The Sun. — London, England, 1829-04-03 00:00:00

en t. ardenP mrpanere of this measure were now its most etincere supptiaine He hoped he might he permitted to express the concern whit.% he felt that his 3lajesty's Ministers should *ant committed themselves to this DM without haring imparted their determination until it Wee , 00 late . ee recede. In the first place he nnould ask, would t4e present measure tranquillize trelend ?e—(Hear, yea hear.).. The greet agitator of Ireland tad told them explicitly that it would not. In the very peeMr which annoutteed the recommendetion of hie Mr...jinny in his speech from the Throne, was contained a *et of the grievances hereafter to be used for the premise of creating disturbances in Irelando—(oeiee ter " Hear, he tr.")--- The great mover of agitation had said he was w'iling to Accept 7s. rid. in the pound this Session, nmenving to him self the right And the determination tee demand tie remain ing 12e. nef. at the next Session.—(Hear, heir, hear.) — He had said that the regeneration of Ireland would not be complete until the repeal of the Union had - restored Ireland from the character of a province to that of a nation. Another object was that tithes should he einelished, and that the Clergy should he left to rely upon the contributions of those who should choose to remit:stain them. Those were the objects of the great agitator, and they would be so far facilitated by this Bill that all the bulwarks of the Protestant Church 'would he removed, without conciliating- those who were opposed to it—their power was in fact increased, without lessening their inclination to do it snischief. Would any Noble Lord think that the Roman Catholic Church troald consent to be held as an inferior Church, or that they would !care a church which they believed to be heretical in possession of privileges to which they thought they were entitled. He did not wish to apecei to the passions or the prejudices of the pimple, but he fnti that this Bill would not he the means if giving t: eoptillity to Ireland. It was because he believed this measure wan not desired from its own value, 13 , ;: t t o objects, that he gave it his dec'eLeil oppoeitinn. It was because he believed that inlet Dili would increase the power of the Cathokea, and at the same time exaeperate them to attain ' L oose ulterior objects, that h e op p o s e d it.— Hear, hen:. )—lt was from these convictions, :tithe ant see s engird to the obloquy that might Ito theeienn open him, that he should take him stand open that ground which alone appeared to ageret a good secu elty2t firm footing for deence.---<Hear, hear, hear.)— He treestri Protestants would be united in fair resistance to *tie present measure, It had been said the et:lilt:nee oildeced in both Timms of Parliament showed sacs a state of things that no administration could ineist the present measure. This he mutt deny, and if the Catholics succeeded they would raise themeelves to such eheight of power, that he trembled for the consequat tees. He woet e l ea!? upon Ministers to redeem their pledgee nf !se curities. They hail promised them, and the pro mise Rounded well, hut where was the fulfilment of the prnmise. There was no security at all proposed. If there erns a difference of opinion on the subject now, would there not he after this Bill was carried. Would tent ether divisions he again brought forward, and other sand fteee detnandrel. The advocates of the measure denied that they wished to exercise their political power. Upon this point tie would rest.—(Hear.)—Coted, he would ask, Catholics be admitted into power with eafety to the Irish Protestant Church He thought not. The present state r,f the laws was its great buln - aeke--(flear. ) end it ought to he considered how great Mas the influence of she Catholic Priests over the nnblic mind : they would ohtain the return of rtelnue Catholics into the Legis nnare, men who they know would join any patty :in the destruction o f th e Protestant Church.— Such Members would enter the House zee!ous for their religion, backed with all the power of superstition ; with minds eo incited, with minds so acted on, would it not subject the Protestant Church to denser, and accomplieh its dcrantfall ? Noble Lords ought to be careful how they sanctioned a measure which would raise such a force against the Church. It must, at all events, alarm its friemde, and therefore was bail policy. The Catholics deny that they are more at variance with the Protestant Church than other Dissenters. This he must deny, fur from their unconstitutional connection with a foreign state, their oppo tsition must be greater. Other sects only differed on subjects of minor importance. The promotion of their Church was their first object. It wait nearer to them than kin dred or Mende, and their general hostility to Pro testants was much to be dreaded. He did not mean to say, after the passing of this Bill, that the subver !don of the Protestant Church would immediately follow, bat he was not prepared to support any measure that suet altienat,ny cause its downfall. He would ask Nettle Lords whether they were prepared to support the Protestant religion. One of the two religions must have the ascendancy, which should it be ? And there wos plenty of proof that the Catholic religion was not meet favourable to the interests of society. He here could enter into a long explanation, but he would not trouble the House with a theological diseuesion. The Catholic religion admitted of no change. It was said it was different to what it was in the time of their fore fathers. Het thought not. It certainly had none of the charity of the Protestant faith. It was asked what was to be done ? He would say, enforce obedience to the lawn, but let the Constitution he Protestant. Let the Ministers of the Crown he Protestant, and he hoped and earnestly prayed that the Establishments of the eonntry would continue Protestant. His Grace's concluding teentetome were spoke in so low a tone that we could not catch their import. The Bishop of OXFORD anti another Noble Lord rose - at the same time, but the latter gave way. The Bishop then proceeded. My Lorde, ever since I had a seat in this House, my opinion has been in favour of concession, and my ex perience since has confirmed my opinion. In giving my support to this Bill, I feel I should not he justified in giving a silent vote ; for afterwards motives which I never entertained might be assigned as the reasons. Attached as I am to the Protestant Constitution I never emild support any measure that I thought would tend to injure that Constitution, but I certainly think that the present measure will strengthen it. It will be said, that it is incumbent upon me to prove the necessity ef this measure. I feel fully convinced of its ne neseity from the present state of Ireland,' by the !liege milittry force that is necessary to keep that country in tranquillity, and I think I am fully justified in this opi nion by the divisions in both Houses of Parliament. I will appeal to the state of this House and ask a Noble Duke on the cross-benches, who certainly has displayed a generous opposition to the measure, whether he did not perceive that every illy the public mind was more and more in favour of concessions. Look to the younger Members of this House, and to those lately called to the councils of his Majesty. Every one of them was in favour of the measure.—(Hear, hear.)— Does not this, my Lords, show that permanent exclusion Is impossible.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—All the talent arid the education of the country is in favour of conces sion. I do not deny that there is a strong opposition to the Bill, but I feel convinced that it cannot be suc cessfully opposed by any human power, and if sonic Noble Londe think it en evil, let us put our trust in a Being who can bring good out of evil.