The Sun. — London, England, 1829-05-15 00:00:00

iiamburgh, would only amount to 1,116,000/. — These prices were of course exclusive of duty, and there was here a difference of 2,808,0001. He knew it would be said that the tea imported into England was of a b e t ter quality. This he did not think was the rase, but, even supposing it was a little better, wisthat a sufficient reason for taking the sum of 2 ) 8 ° 8 ,0004 out of the pockets of the people of this Q t o support the monopoly of a trade which was not augmentin g . Thi s state of things, he re tedn. , could not continue. It had only, as his Fifend, the Member for Liverpool, had said, commenced to the present extent with the charter which was granted in 1813 ; b e f ore t h at t h e Go vernment had a check and controul over the prices. The trade was given to the East India Company it Was true, but they were obliged t o su ppl y t hi s ttu ntry with a certa i n quantity of tea at a certain 'P r ice, or otherwise there was authority given to pri vate merchants t o i mport i t f rom the country. Un fortutattely thi s controul had not been carried into pear effect s ince the r enewa l o f t h e c h arter, and the Ple were subject to an actual tax of two millions It t nn uallY me re l y to prevent the monopoly of the East 4adia Company. If this were all the didvantage of thepresent system he thought it would sa be deserv ing.the most serious attention of the House; but the thore important evil was that it cut them off from corn ihtree-with th e country which of all others was most l eulated to carry on an extensive trade with Eng land'and import its produce, not to the amount of 81 / or Seven hundred thousand pounds, but of seve ral-Millions annu a ll y . H e was anxious not to press itto long upon the time of the House. What lie ? e.d. to do was merely to give an outline of the t e Ss• He would leave the details to some of ' 414 Priends, who, he hoped, would take a part in the d iscussion. Th e f acts which he had stated he.had collected w i t h muc h labour, and the House Might depend on their accuracV. But he implored subjethe House to consider well the importance of the ct. —t o conside r t h e good which would result ' l 9t only, to this country, but also to those countries Lthe welfare of which they were so much inte e,ed--to look to the great benefits which would "Ise' from carrying on an unrestricted trade with r o o nntries which, altoether 0,000,0004 of inhabita g , contained near l y look iits. H e i mp l ore d t h em to to suc h the ad vantage of extending improvement to a vast number of persons, and introducing I.lrnongst them, if not English laws, at least English 3.ll:s.tice and English feeong. He implored them to r_?flect upon the s .tisose who ditty which devolved upon w ere. to legislate for such numbers. It duty to look to the interests of both -tries, and, if they made the investigation which 'le required, he had no doubt but they would come to the conclusion that the greatest benefits would Sarise from totally removing all restrictions upon the nmeree of the two countries. The Honourable Member concluded by moving that a Select Com raittee adiring into the state of trade between Great Britain India, and between Great Britain and China. 7:1 The CH ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER not able and rise t o f ollow the Hon. Member into the elaborat e detail into which h had one on 41111iPPortant subject, but to express e a hop e, that tinder all the circumstances of the case, and even aocording to hi s own view of it, he would not press ti anointment of the committee at present. The 11on. -Gent• had most justly stated, that the ques -3° was one o f t h e h ighest importance, as being a ra 4 n of that w hi c h must come before the House before l ong, inv o l v i ng, as i t did, the interests of Illiona over whom our power had extended in ndia. But in proportion as the Hon. Gent. him. 'el` admitted this importance, so must he also ad it it, that any,investigation with respect to it should the Most cOmplet e an d i mpartial. He would put tl't. tothllon. Member whether, in the present pe td of We-session, they could advance a single step vi r ,.hieh; wou id be satisfactory, When lie advised the iMriOttse-ii4tO appoint'the committee which the Hon. gmber foi Bridgeniiith recommended, lie begged Understood, that he did not give that advice 4:?lll.l:alre'eling that it was not necessary that inquiry "g l d-lie - d • all er. t h ein the objects which the motion t 4,"°4o.urable Member embraced. On the con- L a . r Y) He admitted that not only all the objects which L '- 11411 . Member had embraced in his elaborate Istatertienti but als o man y o th ers w hi c h h e h a d om i tte d I. t 6 . _, 1 !‘ it) Were deserving of minute and general iniquity. that hi! opinion, that as a necessary prelimi nar y to Inquiry, it was requisite for the H ouse to h ave hefOie it a certain quantity of documentary evidence. Was-necessary, for the inform at i on o f those en "en who Might be appointed members of such a eeatoiittee, that some principles by which their in quiries might be governed should be laid before in order that they might make themselves ih e .,„._' °u slY • Masters of the s u bj ect , an d so con d uct os intent f!!-olled investigatio n w i t h e ff ect . I t was the ioli of his Right H on . F r i en d, t h e P res id ent of !itle Board of Trad e , h a d h e not b een prevented by t disposnion from attending in his place that even to have moved and lie believed that he might Itt:ete;that-it still was his Right Hon. Friend's inten era, irk the course of the present session, to move, .Ule production of that documentary evidence, which a to that ?Peered to be indispensable as a preliminary t Inc laitn which all of us concur in thinking o_ e necessary.' --(Hear, hear.)—Having that mass Papers before them, it was the view of the Go period' that inquiry should not commence at this t.e!riptrofth sess ion , when it could not be conducted 11.otti!iseetteet but that it should be presented session sent with edto the that w im'early p er i o d o f t h e next tVeirPgnt and w i t h t h at aut h or i ty w hi c h , w hil e it j t j u en dered it analogous to precedent, would make generalbegca • • satis.r action to the country. He trtr h t herefore li that no on. Member would notT . A., ll . at beca use h e oppose d t hi s motion, he was quityZ i l e .us - to give Parliament every facility to hi ke" - welt a subject so important demanded. The thi.4 Would therefore see that the question between ri ot Member f or B r idg enor th and himself was, li .h.eif ie ue . t .her inquiry should t a k e pl ace or no , b u t Cher inquiry should be conducted b y a com .!tphObe appointed now, or by a committee to be at the commencement of next session, ey144.7.