The Sun. — London, England, 1829-04-04 00:00:00

was espable of forming. i don't entertain a notion that (Hear, hear.)—T agreee, my Lords, with putting down the Church is one separate body and the State another, and the Catholic Association ; but that could not have been that the Church, is to rest sep ara t e f rom th e State, and the done but by following it up with this other great measure State from the Church. I look upon the Church and State o f relief. No one who has not witnessed the state of Ireland as one. My Lords, I have li ve d w ith L or d Kenyon, of can entertain the least idea of the odious and vexatious whom I never speak without stating the gratitude I feel ; exclusions under which the Roman Catholics have so long I had also the happiness to hear the opinion of the late' and so u njustly l a boured. I can assure Noble Lords, from Lord Ellenborough delivered in this place upon the sub- my own experience, that they have proved the greatest jeet. One of that Noble Lord's sons has now given his curse to that country. They have raised father against son, opinion. My opinion is, that such is the connection be- and family against family ; they have produced discord tween the Church and State, that it is of very es - and confusion in every transaction of life; they have sential necessity that the committal of offices poisoned e v e ry enjoyment, made every one discontented, and of State should be as much as possible given to individuals created a jealousy that has shook the safety of the kingdom. who belong to the other part of the Union, and that it be- My Lords, it is said that the petitions against the measure longs to the most enlightened and liberal part of the corn- are sent from those who are afraid of the safety of the Pro munity to fill it. We have the authority of great names; testant establishment. A great many of those petitions what right have they to say th a t Mr. Pitt st a t e d upon have been presented from districts which as widely differ his legs in the House of Commons, that he wold oppose from the established religion of the country as the Roman emancipation most manfully? What right bad they to Catholics. My Lords, the great mischief of the existing throw that at me as an argume nt w hy emancipation laws are, that they give an artificial superiority to those ebould be granted now ? Persons doing so entertained professing the Protestant religion. This was what had notions of religiousliberty on principles I cannot understand. caused the great mischief. My Lords, nothing is more My Lords, there is another reason I must attend to, and common in Ireland than to hear a Protestant Brunswicker that is the great danger of breaking in upon the established sa y, 4 , What ! have a Roman Catholic for a Judge ? Can system. Destroy the Constitution of 1688, and you then Ibe safe if such an one administers the laws of the country? will have to take care that you don't annihilat e the I never can submit to such a state of things," and yet my whole system of Legislation. My Lords, thi s Bill provides Lords, you tell the Catholics that they must submit to ;or the advice to be given to the Crown: and if the Ali- have exclusively Protestant Judges. You tell them that ulster at the head of Government who introduces the mea- it is for their good that they should do so. But is it sure thinks he can bring Catholics to support the Protestant Constitution, he may be a Minister that will succeed, but I am net one who can agree in the expectation that he will and I think it not unfair to suppose the Lord Chancellor, who supports the measure, may be in the part he takes, supposed to be a little under the influence of that Prime Minister.—(Hear.)—My Lords, you have heard a great deal about the enactments relative to the Ca tholics—you have heard of the laws made in the reign of Elizabeth—nay, you may carry it back to a century before ; your Lordships hare heard of Magna Charta ; but I say that Magna Charta was a recognition only of those liber ties established long anterior to the time at whieh Magna tienrta was signed ; and it should be remembered that statute is neither more nor less than what was enacted at the Revolution on behalf of the Crown. If your Lot d ships will look at Lord Hale's Pleas of the Crown, you will find that he speaks of the old oath, and I think no man will deny that the Oath of Allegiance is taken by the Protestants alone, including the Oath of Supremacy. My Lords, Hale says, that the Pope, wishing to construe the Oath in his-own way, had made such encroachments on the powers of his Majesty in this kingdom, it became necessary, to use his own expression, unricet those errors, and to let them know that they must take an additional oath of supremacy. In speaking of the Act of Mary, he states that those Acts were neither more nor less than revolutionary Acts. Well, then, my Lords, such being the nature of things, I find it not easy to recon cile insc.mincl readily to accede to the proposition of admit ting persons into power, under an Act in which there is an r epress clause, deelaring that they do not admit the supre macy of his Majesty. My Lords, we are told that this tneaaure is in truth e new bulwark in defence of the established Protestant Constitution, and in Ruppert of that fabric which I suppose in a measure rests upon the Act of Parliament which was passed in the course of last year. All Inn say, is, that if I thought so, would be the first man who should vote for this measure. But the first question is, whether the persons whose wishes it is intended to meet will be inclined to support the established Church? (Hear, hear, hear,) Have they not by the abominable proceedings of the Association defied the civil powers, and represented the Established Church as the most offensive nuisance that ever existed. They don't scruple to tell your Lordships that, if some Noble Lords will read the Ist statute of Henry VIII. they will learn what supremacy is, and what is the supremacy of the Pope in the ecclesiastical e stablintenents. I don't go back to ancient times—for there is really no abange now in the doctrines of the Church of Rome from what there wee in ancient times. Those doctrines Ido not enter into but I think they will in a great degree destroy the purity as d morality