The Sun. — London, England, 1858-07-07 00:00:00

MPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.—(YESTERDAY.) The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clock. THE JEW BILL. The Duke of MARLBOROUGH gave notice that when this bill was in committee he should move the in sertion of a clause prohibiting persona of the Jo Nish persuasion from giving advice to the Crown with respect to Ecclesiastics' appointments. Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition complaining of the absurdity of the present rail way system, and praying for amendment. Tee noble lord also presented petitions from Manchester, Edinburgh, and other plscee, prayin g for an amendment of the law with res p ect to the rights of married women. The B shop of OXFORD presented petitions from Fenny Stratford, and other places, against the abolition of church rates. ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION BILL. The Earl of HARDWICKE brought up the report of amendments on this bill, and explained to their lordships the nature of the several additions that had been made to the measure, relating to the sale, purchase, transfer &e. of ecclesiastical estates, in committee. The noble earl concluded by moving that the report be received. Lord RAYENSWORTEI moved the insertion of the following amendment :—" That no appointment or ex change of ecclesiastical patronage under the provi,iou contained in the Act of the 6th and 7th years of King Wm. IV., chapter 77, section Ist, shall be carried into eff-ct without the cousent in writing of the bishop of the diocese within which such ecclesiastical patronage so proposed to be appointed or exchanged shall be situate." The noble lord stated at some length his objections to various parts of the bill, but he c implained more espe cially of the obstruction, be might almost say the spolia tion, of 24 livings, involving revenue to the amount of 16,000/. from the diocese of Durham, to improve the almost unendo wed sees of Ripon and Manchester. Such a proceeding, he contended, was contrary to consti tutional as well as ecclesiastical rights. The Earl of CHICHESTER said that the ecclesiasti cal commission acted not only in conformity with the provisions of the act of the 6 and 7 Wm. IV., but with a view to what they believed to be for the benefit of the several dioceses, and the spiritual welfare of the people. The Bishop of DURHAM said that as he was per sonally concerned in this matter, he disl not wish to say anything, but he might be permitted to remark, that it was extremely inconsenient to have a large portion of the livings of one diocese transferred to another. if it were possible to avoid that inconvenience it would be extremely desirable, bat as being personally concerned, he should prefer leaving it to some one of their lordships to devise means for . that purpose than to suggest any himself. (Hear.) The Earl of DERBY observed that the law under which the ecclesiastical commissioners acted passed iu 1136, and that act gave them power to recommend schemes for the distribution of patronage amongst the different dioceses, so as to make it as nearly as possible equal to the magnitude and importance of the dioceses. He believed that all the bishops who were concerned in the changes which had been effected were appointed since that date, so that there was no ground for the possibility of complaint on the part of any individual bishop. He was not arguing in favour of any plan. He only said that the ecclesiastical commissioners acted under what had been the law of the land for 22 years, and that it became neces sary under that act to assign some amount of patronage to Ike new sees. His noble friend compared the import ance of Durham with the dioceses of Ripon and Man cheater. He agreed in the principle laid down by the right rev. prelate, that it was as far as possible desirable that the patronage of each see should consist of benefices within the see, and that they should not takeaway the patronage of one bishop to give it to another. But the case of these three sees of Durham, Ripon, and Man chester. was rather peculiar. He had a list placed in his hands that morning, which showed at all events that, if patronage was to be distributed with regard to the magnitude and importance of the dioceses, no great equality prevailed even after the distribution was made to the sees of Ripon and Manchester. The population in the bishopric of Durham was 701,000, in that of Ripon it was 1,033,000, in that of Manchester 1,430,000, or very nearly double the population of Durham. The beneficed in the see of Durham amounted to 242 ; in Ripon, to 273 ; in Manchester, to 315. But with regard to patron age, the position of the dioceses was very different, for in Durham there were 70 livings worth 33,0001., where as in Ripon there were only 47 livings worth 10,0001., and in Manchester only 36 livings worth 9,0001. It the Ecclesiastical Cemmissioners were to carry out the prin ciple of the act of 1836, they must subtract from the pa tronage of the one diocese to make up for the inadequate patronage assiegned to Manchester. If his noble friend intended to introduce any provision of the kind indicated in his proposition, he should move for a repeal of the provision of the act 6 and 7 Wm. IV., under which the Ecclesiastical Commissioners acted. The proposition of his noble friend went so far as to say that the bishop should not be deprived of his patronage at all, for it would require the consent of the bishop. This would render valueless to a great extent the power of the cow misaioners. Who were the Ecclesiastical Commissioners! Tney were the body of the bishops themselves. And it was by the consent of the body of bishops themselves that the arrangement was made. If they referred a por tion of their business to a committee of three laymen, that only indicated the confidence they placed in the juilgruentand discretion of these three laymen. He could not consent to the proposal of his noble friend, the effect of which would be to defeat the power of the commis sioners. The commissioners had only the power of fram ing schemes. They must receive thesanction of an order in council. He believed that, practically, it would make no difference ; but if his noble friend was satisfied with a proposition of this kind, tbatnoalteration should be made with regard to the distribution of the patronage of the bishop without a month's; notice being given to the bishop, he should assent. That would give the bishop an oppor tunity of laying soy remonstrance on his t art before the ecclesiastical commissioners, and also of bringing his case before the privy council and Asking them not to agree to the scheme of the commissioners. If his noble friend put this proposition in that shape he should be willing to introduce it into the bill, but he could not conseie: to give the bishop an absolute veto on the decision of the commissioners. Earl GREY said there was great inconvenience in transferring the patronage of one diocese to another, the bishop of which was living at a distance, and without that knowledge of the wants of the population which the bishop residing in the diocese must possess. It there f,re his noble friend pressed his amendment he should support hint.. After a feR words from the Earl of Powis and the Duke of MABLBOICOUGH, Their lordships divided— For the amendment Against it 3S Majority against it —26 The LOUD CHANCELLOR proposed alter clause 38 to 'hart new claiHes, gthe olject of which wa3 to give power to the tru4teels to raise money fur the purpose cf enfra' chiming or buying reversion?. The ClAUdell Wen, all,ed to. The Bishop of OXFORD then provosM clauses for th e purp,se of endowing the chancellor-hips of the E rl of DERBY thought the sutifct required more tin aeration ; f )1. it WAS eAlelltatOd ?hat the sum required would be 5,0001. a year. It would be better to let the question by raised in the 11.)use of Commune. After a short con versatmn, the right rev. pr e la te post poned the matter till the third reading. The report was then re ceived. PORTENDIC AND A LEREDA CONVENTION BILL. This bill waR read a second time. eIIURCLIES, &c. (IRELAND) BILL. nig bill via.% rend a pee nd time. PUBLIC GROUNDS AND PLAYGROUNDS BILL. This bill passed through committee. JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES' AMENDMENT BILL. Thi+ bill passed through committee. MARRIAGES (MOSCOW, TAHITI, AND NINGPO) BILL. This bill paused through committee. COUNTY COURTS DISTRICT BILL. On the report of amendments, Lord BROUGHAM observed that the amounts sued for in the county courts during the past year had been no lees than 700,0001., a large proportion of which had been recovered. Of ~ u itm for sums between 201. and 501., which might be tried either in the county courts or in the superior courts, no fewer than 10,000 cases had been disposed of in the former, and only 2,000 in the latter mode. Under these circlimstar ces he thought the salaries of the judges ought to be eqnal , sed at the highest rate now received, namely, 1,5001. a year. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that it would not he pr:esible to equalise the salaries of the judges while the labour they had to do was so unequal. Some of those learned gentlemen were absolutely overw. : rked ; hot from a paper which had been furnished him by Lord Wensleydale be found there were some who did not sit on snore than 45 days in the year. The object of the present bill was to render the dirtribut!on of the business more even ; and he recommended the noble lord to wait and see whether the work when so equalised would in each case be so considerable as to render it desirable to raise the salaries of some of the judges. The report was then received. CHINESE PASSENGER ACT (1.555) AMENDMENT BILL. On the third reading, Lord BROUGHANI. doubted whether the bill went quite far enough, but there could be no question that it would effect a great improvement. From information he had received, partly from private sources and partly f ro m public documents, he wan enabled to say that the persons on board the R,gina Cesli were not free negroes, but were slaves who hat been released for the purpose of being embarked as free emigrants. They came, i n p o i n t of feet, from a well-known place called Monnab, the chief of which was one of the most determi ne d s l ave sellers who ravaged the neighbouring Country. The Earl of DERBY regretted that the noble lord should not have made the statement he had just done, while bin noble friend the Foreign secretary v , 7as in th e house, b ecause hi s no bl e friend entertained quite a diffe rent opinion as to the persons on board the vessel in question. H e (L or d D er b y ) was no t sa yi n g anything in favour of the French emigration system ; but be understood that his noble friend had last evening shown the noble lord a paper from which it appeared that the persons on board the Regina Cceli bad been collected front Monrovia, in Liberia, and not from the district to which the noble lord had referred. Lord BROUGHAM—The paper treated the Regina Coali as a slaver. The bill wag Una read a third time and passed. HAINAULT FOREST LL (ALLOTMENT OF COMMONS) 81. - This bill was read a third time and pa. ,, sed. DURHAM COUNTY P BILLALATINE JURISDICTION This bill was read a third time and passed. RAILWAYS ACT (IREL AND) CONTINUANCE BILL. This bill was read a second time. Their lordships rose tt five minutes before eight. HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o'clock. MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS BILL. On the motion for going into committee on this bill, Mr. T. DUNCOMBE asked the house to postpone the further consideration of the bill. It slipped through a second reading is consequence of the mistake of the hon, member for Edinburgh (Mr. Black) in nut moving at the proper time a specific motion for its rejec:ion. He moved the committal of the bill this day six months. The bill was disliked generally throughout the country, tLough it was euppont:ti by the Colleges of Surgeons and Physicians. Mr. COWPEI said the petitions that had been presented in its favour showed that a large number of the medical profession approved of it. Mr. HEADLAM. would support the motion for going into committee, but he thought it would be impossible to pass the bill this session, unless a spirit of conciliation was displayed. Mr. HADFIELD thought there was not much chance of the bill passing this session. Mr. WALPOLE considered the house should go into committee on the bill. If the objections to the bill could not then be got over, he would be prepared t.o suggest the best course to be pursued. After some remarks from Lord ELCHO and Mr. Bld.tic, the house divided. The numbers were:— For going into committee A gainst it . 8 Majority The house then went into committee. Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to. On clause 3, Mr. T. DUNCONIBE suggested that this, and the clauses up to 41, which established or provided for the etpenses of the act, should be postponed till the com mittee had disposed of clause 41. It was right the house and the country should know what would be the cost of this " quackery," for such the bill was. If the forms of the house precluded his postponing them in a lump, he should move the postponement clause by clause. He moved the postponement of olause S. Mr. COWPER said the clauses were so framed thri.t no demand would be made on the public exchequer for its working. This was not a fair way to attack the bill, and he hoped the hon. gentleman would not press his motion and thereby impede the progress of the bill. Mr. AY RTON asked his hon. friend not to press his motion. He had ascertained from many members of the medical profession that the profession genera'dy were favourable to the measure. He believed the bill would be advantageous to the people. Mr. HATCHELL said the medical ptofesfion in Ire land were favourable to the passing of the moasure. He hoped the bon, gentleman would withdraw his motion. . . Mr. %V. WILLIAMS said it was of the utmost im portance the committee should know the expense of working the bill, and if it wan to be taken from the public purse. He had heard an enormous gum men tioned se likely to be required over and above the fees to be taken under it. Every bill (with the exception of the Attorney-General for Ireland's last bill) for improv- ing anything laid hold of the public taxes. He hoped the hon. member for Fins.bury would press his motion. If the medical profession wanted a bill of this kind, let them pay for it, and not the public. Mr. BLACK considered there would be abundance of money to pay the expenses from the fees that would be received under the bill. Mr. HADFIELD complained that the bill excluded the professors of hydropathy and homes vathy. Mr. T. BUNCOMBE said he should press his motion unless he had an answer to his question. Mr. WALPO LE said he agreed with the hon. member that the public money ought not to be charged with any of the expenses of this measure. As he read the bid the clauses would throw a charge on the exchequer, and he thought they ought to give the colleges power to im pose fees sufficient to pay the expenses. The whole frame-work of the bill proceeded on the assumption that the fees would be sufficient to pay the expenses, and clause 41 proposed to allow the Government to advance sufficient money until the fees were enough to pay the expenses. He thought it would have been better if the 41st clause had not been inserted, and when they came to that clause he should oppose it. Mr. T. BUNCOMBE asked the hon. member (Mr. Cowper) it he still persisted in his intention to retain the 41st clause? Mr. COWPER said he would omit the clause after what had been said by the Horne Secrotary._ _ .... The amendment Was then withdrawn and the clause was agreed to. Clauses 4, 5, 6,7, S, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 11 were agreed to. On clause 15, Mr. HEAD LAM moved an amendment, that no prac titionerF,, but such as hail passed an examination at the Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons, and rec.ived a licenca to practise, should be permitted to register them selves under the bill. Mr. \VALPOLE opposed the amendment. The committee divided. The numbers were— For the amendment Against it Majority -117 The clause was then agreed to. Clauses Itll to 25 were also agreed to. On clause 26. Mr. 11EADLAM moved an amendment to add a pro viso that no person should be erased Irom the register for having adopted any particular theory. The amendment was agreel to, and the clause as amended was ordered to stand part of the Hi, Clauses 27 to 40 were agreed to. Clouse 41 was struck out of the bill. On c:aue 45, Mr. HADFIELD rnr,ved the insertion of the following proviso :—" 1' hat within 12 months after the granting of such charter to the College of Physicians of London, any fellow, member, or licenciate of the Royal Col no, of PhyNiciacts of Edinburgh, or of the Queen's College of Pnysicians of Ireland, who may be in practice as a physician in any part of the United Kingdom called Eogla te d, and who may be dePirous of becoming a fellow or member of such College of Physicians of Eng land, shall be at liberty to do so, and be entitled to receive the diploma o[ the said college, and to be admitted to all the rights and privileges thereunto ap pertaining, on the payment of a registration fee of pounds to the said college, and shall be free from all stamp duty, in case the exiting stamp duty shall have been a'ready paid on the diploma held by such physician from the Coll ge of Physicians to which tie th-lougs." Tl:e proviso, subject to the Chancellor of the Exche quer's approva', was agreed to. The remaining clauses after some verbal amendments were agreed to. . . . _ Mr.IIEADLAM moved the insertion of the f.•llow ing clause in lien of clue ld :—After the passing of this act the medical registrars shad, under the authority if the respective branch coun Lids, require proof from every person who applies to be registered as a physician, and aho is not qualified to ho registered as such undsr the pros i alums f d•ction 15 of this act, that be has completed 'he age of 24 years, and that he has graduated in arts and medicine-, or in medicine, @fter having passed the exami natiunk for a in arts in some university of the United Kingdom, or in some foreign university approved by the general council, or that his case come within Buena spcial exception establi-hed by the general council, and that he - has been examined by and has re• ceived letters testimonial as a physician from one ut the Royal College@ of Physicians of England, Scotland, or Ireland, and has been eurulltd as a member of that col lege. • Mr WALPOLE opposed the clause, and it was nega tived without a division. Mr. B. HOPE moved the insertion of the following clause : - "It shall, notwithstanding anything here cm tained, be lawful for her Majesty, by charter, to grant to the It)yal College of Surgeons of England pow-r to institute and hold examinations for the pur pose of testing the fitness of persons to practise as dentists, who !nay be desirous of being so examined, and to grant certificates of such titness." The cause was agreed to. The house then resumed, and the bill was ordered to be reported to-morrow (Wednesday). COPYHOLD ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. This bill passed through committee. CHELSEA BRIDGE ACTS AMENDMENT SILL. The committee on this bill was postponed till Thurs day next. Lied .T. MANNERS said he intended to omit the 2d elau,e of the bull, and to alter the 3d so as to make ho foot toll cease when the capital of 110,000/., ogether with the interest at 4 plc cent , should have been paid. CLERK OF PETTY SESSION'S BILL. The house went into committee on this bill, which occupied the remainder of the sitting up to 4 o'clock. The house resumed at 6 o'clock. CIIIIRCEI RITES. Mr. ALCOCK. gave notice that on Thursday next he would ask le. tve to bring iu a bill on the subject of the voluntary c,mtribution of church rates, CHARITABLE BEQUESTS. Mr. LEFROY asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if the Government intended to bring in a bill this session to amend the Cr , aritable fleync.ts Act? Mr. S. FITZGERALD said many reprenentations had been made to the Government on the subject, but it was quite out cf the question to introduce a bill this sea ion with the hope of carrying it MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS. Mr. GILPIN asked the Home Secretary if was his intention to extend the provisions of the Corrupt Prac tices Prevention Act to municipal elections I Mr. WALPOLE said he should not tiring in a bill on the subject this year, but be Iva+ strongly of opinion that the principle of the act ought to be extended to municipal elections. THE BOROUGH OF BELFAST. Mr. MACARTNEY inquired of the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether any period had been fixed to com mence the inquiry into the affairs of the borough of Belfast, and woo were the commissioners appointed to hold such inquiry ? Mr. S. FITZGERALD said no time bad been fixed, but he hoped the inquiry would commence as soon as the circuits were completed. The commissioners were Mr. Major and (as was understood) Mr. Lockinger, both gentlemen of great emi nence a t th e b ar , an d th ey wou ld hare the assistance of an actuary of etninencp. WANT OF SURGEONS FOR. TEIE TROOPS IN INDIA. Ur, S. LiERBEIGT said he wished to aek a qaestiog E SUN, of the Government. It watt stated in the accounts from India that many of our-4 , -giment-v- were proceeding up country without any European r iedical practitioners with them. He understood ther.