The Sun. — London, England, 1858-06-12 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EV ENING, JUNE 1 - 2, 1858. tation of our shores. (Hear.) The bon. and gallant ad spiral has alluded to some observations which I made on I the probability of war, under certain circumstances', with France ; but, without reviving any controversy on those expressions, I may remind the house that that was an opinion given upon the assumption that there were sufficient, or at least important, causes at work, and had been long at work, that might have produced so lament able and disastrous a result. At the present moment, however, so far as France is concerned, we are not only in frequent but constant communication, and if it were the wish or supposed interest of France to pick a quarrel with England, many opportunities might easily be obtained, when we are combining together to regulate the affairs of Europe under difficult circum stances, by which such an unfortunate state of affairs might be brought about. I am bound to say, in answer to this question of the hon. and gallant gentleman, that he really has made no statement to the house by which he can substantiate his assertion that vast warlike pre parations are being made by France at this moment by sea and land. He has laid no foundation to induce the house to believe that there is a state of affairs existing at this moment with respect to our relations with that Power under this particular head of armament different from that which he admits existed a considerable time since. No information has reached her Majesty's Go vernment that there are being made at this moment those extraordinary preparations by sea and land of which he has spoken. (Hear.) I need not reassure the house that at the present moment the relations between the two countries are of a cordial and confidential nature—(bear) —and that at this moment we are acting with the prin cipal Powers of Europe, and especially with France, in the management and regulation of most delicate and im portant interests, under circumstances which certainly would seem to indicate that the object, and such I hope will be the result, of all our labours is the maintenance of the peace of Europe, and not its outrageous disturb ance, as the hon. and gallant admiral has anticipated. But, though the gallant admiral has limited his questions to inquiries as to some parts of Europe, he has travelled across the Atlantic and reminded us that troubles are preparing for us in America. Unquestionably the house ie now familiar with the circumstances. It is possible that,. from the excited state of feeling that prevails in the Uuited States upon a particular subject, embarrassing and even mischievous results might occur in the interval that would elapse before communications from this coun try had reached the Government of America. But these are accidents which no policy can possibly guard against ; and, remembering the natural sympathy that exists between the citizens of the United States and the subjects of her Majesty, and that between the existing Government of the United States and her Majesty's Government upon all the great principles of policy which should regulate their relations there is a complete accordance, I will not anticipate that those em barrassing and mischievous accidents would occur. I will hope that, these unfortunate accidents not taking place, there would be that which I am convinced will be the result, a complete understanding between the two Governments upon those circumstances which have cer tainly fora moment placed our relations in considerable (Jaeger. But, speaking generally upon the subject, what I venture to impress upon the house is that it is not the policy or the interest of England always to give credit to foreign Governments for the worst intentions. (Loud cheers.) I must repress my opinion that a policy—vigi lant I grant it should be, and vigilant I, on the part of her Majesty's Government, pledge myself to the gallant admiral it shall be—(cheers)—and firm, but at the same tiiae conciliatory, just, adapted to settle all those ques tions of controversy that may arise between the different nations and Governments, is more likely to adjust hap pily those differences than a policy of suspicion, which is always ready to show to foreign nations that you do not give them credit for those feelings upon which civilisa tion depends. (Cheers.) Now, we have had withiu the last few hours a very significant proof, I think, of the justice of my observations. Within these few hours we have received a despatch which shows that a state of affairs in one part of the world which caused us, I hesi tate not to say, great disquietude, and which I even admit did seem to endanger the peaceful relations of Eu ropean States, has been happily terminated. (Hear.) We have within these few hours received a despatch from Naples, informing us that his Majesty the King of Naples has granted and is prepared immediately to pay adequate and I may say ample compensation to the English engi- neers—(loud and repeated cheers)—and, more than that, that the King of Naples has placed the Sardinian ship Cagliari and the whole of its crew at the disposal of the Queen of England. (Loud cheers.) Mr. Lyons adds that on the next day the Neapolitan officers were to call upon him to receive his instructions as to the delivery of the Cagliari, and that he awaits the instructions of my noble friend the Secretary of State fer Foreign Affairs. In those instructions, which before the house met were despatched to Naples, Mr. Lyons has been instructed to deliver the Cagliari and its crew to the command of its late captain, and the general super intendence of Mr. Barber, the consul, who throughout this affair has conducted himself with so much spirit and ability. (Cheers.) The Cagliari, under the command of the same Sardinian captain, manned with the same Sar dinian crew, and under the general authority of Mr. Barber, will sail to Genoa, and there Mr. Barber will deliver the Cagliari and its crew to the authorities of the King of Sardinia. (Loud cheers.) Now, but a very short time ago these were circumstances that caused, and justly, the greatest anxiety in the public mind—(hear); and if we had pursued another course, which at the mo ment might have obtained considerable approbation, we might have brought about results of a very different cha• ratter, and have thrown Europe into confusion. Acting, however, with firmness, but at the same time with con ciliation and in a spirit of justice, we have obtained this most satisfactory conclusion of these troublesome affairs and a new guarantee for the maintenance of the peace Of Europe. (Oheers.) If there were those evil disposi tions which are attributed with so much facility to fo reign States, do not you think that they would have seized this opportunity of throwing the greatest difficul ties in the way of the peaceful solution of this question ? (Cheers.) But on the contrary, we have had, through out, the sympathies of this very Power to whom theze evil dispositions are imputed. We have had the sympa• thies of France, and have been able to bring to this most satisfactary termination these difficult, and at one time distressing, circumstances. Well, animated by seeing the result of a policy such as I have described, I cannot con cur in the views which the gallant admiral has attempted to enforce upon the house. This I will say—that, what ever may be the state of our alliances, the state of the de fences of this country ought to be complete. (Cheers.) C nsiderin our insular position, and the great wealth of this country, we ought, totally independent of all diplo matic circumstances—totally irrespective of what may be the results of a skilful and adroit policy—we ought, abstractedly speaking, if I may use the expression, to lay down as a first condition that England should be adequately and completely defended. (Cheers.) Bat what is adequate for the complete defence of the country must be left to those who have the difficulty and responsibi lity of the direction of affairs. If we are wanting, if events prove hat we are wanting, in thoughtful vigi lance or preparation upon this most important subject, the consequence to us must be of the most awkward do • scription. But I would ask the home to give us credit for attempting, and I hope not unsuccessfully, to do our duty in this important respect, and let the house believe that the state of our ethane. s with the great Powers of • Europe, although not free from difficulty and anxiety, for that they never can be, is a state very encouraging to the cause of peace. (Hear, hear.) Were they, how ever, of a very different character, the state of this coun try is such that we may confidently hope, under any cir cumstances, to be able to defend our shores and vindi cate our honour. (Loud cheers.) Mr. BENTINCK thought that the right hon. gentle man had somewhat misapprehended the object of the question of the hon. and gallant admiral. The right hon. gentleman had told the house that he was not aware of any extensive preparations being made abroad. Dlr. Disraeli—" I said extraordinary, not extensive."] Very well, extraordinary preparations, and he also added that the relations between this country and foreign Powers were of the most cordial description. Now, they had been informed a short time ego by the right hon. gen tleman at the head of the Admiralty that, during a very considerable portion of the tenure Qf office of the late Government, the coasts of the country were totally without defence. That statement, made a very short time back, had received no contra. diction from the late First Lord of the Admiralty, and there-fore he was justified in assuming that such was the case when the pre-ent Government t .ok office. He was not going to raise the question as to what were exten sive or extraordinary preparations in neighbouring coun triee butsthis he mould say, that these pi epar tions had been carried on for some time until this country had be come weak in relation - to other ccuetries. What the hen. and gallant admiral wished to know, and he con curred with him in feeling anxiety for the information which be sought, was whether in case of any unforeseen emergency we should be able to defend the coasts of this country. He did not impugn the zeal or ability of the light bon. gentleman or his colleagues, but at the same time he thought that house and the country had a right to know upon what they depended for the defence of the country. He did not anticipate a French in va:ion— (hear) —but it was a disgraceful position for a country which called itself the mistress of the seas to be actually in doubt whether or no she was able to defend her own shores The gallant admiral had not anticipated an Invasion, f it he relied upon the good faith—and he quite concurred in that opinion—of the Emperor of the French, which pert aps, joined to his moderation, had prevented a col lision at a time when circumstances into which he should not enter bad created strong feelings of irritation in the two countiies. It might, however, happen that circum stances might arise when that distinguished man would pot have events within his own co n trol ; and it was a mo s t fair and proper question, and one to which the country had a ri