The Sun. — London, England, 1858-07-20 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS. --(TBSTIRDAY. ) PUBLIC BUSINESS. The Friendly Societies Act Amendment Bill, the Re formatories (Ireland) Bill, and a number of other bills were-brought in and read a first time. The Earl of DERBY said that, looking at the state , of public business and the great number of bills sent up to be read a first time, he hoped that it would not be • asking too much of their lordships for this week and the next to consent to sit for an hour or so on Weluesdah with the understanding that they were not to take any measure on which there was likely to be any serious dis cussion. If any bill should be brought for ward on Wed nesday on which a discussion arose at any important gigs, such as the second reading, the clear understand ing was that it shou'd only be taken pro forma. Under these cireumstanees he hoped that there would be no ob jection to the course proposed. Earl GRANVILLE had no objection to the arrange ment, upon the understanding mentioned by the noble sr!. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Lancashire and Carlisle Railway Bill was read a second time • and the Newport, Abergavenny, and Hereford Railway Bill, Plymouth Great Western Docks Bill, and the Middlesborough Improvement Bill, were read a third time and passed. • THE STATE SERVICES OF THE CHURCH. The gracious answer of her Majesty to the address of the Rouse of Lords having been read, The Duke of MARLBOROUGH moved that an hum ble address be presented to her Majesty, praying her Majesty, if it should be her pleasure, that the services of the sth November, the 30th January, an d th e 20th M a y, should no longer be annexed to the Book of Common Prayer, in accordance with the address of the House of Lords ; to direct that there be hereafter inserted in the form of prayer and thanksgiving appointed for the 20th - day of Jane, being the day on which her Majesty began her happy reign, such form of thanksgiving as her Ma jeety may see fit, for the great deliverances which by -the mercy of God have been vouchsafed to this nation ; namely, the rescue of the estates of Parliament from the conspiracy of the sth of November, 1605 ; and ,the restorati on o f the church and monarc hy in 1660 ; and tte deliverance from papal subjection and arbitrary power through the landing of King William 111. in 1088: of which several events the nation is still enjoy ing the blessings in the security of her Majesty's throne. The motion, after a short discussion, was negatived. The Police (Scotland) Act Amendment Bill, and the Lunatics (Scotland) Act Amendment Bill were read a second time. SCHOOL TRUSTEES BILL. Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY moved the second reading of this bill. The LORD CHANCELLOR regretted he could not assent to the second reading. The bill was a very un pretending one in appearance, containing only one clause, but involved most important consequences ; and be had hoped the noble lord would have yielded to his suggestion iend not pressed the hill, which could not possibly be discussed as it required at so late a period of the session. He begged to move it be read a second time that day three months. Lord CRANWORTII admitted the bill was not ac curately worded ; but it was a most useful measure, and in committee could easily be altered so as to meet the objections of hie noble and learned friend. By the recent decision the whole law was at sea, and something should be done. The Earl of DERBY was opposed to legislation on the subject at that period of the session. The amendment was agreed to without a division. The bill was therefore lost. UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL. The house went into committee on this bill. On clause 1, The Earl of AIRLIE moved an amendment, the effect of which was to keep the Kicg's and Marischal Colleges in Aberdeen distinct. After a short discussion, the amendment was negative) without a division, and the clause was agreed to. Oa clause 2, The LORD CHANCELLOR proposed an amend ment directing that the Chancellor should be elected by the other members cf the general sound , . The clause as amended was agreed to. Clause 3 was expunged by consent. Clauses 4 to 20 were agreed to, with little discussion. Oa clatiie 21, The LORD CHANCELLOR proposed to insert rds giving compensation to professors and others for the loss of emo'nments. The amendment wr‘s agreed to, as were also the remain ing clauses of the hil►, which passed through committee. THE DURTIAII COUNTY PALATINE JURISDIC- TION BILL. The Commons' amendment to the Lords' amendments Were ain,idered and agreed to. COPYRIGHT OF DESIGNS BILL. The hill passed through committee. NEW GENERAL POST-OFFICE (EDINBURGH) BILL. This bill was rEad a third time and passed. GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL. The house went into committee on this bill. On clause 34, The Earl of ELLEN BOROUGH said he must for a few minutes draw their lordships' attention to this clause. 4, for the first time, introduced competitive examina tion for commissions in the scientific corps of the Indian army. That priccipte was not in the bill cf the late Go vernment, and bad been introduced for the first time now. He had al says thought that the introduction cf competitive cximinations was the most impracticable and dangerous sy4era that had been introduced in mo dern tithes. Its practic :1 effect was to substitute people of an inferior position in the place of those who bad led our army to victory and had well cinduced the affairs of the state, In the case of the scientific corps of the army there was no defect to be removed, the existing system was perfect, and no attempt could be made to alter it without dangers of the gravest character. fie knew nothing, more dangerous tbau to tamper with the scientific corps -Of the army ; for a failure in that arm would affect the euocesaof a siege, or of a battle, and that Might came about ft-Jul the inferior character of the offi cers in command. Such a tannin went to the fate of a campaign or of an empire. This change also was pro posed at the moment of the highest perfection in both. The boldness of the operations of the engineers in front of Delhi—the extra irdinary resources and the audacity that accompanied all their operations at Lncknow, had aotually introduced a new era into the war. These things seemed to er,tablieh for the scientific corps such a claim for consideration as he should have thought the Grvern moot would have listeted to. Their lordships were no doubt aware that at - this moment there was competition at Addiscombe, and it was through that college that the officers for the engineers and artillery were obtained. They were educated under men of the highest ability and character. They we-e impressed with the goeat moral re spiesibility of their duties, and theirs was not an exam!• for which they were crammer',nition on a particular day but their moral ebaracter was ascertained as w,ll as their edocational standing, and the men so selected were such as the coun•ry could entirely rely on. There was no possi•l s lity of introducing into the propcst d cempeti tive Ocarnication a security of that kind. (Rear.) All they could find out was that a gentleman on a certain day attained a certain apparent degree of superiority over another gentleman. There were other advantages in the present system which it gas perfectly impassible to obtain by means of open cornpeti ion. They could have no doubt, from the manner in which these officers from Addiscombe Lad obtained their commissions, that they were gentlemen. He could not speak too strongly of the advantage of having, especially in India, gentlemen, with all that gentlemanlike feeling which prevailed in sncie'y in this country, to take the command of the mi litary, We took nur position in that cs:untry by our mo ral superiority. An EngliAman holding cfficial position there was in a manner a representative of his country, and whatever ho did to impair his own position he ira parred at the sarnelime the position of the government I of this country. At the same time whatever he did dis tinguishing his owse conduct from that of others increased the strength of his government. He remembered a friend of his Laving gone to the late Dake of Wellington on the subject of a court-martial. It was suggested that an [freer who had been dismissed for drunkenness should be restored to the service. He himself told the duke that there were extenuating circumstances, but the duke re plied, "Never forgive drunkenness in an officer ; de pend upon it that the natives are extremely clever in discovering the character of every Englishman a-A there is no offence that is to disgusting in their eyes as drun kenness." It was not that only, it was by our moral spirit that we succeeded in India ; and if that was low ered we should suffer injury. He had always acted on that principle. It was because he was most desirous that we sttrinld have gentlemen of the highest character at the head ef affairs in that country, that we should not have the eldest sons of milliners, grocers, or tailors, riders ref the John Giipin class, in that position that he objected to this' clause. We should have them, whilst the eons of per country gentlemen who could not obtain the rame education, but were infinitely more suited to the position, were excluded. There never was a time when it was more important that the general de meanour. bf officers towards the natives should be that of gentlemen. This alteration was proposed also at a tine W'len none of the apprehensions as to our officers could be entertained which might perhaps have been enter tained formerly. The directors were no longer elected by a constituert body who had claims upon their patronage which mightaa.ve led in former times to the selection of persons not of the most pr , per kind ; and the members of council, by not having - seats in Parliament, wield be saved froth other &aims. -He cool' not but regard this clause as an act of homage to the mob. It was totally uncalled f, r, no one asked for it, no one eipressed the h ge introduced into smallest wish to have this our Indian army, and it wa. g : e p a r t op c o a se n d when ti.at parti cular branch of the perfection was co vered with glory, and when there was every r eason to suppos e that it would ma i nta i