The Sun. — London, England, 1859-07-09 00:00:00

it would be unadvisable for the Government, and very un wise for any member of the house to enter into discussion on this subject. (Hear.) Our disposition must be the same as that of the late Government, viz., to take any opportu nity afforded us of " being the medium of restoring peace." (Hear, hear.) We may not take the same view in regard to what would be the most favourable time for restoring peace ; but with regard to the object we are entirely agreed with them. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman, surely very unnecessarily, referred to a despatch of mine written some years ago, and communicated to the Court of Russia. The fact, with regard to that despatch, was that the late Emperor of Russia thought it advisable that there should be a concert between this country and Rus sia with regard to the future state of Turkey, supposing the Government of the Sultan to be destroyed. We did not think fit to enter into any such concert, and the Empe ror of Russia was told so in a despatch that was afterwards in substance reported to the Russian Minister at this Court. The Emperor of Russia accordingly wholly abandoned that proposition, and, therefore, how anybody, even in the ex treme of factious misrepresentation, can say that that course of conduct on my part had anything to do with the break ing out of the war with Russia, I cannot understand. (Hear.) I now come to the question that has been put to me with regard to Mexico. Mexico, most unfortunately, has been divided into two envious parties, both of whom have been guilty of many outrages on British subjects. It ap pears that the British Minister is considered favourable to one aide, and that the Minister of the United States is con sidered favourable to another side ; but whatever may be the troth of these r epresentations it is undoubtedly true that both from the one side and from the other, both from the Central party and the Constitutional party, British subjects have suffered great outrages. Their property has been taken from them, and in certain cases where it has not been given up they have been brought to be executed, and in one instance it required the greatest efforts on the part of the British Minister to save the life of a proposed victim. (Hear.) As to the outrages that occurred in the first instance the late Government employed a squadron to procure redress, and this house is aware of what followed. I can only say that Captain Dunlop did his duty with great seal and great discretion. But, unfortunately, since the arrangements then made, there is a fresh arrear of outrages to be complained of, and the serious question to be consi dered is, what should be done to protect British subjects against them. Undoubtedly it is the duty of the Govern ment to protect them, and I may say that no effort will be spared to effect that object. (Hear.) With regard to Mr. Otway, he has lately received leave of absence, in order that he may come to this country and make his defence against the charges which have been brought against him. He himself considers those charges totally unfounded, but I regret to say that he has not entered so much into particulars as to enable me to lay papers on the table which will show that he is in the right and the British merchants in the wrong. . . . .. In conclusion. I have only to repeat that for the protection of British property as much will be done as can possibly be done in the circumstances. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BOWYER remarked that the statement of the noble lord, that it was the duty of the Government to give such advice to the German Powers as might prevent the theatre of war from being extended, was a very specious and plau sible expression. In one sense everybody would consent to it, but it was difficult to see to what extent the meaning of that expression might not be carried. Lord J. RUSSELL—I did not say that advice had been given to the German Powers ; what I said wrs that we had made a communication to the Court of Prussia. Mr. BOWYER understood that the despatch in question stated the view which the Government took of the course which the German Powers ought to pursue. Now, Ger many was not an island like England, and its different States were placed in a different position from that which we occupied. The German Powers had seen with consi derable alarm a revolutionary war carried on by France in conjunction with Piedmont—a war fostered by appeals to nationalities and by attempts to stir up the subjects of in dependent States, with which neither France nor Sardinia had any cause of quarrel, to revolt against their Sovereigns. He was favouroble to the principle of Italian nationality, having always felt that the presence of Austria in Italy was a great difficulty; but when he saw that the war was one of avowed and open conquest, and that it was carried on in a manner quite new in the modern history of Europe, he did not wonder at the anxiety and alarm felt by Germany at the progress of the enormous and apparently irresistible army of France. Instead of saying, "Wait a little, 'gentlemen; your turn to be devoured by France will come in due time," he thought the Government would act wisely in leaving the Germans to mind their own business. They understood very well what their own interests required of them, and we, who occupied geographically an isolated and therefore compara tively safe position, ought not to use our influence in pre venting the German Powers from taking that course which might appear to them expedient for the purpose of putting some check upon the aggressive and conquering policy of France. He believed that any attempt to invade England would be defeated in the most effectual manner, but he did not feel as confident as many persons that our turn might not come ; on the contrary, he was persuaded that Austria had been, to a great extent, fighting the battle of England as well as her own. (Cries of " Oh," and " Question.") He looked with hope at the new state of things which had been brought about in Italy by the success of France— (" hear, hear," and a laugh)—but he warned the Govern ment, when they talked about sympathy with France, to remember that when France had overcome Austria and waged a successful war—probably next year—against Ger many, the time might come when we should have to stand upon our defence, because France had to gratify her spirit a hostility towa rds England, and, above all, to wipe out the recollection of Waterloo. (Cries of "Oh I") Mr. LYALL asked the Secretary of State for War whe ther the Government had had under their consideration Bessemer's economical process of mar ufacturing steel, and whether there was the intention of substituting that metal for iron to any extent in the manufacture of guns for the artillery and ordnance. Mr. S. HERBERT replied that a proposal had been made to Mr. Bessemer to the effect that if he would send in a block of iron from which a gun could be constructed, the experiment should be made ; but the Government had de clined to become ironmasters, or to adopt a process which had not been thoroughly tested. If the invention combined economy with efficiency, there were, no doubt, plenty of capitalists who would take it up; but the Government were unwilling to incur the expense of experiments of which, if they failed, the whole loss would fall upon the country, while, if they succeeded, the gain would be reaped by Mr. Bessemer alone. Mr. DISRAELI—I do not wish to revive the discussion which seemed to be terminated by the observations of the noble lord the Foreign Secretary, for I am sure that the noble lord having stated that the correspondence with Prussia is still going on the house will not press for its pro duction, but at the same time I am bound to state that the description which the noble lord has given us of his own despatch is one of a somewhat alarming character. (Hear, hear.) Giving advice is interference, and if you profesi a policy of non-intervention and at the same time indulge in giving advice to foreign Powers you will eventually find yourselves involved in engagements which you never con templated. (Hear.) The noble lord has quoted a despatch of Lord Malmesbury, which fairly described the general policy of the late Government, showing that they were in favour of a strict and impartial neutrality, but at the same time that they felt they were free to avail themselves of any favourable opportunity to mediate in the interests of peace. The noble lord gives his adhesion to a principle which I belive no gentleman will be inclined to impugn. But there is in the despatches of Lord Malmesbury another para graph much more germane to the matter which has been brought under our notice this evening than the very general passage to which the noble lord has referred in vindication of the course pursued by the present Govern ment. In a despatch of Lord Malmesbury to Sir James Hudson, _dated the 20th of May, I find the following sen tence : "Her Majesty's Government have done their utmost, within the bounds of friendly representation, to c a l m th e exc it emen t prevailing in Germany, but they have not felt ' themselves called upon or authorised to dissuade the Ger man States from taking such measures as those States con sidered to be necessary for the maintenance of their several Interests ; for they could not assume the responsibility of even morally guaranteeing them against the eventuahties of the Italian war!' Now, if you sanction a policy which gives advice to neutral Powers, and in consequence of that advice those Powers take a particular course which may prove to them a disas trous one, you will find that you are involved in what is very happily and accurately called at least a moral gua rantee as the consequences of your advice. (Hear, hear.) I think, therefore, the H ouse o f C om mons will do well not to favour the advice which the noble lord seems anxious to give to those eowers at Present occupying, like ourselves, the position of neutral States. (H ear .) I felt it my duty to call attention to the difference between the quotation made by the noble lord and the quotation which I have read, Principle laid down in the and which appears to me of such importance that the hcuse ought jealously to watch over its observance. (Hoan) Lord J. RUSSELL —I do not wish to enter again into this discussion, but I think it right to say that the right hon. gentleman has taken far from a correct view of the course which her Majesty's Government hav e pursued. The motion for adjournment was then agreed to. SUPPLY. TIIE DEFENCES OF THE HUMBER. On the order of the day for going into committee of supply, Lord 110THAII, in asking the Secretary for War his in tention respecting the defences of the Humber, said that in 1854 a report was mad e t o t h e M as t er -General of the Ordnance by a committee of officers appointed to inquire into that subject. These officers, a colonel of artillery, a colonel of engineers, and a captain in the navy, after ex amining the locality, made c er t a i n recommendations, into which, for an obvious reason, he would net enter, but he might state that few of them had been carried into effect. Whatever was desirable in 1854 for strengthening the de fences of this river was not less desirable now, and he was anxious to know, therefore, whether his right hon. friend intended to carry out the recommendations of the repori in question. M r . S. HERBERT said that in 1858 a further in quiry was made into this subject, owing to the impractica bility o f carrying into effect one part of the proposals made by the committee of 1851. At one time, he believed, it had ' been r'oposed to give an armament to the citadel of Hull. That; however, would have been an ineffectual protection, and