The Sun. — London, England, 1858-07-21 00:00:00

noble and gallant officer would appear in this evening's Gazette. . Sir W. FRASER - asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he would consider some plan for remov ing the wall between Burlington House and Piccadilly; and for giving the public the advantage of the ground in the front and rear of that building? Lord J. MANNERS was unable then to give a posi tive answer to the hon. and learned gentleman's ques tion. HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. Mr. ROEBUCK proceeded to bring forward his mos tion respecting the position and privileges of the Huai sou's Bay Company, He said that at that lat e period of the session he should not have felt justified intaking op the i r time with any question that was not of ver y h g e re b, great s importance, but the interests of the empire h we h re i , is Was 'loved, deeply concerned with that one which about to introduce, and he thought it therefore desirable that an understanding should be come to between the government and the house o n the sub j ect. At p resent the continent of America was thus divided: the southern and most important belonged to the United States ; the territory of England stretched from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and at the western point was a small portion be longing to Russia. We had originally planted 13 colo nies in America, which had subsequently become inde pendent, and up to the present time had increased to 35 or 36 independent states, and was becoming a power which unless England established a counterpoise, would he believed overshadow, not only America, bat the whole earth. In his opinion the most successful counter poise would be a systematic plan of colonisation carried on in the district to which he was about to call the at tention of the house. But we had been extremely negli gent on the subject of colonisation in our American pos sessions. Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Lower Canada were colonised when we took possession, but since then we had not created a single colony. In the meantime the Americans had increased from 13 to 36 states, and their population from threemillions to thirty millions, while we had remained idle and done nothing to create a counterpoise. The hon. and learned member proceeded to state the circumstances under which the Hudson's Bay Company had acquired their present pri vileges. In the reign of Charles 11. certain persons ob tained from the Crown the exclusive privilege of trading within a territory commencing at Hudson's Straits, al though at the very time the said territory belonged to France, whose dominion at that time extended to the North Pole. In 1.670 the charter was granted con firming them in all their privileges, " in all countries within the straits of Hudson's Bay, which were not at the time possessed by any other subjects of his Majesty or by the subjects of any other Christian state." For many years the Hudson's Boy Company did nothing, but an act of Parliament was passed giving them for a certain term the :erne rights as were contained in the charter, and when t hat act expired, all rights would ex pire on the side of the company. When Canada came into the possession of the English the enterprising spirit of the new settlers penetrated the preserves of the Hud son's Bay Company in search of peltries, and the Hud son's Bay Company, under Lord Selkirk, actually waged war against the North-Western Company, when great battles were fought, and much military glory achieved on both sides. However, at last a very astute and clear headed man interfered—he meant the rigit hon. mem ber for Coventry—who said to the belligerents, "You are fighting useless battles, had you not better unite." They did unite, and by uniting had cheated the public. (A. laugh.) Ile did not wish to say a word against the Hudson's Bay Company, who probably had only manage d their territory as other men, in similar circumstances, would have done, but he wished to call the attention of the house to the circumstances under which they held it, and the manner in which these circumstances bore on the national interest. The Hudson's Bay Company was a fur company, and wishel to preserve their territory as a home fsr the wild fur-bearing animals, and their inte rest was to keep the footsteps of man away as long as possible. In such a state of things, he appealed to the House of Commons to put an end to this system of seclu sion, and to open up this vast territory to enterprise and colonisation. It might be urged that the rights of the Hudson's Bay C enpany interfered. (Hear) He denied that they had any rights ; but even if they had, the house knew how to deal with them. The first resolution be should move, therefore, was, "That the privileges cf the Hudson's Bay Company, which are about to expire, ought not to be renewed." These privileges, he ought 'o txplein, were held, not under the charter, but under an act of Padiament which would expire next year, and the time was roost favourable for the inauguration of a new system. The Secretary of State for the Colonies had brought in a bill to establish a B:itish colony beyond the Rocky Meun'ains, and it was our boast that we could load goods in London and unload them at the western end of Lake Superior - without transhipment. Tbis bad bean dope by rendering the Se Lawrence navigable for great ships by the construction of a canal which avoided the rapids. Thus they were further across the continent of America than the Americans themselves. From Halifai to Lake Superior, thence to the Rocky Moun tains, and to the new colony which the right hole gen tleman (Sir E. B. Lytton) was about to form on the Western coast of America, and so by steam to Va. c pa lmed Island, a direct communication would be opened up from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and fr. m Europe across the continent of A.mE rico. to India and China. Tnat was a grand idea ' and the colonial minister who should car r y it ont would accomplish a greater thing than any of his predecessors. He would op'n up the means of carrying English civilisation to the whole of that vast continent and to the eastern world. He said English civilisation, because he wished the civilisation e f England to becom pared with that of America. The civilisation of England was higher than that of America—and why I Because the English people were free from the infernal blot of slavery. It was the duty of every man who wished well to hi- race and desired the approbation of mankind to nrward this object. What, it might he asked, did he wish ? He wished the right hoc, gentleman would im mediately take steps to ascertain what were the legal rights of the Unison's Bay Company, in order that when they were a wertained, they might he compensated -s-f• r the company roust no longer be allowed to stand in the way of the col mial government, and to be set up as a barrier to the progress ef civilisation. Having com pensated the company, then he would have Government plant a colony, extending from she western shores of Lake Superior to the Rocky Mountains, to j in with the colony to be established on the western side of the continent on the shores of the Pacific, and complete the chain of British colonisationfrom Halifax to Vancouver's Hand. lle en• treated there might b 3 no delay Ow the rester, for delay would create .difficuities. Minnesota would send her hordes, and we shoul-1 have to fight our - battles over again— he battles which some years ago we had to wage upon the tastern shores. Takiog as cinch of the Hudson's Bay Company's land as was conopa ible for the purpose of colonisation, he would erect it at once into is colony. He wool] bring in a bill to create a new law of coloni a tion, and at once form colonies in accordance with it. And when be said this ho c -ntemplated net only North America, but South Australia and South Africa. The same law of colonisation should be applicable to all. If they carried that out they would make an Eogleih nation of Australia, an English nation of the south le int of the Afiecsn continent, and an English nation of North Ame rica. If this scheme was carried out, the English tongue, the English Ise - , the English religion, and English lite rature would become predominant in the world, and that would tend to the happiness of tnankinl. He said, without fear of contradiction, that the English nation was the greatest nation of the earth, and the more the English name, English in.titutiene, and . English litera ture were spread over the various counts. ea of the ivoild, the more should we have contributed to the happiness of mankind at large, and petheted that work which in pro vidence o f God was entinsted to un He had heard it intimated that his notion was to be met ty the previous question, but he could scarcely believe it. The previeus question was a not very dignified way of getting rid of an inconvenient motion, the truth of which could not be denied. I; was in effect saying we admit the truth of the proposition, but this is not the time for bringing it forward. But what was the reason why they ought not DOW to proceed with this principle of colonisation, if that principle were correct ? His first proposition was that the privil .ges of the fludsonea Bey Company, about to ex pire, ought not to be renewed. Did they admit that ? If not, why not say so—why meet it with the previous ques tion I He would not believe until he hoard it that his right hon. friend would meet so indisputable a proposi tion by the previous question—much less could he be lieve that he would oppose it. If they did not intend to renew the privileges of the Hudsoe'e Bay Company it was only fair teat the company ghoul I have warning. If his right bor. friend now refused to give that warning, by acceding to the second proposition, "That the legal validity of the exclusive rights chime 1 by the Hudson's Bay Company under their charter orght at once to be determined by process of law," the Hudson's Bay Corn petty would not perhaps expsct that next spring the right hon. gentleman would bring in a bill 'o renew their privi leges, but they would say he was a cowardly Minister from whom something might be squeezed. Then as to the la-t proposition "That so much of the territ ,, ry hitherto held by the Hudson's Bay Company as may be needed for the purposes of colonisation ought without delay to be resumwe by the Government of this country," would they deny that ? And if not, why object to de dere it ? In the few words he had ventured to offer he had rather shadowed forth the future of England than referred to the past history of this territory. He had bet ught no charge against the Hudson's Bay Company, nor bad he intended to do ge, his object being merely to sate the grounds upo n w hi c h h e founded the resolutions be now placed in the hands of the chair. The hon, and learned gentleman concluded by moving the follo w i nz resolutions —" 1. That the privileges of the Hudson's Bay Compae e, about to expire, r tight not to be renewed. 