The Sun. — London, England, 1858-04-20 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON TUESDAY E V ENING, APRIL 2O, 1858 HOUSE OF GOWNlONS.—(YEstrneena.v.) The SPEAKEI took the chair at 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following private bi 14 were read a third time and paised:—:-AberdeanWater, Folkeetone, Water, Liverpool Exchange, Liskeard and Looe Union Canal CompanY's Railway; Merthyr Ty,ifil Water, and Selkirk and Gala shiels Railway. The following private bills were real a second time : Acton's Naturalization Act Amendment and Limerick and Foynes Bail e ay. CO ‘IMISSIONS IN THE ARMY. Mr. LAURIE asked the Secretary for War, whether the officers of the army ought to be suLjacted to pay ment of a tax upon their commissions granted by her Majesty ? General PEEL said there was no tax on the commis elone, but there was a stamp. NEW MEMBER. Mr. LEYROY took the oaths and his seat for the 111.i vessity of Dublin in the room of the Right Ifor. Joseph Napier, elevated to the Lord Chancellorship of Ireland. TELEGRAPH COMMUNICATION FROII INDIA. Sir W. FRAZER nave no:ice that he should, on an early day; call attention to the cl.f active conveyed from India by the eleootic telegraph, especially wi h reference to the names of officers and others killed in action, &c. REAL PROPERTY COMIISSIONERS. Mr. HEADLANI asked the Secretary for the Home Depertmeut whether it was the intention of the Govern ment, during this session, to introduce re bill to carry into effect the recommendations of the Real Pr )perty Cominiisiont ? , Mr. WALPOLE said he should take occasion on nu early day to state the views of the Government thereon, THE BUDGET. The house having resolved itself into a committee of ways and means, Mr. FITZROY in the chair, Toe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER roar to make his financial statement. He sai.l,—Sir, since the rightehoe. gentleman the member for Radnor explained in committee the ways and means ha intended to pro vide for the service of the year just terminated a very great change has taken place in the condition of this country, and I am sorry to say also in the well-beieg of the people. At the ceeeneneement of the year 1357, and indeed during all the precedieg sears, our exports had continually end considerably increased. The nturias of our exports were favourable—l might say highly favour able—and, although a high rate of discount prevailad generally at that period, it was no obstacle to the com mercial enterprise.of the ceuntry. But towards the e nd of theyear 1857 this prospect of continued prosperity was clouded and disturbed. The American panic acted very distressingly upon cur own commercial condition. At that time there was a monetary and mercantile crisis —which, whether we look at the number of those wire failed or the amount for which, they failed, lies not in se verity been exceeded in even_ our commercial history. The minimum rate of discount in the .month of Novena ber was 10 per cent. That rate prevalledalmost through out December. At the very close . eft the year the rat was 8 per cent. ; at the eed of January 4 per cent. When 1 acceded to office the rate was that which now prevails —3. per cent. rhe effect of this commercial disturbance and distress was very g reat upon the revenue. I t i s a very significant circumstance that at the end of the first three quarters of the financial year_ viz,, the 31st of Dec. last—the judicious and temperate eztimeto of my right hon. predecessor was not even fultided, but strange to say, during the last quarter o f the financial year, from the 31st of Dec. to the a.cl of March—in the great itcuna of Custecus, Excise, and Stamps it, was not only fulfilled but exceeded by (peaking in round numbers)l,soo,ooo/. am extremely unwiiling on these occasions to trout le the committee unnecessarily with st atistical details, but I have here a slight memorandum of the effect of - the monetary crisis upon the income of the country, which they will perhaps permit me to road. The quarter Ceding the 31st Dec., 1857, compared with the similar iMers of the preceding year, shows a total decrea se in Customs, Excise, and Stamps, of 7660006 ; but the quarter eadiog the 31st March, 1358, shows a very dif ferent P en_t_res i4th n . l . t compared year quart with the corresponding quart er of thoset re it e ems. A.,*ln , si namely, an increase of 1,144,000/. in u t, ) , e , iathis topic, perhaps the com -"mittee wilt think ems best opportunity to state ih • ,effecie of the.marietary eree our export trade. Ex• . porte in almost an articlesfe e ll n p o olf in the last quarter of _1357. 16 the nine months 30th Septemb r, i l c e d e c lit t nir exports, .1857, the increase in the jeclare n d p g preceding compared with the corresponding year, was 121 per cent. _ln the 10 months endingtne 31st nabe of October that increase had decreased exactlylr per cen t. Io the 11 mont hs endin g the 30th N ov • ex ports bad decreased 8 p er cent.; and in t h e 12 months our ending the 31st December they were 5 1 _ 1 per cent. below ' those of the preceding year at that period. Although it is not advisable to load financial statements with static. tical details, the committee will, I think expect, and deem it convenient, that I should place before them the general result of our exports, imports, trade, arid f, n but aviga'ion. im- It is I be will, in doing so, avail myself of a brie very portant statement which I have drawn up. , lieve, the only document of the k ind with which I reed trouble the committee. It is a statement of the exports and imperts of the Uited Kingdom, anof the tona e of British and foreign n vessels in different I yeare. will . - take the year 1853—the year before the war—and the years 1855, 1856, and 1857. The total declared value of the exports and manufactures of the United Kingdom in 1853 was, in round numbers, 99,000,000/. In 1 585 the declared value had sunk to 9 5 , 500 , 000 /. ; is 1856 it had risen to 116,000,000/., and in 1857 it had stillfurther risen to 122,000,0001. In 1853 the exports of textile fabrics amounted to 52,000,0001. • in 1855 to 51,000,000/. ; in 1856 to 59,000,0001. ; and in 1857 to 61,000,0 00 /. The exportation of metal fabrics in 1853, the year be fore the war, amounted to 19,500,0001. ; in 185 5 it o sa nk to about 18,000,0 001 . ; in 1856 it rose to 23,500, . ; o and in 1857 it reached 26,000,0001. The real value of 000 ,00 the total imports into t he United IKingdomanindliB 5 n 5 1s 85 ; i n 1856 172, 143,000,000/. ; o tton for consump 0/. ; 187,000, 0001 . T he im p orts of raw c t7i4o6n,oao.o7ononotibeds. ;inintll7ss7taor 7b67ef,ooroeo,othoeolwo.r: in 1856, to 837,000,0001 be. In t 01858377 Br itish,oo OO t O o l u b n s . a ; g e and am in o 1857, to 9,000,000 tons ; and n nted foreign to 6,000,000 tons. In 1855 British tonnage was still 9,000,000 tons, and foreign remained about 6,000,0001. In 1856 British tonnage reached 11,000,000 tons, and foreign about 7,000,000. In 1857 British tonnage had risen to 11,600,000 tens, and foreign to 7,400,000. The total amount of tonnage be fore the war was 16,380,000 tons, and in the last year 19,072,00 0 tons. Having placed before the committee this general view of the condition of the trade and navi gation of the country, I will, with their permission, pro ceed to what is ,the real business before us to-night,— namely, to consider our financial position, and to ascer tain clearly the charges upon the revenue of the country, and the means at our command to meet them. Since the commercial crisis raged wtih a fury which alarmed the whole kingdom I need scarcely remind the house that there has been a considerable restoration of confidence, and there are at this moment many circumstances which must conduce to the increased prosperity of the country. The rate of interest is very low ; capital is abundant, money is cheap, and the price of the principal necessa ' ries of life and of the chief articles of consumation is much lower than it was during last year or the pre oeding year. I should, not, however, be doing my duty to the committee if I concealed from them my own con viction, founded upon information which has been at my command, that altoough the general condition of the country is at this moment sound, and al though there has been a restoration of confidence and there are numerous indications of improvement, that we are not justified in indulging the belief that there will be a rapid recurrence of that spirit of speculative enterprise which has prevailed of late years, and which has un doubtedly furnished very beneficial contributions to the Exchequer. I will now proceed to state the estimated 1 expenditure for the year 18619. The charge for the funded and unfunded debts I place at 28,400,0001. The committee will observe that there is an increase upon that charge to the extent of 150,0001. This has been occasioned by the liquidation of the 2,000,0001. of Ex chequer-bonds last year, by some diminution of the rate of interest upon Exchequer-bills, and by some opera tions of the sinking fund upon the public debt. The next item of expenditure is that for the permanent charge on the Consolidated Fund. That is an item which, I am sorry to say, I have felt it my duty to increase. Last year the charge wag, I think, 1,7Y0,0001., hut I have not felt justified this year in placing the amount at less than 1,900,0001. I have felt it my duty to make an in crease in this item in consequence of the compensation which the house awarded in a moment of almost reckless liberality to proctors and other officials connected with the ecclesiastical courts. (Hear, Lear.) The charge for the army, including the disembodied militia, and reduced by the amount' stated the other night by my right hon. friend the Secretary for War, will be 11,750,0001. The charge for the navy, including the packet service, which has been reduced by my right hon. friend the First Lord of the Admiralty by some 300,0001., will be 9,860,000/, The miscellaneous civil services, which last year iimenuted to 7,400,0001., are not at this moment ere tirely settled. There has been cowidsrable difficulty in getting in these estimates, and in examining and revising them, bet I have no hesitation in saying that I do not estimate this item at more than 7,000,0001. for the pre sent year. There will, therefore, be a reduction under this head, as compared with the charge last year, of 400,0001. The committee wilt allow me to make a few remarks upon this item. There is at all times a very great cics'eta to reduce the amount of the Civil Service Estimates, which were f otmerly known as tha Miscellaneous Estimates. We often find that hon. gen tlemen who are' perfeCtly ready to support a con siderable expenditure for what