The Sun. — London, England, 1858-04-28 00:00:00

, to do it by an act of direct legislation, rather than me ke use for that purpose of a phrase in an act which s never intended to be directed against them. (Hear.) e same opinion, almost in the same words, was still ore strongly expres , ed by Mr. Baron Martin upon the me occasion. An argnmentnm ad hominem had been eased against him on a former occasion by Lord Derby that, open repealing the Test and Corporation Acts, lee had retained the wores "upon the true faith of a brietian." It was of the utmost consequence at that ime to secure the passing of the bid, and to obviate the opposition of a noble and learned lord, of whom it had been said that his learning was only exceeded by his gotry—Lord Tenterden—be (Lord Lyndhurst) had onsented to retain the worts. But a few years after, when he found that he could succeed in repealing that clause, he brought in a bill for the purpose, which was carried triumphantly through both houses. (Hear.) It was said that this was not a question of toleration or relgious liberty, but of power and privilege, and that the Legislature might do as it liked about granting that privilege. But this was taking a very narrow view of religious toleration. What he meant by religious liberty was that every man, with respect to office, power and emolument, should, without regard to his religious opinions, be put upon a footing of perfect equality, un ess his opinions were such as to disqualify him from properly performing his duty. (Hear.) Was thsre any other footing, in this enlightened age, upon whicle reli gious liberty could be founded ! We did not now fine or imprison men for their religion; opinions ; but if we denied them the fair emoluments of office, the fair objects of ambition, was not that a greate r injury than even imprisonment ? In so doing we denied the t principles of freedom—we established a rule that would tidily persecution. (Hear.) Where were we to stop 2 1 It was asked if their opinions we re harmless, and this was admitted to be the case, then why should eve inter ere with those opinions ? The argument about unchris tianising the legieleture had been used—an old and fa vourite argument with the opponents of this measure. When that argument was first urged in that house, it met with an entire and complete refutation by a most rev, prelate, then a member of the house, Archbishop W hately. He said, "If you ask if this is a Christian country, the answer will be in the affirmative ; but yet it does not consist exclusively of Christians ; it com prises a certain number of Jews, but you still call it a Christian country. But the constitution of Parliament is to represent the country, and if it represent the coun try fairly, Jews is well as Christians, how can you con tend for a moment that because there are some Jews in Parliament the legislature is not as much a Christian le gislature as the country is a Christian country ?" (Hear.) Had any answer ever been given to that argument ? Could any answer be given to it ? To go further, were not benches of justices Christian ; were not corporations Christian ? Who denied that ? Were there not Jews in corporations, and did they un-Christianise them ? It was not possible to support such an extravagant argument as had been founded on the alleged un-Christianising of the legislature. Take the case of the colonies. Were not the inhabitants of Canada an I our other colonies British suhjsc,s ? Had they not all the same rights as we had, and were they riot all entitled to the same protection? Were they not entitled to be pro tected as Christians? And yet Acts of Parliament had passed their lsrdships' house, and constitutions had been framed for Canada, the Australian colonies, and New ealand, without any provision against the admission of Jews to the legislative bodies of those colonies. (Heir, hear.) Did anybody get np and say that those legisla tures would not be Christian assemblies ? No one had ventured to make such an assertion. But, according to the argument of the Lord Chancellor, those bodies sere tanchristianised, for Jews were admitted into them equally with Christians. It might be asked, had that ever been acted on He knew that a most able mem ber of the Jewish religion was for several years a mem ber of the Horse of Representatives of Lower Canada. That man evinced great talent and great powers ; was extremely popular ; and discharged his duty in a manner perfectly satisfactory. He was told that in one of the Australian colonies a Jew was A member of the legislature. What became then of the principle ? (Hear, bear.) It seemed we did not care about the principle in the colonies ; they were not considered worthy of atten ion. (Hear, hear.) A distinction had been drawn between the duties of a legislature and of a bench ofj us tices. What were the qualities they required in an ad ministrator of justice ? That he should be a man of probity, a man of information, a man of impartiality, a man of decision. What qualities did they require in a member of the legislature ? Precisely the same. (Hear, hear.) Those qualities that rendered a man fit to dis charge well the duties of an administrator of justice were the very qualities which it was desirable he should possess as a member of the legislature. (Hear, hear.) Look at Prussia. In that country they said to the Jews—'' You may be members of the legislature ; there is no harm in that ; but you must not be administrators of the law." (Hear.) We said precisely the reverse. Such was the inconsistency of intolerance. (Hear.) In almost every continental nation members of the Jewi,ll religion were admitted to their respective legislatures almost without exception. This was the case even in Catho lic; countries, in France and Belgium. The admission of Jews to those legislatures had not been productive of in convenience or the slightest disadvantage ; and we were called upon by every principle to extend the same privi lege to them here. The first lesson of Christianity was to do to ethers as we wished them to do to us ; this principle was at the basis of all Christian teaching. What bad we done recently in Turkey He could conceive Lord Stratford de Emaciate appealing to the Sultan and saying —"How cruelly you act towards Christians ; you don't admit them to office. They are equally entitled with your other subjects to hold office of every description." And that noble lord had been able to say that we, who were an enlightened nation, pursued that course in Eng land, most likely the Sultan, after due consideration, would have made the concession, and have put the Chris tians in Turkey on the same footing in respect of offices as his other subjects. (Rear.) But it was not fair to cell upon other countries to put in practice those principles which we ourselves refused to act upon ; it was neither just nor honourable. (Hear) We imposed upon the Jews the liability of filling such offices as those of sheriff and alderman, in which they must serve under a penalty. It was said that their Sabbath being on Saturday, and their various holidays incapacitated them from perform ing their duties as Christians ; but there was nothing in this argument. Then it was asked what part would they take on questions affecting religion ! That suggestion came rather too late. The objection was made some 30 years ago, with great force and effect, on the Catholic question. It was said that the Catholics considered us es heretics, and would act upon that belief in religious question". But that was over-ruled • and there was no pretence for saying that Catholics gal. interfered with the Church of England. The Jews were even allowed to present to benefices ; and in no case had any complaint been made of the way in which they had exorcised their rights. It had actually been stated in the other house that the Jews were the subjects of the devil. (Laughter.) The attempt to get up a religious cry against the Jews was worthy of the dark ages ; and he regretted that it bad proceeded from a gentleman of intelligence and reli gious feeling. It had also been said that Jews were mem bers of the inquisition, and that they were the original Jesuits. What was the authority for this ? Nothing nose., than a pepuler novel, by a member of the present Go vernroent—Coningeby. (Laughter.) Then it was sail they were a separate nation, a race of sojeur , iere, I cok ing forward to removal at no distant period. Were they not as enterprising, loyal, and industrieu,s, as other classes ? On all occasions when they were freed from op pression they evinced great talent. A remarkable in stance of this was found in the Jews of Germany ; the moment their liberties were restored many eminent men arose amongst them, di- tingulshed in literature and sci ence. (The noble and learned lord enumerated several, but the names did not reach the gallery.) He trusted that this was the Jest time the bill would be discusseJ, and the last time it would be necessary for him to urge the claims of the Jews upon their lordships. (Hear.) After a few words from the Earl of DESA.RT, The Duke of MARLBOROUGH said the noble and learned lord had admitted that if the question was to he argued on religious grounds, the objection s to the admis sion of the Jews were unanswerable. He admitted they were good citizens and among the most peaceable of hear Majesty's subjects. The highest title of the Qaeen was that of defender of the faith. The highest Sate cere mony, the coronation of the sovereign, was a religiou s act; and in that ceremony her Majesty declared that she would defend the Christian religion to the utmost of her power. Their lordships had been reminded, too, that their proceedings were always inaugurated by solemnly in voking a blessing upon their deliberations in the name of the Divine Founder of our Faith, If the measure be fore the house passed into law, a most formidable step would have been taken towards undermining the Chris tian character of the constitution. (Hear.) There was Only too much reason to think that if any number of Jews ever became members of either house, it would be found necessary either to omit the preliminary prayers, or to omit from those prayers the name of Christ. At all events, he had heard of a case in which a Jew had in sisted upon the omission of the phrase " Christian"sym pathy from