—(Load cheering.)—These are not the only grounds that have actuated me in supporting this measure. First, it comes recommended by his Ma jesty's speech from the throne; secondly, by the strong and decided e - ieelaration of the heir presumptive; thirdly, by the immense. majority, supported by which it come:, up to us from the other House of Parliament ; fourthly, by the support of every branch of the Royal Family whh the exception of the Noble Duke on the cross bench—(Loud cheers)___fiftbly, by policy and expediency ; sixthly, by the opinions of the Noble Chancellor of the University of Oxford ; seventhly, by those Noble Lords who fought under the banners of that illustrious Statesman now removed by Providence from the head of the councils of this country ; and lamely, this measure comes recommended by the support of Ministers, hitherto considered—and justly, I think—the champions of the Protestant church and of her interest. These are eh- curnetaneee:which have very much influencedmy mind, and f would ask what effect woult . l be produced if the measure mere successfully resisted. The interests of the Church or State certainly eauld not he benefitted. I can contem plate, my Lords, nothing less then anarchy and blood shed—and after a number of years spent in such a war fare, things then certainly would remain in the s tme unsettled state, for the Catholic claims never could be permanently resisted, and therefore it would be impolitic zny longer to delay it. I will ask, suppose if all those friendly to concession were excluded from the Ministry, who would there be capable of conducting our public Affairs ? To whose hands should we intrust the great concerns of the Protestant interest on which this whole question turns ? I have a great respect for the Noble Duke who, by an establishment he has founded in the school to which he owes his education, proves his wish for theadvancement of God's glory and for the growth of tree learning, as also for the Noble Earl who has distin gniehed himself for his zeal in the Protestant cause; hut still, with all my respect for them, I cannot, in the present circumstances of the country, venture to do that which may commit the care of the Church to their hands. cannot furget that the Church of England was once, and nnce c , nly, laid prostrate in the dust, and that that was not by the iatriguinz of Papists but by the v i o l ence of rh.ffi.i; zl~ pin itans, infuriated to madness by the violent assertion of those high church principles which were ":oleo eeeen in the time of Ch isles. the First. Whether those principles are true or false, I Will riot 'row discuss; but they are principles Which I iievele :rave and never will advecateee (eheers)-;—aft t have observed that in their it'rg;ttiliat ope ration they tend to nothing but to 'tkasperate. If the re ection of this measnext ;ought such principles into full operation t ehould fear a re-action, whieh 'over , Yeow the Church of Eneland e rot slowly and gradually, as it may be i3vettifi•own by the inscrutable decrees of an ellereise 'Providence, but immediately and irrecoveraltly. And for what shall we hazard all thia ? roe the delay of a few years pregnant pith danger to the ecclesiastical and civil interests of the kingdom. Lhivin?e, my Lords, soon after the Npecch from' he 'throne, made up my mind as to the rourse I shunld take on the grounds I have mentioned, I soon found myself alarmed by papetS and pamphlets, not written merely for parry purposes 1;:e interested men, but by great and iritellitent persons re, markahle for their moral. worth. I declare, in the pre sence of your Lordship., that I never felt ar xiety so in tense as that with which my mind was filled by the pe ruutl of these papers.—( Here the Rev. Prelate rend an extract from the letters of the Rev, Mn Eibeia in which that gentleman urges that it would he an insult to God for Members of either Howie erf Parliament, who had sworn that the doctrine of the mass was irkhi.trnoi, rt; i4p ,, rt the measure of t: wumeipatiorr.)—:••The tne of argument, my Lords, here pursued is, that all who vote in favour of this measrre vote fOr a political union with idolatry, which God has denottnced ; and that, therefore, all who vote in sup:. port of this measure are doing theft titmtn.t to hfing npon the nation the eteire end indgment of :Almi6hty tlod. Sad sod fearful indeed would be Cohtiequence here creed if the pretniseS foiend±d in reason. It is the publicity, my Lotk!s, *bleb these letters have received (and I know that their publicity has been great, for I myself received no less than eleven copies)—( Hear, hear, hear)—that hat been the cause why the minds of many of tilu clergy have been influenced against thin measure ; and it is that pub licity and its eltectS Which have induced me to mention these lettere in this place. I looked with great anxiety at tl4 effect which this argument of the Rev. Gentleman's might have, and a few days afterwards I wrote t'a him, and told him that, although a theological Union was forbidden, a political one was not: The proof was this :—the Al mighty-, in the earlier ages of the world, had a chosen I)n:c t tle, to whom all the practices of idolatry were pro• hihited, and who were not even allowed to enter into con tract., or to have any intercourse rith idolatrous nations, and upon this ground it is contended at the present day that no union ought to take place between the followers of the Established Church of England and the Church of .urine. But the parties setting forth such an argument may be beaten upon their own grounds, for, by the authoe r:ty to which they refer, it appears that the curse of God was pronounced not only upon political unions, but also upon all unions of commerce. If, therefore, we are to be intted by this law, we must have incurred the curse of the Almighty, for our trade and commerce with China, Turkey, and other idolatrous nations, as also for our inter course with France, Italy, and Spain, who differ with us in some parts of our creed, and who are willing to acknowledge the infallibility of a man. But, as much has been said upon this subject, I have looked to the text of the New Testa ment, and that, I can assure the Noble Lords now present, with no inconsiderable elegree of anxiety. It is to be found in the Apocalypse; but I beg to say that it has as little to do with political union as any thing that can be ima gined. It is contended that the Roman Catholics are to be considered as an idolatrous people, because they have sworn their belief in the invocation of saints; but I beg to say, that I do not believe that the professors of the Ca tholic religion do actually believe in such invocations. I have passed the early part of my days in close connection with many of tile Catholic clergy, and I must beg to say that I have always found them to he men of ge at inte grity and worth—men who, upon the point of idolatry, might be considered to be just as great idolators as myself —men, many of whose spirits have by this time passed into those eternal kingdoms where idolatry may never - enter. The opinions that I entertained upon this subject I pot into print some time ago, upon an occasion when imputations were raised against the Established Church— when an attempt was endeavoured to be made to prove that the principles of that Church were the same as the Church of Rome. I then stated publicly, and with a view to make my opinions upon the subject known, that I did not believe the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church to be the same now that