n i ts pos i t i on in future. It was an enact ment which wou ld a ff ec t the future e ffi ciency of the artillery and engineers, and it was impossib le that it should not give the gr eatest ' offence to the officers of those corps. The Earl of DERBY said that it was with the greatest possible deference to the opinion of his noble friend, and 1110r8 eepec'ally on the subject on which he spoke with vuob great weight and authority, that he could not CO' i , aide with his argument. Ele thought that some portion of that argument wa4 inconei,tent ',kith the other part o f it. His noble friend said that competition vas for the first time introduced into the scientific corps. The clause, however, did not introduce the principle cf com petition. As the clause stood, it did indeed introduce THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 20, 1858, y g the principle of competition, but l he ha d s b t u a t te t d be t w ha b t rds h: proposed to amend the clause eav "and the candidates who may be fou nd such d f, entitled unds suc h regulations shall be recomm ended . cadet ships according to the order of their proficiency as sh ow n to th e omits ec o n t (l b o r s e e a d w i n o g r d h s e . had announce by such e xam d ina b t i i s on i s n . ' t ' enti O on ci The clause provided that candidates were to be admit ted to the artillery and engineers on examination, under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of State, acting with the advice cf his council. He thought that competition was a mode of appointment which they ought to watch ; but if there was any portion of the ser vice, civil or military, in which competition could be fairly applied, it was the scientific branch of the mili tary service. The Royal Artillery and the Royal Engi neers were subject to the strictest competition and ex amination. There was competition for entering Wool wich, and competition for getting out into the army, and they were still liable to be rejected if their conduct and qualifications were not adequate to the promise they had given. If a person was proved guilty of being un gentlemanly in his habits, dissipated in his conduct, his claim was disallowed, and if there were proper regula tions for the examination, he could not see that any risk was incurred. His noble friend had said that there was strict competition at Addiscombe. He said that we had Isecurity for having gentlemen at Addiscombe. He could not say that he agreed with his noble friend that be cause a person happened to be the son of a grocer, a tailor, or a cheesemonger, provided he had the necessary qualifications, he should not obtain a commission. (Hear, hear.) What a man's origin was was nothing, what was necessary was that he should have proper qualifications, in the way of scientific attainments and moral character ; and if he found a man having those qualifications, he did not care what was his birth, he was entitled to obtain the position. .The cadets at Ad discombe had certainly great advantage in the high cha racter of their professors. He could not understand on what principle his noble friend contended that that which was introduced into every department of the civil service at home and of the royal army, and more rigidly as to the scientific departments of the royal army, ought not to be introduced into the Indian army. If they had laid down a strict rule that the men who succeeded on examination should take priority of all others, it would be subject to many serious objections, but if the clause only provided that there should be examinations for persons entering the scientific corps, there was no such objection. He could not understand on what principle those who ad vocated competition in the civil service,and especially for the scientific branch of the military service, could object to the clause, which would only give security that many of the candidates for this service had a large amount of scientific knowledge necessary to enable them to dis charge the duties. The Duke of SOM EMIT agreed that the Indian ar tillery had been, up to the present time, excellent, and indeed Sir C. Napier had said that it was second to no artillery in the world. This question had been brought before him when he was a member of a commission on the subject, and on that occasion Mr. P. Melville said that Addiscombe was the military college for officers for the scientific corps, and that they admitted double the number of cadets required in order to have fall competi tion. Before admission the candidates passed a prelimi nary examination. This system had been in force many years at Addiscombe. There was there competition no doubt, and the same system was adopted in Franca and Austria. What he feared in the system of the Govern ment was that there was to be competition without any system of military discipline. He thought it was most desirable that young gentlemen in passing through the college should pass through a system cf military disci pline. He thought that Addiscombe, instead of being done away with, ought to be enlarged. Perhaps it was desirable to remove the establishment at Addiscombe to llaileybury, which was a larger building. In his opinion no one should enter the Indian artillery without having previously passed through a military college. Earl GRANVILLE saw no advantage in retaining this clause, if the noble earl (Derby) could not tell them what he intended to do with regard to Addiscombe and the native scientific branches of the army. The Earl of HARDWICKE thought the scientific brandies of the Indian army must be dealt with iu mush the same manner that the scientific branches of the royal army had been. This clause would do more with regard to the former service than had already been done with regard to the latter. 'The Duke of NEWCASTLE agreed with his noble friend near him (the Duke of Somerset) that this clause was useless, and thought its natural tendency wool I be to destroy the college at Addiscombe. They bad already lost one of the London colleges—viz., Haileybury ; and he believed that one of the best things that the uew Se cretary of State for India could do would be to re-estab• lish that college as spe e dily as poss ibl e. It was linpoB- 1 sible, he thought, for any one to have studied the history of India without lrarnicg that a special education was rtquisite both for the military and the civil service. Lord CRANWORTH said it was true the noble earl (D:rby) had, by the amendment which he proposed, re moved the principal objection to the douse, but he had , not told them what was to besubstituted for the omission. The Earl of DERBY remarked that Lis objecti )n to the concluding words of the clause was that they would interfere with the constitutional exercise of the power of the Crown. Hitherto the competitive principle had always been applied under the direct authority of the Crown, and he thought that it ought still to be left where it was. Lord MONTE AGLE expressed hisdecided opposition to any proposal which would endanger the continuance of Addiscombc The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he should like ts see a second military college at Haileybury, and the same competitive examination for the students of the new c 'liege and of Addiscombe. One great advantage of such an arrangement would be that there would vir tually be competition between the professors of the two colleges as well as the students. His noble friend (the Earl of Hardwick() seemed to think it desirable that the system introduced into her Maje , ty's army should be in trodccad into the army of India. He would caution their lerdsbips against adopting the price pie of assimilation, against attempting to assimilate the Indian to the Eng lish army. They all knew what great advantages were derived last year from the differences between the Ben gal, the Bombay, and the Madras armies. Those differ ences Ind prevented the spreading of the mutiny, and saved our Indian empire, and they might depend upon it their security there rested upon differences, and not upon assimilation. Lord BROUGHTON considered it very undesirable that Addiscombe should be dune away with. The Earl of DERBY said the clause did not hint at Addiscerebe. Lord BROUGHTON—No ; but it gives the govern ment power with respect to Addiscombe. The Earl of DERBY—It gives the Government no power with regard to Addiscseabe which it has not pos sessed already. It does not interfere with Addiscombe. Lord BROGUEITON--But it gives the Government power to substiqite another education for that of Addis combe. The Earl of DERBY—It does not give any power, and it does net take away the power which the Govern meat posz.:esses at this moment. Lord BROUGHTON—But under this clause the Government had an additional power, and a sort of re commendation to apply it. He hoped the noble earl would consider this a-mon , the other infirmities of the bill. (Laughter.) There Cal hardly been a considerable man of late years in India who did not owe his educa tion to Addiscombe, and the most eminent residents had come from that establishment. After a few words from the Earl of -... -P LLENBOROLIGH, Their lordships then divided on the question that the clause, as amended, stand part of the bill— Contents .... ... 