The Sun. — London, England, 1805-04-30 00:00:00

ii , , . • • desirable itianow them to coatinite their ttiveitiga tkn. He therefore moved fur leave-to bring in a .11111 to continuelfor a time to be limited, &c. ilf . c. WiIITBAEAD could not help isoticing "the extr,:orilinary eonclutt of the Right Hon. Gentle.. man, who, at t h e very time , when he was moving the continuation of t h e i r powers , took occasion to cast the bitterest slur on the Comtniesioners that had 'ever fallen from the spite of a vanquished party. This, slur would never have been cast but for the Boldnes s and impartiali t y w i t h which the Commis. , stoners had done their duty. fie was sure the House did not disapprove ut any part of their can. du!! i and this ,would - appear when the Motion of )'l .l l flammabl e F r i end (Nlr, Sheridar) should be brought forward. 'He wished the Com m i st i oners to irat entrusted with further powers frOm the peculiar letaltratien With w kith they hadcondutted themselves. „If int, per son t h ought they had atked tyrannic a lly, In NW instance, he would vote for n o increase . of their : powe r, and a fur' Vote of Censure instead of kaVote of Thanks. lie would also move a provision. pilthliri the Cotnniissiuners to call for any accounts, a nd in what ever manner they should chose to spe cifYi so that no person could give them any .untie. l trouble or d e l ay. As to the eth clause, he alkikeil it was a subjett of , great delicacy ; but the " 14 0 . the Corninissioners was such, that some alteration may be Made 'With safety. As so much benefit kit heel) 'derived from their - labours, with ' 144 ' Powers so limited, lifsw much - mo r e a d vantage jqis' ctp r it e d when the limit a tio n did not go to ' "ttrit to which it Was n ow construe d. I n . t h e Cooled„( Law, when a witness refused to answer a t l' s ii'n lest it may have a tendency ro criminate himselft' 1 4 Court judged of the reasonableness of th ' -- J' e tion, and afterwards exercised its discretion io t(ittp,l an Atiswer. He wislsed to give a proteEtion Za ag ' it3 ' caner He legal proceedings, hut not agairiat tvirh!l• fie accordingly moved as an Amend. ' a t said A lit leave be give n to continue and amend tile .... did .[4e CII,INCELLOR the - EXCHEQUER i : not of con ceive he 'h a d cast such a slur upon the c:Hliflll'issionerti. 'Wh en t h e H ouse appointed a 11:41 •tlission to inquire, it was not a necessary con. isr"l"rice that the tvlembers gave up their liberty of 1 al to what that Commission may have done. 1 in of the general utility of the Inquiry was 7 ' °t ''' he alteied by his thinking that the Commis. 101"hres 14 "" n 'ight, in s ome i nstances, have. conduCted in a more becoming manner. His 1 2: ini " was still, an d i t had been so from the he. 'ril the in g , th at the Inquiry had done much .service a() Country• lie could not in gene ra l terns Itre to 6 0 11011. Gentleman's Amendment ; it re. 9:ould ' r ed deliberation and d e b ate ; opporlunititi o ccur f or proposing - such provi s ion s i n t he P ro l uEress uf di e measure by way of auses, and they a he disc ussed in the Committee 'cl With notice: In matter of sech delicacy, and 'sacred constitutional it "' he could. not see how the Constitutional re, '4,7 14 agiliton self.criminatioa could be 'repealed It i I °te Ikee C!,mmissioners, or' how the power, if 4V i ti in their hands, could be so .guatded as to ~.,`.':"y4 PeriCtt brclitlty against misuse. He should I " etu te resist Inc Anteodrittnr. , N s py 4 , • .4,eutild not but agree that it • was . very . '. l ti ontlinary in the Right Hon. Gentleman, at the c nie he was moYing tar the cOntinitanie. of the di.;flt)milstian, to state his disapprobation' of the con io, , l 'i the ►Commissioners. If the acts they had guile in the kight 1- Inn.:Gentlt. mln thought din, 44l int() related to the important parts a shear bust ' ti e $' %vete uhtit to be 'continued in 'sn . great a, i v c i II they wLtt.COMpelriniVelY lirtimportant, it 11„ let o d a stliihge kind of divosition in the Right t) tob ' '4en!li!rnati to give great powers to a selett 'p i t er ut men, and at the, Same time - tu . take that ' l4-t v Its east indirect reflations upon them. l'r, titst a fault, and hesitatediitike, ' • , skion u; t, wuuint, 11113 yet atraiti to strike. de eki I i ti ttiiiiii U ( twr cuticeive 'why the Right Flom, Geo , . N I . s h , iwe vet unwilling' to' hint, should chose that Imttieul i t ti me *so express disapprobation, and 1044 