-production of a quantity of documentary . _ kWee tith ' io the course of the present session. Be ,_lvhiehtiNtwo courses, lie could not hesitate as . to t t e- Avl i i7 s Ought to follow. There was another porn ,„•en he wished to call the attention of, the ,When we look to the course of proceedin g Uhje . 1 1 the Ho use in p rev iou s i ns t ances on this 4 etiti c- - A We found that there was no occasion for ~'idg With thehaste which the Hon. Member for kew,„,,gehorth proposed. When the charter was re t!heTialll,l79l, the inqUiryinto ,.. the propriety . of the th e tiLuid not commence till 1193. Again, when .d ha t' e - mer was renewed in 1814, the inquiry di Oin k . ene e till 1813. telkt,hhight 'Hon. Gent., (we believe Mr. Husxfs te,at th ey We did not see the speaker) here observed, e aant er -e re was an inquiry as' to the renewal of the 'th,,, se ~, e arly as. 1808. WSsith.- N • t tANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER me ritYs inclined to defer to the superior c0m „41,4. kn owledge of his Right . Hon. Friend, but esent. occasion he believed that he (the 1/r eha t , e ,: l er of the Exchequer) was right. Heap iNaity.ed.that in 1808 - there was a great deal of e t tias eo F le ..that Ho use as to the finances of India, in of the embarrassments of h °lllriany, which led to the appointmentte East of a trlat itt ee t O. examine their accounts. He believed 4 e tli nt I nquiry in to t h e sta t e o f th e t ra d e o f Lydia, air a the question, whether there should be a re , of the charter •or not, , oclwas commenced and - I ' Ls t Y lkd e e r d - i n the year:before the expiration of the !hat,: • But w h et h er t h at inquiry_ little too matter took lace in ' to. t h':ar or i n t h e year before, was of question. We are now'. in 1829 de- I htlk. ll g on the question of the Government of t oti rlti . v 'd yet till 1834 the Government of that Ost•ig.r,,Tmat remai n on i ts p resen t footing. The Parliament would have to decide tisliT c ,me-tile propriety of giving notice to the East lea r "MP,Za k ty, ,-,That notice must be given three s 411,11. before Ahg.eirlition of the chayter; and a eukteidid no t eipire 1824, tliat notice need not be given till 1831. He thought that an inquiry commenced in the he a innieg of the session 1830 would be adequari• e the I louse all the inform ation that would be ti,•ressary to enable it to decide on preliminary points, whether in 1831 notice should be given to the East India Company that the term of their charter and their exclusive trade should cease and determine within the next three years; always recollecting, that when that question was disposed of, there remained three years for the country and for Parliament to decide upon the course which the House ought to follow. These were the principal grounds on which he intended to move the previous question on the motion of the Hon. Member for Bridgenorth. He begged that it might also be distinctly understood, that he pledged himself at present to no opinion upon this important question. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the previous question. Mr. HITSKISSON agreed with his Right Hen, Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that this was a question not only of the highest importance to the commerce and manufactures of this country, but also a question involving interests far higher than those of mere commerce and manufactures. It was a question of difficulty in many considerations, also, under the notice which the law had rendered it necessary to give to the East India Company. It was a question also on which the decision of Parlia ment would involve the happiness, the tranquillity, the moral and the physical situation of the millions of subjects who in that country look up to us for protection and support. He felt thankful to his ' Right Hon. Friend for the assurance which he had given to the House, that this inquiry should begone into fully, fairly, and deliberately, at an early period of the next session. He also felt thankful that there would emanate from that quarter, from which it was always fitting that such information should emanate, a valuable mass of documentary information to guide their inquiries. At the same time he must say, that notwithstanding the speech of his Right Hon. Friend, he could not see that there was any reason which should prevent its from entering into inquiry at the present moment. If we were to appoint a Committee now, these advantages would arise from it—first of all, the members of the Committee would be forced to know how serious, extensive, and important was the duty imposed upon them. They would have all the advantage of the recess to direct their studies, so as to enable them, if the Committee were renewed in the next session, to discharge in a more efficient manner the duty devolved upon them by the orders of this House. It had been stated, that among the other questions which that duty would call upon them to decide, were questions con nected with the happiness of India, and with the se curity of our possessions in that quarter of the g l o b e —questions of settlement, questions of commercial policy, questions of civil policy, in all the dif ferent views in which the administration of a great empire 'could be considered. Considera tions like these imperatively called upon Par liament to look into this subject; and therefore, if they were to begin their inquiry into it at this early period, even admitting that they were not bound to come to a decision before the close of four years, they would not be able to conclude it if they conducted it properly, in the course of the next ses sion. It was an inquiry more complicated, more various, and more extensive, than any into which the House had ever yet embarked. He was sure that there would be no dissatisfaction in the country if the Committee were now to sit for a month—if it were then to report that it had commenced its in quiries, that it had sent queries on important points out to the East, and that it had called for a mass of documentary evidence, which could only be procured