The Sun. — London, England, 1858-07-07 00:00:00

MPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.—(YESTERDAY.) The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seal on the woolcack at five o'clock. THE JEW BILL. The Duke of MARLBOROUGH gave notice that when this bill was in committee he should move the in sertion of a clause prohibiting persons of the Jewish persuasion from giving advice to the Crown with respect to Ecclesiastical appointments. Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition complaining of the absurdity of the present railway system, and praying for amendment. The noble lord also presented petitions from Manchester, Edinburgh, and other places, praying for an amendment of the law with respect to the rights of warned women. The Bishop of OXFORD presented petitions from Fenny Stratford, and other places, against the abolition of church rates. ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION BILL. The Earl of HA.RDWICKE brought up the report of amendments on this bill, and explained to their lordships the nature of the several additions that had been made to the measure, relating to the sale, purchase, transfer of ecclesiastical estates, in committee. The noble earl concluded by moving that the report be received. Lord RAVENSWORTH moved the insertion of the following amendment :—" That no appointment or ex change of ecclesiastical patronage under the provision contained in the Act of the 6th and 7th years of King Wm. IV., chapter 77, section Ist, shall be carried into eff,et without the consent in writing of the bishop of the diocese within which such ecclesiastical patronage so proposed to be appointed or exchanged snail be situate." The noble lord stated at some length his objections to various parts of the bill, but he complained tuore espe cially of the obstruction, he might almost say the spolia tion, of 24 livings, involving revenue to the amount of 16,0001. from the diocese of Durham, to improve the almost unenclowed sees of Ripon and Manchester. Such a proceeding, he contended,was contrary to consti tutional as well as ecclesiastical rights. The Earl of CHICHESTER said that the ecclesiasti cal commission acted not only in conformity with the provisions of the act of the 6 and 7 Win. IV., but with a view to what they believed to be for the benefit of the several dioceses, and the spiritual welfare of the people. The Bishop of DURHAM said that as he was per sonally concerned in this matter, he did not wish to say anything, but he might be permitted to remark, that it was extremely inconvenient to have a large portion of the livings of one diocese transferred to another. if it were possible to avoid that inconvenience it would be extremely desirable, bat as being personally concerned, be should prefer leaving it to some one of their lordships to devise means for ; Abet purpose than to suggest any himself. (Hear.) The Earl of DERBY observed that the law under which the ecclesiastical commissioners acted passed in 1836, and that act gave them power to recommend schemes for the distribution of patronage amongst the different dioceses, so as to make it as nearly as possible equal to the magnitude and importance of the dioceses. He believed that all the bishops who were concerned in the changes which had been effected were appointed since that date, so that there was no ground for the possibility of complaint on the part of any individual bishop. He was not arguing in favour of any plan. He only said that the ecclesiastical commissioners acted under what had been the law of thelsaid for 22 years, and that it became neces sary under that act to assign some amount of patronage to the new sees. His noble friend compared the import auce of , Durham with the dioceses of Ripon and Man chester. He agreed in the principle laid down by the right rev: prelate, that it was as far as possible desirable that the patronage of each see should consist of benefices within the see, and that they should not take away the patronage of one bish,:p to give it to anal het. But the case of these three sees of Durham, Ripon, and Man chester. was rather peculiar. He had a list placed in his hands that morning, which showed at all events that, if patronage was to be distributed with regard to the magnitude and importance of the dioceses, no great equality prevailed even after the distribution was made to the sees of Ripon and Manchester. The population in the bishopric of Durham was 701,000, in that of It!pon it was 1,033,000, in that of Manchester 1,400,000, or very nearly double the population of Durham. The beneficed in the see c f Durham amounted to 242 ; in Ripon, to 373: in Manchester, to 315. But with regt.rd to patron age, the position of the dioceses was very diff srent, for in Dwhain there were 70 livings wui tb 39,0001., where as in liipou there were only 47 livings worth 10,00 W , and in Manchester only 33 livings worth 9,000/. It the Ecclesiast.cal Cemmissiouers were to carry out the prin ciple of the act of 1836, they must subtract from the pa tronage of the one diocese to make up for the inadigo,te patronage as-i.gnvd to Manchester. It Lis noble fliond intended to introduce any provision of the kind irsoie.ted iu his proposition, he should move for a repeal of the provision of the act 6 and 7 Wm. IV., under which the Ecclesiastical Commissioners acted. The proposition of his noble frier d went so far as to say that the bishop should not be deprived of his patronage at all, tee it would require the consent of the bishop. This would render value'ess to a great extent the power of the c oL ruisaiontrs. ho were th•• Ecclesiastical Commissioners? Tney were the body of the bishops themselves. Ant it was by the coneeet t f the body of bishops themselves that the arrangement was made. If they referred a por tion of their busiuess to a committee of three laymen, that only indicated the confidence they placed in the judgrnentand discretion of these three laymen. He could not consent to the proposal of his noble friend, the effect of which would be to defeat the power of the commis sioners. The cialinissioners had only the power of train ing eehemes. They whet receive tbeeanction of an order in council. He believed that, practically, it would make no difference ; but if his noble friend arts satisfied with a proposition of this kind, thatnoaltera,ion should be made with regard to the d.stribution of the patronage of the bishop without a month's notice being given to the bishop, ise should assent. That would give the bishop an oppor tunity of laying any remonstrance on his ! art before the ecc!esiastical commissioner , , and also of bringing his case Wore the privy council and astiiegthern nut toart.e to the scheme of the commissioners. If his noble friend put this propositt.n in that share he thould be willing to introduce it into the bill, but he could not consent to give the bishop an absolute veto on the decision of the oonmiissioners. Earl GREY raid there was great inconvenience in transferring the patronage of one diocese to another, the bishop of which was living at a distance, and without that knowledge of the wants of the population which the bishop residing in the diocese must possess. If there fore his noble friend pressed his amendment he should support him. After a few words from the Earl of Powis and the Duke of MARLBOROUGH, Their lordships divided— For the amendment Against it Majority egaiust it The LORD ULIANCELLOR proposal alter clause 33 to insert new causes, lithe object of which was to give power to the trustees to raise money for the purpose of enfranchising or buying reversions. The clauses were agreed to. The Bishop of OXFORD then proposed clausss for the purpose of endowing the chancellorships of the diocese. 12 ,?.8 The E. 41 of DERBY thought the subject required more coLsideration ; for it was calculated that the sum required would be 5,000/. a year. It would be better to let the question be iaised in the House of Coolincus. After a short conversation, the right rev. prelate post poned the matter till the third reading. The report was then received. PORTENDIC AND ALBREDA. CONVENTION BILL. This bill was read a second time. _ CHURCHES, &c. (IRELAND) BILL. This bill was read a second time. PUBLIC GROUNDS AND PLAYGROUNDS BILL. This bill passed through committee. JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES' AMENDMENT' BILL. This bill passed through committee. MARRIAGES (MOSCOW, TAHITI, AND NINUPO) BILL. This bill passed through committee. COUNTY COURTS DISTRICT BILL. On the report of amendments, Lord BROUGHAM observed that the amounts sued for in the county courts during the past year had been no less than 700,0001., a large propnr‘ion, of which had been recovered. Of snits for sums bet .eeu 201. and 501., which might be tried either in the county courts cr in the superior courts, no fewer than 10 000 cases had hem disposed of in the former, and only 2,000 in the latter mode. Under these circumstances tie thought the salaries o 4 the judges ought to be equalised at the highest rate now received, namely, 1,5001. a year. The LORD CHANCELLOR s..iit that it would not be possible to eqwalise the salaries of the judges while the labour they had to do was so unequal. Some of those learned gentlemen were absolutely overworked ; but from a paper which had been furnished him by Lord Wensleydale he found there were some who did not sit on more than 45 days in the year. The object of the present bill was to render the distribution of the business more even ; and he recommended the noble lord to wait and see whether the work when so equalised would in eaeh cage be so considerable as to render it desirable to raise the salaries of some of the judges. The report was then received. CHINESE PASSENGER ACT (1855) AMENDMENT BILL. On the third reading, Lord BROUGHA.M. doubted wh4ber the bill went quite far enough, but there could be no question that it would effect a great improvement. From information be had received, partly from private sources and partly from public documents, he was enabled to say that the persona on board the Regina Cosli were not tree negroee, but were slaves who bad been released for the purpose of being embarked as free emigrants. They came, iu point of fact, from