiny but with a revolution. He wished he could think it was only a moony. If it were, as soon as the enemy was put down in the field the whole country ought to have returned to its former condition. But did any man think that during any existing life, Eegliehman, still less an Englishwoman, would be aide to pass through the country with the feeling of security and reality of security which they had enjoyed for the last one hundred years? Tho beau'siful con fidence between them and the natives lead gone, he would not say for ever, but it had gone during the life of living men. When they read the in teresting, but painful letters written by persons who had fled for their lives, they could not doubt the people were against them ; they were hunted from village to village, stripped, forced to fly, and but rarely found a faithful ze minder to shelter them. It was not a mere hunting of them ; the fiendish atrocities committed were such as had never been heard of before. He had read of men being tortured, he had read of injuries done to women, but never in his life before had he road of cruelties practised on chil dren. They had heard of children dyieg of thirst under the sun of India, and not allowed to take a drop of wa'er from a village well. Such intense international hatred must have proceeded from some deeply seated cause. He believed there was such a cause, and on a future occasion he would give their lordships his views on it. One circum stance was the apprehension excited in the natives by the spirit of proselytism which was abroad, not directly sahc tinned by the Government, but which, being practised by persons in high office and high authority, assumed all the appearance and carried all the weight of a Government act. He was himself well aware that the resumption of rent-free tenures had involved in many cases the privation of property inherited from distant ancestors. He believed also that the recent further annexaelons and the disap pearance of the only remaining power in rivalry might have greatly increased that feeling of contempt for the natives laid to the charge of their countrymen. He knew that feeling had produced a mutiny in Bundelcund ,and it might have tended to produce this. He dial not know that the substitution of the Queen's name might effect this feeling in the heart of the civil service, but he believed it would have the effect of producing in the officers a better spirit of obedience to authority. He only knew two men in the country of whom he could not say they were those, " qui namselota interpretare magic quam sequi mallent." Many of those gentlemen, when they get an order, con sider and discuss it, and at length send out a report against an order, an order which ought to have been executed long before. He believed the substitution of the name of the crown would in this respect have a great effect. (Hear, hear.) Even under present circumstances the evil wee less than under the old system of appointment to the civil per vics by the directors. When there was a close connection between officers and the individual members of the board, they often ventured to disobey an order, especially if the Governor-General was not popular with the court, trusting that they would he protected at home. (Hear.) He be lieved a change of system, and the introduction of the Queen's name, would be particularly gratifying to the na tive princes. He would venture to suggest to her Majesty's Government that they should set aside for future mature consideration the details of a general measure for altering the relations between the Board of Directors and the army, and content themselves with a simple measure to provide for the use of the Queen's name in the administration of the government, with a few not very important alterations, necessary corollaries to the change. He always looked with great distrust on any attempt to extemporise constitutions; time and God's providence alone made constitutions; men with self-sufficient arrogance thought they could throw ofe constitutions to make happy millions of their fellows crestures, but they wore haffled by the providence which despised their infinite smallness. In the Indian govern ment there was much more of practice than of law ; any attempt to carry out the law would bring the government to a standstill. Mr. Dandas, when he found his measure eeeild net werk, adopted the system that he found. To make a good government they should look to the practice of farmer times much more than to any endeavour to make a perfect constitution. Tho Court of Directors, in their I petition, described a perfect council of India, and then said, " We ourselves aro the great and noble model, such as an able President of the Board of Control would desire." rho coun oil which he would suggest to aid the Presi dent of the Board of Control or Secretary of State, as the case might be, should be elective, and might pos. eeis , a t .n the er y il . s.ed constituency, and contain re stte,,bnreit,f,litriebv retashna.netlioNtvoaofsndlyon e leecaiidh administration r p ti r s e t s idency, but of each in time each\vo would presidency.e consideration, so that they would be enabled so to .filter end lee )rove the Government that it should tend to fe e • (Closers.) d esired to found—an eternal empire in India. Lord .A.BINGEIt said th a t so f ar as he could understand the plan of the Government, it was to assimilate the Board of Contra' to the system of administration pursued in other colonies. Re could not but look on such a ohange with fauspicion! Let th em l ook to the history of India io _ • - - the last century and a-half, and compare its rise in pro verity and greatness with the fate of other colonies under the undiluted system of colonial government. During that period the Colonial-office had lost the North American colonies, driven Canada to rebellion, and excited them to war at the Cape • it appeared to hi m th a t if thi s system was to be introduced into the government of India, the loss of India was inevitable. Probably many causes con curred to produce the present calamitous state of India ; but no one he thought could doubt that the annexation of Oude was the proximate cause of the existing state of things. Was that annexation the act of the Governor- General or the Board of Control, or the joint act of the Board of Control and the Court of Directors ? He pro fessed entire ignorance ; and the public were in ignorance on the subject, and yet it was of importance that they should know the real facts in order to arrive at a right decision as to the cause of these calamities. He hoped the Government would, for this reason, countenance the pro duction of this correspondence. The annexation of the Punjaub and Pegu were carried into execution with great ability and facility, but it did not follow from this that the annexation of Oude would be equally successful. The noble lord concluded by moving for the correspondence between the Court of Directors, the Board of C o nt ro l, an d the late Governor-General of India, relating to the annexa tion of Oude; and the correspondence between the said board and the directors on the same subject. Earl STANFIOPE said he did not rise for the purpose of opposing the motion, bat on a point of order. He wished to know whether the petition that had been presented by the noble earl—the merits of which in point of style and ability were admitted both by him and the noble duke— should not be printed for the general information of the house. Ho begged to suggest to the Government that the petition be panted and circulated for the use of their lordships. Earl