4l No'. contents Majority —7 The clause was therefore agreed to. .. _ Oa clause 33, regulating the appointment to cadasbiP s The Earl of ALBEMARLE o bj ecte d to the clause.' As it stood it gave all the patronage to the new Cour, 1 a il, and showed the influence exerciecd on the Govern ment by the Court cf Direesors. lie believed the publ.o would not consent to give the patronage to the Govern ment, and therefore the only remedy wao an amendment such as he Lad given notice of. He believed all the evils of the administration could be traced to the ays• tem of patronage. The appointments to the cavalry, instead of being given at Addiscombe, wi.re re served for the ariatocracy of Leadenhall street, and to increase their patronage. The regular cavalry w,re preferred to the irregular, which was more serviceable and more economical. -Re thought the clause ought to be struck out, and that which he proposed or some othtr be subeti tut. d. • .. between TheE a tt l e o u f obe e DERBY atr, couldspeee speech not n d t o t i tn f which he k at i g i ven notice. His proposal was to give a! the patro nage to three members of the „ C ounc il t o l chosen by the Secretory of State; as the bill stood the secretary would h ave two nominations; out of 17. The noble earl thought that too much, and therefore pro posed to give cne-eigth directly, and 'the other seven eighths indirectly, though the three members to be named by him, who were to receive their full salaries of 1,200/., although remaining members of the Council, were not to take any part in the government of India. Earl GRANVILLE did not think it advisable thus to stereotype the mode of nomination, it would be making it a sort of property of the Council. He thought the subji:ct shoull be left to future regulation. The clause was then agreed to. On clause 41, The Duke of SOMERSET objected that under this clause neither the Governor-General nor the Secretary of State would have any power to expend any money, The Earl of DERBY said th 3 clause did not at all in terfere with the powers now vested in the Governor. General, it only subjected the expenditure to the revi sion of the council. The Earl of ELLENBOROUG a remarked that the clause did not at all a'ter the position of the Guvercor- General—the c uncil was substittred for the Court of D rectors, who now revised all the expenditure. The clause was then agreed to. On clause 52, relating to the audit of accounts, The Eatl of ELLEN BOROUGH said he ha] an amendment to propose in the chuse. Hs considered it only jest to protect the revenues of India from being charged with any expendittire to which they were not properly applicable, and he leered the council would not be as careful as the Ccurtsof Directors were. He pro pseud to extend the powers the auditors, and with that 'view to add the words, " Especially noting any pa 3 .- monk if such there be, in which it shall appear to bins any money coming out of the revenues of India has been arm;ied to other purposes than those cf the government of India." The Earl of DERBY believed the clause as it stood afforded sufficient protection, but he would consider the amendment. The !he next Wage of the bill. N be T f E or A e p present syst, m ofublic audit in this country was not G LE supported the I;a Lor d d in kl en O t satisfactory, and the last repo rt had recommended are. turn to the old system of the auditor reporting direct to Parliament. He would recommend the same system with regard to Indie. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH did not think it pos. , sible to improve the present system of accounts at Lead enhall-street. The clause was then agreed to. Oa clause 53, accounts to be laid annually before Par liament, The Earl of SHAFTESBURY moved to add a pro viso that the accounts be accompanied by a statement giv ing an abstract of what had been done during the year to improve railwaye, roads, and canals, the number of Euro pean settlers andsoldiers in each presidency, the mortality, the number of schools and colleges, members attending, books used, ire the statement being prepared in such a manner as to exhibit the moral and material progress of each presidency. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH should not object if he thought the preparation of the statement would not cost too much, or would be read by anybody except the noble earl and one or two others. After some conversation the clause was agreed to. On clause 54, which requires that the order for the commencement of hostilities be communicated to Parlia ment one month after their actual commencement, The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH objected to the clause as it stood. Five weeks must elapse before the order for the commencement of actual war arrived in India, and five weeks more must elapse before it was known that the Governor-General had declared war. He did not believe that any man in his senses would give an order for the commencement of actual hostilities under such circumstances. Practically it would be a notifica tion to the state against which proceedings were to be taken. If this had been the law before the late Persian war he did not believe that either Busbire or Moham merah would have bean taken. The Earl of DERBY said he was at a loss to under stand the objection of his noble friend. If an order was sent out directicg the commencement of actual hostilities he thought it was not unreasonable that Parliament, if then sitting, should be informed of the fact that such an order had been sent out within one month after. How that could be a notice to the enemy be could not under stand. Ha did not think the instance selected by his noble friend was a happy one, because if ever there was an unconstitutional proceeding it was that Persian war, which was commenced, carried on, and ended without Parliament having the slightest knowledge that they were going to war, what the grounds of the quarrel were, or what they were fighting about. (Hear.) The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH. said be was not going to defend what had been done by the late Government, but whether right or wrong in their policy, the war had been successful. He believed that the clause would never be acted upoe. Suppose, for instance, when the order to commence the Persian war had been sent out, the Indian mutiny had broken forth, and that the Gover nor-General did not act upon the order under the circum stances, would not the communication to Parliament one month after the order had been sent out be a notification to Persia of their intention I Lord WODEHOUSE suggested two months instead of one. The Duke of CAMBRIDGE thought the object of the clause was a vary desirable one, but care should bo taken that the interests of the country did nct suffer. For that reason he thought it desirable that the time should be extended. Lord CRANWORTH said that the late Government, after mature deliberation, agreed to the clause, but the noble earl (Ellenborough) pointed out such difficulties arising from the distance of India from this country as might make it positively mischievous to act upon the clause. The. Earl of DERBY said that if this clause, which was verbatim the same as when it was aereed to by the members of the late Government, had been so maturely considered by the late Cabinet, he was at a loss to know why they charged their opinion. Was it that they sat on the other side of the heuee ? He would not object to the two months. Earl GRANVILLE thought the charge of change of opinion was an extraordinary 0. - :e to come from the no ;le, earl whose government changed their opinion not only with re;eird to the subject of India, but with regard to almost every other suhjsct. (hear.) It was very possible for men to come honestly an l conscientiously to an opini n, and on further argument to change that el)trion. (Hear.) He did not think the argument of the noble earl (E 13r:borough) had been answered, and he could not help thinking it would be better to insert three months instead of one or two. By the end of the month they would be sure of having received the answer of the Governor-General. The clause was then egreed to, two months being sub stituted instead of oue as in the clause (as was understood). On clause 55, which refers to the employment of the Indian army beyond the frontiers of India, The Earl of DERBY proposed a new clause instead, for the purpose of getting rid of the constitutional ob jection which had been urged to the old clause. Bail GRANVILLE said that the object of the clause was a good one. Mr. F, x suggested something of the kind forairily, and so did Mr. Pitt, but they failed, and was there the slightest chance, if the clause biome law, of its Ming more successful ? Tne Indian army was not to be employed outside the Indian frontiers except to repel an invasion or on some urgent and sudden neces sity without the consent of Parliament. As he said be f,3re, no war was justifiable except the case was urgent, and some suddenness was always connected with a mili tary operation. What was the meaning of the consent of Parliament 1 Waq an act of Parliament to be got Was there any other mode of expressin4 its consent ? If so, it ought to be embodied in the clause. By this clause the Governor-General might be deterred from doing things which it would ba his duty to do. The Earl of DERBY said it had been supposed that the object of the clause was to impose a restriction cn the prerogative of the Crean with respect to the Indian army on brLign expeditions. [he clause had no such obkct, and it would have no such effect. After this clause pages I the Crown would hts at liberty to employ in any quarter of the world every eiagle man engaged in the Indian service during the period of his service. It being the undoubted prerogative of the Crown to make war and peace, the only constitutional check upon that prerogative was the sanction cf Parliament to the pecu niary arrangement., without whierla no tr ops could be removed. This cause was introduced for the protection of the Indian revenue, and it provided that Indian troops should not quit their own territory except for the pm pose of preventing actual invasion ; or if they did, that the expenses should be defrayed cut of the revenues of this country; and not out of the revenues of India. It did not prevent the employment cf Indian troops by the Queen, but it. is said that if the Queen employed these troops in other than wars within the territories of India, it should be for ThllliatneLt to decide whether these were Indian or imperial objects. If this clause Wa► not agreed to, it would be cimpetent for an unconstitutional sove reign to employ the whole of the revenue and troops of In dia in carrying on a war for any purpose which the Crown might direct, without being obliged to came to Parlia meet f:r a single shilling. (Hear.) The Earl of ELLENIFOROUGH thought the bill bad taken the best securi y against that, LT it gave the Council a power of vetoing any measure of that kind. The directors refused to pay for the China expadiiion ; and if they had not agreed to pay half the expenses of the Persian s xeedition, they could net be called upon for one abiflug towards the expenses cf that win It was for that reason he cantidered the clause wool I be in operative. Ho helievcd. the only effect of the ;lame would be to tie up the sword of the Governor-General, to paralyse his diplomacy, and to lead to the very wars which it was intended to prevent. The committee then divided— Per the new clauee, Against it The clause was then agreed to. Clauses down to 70 were agreed to without discussion. On Clan 71, V• I Let clause The Earl of DERBY stated, in answer to a question from Earl Granville, that on the bill coming into ope• ration iu India a proclamation would be issued by the Crown,:'; atieg the principles on which the government of the country would be carried on. (Hear.) The house then resumed, and the report was ordered to be received this day. The Navigation Advances ([reload) Bill was read a third time and passed. The Prescriptions (Ireland) Bill was read a third time and passed. The Local Government Bill was read a second time. The Mi:itia Ballots Suspension Bill passed through committee. The house adjourned at 12 o'clock. 