are called the great services, loudly demand that economy should be prac tised in the miscellaneous estimates. If, in the vindi cation of their estimates, the Government appeal to the State necessity which requires the maintenance of a large establishment, they are always told, "There are the miscellaneous estimates ; that is the item upon which you ought to economise. If an army must be maintained upon a great scale—and if the navy—the national and favourite service—must be kept up, at el! events the miscellaneous estimates contain some extra vagant items which require excision by the financial knife, and that is the means by which economy must be practised." Now, although the miscellaneous estimates are nut yst upon the table, I wish the House to con• eider the nature of those estimates. No. 3 under that head is the estimate fur law and justice, and the amount has increased considerably every year. No. 4 relates to the subject of education, a question which excites the deepest interest in this house. That item has ativaeced in amount, year by year, with a giant's pace. (Hear, hear.) I don's mean, on an occasion like the present, to express an opinion one way or the other as to the policy of this expenditure. My business to-night is to give the committee clear and cornpl:te information as to the financial position of the country, but it is ncc-s -airy fur me, in illustrating the system of cur expendi ture, to call attente Ai to the nature of the ini,cellauecus estimates. I will take the item for education, I befit se L at!jwiuse the first vote for that object W 1,3 passed by the house, about 20 years age', its amount sea not more than 30,000 i. In 10 years the vote had reached the sera of 248,000/. Ten y ea rs more have passed , and the x p e nditure under this heal, for England and Ireland, including the schools of art, w li for the present year be not less than 1,000,0001. sterling. I don't say we have n A been perfectly right in pursuing the course which ti-e house has hitherto taken in this re-pc t ; but I think the house ought clearly t i understand what they are doing. And don't let it be supposed that the Civil Service E.ti mates, which have been constantly inci rasing, can he re duced in a reckless manner, when under that branch of ixpenditure there has been a great system gradually de \ velopieg itself, which in a very short time will demand the outlay of a great department. When I saw the amount which this year would be incurred under the head of education—when I remembered that regularly every year there had Lee i a large augmentation in the votes for that object, I fait it my duty to form some opi nion of what would be the future of this growing branch of our outgoings, and of what means we have of con trolling this expenditure, or of ascertaining generally the relation in which that department would be placed to the Exchequer of this country. New, alter having ore• mined the suhject, and giving uo opinion, I beg the com eisititeleishtemoebnts,ervt,eu,tupononlythaenxpi,omliseythoart i m ho p ee li g e e y n c t i l f e u ti n s should clearly understand the responsible position they occupy in reference to this matter, it is my deliberate conviction that a system is now rapidly developing itself in this department of war expenditure which shortly wid arrive at an amount ( f at least 3,000,000/. or 4,000,0001. Aar! I think the time has come when the Louse should calmly review the course they are pursuing in this re spect, and comprehend the liahiiity they are incurring. (Cheers.) Sir, the item for the Rev4nue Department is 4,700,0001. The total expenditure for the various (e partrnents is 63,610,000/. There is a liability for the Wer Sinking Fund of 1 500,0001, besides 2,000,000/ , f Exchequer Bonds which mu t be liquidated in the early part of n; xt month. Thus the total charge for the yesr ,1853 59 is 67,110,0001. I now proceed to estimate the resources with which we are to meet there liabilities. I will therefore give our computation of the revenue for 1858-59. The e4imates of my predecessor for the Cue toms was 22,350,0001., and the sum paid into the Exchs quer was 23,109,0001. Now, in forming an estimate of the probable return from the Customs fur this year, we must, in the first place, observe that, although the amount paid under this bead into the Exchequer was 23,109 ; 000/ , the net receipt of this department for the year was 23,289,0001., Or, hot to perplex the committee with odd numbers, 23 XOO,OOOl. That difference be tween the net receipt of the Customs and the sum paid ir.to the Exchequer was occasioned by certain advances ebish were mainly owing to the changes rendered neces sary in consequence of the great revolution decided upon by this house of ' paying the gross revenue into the Ek chequer. Therefore, in calculating what the Custom , may produce this year, tie must really take as our basis the actual net receipts, not the amount paid into the Exchequer, which was lest.ened in its pas;:age thither hy the sum of 200,0001., fur which that department will not be rrtaeh es liableum ltbeo rf that bin the xteths huii anotheren:aeicst.etieortdehmuyegsmerlaed: great buoyancy. t 1 iclbeco l usem a o3tyu c ob. It o : trn.s n rte s :),: i i,ee d a.al e rriwnge panic the manu di must also s o las h os a e h r ro t es beerythhave a ll able to consumption. Capital is abundant, c‘ulir3t n rin) :o ua n ar e e y rfe c am h v e oc ai - , - bread between 40 and 50 p_e a r s e v e e n r t. lower in price than it was, and of sugar, which year, we have the prospectw of ver y high u scarce tat its cost has fellers considerably —so much, indeed, as per cwt. In fact, there is a combination of cause=s at work which, under ordinary eircusestance& would all stimulate consumptior. We must further remember that there is one great iefluence calculated to be most ad vantegeous to . theftEeixcile benefit hequer c Exchequer—viz., that great the country remis sioneuntry isn of taxation now begxiaittiring to which the house determined upon last year. NC) doubt, when the revenue rallied at the end of the last quarter of the past year, that result was to he attributed in some degree to the restoration of con fidence,, and the gra dual, even rapid, decline in the value of m ousy. But it is impostilels to shut our eyes to the confusion that what hasmainly sustaried stud r revenue—what has supported an ma d even st i mule consumption, at a tints when there were great acon corn merci 1 tli-eurbance and depre,sion, has been the ti of that 9,000,C00/. of remitted taxation which was brought into the pockets cf the p eo p le, and brought in their pockets only towards the end of the year. Because the committee will recollect that, although the Govern ment, influenced by the feeling of the country and the determination of this house, remitted the 9,000.0501 produced by the war income-tax at the commencemeht of the year, six months elapsed before the relief could be f ce e on it u b t y ry th p e ai p d ub th li e c, wa ow r ing to the manner in which th e income-tax is collected. Fur the first six months th e 91., and it was only at the latter end of wer e e e t xa h np e de ,y i eenare when,ee a , t st ho t ahte much s period d edni disturbance u h r e a the aen all eo t n h a sn i sudmd depression s en t pg r r a pe s s s oswiex isted,oel pourer of the nation was courted by the public having at their command this great remission of taxation. And I think I may say, in Parking, that this is a sufficient vindica tion of those who counselled at that time the expediei oy of reducing the burdens of the country to that amount. , Now, we shall reap the great benefit of that measure in 1 our Customs' duties this year. I should net be acting fairly to the committee if I did not state that, though the Customs last year produced 23,289,0001., that amount was swollen by a large amount paid for tea duties in April, 1857, which belonged to the preceding year, in consequence of the alteration of those duties. It would I not be right to omit from our calculation that 400,000/. paid for tea duties ought really to have been included in the return for 1856-57. But, taking all these circum stances into consideration—taking the amount last year realized upon Customs, notwithstanding the commercial crisis, at 23,300,0001. in round numbers—allowing in my estimate for the present year a diminution in the tea duties of about 200,0001. —calculating the produce of those duties upon the amount which has been and pro bably will be consumed by the public—deducting from that amount 3,500,0001 b. to meet the extraordinary accession to the Exchequer to which I have referred —aud remembering also that as far as this article is concerned, the prospects of the tea trade are extremely favourable, there having scarcely been any period at which the supplies were more promising, I think I am justified in placing the amount of the Customs at 23,400,0001., or 100,0001. more than they yielded last year. I now come, sir, to the next great source of supply to our re venue—the Excise, which is estimated by the right hon. member for Radnor at 17,000,0001., and which, notwith standing all the distress of last year, produced 17,325,0001. This item I have ventured, after the ereatest consideration, and guided by what I believe to be the best information, to put at 18,100,000/., the Ex cise being subject to all those beneficial influences which act upon the Customs, and which, like the Customs, has since the great remission of taxation and the reduction of the price of money and all other commodities, exhi bited the. same elastic and buoyant character. The next article is Stamps, which were estimated last yeal. at 7,450,0001., and realised 7,416,000/. The stamps are a branch of our revenue which is acted upon by all the cir cumstances which also influence those departments de pending upon the consumption of the country. The state of she mercantile world acts very quickly upon the reve nue arising from stamps. The stamps suffered very much during the commercial crisis and the period immediately subsequent to it, and they have shown the same elas ticity as the Customs and the Excise. It is also to be remembered that the succession duty will have contri buted much more to the revenue than it kis hitherto, and therefore I have taken the stamps at 7,550,0001., which is exactly the amount fixed by my predecessor in his statement of last year, when he ventured to make a prospective estimate of the year in which we now are. The next item is Land and Assessed Taxes. The esti mated revenue from this source was 3,150,0001., —the actual produce is 3,152,0001. ; and, considering the great number of new houses which have been built I have put it at 3,200,0001. We now come to the Pro perty and Income