from a distance, and if it were then to recommend to the House to consent to its being revived in the next Session of Parliament. Whilst he stated that he appointment of a Committee this Session would be productive of such advantages, and not only of such advantages, but of this further advantage, that it would be an intimation to all parties who feel an interest in this question, as it affected both the com mercial prosperity of this country and the well-being of India, that Parliament had determined to direet its attention to it, and a formal invitation to them, if they had any information to give, to come forward and give it, he was not inclined to overvalue the im portance of beginni ng i nqu i ry e i t h er in the present or in the ensuing Session of Parliament. He should be satisfied, if, upon an inquiry of such importance, the subject should be brought forward by those who were responsible for the administration of Eng land and of India—he meant by Members of the Government—under the direction of the Minis ters of the Crown, and in conformity with the course which they recommended as the most efficient. For his own part he would own, that so far as his own inquiries and reflections had gone, he could not see the possibility of reconciling, to the degree which he could wish, the commercial interests of England with the a d m i n i s t rat i on of the political affairs of India by a company of merchants who were engaged in the commerce of the country, over which they exercised sovereign rule. He thought that the principles of commerce, as they affected private individuals, must be interfered with and de stroyed, if private individuals were obliged to com pete with rivals, enjoying the power of sovereignty, and possessing 25,000,0001. of revenue from t h eir commercial and territorial acquisitions. How they were to relieve themselves from this difficulty he could not tell; all that he could say at present was this, that it did appear to him, that the more they separated the commerce of India from its sove reignty, the better would it be for the interests of all parties engaged in commerce with India—the better would it be for the advancement of civiliza tion in India—the better would it lie for the great interests of the people of India, and the better would it be for the interests of the people of England, the consumers of the pro duce which India supplied, and the producers of the articles in which that produce was to be paid for. For if the East India Company were carrying on their commerce to the injury of individuals, as it had been confidently stated that they were, that in jury must ultimately fall upon the people of Eng. land. Therefore it was that he wished to give to commerce a greater expansion than it had at pre sent, and to rescue it from competing with that monstrous anomaly of commercial enterprise and sovereign power united in the same corporation.— He was particularly desirous that the inquiry should be commenced as early as possible. He wished it to be distinctly understood, that though he thought that there was great evil in the present state of things, he did not think that it arose either from the conduct of the East India Company or from that of the Directors, to whom he owed, and for whom he felt, all possible respect, and who had exerted the greatest talent for the benefit of those whose inte rests they were selected to protect and to promote, but that it arose from the anomalous nature of the system itself. There was one point on which he must say that he could not agree with his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. His Right Hon. Friend said, that it was useless to enter upon any inquiry in this session, and insinuated that it would almost be as useless to enter upon inquiry in the next session. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER— No, no; I neither said nor insinuated any such thing.—(Hear.) Mr. HUSKISSON was well aware that his Right Hon. Friend had not said any such thing in direct words, but he had said this—that inquiry should take place next Session, but that there was no indispensable necessity that it should take place even then, as the Charter of the East India Com pany did not expire till 1834. His Right Hon. Fri - end had likewise stated, that on two former oc casions, when the renewal of the Company's Char ter had been under consideration, the inquiry had taken place only one year before its expiration. He thought that if on the present occasion the inquiry should be commenced at an early period, and should be prosecuted to a conclusion as soon as possible, it would satisfy the House, the country, and the Di rectors of the East India Company too, that it was for the interest of them all to make an alteration in the present Charter at a period previous to the legal termination of the present bargain. He was of opinion that if a Committee was appointed, the question of a more extended intercourse between this country and China might he settled at an earlier period than 1834. Let not gentlemen, when they look at that part of the question, deceive themselves. If you neglect to fol:ow in the track which is now open to yon,—it you leave foreigners to occupy for years a market into which you might, but are not allowed by law to enter,—if you let the industrious classes of Chinese deal with Ame rica for commodities, which they wo u ld a t pre sent as willingly take from you,—if you prohi bit too all commercial intercourse between China and Singapore, that glorious instance of the im mense advantages derivable from free trade—it may perhaps, be too late to alter your policy, when the charter of the East India Company has expired. In the years which must elapse between that time and the present, others will be engaged in that trade, which might now be yours; and therefore he said boldly to the House of Commons, " You ought to seize the advantages which present themselves to your grasp, even now, whilst you yet can." Look too at the New World. The troubles of the States of South America could not continue for ever. They must fall before long under a settled form of Government; and then their intercourse with the East must be considerable. Their situation on the coast of the Pacific was advantageous for intercourse with all the Archipelago of the Indies. At present they were without any commercial marine. The means of carryinz on the intercourse between South America and China would be