GRANVILLE said there was a doubt about the rule of the house on the point, hut the rule generally fol lowed was, petitions should not be printed, and there was the less occasion for it on the present occasion because there was no member of the house who would not have the peti tion in print, if he had not had it already. With regard to the subject generally, he would not enter upon it in the present state of the house, and even if it had been fuller, he should not feel any great necessity for doing so, after the singularly able and temperate speech of the noble duke. If that were the proper time, however, there wore some arguments of the noble earl (Grey) which he thought he could confute, and some of his facts which he could show to be without foundation, as, for instance, the statement that the Afghan war had been disapproved of by the Court of Directors. [Earl Grey here made an observation which did not reach the gallery.] His noble friend, how ever, with his usual good Sense, did not concur in the only prayer of the petition, namely, that there should be an in quiry. If there was to be any change at all, he was of opinion that the sooner it took place the better. lie was extremely glad to hear from the noble earl opposite, whose remarks were of great importance and deserved the utmost consideration of the house, the declaration that nothing would have greater effect in India at the present moment than the Queen's name. He could not conceive anything more desirable and seasonable than that at the moment of incipient pacification, measures should be taken here which the noble earl told them would have the most soothing effect on the whole population of Tuella, ensure the more ready obedience of European subjects there, and be grate ful to the native princes of India. (Hear, hear.) This was the reason why her Majesty's 6-overnment thought it necessary to bring a measure before the house. They thought it right, not as was generally supposed, to change the whole government of India—but to introduce a mea sure for the simplification of that government by the in troduction Queen's name, an d a lt er i ng a system which h of the intheoryand practice was admitted to be most faulty. He hoped both houses of Parliament would well weigh the alternative —either of carrying this measure, which was not to destroy the India House, but to remove the Court of Directors, retaining the services of such men as the noble earl opposite referred to, and affording the people of India th e a d vantage of being governed in the Queen's name, or of having the government of India still conducted by that company, after the clamour which had been raised against it—after it had been condemned in a long and matured speech by the leader of the Conservative party in the other house—and after the opinions which had been delivered by the best followers of Sir R. Peel. He could not conceive anything more calculated to create an injurious impression in the minds of the people of In dia, and on the subjects of the crown in India, than that sort of delay which would leave ambiguity existing as to the future government of India, and the measures of the government open to attacks on all sides. Tho Earl of DERBY said the state of the house was certainly not such as to encourage a continuation of the I discussion, but still he was induced to rise by the state ment which had just been made by the noble earl opposite. He must say that if it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to do nothing more on the present occasion than what was stated by the noble earl—though at the present time and under existing circumstances he did not mean to say it would be judicious even to do that— but if it really were the intention of her Majesty's Government to make a more alteration of form, and not one of substance 1 in the government of India, they kept the country and the East India Company in the most profound ignorance, and created unnecessary alarm by the intimation which they gave to the East India Company that it was their inten tion to abolish the double government of India. Could any man suppose, after such an intimation, that the inten tion of her Majesty's government was to do nothing more than make an alteration in point of form—that the existing state of things was to be left untouched, with this difference cnly, that the government of India was to be conducted in the name of the Crown and not of the Com pany ? If this was all that was really intended in the first instance, her Majesty's governmeat must be fit subjects for a lunatic asylum in not explaining their views more clearly to the East India Company. When her Majesty, in the speech from the throne. told them that the affairs of India would require their serious consideration, and recotn mended them to their serious attention, did the govern ment intend to move for a committee, or were they going to legislate ou their owe responsibility ? Neither the East India Compamy nor the country could say what they were going to do. In a short time, however, they gave notice that they we r e go i ng t o d o away w i t h the double govern ment ; and when the East India Company very naturally asked what the government were goiieg to substitute for it, the government replied, " We hav e t o ld you t h at we are going to do away with the double government, but what the government have in contemplation it will be time enough for you to know when parliament meets." If they meant to do nothing more than what they were now given to understand it was their intention to do, he insist say they created great and unnecessary alarm, and treated the East India Company with the greatest want of courtesy. If the measure was to be an insignificant anti formal one they they expectevde,rtnhme.Yenn::: should have told the East India Company that fact, which would have removed a great deal of the apprehension which prevailed. But the real would factul submit;was, nt;he /yb:rueitdbfinrnootlitiignlstigntotfwhoort forward ea diffi culties irnd selves what they wero to met. They had not made uphtotehafrae.il:r minds before parliament met. They then made up their minds to an extensive measure to wahnidchhtahweyaseixnp,eepcatreeddthtoe immense and immediate East I n g d r i e a ,, tCompanygreater than friend ogpeporasiitgehtdee ois b ei a lee e tkandefipol miserablea m rut t o l ot i e f i her aen o rnt r icmg anticipate is a ite l ges fit,shcthe intention Government. advent, ee which his noble fiend (the Earl of Ellen borough) looked for from the substitution of the name of the Queen for that of the company. At all events, whe ther that were so or not, it was most unfortunate that her Majesty's government should have taken upon themselves to introduce at this moment, and under present circum stances, any change at all. (Hear.) If the state of India f India ware indeed in a state of incipient pacification; if peace ariserib described were restoi ed, and ou: supremacy re - established, ho could t u r n o d d e u r c s t t i a o n n d o t f h t a h t g ;t a i e t e a n' i s v anta name as the dispenser of mercy were snob as his noble and the restorer of concord. But he was sure the govern ment deceived themselves and the public if they persuaded themselves, or soughtto persuade the country, that they had arrived at that stage in which it could be said that our victory was complete, and thatpacification had commenced. For his own part, whether the measure was great or small, he deprecated the introduction of such a question and the rising of differences between her Majesty's government and the East India Company at