Tar, which falls this year to 5,1. in the pound. The first half of the year it is at 7d., and the second half at 5d., and the produce of the tax I have therefore put gat 6,100,0001., which is the rate at which it has always been put. The next item is the Post-office. The estimate for the Post- , ffiee was 3,000,0001., but it has only paid into the Exchequer 2,920,000/. That however, was occasioned by similar circumstances to those which I have mentioned as having an influence upon the Customs' revenue. The Post-office had to advance considerable sums to its de partinents, which form a sort of fluctuating balance, and which will not occur in future years. The revenue of the Post-office, therefore, is not to be measured by its present produce, 2,920,0001., but I am assured by the highest authority that I may place it at 3,200,0001. The next item, the Crown lands, were estimated at 265,0001., they produced 277,0001. ; I place them at 270,0001. The 1 last artic'e is the miscellaneous. This was estimated last year at 1,200 0001. the produce last year was 1,600,0001., and I have placed it at 1,300,0001. It would be in my power to explain ail the items of which this head of revenue is male up. I only refrain from doing so lest I should weary the committee, but having gone through them all carefully I think I may, without the slightest apprehension, place them at that sum. I have shown that the expenditure and liabilities of the year amount to 67,110,0001., and I have estimated our revenue at 63,120,0001. ; there awaits I.IP, therefore, a deficiency to be made up to the amount of 3,990,0001. I have no in formation as to what may have been the expectation of the committee on this point, though I know from many quarters and by many means what is the expectation of the country ; but whether the committee thinks this an overwhelming or only a vast deficit--it is, at all events, a deficit which should make us pause and consider the mode in which to encounter it. Eut I may perhaps be permitted, before entering on this consideration, to wake a single observation upon the deficit ; and it is one which ought to be consolatory to the country. This deficit, however vast it may be, has not been occasioned by any felling off in our resources. (Hear.) I don't kno N ho iv I could place that more clearly before the committee than by assuming ter a moment—l won't say that I had the same resources at my command that my predecessor had, far he had extraordinary resources at his command—but that there had been no cessation of any taxes this year which were in force last year. I would suppo,e for a moment that there was not that reduction in our revenue which , has been occasioned by the income tax fading from 7d. to 53., and the consequence would be that ear revenue would be 1,063,0001. greater in amount. The deficit, then, would be about 3,000,000/., and if we deduct from that the sum made up by the debt which we have to pay, amounting to 3,500,0001., it follows that, it we had no engagements to meet, and if we bad no cessation of texatien, instead of a deficit we should have a surplus of 500,000/. (Hear, hear) Therefore, in dealing with , this very grave and serious subj set, it is a source of con solation to us that this is a deficit which, notwithstand ing the sharp fortunes experienced by the country during the year, has not been occasioned by any dimi nution in our resources. I propose to consider this de ficit under two heals. I will consider first, the amount of deficit which has been occasioned by ouratuderteking to pay off debt, and in the second place, the amount which has been caused by a cessation of taxation. I t appears to me that this will be the simplest and the itio..t kite]. igible manner of treating the subject. Fee', thee, with regard to that amount of the c'efien -3,500,000/ , which is occasioned by our engagement to pay off debt. The first item to which I wish to call the attention of the committee is the IV: r Sinking Fund, to the amount of 1,500,0001. Tile committee is aware that irrespective of the War Sinking Fund there is a Gene )al Sinking Fund Act which is in operation. Tnirt y years ago the system of sinking fana that prevailed in teis county was to allot a cerolin fixed sum, without any refsrence to the state of the revenue, to the pay meet of deb`. In the heat of the great war the House of Commons pas ed a resolutien, that every year 5,000,0001. " witnout fail"—those were the words, I believe—should be apportioned to the redemption of debt ; and that system, the amount reserved being more or less in amount, but the principle being the same, pre vailed until the year 1829 Thai t-yetsin utterly broke down over and over again. It was false in principle and most injurious in practice. In 1829 a committee was appointed to consider the whole investigation. That coremit:ce investigated the subject with great asuinen and depth, and it recommended the adoption of the only sin std principle on which a sinking fond ought to he based—vx., the application of the surplus revenue of the country to the liquidation of debt, to be ascer tained and apportioned every quarter. In the course ef the laet year, when loans were incurred, the house )heught fit to recur to the old system upon e bech Flak mg funds were ostahlhshed—viz , allotting a fixed sun), without any reference to the state of the revenue, to the liquidation of debt ; and while they recurred to the old system, with strange inconsistency I think, they did not eupirsede the new one which in 1829 had been este 'dialled in its stead, aid which was founded on a toially different principle. That measure did not pass without discussion in this house. Objections were raised to it by 1 persons of very great authority. There was a debate . f some length, and there was a division. At the moment it appeared to ma that the Government were not much enamoured of their own plan, or cenfi lent in the policy which they w ere recommending. The house thought fit, mainly influenced I think by one who upon such sub jects, if riot indeed upon all subjects, addresses the house with authority—my hen. friend the member for Hun tingdon (Mr. T, Bering) to agree to this revival of the old principle of the sicking fend. But my. hon. friend the member for Huntingdon, when he recommended I that curse, recorienended it for eniicial reasons. He said, " We are now, or soon shall be, in a time of per fect peace, and it is not until we are at perfect peace that this sinking fund is to come into operation. There fere, on the whole, I think it wisest to secure the liqui daion i f debt incurred in war during a time of profound peace." Whether we ars now in a time of pelf .ct peace I can hardly presume to deoide, lest I might introduce into this cliscussion, which should of all discussions be most calm and temperate, elements of angry controversy. It is very likely that my noble friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, might, if I appli?d to him be of the same opinion as the noble lord the mensLer for Tiver• ten, and diplomatically assure me that we are not at war with China. I are not a diplomatist ; I have only the &large of the finances of the country ; but when I want to reduce the estimates and look to those of the navy, for instance, I cannot help feeling that a'though we are at peace with China that peace has a most war like iefluence upon our estimates. (" Hear," and cheers.) Therefor o, the ground upon which my hon. friend the member for Huntingdon shpportcd the establishment of that sinking fund—viz., that we were entirely at peace, or should be so when it came into operation, has not arisen ; aud knowing that en these subjects my hon. friend very touch arses with use, taking the plain view of these affairs in China, I am convinced that, oven with his view of the case, he never contemplated that the when , t ß n: t n , t s s an: d b h :a ; sinking fund should be brought into action at a -time whether i7ie peace :a gthr oea sinking c n ) rk navaliw a g r f , i ar w en we ad are fitting our arma in of thelB2Coh,ini thee.s e wate general rte sinking fund, an d est t e h r o eofp w :r a r_a r tsti refer—the t ow n n g eg f a u ha n ae d vm , e e w a,3l h ts i o c —t h o this s awy y h e ioc a ffh r c l: () s u t i s e e s l l i I'l afterwards e c r i i. } 7 a P r ' d 2,000,0001. of Exchequ.r bends. Nuw, I ask the com mittee calmly to consider in what position we are plac ing the finances of the country and its commerce, which is now at a moment of deptessiou, and not able or in clined to bear an increase of taxation, by the means of paying off the debt which we have sanctioned. Last year you had tie general sinking fund, you had the speciel sinking fund, you had engagements in the shape f Exchequer bonds, all acting upon your finances. There abso!utely was a sum of the national debt re deemed by the operation of the general sinking fund, which you will find in the account upon the table. It was not a very large amount, but positively there was a sum (,f the national elOt redeemed by the action of the general sinking fund. Then you bad the special sinking fond coming partially into operation to the ex ent of 250,0001. ; then you had 2,000,000/. of Exchequer bonds. New, let we shrew what is the practical result of these a: e tificial attempts to pay debt when you have not a revenue which affords you a natural surplus for the operation. (Hear, hear.) Here is the account of the public income and expenditure, from which I will read only one item. Our expenditure amounted to 70,000,0001., and our in come to nearly the same amount ; but although we are dealing with these immense amounts, you will find there is an excess of expenditure over income. Our income amounted last year to 68 millions, and yet our expendi ture exceeded that amount by, in round numbers, two millions and a half; but when I go to the other side of the balance-sheet and look at the expenditure, I find there a sum absorbed by the sinking fund, by the redemp tion of Exchequer-bonds, and by the liquidation of pub lic debt amounting to two millions and a quarter—only a quarter of a million leas than the excess of expendi ture. Well, what follows ? have It follows that you certainly have paid off debt, but pm not paid off debt out of your revenue. (Hear ; hear.) You must have paid it out cf the balances of the Exchequer, and the committee must feel that that is a system which, though upon one occasion it might answer, cannot long be continued. The committee, therefore, must now consider what is the consequence of brining past and present burdens to act simultaneously upon the revenue of the year. The only consequence can be war taxation in time of peace ; and can you have this war taxation in time of peaee consis tently with