The Sun. — London, England, 1858-04-27 00:00:00

awaited him. He remained in the house of Commons , of which he was on e of the brighte s t h o e rn7 o m u e u ns ih a e n can o which he was fondly attached b duct of public business h ere incoumpatible with the pro per discharge of th e du de he owed to his constituents a t Liverpool. He accor dingly resigned his seat for that town and sought and obtained the confidence of another constituency. Wh o re did the freemen of Liverpool elect in his stead I No less distinguished a personage than Mr Huskisson, a gentl eman in evet y way qualified to be a member of an Indian Council. (Hear.) I heard a great deal the other night of the merits of Lord Canning. I am not prepared upon the present occasion to enter into an y controversy on that subject, but, be the merits of Lord Canning what they may, it is quite certain that be would never have been GovernmoGeneral of India had the freemen of Liverpool not elected his father as their representative in Parliament. (Cries of Oh, and laughter.) I aosi afraid I have been misunderstood. It is not my intention to sneer at Lord Canning ; all that I moan to say is that the career of Mr. Canning natu rally led to the position which his son now occupies. (Hear.) But be that as it may, I think I am fairly en titled to question the fairness or propriety of the manner in which we are accustomed to speak of the constituencies of England. Ido not arrogate for those whom I repre sent any superiority over the rest of the community, but I think the house will agree that those who are interested in the cultivation of the land are a class bigbly respec table—(a laugh)—a class that for their private virtues, their public spirit, and their stak e in the country as t he all principal employers of labour , must be recognis e d men in their calmer moments as coustituting one of thle best securities of social order. (Hear.) But if an exhibiting a good deal of feeling and acting under the influence of considerable excitement, to elect a particular candidate as their representative in Parliament, what do we find s They are described as serfs denounced as the instruments of feudal tyranny, and most skil ful cultivators of the soil are called ignorant and obtuse. Such is the manner in which one portion of the constituencies are treated. Again, upon similar occasions the electors who live in towns and cities are represented as simulate traitors, the would-be destroyers of our insti tutions, -while the poor freemen are generally regarded *.s the pariahs of politics. (Hear, bear.) If such be the character of the constituencies of England, what must we he who are their choice t (A laugh.) I have no doubt myself—and I think upon reflection every per son must agree with me—that the vast majority of our constituenoiee, whatever instances there may be of cor ruption or of intimidation, are actuated upon all occa sions by a strict sense of duty and a strong feeling of patriotism. (Rear.) If not, what hope can there be for the country ? (Cheers.) My opinion is that, if our pro position for giving to five great towns the right of elect ing councillors for India had not been arrested by a storm of prejudice, the electors of those important com munities would have acted, as the people tf England always act.under the fair and generous guidance of their natural leaders, and would have chosen men who would have done credit to their constituents, and rendered great services to the State. (Hear, hear.) Nor has anything that I have yet beard induced me to falter in the conviction that our proposition was a wise one, and I entertain the firm belief that hereafter it will be so re garded. (Hoar, hear.) But let me revert to the subject more strictly before the house. If you are to have a council for India, how can you form it unless you have partial recourse to the elective principle I You may extend the application of that principle in various ways, but the recognition of it as a principle of construction I defy you to renounce, without renouncing the very means by which you make a council numerous, learned, fill of experience, of high character and distinction, and capa ble of guiding any Minister, however undivided his au thority or sole his responsibility, with advantage and safety to the empire, (Cheers.) Such is the proposal you have before you.. All other subjects are but of secondary, though still of great importance. The dis tribution of patronage,. the forms of procedure, the question whether you can send commissions to investi gate the finances of India--and our plan for each an investigation was matured and complete—are points comparatively of detail ; but it would be impossible to Exaggerate the importance of the question, whether or not you will have a real Couoscil for India in England. (Hear, hear.) If the resolutions which we have laid upon the table, or the spirit of them, be adopted—modi fied, perhaps, in some parts or texpareled in others—we do not despair of constructing a. bill which will secure the good government of India, as far as it can he carried on in England. But if the resolutions are not adopted, or even the spirit of them—if prejudice, imperfect know ledge, or