52 16 - HOUSE OF COMIONS—(YrsTERDAt.) METROPOLITANILOCAL MANAGE UENT ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Inn' J. MANNERS said that he had often heard that that house Ras subject to hot and cold fits, but he had never seen that assertion more fully proved than by the debates which had taken place on this question within the last three weeks. Her Majesty's Govevement was threatened with nothing less than impeachment unto within 24 hours they settled this question, and at that time be (Lord J. Manners) put in a dilatory plea, stating that the Government had the matter under considera tion,and begged that the house would not in its excite rnent press at once for an authoritative decb-ion. But the Government having had time for consideration, and having formed a scheme w hich the y recommended the h •tve to adopt, it was met by the hon. members for Huddersfield, for Buteshire, and Nee castle-upon-Tyne, with a serious opposition, and the Government were told that they were rushing to a conclusion on a question which might very well wait till next year, as his right hon. Wend (Mr. Wortley) said, he believed, until the coal duties expire in 1862. (No, from Mr. Wortley.) Why were thf y to wait another year? Some gentlemen seemed to thine: that this was a new question on which soientifie men had not made up their minds, but having had to look into the subject, he (Lord J. Manner-) knew that no subj ct had been more x‘mined into and c tiered, and in fact so thoroughly thrashed out as that of the main drainage of the metropolis. If hon. gentlemen would rrflcct en the number of schemes which had been proposed, and the quantity of evidence •shich had been brought for ward, trey could not say that the Government were aboot to settle the question in haste. He could only say that if the hou-e was deliberately of opinion thit no eeoi,ion should be come to on the question this y:ar, 0-1 the House of Commons would rest the re , ponstoility f losing, perhaps, the only opportunity of dealing with tie subject. On the part of the Government he de clared that they had been prepared to take the respon- T w' h a sechfefT. responsibilitymi i oetnnobt of s.b 1 ty of acti on , an d t h en on the howls meat rest the i t n f t a ohr c et Newcastlei only n. mode(H ee ( Hear .) a.o)ifd dealingtTh h a e t t Gb this v wq e iurtneh question ti e oh n ne t ehon o l n d ly be th d e ea d lt ra w in it a h g question was to be L un d in the f ,nr corners of this bill. eaasnda pwuhroilfiecaLtyriont,hbeuGtotvheernelmnbeannt— not k. merit of the Thames ; but the hon. gentleman did not in the course of his long and able B ^ pee.h • give an inkling as to how the Government was to pay for all this. Would the hon. gentleman "give the Government the ways and means? Out of what fends did the hon. gentleman propose that the Government should do all this? Were they as a pure and naked despotism to take out of the pockets of the ratepayers the money required for such works, or were they to be considered as national ex penses, and to be borne out of the consolidated fund. (Hear.) If so he (Lord J. Manners) should decline to be the person to make such a proposition to P ar li amen t. Then what was L ft but to invest a great municipality, which, if anything did, represented the ratepayers with powers necessary to effect the required object. He had heard with surprise the comments which had been made on the Metropolitan Board of Works. That body had originated with a liberal Government, of which the light honourable gentleman the member for Kidderminster was a member, who had spoken eo strongly of what be called a quasi representative body. He (Lord John Manners) supposed that the intention of the legislature was to be found in the pream ble of the act, which declared that "it was expedient for the better local government of the metropolis in regard to the sewerage, lighting, and cleansing thereof." The act compelled the 'Metropolitan Board of Works to take up the very question of the main drainage and purifica tion of the Thames. Let him ask whether the Govern ment under whose auspices that act was passed believed that they were setting up a sham and a pretenc e , or a municipality, or did they believe that they were creating an effective municipality for the government of this vast n e'ropolia ? He was bound to come to the latter con clusion, and therefore he had listened with surprise to the denunciations which had been delivered against that body. His right hon. friend (Mr. Wortley) said that it was impossible to entrust such powers as were proposed by the bi 1 to the Board of Works, and he said that he did not know the names of its members. It was possible that he did not know their names, but were all corpora tions worthless unless his right hon. friend knew the birth and parentage of all their members I He (Lord J. Manner ) protested against this mode of dealing with the subject. They found in existence a great muni cipality which three years ago was created for metro politan purposes, and every impartial man would admit that if the Metropolitan Board had not carried out a plan for the drainage of London, the blame did not lie at their door exclusively. (Hear, bear.) Tee Government had found that the powers of the Metro politan Board of Works were not sufficient to enable them to perform their functions ; and they came to Par liament and asked Parliament to give them the neces sary powers. Ho had abstained on this occasion from showedth t he q utehae te i n n t n e : ring a d o w on b t a h t e b s a c d i e n o t c i fi c c u r a r n e d d c t h b e a m t ice evening l e n p i a n r g t nobleadvantage of dbanv having g entering urge on h d tb, t t honest atai s e ls things estheme. had beenTh said on both sides with referenco to the plan of the Metropolitan Board of Works, and that of the referees of Sir B. Hall, proceeded to entreat the house not to be led into a discussion on engineering questions, for if they did they must constitute themselves a perpetual select committee on the subj€cfe If they agreed with him so far, he would ask, if it was shown that the powers of the Metropolitan Board of Works were not sufficient for that purpose, if the house was determined that the national resources should not be called on to pay the expenses of such a work, and if they thought that the local inhabitants, who woull have to pay, should have a voice in the matter, which he for one would earnestly insist on, what better plan could be adopted than that proposed by the bill 1 And until some other plan, which held out greater certainty and a better hops that the great work which they desired should be accom plished, he entreated the house not to lose perhaps the last slop ertunity of giving that board sufficient powers which three years ago was created as an efficient and , popular representative of the great metropolis. He could not sit down without answering a question put earlier in the evening by the hon. member for Eiesharn, who asked what was the nature of the rating powers of the beard. The, power wan that of sewer-rating, which existed before. There bad been no alteration of the nature of the rating by the bill. It was called a land lord's rate, ared unless in leases there were specific powers to the contrary, it was payable by the landlords. The noble lord concluded by earnestly urging on the house to read the hill a seem time. Mr. GLAD: IONE said the framework of the hill presented great d He wished to know who would be u:tiwately responsible for the payment of the money. ((Tear, hear.) It was intended that the charge should be borne by the metropolis, but the public often became involved unaware in pecuniary responsi• bilitiee, and he should like to know how the bill pro vided for the responsibility in this respect. (Elear ) in many cases the House of Commons had as , ented tv proeonitions, and then, after I-et:Wises the plies in the preamble f a LP, had given its legisletive sanction. lie did not obj ct to the application of the principle of a public guarantee in a metter so important as the pre sent ; tut the application ought to bo wa'ched and scru tinised with severe jealousy. He wished to a=certain the rtspansibility of the body to whom the guarantee was to be given, and to avoid stepping into a position in which it might be said the whole affair was done by the authority of Parliament, and Parliament ought to pay for it. He did not find from the bill that this was a popular responsible body requiring aid in the shape of a grant. 