g htaskthe to expect an answer, to Go vernment w andwhe,thrhawtewwere the actual defences of the country, stances, te defend position, under any circuni eoredei.:disnhuaores ? (Bear.) Mr. L l NDAeele „i on , but merely to state th at, rise to enter into a discus ao'.fhtlfor one bad be-n much pleased with the statement ha- s-own th at lie w e a Cliancellor of the Ex , chequer, who h t s h p e repared for de ft Lee I against any invasion, and that, at not wish to ental UE flee' sPary !rtme time, ho did expenditur e on the fund , ' Of the coul,try. Its rsgarded the navy, t i,„„, W that there were aimed:ince of ships, Lill twat'thereedtictilli citify was in mann in g there, but in cave of invasion sea-- men from the merchant service would be ready to loan • '0 for their hearths and homes (Rear.) In ships and fi,ns• _ see. ) invasion was a In his o en opinion a French inraq nacre isle and it would be most desirable, if it co u nt be dream, done instead of England bui ldin g more ships b ec aus e . ei hewas afraid of France, or Fra nce building more ship s 'from fear of England, to come to a mutual arrangement, in there was no other maritime power of which either of them could be afraid, to limit their naval forces to an no count agreed upon by both. Mr. BRIGHT said—The hon. gentleman below me who introduced this matter has put a question to the Government, and the hen. member for Norfolk has put 1 a question to everybody in this house. Now, I shall just put one question to them, and I should be glad some evening to receive a distinct answer to it. I want know the precise expenditure or of force by land or sea which is required in order to say that this country is completely defended. (Hear.) It appear to me that gentlemen who, from their profession should be the last to take alarm are continually driving these I terrors into the ears of peaceable non-military persons like myself. (A laugh.) Only a few years ago a sound of alarm of a French invasion had been raised, and others kept succeeding it like the claps of a thunderstorm in summer. Does the hon. member opposite recollect that, not including the ex pense of armaments, a much larger sum has been voted during the present year for the national defences than, I believe, ever has been spent in time of peace ? We spend twice as much now as we did 20 years ago, al though, as far as any application of that expenditure goes, we have not a single foot of territory more to defend than we had then. I should like to know to what all this tends, and to what length we are to go ; because, if ever the unhappy day should arrive in my lifetime, when, instead of spending 22,000,000/. on defensive armaments, we shall be spending 44,000,0001., I undertake to prove, by the same arguments as have been used by the two gentlemen who have just addressed the house, that this country is in a state of almost absolute want of defence. I would undertake, with the map of England in my hand, to indicate at least 100 points on which an enemy might land ; I could also show that France was inha• bited by a large population accustomed to war ; I could talk about their avenging Waterloo, and all the other stock stories which are regularly trotted out on occasions of this nature, and I could establish then, as clearly as can be established now, that we were run ning the greatest possible risk, and that the nation was slumbering while it was on the edge of a most fearful precipice. I know a certain old lady of 80 years of age (a laugh), whom some people have been trying to frighten within the last few days. A most plausible circular, written by some professor—of what he is a professor I can't say—was put by some simpleton before the some• what dimmed eyes of this old lady; but she says, " I am not at all alarmed, for I have lived in the world 80 years, and as long a I can recollect there has always been a story afloat that there was going to be a French invasion." (Laughter.) I dare ray hon. gentlemen have read Horace Walpole's letters, in one of which— I forget exactly its date, for my memory does not , erve rue as to dates—an anecdote is told of there having once been a great alarm about an invasion ; and it is said there was found to be nothing in it,—that it was used, as apothecaries say of something of which they give very nauseous doses, as a " vehicle," the object of those who compound it being to make the patient "swallow the Hessians," (Laughter.) The case is just the same now. There is an uneasiness in the country relative to taxation. I had a letter this morning—which I am very sorry I did not bring here with me—from a small master cutler, probably a constituent of the hon. and learned member for Sheffield. This man has a large number of children, whom he has a hard struggle to support ; his trade is bad ; and he says, " For Heaven's sake let us try if possible to have a different foreign policy, smaller armaments, fewer quarrels, lighter taxes, and a better cLance for an industrious man to maintain himself and his family. (Hear, hear.) I am asked by persons in this hense, and some people out of doors— who do not look very deeply into these matters, put the same question to me—why do you show something like favour to a Conservative Government, and why were you accessory to putting the gentlemen now in opposi tion on their, present benches ? If I wanted an answer to this it would be found in the speech which the Chan cellor of the Exchequer has made to us to-night. (Cheers.) These are not questions of aristocracy and democracy, they are not questions of Conservatism and Radicalism ; they are questions of the obvious interests of our coun try and of humanity at large. And I say a Government that would adopt a foreign policy based on moderation and justice is one that I should be disposed to see on the Treasury bench, in preference to any other Govern ment which pretended to a great exhibition of English power in all parts of the world, The right hon. gentle man has described what has been done with respect to Naples. All the difficulty with respect to Naples arose from the unseemly conduct pursued towards that country a year and a-half ago by the English Government. It is now at an end. The moderate and conciliatory policy of England has been met by an equal moderation on the part of the Neapolitan Government ; and that squabble is now buried we hope for ever. We have another thing at present on han-l—this American question, which I presume is owing to the sending out of gunboats and ships to the Cuban or West Indian station during the last year, and also, I suppose, to the instructions issued by the late Government, under which our commanders in those waters, acting with what is called more vigour, have done that which the United States' nation would not stand any more than I am sure the English would do under the like circumstances. (Hear.) Then we have another matter in the China question, to which I would ask the attention particularly of the hon. member who introduced this subject. If you are to have 70 or, as I think the right honourable gentleman said, 60 ,hips of war in the Eastern seas, carrying on a quarrel 1 which you don't understand, and engaged in a com plication which you might have avoided,—if your are to have all this great armament stationed at a distance of 10,000 or 15,000 miles from you,—l ask what amount !' of revenue or of taxation which can possibly be rai-ed will ever give you what you suppose you require— namely, large fleets to defend your coasts at home ? Now, the course which the Government have taken in this matter is a truly Conservative course. There ieno true Conservatism which is not based on a true morality. And whether at home or abroad, I believe it is possible for a Government, without bravado and with out boasting, to confer solid benefit on the country, and, whatever may have been its past profession of politics, to gain a substantial support from the people. I did not intend to Lake more than one observation when I rose ; but I have heard the statement of the right hon. gentleman with extreme pleasure. I believe it will give equal satisfaction throughout the country. (Cheers.) I only hope the house and the nation will sustain the present Government in every effort they may make to restore our foreign relations to a state of tranquility and safety, so that we may be able to turn our attention to that from which we have been diverted for the last five years—namely, the process of reducing our expenditure in order, if possible, to render England a country which all Englishmen shall prefer, rather than one from which they have incessant inducements to emigrate to every other part of the globe. (Cheers.) Sir C. WOOD—I so entirely agree in what has been said as to the inconvenience of raising general discus sions on foreign policy upon the formal motion for adjournment till Monday, that I shall confine my attention to the conduot of the late Govern ment, especially in the department with which I was connected, which has been so much impugned by the hon. members for Norfolk and for Birmingham. The former hon. gentleman said that we left the country in a most defenceless state, and that it was necessary for our successors to make strenuous exertions in order to replace the armaments of the country on something like a proper footing. I appeal to the most unexception able testimony as to the utter erroneousness of this representation. The noble eari at the head of the pre sent Government himself admitted in another place that he had been both surprised and gratified, at the period of his accession to office, to learn that the impression which had previously prevailed in regard to the national defences was entirely unfounded, and that he had found the country both by land and sea in a complete state of 1 defence. (Hear, hear.) Well, what has been the con duct of the present Government since then ? They very properly took time to consider the estimates which we had prepared, but which had not been actually voted when they came into power, and the First Lord of the Admiralty took votes on account several weeks before he definitively brought forward the navy estimates, And did the course which, after duo reflection, the right hon. gentleman pursued indicate any belief on his part that the country was inefficiently de fended 1 Why, he did not deem it necessary to re commend the addition of a single man to the nu.n her proposed by his predecessors—(hear, hear)—aud t as to the votes for the dockyards and the building of ships, he actually reduced the estimates which we hail prepared. I said at the time that I thought the reduc tion injudicious, and I shall retain that opinion. Yet the hon. member for Norfolk talks Of the Herculean labour which we imposed on our successors. Mr. BENTINCK explained that he had spoken of the efforts that were necessary to place the defences of the country in a positisn to meet an emergency when the late Government left office. Sir C. WOOD It is clear that the present Govern ment theyieved t t h h e ou n g at h i t on p a r l op defences d tuocebeo our a m seanfte musth condition, ave f or estimates. But I pass on to the assertion of the hon. member for Birmingham, that whatever complications might exist in America arose from the instructions sent out by the late Government