The Sun. — London, England, 1860-03-17 00:00:00

~~~~ LONDON; n SATURDAYEVENING, MARCH 17, 1860. present, I think I ought to state to the house that there was delivered to me yesterday a despatch from M. Thouvenel to Count Persigny, in which the writer asks that the case of the annexation of Savoy might be laid before her Majesty's Government for their consideration. The despatch is a very temperate one. It is clear altogether of natural boun daries. It states the case as one of special interests, arising from special circumstances, namely, that the position of Italy is changed, that the position of France is thereby changed, and that therefore this is a special case that de serves special consideration. But although it is stated in the despatch that this question is submitted to the wisdom and equity of Europe, yet I must say, taking the whole of the despatch together, and considering the term used, that it is necessary for France to have a secure frontier, I think I should hardly be justified in saying that the powers of Europe are consulted, and that by their verdict the French empire will be guided. I have not yet laid this despatch on the table, but I am stating all that I know on the sub ject. We shall consider maturely what answer shall be given to this despatch ; but the whole despatch, and espe cially that part of it which relates to the question that my hon. friend the member for Tamworth takes such interest in—the question of Faucigny and Chablais—is one of so much gravity and importance that, without saying more about it at present, I will nevertheless add that it requires most grave considerations. I shall lose no time in laying the despatch and the answer to it on the table. (Hear, hear.) Mr. HALIBURTON attempted to say a few words in explanation, but the Speaker would not permit him to ad dress the house a second time. SALE OF GAS ACT. Mr. H. E. SHERIDAN asked the President of the Board of Trade, whether the Lords of the 'Treasury were now prepared to carry out the provisions of the Sale of Gas Act, and to have the " gas holder" at once deposited at the Exchequer. office. Mr. M. GIB SON said that a great deal of discussion had taken place with regard to the difficulties which arose from the defects of the law. He had come to the conclusion that the act did not require immediate amendment, and that it might be carried into execution. (Hear.) He had communi cated that opinion to the Betted of Trade, but otherwise he could not interfere, the act irVing to the Board of Ti ado no authority whatever. (Hear.) BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. Mr. BOUVEILIE said that what occurred that evening induced him again to enter his protest at t he mode in which their proceedings were conducted, and which were in direct and gross violation of the standing orders. They had now wasted bet Ween four and five Lours of 'valuable time in talk ing upon a great variety of subjects, upon which, however important some of them might be, they could come to no conclusion. According to the standing orders, the orders of the day were to take precedence of all other business ; but he had taken the trouble of making a note of the questions that had been raised upon the question for adjourning tilt Monday that night, and the time they occupied. In the first place the hon. member for Finsbury bad taken them into Kent and raised a ten minutes' discussion on the Kent coroners. That seeely was not a very urgent subject ; the next was a 25 minutes' discussion on the Nawab of the Carnatic, raised, he was sorry to say, by a Scotch mem ber, because they very seldom impeded businese. • Next the hon. baronet (Sir F. Smith) had raised a 10 minutes' debate upon the college at Sandhurst, arid, after that, came three or four minor Indian questions, followed by a great debate of 45 minutes on the removal of Irish poor —tin important question, but one that ought to have been discussed on a substantive motion, and not treated in this cursory and inconclusive style. His hon. friend the member for Pontefract (Mr. Milnes), who was a great sinner in this respect, had occupied 15 minutes on a subject which did not come properly under the notice of the house at all, and he was followed by the member for Launceston (Mr. Haliburton), who carried them oft to the Island of St. Pierre ; and lastly, they had the dissuasion on Savoy, and the important statement of the noble lord, the discussion having taken up another half-hour. Now, that statement would have been much better made to a full house at five o'clock than in a thin one, when the Members were away at dinner. In fact, the way in which they acted was damaging them in the estimation of the country as business men. (Hear, hear.) Looking back at their course that night, it reminded him of nothing so much as the song with • which Mr. Albert Smith wound up his entertainment, and rattled over the topics of the day. (Laughter, and " Sing it.") , He could not renew this session the motion on which he had been defeated, but he gave notice that the week after next he would move that the motion for adjournment be made on Thursdays instead of Fridays,'and then it would remain to be seen whether members would curtail their own privi leges after having taken the chance of the ballot by bring ing forward such questions. (Hear.) The motion for adjournment was then agreed to. CHINA. On the motion of going into committee of supply, Sir DE L. EVANS rose to move Fs amendment. The gallant general observed that when he had mentioned the subject on a former occasion the noble lord said he was ex pecting papers from Mr. Br uce. Those papers had been re ceived and published, and it appeared from them that Mr. Bruce was doing nothing, because he was looking for des patches from the noble lord. Vast preparations were being made for an expedition to China, an expedition to pay for which the sum mentioned by the Chancellor of the Exchequer would go but a little way. The Secretary for War slid not, when the subject was before the house, state the exact amount of the force which was going from India, but he understood him not to admit that his (the gallant general's) estimate of it was correct. He believed that a large quantity of artillery had been sent to China, and a large battery and several thousand marines, and altogether there could not be less than 40,000 men. It was possible that the Government had sent out orders that this force should be diminished. It was no doubt of portentous • magnitude, and he could not see that it would be required. (Hear, hear.) It created an opinion that some serious aggression or conquest was en tertained. That it would involve a great expense was clear, and perhaps next year they would have to submit to an in creased income tax. (Hear,) The hon. and gallant member then referred to a despatch of Lord Elgin's, in reference to the payment of all expenses by the Chinese Govermpent. The noble lord said that to fix any sum as an indemnity would be a difficult thing to do; and he came to the con clusion, upon certain grounds apart from those of morality and justice, that it would not be wise to drive the Chi nese Government to despair by demanding a large sum, and it might, too, compel them to resort to measures of re sistance. The noble lord adopted the view that theie Would not be much chance of obtaining an indemnity. The house would recollect that the troops were proceeding from a dis tance of 5,000 voiles, and the stores were being sent 15,000 miles, All these matters would cost an enormous sum of money. (Hear.) The first object which he had in N:ew was to induce the Government to select some diplomatist who should take charge of this great force now ordered for China. So long as the matter was in doubt he did not press it en the Government, but within the laSt few days they had been formally told that Lord Elgin was to be sent to Chink, and that information had put an end to all anxiety on the subject—because, no doubt, a very considerable con fidence was placed in the judgment of that noble lord; and as the great object was to obtain a ratification of the treaty of commerce which he had concluded, he would be the fittest person for the duty to be performed. To be sure, it was to be regretted that Lord Elgin did not remain at his post longer on the former occasion, and complete the work which he had begun. (Hear.) It appeared that these great forces of the fleet and army would b e under the direction of two plenipotentiarie s , two admirals, and' tw3 generals, and if they get on harmoniously it would much surprise him, and they would be as happy a family as they saw in other places sometimes. (Laughter.) However, they were all men of g feat ability, and it ww to be hoped they would not well together. It was desirable that the house should know whether the Government of this country had ar ranged with the Government of France how far these ope rations were to extend. (Hear.) It was said the army was to be disembarked at the mouth of theTeiho, and march thence to Pekin. Now, one-fourth of the army to be employed would overthrow an y Chinese force that "could oppose it, and therefore,, sending such a large army to P e ki n might bi detrimental to the stability of the Chinese Government. This was to be an inland war, whereas, on the former occa sions, they were naval attacks. He did not say that some decided military demonstration might not be necessary to restore the proper feeling towards this country, and to place matters on a satisfactory footing, but he hoped the spirit of the language in her Majesty's Speech would not be a dead letter, but be acted upon. It should be recollected that in this war there would beno glory to be obtained, and he won dered that the French _Goimrnment should have entered into it, but he supposed it was in consequence of having a large army unemployed. He held out these objections, and he hoped the noble lord would be able to inform the house that a reguldrebnvention or agreement had been entered into with the French Government, and that the matter would not be left to the chance orders of this Government or that general. If there should not be some settled agree ' talent for operations they would perhaps find next year that the expenses of the war had been increased to £8,000,600 or £10,000,000, instead of the sum which would now be asked for. The hon. and gallant member then moved the follow ing amendment instead of the one which, he had placed on - the notice paper :—" That, humbly participating in the wish expressed in her Majesty's Speech on the opening of this session of Parliament, viz.