The Sun. — London, England, 1858-06-12 00:00:00

tation of our shores. (Hear.) The hon. and gallant ad miral has alluded to some o bservations which I made on the probability of war, under certain circumstances, with France ; but, without reviving any controversy on remind the house that that was those expressions, I may an opinion given upon the assumption that there were eufficienf, or at least important, causes at work, and had been long at work, that might have produced so lament able and disastrous a result. At the present moment, however, so far as France is concerned, we are not only in frequent but constant communication, and if it were the wish or supposed interest of France to pick a quarrel with England, ma n y o pp or t un iti es m i g ht easily be obtained, when we are combining together to regulate the affairs of Europe under difficult circum stances, by which such an unfortunate state of affairs might be brought about. I am bound to say, in answer to this question of the hon. and gallant gentleman, that he really has made no statement to the house by which he can substantiate his assertion that vast war:ike pre parations are being made by France at this moment by sea and land. He has laid no foundation to induce the house to believe that there is a state of affairs existing at this moment with respect to our relations with that Power under this particular bead of armament different from that which he admits existed a considerable time since. No information has reached her Majesty's Go vernment that there are being made at this moment those extraordinary preparations by sea and land of which he has spoken. (Hear,) I need not reassure the house that at the present moment the relations between the two countries are of a cordial and confidential nature—(hear) —and that at this moment we are acting w ith the prin cipal Powers of Europe, and especially with . France, in the management and regulation of most delicate and im portant interests, under circumstances whic h certainly would seem to indicate that the object , .1 and such hope will be the result, of all our labours is the maintenae ce of the peace of Europe, and not its outrageous disturb ance, as the hon. and gallant admiral has anticipated. But, though the gallant admiral has limited his questions to inquiries as to some parts of Europe, he has travell e d across the Atlantic and reminded us that troubl e s are preparing for us in America. Unquestionably the house is now familiar with the circumstances. It is possible that, from the excited state of feeling that prevails in the "United States upon a particular subject, embarrassing and even mischievous results might occur in the interval that would elapse before communications from this coun try had reached the Government of America. But these are accidents which no policy can possibly guard against ; and, remembering the natural sympathy that exists between the citizens of the United States and the subjects of her Majesty, and that between the existing Government of the United States and her Majesty's Government upon all the great principles of policy which should regulate their relations there is a complete accordance, I will not anticipate that those em barrassing and mischievous accidents would occur. I will hope that, these unfortunate accidents not taking place, there would be that which I am convinced will be the result, a complete understanding between the two Governments upon those circumstances which have cer tainly for a moment placed our relations in considerable danger. But, speaking generally upon the subject, what I venture to impress upon the house is that it is not the policy or the interest of England always to give credit to foreign Governments for the worst intentions. (Loud cheers.) I must express my opinion that a policy—vigi lant I grant it should be, and vigilant I, on the part of her Majesty's Government, pledge myself to the gallant admiral it shall be—(cheers)—and firm, but at the same time conciliatory, just, adapted to settle all those ques tions of controversy that may arise between the different nations and Governments, is more likely to adjust hap pily those differences than a policy of suspicion, which is always ready to show to foreign nations that you do not give them credit for those feelings upon which civilisa tion depends. (Cheers.) Now, we have had within the last few hours a very significant proof, I think, of the justice of my observations. Within these few hours we have received a despatch which shows that a state of affairs in one part of the world which caused us, I hesi tate not to say, great disquietude, and which I even admit did seem to endanger the peaceful relations of Eu ropean States, has been happily terminated. (Hear.) We have within these few hours received a despatch from Naples, informing us that his Majesty the King of Naples has granted and is prepared immediately to pay adequate and I may say ample compensation to the Eeglish regi• neers—(loud and repeated clicers)—and, more thee that, that the King of Naples has placed the Sardinian ship Cagliari and the whole of its crew at the disposal of the Queen of England. (Loul cheers.) Mr. Lyons adds that on the next day the Neapolitan officers were to call upon him to receive his instructions as to the delivery of the Cagliari, and that he awaits the instructions of my noble friend the Secretary of State fer Foreign Affairs. In those instructions, which before the house met Were despatched to Naples, Mr. Lyons has been instructed to deliver the, Cagliari and its crew to the command of its late captain, and the general super intendence of Mr. Barber, the caneul, who throughout this affair has conducted himself with so much spirit and ability. (Cheers.) The Cagliari, under the command of the same Sardinian captain, manned with the came Sar dinian crew, and under the general authority of Mr. Barber, will sail to Genoa, and there 141 r. Barber wid deliver the Cagliari and its crew to the authorities of the King of Sardinia. (Loud cheers.) Now, hut a very short time ago these were circumstances that caused, and justly, the greatest anxiety in the public mind—(hear) ; and if we had pursued another course, which at the mo ment might have obtained considerable approbation, we might have brought about results of a very different cha. ranter, and have thrown Europe into confusion. Acting, however, with firmness, but at the same time with con ciliation and in a spirt cf justice, we have obtained thin most satisfactory conclusion of these troublesome affa:re and a new guarantee for the maintenance of the peace of Europe. (Cheers.) If there were those evil disposi tions which are attributed with so much facility to fo reign States, do not you think that they would have seized this opportunity of throwing the greatest difficul. ties in the way of the peaceful solution of this question ? (Cheers.) But on the contrary, we have had, through out, the sympathies of this very Power to whom ther.e evil dispo,itions are imputed. We have had the ,ympa thies of France, and have been able to bring to this most ratisfactary termination these difficult, and at one time distressing, circumstances. Well, animated by seeing the result of a policy such as I have described, I cannot con cur in the views which the gallant admiral has attempted to enforce upon the house. This I whi eay—that, what ever may be the state of our alliances, the state of the dr fences of thi s c o u n t r y oug ht t o be complete. (Cheers) C nsiderin cur i nsu l ar pos iti on , an d th e great wea l t h o f this country, we oug ht, t o t a ll y i n d epen d ent of all dipl matic circumstances—totally irrespective of what may be the results of a iskilul and adroit policy —we cuAt ' abstractedly speaking, if I may use the expression,' to lay down as a first condition that England should be adequately and completely defended. (Cheers.) Bat what is adequate for the complete defence cf the country must be left to those who have the difficulty and responsibi lity of the direction of affairs. If we are wanting, if events prove hat we are wanting, is thoughtful vigi lance or preparation upon this mow; important subject, the consequence to us must be of the most awkward de scription. But I would ask the house to give us credit for attempting, and I hope not unsuecesetully, to do our duty in this important respect, and let the 1 1, use believe that the state of cur &bane a with the great Powers of Europe, although not free from ifficulty and anxiety, for that they never can he, is a state very encouraging to the cause of peace. (Hear, hear.) Were they, how ever, of a very different cheracter, the state of this coun• try is such that we may confidently hope, under any cir cumstances, to be able to defend our shores and vindi- cats our honour. (Loud cheers.) - • Mr. BENTINCK thought that the right hon. gentle man had somewhat misapprehended the °Lent of the . question of the hon, and gallant admiral. The right bon. gentleman had te le the house that he was not aware of any extensive preparations being made abroad. [Mr. • Disraeli—" I said extraordinary, not extensive."] Very well, extraordinary preparation?, and he also added that the relations between this country and foreign Powers • were of the most cordial description. Now, they had been informed a short time ago b y t h e right bon. gen tleman at the head of the Admiralty th a t, d ur i ng a ver y considerable portion of the tenure of (Zee of the . late Government, the coasts of the country were • totally without defence, That statement, made a • very short time back, had received no contra diction from the late First Lord of the Admiralty, and therefore he was justified in assuming that such was the • case when the present Government t iok office. He was ' tot going to raise the question as to what were exten sive or extraordinary preparations in neighbouring coun ' tries, but this he would say, that these preparations had ' been carried on for some time until this country had be come weak in relation to other countries. What the hen. and gallant admiral wished to know, and he con ' cnrred with him in feeling anxiety for the information ' which he sought, was whether in owe of any unforeseen •emergency we should be able to defend the coasts of this country. He did not impugn the zeal or ability of the right hon. gentleman or his colleague*, but at the same time he thought that house and the country had a right to know upon what they depended for the defence of the country. He did not anticipate a French in ea ion— (hear) —but it was a disgraceful position for a county which ' called itself the mistress of the seas to be actually in doubt - whether or no she was able to defend her own shores, ' The gallant admiral had not anticipated an Invasion, for be relied upon the good faith—and he quite concurred 1r in that opinion —of the Emperor cf the French, which perhaps, joined to his moderation, had prevented a col . lision at a time when circumstances into which he should • not enter bad created strong feelings of irritation in the two countries. It might, however, happen that circum . stances might arise when that distinguished man would tat have events within his own con t ro l ; an d it was a meat fah. and proper question, and one t o