to the officers of the West Indian station. Now, it is perfectly true that I sent out additional gunboats to be employed in checking the slave trade, which was raising its head again in those waters ; but I can inform the hon. gentleman of what he evidently cannot know—via., that no new instructions whatever have been issued to our commanders in the West Indies, and that those officers are still acting on the instructions which were drawn up in the year 1844, with a studious desire to avoid giving just cause of offence, ands which were signed, I believe, by Sir G. Cockburn. What I have said has been rather in the way of caution ; but this a point on which some misappre hension has prevailed in the minds of hon. members, and I am glad to have had this opportunity of stating that nothing whatever was done by the Government with which I was connected which could lead the officers in command of vessels engaged in checking the sl a ve t r ade to do anything which ' they would not Fare done any time during the last 15 years. ([Tear, hear.) 1 Mr. lIEADLAM did not rise to answer the very diffi cult question proposed by the hon. member for Thrilling barn as to the cost at which the expense of the defence of this country could be defrayed. Having regard to the existing state of Europe and to the demands necce - eerily made upon the forces of this country, he did not think that they were at this moment greater than was abs Mutely needed. Having early in the session taken an active part in ceiling the attention of her Majest3 a Government to the case of the British engineers le Naples, and having urged upon them further steps than, they then seemed disposed to adopt, he should not act rightly towards them if, upon the announcement of th- result of their negotiations, ho did not tender to them hie con g r atulations upon their success, and his great satis f on at th e f avourable issue of their exertions. (Hear, ) With respect to the question of our decencess he was not a n a l armist. Re entertained no fears ' of an ' in how different the event s of same time, vasion from France , bu t remembering the last 10 years had been from any which could have been anticipated, he thought that we could not with confidence upon any predictions as to what might occur in the future. (Hear, hear.) He desired peace as ardently a .9 the hon. member for Bir mingham himself ; but he was convinced that the true mode of securing tranquillity was for our Government on all occasions to use firm and dignified language, and that they could not do unless they felt that our defences wer I adequate to the magnitude of the interests which had to be protected, and to the importance of this country in the world. Having heard with great satisfaction the statement of the right hon. gentleman as to the termina tion of negociations at Naples, and many of the difficul ties in that matter having arisen from the suspension of our diplomatic relations with that country, he should be glad to bear that the whole affair was at an end, and that those relations had been resumed. (Hear, hear.) Colonel FRENCH asked the right hon. gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty when the commission upon manning the navy would be issued. The names of the members had for some time been known at the clubs. It was said the commission was to consist of Lord Hard wicke, Admiral Martin, Lord Chandos, Mr. Lindsay, Mr. Cardwell, Mr. Green, and Captain Shepherd. He hoped that the usual course would . be followed, and that his hon, and gallant friend (Sir C. Napier), who moved for the appointment of the commission, would also be placed upon it. Sir J. PAKINGTON—The hon and gallant admiral who commenced this discussion complained that although three weeks have elapsed since he moved the appointment of a royal commission to inquire into the manning of the navy, it has not yet been issued. The commission is now ready, the list of members is complete, and if there is any further delay, it will only be such as is required in order to comply with the various forms which must be gone through before the commission can be made public With regard to the statement that the names have been currently talked of in the clubs, I can only say that such ought not to have bean the case. I have never communi cated the names of those who were likely to serve on this commission, except in confidence, and only in cases in which such communication was unavoidable. How it was that the names became known I cannot tell, but I have no hesitation in saying that they ought not to have been known. I have not authorised their publication, and I will repeat what I said when a similar statement was made by an hon. and gallant officer behind me (Admiral Duncombe, that at the time he made:that statement one of the names had not been officially settled. Consider ing the difficel - y which every hon. gentleman must know attends the formation of a Royal commission, the anxiety the Government must feel to appoint the most competent persons, the frequency with which it happens that those who are applied to are unable to serve, and the fact that in this case the Whitsuntide holidays immediately followed the adoption of the reso lution for the issuing of the commission, I hope that the house will feel that the lapse of three weeks has not been an unreasonable delay. (Hear, hear) I will now say a few words in consequence of the extent to which the hon. and gallant admiral opposite (Sir C. Napier) and my hon. friend the member fur Norfolk (Mr. Bentinck) have in the course of this discussion referred to the state of the naval defences of this country. After what has been said by my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in every word of which I most heartily con cur, I shall say but a very few words. My hon. friend the member for Norfolk, referred to what fell from me two or three months ago in moving the navy estimates. I then stated my opinion, which I am now fully prepared to repeat, that it was not becoming the dignity 'of this country, it was not consistent with its safety or security, that our coasts should be left so destitute of naval de fence as they had been daring the winter months in con• sequence of the detention of so large an amount of our forces in China and India. (Hear.) I entertain these feel ings now as strongly as I did then ; but, in expressing them, I do not thereby intimate the slightest doubt of the loyalty and good faith of our ally the Emperor of the French, or intend to convey either to this house or to the public that I sympathise with the alarms of which I have heard with great regret. (Hear.) If any such feel ings prevail in the public mind, it is undoubtedly natural, and perhaps right, that they should find utterance in this house ; but at the same time I feel, and I hope the house will feel, that we cannot too strongly depre cate either speeches in this house or articles in news papers which tend to excite alarm in the public mind when there is no just ground for such a feeling. (Cheers.) I think hon. members will agree with me that the only result of such speeches and such articles will be to create two great dangers and evils—panic and alarm—in the public mind in this city, and too probably irritation in the mind of our allies the French, whom it is our desire and our policy to conciliate in every honour able way. (Hear.) Consistently with these feelings, and consistently with the opinion I have a!ready ex pressed that it is not becoming the dignity of England that we should be without naval defences on our shores, I can state that the present Government have from their accession to office exerted themselves to the ut most to make those defences effective, not from any alarm, not from any doubt of the loyalty of our allies, but from a feeling that this country ought under all cir cumstances to be prepared for any emergency which may arise, I am happy to say that the hon. and gallant admiral in the course of his speech underrated—uninten tionally, I am sure—the naval power of this country ; and I am bound to state that!at this time we could at the shortest notice assemble in the Channel a fleet which would I be lie%e, be able to cope with any that any other Power of Europe could send out, (Hear.) I feel it my duty to make that statement, hoping that I shall not be understood to imply any alarm, but the reverse: The house has heard from my right hon. friend how satisfactory is the present state of our foreign rel es tions ; .and, in conclusion, I desire to say that while on the one hand, the Government feel it to be their imperative duty to take care that the naval defences of this country shall be satisfactory, and shall be worthy of its dignity and power, on the other we are no less desirous of adopting with regard to all foreign Powers a policy so conciliatory as to make any resort to those defences quite unnecessary. (Hear.) THE ARREST OF CAPTAIN JUDKINS—THE CONSUL GENERAL OF BELGRADE—COM• PENSATION TO THE ENGLISH ENGINEERS. Mr. HORSFALL, in calling the attention of the house to the arrest of Captain Judkins, of the Rayal mail steamer Persia, in New York, on the 16th of May last, said that though Captain Judkins had been libe rated on bail, he was bound to go back to America in order to stand his trial. Captain Judkins in obeying the sanitary laws of New York—a case of smallpox having occurred on board his ship —refused to permit an American custom-house officer to go on shore, and for this he was arrested. The peculiarity of his case was this, that while obeying the law of the state of N ew York he violated the law of the United States ; but it was extremely hard upon Captain Judkins that he should be made to suffer from this conflict of the Ame rican laws. The Mayor of New York said that if Cap tain Judkins bad acted other wise than he had he would have subjected himself to punishment by fine and im prisonment. He hoped that her Majesty's Government would use their friendly interference to have this un just proceeding against Captain Judkins quashed, and what was of still more importance, to prevent a recur rence of any similar proceeding. (Hear.) Viscount BURY, referring to the telegraphic despatch which stated that an attack had been made on the British Consul-General of Belgrade on the 7th of June, asked whether the Government bad received any informa ion on the subject ? _ _ Mr. RIDLEY asked how much had been granted by way of compensation to the two English engineers, and whether the King of Naples had granted the compensa. Lion of his own mere motion, without the concession of any third party ? Mr. S. FITZGERALD said that the Government bad no knowledge of the circumstances connected with the case of Capt. Judkins, but from the statement of the li ,n. gentleman there could be no deubt th a t h e was placed in an unfair position. His case would rece i ve the anxious attention of the Government, and every repre sentation, such as his hon. friend desired, would be made, and he had the fullest confidence, from the administra tion of the law and ihe sense of justice prevailing in the United States, that Captain Judkins would receive en tire satisfaction. (Gear, hear.) With regard to the attack on the British Consul at Belgrade, her Majesty's Government had received a similar telegraphic