The Sun. — London, England, 1860-05-01 00:00:00

considered and ordered with the Lords' amendments, was ar third reading. The following bills were considered and ordered for third reading :—Brompton, Chatham, Gillingham, &c., Water ; Denbigh, Ruthyin, and Corwen Railway; Edinburgh Railway Station Access ; Hereford, Hay, and Brecon Railway ; London and South-Western and Bristol and Exeter Railway Companies ; Salisbury and Yeovil Rail way ; Stockport, Disley, and Whaley-bridge Railway ; Winibome Minster and Blandford Forum Road Croydon Gas ; Grunty Fen Drainage and Improvement ; Railway Clearing House (Ireland) : and Spalding Water. The Cork and Limerick Direct Railway and Dover Gas Bills were read a second time. PETITIONS. Several petitions were presented in favour of legalising marriage with a deceased wife's sister ; in favour of and against the Wine Licences Bill ; against the Medical Re lief Bill ; from Ireland, in favour of an equitable adjust ment of the relations between landlord and tenant in that country, &c. LEAVE OF ABSENCE. On the motion of Mr. Wu' IVSIDE leave of absence was granted to Sir 11. Cairns, on the ground of ill health. BUSINESS OF TIIE HOUSE. Lord PALMERSTON said that he had to appeal to the house on a matter connected with the despatch of public business. It was usual for public business not to.be proceeded with until half-past four o'clock; and he would suggest to the consideration of hon. members that in future business should be commenced at quarter past four o'clock, the effect of which would most probably be a saving of half an hour in the dispatch of public business. (Laughter.) Mr. DISRAELI had no objection to the proposed alte ration, provided Ministers of the Crown were in their place at a quarter past four o'clock. THE FRANCHISE. Mr. WARNER gave notice that he would move that the franchise should be extended to £4 occupations, but that persons possessing that qualification should be limited to the right of voting for only two members. Mr. E. JAMES gave notice that he would move an alte ration in the Reform Bill relative to the rate paying clauses. SAVINGS BANKS BILL. Mr. S. ESTCOITRT wished to know whether Govern ment would postpone this bill until after Whitsuntide, and then fix a day for its further progress. Mr. LAING said that, in the absence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he could not on the part of the Govern • ment undertake to postpone the bill until after Whitsun tide, but he would undertake to promise that it would not be brought forward for a fortnight. MANAGEMENT OF THE GOVERNMENT DOCKYARDS. Lord PROBY, the Comptroller of the Royal Household, appeared at the bar, and read her Majesty's most gracious reply to the address from the house for a commission to in quire into the management of the Government dockyards, whieh stated that her Majesty had directed such commis sion to issue. COUPONS. Mr. THOMPSON asked the Chancellor of the Exche quer whether coupons issued by railway companies for the payment of their debenture interest are rendered liable to the stamp duty of one penny by the new Stamp Act; or whether, in the opinion of the law officers of the Crown, the wording of that act carries out the assurance given to this house by him, on the 26th of March last, namely, that " the resolution would not, in the slightest degree, affect tie question raised with regard to the liability of coupons, or dividend warrants, to pay the penny tax, and that when the bill was drawn, the form of the clause would make this clear ?" Mr. LAING said that it wag not the intention of the Go • 'vernment to impose a tax on coupons, and he was informed by the authorities of the Inland Revenue that no charge would be made with reference to the same. THE WINE DUTIES. Lord HENRY THYNNE asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether there was any foundation for the report that the final reduction of the wine duties is to take effect in August or September; or whether he intended to adhere to his original proposal that sach reduction shall take effect on the let day of January, 1861 ? Mr. LAING said that he could not give an answer to the question, and trusted that the hon. gentleman would repeat it when his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exche• quer was present. TIIE BRONZE COINAGE. Mr. HOPWOOD asked the Chancellor of the Exche quer when the new bronze coinage would be issued? Mr. LAING said that some delay had unavoidably oc curred, but that the bronze coinage would most probably be issued in about two months. THE ROYAL PARKS. Mr. ALCOCK asked the Chief Commissioner of Works whether he would have any objection to allow a certain umber of Thames watermen to have boats on the Serpen tine, and other waters in the royal parks, during the sum mer months ? Mr. COWPER was understood to say that the Thames watermen, to a certain number, would obtain permission to have boats on the Serpentine and other parks if they applied for it. The water on the Victoria Park was too shallow for the purpose of boats being rased on it; and he assured the honourable member that there was every desire on the part of the department of the executive which he represented to afford the public all the enjoyment possible in respect to the parks. GOVERNMENT MEASURES. In reply to Sir S. NORTMCOTB, Mr. LAING said that the Customs' Bill would be pro ceeded with this evening, but no other Government mea sure would be submitted to the house until to-morrow. REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL. ADJOURNED DEBATE. Mr. BENTINCK resumed the adjourned debate. The hon member said that the Government Reform Bill was founded on data which were most inaccurate, and that the speech of the halt. member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) was unsound in principle and incorrect in fact. For in stance, as regarded Rochdale, he (Mr. Bentinck) had re ceived a letter from a gentleman intimately acquainted with that borough, stating that the Government returns gave no idea of what would be the effect of the Reform Bill in that borough, The £lO rating there most inadequately de scribed the character of the class that would be enfran chised by the operation of the measure. The writer further stated that the real increase of constituency in Rochdale, instead of 17,040, as stated by the Government returns, would be 3,480. (Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) He contended that the inevitable tendency of the bill would be to throw an overwhelming amount of po litical power into the hands of the lower class, who, from the accident of their position, could not be considered as the most eligible depositories of such vast political influeace. (Hear t hear.) The writer to whom he had previously alluded had requested him to ask Mr. Bright how it was that that hen. member had so much more confi dence in the working classes than the working classes had in him (sir. Bright), and how it was that nearly all of those emplbyed in manufactories were on strike in consequerua of the reduction of their wages. (Hear, hear, and laugh ter.) , He denied that the measure, viewed by either side w the hottm could be considered as a great Reform Bill; bu that, on-the contrary, it was abortive for good, though ii might produce evil, Ile strongly complained of the prin ciple and provisions of the bill, that railways and large towns were considered as the chief representatives of the property of the country, whereas the rural districts were entitled to that description. Having com mented at some further length on what he considered the unconstitutional character of the measure, he concluded by asserting that it resulted from the political necessities of the noble lord (Lord J. Russell), and that it was framed in a party spirit. Mr. WA LTER wished, before there was a chance of the house being counted out—(a laugh)—to vindicate himself from the charge of having any ulterior views in supporting this bill. He assured the house that he had none. He be lieved that the consequences of this bill, if it passed, would very greatly disappoint the expectations both of those who opposed and those who supported it. He could almost ap • ply to it the words, of the-prophet of old—" Woe un to them, for they cannot do good ; neither is it in. them to do evil." As an independent member, acknowledging no political leader, but depending on himself alone for his political guid • ance, he hoped the house would bear with him while he stated his views of the position of the country with respect to this measure. One question must have already occurred to everybody who had thought on this subject—is reform necessary? He should say, certainly not on account of any crying gr i evanc e which afflicted th e wor ki ng c l ass as a class, or could possibly be remedied by legislation on this subject. (" Hear," from the Opposition.) There was a time when those classes were exposed to great grievances, when they had an undue share of taxation, and penal laws were ex tremely oppressive. At the time af the Reform Bill of 1832, they were led to expect great material and social advant ages from the passing of that act. Those expectations bad been in a great measure fulfilled, partly in consequence of legislation, and partly from. causes with which' legislation had had no connexion - whatever. But he would defy any one at this moment to lay his hands on one single grievance which afflicted the lower class as a clan. (Loud' cheers from the Opposition.) The hon. member for Birmingharit' had been engaged for a long period in endeavouring to, persuade the lower classes that they paid an inordinate. and unjust proportion of the taxation of the country ;' end in a speech delivered in December last he had challenged those who doubted it to disprove the assertion that more than'one-half the taxation of the country was paid by the working