the plan was abandoned. A battery carrying six guns was, ho wever, now completed on the right bank of the river. His pre lecessor in office (Gen. Peel) had asked for a consi derable sum for the defence of commercial ports, and if a portion of that vote could be applied in strengthening the defences of the Humber, it should certainly be so a pp lied. a (Hear.) U, however, large number of guns was to be mounted tor the defence of mercantile ports, he thought the . inhabitants of those places should at least contribute the men to work those guns—(hear, hear) —and he hoped the noble lard would consider this a fair bargain. (Hear, hear.) Gen. PEEL thought this would be a good opportunity for consi derir,ag the suggestion he had made the other even ing respecting our coast defences. £200,000 was to be ex pended i n defending commercial harbours, and of this £12,600 s; ma to be voted each year, ge. that 24 years would tin be r( squired to complete these fortifications. Now, it would be far better to decide what fortifications were abso lutely necessary, and to complete them at once, raising the money, if requisite, and spreading the repayment over a certain number of years. (Hear, hear.) OUR FOREIGN POLICY. Lord J. RUSSELL—A question of some importance has been raised with regard to the responsibility which the Go vernment is said to have incurred in giving advice to foreign Governments; and it has been said not only that we ought not to advise other States to refrain from increasing their armaments—the fact being that we have given no advice of the kind—but that we ought not to counsel those States to remain at peace, and not to extend the ravages of war. Now, I find the following advice given by Lord Malmes bury to the Confederation. It is contained in a despatch to Sir A. Male; dated May 1, 1859 : " I have received your telegram of this day, by which it appears that a motion will probably be made to -morrow in the Diet, calling upon the Confederation, without any ca sus faderi4, to make common cause with Austria. Her Majesty's Government trust, however, that the answer which I immediately returned to you by telegraph may have arrived in time to prevent any such ill-advised step on the part of the Confederation, and that the protest whicb. I have instructed you to make against its adoption, and the warning that I have desired you to give, that if Germany should at this early stage involve herself, without a treaty obligation, in the present war, she would have no assistance to expect from England, and that without such assistance her coasts would be exposed to the ravages of hostile fleets in the Baltic, will deter the Diet from adopting so preci pitate a course, which would at once extend to Europe the ravages of war, which every friend of humanity must desire to see confined, if possible, to the country in which it has broken out." (Hear.) To state, therefore, that Lord Malmesbury h ad never given advice to any foreign Power to maintain an attitude of neutrality, and not enter into war is certainly not to put a fair interpretation on the language which that noble lord has used. (Hear, hear.) Ido not think that I have employed language so strong as that which was di rected to the German Confederation requesting it not to take part in the present contest in Italy, and warning the Germon States that if they did so the coasts of the Baltic would be ravaged by a foreign Power. (Hear, hear.) Mr. DISRAELI—The advice which Lord Malmesbury give in this despatch is very frequently given by him in the course of the papers which have been laid before the house, and in none of them more strongly than in that from which I last quoted. He there says, "Her Majesty's Government strongly declaie that Germany should not be influenced in arriving at a decision then under the consideration of the Diet by any hof succour from this country." Now, that is stronger lan guage than any which the noble lord opposite has quoted; but I apprehend that the noble lord himself has written a despatch to the Court of Prussia, in which he has recommended to that Court the adoption of a certain line of policy. That hon. members will perceive is a very different thing from giving k'rtussia to understand that if she entered into war she must not expect the assist ance of England. The course which the noble lord has taken, in short, I do not conceive to be consistent with the observance of a strict and impartial neutrality; while all that Lord Malmesbury did was to impress upon Prussia the conviction that if she engaged in hostilities she must do so on her own responsibility. (Hear, hear.) Lord PALMERSTON—The despatch of Lord Malmes bury which has been quoted by my noble friend does not confine itself to an intimation to Prussia that if she went to war she must not count upon the support of England, but tells her she must reckon on something else—namely the ravage of her coasts in the Baltic. (Hear, hear.) The charge which was made against my noble friend in the early part of this discussion was that he had given advice to the Ger man Powers. He simply gave advice to Prussia, dissuading her from entering into the war which was then being waged in Italy ; but the charges made being that my noble friend had given advice to the German Powers, he proves fromthe Blue-books that Lord Malmesbury did not merely give ad vice to the Diet to abstain from war, but pointed out the course it ought to pursue, and warned it of the dangers which would arise if it pursued a different line of policy from that which the late Government had shadowed out. The late Government protested against the steps which the Diet was going to take, and I do not find fault with them for having done so. I think they acted wisely in the course which in that respect they pursued, but then it is going too far to turn round upon us because we have, although only. in a modified degree, adopted a similar policy. (Hear.) Of all men the late Ministry are the last persons who ought to have found fault with our proceedings in this parti cular. (Hear, hear.) Mr. DISRAELI—The noble lord who has just spoken seems to labour under the impression that in warning Prussia against ravages in the Baltic we were speaking of the pos sible policy of England. Mr. B. COCHRANE said that nothing could more com • pletely breathe a spirit of neutrality than the language which Lord Malmesbury had employed. (Hear, hear.) LAW OF LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND). Mr. HASSARD asked the late Attorney-Goneral for Ireland (Mr. Whiteside) what course he proposed to take with respect to the bills for the adjustment of the relations subsisting between landlord and tenant in Ireland, of which he had given notice when a law officer of the Crown. Mr. WHITESIDE said the late Government had done all in their power to bring about a settlement of the ques tion of landlord and tenant in Ireland, but now that they were no longer in a position to deal with it satisfactorily, they were fotcedto resign it into the hands of those to whom it bad been confided by a vote of that house. (Cheers.) DOCKYARD COMMISSION AND DOVER CON TRACT. Mr. A. KINGLAKE asked the Secretary to the Admi ralty when the report of the Dockyard Commission, ap • pointed by the late board, would be laid before Parliament? Sir F. BARING observed in• the supplementary esti mates a vote for the Dover contract. If the house voted the money they affirmed the new contract, and he should prefer waiting until he had seen the evidence before he ap proved it. (Hear.) Would the Government postpone the vote until the Contract Committee had reported on the sub ject of that particular contract ? Lord C. PAGET said, in answer to the hon. member for Bridgewater, that the report of the Dockyard Commission was printed, and was now before the commission for cor rection. It would then be laid before the Board of Admi ralty, and it would be for the Admiralty to lay it on the table. But, before doing so, he believed the Admiralty wished to receive some remarks upon the report which the Surveyor to the Navy desired to make. As soon as these matters were settled the report would be laid before Parlia . ment. With regard to the packet vote, he thought it very unlikely that they would reach that vote to-night, and if it were the wish of the house there would be no objection to postpone it. Sir J. PAKINGTON said he was apprehensive, from the answer of the noble lord, that some considerable delay would take place before the report of the Dockyard Com mission would be laid on the table. It was one of the three commissions which he mentioned to the house early in the session. The other reports which he had promised had been produced, and he regretted that before he left office he had been unable to see completed this very important report on the expenditure of large sums of money expended in the neighbourhood of our dockyards. If he understood the- an swer of the noble lord, the report was to be considered by the commission—[Lord C. PAGET—Corrected]—referred to the Surveyor, and then sent back to the Admiralty. He was afraid that the inference was, that a considerable time would elapse before Parliament could see the report, and he ventured to express a hope that no unnecessary delay would take place. (Hear, hear.) The motion that the Speaker leave the Chair was then agreed to. SUPPLY-NAVY ESTIMATES. The house then resolved itself into a Committee of Sup ply on the Navy Estimates. Lord C. PAGET said he rose under some difficulty to propose the consideration of the navy estimates, which were unusually large. At all times it would be somewhat diffi- cult for a gentleman who had been only a few days in office in the department of the Admiralty at once to take up the estimates of the session ; but, over and above that, it hap pened that the navy estimates on this occasion were of a character more than ordinarily complicated. Many of the items were, in fact, not only original estimates, but had ex traordinary estimates attached to them, and supplementary estimates on the top of all. The committee would, therefore, have to take into consideration three distinct classes of esti mates. _ Under these circumstances, he hoped he might claim the indulgence of the committee. (Cheers from both sides.) If he failed in giving a proper explanation of the several items, the committe, he was sure, would feel that it was not from any want of desire to give every possible information in his power, but from the simple fact of his not having yet had time to make himself thoroughly acquainted with the subject. (Hear.) Before he proceeded to plunge into the mass of figures he held in his hand, he thought the committee would be interested, and that he himself would only be doing his duty, if he endeavoured in a few words to make them acquainted with the state of our naval forces at the present time. He desired to show what force we had for the defence of our coasts if any unfortunate circumstance arose which, having regard to the honour of the country, should involve us in a war. He wished to show what we possessed in efficient ships, what we also pos sessed in reserve, and what we possessed in ships building, and for which engines were being constructed ; in a word, to show what the state of our naval property was at the present moment. He would first of all allude to the ships we had in commission. It would be for the committee to decide what constituted a proper defence of our coasts. His hon. and gallant friend the member for Southwark (Sir C. Napier), he thought, was of opinion that we ought never, under any circumstances, to be without a very strong force actually in the Channel. (" Hear hear," f rom sir C. Napier.) Others thought it was much more advantageous that what we called our home squadron should not be con fined to those narrow