The Sun. — London, England, 1858-05-08 00:00:00

by the late Cabinet. The best provision, I repeat, has I been made to meet the di ffi culties which might arise in the event of any accidental, unforeseen, or unfortunate vacancy occurring in the offi ce of Governor-General. I i . do not fear, Ido not wish t. We could not have done otherwise than we have done. It was impossible for any Government de sirous of seein g the administration of India conducted in a spirit of clemency as well as of justice. desirous of conciliating as well as of subduing . a people, not to express its opinion in the proper terms with respect to an act confiscating the whole proprie tary rights of the people of Oude. (Loud cheers.) Earl GREY—I must point out to your lordships that both the speech of the noble earl who has just sat down and that of the noble earl at the head of the Government have been addressed, not to the question raised by my noble friend as to whether it was proper at this time publicly to declare the severe censure pronounced by her Majesty's Ministers upon the whole policy of Lord Canning in respect to Oude, but, on the con trary, to the totally different question, whether that policy in itself was right or wrong—whether the pro• olamation which had been published was a proper proclamation, and whether the Government have done their duty in expressing their disapproval of it. (Hear, hear.) On the last question, my lords, lam net - able t 3 give any opinion whatever. We have not bef re us the information necessary to enable us to decide whether Lord Canning has done right, or whether he deserves to be censured. (Hear, hear.) I can quite understand, however, that her Majesty s Government, being io possession of far more information than we now have, may possibly have thought fit to disapprove the • proclamation issued by the Governor General, and even to write a very severe despatch in condemnation of what has been done, But, then, is it right that that censure should be publicly proclaimed I . (Cheers.) My lords, I cannot forget that Lord Canning during the time he has held the government of India has shown great moral courage and firmness in maintaining the principles of justice and the policy of clemency at a period when the public mind was highly excited and not disposed to give the consideration which was due to calmer counsels. (il e me,hetiv.) I cannot forget tbat Lord Canning braved the virithent calumny to which he was exposed by ad hering to his duty in this respect amid every discourage ment. Therefore, I say, in the first place, you ought not to believe that Lord Canning has now departed from the principles on which he has hitherto acted until you receive the mo-t conclusive evidence on the subject, until you have had an opportunity of examining all his explanations of the grounds on which he has procee 4 ed, and of making up your minds that Lie has been in error. But, even if you are convinced that he hos done wrong, you are bound to believe that it is an error of judgment only that he has committed. (Cheers from the Minis terial benches.) No man can doubt that it is Lord Canning's desire and anxiety to act in a spirit of justice and humanity ; and if he has done wrong it is his judgment, not his moral sense, that has been at fault. (Hear, hear.) That being so, what., I ask, was the duty of her Majesty's Government ? No doubt, if they thought him in error, fully te explain to him the grounds of that opinion, and to direct him to modify, if requisite, the course he was about to adopt, I have not a word to say against the strongest . instructions which they might have felt a right to issue on the subject But then when that despatch had only just gone out, was it necessary to publish to the whole world that this was the view taken ot his conduct by the Government ? (Hear.) The noble earl opposite sayt, " What were we to do It was very indiscreet to come and ask the Government a question on the subject, but when the question had been put to them they could net help answering it." (Laughter.) My lords, that is quite a new light in whicn to nlaee the duties of a Minister. I can only say that when I bad the honourof sitting on that bench as a Secretary of State I made it a rule i orariably to refuse to answer the simplest question, even though I knew perfectly well how to answer it, if it were put to me without notice. I said, " No, I never will answer you without notice. Your question may be very simple; but if you are once allowed to establish the practice of coming down here and asking me without notice any question you think fit, then the fact ot my declining to answer one when I have answered another will she w that the question is embarrassing." (Hear, and a laugh.) But, nay lords, Igo further. Even suppooiog that her Majesty's Government have had the fullest notic e be f n-ehand, is it to be said that they are under a positive obligation to answer a question ot this kind, though to do so is injurious to the public service ? (Cheers.) I have always understood that a very different course has been pursued. It more than once fell to my lot, when holding the seale of the Crlonial-office, to have que,- tions put to me as to my intentions respecting mat ters upon which I had been in c rrespondence with . the Governors of part:cular colonies. But I never then thought of replying that I disapproved in every sense of what had been done. I was accustomed to say the subject is a difficult one, and cotnniunica lions are still goirg on with regard to it ; we hare not yet been able to form a decision, and it would not be expedient for the nubile service to say more at pre sent. (Hear, hear.) Now, am I to be toll, my lords, that because an indiscreet question is aiiked in the House cf Commons that is an excuse for a Minister to give an indiscreet answer ? (Lend cries of " Hear, hear.") I cos recognise no such excuse—(hear, hear)—for the more indiscreet the question the more di-tinctly is it the duty of a Minister to refuse to answer it. (Hear, hear.) From my experience of both Houses of Parliament I am per suaded that ;f, in answer to such a question in either House of Parliament, her Majesty's Government had said Lord Canning has hitherto deserved our full coefi donee, and we see no reason for withdrawing that con fidence ; the proclamation which has been adverted to is at present the subject of correspondence between us and Lord Canning, acid we Awl take care most attentively to consider the who'e of the circumstances of the case, and see that justice be done, and the house shall in due time be informed as to what has been done—l am per suaded, I say, that if the Government had adopted that course, there would have been no disposition upon the part of either House of Parliament to press the question upon them. (Heir, hear.) I have never in the whole course of my experience seen that course adopted by a Government without being at once admitted by Parlia ment. (Hear.) Why, that very course had been adopted by the present Government in reference to the Cagliari. The Government produced a great portion of the papers connected with that affsir, more, perhaps, than it was spite di*creet to produce, but when they were asked fio. still mere they said we are still in communication with the Government of Naples and Sardinia, and it would not be convenie,t, for the public service at present to produce more papera. That answer was readily acquiesced in by the house, and lam informed it was made on the very carpe night that the i n di scree t answer of which I sow plain was given to the question relating to this procla mation. I conceive that the Government committed a grave f suit in ex,wessing the opinion that they disap proved in every sense o f th e po li cy of Lord Cannin g. (Hear.) The noble earl oppo-it e h as f oun d fault with . my noble friend near me (Earl Granville). He said, " You complain of the despatch being in the hands of persons not members of the Government, when it was yourselves who asked for it ; but the noble earl forgets Vett it was aftor the expressed censure of the G esterninent that my noble frien .1 asked f •r the despatch, and I be lieve that had there heem no expression of an opinion hoslil9 to Lord Canning he would never have a-ked for that deepate'a at ad (Hear ) After an unertalified censure upon the policy of Lord Canning had be-n pointedly announced by the Government, all the friend. , of Lord Canning were very raturally and very properly de irous or seeing the terms is which that censure wes couched and what were the grounds upon which it was founded, and they hoped from an examination of the despa•ch to discover that there was not sufficient ground for any censure at all. I much regret what has oc curred, not on account of Lord Canning, although I cannot but think that the manner in which Lord Can ning filed his high office in a time of extreme difficulty and neder circumstances of a most deeply distreesioe character—(hear)—the manner in which to P erf )rnteiil duties suddenly and unexp ec t e dl y cast upon hi m—(hear) —has entitled him to gr. Ater conside ra ti on than hasr) been shown him. (Hear, hear.) It is not, however, on account of Lord Canning that I so much regret what has occurred ; but it is f n• the sake of India and tf this em pire. (Hear.) I am convinced that it is not for the interest of India, nor of England either, that the govern ment of India should at this moment be placed in fresh bands, or that L,,rd Canning, holding that high office, should have his authority weakened and impaired by a public expression on the part of her Majesty's Govern ment of censure of his policy. I confess, my lords, Viet in all my experience the course which has been adopted by the Government appears to me to be without a precedent, and it is one of which I cannot help ex pressing extreme disapproval. lam utterly at a loss to conceive what grounds can have induced the Govern ment to take such a course. What object could be gained by it ? lam sure that the noble earl possesses too firm a mind to shrink fro;n a temporary obloquy for refasUg to give up Lord Canning. lam sure, also, that he is not actuated by another motive which might almost seem to have prompted such a coarse, but were it not for the high character cf the nobl • earl one might almost imagine that it was so. Circum.tances lead one to believe that in the public mind, which some time back went too far in favour of unsparing and indiscri minate severity, there bad been a react;on, and the gene ral feelicg would be hostile to a policy of extreme severity, and it might be thought that a little temporary popularity might be acquired f ,r a weak Ad ministration by the production of a despatch containing some high sounding words and phrases with regard to principles of justice and humanity. It might almost be "(thought that the cou rs e w hi c h h as been adopted by the ernrnent was dictated by some such motive, but I, y lords, reject such a supposition, and can only account for it ground that it must have resulted from ex .