a well-known place called Monuah, the obief of which was one of the moat deter m i ne d s l ave sellers who ravaeed the neighbouring country. The Eail of DERBY regretted that the noble lord should not have made the statement he bad j us t d one, while his noble friend the Foreign Secretary eas iu the house, because his noble friend eater taincd quite a diffe rent opinion as to the persons on board the vessel in question. H e (Lord Derby) was not saying anything in favour of the French emigration system ; but he understood that his noble friend had last evening shown the noble lord a paper from which it appeared that the , persons on board th e R eg i na C c &i Lai been collected , . from Monrovia, in Liberia, and not from the district tcr which the noble lord had referred. Lord BROUGHA.NI—Th e paper treated the Regina. Cwli as a slaver. The bill was then read a third time and parsed, THE SUN, LO YD ON, WED:NE SWAY E V ENING, JULY 7, 1858, HAINAULT FOREST (ALLOTMENT OF COMMONS) 81. Thiq bill was read a third time and passed. DURHAM COUNTY PALTINE JURISDICTION BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. RAILWAYS ACP (IRELAND) CONTINUANCE BILL. This bill was read a second time. Their lordships rose tt five minutes before eight. HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o'clock. MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS BILL. On the motion for going into committee on this bill, Mr. T. DUNCOMBE asked the house to postpone the further consideration of the bill. It slipped through a second reading in consequence of the mistake of the hon. member for Edinburgh (Nlr. Black) in not moving at the proper time a specific motion for its rfjection. He moved the committal of the bill this day six inontbs. The bill was disliked generally throughout the country, though it was supported by the Colleges of Surgeons and Physicians. Mr. COWPER said the petitions that bad been presented in its favour showed that a large number of the medical profession approved of it. Mr. HEADLANI would support the motion for going into committee, but he thought it would be impossible to pass the biil this session, unless a spirit of conciliation . . was displayed. Mr. HADFIELD thought there was not much chance of the bill pissing this session. Mr. WALPOLE considered the house should go into committee on the bill. If the objections to the bill cou:d not then be got over, he would be prepared to suggest the best course to be pursued. After some remark.; from Lord ELcuo and Mr. BLACK, the house divided. The numbers were : For going into committee Against it Majority The house then went into committee. Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to. On clause 3, ~ -87 Mr. T. BUNCOMBE suggested that this, and the clauses up to 41, which established or provided for the expenses of the act, should be postponed till the com mittee had disposed of clause 41. It was right the house anti the country should know what would be the cost of this " quackery," for such the bill was. If the forms of the house precluded his postponing them in a lump, he should move the postponement clause by clause. He moved the postponement of clause 3. Mr. CO WPER said the clauses were so framed that no demand would be made on the public exchequer for its working. This was net a fair way to attack the bill, end he hoped the bon. gentleman would not press his motion and thereby impede the pi ogress of the bill. Mr. AY RTON asked his hon. friend not to press his motion. He had ascertained from many members of the medical profession that the profession generally were favourable to the measure. He believed the bill would be advantageous to the people. Mr. HATCHELL said the medical profession in Ire land were favourable to the passing of the measure. lie hoped the hon. gentleman would withdraw his motion. Mr. W. WILLIAMS said it was of the utmost im portance the committee should know the expense of working the bill, and if it was to be taken from the public purse. He had heard an enormous RUM men tioned as likely to be required over and above the fees to be taken under it. Every bill (with the exception of the Attorney-General for Ireland's last bill) for improv ing anything laid hold of the public taxes. He hoped the hon. member for Finsbury would press his motion. If the medical profession wanted a bill of this kind, let them pay for it, and not the public. Mr. BLACK considered there would be abundance of money to pay the expenses from the fees thar. would be received under the tell. Mr. HADFIELD complained that the bill excluded the professors of hydropatby and homoeopathy. Mr. T. BUNCOMBE said he should press his motion unless he had an answer to his question. Mr. WALPOLE said he agreed with the hon. member that the public money ought not to be charged with any of the expenses of this nieasure. As he read the bid the clauses would throw a charge on the exchequer, and he thought they ought to give the colleges power to im pose fees sufficient to pay the expenses. Tho whole frame-work of the bill proceeded on the assumption that the fess would be siuffi,nent to pay the expenses, and clause 41 prJposed to allow the Government to advance sufficient money until the fees were enough to pay the expenses. He thought it wouli have been Imter It the 41st clause had not been inserted, and when they cuue to tbat clause be should oppose it. Mr. T. DIJNCOMBE ached the hon. inesiber (Mr. Cowper) it he still persisted iu his intention to retain the 41st clans.? Mr. C3WPER, said he would omit the clause after what had been .aid by the Route Secretary. Tire amendment was th.n withdrawn aid the clause was agreed to. Clauses 4,5, G, 7,8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14 were agreed to. On clause 15, Mr. HEAD LAM mowed an amendment, that no prac titionerF,, but such as had pas , ed au exlmination at the Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons, and rec,ived a bcenca practise, should be permitted to register them selves under the bill. Mr. WALPOLE opposed the amendment. The committee divided. The numbers were— For the amendment 2l Againat it Maj nity 117 The clause was then agreed to. Clauses 16 to 25 were also agreed to. On clause 26. Mr. HEADLAis.iI moved an amendment to add a pro viso that no person should he erased from tue re.,;ri.ter for having adopted any particu'ar theory. The amendment was agreed to, and the clause as amended was ordered to stand pn-..; of the bill. Clauses 27 to 4tl were agreed to. Clause 41 was struck out of the bill. On clause 45, Mr. HADI"IE LD moved the insertion of the following proviso :—" Chat within 12 months after the granting of such charter to the College of Physicians of London, any fellow, member, or licenciats of the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh, or of the Queen's College of Physicians of Ireland, who may he in practice as a physician in any part of the United Kingdom called England, and who may be desirous of becoming a fellow or member of such College of Physicians of Eug land, shall be at liberty to do so , and be entitled to receive the diploma of the said college, and to be admitted to all the rights and privileges thereunto ap pertaining, on the payment of a registration fee of pounds to the said college, and. shall be froe from all stamp duty, in case the existing stamp duty shall have been already paid on the diploma held by such physician from the College of Phys:clins to which tie belongs." The proviso, eubject to the Chancellor of the Es.che goer's approva', was agreed to. The remaining clauses after some verbal amendments were agreed to. Mr. HEADLAM moved" the insertion of the f, Low ing clause in lieu of clause 16 :—After the passing of this act the medical registrars shall, under the authority cf the respective branch councils, require proof from every person who applies to be registered as a plipician, and who is not qualified to he registered as such under the provi sions cf section 15 of this act, that he has completed the age of 24 years, and that he has graduated in arts and medicine, or in medicine, after having passed the exami nationa for a degree in arts in some university of the United Kingdom, or in some foreign university approved by the general council, or that his case come within some special exception establi-bed by the general council, and that he has been examined by and has re ceived letters testimonial as a physician from one of the Royal Colleges of Physicians of England, Scotland, or Ireland, and has been enrolled as a member of that col lege. Mr WALPOLE opposed the clause, and it was nega tived without a division. Mr. B. HOPE moved the insertion of the following clause: - "It shall, notwithstanding anything here cm tained, be lawful for her Majasty, by charter, to grant to the Rlyal College of Surgeons of Eiglaud power to institute and ho:d examinations fur the pur pose of testing the fitness of persons to practise as dentists, who may be desirous of being so examined, avd to grant certificates of such fitness." The clause was agreed to. The house then resumed, and the bill was ordered to be reported to-morrow (Wednesday). COPYIIOLD ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. This bill passed through committee. CHELSEA BRIDGE AC TS AMENDMENT 7131 LL. The committee on this bill was postponed till Thurs- day next. Lord J. MANNERS said he intended to omit the 2d clau,e of the bill, and to alter the 31 so as to make lao foot toll cease when the capital of EG,OOO/., ogether with the interest at 4 per cent , should have be en paid. CLERIC OF PETTY SE ;SION'S BILL. Tice bouae went into committee on this b , ll, which occupied the remainder of tt:e sitting up to 4 G'cluck. The house resumed at 6 o'clock. CHURCH RITES. Mr. ALCOCK g venotice Thursday nest be would )isk leave to bring io a bill on the seuect of the volurita.