waters, but should cruise in the Bay of Biscay, which would afford it a larger field of operations. That was a matter which the committee would decide for themselve s ; but in his humble opinion he thought they might consider ships of war anywhere in the Mediterranean or along the coasts of Portugal as to all intents and pur poses available for the defence of our shores in the event of war. He would show what ships we had got in commission at home and in the Mediterranean, for those two forces combined formed the available force for the defence of our coasts. We had in commission at home 12 sail of the line (screw ships), and in the Mediterranean we had 14 sail of the line (screw ships) ; making a total of 26 steamships of the line in commission. Those ships on the home station —especially those that had been very lately commiasioned— were not folly manned; but whatever faults might be found with the scheme of the right hon. gentleman the member for Droitwitch in regard to the late proclamation respecting . bounty, at least if the success of a measure was to be the test of its merits, he (Lord C. Paget) was bound to say that that measure had been attended with considerable success. (Cheers.) There were ships which having been lately Put in commission, were naturally not fully maimed ; b u t , i n regard to the great squadron he was about to enumerate, it might be considered as composed of vessels fully armed and fully manned, with the exception of a few, and in all resp ec t s ready for action. He had said we had 12 screw sail of the line at home, and 14 screw sail of the line in the Mediter. ranean—making a total of 26 steamships of the line in com mision. With frigates we were not so well supplied. We had 12 screw frigates and one paddle frigate on the home station, and in the Mediterranean we had two screw frigates and one paddle frigate. Those who were acquainted with naval affairs knew there was a great number of smaller vessels, but he thought he should consult the convenience of the com mittee if he divided our naval force into three classes — namely, line-of-battle ships, frigates, and corvettes, which included sloops. Of corvet t es and sloops we had six screws at home, and 26 paddles, making 32 ; and in the Mediter ranean we had 10 screws and nine paddles, making 19. The total force at home and in the Mediterranean amounted to 106 steamships in commission, besides a force of gun boats which were constantly varying in numbers at dif ferent stations. At other stations all over the world we had about 200 ships, including sailing vessels,. employed in protecting the commerce of war various colonial dependen cies. That constituted what he would call our first line of defence, of which the more important part consisted of the 26 line-of-battle ships: What constituted our second line of defence ? At this moment we had nine block ships which were manned by coast guardsmen, and which, though not ships of the line, were nevertheless doing good service to the country by inducing sailors to join the fleet. They were cruising about our coasts ; they were vessels 'of a light draught of water, and could get into ports which many other ships could not enter ; they were, in fact, perform ing valuable services as nurseries and recruiting ships of the fleet. So much good were those coastguard ships doing in that respect that he thought without them the manning of the navy would have proceeded with much less effect. He knew his hon. and gallant friend (Sir C. Napier) held those coastguard ships in great contempt. He seemed to think that they should be put behind the fire and burnt as useless men-of-war. (" No," and a laugh.) He (Lord C. Paget), however, should be very sorry if those ships were not to be taken into consideration, for they were valuable for the purposes of coast defence. Some of them were in fair condition, and it was proposed by some alterations in the muting to render them still more useful and efficient. But in consideration of what had been often stated by the gallant Admiral, whose opinion was held in great respect at the Admiralty, it was proposed by the Board to place at the principal ports one of the large efficient line-of-battle ships as the head-quarters of the coastguard at those ports, retaining the coastguard ships there at the same time ; and arrangements were now being made for placing three of those ships as the head-quarters of three of the principal ports. It was proposed to retain the block ships, not only on account of their handiness in getting in and out of port, but because their men were acquainted with every one in the locality. They gave the crews a dinner of roast beef on Sundays, which induced a good many of their friends to come on board—(a laugh)—and there could be no doubt that the crews of these ships induced a great many men to join the fleet. In many ways these ships rendered great services, and he trusted they would not be displaced from their duties. They constituted of themselves a very respectable reserve for the fleet. But there was another re serve of a more powerful character which would be available in a few days in the event of an emergency. There were on shore at the present moment, at the Coastguard stations, 3,400 first rate seamen belonging to the Coastguard.. They had served in the Baltic and Black Sea, and were active, first-rate sailors. Attached to them was a body of coast volunteers, of whom 6,000 had been enrolled. There were differences of opinion as to the value of these men. Some declared that they would come forward to a man when they were wanted, while others predicted that they would not be forthcoming in case of an emergency He believed he might say, on the authority of an excellent officer who was once at the head of those men, and who was now at the Board of Admiralty—Commodore Eden—that you might count upon deriving from this body at any moment —as fast as the telegraph and the railway could bring them to the port to which they were ordered—the crews of twelve line-of-battle ships. (Hear, hear.) This was a powerful r eserve of seamen. Besides these sailors there were marines under instruction who would soon bo ready, and a number of boys now in training at Portsmouth; and other harbours. There were thus, first of all, the force which he had described as the first line of defence, then the nine blockships, which might be called the second line of defence, and next the force of Coastguard, every one of whom would, in Commodore Eden's opinion, bring his friend under his arm to join the fleet. The question then arose, " What ships have you got to put them into ?" Here he must pay a compliment to therighthon. gentleman (Sir J. Pakington), because he should be able to show that the construction of ships during the present year was some thing stupendous—something marvellous. (Cheers.) He would now show what ships we had got to put these men into in case of emergency. Tile Government at this moment had 10 sail of the line ready for commission. They would have three more in the autumn, and there was one under repair. So that the total of the line of-battle ships and screw ships of the line now afloat was 40. The Admiralty were build ing 10 more ships of the line ; there were six more in pro cess of conversion ; making a grand total of 56 sail of the line, of which he hoped there would be at the end of the financial year 50 sail of the line afloat. (Cheers.) He was now about to depart a little from the rules of the Admiralty. He had always observed that the Admiralty were willing enough to look at the present, but that they were always reluctant to say anything about the future. They spoke of the future in a guarded manner, as if they were afraid they should not be able to do what they said they would do. It was impossible for a Board of Admiralty to say positively what they would be able to do in the course of the current year. There were always various contingencies of repair, that could not be exactly calculated, but, as a general rule he believed that if a little more system and method were in troduced they would be able to arrive at a very fair aver age of the number of men who would be wanted for repairs, and that they would not be obliged to take, the men who wore building ships ib repair others. (Hear, hear.) This was one of the questions which the noble duke at the head of the Admiralty, and the Board of Admiralty, would take into their serious consideration. (Hear, hear.) He believed there would be no necessity to take away the hands from the building departments to the ships which he hoped the Admiralty would be able to build, and he trusted that, at the end of the financial year, there would be 50 ships of the line afloat, 37 frigates, and 140 corvettes, sloops, and gun vessels. (Hear, hear.) [An hon. member made a remark which did not reach the gallery.] Yes ; there would, he hoped, be 50 sail of the line afloat, independent of the blockships. (Hear, hear.) He had now told them what like force of men was, and what the force of ships, and these constituted the present preparations for the defence, of the country. But let no one suppose that this represented the force of England. From a return moved for by the hon. member for Penryn a few days ago it appeared that the num • ber of steamers over 1,000 tons was 109, that the total num ber of registered steamers was 1,854 and that there were 231 steam vessels in the merchant navy, any of which might be armed with Armstrong's guns, and which would prove a valuable addition to the defences of the country. (Hear, 'hear.) There was another source from which the navy of this country might be very largely increased at any moment —viz., the ships from the merchant yards. He held in his hand a return which could not but be interesting to the house. There were 10,000 shipwrights in Great Britain in addition to those employed in the Royal dockyardg. Now, the old shipwright maxim was that 1,000 shipwrigdts would build eight ships of 1,000 tons in 12 months ; consequently 10,000 men would build 80 corvettes of 1,000 tons each in 12 months, or between six and seven corvettes per month. (Hear, hear.) If we were pressed for ships there could be no doubt that, giving the shipwrights a little while, say four months to start with, they would be able to build half a dozen very large corvettes per month in the merchant yards, and the steam machinery that could be produced would be in proportion. His object was to show what the public were, he thought, anxious to know whether this country was really in a state that befitted its honour and dignity. He believed that the navy was now in a state befitting the honour of the country. (Hear, hear.) He did not say that it would not be necessary to call for an ad ditional number of men in the event of war, as at the pre sent time the number of men was within 2,000 of the votes. The fact was, that Government had not the power of commissioning any more ships at present. But his firm belief was that with regard to ships there were enough ready, or nearly ready, to justify the Government in asking for a considerable addition to the number of men. Having, to the best of his ability—(cheers)—told the house the present force of the fleet, he would now endeavour to make these very large and complicated estimates intelligible to the house. Turning to the supplementary navy esti mates, he would observe that the first four votes of the original estimates had all been taken, and therefore it was not necessary that he should advert to them at length now, but, as many gentlemen then present were not in the last Parliament, he thought it right to give some facts concern ing those items. In vote number one the original estimate was taken for 47,000 seamen, and a supplementary estimate was proposed for 8,000, m aking a total of 55,000 