message to that referred to by the noble lord, and immediately on receipt of that message latr Majesty's Government sent a telegraphic message to Mr Colquhouu, the British consul at Bucharest, to proceed to Belgrade to inquire into the circumstance, and to take such stops as might be necessary. (Cheers.) With regard to the third ques tion, he could not say—because he possessed no know ledge of it—whether any communication had pais between any other powers and the court of Naples*. He could only say that the redress afforded wa s i n answer to a categorical demand made by the Forei g n oce, and sent by office, a messenger, who was directed to wait ten days for a reply, and to return at once if no satisfactory reply was given. (Hear, bear.) A satisfactory reply was given, and the sum paid as compensation to the engi neers was 3,0001. (Loud cheers.) THE INDIAN DOCUMENTS. Sir E. PERRY hoped th t he noble lord (Lord;Stanley) would reconsider his decision with respect to the Indian despatches, and that he would publish those ho had re ceived without waiting for their arriv:l iu an official form. that the word " more" be inserted before the words " than twelve." Lord J. RUSSELL, after referring to the last discus sion relative to the number of the council, moved that the council should consist of not leas than twelve mem bers, and said it was necessary, before the committee agreed to the number, they should first consider the nature and duties of the council they were about to form. The committee had decided there should be a council presided over either by a Secretary of State or the President of the Board of Control, and various questions arose as to the constitution of the council. It was necessary they should in the first place form a clear notion for what purpose they proposed the council. (Hear, hear.) He considered it should be a council con sisting of persons of high character, and it was a ques tion with many whether the council should be composed of a half or a greater portion of persona of Indian ex perience. There were many persons who had served in India, who had ruled over millions, and whose decrees were decisive, it would be desirable to have in th's coun cil, but they were averse to accepting subordinate situa tions, or such as they thought derogatory for them to accept—such as Mouutstuart Elphinstone and Metcalfe. They must take care, both with regard to the position, salary, and tenure of those offices, they should be such as men of high distinction would be willing to accept. With regard to the number of the council, it was desir able they should not have a larger number than they would require for the due transaction of the business. Her Majesty's Government having intimated that the number should not be less than twelve, he thought that with regard to the division of businees into four com mittees, three to each committee, that the business might be carefully and deliberately conducted—viz., one committee for finance, one for the army and navy, one for the internal government of India, compromising the administration of justice, and one for foreign affairs; but in order to enable such men as he had named to transact the business, it would be necessary to provide each committee with an able secretary, which would be upon the principle of transacting the business of the Colonial-office—viz., each department was under the direction of an able man. All the members of the coun cil should bold a State dignity, such, for instance, as privy councillors; and he thought they ought not to pre clude the members of the council from having seats in that house—(hear)—any more than the members of the pre sent Court of Directors. (Hoar.) The salary proposed by her Majesty's Government for the members of the coun cil wa' 1,0001. each, and as some persons possessed, probably, au absurd feeling that the importance of an office was measured by the amount of salary, he sug gested that the amount should be 1,5001., a-year. And, as her Majesty's Government had intended eighteen councillors at 1,0001. a-year, if the committee agreed to twelve with a salary of 1,5001. it would increase the salaries without any increase of contemplated expeuee. The secret committee, established in 1793, ought not to be continued. The members of the council ought to possess the confidence of that house and of the country, and they should be entrusted with the whole knowledge of the affairs of India. All despatches ought to be laid before them, and the Secretary of State should be bound by them—(hear, hear) —the responsibility of final de cision resting with him. (Hear.) In fitting out our armaments the expense should first fall upon this coun try, but finally upon the territories and people of India. (Hear, hear.) With regard to patronage, in order to get rid of any suspicion that the members of the council gave the preference to their relatives and friends over persons of greater merit, and to prevent its accumulation in the hands of the Secretary of State, he thought it would be desirable to throw the appointments open to free elm petition. (Hear, hear.) The military and civil services of India were mist distinguished services, and the promp titude, intelligence, and courage exhibited by the officers of the Indian service on the breaking out of the mutiny, under circumstances unexpected, showed that no danger however appalling, deprived them of the power of com manding and directing their thoughts and energies to what required to be done on so great an emergency. (Cheers.) Another great subject that must come under the consideration of the committee was the administra tion of justice in India. (Hear, hear.) These were matters which would require, when the committee was appoiute 3, full consideration. He thought it would be unwise during the present year to attempt an➢ great measure of legislation ; but he was anxious that a step should be taken for transferring the government of India to the Crown this session, in order that at the next meeting of parliament the attention of the Govern ment might be directed seriously to the consideration of ell "questions affecting the interests of the people. (Hear, hear.) He concluded by moving that the members of the council should not exceed twelve. Sir J. GRAHAM thought it desirable that the noble lord should state in what manner it was proposed to nominate the members of the council, and what was their length of the proposed tenure. Lord J. RUSSELL said that he would suggest that the nomination should for the most part rest with the Crown. If the nomination were put in the bill he would not object to such a course, reserving to himself the right of objecting to any name that might be proposed. Ili, thought that the best tenure of office would be good behaviour, and he thought that was real)/ the best tenure that could be adopted with respect to the members of the council. If it was the opinion of the committee that there should be a term of years, he thought it ought not to be leas than ten years, Mr. ELLICE wished to know whether the noL•le lord proposed that all the appointments in India should be made abAo'utrly by the Crown; Lord JOIIN - RifSSELL said that he would suggest thAt the office of governor-general and the heads of the three presidencies should be absolutely appointed by the Crown. Lord STANLEY said that to make the question before the committee intelligible, he would move to insert the words, " not more than 15." The noble lord had raised a groat number of questions, but, however desirable it might be to ascertain the opinions of members on these points, he must remind the house of the inconvenient position in which they would be by discussing all those pOints when they would have to vote simply as to the number of the council. The entire matter would have to be debated over again when they came to consider the resolution regulating the constitution and duties of the council, at the same time be admitted it was not easy to decide what the number ought to be without some consideration as to the nature of their duties. He agreed with the noble lord that the council should consist of men of high character and position, and of experience in India, and that men of that class would not join in a body in which they would be placed in a position inferior to men who have not filled such great and important offices. As to the number of committees, and the secretary to each, these were matters of mere departmental detail, which the house could not decide, but must be determined by those closely and intimately acquainted with the working of the department. The noble lord seemed to think that in future years the business would be transacted more in India, and less every year sent home. That was a difficult question; and, from his limited practical experience, he would not venture to decide, but he was not very sanguine as to a reduction of business. To have an effective supervision in important matters, they should have the habit of supervi sion, and to keep up the habit it would be necessary to ex tend it over a variety of matters of mere detail. Any one who was acquainted with the business of a department — even one far less extensive and important than that of the Indian Government—must be aware that any change in the business of that department was always a matter of some difficulty and some inconvenience; and to effect a sudden change was incompatible with the due performance of public duties. He thought, therefore. that however some of them might look forward to a reduction in the amount of business to be performed in the Indian depart meat in future years, they had no right to speculate upon that ; but if, 10 or 15 years hence, it was found that in consequence of the new arrangements the amount of busi ness was less than it had been, Parliament would no doubt diminish the number of the council in proportion to the diminution in the amount of work to be done. As re garded the question raised by the noble lord, whether the members of the council ought to have the title of privy councillors, he thought it was rather a suggestion thrown out by him than a question on which ho expected the committee to express an opinion. He was not at all averse to entertain a proposition of that nature. He felt very strongly that it they were to have an Indian coun cil—and the house had affirmed, and he thought wisely, that a council was necessary—it was very important that no means should be left unemployed to give the-members of this council a position of dignity in the eyes of the coun try. With regard to the much wider question, whether the members of this council might sit in Parliament, he thought that. was a question on which there might very fairgrounds of argument either way. He knew it might be contended that, both for the sake of that houseand for the sake of the body which it w as p ro p ose d t o cons tit u t e , they ought no t to exclu lo tho se w h ose am biti on wou ld l oa d them to desire a seat both i n th a t h ouse an d i n th e counc il ; but, on the whole, r eco ll ec ti ng w h a t th e no bl e l or d h a d said—and in that he quite agreed—that the functions of the proposed council were to be, as regarded the departmental a ffairs of India, the functions of a cabinet; considering that the noble lord proposed —and !there