the prospectus of a public subscription, and bad succeeded in having the document altered to suit his views. (Hear.) But he (the noble duke) had another ob jection to the bill. He wished to know why Jews should be treated more favourably than Roman Catholics ? (Hear.) By the present law a Roman Catholic could not nominate to any ecclesiastical appointment. He could not hold any office in the universities. He could not pre sent to any benefice. He could not advise the Crown upon any ecclesiastical appointment ; and he coald not hold certain offices under the Crown. But the only one of these restrictions proposed to be enforced against the Jew was that he should not boll certain offices ; but he I might be the Prime Minister or Privy Councill-r, in the I former of whi c h capac i t i es h e wou ld have to adv i se h er Majesty as to the appointment of the chief pastors of the Established Church. (Hear.) The other evening the noble an d learned lord (Lord Ly n dh urs t) h a d r idi cu l e d , with inirnitabt eeet Pwera bill whi c h h a d b een b roug h t i n I Chief by the L or d Justine, b ecause t h e convocat i on would not be a lawfeuantinneeting assembled for a l aw f u l m purpose withi n th e of that bill ; b u t w h a t wou ld the noble and le arne d lord meani ng of if he we re an (woe nent of the present measure, toe said,ari ni enactmentl by which a i Jew, as a member of the Privy c ' judge of Christian doctrine ? (Cheers.)le' T cenoluded by adjuring their lordships, es hile ight become a he nobl e d u k e respect to the principle of civil and religiou s w p ic a l hi e n : g t w t yeLne ev e r to sanction the abuse of the phrase, by h often made to mean the se p arati on el Church and S tet s : (Laud cheers.) Lord STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE wished, atter I the reference which had been made to the country i n which he bad passed so large a portion of his life, to offer a few observations upon the question before the house. The noble and learned lord (Lord Lyndhurst) with that sagacity and love of justice which distinguished him in so remarkahle a manner, had brought to his recollec tion that which was perfectly correct, namely that in Turkey, where the great rational reform that was , THE SUN, L - 0 ND ON, now going on had occupied so much attention in this country, and indeed throughout the whole of Enrope for so many years—there was nothing more striking than to find that the just effects of representations which he had had the honour to make on behalf of this country, had i often been checked by our policy upon the question now 1 before the house—a question with regard to which, not withstanding the progress W 3 bad Made of late years, we were still in the rear of our neighbours. (Cheers.) There was no doubt that the course pursued by this country with regard to the admission of Jews into the Legislae tare had been the subject of remark in Turkey on occa sions when he had had to press the immense importance of setting aside those religious differences which had so much retarded the progress of improvement in that coun ty; and nothing would have afforded him greater pl :a sure than to have been able to show in what respects we in this country had set aside ancient prejudices, which we had unfortunately so long cherished. (Cheers.) With respect to that question, so far as it related to this coun try, it would be wholly unnecessary for him again to go over the ground which had been gone over on both sides with such eminent ability by the two noble and learned lords. Ho considered himself very fortunate at having been present at a debate which would he long remem bered in the annals of this country. The contest between the two noble lords reminded him of one he had read of in his younger days between two iliwtrioue professors of an art for which this country bad been somewhat distin guished— a contest between one who was retiring, but who had been a chief ornament of the pugilistic art—and one who was coming into it with all the vivacity of i youth. (Laughter.) He should, however, be sorry in deed to say of the noble and learned lord who had so rivetted the attentio❑ of their lordships, and who had given a knock-down blow, as he was willing to believe, to prejudices which had so long existed, '` Immani pondere . ceostus Prcjecit." (Cheers.) He hoped the noble lord would long he able to display those ex.:raordinary talents which it had given him singular pleasure after so long an absence to witness. (Cheers.) The grounds upon which he should give the vote he had resolved upon were very simple. He con sidered that every Englishman was entitled to all the rights which our institutions afforded, unless there was something in his religion, on account of which the in terests of the state made it necessary to exercise the power it undoubtedly possessed of making him an excep tion. (Hear, hear.) He was, however, at a loss to understand what there was in the position of the Jew to make him such an exception. (Cheers.) Tue dis tinction which the noble and learned lord had drawn between the Jewish body and certain distinguished members of that body, did not seem to him (Lord Stratford) to rest upon any just ground. The question was not one of the rights derived from accomplishments or from qualities which might belong to a superior edu cation, but it was a question of rights which belonged to the poorest individual. He considered that there was nothing in the position of the Jew which could justly disqualify him from taking a part in the public ser vice or in the legislation of the country ; and he thought that the principle for which he was con tending applied as much to one portion of the com munity as to another. (Hear.) He (the noble lord) could not sit down without again referring for a moment to the subject with which he commenced, and that was a satis faction which he could hardly find terms t) express, that in a country where despotism has been so long established, and where so much de pended upon the will of the ruler, the Sultan, with whom he had been so long in communicatico, had during the 18 or 17 years of his reign, shown a liberality of opinion, and a generosity of disposition, which entitled him to the confidence of this country. But he would remind their lordships that so long as the results of negotiation remained on paper only, important as they might be to the interests not only of Turkey, but of humanity itself, they would want their proper con summation. A great deal must depend upon the advice of the Ministers who were on the spot ; bet a great deal must likewise depend upon the attention which Europe at large continued to apply to the subject, and more especially upon the attention which might be given to it by those who presided over the councils of her Majesty. (Hear, hear.) The Duke of RUTLAND had always opposed the ad mission of the Jews into Parliament; and he could not, as some persons seemed to do, underrate the importance 1 of allowing even a few of that body to obtain seats in I either house. elections. He saw no reason why it should not then be extended to municipal elections. THE ENFIELD RIFLE. General CODRINGION asked the Secretary for War, whether it was true that some of her Majesty's Regi ments of Infantry in the Eist Indies were still armed with the old smooth-bore musket; and, if so, what had caused the delay in changing them for the Enfield Rifle, which had long been issued to the rest of the army, both at home and abroad General PEEL said all the regiments sent from this country to India in 1857 were supplied with the Enfield rifle, but those previously sent out were furnished with the smooth-bore musket. Last year, however, the East India Company sent out 35,000 Enfield rifles to India ; ar,d up to the 10h of this mouth 82,000 had been sent there. Their distribution rested with the Indian Government. Lord Panmure's attention was on a former occasion directed to the subject ; and from what was then done he (General Peel) bad reason to hope that now every one of the army in India had been supplied wish the Enfield rifles. (Hear, hear.) General CODRINGTON asked if he was to under stand from the gallant general's answer that the troops in India still bad the smooth-bore muskets General PEEL said, previlus to 1857 they had them, but he believed sufficient rifles had been ceet out to sup ply every man with one. (Hear, hear.) DELAYED RETURNS, Sir C. NAPIER asked when the returns of the money caved in wages by paying off eight line-of-battle ships in the spring et 1857 ; of the expense of refitting the ships Duke of Wellington, Exmouth, &c.; and of the number of Continuance Service men in the fleet on the Ist day of January, 1857, would be laid on the table ? Mr. CORRY said the returns asked for involved much labour. No unnecessary delay had taken plan", and ho expected they would be ready in a few days. TfIENEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. Viscount INGESTRE a,ked the Chief Commissioner of Works whether his attention had been called to a memorandum left in his office by the late Chief Commis sioner of Works with reference to the unsatisfactory estimate sent in by Sir Charles Brary for the comple tion of the works at the Palace of Westminster, and whetler any and what determination had been come to on the subject ? Lord J. MANNERS said his attention was naturally called to the memorandum in question on his taking office, and he had lost no time in communicating with Mr. E. B irry, who was acting for his father, who was suffering from illness. Details and estimates had been sent in for the entire completion of the palace. Thy had been submitted to the Trea-ury, and in a Lar days he expected they would be in the bands of hon. members. (ilear, hear.) DENMARK. Mr. WISE asked the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether he would lay upon the tabla a copy of tl'e report made in May, 1357, by Consul General Ward, of Leipsic, t 3 the Briti,h Government, on the differences which had arisen between the Duchies and the Kingdom of Denmark : as well as a copy of any observations or reply communicated by the Danish Ministry to ber Majesty's Government in reference to the said report ? Mr. S. FITZGERALD, after referring to the great importance of these difLrences, said that as her Maj-sty's Government might be called