The Sun. — London, England, 1858-07-30 00:00:00

re 2 . 1 ••POSTAL COMMUNICATION WITH AUS TRALIA. THE RIVAL ROUTES. A meeting of . the members of the Australian Association and other gentlemen connected with the Australian colonies was held yesterday, at the Lon don Tavern, to take into consideration the best means of providing an effective mail service, Whether by a double line—viz., the Suez on the one hand, and Panama on the other —or by the Suez line only. lir. YOUNG was voted to the chair, and explained that, at the general meeting of the association, held on the 30th of June last, a series of resolutions `which had been agreed to by the passengers on boarathe April Australian steamer (the Victoria) here submitted, and, in accordance with the views then expressed, the present meeting had been called specially to take these resolutions into con sideration. Ile presumed that no discussion would arise' upon any of the resolutions except the 7 th and Bth, and w ished to impress on all present the importance of setting aside all petty jealousies and considerations of local interest, and joining together to obtain the sanction of the Government to a better system of postal communication. So far as he un derstood, these resolutions pitpFessed the feelings of the col onists respecting the Australian mail ser vice, and they were intended to form the substra tum of a representation to what was desired. The object was to furnish the Government with the views of those who were most interested_ in -the • - •• question, with the view of influencing their deci sion in any contract they might contemplate en tering into Mr. Yon, the secretary to the association, pro ceeded to read the resolutions. They were headed -" We, the passengers by the Australian steam ship Victoria, mostly old residents of the Austra lian colonies and others interested in an effective snail service between Great Britain and those dis tant possessions, having paidconsiderable attention to the subject, and having had opportunity of per sonal observation of the working of the'system, and of some of the causes which have led to the present irregularity of the mail service, wish to give ex pression to our opinions in the following resolu tions." The first three resolutions were put and adopted as follows "That the continuous failures by which the various schemes for effecting mail communication between Great Britain and Australia have been characterised have been productive of very serious loss and inconvenience to all exposed to their influence, and have led to the deepest mortification and dissatisfaction throughout the colonies. "That the present aspect of affairs connected with the service affords no reasonable hope of any improvement ; but, on the contrary, the flagrant inadequacy of all the arrangements is daily becoming more thoroughly apparent. ' "That even with a mail line of the most inefficient and irregular character the mails are increasing in num ber and importance, and an amount of traffic is growing up, of an extent, and with a rapidity, calculated to show the very large and profitable results naturally contingent upon a service conducted with spirit, speed, and regu larity." The fourth resolution was then put : "That the great dissatisfaction with the present ser- Vice is shown by resolutions and discussions in the Aus tralian parliaments and Chambers of Commerce, and by petititions presented to the House of Commons, urging the termination of the existing contract, a proceeding which appears imperatively called for, and essential to getting the service put upon a proper footing." Mr. Your. moved the omission of the words "and by petitiins presented to the House of Com mons urging the termination of the existing con tract," on the ground that there was now, in fact, no existing contract. After some conversation this amendment was agreed to, and the resolution as amended was adopted. The fifth and sixth resolutions were also con firmed; viz. : " That the unsatisfactory working of the former expe riments by the route rice Suez is so clearly traceable to mismanagment and want of experience, that its effective operation is undoubted, if undertaken by competent par ties, possessed of the necessary means, and that nothing should be allowed to supersede the service by that line. "That the dissatisfaction universally prevailing in Australia is attributable solely to the delays and irregu , laxities of the service, the amount of subsidy having always been considered of secondary importance to a service upon which the colonists could implicitly de pend." The CHAIRMAN suggested that the seventh and eighth . clauses should be taken together, as they both related to the same subject—the fortnightly communication and Panama route. They were : "That the importance to which the Australian colo nies have now attained seems to entitle them to a postal communication of no longer date than fortnightly, and that a line established between Sydney and Panama via New Zealand, has for many reasons become ex4emely desirable, if not a matter of ac'.ual necessity, would meet the requirements of the colonists of New South Wales, and by the action of a legitimate rivalry would tend to lead to great efficiency in the entire service. "That the very great importance of a mail service vip.Panausa is clearly shown by reference to the serious disadvantages which the important colonies of New South Wales and New Zealand libour from their local position, co sufficient relief being attainable under the present system. Very great advantage moreover be derived from this route in the event of any interrup tion to the mail service via SUEZ by political disturb ances in Europe, while a direct conimmunication will be opened up wi.h the United States and South America, the importance of which can scarcely be too highly ap preciated." Mr. DE Sims supported those resolutions. He expressed surprise that any objection should be made to the Panama route by the Australian As sociation, the more so as they were nut asked to support it as a main line, but merely as subsidiary to the Suez line. The nature of the objection as tonished him still more. Publicly be had heard no objection stated, but privately he had been told that the association were anxious that the colonies should not be Americanised, which they feared it would be if the Panama route were adopted, inas much as it would be certain to bring an influx of Americans into them. If gentlemen supposed that they could isolatethese colonies from America they were mistaken. They might as well think of isolat hag London from Paris, or England from America. Isolation in the 19th century was impossible. (Hear.) The next ground of objection was that of Expense. ense But who was going to pay for it 'I The southern colones were not to be asked to pay for it. The Legislature of New South Wales was about to contribute liberally towards it, and the Govern ment of this country were anxious not only to do what was just, but to do it liberally. The Govern ment said, "If you think the time has arrived when the two routes ought to be established, we shall be ready to contribute such sum as may he necessary to carry cut the communication." That was the feeling of the Government, but if the meeting passed a resolution declaring that the two routes ought not to be carried out, he was not sure that the Government would not turn round upon them and say, "You are the gentlemen acting for the colonies ; we will defer to your views, and defer for an indefinite period the consideration of the line which the legislature of one colony has declared to be of the utmost importance to the progress of the colony." Captain TowNE—Two colonies. There is New Zealand. - • Air. DE S.Alls—His friend (Capt. Towne) bad reminded him of New Zealand, which was a most valuable colony, the future of which could not be ever estimated. All they were asked to do was t o confirm a resol u ti on w hi c h was necessary to com plete the circl e o f s t eam communicationta t h wouldthen e be established ro u nd th e wor ld when the Suez WAS extended from Syd ney t o P anama to America and Southampton. He hopedi and if they divided upon the resolution that the names -of the members would be given, so that its might be known who were for and who were against , promoting the commerce, the civilisation, and the empire of the colonie. (Hear.) Mr. YouL remarked that from March, 1855, when the Australian Association was formed, until November in that year, they believed that the Panama route w as th e ortest ' • but a pamphlet published by tke Post-office Committee at that time i sa al t a is e f d aot of or s il a y u showed that the Suez route by the Diego Garciawas 76 deg. of longi tude nearer than that of Pana ma. Consequently the committee had decided tha a t r t a h . is route was the best, and the contract was enteinto. He would not enter into the reasons why tha t t e contract had broken down ; they knew that ships were utterly unfit for the work. Th e government bad intended to have the ships tried befo re they went out, but there had not been time, and th e e quence was that the failure which had beenponr:ge nosticated had occurred. There were upon the committee representatives of New South Wales, who concurred in the resolution in favour of the Suez route. He bad a table of distances, which showed that Melbourne was eight days seventeen hours nearer to London by Suez than by Panama at an average speed ef ten knots ; and Sydney wa, I,l4o,miles nearer. That was without taking into account the necessary divergence for coaling at Tahiti.. He .0013tendtd that not only for the benefit of Melbo urne ,. b u t o f Sydney and all the other °°lo4B,an efficient postal service would be best carried- on_ by the Suez route. Nor could they ith an y ctimacie_nce go to the government, and ask them to aid i n while they had never establishment of a second