The Sun. — London, England, 1860-06-01 00:00:00

1i..... . - meat should appear clearly in the estimates. I believe if " and ability, who was well acquainted with colonial affairs, this matter were looked into, we should find that a very and who was one of the founders of one of the most success considerable percent age o f saving could be effected. I know fed colonies—he me an t th a t o f C an t er b ury. Th e third gen the right hon, gentleman has a large body of clerks who, tleman was Mr. Elliot, who represented the War-office, having been b roug h t up on the old system, would be disin- and whose appointment was amply j us tifi e d 1 y t h e part dined to adopt a new one. I will not dwell further upon he had taken on this committ ee . Th e n port stated, that point, b u t I must add that I think there is some extra- in the first place, that the coloni es con t r ib uted towards vagance in the cost o f our s t a ff . Id o not wish to select in- their own defence about one-te n th o f th e co g , and it went dividuals, but i n or d er t o d o any good one must refer to par- on to say that such a state of things wts unparalleled i n titular cases. Until l a t e l y th ere was no such thing as a gene- history, and that it was an en ti re i nnovation upon the ral officer on the staff in th e G uar d s, th a t d uty being generally earlier treatment of her co l on i es b y England. He (Mr. Adderley) wished to stat e , b ecause h e b elieved there were undertaken by some officer at the Horse Guards. Theinagain, many people in this co un t ry w h o were ignorant of the fact, there are some corps w hi c h h ave more officers than theyre quire. They are also c er t a i n it ems i n t h e paymen t o f St a ff that when the Ame r i can co l on i es were first established they officers which I think it wou ld b e f or t h e com f or t o f th ose not only maint a i ne d th e i r own defence, but they met the officers themselves should b e i nqu i re d i n t o . Th ere are a l so regular armies of F rance an d S pain on the American con other appointme,te of cons id era bl e emo l um ent which it tinent and defeat e d th em. There were several instances of would be well to inquire requisitions being m a d e upon t h em, of their attacking into. A great number of general officers receive front £.5,000 to £lO,OOO or £ll,OOO a year. places in the po ssess i on o f t h e French and the Spanish, and Now, I think £5,000 or £6,000 a year is a sufficient sum f or adding them to the dominions of the British Crown. The a bishop, and therefore enough for a general officer. I Mutiny Act was not extended to America till 1758, and it know it may be considered invidious to make these re- was then the troops of England began to be sent to that marks, but unless some one does it we shall do no good, country. But to revert to the report. It went on to state An hon. and gallant gentleman has stated that we h ave that anomalous as thi s s y s t em was, i t was aggravated by 150,000 effective men upon the establishment, exc l us i ve o f the inequalities of it : th a t some co l on i es, which seemed to India. I wish we had 150,000 men at ho me , b u t_th at require help the most, were h e l pe d t h e least. Again, in figure includes the troops in the colonies, w hi c h amount to some of the rich colo n i es h er M a j esty ' s troops had allow -30,000 or 40,000 men. We must of cour se k eep garr i sons antes made to them a t th e expense of the colony, and a in certain fortresses, but the questi on o f k eep i ng troops in consequence of this was th a t h er M a j esty ' s Government the colonies has been treated of i n an a bl e report recently were obliged to raise th e p ay o f th e troops in those colonies laid before Parliament, d rawn up b y three civilians, Mr, where the allowances were no t ma d e. Lord Grey, when he Hamilton, Mr. Elliott, and Mr. Godley. Among the con- was at the head of the Colonial-office, suggested that all tents of that report is a maxim which it laid down, that the that England should do should be to maintain that amount real defence of the colonies is in the people themselves, of force in each colony which might be considered feces and not in paltry detachments disseminated through the sary for imperial purposes. The report dealt with this pro colonies. (Hear, hear.) That is no new thought, however, position, and gave three or four reasons amply sufficient for for I recollect when I was much younger I lamented the not agreeing with it. In the first place the committee erroneous system which prevailed of having garrisons in asked who was to say what force was sufficient for imperial almost all the places in our possession. That was at a time PurPoses. The committee divided the colonies and depen when the French had no large fleet ; but whether she has a dencies into two classes ; first, those which were formed for imperial purposes— w h e th er f or m ili tary purposes, such fleet or not, I hop e th e G overnment will always bear in mind that the real def ence o f t h e country is best cared for by hav- as Malta and Gib ra lt ar , or b enevo l ent purposes, such as ing a great mass of troops eoncentrated near the heart of those which were formed for the suppression of the slave the empire and taking the chance of some little island being trade. The second class were those which were territories attacked; or best plan is not to garrison all posts, but to and had governments of their own ; and the report laid mass our troops upon a cen t ra l po i nt. Even at the corn- down the principle th a t th ere was no reason why this mencement of the tremend ous mu ti ny i n I n di a, we had country should contrib u t e t o th e d e f ence of this class of nearly 12,000 men, near ly 10 , 000 o f the line, at the Cape of colonies, except that th e y were no t represented in that Good Hope. The Governor of the colony had such great house, Mr. Elliot adopted the report in the main, but he a regard for good troop s , th a t a lth oug h h e received several added to it representati ons o f hi s own. He would now ceed to notice Mr. Elli o t' s o bj ect i ons. Mr. Elliot would pro orders to detach troops he did no t d o so. He was first in n strutted to send troops to th e C r i mea, b ut he declined t o ot accept the propositi on th a t th ere was any reason why E comply, and subsequently h e rece i ve d more than one order, England should und er t a k e th e d e f ence of the colonies, ox as has been proved befo re a comm itt ee o f t h e House of Co cept that they were n o t represen t e d i n the House of Cone• ra mons ; but he said that th e co l on i es h ad other claims upon mons, from the Colonial Dep ar t men t, t o sen d troops to India, but he held back. The fact was we were spending nearly a the mother country, that in fact they took more of her pro million a-year for the advantage of the small population of duce than independent states. The same argument was the Cape of Good H o p e . (H ear, h ear. ) Th at i s one instance made use of last y ear b y Si r G eorge Grey in a speech in of the effects of th e o ld sys t em. E xcept i n the fortresses which he contended th a t th oug h the people of this country which must be held by ga rr i sons , Id o not see that there paid the cost of th e co l on i a l d efences in the first instance, need be any considerable number of troops in any other they were reimbursed by the prices which they obtained for posts. A very important communication was made to the their goods from the colonists. In other words, he argued different colonies by the right hon. gentleman the Colonial that there was not an English blanket or pickaxe sold to the Minister in Lord Derby's Administration, pointing out to colonists on which they did not pay something towards the them that they were nearly all increasing in population and support of the English army and navy. But if that was the wealth, and ought to develope their own means of local de- case, there was no foreign country which consumed Eng lish produce which did no t con t r ib ute to the support of the fence without exp ec ti ng any assistance from the mother country except i n case o f war. That point has also been English military es t a bli s h ments. Again, it was urged that ably dealt with i n th e report to which I have before referred, because Australi a c onsume d more per h ead of English pro and I hope the p resen t G overnment will follow up those sug- duce than the Unit e d St a t es , d epen d ent countries were gestions and say to th e co l on i es t h at they must place them • better customers than i n d e p en d en t ones. But to that logic selves in a po s iti on o f se lf d e f ence. Some have, indeed, done Mr. Godley had gi v e n a very pert i nent reply. He simply so. Austr a li a h as commence d , an d Canada has made consider- took another illustrati on , an d sa id t h at, inasmuch as Canada • able progress. Th e t wo p rov i nces , I b e li eve, h ave a militia took lss per head of our goo d s t h an the United States, a amounting to about 200,000 men , a f orce f ar greater than dependent stateimported less of E ng li s h pro d uce than an in our own militia. The gallant ge nera l oppos i te h as referred dependent one. He als o p o i n t e d out the fact that the consump to a most important point, the reserves o f th e army. When tion of British a r ti c l es b y t h e United States was much less Parliament was prorogued at th e en d o f l ast session there ,before than a ft er th ey h ad obtained their independence. was one paragraph in the Royal speech which attracted Illy The whole argument was based upon a fallacy which they attention and gave me much pleasure. Her Majesty con- used often to hear put forward when economic laws were gratulated Parliament that measures had been taken to form not so well understood—the truth being that foreign and reserves both for the army and navy, and that the national colonial countries purchased our produce, not on account of defences were a paramount object in the policy of the Go- their political connexion with us, but simply because it was vernnient. I think still that ought to be a paramount con- commercially