The Sun. — London, England, 1829-02-14 00:00:00

• Justice. The noble Earl has again to-night made a violent attack on the consistency of his Majesty's Ministers. It is quite enough for me to defend my own consistency, and I have no business to take charge of that of others—least of all, of that of the present servants of the Crown. They are themselves fully competent to the task ; and to say the truth, it will be no very difficult undertaking, whether I consider the nature of their cause or the abilities of their antagonists. Theirschange of conduct arises from a change of opinion, and that change is a proof not only of their wis dom and honesty, but of the strength and soundness of their attachment to the Constitution. The Noble Earl asks what new circumstances have produced it? 'What e ireamstancee ! My answer is, on what side do not cir cumstances present themselves warranting such a change in any minds not closed against the elements of facts, and the lessens of experience ?—(Hear.)—That things cannot re rnain as they are, is now evident to the most superficial observer; another course must be taken to steer the vessel of the State safely among the perilous rocks and shoals by which she is surrounded. What circumstances? is a divided Administration nothing? That evil has been stated in another place in stronger terms than any I could employ, and that it was dangerous to the interest of the B tate is not to me a new opinion. I have not only ex- Pressed it freivently in debate, but it stands recorded in a letter written by me in conjunction with a Noble Friend, w hoeeabsence from the House we have all reason to regret. Ilad he been present, with what meritorious zeal would we have advocated that cause which he so long supported, ;lid on which of old he so often delivered his honest, en lightened, and statesman-like opinions. It was proposed t ° us to form part of a conjunct Administration, consisting, a mong others, of indWiduals in whose principles we could riot concur, and I well remember the letter we jointly ad dressed to a Royal and Illustrious Duke, now dead, whose name I cannot mention without respect and affection. Un doubtedly, on many political questious, I had the misfor tune to differ from the Duke of York, and when he pro- Posed the formation of an Administration, consisting of Lord Grenville, myself, and others of discordant sentiments, we answered the call upon us in a letter, from which I I 'eg leave to read to your Lordships the following ex- tract :...... " We beg leave most earnestly to assure his Royal High ness that no sacrifices . except those of honour and duty of healing appear to us too great to be- made for the purpose !leafing the divisions of our country, and uniting both itc government and its people. All personal exclusion we t e° irely disclaim ; w e r e st on p u bli c m easures ; an d it i s en , " ground alone that we must express without reserve the k in Possibility of our uniting with the pres en t G overnmen t. f ur differences of opinion are too many and important to a dmit of such an union. His Royal Highness will, we are cOI dent,-do us the ju s ti ce t o remem b er th at we h ave tw i ce ~atly acted on this imp ress i on ; i n 1809, on t h e propo "on then made to us, under his Majesty's authority, and la st Year, when his Royal Highness was pleased to request °ut advi ce respect i ng t h e f ormat i on o f a new G overnment. l i breasons which we then humbly submitted to hi m arc gthened b y th e i ncreas i ng d angers o f th e t i mes ; nor there, down to this moment, appeared even any ap-- lloaimation towards such an agreement of opinion on re Public interests, as can alone f orm a b as i s f or th e "nourable union of parties previously opposed to each oth er . " Into th e d eta il o f t h ese differences we are unwilling henter; they embrace almost all the leading features of n e Present policy or the empire; but his Royal High depe° has, himself, been pleased to advert to the late Zberations of Parliament on the affairs of Ireland.— i° is a subject, above all others, important in itself, and _ . . frn_.oonected with the most pressing dangers. Far I t/i t u ri c oncurring in the sentiments which his Majesty's pr il ters have, on that occasion, so recently ex 6reeled, we entertain opinions directly opposite; we are „ . l persuaded of the necessity of a total change in the rrn'esent system of government in that country, and of the i i t uediate repeal of those civil disabilities under which so lar g e a portion of his Majesty's subjects still laboured on aZo arlunt of their religious opini o ns. T o r ecommen d t o iament this repeal, is the first advice which it would ee. - :our duty to offer to his Royal Highness ; .nor could we, ri ven for the shortest time, make ourselves responsible for which delay in the proposal of a measure, without ,_ . h we could entertain no hope of rendering ourselves , seesul to his Royal Highness, or to our country." It. T hat opini on I state d at t h at t i me , an d t h at op i n i on I save since seen no reason to change. That opinion of a Zded Governinent has been found correct, and that evil, the 1, c onsequences of which have been increasing every day, ii ii - n trcv been amongst those causes that have influenced his rai intre Ministers in the course they have now deter , th t Z" : _to adopt. But if a divided Government is an evil, I m en : " e elll a greater evil, and that is a divided Parlia may h . k Cheers.)—Among the other circumstances which ther are influenced them•to this decision, I ask whether foeb %is not that threatening- aspect of affairs abroad which hai l :" any man to say how long the peace at present ex- . of an g in Europe may continue—(hear),—and in'that state ata 2 l ee9 with regard to our foreign relations, what is the tai of Ireland, and what are the feelings we must enter s o _ °n account of it? i s it nothing to see seven millions 4efen ur fell ow-subjects not affected with a zeal for the q 4 of the empire, but actu a t e d by a bitter resent nti'l for the refusal of their unalienable rights? Good by ~ Wh at a picture of that country has been drawn .._.4 Picture Marquis sitting now on a bench near me, p eril :. cture in which he represents, that nearly all the vi rw 4° of property and influence are driven, with a s 4L ,( O their ow n sa f e t y , t o li ve ou t o f t h e country ; a f act ,tion'sliews, in the clearest possible manner, that what is ! anco ' u f the greatest evils of Ireland—absenteeism—must be Tate one amongst the many evils caused by the exist tugtgTete of the laws. With these circumstances surround ti ~ nu on every side, was there, I ask, no reason, when ~ Iti4:emer remedies had failed, that those Ministers who had lebr it t L t ° tried every m eans t o u ph o ld th e p resen t l ega l es tnio t unent, s h ou ld l oo k roun d to see if t h ey were net ac- I not I l h c runPelled to change their course of conduct? Were of th. e a ggravation—the constantly increasing aggravation large Public feeling there, and the state of the country at fou lki in 'her* other relations—were not these, I ask, sue r s ufficient to justify any statesmen to alter their for . stat et e° ,„ n rse; sufficient to justify any statesmen, I say—for • opipi e 7en are not to be bound and fixed to any theory or form t ;','_,hu? r9ust look to things as they are when about to (Chars it line of conduct on any great national question? • op utt re e An individual may stand on a high. point of hou gh a nd consistency—he may reject any course which, hak e (1 necessary in many respects, would, if adopted, 5 0 t i n ( . 