seized by the mer chants of other States, if we failed to avail ourselves of it. The United States of America had already got part of the carrying trade between them ; and if we let three or four years pass without doing any thing, it may be productive of very great mischief to the position which England has to maintain in the East. He therefore contended that the question ought to be taken up at a 3 early a period as possible, and especially on those points which were only connected with a pact of the charter. It was mot a matter of indifference that the House should show to the merchants and manufacturers of England, who were now labouring under great depression, that this was a question to which it was alive, and that it was looking to a satisfactory arrangement of it, as soen as it could be made with due attention to vested rights and interests. He was satisfied that if in quiry were granted, we should be able, before the expiration of the present charter, with the assistance of the East India Company, to make some satisfac tory compromise, so that a new system of trade might start up in the place of the old one. That system was clearly defective. In 1793, when the renewal of the Company's exclusive privileges was tinder discussion, it was stipulated that 3,000 tons of the Company's shipping should be set aside for the merchants of Englund, and they were set aside accordingly. The condition on which this trade commenced was a payment en the outward-bound cargo of 5/. per ton, and on the import cargo 151. per ton; and yet this condition, severe as it now appeared, was deemed at the time to be a consi derable advance to a better system. On the re newal of the charter in 1813, we obtained an inde finite power of increasing our trade with India as far as it could be extended. Since that time it had been extended very considerably, and there fore it was not theoretical to assume, that if the House proceded in the course of relaxation, our trade with India would go on increasing the benefits which the country already derived from its con nexion with India, securing the tranquillity and prosperity of that continent, and promoting the welfare of all parties who were engaged in its com merce. He felt these considerations so strongly, that he did hope that the points which related to the political arrangements to be made hereafter respect ing India would not stand in the way of the com mercial intercourse, which with India was so inte resting to the merchants of England, and which was so likely to prove beneficial to the civilization of India. He would not, however, advise his Hon. Friend ,(the Member for Bridgenorth) to persist in his motion—he would rather advise him to with draw it, in consequence of the promise which had been given by his Right Hon. Friend. At the same time he must say, that he was not at all sorry that this discussion had taken place upon the proposition of his Hon. Friend. Mr. HUME said, that as the arguments of the Right Hon. Member for Liverpool proved, beyond all question, the necessity of going into an immediate inquiry, he (Mr. Hume) could notconceive how the Right Hon. Gentleman conld recommend his Hon. Friend to Nvithdiaw his motion. He thought that in the present stagnation of all our commercial rela tions, the House was bound to ascertain how far our manufactures could be admitted to share in all the benefits of the Indian markets. There was strong reason to fear that the delaying this question for a single year would be injurious to our interests. The only reason he had heard from the Right Hon. Gent. for a postponement was, that formerly an inquiry was not constituted till within one year of the ex piration of the Company's charter. This he denied —an inquiry was commenced five years previous to its expiration. Sir J. Anstruther was chairman of a committee that sat for the purpose. Ile repeated, we ought to have this inquiry now—the sooner the better. Gentlemen were aware, that by putting a question, and stating a case in a particular manner to a lawyer, you might get almost any answer you pleased from him ; and you might appoint a com mittee of this House in such a way, and put a case to it so as to elicit any answer you wished. He hoped the Committee to be appointed upon this question would not be in the least biassed in favour of any of the great parties interested in its decision. The Hon. Gent. proceeded to allude to the Ame rican tariff, the object of which was to take the carrying trade from the British ship-owners and give it to the American—the United States were right to endeavour to effect this if they could; but we were equally justified in adopting hostile measures to meet them—this we could effect. There were two important articles of export from the United States, cotton and tobacco—the most valuable of American products. The amount of shipping em ployed in bringing these two articles to England was very great, and if we could bring them both from India, the effect would be to cause an increase of 200,000 tons in British shipping, and keep them in perpetual employment. India was competent to supply all the articles which America could supply, and in sufficient quantity for our consuinptien. We know that this very article (cotton) was originally produced in India, though it had been afterwards transplanted to the new world, where it was now cultivated to a much greater extent than in the coun try of its parentage. He did not wish to throw out any reflection on the East India Company. Cotton was not the produce of the Company's territories previous to 1803, it was all imported from the Mah ratta States. How did the case stand ? Of the 197,000,000 lbs. of cotton imported into this coun try, 151,000,000 lbs. came from the United States; of the remainder, 1 7,000,000 lbs. came from Brazil. Egypt, which till lately did not produce a single bale, now afforded half the quantity brought from India. It furnished 7 ,000,000 lbs., an extent of trade entirely created within seven years. From the West Indies we imported 9,000,000 lbs., as there the soil so limited the quantity. India only produced 12,000,000 lbs. of the whole 197,000,000 lbs. imported. He contended that with the facilities which might be afforded to India, and with advan tage to the East India Company itself, a great quan tity of the cotton required by this country might be produced there. By whatever hands this produce should be raised, it would add to the resources of the East India Company.