The Sun. — London, England, 1858-02-13 00:00:00

their function!, are yet a totally irresponsible body, whose views and acts are seldom known to the public, and whether known or unknown, whether approved or dis approved, unless one of the directori happens to have a seat in this house, ere out of the range of Parliamentary discussion. A gain, as regards our interest in India, I may state at once that the bill which we are proposing to the house is confined entirely and solely to a change in the administrative organisation at home, and that we do not intend to make any alteration in the existing arrange ments is India. In fact, if Parliament were to adopt the measure which we are about to propose, the only differ ence as far as India is concerned would be that the next despatch would go out signed by the President and the Council for Indian Affairs, instead of by the Court of Directors, and that the reply would be addressed to the President of the new Board, instead of to the chairman of the body sitting in Leadenhall-street. There can be no doubt that in India the name of tie Sovereign of a great empire like this mast be far more respected, far more calcaleted to produce moral and political impressions, than . the name of a company of merchants, however de serving. We have to deal with princes, some ruling in dependently, and some in a state of modified dependence upon us, and with feudal chiefs proud of their position, cherishing traditionary recollections of a wide empire, sad great sovereigns to whom their ancestors owed • allegiance. How can we expect such men tofeel any great .respect for a mere company of merchants? The respect - they would feel, the allegiance they would give, would be increased tenfold if the one were given and the other tendered to the Sovereign of a great and mighty empire. I believe that what gives force to the Company in India is not the fame or authority of the C ,mpany itself, but the knowledge which the people have that behind the Companyand strengthening it is the power of the British empire, and that, although the nominal ruler may be an officer of a commercial nation, the real ruler is the Sove reign of this great country. I am therefore satisfied that the transfer of the Government of India to the Crown would, as far as its effect upon the people is concerned, be equivalent to a large reinforcement of troops; that the impression which would be produced would be most ad. vantageous, and would consolidate and strengthen the moral and political influence of England in those regions of the world. What, then, is the arrangement which we are about to propose ? We wish to alter things as little as we can consistently with the great object we have in view. That object is to make the responsible advisers of the Crown answerable for the government of India as well as for that of all our other possessions beyond seas. We wish that the affairs of India should be administered by men responsible to Parliament for the manner in which that errantry is governed. We propose, therefore, that the functions of the Court of Directors, and of the Court of Peoprietore, should wane; &bat there shoul.i be substituted for those bodies a President, assisted by a Council, for the affairs of India ; that that President should be a member of the Government, and should be the organ of the Cabinet with reference to all matters re lating to India ; but, as men who have distinguished themselves in public life, and who are likely from time to time, as changes of Administration occur, to be placed at the head of that department, could not be supposed to possess that detailed local knowledge which is essential to the wise government of the country, we propose that the President should be assisted by a council composed of persons tamed by the Crown, with the condition that they should either have been directors of the East India Company, have served a certain period in India in a civil or military capacity, or have resided there a certain num ber of years unconnected with the local administration. We propose that that council should consist of 8 mem bers, that they should be appointed for 8 years, and that two should retire by rotation every 2d year, in order that successive administrations may be able to renew the council from time to time by the introduction of persons returning from India with fresh knowledge and ideas. We think that while, on the one hand, the permanency of a councillor for eight years will make him an in dependent adviser of the President, he will not, on the other, by being appointed for ltfe, block up the way to the accessionfof other persons who may be more capable of serving the country. (Hear.) Of course, as the proposal is to transfer to the Government of the day full responsibility for the management of Indian affairs, and as the President will be the organ of the Cabinet upon Indian matters, just as the Secretary of State for the Colonies and the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs are the organs of the Government in regard to the depart ments under their respective care, the decision of the President must be final in all matters which may be treated of in the Council. But if we propose that if the councillors differ in opinion from the President they shall have the right to record that difference, together with their reasons, upon the minutes of the Council, so as to be able to justify themselves afterwards . for having differed from the President. Tee full power of the President, however, will not extend to matters _involving increased expense to the Indian revenue, and for purposes of that sort it will be necessary 'that he shall have the concurrenee of four councillors to any proposals which he may have to submit. In the temporary absence of the President a Secretary of State will be able to act for him, and four members of the Council will be a quorum for the transaction of busi ness. We propose that the Council shall have the power of distributing among themselves the business which comes to them, so as to allot different departments of basin ses to different members of C emcd, who will make reports to the Council itself. We propose that the Pre sident shall be placed on the f )sting of a Secretary of State, and that the councillors shall have a salary of 1,0001. a-year each. We propose that all powers vested in the Court of Directors shall be transferred to this Council, and, therefore, that all appointments which have hitherto been made by the Court of Directors or others, subject to the approbation of the Crown, shall be made by tha.Crown direct, bat that all appoiat manta in India which have hitherto been made. by local authorities shalthe continued, so that no part of the local Indian patronage will be transferred to the Govern ment of this country. (Cheer; ) We propose that the President shall be able to appoint one secretary, who _shall be capable of sitting in this house, It will be con venient that a Cabinet Minister holding that situation shall have the assistance of a secretary c , nversant with the business which may come wider discussion : but we do not, propose that the ci•uccillors shah be capable of sitting in Parliament. (Hear, hear.) We think there would be great inconvenience in such an arrangement ; that they would become party men I that they would necessarily associate with one aide or the other in this house, and that, with cliaeges of administration, the relations between the President and the councillors might then bsoome exceedingly embarrassing. (gear.) (hie point which has always attracted the attention of those who have considered these matter', and which has • created even a very considerable constitutional difficulty, lase been the question of patronage. Many men hive Said that they think the Government of India a cumbrous and antiquated machine which ought to be done away with. That was the opinion in 1833 of a great number of those who took part in the discussion, but it was always said, " flow can ese manage with the patronage I We do not wish to increase the p ttrol.age of the Government, and we fear that this tran,l,r would make that augmentation." But as I have said with regard to local appoietmeate, all those appointments which have hitherto been made either by the Govern*: General or by other authorities in India wi 1 cont.ne exactly as before to be made by tam, the members o the local csuncil being named by the Governor-General instead of being named hence. An arrangement was m ide in 1353 by which all appointments to wri!.ersbipi were given by open competition. That arranoment we shall of course maintain. (Cheers.) Writersbips, therefore, are ..beyond the range sf patronage. The appointments to cadetships have hitherto been divided between members of the Court of Directors and the President of the Board of Control. What we propose is to leave the appoint ments to those cadetships as they have been hitherto. The reduction from the number of directors to the number of councillors will give somewhat more patronage to the councillors, but the addition to the patronage of the President will be hardly perceptible. It must be remembered that hitherto we have had an enormous native army, and it does not seem probab'e that we shall keep up that force to the same ami,unt. (Flear.) As regards the civil appointments, they wid remain matters of public competition, and as regards appointments to cadetships, they will be made as I have stated, with, probably, the additional conditions that the cadets shall be appointed to probation in some military college, their final appointments to regiments depending on the efficiency of their studied. There is one condition which we propose to attach to this distri bution of cadetships—viz., that a certain proportion of first appointments, which we cannot fix in a Bill, but which must be left to the discretion of the Councii from time to time, shall be reserved for the eons of civil and military ofilsera who have serve 1 in India. (Cheers.) According to that arrangement it will be seen that no addition of patronage will devolve upon the exe cutive Governent)seorst Goff thean account to excite constitutional jealouy on the The"army in India Commons. (Hear.) .1 House of will I consist, as heretofore, of Queen's troops, formi ng a and local corps enlistedp.of in regular army of this country, troops 'no eisa ngs will be made. With regard to Queen's others, they will be tram; made. With regard to the subject t red to the crown for the ser vice of the company, which they same conditions of service as those under were enlisted, and if dislike that change I think in common justice they will be entitled to their discharge, with re gard to local military services, tha a : n t d t t r e h o t p a r t o o s t o e h o d e i shall be paid out of the revenues of India, shall to Asia so long as tney arc paid ornBteortvlee6 Indian - revenue. At present, I believe, the limit of service for the company's troops is as far as any place eastward e of the Cape. It is proposed that if at any time a part of the local army shall be employed out of Asia, the troops shallahen not be paid out of the Indian revenue. It inustlie for this house to determine whether a force so employed shall be paid out of the revenue of this . conatry and whether t ieir employment is consonant with what the interests of India may be. It is proposed that, whereas wG transfer to this ProOdent of the Coun cil the functions'of the Court of Directors and Board of Control, both of which will be abolished, the functions and powers of the secret esromittee, which