—' That she will be gra tified if the prompt acquiescence of the Emperor of China in the moderate demands which will be made upOn him by the allies shall obviate the necessity for the employment of f or" ;' and that, in the judgment of this house, the mode ration of policy thus indicated on the part of Eer Majesty and that of her ally, the Emperor of the French, will best anconattbute to diminish expenditure, avert complications, promote commerce, the interests of justice, and the establishment of peace." Lord J. RUSSELLsaid that with respect to the ques. Hon of his hon. and gallant friend relative to the question which he had last ra i sed as tothe military operations in China, it would obviously be Y un w ise of the Govern ment to state the exact giv en instructvioenra country. to the nava l an d m ilitary commanders sent f rom this u w The t house agree with him that it would be unwise o make those instructions so extremely strict that ofileoeurns dis tance of 15,000 miles should find themselves bound in any, and all circumstances ; (Hear, hear.) With his ' hon. and gallant friend he hoped it would not be necessary for our troops to march to Pekin, but ho thought the Go vernment would be departing from their duty if they gave - special instructions that there should be no march on that city. "With regard to the terms of the negotiations, those should not be settled, on account of the circumstances which had lately occurred. Instructions had been drawly up for Lord Elgin, in'which the French Government concurred generally; but•ther6 were some points upon which thfy wished for further explanations, and her Majesty's Go- vernment considered the better way would be that Lord Elgin: who was well tit quainted with Baron Gros, with whom he had acted on the former Chinese mission in terms of the greatest cordiality, should go to Paris and consult with M. Thouvenel and Baron Gros on those points in re spect of which explanations were required. One of the questions to be settled was whether Lord Elgin and Baron Gros should have the supreme command of the naval and military operations. That seemed to be a right principle, but it must be observed that the :naval and military com manders might find themselves in such a position as that it would be impossible for them to stop with safety to the troops and the ships. (Hear, hear.) These were points which had not yet been settled. As regarded the necessity for a display of military force, seeing that 400 or 500 men had been killed and wounded by an ambuscade—(no, no) — he thought that the lives and property of Englishmen in that country would not be safe if in some way or another the Chinese were not required to make reparation for that result. (Hear, hear.) Some persons said the passage up the river was without notice to .the Chinese, but Mr. Bruce showed that that was not so, but that he had required to be allowed to go up with the skips, and that he should be re • ceived in an honourable manner. There was no positive re fusal, but the commissioner at Shanghai desired to send first to Pekin, and the time he required for the purpose was un reasonably long. When Mr. Bruce had arrived at the Peiho he found no Chinese authorities there, and the people were acting without orders ; and, whether Mr. Bruce was acting rightly or wrongly, he and Admiral Hope went up to the mouth of the river without any notice that their passage would be obstructed. That having happened, and a great loss of life and property having occurred, there must be some reparation. (Hear, hear.) The demands made were ex ceedingly moderate. The treaty had been concluded, and only required to be ratified. The Government, also de manded that some apology should be made for the outrage which had been committed. That being done, it was pro posed that the British Minister should go up to Pekin and obtain the ratification of the treaty. With regard to the whole matter no one could regret it more than him. self. There was no question of boundary to be settled, or other matters of that kind. All that they sought for was trade with the Chinese; and, in order that that might be carried on, the Government required security for the lives and property of their people. He would state that in late years trade had enormously increased at Shanghai and at other places, and that a large number of persons were engaged in it, and of course they were liable to disputes. It was therefore desirable that our Minister should have the priv s ilege of resorting to the chief powers and places in China, and not be confined to Canton and to intercourse with the Governor there. He thought the British Minister should have the option of residing at Pekin or anywhere else where interests of trade required it. It might be that he should reside at Shanghai, and go occa sionally to Pekin; but better arrangements than the pre sent were eminently desirable. (Hear.) Lord Elgin would soon return, and would then proceed on his mission. His hon. and gallant friend seemed to think that no better choice could have been made, and that no man was more anxious to maintain peaceful relations with the Chinese. His lord - ship had acquired en esteem for that people, and a strong wish for their welfare ; ma he (Lord J. Russell) believed that both he and Baron 'Gros were animated by the most pacific sentiments, and that better could not have been done than to send them out as plenipotentiaries. He believed he had now troubled the house with all that was necessary to be said on the subject. , Sir J. ELPHINSTONE regretted that, whilst sketching out the proposed naval end ro'litary operations, the noble lord had not also given them some comprehensive plan for the settlement of our fuLare relations with China. With the permission of house he (Sir J. Elphinstone) should give it slight sketch of our policy and position in China down to the present time. In 1832 the charter of the East India Company came to an end, and there was consequently a total change in our relations with the Chinese Govern ment. Instead of a monopoly opposed to a monopoly, car ried on by a disciplined body, acting up to all treaty stipu. lations, the trade was thrown open to traders of any sort, who, kelieving China to be an Eldorado, flocked to that country from all parts. Our Government sent out a noble man to superintend that trade, but, instead of being accre dited as a plenipotentiary and supported by a sufficient force, Lord Napier landed in the dead of the night, end was only recognised by the chief of the police. He was conse quently subjected to serious insults, and the trade was stopped. The results that followed led to the first Chinese war, and then Sir H. Pottinger was sent out to settle the question. He concluded the treaty with Nankin after a series of hostilities which brought the Chinese Government into great discredit with the people, and his treaty was designated the seven years' settlement. Matters dragged on under this treaty for years, during which British subjects were persecuted with every indignity. The affair of the Arrow was only the culminating; point of a serious difficulty. He thought her Majesty's government had been right in that affair, and had he been then in Parliament he should have given them his support. (Hear, hear.) The second Chinese war resulted in the mission of Lord Elgin, into which he would not go further than to say that in his judgment the whole 'operations were conducted not only with singular ability by the gallant admiral and the pleni potentiary, but that everything that up to that time was done was well done. (Hear, hear.) They had then the treaty which was now before them, which although a great improvement on that of Sir H. Pottinger did not embrace a sufficiently comprehensive view of Chinese poicy. He hoped that Lord Elgin might be able to effect his object without the effusion of blood, and that his lordship would be able to effect everything he had undertaken. But he en tirely differed from what the noble lord had shadowed forth in his remarks, and he thought it would be a most fatal mis take if our troops advanced on Pekin. These was no doubt but that the insult which had been passed upon us required retribution, but he thought that, in the first instance, it ought to be put, to the Chinese to give an ample apology and compensation for the lives and property that had been destroyed. His plan would be to fall back on the city o f Nankin. That was the strategic point from which the em pire could be paralysed. The party that held that city had so complete a control of the producing districts that it would be perfectly impossible for the Emperor to collect his revenue so long as that city was held by a foreign Power. The empire of China was intersected by two of the largest rivers in the world—the, Yang-tse-Kiang and the Hoanho—the first rising in the mountains of Thibet, and the other more to the north, and both falling into the sea. These two rivers watered all the great producing districts of China, and any force occupying Nankin not only commanded the Grand Canal, but commanded also the mouths of the rivers. Having reduced the Taku forts and the defences of the Pei. ho, the army should fall back on Nankin, which should be occupied until the Emperor conceded our demands. If you went on to Pekin you must start in the middle of April, and would arrive at the mouth of the Pciiho, when, with 40,000 men, you would reduce the fat is. By the time you had done this August would have arrived; and it was the universal opinion of every gentleman who knew anything about China that the Emperor would retire into Mantchou ria, leaving your army in an immense city, and surrounded by a vast and turbulent population. The September winds swept over the