4 vn a favou r ite p r i nc ipl e —h e may j us tify hi mse lf o l", - , l ng, but a statesman must act on no such narrow 11 ) t h e "t is not for him to snake public expediency submit eiL,l•on bePreservation of his consistency in following an opi- Ase enit . in _ sY have formerly held—ho neat submit to the tymi c l ad " of the times , and act with a view only to the ep advantage ( Hear. ) — It is not, I repeat, for lit PYlng the station of his Majesty's Ministers, oa t Y/' " every Can but thing may go to wreck and rein, so maintain my system, and continue the t e t !‘ta Catholics." aperson, ion of the Such instead of • in g as a Mi n i s t er in the Councils of his Sove b, would not d eserve th e name o f a statesman , b ut A tg t to be sent to one of those places where Kings, and l ' ,!, (1 1s, and Ministers, whose ideas were quite the - same, :‘4t also advantageously inhabst. I say then, my Lords, ' here was justification enough for his Majesty's Minis to4 change their opinions, and to adopt a new lin e of 1 tlet. It is almost unnecessary fur me to offer any i t ° l o ,. or to show any reasons which I think s u ffi c i en t :t.fy their change of measures ; but it is due to them ' In e o state, that what they now propose to do is, I k tt e : the result of their sincere conviction, arising from 10 1 l no t think an enlightened and sound view of the ques :: W under consideration. This conviction has im - 4 41 : 3 4 them the duty and necessity of proposing the ki th ? Kith is shortly to be submitted to Parliament ; es i I t f . !t du ty has b ee n f u lfill e d by a ll, b u t es p ec i a lly by ed Sr ; 4 41 . hs r of the Cabinet, on whom much obloquy has e li tt instly thrown, in a very proper and manly manner. erie re Perform e d it, although, in doing so, he has made a : , • ' t h e er, fli tn e l r e eit h t a e d r t n i o nu in t a e i r m es o r oneany w way, te balancingm an ever interest t m e r e e d s et thebe- on g 4 1 Yet these interests has he sacrificed under the i t • - - 4 d l ing of his public duty. I say, therefore, that ion tie fr m l a. n ° - a person in my situation, having no con ,,Ny to yno way or the other, to bear my humble testi ' 'ed ed conduct.which, I really believe to have pro '' 7„entryrnta a sincere view to the real interests of the at fis With those views I entirely concur, and I ask r-' l ,. alt, ile r course could they have pursued ? We had but ..,1, eio o -uat ive—coercion or conciliation—(hear, hear) — t t h e You have tried—it has failed.—(Cheers.)—You 1 ,t;'i i r ticoyalrerutforiempandsotpbtumconnticninlima.t„ion.Tbaltn hastlie b w b o it r i d ie s rt o n f Lord been ' a ` For surest cure for sedition is the removal of the --- ''. ,lk 4 t. ` !or he that turneth the humours back, and ' N I % ) the wound bleed inwards, endaneereth malign I° 4 • " 1.4 1 you have drawn the humour•back into the ' You h o w u i o . wound bleed crush a i n g s r v o a a r t d s o , u d and o n y e o r u_ :h i :, p cu e: it impossible youhave to fai l e e ff d e , c t o a n d c u l r v e h . i You s h e l f i t a t v o e d y o o n u e , iis po fQ o 4l:l:t he av v e ain ma e d n e d t e l a i v e at • , e, athe words of Bacon, to look, as he says, to the et ra n d cure the evil by its removal ?—(Cheers.)- s io n - 1 . 44 is exclusion—the remedy is admission ; ei tai,,,lor°ol the blessing of the Constitutionis the wound, 'd theZ t .. ° those blessings will be the remedy. Do that, 1 " h at I heard quoted on another occasion bya person tyhoge yoke I shall hear no more, will be true on this— " Defluit af!itatils humor: Concidani noel, fee; nubee, Et urinal - (Tied sic veluere) ponto Ueda recutube:." The measure that will eIK-et this is conciliation, and con ciliation hear. ani persuaded, from the manner in which thiequestion has been announced, and from the confidence I have in the Noble Duke himself; that when he determined to take this course, and to propose this measure, he considered well how be should best carry it into effect. Ido not believe the Noble Duke to be a man of half measures. I am persuaded, that seeing the necessity of settling this question, he will make that settlement corn plete.—(Hear, hear.)—He will not desttoy the evil by half only—he will not grant concession in a grudging mari ner, soers to keep up the galling feelings of irritation which have so long existed. He will effect a cure of the evil—he will give lasting peace and happiness to the country by its removal, and religious animosity will be destroyed in the happy consummation of a religious peace. When I say this do not let it be thought that fobject to securities. Securi ties will be proper enough. They are required, not so much to add to our real safety, as to tranquillize the ap prehensions of the people here; and to securities for such a purpose I have no objection. To securities, indeed I myself attach but little or no importance. The great see curity is in the measure itself. Grant that, and lam per snarled that all other securities will be perfectly unneces sary; and this observation leads me to the subject of what was stated by a Noble Earl on the cross-bench, as to the nature of the Roman Catholic religion. I am, my Lords, attached to - the Protestant Church. I am a member of the Church of England, and as a member of that church, I desire to protect its interests, and I believe its interests -will be best secured and promoted by the success of this measure. When the Noble Earl says that the Roman Catholic religion is inse parably connected with slavery, I ask him from what page of history he draws such' a statement ? He has appealed to the Protestant Revolution—to that Protestant Revolu tion from which, he says, no change ought to be made at the present day. Does he remember the words of the Bill of Rights ? He has spoken of that Bill, but he seems to forget that the provisions in the Bill of Rights, tkough settled and confirmed at the Revolution, are there stated to be the ancient and indubitable liberties of the people of England.—(Hear, hear.) At the time of the Revolution they were assumed to be ancient and indubitable. By whom, I ask, were these indubitable rights and liberties secured ? By our Roman Catholic ancestors. By our Roman Catholic ancestors was Magna Cherie passed—by them were the Commons introduced into Parliament—by them were enacted those securities against the extending influence of the Church of Rome in the Statutes of Pro visos and Premunire.- From Roman Catholics, I say, therefore, we have nothing to fear. Unite us with them in the bonds of affectionate loyalty, and if any ques tion shall then arise in Parliament as to the political power claimed by the Sovereign Pontiff, I have no doubt they will show in the present day the same spirit and determi nation in resisting every attempt to enlarge the power of the Church, which our Catholic ancestors have before manifested. On all these grounds, I shall come here with considerable pleasure to assist in passing this measure. I do regret that it is to be accompanied, or rather preceded by one of another kind. However, lam satisfied in one respect, at least, namely—in the manner in which the great measure itself is to originate. It will come, as I always thought it ought to come, and as I be lieve it can only come with real advantage and success— namely, from the recommendation of the Throne. It has been recommended in the gracious Speech of his Majesty, who, in the beneficence of his heart; has directed our at tention to a measure that will alone be capable of satisfy ing the wislfes of the nation. Let us, my Lords, do our utmost to second him in this excellent endeavour, and the greatest advantages must follow. From the moment in which