'eXplained. It their unbecoming coridu4 was to 41) soil, it just'to mem, of fair to the Public, al lu Ptit them again in a situ of Such a - trust iHe in I,rd that it was compei,o t to rnoke - alterations ds it. le 14,ullreSs of the Bill. ; but that could not he fill t Y slu 'out 4 particular toll 1 uction to the Cowl teiii!. r With respiKt to the sth Chithie, : nu to ile % of services dune, no hove of services gr t , t ' lu ne, cnultl iiiduoe him to trench ,on the 1111 d c""itutk ' n ' 11 I"lnciple, that no man was Le vird l U i , cl'"'inate LitnielL When . the Hill pahsed hot 1,, - n 'it in the habit of attending the Kouse; liith he with an Hun. and Leariked Gentleman Q,„ ei "," , 11) ° law, Oh the other side (the Attorney' 14T 41 ), that is special plovision - W4B not - neces ht6lln 1 ktVild et i It protecting principle universally 1,41(44, OU . r law . Bin he Contended that public th, to 1 . 1 like the servants of . private persons ) , te `;() ot l,) retained when they had refused.Jo ac. k: u , , " leeotitit proposed by their misters. The • I,llturit, in , 1 , . .. • . when it w il , i . 1) )e allowed itsfullscope, i.klict ta.nown that hy selusill he disqualified itti.,,io,„ tit, holdirg his office.. When the Coins r s „ gl (,t Liquify ,were considered not as the l'otse st „ tiv stkno,i( es ol the master, but - as II hostile in dhiolutely 1 141 , i ni to which ever information-thit was, cumpelablu Ystiould he 'refused, the 441 "itilti o . f Vl gt in unit PtinCipit waS ready abused, and it tit i iposhible the inquiry could have any effett. 11i0u,, 1 . I nt an, it necessary that the power of compel.. Sit O.L,L r should he extended Ina point which did ut7? Wilii die QulllititLitiOrt. fit would' not 41 "'' 741lettl" IVir ' S P r ut had ' orbit! not the right to. $; „,114.'veriog ; pet haps he hael ; but if he buds' . ' , 44 A rt . , . 1.4 ' "" fu r tXleliding.tile de,aeription of 4 4 wil ; w ii i ' 4 " the power's ot the A6k Comprettended. trii,,,,, r r i ut ;hese okay be, introduced. in the Com fit!. ' l , °tat III)t r e gul ar l y, t. 4 tw "t shi tilt. w i t hout g 4 ATT ukrx ~ , • . 11 )* th e '. ti . EY,' GENERA/. c. uld not conceive. ' 4 fd lt . e,, , ,! '' act alteration could be made in the title it, t h e h "s L ltdess it was ex petted that a person not l'tind ~,,,4 11 1 . i . u . I : "nun. unicating 'with his li,tght Hon. vski„ ii . .!" ;lad moved it had communi. will' th: 1 1 1 1 .. 11 t'i'n, witty YieW particul ar ilio this ohjedt, and wil l nctea.. ,.°_Pt tit cony irici . ng him that the atteration' 011 itIli tte : I tiv , Y. He thought ark nstruition to the ti r. sit iuttlid answer the putpose• : It t Otakt , .. to 4 /.. 4 D 11 itr .atiowed that there was ,no - l'elistve that ani conlitlentiel intercourse would be eitahlished betweeti iris kortitrientl „whd moved the Amendment, and the Right lion. Gen. tleman who ,made the Motitin, much less was there any hope of such intercOurie 'having the cad of convincing -the' }tight' Horiourode , ‘Gentleman that the alteration was . necessary. He knew no rea, son, however, to prevent 'his Hon. Friend, and a few of those about him, to be joined in the Committee. appointed to prepare and bring in the Bill,and then the Amendment may be agreed upon in the prepara. lion, He allowed that the. Rouse, in 'appointing' Commissioners, did not 'reliequish its' right of judging their conritult ; but to throw oat insinuations on this day that these Ounmissioneta had affect in an unbecoming manner, was, indeed, extraordinary and unaccountable. " The Commissioners had cont. plainf,id that their powers were deficient : he was willing to guard against sell,crimination, which was nor, however, the order of the day. He re. lerred to the At of 1785, for appointing Commis. eionersto inquire into the Fees and Perquisites of the Public, Offices ; and this,' like every comparison of time Right lion. Gentleman's former conduit with that he pursued at present, afforded evidence of the grossest inconsistencies. When a clause, of the na. titre elate sth clause, was proposed lay a Charader whom all revered and regretted (Mr. 13otkt) , , on the foundation of, Magna Charta, which was read at the Table, the Right Honourable Gentleman ridiculed the proposition, and refused the clause.