-blatmeable inadvertence. • The netan a i Gt lAn agreed to. THE E NGLISH Viscount lIUNGA CHURCH IN PARIS. his back to the gallery, I\Tcv°N' who, from "king with ss most imperfecay heard, said qaestiongleisfbProvidingteser, 3 neeans of attending Divine that the wcrsbip fur Ea 9,600 pluersft,n.in Peri; amounting as they did to nearly of considerable it ' a t o r t n r , i n e v t e r t o i n of the late importance, and had oc;mpied tihWe Government, who had, believed a n decision upon the subject which the hostile vote of til t Commons prevented their nerrTin g into effect, H e vvi ' e b : f to be informed by the ouble earl Ina 6 tuie.aly B . ,„ t cl e fer Foreign Affairs whether any communication bad been recently made to him on this subject, sad whether her Majesty's Government contemplated the adoption of soy course respecting it. • The Earl of MALMESBURY—I need not R ay that this subject has occupied the attention of the Foreign office for some years. I regret to state that, although I bad some hopes of bringing it t - a sucoeseful issue, I should to entirely deceiving this house and the country, so,d also my ceuottyunen in Paris, vvf.:re I to induce them to believe that the lieute cf Coneineeleis likely to change THE its mind with respect to the grant which was required to purchase this church. I believe the only course left to us is that which we have now taken. I have had the honour and pleasure of communicating with the right rev. prelate (the Bishop of L radon, a we understood) on this subject, and be hopes that, by the efforts of Lord Cowley in Paris and of English residents there, in con junction with those of the right rev. prelate and others in this country, a sum of money will be raised sufficient to enable me to place the church under the Consular Act. (Hear.) Some time, of course, must elapse before this money, not less, I am informed, than 5,0001. will be required—is raised. lam sorry to say that the mort gagee threatened to foreclose the mortgage within a few forataken t s i t m ep e s t t h o e pr days . prevent n t h e e r foreclosure Majesty's G a o n v d e r t n o m p e o n s t t p h o a n v e e e p e a e y m w e h n a t t of w l t l h b e e m t o h r e t graegs result omoney,t the in o efforrtdee ofr t ia lo o a r t we d Cowley and others persons who have interested them elves in the matter. The Bishop of LONDON thought it would be a very grSit misfortune if this place of worshi p , which had been so lo ng connected with the church of England should cease to be a church of England place of worship. (Hear, hear.) Their lordships were probably awar e that there was a large population of poor Eeg lish at Paris—as many as 2,000, and it was cer tainly of great importance that by some means a p'ace of worship should be provided for them. Hitherto there had been no opportunity for these 2,000 persons to worship God according to the church of their fathers. They were unfortunately living in a foreign country, ex posed to foreign influence s, and liable to many difficulties and temptations. If the plan to which be understood her Majesty's ambassador at Paris was favourable could be carried into effect, it was proposed that the whole of the church with the exception of a very few seats should be free to poor Doglish. Thsir lordships were aware that a great number of E glish visited the continent ire sum mer, and that the English population was thereby very much increased during that part of the year. It was not, he thought, too much to say that the sff,irts of Lord Cowley in Paris wouli be seconded by those Englishmen who spent a portion of their years anroad, and increased the English population in Paris to 10,000 in the summer months. He believed there was every prospect of rais ing speedily about 2,0001. in Paris itself. There would remain to be raised 3,0001, which we might hope would be raised by voluntary subscriptions in this country ; and then the church would be opened under the Consular Ac', free t the poor English reaming in Paris. He was most thankful to the noble lord for preventing, by hie diligence, the threatened foreclosure of the mortgage. ViFcount DUNGANNON expressed his satisfaction t the stitcruent which had been made by the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, And the subject dropped. PROTECTION OF FEMALE CHILDREN BILL The Bishop of OXFORD moved the second reading of this bill, the object of which was to extend the pro tection which the liw at present affords to girls between the ages of 10 and 12 to girls between the ages of 10 and 13. The right rev. prelate observed that he asked for the bill because he had brought bebre him a series of cases, which he had himself examined, which showed the great need of such protective leg elation. The age which he wished to include within the provisions of the bill was that at which a great number ~ f young girls quitted workhouses and institutions of that nature, whence they entered ser vice at a very low rate of wages, and there was no doubt that they were exposed at that time to very peculiar temptations. He could, if it were necessary, enter into details which would abundantly establish the neceseity of the measure ; but he was sure that it would recom mend itself to their lordships without any such details he should ointent himself with at once moving the second reading of the bill. _ The bill was read a second time. The Customs Duties (No. 2) Bill, and the Excise Duties Bill went through committee. The Exchequer-bonds (2,000,0001) Bill was read a second time, and the house adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The f4llowing private bills were read a third time : Blackburn Railway, Stokes Bay Railway and Pier, Sufferance Wharves, Pert of London. The Balby and Worksop R •ad Bill was further con. side red and ordered (or a third reading. HID-KENT RAILWAY (CROYDON EXTEN SION) BILL. Earl of MARCH moved that the Rail way (Cr.lyclun Extension) Bi l be withdrawn.--Agreed tn. RAILWAY CANAL BILLS (GROUP 11.) Col. W. PATTEN moved that Mr. Foijmnbe ba dis charged from further attendance on group 11 of Railway and Canal Bills.—Agreed to. THE NAVY. Sir C. NAPIER gave notice of cert lin naval relurns. MR. GLOVER, LATE M.P. FOR BEVERLEY. Mr. W. GRIFFIrEIS gave notice that in the event of the Propsrty Qualification Bill being passed into a law, be should move an humble address to her M.iisty, praying her INlajesty's merciful consideration of the case of the late IVI.P. for Beverley. (Hear, hear.) METROPOLITAN CEVIETERIE3. Mr. H. BERKELEY asked the Secretary of State ft.r the Home Department, what regulations or ins.ruc Mons as to cemeteries or burial grounds in the metropolis had been or were to be issu-d, under the powers of thu Burial Act passed last session? Mr. HARDY, Under-Secretary for the Home De partment, void that none bad been issued. Tney wer._ being prepared under the consideration of the Inspector. of Burial Grounds, and as soou as they were read; they wool.' be carefully considered by her Majesty's GJvern went before they were i-sued. ROYAL ACADENIY, WOOLWICH. Mr, P. O'BRIEN asked the Secretary for War, whe ther any gentlemen had been admitted to the Royal Academy of Woolwich sioca the Ist ,lay of January la t who had not undergone the competitive examination rendered necessary by the warrant promulgated by the late S?cretary of War ? General PEEL said no gentleman had been admitted int) Woolwich Academy except in strict conformity with the principles laid clown in 1855, in reference to competitive examinations. OITIIS' BILL. Lord J. RUSSELL proposed the postponement of the consideration of the Lords' amendment to the Oath' Bill to Monday nexl. He understood there was no ob kction to the motion, and &so that her Majesty's Go vernment would allo 4 , it to take precedecce of the other orders of the day. (Hear, hear.) Mr. DISRAELI said he believed it would be con venient to the house that the 0 tthi' .131 should be taken first on Monday. (EDar, hear.) The motion was agreed to. PROBATE COURT. lOn the motionf7radc:urnrnentJilMonday, Mr. WARREN called the attention of the house to the operation of the Probate Act of last session, with reference to the right of employing barristers-at-law in non - contentious busin ess i n th e P ro b ate C our t , and bar risters and attornies-at-law in the Court of Ad miralty, supposed to have been conferred on the pu'elic in coosiderwiol of the compensation awarded by that att to proctors and .ethera. He entered ;iito the position of proctors and barristers before the passing of the late act, and referred to the cause intro .oiced last session int. the Probate Court permitting men:hers ef the bar to practice in that court, in consi deration of which the house liberally granted compen sa:i:n to Vie proctors for the loss of business lily to ensue. Tee result, however, was that the business cf the court was 011:y thro:vn open in cases of a contention character, which was by far the smallest amount of business that came before the court, He urged that a committee should be appointed to inquire into the mat ter. If it vitro not done be should bring in a bill relative to admitting the bar generally to practise in the Pro • bate Court, and a's a in the Curt of Admiralty. Mr. HADFIELD spke in favour of throwing open •.,IreQe courts to the piton° and appealed to the late Attorney•G , neral to state bow it was the clause in the bill throwing open the Court of Admiralty, a gree d t o i n that house, 'was afterwards thruwo Sir R. BErH ELL a sented to the importance of throwing open these courts. The clause referred to was , truck out of the bill because spec.fic legislation was refused for the Court of Admiralty before it could be thrown open. Mr. COLLIER said he felt certain the house would never have voted compensation to the proctors if the court was not to here been thrown open. Instead of that they found the court was only partially thro en open, and he objected to the construction put upon the de cision of the house by the rules that had been laid down relative to contentious and non-contentious business. Mr. MALINS said he moved the introduction of the compensation clause, and what he then stated would be the effect of this bill had been realised. The business of the proctors, as a body, had been utterly destroyed, and that showed the justice of compensation. He did not think the amount of compensation to be given would be so great as 3 00,000/.. as had been stated, but would be found not to exceed 80,000/., or 100,0001,, as he stated when the clause was under discussion. Sir B. BETHELL—I think that is pretty well. (Laughter.) Mr. MALINS—Yoe, it