classes. That question had been recently in vestigated ; and, in an article in the Edinburgh. Re. view, it was proved by most accurate and careful calcu- lationa that the working classes, in reality, bore a smaller proportion of taxation than was paid by other classes. Of direct taxes they paid nothing, of local 'taxes next to thing, and of indirect taxes (absut £12,000,000) it had been, proved, as clearly as such a thing could be proved, that they .j contributed - about £24,000,000, or a pound a head of the unrepresented daises.: In:reconsidering quertions of ttixa-• tion, that house was always disposed, and, he trusted, always would be, rather fo incline- the balance in favour of trae• • working classes than-against them. But Mr. Bright and these who held the same vicws. should remember thet.if direct taxation were extended much fartherft nmst be ee t e nded much lower; a nd tho - workingman would not thank .26,..Bright for sending him the income tax collector, twice a year to levy a sovereign from him in a lump ; he had rather continue paying indirect taxes in the form in which they now existed. (Hear.) They might take 99 out of every 100 of the working men, and it would be found that their grievances amounted substantially to this—" A little less work, a little more pay, and a glass of beer to drink your honour's health." (Great cheering from the Opposition.) Some thought that a large infusion of the working-class element would improve the constitution of tl at house ; and if they could obtain the services of superior men who had risen from the ranks, or were connected with them, it might improve that house as a representative body. But he was quite sure that if they had a very largo infusion from the ranks great loss of time would be the result. The house would be called upon to settle questions of wages, to me - diate between employers and employed, and to deal with such questions as had been raised by the journeymen bakers about nightwork. Those were questions which they all knew could not be settled by legislation, and the discus sion of which would only waste time. What, then, were the reasons for which reform was necessary ? The prin cipal ones were these : It was agreed on all hands that it was time to remove some of those anomalies which were confessed to exist in the distribution of seats throughout the country. Most gentlemen on both sides of the house agreed that some redistribution of seats was necessary. They were all agreed that it was quite possible to extend the franchise to a large section of the working classes without injuring the constitution. Whether this should be done by lowering the general standard of the franchise, as proposed in this bill, or, as proposed in the bill of Mr. Disraeli, to include the working classes by means of fancy franchises, was a question rather of detail than of principle. The object to be attained in each case was precisely the same. A third and more important reason why reform was wanted was, that expectations had been held out for a great number of years that such a measure would be passed. It was a dangerous thing to keep a piece of meat dangling before a dog's nose, even if the animal were not hungry, and it should require considerable efforts to poke him from a state of somnolency. (Immense cheering from the Op position.) Equally dangerous was it to keep holding out the bait of reform to the working classes, and continually withdrawing it. (Renewed Opposition cheers.) Another question was, whether, if reform were granted, this was a fit season to grant it. A dissolution had been alluded to'; but it did not appear to him to follow, as a matter of course, that a dissolution should immediately ensue on the passing of this measure. On the contrary, he thought it would be a very great crime if Government, merely for the sake of collecting such additional intelligence as could be gained from the votes of householders between £6 and £lO, should dissolve Parliament for that. He saw no reason why the present Parliament should not go on until some cause in the ;nature of things should arise to require its dissolution. 'The next question was, if reform were wanted, what was re form ? A question much more easily asked than answered. Was it a pulling to pieces and a reconstructing of the whole machine, or merely taking out the decayed parts and put ting in new? Mr. Wilson, the chairman of a meeting at Manchester, had said that since the last Reform Bill everything had progressed ; the political machine was the only thing that had remained stationary. (Hear.) The logic of the hon. gentleman was—because all this has been done by this machinery, therefore pull it to pieces. (Hear, hear.) .He was an owner of machinery of various kinds, and if any one came to him and said, "It is very true that up to a certain period your business went on indif ferently, but you have introduced new and greatly improved Machinery, by which your business has been increased, your fortune has been made, and you are going on swim mingly : but people out of doors think the time has come when your machinery has been tinkered, and I advise you to let me pull it to pieces, and introduce changes of which no human being can tell the result"—(hear)—should he not suspect that the person who gave him such advice had some job of his own to promote f (Hear, hear.) Should he not say, " It is very trite that all machinery is subject to wear and tear, and that it requires occasionally to be overlooked and overhauled, but the arguments you use for pulling it to pieces are prima facie arguments for keeping it together,and should rather lead me to be very cautious how I meddle with an engine that works so well ?" (Hear, hear.) He was not contending that there should be no improvement, and that the political machine, like the mechanical and organised living being, did not require to be maintained and restored. Progress —or rather, change—was the condition of human affairs, and he alone was the true statesman who could apply the remedies which experience and time showed to be ne cessary to the existing state of things, with the certainty of producing a future amount of good. (Hear, hear.) He now came to the bill before the house. It was the child of the noble lord's old age, and although it was said he viewed it with fatherly, or even grandfatherly affection, it struck him, from the way in which he treated• it, that he looked upon it with inconceivable indifference. (Laughter.) The principle of the bill appeared to be the representation of minorities and the extension of the franchise. He quite concurred in that part of the bill which gave a third mem ber to certain constituencies. The object was to accomplish by that means the representation of minorities. A great deal had been written and spoken on this subject. Any one who had read the pamphlets of Mr. Mill and Mr. Hare on this subject would see, that of all the impracticable and im possible schemes ever devised none contained so many absurdities as this. Whatever abstract arguments might be used in support of any such scheme, he believed that any proposition which aimed at the representation of mino - rities, except in a very indirect way, would not be adopted or listened to in that house. lie believed the scheme of the noble lord, which aimed at accomplishing this by indirect means, was likely to be useful and beneficial in the present state of things. With regard to the extension of the fran chise, he did not propose to discuss the mode in which rat ing was to be applied to the question of the franchise. As far as he was concerned, it mattered very little whether 100,000 more or less were to be added to the constituent body. lie believed it would make no practical difference whatever. In his opinion, the real question to be determined was the degree in which those classes whom they proposed to enfranchise were fit by their intelligence, their position, and their respectability for the privilege. (Opposition cheers.) A good deal had been said about distrust of the working classes. So far from entertaining any distrust or alarm of the working classes, he declared he could not go to bed in peace if he possessed any such feeling. (Hear, hear.) But the lower classes in all ages aid countries were liable in periods :of excitement to be misled and humbugged by popular orators. If he wanted to apply another standard be sides that of his own knowledge by which to judge on this matter ho should turn to the leaders of the working classes in that house. What was theestimate which the hon. mem ber for Birmingham, a distinguished member of that house who could compliment Chancellors of the Exchequer— (laughter)—and who was an acknowledged leader of the people outside of the house, in those places where they were accustomed to look for an expression of the opinions of the working class, formed of the people? The hon ourable gentleman, as he told them the other night, was a member of a sect of religion which was distinguished for possessing the essence of Christianity, and therefore ;he hon. gentleman must not be supposed to have spoken without a due sense of responsibility and angelic charity. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The portrait of the hon. gentleman as painted by himself might be found in the last ❑umber of the National Review. (Laughter.) But be (Mr. Walter) referred to the speech which he delivered in Man chester on the 11th February, at a meeting of the Lanca shire Reform Union. The hon. gentleman here quoted from Bright's speech, in which he said that the French treaty was received with great coldness by the classes from whom the people's representatives were chosen, and that if the treaty brought about such commercial intercourse be tween France and England as existed between England and the United States, it would not be in the power of prime ministers, foreign secretaries, or diplomatists, to produce disunion or to bring about war between the two countries. These classes complained of the treaty because it cut down the tree in which the unclean birds were lodged. (Laughter.) The hon. gentleman, it appeared, had been reading his Virgil, and he compared those gentlemen to the obscene harpies, who eat up the food which had been prepared for ,F,neas and his companions. (Laughter.) Ho would leave those gentlemen to speak for themselves. But in a speech which the hon. gentleman delivered in the present month he went a great deal further, and made a charge which ought hardly to be passed by in that house. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman, after repeating the statement in his former speech, said that the real objection to the treaty had been concealed, namely that it would promote confidence and peace between the two countries, and do away with that dis trust and jealousy which would lead to war and taxation, of which the higher classes had all the patronage. (Hear.) Was that a sentiment which any hon. gentleman would cheer ? (Hear, hear.) Were the gentlemen who occupied those benches to be told deliberately that they opposed this treaty because they considered that the apostle of free trade might have been over-reached to some extent— (opposition cheers)—and outwitted by the apostle of an nexation—(cheers)—that they opposed this treaty because they were opposed to the greatest blessing that could befall mankind. (Hear, hear.) Were they to be told that they • were actuated by some diabolical motives as that for the ' ry*beggarly pittance of.the patronage, of the taxes they were opposed to peace, the greatest of all blessings ? (Hear, ' 'When the hon. gentleman entered that house he clrOmed :to be a statesman, but the hon. gentleman could not • plartho great statesman and the "gteat demagogue at once. (Hear.) • •He should not trouble, the kOuhe by going into the social views held by the hon. gentleman, nor with his ideas about the tenure of land.. They knew he could hardly tireathe inGlasgow because the land belonged to the gentry. .(Hear, hear.) He did not, as he said before, distrust the working . classes, but he distrusted' those who used such language as he had quoted : (Hear.) He was as little of an alarmist as any man living; he believed that property lud life were not subject to alarrain a country where truth, and honour prevailed; but he should rather ALIO 'coder the government bf a seecmd - Cromweil than iticifer a Government where such sentiments and opini ons as th ose of the hon. m em b er f ur Birmingham .PriVaileil. (Cheers.) It was painful to him to be, obliyeA to speak in such 'a way of an hon member of that .i I 2I I MI .*l l 9 tad - a seat in it • fir so many years, and Who was so great, an adept in the process of parliarsentarr,self-elefenoe.• • But he knew his , renmrk,s were just, and he believed they were not uncalled - -- for on an occasion like that. • He hacj only one farther re mark to make. The motile' 16fd spoke feelingly the other night of the period _since the passing of -the first It eform Bill, and he referred to the various measures of improve ment and amelioration which had taken place since then. The noble lord enjoyed the singular happiness of living to witness the growth, maturity, and success of that great measure, but it could be hardly expected, in the course of nature, that he could bear his testimony to the success of the measure he was about to launch into the world. This bill would affect, not the noble lord, but them and their pos terity; but the reputation of the noble lord was dear to every member of that house. He therefore trusted that they would do their best in committee so to mend and improve the bill as to send it into the world in such a shape that it would not be a disgrace but an honour to the noble lord— not a curse but a blessing to the country. Lord J. MANNERS said the noble lord had the other night enumerated various beneficial measures which had passed since the Reform Bill, and the noble lord would lead the house to conclude that those measures had been a con sequence of the Reform Act. With quite as much justice and logic he (Lord J. Manners) might attribute the destruc tion of West Indian property to the terrible rebellion in India, the Russian war, the Chartist insurrection, and the Irish mortality and exodus, to the measure of 1832. (Hear.) But even if these beneficial effects followed from the Re form Act, IN hat was the conclusion which a man of good sense would draw from the fact ? Was it not this ? In Heaven's name, leave well alone. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the present bill, it was evident from all that they had heard, that no reliance could be placed on the figures on which the noble lord based the borough franchise. The noble lord said that the £8 occupation would add between 60,000 and 70,000 voters to the constituencies. But he was not content with that. He went on to say that the £7 oc cupation would add 122,000, but he was not content with that. He then came to the £6 franchise, which, be said, would add 194,000 to the constituency, and that was the addition which gave satisfaction to the noble lord. But no sooner had the noble lord stated his opinion than the hon. member for Birmingham said it would not add more than 162,000, whilst the Secretary of State for the Home Depart ment said it would only add 160,000. On the other hand, the hon. member for Marylebone, who first gave them facts and figures, said the £6 franchise would add 500,000 to the constituency. Had any gentleman on the other side of the house said that the figures suggested by the hon. and learned member for Marylebone were incorrect or not ? Why the whole question was perfectly at sea. (Hear, hear.) The Government had been obliged by the force of argument to consent to the appointment of a select committee in the other House of Parliament, by which the figures would be sifted ; and until they saw the report of that committee he confessed it seemed to him most idle to rely upon these figures. (Hear.) The noble lord in the course of his speech gave indications that he thought the figures of the hon. and learned member for Marylebone might not be so inaccurate as his colleague stated them to be, for he (Lord J. Man ners) noticed with some surprise that the noble lord said that whatever might be the case with regard to the larger boroughs, at any rate in the boroughs where the population was below 20,000 the £6 voters would not swamp the ex isting constituencies, but would maintain their character. (Hear.) The member for ➢irmingham said that the small boroughs would be merely an extension of the county re , presentation. But taking all boroughs with a population under 20,000 they would find that the voters added by this bill would net make any serious change in the existing con stituencies. He (Lord J. Manners) would take six of the largest and six of the smallest boroughs, which he assumed to be a very fair specimen of what would be the effect of the bill of the noble lord. He would take first the borough of Shrewsbury, whioh at present had a constituency of 1,404; to that the noble lord proposed to add 834, but for reasons assigned by so many hen. gentlemen he (Lord J. Manners) thought it far more likely the addition made to that consti tuency would be 1,043. He would next take Colchester, a borough which he had the honour to be intimately asso ciated with for some years. That borough had a constitu ency of 1,257; according to the noble lord 573 would be added, but according to more probable calculations it would be 716. King's Lynn had a constituency of 1,119 ; the noble lord proposed to add 665 to it, but according to more probable calculations the addition would be 831. White haven had a constituency of 571 ; the noble lord proposed to add 474 ; according to mire probable calculations the inerease would be 592, or more than the whole constituency at present. (Hear, hear.) Kidderminster had a consti tuency of 487 ; according to the noble lord the addition would be 1,173 ; according to more probable calculations it would be 1,473. Canterbury had a constituency of 1,564 ; the noble lord proposed to add 482 ; according to more probable calculations the addition would be 615. He would then take the six smallest boroughs. Totness had a con stituency of 341; the noble lord proposed to add 47, but the addition would be more probably 59. He would make a present then of Totness to the noble lord, for he believed Totness would remain the same Whig fief that it was at present. (Hear.) The next borough was Lyme Regis, which had a constituency of 265 ; the noble lord proposed to add 139, but more probably it would be 174. Ashburton had a constituency of 193 ; the noble lord proposed to add 71, but it would be more probably 89. Honiton had 287 ; the noble lord proposed to add 46, but it would more pro bably be 58 ; and Arundel had a constituency of 196, to which the noble lord proposed to add 80, but it would more probably be 100. Take whatever figures they pleased, assume the noble lord to be right —assume the Home Secre tary to be right—assume the member for Birmingham or the member for Marylebone to be right—he (Lord J. Manners) asked the house, was there not a preliminary question which ought to be settled before they went into those figures in a way that would perplex and puzzle them, and that question was, what were the evils and defects of the present system, and what were the remedies fit and applicable for their removal ? Was it alleged that under the present system the populations of the various cities and boroughs had not their sentiments and opinions fairly repre sented in that house ? They had not heard any such allega tion. Take, for example, the great populations of the Tower Hamlets and Liverpool, would