seamen, including the coastguard. The first item in the vote was the usual vote for wages, upon which it was not necessary to dwell. The second item was to meet the extra pay allowed to seamen gunners, £13,000. That was in accordance with a recommendation of the commission for manning the navy. (Hear.) Items three and four were to meet the increase of pay allowed to medical officers and chaplains of the navy . He, in common with every naval man, approved that act of consideration and justice towards those valuable officers ; but, he was bound to add, that he wished the right hon. member for Droitwich had extended his consideration to the paymasters, the masters, and the engineers of the navy. (Hear.) He trusted that the present Board of Admiralty would examine the position of those officers, and endeavour to place them in a fairer position. The next item was for good conduct pay and allowances to petty officers after pro motion. That was also in accordance with a recommenda tion of the commission upon manning the navy, for it was found that petty officers was in a worse position in respect to good conduct badges than they were when seamen. (Hear.) The slam was £31,000 to provide the bounty to sea men vo lunteering into the Royal navy. The question of bounty was one which involved very important considera tions. (Hear.) There could not be a doubt that in great emergencies it would be perfectly justifiable for the Govern ment to give a bounty to seamen as an inducement to enter the service. Whether that exigency had arisen it was not for him, in his subordinate position, to decide, but he did say that it was impossible to avoid considering the case of the seamen who were alrea d y in the navy. (Har.) In the army and the marines there was always a bounty upon entrance, some ti mes higher and sometimes lower ; but every man had received a bounty according to the market price. In the navy it had been different, and it became necessary for the Government to consider the case of those seamen who had not participated in the bounty. yan act passed in 1832 it was clear that the seamen who were already in the service had no legal claim to a bounty, but the Govern ment thought that a bounty was a novelty in the navy, and, moreover, that it had been a very excessive bounty ,, for with £lO in money, a suit of clo thes, and bedding—[Sir J. Pakington—" For continuous service men only"]—the whole constituted a very large reward to offer to men who, although able seamen, were undoubtedly inferior in know ledge of the duties of a ship of war to those already on board. (Hear.) The position of the latter as compared with that of their new comrades could not be considered satisfactory. (Hear.) It was right to say that there had not been a single complaint from those men. (Hear.) They had behaved in the noblest manner, and the Government had resolved to deal generously with these men. (Hear.) He was not prepared to give the details of the measure that was pro posed to be adopted, because a Privy Council had been held that day, and an Order in Council would be issued to-mor row which would state them clearly to the world. He could only say that a portion of the bounty in proportion to the rating of the men, either as an able, ordinary, or second class ordinary seaman would be granted to them. (nea r ' ) That was a boon which, he believed, would be received throughout the fleet with jay and gratitude. (Hear.) In his o pinion, the granting of a bounty was a question which should be carefully considered before it was resorted to, and he could not see what circumstance occurred during the month of April, when tlie Proclamation was issued, L th w e as custom of a con • usukaschemore like the which justified the late Government in introducing aof saysnteusms,ianespeEcmial:eyrobrythwahan stitutional country. It would, in his opinion, have been better had Parliament been consulted before so important a measure was decided upon. (Hear.) He would next read to the house a return that would be equally instructive and amusing—a return of the number of men impressed into the 'navy during the years 1811, 1812, and 1813, the last three THE f, F gUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING.; JULY 9, 1859 years of the impressment system. During the three years there were 29,405 impressed, and 27,313 deserted—(hear, and laughter)—so that the whole gain to the country was only 2,082 men. But to obtain that number there were 3,000 excellent sailors employed on shore as pressgangs, so that, in fact, the country actually lost about 1,000 men by the system of impressment. (Hear, hear.) Those figures fur nished an unanswerable argument against impressment, and he thought that system would never again be resorted to. He hoped in his remarks he had given no cause of offence to the right hon. baronet opposite ; but he must remark that almost all naval officers were of opinion that the future position of the navy had been jeopardised. He hoped no ill effects would ensue, but thought that Parlia ment ought to have been consulted, in which case the bounty system would not have been resorted to, or, at all events, not upon so large a scale. He would tell the house what had been the results of the bounty system since May 1, 1859. The total number who had entered and received bounty was 5,730 men, of whom 1,437 were able seamen. He was bound to say that that was a very fair proportion of able seamen, and, as far as success went, the plan might be said to have great merit. (Hear, hear.) The next vote was vote No. 2, which was the victualling vote for the addi tional men. In this was included the sum required for the usual purchase of provisions and victualling stores, and the sum necessary to meet the increased rations of biscuit and sugar for the seamen and marines when afloat. This latter was another excellent reeommendation of the Royal Com mission which the late Government carried out. (Hear, hear.) There was also the gratuitous issue of bedding and clothing to which he had before alluded. In vote No. 3of the supplemental estimate, the sum of £3,000 was asked for to provide for the additional employment of clerks in the Admiralty ; and ho thought that the house would readily see that the great increase of the fleet involved a great addi tional amount of correspondence and assistance. (Hear.) And now he came to vote No. 4, in the supplemental esti mate required to meet the expense of forming a volunteer reserve force of seamen, pursuant to the recommendation contained in the report of the Royal Commission on Man ning the Navy. The hon. member for Sunderland had given notice of a motion to defer this vote until more infor mation was produced ; but he hoped that the few observa tions he was about to make would prevent his hon. friend from taking that course. The hon. member was aware that the Royal Commission of last year recommended that a sum of £200,000 should be taken for a variety of matters of de tail, with which he need not now trouble the house, for the improvement of our reserves ; one of their recommendations was in favour of school-ships, and another was for an annual payment penman of £1 to the pension fund, and also of £.5 yearly as a retaining fee for 20,000 men, making a total of £200,000. The late Government before quitting office took a long time to consider these matters, and they arrived at the conclusion at last that £lOO,OOO should be the sum. It would be deceiving the house to say that the pre sent Board of Admiralty, having been in office only about a week, had had time to go into the consideration of this ques tion, for the amount of other business had entirely pre vented proper attention being paid to it hitherto. (Hear, hear.) However, the present Board of Admiralty felt that it would be obviously impolitic, because they had not yet been able to arriveat a decision upon the details of the sub ject, that they should therefore exclude this sum from the estimates. It was wiser to retain the sum in the estimates, and, as soon afterwards as they could see their way, to prepare a bill or bills to carry out the measure. Now, not one shilling of this money could be spent until the House of Commons agreed to pass enactments necessary to carry out the recom mendations of the Royal Commission. Therefore the hon. member for Sunderland would perceive it was unnecessary to press his motion, because if the house thought fit not to assent to the measures carrying out so far the views of the Royal Commission, this fund would not be spent, and it would only become available for the experiment in the event of the approval of the house. Consequently, he trusted that his hon. friend would not object to the vote upon the understanding that not one shilling of the money would be spent until an act of Parliament was passed au thorising the Government to lay it out for the improvement of our reserves. (Hear.) He would now turn to the ori ginal estimates, in which vote No. 5 was for the scientific branch. There was a small increase in it, but he was not aware that there was anything in that vote or in vote No. 6, providiftg for the establishments at home, on which he need detain the house. He might say the some with re gard to vote No. 7, referring to the establishments abroad, and now he came to vote No. 8. This was a vote on which it would be necessary for him to make some few observa tions. Besides, the ordinary wages of shipwrights there was an extraordinory charge here, which he believed they might call the "reconstruction" charge. These formed two distinct charges in the original estimates; and there was also a large sum in the supplemental estimates under the head of wages to artificers. He would proceed to explain the history of this transaction. Up to March last the men in the dockyards were working in the usual way on day pay. There was no particular pressure on the dockyards, and the men were all receiving their day's pay for a day's labour. But in March the late Government thought fit to commence a system of task and job work, and also to enter a consider able number of additional artificers. There were 1,434 ship wrights entered in addition to a corresponding number of other labourers. In April, again, the right hon. gentle man, the late First Lord of the Admiralty, considered it important, probably from circumstances connected with foreign affairs, to make additional exertions ' • and then com menced a system of over hours; that was to say, besides the institution of task and job work, men were allowed to work over hours, and so the dockyards went on until May, when there came a large increase of no less than 1,350 shipwrights and other artificers and labourers; mak ing a total of 17,690 workmen now employed in the dock yards against 14,128 employed in the month of March. This was a very great increase, and he believed that the in crease was absolutely necessary. (Hear, hear.) He thought that the right hon. gentleman (Sir J. Pakington) deserved the gratitude of the country for having taken this matter in hand, for having come to the decision of raising the amount of workmen in the dockyards with the least possible delay. (Hear, hear.) The present Government, on coming into office, looked very carefully over this vote, and they sent for the Surveyor of the Navy, Sir B. Walker, and asked very particularly for what period this additional expense would provide pay for the additional men; and Sir B. Walker stated that it would only pay the men up to the month of October. It would be very unwise that that body of men should be discharged, when the short days of winter were coming on, when over the country work was scarce, and, moreover, when there would still remain in the dockyards a vast amount of work to be done; and therefore the Go vernment had resolved to keep them on till the end of