is. The hon, and learned gentleman said the clause relative to throwing open the Court of Admiralty was struck out of the bill on the suggestion of a learned judge, who considered it would be inoperative unless machinery were first provided to ensure the proper discharge of the busiuese. The subject then dropped. Mr. J. LOCKE called• the attention of the house to the recent appointment of Justices of the Peace for the City of Canterbury ; and asked the Secre'ary cf State for the Homo Department, whether Mr. John Pout had been appointed one of such Justices, and whether be wee the person mentioned in Schedules C and F of th e I Repert of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the existence of corrupt practices at the elec tion of Members to serve in Parliament for that City in the year 1852, an 1 at previous elections. Teti hon. and learned geetleman read the headings of the two schedules—one was " a list of persons who have given money to voters to give their votes" fer the Conservative candidatee, in 1852, and the other was a list of persons who had given money to voters in the election of 1817, to vote for a certain candidate fit Centern.iry, iu b,Lu these schadu!,s Mr. Jo::n ut waa "ticketed," and it was an extraordinary thing that the Lord Chancellor should have appointed a per s ou so ticketed as a justice of the peace. Oely conceive what a s t ate of thins would be prese n t e d i n C an t er bury,ifat a fut ure t i me an election took place th,-re, „ %b Ivoters were bribed? If the briber were brought befor • Mr. John Pout, only conceive his situettoo. (Laughter) The briber in such a case m i g ht o bj eo to tee jurigdiction of Esl2that magis h ' Woe blaule f or 01 a thing trate, any, t he I the Lord Chancellor, who made such appointraeute. 11ei LONDON, SATURDAY E V EATING, SUN, (Mr. J. Locke) condemned political appointments, with reference to the bench. In the list of bribers in 1852 he found the name of Mr. Thomas White Collard, and that gentleman had recently been appointed a ma gistrate. (Hear, hear.) Mr. WALPOLE denied that the Lord Chancellor was actuated by political feelings in making his appointments. The appointment of magistrates for Canterbury Were made on the recommendation of the in habitants. The Lord Chancellor at that time did not know that Mr. Pout's name was in the schedule of the commissioners, but as soon as the Lori Chancellor's at tention was directed to Mr. Pout's name by the notice on the paper ' he referred to th e sc h e d u l es an d then found Mr. Pout's and Mr. Collard's names there. Immediately on making the discovery, the noble and learned lord sent down to Canterbury to say that be should expect these gentlemen to resign. (Cheers.) No answer had been returned when he (Ur. Walpole) entered the house ; but he had every reason to believe the resignations weuhl be sent in. If tha resignations be not sent in, the L -rd Chancellor, he bad no doubt, would take steps to render the administration of justice pure in that borough. The right hon. gentle man defended the conduct of the Lord Chancellor from making political appointments, and read a list of magis trates for a number of beroughe, in which the majority were Liberals, and his appointments had only had a ten dency to bring hack the balance of parties. (Hear.) - Mr. J. BRIGHT said the list just read only went to show that the present Lord Chancellor was following in the footsteps of his predecessor— (cheers, and no, no) —and was endeavouring to balance accounts. (Rear, hear, and laughter.) He condemned the present mode of appointing magistrates. 011 every occasion when there was a change of Ministry there was a scrambled to put men on the bench to balance, as it was called, political parties, and, in consequence, unfit men f ten got on the bench. (Hear, hear.) Mr. B. JOLINSTONE defended the nominations by the Lord Chancellor of magistrates for the city of Can terbury. They had been recommended by the mayor and by himself, to whom they were personally known. He had quite forgotten that the two names mentioned had been named with the commissioners' report. Mr. ROEBUCK adverted to a case where all the names recommended by the Conservative party were adopted by the thea Lord Chancellor, and those recom mended by the town council were pesesd over. Mr. P. O'BRIEN protested against the partial course pursued by the Government. Mr. 0. STANLEY complained of the number of ma gistrates lately created. Mr. HARDY contended that it was high time the unfair preponderance which formerly existed should he put an end to. Mr. WHITESIDE said the old Government had allowed an alderman named Brent to remain on the beach at Canterbury, though he had been mentioned in the same report as the two persons referred to. More than this, he had been made a deputy-lieutenant for the county. Sir W. SOMERVILLE contended that the case of Mr. Brent was a totally different one. Hs bad been :lade a deputy-lieutenant by the late Lord Cowper in 1852 ' • while the commission on the b r ib er y i n Canter bury did not sit till 1853. THE GREAT BELL AND THE STATUE OF RICHARD CCEUR DE LEON. Mr. HANKEY asked the Cnief Commissioner of Works what progress had been mode in the recasting the bell for the cock tower, and when it was probable tnat the clock would be completed. Also, what was the intention of the Government respecting the erection of the statee of Richard Cceur de Lion, by Baron Maro chetti, purchased 1w public subscription, and presented to the nation in 1856. Lord V. TEAPEST called the attention of the First Commissioner of Works to the erection of a statue to Dr. Jenner in Trafalgar-square, which he (the noble ter '•) considered was not an eligible site fer such a statue. He asked the noble lord if the site was selected by him or the right hon. baronet his predecessor in office. Lord ELCHO raid it was desirable that be should know if to r Majesty's Gove-rnment bad laid down any fixed principles fir the erection of statues in the metro polis. Dr. Jenner's statue was in a line with that of S.r C. Napier, and he wished to know if they were to have a line along Trafalgare.quere, and whether it was to le two deep like the Eeg!ise formation,or three deep, l,ke that of the French formation ? (Laughter.) Lord J. MANNERS said he had been informed that the great bell was cast, and would, in all probability, be ready for the Clock Tower in a few days. A vote was to he taken this session for the co upletion of the palace of Wes , rninster, and he had no doubt the Olock Tower would s )on be completed, and the bell fixed in its pro per position, He had every "reason for believing that the new hell possessed a remarkably fine tone. (Hear.) With regard to the statue of Richard Coeur de Lion, he bael been inf ironed that the committee of fine arts and Sir C. Eastlake were unable to agree on a euiteble site in 1856, and nothing further had been done in the matter. He thought with the diversity of opinion that appeared to exist between bon. members in matters of art, that there would be one difficulty in deciding on the suit able spot where to place the statue, agreeable to al par ties. (Hear, hear.) Tue site for Dr. Jenner's statue was graired by the late Government, and when he was in torued of it, and application male for instruction to be given for its erection, he though , . it his duty tocarry out .he arraegeinent that had been entered into. (Hear.) The Government had no general control over the erec i.ru of statues in the metropolis, bt.t they bad over the erection in Trafalgar-square. The erection of Dr. Jen net's statue was, he believed, a part of thi general sehe.me to place three or four eta ues in a line along Tra felgar square. There was to be a statue on the other side cirr,..sponding to that of Jenner's, and one of General Havelock was to be placed on the other side, corres ponding to Clat of S.r C. Napier. (dear.) Sir W. FRASER said as the lets bell was popularly known as " Big Ban," he wished t know if it was the intention of the noble lorl (Lerd J. Manners) to centinue that name to the new bell, or give it a new one ? If the latter, he (Sir W. Fraser) suggested it should be called " Little John." The subket then dropped. EXPENSES OF VOTERS. Mr. Sergeant DEASY called the attention of the house to the present state of the law relating to the payment of the travelling expenses of voters at parliamentary elec tions. He took the occasion to express his regret that his remarks in reference to this subject on a former occasion had been miseo,strued. by Lord Wensleydale. He regret ted exceedin;ly that such an erroneous impression as ep rio hadeer ed to exist should have beereraised by the o b se rvation The matter then dropped. THE CAGLIARI. Mr. KINGLAKE asked the Chancellor of the Exche quer when her Majesty's Government would cause to be presented to the house a copy of the despatch referred to by the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs on Tuesday last, as having been received by her Majesty's Governmeot, stating that the Government of Sardinia cordially accepted the despatch of Lor 1 Malmesbury and were prepared to act in accordance with the suggestion of that despatch, and the spirit of the protocol of the 14th April; and also for a copy of the above despatch of Lord Malmesbury ? He asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to reconsi ler his decision of last night to produ e those papers. On the 14th January he brought forward a motion in reference to this subject, which resulted in the discharge of the two Eng lish engineers. In the course of the Easter recess certain documeats in reference to the subject were laid upon the table of the house, an I amongst them was an extratuli n try despatch of Lo .d Malmosbury, in which he took the singular and unusual course of narrating to the Sardinian Government the particulars of a mistake that had been made at the Chancellery of the Minister of Turin, which lied produced so much astonishment, for no one could have believed that a foreign Minister would barn taken the pains to have reviewed a despatch signed by a Minister of this country, accredited to a foreien court, unless there was a strong detsrmination on the part of the Government to recede from the line of policy in Heated by the mistaken despatch. (Hear, hear.) Accordingly there had been a very general belief in the public mint that it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to abandon Sardinia to her fate, and he was bound to say that the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer last night had tended strongly in his wind to confirm the imeression, and to lead him to believe that he was entitled to deprecate such a policy. ( Hear, hear.) One circemstance, he thought, was patent lo ell--viz., that all the dementia made by Sardinia to the Ne apolitan