it was in former centuries. When I say, however, that I do not believe the doctrine of that Church to be the same that it formerly was—l do not mean to say that the tenets of their faith are changed or altered—they no doubt are the same they were at the time of the Reformation—but I mean to say that I du nut believe that the Catholic Church now vests in itself the power of deposing Kings. As this declaration was made by me some years ago, I at least hold myself acquitted of having adopted, for the first time, the opinions I have now stated, now that the present measure is brought forward by his Majesty's Government. It has been said that every dignitary of the church of Eogland, and in fact that every clergyman who supports this measure, has been guilty of a defection from scriptural truth. Such has been the as sertion of an individual with whose natne I sin acquainted, hut which, for obvious reasons, I shall now forbear to mention. But when that individual made a charge, at tacking alike the rich and the poor who_ were attached to that church for which he prefessed so strong an attach ment, I do think that lie ought at least to have brought forward some shadow of truth, some sort of ground upon which to support it. I do think that he who has charged all the clergy of England would have done much better if he had tried to follow- the example of the Eternal Son of God.—(Hear. )—Having so far stated my opinions upon this great question, I leave it to vou, my Lords, to pass upon them such a sentence as sisall appear just in your minds, but at the same time you must believe that they have been formed, upon reflection, and have been uttered with sincerity. The next objection made to this measure is, that this question is not to be argued on the ground of expediency. There was certain'y some questions which could only be argued on the ground of morality and the will of God, and much evil had been done in the seven teenth century on the Elea of expediency. But when an act is not unjust or evil in itself I think it may be fairly argued whether it be expedient. If there he sin committed in agreeing to the present question, it is a sin that has long been going on. The Act that allowed the Catholic Clergy to settle in the country, to say mass— to buy land, I need not repeat them all, but they all ettahlish the principle entertained in this measure. I am told there is a great difference between those Acts and the present, but in the principle of establishing that the profession of a religion which you believe to be untrue may be consistent with safety to the state, they both agree. It is said, the oaths appointed to he taken by the Act may place the consciences of Protestants iu a state of danger, as the Catholics are not re quired to denounce the spiritual authority of the Pope, whilst the Protestants are required to declare they have no spiritual authority in this kingdom ; and it has been argued that not requiring a similar annunciation from the Catholics, may be considered by Protestants in recognition of that spiritual authority. In a memorial of the Clergy it is stated that the oaths in the Bill are calcnlated to lay a snare for the consciences of those Universities, which take an oath denying the spiritual au thority of the Pope. This, however, is not a charge, but an objection, which no more applies to the oath in this Bill but in former Bills.—(Hear, hear. ) In the Acts of 1778 and 1791 the Roman Catholics are only required to renounce the temporal power of the Pope. The objection to the oath is as old as the oath itself, for when the Act of 1778 was passed, a petition was presented by Protestants, who were very much alarmed lest, after the passing of that Act, they should be involved in the guilt of perjury, by taking the oath of supremacy which was required of them; so that to remove this objection it would now he necessary to re peal the Acts of 1778 and 1791. The House of Com mons of that day took this object into their consideration, and resolved that the 18th of the King did not allow spiritual authority of the Pope of Rome in this kingdom.—(Hear, hear.)—The present Bill contained no mere recognition of the Pope's authority than that Bill.—(Hear, hear.) — The spiritual authority formerly exercised by the Pope in this country was exercised through the ,Spiritual Courts, which were completely abolished at the time of the Reformation, and which certainly the present Bill had no tendency to restore.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was net his intentien to enter into the argument with the Noble and . Learned Lord, whether the Constitution, as es tablished at the Revolution, was made exclusively Protestant, as the only question now was, whether it were to continue in that state. The men by whom the Constitution was established at the Revolution were as wise and as able men as ever governed a country; they did not establish a Protestant Constitution and leave it unprotected, they did not allow either Popish Pries!, or Jesuits to establish settlements in England to buy land, and only prevent their coming to Westmin ster Hall. We are not now to be told that the citadel is in the same state as when surrounded by the fortifications which they had erected fur its defence, but which 4 been since overthrown. When the Legislature repealed those laws, and allowed Catholics to teach schools, they burst (Town the bulwarks with which our ancestors had sur rounded the Protestant Constitution, and protected it from danger by new penal statutes, down to George the Second. I come now to the bearing this question will I have nn the Church.of England, and from the best consider tion l have bets able to give that most important part of • the subject, I have come to the conclusion that it will not he productive of danger. The great in the numbery of the e Papirts th?. 1 . -rorestants of this country, and the . etrMog feeling of the people against the supersti tions of Popery, convince me that there is no danger of its establishment in this kingdom.....(Hear.)—l hope I may now advert for one moinctt to the reflection's 441 have been Veseri brow the Clerg:e for tb oliposliion to inealdre. The elerry h'eve Shown theMselves what I belieVid them to be, a body of fear'ess, independent, ;6ilest men. It is true the Clergy haven-rote petitions against the measures, and encouraged their pocks to sign theca; in this I think thy have done wisely. The right sf petit'_ce. as well been called the safety-valve of the State. An Englishman, when he petitions the Legis lature in any measure feels that he has done his duty, and remains perfectly quiet t.ftt.sr the event, and I am persuaded thet the present peace and tranquillity o f this tsant.try owing in a great degree to the conduCt of the Cler g y who uniformly advised the people; after they had petitioned; to leave she Consideration of the sub• ect ttl th 4 Ugislaturc. By the present state of th - e iaw, the Church of is exposed to very serious danger ; our ministers are vilified, and our revenues magnified, though there never was a church on earth which contained a clergy of more leatnitig and • worth.—more acti4•se arid tealriiia in the discharge of their tlutlts. She is brought into collisiop with the church, not indeed established, but possessing great influence over the people, governed by 22 Bishops. having under their eontroul 3,000 clergy, not responsible to any authority in this country, having flocks deeply imbued with supersti. - - tion. The question now it not whether there he danger in the present State of that church, but whether the present Iheatire increases or diminishes that danger. I think the danger will be diminished. I see in the provisions of the present Bill the dawn of a brighter day for the Church of Ireland.