The Sun. — London, England, 1858-07-31 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PAR LIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.-(YESTERDAY.) The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clock. AMENDMENT OF THE CRIMINAL L Lord CAMPBELL said he begged to give notice that be intended to introduce two bills on ver y important subjects. His object in giving n otice was that public attention might be drawn to the subject in order that be might obtain advice and assistance, for which he should feel grateful. The first bill was to prevent persons clan destinely proceeding before grand juries andpreferring bills of indictment against parties for conspiracy, perjury, and obtaining money under false pretences,upon which, on the warrants issued, persons were taken into custody and imprisoned before any investigation could take place. Now he proposed that no such proceeding should be taken until there bad been an examination before a magistrate, or the assent of one of her Majesty's judges or Attorney- General had been obtained. Tae other bill related 'to verdicts of juries. At the present time the unani mous verdict of the jury was absolutely necessary, and great inconvenience existed in consequence of a small portion of a jury remaining opposed to the remainder. What be proposed was not to be governed by the majority of the jury, but if, after certain deliberation, it was impossible for all to agree to ono verdict, than the decision of the majority was to be taken and considered as the verdict of the whole body . Of course such verdict would be subject to be re viewed by the judge, and, if found to be defective, to be set aside by a superior court. GLEBE HOUSES. Viscount DUNGANNON gave notice of his inten. tiou, providing the subject was not taken up by the ecclesiastical bench, to bring in a bill to regulate the repairs of glebe houses. THE ROYAL ACADEMY. Lord LYNDHIIRST gave notice that next session be should call the attention of the house to the Royal Academy, first, as to its accommodation ; secondly, to the schcols which for a number of years it bad supported at its own expense ; thirdly, to the management of the funds of the institution ; and, fourthly, to its future location. (Hear, hear.) He need not inform their lord ships that he took the deepest interest in the subject. THE VACANT SPACE NEAR ST. PAUL'S. In reply to the Earl of HARRINGTON, Earl DERBY said be bad made inquiries with respect to this piece of ground. He found that it was pro posed only to build upon half the ground, and as the erection would be of- a semicircular form, the view of St. Paul's would not be infpeded. The value of the ground was estimated at about 90,0001., and ai the city only proposed to appropriate half of it, it would be making a sacrifice of between 45,0001. and 50,0001. for the benefit of the public. (Hear, hear.) THIRD READINGS. The following. bills were read a third time and passed : —Militia Pay, Militia(Services Abroad) Act Continuance, Militia Act Continnance'(No. 2), Corrupt Practices Pre vention, JudgTnent.4 (Ireland) Act Amendment, and Civil Bill, &c. (Ireland), Act Amendment. _ _ PUBLIC HEALTH BILL. On consideration of the Commonce reasons for dia.. wreeing fr3m one of their lordships' amendments to this bill, the house resolved not to insist upon the amendment. PRIVATE BILLS. Lord REDESDALE drew attention to the standing os dzrzi relating to private bills, and prnpo , ted several ne st orders which ho believed would economise both time and money, and facilitate the progress of boza fide schemes through Parliament, while they would afford security to the public, and to all persons concerned. The following are the more important:- 1r There shall be one or more officers of this house, to be called, ' The Examiners of Standing Orders for Private Bills,' who shall be appointed by the house. " A printed copy of every private bill, except estate bills, name bills, naturalisation and divorce bills, proposed to be introduced into either House of Parliament, shall be deposited in the office of the Clerk of the Parliaments on or before the 23d day of December. " The examination of the private bills which shall have been duly deposited in the office of the Clerk of the Par liaments shall commence on the 18th day of January. "Any parties shall be entitled to appear and to be heard, by themselves, their agents and witnesses, upon a memo rial addressed to the examiner, complaining of a non-com pliance with the standing orders, provided the matter com plained of be specifically stated in such memorial, and the party (if any) who may be specially affected by the non compliance with the standing orders have signed such me morial and shall not have withdrawn his signature thereto. " The examiners shall certify whether the standing orders have or have not been complied with; and when they have not been complied with, he shall certify the facts upon which his decision is founded, and any special circum stances connected with the case, such certificate to be ad (hosed to and deposited in the office of the Clerk of the Parliaments. "In all cases of petitions for additional provision in private bills originating in this house, the examiner shall give at least two clear days' notice in the office of the Clerk of the Parliaments of the day on which the same will be examined ; and he shall report to the house whether the standing orders have, or have not, been complied with, and, when they have not been complied with the facts upon which his decision is founded,' alert any special circum stances connected with the case. " In case the examiner shall feel doubts as to the due construction of any standing order in its application to a particular case, be shall make a special report of the facts, without deciding whether the standing order has, or has not, been complied with ; and in such case he shall sand such special report' with the certificate. " That when any certificate of the examiner, in which he shall certify that the standing orders have not been complied with, shall have been referred to the Standing Order Committee, they shall report to the ho us e w h e th er such standing orders ought, or ought not, to be dis; , ensed with, and whether in their opinion the parties should be permitted to proceed with their bill, or any portion thereof, and nnder what (if any) conditions, " That when any special report from the examioers as to the construction of a standing order shall have been re ferred to the Standing Order Committee, they shall deter mine, according to their construction of the standing order, and on the facts stated in such rep or t, w h e th er th e standing orders have or have not been complied with, and they shall then either report to the house that the stan•l ing orders have been complied with, or shall proceed to consider the question of dispensing with the standing orders, as the case may be. "That in all cases in which, from the certificate of the examiners, or from the decision of the committee upon spe cial reports, the question arises whether the standing orders ought or ought not to be dispensed with, the party praying for such dispensation may set forth in a written statement the grounds on which he rests his prayer ; and the opposing party may also set forth in a written statement the grounds on which he rests his opposition, both parties confining themselves strictly to the points reported on by the exa miners, or determined by the committee on their consi deration of any special report of such examiners. " That when the committee think fit, they shall hear the parties in explanation of their written statements, but no party shall be allowed to travel into any matter that is not referred to in his statement, such statement to be lodged in the office of the Clerk of the Parliaments not later than 5 o'clock on the day before the day on which the committee Is appointed to meet. " That in the case of a railway bill a sum not less than S per cent. on the amount of the estimate of expense, and in case of all other bills a sum not less than 4 per cent, on the amount of such estimate, shall, previously to the 15th day of January, be deposited with the Court of Chancery in England if the work is intended to be done in England, or with the Court of Chancery in England or the Court of Exchequer in Scotland if such work is intended to be done in Scotland, and with the Court of Chancery in Ireland if such work is intended to be done in Ireland. "That in cases where the work is to be made out of money to be raised upon the security of the rates, duties, or revenue to be created by or to arise under any bill tinder which no private or personal pecuniary profit or advantage is to be derived, a declaration stating those facts and set ting forth the means by which funds are to be obtained for executing the work, and signed by the party or agent soli citing the bill, together with an estimate of the probable amount of such rates, duties, or revenue, signed by the person making the same, may be deposited, and in such case no deposit shall be required." Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY expressed his ap probation generally of the proposed orders, which he believed were in conformity with th . ' recommendations of a committee of their lordships' house. . - Lord CAMPBELL hoped there was nothing in the amendments to confirm the doctrine lately stated by a noble friend of his in the other house (Lord J. Russell), that the House of Commons was the supreme power in the State because it possessed the power of the parse. It might as well be said that the Crown was the su preme power because it could make war and peace, and could cede the Isle of Wight to the Emperor of the French if it chose ; or that their lordships were, because in their judicial capacity they could rule that the second son, and not the first, was heir to his father. (Hear.) The motion was then agreed to. BARONIES IN ABEYANCE, Lord REDESDALE gave no►ice of iiis intention to move the following address in the nex session of Par liament " That an humble address be presented to her Majesty, showing,—That within the last century several petitions have been presented to the Crown by persona claiming to be co-heirs of peerage for many hundred years in abeyance which petitions have, according to ancient custom, been referred to the House of Lords to report thereon ; that the laborious investigations consequenton such reference neces sarily occupy much of the time which would otherwise be devoted to the judicial business of the house, which is thereby interrupt e d t o th e i nconvenience of the lords, and with injury to the suitors; that until the period referred to the peerages called out of abeyance were few in number and only in favour of personsinheriting through immediate and well-known descent from the former holders of the said peerages ; whereas in many cases of later date that in heritance, from the long duration of the abeyance, has be come remote, indirect, and generally unknown, until proved by the evidence before the house ; that the earliest pre cedent to he found for cabiug a pe erage ou t o f abey ane is neither very ancient nor altogether free fr)m the objection which necessarily attaches to any act done for the first time to meet a particular case, being that of the abeyance of whi c h was ter the barony of Daspen eer, minated by King James the First in 160', in order to ca rr y out the amicable suggested p rrangernen t themselves from the by the House of Lards for the purpose of r elieving duty of deciding in favour of en° of the two claimants of the barony of Abeig venny ; that art undue precedence sprears to be given to the person in whose ravour an abey ance for many generatio• s is trrrninatel over other baron , of an c i en t d escen t i n h er iting their titles through a long series of ances t ors ;—thus, in the first case refereed to, when in 1764 an abeyance of 353 years was terminated, the Lord Botetowrt then summoned sat as third lord only of_ that na me, and yet took precedence before the 17 t h L or d Audley and the 15th Lord Stourton ;—and humbly pray ing her Majesty that her Majesty will be graciously pleased to consider whether it is expedient to adhere to the esta blished custom of referring all petitions of persons claim ing peerages to the Home of Lords in any c 'se in which it shall appear from such petitions, or any report of the At torney-General thereon, that the peerage claimed is in abeyance and has been so for more than years; and that her Majesty may be further grac i ously pleased to act in relation to such peerages in such manner as may appear expedient to her Majesty." Lord CAMPBELL said, that the only remedy seemed to be to declare that after a peerage had been for a cer tain number of years in abeyance it should not be claimed. Otherwise right must be done ; and their lord ships could not refuse a claimant his rights by saying it was inconvenient to do him justice. He did not think the rights of the peerage would be impaired if it were laid down that a peerage should be no longer claimed after it had been 100 years in abeyance. The motion was then agreed to. TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION WITH INDIA. Lord WODEHOITSf in rising, pursuant to notice, to ask her Majesty's Government their intentions re specting the establishment of telegraphic communication with India, said, that three distinct lines of communi cation bad been proposed, of which that from Ragusa to Corfu and Alexandria seemed free from many of the ole jections to which the others were exposed. At the same time it was desirable that as many of these lines shoulo ne constructed as possible in order that we might have several independent means of communication with India. In the Eastern portions of the route our choice seemed to lie between two lines—one from Bassora to Kurra chee, and the other along the line of the Red Sea. The efficiency of the first depended upon the Turkish Go vernment, and he was not convinced that it would be a satisfactory mode of communication with India, the main objection being that the line was at the mercy of the Arabs who inhabited the wild country through which it passed. He did not mean to say that the telegraph was not carried through districts in India where the tribes were quite as wild, but there was a great difference between the Governments of Turkey and India. It was said that the safety of this line might be secured by sub sidising the Arab tribes. If the line were being made by ea English company the Arabs might be subsidised ny their, but at present the Turkish Government were construct;og the line, which was an object of jealousy to the Arabs, and the Ottoman Government might not have the influence necessary to maintain it. If the Turkish Government could succeed in making the line it was very desirable that it should be constructed, yet, of the two, the line by way of the Red Sea seemed most likely to form an efficient mode of communication with India. The objections were principally of an engineer ing character. (A Noble Lord—Jeddah 7) The Arabs on the Red Sea might be unfriendly, but the line would be carried along the bottom of the sea. The engineer ing difficulties in the Red Sea being surmounted he be lieved there would be no great difficulty in carrying the line from the south-east end of the peninsula to Kurra chee in Bombay, and th i s he had no doubt would be the most satisfactory and secure mode of communicating with India. The question was, how this line was to be made t He believed that the pieoper course would be for the Government to make it at the public expense. They would then hold in their hands the key of the communi cation between India and Europe. It was not very credit able to the energy and enterprise of this country and of the Government that, at a time when telegraphic com munication with India was of vital importance to the interests of this country, not only was no line in course of construction, bat no project had been adopted which promised the speedy execution of a line of telegraphic communication, (Hear.) The Earl of DONOUGH MORE agreed with the noble lord in the importance of the subject, but he was unable to give him any special information that had not been already laid before Parliament. It was, no doubt, desir able that as many lines should be made as possible, but it was important that there should be one line, and the question was which line of telegraphic communication ssi - ,h hare could he s scared in the shortest time. When the line of the Austrian Government from Ragusa to 9.lexandria should be completed there would be a tele graphic communication from London to Suez, because a line now existed between Alexandria and Suez. Unfor tunately the Government had not been able to make an arrangement with the Austrian Government with regard to this. line. There were some pciiiits in dispute betweee the two Governments, and no abiolate agreement had yet been cume to. The telegraphic communication between Constantinople and Bussorah was to be made by an Eng lish company, which had obtained the consent and support of the Ottoman Government. He admitted that portions of the line might be exposed to the attacks of hostile Arabs; but he believed that between Constantinople and Mosul no seen difficulties would be encountered. The danger lay between Mosul and Bagdad, from the latter of which Maces it was intended to carry the telegraph in the bed of the Tigris to Bussora,b, and thence by a submarine cable through the Persian Gulf t) Kurrachee. For his own part he was disposed to think ghat the route by the Persian Gulf was preferable to that by the Red Sea. Ie the first place, it was much shorter; and the experience with the Atlantic cable hardly warranted the anticipa• time that a submarine line could be laid down fer so great a length as that of the Red Sea. In addition to this the depth of water in that sea was very various, and iti bed was full of coral reefs. The Persian Gulf presented none of these difficulties. There were no great inequalities of bottom, and no coral reefs • and the gulf was studded with islands, on which, as they were under the authority of our ally the Imaum of Muscat, we might easily este blish repeating stations, and over which the telegraph might be carried on poles—an advantage which we should not possess in the Red Sea. There was under the consideration of the Government another project—viz., to lay a submarine cable from the southern coast of Beg• land to Gibraltar, from Gibraltar to Malta, and thence to Alexandria, so that the whole line might be under our own control. This was a subsidiary project, and one which c.mlel not be expected to be carried out immedi ately ; but under all the circumstances, we should, within a reasonable p:rziod, have established telegraphic communication between London and B)mbay and Cal cutta. Lord STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE was glad to hear that her Majesty's Government intended to encou rage, and at far as possible to facilitate, the cons'ruction of an independent line of telegraphic communication. The noble lord referred to the engagements made by the Turkish Government fur the establishment of telegraphic communication in that country, but as be spoke with his back to the gallery his remarks were almost entirely in audible. He was understood to say that it was desirable that the Government should encourage the construction of a telegraph by the Red Sea route as we '1 as by that of Persia, and to impress upon their lordships the import ance of our having more than one line of communication with India. Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY said that if he was rightly informed, the Directors of the East India Com pany had consented to take ander their own manage ment the construction of the submarine line from Bueso rah to Kurracbee, and probably the new Indian Govern ment would adopt a similar course. For his own part he was inclined to think that, notwithstanding the danger from the Arabs, which there was reason to hope would he diminished by the presence at B gdad of so energetic a governor as Omar Pasha, the line by the Per sian Gulf would be the best of those proposed. At the same time he agreed with the noble lord that it vsas de sirable that we should have more than one line of com munication with India. The question then ateeze how we could best communicate with Alexandria, whether from Malta or by means of the Austrian line from Ragusa to Corfu: If he understood the noble earl rightly negotia tions were still pending with the Austrian Government as to our use of the last mentioned line, and nothing had yet been settled. In the event of the telegraphic line in the Mediterranean going through British possessions, he trusted that the entire control would be placed in the hands of tee English, and not in those of any foreign Government. If the attempt to lay the electric cable in the Atlantic again failed, and the Agamemnon should return home with a sufficient length of wire for the pur pose, he would recommend that she should be at once sent out to lay it down between Malta and Alexandria. This could be accomplished iu a very economical manner and he shoull be glad to see such a line in the possession of her Majesty's Government. It