w hi c h th e count r y. l ead a right to expect an answer, to ask the Go vernment what were the actual defences of the country, and wh ether - stances to th,teenedvere in a position, un d er an y circum -- Mr. ielNIKIA.;1:11 chorea ? (Hear.) state rise to e n t er i n to a discus . sion, but mer e l y to that he for one bad been muc h pleased with the statement chequer, who had shown thaotfhthe Ch ance ll or o f th e Ex -0 was repared for defence aga i ns t any invasi on , and that, at the same time, he did not wish to entailunnecessa r y diture on the fu n d s of the country. As regarded th l e a, vzu, they sev l) ere told w that there .were abundance of sbPip 4i 11 culty was in manning them , but in cage of invasion sea mene . from the merchant service w ould be ready those ships and fight foetheir hearths and homed. (Mar.) IA his own opinion a French invasion was a mere idle dream, and it would be most desirable, if it could be dose, instead of England building more ship because she was afraid of Frave, or France building more allie s from fear of England, to come to a mutual arrangement, • as there was no other maritime power of which either - them - of - them°deed be afraid, co lithit their naval' forces to an amount agreed upon by both. Mr. BRIGHT said—The hon. gentleman below me who introduced this matter has put a question to the THE SUN, Government, and the hon. member for Norfolk has put 1 a question to everybbdy in this house. Now, I stall just put one question to them, and I should be glad some evening to receive a distinct answer to it. I want know the precise expenditure or of i ac-• • . !and or sea ! Iwhich is required in order to say that this country is completely defended. (Hear.) It appear to me that gentlemen who, from their profession should be the last to take alarm are continually driving these terrors into the ears of peaceable non-military persons like myself. (A. laugh.) Only a few years had ago a sound of alarm of a French invasion the claps raised, and others kept succeeding it like claps cf a thunderstorm in summer. Does the hon. member oppo•ite recollect that, not including the ex• pense of armaments, a much larger sum has been voted .during the present year for the national defences than, I believe, ever has been spent in time of peace ? We spend twice as much now as we did 20 years ago, al though, as far as any application of that expenditure goes, we have net a single foot of territory more to defend than we had then. I sho uld li ke t o know to what all this tends, and to what length we are to go ; because, if ever the unhappy day should arrive in my lifetime, when, instead of spending 22,000,000/. on defensive armaments, we shall be spending 44,000,0001., I undertake to prove, by the same arguments as have been used by th e t wo gentlemen who have just addressed the house, that this country is in a state of almost absolute want of defence. I would undertake, with the map of England in my hand, to indicate at least 100 points on which an enemy might land ; I could also show that France was inha bited by a large population accustomed to war ; I could talk about (their avenging Waterloo, and all the other stock stories which are regularly trotted out on occasions of this nature, and I could establish then, as clearly as can be established now, that we were run ning the greatest possible risk, and that the nation was slumbering while it was on the edge of a most fearful precipice. I know a certain old lady of 80 years of age (a laugh), whom some people have been trying to frighten within the last few days. A. most plausible circular, written by some professor—of what he is a professor I can't say—was put by some simpleton before the some• what dimmed eyes of this old lady ; but she says, " I am not at all alarmed, for I have lived in the world 80 years, and as long a I can recollect there has always been a story afloat that there was going to be a French invasion." (Laughter.) I dare 'ay hon. gentlemen have read Horace Walpole's letters, in one of which— I forget exactly its date, for my memory does not nerve me as to dates—an anecdote is told of there having once been a great alarm about an invasion ; and it is said there was found to be nothing in it,—that it was used, as apothecaries say cf something of which they give very nauseous doses, as a " vehicle," the object of those who compound it being to make the patient "swallow the Hessians," (Laughter.) The case isjust the same now. There is an uneasiness in the country relative to taxation. I had a letter this morning—which I am very sorry I did not bring here with me—from a small master cutler, probably a constituent of the hoe. and learned member for Sheffield. This man kas a large number of children, whom he has a bard struggle to support ; his trade is bad ; and he says, " For Heaven's sake let us try if possible to have a different foreign policy, smaller armaments, fewer quarrels, lighter taxer, and a better chance for an industrious man to maintain himself and his family. (Hear, hear.) I am asked by persons in this house, and come people out of doors— who do not look very deeply into these matters, put the same question to me—why do you show something like favour to a Conservative Government, and why were you accessory to putting the gentlemen now in opposi tion on their present benches ? If I wanted an answer to this it would be found in the speech which the Chan cellor of the Exchequer has made to us to-night. (Cheers.) These are not questions of aristocracy and democracy, they are not questions of Conservatism and Radicalism ; they are questions of the obvious interests of our coun try and of humanity at large. And I say a Government that would adopt a foreign policy based on moderation and justice is one that I should be disposed to see on the Treasury bench, in preference to any other Govern ment which pretended to a great exhibition of English power in all parts of the world. The right hon. gentle. man has described what has been done with respect to Naples. All the difficulty with respect to .Naples arose from the unseemlyconduct pursued towards that country a year and a-half ngo by the Ei.glish Government. It is row at an end. The moderate and cone liatory policy of England has been met by an equal moderation on the part of the Neapolitan Governn2ent ; aad that squabble i 3 now buried we hope for ever. We have another thing at present on hand—this American question, which I presume is owing to the sending out of gunboats and Iships to the Cuban or West Indian station during the het year, and also, I suppose, to the instructions issued by the late Government, under which our commanders in those waters, acting with what is called more vigour, have done that which the United States' nation wculd not stand any more than I am sure the Ladish would do under the like circumstances. (Hear.) Then we have another matter in the China question, to which I would ask the attention particularly of the hon. member who introduced this subject. If you are to have 70 or, as I think the right honourable gentleman said, 60 Ship, af war in the Eastern seas, carrying on a quarrel which yon don't understand, and engaged in a com plication which yon might have avoided,—if your are to have all thin great armament stationed at a distance of 10,000 or 15,000 ranee from you,—l ask what amount of revenue or of taxation which can possibly be raised will ever give you what you suppose you require— namely, large fleets to defend your coasts at home? Now, the course which the Government have taken in this matter is a truly Conservative course. There is' no true Conservatism which is not based on a true morality. And whether at home or abroad, I behave it is possible for a Government, without bravado and with out boasting., to confer solid benefit on the country, and, whatever may have been its past profession of politics, to gain a substantial support from the people. I did not intend to make more than one observation when I rose ; but I have heard the statement of the right hon. gentleman with extreme pleasure. I believe it will give equal sati,faction throughout the country. (Cheers.) I only hope the house and the nation will sustain the present Government in every effort they may make to restore our foreign relations to a state of tracquility and safety, so that we may be able to turn our attention to that from which we have been diverted for the last five years—namely, the process of reduciog our expenditure in order, if possible, to render England a country which all Englishmen Arta prefer, rather than one from which they have incessant inducements to emigrate to every other part of the globe. (Cheers.) Sir C. WOOD—I so entirely agree in what has been said as to the inconvenience of raising general discus sions on foreign policy upon the formal motion for adjournment till Monday, that I shall confine my attention to the conduct of the late Govern ment, especially in the department with which I was connected, which has been so much impugned by the hon. members br Norfolk and for Birmingham. The farmer hon. gentleman said that we left the country in a most defenceless state, and that it was necessary for our successors to make strenuous exertions in order to replace the armaments of the country on *something like a proper footing. I appeal to the must unexception able testimony as to the utter erroneousness of this representation. The noble earl at the head of the pre sent Government himself admitted in another place that he bad been both surprised and gratified, at the period of his accession to office, to learn that the impression which had previously prevailed in regard to the national defences was entirely unfounded, and that he had found the country both by land and sea in a complete state of defence. (Hoar, hear.) Well, what has been the °ln duct of the present Government since then ? Tney very properly took time to consider the estimates which we had prepared, but which had not been actually voted when they came into power, and the First Lord of the Admiralty took votes on account several weeks before he definitively brought forward the navy estimates, And did the course which, after due reflection, the right hon. gentleman pur-ued indicate any belief on his part that the country was ieefficieetly de fended 1 Why, he did not deem it necessary to re commend the addition of a single man to the num ber proposed by his predecessors—(hear, hear)—and as to the votes fer the dockyards and the building of ships, he actually reduced the estimates which we had prepared. I said at the time that I thought the reduc tion injudicious, and I shall retain that opinion. Yet the hon. member fcr Norfolk talks of the Herculean labour which we imposed on our successors. Mr. BENTINCK explained that he had spoken of the alerts that were necessary to place the defences of the country in a positign to meet an emergency when the hats G overnment l eft office. Sir C. WOOD - It is clear that the present Govern ment must have believed the national defences to be in a safe condition, for they thought proper to reduce our estimates. But I pass on to the assertien of the hon. member for Birmingham, that whatever complications might exist in America arose from the instructions sent out by the late