The Sun. — London, England, 1858-06-11 00:00:00

S - t+"C vernment, but of the separate Governments of individual States. Such was the present state of things in America, according to the best testimony ; and he could not help feeling that the example of that country had its due weight with the inhabitants of our own, wbo, he felt as eared, were by no means desirous to alter our constitu tion, in order to assimilate it with that which existed at the other side of the Atlantic. But, although he felt persuaded that such as he had described it to be was the general inclination of the people of these king doms, yet it was, he thought, impossible not to per ceive that the usual means by which the balance of a constitution was changed was by having recourse to gradual and petty alterations—(hear)—none of which were perhaps of extreme importance in them selves, but each of which tended to consequences upon which there was much reason to look with apprehen sion. (Hear.) There could, for instance, be no doubt that the avowed policy of that party in this country which sought to effect extreme chances in our form of govern ment was—being hopeless of carrying out their objects if they proposed to do so openly and directly—to use their own language, to obtain that in detail which they were unable to procure in gross. (Hear.) That was the mode of action which was adopted, and it was, he feared, a policy which was all the more likely to prove successful owing to the fact that, although the party by which it was adopted was at present weak in com parison with others, yet it wielded a power in conse quence of the divisions subsisting between those other parties far greater than it ought, and also owing to the circumstance that a disposition had been exhibited among the public men of various parties to bid for the support of those for whom, as a general rule, they differed on political matters by concurring in the various measures which the party to which he referred deemed it its duty to propose. (Hear.) From a tendency such as that he should confess he believed great danger to the country was likely to arise ; and it was his observation of the existence of that tendency which rendered him so reluc tant to give his assent to the passing of the bill before the house. But, in giving expression to those views, he Must not be understood as being opposed to a deliberate and well-considered revision of eur representative sys tem. Upon the contrary, he was of opinion that the time which had elapsed since 1832 had rendered such a revision desirable, if not necessary. He wished it, how ever, to be effected only after sober and calm deliberation. (Hear.) Meantime he strongly objected to being asked to take small steps year after year, which some people were disposed to regard as being cf no consequence, but which tended to throw additional power into the hands of those by whom those radical changes to which he had referred were sought to be effected, and which, if prosecuted to a successful issue, would only serve to stimulate their appetite and to lead them on the accom plishment of objects the attainment of which he could not look upon otherwise than with dismay. (Hear.) In any well considered measure of Parliamentary reform which might be introduced it would, he felt convinced, be found necessary that some changes should be effected which were not altogether cf a popular character, and which should have for their object the removal of defects which were not those dwelt upon by ordinary popular orators, but which at the same time must not be regarded as the less substantial or important. Now, if any alte rations of that character should be found to be necessary, it was, he thought, extremely expedient that their lord ships should, as a measure of common prudence, abstain from making concessions on their part until they knew what concessions would be made on the other side. (Hear.) For these reasons be regretted extremely that such a measure as that under their notice should be allowed to pass without a single word of explanation from her Majesty's Government. Upon a subject of such transcendent importance they bad a right to de mand that they should not be led blindfolded along a path of which they could not see the end. (Hear.) He should, therefore, call upon noble lords opposite, who concurred with him as to the necessity of exercising great caution in dealing with a question so grave to watch with duo care the conduct of their leaders. If their leaders would only stand by them as they ought, he saw no reason to suppose that it was not possible that the entire question might not be fairly and satisfactorily settled. If, however, those leaders should pursue a d:ffereet course, and, trusting to the aid of that party to which they bad hitherto acted, should at the same time reek by dangerous concessions to earn the support of those who differed widely from them in p principles, then might the consequences which would follow turn out to be formidable indeed. (Hear.) Now, the expectation had been held out to the country that in the course of next session a general measure of Par liamentary Reform would be introduced by her Majesty's Government, and if they were prepared to act upon that intimation he should beg to impress upon them the greet importance of taking—before they even entered upon the consideration of their proposed scheme—some steps to collect, by means of able and trustworthy persons, information bearing upon the subject. He believed t.hat an immense amount of statistical and other information might be obtained by persons fitted for the duty, and would throw great light on the best means of improving the constitution of the House of Commons. He hoped that if Government intended to bring forward a measure of reform next session they would, during the present autumn, take steps to collect such information and place it before Parliament. (Hear, hear.) Lord EBURY confessed that he was a li.tle astonished at some of the observations made by his noble friend, but he shenld not now trouble their lordships by di?- cussing the five points of the Charter, or other Urge measures of reform which might ba desired by any party in the country or in Parliament. He did not agree with his noble friend in thinking this a very un important measure. It bad been his misfortune to serve upon committees of the other House, appointed to inquire into the r:ifdity of the property qualifications of two members, and the proceedings of those commit tees were so tedious and protracted that he was con vinced the House of Commons would desire to be relieved from duties of this disagreeable character. Here, thee, was one not unimportant advantage which would be conferred by a repeal of the law. That law, however, as it stood, was but a delusion and a snare, and on this ground, too, ho would support the present measure. Nor did he tee why they ought to quarrel with the noble earl at the head of the G vernment f.r adopting this reform. Why should not the noble earl be allowed to change his mind on this and on other subj2cta, even though he might formerly have pro nounced decided opinions of a different kind ? He (Lord Ebury) should give his vote for the Bill, and was glad to understand that it was not likely to be opposed by the Government. (Hear.) The Duke of RUTLAND was afraid the noble lord who had just sat down would have to "go the whsle hog" on the five points of the Charter, and perhaps s ome thing more, if he allowed himself to be influenced by a de sirs to relieve hon. members from the difficuLies to which they were now exposed. He believed that no re spectable man was prevented from obtaining a seat in the other house by the law as it stood, and he should, therefore, enter his protest against the repeal of that The Earl of DERBY (who was indistinctly her(l) said,—lf I did not rise immediately after the noble earl (Fortescue) it was not from the slightest wish to conceal the opinion I have formed upon this subject, bat merely because, not intending myself to offer any opposition to the second reading of the bill, and understandirg that it was the intention of the noble earl who spoke second (Earl Grey) to offer some opposition to it, I was anxious to hear what arguments be was prepared to submit. I confess it has been satisfactory to me to find that my opinions with regard to this bill aro in a great measure shared by the noble earl, and that, instead of oppos ing the bill—as I expected he would do—he has con fined himself to malting certain observations, not. so much with regard to the measure itself as to the pos sible cmseqeences which he thought might follow its adoption I agree with the noble earl in the opinion he expressed that the bill is in itself of very trifling and immaterial importance, and I also agree with him in the view which he takes of the danger of some ulterior measures with which he sought to connect this bill, but with which I confess I am not able to see any connection. Whenever measures o f a c h aracter dangerous to the constitution may be proposed nothing will give me, greater satisfaction than to find that in resisting them—as I should resist them on whatever side cf the House I might happen to sit—l have the conscientieus support and assistance of the noble earl. I must con fees, however, that while the noble earl will find no one more sincerely and conscientiously opposed than myself to the democratic measures which he announced his determination to resist, I see no necessity for the solemn warning he gave to those with whom I have the honour of acting to be cautious that their leaders do not place them in a dangerous position. lam sure the Conserva tive party will be deeply grateful for the noble earl's ad vice, and I hope they will give it due weight. What ever importance they may attach to his recommendations I am sure they w;11 attach great value to his promise of assistance in resisting the progress of extreme measures. The question ie, however, how far the "Bill now before us is connected with the other measure to which the noble earl has referred. The noble earl says that the proposal to abolish the property qualification, is sup ported by a party who will demand a redistribution of electoral districts, the vote by hallo`, the shortening,of the duration of Parliaments, and a very large extension -of the suffrage, all of which, as I understood, the noble earl is determined to oppose. Earl GREY was understood to say that what be had stated wee, that th ese p roposa l', cons i dered as a whole, iudtie t o b u o i u d t any compensating measures on th e o th er ' amo unt to a revolution, and so they would. (" Hear," and a laugh.) The Earl of teßey Th in the opinion of en, I want to know how f ar , the noble the measure is revplu tionary. The nobl e earl b a l a e sa tl id ' that the bill is u tt er l y un important and immaterial. I must protest, then, Against his coupling his objectlonsto this b 11 isith hi s o bjections to other measures, which, h taken a lt oge ther and unaccompanied b y any h e says, m a, would be equivalent to a revolution. D oes it follo w atill be cause the House of Commons aro prep are d to sanction this measure that they are also prepared to sanction the other measures to which the noble - .earl has referred! The noble earl has alluded to Secret, voting; b ut the same House of Commons which regards the bill now before us as a perfectly safe and immaterial measure was not prepared to give its sanction to what the noble earl regarded as a revolutionary element —namely, the dangerous measure of vote by ballot, for =~ a~.