had always seemed to him a mistake not to make telegraphic communication part of the postal system of this country. Those lines could be maintained at a very moderate expense, and made even to contribute to the national resources. BANKRUPTCY LAW. The LORD CHANCELLOR, on rising, according to notice, to call their lordships' attention to this subject, said that though there was a very widespread feeling in favour of some amendment in the law of bankruptcy, yet the opinions entertained as to the mode in which that amendment shouldrefboerer ridbeo wunedreervtaorcikoutsheantdasckonof fficting. Any cne, the reforming this branch of the2awfmust expect to be be sieged on all sides by eugsgaesntrinsswyr,orms,parnadctifcraolmmdeenbtaonrds theorists, frommerchant ng a whom we were entitled ti tl ed to it w be beard a asu9 c d baeu credi tors, bj ect. a o f Underthose circumstanceshis learned friegn'd p ther hap, less a matter of surprise in Attorney General, in the midsth that . his _!tami multifarious occu pations, should have been so long f on this important question than that i n the end h measure e should 'hive been enabled to produce a bi ll in a form which might be submitted to their lordships' approval. Nor was it to be wondered at if, after the measure had been prepared by the industry and ability of his learned friend, those who were to be responsible for it should, while as- Renting to its leading features, yet object to other—and those not unimportant—parts of it. In 1849 a bill to consolidate the bankruptcy law was introduced, and after the most careful consideration passed under the auspices of Lord Brougham, to whom the country was greatly indebted for his services in this direction. Not more than four years afterwards, however, de fects seriously impairing the efficiency of that Ac: wer3 d moven d in its practical working, and a commission to inquire into its operation was accord ingly appointed in August, 1853. In April, 1854, the commissioners made their report, recommending various alterations in the law, some ef which had since then been carried into effect. Many of their other suggestions, however, had not yet been adopted, and some of them were embodied in the bill which he was now about to lay on the table. He was not presumptu,ti enou4h to anticipate a complete aepfescence on the part of their lordships in the bill in its present shape. He invited friendly, and even hostile, criticism, because the qu o , teen was not a party one, and the earnest desire enter tained on all sides must be to make whatever mea7ure 'as ultimately pr.s , ed as perfect as possible for its pur pose. Fie now wialFrl 'rather to point out the l-ailing principles on which the Government meant to proc..eed in reard to this itnpor tant subj , ct than to ask their lord hips to agree to details which were b oth numereu3 and entitled to matureEconsthratien. Th s bill combined amendments with consolidation. It was necessary in all questions of law reform to determine whether they ought to unite those two objects iu the Berne hid. It seemed advisable—though his mind was not de finitively made up on this point—to pursue the course recently taken with respect to the law of cepybold. Ma terial amendments baying been made in that law, as be understood, a measure was now in preparation for its consolidation. His intention was to give their lordships a raere index of the present bill instead of a minute de scription of its detaile. Supposing the question were put at the onte st , what would be the most desirable amend ment of the . b;mkrupt law, and that which would be most acceptable t o the commercial community, he would refer their lordshig s for an answer to the important petition he had lately presented from no fewer than 4,000 mer chants and t rankers of the city of London, who put pro ininfantly fors, and their earnest wish that, some eaect i ou s hould be given to the arrangement 01 debts by li q uidation under the superintendence of in spectors. In that suggestion lay the principal key to the alea.sure which he was about to introduce. There were Provisions in t1a. 1 .8 bill which would enable creditors te avoid going throtigh the expensive course of proceeding in the Bankruptcy Court, in which, as their lordship knew, there was a per tentage upon the estate of ever 3 insolvent debtor who went into the court, and in which the creditors had very little power over the proceed ings, which were entirely under the control of the official assignee. By the provisions of this bill either the credi tor or the debtor might proceed to the Court of Bank ruptcy and there petition for an order with a view to liquidation. When the petition was presented the debto, immediately received a protection from the Court, am; was bound instantly to prepare a schedule of his debts and assets. A meeting Of creditors was then to be calku within three or four days, at which meeting the cred►• tors were to decide whether the estate of the bankrup should be wound up by means of liquidation, and in whai manner ; and if three-fourths in value and number of the creditors agreed that the estate shoull be wound up in that manner, that agreement should be binding on all of them. They might then proceed to the Bankruptc% Court to obtain an order of liquidation in the manna , %greed upon between them, and to appoint in opectora, and the debt , r might be called upon to assist. The whole matter went on completely under their con •rol and management, but they were not confined t , the particular arrangement which had bean agreed upon, because if, in the course cf the investigation of the affairs of the bankrupt, it should ba found that a different ar- rangement was advisable, then they would change the arrangement, of course with the consent of the maj.~• rity of the creditors ; or if the debtor should turn out to be refractory, or if for any other reason it should be thought desirable that the affairs should be wound up in bankruptcy, they might abandon the arrangement alto gether and proceed to ask for an adjudication. So that in this manner the whole affairs of the bankrupt would be completely within the power of the creditors. There were other provisions of minute detail which would enable this machinery to work most completely and satis factorily. Those provisions would not in the slightest de gree interfere with the mode of winding up the affairs of an insolvent debtor, which was now very much resorted to, namely, deeds of arrangement and composition. That he regarded as a most important feature in this bill. Then the question arose how were they to deal with non-tradersee At times a desire had been expressed that all distinc tion between traders and non-traders should be abo lished, and that both alike should be subject to proceed ings in bankruptcy. He had very great doubts whether it would be desirable to abolish that distinction. As at present advised, he did not think it would be advisable, but at the same time be thought it was proper that where a person who was not in trade had incurred debts which he was unable to pay, and where he went on wasting that substance which in justice should be distributed among his creditors, they ought to have the power of enforcing a just and hone-t distribution of his effects. It would accordingly be found that provision was made for enabling the creditors to compel a liquidation of the debts of non-trading debtors by means of the machinery provided with re. pert to traders. But that provision was guarded in a certain way, and for this reason it ap peared to him that it would not be red vi,abie, where i a debt was merely owing, that the creditor should go at once to the Bankruptcy Court and insist on the non-trading debtor being brought into the court and the whole of his effects being distributed in satisfac tion of his debts. That proviiion was therefore this , guarded :—Where a creditor had a judgment upon which he could issue execution, or where there had eeen an order or decree of a court, for the payment of money, which had been served upon the debtor and had not been paid at a certain time, then the creditor might go to the Bankruptcy Court and present a petition for liquidation and obtain an order, I whereupon the non-trader was brought within the juris diction of the Bankruptcy Court and the machinery of this liquidation. In that matter he would be compelled ;o de justice to his creditors, which, if he was an honest man, he would be disposed to do without the necessi , y of having recourse to these measures. There was also ~ his provision--that a person who was not a creditor might, if he pleased, voluntarily submit himself to the proceedings of the Bankruptcy Court. There was ano ther subject which, as their lordships knew, bad occu pied a great deal of public attention,—namely, the pro eriety of sense measure for administering in the Bankruptcy Court the estates of insolvent debtors after their decease. There would be found in this bill various clauses woich WE re familiarly known as dead men's clauses. Tee subject was full of difficulty. It was very difficult indeed to know under what circumstances it woull be 1 desirable that the Bankruproy Court should have the 1 adininii.tra ioa of the estate of a deceased creditor instead of the Court of Chancery, which had now jurisdiction to administer or distribute the estate through the medium of a creditor's suit. Their lordships were aware that where there was an adjudication against a debtor io bankruptcy and he died the next day, the Bankruptcy Court, ha‘iug possession as it were cf his property, could administer it after his death. And therefore this bill : provided, with regard to the effects of a deceased insolvent debtor, that if there bad been au act of bank ruptcy committed a month before his death, and if there were an application for adjudication within a month of his death, the Bankruptcy Court should then have the power of administering his property. There was also in ibis bill an important provision as to the mod . of deal ing with partnerships where a firm became insolvent. It was proposed to treat the firm itself as a person, and to allow a fiat in bankruptcy to issue against -he firm in the same manner in which it might issue agaieat indivi dual partners, and to apply to it the system which ex isted with regard to corporate and Cpagi•corporate bodies, so as to enable the creditors to compel individual part ners to satisfy the joint liabilities of the firm. At the , same time that this was a new system it would not in terfere with the old one as to insolvent individual part ners, where the firm itself remained insolvent. The sub ject of joint-stock companies had