The Sun. — London, England, 1858-07-28 00:00:00

evidence was taken, and one witness, Mr. Denison, the chairman of the Great Northern Railway, recom mended that the jurisdiction should be taken away from the house altogether. It frequently happened that member's of the committee, from ignorance of the man ner of conducting investigations in courts of justice, pursued lines of examination wholly irrelevant, and they allowed counsel to play all sorts of tricks with I them. Occasionally a member of the committee struck up a mare's nest, and detained a witness a day and a half, although the expenses to the parties amounted to 2001. or 3001. a year. Permanent chairmen would have to sit 50 days in the session, four times a day, and he thought it was only just that they should receive com- pensition for their labours. Mr. D. GRIFFITHS complained that in these com mittees counsel received enormous and unreasonable fees, and rushed about from one committee to another. He trusted that that system would r?ceive a check, espe cially as the counsel practising before Parliamentary committees were not required to be B'3 astute, or their logal talents so perfect , as those who practised in courts of justice. Sir D. NORREYS thought that gentlemen degraded themselves by the centralisation of business in that house. He believed that much of that business mi4ht be transacted in their visions countie2, at a very much smaller expense than Was incurrel in bringing it to London, Col. WILEON PATTEN hoped the day would never come when members of that house would 1).3 paid for their parliamentary services. The CIAA.NCE LLO It of the EXCEIEQ [TER promised that the attention of the Government should be called to the report of the committee appointed for the revision of the standing orders. Colonel PA ITEN moved, that this house will not in sist on its privileges .with regard to any clauses in pri vate bills sent down from the House of Lords which re fer to tol;s and charges for services performed, and are not in the nature of a tax. The motion was agreed to. GOVER,NNIENT OF INDIA. BILL. On the order for the consideration of the Lords Amend ments on this bill, Colonel SYKES moved as an amendment that they be considered this day three months. The East India Company had gained an empire which Alexander the Great or Augustus Caesar might have envied, and he thought, therefore, it might have been re• spected by the Government instead of seeking its extinction. He had been for a long time con nected with the company, and he could say that there had always been a desire to prevent war, annexation, and extensions, and that what bad been done bad been forced upon them by the home Go vernment, and they had been obliged to confirm the acts of the. home Government against their better convic tions. With those exceptions, there bad not been a failure'in its administrative power. Millions of men and abundance of stores bad been conveyed to India, and he held that there bad not been a single failure, and, so far as he was aware, not a complaint. The directors, he maintained, bad been actuated by the best intentions to ensure to the people of India their right , , privileges, and justice. (Hear, hear.l It could not be contended that the Company was responsible for the Indian mutiny, which arose from the fact that a certain number of gallant men preferred death to dishonour, and would not d.o that which was opposed to their roli gieus convictions. That spirit rapidly ran through the army of Bengal, and speedily made it a mass of mutiny. The hill cinched a court which enabled the people to come before the public with their complainte, and which put an end to party strife in that house on Indian affairs—strife which he contended had been a disgrace to the British character. What was the preserb state f India? Everything must succumb to our „arum thete, but it was like putting a man's fingehttoo*on a globule of quicksilv r. He thought be had got it under his power, but only let him look around, and he would see 20 globules starting on every side. That was the exact state of India at prevent in reference to our military ope rations there. He believed that the present state of this question was tb a result of a mistake. Some mendacious papers had stated that there was a determination on the part of the public that the authority of the company should be transferred to the Crown. Many members of that house beieved those statements, and hence the large division which took place on she question. Be might remind the house that there were at that moment 481 petitions before the house in reference to India. Of these 126 were for the removal of the system of caste, 89 were against i iolatry, and 145 were for the extension of Christianity. So that there were 360 petitions closely touching the feelings of the people, (Hear, hear.) He believed that in this movement the natives of India would come to the conclusion that the Government was not caring for them, and that the only object they had in view was to secure the patronage which would fail into their hands as a result of this transfer of power. That would necessarily tend to increase the distrust of the English Government which so extensively prevailed in India. The result of all this was that there was in India at the present time a more dangerous enemy then the mutineers in India, and that was a want of confi dence on the part of the people. He would say, let t"e missionaries in India pursue their arduous and, he had no doubt, beneficial labours. They were doing good, for they were unsuspected, not being c ,nnected wit•l the Government. There were 460 of them, of all denomi nations, labouring in various parts of the country, to which they had free access, but if they once had the official prestige of Government they would be the worst enemies India ever had. He would say, in conclusion, that the Government should endeavour to respect the prejudices of the people of India, as far as they were reasonable and just, and that they should mark the transfer of power to the Crown by a discriminating am nesty. Unless these things were done, there would lie no peace in India, and no safety for our doneidons. (Hear, bear.) Mr. MANGLES defended the civil service of the East . India Company, which be c meidered had been treated with undue disrespect in that house. He had been connected with it for many years, and he could bear testimony to the fact that it had always been guided with a view tothe benefit of India. (Hear.) Hecomplaieed that in a previous debate Mr. Bright had asserted that the company bad labented from a chronic defi ciency, a statement which be most positively denied. The same bon. gentleman bad also asserted that the land revenue was a most oppressive system of taxation, but the facts he believed would prove most undeniably, that it was a most moderate system of taxation, and that it was cheerfully borne. The assessments had, been continually reduced in a manner which was satisfactory to the people, and without any petitive lore of revenue. The hon. gentleman repeated the conviction he has fre quently expressed on tormer occasions, that, with few and unimportant exceptions, the late outbreak was a mill ary rebellion, and he held, as a general rule, that the remark was perfectly true—" Where no Sepoye, no insurrection." Reverting to the civil service, he denied that the men who composed ft were overpaid. It was not to be expected that men would go to India for the same , salaries they - would accept amongst their friends at home. if they offered the men connected' with the civil service in India half the salaries they nov had for work in India, that civil service would be very soon denuded of its best men. (Hear.) He made an earnest anpeal to the noble lord at the bead of the Icdia de partment that, in apportioning the rewards for recent services in India, military success should not be the sole claim, and that those men should not be forgotten who had saved us from military successes by preserving the peace of their respective districts. (Hoer, hear.) Amongst these he might mention such men as Edwards, Chamberlain, and Cotton. He hoped that government would at‘tain from interference with the religion of the people of India, and that in this respect the government would hold the scales eqnaliy between all. The Hindoos, so far from having a dread, had a great respect for the missionaries, so long as they knew that they were acting an independent part, and were unconnected with- the Government. (Hear, hear.) He did not believe that the noble lord the member for Tiverton r-gretted that be had ever meddled with the East India Com pany, and that if the past could be forgotten, there were very few members in that house who would care to revive what hid been done in reference to the new government of India. An eminent writer had remarked, that to form a new government for India was as difficult a task as to build a tree, and be believed those who bad meddled with Indian matters of late had found this tree -building a very difficult operation. (Hear.) Mr. WARREN thought that in the bill a mighty stride nad been made on a momentous branch of iegifi htic n, and that the highest credit was due to Lord John B.uesell for making the whole house a party to legisla tion in this respect by proceeding by resolution, thus clearing the way from all party considerations, and from all appearance of faction...