—( Hear, hear, hear.) , ---e-Aftee the passing of this Act tranquility will be restored, property witl he , eeenred, English capital and the r. tutns of the landed proprietors of that country will give employ ment, content, and comfort to the people of Ireland. To the Aristocracy of England, I do not hesitate to en trust the care of the rights of the Church. Let the united Church of England and Ireland rest securely_ under your protection. I am bound to speak on this subject with great caution, but having attentively considered the measures now before your Lordships, I have no hesitation in ex pressing my humbles but confident hope that it will even tually benefit the country without endangering the bul warks of the Protestant Church or existing establishments. Upon these grounds I cannot withhold my support from the measure. The Duke of RICHMOND—I am at all times unwil ling to trespass en your Lordships' attention, but after what has fallen from the Right Rev. Frei ite, I feel bound to say a few words upon the subject new before your Lord ship.. The Right Rev. Prelate has spoken of the accession of talent which appeared on that side the question. He recol lected that bat year he had the benefit not only of his Right Rev. Friend's eloquence, hut what was of much more importance, of his vote. However, it appeared that the " march of intellect" was making rapid strides indeed ; for in the short space, the shot t period of one year, that talent, that eloquence, and that vote were opposed to them. In that short time he had changed his sentiment., and he (the Duke of Richmond) could not attribute it to any thing but an extraordinary enlightenment on reading the King's Speech. He confessed that his sentiments were unchanged. He had always thought that concessions granted would only lead to further demands, and until he was satisfied that there was no longer any danger to be apprehended, he would not consent. The Bishop of SALISBURY opposed the measure. The Earl of WINCHILSRA was unwilling to trouble their Lordships with a repetition of the sentiments which he had so frequently dechired upon this important ques— tion, but he would go at once into the principles of the Bill which had for its ohjezt, as he conceived, the over throw of the Constitution. Thu House was called on to abandon principles which it had long sustained, and lie would ask upon what grounds, upon what securities? He (the Earl of Winchilsea) must now advert to the pledge given by the Noble Duke that that Bill would have the effect of strengthening the Church Establishment. The Bill was now before their Lordships, and he would ask had that pledge been borne out? They were told that whilst it would quiet the complaints of the Catholics, it would also satisfy the Protestants. What proof was there that it gave satisfaction to the Protestants of Eng land? He would take the answer from the numerous petitions against the measure pouring in from the most distant parts of the kingdom. He thought that this was the best answer to the solemn assurance of satis faction. Ile thought this a sufficient reason why this most base experimental measure should not be enter- tained—a measure which he conceived Would act as a check to the growth of liberty and the best interests of rel , giun. He boldly affirmed that the Protestants of this realm slid not consider the Bill upon the table afforded that protection which they were bound to require. It was for this reason that they had come to such conclusion. It was true that before the period of 1668, there had been a dawn of liberty which had ebbed or flowed in proportion to the increase or decrease of Popery. But he believed it would be found that whatever had been good or pure in the Government of any country, had emanated from Protestantism. He would ask their Lordships, weie they now, for the first time, to permit daring Irish reels to say that they were afraid to vindicate their rights, and protect that Constitution which they so much venerated. He would ask their Lordships, what would be the effect of granting- concessions to them who were openly and se cretly enemies to Protestantism ? Was it possible that it could tend to strengthen that establishment? If that were so, why was it necessary to ask for any securities at all 7—(Hear, hear.)—For his own part he had as yet not heard any thing of securities, and would therefore conjure his Right Rev. Brethren to weigh well the deep responsibility of their sacred character in their consideration of this measure, and lie trusted that their Lordships would still prove to the country that they were neither to he intimidated nor seduced into giving their sanction to a measure which involved the best interests of the country. The Noble Earl concluded by seconding the amendment. Lord SOMERS had long made up his mind on this mea sure. He was satisfied itehould have been granted long since. Two of the greatest Statesmen of their day who differed on most other questions agreed on this. He was confirmed in that opinion by the majority which the measure had so frequently obtained in the other House. He had heard with regret the interference of Clergymen in the promo. tion of petitions en this subject, and whether for or against, he thought it most improper. It was not suitable to their sacred calling, who if they had followed the dictates of the Bible,would have been promoters of peace rather than strife. He was decidedly in favour of the Bill ; but if he could he persuaded that it would have the effect which some con tended would be the result, if its tendency were to change the country from being a Protestant to a Roman Catholic country, he should then as stoutly resist it as he was now prepared to support it. In such else, he could as sure their Lordships that he should wholly give up the measure. But on what ground was so extraordinary charge preferred ? On what ground was it contended, that such would be, or was likely to be, the operation of the Bill ? What, it might he asked, could the minority beat the majority.—(Hear, hear.)—Almost all in this country were Protestants; the Roman Catholics were here very few in number, they were as an atom compared with the Protestants; then where was the chance, the rational ground for saying that the Protestants so outnum bered the Roman Catholics, that this Bill would hay e the effect of changing the country from Protes tant to Roman Catholic. But there was not only the security in the number of the Protestants, but also in the state and character of the representation. Out of six hundred and fifty-eight Members, Ireland had the oppartu nity of sending one hundred, and could that small number out-vote those Members, who would all, or nearly all, be Protestants, sent by the other portion of the empire. How, on any principles, under any circumstances, could they have such weight as to overturn the Consti tution, and to secure the ascendancy to the Roman Ca tholics ? Besides, they all knew that the Protestant religion was that of the State, and secured by the laws. There was avowedly no danger except the country became Roman Catholic ; and how could the country become Roman Catholic all at once?—(Hear, hear, hear.)—At present they were all Protestants iu that House; • and when this Bill passed there would be an addition to their numbers of six or seven Peers, who being Roman Catholics had not now seats.—(Hear, hear.)