‘a . 4' as the grektest difE culty in getting medical student , to offer for the army employment ; and this no doubt. a; ..ose from no improve ment having been made in rt . s? ct of pay and otb'r things. If their position were IrL;proved, and they 'got a better status, the employment would attract better class of students. He wished to as k whetaer it was likely that before long any plan for acc omptlshin,-.4 this object would receive the sanction of the (ic,Ttrr.m-eflt, and be promulgated! Gen. PEEL said there certainl ._Yb . a d b een diffi culty i n procuring the number of surgeon xecequired. A pla n suc h as bad been alluded to had 1- /tea con , idered, and for warded to the Treasury for ardrohaticn. SITTING OF PARIA II I V LENT DURING THE SUMMER -1 1101 1 / 4 1- ,Tas. Mr. FORSTER gave notice t 'oat he would on Friday call the attention of the hOOBO . to the inconvenience of protracting the session dur.o, g the summer months. SERVICES OF THE 'l' {OO7. S AT ALUMBAGH. Col. SYKES moved f r% copy of a letter from Lord .nth April, 18.55, with its enclosed Canning, dated the 3r A Lieut.-Gen. Sir J. Outram, G.C.8., cdoepscyroibfiangretphoertsefrron vices rendered by the force under that nffictr'' comma ad during the occupation of Alumbagh. 'The return wasordered. THE SLAVE TRADE. Mr. I T -OTT asked the Chancellor of the Exchequir when 'ae proposed to bring on the slave trade estimates' T.'ne CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that depended upon the India Bid. Assuming that the bill was read a third time on Thursday, he should propose to go into supply on Friday morning. IRISH EDUCATION. Mr. DEASY . asked whether the voto as to Irish edu cation would be taken on Friday next ! The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that ♦ote was in No. 4 paper, which the committee were now considering, and therefore he could not doubt that it would come on on Friday. The vote to which the hon. member for Gateshead (Mr. Hutt) hal drawn his atten tion was in paper No. 5. THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA. (No. 3) BILL. On the motion that this bill, as amended, be considered, Mr. VIREGSON moved that the c ,nsideration of the bill be. postpo, ed until Thursday. Lord STANLEY said he was in the hands of the house, add he understood that the house was in favour of pro. ceeding. (Hear, hear.) There was nothing before the house but the original bill and Come amendments that had been in print for several days. Sir H. RAWLINSON complained that, from the ar rangement of the bill, it was difficult to find tha amend ments. The motion was negatived. Lord STANLEY moved, in the stead of clause 31, to insert a clause repealing certain clauses of the 16 and 17 Vic., cap. 95, so tar as the same apply to the admission or appointment of persons to the civil service of the East India Company. _ Sir J. G - RA. - H.A.M said he was very unwilling to ob struct any arrangement of the noble lord the President of the Board of Control. He bad, in his humble opinion, with so much candour and wisdom, amended this bill, that he was very unwilling to suggest any doubt as to the alteration he now proposed, but still he thought that the amenment he now proposed would not be an im provement. It was proposed to leave out clause al and to insert other clauses to the effect that the minister, in making appointments to the civil service, should, in stead of asking the advice of the Council, ask the advice of the Civil Service Commissioners. He thought that the advice of the Council as to the appointment of civil servants was the best advice he could have. (Hear.) It was now left open to the minister to consult the commis sioners before bringing the matter before the Council ; bet by the proposed clause there would be an ouster of the Council and a substitution of the Commissioners. The hon. member for Devonport (Sir E. Perry) had said on a former evening that he (Sir J. Graham) was the organ of the East India Company. He knew not what he had said or done to justify that observation. He had never hesitated to express his opinion that the Court of Directors bad served the country in an eminent degree, and that they deserved the gratitude of the British pub lic. He believed that they had been mainly concerned in conquering our empire in the East. He begged to inform the bon, member that he had not been in re ceipt of the wages of the East India Company, nor had he at present any such ii.tention. (Hear, hear.) He repeated that he thought the proposed amendment would not be an improvement. Sir E. PERRY supposed it would be considered that the right hon. baronet made a very pointed and severe attack on him when be alluded to not having received the wages of the East India Company. He begged to observe that the right hon. baronet was entirely wrong in his facts. He was not in the service of the East India Com pany, nor a pensioner of the Company. Sir J. GNAHANI—I did not say in the service of the East India Company. Sir E. PERRY—The right hon. baronet said, " in re cript of the wages." The fact was, that he bad received public money for pablc services, like the right hon. baronet, and without comparing himself to the right hon. baronet, he would say that he had performed his services as faithfully as he had done. Hs would tell the right hon. baronet that he had done more injury than anybody else to the measure before the house. He could easily understand that the right bon. baronet having arrived at his time of I.fe wan indisposed for any change, and probably that fact accounted for his suggestion. He thought the clause proposed was entirely in unimon with clause and ha hoped the noble lord would adh e r e t o It. _ _ Mr. V. SMITH "did not wish for delay, because the house wished to go into committee today. The discus. sion had hitherto been ail strictly to the point, and there fore he thought they were entitled to have these altera tions made as plain as possible. During the sitting of the committee the noble lord had laid on the table as many as forty amendments, and the noble lord proposed also to introduce fre-h clauses on the report. Lord STANLEY said the simple olkct of the clause was to carry out the generally exoresstd wish of the house that the principle of competition in the civil service should not be altered except on an appeal to Parliament. Mr. GLADSTONE thtinked the noble lord for intro ducing into the bill a positive enactment on the subject of competitive examinations. Furthermore, he thought the noble lord would act wisely in providing that the superintendence of the examinations should be placed in the hands of the Civil Service Commissioners, because they had the fiperience and staff which rendered them the best qualified to conduct such examinations. But the clause went somewhat beyond that, because it was a complete ouster of the council from many matters refer ring to the admission of candidate- to the civil service upon which they would be the most competent to give an opinion. M. MANGLES observed that there were other mat ters besides the .xitnination to be taken into considera tion, and upon 'hue the Minister could not do better than consult hi+ courcA. Lord STANLEY thought the 35th clause prevented the exclusion of the council, but in order to pace the point beyond doubt he would make a verbal altei,tion in the clause, so as to combine the action of the council with that f the Secretary of State. The c'au a was then agreed to and added to the bill, as was also the following :—" With a lcon•enient speed after the pa , sing of thin act, regulations shall be made by the Secretory of State in Council, with the a lvice and assistance of the commissioners for the time being ac ti r , g in execation of her Msj -sty's order in council of ?.Ist May, 1855, fir rt gulating the admission of persons to the civil service of the crown,' f.ir almitting ail petsony being natura'-:)Grn subj.!cts of her M;:j..