Government were made by her, upon the insti gation of the British Government, through Lord Clarendon, when be held the seals of the Foreign-office. (Hear, bear.) He (Mr. Kinglake) considered this country was, in conse quence, bound in good faith to afford Serdinia genuine and hearty support, an I finding that opinion was participated in by a large number of hon. members, he put his present motion upon the paper. After alluding to the obstacles that had prevented his bringing it forward on an earlier day, he said the other night the house were led to be lieve that Sardinia had attained her object, and, conse qusatly, that this motion was unnecessary; but on the next day they were assailed with rumours that the state ment referred to the right hon. gentleman the Under Secre tary for Foreign Affairs was ,omewlit overdrawn, to the extent that Sardinia was satisfied with the proposals made to her, and last night that was followed up by the refusal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to present certain papers, on the ground that negotiations were pending, end that their production would be dangerous to the carrying ou of the negotia' ions then going on, notwithstanding that two days before the house was led to believe that all mat te- s of difficulty had been arranged. (Hear.) In consequence of that statement the debate impending was intercepted, arid as other papers in connection with the transaction had been laid upon the table of the house, he considered it was the duty of her Majesty's Government to complete them, Itv consenting to the production of copies of the despatches he risked for. He was at least entitled to know which of the two answers to which he had referred wore correct. If the negotiations had ended in the satisfactory manner stated on a former occasion by the hon. gentleman the Under Secretary of state for Foreign Affairs, then he should be happy to withdraw his motion ; but if other wise, as he was led to believe by the refusal of the Chan csllor of the Exchequer, he considered himself bound to press his motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER congratu late I the hon. gentleman and the house that he had at bast ma le his sleech on Sardinia. (Laughter.) And when the w . ah h i e e v renl Sardinianai correct o hon. he gentleman as k ed whose version was to be accepted -- ing f cvi r n i a e re , n ss o l i on t ti l the t iT hhee n b d e7gr positionS.e d e c t r oo e tfsaary affairstho tr h he i so m p ed s c e i t l d- f had not observe any i ncons i stency between the two sta,teneen' and was prepared to maintain that theywere exactly in accordance with each other. (Rear.) The . the house was a simple but a very serious qone.ueticiriiii friend the Under Secretary was perfectly justified in the s!a'eineet made by him the other night. What was that statement ? That Sardinia had accepted the propositio n made by his noble friend at the head of th e F ore i gn De pertinent, in the despatch to Count C.:.vc or. v' c., 91,f, this v e xed question should be referred to arbitration, under the wise an i beneficent protocol of the conference at Paris. That was the statement made by his hon. friend, who world thought it be received with satisfaction. But the horse should remember this, that having agreed with Sar st nia ai to the course to be taken, it was not to be supposed that all the difficulties were solved, although there was f r tunately a complete understanding betw e e n Sardinia and this country as to the course to be pursued. Let the house • reffsct for one moment on the importance of the questions remaining for consideration, The question of indemnity and the question of mediation were both involved in the negotiations which were about to commence, and no two subjects of diplomacy were mere delicate or difficult. If the house had no confidence in the management of this matter by the Ministers, let it sty so distinctly, and the Government would then understand the position in which they were placed. (Hear.) But he asserted that the papers alluded to could not be given without serious detriment to the public service; and he, for one, would not incur the re ' sponsibiiity arising from their production. (Hear.) He would ask the house whether whaa had already taken place with respect to the misunderstandarg between Sardinia and Naples, and the relations of this country with the affair, had been such as to disentitle the Government to the con fidence of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) On their accession to office they found the matter in a complicated and difficult position. He believed they had treated those affairs with prudence, and not without success. Whatever they had attempted toaccomplish they had succeeded in doing. They were prepared to the utmost of their ability, and with every necessary devotion of time and thought to the business, to bring it to a complete and satisfactory conclusion. But their labours would be seriously interfered with if the House of Commons should refuse to extend to them that confidence to which they were entitled, and he must again decline to produce the papers which had been asked far by the hon. gentleman. (Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL said, that if in the opinion of the right hon. gentleman these papers could not be produced without detriment to the public service, it would be impos sible for his hen. and learned friend to press his motion. (Hear.) He did not think the hens, had any reason to be dissatisfied with the course which Government had hitherto taken on the subject. (Hear, hear.) In dealing with this affair two great objects ought to be kept in view ; one of them was not to desert Sardinia, but to endeavour to ob tain for her that redress to which she was in equity and in jt rs was to oe mightsettle scarcely of less consequence, without bri ng i ng a b ou t h os tiliti es v themselves all over It a l y. (H ear. ) I t wi t c s entitled; el e the matter extend ma the t t er other, appeared to him that the course which the Government had pursued was a judicious one, and he trusted their efforts would be successful. (Heger.) There was another point to which he wished to direct the attentionof the Government. The engineers had been liberated from the hardships and cruelties to which they had been subjected; but while the contemplated mediation and areitratiou were g oing on what was to become of the crew of the Cagliari, who were sub jected to the same kind of treatment which the engineers had formerly received ? (Hear.) He did not think it con sistent with justice to allow these men to be detained in prison during the negotiations, which might extend over a very long period. He bad heard that an intention existed to libertve the crew, and should be glad if the Government could give any satisfactory information on the subject. (Hear, hear.) Before sitting down he wished to este the right hon. gentleman the Home Secretary when the com mission with regard to the question would be appointed ? Mr. WALPOLE replied that it would be appointed very speedily. Mr. S. FITZGERALD said he was afraid he could not give the noble lord any satisfactory ; i.Je, sea ie. en the su'a ject to which he had referred. The efforts of this country to assist Sardinia were not limited to the mere question of the ship, but extended also to the crew. Beyond that assurance he was unable to give the noble lord any information. The hon. member for Bridport (Mr. Kinglake) seemed entirely to have misunderstood the object with which he addressed a few words to the house on Tues lay night, It was not his intention to make any announcement of the complete contents of the despatch, or to create the impression that ho was doing so. The hon. member had a notice on the paper with reference to the Cagliari. That question re quired to be treated with the greatest delicacy, and was one of the gravest that could arise, for it affected not only this country but the general peace of Europe. He was, therefore, anxious to make a statement which he believed would be so far satisfactory as to induce the hon. gentle. man not to press his motion on the attention of the house ; and accordingly stated that the proposition of his noble friend (Lord Malmesbary) had satisfied the Sardinian Government. The hon. gentleman had alluded to rumours which had repelled him on the following morning which tended to show the statemsnt to belincorrect. From whence Pie hon. gentleman obtained that information it was diffi cult to say. Such rumours certainly did not come from an English source, and he regretted that statements should be made by persons who were not in a situation as British subjects in the house or elsewhere to establish their allega tions. (Hear.) With respect to the conclusion which the hon. gentleman had drawn from the despatch, he could only say that nothing was further from the intentions of the Government, and that neither now nor at any past time, nor, he hoped, at any future time, would they take any stop whatever to justify the impression that they would willingly abandon an ally in the hour of danger. Mr. GLADSTONE rejoiced that the conversation which had taken place had cleared up the misunderstanding which had previously existed, for he had certainly laboured tinder the same impression as the hon. and learned gentle man (Hr. Kinglake) with respect to the rem arks of the hon. Under Secretary. He was glad to hear that the Go vernment had taken into their con , ideration the case of the unfortunate crew of the Cagliari, and that their co-opera tion extended to the men as well as to the ship. In relation to that part of the negotiation, he trusted they would not fail to bear in mind the imp rtance of the element of time, because by delay and protraction any com'nunica tions relating to the crew were a voluntary ruling of the lE cl o t or i e dg e , t ta i hn o e n i .m a e g L a a i b n eea s the efforts rr t hretahre.)ci and city of quite views o agreed of withSd ar theiui e nobleand of London in his remarks with , reference to the course which the government had pier sued. But he thought the despatch of Lord Maluaesbury did not do full justice to the views of her Majesty's Go vernment. On reading the despatch of Lord Malrnesbury explaining the error of Mr. Ecekine, which ha .l led to con , siderable inaccuracy in the farm of instruction, he was led to infer that Lord Melmesbury did not intend to actin the spirit of the letter of Sir J. Hudson. The error was a grio vousand unhappy one, but he trusted that the merits and exemplary conduct of a faithful public servant would not be forgotten. (11.