—How was it possible that they could have so alarming an influence on the 300 or 400 Members of that House: and was it not very unlikely that any Sovereign ever should or could create such a number of Roman Catho lics as to give a preponderance to the votes of members of that religion ? lie had been striving to find out some reasons for the alarm of some persons, but he had been utterly unable to discover any. He could not find any groands for the alarm as to the Protestant religion or establishment being in danger. After all the irritation that bad been excited, and after the daily agitations that had milted, the question would now pot °sly be cet at rest, but adjusted , avisfacterilv. It it were not, let it be remembered what might be the situation of the country? ,Let it ~he borne. in mind, what i wonld he the ,influence op , the iira?ulation of, a neighbour. : i;arcictuar;y toe tower orders : should they be able to force men from that country into their army and navy ? They who had heretofore rushed to fill their tanks and to man their fleets. Thus it would be aren, if ere influence of rejection were such, how greai ti il;flt, be the real danger of the country-. But fint only 'thighs:. the 4reat and serious dangef be exten slim in nut being aide to. get • those men into our army and navy, the diffieulty would operate in another direction, for they must calculafti on having an atmy con stantly employed iii keeping finch a population down., (ftear.)--Then in either point of view the danger was ex cessive. If this Bill did not pass—if conciliation was not now effected, the alarms that had been hinted at were absurd, the dangers that hid been hinted were groundless; they had been incfely put forward upon assumed asser tions-:—on the fact of a few Ronian Catholic Members gaining admission into each House. Why, it would be, let then atiiolitsbeerersosuccessful,lotolagainstthem: Then how could they overturn the Protettant Religion ? The assertion was preposterous, and the argument was ridicu lous. He would now come to what had been the state of Ireland ; he would not say what it was, because the pros . . pert of the measures had already greatly !t . md. eliorate the condition of that country.— , (Hear.)--z.Whtit had been the laws afflicting that country? Why to kill an Irishman was not murder ; a million might be killed, and yet it was not murder. Was that calculated to make the governed grateful or obedient to the governors?— (Hear, hear.)—Then came the Reformation, but it was no Reformation to Ireland. No effort was made to reform rem`oily the ahusea of that unfortunate country. Were such proceedings calculated to bring people from Popery to Protestantism ? No ; they had seen the result, the faith was continued from father to son—the Roman Catholic religion continued there as strong as it was before the Reformation. And did the reign of Queen Elizabeth do any thing more for the benefit of Ireland? No, certainly not. And again in the wretched reign of Charles I. Ireland was once more conquered and doom e d t o f res h calamities. The Revolution followed, but still secured no benefits to Ireland. For this country that event secured advantages. It adjusted differences between Catholics and Protestants, or rather secured the Protestants, but the Re volution did nothing for Ireland. Under all these circum stancts, looking back and seeing how England had treated Ireland, and remembering whit Ireland had lately done, would it be safe, just, or politic, to leave that unhappy country in its present anxious condition ? Wonld it be right to do nothing for Ireland ? No man, he tl:ought, would answer that inquiry in the affirmative.— And be it remembered, as some excuse for the events of the Revolution, is au explanation why the Catholics were left in the condition of which they complained, the ob jects of the great men at that period were to keep the Co tholics tightly down. Why ? Because James had recently lost his throne, and that on account of his adherence to the Catholic faith. That event was then recent, and the Sovereign who had abdicated still had many adherents to his person and claims. Some of them were most powerful their numbers were great, and there was a strong, exist ing, and alarming feeling. Then there was a great pressing and obvious danger. All circumstances consi dered, he thought there was much reason to make allow ances for the events of such a period : but still, be it re membered, nothing was then done for Ireland. —(There were some signs of impatience in the House.) Ile re gretted that he had occasion thus far to trespass on the indulgence of their Lordships, but there was one other point on which he wished to make a remark or two : he meant the Coronation Oath. He denied that it afforded any argument whatever for the Sovereign to throw any obstacle in the way of this Bill. He main tained that there was nothing in the oath that did not leave the King at perfect liberty to approve this Bill. To deny that, was to deprive the Sovereign of his most essential powers. The Oath bound the Sovereign to se cure the Bishops and Clergy in all their rights and privi leges. Why, good God ! what was there in this Bill to affect those rights and privileges?—(Hear, hear.)—They would not he affected or injured ; on the contrary, he firmly believed that by conceding this measure those rights and privileges would be strengthened. Certainly those rights and privileges of the Bishops and Clergy would not be affected by this Bill ; they would afterwards remain what they now were—and quite as secure.— (Hear.)— On all these, grounds the Bill now before their Lordships had his most cordial concurrence. The Earl of HAREWOOD next addressed their Lord ships, but in so low a tone of voice that hut little of what he said could be heard below the Bar. We understood his Lordship to say that whatever might have been his feelings on the Catholic Question ; those feelings had been consi derably increased since the present Bill had come before Parliament. What, he woad ask, were the reasons assigned for giving the Catholics political power? they were told it was on the ground of expediency ; from what was that argument drawn? Certain proceedings bad taken place in Ireland, which had the effect of bringing that country into an organized state. They were under the influence of :the Catholic Association, when a Bill vas brought before the House for the purpose of putting down that Association; what were the grounds on which that Bill was introduced ? It was because a power existed in Ireland which should not be suffere d to exist in that country. 'I hose persons who had so declared, also told you that they would support the Association, unless other measures were conceded.—( The Noble Lord was here for some time inaudible. - When we again caught his Lordship's voice, he proceeded as follows)—Atty thing like the As cendancy of Catholicism was inconsistent with the principles of civil and religious liberty—(Hear.)— and every part of the Bill seemed to declare that Catholicism was daugerous to the State. He heartily wished that the measure might turn out well, but there was nothing like a sect"' ity that it would do so, or he would vote fir the measure with cheerfulness. After a few more observations, his Lordship resumed his seat. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then rose and spoke as follows :—My Lords, I offer myself to the attention of the House on the present occasion, because I feel that if I did not do so it would be construed into a dereliction of that duty which I have for so many years performed in this Honse, and upon this im portant question. I feel it incumbent on me to restate, and I will do so as shortly as possible, the grounds on which I have advocated the Catholic claims and the opinions which I have for so long a time entertained. The danger attending the refusal of those claims has been year after year iocreasing up to the very time when his Majesty's Ministers determined to take them into coneidera tion..