— It was ,singular, that this identical Mr. Trotter, who refused to answer now under the sandlot% of the sth Clause, was CiltllVelled to answer then. He had hoped, that when his Motion of Thanks to *fie iCommissioners should come on, it would be agreed to 'unatiiinously ; now he fearad,the transadions in the House would fall far short of the public, feeling, by Which the Commissioners were judged deserving of time unqualified gratitude of the Nation. He thought it right, howe'rer, to warn ihe-Righ: . Hon. Gentleman, in 4,4nicquence of what had f a llen fr o m him, he would frame hie. Mption in such a way as either to compel him to accede to it, or to state in what manner the Commissioners - had aded untie. comingly. Me. ROSE claimed credit for,having been ever anxious to promote Inquiry since he first came into office, The Bill in 1785 , arose from information that persons in office received large stilliN from those who supplied the Public with certain articles, and the' presumption was, ha t .these presents were charVd ultimately on the Public. Persons in very low situ. atiuns were stated'to have ten times the income.'uf the. Uwder.Seuretaty of State. The Clause al'uded to by the Hon. Gentleman; similar to the sibCiatise ofthe Alt now-before the House, was ; retused, on the ground that the universality of the common law principle rendered it acineecasarY ; he all-wed that if any person,in„a site ation of public trust related to answer, he ought tts be ditrnised; . th this must be said with qualification, as,explanalton may remove the siaspleiou - s charaderot list tiltncc, Mr. Bmilts- conceived the deficiency may be not so muen in mist Mt as in the 'construttion .put upon it. lie therefore thought it not right to say in the first instance, that the Mt 'required amend. tntnt. What lie wished principally to remove was, the obst.icles complained of in the Tenth Report:— He. could not agtce, however, that the moderation of the Cusinalissionera' was a ground for vesting its 'them powers that should be elatustad to no man. Nothing was' so 'mischievous as „to sanction ;Enact precedent, because it was, to be placed in good harms. Mr. WLi ITBREAD ss;i h cd for powers to enforce answers where the disclosuie codid nut tend to selL criintnation. • The'CHANCE:LI:OR of the Esectii'QUFlt, in 'answer to the Hon. Gentleman who chose to objeft to Ititu a Bill which Ite'had proposed with a view ofinquiry into evils then supposed to exist, and now to charge hint'with any grounds of.a disposition to resisein. quiry, thought it'-necessary to state, that the Bill which the Hon. Gentleman described. as so compul. spry, contained nothing more than the general pro_ visions tor the correction of abuse, and not one clause contrary to the principle of security-against self.crintination, which was omitted 'only- .because it is necessarily and ...constitutionally' included in every part:of our law. • • ,the question being now pu-r, the Amendment wit negatived, and the original Motion forJeave tosbtiog * in-a Bill simply to continue the Alt was agreed to. The CHANcei,Loa of the Ex(ttrouFa. rose for the ptirpose of moving, that leave ha given- to bring in a - Bill appointing a Commission to exa.• mine inter , -Oil-Public Erwenditure -of the depart. • menti therein ineptioned, and to report such ohscr. 'vatidns as might - enable the Legislature to correet and prevent irregularities at present existing insult ~ departments, and to - adopt a better mode of con. (hiding' them for the future.. He said, that as he had stated on a former night the objects: of; his ma. , tion, it would not now be necessary-to explain them very luinutely. - They would , chiefly comprehend the great branches of the Military Administration: che. offices at Barracks aid Ordnance, the Clem. missartat and the Q,uartcr.master General's depart. ments. There were several, other objecis to which he wished this Commission to extend. By a Bill' passed some years ago, the •inspeCtion of the Public Accounts was taken from the Auditor's of. In -wrest and vested in a Commission ; however well that Commission had fulfilled its duty, 'yet, from the length of the 'War, and the great increase of public . business, it was impossible, to avoid large arrears, an Curl which could not be avoided, unless- by sp. poioting a fresh Commission to assist in bringing up this ACcollnts. This was one object t another was to examine into the expenditure of the public money in the West Indies, to take measures for recovering what was due, and for preventing the recurrence of abuses in futu r ra—all which were now, before the 11),ard of Treasury. Having thus briefly stated the outlines•olhis plan, the Chancellor of the Exchequer expressed his readiness to listen to any huggcstions that might be made to him for the pur. pose of rendering the Aerationso of it more effectual. The result of such a COMI4;9IUn must be, that the Public would have the satisfaClion of being assured, either that no abuses existed in those Departments, or if they. Unfortunately did existohat measures Would be taken to corral theM. • Mr. FITZG C R ALI) inquired whether the operation of the Bill was gleans to extentl4o Ireland?, The efaNCELLOTt of the El:envoi:nut replied, that would be a subject of future discussion. Et.t.tsoN asked if the War-Offices was to be incladed ? Mr. PtTr answered in the affirmative. 