The Sun. — London, England, 1860-08-11 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.) The LORD CIIAN.CELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clock. The Forest of Dean Central Railway (No. 2) Bill was earl a second time. THE CLERGY AT WILLESDEN. The Bishop of LONDON presented a petition from the clergy and inhabitants of Willesden, in the county of Mid dlesex, complainin g of the smallness of the salaries of the clergy, and they prayed the house to pass such measures as would insure an increase of stipends to the clergy out of the church property belonging to the district. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. Earl GRANVILLE, with respect to the question of the noble earl the other evening as to the business the Government intended to proceed with, said the Go vernment intended to abandon the Lien on Freights Bill. He much regretted that course, because it was a most important measure, but if they thought proper to insist on the bill going forward he should be ready to proceed. With respect to the other bills he could not speak positively, but as regarded the Landlord and Tenant Ireland Bill, it was most certainly the intention of the Government to go on with it. Lord REDESDALE said he had been told by a person intimately acquainted with the proceedings of the other house, that if they continued the consideration of the esti mates at the present rate, they would get through them:in about two years. (Laughter.) After a few words from the Marquis of CLANRICARDE, Lord REDESDALE protested against the needless waste of the present session. Her Majesty, he said, had shown that she considered them excessively slow, and instead of waiting for the close of the ses sion, had taken her own holiday, and had gone off to Scotland. The question was not how many days re- mained for their lordships, but as many noble lords had left town, it would be seriously prejudicial to the public service if important measures were pressed forward at the present time. After a short conversation, in which the Duke of Argyll, Lord Monteagle, and Lord Denman took part, the subject dropped. POOR. RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL. Lord WODEHOUSE moved that as regards the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill, inasmuch as the Poor Law Commis- sion in Ireland will, if not renewed, expire at the close of the present session of Parliament, the circumstances which require legislation on this subject appear to this house to be of such real urgency as to render the immediate consideration of the same necessary. The noble lord took the opportunity of referring to many clauses of the bill, and remarked that, with regard to clause 4, . _ - which prohibited a man occupying a quarter of an acre of land from receiving outdoor relief, ha did not think that it would be desirable at the present period to press that enactment on their lord- ships if they had any objection to it, but he thought it very desirable that the third clause, which referred to placing _ _ infants out to nurse, should be retained in the bill. Lord MONTEAGLE said ho had great objection to the third clause, because it was in effect breaking the tie be tween parent and child. He thought the clause ought to be withdrawn, at least for the present. _. _ The Earl of WESTMEATH said if the clause referred to by the noble lord were withdrawn, the affair would become a job. He thought a proper place ought to be pro vided in the workhouses for the reception of infants. Lord REDESDALE said he objected greatly to certain clauses being placed in continuance bills, and next session he should move a standing order to meet his objection. He could not think that either the third or fourth clauses, which created quite a new system, were such as ought to be proceeded with on the ground of urgency. He had no ob jection to the second clause, and he should move an amend ment to secure the 'continuance of the act till next session, but excluding the third and fourth clauses from the bill. Earl GRANVILLE did not think that the bill was technically what was called a continuance bill. The question was then put, when their lordships divided, and the numbers were— Content Non-content 34 Majority for the amendment —4 The bill was then read a second time, the objectionable clauses being omitted. CHANCERY EVIDENCE COMMISSION BILL. On the motion of Lord St. LEONARDS, this bill was read a second time, the Standing Orders having been sus pended. THE MILITIA BILL. This bill having been read a third time, a conversation took place, on the question being put that the bill do pass, as to whether there should not be an alteration in the ages fixed for those who should be liable to the ballot. Earl GRAN VILLE said, that the subject had been well considered at the War-office, and it was deemed advisable that the ages fixed upon in the bill should not be disturbed —namely, from 18 to 30 years. The bill was then passed. GAS (METROPOLIS) BILL. Their lordships went into committee on this bill, which passed, through committee. EUROPEAN FORCES (INDIA) BILL. The Duke of ARGYLL moved the suspension of the standing order, that this bill might be read a second time. He tkought the motion would receive no opposition from their lordships. This bill was not for the entire abolition of the local army, because after the provisions of this bill came into existence there would still be large bodies of native troops. The simple effect of the bill was that no European troops could be enlisted for exclusive service in India. That would be undoubtedly a great change, but the effect of it had been exaggerated by various distinguished military and civil authorities in India. In the earlier portions of the history of the East India Company there was no restriction as to the enlistment of European troops, but since the year 1773 various restrictions had been imposed by Parliament, and the truth was, that for a long - period very little importance had been attached to the service of the European troops. So far back as 1788, Mr. Pitt had approved of the amalga• illation of the Indian with the European forces. In 1796 there were only two regiments in each presidency, and that was very much the state of things until recent times. The opinion of Lcfd Canning was that it would be impossible to maintain a local army in India, or to get British officers in sufficient numbers to command it. It had been objected that the bill had been brought forward at a period of the session when it was impossible adequately to discuss its pro visions. The authorities in favour of the bill were so nu merous, and the matter had already undergone so much in vestigation and discussion, that this objection should not prevail. There was nothing in the measure to diminish the inducements to young men of enterprise and ambition to go to India, nor was there anything iu the bill calculated to withdraw from India any of those sources of strength and intelligence which had shed on our national character im perishable renown. (Hear, hear.) The Earl of ELLENBOROITGII said the Government of which he had been a member was deeply indebted to both armies for the manner in which, shoulder to shoulder, in various parts of India, for two years they vindicated the honour of their country. (Hear.) Ho was deeply indebted to both armies. They both served their country equally well, and it was since his time those jealousies had grown up which had been productive of such mischievous conse quences. He still adhered to the opinion he had expressed before the commission, that there should be equality be tween both armies. The noble duke talked of amalgama tion, but the bill was not meant to amalgamate the two armies, but to extinguish the local army. That was the right object of the bill. (Hear.) The only amalgamation that would take place under the bill would be to admit into the number of the Queen's forces the 3,000 bad men who had deserted their colours, and thus punish vicariously those who had preserved their loyalty. (Hear.) He was devoted to the service of India, and he viewed this proposed change with the deepest apprehension. He could not hope to change the views of Government, but it was a gratifica tion to him to be able to express his sense of the value of the Indian army, and his deep gratitude for their services. Earl DE GREY and RIPON said, that whetherright or wrong in this measure, the Government heel an honest con viction that its adoption would tend to the benefit of India. The Duke of CAIiIBRID GE, before the discussion closed, and from the position he had the honour to occupy, felt bound to make a few observations. And he did so with great doubt and hesitation after what had fallen from his noble friend (the Earl of Ellonborough), because the con clusions he arrived at were entirely different from his. He (the Duke of Cambridge) had had many opportunities of hearing this important question discuse,ed on various grounds, and, after giving it the fullest and most careful consideration, after taking the opinions of many military men on the subject, and especially his noble and gallant friend who sat near him (Lord Clyde)—he certainly came to the conclusion that the time had arrived when it was expedient that a change should be made. (Hear, hear.) His noble friend the noble earl regretted that the great change proposed now to be made was not postponed ; but whatever difference of opinion existed as to the mode, there was none whatever as to the necessity of settling it at once. (Hear, hear.) It was impossible any longer to postpone it; indeed it would be dangerous to do so, because the feeling of jealousy, which he regretted to say now existed, would g