(flear, hear.) He was of opi nion that they might now look for a rapid extension of Christianity in India, but that civilisation, he considered, should be based on Christian principle, and that alt undue concessions should be withdrawn. Mr. V. SMITH expressed a hope that the house wouid go into the consideration of the Lords' ameni reents without going into the general question. He would not, therefore, put the questions he had proposed to the noble lord (the President of the Board of 0 no trol), as the noble lord had stated that he (Ur. Smith) should have an opportneitY of making a statement on the s u bj ec t on Friday next. The ques tions were as follows t Whether the 17, 0 0 0 m en tent to India since January last included any troops re quested to be added to the est a bli s h ment in India by the directors of the East Indi a Company Whether he will state the terms and objects of the commission to inquire into the reorganisation of the Indian army l What is the amount borrowed under the Indian Lean Act of this session, end whether the amount allowed to be borrowed under the act will cover the expenses of the current year,.. ex _ie billa ara n )77 drawn upon Inoa in the usual method ; and, whether any in structions have. been sent, or will be sent, to proclaim lice Majesty's Hama and a uthority in India, and to an nounce the intentions of the government as to non interference with the religion of the natives I The right hon. gentleman stated briefly the reasons which had in duced Lord Palmeraton's administration to interfere with the question of Indian government. Lord J. RUSSELL, adverting to a remark of Mr. Mangles, that he did not expect much longer to be a member of the house, in anticipation of his election as a member of the new Indian Council, expressed his regret that the members of that body were prohibited from sitting in the Renee of Commons. General THOWSON looked upon legislat!on at present for India as a crowning madness. -It was like the corumauder of a teasel changiog his lower sail in a gale of wind. He had no hesitation in saying that if a , afahommedan should curse to that table to be sworn be would introduce him, for he believed there was very little difference between the religions of Mahommedans sod Christians. sygES withdrew his amendment, and the house proceeded to a cozwideratioa of the Lords' amaudreents. Upon the additioq wade Py 019.1J:44 to clause THE SUN,, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 28, 1858. ".That no such order shall be sent without having been previously communicated to the Vice-President and one I other member from ti me to time to be selected by the house on Friday. He _begged to ask the hon. and learned gentleman whether iu his capacity as Attorney- General, and in the discharge of his daty to her Majesty, he had received any fee in reference to any bill in the discussion of which in the house he had taken part, and on which he voted on a division ? _ Secretary of State, Lord J. RUSSELL said the amendment io loi4 opioiou did not provide that security which was intended by the Lords, and he therefore proposed that the - following ' words be substituted, " That no such order shall be sent without having been'previously communicated to a committee consisting of the Vies-President and fcur other members to be selected from time to time by the Seoretary of State, and the opinion of the committee in respect to such order shall have been given in writing." Lord STANLEY said it was no easy task to defend the amendment made by the Lords, but the same objec tion the noble lord took to the amendment applied with equal force to his proposition. , (Hear, hear.) Sir J. GRAHAM was opposed to the Lords' Amend ment. The CHANCELLOR of the .KXCHEQUER said if the noble lord would withdraw his amendment he would not support that made by the Lords. (Hear, hear.) He thought the words as they originally stood in the bill far preferable to either amendment. Mr. MANGLES approved of the amendment. made by the Peers. Sir J. COLEBROOKE thought no security would be given by compelling the Minister to communicate his despatches to members of a council appointed by himself. Mr. BOWYER thought the amendment of the noble lord the member for London was a great improvement of the Lords' Amendment, although he was of opinion that the number of the committee as suggested by him was rather too numerous—three members of the commit tee he thought would be sufficient. The amendment, however, of the noble lord, taken altogether, was a very useful one, and, in the event of a division, he should give The ATTORNEY-GENERAL -4t has been the practice from very early times, whenever a bill is brought ihto Parliament, whether it is brought forward by any depaltment of the Government, or is a bill brought be fore the house at the instance of an individual member, which involves any question of the rights of the crown to any property of any description, to submit the bill, or the clauses which relate to the rights of the crotsn, to one or other, or both of the law officers of the crown, the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General. That practice is well known —must be well known to the meinbers of every Government who have sat in the house in ,the present century, and must be and is known to the hon. gentle man who put the question. During the present session two bills, one of which was recently before the house, directly affected the rights of the Crown to property of considerable value.- Those bills, in conformity with ancient practice, were submitted to the Attorney-G-eneral and I believe to my hon. and learned friend the Solicitor General, under the usual circumstances and with the usual fees attached to them ; and certainly and un -1 donbtedly in' the discussion on that bill the Attorney- General and the Solicitor-General, as they felt hound, in duty to the Crown to do, did take part, and in one, two, and, I believe, three divisions, I myself, and I believe nay hon. anti learned friend the Solicitor•Ganeral took part. (Hear, hear.) THE WELLINGTON MONUMENT. Mr. S. WORTLEY, who had a motion on the paper to call attention to the subject of the Wellington monument, appealed to the Government whether he wai not entitled t) bring it on. He had given every facility it his support. After a few words from Mr. A. MILLS, Mr. V. SMITH locked upon the amendments as mere sham. One of the main objects of the bill was to get rid of the secret committee altogether ; but both amendments were in fact to reconstruct that secret committee. He looked upon the proposed committee as a most cumbrous and inconvenieut hamper upon the Secretary of State. He thought that either the commit tee ought to be open to be whole Council, or else to rely upon the sole responsibility of the Secretary of State. Mr. P. O'BRIEN said the object was to have a re sponsible Minister to administer Indian affatre. If the Minister was to be responsible, what need was there of his having any advice from the Council ? In his opinion the amendment eniirely took away the responsi bility of the minister. He hoped the hou,e would not agree to the amendment. Mr. WILSON said he believed the amendment of the Lords would provide a check upon the Minister, and if that Minister bad hitherto been under the necessity of i consulting even one member of the Council, the despatch of Lord Ellenborough would never have been sent out to India. Lord PALMERSTON said the foundation of the measure was, that for the present Government organisa ti .n should be substituted the single responsibility of tt e Minister of the Crown ; and the amendment of the Lards, and the proposition of the noble lord the member for the City of London, were opposed to that priceple. He greatly objected to its being made compulsory upon the Minister to communicate his despatches to any par tieular person who was not a member of the Cabinet. Such a proposition was, in effect, shackling the Cabi net. He hoped the house would reject the amendment altogether. (Divide, divide.) The SPEAKER then put the amendment of Lord John Russell from the chair, and it was negatived without a division. On the question that the amendment made by the Lords be agreed to, The house then divided, when there appeared— For the Lords' amendment Against it M jority ---68 The amendment was consequently rtjsated. The next amendment, by which the Lords sought to vest the patronage in the Secretary of State in Council, was opposed by Sir J. GRAHAM, who said the effect of the alterations would be to invest the whole of the Indian patronage in the Secretary of State, sutijeot only to a protest from he Council. As the bill went up to the Lords it was proposed that the patronage should be vested in the Se cretary of State, with the concurrence of the majority of the Council, and he thought they sheuld either restore the words "with the concurrence of a majority of the Council," which were struck out in the Lords, or to vest it entirely in her Majesty. Lord STANLEY said he could not defend .the Lords' amendment. The amendment was rt;jso!ed without a division. The next amendment of the Lords to the same clause was object-d to on the same ground, and rej , cted. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it would be cenveniect if he was now to move the adjourn ment of the debate until six o'clock. The motion was pu ; from the chair and agreed to INTERNATIONAL PATENT RIGHT BILL. This hill passed through c oninittee. ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS BY COM MITTEE BILL. This bill passed through committee. The sitting was then suspended. The house resumed at 6 . x o'clock. NOTICES OF MOTIONS. CLIURCII RATES. to the Government business on the undevtancling that he should have a❑ opportunity of bringing the silbject forward The CHANCELLOR t.f the EXCHEQUER—It is always agreeable to me to meet the wishes of the hon. members on both piths of the house, and I have endea voured to do so. I put it to the house whether the ap peal made to me is reasonable ? (Hear.) I should not be doing my duty if I did not ask the house to proceed with the Lords' 'amendments to the India _ INDIA BILL. The consideration of the Lords' amendments was pro oceded with. EXA.XIINATION OF THE MEDICAL SERVICE. On clause 51, Sir H. RAWLINSON objected to the amendment. The clause provided for the competitive examination of the civil service end the medical service. By the amend ment the latter was passed over, and the medical service became nominative.. Practically there was now no com petive examination for the medical service, for in the re cent instances the number of candidates did not equal the number of appointments ; there were very few ap plications and the appointments were not taken up.. At the same time it was the wish of the house that the sys tem of competitive examination should be kept up for the medical service. Lord STANLEY said the question of competitive examination could be discussed on the next clan= e. He imagined the examination of the civil service woul ap ply to the medical service also. The amendment was agreed ,to. Oa the amendment to. clause 32, which altered the clause as sent up by the Commons, extending cernpetie tive examination t) all brandies of the military service, Lord J. RUSSELL said that he understood the noble lord wished the house to agree to the amendment of the Lords ; if so, there oueht to be some explanation on the subject, for it seeme I at first sight that an extraordinary omission hal been made in the cause by the Lords. It was his wish, and that of other members of that house, that the system of competitive examination should be more gene rally introduced, so as to go beyond the civil service, and embrace the different branches of the army. The noble lord who had always declared himself favourable to the prin ciple of competitive examination, expressed his readi ness to include that principle in the bill ; but he ex pressed an opinion that it would be better in the first instance not to introduce it in all branches of the army, but to confine