govern suet tors, involving great discretion and temporary secrecy, should be vested in the President, as representative of the responsible Ministers of the Crowr. But wo propose that in any case in which orders *limit he sent to India involving the immediate commencement of hostilities cornMUDiCation thereof shall be made to Pm : Fame-A within one month, if Parliament he then sitting, or ilterVal will prevent .n,jaiy to rbt• pubic mica paCA • b'f n it iveon of orders so issued , whilegive iy of calling upon the Government ment the opportuni. for explanation of the causes such orders were is for which t t,,:n h, uhl U3d: OF cours e it Will be neoass try th le en effective audit of the revenues ofedia and their application. revocue the It is required by this hi! that g shall be applied solely fur purposes of overnment in India. It is proposed that an auditor shall be appointed ? with the power of appointing assistant au ditor, for the j oants of receipts purpose of examining minut e ly the ace and expenditure, and that the accounts when audited I shall be laid before Per ilment. Of course . power will be given to the President of the Council to Josue to the Company such sums as may be necessary to defray the expenditure required for paying their dividends and keeping their books, until the Company determine whether they will or will not avail themselves of the option given them of being paid in a certain time. for their stock. This, then, is, generally speaking, the outline of our measure. Of course, the details would come under the consideration of the house if it *should, as I trust it will, give us leave to bring in the bill ; and when the bill shall be in the hands of hon. members, they will then have to consider the details, such as I hare described, as well as some other points which I have not thought it necessary to advert to. But the question now to be considered is simply the great and large question, whether or not we shall transfer to the executive and responsible Ministers of the Crown the direction of the affairs of our Indian territories, or whether that direction shall be left!as heretofore under the cumbrous and compli cated system described as the double government, which, in my opinion, is full of embarrassment and calculated to accomplish the purpose good government ought to have in view—(hear)—and which, though continued heretofore, because no great events called on Parliament to reconsider it, ought, I think, to be abolished without further delay. (Hear, hear.) Now, Ido not think I shall be met by objections to this principle itself, because, when I recollect what has passed on former occasions this house, and when I know what is the general opinion of the country on the point, I cannot persuade myself that we shall meet with any strong opposition t the general prineiple on which the measure is founded. (Hear.) When I look back to see what passed in 1853, I find some of the leading members of this house ex pressed strong opinions that the time must come at no distant period when an entire change must be made, and that the introduction of Government members into the East India direction was only the first step to a further and ulterior measure ; and the only doubt was whether a full measure ought not at that time to be adopted. But whatever may have been the opinion of Parliament at that time, I am much mistaken as to the signs and indications of opinion in the country now if the nation at large had not made up its mind that this double government ought to be made to cease. (Hear.) I am convinced that this is the opinion of the country, and great disappointment would be felt if this house should negative the bill upon an objection to the principle itself on which it is founded. (Rear, hear.) We ehal; no doubt be met by a motion for delay, and be told that this is not the time for discussing the measure—(hear) —that India is unsettled ; that we should wait until a calmer period, and until the difficulties in India are over. Why, that plea hr is ieeariabiy the plea set up by those who are anxious to oppose that which they cannot resist directly, bat which they wish to get rid of by the intermediate polity of proposing delay. (Hear.) They say, "Do not alter the machine of government at a time when India is unsettled and in difficulty, when you have not fully got rid of the mutiny, and when you have not entirely re-established authority in every part of the country." What does tliat argument amount to when it is analysed ? It is said, "Do not change your Government now, because there is in India that to be done which is difficult to be accomplished, and which therefore it might require great power to accomplish." Will, then, any man pretend that a single Government at home will not be a much more effectual instrument for the purpose than a double Government? (Hear.) Will any man pretend to tell me with a view to rapidity of discussion, unity of purpose, and responsibility to the public, a GOvernment administered by the responsible advisers of the Crown would not be a far more efficient instrument for everyeLiag to be done here than the exist ing conflict of checks and counter-checks, the system of previous communications mad subseq uent communica tions, of objections 'co a d ssetch and its trawler by cabs from one part of the town to another, by which delay was created, so that a despatch which ought to go out to-morrow might not go out for a month, or be ready until it was too late to send it out. Why, no reasonable man will venture to get up and tell the house that the present machine can be so effective and so powerful a machine for administration at home as the machine we propose to substitute for it. (Hear ; hear.) Will any man acquainted with India tell me that the name of the Com pany (which is now pretty well seen through by the natives in India) can have half or the tenth part of the powerful influence of the name of the Crown. (dear.) I declare it is noasonse to say that the Indian chiefs would not feel ten times more respect for the Rajah of England than for the name of an unknown company. (Coesre and laughter.) Well, then, I say, if we look to India, the machine wnich we propose to substitute is a mach m re powerfulmachine, and iofinilely more influen tial than the existing one. Then we are told that there is a state of difficulty in India, and what is the proposal of those who want delay ? Toey say that in order to overcome this difficulty and to restore tranquillity in India, which we are told is a matter of great difficulty and which will require groat strength and power to effect, we should prolong the existence of the present weak system, instead of substituting for it a stronger, more powerful, and more effectual system. (Hear.) In that argument there is no sense, I submit. (a:3ar.) However, we shall be toff by sense that the Government of India is a great mystery—that the unholy ought not to set foot in that temple—that the House of Commons should be kept aloof from any interference in Indian affairs—that if we tranfer the Government to the Minis ters responsible to Parliament, we shall have Indian affairs made the subject of party pa,sions iu this house, and that great mischief would arise therefrom. I think that argument is founded on an overlooking of the fundamental principles of the British constitution. (Hear ) It is a reflection on Parliamentary government. The management of India is mainly dependent ou those general principles of stet, smanship, which men in public life in this °wintry acquire hero, and make the guidance of their future coerce. Ido not think so ill of this house as to int/gine that it would be disposed fur factious purposes or for the momentary triumph of party to trifle with the great interests of the country as connected with the administration of our Indian affairs. (Hear.) lam accustomed to think that the Parliament of this country does ceinbine in itself as mesh adminis trative ability and as much statesmanlike knowledge and science as are possessed ley ail number of men in any other country n hatever, and I own, with ail repast for the Court of Directory, that I cannot bring myeelf to think that the Parliament of England is less capable or wisely administering great affeit s of Slate in connecion will India than the Court of Directors in LeadeLhall street. lam not afraid to trust Parliament with an in sight into Indian affairs. (Rear, hear.) I believe, on the contrary, that if things have not gone on so fast in India as they might have done—if the progress of im provement has been somewhat slower than might have been expected, that eff.xt has arisen from the circum. stances that the public at large were wholly ignorant of Indian affairs, and had turned away from them, being daunted by the complications they imagined them to be involved in ; and because Parliament ha; never had face Ito face, in this arid the oth er h o u se , men p ersona ll y an d eritraly responsible for the administration of Indian affairs. No doubt a good deal has been done in the way of improvement of late yearn, but that which has been done I may venture to say, has been entirely the ri.sulk, of debates in this and the other house of Parlia ment. (Hear.) And, so far from any discus ion on India hav,ng worked evil in India, I believe that the greater part of thoseiasprovements which the East India Directors boast cf in that publication which has lately issued from Leadenteall-street has been the result of pres sure on the Indian administration by debates in Parlia ment and discussions in the public press. 'Therefore, so far from being alarmed at the col 9 quinces which may arise from bringing Indian affairs under the cognizance of Parliament, I believe that a great benefit to and through India to the British nation, will resalt therefrom. Therefore, I say, I see no reason, either on the score of principle or on the score of the augueeeta mica of patronage, or on the score of time or con-titu tional danger, why we should not at once pass the measure which it will be my duty to present to the House. 