2. That the legal validity of the exclusive rights claimed by the. teeeeon'e Bay Company, under their charter, ought at . once to be determined by process of law, 3. That so much of the territory hitherto hel I by the Hudson's Bay Company a s may be needed for the per pose of colonisation ought without delay to be resumed by the Government of this country. Lord BURY, in seconiing the resolutions, Feld this was a question involving not only the interests and ex tension of their colonial territory, but which involved, also, Imperial interests. It was row time that the Go vernment should do something in this matter, because the Hudson's Bay Company's Charter, as his learned friend bad said, was about to expire. He hoped the Government would not, in dealing with the question, coincide with the late Government. (" Hear, hear," by some stentorian voice, and much laughter.) Ire meant not, to say anything offensive. He had before him a letter. written by Mr. Merrivale, wh o b e e b een s e em Lary to the colony. The noble lord here read the letter, ale:ring to the contemplated renewal of the ,Uudson'e THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 21, 1858. Bay Company's and stating, in reply to . Charter, an h d is th c e or t r r e a s d p e o o n f a t e h n e ts co in m pany North ; : his Company'sduty to contest the legality of th e America, that he considered H it ud n s o on ila s rt ß s a f y responsibility. Now, the matter upon their own _her Majesty ' s _ rights ; and 'if they wished to do so they int et do so one which concerned her Govern. was s nt and that house, and they ought fully to consider theirnatter before they proceeded to colonisation. He said, " They:should surrender such portions of the terri tory as were claimed by Canada." Now that was beg- ging the whole question. Why should such lands be conceded to the Hudson's Bay Company ? By what authority were they entitled to them ? It seemed to him to be a matter which concerned the whole empire, and not to be confined to the Hudson's Bay Company nor Canada in particular. If Canada were in possession of the whole of the vast territory, she would not be able to manage it. The real question was, whether the Hudson's Bay Company's door was to be closed to the rest of the world, or whether it was to be thrown open to the rest of her Majesty's subjects. The noble lord read, also, a letter from Mr. Shepherd, referring to the Hudson's Bay Company's advantages in their trade in furs and various . other commodities, and having urged that those exclu sive advantages in trade operated with them to exclude the rest of her Majesty's subjects from any participation in them, he said it seemed to him that her Majesty's Go. vernment and the House of Commons had a right to in vestigate the whole subject. (Hear.) He would, if the house would allow him, state how the case stood. But before he did that be begged to remark, that he had very seldom, out of that house, heard Hudson's Bay mentioned, without hearing also the terms " sterile, bar ren, unfit for colonisation." Now that was an erroneous impression. (Hear.) It might be true, and no doubt wan, with respect to some districts, but comparatively only of a very small portion. Bat it was equally true that 500,000 square miles of the territory of the com pany presented as valuable a tract for colonisation as any other portion of her Majesty's dominions. (Hear.) That wasthe nature of the land eastward of the Rocky Mountains—land abounding in rich prairies, and inter sected by great and navigable lakes and rivers. His hon. and learned friend did not allude to the water commu nication, which presented the greatest advantages for aiding in facilitating the trade and produce of the country. A great ship canal bad been constructed, and to encourage those whose enterprise led them to engage in the work, 170,000 acres of land had been set aside, which were distributed in portions to them as they pro gressed. The sale of those lands by the parties proved most productive • and he should not think it at all diffi cult to set aside large tracts of land on each side of any great railroad for distribution amongst those who might be engaged in the enterprise. (Hear, hear.) He hoped the day was not distant when the scheme which his hon. and learned friend had shadovied out would be carried into effect. He would, in a very few words, call atten tion to the claims of the Hudson's Bay Company. It would not be denied that no grant could be valid, if the grantor had not the right to grant it ; and he thought he could prove that in the reign of Charles 11. this country bad no right to snake the grant to the Hudson's Bay Company. He thought he could prove that the land was at the time the property of another Christian people, the subjects of another realm. The company's charter expressly used the words—" All lands that might be in possession of the British Crown at the time of the grant." Now, supposing that to be valid, the treaty of Ryswick at once and for ever upset it. He wished to act as fairly ' as he possibly could towards the Hudson's Bay Com pany ; but it had been said that the property had been inviolably secured by the grant in the hands of the com pany. (Hear.) In 1598, a considerable number of years ' before the charter was granted, Henry IV.. of France, I made M. Le Roux Lieutenant-Governor of the terri tory; and a French writer, so early as 1511, described the country, indicating possession. The noble viscount, having traced the history of the company and the char ter with great minuteness of detail from the year 1670 down to 1713, contended that the Crown had no right t ) grant the charter to the company, the territory indisput ably belonging to France, and not to England. When it became known in France that the British had for the first time established themselves on the shores of Hud son's 'Bay, orders were given to oust them at all hazards. It wee not until the year 1713 that England became indisputably possessed of the territory, the Hud son's Bay Company never, until that period, attempting to interfere with the French trader. The rights of the Hudson's Bay Company were derived from their mono poly of trade, which was granted by the pretended char ter, and from their licence of occupation for 21 years, which would expire next year. With the latter he had nothing to say. Supposing the charter to be valid, the subject of the monopoly of trade was open to certain legal objctions, and in support of this opinion he quoted from the writings of B!acketone and other eminent au thoritier. Hudson's Bay was subject to the same laws which governed other colonies of her Majesty's doimi- alone at that time. Monopoly was considered illegal by the English law, and it was manifest that Charles 11., in granting an exclusive right to trade, granted that which was not his. An exclusive licence to trade meant an ex clusive licence to po - sess the lives, labour, and liberty of all the people of that dieriet. They had heard a great deal about the colonising; spirit of the Hudson's Bay i Company, but he believed it had been much exaggerated. lie thanked the house fur having so patiently heard him, and he deAred to concha le his statement in the memor able words of a Canadian legislator—" This was the noadn;ss of monopoly. Sorely the Hudson's Bay Company did not expect, by their effete and stupid charter, be it right or wrong, to shut np for ever the route of the great West." In that sentiment he full agreed. Nothing could be better expressed. The monopoly of the Hudson's Bay Company could no longer be continued, if the people of England were only awakened to the importance of the subject. He trusted that the eyes of the public would be opened to this great question, and that her Majesty's Ministers woul 1 not be backward in acting on the hints they had got that evening. Mr. GLADSTONE said he believed he only expressed the unanimous feeling' of the house, when he.expressed the great interest with which he had listened to the dis cussion. (gear.) The boo. and learned member for Shef field was a veteran in the cause. On this and on other sulj ens connected with British North America he had been the expositor of early truths, most of which bad attained to realieation, and he (Mr. Gladstone) was convinced that the sub stance of the history which the hon. and learned mem ber bad given, and the opinions he had expressed, were so sound and just that they must become the bases of the policy of this country ; and, as a veteran in the cause, he was sure the hon. and learned gentleman must have witnessed with pleasure the accession to that cause that night of one who, though a novice in years, was yet in knowledge and accomplishments a master of the eulj e:t (Hear, hear.) If he said no more in reference to the speech of the noble viscount it was only because that noble lord had so completely mastered the subject that it would be presumptuous in him (Slr. Gladstone) to be profuse in complimen's to one who was so much his superior. The hen, and learned gentleman divided his argument int i theee propositions. He urged that the privileges of the Hudson's Bay Company, about to ex pire, ought not to be renewed ; that the' legal validity of the exclusive rights claimed by the company under their charter ought to he at once deters-nine Iby process or law ; and that so much of the territory hitherto held by the company as might he needed for the purpose of colonisation ought without delay to be reeumed by the Government of this country. Of these points it seemed to him that the most important was the second. In point of fact, the first and th'rel prepositions, to a con siderable eaten% were not only connected with but de pendent upon it. The hon. and learned gentleman had pointed out that much of the conduct of the Hudson's Bay Company with