• a-.) The result of an examination of the document had led him (Ur. Gladstone) to this conclusion, that the obligation of England to §ardiuia did not depend upon an erroneously expressed note, but on the letter of Lord Clarendon, dated toe 9th of I)ac. an t the letter of Sir J. Hudson, dat e d th e s t h o f J an. The obligation arose out of the note of Lord Clarendon, and not out of any error on the part of Mr. Erskine, or any oversight on the pert of hcittwit S othoh i vam r iatsrisigin J reumatoc. . ievrtafitl H eotlhwurpoef: u arorrattl t isihn i oacsil:na this i . shou lt ld ja,,s)s u. vv ,hl ae be groundwork n b r oughtl jll st ee beforeot o f t thehe the government v vo e oc r er n le e na u gn : o a i tt t nayn way a t y h b e e r therefore, d i in p m o a n k a i s n making a t k h i i n s g statement,ext exception the noise u L ta ht t A ea H r Es createdt ( xo w oc h ,hi o e qto w ube a y s a ru indistinctly lh of members h heard i fromi n conse quence th the house) y t hthat whenhe th agreede presentith the found this question in a go vernment came into office th'ey difficult position. (Hear, hear.) He congratulated them an the success they bad heretofore obtained in behalf of our two countrymen. But he could not understand why the government should not have gone further. All we knew was that her Majesty's government had offered what they called their good offices to the Sardinian govern ment, and that the question was t be referred to a foreign power. Tire documents before them showed that these negotiations had been con !acted in the most unsatisfactory manner possible. Mr. CIIAWFORD observed that they had Lord Malm2s bury's despatch, entering into the details of the error com mitted by Mr. Erskine at Turin, aunt they had the digni fied and proper remonstrance of the Sar tinier, Minister, but they were not informed whether any reply had been made to the Sardinian Minister. He thought the house ought to know whether her Majesty's Government dis sented from the observations of the Sardinian Minister or not. Then they bad all read the debate in the Sardinian Chamber on the Daforesta Bill, in which England was charged with deserting Sardinia, on which the house ought to have some explanations from her Majesty's Government. Ho hoped that her Majesty's Government would cordially co-operate with the Sardinian Geverament in this matter. VACCINATION IN p,ELSND. Mr. lIONSELL said he found that by the report of the Irish Poor Law Commissioners, while there were 84.000 children vac finated in Ireland in the year 1.56, there were only 47,0 A vaceinattra in 1857. Great danger to human life might aiise from the present state of the law on this subject, an I he would therefore ask the Chief Secretary fcr Ireland whether he proposed to introduce a bill to c irry out the recommendation of the commissioners on this subject? Lord NAAS replied that the attention of the Govern ment had been called to this important subject. He had had some communication with the commiss!oneri, and he hoped to be able in the course of the session to introduce a bill on the subject. The motion that the house on its rising do adjourn tint; Monday was then put and agreed to. STAMP Miff . ON DRAFTS BILL. The house then went into committee on this bill. On clause 1, Mr. J. ff. GURNEY said the stamp would take effect from the passing of the bill. He thought that some ct-r -tain date should be fixed. A fortnight would be a r,.ason n,b!e time for the bankers to give notice to their customers bad to have stamped cheques prepared. He moved an amendment to the effect that the bill should come into ope ration a fortnight, after it had received the r )val assent The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he found on inquiry that the stamps would be ready by the 21th inst., and he proposed that .that date should be in serted. M.. GURNEY said that would meet his views. and withdrew his amendment, and that of the Chaucellor of the Exchequer was agreed to. Mr. MOFFAT moved to insert the words limiting tha opt. ttion of the act to sums exceeding two pounds. Mr. CHEATHAM and Mr. BRISCOE supported the amend ment. Mr. G. A.. HAMILTON opposed it, and said the object of the bill was to remove all exemptions. The house was cleared for a division, but none took place, and the amendment was negatived. The clause Was then agreed O. The CLIAIRUAII was then proceeding to put clause 2, when, Mr. BRADY, who had given notice of an amendment to clause I, said he did not hear the clause put, and he did not thiek there were ten members in the house who did. Mr. J. FAVART asked the Chancellor of the Eecheepter whether he had taken into consideration the suggestion that a penny Postage stamp might be 1180' ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the proposition was a very plausible one, but be found on in quiry it would create so much confusion th st it was im possible to agree to it. Mr. KIRK said a general opinion prevailed out of doors that the tax would n o t b e so pro d uc tive as the ChanceLor of the Exelequ:r esti ma t e d , as a groa t many persons would ava' I themselves of thi s s t ain to save the receipt stomp . The CHANCELLOR o f th e EXCHEQUER said, no doubt the bill would c ause some di m i n ution in the revenue from receipt stamps, b u t th at h a d been taken into cal culation. p Mr. BRADY asked if he might be allowed to move an addition to clause 1? The CHAIRMAN Certainly not ; that clause has been passed. Mr. GROGAN observed that the tax would bear hardly on depositors in B.l.viro.s banks. Ile thought thrra should be an exemption their favour. Mr. G. A. HAMILTGN said, by the General Savings Bonk Act, an exemption was created in respect to deposits in savings banks; and by the Friendly Societ;es Act posts:nip duty was leviable on she operations of flintily societies. Mr. WILSON said it was quite clear that, after this bill was passed. there would be no more drawing of cheques to bxercr, but they woul I all he drawn to order, and the p b.rty in whose favour they were drawn must e ndorse tueni Another h effect mekrasktwah o ae f tys hntreheoaetpl expressed really u l p l i w eecsr o lsee u eaed l r d ziebn b rry e "pht t teh. h e a bil t . all drafts would in future be drawn payable on demand, and not at sight. sbaarevi h tBi l ti r rg . : C htb o e ! was afraid that as the exemption in favour of i ta l la,e would rdtoiuonb surelyt o s f m a i f g eb h we t words. • Mr. MALINS thought that stamped cheques would not lead to any na ateri it decrease in the number of stamped re ceipts, and for as obvious reason. Few persons who•paid MAY 8, 1858. away money would choose to rely upon such an unsatis factory proof as the cheque ; and when, therefore, they put a stamp upon a draft they would, generally speaking, require the person in whose favour it was drawn to con tribute another penny to the revenue. (Hear, bear.) The hon. gentleman (Ur. Cox) need not be under doubt as to the exemption of the savings banks. Colonel SYKES said the debate had led him to repeat the suggestion he had already made, namely, that a penny stamp should be put upon all tradesmen's bills above 108. That plan would obviate the many difficulties that would arise, and it would, moreover, yield a far greater sum than the present proposal. After some further discussion the clause was agreed to. Mr. GURNEY brought up the following• additional clause :—" Provided always, that it shall be lawful for any banker, or person acting as a banker, to whom a draft or order is presented for payment, if such draft or order requires to be stamped with a penny stamp, and has not been so stamped, to affix an adhesive stamp of one penny to such draft or order, and having affixed and duly cancelled such stamp, then to'pay such draft or order ; and that it shall in like manner be lawful for any person to whom any such unstarnped draft or order may be tendered to affix thereto an adhesive penny stamp, and, after having duly cancelled the came, to receive such draft or order in payment, and to negotiate and circulate the same." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the clause was so opposed to the principle upon which the whole law relating to stamps was founded—namely, that every document which ought to be stamped should have the stamp at once placed upon it—and it would likewise open so wide a door to invasion, that he felt it his duty- to resist the proposal. (Hear, hear.) The clause was then negatived without a division. In answer to 11r. KINNAIRD, Mr. 11151ILTON said that adhesive stamps might be used, though of course not postage stamps. From inquiries he had made at the Inland Revenue-office, he had no doubt that there would be an ample supply of impressed stamps ready before the 24th. (Hear, bear.) The preamble was then agreed to and the house re sumed. THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA. The house went again into committee on resolution 2, of which the following words hat only been carried, viz., " That for this purpose it is expedient to provide that her Majesty"—the remainder of the resolution being as fol lows—" by one of her principal Secretaries of State, shall have and perform all the powers and duties relating to the government and revenues of India which are or may be now exercised and performed by the East India Company, or by the Court of Directors or Court of Proprietors of the said company, either alone or with the approbation of the Commissioners for the Affairs of India." Mr. RICH moved as an amendment to leave out "one of her principal Secretaries of State, and insert " a pre sident of council for th e governmen t of India. The, hon. gentleman after expressing his satisfaction at the course the Government had taken in abandoning their bill. and proceeding by yes dution, said he did not consider it of any import moo whether the new Indian Minister was called the President of a Beard of Indian Commissioners or the President of an Indian Council ; but he thought there was a wide distinction betwe, n such an officer and a Secretary of State There were hon. gentlemen who argued that if there was a Secretary of State there ought to be no coun cil at all, or at all events a council so much in subordina tion to the secretary that it would either be a mere non entity or a political screen. (Hear.) For his own part, he thought the multiplication of secretaryshipe of state was a dangerous precedent to follow ; and the examples they already had before them were not such as to invite imitation Mr. M. MILNE'S attached to the motion more import ance than the hon. gentleman himself seemed to do. He desired that his support of the amendment should imply the strongest possible expression of his opinion, that though the East India Company in its integrity was destroyed, the indepseident government by which its power and pros perity had been so long sustained should not be lost sight of in making their new arrangements. (Cheers.) As the company was to be destroyed, all they who believed it to have been a good