of course occupied a great deal of public attention. Their lordships were aware that those companies were amenable to the bank ruptcy laws, but that the law relating to them could hardly be deemed a part of the bankruptcy code, because they were governed by an Act of Parliament relating exclusively to them. The law provided for the winding-up of joint-stock companies by the e 'tart of Chancery, and for the administration of their effects by the Court of Bankruptcy. There had been a great contest between the authorities upon that subject, and the Legislature had endeavoured to retrieve all doubts upon it by bringing the two streams, as it were, into one re eeptacle. It was proposed to take away the business of winding-up from the Court of Chancery, and to confer it upon the Bankruptcy Court, He believed that would be deemed upon the whole to be a very de-irable alters- ' tion. It was proposed that the Bankruptcy Court should have, in addition to its existing powers, all the powers which existed under the Winding-op Acts, and that joint-stock companies should have the same facilities with regard to the liquidation of their debts as was afforded in the case of debtors and creditors in the man ner already mentioned. If his noble and learned friend Lord Brougham were then in the house, he would pro bably say, t‘ What are you going to do with the Cou n ty Court judges I Are you going to give them any in creased jurisdiction on this subj sot I' , He thought that l ' the county courts hardly possessed she machinery which I rendered it desirable that they should have a more ample jurisdiction in these matters than they had at present, and he did not propose, therefore, to throw an y portion of this bnsiness upon them. In the petition to which he had already referred, from the merchants and bankers of London, it was suggested that, all distinctions between insolvency and bankruptcy should be abolished, and that traders and non-traders should be subjected to one common law. He did not know that the matter was quite ripe for that proposition, but he proposed that the vacancies which took place in the Insolvent Court as they occurred should not be filled up. lie believed that the process of liquidation provided in the bill would reduce the business of the Couve very considerably, and that in a short time they might be able to put an end to the Insolvent Court altogether, one Court being, suffi cient for the business it would then have to transact. The bill further provided that a good deal of the business of the Bankruptcy Commissioners, being purely of an ad ministrative character, should be transacted In chambers, where it might be conducted more conveniently and lees expensively than in open court. There were some of the officers of the court to whom it was necessary to advert. His noble and learned friend Lord Brougham had been extremely desirous that the official assignees should be paid partly by salary and partly by fees, an I ha I ob jected alioarethser to their being paid by salary alone. The bill did not at present touch that question, because it was quite uncertain what the effect of the proceed ings for the liquidation of the affairs of an insolvent debtor might be, and it was very possible that it might remove so much of the business from the Bankruptcy Court as to leave the official assignees without sufficient emolument from fees. It would be time to consider phis subject more in detail when they knew exactly what would be the amount of business. i With respect to the brokers, they were not appointed under the provisions of an y Act of Parliament, but were selected by each Commissioner to attend his court, having the duty im posed upon them of t a k in g a valuation, in ever y instance, of a bankrupt's effects. The valuation of a broker was a very costly and utterly useless proceeding, and it was for a . proposed , t i h u e tt b i , i , l n l to ei t a h b e e r lis u h n i d t e altogether, o an ri ( t l y to o pro videftheinithoy, moot e aa,i sa sanctionble .of the An d inasmuchas as might tho b s e e considered t dres o r r acvd ly mfris-, and had no legal claim to their ( ffices, th - y could re not appointed under any Act of Psrlia have' no title to compensatien on the abolition of their officer. There was another matter which Lad led to i m a t u e c — h Llitigation, a withnd r o e n s p a e - c h t i c t li o t it h e w e a i s a s necessary to n of l e.gis - certi ficates. As the law now stood there acre area classes of certificates—first, second, and third—which were awarded arc .rdieg to ',I) suppo ed merits or demerits of the bankrupt. Lord CAMPBELL—Do away with them altogether. 1 The LORD CHANCELLOR centinurd,—His noble and learned friend had anticipated hon. The bill pro posed to do exactly what his noble and learned friend ' had suggested. The commissioners took different views of what constituted morel delinquency. Then came appeals to the Lord Chancellor or to the Lord Justices, and a great amount of time was wasted in considering , the kind of certificate which a bankrupt ought to receive. The bill a b o li s h e d t h e di st i nct i on. Th er e was only one other point—but it was a very important one—to which it was necessary to direct attention, and Gat was wi , h regard to the offences of bankrupts and ioselverote, and their punishment. He was astonished to fit}d that the .~ y THE Sir N,_ LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 31, 1558. bankers and merchants of the city of London desired to live the commissioners power to punish fraudulent ,ankrupts or - insolvents by sending them to the House ,f Correction. Now, he must say that he never would consent to invest any man with the arbitrary power of ending a person to prison without the intervention of a miry ; and therefore he could not consent to that propc itiou, although he might observe in passing that his hon. end learned friend who prepared the bill originallyseemed o have given his adhesion to it. The offences pecu ;ar to bankrupts, such as the falsification of accounts, he concealment of property, and the like, would re inira a great deal of consideration, because the language .f the bill as originally framed was not sufficiently pre ise to exclude from the operation of the punishment limes various dealings which he believed were con idered to be perfectly legitimate in the city of London —among others, the accepting of accommodation bills. 're mentioned this in the hope that during the recess .heir lordships would direct their particular attention to his portion of the bill. He himself should devote all he time in his power to it, and should endeavour, as mutiously and guardedly as he could, to frame those lausee so as to meet cases of real delinquency. He loped that he bad kept his word with their lordships, end that he should not be considered to have entered too ninntsly into details. He had endeavoured to make his remarks serve rather as an index to the bill, pointing ut the more important provisions which it contained. Ile trusted that those who took an interest in the sub ject would give him the benefit of their assistance and advice in considering most carefully the clauses of the ill, in order that at the commencement of next session the Government might be enabled to introduce a measure which would prove beneficial to the public, and would receive the ready acceptance of the whole com mercial c Anmunity. (Hear, bear.) Lord CAMPBELL would cont .nt himself with express ing his entire approbation of the course which had been aken in this matter by hia noble and learned friend on the wooleaek, in having deliberately considered the sub ject, and having favoured their lordships with an mar line of the measure which he proposed. This certainly was no party question, and all must be anxious to as sist his noble and learned friend in framing his measure so that it should be generally acceptable to the public. Ho tru-ted that his noble and learned friend would con -dder whether means could not be adopted for abolishing the distinction be".ween traders and non-traders, and he suggested t'let a p-rusal of the Scottish bankruptcy laws might enable bim to arrive at a solution of that ques tion. The Scotch laws upon the subject generally were worthy of consideration ; for be believed that under them the expense of working the commission and dis tributing the effects of a bankrupt did not exceed a charge of 7 per cent. upon the estate, al contrasted with about 30 per cent. under the English law. Lord CRANWORTFI expressed his satisfaction at the lucid statement of his noble and learned friend on the woolsack. In most of the propositions of his noble and learned friend he entirely concurred, though, of course, he could not be expected to give in his assent to all the &tails without further consideration. He was gla 1 that the noble lord proposed to amend be fore consolidating, for of course until it was settled what the law on the subject was to be it was impos. sable to proceed to consolidate it. He sincerely hoped ;hat in the course of the next session a comprehensive measure of amendMent and consolidation on this subject should pass into law. The bill ,s then vad a first time. CONSOLIDATED FUND APPROPRIATION BILL. This bill was read ;third tine and passed. The Cumir, - r 2;) Life Commons agreed to the Lords' amendments in the Local Govern ment Bill ; that the C mmons did not persevere in their eb;ections to the amendments in the Government of India Bi.l oa which their lordshlp3 ineistE d ; that the C , rnmons disagreed from the Lords' amendments in the Divorce sold Matrimonial Ciuses Act Amendment Bill. Torir lordships the❑ res , I,ed not to insist on their am.ranenis in the last measure. The house adjourned shortly before 9 o'cl)ok till a qua:ter to 2 on Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS-(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock. THE OPIUM TRADE. Numerous petitions were presented condemning the opiu o trade in Chinn. ELECTIONS BY VOTING PAPERS. Mr. ROEBUCK pregented a petition from a gentle man who advocate , ' elections by voting papers TRUSTEES AND EXECUTORS. Mr. ROEBUCK asked the Attorney-General if it was the intenti‘ n 4,f Government t 3 bring in a bill next session of Parliament to relieve trustees and executors from the present severe laws affecting them, and to en. large their pavers for the better administration of trust estates. The SOLICITOR-GENERA.L, after referring to the qusstion, and what had been done in respect to it, Said it would be somewhat presumptuous in him afterthe difficul ties felt in so many quarters to make any promise on the subject. He should be prepared, if it