speaking to their interest to do so. (Hear, sideration, but lam sorry to say the reserve for the navy hear.) Mr. Elliot next proceeded to lay down the principle has proved most insignificant in numbers and the reserve that the aid to be furnished by the mother country to her of the army hardly exists at all, or at most only to the ex- colonies in the matter of military defences ought not to be tent of a few hundred men. We have, no doubt, a consi- regulated by a fixed ra'o. The report, on the other hand, derable force in the s h a p e o f vo l unteer corps, which we ow© contended that th e amount of assistance should be settled entirely to the public spi r it an d patr i ot i sm of the country. by a rule, from w hi c h t h ere should be no deviation, The Government are entitl e d t o very li ttle credit in respect except by way of e xce pti on, of which exceptions par of that force, f or th e t ru th i s t h at f or a time they seemed to liament would be able to tak e cogn i sance. Mr. Elliot doubt whethe r th e y s h ou ld encourage or discourage the wished to leave th e ma tt er, as at present, to the discre- Hen of the Colonial-office ; but it wa s th e ev il s ar i sing from movement. (Hear, h ear .) l am sorry to see that an hon. baronet (Sir R. P ee l) h as t h ought it necessary to give no- the present system w hi c h h i d caused the gallant general tice of a motion th a t th e vote on the estimates for the volun_ : (General Peel) to appoint th e comm i ttee. There could be teer force should b e re d uce d . I can only 'say that I believe very little doubt w hi c h pr i nc i ple was the wiser. Mr. Elliot divided the co l on i es i nto four different classes, in the movement h as b een , on t h e whole, very satisfactory, and was happy to see th e amount of the force lately stated autho- stead of the tw o s p ec ifi e d i n the report; but those four, ritatively to amount to 120,000 or 130,000. lam sure that the after all, resolved themselves pretty much into two—viz., right hon. gentleman the Secretary for War will give to that those in which the European element was stronger and important f o rc e a ll th e encouragement it so well deserves. those in whi c h it was weaker. He mentioned the 'West (Hear, hear.) I r a th er regret, h owever, that steps have not Indies as an i ns t ance w hi c h had a peculiar claim for a been taken to enlarge the basis of the force. (Hear, hear.) large contribution to their defences ; but having been an lam afraid that in some quarters there is a little jealousy officer of the department, he must have known that the felt as to allowing the people at large to join in this move- troops upon which the European inhabitants relied for pro ment. I win only remind such persons that one of the tection against a rising of the coloured population were greatest Powers of Europe—Pau - id—fell and disappeared themselves men of colour. (Hear.) No doubt, if there was from the rank , f nations through the jealousy of the aristo- to be an exception from tho fixed rule, the - West Indies cracy towards the great mass of the people. (Hear.) I very would present the strongest case for such an exception in much regret that nothing has been done to establish a their favour. B u t w h y ? It was because this country had volunteer force in Ireland. (H ear, h ear.) I know very well j interfered most with it s natural policy, with its supply of that an idea exists that the people of Ireland are clisaf- labour, and with the price of its produce. Mr. Elliot men • fected, and that those who profess the Roman Catholic re • tioned Ceylon as a country which contributed 50 per cent. ligion are not so loyal to the British Crown as they ought of the cost of its defences, and said that no more bur to be. It appears to me, however, that the sympathy dens should be thrown upon it, because a great ex which many of the Irish people have evinced for the Papal penditure was going on in railways and other works of pub cause ought not to excite the least apprehension. There lie utility. But what a reason. We were making railways, is no reason to suppose, because sympathy has been mani- and carrying out great works of public utility in this coun fested towards the Pope, that they are therefore disloyal to try ; but for all that every poor man was called upon to ,on the British Government. (Hear.) It is a complete mis- tribute his share towards the defence of the empire. (Hear, take to think so, and one that ought to be rectified. We hear.) The present state of things could not bo allowed to are told that the law does not admit at present of the em- remain; and what he wished to ask the Government was, bodimeut of volunteers in Ireland. If such be the law, I how they were going to deal with the important report which say, m I have said before, that it ought to be altered with- had been made by this committee ? That report proposed a out delay. (Hear.) In the letters of the Duke of Welling- material change in our present system, a change which in ton, just published, and to which I have already alluded, I his (the right hon. gentleman's) opinion would be of very find that in 1808, when there was infinitely greater cause great benefit to the country, would add greatly to the effi than now of disaffection towards the British Throne, the ciency of the army, would be attended by a considerable re- Duke writes with much satisfaction to say that he has or- duction in the amount of our taxation, and would impart ganised a volunteer force of between 40,t00 and 50,000 safety and vigour to the colonies themselves. He did not men ; and the population was considerably less at that time ask the Government to act upon that report hastily, or with than it is now. We have had Irish militia regiments in this out duo consideration ; but he wish e d t o k now w h ether they country, and I should like to know if any one ever thought were prepared to adopt its principles and to carry them into of distrusting those troops ? (Hear.) There are, too, the effect as opportunity presented ? Lord R. CECIL diff ered entirely from the views of the Irish constabul ar y, a l most all of whom are Roman Catho lics; but I never heard that disloyalty was imputed to that right hon. gentleman who had just sat down. He thought fine body of men. These, in my opinion, are all arguments it a matter of regret that the report had got into the hands to prove that we ought to have a strong volunteer force in of hon. members ; for he did not consider that the practice Ireland as well as in this country. With regard to the which was gaining ground, of substituting for the speech of feelings of the people of Ireland on this subject, I would a minister in that house a printed opinion of his permanent refer with much pleasure to an excellent speech lately de- subordinates, was likely to be productive of benefit. How livered by the Catholie Bishop of Kerry, in which he an- ever, the report had been published, and the only result was swered some statements said to be made rather too favour- that it disclosed a serious difference of opinion which there able to the French Government. lle said such statements seemed to be no way of settling, except by referring the mat arose from a want of consideration ; that he did not be- ter to acommittee of the house. Two of the committee (Mr. lieve his fellow - countrymen or the priesthood would be so Hamilton and Mr. Godley) appeared to him to have rather wanting in common sense as to desire to have a species of exceeded the limits of the reference which the gallant gene despotism in Ireland such as existed in France ; and he re- ral (General Peel) h a d made to them ; for instead of exa minded them that th ey would not have been allowed in mining into th e c i rcumstances of each colony, one by one, France to mak e suc h speeches as had been made in reference they had gone into a statesmanly discussion of a number of to this subject. (Hear, hear.) The late Secretary for War metaphysical topics, such as the best mode of exciting a feel (General Peel) had spo k en of the exact force now in this ing of patrioti sm , an d other matters, which were wholly country, aid has d ec l are d i t as his opinion that that force beyond the purvi ew o f t h eir instructions. lie had th e is quite inadequate. In that opinion I entirely concur, greatest respect for Mr. Godley, but he did not think that (Hear, hear.) The nominal force in this country at the much stress co u ld b e l a i d on the fact that he had been a present moment is quit e i na d equate, and lam not satisfied colonist and was now at the War-office, because having with its composition. Let us economise as far as we can, been himself in the colony whilst Mr. Godley was there, he No one will be readier to do so than myself; but the pos session of a nume r i ca l f orce t h at will enable us to fight in (the noble lord) was ent i tled to state that Mr. Godley h e ld then the same vie ws th a t h e had expressed in the report ; the field is th e great o b ject that we ought to aim at. (Hear.) and the fact of hi s su b sequent connection with the Depart- We are told th a t we have 150,000 men, but we have no Butch meat of War had th ere f ore h ad nothing whatever to do with ch numb er i n th e United Kingdom. (Hear, hear, from them, He (the no bl e l or d ) must also dispute the claim of Mr. Willi ams. ) The hon. member for Lambeth no doubt the Canterbury colony, the most successful that this coun knows all about it. We may have 150,000 men in pay, but try had ever founded. The fact was it had entirely failed hi s includes men for the colonies, and some of them are in every particular in which it differed from other colonies. ghlyogarrisoned. (Hear.) Ido not believe we have more (Mr. Adderley—No, no.) The colonists had not received than for their £3 per acre the advantages which they were pro -3 ,000 troops of the line at home ; of these 20,000 are in depots, and these depots are in a most unsatisfactory raised ; and though it was perfectly true that 4,000 Eng - lishmen, who had settled in the fertile landof the state, because they are made up of recruits assembled to had reaped i for themselve s • district, gether