government could do was to assert in every way the principle of having real power vested in the council, without offering any factions opposition to the resolutions of the bill. Believing that a president of the council might conduct the affairs of India with the same authority as a secretary of state, and be relieved by his council, he should vote in favour of the amendment, hop ing that very soon the house would have before it full in formation as to tho powers and duties of the council. Lord STANLEY said that it would no doubt be a wise precaution, on the part of the committee, to refuse to assent to assent to any resolution without knowing abso lutely what it was to which the resolution might pledge them. It bad been said by one who bad looked a good deal into the subject that however large a programme might be laid before Parliament, the greater part of the debate would turn upon one point, the constitution and powers of the council. (Hear, hear.) That prediction had been so far verified ; and they had been rally discussing the ques tion of the constitution of the council upon a resolution which dealt only with the title which the Parliamentary Minister for Luna was to bear. He might remind the com mittee that the responsibility of the Minister was the sub ject of a separate resolution. The constitution and powers of the council were the subject of the fourth resolution; and though they did not bear very closely upon one another he thought it would be wise to endeavour to separate those questions, and to deal with them when the proper time came. (Hear, bear.) The committee would pledge itself to nothing as to the power to be vested in the Minister for India by merely passing this resolution as it stood. There was nothing in the name of Secretary of State which ne cessarily defined with peculiar accuracy the , uties of that Minister. The Secretary of State for gar bore the title ; yet his relations with the Horse Guards were somewhat peculiar. He did not hold that up as a body for initiation (Laud cries of " Hear, hear.") He merely pointed to it to show that the title of Secretary of State did not define, with strict and minute accuracy, the peculiar functions to be performed by the pers .ns holding that title. The mover of the amendment had objected to the multiplication of offices ; but in this case the objection did not apply. Ho had also referred to the government of the colonies by Secretaries of State, and said that the colonies had been governed very badly. (Hear.) He (Lord Stanley) was not there to defend the Colonial Government of 'England in times past ; no doubt it had been marked by many and great faults ; but most of those faults had originated in an error which at the prorent time we were not very likely to fell into —the error of attempting to govern too ,much in England, and to leave too little power an 1 responsibility to the loc it authorities. But this was, in point of fact, not an objection to the title which the Indian Minister was to boar, but to the nature of the office he was to fill. It was an objection to the whole principle of both bills—to the whole course of po'icy which that house, by so large a majority, had sanctioned and approved—and not to this particular resolution. It was said that if they created a Secretary of State, they would make himself so far ab solute that the council would have nothing to do bet give him advice when he as,ied for it. Th a t was entirely a question for the fourth resolution, which they should dis cuss inure appropriately when they came to it. (Hear.) He did not attach so much importance to the title of the Minister as the hon. gentleman who had supported the a mendment, but he should ask the house to pass the reso lution in its present form. (Hear, hear.) Mr. V. SMITH agreed that it would bo well to reserve the discussion on the council until they came to the fourth resolution ; and perhaps the proposal that there should be a President of the Council raised the question whether there should be a council at all. But the proposal to ap point a Secretary of State for India did carry with it the impression that he would have the sole power. In discuss ing this point they were embarking on a constitutional question. A Secretary of State must take the commands Of her Majesty ; and if be was afterwards to consult a council there might be some inconvenience in that. (Hear.) Thou there was an objectiou to multiplying Secretaries of State, who went out of offics with the Government ; and it seas most desirable that the Indian Minister should be more permanently retained than any other office. He thought it would be beat to adopt the resolution in the Era' first proposed, containing the words " by a respon sible Minister of the Crown." (Hear.) That would pro b.,bly meet all the difficulties th it ha i been raised. Sr J. PAKINGTON said, there would be no objection to this sugg estion. There were difficulties con nec t e d w i th either bill. The functions of the Indian Minister would bo more those of a Secretary of State than a President of a Council. It bad been suggested that there would be a difficulty in the Minister taking the pleasu re o f th e C rown and afterwards consulting his council ; but there was really no practical difficulty ire the matter. The Govern ment would accept the suggestion, and substitute the words " responsibl e Minister o f the Crown." Sir G. C. LEWIS thought it would be more convenient not now to determine the powers of the council, but merely discuss the title which the minister should bear. By a secretary of state he understood one to whom the u p - r intendeuce of a great department of the public busi nesss had been assigned; all the rest was left under the im mediate power of the Crown, to be decided by instructions to the Secretary of State. There was no instance where a Secretary of State had anything like a council. Tue Secre tary for War and tho Horse Guards hid been referred to; but the cowman ler-in-chief was entirely subject to the directions of the War Mieist ‘r. The house had us difficulty in deciding this question, because they did not know what would be the powers of the council ; there would be a con stitutional anomaly in req driug that a secretary of state shoal I obtain the sanction of a majority of his councie Ho doubted whether the bill would pass the house without giving the council some control over the affairs of India. (Hear.) The sixth resolution required the appointments to be made with the concurrence of the council ; thatmust mean the majority of the council if it meant anything. There would be one case, at all events, in w hi c h t h e Minis- . ter must obtain the sanction of his council. It might be in the power of the house to altar the constitutional cha racter of the office of Secretary of State ' • but it was a mat ter for serious consideration whether they should do so. He hoped the Government, having consented to the adop tion of a neutral term in this resolution, would give the matter their attention before the question of the council came before the house, (Hear.) Mr. E. ELLICE s yid it appeared to him that we were legislating in the dark with regard to India, and that very few men indeed understood the question. He should, however, throw no obstacles in the war of the very ano malous proceedings in wh ch they had embarked, in which three great parties were suapoiticg three diametrically opposite priuciples. (Rear, hear.) Was there no differ enee then, between a council nominated by the crown and an elective council ? (Hear.) He was sure thee, the noble lord at the heal of the Government would sustain his view, and not Cu resent to be the lacquey of any opinions but his own. There was, then, no difference between his two noble friends on the subject of nomination. (He hear ) His plen would be to make the now machinery uitror as little as possible from the old, taking possession in the name of the crown, but making as little cbanee as they could do with. If they could not frame an independent council, let them take - the one they had ; but, for Go is s ike, let them not take a false step, which might shako their Indien empire to its foundation. (Load cheers.) Lord J. RUSSELL said that the committee bad no doubt listened with much attention and instruction to the speech of the right bon. gentleman, He was not going to attempt to answer that speech, but one thing must have struck every hon. member who had heard it, and that was, that one-half of the speech had been uttered too late and the other half too soon ; that a great part would have been excellent on the motion of the hon. member for Hunting don, and the rest would have suited admirably with the amendment of the noble lord the member for Durham. But to ask the house suddenly, during a discussion on the second res elution, to r.,ver=e all that it had done , mud on v. ry threshold of its taste to throw up its bands in despair, would be a mean dastardly line of conduct, which he was sure the committee would never consent to. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. member bad gone through the proposal of the noble lord, the member for Tiverton, and also the reso lution whi c h h e (L or d J. Russell) had laid on the table, but it would be premature then to go into the whole sub jct. The great advantage of resolutions was, that each might be discussed separately, and therefo re he could not consent to go with his right hon. friend into a re-argument of a question which had already been, he bored, finally de- tided by the house. The first resolution transferring the powers of the East India Company to the crown had been passed, and with its settlement was disposed of many of the ar g uments of his right b on . f r i e n u 's speech His right hon friend said that it would be impmsiblo for a sect etary of state with any council to carry on the government of India. If that argu.nent were to be listened to, it would apply to the fifteen or twenty crown colonies all with dif ferent constitutions, all of which had to be looked after by a secretary of state. Some of these colonies had Dutch, some had Spanish, and some had French laws, while some more had the ancient colonial constitutions. To all these matters a secretary of state had to attend, andif ho were to draw a picture of these difficulties it would be said that it was impossible f r a secretary of state to manage them. He believed that the administration of India would be a still more simple duty, and that a secre tary of state would have no difficulty in getting through it. His right hon. friend had spoken severely of our old colonial administration, but he (Lord J. Russell) would remind the house that in former times the West Indians had slavery, arid that it would have been impossible to give a constitution to a country in which the p-rsons who were to govern were masters, and the persons to be go verned slaves. (Hear, hear.) Neither could they have given a constituti on to Australia, when its whole popula tion consisted of housebreakers and pickpockets. They could hardly think of having a House of Lords consisting of housebreakers, or of Commons with pickpockets for its members. (A laugh.) That could not be thought of for a moment, and therefore the Colonial-office had to wait until time and experience had put the colonists in a position to govern themselves. (Hear, bear.) A great deal of what had been done had had to wait for a fitting time, and be sides the resent colonial system was only a revival of the old colonial system of the seventeenth century. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the particular resolution which was the real question before the house, what they had to decide was whether a Minister of the Crown should govern India with or without a council, as the house might de cide. He was not very anxious about the distinction be tween president anti secretary, but was inclined in that matter to favour the proposal of the Government.. But there was one question of the deepest importance, and that wan the character and constitution of the council which was to assist in governing India. Now what he wanted to know was, did his right hon. friend, when speaking of as independent council, mean a council that was to have the sole power of governing India or not ? (Hear, hear.) The bill of the present Government and the bill of his noble friend the member for Tiverton said, let them be a council to advise —and the bill of his noble friend gave the power to the president to act alone—independent of the council where the secret committee would have acted. But the secret committee had the power to deal with matters of the greatest importance connected with the government of India. Was the proposed mini-ter to have the power, for instance, to take a step which might result in a war, entail ing an expense upon the country of four or five millions? He asked, was the power to be placed in the minister of the Crown, or the council ? If in the minister of the crown, then they would have the responsibility of the minister of the crown to that house and to the country, and he might be called to account if ha should be wanting in prudence, vigour, or capacity. But if they had a council, be it ap pointed for six years, eight years, cr, as he proposed, during good behaviour, and left to the council the decision of those great points of policy on which the welfare and safety of India. was involved, then he contended they would still be keeping up the double government, and the sham of re sponsibility,' as it was called, would remain. The minister of the crown would nominally govern, but this council, who could not be removed except for some act amounting almost to a crime, would practically be the government, and a government without responsibility. Thus if there was misconduct all the evils of it would be suffered, while the remedy which the house had in the case of a responsi ble minister would be lost. In agreeing to the present resolution he conceived that he was agreeing to a resolu tion that was entirely in concurrence with the opinions of both the late and the present government thet whatever might be the details hereafter to be determined upon, that there should be a minister of state who was to be respon sible for the government of India, and who was to be supreme. If they transferred the responsibility of the government to the council or to the majority of the coun cil, not only would they destroy the present form of govern ment for India, but they made the new government less efficient than that which now existed; for though nomin ally the government was in the hands of the Court of Directors, every step taken by Parliament since 1784 was to transfer it to the Board of Control with whom the cen tral governing power now remains. Sir H, VERNEY, who spoke amid loud and impatient calls for a division, remarked that the more the question was ventilated and discussed, the more must the opinion gain groun t that it would be impossible to give the power to the minister, and at the same time preserve the inde pendent character of the Council. Mr. DISRAELI observed that the resolution merely asked the house to confirm the principle that the govern ment of India having been transferred from the East India, Company to the Crown, all the functions of the administra• tion Indian affairs should be concentrated in a minister of state. As to whether he should be called a secretary of state or a president (though ho thought the constitutional argument was in favour of the furiner title), it was not so important a question as that it should be made a subject of controversy at the present stage of the proceedings. The object of the resolution was rather to express the general scope of the opinion the house entertained upon the parti cular point, whether the government should be pieced in the hands of a minister of state— the name by which that minister was to be designate?, being merely a question of detail, might be settled afterwards. He would sugge't to omit the brat words of the resolution, and substitute the word. " by one of the responsible ministers of the Crown." If this were adopted, it might be as well perhaps to omit the third resolution for the present also. Mr. FORTESCUE said the change would have an effect on which they might congratulate themselves that it would reduce the number os the resolutions they had to encounter by one. He thought, however, the question as to whether the minister was to ba a secretary of state or a preei ient was not of the slight importance that it had been consi dered by somesewho had spoken to-night. Lord PALMERSTON said his hon. friend, seemed to think that there was something inconsistent in his voting for the motion after he had introduced a bill which wo u ld have established a council. But there was no reason why they should not vote for having a responsible Minister of the Crown by this resolution, and afterwards vote for any council they pleased. If the Chancellor of the Exche quer ha I not withdrawn the third resolution for the reasons he had stated, he should have opposed it for a rea son inherent in itself. 119 proposed that the Minister should govern in the same manner as the Secretaries of State. Now, if there was to be a council, the Minister would not govern in the same manner. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that if the noble lord had had occasion to bring forward that ob jection, he should have shown, certainly to his own satis faction, and be hoped to that of the house, that it was per fectly invalid. ( Laughter. ) Mr. T. BARING trusted that his hon. friend the mem ber fur Richmond would not press his amendment to a division. At the came time, in passing the resolution the committee must be on its guard against conceding too much. It was evident that from the passing of that resolution the whole local government of India must be altered, and it behoved them therefore to take care that too much power was not given to the new President of the Council. Mr. RICH then withdrew his amendment, and the ' second resolution was agreed to. Mr. WALPOLE then moved the third resolution, which was as follows : —" That in order to assist the Minister of the Crown in the discharge of his duties, it is expedient that a council shall be appointed of not lees than le or more than 18 members." Sir E. COLEBROOKE moved that the chairman report progress. It was impossible that a resolution of such im portance could be adequately debated at that hour of the night. (Loud cries of Go on.) The C HANCE uott of the EXCHEQUER coincided in the view taken by the hon. member, that on the whole they were not likely to make much progress by entering upon the discussion at that hour. Mr. E. ELLICE said the fact was the third clause con stituted too whole question in dispute; and therefore to corninence discussing it at that hour was absurd. Sir E. PERRY thought it rather suspicious that these motions for adjournment should every night proceed from gentlemen who wore opposed to all legislation for India (Hear.) He thought the right hon. gentleman opposite ought to resist the motion for reporting progress. Mr. ROEBUCK was certainly not opposed to legisla tion during the present session. At the same time if they desired to have a consecutive and well-directed discussion on the clause he thought they ought to adjourn the debate to another day--(hear)—and the more especially as before any of the numerous amendments on the paper, regarding the composition of the council came on to be discussed, he should like to raise the preliminary ono, whether ahere ought to be a council at all. Lord PALMERSTON quite agreed with the hon. an I learned gentleman, and thought that they would most facilitate pi ogress by adjourning the discussion to the earliest possible hour on Monday. Lerd J. RUSSELL joined in the proposal for reporting progress, but thought they ought first to settle the order in which they sheuld proceed. It seemed to him to be the moat convenient-couree to discuss the several amendments on the act—the composition and numbers of the council seriatim, an I, after disposing of them, to enter upon the discusiden of the hon, member for Sheffield's amendment namely, whether there should be a council at all. Mr. ROEBUCK would consent to the suggestion of the noble lord, although he thought the more logical course would be to discuss his amendment first. (Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER acknow ledged that he felt die appointed at their not having made more progress that evening. As to resuming the discus sion ea ly on Monday he was afraid that other subjects would interfere and prevent that. He would suggest, then, as their only alternative, that some of the intervening days between Monday and Friday should be given up for the pared to move his ge m ne r r . al E c o on E si l3 d u eri oK tio s n of aiti t h he es ow r ou ol lii ntion bep s. re amendment on Tuesday that the discussion be renewed. Lord R. CECIL, who had a motion on the paper for Tues dayeums t p lv h should against thisattackrivate nie wb o on „trh.b ecalled the rights vate , members. to give up their opportunities for the sako of discussing the pyiuciples of a measure which every one knew was not ititeniled to become law this year. (Hear, hear.) The motion for reporting progress was then agreed to. CHELSEA HOSPITAL BI (PURCHASE OF LANDS) L. This bill was read a third time and passed. FRANCHISE PRISONS BILL. This bill also was road a Ilirdt inae at.d passed. SUPPLY OF GAS FOR THE METROPOLIS. Ou the motion of Mr. BYNG a select committee was ordered to be appointed for inquiry into en 1 reportin as to the existing arrangements for the supply of ga s to the metropolis. The other orders were disposed of, and the house ad journed at a quarter past 12 o'clock. FNGLAND AND LIBERTY.