-sty (and of such ale and qualification as may be prescribed in this behalf) who may be desirous of bec , ouing candidates for appoint in,et to the civil servic , of India, to be examined as can didates acccriingly, and for prescribing the branches of knowledge in which such candidates shall be examined, and generally for regulatiug and nirducting such exa minations under the superintendence of the said last mentioned commissioners, or of the persons for the time being entrusted with the carrying out of such regulations as may be from time to time established by her Majesty for examination, certificate, or other test of fitness in relation to appointments to junior situa tions in-the civil service of the Crown, and the candi dates who may be certified by the said commissioners or other persons as of iresai I to ba entitled under such re- Oat on 3 shall be recommended for appointment accord ing to the order of their proficiency as shown by such examina'imv, and snail persons only as shall have been so certified as aforesaid shall be appointed or admitted to the civil service of India by the Secretary of State in council : provided always, that all regulations to be male by the said Secretary of State under this act shall be laid before Parliament within 14 days after the making thereof, if Parliament be sitting, and if Portia be not sitting, then within 11 days after the next meet ing thereof." Mr. GLIDSIONF., pur•tia• t to notice, rose t) move the insertion of a clause relative to the levying of war in India. He quite weeded to the principle of our con stitution, that the right of making peace or war was a prerogative of the Crown and an executive function ; but the exerciee of that prerogative was protected by a vs. riot) of safeguards. For instance, it would be a viola tion of the constitution to maintain a standing army without the authori'y of Parliament. Nor was that au thority a mere matter of form, because every year Par liament was called upon not only to vote the money but the rumber of men, and that check insured the earliest appeal to Parliament in all matters connected with the levying of war by the Crown. So sacred was this prin ciple held that in 1825 or 1826, when Mr. Canning sent a Areal! force to the assistanc e of Portugal against Spain, that involved no increase of the national expenditure, it was a message down to Par liamentthought outh a e d s v u i rje b c it ;. to T br h i e ng difficulty of extending the Principle to the ea/to of India was no doubt great, but by no means so difficult as it was 60 years ago, when Par liament was first called upon to legislate for our East Indi in territories, and when the average period of com munication between this country and India was not less than five or six months, whereas now it did not take so many weeks. And yet at that time both Mr. Fox and Mr. Pitt embodied in their Indian Bill a elause embracing the very principle he was now contending for. It might he said that the provision in the latter bill proved ieeff!ctual, but he did not refer to the efficacy of the provision so much as to the principle which it sustained, and which asserted the necessity of placing some limitation upon the pre rogative of the Crowu in making peace or war even in India. Well, then, the question now arose in what manner they should deal with the subject at the present tittle. If it was thought practicable in Mr. Pitt's day, sorely the restriction could not possibly be embarrassing or inconvenient to the Executive Governnment in and age when science was doing so much to shorten the communion! ion with the East. But if the restriction was necessary years ago, how much stronger bad the case become by the lapse of time. In the days of Mr. Fox and Mr. Pitt Indian wars were mere lical wars. That was not the me now, for such had been the LOS' DON, WED:NESDAY EVENING, JULY 1858. growth of the British Empire, that it had_now reached a point when it beeeme a subject cif speculation as to what power might be intriguing against us. The enemy might stand in positive geographical communication with cur frontier, and it had become a serious matter for Modern statesmen to consider whether an army in Europe might not bo carried to India. The conse quence etas, that wars bad been advisedly for local in fluences, but having far more reference to Europen in terests, and on that account it was necessary the house should seriously contemplate the imposition of such a restriction as that which he was about to suggest. He would refer to two invances of wars in India as illustra tions of his argument. They were the war with Afighan istan and the war with Persia. What was the political effect of those operations ? What was the magnitude of the scale on which they were conducted ? The war with Aflghanistan was the subj-ct of long pre vious consideration ; it was not a sudden unforeseen necessity ; it was the fruit of long and deliberate con sideration, and if it had been necessary to appeal to Parliament before it was commenced there was no doubt it could have beau done without the least danger or inconvenience. It was entered upon without such a reference, athough a large section of the House of Commons disapproved of it—so much so indeed that at one time while it was in progress the right honourable baronet the member for Carlisle gave notice of his inten tion to challenge the Minister upon the subject; but, from motives of state policy, it was found impossible to bring the motion on, and Parliament was excluded from pro nouncing an opinion upon a war that involved the lives of as many subjects of the Queen as the Russian war, and added between 12,000.0001. and 15,000,0001 to the debt of India. Let the war have been right and neces sary, it did not matter for his purpose ; that was not his point. What be said was that it was a matter upon which Parliament ought to have something to say ; but no opportunity was afforded for saying it. It was impoF sible to refer to the judgment of Parliament after the war had commenced. At a much later date an attempt was made to challenge the judgment of Parliament upon it, but it failed. With regard to the Persian war, the case was still more apparent ; it came nearer home by many degrees to the rights of the British people and the privileges of the house. When the Government of the day gave orders for their military operations in Persia, they appeared to have felt that it would be unjust to impose on the people of India the entire burden of the war. Accordingly, they made an arrangement under which the immediate cost of the war was to devolve upon the East India Company, but a portion of that cost was to be reimbursed by Parliament. In the autumn of 1856 the order was sent out for commencing military operations in Persia ; in February, 1857, Parliament met, but there was no special or direct reference to the war in the speech from the throne or the address. The Government were asked whether they inteided to take any vote upon it, and they replied that they did not. The Parliament which existed when the war with Persia was begun was dissolved without its having had an op portunity of saying whether it was an assenting party to the operations ; and yet it was during the existence of that Parliament that the whole expenditure was in curred. Again, he would not say one word upon the policy of the war—he would assume, if they liked, that there was a public necessity for alt the measures taken. His doctrine was simply this, they were measures to which Parliament ought to have been a party. If such a precedent were allowed to grow into a practice it would amount to a perfect nullification of the privileges of the House of Commons, which were most vitally con nected with the liberties of the people, and therefore he strongly urged upon the house the necessity of placing some restraint in this respect upon the future ac ion of the Government. He concluded by moving the follow ing clause, viz. :—" Except for repelling actual invasion, or under other sudden and urgent necessity, her Ma jesty's forces in the East Indies shall not be employed in any military operation beyond the external frontier of her Majesty's Indian possessions without the consent of Parliament to the purposes thereof." Lord STANLEY did not rise to reply to the argu ments of his right hon. friend, but merely to observe that though he did not quite go the length of his illustrations, he yet concurred with him in the opinions he had ex pressed, and should therefore offer no opposition to the introduction of the clause. The reason such a clause was not introduced into the original bill was this ; it was felt that although such a clause would be valuable as a declaration of the intentions and opinions of Parliament, still, as a practical check upon the Minister, it would not have much force. It was a matter of importance, however, that there should be placed formally on record some notice of the intentions and feelings of Parliament on the subject, and as such a declaration he accepted this clause. In that light ho regarded it, in that sense he accepted it. Sir G. C. LEWIS said that if this clause was adopt ed, it should be considered in what way Parliament should give its oonsent to an Indian war, in which it was not necessary to vote supplies. It was unconstitutional for Parliament to interfere directly. Lord PALMERSTON would not argue the question in regard to the past wars to which his right hop. friend (Mr. Gladstone) had alluded, except to observe that the war with Persia more especially was announced to Parliament in the most formal manner in the Queen's speech at the opening of the session, and that any mem ber who chose to do so had thus the opportunity afforded to him of raising the question, and taking the opinion of Parliament upon it. He concurred with his right hon. friend that it was not in accordance with the principle of the constitution to require the assent of Parliament to be obtained previous to declaring war. The funda mental principle of the constitution was that the declar ing ef war and the making of peace rested with the Crown upon the responsibility of the advisers of the Crown, arid it would be to introduce a principle destruc tive of the British censtitution to maintain that the as sent of Parliament was necessary either for the declaring of war or the making of peace. (Hear, hear.) H e wa s astonished, therefore, that the Minister of the Crown did no rise and protest against doctrines so incsn4istsnt wi!li the principles of the constitution. (Hear.) But apart from the constitutional question, he wished to address himself for a moment to the wording of the clause. First, his right hon. friend proposed to enact that her Majesty's force s in the East Indies shall not be empl , yed in any military operations beyond the external portion of her Majesty's Indian possessions without the consent of Parliament, except to repel invasion. Now, invasion could only he repelled within the dominions of the coun try invaded. This part of the clause, therefore, was some thing like what, had it emanated from some hon. gen tleman from the other side of the Channel, would have been called a bull. (A laugh.) Bnt what was meant by her Majesty's forces in the East Indies I Was it the local army or the Queen's troops, being part of the regu lar army, but stati , ned in India for the time, that these words were intended to refer He imagined that the restriction was meant co apply only to the Indian army, because if not, it would prevent any of the Queen's