Government to the officers of the West Indian station. Now, it is perfectly true that I sent out additional gunboats to be employed in checking the s l a ve trade, which was raising its bead again in those waters ; but I can inform the hon. gentleman of what heevidently cannot know—viz., that no new instructions whatever have been issued to our commanders in the West Indies, and that those officers are still actingon the instructions which were drawn up in the year 1844, studious desire h ged t o avoid jn giving j ust cause of , I believ e , b y Si r G. oaffieth a once, a Cockburn. What I have said has been rather in the way of caution ; but this a ieoint on which some misappre hension has prevailed in the minds of hon. members, and I am glad to have had this opportunity of stating that nothing whatever was done by the Government with which I was connected which could lead the officers in command of vessels engaged in checking the slave trade to do anything which they would not have done any time during the last 15 yea's. (Hear, hear.) Mr. HEADLAM did not rise to answer the very diffi cult question proposed by the hon. member for Birming ham as to the cost at wisich the expense of the defencesof this country could be def:ayed. [laving regard to the existing state of Europe and to the demands neces serily made upon the forces of this country, ho did not think that they were at this moment greater than wee absolutely needed. Having early in the session taken an active part in calling the attention of her l'ilajeste's Government to the caste of the British engineers in Naples,and leaving urged upon them further steps than they then seemed disposed to adopt, he should not act rightly towards them if, upon the announcement of the result , of th e i r negotiations , he did not tender to them his eJngzatulatio ns upon their success, an 4 Lis great ! , atia• faction at the favourable issue cf their exertions. (Hear, hear ) W ith respect to the question of our defences, he was not an alarmist : Ile e n ertained no fears of an in vasion from France, but a t th e same ti me, remem b er i ng how differ en t t h e event s cf the last 10 years had been from any which cool;[ have been anticipated, he thought LONWON, SATURDAY EVENING, JUNE 1 - 2, 1858: that we could not with confidence upon any predictions as to what might occur in the future. (Hear, hear.) He desired peace as ardently as the hon. member for Bir mingham himself ; but he was convinced that the true mode of securing tranquillity was for our Govern mint on all occasions to use firm and dignified language, and that they could not do unless they felt that our defences were adequate to the magnitude of the interests which had to be protected, and to the importance of this country in the world. Having heard with great satisfaction the statement of the right hon. gentleman as to the termina lion of negociations at Naples, and many of the difficul ties in that matter having arisen from the suspension of our diplomatic relations with that countr y, he should be glad to bear that the whole affair was at an end, and that those relations bad been resumed. (Hear, hear.) Colonel FRENCH asked the right hon. gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty when the commission upon manning the navy would be issued. The names of the members had for some time been known at the clubs. It was said the commission was to con'ist of Lord Eiard wicke, Admiral Martin, Lord Chandos, Mr. Litei4ay, Mr. Cardwell, Mr. Green, and Capt.in Shepherd. He hoped that the usual course would be followed, and that his hon. and gallant friend (Sir C. Napier), who moved for the appointment of the commission, would also be pieced upon it. Sir J. PAKINGTON—The bon and gallant admiral who commenced this discussion complained that although three weeks have elapsed since he moved the appointment of a royal commission to inquire into the manning of the navy, it has not yet been issued. The commission is now ready, the list of members is complete, and if there is any further delay, it will only be such as is required in order to comply with the various forms which must be gone through before the commission can be made public. With regard to the statement that the names have been currently talked of in the clubs, I can only say that such ought not to have been the case. I have never communi cated the names of those who were likely to serve on this commission, except in confidence, and only in cases in which such communication was unavoidable. How it was that the names became known I cannot tell, but I have no hesitation in saying that they ought not to have been known. I have not authorised their publication, and I will repeat what I said when a similar statement was made by an hon. and gallant officer behind me (admiral Duncombe, that at the time he madejthat statement one of the names had not been officially settled. Consider ing the difficul'y which every hon. gentleman must know attends the formation of a Royal commission, the anxiety the Government must feel to appoint the most competent persons, the fro. iency with which it happens that those who are applied to are unable to serve, and the fact that in this case the Whitsuntide holidays immediately followed the adoption of the reso lution for the issuing of the commission, I hope that the house will feel that the lapse of three weeks has not been an unreasonable delay. (Hear, hear.) I will now say a few words in consequence of the extent to which the hon. and gallant admiral opposite (Sir C. Napier) and my hon. friend the member f Norfulk (Mr. Bentinok) have in the course of this discussion referred to the state of the naval defences of this country. After what has been said by my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in every word of which I most heartily con cur, I shall say but a very few words. My hon. friend the member for Norfolk, referred to what fell from me two or three months ago in moving the navy estimates. I then stated my opinion, which I am now fully prepared to repeat, that it was not becoming the dignity of this country, it was not consistent with its safety orsecurity, that our coasts should be left so destitute of naval de fence as they had been during the winter months in con sequence of the detention of so large an amount of our forces in China and India. (Hear.) I entertain these feel ings now as strongly as I did then ; but, in expressing them, I do not thereby intimate the slightest doubt of the loyalty and good faith of our ally the Emperor of the Fla nch, or intend to convey either to this house or to the pubic that I sympathise with the alarms of which I have heard alai great regret. (Hear.) If any such feel iegs prevail in the public mind, it is undoubtedly Lateral, and perhaps right, that they should find utterance in his house ; but at the same time I Lel, and I hope the house will feel, that we cannot too strongly depre cate either speeches in this house or articles in news papers which tend to excite alarm in the public mind when there is no jest ground for such a feeling. (Cheers.) I think hon. members will agree with me that the only result of Ella/ speeches and such articles will be to create two great dangers aLd evils—panic and alarm—in the public mind in this city, and too probably irritation in the mind of our allies the French, whom it is our desire and our pcicy to conciliate in every honour able way. (Hear.) Consistently with these feelings, and consistently with the opieion I have a'ready ex pressed that it is not becoming the dignity of England that we should be without naval defences on our chores, I can state that the present Government have from their accession to office exerted themselves to the ut most to make those defences effective, not from any alarm, not from any doubt of the loyalty of our allies, but from a feeling that this country ought under a'l cir cumstances to be prepared for any emergency which may arise, I am happy to say that the hon. and gallant admiral in the course of his speech underrated— uninten• tionally, I am sure—the naval power of this country ; and am bound to statetlaatlat this time we coutd at the shortest notice assemble in the Channel a fleet which would I be- lieve, be able to cope with any that any other Power of Europe could send out. (Hear.) I feel it my duty to make that statement, hoping that I shall not be understood to imply any alarm, but the reverse The house has heard from my right hon. friend how satisfactory is the present state of our foreign rela tions ; and, in conclusion, I desire to say that while on the one hand, the Government feel it to be their imperative duty to take care that the naval dcfencus of this country shall be satisfactory, and shall be worthy of its dignity and power, on the other we are no less desirous of adopting with regard to all foreign Powers a policy so conciliatory as to make any resort to thosa defences quite unnecessary. (Hear.) THE ARREST OF CAP rAIN JUDKINS-THE CONSUL GENERIL OF BELGRADE -COM PENSATION TO THE ENGLISH ENGINEERS. Mr. HORSFALL, in calling the attention of the house to the arrest of Captain Judkins, of the Royal mail steamer Persia, in New York, on the 16th of May last, said that though Captain Judkins had been libe rated on bail, he was bound to go back to America in order to stand his trial. Captain Judkius in obeying the sanitary laws of New York—a case of smallpox hating occurred on beard his ship—refused to permit an American custom-bousa officer to go on shore, and for this he was arrested. The peculiarity of his case was this, that while obeying the law of the state of N ew York he violated the law cf the United States ; but it was extremely hard upon Captain Judkins that he should be made to suffer from this nAlflict of the Ame rican laws. The Mayor of New York said that it Cap taM Judkins Lad acted otherwise than ho had he would have subjected himself to punishment b 9 fine and im prisonment. He hoped that her Mai sty's Government would u ,, .e their friendly interference to have this un just proceeding against Captain Jtidkins quashed, and what was of still m ore i m p or t ance , to prevent a recur rence cf auy similar proceeding. (Rear.) Viscount BURY, referring to the telegraphic dn.:pat c h which stated chat an attack had been made on the EMU Consul. General of Belgrade on the 7 , ,1a of June, asked whether the Government had received any inforwa ion on the coAject ? _ _ , . Mr. RIDLEY asked how much had been granted by way of cotupen-ation to the two English engineers, and whether the Kiog of Naples had granted the compensa tion of his own mere motion, without the concession cf any third party ? Mr. S. FITtGERALD said that the Government had no knowledge of the circumstances connected with the case of Capt. Judkins, but from the statement of the hen. gentleman there could be no doub t t h at he was placed in an unfair position. His case would r ece i ve t h e anxious attention of the Government, and every repre sentation, such as his hon. friend desired, would be made, and he had the fullest confidence, from the administra tion of the law and ihe sense of justice prevailing in the United States, that Captain Judkins would receive en tire satisfaction. (l-leer, hear.) With regard to the attack on the British Consul