the present moment. The circumstances were sufficiently grave, the position sufficiently difficult, and the state of affairs sufficiently critical, to engross the whole and undivided attention of the government and the East India Company for Oise pur pose of putting down the existing revolt, and restoring the pro t m ra p il teitiainliti t supremacy of the crown and the company ; and yet it was at such a moment, and under such circumstances, that her Majesty's government thought fit to int ro d uce a su bj ec t which was sure to excite differe nces, and distract the at iention of the government and th e E ast India Company f energetic action which was roth that common, to India. (Hear.) It appeared perfect madness to ra i se t h e question at this required to restore time. He understood from the noble earl that the mea sure was one of a much lees serious character than was supposed ; but any measure regarding the government of India would require serious and mature deliberation ; but ho believed the pubic was not then prepared for a measure of this kind, nor was that the period in whiOk it could bo safety and properly introduced. The motion was then agreed to, and their lordships ad journed at half-past 8, HOUSE OF COMMONS. —(YESTERDAY.) NEW WRITS. Oa the motion of Nir. 1121.YTER a new wr:t was granted for Wicklo w (County) in the room of Lord Mil. tun, called to th e U pper House as Lord Fita,villiam. PETITIONS. Several petitio La Were pre.ented relative to the pro posed change in the Government of India. - - ------- ED UCATION (ENGLAND.) Sir J. PAKINGTON rcse to move the following rsso'u tion :—• That an humble address bo presented to her Ma jBeiosty,tothiantqusihiee:iwintou tbheegraprecsieonutslsytapteleoafsedpoptuoliasrsueedauccaotmi?mniisn- England, and whether the present system is or is not suffi cient for its object; and to consider and report what changes, if any, are required for the extension of sound and cheap elementary instruction to all classes of the people." Ho said he was personally reluctant again to 'invite the attention of th 3 house to the qu es ti on of national o d uca ti c u, and ho hoped the house would believe that in doing so ho was only ear:Wed by a sense of public duty. He well knew the disinc'inatiou the house had to hear a subject repeatedly brought forward by t'r.e same person, but he treated they would boar in mind that tliough this was n o .p ar t; subject, nor- of-any political bea.ing in a party sense, it was a subject directly affecting in the hiOiest sense a most numerous a helple s class of our fellow-subjects. In submitting his proposition for the appro val of a newly--elected House of Commons, ho should not enter into a detailed statement as formerly, with a view to establish the educational deficiency that exist' d in this coun t' y. The statements he put forth on a former occasion with r.speet to that deficiency had never been contradicted, and he proposed on the present occasion to base his argument of defieie .cy on them. On a former occasion he referred to the statements of chaplains of gaols, and amongst them to the statement of the Rev. Mr Clay, of Preston, who stated that 40 per cent. of V_ e prisoners committal to Preston gaol word ignorant of the name of our Saviour, and from 60 to 70 per cent. were ignorant of the name of the Queen. He also stated - the ignorance of an immense number of the children in the Lond(..n workhouses, as well as those in the workhorses of Birmiugham, Manchester, and other large places, obtained from the oficial statements of the inspectors of schools, The Deal of Hereford also spoke of the great ignorance that existed in Bath and Wells, Wiltshire, and other places, and as they had not been contradicted be (Sir J. Pakington) had a right to say they were correct. That rev, gentleman often lamented the ignorance that prevailed both in the rural - districts and the towns, the want of schools, and the lava. _ . cieney of those in existence. lie had been asked what was the necessity of a commission of inquiry, when all the infor mation they desired was to be found in the reports of the oft report last year, a h re, was Government inspector—but hi s answer was that he needed calle t d ha a t tt o e f ri t t h i e on ße t v o . , no stronger evidence in supp or t o f an inquiry than the re ports in Mr. Stewart, the Government i nspec t or for Cambridgeshire, Huntingdonshire, Bedfordshi re, H er ef ordshire, and Bucking contained tbe blue-book The firs hamshire, at pages 446 and 447, wherein he spoke of the dif ficulty that existed in remote agricultural districts for the advancement of education, and the insufficiency of the Go vernment grants for the demands of the various districts re quiring help. The Rev. Mr. Wood, the Government inspec tor for Berkshire, gave a similar statement ; and Mr. Mit chell, the Government inspector for Norfolk, Suffolk, and Essex, reported that out of 205 schools, 41 were excellent, 35 were so bad that it would be a great a Ivantsge to stop them, and 129 were more or less efficient —some progressing, others retrograding. He did not know how the Government proposed to meet his motion, but he had based it on the re ports of their inspectors, whom he presumed were trust worthy, and would 'melee contradicted or disputed by the Government. (Hear.) In his (Sir .T.Pakington's) own neigh bourhood, Mr. I3ellair expressed his regret at the partial ex tent of education there. In very many places, both in town and country the schools were inefficient, and it was much to be desired that an inquiry should take place into the edu cational deficiencies of the country, from thestatements being so vague and coat adictory that it was almost impossible to arrive at a proximation of the truth. The right hon. baronet read a letter ho had that morning received from the Rev. Mr. Stone, of Bethnal-greeu, stating that a school in the new parish of St. James's, Bethnal-green, f or 200 b ays, h a d been obliged to be c l ose d for two years for want of funds,'and there was no chance of its being re-opened. In reference to the funds of schools, Mr. Watkins, i ns p ec t or o f Y ork, on a former occasion, stated that he had divided England ieto twenty-two educational districts, and there were only two out of that where the expenditure did not exceed the income. In 1855-56 the excess of expenditure over income was G per cent. and in 1856.57 it had increased to 71 or 8 per cent. Another point which attracted attention was the early age at which children loft school—an overwhelming proportion of them were under 10 years of ago, and what was worse the number increased from year to year. From a return furnished him by the Secretary to the Educational Board, he found that the children at school, above 10 years of age from 1850 to 1857 inclusive, was 37 and a fraction per cent. ; in 1852 it was 39 and a fraction, brit every other year it had decree' ed unti it had sunk from 37 and a fraction to 27 and a fraction from " Johnson's Atlas of Physical Geography," he found that:out of a list of 17 countries, showing the estimated per centage of the populaticn between 7 and 14 years of age re ceiving instruction in those different countries, he was sorry to find England stood tenth on the list—(hear)—the highest was Saxony, where, within a slight fraction, the whole of the children of the above; ages were at scho o l. In the United States and New England, they were 95 per cent; in Holland 94 per cont. ; and then came Prussia, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden and Norway, Belgium, Austria, and then England, which only amounted