The Sun. — London, England, 1858-06-25 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. 1101;SE OF LORDS. --(YESTERDAY. ) The LORD CTIANCELLOR took his beat on the woolsack art five o'clock. • , Lord D (INGANNON gave notice that to-morrow he would present a petition from Fluchley praying for the -insertion of clauses into the Ecclesiastical Commission - which wotird empower the devoting a portion of . the funds is the hands of the commissioners t>r the en -dotOincintof the two churches of Finchley. He should also , on an early day ask the Archbishop cf Canterbury whe titer he intended to bring in a bill to provide for the re pairs of parsonage-houses ? BERRIES PEERAGE. Lord REDESDALE brought up the repirt of the Committee of Privileges upon the claims cf Mr. Max well to the Herries peerage. The committee were of opinion that .Mr. Maxwell bad made out his claim. • THE AFFAIR OF THE REGINA. CCELLL-THE FRENCH VERSION. The Earl of MALMESBURY said it was his public Jutland a matter of justice to remind their lord-hips of &conversation which occurred in that house on T;urs day last, in consequence of an accaunt received in thi, country of the packet ship Ethiope, on the coast of Africa, having captured the French ship Regina Cceli, which was then in a state cf mutiny, and whose crew had been murdered by the African emigrants on boar 3. He had then guarded himself by saying the.: he had no official information of the matter, but the story, as tol and repeated a week ago in many newspapers, anti by Lord Brougham in that house, was t' this cfft.ct :—That a French emigrant ship, going from the African coat to a French colony in the West Indies, had been risen upcn in the absence of her captain and part of her crew, by some of the emigrants—that 11 Frenchmen had been murdered—that the captain of the Ethiope, at the re quest of the French consul, bad taken possession of her and brought h , r into the port of Monrovia—and that although the captain of the Ethiope had thus acted by desire of the French authorities, two French men-of-war bad come in and taken her off by force. That was the statement made, and he then believed that statement to be correct. Bord BROUGHAM—I said nothing ai-out the French men-of-war at all. Lord Al AL NIESBURY raid that the circumstances so related very naturally created consPerable excitement on the evening in question. Observations were made by several noble lords:on the system of obtaining emigrants from Africa which had been adopted by the French Go verntnehithose obst rvalions b,irg very naturally in duced by the account which was then assumed to be true. But it was only I dr, and a duty which he owed to the French Government (though be bad not been asked to do So), to state to their •ordships what the French offi cial account of those circumstances was. They had been represented to her 111.sjesty's G pvernrnent through the French Ambaesadcr ; and though there had been no hint or request to him to inform their lordships f these circumst ince3,the corsideied it an honourable duty to do so. The noble earl then read the following commu nication " /aria, June 18. "My dear Count,—We first heard from newspapers, both French and foreign of the deplorable scenes which ooeutred on board the Regina Cee!i, on the west coast of Africa. I have just received, and hasten to communicate to you, the report on this affair, which I have received from Lieut. Pointe], chief of the staff, to the captain command ing our naval station in those part. I annex the letter of Mr. Protet and of the commander of Joreo on the subject, in order fully to apprise you of the details of this affair. The facts are briefly these :--The Regina Cceli, a vessel sent to the west coast of Africa, under the command of Captain Simon. with the view to obtain free labourers for our colonies, arrived at Cape de Monte on the the 29th Oct. last. The hief of that place strenuously urged Captain Simon to select for his operations that position of the coast above all others, and they both proceeded to Monrovia, the capital' of Liberia, in order to settle the preliminaries of the affair. • The president of that republic, en:earning Captain Simon's plan, approved of it so highly, that he persuade,' that officer to carry out his operations exclusively in the territory of the Liberian Republic. Capt. Simon hastened to pay into the hands of the local authorities the sum of 1,561 piastres, as passport duty, for the 400 free labourers with whom it had been agreed he shou d be supplied in the space of 40 days. this fact, by the way, conveys a good idea of the value to be attached to the recent protests of the Liberian authorities on the subject of our emigration, and on which the British ambassador at Paris laid such stress in opposit on to our own convictions. Be this as it may, the enlistment of emigrants was carried on with the greatest facility, and the greatest care under the superintendence of the Liberian authorities, as well as of the agent of the French .government. 272 emigrants had already arrived in theroadstead, sand the rest of them were ready to embark, when on the 9th April while the captain and the government agent were ashore, a quarrel arose on board between P. negro cook and one of the emigrants, which caused a scuffle, and ended in a general fight between the emigrants and the crew, in which the second in command of the ship and 11 of his men were massacred by the emigrants. Capt. Simon, who heard this disturbance while on shore, jumped into a canoe, picked up one of his sailors who hal been thrown overboard from the Regina Cceli, but was obliged to return ashore, as his canoe capsized. Upon this Capt. Simon, se slated by the local militia and some 40 Americans whom he hired by the day, attempted to recapture the vessel, and thee cruistd about with two boats, so as in a manner to blockade her. Matters stood thus on the 15th April, when the Ethiope, a merchant steamer, commanded by Captain Croft, arrived. The Ethiope had been sent for by a Mr. Newnham, the British Consul, who also fills the office of French consular-agent at Monrovia. When that steam ves sel neared the Regina Cceli, Capt. Simon, who continued strictletevatching hisown vessel, went on board theEtbiope, declared be was the captain of the Regina Cceli, and asked on what terms he might accept the assistance of the English steamer ; for from the very first he bad declared to Mr. Newnham, in concert with the agent of the FrelicViojernmeet that ire should reject the assistance of the Ethiope unless the conditions on which that assistance was to be elven had been previously settled. He received no answer. The Spanish Vice-Consul for Acra, and a French merchant, who were passengers on board the Ethiope, explained to him that his vessel was being taken possession of. Captain Simon then wished to leave the packet and go on board the Regina Cceli, but was pre vented, seized, and consigned to the charge of two English sailors. Meaewhile the Ethiope took the Regina Cceli in tow, without encountering the slightest resistance from .the emigrants, and proceeded on her voyage. Capt Simon asked the Spanish Vice-Consul for Acra to beg for a delay sufficient to-collect on land eight of his crew, two of whom were wounded ; but Capt. Croft peremptorily re fused, and continued standing towards Monrovia, where she arrived about 8 o'clock at night. The report of Lieut. Pointel respecting this incident contains the following passage : —' Mr. Manuel Leira, of Daroca, the Spanish vice consul, was indignant at the brutal conduct of the captain of the Ethiope, and openly protested against abandoning the eight Frenchmen. He moreover furnished Captain Simon with a certificate to the effect that he was present at the r time that his ship was captured.' On landing at Monrovia, Captain Simon went to the French consular agent (Mr. Newnham), infcrmed him of what had passed, and deli: ered to him a protest against the capture of his ship. On the other hand, the captain of the Ethiope wrote to'.M.r. Newnham pretending to consider the act he bad committed as tantamount to the rescue of a vessel abandoned and adrift in the open sea. The weakness or else the complicity of the Liberian authorities increas d the difficulties of the caso. The insurgent emigrants finished plundering the cargo of the Regin Cceli 'n the very roadstead of Monrovia, notwithstanding the , presence of the purser of the Ethiope, who was left in charge of tl'e ship. They were then permitted to land and dieperse, without even an attempt being made to seize those whom their comrades pointed out as the murderers of 11 of our sailors." He would alio read a letter which had been received from Cap'ain Croft, of the Ethiope :-- "Royal Mail Steamer Ethiope, Monrovia, 15th April, 1858. " Sir,—l have the honour to inform you that, according to your request, dated April 14th, I proceeded Apt ii 14th, at 11 p.m., in search of the French ship Regina Coed, seve ral of the crew of which ship hal been barbarously mur dered by the emigrants on board, who hail afterwards taken possession of the aforesaid ship. 6.30 a ns., April 15.—Arrived at Cape Mount, welt on shore, and ascer tained from the settlers that the ship Regina Cceli had beers seen April 14, at 6 p.m., off Galinas. 8 a.m.—Sighted the Regina Cceli off Galinas drifting about quite unmanage able close to the shore. 9 a.m.—Steamed close alongside the Regina Cceli, at the same time discovered the master of the aforesaid ship in a small boat without gunshot of the pirates. The captain ofthe Regina Cceli informed me in the presence.of several passengers that he had been watching th e aforesaid ship several days, but that the pirates always fired at . i hal when within gunshot, and s h owe d warlike de moastrations to any person or persons attempting to go on board.. 9.15 a.m.—Held a parley with the pirates, who finally-delivered the aforesaid ship, Regina Cceli, over to my charge, upon which I sent my second officer, and seve ral of the crew of the screw steamer Ethiope to take charge as a prize of the afor esa id s t eamer of the Regina Cceli, Ethiope. 9.30 a.m.—Steamed ahead, with the Rgina Cceli in tow for Monrovia. 9.45 a.m.—When catting the anchor on board starboard the prize, the chain of the starboard anchor ran out, which brought the ship up suddenly, car rying away the towing hawser ; sent chief officer and seve• ral seamen on board to weigh the Regina Copies anchor. 10.45. 7 --,Steamed ahead. 7.30 p m., April 15.