political combinations arrest their course—let me entreat the house to t ike the great Indian question out of the dangerous sphere of political passion and party conflict. (Cheers.) Unless you can constitute a Council equal in knowledge and experience to the pre sent Court of Directors, while free from its failings, 1 advise you not to relinquish a machinery by which India has already been governed, and which has to deal with interest more vast and various than many persons imagine. If you reject the resolutions which we have laid before you, and which if carried out would create a body capable of controlling the Government of India —if you take the contrary course, and adopt the prin ciples of that school of barren simplicity to which I have already referred, accepting a proposition like that of the late Government, which only veils the hideous dangers which such a scheme of policy would inevitably being about—depend upon it that the fate of your Indian Empire is sealed, and you will deserve to lose it, because you will arrogantly declare yorirr intention to govern it without knowledge and without experience. (Cheers.) Lord PALMERSTON—Anybody who had en. ered the house without knowing the business of the eve nirg and listened to the eloquent speech of the right hoe. gel.- tleman, would naturally have inferred that he was mei • ing the second reading of the India Bill No. 2. (A laugh.) The able and elaborate speech which we have just heard contained hardly anything applicable to the motion More the House, bat the whole, or at least the greater part of it, was devoted to a vindication of the unfortunate measure to which I have referred. Followieg the Example of those eloquent men on the other aide of the Channel whose harangues upon certain mournful occasions we have heard or read with great admiration, the right hon. gentleman has pronounced a funeral oration upon the deceased India Bill No. 2 (laughter) ; but while the orators in France are chosen from the friends of the dead, and bad, probably, paid to them during their last illness all those cares and atten tions which the best medical skill could devise or the most anxious solicitude render, the right hon. gentleman has appeared as the murderer of the "dear departed" to whose eulogium we have just listened with so much surprise and pleasure. (Laughter.) Strange that he should be the person to pronounce an unlimited pane gyric upon the victim of his own hands ! The right hon. gentleman, like Antony, came to bury his Bill, and not to praise it, but carried away by his feelings h e h as treated us to an elaborate defence of a measure which, nevertheless, he has thought fit to abandon. (Cheers.) We have been assisting at a :sort of Irish wake, The right hon. gentleman did not say or sing in the language of the afflicted peasant, " Och, hone, why did you did" (great laughter) I but we are entitled to ask the right hon. gentleman: now that he has told us how highly he estimates the merits of the deceased Bill, " Why did you kill it?" (Continued laughter.) The right boy. gentleman, to speak seriously, has referred to topics connected neither with the India Bill No. 2 nor with the resolutions before the House. He began by passing a very severe censure on the British constitution ; and he said—speaking no doubt from his own personal ex perience—" What can be so absurd as the present con stitution of a Brinell Cabinet?" (Laughter.) " What can be so ridiculous," he said, " as putting one man into a Cabinet because he understands agriculture ; what can be so absurd as putting another man into a sLabin et be cause be has an extensive knowledge of commerce ?" And the climax of absurdity, according to the right hon. gentle man, was putting a man into a Cabinet because he coul.l make an eloquent speech. (Renewed laughter.) " A e " said the right hon. gentleman, " if I were on th e !titer side of the table, if my tongue were unloosed and I were released from the shackles and trammels of office, 1 could tell you how absurd is the constitution of a British Cabinet." (Cheers and continued laughter.) Sir, I don't follow the right hon. gentleman through his theo retical declamations. I am content with the British constitution, arid, so far as my experience of Cabinets goes, lam content with them. (Laughter.) But, ie• deed, the censure of the right hon. gentleman reminds one of those Latin lines : B a n sea , viva, Venus corrurnpunt corpora nostra, Sed faciunt vitarn balnea, vine, Venus." 