reference to the resumption of the land in their territory, on which must depend the issue of the investigation which he recommended, was unjaz tifiable ; and no one could have listened to the speech of the noble viscount without perceiving that this was a very serious matter. (Hear, hear.) There - was a large Ina. tion of the earth with regard to the character cf which we bad been systematically kept in the dark—(hrar,hear) by those whose interests alone were concerned in prescrv . ing that ignorance. Take only one proof of that assertion. Let any one read the interesting work of Governor Simp son—his " Voyage round the Worlr —written without any special reference to the Hudson's Bay Company, and be will find that be gives a glowing description of the capabilities both agricultural and 'for purpo s es of eel a nisation, of much of the territory of the Hudson's Bay C impany. Well, last year the right bon. gentleman the rnenib?r for Taunton, then Colonial Secretary , mo v ed for a oommittee of the house to inquire into the affairs of the Hudson's Bay Company, and before that committee questions were raised which seriondy involved the rights of the company, aid Governor Simpson was called as a witness. The hon. and learned member for Sbeffiel I then quoted to him the statements with regard to the capabi lities of the territory of that country ; beta change came over the spirit of his dream, and he reported that all who thought to settle in those inhospitable regions would be racked with fogs and geld; and when one of the commit tee,nthuei t yG w : i W t v h ear aii to )rl a, incon v enientced altho u ghi n re a n e t o u dt r i if difficulty ill to , yu f ferreted c r h e oe t nn e s d hi doeeurtahb attemptedli considerable b i n o g o e k, to reconcile tie; two account, when before the commit tee he wished to prove that it was no use to try to pluck and lay bare a company winch had nothing to lose. It was undoubted that a large portion of that territory L' admirably adapted for colonisation, a n d it was e u d.' certain that the Hudson's Bay Comp an y was the einem; of colonisation. Ali its views, habits, purposes, and ar rangements were not directed to colonisation, but t) o f . jests which required that colonisation should be kept off. If it was necessary in Scotland, in order to create a deer park, to clear the sheep from the region, so in the Hud eon's Bay territory. in order to the carrying on of the fur trade, it was indispensab.e that all colo. iation should he kept off their unyielding region. His noble friend had shown that the rights of the Hudson's Bay Com• pany to their territory were at least doubtful. It was at least dou'Aful whether, when their charter was granted, the territory did not belong to France. The hon. and learned member for Sheffi Id had shown that in the time of William 111. the charter depended on eir cueamrss.'anTceisse e xel u wh i ch rive licence hig w as h h ave but given the t ceased b o u the i c ri om g p e a v n e y n y only to trade with the I n dians : bu Hudson's Bay Comp an y h a d b een to exclu s d in e e a s l s l t o r f a t4lie 1 a - id yet when their ch ar t er was given trade with thee Indians was not only cont em pl a t e d , b ut other trading I also, and the trade in mineral s espec i ally. His nolla friend said that the Hudson's Bay Company had writt en up in their territory the words, ''No thoroughfare;" and weereas another usual mode of inscriptien was, "No a imiesion except 0 s bu,incep," the Hudson's Bay Corn ea) ease epc c'ary to exclude all admissionpepahniyaw bad ta ason bDE ineSe. (Hear) His noble friend was i i 'tit vhen he sell that there had been no change in that respect, and that it was essentially a part of the under- taking of the company that all human beings, uneon- would be much better to leave the whole matter to her nected with themselves, should be excluded from their Majesty's Government than to adopt those resolutions. territory. This was a most interesting question, and , Sir E. B. LYTTON--Sir, it is with some reserve that though it touched A coun t r y mtsch of which was inhos- i I approach the.great and difficult questions involved in pitable and uninhabitable, there was much of romance ' the resolutions of my hon. and learned friend. The e a o h n o n u e t e i t t e . d, Although law you u w rom ance c t h e e w p e e r o e p lnotpeople o f_ easilythose 1 . . Government, as yet, are in the condition of negotiators. ' I the lives they led to the law under which ' Certain distinct propositions, as the right hon. gentle theyregions and tauurdnedrofrmo were placed, there never could be a more serious or man who spoke last told ne, were made to Canada by a more interesting question. There was one other point the late Government with regard to any districts now in connection with the charter of the company to which covered by the charter of the Hudson's Bay Company he wished to allude. At present the Hudson's Bay Com pany in possession , by virtue of their charter, of a were territory extending from the sources of the Saskatchewan And, whatever cause there may be to suppose that river, a thonsand miles, to the foot of the Rocky Mona- I Canada will reject those proposals, still every motive of taina. If you admitted the right they claimed by virtue policy, as well as of respect to that great colony would of their charter and their exclusive right of trading, it desire that any other scheme for colonisation in us was still doubtful, looking to the language of the char- ma k e . may have her sympathy and concurrence. ter, whether it was intended to give the Hudson's Bay that' region . Company that vast tract of territory, and whether the (Hear.) Still, Sir, I ow n t h a t the prohability that land granted to them was not that on the bay, and on Canada will reject the proposals made to her is so note the lakes and rivers in the immediate neighbourhood of rions, and the interests involved in this vast question the bay. The Hudson's Bay Company did not at first , are so g reat, that I cannot hesitate to state, at lea s t, the possess themselves of this tract of land extending to the 1 general . Rocky Mountains, but for 100 years they departed a i I views by which I venture to think we ou g ht to ... very little from the bay; and they only spread themselves be guided. ( Hear.) In glancing over th e vas t reg i ons over that vast territory when they formed their fortunate d evo t e d to the fur trade, which are loosely said to be as coalition with the right hon. gentleman the member for large as Europe, the first thought of every intelligent Coventry. (Hear.) It would appear that serious ques• En Tishman must be that of humiliation and amaze . tions in point of law bad been raised against the privi leges and rights exercised by the Hudson's Bay Com- Ii it p . oisible that so great a segment of the earth, pany, and the opinions of legal authorities had been under the English sceptre, can have so long taken —he meant the opinions of counsel, not any judi- been abandoned as a desolate hunting ground for cial decision—a Long others those of Lord Brougham, wandering savages and wild animals ? I put aside, for a Mr. Sergeant Spankie, and Sir Arthur Pigott, which 1 , moment, excu ses of soil and climate ;it is always pre bore., out the opinions which had been expressed in that debate. It was said that there was some hardship in sumptuous to decide hastily between man and nature—. raising this question at the present time ; that the"com- to say what man may or may not do t o conquer t h ose pany had been in possession of these rights for nearly two o bstacles of soil and climate which nature may raise centuries, and though the grant tothem might have been against him. It is enough for us to cling to the grand originally wrong, yet it bad gradually inured and hard- principle that civilisation should be left to find its own ened into right by the lapse of time. That was not a .view which the House of Comm ons h a d a s y e t consented voluntary channels; that we should not f o rc e it, b u t to recognise, for in 1849 the H ouse o f C ommon s voted should tak e if . (Hear, hear.) No care not to obstruct an address to the Crown prayin g th a t l ega l steps mi g ht one can deny that a trade which preserves wild animals be taken to test the validity of the rights of the corn- and has a direct interest in excluding civilised men does pany. He (ilr. Gladstone) moved the address in the house, and he thought th a t th e ph rase "legal steps" !obstruct civilisation, if it claims territorial rights in any district which civilised men are disposed to cultivate and meant a legal process in an adequate court of law, ac bit (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman the cording to the good old constitutional custom which hal ini‘a • . . existed for 200 years, when companies were found in member for the University of Oxford summed up the possession of rights which were hostile to the public in- general evidence before our committee in the first two terests, that those rights were tried in the courts of law, of a series of resolutions which he proposed to that coin , in which the companies were quite competent to defend t • i themselves. But the noble earl the Secretary for the Colo- mittee on first, that the country capable of colonisa should 'be withdrawn from the jurisdiction of the Hud nies understood theaddressina.different sense, and instead I sot ho Bay Company ; secondly, that the country in of causing judicial process to be adopted, contented himself I capable of colonisationshould be left to that jurisdiction. with obtaining from the company a statement of their In the two abstract principles involved i n th ese propo nent parte of course—and on that ex parte state- sitione lies the readiest solution of th e grave difficulties ment he obtained the opinion of the law officers of the that beset the question ;it is the attempt of a practised Crown, who stated that in the case laid before them they 1 s tatesman to effect a compromise by w hi c h c i v ili sa ti on saw no reason to question the rights of the company ; ma y gain all it asks at present, and bumaaity may not and then it was intheated to a young man who was only preserve to the savages scattered over frozen struggling to educete hiueself in the University of Glasgow deserts, inaccessible to regular government, the trade on that it was at his option, as a private individual, to try wench they