—Arrived Monrovia all safe with the Regina Cceli, and anchored her off Cape Measured°, with officer in charge. " April 16--Appointed Mr. Mackelvie my agent, and banded the ship Regina Cceli over to him. " A. J. M. CROFT, Mastif of the steamship Ethiope. "J.G.C. L. Ne wn h am , sq." "Signed before me, in my office, at Monrovia, this 16th day of April, 1858. ".J. G. C. L. NEWNHAIf, Her Britannic Majesty's Consul." It was quite evident from the account of the consul and of the captain of the Ethiope, that they did not take pos session of the Regina Cce'i from any feeling of sympathy with the emigrants, for they were looked upon as pirates; but their object clearly was to obtainealvage. The French captain having lost his ship, and not being able to make a favourable bargain fer i(s recovery, preferred watching it until such time as he could make a better bargain. In spite .of this Capt. Croft did take the ship into Monrovia, anti claimed salvage; the French captain prole- ted against being paved— (a laugh)—and refused to pay the salvage. )I.4 ab:lY the Liberi an G overnment had felt itself not strouteerongh to interfere in the matter any further ; avniedwthciefFer..e.pntcihintntth-of.war calling in and adopting the their ow n hand, Simon, they had taken the ship into make was one w hich The only further remark he had to applied to himself. These circum stances showed that,tehr,ev ought never to place implicit belief in the first patty only. Th ey had u n ' a ow ota story coming from one And the French account. Re both the English account that he wee riseJ, and did nut rinderstancimthalleosti:atytliat the Liberian overnment should have be en aummis to have the hip retaken, and should then have dest-ted fr om further .nterference in the matter. He beli eve d that, stood,, we had DO right to interfere with that shi the law Lord BROUGHAM said it *as equally, dangerous 0 give implicit belief to the second as.to the' first atatte s _ ment, for they - were both statements fratn the rennet'. titre sides. (Hear.) flow did it happen that when the lie gine, Cceli was boar4-ech. timtnainacle4 biliito be taken the .emigrants? Did- that- •lidc like free ernigra . ioti% (Rear.) There eould.,ng .be a shadow of- doubt-that these'io.called emigrants aver: slave , Frou2ht down' to be sold for the.puttoeornader the guise of free ernigra- O.a_ :i1 ~•.. s~ 1.6.. • : • , THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, JUNE 25, 1858. tion. (Hear, hear.) It was moat unfortunate that we had not the means of seeing the unofficial accounts that reached France. Several such had reached him, and the statement showed that these uniappy Africans were not free emigrants, but slaves, sold for the purpose. Were there the ordinary circulation of intelligence in France which prevailed here, there would be the means of cor recting these official accounts which carefully avoided the main point at issue— whether force had been used towards these emigrants. (Hear.) There was no ghee tion about the law of nations in this case ; there might be a question of salvage. Undoubtedly, in the presence of the French captain, no other person had a right to take possession of the ship, whatever might be the na ture of her cargo. ,It was said they were free emigrants; and yet the first thing they did was to rise and murder the crew .Was that the way in which our free emigrants to Canada and Nova Scotia acted? There could be very little doubt whatever that these were slaves taken on board against their will, by force and fraud, and that this was a renewal of the African slave-trade. (Hear.) Earl GREY thought further information was required before they could form an opinion. The case originally stated was not entirely set aside by the communications now read. He should be glad if the French Government could prove that these men were emigrants on board the vessel by their own choice ; but should it turn out that they were slaves, regularly purchased and manacled, they were justified by all the laws of God and man in doing what they did to regain their liberLy. In spite of the contradiction now given there were circumstances of great suspicion in the case ; for not only with rega, d to this vessel, but the whole working of the contract, we had information that under this colour a regular slave trade was being carried on, and that wars were set on foot for the purpose of procuring slaves. He believed that if they trusted only to fair means, it would be im possible to obtain emigrants, They ought not to receive the first account against the President of Liberia, but should wait to hear his explanation. He believed that the President had condemned the way in which the French contract was being carried out. It was said that the vessel being a French one an English ship bad no right te take possession of her. But, assuming that the rising was a lawful one, the ship was in possession of the Africans, and the English were justified in giving them any assistance which they required. (Hear.) He hop , ' that the Government would do justice to our own offi cers on the coast. Toe story of the French authorities was so full of inconsistencies that it ought not to be received without confirmation. The Earl of MALMESBURY said a few words in reply, and the subject dropped. THE OATHS BILL. On the order of the day for considering the report t f reasons to be offered to the Commons for the Lords in t-isting on their amendments, The Earl of MAL VIESBURY thought that in the continued absence from indisposition of his noble friend at the head of the Government, it would be better to postpone the subject until that dsy week (Thursday), when the two bills on the same subject wc.utd stand for dismission. Lord CAMPBELL could not help expressing his re gret that the intention still should be entertained of send• ing to the House of Commons reasons why their lordship should adhere to their amendments. He earnestly im plored those who wished for an accommodation of this dispute to consider well whether it would not be better to retain the bid they had in their hands instead of send ing it back to the Commons. The Earl of DESART, on the other hand, regretted the postponement of the reasons. The proposals that wore made were not for a compromise, but for a conces• sion. Even if they were willing to compromise the mat• ter, he thought the proposition ought to come from the other house. But he hoped their lordships would adhere to the principle for which they had so long contended, and would not yieli up to the enemies of Christianity that upon which not only the legislation of the country, but all its laws and institutions, were based. Tne matier was then postponed. INDEPENDENCE OF PARLIAMENT BILL. Lord BROUGHAM, in the absence of Lord Derby, postponed the second reading, of this bill. TRANSFER OF REAL ESTATE BILL. Lord BROUGHAM was understood to say it was the universal opinion, both in their lordships' house and in the country, that something •Oait be done to facilitate the transfer of real property. Some years ago a commit tee had:ilat On this subject, under the presidency of his noble avid lainented friend the late Lord Beaumont, and it had come to the conclusion that the most grievous burden upon land was the costliness of its transfer. Tbat committee had not been without result. He had himself passed a bill founded upon its recommendations, and he had bean assured by the agent of a noble duke that that measure bad effected in one year a saving of between 6,0001. andl,oool. in the management of his lord's estate. Last year he (Lord Brougham) had presented a petition from a gentleman who bad been for many years the ma nager of . a great number of properties, on which a sys tem of describing each by means of a number prevailed. During the last 30 years every one of those proper ties had been sold, mortgaged, or leased, and the ave rage lepgth of the conveyances employed was 190 words and not.more ; nor had a single dispute ever arisen out cf the transference of these estates in the manner he bad described: He (Lord Brougham) wished , to see a similar plan take the place of laws which appeartd to have been devised 'for the express purpose of making land as Ittsla a ;merchantable commodity as was possible. In Ireland, ~the Encumbered Estates Court had no fewer than 2,400 petitions presented to it in the four years ending with 1854. It bad effected 1,448 sales, and the money received bad been no less than 14,105,000/. —so great was the anxiety both of buyers and sellers to obtain the intervention of the court ; of sellers, because they obtained a better price for their land ; and of buyers, because they received the inestimable advattsge of a Parliamentary title. S.• great was the anxiety to obtain the intervention of the court, that all kinds of contrivances were resortei to with that view. Fictitious debts were actually created in order to give the parties a right to petition the court. The object of his (the noble lord's) bill was to institu• e a system of registration ; but considering the late pe riod of the sessioh at which they had arrived, he would not on thi4 occasion press it further. Lord CAMPBELL suggested the establishment of a registration of deeds, coupled with a proviso that no deed which had not been registered should prejudice the rights of any subsequent purchaser of the estate. (Hear.) After some conversation, the order for the second reading of the bill was understood to be discharged. Their I)rdships rose at 25 minutes past 6 o'clock. ROUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY. The SPEAKER took the chair at twelve o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following private bilis were read a third time and passed : —Athenry and Tuam Railway. B rkenhead Improvement Commissioners (Gas and Water), Dublin and Meath Railway, Redditch Railway, and Stockton and Darlington Railway (North Riding Lines). LONDON CORPORATION REFORM BILL. Several petitions were presented by Alderman Cope land, Alderman Cubitt, Lord J. Russel', and Alderman Sir J. Duke, agaicst the London Corporation Reform Bill, especially against the clause that confiscates the revenues of the corporation without compensation. On the motion for going into committee on this bill, Mr. ROLT, consideriog the bill put in peril the rights 'of private and corporate property throughout the king dote, could not accept the report of the committee to whom the bill had been referred, and moved the follow ing resolution :--" That the petition of the Corporation of London against the said bill, which was presented upoe the 28th day of May last, be referred to the com mittee, and that the Corporation of London be heard bv their counsel, agent., and witnesses, before the com mittee on the allegations of such petition." He divided the bill into two parts, one financial the