steppe from the Amor, and the thermome ter would probably fall from 30 to 40 degrees below zero. Sheepskin-clad Tartars in myriads would harass the ,in vaders, thus placed 600 miles from their base of operations. Whence would they get their supplies. He would not im pose upon any officer the duty of placing the Queen's troops in such a position. (Hear, hear.) They had heard of the disaster of Cabul—let them not tempt the repetition of such a terrible calamity. (Hear, hear.) There was no doubt but that the army they were sending out would go through any Asiatic army that could be, collected; but the difficulty would be in getting the latter together to be slaughtered. They must remember that the Chinese were the mosfsublie People in the world, and that they would exhaust all pos sible means to prevent our getting to Pekin, and afterwards to harass us when our troops had taken possession of that city. His Policy, then, would be to take possession of Nan kin with a force of gun-boats, and to keep the rivers clear, as by so doin g t h e producing districts would be brought under our command, and the war to a speedy and satisfae - tory conclusion. The Chinese rebellion was not a matter of yesterday. In 1820 the rebels were in force in Kwance•tung, and the Americans were employed to resist them. He re membered an Americdn of the name of Magee, who kept a public-house, and who was made a Mandarin of the Pea cock's Feather for his services. (. laugh.) Then, in 1849, a movement took place which was a sort of semi -Christian movement. There was also the movement:of the triad socie ties, the members of which became pirates. Our policy throughout these events had been of a most vacillatin g character, sometimes assisting the imperialists, and some times the rebels. In 1855 the rebels came down to Shanghai and were supplied with ammunition by the mercantile com munity. Three hundred blue jackets and marines defended proceeded. the European community, and Captain O'Callaghan, who commanded them, had never been sufficien ye wded,s deed-. The de spatches, ant .c es, member des ex. i h p e t r i here e readof this extracts stat eoffr affairs, o from Lord an d E p lg o n He knew that the rebel s h a d never been able to create any sort of Government themselves, so that our only chance of maintaining any sort of regularity at all was 'to support th Imperial Govermhent as we found it. The noble lord at the head of foreign affairs pointed out in his statement that evening the eventuality, in case of other negotiations fail- ing, that wemust resort to some sort of indemnification from the Chinese, but he (Sir J. Elphinstone) held that we could not Secure any indemnification unless we held the export duties in our own hands, and Lord Elgin took the same view of tho matterin a despatch to Lord Malmesbury in July 1858 He (Sir J. Elphinstone) thought it would be unwise to drive the Chinese to resistance and despair, which would only in- crease the unpopurarity of such a measure, and would create sympathy with the rfaels, by insisting upon the settleinent of pecuniary claims which, under no circumstances, ► could be reasonably satisfied. That, he thought, settled the question of indemnity. Lord J. RUSSELL —The claim, then, was £1,200,000. Sir J. ELPHINSTONE thought that 1,200,000 dollars would be as difficult to obtain from the Chinese as £1,200,000. Lord J. RUSSELL —That was an indemnity for the mer chants and the Government under the treaty of Tien-tsin. Sir J. ELPIIINST6NE—Yes, but the noble lord asked an indemnity for the great armaments we were now senda ing out. But they had the Persian expedition to guide them in their calculation s as to the probable amount of the coat of that expedition to China. Ti}e Persian expedition lasted only four or five months, and the cost was £2,500,000, which the people of England were called upon to pay. How much of that amount was laid upon that willing horse, our Indian empire, he could not say, but that amount was ex pended upon a small force going a distance of 3,500 miles. Now the distance from Bombay to the mouth of the Peiho was upwards of 5,000 miles, from Calcutta 4,700 miles, and from Madras 4,800 miles. The price of coal for the expe dition to the Peiho would be £3 per ton ; the horses, artil lery, and attendants upon an army of 10,000 or 12,000 men going such a distance must be much larger than what was required forthe Persian expedition, and the basis of opera tions being India the army must carry the greater part of its supplies with it. But, supposing the whole thing to be done in a few weeks—though he did not expect it would take less than 12 months—before the expedition could be at an end, and .supposing it would not be necessary to leave any force in the country to make the provisions of the treaty be carried out, in that case his belief was that they would not get out of this Chinese war at a less cost than £10,000,000. (Hear, hear.) And yet they had a deficiency of £6,000,000, or £7,000,000, or £8,000,000, of which no account was taken, but which must eventually come out of their pockets. (Hear, hear.) That was the reason why he had steadily opposed the mea sures taken by the present Government. (Hear, hear.) He could not conceive what brought them into this Chinese matter at all. (Hear, hear.) Sixteen years ago, when he went backwards and forwards to China, the whole of the French trade to that country was represented by one ship, laden with claret, which took back toys and a little tea. He believed that trade had a little increased now, but he was sorry to say, in a most unfavourable direction. Now, the French ships were carrying coolies: That was a sys tem of slavery which had been growing up and would come to a very insupportable pitch, and would increase the dis like of Europeans, and especially of the English, because they could not draw a distinction between us and other na tions which had no great trade with China ; the odium would all be laid upon the English, who were the only Europeans known to the Chinese. That coolie question must be dealt with, and other . questions also which were eating up the vitals of every Chinese treaty until we took the matter up as we ought to do, and settled it, now that we lied an opportunity of placing our trade with China in a position of security, such as became a great Christian na tion. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT said when the speech with which her Ma jesty opened the present session of Parliament first met his eyes he was glad to observe the paragraph which referred to these unhappy affairs in China, inasmuch as it indicated a disposition on the part of the government to avoid re opening a war with China. The resolution moved by his hon. friend near him (Sir De L. Evans) was in effect 'call ing upon the house to support the policy indicated in her Majesty's speech, which was such as he was ewe every, member of that house would be willing to vote for, and which the Government would be willing to accept. Ano ther object of that resolution was to enable the noble lord the Foreign Secretary to make that statement which he gave the house to understand a few nights ago be in tended to make upon these Chinese affairs. He (Mr. Bright) confessed he was a good deal disappointed with that statement. The noble lord told the house scarcely anything, except that the amount of force being sent to China was only one-half as much as was stated by his hon. friend. It appeared to him that, on occa sions of that sort, when the country might be dragged into a bloody and costly contest, it was the duty of the Foreign Minister to be a little more explicit. (Hear, hear.) They had the case of the Persian war before them, to which the hon. baronet opposite had alluded, which cost this country upwards of £2,000,000 of nioney, about which they had heard nothing—when it began, or how it was carried on —except that they had to pay the enormous amount which it cost the country. (Hear, hear.) They were, now appa rently involved in another transaction of a similar character, Which he thought the most robust conscience in that house would decline to accept as an honourable cause. (Hear, hear.) Let them for a moment trace the progress of these transactions. He would not go back to the original China war, which was as bad a thing as could be, but only to the war commenced by the indiscretion—to use no harsher term—of the English Plenipotentiary, Sir J. Bowring. That war was based upon a fraud, and that which the House of Commons condemned as a positive lie. And , though, when there was a dissolution, a large majority was retur aed to support the Minister then in office, no Minister ever dared to reverse that decision, and he believed there scarcely existed now a doubt throughout the country as to the folly and guilt of that transaction. (Hear, hear.) Well, that war came to an end, and a treaty was made under the auspices of a noble lord now in the Cabinet. He thought there was a grievous error in the formation of that treaty. There seemed to be a constant wish to introduce something into those treaties which should have the effect of special aggravation to the Chinese, but which no man could ever prove to be of the smallest use to the trade or the honour of this country. For instance, one thing was insisted upon which had never before been heard of in China—that an English Minister should reside in Pekin. Now, it was a question still open whether it was worth while keeping a Minister at any court in the world--(a laugh)—and whether it would not be better to have all our ambassadors with drawn; and, when we had special questions to arrange with foreign Courts, to send out apecial ambassadors for the pur pose. But however that may be, the question must be de cided by the European Powers. That man must have a wonderful notion of English policy and English Commerce who thought that anything could be gained by sending some veteran diplomatist to reside at Pekin, which was a place Where, of all others, he would probably be least com fortable, and certainly least wetted. (Hear, hear.) That was a clause insisted on in the treaty with the especial ob ject of humiliating the Chinese