1 trust that Parliament will feel that great power is not given to nations without corresp n:ding duties to be performed. We have, by an almost miraculous train of events, been ii.trusted wi h the destinies of 150 or 160 millions of men—with the government, directly or indirectly, of a vast empire larger in extent than all the face of Europe, putting the Russian empire out of the question. That is a task which involved great responsibility. (Hear.) Do not imagine that it is the intention of Providence that England should possess that vast empire, and that we should have in our hand the destinies of that vast multitude of men, simply that we may send out to India the sous of gentlemen or of the middiing classed to make a decent fortune to live on. That power has been in trusted to us for other purposes ; and I think it is the duty of this nation to use it in such a manner as to pro mote, as far as they can, the instruction, the enlighten ment, and the civilization of those great populations wLich are now subject to our rule. (Cheers.) We have lately wi nessad in India scenes of barlarAy which would make any man shudder, but are we wholly irre- , . sponsible -Lief power in Ind ia, we had for which we have ex3r., for those scenes ? If, durieg . the two centu . ries , think their nature would not, you t ^ions crimes used that power to enlighten and civilise it ioca t e h e ro p e e tt o i p u l r e e , do which they have committed least, have been change . d, s they were to those of the a d n w d o t u h l a d t the nn; atrocious re pugnant to their feelings as been as ght to remember that we o l u ndia, people of this country? d if we commit its per that duty will be best discharge have a great duty to ful:l V i e n will be accountable and I am sure that torrnance to the hands of men who to P ar li ament far their conduct, and who will feel them selves bou n d t o acqua i nt t h e pu bli c o f this county, step b y step, with th e arrangements which they may mane. I am confident, if P ar li amen t s h ou ld a d op t th e measure i we are a b out to propose, that while on the one hand i will add to th e strength of our position in India, whi . , cit will increase the power of Void country, and render our influence more firm and secure, it will on the oLer hand enable u s more efficiently to perform those duti .9 which,in my view, it was intended that we should discharge when the great I n di an empire was transferred tO Our coovLtr t•iltneti l ol• beg for leave to b r i ng i n a 8.11 for the better gt of India. (Lud cheers.)Mr. T. BARING, in moving an amendment, that it was not expedient at present to legislate fur the government of India, said that everyone in that house and the counir-, mast concur in the noble lord's r:mark, that the grea. , object they all had in •i 977 was the welfare of India an our fel:uw-subject s iu ti :.t eor.u . ..iy - (~ear, Lear) - aud it was in consequence of his believing that the bill ce the noble lord at the present moment would not con duco to that object that be proposed the kbovi amendment. It was unnecessary for him to follow thi noble lord through his description of the tile of tla East India Company, nor into a discussion of the compa rative merits of the elective body of proprietors nor cadet- ships, other than to acid that if the noble lord had eare7l:ll; read the evidence taken in 1853, he would . net have chargeu all canvassing directors with obtaining votes by promises of cadetships. The appeal he made to the house was thi s —to say, aye or no; was this the right moment to make the proposed change. The noble lord had said he proposed to make no change in hale, but would any one assert that to change the system in this country would not also have the effect of changi' g the government in India. The constitution of one reacted on the other, and when they deprived a body of men (two-thirds of whom were elected by an independent constituency) of their administrative functions, and placed them in the hands of eight Crown nominees, the effect must be to create a great change in the government in India. The noble lord commenced by com plimenting the East India Company, and afterwards said their government was a cumbrous machine, which he was not aware till an emergency arose needed so great a change. The noble lord had, however, failed to state its defects, and, if they existed Government was to blame for them. He denied that the proposed change would be so beneficial is the noble lord considered, and he asked the noble lord to show in any of Sir Colin Campbell's despatches that he had found the Queen's name of such power and influence as the noble lord considered it would be in India. He doubted if the noble lord would get the support of Lord Canning, or any man who bad been in India to this mea sure. The hon. gentleman remarked that the noble lord had wisely abstained from noticing the Calcutta memorial ; and with regard to the system of checks and counter-checks complained of by the noble lord, he said he considered they were highly beneficial for the government of India. The proposed change was looked to with great apprehension by the people of India under existing circumstances. Would the Hindoos not be in some manner influenced by this change of Government? Let this change take place, and the Hindoos would say that the change of Government would involve a change in the privileges which the native population had hitherto enjoyed. We were now in the midst of a gigantic mutiny, but a greater task than that of suppression lay before the Government, and that was the task of conciliation. (Hear.) Was the Parliament of England in a position to say what was required for the tranquillisation of India ? Not a crumb of comfort in this respect had fallen from the noble lord, who seemed to rely solely on the magical influence of the Queen's name. He denial that that house was qualified in point of informa tion to decide what the precise measure for Indiaought to be. He hardly mat a man who did not ask him where he could learn something about Indian affairs—(hear)—and with the flesh complicaions which had arisen out of the mutiny it was most unwise to precipitate a measure in volving radical change. The noble lord did not frame the measure on any alleged shortcomings on the part of the present Government. The noble lord lead no special eround for the measures nor did he say that the Indian Gterrernment had disappointed reasonable expectations. All the noble lord asserted was that the machinery was " cum brous." (Hear.) The noble lord sneeringly stated that he did not expect opposition from that (the opposition) side of the house. The noble lord might better have uttered that taunt to his supporters, who had made themselves re spoasiLlo fur the measure of 1353. (User.) t's hat had occurred since that time to justify the impugning of that measure ? (Hear.) If, when that measure was passed, he had known that the then formed Government was to be changed in four years, he should have said, " Pass such a measure in 1853, when there is tranquillity in India." A measure which might have been prudent to pass then it may be madness to propose at this moment. A committee had sat on the affairs of India, but not one of its members, he believed, had asserted that the existing machinery of the Indian Government was a cumbrous machinery. (Hear.) The President of the Board of Control would no doubt state in what reaped his benevolent suggestions had been followed or rejected. (Hear.) The present First Lord of the Admiralty was a member of that committee, as was the present Secretary for the Colonies. Tho First Lord would no doubt state in his place to what extant he thought the act of 1833 and that of 1853 had been successful or not. The Secretary of the Colonies had, in a recent speech, said that our colonies were well governed, because they had been left to themselves. Was the right hoe. gentleman pre pared to add the same language with respect to the go vernment of India? The proposal of the Government was in fact a revival of a system which had proved unfortunate in our colonies, where patronage and domination had led to the most disastrous results. (Hear, hear). The noble lord said that party and political feeling was not rife in India, but he (elr. Baring) much feared that the state of things, in which the late Lord Hardinge said that he knew a man's politics in India only by accident, had passed away. (Hear, hear.) He repeated his opinion that the change in the name of the Government would be con sidered to be without meaning in India. There was a growing feeling out of doors in this country that there was to be an attempt to Christianise the native population. For his own part, he desired that the conversion should be the result of conviction, and not of any forced measures on the port of the Government. (Hear, hear.) Groat progress had been made in India both with respect to in ternal improvement and in the spread of education, and it was clear that the "delay" of which the noble lord spoke had not checked these steps. A member of the late Go vernment had stated is the House of Lords that the Government of India was an anomaly. But the circum stances attending our possession of this great dependency were altogether exceptional, and we had no precedent to guide us. (Hear. hear). The noble lord said that public opinion was the safeguard required; but he (Jlr. Baring) asked whether the public opinion of England was at this moment ripe for taking the initiative. (Hear, hear)? He feared that at this moment the public feeling of England was heated with regard to India. (Hear, hear). The pro posed council would no doubt be composed of intelligent men, but it was absurd to say that they would be inde pendent. (Heir, hear). He did not know who the first eight names were to be; but in Mr. Fox's bill there was at least the semblance of deference to some other authority than the Government. (Hear). Before they "put down a Goverment it was their duty to put down a inntlnta and ho implored the bowie to pause before it asked for the de struction of one Government in the absence of proper in formation. His hoe. relative, the member for Portsmouth, had recently said that the East India Company would shortly be matter of history. Fortunately, the pages of that history wero still open, and he trusted that when they were real it would be admitted that althongh faults might, be detected, there had been unexampled success armor., plishe I by the split of commercial enterprise and by the indomitable courage of the European soldier. (Hear.) In reading that page of history, they would find that great statesmen bas wisely governed that country. He hoped, moreover, that it would not be found in that history that 3ritish Government an la British House of Commons had, in the midst of a gigantic mutiny, converted the dominion of the Qaeon into the shuttlecock of party. (Cheers.) The hon. member concluded by moving an amendment, that it is not at present expedient to legislate for the government of India The SPEAKER having put the question, Sir E. PERRY suid, that having laid on the table a motion involving the same objects as the present bill, he trusted he might offer some observations in reply to the hon. member for Huntingdon. Although he was desir ous for the introduction of such a measure as this in 1853, he nevertheless thought that the time chosen by the noble lord for his proposed law was very well chosen. He said that the company's Government had ceased to receive that respeet from the inha.bitantsof India which it had formerly po cussed, and that a desire for a change was almost nni ' versal there. That government was condemned by the public as an effete, useless, and cumbrous machine. Pro bably no government had acted with purer intentions ; bat his complaint was, that their practice was not in accord ance with their intentions. Tho system of education in India owed its origin to Parliamentary influence. He re collected when ho had the honour of being elected presi dent of the board of education in the presidency of Bom bay, ho received one of the abler, an I most luminous state I papers drawn up by Mr. James Mill on the subject. That state paper was lookod upon as the magna charta of Indian education. It was not the business of those who supported the present bill to bring any charges against the Court of Directors. His objections to the present system applied both to the Court of Directors and the Board of Control. Ha had no doubt that there were knits on both sides; and that in their joint action they male an exceedingly bad system. The hon. member for Huntingdon had pronounced a great eulogium upon the government of the East India Company. But previous to 17,14 alliparilet--Mr, Pitt, and Mr. Fox—were agreed that it was venal, corrupt, oppres sive, felse, and treacherous in its relations to the native states, It is clear from the language of Mr. Pitt when he introduced the bill which was the fouudetien of the present system, that ho contemplated that eventual transfer of the govornment'of India to the