-y contribution of church rates. BFIARITABLE BEQUESTS. Mr. LEFE:OY asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if the Goverani.ent intended to bring in a bill this session to amend the 011gritahle Bequests Act ? Mr. S. FITZGERALD said many representations bad been niaae to she Government on the subject, but it was quite oat of she question to introduce a bill this session with the hope. of ouryin., , i , it. M UN ICiP ELECTIONS, Mr. GILPIN sskea the Howe Secretary if was hint intention to extend the peovisions of the Corrupt Prac tices Prevention Act to mudeipsl elections ? Mr. WALPOLE said he sktould not bring in a bill on the subject this year, but he was strongly of opinion that the principle of the act ought to be extended to municipal elections. THE BOROUGH OF BELFAST. Mr. MACARTNEY inquh . ed of the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether any period had been fixed to com mence tho inquiry into the affairs of the borough of Belfast, and woo were the commissioners appointed to hold such inquiry ? Mr. S. FITZGERALD said no time bad been fixed, but he hoped the inquiry would commence as soon as the circuits were completed. The commissioners were Lir. Maj•ar and (as was uneerstood) Mr. Lockinger, both gentlemen of great eminence at the bar, and they would have the assistance of an actuary of eminence. WANT OF SURGEONS FOR THE TROOPS IN INDIA. Mr, S. HERBERT said wished to ask a question of the Government. It was stated in the accounts from India that many of our regiments were proceeding up country without any European medical practitioners with them. He understood there was the greatest diffi culty in g►etting medical students to offer for the army employment ; and this no doubt arose from no improve ment having been made in respect of pay and other things. If their position were improved, and they got a better status, the employment would attract a better class of students. He wished to ask whet'zer it was likely that before long any plan for accomplishing this object would receive the sanction cf the Government, and be promulgated Gen. PEEL said there certainly had been difficulty in procuring the number of surgeons required. A plan such as had been alluded to had bees considered, and for warded to the Treasury for approbation. SITTING OF PARLIAMENT DURING THE SUMMER MONTHS. lUr. FORSTER gave notice that he would on Friday call ;.be attention of the house to the inconvenience of protracting the session during the summer months. SERVICES OF THE TROOPS AT ALUMBAGH. Col. ,SYKES moved for a copy of a letter from Lord Canning', dated the 30th April, 1858, with its enclosed copy of a report from Lieut.-Gen. Sir J. Outram, describing the services rendered by the force under that officer's command during the occupation of Alumbagh. The return was ordered. THE SLAVE TRADE. Mr. HUTT asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he proposed to bring on the slave trade estimates ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that depended upon the India Bill. Assuming that the bill was read a third time on Thursday, he should propose to go into supply on Friday morning. IRISH EDUCATION. Mr. DEASY asked whether the vote as to Irish edu cation would be taken on Friday next The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that vote was is No. 4 paper, which the committee were now considering, and therefore he could not doubt that it would come on on Friday. The vote to which the hon. member for Gateshead (Mr. Hutt) had drawn his atten tion was in paper No. 5. THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA. (No. 3) BILL. On the motion that this bill, as amended, be considered, Mr. GREGSON moved that the consideration of the bill be postponed until Thursday. Lord STANLEY said he was in the hands of the house, and he understood that the house was in favour of pro.. needing. (Hear, hear.) There was nothing before the house but the original bill and some amendments that had been in print for several days. Sir H. RAWLINSON complained that, from the ar rangement of the bill, it was difficult to find the amend- meets. The motion was negatived. Lord STANLEY moved, in the stead of clause 31, to insert a clause repealing certain clauses of the 16 and 17 Vic., cap. 95, so far as the same apply to the admission or appointment of persons to the civil service of the East India Company. Sir J. GRAHAM said he was very unwilling to ob struct any arrangement of the noble lord the President of the Board of Control. He had, in his humble opinion, with so much candour and wisdom, amended this bill, that he was very unwilling to suggest any doubt as to the alteration he now proposed, but still he thought that the amenment he now proposed would not be an im provement. It was proposed to leave out clause 31 and to insert other clauses to the effect that the minister, in making appointments to the civil service, should, in stead of asking the advice of the Council, ask the advice of the Civil Service Commissioners. He thought that the advice of the Council as to the appointment of civil servants was the best advice he could have. (Hear.) It was, now left open to the minister to consult the commis sioners before bringing the matter before the Council ; but by the proposed clause there would be an ouster of the Council and a substitution of the Commissioner?. The hon. member for Des onport (Sir E. Perry) had said on a former evening that he (Sir J. Graham) was the organ of the East India Coini . .a.ay. He knew not what he had said or done to justify that observation. Ho bad never hesitated to express his opinion that the Court of Directors had served the country in an eminent degree, and that they deserved the gratitude of the British pub lic. He believed that they had been mainly concerned in conquering our empire in the East. He begged to inform the hon. member that he had not been in re ceipt of the wages of the East India Company, nor had he at present any such ii.tention. (Hear, hear.) as repeated that he thought the proposed amendment would not be an improvement. Sir E. PERRY sapposed it would be considered tkat the right hoc. baronet made a very pointed and severe attack on him when he alluded to not having receivedthe wages of the East India Company. lie begged to observe that the right hon. baronet was entirely wrong in his facts. He was not in the service of the East India Cona po.oy. nor a pensioner of the Company. Sir J. ATI A. I did not say iu the service of the East Coin p soy. Sir E. PE RRY—Theright bun. baronet said, " in re ceipt of the wages." The fact was, that he had received pudic money fur public servic,s, like the right hon. baronet, nod without, cauipat log himself to the right hon. baronet. he would sey that he had performed his services as faithfully as he had done. He would tell the right hon. baronet that he had done more injury than anybody ei,e to the inetioure before the house. He could easily understand that the right Lc:rt. baronet having arrived at his time of life was indisposed for any change, and probably that fact accounted fur his suggestion. He thought the clause proposed was entirely in unison with I clause 16, and he hoped the noble lord would adhere to It. Mr. V. SMITH did not wish fur delay, because the house wished to go into committee today. The discus sion had hitherto been all strictly to the point, and there fore he thought they were entitled to have these altera tions inside as plain as possible. During the sitting t f the committee the noble lord bad laid on the table as many as forty amendments, and the noble lord proposed also to introduce freak clauses on the report. Lord STANLEY sail the simple of jest of the clause was to carry out the generally exorees:d wish of the house that the principle of competition in the civil service should not be altered except on an appeal to Parliament. Mr. GLADSTONE thbnked the noble lord for intro ducing into the bid a positive enaettnent on the subject of competitive examinations. Furthermore, he thought the noble lord would act wisely in providing that the superintendence of the examinations should be placed in the hands of the Civil Service Commissioners, because they had the experience and staff which rendered them the best qualified to conduct such examinations. But the clause went somewhat beyond that, because it was a complete ouster of the council from many matters refer ring to the admission of candidates to tl,e civil service upon which they would be the most competent to give an opinion. Mr. MANGLES observed that there were other mat ters besides the examination to be taken into considera tion, and upon these the Minister could not do better than consult his council. Lord STANLEY thought the 36th clause prevented the exclusion of the council, but in order to pace t h e paint beyond doubt he would make a verbal alteration in the clause, so as to combine the action of the council with that of the Secretary of State. The clause was then agreed to and added to the bill, so was also the following :—" With ad convenient speed after the passing of this act, regulations shall be made by the Secretary of State in Council, with the advice and assistance of the cominisi , ionere for the time beingacting in execution of her Majesty's order in council of 21st May, 1855, for to-gulating the admission of persons to the civil service of toe crown,' for admitting all persons being nature'-horn subjects of her Majesty (and of such :tie and qualification as way be prescribed in this behalf) who may be desirous of becoming candidates for appoint moist to the civil service of India, to be examined as can didates accordingly,, and for prescribing the branches of knowledge in which such candidates shall be examined, and generally for regulating and conducting such exa minations under the superintendence of the said last mentioned commissioners, or of the persons for the time being entrusted with the carrying out of such regulations as may be from time to time established by her Majesty for examination, certificate, or other test of fitness in relation to appointments to junior situa tions in the civil service of the Crown, and the candi dates who may be certified by the said commissioners or other persons as of iresnii to be entitled under such re gulations admit be recommended for appointment accord ing to the order of their proficiency as shown by such examinatiew, acd such persons only ,as shall have been so certified as aforesaid shalt be appointed or admitted to the civil service of India by the Secretary of State in council ; provided always, that all regulations to be *nal° by the said Secretary of State under this act shall be laid