also he agreed with hi m—that should b e no exc l us i ve secret committee, b u t that all the members of th e council should hav e a right to be inf ormed of all th a t passe d w ith regar d t o I n di an affairs, this seemed to him to furnish a very valid argument against the admis sion of these gentlemen to seats in that house. Although he was quite ready to a Imit that no mere party quarrel would or ought to lead to a want of harmony between the minister for India and his council, still they must bear in mind that that was not only an English question, but that questions of Indian policy would be very frequently dis• cussed in that house, and he did not see how a confidential council was to work if, when such questions came to be discussed, the minister, acting on his own responsibility, contended for the view which he might conscientiously take, and those who were infoimed of all that was being done, and who were at the same time his secret and con scientious advisors, with the advantage of the knowledge which they possessed, took a course directly the oppcsite of that minister. (Hear.) It seemed to him that, considering the duties which it was intended for to impose upon alO council, a m an of delicate feelings, hiving weighed the responsibilities of birth positions, would not desire to act as a member of that house, because either his official position must compel him to con ceel his convictions with regard to questions of Indian policy which might bo discussed, or else his faithful per formance of l'crltam , ntary duties with regard to matters of Indian policy would make him a very ii?coh regard nvenient co the l league of the Alluister. (Hoar, hear.) salary of the orancillors, the nob le lord (Lord J. Russell) Wit to thought that 1,0001. a year would not be enough, and pro poses! 2 0 'Ol. a year. He (Lord S tanle y ) q uite admitte d , that expense ought not to be co nsidered _so much as effi ciency ; but it should be Lorne in mind that every ono who retired from the Indian service had a retiring pension, to which the salary of such an o fficer as that uncle!. considera ti ,it would b au addition. tie thought that, in fixing the amount of remuneration at 1,000/. a year, the intention was not so mach to pay the councillors for the amount of service done as to give a fair compensation for the addi tional expense to which they would be put by habitual re sidence in London. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord entered into the wide and difficult question of patronage. H av i ng touched upon that question the other night, he (Lord Stanley) would not en' er into it at length now. He had never said that open competition was not a means of ob taining efficient officers for the Indian army. What he hal said, and what he now repeated, was this, that look- I ing at the system as an experiment—and it was an experie ment, which from the first had his fullest sympathies when it was proposed in that house—and looking at the fact that it was an experiment of such recent introduction, he did not think it was so universally good for the military as for the civil service. Ho did not think it desirable to decide that no person should enter the Indian army with out having submitted to competitive examination. (Hear, hear.) There was a large number of persons in the country in whom were combined considerable activity and a great desire for honour and distinction, with intellec' ual facul ties which were not of a very high order ' • and these were men who, not caring for civil service, and yet being de sirous of obtaining distinction, were prepared to im peril and sacrifice their ives in the military service. (Hear, hear.) This was a very useful class of persons, and he thought it was not desirable alto gether to exclude them. Now he did not intend to pro pose in detail a plan with regard to the disposal of patron age, but it had occurred to him that it might be dealt with in some such manner as this. The government could have no objection whatever to the trial of that plan of open competition with regard to some portion of the military service which had been already adopted in re ference to the civil service. All he contended for at pre sent was that it should not be the only means of admission. He thought, for instance, that if patronage were divided into a certain number of shares, as at present, the number of admissions over and above those shared at present, arising from the difference between the number of direc tors and the number of the council, might be fairly left for open competition. There was one observation of the noble lord to which he would advert, because it showed the intrinsic difficulties of the question. The noble lord felt that a purely literary competition was not the right means of obtaining the most efficient officers. He there fore proposed that there should he competition of another description—of what description he did not say ; but he (Lord Stanley) supposed the noble lord referred partly to physical attainments, which, in the case of the army, were equally necessary with intellectual ones. Now, there was the difficulty of dealing with this matter. So long as they were dealing with the civil service, where the test was purely literary or intellectual, there was no room for favouritism or partiality on the part of the examiners, the functions exercised being purely judicial; but by en larging the functions of the examiners they would open the door to suspicion, and the result might be to throw discredit on that which, in its application to the civil service, was liable to no such objection. Ho bad no ob jection to competitive examinations being made one mode of admission into the army, but he thought it would be, to say the least, premature to make it the only door of entrance. Something was sail by the noble lord with regard to the duties to be performed by the council in the way of making laws for India. On that sub ject be thought the noble lord had attributed to the council the functions which would belong to the legislative council of India; and he apprehended that now that a considerable share of power was being given to the council, it was very important that no colli sion should occur between the two bodies. The noble lord next touched upon the question of tenure • and on that point he would state what was the opinion of the Govern ment. He thought the question between nomination and election, or between a long term and a short one, was a question relating to different modes of attaining the same end, the importance of which every one felt, namely, that of insarine• the known independence of the council. Now, of all the plans which had been proposed-- he said this with all courtesy towards the noble lord the member for Tiver ton--the plan of combining a short tenure of office with the principle of re-election would virtually place the coun cil in a position in which they would be much more subor dinate to the minister than those permanent civil servants in the public offices who were designated by the humble title of clerks. Although, theoretically, any one of those clerks might be dismissed, practically, through the force of public opinion, no dismissal ever took place except for proved incapacity or misconduct, while under the bill of the noble lord the Minister need have no scruple in getting rid of councillors at the end of their term of office. (Hear.) Now there were, as it appeared to him, only two methods of securing the independence of the council. One of these means—and this would be put forward in a subsequent resolution—was to leave it to be elected partly by a con stituency to be named ; the other was to leave it to be nominated by the Crown, to hold office either for a long term of years or during good conduct. He thought that either of those moans would attain in a sufficient degree the object proposed. He was of opinion that the elective system would attain it the more thoroughly of the two ; but though be should submit that proposition to the judg ment of the house, he could nut shut his eyes to the ex treme difficulty of finding any constituency which this country would approve. He did not think that difficulty was absolutely indispensable, but it was a difficulty which was strongly against the adoption of the elective principle. If the elective principle should not obtain the assent of the committee, the next best means of ensuring the independence of the council was,he thought,the adoption of the proposition of the noble lord the member for London, viz., that the members of the council should hold their offices during good behaviour. He had now gone through the main points of the noble lord's address, and though he was not certain that his doing so was strictly regular, considering the nature of the question under dis cussion, he hadithought it best that there should be no he sitation or delay in stating the views of the Government. Mr. V. SMITH complained of the inconvenience of this irregular mode of discussing a number of questions con nected with India, which were not immediately involved in the question before the committee. He thought that the notion of having committees for business was a cum brous one, and it was an arrangement that was not re quired. On the contrary, what was needed was a council of advice. It was his opinion that much gain of time would be 'effected by the coalescing of the two bodies at Cannon-row and Leadenhall-street, rather than by having two boards acting in rivalry with each other. What was bm w t 1 ai a i re nomination t n tp businesst e ere proceeded it c , oe b rew e d t f oehe o utd r wol thee dtastoesbb creetrerefcfa h oteona o ururs n ninat s edocc e s it:le, ahh(iadecidednohdtbeeyvid the chiefhe une practicallyp occelehen thoughtroa ktif chairman thehi arm. tTetnihJ. C. numbers roeechfaoo.ttif ihm. bulk service o m rie f vvoo t iir Im h icol e e Ef duties of the proposed council. H e s h ou ld lik e t o k now what was the exact, amount of business transacted by the committees of the directors at the India h ouse , f o r h e be lievedfor the council,pu rposewasa clearof s h o a e n idngthe explic it delays sta t e which t t o o f o k t hplace exactin i t n h e e l i receiving the opinion n transmissionion that e ieight of t o or tdespatcheswelva members toan d at from India w as glad connected to the with the n g o o be government en wast o f the inclined country. to pause The before he opened the military s erv i ce t o com p e titi on . He average attendance of directors he believed was, according to the evidence of Sir J. C. Melvin, about six, and be was hear m most would be sufficient to c o ns tit u t e th e new cou ncil. He agreed with his noble Mend the member for the city of • London that in that serv i ce phy s i ca l qua lifi ca ti ons were o f as much importan ce as i n t e ll ec t ua l. With regar d t o th e ought to be fixed, and in order to make the council inde , pendent they should be ineligible for reappointment. He hoped the number would be limited to eight, at the out , side. Mr. T. BARING —The question as he understood it, was a proposition that the number of the council should be not more than 15 ; and if so, the original words would nearly have met the case, by providing that the council should be not more than 18 nor less