1 knowledge of agriculture, an acquaintance with com merce, and powers of oratory may be absurd qualifica tions for a public career and for official Existence, but, nevertheless, they are elements of our political life. (Roar, hear.) I should not upon Ws occasion have thought it right to go into the comparative merits of the different measures that have been laid before the house for the government of India if the right hon. gnu tletnAn had not rendered some notice on our part absolutely and essentially necessary. In praising his own deceased bll be has pronounced a very severe censure on the arrange ment which we proposed,—not quite so severe a censure as that which he passed on the Manchester scheme, but . he declared that our plan was nearly as bad, although • its tad qualities were a little veiled from sight. Both had the defect of simplicity , whichthe right hon. gentle man seems to think the greatest political sin—a per - let i ly inexpiable offence ; and certainly it is a charge which ever heard brought against a defunct bill of the right hon , gen tl eman. ("Hear,' and a laugh.) We all r emem b er . themanrerin which that bill was received us by the hoe. the Spaniel, (tlear, hear.) have heard a story of Sovereign who reigned w he n "D on Qui xo t e " - vas first published and laughinu immodwerhaot, seeing a man reading a book and why .11'1Y' sent a courtier to be was reac ting ask what he was The courtier came back and id tki ' et wa h s wag reading " Den Quixote,' " I thought said th o monarch ; " when ever I see a man laughing I kvineoeww.tith:t is reading andthis India Bill. ' Don Quixote.'" And CO it you laughingone laughed People met one another in the street , was laugh r in e. What sad everybody laughed. " Whit are said one. " Why, at the India Bill, to be sure. at 1" are you laughing at ?" "Why, I t the India Bill, too." (Laughter.) That was the recep tio n tio had something to do that it met with out of doors, and I say, therefore, that the public, as well as the Cabinet, with the death of that unfortunate and immature mea sure. The right hon. gentleman admits that, although in our bill, and in the house in giving us leave to bring THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EV EATING, APRIL giving the Government leave to bring in their bill, did not affirm any of the detailed conditions of either mea sure, nevertheless that there did appear to be a general assent to the principle that the Government of India was to be transferred from the Company to the Crown. The right hon. gentleman laid that down on the basis on which both his bill and our own were founded. But if that were acquiesed in by the house when we introduced our bill, and if it were taken for granted by the Govern ment when they introduced their's, why are we now to go into committee to rediscuss and reaffirm a principle which both sides of the house have admitted to be the principle upon which legislation should be based ? I merely mention this in passing ; but it appears to me that the first resolution is the repetition of a doctrine -which is generally recognised, and which only few persons dissent from. (Hear.) Without adverting to the resolutions, I shall confine my observations to one or two points arising out of the elaborate defence which the right hon. gentleman has made of his bill. He has argued with great perseverance and with great ability —as he always argues everything—in favour of the principle of elective members for the Council, and he has particularly dilated upon the propriety of having in the Council persons elected by Parliamentary consti tuencies. New, if that be so strongly his opinion, may I be allowed to ask him whether he intends to reinsert that provision in the bill which I presume would be the consequence of the resolutions being adopted ? (Hear.) Does he look upon that provision as being only, like Juliet, in a trance from a potion given by the Go vernment for a temporary 1011, or does he acquiesce in the general verdict of the public by which that part of his measure has been condemned I I presume that his praises did not imply any intention of reviving that pro vision, and while we pardon the paternal affection, therefore, which was displayed by the right hon. gentle man over the tomb of the deceased, we may assume that there will be no attempt to restore that most objection able feature of the measure. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman argued at great length in favour of some portion of the council being elected ; and, referring to the example of this house, he said, " We never hear any objection to members of this house being elected ?" But it seems to me that the whole of that argument is founded upon a false analogy. Is that council to per form the functions of this house 1 If so, let all the mem bers be elected, and by Parliamentary constituencies if you will. If you intend it to be a little Parliament to ad minister the atfaiis of India, well and good ; but, then, what becomes of your principle of transferring the go vernment of India to a responsible Minister of the Crown who, as stated in the resolution, is to perform all the functions and to possess all the power and all the re sponsibility of a Secretary of State, and who is to admi nister the affairs of India in this country in the same manner and to the same extent as the Secretary of State for the Colonies or the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs administers the business of his department 1 Tne two things are perfectly incompatible. I will not dwell upon the principle which is admitted by every constitu tional lawyer and by every man who is versed in the subject, that it is not in accordance with a fundamental doctrine of our constitution, that any person who forms part of an executive government should owe his appoint ment to any other source than the Crown acting through its responsible advisers. What we want is that the In dian Minister should be accountable to Parliament for his conduct and that he should not be shielded from responsibility by a Council owing its appointment to independent sources, and not amenable to the CroWD, the effect of which would be to oppose, to thwart, and to impede the action of the Minister. 