-- THE SUN, LONDON' FRIDAY EVENING, J a ITNE 11, 1858. have been advanced in favour of the present measure. The noble earl who spoke second in the debate did not object to the bill in itself, while the slight reasons stated by the noble duke opposite, the only person who has ex pr• seed any decided opposition to the measure, have been sufficiently answered by the speeches already made on the other side of the que - Aion. I cannet admit that we ought not to pass this bill on account of the probable introduction next session of a large and comprehensive measure of Parliamentary reform. Considering that every Government which has existed during the last 20 years has virtually admitted that the representation requires amendment, I do not think we can remain much longer where we are ; but when we are asked to resist small measures on the ground that a large and comprehensive measure may be introduced, we are bound to consider what chances there are of such a measure being passed. That object, as it appears to me, can be obtained in only two ways. The first ie, that the lead• ing statesmen and politicians of the country should con cur in some measure of reform. Now, lam afraid that there is little chance of such an agreement, except by the ordinary means of Parliamentary discussion; and, though it might be desirable to have the general concurrence of prominent statesmen in a measure of reform, I am not sure that the jealousy of the nation would not be excited if political leaders were to settle, as it were out of court, what changes should be introduced into our representa tive system. (Hear.) I cannot, therefore, regard that plan as one likely to be carried into effect. The other way in which a great measure of Parliamentary reform may be passed is, either that a strong Government should undertake to push it through, or that there should be a general expression of public opinion on the subject. Now, without meaning any disrespect to noble lords opposite, I must say that the position which they hold at the present moment, whatever may be the case here after, is not such as to enable them to carry whatever measure they might consider sound and beneficial, or successfully to resist in the House of Commons any pro poaition which they might deem injurious and unsafe. I am bound to admit, at the same time, that some portion of their weakness hap been communicat:4 to the other parties in the State, and that at the present moment we cannot calculate upon the formation of a Government strong enough to carry by its own unaided vigour a large and comprehensive measure of reform. Nor does it seem to me that the public generally are much interested in the question. There is no excitement anywhere, and I sincerely believe that the feeling of the country is not such as to overcome all the difficulties and obstacles which exist to the passing of a really great measure. I think the members of the House of Commons personally are disposed to say—. t 4 - better bear those ills we have, Than fly to others that we know not of. while the constituencies, being naturally satisfied with their present position, are not particularly anxious for the introduction of extensive alterations into our repre sentative system. At the same time, I feel certain that if we were to stand perfectly still—above all, if we were to put ourselves in opposition to such reforms as could be shown to be reasonable and desirable—we should immediately have a strong and overwhelming public opinion, not directed to a measure full of checks and balances such as has been described to us, but capable of being wielded in favour of a wild and dangerous scheme. For this reason I think it would be prudent for us, whenever bills like the present come under our consideration, not to put them off with some vague 'lotion that a larger and more comprehensive measure may be proposed, but to consider carefully whether they are calculated to improve our institutions, and to per fect that representative system which I believe even now is superior to what exists in many other countries, but which, I think, requires considerable change and. modi fication to meet the progressive increase in wealth and enlightenment of different classes of the community. While giving my vote in favour of the present bill, I shall equally deem it my duty to support other measures that may come before us, provided they seem likely to promote the public good. (Hear, hear.) Lord CAMPBELL had always thought that the pro perty qualification was inexpedient, and therefore be should vote for the present bill. Let Parliament look to the qualification of the electors, and then the elected would he found to be fitting representatives of the coun try. No inconvenience bad arisen in Scotland from the want of a property qualification, and the Scotch mem bers had nothing to fear from a comparison, in point of station and respectability, with their English or Irish brethren. Ile wouli support this bill, and he hoped it would be the precursor of many other measures for the improvement of the representation of the people. (Haar, hear ) The bill was then read a second time. SALE OF POISONS BILL. The house went into committee on this bill, and the clauses were agreed to with some verbal amendments•. MUNICIPAL FRANCHISE BILL. Lord ABINGER moved the second reading of this bill, which ho said was intended to remedy an anomaly in the existing law, whereby occupiers of houses valued at 61. per year possessed the right of vot'..o, at municipal elections, while occupiers of houses valued between 61. and 201. were unable to do so. After a few observations from the Etrl of DONOUGH MORN, the bill was read a second time. COMPENSATION IN THE CASE OF THE electors. He thought, therefore, on that ground alone, there was reason for increasing the number of the county electors. He must entreat the House not to reject the bill, but to make this small concession to the people of England. He hoped the members of the late government would not go back from the principles they had once before expre-sed, that they would make this concession now, as lee had made a concession to them by adopting the very words in which they had chosen to prove their principle. He hoped also that her Majesty's present government would not refuse this favour to the people of England, because, however reasonable the concession might be as coming from the opposition, it would carry more weight and would be more gracious if it came from those who were in power. He hoped, above all, that they would not promise to deal with the question in some future measure of reform, for there was a fatality attending all those parliamentary promir es—not one of them was ever fulfilled. He hoped the right hon. gentleman would not press his opposition to a divition, for if he did he would find that the ma jority of the house was against him, and the majority of that house would express the feelings of the electors, and the feelings of the majority of the people of England. He moved the second reading of the bill. Mr. DIJCANE said the house was called on to dis pose of one of the most important questions which had been submitted to them this session. The question was, in what manner and at what time the house was prepared to deal with the question of Parliamentary Reform ? He did not wish to convey the impression that he was opposed to any reform, or that he objected to extend the franchise in the counties. Ore the contrary, he felt that the day was not far distant when they must consider the question of reform, and, moreover, that no member could hope to retain his seat who was not prepared to enter into that question meet see sion, but he was opposed to any piecemeal and idle legis• lation. The existing system, with all its anomalies, was so nicely balanced that it was impossible to deal with any one anomaly singly without bringing others into greater relief. The bill would have the effect of heaping Pelion on Ossa. It would lay a mountain of anomaly on what was as yet but a molehill. The great existing anomaly was that the towns, not content with being re• presented themselves, were exercising an overpowr ring influence over the representation of the counties. Thus, Brighton exercised an overpowering influence in Sussex ; Northampton in Northamptonshire, &c: He hoped they would wait till a time when a moderate and judicious remedy could be applied to existing anomalies. The effect of the bill would be to abolish the county repre sentation, and bring into form a vast system of universal borough representation. Two lessons might be drawn from the last Reform Bill ; no system could fairly repre. sent the people that was not based on a recognition of various conflicting interests with a regard to their fair representation. Any system based on uniformity would, in effect, be nothing less than placing the controlling potVer in the hands of the class next above the lowest represented, and the more they extended the franchise the more won'," that be the case It would be to the tastes, opinions, and prejudices of the 101. householders that they would have to defer. He quoted hone Mr. Burke a passage to the effect that whatever views were held by the distinguished few, it was the great mass who bad the authority, and those who lead must conform to the views of those whom they wish to conduct. This was said with reference to those within the represents tive assembly, but ho thought it applied with equal force to the constituency. They were told they were not to regard this as a final measure but as the first of a series , . But, strong as were his ottjections to this as a final measure, he had stronger objections to this or any other measure proposed as the first of a series, which was in effect declaring that it was imperfect, and that they had no definite plans for the future. (Hear, hear.) He hoped they weuld not go on with such blindfold hand-to-mouth legislation. It was impor tant that when they dealt with such a question they should come to a decision which for some years at least would be regarded as a final one. The greatest and wisest statesmen had held that it was dangerous to make frequent constitutional changes. (Hear.) If the house was to be constantly occupied