competitive examination to the civil ser vice and the scientific branches of the army—namely, the artillery and engineera. That was a fair proposal on the part of the ; oble lord, and it was taken as the inten tion of VIE; Gt)Vt rAment. But tl e Lords, while t .ey had left in all the words relating to the examination, had lett out the words which gave tae persons who had under gone the examinations a security that they should receive the rewerd cf their labours, and they gave a power to the Crown to' put an end to the system of competitive examination, for it was obvious that such examinations wool f be of no value unless the hest men obtained the rewarde they sought. If that was to be the case the dis appointment would be so great that it was evident that no one woul 1 present himself fir exernination. It would, he thought, be necessary to restore the words %hid% had been omitted. He objected to leaving this matter at the disereion of the Minister of the Crown. The noble lord was in favour of the principle of compe titive examination, but another Secre.ary for India might be opposed t ft, and would not carry it out, lie thotrytit the words in question should be restored, and shoull mast the amendmen ., with a negat , ve. Lord STAN LEY said the noblel , rd had done justice, not only to himself, but to the present Government, when he said that they were f evour able to the principle of competitive exerninati m. He had supported that pun ' ciple five years ago, when it was less understood and less popular than now. He had not altered his view, and it had been his pleasuie, as well as his duty, to exten-1 thee principle to the scientific: branches of the ataxy in India. If the proposal' to alter the clan te had in his mind de stroyed the right to the preservation of that principle, he would far rather have resigned the situation which he hell than have agreed to it. (Hear.) But he thought that it would not • have tbat effsct, and ho would explain in a few words how the matter stood. . If the home accepted the amendment of the Lards, it would, only leave the question of competitive examination for the civil service on the same footing as it stood in 1353, when the then President of the Board of Control intro duced a bill to sanction the principle of competition for the civil service, but that only gave power to the Crown to establish the system by order in council. If the Lords' amendmeSt was adopted by the house, there would be no alteration, and the right would exist in the same man ner as ever. The change he proposed was to recognise directly by act of Parliament the principle of competitive examination, instead of by order is coat - roil. W hen that was proposed, it was met by -the oli.letion that it was not a constitutional course to give an administrative and executive act a parliamentary tide, and he believed that was correct. There was no instance in .which a Parliamentary ti le had beep given. As to the olj .cton of the noble lord that it was in tae power of a Mini-ter for India to put an end to the system, the security against - that was that the order in council carrying out the system must be superseded by another, %%Teich must be laid before that house, which had pronounced in favour of the system of competitive examination, and which it could lfard!y be in the power of any Minister to resist. What ho relied upon was the necessity of an are peal to the house bsfore any alteration or eiodification of the system could take place. His belief was that whe ther the words were ()witted as now proposed, or r.- tamed, the principle of unres'ricted competition was eqnally safe, and - certain to be rnainte ned. • Sir D. NORREYS supported the am niiment. Sir J. GRAEIA.SI said if his noble friend (Lord John Russell) dividid, he shots d divide with him. He bad the utmost confidence in the assurance of the noble lord the President of the B iard of Control, because he well rernemberedehe vote given by horn in 1853 in favour of ompetitive examination. ,The noble lord seemed to think there was no practical dlfference between an order in council and a statutable recognition ' which was part of the bill sent to the Lords. Ho differed with the noble lord altogether. It was a difficult thing•te re peal an act of Parliament, but au order in council might be dealt with by a single vote. Sir J. Lawrence, whose recent experience of civil appointments under CM petition was so, favourable, earnestly desired that the principle should be extended to the scientific branches of the army. On this point he was able to appeal to aunhe. rity, experience, and the decision of the Reuse of C mon?, and could see no reason for the alteration which had been male by the Loris. (Hear, hear.) • Tco Lionr l‘ ae l nut r ott o.bawf competitive c.e N , sat V .., usa house on A ot hi oh L eseaps P y ,dacs O w%itl, taeul L ii musgmaEhsemeier:sei. might ot i tt e (IT, be htseetiehesatyei apprehended irec u rew: e ant , s rbi etti desirable ey o dhi n ut: ne)d r hoat a ; hw i l s e e d u t u w r a was, 0 whe therrn er "to; given oiv ti rn nder e ooi rnd: the n s ig or whether might e great a security as could be given short of Parliantomtery legislation—namely, that all regulations made should he laid on th e t a bl e within 14 days after the me.eting of P ar li amen t. Th e p ower o f continuing competitive examination w as a s c o mplet e a s words could make it, siobj3ct to thi s p rov il o , th a t th e under house all circumstancessh)uldretainthe suchpos ofer regulations a co g n r considering mightern constitutional t her not be reasonably altered or modified. Tee right hon. gentleman (Sir J. Graham) was authority, and ii he were sitting on the ministerial benches he .woulti say that nothing was so uuadvieable with reference to Crown appointments as to deprive the minister, who was responsible for such appointments, of tbo power of tatting that course with reference to the appointments which mieht be desirable. If the words were retained that responsibility would be taken away, and no alteration could be made without another act of Parliament. (gear.) Mr. WILSON said the argument of the right hon. gentleman (Ur. Walpole) amounted t) this, that the principle (n o n o — o o f r c i o f m a p p e p t i o t i i n o t n m w e n a t s s t be g w o era leftive n up al open to altogether— (no, i d e c t ra e ti the object of the clause would be lost. He should cer tainly vote with his noble friend (Lord J. Russell). The SOLICITOR-GENERAL remarked that the parties who were examined for appointments would have the same security which .they at present possessed, namely, the security of an order is council, until it should be revekhd or modified, and that could not be done without inviting the opinion of the Rouse of Com mons. He - ventured to think that would be a perfectly satisfactory security for the _future, as it had been in times past. All parties were agreed about the principle ofmompetitive examination. But as the clause left the Rouse of Commons the appointments ware vested ip the Crown, whilst the next line presided that the appoint ments should be under a parliamentary title, indc- Pendent of the Crown. That was a constitutional oh j action, and on that groto d be supported the Lords' amendment. (Hear, hear.) Sir E. COLEBROOKE had no confidence in the lane oeage held by the President of the Board of Control as to the watchfulness of in we Parliaments. It was aeainet the abuse of future Parliaments that the house bad to guard, and d t he trusted the house would reject the Lords' ~r. u Mri V. SIIITII thought the principle off' competitive' Sir A. ELTON to move the following resolutions early next session :—" Ist, That this house, considering that the law of church rates is productive of frequent' strife and litigation, and has become a dead letter in an increas ing number of parishes, deems it advisable to prohibit the levying of church rates except for payment of exist ing charges on the rates, and to confide the maintenance of the fabric of the church to the zeal and liberality of the clergy and la.ty ; 2nd. That in order to affold every facility for the free exercise of that zeal and lib,raity, it is expedient that in every parish the incumbent and church wardens should form a corporation, with power, not withstanding the mortmain laws, to take and to bold property grantei, devised,.or bequeathed for the pur poses of providing for , the maintenance of the parish church, and to administer the monies thence arising, as well as all funds annually contributed, for defraying church expenses. 3rdly. Tuat the authority of the pre vent vestry in every parish, with reference to the parish church, should be transferred to anew vestry to be natn,d the ' church vestry,' on consent of parishioners ordinarily worshipping in the parish church and usually contrihut 'lag towards defraying the cost of the repAir , s, the present ves.try retaiLieg its atu.nority in secular affairs. 4thiy. rust churchwardens should be chosen exclusively from the members of the church vestry, and should cease to be overleers. stbly. Tuat all deeds for giving effect to the purpoeei of these resolutions should be free {tom stamp duty." Mr. C. BUTLER, on the part of Mr. Alceck, gave notice of his intention, early next session, to introduce a measure for the cornmu'ation of church rtes. PUBLIC INCOME AND EXPENDITURE. Mr: WILSON gave notice that early next s:-Rision he should move for a select committee to inquire into the state of the funded and unfunded debt, and the public income and expenditure, with a view to the adoption of a system of di-chargiag in time of peace obligations con. , tracted in time of war. THE GOVERNMENT AT THE CAPE. Sir DE L. EVANS gave notice that early next ses sion he should call attention to the expediency of con tinuing the present sys-em cf double government in our Afrilan dependencies at the Cape. JEWELS AND STARS OF TdE ORDER OF THE BATH. _ _ Lird HOTHANI gave notice that early next session he should move an address to the Croxn praying her Majesty would be pleased to al!ow the jewels-and stars of the Knights of the Bath t) remain after their deaths in the possession of their familieF. MILITARY HOSPITAL AND MEDICAL SCHOOL. Sir 11, VERNEY begged to ask—the Royal com mission having shown the nenessity fot a general Mill tary Hospital and Med cal School, and a new hospital being about to be erected at Aldersho ‘ tt—woull her Ma jesty's Government take into consideration whether this hospital might not be used for the purpose contemplated 2 by the Royal commission . General PEEL—Toe question of the establishment of a General Military Hospital and Medical School is under the consideration. of the Government, and it will be