other political. The fluoridel part proposed the simple regulation of taking away a large portion of the revenue of the corpo ration, without compensation, whilst those who received emoluments from the corporation relative to certsio dues, &c., were to be compensated by the corporation out of their remaining revenues. He objected to the bill on the ground that it interfered with the rights of pro perty ; and his definition of the ownership of property was, that they could be maintained in a court of law, or could obtain redress for a wrong inflicted. There was no distinction in law in the enjoyment ofproperty between individuals and corporations, and they ought to consider the question of rnetage, tolls, and duet belonging to the corporation as if they belonged to an individual. The rights of property depended on their universality, and be thought it neither just, wise, or expedient to interfere with them by this bill. The income of the corporation was 100,0001. a year from ;and, and 100,0001, a year from markets, metage, and other tolls. With respect to the 1 00,0001. a year from land, a large portion of that property would soon expire by the running out of lease, acc., and the corporation had very wisely put by for some years 20,0001. a year, and must for some years to come, to obtain a permanent income of 100,0001. a year. Out of the i other I to o l o ls , a OO O., /. yearawnnih w wereere very pai heavy paid for a e r xp . o ens l es of cr.l -1 , year were deducted for drawbacks on property experted, and there were other charges which made the expenses in that department about 3 0,000/.. a-year, so that the corporation had only 70,000/. Alm. from the tolls, and 80,0001. a-year from lands, making t oget h er a b out 150,000/. a-year. And how was that sum expended ? There was a debt of a million secured on the revenue of d d en b i e n e g nefspetern street t e the corporation one-half of whichnd widening in purchasing land for the improvinga the land for which had been dedicat e d to the pub,- lic. The interest of that debt was about 50,000/. a year. The administration of justice in the city amounted to 50,0001. a year, making together 100,000/. a y ear out of the 150,000/. per ann. income. Of the balance, about 12 0001. per annum were spent in city improvements, 10,000/. in church and pensions, and 10,000/. for led dental expenses annually. The last amount might b e considered large, but the house must bear in mind that one year they had to bury a hero ; another year to erect a monument to his memory ; a third to receive with be coming splendour and hospitality our sovereign ; a fourth, a foreign prince. The civil governinent of the city cost about 30,000/. a year, which he thought was not too much for maintaining the hospitality and splen dour of the city. The public had advanced money to the corporation on the security of the revenues, and Parliament ought not to abolish that security upon the good faith of which the money was advanced. All that was asked was for the house to deal with the Corporat ien of London in the same way they dealt with Liverpool, to whom they gave compensation. The rights of property depended upon the universality, and when once acqu'red they no right to investigate this acquisition. The tolls levied on goods corning up the Thames might be ,n abl u withoutt regulationssen d unjust, b ut ho cared not for that: They were in ”ittence, and the owners b a d no r i ght to be clerzived of them political ccompensation. They night ad o pt thr.s back u he tai fi n n ed an i n n ial th p e ar b t il e l f o t r he e b e i l l. ir f gr i s . further consideration. The Oerporation of London ought to be heard. They might strike, if they pleased, but hear them first. There was neither wisdom, justice, or expediency in depriving the corporation of their pro perty. To do so would be an act of confiscation. Mr. CRAWFORD seconded the motion. He said the corporation of London were as anxious as any one to have the corporation placed on a footing with the spirit of the times, but they were averse to the confiscating character of the bill. The bill was read a second time on the understanding that the corporation should be beard against it before a select committee, though the right hon. gentleman the Home Secretary appeared to be of a different opinion. The conviction on the minds of many hon. members was that the bill was to be sent to a select committee after its second reading, and the corporation heard before them Sir G. GREY said there were no rights of property in a corporation the same as in an individual. The muni cipal corporation bill established the principle of dealing with corporate funds without compensation. The best course for the honourable and learned gentle man to have taken would have been to move the committal of the bill this day three months or to have gone into committee, and on these clauses have urged the arguments he bad used in sup port of his motion when they could have been consi dered. If the further progress of the bill was to be delayed, it should have been done by a direct mo tion. He by no means said delay was not neces sary at this period of the season and the state of the Thames—(hear, bear)—for probably delay would be advantageous. He, however, warned the Corporation against imagining that the bill would then be amended in accordance with their wish. It would then in all pro. bability be amended more in consonance with the interests of the public which in many instance were opposed to those of the corporation. (Hear.) He be lieved the result of delay would would be to carry out more folly the valuable recommendation of the Royal Commissioners, and the Corporation of London would then probably re g ret they had not accepted the concession this bill gave them. If the further progress of the bill was delayed, he should consider himself no longer bound by this bill, and he should consider himself freer to act mo •e in accordance with the recommendation of the Royal Commissioners relative to police and other mat ters. (Rear, hear) He considered it was better to go into committee on this bill, and then they could con sider the expediency of the corporation of London being permitted to impose duties on corn after Parliament hai abolished the corn tax. Mr. W. WILLIAMS congratulated the corporation on their having retained the services of one of the most eminent gentlemen at the bar in their defence, with reference to the right of the corporation to levy a tax upon corn Messrs. Coombe, Dalafield, and Co. many years since refused to pay it, and the corporation of London had not the c mrage to go into a court of law and enforce it. He denied that the corporation of London bad borrowed a million of money without having the most ample means of paying it off by the interest of the property in which it was invested or by the imposition of local taxes. The only sum borrowed without these advantages wag 92,000/. for the building of Holloway prison. The At torney-General entered into many details connected with the income and expodenture in comparison vfi.h the Governmental expenditure of a similar character. He would support delay if there was a probability of the re commendation of the Royal Commissioners being carried out, and believing it might be accomplished by agreeing to the motion, he would vote for it. Mr. S. WORTLEY had strong objections both to the principle and the details of the bill. Recalled attention to the improvements the Corporation of London had effected, and urged they were entitled to greater consi deration than they had hitherto received, The bill in its present shape was undoubtedly a violation of the rights of property. He suggested that the clauses which affected the property of the corporation should be postponed until some arrangement should to made, with the corporation. After some remarks from Mr. W. MARTIN, Mr. WALPOLE contended it was a waste of time to discuss the details of the bill now. It would be better to go into committee, where they could be better con sidered, and if necessary amended. The coal tax ought not to be discussed now, because it formed no part of the bill. (Hear, hear.) He thought they should deal leniently and liberally to the corporation, and he denied that there was any attempt to act towards them in an off-band manner. The bill was just to the corporation and to the public, and if it were delayed it might next session assume a shape less advantageous to the corpora tion. (Hear.) Sir B. HALL asked the hon. and learned member for West Gloucester if he intended to press his motion to a division ? Mr. ROLT Yes. Sir B. HALL said he regretted the hon. and learned member had decided on adopting that course. He dissented from the principles laid down by the hon. and learned member for West Gloucester. Scarcely five years since, when Sir C. Wetherell was in opposition, he used the same argument on the Municipal Reform Bill as the hon. and learned member for West Gloucester bad used on this . ; occasion, but he (Sir B. Hall) need not remind the house that the predictions of that day bad not been verified. He hoped if this bel stood the Government of. the day would oeneider it to be their duty to bring in a bill founded strictly on the report of the Royal Commissioners of 1853. Mr. S. WARREN believed that in the present state of affairs matters were not ripe for an investigation and decision by that house. The bill in its present form was downright confiscation. It attacked the rights and foundation of property and menaced the sanctity of pro perty whether that of corporations or private persons. The question before the house was, wbether they would compel the Corporation of London to E u it to the going into committee on a bill that deprived them of the greatest portion of their property, before the cor poration had had an opportunity of being fully heard before a competent tribunal. lie thought the house ought not to adopt such a course. Mr. LOWE considered the rights of property in cor poration ought to b.) respected, and not taken from them except under paramount circumstances. Lord J. RUSSELL consid red the right of metage ought to be abolished, and the question of compensation was a grave one. He had no wish to dispose of those rights in a summary manner, and he thought it should be reserved, with that of the coal duties, for future con sideration. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the corporation, when they abolished the street tolls, recognised the right of interference with the other tols and duties. The rights and privileges possessed by the Corporation were given, not to the few inhabitants who now lived within a cer tain boundary called the City of London, but tor public purposes, to the whole of the metropolis of the British empire. Mr. J. T. MORRIS d d not object to the passing of that portion of the bill rela'ive to the political change, but be was no' prepared to purchase it at the expense of the confication of the revenue of the corpora ion. The question of the whole of the metropolis being ad mitted to the privileges and rights of the corporation had nothing to do with the proposed interference wi.h the rights of property, on the security of which large sums of money had been advanced for the benefit of the cit'zms and the public generally. At 10 minutes to lour o'clock the debate was ad j turned by the forms of the hose. The sitting was then sulponded. The house resumed at six o'clock. ALLOWANCE TO WITNESSES. Mr. POWELL asked the Secretary of State for the florae Department whether Government intended to publish a more liberal table of allowances to wit nesses at sessions and assiz?s, and whether such table would be published so early as to be made use of at the approaching a-sizes acd sessions ; also, whether Govern ment intended to propose a more liberal scale of fees for solicitors who were engaged in conducting prosecutions ? Mr. WALPOLE said the table of fees now in force must continue until the commissioners made their reprt. While the commissioners were pursuing their inquiry he thought it would be inadvisable to make any change. THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL. In reply to Lord GODERICH, Mr. WALPOLE said that if the bill did not come on that evening it would be taken on Tuesday at a morn ing sitting, REGISTERING OF JUDGMENTS IN IRELAND. Mr. S. B. MILLER asked the Attorney-General for Ireland whether his attention had been called to the re cent decisions in the Courts of Queen's Bench and Com mon Pleas in Ireland, with respect to the defects in the form of the affidavits generally adopted for registering judgments on mortgages in Ireland, and whether it was his intentioa to bring forward any legislative measure during the present seesion in consequence of such de cisions. Mr. WHITESIDE bad seen the decisiOn referred to. He understood property to the value of about a milion was affected by it. He intended to introduce a bill to remedy the defect as soon as possible. ments bet Ween the commissioners 'and the parties from whom they had purchased the rand. These sprung mainly from the voluntary assent of the parties ; they ought to be left on the same basis, and not be made the subject of a statutory restriction. 'lt appeared to him that it would be an anomaly, objectionable in principle and inconvenient in practice, to take the land out of the position in which it now stood. Mr. T. BARING said that if the arrangement be tween the Government and the commissioner bad con tinued on the same f3oting there would have been no necessity for a statute ; but as that had been altered they ought to give a legal recognition to what was now merely a moral recognition. Mr. S. HEBERT supported the amendment. The house perhaps was not aware that at present the barrack accommodation was 1.000 short of the number of men actually in London. The question of the amendment, however, did not depend merely on the barracks. The partnership was now about to be dissolved ; and ought the Government to preclude themselves from using the land for any public purpose? It was said there was a moral obligation, but he could not see what was the moral obligation in a legal conveyance. The proprietors did not sell the land to promote science and art, but to get a good price. If they wanted to promote that pur pose they ought to have given the land for nothing. Mr. KINNAIRD entirely concurred in what had f alien from the right boo. gentleman who had just eat down, and thought the arrangement made by the Go vernment was a very improvident one for the national interests. Mr, COWPER thought the question bad not been quite fairly stated by the opponents of the clause. Twelve acres of land were given up by the commis sioners to the Government for the purpose of building a museum and schools. The land was disposed of simply 'for the promotion of science and art, and it would not in his opinion be right for Parliament to authorise its ap plication to any other object. Lord ELCHO said be bad previously expressed an opinion t.) the effect that the land land should be retained f it any public purpose, and more especially for the erec tion of barracks, but subsequent reflection had convinced him that it ought to be applied only to the purposes of science and art. Mr. HOPE did not see why the Government should be tied down in the manner provided for in the bill. Mr. SLANEY opposed the atnendmen. The house then divided For the amendment Against it Majority against it ---45 On the motion'ef Mr. J. WILSON, an amendment was then introduced;with the assent of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEYIIER, leaving it to the Government (as was understood) to apply the land to purposes connected with science and art. Other verbal amend' enfs in accordance with this having been agreed to, the bill was ordered to be re ported on the following day. GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (No. 3) BILL. Mr. BARING presented a petition against any change in the form of government of India from inhabitants of Cheltenham—(a laugh)—many of whom bad served in India, and still bad interests connected with that country. Lord STANLEY, in moving that the bill should be read a second time, said,—Considering that this house has been engaged from the beginning of February last up to the present time, though not quite without interrup tion, in discussing—not indeed an India bill, but all the leading provisions which must be introduced into any bill for the government of India, I think it will as gladly be dispensed from hearing as I shall be from offering any very protracted comment upon the measure which I have now to bring under its notice. I entertain that opinion the more confidently because, although it is impossible to hope or even to desire that any measure involving interests of such vast importance should, pass through this house without ample discussion and full inquiry, the majority of .points upon which dif ference of opinion is likely to arise may be more pro perly discussed when the bill is in committee than upon the second reading. The details are for the committee to consider; its principle is that which the house has already on several occasions agreed to, and of affirming which it is not likely to recede, notwithstanding that appeal against the danger of such legislation at a critica l period, and in . favour of the postponement of any per manent measure which we have just heard urged by one who has so much right to speak on this question. The principle of this bill I understand to be the transfer of the government of India from the Company to the Crown, the administration of Indian affairs by a respon sible Minister, with the proviso that that Minister shall be assisted by a council. As to the details, it seems to me that I had better go through them very briefly, but in so doing I shall simply explain what it is that we pro pose. and shall not stop to vindicate it by any long or elaborate arguments. The point on which it is likely that the discussion will mainly turn is the consti tution and functions of the council. In this bill we propose to adopt the nubaber of members which was the other day approved by the Cone miitee—yiz , 15. Besides the fact of that number hav ing met the approval of the Committee there are various reasons why it should be adopted by the house, The number of those who are at present engaged in discharg ing the somewhat analogous functions of carrying oil the Indian bu-iness is 18. Nov, if at any future time we find that the business which devolves upon these gen tlemen can be performed by a similar number, it will be easy to come to Parliament for a further limitation, and to carry it out by the simple expedient of declining to fill up the next few vacancies which may occur. It would not, however, improve our reputation for consistency if, after baying reduced the number from 18 to 12, or even a smaller number, we were afterwards to find that the business was too heavy for them :to get through, and were to bo compelled to rtrace our steps, to reverse our decision, and to revert to a number which we had previously declared to be unnecessarily large. (Hear, bear.) There is also a circumstance connected with the tenure of office by these gentlemen which renders it desirable not to keep the number down to the lowest point. On considerations which have already been partly discussed, and which it will be my duty again to submit to the house to-night, the Government has decided to propose that the members of Council shall hold their offices for life. Now, it is quite clear that under those circumstances you must make provision for the possible event of some small ►umber of them being at some future time no longer as well fitted f,r the active performance of their duty as they were at the time of their appoint meet. Further, I conceive that if the independence of the Council be, as this House has hitherto during these discussions held it to be, a matter of no slight moment, that independence will be more effectually secured when the Council is so extended that even of those members nominated by the Crown no elinieter can probably have recommended the appointment of a majority, or of mere than a small portion. Therefore, in order to secure effi ciency as an additional guarantee for independence, and in consequence of the vote of the Committee the other night, we propose that the number of members of which the Council shall consist shall be 15. (Hear, hear.) To the manner of their choice, which was explained on a former occasion, I will now only briefly revert. We propose that in the first instance 7 out of the 15 shall be elected by the Court of Directors from those who are or have been members of their own body., In adopting that course we are following, or rather extending, a precedent which was set in the Act of 1853; and, considering the inconvenience which arises in the conduct of any business, more especially in the conduct of business on so extensive a scale as that of India, feoca- any break or defect in offi cial tradition, considering the difficulty of working new machinery with new men, I think that the House will feel that on that ground, as well as on account of their personal ability and efficiency, it is desirable that in any council to be constituted there should be a considerable portion of those who now form the Court of Directors. (Hear, hear.) We propose that the prccess of election should precede that of nomination ; that the election of these seven members by the Court of Directors should take place within 14; and the nomination of the re mainder within 3() days after the passing of the A ct, so that it may rest with the Crown to decid e whether, after the election has been made, there remain any members of the Court of Directors who ought to be eeleeted as its nominees. There is another reason why it seems conve nient to take that course. I think the house is inclined, and just'y eo, to share in that jealousy of the power and patronage of the Crown which has been expressed by the right boo. member for Oxford University. I can well understand an objection being entertained by many persons to the creation by the Crown alone of 15 officers of high dignity and considerable emolument. Now, if the election of half the Council is left in the hands of the Directors, the amount of patronage at the disposal of the Crown is so far limited, and the danger to which I have referred is avoided. (Hear.) With-regard to the manner in which vacancies should be filled up, or in other words the permanent con.