troops serving in India from being nieved to carry on military operations in other parts of the world without the previous steps required by the clause. But suppose a war was to break out with China or with Turkey, and it was found necessary to remove some of the Queen's troops serving in India to take part in suck war—was it intended that those troops should be placed regara to their employment on a different footing from the troops at the Cape, the Mauritius, or any other part of the Q teen's dominions Ile presumed that the, at all event , , was not what the noble lord (Stanley) intended, and if riot, be would re , pectfully submit to the noble lord that he had been somewhat hasty in Adopting this clause, and that it would be well it he would take fur ther time to consider it. (Hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The noble lord says that by the constitution of the country the Sovereign alone possesses the power of peace and war, and therefore he objects to the prise:pie of this c l ause . No doubt the constitution places in the hands of the Crown the power of declaring war and making peace, but what we have been considering is a state of affairs which is not under the consti•ution of this coun try. (Cheers.) Though the power of peace and war rest with the Sovereign, practically the constitution gives to the House of Commons the control in the power of vot ing or withholding the supplies for carrying on war. But in the case of India, if the power of declaring war and making peace is left with the Sovereign entirely,when that power is once exercised there are no means of control, and a policy might be pursued which might be extremely injurious to the interns sof the country. The instances to which the noble lord referred as showing the incon venience which might arise from accepting this clause do not, in my opinion, apply. The noble lord argued that if any portion of the Queen ' + troops serving in India should be wanted to carry on military operations in China or in Turkey, we could not, under this clause, so employ them. My answer to that is that if the Queen's ttoops should be so required in China or in Turkey, it must be in consequence of the exercise of the prerogative of the crown under the constitution of this country in declar ing war— (hear) —and in that case the Housoof Contemns would have the power of exercising its constitutional privilege by voting or withholding the supplies and con. trolling the powers of the crown—(hear, hear)—there fore, although perhaps some alteration may be necessary in the language of the clause, I am of opinion that it is not, as the noble lord supposes, an attack upon the pre rogative of the crown, but a wise and politic provision. (Cheers.) Lord J. RUSSELL concurred in the general policy of the clause, fpr the reasons which the right hon. gentle man had stated. If the clause passed in its present form it would prevent the sending of any of her Majesty's f trees in India beyond the frontier without the consent of Parliament, and the deity and publicity consequent on bringing the matter before Parliament might lead to the failure of an operation such as the capture of .Java. Therefore, whilst agreeing in the policy of the clause, he thought some alteration was required in the wording. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL would submit to the right hon. gentleman (ittr. Gladstone) whether his object might not be effected in a more satisfactory manner by inserting, instead of the words, "in the East Indies," "maintained out of the revenues of the East Indies." (Rear. bear.) Mr. WILSON said, that what he presumed his right hon. friend (Mr. Gladstone) wished to provide was, that a similar check should be had in the ease of Indian wars to that which exiAted in the case of European ware. Ho thought that object would be best effected by inserting, instead of the word, " her Majesty's forces in the East Indies," &c., the words, "the revenues of India shell not be employed," hc. Mr. GLADSTONE said he bad no objection to snake the alteration suggested by the Solicitor General, which he thought would meet the case. He did not think the alteration suggested by his hon. friend (Mr. Wilson) was a desirable one. Lord PALMERSTON would remind his right hon. frirnd (Mr. Gladstone) that the Queen's troops stationed in India were paid out of tbo revenues of that country as well as those of the Indian army. Mr. GLADSTONE ob,erved that the noble lord's tatment w quite correct, but the hioratat the Queen's troops were moved intn another territory they ceased to be paid out of the ri•vennes of India. After a fewworje from Mr. MANGLES and Cobnel SYKES, The word "in," after the words, " her Majeity's forces," was then struck out of the clang ; and the word , , "maintained out of the revenue of inserted instead of the word "in." On the question that the clause as amended stand part of the bill, Lord PALMERSTON said be was astonished at the course taken by her Maj9sty's Government with respect to this clause, which he thought a very objectionable one. He should not, however, take a division on the question, for he knew that that would he usele=s. (Laughter.) The SPEAKER then put the question, that the clause, as ame•ided, stand part of the bill ; and, amid much laughter, said, " I think the noes have it." The division bell was then rung, the cries of "agreed'' being very general, while hon. members were earning in from the library and dini:!,c-rooms. When the question had been put after the closing of the doors, the Speaker declared that the " ayes" bad it. A. division, however, took place, and the numbers were— For the clause Against it , Majority for the clauso —lO6 152 . 46 Lord PALMEIISTON then rose to move the follow ing clause—" That so much of this act as relates to the nomination, election, duration of service, salaries, and retired allowances of the councillors shall not continue in force longer than for five years from the Ist of August, 1558." The noble lord said that the council as at present proposed to be constituted was, in hie opinion, a continuation of the double government. A maxim of one of the political writers of Italy stated that when it was desired to maintain things as much like what they were as possible their name should be changed. (Laughter.) That was what her Majesty's government were about to do in the case of the Indian administration. He had no objection to the greater number of the councillors being chosen from amongst the directors of the East India Company, who were men of experience in ludian affairs ; but he saw no good rea son why the salary of the gentlemen so to be chosen was to be raised from 5001. to 1,5001. a-year, when their duties were not to be so onerous as they had hitherto been. Again, the East India directors held office for the limited period of six years, subject to re-election aft- r that time. They were liable to retirement into private life without any pension. The councillors under the new bill were to hold office for life, with a liability to retire after a certain period on a pension of 5001. a-year. Teese councillors would not have to decide anything ; the cabinet minister would be the party to decide. The councillors would have no responsibility, whereas the directors were responsible to their constituents. There was little doubt that within two years' time a great deal of the detail business that was at present sent home from India to be transacted in this country would be done on the spot, so that the duties of the councillors would be growing less important. He was quite confident that 15 was too large a numb er of councillors. When his government were framing their bill they were of opinion that six would be sufficient, but made the number up to eight in deference to the opinions of others. Indeed, he thought that the tendency of the noble lord's (Lord Stanley's) mind was in the same direction ; and he likewise was of opinion that 15 would be found too many. He (Lord Palmerston) did not, in the clause which be now proposed, ask the house to interfere with its former decision in respect of the council. His object was to enable Parliament to deal with the council at a future time without being met with the question of " vested interest," or that of " par liamentary title ;" and under these circumstances he thought the Government ought to consent to the inser tion of the cause. (Hear, hear.) Lord STANLEY said that, though the noble lord who had just addressed them had stated that he did not wish to put the house under the necessity of reconsider. ing the question which they had already decided, he (Lord Palmerston) advocated the insertion of his clause on the ground that it would give the house an oppor tunity of reconsidering that question within a ':,limited time. (Hear.) He objected to the plan which the noble lord proposed for giving Parliament an opportunity of considering the subject, and he did so because Parlia ment had an opportunity of considering it, not in five years, but at the very earliest period at which it or any other portion of the measure now under discussion should prove inconvenient in practice, if any part of the bill should turn out to be so. (sear.) The noble lord spoke of keeping the door open for a reconsideration. Why, the door was open—(bear, hear)—but the noble lord seemed to wish to pat Parliament under the neces sity of reconsidering the question, and to that he (Lord Stanley) thought there was great objection. (Hear, hear.) He thought there was a great objection to fixing any definite period at which any particular measure must be dealt with. He remembered to have heard great complaints that the subject of the Bank Charter was obliged to be brought under discuseiotti at a parti cular time, no matter how important might be the other measures which that discussion would interfere with. Five years ago, when the Government of which the noble lord was a member brought forward a measure which it was proposed should be reconsidered in 10 years, the feeling of the truce was manifested against that proposed reconsideration. There might be at such a period events of public moment—there might be a reform bill ; there might be great questions of organic change; there might be nut jects absorbing the whole public attention; there