in Z t i:ereasing. He could not see ho w it wa s possibl e t o two armies in India under a different and separate authority.l As lone. as that country belonged to the E as t tnedatameeouninid,,ei,r theny it was ' a different thing; but the momeat ho v authority of the Crown, he could no t . , comprehend should not European troops of different descriptions come under th e au th or i ty o f one h ead. If there was a local f orce there, no question would arise as to the authority of the Crown, and how it could b e diff eren t i n th e present case he w as at aloes to understand. His noble friend (the Duke of Argyll) alluded to of the Horse Guards, but it ve what was called a jealousy a l s t n y o a t the Horse Guards, but the authority of the Crown. s idle to suppose that a certain portion of the army in India lad ou ght ae to be in a posi haxivsetas regarded lion that the Queen's authority sho them, The Commander-in-Chief would no more au thority conferred on him by this bill, farth er than what their lordships wished to see he should possess over troops at homc, and as he had noth in g whateve r to do withpro motions or appointments in that array, it would be the same with that in India. The same system which now existed in this country was intended to be carried out as regarded India. He hoped, therefore, no obstruction to the pas sing, of the measure would be offered. Hear.) He assured the house there was no intention on the part n- the. home authorities to interfere with the decisions of the Governor- General in India, directly or indirectly. (Hear, hear.) the Earl of DERBY theught that the effect of this measure, and the measures that would result from it, were such as to occasion considerable anxiety and apprehension, because the prospects before us were very uncertain, and the intentions of her Majesty's Government were rather vague. With regard to the amalgamation there had been offered the most conflicting opinions ; but it was singular that almost all the officers connected with the line who had given any opinion on the subject had been in favour of the amal gamation. He did not for a moment dispute, on the con trary, he contended for the necessity of concentrating in one department authority over the whole of her Majesty's forces in India ; but this might be done without amalga mating those forces. With regard to the discipline of the troops, he contended that her Majesty's Commander-in- Chief in this country shonld exercise supreme authority ; but with regard to orders in the field, the undivided autho rity and responsiblity should rest with the Governor- General, and subordinately, but in concurrence with him, with the Commander-in-Chief in India. (Hear.) He repu diated altogether the jealousy entertained respecting the Horse Guards. No one was less desirous than the illus trious duke of absorbing into his own hands the patronage of the army. The noble duke (the Duke of Argyll) who introduced the question with singular ability and clearness, argued as if they had only two alternatives before them, amalgamation or the continuance of the status quo, with an overwhelming India force. He (the Earl of Derby) thought there was great advantage in having a local force acquainted with the language and habits of the people, at the same time he fully agreed with the illustrious duke as to the necessity of preserving discipline by the constant infusion of fresh blood from this country. On this subject he had often con versed with the illustrious duke himself. But the bill be fore the house was not for the amalgamation of the two armies, but the extinction of the local army. Then, as to the staff corps, nothing definite had been stated as to the mode in which that body was to be organised and worked. The ques tion of reliefs had been referred to, and the noble duke ob served that there would be no difficulty in this respect. But if instead of having 20,000 troops, you have 80,000, you would require 30,000 more to compensate for those con stantly returning home and going out to supply the defi ciency. There were considerable difficulties in the way of amalgamation, arising from the different character of the two services. There was, for example, the system of pro- motion by merit, and that by purchase on which the Go- vernment had given no information. He could not help thinking that it would operate to prevent a man entering into the army when he would find that it was just possible he might pass a third of his military life in India. He thought they were making an experiment of some danger in the proposed bill, and one from which they could not recede. He certainly felt that after the strong expression of opinion in the other house of Parliament, and the strong expression of opinion also on the part of the illustrious duke, he should shrink from the responsibility of offering opposi tion to this bill, and would leave to the Government the re sponsibility of this measure. (Hear.) Lord CLYDE was received with general cheering, but spoke in so low a tone that it is galite impossible to pretend to give a full report. He said his experience in India had entirely convinced him of the absolute necessity of having only one European army, moveable as one force, maintained at one point of discipline, and acting, as it were, with one soul. On his arrival on one occasion at a station, a night's journey from Simla, the Adjutant-General of Artillery, a most distinguished officer, addressed the chief of the Staff, and asked what the general was going to do. Ho said the general was going to speak to the men. The officer said they were past that. This anecdote showed what was the discipline of a European local force. He had never before seen troops in such a state that they would not listen to their officers ; but to avoid the great evil of employing other European troops against them, he was obliged to form a commission, before whom the men appeared and stated their grievances. (Hear.) There were many other cir cumstances which came to his knowledge and made him arrive at the conclusion that for the character and honour of the country it was necessary there should be but one army and one discipline. (Cheers.) He entirely concurred in all the opinions which the illustrious duke had expressed, and it was almost painful to him to disagree with the noble earl, of whose extreme kindness he was deeply sensible (the Earl of Ellenb ,rough), when the noble earl said this mea sure ought to be postponed. The business must be settled at once. (Hear.) To remove the jealousies and suspicions which he must admit existed, it was very desirable that some decision should be arrived at, and that the opinion of their lordships and of Government should be no longer left in doubt. (Cheers.) Earl GRANVILLE, after paying a compliment to the noble and gallant lord who had just addressed their lox d ships, said he thought one of the great advantages of the abolition of the East India Company would be the removal of the great anomaly of the existence of two armies in one of her Majesty's dependencies, differing altogether from each other in composition and discipline. The noble earl then proceeded to remark upon several of the views which had been put forward by the noble earl (Earl Derby) who had complained that this bill had been brought forward without Government submitting to Parliament the whole of their scheme. Now he (Earl Granville) thought that Go vernment had acted wisely in leaving the details to be set tled when Parliament had approved of the principle of the bill. He beliaved, upon the authority of letters from India, and upon the experience they had gained upon this subject, that it was of the greatest importance this question should be settled without delay. (Hear, hear.) The bill was then read a second time. TRANSPORT OF FORCES TO CHINA, The Earl of ELLENBORGUGH put a question to her Majesty's Government as to whether any estimate had been received of the cost of transport for the force to be em ployed in India. The Duke of SOMERSET said that the cost of tran ports hired at home amounted per month to £159,932. The cost of those taken up in India amounted to £69,500, and of those taken up in China, £32,000. Including coal and victualling, the cost from Jane Ist was about £161,000 per month. The entire cost at the present rate would be about £2,000,000 a• year. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGII expressed his surprise at that enormous expenditure. The Tramways (Ireland) Bill was read a third time. The Ecclesiastical Commission, &c. Bill went through committee. The Poor-law Continuanco Bill was read a second time, after which the house adjourned, at a few minutes past 12 o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at half-past twelve o'clock, the house not having seen formed before. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following bills were read a third time and passed : Beauchamp Almshouses Estate, Domvile's Estate, Duke of Norfolk's Estate, Earl of Longford's Estate, and Gius tiniani's Naturalisation. SUPPLY. The house went into committee of supply. On the vote of £100,440 for the maintenance of the Royal parks, Colonel DUNNE said that he drew the attention of the house yesterday to the enormous taxation for purely metro politan.purposes. It was too late this session to bring the matter before the house, but he gave notice that next ses sion he would do so. In the meantime he would move that the vote be reduced by £lB,OOO. Sir J. SHELLEY referred to the observations of the First CommiSsioner of Works yesterday, who blamed hon. members who had differed from him in regard to the Ride in Kensington-gardens, and he accused these hon. members for the part they took in the agitation on this subject, of being influenced by a desire of popularity. He had also to complain of the attack which the hon. member had made on the vestries of the metropolitan parishes in reference to this matter. Now, from the position in which the metro polis was placed, the vestries were the guardians of the public interest. He did not consider that in those remarks the right hon. gentleman was likely to acquire much popu larity for himself or for the Government of which he was a member. He very much doubted whether the right hon. gentleman, who was cap-in -hand to the Town Council of Hertford, would treat the expression of an opinion from the constituency of that town, which had the .honour to return him to Parliament, with so much disregard. He denied that the agitation in the metropolis on this subject was one-sided, for the aristocratic vestry of St. George's had memorialised against the altera tions in the gardens, which they called " Cowper's Folly." (Laughter.) He also adverted to the mode in which memo rials in favour of the alteration in the gardens had been got up, and read an advertisement which appeared in the Times addressed to persons who wished to sign a memorial to the Chief Commissioner of Works on the subject. The adver tisement stated where the memorial was lying, and said if it were inconvenient to persons to attend there they might forward their cards or signatures by post. He strongly protested against signatures obtained in such a manner. With respect to the ride itself, if it was to ho a continuation of Rotten-row it must be widened to a consi derable extent, and he would ask the right hon. gentleman if he considered that a gravel road of such width would be an improvement to Kensington-gardens. And yet in order to render it a eafe resort for equestrians it must be so widened, He thoUght, also, that they should have some explanation respecting the result realised by the sum of £17, 11 00 voted for the Serpentine. He saw on the grounds fountains without water—or figures holding water cans— and unless the water was made to ascend it could not flow through these cans. He would further wish for some state ment as related to the suth of £lB,OOO for the drainage of Richmond-park. Mr. B. COCHRANE expressed a hope that Storey's Gate would be thrown open, and strongly condemnied the people generally being taxed to so large an extent for me tropolitan purposes. After some remarks from Mr. SMITH and Mr. BAnnow, Mr. AYRTON said he would prefer seeing the matter placed in the hands of some metropolitan body, who would be the beet able to manage these parks, and would relieve THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, AUGUS r 11, 1.866►. the Government from the trouble of dealing with them in future. Mr. HENLEY was opposed to the opening of Storey's Gate. Lord FERMOY said he thought that in respect to the parks, too much consi aeration had been shown for those who rode on horseback. If any agitation on this question had arisen, kis right hon friend (Mr. Cowper) was the cause of it, because he was the innovator, and broke down what he (Lord Fermoy) thought a good custom, by depriving those who were unable to ride of a portion of the gardens. The right hon. gentleman had commenced a dangerous practice in appealing to the public on this subject, a game at which two can play. In the park he had seen the green men taking the cards of those who were in favour of the views of his right hon. friend. With respect to the vestries which had been attacked, it should be remembered that they were the emanators of public opinion, and created by the elective element which the party of the right hon. gen tleman were generally supposed to look up to. He con cluded by hoping that this ride would be only temporary. After a few words from Mr. Alderman COPELAND and Mr. WILLIAMS, Mr. COWPER denied that he intended any disrespec to hon. members or the metropolitan vestries. He was satisfied that the vestries of St. George's and Marylebone were composed of most respectable bodies when they discusssed matters which properly be longed to them. He had been a member of St. George's vestry, and he certainly must say the gentlemen forming it were most respectable and most practical men. What he wished to remind the house of in regard to the parks was that the vestries had nothing whatever to do with them. With respect to the popularity of this ride he found that there were more walkers in favour of it than horse riders. He made it his business to see what the ob jections were against the ride, and he considered that there was only one deserving attention, viz, that this portion of the park from a solitude had been converted into a scene of bustle and animation. In regard to that he would merely repeat what he had said yesterday, that he considered pub licity and not privacy was the more appropriate charac teristics of a park. As regarded innovation, his prede- cessors in office had also made many innovations, and when it was proposed to throw open the whole of Regent's Park to the public a great outcry was raised, but none of the evils that were predicted had occurred. He repeated what he had already stated, that he merely asked for the vote temporarily, in order to see how the alteration would work, and he reminded hon. members that the ride would be closed to persons on horseback at the end of the session. With reference to the Serpentine, the plan of Mr. Hawksley was being carried out, and he believed the evils connected with it arose merely from stagnation ; conse quently, if a current were kept up, and water constantly sup plied from the well, a natural process would result and the foul matter would be oxygenised. As related to Richmond park, abort two-thirds of it required draining, which was done at a cost of £6los. per acre, under the superintendence of Mr. Josiah Park, subject to the instructions of the bailiff. After some further discussion the committee divided-- For the amendment l5 Against it Majority Mr. A. SMITH moved that the item of £9,629 for Bat tersea Park be reduced by £2,600 for flowers, propagating pits, &c. Mr. COWPER thought the house would not object to the expense for flowers, and alluded to the dissatisfac tion felt when-the shrubs were removed from Hyde Park. Mr. JOSEPH LOCKE said that he did not object to the £3OO for flowers, but he was strongly opposed to an expenditure of £2,300 for the erection of a steam engine and other apparatus for supplying water to the park. Mr. A. SMITH consented to withdraw his amendment, and that of Mr. Locke's was substituted. Mr. COWPER defended the vote, which he considered was not too large for the purpose to which the money was to be applied, and he would provide for its not being extra vagantly expended. The house divided— . For the amendment Against Majority —24 Sir J. SHELLEY considered that a larger sum than was necessary was about being voted for the drainage of Rich mond-park, and he moved that it be reduced by £4OO. After a few words from Sir G. LEWIS, the amendment was negatived without a division. The general vote for the parks was then put and agreed to. On thevote of £5,000 for the Probate Court and Registries, Sir J. SHELLEY objected to expenditure of that amount on the premises in Doctor's-commons, which were in so dilapidated a condition. Mr. COWPER said that the accommodation which would be provided for as regarded the courts in question would be only temporary. The vote was for lighting, heat ing, and other purposes connected with different courts in the kingdom, and only a small portion of it was applied to the courts to which the hon. baronet alluded. The vote was agreed to. On the vote of £3,655 for the ordinary maintenance and repairs of British Embassy houses, Mr. WILLIAMS moved a reduction of £650 from the vote of £3,250 for the Embassy House at Therapia. Some irregular discussion ensued, which was interrupted, it being 10 minutes to 4 o'clock. The house then suspended its sitting. The house resumed at 6 o'clock. COMPENSATION TO MR. GEDDES. Sir G. BOWYER asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps had been taken, or were in tended to be taken, by Government to induce the Govern ment of the United States to compensate Mr. Geddes, her Majesty's Consul, for the loss of property at Greytown. Lord J. RUSSELL replied that the transactions which had taken place were in consequence of hostilities under taken against the United States; and it was the opinion of the law officers of the Crown that there was no title to compensation under the circumstances. GAME LICENSES. Lord NAAS complained of some extraordinary mistake which had been committed in the framing of the Game Licenses Bill. Rabbits were exempted in the English act, whereas in the Irish act the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made game of them. (Laughter.) This was extraor dinarily unfortunate, as rabbits were very numerous in Ire land ; and he wished to know whether a clause could be in serted in any bill before the house to remedy the omission ? The noble lord asked whether the Government would in troduce a bill for the special purpose. Mr. DEASY replied that the circumstances were acci dental, and that a remedy would be introduced into a bill now before the house. THE NATIONAL GALLERY. Mr. CONINGHAM asked the First Lord of the Trea sury whether Sir Charles Eastlake, the President of the Royal Academy, has been this year re-appointed to the di rectorship of the National Gallery ? Lord PALMERSTON said that in the belief that Sir C. Eastlake was a most proper person for the office, he had recommended her Majesty to re-appoint him, and he had been re-appointed