without amalgamation. (Hear.) A speech was admit Mr, Godley's title to be considered the most sued great prosperity he, could not ful colonist that had ever left these shores. The rightcheoss lately made by a noble and gallant lord in another place on gentleman said that a sum of £4,000,000 was going to b n e . this subject, and he recommended that second battalions should be substituted for depots. This is a matter worthy amount was aweheonoluygnht,oonoo= , a a p i lin ha t to li beof wthealltiwnfeouirmdebde, of serious consideration, and I hope it will receive the atten- e w t as m te r d . Ell i?ut the fact was that, according to the statement tion of the Government. (Hear, hear.) I have to apologise the am . spent upon military stations, kept up for purely imperial to the house for the length of the observations I have ven tured to make, but my excuse is the vast importance of the objects. (Hear.) It would also be remembered that in hardly subject. (Hear, hear.) a single case would the colonies be endangered but for the M. ADDFALEY said he had given notice of ki inters- quarrels which we had at home wiih our neighbours. When tloa t o eau the attention of the house to the qmestion s of the there was a talk of a French war the utmost panic prevailed defee e e-- , este of the eol•aies, and he now brought forward that in Australia and at the Cape. Why ? Not because the co gutiect, f iat, because ho could have no other . oppor- lonists had any quarrel with the Emperor, but because they hinit Y ; and, secondly, because if it must b e du ctiii.do was to be discussed it n w or . never. If they were now to vote feared lest in the event of war he should send his ships to 15 millions fo r army estimates, it was material to consider molest their ports in order to annoy the mother country. involved Again, the whethwr some four out of those 15 millions were more or Canadians were in no danger themselves of being less thrown away. Th ey h a d a report of a government tom- in a dispute with the United States—they were mittee on this subj ec t , am . h er object in rising now was to only afraid of a dispute between America and England, ask the Government Wheith they intended to act on the about the isthmus of Panama, or about foreign enlistment. report, and, if not, what theythitended to do on the sub.. So at Ceylon, what the colonists had to fear was lest our ject. It was in March, 1859, gallant general then gtiovveererniinnthoifehlndia should produce a ferment in the na • at the head of the War- office comet the ted to the Colonial office and the Treasury his .sense of e u t il hetemitamense inconveni- might extend from the mainland to their own shores w . At the Cape the Dutch goers would require y tom, and he urged on once and mischief of the existine• t s e c rf arcely any aid against the Kaffirs, were itnot them to lay down some principle on which a n erence. They would shoot down the Kaifirs like wild 1 ment should be based, and he laid downas the basis i-, s counay ought new animals • ; and it was only because we thought that policy that di' an arrangement a double principle,— . of such inhuman, and prevented them from adopting it—because, to contribute to the defence of the eel • moreover, we had allowed two growing republics to be es eheonies against foreign aggression, but that the colonies should provide for their internal defence themselves ; and he suggested that in tablished at the north of the colony—that the settlers re was to destroy quired aid from this country. The object of Mr. Godley order to draw up a sch eme embodying these pies a would be the ythe dependence of the eolonies—but what committee should be appointed representing principles result of such a course ? The first European war that broke out d they would find that their connexion with partments, the War-off i ce, the Colonial-office, and th three de e giance at the earliest opportunity. Bury. Such a committee.was appointed accordingly. It con- us cost them to the case of Am e • in the one case a militia an d the Gedl eoyff referredtheir al 1 to ist e d of Mr. Hamilton, well known in the house for mcaonny years, who represented the Treasury; Mr. Godley, who • ma, and the Greek colonies of the olden time• But - represented the Colonial office —a man of the highest worth . b • y eacouraging Nt r i g was no sooner formed ° Lenl eAd a /spirit of self-dopeudenco less service than he can show. In answer to the question addressed to me on this point, I may say that the Secretary of State is responsible for these appointments, but that he acts on the recommendation of the Commander-in-Chief. The Duke of Cambridge said to me—" I think General Grey's services are such that he ought not to be passed over any longer; I think nothing could be more wrong than to make him colonel of a regiment on the ground that he has a place at Court." No one can deny that. " But," he added," " it would be most unjust to refuse him the place if he has otherwise a title to it, because he has an office at Court." I asked his Royal Highness whether, if General Grey were General Smith, with no place at Court, and un connected with any known family, but with some service to point to, he would be entitled to the place, and the answer was that he would have got the appointment before this. Therefore, merely because a man happens to possess a place at Court, and there may be an outcry in the public prints about his getting any other place, it would be a shabby, cowardly thing not to give him a post of this sort when it falls vacant, and he has otherwise a fair claim to it. Once lay down the rule that a man who has a place at Court is not to receive the reward to which he is otherwise entitled for service in the army, and what will be the re sult ? Her Majesty has surrounded her children with officers of distinction. The Prince of Wales is attended by General Bruce and Major Teesdale, Prince Alfred by Colonel Cowell, Prince Arthur by Major Elphinstone. Well, once make i t the rule that the moment a man accepts a Court place a black mark shall be set against his name, that his past service shall not count, that he shall be de barred from receiving the legitimate honours of his profes sion, and you exclude from the places which it is the inte rest of the country to have filled by the best men the very officers whom you would yourselves select, as the best per sons to discharge the duties. Nothing could be more un just than to lay down such a rule. The gallant officer who brought this matter forward said I spoke to him so confi dently he supposed I had a good case. I believe I have a good case, and I repeat it would have been a mean, shabby, cowardly thing to have refused an officer, on account of name, position, or connexion, that reward to which, in the ordinary course of service, he was fairly entitled. It has been said that Sir H. Inglis has been recommended to the colonelcy of a regiment out of his turn. I own that such a step may be taken exception to ; but as the gallant officer had re turned from India with broken health, and as this was the regiment with which he defended Lucknow, both the Duke of Cambridge and myself were of opinion that it would be a just and graceful act to offer him, although out of his turn, the command of the regiment with which he had been so honourably associated. (Hear, hear.) I will not now make any further observati •ns, but after this long discussion I trust the House will allow me to take, at any rate, the first vote. The difference in the number of men is very small, only about 2,000. The discussion may be taken on the next vote for the pay, and we shall then have taken one step in considering these estimates. Mr. DISRAELI said he would only interpose for a mo ment, as he thought the right hon, gentleman was entitled to their assistance after the able manner in which he had replied to the diversified subjects brought under his notice. (Cheers.) The question which had been raised by the gal lant general the member for Westminster was one of greater importance than the mere merits of an individual or the pro priety of a single appointment, and he thought the House would do well to express, though not in any formal man ner, its opinion upon it. He could certainly have no pre judice in favour of General Grey, because his earliest re collections were associated with having stood three con• tested elections with General Grey, in all of which he had been vanquished by that gentleman, and they were at a time of life when defeat did not leave the same amiable results which in after life were experienced. (Laughter.) But he thought the right hon. gentleman the Secretary of State had given a sufficient answer to the charge that General Grey was not entitled by his services to promotion. The right hon. gentleman had very properly reminded them that the question was whether they were to lay down the rule that because an officer held an appointment at Court, he was therefore to be looked upon as a soldier who was not able to obtain promotion in the profession to which he belonged. It was not merely in re ference to our own Court and our own Princes that those in immediate attendance on the Royal family were mem bers of the military profession. It had been the custom during the last two centuries in Europe. It was quite un necessary to dsscuss the propriety of the custom. Very good reasons, if necessary, could no doubt be given ; but this was a practical assembly, which had only to deal with facts, and it was a fact that the households of Sovereigns and of Princes near the throne were formed invariably of members of the military profession. The consequence of any rule that they should not be entitled to preferment in their profession must be, that they must have, in the Royal household, a very inferior class of persons. It was not the interest of the country that the Sovereign and princes of the Royal Family should be surrounded by military parasites. (Hear, hear.) As long as / the present system prevailed—and he saw no reason why it should cease to pre vail—it was of the utmost importance, and of the highest public interest, that officers who accepted appointments in the Royal household should be men of the highest class. (Hear, hear.) The public interest was that individuals occupying such a position should, by their cultivation and general feelings, be men who would, by their high qualities, exercise a beneficial influence on the sentiments of those with whom they were brought in contact. The gallant gentleman whose name had been called in question was one who certainly fulfilled that condition. He was the son of an illustrious statesman. He was a distinguished man in his own profession, and he believed it would be acknow ledged by all that he had performed the duties of his office at Court in a manner which entitled him to the confidence of the public. (Cheers.) Colonel DICKSON said the appointment of Sir J. Inglis was really little more than a graceful compliment, as he would have to resign the pension which had been conferred upon him for distinguished services. The house then went into committee about half-past 1 o'clock. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. Mr. S. HERBERT asked the house to vote 1,007 addi tional men, about 7,000, in lieu of 5,000 having come home from India. There were some small reductions, scarcely of sufficient importance to mention. On the third vote, for the land forces, these was a reduction of £54,000, from the reduced number of men to be raised. There was a saving of £5,000 in the purchase of horses, in consequence of Fieli Artillery not raised. There was a small diminution by the abolition of a military prison in Canada. There was a re duction of £75,957 in wages, which was part of the reduc tion made on the vote for stores, in consequence of a less amount of work performed in the carriage department. The carriage department was at the head of the gun department, and therefore it was thought better to make a reduction to that extent. With respect to the reduction of clothing it was owing to their not having to give the three kits to the troops from India which they would have to give if the men had to be raised. Colonel HERBERT complained that regiments of the line at home were kept weak while a large sum was ex pended on the embodied militia. Mr. S. HERBERT, in reply to General Upton, said he could not hold out any hope that the Government would increase the rate of pension ; and, in his opinion, it would be a better course to increase the pay than to increase the pension —a course which he was persuaded would tend more to increase the efficiency of the army than that sug gested by the hon. and gallant general, and moreover, as the term of service had been shortened, there was not the same necessity that would otherwise exist. The vote, after a few remarks by Sir F. SMITH, in re ference to a discrepancy in the figures, was then agreed to. On the motion that a sum of £3,236,701 be granted to her Majesty towards completing the pay and allowances of the land forces, Colonel LIN OSAY said the army was very much in debted to the right hon. gentleman for the improvements he had introduced. With regard to the old warrant, he begged to observe that when a man had given eighteen years' service, he became entitled for that time to increased pay for good conduct marks ; and also if he served sixteen years clear of that time without having been on the default book. The number of years under the new warrant had been reduced, and might, in his opinion, be still more re duced with advantage. With regard to officers who had served five years on the staff, he thought it a great disad vantage that they might then be removed from that branch of the service. He had given notice on that subject. Take, for instance, an officer holding the rank of adjutant general, after he had served five years upon the staff at £l6O a year, he was then removed from that rank and re duced to an income of £2OO a year. He thought that not right. They now wanted to encourage their best officers to serve on the staff, and they also compelled them to go through a superior mode of educaron to prepare themselves for the staff appointments ; but after they had got them they in a short time removed them from that branch of the service. Now he contended, if they compelled their best officers to go on half-pay after they had served with ability on the staff, such a course would prove very discouraging. They, by such a course, turned those officers adrift. Sir JOHN TRELAWNY said he was not satisfied with the explanation of the right hon. gentleman the Secretary at War in relation to the appointment of General the Hon. Sir C. Grey to the colonelcy of a regiment. I was not, in his opinion, sufficient for the right hon. gentle man to state that General Grey was in every respect quail- fled for the appointment. His opinion was that the righ hun. gentleman should have shown the house that no other THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, JUNE 2 " 1, 1860.- in the colonists than their arms were turned against our selves. In the other case it was palpably absurd to call the Greek colonies, colonies in one sense of the term Syra was in fact, no more a colony of Corinth than England was of Saxony. He believed that the adoption of Mr. Godley's proposals would very seriously tend to undermine our great colonial empire. (Hear, hear.) Mr. C. FORTESCUE entirely concurred with almost everything that had fallen from the noble lord, but he was sorry the subject should have been introduced in this in formal manner. He particularly regretted the absence of the right honourable baronet who had lately held the office of Colonial Secretary (Sir G. B. Lytton), for he was satisfied that his opinions would have been very different from those of the right hon, gentleman opposite. The right hon. gentleman asked what course the govern ment intended to take with regard to the report. It must not be forgotten that there were virtually two reports, which were incompatible with each other. The first of those documents was a very able one, but its practical utility was somewhat doubtful. It would have been better, in his opinion, if the gallant gentleman had not fettered the committee by his instructions, but he was bound to say that they seemed to have entirely forgotten what those in structions were ; because, instead of laying down a scheme for each colony, they had merely recommended one simple, rigid, uniform rule, to be applied indiscriminately to every case without regard to its particular circumstances. Mr. Godley, in the first place, proposed to give to each colony the initiative responsibility and management of its mili tary defences, and he suggested that the inhabitants should contribute to those defences in a certain definite and fixed proportion, without reference to the poverty, the wealth, the danger, or the necessity of any particular settlement. Such a scheme he (Mr. Fortescue) felt . convinced would not be practicable. The fact that the question of peace or war was not iu the hands of the colonists rendered it in cumbent upon the imperial government to treat them with consideration, and to go to some expense for their protec tion. A great part of the right hon. gentleman's speech was devoted to the question whether it was worth our while to keep our colonies ; but being of opinion that it was the business of the Colonial-office to preserve them, he would not follow the right hon. gentleman the arguments he had offered on the subject. (Hear, hear.) It was a mistake, however, to suppose that the chief risk which the colonies ran lay in the danger to which they would be exposed in the event of a great European war ; it was to be found rather in the hos tility of formidable native tribes. (Hear, hear.) No doubt a great deal of expense had been incurred at the Cape, but at all events the colony had been saved the hor rors of another Kaffir war. It was the dangerous combi nation of races under cne government, such as existed in the West India Islands, the Mauritius, and Ceylon, which required for the preservation of public safety the mainte nance of a considerable force. Considering their means of defence, and their possible dangers, the colonies ought to endeavour to do all in their power for themselves, and at the least expense of imperial troops. The military spirit was rapidly rising in Australia. (Hear, hear.) Those colonies stood least in need of imperial troops, being com pletely isolated from other countries. Still he should be sorry to see them left without a certain number of English red coats, at least sufficient to constitute a guard for the government. The recommendation of the report that a uniform proportion of imperial troops should be supported in each colony was not practicable ; for in many cases they would have to reject some portions of the voluntary aid furnished by the colonists themselves. (Hear.) The go vernment would use their best endeavours to reduce the military expenditure in the colonies, where it could be done; but they would not undertake the responsibility of carrying out such a rigid and uniform scheme as was re commended in the report. Mr. A. MILLS thought that the subject was a proper one for the consideration of a select committee. The report expressed some very valuable opinions ; but he rather con curred in the dissentient views expressed by Mr. Elliot. It was most desirable that some means should be adopted of proportioning imperial to colonial expenditure in the different colonies. As the estimates were now framed it was difficult to ascertain, in many cases, what proportion of expenditure was really made in respect of the colonies. The expenditure on the colonies was much exaggerated. He did net recommend that we should take lessons from France; but he found that the cost to the country of Algeria was as much as the cost of the whole of the British colonies. We made a large colonial expenditure under the head of fortifications, especially in North America. But what was the value of the fortifications of Quebec, unless in the event of an attack by the United States, which, to be successful, must be favoured by the colonists themselves ?