route, the one route of eeneiryjt been abl e t o carry out Y. It would take all the money the colonies.could •afford—all their patron age in passengers, merchandis e, and gold—and al, TIlELisl, the money e n t ht eli n G oev o y jatablish e ra anc (if they divided the resour ces, they would have ue ither the n e n n m t wunoiuclaatitv, e,to one nor the other. He believed that if they had the two routes, letters starting on the Ist of the month by Panama would reach the colonies at the same time as letters posted on the 16th would arrive by the Suez route. In con clusion he called upon all who preferred one efficient line to two which would be comparatively useless, to support the amendment which he Tro , uld now submit, to substitute for the 7th and 6th resolu tions the following :—" That whereas t 1 to Imperial Government has not yet been able to perfect a monthly service via Suez, this meeting: does not deem it advisable to apply for a second service via Panama, until a monthly communication by the former route be satisfactorily established." Mr. ASHURST seconded the amendment. Lord A. CHURCHILL, Mr. FORLONGE, an d other gentlemen, supported the amendment ; an d Capt. TOWNE, of Sydney, spoke at considerable length in favour of the Panama route, contending that the contributions of the colonies would amount to gether to 130,0001., and the subsidy of the Govern ment of an equal sum would supply the -means, if moderate-sized vessels were used, for carrying out both routes. Mr. E. WILSON said he should be glad to see both lines established, and entertained great expectations from the legitimate rivalry between two competing companies, which would be the result of opening up both lines. He believed the Government were favourably disposed towards a fortnightly commu nication, and were awaiting with some interest the result of the decision of the association. If the two lines should be conceded, the relative propor tions of the subsidy to be paid would be easily settled by each colony, and it was most objectionable to be splitting straws when the great object was to go before the Government with an unanimous expres sion of opinion. The colonies had been combining together to obtain a good postal service, and he did not see how New South Wales could expect an in dependent service of an effective kind ; and failing bite concession of an independent service, in what position would she be placed if she should hold herself aloof and refuse to pay a subsidy? In de termining upon the best route the fact ought not to be lost sight of that if vessels of sufficient capacity were employed they might proceed at once from Sing George's Sound to Aden, and thus establish an efficient passenger communication. It was very well to say that a postal service ought to be ob tained without reference to passenger traffic. It certainly was not right to subsidise a passenger line, but at the same time such a line ought not to be made a stumbling-block in the way of passenger traffic. If the boats were too small for general passenger traffic, and the rates were rather high, such a number of persons might be induced to go by the mail packets that no other parties would have a chance in the way of competition. (Hear, hear.) Mr. FITZGERALD quoted a letter from the cap tain of the Golden Age, showing that the Panama route was shorter in time than that by Suez, and that the passage was by means a dangerous one. He also reminded the meeting that when the Ame rican telegraph was completed they would, if the Panama line were adopted, bring the colonies within 28 days of Londan by telegraphic commu nication. Captain PA.RFITT was of opinion that the diffi culties of coaling in the Pacific would render it necessary, if they adopted the Panama route, to employ very large and expensive vessels. He be lieved that a fortnightly communication by Suez might be carried out at the same cost as a monthly communication by Panama. Mr. W. ARCHER said it was well known that the Panama route was not so quick as that by Suez, and therefore, if a fortnightly communic tion was established, the Suez route ought to be adopted. The spot on the ocean ought to be selected where the best terminus could be found for Australia ge nerally, without reference to any particular colony, and in his opinion Melbourne was the most cen tral point for such purpose. But the communica tion with Melbourne might be considerably im proved, for a company was projected which would perform the distance, by way of Suez, within 47 days, by means of larger steamers than were at pre sent employed. Besides, the electric telegraph could be established from Suez to London with much greater ease than from Sydney to Panama. Under these circumstances he should not be disposed to go before the Government with a recommendation of the Panama route as the fortnightly route for Australia. Mr. YouL, in explanation, said the Government had distinctly informed him that they were only prepared to pay a subsidy for one route, and that they did not see the necessity for any other, and the merchants whom he had consulted were very indifferent about the matter. Mr. WILSON said that if the seventh and eighth resolutions should be negatived altogether the sub ject of the fortnightly communication would be ignored. As he did not think the association ought to adopt that course he would move as an amend ment the retention of the words in the seventh resolution down to the word " fortnightly," and the omission of the remainder of that resolution, and also the eighth resolution. After some further discussion Mr. Wilson's amendment was put and negatived by a majority of one, the numbers in its favour being eight, and against it nine. The amendment of Mr. Youl was then put and carried by a majority of 16 against six. The remaining resolutions, as follows, were then agreed to : "That inasmuch as the steamers generally employed have been found incapable of performing the voyage within the specified time, the vessels to be employed in such service should be of a size and power to secure a speed of 10 knots with all reasonable certainty. " That past experience having shown the impractica bility of performing so long a voyage as that between Suez and Sydney and back in the same vessel, a chan-ie of steamers at Point de Galle appears to be essential to an effective service. "That the rapidity with which the bottoms of iron ships become fsnl in tropical seas necessitates the provi sion of slips or wet docks at Saul, or other suitable port, for the removal of such growth at each trip, should iron vessels be employed. "That to secure the proper performance of any con tract it is necessary that the contractors should keep reserve-ships to meet unforeseen accidents. " That the lamentable and irritating failures to which the Australian service has been continuously subjected appear to have been in no slight degree attributable to r f e e r a e u n i deferencet e g e i given r e o n o n e e o w r associ organisationti o ne, n f o o r t a possessed . t o h f e th d e e tant service •, and that, in ail futiro a rra n g e men t s , d ue weight sho u ld b e attached to the claims of existing com panies of ack now l e d ge d character, experience, and resources. " That an entire suspension of steam communication, such as has been usually consequent upon any change in the contracts, appears but too probable in the present case : bat that such suspension is deeply to be deprecated as provocative of the greatest dismay and indi,gnation throughout an important group of colonies, already greatly irritated by perpetual failures. " That in those reso.utious the conviction is ever kept in view that postal communication is beyond all compa rison the chief consideration ; but the last few months have shown that the passenger traffic almost necessarily inseparable from a mail service is certain to be very large, rapidly increasing, and highly remunerative to a properly managed company ; and while acknowledging the pre eminent claims of mail communication, it is conceived that such passenger traffic is well deserving of considera tion ; and that care should be taken to guard it from any chance of subjection to a monopoly, perhaps tyrannical and obstructive. " That a committee, con sisting of seven gentlemen (to be elected by ballot), three to form a quorum, be ap pointed to further the views expressed in these resolu tions, to advertise in, the Times, if it be thought advis able, and to communicate with the leading men of the several Australian colonies, to secure their co operation in the est a blish men t o f an effective service." After a vote of thanks to the chairman, the pro ceedings terminated. THE TREATMENT OF LUNATICS AT ACOMB-HOUSE RE ITEAT. • The statement of the cruelties practised towards Mrs. Turner, wife of one of the official assignees of the Liverpool Bankruptcy Court, as described be fore the Com m i ss i oners of Lunacy at York, has been laid before the Lunacy Commissioners, who have promptly directed an inquiry into the conduct of Mr. Metcalfe, the keeper of Acomb-house. The following letter has been received by the solicitor of Mrs. Turner, from which it will be seen that the investigation will commence this morning. " Office of Commissioners in Lunacy, 19, Whitehall-place, July 28. " The board have received your letter of yester day's date, describing the result of an investiga tion, under a commission of lunacy, into the state of mind of Mrs. Maly Jane Turner, and in reply I am directed to inform you that they have this day (in pursuance of au intention communicated on Monday last, the %Ili inst., to the foreman of the . jury on the commission of lunacy) ordered an in qulry to be made into the special circumstances disclosed in the course of the evidence, and into the existing condition and management of Acomb heuse, in reference to the patients therein. am to add that Mr. Lutwige and Mr. Wilkes, the commissioners appointed, will proceed to York to morrow to conduct the proposed inquiry ; and have the goodness to meet them at York attended by your client, Mrs. Turner, as early as possible on the morning of Friday, the 30th.