• stitution rf the Council, wo propose to adhere to the proposition which we laid down last week before the committee—viz., that of nomination by the Crown and election by the Council for alternate vaaanciee. (Hear.) I have beard thattlescribed as a complicated mode of proceeding. I cannot presume to j edge what is consi dered to be complicated by some hon, gentlemen, but it appears to me that a more simple mode of, or one more Wee from that complication and embarrassment which certainly would arise if there were what I may call a double election—a submitting of names by ens autho rity and an acceptance of them by another--cou'd hardly be conceived. (Hear,) Although my object at present is rathereto explain _than to vindicate the proposit ens which Yee hai - e ventured to submit' to the house, yet we have heard ;to nspch of the danger of self-election, and of the abuses which areie from it in former times and under different circumstances, that I think it right to state that eyvry argument- to whichl have listened upon 7 :true. that subject has borne a reference not to the principle of self-election as applied to the constitution of some one part of a particular body, but to the principle of self election when regarded as the only means by which en trance into such a body could be obtained. (Hear.) If you were to open only one door into the Council—if you were to say that no person could enter it except by the pleasure of a majority of that body as it was already constituted, and consequently that no person could enter it who did not share the opinions of the majority—l could well understand that under such a system the grossest abuses would be likely to arise, and that the opinion which once gained the upperhand would be likely permanently to retain its predominance. But in the present case we propose a mutual check, a mutual control ; we propose that the Indian know ledge and experience of those who constitute a ma jurity of the Council should be brought to bear in the selection of new members, while, at the same time, the Crown will exercise that check which it ought to possess upon the inconvenience which would arise if every vacancy were filled up according to the principle of sel;-election. (Hear.) It is said, again, that what we call election is really nomination in disguise. If I entertained that view, the present is not a scheme which I should venture to propose. In the first place, I do not think that because men are themselves nominees, therefore they are to be taken as having no will, no judg. went, no independence of their own, but as willing, whatever their term of office, whatever their personal eminence or character, to fulfil the pleasure of the Minis ter by whom they were first appointed. (Hear.) I do not think that is a danger likely to arise in any case, but it is a danger still less likely to arise when, as iu the pre sent instance, even the nominated members of the Coun cil will he the creation, not of one, but of many succes sive Ministries. (Rear.) If lam told that the proposed self. election is virtually to abandon that elective princi ple which the house has sanctioned, my answer is that we were willing —we are willing—to introduce the elec tive principle upon a wider scale if it were only possible to find a fitting and satisfactory constituency. (Rear.) I believe that to have recourse to the method of election as a way of appointment to the Indian Council is the first idea which has entered the mind of every person who has considered the subject. (Hear.) The difficols which all persons on further consideration have felt is that of con stituting a constituency which would answer the purpose. We have been told that we should have retained matters as they are, and gone back to the' Court of Proprietors. I have nothing to say against the ladies and gentlemen who constitute that proprietary body, but I do say that they do not possess any special Indian knowledge, and that even their interest in the good conduct of Indian affairs is indirect and remote. Although it might possi bly be expedient to oontinue them when they were found in existence as part of a system which you wished to modify by degrees, yet it is a different thing to say, when you are recasting the system altogether, that you will reintroduce into it that which has always been justly considered as one of its most anomalous eleinents. (Hear.) We take the resolution to which the committee came the other eight as conveying the sense in which it was un doubtedly understood by many of those who voted for it. We believe that those also supported the resolution did so, not having reference to any special e mstituency which was in their minds, but from a desire to protest by their votes against the exclusive and uncontrolled right of appointment being vested in the Crown. (Hear,' hear.) I was always of opinion that if the Court of Pro prietors were to to retained at all, it should be so with large additions and extensions. lam free to confess, however, that every day's experience has convinced me more and more that the creation of a constituency com posed of those who are connected with works cf an in dustrial character in India—for example, the sharehold ers in railways and other undertakings of that kind— would be to introduce into the Council an element to which some objection might be taken. (Rear.) I say so upon this ground, that whereas a constituency for the election of an Indian Council should in its essence be an elective body only, and should not involve any idea of representation, there is a danger that persons connected with particular undertakings would bind those whom they elected to act as the representatives, not of India or of England, but of the particular concerns in which they were interested, and to push forward those un ter• takings often, no doubt, to the disadvantage of other eotks equally pressing and important. (dear, hear.) Such ate the reasons which have induced us, objecting to the principle of excfa s i v e nom i nat i on , an d desiring to carry out the resolution to which the committee came the other night, to do so by the particular machinery which we now propose. With respect to the proposal of ten years' service or residence in India as a qualifi cation for a majority of the Council, I have heard it ob jected to upon two grounds. The complaint has been made frequently and publicly, but by those who cannot have read the bill, that the practical effect of it must be to limit the Council to the Indian civil and military services. Now, that is obviously not the case. (Hear, hear.) . On the other hand, I have heard the objection raised, that to introduce into the Council to the extent of nearly a half men who have no special In dian knowledge or experience would be to turn it to purposes for which it was not intended. My reply is, that in stating that a majority of the Council ought to be men having Indian experience, our object is, in the first place, to lay down a general principle, and then to establish a maximum beyond which the number of mem bers not connected with India should not in any case extend. We have no objection to the introduction of even a larger proportion of those who have special In dian experience (Hear.) I have received a communi cation from the chairman and deputy-chairman of the Court of Directors, stating that the number of those qualified by service or residence in India should be two thirds instead of one-half. (Hear, hear.) We are ready to entertain that proposition, and to discuss it fairly in committee ; and certainly my own belief is that, whe ther it be expedient to put such a proviso into the act or not, an Indian Council, to be properly constituted, ought to contain that proportion of men of Indian expe rience and knowledge. (Rear.) There is one provision which has been much canvassed, and on which, no doubt, there is room for great difference of opinion —I mean the prohibition against members of the Council serving in Parliament. It may be to many men an object of ambi tion to fill at the same time the position of a member of Parliament and that of a member of the Council, and I do not think that the mere objection that the whole time of a member of the Council is required ought to weigh with us in deciding that point, because, if it applies to a mem ber of the Council, it ought a fortiori to apply to a Se cretary of State and to all those who are carrying on, with much more labour to themselves, the ainnuistrative business of the country. Tbat is not the objection, there fore, upon which I shall rely in maintaining the prohibi tion to which I have altuded. But it seems to us, consi dering the close and confidential position in which these gentlemen will be placed with respect to the Minister, considering also the frequency of Indian discussions in this house, that any man who by his office was a c league of the Minister in the Council, and who might at the same time be an opponent of the Minister in Parliament, would stand in two situations inconsist ent one with the other, and singularly unsatisfactory as regards him-elf. The tenure of office we 'propose is a tenure for life. We have considered what objections might arise to varicus kinds of tenure. Ido not Cent?' that all are liable to some objections. a short term were proposed, with the power of reelection, then the independence of at least the nominated members would be entirely destroyed ; and