at Belgrade, her Majesty's Government had received•a similar telegraphic message to that referred to by the noble lord, and immediately on receipt of that message her Majesty's Government sent a telegraphic message to Mr. Colquhoun, the British consul at Bucharest, to proceed to Belgrade to inquire into the circumstance, and to take such steps as might be necessary. (Clteetee) With regard to the third quest five, ho could not say—because he possessed no know• ledge of it—whether any communication had parsed between any other powers and the court of Naples. He could only say that the redress afforded was in answer t oa categorical demand made by the Foreign office, and sent by a messenger, who was directed to wait ten days for a reply, and to return at once if no satisfactory reply was given. (Elem . , hear.) A satisfactory reply was given, and the sum paid as compensation to the engi neers was 3,0001. (Loud cheers.) THE INDIAN DOCUMENTS. Sir E. PERRY hoped th t he noble lord (LordiStanley) would reconsicLr his decision with respect to the Indian despatches, and that he would publish alone he had re ceived without waiting for their arrival in an official form. PRINCE EDWARD'S ISLAND. Mr. GLADSTONE said that there was a bill amongst the ordtri4 of the day fyr guaranteeing a loan on behalf el Prince Eiward's ',land. That involved a principle of great importance—the guaranteeing of loans to co lonies, and the practice of the colonial legislature rais ing loans in anticipation that aguarantee wouli be given by this house. He Loped that the discussion of the bid would not be taken at a late hour of the evening. He had, some five or six weeks ago, moved for certain papers connected with this subj et, and he tru4ed they wpuld be in the hands of members before the discussion came on. Sir E. 13 LYTTON said the subject was under his comidera':don. 113 had not yet been able to come 0 any decision, and therefore legged his right hon. friend would repeat the question on Monday, .The niotLqi lir the adjournment to Mondry wa2 then figued to, EAST INDIES (TUE DECCAN). houie copies o f th e proclamation of On the motion of Sir L. Penny, th ere was ordered to phinstone to the l an dh o ld ers of the .. b i e r l . ai: lo b u e t f l o ts r t e u t l it r o t Deccan, on its conque.tt in 1819 ; and of instructions issued at the same period to the local conanyssioners re specting the observance of native usages an d customp. THE INDIAN RESOLUTIONS. The house went into commitiee on the 4dian reaolu• tions, Mr. Fitzroy in V° chair. The di euseion was resumed on the third resolution, which refers to the number of the courcA. Mr. FITZROY said the question he had to put was, that the word " more" be inserted before the words " than twelve." Lord J. RUSSELL, after referring to the last discus sion relative to the number of the council, moved that the council should consist of not less than twelve mem here, and ~a id it was necessary, before the committee agreed to the number, they should first consider the nature and duties of the council they were about to form. The committee had decided there should be a council presided over either by a Secretary of State or the President of the Board of Control, and various questions arose as to the constitution of the council. It was necessary they should in the first place form a clear notion for what purpose they proposed the council. (Hear, hear.) He considered it should be a council con sisting of persons of high character, and it was a ques tion with many whether the council should be composed of a half or a greater portion of persons of Indian ex perience. There were many persons who had served in India, who bad ruled over millions, and whose decrees were decisive, it would be desirable to have in th's COM:- cil, but they were averse to accepting subordinate situa tions, or such as they thought derogatory for them to accept—such as Meuntstuart Elphinstono and Metcalfe. They must take care, both with regard to the position, salary, and tenure of those offices, they should be such as men of high distinction would be willing to accept. With regard to the number of the council, it was desir able they should not have a larger number than they would require for the due transaction of the business. Her Majesty's Government having intimated that the number should not be less than twelve, he thought that with regard to the division of business into four com mittees, three to each committee, that the business might be carefully and deliberately conducted—viz., one committee for finance, one for the army and navy, one for the internal government of India, compromising the administration of jestice, and one for foreign affairs ; but in order to enable such men as he had named to transact the business, it would be necessary to provide each committee with an able secretary, which would be upon the principle of transacting the business of the Colonial-office--viz., each department was under the direction of an able man. Alt the members of the coun cil should hold a State dignity, such, for instance, as privy councillors; and he thought they ought not to pre clude the members of the council from having seats in that house—(hear)—any more than the members of the pre sent Court of Directors. (Hear.) The salary proposed by her Majesty's Government for the members of the coun cil was 1,0001. each, and as some persons possessed, probably, an absurd feeling that the importance of an office was measured by the amount of salary, he sug gested that the amount should be 1,5001., a-year. And, as bee Majesty's Government bad intended eighteen councillors at 1,0001. a-year, if the committee agreed to twelve with a salary of 1,5001. it would increase the salaries without any increase of contemplated expense. The secret committee, estabiished in 1793, ought not to be continued. The members of the council ought to possess the confidence of that house and of the country, and they should be entrusted with the whole knowledge of the affairs of India. All despatches ought to be laid before them, and the Secretary of State should be bound by them—(hear, hear) —the responsibility of final de cision resting with hies. (Hear.) In fitting out our armaments the expense should first fall upon this coun try, but finally upon the territories and people of India. (Hear, hear.) With regard to patronage, in order to get rid of any suspicion that the members of the colloid gave the preference to their relatives and friends overieersons of greater merit, and to prevent its accumulation in the hands of the Secretary of State, he thought it would be desirable to throw the appointments open to free c ,m -petition. (Hear, hoar.) The military and civil services of India were mcst distinguished services, and the promp titude, intelligence, and courage exhibited by the officers of the Indian service on the breaking rest of the mutiny, under circumstances unexpected, showed that no danger however appalling, deprived thorn of the power of com manding and directing their thoughts and energies to what required to be done on so great an emergency. (Cheers.) Another great subject that must come under the consideration of the committee was the administra tion of justice in India. (Hear, hear.) These were matters which would require, when the committee was appoiuted, full consideration. He thought it would be unwise during the present year to ettrmpt any great measure of legislation ; but he was anxious that a step should be taken for transferring the government of India to the Crown this sesbi )c, in order that at the next meeting f parliament the attention of the Govern ment might be directed seriously to the consideration of ell questions aff, cting the intere,ta of the people. (Hear, hear.) He concluded by moving that the members of the council should not exceed twelve. Sir J. GRAHAM thought it desirable that the noble lord should state in what manner it was proposed to nominate the members of the council, and what was their length of the proposed tenure. Lord J. RUSSELL said that he would suggest that the nomination should for the most part reel; with the Crown. If the-nomination were put in the bill he would not object to such a course, reserving to himself the right of objecting to any name that might be proposed. Ho thought that the best tenure of effice would be good behaviour, and be thought that was really the best tenure that could be adopted with respect to the members of the council. If it was the opinion of the committee that there should be a term of years, he thought it ought not to be less than ten years. Mr. ELLICE wished to know whether the noble lord proposed that all the appointments in India should be male abgo:utely by the Crown L,lrd JO LIN - RtSSELL said that he would suggest that the office of governor-general and the heads of the three presidencies should be absolutely appointed by the Crown. Lord STANLEY said that to make the question before the committee intelligible, lie would move to insert the words, " not more than 15." The noble lord had raised a great number of questions, but, however desirable it might be to ascertain the opinions of members on those points, he must remind -the house of the inconvenient position in which they would be by discussing all these points when they would have to vote simply as to the number of the council. The entire matter would have to be debated over again when they came to consider the resolution regulating the constitution and duties of the council, at the same time he admitted it was not easy to decide what the number ought to be without some consideration as to the nature of their duties. He agreed with the noble lord that the council should consist of men of high character and position, and of experience in India, and that men of that class would not join in a body in which they would be placed in a position inferior to men who have not filled such great and important offices. As to the number of committees, and the secretary to each, these were matters of mere departmental detail, which the house could not decide, but must be determined by those closely and intimately acquainted with the working of the department. The noble lord seemed to think that in future years the business would be transacted more in India, and less every year sent home. That was a difficult question; and, from his limited practical experience, he would not venture to decide, but he was not very sanguine as to a reduction of business. To have an effective supervision in important matters, they should have the habit of supervi sion, and to keep up the habit it would be necessary to ex tend it over a variety of matters of mere detail. Any one who was acquainted with the business of a department even one far less extensive and important than that of the Indian Government—must be aware that any change in the business of that department was always a matter of some difficulty and some inconvenience ; and to effect a sudden change was incompatible with the due performance of public duties. He thought, therefore, that however some . of them might look forward to a reduction in the amount of business to be performed in the Indian depart ment in future years, they had no right to speculate upon that; but if, 10 or 15 years hence, it was found that in consequence