11 it be thought so essential to have elected members in the Council— f you mean that a man is necessarily a better councillor for being elected than if he were nominated by the Crown, why are not all to be elected, and why should any be nominated ? (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman said ' that people had ridiculed the idea of giving the appoint ment of councillors to the freemen of Liverpool ; but he said, " Did not the freemen of Liverpool elect Mr. Can ning, and did not this house appoint Mr. Canning to be President of the Board of Control 1" Wby no ; this house never made any such appointment, Mr. Canning was elected by the freemen of Liverpool because he was an eminent public man, a great orator, a great states man, a most able and distinguished man. They chose him, not on account of any particular knowledge which they believed him to possess of the affairs of India, but because they believed him to be a good man to manage the affairs of England. (Hear.) It was not this house that elected Mr. Canning to office, but the Crown in the exercise of that constitutional discretion which vest its the Crown the appointment and selection of public ser vants who possess the confidence of this house. In the same manner Mr. Huskisson was not chosen by the free men of Liverpool that be might be President of the Beard of Control, but because he was eminently conver sant with matters of trade, and had studied the prin ciples of commerce, and because the people cf Liverpool, being mainly interested in the commercial prosperity of the country, thought Mr. Huskisson would be a useful member of the Legislature, and a supporter of sound commercial principles. Therefore I say that the analogy which the right hon. gentleman has endeavoured to establish has entirely failed. (Cheers.) I own it appears to me that the council in the bill of the late Government was too numerous. (Hear, hear.) I do not profess to have that knowledge of the working of In dian business which should make me competent to express an opinion, but it seems to me that 18 is an incon venient number, and that, so far from aiding, if they all take part in the discussions, you will have " too many cooks ;" and although " in the multitudeof councillors there is safety " is a good general axiom, you may ove.- do it, and the number may be too great. (Hear.) But wh A were intended to be the functions of this conceit 1 It was not that the council were to be the responsible governors of India. It was not intended that they shou:d be a council to originate, direct, and decide, but a coun c 1 to be merely those advisers which the right hon. gen tleman so well described as an essential part of the de• partment which has the management of Indian affairs, The right hon. gentleman well said that public men who have devoted their at ention to Parliamentary wa fare, 1 national interests, and European concerns, naturally come into office without that detailed knowledge of the affairs of India which is necessary to enable the Govern ment well to administer the affairs of India. The right hon. gentleman also truly said that India is not like one of our other possessions abroad—that it does not contain a single population—that India is not all under our sway—that the Indian Government involves rela tions with independent princes, with men of different re ligions, laws, habits, and institutions ; 'and that untess you have a practical knowledge founded upon local ex• perience, you are likely, in your ignorance, to go wrong and do great mischief. (Hear.) Well, sir, we felt that as well as the present Government. We felt that it was necessary to give counsel and support to the Govern ment of which the Minister for India is only the organ —because the Cabinet is the quarter from whence comes the decision on all matters, and it is that the Cabinet may be furnished, through the Indian Minister, with local knowledge that you propose to give him a council to advise and assist him, but not to control and overrule him, because the moment you do that the responsibility of the Government ceases—(loud cheers)—and then you have a double Governeneut re-established for In dia. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) These matters wll be argued at greater length on a future occasion, but I could not allow the observations of the right hon. gentleman to pass without notice, because I think that the more men come to reflect upon that which was intended to be the principle of the change we preps ed —.namely, the transfer of the Government and the re sponsibility from the Company to the responsible advisers of the Crown—before we consent.that this shall be the fundamental prineiplo upon which we are going to act— the more convinced we must be that the council ought to be a council of advisers, and not of controllers. (Hear.) You do not want to establish a new Board of Control,' but to transfer the Government in such a manner that the Ministers of the Crown shall be responsible to this house for the entire direction of Indian affairs. (Cheers.) There seems a fatality in Indian affairs by which an in veterate principle of duality clings to everything. (Hear.) We have had for a long time a double Government. That was felt to be an evil which we were called upon to cor rect. We were turned out, and thus there came to be the two Administrations and two bills. The present Govern ment were not satisfied with that, but adopted two me thods of proceeding—a bill and a resolution. I only hope that they will push that principle a little further, and make it necessary, for the purpose of completing the measure, that we should have two sessions —(a laugh) certainly, the course they adopt is likely to lead to that result ; but I will say nothing more on that subject for the present. That which induced me to rise was to vindi cate our measure from the charges of the right hon. gen tlemen—to show the principal points upon which their measure differed from ours and from the principle laid down by others representing the more simple measure — and to convince the house that may of these points of difference are not cunsistent with the fundamental prin ciples of the British Constitution, and are inconsi tent with the fundamental principle on which it is proposed that the transfer of Indian government should be made to the ew n. (Loud cheers) Mr. GLADSTONE—The house has listened to a most interesting discussion upon a subject of paramount im portance, and in that discussion we have heard expressed the views of those who are friendly to one plan of (leaf ing with Indian affairs before the house, and in some degree to the views of those who are friendly to the other. I suite agree with my noble friend who has just sat down that we could hardly have expected the state ment that we have heard to-night from the right hon. a g n en d t In tel; a o n b j ,tchte inC Chancellor of the gi v atosaya Exchequer—(hear) fewwordsupon what I conceive to be a point now properly to be decided by the 11 , use of Commons. That point did not form the gist of his speech in which the right hon. gentleman de fended the wisdom of the measure of the Governmen , , / nor was it one that formed the gist of the speech of my noble friend, who endeavoured to set up his own bill in opposition to that of the Government. What is the quer tion before us ! We are invited to vote that on Friday next this house will resolve itself into committee to con sider the acts of Parliament relative to the government of India. Now, sir, I for one, cann ot j )in in estion tho, c ( ;r:sure which has been bestowed lepon the sugg y noble friend the member for the city of London (Lord J f m Russell), that the best method of proceeding will be by resolutions. (Hear.) I believe that it might have beer, a happy circumstance—it would certainly have been so is the view of those who think that this is the best mo ment for legislating for India—if our original mode of proceeding had been by resolution ; and I am certain, from Parliamentary recollections and traditions, tii t there are abundant precedents to justify and recommend such a course. (H ear , h ear .) Th e proposition of my noble friend has at last had this effect, whatever other effect it may have, that we are now practically in the position in which we stood .on the night of ~the discus sion on the motion of my hon. friend the member for Huntingdon. (Hear.) We are called upon now, not to act upon any vote which we may have previously given, but to make a completely new commencement of the government of India. (Hear.) I was one of those who originally felt that the moment was not opportune for undertaking so formidable a task ; and so long as the flames of war remain unextinguished in India, I, for one, am yet to be convinced that it is not rash and ill-advised to legislate for that country, (Cheers.) But I do not seek to revive the argument that was advanced by my hon. friend the member for Huntingdon and by others, and contested with equal ability by those upon the oppo site side. The decision of the house is upon record, and it is to be held good and sound while the circumstances remain unchanged. But do they remain unchanged ? (Cheers.) Was not the hope held out t• us at that time that before we proceeded far with Indian legislation we might have to congratulate ourselves upon the comple• tion of military operations in India ? Was it not the hope that by the end of April, when that intelligence was expected to arrive, we should have made conside rabhs progress in the passing of a bill ? We have lost be tween two or three months, add I do not think there is a man among all those who hear me, however sorry he may be for the facet, who will deny the proposition that if we have moved at all in the matter of legislation for India since the motion of my hon. friend the member for Huntingdon, we have moved backwards. (Hear.) Take the promoters and authors of the first bill. The noble viscount in his very amusing and interesting speech ad verted to the dualism which he says has unhappily marked all these proceedings. There is a double