dperrosbbaobtlty, and i t necessary maybe hereafter con si d t e o r e b d u d i l d e 9 i a r i ho s pital a i bi e to at establishAl - a medical school there. No money, however, had been voted for the purpose this year. Sir W. DUSNllBBA.RebeFgBge(l3tCo°asTitLthleNSepc);etary of State for the Horne Department whether it was the intention of her Majes'y's Government to take advantage of any vacancies occurring in the sheriffsbips in Scotland, to effect the full accomplishment of the Act 16 and 17 Vie., cap. 92, for diminishing the number of sheriffs in Scotland, by transferring any of the eberiffs of the counties to be united into one sholiff lom to such other sheriffdoins as might became vacant by death or promo tions, and thus race to the public revenue the salaries payaile to the former, as was contemplated at the pass ing of the Act 16 and 17 Vic., cap. 80, by which the I salaries of all the sheriffs in Scotland were increased ? Mr. %VALPULE—I am not aware that any such ex pectation has been held out as has been referred t) in the question of the hon. gentleman. The act of parlia ment is quite clear, its provision being that, with refer ence to fourteen sheriffd.ous held by fourteen dif ferent sheriffs, whenever a vacancy occurs in one, the holder of the office in another should take the duties on himself, so that the number of sheriffs may be gradually.reduced from fourteen to seven in the smaller counties in Scotland. Some vacascies its the smaller u:unties have occurred since the passing of the act, and in six out cf the 14 smaller counties oue sheriff is dis charging the dutiei of two couutieo, which makes a re duction of three out of the 14 sberiffdoms. The question v.hicta I suppose the noble baronet wishes to put is, whe ther if a vacancy occurs in one of the larger counties, the sheriff of one of the smaller ones shall be put into the ° so as to e na bl e t h at small county to b e un i te d to others, filc'' w.th a view to the diminution of the number 7 In any case where a sheriff of a small county is of such known ability asto at u r e e o nd r er L i; na advisable t n o ; promote but I to a larger one, that not advise the crown nut to select the best man to ap t pciint to the larger county merely to facilita.te the redec dbotion cf the number of sheriffs in the smaller countie.. BEACH OF PRIVIL T NER EGAE.—HZ ATTORNEY GEL. iMr. SCIiNEIDER wished to put a question to the 1 hdn and learned gentleman the Attorney-General which involved a clues:int of the breach of the privileges of the houses. It was his intention to.ha7e brought the matter forward at length, bat be did not %Tibia to stand between the proceeding with the India all, d an he should con telit himself with asking a question of the hond ano learned gentleman, and brirg the matter beim the, examination would be carried out much more effectually by Act of Parliament than by order in council. The house then divided. The numbers were— For the Lords' amendment 6O Against 73 —l3 The amendment was consequently disagreed to. Sir DE L. EVANS bad a motion to submit with re gard to the scientific arrangements of the army. He proposed to reinsert the words omitted after the word "examination," as follow "and the candidates who may be found entitled under such regulation shall -be re commended f,r such cadetships according to the order of their proficiency, as shown by such examination." Lord STANLEY said the principle involved in the amendment of the bon. and gallant member was iden tical with the last, and he should therefore not oppose it. The amendMent was then agreed to. The Lords'amendments to clause 53 were disagreed to. On clawe 55, S'r J. GRA.IIAIII objected to the words " preventing or," which had been inserted by the Lords, and ap proved of the spirit and, objsct of the clause as it had left the Crinmons. It was fram-d for the purpose of "repelling" actual invasion. Now all the aggressive wars in I dia had taken place under the pretext of good model cost between 2031. and 30 . 1. ; and its prepare tion often reduced a poor artist to the greatesteambaraes ment and distress. What would be thought of a sovereign who, when ill, threw open his case to public competition, and offered a fee to the physician who gave the best advice? Or what would have been said if the Earl of Shrewsbury had attempted to select counsel by open competition? (Hear.) The fact was, artists felt that this mode of deal ing with them was an insult, because it was one pursued with respect to no other liberal profession. The Nelson Monu ment had been put up to competition—was that satisfac tory? On the contrary it was as conspicuous a failure as could be found in nay capital in Europe. (Elear.) Some of the finest works in art had been produced by competi tion, in the sense of noble emulation. It was the rivalry of Michael Angelo and Raffaelle that lewd produced the Transfiguration and the Raising of Lazarus. The largest amount he had heard named for a monument, independent of a statue, was 10,0,01. ; and he should propose that the remainder of the money should be spent in purchasing models. Ha - believed there was an unworthy jealousy of architec's in the matter of this monument. His noble friend ha 1 an advantage over those who had gone before bim in the assistance of Mr. Cockerell, and it was of ha portenoe in a work of this kind that the sister arts—archi tecture and sculpture—should go together. It was the vice of artists of the present day that they confined themselves to particular branches, instead of doing as the first artists of Italy had done —making themselves acquainted with every branch. He concurred with Lord Lansdowne that this ought not to be treated as a departmental question. He would leave the responsibility, therefore, not to any department, but to the general government. He saw no objection to leave the question toe jury of artists In his reselutien he embodied the pro; oeition that the best way to create emulation would be to select a number of distinguiehe I artists, and to pay them for their trouble, and time, and talent, in preparing models With regard to extending the competition to foreign artists, though he should have preferred to make that competition as aide as possible, it was doubtful whether, under all the circnmstanc sit would be necessary to go beyond the limits of these kingdoms Tney had plenty of money in hand to remunerate them, and if a number of the most distinguished artists of the country were selected, with the understanding that they were to send in designs, for which, whether they were successful or net, they would be paid, they would create a noble emulation, and something would be produced worthy of the country. Mr. B. HOPE urged that it was desirable 'to have adopted the principle of competition in this matter; at the same time that system of unlimited competition often led to unsatisfactory results, and be gave several amtesing illustrations of the results of the system. But in these days much must be hazarded to obtain much, and efforts should be made to induce our great artists to compete for national objects. Without analysing the scheme of his noble friend he thought it was such an one as called for the modified censure implied in the motion of his right hon. friend. Why should action be taken on this subject now at this late period of the session, and why should his noble friend be called to adopt the questionable and expensive course of a third competition ? The design of Mr. Stephens which had been chosen, though rough in execution, bare marks of genius, and he was one of those artists that ought to be encouraged ; besides which he was a prizsman, though not the first. Under all the circumstances it seemed to him that his noble frien I had come to a wise decision, and he would urge on his right hon. friend not to press his motion ; an I he trusted that the Chief Com missioner of Works would be able to produce such a monu ment to the Duke of Wellington as after ages might ap prove. Mr. CONINGHA.M said he was at a lose to know what were the views of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. S. Wort ley). The right hon. gentleman had in the first place expressed admiration of the plan for the monument which had bean adopted ; then he objected to competition for such purposes; and he concluded by proposing to throw the designs open to competition. Mr. S. WORTLEY—OnIy to a limited number of com petitors. Mr. CONINGITAM had understood the right hon. geatleman to propose a further competition. The monu ment selected was the work of a young artist, but it exhi bited great ingenuity of design and great vigour of execution. It w at first proposed to place it in one of the arches of St. Paul's, but the site had now been changed to the Con sistory Court ; but as the Consistory Court was of the same height as the arches, it would be equally well adapted for that position. He congratulated the noble lord on the selection he had made, and he hoped that the right-hon. gentleman would not press his motion. Lord J. MANNERS had heard with much gratification the views which had been expressed by hon. gentlemen whose opinions wore far better entitled to weight than his own upon questions of art. He thought that, after the ob servations of the hon. member for Maidstone (Mr. Hope), and the hon. member; for Brighton (Mr. Coninglealc), his right hon. friend the member for Bute (lir. S. Wortley) must be satisfied there were gentlemen who were at least as competent as himself to form a judgment on this subject, who approved the course adopted by Her Majesty's Govern ment. .He was, however, happy to find that upon several important points he agreed with his right hoe. friend, and that they only had the misfortune to differ upon matters of minor importance. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Wort ley) had said that he th ug it the selection of a site was most fortunate; that, so far as the prize designs were con cerned, he conceived that the Government had chosen the best—and that they had taken the most valuable advice they could obtain. He (Lord J. Manners) pat it to the house whether they would now take the matter out of the hands—feeble as he admitted they were—of those who were responsible for its conduct, and elect themselves into a committee of taste to upset all the arrangements which had been made, and to defer for an indefi period the erection of a national monument to the Duke of Welling ton. He hail the misfortune to differ with his right bon. friend the member for Bute on some minor points. The ight hon. gentleman admitted that out of the 83 designs submitted to competition the best had been selected, but ho said that the terms on which competition was invited were such as could aive the competitors uo reasonable hope that any one of them would be selected. He (Lord J. Manners) certainly did not put the same construction upon the terms of the notice, which were as fol ows : "The Commissioners of her Majesty's Works and Pub lic Buildings give notice that it is the intention of her Ma jesty's Government to erect a monument in St. Paul's Cathedral, London, to the memory of the late Duke of Wellington, and that they are prepared to receive designs for the same fro n artists of all countries." Isis right hon. friend might, however, rely upon the con cluding paragraph of the notice : "If, however, the artist to whom the highest premium may be awarded shall be employe 1 to execute his design he will not be entitled to receive any premium." His sight hon. friend had put upon this sentence the inter pretation of a lawyer, but he (Lord J. Manners) believed its meaning was that if any artist who had not received the highest prize was selected he would be entitled to a premium in addition - to the prize for the model. He sail that a great country bad no rght to invite the artists of all the world to compete unless they were resolved that that competition should lead to some substantial re sult, always provide that amon g the designs sent in there was one or more Which were worthy of adoption. (Hear.) It all turned upon that question. Now, who was to decide this point? Was his right lion. friend or anybody else in this house to say that out of the 83 designs sent in not one was worthy of being executed? [Lord Elcho—" The judges said so."] They said no such thing. They did not, iudeed, declare that any one of the designs was worthy of erection; but though they left this point in the dark, they ad led : " We cannot at the same time forbear suggesting that before any design is finally adopted by the Government, it would be desirable, considering the peculiarity of the situa tion contemplated, and that it essentially differs from that of all the other monuments now existing in the cathedral, the opinion of some experieneed artists should be called for, who would be better judges of the local effect than we consider oureedves to be ; more especially as Mr. Cockerel!, the only one of the appointed judges professionally con nected with the arts, though we have derived from him valuable assistance and information in the progress of the examination, has declined on that account taking a part in the ultimate decision." It was quite clear that this, the only recommeada 4 ion made, authorised the consideration of the local effect Which wonl , l be produced by the design selected, and su gested that the Government should confer with those persons most competent to give advice before arriving at a final decision. Now, this was exactly the course he had taken. In the first instance he had satisfied his own mind, as well as he could, that some one design was worthy of adoption, and having dine so he invited the gentleman to whom re ference had been made in terms of such deserved cowman elution carefully to examine the prize de ages. He (Lord J, Manners) had not indicated the bias of his own mind, but Mr. Penrose informed him that design No. 18, which he had previously selected, was the one which, in his opinion, best suited the locality, and was most deserving of erection. He thought he should have grossly neglected his duty if he had not availed himself of Mr. Penrose's as sistance ; and if his right hen. friend meant to say that he had any previous knowledge of this gentleman he laboured under a comple' e mistake, His (Lord J. Manners') know lodge of Mr. Penrose was, if he might use the term, purely professional; but he felt that the recommendation of the judges was a sound one, and he knew he could not act upon it in a more satisfactory manner than by calling for the valuable advice on which he had acted. Now, he was au thorised by Mr. Penrose to say that he should view it as a great misfortune if this house were in any way to put a stop to the proceedings instituted with respect tothis mo nument. He put it to the house, therefore, after all that had transpired, considering e _as Ins right hon. friend hail pointed out, that six years had elapsed, and that yet no monument had been erected, whether they would take- the course of throwing the whole mat ter into inextricable con fusion by adopting the proposal now made. The right hon. gentleman had to certain extent sketched the proceedings which had taken place, and he would venture to describe the steps by which,they hail arrived so slowly and unsatis factorily at their present position. In 18;4 the then First 1 Commissioner of Works invited a limited competition for this monument, and selected four, sculptors of undoubted eminence—Mr. Bailey, Mr. Foley, Baron Marochetti, and Mr. Gibson. ;Of these gentlemen two declined to enter into the competition, and Baron Marochetti returned this answer to Sir William Molesworth : " I am flattered that my name has lieen placed on the list of sculptoe' a from whom it has been proposed to select one to execute the monument to the Duke of Wellington in St. Paul's Cathedral. I hasten to express to you my thanks for the honour thus conferred upon me, but I must decline to engage in. - a...competition in which success would be only lees paiufnl than failure. If, however, the proposed competition should not produce the desired result, and if in such an event I should be judged worthy of employment on the work, I should with pride bestow on it the utmost efforts of my art, no less on account of the man who is to be commemorated, than of the plane the monument is to occupy." Mr. Gibson, writing from Rome, sent an answer much more curt in its terms:— " I have the pleasure to acknowledge the honour of your communication to me respecting a monument to the me mory of his Greco the late Duke of Wellington. I beg to say that I anfalways ready to untlertake any work of irn pccomrtpanetcietifcon. for my conniey, but, decline to send d esi g ns in - Did his right hon. friend-propose to ask those two eminent men again to compete? {llr. S. Wortley.-- " Not to corn- Pete] Then, in the.narrie of common sense , wh at were they to do ? [Mr. S. Wortley.—".To emula,eo."] To emu late ! Well, he was a plain man, and could not apprehend those nice distinctions, nor did lie think the sculptors would be less puzzied by them than he was. (Hear) Did his right hon. frieud mean to say that the offer of 30' /. a cbcaidtlayi n o t f y t c h f o a s e s a piece would make all this distinction between competition and emulation ? He (Lord J. Manners) net think so would induce them to enter into a competition which the invitation of the Go vernmentemma l nG s and Mr. Foley, both sculptors of great eminence, did not a u t m sel f lp m to o r n s e a y s . to iameiee that the decline this invitation. —They entered into the limited had not induced them to enter. But Mr. Bailey competition proposed, but what was the result ? The Goya nment of the day,- no doubt rightly, decided that neither of the 4 designs wsD w9itby , of being ewated. "preventing" hostile movements. As instances of this, he might mention the wars in Affghanistan and Scinde. If the words inserted by the Lords were allowed to re main the clawe would be rendered altogether nugatory. When the Sikhs passed the Sutlej Lord Hardinge "repelled" Ihem—drove them back again. That was a proceeding quite in co3formity with the clause aA it originally stood. Fanciful threatened invasions met by a hostile movement beyond the frontier was precisely the clurse of pro,leeding which had for the last century led to the most expensive and pri fligate wars. He pro po-ed that the Lords' amendments be disagreed to. Sir F. S VIITEf observed that Lord Hardinge was in c'ined ti believe that the Sikhs intended to invade our territories, and if he had acted upon that, and attacksll them before they crossed the river, the war would have been ended much sooner.. General CODRINGTON-said there could be no doubt that in the case of the assemblage f a force intending to invade our territories, to attack that force vvoull be our bast defence. Lord STANLEY did not think that the preventing of actual invasion would meet such a case as the Affghan war, because the Afighan war was carried on at a great distance from our then frontier. He did not think that any construction that could be put on these " Preventing or-repelling actual invasion," could be he'd to refer to the case of occupation of a country a thou sand miles from our own frontier, and which we occupied because there was a chance that another country might otherwise obtain mfluence there, and 100 years hence iavade our territory from that - point. In truth, how ever, the value of the clause consisted much more in its being a declaration of the intention and opinions o Parliament than ie any binding force of the words them selves, because the other word , , " or under other sudden and urgent necessity," were sufficient to cover almost every thing, and they rendered alinost superfluous . the words in question. Mr. RICH contended that by insertiog the words, preventing or" they gave power to make unjust attacks on neighbouring states. Colonel SYKES thought that the phraseology of the words of an act of Parliament was not likely to prevent wars in India. Pa-t history told them that every Governor-General somehow or other found himself engaged in a war, and the home Government always felt themselves compelled to support him. The house then divided— For the Lords' amendment . 95 Against it Majority Several other of the amendments were then agreed to. Lord S,anley, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Solicitor-General, Lord John Russell, Sir J. Graham, and one or two others, were then appointed a_committee to confer with the Lords on the amendments which had not been agreed to. - - - PRINCE EDWARD'S ISLAND LOAN BILL. The order for ihe second reading of this bill was dis charged. TRUSTEES, MORTGAGES, eto., DILL. The order fur the atcend reading of this bill was alo discharged. LEASES A '413 SALES OF SETTLED ESTATES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Oa the order of the day for going into cimmittee on tLis bill, Mr. AYRTON said he should Ike to have some fur- Vier exp anations from the'Attorney-General respecting this bill, because, when the was in its last sage, a question was asked whether it was intended by this bill to enable Sir T. M. Wilson to enclose Hampstead Heath, and the.Attorney-General said there was no in tention. Since thee, however, the hon. member for Gloucestershire had b iven notice of his intention to move the omission of a clause, the omission of which would have that effect. • He thought before they went into committee they ought to have an assurance that the Government would not carry out that object. It that question were brought on now, it would take the house by surprise. The ATTORNEY GENERAL raid he stated the other night with perfect sincerity tbat he bad no inten tion whatever, in cartyiug this bid tnrough the house, of introducing, or being the medium of introducing, any alteration in the law which would have the effect appre hended by the hon. gentleman. Mr. GILPIN said they ought to have an assurance from the Government that they would not support this Many who hal depended ou its not being br e , ght f and were not present. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL observed that he had no ; utbority from her Majesty's Government to give any assurance of the kind, but he had no in ention to support such a proposition. Mr. ROEBUCK did not object to the proposition, but there were circumstances under which even a good thing ought net to be done, and he should oppose taking the hou-e by surprise. ' Mr. RULT said no one would more deprecate taking the house by Surprise than he should, and under the circumstances he should withdraW his amendment. After a few words from Mr. WHITESIDE and Mr. Cox the house went into committee, and the various causes were agreed to. Mr. ROLT observed, with reference to the 21st clause, the object t f which is to prevent the act applying to cases in which application has been made to Pa rliament, that though fur the reasons he had stated he ahoui I not now move the omission of the clause, he should take the first opportunity of remedying the injustice which he conceived that clause inflicted. Mr. MALINS remarked that the clause in reality was aimed at an individual. It was exceptional legisl a Lion, and was unjust. The house then reenmed. COWLEY'S CHARITY BILL. The - Lords' reasons for di-agreeing to the Omen:ions' amendments to teis bill were considered, and it was re solved that the amendments by this house be not inuisted The International Patent Right Bill passed through upoa. committee, was read a third time, and passed. Tne Administration of Oaths by Couaimttees Bill was read a third time and passed. VACCINATION (IRELAND) 'BILL. Certain of the Lerds' amendments were not agreed to, and a committee was appointed to draw up reasons wby the bonze ~i ssented. THE WELLINGTON MONUMENT. Mr S. WORTLEY called the attention of the house to the competition relative to the monument to the late Duke of Wellington, and moved " that, by the terms of the c .m -petition under which the models for the monument pro posed to be erected to the memory of the late Duke of Wel lioeten in St. Paul's Cathedral were lately exhibited in Westminster Hall, the artists competing were no entitled to expect that any of their worksovould be executed at the expense of the nation unless on the ground of their intrin sic merit ; and whereas the judges had not recommended for execution any of the works so exhibited, and a new and wholly different site had since been determined upon for this great national monument, it was therefore expe dient that a limited number of distinguished artists should be further employed by her Majesty's Government to fur nish_ models with special reference to the new site and altered circumstances, and that those artists should be re moderated for their labour, and their models purchased for the country." The right hon. gentleman observed that in bringing forward this resolution, he was only express log the strong feeling of dissatisfaction which prevailed both in the house and out of doors with reference to the course which he believed was about to be adopted. No thing could be further from his wish, however, than to embarrass his noble friend (Lord J. Ajanners) ; on the con trary, be hoped to afford a valuable assistance to his noble friend and the Government by enabling them to ascer tain with more precision what the opinion of the public really was on the subject. The late competition had not produced a single model or design which had been adopted for execution ; but he understood his noble friend to en trust the work not to the that prizeman, Mr. Marshall, but to Mr. Stephens, a prize:Din who did not stand higher than the sixth. That was a course which he did notlesitate to say had filled every one with suiprise. It was true that by the terms of the competition the Government were not bound to give the commission to the gainer of the first pries ; but an intimation was certainly given to the com petitors that such would probably be the cane. He under stem 1 that what was proposed was to adopt Mr. Stephens' design, but to employ Mr. Marshall to execute the sculp ture. He (Ur. Wortley) was quite,prepared to agree with his noble friend that Stephens 6 model was a very graceful one ; but at the same time Mr. Stephens 'a name was new to the world both as an architect and as a sculp tor. It would surely, therefore, be a very bold thing to entrust to the mere designer of a graceful model the reepon sibility of carrying out a work like the present. The truth was the judges all concurred that there was not one of the models exhibited that was worthy of being executed ; and they had been deterred from reporting in those very terms by nothing but consideration for the artists. Since the designs had been exhibited, the site of the p ro p osed monu ment had been changed. Before, it was p ro p osed to p lace it under one of the nave niches ; but now it bad been de termined to devote to the purpose on e of the chapels of the cathedral. He (Mr. S. Wortley) rejoiced at the change; and ho hoped that,' at no distant polled, monuments to other distinguished men would be erected in subordina tion to, but still associated with, tha t of the Great Cap tain. Among those none could be more fitting then a monument to Lord Raglan, and be hoped that the national gratitude a ould ere long do justice to the memory of one who had sacrificed his life to, the public service at an age when ho might have looked .6rward to many years of wal e:treed repose. '(Cheers.) . Jut the first instance , applica- I tious to furnili - designs Mr . the Wellington Monument had been made to four of the, meat eminentartists in this coun try --Mr. Bailey, MreFeley,iMi. Gibson, and Baron Mare -1 ehetti. The two first complied with the request; but the 1 too last declined, on the ground that they slid not take part in competition of any kind, Baron Marochetti re in Irking that in a competition to succeed was only less pain ful than to fail. Messrs. Bailey and Foley's designs were not considered sitisfactory, and they applied to tho go vernment for more' Precise information as to what was wanted. The government - of the day , i nstead of answer ing the question, determined oar a public competition. Ile (Mr. Woolley) did not altogether regret that the com petition had taken- place, but he must, at the same time, express his opinion that such a mode of proceeding v:as only unfair to the profesaion, but absolutely:And, P- Now, in the office of the First Commissioner of Works was He thought the best thing for the Minister would be to a most valuable and important reply from the pen of Mr. call into council all the distinguished artists, whether they Bailey to the letter which announced this decision to him. joined in the competition or not. His noble friend would Mr. Bailey pointed out all the evils which must result to do well to put aside his present design, and ask the artists art if, when a limited competition was entered upon, none of this and foreign countries who had othad.not succeeded of the designs sent in were selected for execution. He 'to send their designs, not with a view td obtaining_ prizes , (Lord J. Manners) wished he hal found it possible to or any such regulations. Under these circumstances, present to the house prior to this debate Ur. Bailey's let- there was nothing to injure the pride of any distinguished ter and other papers relating to this subject, but as they man. It would be far better to have no work at all than were rather in the nature of private letters than of pub- have a work which was not worthy of the nation. They lie papers; he hardly felt justified in so d dug. The whole had better say distinctly that they had found no one Man tone and tenour of Mr. B communication, how- who could erect such a work that was worthy the nation, ever, were such as would make him very reluctant to in- than have a statue which was not worthy of the nation. vita any limited competition without a clear decision Mr. MACARTHY remarked that there was no instance beforehand that, whatever might be merits of the designs of a man on horseback having been allowed to enter a sent in, one or the other should b, selected. (Hear, hear.) temple. Mr. .Bailey pointed out that by inviting artists to enter Mr. WORTLEY said he understood that under no cir into such a competition, and then throwing their designs curnstances would the authorities of St. Paul's allow a over and instituting an unlimited competition, you gave to figure of a person on horseback to be erected in St. Paul's. the second competitors the inestimable advantage of pilfer- He did not undervalue hr. Penrose, but he did not think lug ideas from those who hid first sent in designs. (Hoar.) he was so well known that the public would like to have Bat now apply the objection taken with so much force by the work committed to him and Mr. Stephens. Through- Mr. Bailey in a case where only two designs were in ques- out tbis debate he had been represented as recommending tion to this new proposal of a second limited competition a second limited competition. He recommended no such after no less than 83 designs had been submitted for corn- thing. What he recommended was that they should, as petition. (Hear.) Was it not clear that those whose de- his hon. friend the member for Pontefract said, set aside signs had thus stood the test of public criticism might all that bad taken place at the competition, which had fairly say, " You have no right now to hand over the corn- utterly failed in producing any worthy design, but that petition to a limited number of gentlemen, selected by the they should excite emulation by employing the principal favouritism of the Government of the day, when there is artists who were known in Europe to send in designs, a possibility that they may pick here and there from the making it certain that tho best design would be ado p ted, designs which have cost us BO much thought, labour, time, and then ho had the best reason for believing that there and money, expended by some of the poorest and most was not one of them who would not produce a design. struggling artists in the world ?" He had heard that sea- The house then