he assumed the reins of Government, success has attended his Councils. After all the storms with which Europe has been convulsed, his exertions enabled him to give peace to Europe—a peace most honourable to the glory of our arms ; and now, after the storms of religious difference have agitated this empire, lie is about to gain still higher honour, by giving peace and prosperity to this country, by a measure that will unite in holy charity and brotherly love all classes of his subjects (Cheers). These, my Lords, are the feelings with which I look on the speech, and with which I shall hail the measure that is there recommended to us. It I may be permitted, I will add one word as to the Noble Earl who has spoken to= night, and I trust 1 shall not be mistaken in doing so. When I feel strongly on any subject I use strong expressions ; but I hope I have not deviated from that moderation which has been recommended so wisely ' and properly in the Speech from the Throne ; which, above all things, is so necessary in this discussion; and which, I wish, were a little attended to by Noble Lords who argue on the other side. I hope that in what I have already said I have not used any ex pressions that may give offence to the Noble Lord, but I should like to ask him what he proposes by his opposition? He has made an appeal to the Noble Duke, and has desired to know whether the Noble Duke thinks he can retain his situation after this measure shall have passed. I should like to know whether the Noble Earl thinks it possible, if the present Administration should be dissolved upon this measure, that another could he found to go on with the Government while things remain in their present state? I do not ask him to give up his present opinion, but I wish him, in the retirement of his closet, to consider whether, by allowing his zeal to urge him into extremes, he is not more likely to endanger the best interests of the country, than if he consented to almost any measure which, on this subject, his Majesty's Ministers may think fit to bring before us. Ido hope that this measure will experience no delay further than what is absolutely necessary and una voidable. Como-as quickly as it may, nobody can say that this House or the people have been taken by surprise on this subject, which has indeed been decies repetita. It has been discussed and re-discussed, until men's minds have been most fully enlightened and informed upon it; and I must therefore say, that I de hope that on no pre tence of taking the sense of the country upon it may the measure be again postponed. I ought to apologize, my Lords, for the time which Ihave consumed, but I was anxious to take the earliest opportunity afforded me of bearing my unequivocal testimony to the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers, and to assure them publicly that, on this measure, they may rely on me to give them all the support which, as an humble individual, it is in my power to afford.—(Cheers.) Lord TEYNHAM was understood to say that it was not in his power to support the measure. The Earl of FALMOUTH, seeing the state of the House (nearly all the Peers had departed at the conclusion of Earl Grey's speech), would not enter into any length ened discussion, but he had a few observatrous to makes,in consequence of the reference made to him by the Noble Earl who had recently addressed them, relative to what had fallen from him yesterday as to the general feeling of the counties of Devonshire and Cornwall on this question. In reference to the last general election, the Noble Earl had drawn the inference that those counties were favourable to the proposed concessions, from the circumstance that a large body, or, as the Noble Earl had seid, a majority of the freeholders had supported that candidate for the county who was, what might be called, a reformer. lle could as sure the Noble Earl that he spoke a matter of fact, when he said that the sense of the county was not taken on that occasion; and for the best reason in the word, namely, that there was no contest. He could tell the Noble Earl that by far the greater number of the people of that county were against what was termed Catholic Emancipation ; and, dare Noble Earl would ask the question of the pre sent Member of that county, he would find that this statement was fully borne out by the facts The Noble Earl had said that he agreed with the assertions of attachment to the Constitution of this country ; but Ice seemed to forget that that petition expressed the attachment of the petitioners to the Protestant Con stitution of the country—to that Protestant Constitution, as it was settled at the Revolution ; and, throughout the petition, the word " Protestant" qualified the expression Constitution; and the petitioners prayed that the Protestant Constitution might be preserved inviolable. The Noble Earl had then gone through the history of the last twenty years, and had stated what were the numbers of the suc cessive divisions in the House of Commons on the Catholic Question. Now, from that very statement an inference the very opposite of what the Noble Earl wished to draw might be deduced. It appeared, from the Noble *Earl's state ment, that the majority, in 1806, in favour of the Catholics was 106 ; and that in 1828- they had likewise a majority, But what was that majority? It had, indeed, the units, but it had neither the tens nor the hundreds : they had disappeared, and the majority was only six —(Hear.)—He 1 would say no more, but should leave the country to judge whether that was a proof that the Catholic Question had gained or lost supporters within that time. The Earl of iVINCHELSEA said; he was accused of having carried his opinions on this subject into such ex tremes as to have disturbed the private and social inter course of the county in which he resided. He denied that accusation, and he appealed to all those who knew him whether he had ever carried his political feelings to that extent. Not only be had not suffered the subject to inter fere with his private friendships, but he had 'not even al lowed it to interfere with respect to those who were de pendent on him. Ile was solicitous to state, that he had not used the least possible influence to bring any man to that meeting in which the petition he presented bad origi nated. The Noble Earl opposite (Earl Darnley) had spoken of the state of that meeting, and had denied the amount of the majority. Now he (the Earl of Winchel sea) had been present at that meeting as well as the Noble Earl ; they were in_ their respective waggons,— (A laugh) ;—but lie had quitted his waggon and gone round the field, so that he saw every thing, while the Noble Earl, by remaining in his waggon, only saw a part of what was going on. It bad been said that some men had been sent there to keep down the sense of the county. He could declare for himself that he had taken no part in the transaction, and knew nothing whatever of it, and, indeed, did not believe there was the slightest foundation for the statement. He saw the result; and if the Noble Marquis, who was the Lord Lieutenant of the county, was now present, he would appeal to that Noble Mar quis for confirmation of what he had stated respect ing it. There was reason to believe that the other side had used means to overawe the Meeting, to such an extent, indeed, that there were hills scattered about the great avenues to the meeting, advising those who va lued their lives not to go thither, for that a large body of watermen had been brought from the river to put down all opposition to their leader.—(A laugh.)