than 12. It had been stated that there was a vast quantity of uninteresting matter brought before the existing committees, and thought it would he better to do away with the system. He referred to Sir J. tlelvill and Mr. J. S. Mill; but how did they obtain their information but from the mass of details which came before them. Though there might be a question whether the amount of details might not be diminished, yet he should be sorry if any council ceased to obtain that constant sup ply of records of fact as to Indie, for he believed it was the only way to ascertain the conduct of its administration in India. If at any time they ceased to claim those constant ' reports they would find the officials in India very ready to refrain from what caused them great trouble ; but if they did not have those reports they could not ascertain how the principles of government were carried into effect. He did not hear from the noble lord the member for London, nor from the.noble lord the President of the Board of Con trol, whether the intention was that this council should have frequent periodical and continuous sittings, and he must say that as far as he had been able to form an opin ion he believed that the best government, if there was to a change, would be to a lent the same system in Eng- I land as was adopted in India, th a t th ere should bete Pre sident in Council, that the m a tt er i n question should , be voted first by a majority, but still leaving the Presi dent in Council the power to overthrow thatmajority, even though they wore unanimous against him, and to act on his own opinion, provided he recorded his reasons for so doing. There was no magic in any particular number of the members, and he was not sure that if they had only 12 members that they would be all efficient men. I£ they transacted their business in committees, and had th ree committees, they would reduce the number of the mere hers of the committees to a very low amount, such as would not allow for the ordinary casualties, such as sickness. The present course, he believed, was for the chairman of the committee to explain the report of the committee to the directors, and then, if any further information was wanted it was asked for. It was, in fact, a regular council. It had been said that in consequence of cumbrous machinery you could 'not have an answer to a despatch under nine months, but Sir J. Molvill stated that he knew cases where answers had been sent out by the next mail. There was promptitude where it was necessary. Ho spoke with the greatest diffidence on this subject, but after listening with the greatest deference to what fell from the two noble lords, he confessed that he should very mach regret if there was a constant communication of every proceeding in India to the home government—(hear, hear)—for he believed that that was a great check on the government there. With regard to the question of salary, he did not think that the difference of a few thousand pounds a year would be any serious obstacle in the way of adopting a larger number of councillors. es ny honour, he thought— in the shape of being made privy councillors, for instance —would, he th oug h t, be very desirable ; but if it was thought that would attract gentlemen from India to be come councillors more than a seat in Parliament would,lhe very much doubted the correctness of that assumption. The scheme hardly involved the question of giving an indi vidual a proper compensation for his services, but it was very desirable that they should be placed beyond any temptation, and beyond the pressure of limited means. (Hear, hear.) He did not feel competent to give an opinion as to members of the council being in Parliament, but it would be a useful means of obtaining information by questioni ng th ose members. The object must be to make an independent as well as an efficient council. As to choice of councillors by election, he doubted whether it would work. He believed that if they were no minated for a period of years or for life, it would be more likely than any other mope to ensure an independent coun cil. There was another question brought before the com mittee, one of very great difficulty—he alluded to the question of patronage. There were two kinds of patronage, nomination in England and aeterwares promotion in India. (Hear.) They might be able perhaps to prevent by open competition any charge of favourit em in the first instance, but they did not exclude by open competition the favour of the mi n i s t er b e i ng sought for afterwards. There would be applications from friends of the minister, from his sup porters in that house, and from constituents of supporters,fair asking him, not perhaps for preference, chance to a particular young man,to and if he had merits but to give a promote him. Similar influence would be used with gove.- core in Indi a , an d h o did not k now h ow it was guardedtcbehair ag a i ns t. It m i g h t be said that the Cour t o f Directors over done the same, but nobody had any permanent Government rcontrol them. Th e y h a d not yet hear d f rom the had . what wore t o b o t h e dut i es o f th e couicila; permanenttheh a not heard wh e th er th ey wer e to act a s i council sitti ng regu l ar l y w ith th e president council; nor whether ih‘y were to be divided into committees, or to be merely the heads of departments. If they wished to have every province in some degree represented in council, he did not thind 18 would be too many. The CHAIRMAN said it might b 3 convenient to put , the questi on i n f orm : it w as, that the word more' be inserted in the terms of the resolution. Lord STANLEY wished to explain. The resolution had been accidentally left in a very incomplete state on a for mer evening, and it was now proposed to insert the word " more." When that amendment had been agreed to, he would propose to insert the words "than 15," and the ques tion of number would then be fairly before the committee. The question that the word " more" should be inserted was put and agreed to. Lord STANLEY said he would now propose to insert the words " than 15," and iu so doing ho would merely say that the really necessary number could only be ascertained by the practical working of the system. He would ask power to make the number as large as 15, but if it should appear hereafter that that number was not necessary, he did not wish to pledge the committee to the appointment of so many. On the question being put, Lord J. RUSSELL said he would adhere to his number of 12. Mr. C. BRUCE said all their discussions had gone to prove that it was much easier to pull down than to build up a system ; and that the old adage, " More haste less speed" was applicable to their proceedings. He thought that 15 was not a number which could adequately and efficiently discharge the duty which would devolve upon them. India was su vast that a man might reside for years in one part, and yet know nothing of any other part. He certainly thought that any less number than 18 would not be sufficient for the council. One great use of a council would be to act as a check upon the minister himself in the discharge of his duty. If he was sure that the noble lord would always be President of the Council he should have every confidence in that quality of his mind which would induce him to reject anything like jobbery or favouritism in the discharge of his duty — (hear, hear)— but the noble lord would not always be at the head of the council. They all remembered the case of that prince of intriguers, Meer Ali Moorad, of Scinde, who, though he had to deal with persons in India of great ability, was so clever as to deceive them all, including the great general who conquered Scinde, and Lord Ellen borough. When such things had happened they wanted a council sufficiently independent and numerous to check the administration. He regretted from the bottom of his heart the retirement of Lord Ellenborough, for they could not have a man more competent to deal with Indian matters—(hear, hear)—but still he bad great confidence in his successor, knowing as he did, his great ability. He would entreat the noble lord not to come too hastily to a conclusion as to the number of the council, considering that there were six great divisions of territory—Bengal, Madras, Bombay, Scinde, the North Western Provinces, and Burmah—and that there were six departments of St•tte—the military, financial, judicial, public works, police, and home administration. They could not divide the council into less than six departments, and to consti tute a perfect council there should be one member well acquainted with each department. In introducing the present bill the present Government could not be accused of a desire to grasp to patronage. The elective prin ciple in the council, which, he thought, do much to se cure its independence. But 18 members, in his opinion, ought to be the minimum of the council. The hon. member complimented the present Government upon the satisfactory exercise of power observable since their acces sion to power, both with regard to our foreign relations and the faith they had kept with the country on financial matters—(hear)—and stated his readiness to support this measure as an earnest of their general policy. (Hear.) _ . Sir E. COLEBROOKE considered that the numbers of the new council ought very much to depend on whether the council strictly confined themselves to the duties of their office, and whether they would or would not have seats in Parliament. (Hear.) He attached the greatest importance to this last point, and declared a decided lean ing towards the view that members of the council should be eligible to sit in the House of Commons. One source of weakness of the existing board of directors lay in their being so much severed from the executive, and the active deliberations of Government. It would not at all follow that members of the council who were at the same time members of Parliament would be partisans. Experience had proved the contrary. (Hear.) Gentlemen represent ing Leadenhall-street had shown censiderable abstinence in obtruding any peculiar views, and had exhibited a gene ral desire to assist the Minister of the day in measures affecting the real interests of India. The house, he thought, ought to exercise great caution indiminishing thenumbers of the council, and he believed that the hon. member for Northampton would come round to his view. The " ob structiveness" of the present board of directors really meant a substantial check upon the Government. By diminishing the number of the council that check would be required. Sir C. WOOD quite agreed with his noble friend the member for London, that the constitution of the council was the most important point in the proposition. The question of numbers of the council could not be discussed without considering what were to be the functions which they would have to discharge. The real question before the house was the alternative between 12 and 15, although the hon. member for Elgin was in favour of 18. His own opinion was that the number of 15 ought not to be ex ceeded. (Hear.) He agreed with the hon. member for Huntingdon that one of the principal functions of the council ought to consist of a review of the transactions of the Indian Government. (Hear.) He agreed that