- 18,000 tons of shipping were employed in bringing cotton from the United States in 1827 ; a great portion of the supply must be derived from India, and a proportionate addition made to our carrying trade by that means. He did not wish this to be done by means of protecting duties, which were ge nerally the cause of loss and injury. In the first in stance, however, perhaps they might be resorted to with advantage, in order to encourage individuals to make the necessary exertions. He admitted that this subject (the importation of cotton from India) in itself afforded a sufficient reason for inquiry. Then how did we stand with regard to tobacco ? Of the 33,000,00011). weight of that article which we imported into :his country, 32,000,00011). came from the United States, and the trade employed (so the lion. Member said) upwards, he believed, of 100,000 tons of shipping—at least it gave em ployment to a large amount of shipping. Now Ma sulipatam had produced tobacco so superior in qua lity, that it was brought to England as a great rarity and luxury. There was no reamon why tobacco might not be grown in India, if not to the extent of the quantity now imported from the United States, at least to a very considerable amount. Viewing America in the hostile attitude, with re spect to our trade, in which her commercial regula tions placed her, we should look round us, and en deavour to obtain a supply of her staple commodities (cotton and tobacco) elsewhere. We were now obliged to take these articles from her, and she was aware the necessity that compelled us to do it would continue, except we looked to our East India posses. sions for a supply. It was true, as had been said, we had only to wait till the states of South America were placed in a settled condition, when the commercial intercourse that would grow up between them and us must be very considerable. We might then look to them for tobacco, but meanwhile we should try to produce it in India. The East Indies had not received sufficient attention at our hands. They had been too long viewed in the light of a rival colony to other states, and were accordingly kept down. The result of the inquiry, if it took place immediately, would be, that we should be enabled to prove, within the space of a single.week, that the amount of British exports to India need only to be limited by the imports which we could draw thence ; or, in other words, by the means which the country possessed of paying for our commodities. This was far from being the case at present. It might ap pear strange and paradoxical to say to, but he pledged himself to show, that if the East India Company had not the monopoly of tea, merchants could be found ready to land tea in England and sell it at the cost price for which it was bought in China. The fact was, in Canton hundreds of thousands of pounds were due to English merchants which could not be paid in specie, which the monopoly of the East India Company did not allow to be paid in commodities, and for which therefore they had to take payment in bills on Calcutta, by which they incurred a loss of 20 or 30 per cent., owing to the state of the exchanges. Merchants, therefore, would be glad to take tea and other articles in payment, and bring them to England arid sell them without charging any thing for freight. If he could prove that fact, and he pledged himself to do so, he thought it sufficient to justify him in calling for an immediate inquiry. If these facts could be proved, they afforded one of the strongest cases why the fetters and restrictions should be removed from British mer chants. Suppose an English ship to go out with a cargo under these circumstances, it was unable to bring home a freight on account of these absurd re gulations ; but it might go to Hamburgh or other such ports. This ought not to be tolerated, par ticularly when it was considered that an American ship was under no such restrictions, and thus we lost the profit which the Americans gained. He had heard of the case of an English ship on the north west coast of America, which, being unable to pro cure a cargo to England, was offered one to China, on which a profit of 2,0001. or 3,0001. might have been realized, but the captain was prevented from accepting the offer by the regulations of the East India Company. In that instance the trip, if so made, would not have taken a farthing out of the Company's pocket. He did not wish to touch vested right, but if it could be proved that without interfering much with the interests of the East India Company, but merely by a slight modification of its privileges, a great benefit would be conferred on the country, he was sure the liberality of that body would induce them to consent to it. Great ad vantages would be derived from the course proposed to be taken—advantages which would develop themselves in the space of a single month ; and, if so, he felt satisfied the Court of Directors would throw no obstacles in the way. Persons would say "let us inquire next year." Why not begin the in quiry now, and then we might be certain of obtaining relief, if not in this, at farthest in the next session. A Right Hon. Gent., now no more (Mr. Canning), formerly said, that a general inquiry should be insti tuted into our financial affairs, which must he probed to the bottom. What had all this evaporated in ? The pressure of the day induced Government to set on foot an inquiry ; but that once at an end, the Finance Committee was thrown overboard. In the present case, he wished they would begin the in quiry on Monday morning; if they did, he promised' to produce evidence that would employ them for the next month--(Laughter)—and what more could they want ?—(Continued laughter.) —Was it treating the commercial body in this country right to postpone an inquiry so important to them for a year? Who knows whether the present Ministers will be in their places next year ?--( Laughter.)-- He had been told by one gentleman in the Ministry, when referring to a promise made by his predecessor in office, " Oh, we are not bound by that." The same thing might be said next year, by a new set of Ministers, with respect to the Right Hon. Gent.'s pledge of to-night. He did not know why we should consider the present Ministry as permanent any more than another. He hoped a division would be called for, because he was anxious to see how many persons in the House agreed with him.