0., the contrary, Parliament seemed to be made the absolute authors and projectors of the scheme. (Rear, hear.) It was no doubt advisable to avoid dis cussing engineering and other details of a similar na ture. He agreed with the noble lord that it was im possible to arrive at a satilactory conclusion on these matters. But then the house: ought to have the best possible assurance that these matters had been ade quately and competently decided by those with whom they were c'ealieg. (Hear, hear.) From the discus , sions which had taken place, and the pamphlets which bad been published, it appeared to him that the ques tion had not yet arrived at that maturity which would enable the house to deal with it in a satisfactory manner. At prese nt hon. members were not able to stand on their Own conli Atone or on the competencyof those with whom they were dealing ; and they tsujet to deal with some body which was competent to arrive at a correct con clusion. (Hear, hear.) The bill did not even say that the Board of Works had approved of any scheme. It contained in a few clause; the recognition and sanction of a plan which was understood to be the plan of the Board of Wank?. Buttbat plan waste be promulgated on the authority of Parliament ; and then would come the question of the ultimate liability. (Hear.) Suppose the plan should fail, or that the 3 ,000,0001. shoul I bo found to be insufficient for its execution. One cr both of these events might happen. (Hear.) And what, then, would be the case of the inhabitants of th e metropolis ? Would they not b able to point to the bill and say, "Ts was not with our will that this wa s d one , and it was not done on the petition of those whom we appoint al—it was n , t undertaken at the time we chose; but it was the ir,flu• once of the disagrer able odour of the Thames that brought the matter to maturity. The provisions of the bill r the but o from a not dictated by a regard to popular principle, conviction that you understood the qu est i reckless haete to escape personal and bodily annoyance." (Hear.) If the Haile lord fully understood the question, and lilt the ground secure under hie feet, he congratu lated Lin on his happy condition. But, along with mary others, he frankly owned that he should feel great com fort and satisfaction if further time were afforded for consideration behite Ow house gave its sanction to any plan. (Clear ) MV. Alderman CUBITT felt confident that if the Metropolit n Beard of Works was invest e d w i t h entire power to devi.se a scheme, taking in cha rge a l so t h e pub lic and moral respon,ibility,they, would di sc h arge t h e i r duty in such a way as to satisfy all the requi remen t s o f public opinion. , There was a defect in the second clause which he booed to sae remedied in committee. Mr. CONINGfIA.NI believed the proposed scheme would prove to be a colossal failure, and he would warn the inhabitants of the metropolis that this was a direct attempt upon their pockets ; and the house would find, having forced the metropolis into this vast expenditure, that they would eventually have to aid the drainage of the metropolis out cf the national exchequer. (Hear.) S:r B. LIALL intended to support the second reading of the bill, but wished to state one particular reason which induced him to take that course. It ,vas essentially necessary, in taking seeps for the purification of the Thames, that the provisions which he inserted in his bill should be enacttd in the present, and that the Metropo litan Bard should have those powers of raising money which were proposed in 1855. There were some clauses in the present bill which required great consideration, and to which considerable opposition would be given. The right bon. gentkenesu the =member for Bute had re (erred to the rep rt of the commissioners appointed in 1853. and he could assure the right hon. gentleman that the bill f. r the 1 , cal management of the metropolis was framed as nearly as possible in accordance with the re con-emendations of the commissioner?. It might be con venient flr him to state the intentions of the Govern ment with regard to the constitution of that board. I . n introducing th e bill h e said---" With regard to the chair . man, he propwei that the Metropolitan Board of Works should select three names, not necessarily from their own body, or from any district board, but that they should have power to select from the whole length and breadth of the kingdom three persons, any one of weom would be fit and proper to occupy the high office he wouldonld be called upo n t o fill, and thoroughly coalified to discharge i the important functions attendant upon it. These names should be sent to the Secretary a State, and the latter should erase two, the remaining one to be tbo presidentof the Metropol i t an B oard. He proposed that the chairman should be paid a salary of not less than 1,5001., and not more than 2,0001. a-year, and that he should hold office during good bet aviour. This body would have power t o le v y rates for improvements, re a d a l so , when necessary, to take land out o f t h e i r d istrict for the purpose of outfall works, as at p resen t i t was not possible to carry out the drainage e f the metropolis, because there was no power to make the ar t er i a l drains be.) and a certain limit. This board would have power to make intercepting sewers for the purification of t'e Tbame7 and would ho empowered to borrow m oney f rom the Treasury, to be paid within 50 yews. Teat was the tame proposed by the Go vernment, but the house thought proper to alter it, and determined that the chairman should be elected by the hoard, who, of course, selected one of their own body. An 4 with regard to the power of borrowing money from the Treasury, that provision war also struck out. He wished now to-call the attention of the noble lord to the second clause of the bill. By the first clause the Metro pulitan Bard were directed to commence their work within a reaFonablo period. In the second clause the p int'r of on fall were defined. They were to be higher than the west bank cf B 'eking Creek on the one side, and not higher than Croesnes Point in Briar Marshes on the other side. He thought that point much too near London; but that was a matter for consideration in committee. He objected strongly to the proviso which enabled the Metropolitan Board to discharge the -43 sage, if they should think in any part of the me ropclie. It wool lbe extremely difficult, if not impos sible, to Establish deodorising works within the metro politan area at the outfalls of the sewers, and he trusted the noble lord would reconsider that point before giving power to the board to erect deodorising works in the midst of densely-populated districts. (Hear, hear.) Reference had been made to the case of Leicester ; but the evidence iv, that case showed that the deodorising works were in the open fields. Now in London they could not be in the open field.';. For the reasons which he had stated, he trusted the proviso would be struck out. Mr. KENDALL said it was most desirable the house should know the position in which it stood. It was asked to give a guarantee to the extent of 3,000,0001. But would that sum be sufficient I The referees stated that instead of 3,000,0001. not less than 6,000,0001. would be required, and in his opinion it was not un likely that the sum required might amount to 9,000,0001. or to 12,000,000/. Then with respect to the question of deodorisation, Mr. Cook had stated, with respect to Leicester, that he could completely deodorise the sewage of 100,000 persons for 6,0001, and maintain the works for 1,2001. annually. For the sum of 180,0001. he could deodorise every portion of the metropolitan sewage; and carry on the works for 38,0001. a year. Perhaps the amount might not be exactly correct ; but the opinion of Mr. Cook was backed by that of other gentlemen who understood the subject. His opinion was that the subject was not quarter investigated ; but he believed the bill would pa-s, as it appeared to be acceptable to the house. Mr. LOCKE (Honiton) thought that a bill much more simple in its details than the one before the house would have answered the purpose. There were many persons who thought that the interception system was not the best system that could be adopted, and he might observe also, in reference to the expenditure, that some of the engineers and some of the parties examined before the committee, had coupled with the expenditure works of which the - house had at present no knowledge. Those other works, he believed, would be attended with consi derable expense, and it was to that he would direct at tention. Tne right hon. gentleman the member for Mary lebone had told them that this system of deodorisation was one which was not likely to be effective, and he cited the evidence of a gentleman on that subject. Now, although she evidence was to a certain extent true, yet they had other most important evidence that a plan of deodorisation might be carried out on the banks of the Thames without the slightest inconvenience to the inha bitants. Not only Mr. Cook, but Mr. Hawkesley, had stated their decided opinion that a system of deodorisa tion might be carried on anywhere on the banks of the Thames. He begged the house to understand that he was giving as much his own opinion as the opinions of other persons who hal been examined before the committee. He thought if they were to deodorise the sewage, it would be much better that they should deodo rise it before it reached the Thames than after. And he thought it would be much better if the bill simply gua ranteed the repayment of the money to be advanced without Parliament involving itself in any scheme what ever. If it were absolutely necessary that some scheme should be propounded, he was bound to say that he agreed with the chairman of the committee that they had not had sufficient evidence of what, under all the circumstances, was the best system to adopt, Mr. HENLEY said the hon. member who had just sat down said the bill should confine itself simply to find ing the money. That was exactly what the bill did. The Metropolitan Board of Works was left to adopt such plans as they saw fit, without any indication in the bill as to what the plan was to be. The right hon. baronet opposite had expressed a strong opinion that deodorisa tion ought not to take place in crowded localities. He entirely agreed with him, but he thought it would be absolutely impossible under this bill for that to be done, because, although it was true that it gave leave to die. charge the sewage in certain places, and that it must first be deodorised, yet another clause said that no nuisance should be created anywhere. The course of this discus sion showed how wise it was to say nothing about a plan in the bill, for no two members had agreed on any plan. Tree simple question seemed to be this : some three years ago Parliament decided to entrust to a local body the power of doing this particular thing. Per some rea- , son or other, but mainly, he supposed, owing to two causes, nothing had been done. Various plans had been before the public, and the noble lord raid that all the plans of thelast three years had been pretty well thrashed out. But no two members agreed upon anything. Were they then to go on till they could agreed upon some plan? If they did, nothing would ever be done at all The two reasons which had prevented anything being done had been these—one