might be war imminent or actual; and any or all of these cirourwtancee might prevent their giving that attention to the topic it deserved. The noble lord had said lie was afraid that vested interests would be created under this bill, and that, therefore, Parliament would be compelled to pay heavy c impensation if it proposed to diminish the numbsr of the Council or to diminish the amount bf their salaries; but if the noble lord would look at the last paragraph of clause 14, he would find it was pro vided that if at any time hereafter it should appear ex pedient to Parliament to reduce or alter the constitution of the Comic 1, no member of the Council who had not served 10 years should be entitled to compensation. The noble lord then went on to find fault with the provisions of the amendment. He said, " You would continue the double government and leave nothing but the same ma chinery that existed before." At the beginning of the year the noble lord had delivered an interesting speech on this subject, in which he dwelt with force on the in convenience and delay and the complexity that was caused to ordinary business from the existence of the two offices, and from the sending to and fro despatches one to another, hut under the present bill this would not be the case. The administration of India would be directly under the Cro n; great facilities were provided for placing the army on a different footing, and steps had been taken without which measures of subsequent reform would be far more difficult of accomplishment. The noble lord had objected to the number of the Coun cil, and said that the number 15 on committees of the H ae of Gerninons was not found to work well. But was that the experience of the house? Was it not rather the ca.., that the house utuelly adopted that numbs as being not too large for practical business ? In point of fact, the greater pat t of the work to be done by the Counml would be done by smallcsmtnitteee, and nit by the whole collective body. The noble lord i.aid he thought the members of the Government would look forward to the time when a reduction i n t h e num b ers of the council w ould be desirable, and they had been told that by adopt ing the proposed different mode of carrying on the hu-i -nese of India, they would pr ibribly diminish the work of the Government, at home. That wee a question on which he would pronounce no opinion, either one way or the other. It it turned out that the amount of work to be transacted at horns would ho diminished, then it would become a question whether the number of the council should not be diminished ; although he might mention that they did not look on these members of council, like so many clerks, to go through a number of despatches, but they were wanted for the experience they could bring and the advice they would give—for the general admi nistrative capability they e could Live to the Government, and not merely with reference to the amount of manual labour. He never denied that it might be possible here after to reduce them. Remembering how they were at this moment aetiog on conjecture—remembering the diffi culty of the experiment to be tried—a Minister might not be ashamed to some down to the house, and say that the facts of the case had differed from his original anticipa tion. (Hear.) He did not think there would be any diffi culty in a Minister taking such a course, but he did object to condemn by anticipation a plan which the house had fully sanctioned. (Hear.) If the noble lord thought so badly of it, it was not a question whether it should last five years, but whether it should be passed into a law at all ; and if that were his opinion, he would have an opportunity on the third reading of the bill, which was not very distant, to ascertain whether that would be the opinion of the house. (Cheers.) Mr. BRIGHT intended to support the proposal of the noble lord the member for Tiverton, and indeed the noble lord the Minister for India had furnished a very strong argument in its favour whoa he reminded the house that the work they were engaged on was very much founded cot conjecture. Well, they all knew that, but it was just precisely for that reason that Parliament should retain the power recommended by the noble viscount. But besides that, it must be remembered that the measure had been passed by a party which had only made up its mind, upon compulsion, to legielate at all for India. (Hear.) There were, therefore, strong reasons for doubting whether the bill was likely to promote the future good government of that country. If another Indian convulsion should not come about before that time, it was not wholly impossible that the same complaints against the government of India might he heard in 15 years to come. He thought, there fore, it would he a very wise precaution for Parliament to retain the power of revising the bill. (Hear.) Mr. MACAULAY regarded the proposal of the noble lord as wholly inconsistent with the provisions of the bill already sanctioned. Mr. SMITH said that the objection just urged by his hon. friend would equally apply to any other alterations they might make in the bill. He thought there was great force in the remarks of his noble friend in reference to the constitution of the proposed committee, and he must say that nothing in his opinion could be more extraordinary than the course taken by Government in reference to it. Mr. WHITESIDE thought that the proposal of the noble lord, as well as the t ine of the right hon. gentleman was not very complimentary to the house, which had shown the greatest iuduetry in framing the bill as it now stood. Gentlemen of the largest experience connected with India had again and again declared that the number of 15 was necessitated by the requirements of the council, and that such a number was not one too many. The noble lore's proposal was in effect to provide that at the end of five years the whole fabric which they had taken such pains to erect should crumble into dust. That, undoubtedly, would be the result of the noble lord's proposal, although it was ushered in by a speech at total variance with any such conclusion. No doubt the argument of the hon. member for Birmingham was quite consistent, but then the hon. gentleman was eppoeed to the existence of a council at all. He called upon the house to reject the proposal of the noble lord, and thus show themselves unwilling to prognosticate disaster for a scheme which they had taken such pains to frame. (Hear, hear.) Mr. MELLOR thought the proposal of the noble lord was calculattil to work beneficially for the country, and therefore he should anoport it. Mr. A. KENNARD likewise regarded the suggestion of the noble lord with favour, as he thought the question of the government of India could not be raised too often in Parliament, if they desired the benefit of that country., Mr. AYRTON regarded the present as the most nis chievone of all the many proposals which the noble viscount had urged with reference to India. (Rear, hear, from the Government benches.) Ho should have thought the u able lord ought to have remained satisfied with the divisions which he had already taken with regard to the bill, and have felt that his views with regard to India were , distaste ful to the house. One fatal objection to the proposal now brought forward was, that it would make the co until de pendent upon the good opinions of the Government of the day. Mr. DUNLOP welcomed the noble lord's motion, which compelled the house to re-consider this question. The ATTORNEY-GEZTIA.:II.A.L said the effect of the clause would be that they should reconstruct the council at the end of five years, but that after that period the e midi would cease, and the whole of the power would be rested in the hands of the Secretars 7 of State. The mea sure which the hon. member for Birmirelham had. through out consi-tently supported would come to Dees. The noble lord had at first a Ivocated a council of eight, who would be mere ciphers, and now ho wont two step . further and wished that after five years the whole power would vest in the Secretary of State. The hon. member for Perth said it, was very difficult to get the attention of the ifooso of Commons to Indian questions, and that it was now only because the Indian revolt had forced their attention to the subject that a bill was able to be carried. But that weL•t against his own theory, because in five years hence there would probably be no such emergency to force attention to the subject, and the effect of his proposition would be that Parliament would have to remodel the Indian Government at a time when he could have no guarantee that they would not be in the very state of mind which he depre cated. What would be most calculated to paralyse the powers and exertions of the council, would be to tell them that they were only to last for five years. Mr. WILSON said the hon. and learned gentleman was mistaken. The Secretary of State had no power under the bill except in council; and if the council lapsed the power, the Secretary of State would lapse too. The effect of the bill would be, that it would be incumbent on Parliament to reconsider the whole question. That would only be what had been done in all India bills, which were inva• riably for limited periods. The great difference between the two bills of the Government showed how unsettled the question was; and the debates showed the lack of infor mation on the subject. These were strong reasons for supporting the amendment. Mr. G. H. VANSITTART felt convinced that nothing would be gained by adopting the proposition of the noble lord. If it was held but that the council should only en dure for five years it was impossible that our Indian policy could be placed on a firm basis. Such an arrangement would load to much doubt and confusion. Mr. DARBY GRLFEITHS said he thought they ought to have an opportunity of revising the measure at a definite period, and he thought it most reasonable to adopt the period proposed by the noble iOrd• Mr. ADAMS thought the no,Ne lord could hardly be serious in desiring to see this chilies') become a portion of the bill. The bill was framed with a view to members being appointed for life, or during good behaviour, and the noble lord now proposed that the council should only last for five years. They would never get the right sort of men to accept office under such circumstances. Without per manency, how could they expect the people of India to have any confidence in the Government ? Again, the pro position would destroy the independence of the council, by making them dependent on whoever might be Minister at the end of the five years ; and if they were place seekers they would for the latter part of the term strive to gain his favour. These were reasons why the salary of the directors should not be the measure of that of the ,coun cillors. The directors had themselves a pecuniary inte,"est in the prosperity of the company, and were not bound to give all their time. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that at tko end of the five years, if the amendment were carried, the whole of the power would be in the hands of the Secre tary of State. The hon. member for Devonport had said that the whole of the powers ,of the Secretary of State could only be exercised in council. But the object of the amendment was to abrogate only so much of the bill as re ferred to the council, and as the bill transferred all the powers of the company to the Crown, the effect would be to leave the absolute and irreponsible power in the hands of the Secretary of State. It would be perfectly regular and straightforward if the noble lord had on the third read ing asked the house to reject the bill ; but the course taken by the noble lord was to ask them at this stage to so modify the bill as to transfer an arbitrary power to the Crown, thereby abrogating all they had hitherto decided on. The house would pause before agreeing to such a proposal after all 'heir labours. He had thought the original proposal ono to be regarded with suspicion as leaving too great control of patronage to the secretary, but even that provided a parliamentary control. But this proposal would place the Government of India beyond the control or cognisance of Parliament, and undoing all their work would leave only a Caput mortuum. The noble lord could surely not have contemplated that result, but that would certainly be the effect of the amendment. He deprecated the rediscussion of the principle at a stage which should only relate to detail. _ _ Lord PALMERSTON said the speeches from the Trea sury benches, to judge from the altered appearance of the seats behind him, had, like the! resolutions, answered their purposes. (Laughter.) There were two ways in which the propositions he had made were met by the Go vernment. One was that which was adopted when there was no answer. He was then met with silence ; without attempting argument, Government met him by going to a division. The other mode was more complimentary. It was to totally, fundamentally, and entirely misrepresent his proposition, and answer not what he proposed, but something totally, fundamentally,' and entirely different. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the clause would have the effect of handing over the whole govern ment of India, without any check, to the Secretary of State, because it would make to cease the existence and functions of the council. But on the contrary he pur posely and studiously avoided saying that the council should cease. The part of the bill which constituted the couneil-and compelled the secretary to act in conjunction with it, would continue untouched, but the clause would put an end to their salaries and to the number. As to the mode of appointment, the alteration would only apply to any vacancies which might arise after the five years. The only effect of the clause would be, that they would be compelled to reconsider the number and salaries. That wont', of course, involve the reconsideration of the whole arrangement, but that was the merit of the clause. It would not put an end to the council, or hand over the government to the Secretary of State, as had been al leged. The house then divided, when the numbers were— For Lord Palmorston's clause Against it . Majority for Government --34 The announcement of the numbers was received with loud cheers. Mr. D. SEYAIOUR moved the following clause:— " Whereas it is expedient that COMO offices hitherto ex clusively filled by members of the civil service should be thrown open to other qualified persons, the 56th and 57th section of the act 33d George 111., c. 52, are hereby repealed." The repeal of these clauses was approved of by several persons in India of the highest authority and position in the civil service. The effect of the clauses had been to debar the company availing themselves of a great deal of talent in India, and the repeal of them would not only allay any irritation that might exist between the civil and non-civil servants in India, but would increase the efficiency of the administration. The hon. gentleman con cluded by moving the clause. Lord STANLEY said the hon. gentleman had opened a wide subject, which by his proviso was treated in a most summary and sweeping manner. He (Lord Stanley) had not had an opportunity of inquiring into the relations be tween the uncovenanted and the civil service, but it seemed to him that his proviso would sweep away all the privi leges which had been enjoyed by the covenanted civil ser vice during the last 70 years. He thought that the recoil)- . mendations of the lion. member would breake up the whole framework of society in India, and would have a greater effect upon the internal government of that country than probably many hon. members anticipated. Tho subject should engage the attention of the Government, but he hoped the house would not at present pledge itself to aoy positive course on the subject. Sir E. COLEBROOKE thought it would be dangerous for the house to pl e dge it s elf to any direct course upon this point at present. Mr. W. YANSITTART called a tt en tion to the state of a the Indian army, towards the reorganisation of which he regretted no step ha.l been tkaen. Mr. 1). SEYMOUR withdrew h is cl a use. Mr. GREGSON moved the following mfi;calaacricsa, L:tb :—"That h the settlements of Penang , and Sarawak, be placed un der the President of the Coun cil of India." Mr. FITZROY objected to the proposition, which ho thought could not stand in the form of a cl a u se . The SPEAKER confir me d this view of the case, and the clause fell to the ground. Lord STANLEY moved the following proviso : —" That if By person being or having been such di rec t or , an d elected or appointed as aforesaid, shall refuse to accept the office, it - shall be lawful for her Majesty, by warrant under her royal sign manual, to appoint in the place of every director so refusing, some other person to be a member of the council, but so that nine members of the council at the least shall be persons qualified as hereinafter mentioned." The proviso was agreed to. Sir E. PERRY moved in clause 10, after "behaviour," to insert, "and shall not, so long as ho remain such councillor, accept, hold, or carry ou any other office or situation, or any other profession or employment from which any gain or profit shall be derived." Lord STANLEY said the clause had been discussed over and over again, and there could be no mistake as to the nature of the duty of the councillors. They would have to give up as much time as was necessary for the perform ance ofjtheir duties, and further than that the Government was not disposed to impose further restrictions upon thorn. Sir C. FORTESCUE said there was a restriction im posed on members of the Court of Directors, namely, that they should not be engaged in any other way or trade with India. He thought that restriction might be imposed on members of the now council. . . The amendment was negatived without a division. Lord STANLEY moved on clause 1 3 to leave out " with out the consent in writing of the Chancellor of the Exche quer," and insert " except by a similar order in council, to ha laid in like manner before both houses of Parliament." The amendment was agreed to. Lord J. RUSSELL moved to leave out clauses 27 and 28, relating to the secret committee. The noble lord strongly objected to the unreserved power which it was proposed to delegate to the Minister as to acting on his now responsibility, and with respect to calling in the ser vices of the seer .t minister. The present President of the Board of Control was as objectionable, as his successor might be objectionable—(hear, hear, and a laugh) and although the former might exercise the power with advantage, the Minister who succeeded him might act in a different s p irit. The noble lord concluded by moving the omission of the clauses. Tile CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the 27th clause referred, not to the general mode of con sulting the council, brit to the circumstances in which the Minister would be compelled to act without delay. He did not think it wise to define the limits of the secrecy pro posed by the clauses. Was it probable that in the state of society in which we lived that, the Minister would abuse the power entrusted to him ? He thought that the proba bilities were entirely opposed to that contingency. Th e object of the bill was mainly to establish the responsibility of the Minister. It was not contended that there should be no Fleet ecy; but he was not preparail to arue that there should be no limit. The danger arose that by attempting to define a limit the efficiency of the Minister iu a given emergency might be impaired. The itq,cn6ibility the Minister to the house was not denied, and he hoped the house would pause before they assented to the course proposed by the neblo lord. He was sure that the nobli lord had not made this suggestion in any spirit of hostilill to the bill ; indeed, the nutle lord, like many other mem' hers, had shown that iu discussing a great question like this they could sink any party feelings in a sense of pug , duty. (Hear, hear.) But believing that this was a power which ought. to be exercised by the Minister, he hoped the clauses would be retained. Sir J. GRAHAM said he was actuated by no hostilityl o the bill. On the contrary, he had on many occasions during the discussion voted in favour of its provisions. During the government of the late Sir R. Peel the question arose in the Coma. of Directors whether the Governor-General should be recalled. The matter was under debate by 21 directors for two months, and the secrecy of their deliberations we' maintained by them—the Board of Control being the body which had divulged the secret. Arguing from the past, he believed that the Affghan war was the fore' runner of many of our disasters in India, and that if the policy of that war had been debated in the Court of Dirac. toes, a wiser course would have prevailed, and the wet would no . ;; have been undertaken. So with respect to the Persian war. He was, therefore, opposed to delegatinB this Jai ge discretionary power of secrecy to the Minister, and should vote for the excision of the clauses. The coo . cil, he felt convinced, would be worthy of the confidence of the Minister, who, in a case of emergency, could impose secrecy on them. Cases requiring secrecy would, he be' lieved, be very rare. Sir G. C. LEWIS recommended the house to adhere the clause in the bill establishing the powers of the secret eommittee, and expunge the clauses us now suggested 14 the noble lord the member for London. Mr. MANGLES said he bad had very recent experience in this matter, as a member of the secret committee. Strange as it might seem, it was a fact that the whole con' quest of Scinde was conducted in the secret committee , an d the affairs of the province for many years administered i n that department. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. baronet the Liember for Carlisle had rather understated the case with regard to the manner i❑ which the Court of Director! had 1 - et, t the secret with regard to the recall of Lord Ellen borough. Pending that transaction, six members had re' tired by :rotation—so that thirty members in all had faith' fully kept the secret. (Hear.) After a few words from thelSoLicrron-GENERAL, Lord PALMERSTON said the house was asked to ewe' as to India thrat which ought not to be enacted with re' Bard to any other portion of her Majesty's dominions. Thl Cabinet under this bill are reTonsible for the government of India; and it would be contrary to the spirit of tie , British constitution that they should necessarily call into their confidence the members of the council. The propose: was one which introduced a totally new principle into the working of our administrative end constitutional system. The house then divided on the 27th clause-- For the clause Against Majority Mr. T. G. BARING moved to leave out " in the ea gineers and in the Artillery," and Insert " in the Militarl College at Addiscombe." Lord STANLEY objected to the amendment. After a few words from Col. SMIS, The amendment was withdrawn, and the clause wee agreed to. The bill, as amended, was then agreed to, and ordered to be read a third time on Thursday. UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL. On the motion for the third reading of this bill, Lord ELCHO tendered his best thanks to the Lord' Advocate for this excellent measure. _ Mr. DUNLOP concurred in opinion With the noble lord Col. SYKES, amidst loud cries of "Divide," gave qualified assent to the bill. He objected to the junction* the colleges of Aberdeen. The bill WaM then read a third time and passed. CIVIL BILLS, Sc. (IRELAND), AMENDMENT MD On the motion for the second reading of this bill, Mr. Sergeant DEA.SY hoped the bill would not be pro' ceeded with at that late hour. The motion was then withdrawn, and the second read ing fixed for Thursday. The Titles to Laud (Scotland) Bill passed through cony mittee. JURIES (IRELAND) (No. 2) BILL. me ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND with' drew this bill. Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD withdrew his bill, which 10 of a similar character. The Wills, &c., of British Subjects Abroad was read third time and passed. The Copyright of Designs Bill was read a third time al: 0 passed. The Stipendiary Magistrates, &0., Bill was read a thir d time and passed. The Police (Scotland) Act Amendment Bill pole d through committee. The Lunatics (Scotland) Act Amendment Bill passoi through committee. The County, &c., Property Conveyance Bill was read second time. The other orders were disposed of, and the house 1 14 journed at five minutes past one o'clock. Country Markets, LIVERPOOL, JULY 6. The market to-day opened with strength, and, althoug l the passing business was not notable for activity for o f ' sumption, buyers being v e ry s hy, w h ea t an d l our mus t 1 1 quoted 2d ~ e r bushel, and flour is p er sac k an d bars e higher on the week. LEEDS, JULY 6. We hays very few fresh arrivals of wheat, but there ls;9 a fair show of samples from warehouse. lu conseque of the continued excitement abroad, and the improvere, in London, an advance of 2s per qr from the rates of X day is firmly demanded, which millers comply with Do l l to a small extent, consequently little business has bee done. Barley nominal. Oats and be ans h e ld for Wl' money, but the demand limited. Other articles as beford' NORWICH CATTLE-JuLT 3. - -• There was a tolerable show of Scots, short-horns, D e Tons, and Irish exhibited to-day. Trade inactive. Fat beasts, 7s Od to 7s 6d ; prime, 8s Od per stone; bei s l about same as last week. She e p, 34s t o 38 s p er h ea d, *l l t good store pigs, 15s to 20s. Fat pork, 6s to 6s 6d P 5 stone of 141bs; trade dull. PROVISION MARKET. Beef, per lb 6 . 1.d to 7Ad I Butter, p pt. is 5d to is Mutton, per to r id I Eggs, per 18, Os al to is l>d Lamb, do., Os 9d to Os 9,1 d Hens, p pair Os Od to 03 v ,j Veal, per lb ... 6d to Os Chickens,do.4s Od t o 5e ", 1 Pork, per 1b...0s to 61d Ducks, do., 4s 6d t o 6 e Salmon, per lb Os ud Ducklings,do2s Od to 2s u j Grouse, per brace..,...os to Os Turkeys, each Os Od to 04 ° 0 Tallow, p stone, Os to —s Od Potatoes, per pt., ....3d to COURSE OF EXCHANGE.—YEsTEADAT. Am5terdam............ 11 15 1 i Gibraltar ..•• .• • •-• Ditto, three months .. 11 1714 Leghorn •• • ..... ...„ 29 70 ilotterdam •••••••• •• •• it 17 3 Genoa ...... •••• •• 25 59 Antwerp ••••••.••• • • •• 25 35 ;Milan • - Brussels •• •• •••••• .• •• 25 35 .Venice., •• •• •••• Bambargh _ ...• •• •• •• • • 13 7 Netplet, -• •• 41 Alton& •••••••• •• •• . • :Palermo Paris ••••••• .• 25 10 ' Messi na ... 12 54 Do. three months .. 25 32. i Lisbon ...... .. 52 Maneilles ............ 25 35 Oporto 52 Bourdeaux ..••.• •• •• Janeiro ...... •• •• •• •••• Frankfort-on-Maine .... 118%;Buenos Ayre5........ Berlin ••• •• •• •• •• •••• •• • • .New York ,60 days' sight Vienna • • .... 10 27 !Philadelphia frie5te........•• • • .... 10 28 ! PRICES OF /BULLION, rut ott ?otersburg ........... 35% !Foreign Gold in Bars £3 17 Madrid 49 1 4 /Portugal Gold Coin .. 0 0 Cadiz ......... • • 49% Mexican Dollars .... 0 0 0 Barcelona •• New Dogare 0 o 4 Seville •••••••• • • .• • • • • ;Silver to bars ...... 0 5 17' LOCAL SHARE MARKETS, LIVERPOOL-JULY 6. STOCK EXCHANGE — The improved feeling of yesterdef still continues firm, and the market closed firm at a f ur ther advance of about 1 por cent. Subjoined are the c l o sivi prices : —Dovers, 2,1 1 - - York and No r th Midl an d, 35i —Berwicks, 224 if—East Lanca s hi re , 901 l —C a l e d on ian. , 37A 4—Leeds Northern, 234 3 Dutch Rhenish, 54 i die' —London and North-Western, 90 }--Sheffield, 36k 1,; Chester and Holyhead, 17. , ,—Eastern Counties, 12 3.iv —Groat Western, 501 ;—Lancashire and Yorkshire, 914 —Groat Western of Canada, 164 714 Blackburns, 114 Midland, 91i 2--North British, 12,i i—Birkenheads, 6S —Grated Trunk of Canada, 101 4. BIRMINGHAM, JULT G. STOCK EXCHANGE.—Thoro was an improvement in th s markat here to-day, bnt busineAs was limited. LondoeF , 891 891—South Stafford 101—Great Westerns, 491—13ir• rningham Canal, 94. LEEDS, JULY 6. STOCK EXCHANGE.— North Eastern, Yorks, 711—Mid' lauds, 916—Leeds, 88,6. MANCHESTER, JULY 6. STOCK EXCITANGE.—The market opened rather firmer: and a considerable business was done, chiefly in Leeds OP Midlands. Blackburns, 6.l6—llovers, 204—Leeds, 901- Midlands, 91.i—Trunks, 10i—North British, Sheflields, 87—E•►stern Counties, 124. BIRTHS. ANSTRIITIIER—Ort the sth inst., at 74,Wimpole-street, Cavell• dish-square, the wife of Captain Anstrutber, Grenadier Guards, of a son. ANsstL—On the sth inst., the wife of George F, Amt.,ll, of the Royal Mint, Esq., of a son. FRAMPTON—On the sth inst., at Billacombe, Plymstock, South Devon, the wife of Major 11. J. Frampton, of a daughter. MARLROKOUGH—On the 4th inst., at 36, Lower Brook-street, the Duchess of Marlborough, of a son. MARRIAGES. HAartis—Jogs—On the Ist inst., at Pcnsax, Worcestershire, the Rev. Henry Harris, 8.D., rector of Winterbouruc Bassett, Wilts, to Elinor Marian, youngest daughter of the late J. IL W. Jones, Esq., of Cnastleton-house, county of Oxford. WHITER —IAA —On the 6th lust. , at Kingsland Congregationa Church, Thomas, youngest son of James Whit er, E sq. , of Spital-square and Bethnal-green, to Lydia Sarah, eldest daughter of Charles Los, Esq., of Kingsland and Mildmaya park. DEATHS. A min ,— On the 6th inst„ at 19, Southampton•street, BloonaS• bury, L. Ainger. C o n the 11 Inst. , a t L owes t o ft , J ose ph C o l ma n, g Cummt—On the 2.1 isist., at 9, Queen's-gardens, Ifyde-park, Frederick. Cutler, late of Furnival's-inn, aged 60. a L m ( s 4 FORSTER-- On the 15th May, at Luckuow, of confluent small pox, Captain William Frederick Forster, 18th Regiment, wily surviving son of Colonel Forster, Deputy-Adjutant - General. MACKIE—On the 3d inst., at 13argaly, John Macke, Esq late M.P. for the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright, MITCHEL- -On the sth inst , at 8, Charles•street, Lowcdee square, Edward C, Mitchell, aged 72, Wai.v—On the 4th inst., at 11, Queen's-road, Regent's-park, William Cecil Wray, aged two 3 ears and two months. LONDON : Printed and Published by MIIRDO YOUNO Ne, 112, Strand, Printer, at T 44 Sun Office, Na ?El, Strand, iu tho Precinct of 1 - ;ne Savoy, in the cowstf of .Niiddiesex, Wednes.lay, July 7, 1855, Tl6c and from grektl, ~~ and partie and 4 haven flow i Llang Fares G Retur, Fires G able f Chaps Fares One in three' --- from Bristo and 7; on Wl to re e , wises Tene n lotte-t Ptar UP Wit -a M place. cane c N.B. Assure being B Ann nlents' Eve' T' Ti The navi, Co the Tray, Barrie Insu dents, With ?row the a TN lashed has be poliele eurrin annua the de Of gra Tb May, Th bat ic to -0i; for hey goo am One