—and of what value would the fortifications then be ? In such a state of things the con nection of the mother-country with that colony would be severed at once. He should be glad to see the estimates prepared in a more distinct manner, so as to show the exact amount of colonial expenditure. PENSIONS OF NON-COMMISSIONED OFFICERS AND SOLDIERS. Gen. UPTON asked if it was the intention of the Go vernment to recommend a revision of the warrant of the It July, 1818, with a view to its improvement, and especially to increase the rates of pension of non-commissioned officers and soldiers discharged the service in a helpless condition ? At present these pensions were miserably low. Those who had been in the army less than ten years were only allowed a temporary pension of 6d, a day for 18 months; if above ten years, the same amount was allowed for two years; and if they had served 11 years, for three years. The only re • maining point to which he would allude was the very in sufficient pension granted for total blindness. It was only from 91. to ls., which he considered to be totally inadequate. Mr. W. WILLIAMS said many attempts had been made to convince the public that we had not a sufficient force for the internal defence of the country. It appeared, however, that of the 145,000 men proposed to be voted, 105,000 were to be stationed at home. In addition we had depots of regi • ments in India, 15,000; marines on shore, 6,000; enrolled pensioners, 15,000; embodied militia, 23,700; disembodied militia, 44,300 ; yeomanry cavalry, 15,000 ; Irish constabu lary, 12,000 ; rifle volunteers, 100,000. We had thus a total force of 336,000 men—sufficient, certainly, to repel any in vader, no matter how powerful ho might be. A great deal had been said of our colonies. It appeared from a recent return that their military defence cost us £3,590,000 per annum, in addition to which we had to pay a considerable sum for colonial bishops and magistrates, making the total expen diture £1,877,000. Other countries managed things differ ently. The Dutch colonists not only maintained them selves, but remitted £2,600,000 a year to the Home Govern ment, while the Spanish colonists remitted £1,150,000 to Madrid, after paying all their own expenses. Yet we were taxed to the amount of £4,877,000 for our colonies. Party struggles very often took place between the front Opposi tion and the Treasury benches, but he noticed that when ever the public money was to be voted away there was never any difference between them. (Hear.) The estimates showed an amount of extravagance never equalled in this country in times of peace ; but the gallant general opposite stood up to defend them, and the Secretary for War was no doubt glad to have such powerful assistance. Looking at the expenditure of the country when Sir R. Peel and the I Duke of Wellington were at the head of affairs, and con trasting this, or even the expenditure in 1852, with the enor mous sums now asked for, ho was astonished at the extra vagance which now prevailed. (Hear.) The Guards, corn prising 6,300 men and 261 officers, coat in pay a10ne.C206,300. On the other hand, six regiments of the Line, containing 123 men more, but only 228 officers, cost less by £12,840, and in clothing cost less by X 11,470, making altogether a saving of £51,310 as between the Line and the Guards. He regarded such a difference as inexplicable and unnecessary. Col. KNOX asked the right hon. gentleman to state the course which he intended to pursue with regard to the pur chase system. He had been understood to say that the pur chase system should cease at the rank of major, and that from that point promotion should be by selection. Now, the real fact was that selection meant jobbery. (Hear.) No thing was more invidious than that an officer should rise to the rank of major, and then find himself with no guarantee that he or his interests would afterwards be in any way protected. Sir C. NAPIER, in answer to the hon. member for Lambeth (who asked what made it necessary to spend so much more money now for the army than during the Go vernment of the Duke of Wellington and Sir R. Peel), ob served that at that time there was not a Napoleon Bona parte on the throne of France, nor had France then an army of 600,000 men. (Hear, hear.) For the same reason the money now spent on the navy must be much greater than during the period alluded to, for it had been officially announced to that house that France could man her fleet when England could not man hers. A friend of his who had just come from France had asked a gentleman high in the naval department of that country whether the statements made in that houee relative to the condition of the French navy were correct, and the answer he received was that as regards the ships they were very nearly correct, but that as regards the personnel they were far understated. He had also been told by two gentlemen who had been at Toulon that there were seven years' store of every description in that place, and that the French could send out from it 20 sail-of the line, and 30,000 men in less than a fortnight. Therefore he said that instead of the forces of this country being too large, they were a great deal too small ; and he called attention to the fact that at the present moment the number of sailors for the British fleet was 7,000 below the vote of the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) Sir F. SMITH expressed his regret that the present es timates were not deferred until the Secretary for India had made his statement for India, because the number of men for India must, to a certain extent, regulate the expense of the establishment at home. (Hear, hear.) Mr. PALK said that the Secretary of War had under taken to lay on the table of the house the report of the com-:' mittea on the defences of the country before Whitsuntide, and he wished to know why that promise had not been fulfilled. Of all questions the most important was that relating to the defence of the country, and it should not be allowed to be put off until nearly the end of the session. (Hear.) The subject was a grea'er cne than even reform or the wine duties—(hear, hear)—and he warned the Go vernment that it was not a question to be trifled with. Many questions *might be postponed, as undoubtedly they must be; but the question of the national defences could not be postponed. The right hon. gentleman had promised tg , gate the details of the steps Wended tto be taken, and also to lay upon the table the report of the commissioners, but if that was not done at once there would be no time for the house to consider the subject fully as it deserved. Mr. BENTINCK wished to know whether, before vote 12, which included a lump sum of £645,355 for fortifications, was taken, any statement would be given of the details. Ho believed that all such expenditure as that incurred at Alder ney was worse than wasted—(hear, hear)—because when ever the contingency occurred which all had in their minds. although they did not like to name it—a French war—we should have to find the men to defend the works. We should be found to have built those fortifications for the enemy, and not for ourselves, as the harbour was neither a harbour of refuge nor of observation. Mr. S. HERBERT—In answer to the last two speakers, I venture to say, in spite of the hard words of the hon, gen tleman opposite, that I have not in any way shirked or evaded my duty. I have given every attention to the sub ject, which is one of immense importance; and I think no gentleman will consider the Government ought to have laid the report of the commissioners on the table without at the same time being prepared to state the course they pro posed to adopt. The report is, I believe, so far advanced in printing that I shall be able to lay it on the table next week, but it would not be right to do so until I could state the course we propose to take with regard to the recommenda tions contained in it. In answer to the question of the hon. member for West Norfolk (Mr. Bentinck), I may say that I never intended to ask the house to vote a lump sum with out knowing the details. I inserted a lump sum because when we were about to deal with the report of commis sions which contemplated works on a large scale, it was necessary for me to put a vote in the estimates which might be necessary if any action were taken upon the report, but which must be altered in its proportion and distribution ac cording to subsequent decision. I proposed a vote, but Ido not think the house ever anticipated that I should ask them to grant it until all the details were explained. The details shall be given before the house is asked to pass any vote upon the subject. The questions raised have been so numerous that I hardly know where to begin. (Hear.) I think the hon. gentleman opposite began by asking whether I could produce the correspondence that had taken place as to the yeomanry not being called out for training this year; and another hon. gentleman said there was great alarm in the regiment he commanded lest the Government should intend to do away with that constitutional force altogether, and that the men were falling away in consequence. The omission to call out the yeomanry is not without precedent. It has occurred several times within my recollection, and no further back than 1857. The yeomanry, however, have gone on and flourished since that time, and I should be sorry that any step taken by the Government, as this has been, under pressure, should lead to the impression that they under valued the services of that force, or that it was not intended to call them out again. I believe it is a most valuable force. It may be a matter of consideration whether improvements in its organisation might not be introduced, but the Govern ment has a high opinion of the value of the yeoman , y corps, and would not desire at all to discourage them. This year I have been under severe pressure to provide materiel, so that I was glad to avail myself of every source that would enable me to meet what is most important—the permanent defence of the country. The hon. baronet behind me has referred to changes of officers from the Guards to regiments of the Line. I know that of late years the Guards have been very severely dealt with, and no one is more responsible for that than myself, for I felt it my duty on former