was, that the board had not the means of rasing the money, and the other was, that the Go vernment having a veto upon them, of course the right hon. gentleman who had to exercise that veto could not exercise upon his own authority, and he got compe tent men to give him their opinion, and having corn potent men on his right hand and on his 1 ft, they gave competent reasons one against another, and nothing was done. In the meantime the river became fouler and fouler, and some fine morning it might create a pesti lence. If the board acted upon any one of the schemes, something would be done towards abating the nuisance, hut if they waited till they could agree upon a scheme, they might wait till doomsday. The question had been raised by the right hon. member for tee University of Oxford whether the landlords should pay ? Now sewers rates were not unknown, and in all cases they fell on the landlords where the landlords had not protected thernselvee. A good deal of objection had been made as to the mode in which the Metropolitan Board of Works was elected, but he had nat heard any metropolitan member say that the board did not fairly represent the . metropolis. He thought the case was a simple one. If . Porliarnent thought the country ought to pay for it then the Government ought to carry out the work. If, on the other band, the metropolis ought to pay for it, he thought it but fair that those a ho paid for it should have the carrying out cf the work. They had had some expe rience of this matter. Government having a veto had brought things to a dead lock, and with regard to the drainage of other great towns, he did not think that the interfercuce of a government department had been at tended with happy results. He repeated that any of the schemes would go far to prevent, if it did not altogether prevent, the nuisance, and he believed that if this bi'l passed, it would eet a body to work that would do some thing. Mr. R. STEPHENSON said eight years ago he be came a member of the Metropolitan Commission of Sewers, and he then had to commence the study of the drainage of the metropolis. lie was a:sociated with some very able men, and although his views had undergone some modification since that time, essentially they had remained precisely the same. He w a called on at that tines to investigate 160 different plans that were sent in by a number of competitors in compliance with an adver tisement of a previous commission. He believed that every possible variety of scheme affecting the drain ' age of the metropolis was broached. He spent much time in investigating the whole of them, and he came to the conclusion that nothing would eff:ctually answer the purpose but the intercepting system. Tee right hon. gentleman the member for Kidderminster had objected to this system an not being adaptel for the increase of the population of London to three millions and it-halr. Now a more inappropriate remark could net by ar.y poso . l . ty have been made. The intercepting system divided London as it now stood into a series of z mes. Each intercepting sewer, therefore, dealt with the z ,no immediately above it. Any increase of London, there fore, would only rsen ire the construe ion of a new inter cepting sewer f an additional z , ne without at all affecting that which had been already done towards the drainage of the metropolis. Indeed the chief recom mendation to him of the intercepting system wan that it was ca p a bl e of expansion without involving any inter ference with the existing drainage. Well, after plans hall been drawn with great core they were foewarded to Government, and then ho found that the bands of the corn mission were ti,d, and as the censtruc'don of the minor sewers in London was a matter that could bo carried en with ordinary euperintendenco, the corn rei-eion resigned. A new commission was then appointed comprising many eminent men in his profession. They investigated the wh. le question and came to the same conclusion that he had done without having any com munication with him whatever, which he thought vvas'a strong argument in favour of the intercepting system. What was the reeult ? That commission also found that Government refused to entertain any application for mone y, and the noble lord tic member for Tiverton see' to them a dictatorial letter requiring them to carry out the plan f a person who was in hie confidence. That immediately led to the resignation of the commission, as they could not ident fy themselvi s with such a scheme. An objection had been made to the Metropolitan Board of Works, but he could not understand why. The board was in possession of all the necessary information, and there was no (ethic body that was. If Parliament a pointed another body, that body wool I have to collecpt and arrange ali that was colleeted and arranged by the Board of Works already. There might ba some little amendment effected in these plans, but he agreed with the right hon. member for Oxfordshir e that they had seldom seen much good arise from the interference of Government in these matters. He trusted that the house would come to a decision iu favour of this bill, unless they intended to leave the matter where i: wee. But he should strongly ad v i se t h e G overnment to insist upon the intercepting system being carried out. Mr. LOWE explained that what he said was that the plan of the board woe confess e dly li m i ted to a population of two millions and a half. Sir J. SUELLEY could confirm all that the lion, member for Whitby had said with r. gard to the labour which be had bestowed on this subject. lie quite agreed with him that th e intercepting system the moat likely to be eff ec ti ve, an d that it would be w w a ell to begin with an intercepting sewer of a high level to prevent the storm waters inundating the lower districts. With re gard to deodorisation, La did not deny that Mr. Cook had given dietetic-, evidenca but they roust rem ember that Mr. Cock was th e chairman f the compa n y whose objet as to sell the deedori , ed se sage at Leicester,and that they h a d not succeeded in effecting any sales. Toe bill provid e d th at if the outfall we re a t Woolwich, deoderi-atien should be carries] on half the year ; but if within the ruet ropo li tin area, it should be carried on the whole year. He thouglit the inhabitauts of Woolwich might reasonably repiire- the same provision wide re gar] to their district at was applied to the metropolis. Sir G. C. LE WIS said it appeared to him there was an iiicsneirdency in the principle on which the bill was tended and the announcement just made by the Pre sident of the Board of Trade. Toe right hon. goetleman . said it was quit e open to the Board of Works to a d opt any plan which they might think fit, and that Govern ment was not responsible f an particular plan. Mr. HENLEY o ! ;sFrved t; at y %%hat he s Wee, that it was quite open to the board to carry out any plan. Sir G. C. LEWIS said at a 1 events he understood that the Government had expressed no opinion in favour of any one plan, and that it was quite open to the board to adopt any plan they might think fit. If that were so, why was the house called upon to guarantee the precise sum of three millions ? Either the to aril bad fixed upon some plan, and the Government with the knowledge of that plan, had fixed upon snree millions, whi they said was sufficient, or if the board had really not fixed upon a plan,.it was clear they had no security that three mil- lions was sufficient, and that they might not be called upon hereafter for two or three millions more. That was the only difficulty he had in assenting to the second reading of this bill. Mr. J. LOCKE regarded this subject as one of great importance to the ratepayers of the metropolis. (Hear.) The Government said they had no plan, but they never theless introduced a bill which to his mind seemed to indicate a plan, inasmuch as it named the points where the outlets of the sewage ,were to be fixed. But with regard to the means of transit of the sewage from the metropolis to those points, the Government said they were prepared to leave that entirely to the Metropolitan Board of Works. Now, with regard to the deodorisa tion of the sewage, there were different opinions. They had, for instance, the hon. member for Honiton (br. J. Locke), whose opinion was in favour of the deodorising system ; while, on the other band, they had the opinion of the hon. member for Whitby (Mr. Stephenion), indi cating that he was an enemy to the deodorising system. Mr. STEPHENSON explained that ho was not an enemy to deodorising, under certain circumstances ; but there were certain districts of Lendon the sewage of which could not be conveniently deodorised. Mr. LOCKE—The hon, member was an advocate of what he called dividing the metropolis into " zeroes," and thus his system might be described as "the sonar system"—(laughter) —but while he won'd deodorise some zones, his plan would not deodorise other zones of the metropolis. It would be his (Mr. Locke's) duty, inasmuch as they were proceeding in the dark, not to move that the bill be read a second time that day three months, but that it be allowed to go into committee, wherein the house would have an opportunity of im proving it. Lord EBRINGTON said he was by no means san guine of the success of the plan of which the bill was in favour ; and in his opinion Government would be held responsible for that plan, let them think or say what they might to the contrary. Mr. CLAY said it appeared to him that the bill of her Majesty's Ministers now before the house, in nominating the Metropolitan Board of Works to carry out the work, had made the beet silection. The house bad created them with certain powers, but restricted them in money, and should the work not be carried out, his belief was that it would be because the thing could not possibly be done. The experiment, however, was worth making, and in his opinion the Metropolitan Board of Works was the best body to make it. Mr. PULLEN agreed in the opinion expressed by some hon. members, that the Metropolitan B eard of Works were decidedly the best that could ba appointed to carry the provisions of the bill out. There were two plans before the country—one, the plan cf the Metropo litan Board of Works, and the other that of the referees. By the former the sum proposed to carry out the work was only leooo,ooo/., while that of the referees would, according to their own acknowledgment and estimate, amount to 6,000.0001. Looking, then, at the two esti mates, he was certainly iu favour of the plan proposed by the Board of Works. Lord PALMERSTON hoped the house would agree to the second reading of the bill. (Hear.) And moreover, because if the bill were rejected, the house would have to postpone the power of dealing with the nuisance, and getting rid, if possible, of its foul effects. (dean) It was au evil of great magnituels. He spoke not merely of the existing evil, which arose from the pestilential exhala tions from the Thames ; for, although that in itself was a great mil, yet, in proportion as the population of the metropolis increased, and in proportion as the sewage flowing into the Thames increased, in that pro portion was the Thames becoming the great sewer of the metropolis ; and, like the great sewer, it would stink, and, like a stinking sewer, it would become a great evil. (Hear) Some men who went pleasuring down the river to Greenwich said the r wives became sick from the stink of the Thames, and were unable to eat their dinner ; but he hoped that loss of appetite was a mief *rtune that would not befall her M js-ty's Government on Siturday next, when they would sit down to enjoy the Ministerial White Bait Dinner at Greenwich. (Laughter.) It had been said that there was no great amount of disease at preSent in the metropolis, and, fortunately, there was no epidemic in London ; but, if the metropolis was wife.