of the new arrangements the amount of busi ness was less than it had been, Parliament would no doubt diminish the number of the council. in proportion to the dimieution in the amount of work to be done. As re garded the question raised by the noble lord, whether the members of the council ought to have the title of privy councillors, he thought it was rather a suggestion 'thrown out by him than a question on which he expected the committee to express ateopinion. Ho was not at all averse to entertain a proposition of that nature. He felt very strongly that if they were to have an Indian coun cil—and the house had affirmed, and he thought wisely , theta council was necessary—it was very important that no means should he' left unemployed to give the members of this council a position of dignity in the eyes of the coun try. With regard to the much wider question, whether the members of this council might sit in Parliament, he thought that was a question on which there might very fairgrounds of argument either way. He knew it might be contended that, both for the sake of that honseand for the sake of the body which it was proposed to constitute, they ought not to exclude those whose ambition would lead-them to desire a seat le6th in that house and in the council ; but, on the whole, recollecting what the noble lord had said—and in that he quit e agreed—that the functions of the proposed council wore to be, as regarded the departmental affairs of India, the functions of a cabinet; considering that the noble lord proposed —and there also he agreed with him that should be no exclusive secret committee, but that all the members of the council should have a right to be informed of all that Dassed.with regard to Indian affairs, this seemed to him to furnish a very valid argument against the admis sion of those gentlemen to seats in that house. Although he was quite ready to admit that no mere party queerel would or ought to lead to a want of harmony between the minister for India and his council, still they must bear in mind that that was not only an English question, but that questions of Indian policy would be very frequently dis cussed in that house, and he did net see how a confidential council was to work if, when such questions came to be disctrseed, the minister, acting on his own reeponeibility, contended for the view which he might conscientiously take, and those who were infoitned of all that was being done, end who were at the same time his secret and con scientious advisers, with the advantage of the knowledge which they possessed, took a course directly the oppesite of that minister. (Hear.) It seemed to him that, considering the duties which it was intended for to impose upon the council, a man of delicate feelings, having weighed the responsibilities of both positions, would not desire to act as a member of that house, because either his official position must compel him to con ceal his convictions with regard to questions of Indian policy which might be discussed, or else his faithful per. formanco of Parliamentary duties with regard to matters of Indian policy would make him a very inconvenient col. league of the liliaister. (Rear, hear.) With regard to the salary of the councillori, the noble lord (Lord J. Peuseell) thought that 1,0001. a year would not ho enough, and pro• posed-2,0001. a year. He ( the intention effi ciency ; but irshotild be borne i a mind that every one who that expense ought not to b e L c o o r n d si B d t e a r t e ll c e l y s ) o - cimuluctnehfiliamnsgitettfilhel retireel from th e Inelian service had a retiring pension, to which the salary of such an officer as that under considera tionnwmaso not ontt s would oo f muchr b e e n ut e a or a ap d ta i i t yo i n o addition. the t councillors l e oc 01.thoughta year,f that, or th a am ount of of patronage. lord . Havingenterd e service done se to give a fair comp ensation for the addi tional expense to which they would be put by habit ua l re sidence in London. (Han, he question The a i t i c i n to . tCh th ec e l rw up id o e n a t ild hat d iillult question the other night: he (Lord litanley) would not en er into it at length now. He had never said that open competition was not a means of ob taining efficient officers for the Indian army. Wh a t he had said, and what he now repeated, was this, that look ing at the system as an experiment—and it was an experi ment, which from the first had his fullest sympathies when it was proposed in that house—and looking at the fact ti.at it was an experiment of such recent introduction, he did not think it was so universally good for the military as for the civil service. He did not think it desirable to decide that no person should enter the Indian army with out havingsubmitted to competitive examination. (Hear, hear.) There was a large number of persons in the country in whom ware combined considerable activity and a great desire for honour and distinction, with intellectual facul ties which were not of a very high order • and these were men who, not caring for civil service, mid yet being de sirous of obtaining distinction, were prepared to im peril and sacrifice their lives in the military service. (Hear, hear.) This was a very useful class of persons, and he thought it was not desirable alto gether to exclude them. Now he did not intend to pro pose in detail a plan with regard to the dispos a l o f patron age, but it had occurred to him that it might be dealt with in some such manner as this. The government could have no objection whatever to the trial of that plan of open corn, etition with regard to some portion of the military service which had been already adopted in re ference to the civil service. All he contended for at pre sent was that it should not be the only means of admission. He thought, for instance, that if patronage were divided into a certain number of shares, as at present, the number of admissions over and above those shored at present, arising from the difference between the number of direc tors and the number of the council, might be fairly left for open competition. There was one observation of the noble lord to which he would advert, because it showed the intrinsic difficulties of the question. The noble lord _ . . felt that a purely literary competition was not the right means of obtaining the most efficient officers. He there fore proposed that there should ba competition of another description—of what description he did not say ; but he (Lord Stanley) supposed the noble lord referred partly to physical attainments, which, in the case of the army, were . , equally necessary with int e llectu a l one?. Now, there was the difficulty of dealing with this matter.. So long as they were dealing with the civil service, whera the test was purely literary or intellectual, there was no room for favouritism or partiality on tho part of the examiners, the functions exercised being purely judicial; but by en larging the functions of the examiners they would open the door to suspicion, and the result might be to throw discredit on that which, in its application to the civil service, was liable to no such objection. He had no ob jection to competitive examinations being made one mode of admission into the army, but he thought it would be, to say the least, premature to make it the only door of entrance. Something was said by the noble lord with regard to the duties to be performed by the council in the way of making laws for India. On that sub- ject he thought the noble lord had attributed to the council the functions which would belong to the legislative council of India; and he apprehended that now that a considerable share of povier was being given to the council, it was very important that no colli sion should occur between the two bodies. The noble lord next touched upon the queition of tenure; and on that point he would state what was the opinion of the Govern ment. He thought the question between nomination and election, or between a long term and a short one, was a question relating to different modes of attaining the same end, the importance of which every one felt, namely, that of insuring the known independence of the council. Now, of all the plans which had been proposed-- he said this with all courtesy towards the noble lord the member for Tiver ton—the plan of combining a short tenure of office with the principle of re-election would virtually place the coun cil in a position in which they would be much more subor dinate to the minister than those permanent civil servants in the public offices who were designated by the humble title of clerks. Although, theoretically, any one of those clerks might be dismissed, practically, through the force of public opinion, no dismissal ever took place except for proved incapacity or misconduct, while under the bill of the noble lord the Minister need have no scruple in getting rid of councillors at the end of their term of office. (Hear.) Now there were, as it appeared to him, only two methods of securing the independence of the council. Ono of these means—and this would be put forward in,a subsequent resolution—was to leave it to bo elected partly by a con stituency to be named ; the ether was to leave it to be nominated by the Crown, to hold office either for a long term of years or during good conduct. He thought that either of those means would attain in a sufficient degree the object proposed. He was of opinion that the elective system would attain it the more thoroughly of the two ; but though he should submit that proposition to thejudg went of the house, he could not shut his eyes to the ex treme difficulty of finding any constituency which this country would approve. He did not think that difficulty was absolutely indispensable, but it was a difficulty which was strongly against the adoption of the elective principle, If the elective principle should not obtain the assent of the committee, the next best means of ensuring the independence of the council was,he thought,the adoption of the proposition of the noble lord the member for London, viz., that the members of the council should held their offices during good behaviour. He had now gone through the main points of the noble lord's address, and though he was not certain that his doing so was strictly regular, considering the nature of the question under dis cussion, he hadithought it best that there should he no he sitation or delay iu stating the views of the Government. Mr. V. SMITH complained of the inconvenience of this irregular mode of discussing a number of questions con nected with India, which wore not immediately involved in the question before the committee. He thought that the notion of having committees for business was a cum- brous one, and it was an arrangement that was not re quired. On the contrary, what was needed was a council of advice. It was his opinion that much gain of time would be effected by the coalescing of the two bodies at Cannon-row and Leadenhall-street, rather than by having two boards acting in rivalry with each other. What was wanted, before the house decided upon the numbers of the council, was a clear and explicit statement of the exact duties of the proposed council. He should like to know what was the exact amount of business transacted by the committees