if the members were ap pointed for;,a long term, then, though the difficulty T have just mentioned would be get rid of, another would arise, for men advanced in years and infirm in health might continue in office for one uniform period. On the whole I think that the objections against a tenure for life are less considerable than against any other tenure. We propose, with a view of facilitating retire ment, that a retiring pension shall be allowed on a large sod lihrral scale. The Salaries of the members will be 1,2001. a-year each, and after ten years' service the re tiring pension will be 5001. a-year, and after 15 years' service 8001., or two-thirds of the whole salary, after which no further increase will take place. In the matter of a retiring pension it is clear that there are two oppo site dangers against which it is necessary to guard. It there should be a retiring pensioa after a short term of years, then you run the risk of what might be called jobbing—namely, of members bring induced to retire after a very short service to make room for others. If, on the one hand, the retirement is to take place after a long-: xtendod service, then you induce men to hold on after their services are no longer valuable. It is nece-- sary to strike the balance, and we propose to s t r ik e it in the manner I hav e explained ; and, whatever retiring allowances should be slotted to the members of the council, it is desirable that they should be entitled to claim them as a matter of right, and not as a matter of favour. With respect to the salaries we do not desire to measure the importanceof the office created by the amount of salary assigned. Those who have served in India, and have retired from that service, generally retire upon a retiring allowance calculated upon a liberal scale ; and the amount of the salary assigned to the members of Council is intended much more as a compen sation to those gentlemen for the additional expense con sequent on the necessity of permanently residing in London than as an equivalent in money for the services they are asked to render. In the clauses which follow, matters arising out of the amalgamation of the two offices in Cannon-row and Leadenhall-street are dealt wit 4. It may be convenient to mention, though it could not well be inserted in the bill, what is the course of proceeding we intend to adopt with respect to the transaction of business. The whole Indian question may be divided among six committees with two members of Council in eache assisted by a head clerk and the establishment. We propose that all correspondence, with an exception here after to be named, shall originate in these committees, and be sent up to the Secretary of State. If the corre spondence is judged by the committees, in the first in stance, or by the Secretary of State, to be of sufficieet importance to be laid before the whole Council, it will be in the power of either of the committees or of the Secre tary of State to submit it to the whole Council ; and we merely decline to state that all the business should be brought before the whole Council, as such a de claration would have the effect of encumbering the whole Council with a mass of routine details. I have heard a complaint that no provision is made for the meet ing of the Council at regular and stated periods. I think that that is a reasonable objection, and therefore, when t t o h e t h b e i Il e ff g s o c e t s unless prevented by urgent necessity. (Hear, hear) t i h n a to t t c h o e m e m ou itt n e c e i , i I sh pr o o u p ld os m e t e o et in o s n e e i e t a a clause , shallTo n h l at only i r s me ae t e o s to e na at t , w t hl b ey a a t s e o dn r r u de e ari a al te e l kp h : e t that o etabti the ;p arCno provision i u s n ito c h n i t ! o s in the bill was that by attempting to settle matters of detail by Act of Parliament we run the ri k of tying ourselves down to minute arrangements, convenience t C hwo o hw u i u n h c f a i spracticalahut i d i 1 fi act n a e axtiphreaiarntiC.gellnseelnekTs sense n o e n i gi sgh the uet s Ministertinohd afterwardstne ae v d e r ae e sd t a: of the t e e showh l t e n a h n t e t p h: G t i a luh n b ec i k e :, . that u th i o s n h t o h u a s t e point the be intention debates vernment. The object is, that the Council should have a moral influence and control ; that the Minister's de cision should be, as it is practically now, final on all matters, but that all the members of Council should be empowered to publicy and formally protest, and if they disapprove of the course taken by the Minister they may compel him to record his reasons in writing. But lam convinced that there is much more danger of a Minister leaning too much on his Council than neglecting their advice. All the habits, tendencies, and ideas of English life are such as utterly to discountenance public men desiring to assume to themselves authority and respon sibility beyond that which is imposed on them. I think I am not %%rung in saying that a far more prevalent dan ger is that of their desiring to shift responsibility and to throw it on others. So far from public men seeking to extend their powers, it is much more likely that they would endeavour to develops part of their powers on others. The arrangements I have stated will insure the necessity of all business, with one exception hereafter to be named, or - ginating with these committees, where it will be dealt with by two members of Council for each committee, while any business of importance would afterwards be submitted to the whole Council. I have referred to a single exception, which after much doubt and hesitation we thought it necessary to make, and it consists in that which relates to the business now nomi nally transacted by the Secret Committee. I say "nominally," because we have beard it again and again publicly asserted that the Secret Committee is a delu sion, and that the real power is actually vested in the President of the Board. A , regards this part of the question, there were three courses which might have been adopted—either to throw open the whole business with• out exception to the whole Council, or to elect tvo or three members to constitute a secret committee, or to vest a power in the Minister to deal with cer tain matters on his own responsibility. The objec. tion to the first course is, I think, obvious. The practical effect of throwing open all the business to the council would be to produce considerable delay in cases of emergency. The second course, that of creating a Secret Committee, who without the power of controlling should have the right of being consulted by the Minis ter, appears very objectionable. If the Minister were to choose the members of the Secret Committee, then the check on him would be practically illusory ; and if the Secret Committee were to be appointed by the Council, then there woul be this inconsistency—that the Minis ter would be compelled to accept as colleagues those with whose selection he has nothing to do. The plan we have to propose is to vest the right in the Minister, in case of necessity, to deal with a certain class of busi ness on his own authority. It seems to be an anomaly and something worse, if you greatly increase the respon sibility of the Minister to greatly diminish his power. Though the bill does not make it compulsory on the Minister to create a Secret Committee, it is optional for him to do so ; but the bill leaves him the power to trust to those in IN born he has confidence ; and any man, how ever wild and rash, would shrink from that vast increa-e of responsibility which be would necessarily acquire if, knowing that he is provided with councillors in whom he might confide, he in any great emergency acted with out reference to them. In one word, though theme may be occasions when it may be necessary for a Minister to act on his own authority, yet, in my judgment, those oc• casions ouaht to be rare and exceptional. If a Minister were habitually, and in cases not urgently requiring secrecy, to act upon his own authority, and without con sulting his Council—that is to say, if he were to extend his authority beyond its present limits, through the me dium of the Secret Committee, that would be not only a gross abuse of ibis power, but a violation of the spirit and meaning of the Act. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the question of finance, it was provided in the bill of the noble lord (Palmerston) that no increase of ex penditure should take place without the consent of four members of the Council. In omitting that provision we certainly did not do so from ignorance of the perils which may arise if an uncontrolled discretion of increas ing expenditure be conferred upon a minister, nor from any desire to assume that power to ourselves. But it appeared to us that such a provision was totally inade quate fur the purpose aimed at. We thought a check of that nature would he illusory rather than reel, cud that being illusory, it would serve only as a screeo, and would prevent the appliea' ion of that other and more efficient kind of control upon which we rely. It seemed to us that the object would be better attahtied by that on which I think Parliament has a right to insist, and which Parlia ment has in its own bands to secure—namely, the regu lar, the periodical, and the minute publication of Indian accounts. (Hear.) Moreover, it will be borne in mind that both by the bill of the noble lord and by that the contents of which I am now stating, any rn'enaber of the Council has the power of protesting formally against arty measure to which he is opposed. Now, undoubtedly, finance would never be comprised in the class of busi ness which would require secrecy. Tile Council must be consulted upon it. Any member, as I have said, has the power of protesting. If Parliament chooses to call for such protest it may easily be made public, and in that manner there is, as it seems to me, a far more real and effectual control than could be given by a mere provision that no increase of expenditure shall take place unless the minister has the support of four members of a coun cil, some of whom are named by himself. With regard to those important provisions in the bid which deal with the Indian army, there is one point on which I think it right to make a clear statement, because lam afraid it is not very clearly set forth in the bill. I noticed only to day that one of the clauses relating to this subject was drawn in rather an obscure manner. Now, we propo e that. the civil service of India shall, as before, remain open to competition, and in addition to that we propose wholly and uorevrvedly to