on to take a peculiar line of conduct in reference to them, it was obj=.!ct'onable to publish at the present time to the whole world a report of a confidential nature. The reply to the report, or despatch alluded to by the Danish Government, wai communicated confidentially, and nothing more, to Con sul-General Ward. STADE DUES. Mr. HUTT inquired when the notice for the commit tee on the Stade Dues would be placed on the paper? Mr. HENLEY having explained the cause of the de lay, said he hoped to be able to do so to night. Mr. HUTT then gave notice that he should to-morrow move the appointment of a select committee on the Stade Dues. INCREASED ASSIZES. Mr. I.WItIALION moved for a select committee to in quire into the expediency of further improving the a Iministration of justice, by increasing the number of assizes for civil business in the several counties of Eng• land and Walee The hon. and learned member altered his motioninaccordance with Mr. Collins' amendment, to include theincreasing of assize towns ; and forcriminal as well as civil business. He suggested there should be three assizes a-year instead of two, as at present, and that the large counties should be divided. No addi tional judges would be required, and the division of counties would be a great saving of expense and trouble both to suitors and jurors. Mr. HADFIELD seconded the motion. Mr. COLLINS supported the motion. Mr. WALPOLE said that all the information which could be required was already before the house. A still more extensive inquiry had been entered into by a royal commission consisting of many of the most eminent judges and others, who were better able to form an opi nion than a committee of the house could be. All addi tion to the present number of assizes would necessitate a large increase in ; the judicial staff, and was especially unnecessary at a time when the means of communica tion were so much improved, and after the establishment of the county courts. It should be left to the discretion of the Executive to examine the recommendations of the commissioners, and to provide a remedy for existing defects. Mr. IT A.DPIELD urged that justice ought to be brought home to every man's door, and that assizes should be held in every great town. Lord GODERIC a expressed a similar opinion. Sir G. GREY could not see any advantage in going again over the same ground which the commissioners had already travelled. The question should be left to the responsible advisers of the Crown, who would no doubt attend to the claims which might be urged by any par ticular town. Col. SMYTHE defended the actual distribution of the assize. Mr. BRIGHT adduced the difficulty which poor men charged with crime had in bringing their witnesses from a distance as a reason for extending the number of assize. town, Witnesses against him were brought up at the public expense. They had already established a greater number of assizs towns in Liverpool, and he did not see why the same principle should not be extended to other counties. Still, be did not think further inquiry neces sary—they had already sufficient information. After some observations from Mr. CHARLUSWORTII, who asserted that Wakefield should be made an assize town, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL repeated that the house already possessed all the information requisite. The just claims of the groat towns would be attended to. Mr. BOWYER supported the proposition for a third assize. After some further discussion, and a brief reply from Mr. ill`MAnow, The motion was negatived. MASTERS AND WORKMEN. Mr. MACKINNON rose to call the attention of the house to the report of the select committee of 1856 ap• pointed to inquire into the expediency of establishing equitable tribnnais for the amicable adjustment cf dif ferences between masters and operatives, and to move for leave t bring in a bill to enable masters and work men to farm councils cf cenciliation and arbitration. Mr. INGH EMI seconded the motion. Mr. WALPOLE reserved his opinion as to the details of the bill, but would not oppose its introduction. Leave was then given to introduce the bill. THE COUNTY FRANCHISE. Mr. LOCKE KING moved for leave to introduce a bill to extend the franchise in cnuuties in Eetglited and HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) Waits, and to improve the representation of the people. The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. When he last brought the question before the house, it PRIVATE BUSINESS. had been rejected by the small majority of 13 votes ; The London Dock Company Bill was read a third and, were it not for the chivalrous assistance rendered time and passed. on that occasion to the noble viscount the member for The f ollowing bil l s were further censi l ered and ordered Tiverton, then at the head o f th e G overn ment, by the to be read a third time :—Maidstone G as , Tr e nt Navi- honourable gentleman opposite, the bill would have oration, and Vauxhall Bridge Road. been carried by a considerable majority, for the noble SOUTH KENSINGTON MUSEUM, Sm. lord was only able to muster, including, himself, 31 sup • Lord H. LENNOX moved for returns of the porters of the Government. Since that time, the noble number of visitors to the Smith Kensington Museum lord hexing sustained a defeat, made his appeal to from its opening t o th e p re sent ti me , distinguishing the country on a question affecting the honour of the those days which are free, and those which are students' British fl ig. He selected as his rallying cry not the re days; also the numbers aetending the Museum in the form of the franchise, but a topic calculated to arouse the morning and the evening ; and, of the numbers who feeling of the British lion—namely, an alleged insult to visited the Museum at Marlborough-House during the the British fl lg. But the country soon turned its atter,- years 1854, 1855, and 1856.—Agreed to. tion from the China question and Mr. Commissioner Yeh EAST INDIA. (PATRONAGE, See.) to the subject of Parlia.mentary reform, and the measure Mr. J. B. SMITH move d f or returns, separa t e an d t h a t h e h a d su bmitted to Parliament found general sup in detail, of the patronage vested in the Crown, the port with the people. He did not bring the question Board of Control, and the Directors of the East India forward last year because the noble lord had promised to Company, both as regards the Home Government introduce an extensive measure of Parliamentary reform, and the Government of India in India. Arol, of which would involve an enlargement of the franchise. the patronage vested i n th e Governor-General of He hail hid some experience of ministerial promises and India, of th e G overnors of Madras and Bombay and he bad come to the conclusion that little faith was to be no-th-west Provinces, of the Commeeder-in-Chiet, and placed in them, however well meant. He did not bring the cmmanders of the forces of Madras and Bombay, this question forward in any sp ir i t o f factious hostilit y with the salari es an d allowances attached to evety to the Government. The objecti o ns to the measure had situation, office, and employm en t covenante d dis tin- resolved themselves into a very small compass,. One oh guishing the number of Europeans and natives employed jection was, that a measure of reform was forthcoming, in the uncovenanted service ; together with the retiring hut he felt sure from past experience, that Ministers could allowances and pensions in every following clan change, of the not undertake one for a forthcoming ses don. Another State connected with the Governme y nt of Ind . sificationa, via.: —ecclesiastical establishment, civil set. reckoned at two shillings each, under the s'in rupeesthat this was not the time for a objection butra raised that was, ivas t common to need to be met. vices, military services, marine department, d - tional establishments, and law appointments piecemeal ores are of reform ; , e uca- proposals, that this wag a Thenthere was the . objection of en urged against such connected but in the present feeling and temper cf the house the with the Queen's courts, THE MILITIA. only way in whit this question could be dealt with was Lord BURGHLEY asked the Secretary for War by introducing a small, honest, and just measure of this kind, which he preferred to large one s, possibly having a hether the Government would make corns allowance great deal of dishonesty them. e would to the captains of the 16 disembodied regiments of details • with which the house was familiar, as in H not go into on the bill, Militia, to compensate them for the losses they must he hail entered full to the statistics in times past. No sustain by their not being able to recover the debts from their companies, in consequence of their regiments being one had hitherto dared yiu to assail the class which he now proposed should be enfranchised. It was most anomalous suddenly disembodied ? that an individual who lived in a town and occupied a General PEEL said he intended to f )Ilow the prate- 101. house should havetbe franchise, while another inha deist of former y e ars i n this i ns t an c e . It was not the bitin,g a house nearly adjoining, but beyond the custom to make such compensation. (Hear, hear.) borough boundary, paying perhaps higher rent and VALUATIONS (IRELAND). larger taxes, should remain without a vote. There Mr. GROGAN gave notice that on this day fortnight was a sugeestion emanating from the right hon. seen he should move fur an address relative to the people of tleman the member for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham) Ireland being relieved from one-half of the expenses of that some insane ought to be taken to prevent faggot the annual valuation of that country. (Hear.) • voting, and he (Mr. L. King) thought it might be well CORRUPTION PRACTICES PREVENTION to adopt a 5/. rating. Previous to the last election, the ACT. house wool I remember, it was reported that the G evern- Mr. CROSS asked the Secretary for the Home De- merit had intended to allow the biii to be introduced pertinent whether it was the intention of her Majesty's with the intention of making any necessary amendments. Ministers to take any steps towards extending the pro- That understanding was deviated from on the ground t ß io e n s A ho c u t la wa sisi visions of the Corrupt