depend for existence, but guard them from the question of the rights of the company. (Hear, hear.) the terrible demoralisation produced by rival bribes of it should, perhaps, be stated that the company never ardent spirit-, and the strife and bloodshed among showed any disinclination to submit their claims tojadi- themselves, or between themselves and the whites, cial decision in a court of law. He confessed it appeared which might follow if the administrative machinery to him that there was a great deal of error in the notion which it is the interest of a trading company to that the pessestions of th e company were con secrated by esta bli s h were d estroyed before any effective substitute time. It was a mistake to suppose that the flourishing could be found. These are the reasons which will monepnly which we now saw was the product of the weigh upon the Government in considering the renewal charter of Charles 11, For 150 years after that charter of the licerice. They will certainly no; renew the was granted this body dragged on a feeble ands piritless licence over any part of the Indian territory which pro existence. The pretent flourishing monopoly was not the mites early settlement ; but they reserve for farther de child of the charter of Charles 11., hut it was the child of liberation whether they will renew it for a limited period one who understood his business, the right hon. gentle- over the more reuatts and northern regions, taking care man the meinber fon Coventry--(hear, hear) —whose should that the Government shall have always the power to Bence on this occasion they must all regret, for ho withdraw from that Ecorse any land that may be re have been present to have received the honours he ha d quired for the uses of civilized life ; that they shall retain gained. (Hear, hear.) But in admitting that you at once all the imperial rights to fisheries and mines, and what , - stripped the company of its character for antiquity, and I I ever may call forth human.industry and enterprise in gave it a character somewhat of modernism. The Poe' pursuits more conge n i a l t o our age than that gloomy sessions of the company as they now stood were recent 1 trade in the skins of animals which seems to carry us possestione. No one could hold that there was any back to a date before the annals of histcry. Now, hardship in taking steps to teat the right of the company, although the renewal of the license may possibly form a althoughgh care should be taken with regard to the msoae part of any fe esh negotiations with the Hudson's Slay you proceeded. If the company b a d right tds Company for arrangements respecting the Red :River the hon. and learned member for Sheffi:ll had said g Stetletnent ; yet it ought in principle to be considered they would not be deprived_cif them, except on compheant- apart from much arrangements, and on its own merits.— sation awarded to them. It might also appear teat of in lands held as yet o. ly by the Indians does the exclu although the company had no great rights in pointliberal sive license or does it not work well for the Indians? law, in p int of equity there were grounds fur a .. It is a question wholly distinct from that of the charter; treatment of their claims, and there might be anetcher the license gives none cf the territ atial rights which the sity for sone iotermediate mode of dealing with whos charter asiumesit involves no principle of compwisa question ; nor must it be supposed that t ,038 tion in cote of any lands which colonists may require, wished fey a legal investigation of this question w ish edwith the which it ought to Le legarded simply as an instrument by to deal hardly with those who were connected which the Government can effect that safeguard from company, and who may have invested their property in broil and disorder which in so vast and profitless a win its undertakings, and who ought to be fairly dealt with. adrness the Government i 3 not able of itself to establish. But it was clear that the British public had rights in this But, whatever doubts may be entertained as to the matter. He did not now say that it we were to colonise second proposition of the right hon. gentleman the this territory our colonisation was to proceed direct from member for Oxford, that Itnd incapable of colonisation this conotty, or whether we should recogni e Canada as should be left to the jurisdiction of the Hudson's the medium for carrying out that object. That was an Bay Company, no one can dispute the sours muss of important question, and one which he would leave to th e the first proposition, that the country capable of consideration of the responsible Ministers of the Crown, celoniaition should be withdrawn frem that jetisdic- But without inquiring whether Canada or this country tion ; and turniog our eyes from a trade which, unlike was to undertake the duty of founding this new colony, all other commerce, rests its profits, not on the redemp yet he might say that this country had rights in the tion, but on the maintenaece of the vei!deraeep, it must , matter, and that the necessity of opening this field of cheer ui to see already, in the great border lands of enterprise imposed duties open us at home. However this hitherto- lotto pitable region, the epening proFpact leniently we might be inclined to deal with the corn • pany, we must not allow this enormous obstruction on the road to a great part of the earth, possessed of sum vast capabilities, to remain until we had ascertained that strict law at ,od in the way of its removal. (Hear.) He came now to the last point which ho wished to bore eider,coo- and that teat, what course was te be taken on the present occasion. He was sure the hon. and learned gentleman and the noble viscount would be sati s fied with woull feel that a great deal bad been done towards este blithing their case. (He a r, hear.) He (M r . Gl a d s t one ) of civilised life, (He ar , h ea t.) Al rea d y , b y t h e P ac ifi c , , Vanceuverni lelatal has been added to th e soc i a l cone al u nities of mankint. Already, in th e l arge t err i tory w hi c h extends west of the Rocky Mou n t a i ns , f rom th e A mer i can frontier up to the skirts of the R u s s i an d oma i ns , we are laying the foundations of what m a y become, after, a magnificent abode for the hu man race , an d nos eastward of the RockyMou r e ei n e, w e are i nv it e d t o see in the settle sent of th e Red Ri ver , th e nuc l eus i f a new the e ff ect of their epeechea in the house, and th a t th e y colony, a rampart Ag ai ns t an y h os til e i nroa d s f rom t h e Americau frontier, a n d an essent i a l arch, as it were, to that great viaduct by w hi c h we h ope one d ay t o coone w would not be suspected of want of s y m p a thy w ith t h e the hartours of V ancouver w ith t h e G u lf of S. L a e mover and seconder of this motion, if he su g g e st e d th a t rence. This is the district efft red t o C ana d a , an d I thi n k they would do well to leave the qu es ti on i n th e h an d s o f my hon, and learned friend has goo d reason to etume the Government. They had heard the speeches of th e that Canada will decline the task of f orm i ng it pr into a mover and seconder of the motion, and they would re colony at her (ten responsibility and charge. If the an edge, from what had passed that night, great assistance swer trern Canada be unfavourable, we have two options towards determining the course tbey should take. If the — e i t h er t o l eave the di• t r ot, as now, under the jurisdic house was to go to a division now, it would tend to tion of the Hudson's B.ey Company, which nothing but create a f l- , e) impression out of doors, and therefore he absolute necessity should jutity, or to take it into our should be gratified if the hon. and learned gentleman, own hands and form a colony, which will, no doubt, one having Interred to the statement of the Minister of the eay constitute a confederate part of a great Canadian Crown on the subject—unless that statement was en- system, and which might meanwhile, perhepe, be admi tirely hostile to his views—would leave it in the hand s ni,tere-cl by a Government in concurr ence with Canad i. f the Government to deal with this important q u es ti on . To this there have been two oljections. The tir t t is th e (Cheers.) presumed expense. This Ido not at present anticipate. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that, when in office, he All healthful colonies shoull be self-supporting, and I gave this question a great deal of consideration, and bad agree cnith my hen. and Yearned •friend in the general moved for a committee on the subject. The right bon. theory he advances with so much eloquence and wisdom. gentleman who had just spoken seemed to think that Colonies will be self-supporting in proportion as you leave them to raise their own revenues under free institutions the validity of the charter was the main question to be • • ' t hat suc h - I . The second of as, considered, but that was not the opinion of the members , peopled by Canadians ; that, owing to the easier access ( f that committee, or even of the right hon. gentleman 1 fr ;m the American frontier, the majority of immigrants himself at the time. Oa the contrary, he thought he would he A merican i e. T i ti i iechj it e n c to ttn t do t es not alarm me. might say that, almost without exception, it was consie American ln the firs t te p r l r a i c t e o , ry tao e u s g the the readiest access s c ,l e does from nott." dered expedient to maintain the monopoly of the Hod- follow that thy sta ouli all be Americans. Probably soo's Batt. Company. He knew that anything like a l a rg e netnietre of our own countrymen, especially th e monopoly of trade was very unpopular, bat his duty was Sc otch, would flock there, as well as Americans, and as cot to consider what was unpopular or poplar, but what settledas British colonists is pro wasf or Atntricane, once . i't b'e that they would soon 'sleet ft' their national feel light. It was n ecessary t h a t th ose i mmense terri ibnag s and interests with the land in which th e y li ve d, an d tories should be u n d er th e governrnen t .o f some b o d y cr the conditions of the Imperial Government. (Hear, ether in order to .prevent collisions between the native h:ar.) It has been so aleee 'y in Canada. It would be radiate and the adventurers who might otherwise fleck so at Red River ; because all history