—So that if any charge was brought about an attempt to overawe the meet ing, he thought the charge might be better made out against the other party than against his. He declared he had used no attempt to influence any one. He honestly avowed that some of his own tenants bad gone to the meeting, and voted against the side he espoused ; and God forbid they should not do so ; for certainly he should never attempt to controul any man. But if two Noble Lords who lived near him were now present, he would put to them a few questions which he thought would show there were others who did not pursue the same line of conduct. It was said that the feeling of the country was in favour of these con cessions; when he thought so he would agree to the pro posed change ; but so long as he thought the reverse, he could not consistently with his own opinions, nor would he on any account give up his opposition. It was unne cessary for him to trespass more on their time on that part of the subject ; but there were one or two observations of the Noble Earl who had recently spoken which he wished to answer. The question now under cousideration same before Parliament in a shape different from what it had ever before done. The Bill was not to be produced by those who had always advocated this measure ; but by others--by those, in short, who had always been its most strenuous opponents. If the measure was to be carried, he trusted it might not be while the feeling of the country was, as he believed it was, against it. It was said that it remained to be proved whether he or the Noble Lord was right as to the feeling of the country. A few days or weeks would determine that fact. God forbid he should agitate the country ; God forbid he should appeal to any one against the feelings and opinions of those whose habits, education, and talents, entitled them to lead those feelings and opinions. But he could not agree that this question ought to be carried, because, when the people of England found that this question was taken frem them, perhaps the consequences might be found to be worse than the refusal of these concessions. He was surprised to find the Noble Earl say that the Great Charter was derived from our Catholic ancestors. He denied that virtually they were Roman Catholics, for they had been excommuni cated—so far for what was said as to our being indebted to Catholics for our Charter. He was sorry that the Noble Earl opposite should have said that any attempts were made to overawe the Meeting of Kent ; and he was quite sure that the Noble Earl would not, upon reflection, charge either him (the Earl of Winchelsea), or the respectable body of the Gentlemen of the county, with overawing the Meeting. He would only state, that that petition was signed by the . freeholders of the county, and out of 6,000 signatures, only SO of the names had been shuck out as not being freeholders. Earl GREY observed, that the Noble Earl had some what failed in shewing that England was not indebted for her liberties to their Catholic ancestors. He attempted to prove that, by saying that they were excommunicated. Now that fact proved two things against the Noble Earl— first, that they were Catholics, for otherwise they would not have been excommunicated ; and next, that even the terrors of excommunication, and the Papal authority in that dark age, could not prevent them from doing what they thought to be their duty to their Sovereign and their country. Earl DARNLEY had never meant to deny that the ma jority was with the Anti-Catholics. The tale of the water men was a hoax ; and as to the imputation with respect to the Noble Earl, he (Earl Darnley) believed him to be of too honourable and manly a character to do any thing of the sort. Though that meeting had introduced ill blood among many of the people of the county, he trusted it would make no difference between him and his Noble Friend. They only differed as all men might, fairly and conscientiously. Lord BEXLEY did not mean, in the present state of the House (most of the Lords had by this time left it), to detain their Lordships by' an address of any length. He rose merely for the purpose of making one or two observa tions. Whatever might be his own opinions of the mea sure which it was in contemplation to submit to the Legi slature, he did not think that the fault which in some re spects had been found with his Noble Friend at the head of the Administration was well founded. He alluded par ticularly to the insinuations which had been thrown out of unfairness on the part of the Noble Duke, in not hay ing at an earlier period made known his intention to pro pose the measure relative to the Roman Catholics which had been lately announced from the Throne. He was sa tisfied that the Noble Duke could not at a much earlier period have communicated the views which he entertained on that subject ; for he agreed with the Noble Duke that to have done so would have been a decided breach of his duty, before he had obtained the assent of the Illustrious Personage to whom he alluded. But, at the same time, the observations was perfectly just and well-founded that the sentiments of the nation could not be changed iu a few days.—(Hear, hear. )—Petitions from three counties had already been got. up against the proposed measure, and he was convinced that snore would soon come pouring in upon the Legislature; and he hoped that an opportunity would be allowed, in considering a question of such vital import ance, for both sides to be fairly heard in the discussion, and that those who opposed the concession would be permitted to have their due weight with Parliament as to the conclusion to which it ought to come. A Noble Earl (Grey) had adverted to the sentiments which had been displayed on different occasions in the votes of the House of Commons, on the subject of concession to the Catholics; and the Noble Earl had been able, after all, to state no more than that the House of Commons had been actuated by alter nate feelings on the subject, and had sometimes come to the one conclusion, sometimes to the other. Under these circumstances, he did not think that his Noble Friend (Lord Falmouth) was wrong when he suggested, that when a question of such magnitude was to be considered, discussed, and decided upon, a new Parliament ought to be called for that special purpose. As to the ancient times of Catholicism to which the Noble Earl (Grey) had called their Lordships' attention, they were distinguished for many barbarous institutions, and by a remarkable hatred of the Roman Catholics towards the Reformed Religion ; and in that respect the spirit of fhe Roman Catholic reli gion had, down to this day, remained unchanged. And if the Roman Catholics were now to he admitted into the Legislature, that measure would be followed, unless great care was taken to prevent it, by a successien of Roman Catholic cues oachments which would subvert the liberties of the country, or occasion a tremendous re-action. KENT PETITION IN FAVOUR OF CONCILIA TION. The Earl of DARNLEY said, that he Lad a petition to present in favour of Catholic emancipation, which came from a large portion of the freeholders of Kent. It might not be so numerously signed as that which had just been presented by his Noble Friend from the same county, but it was still very numerously and respectably signed.-- Among the individuals whose signatures were attached to it, were 13 Members of their Lordships' House, and many other opulent and respectable freeholders. The Duke of RICHMOND —How many signatures are there to it ? The Earl of DARNLEY—Seventeen hundred. The petition was then laid on the table. • IRISH PEERAGE. Lord SHAFTESBURY moved that the Attorney- General and the Solicitor-General of Ireland should be called upon to attend before the Committee of Privileges, while engaged in the consideration of the petition of Lord Castlemaine against the return of Lord Dunally as one of the Representative Peers of Ireland.