the financial year, and to ask for an additional sum of £lOO,OOO on that account. This was a sufficient answer to the state ments which had been made, that the present Government intended to cut down the expenditure in the dockyards, and to cease the efforts which were being made to put our navy upon a war footing. (Hear, hear.) Up to the present year, all the information which the house had about vote 10 had been that it was for materials for shipbuilding. They had often heard little disputes between high authorities as to the number of ships which had been built by this or that Government. He remembered that the right hon. baronet opposite (Sir J. Pakington) claimed some line-of-battle ships of his right hon. friend the They were built almost en tirely iion. baronet was in office ; but, s Secretary whilech of ths weretae latterte the fo r property ngidlita as they were finished under the administration of the right hon. baronet the member for Droitwich, he claimed them as having been built during his time. For the purpose of putting an end to these discussions, and giving the house an idea of what building really was carried on in our dock yards, he had„ endeavoured to ascertain what amount of tonnage was built there in a year. During the past year, 1858-9, we had built three line-of-battle ships of 10,604 tons ; frigates, 5,851; corvettes, 1,193 ; sloops and gun vessels, 1,511; total, 19,159 tons. If the scheme of the Government were carried out, and no unforeseen contin gency should arise, there would be built of line-of-battle ships 19.606 tons; frigates, 15,897; corvettes, 5,130; sloops and gun vessels, 5,651; total, 46,284, or more than double the tonnage built last year. During the present year we were converting five sail-of the line and four 50-gun fri gates. This was entirely exclusive of contract-built ships. Of marine engines we had at present in course of construc tion 14,570 horse-power, and orders had been given for 2,160 horse-power more, making a total of 16,730 horse power more. This was the way in which the money appro priated under vote 10 was expended. He hoped that next year the noble duke at the head of the Admiralty would permit him to place these facts upon the estimates in order to show hon. members how the money which they voted was applied. He could assure the committee that it was the earnest desire of the noble duke, and of the Board of Admi ralty, to give every possible information on thtse matters. (Hear, hear.) The sum taken in the original estimates for ships building by contract was £252,000, which was the first instalment far two iron-sased frigates, one of which would be lisunched on the 18th of April next—the total cost of Which he was not then in a position to state. In addi tion to this sum there was in the supplemental estimates a vote for 18 gun vsssels of a very superior class, which were to be built by contract. With regard to vote No. 11 for new works, improvements, and repairs, the new Board of Admiralty, having had no time to visit the different dock • yards, had formed no independent judgment. Each year we built larger ships, and consequently had to enlarge our docks; and he supposed we should go on in the same way until there came a change, and ships were reduced in size. (Hear, hear, from Sir C. Napier.) On the 12th and 13th votes he had no remark to offer to the house. The 14th was the vote for half-pay, and in the supplementary estimate on this an addition was asked for on account of the increase in the scale of the half-pay of medical officers and chaplains. It had reference to the order to which he had adverted when explaining vote 1 for full pay. Vote 15 was for military pensions, and was of the usual character. Vote 16 was for the conveyance of troops, and as the Govern ment had recently thought fit to reinforce the Mediterra nean garrisons, a considerable increase in this vote had been thereby entailed. On the vote for the Packet Service in the supplementary estimate, for which there was an in crease on account of the new contract for the conveyance of mails from Dover to Calais and Ostend, his colleague, the Civil Lord of the Admiralty, in whose department it fell, would give any explanation which might be desired. He had 'nosy gone through these complicated estimates to the best of his limited ability, though he was conscious that he had omitted many important and interesting details which it was his duty and his desire to have laid before the house. In the remarks which he had been obliged to make on that which had taken place under the late Government, he hoped that he said nothing which could be deemedoffensive, for his only desire was to state his opinion, and particularly his professional opinion as a naval man, on the points which had lately occupied so much of the public attention. If there was one subject which could be debated more than another without any infusion of party spirit, it was the state of our navy, for all parties-were equally interested in maintaining the efficiency of that great arm of England's glory. (Hear.) He trusted, therefore, that in discussing these estimates there would be an entire absence of party spirit, and that all would enter on the question with the single desire to put the navy on the most efficient footing. This country desired peace, not war—(hear) —and in the great preparations which wo were making to arm our fleets we had not the smallest desks for aggression on other countries. The earnest desire of every man in this country must be that this horrible and bloody war might bo brought to an end, and he trusted that what we had lately heard might be the forerunner of it. (Cheers.) But the words of the poet were as true now as when they were written— " With common men It needs too oft the show of war To keep sweet peace." The noble lord concluded by moving that 10,000 additional men and boys be granted for service in her Majesty's fleets. Sir J. PAKINGT ON—After the speech of the noble lord I am happy to say I shall not think it necessary to de tain the committee at any length, nor have I the slightest complaint to make of the tone and manner in which he has treated the subject. (Hear.) On the contrary, lam anxious to bear my testimony to the ability with which he has per formed his duty, and considering the few days which he has held his present office, the committee must feel that it is highly to his credit. (Cheers.) lam bound, too, to ac knowledge the candour and fairness with which he has re ferred to the efforts madeby the late Government to increase the efficiency of the navy. He has confirmed that which I felt it my duty to state as to the force which wetturned over to our - successors, that having found when we went into office 26 line of battle ships-12 in the Channel and 14 in the Mediterranean—we left behind us 40, which number will be increased to 50 by the end of the present year, I heard from• him too, with the greatest pleasure, that the present Government intend to ad opt the whole of the esti mates of the late Government, unusually large as thoy un doubtedly are. (Hear.) In fact, the house and the country must rather begin to wonder why the late change of Go vernment took place. (A laugh.) There are two subjects of paramount importance in the public mind just now—our foreign relations, and our national defences. We have had the most distinct assurance from the Premier that, with regard to our foreign relations, the present Govern ment are content "to walk in the path chalked out for them by their predecessors." (Hear, hear.) They have adopted our policy, and they make no complaint of it. And with regard to our national defences, I have the double sa tisfaction, as a member of the late Government and as an Englishman, of hearing from the noble lord fo-night that our estimates are accepted and our plans approved. (Hear, hear.) I confess, therefore, I am at a loss to know why we forfeited the confidence of the House of Commons—but having for.. feited it, it is satisfactory to have the compliment paid us of being told that our successors can do no better than tread in our steps, with regard to these two subjects of paramount importance. (Hear, hear.) The first statement made by the noble lord was that the Government had determined to place three superior line-of-battle ships in stations round the coast. I should like to have some further explanation on that point. I presume they are to be deducted from the Channel fleet. Lord C. PAGET—No, they are three ships which are ready to be cou.missioned, but are not yet in commission. Sir J. PAKINGTON—In that case I think the measure may be a very prudent one. (Hear, hear.) The noblelord next alluded to the course taken by the late Admiralty with regard to the medical officers and chaplains, and he seemed to make some complaint of our not having remedied the grievances urged by the piasters and paymasters. He cannot be aware of the attention which was paid by the late Board of Admiralty to the complaints of the latter classes of officers. It is true that we had' arrived at no final decision on the question, but we had recognised their fair claim to have their complaints considered, and I left in the hands of the Duke of Somerset a written memorandum, ex plaining the views of the late Board of Admiralty on the subject, and showing that it was their full intention to deal with the complaints of these officers. I wish to prevent the existence of an impression which would be as erroneous as it would be unfair towards the late Board of Admiralty, that they had declined to entertain the complaints of the masters and paymasters. It was merely the want of opportunity, arising from the change of Government, which prevented us from dealing with the complaints of these classes of offi cers in the same spirit in which we had dealt with the com plaints of the surgeons and chaplains. I will now advert to what fell from the noble lord with reference to a most im portant subject, upon which I wish that,he had afforded us more information—the intentions of the Government with regard to an extension of the bounty. The noble lord has on former occasions avowed his disapproval of the principle of a bounty, and I think, considering that circumstance, ha treated the subject with the utmost fairness. He admitted, with as much fairness as if he had been one of the strongest supporters of the bounty, that the experiment has been completely successful, and I don't think it is presumptuous to say that the success of that measure is in a great degree a test of its merit. (Hear, hear, from Sir C. Napier.) I am sure no one will deny—and the noble lord and his col leagues would be the last persons to do so—that, consider ing the state of public affairs in Europe three months ago, it was the imperative duty of the Government to lose no time in giving England an efficient fleet. (Cheers.) How then, was this to be done ? The measures which the late Go vernment intended to introduce, and with which the pre sent Government, I am glad to say, intend to proceed, con sequent on the report of the Manning Commission, had not been matured, and the only resources to which we could turn were the Coastguard and the Naval Coast Volunteers. Would it have been politic on our part to turn at once to the last resource ? _ I do not believe any man would have recommended such a policy. How, then, could we obtain a fleet ? Only by offering a bounty. It happened that at that moment, from different causes—partly owing to the prevalence of easterly winds, and partly owing to its being the season when the Baltic and the North American trades were just commencing—an unusually small number of mer chant seamen were available in our ports ; and unless we had adopted the principle of a bounty we could not have turned over to the present Government 26 line-of-battle