of the directors at the India house, for he be lieved it would be found that practically the gr:at bulk of the business was transacted by the chairman of the com mittee, or the secretaries and chief clerks. The hen. mem ber proceeded to refer to the evidence of Sir J. C. Melvill, for the purpose of showing the delays which took place in the receiving and transmission of despatches to and from India connected with the government of the country. The average attendance of directors he believed was, according to the evidence of Sir J. C. Melvill, about six, and be was inclined to the opinion that eight or twelve members at the most would be sufficient to constitute the new council. He was glad to hear the noble lord was inclined•to pause before he opened the military service to competition. Ho agreed with his noble friend the member for the city of London that in that service physical qualifications were of as much importance as intellectual. With regard to the nomination to tut) council, he thought the time of service ought to be fixed, and in order to make the council inde pendent they should be ineligible for reappointment. He hoped the number would be limited to eight, at the out side. Mr. T. BARING—The question as he understood it, was a proposition that the number of the council should be not more than 15 ; and if so, the original words would nearly have met the case, by providing that the council should be not more than 18 nor less than 12. It had been stated that there was a vast quantity of uninteresting matter brought before the existing committees, and thought it would be better to do away with the system. He referred to Sir J. and Mr. J. S. Mill; but how did they obtain their information but from the mass of details which came before them. Though there might be a question whether the amount of details might not bo diminished, yet he should be sorry if any council ceased to obtain that constant sup ply of records of fact as to India, for he believed it was the only way to ascertain the conduct of its administration in India. If at any time they ceased to claim those constant reports they would find the officials in India very read; to refrain from what caused them great trouble ; but if they did not have those reports they could not ascertain how the principles of government were carried into effect. He did not hear from the noble lord the member for London, nor from the noble lord the President of the Board of Con trol, whether the intention was that this council should have frequent periodical and continuous sittings, and he must say that as far as he had been able to form an opin ion ho believed that the beat government, if there was to a chauge, would be to adopt the same system in Eug land as wee adopted in India, that there should beia Pre sident iu Council, that the matter in question should be voted first by a majority, but still leaving the Presi dent in Council the power to overthrow that majority, oven though they were unanimous against biro, and to act on his own opinion, provided he recorded his reasons for so doing. There was no magic in any particular number of the members, and he was not sure that if they had only 12 members that they would be all efficient men. If they transacted their business in committees, and had three committees, they would reduce the number of the mem bers of the committees to a very low amount, such as would ' not allow for the ordinary casualties, such as sickness. The present course, he believed; was for the chairman of the committee to explain the report of the committee to the directors, and then, if any further information was wanted it was asked for. It was, in fact, a regular council. It had been said that in consequence of cumbrous machinery you could limit have an answer to a despatch under nine months, but Sir J. Melvill stated that he know cases where answers had been sent out by the next mail. There was promptitude where it was necessary. He spoke with the greatest diffidence on this subject, but after listening with the greatest deference to what fell from the two noble lords, he confessed that he should very mach regret if there was a constant communication of every proceeding in India to the home government—(hear, hear)—for he believed that that was a great check on the government there. With regard to the question of salary, ha did not think that the difference of a few thousand pounds a year would be any serious obstacle in the way of adopting a Lager number of councillors. any honour, ho thought— in the shape of being male privy councillors, for instance --would, ho thought, be very desirable ; but if it was thought that would attract gentlemen from India to be come councillors more than a seat in Parliament would,lhe very much doubted the correctness of that assumption. The scheme hardly involved the question of givieg an indi vidual a proper compensation for his services, but it was very desirable that they should be placed beyond any temptation, and beyond the pressure of limited moans. (Hear, hear.) He did not feel competent to give an opinion as to members of the council being in Parliament, but it would bo a useful means of obtaining information by questioning those members. The object must be to make an independent no well as an efficient council. As to choice of councillors by election, he doubted whether it would work. He believed that if they were no minated for a period of years or for life, it would be mere likely than any ot h er mope to ensure an independent coun cil. The ra was another question brought before the com mittee, one of very groat difficulty—he alluded to the question of patronage, There were two kinds of patron !go, nomination in England and attertvarCo promotion in India. (hear.) They might he able perhaps to prevent; by open competition any charge of f wow it sm in tee first instance, but they did not exclude by open competition the favour of the minister being Emig!: t for afterwards. There would be applications from friends of the minister, from his sup porters in that house, and from constituents of supporters, asking him, .not perhaps f or p re f erenc e, but to give a fair chance t o a par ti cular yonug man, and if he had meri s to promote him. 'Similar infl uenc e wou ld be us: d with gover eo.a in Iu and hedid no t l. now b o w it was to be guarded against. It m i g h t b e said that the Celia of Ditectoihag s done the same, but nobody had any permanent control over them. Th e y h a d not yet hear d from the . Government 101 l • they had what wore t o b e th e du ti es o f th e cour , : not hear,l whether they were to act as a perma. nor nent council sitting r egu larl y w ith the president in council, whctler h y were to be divided into committees, or to b e merely the heads o f d e p ar t m ents. If they' wished to h ave every province i n some d e gree represented in council, he did not thind 18 would. be too many. „ it The CHAIRMAN might be saidconvenient to put inserted in th e t erms o f the resolution. the question in form : it was, that the word " more" be Lord STANLEY wished to explain. The resolution had been accidentally left in a very incomplete state on a for • mer evening, and it was now proposed to insert the word " more." When that amendment had been agreed to, ho would propose to insert the words "than 15," and the ques tion of number would then be fairly before the committee. The question th it the word "more" should be iuserted was pat and agreed to. Lord STANLEY said he would now propose to insert the words " than 15," and in so doing he would merely say that the really necessary number could only be ascertained by the practical working of the system. Ho would ask power to make the number as large as 15, but if it should appear hereafter that that number was not necessary, he did not with to pledge the committee to the appointment of so many. On the question being put, Lord J. RUSSELL said he would adhere to his number of 12. Mr. C. BRUCE said all their discussions had gone to prove that it was much easier to pull down than to build up a system ; and that the old adage, " More haste less speed" was applicable to their proceedings. He thought that 15 was not a number which could adequately and efficiently discharge the duty which would devolve upon them. India was so vast that a man might reside for years in one part, and yet know nothing of any other part. He certainly thought• that any less number than 18 would not be sufficient for the council. One great use of a council would be to act as a check upon the minister himself in the discharge of his duty. If he was sure that the noble lord would always be President of the Council he should have :every confidence in that quality of his mind which would induce him to reject anything like jobbery or favouritism in the discharge of his duty— (hear, hear)— but the noble lord would not always be at the head of the council. They all remembered the case of that prince of intriguers, Meer Ali Moored, of Scinde, who, though he had deal with persons in India of great ability, was so clever as to deceive them all, including the great general who conquered Scinde, and Lord Ellen borough. When such things had happened they wanted a council sufficiently independent and numerous to check the administration. He regretted frem the bottom of his heart the retirement of Lord Ellenborough, for they could not have a man more competent to deal with Indian matters—(hear, hear)—brit still he had great confidence in his successor, knowing as he did, his great ability. He would entreat the noble lord not to come too hastily to a conclusion as to the number of the - council, considering that there were six great divisions of territory—Bengal, Madras, Bombay, Scinde, the North Western Provinces, and Burmali—and that there were six departments of State—the military, financial, judicial, public works, police, and home administration. They could not divide the council into less than six departments, and to consti tute a perfect council there should be one member well acquainted with each department. In introducing the present bill the present Government could not t.e accused of a desire to grasp to patronage. The elective prin ciple in the council, which, he thought, do much to se cure its -independence. But 18 members, in his opinion, ought to be the minimum of the council. The hon. member complimented the present Government upon the satisfactory exercise of power observable since their acces sion to power, both. with regard to our foreign relations and the faith they had kept with the country on financial matters—(hear)—and stated his readiness to support this measure as an earnest of their general policy. (Hear.) Sir E.,COLEBROOKE considered that the numbers of the new council ought very much to depend on whether the council strictly confined themselves to the duties of their office, and whether they would or would not have seats in Parliament. (Hoar.) He attached the greatest importance to this last point, and declared a decided lean ing towards the view that members of the council should be eligible to sit in the House of Commons. One source of weakness of the existing board of directors lay in their being so much severed from the executive, and the active deliberations of Government. It would not at all follow that members of the council who were at the same ttmo members of Parliament would b 3 partisans. Experience had proved the contrary. (Haar.) Gentlemen represent ing Leadeuhall-street had shown considerable abstinence in obtruding any peculiar views, and had exhibited a gene ral desire to assist the Minister of the day in measures affecting the real interests of India. The house, he thought, ought to exercise goat caution in diminishing thonumbers of the council, and he believed that the hon. member for Northampton would come round to his view. The " ob structivenese" of the present b rani of directors really meant a substantial check upon the Government. By diminishing the number of the council that check would be required. Sir C. WOOD quite agreed with his noble friend the member for London, that the constitution of ' the council was the most important point in the proposition. The question of numbers of the ccuncil could not be discussed without considering what were to be the functions which they would have to discharge. The real question before the house was the alternative between 12 and 15, although the hon. member fur Elgin was in favour of Is. His own •opinion was that the number of 15 ought not to be ex ceeded. (Hear.) H e agree d w ith th e hon. member for Huntingdon that one of the principal functions of the council ought to consist of a review of the treusactions of the 'adieu Government. (Hear.) He agreed that the Indian Government ought to be carried on principally in Inlia, but the new council ought to be enabled to act as a check upon the proceedingsof that Government. 