Practices Prevention Act to mu- that the bill would not permit the introduction of any nicipal elections? Mr. WALPOLE said the Corrupt Practices Preven suchwai t p a g m , T d e ts , and it was alleged that it would be referred to a se r le y -- • 'tie time of the house to attempt it. The motion, introduce it, and then move that, it be urged for bill ; the excuse c; un l el ! r his consideration for amendment. however, was made t bring in the the Government sp7;t - , enoporting the measure in a committee of the I; e act w w o i l t e h h r o e u f r e e . select committee and afterwards discuss it was e pure fiction, for the bill itself had net been . at that nce H to e ptahrolluagmhetntthaeryy too ey e had better perfect th elections before they extended He hoped her Ms its proyisio t o a s f h t e e d d o U e ex lain n t i tt to h h m er at il e i r ej . esty's ,, la . te advisers, if the same provisionsmunicipal jeaty's present Ministers would not fall into Lord STANLEY of ALDIIRLY said he was unwill ing the debate should close without a few words from that side of the house. What now remained to com plete the equal rights and equal liberties of all the citizens of this great country was the admission of the Jew to representative, as well as to judiaial and other offices. There certainly was danger of a collision with the other house of Parliament, and even those great statesmen the Duke of Wellington and Sir Ri Peel did not object to be influenced by such considerations in conceding Catholic emancipation. The county of Clare then returned Mr. Daniel O'Connell, as the citizens of London now returned Baron Rothschild. There was something of danger in continuing their present course. He called upon their loriships to concede the question while they could do it with grace, and not postpone it any longer. Lord DUNGANNON said if their lordships were to be induced by any fear of the consequences of a collision with the other house to pass this bill, then the House of Lords would soon become to be considered as a mere register-office for the decisions of the House of Com mons. Earl GRA.NVILLE said it was desirable not to have a collision between the two 'louses of Parliament on a question of this kind. Opposition very frequently was Productive of benefit. It often caused delay in the early agitation of a question, and by the delay it occasioned gave their lordships and the country an opportunity of reconsidering and reflecting on the question with greater calmness than they could do under periods of excitement. He thought it, however, advantageous after lengthened periods of discussion on questions in the other house, con firmed by growing majorities in more than one House of Commons, that their lordships should give way to expe diency, and sacrifice their convictions, as was done by the late Duke of Wellington and Sir Robert Peel, in re ference to Catholic emancipation. He had heard no prac tical objection to the admission of Jews to Parliament, and he saw no reason why their admission to Parlia ment should un Christianise the legislature any more than the admission to civil offices and the rights of citizenship bad un-Christianised the country. He called upon the noble earl (Earl Derby) to point out clearly the course which her Majesty's Government intended to pursue in reference to this question. (Cries of " Divide, divide.") The Marquis of LONDONDERRY complained that their lordships had not been favoured with the opinions of the members of the episcopal bench on the question. It was a disgrace to the country to exclude the Jew by an act while they were doubtful about its meaning. The Bishop of CA.SHEL had as much affecticn for the Je a as any man, but he could never consent to bring into Parliament a man whose forefathers crucified our Re deemer, and who themselves vilified Him every day of their lives. Ile doubted if a good Jew would come into this house--(laughter)--and those who were desirous of entering Parliament he considered wore those whom, in popular language, were designated by the word "Jew," meaning men of doub' ful character. (Laud laughter.) Their lordships then divided. The numbers were— Contents Non-Contants ll9 Majority against the clause . 39 The clause was then struck ow. Clause 8 was also expunged. The other clauses were agreed to. The bill was then reported on amendments, and their lordships aejourned at 20 minutes to 10 o'clock. E V ENING, fault. The hon. gentleman concluded by moving for I leave to bring in his bill. Mr. BYNG seconded the motion, because he was anxi ous that a sound and comprehensive measure of reform should be passed; because it would enfranchise many towns and unrepresented districts ; and because he be lieved, by so doing, they would enlarge the area of re presentation by the enfranchisement of a large class of the community, honest and intelligent, who were en titled to the privilege of vat ng. (Hoar, hear.) The CHINCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I have no objection to urge against the purpose Lithe bill which the hon. gentleman proposes to introduce. I have no ob j ectisn to extend the franchise which is enjoyed at pre sent by counties, and I think an extension of the fran chise may improve its exercise. I have no prejudice what:: ever to the general purpose of the motion of the hon. gen tleman to extend the franchise in c unties in England and Wales, and to improve the representation of the people in respect of such franchise; but there are several considerations which induce me to think that the intro duction of such a measure may rather prove a source of embarrassment to those who seriously intend and wish to improve the franchise. We have heard from the hon. gentleman his description of his own bill which he seeks to bring in. He saysit is a measure "small, honest, and just," the tendency of which wi'l be to remove great ano malies. How stands the questisn of the general repre sent atien at the present moment in England? I speak from memory, but in my general results I am not wrong. Well, we have a certain number of members returned to Parliament frem those counties with whose franchise the hon. gentleman propesss to deal. We have 150 or 160 county members for England and Wales, and they are returned to Parlie.mcnt by something more than half a million of electors. We have, on the other hand, 320 bo raugh members, who are returned to Parliament by little more than 400,000 electors. Those who are Parliamen tary reformers and approach this great question in an impartial spirit will be struck with the impression that the balance between the city and county representation is not just, and it seems strange that half a million of electors should only return 150 or 160 members, while 400,000 electors should return 330 members. (Hear.) One might almost be disposed to say that this is one among the anomalies to which the hon. gentleman has referred. But what is the remedy which the hon. gentle man offers to us, ioecause he despairs that a great and comprehensive measure on the subject may be submit ted, and because ,he says he can only take a measure which is honest and just ? It appears to ms that the course pursued by the hon. gentleman will not remove the anomalies in the representative system which he complains of, and, to use the language of the hon. gen tleman himself, improve the franchise of this country. The house should consider well this question. If we are to agree to the motion on the grounds upon which the , hon. member has placed it we shall be sanctioning the supposition that tee hops of a general improvement of the franchise is impossible, and that the measure which we are asked to sanction is just, small, and honest. While we have a small number of members returned by large constituencies, and a large number of members returned by small constituencies, I find in the returns moved for by the hon. member himself the inevitable inference that if you make up your minds to deal with what the hon. gentleman calls the extension of the franchise in this country, you cannot deal wi.h it partially, and whatever may be the objections urged against comprehensive mea sures, I am fully persuaded that when dealing with the representation of a great people it is quite impossible by small, honest, and ju s t measures to effect anythiog but that which i s large in justice and vast in policy. Is the house prepared for the slate of things which the hon. gentleman contemplates ? At this moment, in the coun ties to which the hon. gentleman's motion alone refers, every member of Parliament represents 3,300 electors ; at this moment in the boroagh- , every member repre sents 1,280 electors. U n questionably there are boroughs where the preponderating influence is purely agricultural and also counties where the great weight of the influence is purely manufacturing, but that has nothing to do with the question. Here we have to consider simply why 500,000 electors should at the present moment return 160 members to Parliament, and why 400,000 elector, should return 330 members ; and a measure of Parlia mentary reform which we are told is " small, honest, and just," is brought forward, which is to aggravate all these circumstances, and increase the dispaoportion at present existing. I ask, is the house prepared to sanc tion such a proceeding? (Hear.) If there is, as I believe there is, a sincere desire on the part of the house to promote a just and fair settlement of this long-mooted and contested question, I cannot conceive how you can take a more retrogade course thin by adopting the mo tion of the hoe. member. lam not opposed to an ex tension of the franchise in counties. I believe that a large number of persons now resident in counties might be admitted to the exercise of the franchise with great advantage to the country.