Go vernment to be abolished, he says, we have had two bills and two Governments have tried their hands at it, and he hopes that it won't go a little further and that we shall not have two sessions. It is sometimes difficult to dis tinguish between the ironical and the earnest, but I cer tainly did not think that the vein of irony was wrong in the noble viscount's declarations. (Hear, hear.) I thought he both anticipated that the termination of this session might not see the settlement of the India Bills, and while anticipating that as probable he did not deprecate the delay as a great misfortune. (Hear.) The noble lord observed with great force on a former occasion that the evil of postponing legislation was secondary in its cha racter, but that the evil of rash, ill considered, and ill-di gested legislation would be of immeasurable importance. And, has not the Chancellor of the Exchequer—to be equal with the noble lord—made in significpt terms a similar suggestion ? Hes be not warned the house that unless we can appoint a council equal in knowledge and experience to the present Court of Directors, we should do well altogether to pea pone this question ? (Hear.) I look then not only to the time that has elapsed, not only to the validity of the original reasons for delay, because that is a plea upon which I admit I can hardly be permitted to dwell ; I look to the misgiv ings of the authors of the two measui es, to the state of public effairs, to the period of the session at which we have arrived, and combining these considerations toge ther I cannot permit the motion which you hold, sir, in your hand to be put from the chair without protesting I against an affirmative answer being given to it, But I 1 have other reasons besides these. If we had before us what appeared to me to be the elements of a good and efficient plan for the g overnment of India, or if we had before us a plan to which this house could wisely give its assent, with only certain amen :meets in detail, tlin under the authority of our vote of February we might, consistently at least, go forward with the - work of legis lation. But is that the state of the case ? We have heard to-night, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, an in genious and elaborate defence of his hilt as he originally introduced it. I don't know what effect that defence has made on the minds of members, but I must confess that if I had felt any scruples or aty objections to the prin ciples of that bill they have not been removed by tee right hon. gentleman's speech. (Elear.) But I am bound, in fairness and in equity, without censuring any one, and I trust without t ffendieg any one, to say that in neither of these bills can I see the elements • f a good and sound measure, (Hear.) Arid let nee here make this remark on the bill of the late Government as illustrated by the speech of the noble viscount:—When he was arguing agaieet the application of the elective principle to the framing of a council for India, and when he was speak i g of the sole and undivided responsibility of the Secre tary of State, I thought I traced in his speech, as in his former declarations on the same subject, an inadequate sense of the difficulty of legislati on on this matter. 1, for my part, cordially subscribe to the principle which was laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the cl rse of his speech, that if we are to add a council to the orge nimition of the future Home Government of India, it ought to be a council equal in knowledge and experience to the Court of Directors; and most reluctantly should I see any bill go up from this to the other House of Par liament which substituted for the Court of Directors any body—call it what you will, or appointit how you choose —which was not fully equal for every purpose of advice, suggestion, and, speaking moraly, I will even say of control, to the present Court. (Cheers.) But what is the great difficulty that we have to enc muter in this matter? It is that you are attempting to govern by means of a people another people, separated from us not by distance only, but by language, by blood, by tr edition, by history by institutions, and by all that can draw a line of de markation between man and man. Is it not the greatest problem in politics how to govern a nation by another nation I I. it not by far the greatest difficulty which we have 13,fote us—how to provide only, io our systetn of government, fn. the protection of the interests and feel ings of the people of India ? With the greatest faith in Parliamentary institutions for the discussion and settle ment of public affairs in England, I frankly own that I have not equ faith in their operation for defending the interests and feel rigs of the people of India. The ques tion which we are bound to ask ouradves before all others, with all others, and above all °triers, is—what protec tion can we provide by the law not only for the mainte nance of hose interest', but likewise for respect, care, and tolera - ion tooards the feelings • f the people of India? I will ray this of the Court of Directors, that it has practically been a body protective of the people of India. I aria not friendly to its