—Ordered. His Lordship then moved, that the House at its rising d o adjourn till Monday, which was ordered. Adjourned at Half-past Eight o'clock till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS-(LAST NIGHT.) General GASCOYNE brought in a Bill for the esta blishment of an Institution at Liverpool, to be called " The School for the Indigent Blind." Sir R. INGLIS presented a petition against the Ca tholic Claims, from Ashbury, Berks. Mr. BANKES presentiql similar petitions from Poole, Dorsetshire, and a parish in Gloucester. Mr. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from the Arch deacon and Clergy of The Diocese of Cheater, against the Catholic Claims. ➢ir. WHITMORE presented a similar petition from Blidgenorth, county of Salop. , General KING presented a similar petition from Car berry, county of Cork, and other places in the same county. 'Mr. ELLIS presented a petition from the Unitarians of Newcastle-upon-Tyne in favour of the Catholics. Mr. H. DAVIS presented a similar petition from the parish of St. Augustine, Bristol, and said that at a great public meeting a few days ago, since bis Majesty's speech had been published, there were at least one hundred to one in favour of refusing further concessions. Mr. BRIGHT would oppose any further concessions to the Catholics. Mr. PROTHEROE was fearful that if Catholic Mem bers were admitted into the House, it would lose its Pro. testant character; he also feared that the discussions which world follow would excite a greater opposition between the two religions, and prevent the debates• being carded on with proper temper. Mr. H. DAVIS also presented a similar petition from the parish of St. Thomas, Bristol. Admiral EVANS presented a similar petition from Charleville County, Cork. Admiral SOTHERON presented four similar petitions from Botherstall and other places in the county of Not tingham. Mr. LLOYD presented a petition against the Sub-letting Act, from the Roman Catholic inhabitants of Newcastle, Limerick; another against the Vestry Bill, and one in favour of the Catholics. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL presented a petition from the Archdeacon and Clergy of Ely, against the Catholic Claims. Mr. MAXWELL presented five petitions against the Catholics, from several places in the county of Tyrone. Mr. BOYLE presented a petition in favour of the Catholic Claims. Sir T. LETHBRIDGE presented five petitions against any further concessions to the Roman Catholics. Mr. PEEL rose to present a petition from the Chancel lor, Master, and Scholars of the University of Oxford, against the Catholic Claims. The petition, the Right Honourable Gentleman said, expressed opinions decidedly adverse to the further concession of political power to the Roman Catholics. He felt himself hound to state that the opinions expressed in this petition were couched in still stronger terms than those used upon any former occasion. He felt himself bound also to state, that this petition had not been agreed to without due notice havit.g been given of the intention to. bring it forward; that it was agreed to by a more numerous assembly than had ever before been p convened for such a purpose in th e un i vers it y; and that, though not carried unanimously, it was carried by a larger. majority than upon any former occasion. The numbers for the petition were, he believed; 164—and against it 48. He felt it his duty to present this petition, in the absence of his Hon. Friend, who was prevented from attending by a domestic calamity; and in doing so, he felt it - incumbent on him to attempt, as well as he could, to do justice to the opinions expressed by the uni versity of Oxford—to state the circumstances under which the petition had been agreed to, and the relative numbers which appeared in favour of and against its adoption. Mr. BRANSBY COOPER, in presenting a petition against emancipation, begged to offer a few remarks of his own on its importance. He felt much disappointed at the opening,of. the Session to hear the change of opinion in Ministers. Every one was taken by surprise, and it was with regret they heard the change of the Right Honour able Secretary. From the corespondence that passed be tween them un that subject, he certainly was led to think that no change had taken place in that gentleman's opinion. He did not wish to blame him, but he must lament the cir cumstance. It had paralyzed the efforts of those disposed' to rely with confidence under the conviction that the cause would nut be injured in his hands. He had listened with patience to the explanatory speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman, in hopes of hearing some cause assigned for that change, but he must say he did not think any reason had been brought forward to justify his change of mind on this most important of all questions. He had said nothing but what had been said many times before. (Hear, hear.) The disturbance in Ireland might have been put down without Eman cipation. He could see no efficient cause at the pre sent time why a measure infringing the vital principle of the Bristish Constitution rOth in Church and State should now he granted.—( Hear, hear.) —On one point he entirely agreed with the Right Hon. Se cretary. He agreed with him that the system adopted of late years—that of the administration adhering to a neu trality on this subject—was absurd, and ought not to be continued. He thought that a Protestant King ought to be surrounded by a Protestant Parliament, and assisted by a purely Protestant Administration, (hear) and he had no doubt in his own mind, that in this great, and powerful, and enlightened empire, such an administration might be found to conduct the affitirs of the country with safety and success. It was said, however, that notwithstanding the objection generally expressed to the granting of concessions, still measures might be devised to prevent the apprehended danger. Now he must beg leave to say that, with respect to securities on so serious a subject as this was, he felt very great doubt and difficulty. It appeared to him that those who promoted this measure woul first produce the danger, and then seek the securities : they would let the enemy into the garrison, and then trust to his forbear - ance,—they would .let the wolf get into the fold, and, that done, he would soon get rid of his muzzle, and make use of those weapons with which he was provided to effect their destruction. The whok scheme of securities ap peared to him to be completely vain and illusory.—(Hear, hear.)—The only real security, in his opinion, which Pro testants could have, Was the total exclusion of the Roman Catholics.—(Hear, hear.)—Now, it was said to be essen tially necessary that this question should be settled. He, however, conceived, on the contrary, that it was finally settled before the revolution took place; and that the pro ceeding was then Confirmed, as a settlement, by the revo lution. It was allowed, on all hands, that Popery had nei ther changed nor could change—that it remained immu table. If this were so, then he could see no reason for any change in our Protestant Constitution.