to 45 per cent. The same contrast was preseutedby other portions of our own country, for Scotland stands very far above England in that respect. In Canada an admirable system of education existed, and in Australia the people were most anxious to establish a sound system of education that should reach all parts of the population. The question of education was regarded less within the walls of that house than any part of the kingdom which he attributed to their being too prone to devote their attention to party struggles than to direct their attention to those matters that only affected the welfare andlinterests of the people apart from sneh party struggles. (Hear, hear.) A strong feeling was entertained out of doors on the question, not by noisy politicians, who were striving to promote political changes, but an important class of persons who constituted public opinion on this question, and to which he deferred ; in support of which ho referred to the educa tional conference held last summer, and presided over ty Prince Albert, for the devising means for preventing children leaving school at an early age. He (Sir J. Pakington) believed they must look to the half-time system for a remedy both in towns and agricultural districts. He considered it could be carried out successfully, and he alluded to its adoption by the lion, member for Nottingham and Lord Hatherton in the country districts. He also appealed to the noble lords (Rus sell and Stanley), and also to the hon, members for Hullers field in reference to the interest expressed in the question of education, at a meeting for the promotion of social science, presided over by Lord Bro ug h am . If h e h a d established that the educational state of the country was unsatisfactory, and out of doors great interest was felt in the question, he was justified in asking the house to join him in his endeavour to solve this difficult question ; and then arose the question. in what manner it could best be done, In asking for an in quiry into the subject, he did not consider he was was from his former expressed opinion that th e house compe tent to do so ; but it was perfectly clear the GOTC!nment were not disposed to do so, as he thought they ought (and in say. ing that he begged to remark that he was not censuring the Government, because any other Government would feel equally indisposed to do so,) (Hear.) In 1855 and 1857 he attempted to legislate on the question, but he failed from acci dental causes. In 1855 he was unable to go to a division and take the sense of the house on the question from want of time, and in 1857 he was prevented by the dissol t ution of Par liament. But in the intervening year the noble lord the member for London brought forward his bill, which was de feated, more from feelings of opposition and prejudice rather than reason and argument. He believed that had the house gone to a division, though the prieciples were sound, they would have been defeated. As the question now stood there was no immediate prospect of legislation, and the question was, whether they should leave it as it now was, or whether they might fairly and reasonably expect that the present sys tem under the Commit' eo of Council and grants of Parlia ment, would so grow and expand that they might look to that system as sufficient for the educational requirements of the country. Ho was as conscious as any man could be of the great advantages derived from the Committee of Conned, and had hailed with satisfaction their grants, and the extent to which they hal fostered and encouraged education, In 1856 the noble lord the member for London said it was not the ob ject of those who founded the system of the committee of council that that system should supersede all local efforts, but that it should rather form a nucleus of an educational move ment. In that statement he (Sir J. Pakington) concurred : but he still considerd it questionable whether that system could be carried much further. He believed that for the future the amount of the grant would bo increased by 100,000/., but if the system was to be extended, the number of inspectors would jiave greatly to be increased. Would not this augmen tation lead to centralisation? (Hear, hear, from 31r. Henley.) He doubted whether the powers of the committee of council were not greater now than they ought to be, The expenditure of so largo a sum of money, spread over so large an area, must inevitably, ho thought, baffle a proper supervision. Minute and complicated arrangetneirs connected with the distribution of the grant would not work advantageously. The present system he might characterise as half a system, and ho should like to see it more nearly approximated to the poor-law sys tem, into which local superintendence largely entered. In quiry, ho contended, was desirable en these grounds, but It was also called for by reason of the length of time whiek had elapsed since the question of public education had been the subject of Parliamentary inquiry. There had been insole"- in 1818 at the instance of Lord Brougham, whose exertions deserved all praise. Inquiry was also made in 1834-5 ; but since 1852, when a committee sat on the Manchester and Sal ford Bill, public iuvestigation had rot taken place. The last committee had dealt rather with a subject of local than of national importance. Believing that inquiry was loudly called for, he had the alternative of a commission or of a committee. By asking for a committee ho might, perhaps, have obtained a greater share in directing its deliberations, and pressing them forward; but the collection of evidence was a matter in volving considerable time, and all such inquiries were inure or less tinged with the opinions and views of individual mem bers. A commission, on the other band, w u itid pruse,rate its labours with the assistance of Government. There was a con siderable analogy between the reference to the Poor-law Com mission of 1833 and that which ho now asked the house to grant. Much advantage had arisen from the former commis sion, the Government of the day having immediately fouudod a measure of lasting benefit upon its report. The only differ ence between the former eorumission and the ono he asked was that the former was the spontaneous act of the Minister of the Crown, whilst the present commission was asked by one not an habitual supporter of the Government of the day. Ho hoped the Government would rise superior to any considera tiou of this kind, and that they would grant, in the great in terests of popular education, the commission, (Cheers.) Lord STANLEY seconded the motion. Mr. HARDY complimented the right honourable baronet the member for Droitwich upon the moderation which had marked his speech ; but the real question at issue was, whether the present system of education had gradually advanced that boon in the country, and whether as much progress had been made as could reasonably be expected. Ile believed that education had ramified of late years, and that in proportion es the educating class improved the con dition of the poorer classes would also improve. The present comtnissieuers of education were obtaiuiug more knowledge respecting education, and adding to the niamb,r and improv ing the character of our schools. They had already as much information as was wanted, and wore not to rest their opinions on the report of a commission. They could best improve edu cation by their own efforts in their respective localities. If, as was said, the matter was not ripe for legislation, the rea son was the country- did not want legislation. Mr. lIADFIELD moved an amendment to the