before Parliament within 14 days after the making thereof, if Parliament be sitting, and if Parlia be not sitting, then within 14 days after the next meet ing thereof." Mr. GLADSTONE, pursuant to notice, rose to move the insertion of a clause relative to the levying of war in India. He quite acceded to the principle of our con stitution, that the right of making peace or war was a prerogative of the Crown and an executive function ; but the ex-reise of that prerogative was protected by a va riety of safeguards. For instance, it would be a viola tion of the constitution to maintain a standing army withbut the authority of Parliament. Nor was that au thority a mere matter of form, because every year Par liament was called upon not only to vote the money but the number of men, and that check insured the earliest appeal to Parliament in all matters connected with the levying of war by the Crown. So sacred was this prin ciple held that in 1825 or 1826, when Mr. Canning sent a small force to the assistance of Portugal against Spain, that involved no increase of the national expenditure, it was thooght advisable to bring a message down to Par liament on the subject. The difficulty of extending the principle to the Case of India was no doubt great, but by no means wo difficult as it was 60 years ago, when Par liament was first called upan to legislate for our East Indian territories, a 9.1 when the average period of com munication between this country and India was not less than five or six months, whereas now it did not take so many weeks. And yet at that time both Mr. Fox and Mr. Pitt embodied in their Indian Bill a elauae embracing the very principle he was now contending for. It might be said that the provision in the latter bill proved iueirec.ual, but he did not refer to the efficacy of the provision so much as to the principle which it su,tained, and which asserted the necessity of placing some limitation upon the pre rogative of the Crown in making p e a ce or war even in India. Well, then, the question no w_arose in what manner they should deal with the subject at the present time. If it was thought practicable in Mr. Pitt's day, surely the restriction could not possibly be embarrassing or inconvenient to the Executive Governnment in and age when science was doing so much to shorten the communication with the East. But if the restriction was necessary years ago, how much stronger had the case become by the lapse of time. In the Cap cf Mr. Fix and Mr. Pitt Indian wars were mere Lica( wars. ;roes - teas not the eme now, fur coat bad bceu the growth of the British Empire, that it had now reached a Queens troops were moved into another territory they Point when it became a subject of speculation as to ceased to be paid out of the revenues of India. what power might be intriguing against us. The enemy After a few words from Mr. MANGLES and Colonel might stand in positive geographical communication SYKES, • with our frontier, and it had became a serious matter for The word "in," after the words, " her Majesty's modern statesmen to consider whether an army in forces," was then struck out of the claim ; and the Europe might not be carried to India. The conse- words, "maintained out of the revenue of" inserted quence was, that wars had been advisedly for local in- I intnead of the word "in." fluences, but having far more reference to Europen in- I On the question that the clause as amended stand part terests, and on that account it was necessary the house ' of the bill, should seriously contemplate the imposition of such a Lord PALMERSTON said he was astonished at the restriction as that which ho was about to suggest. He course taken by her Majesty's Government with respect would refer to two instances of wars in India as illustra- : to this clause, which he thought a very objectionable tions of his argument. They were the war with Affghan- I one. He should not, however, take a division on the istan and the war with Persia. What was the political I question, for he knew that that would be useless. effect of those operations ?. What was the magnitude I (Laughter.) of the scale on which they were conducted? The The SPEAKER then put the question, that the war with Affgbanistan was the subject of long pre- , clause, as amended, stand part of the bill ; and, amid vious consideration ; it was not a sudden unforeseen much laughter, said, " I think the noes have it." necessity ;it was the fruit of long and deliberate con- The division bell was then rung, the cries of "agreed" sideration, and if it bad been necessary to appeal to . being very general, while hon. roe'inbers were claming in Parliament before it was commenced there was no I from the library and dining-rooms. When the question doubt it could have been done without the least danger had been put after the closing of the doors, the Speaker or inconvenience. It was entered upon without such a declared that the "ayes" had it. A division, however, reference, athough a large section of the House of took plane, and the numbers were— Commons disapproved of it—so much so indeed that at For the clause one time while it was in progress the right honourable Against it baronet the member for Carlisle gave notice of his inten- Majority for the clause —lO6 tion to challenge the Minister upon the subject; but, from Lord PALMERSTON th en rose t o move t h e follow motives of state policy, it was found impossible to bring ing clause—" That so m uc h o f thi s act as re l ates t o th e the motion on, and Parliament was excluded from pro nouncing an opinion upon a war that involved the lives nomination, election, durati on o f serv i ce , sa l ar i es , an d of as many subjects of the Queen as the Russian war, retired allowances of the councillors shall not continue and added between 12,000,0001. and 15,000,0001. to the in force longer than for five years from the let of at present proposed to be constituted was, in hie debt of India. Let the war have been right and neces- August, 1858." The noble lord said that the council as opinion, maxim f a one continuation o f the po l i o t f i ea ? w e r d i t o e u rs b l o a f g l o t v a el It aly nm statede nt . that A sary, it did not matter for his purpose ; that was not his point. What he said was that it was a matter upon which Parliament ought to have something to say ; but no opportunity was afforded for saying it. It was impos when it was desired to maintain things as much like Bible to refer to the judgment of Parliament after the what they were as possible their name should be war had commenced. At a much was made to challenge the judgment later date an attemp n t changed. (Laughter.) That was wh a t h er M a j es ty' s upon it, but it failed. With regard to the Persian war, the government were about to do in the case of the Indi an case was still more apparent; it came nearer home by administration. He had no objection to the gre ater many degrees to the rights of the British people and the number of the councillors being chosen from amongst privileges of the house. When the Government of the the directors of the East India Company, who were men o day gave orders for their military operations in Persia, of experience in Indian affairs ; but he saw no good rea son why the salary of the gentlemen so to be chosen was they appeared to have felt that it would be unjust to to be raised from 5001. to 1,5001. a-year, when their impose on the people of India the entire burden of the duties were not to be so onerous as they had hitherto war. Accordingly, they made an arrangement under been. Again, the East Indi a di rec t ors held office for which the immediate cost of the war was to devolve upon the limited period of six years, subject to re-election after the East India Company, but a portion of that cost was that time. They were liable to retirement into private to be reimbursed by Parliament. In the autumn of life without any pension, The councillors under the 1856 the order was sent out for commencing military new bill were to hold office for life, with a liability to operations in Persia ; in February, 1 85 7, Parliament retire after a certain period on a p ens i on o f 500/. a-year. met, but there was no special or direct reference to the These councillors would not hav e t o d ec id e an ythi ng ; war in the speech from the throne or the address, The the cabinet minister would be the party to decide. The Government were asked whether they inteaded to take counc ill ors wou ld h ave no responsibility, whereas the any vote upon it, and they replied that they did not. directors were responsible to their constituents. There The Parliament which existed when the war with Persia was little doubt that within two years' time a great deal was begun was dissolved without its having bad an op of the detail business that was at present sent home from portunity of saying whether it was an assenting party India to be transacted in this country would be done on to the operations ; and yet it was during the existence the spot, so that the duties of the councillors would be of that Parliament that the whole expenditure was in- growing less important. He was quite confident tbatils curred. Again, he would not say one word upon the government were framing their bill they was too large a number of councillors. When policy of the war—he would assume, if they liked, that his there was a public necessity for all the measures taken. were of opinion that six would be sufficient, but His doctrine was simply this, they were measures to made the number up to eight in deference to the which Parliament ought to have been a party. It such opinions of others. Indeed, he thought that the a precedent were allowed to grow into a practice it tendency of the noble lord's (Lord Stanley's) mind was in would amount to a perfect nullification of the privileges the -same direction ;and h e lik e wise was of opinion that of the House of Commons, which were most vitally cos- 15 wou ld b e f ound too many. He (Lord Palmerston) netted with the liberties of the people, and therefore he did not, in the clause which he now proposed, ask the strongly urged upon the house the necessity of placing house to interfere with its former decision in respect of some restraint in this respect upon the