that commercial prosperity on which you de pend, and of which you are often talking I I must there fore, ask the committee to consider whether the time has not come at which, not merely with reference to this year, but with reference to future ones, and with regard to those results as to taxation which we wish and are al most pledged to accomplish, we must consider the policy of maintaining this system of artificial sinking funds- In princiaae I think it highly fallacious and erroneous, and in its opplication there has been a greater mistake, be ' cause, independently of the circumstance that you are maintaining two sinking funds at the present moment on contrary principles, independently of the consideration that the old sinking fund is in my mind built upon a sure foundation and upon sound principles, admitting for a moment that the war sinking fund is right in prin ciple, still I think it wrong in its application, because it never ought to have been brought into operation until yen had paid off your Exchequer bonds. (Hear.) This trip'e action upon your revenue to pay off debt can only end either in increased taxation or in loans, which for such an object would be absurd, or in financial embar rassment, wTich all of us would desire to avoid. (Hear.) Now, sir, I ask the committee calmly to consider this question. You have a deficit, of which 3,500,0001. are occasioned by engagements to pay off debt. You have no surplus ; you have no means of meeting these debts is the present year. How. then, will you meet them ? Will you raise a loan ? Will you raise a loan to fulfil engagements to pay debt—part of which consists of am artificial sinking fund I (Hear.) Could there be more blundering means of setting your house in order and squaring your accounts than negotiating a loan to meet engagements of this kind ! Is it not the last resource of an individual in distress to raise money in order to pay debts, and to get deeper in debt in consequence (Hear.) I cannot suppose that any one in this house would seri ouely sanction the idea that we ought to raise a loan to ful fil engagement. to pay off debts. (gear) Well then, is the committe prepared to meet these engagements by tax ation I It is very difficult to say how you could raise a sum of 3,500,000/. by taxes. It israther a perplexing ques tion. (A laugh) But suppose you were resolved to do it, that would not get you out of the difficulty. If you were to raise by taxes a sum of 3,500,00r1d. to pay these debts you would still have a deficit of 500,0001. You would have to make provision for that and also to provide some surplus. Therefore, if you come to Mica, it is a question of raising a sum exceeding 4,000,000/, Well, Sir, under these circumstances, and analysing these claims upon us, I think the time has arrived, not merely with reference to the convenience of the moment, but in order to put our finances for future years in a secure position, when we ought to come to some determination respecting this war sinking fund. I would humbly recommend the com• mittee to terminate that arrangement--(hear, hear) — either by repealiog the act, waich is, I think, Wks in principle and injurious in practice, or, at least, by sus pending its operation until the other engagements into which we have entered, viz., these Exchequer bonds, are provided for. (Hear, hear.) I feel certain that it will be utterly impossible, with public advantage to maintain the instrument which now exists by law, to which the wisest men of all times have expressed an adverse opinion ; which the labours of a learned and distinguished commit tee of this home, in devising a generalsinking fund, have really superseded ; and which is not needed to maintain the credit, while, if preserved, it will impair the finances of the country. Therefore, I shall recommend to the committee, so far as that 1,500,0001. a-year is concerned, a course which fir the present certainly shall prevent its embarrassing the finances of the country. (Hear, and a laugh.) We have now to deal wth 2,500,000/. of deficit if the committee sanction the course which I have just proposed, and I must say that I view the engagement which we have entered into by those Exchequer-bonds in a very diff-rent light and spirit from that in which I view the war sluicing fund. I have been teltoll that there is the easiest possible way of meeting that deficit, and that I might propose to fund it ; but if I were to take that course it would be one which, in my mind, would be quite urjustifiable, unless, indeed, the country were in an emergency in which all the principles of finance must give way to political consideratioes (flear, hear.) But in the • times in which we find ouvaves, I think that it would be highly un deasirable and improper to contemplate such a course, seeing that it would be totally contrary to the condi tions into which Parliament and the Government entered when they agreed to issue those terminable securities. (Hear, hear.) It would be to me, I confess, a source of the greatest satisfaction to meet, and to meet to the hour, those engagements ; but there is a great deal to be considered before we arrive at that conclusion. With regard to a loan, I inagine there is but one feeling on both sides of the house—namely, that whatever may be the deficit, that is the last expedient to which we must have receurse e (Hear, beer ) To Exchequer-bonds, however, applies the earns difficulty which applies to the war sinking fund. It they are to be met by a new tea, it mint be an excessive tax to produce upwards of 2,000,0001.; and when it lies produced than amount, where are you ? Still in debt. But if we cannot meet them immediately, I think, at all events, that the corn• ruittee. will acres that the sprit of the engagements should he fultilsd—that they should be engagements which we are resolved to meet out of the revenue of the country, and that we should guard as much an possible against their ever becornieg'a permanent addition to the public debt. (Hear, hear.) Still, seeing the deficiency that awaits mu even if those engagements are provided for, and anxious as I should be at once to provide for them, I kel it my duty, in order to plane the finances of the country, not merely for this p ar, but for future years, iu a position which I think will be advantageoue to the ceuntry, to recommend to the committee to post pane fur some period the payment of those Exchequer bonds—(" hear,'' and cries of "oh, oh !" from the Op position) ; but to consent to arrangements which , eo far as I can form an opinion, will secure their being pad out of the revenue of the country, and whA will place our general finances in such a position that they will torte no obstacles to those arrangements ehich I think it would he for the interest of the country to adopt. I will postpone describing, however, to a future portion of my remarks—when the time will natirally arrive that I should touch upon this port:on of the subject mere particularly—the mode in which I propose that the arrangements should be annomplished. Now, Sir, I have considered that part of the detioit which is occasioned by engagements to pay deb's, arid which is no doubt mdch the most cansideralee portion of it. There is next a part of the deficit to ba considered which, though-not so large in proportion, is cf a clew meter which moat be regarded in a severer light than the other, when the deficit is occasioned—no matter what may have been the original cause—by an absolute falling off in the revenue. An absolute felling off in the revenue must be rust by means which viii not only i supply the deficiency, but will also place the general iiidition of the revenue in a sound and•satisfactory ..tats. (Hear, bear.) Teat portion of the deficit has been occasioned by the cessation of a tax—ind that tax one of a very memorable character—one is which we cannot brine our minds free from considerations beyond those of a un rely fiscal and financial character ; and it certainly appears to me that upon the derision of the committee with respect to that source of deficit the fu ture satisfactory management of the fintlicea of the country.. will very much depend. (Roar, bear.) The property and income-tax has long and freqaeritly occu pied the consideration of this house. I thins I may say that it has never ceased to occupy the thoughts and to interest theteelinga of the country. It is atax the im portan e of which is no: to be measured ebeply by its financial results. Those who pay it do not comider merely the sums which they y ski to the Exchequsr, but the mode in , xhich it is assessed, and the manner in which it is levied ; so that from the earliest time that it has/ occupie 1 the coneidera ion of Parliament 'o the pre sent, social, and political principles have ben involved in its character and consideration. (Hear, hear.) It is not necessary for use to remind the ommit ee of the manner in which this tax has hahtually and traditionally been &sat ibed is Parliaesent. The epithets which were applied to it, and in which the greatest men have been used to cba,racterisi it, are in the memory, as they have often been upon the lips, of hon. geialeinan ou both sides of this house ; and that it is unjust, unequal, and inquisitorial all of ui have felt and most of us have acknowledged. (Heal.) There are, I think, two great classes of reasons shy the in• c one-tax should not form a permanent featare of our finance. (Cheers.) The first class I may ealldomentie; the second partake rather cf c onsiderations of an ctei nal character. The feeling of the community generally of the inequality, of the injustice, and of tae odious nature of this tax, has unfortunately been auctioned and concurred in by all those statesmen who have felt the necess ity of l ev yi n g it ; and it has been rep , ssale to maintain it f or any considerable time, or t. 4 adoet it :15 a p eenanent feature of our financial eystere without great acerbity of feeling and much violent controversy being excited as to its character and its incidence. If you wish to establish it you have an ericilesscrowd cf controversies of the mo+t angry character umn these ameegother points :—Whether there shall be ncognised a diflereece between property and income in t 3 assess ment ; whether, if that difference be not acknowledged, a difference shall be admitted between precaion3 and permanent inceinee ; whether there shall be s cifforence between incomes derived from trade and incomes derived from professions ; whether the poor man shill be ex empted, and what a poor man really is ; whit are in comes and what are wages ; who shall be demoted, where ought the line of exemption to be drawn, and the convenience of an exemption which shall i xclude all but these who are called rich. (Hear, hear.) %wee