with such questions he could not conceive anything more calculated to check the coarse of sound legislation and to shake confidence in the efficiency and solidity cf Parliamentary govern ment. They should be told that Governmenatslaseandatg ented to deal with these measures serietint by tin to the abolition of the property qualification. But he contended reasons existed why the question of property qualification should be regarded as different from other pilots which come under their consideration on the Re f irate Bid. Already the qualification did not appiy to a portion of the kingdom ; and as to the other portion, it was shown by long experience that it was rendered nu gatory by evasion and equivocationi(Hneeatn.h)ey had theThecases were not analogous. Ia experience to guide them, which was not the case in the other instance. Lord J. Russell bad argued that hon. members ought not to oppose the measure, as the larger the number of electors in a constituency the more weight it gave to a meatier. He, did not say that the numerical constituency did not add to the sense of responsibility, but that the weight of an hon. member depended on something else than his own qualifications and abilities. Many men who bad attained the highest emience, though they bad at some time or other belonged to large constituencies, had not sought, but been sought by the constituencies, and when they took office bad returned to the comparative obscurity of small constituencies. This bad been the case with Mr. Canning and the late Sir Robert Peel. The late head of her Majesty's Go vernment had long been unmolested in the peaceful sha !es of Tiverton. (A laugh.) There was an ex ception in the cato of the noble lord himself who represented the important constituency of London. But he would refer to the authority of Lord Grey, who said it was so difficult for Minister, who represented a large constituency to avoid being influ enced by local interests, that it was very desirable that a Minister should not represent a large constituency, and be (Lord Grey) looked upon it as a great disadvantage to the noble lord to have so long represented the city of London. (Hear, and laughter.) They all knew that, though Lord J. Russell was no longer a Minister cf the Crown, be asseciated with his chequered visions of the past some brighter visions of the future—(hear, and laughter)—and he would recornm nd him to pause be fore he advocated the principle a representing largo constituencies, and try whether he could not effect a negotiation with the hon. baronet who represented Tavietock. (Hear, and laughter.) He would then be more ready to avail himself of some of the good things which the fates, wino presided over the rise and fall of Min:stere, might yet have in store for him. (Hear, and laughter.) In opposing this measure be was fortified by members of no mean authority in the house, advocating alinest every shade of Liberal opinion. Lord J. Russell had given it Lie most determined opposition, though now ho supported it. fie (Yin DileaDe) could not say why Lord Palaierstom who, if not by great deeds, at least by great intentions, was on eminent Liberal, had opposed it, though what his present intentions might be involved a considerable amount of speculation. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The right hon. member for Wilts held that a henover they dealt with this question it was of the utmost importance that they should recognise a diversity of interests as between the counties and the boroughs, and tneer clear of extending the franchise on the basis of uniformity. Ho referred to the Times news paper to show that the gentlemen wbose ultimatum was the manifesto of November last, were not quite unani mous; for Mr. Ayrton objected to the proposition ex• tending the 101. franchise to the counties, which he said Would swamp the legitimate infl uence o f the knights of the shire, and array town against country in a way to which he was adverse. (Hear, hear.) At a time anterior to the In ion of party and confusion of prin ciple which had lately arisen —(hear, bear)—he had never anticipated that almost on the first occa ion of addressinfr, the house, he should be able to convince them that perfect unanimity existed on this point between the noble lord the member for Tiverton and the hoe. mem ber for the Tower Hamlets ; least dad that he, a mem ber, should cordially agree with both. But when they did agree, their agreement was wonderful. (Laughter.) He further quottel from the same number of the Times a piece of advice which ho thow t ht very forcible and sere sible, advising the postponement of the reform bill till next session. It, would be tie first of a series of conc-,s alone as mischievous in practice as they were errone ous in theory, and wed.] tend to check the progress , of sound legislation. He reminded Lord Palmerston in 1857, when there was a mutiny in his own ranks, the Conservative opposition came to his rescue and enabled him to :esist this measure, and he appealed to the noble lord to take a similar course now that he was in opposi tion ; and to show that he was not oblivious of the aid they had given him—shaven!: that he was not oblivious of the principles he bad then tupeerted. Whatever de sire they might have fora remedy of anomalies however plausible might be these abstract and isolated theories, however well adapted to woo and win applause on the o f hustings, atatesm t a h n e l y i e would abilityu nd discretion requiresomething i u any m likethe e us exercise ureo f this kind b-forethey question. Mr. it. He concluded by moving the previous Mr. MILES congratulated his hon. friend on the ability with which he bad moved it. He was a great ac quisition to this house. (Hear.) H e was glad that his hon. friend hatl altered the question from the form in w hich he had originally put it, that the bill should be read a third time that day six months, which would in measure exclude its consideration when the general question carne before them. Considering the late period of the seesion, it was impossible that the hill, if passed , should come into operation before 1360. He thought it would be better to wait till next session, when a reform bill, not on isolated points, but on general principles would have to be consitleral, which would be the proper time to consider the enfranchisement of 101. householders. He objected t o take three questions piecemeal. The noble lord the reerabtr fer London had changed his opii ion on this subject since he introduced his firrt reform bill, and be (Mr. Miles,) regretted the noble lord had changed his opinion and giveu tie support to the bid. In 1854, when the neble lord proposed to give a county 101. frarcblie, ho also propestd to drop the bereugh franchise to Si. The hon. gentleman referred to the cliff:Tent franchises the noble lord proposed in his measure of 1854. It was n am ot pe u l on e r n i o li u r el i i t fer all desirable pur t p o o g s i e t s ,e , a bu i t et the uou n u o t h y le fr l a o t r , d el d is :d e ithent other altrietions accompanying it. member K for ing's v i c e r e t t o i n o n o rw, the e o pp principle l Mr. L. s nt o t f h i e d enuothiLlte:!,o;rtril year,uthae iificetion in boroughs and count ice, which he considered should ,land oa different principies—(hear)—and he (tlr. Mi et) hoped the noble lord the member for 'Clover ton would also en this occasion vote against the second noble lord and his friends to assist the Cons ervative sthis ther eadingn ob c e f l the L r year. Let thtin have fair play on that occ asi o n, and as ieaostitnygeatrhuthebiel s u e u r d v a t h i v e e a s s a k s e s d i s the the Ministerial party was said to be in a minority, it was the duty of those he had referred to to m a e s bs s el i ,r s e t eti t )ar h l e lsy ru tr . ::fu il tfej e r, t e h al e le h d on al . so ru f; u r a, t e u r ep f o o r r t o K n id th ei e .,r h u3 o i n ut ln er e , what he (Mr. !Idea) had seen in the Times that day— (laughter)—the hon.' member for Devonport, and last, the hon. baronet who rendered such essential service to the late Government, the boo, member for Welle. (Hear.) There was now no agitation for a change; and he believed the hon. member for Surrey had not presented a petition in favour of his measure. They had constantly called on various Governments for reform in vain, but the noble lord at the head of her Majesty's Government had announced that he intended to bring in a Re form Bill. (" No, no.") He was sorry, he admitted, that the Home Secretary had stated her Majesty's Go vernment would consider the question of reform, but he (Mr. Miles) considered the words used by the noble lord in another 'house warranted him in saying her Majesty's Government intended to introduce a Reform Bill next session of such a character as to please all moderate and impartial men. He (Mr. Miles) therefore considered the house ought not to pass this measure, which sanctioned bit by bit legislation, but wait and consider a bold and comprehensive measure, that must be introduced at no long period. It was necessary to do away with many anomalies that at present existed in the representation, and open the franchise to many classes who did not now enjoy it. He cordially seconded the amendment. (Hear, and divide.) The SPEAKER then proceeded to put the question. After the ayes had declared their opinion, Viscount PALMERSTON—I waited till the very last moment, and did not rise until you were about to pronounce that word which would have stopped further discussion. I waited till the last moment, in order to hear what course Government was going to take on this motion. As the house was about to divide in ignorance of the course Government meant to pursue, I feel bound to answer the touching, eloquent, and moving appeals made to myself and others. We have often had occasion this session to feel compassion for the pitiable condition in which the Government have been placed. (Opposition cries of "oh.") They came into power, and avowedly in a minority, and compelled to depend for support on the sufferance of the majority of the house. (Hear, hear.) But never have I seen such signals of distress as were held out to-night —not indeed by Government—but by those who may be considered to express their sentiments. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member who moved the amend ment in a speech to the ability of which I willingly bear testimony—a speech which gives great promise of future performance—made an appeal to us ; and the hon. member who followed him:also appealed to us:in the most moving manner for support. (Hear, hear.) That appeal was made to us on the ground that the Conservatives had come to our assistance on a former occasion on this question. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman said that in February,' 1857, there was mutiny and insurrection in the ranks of the supporters of the Government, and that the Conservatives came to the re scue and offered them relief. No doubt that was a very charitable act. (Hear, hear.) But there was a February, 1858, as well as a February, 1857. (A laugh.) In Feb., 1858, there was mutiny in the Government ranks. What did the Con , ervativea do at that period ? Did they come to our rescue ? No. They joined the ranks of the insur gents and overthrew the constituted authorities. As far as any personal claim is concerned, therefore, I think February, 1858, may be set off against February, 1857. The present condition of the Government, and the lan guage held to-night, reminds me of the miserable state of the former inhabitants of our island when deserted by the Romans. They said that the barbarians—of course all who sit on the Treasury bench are barbarians—(a laugb)—would drive us int) the sea, that is into the troubled waters below the gangway—(a laugh)—and the sea erives us Lack again to the barbarians. (Rear.) I hold myself entirely free to vote on this occasion as I Veiuk right, without being bound by any obligations of gratitude to hon. gentlemen opposite. The bill brought in last year was totally different in title and intention from that now introduced. The bill of last year was to assimilate the county and borough franchise. The present bill is to improve and extend the franchise cf counties, but does not assimilate the two. (Oh, oh.) Last year we had announced our intention to propose, during the pre sent session, a bill of parliamentary reform, but as we intended to embrace in that bill an arrangement with regard to the county franchise, we were of opinion that the house ought to have trusted us so far al to postpone any decision on the county franchise till we had pro duced our measure. The present Government are not pledged to produce any measure of parliamentary reform. They are pledged to consider the question. Considera tion and decision are duff rent things, Consideration may - last a longtime, and decision may be tardily granted. The present bill is not the bill of last year. (OS.) It may be said that though the title is different, the bill does not imply the assimilation cf the county and borough franchise, yet the manner in which the blanks may be filled up would accomplish that object. It is undoubtedly the real state of the case. But those who adhere to the opinion I expressed, that it would not be desirable to as similate the two franchises, by reducing the city fran chise to 101., may, nevertheless, with perfect consistency vote for the second reading of the bill, with the intention of proposing in committee an alteration of the franchise intended to be established for the counties'. Any one, therefore, who contemplates the reduction of the present county franchise may consistently vote for the second reading of the bill, reserving to himself in committee to chose the particular franchise he would prefer. (Hear.) And, therefore, as I am not one of those who think that the county franchise ought to be lowered—as I am, on the contrary, one of those who believe it would be an ad vantage to reduce the present county franchise, and to extend to a certain degree the. number of the county constituents, I am prepared to assent to the second read ing of this bill, with the reservation I have mentioned in respect to the limits which the proposed change is to as sume. (Hear.) I must add, however, that I cannot agree with many of the arguments employed in favour of the measure. We are told that one reason why we should support the bill is that it would remove certain anomalies from our representative system. Eut I defy you by any legis'ation to get rid of anomalies in that system. Even if you were to divide the country into parallelograms, and to award au equal number of rapresentatfvea to each dis trict, it would still vs impossible for you to put an end to these anomalies. An anomaly means, in the opinion of the man who uses the word, something at variance with a rule which he believes ought to be adopted. One man may think that rule ought to be a numerical equality be tween the different constituencies, and he would get rid of what he regarded as anomalies by the eoforeernent of his favourite measure. But another man may believe that the proper course to be pursued would be to secure a re presenta•ion of the diffeteet interests and classes in the community, and he would tell you that you would only add to tho existing anomalies by dividing the country into equal electoral districts. I can, therefore, attach no value upon this occasion to the argument founded on the expediencyof getting rid of anomalies. But we are Cid that it is better to make this change no w, because we eha 1 otherwise be called upon to make it hereafter, under less favourable circumstances, under the influence of some strong popular feeling ; and we aro reminded of what took place when the lieform Bill was passed in the year 1830. That argument, too, I think, is mis placed. When the bill cf 1832 was passed there existed an electoral system which must be admitted to have been in the highest degree objectionable. There were imagi nary boroughs returning members to this house, while large masses of the industrious and wealthy portions of the community had no voice in the legielaion of the country. That was a state of things which when it came to he taken into consideration could not be maintained by any argument. But it has since happily ceased to exist ; and I cannot admit that the argument deduced from the national demand for a change int our legislation in the year 1832. can apply to the present state of our representation. That, however, is no reason against our looking into the existing system, and endeavouring to improve those portions of it whi c h are susceptible cf improvement ; but it is a reason for our rationally and deliberately considering this question, and refusing to rush headlong into any particular course, because we might hereafter be driven by some popular impulse to adopt some meaeure of which our judgmerst would dis approve. I have no olij to what may be called bit-by-bit reform. I think it might perhaps be betttr to leave this proposal to be incorporated with some more general scheme. Ido not think the nation at large is at present anxious for any great and fundamental change in our representative system. I believe the House of Commons is much more forward upon this mat ter than the nation which they represent. (Hear.) I be lieve the country at large would be satisfied with a very I moderate measure ; but at the same time, caked upon as I am to decide on the proposal at present under the coneideration of the hou-ie, I cannot affirm that the comity franchise is one that ought not to be improved, and I arn, therefore, ready to go into committee on this bill, for the purpose of endeavouring to see in what man ner and to what extent the county franchise can be re duce'? consistently with the well-being of the country, and consistently with a due regard to that balance of interests on which our representative system has hitherto been founded. (Rear, hear.) Mr. HENLEY said—The noble lord has stated in such plain and unanswerable laeguage every objection that can be made to the present bill, as explained by its mover, that I find he has l e ft me nothing to add to his arguments against the measure. Toe bon. gentleman the inerob , r for Ea=t Surrey has rested his case entirely on the expediency of a.ssitnila'ing the county and the borough franchises, He used no other argument which could jus tify the adoption of his proposal. The position which he maintained TVII3, that as a 101. franchise was good for the boroughs, a similar franchise must be good fur the counties. But the noble lord says that he cannot assent to that conclusion and that he will not vote for a 101. county franchise, although he is willing to alter the fran chise established in the c unties under the exiting law. The noble lore, however, bits not told us what is the nature ef the change of which he would be prepared to approve. (llear) He did not give us the smallest inkling as to the figure which he would support in committee, if the bill should ever reach that stage. The noble lord has complained that no member of the Government rose be fore himself t o a d "ress the house ; but I think he must admit that, after two speeches had been made by lion rnernia,rs sit i, g on this Bide, against the bill, it was nee u ral f r us to supp see that some of those who were called by the noble lord himself, and not by tie, the "barba rians" weuld get up and ad , jress the house in eupportof the motion of the hon. mern!ser for East Sul rey. (Hear.) Hoe. members are well aware that it is very unusual to see three members sitting on the same side of the house rise ie surce , sion to maitna n the same opinion on any q u ' i 'ifml• Now, with resp ec t to the proposal itself, I must Bay I think my hon. friend the member fur East Somer set ,hir e v es pen feetly j us tifi e d i n asking what could be ject in g,ined b y attemp t ing to legislate upon this sul the present session. The time is gone by when such a measure as this could have any immediate effect. The registration for the muuties will commence before it will be possible to pass this bill through the house, and there can, therefore, be no reason why we should now embark _in this discussion. The words employed in another place by the noble earl at the head of the Go vernment have been quoted for the purpose of showing what are the future intentions of the Government in re ference to the introduction of a reform bill. Now, I thi..k those words are as explicit as words can be. (dear, hear.) Let it be remembered, too, that the speaker is not a man who is at all apt to use language and afterwards fail to act up to it. (Hear.) Under those circumstances I think it is not unreasonable to ask the house whether, by adopting the course they are now invited to pursue, they believe they would be facilitating a settlement of the reform question, or whether they do not rather think they would thereby be throwing an impediment in the way of the accomplishment of such an object ? (Hear, hear.) I entirely approve of the mode in which the pro posal of the second reading of the bill has been met ; and I must also bear my testimony to the great ability and moderation with which " the previous question" has been moved. (Hear.) I believe it would have been unfair to have met the motion for the second reading of the bill by a direct negative. I believe that after the pledge given by Government to look into the whole re form question, with a view to its general settlement, it would have been unfair to have asked the house to corn mit'thereselves to the rejection of any particular measure. The hon. gentleman who broughtforward the bill wished to assimilate the county and the borough franchises ; but no one has adduced any