- tunately acted with cholera at the time the stink emanated from the Thames, he believed that the stench would have aggravated in the most intense degree any disaster of that kind. The ill effects of the bad 6rainage was felt in other places betides the banks of the Thames. This was especially the case in the neighbourhood of Hackney.brook, as he had the means of knowing when tie was in the Home-office, and listened to the recital of the sufferings and annoyances arising from the stenches and over flo vvings of the sewage. There was, too, a large population living in the south, in one part of which there was no drainage, and no outfa 1 except at low water, and &ter a great fall of rain the cellars became inundated, and there was an amount of misery which no gentleman could have a notion of. Treat required drainage by a great out fall, by a tunnel to be ca rr i e d to a lower part of the Thames. It must net be imagined that theta was any remedy for those evils except by intercepting sewers in tunnels which would carry the drainage from the metropolis to a lower level. He thought that Bark ing Creek and the opposite points were too near, and it would be found in practice that money laid out in carrying tunnels to these was, in a certain degree, thrown away. The Metropolitan Board would have to come to Parliament and confess that the plan was defective, and call upon Parliament to assist them with further money. He agreed to carrying cue tha work to the further point. Therefore, he thoneht it very unfortunate that Government should persist in limiting the point for the outfall of the tunnels at a point so near as Barking Creek and the opposite side. Tnere was another point not entering into the arrange,• meet of the bill, but to which he hoped the attention of the Metropolitan Board of Works would be successfully directed—the possib lily of converting to agricultural purposes as manure that vast amount of :natter dis c! argod into the Thames. There could be no doubt that there was a great loss of fertilising power in matter now carried out to sea. No process had been discovered by which the fertilising power could advantageou ly and profitably be applied to agricultural purposes ; but he could not avoid entertaining a hope that chemical science might yet before lone , suggest some in, thod by which this might be turned ' into a source of na ional wealth, instead of being thrown into the waters of the German Ocean. He fumed the house would agree to the second reading of the bill, and he trusted that the Go vernment would regard the suggestions thrown out for modifications. (Gear, bear, and cheers,) Mr. BUTLER thought it most unfair that a small portion of the metropolis only should pay towards the thes e the ' °a:rneeilso.a of ssoleVtwitilayeg sewage, as l e l d a t d n f o n d t r o t w it i : r e h b n y l r:t h r h makingpaaey itsconsidered o n proportion,sie of e r e d e metropolitan bill, unjust, and lie hoped the committee Rtlas being would have that defe c t remedied. The bill was then rea d a second time and ordered to be committed on W e d nesday. WAYS AND MEANS —HARBOURS OF Oa the report of ways E a F ght up, Mr. WILSON said he had g i ven notice b e r f his inters ou tiou to call the attention of the house to the report of the committee oa harbours of refuge, and to neove for an rid cress fir a Royal Commission in accordance there with, but he had since been given to understand that the Gevernrnent had no objection to grant a commis sion, and therefore lie was indisposed to take up tho time of the house with any obsertations. Sir J. PAKINGTON had no hesitai ion in saying that a Reryal Commission ought to be appointed to inquire into the localities for the new barb mon. Mr. LIDDELL hoped that the order of reference would be large and full, and that the commission would not be les rioted in taking the evidence they considered necessary. After a f.w worth from Mr. A. SMITH and Mr. DOB= SON, Mr. INGIIANI thanked the First Lord of the Admi ralty for the readiness with which he had agreed to issue the cornet ssion. Ile only wished to say, that if the instructions to the co:nruissiou were limited to the re coffirnendatioas of the committee, there was some am biguity in the;:e recommendations as to the limits within which such harbour.) should be constructed, He trusted the Admiralty would take care to mike the instructions as clear and precise as possible, so that the commissioners would be required to point cut the best spot for the bar ly3urs in the respective districtp. Mr. WILSON appealed to hon. onerriben not to pro ceed with any dents at present, having, in fact, post poned his motion until Thursday next, when they would have the terms of the motion bef,ife them. Mr. M•CANN concurred in that view, and had him. self postponed a motion which he had on the paper. Sir J. ELPHINSTONE was of opinion that the sub . . pet was one of paramount importance, and that it could ba dealt with as well that night as upon any future evening. ThE3 appalling 1 ;es of life and property on our coast every year was disgraceful to us, when the greater part could be saved by the outlay of a sum of money not greater than they wets now proposing to spend upon th e drainage of London. The number of lives annually lost was 3,000, the property lost upwards of two million. sterling ; and, from the large increase of our shipping of late years, the lose must is future increase. Mr. BENTINCK said this impel tact suljact had been trifled with too long, and he hope,d that au efficient cr,m-, mission would be issued, nod the while question tho roughly dealt with. Mr. DUFF suggested that no persoa should be ap pointed on the commission who had served oa any pre vious commi,sion. The subject then dropped. PUBLIC ACCOUNTS AND PUBLIC BUSINESS. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said he would take that op. portunity of impressing upon the Caancellor of the Ex chequer the importance of placing the financial state men,s on the table at a time when they might be useful, and nit so late at present. CLIANCELLOR of the EXOHEQUER said ar rangemeuti wet e in progress by which the financial state ments would be produced at au earlier periud in future. (flear, hear.) In answer to other questions, he had to state that ha t'• cright it probable the Government would not press the Chinese Passengers 811 this st's ior. Li e did Lot intend to procaed with the Civil Service Super annuation Bill—(hear, hear) —and at this period of the session it would, ho thought, be inexpedient to proceed further with the Police Force (Ireland) Bill. (11:ar, hear.) . The report was then agreed to. CORNWALL SUBMARINE MINES DILL. On the motion that th© house go into cotninittJe on this bill, M. tl. SMITH objected to proceeding farther with thi , bid, which defined rights of the Crown in Mich th. public had an interest, un it copies of all the docurnenta, cases, and opi , iions of counsel, submitted to Sir Join, Pattmn, rind upon which his arbitration WAS foueded were laid upon the table. He mo'ed to that eff, c t. _ _ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL gave the history of the bill, the object of which cas to carry into eff e, the arbitration of Sir J, Patteson, to whom it had been re ferred to ascertain the respective rights of the Crown and the Duchy of Cornwall to minerals between high and low water mark, and below low water mark. After a few words from Mr. Vl l YLD the amendment was negatived, and the house went into committee upon the bill, the clauses of which were agreed to with amend ments. THE JEWS BILL ; On the motion that the house go into committee on this bill, Mr. KNIGEITLEY said he thought that if the Lords intended to admit Jews to Parliament it would have been wiser to agree to the bill sent up to them by the Com mons than to pass this queer measure of an Irish com promise, accompanied by reasons why its provisions ought not to be acted upon by the house. Mr. GILPIN characterised the bill as a miserable subterfuve, and only a little better than nothing at all. Mr. BENTINCK declared that by the bill a direct and aggravated insult was offered to the House of Com mons and to the Jews themselves. He contended that the house was hound to include Turks, heretics, and infidels in the bill. Mr. SPOONER thought the bill a great disgrace to the other branch of the Legislature, and that it was an insult to this house to ask it to agree to a measure every word of which was reprobated except the object it was to carry out. Lord J. RUSSELL, at the request of Mr. SPooxEs, showed that there was nothing unconstitutional in the provisions of the bill. The house divided, when the numbers were— For going into committee 144 Against it Majority --104 _. _ The SPEAIER then left the chair, and the house went into committee, amidst roars Of laughter, on the dis covery having