lay in his power, to remove the vbjections feit, and if he succeeded he should be ready to submit a bill to the attor ion of the house next session, but only on the supposition that he thought the difficulty could be overcome. RETURNS. Numerous unopprwed returns were ordered. SERGEANT BRODIE. In reply to Mr. CONINGHAM, General PEEL said it was impossible for him to say what private communications had passed between his predecessors and Sergeant Brodie, but no official docu ment cr remonstrance frone Sergeant Brodie rat in the office of the department over which be (General Peel) presided. Sergeant Brodie was appointetl f iceman f the saddlery department, subject to the came terms of distnival as others, and it was not customary to make allowance for anything that was done privately before quitting office. Sergeant Brodie was dismissed cn the 18;h of September, and so far from refusing thp• gratuity offered to him, he (General Peel) had seen a receipt from Sergeant Brodie, dated September 19th, acknowledging its receipt. The alterations suggested by Sergeant Brodie in the saddlery had been submitted to the Insp , ctor-General of Cavalry, who be 1 decided against their adoption, and it was not customary to giveremuneration in cases where the suggestions were not alopted. With regard to the last question, be had to state that Captain Smith received 101. a day as salary in addition to his half-pay. SUBALTERNS OF THE ARMY. Colonel FREESTUN gave notice that early next session he should call the attention of the house to the condition of zho :-übalterns of the army. • In reply to a question from Mr. CRAWFORD, Mr. HAMILTON said the answer from the Austrian Government with reference to the telegraph from Corfu to Alorandria had not yet been received, BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENT LAWS. Mr. NICOLL asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to lay upon the table of either house the long-promised bill to amend the law relating to bankruptcy at d insolvency, so that members might have an opportunity to consider the same doting the recess. Toe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he underitood the Lord Chancellor intended to introduce a bill of this kind that night in the Mai4e of Lords. TELEGRAPH TO INDIA. Mr. WILSON asked the Chancellor of the Exche quer, what progress had been ina d e. i n arrangemen ts f o r andria, and thence to India, since completing e a a n t ,3 telegraphic Aiex he dates of the last papers upon the subj,ct, recently laid upon the table of the house ? Trio CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the Turkish Government had granted concessions for carry ing the telegraph from Alexandria to Aden, and her Majesty's Government was in communication with that purpose, with a view of continuing it on from Aden to Inuia. It the negotiat4ins were concluded he had every reas , n to hope and believe that the line would be com menced in the autumn. (Hear, hear.) TRACTION ENGINES. Sir DE LACY EVANS asked the President of the j e iria, Board whether it was intended to act on the strong recommendations by the official authorities at Woolwich of Bray's and Boydell's traction engines, as being likely, in the opinion of these authorities, to prove of utility to the army in India in facilitating the trans , and stores. po Li rt o o r f d tr s o r op A s N , e L rt E il v lerY letter was written from the Board of Contr ol to the said, that on 22d of this month a Directors at the East India II , use, containing an official Import on these traction engines, suggesting that four of them should be sent to India, viz., two to Calcutta and two to Bombay. Ho had not yet received a reply from the Court of Directors. There was no doubt as f 0 the value of the principle of these engines, but there was as to whether the working construction was fit for Con veSiati6t, of bevy stores in India. THE CASE OF MRS. TURNER. Mr TITE asked the hon. member for Hereford, as one of the Commissioners in Lunacy, whether their attention has been called to the case of Mrs. Turner, lately a lunatic patient in Acombe House, near York ; and, if so, what steps had been taken by the commis eioners in regard thereto. Colonel CLIFFORD said the attention of the com missioners was called to the case through the news• Papers on Saturday, and on Monday last they instituted an inquiry int r the circumstances, and commissioners were now sittingat York f a- that purpose. (Fleur, hear.) MONUMENT. T a . Works Lord T E R L E C EI W O B a s L k L e d i N t he T F ° ir N s t C N ! whether, as he bad announced his intention of causing a full-sized model of the Wellington monument to be made by Mr. Stephens, and placed on the proposed site be f'ire anything more is finally decided upon, he wouli give tho public an opportuai , y of viewing the work of imy , rber sculptor who might be willing, on his own rc- F - poasibility, to make a design anti full-sized m.)del the mor.u..;ent ? Lord J. MANNERS sail, a looting the noble lore's c , n , truetimi of my words on the occa , ion referred to, he answered his question in the negative. Lard ELCI - 1.0 said t e should early nsxt session take the sense of the house upon the point raised is his eines. tion. that, THIS EVENING'S BUSINESS.• - Tile CHANCELLORcf the EXCHEQUER said in c: n; of the state of puhlic huiiness, he proposed to go on with the orders of the day ht ore he proposed the afijournment of the house till Monday. Mr. V. SMITH objected, but did not propose any amendment. GOVERNMENT OF INDIA. DILL. On the motion for considering the Lords' amendments to this bill, Mr. V. SMITH rose to ask certain quePtions con nected with India, but at that period of the sess'on it was not his intention to raise a discussion on the affairs of India, though he certainly regretted that, notwithataud ing the house had been occupied dui log a great part of the latter end of the session with the discussion relating to the government of India, there has, in fact, been no discussion on their present and future relations with that part of the empire. The first question he now wished to put was connected with the position of the army in India at the present moment. He wished to learn from the noble lord the President of the Board of Control what was the amount of the force at present in India. When the late Government left office it appeared from the best autho rities that it was necessary to have 80,000 European troops in India, and that was about the number calcu lated to be there at that time. It was then calculated that, owing to the insalubrity of the climate, accidents in warfare, disease, and deaths in action, reinforcements ought to be provided to the amount of 20,000 in the course of the year. The noble lord had stated that since January last 17,000 men had been sent to India ; bat, as no troops could be added to this establishment of In die unless upon application of the East India Company, he wished to know whether the directors of the Com pany had applied to the Government to add to the forces in India owing to advices they had received, and a de sire on their part that the establishment should be in creased, or whether those 17,000 only constituted the necessary amount to supply vacancies caused by disease and deaths is action. That was an important point, be cause they really had no information on the subject ex cept from the columns of the newspapers. He made no complaint on that score, because be knew how difficult it was to get information from India during the hurry con sequent upon actions ; but he thought that by this time it should be known what was the amount of the European troops and of the rebel troops in that country. They knew the number of regiments which had mutinied, and he believed that no additional levies had been added to the troops which had mutinied, and the Contin gents of the native States which had also mutinied. The last accounts from India appeared to him to be, so far as they went, very satisfactory, but the house could not help observing that, though the British arms were vic torious everywhere, and though the mutinous troops were defeated and dispersed, the latter were not de stroyed, but rallied agrin, returned to their former scenes of action, and retook places. Everything indi cated, indeed, not only present and immediate resist ance, but long and, he feared, protracted resistance. Therefore, it was desirable that Parliament should be in• formed what was the actual condition of the British troops in India, and what additional amount was in tended to be sent oat. His next question related to another important subject, namely, the organiseitou of the Military Commission which the noble lord had issued. On a former occasion he observed that the composition of that commission had been to a certain degree altered, and that the civil element had been put on it. That was an important element, and he was sorry to see it omitted, though no doubt there might be eat is • factory reasons for the omission. The public, however, wished to be informed of the nature and powers of the commission. He was told that the Governor-Gene ral had i-sued circulars, through Colonel Durrant, to procure information, and no doubt the informa tion received in answer to those circulars might be useful in respect to tt e future organisation of the army. He wished to know what was intended on that paint. The sepoy element seemed to have broken down, and some people veer anx:ous to introduce the Sikhs and Goorkae into the army. Bat those were troops which required great supervision on the part of our own troops, and though the Sikhs, cornbinii g with the English in action, were under present circumstances poweiful allies, they might be hereafter dangerous ene mies. It was, therefore, doubtful whether any ell those troops could be trusted alone. That was an important question, as hitherto the British had been able to keep the country by means of the troops they had con quered in action. It the comtnission could really sit at oresent and go into all these details, it might not be a bad commission, but if the commission were to be insti tuted, for the Government to rely on hereafter, that was not a course worthy of a British Minister, and one which he trusted that the noble lord would not pursue. (Hear.) He hoped that there would be men on the nettle lord's Council competent to institute a plan for the re-oganisa tion of the Indian army much better than any cominis -ion. There was plenty of information on the subject, compri-ing the opinions of Sir H. Lewrence, General Jacob, aria General Napier. The third subject on which he wished to obtain information referred to our fiscal 1 