—I am, sir, your oberlient servant. "JOHN FOSTER, Secretary. Pemberton, Esq., Solicito r ," Mrs. Turner, accompanied by her solicitor, left Liverpool yesterday afternoon for York. LONDON, IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS. --(CESTERDA.Y.) The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clock. Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition against the bill for legalising marriage with a deceased wife's sister. The Earl of fetINTO said it was against the rules of the house to pr tseot petitions against any bill which had been alrearly rejected. Lord CAMPB ELL apologised for presenting the pe tition, but at the same time he must be allowed to ex press his satisfacl ;ion that the bill had not been read a Becloud tim e. ITNIVER.STTIES (SCOTLAND) BILL. Upen the ord, it of the day being read for the conside ration of the Coi nmons' reasons for disagreeing to some of the amendmer its made by the Lords to this bill, The Duke of . MONTROSE regretted the Commons objected to mar sy of the amendments that had been made by their is rdships, but rather than lose the mea sure, which it w as so important should be passed this session, he the tight upon the whole the best course would be not to persist in those amendment.. After a few w ords from the Earl of Haddington, Lord Campbell, and ti le Earl of Minto, the amendments were withdrawn. FRIENDLY ; SOCIETIES' ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This bill was i *ad a third time and passed. GOVERNMEN T OF NEW CALEDONIA BILL. This bill was r ad a third time and passed. D. PAY BILL. This bill passe d through committee, and was reported. The Consolid: ed Fund Appropriation Bill passed through commits e, and was reported, without amend ments. The following :bills also passed through committee : Militia (Services s Abroad), Militia Acts Continuance, No. 2, Judgmt nits (Ireland) Act Continuance, and Drafts on Bank ars Law Amendment. CORRUPT P RACTICES PREVENTION BILL. This bill havii iq passed through committee, Lord E 13171 1 -1, on the bringing up of the report, moved the om ission of the clause which legalises the payment of the travelling expenses of ;totem The noble earl ( Haxdwicke) in explaining the object of this bill the oth , sr night, said the object of this clause was to enable p oor voters to exercise their right to vote without incurrir ig loss in so doing, but on examining the clause, be (Lord Ebury) did not find one word about poor voters. T fie clause, if agreed to, would enable every person vo ting at an election of a member of Par liament to claim his expenses, and the result would be that enormous e zpanse would be entailed upon the can didate, and that which bad hitherto been looked upon as bribery would r tceive the sanction of Parliament. The Earl of 1 lARDWICKE said, the single object of the bill was to r emedy the present unsettled state of the law on this quet rtion of the carriage of voters. No one knew exactly now what to do. The consequence was that the greatest inecEnality and unfairness was produced in election contests. It was for the advantage of all parties that some strict defined rule should be laid down on which all might act alike. Lord STAN LEY of ALDERLEY entertained in superable objections to this clause, and if it passed thr , bill ought to be called a measure for the " promotion , " not the " preveintion," of corrupt practices. It would open the door to all sorts of corruption and bribery and would give the advantage in every case to the wealthiest condidat. He recommended that the question should be deferred until it could be dealt with in the large mea sure of Parliamentary Reform which the Government bad uneertaken to introduce next s,ssion, The Earl of WICKLOW thought that the question ought to be decided whether or not a voter could be legally culled to the poll. The object was either to bring the poll to every voter, or every voter to the poll. The former proposition was not practicable, and there- fore he supported the clause. Lord CAMPBELL complained of the late period of the session at which so important a measure had been brought before their lordships. It was read a second time, he believed, on the very day fixed by the noble lord the Chairman of Committees as the last day on which their lordships would read any bill a second time, and therefore, if not contrary to the letter, it was con trary to the spirit of the noble lord's resolution. Ar guments might be urged on both sides of the question, and he was not prepared to give any positive opinion upon them. It was very important that the honest and poor voter should exercise the franchise ; but to give him facilities might open the door to bribery and cor ruption. Instead of removing doubts in the law the clause would give rise to many difficult questions. The necessity for legislation was not urgent, and it had been annoucced in the other house that a Reform Bill was to be introduced next session, when the whole subject would be discussed. It was impos,ible to doubt that the clause would add greatly to the expense of elections. Non-resident electors would be brought from remote parts of the country, from the continent, and possibly from Australia. The expenses not being payable to the voter himself could only be paid by an agent, and a special messenger might be sent to accom pany each non-resident voter. Then would arise the question which he bad no doubt would soon be discussed in Westminster-ball, whether conveyance did not include refreshment and cisnveyance back again—whether all the consequences of what was enacted were not enacted. Those were specimens of the questions which would arise, and as no evil could result from postponement he entreated their lordships not to agree to the clause. Lord REDESDALE reminded their lordships that the Corrupt Practices Act of 1854 came up after the day fixed as the last day on which they would read a bill a second time, and was read a second time as a bill of ur gency. Tnis bill had received the approval of Lord Pal merston and Lord John Russell, and he thought they were justified in acceding to a proposition which came to them with such authority, and which peculiarly af fected the privileges of the other house. Earl GRA.NVILLE said there was this very essential difference between the dates of reading this bill and the bill of 1854 a Becloud time. In this case, the last day on which they would read bills a second time happened to be fixed five days before the end of the session, and in 1854 it was 18 days before the end of the session. He did not think that too much stress ought to be laid upon the supposed acquiescence of Lord Palmerston and Lord J. Russell in this clause, because the former noble lord distinctly stated that there were arguments on both sides, and Lord J. Russell expressed a strong opinion that this ought to be merely a continuance bill. He concurred with the noble and learned lord in his objec tion to the period at which their lordships were called upon to pass a measure which was only read a second time on Tuesday at the tail of twenty-eight other orders of the day. Lord Lyndhurst thought the bill in its present shape so objectionable that he bad authorised him to obtain a pair for him against the claws, if their lord,hipo should divide upoa it. (Hear.) When their lordships remembered that the Secrerary of State had expressed au opinion that thi s bill oug ht t o b e re mtomibtrtieneg, ainndatgbaenteitrawlas measuretheinteinnttiohne o f e f r t r h e d e t G o o a v e s r e n l e m c t e e n , t early part of next session, there could be no pretext for hurrying their lordships into the adoption of a premature and ill-considered alteration of the law. He had, there fore, great pleasure in supporting the motion of his noble friend. Their lordships then divided — Contents Non-Contents Majority for the clause The report was then received. JUDGMENTS (IRELAND) ACT AMENDMENT BILL. . 43 .. 23 This bill, with amendments, went through committee. DIVORCE AND MATRIMONIAL CAUSES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The Commons' amendments to this bill were consi dered. Lord REDESDALE proposed that clause 5, enabling persons abroad to institute proceedings, which had been struck out by the Commons, should be restored. He had no wish to take any step which might endanger the bill; but he thought the Commons should have an opportunity of reconsidering their decision. After a few words from Lord CIIANWORTH, The Commons' amendment was disagreed with, and the clause restored to the bill. Clause A, sent up from the Com Mons, was agreed to with an amendment by their lordships ; and the other Commons' amendments were also agreed to. PROBATE AND LETTERS OF ADMINISTRA TION ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The Commons' amendments in this bill were agreed to, GOVERNMENT OF INDIA. BILL. The order of the day for the consideration of the Com mons' reasons for disagreeing with the amendments made by the Lords in this bill having been read, Lord DERBY said—lt could hardly be expected that on a question of so much importance, and involving so many varied considerations as this, there should not be differences of opinion between the members of each House of Parliament, and also between the two houses them selves. Your lordships made several amendments in this bill, to the greater number, though perhaps not the most important, of which the Commons do not object. There are, however, five amendments which were made by your lordships to which that house has objected, and for objecting to which they have sent reasons to your lord ships. Perhaps it may be convenient that, instead