of the doctrines of the Protestant Church. Let those doctrines be what they may, it shall never be said that I have been the man who would sacrifice the su premacy of the Crown to them. My Lords, I certainly have no hesitation in telling you that 1 deferred speaking endioutly, for I was teld I should not speak before Lord Grey, because, after 1 beard what be said, I should learn all that was to be said on the measure:now proposed. It was therefore I deferred speaking at an earlier perid of the day and with these observatiars I leave it by saying, .it is much better to risk the Constitution as it now stands, than to risk it on the remotest ground of security which this measure proposes. But the Lord Chancellor stated yesterday, that if we knew all, we shauld not temple to Assent to the Eill. My Lords, I have always stated that I was an ene my to a Bill of this nature going into a Conaw,,itfre, for I did not t::ink that Parliament knew the course of hear ing such a me:aure concluded through a Committee. My Lords, I have ;,f‘l'd it said by Noble Lords more than once there is no cie.:rter to be apprehended, you are perfectly safe, if you have onty a protestant King. Now that it is to take place rhich is state: here, you may readily conceive that when these persons are admitted into office they will not consent to point the finger of disaffection to the Throne on which the King sits rather than to the established law of the land.—(Hear.) —One mote word, pnd I have done. I have always said that the pelf,. Coro! ;eresenteil were such as were entitled to the serious attention o: the House, if they were got up in a manner that was not diseespectful. With respect to Mr. Pitt, whatever circumstances existed at the time the Union with Ireland took place. I know he has repeated again and again in the hearing of the individual who now addresses your Lordships that he would give his consent to no change un less he had :efficient securities. As far as I am able to collect the securities now proposed, they are not satis factory. —(Hear. ) reasonable to suppose that they should always quietly submit to such a degradation.—(Hear, hear.) — I have heard several Noble Lords say, that they are inti mately acquainted with many Catholics who they think are very pod and very amiable men, but yet they are con vinced that there would be no safety in granting them their civil rights. What a paradox!—(Hear, hear.) — All those who think with me that concessions ought no longer to be withheld, are charged directly with being either apostates or favourers of idolatry, and that we have no regard to the Protestant Constitution, but that we are raising up enemies. It is no such thing. It re quires no act to influence parties to unite together) their common grievance is sufficient. It had been stated by a Noble and Learned Lord that the people cared nothing about emancipation, but I can assure him that they do care. They feel that an indignity is offered to some of their body, and if offered to one it affected the whole. The present system of exclusion is certainly an insult to the feelings of a loyal and a brave people, and the wrongs that they have so long suffered had made them too power ful for this country any longer to resist their just claims.— (Hear, hear.)—Are we, my Lords, to he frightened at a monster of our own creation ? Intolerance is that mon ster, and let us by passing this measure, annihilate it. Many persons trust to time and lenient measures for the removal of complaints. For the evils of Ireland time can bring no cure. Complaints must go on from day to day, until every unnatural distinction is removed. Until that removal every unjust distinction will be the root of danger. (Hear.) —The vices of our system have led to these evils. remedies may be proposed, and if by those remedies you make Ireland three times as powerful as she is, still she she will be three times more dangerous, unless you change your position. You are now founding your Go mernment neither on the basis of power or public expediency. Your principles are abandoned by e very civilized nation in the world. I declare I cannot understand the Noble and Learned Lord, when he says that the common law provides a remedy for these well known evils. Whilst the temples of the people of Ireland are burning, and the human frame wasting in the hectic of discontent and disappointment, it is futile to talk of ap plying the common law of the land as a remedy. The Government have adapted the only line of policy which alone can subdue all the folly and vice in the present system of Government. The Noble Duke has wisely said, there is no danger of a sudden explosion. The people did not wish to fight it out with the Government but there was inuch to be aprehended from the present state of that unfortunate country. Whether Government t,ave complied with the wishes of the Catholics I can not say, but I will say they have followed the recommenda tion of the speech frem the throne in doing the best that circumstances will allow for Ireland. Let me ask the Right Rev. Bench, who entertain sentiments different from me an the question, what are the dangers they appre hend.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—They assume that the wish of the Roman Catholics is to gain the Protestant ascendancy. They say hostility must exist towards the Eatablished aoreh, but let us see what are the grounds of this danger. It appears that the highest character is given of the Roman Catholics. (Hear, hear.)—The Right Rev. Prelate says they are not idolatrous, yet they say, you are a worthy respectable man, but I cannot be lieve yea on your oath.—( A laugh.)--Can you say that the Roman Catholics have done any thing against the Protestant Church ?—I admit at public meet ings, there have beau violent any) , apeeetes made by angry Priests and angry Demagogues; but that wae not ground to charge the whole Catholic Body with icapeo;er feelings. I lo not think it wise to lecture on this sub yet, the Rey ? Bench say the Catholics entertain hostile feelings to the protatq.nt establishment. Why is it so? There must be an establishment ; religion cannot r without it. Jf the Roman Catholic laity admit, as they do admit, that there must be a religious esta blishment, they will not decide against it.