relations with India. At an early period of th e present' eeeeionati Act was passed enabling the East India Com pany to borrow 8,000 0001. between the time at which the measure became law and the month of April, 1859. That Act contained a clause providing that the Com pany should present to Parliament at the cot= acemeut of the next session a statement of their finances, showing what amount they had borrowed and how much re mained in their hands. He thought, however, that the noble lord might be able to inform the house what amount the East India Company ad actually borrowed up to this time, and whether he believed the amount they were emp wired to bcerow would cover the expenses likely to be incurred up to the period referred to in the Act. In order to render this information cam p!ete, the house ought also to know what amount of bills had been drawn upon India. The usual practi ce was to receive money from m-rchants in this country, giving them bills upon India, and the transactions of , his nature amounted to about 4,000,0001. annually. That system was discontinued when the act was passed, as it was thought imprudent to draw upon the Indian finances at a time when money might be urgently re quired for the public service. If loans bad been nego tiated in India last year more sue essfully than during he previous year, it was probable that bills were not drawn upon India ia the usual method ; and he hoped the noble lord would be able to afford some information to the house upon that point. The last queetton lie wished to ask was whether any instructions bad been sent, or would be sent, to proclaim her Mejesty's name and authority in India, and to announce the intentions of the Government as to non-interference with tue re ligion of the natives. The noble lord had, on a firmer occasion, answered the first part of this question, by stating that it was his intention that a proclamation establishing government in the Queen's name should be issued is India. The noble lord did not state whether such proclamation would be sent from this country, but if it were not done, ho (Mr. Smith) thought instructions ought to be given to the Governor-General of India to ia ue greatest importance, upon which m i s u n de r standin g otherapaprrtocolfatnaio the his t l ,- le t s o tio th n at effect referre w dt i t delay. T o th a eu suLject,,f The, i p a r ) o p e r l e a s i g n a t t h i e o n n v t e h s e o Q f India cmsida-able change, but differ• might regard it as a means of i ntroducin g a n d for ci n g e nmw e aii lt i e' a tt t hw e ee r ao p nsu r ioll e ytd ia oa t n i nr e ioos a fe : ad m o'i i ue g ljr h yt The t ' be put upon it. Souse persons was be tb a e e r e ' ot e pa w n?e 6 d t such a mis anlihereo:stniostt—edtitrai t th i i n s Ch desirablehr s i o st m i Christianity e i t t xh y pal u ta p tn o ha n et ort triproclamation nl shouldid ipreventt • • of affairs in India there had been a disinclination to maintain the truth of our own religious faith, and that too great a deference had been paid to the countryao e p r i e a l t i e e n ads mis apprehension. direction the et her other well-founded h thatre li g i t o h n e o o f o th v e e r n n a m ti e v n e t s . 8 h ll ,, u e l t d b a e d r e „ f p e t r e s o t I na m e u m g h o t a i n t s a , d b v; p a b ro l elamation or otherwise, of declaring that, while they were fully prepared to maintain the Christian faith, they would be most jealeue of any interference with the reli gion of the natives, and would cautiously guard against any indiscretion in that respect on the pert of persons em ployed in the public service. He thought the noble lord might fairly take Parliament into his confidence upon these suijects, for upon him devolved a greater task than had periaaes fallen to the lot of any Minister —a task almost as great as that of founding a new empire in India. In his (Ur. V. Smith's) opinion the task of those who bad been engaged for two chilturies in establishing the Indian empire was less difficult than that which now devolved upon the Briti-h nation of re establishing that empire, the glory of which had been destroyed by the late mutiny, although be hoped it would still continue one of the most important and valu able possessions of the British Crown, Mr. STAPLETON said the noble lord the President of the Board of Control, in moving the second reading of the Government of India Bill, had stated that the arrangemen' 8 then contemplated with reeard to the non scientific branches of the Indian army were merely tem porary, and that the whole subject of the reorganisation of than army was to be referred to a commission ; and he begged to ask whether the members of the Council for the affairs of India to be appointed by Government would be appointed subject to any subsequent decision of Parliament with respect to appointments of cidetships ? Mr. RICH thought the observations of his right bon. friend (Mr. V. Smith) implied some distrust with regard to the proclamation which the noble lord had intimated his intention of issuing ; but he could only say, from the declarations which had been made by the noble lord in the course of the discussions on the India Bill, that in his opinion Parliament might entertain full and entire confidence that the noble lord, in deal ing with this great subject, would act with firmness and moderation, and would temper justice with mercy. His right hoe. friend (tlr. V. Smith) had totaely ignored a large body of our fellow-subjects in India, who had, with very trifling exceptions, thr iugheut most try ing circumstances maintained their loyalty—the armies of .Madras and Bombay. (Hear, hear) The right hon. gentleman had also ignored the loyalty of a number of the native princes, who had magna• ineously upheld B,i tish dominion. (Hear.) He felt confident, however, that the noble lord, while he a,serted the proud dominion of En - eland, would at the earns time recogn!ze the loyal spirit which had been manifested throughout India by large bodies of our Indian fellow-subjects. Lord STANLEY—The house is entitled to demand, and I think the pubtic may fairly expect to receive, some information upon these important questions to which thie right hon, member for Northampton (Mr, V. Smith) has referred ; and I ens glad he has aff tried me an op portunity of briefly stating to :he house what I believe to be the position of aflaira with regard to the points to which be has cal'el attention. In the first place, I have been asked as to the extent of the European fore at present in India, and I think the right hon. gentl , - man also inquired whether we could form any estimate of the strength of those bodi , os of inutoieers to whom our troops are opposed in the field. Now, upon the latter point I a-n afraid it is not possible for me, or indeed for any one even in India, to form an accurate judgment. It does appear that of late the organized insurrection has and generally avoicbng confi et try, eluding pursuit, s e u v r e g ry e n wh ts e a r r e e b s e c e a n defeated, t tered far a n b t thviTaaet throughout parties of thearmed cooni n _- with our troops. Under these circumstances it is utterly impossible for any ens to say what is the _strength of the mutineers. It is probably unkuewn, not only to any British general, but to any leader of the insurgence. (Hear, bear.) This is more likely to be the case, because I learn—not from any official report, bet from private letters—that at the time when the in surrection existed in a more organized form than I hope is the case at present, recruiting went on ra pidly among the insurgents, and that some of the revolted Sepoy regiments regularly enlisted new re cruits, forming in one instance a second battalion, with a view of preserving in some degree the military order and discipline to stitch they had been accusteteed in our service. As to the strength of our European force I am able to give a more satisfactory answer. ;The rigor non. gentleman stated a few nights ago that he had seen some account which represented the effec ive European force in India as being reduced to 26,000 men. I am happy to say that that account is very far below the reality. (Hear, hear.) I have obtained from the War D - pertinent the la'est return which they possess of ih strength of the Queen's army, and perhaps the beet course I can take wilt be to read, not the return al I have it, but a summary of the totals. The total number of Europeans in the Queen's army snaposed to be in India or on their way out was 78 416 ; but. from that it is fair to say there must be deducted 7,456 men who were reported sick at the time when these returns were made, and 11,059 were draughts on their way out. These troops will probably have arrived at the present time, and will constitute part of the effective s rength of the force, which will thus comprise nearly 71,000 men. The returns are not all of the same date ; some are dated the let of May, others the Ist of June ; and, of course, further deduct' s—l am afraid a con- iderab c red ucti —must be made for ca-uatties since that time. But the fact remains that the Queen's army at the date of the latest returns numbered nearly CO 000 effective men, and about 11,000 draughts on their way out. (Hear.) With regard to the Company's forces, I have obtained a memorandum from the East India House, which is made up partly by ac nal statements of facts and partly by estimate to the lit of July. It gives a total of 15.855 Company's troops (European). That number is made up, I should say, by adding tne troops embarked in June and July, arid now on their way ; but there is also a deduction of 1,192 for casualties, estimated upon the proportion of loss which has occurred up to the date of which we have informatien. I need not say that no estimate of this kind can be entirely reliable, and therefore the .papers which I quote must be looked upon as forming as approximate calculation only. We have thus, however, an estimated strength of 15 800 Company's troops and 71,000 Queen'. troops (all Europeans), making a total of between 86,000 and 87,000 Europeans ; and it is obvious that, after the largest deduction which it can be necessary to make (and I am afraid that deduction must be a heavy one) for losses sustained by service io the field and by sickness consequent on exposure since the date to which these returns refer—after, I say, making the largest anti most liberal deduction on that acceunt, we may still con eider that we have between 70 000 and 80,000 effective men certainly above 70,000. —fur service in India (Hear.) I was asked by the right hon. eentleman bow many of the men sent out since January last were, at the request of the directors of the C -mpany, added to the establishment in India, distinguishing th em, I sup- Pore, from the number of draughty and recruits ? On this point I have received a memorandum from the East India House, dated the 23d of this month, givin g e figures which I quoted in the hmise the otlise day. 1 teen P!: , .3 nearly 17,000 had been sent out between January and July. Tne exact number I find is 16 730, and of those all are drau g hts or recruits except 634 be ing eight companies of her Majority'. 