any one assert that the mem. bors for those places did not adequately represent the pre • willing opinions and views of those important constituen cies ? The complaint against the present system was this ; not that it did not adequately and justly give a fair repre sentation of the preponderating opinions of the constituen cies, but that when they came low down in the scale of the present constituency there they found the poor voter liable to corrupting influences, and their committees and commis sions had made revelations of so startling a nature that they had become a scandal which ought by all means to be put an end to as speedily as possible. But then, he asked, was this bill of the noble lord calculated to diminish the influence of bribery and corruption among the lower class of voters ? None whatever. On the contrary, its effect would be to double, treble, and, in some instances, quadruple the area upon which these corrupting influences would be hereafter exercised. Allusion had been made to the bill of last year. No one could deny that that bill, by the various franchises which it proposed to confer, was in tended to bring within the pale of the constitution fresh and healthy elemee is from the property, intelligence, and industry of the country, which probably aye and would have had a most beneficial effect in deterring the lower orders of voters from being corrupted. as they were at present. But the bill of the noble lord was entirely silent on this subject, and he could not believe it was a correct exponent of the mature views of the Government on this question. Well, then, as the bill of last year / sought to raise the working man to the level of the franchise, so the direct and only effect of the bill of the noble lord was to lower the franchise to the level of bribery and corruption. He (Lord J. Man• ners) had no fear of the use which the working classes might make of whatever franchise Parliament in its wisdom might think fit to confer on them. Probably the first question in a parliament of working men, or in a parliament represent ing the views and wishes of working men, would not be a question of political change, but a question which came home to their hearts and interests, and which lay deeply at the root of the question of the connexion between the em ployer and the employed. He did not wish to dwell upon this subject, but as the hon. member for Birmingham had made allusion to it at various meetings in the country— Where he, " Like Cato, gave his little senate laws, And sat attentive to his own applause ;" a laugh)—and given the working classes advice upon it. He (Lord J. Manners) would take that opportunity of also offering them some advice on the subject. The member for Birmingham had said in effect to the working men, " You have at present a most important organisation in your clubs and trades' unions ; but believe me nothing can be more foolish than the objects to which you apply that organisa tion. Trust me with. the direction of your trades' unions and organisation, and see what wonderful effects I will pro duce for you." Now he (Lord J. Manners) believed the working classes had not yet taken the advice of the hon. member for Birmingham ; and he thought the reason was this—the working men of the north were too shrewd, and knew what they were about on this question. They knew the conduct and career of the hon. member in that house, , and when he came before the working men they naturally said to him, " We have watched your past career in Par liament You were in Parliament in 1846 and 1847, when a great question was raised to which we attached vast im portance; and how did you act when that measure was under discussion ?" (Hear, hear.) The working men looked to the records of the house, and they saw that the hon. mem ber for Birmingham was one of the foremost and most per tinacious opponents of the Ten Hours Bill to which they attached so much importance, and which was defeated by a very narrow majority. They remarked that in 1847, when that bill was again brought in, the hon. member not only spoke with great animation against it but acted as one of the tellers in a small minority on the second reading of that bill. But within the last month or so there was introduced a supplement to that Ten Hours Bill, a measure for relieving the sufferings of the bleachers, which attracted the sympathy and secured the support of the great body of the working classes.' What was the conduct of the hon. gentleman on that . occasion'? True it was that he was in the House of Com mons five minutes before the bill came on, but not having the courage to vote against the second reading he absented himself from the division. He (Lord J. Manners) could net, therefore, wonder , that the workin g men o f th e north did not place confidence in the hon. member, and refused to follow his insidious and pernicious advice. He came, then, to the second portion of the noble lord's bill, that which pro posed to cut down the county franchise to £lO. What there the evils of the present system, and what were the remedies which the noble lord proposed for them ? His (Lord John Manners's) proposition was, that the bill of last session did meet the only evil which the county representation ever had alleged against it; but the bill of the noble lord removed and intended to remove nothing. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord in introducing his bill gave them no statistics in favour of this portion of the measure ; but he told them that the occupiers of £2O and £lO holdings were as fully entitled to a vote as the owner of a £5O holding. Well, now he must tell the noble lord that that was not a principle of the bill of the late Government. There were two evils in the re presentation which the late government attempted to re medy. In counties it was found that the freeholders in towns were likely to overwhelm the natural voice of the purely county constituencies, and so trench upon the rights and privileges of the rural districts, and they therefore pro vided that these freeholders should no longer have votes for the counties, but for the boroughs. But a prejudice was im mediately raised by thenoble lord against that portionof the bill, though that principle was one which in 1832 was sup ported by Lord Fitzwilliam, and many other stanch reformers of that day. Was it contended that the county representation at present did not give them the predominant voice of the rural districts? It was admitted that it did; and it was not alleged that there was anything like bribery and cor ruption in counties ; and except on the platform in Bir mingham, or in Manchester, no one alleged intimidation. The other evil, he should rather say the other defect, which the late Government endeavoured to remedy was this—that a person living in a £lO house in a borough could exercise the franchise, but if he lived beyond the boundary of the borough, though he might have a £4O house, he had no vote. ' Their bill cured that defect. But the bill of the noble lord merely transferred the defect from £5O down to £lO in counties, and from £lO to £6 in boroughs. In principle the defect remained, only the noble lord tinkered a little at the upper end of the scale. On account of the wear and tear of public life, and the grinding of the parliamentary mill, there was a growing indisposition on the part of city gentle men to take that part in public affairs which they had hitherto taken, and he did not think it wise to produce that state of things, but the bill of the noble lord would have that result. This brought him to the third portion of the bill, and that was the redistribution of seats. He had the greatest dislike to the proposition for giving a third mem ber to various towns and counties, but if they were to have three members for certain constituencies, he should like to know on what principle the noble lord proceeded. Was it population? If, so, why was the Tower Hamlets, which had the largest population of any borough, to continue to have only two members ? The noble lord said it was diversity of interests. On that ground the Tower Hamlets, he thought had been hardly used, and was justified in asking for an in crease of members. These were some of the principal sins of commission of this luckless bill. Its sins of omission were without munber. He might occupy hours in recountin g thorn. Let them draw a veil over them. He confessed, when he heard the noble lord propose this measure, and witnessed the mournful silence with which an unenraptured audience listened to the dreary catalogue of stale proposals that fell from his unimpassioned lips, he asked—Was this the great measure of parliamentary reform, the deliberate proposition of a Cabinet that arrogated to itself all the intellect, all the liberalism, nay all the enlightened conservatism of the day ; or was it rather the grudging and perfunctory redemption of a rash pledge ? And then, when they came to the second reading, net a minister spoke, and the defence of it was en trusted to the hon. member for Birmingham, who had been the guardian and the champion of her Majesty's Ministers. To him they owed the commercial treaty, about which every one of their chambers of commerce were now so ecsta tic and eulogistic. He was of opinion that the time had come when the gangway should no longer separate the hon. member from the Government benches, and that, as he had the responsibility, he should has e the honour of supporting the Government. (Hear, hear.) Well, this being the cha racter of the bill, and the character of the support which it had met with in that house, the practical question was, what were they to do with it ? Tho house was something in the position of Pickwick and his friends when they found ,-ilsemselves walking about the country with the unpleasant tall horse, which they did not know how to get rid of. There