are some of the entjnete of controversy which were always raised in this country when an attempt was made to establish the incorne.t x for any lengthened period. They have not of late prevailed. But why, letnee ask, has that been the cane ? It is because in 1853 after a great agitation throughout the country upon this subject had taken place, after a committee had sat for two sears to investigate it, and after all sorts of plans and expedients devised by every manner of man had been considered in reference to it, an eminent member of this house brought forward a great financial scheme in which, acknow ledging the impossibility of reconstructing this tax upon principles of justice, upon principles which could satisfy the fair demands and expectations of society, he submitted to the notice of the House a proposition the effect of which would be to senate its diminution and final extinction at the end of a certain term of years. (Hear, hear.) That scheme was brought forward with consummate ability, and, having been supported in the House cf Commons by an overwhelming majority, created the conviction in the public mind that in its spirit the arrangement would be carried into effect, and that the financial policy which was in 1853 propounded with one which both Parliament and the country had cordially embraced and sanctioned. (Cheers.) I do not wish to overstate the case. To do so would not be my interest, as it certainly is not my inclination. I shall not say that a solemn compact was entered into at the time to which I allude between Parliament and the country upon this subject, which would be regarded as independent of all circumstances and events. That is a proposition which it would be wild and idle to assume and absurd to attempt to uphold. There were, however, arrangements cordially entered into, and in the same spirit understood, and Which the country ex pected would be religiously fulfilled if the interposition of extraordinary circumstances did not render their fulfilment impossible. (Hear, hear.) Well, circum stances of that character did take place. A great national emergency occurred. And what, let me ask, in that hour did that people do who bad previously murmured at the injustice of the principle upon which the income-tax was established I When the safety of the country was endangered, when her honour and her best interests were at stake, what did they do who before the arrangement of the right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford was brought forward—an arrangement which they had cordially accepted—ha'i complained of the unequal mode in which this tax was levied upon the various classes of the community,—what. I repeat, did they do when the scheme which that right hon. gentleman devised was not only arrested in its progress, but made the source .from which the power of England flowed forth to support the honour and interests of the country ? Did they murmur ? (Cheers.) Not for an in s'ant. (Heart) On the contrary, everybody did hie utmost to prove to England and to the world that there was no burden to which our people would hesitate to c.stribute at a moment of national emergency ; the income tax was raised to a very large amount, and during , the period to which I refer, when the country clearly un derstood that it was absolutely necessary the income tax should continue to be levied, not a voice was raised against its imposition. (Cheers.) It was not until pease had been secured that the nation ealled for a remission of the war taxation in this particular. When that great object was happily attained we heard again the expres sion of its expectation that the arrangement of 1853 would be carried into effect. (Hear.) There can be no doubt that the breaking out of the war caused a consider able difference in our position as compared with that in which we stood at the period at which the arrangement was originally introduced. (Hear.) The temperate charge on our debt becaeie liable to encumbrances, such for instance, as those Exchequer bonds, which must be m.t, and. which constitute impedimeats in the way of adhering to the arrangement of 1853, which could not well be foreseen. Th se, however, are circumstances which a sensible people will not fail to accept as furnish ing good grounds for delay in the diminution of extinc tion of the income-tax. (Hear.) They do not, how ever, constitute sufficiently strong reasons why the coun try should be prepared to regard the arrangement of 1653 as one which may now be looked upon as a scheme at once visionary and fantastic. (Cheers.) I cannot help feeling, then, that, looking to those domestic con siderations which undoubtedly prevail—namely, that the very principle of the tax is one which creates pub lic disaffection, and is calculated to irritate the public mind—it is highly inexpedient that it should form a permanent feature of our financial system. (Cheers.) I may now be permitted to advert to other grounds which, although they may netlso generally influ ence public opinion as those which I have just men tioned, yet are, I think, well deserving of our considera tion in dealing with this important question. Tney embrace considerations arising out of the occurrence of some extraordinary emergency, and are of a political nature. Is it not of the highest importance, I would ask, that the S overeign of this country should, notwith standing the immense revenue which is annually raised to support the vast establishments of the country, be enabled, with the concurrence of her Parliament, to touch at any moment, as it were by a spring, a source of revenue which in an hour of great emergency would yield 20,000,0001. or 25,00'),0001. sterling—a sum equal to those' large loans which foreign potentates raise at a ruin ous rate of interest, and one of which almost exhausts the resources of their subjects—without causing a mur mur to rise to the lips of a single person in her dominions (Cheers.) That, I maintain, is a reason drawn from politi cal sources why we should concur with the right hon. gen'leuian the member for the University of Oxford in the proposition he has advocated in the language more unequivocal than any other statesman in this house-- that the income-tax should not be allowed to constitute a permanent feature of our financial system. (Hear, hear.) But, although that may be my opinion, and although I cannot but think it is the opinion of the great majority of the House of Commove, —although there are grounds of the highest political expediency which seem to me to render it desirable that the arrange ment of 1853 should be carried out in spirit, if not in the letter, in is still undoubtedly possible that the country, anxious as it may be to witness the realisation of its expectations in that respect, and having the utmost cm fidence that Parliament is really and in all sincerity dis posed to meet its wishes upon the point, still may not be unprepared, knowing that a deficiency in the revenue exists, to sabmit to the burden in connexion with the income-tax which it bore last year. ("Hear, hear," and laughter.) The people of England may say--" A very great deficit lies before us. It is not, after all, half so great as we thought it would be some time ago. If we submit to an income-tax at the same rate as that of last year we shall get rid of this deficit, and we must trust to the future." (Laughter.) Now, that is a view of the case which it le my duty to place before the house. We have a deficit in our revenue not occasioned by our engagements to pay a debt, but by a cessation of taxes, which deficit must be made goo 1 by taxation, and which would be converted into a surplus if the committee should think proper to continue the income-tax for ano ther Tear at the sa-ne rate as e,t yesr. (Hear.) The committee may take that ceurs l e, and take it, tem with the sincere intention of carrying the scheme of the right hon. nentletnaii the member for the University of Oxford itno effect. But there are other considerations which ought to influence our decisions with respect to this question. The country has behaved extremely well dur ing the last five y ears in ma tees of tex ttien. (Cheers.) At no period of English history has so much public spirit been exhibited upon the part of the community in that particular, and I think that is as much as one ought to expect. There is no doubt that this country general ly has this question of the income-tax greatly at heart. It has for a long time clung to the belief that, notwith standing the adverse circumstances which have taken place, there has existed upon the part of Parliament a sincere intention to ditniuidi and eventually to extin gulch this tax, and I cannot bht fed that if I were to ask you to take a course which would look like break ing your promise with the nation in that rsspeca and to Reek to get out of our difficulty by again passing a law which would do away with that remission which took place last year, 1 should be calling upon you to adopt a po l i cy which would be but too well calculated to sour the public mind. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) The re sult of such a p :liey would be that when a great ein r aeney again arose, you would not be then in a position to appeal to the country with the same success, or to expect to have your appeal met with the same cordial response which upon a recent occasion awaited the :Minister who had feel d of the national finances. (Hear.) I feel therefore bound to announce it as the deliberate opinion of her Majesty's Government that the deficit in the revenue which I have t rought , under your notice ought not to be supplied by proposing an iecrease its the income-tax. (Cheers.) But if the income-tax is not to lee disturbed—if the income-tax for this year is only to give u 3 the reduced rate of sJ.—and we propose that course—the house miait feel that it is absolutely necessary to support the revenue of the coun try by toe imposition of new texas. (Sensation, and some cries of Hew.) I know that I may be told by some gentlemen that you can obtain the relief you want by a reduction of expenditure. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Williams and several other hon. inemb..re.) Allow me to say that reduction of expenditure is not a task that can be undertaken in haste and heat. It requires time — deep, protracted, and minute investigation—and though it might be very easy t o effect certain reductions, which night be very popular in the house f e- the moment, yet urilsss they are well considered and founded on :nature investigation and apple knowledge, they woul f only lead to a swift and fatal reaction to expenditure. (Hear-) Now, we 'nave made some reductions in expenditure. We have made red ucions which could be made with safety, and in amount not contemptible. Allow me to say that in meeting the difficult financial position we have had to encounter a reduction in expenditure of 800,0001., which we have made this year,is an item not to be despised. (Hear, hear.) But let me impress on the committee that which I have presumed to say on previous occasions—reduction depends on polny. It is quite a sill idea to suppose that a body of men, though the may be Ministers can meet in a room and suddenl y alter the establishments of the country. The establish• monis of the country are adapted to the policy which the country pursues, and if you pursue a policy, and Fano lion a policy, which 'made to invasion, to costly arma rminte, and consequently to expenditure, you cannot ex pect, because there is a change of Ministers, that you can deal with that expenditure, unless you deal with that policy. (Hear, hear.) Rainy sound reduction is the effect of fine and thoughtful management, and is not in a few hasty weeks to be concocted in order to obtain popular applause. (if ear, bear.) I say, there fore, that it was utterly impossible fen us to deal wish the expenditure of the country during the period in which we have had the responeiole position of Ministers. We have succeeded to arrangements, which w e must manage an best we cm ; and, therefore, now that there i-is deficit in the revenue, you must not, unmindful of the not inconsiderable reduction safely and honourably effected by us, say that we ought to have made le hoc tions. (Hear, hear.) When we have opportunity and time we can submit the establishments of this couutty to such severe revision as they may require, and with fa vourable: circumstances, effect considerable retrauch inents in these establishments. (Hear, hear.) But it ;weld be worse than mockery to pretend that In are able to do so all of a moment. ( Hear, hear.) the ungracious office of selecting a new tax, I am at least somewhat upheld by the consolatory conviction that every person who may be called on to pay it will either directly or indirectly feel the benefit of the considerable remission of taxation which occurs this year by the fall in the rate of the income-tax. (A slight laugh.) When we remember what the country expected, I hope the committee will not forget, in the consideration which they may give to my proposition, that we start with the with the fact that by the operation of the law the com munity are already entitled to, and soon will - enjoy, a considerable diminution of that tax so peculiarly odious to the people, and that benefit the country will not measure simply by the amount of the remission, but will also accept it as an earnest that the policy of 1853 will be culled out. (Hear, hear.) The mode in which I would attempt to supply the deficiency is by asking the house to agree to a proposition which appears to me as reasonable and wise. I would aekthem to agree to equalise the duty on spirits. (Hear, and laughter.) The committee will recollect that we have been legislating on this sub ject now for several years. We have, consequently, great experience to guide us as to the course we should adopt I and the results we may obtain. I think it was in 1853 that the duties on English, Scotch, and Irish spirits I were raised. They were raised considerably, with great benefit to the Exchequer, with increased consumption, and without the slightest appearance of illicit distillation. They were, I believe, in the following years increased with the same result. In 1855 the right hon. gentleman the member for Radnor equalised the duties on English and Scotch spirits. Well, that was a step taken with some apprehension, but what was the consequence I Great advantage to the revenue, increased consumption, no appearance of illicit distillation ; and, stranger than all, the greatest benefit was experienced by the scotch, whose duties were raised. (Laughter.) That may appear a paradox • but it is a dry fact, and is accounted for in a moment, because, by tie raising of the duty, they were freed from a most embarrassing and ruinous restriction, and teed the full enjoyment of the markets of England. (He; r We have much experience, I say again, to guide tie Since 1855 the duties on spirits have been raised, having been equalised between England and Scotland, while a differential duty still remains in favour of Ire land. The duties have again been raised, and the results have been equally satisfactory. I have taken some pains to obtain the beat information on the subject, and from what I hear there is not the slightest appearance of illicit distillation. Look at the position of Ireland. At this moment the only differential duty that remains be tween Ireland and Great Britain is the differential duty on spirits. lam sure that my Irish friends, who are always demanding justice for Ireland—(laughter)—and who define that justice to consist in an identity of insti tutions, of rights, and of duties—(renewed laughter)— cannot on reflection consider the position in which they are placed by this differential duty on spirits with any other but feelings of indignant humiliation. (Great laughter.) I remember once, who" I was at Bristol, a ship came in from Ireland, and, to my great surprise, I saw it boarded instantly by Custom-house offieere, and the crew treated just the same as a parcel of foreigners. ;The vessel was searched to see if there were any Irish spirits in the hold, which, if it had come in undetected, would have paid a duty of 6e. 2d. instead of Bs. Was that a position for " high-spit ited" Irishmen to be placed in t (Laughter.) How much better will it be for the Irish to have the command cf the English market —lhear)--and not only of the English but of the British market. How much better for them to enter into active competition with English and with Scotch spirits, and, instead of confining themselves to the supply of a mere provincial demand, to make the most of those admirable inventions which I am told the French now prefer even to their own brandy. (Hear, and a laugh.) How much better for them to pour their spirits into this country, and through this country into the continent, and thus give a great stimulus to the trade. (Hear.) Sir, I cannot help feeling that this is a tax of which the committee ge nerally will approve ; and I trust that I shall experience no opposition on the part of my Irish friends, and tbat not a single murmur will be called forth by my proposal. (A laugh.) If, however, there is a murmur ainung any of them I would ask them in the most cordial spirit — (laughter)—to consider, first, the position of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer—(hear, and a laugh)—and, next, to bear in mind with what pride and satisfaction they will return to their native country when they are able to tell their constituents that that income tax with which they were visited—not by me I may observe (they will remember that) but which somehow or other, by means I never could penetrate, was unexpectedly fastened upon their necks—has been shaken to. its °ennui ; that that real badge of their yoke has been nearly got rid of ; that they have given a fatal blow to it. (Laughter.) In the recollection of these cheerful circumstances they wi.l, I hope, find ample compensation for any atnoyance which they might otherwhe experience. (Hera.) The commit tee will therefore, I trust, sanction my proposition to equalise the spirit duties ; and that will 'give to the Ex chequer the sum of at least 500,000/ , which is the amount of he deficit. (Hear.) I am much obliged to the committee for bearing with me while I have submitted to them this somewhat lengthened statement—(cheers) —but I am sure they will remember that my position is not one of ordinary difficulty, because I have been obliged by process of analysis to operate upon a large deficit, .and, of course, to touch upon many circum stances. The committee will now consider that if the course which I humbly recommend be adopted the de ficit has disappeared. We have put an end to the war sinking fund, or postponed its operation to the happy day when the Exchequer-bonds shall be paid out of our revenue ; we have agreed to an arrangement with re ference to our Exchequer-binde, and prevented them from forming any obstacle in the way of placing our financial system in order ; and, lastly, by the proposal to equalise the duties on serifs we have entirely got rid of the deact. But I deem it advisable, besides, that we should add something to the revenue in the shape of surplus. (Hear.) I shall not press much upon upou the resources of the country or the patience of the house in this respect, because the state of our balance is very satisfactory, and because a very large and un usual amount will be ad.led to them in the course of this year. Nay, if I had chosen to avail myself of it, a sum of 400,0001. might fairly be brought into the re venue of the year. I have thought it best, however, not to bolster up the finances, and I have felt that on the whole the house would rather see the case under than over•stated. But the East India Company, who owed to the State 1,500,0001., have already paid 1,100,0001. of that sum towards the reduction of the war expenditure of this year. This amount was lent out e f revenue, and it was agreed that it should be paid in revenue. There is yet 400,0001., therefore, which, strictly speaking, might fairly be taken credit for in the Budget ; but I thought it best on the whole to make an unvarnished statement to the house. Nevertheless, that 400.0001. will at all events be paid into the Exchequer Lien there is a balance upon repayments over advances this year rf probably not less than 600,090/. There are moneys to be paid both on account cf the interest and the sinking fund cf ,the Sardinian loan. There are, too, other items, so that a very large sum will be paid into our balancer, which, as the committee will have observed from the balance-sheet, were themselves at the end of the year iu a satisfactory position. This, therefore, being the state of the balances of the Ex chequer ; remembering (which is really the fact) that in the estimate of revenue which I have placed before the committee I have most scrupulously refrained from in dulging in any but the most moderate expectat one ; feeling, indeed, that if I had adopted the sanguine views which many persons in autla‘rity would have satictionedf I might have ventured on a more cheerful statement ; looking, moreover, at the great efforts which the coun try has wade; I should not have thought it necessary under all these circumstances to trouble the committee much on this suSj •ct of a surplus. But such a surplus I believe ought to be provided, even though it be a small ono ; and, confident in the