future ac - ion of the council. His obj ec t was to enable Parliament to the Government. He concluded by moving the follow- deal with the council at a future time without being met ing clause, viz. :—" Except for repelling actual invasion, with the question of " vested interest," or that ef " par er under other sudden and urgent necessity, her Ma- liamentary title ;" and under these circumstances he jeety'e forces in the East Indies shall not be employed thought the Government ought to consent to the inser in any military operation beyond the external frontier tion of the cause. (Hear, hear.) . • of her Majesty's Indira possessions witheut the consent Lard STANLEY said that, though the noble lord of Parliament to the purposes thereof." Lord STANLEY did not rise to reply to the argu- who had just addressed them had stated that he did not ments of his right hon. friend, but merely to observe that wish to put the house under the necessity of reconsider though he did tot quite go the length of his illustrations, ing the question which they had already decided, he he yet concurred with him in the opinions he had ex• (Lord Palmerston) advocated the insertion of his clause pressed, and should therefore offer no opposition to the on the ground that it would give the house an oppor introduction of the clause. The reason such, a clause tunity of reconsidering that question within a limited was not introduced into the original bill was this ; it was time. (Hear.) Ile objected to the plan which the noble felt that althou g h such a clause would be valuable an a declaration of the intentions and opinions of Parliament, lord proposed for giving Parliament au opportunity of still, as a practical check upon the Minister, it would considering the sueject, and he did so because Perlis not have much force. It was a matter of importance, went had an opportunity of considering it, not in five however, that there should be placed formally on record y ears, but at the very earliest peri o d a t w hi n h it or any some notice of the intentions and feelings of Parliament otber portion of the measure now under discussion should on the subjnet, and as such a declaration he accepted prove inconvenient in practice, if any part of the bill this clause. Iu that light he regarded it, in that sense should turn out to be so. (Hear.) The noble lord he accepted it. spoke of keeping the door open for a reconsideration. airysio Why,tradnosi Stanley) ye t r)m h e e cetod d hn o ots o uoi door was i 1 atil and hear)—but objection.dt r , tuTn, db thatet i rt thethh ho (Lord (Hear , ni e nobly ecae r r Sir G. C. LEWIS said that if this clause was adopt hwrtai wish u g tg h o t toephreeeptiu—qtwu open—(hear, 1 s :a e t r i a g l o i r rn a , ed, it should be c insidered in what way Parliament should give its consent to an Indian war, in which it was not necessary to vote supplies'. It was unconstitutional for Parliament to interfere directly. hear.) He theuelet there was a great objection to fixing Lord PALMERSTON would not argue the question any definite period at which any particular measure in rig rd to the past wars to which his right hon. must be dealt with. He remember e d t o h ave h ear d great complaints that the subject of th e B tu b Ch ar t er friend (Mr. Gladstone) had alluded, except to observe that was obliged to be brought under discussion at a peal the war with Persia mere especially was announced te ament in the most formal manner in the Qmen - , s cular time, no matter how imp or t an t m i g ht b e th e o th er Parli measures which that discussion would interfere with. speech at the opening of the session, and that any mem- Five years ago, when the Government of which the noble her who chose to do s o had thus the opportunity afforded lord eeaa a member brought forward a measure which to him of raising the question, and taking the opinion of it was proposed should be reconsitered in 10 years, the Parliament upon it. He concurred with his right hon. feeling of the h ,use was imanife,ted against that proposed friend that it was not in accordance with the principle reconsiieration. There might be at such a period events of the constitution to require the assent of Parliament of public moment—there might be a reform bill ; there to be obtained previews to declaring war. The funda might be great questions of organic change; there might mental principle of the constitution was that tuts declar- be inn jests absoreing the whole public attention; there ing cf war arid the making of peace tested with the might ue war imminent orectual; and any or all of these Crown upon the respensibeity of the advisers of the circumstances might prevent their giving that atte n ti on Crown, and it would be to introduce a principle dsstrucs to the topic it deserved. 'the noble lord had said he was five of the British constitution to maietain that the tea afraid that vested interests wouli be created under this sent of Parliament was necessary either for the declaring bill, and that, therefore, Parliament would be compelled of war or the waking of peace. (Hear, bear.) I-1 - e was to pay heavy compensation if it proposed to diminish astonished, therefore, that the Minister of the CrOWD the number of the Council or to diminish the amount of did no: rise and protest against doctrines so inconsistent their salaries; but if the noble lord would look at the with the princiPles of the constitution. (Hear.) But apart last paragraph of clause 14, he would find it was pro from the constitutional question, he wiehod to address sided that if at any time hereafter it should appear ex himself for a moment to the wording of the clause. First, peclient to Parliament to reduce or alter the constitution his right hon. friend proposed to enact that her Majesty's of the Count 1, no member of the Council who bad not forces in the East Indies shall not be empleyed in any served 10 years should be entitled to compeneation. The military operations beyond the external portion of her noble lord then went on to find fault with the provision* Majesty's Indian possessions without the consent of of the amendment. He said, "You would continue the Parliament, except to repel invasion. Now, invasion double government and leave nothing but the same ma could only be repelled within the domieions of the coun chinery that Existed before." At the beginning of the try invaded. This part of the clause, therefore, was some- year the noble lord had delivered an interesting speech thing like what, had it emanated from some hon. gen- on this subject, in which he dwelt with force on the in tleman from the other aide of the Channel, would have convenience and delay and the complexity that was been called a bull. (A. laugh.) But what was meant caused to ordinary business from the existence of the by her 'Majesty's forces in the East Indies ? Was it the two offices, and from the sending to and fro despatches local army or the Queen's troops, being part of the regu one to another, but under the present bill this would not far army, but stationed in India for the time, that these be the case. The administration of India would be words were intended to refer ? He imagined that the directly under the Oro en; great facilities were provided restriction was meant co apply only to the Indian army, for placing the army on a different footing, and steps because if not, it would prevent any of the Qaeen's bad been taken without which measures of subsequent troops eervine in India from being moved to carry on reform would be far more difficult of accomplishment. military operations in other parts of the world without The noble lord had objected to the number of the Coon the previous steps required by the clause. But suppers) cil, and said that the number of 15 on committees of tee a war we; to break out with China or with Turkey, and 11, ' u eof Commons was not found to work well. But it was found necessary to remove some of the Queen's was that the experience of the house? Was it not rather troops serving in India to take part in such war—was it the case that the house usually adopted that number as intended that those troops should be placed ih regard to being not too large for practical business ? In point of their employment on a different footing from the troops fact, the ereater parte the work to be done by the Council at the Cape, the Mauritius, or any other part of the would be done by smallcommitteee, and not by the whole Q-ieen's dominions ? He presumed that that, at all collective body. The noble lord said he thought the events, was not what the noble lord (Stanley) intended, members; of the Government would look forward to the and if not, he would respectfully submit to the noble time when a reduction in the numbers of the council lord that he bad been eornewhat hasty in adopting this would be desirable, and they had been told that by adopt clause, and that it would be well if he would take for- n i g the proposed different mode of carrying on the busi ther time to consider it. (Hear.) ness of India, they would probably diminish the work of The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The the Government at home. That was a question on which noble lord says that by the constitution of the country he would pronounce no opinion, either one way or the the Sovereign alone possesses the power of peace and other. It it turned out that the amount of work to be war, and therefore he objects to the principle of this transacted at home would be diminished, then it would clause. No doubt the constitution places in the hands become a question whether the number of the council of the Crown the p ower o f declaring war and making should not be diminished; although he might mention peace, but what we have been considering is a state of that they did not look on these members of council, like affairs which is not under the constitution of this coon- so many clerks, to go through a number of despatches, try. (Cheers.) Though the power of peace and war rest but they were wanted for the experience they could bring with the Sovereign, practically the constitution gives to and the advice they would give—for the general admi the House of Commons the control in the power of vet- nistrative capability they oneld give to the Government, ing