resolution to the effect that the commission should he appointed to in quire whethar tho education should be wholly secular or wholly religious, or partly the one and partly the other ; and if religious, what religion they would recommend. The right hon, baronet appeared alw rye determined to make out that thwe was a great want of education in the country. But what were the facts! During the last year 544,000,00 letter:4 of all sorts passed through the Post-office, and this eat/mous amount of c nfidenco must afford evidence of how well the People were educated, and if the existing systoot were con tinued for a few years longer, he felt confident that the num bers of letters pas.iug through the Post-offie r would not be less than a thousand millions in the year. There were in the different Sunday and day schools in the country not less than 3,591,000 scholars, and this out of a total p vulation of 18,030,000. The number of scholars was greatly Increasing, and the next census would, he believed, exhibit a most sur prising increase iu the number of teachers and scholars. The increased circulation of the newspapers was also another proof of the extent of education in the country. Tll3 Sunday schools of the country were doing an immense amount of good, and they would be seriously endangered by any act of the G >vent moot which would bring it ioto anything like opposition to the conduct of those very excellent establishments, in which the working classes felt so much interest, and in which they reposed a large amount of confidence. (Hoar, hear,) Mr. GILPIN seconded the amendment, Mr. ACKROYD expressed himself favourable to the pro• posed commission, and thou4ht that such a mode of inquiry would be more preferable than one by means of a committee. Believing that the inquiries of the commission would be attended with benefit to the cause of education, h• should feel great pleasure in giving his suppo t to the resolution of the right hon, baronet the member for Droitwish (Hear.) Mr. A. B. HOPE could not make up Iris mind to believe that the practical effect of the proposed resolution would be any other than an addition of a bulky blue-book to the numerous other works of a similar class under which the shelves of public and private libraries already groaned. There was already a huge Tower of Babel of educational literature, and the effect of the appoiu ing of this commission would be only to add another coping stone to the already bulky and useless pile. (Hear, hear.) He believed that if the commission were appointed it would only endorse the pr,:sent system of education, which had been found to work so well and so practically. ?Ir. RICHARDSON said that if the motion had applied to Ireland he should have given it his most strenuous opposi tion. sion f I Nv .. oluVidje-oreX said it h Lad n ss s n a i n e ( e l d re ti c i o a m t mtheenedoaitiliouniss and then tho se conc l us i ons an d recommendations had beet; vigorouely assailed. N o w he saw no reason at all why th ey tocerta ' co d nelu been sio a should anticipate such recommendationi. This was a com mission of inquiry, and he was content to wait the results of that inquiry. Mr. ADDERLEY said the house had been anxious to hear the opinions of the Government. When the right hon. baro net proposed his resolution he (Mr. Adderley) was called on to weigh the proposition whether the present system of edu cation had been advantageous or detrimental, and he w as i n . cline(' to beliovs that the present Ustcra i i rcatQd well, Supposing, however, they were to have an inquiry, he con sidered they ha i a sufficient organisation in inspectors for the purpose without the appointment of a commission that would entail an immense expense. Allusion had been made to the Poor-law Commissions, and he would remind the house that it cost the country 50,000/.—a smaller sum than such a roving commission as this would cost. The present inspectors, he thought, might give them all the information they needed, They were a large body needlessly multiplied from every sect of religion, having its inspector iu every locality, and much of the time was occupied in writing vicious reports, three fourths of the contents being essays on theories of education, and each vieing with the other in producing the best compo sition, which often leads them to make the most ridiculous propositions. He thought they relied in that house too much on statistics. He was much averse to them, for they were will-o'-the-wisps flitting about a question to deceive. He con sidered the best thing the house could do was to extend the present system, which must be considered au advance in na tional education. The system was no doubt started too high, but that defect had been seen, and was now being remedied. He hoped the house would not grant the commission without a division, and in the event of its being granted they should be instructed to examine into the middle-class schools. (Hear, bear.) Ho thought there it would be found to be a mass of endowments belonging to them misapplied, and he instanced the case of a person receiving 1001. to 200/, with a pupil. (Hear.) Mr. COWPER said he had no wish to impede the spread of information, or to stand in the way of procuring all the in formation possible ; but there was something in the terms of the motion that made it difficult to accede to it. An inquiry into the half-time system, and many other branches, was very desirable : but he did not think the inspectors could be em ployed in obtaining the required information, for there were no superabundant inspectors, but, in fact, they were over worked. The schools under inspection were fairly represented in the reports before Parliament; but there was no means of giving the information required relative to middle-class schools. The present system was sufficient for its objects, and he thought it was not desirable to enter into a consideration of any others, as the terms of the motion implied. It was a system that lied grown and entwined itself into the habits, feelings, and dispositions of the people, and whatever its defects it was well fitted for the English people. By the terms of this motion the commission would be bound to hear all parties who wished to give evidence in favour of the German system or other continental systems, as well as on special denominational and secular systems. (Hear.) It was not t eat the house wanted to inquire into, but how the pre sent system could be more extended and more used, an object which he thought the motion would fail to accomplish. Could the terms of the resolution be confined to that, much of the objection to it would be removed, because he thought, how ever expensive the commission might be, the house would not refuse to grant the necessary feuds on a subject of to much magnitude and vital interest to the nation. (Hear, hear.) Much valuable information might be obtained from various societies, but the only complete information as regarded the numbers, dm. at school, could on ly b e go t b y a census, f or which they had only threa years to wait. One of the greatest evils was the early age at which children left school, their irregular attendance, and the indifference of parents to con tinue their children at school, but he believed we were not worse in that respect than France. The demand for child labour was so pressing and urgent that he despaired of being able to produce a measure by which the children of working classes might be kept to school, except of a compulsory cha racter, which in all probability that house would not sanction. (Hear, hear.) The education of the working