'Undoubt edly the greater part of the details of Indian government were prepared by such men as Sir James Melvin and Mr. John Mill, and such indivi fuels would constitute the best Eng?ish element that could be introduced. (Hear, hear.) But he thought that the council ought to consist princi pally of persons intimately connected with Indian affairs. Believing that the members of the council ought to devote themselves exclusively to the duties of their office, he was opposed to their having the privilege to sit in Parliament. The Government of India would, he thought, be the best judge of the eligibility of individuals to be placed upon the council. If the council were not to pie iu Parliament, it would be a much more easy task to settlethe numbers which sheen compose it. He did not think that the change in the bill of 1853, by which the old number of twenty-four was reduced, had at all impaired the efficiency of the present council. The practical effect of placing the direction in the hands of a large number would be to throw the actual work into the hands of two or three of the more active members, whereas a small council would be more likely to transact the business themselves. He laid little stress upon the argument against the principle of nomination, believing that no Eng lish gentleman would sacrifice his own conscientious opi nions for the mere sake of retaining a seat in the Indian Government. (Hear, hear.) The antecedents of Indian officials was quite opposed to this apprehension. He was of opinion that the appointment of the council should not be for too long a period, because that would prevent the infusion of new blood. With regard to the number, he thought that twelve would be sufficient. Then, again, was the Minister to bo responsible, or was he to have a council for a screen? Ho thought the Minister should be responsible. If:they were to have a responsible Minister, Parliament should give him every assistance in its power. They could never have responsibility without conferring power. When he was President of the Board of Control he always sent to the directors whoni he thought best able to advise, and he must say that on every occasion he received the readiest assistance from that body. (Hear.) Mr. BRIGHT said the resolution before the house re ferred to the question whether the council should consist of 12 or 15. The hon. and learned member for Sheffield held that there should be no council, and he was inclined to agree with him. The noblelord (Palmerston) proposed eight, and he thought that would be a better number than 12, 15, or 18, and he hoped the noble lord would press his view on that question. He thought the Minister would be better off with a small than a large council, as there would be fewer opportunities for party divisions. He was of opinion that 15 privy councillors, with 1,501. a year each, would be too large a drain upon the country, and he believed that such a council would prove a complete failure. FM. himself ho would say that he should vote for the smallest numberof councillors that might be proposed. If the resolutions went on in this slow manner he did not think they would be able to get through them by the time it would be necessary. to pay attention to the grouse in Scotland. (Hear, - hoar.) Lord PALMERSTON said he did not often agree with the hon. member—(laughter)—but on this question he seemed to agree with him more than any one. Ile agreed that the house ia determining the number of the council ought not to be lad to an adherence to the old system, but to get as far from it as possible. He still thought eight was the best number, but as the feeling of the house seemed to be in favour of a larger number, ho would ac cept the number of 12. The house should remember that this was a council of advice ; and if it was to overrule and thwart the minister for India it was not possible for him to be responsible to Parliament. The council should be so far independent as to be able to give the best advice. But it was a mistake to suppose that a subordinate was valuable who gave unsound advice to the head of his department in order to ingratiate himself with him. It was the man who gave advice even against his chief's opinion, for the purpose of assisting him out of difficulty, that was to be valued and appreciated. Sir. B. WILLOUGHBY thought there was no occasion fur the committee to fetter itself in reference to the mem bers Qf the council when a bill had to be introduced. At present they could not know what duties the council would have to perform. Perhaps when they saw the bill they would find that a council of ono would be sufficient, and then the President of the Board of Control would bee groat Mogul. He thought that it would be time enough when the bill was brought in and the functions of the council were assigned, to determine upon the number. (Hear.) At present they had no information as to what the council would have to do, and therefore he was in favour of abid ing by the original proposition of her Majesty's Govern ment. Ile trusted that the house would not fetter itself by a dogmatic adhesion to a given number of councillors. Mr. ELLICE (Coventry) said the proceedings upon this resolution had reminded him of a 'Dutch Auction. (A. laugh.) The noble lord the member for Tiverton had at first proposed that the council should consist of eight mem bers, but now he suggested twelve ; and his noble friend the member for London, who permitted him (Mr. Ellice) to discuss the subject with him, had to his knowledte two or three opinions upon the matter. (Laughter.) The sight hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli) had in iutroduc:ng the- question made the most instructive speech he had heard during the whole of these Indian debates ; but he regretted to find that his bill did not bear out the promise of the a ldress by which it had been heralded. Even the right hon. gentleman had never stated what the council would have to do. In feet upon that point, he (Mr Ellice) could collect nothing. His noble friend said it ought to be a cabinet council the noble lord the member fur Tiverton told them that it would only have to give advice to the mi nister for India now and then, and the noble lord (the Pre sident of the Board of Control) said it would be a council of greater weight. It surely seemed absurd to be settling how many it was to consist of until they had defined it: duties. (Hear, hear.) For his own part he thought its duties would be very onerous. They were told that the government of India must be in India; but there never was such a delusion as that. (Hoar, hear.) If they at tempted to carry out such a notion the abuses must noses sadly be very great. They would immediately have a Lumber of little oligerchies of coenefls who would dispose of the whole pa'ronage in the country arneng,st their friends. (Hear, hea r .) Th e council would Lave to be at oeco a court of retiew and a court cf appeal—it would have to operate as a check upon the government of India, and at the came time bo a body to which both the public servants and the natives of India might look fur the redress of any grievances they might have to complain of. Then it would hove to innlortake large financial operations amounting -to five or six millions a year. In point of fact, the management of India was not a department —it was a goverment itself. (lie.a.) Under these circumstances it would be most foolish to reduce the number of the council too much. Sir James Melvill had, on this point, given most valuable and disinterested evidence. Ho said that the number of tleAdirectere lied been reduced as much as was safe ; and he prised thst no further diminution should be attempted. Considering the many important questions which would have to be dealt with, the nature of the encour agentent to be given in future to miseionariee, the question of education, the reform of the army, and many others, ho di 1 not think they ought to cripple the machinery of administration. (Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped the house WAS prepared at or z.e to vote up m this resolution, and thus to show that they were really in earnest on the subject of carrying the measure. (Hear, hear.) The only question they had then to consider was the number of which the council should consist. His own opinion was that there should be a minimum as well as a maximum named, and if the motion of his noble friend were agreed to he should pro pose to insert the words, ." and not less than 12 ;" if, on the other hand, the noble lord's (Lord J. Russell's) amend ment were carried, he should propose that it ran " not more and nit less than 1?." (Hear, hear.) They had been asked and by no one more frequently than by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Ellice), what the council was to do ; and the right hon. gentleman had, on every occasion, answered his own questim. Speaking generally, the duties of the council would be the same as those which were now performed by the Court of Directors. (Hear.) There was no doubt that though' they would no longer sign the documents, they would often virtually originate measures ; for they would lay the results of their ex perience and research before the minister, and he would no doubt frequently adopt them. It would be a real council, and he hoped it would also be an independent and an influential one. (Hear, hear.) He would advert to one or two pointed questions that had been put. As to the finance of India and its relation to the new minister, it would be the same as it was under the President of the Board of Control. The new minister would exercise no more influence than the President of the Board of