argument in favour of such a scheme, and the noble lord has argued directly against it. Every one must see that the noble lord is availing himself of a kind of special plea when he supports the second leading of the bill, while he expressed his disap proval of a 10/, county franchise. I will eels hoc. mem bers opposite who sit below the gangway, whether they do not understand this to be a measure for a 101. county franchise, and nothing else? (Hear.) I must add that I think the hon. gentleman who has introduced the bill ought to have given us some intimation of its . probable effect on that balance of power between different inte rests and classes which is seoured by our present repre sentative system ; but the hon. member has left that I very important matter wholly unnoticed. I very much doubt whether the measure would remove the anomalies of the present system. I agree with the noble lord that you must have anomalies under any arrangement it would be possible to adopt ; and all that you can do is to obtain a sort of balance of those anomalies, so that all the interests of the country may on the whole be fairly represented. I do not believe you would, by adopting this measure, close all discussion as to the amount at which the qualification for the county fran chise should stand, and I do not think it would now be just or wise to attempt . to prejudge that matter, and thus throw an impediment in the way of the Govern ment which would interfere with their taking the whole reform question into their consideration, with the view of honestly endeavouring to effect its settlement. I must repeat that I believe the noble lord has completely refuted the - proposal for an assimilation of the county and the borough franchises ; and I have now only to state, in conclusion, that I shall cordially give my sup port to the mover of the previous question. (Hear.) The house then divided on the motion that "the qnestion be put," and the numbers were— Ayes Noes. . 226 . 168 Majority —5B The announcement of the numbers was received with some cheering fro;n the Opposition side of the house. The question that the bill be read a second time-was then put and carried without any discussion, and the committee on the measure was fixed for Tuesday next. UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL. The LORD-ADVOCATE moved the second reading of this bill. Mr. BLACK opposed the motion, which he said ho did with great reluctance, because, in his opinion, instead of improving the condition of the Scottish universities, it would have a decidedly opposite effect. It appeared that the bill was altogether untnendable, and could not be sa tisfactorily dealt with in committee. It wanted, in fact, like a very old gun, a new stock, a new lock, and a new barrel. (A laugh.) The bill was like the concluding part of a charity sermon—a mere demand for money, and the whole of its provisions were directed to the means of ob taining a comfortable independence for the professors of the universities. He moved that the bill be read a second time this day six months. The amendment having been seconded. Mr. C. BRUCE defended the bill, observing that the objections of Mr. Blaekrelated to matters for consideration in the committee. Colonel SYKES strongly condemned the measure, cen suring the violence of the changes it would introduce and its invasion of vested interests. Mr. STE WART could not see that the bill would in any way affect the efficiency of the universities of the north of Scotland. He ventured confidently to predict that if this bill passed there would be an interest created round these universities which did not at present exist. Sir W. DUNBAR said it was with regret that he found the bill opposed by the members for Edinburgh and Aber deen, whose opinions he admitted were entitled to consi deration, but it would require better arguments than those he had heard adduced, as they were to the details, rather than to the principle of the bill to change his opinion. Whether the Lord Advocate s u cc e ed e d or failed in passing the bill, he had by drawing attention to the matter entitled himself to the gratitude of every well wisher of the universities. Mr. DUNLOP was glad that the Lord Advocate had broughti forward a measure for the improvement of the universities, and hoped the learned gentleman would give such explanations as would enable him to support the mea sure. The objections were such as aught to be ravauced at another stage. He should be glad to see a state of things in which, instead of town and gown being opposed, they should work together in harmony and amity. Mr .STIRLING expressed a hope that the bill would come before the committee with such a paper of amend mentments as would render it wholly unobjectionable. Mr. CO WAN said the objections were so strong that he would advise the postponement of the further progress of the bill. Mr. WARREN congratulated the Government on the introduction of a measure which met with so much sub stantial support ; for he believed that whatever objections were urged against the bill were essentially objections against matters of detail which could be readily cleared away in committee. Lord DUNCAN intended to give his most cordial sup port to the bill, and he concurred in thinking that all the objections urged against it ought to have been withheld until the bill got into committee. Mr. DUFF would vote with great pleasure for the second reading of the bill, but did not intend to support its provisions having reference to the College of Aberdeen. Mr. GILPIN did not think the provisions of the bill were as completely understood as they ought to be, and therefore it would be, perhaps, better if the bill bo with drawn for the present session. Mr. E. ELLICE, jun., approving of the bill generally, would nevertheless be not satisfied with it unless the learned Lord Advocate favoured them in committee with the names of the commissioners to be appointed under the bill, inasmuch as he considered everything depended upon who those commissioners were. At the same time ho must congratulate the learned Lord Advocate on having intro iuced a measure which met with so little opposition. The LORD ADVOCATE must express his thsnks for the amount of support which the bill hurl received. The bill had been alone opposed by the hon. members for Edin. buigh and Aberdeen, bet then their objections were en tirely of a local character. The bill was founded almost entirely upon the report of the commission of 1830, !al though there might be certain variances in it with regard to the details of that report. With respect to the objec tion urged against the large powers concededtathe commis sioners, he must rewind the house that he had placed on the paper a notice of a clause, requiring for every rule and ordinance issued by the commissioners the approval of her Msjesty in council. (Hear, hear.) The peers of Scotland Isere in favour of the measure, and if it required further consideration it should be in committee, whore he should be happy to meet any hon. member's objections to the measure. With regard to the feeling in Aberdeen rela tive to the extinction of Marischal College, there bail been pAitions present e d f rom t h a t p l hce, four being in favour of the bill generally, and especially the fusion of the two universities. Colonel SYKES- -How many against them ? The LORD ADTOG'ATE said he had not counted them, but the hon. member could easily do so. The house would legislate on this subject not as borough schools, but as national institutions for the promotion of learning through. out the country. It was not to be expected that the two institutions would be maintained in one place at the public expense—especially two crippled and import', ct institu tions— instead of one. The hon. member for Greenock ap. peered to think that the 0101 ical element would too much prevail, but he (the Lord Advocate) was of a different opi nion. It was true that most of the graduates of some of the Universities had entered and did enter for the Presby terian Church, but that would cure itself in the beneficial working of the act after they hail agreed to his amend merits in committee. The mode ofchoesingdirectors object( d to by the hen, member there was some difficulty attending it, and he would adopt the suggestion of the hon. member in respect to it. Experience had shown that the Chancel lors would wish a continuance of the present mode of elec tion, and the influence complained of might easily be re medied. With regard to the suggestion of Mr. Andrews, relative to the promulgation of the names of the committee, he felt it to be a task of the greatest possible difficulty, and that had prevented his laying the names before the house ; but he anticipated when he did so the names would inspire confidence._ His sole object in the promotion of the bill had been the prosperity of the Scottish universities, and he should be happy to receive suggestions from all quarters on the subject. He did not anticipate introducing a mea sure that would at first give general satisfaction. Lord ELCHO said he would reserve fur the committee his observations on the union of the two universities of Al;erdeen. He congratulated the Lord Advocate on the manner in which the measure had been received in that house. (Hear, hear, and divide.) Mr. BAXTER said that after the manner in which the Lord Advocate had received the suggestion he (Ur. Baxter) hoped the amendment would be withdrawn. Mr. BLACK intimated his willingness to withdraw the amendment. The amendment was negatived without a division. JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES BILL. The House having gone into committee upon this bill, Upon clause 2 Mr. HENLEY wished to know what notice would be given to depositors in banks whi c h were converted from unlimited to limited liability of the change that occurred in their relations towards such banks ? Mr. lIENDLAM said that under the former Act it was provided that no change could affect existing contracts. After a change to limited liability a bank must advertise the circumstance upon all its forms. Mr. HENLEY drew the attention of the hon. and learned gentleman to the cases of running accounts which were not in the nature of contracts. Mr. HEADLAM replied that it was competent for par ties to withdraw their money if they pleased, as they would have sufficient notice of the change. Mr. HENLEY sugges t ed whether thre should not be some special notice. (Hear.) Mr. HEADLAM wcwld have no objeetion to adopt any suggestion that might be made upon the point. The clause was then agreed to. • Upon clause 3, Mr. Wilson proposed to apply the bill to existing com panies by adding, after the word "business," the words, all existing companies at the time carrying on business on unlimited liability before availing themselves of the pro visions of the Act." Mr. HEADLAIII did not object, and The amendment was