classes ought not to finish with elementary schools. They were useful in lay ing the foundation of au education that should be continued in after years by attending night schools. The Privy Coun cil was giving assistance in that manner, and it had met with considerable success, e , pecially in Loudon. Two con ditions, however, were necessary to bo observed—viz., care. ful classification of students, and instruction such as those frequenting the schools desired. That was being followed with success at King's College, where the students selected their topics of education, and it was remarkable that those least expected were chosen, such as French and Latin. (Hear.) With regard to school accom modation they had more than was made use of. They had school accommodation for 870,000, but there were only 570,000 children attending the schools. The Privy Council felt that the progress of education was consistent with the permanent grants made by that house, By the returns made -to the National Society, it appeared that though the schools diminished, the scholars increased, showing that the schools kept by inefficient persons were giving way to larger and bet ter conducted ewes He defended the house from the ch ergo of indifference to the subject made by the right hon. baronet, and said that ho thought there was less indifference on the part of the religious bodies and the Government than amongst the great bulk of the holders of property and the middle classes, He was opposed to the imposition of a rate as likely to retard rather than advance edueation. He suggested that the rightlhon, baronet should amend his resolutiou so as to omit the part with reference to considering a change of the present system. Mr. HENLEY said ho concurred in the remark of the right hon. gentleman, and regretted that a similar appeal he had made to the right hon. baronet had been unsuccessful. Another point was this. They all knew that in this metro polis there were a vast number of children who neither went to school nor to work, and these were the children to whom attention ought in the first instance to be directed. Those who went to school at all were of course iu a much happier situation than those who never wont to school at all. Now, what was the likeliest mode of getting at those children? He believed that a commission was not tho right method, but that humbler methods should be adopted. It was very diffi cult toget behind the scenes in those cases, and almost impos sible to get at the seasons why their parents did not avail themselves of the advantages offered to them. He thought that those zealous men-who were employed by the home mis. sionary societies would be more likely to achieve that object than any commissioners, however able they might be. He should be very glad if his right honourable friend (Sir J. Pakington) could agree with the Government in a schema. for he believed that a mere general scheme must result in mere secular teaching. It had been so in America, and it would be so here. He could not help seeing many things going on which should snake the friends of religious educe tion very cautious. Ho did not mean that doctrinal teach. ing should bo given at mere specified homes. If the friends or religious education allowed themselves to be driven into t te corner they would give up their case. The master should be an intelligentoarnest man, who would take every o tportunity of turning his teaching to advantage. If children lied or stole, as children would do, he should tell them that those vices were contrary to the commands of God, and if they wore ill-natured, he should remind them that they should be kindly-affectioned ono to another, for that was the command of Christ. If a man was directed to teach no religion, ko would toll a child who stole that ho must steal no more for fear of the big policeman, and that would be the basis of his morality. (Near.) These were reasons why he was afraid of any of these general schemes, and why he would rathar deem op those systems which were in force, and which were tending to great good. He hoped the right hon.. baronet (Sir J. Pakington) would consent to limit his se:eeme in the way the-right hon. gentlemen (Mr. Cowper had suggested. Lord J. RUSSELL had hoped that the way in which the right honourable baronet had introduced his asthma would have secured for it general consent. He would remark that the opposition was a renewal of the opposition that had been offered to every proposal for extending education. When Lord Brougham propounded his scheme every possible objec tion was made to it, and it was alleged that his intention was to rob children of all religious instruction. When he (Lord J. Russell) and the Marquis of Lansdowne proposed a scheme se curing grants from the Committee of Privy Council, strong opposition was offered to it, and they were only enabled to carry it by a majority of two. (Hear.) But he now found an honourable gentleman on the opposite side, who spoke at the beginning of the present debate, acknowledging how good these minutes of council were, and urging that it was the duly of Conservatives not to disturb them, (Hear.) It was the lot of many who made these attempts to advance educa-_ tion to be violently opposed, and to find soon after that the schemes they bad successfully ostabliseecl had become part of the institutions of the country, and all parties urged that it was the duty of Parliament to adhere to what had worke 1 so efficiently, (Hear.) Then again the minutes of 1846 met with very groat apposition throughout the country, and a vast number of petitions wore presented opine them. Tho last change that was made, was made by himself and the right hon. gentleman the member fir the University of Ox ford (Mr. Gladstone) who was then Chancellor of the Exche quer, sanctioning capitation grants. That was opposed, not so much on account of a dislike to the principle as because the scheme was not carried to the extent necessary to pro. mote the cause of edneation. Ho might remark, as the foundation of the motion of the right hon, baronet, that the hon, member for Staffordshire had entirely mistaken the present system. The hon. gentlema', seemed to think that inspectors were persons who inspected the whole education of the country, and that they had only to be gagged to make them report on the sta'o of education all over Euglancl. Now the inspectors could make no such inquiry. What the com mittee of council had to do was, to assist in the erection and afterwards in the maintenance of schools where persons were willing to contribute; but sepposing there were thirty or forty villages lying together where no applieatioa was made, those inspectors must remain in entire ignorance of that part of the country, and could give no detailed report. To this might bo added, that the whole time of the inspectors was employed in visiting the schools they were desired to report upon, and ascertaining what was the amount of education over which they had superintendence. There were about 570,000 children who were re ceiving education in this way. £hey were told by Mr. Horace Mann, in his last roport, that there were only 570,000 out of the two millions to whom his reports refer who were receiving instruction, and, besides these, Mr. Mann re ported that there were one million who were at work, and who did not go to school at all. He made allowance for other chil hen who were out pocket-picking and thieving, and who could not be expected to attend school while thus engaged, (Laughter.) The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Henley) bad said that children