—(Hear.) — It is impossible to ovei wrn the Protestant establishment without subverting the State itself: If yon give Catholics their rights, they will respect the Protesteeytssteblishment. It is an ahuae of good sense to talk of hostility against the Protestant EetalAahment ; I believe from my heart that the Roman Catholic Priests and Laiety of Ireland, have no intention to make an ,ittaelg on the Protestant FA tabliehment —(Hear, hear.)—Do they forget, in the first piece that the corner-stone of the Constitotion. That the Constitution is essentially Protestant. That the King is hound by his Coronation Oath to exclude Rumen Cetholies from the State, I will admit but I will weintain, with all that not the Constitution is unalterably Pro4easant. As to the ad- Cathoties to this House there can Le no danger mission on of a Popish representative. If they look to the other tiouix tiNy suppose the Catholics would send Members to Par •t'e purpose of overturning• the Constitution.— ' "us con piracy be carried Oil in the I say no! and if such an at - —rdy enough, and -- ,, pot off N. from the time at which ' , lwo state that the Lord PLUNKETT—My L0n.... I heard the Noble Lord who has just sates_ Pro teota n t measure proposed was calculated to subvert the _ Constitution, I have thought it would be my duty to my opinion on the subject. After the argument of the can.,_ Noble Lord on the Wooleack and my Noble Friend (Lord liament for s- Grey) I had, I confess, great anxiety to know what the ar- Could such a scannas *intent would be that the Noble and Learn e d Lord who face of the people of England t has just sat down would use in opposition to it, and I must tempt were made those who were say those expectations have been very much and agreeably wicked enough to try the experiment would be ilisappinteil, for he has left the whole on his own au- t h e f ace o f t h e e arth. But then it is said there is a pro th.'rity, uns;2staintd e ith er by statute or historic a l evidence. b a bility of such an attempt. My Lords, I deny it. Such My Lords, it will be expected I should go into some par- a scheme would fail, and it will not be attempted. ticulars respecting the necessity of th e p re s en t measure. I The danger that I contemplate from a continuation of that look upon it as one of expediency, but it has been said by *stem of exclusion is, that the English nation must neces- Noble Lords that expediency was not sufficient to justify i sarily rest upon a disproportional minotity fur support. the House in passing a measure of this nature. H ow will y o u remedy this? How will you give effect to A Right Rev. Prelate had asked, has any ground of justice the engines of Government. You cannot make the Ca been visthsted ? I will say,, yes. Has it not been a vio- tholics Protestants, and there is the great difficulty with Winn to refuse an act of justice, by preventing million, 0 . 1 w hi c h y o u have to contend. This measure gives security to onr fei!ow-subjects from enjoying those rights to which the Protestant Church which you can obtain no other way. they are entitled. My Lords, are not most Acts It is impossible that the Catholics can ever cease to seek of Parliament passed on the ground of expediency ? the attainment of those rights, so long as an exclusive este ie expediency alone on which statesman mu-t take their blishment exists. Indeed, we are offered one alternative : stand. It never could he contended - that this Constitution one which I trust will never be adopted. I support this was one of exclusion. If it were such, I, for one, will measure, because I see in it those prospective benefits take my share of blame in assisting to pass a law conferring which I can look for through no other medium : because on our Roman Catholic Brethren their civil rights.— it will have the effect of affording protection to the Pro- Me Lord., the Roman Catholics are entitled to seats in testants of that country—because it will give them a full both mi ll :es of Parliament according to the basis of this and certain assurance of safety, and also encourage tho flow C aoa tin i c on _it never was intended permanently to ex- of property into that country. I regretted last night to edude t h etn ._(ll ear , hear.)—lt is a great mistake, my hear the Right Rev. Peelate at the bead of the Protestant Lords, to suppos e th a t all th e grievances under which Church in Ireland expressed his dlosent from ih.is measure. l'rehand labours have bean upon the system of But r was gratied at ell events to hear that dissent given miegoveFnment. For the last fifty years Ireland has been in such quali&A terms, and lam convinced that nothing encrepiag in wealth and prosperity. She has raised her can ten so much to soften the exasperation that will befall self to a situation in the scale of nations, but how lament- i the Protestants in Ireland, as the exercise of his power and able the fact, with this increased prosperity, she is at the influent..e of his example. We have been told that the this moment in unexempled political danger, she is Roman Catholic eeligion remains unchanged, that in doe "bordering en a state of civil war, and nothing but the trine, in tenets, and in prince, it is ,virtually the measure proposed by the Noble Duke ran afford a remedy. same. deny this assertio.a.,"(Fl,ew, bear, hear.) . The Catholics of this day are no more like the Catholics of the time of Philip and Mary than light is like darkness. My Lords, at this late hour I am unwilling to detain your Lordships by going more largely than I have done into the coasideralion of the various topics which the subject em braces. It was my intention to have endeavoured to have explained the obligatory principle of the Coronation Oath, about which so much has been said, but perhaps it is now unnecessary, as the arguments on that point appear to me to be given up in the course of the debate. I am, however, reminded by my Hon. Friend on my right that the Non, and Learned Lord wh o spoke last asked where in your security ? I think, my Lords, it is impos sible to speak of any better security than that given by this Bill. It has been said that if this becomes a law we may have Popish Ministers, a Popish King and a Popish Par liament, but is this a probabilty, or an improbability ! Ifthe Roman Catholics possessed this power, no Act of Parlia meni can control Them. I am unwilling to speak in allusion to anything that has fallen from the opponents to this measure, particularly when I consider the softened tone which the debate has assumed. In the course of that debate your Lordships have heard none of the denuncia tions which rung in this House during the previous part of the Session. The Noble and Learned Lord had, in deed, taken care to vindicate the Protestant faith, and he gave your Lordships his solemn assurance that he would die in that faith. I trust it will be long ere hegives such proof of his attachment to his religion. The Noble and Learnen Lord alluded to the Oath of Supremacy, and conterded, that unless that oath was abrogated, Roman Catholics could not be admitted into civil power. Ido not conceive that oath was framed for eny such purpose, or with any such view, its only object at that time, and that was a time of suspicion, was to ascertain who were loyal subjects and who were not. I believe Hume stated facts in which the Noble and Learned Lord would go along with me, because they are founded on their own statute books, on the evidence of history, and on the authority of Queen Elizabeth's Minister. At that time, be it remem bered Roman Catholics took part in the affairs of the state, and assisted in making the laws, and it was not till the conferacy of foreign states against the English Govern ment, the Catholics were debarred from interference in the concerns of government. I will admit that at the time of Charles the Second the Catholics were held so unworthy of trust, that they became suspected, but why ? on account of their attachment to the King. By the laws which were made against recusiney, Catholic recusants were not allowed to come within ten miles of London and Westminster. By this means they were dis abled from sitting in Parliament, and new writs were issued for the places represented. This proved that by the law as it stood, down to the time of Cherie IL, there was nothing to prevent Roman Cctholics from sitting in Parliament. There was in the 30th of Charles 11. a clause against Popish recusanis, which had effect of excluding them.—(Herr, hear.)—There were two enactments which applied to them, the one declaring that they could not sit in Parliament, unless they signed the declaration, and the other, that unless they signed the declarations, they could not be admitted to the presence of the King, and submit to being banished to a distance of ten :miles from the metropolis. What became of those laws ? All the law against Popish recusancy were struk off. All the laws banishing them from the presence of the King were struck off, so that nothing remained but the mutilated bust of 0. Titus Oates.—(Loud cheers and laughter.)— Now, My Lord.', so much for the law of Titus—A laugh)—for such I must call it. But at that time good reason for the enactment of that law, for the Catholics were then dangerous to the State. What is the meaning of the Noble Lords, who state that these principles of ex clueion were consecrated at the revolution? What had the revolution to de with that exclusive system ? Is it in corporated in the Bill of Rights ? Does that Bill contain any trumperies alsout transubstantiation, and the worship of the Saints? No ! they enacted those things which were stated by my Noble Friend, and did not trouble themselves with such trumperies as those. They enacted and declar ed the liberties of the people, so far as those liberties had been invaded by the Crown, and no further. --(Great cheering.)—They were no system.inongere, they were no grinders of theories —( Hear.)—They were sober, practical Statesmen, and they set themselves to inquiry into the grievances of the people in order to redress them.—( Hear, hear.)—There were thirteen particulars in which she Crown had violated the rights of the people, and they ac cordingly declared them to be violations, and they con fined themselves to those. There was no stronger proof than their declaration with regard to the right of the sub ject to petition the Throne, a right which had been in vaded in the case of the seven Bishops.—(Hear, hear.)— They inserted in the Bill of Rights that the people had a right to petition the Throne, and this proved that they confined themselves to the existing grievances of that time. I beg of your Lordships to observe the manner in which they carried into execution the law relating to the acces sion to the Throne. In the preample they say that " when ever it has been found by experience that in the Protestant kingdom the Crown ought also to be Protestant," and the Act then goes on to say that the King must he of the Pro testaut religion, and if he marries a Catholic he forgets his right to the Throne. My Lords, this is a Protestant Kingdon, but does that imply that it is exclusively Pro testant? Have we not a Prote . stant Government and a Protestant parliament ? It, in fact, is, and must be so till the end of time, for there will be such a preponderance of Protestants in it, that at no time can it cease to be a Pro testant Parliament. Another word, my Lords, before I leave this subject. It is said that those acts which are cotemporary with the the Bill of Rights, partake of the same nature with the Bill itselfr There was one Act passed in the first year of King Willistm, and'fliii I take to Le most important. fiy thet Act, Papists were forbid to eary arms, such a measure heir; considered necessary fur she safety and security of the Protestants. In the Bill of Rights woes is a claose for the Protestants to carry arms, but there was no elause for the Roman Catholics to do so. This was the only passage ip the Bill of right from which it could be inferted that the Catholics were not to be admitted to equal privileges with the Pro testants. But this Act was repealed by that of 1781, and 'that Act sepealed the laW which prevented Catholics from access to the throne. Though much More danger Might be apprehended from such wee; torn could accrue from stating their opinions in this House, -where they ssetOd be retired to by Nqds Lords who were opposed to them. (Hear)—eAstotlter Act 44(1 009 beef repealed which was person t o „_ - Ito by the 14°11/G By the Oct of refine.. office tees obliges! -.e Attended. t t o he sub Se sc c r o ib n e d But it was su ffi cient to do so alter t heir enterin g u p on th a enYdeclaratto , 2 to which I n e , w - office by the Act of William, host'ever, it appored th at this security was not allowed sufficient, and'lt was ass cordingly enacted that this should sign the declaration prior to entering on office. By the Act of 1781, the Act of William was repealed, and the law was restored to the same position in which it stood under the Act of Charles 11. This, my Lords I have proved that the Noble a nd learned Lord himself, has taken great liberties with the great foundations of British Freedam, (Hear, hear.) than has been taken by his Majesty's ministers, ip intro ducing the present Bill.