accordingly. THE PAPER DUTIES. On the motion that the house at its rising should adjourn until Monday, Mr. BRIGHT said—l gave notice last night that T would take an opportunity of calling the attention of the house to the position in which we stood on a matter that has ex cited much interest during the present session, and which is in my opinion a matter of very great importance—l allude to the questioh of the excise duties on paper, and to the effect which the action on that measure has had on the position and privileges of this house. I have no very definite question to put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I rather wish to make two or three suggestions to the Government and the house. I have abstained from taking any part in the dis cussion on the resolution proposed by the noble lord, because I did not think it was wise for the house to submit any re solution on the subject, being sensible that unless the Go vernment took part in favour of such a resolution, the divi sion of the house, if it took place, would place the house in a worse position than it occupied after unanimously accepting the resolutions of the noble lord. I am so conscious of the delicacy of the position in which we are placed that I would much rather stay where we are, awkward as is the position, than take any step to make it worse. I now offer two or three suggestions which I think may save the house from the painful and perilous predicament in which we have been placed during the present session. Two parties may be said to be damaged by the present state of things—those who are engaged in the manufacture of paper, and who have suf. fered grievously by the transactions of the session; and the House of Commons, who has suffered not less. The Chan cellor of - the Exchequer, in his budget, proposed that the ex cise duties on paper should be entirely abolished, as well as the import duties on paper. The paper makers would, there fore, have got rid of the ex cise, and they would have lost the advantage of the import duty over the excise duty. What had been done was this. The paper makers had not been relieved from the grievances of the excise, but they had been deprived of the advantage of a compensating protection. I am of opinion that the grievance of an excise duty cannot be so well measured by so many farthings per lb. I think it is one of those tyrannies which never ought to have been established, and never should be tolerated in a free country. Men in the honest pursuit of their industry are harried about, interfered with, overlooked, and enda maged by the officers of the Government, who have no right whatever to take part in their business transactions. The paper makers have made this mistake. Being in their posi tion they went into partnership with the Times. The Times was afraid of the cheap press, and the paper makers were afraid of free trade in paper. They clubbed their interests together. Nothing is so worrying and obnoxious to mem bers of this house as the action of this partnership between the Times and the paper manufacturers. No member can get either into or out of the house without having them upon him ; and I have been told that members on both sides of the house have been canvassed by every person connected with the Times, from the hon. member for Berkshire down through the whole rank of the contributors. AVe have had at the same time the most malignant attacks on the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, as if he were doing something against the public interest in abandoning the excise duty on English paper, and allowing foreign paper to be introduced. That I have no doubt is the secret of the abundant malice with which the right hon gentleman has been attacked by , the Times. Passing all this by, there is a large industry -300 or 400 firms—who will, after the 15th of this month, suffer by the excise duty that is kept on solely by the Lords Under most grievous circumstances ; for it is admitted on all hands that the excise is not and cannot be fairly levied, that there are exactions which act with great injustice. The courts have decided certain articles in some cases to be paper, and in others not paper ; and there is grave doubts on the part of the officers of the Inland Revenue whether those articles should be charged or not. The Inland Revenue has condemned this tax : the House of Commons has passed a resolution that the excise duty on paper is not a fit source of permanent revenue ; and therefore it has been condemned in the most emphatic manner. Not only was this duty condemned by the house, but a bill was passed through all its stages abolishing the excise on pa per; and on the 15th of August that duty would have ter minated, but for that which has not happened in this country for 500 years. But for the interference of the House of Lords, which has never within the historic period done such an act this duty would have been abolished. In stead of this, the paper makers, after next week, will be collecting £30,000 a week, or about £1,500,000 a year for the Exchequer, to which this house has not"consented, but has emphatically condemned by a public bill. They will be paying these taxes solely on the authority of the other house of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) We ought to take into consideration the grievous injustice inflicted on this important branch of industry ; and it is purely on their ac- cunt that I ask the house to consider in tho present session, whether means may not be taken to put an end to a monstrous injury to a most important and suffering class of the manu facturers of this country. Gentlemen on the other side of The Government is the depository of the rights of the house, and the house is in general very willing to follow. Now, we are weakened. If hon. gentlemen have read the news- papers of any foreign country, whether of the United States, France, Belgium, or wherever there is freedom of discussion of an, kind, they will find but one opinion expressed with regard to this matter ; and that is, that the House of Com- mons made a great mistake during this session—that we have had a fall—that we have not risen from it ; and that, in point of fact, rights which belonged to every free country and to every representative assembly have been needlessly surren . dered to a power which the House of Commons can always Fairly assert its rights against. As we stand we have not been 'aithful to those who g9nt us here. (Hear.) I never had amore firm conviction than this, that the noble lord had occasion to dissolve the house on this question of privilege there would have been a response amongst all the constiinencies of the country which would have returned him a majority such as there has not been in Parliament for many a year to 'os' thin the policy of the noble lord in this matter. I said I should recommend, as I have recommended, my noble friend the member for Marylebone not to go to a division on this matter. I prefer to remain where we are, unless we can take steps in advance ; for I am myself so very ten der of this right of the House of Commons, that I know of AO greater calamity that can come upon the country than that we should impair the confidence which the people ought to have in us—that we should impair our power over those questions, which are constantly becoming greater, affecting the finances and taxation of the country. (Hear.) There is such a thing as treason known to the law of every country. We have it in our law. It is committed cgainst a monarch, against a State. You may have in it much of evil or much of good. Treason of one kind may load a man with shame for ever, or may cover him with lasting re nown. But there is another kind of treason which is treason against a people. It may be committed by a Minis ter of the Crown, by a consenting Cabinet, or by a complai sant legislative body. But that is a treason which is all evil and has no good whatever in it. (Hear, hear.) It covers no man, orno body of men, with renown, but it covers them with contempt and infamy—decreed, I believe, by the just judgment of posterity. But I hope, I wish, I pray, that when the impartial pen of history shall tell the story of the doings of this session of the British Parliament, it may not have to say that the Prime Minister and his colleagues, with the House of Commons supporting them, let down the powers of the House of Commons, and sacrificed and betrayed—as I am afraid we are in danger of sacrificing and betraying—those most solemn and im portant rights which we are bound to maintain, I will undertake to say, by sanctions stronger than those which oaths can give—by all that our forefathers have done, and by'all that those who come after us have a right to ex pect at our hands. (Hear.) Ido not ask the noble lord to say now what he will do. Ido not wish to force him to an immediate answer—to rise in his place, and say this is im possible—it cannot be done. The noble lord is not infallible any more than the rest of us. But he might, I think, do much to bind together all those who have, for the most part, cordially supported his Government during the ses sion; he might do that which, I think, would be agreeable to the great party who have sent us to this house, and which I believe would even have the support of many hon. gentle men opposite. I believe that Parliament would then uni tedly rejoice that we could separate, having at least the same power in our hands—undisputed, unimpaired, and uncon trolled—that we had at the beginning of the session. Lord PALMER ST ON—I had hoped that this house had sufficiently discussed, at all events for the present session, if it had not finally disposed of, that