'sir Pont NEWPORT Wished to.know whether or not the Commissariat of Ireland watt to be subje& to investigation by this Commiasion, as well as that of Great Britain ? • Mr. PITT could give no positive answer. He was not sure whether the same Commission would serve for both Countries or. not. Ireland might, perhaps, require a distind Commission. Mr. FITZGERALD desired to be informed, whe. Cher or not it was to he understood that a distina CoMmission was to superintend the Military De partment of Ireland Mr. PITT entertained some doubts if the same Committee could undertake the management of bot,h Great Britain and Ireland : local knowledge might, perhaps, he necessary; but on this subject he had not made up his mind. "Mr. FOX said, that when any Bill. professing to afford the means of examining into the expenditure of the various departments of the State was intro. duced, under such auspices as t h e present, A un o er tife auspices of the colleague of a delinquent who had undergone - the severe Censure of Parliament, the 'House and the Country must lot k at the proceed ing with a considerable degree of doubt. Had it been his fate to be connected, as the Right Hun. Gentleman had lieen, with persons of the descrip. non which he had before alluded to, he would have taken especial care that any subsequent - Inquiry • should be so emulated as not to afford his worst toe mita the slightest pretence to insinuate that he had appointed the persons who were to judge of his own c , rlud. He asked Gentlemeh fairy to say, whe. ther they thought, had Lord Melville named the Gentlemen who were to compose the Commission of Naval Inquiry, we rthouid - haveheard any thing of the Tenth Report or notie—lt was easy to apply the answer to . .the present rase. He eainesily hoped,• that before the 4111 . was brought in, Gen ilemen would look about and consider well who were, the proper persons to appoint in this new corn. mission. • It ever there was a time in tehirth, re. gaming" the pubic wellfare, they Ahoulcl.abarain from paying compliment to the Right Hon. Gentle. man; by listening to his: recorninandatiOn, i t wa i t he . present., With' regard to the objed to which the Commissioners were to direa their attention, he thought them too limited. They were to h e coo to the investigation of the Military Department. But was this enough is—Did it not appear from the Reports. of the „ Coirortissioners of Naval Inquiry, that there existed absolute net•es. si:y for an sotaminailoo :of the general Public E. penditure o f th e Coun t ry, of Which the Naval' and Military DepartMents- formed only two features?-.- Was it out expedient to investigate the affairs of the 'friasury I—Should this be deemed proper he, should like to know .Wittim the Right 'Honourable Geetlensati would select for-the task 1--He might, perhaps, concave, that the Lords of the Treasury were every way fit for it.---(A /sago) . But let not the Right Hon. Gentleman *slay this flattering unction to his soul," that after what had passed in that House, after the enormities that had already been dragged to light,, the Pultlie would he satisfied w i t h the appointment of a Commission by himself, to inquire lettothose brandies of the Ptiblio Ser. vice with which he himself was immediately con. fleeted., If he entertained this hope, he was con. winced that he would find himself very seriously Mistaken. ' • Lard CASTLERE4CII contended, that his Right lion. friend would be,th e last man to wish for any interference in the appointment of a Com. mission to investigate affairs in which he was him self concerned. Ilan individual, howeirero were to be seletted, in the whole Country to whotothi's pow. er might be entrusted without any apprehen s ion of dishonourable advantage being made of it, where, he wished 'to' know, could any one be found in whom such cnnfidence might be implicitly placed as in his Right Hottourable li . riensi. He called on the House to repel with indignation any imputation on their 'honour, let it Cottle from what quarter it might.o.