of dealing entirely separately with each of these amend ments, I should at once state the course which the G, vernment are prepared to take with regard to them all, leaving the decision upon each for subsequent discussion and consideration. The first amendment with which the House of Commons have disagreed will be found in the seventh line of the ninth page of the bill, As the bill came f r om the House of Commons it was provided that, with reward to all despatches which m ight require se- crecy—and that there were some that did require it was not denied by any one—the Secretary of State should fxreige the functions formerly performed by the secret committee of the Court of Directors. It was objected by my noble friend (Lord Ellen borough)that that provision gave to the Secretary of State not only a power whicb was not absolutely necessary, but a much greater autho rity than is now vssessed by the President of the Board of Coutr 1, because, although the President may insist upon sending out auy secret orders, be must communi cate them to the Chairman and Deputy-Chairman of the East India Company, and, therefore, although he is not wouldi :g t ie d nneoe w bend bound to follow their advice, he must necessarily ha ve a consultation with them before taking a step which may lead to very i m p or t an t consequen c es . My noble friend a with a ve p r lm y a gegreatdhtin a u f p o o r n c e positionht i h s a o t ow t fhnere moresp Secretaryonbibi completetfy State n t a a dn t ed e . p , without hearing the opinion or advice of any of the EVENING, oonncillora with whom the law surrounds him, take a step which might have most important and most preju dicial effects. In compliance with thetse representatitocs of my noble friend it was agreed to introduce iuto this clause words requiring the Secretary of State bef 're sending out secret orders to communicate them to the Vice-President of the Council and one other member, to be seise ed by himself. I think that that was a wise and judicious arrangement, and one which, without too much cramping the authority of the Secretary of State,secured to him the s tine means of obtaining assistance and ad vice as are possessed by the President of the Board pf Control under the existing system. It is, however, the opinion of the House of Commons, that the provision which we introduced "tends to divide the responsibility of the Minister, and create a now secret committee, which, under the new Government, will be no longer necessary." There is no question that, to a certain, but very limited extent—because the Secretary of State has the power of overruling the councillors whom he consults —it does relieve him from responsibility. If the House of Commons are of opinion that that responsibility should be so whole and undivided as not to require that he should consult any person whatever before he takes soimportant a step as sending secret orders out to India. undoubtedly that view is not carried out by the bill as it was sent down by your lordships. What the House of Commons means by saying that the Secret Commit• tee will under the new Government no longer be neces sary they do not explain, and of course I cannot ex plain it for them. I cannot say that I think the amend ment was an injudic ous one, or that its rejection by the Commons is a desirable alteration of the bill. At the same time, I do not think that,considering the very great interests which are involved in the passing of this bill, the amendment made dy your lordships is of sufficient im portance to justify you in adhering to it against the wish of the House of Cosnmons, and therefore I shall propose that your lordships do not persist in that amendment. For the same reason, because I think, that the question involved in them, though not an inconsiderable one, Ts only of subordinate importance, I shall ask your lord ships not to insist upon the amendments made in page 39, and 40 . The objections taken by the Commonsto these amendments appear to me to be ra ther inconsistent with that to which I have just referred. instance they objected that the amendment It 9, hn e lines thr a 7 in troduced by your lordships tended to divide the respon sibility of the Minister. In this instance, in which your lordships proposed to give to the Secretary of State un divided responsibility with regard to the appointment of the members of the Council of the Govsrnor-General, and of the different Presidencies in India, the House of Commons say that that undivided responsibility ought not to rest with the Minister, and that "it is undesir able to increase the patronage of the Minister without providing a check upon its exercise." The distinction between the views of the two houses is this. According to your lordships' amendment the Secretary of State was celled upon to make these appointments in Council, which rendered it necessary for him in every cave to lay the proposed appointment before the Council, and to listen to any objections which might be raised to it. The House of Commons have rejected that amend ment and restored the clause to the form in which it originally stood—viz., that the Secretary of State shall make these appointments, not only with the knowledge of the Council, but also with the concurrence of the votes of a majority of the councillors. As the previous alteration leaves to the Secretary of State too large a discretion, I think that this unduly restrains his po era and places too much in the bands of the Council as a body the- appointment to very important ffices, thereby encouraging what my noble friend (Lord Etlenborough) particularly deprecates—can vaisie e and the looking to individual members of the Council rather than to the Secretary of State in this country and to the Governor Geeeral in India. I object to this alteration, but I am not prepared to ask your lordships to persist in an amendment which has been deliheratsly and care fully considered and rajected by the House of Commons. The next two amendments to which the C •mmone object are in pages 10 and 11, and involve the principle of ap pointment by coinpeition. Now, I wish to draw your lordships' attention to the exact state of the case, and to the questions which are raised by the bill as it was sent up fr o m the House of Commons, by your lordships' amendment, and by the rejection of that amendment by the other house. As the bill originally stood, it was proposed to substitute the Secretary of Sate and Coun cil for the President of the Board of Contr.''l and the Court of Directors of the East India Company. With these authorities have hitherto rested the appointments to the civil and military services of the Company ; but candidates have been required to undergo a very severe and, to a certain extent, competitive examination. The particulars of that examination, and the amount of com petition which was to be introduced into it, have been regulated, n t by an Act of Parliament, but by instru ments proceeding from the competent authorities, and in substituting the Secretary of State and Council for those authorities the bill, as originally introduced, gave to the Secretary of State power of making regulations, to be confirmed by order in Council, as was formerly exer cised by the Court of Directors and the President of the Board of C Attrol. The House of Commons, however, went a step further, in the direction of a com petitive examination, and proposed not only that all candidates should be subjected to such an exa mination, but that the result of that competition should, without reference to any other circumstances or any other conditions, regulate the order of suc cession in which candidates should receive their appoint tnente. Ido not wish to enter now into the general question of the principle of competitive examination for admission to the civil or military service ; but I think there are two grounds on which your lordships' amend ments may be fairly vindicated, and their rejection by the House of Commons may be reasonably objected to. The one is, that the principle of competition was exactly as much secured, subject to the consent of Pa•liawent, by the bill, as it sto d in the first instance, and by the system as it exis'ed under the East India Company, in asmuch as the regulations being made and confirmed by order in count 1, that order in council, or any other order varying those regulations, having to be laid before the House of Commons, that house had an opportunity of expressing its opinion as to the expediency of such va riations. And seeing how much the print pie of compe tition is on its trial, perhaps its successful trial, at this moment, I think it was not judicious absolutely to tie the hands of the Executive Government as by an Act of Parliament to lay down such stringent rules as to the necessity of appointing the most successful competitor. Another objection is, that bitherto the regulation of ap pointments to the civil and military service of this country has not been under Act of Patliament, but by the direct authority of the Crown, of course under the responsibility of its advisers. This clause might therefore be regarded as to a certain extent infringing on the prerogative of the Crown in respect to these appointments. I must, how ever, fairly admit that there is a partial answer to this abjection as far as the civil service is concerned ; for, though undoubtedly such a regulation as to the civil service of this country would' he an infringement on the prerogative of tie Crown, it is not so clear that that in fraction would Extend to the case of India, because it is not a prerogative which the Crown has hither to exercised there. It is.a power and a prerogative which the House of Commons and Parliament are fur the first time vest ing in the Crown— viz , the administration of Indian affairs by direct management, and by patronage —which is t h e most important point —coon -cted with