question which had threatened to bring about a serious collision between the two Houses of Parliament. It is allowable, no doubt, for those who, like the hon. gentleman, entertain very strong and extreme opinions upon this matter, to take advantage of all fair and proper opportunities for impressing those opinions on the house, and urging that they should be car ried into some practical execution. But I must say that if the hon. gentleman does entertain the strong opinions which he expressed to-night as to the consequences to the cha racter of the house and to the constitution of the country that would follow from nothing more being done than that which this house by a majority of 400 agreed to do, I think it would be becoming in him to produce his opinions, and to propose his course of conduct at the time when the sub ject was under the consideration of the house—when the house was full, when the event was recent and fresh in the minds of members, and when therefore the house would be more ready to determine, and the country more ready to accept, a solution than they can be at the present time. (Hear, hear.) I think I have performed my duty to this house and to the country by recommending the course which I conceived it proper to pursue, and that opinion was confirmed by the immense majority whereby these resolu tions were sanctioned. I trust that if I thought that mea sures such as the hon. gentleman has adverted to as being adopted by Ministers of former days were appropriate to the occasion, necessary and proper, I should not have required the stimulus of his advice to point out to me the course which, as the responsible Minister of the Crown, I should have deemed it proper to recommend the house to pursue. (Hear, hear.) I do not think the occasion required more than what I proposed, and what the house adopted. (Hear.) I think we did sufficient to maintain the dignity and assert the privileges of this House of Parliament. But I think if there is one thing more undignified than another—if there is one thingmore humiliating than another, either in an in dividual or in an assembly, it is the indulging in puling lamentations and fruitless complaints, knowing at the time of making these complaints and lamentations that no prac tical result can follow except that of declaring to the whole world that, in the opinion of the speaker, an injury has been sustained for which none of the proposals which he makes by way of remedy can at the present moment be adopted. I think the hon. gentleman would have better consulted his own character and the dignity of Parliament, as well as paid more regard to the constitution of the coun try, if he had been content—not choosing to make his pro posals at the time when the matter was under consideration —to let it rest on the basis the majority of the house had placed it to the satisfaction, I will venture to affirm, of the great bulk of the nation. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentle man says that if we dissolved Parliament and appealed to the country on this question we should have had a great majority. lam entirely of a'different opinion. I are per suaded that the country would net have supported a Minis try who decmee that this was a question on which, under the circumstances of the case, we ought to take, issue. (Hear.) lam not prepared for any of the courses which the hon. gentleman proposes. lie has been pleased, towards the conclusion of his speech, to tell us what constitutes treason. There are those who think that men who would wish to overthrow every component part of the constitution of the country t might bring their minds to conceive plans which, if they were carried into execution, might come under that denomination. (Hear.) But all I will undertake to say is this, that when he says that a particular course which Go vernment may take is one which may be treason to the people, and that the adoption of such a course would cover the minister who adopted it with contempt and infamy, I rest with confidence the question between the hon. gentle man and myself on this point on the deliberate judgment of the present and all future ages ; and I am not at all afraid which view will be deemed to be deserving of the epithets which he has been pleased to bestow upon me. (Cheers.) EPPING AND HAINAULT FORESTS. Mr. BUXTON wished to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether he intended to proceed with the inclosure of those portions of Hainault and Epping Forests which had hitherto been the constant resort of the inhabitants of the east end of London ? Lord H. LENNOX asked for a copy of any correspon dence between the Government and the University of Lon don and the Royal Society respecting the terms upon which Burlington-house is held by them. Mr. COWPER must tell the noble lord that the case was urgent. The National Gallery had not at present accommo dation for pictures which required to be hung, and as to any pictures which might be hereafter granted to the National Gallery there would be no room to receive them. He was sorry on these grounds that he could not accede to the pro positions made by the noble lord. Mr. H. BAILLIE thought that, although the vote might be an urgent matter, he did not think it was necessary for the Royal Academy to remain where it now was, and that additional space would be obtained by their removal. AFFAIRS OF SYRIA. Mr. 11. B. SHERIDAN asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, with reference to the interference of the great powers in Syria, it was the intention of her Majesty's government to limit the aid rendered by England to the appearance of a naval squadron off the coast ? And whether or not, in the event of the horrible massacres being Continued, and the troubles in Syria extending to fresh places, it was the intention of her Majesty's government to send aid in troops, or to permit France to obtain all the honour and credit which must result from an active mili tary support of the Christians against the terrible proceed. ings of the Mahometans ? Lord J. RUSSELL—With regard to the question put to me by my hon. friend who has just asked whether we have limited our operations to a mere appearance of a naval force on the coast of Syria, I have I o reply that we have not so limited our interference, but that our naval squadron will do all in their power to prevent the massacres, and if they are not otherwise able to do so, the admiral is in structed to land the marines in order to prevent a recurrence of those scenes which have lately been enacted. It has been communicated to me by the Turkish Ambassador that there are accounts from Fuad Paths that 400 persons had been arrested for taking part in the recent massacres, that extraordinary tribunals had been established, and several of those persons had been already condemned, and if they were found guilty of having taken any part in the mas sacres they would be immediately executed. Fund Pacha also states that all the well disposed people at Damascus assisted the Government in arresting all those persons who had taken part in the outrages, and that the troops of the Sultan had behaved with the utmost loyalty. (Hear, hear.) No doubt, when the representatives of the vari ous Powers met at Paris, it was their opinion and that of their Governmeuts that there was considerable reason to fear, from the misconduct of the Turkish troops and those who commanded them, that the cause of order would find a faint and uncertain support from those troops; and there fore it was thought necessary that a body of French troops should be sent to support the authority of the Sultan ; but it was thought far better in the first instance that one power should take charge of the movement o f th e t roops, an d if it 1 became afterwards necessary to have an additional number of troops according to the protocol laid on the table, it would be then for the powers to say which of those powers should furnish that additional number of troops, and of course her Majesty's Government would have to give their opinion on that question, and if necessary take a part in the operation. I trust, however, that no such necessity will arise. I am inclined to believe that, from the vigorous measures taken by Fuad Pacha, though there are murders still going on in _ _ the country, and though the unfortunate Christians me afraid to return to their homes, the state of things will soon be very much better, and that the forces of Turkey and France will restore tranquillity to the country. If that is the case, instead of an additional number of troops being required, the Government of France will be enabled to re- - , call the troops they have sent. We hope that operation may be a speedy one, and that we shall soon hear that these horrible massacres have ceased, and that order has been re• stored, which is a matter of the first importance. (Hear. PAPER DUTIES. Lord FERMOY announced that at the suggestion of his hon. friend the member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) he had resolved not to proceed with his motion on this subject at present. THE LONDON CORPOrt ATION AND THE CORN TRAI.O4. Mr. BLAKE called the attention of the President of the Boord of Trade to the serious inconve:dence and loss fre quently sustained by importers of corn into the port of London and others interested in the trade, 00. account of the inadequate provision made by the corporation of the city of London for the measuring of grain, although derivii:g a large income from the monopoly of this privilege; and asked whether he would take steps for remedying the grievance complained of. TIM NATIONAL GALLERY. _ _ Mr. CONINGHAM said he had hoard with considerable regret the statement of the First Lord of the Treasury with reference to the Royal Academy and the reorganisation of the National Gallery. The President of the Royal Academy ought not to be re-appointed ; he had purchased from a M. Beaucousin, in Paris, a collection which contained a great many pictures which were thoroughly worthless, and which were bought up by that gentleman in the auction rooms of Paris for £5,000, and sold to the President of the Royal Academy for something between £9,000 and £lO,OOO. The collection contained many pictures which were unworthy of the collection of any private gentleman who set any store upon his judgment as an amateur. It was not merely a question as to whether £15,000 was to be expended on the National Gallery, but it was for the house to consider whe ther they would countenance the establishment of a vast department, under the control a the Privy Council, for the purpose of exercising a despotic andi authoritative influence on all questions connected with science aZid art. He hoped Parliament would interpose and prevent any further expen diture on the National Gallery by postponing tize conside- ration of the whole question until next session. FOREST OF HAINAULT. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE asked the Secretary to the Trea sury on what principle the Woods and Forests, having taken 1,873 acres of the King's Woods of the late Forest of Hainanit, in full satisfaction of all her Majesty's rights ever the said King's Woods, now claim a further portion of the residue of the King's Woods that the Crown gave up for the benefit of the commoners; and also on what grounds they included in the bill, which they promised the commoners of Chigwell and:Lambourn to bring in for the division of the part of the King's Woods so given up by the Crown, the manorial wastes of Chigwell and Lambourn, and this with out the consent of the commoners of Chigwell and Lam bourn. Mr. LAING said the forests were not public parks, but portions of the private estates of the Crown, and therefore no principle could be applied to them except that which was applied to all other private property. With regard to the second question, the Crown possessed two rights—the right of soil and the right of common. Some time ago the right of soil was compromised for a certain acreage of land, but the right of common still remained, IRISH BUSINESS. Mr. SCULLY called attention to the conduct of Irish business, and asked the Secretary for Ireland whether the Rev. Mr. Fox had been reinstated as chaplain of the South Dublin Union, and if it was intended to infuse a due pro portion of Irish and of Catholic elements into the constitu tion of the Irish Poor-law Board. With regard to the conduct of Irish business, he contended that it was most unsatisfactory. Very important questions of vital interest to Ireland were awaiting legislation, and notwithstanding the urgency of the different matters, and the remonstrances of Irish members, no effort was made to press them forward for the consideration of the house. He would suggest to the noble lord at the head of the Government that he should endeavour to make some progress with the Irish measures. PIERS AND HARBOURS BILL. Mr. PAULL called the attention of the President of the Board of Trade to the report of the evidence taken before the select committee on the Piers and Harbours Bill (1860), and asked if he would consent to introduce the bill pre pared by the Government to carry out partly or in whole the recommendations of the royal commissioners on har bours of refuge, in order to afford opportunity for full conside ration of the measure prior to the next session of Parlia ment. The hon. gentleman said it would be a great advan tage to have the bill of the Government printed, so that it might be fully considered during the recess. Mr. M. GIBSON said the hon. gentleman had correctly stated that there was a bill in existence in reference to har bours of refuge. But that bill was drawn previously to the appointment of the select committee which sat on the bill prepared by the hon. member. An HON. MEMBER here moved that the house should be counted, and he stated that it was quite impossible to go on with the business of that house with so few members in it ; about 32 were then present, but on the house being counted after the usual time, 40 members were found to be present. Mr. M. GIBSON proceeded to say that the bill of the Government was also drawn previously to the resolution moved by the hon. member for Sunderland, and agreed to by the house, and as the report of the select committee drew attention to questions generally in reference to merchant shipping, it would, under all the circumstances, be very un desirable to introduce the bill which had been prepared by the Government in the earlypart of the session, because the Government thought it would be necessary that these vari ous inquiries should be well weighed by them, and that the measure to be introduced should be framed in reference to the resolution of the hon. member for Sunderland. He must therefore decline the invitation which the hon. mem ber had given him to lay the bill upon the table, but he hoped to bring the matter forward early in the next session. After fully considering all the inquiries which had taken place as to the question which had been put to him by the hon. member for Waterford (Mr. Blake) in reference to the number of corn meters in the City of London, he had to reply that the Executive Government had no juris diction over the corporation of the City of London in re ference to these matters. He (Mr. M. Gibson) had, however, as President of the Board of Trade, called•the attention of the corporation to the great inconvenience which pre vailed in regard to the merchant shipping and the discharge of certain cargoes, and he had caused a letter to be written to the Lord Mayor on the subject, and had suggested to him the propriety that, if it were within his jurisdiction, he should take such measures as might be necessary to re medy the grievances complained of. It appeared to him (Mr. Gibson) that if the corporation possessed the right of metage, that right must carry with it the obligation of having an adequate number of meters for the purpose of the merchant shipping. He had received that day a letter from the Lord Mayor, and he stated that he had imme diately given his best consideration to the subject, and had caused an additional number of meters to be appointed, so that not a moment should be lost in discharging the car goes of the various ships which had been kept waiting. With regard to the question as to how the rights of the cor poration of the City of London could best be dealt with, he would not offer any opinion on this occasion. THE "TIPPERARY EXAMINER." Mr. HENNESS Y called attention to a letter alleged to have been written by the Emperor of the French to the editor of the Tipperary Examiner, and asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he had taken any steps to ascertain its authenticity ? When he read the letter of the Emperor of the French, he certainly doubted its authenticity. Had the Emperor chosen to address such a letter to a journal in this country, it would have been a dif ferent matter; but as it was, it was a doubtful question whether the extraordinary mental energy of which they had heard so much was not over-rated. Mr. CARDAI ELL said the Government had desired to proceed with certain measures referred to in an early part of the evening, but they had not been able to do so. The guardians of the South Dublin Union had most readily ac cepted the recommendation that Mr. Fox should be re-in• stated. With regard to the letter of the Emperor of the French, the noble lord (Russell) instructed him to say that he was not in the habit of seeing the Tipperary Examiner. Mr. WHITESIDE said his objection to the local govern ment of Ireland was that it was opposed to 19-20ths of the inhabitants. (Hear.) If he had all the standing, know ledge, professional ability, and experience, nothing would recommend him to the " powers that be," if in addition he did not profess the Protestant religion. (No.) Mr. DEASY entirely denied the truth of this allegation, and challenged Mr. Whiteside to prove it. He fearlessly said that they had not been guided by religious considera tions in their appointments. The two judges recently ap pointed, Hughes and Fitzgerald, were most qualified by their attainments for the office. (Hear, hear.) No one had occupied a higher position in private life than Mr. 0' Ilaglian, the Solicitor-General. (Hear, hear.) Religion was not con sidered either a qualification or a disqualification for office. (Hear, hear.) The Government had had regard to compe tence alone, and he was ready to meet the hon. gentleman on that question. (Hear.) The motion of adjournment was then agreed to. PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) ACT (1356) AMENDMENT BILL. On the motion that this bill be read a second time, Mr. BLAKE moved that the bill be read a second time that day three months. He contended that there was no ne cessity for such a bill in the present state of Ireland. The r i g h t h on . gentleman the Secretary for Ireland and the noble lord at the head of the Government admitted the peaceful condition of Ireland, and the judges of assize dur ing their late circuit bore testimony to the peaceful state of the country, and to the absence of crime, it appeared to him to be altogether unjustifiable that so penal at , act as this should be inflicted upon the country under rcircum- stances like these. An HON. MEMIIER hero mov,td that the house be co unted, but there being more than 40 rnembers present, The HON. GENTLEMAN resu med, and concluded by say ing that he considered it most impolitic to pass this measure, as it could not fail to , alienate the feeling: of the people of Ireland from the Government of the country. _ Colonel FRENCH and Mr. LONGFIELD opposed the bill, as insulting to Ireland, unnecessary, and practically inope- rative. Mr. CARDWELL supported the bill, as merely continu ing those powers for the prevention of crime which for the present it was desirable to continue. The bill was one of prevention rather than punishment, and was in no respeCt insulting to Ireland. Mr. I\l'MA HON protested against the bill as tyranniesio and contended that no circumstances had occurred in Ireland to warrant the Government in bringing in a measure to ' make it a disdemeano'ur in Irishmen to be found in the pos • session of arms—a privilege now freely accorded to Englial.