was, indeed, an hon. gentleman, the chairman of committees, who discharged the functions of his office in a way which rendered him most popular, who told them he had found a loose box inwhich this tall horse might be shut up, and the whole party at once felt a sense of relief which could hardly be described. The noble lord, however, did not wish his favourite quadruped to be disposed of in that manner, and the hon. gentleman, who he thought was hardly treated, at once withdrew his amendment. The qnestion again recurred, what were they to do with this bill ? In that magnificent speech which rendered the debate of last Thursday memorable, his right hon. friend the member for Hertfordshire appealed in the most patriotic terms to the noble lord to withdraw the bill, but the noble lord did not seem prepared to adopt that sensible advice. If the noble lord insisted on proceeding with the bill in committee, it would require all resources of mind and of body to pass the bill through committee. Then he asked what was the posi tion of the noble lord ? Was he at that moment capable however willing, to devote his energies, and that time, that constant and assiduous attention which were required to manipulate this bill into shape. The noble lord was conduct ing the affairs of this country at a time when the condition of Europe was most critical. The noble lord had many friends, and long might he he spared to thorn. When any one was in conversation with any of these friends and any one remarked that the noble lord had not penetrated the designs of the Emperor of the French, though members of the house had pointed them out to him, the reply was, "Don't be unjust, the noble lord was overcoming the scru ples of his colleagues, and was devising a measure which is to send him down to posterity as the great reformer of the age." But if on the other hand it was said that this bill was hardly such a bill as was expected from the noble lord, the admiring friend said, "Don't be unjust to the noble lord ; how can you expect he should be occupying his at tention with figures relating to £6 and £8 borough fran chises when he had on his hands the whole affairs of Europe when he had to penetrate the designs of ambitious monarchs and to restrain the fury of undisciplined peoples ?" He did not like to give to the house that well-known description of the noble lord by a facetious canon, but without saying that the noble lord thought himself capable of performing an operation for the stone, and commanding the channel fleet, at the same time he might say that that was hardly a meta phor, for the noble lord Ras now cutting and slashing at the constitution of England, and at tke same time he was directing, not the channel fleet, but all the fleets of England all over the world, for that was one of the important func tions of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. Well, then, they had the noble lord involved in duties which no man could efficiently discharge. No livims man could reform the constitution of this country and guide the foreign affairs of this mighty empire in the present critical condition of Europe at one and the same time. He trusted the noble lord would make his selection, and either give up the seals of the Foreign-oflice or give up his bill. For his own part, he would rather the noble lord kept the seals of the Foreign-office —not because he had the highest opinion of the noble lord's conduct of that department, but because he doubted whether the noble lord's thoroughly English sentimen's were shared by his colleagues. But if the noble lord were determined to take neither the one course nor the other, it was clear to him, and he thought it must be so to many members of that house, that they must expect some signal failure in their foreign policy, and a miserable abortion in the shape of a reform bill. He believed the country would not blame the noble lord or her Majesty's Govern ment for withdrawing the bill. He was certain that on that (the opposition) side of the house, no taunt and no in sinuation would be hurled against the motives which guided the noble lord. It would be the patriotic course, and from that side of the house the noble lord was safe from all re proach. Would the country blame the Government ? The country was not apathetic, nor was it eager, as the hon. member for Birmingham appeared to think it. The coun try was anxious and nervous, lest through ignorance, through want of consideration, through prejudice, through party feeling, an ill-considered measure should pass, and bring ruin upon those institutions which had so long recon ciled liberty with order, and blended in one harmonious whole the various classes of an ancient and illustrious com munity. Let the house view with respect these just and noble apprehensions, and let not the strange and anomalous spec tacle be soon of a reluctant Parliament forcing upon a still more reluctant nation legislation so devoid of merit and so full of danger to its constitution. (Cheers.) Mr. lIODGKINSON said that many of the topics dealt with by the noble lord who had just sat down had nothing whatever to do with the measure under discussion. It was said to be dangerous to entrust the working classes with the franchise, and the late combination of working men in the building trade against the masters were alluded to, but except on that subject, in which all their personal inte rests were involved, could they be got to combine for poli tical, religious, or any other objects whatever ? He thought not The building strike was a very different thing from any other matter, and for political objects he had no fear of the working classes. But it was said the house waspledged to Reform, and, upon the other hand, there was an apathy about Reform out of doors. There were two opposite ar- gutnents used by one and the same speaker. Looking at the opinions of the house generally, the two great parties seemed to differ mostly upon the point of the reduction of the borough franchise and the fancy franchises. Was not the Conseivatiye measure rejected mostly upon the ground that the borough franchise was not reduced ? Did they not go to the country on that point, and did not Lord Derby admit that the country was against him on that point ? He also admitted that Parliament was against his Government on that point, and that, therefore, they were prepared to deal with the borough franchise by lowering the suffrage. lie hoped they would speedily pass into committee on the bill. iMr. lIOPWOOD believed the noble lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was one of the most overrated statesman of the present day, and it was to be hoped he was not the author of the present measure. It was a most ob structive bill, and fell far short of the just expectations of the people. Mr. CAIRD supported the bill. He did not think it con tained any provision which would upset the balance of the constitution. Taking the present number of houses and the number of voters, he found that the figures gave one voter for every four householders. The Home Secretary, who was naturally best informed as to the actual addition to the con stituency, if the bill was passed, estimated the increase at , MAY 1, IE6O. 400,000, which would still leave the proportion of one voter is three. householders. That certainly could not be called a household suffrage; while in Scotland and Ireland the voters would still be far below one-third of the adult male population of those parts of the United Kingdom. Even if I the additien was entirely from the working classes there would be no danger from that, poking at the general spread of intelligence among them ; and further, , so far from their being a monotony of pursuits, he found, by a careful return from the city of Edinburgh, that among the 4,000 who would be added to the constituency by the bill, there were 170 different pursuits—(hear) —and that they belonged to the same classes and professions as the present constitu ency. As to the admission of the working classes of this country, he saw no danger to be apprehended from it, but on the contrary many advantages, and he should therefore cordially support the second reading. •(Cheers.) Mr. B. COCHRANE said the measure now before them was one that was covered with obloquy, and that was treated with the greatest amount of obloquy —a bill of which no man spoke out of doors but in terms of obloquy. (Hear, hear.) There was one most important point upon which they must all agree, namely, that the bill was not to be considered as a final settlement of the question, but as an instalment only—(hear, hear)—and if it could be asserted that the measure would have the effect of .settling the question even for twenty years, he, for one, would say, "Let us agree to the bill." (No, no, from the Opposition) It was a dangerous measure, and he might illustrate it by reference to one of £sop's Fables. A wood man went into the wood, and appealing to the trees asked them to give him a handle for his hatchet. They all agreed to furnish him with a handle; but so soon as the handle was fitted to the hatchet he went to work, and was cutting down every tree in the forest. There was among them an aged oak, who whispered to another, " We have done that which will be the ruin of us all." (Laughter.) Now, so it was with the Reform Bill. If they consented to it it would be the ruin of the country. Her Majesty's Ministers reminded him of Puff, in the Critic, who, when he had put his actors on the stage, each with a dagger in his hand, exclaimed, "There is a situation but how ant Ito get them off ?" (laughter)—and so it was with respect to the Reform Bill. With respect to the working classes, he begged to say lie had no apprehension of those of this country; bat he cer tainly entertained great dread of the enormous control which some parties exercised over them. The