divided— tence of the speech of the right hon. gentleman with the For the motion. greatest pleasure. It was just, and be asked the House of Against• it Commons to act in accordance with it. His right hon. Majority friend pointed out what these struggling artists were called SUBALTERNS OF THE ARMY. upon to do—what sacrifices of time, labour, anti money Colonel FREESTUN then moved that an humble ad were entailel upsn them ; and he asked th 4, in return, dress be presents tto her Majey, praying that she - will'be the House of Commons should not, without the most graciously pleased to take into consideration the unfivour- weighty considerations, set aside their designs. He asked able position of the subalterns of the army with a view his right hon. friend whether he thought he heti assigned of affording them relief. The expenses to which subalterns any satisfactory r: aeon for departing on this occasion from were put amounted to 1571. a year, while their pay was what ought to be the general rule? They bad not heard only 951. Other expenses were thrown upon them by re his right hon. friend say that he was himself of opinion moved from place to place. He would suggest that an that the design which had been selected was unworthy of addition of is. 6d. a day should be made to the pay of the being completed. The right hon. gentleman told them subalterns, which would only entail an increased expense that he bad privately canvassed all the judges, and that of 8:,0001. a year. they had all told him they signed their report without in- Mr. P. O't3RIEN seconded the motion. ten ling to have their approbation of any one of the Sir W. FRASER said the motion met with his entire designs acted upon. All he could say was, that if concurrence. He thought that great relief might be afforded such were the case, it was the duty of the to subalterns by the Government taking upon itself the judges to have made that clear before all the world. furnishing of their rooms, which might be done at a com (Hear, hear.) He could find no such declaration in their paratively small cost. He considered, too, that subalterns report. On the contrary, after reading the report with the ought nut to be called upon to subscribe to the regimental most minute care he could bestow, he had arrived at the bands. Fe regarded the mess as a valuable institution, as opposite conclusion. In private the judges had not told tending to promote a good feeling amongst brother officers, him anything of the sort, and he thought the House of • and he thought that their pay ought to be such as to enable Commons would do well not to act upon these private re- them to afford the expense. At the same time he suggested commendations, which those who made them declined to that it would be better to bring forward the subject on put in print. (Hear.) As he believed the report of the another and more favourable occasion. (Hear, hear.) • judges, he felt fully justified in the course which he had Sir F. SMITH moved the adjournment of the debate. taken ; and the more he gathered the opinions of those Mr. WEfirHEA.D and Sir W. COMINGTON expressed who were able to speak with authority upon the subject, their opinion that the pay of subalterns was ludicrously the more he was fortified in the decision at which he had inadequate. arrived. He believed that the opinion which he had al- General PEEL trusted the gallant colonel would see ready quoted of Mr. Penrose was shared by men in the that at this period of the session it was impossible to en highest position in artistic circles. He believed that if tertain the subject, and that he would bring forward the the Rouse of Commons del not now interfere her Ma- subject again early next session. (Hear, hear.) jetty's Government would be able at no distant period to Colonel FREESTUN then withdrew his motion. fford the gratification to the people of this country of see- EQUITABLE COUNCILS OF CONCILIATION. ing; in the noblest site which St. Paul's Cathedral pre- Mr. MACKINNON obtained leave to bring in a bill on stinted a monument erected worthy alike of the great ma n this subject. whom it commemorated and the building in which it was The house adjourned at twenty minutes to 1 till 4 o'clock placed. (Cheers.) But if at the fag end of the session, in on Thursday. a house so thin as that which he was now addressing, his tight hon. friend induced the House of Commons to pass this resolution, it would paralyse the hands of the Execu tive and of the artists as well, and trace over again the un fortunate history of so many of the public monuments of England. (Hear, hear.) The Government would be re luctant, under those circumstances, to take upon them selves any responsibilityin those thorny matters of art, and artists would be disgusted at the manner in which they were treated in being asked to enter again into a limited competition without any certainty that any one of the com petitors would be employed. They had been invited to a limited eompetition with no result; they had been invited to an unlimited competition with worse than no result ; and it was propose t to invite them to a second limited competition with no certain prospect—be would say, with no hope—of any fortunate result. His right hon. friend indulge! in a dream if ho supposed the Prime Minis ter, burdens I as he was with affairs of state, would under take to go from studio to studio. attended by a jury of artists, all differing in opinion, all anxious to carry out their own views, and some very possibly biassed by per sonal considerations in favour of one or other of the com peting sculptors. The Prime Minister must from necessity devolve the responsibility upon the Minister whose duty it was, from the nature of his office, to make the selection in a case of this kind; and he trusted and almost be lieved his right hon. friend, whose whole speech was characterised with so much kindness and courtesy to him self, did not intend to press his motion to a dividon. Ho thought the house would be ill-advised if they passed the resolution, and he entreated them not to agree to it., but to leave the matter in the hands of the responsible Ministers of the Crown, who, after two competitions, felt themselves in a position to arrive at a final decision, which they be lieve I would be satisfactory to the country. (Ile r, hear ) His hon. friend the member for Brighton had alluded to the expediency of placing on the proposed site a model of the full size of the monument. The proposal was most a Imitable, and should he be intrusted with the future prosecution of the task it was his intention to propose to Mr; Stephens that a model of that character should be erected in the Consistory Chapel, so that before anything was finally decided thbse who took au interest in the ques tion might have an opportunity of examining it. • If • the result of that exhibition should be to show that Mr. Stephens was not competent to execute the chief figure of the design, it was the wish of Mr. Stephens that Her Majesty's Government should only leave to him the execu cation of the design and appoint some other artist to exe cute the figure. Frankly, he had no fear himself that a man of genius, as Mr. Stephens had shown himself to be, would fail in that articular; but, in justice to the modesty and good feeling of a young and rising artist, he mentioned that Mr. Stephens had expressed no objection to the proposal, and that it met with his entire approbation. (Hear) If the House thought him unworthy of the position in which Her Majesty had been pleased to place him be should of course bow to their decision ; but ho thought he had shown that the tour: e which he had adopted was consistent with tho views of those who bad the best means of forming a sound opinion. He was satisfied himself that if no inter ference now took place, and if the Government were per mitted to carry out those intentions which they had indi cated, the result would be success; but if, on the other hand, impediments were thrown in the way, there would be interminable delay, constant bickerings, and their sue ' eessors would say there had been a complete mistake in the management of that which ought to be one of the greatest monuments of a great nation (Cheers.) Mr. CO WPEIt said, the reasons assigned by Lord John Manners for the course he had taken were not satisfac tory to his mind. When competition was invited pre ference should be given to the most successful. The monu ment now to be erected was not that competed for ; if tie signs were called for adapted to the new site, a far better would be obtained than the one chosen. Mr. STIRLING was not convinced by the arguments of. Mr. Wortley, and should vote against the motion. Lord ELCHO said the q untion they had to consider was not so much a question of art as a question of common sense. Ho could not agree in the opinion that his noble friend had adopted the wisest course in reference to this monument. Lord Lansdowne had stated in the House of Lords that none of the models possessed such commanding merit as to win the decided approbation of the judges, and that he believed was the opinion of the pubic. (Hear.) Why then should they ho compelled to adopt any one of these models ? The competition was a signal failure. His noble. friend con demned his own scheme, for he did not propose to give the execution of the work to the first p:izemen, but the sixth and not him alone, but to him and two others, namely, Mr. Penrose and Mr. Marshall, There was an of i saying, that too much cooking Toiled the broth, and he was afraid that this might be the result in the present instance. He believed the truth to be that his noble friend was fond -of a quiet life, and that for that reason he gave to three persons instead of one the execution of this monument. He denied that they were bound in spirit, or in letter, or in honour, to accept any of the designs submitted to public exhibition. (Hear, hear.) He was in favour of the principle of competition, and it was because he was in favour of competition that he thought the Government acted on a bad principle in this matter. The object was to erect a suitable monument to the memory of the Duke of Wellington. He did not think the Government adopted the bast course to secure that object. He was afraid that the result might bo the erec tion of a monster monument, such as that in Hyde Park. Sir B. HALL said, when he held the office ef First Com missioner of Works, he suggested to the Government that they should have recourse to unlimited competition with regard to the monument proposed to be erected to the memory of the Duke of Wellington There had previously been a limited competition. as stated by his hon. friend (Mr. Wortley), under which Ur. Foley and Mr Bailey