— He knew he was accused of advocating strange opinions—(A laugh) --and perhaps he sometimes did; but he liked to see how many concurred in these notions. — (Laughter.) —Gentlemen might be amused at this, but he had lived long enough to see measures which had been re jected by miserable minorities —miserable as re garded numbers, but respectable as regarded prin ciple—carried by the very Ministers who previously had successfully opposed them. He liked this wel ..„.. enough, but, if possible, he liked still better to carry things against Ministers--(laughter)--because when he could do that, he was sure the people were with.him. He did not say this in opposition to the Government.--(Considerable laughter.)--Not at all ; he was ready to make great allowances for the Gentlemen belonging to it, whose difficulties were considerable. They did not know who were their friends or foes just at present. He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would yet consider the propriety of the course he professed that he was determined to follow in this instance. As for himself, he felt it imperative on him, as a friend to freedom of trade and the commercial interest, to support the motion for the Committee. Mr. VESEY FITZGERALD did not rise to prolong the debate unnecessarily, nor did he wish to travel through the multifarious materials which had been alluded to in the speech of the Hon. Member who last addressed the House, in a speech which seemed to have been dictated by a spirit of indif ferent hostility to not Government only, but every class of person s interested in this question, either in or out of the House.—(Hear.) —ln a spirit of modesty peculiar to that Hon. Member, he appeared to have inculpated successively all parties who ap peared to have taken an interest in the subject:— The most extraordinary part of that Hon. Mem ber's speech was, that he had, although be calcu lated on being in the minority of six or seven to night, prompted his Hon. Friend the Mover to press the motion this evening to a division, because he hoped, ere the end of his parliamentary career, he should find himself in a majority on the question of Indian affairs. He was glad to have the suffrage of his Right Hon. Friend, the Member for Liver pool, on this occasion, in support of the sentiments delivered on the question to-night by his Right Hon. Friend near him. The inference or conclusion which the Hon. Member for Montrose had drawn this evening from what had fallen from the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was not to be acquiesced it► or endured_ No such assuranep— no such pledge as that attempted to be extracted from his Right Hon. Friend's speech by the Hon. Member, could be implied with any thing like fair ness or propriety from the terms of that speech. No liberal-miode,l man would have put that inter prcaiion on the speech of his Right Hon. Friend. (" !Tear," from Mr. Home.) Nor can I imagine that the House will think his cheer will strengthen his case. An allusion had been made to reports got up or fashioned on the views of persons connected with the East India Company, or his Majesty's Go vernment, but was almost lost sight of, that there was a possibility of a report being drawn tip on a different principle, and to suit the views of the enemies of the East India Company, and the con stant opponents of his Majesty's Government. His Right Hon. Friend had been totally misrepresented in assuming that he would proceed in this instance upon documentary evidence. He had never made any such assertion, but it was just to suppose, that prior to coming to a decision on so very important a subject, his Majesty would direct that Parliament should be provided with documentary evidence for its formation. Mr. ROBINSON felt satisfied with the pledge just given by the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer. For him it was sufficiently ample. Mr. C. W. WYNN thought it would be more advisable that the appointment of this committee should emanate from, and be sanctioned by, Go vernment. It ought not certainly to be taken up as a party question or a party measure. He had seen long since reason to believe, in common with an illustrious statesman, whose loss the public and that House must every day see fresh reason to deplore, that it was to be regretted the monopoly bad been granted to the East India Company for so long a period, whereby the trade must necessarily be closed for years to British capital and enterprise. Mr. A. BARING must confess he saw reason to differ with those who would postpone the inquiry to 1830 as-to a fitter period. However, as they were within three or four weeks of a prorogation of Par liament, it would be better to postpone the appoint ment of the Committee to the beginning of a session. A great object certainly was to inquire primarily what part of former reports on East India affairs should be reprinted and submitted to the newly ap pointed committee, and what evidence ought to be adduced of a novel description. The committee ought not to be bound to give its opinion, perhaps, nor was it prudent to consent to receive the docu mentary evidence from the channels of administra tion at home. Yet it must be observed, from the cautious silence of the Hon. East India Chairman, that he felt little disposed to throw himself into the arms of his Majesty's Ministers.—(Hear, hear.) The great queStion to be decided was, what is the actual financial condition of the company. The monopoly of the China trade was not the only ques tion for the consideration of the Legislature. In whom the sovereignty of that country should be Nested,—what was its state, its general condition, its debts, its assets,i ts financial condition--were subjects which must be examined ere the Legislature could form any decision on the propriety of removing the power out of the hands in which it had so long been reposed. The principle of colonization, or, in other words, the right of British subjects to a free inter , course with those colonies, was the main question with which the House would have to deal. Although when the present charter had been discussed he had voted for it, he felt that danger was to be appre hended from the too extensive privileges given to the East India Company as a body of merchants. The risk, however, he dreaded had not been incurred. He trusted next session the subject would be com mitted to the closest examination. For this reason he would suggest