—( Hear, hear.) —Were not Catholics excluded from this and the other House of Parliament by oaths administered for the purpose of protecting the Protestant faith and the Protestant Church? Then, assuredly, if they introduced a Roman Catholic to ei ther House of Parl iament,they admitted aconscientious oppo nent of that church, who would do the utmost in . his power to undermine it. This way a danger against which they ought to guard watchfully ; for it was quite impossible, when Roman Catholics were introduced, that they should not endeavour to subvert the interests of the Established Church. And who would be the persons most likely to get into Parliament? Why, those very individuals who were more particularly and especially attached to the tenets of the Catholic religion, and who were, therefore, the more dangerous. Why, then, should they create a positive evil against which there could be no effectual safeguard? They had been told, likewise, that it was necessary to bring this question to a satisfactory conclusion. On that subject he perfectly agreed ; but he must say, that it was impossible to point out any security that could be satisfactory. He de nied that any such could be found ; and, -if the boon were granted with any species of securi ties, the Catholics would not be satisfied. Why, then, and for what purpose, did they en tertain this question at all? It would be said that this measure would remove the dissensions and which now pre vailed in Ireland; but was it likely that it could be carried without producing animosities amorgst the Protestants, both there and in this country ?—and thus, perhaps, the business would end at last in that very civil war which these efforts were intended to prevent.—(Hear.) They could not, he maintained, grant concessions without in curring danger, against which no precaution could avail. He was perfectly satisfied that the Cathodic claims could not be granted without weakening the settlement of the House of Brunswick to the throne of these realms—they eouhd not be granted without departing from the line of policy which bad raised Great Britain to her present high station amongst the nations of the earth—they could not be grant 'ed without danger to that Church which had long shone as th e glory of the Reformation—they could not be granted without tempting that Providence which bad so long and so singularly preserved our Constitution. lie, however, hoped that those evils would be averted by the efforts of the peo ple ; and he was sure that all true Protestants, in every pars of the country, would, to a man, resist those claims. He belonged to a united band of brothers, who were de termined to use all proper and constitutional modes to prevent the introduction of the Roman Catholics into either House of Parliament, or to highs offices in the State, on any terms or conditions. Lord NUGENT, before the petition was read, begged leave to say a few words about what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Gloucester. He seemed to think that no true Protestant could support Emancipation. He begged to be allowed to say that no man what ever might be his opinion respecting Emancipation, whether it was right or wrong, ought to assume to that one differing from'him that he was no true Protestant. The could assure the . House with all the sincerity and warmth of his Hon. Fiend, that he himself and the Other Members on that side the House, who agreed with him in thinking that - Emancipation should he granted, were as Protestant as his Hon. Friend. He considered true Pro testantism consisted in liberty of conscience, and it was to that we must look for smithies to the Protestant Church. Its best interests were advanced in allowing liberty of opinion. He should not have made these remarks, but he nswer could sit to hear true Protestantism applied . exclu sively to those svho opposed Catholic Emancipation. Mr. BR ANSB COOPER I•xplained. Mr. DITNCOAIBE wished to know what those persons lia , l to propose who wil, oppcsed to tilo measure about to he introduced by his Mejesty's Government, for surely they could not contemplate .putting down the Catholics by the sword. (Hear, hear.) If they could look to such a means, he felt assured they would never be supported by the people of England. Mr. W. WYNN should not have thought it necessary to trouble the House on this occasion, if it had not been for one expression which had occurred in the speech of the Hon.- Gentleman opposite (Mr. B. Cooper)—an expres sion which, he confessed, ltd had not before heard in that House, though he found that it had !wen most " saga ciously" used elsewhere. The Hon. Member had said, that this proposed measure would impair the title of the House of Brunswick to the throne. Amongst certain publica tions which fell into his hands, and which he read with great concern, he found that precisely the saute offensive allusion was made. One of tile morning papers recently contained the following passage :—" It was only the childless possessor of a throne, that would impair the title of his family to the succession." What was that title? how was it created ? By the choice of a free people— (hear, hear)—for it was the undeniable right of the Par liament of this country to limit the succession to the throne.—( Hear, bear.)—lt was on that principle that the House of Brunswick was brought in, not only for the pre servation of our religion, but for the maintenance of our liberties—(hear, hear)—and he thought it was most sirable, as the House of Brunswick came in on such a principle, that it should be well understood.—( Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentleman bad expressed his wonder that no grounds, satisfactory to him, had been stated by the Right Hon. Secretary of state, for altering, not his opinion, but his line of conduct. Now to him (Mr. Wynn), in his view of the case, it was a matter of wonder that that alteration bad not long ago taken place—(hear, hear)—in the mind of his Right Honourable Friend.— (Hear, hear, hear. )—He lamented deeply that it had not, because he believed that the degree of gratitude with" which this boon would then have been received, would have been greater; and because he feared a longer time must now elapse before the agitated waves, which had been chafed into a storm by the constant rejection of this question, subsided into a calm. It was impossible to con- ' ceive what the increased danger attendant on the settle ment of this question would be—Lit was impossible to con ceive when the fulfilment of those prophecies of mischief, which they had so often heard, would take place; but, on the other hand, no man who attended to the subject could deny that the existing and palpable evils which his Right Hon. Friend had described, had made great progress— had increased rapidly within the last two years. The Hon. Gentleman expressed it at as his opinion, that the • institution of Brunswick clubs was useful in that part of the empire. Now if there was one thing more than an otber,_.avhich pleased him in the measure lately intio 'laced, it was because it gave the power for putting down all those associations, whether Brunswick or liberal. (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman might look on the Brunswick Clubs as formed for the purest and most necessary objects (hear, hear) ; but could he be blind to the fact, that if they avers allowed to subsist, counter efforts would not be made on the other side.? (Hear.) He felt that his Right Hon. Friend had done himself the highest credit by the course lie bad taken. He knew it might be said to his Right lion. Friend " Why did you not retire front office, and pursue time same course you have done as an individual Member of Parliament?" He would say, that if his Right Hon.:Friend, after fair conaideration:— after balancing the choice of evils—evils which he saw and evils which were contingent—the evils of concession and the evils of refusal—if, after that mature consideration, he thought, as a Minister, that it was best for the interests of the country which he was bound to watch over, that a measure of concession should be agreed to, then it was his duty to propose it, whatever might be the sacrifice.