open to competition what are called the scientific branches of the military service. As to the other cadetships—those in the non-scientific branch of the service—we propose that a small propor tion, one-tenth, should ge to t aas of civil or mili tary servants in India who may be considered deserving of that privilege. To the remaining military patronage we have applied as nearly as possible the precedent of the state of things which now prevails. In dealing with this branch of the subject our general wish was to continue for the present, with as few modifications as possible, the system which now exists. I say for the present, be cause it appears to us, as it has probably appeared to all who are interested in Indian affairs, that circumstances wholly independent of those measures which are before the hou-e— wholly independent of the course of legiele tion which we have been pursuing during the present session—independent, I may almost say, of the question of the continuance of the Company, may require au en• tire reorganisation cf the Indian army, or at all events the native portion of it. Now, any attempt at this mili tary reorganisation would be fur the present premature; and we therefore propose that the whole subject should be investigated by means of a commission, to consitt of 12 members—three of these members to be officers of the Indian army, three of them officer's of the Queen's army who have served in India, three to be civilian gentlemen of eminence, and the remaining three official peisonagte who are principally concerned in this matter, viz , the Commander-in-Chief, the Secretary of State for War, and the President of the Marti of Control. To that commis sion, so constituted, we intend to refer an it quiry, the heads of which include the relative proportions of the European and the native force, the question whether the European army should be local or one for general service, whether exchanges from one branch to another are cos clhl.a, and generally on whatterms the transfer .f the Com pany's army to the Crown should take place. Pending that inquiry it is not our wish to anticipate the re,ult which may flow from it ; but this I say freely and ear nestly, that I am certain Perliainen will censent to no arrangement—and I can answer for the Government that they will consent to none—which, however plausible or convenient it reigat appear, should have the effeett of render n,g• entrance into, or promotion in, the Indian army more difficuit than it now is to talent and to merit unaided by patronage, or wh:c'e should introduce into that army Parliamentary or ter influences injurious to its efficiency. (Cheers.) The whole question, however, must necessarily come before Parliament again, and, until it does, our object is to maintain things nearly as they are at present, with such modifications only as may relieve us from the necessity of making further altera tions without full and ample time for consideration. (Hear, hear.) Thera is one clause in the hill, the 29th, which we find both in the noble lord's bill and in that introduced by the present Government. I mean the provision which vests in the Governor-General the appointment of the members of the council in India. I cannot but admit that that proposition, aithough on the one hand it was capable of defence, has on the other hand been received with apprehension and alarm by many persons whose opinions on such a subject are en titled to the highest consideration. (Hear, hear.) They argue that a Governor-General or the Governor of a Presidency even at present has a very large and on limited power in his hands, and that it would be dangerous to increase that power by mating his col leagues in the Council depe n dent on his will. (Hear.) I du not propose to abandon the clause, but I wish to say distinctly that I have retained it in the bill only in order that it may receive a full and fair discussion, we holding ourselves at liberty, if the sense of the house and the judgment of those best conversant with the sultect should be adverse to our proposal, to reconsider, and if necessary, to alter the clause. (Cheers.) With respect to the question of finance, as I apprehend that will be fully discussed in committee, I shall say nothing more at present than that I have heard nothing which has led me to believe that those whose fortunes depend upon the security of Indian finance will hav e th a t secur i ty in any the slightest degree diminished. (Hear, hear.) There is a provision in the bill for sending out a com mission to investigate the financial state of India Now, I believe that such an inquiry i s very necessary and very advisable ; but it has been urged with great force that any investigation of that kind ought to come through the Governor-G enera l ; t h at it ought to take place with his sanction, in deference to his au thority, and should not, se it were, b e a power set up to check and control him. (Hear, h ear. ) O n t h at groun d I shall withdraw the clause in question, and communicate with the Indian Government as to the best method by which the same End may be attained, (Hear, hear.) These are the pro v i s i ons o f the bill. I will onl say in ?encluteon that I thi n k we run some risk of exaggerats sag the importanc e f or goo d cr for evil of legi.letion of this kind carried on in this house. What we call a bill for the future Government of India is really only a bill to provide what we believe will be a inure effective mea sure for supervision and control at a distance of the Go vernment of India. No doubt effective supervision and control are valuable and even indispensable ; hut, do what you will here, the real stress, the real pressure will be upon the Government in India---(boar, hear)—and even there, where the pressure is greatest, I believe the Government of India must depend, not upon any icge hious machinery which you cnn contrive - for its worS ine, but upon the living energy of able and wilhchoseu men whom you must, to meet the varying and ur.fere een circumstances which will from time to time ,rise, invert with large authority, and to whom you must give an ample and a generous confidence. (Beer.) Ido net propose this bill as a measure to remedy all the abused and grievances of which complaints have been made with regard to our Indian administration. I propose it sinspll for what it is—as a reform which, I believe, will lead to other reforms—(hear, bear)—and without which th ee° other reforms could not be so easily or couveniently carried out. I propose it as is necessary and desira ble simplification of a system of government which all persons acknowledge to be complicated and cumbrous and es the rectification of an anomaly which has en• dured too long, and which at the present day can serge no useful purpose. I propose it as the substitution for a provisional form of government of a more permanen t and I believe, more salutary form of administration, an d as a measure which will vest the government of tha t great dependency of England, India, in the English Crown, and will place it under the direct authority of English Minister, responsible to this house and to lbe, public opinion of E ng l an d. (Ch eers .) Th e no bl e lord concluded by moving that the bill be read a second tiaie. Mr. BRIGHT did not rise for the purpose of opposivg the second reading of the bill. On the contrary, if and hon. member thought proper to divide thebause he wou4l vote with the noble lord. He must say, however, rb et there were a gm d many clauses in the bill to which be entertained serious objections. Some of them would, b e hoped, be amended as the bill passed through commi t ' tee ; tut if that were not the case be could only lor e that, as the Bill of 1853 was abandoned in 1853, within the next five years the House of Commons would take s )me further steps with regard to this question, withthe view of simplifying the government of India as carried on in England. He wished to take this opportunity ° I making some observations upon the general question of Indian government, which it might have been out of place to make during the discussion of the various roar lotions that had been agreed to by the house. He though t it must have struck every hon. member that, while two Governments had proposed great changes with regard to the government of India, ne good case had really been made out for such changes in the speeches of the noble lord and the right hon. gentleman by whom those bills had been introduced. (Hear, and a laugh,) That opinion, he knew, would meet with a response from two or Three hon. gentlemen on that (the Opposition) side of the house' (Hear.) It had occurred to him when the noble lord e t „ the head of the late Government i n t ro d uce d hi s he made the observation when the present Chancel' !or of the Exchequer brought forward his measure . "' that if the house knew no more of the question than they learned from the speeches of those right hon. gen" tlemen they could not form any clear nation why it wa s proposed to overthrow the East India Company. Vs boncurable member for Guildf or d (M r . M eng l ee ) had expressed a similar opinion several times during the pro• gress of the discussion. The tight honourable man' her for Carlisle had said that the East India COn' pany was dealt with in the manner in which animals in" tended for sacrifice were treated in Eastern countri es and ancient times,—that they were decked with garlands when they were led out for immolation. That was true; but it did not therefore follow that the house eves quite, right in the course it wa s t a ki ng . It mus t b e c l ear the' , the moment the House of Commons met this session there was only one course which the then Governmen t could adopt with reference to this question. A feeling wasted throu g h ou t tb e country —h e b e li eved he ni'gh' say it was universal—that fur a long time past the g e. , vernment of India had not been a good government' that grave errors—if not grievous crimes—had bee° committed in that country. lie thought the conscienc e of the nation had been touch e d on t hi s question, and they came by a leap, as it were—by an irrepressible stinct to the conclusion that the East India Compol must be abolished, and that another and, as the n ation hoped, a better government should be established for that country. There was a general impression, arising from past discussion in Parliament, that the i n ,' dustry of the people of I n di a h a d b een gr i evo usl neglected ; that there was grea t reason for cocatilairl, wit h respect to the admi n i s t ra ti on o f j us ti ce ; an d that with regard to the wars enterer into by the Indian