and giving a proof of the absolute supremacy and triumph which the arms of Eng land had obtained over the feeble Government of China. Now they came from the question of the treaty to the ques tion of its ratification. For his own part he could never un derstand why a nobleman .who had arranged this treaty should not have stayed in China until the whole thing was_ finished. There might, however, have been reasons for Lord Elgin's return, and it might be that the Minister who succeeded him had shown himself as competent as any other man in the subordinate situations he had filled. On this second case he (Mr. Bright) maintained we were just as wrong as we were in the case at Canton nnder Sir J. Bow ring. All the arguments which the noble lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs used in 1857 would be valid against the case he had in some sort apologised for to-night. The noble lord spoke of the treachery that had been exercised against the forces of England, but they had it on the authority of an English officer engaged in that sanguinary and unhappy affair—a gentleman holding the rank of captain, and a near relative of a dignitary of the Church—that there was no treachery whatever, and what was more, that if the Chinese had intended to be treacherous, not one single vessel or one person on board could have survived. (Hear, hear.) The fact was it was not worth our while, as sensible men in volved in the discredit of these transactions, to try to cover up these things by charges of treachery against the Chinese. The real charge was one of utter folly and imbecility on the part of our own Minister, and, notwithstanding all that might be said of the valour 'of our admiral, of great indiscretion on his part. (llear, hear.) He held that pru dence and valour were twins, and together they did great things, but separate they ended in disasters like this—(hear) —and he had no patience in hearing hon. members con stantly praising the valour of commanders of vessels on oc casions of this nature. There could be no doubt that the number sacrificed were sacrificed to the bad arrangements of the admiral and the lolly of our Minister; and that was not his opinion alone, but the opinion of those who had sur vived, and he felt sure of 99 out of every 100 of reflecting men in England who had read through carefully the name tive of these miserable transactions. (Hear, hear.) Up to this point, however, no one could blame the present Go vernment, because the noble lord had only taken office a few weeks when this business occurred at the river Peiho. But he thought the noble lord and his colleagues did not show that judgment which might have been expected of them when they heard the narrative of these transactions. It ap peared to him that no man living could read the despatches and the narratives—whether they came from Chinese papers, correspondents of London newspapers in China, Indian papers, or from private sources—without coming to the con clusion that Mr. Bruce had been guilty of great want of judgment, and that the consequence was a most disastrous failure. But what ought to be done with a man who showed a lack of judgment and failed disastrously ? He did not pretend to say but that many of those present might fail in judgment in many affairs of their lives; but when a Mini ster, placed in a responsible position 15,000 miles away from henee e 'committed an error so grievous as this, and brought about a stake of things so alarming to all the people of this country, t ro h eu e tii,ol first thiag the Government should do should b ni t whomn moreche office nothing gftios responsibility,continueect hy could. ou l a m hbo a up a. et guiltyttoosupply find n o d of sounder : sin s dg place ea judgment b fail uresome i mannand e(; absurdexhibited. wi hi t s h op p i e n o io p n l; through the agency of a Minister who had made a failure in his first ana only trr, nsaction with them, and whos e be , ort g s mind must necessarily greatly would lyirritated by the !allure that had attend e d h is eff be impossible to pick out a single man so entirely unfitted to have the con duct of tlese future negotiations es complications, what ever they might be, as Mr. B ruce, who : i nee despatches, tese tra n theysac lions had been continued as our Minister in China. If h on . g entlemen would only read Mr. B ruce ' would see at once that he was never fit for his office, for he probeeded to commence his negotiations under feelings of most unfair suspicion and distrust. (Hear, hear.) Almost every expression made use of by Mr. Bruce was one which showed how much he was disposed to offend rather than to conciliate those with whom he was about to negotiate. Mr.'Bruce was not fit then, could he be fit now ? If this man was so great that the Prime Minister over 300,000,000 of people was not a sufficient great man for :.Hm to meet with, and if the Government were determined to entrust him with the future negotiati9ns, he (Mr. Bright) should not have the smallest expectation that anysuccessful result would be come to, and he should think that the estimate made by the hon. member for Portsmouth would fall very short of the bill we should have to pay. (Hear.). But•the noble lord the Foreign Secretary, doing tardily what we ought to have done months ago, was proposing to send Lord Elgin out again with the hope of terminating this unhappy state of affairs. He (Mr. Bright) was not able to-say whether Lord Elgin was the most suitable man to go out, but if he could clear himself from any feeling of exaspera tion, then there'certainly was no reason why the noble earl should not be as good a man as any other to send out. Pos sibly the failure of the rieble lord's brother might have this beneficial effect on him—that he might feel anxious by his own conciliatory conduct, and by a wish to close this dismal chapter, to conduct the affair well, and retrieve the misfor tune of his relative. He thought the noble lord the Foreign Secretary in,his instructions shouldnot insist on that point of the treaty which required an English Minister to reside at Pekin. (Hear, hear.) He could see no advantage to this country or to its policy or trade in having such a, resident Minister ; and if we were more powerful than the Chinese —if we could send fleets and armies without stint, and break up a great nation which was in existence centuries before we were heard of, surely it was not natural that we should heap the most supreme insult upon, the governor of those 300,000,000 'of men. (Hear.) Let the noble,lord tell the house what was the use of establishing Mr. Bruce, or hs successor, at Pekin. If the noble lord could show that tie good was something greatly overbalancing the evil, then tie house would consider it. But it seemed to him, to use an expression which had lately become common, " going to war for an idea," and an idea about as stupid as a statesman mild well entertain. (Hear, hear, and l aug ht er .) Th e h on . umber for Portsmouth had advised them not to be led into schat he called this new crime. He (Mr. Bright), as the Muse knew, was not always expressing his distriist of the _Emperor of the French. (A laugh.) He believed he always s?oke as respectfully of the French Emperor or the Aus trian Emperor as of any person he was acquainted with, but tie present case might be one where the objects of another Government were different from the objects of the. British Government. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord at the head cf the Government had told them there was no conven tion with regard to these transactions—no specific agree tient between the two countries. But he (Mr. Bright) thought we might be allowing ourselves to be dragged into a complication in China which might be of immeasurable evil there, and might lead afterwards to serious complica tions and unpleasantness nearer home. The Chancellor of the, Exchequer could not be very happy if he heard the speech of the hon. member for Portsmouth (Sir J. Elphin stone) as to expenses. It appeared to him (Mr. Bright) the country and 'Parliament had become absolutely drunk on this question. (A laugh) Words of truth and soberness, such as he had endeavoured to speak on the question, ,were treated as if he were really talking about something con cerning the people in another planet, and that we had no thing whatever to do with the matter. Hon. gentlemen op posite might charge him with having some special affection for hon. gentlemen on the Government side of the house. He had certainly taken a great interest in everybody who had been powerful on that bench since he had been Parlia • ment, when he found they were pursuing a course which appeased to be jn harmony with the true interests of the country. But when they came to this China question he confessed he thought the Government, although they re ceived it as a legacy from the last Government, were stand ing on ground so slippery, that be should not be the least surprised if next seasion of Parliament, supposing they lived so long as a Government—he certainly hoped they would—(hear, hear)—but he should not be surprised if they found themselves engulphed on this very China question which had once before caused political changes in that house When that discusion took place three years ago he was spending the winter at Rome. and he recollected receiving a letter from his hon. friend the member for Rochdale, written immediately after the division on the China ques tion, in which he said, " Me. Gladstone's speech was a marvel of persuasive eloquence." (Hear, hear.) That was true, for he had heard it confirmed since by scores of per sons who listened to it. (Hear, hear.) But the sight hon. gentleman on that occasion was speaking on behalf of the great principles of justice. He was telling the house that what the noble lord called English prestige was valueless to a nation sinless it was based on that which was equi table in its policy to other nations. (Cheers.) He was not blaming the Government for adopting a policy which was inequitable. He was only warning them against two things —against partnership with another Power in transac tions which they could not control, and