— (Hear.)—But what would have been the case if his Right Hon. Friend had retired from office, and said, " I will support this measure as an independent Member of Par 'lament with my own individual vote, but I do not think it consistent with my former conduct to act as a Minister." Why every one of those Gentlemen who now complained, would then complain touch louder. They would accuse his Rt. Hon. Friend with having acted a mean, juggling, shal low, part.—(Hear.)—Would it not be said that " he re tired from office merely to escape the odium of bringing forward the obnoxious measure ; but, relying on the repu tation which he has established, he knows that he may return to office whenever this measure is completed ?" For his own part he thought such conduct would be most cowardly, and would merit severe censure and general in dignation.—(Mear.)—His Right lion. Friend had adopted a different course, and, tia• one, he had his (Mr. Wyna's) most hearty and cordial feeling. —(Hear.) Mr. PEEL could assure his Hon. Friend (Mr. B. Cooper), that whatever opinion he might express, it could never shake the perfect esteem he felt for his character, or his decided conviction that his Hon. Friend would never take any course, on any public question, without the most deliberate consideration and reflection. He rose chiefly to complain, but with perfect good humour, that his Hon. Friend bad alluded to a private correspondence which bad taken place between them. He would tell his Hon Friend, that he would rather have the correspondence in question read than alluded to; and when he wrote to his Majesty's Government to learn what course they intended to pursue with respect to a delicate question, he ought to know how difficult it was to give an answer without running the hazard of misrepresentation.—(Hear, hear.)—llis Hon. Friend ought to be aware of this, and he was sure that his Hon. Friend would not call on him to enter into a discussion in that House relative to a private correspond ence with Government on a subject of paramount interest. —(Hear, hear. )—llis Hon. Friend had said, that the force or violence which he (Mr. Peel) had described the other night as existing in Ireland, might have been put down by the strong hand of his-(Mr. Peel's) Noble Friend. He cordially concurred with his Hon. Friend on that point, but he would ask again, as he had on aformer occa sion, " When we have done, when we have succeeded, where arc we ?"—( Hear, hear.)--In I 79g, they knew the success with which a positive insurrection was put down, and the same success would undoubtedly attend the Government, if any attempt were made to wrest, by vio lence, those privileges which they claimed. But, suppos. ing the eompletest success to be obtained over the malcon tents, would not the question remain precisely as it was? —(Hear, hear.)—The point to wide!' they must turn their minds was, how to allay irritation—not how to exas perate it. , When individuals argued that this business ought to be brought to the issue of a civil contest, they should also consider what were the evils th a t wou ld arise on the moment, and the long succession of mischiefs that was likely to follow. The petition was ordered to be printed. Lord NUGENT presented a petition from a number of Protestant tradesmen, inhabitants of Oxford, in favour of the Catholic claims.—Laid on the table. -- Lord NUGENT gave notice that he would on Monday next present to the Llouse the petition of the Roman Ca tholic subjects of England and Scotland. Mr. 0. CAVE presented a petition from a number of females, resident at Castle Darlington, against the burning of Hindoo widows.—Laid on the table. Sir H. HARDINGE presented the army estimates for the current year.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. DAWSON presented accounts of the sums due in April, 1829, in respect of expences in keeping up his Ma jesty's forces in India. Also an Account of the Net Re venue and Expenditure of the United Kingdom.—To be printed. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. On the motion of the CHANeEt.r.on of the ENcliEguErt, that the Order of the Day for Committee of Supply be read, of with n system by which the public accountq might be simplified. It was a reproach to this co;intry, from which he bad hoped they would have been by this time free, and certainly it was higll time they were, that, while the pub • lie accounts of all other countries were perfectly intelli gible, theirs were perfectly unintdlligildv. The publ4l, ac counts of France and Am er i ca, t h e two countries to which he more particularly alluded, were iTc,t4igible to any man who understood the Est fc•,lr ri,iles of arithmetic, but they who were acco;inted a nation of shopkeepers, positively could not tell in what situation they were. Thia system, had been going on a great deal too lig:s, and he hoped this Session would not be allowed to pass over without complete reformation in the mode, of keeping the pubt.io accounts. It would be only justice for Linn to bear tes timony to the wish of his Majesty's Ministers to remedy this evil. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured the Hon. Member, that there was no indisposition on the part of his Majesty's Ministers to revive the Finance Com mittee. Considering, however, the duties 3vhich now de, voivedthpo n the Government, and after communications with several Members of the Committee, he had come to the resolution to defer for sometime the keviyal of the Com= mittre. With respect to the commission to which the Hon. 'Weather had referred, they had, ever since their appoint ment, been a ,, iduously employed upon the task - which had been committed to them, and it was only within the last few days that their report had come to his hands. That report was extremely voluminous, and be had not vet been able to peruse it. After a few words from Mr. 111731 E, The House went into Committee. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHZQUER moved the first resolution—" That a sum not exceeding 28,046,800/. be granted to his Majesty, to pay °Mind &- charge outstanding Exchequer Bills." Mr. HUME said, that though this was dealing in very large sums, he did not object to it on that account. Upon this vote however turned a question of the greatest impor tance. The unfunded debt had, as the Right Hon. Gen tleman very well knew, occupied a very large portion of the time of the Finance Committee, and he theithre did think that the Government ought now to tell them how far they meant to continue the unfunded debt, which in the last Session had been declared to be considerably larger than it ever ought to be. ' The dangers of such a debt were now very well understood, and thong's theie was no panic now, et, if such an effect were to happ.p, very serious conse quences would arise from their having such a large un funded debt. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that every beds' must see that a premature di.elo4ure of the in tentions of Government was calculated to produce the greatest inconvenience. Without, therefore, the least in tention of concealment, still he must refuse to satisfy the Hon. Member. Mr. MABERLY said, that the dangers to which they were exposed from the amount of the unfunded debt, called, in his opinion, upon the Right Hon. Gentleman to give the &sit ed.explanation now. Withholding it would he much more likely to give rise to speculation than affording it would. Mr. HUME, if there would be any danger in giving tic information he sought, had no inclination to press for it.