occasions to deal with great severity towards the Guards. But just look at the difference which the warrant of 1854 has made. Before that time the Guards, having always a step in army rank in advance of the Line, and in attaining by brevets the rank of major -general they did occupy a position in the list of major-generals quite disproportioned to their number. But the warrant of 1834 did away with all that. It is true they can exchange into the Line, but how seldom de you find that done unless under very exceptional reasons ? A lieutenant-colonel of the Line is qualified to become a full colonel, but if he exchanges with a lieutenant-colonel of the Guards he is qualified for nothing. That has made a very great difference with regard to these exchanges, and the gallant officer opposite has written an able pamphlet is which he complains of the effect of the change which has taken place. (Hear.) I feel, therefore, that when speak ing of this ancient corps, many of whose special privileges have been taken from them during the last feav'years, and when I recollect that I have been the instrument of doing things that have pressed hardly upon them, I am bound to say something for them. (Hear.) The hon. member for Lambeth spoke of the great advantages possessed by the Guards, and seemed to deride their services, as if they con sisted of little else than marching from the Tower to Wind sor and from Windsor to the Tower. The h , n. member, in so speaking, was utterly forgetful of the duties which they have to discharge. (Hear.) Whenever there is an important service to be performed, an expedition to be un dertaken, we uniformly go to the Guards, as a corps we are sure to find in the finest state of discipline and efficiency. (Hear, hear.) I was asked by the lion. baronet (Sir J. Trelawny) whether or not aides-de-camp were subjected to examination. I have to reply that, not only are they sub jected to examination, but to one of some importance, and which exceeds in extent that of almost any other coun try in the world. They are examined, not on military matters only, but in languages and other a. complishments. I find that in Prussia, for example, which is the most exa mining country in the world, and where there is an almost pedantic adherence to theoretical tests, there is no exami• nation for aides-de-camp. It is, however, strictly carried out with us, and I b lieve it is attended wall very great advantages. (Hear.) A gallant officer opposite spoke of the expense of the disembodied militia, but ho also said that, after all, if it was found to be of service for recruiting the array he did not see how it could be abolished without de triment to the public service. (Hear.) There used to be a vast amount of men in this department on paper, who were maintained in this position because it was said that if that number of men no longer existed the difference would be filled up by men who Would only enlist to abscond. All these paper men had now been struck off, I do not know it officially, as the returns have not yet been sent in ; but I have reason to believe that all the men have been struck off who do not really exist, and who have either deserted or gone over to the line. I have also just sent out a circular to the colonels of disembodied militia, containing the most stringent regulations against recruiting parties at tempting- to induce disembodied militiamen to leave the militia to join the line, because I think there is no more use in asking a militiaman to go to the line than there would be to ask a man to leave one regiment for another. (Hear, hear.) The officers of the militia when they know they are protected from that invasion will have recourse to a class of men not very valuable for the line but valuable for the militia—men of fixed habits and whose characters are known. (Hear, hear.) In this matter I think that not only the house but the public out of doors are run away with by the comparison which they make between an embodied and disembodied regiment. It is said that 28 days' pay will not make an efficient soldier. No one says it will. If you want to make an efficient soldier pay him all the year round. But if you want a reserve that will not cost much, and which by further training can be made efficient men, then I say the system of 28 days' pay will, as near as possible, combine the two objects of cheapness on the one side and a certain advance towards efficiency on the other. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Lambeth complains that the two sides of the house uniformly support each other when the estimates come to be considered, and that the economy of the service cannot in consequence be carried out; for, whatever difference of opinion there may be on other ques tions, they are always, he says, sure to combine to main tain the estimates. Now, I think I can explain this by say ing that on other questions we are more or less regulated by party feelings, but that no one can shut his eyes to the necessity that exists of having this country at all times in such a state of defence as to make it secure against the ag gressions of an enemy. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gen tleman (Gen. Peel) has referred to the system of reliefs, of which he complained. All I can say is that, though the rules which have been laid down for reliefs are adhered to as closely as possible, there are often disturbing causes at work that prevent them being regularly carried out". Thus, the Indian war, the Russian war, and the Indian mutiny very ma'erially disturbed the arrangements that had been made, and at one time during the Russian war we had not more than 24,000 troops in England. This arose because, with a small establishment, we were attempting to carry on a great war. (Hear.) We are told of those times when, during the administration of Wellington and Peel, the military and naval expenditure of the country was so much less than at present, the army estimates being £11,000,000 less than now; but we must recollect that this great redue took place when the whole face of Europe was exceedingly pacific; and we must also recollect that for that state of things we are now paying—(hear, hear)—for it was the lowering of our stores, and the reduction of our armaments in those times that have imposed on us now the heavy burdens we are called to bear. (Hear, hear.) We have been for years at the War-office striving to retrieve this error, for we were deficient in stores in every part of the world, and it is an error that I trust we shall not fall into again. (Hear, hear.) I think we are bound to look most closely to every item of our vast expenditure; but I con fess that I find great difficulty in carrying out this object, in consequenee of the claims that are constantly put in now by one class of officers and now by another, all of which would go to increase greatly our military expenditure. The Secretary for War, however, is bound to recollect that we have got the most expensive and most highly paid army in Europe, and that every time the cost of that army is increased the effect is to diminish its num- bers. (Hear.) A question has been put to me about the Land Transport Corps. I had thought that the question of the Land Transport Corps was long since settled, and I confess I was somewhat alarmed when I was charged with not having kept good faith with the persons making the claims now urged. An hon. gentleman spoke of their being promised K Gs. a-day, and that the agreement was that they were to be taken for two years, but that agreement, it turned out, was only to bo carried into effect provided their services were requited. Then the hon. member for Green wich got up with a gigantic placard in his hand—(a laugh) —and I confess I was somewhat alarmed, thinking it almost impossible but that some recruiting zealot, regard less of truth, had made some promise of a three months' gratuity on service for two years. (Hear.) Not a bit. The placard agreed with the attestation. The Government had adhered to their bargain, and there was not a shadow of a Me of grierum agaiwt them, 1 4 9 1 .4 Pa zaure AppOillted a board of officers to consider the complaints of these men. They refused to acknowledge the authority of a deputation or a committee, for these men had got into the lawyer's hands. But they heard every individual, and they settled their claims satisfactorily. I now come to thee question which ray hon. and gallant friend (Colonel Lindsay) brought under the notice of the house relative to the offi cers who in 1826 accepted unattached rank on half-pay, the Government having thought it necessary to relieve the list. My predecessor in office thought that the case on the part of these officers was a good one, and he referred to the Treasury, who refused the claim. I am, therefore, impartial in the matter. I thought there was a doubt upon the interpreta tion of the general order, but I think, upon the whole, that the Treasury was right. No one would have made so im provident a proposal as that these officers should be pro moted by steps of unattached rank, and should have, not only the advantages of half•pay, but also the advantages of full-pay during that time. Two years before that period a rule was established requiring six years' service as field officer before a man could become a major-general. These officers thought it a hardship that they should go upon half pay and lose 4s. 6d. a day for so many years. But they got their steps in promotion, they were freed from foreign service, and they rose in rank to be brevet officers. The hon, and gallant gentleman says they did not intend to marry, but that was their misfortune. (A laugh.) What was the object of the rule ? A man was to serve six years as a field-officer, because the experience of a field-officer's rank is necessary to make a General officer. If the Go vernment guaranteed to them a dispensation from the six years' service as field-officers, they would not only have all the advantages of half-pay and full-pay, but another advantage which full-pay could not procure for them—namely, the dispensation from service as field officers. This would be a solution of the problem that has puzzled