— M. Loni; Blanc having writlea his new be o'r, "Ifi.torieal Reveletions," in English rather than Frew:), thus justifies h mstlf in doing so :—" It - a no small honour to htr (Englanc) that her language should be, at this moment, the verna cular of libt•rty, the only ian4usge in which freemen of every nation can interchange ideas a,d print their thoughts with any chance of finding a puqic all .wed to read them." 11.1.1.1Ey OUTDONE', — ..Mona t a herd of remount I tlat were brought t Kirke°, near Poonab, way one most obstreperou s little nag. A tall six feat front rank man of the 3 DniZOOU Guards—.a splendid specimen of the "old plunger" Vittor's and Albuera section boy s —stepped up to the fractious little brute, awl withcut much ado tucked the struggling creasure under his brawny arm, and, amidst the cheers arid laughter of the whole corps, carried him round the parade ground, and set the astonished animal down es hale as evnr Mr. Rarey could have made him. NAVAL AND MILITARY INTELLIGENCE. Marlborough, 131, s rew, Cap'. Lord Frederick Kerr, flag of Vice-Admiral Arthur Fanahawe, will haul alongside the Portsmouth Dockyard jetty on Monday next, to receive a newly-invented screw propeller, by Messrs. Penn and Son, with which she will be fitted, and proceed to the measured mile at Stokes Bay, to test her speed, at the next spring tides._ _ - Duke of Wellington, 131, screw, Captain Henry Eyres, C. 8., will haul out of the steam-basin dock into Portsmouth Harbour, on Friday next, the 16th inst. The screw steamship Orion, 91, went from Hamo aze into the Channel on Thursday, to try her en gines. They gave satisfaction. - The screw steamship Brunswick, 80, Captain Erasmus Ocamaney, left Plymouth Sound for Hamoaze on Wednesday. Her Majesty's ship Ilasiingß, 60 guns, which had for some time been stationed at Liverpool as a Coastguard ship, sailed on Thursday for a month's cruise along the coast, and will visit the isle of Man, Holyhead, and other ports within her dis trict, returning to 11,z moorings in the Mersey. She is accompanied by the Dapper, one of the gun no its lately appointed to that port. - It is said to ne in contemplation to remove the Hastings alto gether from Liverpool, and replace her with one of the new 90 or 100 gun screw lino•of-battle ships. Fox, old 42, frigate, convected to a screw, for transport service, has been brought down the har bour at Portsmouth, and is to have her sea stores and fittings taken out of her. She was hastily con verted during the Russian war for the purpose of cony -ying boilers and machinery to the Baltic. The paddlewheel steam sloop Gorgon, 6, Com mander Dayman, from Deptford, accompanied by The Clinker, Porpoise, and Quail gunboats, arrived in Plymouth Sound on Tuesday evening, and on Wednesday afternoon went up Hamoaze. Her Majesty's ships Banshee and Vivid, de spatched to Ostend in the service of the young Queen of Portugal and suite, have returned to Woolwich and taken up their moorings off the dockyard. Two tug steamers, with artillerymen front Ports mouth, arrived at Plymouth on Thursday. The following additionst i t ,e establishment of Devonport and Keyham Yards are to take place forth alth by hiring the following numbers : Blockmakers, 2 ; painters, 10 ; millwrights , 6 ; joiners, 10 : smiths, 30 ; plumbers, 6 ; locksmith, 1 ; pi , ch heater, 1 ; labourers, 130. A letura relative to the co Ainuous service men ,nd boys serving in her Majesty's navy was printed yesterday, at the in,ratice of Sir Charles Napier, from which it appears that the number of cduti nuous service men serving in the fleet on the Ist of January, 1857, was 17,432 • the number discharged from -he service during the year 1857, .ncluding 604 discharged by survey, was 2,973; the number serving in the fleet on the Ist of January, 1858, was 15,694 ; and the number nter,d into service since the Ist of January, 1858, ep to the 30 h of April, 1858 (as per engagements received to that date), was 530 ; the number of boys servi , g in the fleet on the Ist of January, 1857, was 7,520 ; the number of boys discharged f om the service during the year 1857 was 865 ; the number of boys serving in the fleet on the Ist of Janu,,ry, 1858, was 5,854. Tue 12th company of Royal Enginee r ; ' under the command of Captain Montague Stopfurd Whitmore, have received orders to be held in rea diness to embark for the Cape of Good Hope, where they will relieve the Sappers and Miners now at that station. The 12th company numbers 120 men. The recent presentation of the model gun and its equipment to the Emperor of the French is about to be succeeded by the presentation to the French nation of a most interesting relic, which has been deposited in the Royal repository at Wool wich since the year 1819—namely, the identical hearse which served to convey the body of the Imperial exile of St. Helena to the tomb. It was yesterday removed by order of Government to the workshops of the Royal carriage department of the arsenal, in order to its complete renovation. It consists of the lower portion of the carriage used by Napoleon in his solitary rambles over the rugged roads of the island, and which at his death was converted into his funeral bier. Some portions of the black paint have disappeared in certain places, exhibiting the original yellow. Although strict caution has been almost invariably observed on the visit of sti angers to the repository, the velvet hang ings of this interesting object have been ruthlessly lopped and portions of the woodwork hacked away. Major-General Peel, Secretary at War, has ordered the carriage to be restored to its former condition, and in that state to be presented to the French nation. The encampment of troops at Freshwater East for the purpose of practice with the Enfield rifle has teen ordered. The ball and shell practice of the Naval Coast Volunteers has commenced on board the Violet gunboat, tender to the Etgle, Coast guard ship at Pembroke Dockyard. For this pur pose the Violet proceedsome distance out to sea off mouth of the hall) mr. The signal stations down Milford Haven are to be continued until the annual inspection by the Lords of the Admiralty. Mr. Eaos Vaughan, second-class inspector has be , n pr,nnoted to the first-class inspectorship, vice Mr. George Allen, deceased. The contract for the paintings and alterations at Pembroke has been obtained by Mr. George Thomas, the amount being about. 7,0001. yearly. THE MILITIA, The Dumfaieshire Militia, on return from Alder s Lot, were disembodied at Dumfries on Saturday last. The Aberdeensire Militia are on their way froth Dublin to Aberd-en, where they will be.dis embodied forthwith. The Tyrone Militia, stationed ' ar, Hamilton and Paisley, are utader orders to re- , turn to Ireland for disembodiment, are to be suc cee led at klu-se two garrisons by the new battalion of the 21st Fusiliers. Country Markets. LIVERPOOL. MAY 7. This day's market was moderately attended, and a small business in wl►e et, at easier prices. A good strong article in fl ntr, either in barrels or sacks, had more favour shown to it than for some weeks past. Indian corn advaaced about 6d to 9d por qr., with a good demand, and the best yellow and white were not purchasable under 34e 9d to 35s 3d per 48J1bs. Oats and barley firm in price. Oatmeal 6d per load dearer, but with a curbed sale. No other change. WAKEFIELD—MAT 7. There was a fair supply of wheat, and prices were ra her lower than on last Friday, with a moderate demand. Beans were is dearer, but barley was without change. AVERAGICB FOR TOR WEEK ENDING MAY 3, 1858, Wheat 3187 quarters, at 43s 9id Barley 204 „ 36s 76d Oats 25 ~ 30s Od Beans Peas . 5 OS 45s 01 EXETER—MAT 7. CORN.—Wheat, 5s 6,1 to 5s 9d ; barley, 4s to 4s 3d ; grinding do., O Od to Os Od. O a t s, 2 s 6d to 2s 9d . Beans, Os to 0 Od. Peas, 00s Od to 00s Od. FLou u. =Fine, 31s Od to 32s Od; seconds, 293 Od to 30s Od per sack. CATTLE. —There was a fair supply of bullocks. Best beef, from Os Od to 103 Od per score • inferior, 7s to 8 s p er score ; fat calv es , 5d t o SD. per lb ; barrenners, Os Od to Os Od. per score ; cows and calve*, 121. to 181. us ; butchers' calves, Od to 7d per lb., rearing calves —s to s each; sheep, ewes and lambs, 21. 5s to 21. 15s per couple; ewes. Od to Old; wethers, 7d —d; lambs, 73d to 0 'per lb. Pigs, large size, —s. to —s; second size, —s to —s ; slips. --s to —s ; suckers, —s to —s. Rough fat, 44d-per lb. Pork carcases from 7s Od to 8s 6d per score. BRISTOL SUGAR—MAT 7. The market remains active, and were it not that the samples in the brokers ran short a good amount of !minors would be done. Between 300 and 400 hhds. of Barbadoes have been taken at is per cwt. advance on the rates ob• tainable last week. In the refined market there is a fair amount of trade doing, and several large parcels have been taken at a proportionately improved price. There is no stock of rum in first hands, and business quiet. BIRTHS. limos On the 31 inst., at 9, Marlborough-road, St. John's wood, Mrs. R. Hodson of a son. SPERLING—On the 6th i st., at 0, Hyd e -p ar k-t errace , the wife of Hen r y G. W. Sperling, Esq., of a daughter. WOOD —On the 6th inst., at Colney House, Hert3, the wife of the Rev, R. Ilountford Wood, M.A., of a son. MARRIAGES. C RAFTER —ALLEN—On the 4th inst., at Stone Church, Kent, George Crafter, Esq., of 10, Doughty-street, London, to Mary Anne, second daughter of William Allen, Esq., the Co.ir Lodge, Stone. LAMOTTE—DIOBY —On the 6th inst., at St. Geo-ge's, Hanover square, the Rev. G. Creipigny Lamotte, rector of Denton, Kent, to Caroline Jennetta, only surviving child of Rear- Admiral Digby, K.C.B. DEATHS. BANNISTER—On the 6th inst., at 13, Jphn-street, Bedford row, Charles G. Bannister, Esq., aged 62. COTTLE —0 n the 6th hist., at Kirkstall-lodge, Clapham-park, Rolvert Cottle, Esq., aged 83. CUNDY —On the sth inst., at 44, Pall-mall, John Cundy, aged 37. COOPER—On the 19th March, in the Dilkoosha, from a bullet wound in the hr ast, reccivAl on the 11th at the siege of Lucknow, Lovick E. Cooper, aged 20, Ensign 2d Battalion Rifle Brigade, eldest son of Lovick Cooper, vicar of E►np ingham, county of Rutland. KING--On the 6th inst., at Upper Grosvenor-street, Goer gia.of • wifeßYton King, Esq., M . P . LAVIGNE —On the sth inst., at 30, Belgrave - square, Camino Jane, the wife of Sir Richard Lavigne, Bart. LANONORE- On the sth inst , at 4'o, Finsbury-square, after 11 few days' illness, Win. Langmoro, M.D., aged 74. LONDON Printed and Published by MURDO YOU-N. * of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Officer No• 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in th, coanlY of Middlesex, Saturlay, May 1858.