-Would they endure to be told, that they were willing to subjed themselves to the authority, of any, individual, however pure his eherader, how. ever high he might staid in their'estitnetion, from the experience 01 many years during a peoindsaa cri. deal and important as. ever occurred in the.annals of the world I—As to 'observerions on the intended regulations of the Bill, it Would be more proper to deter them till the Bill was actually before the House. Mr. Fox explained. Mr. adverting to the :Nub)* Lord's cu. logiunt clan his Right Hon. Friend's purity, as a nister (which he dial opt mean to question), said, shot it was by no means a novel ohaervation, that it hod frequently happened under the administration ci a person unsuspected of any contaminat ion of prioeiftler that a gross corruption 'had been carried on in the highest degree. detrimental to theSrate. If inch a man, however he -might himself resist the icinotit tion.of pecuniary, advantage, lent his reputation, arid connived atolie - peculation of others, he was become' must highly culpable. The Noble Lord would give. him leave to state, as a fair ground of aeopicion, What.he _was not afraid openly to avow, that there OM/ had been greater abuses committed than during the - Ariministretion of the Right Honourable. Gentleman, He trusted that the penons about to be-appointed by ' the New commission would fulfil the trust reposed in them with as ,much fidelity as the COMillibtliUnerS of 'Naval In. sanity; and the cause of those abuses might then; perhapr, .be developed. The Noble Lord hail ex., picas's! himself with a warmth which reminded him of the occasion a few years ago, when havingiteen accused of-some irttliteet prattiees Jr! -Ireland, the Noble Lord took fire, started up, and 'defended ItimseW-strenuously, pronouncing an eloquent pane. gyric on the independence and purity tat the Irish Parliernerit ; but on the accusations being repeated, With the additional citcumsteaces that he had been the instrument of corrupting that Parliament, , the 'Noble, Lord suddenly lost all his indignation, and remained- silent, can the aubjed. Mr. GREY here entreated the - Howe 'to recoiled that great ,abuses had been discovered in some departments of the State; itronruu , Picions wcra anterteined that , 4 great - Ansel; fltisted in others; the people liners; anxiously looking for a full, fair, and girl& inquiry,; if in this they were disappointed, if they saw that there was an evident design to frustrate their wialiei by the appointment of an int`eiested Commissito, in stead of eotnpoiing their discontents, they would ius highly exasperated, and the abaraeler of that I-louse, which flaw stood so well with the Country, would sill( into the detpw opprobrium. Leave was then' given to bring in, the Rill, and the Chancellor of the Exchequett, 'with the Attor. ney and StAicitor Generals, were directed to pre. pare the same. LORD 11ELVILLE: Mr. SPENCER ST el N HOPE, in moving for. • he proceeding at Lew against 'Lard , Melville and Mt. Trotter, thought he was only moving • what was a corollary from the Resorutions the House h4L already entered into. 'He hoped no one would sup. pose it his wish to screen delinquents, or tfirow dust in the eyes of the Pubic ; btat it had not yet been proved that Lord Melville had any participa. Lion in the prtifit of the public money, and for his , part he did not believe he had. 'This great fed, I.)n which his criminality or innocence would . de. pend, could be examined better by a court of law than even a Committee of ihat Hattie. IF there was no eorrOpt participation, - there • was no' guilt, and therefore he could not be punished ctinsinally. But as by law a trustee is not allowed tnmike pro. fits of monies entrusted to him, so the profits which were made of the public money ought to be now recovered in a civil malen. He therefore moved, that the Attorney` General- be ordered to bring eetions against Lord Melville and Mr. Trot. ter, far the recovery of the same. Sir 8011 ERT BUXTON seconded the motion, and constkleted that, except in question. respecting ,their own privileges, the House of Commons would do well to refer the ex.iminationuf offences of this ;sort to the eolith of law. Mr.:BANKS, differed frOm both the