agrecd to. Mr. FINLAY moved the insertion after the word "share," in the eighth line of the clause, of the words in a very full house that measure was rejected by the House of Commons by a verrlarge majority. I believe 1 that at this moment the House of Commons is engaged in considering another of the meagre es to which the noble earl referred, and it is impassible for me to say at what conclusion that house may arrive. The noble: earl, who seems to think that her Majesty's Government will give their support to all the measures which may be sent up to this house by the House of Commons, has alluded to the measure which may be sent up founded upon Mr. Locke King's proposition to extend the 101. franchise to counties. I can disabuse the noble earl of any impres sion he may have formed by assuring him that such a measure will meet with the most strenuous opposition I can offer to it. (Cheers.) It will be for your lordships if referredeerairnlghtahse present s a h n o y u o ld f t c h o e m m e e u a n s d n e r r ea y t o n ur w c h o i r n as h id t e h r e at n i n o b n l d e session, to express your opinion upon each of them singly a t i n e d ,ited separately, without e a r c e o f r e d r in et g to , e et e t h merit sthosee r o f eachgue questions e p e r s op w o i s t ih which it is supposed they may be connected. With re gard to the bill now before us, although I am not anxious either for its adoption or rejection, I am not prepared to offer any opposition to a measure which immediately affects the composition of the House of Commons, which has been passed by that house, and which appears to me of such intrinsic unimportance that it ought not to be allowed to add to the causes of difference which exist be tween the two houses. If I thought that the existing law afforded an actual security for the independence the sta tion, and the position of those who sit in the House of Commons, and that the adoption of this bill would materi ally diminish the status and position of members of that house, I should hesitate long before I acceded to the pass ing of the measure, although it comes up to us recom mended by a large majority of the House of Commons. But when I find that from time to time the law upon 1 this subject has been relaxed ; that the question has always bees dealt with, not as part of a great measur e of reform, but as a separate measure ; that in the course of the present reign the rigour of the previous provi sions, which required that the qualification of members should consist exclusively of lauded property, has been relaxed and extended to property of every kind ; and when I see that the amount of qualification required is not, in the present day, what can be regarded as a guarantee for the independence of any man who mixes in society, and who has to maintain his position as a member of the House of Commons—such a guarantee of independence as would withdraw him from the exer cise of undue influence—l confess it does not appear to me that the alteration proposed by this bill would effect any real and substantial change in the position of mem bers of the House of Commons. There is one difficulty which I certainly do anticipate, and which I think re quires some consideration before this measure is sane- , tioned. I refer to the probability—or, at all events the possibility—that the absence of any qualification may lead to vexatious contests and to vexatious opposition— (hear, hear)—by putting up on the hustings men of straw, merely with the view of causing vexation and annoyance. (Hear, hear.) I know I may be asked whether such instances have occurred in Scotland, where no qualification for members of Parliament is required— (hear, hear)—and how a system can be defended with reference to English members of Parlia ment which is not considered necessary in the case of Scotch members. Ido not say now whether I think it desirable or not that the bona fide qualification of mem bers of the House of Commons should be of a somewhat higher character. I do not agree with the noble earl who introduced the bill that the requirement of a quali fication is a violation of any of those civil and natural rights which belong to individuals. [Earl Fortescue was understood to say that he did not state that as his own opinion, but that it was entertained by some per sons.] lam gratified to learn that the noble earl does not rely upon that principle, but when I find that the qualification of members of the House of Commons has, from time to time, been altered and relaxed ; that such I steps have been taken, apart from all measures of reform, that the law relating to qualification, such as it is, has in many cases, almost by the connivance of the House of Commons, been evaded; that almost any person may obtain—l do not say whether justifiably or not—a qualification which is not real ; that the fact of qua• lifications beirg so granted, may, owing to biueders or burgling on the part of lawyers, lead compara tively innocent men into the commission of ap parently great offences, which no one thinks very discreditable, but which may expose them to grave censures and animadvert ion, and subject them to heavy penalties—when I find that this is the case, and that the House of Commons, by a considerable majority, have sent up to your lordships a bill with the view of abolishing a requirement which is in many in stances evaded, I think—apart from questions upon which we may have, and have had, considerable diffe rence with the House of Commons, and others which may come before us, upon which it may be necessary , and essential that we should make a stand against dan gerous propositions emanatis g from that assembly—that in point of policy and wisdom it is is not advisable and expedient, it your lordships think this subject is really and substantially immaterial, that for the purpose of keeping upa vain and shadowy app arance of gealifica tion you should unnecessarily put yourselves in opposi tion to the House of Commons upon a question which materially and directly and exclusively concerns the composition of that house. (Hear.) For these reasons, without saying that I should have thought it necessary to introduce a measure of this kind, but finding that it has been introduced, and has received the assent of the House of Commons. and believing that it would be practically innocuous —that, if unproductive of any very considerable benefit, it would be perfectly immaterial, I certainly am not disposed to offer any opposition to the bill, aid I would humbly advise your lordships not to reject it. (Hear, hear.) Toe Duke of NEWCASTLE said, that as the bill ap peared to have been supported by faint praise, and, en other hand, to have been opposed by hesitating dislike, he was anxious to explain that be supported the bill on ' its merits, because he thought it important in itself and in its consequences. The noble duke opposite said he opposed the bin, because he did not think that any grievance existed in consequence of the present state of the law I but it was astonishing that the noble duke should have made such an assertion, when their lord ships had heard that a gentleman was now undergoing imprisonment for a violation of the law, when they hoard from the noble earl who moved the bill that that viola:ion was participated in by nearly one-half of the.members of the House of Commons, and after they had heard the evidence of a noble lard behind him as the results of election committees. (Hear, hear.) He had had himself a great many years' Experience of the House of Commons, and had sat on election commit tees, and he recollected instances of hardship occurring in both directions. Gentlemen notoriously not pos reseed of the qualification required by law bed had their eeats disputed, but bad been seated on petitions; while, on the other Land, gentlemen notoriously pceissessed cf ample qualification, but in whose title lawyers found means to detect certain flaws, had actually been un seated on a technicality of law. The noble earl who op posed the bid considered this matter as part of a great constitutional change, and the bill as a concession to a party advocating greater and more exter sive changes. Now, he could net ce.nceive that this was a great change in the constitution. The present law was not very an cient in its origin, but was introduced by an act of the oth of Queen Anne, under the Harley Government, and was passed for a special par ty purpose. The stock-brokers and merchants cf that day were opposed to the Govern ment, and therefore, to throw the balance in favour of tie Government, the act was passed, essentially in tended to iscelude the trading interests from the House of Cm - tenons, and requiring a landed qualification for members. So the la ‘v remained until about 20 years ago, when a mitigation of the law was introduced, and the same amount of qualification in personal estate was placed on an equal footing with a landed qualification. (Hear, bear.) Still, a great many anomalies remained in respect to this matter at the present moment. The Scotch reembere the members for th© universities, and the eldest sons Of peers, needed not to possess any p: eta niary qualification to sit in the House of Commons. But a greater anomaly than all was that the son cf a knight of the shire was entitled to sit in the House of Corn• wens without a pecuniary qualification, though his father was required to have a pecuniary qualification of 6001 a-year ; and the moment his father died, he would then become disqualified to sit unless be possessed a cer tain amount per annum. (Hear, hear.) Another ano maly was, that no pecuniary qualification was required from a peer to sit in the House of Lords. (Hear, hear.) He attached importance to the present bill, because a law which was frequently evaded inflicted a moral evil on the country, and ought to be repealed as speedily as possible. Again, the maintecance of the prevent qualifi cation for members of the House of Commons excluded c ici: a uht r ae r i air y i iefil o ce n :hte t iaeo h dun a r t . a rl dalliance i a h e y c e the with establishmentw many good members from that house who were unable to been ll certainly threatened h Of eh th il e 'e pr L e e s ' en n' t " had inno f t e h a e r of eth th e o r se h e e v h i e l e s in the event of the existing qualification being Cnoemlmonegheer woad d ir h ed e —fl ie n oTd elY With th b at ink t r h u n f d a n id an ni d senf r w ee it p h ec r t es swin dlers. In the first place, the exi-ti law Pl ex clude characters of that kind, but h n e g slmuld r ' n or t ofse e c a om m m ea e s h u s r , e pbaustseadizotwointhly to e tl n e l j e e H u c t olu e s o e f p to ent tli Lords, which would abolish that privilege froin which the members of the Legis l a ture at present erd arrest e,c d (Hear.) He certainly did not d read the passing j ef the present HI on the ground that the alteration of the