the services of India. Therefore it is competent for P a rliament to hand over that power and authority to the Crown sea mock—that is to say, sub ject to such conditions as at the time of the transfer it may.deem fit. Though Ido not assent to the principle adopted by the House of Commons, though I think it an unwise course so to fetter the hands of the Executive and of the Indian Minister as well as to limit the discre tion of Parliamer.t itself, yet in regard to the civil ser opep are ears no to w g v vice I ern not prepared to advise your lord s hip s t o insist on your amendment. But I must say there is another serviceptrienwgmhe icl 17.1 appears over the army of m h ea handing n stand e r o o t n quite Crown c h a d o f d t eh the ne t sf(u)o India ; but, by the 33i clause of this bill, it is provided that all appointments to cadetship shall be vested in her Majesty. And if you provide, as I think you must do, that with regard to the military service of India, as well as with regard to the military service of this coun try, all appointments of this description should be vested in the Crown, it is almost a contradiction in terms to say, in the first instance, that all cadetships in the scien tific branch shall be vested in her Majesty, and to follow that up by sating that no persons shall be recommended except in the precise order as they come out of a com petitive examination, and that the Crown shall be com pelled to exercise its authority according to the result of that competition, With respect to the civil service, it may be argued that practically speaking, the Crown does not exercise that authority over appointments which are perhaps by the strict theory of the constitution vested in it. But, in reference to the army, whether of this country or of India, it is of great importance that we should - not lone sight of the principle that the Crown, and not Parliament, is the true source of appoint ment and - of promotion. (Hear, hear.) That is a con stitutional principle which I confess I should see aban doned with very great regret ; and I think this point has not been maturely considered by the House of Com mons. As to admission to the civil service, the question Was raised io that assembly, the other house, was dis- T lit h er is ra b t e e in d g eei a cussed, and a di v i s i on taken upon is, when t he Govern gancoomtheer to reason a d e must, no doubt i n a thin house, was left in a minority. why we should no t i ns i s t on our amendment with regard to it. B u t th e power o f the Crown in theory and in decision °o and on the thiso t other subject,hou t h h a a t v Caving practice over appointments and promotions in the army I hold to be a matter of very considerable constitutional importance. The house of Commons, however, appears rather hastily to have inferred that the same necessity applied to the military as to the civil service ; and, rte• cordingly, it introduced into this clause amendments re lating to cadetships in the scientific branches corre sponding to those applicable to the civil service. This was done without taking into serious consideration and discussing whether there is not a broad constitutional daitinction between the power of the Crown over the civil and the military departments respectively. This is a point of such great reomett that, without saying that, even if the ether house should adhere to its opinion, I should think it prefarabla that this important measure -should be lost, and that these lone discussions should be protracted to another session, with all the inconvenience attending such ara ad interim government of an empire like India, ail' it a ould be unwise for your lordships hastily and at once t o a d op t th e d e cision of the House of Commons in rejection af your amendments. And as respects tte provisi on t h at th e Crown shall be bound to grant Cade ship s p rec i se l y in accordance with the suc cess of the candidates in a competitive examination, it is I believe due t o th e preroga ti ve of the Crown, due to your lordships' own position, due to the great interests involved, as well as respectful to the other house itself, that it shouli be invited to consider the marked distinction `between the two ca ses , an d that as the formal mode of attaining that end your lordship should be advised to FRIDAY 1858. • insist on your amendment, which strikes out that abso lute and imperative condition imposed on the Crown of selecting for cadetships in the scientific branches of the army those persons who may have most distinguished l themselves at the exaniinatioe, and that, too, in the ex act order in which they have so distinguished them selves. (Hear.) There is another clause as to which the House of Commons seems to have shared the titisap• prehensions entertained by some of your lordships. I allude to clause 54, which was much discused here, and which requires that whenever any order directing acoial hostilities to be commenced shall be issued, the feet of its issue shall be communicated to both Houses of Par- Lament, In the original provision the communication to Parliament was to be made within one month from the date of sending out the order ; but your lortlehips amended it to three months if Parliament should be sit ting, adding at the same time the word , "unless such order shall be revoked or suspended." If Parliament was not sitting, then the communication was to be made within a month after its next meeting. Perhaps the clause is not sufficiently explicit, because the intention is that if at the end of three months Parliament should not be sitting, then within three months after the re sumption uf its deliberations the notice in question should be given. But the House of Commons seems to have thought the first and second conditions inconsistent with each other, and it says that the period of three months does not harmonise with the one month after the meeting of Parliament, which meeting may take place immediately after the issue of the order contem plated by the clause. That misconstruction existed in this house, and I regret that words were not inserted to make the meaning clearer ; but the grounds stated f r allowing an interval of three months after the declaration of hostilities were really such as it would be impossible for the House of Commons to resist or overlook. These grounds were that the or ders might be sent out to India—and recollect it is with India you are dealing for the commence ment of hostilities. They could not be received within a month in that country, and after their receipt circum stances might possibly arise which would prevent the Governor-General, either from reasons of discretion or actual inability, from carrying those orders into effect. He might send home word, "It is quite clear we shall have to engage in warlike operations, but it is necessary to tempori-e ; I have not at command sufficient military resources, and I shall not be prepared to execute your orders within the next two months." In the meantime, however, before it was possible to send back this answer to this country—nay, even before the order itself could reach India—the clause as it first stood required the fact that such an order had been issued to be promulgated and laid before Parliament. The consequence of that would be that the next mail would take out to India no as that directions had been given to commence hoseill ties, and every country against which such hostilities bad been ordered would have ample notice of your intention to make war upon them, although your own Governor- General mighthave told you that fortwo or three months he would not be prepared to act upon your instructions. ' Thus, you would be actually giving your enemy, or rather your intended enemy, full warning of wbat you were going to do, while at the same time your own instru ments had not the means of giving immediate effect to your directions. No one, therefore, can, I think, doubt the propriety of the alteration made by your hardships to cause the fact of such an order having been sent out to be announced to Pariament not within one month, but within three issonths after its issue, so as to afford time for communicating with India, and learning whether or not theto would be any difficulty in promulgating the order. Your lordships, as I have already said, have also inserted in thie clause words providing that if such orders were suspended or revoked, th• n it would be unneces sary to lay them before Parlatment at all. Clearly, if 'hey are not to be acted upon, it would be unwise to in• form the pers .ns with whom you have to deal that you ever intended to declare war against them. The clause then enacts hat these orders shall be communicated to Parliament, if it is then sitting, within three months. This wiil give the Government three menthe' grace, at the expiration of which they will be bound to lay the order-, they have issued bet ;re Parliament. If, however, after that interval has elapsed Parliament should not be sitting, then the Government wal have had the advan tage of the three months already given them for the issue and promulgation of the order, and as soon as the Legislature re-assembles, or within one month alter its re-as-embliog, it will be incumbent on them to com municate to it the fact that the hostilities had been ordered. I propose that the clause shad provide 'het the order shall be communicated to both Houses of Par• liaisient within three months after the sending of such order if Parliament is sitting, and if Parliament is not sitting at the end of such three months, then within one month next after the meeting of Parliament. That, I think, would carry out what were your lordship; a ten tione. (Hear, hear.) It removes the obvious miscon etruction which the House of Commons has pot upon the clause. With that alteration I think they would be of opinion that the clause is reasonable and just. I shell, therefore, my