57 u Re 4 imeni. Toe 16,000 are, therefore, draughts and recruits. Other regiments have been despatched fr an various parts of the world. The house will remember that at an early period of the insurrection application was made—not, accnrdieg to form, through the Board of Directors here, but direct y—at the Cape and other places, and there re quest's were, from the urgency of the occasion, acceded io without waiting for orders from home. Witty regard to the sec end question addresed to the by the right hon. gentleman, as to the objects of the c nnarission which is to inquire into the organisation of the Indian army, thinti I shall best reply by reading the heads of the inquiry upon which it 13 intended that that com miasion shall enter. They a- e "1. The terms on which the army of the East India Company are to be transferred to the Crown. " 2. The permanent force necessary to be maintained in the Indian provinces respectively after the restoration of tranquillity. "3. The proportion which European should bear to Native troops, in infantry, cavalry, and artillery respec tively " 4. How far the European portion of the army should be composed of troops of the line. taking India as part of the regular tour of service, and how ftr of troops raised for service iu India only. "5. In connexion with this question the best means of providing for the periodical relief of the former portion, and of securing the affieiency of the latter. "6. Whether it be possible to consolidate the European forces, so as to allow of exchange from one branch of the service to the other, and what re_uletions would be neces saryand practicable to effect this object with perfect ju tice to the claims of all officers now in the service of the East India Company ? "7. Whether there would be any admixture of Euro pean and native forces, either regimentally or by brigade? "8. Whether the local Eur o p ean f orce s h ou ld b e kept, up by draughts and volunteers from the line, or should be, as at present, separately recruited for in Great Britain ? "9. Whether it would be possible to raise any regiments in the colonies, either f or t emporary or permanent service in India i "10. Whether the native forces should be regular or irregular, or both, and if so, in what proportions? " 11. Whether any native artillery corps should be sanctioned? "12. Whether cadets sent out for service with nativo troops should in the first instance be attached to European regiments, to secure uniformity of drill and discipline ?" Tease are the neads of the inquiry proposed. As to the reference made to the (noddle& iou which has taken place in the constitution of the commission, it was origi nally considered desirable that, besides the civilians who are officially to sit upon it, there should be three other gentlemen of eminence in public life who should give it the benefit of their experience and of their services ; but from various circumstances, and more especially oon• eidering the time of year at which this commissi n was to sit—the first meeting havine taken place in the c ,urse of the present week, and the next being fire t for Tuesday—it was found so difficult to obtain the services of those who we desire should sit upon the eornnui-tsion that that part of he scheme was abandoned. It is quite true that an inquiry —the nature of which I de not exactly know—upon the same euttject is taking place in India ; hut though, of course, there are many advantages in iiistituti, g an investigation of that kind upon th e ' spot, one great disadvan age attends it— namely, that the great majority of those officers whose services would be most valuable are actively engaged, and are unable, therefore, to give their attention o it. Tnis objection does not apply in the same degree to those who have either retired from the service, or who, on the ground , f health, have lately returned from India, and I am happy to say we have many of that description w h os e advice and assistance will be most valuable. Be fore I leave the suject of the eommi-sion I will state that it is not intended and cannot be int eided, to lessen in any the slightest degree the responsibility which must devolve upon the Government for the settlement of this very large question. (Hear, hear.) The ultimate de cision, be it what it may, mu-t depend upon the re sponsibility of the Government of the day, and the re port of the commission of inquiry will carry with it no other weight than that which is derived from the eminence of its members, the experience and know ledge they bring to bear upon the subject, and the soundness of the reasons they employ. (Hear, hear.) I have been told that some arrangements woicia I pro posed on the second reading have been departed from, because patronage which formerly rested with the direc ors will henceforth be vested in the Crown Now, in recommending that proposition to the approval of the house, my wish was to carry on as far as possible the analogy of the syetein which actually exists ; and I confess I think the hon. member who referred to the subject, when he describes the mem bers of this Council as being taken entirely from one claw° of society, whereae members ef the Court of Dew tors were taken from quite another, has, to use the mildest term, entirely ovt ratated the case. Certainly a large and very valuable section of ail former Courts of Directors always censiwed of men of ledian service and experience ; but I m , y remind the house that there is in the bill as it stands an actual legal provision that a majority, and something more, of the Council should be taken from that same class. Then the same hon. mem ber asked me whether it was intended that the arrange ment with regard to the non-scientific military appoint. ments should be provisional only, and subject to the report of the commission, or whether it was i ten led as a pro:lament arrangement. Now, it is obvious that what one Act of Parliament has sanctioned another at any future period can overthrow. As to the objection that compensation might be claimed where any appoint ments of this kind were taken away, we have shown. I think, what our fee ings are upon that point by the 14th cleuse of the bill, in which it is stated expressly that if the Council itself were abolished within 10 years no claim for compensation could arise. (Hear.) Naturally, as discussion has gone on we have seen our way more clearly, but I do not think it is proper—though, of course, it is in the power of Parliament to deal with the subject as it will—that any measure taken fof the re organization of the Indian army should involve a change in the manner in which the first app 'intments will be made. I teink the question of first appoin.mente, and that of the discipline and reorganization of the army afterwards, are distinc questions, and that it is quite possible to deal with the one without touching the other. Now, with regard to the financial part of the quest on connected with India. to which the right hon, gentleman bas referred, 1 think I can test satisfy the wishes of hon. members by reading an exirac which I have re c&ved from the Ea=t India House. That extract states at, 4` The Indian Loan Act conferred the power of borrowing Which has been already used to the extent of „, 4,421,000 Leaving yet available the power of borrowing Add, R 3,579,000 13111(13 : Unissued portion of 7,000,001, May b 3 issued to replace those noti fied for discharge Ditto, to replace those now depo sited with Bank of England, which will be available on loan being paid off in October, 1858, 1 ,000,000 ------ 2,789,500 May be borrowed on debentures and bonds ,„ £6,368,500 T.lO disbursements of the 11,,me Treasury to the 31st of January, HO, in excess of the present cash balance, are estimated at £5,172,201:1 " The means of the Home Treasury are therefore estimated to be more than adequate to meet , the disbursements until next session, without including the sums that way roaliged for Court's bills on India, or from the sale of Exelequer bills and bonds now in hand (1,598,900%) " In this estimate the receipts from railway com i .;auies are not included." (Eli a , bear) From a consideration of those fienres, which de not no ode the rec. ipt from railway cemnahi ee t I think i- will t e found that no -tie ement which I have to m•lre in ens eer to the right hoe, gentleman is eatis fectory so far as the fina. real part of tee qneetion ie cen earned. (Hear, hear.) I new come to the question which the right hon. gentleman has put to me isi refer ence to the proclamation which he id of opinion i t wo uld be desirable to i-sue when the transfer of the g overn • meat of India to the Crown has been completed. In reply to the right hon. gentleman's observations upon that point, I can or ly say that, both on account of the importanc e of the occasion and also to guard a g ainst misconstruction, I think that th t transfer ought to be in some manner f virally notified to the people of India. (Hear, hear.) So far as our interference with the •el gion of the natives is concerned, I shall content myself with observing that there is in a recant despatch c i f Lord Eilenborough's, dated the 13th of April, a PaP sage which I shalt quote, simply because it expresses in language clear , r and more forcible than any ee wbicb 1 could give utterance my own feelings and that of Government of which I am a m em b er upon the su bjects (The noble lord then read an ext r a c t f rom t h e d espa tch in qu-stion, stati ng th a t th e G overnment wou ld be guided by a p o li es o f neu t ra lit y an d goo d f a i t h i n re' ference to ma t ters a ff ec ti ng t h e re li gion o f the nat i ves of India, and m os t earnes tl y ca lli ng upon a l l the author ities in India not to afford the slightest pie cause for the sus the ion that that policy had undergone or would undergo an, change.) (Hear, hear.) T. ose are the opinions of her Majeeey's present advisers. (Hear, hear.) That PO ; sag- expieses sentiments i n w hi c h I f ul l y concur, an d deem it highly desirable that, whether by proclamatio n or by some other means, the fullest assurance should he elven to the natives of