or w ithholding the supplies for carrying on war. But and not merely with reference to the amount of manual in the case of India, if the power of declaring war and labour. He never denied that it might be possible here making peace is left with the Sovereign entirely,when that after to-reduce them. Remembering how they were at power is . once exercised there are no means of control, this moment actingon conjecture—remembering the diffi. and a policy might be pursued which might be e xtremely culty of the experiment to be tried—a Minister might not injurious to the interes sof the country. The instances be ashamed to eome down to the house, and say that the to which the noble lord referred as showing the incon- facts of the case had differed from his original anticipa venience which might arise from accepting this clause do Lion. (Hear.) He did not think there would be any diffi not, in my opinion, apply. The noble lord argued that if culty in a Minister taking such a course, but he did object any portion of the Queen's troops serving in in India should to condemn by anticipation a plan which the house had be wanted to carry on military operations China or in fully sanctioned. (Hear.) If the noble lord thought so Turkey, we could not, under this clause, so employ them. badly of it, it was not a question whether it should last My answer to that is that if the Queen's troops should five y ears, but whether it shoeld be passed into a law at be so required in China or in Turkey, it must be in ail ; and if that were his opinion, he would have au consequence of the exercise • of the prerogative of the opportunity on the third reading of the bill, which was crown under the constitution of this country in declar- not very distant, to ascertain whether that would be ing war—(hear)—and in that case the Houseof Commons the opinion of the house. (Cheers.) would have the power of exercising its constitutional Mr. BLIGHT intended to support the proposal of the privilege by voting or withholding the supplies and con. noble lord the rnemb2r for Tiverton, and indeed the noble trolling the powers of the crown—(hear, bear)--there- lord the Minister for India had furnished a very strong fare, although perhaps some alt eration may be necessary argument in its favour when he reminded the house that in the language of the,,clause, lam of opinion that it is the work they were engaged on was very much founded not, as the noble lord supposes, an attack upon the pre- ox conjecture. Well, they all knew that, but it was just for that reason that Parliament should retain rotative of the crown, but a wise and politic provision. p recisely the power recommended by the noble viscount. But besides (Cheers.) that, it must bo remembered that the measure had been Lord J. RUSSELL concurred in the general policy passe d by a party which had only made up its mind, upon of the clause, for the reasons which the right hon. gentle- compulsion, to legislate at all for India. (Hear.) There man had stated. If the clause passed in its present were, therefore, strong reasons for doubting whether the form it would prevent the sending of any of her Majesty's bill was likely to p romot e t he future good government_ of forces in India beyond the frontier without the consent that country. If another Indian convulsion should not of Parliament, and the delay and publicity consequent come about a before that timeit was not wholly impossible against the government of India on bringing the matter before Parliament might lead to that the same compl ints the failure of an operation such as the capture of Java. might be heard io l 5 years to come. Ho thought, there - fore, it would be a very wise precaution for Parliament to Teerefore, whilst agreeing in the policy of the clause, retain the power of revising the bill. (Hear.) he thought some alteration was required in the wording. Mr. MACAULAY regardod the proposal of the noble The SOLICITOLI-GENERAL would submit to the lord as wholly inconsistent with the provisions of the bill right hon. gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) whether his already sanctioned. object might not be effected in a more satisfactory Mr. SMITH said that the objection just urged by his manner by inserting, instead of the words, "in the East hon. friend would equally applyother alterations to any tthere was great "maintained out of the revenues of the East they might make in the bill. He thought Indies," Indies." (Hear, hear.) force in the remarks of his noble friend in reference to the Mr. WILSON said, that what he presumed his right constitution of the proposed committee, and he must say hon. friend (Mr. Gladstone) wished to provide was, that that nothing in his opinion could b e more extraordinary than the course taken by Government in reference to it. a similar check should be bad in the case of Indian wars 1 . Mr. WHITESIDE thought that the proposal of the to that which existed in the case cf European wars. He noble lord, as well as tie tine of the right hon. gentleman thought that object wo uld he hest e ff ec t e d by inserting, was not very complimentary to the house, which had instead of the w ords, , i hen Majesty's forces in the East , shown the greatest industry in framing the bill as it now Indies," , 3r.0., the words, "the revenues of India shall I stood. Gentlemen of the largest experiexceconeected with not be employed," &c. India had again and ace,in declared that the number of 15 Mr. GLADSTONE said he bad no objection to make was necessitated by the requirements of the council, and the alteration suggested by the Solicitor General, which that such a number not too many. The noble was one hink be thought would meet the case. He did not t ,( • •effect t provide that at the end of five lord's propose was in o years the whole fabric which they had taken such pains to the alteration suggested by his hon. friend (Mr. Wilson) - erect should crumble into dust. That, undoubtedly, would was a desirable one. be the result of the noble lord's proposal, although it was Lord PALMERSTON would remind his right hon. ushered in by a speech at total variance with any such I friend (Mr. Gladstone) that the Queen's troops station e d conclusion. No doubt the argument of the hon. member in India were paid out of the revenues of that country I 1 for Bine:thigh= was quite consistent, but then the hoe. as well as those of the Indian army. I gentleman was opposed to the eeistence o f a counc il the bolles to reject theproposal of Mr. GLADSTONE observed that the noble lord's at all. Hit called upon _ . . I statement was quite correct, but the raurnsnt the the noble i lord awl thus sbow thernselvee enwellieti to , .. .. prognosticate disaster for a schema which they had taken such pains to frame. (Hear, hear.) Mr. MELLOR thought the proposal of the noble lord was calculated to work beneficially for the country, and therefore be should support it. Mr. A. KENNARD likewise regarded the suggestion of the noble lord with favour, as ho thought the question of the goveroment of India could not be raised too often in Parliament, if they desired the benefit of that country. Mr. AYRTON regarded the present as the most mis chievous of all the many proposals which the noble viscount had urged with reference to India. (Hear, hear, from the Government benches.) He should have thought the noble lord ought to have remained satisfied with the divisions which he had already taken with regard to the bill, and have felt that his views with regard to India were distaste. ful to the house. One fatal objection to the proposal now brought forward was, that it would make the council de pendent upon the good opinions of the Government of the day. Mr. DUNLOP welcomed the noble lord's motion, which compelled the house to re-consider this question. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the effect of the clause would be that they should reconstruct the council at the end of five years, but that after that period the council would cease, and the whole of the power would be vested in the hands of the Secretary of State. The mea sure which the hon. member for Birmingham had through out consi,tently supported would come to pass. The noble lord had at first a lvocated a council of eight, who would be mere ciphers, and now he went two steps further and wished that after five years the whole power would vest in the Secretary of State. The hon. member for Perth said it was very difficult to get the attention of the House of Commons to Indian questions, and that it was now only because the Indian revolt had forced their attention to the subject that a bill was able to be carried. But that went against his own theory, because in five years hence there would probably be no such emergency to force attention to the subject, and the effect of his proposition would be that Parliament would have to remodel the Indian Government at a time when he could have uo guarantee that they would not be in the very state of mind which he depre cated. What would be most calculated to paralyse the powers and exertions of the council, would be to tell them that they were only to last for five years. Mr. WILSON said the hon. and learned gentleman was mistaken. The Secretary of State had no power under the bill except in council; and if the council lapsed the power, the Secretary of State would lapse too. The effect of the bill would be, that it would be incumbent on Parliament to reconsider the whole question. That would only be what had been done in all India bills, which were inva riably for limited periods. The great difference between the two bills of the Government showed how unsettled the question was; and the debates showed the lack of infor mation on the subject. These were strong reasons for supporting the amendment. Mr. G. H. VANSITTART felt convinced that nothing would be gained by adopting the proposition of the noble lore. If it was held but that the council should only en dure for five years it was impossible that our Indian policy could be placed on a firm basis. Such an arrangement would lead to much doubt and confusion. Mr. DARBY GRIFFITHS said he thought they ought to have au opportunity of revising the measure at a definite period, and he thought it most reasonable to adopt the period proposed by the noble lord. Mr. ADAMS thought the noble lord could hardly be serious in desiring to see this clause become a portion of the bill. The bill was framed with a view to members being appointed for life, or during good behaviour, and the noble lord now proposed that the council should only last for five years. They would never get the right sort of men to accept office under such circumstances. Without per manency, how could they expect the people of India to have any confidence in the Government ? Again, the pro position would destroy the independence of the council, by making them dependent on whoever might be Minister at the end of the five years ; and if they were place seekers they would for the latter part of the term strive to gain his favour. These were reasons why the salary of the directors should not be the measute of that of the coun cillors. The directors had themselves a pecuniary interest in the prosperity of the company, and were not bound to give all their time. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that at the end of the live years, if the amendment were carried, the whole of the power would be in the handsof the Secre tary of State. The hon. member for Devonport had said that the whole of the powers of the Secretary of State could only be exercised in council. But the object of the amendment was to abrogate only so much of the bill as re ferred to the council, and as the bill transferred all the powers of the company to the Crown, the effect would be to leave the absolute and irceponsible power in the hands of the Secretary of State. It would be perfectly regular and straightforward if the noble lord had on the third read ing asked the house to reject the bill ; but the course I aken by the noble lord was to ask them at this stage to so modify the bill as to transfer an arbitrary power to the Crown, thereby abrogating all they had hitherto decided on. The house would pause before agreeing to such a proposal after all t heir labours. He had thought the original proposal one to be regarded with suspicion as leaving too great control of patronage to the secretary, but even that provided a parliamentary control. But this proposal would place the Government of India beyond the control or cognisance of Pat liameut, and undoing all their work would leave only a caput mortuum. The noble lord could surely not have contemplated that result, but that would certainly be the effect of the amendment. He deprecated the redisenssion of the principle at a stage which should only relate to detail. Lord PALMERSTON said the speeches from the Trea sury benches, to judge from the altered appearance of the seats behind him, had, like thei resolutions, answered their purposes. (Laughter.) There were two ways in which the propositions he had made were met by the Go vernment. One was that which was adopted when there was no answer. , He was then met with silence ; without attempting argument, Government met him by going to a division. The other mode was more complimentary. It was to totally, fundamentally, and entirely misrepresent his proposition, and answer not what he proposed, but something totally, fundamentally, and entirely different.. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the clause would have the effect of handing over the whole govern ment of India, without any check, to the Secreta ry o f State, because it, would make to cease the existence and functions of the council. But on the contrary he pur posely and studiously avoided saying that the council should cease. The part of the bill which constituted the council and compelled the secretary to act in conjunction with it, would continue untouched, but the clause would put an end to their salaries and to the number. As to the mode of appointment, the alteration would only apply to any vacancies which might arise after the five years. The only effect of the clause would be, that they would be compelled to reconsider the number and salaries. That would, cf course, involve the reconsideration of the whole arrangement, but that was the merit of the clause. It would not put an end to the council, or hand over the governme_.t to the Secretary of State, as had been al leged. The house then divided, when the numbers were— For Lord Palmerston's clause ll5 Against it Majority for Government . The announcement of the numbers was received with loud cheers. Mr. D. SEYMOTJIt moved the following clause : " Whereas it is expedient that some offices hitherto ex clusively filled by members 'of the civil service should be thrown open to other qualified persons, the 56th and 57th section of the act 33d Geor ge 111 ., c. 52 , are hereby repealed." The repeal of these clauses was approved of by several persons in India of the highest authority and position in the civil service. The effect of the clauses had been to debar the company availing themselves of a great deal of talent in India, and the repeal of them would not only allay any irritation that might exist between the civil and non-civil servants in India, but would increase the efficiency of the administration. The hon. gentleman con cluded by moving the clause. Lord STAN LEY said the hon. gentleman had opened a wide subject, which by his proviso was treated in a most summary and sweeping manner. He (Lord Stanley) had not had an opportunity of inquiring into the relations be tween the uncovenantedand the civil service, bnt it seemed to him that his proviso would sweep away all the privi leges which had been enjoyed by the covenanted civil ser vice during the last 70 years. He thought that the mem , mendations of the hon. member would breako up the whole framework of society in India, and would have a greater effect upon the internal government of that country than probably many hon. members anticipated. The subject should engage the attention of the Government, but he hoped the house would not at present pledge itself to any positive course on the subject. Sir E. COLEBROOKE thought it would be dangerous for the house to pledge itself to any direct course upon this point at present. Mr. W. VANSITTART called attention to the state of the Indian army, tpwards the reorganisation of which he regretted no step had been tkaen. Mr. D. SEYMOUB, withdrew his clause. Mr. GREGSON moved the following clause :—" That the settlements of Penang, Singapore, Malacca, Labuan, and Sarawak, be placed under the President of the Celle. cil of India." Mr. FITZROY objected to the proposition, which he thought could not stand in the form of a clause. The SPEAKER confirmed this view of the ease, and the clause fell to the ground. Lord STANLEY moved the following proviso :—" That if / an y person - being or having been such director, and elected or appointed as aforesaid, shall refuse to accept the office, it shall be lawful for her Majesty, by warrant under her royal sign manual, to appoint in the place of every director so refusing, some other person to be a member of the council, but so that nine members of the council at the least shall be persons qualified as hereinafter mentioned." The proviso was agreed to. Sir E. PERRY moved in clause 10, after "behaviour," to insert, "and Isbell not, so long as ho remain such councillor, accept, hold, or carry on any other office or situation, or any other profession or employment from which any gain or profit shall be derived." Lord STANLEY said the clause had been discussed over and over again, and there could be no mistake as to the nature of the duty of the councillors. They would have to give up as much time as was necessary for the perform ance ofitheir duties, and further than that the Government was not disposed to impose further restrictions upon them. Sir C. FORTESCUE said there 'was a restriction im posed on members of the Court of Directors, namely, that they should not be engaged in any other way or trade with India. He thought that restriction might be imposed on members of the new council. The amendment was negatived without a division. Lord STANLEY moved on elates() 15 to leave out " with out the consent in writing of the Chancellor of the Exche quer," and insert " except by a similar order in council, to be laid in like manner before both houses of Parliament." The amendment was agreed to. Lord J. RUSSELL moved to leave out clauses 27 and 28; relating to the secret committee. The noble lord strongly objected to the unreserved power which it was proposed to delegate to the Minister as to acting on his now responsibility, and with respect to calling in the ser vices of the secret minister. The present President of the Board of Control was as objectionable, as his successot: might be objectionable—(hear, he ar , an d a 1%11031-- and although the former might exercise the power ver.th advantage, the Minister who succeeded him might act ha a different spirit. The noble lord concluded by mating the omission of the clauses. Tho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, said that the 27th clause referred, not to the general mode of con sulting the council, bat to the circumstances in which the Minister would be compelled to act ,vithout delay. He did not think it wise to Gine the limits of the secrecy pro posed by the chews. Was it probable that in the state of society in ';e'rtich we lived that the Minister would abuse the noeeer entrusted to him lie thought that the proba bilities entirely opposed to that contingency. The object of the bill was mainly to establish the responsibility of the Minister. It was not contended that there should ha no FOCI ecy; but he was not prepared to argue that there should be no limit. Tiro danger arose that by attempting to defih e a limit the efficiency of the Minister in a given I QK 4 eNg.ell , !,y might be impaired. The responsibility of the Minister to the house was not denied, and he hoped the house would pause before they assented to the course proposed by the noble lord. He was sure that the noble lord had not made this suggestion in any spirit of hostility to the bill ; indeed, the noble lord, like many other mem bers, had shown that in discussing a great question like this they could sink any party feelings in a sense of public duty. (Hear, hear.) But believing that this was a power which ought to be exercised by