had sent in designs which were not deemed worthy of adoption by the G vernment, Then it was that be (Sir B. Hall) proposed to resort to unlimited competition ; and, looking at the object in _view, and the large sum of money that was to 13 i expended upon it, he thought that the best prin ciple on which' the house or the Government could act. (Hear, hear.) Allusion had been male to the terms of the competition issued from the Office of Works, an I to their being strongly guarded. They were peculiarly guarded, because he-folt, where the competition was aeso- Intely unlimited, it might be possible in a case of this kind that persons might be capable of sending in very pretty design's, calculated to strike the eye, but who might be incapable of car-tykes out those designs in marble or any other material . which might be decided upon. (Hear, hear.) The suggestion he had made resulted in the ex hibition of designs which were seen in Westminster-hall. They had two exhibitions cf designs there, and he never saw - so great a contrast as that between the designs exhibited for the public offices and those fur the Wel lington Monument. (Hear,- hear ) He admitted that the exhibition of designs for the Wellington Monument was a failure. That opinion was confirmed by the judges, and, he believed, by the public at large. (Hear.) In a competition of that nature he thought it was the duty of the Government to give the execution of the design to one of the successful competitors, provided—and he wished that to be understood—there was the conviction on the part of those who bad to decide, that the talent'displayed in the competition and the known practical experience of the competitors, afforded to the public a sufficient necurity for the successful and pr o p er execution of the work in the event of its being entrusted to any one of them. With re gard to the site, he begged to remind the house that at first the only site that could be procured was under ne of the arc h es . Since that time the Consistory Court bad become vacant, and it had been placed at the disposal of the noble lord. Now, it had struck biro very forcibly that the de sign which had been prepared for one part of the buildirig could not with any propriety be put, up in another part of the building for which it was in no way adapted. (Hear.) He believed it would be extremely difficult so to alter the design as to make it suitable for the Consistory Court. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord had stetod that before any thing was doge he would have the model exhibited ; he hoped that in the meantime he would reconsider the whole subject. With that understanding he thought they should leave the responsibility with the Government. . He knew the extreme ttifficultiesevhich the noble lord had to undergo in this ,department, and, be would be the last man to do anything to increase thosedifficulties. He entreated bite, however, to consider fully.ibis 'subject, and if he should see that the model as now designed really could not be put into the chapel with effect, then let him communicate either with them:weariful competitors or with other artists, so that the monument might 'be put up as speedily as pos sible. (Hear, hear.) Mr. M. MILNES was afraid they must come to the con elusion that the competition for the best design for this monument was a failure, and he thought they should consider what was bait to be done outside that mapetitiou. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. Jollifie, Sir W. Taylor, Colonel BIRTHS. COLLIER—On the 25th . inat., at .itepthill-square, the wife of John Pycroft Collier, Eaq., of a son. - DE BY LANDT—On the 24th inst., at 33, Brompton-cres • cent, the Countess Alfred de Bylandt, of a son. Pon - rsiuo_unr—:On the 24th inst., at Hurstbourne-Pg lll -' the Countess of Portsmouth, of a daughter. PAST DR—OP the 27th inst., at Hill Farm, long DittoO! Airs. Henry Pasteur, of a daughter. MARRIAGES. BROMMEAD —LAKE— On the 24th inst:, at St. Pencil s Church, Jonathan Crawford Bromehead, of Old Brood' street, and of Highgate, Esq., to Ellen, second daugh7 tor of the late John Lake, Esq., of Lincoln's-inn. STRIDE DoRELI—On the2lst inst. atSt M a thi as Churer Stoke Newington, W. S. Stride, 'Esq., of W e st Smith field, to Priscilla, only daughter of the late John Dore°, Esq., of Kingston, Oxon. DEATHS. BRAWN—On the 26th lust ,at Cookhara Deane, Berl‘ ° ' Anne,- wife of James D. Brown, aged 43. CHANCELLOR—On the 25th inst., at Boston, Lincoltishi re i Charles Chancellor' eldest sou'of Thomas Chancellor, ° Kensington, Kingston - on-Thames, and Beading, B°1;1' aged 41. Dourisr—On the 25th May, at Murree, Capt. Henry M e ! ° . Doris,7th N. 1., eldest and only surviving sun of Jot. Alex. Doris, Esq., late Member of the Council of D OW MAEKEs_—On the 25th inst., Mr. Thomas Maikes, ..f 26 ' Foley-street, Portland-Place. ONsr,ow —On the 27th May, at Madras, Adolphus, 133"!1., Onslow-,-2d Madras E.L.1.; eldest surviving son of Mar G. W. Onslow, Madras Artillery, aged 26. b TARLETox-- -Oa the 25th inst., George Ilawkes Ob er Tarleton, Esq., aged 48. LONDON: Printed and Published by MIJILDO fu l - jl4 ' of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at-Tho SU* alD o e* 14"° ; 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy. in the COG?'" of iti.bileses, Wednee tar, sTtily 28,1.858.. HOUSE OF COMMONS—JULY 27. GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (No. 3) BILL. Order for consideration of Lords' amet dments read. Amend ment, page 9, at the end of clause 27, read a second time : —Amendment proposed, to insert after the words " com municated to," the words " a committee consisting of • four :"—Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and negatived :—Motion made, and question put, • " That this house doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment ;"—The house divided; Ayes 38, Noes 106. AYES-38. Adeane, H. Greene, John Russell, Lord J. • Anderson, Sir J. Gregson, Samuel Smith, A. Berkeley, lion. H. Grenfell, Charles W. Sykes, Colonel B ake, J. Griffith, C. Thompson, General B mham-Carter, J. Knatelibull-Huguessen Thornely, T. Clay, James Mangles, B. D. Verney, Sir H. Coninghain, W. Meigund, Lord White, James Cox, W. Nisbet, R. P. Williams. W. Dunbar, Sir W. Pigott, F. Willoughby, J. Dunlop, A. Puller, Christopher Wilson, J. East, Sir J. Rawii^son, Sir U. Elphinstone, Sir J. Rich, 11. TELLERS. Elton, Sir A. H. Ridley, George Ayrton, A. Forster, Charles Roupell, W. Bowyer, G. NOES-106. Arbuthnott, Gen. H. Gilpin, C. Pakington, Sir J. Bagsh.tw, Robert Graham, Sir J. Palmerston, Viscount Bailey, C. Greer, Samuel Patten, Col. Baillit ' li. Grogan, Edward Peel , Gen. Bernard, W. Gurdon, Brampton Pilkington, J. Bass, M. Hall, General John Pritchard, J. Beach, W. Hamilton,' Lord" Claud Scott, Major Beecrolt, G. Hamilton, G. A. Sibthorp, Major Blakemore, T. Hankey, T. Smith, V. Boldero, Col. H. G. Hardcastie, Joseph Smith, Sir F. Brady, J. Hardy, G. Spooner, R. Bridges, Sir B. Hatchet!, John Stanhope, J. Bruce, El. A. Hope, Alexander Stanley, Lord Buchanan, Walter Hallam. Lord. Stapleton,John Burghley, Lord Hume, W. Stuart, Colonel * . Bader, ,ir J. Jervoise, Sir J. Sullivan. Michael Butler, C. S. Johnstone, H. B. Turner, J. A. Cairns. I. Kali, Sir F Vance, John Campbell, It. Kinnaird, A. Vansl ttart, W. Cecil, Lord .R. Knight, F. Verner, Sir W. Cla-k, J. Knox, Col. B. W. Villiers, C. • Codrington, Gen. Langton, H. G. Walcott, Admiral. • Colebrooke, Sir E. Lennox. Lord H. G. Walpole. S. Col-ins, T. Lov ;line. Lord Warren, S. Cooper, E. J . Lowther, Col- H. C. Watkins, Col. Corry, IL T. L. Lygon, Hon. F. Westhead, Joshua Cross, R. A. Lytton, Sir E. Whiteside, J. Davie, Sir IL K. F. Mazartney, George Whitmore, U. Disraeli, B. Manners, Lord J . Willcox. B. Duff, M. Maxwell, J. Willyams, E. Evans, Sir De Lacy Mills, Arthur Yorke, B. Far mhar, Sir M. Naas, Lord Young, A. Fitzgerald, W. H. S. Newark, Viscount Forrester, Col. Newport, Viscount Freestun, Colonel Norreys, Sir D. Gard, It. Northcote, Sir S. Garnett, William O'Brien, P. TKLLE3B. Amendment in page 14, line 23, read a second time :—Ques tion put, "'That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment :"—The house divided; Ayes 60, " Noes 73. • _. _ _ . _. AYES-60. Adderley, C. - Hamilton, Lord. C. Patten, Col. W. • " Bailey, C. Hamilton, G. A. Peel, Gen. Bernie, H. Harty, G. Bolt, J. Bernard, Col. Hope, I. Sibthorp, Major Beach, W. Hotham, Lord Smith, Sir F. Beecrott, G. Home, W. Spooner, R. Blakemore, T. Kelly, Sir F. Stanhope, J. polder°, Col. H. G. Knox. Col. B. W. Stanley, Lord Bridges, Sir B. Lennox, Loid H. Stirling, William Burghley, Lori Lovaine, Lord • Sturt, Col. Cairns, H. • • Lygon, Hon. F. Vansittart. W. Codrington, General_ Lytton, Sir G. Verner,Sir W. ) Corry, H. T. L. Maeartney, G. Walcott, Admiral Cubitt, W. Malins, it. Walpole, S. ~ Disraeli, B. Manners, Lord J. Warren, 8. • t East, Sir J. Milnes, H. Whiteside. J. Farquhar, Sir M. Naas, Lord Whitmore, 11. . , Fitzgerald, W. U. S. Newport, Viscount wittioughoy,z.• : Forester, Col. North, Col. J. ristitzs,S. Gard, It. North cote, sir S. Jolliffe, Sir W. Gaskell, J. Pakington, Sir J. Taylor, Col. • • " NOES-73. . . . Adeane, IT. Garnett, W. Ridley, G. AS royd, E. Gilpin, Charles Russell, Lard J. Bathes, Rt. Hon. M. Graham, Sir J. Schneider, H. Bass, ii. Greene, J. SnelleY, Sir J. . Bethell, Sir R. Greer, S. Smith, R. V. . , Blake, J. Gregson, S. Smith, A. Buckley, Gen. Griffith, C. Somerville, Sir W. Butler, C. Hankey, T. Stapleton, J. Calaitt, M. Batchell, J. Sykes, Col. • Campbell, It. Kinnaird, A. Thompson Gen. Clifford, Cs( . Luce, T. Thornely,':T. Cobbett, J. M. Macarthy. A. 'i urner. J. C. Coke, W. , • ' Mangles, R. Vance, J.' Coletutike, Sir T. Melgund, Viscount Verney, Sir H. Collins. I. Mils, Arthur Villiers,C. Coningham, W. • Moffatt, G. Westhead, J. Cowper, W. F. Morris, D. White, J. Cox, William Nisbet, Robert Williams, W. Cranfurd, E. H. j. Norreys, Sir D. Williams, Sir 'W C. os ~ B. O'Brien, P. Wilson, J. Davie, Sir ,11. R. F. Paget, C. Young, A. Dodson, J. Pigott, F. Dunbar,Sir W. Pilkington, J. MUMS. • Eit,,n, Sir A. Palle , C. . Evans, Sir De Lacy Rawlimon, Sir H. Forster, C. Freestun, Col. Rich, tr. Knatchbull-HagesSen SWEARING IN OF THE NEW CITY 'CHAMBERLAIN. -- " Yesterday the Lord Mayor ' presided over a Court Of Aldermen, held at Guildhall, when it was announced to the court, by the proper officers, that the euretite for • the bin 's in the case of the newly elected City Chain' ooriain were found to he good and sufficient, and Mr• Scott was eo •n •after wards introducrd into court sad sworn into office in the usual form. There was no °Ws hm-ive.s ( , f imnortance. 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