against snaking demands on the Government of China which were based on disasters caused by the folly of your own Minister, and which they tad no right, in the sight of God or man, to make. (Hear, hear.) He believed that, on looking back to the transactions with China for the past few years, there was nothing more vile or vicious to be found in our history —that there was no page in ouAinnals more full of real humiliation, because it was full of guilt, than that on which was recorded our transactions with China. (Hear, hear.) It was because he felt this, and wished the Government to live and prosper, and the house to stand'honourably before the country, to hold a position high in morals and credit before the world, that he warned the Government and the house against proceeding in a policy which no man in his conscience could say is not a policy in defiance of the law of Heaven, and in oppcsitiou to those laws and principles of justice without which human society itself could not be held together. (Cheers.) Mr. S. HERBERT said that the hon. member for Portsmouth seemed to have misconceived some words which had fallen from the noble lord, judging from the emphatic manner in which he deprecated an advance upon Pekin. The policy of the hon. br ronet seemed to consist in an advance on Nankin, which he supposed to be either in the h:ads of the rebels or left by them an utterly deserted waste. The hon. baronet farther stated that they should riot only advance upon Nankin, but permanently retain it, after having first reduced the Taku forts. That part of the advice of the hon. baronet the Government would not be disposed to follow. It was the desire of the govern ment to localise the war as much as possible, amid to confine it to the Chinese Government. The demands which had been made even after the disaster of the Peiho were of the most moderate kind, consisting of a demand for the ratification of the treaty as it originally stood, and an apology for the outrage coin ' mitted. There was no demand for an indemnity. The hon. baronet's warning against the advance on Pekin was hardly needed, especially by two such armies as the French and English, because the experience of the one in Cabul, and of the other in the retreat from Moscow would make them hesitate in advancing into a'country where the rivers were frozen. 'With regard to the co die immigration, Mr. Aus tin, a very valuable officer, was engaged in putting some restrictions upon that traffic, and he hoped that other Euro pean nations would accommodate themselves to the views of the English Government on the subject. He now came to the speech of the member for Birmingham. The hon. gentleman said, and he said with truth, that this was a question which need not be discussed with asperity on either side of the house, because both Governments had been more or less mixed up with the transactions which had occurred. He need not enlarge upon the treaty of Tien-tsin. He had his own opinion with regard to the transactions in China, ant would candidly say that he believed they had got in the wrong groove, and that they. would find it difficult to get out of it. (Hear, and laughter.) It might be true that the treaty of Tien-tsin imposed conditions unacceptable to China, and that we got advantages which we should have been better without, but that treaty having been accepted, they were bound to see that it was carried out, and its pro visions respected. (Hear.) The Chinese plenipotentiaries had beeir accused of treachery in their diplomatic negotia • tions with the British Minister. In that respect ho believed they were not far removed from the condition of diplomacy which existed amongst the civilised nations of Europe at the end of the last century and the beginning of the present. (Cries of "Now, now," and laughter.) Whatever might be thought of the policy in China for the last 20 years, and however much they might desire to obtain their ob ject without bloodshed, he believed it would be vain to ex pect that they coUld accomplish their purpose without the presence in China of a large naval and military force. The hondurable gentleman spoke of the success of the American Minister. He certainly profited by the presence of the English fleet, and wisely confined his demand to the most favoured nation clause. The presence of the English fleet very much facilitated their obtaining that result. It was very easy to be wise after the event, and to criticise he conduct of men 'who were acting at a great distance, and under very difficult circumstances. But supposing that Admiral Hope had suc:Teded in his attack, they would have nothing to say against Mr. , Bruce. He hoped, how ever, that when Lord Elgin. arrived in China matters would be placed on a better footing ; but ho was sorry to think that, to accomplish this purpose, he must be attended by a large military demonstration. (Hear, hear.) The Earl of Elgin had many qualities necessary for the mis sion. He had great local knowledge; and having natu rally the success of his own treaty at heart, he would be desirous to convert that treaty into a durable and per manent peace. No one could read the blue-book without seeing that his opinion was that England was asking too much, and dealing too harshly with the Chinese. Through out his correspondence there was a spirit of wisdom and conciliation which gave him (Mr. S. Herbert) the greatest hope that bis administration would also be marked by those qualities, and that he would place our relations with the Chinese oa such a footing as to secure us the blessings of commerce and peace. (Hear, hear.) He hoped the house would go very shortly into committee, when he would explain how matters stood with regard to this particular vote: Sir J. PAKINGTON quite agreed that this discussion should not be made a party affair. The late Government appointed Mr. Bruce, and while he agreed with the right hon. gentleman to that extent, he must add that the right hon. gentleman had not removed frorn his mind a feeling of disappointment with which he had heard the statement of the noble lord that evening. The noble lord had hardly acted up to his promise made the other evening that he would, on the receipt of the despatches, make a full state ment to the house as to what was to be the policy of the Government with regard to our affairs in China. The noble lord had not indeemed that pledge, and while they had a right to complain of the speech of the noble lord, he was sure the Government had no cause to complain of having been unduly pressed by the Opposition on this subject. On the contrary, he tad been apprehensive that with the Budget, the Reform sill, and our foreign policy, that attention might not be raid to this matter which was due to its great importance. ',Hear, hear.) It involved a question of the utmost importance to us in relation to our trade, to our Puture policy in China, and the general question as to whether we ehould eater into a great and expentaiye war or not. The reverse of the Peiho involved a degree of diffi culty which entitled the Government to the assistance of hon. gentlemen on all sides of the house. After that disaster it was right that the Government should see that our power and prestige in the East were not diminished— (Hear, hear.) He was not disposed, therefore, to find fault with the Government for sending out an imposing force to support their demand. Ho thought they had acted wisely in doing so. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman the member for Birmingham had alluded to a speech which he (Sir J. Pak ington) heard two years ago, but which the hon. gentleman did not hear, from a cause which ho was happy to see now existed no longer. He agreed with the opinion which the hon. gentleman the member for Rochdale had expressed to the hon. gentleman the member for Birmingham in. relas tion to that speech, which was the finest and most impres- sive he ever listened to in that house. He only hoped the right hon. gentleman had not forgotten the sentiments he then expressed. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The noble lord the member for the City of London also addressed the house on that occasion. The noble lord was not then sitting side by side with the noble viscount (Lord Palmerston) as he was now. (Laughter.) They stood in entirely different relations to each other. (A laugh.) The house had not forgotten the emphasis in which the noble lord—in a spirit of justice and wisdom in which he (Sir John Pakington) heartily concurred at the time—bade the house "Be just and fear not I" (Hear.) In the present state of our rela tions with China, he earnestly hoped that the noble lord would act on that principle. (Hear, hear.) As to the apology which was to be insisted on for the Peiho transac tion, he put it to the house, whether, taking the origin of the transaction, and the whole conduct of Mr. Bruce into consideration, we were really entitled to demand an apology. (Hear, hear.) If the apology were refused what was to be the alternative ? The right hon. baronet then quoted from Lord Malmesbury's instructions to Mr. Bruce, to show that those who said Lord Malmesbury's instructions justi fied Mr. Bruce in ordering the attack, were mistaken. On the charge of diplomatic duplicity, he quoted passages front the despatch of the Chinese Commissioners, and asked what more the Government could want of diplomatists. Their language was clear, fair, and bona fide, and he could not see that Mr. Bruce had any reason to doubt their sincerity. Immediately after he gave directions to Admiral Hope to force the passage of the Peiho. If he determined to force his way by that route, contrary to the determination of the Chi rise authorities, be thought he was not justified by the law of nations. It seemed that Mr. Bruce was impressed with a different idea of making a way to the capital from that which appeared justified by his instructions. He rather thought it was the intention of the Chinese to pay all honour to or r Minister, and it Was unfortunate•our Minister took a dif ferent view of the subject. It was unfortunate that our Mi nister ordered an attack. He thought the Chinese were justified in