tells us bow soon to them. The incursion of whits trappers and hunters mere if at all of kindred race, take, as it were, the stamp colour of the land in which they settle. We, s and upon a larg e sca l e wou ld not on l y exterm i na t e th e g ild of tf t troth. - in this than 16 country, are an instance ie. No les s anintale by whi c h th e I n di an t rappers an d hu n ter s li ve d, but the Indians th emse l ves i n th e course o f a v er counties in t .is kingdom were given up t o the iminiera y few tion of the Danes, and probably the great mass of the years, ne h a d been the case i n corres po n ding territories ptpulatan in these counties, such as Yorkshire, Lin-' ia the United States. (Hearn In regard to the ques- eolnshire, Norfolk, ate of Danish origin to this day. Yet tion of the chari er o f th e thrwson's Bay Company, he in a very short time they became as heartily English and thou - At it would be a matter of gr eat public convenience as hostile to the Danes of the Bettie as the Angl •-Saxons if the rights of the company ruder that charter could bo of Kent. Nay, even the Normans, despite their pride definitively ascertained. For his part he would be glad as a congesting race, despi'e the difference of language, to sea the whole of the charter done away with, and the became in the third generation as intensely Engieli and whole of that part of the territory not under cultivation, an i-French in their national feelings as if they had been' but which was capable of it, colonised. More than 100 nexonTnegns. Ia short, no matter wh ere men com e years ago the Gov ernmen t o f t h at t i me were anx i ous to from, place them in ground covered h the British fles a certain wheth er th e c h arter was val i d. or not. They overshadowed, though at a distance, b y the mild British referred the question to the law officers of the Crown, sceptre, and they will soon be British in sentiment and and Lord Mansfield and Sir F. Ryder expressed their feeling. All that I say on this scoreda s do not, on account joint opinion, "that, considering how long the company of such jealousies and fear', obstruct civilisation. Here had enj :yeti this charter, we do not think it advisable is land fit for settlement ; if civilised men will settle in for her Majesty'a Government to make any express order it, let them. Never let us mind the difficulties c-f access, until some authoritative jadgment is de.ivered on the soil, or climate. Leave the difficulties to them. , Nature ease." - • and man will fight their own b a ttl e an d make their o wn Mr. ROEBUCK—He ar , h ear. peace. With regard to the fitness of the place itself for Mr. LABOUCILERE said be was anx i ous, when in colonisation, I -am contented to take the opinion of the office, to have the poi nt settled by a court of justice, and Hudson's Bay Company themse lees ;f:r, in a letter from fur this purpose he applied to Sir Richard B thell and tSe company to Lord Glenelg, February 10, 1837, when another eminent lawyer, and they told him in converaa- asking for a renewal of the licence, I find it said, " the tion that they would not recommend proceeding by quo soil and climate of the country of the Red River weneante against a company of -this description. They settlement are favourable to colonisation; that it was did not think it light to raise at this period of time the intended that this settlement should be peopled by mi. question of the general validity of the charter, except so grants from Britain, and that the company hoped to far as it related to the exclusion from the territory of establish in time a valuable export trade from thence to a persons acting in violation of the regulation s . Af ter the mother country in wool w , flax, tallowy and'other re- g • leaning consulted English and colonial lawyers, his (M r . cultural produce." Sanguine hopes ! not realised since Labounhnre's) opinion was that, so far as territorial 1837 under the auspices of the company, but which may rights were concerned , the charter was good, but that be more rapidly fairs led when the company withdraws w ee re tpect to the territory for which they held a from the place the shadow of its chilling protection. licence the Crown might interfere. s!..nd bo it observed (Hear.) With regard to the ssfety of a settlement at the that all the lend they hal(' under a licence was far better Red River from all or iitary attacks that might be made in soil and climate and more adapted for colonisation, on it from the American quarter, I have a most sails and the licence was never given except with the distinct fact or y report from Sir W. Eyre, the lieutenant-general reservation on the part of the Crown to establish col e- commanding the forces i n British North America. He me•s to any extent, The bill now before the house with stat es th at " t h e Red River settlement censitts of about respect to New Celadouia was a proof of this. It was an , 8,000, of whom 2 000 are Irish, E ng lish, and Scotch ; imperi a l r i g ht t o us e this vast territory for the benefit of the remaining 6,000 all mostly half-breeds. They are ge mankind, and not to shut out any part of it, unless on 1 r.erally good shots, skilled i n th e use o f fire arms, and grounds of po i c y, f r om persons disposed to coleniee it. good horsemen. A local force or militia cf at least 1,000 He believed that the Hnd-on'a Bay Company had acted I men could besasily organicel and embedie I." The bar hu-nanely t owar d s the na ti ve s. They had improved the ricks are p:rrectty habitable, and the post defensih'e, condition of tLo Indian tribes, given them a value in i except against Leavy or inance, which it world be diffi their oven eyes, and made them better and useful men. jcut to bri ng rip against it. N orwa y is the chief horse He would s a y, t a k e awa y f rom the Iludsen's Bty Cain-1 depot ,•f the coi n pany—the poeition m ight he mule im party any p ar t of th e t err it or y that you can celonise, I pregnable. All communica!ion between Inke Superior but do net throw these vast territories open to ali and the Red River is now, according to Sir G. Simpson, comers, Such a course would devolve on her Ma- iinpracticabls for any body of troop , . "A few indivi jiety's, Government a great amount of responsi- duals might go, but not any f ence. - There id abundance bill y. Upon the w h o l e , h e th oug ht the Hudson's of provisions in the country ;no want need be appre- Bay Company had answered its purposes, and that, hended ; water is good, wood abun twit. The climate is with the restricti ons b e had suggested, it was severe in winter, but healthy at all seas ,es." These entitled to a renewal of the charter. He could not 1 few extracts may suffice to show that a settlement once advise the house to cut prematurely the knotty points) established would be safe from danger from without. suggested by the bon, and learned gentleman's reselu • ; As regards the fur t ra d e i n th i s district, I nee d ecsrcely tions. With regar d t o th e fi rs t reso l ut i on, h e (M r . L a - ' say, that if you take the land from the Hudson's Bay beuchere) suggested that the privileges granted to the Company, the monopoly that goes 'with the land will Hudson's Bay Company should be continued. As to expire. To attempt to maintain there the monopoly the second resolution, the law officers of the Crown had ' would be impossib!e, and only give rise to perpetual feuds. expressed an opinion different from that of the hon. In fact, I must be pardoned if I say that there is good and learned gentleman ; and as to th e thirdresolution,reason t o believe that that monopoly has practically in I that was a truism. - Upon the whole, he thought it a great m.asure ceased to meet in those parts. ...Major Seton reports from Fort Garry itself—" The Hud son's Bay Company have long since abandoned in prac. tics their pretensions to exclusive trade in this district and far beyond it." Captain Palliser writes word : "That monopoly there is unattainable now and for ever more ; that the people engaged in the illicit trade are in habitants of the Indian land, and born on its soil. Most of them half-breeds, they are British subjects, and what ever the rights of the Hudson's Bay Company under the charter, they think it a very hard case that they should be debarred from trading in the land of their birth. There appears to be a shadow of justice in this complaint ; but, just or not, the opposition exists, an i nothing short of ex tirpating the people engaged in it can ever stop it," Indeed, this report is eo far confirmed by Mr. Shepherd himself, on the part of the Hudson's Bay Company, that he states, in a letter to the Colonial-office : " That the diversion of the fur trade is carried on by the inhabitants of the Red River settlement, who, regardless of the Hudson's Bay Company, conduct an illicit trade in spirituous liqours and furs in various parts of the country." I think, therefore, there can be no doubt that when the company yields the land it must resign the monopoly. It will be an after consideration by what regulations the trade should in that case be carried on so as to maintain order and peace, and respect that considerate humanity which is due to the Indians. But now comes the diffi culty. Tne land we would thus dispose of for colonisa tion is within the charter of the Hudson's Bay Company, and if that charter be valid, the land belongs to the com pany, but not the monopoly of the trade, except as in cludes the right of ownership to keep others off the land. The law officers of the late Government, men of very high distinction, consider— " That the Crown cannot now, with justice, raise the question of the general validity of the charter, but that on every legal principle the company's territorial ownership of the lands granted. and the rights incident thereto, as, for example, the right of excluding from their country per- sons acting in violation of their regulations, ought to be deemed valid." While this opinion of the late law officers remains before us, unexamined by our own law officers, it would be pre sumptuous in me to express any opinion of my own. It is our intention to submit the question to the most care ful and deliberate censideration of our law officers, and ascertain from them whether in equity and justice we could advise the Crown or recommend to Parliament any mode by which to facilitate a judicial decision upon this venerable title-deed. But I am bound in justice to the company to say that, though it might be very desirable to try the validity of the charter, it is not absolutely necessary to do so for any immediate objects of colonisa tion. It is but just to the company to say that it has not hitherto shown itself stubborn or intractable. It does not say, "You shall not have the land which our charter covers." It says, on the contrary, "Take whatever land you please, Heaven forbid we should stand in the way of civilisation. We are not the fit agents to colonise, we have not the means for it ; we tried it at Vancouver's, and are glad to get rid of the experiment; take, then, whatever land you desire within the range of the charter. But"—hers comes the critical but !