resources of the revenue, I think a small one should under the circumstances suffice. Now, so far as I can form an opinion on the subject from conversation with men of business, there is no mode of t ixetion more popular than the application of stamps to various articles of commerce. (Hear, hear.) No oce feels the burden ; it is a mode of taxation which on the whole occasions less annoy ance than any other, and I think in fact it is rather popular. (Laughter.) The penny p istage system fret brought taxation by means of stamps into fashi n. People like to tea vast results acc implished by slight means. I therefore propose that whenever we draw a check we should place a penny stamp upon it. (Cheers.) I am assured by one who, upon such a subject, mu t be considered the highest authority, and who has very c anp!etely mastered this question, that I may count on a stun of not less than 3Q0,0001. front this source. (Hear ) Of course, there tnay be objsetions to the tax, but every man who draws a s check must remember that he has now to pay an income-tax of only P. instead of 7d., and obtaining as he does a remission of the income-tax, and seeing the foundation of its future extinction laid, he must feel that under the circumstances some sacrifice must be made. (Cheers.) I hope, therefore, the committee will agree with me that this is a mode of taxation, if it can be called such, which they 'will not refuse to sanction. (Hear, hear.) Considering the p aition of the Exchequer at this moment, I am not prepared to ask the committee to impose any other taxes. I wcul'l ask them, however, to permit me fur a moment to remind them of what may be the position of this country in the year following the present, for, al though we hear many taunts about " prospective finatice," I think that any person in the office which I now have the honour to occupy would be greatly wanting in duty if he brought for ward any proposition without having x-rcised some foresight in regard to it, and weighed in some manner its influence upon our future prospects. Now let us see, if the arrangements which I have pro p ered are agreed to by the committee, what will be our prospect.; in the year following this. You will have again a loss on the incoree-tax, as compared with your present revenue, of 1,000,0001. ; and assuming that all things remain the same, and that your revenue and ex• peediture ate exactly what they are now, you will have a less in 1859-60 of 1,000,0001. in your income-tax whole 2.000,000/. of Excheriner bonds will become due , You will have this 3,000,0001. reducadliT bat saytulie a that moutit of surplus which I . may obtain tid e y, ar you have to meet 3,000,000/. of dt Lit. Now, I put it to the committes-13 that a prospect which ought to alarm us ? Can we entertain a doubt but that with fair commercial prosperity, with a fair revival of trade in this country, - the resources of our revenue, aided by well considered and wise retrenchments, will be sufficient under these circumstances to inset our engagements, to pay these bonds, and to encounter that diminution of income-tax. (Rear, hear.) Weil, if you do that,—and feel confident that you will be able should no dis aster against which human provision is unavailing overtake the country,—in what position shall we stand in that famous 1800 which has been the pivot of modern finance ? There are certainly 2,000,0001. of bonds due in that year ; but you will have annuities to the amount of something like 2,150,0001. per annum ex piring at a time when I hope and believe you will pos sess a large, a bounding surplus of revenue ; and you will be able, if not to thu letter, at least in spirit, to ac- complish the plan of the right hon. gentleman. It is for that reason—in order that we may act fairly, candidly, and sincerely towards the country on this question, in order that the wise arrangements of the right hon. gen tleman may be assented to, and that that great policy— fo: a great policy with regard to the income-tax I be lieve it to be—should be accomplished, that I shall pro pose not to encumber 1860 or 1861 with the bonds which at present we cannot meet, but I shall propose that in 1862 and 1863 1,000,00.0/. should be apportioned to each year. (Hear, hear.) When that is done I have no doubt the policy of 1853 will be carried into effect. e (Hear, hear.) I now submit these propositions to the candid consideration of the committee. When they re collect the expectations of the country as to the revenue, and the fact that at the end of last year, and indeed so late as the period at which I assumed office, the esti mated deficiency was not less than 6,500,000/., I hope they will not be dissatisfied with the information that by the rallying of the revenue during the last quarter, and by judicious retrenchment, the immense deficit that so long brooded over the spirit and depressed the energy of the country has been dissipated, notwithstanding the reduction of an impost most odious to the people, in a manner which guarantees an entire accomplishment of the right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford. This result will, I think, be satisfactory to the country as well as to the committee ; and I trust that these propositions will not only receive the candid consideration of the committee, but obtain, after due thought and discussion, the cordial acceptance of the country. (Loud cheers, in the midst of which the right hon. gentleman resumed his seat.) The MIA IRMAN having put the first resolution, the effect of which was that the duty on Irish spirits should be assimilated to that on English and Scotch spirits, Mr. GROGAN said he thought the committee could not but admire the ability and clearness of the Chancel for of the Exchequer's statement. (Cheer?) His state= meat as to the deficit no doubt seemed to alarm them, but they must feel he had conferred a substantial benefit on the country by adhering to the arrangement of 1353, . and thus insuring the extinction of the income tax in 1860. (Hear.) The committee would not feel surprised at an Irish member's objection to one of the right hone gentleman's propositions, viz., that as to Irish spirits. (Laughter.) He had that presented a petition signed by upwards of 4,000 of the inhabitants of Dublin, com plaining of the ruinous effects of the present war impost on Irish whisky, one of the chief articles of Irish. mann f !eture, and praying for its reduction. What must be the feeling of the petitioners when they learnt that not only was that impost not to be reduced to its amount before the late war, but further increased ? The statement of the right hon. gentleman showed there was no neces sity for that increase of taxation. He had congratulated the committee on the fact that an increase of the impost had not been followed by an increase of illicit distillation; but the peculiar circumstances of Ireland daring the last two or three years prevented such a result. The right hon. gentleman might rest assured that illicit distillation would revive in full force as soon as the Irish crop be came favourable to it ; and that the gain to the revenue from the proposed increase of duty would be more than counterbalanced by the expense which endeavours to re press it would entail. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY observed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had omitted the estimated expenses of the Chinese war. He apprehended that as the expendi ture last year was estimated by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer at 65,474,0001., but proved to be 70,000,0001., so the expenditure this year would be considerably more than the estimate of the present Chancellor of the Ex chequer. He therefore wished to know whether it - was not probable that the expenditure on account of the army and navy this year would, as was the case last year, exceed the estimates by some millions I It was, of course, impossible for any Chancellorof the Ex chequer to estimate accurately in respect of contingen cies ; but on that very account the committee ought not to rely on the right hon. gentleman's estimate of the ex penditure of this year. Ho most cordially approved his proposition as to the income-tax, but begged to remind him of the great injustice to which the holders of the annuities that would expire in 1860 were subjected. That class of public creditors paid 17 times more tax than the holders of perpetual salinities. He wished to know wheeler there were no outstanding debts which would be included in the expenditure of the present year. Mr. DEASY said that as the propositi n of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would affect a most im port ant branch of Irish trade, and involve consequences of groat importance in a social point of view, he hoped the right hon. gentleman would not call for a decision on the question at once. He (Mr. Deasy) feared the measure proposed by the right hon. gentleman would lead to the increase of illicit distillation in Ireland, and he hoped the resolution would be postponed, at all events until Friday. Sir C. LEWIS—In the very lucid statement which the right hon. gentleman has made to the committee he has adverted principally to the finances of the current year, commencing in April last, but he also made some partial allusion to the finance of the preceding year. His statements, so far as they related to numerical facts, ap peared to me to be strictly correct, but some observa tions which he made in the nature of comment upon the character of last year's expenditure I cannot allow to pass without explanation. In arguing upon the question of a war sinking fund the right hon. gentleman adverted to the expenditure of last year, as proving that the epee raticn of such a sinking fund was fallacious,—that there was a deficit of 2,000,0001. upon the expenditure of last year, anti the payments for the liquidation of Exchequer bonds to the extent of 2,000,0001. having been taken out of the balances of the preceding year could not be consi dered as a redemption of debt out of the revenues of last year. Now, I wish to call the attention of the committee to the payments whistle were made out of the revenue of last year in the nature of the redemption of debt, beyond the 2,000,000/. of Exchequer Bonds. Out of the re venue of last eearthere were redeemed in the nature of debt 2,000,000/. of Exchequer Bonds, and there were also Exchequer Bills paid off in money to the amount of 288,6001. I. am not able to state wire• her these bills have been reissued, but, so far as my knowledge extends., they have not, and therefore their payment would be a re demption of debt. There was also the war sinking fund of last year to the amount of 250,0001. ; there was a sinking fund under the operation of