there should be three different committees sitting simultaneously on different branches of the inquiry. Considering the im portance of the question, it might he desirable Parliament should meet next session more early than usual. There was an additional reason for this, because, as this Charter expired in 1834, and that of the Bank of England in 1833, it would be de sirable to adjust the materials for deciding on one great question ere it proceeded upon another of very prominent interest also. Nor could the attendance of Members to perform the duties on both classes of Committiees be safely reckoned upon. He thought there was a danger lest there should go abroad an exaggerated impression of the advantages likely to result from opening this hitherto monopolized trade. The terms in which it was generally introduced were sufficiently flattering. The population con sisting of 200,000,000 or 300,000,000—the advan tages of a reciprocal commerce with so large a coun try so fertile, so populous—were topics calculated to excite hopes of too sanguine a cast to be realized from what was known of India as yet. All would be disposed to make a venture, and thrust their hands into these golden mines. Had these relaxations of the monopoly proved so very advantageous to those foreign countries who now participated in the ad vantages of the trade to India ? lie (Mr. Baring) felt confident that when the question should be investigated by a Committee, they would do justice to the liberality of the East India Company, and to the disinterested and enlightened conduct of their governments in India.—(Hear.)—The system might be criticised as to parts, but as a whole, the administration of India would bear a comparison with that of any government.—(Hear.) Sir C. FORBES spoke at some length, but we regret that the Hon. Baronet's speech was seldom heard distinctly. The Hon. Baronet expressed his satisfaction at hearing of the intention of his Ma jesty's Ministers to take up this vast question. Ob jectionable and faulty as the Company's government might be, and as all governments were—(A laugh) —he considered it to be preferable to that of our other Colonial Governments, and he congratulated the natives of India in being placed under the go vernment of the country instead of the Crown.— (Hear.)—He recommended that some of our young senators should take a trip to India, to judge of the state of things there; he was happy to hear that it was the intention of an Hon. Baronet to do so —(Name, name)—his labour would be well bestow ed. With regard to the China trade, it was his opinion that the expectations formed of the ad vantages to be derived from opening that branch of the trade would be disappointed. With respect to the private trade with India, it was only in its in- Lucy ; how was it to be increased ? Not by the East India Company, but by that House.—(Hear.) Let his Majesty's Government begin by reducing the duties upon the commodities of India. A small duty was enforced upon English manufactures, but a heavy duty upon Indian commodities. Was that reciprocity? Was that free trade ? We took away the raw cotton from the Indies, and sent them our cotton goods, which superseded their manufactures. He hoped that the inquiry proposed would embrace not our own interests merely, but those of the people of India. Mr. ASTELL, on the part of the East India Company, courted inquiry, which, he was convinced, would obviate the ignorance which pervaded the country in respect to India, and the prejudices which existed against the company. The exaggerated statements which had been made upon this subject led people to believe that a further opening of the trade would extend our commercial advantages; that our manufacturers would be able to send out 300,000,0001. worth of goods, if the trade with India and Chi na was opened. This was a delusion. But the East India Company had no trade with India, though they were obliged to import some goods towards the payment of their heavy charges. With regard to the giving additional facilities to the residence of Europeans in India, the natives of that country would not be induced to keep company with Europeans; and he would refer the House to the work of Bishop of Heber as to the question of the policy of admitting Europeans into India. For all practical purposes the trade with India was opened to England; European articles might be bought there as cheaply as in London. He was glad to find that the whole subject, not a part of it, was to un dergo investigation ; and h e was conv i nce d. that the • P • l• AP • . . to be so defective as the advocates of free trade asserted. Mr. WARBURTON observed,—with reference to the recommendation of the Hon. Member for Malmesbury (Sir C. Forbes), that young senators would qualify themselves for this question by visit ing India,—that this plan, under the present sys tem, was not so easy as he seemed to think, A dis tinguished foreigner, Baron Humboldt, being desir ous of prosecuting his researches in natural history in Nepaul, had applied for permission to go to India and was refused.—(Cries of " No, no.")—Another individual, a distinguished merchant, had applied for permission to send an agent to India to superin tend the manufacture of silk, and his request was refused. He, however, sent him in defiance of the refusal, and the East India Company had the cow ardice not to send him back, for fear of the exposure of their nefarious proceedings.—(A laugh, and cries of " No, no.")—One thing was important : if Europeans were permitted to go to India, they should be placed under vigilant observation, in order that the natives might be secure against injury. There was also another part of the present system which was highly obectionable,—he meant the Board of Controul. With respect to the Board of Controul, he did not doubt but that those persons who composed it had the interests of our Indian possessions sincerely at heart. But how was it pas sible that they could do any good when they held office only by the tenure of a day ? This subject required the attention of the House quite as much as the opening of the trade. Lord ASHLEY observed, with respect to the allusion which had been made to the case of Baron Humboldt, that he had never heard of the circum stance before; and he put it to the Hon. Member for Bridport to say, whether it was likely that such conduct would be pursued towards that distin guished individual, when it was well known that persons engaged in such pursuits had constantly re ceived encouragement and assistance from the Com pany.