law would admit into the House of Commons some artisans and poor men, for he should like to see in that house representa4 ' lives 0 - 1 all classes, and there was not a greater nab-take than to suppose, in respect to the Chartists, or any particular class of men, that it was desirable to ex clude them from the House of Commons. On the con trary, he thought that there would be great safety in admitting to that assembly men of all elatitea He did not think that any fear need be entertained of increas e d corruption in the House cf Commons in consequence of the abolition of the property rptelificatiou. Such poor men as might be introduced into Parliament through tie instrumentality of the present measure would be found, he had no doubt, much more honest and independent than some cf these speculative politicians who got them selves returned for the purpose of supporting any Govern ment from whom they might obtain advantages either for themselves or foreheir friends. (Hear.) He supported the hill, therefore, because he believed it to be a moral measure, because it would effect an improvement of a realty useful and substantial character, and because the existing law, to use the words of a learned judge, was "a mockery, a delusion, and a snare." (Hear, hear.) 1 Earl GRANVILLE—Without wishing or intending 1 to trouble your lordships with many observations, I may be permitted to Ray that tho bill before us has not only En?, concurrence, but the concurrence of those noble lords with whom I have the pleasure of acting in public life. (Hear.) I f eel that I should be merely wasting the time of the hou se if I were to repeat the arguments which CAGLIARI. The Earl of AIRLIE a,ked the noble call the Secre tary for Foreign Affairs whether a final answer had yet been returned by the Neapolitan Government to the demand which had been addressed to it by her Mejesty's Government for compensation on behalf of the engi• nears Park and Watt ? The Earl of MALMESBITRY said that no final answer had as yet reachad him upon the subject, but that he hoped to receive one in the course of next week. Their lordships then adjourned at ten minutes to eight o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. -(YESTERDAY. OUDE, In answer to a griestionfcorn Mr. HOUSMAN, Lord S rANLEY said he believed a private latter had ben received by the Chairman of the Court of Directors fro;n Lord Canning. It was not in his possession, and so far a 3 he was aware no official documents bad reached this country that it was in his power to lay befure the house, REPRESENTATION OF GREENWICII. Mr. 11. FITZROY moved for a copy of tho record of adjudication in bankruptcy again.t Mr. J. Townsond, member for Grlensvich.—Agreed to. COUNTY FRANC RISE BILL. Mr. L. KING, in moving the second reading of this bill, wished to take that the earliest opportunity of stet, ing to the house that the measure contained a similar clause to that which was in the bill brought in by Lord J. Russell in 1854, under the government of Lord Aber deen. That government not only admitted the principle for which he had so many years contended, of extending the franchise to 101. occupiers in counties, but they had also shown an earnest determination t 3 carry out that principle; and accordingly they made its' prominent part cf their bill. It v.ould be in the recollection of the touse that when, in the last parliament, be moved fur leave to bring in ibis bill it was opposed by a small, though cer tainly influential, portion of her Majesty's then govern ment ; but he was afterwards gratified with an explana tion by Earl Granville in the House of Lards that the government did not object to the principle, but only con sidered that the measure was drafted in such a manner that they could not make the alterations which they deemed to 'be desirable in it. Seeing, therefore, that nearly all the members of the late government had been members of Lord Aberdeen's government, he felt that the best course for him to adopt, as they admitted the principle, was to take the very words of the clause in the Aberdeen government bill. (Hear.) He need not remind the house that right hon. gentlemen who now occupied the front opposition benches did not object to the bill. The noble lord the member for Tiverton was a member of Lord Aberdeen's government, and he not only ap proved of the principle of the bill, but must have been a party to the very words which, as ho had said, he took (rem the Lill cf Lord Aberdeen's government. The right hon. gentleman the member for Halifax was in the same position, and if he remembered ri g htly th e r i g h t h on. baronet had to make some apology to his constituents at Halifax for not having before given his support to the bill. The name of the right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle was on the back of Lord Aberdeen's bill, and ever since he bad given it an honourable and consistent support ; and so bad the noble lord the member for London. It was matter of great satisfaction to him that in the course of the many debates they had had no one made any serious objection to the principle of the bill. It was admitted that the class to whom be proposed to extend the suffrage was alto .gether unobjectionable. In fact, the political capacity of the class was admitted by the Reform. Bill of 1832, which recognised the right of the 101. householders to the franchise when they resided in certain localities. His bill only sought to extend that right to the same class wherever they were to be found ; and if that was objected to, it could only be on the principle that the capacity resided in the locality and not in the persons. But it bad been urged that he ought not to deal with the reform of the county representation alone. His answer was, that if he had assumed to regulate the borough franchise as well as the county, ho would have been told that be was dealing with too large a question, and therefore he proposed this moderate measure, the only objection that could be urged to which was that it was to small. If they were to wait till a large and comprehensive measure of parliamentary reform were introduced ho feared they would have to wait a long time, for the tone and temper of Parliament was not favourable to a large measure at present—(cheers) ; and he would reenind those gentlemen who cheered that it wns better to accept of present legi letion on this subject than to wait till the arrival of a period cf great excitement, and when a measure of reform could not be calmly considered. In some remarks upon the bill when it was last before the house, the Chancellor of the Ex chequer complained that the boroughs of the kingdom were better represented than the counties. He thought that complaint came with no good grace from the right hoe. gentleman, fur th e county of Buckingham, of which he veal a member,mowatdeihsihnegruaipshreesdented, with w a it p h op a ul a po pulation of 165 , 0 00, returned 11 members,while the division of Surrey hi tion of nearly 600,000 members, only sent sev en mem bers. Or if they excluded the borough representation, it would be found that Bucks, with 115,000 inhabitants, returned nine members, while the west riding of York shire, with 860,000 inhabitants, sent only two. N ow in other respects there might be ground for the coin plaint. It was remarkable Oa: the cou n ty f ranchise in creasedT cll yea e; e s r a y g s 0 1 o wiYas compared with the boron ; h f ranchise there were 503,812 county ate ors ; there were now 505,988, so that the increase in the interval was little more than 2,000 electors ; while in the boroughs the electors had increased from 368,822 to 439,046 "and also the amount of all debts and liabilities of the said limited joint-stock company, on the 31st day of De cember immediately preceding, signed by tsvc , diroctors and the manager." After a brief conversation the amendment was with draw-a. Mr. II ASSARD proposed an amendment in the clause with a view to require the word "limited" to be printed legibly at the top of every.receipt given for any deposit male with a banking company. Mr. LOWE explained that the object of this amendment would be fully attained by the 30th clause of the Limited Liability Act of last session, which was to be extended to joint-stock banks. After some conversation the amendment was negatived and the clause agreed to, as was also clause 4. Mr. WEGUE LIN said, there was an essential difference between banking and ordinary business which called for modification in the principle of limited liability as applied to banks. It was desirable as a matter of policy that some legislative guarantee should be taken for the credit and stability of banks, the functions of which in some respects resembled those of a trust. The peculiarity of a banker 'e business was that he held almost all his money payable on demand, and his very safety rested on the forbearance of his creditors. There ought, therefore, to be some security for the creditor in the event of the insolvency of the bank- The hon. member concluded by moving the addition of the following clause :—" If a banking company constituted on the principle of limited liability shall become insolvent, all and every the proprietors for the time being of any ill' terest or share in the capital thereof are individually liable in their persons and property to be called neon W contribute for or towards the payment, satisfaction, or discharge of the debts, liabilities, and engagements of the said company, not only such part or parts of all and every share or shares held in the capital of the said company as shall not have been heretofore called for and paid up, but also all such further sums of money, not exceeding the amount of the share or interest held by such proprietors respectively in the capital of the company, as shall be re qui•ite and necessary to pay, satisfy, and discharge the debts, engagements, and liabilities of of the company." Mr. T. HANKEY hoped that his hon. friend would not press this clause, because it was entirely opposed to the principle of the Sill, which was to leave every one to pr tcct himself, and not to attempt to protect them by leg's' Wien. Mr. CHEETHAM also opposed this insertion of the slause. .. Mr. HEADLAM could not accept the clause, because it was quite at variance with the principle of the measure.. Mr. CROSSLY said that the clause was unnecessary, because it was already the practice of joint-stock banks to , call up only about half the amount of the shares. The committee divided, when the numbers were : For the clauss 4O Against it 123 Majority On the que;tion v tbat the CHAIRMAN leave the chair, Mr. COWAN said that, notwithstanding the high an• thority in favour of the Bill, he doubted whether it was one that deserved the approval of the House, and he would move that it be read a second time that day six months!. (Laughter.) Mr.WILSON had intended to move as an instruction to the committee that the provisions of the bill should be In altered as to include insurance companies, but he found on looking more carefully at the bill that, in order to cart/ out his object, it would be necessary to introduce special clauses which might be inconsistent and inconvenient in * measure relating to banks. He wished, however, to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he would have any objection to introduce a bill for the purpose of placing insurance companies upon a more satisfactory footing. (Rear.) After a very patient inquiry before a committee - n 1853 the late Government bad framed a measure on the subject, which was introduced last year, and they had since prepared another bill, which, had they remained in office, they intended to submit to the house. Ho thought it much more advisable that a measure on such a subject should be introduced by the Government than by a private member, and he wished to know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer would take up the question I The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that the subject was undoubtedly one of considerable import' ante, and under ordinary circumstances he would bays been happy to meet the views of the right hon. gentleman , bat in the present state of public business he could not undertake to bring forward a bill. Mr. LOWE observed that such a bill as was indicated, by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wilson) mi g ht b e co mprise d in ono or two clauses consolidating the various measures relating to the subject. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER r epeated that in the present state of public business, he could not promise to prepare such a bid. The house then r:sumed. DRAUGHTS ON BANKERS LAW AMENDMEN T BILL. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the second read' ing of this bill, stating that it was his intention to add clauses which he trusted would meet the wishes of al; parties. He should move to-morrow that the bill should be committed pre forma, and he should postpone to re commit the bill on a future day. Mr. GLYN trusted it would be understood that all/ question arising on the principle of the bill might be full discussed upon the committal of the bill. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL —Certainly. The bill was then read a second time. The Law of Property Amendment Bill was read a second time, with the understandi ng that the discussion shoul d be taken on the motion for going into committee on the bill. WILLS OF BRITISH SUBJECTS ABROAD. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved for leave to bring in a bill to amend the law relating to the wills of British subjects resident or domiciled abroad, and to the granting of administration to the estate and effects of such persons dying intestate. He said that the bill was substantially the same as was brought in and passed through that house during the lest session. He should not trouble the house with any statement at the present moment, and the di' cession might be taken on the second reading. Leave was given to bring in the bill. IRREMOVABLE PAUPERS. Mr. ESTCOURT moved for the appointment of a select committee on the operation of the Act of the 9th and 1001 Vict., chap. 66, which enacts that no poor person shall be removable who shall have resided five years in any parish; and of the Acts of the 10th and 11th Vi e t., c h a p. 110, and the 11th and 12th Vict., chap. 110, which enact that the relief given to such irremovable persons shall be charged upon the common fund of the union. He said he had re ceived deputations complaining of the operation of these acts, and he thought it desirable that the matter should be full investigated. Mr. BOUVERIE said it was most desirable that the proposed committee should be appointed. The act expire d next session, and before renewing it Parliament ought to consider the principles upon which it was framed, as well as the effect of its operation. Sir J. PAKINGTON hoped the committee would b e e . in mini the interests of the poor as well ac those of th e ratepayers. (Hear, hear.) Mr. ESTCOURT, in reply to a question from Sir John Shelley, stated that he did not intend to suspend, during the inquiry by the select committee, the progress of tb a• bill which he had laid on the table relative to an aria" went of the Poor Law. H o was w illi ng, h owever, to 1,0 , ". pone the second reading of that measure for a fortnigh t ' The proposed inquiry would no t i nc l u d e th e ques tion the removal of Scotch and Irish paupers, except where the parties had resided for five years in any parish. The motion was then agreed to. TOTTENHAM-COURT-ROAD ACCIDENT. On the motion of Sir J. SHELLEY, a return was ordered of the ver lict and present men t, an d official report of x f • Marsh Nelson, architect, m a d e t o M r . W a kl e y, coroner o, Middlesex, of the inquest on six persons killed at the 1 101. dent in Tottenbarn•court-road. COUNTY RATES (IRELAND). The select committee on this subject was nominated !! follows :---Mr. Macartney, Sir Robt. Fergu son, Sir Brocu" Bridges, Colonel French, Mr. Miles, Mr. Cumming Brno° , Mr. Gladstone, Mr. Fortesene, Mr. G. A. Hamilton, I V . ' Henry Herbert, Mr. George Cli ve , M r. Wilson, M r' egan. THE KENSINGTON-GORE ESTATE. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved f or leave to introduc: a bill for releasing the lands of the Cc' al t . missioners of the Exhibiti on o f 1851 , upon t h e repaYine!l of moneys gr an t e d i a a id o f th e i r f en d s. Thi s bill, he SO. d was the one to which he referred the other night for (lir solving the partnership between that house and the F , ." 1; bition Commicioners in respect of the l an d purchased s. Kensington-Gore. Ho did not intend to wake any state' ment at present, but if he obtained leave to introduce bill, he would by command present some papers WI:Is l a would be very convenient for a discussion on the secO n reading. The motion was agreed to. GALWAY HARBOUR. Mr. HAMILTON obtained leave to i n t ro d uce a bill ° amend the Galway Harbour and Port Act ([853). PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND). Lord NAAS obtained leave t o b r i ng i n a bill to continuo the Peace Pfeservation (Ireland) Act, 185 g. MARRIAGE LAW AMENDMENT BILL. int o On the motion of Lord B URY, th e or d er f or go ing in` committee on this bill was read and discharged. The house adjourned at 1 o'clock. • r A DVERTISEMENT.j —Holloway's Ointment and Pi lla have again Cured an Ulcerated Leg, after every other, Remedy had failed.—Henry Winton, of Riokroell.° worth, was for a long time an object of horror to frieude, owing to his predisposition to ulce rou s W el ' He tried every remedy likely to benefit him, but they. turned out of no avail ; finally, hie leg became so cf!f t ; pletely covered with ulcers that amputation of the lio appeared to be the only thi ng lik e l y to save h i s l i fe ; „t this juncture he had recourse to tiolloway's and Pills, and in four m on th s, b y us i ng these reroeu'r ni "' he WaR cured, to th e as t on i s h ment of all who knew bi—; —Sold by all vendors o f medicines, and at Prol e° Holloway's Establishment, 244, Strand, London. BIRTHS. AuxExthe Is©v.s - On the Bth inst., a t E a li ng, th e w if o of --- Albert Aitkens, of a son. PALMER—On the 9th inst., a t 5 , St . J o h n ' s -t err ace, -- ne - enee park, the wife of J. N. Palmer, Esq., of a son. ffed ST. AUBYN - On the 7th l es t ., at Shackle we ll , Airs. ,03- o St. Aubyn, of twin sons. l l ' WHITE -On the Bth inst., at Bath, the wifo of Alg e-rn -° White, Esq., of a daughter. DExt—lronowar---0 3 : t A he lt 9 it th l i A nst G , E at B. the district ehnflich to St. Peter's, Notting-hill, Stanley, younger sou of der Dent, Esq., of Str. atha m -hill, Surrey, to Annie, th d c• daughter of M. Holloway, Esq., of Notting-hill. FOSTER—FOOTNER—On the 9th inst , at the Abbey —.AL.& ( 1, relit Romsey, Richard Foster, Esq., of . Manor-road, Steo""of hill, and 41), Moorga.te-street, to Jane, eldest daughter George B. Footner, Esq., of Romsey, Hants. DEATHS. lst° ADES—On the 7th inst., at Oakham, William Ades, Esq' 57* Clerk of the Peae3 for the county of Rutland , aged ALDERSON• On the 7th inst , Mr. James Simps on Alde° of Blook-green lane, Han:mersmith. BRO I N w IN i G tr), Ownralttlhieam9tAhbibuesyt;, Essat xtl:emir•se.sisduebnbcorii of 13Cr°01°I1:11°-1 A ing, aged 90. • DICE— On the 3(1 April, killed, at the assault ou Jba ns i ,W o 1'3 4 George Douglas Dick, Lieutenant Bombay Engineer o, 23, eldest son of the late John Campbell Dick, ESCI., gal Civil Service. Foann—On the 3d inst. , at Has ti n gs, Fran cis Fordo, VOq" aged Si. .ONDON • Printed and Published by MIJRDO 0 of 1.4 . c. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sus oce• • t .: 112, Strait', in the Precinct of tba Savoy, in the Oct" of Middlesex, Fri , luy, June 11, 1858. told every e, Ad niss; at ►be Cramer C R. equalled :rota tel traordin dour. 2. a-Moti and to eau be The Sax o ccasion: the ev en 43 ileum. H] ircllqus4sl] C . _ .adraissim ultroduce Zunaeroul Getnrnenc // Mk, Is. ST. at Three I)4 eriPtil Juveniles DR- • 3, a L ECTURI guarter baL - K,tif A DE ;74 , 2k.. st uittd ; fort ducted bValentiny greatest a ettaaLas 1 Travtata," CM t th e 44 oisto be t4arket. bi R rA the iqtrGwri c r-WALE 9 t he lion . B everal 3 ta ° , lll e.-And "e Preser Cr • dtetssioi te l , a A °n l 14fin ; gle tic • area =artart every 6_MATIRIteg -% the Hon' flop n, i :0 ::: : ir, The RIM k h „_ corn .."'ely Of Rh 4 of Frith . Address 11 l,,Nrest ' N 'an ........______ IVIET pi, AS 11, tondo an, , on adv Pollc ?inured wit! b eing deduct 1 4 A W Nonce is ] or the Deed o 1 4',„1n be held No on DA 1 a n on Precise re Lord Hie liye etoTs and ;.I,?n will be r ,4He Director ‘.tilatii ofti Acorr A 11 0 - Ticp; D yltA VE the Polici " h ase are Insui 7 th litione tm Total 1 • Annu Claims t,.. l4 Surances a "ts, and xi c 0 ,,...Pp1y , at tl — PUY, 7,1 Rank Mt SOCIE' h.. e d, I 837. • ,--, °can and itti del es of ass ku r poe with' lb nal prenit i et d eath be 't trace. ~IIE "131130.1vere4 1 XD M , Renvi . attioel Rir Jo hn Elliot Pau. l'rofbraor J• Ellk Y om• Gil li tl e next 4 Y. 1860. Polley tak en A. , 's %It • 1835 1841 11145 1 848 6 18 55 Thu ioitow - tional Life l 'he Skid 2 ve Wo- third Years.lts subsai t )4e hundr About he numb aue of. " e a its n. mss e r142:811 142, Stran BECK Tg E Just Pubam SELF kPil On the 00 the to rp, vicious Ple r .7. 4 ,tilood r e n it s 8 on ii —u a•PY exa 'N)l4htts: ka t , , uenlat. ...eitth er 4 ,,Deth eea .48 es 4 er h i , ea r hav e oth e r and p D iv ..; class tqteuliviy th e r is inlYsic Rlth . It D iu ie abso o ut rAles 0 e eurrii *lv he he; 4 Id h ue Mil ' th e , °will ( ther e it FZerne; tS.' 3 ' d vl -I. vit 14 • 4 1 nhdt e d rd. T ea he 4 1 ' t i tt4 _ .re ulator 910,u_ viVoi M G.racioi bill to Jane 2 Tickets Pluare, M 11