views, for instance, of the hon. member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) had been overlooked in that house. (Oh, oh, and laughter.) The hon. member's opinions as expressed in the house were cer tainly understood; but they were of a very different cha racter when he delivered them out of the house. The hon member reminded him by his speeches of what was said of the month of March—that it "came in like a lion, and went out like a lamb." The hon. member in that house certainly came in like a lamb, but when he left it he went out like a lion. (Laughter.) He would read • a collection of the hon. member's speeches as published and corrected by himself. They were delivered by him at Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Bury, and other places. Here, for instance, was one of them :—" How can I reconcile a free representation of the people in the House of Commons with the inevitable disposition of an hereditary House of Lords ? Now, they consequently knew from those expres sions that the hon. gentleman was of opinion that they could have no free representation of the people with a here ditary peerage, and without the abolition of the House of Lords. Mr. BRIGHT—Are those words in the speech ? Mr. B. COCHRANE—Yes. Mr. BRIGHT—The hon. gentleman is not quoting cor rectly. He is interlarding. lam very sorry to interrupt; but he has introduced and added words that are not in the speech. Mr, B. COCHRANE—I will read again. [The hon. gentleman here read the extract again.] Now, according to those opinions of the hon. gentleman no great question of parliamentary reform could be obtained without the abo lition of the House of Peers. (No, no.) Mr. B. COCHRANE—I will quote again from the hon. gentleman's speech. Mr. BRIGHT—Read it all. (Laughter.) Mr. B. COCHRANE—I should be very sorry to mis quote the hon. gentleman ; but the hon. gentleman said this—" There is another kind of influence which I am afraid to touch upon—that creature ! What shall I say of the monstrous, nay, adulterous presence in the House of Lords, of the spiritual peers. Mr. Kinglake, in a very in teresting work which he had written of his travels in the East, describes the jackalls, is hunting their prey, just like place-hunters is England." (Hear, hear, from Mr. Bright, and laughter.) " The great territorial families," continued the hon. gentleman, " follow their prey just as the jackalls follow their prey. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Bright.) Such was the language in which the peers of this country were spoken of by the hon. gentleman the member for Birming ham. This proposed Reform Bill would ultimately affect the whole financial interest of the country, and when they passed the measure they would have in the new Parliament a financial system throwing the whole taxation on the property of the country. Had an opportunity been afforded him he should vote agains the bill. They had been taunted because they declined tot move an amendment. But he repeated his belief that if every hon. member in that house gave his vote according to his conscience, the measure would be rejected by a ma jority of two to one, and he believed that. when it was too late they would find, if they passed the bill, that it was fraught with evils to the constitution of the country. Mr. P. URQUHART said the great objection that was urged to this bill was directed specially against the exten sion of the franchise to the occupiers of £6 houses. But he would ask whether it was not notorious that the members of that class had universally improved both in intelligence and in soc ial status ? Even if th a t were not t h e case, he fully believed that what was for the good of one class was for the good of all other classes, and that any selfishness on the part of one class towards another would re-act power fully upon it. A glance at colonial progress, and even at what they saw in the United States, would supply an irre sistible argument in favour of reform, and he still hoped, notwithstanding the spirit of opposition which it had ex cited, that the bill, which he must say he wished had gone further, would receive fair consideration at the hands of hon. gentlemen opposite, and eventually pass through both houses. (Hear, hear.) Mr. DU CANE said he had listened to the addresses which had been delivered on both sides of the house on this question, and he rose in a state of considerable mental be wilderment as to who were really the supporters of the bill (Heat', hear.) The house would remember that at the downfall of Lord Derby's Administration they were told they were about to see some little clearness in the Political atmosphere, and that an identity of sentiment would pervade the hearts of 4he great Liberal party. He had no doubt that at the time those words were spoken those who uttered them were sincere; but looking at the course which this debate had taken, he feared that, like some exhibitions which they had lately witnessed in that house of liberal cohesion, that identity of sentiment had been of a somewhat short-lived character. The hon. mem ber for Birmingham supported the bill, because it was an instalment and excluded any fancy franchise. On the other hand, the member for Marylebone condemned the measure for the self-same reason. The member for Bir mingham spoke with almost an amount of contempt and indifference as regarded the limited number which this bill would introduce to the franchise. On the other hand, the member for Marylebone was in perfect raptures at the pro spect of the thousands—perhaps tens of thousands—whom he hoped shortly to embrace as his new constituents. The member for Edinburgh (Mr. Black) did not hesitate to de nounce this bill as a dangerous measure ; but, on the other hand, the member for Tiverton (Mr. Denman) said he should cordially support the bill, on the ground that, after the measure of last year, he regarded it as a Conservative mea sure. But when he heard the same hon. member say that he could not detect a:single argument in the speech of the right hon. baronet the member for Hertfordshire (Sir E. L. Bulwer) he questioned the soundness of his conserva tism. Then the Home Secretary recommended the bill to their notice because he said it would do them no harm, while the member for Salford thought it would do no good, and other hon. members regarded it as a homoeopathic dose. Ho (Mr. Du Cane) did not wish to introduce party ques tions into this debate, but he could not help asking what benefit the house and the country had reaped by affirming the resolution of the noble lord last year, and why some of them at least were not sitting in the first session of a re formed Parliament? Let them examine the most prominent 'features of the present bill. He should say in the first place, he thought they had in the bill of last year the materials ready at hand to reduce the county franchise to £lO in any way they pleased, and they might have with out any great difficulty effected a reduction of the borough franchise. Ho knew the then Government were opposed to the resolution of the noble lord, because they said it was brought forward at an unfair time, and raised an unfair issue; but he thought there was no evidence to show that if the house had gone into committee on that bill, and had proposed the introduction of a £lO or a £6 franchise, that Lord Derby's Government would not have accepted the proposition. But even suppose they had not, the ho,use would not now be in a worse position as regarded this ques • tiou, because they might have had some direot expression of the opinion of the house on the borough franchise. He thought they might also have effected, by the bill of last year, a redistribution of seats to a somewhat narrower limit than the noble lord now intended to fix them. They had, moreover, in the bill of last year, a franchise which would have acted among the working classes upon the principle of selection, which would have extended to thousands of artizans who were entirely passed over by the present measure. (Hear, hear.) That measure, as it now stood, would be, in his opi nion, the most dangerous and one •sided measure which had ever yet been presented to the house ; and as regarded any i m mediate purpose of a satisfactory settlement, the bill would be both insignificant and abortive. It would unsettle every thing and settle nothing, and in its future consequences _ _ _ would be both dangerous and revolutionary. If the house wanted to pass a measure of reform, let it not be a taut _ sure framed merely for the sake of passing, but one which would embrace those reforms which appeared to the house • bo desirable. Upon. the question of registra tion, polling booths, and travelling expenses to voters, this bill was silent as the grave. It had been thrown out that they were to be treated to a supplementary reform bill in that house when a certain committee, which , was sitting up stairs on corrupt practices at elections, had finished their labours, and presented their report; but he thought if that argument was good for anything at all it was a conclusive one for the postponement of this measure till the committee alluded to had furnished their report. He wished here to make a remark on what had fallen from the hon. and learned member for Marylebone. The hon. and learned member retaliated on the discontented elector, who complained that his vote was neutralised by the Liberals, by saying that the Liberal electors might make the same complaint of North Essex. If the hon. and learned member took the troub:e to analyse the Conservative majority of North Essex, he would find that it comprehended every class, whereas the hon. and learned member himself was returned exclusively by one class of his constituents. The hon. and learned member had also expressed his rapture at the number that would be added to the London constitu ency, but