—(llear, hear, hear. )—The Noble Lord had said, that he could bring himself to grant every thing to the Catholics except political power. I thought then that political power was already obtained by the Ca tholies, and I also think that this measure will re move that power which exists, and has manifested itself for the purposes of mischief. It exists in the immediate contact with the Protestant community and in spite of a Protestant aristocracy. The Noble Earl, however, be fore he sat down, bad answered his own argument, for headmitted that in Ireland the C &toile Association had fixed itself so firmly that it went even the length of throwing out threats against the King's Government, which it would never dared to have done but for the artificial system of government in that country. The Noble Lord had at tempted to point out the inconsistency of the measure, in asmuch as it tended to extinguish certain powers, while it conferred others of the same description. It was said that this Association should he put down. But it was impossible to extinguish it, unless they connected the aloes from which it was formed with the Legislature and gave them the means of asserting their rights, and making known their grievances through the only legal channel. The means of doing so their Lordships had heard, and in his opinion they were means conducive to the safety of the Church and State.—( Hear, hear.)—The Right Reverend Pre late at the head of the Church of Ireland, had addressed some observations to the noose, and stated that the whole question turned upon the possibility of this measure giving tranquillity to Ireland. Now I close with that proposition, and if it can be shown that it is not calculated to produce tranquillity, I mast withdraw that support which I have always given to the Catholic claims.—(Hear, hear.)—The Right Reverend Prelate had stated as a reason for opposing this question, that he had perceived in a newspaper, in which his Majesty's Speech was announced, an account of certain proceedings which had happened ulterior to the time when his Majesty's recommendation was read from the throttle. These proceedings attributed to the Catholics an intention of pushing their claims beyond even that truly liberal measure which was recently brought before them. Ile aloi truly said that the agitators had originated these proceedings, and that the opinion of the Catholic nobility was of a more moderate de scription ; but that they had no influence among the Association. Now, then, I ask, why is it that they have had no influence ? Why is that they to whom every society looks to temper popular ebullitions, and to extinguish feuds where they exist, how is it that their influence should be of no avail, and that the communication which they have formed between the Government and people should be cut off ?_(Long and continued cheers.)—l here deny, my Lords, that this will give power to the Catholic*. Its principal effect will be beneficial; -.r +~ „ . the Catholic. persona of property will be willing to become once as heretofore a lidk between GoVernment And the people. That link which is now wititingwil: b!.! The Ripht Re:. Prelate has, told us that thiS m ea s ure "be the meaiis fnitire• dia4rGr, but on the contrary I look to it as the means, as the 6.-NtetY means, which will enable us to look forward with hop' to the future tranquillity of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)-- qtrestion confines itself to two or three id a question whether there be any infirmity—fol. I!ifitinity must call it as established in this country, which inetk it impoisible for us at present to give to the whole country the befiefitt of that Constitution which exists in all the other countries, and Wiletbev there it any thing in the Constitution Of the country- wticii pie- Vents carrying that diy policy into ofeciition. lily Lords, I shall not go into arguments that have been before gone beet, to prove either by the Statutes of the country or by the ReVolution of 1688, that that was the permanent ex. , elusion of the Roman Catholics. I contend that there is no evidence in any of the stattites to show that. I contend it was not the sense in which King William trek it ; that Parliament did Mot sti understand it, and that the sta. , tuff§ proved the direct contrary. But the evidence in the English Parliament is not the only evidence we have on this subject. I think it very strong collateral evidence when I tell you that the Scottish Parliament in the Act of Union with England so understood it; and in deed it is only within the last ..V4 hours that I have read the Act of the Scottish Parliament, by which I need not tell you that they understand it in the earne way.— The Presbyterians were still more averse to Popery than the Church of England, and if there had been anything like indifference on the part of the English lan, the Scotch would not have failed to come forward and snpplied that which was deficient in that part of the law as it then existed. Now there is a provision to make. The establishment of the Union is permanent by the Scottish Acts. Then there is one to make the Courts of Quarter Sessions permanent. Then comes the simple clause with respect to the oaths to be taken by Chancellors during continuance in office. I have, there fore, better evidence that it was the policy of the Scottish Parliament, as it was that of the English, not to look forward to that which might be the most injurious to our Government ; namely, the permanent exclusion of the Roman Catholics. The Presbyterian religion is perhaps the most averse to the Boman Catholic of any in existence. In hearing what the opinion of the Presbyterian then was, it may not be amiss that your Lordships should hear what is their opinion now, for we have the Bill sent up from the other House, and it does so happen that though a Noble Duke has presented a petition from Scotland against this question, and which was repre sented to have the names of all the persons in Scotland opposing the Bill, it appears that no less than forty Re presentatives of Scotland have sapper-ter] the measure. I think it somewhat extraordinary that in the speeches of those who in and out of the House have argued the measure, they should be perpetually inviting to historical discussion on this subject—that they should he saying you are to con sider this and then that—and after they hare pointed out all the differences, they turn round and tell you that if all the great mass of the people of England were drawn up in array by numerical figures, the greatest number are the persons best able to decide upon the Question. No person can hold the opinions of the people more sacred than I do. But I cannot consider this the reflected and reconsidered opinion of the people that this measure should not he carried forward. 1 have given my vote in favour of this Bill, not because it gives political power to the Catholics, but because it removes encroachments. It does not add danger to time Church, Let us, my Lords, for a moment consider whet aat danger is:which is contended for by the opponents of this Bill to be the result of the measure ? It is suppose d, and has been stated by the Right Rev. Prelates to-night, that a person was to be elected who had not authority to sit in the House—that he had gained an influ nee which neither the influence nor the power of the Church Establishment, nor the purity of that doctrine which the Church establishment is capable to support, would tend to con troul ; but that it would be the means of bringing a sys tem of error into this enlightened age, to captivate the understindings, and overthrow the Protestant religion. I admit, my Lords, that this is a possible consequence, buts it is highly improbable. If these possibilities are to be expected, I only wonder that any of your Lordships have been able to sleep in your beds for the last hundred years.