Ministers of the Crown which was now, $3 years afterwards to be carried out by the bill of the noble lord. Mr. Pitt's act did not give the Crown all the power over the government of India that was desirable, and various acts had been passed to give them that power. The course of legislation had left the Court of Directors a mere caput ntortuain, and he should, therefore, strenuously support a measure which, while it would not give th e Government more power or patronage than they now possessed, would impose upon them a complete responsi bility to parliamentary control. Up to the present time we had not known who was re:Tensible for the Afighan war. Such a state of things was most unsatisfactory. We should know who was responsible for every such event, either in India or the colonies; and that would be secured by this bill. His hon. friend objected to the abolition of the secret committee. But they were merely the instruments of the President of the Board of Control, who could secretly and orders to India through their medium without their nature bring known either to the Court of Directors or to Parlia ment. But according to the bill of the noble lord every order issuedby the President of the Council for India would be laid before Parliament within a month after it was issued, and would be liable to be canvassed and discussed. Notwithstanding the inferiority of Ceylon to Hindostan in soil and climate, and in the races by which it was inhabited. the progi ess of that islaud, which is under Crown government, contrasted in every respect most favourably with that made in ladle under the government of the company. The evils which had marked our colonial government could not appear in India unless that house neglected its duties. Whyhad there been an absence of corruption Beni jobbery in the adminie tettian of the Indian patronage? Because, under acts of Parliament, the patronage in India was placed in the hands of the local government in India, who were obliged to con fer appointments upon those who had served a certain time in India and had certain qualifications. He cer taiply did not think that at a time when the administra tion of patronage was daily becoming more and more pure Parliament was likely to relax those salutary provisions. There was one reason why ho thought the present time peculiarly suitable for legislation. Ho couldnot see with out the gravest apprehension the antagonistic and turbu lent spirit displayed by the English public and the English press in India towards the natives. He desired that Indian subjects should be discussed in England, that it might be eseifehud with thatth th e e op g i e n n i e o r n o s u o s f the analprropstlepooflittihcispoyof L country co o i r n d Canning, - dis tinctionrefEunsegclltornmanakseoalnoyngas who had s a between a n t e iv ' ? O f and as tly an Englishman sehobueldlievsuepipotrhtatthise T e n a e c a h st r ir e e m o a f i a ge a noble loyal acid,s subject. because 'ct. He h promote the civili3ation and the improvement of India, and ultimately its admission into the Christian 'old. (Hear, hear.) Mr. M. MILNES than,ght it was not the proper time to .utro Ince n measure of this description in the midst of the ,res,nt crisis in Icdia. Ile, at al events, who ha 1 in iis3 done all he could to perpetuate the Government of the '4 ' ,lst In lin Coinpnny, could not sum:oil; the mensura of his loble fried, except the strongest ca,4o in its fAvonr wen flride out. New, he e3uld imagine that sich a case might 91s.ibly have btea presented. It might have been shown hat at the late crisis the action of th - a double Government isi boon so dangerous to the perwaitetica of the English tower in India that it was noce.stTy to abolish it. But it nil rot 1) ,, n shown by the n , hlo lord that. the gocees; of iti patting down the lauclny ua•i be,h , heeked or impeded by the double Government. Nor hr.d been shown that the mutiny had been caused by that laverninent. Ha did not see, therefore, hcw those who 1813 huppor tett the double Govornment could now be ailed upon to ahaud in it. It always seemed to him most lauscrous to obliterate in a marked and obvious manner a irne•honoured institution ; and he therefore looke I with :Almness on the Shortcomings of the East India Company, lece.use they were rather due to the imperfections of hu •nan nature than to any want of good intentions on the pact of the Government. Re did not' think that the free. 1 1 118 SUN, LONDON, SATURDAS EVIENING, FEBRUARY 13, 1858, done of England afforded any guarantee for the just govern- went of India. As far as he understood, the Council of Eight, who were to assist the Indian Minister, were simply to have the power of recording their dissent. Th a t, howeve r, before would Parliament, no be done in much less a mannerwo would thatci they have wouldae t h b: brought check upon him which was at present supplied by the pre sence in that house of directors of the East India Company, who could state their views, in opposition to those of the President of the Board of Control. Of such a council he could not think that any man conversant with India, much less any director of the East India Company, would consent to become a member. Upon the future distribution of pa tronage under this measure, he conf esse d h e cou ld not b ut look with alarm, for it was, he thought, clear that when the President and his councillors all sat in one room, and were in constant communication, its distribution would be arranged in accordance with the convenience of the Minis ter of tho day. They had seen the fat e o f co l on i es w hi c h came in contact with the patty stru gg l es i n th a t h ouse. H e recollected the disaffections in Canada and Ceylon. In both cases great injustice was committed, and the interests of the parties concerned were contin ua lly su b or di nate d to the interests of parties in that house. By parliamentary dis cussion they brought about an almost total dissolution of that government of Ceylon which is now so highly lauded. Ho confessed this seemed to him an awful peril to which we are now about to expose the destiny of 150 millions of peo ple. No reason had been assigned by the noble lord through. out his speech forth° choice of this particular time for the introduction of this measure. Could it be th e E as t I n di a Company were unpopular with the people, and that it was thought that it would be advantageous to the Government to abolish that body ? He did not, however, believe that the people of England did feel any hostility to the East India Company. The Government of Indi a h a d b een th e government of India by the middle classes. It had been free from party spirit, and was the only gover nmen t i n th e world under which it is admitted that in the distribution of patronage no preference was given except to merit. He did not think that that patronage would in future be dis tributed with the freedom from favouritism which had hitherto been the case. For his own par t h e had not the same faith as some of his hon. f r i en d s i n th e competitive system, which it was said was to furnish a safeguard against all abuses. The best boys did not always turn out the best men; and at this moment, when th e servants of the Emit India Company, both civil and military, had shown them selves men of whom we could not but be proud—when the achievements in India had obliterated the remembrance of the failares in the Government war in the Crimea—at this moment to say to such men as those to whom he had referred, that the Government they were administering was an unworthy Government, did seem to him most un grateful conduct on the part of a great nation. Mr. W. VANSITTART could not believe that the House of Commons would refuse to grant the reasonable prayer of the East India Company, and appoint a com mittee to inquire into the conduct and constitution of the government. He trusted, too, that Wort any alteration was Laude ia the existieg government fall inquiry would be made into the cause of the present mutiny, as he con ceived that it would be found that great blame would be attached to the Government at home for having kept the Company so short of European troops. The hon. member proceeded to refer to the paucity of troops at the time of the mutiny, and the total absence of troops at most of the principal oities in the Bengal Presidency. Before the an nexation of Oude there were three regiments of Europeans more than there were after the annexation of that country, while in Oude itself, with 216 strongly fortified forts, there was but one regiment of Eur o p ean t roops. It was th e mos t impolitic thing to! pursue this system of annexatio n with out a corfesponding increase of military force to maintain the provinces so annexed in a state of proper organisation. The e hon. member paid an eloquent and merited eulogy to the bravery and valour of the small detachments of European troops who had done so much to pat down the present mutiny. He could not help think lug that the present system of the doable government might be simplified, but felt, at the same time, that the system had its advantages, not the least of which was the salutary check nponanienorant President of the Board of Control. (H ear. ) The present was, in his opit nion, a most unsuitable time for effecting changes in the Government of India, and believing that such alterations would at the present time be attended with risk aed danger to that empire, he felt bound to oppose the intro duction of the bill. (Hear, hear.) Mr. AYRTON said that many years ago, having gone to India prejudiced in favour of the East India Company, he had nevertheless, after a residence there of some time, coma to the conviction that government, in the name of the company, was not only a proceeding highly inexpe dient but a thing almost impossible to be continued. Dur ing the last session of Parliament, upon the first oppor tunity ho could obtain, and before the events which they now deplored had broken out, he took occasion to trey that the substitution of the Government of the Crown for that of the East India Company was absolutely necessary for the maintenance of the loyalty of the natives of India. He regarded the continuance of the government of the Coin pany as inootnpatible with the least knowledge of political ideas on the part of the natives of India. It was impos sible to conceive anything so degrading, so dishonourable to a people as to be turned over to the remnant of a joint. stock company to be managed. He admitted that it was no longer a trading company, hat still it was the remnant of one. He was gin i to find the hand of ne director was attached to the petition which they had pros )nted, and I that it came to the house like so many acts of the Com pany, under the common seal, without any personal voucher of individual responsibility. That petition had shadowed forth to the people of this country a fact which, if it were accepted, would be so strong in favour of the Company, but which was so at variance with the truth that he thought it would be an injustice to the question if the representations of the Court of Directors, or rather the East India Company, were allowed to go forth without some re mark. The Company had presumed to say that they had acquired the government of India and their power for India entirely by their own means, without any assistance what ever from the British Crown, without any assistance from the people of this country. But how could they make such an assertion when the three presidencies had been acquired by them, or rather held by them, as