ships and 13 frigates in a state of perfect efficiency. We had no hesitation in adopting the principle of the bounty, and, although I am sorry the noble lord doubts the wisdom of that measure, my consolation is that I believe he will be almost alone in that opinion. The noble lord says the bounty is excessive. I told the house on a former occasion that the bounty was certainly high beyond any precedent, but if we had not made the bounty high beyond all former precedent we should have failed in our object, and we should not have succeeded in manning the fleet. I believe that no bounty has been resorted to in this country since 1815, and it must be remembered that in the interval im- mense changes have taken place in the general condition of seamen, and in their rate of pay. I think, when the acci dental scarcity of seamen, and the high rates of pay offered in the merchant service three months ago, are borne in mind, very little consideration will convince the house that it would have been perfectly useless to offer a low bounty. In fact, if we had not offered a high bounty we should not have been successful, and I believe that by the course we adopted we have obtained the fleet we re quired. My earnest hope is that the adoption of a sounder system, providing a steady and permanent re serve for the supply of the navy, and carrying into effect the recommendations of the Royal Commission, will prevent future Governments from being compelled to resort, as we were obliged to do, to the unusual course of offering a very high bounty. I now approach a state ment of the noble lord which I heard with great surprise, and, so far as I understood him, with great regret, and I am sorry that the noble lord did not furnish us with some further explanations on the subject. He told us that a Council had been held fo-day, and that an order in Council was to be issued, but he did not tell us what was its object. If I understood him rightly, the Government have made up their minds to extend the bounty to other seamen who were previously in the service. Lord C. PAGET.—To a portion of them. Sir J. PAKINGTON.—I think I have some right to complain of the imperfect explanation afforded by the noble lord, aril although I will not presume to censure a measure which I so imperfectly understand, and, on that ground, I express my opinion very guardedly, I must say I am afraid the Government have established a precedent which may hereafter be found most inconvenient and objectionable. I think the noble lord's statement did not justify the course which I understand the Government have determined to adopt. He frankly declared that there had been no dissa tisfaction or discontent in the fleet. When we offered a bounty wo were told, I believe by my hon. and gallant friend near me (Sir C. Napier) and by other very high au thorities—" The certain result of your measure will be to spread discontent and dissatisfaction throughout the fleet, and you will be obliged to extend the bounty to other men." I never felt more firmly determined—and my colleagues completely concurred with me—to resist any such demand, and my opinion has been justified by the result. The noble lord has admitted, in the broadest terms, that there has been no discontent or dissatisfaction among the sea men. He has told us that the Government have deter mined to deal generously with the seamen of our fleet. In that principle undoubtedly I concur, but I say that we have dealt generously with them. The noble lord has told us that when we examine the estimates in detail we shall not only find charges for the bounty, but for those new allow ances and advantages, such as clothing, bedding, and other things, thegrant of which, I think, slows a disposition to deal with seamenin a most generous spirit. But upon what principle do you think it necessary to extend to men who were previously in the service the bounty which we offered to induce other men to enter it ? I entreat the Govern ment to recollect that this course is wholly without prece dent. I believe that there have been three occasions on which a bounty had been given, but in no instance has it, been extended to seamen previously engaged. The right hon. member for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham) told us on a former evening that, at the commencement of the Russian war, the Government of which he was a member abstained from giving a bounty to seamen. I think he did not ex plain why that course was adopted, but if I am not very much mistaken, the main reason was that an Act passed in 1835, the sth and Gth William IV., contained what I think a very unwise clause, providing that whenever a bounty was offered every sailor then in the fleet was to start a new engagement for five years, and in consideration of such new engagement was to receive the bounty. It is quite clear that the Government of which the right hon. baronet was a member shared the opinion I now express as to the impolicy of that provision, for, under his auspices, I believe in 1853 an act was passed by which it was repealed, and the necessity of extending a bounty to seamen pre viously in the fleet ceased to exist. The clause to which .I have referred, whether wise or unwise, was never acted upon, and I fear, if the Government now introduce for the first time what I think a dangerous principle, that you can not on an emergency offer a bounty to man your fleet with out incurring the great and unnecessary expense of extend ing that bounty to all men who were previously serving. The practical result will be to deter Governments from re sorting to this most useful measure—one, I admit, which ought not to be lightly adopted, but which may be most valuable when some p ressin g occasion may arise. The noble lord compla ined of the form of our proclamation in regard to bounty. comp arin g it to a Russian ukase. Lord C. PAGET—I meant that it was an arbitrary pro ceeding, being withou t the sanction of Parliament. Sir J. PAKINGTON—I admitted on a former occasion that the late Government took upon themselves a very great responsibility, and the step was subsequently sanctioned by Parliament. I thought it was to the form of our proclama tion thi.t the noble lord objected, and I was about to say that in drawing it up we strictly adhered to precedent. I am glad that the Government intend to introduce a bill for carrying out the report of the commission on the manning of the navy ; but the late Government were not open to the accusation that has been repeatedly made against them as to their having been very slow in arriving at a decision on this point. I beg to say we do not in the least deserve that charge. The commissioners reported in the month of February, the Government had to consider their report, and the noble lord seems to have forgotten that for a consi derable interval of time, there being no Parliament sitting, it was impossible for the Government to announce their de cision. A few weeks only had tlapsed after the presenta tion of the report before Parliament was dissolved, and in the Queen's Speech, delivered on it s reassembling, there was an intimation that this point had been decided. We could hardly, therefore, have been more expeditious in the matter. The noble lord alluded to the great number of shipwrights that we added to the dockyards in order to ac celerate the shipbuilding operations going on, and he an nounced the change which the present Government have resolved to adopt, at a cost to the country of about £lOO,OOO. I am not prepared at this moment to give a very decided opinion one way or the other as to the policy of what the Government have done ; but one part of the noble lord's ,reasoning I cannot accept. He says it would be very hard on the shipwrights that they should be turned adrift just at the time of the short days after having been employed all the summer by the Government. Now, however na tural this; feeling may be as between man and man, I must say that in dealing with the public money you are hardly justified in spending £lOO,OOO to maintain shipwrights whom you don't want. The great question is, "Do you require them or not ?" If you do, then the Govern ment deserves credit for employing them, and certainly had we remained in office, and the services of these men had been called for at the end of the six months, we should not have hesitated to retain them. The course we took was founded on tho recommendation of the Surveyor of the Navy. Sir Baldwin Walker came to the late Board of Ad miralty and suggested that an additional force of ship wrights should be taken on for six months to expedite par , ticular works and to clear off arrears. Uponi hiii ad- vice we determined on engaging these 1,300 extra ship wrights for that period accordingly; and if at the end of the first six months, he had informed us that the men would be wanted for six months more, we should then have thought that a sufficient justification for our taking the course now adopted by our successors. That is a matter of which the Admiralty must be the best judges. If they are prepared to assure the house that the work in the dockyards is in such a state that it is desirable for the interests of the public service, and not merely on grounds, as it would rather appear, of private charity, that these men should be kept on for the whole financial year, then I certainly will not offer the slightest objection to their proposal. The noble lord next stated that I claimed credit for ships which really belonged to my predecessor. Sir, I don't know of anything that has passed or that has fallen from me on which this assertion is based ; but I must in the most distinct manner repudiate any intention ever to make any such claim. (Cheers.) And let me add, that I think we have had a little too much party feeling and party views mixed with our discussions relating to the navy ; and I quite agree with my noble friend opposite that the more this is avoided the better. (Renewed cheers.) lam content with having during the period I had the honour to be at the head of the Admiralty endeavoured to do my duty to the country as well as I could. (Cheers.) What I have done has been most kindly acknowledged, and by none more than by some distinguished members of the present Government. I have no wish to detract from the merit due to other men; and if party discussions on this subject have reluctantly on my part been forced upon me, I, for one, do not want to renew that of which we have had too much already. This great question of restoring the strength of the British navy, and keeping it up to the point at which it ought to be maintained, is one of such para mount national importance and intense interest at this moment that it infinitely transcends everything which savours of party. As I have endeavoured to do my own duty in this matter, I doubt not the present Government will also endeavour to do theirs ; and I am sure that no man in this house will give to their services a fuller or more frank recognition than I shall. (CheerA.) Sir C. NAPIER congratulated his hon. and gallant friend on the very clear and sailorlike manner in which he had brought forward these estimates. The gallant officer had told the house that he had got the Channel fleet up to 12 sail of the lino ; and he quite agreed with him that it was not desirable to confine that fleet to the Channel. Portland might be very good for head-quarters, but the ships should be kept constantly at sea, in order that the men, the officers, and even the admiral, should acquire the necessary experi ence. Different officers had different notions of drill, and a little sea experience under the admiral was necessary to give uniformity in this important matter. Ile had had the hon our to command the Channel squadron for two years ; and, although he was not fonder of praising