—(Hear, hear.)—As to the situation which he and his colleagues filled, they would perhaps be anxious to make it permanent if they could.— (A laugh.)—But they had, on the Hon. Member's own showing, this consolation—that, by remaining in this office one or two years, they did a great deal of good, which was much better than to continue in office for five-and-twenty years, and yet do no good at Hear.) Mr. BROUGHAM did not think himself au thorised to address the House at that late hour, to expound an opinion which was formed, lie believed, out of the House, and in the House, that the result must be—though to what degree he would not take upon himself to say, but the result must he—that art arrangement must be made to open the commerce of India at the expiration of the Company's Charier, The present arrangement must be altered, and one: material step taken towards a relaxation of the East India Company's monopoly. Flom %da he had observed of the remarks made by the different speakers who had spoken in the early part of the debate, they seemed to differ only in degree, and admit generally, that the monopoly must be re vised, they seemed to differ in the direction of the relaxation, but all the arguments used con firmed the opinion that the great question must be considered in which so many other questions were involved. The question of the trade could not be considered alone.—(Hear, hear.)—The distinct subjects mentioned by the Hon. Member for Callington must, at the same time, come under the consideration of Parliament—the commercial branch, the political branch, and that which, in his opinion, was the most important, the connection between the two questions of the political Govern- ment of India and the trade with India. If the commercial question stood alone it would be easily decided, and to open the trade would be the resolu tion. The next question—what was to be done with the Government of India ?—was of more im portance and much more difficult ; but of the three questions, that which was most difficult, and at the same time mostpractical, was the connection between the other two. He should have no fear of the con sequences from altering the trade consistently with any arrangement, except in regard to the political relations; but that the consequences of the question, in a political point of view, were most important, could not be denied. The East India Com pany was a great political body, a body which possessed dominion and rule over many millions of people, which was one of the largest Military Powers of the world, and, with two or three exceptions, the largest Maritime Power; and was, moreover, entrusted with the government. of 70 millions of men on the other side of the globe. That the interests of these millions should enter into the consideration, and that their welfare should be consulted on any measures for the relaxation of the Company's monopoly, could not be denied ; and that they were not only bound to consider the inte rest of this portion of our subjects, but also the rights and interest of the people here. lii abolish ing the monopoly, and in what way the alteration was to be effected so as to most promote the inte rests of both parties, was one of the most important and most difficult parts of the inquiry. He would not affect to say that the information the❑ before the House, uncontradicted as it was—for though the Hon. Member for Bridgenorth had been charged with exaggeration, in a speech equally distinguished for accuracy of detail, and soundness of principle, and clearness of enunciation—yet he had heard nothing to prove that charge; he would not, therefore, affect to say that he valued very highly any further documentary evidence which could be brought forward, or that he should Hot be pre pared to pronounce at once for a great relaxation, if not for a total and entire abolition of the Company's monopoly, if the mercantile and political questions stood apart and separate. They might safely throw open the trade, if the other question for the govern ment of the people were disposed of. He should have less difficulty if he saw—which, absurd as it might seem, they might yet live to see—the East India Company give up all its trade, while it still retained the Government of the country. Which ever way they looked at the subject, they would find inquiry necessary. He felt in all their force the reasons which made it desirable to withdraw the motion, but with the understanding, that the Go vernment was to take tip the subject at the earliest possible period next Session, and that it would then come forward with all the weight and authority of a recommendation of the Government; he thought it would be advisable in his Hon. Ft lend not to press his motion to a division.—(Question.) Mr. WHITMORE replied shortly. He ad verted to the increasing prosperity of the American trade with China to prove how much British mer chants would be bestefited by a full and general par ticipation in that branch of commerce. He argued on the absolute necessity of the House being placed in possession of the very best evidence on this sub ject, and concluded by expressing his hope that Mi nisters, who appeared to be liberally disposed, would grant an early and an effectual inquiry. The motion was then negatived without a division. STRAND IMPROVEMENTS. Lord LOWTHER rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Act of the 7th of George IV., and to enable the Commissioners of his Majesty's woods, forests, and land revenues, to bor row the sum of 300,000/. ; but the noise made by Members hurrying from the House after the pre vious discussion rendered it almost impossible to hear a single word the Noble Lord uttered. We understood him to say that the estimates sent in as to the probable expences of carrying into effect the contemplated improvements in Westminster fell considerably short of the actual expence, while the Crown leases, on the other hand, had not been so productive as was expected. Under these circum stances it was found necessary to make this applica tion to Parliament; and unless the money were pro vided, the work, which was now in progress, must stand still. His Lordship concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Act of the 7th of George IV., for carrying into effect certain im provements at Charing-cross, &c.