re garded two of them, namely, Ma iras and Bombay, by a grant from the Crown, and as to the other, namely, Cal cutta, by the joint action of their own and her Majesty's troop , . Such were the foundations of their territorial possession.. Ho could not forget that, in 1353, when they wore told an end must be pat to this anomalous state of things, the Government of India was insol vent, and that it was maintained by the profits they received from the monopoly which they enjoyed at the ex pense of the people of this country. In order to alarm the Government of that day they stated that the value of that monopoly, from the year 1813 to 1833, was an aggregate sum of 23 millions, which had been applied by them in aid of their government. But how eras that money obtained ? That sum was provided, as Mr. Grant stated, by the people of this country as fully and completely as if, year by year, it had been voted by Parliament. It was obtained.. by a monopoly which raised the price of a commodity (a neces sary of life) at the expense of every indi v id ua l i n t hi s country. Did it then become the East I n di a C ompany to a ; I n the face by th say that this country had coat lbuted nothi ng t o the eof these e e English foots glish ad vancement of India ? Was it nothing th a t th e b lockade between France and this ffo r t s countryee extending was envy and English valour, and that thus the French w ere fnromh getting had the arrogance t o t e ll the people of this t p h r e ev e e o n m te p d a y .India to Indiaws maintained country, or rather the Parliament, th a t w hil e under the los o in uf dominions America, they lp e br Imperial a in the East. Did it become the Comp any t o i nqu i re whet was the cause of oar losing America? Did not the Cone- ml their Government unaded e Com pany go to the Government and say that they wore insolvent, and asked, as a mean s o f extricating them selves from this position, that they might be allowed to send their tea to America, for it was their tea, aid the destruction of it, which first produced the American war ; and it did not become the East India Company, th ere f ore , to take credit to th emse l ves f or the maintenance of empire in India, w hil e, at the same time, America Was . being lost t o t hi s country. It has been said also that they h ad don e great things in develop ing our trade in India. Why, whatever had bean done in India within the present century h a d b een done in spite of the Company and against their m os t v i olent remonstrances. No, lot the Court of Directors still i nqu i re i nto the pest— ; let thorn rely as their safest gove rnment upon the present. He for one thought it was much to bo regretted that former governments had not felt themselves strong enough to face the powerfal influence of the Company ; he was glad, how -1 over, to find that year by year the Court of Directors hart been falling so lo ,v in public opinion that the Government were now able, in a comprehensive manner, t o d ea l w i t h an anomaly which had been a deign:le e to the country from the first hour of its existence. But it was a l leged the present was not the time for establishing the proposed change in the form of government of India. His opinion, on the con trary, was that every hour in whi c h th e change was poet poeed was pregnant with the gr ea t est misfortunes to the empire. So far from the insurrection being a cause for de lay, it was precisely a cause why the Government of the country should be made more efficient in its acti on . It was precisely now that the deficiencies of the existing system were most felt. Thegreatest value wou ld b e attached to the transference of authority from the Court of Directors to the Crown. The prinaes of India would hereafter feel themselves treated with dignity, and he could say himself that in India the greatest weight was attached to even the shadow of things. Why, anti y es regarded the right of ap peal peal to the Queen in Council as - a great political right. ludeed, as was observed by the noble lord, the very inti mation that the intermediate auth or ity o f th e com p an y had ceased to exist, would be tantamount to an army of Europeans in the heart of the country ; that was to say, supposing the change was carried out with sagacity and intelligence. But, undoubtedly, if any attempt was made to undervalue the ch ange by those who would bo inclined to act upon the ancient traditions of the Company, the proposal of the Government would not end in much. With reference to the future administration of the patronage of India, he must say he did not think the Court of Directors were entitled to any high consideration upon that ques tion. Notwiths tanding the immense amount of patronage at their disposal, the Court of Directors, acting as a body, had never appropriated a single cadetship for public purposes. He would not c a n vass the subject of the purity of Indian appointment s , He hoped that the market price of the Company's app o i n t ments was no l onger k nown i n the City of London, and that they wore now purely given. But he knew enough of past transactions, he had seen enough of the banking accounts of East In iia directors, to be able to say that th ey h ad better not cha ll enge too strict an inquiry into the past. Then he could not conceive any thing more absurd than the present system of government. They had the right hon. gentleman the President of the Board of Control at the head of the Government ; and they had a body of gentlemen sitting in Leaclenhalloitreet. The right hon. gentleman was regarded as responsible for what was done, but he had not by law the power of com municating with these gentlemen. What was the object of a council except that he who was responsible should be at liberty to canvass the opinion of every individual in the council ? But all that the sight hon. gentleman could get by law from the India Hoes° was a resolution of a court of directors distilled to him through the medium of the chairmar. The chairmen might himself be personally op preel to the opinions which he had to express, and might hare to argue in favour of a resolution of the court in opposition to his own opiaiens. He beloved that such a thing lied actually occurred. What could they think of a system in which a conned was required to assist in the edinieis`r Aion whi c h h a d no commun i ca ti on with the rr seonsi tee Minister, ant which was so managed that there aiiil•l I, eo eeeneibili re ri n an y individual director, and so that the its ill only of their deliberations was known, and that result p er h aps arr i ve d a t on ly by a majority of one ! He did not tid a l so hi g hl y o f th e perfection of human nature as t o b e li eve i n the official capacity of any man who acted in a crowd, whoacted behind a screen, And who could never be responsible. Could the house hesitate to support th e G overnmen t in putting an end to such a system ? He was glad to find that year by year the Court of Di rec t ors bad fallen in public of inion, and ha 1 now fallen so low that the Govern ment had at last determined to put an end to the anomaly, no noble lord ha 1. rightly regarded tat they ought to be put down for ever. But the Court of Directors had sounded the alarm, and had said that the present was not the time for a change. But he said that now was the proper time, and that every hour of delay was pregnant with misfortune to the empire. So long as what had bean called the mutiny, but what he called the insurrection, continued, the very cause existed why they should put an end to the present system at once. The Minister oti,oht to be able to take daily and hourly counsel on this grave sub ject. Then he fully agreed with those who said that it would have a great influence on the natives to have the govern ment directly ender the Crown. The native princes would feel exalted when they had the dignity of making treaties, not with a joint-stock company, but with the Sovereign of England. He knew, for example, that natives looked to an appeal to the Queen in Council, not as a mere trial of a legal question in a court of justice, but rather as a proceed ing which brought them directly under the surveillance of the Crown. Again, lately they had seen a prince come over to this country and offer his little girl to the Queen to be made a Christian, as the greatest offering he could make to his Sovereign. The declaration that this intermediate power—the Company—which stood between the natives of India and the Crown, had ceased to exist would be received with delight in that country. He had intended to ion at tention to a document put into the hands of members in conjunction with the petition, but would not do so now, because it would not be convenient to enter into details. He would be prepared to discuss any question of detail, and to show that the men who could write such a docu ment, whatever might be their ability, were not fit to be entrusted with the administration of the government of India unless they were brought under the direct moral i eau once of the people and Parliament of this country. The ryots of India were assessed to the last farthing. (Oh.) Well, of course he did not mean to say their last farthing liter ally : but, having left the cultivator just enough for main tenance, everything else was taken from him which con stituted property in this kingdom. The Punjaub was taxed only to the extent of one-fifth, but what was the measure of taxation upon the rest of India ? Why, he be lieved in some parts of India it was as much as two-fifths, whilst in others it was even as much as three-fifths of the gross receipts of the land. And the consequence of the low taxation of the Punjaub was no doubt its tranquillity. The expense of the government of the Punjaub exceeded its revenue, and nearly all the expenditure was defrayed out of the revenues of the rest of India. He asserted the cultivators of the soil had been in some instances reduced to the most dreadful suffering and distress. He had been informed that they had been even reduced to eat the soil which they tilled, from starvation. (Laughter.) He did not mean to say this was a normal state of existence, bat he believed very great suffering had occurred, and that many of the people of India had died of famine. He could not give the bill his unqualified adherence in all its details, but suipported the general principles of the measure. He would, for instance, be sorry to accept the arrangement made for the patronage of India. He must, yLa die not think the Court of Directors entitled to any great consideration ; for though they had at their disposal some 400 cadetships yearly—(no, no)—yes, but such had. certainly been the case in former years, sometimes more than 400, sometimes less; yet in the distribution of that patronage they had never, as a body, appropriated a single cadetship in the discharge of a public duty, or on the ground of public ser vice. (Oh, oh, and hear.) Yes, he re-asserted his former observation and defied contradiction, speaking of the di rectors as a public body. It was well known how the widows of officers who had died in the service canvassed directors from house to house, and were not always suc cessful oven in seeing the great man, far less so in the ob ject of their solicitation. He wished, instead of tho bill gividg patronage to the Council in the manner it did, it laid down how much should be given to the Indian army, and how much to the Council. There were other details into which ho would not now enter. Generally speaking, he gave his cordial assent to the measure of Government, and believed it would be found equally conducive as for mer measures which Parliament had passed to the welfare of the people of India, and that by means of it the British rule in that country would enter into a now career of use fulness. (Hear.) Sir J. ELPHINSTONE intended to oppose the bill upon two grounds ; first, because the proposed council for India must in the end become the politibaL partisans of the Go vernment of the day; and, secondly, for the much stronger reason that the present was not the time for the intro duction of such a measure. He happened to have some knowledge of Ceylon, and he could inform the house that while the East India Company were considering the desi rability of removing import duties, the Government in Ceylon were imposing a duty of 2 per cent. The moment the Government took India into their own hands, from that moment India would deteriorate. The noble lord had talked about our having governed India for 200 years, 013 we had acquired no less than three-fifths of India since the year 181.1. He felt assured that the present bill c )uld not be ad )ptel in its present shape. He trusted that the men who had so ably governed India would have a fair hearing on the second reading of the bill. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the hon. member who moved the amendment to the bill lai I much stress upon the petition so ably drawn up by the East India Company, and referred to the Company as having laid the foundation of the annexation of the Indian territory to the British dominions. He agreed with the hon. gentleman who last addressed the house that the petition recited a great deal that was creditable to the Com pany, but a public document of that kind ought not to be merely good in composition, and eloquent., but it ought t be based upon fact, and close and cogent reason. There were two assumptions which were put forward in that document. One of them, that this country owed to the East India Company the vast territory of India; and the other assumption, that the East India Company's Government was the best Government that the world ever experienced. Now, allow him to examine how far those two assumptions could be established. tWith regard to the assertion that this country was indebted to the East India Government for tho territory of India, he would stop to inquire how far that was made out, and whether India had all the value attributed to it. Tho East India Com e pfity was b ene fi ted Com pany .). ne the e policy p fullyauboundy.boyhft admittedod 3a b h i ne o eti , if tnh a just, t they ac q uisition tahhne ead c Gossl o tfaiilvet:d l inehdi Government tnni ha t Eam h saeicet a r ansn t otopttai t thli h orpinde i fsdaeitntic c hray o ob.eiu u tucweEn n t:ie t tanhr r rsiyg y eei t o o n s t 73 11 E ° , w va o s ul n i u s d ay er t a ha c t ie t e h p os ( e ie p b e t r hound to show that it was of enormous advantage to this country, He wholly disputed the doctrine that it was owing to the policy of the East India Company that India was annexed. Every person who was acquainted with h story would conceive with him thatit had been the policy of the directors i n thi s coun t ry th a t a ll wars and territo rial annexations in India should be avoided. That was a policy of the East India directors. When they wore a mere tr %ding company they held that policy ; and it was by the energy of such man as Clive, and the rapacity of such min 63 Warren Hastings that their Indian empire was carried. The Indian Government and the management of affairs in India, were placed in the hands of the company's servants, and those servants wore insubordinate, mutinous, rapa cious, and unjust. They were called upon to make remit tances home by the directors, and what was the way they did it ? By planderiug the people ? (Hear, hear.) The directors always said—be just, avoid war, avoid annexa tion—but don't forgot to send us money home. (Laughter.) ;:y the voyage by the Cape of Good Hope, four or fire months or more were occupied in the passage from Eng land, and the opportunity for insubordination and rapa city was favourable to the company's own servants. He maintained that the annexations of territory were made in the face of the orders against such a proceeding, issued by the directors not to annex territory. Parties who went out formerly as goiereor-genarals returned abounding in wealth. Clive and Warren Hastings acted up ,n that police. One p -rty was made the subject of Parliamentary attacks of a very severe kind, which were persevered in carneitly until he put an end to his own life. Those were some of the effects of the founder of their Indian empire, as he was called. Well, then, lot them take Warren Hastings. They knew the rapacity for which he was dis tinguished. They knew that this house voted that he be roe slled. They knew that the company and directors sent for him, and that the Secretary of State sent orders for his return home, which he disobeyed. They knew that when a few years afterwards, he returned, ho was made the sub w N i t o h t a o n d e 3 g g r r e e e a t o f man jt ra pacityof l thati of the day, not even Mr. Burke nor Mr. Fox, ventured to etins r tir i p n a g ss him ec l. impeachment, c n h e le r n cha throw his shield over him. By common consent he was condemned. (Hear.) Therefore it was quite a mistake ec to say that by the policy of the Indian directors the terri tory of India earns to the Crown of this country. The annexation Of India came into the hands of this country by the insubordination and mutinous conduct of the ser vants of the East India Company. That was the state of things by which the government of India passed out of the hands of the company in 1784, and a series of governors were appointed under the political influence of the execu tive Government. Now, the Governor-General of whom it might be said that India became really annexed to this country was Lord Wellesley. He went out to India. and, by the system which he'introduced, he succeeded in ren dering India of more value to this country than it ever was before. By that system the accession of territory became greet and complete, and the Indian army and all great Indian political interests were brought under the rule of the sovereignty of this country. He concurred in the policy of the East India Directors at home, and if their policy had been carried out the country would not now be in the unfortunate condition which was so much to be deplored. He said that in fairness, but he felt that it was to the good qualities which distinguished Englishmen wherever they were placed that they owed their Indian empire. It was by the subsequent policy of their Gover nor-Generals that their territorial accessions in India were to be attributed. He disputed entirely that portion of the petition which said that they owed their Indian empire to the policy of the East India Company. He now came to another point in the petition, for which credit was taken. The petitioners say, " they feel assured that the more attentively their government of India ii considered, the more light would be thrown upon India, and the more evident would become the fairness of the manner in which the company administered the eovern ment." Now, looking at that, he thought the eh b aracter which the Zest India Company bestowed upon themselves was not very modest. The East India Company was said to have originated the power of this country in India; but the power in India was consolidated in the reign of William 111., and it was not until the battle of Plessy that the company could be said to have any power in that country, when they carried Douinier. It was after that that the Government of India began to make claims upon them for a share in the territorial accession; and the company -proposed a coruprothise with the Government, offering to pay them a ' stim of money instead of that which was proposed - by Lord Clive—the. the Crown should take po'ssesiiim 'of those territorial accessions. That was not acted upon by the Government, and the compromise was entered into for the payment of the sum of money. That state of things continued for a few years, until the abuses attracted the' notice of England, and in 1783 an act was passed by Lord North, which was called " The Regulating Act." The abuses of the Exit India Company began to force themselves upon the attention of the Parliament, and the first attempt of the Government was to endeavour to control the local government and council of India. The members of the council were five, who were named in the act ; and in 1773 three of them went out. Two of the five were there at the time, one of whom was Warren Hastings. Well, then, the result of that Parliamentary contra' was dissension ;n the council. Sworal dulls took - piaci', and the eualprotuise with the supreme court was defeated, confusion reigned, and the Parliamentary control was a complete failure. The Par liament,, for the first time, interfered with the Exit India Company in 1731; but there was power also taken by the act of 1783, when there was a power given to inspect all correspondence from India. In the few years that fol lowed that`' was not found sufficient, but increased powers were taken, the result of which was Mr. Pitt's act of 1784. But even that was not found satisfactory, and committees of that house were appointed and ling reports presented to Parliament from time to time, which might b 3 found in four folio volunies—(a laugh)—comparad with which their modern blue Peeks were puny produotione. After that, seveuteen reports of committees were successively presented to Parliament- That was the Parliamentary history of that time. In 1784 Mr. Burke described the Parliamentary result of those inquiries to this effect, and it showed how far the character which the company gav e of it , a Inenietretiou was true. Mr. Burko's resolution in 1781 was to this effect, that the East India Company was found totally corrupted, and per verted from the purposes of its institution, whether of war or of peace. All their treaties had only given cause of breaches of faith, and that at home the servants of the company had obtained by nefarious practices the mastery of the body by which they ought to have been governed. When this was discovered, certain alterations were made, but the company refused to support them, and they sane tioned the scenes of robbery and plunder which had been brought out in evidence before the committees of that time. That was a faithful picture of those times, and the senti ment that had got abroad in these times of gratitude and devotion to the company was totally unknown. The evi dence before those committees showed that no civilised company on the face of the earth was more rapacious and corrupt than the East India Company, from the year 1758 to the year 1784. Then came the period when it was placed under Parliamentary control. Before that it was a mere trading concern, and open to the charges to which he had alluded, and which were damnatory of the East India Company as a political body, and he confessed he could not read without surprise the character which the East India Company had given of themselves, founded as it was since the company had been placed under the Board of Control and the Governor-General of India, and subjected to pub lic opinion the control of Parliament. All that could be said in favour cf the company dated from 1781. It was by confounding the acts of two periods, before and after Par liamentary control, that the company was enabled to take to themselves this