Control. The elective principle would be dealt with in a subsequent resolution. There ought to be a calm and dispassionate decision on that question. All sides agreed in desiring to secure the independence of the council; and whether this was to be done by the elective principle it would be for the house to decide after full consideration. Mr. Ellice had asked what government intended to do about the organisa tion of the Indian army? The resolutions had nothing to do with that. It must occupy the deliberation of cabinets, and then no doubt measures would be taken adequate to the occasion. The government meant to issue a com mission to inquire into the whole subject of the re organisation of the army ; a question cf that magnitude could not be left to the home government alone. The question now Lefore the committee had been fully dis cussed, and it was now ripe for a decision. It was im portant that the resolution should fix a minimum ; and if the amendment of the noble lord was carried he should move that 12 be the minimum . number of members of the council. The committee then divided on the question that the word twelve stand part of the questi.m, when the num• hers were— Aes 176 No y es 243 Majority The announcement was receiv3,l with tremendous cheers. The word " 15" was then inserted. The words " more than 18" were struck out. Lord STANLEY then rose to move that the words "not less than twelve" be inserted. Government had not so far pledged themselves to a specific number, but as the feeling of the committee was evi d en tly th a t the minimum should be twelve, they had determined so to limit it. After some conversation, the committee agreed to the addition of the words propos - d, sill the resolution as amended was passed. Lord STANLEY then moved the noxt resolution, that in order to secure the great amount of knowledge and ex' perienee in the management of the affairs of India it is ad visable that the principal portion of the members of the council shall have served in India for a term of years to be limited by statute. It was not, however, the intention of Government that the whole of the council should consist of old Indians, but that there should be a certain admixture of the English element. Mr. GREGSON rose to move the insertion of the word , " or resided" after served,. which he hoped the noble lord would admit. Lord STANLEY had no intention to exclude the civil servants, and should not object to the addition of the words, Mr. 'LIDDELL agreed that there should be a mixture of the English element, but they should have a pledge that the members should be persons who had served in India. He had not that faith in Governments that he would like to see such important offices given up as matter of comps• tition. Tho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that as the next resolution (the (ith) was one of importance , - and as several hon. gentlemen who were entitled to be heard on it were absent, he proposed that they Should not proceed with it now, but take it at the next morning sit' tine on Thursday. Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that he should move an amendment that the council be nominated by bet Majesty. Sir J. SHELLEY said both this resolution and the Lon' don Corporation Bill were fixed for that day, he would AO; which would be proceeded with ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the Indian debate would bo taken. The Chairman then reported progress and obtained lee" to sit again. CHELSEA. BRIDGE ACT AMENDMENT Brur..,, Lord J. MANNERS moved th e secon d rea di ng of to_i" bill. He said thorehad been some dissatisfaction expregmb by the inhabitants of the locally that a toll was put 01, the bridge. A bill w as p ropose d b y the late Governinerr,' that would have a b o li s h e d th e t o ll e ntirely, but that 1)1°' being submitted t o a comm itt ee t h ey declared the pream bie sot proved. He now proposed that the toll should cease on the receipts of the bridge amounting to 37,00,/. The bride bad been open ten weeks, and the receipts averaged_l 3ol ' a week. On the whole, he thought there was a reasonable probability of the d e bt b e i ng p a id. (Th e grea t er p o rtion , of the noble lord's statement was i nau dibl e .) Mr. BLACKBtTRN had not heard a single word of the noble lord's speech, an d th e ma j or it y o f th e comm unice' Lions might as w e ll b e mar k e d p r i va t e an d con fidential. , This appeared to him as a proposal to make the inabitants. of a local distri c t a p resen t o f th e i n t erer t on a sum ci money which had been lent them. That interest would amount to about 4001. a-year. The house had in a foolish moment lent the money to a district, andthey now wanted to break the bargain. (Hoar, hear.) It was proposed last year to excuse them entirely,• but that was rejected by the • committee. The present measure was an attempt to get in the thin end of the wedge. He should move that the bill be read a second time that day six months. Sir B. HALL said the bill which he had introduced W to abolish the foot toll. He would thus have given an mediate relief, and still would have taken the printifs" and interest—that is, if he could get them. (A laugh.) Lord JOHN MANNERS explained that the bill would abolish the foot toll only at •the period when the stun ol 97,000/. due to the Exchequer Loan Commission, and made up of an advance of 80,000/. and interest should have beau repaid. With regard to the 120,0001. made up of the GO" vernment grants for building, &e., there had been no plede of repayment, and he i n t en d e d t o treat those sums as gran t ' not as loans. Mr. A LCOCK object e d a lt oge th er t o gree t s o f P hlio money for local purposes, but the land, if sold by auct would pay off the whole sum. Th a t was assum i ng that the COMmis , ioners of Public Works new their business, but for one had no confidence that they did know their but, l 2, news, or that they k n e w h ow t o di s p ose o f th e l an d to the best advantage. If the land for sale was worth more then the debt, the noble lord had no right to maintains toll 11. the bridge. He defied the noble lord to maintain the, t„,, Mr. P. O'BRIEN considered the real question at gt. was, whether public money was to be advanced for metro' politan local improvements. He should certainly suPP° l ,„ • the amendment of the hon. member opposite (Mr. 81- 1 ° burn). If this bridge must be made free, he could not 1 . 0 derstand why every other metropolitan bridge on Wil l° tolls were levied should not also be made free. bt Sir j. SHELLEY denied that the bill had been brag forward at the instigation of the metropolitan merebert At the same time he was determined to support the proZu e sition to do away with the foot tolls on the bridge; forf o believed that thereby the Government property on Surrey side of the bridge would be so improv e d as to 0( 3 1 ‘ , penaate the public for the loss of 4,000/., th e amou nt n e ° 4 realised by the foot tolls. Let it ba b o r ne i n m i n d th at Battersea-park was constructed for th e use o f th e worlq l3 ,:! classes, and it was an undoubt e d f ac t th a t th e worklat classes were unable to use it on accoucit'of the tolls. 51/ 0 47 bill did not go so f a r as h o d es i re d, st ill h e wou ld sup P° ( it in the hope that w h en th ey go t i n t o comm ittee to" might improve it. Mr. S. HERBERT would vote against the second re' s. log of the bill. H e cou ld no t consen t to the public 0 2 ",,, being allocat e d f or th e crea ti on o f l oca l i m provenuss' (Hear, hear.) Mr. J. LOCKE denied that a work like this could i b t : considered as mer e ly a l oca l i m p rovemen t. It was tuf clear that through the maintenance of the toll the pre b e t on both sides of th e b r id ge was d e t r im e ntal t o va lue ; w o , if the toll were removed, the property would becom e enhanced in value as to repay the Government for the 1 100 incurred by the surrender of the toll. As a s t e p in t he right direction, he should most certainly supper' second reading of the bill. ‘'' Mr. SPOONER moved the adj ournmen t o f th e de e t o o Lord PALMERSTON said hi s on l y complaint sigle-0 the bill was that it postponed indefinitely the periods the working-classes should have access to Battersera - O r t aa It was perfectly competent for Parliament, if it eb°,,i i t think fit, to forego a n y c l a i m w hi c h t h e Exc h eque r oleo have upon the tolls of the bridge. He 'hoped, therh st el house would sy m p a thi se with the working c laeses, ilhe ie • would accept the bill as an instalment of what vrag right. (Hear, hear.) oul ci Mr. JACKSON, a s c h a i rman o f th e comm ittee, 1 / .0 00 suggest that the country should be generous and throw.,id the bridge, on condition that the two coun ti es au 0 * .A 4 should guarantee th e mainten ance o f th e bridge.,„„eue practical man he believed that the c onsequen t ene' - ov id value of the Government land in the neighbourhood 00 of reimburse the State for the outl a y ou t he cons t r uct' the bridge. (Hear, hear.) /O r Mr. AYRTON suggested that th e bill s h ou ld be ta ie drawn until the report of the Metropolitan Toll Co ca . sioners should be presented. - 00" The CHANCELLOR o f th e EXCHEQUER '„ thall mended the house to agree t o; tic moti n to adieur debate. OA* The house divided on the motion for Lie adjourn°- • Ayes .. Noes —SS b• Majority • Ol o eo "to The CHANCELLOR of th e EXCHEQUER - g oe • served that for the f u t u r e it wou ld b e we ll if they c onl° an agreement that all opposed orders of the day th b oril.) on after 12 o'clock s h ou ld b e postpone d . (L o ud c The house adjourned at a quarter past one. ~ BIRTHS. twt' BURY— On the Ist inst. a , at her residence, i n Sloane' s- Viscountess Bury, of son.tb CLOWES—On the 10th inst., at 4, Halewood - s c l il° "' wife of William Clo ves , E s q., of a daughter. tor LAMB —On the 10th inst., at 3, Hinde-street, Ida square, the wife of E. B. Lamb, Esq., of a detug" — the TURNER—On the 9th inst , at Lee-road, 131ackbetr; wife of Frederick J. Turner, Esq., barrister -at -us" a daughter. • MARRIAGES. ljot' FRANCIS—SCOT—On the 10th inst., at St. John'gPog., tiag-hill, Thomas Watson, son of W. S. Francis,,,zoot, Wof elidos.) square, London, and EAstWickhon,A; l. , of to Fanny Geor,giana, daughter of R. A. Scott, Pa Bayswater. DEATHS. / Bilovi 7 N---On the 10th inst., at his residence, tea street, Soho-square, Robert Brown, Esq., P.C..' gell 55. Yew BRICSTOCKE-0a the 7th inst., at Burton Recto r y' Job s brokeshire, - Mary Catherine, relict of the B c ' „iia Brigetocke, and daughter of the late Sir Wian3 Lady Sarah Champion de Crespigny. DunANT.--On the 9th inst., at Poole, Dorset , J. Esq., aged 78. (3 LONDON Printed and Published by DIIIIO3O YOU1:10. of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun 01110 0, tt , 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, i n the coti'l of giddiesex, Saturday, Juue 12, 1558. IW R 4 co rations 3E, Rill li take pl 4 21st o ma Ticket, ' l quare, And C"IS1 Attrl Nualled ext from ten till • T. j at Thr ee iliST an j' n ortPtive " %les un T A'NU TIIR N EN' -.rep s. _ m . I,lraisslon a introd uced n.nraerous r a nienciug kk, Wl* 3, TIC "CTURE s qUarter pai Open D s• tirm 4 4 . 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