—(Hear, hear,)—but it is impossible to resist the conviction, with the informa tion we have already upon this subject, that if you deal with the county franchise you must also deal with the franchise of the towns. (Cheers.) I cannot appeal to the hon. member, as the noble lord at the head of the late Government might have dove, because I have no politii cal claim upon the hon. member, but I am bound, on the part of the present Government to state, in vindication of our position, and of the cause of truth, that the fair representation of the people in the House of Commons is a question which will undergo our deep and sincere consideration—(cheers)—but, I cannot for a moment hold out to the hon. gentleman the hope that it will be at any time my duty to submit to the house a scheme like that which he has brought before it this evening. It adopted, it would only be a partial measure, and one which must lead ;o great jealousy and public inconve nience. I cannot doubt that it would lead also to pro tracted agitation in the country. (Hear.) It appears to the Government that the quo tion of a fair and ade quate representation of the people in Parliament is one which must be considered as a whole. (Hear, hear.) It is one which must be approached in a calm spirit, in a temperate spirit, in a mood of mind very different from that which in days long past accompanied the agi tation for the last Reform Bill carried in that house. But still I cannot doubt that, with the knowledge which this house now possesses, and with the desire which exists in cll parts of the country and among all classes of the people, we shall come to a safe and practical solu tion of the difficulties by which the question is sur rounded. But, sir, I cannot think that we are dealing worthily with this great subject if we admit a bill like this, which its proposer has himself designated as a small, honest, and just measure, and almost as a final measure. I Mr. L. KING...—No, no. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—WeII, then, at all events, as a substitute, for a final measure— (murmurs from the opposition benches)--did not the hon. gentleman say he despaired of any other measure than this being.carried, because, he said, there was a general feel ing that no alternative would take place ? If the cir cumstances to which the hon. gentleman ref sra aro not well founded —if there be a prospect of dealing with the question fairly and honestly—then, I say, that the hon. member is not justified in pressing his bill at this time. I will not appeal to him on the grounel of any political claim that I may have upon his attention, to withdraw his bill ; but I am bound to say, representing the Go vernment, and on my own part, that I cannot sanction the bringing forward of a measure which, if carried, would inflict a greit injustice, and be a source of great embarrassment fee future legislation. (Oh, oh, and Miinsterial cheers.) On thelroueds, therefore, which I base stated to th e h ouse , I cannot assent to the intro duction of the bill, and feel it to be my duty to meet the motion of the hon. member by moving the previous question. (Hear, hear, oh, oh, and laughter.) Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, the right hon. gentleman has based his opposition to the bill of my hon. friend the member fey Surrey, upon two grounds. lie did not deny that the franchise in the oouaties might be usefully t x tended. He did not deny that those persons with 101. occupations were a respectable class and worthy to en j y the franchise. But the right hon. gentleman goes oft in the first place on a distinction which he is very fond of drawing, but a distinction which I always thought entirely devoid of foundation, namely, that the counties have a certain number of members and a certain number of electors, and that the boroughs have also a certain number of members and of electors. In the first place, I believe that the right hoe. gentleman is entirely mistaken in thinking that a straight line can be drawn between the counties and the boroughs. I believe that some of the counties—the metropolitan county and the county of Lancashire —ar e so inhabited by persons en gaged in trade and carrying on busineor in towns, that to all intents and purposes they constitute a town consti tuency. Oa the other hand I believe that there arc many boroughs in agricultural counties which represent little else than agricultural interests. (Hear, hear.) Therefore I contend that there is 1.0 sound or substantial ground for the distinction which the right hon. gentle man attempts to draw. I remember Mr. Canning saying that the line which separated parties was not a straight line, but a serpentine line ; so I say that the line which separates the constituencies of boroughs and counties is not a straight line, but a serpentine one. I believe it a happy circumstance for the country that it is so. In other countries th ere aro s h arp li nes drawn, but I think the mixture of interests and classes in this country is a great advantage (Bette.) If the arguments and theory of the right h on. gentleman were cor rect, they would prove that, by the Reform Act, a great advantage was given to the counties; becau3e, previous to the passing of that act, the number of county members for England were 80, and the number for Wa'es 12, whereas we in creased the whole number to 150. But we did not do that with a view to the exclusive advantage of the agri• cultural interest. So far from that, our main obj!ct was to increase the influence of the great towns, such as Manchester, Birmingham, and Leeds, certainly not to give teem any preponderating influence, but to bring the trading and manufactnring interests more nearly on an equality with the agricultural interest. (Hear.) If the theory of the right hon. gentleman were right, our pro ceeding in that case would have led to a very different conclusion. With respect to the number of electors, the right hon. gentleman Rays that there are 500,000 electors in counties and only 150 members. Well, but if you add to the number of the electors, you would not diminish, but add to the veight and influence of the county mem bers. (Hear.) But then the right hon. gentleman goes on to another argument, which, if I had heard it from my noble friend the member for Tiverton, I Wight per haps have been disposed to listen to. The right hon. gen tleman tells us that we ought to take the question as a whole. Well, I cannot find fault with that argument, for I used it myself seven years ago, when I introduced a reform bill. But we have bad some experi- nee dur ing the years that have elapied since then. I have in tredueed other bilis myself, but I found, as the right hon. gentleman will find, and as any hon. gentleman who may introduce such bills will find, that some diffi cult.; will arise from the very temperate and moderate -spirit in which the matter is proposed to be dealt with. • (Hear.) Though there might have been some inconve nience from the beat and sic fence which accompanied the agitation for the bill of 1831, yet it had this advan tage that the great majority of the people being in favour of the measure, as they were determined to have " the whole bill, and nothing but the bill"—it gave an im petus to the majority in this house, and enabled us to carry the measure in the other House of Parliament, On the other hand, there were some practical disadvan tages from the extremely temperate, calm, and dispas sionate consideration which the right bon. gentleman gave to it. In such times, when large measures were introduced for improving our representation, then the private interests in that house arose in their streng,th. Each section, or class, or intereA fund, or supposed themselves, injured by the proposed alterations they united to oppose ; all these sections club .ed their grie vances and their objections, and the result of their oppo sition was either to throw the measure out altogether or to throw such obstructions in the way that it practically came to the same thing. Sir, the last gill I withdrew proposed great and, as I believe, beneficial changes, but because it embodied a provision for the representation of minorities, which was exceedingly obnoxious to the hon. member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) who called it a trick, I experienced such an opposition that I was cim pelled to withdraw the bill. I was ex'remely enrorised at the objections raised to that particular part of the mea sure, and more so that the other portions, to which no objection was made, should not have been retained. But if these things were true, and if such are the difficulties attendant npon the introduction of a large measure, of which my bon, friend does not despair. but has great doubts —(a laugn)—is it not better to take the proposition of my hon. friend in itself, which I believe will, in practice, be found to be one which no person can object to, and which meets the approbation of a very large number of nersons of respectability, whose soundness of judgment few will be ready to dispute, and thereby extend the basis of our representation and strengthen our constitution. (Cheers.) By so doing we shall increase the confidence of the country, which is one of the great objects of a reform bill. (Hear, hear.) But then the right hon. gentleman speaks with a very natural doubt and hesitation with re gard to any particular measure of reform which he himself intends to introduce. Why, Sir, I have a very strong im pression as to what was declared by the present Prime Minister on taking office. He said, speaking in the bold and manly evey in which be is accustomed t express his views, that the question of reform had been kept too long dangling before Parliament, but beyond that he did not go. He took care to say that, if he came forward next session and said that he had no scheme to improve the existing state of the representation, he could not be taunted with having broken any promises or vi,,lated any pledges. (Hear.) If that is the case, and seeing that t is so difficult for a Minister with a large majority in this house, and without any great ardour in the country, to carry a reform bill, and add to that a Minister whose majority is doubtful, and whose mind is so extremely apathetic and lukewarm on the subject as that of the present Prime Minister, I must say that my doubts very much exceed my hopes. (Cheers.) I therefore think tl!e safe course for the house will be at once to accept this bill. (Hear, hear.) I think the one bird in the hand of my hon. friend the member for Surrey is preferable to the bird in the bush of the right hon. gentleman—(laughter) —and therefore I shall give my cordial assent to the in troduction of this bill. (Cheers.) Mr. LA.BOUCHERE should not have spoken but for the charge of insincerity against the Earl of Granville thrown out by she hon. member