lords, propose, with regard to clause 54, that we do insist upon your lordships' amendments as altered by the amendment which I prepese to insert in it. My lords, these are all the objections which the House of Cainmene have made to the amendments made by your lordships in the India Bill, and I thought it more convenient that I should make a general state ment with regard to them rather than make a separate statement on each. My prop nation, therefore, is not to insist upon your amendments with regard to the first aed second of these amendments, and also with regard to the third, so far as it relates to the civil service, but to insist upon your lordships' amendment, and to submit it again to the further and more rate consideration of the House of Commons with re gard to cadetships iu the scientific branches of the mili tary service ; and also to insist upon your lordships' amendment with another amendment ( f a clause which I cannot but think has been mi-apprehended and mis understood by the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) Earl GRANVILLE—I do not rise for the purpose of objecting to the course proposed by the noble earl. In the first place, I entirely agree to the very judicious course which, under the present circumstances, he has proposed that we shall take ; and in the second place, the session is so nearly at an end that I agree with the noble earl it would be perfectly idle to insist upon all our amendments. At the same time I cannot help ad vetting to the strange conduct of the Government with regard to this bill. The noble earl, by the fact of his beihg Prime Minister and leader of this house, by the exercise of that influence which a Government always exercises at the end of a session, is virtually master of the proceedings of this house, and in that capacity I think he is necessarily bound to watch over the dignity and propriety of the proceedings of this house. I do not wish to wandei from the question before the house, but to illustrate my meaning I roust allude to another question, which was very recently discussed by this house—l allude to the Jewish question. In that case we followed implicitly what was laid down by the noble earl as the most proper course to be adopted. We on this side of the houie remonstrated strongly against certain proceedings connected with the Jewish question as likely to throw ridicule and a certain amount of discredit on this house. As soon as the pro,. ceedings were closed here public opinion certainly w as expressed in every possible way in the sense that we expected. Of course there was no help for that. But when the inatteiecame before the House of Commons we found in the report of their pro ceedings that every side of the house agreed in the ob jection we had made, and I think this house, as a body, had a right to expect that some of the members of that Government which induced us to take the course we did should have vindicated that course in some manner, instead of which two of the noble earl's colleagues in th 3 other house remained perfectly silent, and one of the Secretaries of State expressed his regret that, the House of Lords having taken a course which they thought ' wrong, did not, at least, act in a straightforward manner. With regard to that clause to which the third amend ment refers, and which relates to competitive examina tion, an amendment was proposed to which I strongly objected. The noble earl said the House of Commons bad adopted on that sutject a course which he did not think judicious. But it was not a private member of the House of Commons who proposed that course. That clause was proposed by one of the members of her Ma. jesty's Government, the President of the Board of Con trol, and, therefore, by one who was bound to be in accord with the opinions of the Government on the sub ject. When the amendment was proposed I objected strongly, on the first blush, that it was an amendment which appeared to me to take away the whole security which was thought necessary by the President of the Board of Control. But I was met by what ap peared to me a very fair argument a' the time— that while practically it would not interfere with open competition as le admission to the civil service it would at the same time save a great constitutional principle and prevent an encroachmeet on the prerogative of the Crown. And to that this house yielded. I strongly objected to the amendment with regard to the re-constitution of what will practically be a secret committee ; but I felt that the noble earl's authori y on the opposite side was strongly in fa vour of the amendment, and I urged every reason which appeared to me why it was most desirable not to fetter the Secretary of State. The amendment, however, being proposed by the noble earl, was naturally carried. Now, if this amendment was worth anything, it was to have been expected that her Majesty's Government wculd have made some effort to complete that which was the work of the Prime Minister. But not a bit of it. If I am to believe the reports of the proceedings of the other House the President of the. Board of Control voted against this amendment, and stated that in his opinion the amend ment was perfectly indefensible. (Hear, hear ) Well, then, I come to the nest clause. What the House of C31110:10119 have done with regard to it, I think, rather bears me out in what I took the liberty of pointing out on each successive clause connected with p a tronage — teat whereas a great outcry was raised against the late Government as to the imaginary amount of patronage ehieh they were about to tramfer to themselves, every single change that has taken place under the direction of her Majesty's present Government has been to increase the patronage conferred upon the Secretary of State ; and; therefore, j am not surprised that the House of Commons should have insisted on some check being re tained upon the exercise of patronage. If your lord ships had adopted the course which we on this side of the House suggested, and which was so strongly sup ported by the noble earl the late President of the Board of Control, you would not now be obliged to abandon your amendment as to the nomination of the members of the Councils or the Governor-General and Governors respectively. I think the House has some reason to com plain that that confident communication which they should for their own sake have maintained has not, at . all events, been maintained between the members of the Government sitting in each House in order to keep up that ceneistency between the proceedings of the two Melees which, I think, is most importan'• to the dignity and honour of both Houses of Parliament. With respect to the amendment proposed by the noble earl as to competitive exaininati n, I must say that I feel some pride that the noble earl, after having opposed my amendment, should now be the person to oppose one portion of the amendment of the House of C immons. With regard to the last amendments, I can only say I feel very grateful to the noble earl for having so very clearly stated the reasons why we during two stages of the bill pressed upon him those alterations, and which I am glad to say, except with a verbal amendment, he in tends now to insist upon. I have stated why we on this side of the house think we have good reason to complain of the condact of the Government with respect to this bill, but at the same time it is far from my intention to object to the course proposed by the noble earl. Lord CAMPBELL was perfectly astonished at the passionate affectien which the House of Commove had recently shown for competitive examination. They had actually gone wild on that subj rot. (Laughter.) Com petitive examination might most usefully be applied to the House of Commons itself. (Renewed laughter ) He thought discriminating examination was far preferable to competitive examination. The former system was applied even to the judges of the supreme court of justice in Scotland. He should propose a sort of dis criminating examination for the House of Ceenmons ; and, instead of hon. members in that house pushing their passion for competitive examination to such an extrava gant degree as even to interfere with the prerogative of the Crown in the appointment to military commands, he recommended that they should direct their minds to con sidering whether a discriminating examination in their own cases might not be desirable. (Hear, and a laugh.) The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH —Although I per ceive with the greatest possible concern and regret the amendments which have been made by the House of Commons, I do not feel disposed to comment upon what took place in that house with respect to them. I admit that on all great questions the largest amount of ability is displayed by the gentlemen who lead the debates in that house, and, although I most deeply regret the opi nion which appears to be generally entertained there with respect to competitive examinations, yet I should be sorry . to attribute to the members of the other house any but the most conscientious convictions of duty in adhering to their opinion. I shall nut trouble your lord ships with any general observations, but shall proceed at once to the questions at issue. If it be true, as the House of Commons state, with regard to the fir s t point, that it is impossible to defend the amendment which your lordships have made, I can only regret that the Hearse of Commons did not give better reasons for in sisting on the bill as it stood when they sent it up to your lordships ; for I find that they declare, in the first place, that the submitting of the secret despatches to two members of the Council would tend to divide the responsibility of the Minister. My lords, it could no by possibility have that effect, because the members of the secret o memittee are constituted only for the purpose of inspecting the