—(Much langhter.)— Let me ask the House to consider, and above all let me ask the Right Rev. Bench to consider, what are the dan gers to which the Church is exposed in the present state of things. I say, if there is any way more than another to gain thousands and thousands of enemies to the Church, it is by continuing to oppose the proposed measure. The sons of millions of Roman Catholics of Ireland are daily to be told that be their education and their knowledge what it may, there is one bar they must get over before they can attain political power, namely, the Church of England. The Right Rev. Prelate who spoke last hoped, if this measure passed, his Majesty's Government would adopt some measure for the purpose of destroying the Priesthood of Ireland. Now, I think, the most efficacious step to be taken for that purpose is the passing of the measure now before your Lordships.—(Hear.)—l do not know whether it has struck your Lordship. as worthy of remark ; but it certainly has struck me, that in the election which took place at the dissolution of Parliament in 1826, the Roman Catholic priesthood did show a dis position to interfere ; and not only did they show this disposition, but they actually did interfere with a very great and monopolizing power—so it is alleged. Now it happened, that within a year of the same time, in France, there was a dissolution of Parliament, and the Roman Catholics thought that they had or ought to have had a great object in influencing the election.—(Hear.) — In that country they did not succeed ; but in Ireland they succeeded to a considerable extent ; and why ? Because in Ireland there was an exclusion which was calculated to produce a false, a mischievous Government, if you will, h e s a powerful one. I say, in that view of the question Ireland requires the most serious consideration of your Lordships. I most sincerely warn your Lordships not to mistake time nature of those exclusions and dis abilities which under the operation of particular times and necessities have been engrafted upon tile Constitu tion. It has been truly said, my Lords, that those agita tions, arising out of temporary religious feuds, resemble the occasional eruptions of the volcano which disturb the natural world. I sincerely wish that these measures had been adopted at an earlier period—at the Union of Ire land with England, when the measure alluded to by the Noble Duke was brought forward to effect the object now sought to be accomplished. For then all these evil conse quences would, in the spirit of a statesman-like policy, have been prevented. But I believe the time is not now too late, and I am grateful to his Majesty for avowing that policy. I trust the measure will be successful, fir I our happy to add, that in the construction of this Bill I see nothing but a just regard to the State, and that which will afford happiness to six millions of loyal subjects. The Bishop of OXFORD explained. The Bishop of LONDON said, my Lords, it is not my intention to trouble your Lordships with a lengthened statement of the objections I have to this measure. Because I entered at length into the reasons which in. duced are to withhold my assent from a similar measure on a former occasion, and nothing has happened Niece to induce me to alter my opinion, but, on the contrary, from all the evidence produced in this and the ether House, and from every additional information I have gained respecting Ireland, I am satisfied that the immediate re moval of the Catholic disabilities is certainly not that re lief which Ireland needs.—(Cries of Hear, hear.) — The removal of such disabilities will not touch one of the most serious evils which harass that country. Before I enter into some of my objections to this measure, I may he permitted to say one word on what the Noble Marquis who last addressed the House has said ; with all my respect for him, I must say that he has placed the Church of England somewhat unfairly when he states that if their consent to the measure is withheld, it will keep up the agitation of Ireland. It would have been fairer to have said, if the Constitution withheld its con sent, for the Church of England is a part of that Constitution, and a most essential part it is. —(Hear, hear. )—Therefore I say, it is not fair to say, the Church of England is the only obstacle in the way of grant ing what the Catholics now require. But under any circum stances, I cannot regard the concessions now asked as likely to produce that pacification which it is desirous should be brought about. How can we regard that measure which settles only one point as calculated to produce that desirable peace and quiet, when there are a great number of other points on which there is the greatest dissatifaction. I am persuaded, as I hope I may say without any violation of charity towards a body of men who I believe for some years have been discharging what they considered their duty, that the Church of Ireland will never be satisfied till it has obtained those ulterior ends it has in view, or until its members can be convinced it is impossible to obtain them, and that conviction is not likely to be wrought in their minds by success on the present occasion. —( Applause.)—The power proposed by the Catholic priesthood in Ireland, the Noble Marquis has attri buted to the disqualifications which it is said it is the object of this Bill to remove. But, my Lords, it don not appear clear to me that the power possessed by the Catholics of Ireland, doge arise from a Imo of disalailitiool4a moo lEdt which never came across tbeir minds till within the 1 0. , few years--a notion which arose during a long series es misfakee and ttlitigovernment, (I have ro wish 0 ?*fie the Word offensively) its the conduct of that inthapff , country, eel which, if I were to go into, might sloes! thoie feelings in cite !forme which were raised to a coroy cleokble degree, when I adv'entei to the cireurnetancee before , It must 7te admitted that the Catholic religion was as IP' tolerant as ever, and the power exercised by the Priests net in the least shaken. The. Noble Marquis who *poll' left hail compared the Romen Catholie religion with that of the Prethytetien, I will not enter into the difference, bet merely assert that they .rerrrrot by any possibility bear* comparison. I will merely stat. whet I consider owe' sere in justification of my vote; bdt if the mewl° passes iftto is law, which in all probability it wily I will de all in very power to inculcate obedience, 0 0 hope it will peoie for the good of the country. It is ne my intentiotr to enter into a long discussion on the religioue points bearing co this question ; but I must oils there Was econethiog to be expected from a Christian Government, from a duty it owes , to the Protestant estn bliehment to propose some security, but this is a subject on which em much might be said on both sides, that I ars furtive: to meter into it.—(Dear, hear.)---' Much has been stld abont the clergy having ie etteingly expressed their opinions, I feel it my duty to e late , that those opinions were not given from any want 03 Cbrist;an charity, but entirely out of zeal her their relic gion. The Noble Mattinis had said that instead of nod' tiling with polities, it would be better if they paid moo attention to their flocks. Now I toOtst tell the Noble Ltd that he does riot know what he has beer talking about.