- men, and in accordance with the Bill of Rights. Mr. BUTT also denounced the measure, and said th 0 right hon. gentleman the Secretary. for Ireland and 'the Government ought to be ashamed to propose such a 1a'All• He denounced the bill as unjust and uncalled-for, an , 1 all insult to Ireland ; but suggested that if in committoe its operation should be limited to the Ist of May nest, when Parliament would agaie have an opportunity of considering the subject, he should be ready to allow it to pass. Tie ATTORNEY- GENERAL for IRELAND justified the int.roduction of the bill, replying to the obj actions made to it. gr. MA OUIRE and Sir G. BOWYER protested against the renewal of the law, and contended that the circumstances of Ireland rendered its re-enactment unnecessary and un called for. Mr. MONSEt..i. protested against the bill sts unneces sary, and having pointed out that the judges h.ad in their recent charges described the country as free from agrarian outrage,. and that the gaols were empty, he urged that the bill was uncalled for. The O'DONOGIIITE denounced the attempt to pass such a measure as tyrannical. Mr. HENNESSY moved the adjournment of th t) debate. Lord PA.LMERSTON hoped the hon. gentle mean was not serious. (Hear.) The house then divided— For the adjournment .. 12 Against it The house then divided on the second reading—, ' Ayes Noes Majority PARTY EMBLEM'S (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. CARDWELL moved the second reading of this bill. 31r. HENNESSY said that for the very same reason which led him to oppose the second reading of the previous bill he felt bound to oppose the second reading of this big, namely, Oat it was an unjust and partial measure. lie moved that h . :a bill be read this day three months. Mr. LoNGF 7ELD seconded the motion, having the strongest objection to any legislation of this kind. After a short discuss:Cim, the question was then put that the bill be read a second time. The house divided. Th.. numbers were— For the second reaclin, 7 Against it 33 l‘lajority.... . The bill was then read a sec Cams I time. Mr. WHITESIDE said if the -„ lovernment retained the e clause in the bill which enabled the wilco to enter Pric e houses to search for party emblems tL civil war. (" Hear, hear," and " Oh, o. 11 •") se d The remaining business on the paper 'as then disPo of, and the house adjourned. 'ey must prepare rox :he house are supposed by their silence b approve of whai has been done. I appeal to them as representatives of some portion of the English constituency, and I ask them if they do not feel in a very different position in regard to their rights and powers over the taxation of the country to that which they occupied when the session opened. It is im possible to conceal the fact that the Horse of Commons is shorn of its power, and that it has permitted itself to be hustled, so to speak, and deprived of the authority which for five hundred years our predecessors had exerted with out contradiction and without control. The noble lord told us that if he thought that course of the other house of Parliament was to be the beginning of a practice, he would advise this house to resist it by every constitutional and legal means in its power. But if the noble lord were to turn back to a man whose authority he would respect, Lord Chatham, he would see that Lord Cha tham declared that if you admit a principle like this you may rely upon it that that principle will be constantly put in practice so soon as it can be supported by power. (Hear, hear.) That is precisely the dread I have now before me, that if this be permitted, so hungry is the appetite for power amongst all bodies of men, that I believe we shall have this pleaded as a precedent, that we shall have the principle supported by power, and that unfortunate state of things which Lord Chatham hoped would never arise will arise under the government of the noble lord, and by per mission of this house. Well, but the noble lord the member for the City of London, a great authority on these questions, told us that no question so grave as this had happened in his lifetime; and he said on one occasion that he considered it equal to a total change in our system of government. That must be a matter of some importance which could draw from one so cautious and so experienced as the noble loud words so grave as these. But the Chancellor of the Exche quer said this was a gigantic and dangerous innovation. The SPEAKER here intimated to the hon. gentleman that he was quoting words which had been used in a past debate. Mr. BRIGHT—I thank you, sir, for the intimation. I have no other reference to make to them, and I thought I was not trespa.sing on the rules of the house in bringing the evidence of ministers to bear in favour of the conclusion at which I wish the house and the ministers to arrive. The question is, what, under the circumstances, have we done ? We have passed three resolutions, very harmless it may be, but they were introduced in a speech which was far from harmless. If in the search which we made in that prece dents committee we had found within the last fifty years three cases like this, I will undertake to say that the committee would have been forced to admit that there were precedents of a very overwhelming nature regarding the power of the Lords on questions of this kind. Well, 50 years or 20 years hence, if the matter re mains as it now stands, there may be another committee ; there may be partisans of the policy of the Lords upon that committee. They might read the resolutions which the noble lord proposed, and which the house agreed to. But they will say what matter these resolutions. The resolu tions of this house or of the other house do not make a pre cedent, hut the thing done—the final conclusion—where the matter rested—that is the precedent as to the action of the two houses with regard to matters of this nature, and therefore they will look upon this as a precedent a hun dred times more fatal to the House of Commons than any of those that were produced by the diligent researches of the officers of this house. Now, I may be asked what would I have done in this matter. There are several things which might have been done. If the noble lord had been a man of the spirit of Chatham or Mr. Canning, in a matter of this nature, he would have come down the day after the re jection of that bill, and he would have asked the house, not because the excise duty on paper was a great question, but because the rights of the house were something of great value, to have suspended the standing orders, and to permit him to pass a new bill, reaffirming that which had bad been rejected. But the noble lord was afraid to do this. lam told that there were great doubts whether it could be done. It was said that money was wanted for the China war, and that we could not ask the house to do this. But, after all, it is a mere bagatelle in the £70,000,000 you are voting and spending. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has told us it is only £700,000 up to the commencement of the next financial year; and therefore it is perfectly idle to say that it is worth while, for the sake of these £700,000, to put in jeopardy the rights of the House of Commons, and to resign an authority over taxation into the hands of another house which this house has exerted—and without question--for a period not less than 500 years. (Hear, hear.) But there was another course which the noble lord might take, which it was still open to him to take, and for which he might find a most conclusive prece dent, if he were anxious to do so. In 1731 a case happened in which the Government wished to save the country gen tlemen from the pressure of a heavier land tax, and they agreed to take £1,200,000 for the service of the year out of the sinking fund, and to apply it to purposes for which it was not originally intended. When they brought that bill into the house it consisted of only two clauses. They moved, on going into committee, that the committee should be in structed to receive clauses of appropriation. They bound up the appropriation clause of the year with, those two, and the two matters together in one bill went up to the House of Lords, and were passed by that house. Well, there is an Appropriation Bill to be yet passed by the House of Com mons this session, and I think the House of Commons it self, if it has, as Mr. Canning said, a spark of spirit left in it to maintain its privileges and rights, will avail itself of that or some other proper mode for the purpose of restoring itself at the end of the session to the independent porition which it occupied when we met. (Hear.) But there is ano ther mode which I would recommend to the noble lord. He will see that I am merely offering suggestions for