secret despatches, and they would have ne power of objecting to those despatches or of pre venting their being sent They would have no other power, in fact, than that of offering in a copious and confidential manner their opinions with respect to them if they happened to differ from the Minister. I will give you an example, the application of which I am sure you will admit. The other day I wrote a de , patch with regard to Lord Canning's proclama tion. That despatch was in the hands of the secret committee for six days. No objection was takes to ia and no representation was made to me on the subject ; leu, if I had 'stated that as a reason for my responsi bility being considered to be divided—if I had endea voured to shelter myself under the circumstance of that despatch having been sumitted to the Secret Committee, I don't know what the result of such an excuse might have had with your lordships, but I know that I should leave been considered generally to have acted in a spirit of poltroonery. Jt would have been said that I had not the slightest ground to stand upon, that my responsibility was complete, and that the circumstance of the despatch having been submitted to the Secret Committee in no way relieved me of that responsibility. (Hear.) It is said that the hill will create a new Secret Cemnaittee, which, under the new form of government will not be necessary. But. my lords, the real change effected by this bil in the practical government of India is not great. With the ex ception of the use of the Queen's name, which I deem very valuable, and the nomination by the Crown of the Gevernor-General and Governors, there. is no great prac tical alteration in the mode of governing India, especially since it has been determined to continue in the Council half of the existing Court. How, then, can it be said that the slight change which has taken place affords any reason for discontinuing the Secret Committee ? Ia my opinion, there is no change; however great, in the go vernment of India which could have dispensed with the necessity for submitting the secret despatches to some second mind. This is the real value of the committee. It is advisable in the course of human nature for any man, be he whom he may, to submit everything of great importance that he writes to some one other mind. Be that mind an inferior mind, let the person possessing it have no power whatever over h•s proceedings, still there is an advantage in being compelled so to communicate; and that advantage I desire to maintain. (Freer.) Re member, my lords, that this provision for a Secret Com mittee was inserted in the original law for the govern ment of India by no common men; but that it was put there by Mr. Pitt and the first Mr. Dundee, two of the ablest men who ever swayed the councils of this country. Be assured that they did not do it without good reason. The President of the Board of Control had then, as now, colleagues to whom he could refer ; but it was thought advisable that persons connected with India, and who could understand the real bearings of the case, shouli at all times have despatches of importance sub mitted to them, and should have the power of expressing an opinion with regard to them. These were my rea sons for desiring the introduction of that amendment. However, I agree with my noble friend that it is not of so muoh importance as that it would be desirable to risk the passing of this measure by insisting upon it in oppo sition to the opinion of the other house. But then comes another amendment of far greater importance, which, in reality, goes to the whole constitution of the Indian government, and I confess that it is with very great regret that I find that my noble friend does not intend to insist upon it. The House of Common. say that it le undesirable to increase the patronage of the Minister without providing a check upon its exercise ; but in this bill they have greatly increased the patronage of the Minister without any check whatever. They have given him the power of creating the Governor-General, the Governors, and the members of the Council also. They have given him a great increase of patronage in the disposition of the establishment of the India House and likewise in the nomination to cadetships, without ' any check at all. But that on which I insisted is not patronage. Appointments to the Council in India are not appointments which a Government would e er ven ture to look on in the lignt of patronage. They will only he made in the exertese of the highest function of the ' executive Government—that of providing the very best persons to assist in carrying on the most impor• cant branches of administration in India. No Go vernment would ever venture in the way of a job, upon appointments of that dcHoription. But this I know, that it is most desirable that there should not be a double government ;n India. Under the bill as it stands now the Government name the Governor-General, while tee Council will name the councillors of the Governor- General. The Council may take total.y different views with respect to the most important matters from those taken by the Governor-General. Beaten here, by the power of the Secretary of State in the Council, they may, through their appointments to the Council in India, very materially affect the conduct of public affairs ; for, recollect that the Governor-General, though he has the power of overruling his Council in extreme cases affecting the highest interests and safety of the State, has cot the power which is given to the Secretary of State by this bill of overruling his Council on all occasions. It is only in extreme cases that he can do so, and there might be in his Council gentlemen opposed to the Governer- General who might reduce h:s authority to contempt by c mtinually thwarting him ; yet the power of appoint ing those gentlemen you leave to the Council here. I think this a most material error. I hen always deemed it necessary that all persons in India should look to the head of the Government alone, or, if not to him, to the head of the Government here. What would be the posi tion of my noble friend near me if the principle proposed to be applied to the Governor-General were carried out in my noble friend's caee—and if he, placed by favour of her Majesty's confidence in the position of First Mi nister of the Crown, were to have all his colleagues chosen by the noble lords who now sit opposite? (" Hear, hear," and a laueh.) Yet that is exactly the position in which you place the Governor-General of India, who has to conduct matters as important as those which fall to the lot of my noble friend. I think, therefore, that this is a most serious error in the constitution of the new Government of India, and that it perpetuates all the vices of the old administration. You re-appoint to the Council half of the existing Court of Directors, with all their traditional policy, and you enable them to appoint the councillors of the Governor-General although it is notorious that according to their old prjudices every Governor-General is regarded as an enemy un less he adopts a course of subserviency to the Court. cannot agree, therefore, with the Commons in their objection to this stains. - It would he idle to think of dividing the house upon the subject, but I cannot give my assent to it because I believe that it will lead to great evils. Then comes a very important question with re spect to which my noble friend concedes one-half, and insists upon his own amendment as to the other half. When he makes a distinction between the military and civil services I think he has good ground to stand upon, There is a material difference between them. When com petitive examination was first established for the Civil Service, I admitted that there was considerable advan tage in disconnecting the Civil Service from the Court of Directors, and that advantage still will continue to extet to a certain extent although the Court will bays become a Council. Feeling, therefore, that a great political as well as social revolution is thereby accomplished in India, I do not object to my noble friend's determina tion not to insist un his amendment on this point, but I rejoice that he insists upon it in the other. My lords, I cannot but regret that the House of Commons has fallen into what appears to me a dangerous error with respect to open competitive examination as the only road by which for the future ethic:he-eon is to be obtained into the . military service of India. (Hear.) I am quite sure that there is not only in the House of Commons, but also out of doors, a great error as to the classes which are to be benefited and injured by this great innovation. The stablishmtnt of competitive examination does not in the smallest degree affect your lordships' house—it does not affect your relatives or connections, nor the connections of the great landed gentry of the country, I regret to say that members of your lordships' house and of the other h-use and the first gentry in the country, have net erelesvour , d—except in very rare_ ca e s— o obtain fur their sons situations in the service of the Indian Ge-- verc went. I regret it oeeply, because I know it is by far the best field which any man can have fur the exercise of his abili , iee, and it aft )rds the highest rewards for the display of the hiehe-t virtues. I regret that this house has not participated in the glory which has been rsfiscted by late events on the servants of the Indian Goverernent. But I desire, my lords, to retain these ap pointments in the class which has hitherto held them. That class is the class of educated gentlemen which oc cupies the centre of society, which extends on the one side to the confines of the class whi , h lives by buying and selling, and on the other to the class of which your lord so.ips are members—persons who have the means of pro vi ling for their sons otherwise than by