so many people —how to eat your cake and have your cake. They would gain a step in rank, they would be receiving their half-pay at home, and at the end of the period they would be in as good a posi tion as an officer who had been under a grilling sun in the East or West Indies, or had served in the most un healthy climate. Although there might be a doubt on the words of the general order, I think the Treasury upon the whole came to a wise and just decision in this particular case. With regard to the question of the compulsory re tirement of medical men at 55, the warrant gives them great advantages in a higher half-pay. There is, too, this to be said, that, although the rule may be said to be an arbitrary one, it is not only advantageous to the soldier, but to the medical profession, as it entails more rapid promotion in the regiment, and gives the soldier the benefit of the service of men in the vigour of their age. I now come to the queStion raised by my hon. friend, who says we have been doing a great injustice unwittingly to some of the colonies. There are in the estimates all the sums that the different colonies pay in aid of the militia expenses of the colony, and which are paid under arrangement into the Exchequer. The par ticular colony of Victoria, which is, I admit, one of the most liberal, does not appear on that page, because the sum is paid into the Exchequer either as colonial allowances, or to cover the whole pay and allowances. When the regi ments are serving in India the payment is left blank, be cause the Indian Government undertakes the payment. When a regiment in Australia is paid entirely by the Aus tralian Government it ought to stand with that explanation against it; but there is this difficulty in the way:—We make our estimates for the year to come three or four months before the estimates are agreed to. We ought to know beforehand what the colony intends to do. The co lony at different times, either from local financial difficul ties or other causes has taken different views, and we, of course, are not aware whether by a vote they may not de cline to advance their money. If, however, we could come to a clear and definite arrangement for a payment extending over a certain period the difficulty would be got rid of. I, for one, should be glad to see a colony so I üblic spirited receive full credit for its liberality on the estimates. I will not now enter upon the subject of colonial defences intro duced by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Adderley)—a sub ject of all others requiring the most careful, deliberate, and delicate handling. (Hear.) It would be taken very ill in the colonies if the Government, without consulting them and giving them an opportunity of pointing out any excep tional circumstances, were to announce that they were going to apply a Procrustean rule to them as to the pay ment by them of the expenses of colonial defence. (Hear.) We have the advantage of the labours of the committee, and the very clear and able rule they have laid down, and, on the other hand, we have the exceptions taken by one of the committee to some of the opinions in the report. If the world were ruled by logic the arguments might be very good, but men have feelings and passions which must be taken into consideration, and upon no subject is it more necessary to act with care and caution than upon one so largely appealing to the interests, feelings, and hopes of the different colonies that compose our colonial empire. (Hear, hesr.) I come now to the question of the artillery corps. I must say that a great deal of the argument of my hon. and gallant friend I thought it extremely sound, but I can not help suspecting that he as an artillery officer did not examine both sides of the question. The artillery and en gineer officers are a peculiar body, and have almost a mo nopoly of a vast number of places and appointments to which they are fully entitled by their attainments, but from which officers of the line are excluded. They are a seniority corps—(hear, hear)—without purchase and with out selection, and the result is that until a great aug mentation of the force has made the junior officers young men you have men of very advanced age in the upper ranks. Tho average age of the full generals of artillery was, I believe, lately SI S ears. (A laugh.) The average age of 15 officers commanding brigades, answering to the colonels cf regiments, was 78, and of 16 unattached officers 71 years. The three supernumeraries are, I believe, all employed. The same observation, of course, applies to the engineers. The pay of artillery officers is very high. A bri gade of artillery, which answers to a battalion of the line, has a colonel, who is generally on leave, another colonel in command, and four lieutenant-colonels. The officers of ar tillery enjoy an entire monopoly of the staff of their own corps. It would not do to make an officer of the line Adju tant-General of Artillery; but the staff appointments of the line are open to officers of artillery. .Now these are all de cided advantages. The number of artillery officers employed in other departments not strictly military is very large, and I own that, in my opinion, it is only what they are fairly entithd to from their superior attainments. There are 29 officers of artillery on the staff, including Colonel Bingham, Colonel Wodehouse, Colonel Dickson, See. Colonel Wilford is Governor of the Cadet Company ; Colonel Tulloch, Royal gun-carriage department ; Colonel Askwith, gunpowder manufactory ; Colonels St. George and Rowan, and Lieu tenant-Colonels Campbell, Younghusband, and Smythe, War Department ; and so on, to the number of 40 altogether, in - civil employment. All these things must be taken into consideration as a make-weight against the lesser employment of the staff of artillery officers in other capacities. I think that officers of that corps placed in command in districts where the artillery amount to 4,000 or 5,000 men have a fair claim to consideration, and I believe this matter is now under the consideration of the Commander-in -Chief. As the hon. gentleman (Mr. Connolly) who complained of the scandalous outrage committed on his proprietary rights as the owner of a large fishery, has postponed his motion, I need not go into the question now. His argument is that when the War Department lease a property, they do so for military purposes alone, and therefore acquire only the right of firing guns or whatever it may be, without any manorial rights. I cannot admit that such is the case. I hold that wh the War Department buys land, it bays everything belonging to it, the same as any other purchaser; and I do not sad why the public should be rolehed of those particular rights, when they pay for them. General PEEL. —And pay a great deal more than any body else. Mr. S. HERBERT.—A great deal more, no doubt ; and therefore I do not see why we should give up any of our rights. I come now to the speech of the gallant officer the member for Westminster (Sir De L. Evans). He said, with great truth, that in a committee upstairs after we had discussed the subject of the responsibility of the Seeretary of State for the appointment of officers of high rank, when he asked whether or not I was responsible for the appoint ment of General Grey to be colonel of a regiment; I replied that I should prefer to have that question addressed to me in the House of Commons. I thought that if a transaction of that sort was to be publicly questioned, it ought to be done where it could be publicly defended. (Hear, hear.) The gallant officer began by reading extracts from the evi dence given by Lord Fitzroy Somerset, to the effect that the colonelcies of regiments were given to three classes of officers—first, to those who had distinguished themselves in war; second, to those who had performed colonial ser vices; and, third, to those who had commanded efficiently and respectably at home. The gallant officer supposed that General Grey's appointment came under the last head. That is a mistake; it did not come under the last head. I have seen it stated in the public prints that General Grey was an officer who was never out of Hyde-park ; and by way of cumulating all his offences that he was a guardsman. (A laugh.) General Grey never was a guardsman. He was in the line all his life. He was attached to the 43d Regi ment, and was twice on colonial service with it. He was colonel of the 71st Regiment, and visited Canada with it. He commanded it for nine years. During the whole time General Grey was in the army there were only two occasions when there was a foreign expedition of any kind —one was to Portugal and the other to Canada, when the rebellion had broken out ; and he happened to take part in both. I wish to destroy entirely the notion that General Grey has been a stranger to service out of Hyde-park. He comes under the category of having served in the colonies. Lord Fitzroy Somerset laid down correctly the rules which had hitherto prevailed in disposing of these colonelcies. They are not given according to strict seniority. Officers are occasionally passed over by those who aro their juniors. That was General Grey's case. Ho was passed over th' ee or four times, and once by a very excellent officer, who had seen no service--General Breton, who is now in Mauritius. It is said there are officers senior to General Grey, who can point to long and distinguished service. General Bell's name has been mentioned; but on referring to the Army List I find he is considerably the junior of Gen. Grey. There are officers who have served inthe Peninsula, but theyhavo done nothing since. What has any one to say against CieAeral grey r 9tacer After am has been, app04,44 with officer had been passed over whose services were more dis tinguished, or who was more entttled to receive such an appointment. (Hear, hear.) Lord HOTHAM said, the right hon. gentleman the Secretary at %Var had stated on a former occasion that officers would not henceforth be considered qualified to hold staff appointments if they had not passed the exami nations at the Staff College ; but that principle was not - adhered to. V With regard to General