for Surrey. Thestatement of Earl Granville was that the members of the late Go vernment did not intend to support the bill and move amendments in committee, and it was alleged that this could not be so, as the bill had not been brought in. He repeated that it was true that they bad come down to the house with the intention of supporting the bib and moving amendments in committee, but they found that they could not move those amendmonts, and then they altered their course. The hon. member had intro duced a bill in the previous session, and the motion being in the same terms they had assumed the bill would be to the same effect. They were not now in precisely the same position—(a laugh)—but he thought they were justified in taking the coarse they had intended in the former case—(cheers and counter cheer.) —and he for one should vote for the introduction of the bill. (ChePrl and counter cheers.) Ile thought as to the question of a partial or general measure, be did not think either ab- solutely wrong or absolutely right. If he had confidence in the Government, ho would think it better that the matter should he left in their hands ; but he must say, with the noble lord the member for London, that he had no great confidence that a measure would be introduced next session which would be worthy the consideration of the house. (Hear.) The Government having already allowed a bill to be introduced touching the representa• tion of the people in this house, they might witho.,t in consistency have assented to the introduction of the bill; in fact, they had, as it seemed to him, debarred themselves from opposing it. His chief obj , ct in rising was to correct what he was pito sure was a misappre hension on the part of the hon. member as to the state ments of the Earl of Granville. Mr. J. H. PHILLIPS, referring to the observation of the nobie lord, that the greater number of voters would give greater weight to the representation, would like to ask the gentlemen who held the important officet of marshalers of divisions whether, when a division ran close, they cared more whether a voe, which turned a majority, was given by a member returned by 500 voters or by 10,000. He went into details to show the inequality of the representation, and expressed a wish that representation was more connected with taxation.. The tendency of the pressure of consti tuencies on the members was to increase expenditure. There was indeed a desire to decrease general taxes' ion, but to increase special expenditure. All the members for the dockyard towns, for instance, were lately obliged to vote for an injudicious and uncalled-for increase in the rate of dockyard wages, in defiance of the laws of prlitical economy, and interfering with the due opera tion of supply and demand. One of them, indeed, bad stood out manfully, and refused to sanction it, no doubt to the great diminution of his popularity with his con stituents, Anothe7 injurious action of the pressure of constituencies on their members was that there was a crowing disposition to what be should call giving the British Lion an airing. (A laugh.) That noble beast, however, could not go abroad without a great deal of expense—(hear, and laughter)—and some of his esca pades were more costly than they were worth. Mr. LOCKE said the point had been lost sight of in the debate. There bad been minute calculations as to the numbers of electors in counties and towns, but the real question was whether the persons who would. be enfranchised by the bill ware a proper class to be en trusted with the power of voting. Ile thought is was hotter to take such questions one by one. There were great difficulties in introt'ucing any large measure, which Could hardly be ex iected to give satisfaction to a large majority of the members. Some members considered the ballot a sine qua non of any largo measure that should be introduced. T h ey thou g ht that it was useless to give the franchise to a large number of persons with out the protection of the b a llot, and even that without the ballet it would be better to disfranchise. No objec tion had been rais ed to the bill on principle. As to the British lion being let loose, be was very glad of it, and the British lion bad the approbation of all real reformere. When they found that he had amongst his admirers at ties same time the noble ler the member or London, and the hon. mem ber for Aehton-under-Lyne, it might well be said that extremes met—(A laueli)—and when the British lime returned to his lair he midkt retire in comfort and satisfactior. Mr. KNIGIEETLEY, who addressed the h ouse i n a very low tone of voice, was understood to oppos e th e drat bill, and said at many rural districts were v er y inade quately represented , and that i f any places should be de prived of representation it was the unimportant aed nomination boroughs like Morpeth, Midhcrst, &o. Mr. CLAY said that the only obj ec ti on that had been raised was th at the bill- would increwe the exiting anomalies; bat that appeared to him to be a recommen dation, f ir it :had always appeared to him that the more glaring an ab-ase became the bett er was th e c h ance o f i ts being remedied. He did the members for the counties the justice to believe that they would not consider it any grievance to be elected by a large constituency ; on the contrary, he thnoght that the grievance would be on the part of the borough members. The fact that a mem ber represented a large constituency did certainly en hance the respect in which he was held in that house. The chief point: of consideration was, did the bill pro pose to admit a class deserving of representation ? Ho believed that i t slid, and theref me he should support it as an instalmen t of a large measure of reform. Mr. DENTINCK said the right lion gentleman the member for Taal nton had said that they ought to vote black and white:recording to the circumstances in which they were placed.. There was great caution in that de claration, but it was an extraordinary one. In this question an ant agonism had been created between borough and cow sty representation. The noble lord said that the influericei of a member depended upon the num ber of his conseit cents. What did that mean ! That a representative va ith a large constituency could give a vote equal to tivo. The noble lord the member for London repree Bated 20,000 constituents, and the noble lord the mem bar for Tiverton represented 200, and yet the influence of the two noble lords in that house was about balance , I. (Hear, hear.) No doubt the repre sentation visas i n a very defective state, but he was not prepared to giv hie support to this measure with a view to amend it, as ;he believed it would lead to no practical result. Mr. COLLEVS, amidst, loud cries for a division, raid the question they had to decide was whether the bill would effectually amend the act of 1832. He did not think it would, a ad therefore he could not support it. It was a very popular thing to propose to swamp the county constitut'ncies. If it was necessary to extend the county franc? Ilse, why did they not add the house holders in counties to the boroughs to which they were contiguous? 3Elt t was as anxious as any man to see a reform of that :ho use, but he could not consent to such a measure as tlsat 'which was now proposed. Mr. STANEi'.C)PE opposed the measure as being an attempt to swat a p the counties. Mr. L KIN CI replied, and said he did not intend this as a final meast tr. e, but merely as a step towards some greater measure s , by the present or some future Govern ment. The motion vest a then put, arid The SPEAK KR declared that the ayes bad it. No division ea s called f.)r ; and, amidst load cheers, leave was giver t too bring in the bill. PILOTS (ISLE OF WIGHT, &'.) Mr. CLIFF(f3A) called the attention of the house to the state of the saw affecting pilots in the I-la of Wight and Portsmoutri districts ; and moved for returns from the Trinity-hou is ',showing the rate of profits accruing to such nilet4. The motion was agreed to, after the assent of Mr. HENLEY, who r etnarked that the profits of the pilots wt re not en a rff . t3 as to demand reduction. WEIGHTS AND MEASURES. Mr. J. Loam a-ked wye to introduc , a bill to amend an act ars ,;h and Gth years of King William IV., cap. 63, relating; to weights and measures. The object WEDNESDAY APRIL 28, 1858 of this bill was to introduce an uniform system of weights and measures throughout the country. Thi-r principle had been infringed by the decisions of thy courts of law, urrier which the act in question had been interpreted. After Mr. MTANN, Mr. BASS, and one or two other members had expressed approval of the bill, leave was given to introduce it. CHURCH RATES. Mr. PULLER moved that this house will, to-morrow, resolve it,elt into a committee, for the purpose of con sidering the expediency of proviling for the repair of churches and the maintenance of churchyards, by sub stituting for church rates such an annual rent charge upon al hereditarnents in respect i , f which church rater may now bo lawfully assessed upon the occupiers thereof, as will most fairly represen' the total annual amount now raised by church rates; such rent charge to be a fixe and n if rrn poundage on the rateable value of such hereditarnents, and to be made a charge on the owners of the same ; the proceeds of inch rent charge in each diocese to form a central fund from which grants may be made towards the repair of churches and the main tenance of churchyards, and to be administered by a body of per-ions elected for that purpose. He contender*, at some length, that the subject was one for reasonable compromise. Ir, was the form in which the rate was levied of which the Dissenters had to complain, and that form he proposed to alter. Mr. WIGRA.NI seconded the motion. Mr. Bux.roN moved as an amendment that it was desirable that power should be given to make addition to tithes for the maintenance of churches, and that power should be given to churchwardens to place rentals on the pews. General THOMPSON seconded the motion. Sir J. TRELAWNY opposed the motion, as turning a contingent tax into a certain tax. The distribution of the central fund would lead to endless dispute. Mr. LYGON thought that Dissenters ought to be exempted from the tax. Sir G. C. LEWIS wished to state shortly why he coeid neither support the motion nor the amendment. (Hear.) He Lad an objection to the motion because it proposed a now universal and compulsory charge on the real pro perty of the country for the support of the church. The hon. gentleman asked the house to make it compulsory and universal, and not only that, but he proposed to take away its parechial character, and to give ita diocesan one. (Hear.) Tue resolution of the hon. member for New port was also a proposition for adding a charge on the real property cf the country. As the amendment stood at present, he apprehended that it could not be put according to the rules of the house; but apart from that, he could not agree to a proposition for making ae addition to the tithes without knowing something more as to its object. He thought they had to choose be tween the entire abolition of church rates or some modi fled ferrn of them. (Rear.) Mr. NEWDEGATE rose amidst lend cries for a division. It appeared to him that many members were anxious to consider the proposition of the hen. member for Hertfordshire. He did nut believe the house would reflect the feeling of the country if they did not take into consideration a proposition 'for sup• porting the fabric of the church out of the real pro perty of the country. Ho thought that each parish should be allowed to exercise a control over the rates which were levied, and with that modification he thought the proposition of the hon. member for Hert fordshire would be acceptable to many members on his side. 