—" we rely on your honesty ;"—(hear)—in other words, "if you take from us that which we actually possess without proving that we have not the right to possess it—we are human beings, and we expect some kind of compensation." (Hear.) Seeing all the embarrassments cf this dilemma, I cannot but admire the skill with which, in pursuance of the re port of our committee, the right hon. gentleman the member for Taunton devised a scheme which was in tended to unite the objects we have in view with a tem perate conciliation towards the claims of the company. He proposed to cede this territory to Canada if she would agree to open a line of communication to it, and give satisfactory evidence of her intention to take steps for laying out townships and settling and administering the affaws of these diets-lets ; and as to the Hudson's Bay Company, he proposed to renew i's trading liesece for 21 years over the a i derness cot fitted for colonisation ; and that three commissioners—one chosen by Canada, one by the Imperial Government, and one by the company —should consider and report what, under all the circumstarwes of the case, might be justly payable to the company in consequence of such contemplated annexation, and in respect of property which they might be required to surrender. Well, if Canada reject these proposals, our hands are free for fresh negotiations and unfettered action. Meanwhile, to sum up my answer to the hon. and learned gentleman, first, I thinle the licence ought not to be renewed except where civilisa tion Las no requirements an 1 law no other inaelinery but that of the company, Secondly, with regard to raising the question of the validity of the charter, it will be submitted to our lax officers, and we can obviously say nothing one way or other till their opinion is re ceived. Thirdly, I grant the expediency of strengthen ing our empire in North America by subetitutieg, and in one connected frontier line, the colonies of Great Britain for tbe hunting grounds of a trading company. (Hear.) It is my sincere wish and hope that arrange ments for that object may be effected in a spirit of reasonable conciliation to all parties concerned, and that we may thus lay the foundatieri of a civil,sed community, upon those principhs of humanity towards the red men, and of !valour and honesty toward , the white, which our civilisation should carry al - tag with it wherever it ex tends, as the celeniatre of old carried along with them a fragment of their native earth, and a light from the altar of their ancient council hall. (Cheers.) Toe company have assured us of their desire to meet the necessities of the case in a rpadt of concession, and I do hope that early next session we may propose to Parliament arrange ments that will receive its approval. In the object be fore us we all have a common interest—to fulfil the mis ,ion of the An 10-Sax m race, in spreading into-lU,r;enee, freedom, and Christian faith wherever Providence gives us the dominion rl the soil, and industry and skill build up citi-s in the desert. (Hear, bear.) Sir, hoping that what I have said will satin-fy my hon. and learned friend at least as to the general vie vs of the Govern meat, I have only to thank the house for the indulgence ith which it has heard me. (Cheers.) Lord J, RUSSELL said the right hon. gentleman 11.) had just sat down had a dEcult tack before him, and ho was quite sure that the house would be inclined to give him whatever time he might think necessary in order to decide on the course of policy alich might seam most ueeful to the country, and he might say, for the benefit of mankind. There was one part of the question which was easy, or at least appareelly easy, but they had no sooner settled the easy part of the question than they found themselves in an nl uost in-exalt:sable diffi cu'ay. That part which was easy was that part of the question which his right horn frien6 the member for the University, the member for Taunton, and the Secretary of State were all aireed upon. They said there was part of this. territory that was fit for c,donisation. So far they were sailing in smooth water, and there were no reeks in their way, but immediately they got beyond this part of the question there arose a great number of questions be fore the matter could be settled. One question was., how much was there of this territory which was capable of colonisation ? They bad next the question, by whom should this territory be colonawd? Should it be by Cana• diens, or by emigrants from this country? And they had then this further question—what were the rights of the Fludeen'e Bey Company? He believed that the fludsou's Boy Company considered this entirely as a comm9rcial speculation. Thi y had not to deal wide a company like the East India Company, having a dominion and great power and patronage, whice they did not like to lose. The Hudson's Bay Company looked only to profit, and provided that was secured, and that their capital was replaced, they took no further interest in the question. There remained that which he was afraid was at the bottom of the question, which they must solve before they could go farther in the project they all enter tained, namely, what were the legal ri g ht s o f t hi s camPa"3 7 ? The company sail, "Take the whole territory if you will, but do net let us be unjustly de prived what we consider our property." -W e ll , but what was their property, and what were their rights? His right lion. friend (alr. Labouchere) had made propo sitions to Canada, to which, it appeared, there was no nnswer. The question might to be solved, and unless we took some steps wo might Lays the United States mak ing encroachments, and we might not have a f iir gelation of this question. Well, then, it appeared to him, notwith standing the opinion of the law officers of the Crown, that they ought to have the decision of some legal tribu nal, bscause the whole quest ion of the Hudson's Bay Cori; pany depended upon it, If they had no claim to the territory they had no right to compensation, but if, on the other hand, they had a claim and Parliament thought that for the purposes of the country the territory should be taken from them, then they had a claim for cornpen cation which could not be resisted. lie had no doubt that Lord Mani-field and Sir Dudley Ryder gave what was a wise opinion in their day., In 1749 they said, "Here is a charter granted by the Crown ; there is no particular reason of state why that charter should be disturbed. It would be an ungracious thing for the Crown to raise the question, and try to drive out those to whom the Crown itself has given this privilege." Tbey acted on the prin ciple of Sir Robert Walpele, ‘• pieta non movere." But we had come to a differetnt period —we had come to atime when these questions were all disturbed, and it was ne cessary to get some decision, whether by the Privy Conn • cil or a court of law, was a poict on which he could give no epinioc, hut they ought to have some authoritative de cision in the first instance as to what tire tights of the company were. His Iron, and learned friend said in hie third resolution that so much of the territory as was fit for colanisation ought to be re,served. Observe, he did not say :hat the whole teritery stool l be reserved, but so much of it as might be used for co l ouisation. Thatseemed to take it far granted that there was a portion in which nly furred animals .and a few sea' tared Indians could find subsistence. What portions were and what were not fit for colonisation was a question for the ex •cu ive go- Trineen , . Wi' h rev.rd to the resolution that ides fah. vilegea of the Milton's Bay Company ought not to be renewed, ho was quite ith the declaration. which the right ho-r. gerAtb_man had made. He thought it f t. l- .t • • the " t ir • the .1110,4 ire per. • rice v.a. , r1;41_16 , of the eerie son's Bay Company should be ramertained. The prospect before us was of immense megnitude. There seas tbe a hoar question cf the coloniitatioiit of that opuntry fern Vanceuver'e Iland to the backs of the S - . Lawrence, and the route ahrig which railroads and other roads night be kid might depend on Lae decision that might be taken during the next twelve montas. The questior, therefore, was of vast importance, and must ccoopy the attention of Government, and wben the right lion, gen leman had matured his plan it would Le well worthy the attention of the house. He was inclined to think it was fir better that they should have a separate cola, y than that they ehould a tech that vest territory to Canada. In the fiat place tiler° might be a considerable coe, some roil Lary force might be necessary. If se, Canada would hardly undertake the expense •of military aid• He thought it would be worthy_of this country to establish in that territory two or three cloz,ies, which might in course of time resemble in some respects the great states of the American Union. Mr. A. MILLS contended that it was not desirable that the charter of the company should be at once dis continued in the case of those districts at all events which were incapable of colonisation. He might also be permitted to observe that there appeared to him to be much force in the remark that we ought to do every thing in our power to protect the native Indian race, which his own experience tended to prove was rapidly becoming extinguished. (Hear.) We should employ all means to delay at least as much as possible the extinc tion of those races. In the spirit of the resolutions he quite concurred, and would only add that he hoped the day was not far distant when the legal question that had been raised should be finally settled. (Hear, hear.) Mr. LOWE thought if it was desirable to take from the Hu ?son's Bay Company the territory of which they were possessed, there could be little difficulty in the matter ; and if the company were not entitled to those possessions they were not entitled to compensation. But the Hudson's Bay Company were a trading and a commercial company, and if by the legislation of that house their trade should be injured and taken away from them, then they would be entitled to compensation for the injury. He confessed there was one thing which he should much regret to nee, and that was the claims and rights of the Hudson's Bay Company subinitted to the decision of a court of law. (Hear, hear.) The Hud son's Bay Company had received their charter, with certain grants of land, from Charles 11., and if, after having held those lands fcr 200 years, they were now to be taken from them by an act of Parliament, he must say that such a proceeding would be a great wrong, and a wrong of which the Government, should they have recourse to it, would have great reason to be ashamed. (Hear, hear.) This he would lay down as a maxim, that no country ought to form a colony which she was not able to defend. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentlemen then referred to the evidence of Colonel Lefroy and other authorities who .had surveyed the Hudson Bay Company's territory, showing the manner the company carry on their trade in the different parts of the territory. (Hear, hear.) The proposition or scheme for establishing a new colony would simply, if it were carried out, place a large num , ber of British subjects in the hands of the American Go vernment the first time a war between the two countries took place. Then again, before a colony was established there should be some reasonable prospects of its success. To establish a colony might be matter of policy, but success must depend on individual interests, and on com mercial exertions. What bona fide interest would people have in going to the Red River settlement ? If they established a colony there, and failed in tempting people to proceed thither they would be doing the gr e atest pis sills mischief. It was, in his opinion, quite clear that it was not desirable to introduce competition into the fur trade. If they established a colony at the Red River settlement, which was English in name and American in spirit, they might be laying the foundation for a war between England and America. Mr. GILPIN said that his attention had always been directed to the condition of the natives under the rule of the Hudson's Bay Company rather than to the queetisn of the monopoly or no monopoly of the company. He was at a loss to understand the personnel of the Hud son's Bay Company. Its capital was undoubtedly in very few hands. Believing that the claims of the com pany were illegal, he hoped the resolutions would be adopted. (Hear, hear.) Mr. KINNAIRD, whilst he agreed with the noble lord the member for London that the legal questicn ought to be settled, thought with the hon. member for Kidderminster that it was most unwise unnaturally to foster colonisation. He denied the justness of the ale gations of cruelty brought against the company. Com paring the condition of the natives under the company with that of those under the Americans, he was of opinion that the former appeared in a much more favour able light. Mr. C. FORTESCUE adverted to the inconsistency between the art usnAste of the hon. member for Not tingham (Mr. Gilpin:) against the withdrawal f the pro tecting influence cf the Hudson's Bay Company, and Lis recent obj ction to the continued presence of our squadron on the west coast of Africa. Ile (Jr.N Fur tescue) contended that the natives had been treated with the greatest consideration by the e..?rvants of the company. The hon, and learned member for Sheffield had, be thuughtf given a very highly coloured picture of relations subsisting between the c ‘inpany and the Indians. If the tie at present in force were severed rudely he believed that the territory would he valueless to this country. He thought that the pledge of the Colonial Secretary that a colony should be established in the district of the Red River, in the event of the fai!ure of Canada doing so, a rash one. The best mode of leading to such a settlement would be by continuing, under ce.rtain modifications, the powers of the Hudson's Bay Company. Mr. C. FITZ WILLIAM maintained that the Hudson's Bay Company had been hardly dealt with. 17, was not for people in this country to say what lands khyuld be colonised. Mr: WYLD thought that the compromise proposed by the Government, if fairly carried out, would be ac c,ptab:e to the Canadians and to the people of this country. Mr. J. D. FITZ GERALD said that the settlement cf the legal rights of the company lay at the very thresh 1.. old of the question. The hon. and learned member for Sheffield and the noble lord the member for London de sired to act in a spirit f ju,tice and liberality towards the Hudson's Bay Company, but before the measure el jui-rice could be meted cut the rights of the company Inuit be determined. Re hoped the Government would put this branch of the question in train fcr decision. Mr. ROEBUCK, in reply, said he thought the inte rest the sot j had created a sufficient justification for having brought it forward ; but he woul.l not divide the house on his proposition, as ho should be averse to be thought in antagonism with the Colonial Secretary, whose opinions, if not entirely c ;incident with hie own, were generally in harmony with them. The honourable and learned gentleman then replied specificali ) to the honourable rnctub, r for Kidderznin,ter s who had led the attack agai, st the resolutions. He denied the imminence cf the danger of col lision with America, which the honourable member had shadowed out as arising from the necessity of going through a portion of America to the Red River. The fact was that the set-lentent could be reached by British waters. The honourable and learned member then re pli,d to the remarks of Mr. Labauchere, contending that whi e civilisation was better than red civilisa. ion, and that the question was whetlitr we should by legislation ace lerate or retard its advane, meat. Tne motion was then withdrawn. THE RUSSIAN WAR AND BRITISH PROPERTY. Mr. CRAWFORD benel to move, " That an humble address be present-A to her Majesty, praying that she Hill be graciously pleased to appoint a Royal Coln mission to inquire into the complaints made by cer t a i n of her stf jects of the destruction of their property by her Majesty's forces at Illeaorg„ in the Gulf of Bothnia, during the recent war with the Emperor of Russia, as more paiticulady set forth in memorials addressed by :rlessrs. Mathieeon and Ritter and I‘Lessrs. Henry Dresser aed Co., to the Lords Ci.mmissioners of the Treasury." Premising. that the matter involved not oil.; the intreFes of individuals, but the fair fame of this coun'ey as a belligerent, he proceeded to state the cir cumstances of one of the cases, in which a quantity of timber, only calculated for building purposes, and net therefore contraband of war, and which was private and partly British property, had been destroyed in 1854 by Admiral Plurnridge. Ho characterised the transaction as wanton and barbarous, without the slightest justifica tion, and in the teeth of the declared policy of cur Government and of a proclama'ien issued by Admiral Plornridge himself, the p'ace being quite defenceless. Mr. ADAMS seconded the motion, He expressed his regret that the Government had expressed its inten tion of opposing toe motion, and he thought that they had arrived at that conclusion without knowing the real facts of the case. Sir J. PAKINGTON hoped to satisfy the house that there were two aides to the question. The G ,vernment, he said, might have rested their opposition to the motion on the ground that repeated applications have been made upon the sulj , ct and rejected. The Government bad referred the question to the law officers of the Crown, who had given a decided opinion against the claim for compensation. He denied that the timber, which had been destroyed along with a large quantity of pitch and tar by Admiral Plurnridge, was of a private na!ure ; it was c )ntiaband of war, the timbi r being fit for the con.. B:ruction of veEsels, and no proof had been offered to the Admiral that any part cf the property belonged to British tn&,rehant.,. Mr. M. GIBSON said he did not mean to argue that these parties had a legal title to indemnity, bur, be con tended that they had a moral, just, and equitable claim upon the British Government for the loss. It; was well known that the affair was a mi.take. Sir C. NAPIER said that Admiral Plumridge had been perfectly right in the service ho performed. It had been stated upon authority that 12 gunboats bad been built at Uleaborg, and ho thought it was unfair that this matter should be brought before the house four years after the occurrence. Mr. NV EGUELIN observed, that the question turned upon this point—whether the articles were or were not contraband of war, and all Mr. Crawford asked was a commission to inquire into the circumstances of the destruction of the property, and of what it consisted. Tue SOLICITOR GENERAL remarked, that no claim had been ma le is either of the cases till 185 d, and in one ca, , e not till the present year ; and he asked whether it was right to listen to applications for corn- pensation go long after the transaction, and when it was so d.fficult to arrive at the truth. He disputed the claims, however, upon their merits, maintaining that the articles destroyed w ere contraband of war. Mr. CLAY avowed that he advised the delay of the ellims wad after the terroinatioriot the war. Th , inn ion was suppoittd by Mr. MALINS and Mr. PRIG Mr. CRA.WFO D rcplie(l. Ividei, and the numbers were— F. r the motion 65 ._Fain-t 105 AN)rity -40 rile hensthe:i pr,:cee,.led to the orders of the day. CONSOLIDXTED FUND (IPPROPIZIATION) BILL. On the mrtion that this bill be read a second time, Sir H. WILLOUGHBY calid attention to a pray, ice which had prdvsiied of applying portions of a vote which ha•! been given kr a particular purpose to a tota,'ly dif ftrent purpose. - He thertfore submitted that FUCiI au appropriation shbuld be made by a distinct vu e, so that the authority of this house over the l üblic money should be strictly maintained. (I-fear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER raid when they went into sorornitLe he would chow that ti e ben; gentleman bad very much mistaken the practice which had prevailed on the subject to which he had alluded. The bill was then read a second time. CLERK OF PETTY SESSIONS (IRELAND) BILL. This bill passed through committee. THE GOVERNMENT OF NEW CALEDONIA. BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. DETACHED PARTS OF COUNTIES BILL. This bill passed through committee. CHELSEA BRIDGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL The order fur the third reading was discharged, and the bill was ordered to be recommitted. Mr. H INGRAM moved that the tAI be not charged on Christmas-day. This motion was agreed to amid loud chem. JEWS BILL. On the order of the day for reading this bill a third time, Mr. NEWDEGATE moved that the debate be ad journed, which was negatived. The debate was ultimately adjourned till this day. THE MILITIA (SERVICE ABROAD) BILL. This bill was read a second time. The Ma►riages (Moscow, Tahiti, &c.) Bill passed through committee. ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION BILL This bill was read a second time. The Law of False Pretences Amendment Bill was read a third time and passed, and the house adjourned at a quarter past two o'clock. RAILWAY COLLMION. Another fearful railway accid( nt has occurred near Huddersfield, attended with injury to upwards of 20 persons, but happily with no loss of life. It cannot be said, however, that all the sufferers are yet out of danger. The particulars of the unfortu nate affair are as follow:—The place where the col lision occurred is the Longwood station, on the London and North-Western Railway, about two miles from Huddersfield. The collision, which oc curred on Monday afternoon, was between a pas senger train from Leeds and Huddersfield (on its way to Manchester) and a coal train. The passenger train arrived at Huddersfield from Leeds at 1.38 p.m., being eight minutes past its time, and was duly despatched for Manchester. A coal train had previou ly been sent on the same line. While some loaded waggons were being shunted at the Lang wood station the distance signal was put on by the potter at the station in order to warn the passen ger train of the obstruction. Some of the coal wag gons had been shunted on the siding next the down line, and George Aspinall, the pointsman and gate keeper of the crossing, which is about 150 yards from the Longwood station, had just crossed the line and turned the points for the engine of the coal train, which had shu n t e d t h e waggons, to re er,ss and take the remaining waggons towards Manchester. The engine had passed the points and gone up the line a short distance, when the passen ger train from Huddersfield came up at such a speed hat it was evident the signal had been disregarded. It ran into the van of the coal train, smashing the van and one of the coal waggons to pieces, . in juring another, and doing great injury to the eitei b ne of the passeng er t ra i n, the chimney being broken off and the buffers splintered. The passen ger train consisted of the following carriages : rhe engine and van, a second-class carriage, first ditto, and three third ditto. The first and second class carriages were comparatively uninjured, but the three thirds were considerably damaged by the cellision, nearly the whole of the divisions forming the compartments being forced out. The force of t!:e collision was such that the passengers were hrown against each other and the sides and ends f the carriages with such force as to inflict upon them in toy severe contusions and wounds. The scene presentei was one of a very fearful character, and it is little less than miraculous that no person was killed. The passengers —men, women, and children—were crushed together, being thrown from their seats and the seats forced out of their places. As soon as possible after the acciden medical and other assistance was rendered o the sufferers. All but three of the passengers, after being duly attended to by the medical men, left in the course of the afternoon for their respec tive homes, or proceeded on their journey. The three who were not able to go home were the fol 'owing :—Mrs. Mary Dransfild, aged 29, the wife of William Dransfield, a carter in the employ of IVlessrs. Ogden, of Oldham. She bad been vi-iting her pareats at Kirkheaton, near Hud dersfield, and was returning home with her child to Lees, near Oldham. • The child was fortunately uninjured. Mrs. Dransfield suffers from bruises ou the shoulder and knee, and a cut on the cheek ; Pile is aleo much shaken. She was removed to the Huddersfield Infirmary. Mr. G. V. Ryder, resident manager at Man chester of the Royal Insurance Company—general. shock to the system, internal laceration of the muscles ef the neck and side, internal injury of the head fared. Thomas Porter, about 30 years of age, it confectioner, New-street, Huddersfield, very serious internal injuries. This is a precarious case. The latter two persons are at the Railway Hotel, Longwood. The guard states that although he was in the van next the engine he did not noice that the distance signal was up at Longwood Station. S'J far as can be ascertained the blame of the accident rests with the driver of the passenger train, John Luty, who ought to have noticed, on emerging from the deep cutting at Paddock, that the distance signal of the Longwood Station was up. If he bad done this he would have bad suffi cient time to etop the train, and to have prevented the collision. He states, as his reason for not noticing that the signal was on, that he and the , ker were locking at the buffer boxes of his engine which were making an unusual noise at the time. Although he has been in the company's service • ~zany years he has only been engine -driver about 9 wonths, and is reputed to be a very steady and ;e:utious man. The line was cleared for traffic and now rails were laid in about an hour and a half. Country Markets. LIVERPOOL, YIILY 20. Though we had a poor attendance of town and country millers at our corn exchange this morning, and transac tions were to a very moderate extent. Prices, in no instance, were considered worse than Friday last, but on the week, however, a decline must. be quoted of about 3d per bushel ou th e common kinds of American and Danish wheats, and i s p er sac k and barrel on flour. Fe e di ng de sc.iiitona of Indi an corn i n goo d demand, at full pri ces . Oats, barley, beans, and peas quite sustained their recen value. LEEDS, JULY 20. Tha weather is now very tine, and there is a liberal sup ply of wheat this morning. The higher qualities are held at Friday's rates ; secondary sorts sell slowly at is decline. Mans considered as clearer. Other articles as before. AVERAGE PRICES. Wheat 1790 quarters, at 46s lid Barley 0at5........ PP Peas Beans NORWICH CATTLE —Jo:4Y 17. There was an average show of Scots, short-horns, De vons, and Irish exhibited to-day, with another drove of Dutch cattle, a few of which were pretty good, others very inferior. Trade active. Fat beasts, 7s Od to 7s 61; prime, 83 Od per stone; sheep 38s to 1.2 s per head ; prime lots, 42s ; lambs, 28s to 32s ; good store pigs, 163 to 20s. Fat pork, 5s to 5s 6d per stone of 141bs; tracts dull. PROVISION MARKET. Beef, per lb Hutton, per 113 6A to 7 r id I Eggs, per 16, Os 01 to is 0.1 Lamb, do., ...Os 8d to Os 9d 1 Hens, p pair Os Od to Os 01 Veal, per 1b...... 6d to Os 7d Chickens,do.4B Od to 5e 61 Pork, per 1b...0s sid to 6,3 d Ducks, do., 4s 6d to 6e. 0.1 Salmon, per lb Os Od 1 Ducklings,do2 s Od t o 2 s 61 Grouse, per brace Os to Os Turkeys, each Os Od to Oi 01 Tallow, p stone, Os to — s 01 P otatoes, per qr., ....3d to 4d BIRTHS. CURETON—On the 20th inst., at 13, Dean'e•yard, West minster, Mrs. Cureton, of a daughter. EDEN—On the Ith inst., at Ham, the wife of Frederick Morton Eden, Esq., of a daughter. C LAMER —On the 17th inst., at Blackheath, the wife of James Glaisher, Esq., F.R.S., of a son. PARK—On the 19th inst., at 32, Kensington•park•gardens, the wife of James Dickson Park, Esq., of a daughter. MARRIAGES, TACEY—GREEN--On the 13th i❑st., at St. Paul's Church, 11 4mmerstuith, Mr. Wm. George Tacey, of Brighton, Jessy, only daughter of the late Saml. Fred. Green, E•ci , solicitor, of Lincoln's-inn-fields. WA LDRON—VALE—On the 15th inst., at St. James's Church, Longton, Staffordshire, the Rev. George 11. Waldron, of Salisbury House, Potter's-bar, Middlesex, to Rebecca, daughter of the Rev. Dr. Vale, rector of Longton. DEATHS. BURTON—On the 15th inst., at 4, Lansdowne-terrale, Hackney, Thointon Burton, Esq., late of Guernsey, aged 39. BEAUMONT —On the 15th inst,, at Whitchurcb, Oxon, ald formerly of Austinfriars, London, Mr. Benjamin Thanment, aged 45. CARUINGTOA—On the 13th inst., Richard Carrington, Esq.. of Sydenharn-hill, Kent, and of the Royal Brew ery, Brentford, Middlesex. LEWIS—On the 19th inst., at 47, Westbourne-terrace, the Rev. W. Lewis, for 23 years vicar of Abbot's Langley, Hertp, aged 62. PAIIK--On the 20th inst., at 14 Ashley-pface, Westmin sCt.,r, A 1 ,17, widow of the late Hon. Vice• Chancellor Sir ;awes Parker, ago.] 59. Loh - pox: Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at T/ thin Office, No 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the_connty - of Mid Hosea, Wednesday, July 21, 1858, R. l 10n3 by every event Admission at the Roy Cramer, Be R in o'clock, I TIN'S RAI Stalls (nu ttnreserved Ben, Pal Acre. T. M MEN from Memo: Loa," corn/ Evening, ill Weekly. Stalls (no 'Unreserved Old Bond-st 11 0 YA DA' Al fresco, •nn from h N.B.' THI the . ,Bnlcher Works and I rEIRE r TAJNIfE T r areas —Rat eoramenelng The Patrol fttriPany vta nRIc Pletee TOtri , Co and Joe B ra Lave been. %) Fr°llc hing - de and. Ev Eln lion day, An miden. • d i 'England v inte Pded t ' ot —o Yal.tibr ar ga gent i Nearly all 3 finltreis, time!. are You; rka ftif o9Pde do, Yai Lllori pi TT PIIYS portant subjei tnarliet), at F . 11-111 R il Tti C A A G 1 ♦ r I E I , receipt of twel A LIIA/ 4 .A. (The fond;l i a ir 1 1 I l' h °. i v tl l aln g l i i : r d nt ' y j le i n 1 1 3 4 : e a I'N .n C r , .or a shortgett "IC US COIF SPLENDID witY t ntertaizu r ,,,. Pitt, jg . . . a l ' No fees for r boo] MESS' IT °' 114;1M No, I .."12 . Ilk for No• 12 0- fo li. r ~:".2 4 10ie th ' , mato 1 _ O:144 cont: e:Mi: l i en win ' I COLL h„ e Thb hles:l pre te w es, viz Kno addre el "rli ! Il l of the sa . "" --- ' -- " - --1.4-- METI Illie . 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