Hon. Gen. denten, and thought it would have been much better to have referred the question in the first instance to . a Selea, Committee with large powers ; •but as that mode was rejected, and there remained nothing now but to consider whether -it was beat to proceed by Civil AClion fur the recovery of the Money, or by iminal Prosecution for the purpose of punishment, he thought, when he coosidered . the great intrica. cies and difficulties of settling ,these accounts by any course of Law, and the'douhts of ultimate sticcess,it would be better to have recourse to a Critninal secution, for the violation of the Law, which as' the very .essence and body of 'the crime , could be very easily proved. He therefore moved, as an. Amendment, that the Attorney. General, should be direeted to commence a Crtininiii Prosecution. IVLND.ILIM considered it perfettly clear, that the best way of pcoreeding would have been to have referred the whole matter to a Selett Cointnit. tee, who could have taken the opinion of the Law Officers in what manner the suit ought to be briught with the best chance of succeeding in its objett. They would have been able to ascertain whether there-existed evidence sufficient . either to support a civil ktibn, or a Criminal Prosecution. Since that course was not taken, and the alternative lay merely bitween the Civil Anion and the Criminal Prose. ctition, he should give his vote tar the latter. The. MASTER of the ROLLS thought it would be easier to procure evide'nce sufficient to succeed in the Civil. Anion, than to succeed.in the Criminal Ptusecution to any beneficial attion. For if on a prosecution there was evidence to prove a corrupt participation, it could not be supposed . that the Court ul King's Bench would inflict any' fine of such' magnitude, as ha repay what might have been made. At present, theme was no evidence at all such participation, and he do not see that there , was any reason to expect any. A Civil Adion was, there. fore, the only one by which the Profits of the Mo hiecrnight be recovered for the Nation, Di. LAWRENCE replied to the Master of the Rolls.- si r . 101 IN NEWPORT thought the recovery of the money W 45 a paltry k inconsiderable ohjet l. when comparLd with that of punishing the ofrendeis. He did nut know that a criminal conviftion would in. demnify them lig a civil ;Alan afterwards fur the recovery of these pr4its. Mr. FOX said his objea was, that Lord Melville should in some way or other be prosecuted, and is some way or ether be punished. At present he had only to get for his Constituents and the Public the best redress he could. He considered the question of law so clear that he was not afraid of letting it go to ktrial ; but he, preferred a criminal prostea. clan to a civil afflon. Mr. T. g'RENVILLE war also for a criminal prosecution. Mr. SHERIDAN took notice of. the mistake in whiCh it appeared to him that the Mover had fallen; he hadsaid that he did not believe that Lord Mel. ville had pArticipated with Mr. Trotter (and cer. tainly there was no evidence of such participation), and yet he spoke of his being compellable to refund by a civil iiction. If he had not participated, he did not see itow he had become liable to refund. ff h e was inuocent of 40 , corrupt partic;?ation, anti he would'agaiß repeat that there was at . present nothing like evidence of the ha, then lie thought a civil ma• torn ought not to lie bronglit. If he were gu il ty , a 1 criminal proSCCUIIUII would as cumpletel; answer the ends of justice ; but in either camthere most be pro. duced such evidence as the Commissioners never had, reapeding the corrupt intention, which alone would I constitute the criminality. MK. WILLIARIPO RC E supported the criminal Altosecution, principally because the LaWyers had declared that there would be very little chance in a civil anion, and he thought in some shape or other "the Public were entitled to justice. Tkr 'CHANCELLOR cf arse BXCIfigUIR acknowledged the Candoiar w it h which an Honour. able Member (Mr'. Sheridsri) had confessed that theca was no evidence of participation.- , He Natal undo stood, that after the heavy Wound which the Res°« liaion at the House MO necessarily hive giveo to the feelings of Lord Melville, it was not the inten. tion o f t he I l o ose to iosii Lti‘e any vindidive prtie. cutions against him.' On that ground principally he , supported the amendment. . Mr. iritali READ could not allow that the re. i i va tion of - , rd Mziville was any vonhLocia,