been made that Mr. Spooner, by a mis take, took the wrong turning in the passages to the division, and voted in efftct for the admission of the Jews to Parliament, instead of against it. The hon. member joined heartily in the laugh. The house then went into committee upon the bill, when Mr. SPOONER moved to add a proviso to the first clause, " That such resolution be not acted on till the clment of the Crown be signified to both Houses of Parliatneut." The motion was negatived, and this and the other clauees were agreed to without amendment. GOVERNMENT OF NEW CALEDONIA. BILL. The house _having resolved itself into committee on this bill, Mr. GLADSTONE said he presumed this bill bad been recommitted by the right hon. baronet the Secre tary for the Colonies, but not for the purpose of intro , ducing any material amendments in it. He would not, therefore, take up the time of the committee with any formal motion ; but he begged to submit for the con aideration of the committee what he believed to be the material construction of the bill. it was a matter of principle, an 4 he, for one, attached very great import ance to principle. The frame of the bill constituted a new Government for Caledonia, and it provided that at any fature period her Majesty's Government might es tablish free institutions in the colony. There appeared, then, to be two modes of establishing a colony—one of those was the true, and the other the false one. He thought the colony ought to be established, not on the principles that they established their convict colonies, but as a colony in which the society founding it should be empowered to at once originate free institutions. He wished that the Government could be prevailed upon to embody in the bill that they were about to found a free colony. He was quite prepared to place responsibility in the Executive Government. From the bill it would be supposed that we founded a colony not fit for free. dom. He regretted the terms in which the bill had been conceived and framed. Instead of being progressive, it was rather retrogressive ; and it merely calculated that a period would arrive when free institutions might be introduced into Ne v Caledonia. Mr. LABOUOLIERE agreed in the general principles stated by Mr. Gladstone as to the establishment and growth of free institutions in colonies about to be newly started, and alluded to the manner in which Vancouver's Hand had grown up. Tue old English constitution was the best with which they could start ; but there were peculiar features connected with the C Tony of New Caledonia, and having reference to the gold producing countries, to which they should not close their eyes. With those features staring them in the face, ha thought it would not have been prudent on the part of her Majesty's Government to go the length in the first instance which the right hon. gentleman contended for. Upon the whole, he thought the Government deserved credit for the manner in which the bill was framed, and he should feel inclined to give it support. The third clause, however, required ssme exelanation. The queen and C,uncil should not have the power of framing any coestitution as a permanent constitution without the consent of Parliament. Mr. ROEBUCK thought there was some mistake with regard to the powers of the Crown. Without any act of Parliament the Crown cool] give any constitution it pleased. It should be borne in mind that this bill wool 1 expire in four years, The measure would not aid the Colonial Secretary in the government of New Cale donia. They were spending their time for no purpose. They ought to have stated in the bill that at the end of three years representative institutions would be given to th e c)lony. Not having done that they had done no thing. It would be much better to allow New Cale donia to have tree institutions to-morrow than to leave it in doubt when they were to be established. Sir E. B. LITTON regretted that Mr. Gladstone had not expressed his vie ws on t h e second reading of the bill. 1 his was not an optional measure, but one rendered im perative by the i n f ormat i on which the Government had received. After reo o i v i ng t h e i ndulgent favour of the house in all the stages of the bill, they could not go back and accept the suggestion of the right honour able gentleman, which would alter the entire charac ter of the measure. In the Governor-General great responsibility must be placed. It was the desire of the Government that there should be representative In stitutions within the four years, if there were materials for them. If a separate population were rapidly formed in that part of the country, the Government might be advised to constitute an elective chamber. By an Order in Council the Crown could at once sanction two elective chambers. He felt the force of the obser vations of the hon. and learned gentleman as to the necessity of a sufficient force to enable the governor tee preserve order, and at the same time he would say that it would be desirable to regulate that force in accordance with the actual wants of the colony. Hs trusted, how ever, tuat the bill having so far received the support of the house, it would now be agreed to, to meet the urgent nece;sities of the case. Afer a few words from Mr. ROEBUCK in txplanation, Clause 1 was agreed to. Oa clause 2, Mr. BUET said that by the clause the present Govern ment, which was of an arbitrary character, might con tinue, without Parliament having the power to inter f,re. Re thought the clause should be amended, to rendrrr it imperative to put an end to the arbitrary Government at the end of four years. Mr. BAILLIE said the power of doing se would rest with the Legislative Assembly. The clause was then agreed to. On clause 8, Mr. LALOUCUERE objected that the clause gave this country the power to establish any form of govern. ment she chose—a power which she did not possess in any other colony. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the short answer to the objection was, the whole question would have to be reconsidered at the natural expiration of the act, and it would then be absolutely necessary to come to Parlia ment again, if the colony in the meantime did not es tablish self-governing institutions. Mr. LABO I JOHERE did not see any necessity for coming again to the house on the Expiration of the act, while, in fact, the clause gave the Government the power of establishing whatever institutions they thought proper at the end of the four years. Such a course would be exceedingly inconvenient. Mr. ROEBUCK did not see the fume of the objec tion. The Queen had the power of giving by charter any constitution she thought proper ; and the moment that constitution was given, the colony would have the rower of taxing itself. Lord J. RUSSELL said the statements of his right hon. friend and the hon. and learned member for Shef fo ld were not inconsistent with each other. The Queen had the power of giving a eons:Ration by charter, but the taxing powers of any legislative assembly would de pend upon the paople of the colony. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL concurred in the views expressed by the noble lord on this point. The clause was agreed to, as were the remaining causes and the preanalle ; and the house having resumed, the bill was reported. CIIELSEA. BRIDGE. The amendments to this bill were considered, and Easter and Whit-Monday added to the Sundays when the people would be allowed to pass over the bridge toll force. THE PUBLIC HEALTH BILL. Oa the third reading of this bill, Mr. CONING HAM gave notice that be would nes session call attention to the question of vaccination. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brough in two bills, one to authorise the emboJiment of th militia, and the other enable her Mejesty to accep their services abroad. The Approprlationßill was brought in and read a:first time. The houso then adjourne lat half-past two o'clock. BIRTHS. LIKE—On the 18th inst., the wife of Colonel Henry Atwell Lake, C. 8., Aide-do-Camp to the Queen, of 80t. LYSONS —On the 15th inst., at Molden Lodge, Surrey, the wife of Colonel D. Lysons, C. 8., of twin sons. illooN—On the 17th inst., at Fetcham Rectory, Leather head, the wife of the Rev. E. Graham Moon, of a daughter. MARRIAGES. FRANCIS - FRANCIS--On thn 13th inst., at St. George'a, Eloomsbury, George Francis, Esq., of Ceylon, to Caro line Susanna, daughter of the late Wm. Francis, Esq., of Reigate, Surrey. _ DEATHS. ALLNU T—On the 16th inst., at his residence, Stone Cot tage, St. Peter's, Thanet, Charles Allnutt, Esq., aged 61. Cox—On the 13th inst., at 42, Newington-place, Kenning ton-park, Mr. George Cox, aged 74. •.01rDobr: Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNO of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. t 1:, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, is thecounty of iliddlesex, Tuesiay, July 2), 1855. NIR. at d I ti 6118 ENT ERT. bY Mr. Atli sverY evening exc e p Ad mission Is , at the Royal ' Gallo Cramer, B eale , and ( VEIRISTY'S —TIIREE TA IN MENT.—Cha Oper Bask. at 3. a'aek. la. The Patrons of thi C ompany start for t eatll Ay fr ' s esc i D n o A A / i — d nte l o r f t f a ul OYAL G -- Cirque oriental —. orni from half-past IT•11. TUESDAY an Ascent —Extra Fire Admission. FATHEI PHYSICIAI Portant subject dall , market), at Four ar T)R. RAHS IT' ItARRIAGE N' , Ste., receipt of twelve eta ALHAMBI (The best ' Arrangements OMR!nal GENERA Palace, on MOND) for a sport season, i CIRCUS COMPA. unrivalled Troupe SPLENDID STUI day Entertainment Pit, Boxes 21, PA, le. ; Gallery ' No fees fo r booking kpOTTISW NEW-BTRZT convenience nf If, Sc O, 6T tc,: 8, and Mitt At 9, PARLIAMENT- GREAT fr EXCIIIISI - -nnt Paddington BriVol at 630 p:t and 7 8.; Bath, 12s. r 0 R . JANJ The Warrants fc and pays 11)Iir'3° d iat J l i i :e, ta l n 8 5 t1 .:. Prospect _ . II" Gi ,NOTIcE IS f•li :AItLY DIVID h instant, is Company, 62 Kin In d Four. ' J ulY 1 9, NM IVI ETR( ASSIJR2 London. S. °41 ' 13- on adyantag .17.i3. Policies i t f iss uredwithin tl be ing deducted f 4 n l POwered b BRITA; EmPOwere N ~berof Poll rents) cI t4)4 Pwe:errdipgt( w 914 particip lITTERN") SOCIETY, bas been _as . been and stil "Ildea of assura ellr ring Within t premium death be gl' Or .grue. - TRE J k-Averea b y VIVORS t w tlAl(” tn. lienwol Samuel King. 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