his consideration and for that of his colleagues in the Cabinet. There is a mode like that which Mr. Canning adopted in 1527. On that occasion the House of Lords rejected, by a substantial and great alteration, a bill which altered the duties leviable on foreign corn. The day after Mr. Canning came down to the house, and in language of greater severity than any which has been used in the course of these de bates asked the House of Commons to take a course to maintain their rights. But he said he felt that as Minister it was his duty to prevent, if possible, a collision between the two houses and therefore he asked the house not to pass exactly the measure which had just been rejected, but to pass another bill including its provisions, but limited to a duraticn of nine months; and I think he prayed that heaven in the mean time might grant intelligence and good sense.to legislators in another place, so that at the end of nine months they might agree to that which the Commons had determined upon. Now that was, in point of fact, very much like a bill of suspension. I would suggest to the noble lord and his colleagues that they might, if they thought proper, introduce into the house a bill for the pur pose of suspending the collection of the excise duty on paper up to the month of March or April next, which would allow time, when parliament met again, for the re introduction and passing of a bill abolishing the excise duty on paper for ever, and I think such a course as that would be judicious in every way. (Hear.) There is one other course which might be pursued, and that is the course which was recommended by the hon. member for Finsbury at the be ginning of these transactions. My hon. friend proposed a resolution, and although it was not in the form that could be accepted, yet its intention was that steps should be taken I presume by an address to the crown—that parliament should not be prorogued as usual, but adjourned till November, to allow the postponed bill to be reconsidered in the House of Lords ; to allow them to take up the bill and to pass it, as I believe they would do, and, by so doing, to restore har mony between the two houses. Either of those two courses, that of suspension or that of adjournment, would be pro • positions of conciliation between the two houses, and not prepositions which might be said to bear the character that the House of Commons was interfering to override the House of Lords. O'ne of these courses Government ought I think, to take, and I believe the house would support them. (Hear.) That Government had just the same fears the other night about that seven-eighths of a penny in the pound. How many weeks did they hesitate about that, and no one could tell why, except that they had some doubts whether they could carry it, and they did not like to run the risk of a defeat. But they brought it before the house, ani after one night' s d e b a t e , th e argum ent being trium phantly in their favour, the good sense of the house gave them a majority which was, I believed, three times the ma jority which the noble lord believed he possessed when he first met Parliament. (Hear, hear.) I believe if he had taken an equally wise and direct course with regard to the excise duty on paper, the House of Commons, disregarding the £600,000 or £700,000 of revenue, would have risen to the height of the case, and would have supported him in maintaining the privileges of the house. (Hear, hear.) I want to put this question to the house. Is it willing to sustain itself, or is it willing to mark itself by concessions of this dangerous and even of this ignominious character? COUNTRY MARKETS. LIVERPOOL—Ave. 10. We have had only a small attendance of buyers at th i t morning's market, and a moderate business done .in at about ld per cental over the full rates of Fri d ay os Flour in good consumptive inquiry at the late it nprocie. went of 6d per barrel and sack. Indian corn in r ei AllB4'll and American mixed is per qr dearer; other sort s lid to advance. Oats and oatmeal steady at fun. price 13 r e a tetl. peas, and barley command a good inquiry a t extra Rain has fallen during the whole time of market' WAKEFIELD—AUG. 10. We have had another week of variable weather, Nri ai heavy rain occasionally. Supplies of grain are mode ratf: The wheat trade rather active; prices slightly over last Fr i a day, but few sales. In other articles no change worth) ? note. EXETER--AUG. 10. Businees was firm in the corn market to-da.rt d (1 11° ' tations were at late rates. Wneat, I white 9d to 8s Od Barley. Ditto red 7s 3d to 7s 6d Oats .. ... 4 35 8 tt i d t t o°°43o °6l Flour, fine, 44s to 458; seconds, 41s to 42s pea ' saek CATTLE. O r/ Notwithstanding that there was a larger sum hi hat usual the market was sluggish, and prices were sa rae ' advanced. Fat beef,p score, Ils to 12s6d Perk carcases,do lls to lls 6d Sheep, per lb. 7d to lid Rough fat, I top ! Ewes, per lb .... 66 to 71d Wethers, do. 7d to /i Fat calves, d 0.... 6d 41d per lb. DERBY SMITHFIELD—AuG. 7. 0 There was a good supply of beasts to-day, with i 5 0 1c attendance of buyers, and a slight reduction in prices iii place. Sales difficult. The supply of sheep and la I d ro large to-day, but no alteration in prices. Fat and b calves equal to the demand. Pigs were plentiful. 0 Beef Mutton ... 71d to 84d Pork Lamb 9d to —d Rough fat, 5s Od per s top ' Hides, 3.1 d to 41d ; calf skins, 5d to 6d. COAL MARE (rem of Coal per Ton at d. nolywell 15 6 Bate's West Hartley 15 0 Buddle's West Hartley 16 0 Byass's Bebside West Hartley l6 0 Howard's West Hart- ET-AUG. 10. the close 0 the market.) Walls End. e• 0. o Framwellgate .. 0 Heugh .......... 17 0 South Hetton ......... 1 9 0 Acorn C105e.......... 0 Eden 17 0 Northumberland l7 0 Edon Main. 0 Haswell 1 9 • • ••• ...... . . 19 0 Hartlepool .. . . h North Hartlepool •• • 0 Peases West .....••• Whitworth.. . . l6 Brsddyll's Hett . on lB ; CowpenlHdrtley ..... .16 0 Stewart' s .. . .. l9 Carway and Duffryla 6 Malting , 72—Sold, 41. ley.. Lambert's West Hart- ley 15 9 Davison's West Hart- ley .16 0 Wylam l6 3 Tanfield Moor 13 0 Canfield Moor Butes 13 0 West Hartley 16 0 Walls End. Thorpe Ships at market, THE MAILS. MAILS DUE. Australia, Ceylon, and Mauritius ( - via South- S e pt. 18. ampton) • • • • • • • • • •t' 2. Do. (via Marseilles) Se Bahamas and Havana (via New York) . . • A ll g' Canada, 15. &c. (via Liverp oo l) Aug. Cape of Good Hope, &c. Sept. 1. China, Penang, and Singapore ( * via S' . a . mpton)iAug. i' • Do. ( v i a M arse ill es ) Aug. 12. in. Gibraltar (via S ou th amp t on ) Aug. India (Calcutta), Ceylon, 4:c. (via Southampton) Aug. Do. . (via Marseilles) Aug. 10. India (Bomb a y), ( v i a S ou th am pt on ) Aug; ig, Do. (via Marseilles) .. Aug. 4 Lisbon, Brazils, Buenos Ayres, &a. • • • • . Sept. Malta, Egypt, and Aden (via Southampton) Aug. Do. (via Marseilles) Aug. Lisbon, 'Vigo, and Oporto .. Aug. 16. United States, California, &c. .. • • • • Aug' 10. Western Coast of Atrica , Madeira, Teneriffe is. Aug. West Indies and Pacific, Carthagena, Cuba, &c. Aug. ivn. y lig" [ADVERTISEMENT.] Pills and medicine Invite. „m — - dir gravate and perpetuate diseases ; their annoyance , r od appointment, and expense may be avoided by per %, in indifferent health sending only their address t ° l ol S. Barry, Esq., 77, Regent-street, W., London, an u )11 1 will receive gratis and free by post the "INVALIDS ex. GUIDE," or Natural Restorer, without medicine or _,,,4 pense, of perfect digestion, strong nerves, sound lungs, 7,1 refreshing sleep, to the most enfeebled, insuring the remo ~ of indigestion (dyspepsia), constipation, 1 00 0 ' nausea, epilepsy, paralysis, debility, nervousness, palp ta_ _„.. cough, asthma, consumption, dropsy, flatulency, diarrn liver nomnlain w ' dysentery, biliousness, fevers, sore throats, .cataarlis, cpl g . noises in the ears, rheumatism, gout, hysteria, neuralgia, irritability, impurities, eruptin, po ndency, cramps, spaß uic is sleeplessness, acidity, pl., tation, heartburn, headache, des sinking, fits, bronchitis.—" Unquestionably the safest G to health." BIRTHS. CAMPBELL.—On the Bth ins t., at Wi ndsor, the Hon. ill. Henry Campbell, of a daughter. LOPES.—On the 9th inst., at Mariston, Plymouth, tile the Bth inst , at Ti ms b ur y Hon, Lady Lopes, of a daughter. smlEstipre7tre wife of Major Chas. Edward Islansg el M H AN a of a son. MARRIAGES. col t- DALE—llussnY.—On the 9th inst., at St. John's. ford, George Cornelius Dale, Esq., Commercial-road to Matilda, daughter o f th e l ate Th omas Hussey, ~ „, PRICE—STEANE.—On the 9th inst at Denmark age' Camberwell, Charles eldest son o"f Thomas Price, V cl ' h LL.D., of Upper liedford-place, to Sarah Glutte ridge? eldest daughter of Dr. Steane. DEATHS. CAnNEOIE.—On the 7th inst., at Leamington, christiq Mary Carnegie, C nlai of sk eg r i ; e , ,el s d o e u s t t h d e aughter of the late Sir D 3 C 1 C OOPER.—On the 9th inst., at Toddington Manor, Bede William D. C. Cooper, Esq., J.P., aged 73. Dir W DERIIRST.—On the 9th inst,, at 15, Paternoster - ro vr t James Dowhurst, aged 32. LUARD.—On the 9th inst., John D. Luard, Esq., s ec° son of Lieut.-Colonel Luard. ark, MAY.—On the 10th inst., at King's-road, Claphanl - P Charles May, C.E., F.R.S., of 3, Great George-stree Westminster, aged 59. VIEUPETJX.—On the 10th inst., at his residence, Coinnles cial-terrace, Peckham, Stephen Vieupeux, sq., lat e the Audit`-office, aged 77. --- LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO youllaii of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun DID2O)N ° II . O i Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the octulv Middlesex, Saturd4y, August 11, 1860. -•• - .. efi th C( ci