himself than other men—(a laugh)—he must say that under his orders a per fect uniformity of discipline was obtained in the fleet under his command. With regard to the block ships which were sent to the Baltic, he said that the object was to have effi cient ships ready to receive the reserve; but he added that they were by some extraordinary arrangement sent without masts and yards, so that they were entirely useless. The coast-guard were old sailors, and there were no better men sent to the Baltic. As to the coast volunteers, he had no doubt that they would come forward when they were called upon, if they were properly treated, and not sent some to one place and some to another, but made available for manning the ships at the naval stations to which they belonged. But suppose your ships manned, where were the officers to command ? Where were the captains and lieutenants to command the men ? Formerly we were overwhelmed with officers, now the Admi ralty had gone to the opposite extreme, They were asked for £lOO,OOO for the reserve, but that was not the way of securing an effective reserve. They ought to keep 10 sail of the line fully manned with able seamen in time of peace, and that would supply the nucleus of a force sufficient for 30 sail of the line in the event of any emergency arising. The noble lord said they had 40 sail of the line and 120 gun boats in a state of efficieny ; but if they had 80 sail of the line we should be safe against all the powers of the world. The paying off of the fleet in 1857, and the conse quent necessity of getting it up again, had cost more money than it would have done to maintain the fleet in an efficient state at its full force. The hon.. and gallant officer had spoken of 231 merchant steam vessels which might in case of emergency be made available ; but how long would it take to fit them out and arm them ? With regard to man ning the navy, he was glad to hear that the bounty, accord ing to the plan he proposed many years ago, was to be given, but it must be given to the full extent—a portion would not satisfy the men. The number of desertions, he understood, was now as great as they were during the war, which he regretted, because it proved that the men did not consider themselves well treated. If they were properly treated desertion would be extremely rare. The system on which the Admiralty was conducted was anything but satisfactory. One board was turned out and was succeeded by another, and in the course of five years there had been seven first lords, and therefore it was not surprising that a great deal of waste and extravagance took place. The system must be put an end to in some way or other. With respect to Greenwich Hospital a most searching examina tion was necessary. Whilst all the officers received their full pay or their pensions, the sailors got only a shilling a week, and the way in which they were treated led to every species of immorality. If a sailor was ruptured in the service he only got a gratuity of £5 or £6 and was then dis- I charged, and as nobody would employ him he must either go the poorhouse or starve. Greenwich Hospital was in fact nothing but an exhibition of splendid misery. The hon. and gallant officer then referred to returns, showing the number of s eamen who had taken refuge in poor law unions and workhouses, but the manner in which he read them rendered it quite impossible to report even their substance. Mr. LINDSAY coiled attention to the enormous increase in the navy estimates. In 1852 they amounted to £5,500,000, in 1853 to £6,280,000, in 1858 to £8,680,000, and the pre sent estimates amounted to no less than £12.680,000. He was not going to oppose the vote, because he was one of those who thought it wise economy to maintain the defences of the country in an efficient state ; but he thought that the navy might be maintained in as elacient a state as it now is for much less money. He hoped that his noble friend the Secretary for the Admiralty would prevent those conver sions of ships that were constantly take place at so useless a sacrifice of public money. There was something wrong in our dockyards. He would take first the wages of arti ficers in the dockyards. He had paid some attention to this subject, and he had taken out the wages to shipwrights employed on eight ships, all of the same size, 1,462 tons, two of which were built at Devonport, two at Sheerness, two at Chatham, and two at Woolwich. He found that the price paid for shipwrights' labour for these ships was £8 13s. 11d, a ton, while for the Tartar and Cossack, which were built in a private yard on the Thames for the Rus sian Government, the cost of the labour was only £2 Bs. a ton. He did not recommend that our ships of war should be built in private shipyards, but he thought there might be a very great reduction made in the item of shipwrights' wages. The item for labour was £1,527,000, of which about £1,000,000 was for shipwrights, and on that item alone there might be a saving of some £400,000, to the country. Take the next item—materials and stores. The vote required amounted to £2,800,000. He would only take two items as an example. tp to a recent period it was though that there were only two or three firms in this country capable of building steam engines for the navy. He did not recommend that the construction of steam engines for the navy should be let out by tender, but it was rather too much to suppose that persons who constructed engines for the Peninsular and Oriental Company, and for the At lantic Steam Packet Company, could not construct them for the navy. The result had that the two firms em ployed had a monopoly, and they had been charging £6O a ton—his gallant friend behind him said £Bo—whereas, if they had widened the range they might have got them for £5O or £45 a ton. He trusted that the Secretary of the Admiralty would not be led by those under him to think that there were only two or three firms who were capable of constructing steam engines for the navy, but would use his own judgment. Then take anchors. He was on a com mittee which sat for two or three months on the subject of anchors. Seven different kinds of anchors were tested before them, and they tested them in every possible way, and they arrived unanimously at a decision, and gave in a report that the Admiralty anchor was the worst anchor of the whole lot, yetthough that report hadAdbemeirnalitnyanchorposses sion of the Admiralty nine years, the still continued in use. (Hear.) And moreethan that, the price that the Admiralty paid for seventeen anchors was £3,364 17s. 6d., whereas the market price for these anchors was only £1,428. Then take thewagesofseamen. The amount required was £2,966,000. He was on the commission for manning the navy. He differed from his colleagues on that commission, and that he arrived at the solemn conviction that the extra expenditure which they were about to saddle on the country would be wasted. He should consider it his duty to oppose that expenditure in every stage, and he trusted it would not be agreed to without a thorough dis cussion. He believed that on this item they mi g ht save £500,000 a year without making the manning of the navy in any way less efficient than at present. Perhaps the house was not aware that in her Majesty's ships the same system was followed that was followed in the time of our grand fathers. There was the same number of men required, ton for ton and gun for gun, that was required in the time of our grandfathers, and while every merchant ship had its patent blocks and patent sheaves for saving labour, there was no thing of t yt h o eotfhkteihnoedffioi en ffi e officers s r M sHh a oe j u ships.iedsididyb'iotre reduced aeueid Referonce had tetoha been o l a l t p a t o m t h o te r ead l n p y e t a i p o a n id th a a lre gr ad e y it . e v IHtehaart, musthear. t , o f urre theyco mme werend or later. The vote Avhi c h th ey were asked s But he wanted to k remedied ed togve soonerfor the half-pay and reserved and retired list was £718,000. His hon. and gallant friend said theyhad no officers. What was the fact ? This year they had on the active list 96 admirals, of whom 14 were employed. Of the list of commanders there were 27 per cent, employed ; of the lieutenants, 67 per cent. ; and of the masters, 73 per cent employed. There was a superab un d ance of officers, especially in the higher grades. Even at the period when we had to put out our whole force at the close of the war with Russia, in 1855, the active list was enough ; and more than enough, leaving a great number of offic er s who could not ffnd employment. Now we ought not to take into the service a large number of officers unless they had a fair chance of finding employ ment. Such a state of things created great discontent amongst the officers who could not be employed, whilst those who had influence at court obtained employment and promo tion. There was no reason why we should not be able to go to the merchant service for the supply of our navy in cases of emergency. The officers of the East India ships and steam ships were very little inferior, if at all, to those of the royal navy, and might be called upon in time of war, along with the reserve of seamen from our merchant ships. Altogether, it would be well to pull down the wall of demarcation between the navy and the merchant service. It was quite unnecessary that there should be any competition between them, or that they should outbid each other in the labour market, spending the money of the coun try., He had no doubt that by some such an arrangement more than two millions might be saved to the countrywithout injury to the efficiency of the service. In materials and artificers from £500,000 to £700,000 might be saved, and in one way and another he believed that eight or nine millions a year might be made to go as far as the twelve millions which they were now about to vote. It was their imperative duty promptly to look to this, because the present amount of taxation pressed heavily on the people of this country. Mr. CARDWELL observed that the house would have another opportunity of discussing the questions raised by the hon. gentleman on the vote for the naval reserve, or on the introduction of the bill to be brought in for manning the navy. What the commission really recommended, as to the reserve to be obtained from the merchant service, was not the same as the hon. gentleman had referred to. The recom mendations of the co mmission, if adopted, would, upon their showing, involve an expense of £600,000, to which, in the hon. gentleman's opinion, another £lOO,OOO was to be added. No doubt, g oing over all the items, it mi g ht be sho wn that their recommendations did involve that additional expendi ture ; but looking only to the subject of the naval reserve to be drawn from the merchant service, it appeared that upon an emergency some 25,000 men might be supplied, well trained in gu nner y , and ready to serve their cou n t r y i n th e hour Of danger, and that the whole expense of providing this, according to the commissioners' recomendations, would be £200,000. It should be remembered the impressment, which had been resorted to in our former wars, could no longer be relied upon for the defence of the country. Such was the progress which had been made in the arts of war, and in the construction of the arms of precision, that per sons promiscuously taken by a press gang were not fit to be depended pn. The report was in conformity with the evi dence of those who of all others were best able to form a sound judgment, including commanders of the Coastguard, the chief clerk of the Admiralty, the Board of Trade, the great shipping companies, and the registrars of seamen. Hereafter he should be prepared to defend it on its own merits. Sir J. ELPHINSTONE exculpated the