'mere were some members on the opposite side who w i s hed to see church-rates altogether abolished as a steppingstone to the die establishment of the church, but he was sure that there were many others who haft no such intention, and he hoped they would support the motion cf the hon. member f Hertfordshire. Lord J. RUSSELL said that he had already declared that he thought the proposition of the hon. member for Hertfordshire fair matter for consideration. He had examined his proposition since then, and felt bound to say that, the two objections urged by les right hon. friend seemed to be soiled objecti-ne. (Hear, hear.) He thought it objectionable to impose a ;ten , charge upon property which had been for a long tine exempted from the payment of church rates. He ale, considered it objectionable to place the control of the rate in the hands of a bedy in each diocese. As lorg as the charge existed,it ought to be a parochial one. (Hear, hear ) With regard to the subject itself, he had only to ray that he could not understand how they could have a national church establishment without some pro vhsion for the repair of places of wore-hip, (Hear, bear ) It did not seem to him to be reasonable to say chat they would have a provision for the payment of the ministers but none for the maintenance of the churches. (Rear, hear.) However, seeing the conte-ts and ill-feeling to which church rates gave rise, he was willing to li-ten to any proposition of a reasonable substitute. (Hear.) He felt great objection to the proposition of the right hon. gentleman, but he would assent to it rather than leave the question a matter of strife. He should feel obliged to vote again t the proposition for the absolute abolition of church rates. (Hear, hear.) He should also vote against the proposition of the hon. member for Hert• fordshire. Mr. WALPOLE thought that the Lion, member for Hertfordshire had clearly shown that the absolute abo tion of church rates was only a mode of putting into the pockets of the landlords a large sum that did not belong to them. (Hear.) He adopted that view of the ques tion, but at the same he thought the objections urged by the right hon. gentleman (Sir G. O. Lewis) were en n swerable. He would suggest to the right horn gentle man that he should bring forward the substitute he pro posed when sitting on the ministerial side of the house er)—in pert of which, he (Mr. Walpole) agreed, and from part of which he dissented. He dissented from that part of the plan which proposed that they ehould abolish church rates, because they were not now levied in certain places. He thougnt it weuid be a premium on agitation if they were to say that church rates were not levied in future where they were refused. But he so far aereed in the justice of that part of the plan which said that an opportunity should be afforded, notwith standing the Mortmain law, of making voluntary provi sion for the repair of the church fabric, that he regretted the proposition bad ever come before the house. He saw no objection against allowing persons who had con scientious objections to the payment of church rates to escane from the payment of them, such persons, at the same time, giving up their claim to the privileges which belonged to churchmen. (" Ii ar, hear," and "No, no.") Meantime, however, he could only say that he should oppose, with regret, the motion for going into committee of the whole house. Mr. ROEBUCK was not surprised at the proposition of the right hon. gentleman that his side of the house should aid the government in their functions and get them out of their difficulty. (Hear.) It the right hon. gentleman felt so strongly on the matter, and thought that the bill which passed the second reading was so detrimental, why did he not, in his character of a minister of the crown —( c h eers )— come f orwar d w i t h a proposition agreeable to his own feelings, and in accord ance with the principles he advocated. (Hear.) From this the right hon. gentleman shrunk, seed called upon his ride of the house to perform the duty. He (Mr. Roebuck) wee one of those persons who were not at all incle ett to .'o the duty of any one. The second reading of the bill for the abolition of church rates had passed the house, and he felt strongly inclined to think that the question would be settled that session. But they would listen to no compromise. (Hear.) One half of the parishioners throughout the country had refused to pay church rats-s, and yet the house was now asked to realse them a permanent rent charge on the country. If the question was to be argued as a political-economical ques tion, he should be quite prepared to discuss it at a time when it could be fully argued. Mr. WIGWAM ,xpreseed a hope that the hon. mem ber fir Herefordshire would take the opinion of the house on the resolution which he hail proposed. By the c , mmon law of this cenntry the obligation existed on parishes of maintaining the fabric of the church, and the principle of the rnolution was nothing more than the substitution in the plac3 of that common law oblige tier, o f a n annual rent charge. Mr. BUXTON having withdrawn his amendment. Mr. PULLER briefly replied, stating that he would not give the house the trouble of dividing. (Loud cries of Oh, oh, and No, no.) On the qu9stion that the motion be withdrawn there were loud cries of No, no, and the SPEAKER declared that the " noes ' had it. The hrtt , e then divided. The numbers were : For the motion Against it Mr. AYRTON, understanding that Mr. Lygon meant to move for leave to introduce a bill on church rates, moved the adjournment of the house. After a c ,inversation, Sir G. C. LEWIS suggested that as several orders of tin day stood on the paper, the motion fur adjourn , merit ought not to be pressed. Mr. WALPOLE said if they now took a division for the adjournment it was evident when they came back there would be other divisions, and it would be impos sible f,,r the hon. member to get to his motion to-night Mr. LYGON said he would postpone his motion unf to-morrow Chili day). THE POOR-LAW AMENDMENT BILL. Tbi3 bill was read a second time. CHELSEA HOSPITAL (PURCHASE OF LANDS' BILL. This bill was read a second time. EXCISE DUTIES BILL. This bill pa , sed through corn f,ittee. CUSTOMS DUTIES, NO. 2, BILL. Thi4 b►ll passed through committee. Mr. LOCKS KING'S bill for the ext-nsion of the county franctise was brought in and read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on the llth of May. The house then adjourned at five minutes to one. PAIRS ON THE ADNIIS'AION OF JEWS INTO PARLIAMENT. Against For Ifarewood, Earl Cllfden, V , set. Erne, Earl De Freyne, Ld. Galloway, Earl 'Vivian, Lnrd Rosslyn, Earl I', rtsmoulh,Erl. Manvers, Earl I;oxburrrhe, i , k. Clanearty, Earl but de Vala hide, Lord Bayniae, Lord Lothian, Marco. St. John, Lord Bedford, Duke Orford, Earl Mon-on, Lord Against For Man:l ?ld, Earl Kinnaird, Lord rimdiet, Lord Gra iard, earl Aylesford, Earl Pannaure, Lord De' , mere Lord Leinster, Duke Eglinton, Earl Conyngliam, Marquis IJrrsey, Earl Clare, Earl I ldlengall, Earl Itoseherry, Earl , Itichull,nd, Duke Doueginl, Marq. Methuen, Lord Broughton. Lord Maynard, Vint. Yarborough, Erl. Lon ford, Earl Exmouill, Viset. Lincoin, Bishop London, Bishop IStrathallan, Vise Carrington, Lord S bury, Bish n. Ailesbury, Marg. Westmeath,Mar Aberdeen, Earl Clanwilliam,Erl. Shelburne, Earl Vane, Elul Ravensworth,Ld Gray, Lord Poltimore, Lord Winchester, Mar Calllperdown, Drogheda, Mrqs. l Vliarnelitllt, Ld. Earl atradbroxe, Earl Radnor, Earl Ails 1, Marquis Carew, Lord Poulett, Earl Devon, Earl A.largavearlYr Blantyre, Lord Kilmaine, Lord Morley, Earl Eatl u aeclestield. Erl Leigh, Lord I Forrester, "Lord k lkl.md, Viset. Middleton, Lord Willoughby de Twe da:e.2Marq. auner,s, Lord Eresby, Lord Catiter..iury,Vise Enfield, Visa. GuildfOrd, garl Stratford, Earl PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION. HOUSE OF COMMONS-APRIL 27. CHURCHES AND CHURCHYARDS. lotion made, and question proposed, " That this house will, to-morrow, resolve itself into a committee, for the purpose of considering the expediency of providing for the repair of Churches and the maintenance of Church yards, by substituting for Church Rates such an annual rent charge upon all hereditarsents in respect of which Church Rates may now be lawfully assessed upon the occupiers thereof, as will most fair y represent the total annual amount now raised by Church Rates. The house divided—Ayes 51, Noes 17. AYES-54. flaring, T. Goddard, A. Robertson, P. tat . iurst. A. A. lleathcoate, Sir W. Rolt, J. Bennet, Capt. P. L'ollof d, R. Rust, James fentinck, Cr, Ingestrs, Viscount Sandon, Viscount flovill, W. . Knatchball, W. Scott, F. Irani ley- Nfoore, J. King litley, it. Scott, Majer , Irghley, Lorl Langton, W. G. Shirley, E. . ;arnac, Sir J. R. Lygon, lion. F. Stanhope, J. ecil, Lord .R. Mainwaring, T. Steuart, A. Cobbold, J. C March, Earl of Toilsmache J. Deedes, William Maxwell, J. Trefusis, C. oobbs, W. C. Miller, Taverner Vansittart, W. Du Cane, C. Miller, tearne Wigram, Loftus T. )u Pre, C. Newdegate, C. Wyndham, H. Egerton, Sir P. Parke, C. Wynn, Col. Emlyn, Viscount Pakenham, Colonel Yorke, E. r'arnham, E. Pennant, Col. E. TELLETLEI. Fellowes, E. Philipps, J. Puller, Christopher Gard, It.. Repton, G. Spooner, R. NOES-317. Adair, 11. Foljambe, Francis Naas, Lord Adderley, C. B. Fordo, Colonel Napier, Sir C. A:fir-Ellis, Hon. L. G. Forester, Col. Newport, Viscount ,gnew, Sir A. Forster, Charles Nicoll, D. A kroyu, E. Foster, IV. U. Nisbet, R. P. Alexander, J. k ortescue Hon. F. Noel, G. Antrobus, E. Freestun;Colonel Norris, J. T. .shley; Lord Gailwey, Sir IY. North, Col. J. ttherton, W. Galway, Viscount North, F. ,yr ton, A. Garnett, William O'Brien, P. It agwell, John , Gaskell, J. Ogilvy, Sir J. itailey, C. Glyn, (a. . Osborne, R. Baines, Rt. Hon. M. Glyn, G. Paget, C. Bail, E Goderich, Viscount Pakington, Sir J. airing, Sir F. Greaves, E. Palmer, R. :taring, T. G. Greene, John Pechell, Sir G. 