professions of a lucrative description, of doing that for them which I think is the greatest misfortune than can befall any man —enabling them to live in idleness. (Hear.) This class embraces clergymen, country gentlemen ofsmall incomes, lawyers and all the learned professions, officers in the army and navy, and all that great class of persons hay ieg a mediocrity of fortune, but of the highest and most cultivated ihtsllect. It is from that class which it is in tended by this clause to take away these appointments: In sanctioning this principle Parliament. has introduced propet4 qualification for eppointments in the public service, because there is no doubt that it is by paying hi ,4111 y those who cram candidates for these appointments that they will be obtained. It is only by the expenditure of large sums in this way that it will be possible for the future to enter the service, and the gentlemen who have hitherto obtained appointments have not the means of metering this expenditure. But the education obtained in these cramming colleges is not the highest species of education—that which is obtained at home by the exam ple and conversation of good parents is by far the highest. You cannot compare for a moment the education which the tms of clergymen and officers get with the education obta•ned by the sons of rich grocers or linendrapers, who will be successful in these competitive examina tions. Depend upon it this is a great and most in. jurious social revolution. I cannot view it in any other light. I look upon it as fraught with the greatest danger, and I do trust that the House of Commons, on reconsidering its present opinion, will be induced to acquiesce in this amendment. I rejoice that for the present my noble friend will insist upon the amendment which he made in committee, though that amendment is not altogether sati.factory to me., I vote against the whole clause. I desire to maintain the Indian army as it is, to draw it altogether from the same sources, which are perennial founts of everything that is noble, and everything tba , is virtuous. (Hear, hear.) Can we desire to have men in the public service superior to those who have he derived from that source? (Rear, hear.) It is now, to ), when the scientific branches of these services have in the highest degree distin guished themselves and performed the greatest public service, that we are to change altogether the system by which appointments are made, to deprive them of the hope of being followed in the same noble career by their cons, to destroy their prospects of being able to provide for their families, and not only thus to i jure them, hut, as they must understand it, to ii.ffict on them a great offence. These, my lords, have always been my opinions, and it is impossible for me to refrain from ex pressing them. (Rear, hear.) Their lordships then resolved not to insist on their amendments on clauses 27, 28, 29 30. and 32 ; but to 'chat on their amendment on clause 34 (relating to the sdmiesien to the scientific branche,.). 0o consideration of th e C ommons ' reasons f or dis agreeing with their lordships' ameriUme .ts on the Turn p ke Trusts Arrangement Bill, and tl,e Vaccination (Ire land) Biel, it wins resolved not to insist upon the amend mevtg. The Art-Unions' Indemnity Bill was read a third time and passed. Tile R;formatory Scho li (Ireland) Bill was read a thirl tiwe. The rer,rt of amendments on the Metropolitan Local Nlanagernent Bill was received, The Draughts on Hankers Act Amendment Bill was read a third time and passed. On bringing up the report, without amendments, on the Civil Bilis, &c. (Ireland), Act Awenduient Bitl, a , Lort di,cu:sion took place, but ultimately the amend a,ents were agrH.d to, and the report was received. NEW WRITS BILL. _ This bill was read a third time and paned, with two amendm , nti proposed by 1,-,rd EVERSLET. VACANT SPACE AT ST. PAUL'S. The Earl of FIARRINGTON, who had a notice on the paper to put a question to the Government respect ing tit, plot of Lr. uud on the east. side of St. Paul's, winch was adverti,ed to be butt on, said he would postpone his que-tion in the meantime, when The Earl of DERBY Paid it was no use putting any i-uch question, as the Government had no infor mation whatever on the sut.j.ct. (A laugh.) PASSING TOLLS. Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY, having presented a petition from merchants, shipowners, &c., of South Shields, relating to passing tolls and local dues, asked whether it was the intention of the Government to intro duce any measure upon the subject during next session I Tae Earl of DONOUGH MORE, without pledging himself upon the subject, hrped to be able to introduce such a measure in the ensuing session of Parliament. Their lordships then adjourned. JULY 30, Country Markets MANCHESTER—JuLT 29. Our market this morning was well attendO, and more firmness prevailed. Wheat, both English and foreign, sold to a fair extent, at about the extreme rates of last week. Flour not so much in request, but recovered the decline during the week. Oats brought full prices, whilst oatmeal must be quoted 6d to is per load dearer for choice qualities. Other articles unchanged. BIRMINGHAM—JULY 29. At the market to-d there was a full supply of wheat and on the sales made the turn in price was in favour of the buyer. Barley 6d cheaper. Oats scarce, only takes in retail. Beans and peas quite as dear, but less in quest. BOSTON-JULY 28 The market to-day opened with a iiberal supply of wheal , at about la 4 week's rates. Little business has beet done. In -pring corn little change; beans and peas sots at an advance of 3s to 4s per qr. Prices :—Wheat, rod, 38e Od to 44s Od; new, to white, 42s uhi to 46s Od . extra, 48s. Barley, 28s Od to 3s o Od. Oat. 21 s to 30s. Peas, 40 to 42s Od. Beans, 410 Od to 50s Od per qr. NEWARK—JULY 28. At our Corn Exchanga to-day there was a good attend; ante of farmers and a large show of grain, which mica at late rates. B , ans 3s to 4s per qr. dearer. samples of new what and oats wero exhibited. Wheat, white 41s to 475, red 42s to 445; barley, maltix►i 33s to 348, grinding 3;s to 345; oats, rzst. 334 to 38s, J.Lst , 26s to 28s ; beaus, 48s to 50s ; malt, 6,:s to 72s ; peas, 40. to 42s ; tares, —s to —s per qr. LOUTH—JULY 28. A moderato supply of English wheat, which met a dull sale at last week's rates. Oats and other articles as before. Wheat, red, 39s to 42s ; mixed, —s ; white, 475; barley 32s to 36s ; oat, 21s to 27s ; beans, 40s to 445. GLASGOW—JULY 28. A fair supply of wheat, but the trade was dull, at about the last week's rates. Little business done. Spring corn firm. EDINBURGH GRAIN—JULY 28. A large supply of grain to-day. Sales heavy for all sorts, ana prices a shade high er . Wheat, on the top, Os 6d down, and on the averse Os 6d up. Barley, 3s Od up on the top, and is up on the average. Oats on the top were Os 3d dower and on tho average 01 Id down. Beans on the toP 2s Od up, and on the average is 7d up. AVERAGES PER IMPERIAL QUARTER. Wheat £2 2 8 6-12th. Do. new -12ths. Barley 1 910 4-12ths. • Oats Beans .. -12ths. Total Supply and Sales. Wheat 1320 qrs sold 875 qrs Barley 4BO qrs sold 27S cgs : Oats 1325 qrs sold 978 qrs. Beans B3 qrs sold 81. qrs [ADVERTISEMENT.]—Rheumatism and its Cure.-11ollowa7'll Ointment and Pills —These extraordinary medicines are daily revealing their wonderful properties. Mr. Ta'lor, druggist" of Rothesay, writing, May 4, 1858, says :—" I bear of nu merous cures being effected by the use of your medicines-- one of which I will mention. It is of a labouring man, who was so ill with rheumatism, that he could not move either his arms or his legs without the most excruciating pain, and wit! was completely cured by the use of your Pills and Ointmentf: These medicines also will cure lumbago, wens, tumours stir joints, contracti ,ns, enlargements, and glandular swellings. —S 41 by all medicine vendors throughout the world, and at Professor Holloway's Establishment, 244, Strand, London. BIRTHS. BOTTEN—On the 27th inst., at 22, Clatendon-gardesh Maida-hill, the wife of Charles Botten, jun., Esq., of * son. LEMON—On the 28th inst., at Blackheath, Mn.s W. G. Lemon, of a son. PENNINGTON—On the 27th inst., the wife of John rely nington, Esq., of Alderley Edge, of a aon. MARRIAGES, HIGGINSON—FITZPAIRICK —On the 29th inst., at: St' George's, Hanover-square, Lieut.-Colonel Higginsonr Grenadier Guards, only son of Lieut.-General and - Lad' Frances Higginson, to Florence, daughter of the Righ o Hon. J. W. Fitzpatrick. MA NBY—WILARD —On the 2'th inst., at St. James's► Westbourne-terrace, Charles Manby, Esq., C.E., F.R.S./ to Harriet Hood, eldest daughter of the late Niolioloo Wilard, Esq., the Greys, Eastbourne, Sussex. DEATHS. BEST —On the 25th inst., at Thetford, Henry Beat, Bo cl.l ag d 85. BRIDGe —On the 29th inst., at 36, St. George's-rOati i, Southwark, Captain Thomas Bridge, formerly of WO' mid], aged 86. . • CLARK—On the 2Sth inst., John Clark, Esq., of tLus Sessions-h,use, and S ou th Hackney. LINDSAY—At Haigh Hall, the infant danghterof the 110 13 ' Mts. Charles Lindsay, aged seven weeks. PERCEVAL—On the 26th inst., at Ca2verton Rectal / 13ucks, the Ho n . and Rev. C. O. Perceval, aged 61. RIDEAL On the 27th inst., at 2, Sidney-place, Brixt‘e! hill, Joseph Ride,tl, Esq., formerly of 143, Union-titre." Southwark, aged 64. LONDON: Printed ana Published by LIED° Y U of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Mice. 14 ,t, 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in *0_00 1 0" of Iticitllowa, Fritiay e July 30, 1808. 111 1 1") R MAR . gi 14e113V0 CAJ ° , 4 ll iti ..ohc an the JULY t , Stly h ighest Th e a direettv rashi oni excelleia AL Arr at inm ce sh ort ; eitCl; ntirtvall .43 , - Ent Xo ee; lte-ap Of GENT it ee M ~, ] °Ms 0 17.13 Assure be ing d ............ Ti '7, , T., bavie Com e th e t Trav t 41.1a1e • Ins dente, With ?roep the Cl ...... P t, St