—(Cheers.)—Under the aetof ?-4e Noble Lord the provisions of the Hct of William were done away with, and insecurity was given in return. One word more, my Lords, before I have done, with respect to the intentions of the framers of the Bill of Kights. I will trouble your Lordships with a abort extract now the proceedings of this House for the purpose of showing the opinions of the framers of the Bill of Rights when in 1706 they were frnning the Scotch Union. My occasion it was moved in this House wise say, that we all felt when eve adapted this measure , m l. 7. d self,a l l i ii p l o h n er ;: e ; ; : o : fore vote against , - .",;!elf. I must like that we were sacrificing ourselves and our popularity, :se that which we felt to be our duty to our Severeign and our country. We knew perfectls that 1 ' that it be en instruction to this Committee to have a clause inserted in the Act of Union, to make perpetual the Act of the 25 th Charles 2d, against Popish recusants." By this House my Lords, that motion was determined in the negative.— (Loud cheers.)—l now my Lords come to the Scotch Act of Union. In that Act a clause we sinserd inserted for the purpose of securing theEstablishmet. It was framed the same as the other, and it was enacted that none could be returned to Parliament but Protestants. But in other clauses it states, that these shall be in force only until the Parliament of Great Britain shoald otherwise provide. So that the very Act of Union itself proved that the perpetuity of those Acts was not contemplated. My Lords, I am sorry for having taken up so much of your Lordships' time, but I now come to the only remaining ar gument. It has been asked by some if the measure is calculated to give tranquillity to Ireland? I only say this. A Noble Earl had selected grounds, which I believe to be substantial why it should produce tranquillity. But the vounds I take are not so high. I ask, ought it to pro duce tranquillity in Ireland ? If your Lordships can sa tisfy yourselves that you hive done justice to Ireland, why should yon presume or imagine thee they will not be'satisfied. If the ROman Catholics of Ireland are satisfied with this measure, which I believe the great body of them will he; and if you have no longer the Protestants of Ireland divided against each other, you will have but a few factious individuals to contend with. You will not have the whole body of the nation in all but a state of insurrection against you. —(Loud cheers.)—l go far with the Noble Lord who said that there still are individuals who will attempt to excite dis affection ; but I believe that the great body of the Catho lics will be tranquillized and gratified by this measure.— Cheering sound in times of excitement; the Protestants as well as Catholics have violated the law, though I freely admit, and I know it from a long knowledge of them, that there is not in civilized Europe a more industrious honest, or respectable class than the Protestants, and I am satisfied that they also will be thankful when they are relieved from a nominal superiority in which there is no advantage.—(Cheers.)—My Lords, should this be the case, I believe, and I may say that I know, that the Noble Lord himself will be most happy that this measure which he now opposes has been carried into effect. The Noble Lord then sat down a midst loud cheers from all parts of the House. Lord Farnham, and several other Noble Peer a, rose amidst loud cries of " Question, question." Lord FARNHAM with great difficulty, at last ob tained a hearing, and said —I can assure your Lordships, 1 should no; have occupied your time at this late hour, had it been possible for me to have obtained a hearing at an earlier moment. Ido think this, my Lords, a ques tion so important that every individual at all inle• rested in the state of Ireland ought not to give his vote upon the subject without stating the grounds on which he gave it.—(Hear, hear.)—l will therefore, my Lords, proceed at once to the state of Ireland. The Noble Duke rested the notion solely on that ground, and upon that ground I shall consider it. The great danger of this mea sure is danger to the Church of Ireland. It has been taken up by the Noble Duke and others, for give me leave to say there is no such church as that of Ire land. The only church recognized is the church of Great Brritain, and ohat is the majority of the people.— Therefore ii is a mistake made by the Noble Duke and others who followed it. Though therefore be the churcq Ireland be severed from the Church of England, following the expression that has been made use of. I cannot thick, my Lords, there is any prospect of a Union. I think the great gallantry of the Noble and Learned Lord's argumeni on this question (Lord Eldon) is taking Roman Catholics to be what they really are not. I believe, my Lords, the Catholics are sincere sincere Catholics; the do not profess what thay not be lieve. I should be very sorry to apply the term idolaters to the Catholics, which the Right Rev. Prelate (the Re gins Professor of Oxford thinks they ought not be called. lut is not I would ask, the worship of a creature, in which they say the body, soul, and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ is embodied, idolatry ? if not, what is it ? Then do they believe this ? If not do the abjure it ? If the abjure it they are not Catholics. I shall be sorry now to enter into a long discussion, but I trust another opportu nity will occur. The House will resolve itself into a Committee in all probability, but I hope the Honse will adjourn. (Here the cries of Question became tremendous.) The Duke of WELLINGTON and the Earl of WINCUIL-• SEA rose together, but the cries for the Duke were deaf- ening. The Duke of WELLIFGTON—My Lords, it is now necessary that I should make some observations in expla nation. And the first thing to be noticed is that which fell from a Right Reverend Prelate respeeting the Catho lic Assoclation.