would lie and steal, and that they should be taught not to steal, because such practices were contrary to the law of God. He quite agreed with the right non. gen tleman ; but why, if that was to be taught in school, should not other children who were running about the streets and did not go to school—why were they not to he taught the same lesson ? (Hear.) If goutlemen denied that it was of no advantage-to impart a moral and secular instruction, there was an end of the whole case. There were four or five uillions of these - children, and the present system extended to 570,000. It was proposed to assist by grants the means of those who were willing to build schools, but they could hardly find suit& nt means for that purpose. It was hoped that the establishment of these schools would lead by example to the establishment of other schools, and that thus the system would spread. It was very much in the nature of an experi ment, and it was to be seen whether that extension of educa tion took place rapidly and generally, or whether it was a slow process, The system had now been in operation 18 years, and though he must say it had been very successful with regard to those who wore actually under education, it had not spread so rapidly or so extensively as could have been wished. Let him ask hem what was to be done. They were not making any great progress, for if any one would look to the increase of the grants, it would be found that that 70,000 which had been added to the 500,000, received in proportion a far la rger amount of grants than the latter number. He 'could see many ways in which education might be bene ficially extended. He believed that in many cases the clergy and ministers of various dissenting sects would be willing to ask their congregations to contribute to a certain extent, not complying with all the conditions of the Committee of Privy Council, but_ still making better schools than at present existed. Would not that be advantageous ? (Hear, hear.) They were improving the quality of educat'en, but they must not lose si g ht o f th e quantity, and in places were no progress had been made might they not inquire whether by grants they might get extend the present system ? He had heard many men of practical knowledge urge this point, ono of them a bishop, That right reverend prelate pointed out to him there were whole districts in his diocese where there wore no schools of any value whatever, and he bad heard others say, who had great practical experience, that when iu these parishes there were well- conducted schools, the grants of the Committee of. Privy Council were sufficient ; but that they might go for milo around aucl not find a tylcral* fichoQL They could not inquire into th's state of things under the present system ; and was it not worth while then to have an inquiry as to what the state of things really was.- ( He did not pretend to say what that system should be. The right hon. baronet (Si r J. Pakington) had been taunted wi t h e a desire to carr y hi s prev i ous measures into effect, J% could not think thi s was h an d some or liberal towards the right honourable baronet, but he had no doubt that when the right honourable baronet had all the lids before him, and saw the disposition of Parliament, he would not be bound by his original propositions, but would adopt that Course which the general disposition of Parliament might sanction. The honourable member for Staffordshire spoke of middle school education, and said there ought to he an inquiry into that subject, because persons in our middle schools were not receiving so good an education as in the poorer schools. He (Lord John Russell) admitted that that education should be improved, but he did not suppose that grants would be made by Parliament to persons who had the means of educating their children, bet they might be able to send th e i r sons to grammar schools, according to the original int en ti on of the charitaue trusts, and which were capable of great i mprovement. If honourable gentlemen would inquir e i n t o th at subject they would find that it only required a v er y s li ght alteration in the law to enable the commissioners of charitable trusts to effect thin object. He had the pleasure of carrying the Charitable Trusts' Bill through Parliament, and he believed the Charity Com missioners were fully competent for their duties. The Chan- • cellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Baines)was one of them, and if he were entrusted with a bill, having the full confi dence of Parliament, everything could be done that was needed. He kne w the chief commissioner was very tandems to have powers, by means of which great benefits could be conferred. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Henley) had said that in every scheme he (Lord J. Russell) had proposed he had insisted at least on a knowledge of the Bible . being com municated to the children. He thought it would be a very great misfortune if, for the purpose of putting an end to the jarring of different religious sects, any system of secular education were established is which religion should not he made the foundation of all teaching, (Hear.) He could not believe that more moral teaching would be efficacious, and ho did not this k that moral teaching in this country indepent" dent of the Bible would be anything but adverse to the Bible. (Cheers.) He did not think it would be any use to appoint* commiision to inquire into half time or anything of ttie kind, and he hoped the right hon. baronet would not subetit to any such mutilation. As to the expense, he thought it would he very well °rapt yed in the commission, to whose in.veitigs* tions he believed every squire and clergyman in the country would render the fullest assistance. Mr. BRISCOE said he had listened to this debate from the commencement, and he hoped the right hon, baronet would net consent to the amendment proposed, for that would de prive the motion of its entire value. It would certainly roll* der it insufficient for the object the right hon, baronet had in view. He quite agreed with the noble lord the member for the city of London that a secular system of education would never meet the wishes of the people of this country. H e . should not give his v e t o f or th e resolution except is its origin al form, Sir J. PAKINGTON, in reply, said he had- not said one word about compulsion, but tad sought to show that the grants at present made for the purposes of education did not reach the lower portion of the population. Nor was be * ll , advocate of the s ecu l ar system. On the contrary, he did no t think that any system of education would be satisfactory which did not embrace religious teaching. Ho believed that if religious differences could be got rid of, the secular s ystem would speedily fall. Whilst "nen were quarrelling upon points of religion, a vast amount of irreligion was growing up. 10 know that upon this part.cular question he was placed in the difileulty of being at variance with many of those friends wits whom he usually acted, but he could not understand the middle course proposed by the Vice-President of the Bound of Privy Connell. (Hear, herr.) He thought it would bo better to abandon the motion altogether, than to prosecute the in quiry ineffectually. Much remained for inquiry, but after the expression of opinion on the part of the Government, he did not think it would be advis Lble to press his motion. ( 50 no.) But ho suggested to the Vice-President of the Privy Council that perhaps the best course would be to let the re• solution stand thus : That an humble address be pres en ted t• her Majesty, that she would be graciously pleased to issue a commission to inquire into the present state of popular edit' cation in England, and consider and report what measnreee if any, ought to be taken for the spread of sound and cheaP elementary education to all classes of the people. ( )Heat. Mr. CO WPER s a id th at this alteration would meet the views of the Government. The SPEAKER read the original motion and Mr. Itadiloldso amendment. Lord PALMERSTON hoped the latter would, be drawn, and that the house would accept the resolution in Ile altered form. Mr. HENLEY could not accept the altere,tion. Mr. HADFIELD having withdrawn b;.s amendment, the original resolution was withdrawn. The house then divided on the resolution in its alter" form— For the amendment.... Against it . ..... ................ .......... . .. ....... . 11 9 Majority SAVINGS BANK COMMITTEE . Ou the motion of the CHANOELLOR of the E/ C4 CHEQUER, the mere:ours of the sa v i ngs B an k committee were nominated. CHURCH RATES. Sir J. TRELAWNY movei for leave to bring in a bill Al the abolition of church rat es. He understood that ah.s. Government did not object to the introduction of the bus aud would reser ve hi e obseril . o —( hear , until nar hear,the and seco second d e n s! dhi la ugh)_ Leave was , given to bring in the bill. GAOLS AND HORSES OF CORRECTION BILL. On the motion for the second reading of this V ar. Bowyer's) bill, Mr. SPOONER, objected " on the ground that the bill ba d ea only been aeltvered to members that morning. He demurr to the po iver which the bill gave to ministers of all dononain s i tions visitin g pr i soners at all times, and of interfering w it h the existing prison regulations. 3 2r. KINNAIRD urged the postponement of the bill. A Mr. BOWYE R said that the bill had been twice brough t li, 'with the consent of the Government, and the simple - oWe°_, of it was to secure the prisoners the spiritual consolaiion ministers of their own religion. Safeguards were introduce" , for investing the visiting justices with every necessary, re' striction. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that this bill must practically be considered a new bill—(hear, it. hea r : from Air. Spoon er )— and as the Home Secretary was not Pre' sent, he suggested the postpon emen t of this stage o f (Hem., hear.) The debate was adjourned. SIR HENRY AND LADY HAVELOCK'S ANNU ITY The bill was re a d a third ßlLL time and ssed. CHURCH RATES. pa Sir J. TRELAWNY brought up his bill, which was: read • first time ; t o b e read a second time on Wednesday, the 17th• The house adjourned at ono o'clock. PABLIAMBNTA --RY Dins loN ROUSE OF COMMONS.—FEB. 11. ED UCATI ON. Motion made, and question proposed, "That an humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that she Wil l „. / 1 graciously pleased to issued a commission to inquire into " present state of popular education in England, and whe the a the present sy s t em i s, or is not, sufficient for its object ; to consider a n d report what changes, if any, are required for the extension of sound and cheap elementary instruction 9 all classes of the people."A.mendment proposed, at the e l !! of the -- question, to add the words "and particularly whether it is desirable that the course of education should, in deferenc! to the principles of r ligious liberty, be restricted to secula k ,r , instruction; or wh e th er religious instruction should be ad and what c ourse of roligous instruction can be supplied wit . . out violation o f th e rights of conscience of her Majesty's jects ; and that all classes and denominations be entitled t° be heard in this inquiry, "_Question proposed, " That those words be there added, " . _Amendment, and motion, by lezver withdrawn. Motion made and question pu-, ‘‘ That 1 . 6 .0 humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that t, will be graciously pleased to issue a commission to inquire d il l ; the present state of popular education in England ; 1111— „ r consider acid report what measures, it any, are required fo r the extension of sound and ohoap elementary instructio n all classes of th e P eop le." - --The. house divid e d ; Ayes, "" ,a Noes, 49. AYES-110. Adams, W. H. Garnett, William Pinney, Col. .Ad ams, E. Greer, Samna! Pritchard, J. Bagwell:John Gray, Captain Pugh, D. Bali, E Baring, Sir F. Grey, R. P uller, Clu i steP h.r Griffith. C. Raynham, Viseollo Raring, T. G. Hall, Sir Benjamin Rebow, J. Baxter, W. Danbury, Robert Ricardo, 0. Beecroft,o. H an d ley, H. Ridley, George Bleck,Adam Harris, J. D. Roupell, W. 1 ,,, Bramston, T. W Elatchell, John Bushot, Cent G. Briscoe, J. Hayter, W. Russell, Lord J. Buchanan. Walter Heneage, Geo. F. ' Russell, A. Buller. J. W. Hodgson, William Rust, James Buxton, C. Hopwood, John Salisbury, Enoch Byng, G. H. C. Borman, E. Sckolefield, W. Caird, J. Jervolse, Sir J. 881h b ei th le o 3 4.1 141:1 0 j. °r Campbell, R. J. R. Ker, Richard Y. James King, L. Stapleton, John!. Clive, It. King, Edward Syk es, C o l o nel_ __, Close, M. Kluglake , A. Thompson. Ge neral Collier, R. P. Kinnaird, A. Townshand. J. Cowper, W. F. Knatehball-Huguessen Trelawny, Sir J. Cross, R. A. Langton, li. G. Turner, J. A. balglish, R. Lewis, Sir G.C. Vansittart, W. Davey, it. Lope'. Sir M. Villiers, C. Duff, M. M ac ki e, J. . - Vivian. J. Cl, Dunbar, Sir W. Mangles, C. Western, 8. Duncan, Viscount Mclguntl, Lord Whitbread, S. rd wards; Henry Mellor, John Wickham, H. Elton, Sir. A. H. . Mitckell, T. A. Williams, W. Eyabs, T. W. • Morris, D. Willyauns, E. Ewart, W. Paget, Lord C. Wilson, J. . Farquhar, Sir M. Palmerston, Viscount Wingfield, R. Finlay, A. Pease, Henry Worsley, Fitzgerald, J. Pechell, Sir G. Wyld, J Lord James Forster, Charles Peel, Sir R. TELLsas, Forteseue, HOIL F. Pevensey, Viseount P a ki ngto n , Si r J. Fox. W. J. Philips, R. Stanley, Lord NOES-49. Adderiey, C. B. Fordo, Colonel Nicoll, D. Ayr ton, A. (lard. It. North, Col, J. Bennet, Capt. P. H av iti e ld . George Packs, C. Bentinck, G. Dope, Alexander Philipps, J. Blakemore, T. Hallam, Lord Pilkington, J. Bowyer. G. Kendall, N. Price, W. Bridges, Sir B. • Kershaw, J. Replan, G. Calcraft, J. Knight, F. Richardson. I. Charlesworth, J. C.D. Langton, W. G. Selater, George Child, Smith Laslett, W. Scott, Captain Churchill, Lord A. Liddell, H. G. Spooner, R. ~,. Collins, T. Locke, J. Wigram. Loftus z Cox, W. Lygon, Hon.F. Woodd, B. Crook,:.T. M'Cann. J. Dillwyn, L. L. Maguire, J. F. Dobbs, W. C. Miller, Stearn. Emlyn, Viscount Mowbray, J. It. Fenwick, 11, Napier, J TILLIZO. Henley, J. Hardy, G. BIRTHS. IlEss—On the 9th inst., the wife of Henry Hest, Beq.l 35. Bedford-street south, Liverpool, of twin sons/ „,.„. HEYGATE—On the 9th iust , at Bullarena, county Lont:- lorry, the w if e o f Si r F re d er i ck W i lliam Heygate, " of a daughter. MARRIAGES. PA CILR — BRucE—On the 10th inst., at Hallo* C_ llll ,, r°b ne i Worcestershire, th e R ev . H enr y Y ore, son of L'u."-11- Pack°, Twyford Hall, Norfolk, to Helen Sarah, delg r . ter of Stewart C. Brace, Esq., of Hallow Cottgo, dl ° center, and Banagher, co. Londonderry. DEATH S. DRAKE—On the Bth inst., at the Rectory, Moncton, shire, the Rev. John Drake, aged 77. DAWE—On the 6th inst.; at 32, Clc nclealy-terrase, lo ii g ton. Mr. W. N. Dawe, of the "Shipping and Mer c3-- Gazette," aged 33. • F.A.L3NER. —On the 7th inst., at Brighton, sir Marie Fullmer, Bart , Captain XX. LONDON; Printed a n d P u b l i shed by MURDO YOUlfso. of No, 112, Strand, Printer, at 774 . 8 14 * tY 112, Strand, i n th e P reo i not of the 30 : 07. ilk of Middlesex, Friday, February 12. 1858'