fortifying their coast. They had indicated the route our Minister was to take, and were we justified in de termining to take another route to the capital ? Well, then, if the Chinese refused an apology, he thought it most un wise to make it a cause of war. At all events, he hoped that no military operations would be ordered until the ambassa dors arrived on the spot. He took no exception to the mis sion of Lord Elgin; but was Mr. Bruce to continue in the same diplomatic capacity ? He hoped he would receive, some explanation of the policy of the Government. Mr. HOPE thought it was no excuse for ill-considered operations that the admiral showed personal gallantry. He thought Admiral Hope had refused to obey the instructions he had received, and he would submit his conduct io the judgment of professional men. However, although the opi nion of that house generally was in favour of Admiral Hope, ho would put it to every member whether he was not MO rally responsible for this unseen disaster. He protested against the waste of gallant lives in that attack. He ob jected to wars when success brought no honour, and defeat brought both disaster and dishonour. Mr. C. BRUCE read the British Minister's opinion of the admiral. He was a hero of the ,old school, and if he had under-rated his opponents, he should like to know who had not. That river was the ordinary route to the capital, and they had no reason to suppose that any such opposition would be offered. The French officers ac knowledged the gallantry of the admiral not in making the attack—for attack he did not consider it—but in opening the passage. He would take the libsty of referring to a sub. ject which had already been referred to in that house. It was stated that Mr. Bruce had received a message from the Governor-General; but the fact was that the booms were blown up on the previous night, and Mr. Bruce went, in ac cordance with his instructions, in a boat for the purpose of communicating with the official parties, and his boat was then fired upon. A member of the embassy, too, who was in the Magiciap, and anxious to communicate with the parties 'inside the bar, made the attempt, but was unsuccessful, and a most treacherous attack was made upon them. It was easy for those to criticise who were not in the difficult posi tion-in which Mr. Bruce was ; but great injustice had cer tainly been done to that gentleman. (Hear, hear.) The American Minister, however, and other official authorities did him the justice that was due to him. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Bruce's instructions were to go to Pekin, and there, and not elsewhere, to have the treaty with which he was en trusted ratified, and it was in his efforts to carry out his instructions that the deplorable calamity occurred. He (Mr. C. Bruce) however, did not think that the violation of the treaty of Tien-tsin was of itself sufficient cause to commit this country in a war with China; and here he must say that even success to the British arms, in such a war, would be a great calamity to this country. (Hear, hear.) They should not forget that China counted 300,000,000 inhabi tants, and that they would, if properly dealt with, become large customers for the manufactures of this country. The hon. number here quoted from a blue-book, narrating the instructions given by the Earl of Derby when in office, and by two other Governments, to Lord Elgin and Mr. Bruce; and proceeded to argue that the latter gentleman had not in any way departed from the letter of his instructions. All the documents also went to prove that the whole of the difficulties in the matter arose from there not having been any direct way of communicating with the chief officers of the empire. And here he might say that there were ample proofs that the " people" of China themselves were not averse to free and friendly intercourse with British subjects. Even at the Peiho, they had come forward, and lay " pre softs" manifested their friendly feelings. The hon. mem ber concluded by saying he felt strongly on this subject; and by hoping the house would render that fair award of justice to Mr. Bruce that was due to him. Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, I entirely agree with one of the expressions whichfell from the hon. baronet on the other side of the house, that when you judge the conduct of a man you ought to place yourself —or rather to imagine yourself —in the situation in which he was when he performed the act upon which •you are passing judgMent. (Cheers.) I think that is the way in which the conduct of Mr. Bruce ought to be considered. What were his instructions ? His instructions were to exchange the ratifications of the treaty wf Tien-tsin. He was told what those ratifications were, and that, in accordance with the terms of the treaty, they were to be exchanged at Pekin. He was ordered, there fore, to go to Pekin, and to go by the Peiho. He was told that at the mouth of the Peiho he was to go up the river in a ship-of-war as far as Tien-tsin, and that the ad miral was to accompany him with a sufficient force. What was the meaning of " a sufficient force ?" The only inter pretation which anybody in Mr. Bruce's position could put upon the term " sufficient force" was a force sufficient to enable him from the mouth of the Peiho to go up the river in a ship of war to Tien-tsin, and from thence to proomed to Pekin to exchange the ratifications. But then it was said that there was a qualifying clause in his instructions, viz,, that he was to pursue that course unless any unforeseen circumstances arose to induce hiss to think any other course'advisable. 'Well, then, sir, I say that Mr. Bruce was perfectly justified in thinking that no other cir cumstances had arisen to induce, him to alter his course. (Loud cheers.) The right hon. baronet had quoted a letter from the Chinese Commissioners, in which it was ad mitted that they themselves proposed that our Minister should proceed to the mouth of the Peiho for the purpose of going thence up to Pekin to exchange the ratifications. Well, then he comes to the Peiho, and what does he find there ? Does he find there an official communication say ing "the Government will not allow you to go up this way; you must go up some other way ; the passage here is ob jected to." Nothing of the kind; he finds, however, an impediment. The hon. baronet has said that every nation has a right to barricade itsrivers. But surely every nation has not a right to barricade its rivers against its own friends, if they wish to maintain peace, friendship, and commercial relations with the nation so represented. Well, then cam* the inquiry —What do these barricades mean ? The people say—" It is a simple arrangement of self-defence, established by the people of the district to protect them." Against whom ? Against your English Minister ? No —against pirates. Well, the British expedition were not pirates; therefore there was no reason to suppose that the barricades were placed there to intercept their progress. Was there any Chinese officer present to say —" You cannot go up this way : you must go up another way ?" Not a bit. There was nothing but militiamen and peasantry; at least there was no other authorised obstacle. Well, then, under these circumstances, it really appears to me that Mr. Bruce and Admiral Hope were perfectly justified in taking steps to remove obstacles which did not carry in themselves any semblance whatever of official resistance against that which they were authorised and entitled by the Chinese commis sioners to do. Well, did they begin the attack ? No ; in • stead of their removing the barrier, it was the Chinese who began the attack. Well, was the Peiho the wrong way ? The Pei-ho was admitted by the Chinese to be the way to Pekin. In the treaty which they had completed with Russia six weeks before this transaction there is literally a stipulation that the Russian Minister when he goes to Pekin shall go - by the Pei-ho. That is an admission by the Chinese Government that by the Pei-ho was the ptoper way for an ambassador to go. Moreover, by oar treaty of Nankin we are entitled to the privileges of the most favoured.nation, and therefore we were by treaty entitled to go by the Pei-ho—by the passage that was shut against our Minister. Therefore, I say, if any man will place him self in the situation of Mr. Bruce, knowing what was the usual practice, and with the responsibility upon him of excliangiligaliesratifications within the limited time,; I really cannot imagine any - man placed in the situation shrinking from the difficulty which he found in his course, and going away and leaving the treaty unratified, for any chance that might 4appeu, aftervf arde of ite ever bein rati tied.at all. I think if Mr. Bruce had taken such a course there would have been just reason for blaming him for not having performed his duty. (Hear.) It might have been said to him, " You were told to go up the Pei-ho in a ship of war. You were told to go with the admiral with a suffi cient force. There was a sufficient force. Why did you run away and set the honour of the country at nought ? Why did you go away when, according to all previous ex perience, you had a sufficient force ?" But the right hon. baronet says that on the morning of the day on which the attack took place, at nine o'clock, Mr. Bruce received a let ter from the Chinese authorities inviting him to take an other course. The right hon. baronet read the letter very glibly; and if Mr. Bruce had received the letter as it is in the blue book he would have read it very glibly too ; but unfortunately the letter was in Chinese, and it took a considerable; time to , translate it. lam afraid it was not less than two hours before the letter could be understood, and then he had to consult with M. Bour dillon, the French Minister. And some time was lost in procuring a boat, nearly all the boats having been sent below the bar, so that it was a long time before he could reach M. Bourdillon. Bysthat time the firiag had begun, and therefore it was too late to make any change in the operations. But supposing that the letter had come to him in time, would it have been