—(Hear, hear.)—lt will be recollected that I stated last year that it was extremely desirable that something should be done for Ireland. But although I endeavoured to find the means of controlling that Asso ciation, I do say, that being satisfied it was for the general interests of this country to bring forward this measure, it would not have been my duty to retire from bringing it forward notwithstanding : the conduct of those persons was not what I could approve.— I beg further to remind your Lordships that it was my duty to propose to Parliament a measure to pur down the Association; and which has so far suc ceeded that there is now, and has been for some time, the most perfect tranquillity in Ireland. The next point for consideration is the assertion made to the Church of Eng land in Ireland The matter on which I expressed myself two clays ago. I call, my Lords, upon those who apprehend danger to state clearly whether it is a danger re sulting from legislation or from violence. If from legis lation, that the apprehension is puerile. Impossible to sup pose the small number of jurors who can by possibility be admitted into the Houses, of the Catholic religion, consi daring that we have a Protestant Sovereign on the Throne, it impossible, I say, that there ran be may damp from the Legislation to the Church of England, and Ireland. But, my Lords, I beg to observe that the Union of Irelalul with England is the Union of the two Churches. They are called the United Churches of England aud Ireland, and it is impossible that danger can result to the Church of Ireland without a brech of the Union. There is another point which I beg your Lordship to Over t t0.,-(Hear.) Although it is provided to admit Catholics into li d ,ir4nt : yet admitting them, we have by an other measure to be brought forward, propose mesas which mnat pot down the iulluence of the Catholic priesta in elections in Jreland. Then, my Lor(1:4, another charge is the uric agaißst say Collgaguee and myself made by a Noble Earl (Eldon) on the pross : benphge t of vitv,4 of consiltency. .alinit that many of my Colleagues as well did heretofo vote against measures of a simi tion with this. I must like:7:7' "Y that we s s.a: l la. l .sr ce rnd r y :a s : e4; n if l i . : felt, when we allopte4 phis measure, that we were sacri ficing ourselves aril our popularity to 4-4.‘iellich we felt ou r duty to our Sovereign and country. Wesknew per)ecti well, that if we had chosen to put Ourselves 'at' 01e head of the cry of Protestantism, we should have been moat more populous than even those who have excited the cry of Popery against us; but we should have left on the country burtlieu which would have born it down altogether, and we should have deserved the execration of the Country for it. (Hear.) Lords, the Noble Earl has particu larl y a dverted to me, and he has spot en tor:n.7, Of compli ment on my services on fOimer occasions, which tell that Noble Earl I have performed those securities itarouo bad repute and good repute, and that I never was to he prevented diacharzing my duty to the country, not. withstanding the cry agairait was doing if s I was those arg-9ted by my Noble and Learld yrfe,n4 .of ae cresy In this transaetlog 094* J beg to state to my r 4 l Friend, that f aerry,..4l)4i J em very sorry, that any thing that has passed either on m y put, 9. the part of any body else, would have been painful towards him ; sot, I must say, that my Noble and Learned Friend has done ,that in the cow - 4 of that discus- sien which he has complained of as having - been done which he has complained of as having been done by an Honourable Friend of mine—that is to say, he has thrown a very large and heavy stone instead of a pebble. My Lords, I ask my Noble Friend, and he knew the mode in which the Cabinet was constituted on this question.—l ask him, had I a right to say one word upon the subject to any man whatever till the person in the country most interested gave his consent to my proposal.—(Cheers.)— Well then, my Lords, before my Noble Friend accused me of secrecy—improper secrecy on this subject, I think he ought to have known the day on which I received the consent of a most Exalted Personage.—(Hear, hear.) — Now, my Lords, there is another point upon which a Noble Friend has likewise accused me of a want of proper My Lords, I could not allow the House to go to a vote upon this question without explaining these points. I don't wish to sap any thing offensive to any one, J only desire to be properly understood, and with that I have done. (Loud cries of question, question,) Lord ELDON rose, iu the midst of these cries, to ex plain. What he had said was, that the country had been taken by surprise. Lord FALMOUTH rose amidst cries of Question ; Question ! I wish to know whether this question is to be decided, as far as it goes, to a division conduct—namely, in not dissolving Parliament. Now, I must say, I think Noble Lords are much mistaken in the notions of the benefits they would derive in the considera tion of this question for the dissolution of Parliament.— (Hear, hear, hear.) I believe they are not quite aware of the consequences of a dissolution of Parliament.— upon the second reading of this Bill, without allowing me to clear myself from the accusation of having excited a cry against the Noble.—(Cries of " No, no," and " Question.")—l say, if the Noble Duke means to state at any time has been. But when I knew what the state of the Elective Franchise in Ireland was, when I know the number of men it took to watch one election in the course of last summer in Ireland—when I know what would be the consequence, even upon the returns to the other House of Parliament, of a dissolution—besides the risk to be incurred at each of those elections—feeling that each election might lead to a civil war, I say I should not have done my duty had I advised his Blajesty to have dissolved his Parliament.