the Minister, he hoped the olauses would be retained. Sir J. GRAHAM said be was actuated by no hostility to the bill. On the contrary, he had on many occasions during the discussion voted in favour of its provisions. During the government of the late Sir R. Peel the question arose in the Court of Directors whether the Governor-General should be recalled. The matter was under debate by 21 directors for two months, and the secrecy of their deliberations was maintained by them—the Board of Control being the body which had divulged the secret. Arguing from the past, he believed that the A ffghan war was the fore runner of many of our disasters in India, and that if the pulicy of that war had been debated in the Court of Direc tors, a wiser course would have prevailed, and the war would not have been undertaken. So with respect to the Persian war. He was, therefore, opposed to delegating this large discretionary power of secrecy to the Minister, and should vote for the excision of the clauses. The coun cil, he felt convinced, would be worthy of the confidence of the Minister, who, in a case of emergency, could impose secrecy on them. Cases requiring secrecy would, he be lieved, be very rare. Sir G. C. LEWIS recommended the house to adhere to the clause in the bill establishing the powers of the secret eommittee, and expunge the clauses as now suggested by the noble lord the member for London. Mr. MANGLES said he had had very recent experience in this matter, as a member of the secret committee. Strange as it might seem, it was a fact that the whole con quest of Scinde was conducted in the secret committee, and the affairs of the province for many years administered in that department. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle had rather understated the case with regard to the miner in which the Court of Directors had kept the secret with regard to the recall of Lord Ellen borough. Pending that transaction, six members had re tired by rotation—so that thirty members in all had faith fully kept the secret. (Hear.) After a few word s'from thelSoLiciTOß-GENERAL, Lord PALMERSTON said the house was asked to enact as to India that which ought not to be enacted with re gard to any other portion of her Majesty's dominions. The Cabinet under this bill are responsible for the government of India; and it would be contrary to the spirit of the British constitution that they should necessarily call into their confidence the members of the council. The proposal was one which introduced a totally new principle into the working of our administrative and constitutional system. The house then divided on the 27th clause — For the clause Against . Majority —27 Mr. T. G. BARING moved to leave out " in the en gineers and in the Artillery," and Insert "in the Military College at Addiscombe." Lord STANLEY objected to the amendment. After a few words from Col. SYKES, The amendment was withdrawn, and the clause was agreed to. The bill, as amended, was then agreed to, and ordered !•,o be read a third time on Thursday. UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL . Oa the motion for the third reading of this bill, Lord ELCHO tendered his best thanks to the Lord- Advocate for this excellent measure. Mr. DUNLOP concurred in opinion with the noble lord. Col. SYKES, amidst loud cries of " Divide," gave a qualified assent to the bill. He objected to the junction o the colleges of Aberdeen. The bill was then read a third time and passed. CIVIL BILLS, Sto. (IRELAND), AMENDMENT BILL. On the motion for the second reading of this bill; Mr. Sergeant DEA.SY hoped the bill would not be pro• ceeded with at that late hour. The motion was then withdrawn, and the second read ing fixed for Thursday. The Titles to Land (Scotland) Bill passed through com• mittee. JURIES (IRELAND) Mo. 2) BILL. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL' for IRELAND with• drew this bill. Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD withdrew his bill, which was of a similar character. The Wills, &e., of British Subjects Abroad was read a third time and passed. The Copyright of Designs Bill was read a third time and passed. - The Stipendiary Magistrates, &c., Bill was read a third time and passed. The Police (Scotland) Act Amendment Bill passed through committee. The Lunatics (Scotland) Act Amendment Bill passed through committee. The County, &c., Property Conveyance Bill was read a second time. Tho other orders were disposed of, and the house ad journed at five minutes past ore o'clock. Country Markets. LIVERPOOL, JULY G. The market to-day open..ql with strength, sink although the passing business was 'slot notable for activity for con sumption, buyers being very shy, wheat and flour must be quoted 2d Jer n. Pd flour is par sack and barrel higher on the week. LEEDS, JULY 6. NV .. 13 have very few fresh arrivals of wheat, bat there ie a fair show of samples from warehouse. lit consequence of the continued excitement abroad, and the improvement in London, an advance of 2s per qr from the rates of Fri' day is firmly demanded, whidi millers comply with oulY to a small extent, consequen dy little business has been done. Barley nominal. Oats and beans held for more money, but the demand Melted. Other articles as before. NORWICH 'CATTLE -JuLY 3. There was a tolerable show of Scow, short-horns, De eons, and Irish exhibitad to-day. Trade inactive. Fat beasts, 7s Od to 7$ Gd ; prime, Ss Od per stone; 1)(44 about same as last woei k . Sheep, 34s to 38s per head, and good store pigs, 15a to 2N. Fat pork, Ga to Ga 6el pet stone of 141bs; trade dull. PROVISION Beef, per lb 6Ad to 7. , ,d I Mutton, per 14 13Ad to 7d Lamb, do., (is 9d to Os Veal, per lb ... 6d to Os Oid I Pork, per 1b...0s s,id to tir-sd Salmon, per lb ..... Os Od Grouse, per brace..,...os to Os Tallow, p stone, Os to —s 01 KAMICET. Butter, p pt. is 5d to is 0 Eggs, per 18, Os Od to le o° , Hens, p p a i r O s Od t o O a 01 Chickens,do.4s Od to 5s 6 1 Ducks, do., 4s 6d to 6s 61 Ducklings,do 2s Od to 2s .6: Turkeys, each Os Od to 0 Potatoes, per pt., ....3d to COURSE OF EXCUANGE.—YESTERDAY. A mS l Ordana...... •• •• •. 1 1 15 1 4 Gibraltar........ •• "* Ditto, three months .. 11 17% Leghorn .. •• ••.... 29 75 it) tterdant ............ 11 17j Genoa ..... 2.5 50 Antwerp •... •• •• ••••25 35 khan • ....•• •• •• •• •• •• Brussels .... • • •• •• 2 5 35 1Venice.............. Bamburgh •• •• •• •• •• •• 13 7 INapleg . ...... . 41g Altona • • •• •• •• •• • • ;Pr.lermo •• •• ..... ••• •• 125% Paris • • • .... 25 10 :Messina .... 12544 Do. three months .. •. 25 3234 Lisbon .. 52 Marseilles •• •••• •• 25 35 Oporto .. •••••••••• • • •• 52g Bourdeaax .. • • ........ RicyJaneiro ..... .• • • ..• •-• Frankfort-on-Maine •• .. 118 % Buenos Ayres.... • • .. Berlin ................ New York,6o days' sight Vienna • • 10 27 Phila.delphia •• . Trieste 10 28 'lsamu OF BULLION. PEI OZS Petersburg ..... 35% Fr,reign Gold in Bars £3 17 9 Madrid 49 F 4.i ortugal Gold Coln .. 00 0 Cadiz ......... • • ...... 49% ' Mexican Dollars .... 0 0 0 Barcelona • • 7, j New Dollars 0 0 0, Seville... . • • .• ,Silver in bars ...... 0 5 1, LOCAL 811 ARE MARKird. LIVEJAPOOL-JrLY 6. STOCK EXCHANGE --The improved feeling of yesterdsl still continues firm, .aoad the market closed firm at a furthst advance of about, per cent. Subjoined are the closinf prices :—Dovers, 201 a --York and North Midland, 35i w —Berwicks, 221 --East Lancashire, 901 I—Caledoniai? , 37,4 s—Leeds Noethern, 23/ Dutch Rhenish, Gi 1 di"' —London and North-Western, 90 Sheffield, 36i 7ir; Chester and Holyhead, IN—Eastern Counties, 12 3-1" —Great westo 7 .'n, 50 I i—Lancashire and Yorkshire, 91i —Great Western of thinada, 16/ 7a- Blackburns, 11i Midland, 01i 2 —North British, 12i i—Birkenheads, 68 S —Grand Trunk of Canada, 104 g. BIRMINGHAM, JULY G. STOCIC EXCHANGL—There was an improvement in th ° market here to-day, but business was limited. Londons• 89 891—South Stafford 10i—Great Westerns, 49A--Bir taingham Canal, 94. LEEDS, JULY 6. STOCK EXCHANGE.— North Easton, Yorks, 711—Mid' landa, 91A—Leeds, 88k. MANCHESTER, JULY 6. STOCK EXCHANGE.—The market opened rather firmer► and a considerable business was done, chiefly in Leeds anti Midlands. Blackburns, 11 15.16—Dovers, 20A—Leedof 901- Midlands, 91—Trunks, 104—North British, Sheffields, 37—Eastern Counties, 124. BIRTHS. ANSTRUTHER —On the sth inst., at 74,Wimpole-street, Cava' dish-square, the wife of Captain Anstruthor, Grenadian Guards, of a ton. ANSELIA—On the sth inst.. the wife of George F. Ansel], of the Royal Mint, Esq., of a son. FRAMPTON —On the sth inst., at Bills combe, Plymstoek, South Devon, the wife of Major H. 4. Frampton, of a daughter. lIARLBOROUGH — On the 4th in st.., at 36, Lower Brook-street, the Duchess of Marlborough, of a son. MARE lAGES. Heasis—JoxEs —On the I st inst., at Pensax, Worcestershire► tho Rev. Henry Harris►, 8.D., rector of Winterbourno Bassett, Wilts, to Elinor Marian, youngest daughter of tbo, late J. H. W. Jones, E. of Chasticton-house, county O Oxford. WHITER — LEA—On the Gth inst., at Kingsland Congregaiionti, Church, Thomas, yourngest son of James Whiter, Esq., 01 Spital-square and Bethnal-green, to Lydia Sarah, eldest daughter of Charles Lea, Esq., of Kingsland and MildmAr pal k. DEATHS. Atxam—On the 6th inst., at 19, Southampton-street, Blooms' bury, N. L. Ainger. COLMAX—On the 3d inst., at Lowestoft, Joseph Colman, agJd 54. COT LER— 0 n the 21 lust., at 9, Queen's-gardens, Hyde-park , Frederick Cutler, Esq., late of Furnival's-inn, aged 60. FORSTER-- On the 15th May, at Lucknow, of confluent small' pox, Captain William Frederick Forster, 18th Regiment , only surviving son of Colonel Forster ; Peputy-Adjutant' General. MAcm----On the 3d inst., at Bargaly, John Mackie, Esq late M.P. for the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright. Macirux.--On the sth inst., at 8, Charles-street, Lownde o ' square, Edward C. Mitchell, aged 72. Wastr---On the 4th inst., at 11, Queen's-road, Regent's-parUP William Cecil Wray, aged two 3 cars and two months. I.olcDobr : Printed and Published by KURD() YOUN OO of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at 2'w San Office, No 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy. in Ow count ( of Aliddlos..a, Wedues.lay, July 7, 1.