wise to have gone round by the land route ? We know what would have happened, because the American Minister did go round that way and we know that he was detained some time before he was allowed to land, and then he was transported up the country in a wooden box with two wheels with no light or air in it, and at last, when he got to the last stage, he was obliged to get out and walk because it was impossible for him to endure the torture of riding in that box any longer. And when he got to Pekin he was kept a close prisoner and was not al ,lowed even to visit the, Russian Minister, and he was not allowed to exchange the ratifications, but was sent back. Now, would this country'have been satisfied if they found that their Minister had been sent to Pekin with a sufficient fel-Cc, : and that by his instructions he was not to submit, on his passage to Pekin, to any ceremony that was in the least degrading,'" for remember," said Lord Malmeshury, "what is done on your arrival in Pekin will be made a precedent for all future occaeions—remember the honour of the mis sion and the dignity of the country,"—l ask, would this country have been satisfied if they had been told, that our Minister had been detained some days before he was allowed to land—that he was then put in a covered cart, and so jolted that. he was compelled to walk a considerable part of the distance ? We know that in China there ere three modes of honour,,or of degradation, I may say. Those who ere treated with honour are carried in palanquinsand sedan chairs ;'those who are the next in rank are allowed to ride ; and, if any, none but those who aro of the lowest' class are put in these covered boxes. (Hear, hear.) I say, then, that even if Mr. Bruce had received the letter in time, it would - net have been prudent to have acted upon it. Cer tainly, if I had been in his situation, nothing should have induced me to consider that it would justify me in under going so much personal degradation and so much personal inconvenience. (Laughter.) I think it very unfair for Mr. Bruce to have cast upon him the censure to which some aro disposed to subject him. I accept the princi ple laid down by the right hon. baronet. I ask every one to consider himself placed in the same position, and to say what he would himself have done, as a man of honour, charged with a public responsibility? (Hear, hear.) The conduct of the gallant admiral has been sufficiently defended by those who are better able to judge of such matters than I am myself, and I thereforo pass that by. Everybody, I think, will admit that there never was a greater display of heroism, and that not by the admiral only, but by every one that was concerned in these transac tions. (Loud cheers.) The circumstance that success did not attend the efforts of our force detracts in no degree what ever from the bravery or the distinction of the services which they rendered. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gen tleman wants to know what is our policy with regard to China. That is a question undoubtedly which he is en titled to ask, and I think my noble friend has sufficiently explained what our policy is ; but • when the right hon. baronet asks what are our instructions with regard to the operations that are to ba - performed, that is a questionwhich I must beg leave to decline answering, because the house must see that to tell beforehand what are the instructions which have been laid down in order to guide the proceedings of our naval and military commanders, or our diplomatic agents, under circumstances that may not arise, might defeat the purpose fer which those instructions are given. (Hear, hear.) Our policy is simple, and I think it is just and correct. ,A treaty has been concluded with China, and that treaty has been approved by the Emperor—because, in the blue book you will see that he conveys to his negotia tors his entire approval of the treaty, and orders it to be carried into effect. Well, we want the ratifications of that treaty to be exchanged --we want that treaty to become a formally acknowledged contract between the two nations. (Hear, hear.) Some persons think that the treaty contains some concessions that it was not—l will not say justifiable— but, that it was not handsome in us to 'ask for. I ammot of that opinion. The chief variation between that treaty and the treaty of Nankin is, in the first place, that we obtained by it a right to have a resident at Pekin, and at all times to have a direct communicationwith thecentral Government— a right, the almost necessary consequence of the want of which has been to cause the differences and the unpleasant events which have taken placebetween the two Governments. (Hear.) We have hitherto only had communication with the Viceroy at Canton—an official whose great duty was to put us off with excuses, and sometimes not even to send to Pekin the representations that were made—to keep, in short, the " barbarians" off as far and as long as he could, till the result has been that accumulation of com plaints and grievances which has led to such important and such disagreeable consequences. (Hear, hear.) But there is nothing in that concession which could be offensive to the Chinese; because Russia has for some time had a diplomatic agent residing at Pekin, and we therefore ask nothing for ourselves that the Emperor has not already conceded to Russia. We have as much commercial inter course with China as Russia has, and I should think more. We have certainly more subjects resident in China; and there are more occasions when it might be essential to our interests that we should have the power of communicating directly with the Government of Pekin. (Hear.) It may be a matter of discretion whether we shall so far exercise that right as to have always a permanent resident at Pekin. There are many reasons why, during a portion of the 'year at all events, it may not be right to place any one in the position of having to live in that city; but the right of going to Pekin whenever we please, and of communicating directly with the central Government are really essential if we want to have our subjects and their property secure in their commercial relations with China. (Hear.) Then we obtain a right to navigate the great river Yang-tze-kiang, and some others that are named. At present, seeing that the rebellion has depopulated the towns on the banks of those rivers, that concession may not be of much moment. It has been recommended that we should take Nankin. If we did, I do not think that we should find good accommo dation for our troops and officers; but the right of going up the Yang-tze-kiang and the other rivers, and of trading with the population on their banks, is one that may here after be of great importance to us in the prosecution of our commercial relations with China. (Hear, hear.) Then there is a third concession, namely, that our subjects should have the right to travel in the interior with pass- Ports. (Hear, hear.) That is a matter of great importance; and the concession is one that would / sot be repugnant to the feelings or habits of the Chinese. People are apt to imagine that what took place at Canton is a sample of that which would take place elsewhere, but that is a great mis take. The bad feeling excited against us at Canton was, I believe, quite artificial ; for at Shanghai there is a large European population, who live in perfect amity 'with the natives. Whey visit and associate with each other, a n d our residents go into the interior to a certain distance without molestation, and on perfectly goo d terms with the inhabi tants. (Hear, hear.) Then our policy is to obtain the ra tification and the execution of the treaty of Tien-tsin. Our policy is to obtain for our subjects in China freedom for theinpersons and security for their commerce and their pro perty. (Hear.) Conquest does not enter into our views, it forms no portion of our policy to conquer any part of China Or to obtain possession of any part of it, except the island of Hong Kong, which we already hold ; but we do think, and I am persuaded the country has the same opinion, that it would have been disgraceful to us, and that we could not have expected to retain our position in the East, if, after the disaster on the Peiho, we had simply gone away and taken no further notice of it. (Hear, heir.) It is said you are pressing too much on the Chinese by demanding an apology. Well, sir, if we are to have any redress at all, I think an apology is the very least demand which either a nation or an individual can ask for an outrage such as that committed on the Peiho river. (Hear, hear.) There is no reason whatever for supposing that the Emperor of China is at all disinclined to give that apology, for he character ised the outrage in question as an isolated faci arising from the impetuosity of the British commander—that ft was not to interrupt in any degree the friendly intercourse bets den the two nations, and moreover that there was now actually open to British commerce one of the ports which by the treaty was to be added. Therefore, sir, I say there is no proof that the Emperor of China is in a temper of mind to refuse an apology. (Cheers.) When I am asked 'what is to be our policy in China I answer that our policy is to require the fulfil- ment of the treaty—a treaty of commercial intercourse with China, but not to involve the two nations in war, if war should not be necessary. We do not demand any additional cession of territory. To those gentlemen who seem to un- dervalue the importance of a commercial treaty with China, I say carry back your recollection to the feeling which _ . existed in this country when the treaty of Nankin was con cluded by Sir H. Pottinger, and the enthusiastic applause with which the announcement 'of that treaty was received. Why, sir, , the whole country admitted that the treaty was of the utmost advantage to the commerce of this country. The greatest advantages were anticipated from the increased commercial intercourse. with China, and there can be no doubt that by that treaty our commercial intercourse with China was greatly increased. Nor did we unreasonably anticipate the