navy from the charge of not availing itself of the improvements which had been introduced into the merchant service. The number of men must be apportioned to the guns ; and he did not know that any mode had yet been discovered of reducing the number required to manage a 32-pounder. The case of the officers required a separate inquiry. The truth was that, owing to the more temperatehabits of modern times, the old officers lasted longer than they used to do. (Laughter.) The committee presided over some years ago by Lord Sey mour had done a great deal of mischief. There was literally no class of junior officers springing up. There were ships that had only half-a-dozen midshipmen, where there ought to be a score more. He regarded midshipmen as the most useful class of officers on board. Give him plenty of good midshipmen, and he would dispense with many lieutenants, but a vessel without midshipmen was crippled. He thought that when they had had a fair turn of work out of a lieute nant they ought to buy him out of the service. The con version of ships ought to be continued, but he had never yet seen one that had been properly converted. He had paid great attention to the subject of fuel. He was afraid to say how much a year might be saved under that head ; but up to the present time the many meritorious inventions there were for economising coal had been almost totally neglected. He hoped that the Clyde engine builders would be allowed a fair chance of competing with those on the Thames. The food of our seamen had till lately been quite insufficient; and he should recommend the , present Government to go even further than the late one in remedying that serious evil. He thought the men ought to be allowed a meat sup per. Another grievance wasethe dcprivaticn of the warrant officers of their widows' pensions. These men were chosen from the elite of the seamen ; and while the amount of pro perty under their care was now greater than ever, their standing in the service had been much lowered. The state of matters at Greenwich was most wretched. (Hear, hear.) The Government ought at once to institute a strict inquiry into the matter, with a view to see whether it would not be better to give the men in the shape of out pensionswhat tney now best, instead of keeping them t as at present, in one of the worst monasteries ever established. He strongly disapproved of the use of frigates as flagships in hot climates. The flagship was a sort of storeship for the squadron ; and unless it was very roomy the men had to be accommodated on the lower decks, which in. hot sta tions were absolutely pestilential. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BENTINCK observed that in the course of the de bate which had just taken place they had been putting " the cart before the horse," talking of effects instead of causes. It would have been far better to have first discussed the composition of the Board of Admiralty, which was the cause of all the errors they had to deplore. It was, in fact, im possible with a board so constituted to 'avoid blundering and extravagance. It was quite absurd to expect that a board, presided over by a non-professional person, and sub ject to a change with every new Government could ever: be placed on a satisfactory footing. Of all others the navy was a department that required the constant supervision of men who were possessed not only of professional knowledge but of considerable experience. As to the question of man n;ng the navy, he must differ from his hon. friend (Mr. Lindsay.) He contended that the late board adopted, the only mode in their power to supply the deficiency, of men which unhappily existed, namely, that of offering a bounty. (Hear, hear.) The mode in which anchors had been sup plied to the navy was another proof of the inefficient sys tem which prevailed under the present constitution of the Admiralty. Sir F. BARING agreed that it would be more convenient to have a separate and full discussion on the construction of the Board of Admiralty instead of a _continuous series of de sultory attacks upon the system. With regard to the bounty, it was a subject ou which he could hardly,give an opinion, for he was not aware of the circumstances under which that step was taken. Unless, however, there was an extreme and pressingemergency, he did not think it was a wise or prudent proceeding. That subject, however, could be discussed ; and with regard to provisioning the navy, the 'present plan was the result of the recommendation of a committee which sat in 1850, and he thought had proved satisfactory. With re ference to manning the navy, he did not feel inclined to vote money without knowing how it was to be spent, but as he was told by the Secretary to the Admiralty that the ques tion would be made the subject of a bill in itself 'he was content to let the.matter pass. He was not informed whe ther the system of continuous service had been as success ful as was anticipated, and it could only be tested in time of war, when men were urgently required for manning the navy. He thought that it was desirable to have &full in quiry into all the points connected with the navy, when those who said that the naval estimates could be cut down with the maintenance of efficiency should be called on to prove their assertions.. Admiral WALCOTT wished again to point out the necessity of the establishment of a board of men experienced in naval architecture, whose duty it, would be to consider the various improvements and inventions connected with shipbuilding and the fitting of ships of war. With respect to the bounty, he was of opinion that it ought to be consi dered in eonnection with the feverish state of the public mind and the situation of public affairs on the Continent, which was sufficient to account for and justify such a step. He was one of those who thought that the plan of, building ships of great length was running into extremes. Some of the gigantic ships that were projected or building would be, he was convinced, perfectly useless as working or manage able vessels. Whenever the opportunity offered he should be prepared to go into the questions of the constitution of the Board of Admiralty and of manning the navy. Lord C. PAGET had a very pleasing duty to perform in thanking those gentlemen who had complimented him on his manner of performing his duty, and had made many valuable suggestions. That which had just been made for a board of scientific men to consider the subject of naval architecture was a very valuable one, and he also thanked the member for Sunderland for his suggestions, which he would lay before the Board of Admiralty. Mr. WILLIAMS moved that the chairman should re pat progress. Lord PALMERSTON urged that the feeling of the house was in favour of proceeding. Mr. WILLIAMS said that the general feeling of the count ry was against the additional estimates that had been submitted. Nearly two millions extra had been asked for, without any explanation being given. - After a few words from Lord C. PAGET, Mr. KINNAIRD said that with the events passing around us, there was but one feeling in th e coun t ry, th a t we should place ourselves in a position of defence. (Cheers.) The motion was negatived without a division, and the vote fixing the number of seamen and marines was agreed to. On the next vote being put, Mr. WILLIAMS again moved that the chairman should report progress; but the motion was again negatived with out a division. The following vote was then agreed te---£470 ene fo r - wages of seamen and marines. bc au Mr.t rd the next WILLIAMSv n a e i d : vote, tmhse du is ; r 2 ean 4 nl : et; ww 2 one d l 2 8mi f or hsnt s ouviiiecaost was t ual wd io iev i siallo A now d e ivi d division 000foorfotrhceoAasdtmgiuraardltysoeffirvciec,e, Bcc._Agreed. £2,000 for then resumed. Lord C. PAGLT stated, in answer to a ques t t o i . on e , a t P ha e ; the navy estimates would be proceeded with on Monday. PUBLIC HEALTH BILL. The house went into committee onthis bill. On clause 1, • • Mr. GRIFFITHS asked whatwas the object of the bill, and what was to be the. salary of the clerk who was to be appointed. Mr. LOWE said he was not able to tell what the sale*" was, but that would come before the house in the shape of a vote. The object of the bill was to enable the clerk in ordinary to act in all times , in, the absence of the olerk of the council. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked what the retiring pension was to be. Mr. LOWE said he was unable to answer the question a that moment. Mr. BLAKCBURN said the retiring pension was about £1,760. On the question being put, the clause was negatived without a division. The preamble of the bill was then azreed to. CRIMINAL JUSTICE MIDDLESEX (ASSISTANT JUDGE) BILL. This bill passed through committee pro forma. HIGH SHERIFFS' EXPENSES BILL. Mr. GRIFFITHS said that if the house read the bill a second time he would postpone the committee till the 19th of give ample time for conside ra ti on. This July,h bi which PUBLlCwicahwould read s CONTRACTS asecondtime. COMMITTEE. The following members were nominated as the committee on the Public Departments Contracts :—Mr. Corry, Sir Charles Napier, Mr. Turner, Colonel Dunne, Lord Claud Hamilton, r. Westhead, Colonel North, Mr. Jackson, Mr. Roebuck, ColonelGilpin, Mr. Newdegate, Viscount Duncan, the Judge Ad vocate, Lord Lovaine, and Mr. Whitbread. TRANSFER OF LAND (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion of Mr. WHITESIDE, leave was given to bring in a bill to facilitate the transfer of land in Ireland by simplifying the law of judgments. The bill was read a first time. CORPORATION OF LONDON REGULATION BILL. Sir G. LEWIS, in moving for leave to bring in a bill for the better regulation of the Corporation of the City of Lon don, said that the bill was mostly founded on the report of the committee, the principal difference relating to the num ber of wards. The bill only dealt with the constitution of the corporation, and did not touch the financial part of the subject. It did not attempt to deal with the coal duties or metage dues. These were_questions which must b e rese rved for future consideration . Ile did net wish to be understood as expressing any opinion on that subject at present. The coal duties would expire at an early period, and when that time arrived or immediately before, it would be the most convenient far considering that difficult question. The bill was subsequently read a first time. The house adjourned at 20 minutes to one. BIRTHS. BROCK.—bn the 7th inst. at 4, Craine-grove-t errace, Hol loway, the wife of th e Rev. Isaac Brock, of a son. POPE.—On the 7th inst., at Harewoods, BlPtchingly, Sur rey, the wife of Theo. Esq., 'of the London Corn Exchange, of a daughter. MARRIAGES. RYMER—CARPENTER.—On the 6th inst., at St. Luke's, Chelsea, James Rymer, Efiq., of 22, Parliament-street, and Somers-place, Hyde-park, to Sarah Rebecca, the only daughter of William Carpenter, Esq., of Tudor House. OPPLER—MABEnLY.—On the 7th inst., at St. Marylebone parish church, Adolph Oppler, Esq.,'of Arundel-square, Barnsbury-park, to Ellen Bithia, second daughter of G. Maberly, Esq., of ,St. John's -wood-park. DEATHS, BENNETT.—On the 6th inst,, T. W. Bennett, only son of T. R. Bennett, Esq., barrister-at -law, of Stoke Newing ton-green. BRADY.—On the 7th inst., at H.M.'s Dockyard, Devon port, Ellen, wife of Honry.„Brady, Esq., aged 23. CRAAVTER.—On the 7th inst., Mr. Henry Crawter, 5, Bedford-row, aged 73. ' GoLnia,-011 the sth inst., at Edinburgh, the Rev. T. S. Ciabite, minister of Coldstream. Lovnox : Printed and Published by MUIIDO YOUNG' of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, N o , 1121 Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in tile cougar 0i Middlesex, Saturday, July 9, 1859. ~~ '~~ I , , k s ,' ,