character. Then, let them follow their Parliamentary history from 1784. Upon looking at it, it would be found that Air. Burke and Mr. Pitt very nearly annihilated the company at that time. The bill with that object passed the House of Commons, and was thrown out in the House of Lords, on account of the alarm of the King, who thought it was intended to invest his Ministers with dictatorial powers. But Mr. Pitt, after throwing out the Government of Mr. Fox, introduced another bill, the effect of which was to institute the Board of Con trol, the establishment of which totally altered the character of the company, which up to that time .. wee a trading and sovereign power. The effect of that measure was to place the company in a purely subordinate situation, and from that time the company was placed completely under that department of Govern naent. In 1793 Mr. Dundee, then President of the Board of Control, brought in another bill, the effect of which was to bring to complete perfection the system of double go vernment. That originated in 1784. That Minister re newed the charter for 30 years, and after the expiration of that period the Gover:roent of the day determined to abo lish the monopoly of the East India trade, and that was effected in 1813. That, in fact, was the first great stone struck out of the edifice of the East India Company. That he thought would not have been done if Parliament had been of opinion that a boundless debt of gratitude was due to the East India Company. But they retained the mono poly of the China trade for 20 years longer. At last Go vernment came to the conclusion that the whole of the trading powers of the company should be abblished, and that they should be prohibited from trading with India and with China, but that the sovereign and governing powers should be preserved. That was in 1833. They then lost altogether their peculiar character of traders. These changes resulted in a constant diminution of the power of the company. Again, in 1833, when the questi on was re opened, nothin g was sa id o f th e sentimental view of the question. The whole of the trade of China and India was thrown open, and the company then obtained a r enewe d lease of 20 y ears , en di ng i n 1853, during which the com pany was the mere ghost of the former company. Then came another renewal of the charter in 1853. There were circumstunces in operation at that time favourable to the company. The previous twenty years had been tranquil, and there was as improved spirit, in consequence of the vigilance of Parliament ; but, even under these favour able circumstances, Parliament did not renew the charter without a farther diminution of power. One-third of the directors were to be the nominees of the Crown, and no further change was then insisted upon, the principle being that a joint-stock company having a common fund to administer should allow those who had an interest in it a voice in its management. It was only reasonable that those who had an interest in the fund should have some control over its management. The constituency who elected the present Court of Directors was a mere extended body, having no sort of connection with the affdrs and interests of India. It wag nothing more than the spectre of the original body, who carried on trade with India and China. The fallacy which pervaded the petition of the East India Company was speaking of that company as if it were a body one and endurable—as if it wore unchanged in character and functions, while there was as great a change as had taken place in the constitution between the Heptarchy and the reign of Queen Victoria. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) It was the merest and most transparent sophism—it was offoling an insult to the understanding to attempt to palm upon this house ae guments of that nature. The next question they had to consider was, whether the present state of things called upon the house to acquiesc is the independent con het , nce if the EaA India Company. From the year 1793, and before that date, the East India Company had been renewed for periods of ten years, (Hear, hear.) In 1853 Parliament did not seem inclined t ) grant another 20 years' lease, and the manner in which the company was continued was, that its existence was prolonged until Parliament should otherwise determine. No .v, practically, every law was in this form; even the Habeas Corpus Act it se lf ex i-t e d on l y un til Parliament otherwise enacted, and there was not a single privilege which was not held upon a similar understanding. There fore, the East India Company might be considered as if its term was to be renewed from time to time in perpetuity. That was practically the result, until Parliament should determine otherwise. Ho (the Chancellor of the Exch equer) entirely concurred in the p ro p os ition which had been laid down by his noble friend, that there was no ground for implying any blame to the East India Corn pally as to the origin of the East India Company. He did not believe it was possible to show that any vigilance on the part of the East India Company could have guarded against the recurrence of these disasters, or that when that mutiny occurred, it would have been possible to sup pose that any measures would have been more proper or more effectnal than those which had been adopted. But this he did say, that the present state of things lea I brought forcibly under the view of the Executive Govern ment—and he heartily shared in that conviction—the clumsiness, and inefficiency and defectiveness of the whole Government of India. It was not in times of tranquillity that the stronger or weaker parts of a system of govern ment were detected, It was only when a stress of bed weather came about that ono was able to try the firmness of the ship. He could not, therefore, understand the difficulty which hon. gentlemen felt in comprehending how institutions should be for a certain time stable, but that when a crisis occurred a Gov e r nmen t s h ould come forward and ask for a change in their institutions. He confessed he did not understand how, when the Home Government was creates! expressly by the authority of Parliament, the East India Company should still ba con sidered an independent power. They were the breath of the nostrils of Parliament ; they had no power but what Parliament conferred upon them, which was circum scribe l by innu nerable restrictions and limitations. There was the Board of Control, and there was also the Court of Directors. These two bodies acted and re-acted upon each other in a manner which was accurately defined by Act of Parliament. There was nothing which Parliament might not at any moment remodel. Well, these authorities were embarrassed by needless delays ; they were subject to fre quent procrastinatious ; they divided responsibility; they threw obscurity upon the seat of power. (Hear, hoar.) Whenever Parliament coufsrred power, it also required responsibility. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would venture to state the converse of the pro p osition, and maintain, that whenever Parliament exacted responsibility, it should also concise trate power- (Hear.) Why had Par liament so much difficulty in these questions ? Something went wrong; recourse was had to the President of the Board of Control. He Bahl, " Oh, the matter has been referred to the Court of Directors, or to the Governor-General." They said the matter has been referred to the President of the India Board, ho cannot give a clear answer. (Laughter, and hear, hear.) Th e y m i g ht p er h aps say th ere was a dif ference of opinion between them. Then a discussion arose, ant the opportunity for action was lost. The rarliament failed to grasp what it sought to hold, and without enter taining any unkind feeling against the hon. geatleman, the chairman, who had a seat iu the house, or the vice-chair man of the board (Sir F. Currie), he must say that their disputes had not been of a satisfactory description,: and he begged to say what he did with all sincerity, but he could not conceive that it would be more satisfactory to Parlia ment if they were able distinctly to fix upon the e*cutive authority in this country the clearest responsibility of any act affecting the Indian Government. Upon these grounds he conceived that the present system might be abolished, and that our Parliamentary authority should be established in Indian affairs upon the ground laid down by the First Minister. The right hon. gentleman defended the proposed council from the charge made by the hon. member for Huntingdon, namely, that they would not be in the same independent position as the directors ; and he then pro ceeded to show that in making the changes explained by Lord Palmerston there would be no interference with the existing patronage in India. If that course should be ob jected to it was a mattes which could be hereafter consi dered. Well, but then there remained the question of the cadetships. He thought that, looking at the provisions of the bill, it could not be said that it conferred any increased patronage on the Government. He could not coincide with the views of those who said that the Government would take away the power of the directors merely for the pur pose of having the distribution of patronage in its awn hands. He believed that at present the practice of the Court of Directors was to divide the patronage among the individual members of the court, and by the proposal of the Government, if it were agreed to, the mem bers of the new council would be, in like manner, •a trusted with the distribution of patronage in connection with the President of the Council. That was, in fact, the only change as to the distribution of patronage which this measure would effect. There would be, as he had stated, no change in the mode of appointing persons to the civil service; the highest offices in India would contemn:, to be, as at present, in the hands of the Government, and the cadetships would be divided between the President of the Council and the members of that council, just as they were at present, among the members of the Court of Di rec t ors. It could not, therefore, be said that this measure made any very great change in the present mode of distributing patronage ; but he could not conclude hi s o b servations on this subject without saying that he could not help de preeating the idea that the East India Company should be maintained merely for the purpose of distributin g pa tronage in a particular form. He sh ou ld w i sh to sea all appointments in India distributed among persons who wished to exercise the power entrusted to theinefor the benefit of the people of India. (Hear, hoar.) An I he confessed ho could not hear without the deepest regret the patronage of India talked of as a heritage of the people of England, without any reference to the benefit and welfare of the people of India. Indeed, the distribution of that patronage among a certain section of the people of Eng land %yes talked of as a matter right ; while, of course, the interests of the people of India were left entirely out of contideration. There had been many arguments urged against the bill of a similar nature, but he could not be lieve but th a t th e h ouse would test the question at issue onits own merits, and by looking to the groat olsjeet Which all ought to h Ivo in vie s namsls, as to hew ludiam go virmuent might be beet adniiiiistered in future —and that they would, not be turned aside by the dilatory argu ments of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Basing) in support of his