—(Loud cheers.) Earl GREY—The Noble Lord having already addressed the House in a speech of considerable length, has no right to be heard again on this subject except in the way of ex planation. If he supposes any part of his speech has been misunderstood, he has a right to re•state that part of his speech, and explain those words; but in allusion to what passed elsewhere, he has no right whatever to be beard.— Lord FALMOUTH again rose, amidst deafening cries of "Order, order," "Question, question," and again sat down. • Lord HODLAND said, I knew not what the rule of the other House is—l never sat in it; but I know the rule of this House is, that if the words of any Noble Lord has been misunderstood, he has a right to stand up and explain what those rules were, and the House is bound most certainly to hear him. The Noble Lord risas to explain, not the words used by him, they did not fall from him ; he is therefore out of order. He is right in what he states, implying a censure on a Noble Member of this House, which at any time would be against the orders of the House, but much more particularly so when that is done under the hope of an explanation. The LORD CHANCELLOR then said, my Lords the regular question is, that this Bill be now read a second time, since which an amendment has been moved to leave out the word now for tho purpose of inserting these words—" this day six months." The question that I am therefore to put to your Lordships is this, that the word now stand part of the motion, and as many of you as are of that opinion say Content. (cries of Content.) Those of the contrary opinion that I have exeited a cry against him.—(Loud cries o " Question, question," among which the Noble Lord sat down.) Lord FALMOUTH, still amidst loud cries of " Ques tion, question," said, my Lords, I declare nothing ever fell from me calculated to create a cry against the Noble Duke, all I have ever said was stated with a directly con trary intention, rnd I repel with indignation ever having said any thing in this House or elsewhere calculated to excite a cry against that Noble Duke was of question, question, from all quarters of the House. Bay "Not Content,"—Cries if " Not Content." The LORD CHANCELLOR then ordered the Bar to be cleared, which was accordingly done at precisely half past Ten o'Clock. At a quarter past Eleven o'clock, the Clerk of . the House declared the state of the Votes to be— For the Original Motion ...147 Proxies 7O 217 Against the Motion Proxies 33 -112 Majority in favour of the Second Reading of the Bill 105 This announcement was received with tre mendous cheers, which lasted several minutes. At twelve o'clock their Lordships began to disperse. The excitement was more extraordi nary than any thing witnessed in Parliament for a number of years. Several noble Lords were seen to felicitate each other on the auspicious Majority which spoke so loudly the sense of the Country. This Majority completely decides the fate of the Bill, which may now be said to have fairly passed the Rubicon of factious opposition. Soon, soon may its blessed effects be felt, 4nd long may they be enjoyed by a grateful posterity. The Duke and Duchess of. CLARENCE, and the Duchess of GLouc Esven, visited the Princess AuaUSTA yesterday, at her apartments in the- King's Palace, St. James's. The flocks of breeding ewes are now pretty generally yeaning, except pit the outhdolvns and some other districts, where they are habitually late. The for ward lambs are doing well, and many liaVe ti.lrea t di been hrntight into the'maticet front I:Deng . the borseo and the breeds that produce them early.—Bath Chronicle.' M.4.RC if OF REFINEMENT.---A poverty atripken female, one of a nomerons class who every morn ing search the antes and ilnsf-ht:93 thrown out from the houses into the streets of Exeter was oGierved few days ago pursuing her examination with kid gloves on her • mith. Chronicle, • • r A young Gentleman, who was residing Lk,. Arst ws - ,4 at worcester College, Oxford, was unfortunately on 'atUrday last, by the upsetting ;If his skiff, Whilst entering `Ridley Chelterlharn Chronicle. , II EXTII.AO4I)I MIN --"TUesdav LatiiNa • e betwikzt eleven twelve e'elock in the forenoon, the St. David steamer, belonging to Woodside Verry, took on boat d, at the slip, Liverpool, a mourning coach 'and hearse, with five horses, four of which belonged to the carriages, and the other to out 3 t..e passenger,. -. was near high water, and when the boat had shot out from the shore for a which i$ variously bout thrve hundred viare4 y o n:d t s f h o e r g p :t rt a ib l f is , : 4 (t v h e e ts c o T o s n e 4ated) ov er tu one this time the hearse was ~viiidiass being one of the wheels as a sc o t c h t o prev e nt th e ic)atareeciaageungda;nrway,.tlll iron ~14410 of the in i ? i r i c : h instant t . d 9 itrh !? ::: u ° upon g 4 . t d h e kr T o b ju i c g a i :t : og After s a l : dhie3ll4allepupene,dwreear4s ing4l4so f feW gisPeot*, and presenting, although a grave p beneath the stream, leaving the sable plumes of feathers flouting on the surface of the water, which were soon af terwards picked up and brought to shore. The hearse of p,t h l:h o cee w :i: e :g ie a: r itiri n t.r r : oved in,llffleifv ; course sunk.-- Oxford Herald. • THE COLOSSEUM. THE Public are respectfully invited , to au inspection of this MAGNIFICENT EXHIBI TION in its progress towards Completion. The Work consists of a STUPENDOUS PANORAMA of LONDON , taken from the summit of ST. PAUL'S, a SALOON foe the reception of WORKS of ART, a long range of CON• SERVATOMES, and a SWISS COTTAGE, &c. &e. Admission ss. each Person from 10 till Dusk. THE DEBATE. THE ATLAS OF TO-MORROW wil l sontsin the FULLEST REPORT of tke DEBATO in the HOUSE of LORDS, to the conclusion of the pm' ceedings on Saturday night. Atlas Office, Beaufort-buildings, This day was published, IVIR. PEEL'S SPEEC El• (BY PERMISSION.) In Octavo, price 21. ed. " Mirror of Parliament" Office, 52, Parliament' street, March 31, 1829. The Proprietors of the MIRROR of PARLIAMEN T respectfully inform the Public that they have this day published, by Exrigss Pzsmismox, the OXLY authentic and corrected Report of Mr. SECRETARY PEEL'S SPEECH, on Thursday, the bth of Marsh, on the Bo" man Catholic