— He should, however, take an call) , opportunity of calling upon Ministers to explain their intentions on this subject. The resolution was then agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved, " That a sum not exceeding 392,000/. be granted to his Majesty for the discharge of Exchequer Bills issued on account of loans advanced on public works." Mr. HUME asked, if, in the present abundance of money, it was intended to continue this system, or to wind up the account. There were reports that these advanees had bee❑ made on works on which private capital ought to have been employed. He did not know if these complaints were true, but he should shortly move for accounts, which would show whether the fact was so or not. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that this vote was to discharge bills Aready issued. He was to have an interview with the Board to-mo►row, and after that he should be able to give the Hon. Member the in formation be desired.—The resolution was then agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved, " That a sum of 4,600,000/. be granted to his Ma jesty, on account of unappropriated grants of the years 1823, 1824, 1825, 1826, 1827, and 1S S."--Agreed to. The House then resumed, and the Chairman reported progress.—Report on Monday. ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved, that the House at its rising do adjourn to 'Monday,— Agreed to. ASSOCIATIONS SUPPRESSION (IRELAND) BILL. On the Order of the Day for the House going into a Committee on this Bill, Mr. B. CLARKE could not allow this opportunity to pass without paying his tribute of praise to the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) for the course he had adopted with respect to Ireland. It was highly honourable and credit able to bins. He had been surprised to hear Honourable Gentlemen state that nothing had occurred in Ireland within the last six months to alter the sentiments of the Right Hon. Gentleman. A degree of excitement, much greater than had ever been known before, had existed in Ireland during that period. As to what had been said about infringing the Constitution, that subject ought to have been considered before the Union. It was too late to talk about it now. With regard to the Bill before the House, he approached it with some hesitation. Ile had given his cordial support to the Act of 1825, because }:.O thought it necessary, and because he thought it would lead to the measure to which this Bill was to lead. He should be much better satisfied if the present Bill and the measure for the relief of the Catholics had been introduced together. Having voted for the Act of 1825, and having been disappointed in the consequences which he expected from that Act, he thought it but justice to say, that, in his opinion, if it bad not been for the Catholic Association, the Catholic Question would never have been pl ace d w h ere it was. He hoped that every b o dy who knew him would believe that he did not say this in order to procure the good opinion of the Catholic Association. He confessed that he felt a deep interest in the Catholic Question—he would rather see a Catholic occupying his place in that House than be there himself. If by any unforeseen acci dent the measure for the relief of the Catholics should be lost, the Bill now before the House would be but a piece of waste paper, and the excitement which had hitherto prevailed in Ireland would be I;ut - a trifle when compared with the excitement which would exist in that country, But, whatever consequences might arise, he was ready to rely on the honour and sincerity of the Right Hon. tleman (Mr. Peel), and of the Noble Duke at head of the Government. Besides, the tenderness and regard which his Majesty was known to entertain for Ireland, was a great source of consolation to him. He begged par don for having trespassed on the House. An Hon. MEMBER, whsle name we did not learn, though he did not rise to oppose the Bill, yet implored the Right Hon. Gentleman to be e!autious in leaving summary jurisdiction to magistrates. The SPEAKEII *,lien left the chair, and the clauses were taken into consideration. Mr, G. MOORE proposed to insert after the declara tion, "and every assembly and meeting thereof (the Ca tholic Association), or of any of the members thereof, as such members, is hereby declared to be an unlawful as sembly," the words " under any name or devise whatso. ever.' Mr. PEEL thought the words of the 11111 sufficiently prohibited any meeting of the Association. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, Mr. TENNYSON, and Lord NucENT, concurred in the remarks of tho Right Hon. Gentleman. Mr. G. MOORE said there was nothing in the Bill to prevent the Association meeting under another name They might meet as a society for the improvement of Ireland. Mr. PEEL said, that the words were sufficient to pre vent any meeting of the Association as such. If the members of the Association met for any legitimate pur pose, for the improvement of Ireland, this Bill would not touch them. After some further conversation, the amendment was withdrawn. Lord NUGENT wished to know whether the two ma gistrates to whom an order was directed by the Lord Lieu tenant, to suppress a society, might not keep the order in their pocket to use against any society of the 'came descrip tion, or whether they would only be emp.owered by that order to act against a special meeting. Mr. PEEL said, that that was entirely a question of construction. A meeting against which an order was directed might adjourn and.'nold its sittings in another place. Mr. WALLACE wished that the terms of the Pruela mation had been cleAued by the Bill. It now rested with the Lord Lientenaot to use what terms he chose, and if they were too, general, they might put the Magistrates, who might be intrusted with its execution, in a situation of groat difficulty. Mr. PEEL said, it was not contemplated that there would be frequent occasion for putting in force the Dip, and if the terms of the Proclamation were settkd and mi nute, they might be evaded. After tome further conversation, the sithject was dropped. Mr, A. DAWSON was afraid the Bill would go to the oppression of Meetings which might be convened for a fair nil proper object, such as a Meeting for the purpose of I ' rtitioning Parliana:At. There were, too, certain Meet ngs in Ireland, which he was afraid the Bill would not apple to,—he meant moving processions, in which often.a great deal of warm feeling , was elicited. , Mr. PEEL ob serve d' that the Lord Lieutenant was re sponsible for the use of the powers intrusted to him ; and as for the moving processions to which the lion. Gentks um had, alluded, the Lord Lieutenant had the power of common law to put an end to theta if they te• tded. to a breach of the peace. lUr. PEEL . proposed to make an amendment in the second clause, to make an amendment on purpose to meet an objection made by an Hon. anA Learned Gent. on a for. mer eVe6ing. The amendment be would propose would be, not to limit the number 44 - 3ilagistrates to whom the order of the Lord Lieutenant was directed to two, but extend the number to fen 0; eve, giving the jurisdiction with respect, to the ounce to such magistrates as received the order, But in crag the offenders fled, he would enact that any magis - trate into whose jurisdiction the offenders fled, should take cognizance of the matter. Mr. E. DAVENPORT wisbe4 it to be enacted, t at the Lori Lieutenant ehottld direct no order to a Inniqrate tvlza