amendment. The hen. gentleman had shrunk from meetin g th e mo ti on f or l eave t o i ntroduce the bill by a direct negative. What he asked the house to affirm was, that the present was not a n expedient time to m a k e an y a lteration in the government of India. Well, he could have understood the hon. gentle man if he bad argued the question on its merits —if he had said that the present govt rnment of India was a good ono, and that it was meant to be coeval with the British consti tution. Re could understand an argument like that, but he weld nvt. linderetawl a gelAtlalliall, Coming forward and saying, " Hero is a government upon which condemnation is proposed to be passed, and what I ask of Parliament is to postpone its decision on the question submitted to it." Why, nll that hal passed in Parliament that night would be known throughout the whole world. The hon. gentle man did not say that t' a, arguments against the existing system were not true; but he simply asked the house to postpone its decision. Well, he would ask whether even in the interest of the East India Company itself there could be a more inconvenient course than that they were asked to adopt ? Here was a bill brought forward by his noble friend at the head of the Government, and who had ably explained all its main features. The friends and advocates of the East India Coinpany had not the courage to say that the arguments against the existing system were not true. They would not say that that Government should be maintained even for a few years to come. They would not defend any of its anomalies; but many said that this was not the time. Arguments of that sort could lead to no satisfactory result. (Hear, hear.) They did not place the company iu a better or a more secure position—they did not contribute to the security or the strength of the Government in India —and he believed that the house would not consent upon such grounds to the amendment of the hon. gentleman the member for Huntingdon. In deed, apart from these reasons, it would be a most unusual course for the house to - refuse permission to the Govern ment to lay a bill before it which had reference to one of the greatest questions of the day, and particularly when that bill might, if the Government had chosen, have • been introduced in the House of Lords without asking the permission of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) Any mem ber of the Government might have laid the bill on the table of that house without asking the consent of Parlia ment : but the Government felt that on such a subject it was due to the Legislature to proceed at every stage of his question with the fullest- deliberation. That house had the privilege no doubt of refusing leave to introduces bill if it thought proper, but he would remind hon. mem bers that it was a privilege which ought to be used with moderation, and he hoped th a t upon th a t occas i on it would not be used to refuse to the Governmentpermission simply to lay upon the table of the house a bill affecting large and important interests. They did not ask the house at that ' stage to assent to the principle of that measure; all that they wished was to lay it upon the table, in order that its principle and its provisions might he. subsequently fully discussed and considered ; and he (the Chencellor of the Exchequer) could not but believe Uiat , looking at the greet interests at stake, the house %WM' permit a bill to be in treduced for improving the malhinery . by which the admi nistration of an immense empire was in future to be car ried on. (Hear, hear.) In fast, the principle of the mea sure, as explained by his noble friend, had been wholly untouched, if not completely misunderstood. The robe friend had said that if the Gaveeninci.t. did not believe that the hill would improve the Government of India, they would not have introduced it. The Government further said that it left the whole of the internal administration of India precisely where it was. It did not make any 'al teration in the powers of the Governor-General, in the powers of the governors of presidencies, in the position of the civil servants in India, in finance administration, in collection of the revenue, or the administration of justice in the courts of law. In these respects the administration in India was left entirely unfettered. What his Noble friend (Lord Palmerston) asked was simply to consolidate and concentrate the Government of India in this, and by means of that change to simplify and render more effective the whole administration of India so far as such a change could effect that object. Such a change Would in hie belief, lealito a greater concentration of power in India., and would give a reality of strength to all the de partments of Governmen' in that country, which could not fail to have the most beneficial effect, while as to the time at which the measure was introduced, he would. merely say, that it was upon great emergencies that such measures were called for, and that this measure ought to be tried on its o n merits. (Cheers.) Mr. MANGLES said he had intended to confine his obser vations to the point whetter this was a proper time to bring forward such a measure ; but after listening to the very able speech of the right hon. gentleman, he could not help making a few observations on some parts of that speech which he confessed had surprised him. He was well aware of the great historical knowledge and attainments of the right hon. gentleman, and yet there were some statements in his speech so glaringly incorrect and o widely different from the real facts, that he felt compelled to answer them. The right lion. gentleman had denied that at present India was of any direct advantage to this country. Now it was impossible for any on, who knew the facts to deny that England derived great and immediate advantages from its connection with India under the existing form of government. A very large sum, varying from three to five millions annually, was sent from India to this country, not as tribute, but in the payment of dividends on the stock of the company, in the payment of pensions to retired civil servants of the Indian Government, in the payment of officers of the Indian army on half-way, and in addition large sums on account of the Queen's troops, not an the transmission of stores. Probably, upon an average, d less than five millions yearly were sent from India for these purposes, and could it be said then that the present connection of Great Britain end India was of no immediate advantage ? The right honourable gentleman had denied that India had been conquered by the East India Company, and had challenged the advocates of the company to show that they had any bright pages in their annals until they came uuder Parliamentary control. An honourable gentleman had quoted some bitter words from the speeches of Mr. Burke oa the occasion of well known impeachments; but he (Ur. Mangles) would iu reply read some P assages from Lord Macaulay's " Memoirs of Clive and Hastings," in which the words were of a more sacchariao character. (Great laughter.) Thelhon gentleman proceeded to quote from tho memoirs referred to, far - the purpose of showing that, at cucce isivo periods from 176.5. both Clive and Hastings had interfer e d t o put dOwn abuses; arc' there could be no reforms without a b uses—gtugh ter)—that those great statesmen had introduced reforms into Indian administration which had alerwards been fully carried out by Munro, F.l' phinstone, Cornwallis, Metcalfe, and others, long before FIX' Hainaut had any control ever the Government of India; and, bringing down the history of the administration of that com pany to the period when the Indian and the Mahomedail equally regard with gratitude and respect the statue of Lord Bentinek, he contended that there were at least as ma my bright pages in the history of the East India Company before it was subject to Parliamentary control as there had been si..co. (Hear hear.) The government had very inap propriately brought forward this bill during the mutiny- He was no alarmist ; he believed the mutiny would be put dos n ; but at present the whole province of Oude was up in arms, and many other parts of India were in an unsettled state, and any proposition for a change, under such circum stances, must have a bad effect on the people of India. It? - honourable member for Davenport had spoken with just warmth against those who tailed for an indiscriminate mas sacre of the whole people of India, and very properly de feuded the to ep.mte conduct of Lord Canning. But those were the very men who petitioned against the rule of Lord - Canning and the government of the East India CompallY , Nirou!d not the people of India naturally say that if a change were made in accordance with the demands of the petitioners, that that change would be detrimental to the interests of the people of India. (Hear, hear.) He would admit frankly that the Government of India went too far in former days in sanctioning the abominations of the Hindoo religion ; but ho thought persons were novi disposed to go further in the opposite direction. Both sys tems were bad. Formerly Hindoo superstitions were not only countenanced but actually paid for —prayers for rain, for ex" • ample—by the British Government. Much of this has been.. altered ; and although we were bound to withdraw undutiful' wrong concessions, yet the people of India should not be led to believe that we were not only going to withdraw undue con cessions, but to make religious aggressions upon them. The pulpit, and the platform had already done much to alarm the people of India on that point. The Church Missionary Society in a paper which they, had lately issued deprecated the exist ing system of tolerationand hoped thattho existing neutrality would no longer centintik. And now, when the 'Government called for a change, he entertained strong fears that the pro position would fill the'minds of the Indian people with alarm, lest it should have the effect of bringing them under a rule loth tolerant than what they experienced un. er the East India Company. (Hoar.) - Mr. ROEBUCK moved, the adjournment of the debate to Monday, and th e motion was agreed to. GRAND JURIES (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion of Mr. FITZGERALD, leave was given to bring in a bill to amend the laws relating to the presentment of public money by grand juries in Train& HARBOURS OF REFUGE. • Mr. BENTINCK moved that the select committee on liar; bourn of refuge do consist of 22 members, and that Admits' Duncombe and Sir James Elphiustone be added, He cool' plained that as the committee was at present constitute d there was net a nautical mania it. Mr. WILSON thought the motion was unnecessary, the committee had new ly finished its labours. It had sat the wh o l e o f l ast session, and was expected to make i,. e report by East er. H e admitted that Lard John Hay, e was a nautical member had met with au accident, and "Z; noble lord did not speedily recover, as he hoped he would, _ would then arr ange w i th the hon. gentleman opposite for th e appointment of some o th er nautical Member on the c° l32. mittee. After some discussion, Mr. WILSON said ho wou'd not, seeing the opinion of the house to be in favour of the motion, further oppose it. The motion was then agreed to. • The hon.° then adjourned at a quarter to one o'clock. CRYSTAL PALACE.—ONE SHILLING} DAT' FridaY; Feb, 12 . —Admissions on payment, 341 ; ditto ht season tickets, 179 total vi,itors. 520. 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