Go vernment there was much of which the people of Eng; land bad neeson to be asamed. (Hear,) It was said tb e. these faults were to be attributed to the B iard of Cnn . trol ; but he (Mr. Bright) had never d e f en d e d t h e B o er' of Control. He believed everything the East lud,i e Company had said of the Board of Contr. I—to its di e ' credit—(a laugh.) —and he believed that everything the Board of Control had said t o th e di scre dit o f t h e East India C impany was perfectly true. (Cheers and laugh' ter.) He hoped his ho n . f r i en d (Ur. Mangles) would not require any further expr ess i on o f op i n i on upon OP point. (A laugh. Tnere was also a general impress 0a that the expenditure of the East India Government WO excessive, and it had been proved before more than one committee that the taxes imposed upon the people of Indic were onerous to the last degree. These subjects waredi e ' cussed in 1853, at which time, in his opinion, the chang e now proposed ought to h ave b een e ff ec t e d . S u b s equentlf a the calamitous events of 1857 and 1858 occurred, av the nation came at once to the conclusion—a conduit ° which ho thought no disinterested person could resist -a' that it was impossible that India and its vast populatio n could any lenger be retained under the form of go vet went which had existed up to thi s p er i o d. If , t h e n, e change was inevitable, the question was how it should b: accomplished and what should be done. He thought i d was quite clear the course the noble lord had pursue was right—viz., that of insisting that d ur i ng thi s Pr e ,i sent session, and without delay, th e f oun d at i on o f s .l ` reform in the government of India should be commence at home, because they could no t t a k e a s i ngle step v":.; regard to any real and permanent, improvem en t in tr, Indian government until th e y re f orme d w h at he might call the basis of that government by the changes effected In this country. What, then, was the change which 0 8 proposed, and which ought to be made ? For his ow n part, in considering these questions, he could not alt o ' gether approve the bill now b e f ore the house. What theft wanted with regard to the gov ernmen t o f I n di a was o°t which in common conve rsa ti on was ca ll e d " a li tt l e to ot s daylight." They wanted more simplicity and more r e ; speneibility. (Hear.) He (Mr. Bright) had objected t o the scheme originally proposed by the Chancellor of th Exchequer because it did not provide these requisit ee ; That teheme so closely resembled the system they iv er ,, about to overthrow that h e (M r. B r i g h t ) could not bring himself to regard it favourably. In considering the su: jest before Parliament m e t h e as k e d hi mself this q uo lion:—" Suppose ther e b a d never b een an East DO' • Company or any such corporation —suppose I n dia W been conquered by the forces of the Crown, command e ... , by generals acting under the au th or it y o f the crow n , how should tee then have proposed to govern distant da j minions of vast extent, and with a population that coa l scarcely be counted?" He believed such a system of g ee e vernment as had heretofore ex i s t e d wou ld never bal e been established, and if such a system had n o t 10.iS te 3 he was convinced that no Ministry would have prop: o° , l the plan now submitted to the house. He thong f the Go v ernment would have been pl ace d i n th e b an d° ° J a Secretary of State, with his secretaries, olerks, ap staff of officers, or of a small board, so small as to pt ii vent responsibility from being diffused aed divided , not actually destroyed. He suspected that the only O r a son why the country or Parliament would be dispos e d to approve the large Council proposed was that they h e , seen something like a Coun c il, f ormer l y o f 24 , an d sub sequently of 18 members, and he believed there w li c i something like timidity on the part of the house, a % probably on the part o f th e G overnment, i n ma ki n g , gri at a change as he suggt sted to the simple plan vviii e be would probably have existed had no such body as t d East India Company ever been established. He *" . .,7, willing to admit candidly th a t if th e G overnment o f Ind ia at home was greatly simplified it wculd be necessO; that very important chan ges s h ou ld b e ma d e i n the o° o vernment of India. (Hear, h ear .) H e agree d w i t h t . ,. .` s noble lord (Stanley) th a t th e re p resen t at i ves o f 1 1, Crown in India must have power as w e ll as reepanet, bitty ; that they should be enabled to d ea l w i t h ejle a gencies— (hear, bear)—and to settle the hundred ° li d thousand questions that must ari se hourly alno°,; 100,000,000 of people, without sendi ng 10 , 000 m iles this country to ask questions which ought to be Bett ie at once by some compete n t authority en the ell ,. (Hear, hear.) There_ were two modes of governing Ittf, and the hon. member f or L eom i nster (Mr. Willough,by) . i who had been a v er y di st i ngu i s h e d servant of the -00:1 India Company, had p u bli c l y expresse d h i s v i ews ups this question. He (M r . B r i g ht) b a d b een ver y mu g struck with a note attached to the published report that speech, referring to the multifarious duties d, charged by the directors of the East India Compa n y: That note stated that " A despatch may be received containing 60, or I°° o f or 200 cases; and the despatch, i n itself volunein ut Y, is rendered more so by coll ec ti ons attac h e d to containing copies of all former correspondence ° 0 the subject or subjects, of all letters written o. therec by various local offic ers , an d a ll p ! pers re l at i ng theret t, Thera has not long since been in the Reer,nue DeP e ic ment a despatch with 16:263 pages of collections. 0 0 1845 there wa s one i n th e same d epartment with 46,0 0 0 pages, and it w as s t a t e d t h a t M r. C ann i ng some Ye ar since in the H ouse o f C ommons mentioned a m ilita ry ted despatch to whi c h were a tt ac h e d 13 , 511 pages of COu'oh tions." The hon. g entl eman did not say in his sP,ee,, anybody at the India-hous e e ver rea d a ll these thlaete. (Hear.) It was quite cl ear th a t if th e directors weree/e pretend to go through a waggon -l oa d o f docutne"be coming to Leadenhall-street every year it must only be a pretence, and that if th e y wan t e d t o persuade this House that they gave att en ti on t o on l y one - ten th Ps of that mat'er they must think the H ouse mor e Bre d lous than they were in matters of that kind, (Cbee r be t h That was one mode of gov e r n i ng I n di a . It woe od mode which bad been adopt e d an d th e mo d e which be failed. If they were to have the details settled her : was perfectly certain they would h ave no goo d go vt 0 went in India. (Hear, hear.) H e h a d a ll u ded e OO . feriner occasion to a matter whi c h occurre d in c,bst mitten. A gentleman who was exam i ne d s t a ted be had undertaken to brew a more wholesome beer ! t he quite as good as that export e d f or t h e supply bee troops, somewhere in the Presidency of Madras, for ted „ sixth of the price paid by Go vernmen t f or th a t exin o % • to India from England ; th a t th e experimen t was c o rd pletely succuessful ; that th e me morandum o r re ot with regard to it was sent home, no doubt forming P t it of the thousands of pages in the collection ; and 1130 10 was buried in the heap in which it came, h e cause_ o o years nothing was hoard of a proposition which fr_` . ' o , l . have saved the Government a very large amount a° a d ally, and opened a new industry to tbe population _ri capital cf India. (Hear, hoar.) He believed d u this system of government wan one of delay and ra f t appointment—one, actually, of impeseibility—one w o rn. could by no moans form a coinplere theory of g 2 ment as held by any persons in the H ouse (bear, b o a be. and that eho other, the simpler s y s t e m, wh ich o would wish the House t o undertake, was onocts. action, progress, and results, with regard to India, tiPnti as they had never yet see n an d never would gee e s' there eves a complete simplification of the Indi'nees' vernment in this c oun t ry. (H ear.) He came to the 'l oc i , Owl—and it was for this question that he wished Pr' COMMISSIONERS FOR EXHIBITION, 1851, BILL. On the consideration of this bill as amended, Mr. WILSON said he had given notice of certain amendments. By the bill Government was to retain a por tion of the land lying in the south east corner, but it was to be used for the sole purposes of the Department of Science and Art. The government would soon have to decide where the new barracks required for the troops were to be built; and he asked the house not to bind themselves to use this land for the purposes of science and art only. He thought it would be desirable that they should not tie their hands. He begged to move the insertion of the words of which he had given notice, the effect of which would be to allow the government to dispose of the land for any public purpose. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not agree to the proposal in the shape it was put. The land had been purchased by tho commissioners on the distinct understanding that no buildings should be erected on it except for the purposes of science and art. He would, however, meet the hon. gentleman so far as to enable the government, if the Department of Science and Art was removed, to use the laud for some other purpose connected with science and art. He would ac cept the amendment if the words "for purposes of sci ence and art" were added to it. After a few words from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY, Mr. LABOUCHERE said the commitedoners were not under a legal but a moral obligation on this subject. The question of building barracks W3R mooted when the purchase was in contemplation, and the commissioners could not obtain the land except on the explicit under standing that no buildings should be erected on it, unless connected with science and art. --- 11:11.60NI,NG HAM believed the amendment raised the question cf moving the National Gallery: n e would not vote far it unless there was a clear and &a tinct understanding that nothing of the kind was intended. Mr. GLADSTONE considered the amendment a reasonable one. There appeared to be certain engage. 25 000 25,000 land. have 1 ver or borne i power canals, human people, (Hear.) rivers N steam-t met us ealarieE bore, a mark o State it the the' althot4 civil se atantd declare was trt that ha liable t occasio the anti aud of( or,t go ni6 cent died n or the ever, w hotline. had nil had bee GQVernl I • all .1