'arnard, Thomas Greenwood, John Peel, Sir R. Bass, M. G. eer, Samuel Peel, Gen. Beach, W. Gregory, W. Perry, Sir E. Beale, S. Gray, Captain Philips, R. Beecrolt, G. Grogan. Edward Pilkington, J. Berkeley, F. Grosvenor, Earl Pinney, Col. Biddulph, Col. R. M. Gurdon, Brampton Portman, W. inges, Joins Gurney , Samuel Powell, Francis Black, Adam Hadfield, George Power, N. illackbarii, Peter Hall, Sir Benjamin Price, IV. Bolder°, Col. H. G. Hamilton, Lord Claud Proby, G. LI inhani-Carter, J. Hamilton, G. A. Pugh, D. Brady, J. HanOury, , Robert Ramsay, Sir A. Brand, lion. H. Handley, 11. Rawlinson, Sir H. Bridges, Sir B. Hankey, T. Rebow, J. Jrocklehurst, J. Hanmer, Sir John Ricardo, 0. Bruce, H. A. Hardeast,e, Joseph Richardson, J. Bruen, H. Hardy, G. Ridley, George .tuchtnan, Walter Harris, J. D. Robartes, T. it u.ler, J. W. li irtington, Marquis Roebuck, J. A. Bury, Viscount Hassard, Michael Roupell, W. Butler, C. S. Hatchet', John Russell, Lord J. Buxton, C. Hay ter, W. Russell, H. Buxto i, Sir E. N. Ileadiarn, T. Russell, A. Byng,, G. ii. C. Henley, J. Salisbury, Enoch Cairns, 11. Hill, Hon. R. Schneider, Henry lalcutt, M. Hodgson, K. Scholefield, W. Campbell, It. Hodgson William Seymer, H. Cardwell, E Hope, Alexander Seymour, Danby Cartwright, H. Hornoy, W. Shaft°, R. , Cavendish, W. Horsfall, T. Shelley, Sir J. Charles worth, J. C.D. Hudson, G. Sibthorp, Major Cheethain, John Hunt, G. W. Smith, J. B. Cholineley, Sir M. Hutt, W. Smith, M. Christy, Samuel Ingham, R. Smith, V. • Churchill, Lord A. Inglis, John Smith, A. Clai k, J. Ingram, H. Smith, Sir F. Clifford, C. C. Jackson, W. Smollett, A. „lillord, Lt. Col. H. M. Jerre's°, Sir J. Somerset, Colonel CANT, George Johnstone, H. B. Somerville, Sir W. Clive, R. Johnstone, Sir J. Stafford, Marquis Close, M. Jolhlfe, Sir W. Stanley, Lord Cogan, W. H. F. Jolliffe, Li. Stapleton, John Cole, H. A. Kendall, N. Steel, John ..,oliier, R. P. Kerrison, Sir E. Stewart, Sir M. Collins, T. Kershaw, J. Stuart, Colonel Cony ngham, Lord F. King, L, Sturt, H. Corry, 11. T. L. King, J. Sturt, C. Cowan, C. Kinglake, A. Talbot, C. Cox, W. Kingiake, J. Taylor, Colonel Craufurd, E. H. J. Kingscote, Capt. R. Taylor, S. Crawford, H. Vi r . Kiunaird, A. Tempest, Lord A. V. Crook, J. Knatchbull-Huguessen Thompson, General Cross, R. A. Knight, F. Thornely, T. Crossley, F. Knox, Col. B. W. Thornhill, W. Curzon, Viscount Laslett, W. Tite, W. Dalglish, R. Lennox, Lord H. G. Tomline, G. IJavey, R. Levinge, Sir it. Tottenliam, C. Davie, Sir H. R. F. Lewis, Sir G. C. Truman, C. Davison, R. Liddell, U. G. Turner, J. A. Deasy, R. Lindsay, W. Verner, Sir W. Denison, W. H. Lisburne, Earl Vivian, H. H. Dent, John Locke, J. Waddington, H. Dill wyn, L. L. Locke, John Walpole, S. Disraeli, B. . Lovaine, Lord Warren, S. Divett, E. Lowe, R. Weguelin, T. shod, J. • Lyall, seorge Weiby, W. Duff, M. Macarthy, Alex. Western, S. Duke, Sir J. M.,e'uiney, George Westhead, Joshua 'unbar, Sir W. 31`Cann, J. Whatman, J. Duncombe, A. Mackie, J. Whitbread, S. Dunkellm, Lord M'Clintock, John White, James Dunne. M. Maguire, J. F. Whiteside, J. Duttoa, Hon. R. H. Mangles, It. D. Whitmore, H. Ehrington, Viscount Mangles, C. Wickham, H. Edwards, Henry Manners, Lord J. Williams, W. Egerton, Law. C Marjoribanks, D. Willyams, E. Ellice, E. Marsh, M. Wilson, A. Ellice, E. Martin, C. Wilson, J. Eiphinstone, Sir J. Martin, P. Wingfield, R. Elton, Sir A. 11. Martin, J. Winnington, Sir T. Esmonde, J. Massey, W. Wood, W. Batcourt, T. Meigund, Lord Woods, Henry waits, T. W. Metier, John Wortley, Major Ewart, W. Miles, W. Wyndham, General Ewart, J. Mills, T. Wynne, W. E"ing, Crum Moffat, G. . Young, A. Fagan, W. Monereiff, J. Fitzgerald, T. Montgomery, Sir G. Fitzroy, Henry Morris, D. Foley, IL W. Mowbray, J. R. TELLERS. Trelawny, Sir J. Gilpin, C. Country Markets, [AVE ItPOO 6, APRIL 27. The arrivals have been fair this week of Indian corn, flour, and wheat, and of the two latter the greater pro portion is from France. The corn trade has been marked by inactivity during the week, millers and bakers havin g supplied themselves sparingly with wheat and flour. This inaction may in some degree be attributed to a change to nice spring weather, genial and fructifying rains, giving freshness to garden, field, and grove. Though the cheap ness of money induces importers to hold their stocks ra ther than submit to loss, there is no •observable tendency to speculate by other parties. A small business was the general result to-day. Thera was but an ordinary attend ance at our market this morning, with a steady sale for both wheat and flour. The only alterations were id per bushel advance on best Irish oats, and 6d per qr decline on white Indian corn. Full prices were exacted for barley, beans, peas, and oatmeal. LEEDS, APRIL 27. At our corn exchange to-day there wan a fair supply of wheat. The demand was steady, and the quotations about is over last week's rates for best qualities, and in some cases 2s for extra yellow Barley in less general demand, at rather under the prices of last week. In beans there was a good inquiry, as also oats; and other articles un charged. Averages for the week : Wheat, 42s 10.; d Oats, 21s 51d I Peas, 46s 10d. Barley, 36s 10dI Beans, 40s I.d I Rye, —s Od. NORWICH CATTLE-APRIL 24. Th© show of cattle to-day was very large, and a good attendance of buyers, but little business was done, and at the close fully one-fourth remained unsold. Fat beasts: Gs 6d to 7s 6d ; prime, 8s per stone ; being about same as last week. Sheep, 42s to 44s per head, and gocd store pigs, 18s to 245. Fat pork, Gs to 6s Gd per stone of 141bs; trade dull. COURSE OF EXCHANGE.-YESTERDA.T. mterdam 11 15 Gibraltar •• •• •... Ditto, three months .. 11 17 yy Leghorn .. 29 773( gotterdam ............ 11 17y,z Genoa ••...... 26 57% Antv, , orp •••••••••••••• 25 35 .- Milan •••••••••••••••• Bruisels 25 35 Venice••••••••••••••, ilaTibnrgh •. • •••• 13 6% Napier. •••••••••••••;..... 417 i •• Palermo ••• . Paris•••• •••• •• •• •• 25 10 Messina ... ••• 125 N Do. hree months .. 25 374 Lisbon .......... •••• bIW ............. 25 37% Oporto ..............•• 51% Bourdeaux 1110 Janeiro...... Frankfort-on- ••.. 118% Buenos Ayres •• • .... Berlin fp* •• •• •• •• ••• • • 'New York,6o days' sight --. Vienna .... 10 35 Philadelphia • ..... ..- frieste.• .• .• •• .• •• 10 36 PRICES Or 5u LION, PEA OAS Petersburg .......... 35 .Foreign Gold In Bars £3 17 9 Vf ri d..••• • • •• •..• • 49 'Portugal Gold Coin .• 0 0 0 a a aj z 49% 'Mexican Dollars .... 0 01 0 -- • .. New Dollars ....•. 0 0 0 Seville•• At a meetirg of the Cammittee of Bankers, held yea• terday, it was re:•olvel that, in the event.;of the penny cheque stamp becoming law, the cost cf such stamped cheques shall be charged to eir customers. IRTH S. HOGG—On the 26th inst., at 5, Chesbam-street, the lady of Lieut.-Colonel Hogg, Ist Life Guards, prematurely, of a daughter, stillborn. HOLLAND—On the 2 ith inst., at Ashbourn, the Hon. Mrs. Frederick Holland, of a son. LARNACH—On the 26th inst., at 21, Kensington Palace. gardens, the wife of D. Larnach, Esq., of a daughter. STEWART—On the 26th inst., at Penlu Cottage, Devon port., the wife of C a pt a i n Willi am Houston Stewart. C 8., R.N., FIJI S. Impregnable, of a daughter. G I ANE—On the 27th inst., at 7, Albert-terrace, Islington, the wife f James Gams, Esq., of a son. YOUNG—On the 26th inst., the wife of Charles Vernon Young, Esq., solicitor, Arbour-square, Stepney, of a daughter. MARRIAGES. COLE—DAWN—On the 20th inst., at Walcot Church, Bath, the Rev. Robert Eden Cole, M.A., eldest son of Lient.-Colonel Cole, to Frances Elizabeth Christiana, eldest (laughter of the late Robert Dawn, Esq. MORRISON—RUCK—On the 21st inst., at St. Giles', Cam. berwell. Frederick, youngest son of W. Morrison, Esq., of Peckham-rye, Surrey, to Mrs. Mary Ann Ruck, the granddaughter of Th omas Rowland Legg, Esq., of Win chelsea, Sussex. DEATHS. DOUGLAS—On the 23d inst., at Clifton, Major James Douglas, 60th Royal Rifles, eldest eon of General Sir James Douglas, K.C.8., aged 40. GASTINEAU— On the 26th inst., at Camberwell, Thos. F. Gastineau, late of the Bank of England, aged 78. HART—On the 22d inst., at Mitcham, Mr. Henry Hart, aged 80. FIALL— Oa the 22d inst , at the Vicarage, Hatfield Broad Essex, the Rev. T. F. Vail, ALA., aged 4- 3. Slooßsou —Killed, at Lucknow, on the 11th March, while leading an assault, William Robert Moorsom, Captain 13th Light Infantry, Quartermaster-General of Division to Generals Havelock and Outram, eldest son of Captain Moorsom, C.E., of Satis House, Rochester, aged 23. PALMER—On the 24th i ns t ., at 'id, Eaton-place, William Delmer, Esq., of the Inner Temple, second son of the late George Palmer, Esq., m.p., Nazing-park, Essex, aged SG. SIIDLOW—On the 25th inst., John J. J. Sudlow, Esq., of Heath Lodge, Weybridge, Surrey, and 38, Bedford-row; Lc n ion, aged 70. ',01:;"DON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG • of Nc. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Oilice, No. Strand, in the Pee.zim.; of the Savoy, in the counly of Iliatilesex, Wednesday, April 28, 1858. ON 1 Th , hours Sta lerles to b, dilly and Evei 11Ills Clrc adm Intn num corn Ban rem thll dial a-h Pit,