-'. What, my Lords, have said has been in joetif'eation of the vote I feel it toy duty to give against this meestiret and not to raise np any tanneeesitary oppotitit It gives roe great pain to differ with foal Noble Lew' *hose opinions I so greatly respect. a entertain tea greatest friendship arid esteem for the Members of 1 ;7, Majesty's Ministry', and I can place the most trielirtaifeu e confidence in the Noble Duke at the head of it, to whom A owe el debt of gratitude which I nerer can repay ; to Min I owe the high situation I have the honour to fill in ths Church ; and if this measure Roses into a law, which have no doubt it will, I shall feel it my duty to imi press upon the Clergy of my diocese a cheerful acquiescerta 9 ' and by so doing, I feel convinced that they will incred their strength; but if we find that the prevent measure should give the Catholics an advantage over us, I shag look with confidence to Ministers to increase oet means of doing good by providing pieces of worobiT• I must say that it is not without some fear that I look it" the consequences of this Bill, although at the same time 1 do not feel any alarm for the ultimate welfare of the Pre" testant Church. If there is a struggle to take place 1 " 4 us do our duty, and there is nothing to fear.—(Hear.7 The Marquis of LANSDOWNE explained. The Marquis of SALISBURY said that when he had the honour to move the Address to his Majesty, ift answer to his most gracious speech, he was hilly *mate that some great change was shout to take place, hot he never fur a moment supposed that it would be done with out good securities to the Protestant Constitution. The ore" sent Bill was totally devoid-of any security, and the more he considered it the more he was convinced of its danger. No set of men ought to possess political power in greater proportion than they possessed interest in the welfare of the State. The Noble Duke and his Majesty". Government seemed determined to give them'every think —(Hear.) The Roman Catholics' first and only motive, was to increase their power, and he was firmly centime' that it would he impossible to devise any oath that would effectually secure the interests of the Protestant Reli gion. He was surprised that any person cord think that this measure could be carried without is good and sufficient security. Government ought long *V. to have resorted to measures which'would have relieve' them from their present aukward dilemma; with r e spect le, the political principle.: of the Bill, he saw nothing to the present state of Ireland which justified the measereo Was it in the vote of the House of Commons that their Lordships thought this Bill might to be carried. if it was, he would refer them to the speech of one Member who was favourable to the measure, on the ground that it was the first step to the Subversion of the Established Church. He (the Marquis of Salisbttry) *es of the same opinion as a late Member of the l e oWer. Homo, but who had a seat in that, if 60 or 70 Catholic Members were admitted they would upset the Protestant establishment. He therefore would net agree to al sure, which had been justly styled the death-warrant of the Constitution. He had strictly waited - hire • self to the danger that he entertained from tire measure. He was unwilling to withdraw 1 his confidence from Ministers. He placed greatest reliance on the Noble Duke, but he must oppose the present Lord WICKLOW had heard the opening speech of the Noble Duke with much eatisifaetion ; he was Ow happy to hear the testimony given in favour of it by the Noble Marquis (Anglesea), who had so good an opportunity of judging of the real state of Ireland. The subject had been viewed in a large and liberal light by Noble Lords who had preceded him, he would therefore notice it in a point in which it had not been viewed,' 1G wo uld call their Lordships' attention to the conditions of the Coo thelics of this country, and would ask what had bean their., c ount they d uc o were T e y k certainly uuw u l) ; were their proudnot known r as high rank in the peerage, by their leatning, their wealth, and their talents, and he would positively ICI that the country owed them a large debt of gratitude ,. from their temperate deportment and uniform good coo' bhei b agitators,, duct. It was the same now that it had been in former tines bearing, y Let their Lordships look back to the conduct of Catholic . during the reign of Queen Elizabeth, when this countri seam invaded by the Roman Catholic powers of Europe:, by whom were they met? The Catholic suliects Queen Elizabeth fitted out ships at their own expencee and raised regiments which were placed under Protestant Commanders, this was one proof of Catholic fidelity to Protestant Crown. Some allusion bad been made during the debate to the Coronation Oath, particularly to that part binding his Majesty to preserve the Protestaxv As" cendancy ; he, Lord Wicklow, did not consider it was *oily' perative as some Noble Lords seemed to think, but if it Wer e : so, in the greatest degree he should consider it to be violation of his oath if he did not support tbi'' Bill, as he conceived it was celenlated to strengthen the Protestant religion.—(Hear, hear. )--He had heard great deal on the subject of petitions, and he thought they did honour to the honest prejudices of the people of England, it showed their love of religions and truth ; but at the same time he must deprecate the means resorted to for getting up those petitions. The vilest placards had been circulated for the purpose of ex citing people against the measure of granting the petitioner s the fullest meaeure of sincerity, he conceived that was reason fur believing that their opposition would he with drawn when the principle of the Bill should be rightly understood. He was aware that some Noble Lords were expected to oppose the measure on the ground of what was called consistency, but he thought that al lowance should be made for the change of circumstances. He concluded by giving his support to the measure: Earl ENNISKILLEN opposed the measure amidst loud cries of adjourn, and go on. The Duke of ATHOL said that he •had been fifty years in that House, and he had known their Lordships sit to a much later hour in the discussion ef important questions. The Earl of ELDON, in a very low tone of voice, re posed an adjournment. Lord TENTERDEN said that the question was, whe ther or not their Lordships should go on with the discus" tion of such vast importance and come to a conclusion in in exhausted state, or whether they ought to ailioarn.-- , (Loud cries of adjourn.) Their Lordships adjourned shortly after ONE O'CLOCK. BIRTHS. On the 29th ult., in York-terrace, Regent's Park, the lads• of Philip Ripley, Esq., of a daughter. On the let iustant, in Finsbury- circus, the lady of Jag, Weston, Esq., of a daughter. On the 30th ult., the lady of the Hon. Edvrard Stafford Jerningham, of a daughter. MARRI ED. On the 2d instant, at St. Michael's, Crooked-lane, Mr. Schen Elwin, of Eldon-street, Finsbury, to Elisabeth, the second daughter of Mr. W.Matlaews. DIED. On the 2d inst. at Woodford, John Popplewell, Et=q• in the 73d year of his age. At his house, Denzil-street, Dublin, George Thormott Esq. many )cars barrack master of the Dublin vicinity. Oil the 29th nit., at his house in Foley-place, Dr. Ed ward Ash, F.R.S., ned 65. On the 2d instant, Mel Ann Gill, eldest daughter of Mr. John Gill, of Grove-street, Hackney. On the Ist instant, after a long and severe iilnese, aged 31•, Mary, the wife of Mr. Goren, of Orchard-wreet, Port man-square,' solicitor. On the 30th ult., aged I£4, Agatha Frances, da•ighter of Mi. A. H. Riv,oi, Stoke Newington. (in the 30th ult., at the Grove, Blackheath, Mrs. Wheatley, aged 72. Palau.'" and Pviaasuza by MURDO YOUNG, at the pus OWN% 11; bran fl LONDON*