t_robability of events in believing that the treaty of Tien-tsin, coupled with that of Nankin, if faith- fully executed and carried out, would add vastly to the com mercial intercourse, not only of England (for we seek no Qiclu,sive advaAtages), but of the ether States Ltixope and America, with that vast population ; and not merely benefit Europe and America but tend greatly to the improvement and the prosperity of the Chinese themselves. (Hear, heir.) Mr. WHITESIDE had heard the noble lOrd at the head of the Government upon a former occasion, defend his Chi • nese policy against the noble lord the present Foreign Sec retary and the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer—(hear, hear)—but there was a majority of the House of Commons against him. What then did the noble lord do ? Why, he cashiered the House of Commoris which had voted against him, and he succeeded. The noble lord showed pluck. (A laugh.) The noble loril would have the Chinese to enter into commercial intercourse with us at the point of the bayonet. (Hear, bear.) And the noble lord spoke to-night in precisely the same vein re garding those Chinese as he spoke three years ago. lie expressed no repentance—no sense of remorse. He seethed to think it quite as right and as just to commence war against the Chinese now as it was then. (Hear.) The noble lord defended both the matter and .the manner of the pro- Ceedings which were called in question. He (Mr.Whiteside), however, took rather a different view, and must, in the first place, say he could by:no means exonerate Mr. Bruce from blame, although.he was far from desiring to cast any blame upon him. The right hon. and learned gentleman then quoted the despatch of Lord Malmesbury to Mr. Bruce, contend ing that no such interpretation was to be put upon his lord ship's instructions as those which some had endeavoured to put upon them. What LordMalmesbury said was, that it was desirable Mr. Bruce should reach Tientsin in a ship of war; but be gave Mr. Bruce no motive of making war upon China. But did Mr. Bruce exhibit a spirit or a temper likely to conciliate the Chinese Government? 'The right hon. and learned gentleman then quoted passagss from Mr. Bruce's despatches, in which he had expressed his opinion of the need of using peremptdiy and menacing language to the Chinese authorities, and, in fact, told them that conces sion was inevitable, unless they were prepared to draw the sword. The noble viscount's tone was evidently an invita tion to the admiral to do the same thing to the Chinese as on the former occasion. Common sense pointed out that Mr. Bruce should have taken another route, and that he should have adopted a peaceful line of proceeding. Now what was the policy of the noble viscount ? Why, no mat ter how many lives it would cost, our fleet must force its way up the Peiho. That might lead to a transaction as contemp tible and shameful as the affair of the Arrow, and for Which the noble viscount cashiered the Parliament. At that time the Chancellor of the Exchequer was opposed to the war, and now he had to apply for a vote for thepurpose of carry ing on the war. Ile was always glad to hear the noble viscount in that house, and when there was a prospect of a war he spoke with a jocoseness which was quite amusing ; but the reason of the war was said to be the extension of commerce and the promotion of manufactures, and no doubt they would get an • indemnitY from the Chinese people if they could afford to pay it. (Baer, hear.) He believed the responsibility of the war would rest upo* the head of the noble viscount, though he did not seem to feel it very much. (Hear, hear.) Mr. B. COCHRANE denounced the engagement with the Chinese as a most miserable one, and which ought to hays been avoided. Upwards of 400 Englishmen had been destroyed becausa Mr. Bruce could not read Chinese, and was not able to get a boat to go on board the vessel of the French admiral. He disputed the statement of the noble viscount with regard ,to the reception of the American Minister in going to Pekin. He did not believe he was ill-treated by the Chinese; and if that were so, why were not the papers introduced ? He regretted that a new Aver should have been commenced, and more especially that a Minister of the Crown should have made a joke of what occurred. Lord PALMERSTON observed that the hon. gentleman mistook him. He briefly stated that when the letter arrived it took him two hours to translate it; that Mr. Bruce had then to go to the French admiral, to consult him, and that in the meantime the action commenced. Sir HARRY VERNEY justified the conduct of the ad miral, and contended, that from his instructions, he could not have acted otherwise than he did. The house then went into committee on the estimates, but Mr. DISRAELI objected to such a proceeding at so late an hour. His right hon. friend the late Secretary for War had a statement to make, and as he was then absent, he Mould not permit the vote to pass. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed that he hoped the right hon. gentleman would not prevent the Government from keeping its engagements and so viola ting the law. All they wanted was the authority to carry on the public service and pay moneys that were now coming due. Mr. DISRAELI—If the right hon. gentleman says this is the last evening, of course he could not object, but it was not the way for conducting the public business. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said Cer tainly it was so, and if any objections were to be made they could be done on a subsequent occasion. Mr. DISRAELI acquiesced in that arrangement, sad the vote of L 850,000 forthe Chinese war was then agresdtf; The house then went into committee on the MusiciP" Corporation Mortgages Bill. PRISONS (SCOTLAND) ACTS CONTINUANCE BILL: This bill was road a third time and passed. COURT OF CHANCERY BILL. This bill was read a second time. ENDOWED SCHOOLS BILL. This bill was read a second time. MARRIAGES (ENGLAND ANDIRELAND) BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. PROFESSIONAL OATHS ABOLITION BILL. Mr. EWART obtained leave to abolish oaths now required for admission to certain professions, and it was read a first time. The other business on the paper was disposed of, and the house adjourned at a quarter-past one o'clock. COUNTRY MARKETS. LIVERPOOL—MutcH 16. 1 IWith a fair attendance of millers and dealers this morn ing, wheat met a good inquiry as well for consumption as a few parcels to hold over, and prices must be noted Id to 2d per cental dearer than on Friday last. Flour not saleable. Indian corn moves slowly without change in value. Oats steady, and oatmealleld for a slight improvement. Beans, peas, and barley had each a good demand, at fully former prices. The market on the whole shows an upward ten dency, but still not much activity. WAKEFIELD-MARCH 16. A fair supply of grain, with fewer arrivals of vessels. Wheat not active; but last week's prices were at an advance of is per qr. Barley and other articles steady, and quite as dear. Wheat, per qr. of 8 bushels 601 b., Essex, Suffolk, and Kent, white, old. 48s to 51s ; new, 48s to 51s; ditto, red, old; 42s to 41s; new, 42s to 44s ; Lincolnshire and York shire White, new, 45s to 50s ; red, 41e to 445. Arrivals this week : Wheat . Barley Oats Rapeseed Beans Linseed Flour .3,711 qrs. 19'4 sacks. EXETER—MAnut 16. • The business to-day was firm at the following prices : Wheat, whito..ss 9d to 6s 3d j Barley.. 4s Od to 5s M Ditto red 5s 3d to 5s 6d j Oats ....... 3s Od to 3s 31 Flour, fine, 33s to 31s ; seconds,l3ls to 32s per sack. CATTLE. The attendance was large, and th• market was well supplied with fat stock. Trade slack, at previous prices. A moderate supply of pork carcases. Fat beef,p score,9s6d to 10s6d Ewes, per lb .... 61d to Od Perk carcases,do 9s Od to 9s6d Wethers, d 0.... . . 7d to 71d Sheep, per lb. Rough fat, 4/d per lb. BRISTOL SUGAR-MARCH 16. The market has been characterised by a healthier tone than has marked it for some weeks, and there have been some considerable salesof raw sugars at rather better rates. Refined goods likewise experienced a better demand, and, although not quotably higher, values are firmer. Rume are still neglected. COAL MARILBT—MARCH 16. (Frices of Coal per Ton at the close of the market.) s. d. Walls End. Byass's Bebside West Hartley l5 9 Howard's West Hart ley 15 9 Tanfield Moor 13 0 Tanfield Moor Butes l3 0 Lambert's West Hart- • ley lb 9 Wylam l6 6 Holywell 16 0 Burnhope 13 0 Walker Primrose 13 3 Bell's Primrose .... l3 0 Buddle's West Hartleyls 6 Davisen's West Hart- s. d. Her gh Hall 19 6 Cassop 20 3 Whitworth 16 0 Byron .19 3 Thorpe 2O 0 Braddyll's Hetton 20 3 Framwellgate l9 3 Riddell l9 3 Eden Main l9 3 Haswell..... 21 0 Stewart's 21 0 South Hetton 21 0 Woodhouse Close 16 9 Black Prince Firth's Robin Hood • South Durham _l9 6 Trimdon Hartlepool..2o 9 South Hartlepool 20 0 Russell's Hetton 19 6 139—Sold. 128. ley .16 0 West Hartley 15 3 Walls' End. Kertoe 2O 6 Ships at market, BIRTHS. Busg.—On the 13th inst,, at Duloe Rectory, the wife of the Rev. Paul Bush, of a daughter. GWYN.—On the 15th inst., at the Honks, Twickenham common, Mrs. John K. Gwyn, of a son. MARRIAGES. WALKER—LETHBRIDGE. , - , -On the 15th inst., at Bishops Lydeard, Somersetshire, Major Hercules Walker, of the Rifle Brigade, to Julia Decim.a, daughter of Sir John Hes,keth Lethbridge , Bart., of Sandhill-park, in that county. DEATH S. CADELL. —On the 15th inst., Thomas Cadoll, Esq., late of Clapton, aged 53 HIPPISLEY.—On tho 15th inst., Lieutenant-Colonel Gus tavus Butler Hippisley, of Calmly, and Leigh Court, Somersetshire. _ GRIFFITILS.—On the 13th inst., at Chandos-street, Covent garden, Mr. David Griffiths, of the firm of Griffiths and. Crick, aged 72. LONDON: Printcd.:and.Publihed by MURDO YOUNG, of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 1 12, Strand, in ea.) Precinct of the Savoy, i n th e co unty of Ziliddlesex, Saturday, Nara, 17, 1660. Da nd. princi PRO 8 ItIBRiC This ] Wi th teleZn tVEIN aPproN past 8 13 U Of t h e e t to their purity BnRI ege tri d d es, a, the lan They Wines. 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