Ir dia that the change which about to take place in the Government of that country ill not intended to involv e an y c h ange i n th e pol i c y o f the Government. (Hear, hear) Wiih regard to the man ner in which the announcement in question ought to be made, I may be prricittecl to say that I do net thinlE it is usual to put, a- it were, into the mouth of the Geyer nor-General of India the words in which it should h e couched, without leavir g to him any discretion ae to the modification or withholding altogether of any p a rticula r form of expression. That i s a p oin t w hi c h y e t remelt''' . under he consideration of the Gor.r.ruent ; but I LI nay that m y own in d iv id ua l i mpres -i on i s th at t h e We advisable tours to take with respect to it would be t° state in general terms to Lord Canning that which w e wish t • be done, leaving i to his own di-cretinn to ,t 1,": such languwee as be may d e e m expe di ent, ( H ear. ) . sus eer to the que-tioa of the right hon.gentleinan on tut point therefo re i s , th a t th ere w ill b ean aunouneem ent the transfer of the Government of India from the ColnPe% t the Crown,and that duo care will b e t a k en t o assure th pe pie of that country that the change is not meant to Ini terfere with their ideas or nabits in regard to matters e religious belief (Cheers.) Mr. SPOONER thought that the answer which th e noble lord had just given to th e ques ti on w hi c h bad bee o put to him by th e ri g ht h on . gen tl eman oppos it e in refe` rence to the issue of a pro c l ama t ion was one w hich mutt be looked upon as being of considerable in:porta:ay. 11"; ', a noble lord state' tLat neut r al i ty i n mat t ers o f religie , ; was the principle upon which her Majesty's Minis ter were prepar e d to b a s e th e f u t ure government of In dia. $ Now, if by th e wor d "neutrality" the noble lord nie so f that no attempt would be made to compel the n atives % that country t o b ecome converts to Christianity, to er. "t a policy he could not of ject. But it by the use of t he t term it was intended to t e conveyer to the pee Pie India that it was a m a tt er o f i ndifference to a Christ'; s .' Government whether idolatry still continued to P re : 3l o in a lerg- portion of her Maje•ty's dominion or n ot, tel l& from the expediency of ad.'pti og suc h a course be rn tt r a hog to expr e s s hi s d is - en t. H e ba d b ear d the no ble I° lit , the member t r Tiverton on a former occasion g iee b e d teranee to the conviction that our Indian empire our been given to us not for the mere gratification of e tn. ambition, and to enable eifferent members of the ° a s munity to enter upon a field where they m ight ton i T ie t fortunes, but fez. higher and nobl. r purposes. I n , t fa io sentiment he fully concurred, and he should rnat n „ — g t. that we had not acted in accordance with it in Man ue- 0 0 ing our "neutrality" by paying for the maintenahof and encourageenent of idolatrous practices—sit s p il3 t be which,. he had been ieforined, we were not even 1 " the present moment entirely clear. He was afraid 008 speech of the noble lord ens calculated to create e a e ll misapprehension with . respect to a subject bereiti ethers the most important, and he could not re fry 08 4 Irons stating it to be his opinion that while we den' ot re that we were prepared to pursue the policy of nut le' pelting the natives of India to become converts to - tianity, we should not shrink f rom p : ()claiming tbeE ll ' o i re tian religion to be the right one, and from setting u e ne e them the truth in the best and l eas t offensive ro as- bi in which we coull do so—thus taking th a t coure e tri e which this country might b ecome t h e honoured in e .4t e meet of carrying out Christianity in conjunction Christian eivilizetion. (Hear.) eee of Mr. ROEBUCK s a id th a t nothing but a s e ero l public duty could Induce him to en t er in t o su ch t" ,P 00 0. subject as that which was involved in religions 4118 0 bf siou. The example had, however, been set - to hi e 00 the hon. gentleman who had just spok e n, and actin% of the principle which bad b ee n l a id d own i n a despot ° ir e Lord E leuboreugh—tiarn-ly, that as private m e 0100 ought not to do that as p n el le m en w hi c h as public', be orb alould condemn—he should merely observe th i s ; r is test assured w e s h ou ld secure more beneficial resn''' 0' the case of the people o f I n di a b y conducting our rerel c-edinost in their re g ard i n accor d ance wit h the V . ° , of ertncio p les of justce, than by resor ti ng t o a P° 1 „.1" 0 0.) mi proselytising or missiarisie ,g in that country. b of Mr KINNAIRD also regrett e d that the deePa te , Lord Ellenboiough should have been referred to, a io lf (Di e ht be misunderstood by the country, a n d it cert s ee sl did not agree with what had been stat e d by the nobl e at the bead of toe Government. (Hear.) That no b 1 !) th e die inc ly stated that he wished to car r y out in fool" be policy which when at the head of the C o lonial-eine:oo carried out in Ceylon, and entirely to d6coorle c ce of Government of this c tuatry with the maintena n ( or idolatrous worship in that country. That was lettil er e, trary to what had fallen from the noble lord the eo ite dent of the Board of Control. He (Mr. Kinnaird) 4001 agreed agreed that the authority of the Government oug ht to be brought to bear on matters of religion—( lle ,tioa but the proper course was not neutrality but tol er b t 0 of all religions. Christian converts were se 10°,000 titled to protection and employment a s an y o ther P - t he —(hear)—but the complaint was that in I(i c !bich Christians had not that f a i r an d eqna l j ust ice " to ld was extended to all ethe r sects , an d now theytverepiet there was to be no change in that respect. ode statement would not be very satisfactory to the 02e nte cl• Ile regretted th a t th e ques ti on h a d b ee n we" the for during the whole of the discussions uPO n pee home government of India he bad carefully a tie ,; bee° from bringing it before the h ouse, b ut as it ha d raised he could oak express his regret that th e ; c ol lard had not made a statement as plain and di , it io be e 4 that which had been made by the noble earl at the of the Gevernment. (Hear, hear ) 08 Mr. BOWYER could not understand what it W e b er) hon, member for North Warw i cksh i re (Mr. SP rW riai wanted. There w ero a l rea dy three Protestant biehlot in India, but th e hon. member thought the Gover r . ) e 1 0 iefluence should be u se d to propagate Ch ri stial 2l, " that country. kin d. Mr. SPOONER—I never sa id anyt hi ng o f the e id Mr. BOWYER, thought th e hon. g en tl em an ha l 6 ,1 0 i the Government oug h t to show a desire for the sP reit - s oot Christianity—that at should use all its moral iena' r eli' but trot force, for that purpee. But there WAS 0 ) 3 0 0' urinary difficulty which the hon. gentleman had 00 1 sidered. Wh at ki n d o f Ch r istianity was to be tat ( 3 3 : o bt (Hear, and laughter.) The hon. gentleman n 0 100 considered hint (\lr. Bowyer) to be little better t h be' r) Hinde idolater—(laughter)—and the hon. men 3 h e vio o o hind him (Mr. Gilpin), although not an ido r atero wet' hardly be received by the hon. member for North the wickslaire as a Christian. Therefore, before r e quiri% of Government to use i s infl uence f or th e propalatiagoe Christianity it would be better to decide what Chr l o oo oily was meant. (Hear.) Th e re wa s one point etc winch he should wish to receive some information'to the eirect dominion of India was to be handed 0 ; r 0 0 1 the Crown, he wished so know whether there tv°e„ the be some style or title added to those possessed 'J o it! Crown to show such dominion ? To do so would e of accordance with histor cal precedents, as in the et; 0 0 0 , Wales, which having been added to the royal dot oi 0 0 0' was given in perpetuity as a styl e t o th e e dest e 0 t o ll the Sovereign. Mien a large portion of Fra nce le into the hands of the English S vereign the e i l ie etr King of France was ad o pt e d, an d aga i n, w h en by t o eca, ce stun of James I. to th e E rig ii s h th . one cc:,ite ° canoe under one rulr r the Ki ng b ecame ru l e r of the t' o ea ll Kingdom of Great Britain. It mi g ht be urged 0 ,11 0 objection, that d India were recogni ed among the be 0 . 1 of the Sovereign the celenies world also wish to recognised. Lie did nut consider 'hat would be et tbe edjec ton, as it had never been th e cis t om to ada llo pea styls of a colony unless acq u i re d b y conques t. lie 004 some means would b e d evise d o f inc l u d ing l u dia a the tit es of Royalty borne by her Majesty. lor 4 Col. SYKES said the declaration of the noh ls er oto, would, he believed, do more to remove the dangle pf distrust which now pervaded the minds of the 10"f ee s e India than the most brilliant and Contiouousnuco e ,:ja cur areas, He congratulated the noble lord upon, ; R I claration, upon his liberal feelings, his enlarge' wa s , and his generous sentiments. (Hear ) From P e r g oic r experierice he could deny the existence of any Pr e l o rta e e against Carietan converts in India He b a d on , . 0 O a occasions given instances of their employmen b ;,, • lie service and of other advantages being o' e e iebV pu upon them. The principle in India had been inl ,! . tb ett te select men for the public service according t - r forl s capacity . firr the duties they were required to Pe r quite espeo I ive f their religious views or sent: 1 0 0 o I t bad ale" been the object f the Indian Gin e tr ° A far many years to separate itself entire y from ido ls iffi ee t - o usages and practices. It had given up the Pilg r d frog •Lt Alnahabad and nad abandoned the lands het orea.,, Juger remit, value at three Inc • of rupees. I t o ie $ :11 sr:Eau:ally entirely oisconnect it-ell troin tiler ° 0 0:', 6 fleece of idolatrous worship, but it could not, u he 0 0 % lie repea ed that the declai in ion of 1 , 13 a th, P 6 , : ird would do more fir us in India than any o l i . b ; d' id Leen eta iken dun ing the whole progress 1 ' 0 iussion in that house. (Hear.) atisieu fa int ed Mr. Mr. GILPIN txpre - sad his unqualified s t rest le . with the mane , r is which the question had beeu tr of ° to by tt a nob:e lo :J. (Hear, bear) Those wh_ e ia sired the spread of Cnristianity in India w" 10 0 0 .'0 see Christianity kept free from tho e horriblte. wi.ea winch, whether conimMed by black men ° _ nl j f ltit c h en, were u tsrly frneign to its nature, area ", to to 10 for a lair field fur those who were dispose.oein ibi s ' Christianity for its own sake. He could.not 4' ' I