he had not told them how many members of the late builders' strike would be numbered amongst the new electors. The hon. and learned member for Tiverton had said that if such a strike had taken place before the passing of the first Reform Bill it would have terminated in blood and riot; but he should remember that there were other methods of coercion besides the brickbat and the bludgeon. The hon. member for Bi, mingham was prepared to repose a generous, confidence in the people, but they should begin with having confidence in the hon. member himself, and that confidence was diminishing on that (the Opposition) side of the house as rapidly as it seemed to be increasing in tho Treasury benches. They had been told by an illus trious member of that assembly that confidence was a plant of a slow growth, and they had this year seen the futility Or a great many golden proverbs. How different from his language in that house was the hon. member for Birmingham's language on that Manchester platform, when his own chairman told him he drove such a roaring trade; might not this house be apt to think that this would only be a temporary gift of the franchise, and that it would pro vide for the subsequent power of combination. It might be thought by hon. members that this would be but a drop in the ocean of what the working classes had a right to expect. (Hear, hear, from the Ministerialists, and cheers from the Opposition.) The working classes would enter into new com binations,, and they would act upon their delegates in Par liament, and woe be to the man who did not obey the will of the people. The hon. gentleman then read an article which recently appeared in the Weekly Dispatch—the organ of the working classes—showing what a tremendous measure this Reform Bill was, and that it was far more com prehensive than either friends or enemies conceived. Hon. members might think the writer's views exaggerated. But, at any rate, this was not a branch of the question which they could afford to pass over in silence or with indifference at a moment when they were about to pass a bill which was to be the prelude to further changes in the constitution, and which would give to the working classes a preponderance in the representation of the country. They lived under free in stitutions and in times of freedom of speech, and with a free press. The principle of this measure was an extension of the franchise, and it was no part of a Conservative policy to deny that principle. It was no part of the Conservative policy to imitate the example of another celebrated phalanx of 300 in ancient days, who buckled on their armour and courted destruction, in their hapless resistance to the ad vancing tide of popular opinion. Ho did not say to the Conservative party, as regards the present position, in the despairing language of Byron— " Of the three hundred grant but three, To make a new Thermopylae." (Hear, hear.) The question involved was not one for the Conservative party alone, but for every pasty, by what ever name it might be called, or who had any regard for representative institutions. (Hear, hear.) Mr. CLAY said he fancied that the middle classes had had their Reform Bill in 1832, and that now the time of the working classes had come. It was because the Conservative measure did not concede that principle that they on that side of the house voted against the bill. In his belief they must have a Reform Bill, and the only question was, what kind of Reform should 'it be. It was said this was the wrong time, but he agreed with Jeremy Bentham, that as soon as they found anythihg wrong, then was the time to amend it. He declined to put off indefinitely this long agita tion of reform. His right hon. friend (Sir E. B. Lytton) objected to this bill because it did not go the length which reformers desired; but Radical members would not object to the bill being extended to the intelligent classes to a greater extent than was now proposed. He should be happy to assist his right hon. friend (Sir E. B. Lytton) in committee on the bill to extend its principle to the more in telligent classes of the community ; but he had no hope that his right hon. friend would go this length. Mr. A. MILLS said that up to that night there had been 43 speeches made on this bill, of which only one was positively in favour of it. The others were chiefly against it. The party with which he was identified had no desire to destroy the bill, but to make it, in committee, a really efficient measure. He for one was most anxious to make it such a bill, Mit if it did not come out of committee as good as he could desire it to be, he for one would vote against its third reading. Mr. J. LOCKE was anxious to say a few words on this question, as, with the exception of his hon. and learned friend the member for Marylebone. not one metropolitan member had spoken on the question. His hon. friend (Sir C. Napier) and himself were returned by the working classes, and it was said that the object of this bill was to ex tend the franchise to the working classes, and that there fore the object of this bill was a bad one, because it would have the effect of returning to that house such members as those who represented the metropolis in that assembly. Well, all he could say was, that he wished all the members of that house were as good as the members for the metro polis, (Hear, and a laugh.) The members for the metro polis amounted to 16 in number. Whatever talent might be denied them, this, at least, could not be said of them, that they were not assiduous in their duties towards their constituents, or to the obligations imposed upon them as members of that house. But if they looked amongst the present members of the metropolis, it would be found that they could boast, at least, of having as one of them the noble lord the member for London. They could also boast of having amongst them generals and admirals who had fought for and defended their country. They had also amongst them one who had solved a difficulty which had occurred in the course of the Crimean war. That hon. mem ber had carried out a railway from Balaclava to the heights of Sebastopol, and for making which ho was made a baronet. (Hear.) These were the members who were returned by the working classes. (He tr.) In.many of the metropoli tan boroughs not one-half of the electors ever voted at all ; but it was not so in Southwark, for at last election, out of 10,000 electors en the register, upwards of 7,000 went to the poll. He did net mean to say he approved entirely of this bill, but he certainly did approve of the £6 franchise, and regretted a lodger franchise was not introduced. There were many persons who were in lodgings earned £5, £6, and in some instances £8 a week, as engineers and others, and were persons of great intelligence and respectability. (Hear.) He did not care whether the addition to the franchise made by this bill was 250,000 or 450,000, so long as ade quate arrangements were made for registration and for polling. He hoped the bill would be allowed to go into committee as soon as possible. The bill was certainly without some of the franchises which were in the late bill, but the late Government had all the clauses cut and dried— (laughter)—and as the noble lord had said, the bill was open to them if they could get their clauses into it. (Hear, and laughter.) But did they really want these clauses ? Did they want a Reform Bill at all ? (No, no.) That was the question. He was glad to have extracted from the party opposite such a candid expression of opinion, but if they did not want reform, how came they to have in troduced a bill on the subject. (Hear.) Mr. KENNETH MACAULAY moved the adjourn ment of the debate to this day. Lord PALMERSTON consented to the motion, but hoped that the two motions fixed for to-day would be post poned to make way for the adjourned debate. Colonel DICKSON said Irish measures ought not to be thus continuously postponed. He could not see why all the - time should be devoted to English bills. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Mr. VINCENT SCULLY said that forty-four English members had previously spoken on the Reforin Bill— (laughter)—and fifteen more had spoken that night. (Re newed laughter.) Thus they had sixty English members speaking on the Reform Bill, so that that measure had become the great social evil of the day. (Laughter.) It was becoming a standing nuisance both to the house and to the country. (Hear, hear.) Ile noticed, too, that every one wise spoke addressed himself not to the Government, but to the honourable gentle man the member for Birmingham—(laughter)--who had become a sort of dry-nurse to the noble lord. (Laughter and cheers.) The noble lord had said he would not take the second reading of the Irish Bill till after the second reading of the English Bill, although the English Bill con cerned the Irish member as much as the Irish Bill. Out of the 14 metropolitan members they were told that only one had spoken; now two had spoken, and he should patiently hear the othei 14—(laughter)—only he hoped that when they had all exhausted their eloquence on the subject, Irish members would be allowed to state their impressions, and that no impatience would be exhibited towards them. (Hear.) , He agreed with the reproach that members did not take their proper part in general legislation, but con • fined themselves too much to questions of merely local in terest. He hoped they would take the hint which had been given them on this point, and if they'did not, he should be compelled to allow his modesty to be overcome—(laughter) —and state his views at some length. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Mr. POPE HENESSEY said he could not withdraw he important bill which stood in his name for to-morrow :this day). Sir J. ELPHINSTONB said he hoped the hon. and gal lant member for Southwark would not withdraw his motion, since the manning of the navy was far more important an any Reform Bill. (Opposition cheering.) - - Mr. P. O'BRIEN said the sooner the bill was disposed of, one way or the other, either by being passed or thrown out, the better. (Hear,hear.) If the Irish members gave way on the tenant right question to-morrow, would the Government give them another day for the purpose ? (Cries of Question and Hear, hear.) The debate was then adjourned to this day, and the Mai and Scotch bills were also postponed, THE PAPER DUTY. This bill was postponed till Thursday. CUSTOMS BILL. On the motion for the consideration of the amendments on this bill, Sir H. CAIRNS moved to add the following clause : "And whereas contracts may have been made on or before the said day of , 1860, for the delivery free of duty after that day of goods or commodities the duties of cus toms on which are hereby lowered or repealed : Be it then fore enacted, that any person who shall or may, on or befora, the said day of , 1860, have made or entered into any such contract or agreement as the purchaser or con signee of such goods or commodities, may and is hereby authorised and empowered to deduct from the suns payable by him under such contract or agreement the amount of the duties whi3h, if this act had not passed, would have been payable in respect of such goods or commodities." After a-few words from Mr. LAING, The SOLICITOR-GENERAL opposed the principle of the motion. Sir H. CA.JRNS replied that the principle of the clause had been several times affirmed by the house in the pre sence of the right hon. gentleman since ho had been a member of it, and affirmed in the most solemn and plain way. (Hear, hear.) The clause was then agreed to. ' WAYS AND MEANS. The report oil ways and means, granting upwards of £13,000,000 for her Majesty's service, was brought up. REFRESHMENT HOUSES AND WINE LICENCES BILL. The adjourned debate on this bill *as postponed till Thursday next. The Lords' amendments on the Dwellings for the Labour ing Classes Bill were considered•and agreed to. METROPOLIS LOCAL MANAGEMENT ACT. Mr. TITE obtained leave to bring in a 'bill further to amend the act 18th and 19th Viet., c. 120, for the bettor local management of the metropolis, which was read a first time. The other orders of the day having been disposed of, the house adjourned at ten minutes past one o'clock. PAIRS ON THE CH For Against Mr II Wickham Major Knox Mr H Adair Sir E Filmor Lord E Bruce Mr Packe Mr Alderman RCH-RATES BILL. For A 4 ainst Dr Lyons Mr J Wynne Mr Trail! Mr Franklyn Lord Ashley Mr Stirling Col Clifford MrßStanhope Mr Rich Lrd Pevensey Mr M Manes Mr Cooper Mr Heneage Mr T Baring Capt O'Connell Sir It Peel Lord Fermoy Right Hon W Gladstone Hon C Fitzwil- Copeland Mr Devisor. Sir J Elphin stone • Sir W Wynn Colonel Tynte Capt Bunbury, Mr Grenfell Dr Boyd Mr Holland Lord Jermyn The Lord Advo cate Col Maxwell Mr Wemyss Hon J• Cole Colonel Powell Sir C Burrell Mr Biggs Captain Gray Sir W Dunbar Lord Emlyn SirM CholmeleyMr H Astell Sir J Shelley Mr 1) Ker Mr Titus Salt Lrd Henniker Mr H Vivian SirE Kerrison Sir G DashwoodCol Bernard Mr W 0 Foster Mjr Hamilton Mr Glyn Mr J A Warred Mr Maguire Col W Patten Mr H Taylor SirJFergusson Liam Mr C Wynne Mr Angcrstein Lord Haddo Mr Dunlop Sir W lleath- cote Mr H Sheridan Lord A:Vane Tempest Mr Carnegie GnArbuthnot Mr Staniland Lord Grey de Wilton Mr C It Talbot Gen Peel IDr Brady Mr W Citbitt 'Sires Willoughby Sir E Grogan Sir F Smith Hon H Corry Hon D ForteseueEari Bective Sir J. V. Shelley was unable to vote for the third. read ing, owing to an attack of influenza. Mr. T. E. Mostyn was unavoidably prevented from re cording his - vote in favour of the third reading. COUNTRY MARKETS. - COLCHESTI A better supply of wheat, prices. Barley comes scarce, is higher. Peas as before. Wheat, white sos to 56s 1 Beans, Mazagan..34 B to 37 s red 46s to 528 I Middle & small 36s to 420 Barley 36s to 50s I White peas 36s to 38 8 Oats 2os to 28s Grey.. 36s to 408 R-APRIL 28. which realised, last week's and is fully as dear. Beans CHELMSFORD-APRIL 27. There was a larger supply of wheat to-day, and the best samples barely realised late rates ; inferior is cheaper, with a dull trade. Peas and beans firm. Oats and barley were is dearer. Wheat, white 44s to 56s red 43s to 50s Barley 35s to 45s Chevalier 39s to 49s Grinding .. 29s to 348 Malt 60s to 66s Chevalier 63s to 68s Oats 27s to 36s Peas, Partridge 4os to 41s White 40s to 42s Boiling ' 40s to 43s Dun 35s to 38s Beans, Tick 4OB to 433 Harrow Ticks 43s to 46s Mazagan 37s to 39s OXFORD-APRIL 28. A large quantity of wheat at market to-day, for which the trade was sluggish for all samples ; other grainin active. White' ruled at 48s to 545, red 41s to 48s per qr. Barley, 32s to 42s ' • oats, 23s to 33s ; beans, 38s to 48s ; hog - peas, 39s to 42s ; boilers, 40s to 45s per qr. Flour, 33s to 39s per sack. Hay, from £3 Os to £4 Os per ton. GLOUCESTER-APRIL 28. There was not a large attendance to-clay. Not much bu:sinesS done, and no expect%tion of any further advance in prices. - KIRKA 'Here to-day we have kind of grain. Sales rea , chilly again. .DY-APRIL 28. iad vory small supplies of every ly, at fully late rates. Weather Wheat Barley Oats First.... 48s Od 38s Od 285 Od Second.. 53s Od --s Od 32s Od Third .. 55s Od --s Od 33s 0 ET—APRIL 30. the close e the market.) Walls End. y s. (I. i Framwellgate 2O 9 I lievigh Hall 20 9 Thorpe . • . .21 0 I Whitworth .. 16 0 1 Horton • • 2O 0 1 Hunwick l6 0 Wharneliffe 20 0 Shinelife Tunstall Acorn Close ....20 9 Eden ....20 9 Haswell ..............22 0 South Hartlepool • 20 9 Keiper Grange........ 21 3 Carway and Duffryn. Malting , :et, 53—Sold, 37. BT L IST. tters are despatched by morning mails. Port of Despatch. • due: Southamp. May 10 May 4 Liverpool. Liverpool. May 10 May 2 Devonport !June 1 Southamp. Southamp. Southamp. May 2 May 13 overdue May 11 I Sou thump. If ay 2 May 13 Southamp. overdue May 4 Southamp. Seuthamp. May 5 Ma y 1 overdue May 4 COAL MARK . (Prices of Coal per Ton at s. d. Middle's West Hartleyl6 0' Byass's Bel3side West Hartley .16 Davison's West Hart- ley .i.io o) Q Hastings Hartley 0 Holywell 16 _0 Howard's West Hart- le l5 9 Tanfi y eld Moor . .. .13 9 Tanfield Moor Butes..l3 9 West Hartley l6 0 WlTlam l6 0 Bell's Primrose l3 3 Walls End. Hatton.... 22 0 Ships at mark, FOREIGN MAIL PA C in the following table E signifieti that le' by evening mails from London, and M Despatch of Mails. DESTINATIONS. Australia and Mauritius, via Southampton Ditto, via Marseilles Bahamas and Havana via New York May 12, M May 18, E' 31ay 12, E May 2 E Canada, &c. (by Canadn. pckt.) Cape of Good Hope, Ascen sion, and St. Helena Chips, Penang, and Singa pore, via Southampton Ditto, via Marseilles Gibraltar, via Southamptoit Honduras and Blewfields India (Calcutta) and Ceylon, via Southampton Ditto, via Marseilles .. " India (Bombay), via iouth ampton ................ Ditto, via Marseilles .......... Lisbon, Brazils,Buenos Ayres, and F. Islands ........ Lisbon, Vigo, a n d 0p0rt0........ Malta, Egypt, and Aden, via Southampton Ditto, via Marseilles Mexico and Havana Newfoundland May 5, E Liverpool.. United States and British N America (by British packet May 1, E Liverpool.. Ditto (by U. S. imcket) West Coast of Africa, Ma deira, and Teneriffe May 23 E Liverpool.. West India, California, Vene zuela, Chili, Peru, Grey town. New Granada. &c. ,May 2, H Sonthamp. /3 IaY 5, El May 4, M' May 10, El May 4, M May 17, M, May 4, M May 10, E May 12, M I May 3, El IMay 9, M . I May 7,M May 4,M May 3 E, Southamp. May 2 May 10 I May 11 [ADVERTISESIENT.]—HoIIoway's s and Ointment.—. Irresistible Remedies.—For weak or diseased lungs, dropsi cal symptoms, and chronic rheumatism, Holloway's Ointment and pills stand unrivalled. Kr. Turner, chemist, of Bitnham, Norfo:k, writes that James Turner, of Henninghall Heath, was grievously afflicted for many years by a complication of such disorders. This poor man was quite incapable of any exertion—the best procurable medical advice gave no relief, when fortunately Holloway's preparations were recom mended. Considerable ease was obtained immediately on their use, and the power of motion returned, while every un toward symptom gradually departed. By persevering fric tion with the ointment over the affected parts the patient was soon enabled to resume his usual employment, and grate fully testifies to the efficacy of Holloway's purifying reme dies. 'BIRTHS. BOLTON.—On the 29th ult., at Kilburn Lodge, Kilburn, the wife of the Rev. James Bolton, of a daughter. CIIRTIS.—On the 29th ult., at 5, Park-street, Grosvenor square, the wife of W. Cotton Curtis, Esq., of a son. SHARPE.—On the 29th ult., at Richmond, the wife of J. Chas. Sharpe, Esq., banker, of Fleet-street, London, of a son. ( MARRIAGES. DIGWEED—MILL.—On the 28th ult., at Brighton, John S. Digweed, Esq., of the Inner Temple, to Clam Esther, the 'second daughter of the late James Mill, Esq., of the India House. PELLE W — FERGUSON.- On the 28th ult., at St. George's, Hanover-square, the Hon. F. J. Fellow, second surviv ing son of the late Viscount Exmouth, to Emily Sarah, youngest daughter of the late Thos. Ferguson, Esq., of Greenville, co. Down. DEATHS. BERBSFORD.—On the 28th ult., at Gillingham Hall, peccles, the Lady George Eeresford, aged 73. BI:ENNERHASETT.—On the 27th ult., at Iwerne Minster, Dorset, the Rev. W. Blennerhasett, aged 59. CLAUGIITON.—On the 27th ult., at Winwick, Benet Wm. Claughton, Esq., aged 50. Ross.—On the 27th ult., at Ramsgate, Alex. Ross, Esq., late Surveyor-General of her Majesty's Customs, aged 75. Roscow.—On the 29th ult., at Edmonton, Capt. Samuel Roscow, R.N., aged 75. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112 Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in th f county of Middlesex, Tuesday, May 1, 1860. ';': -,... DU 0