the Indian Government ought to be carried on principally in India, but the new council ought to be enabled to act as a check upon the proceedings of that Government. Undoubt edly the greater part of the details of Indian government were prepared by such men as Sir James Melvill and Mr. John Mill, and such individuals would constitute the best English element that could be introduced. (Hear, hear.) But he thought that the council ought to consist princi pally of persons intimately connected with Indian affairs. Believing that the members of the council ought to devote themselves exclusively to the duties of their office, he was opposed to their having the privilege to sit in Parliament. The Government of India would, he thought, be the best judge of the eligibility of individuals to be placed upon the council. • If the council were not to sir in Parliament, it would be a much more easy task to settle the numbers which should compose it. He did not think that the change in the bill of 1853, by which the old number of twenty-four was ' reduced, had at all impaired the efficiency of the present council. The practical effect of placing the direction in the hands of a large number would be to throw the actual work into the hands of two or three of the more active members, whereas a small council would be more likely to transact the business themselves. He laid little stress upon the argument against the principle of nomination, believing that no Eng lish gentleman would sacrifice his own conscientious opi nions for the mere sake of retaining a seat in the Indian Government. (Hear, hear.) The antecedents of Indian officials was quite opposed to this apprehension. He was of opinion that the appointment of the council should not be for too long a period, because that would prevent the infusion of new blood. With regard to the number, he thought that twelve would be sufficient. Then, again, was the Minister to be responsible, or was he to have a council for a screen ? He thought the Minister should be responsible. If they were to have a responsible Minister, Parliament should give him every assistance in its power. They could never have responsibility without conferring power. When he was President of the Board of Control he always sent to the directors whom he thought beat able to advise, and he must say that on every occasion he received the readiest assistance from that body. (Hear.) Mr. BRIGHT said the resolution before the house re ferred to the question whether the council should consist of 12 or 15. The bon. and learned member for Sheffield held that there should be no council, and he was inclined to agree with him. The noble lord (Palmerston) proposed eight, and he thought that would be a better number than 12, 15, or 18, and he hoped the noble lord would press his view on that question. He thought the Minister would be better off with a small than a large council, as there would be fewer opportunities for party divisions. He was of opinion that 15 privy councillors, with 1,5001. a year each, would be too large a drain upcn the country, and he believed that such a council would prove a complete failure. For himself he would say that he should vote for the smallest numberof councillors that might be proposed. If the resolutions went on in this slow manner he did not think they would be able to get through them by the time it would be necessary to pay attention to the grouse in Scotland. (Hear, hear.) Lord PALMERSTON said he did not often agree with the hon. member—(laughter)--but on this question he seemed to agree with him more than any one. He agreed that the house in determining the number of the council ought not to be led to an adherence to the old system, but to get as far from it as possible. He still thought eight was the best number, but as the feeling of the house seemed to be in favour of a larger number, he would ac cept the number of 12. The house should remember that this was a council of advice ; and if it was to overrule and thwart the minister for India it was not possible for hirn to be responsible to Parliament. The council should bo so far independent as to be able to give the best advice. But it was a mistake to suppose that a subordinate was valuable who gave unsound advice to ) the head of his department in (prier to ingratiate himself with him. It was the man who gave advice even against his chief's opinion, for the purpose of assisting him out of difficulty, that was to be valued and appreciated. Sir. H. WILLOUGHBY thought there was no occasion for the committee to fetter itself in reference to the mem bers ef the council when a bill had to be introduced. At present they could not know what duties the council would have to perform. Perhaps when they saw the bill they would find that a council of one would be sufficient, and then the President of the Board of Control would be a groat Mogul. He thought that it would be time enough when the bill was brought in and the functions of the council were assigned, to determine upon the number. (Hear.) At present they had no information as to what the council would have to do, and therefore he was in favour of abid ing by the original proposition of her Majesty's Govern. ment. He trusted that the house would not fetter itself by a dogmatic adhesion to a given number of councillors. Mr. ELLICE (Coventry) said the proceedings upon this resolution had reminded him of a Dutch Auction. ( laugh.) The noble lord the member for Tiverton had at first proposed that the council should consist of eight mem. bars, but now he suggested twelve ; and his noble friend the member for London, who permitted him (Mr. Ellice) to discuss the subject with him, had to his knowledge two or three opinions upon the matter. (Laughter.) The right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli) had in introducing the question made the most instructive speech he had heard during the whole of these Indian debates ; but he regretted to find that his bill did not bear out the promise of the address by which it had been heralded. Even the right hon. gentleman had never stated what the council would have to do. In fact upon that point, he (Mr Elli ce ) could collect nothing. His noble friend said it ought to be a cabinet council ; the noble lord the member for Tiverton told them that it would only have to give advice to the mi nister for India now and then, and the noble lord (the Pre sident of the Board of Control) said it would be a council of greater weight. It surely seemed absurd to be settling how many it was to consist of until they had defined its duties. (Hear, hear.) For his own part he thought its duties would be very onerous. They were told that the government of India must bo in India ; but there never was such a delusion as that. (Hear, hear.) If they at tempted to carry out such a notion the abuses must neces sarily be very great. Tney would immediately have a number of little oligarchies of councils who would dispose of the whole pa'ronage in the country amongst their friends. (Hear, hear.) The council would have to be at once a court of review and a court of appeal— it would have to operate as a check upon the government of India, and at the same time be a body to which both the nubile servants and the natives of India might look for the redress of any grievances they might have to complain of. Then it would have to undertake large financial operations amounting to five or six millions a year. Ie point of fact, the managemeut of India was not a department—it was a government itself. (Hear.) Under these circumstances it would be most foolish to reduce the number of the council too much. Sir James Melvill hail, on this point, given most valuable and disinterested evidence. Ho said that the number of the directors had been reduced as much as was safe; and he advised that no further diminution should be attempted. Considering the many important questions which would have to be dealt with, the nature of the encouragement to be given in future to missionaries, the question of education, the reform of the army, and many others, he di 1 not think they ought to cripple the machinery of administration. (Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped the house was prepared at once to vote upon this resolution, and thus to show that they were really in earnest on the subject of carrying the measure. (Hear, hear.) The only question they had then to consider was the number of which the council should consist. His own opinion was that there should be a minimum as well as a maximum named, and if the motion of his noble friend were agreed to he should pro pose to insert the words, " and not less than 12 ;" if, on the other hand, the noble lord's (Lord J. Russell's) amend ment were carried, he should propose that it ran " not more and not less than 1 9 ." (Hear, hear.) They had been asked and by no one more frequently than by the right lion, gentleman (Mr. Ellice), what the council was to do ; and the right hon. gentleman had, on every occasion, answered his own question. Speaking generally, the duties of the council would be the same as those which were now performed by the Court of Directors. (Hear.) There was no doubt that though they would no longer sign the documents, they would often virtually originate measures ; for they would lay the results of their ex perience and research before the minister, and he would no doubt frequently adopt them. It would be a real council, and he hoped it would also be an independent and an influential one. (Hear, hear.) He would advert to one or two pointed questions that had been put. As to the finance of India and its relation to the new minister, it would be the same as it was under the President of the Board of Control. The new rni,ister would exercise no more influence than the President of the Board of Control. The elective principle would be dealt with in a subsequent resolution. There ought to be a calm and dispassionate decision on that question. All sides agreed in desiring to secure the independence of the council; and whether this was to be done by the elective principle it would be for the house to decide after full consideration. Mr. Ellice had asked what government intended to do about the organisa tion of the Indian army? The resolutions had nothing to do with that. It must occupy the deliberation of cabinets, and then no doubt measures would be taken adequate to the occasion. The government ;r.eaut to issue a com mission to inquire into the w hole subject of the re organisation of the army ; a question cf that magnitude could not be left to the home government alone. The question now Lefore the committee had been fully dis cussed, and it was now ripe for a decision. It was im portant that the resolution should fix a minimum; and if the amendment of the noble lord was carried he should move that 12 be the minimum number of members of the council. The committee then divided on the question that the word twelve stand part of the questi )n, when the nnm• hers were— Ayes Noes 243 Majority The announcement was receiv3kl with tremendous chews. The word " 15" was then inserted. The words " more than 18" were struck out. Lord STANLEY then rose to move that the words "not less than twelve" be inserted. G wernment had not so far pledged themselves to a specific number, but as the feeling of the committee was evidently th a t th e minimum should be twelve, they had determined so to limit it. After some conversation, the commit tee agreed to the addition of the words propos d, Ln t the resolution as amended was passed. Lord STANLEY then moved the next resolution, that in order to secure the great amou n t o f k now l e d ge and ex perience in the management of the aff.irs of India it is ad visable that the principal portion of the members of the council shall have served in India for a term of years to he, limited by statut e . It was not, however, the intention of Government that the whole of the council should consist of old Indians, but that there should be a certain admixture of the English element. Mr. GREGSON rose to move the insertion of the words "or resided" after served, which he hoped the noble lord would admit. Lord STANLEY had no intention to exclude the civil servants, and should not object to the addition of the words. (Hear.) Mr. LIDDELL agreed that there should be a mixture of the English element, but they should have a pledge that the members should be persons who had served in India. He had not that faith in Governments that he would like to see such important offices given up as matter of comps• tition. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ■aid that as the next resolution (the Gth) was one of importance, and as several hon, gentlemen who were entitled to be heard on it were absent, he proposed that they should not proceed, with it now, but take it at the next morning sit• tang on Thursday. Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that he should move as an amendment that the council be nominated by her Majesty. Sir J. SHELLEY said both this resolution and the Lou' don Corporation Bill were fixed for that day, he would ask which would be proceeded with ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the Indian debate would be taken. The Chairman then reported progress and obtained lea's to sit again. CHELSEA BRIDGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Lord J. MANNERS moved the second reading o f this bill. He said therehad been some dissatisfaction expressed by the inhabitants of the locality that a toll was put 011 ,, the bridge. A bill was proposed by the late Govern's:lW that would have abolished the toll entirely, but that bill being submitted to a committee they declared the preamble not proved. He now proposed that the toll should cease on the receiptsof the bridge amounting to 37,00,/. The bridge had been open ten weeks, and the receipts averaged 130 1 . a week. On the whole, he thought there was a 'reasonable probability of the debt being paid. (The greater portion of the noble lord's statement was inaudible.) Mr. BLACKBURN had not heard a single word of ,the , noble lord's speech, and the majority of the commtrnie? tient; might as well be marked private and confideittOit This appeared to him as a proposal to make the i na bitante, of a local district a present of the interert on a sum a money which had. been lent them. That interest would amount to about 4001. a-year. The house had in a foolish moment lent the money to a district, andthey now wanted to break the bargain. (Hear, hear.) It was proposed last year to excuse them entirely, but that was rejoined by the committee. The present measure was an attempt to get in the thin end of the wedge. He should move that the bill be read a second time that day six months. Sir B HALL said the bill which he had introduced lea to abolish the foot toll. He would thus have given an jar mediate relief, and still would have taken the principal and interest—that is, if he could get them. (A laugh.) Lord JOHN MANNERS explained that the bill would abolish the foot toll only at the period when the sum , 97,000/. due to the Exchequer Loan Commission, and mad e up of an advance of 80,0001. and interest should have been repaid. With regard to the 120,0001. made up of the G°' vernment grants for building, &c., there had been no pled‘ of repayment, and he intended to tre a t th ose sum aß grant not as loans. Mr. ALCOCK objected altogether to grants of Pub lic ' money for local purposes, but the land, if sold by would pay off the whole sum. That was assuming that the Commissioners of Public Works now their business, but!! for one had no confidence that they did know their busts ness, or that they knew how to dispose of the land to thr best advantage. If the land for sale was worth more the: the debt, the noble lord had no right to maintain a toll 1 the bridge. He defied the noble lord to maintain the t o suction: Mr. P. O'BRIEN considered the real question at i sag o . metr o ' was, whether public money was to he advanced for politan local improvements. He should certainly suP,lli g . the amendment of the hon. member opposite (Mr. Re' burn). If this bridge must be male free, he could not derstand why every other metropolitan bridge on will ° tolls were levied should not also be made free. Sir J. SHELLEY denied that the bill had been broug ht forward at the instigation of the metropolitan m etebal l * At the same time he was determined to support the probe sition to do away with the foot tolls on the bridge; fe r , ho believed that thereby the Government property on Surrey side of the bridge would be so improved as to 0 0 °,, pensate the public for the loss of 4,0001., the amount eel realised by the foot tolls; Let it be borne in mind tl is i Battersca-park was constructed for th e use o f th e w orbie: classes, and it was an undoubted fact that the w0r123 classes were unable to use it on account of the tolls. bill did not go so far as he desired, still he would sup_Pu; it in the hope that when they go t i n t o comm ittee Pi" might improve it. Mr. S. HERBERT would vote against the second r ead ; ing of the bill. H e could no t consen t to the public we l t, being allocated for the creation of local improvenie e "" (Hear, hear.) Mr. J. LOCKE denied that a work like this could !r e considered as merely a local improvement. It was cl el ,o clear that through the maintenance of the toll the prop e : st ;s on both sides of the bridge was detrimental to value ; w o o if the toll were removed, the property would becoreto enhanced in value as to repay the Government for the T ho incurred by the surrender of the toll. As a step in t h e right direction, he should most certainly support • second reading of the bill. Mr. SPOONER moved the adjournment of the deba t e Lord PALMERSTON said his only complaint ege i l i o n the bill was that it postponed indefi n it e ly th e period sr Ir. the working-classes should have access to B a ttersear r oa It was perfectly compet en t f or P ar li amen t , if it 9 ht think fit, to forego any claim which the Exchequer relfbo have upon the tolls of the bridge. He hoped, these ° d house would sympathise with the working ela' se Nheir • would accept the bill as an inst a lme n t of what Wa s right. (Hear, hear.) 000 Mr. JACKSON, as chairman of the committee, le„ 0 0 suggest that the country should be generous and t hro w i v o r i n g the bridge, on condition that the two cou n ti e s adie m • • should guarantee the maintenance of the bridge. p ad practical man he believed that the consequent ee° l- 0 111 value of the Government land in the neighbourhood tan °f reimburse the State for the outl a y on th e cons tructie' the bridge. (Hear, hear.) witlr Mr. AYRTON suggested that the bill s hould be o ds• drawn until the report of the Metropolitan Toll C 0133 sioners should be presented. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER `" the mended the house to agree to; be Irma n to adjourn debate. The house divided on the motion f oL Lie adjourn inent. Ayes Noes Majority The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER eto served that for the future it wou ld b e we ll if they o ,e l loie an agreement that all opp ose d or d ers o f the day th ab on after 12 o'cl o ck s h ou ld b e postpone d. (Loud the The house adjourned at a quarter past one. BIRTHS. h o, Bunt— On the Ist inst. at at her residence, in Sloa ne 4"" Viscountess Bury, of : a son. tb° CLowEs--On the 10th inst., at 4 Il are wood-sq uarer wife of William Cloves, Esq., of a daughter , abeil aLs a ,, f , t" LAMB—On the 10th inst., at 3, Hinde-street , square, the wife of E. 11. Lamb, Esq., of a daUgm:nb. TURNER—On the 9th inst ,at Lee-road, Bl a ckhes,,: e of wife of Frederick J. Turner, Esq barrister-A0" a daughter. MARRIAGES. kl° i ' FRANCIS—SCOT—Oa the 10th inst., at St. Joh"%sci3O tiug-hill, Thomas Watson, son of W. S. Francifi , i r e ak of Welidos° square, London, and East Wiekhant,,, '„". of to Fanny Georgiana, daughter of R. A. Scott, Pk" Bayswater. DEATHS. Aris BROWN--On the 10th inst., at his residence, street, Soho-square; Rob ert Brown, Esq., DA).""' aged 85, B urton v 1 70°. BRIGSTOCKE—On the 7th inst., at e cot,' Jo be brokeshire, Mary Catherine relict of the Re v ' pea Brigstocke, and daughter of the late Sir Willis° Lady Sarah Champion de Crespiguy. m i rel 36 DunANT—On the Oth inst., at Poole, Dorset, "'— Esq., aged 78. $ ll LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOO-140. of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun 015°8 %19 , 1 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in Silo CD of Middlesex, Saturday, Jane 12, 180. PRINCE EDWARD'S ISLAND. Mr. GLADSTONE said that there was a bill amongst the orders of the day fur guaranteeing a loan on behalf of Prince Edward's Lland. That involved a principle of great importance—the guaranteeing of loans to 00- loniep, and the practice of the colonial legislature rais ing loans in anticipation that a gnarantee would be given by this house. lie hoped that the discussion of the hid would not n bc o e6 t ni n b n eetchttat,e.kdhe with bands a d t s a tohf l i a :x t i se e uml lj err members of the evening. He had, coins five or six weeks ago, moved for certain Caine OIL haldrehethtreudlsecdustshio"n Sir E. B LYTTON said the anti, ct was under his eon: iteration. lie had not yet bee❑ able to come to any decision, and therefore begged his right hon. friend would repeat the quetion on Monday. The motion fir the adjournment to Monday was then agreed to. EAST INDIES (THE DECCAN). O❑ the motion of Sir E. PERRY, there was ordered to I,e laid before the !Joni° copies of the proclamation of Mr. Mountstuart Elphinst?ne to the ltndholders of the Deccan, on its conque-it in 1819 ; and of instructions i,,sued at the same period to the local comm'ssioners re specting the observance of native wages and customs. 'TIE INDIAN RESOLUTIONS. The house went into committee on the Indian resolu• tions, Mr. Fitzroy in the chair. The di cwition was resumed on the third resolution, which refers to the number of the couecil. Mr. FIV ROY Raid the question he had to put was, LAS! Qraelous Quill take Jane 21st Ticket s Square, an Gene by even k telleshin itt the I Crain • er to' , )3( T. 2,SrTIVE -- Eight 43Pani 8 T. C al " e 4l /04E2 Tuf ston c "' i rodtec:ed 441 zierons !fttnencinB 440 k, le. 11 , OYA Llendr on at 3 ' th e Ash al. 441 barn 1 a fashi .aost attra Concert, Cr —Th an e s, a s, It 3 , TIC LE CTURER qurrter paa Oper b it. 11A1IN'i 31 Ce n A d s o s n u 41 18 on Cyan' L.1. 1 a. 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