the Act of Parfia ment, r.f 77,8621. ; and there was a payment of 1,1252061. for the redemption of Sound Duea, which was in the nature of the payment of debt, inasmuch , as if it had net been defrayed from the revenues of the year the amount must have been borrowed. That amount was not included in the estimates laid before the house at an early period of the session. The total of theme sums it. 3,741,6681., which was paid last year in the na ture of the redemption of debt. The committee will bear these facts in mind before they come to the conclu sion that there was anything fallacious or deceptive in the redemption of debt last year. The amounts I have mentioned were not the only sums paid last year out of tee revenue, in additionto the estimate which I submitted to the house at the beginning of the session. We paid, sides', 635,0001. for the Persian expedition, 40,000/. for the dowry of the Princess Royal, and a supplemen tary vote of 500,040/. for the militia. Now, all these charges, in addition to the estimates I laid upon the taale at the commencement of the session, were dis charged from the revenue of the year, with the excep tion of 2,000,0001. taken out of the balance of the pre ceding year, and I will state why I thought it a per fectly legitimate operation to diminish the balances to that extent. On the 31st cf March:lBs7, the balances in the Exchequer amounted to 8,668,0001., a HUM which was unnecessarily large. On the 31st of March this year the balances in the Exchequer amounted to 6,657,0001-, which, as the right hon. gentleman has said with great truth and candour must be considered a large sum to be retained in the Exchequer. But out of the revenue of last year many payments were made which were unex pected when the estimate of expenditure was submitted by me to the house, and which were rendered necessary by the Indian mutiny, and by the consequent increase of expenditure for the army and navy. When these facts are taken into consideration the committee will, I think, come to the conclusion that there was nothing fallacious or deceptive in the operations for the redemption of debt . , last year. I shall not trouble the committee at any length with regard to the plan of financial arrangements for the curt eut year which has been submitted to them by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I will merely state that I certainly concur with the right hon. gentleman in think• ing that there is a fundamental distinction between a de' ficnency of revenue caused by current expenditure, and such a deficiency caused by operations in former ywl" fur the redemption of debt. I reserve any observations with regard to the war sinking fund of 1,500,0001 tent; the right bon, gentleman brings is his measure. I m the opinion I formerly expressed that some arrangement of this nature ie expe tient to provide for the regular re demption of debt, f r if we trust merely to the operations of the a x.sting Sinking Fund Act there is no security for the regular reduction of debt, and if we are to redeeoz any considerable amount it is necessary to impose a dis tinct obligation for the redemption of a certain sum- When the Loan Act was passed it was impossible to fore see how long the war would continue, and I fully admit that when we are called upon bylaw t tredeem 2,000,000/. Exchequer.bonds, and there is a heavy expenditure for military and naval purposes, it can scarcely be expected t hat we should impose fresh taxes to meet the war sinking' fund of 1,500,000/. The right hon. gentleman has said with regard to the Exchequer-bonds, that be propose/ simply to postpone them, but he must be aware that they do not admit cf postponement. They fall due on a certain day, and there is no provision for the payment of these bonds unless the right hon. gentleman takes a vote ill Committee of Supply. What the right hon..gentlennso, calls postponem en t i s , th ere f o re, in fact, the creation 01 another lean. (Hear, hear.) He can only pay off thew; Exchquer bonds by borrowing, and therefore, inet ead of postponement, the proposal of the right hon. gentle' man will lead to the incurring of another unfunded debt, to the extent <f 2,000,00 01 . for a certain number 0! yearn With respect to the equalisation of the spirit duties in Iceland and Great Britain, I can quite confirm the accuracy of what the house seemed to regard as paradoxical statement on the part of the Chancellor p,! the Exchequer —that great incidental advantages vino restric a ccrue to the Irish sp irit manu facturers fro m the freedom of interc terse an d the abolit ion of rill fi,cal r b e: e land e inconvenient n G i : n ea t t t o ßritain. sh A co l n th s o u u m g e h rs it to rng; d:i a t y a will derive great incidental benefit from the equalisatie f : upon spirits, the Irish spirit trade r ght hon. gentleman has laid before the committees; n a o b ftootddwuoetuei duties. additional perfectly fair proposition which tb and I trust that be will not consent to any fer a postponement of the resolution—(near, hear) inasmuch inasmuch as any delay in a matt e r' of teis sort v/0 01 1 afford an opportun'ty for taking spirits out of bond, T. thereby snake a, considerable ditaintnion in the reven u e applicatia weich the Exchequer would receive during the press t year. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, if the committee are lua come to a cerdueion upon the subject, I would etroetq . advise them to com e to that conclusion to-night, eattua out agreeing to defer the question till some future day Wear, bear.) I would also take the present opp ortu . of impressing upon the right hon. gentleman and th e IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS. —OCESTERDAY.) The LORD CHANCILLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clock. The Earl of WICKLOW gave notice that in the event of the Oaths Bill being read a second time, he should native the omission of the clause which denies that any foreign potentate hatb, or ought to have, temporal' or spiritual jurisdiction in this realm. THE SEIZURE OF THE CA.GLIARI. Lord WENSLEYDALE inquired whether, in the pre seerstate of the question arising out of the capture of the Cagliari, the Government would have any objection to adopt the course he had recommended before the re cess, namely, to take the opinion of the Privy Council on the subject / The Earl of MALMESBURY said he was obliged to the noble and learned lord for asking the question, as it gave him an opportunity of stating how the case at present stands. ,The case divides itself into two parts — the first part, with respect to the detention of the two engineers who happened to be on board at the time the ship was captured. The law officers of the Crown who were consulted by the present Government on wo tthe legality or illegality of the detenti on of the men were unanimously of opinionthat michdetention was illegal; and on account of the hardships enduied by the men her Majesty's Government might demand add by cation .from the Government of Naples, and acting on that suggestion he had addressed a communica.tion to M. Carafe, making that demand for the suff er i ng en dured by the men during their captivity. With respect to the 'second part of the question, viz . .,.the legality or illegality of the capture of the Cagliari, he had only within the last few hours received the report of the gen tlemen to whom the question had been referred. Two were of opinion that the capture was Un ill deregal, these and the third though t the capture legal. cir cnmstanoestheGovernmentfelt it impossible to take those strong measures desirable on that part of the question. Without pledging himself to anything, he considered the suggestion of the noble and learned lord worthy of the most attentive consideration ; and, under all the circum stances, he was precluded from giving a decided answer. The law officers consulted by the present Government with respect to the legality of the confiscation of the steamer, had declared that such a step would be illegal. He was not then in a position to say whether any Official notice of the condemnation had been sent to the Government of Sardinia. Earl GRANVILLE asked whether there would be any objection to lay on the table a copy of the com munication sent to M. Carafe? The Earl of MALMESBURY said the subject was at present under consideration, and the production of the documents would be unusual, SALE OF POISONS. Lord CAMPBELL asked the intention of the Go vernment with respect to the introduction of a bill for regulating the sale of poison ! The Earl of DERBY said if the Government saw the slightest chance of passing such a measure they would introduce a bill. THE PATRIOTIC FUND. The Duke of NORFOLK then rose to meve for a number of returns connected with the administration of the Patriotic Fund. These returns, which were very voluminous embraced the correspondence of the council the names of persons who had been relieved, and the whole proceedings connected with the administration of the fund. The noble duke made a short statement in moving for these returns, and said that his object was to tiring the question before the house on a future occa sion. Lord COLCHESTER explained that the origin of the motion was a belief or suspicion that an attempt at pro selytism had been made in connection with the tration of thefund. He repudiated, on the part of the csammissioner., all:such suspicion. The Earl of DERBY said there was no objection to give the noble duke all the information he required. Ho would, however, suggest to the noble duke to go person ally to the office and inspect for himself. The return. whioh the noble duke had moved for would make five or six volumes. Eerl GRANVILLE advised the noble duke to yield to this appeal. The Duke of NEWCASTLE ale) recommended the noble dare to go to the office and inspect the books and proceedings himself. He defended the administration of the commissioners. Lord ST. LEONARDS also defended the commis. sinners. He said there was not a single Roman Catholic child in a school that it ought not to be in. He knew that Protestant children had been sent to Roman Catho lic schoole. The attack on the commissioners by Arch bi-hep Cullen had been amply answered and refuted. Even Mr. Bell, one o' the commissioners, who was a Roman Catholic said there was no foundation for them. The Duke of NORFOLK said he would go personally to the offices, and it he convinced hinisel fleet eveiy thing was right, he would be the first to apologise. A portion of the returns was then ordered. CUSTOMS BILL. This bill.passed through committee. The house adjourned at 25 minutes past six. Article tion. impo st pORBOB itICOIII, the i m the di, that achtni aad h. that i 1 O. 2d 6204 that t the CI tea; Propo be ob.