Grey, he begged to say that he considered him quite qualified and entitled to fill the appointment that had been conferred upon him. (Hear, hear.) Mr. CHILDERS observed that the Australian colonies contributed to the maintenance of the troops which gar risoned them, but those allowances were not so clearly s forth in the estimates as was desirable. Colonel S. KNOX wished to ask the right hon. gentle paaa what was the iii4o cf A generAl cczaumdiPis a brigade of Guards ? The appointment was a now one, and he should be glad to have some information on the subject, though he should be sorry to follow the hon. bonnet tho member for Tavistock in his attack upon the Guards. WILLIAAIS called attention to the great increase in the cost of the staff, and asked the right hon. gentleman to give the committee some explanation. Colonel P. lIERBERT justified the appointment of an officer commanding a brigade as being a most useful and valuable one. Col. NORTH wished to know why "command money," which appeared in the estimates to the amount of £14,000, was not given to cavalry regiments, to which the with holding of it was a matter of great dissatisfaction. Ho complained also of the treatment shown to seven deserving general officers, to whose case he had directs/ attention, and which had been admitted to be well founded. In a country of such wealth as England it was certainly very discreditable. Sir S. NORTHCOTE asked the right hon. gentleman how soon accounts would be produced showing oar financial relations with the Indian Government, and bow it was that the number of men on the effective strength of the army appeared to be below the estimates, when really they were above it. Mr. S. HERBERT, referring to the remark of the hon. member fur Lambeth on the increase of the expenses of the staff, said that a portion of that increase arose from the offi cers on service in China having been placed on a letter footing, and the difference represented their increased pay and allowances at home and abroad. With reference to the general rule for appointments to regiments, he might state that it was to this effect : that an officer was entitled to his regiment either for home or for colonial service. With re spect to the question put to him by the hon. member oppo site, the member for Stamford, he thought the hon. gentle man himself, from his former connexion with the Treasury, was better able to explain those mysterious transactions. The hon. gentleman did not see the estimates for Indian allowances, and for British officers serving in China; but the fact was, that no such estimates were prepared. Those allowances were paid out cf the commissariat chest, and the accounts were sent to India, and thence to the Treasury, after which they were balanced by votes of credit. The sys tem was cumbrous and objectionable, but until recent oc currences he knew nothing of the matter. With regard to the other question of the hon. gentleman, he would only observe that the apparent discrepancy arose from the dis charge of numerous men from India having enabled recruit - ing to go on very briskly of late, so as to more than balance its general slackness during harvest time. The result was, that the army had not for a long time been in so effective a condition. The vote was then agreed to. _ _ _ £387,285 was then proposed for miscellaneous charges. Colonel KNOX moved that the Chairman report pro grew. After some conversation the motion was agreed to. The house resumed. The Nuisance Removal and Diseases Prevention Bill passed through committee. The remaining orders of the day having been disposed of, the house adjourned at a quarter-past one o'clock. A MAN BURNT IN TEXAS. The Buchanan (Texas) correspondent of the New York Tribune writes on the 25th of April : " Allow me a place in your columns for the follow ing recital of a tale of horror, but one of many of which this section of our country is the theatre, but which for obvious reasons are kept out of the pub lic prints, and especially out of those honest and patriotic sheets which would hold them up in their true colours to the detestation of an enlightened people. A young man, whose name and residence I shall suppress for fear of harrowing the feelings of a fond mother and sisters to whom ignorance is bliss, came into this country as a colporteur. He had a valuable stock of books, maps, &c., consisting mainly of bibles and religious works, the standards of the Christian world, histories (Prescott's and others), school books and Atlasses, and, unfortu nately for him, a few copies of the Impending Crisis, and some tracts favouring the cause of freedom. These were accidentally seen by some intense pro slaveryite, who raised the hue•and-cry against the -- Yankee Abolition book pedler.' A mob soon had him in their clutches, and he was at once unmercifully flogged, and ro'bbed of his waggon and its contents. Here, perhaps, the affair would have ended, but just at this time a negro man was brought upon the ground, purporting to have been caught running away from his master with a forged free pass in his pocket. He (the negro) was hence forth lashed to a tree, and, after a most barbarous beating, he was told to say who had given him the pass. The half-dead and terrified negro, glad of a chance to cave himself, and well knowing who his captors wished him to accuse, pointed out the col porteur, adding, in answer to artful questions, that he had received a knife from the pedler, with the advice to take it and cut his way t o freedom, and to burn his master's house over his head, in revenge for the barbarous treatment he had received. Now, of all this there was no proof but the word of the negro, who would have told anything to promire his own release ; and yet it was enough for the in furiated mob, now numbering about 150 owners of slaves, their overseers and sons. After a shorteonsul tation the poor man was delivered into the hands of six of the most furious of the crowd. These rolled the waggon under a tree, covered it over with dry faggots, and over the whole of it poured a barrel of tar ; having first stripped their victim and im mersed him in the same, they passed a rope around his neck and over a limb. Then raising him so that his toes barely touched the top of the combus tible pile, the negro was made to apply the flaming torch, and the tragedy closed in the flames of the hellishly concocted funeral pile, and the shrieks of the agonized victim. In justice to outraged hu manity, I must say that this was witnessed by those who would have had it otherwise, but too few to avail aught against the infuriated mass." LOUNTRY MARKETS . MANCHESTER--MAY 31. The attendance this morning was limited, and the pro ceedings were altogether of a holiday character. Scarcely any business occurred, both buyers and sellers being equally indifferent, and we repeat the quotations of this day so'n night. 'BIRMINGHAM—MAY 31. A fair attendance, but trade dull ; a less supply of wheat to-day, and prices were in favour of the seller. Barley only taken in retail. Oats 6d per qr decline. Beans unaltered. Little demand for peas. MELTON MOWBRAY—Mar 29. There was a moderate show of wheat to-day, with a dull business at the annexed prices :—White wheat, new, 52s Od to 57s Od ; red, 47s Od to 54s per 36 stone ; barley in small supply, at 38s to 44s for malting, and 32s to 35s per qr. for grinding; oats, 28s to 35s Od per 24 stone; beans, 50s to 54s for old; new, 49s per 38 st. PLYMOUTH—MAY 29. The business was slow to-day. Prices for wheat as before; barley scarce, and at late prices ; oats were dear. A thia attendance at market. The quotations are—English whits wheat, 52s to 56s ; red 53s to 54s per qr ; French d o ., 46 a to 46s ; grindi ng barley, 30s to 32s ; oats, 24s to 26s ; and flour, fine, 39s to 40s; seconds, 37s to 38s. EDINBURGH GRAIN—MAY 30. Wheat on the top is Od down average Os 2d down. Barley on the top 2s Od down average Os 3d down. Oats on the top Os 6d down. average Os 6d up. Beans on the top 2s Od up. average Os 3d up. Averages per Imperial quarter. Wheat.... Barley 1 19 0 8-12ths Oats Beans Total Supply and Sales. Wheat . 960 qrs Sold 792 qrs 8ar1ey........ 141 qrs Sold 137 qrs Oats 975 qrs Sold 485 qrs Beans lO5 qrs Sold 70 qrs DERBY SMITHFIELD—MAY 29. There was a smaller supply of fat beasts to-day, with a fair attendance.of buyers; the demand was good, at no advance in prices. Sheep were in less supply, but sales were ready. Fat and store calves were plentiful; sales brisk. Fat pigs in average supply for the season. Beef —Bd to Sid I Veal 7d to Mutton .. Lamb 9d to 10d Rough fat, 4s 9d per stone. Hides, 3id to s;d; calf skins, 7d to Od. 13 llt T H S. Gator2d4o,nll, e7rsbtehrtitpelageeim,eDntu,bolfinal daughter. nor, GROSV o E f N a OR so .— n. On the 31st ult., Lady Constance Girosve- G° th ß e p rif . e — o O f KING.—On the 30th ult., at 8, Lowndes-street, Belgrave. GORDON.—On Lieut.-Colonel . 2 - s C t o h l o u n l e t 1 qure, the wife of Henry King, Esq., of a daughter. MARRIAGES. CALLANDER COVENTRY.— On the 30th ult., at St George's, Hanover-squar e , J o h n A. Burn Callender, Esq., of Preston-hall, Midlothian, to Mary Frederica Dundas, eldest daughter of the-Hon. Henry Coventry. DAY—K ITCHENER.—On the 30th ult., at All Saints', New market,W illiam Henry Day, Esq., M.D., of Newmarket, to Emma. elder daughter of William Cripps Kitchener, Esq., of Newmarket. BAYLEY.—On the 2 DEATII S. 9th ult., at St. Leonard's, William B. Bayley, Esq., for many years a director and at one time chairman 01 the llon. East India Company, aged 79. CHAMBERS. --On the 29th ult., at the Vicarage, Ashbury, the Rev. W m . Chambers, 8.D., Vicar of Ashbury, aged 74. EWING.—On the 28th ult., Mrs. Ewing, relict of William Ewing, Esq., Ardrullen, Dunoon, Argyleshire. TIMBRELL.—On the 30th ult., at Clifton, Captain C. W. Timbrell, Bengal Artillery, aged 38. WARDEN.—On the 30th ult., at the Elms, Southsea, John Warden, Esq., R.N., aged 77. WooLLEY.—On the 30th ult., at 20, Eldon-road, Kensing ton, George Woolley, Esq., M.D., aged 77. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112, Strand, in the Precinct :of the Savoy, in the county o 1d 14 419607, Friday, Am 1, 1860, "" 1