Question. To be had at the Office, as above ; of Messrs. Lear man and Co. ; Hatchard and eons ; Ridgway and Soto; Parhury and Allen ' • Calkin and Budd ; J. Booker; cheater and Varnham ; and of all the Booksellers in the United Kingdom. , - • A t . ' 0-Ll, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 4, 1829. The Debate on the Catholic Relief Bill in the House of Lords last night was again an adjourned one. It was resumed to-day at one o'clock. A Division is confidently expected to-night. The following are extracts from German. Papers, received this morning : VIENNA, ateacte 22.. Prince Philip of HOBO Homburg has returned from St. Petersburgh. A report has been circulated on 'Change , and has had some effect on our Funds, that the English Government has resolved to send a separate negociator to Constantinople. It was not said that the Freach Goy vernment had a similar intention. FLOILENCI, 2•141/11CR 19. M. Eynard, who during this winter has reeilied alto' !lately here and at Pisa, frequently gives us news frOgn Greece, which is the constant object of his beneficent - 0 4 ' efficacious exertions. Through him we have received die, most satisfactory assurances respecting the sentiments 0 , the French Government. It is all but positively certain that 4,000 men will be left there for two years sod w orst as long as the welfare of the country requires it. The in formation which that generous Government has receiee 4 respecting the state of things there, and the necessity of core' pleting the great work of humanity which it is has begun, b+s produced the happiest effect, and the friends of the Greek° need no longer be alarmed by the expression in the Speech . of the King of France from the throne, " that a longer co" cupation will be of no advantage." Recent events, sli d the conduct of the Porte relative to the proposals of 11. Jaubert, have sufficed to fix the opinion of the Govern' went on this suhject. Vialtsrs, Mattes 23.—Metalliques, 97i; Bank Sharee,, 1,092. LOWIE RHINE, MAIROI 20. A great sensation has been caused at Coleco; by at' failure of one of the oldest and most respectable bankers hi' that city; it is the house of Godinke—not ouly one of thc first sugar-refiners, but which also carried on , a very S 5, tensive trade by commission. The many fluctuations the prices of raw sugar last year are said to hare boo the chief cause of this misfortune. An offer .of 60 per ooath bad been made to the creditors. SHIPPING IN TIM] .IGENCIC-(THIS DAY FROM LLOYD'S.. Mut., APRIL S.—Wind W.S.W.—Arrived }he Ret.• burgh, Denny, from India ; Ceres, Warren, from Hair bay ; Salaeia, Hearn, from Jamaiaa • Gre e so c k i fro", Bengal; Capt. Cook, Willis, from Bombay ;) Young, from Bengal; and Elizabeth, Ball, eta the 10! of France.—Remain the Eleanor, Edmoudl l iUd Brun wick, Parker, for Madras. , j ., PoRTSSIOUTH, his Majesty's skip Herald, from Barbadoes; Print:o lo gent, Scott, from St. Michael's. Passed tilt CAP taill Cook, Willis, from „Bombay ; Eliza, Fuze, from Pensuiri, Mary, from New York ; Hibberts, Thacker, from B° bay; Aurora, Thomson, from Havannah. FALMOUTH, N..—. Arrived the nor A Packet, from Carthagena, sailed Ath February, and •"*" maiea 17th. Marmara, APRIL S.—Arrived the Beatrice,: Qatels l4 from St. Kitt's. Arrived off the Start the Cleoptc 6 Harvey, from Havannah ; Plymouth, Bartlett, from ;kir , leaton ; Natchea, from New York. „. , THE FUNDS.-(THIS DAY.) CITY, TwELtr Consols have been rather heavy this morning, and -1 ' 11.7 remain at their opening price, 871 -I, both for snoollY A account. Exchequer Bills, R 01, pm. ii India Bpi' ' 51 2 pm. , • In the Foreign Market, Brazilian Bonds are rather lower; Colombiln are very heavy at 16i ; Mexican are 211 I %., and Russian have touched 96. • , In Shares, Imperial Brazilian Mines are lower, 22 4 P', TT,' 0 O'CLOCK. No alteration either in the English or Foreign Mitrim i • THREE O'CLOCIC, Consols, 1:37i. FOUR O'CLOCK.—CLOSING. PRIX Consols 871 Do. for Ac. 871 Brazilian Bonds Buenos Ayres Daaish 64f - 1 Greek, 1825 Mexican, 1825 21* Peruvian Chilian Do. Columbian, 1824 15 Russi ..7-; Spanish THE MARKETS. (THIS DAY.) COVNT-GAIt. The 'flinty was moderately go steady; priees of both Fruit and on this day selmight. s.d. s.d. Potatoes (per cwt.) 3 0 to 6 0 Cal bages (12 heads) 1 6 2 6 Ditto Red 2 0 4 01 Horse Itadish(bundle) • i t 0 Brocoli ..... 2 0 3 0 1 9 2 3, ithubarb , .1 0 1 6 Carrbts'ilßbanches), 5 0 '7 6 Turnips • ti 2 0 Colewotts orQreops,, 1 9 9 6 YIMINCPIII9rii leeks 0 9 1 0 Brocoli Sprouts (bush )0 9 1 0 Turnip Greens 0 6 0 9 Sea.kail (pnmmet) IEN MARKET. xi this morning, a nd t he'traw , Vegetables about the sal. *P • Spina nsge (half-sieve) I ell fit Applc9 0.4.41.,:.4..+. 6 g Sweiit Grangeskloo)...3 0 . Seville Ditto 6 6 0 - 0 0 0 1 4 , Roishet (hand). " v" no Spao. heinUta (oe4) a 0 French ditto 3 0 0 §panish Haslenuts s o la 0 French Walnuts 4 0 v Filberts (121 b.) • f ! -1: 9 Grapes (per i.O 45, Strawberries (oku.c.e) Trugtoi.i Pgc 4 44 f NtEsts. IlAY•l44llli9it , - —, Coarse he's!) , Lowland Meadow Best New Meadow 14.- £2 9lc , sAto 41 --. • Fine Upland Meadow and Rye-grass Hay". 3 fo" 4 . Clover Hay 4sll !g a i 0 Oat Straw It 19 to £1 ' Wh eat ,t I . .rhiat Sp•aw 1 4 14 1 A great supply, ' 1 ,,4 a fery dull trade, at Thursday's priceOt • .. SMITHVIELIL a 15 : Coate hoyy TAWland Meadow Hay ~„ ... „,„„ £2 5 to X. n . Bed New Meadow Hay 2 15 0 " t) 4 Fine Upland Meadow and Rye-grass Hay 3 0 Clover Hay (extra fine)....fs 0 ... Generally 3 0 IS , Oat Straw £l Bto £1 12—Wheat Straw 1 12 1 i A good supply, and a very dull trade; prices as last quoted. Thursday his Excellency Baron ByLow, P l '. vo y Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary of , Wiest. , the _ -1 • • 11 ,1 ; , i Pt riUTBSI.I at the Court of Londe! , jointly with Mr , an at • 01 le • ID i3OTH SC I LD, and accompanied by Mr. JOIIN VENN, Notary Public, cancelled and dep.' sited in the Bans p England the amount of 51,00 0 , 14 41eat is houds cif the Prussian Loan, negociated Py t Mr. N. M. ROTHSCUILD, in 1 'BlB, being the fir half of the sum fixed for the redemption of bonds in Om. eleventh year, and also the saving of the iutereat oa tb e . 1,034,6001. redeemed to the lit of October last. PRINSID and Puslasman by MUIDO YOUNG, st*, 0FF404, 114, eIAND, Lenox, I