maintenance, far lees am I friendly to that state of severance which exists at present between the Executive and the iudependaut element .of the Indian Government ; but this I dosay, that we ought not to assent to any plan which makes less efficient pro • vision for the protection of Indian interests and Indian feelings. And I look in vain to the plan of her Majesty's Government and still more in vain, I think, to the plan of the noble vi .count the member fur Tiverton, for any protective power that can be compared in point of effi• cacy to the Court of Directors. (Hear, hear.) But there is another topic a'together new, so far as this discussion is concerned, which nevertheless wei g hs upon my mind almost oppressively with regard to legislating on this question. The first great point to which we have to loos is to provide protectiou for the people of India against the ignorance, indiscretion, and errors either of the Exe cutive, or of Parliament, or of the Government of this country. But besides that there is a second que s tion which I am afraid has hardly been named since these de bates began. I know not what the feelings of others may he in regard to it, but I myself entertain so strong an opinion upon it that lam bound to notice it, It appears to nee that there has grown up, partly from circumstances beyond our control, and partly by our Own legidatiee, a system fraught with danger, not only to India, but ako to the privileges of Parliament, and even to liberty as well as the public interests at home, by the undue, and, had not the Chancellor of the Exeht quer frightened me, I would have said the unconstitutional exercise of power by the Executive Government through the means of the Indian army and treasury. (Hear, hear.) I cannot look back upon the history of wars, more than one, which have been waged in India during the last 20 years, with out saying that the power lodged in the hands of the Queen's advisers, as it has been exercised in these in stances, has been wholly at variance with the interests f the country, and with the rights and privileges of the House of Colllololls. (Hear, hear.) I ern obliged to take the last instance as the one most strikingly idustrative of the princip'e to which lam now adverting. I take the case of the Persian war. (Hear, hear) I am not now about to discuss its pal cy, nor shall I enter upon the reasons fur which it was made, nor the terms on which it was concluded ; but this I say, that if wars are to be made by the Executive Government, through the means, in the first instance, of those resources which the Indian army and the Indian finances afford, without the knowledge and consent of Parliament, and if we are to be apprised of those wars for the first time when military operations have commenced, and if we are never to be consulted until the moment has come wh• n it is absolutely neces-ary to draw funds for the supp rt of them from the British Exchequer, then these two consequences follow. In the first place, tba:, system is destructive in the last degree to the interests of the people of India, because it is in that nay that a great part of our financial difficulties in India have arisen. (Hear, bear.) To take India into your own hands, to govern from a distance by means of strangers and foreigners a nation which has a hint pry and traditions of its own, is a difficulty seri us enough. it is a problem for which perhaps you may in vain seek a permanent and satisfactory solution. But over and above thi - difficulty you have been accumulating upon India a deb which, though some have attempted to make light of it, appears to me to be far heavier in proportion than the crushing and gigantic debt of England. When we talk of our own heavy debt we have this consolation, that we have Lean mor t gaging our own estate ; but when as speak of the debt of India we are speaking of a debt charged up n a country whose revenues we are drawing in this country by virtue of the power of the sword. Rut apart from that I say it is most unjust that the Executive Government should have, for any purpose of its own, or for any purpose of the people of England, the power of entailing these tremendous charges upon the people of India. (Cheers.) The conseq uen ce as regards the people of India are riot pore striking or mor e coe elusive than the objections to this policy whic h arise out • f its bearing on the rights of this hoes'. A, regarcie oft n h o e t li r b e e c r o t g ie n s iseany P.irliament, it seems to rue t make little oiffereece w h e the r a war made without our assent is a war with P e r s ia, er a war with Russia. W ea r.) I car;- t i h ii : t p i la c n ti s un befo A re nd th h e ow ho duosewet stand with re f erence i: t wti7 h eea e et etdpr b li ot a ctoa relti estaspuponlimitationsietoatik t ei hti power o wout— f ore vitalprudenc e uponr o i question lthde o Qn o,D t? think ri frankly t,ie wsear rs safe,l j I do not think we are secure, I do not t hink we meet h a the power ndcireumsp o m f ti t o h n e Crownunless with respect to the use of th e I n di an t reasur y and array. (Hear, hear.) Do I find a n y suc h li m itations in t h es e plans ? On the contrary, the pl an o f th e r i g ht bon. gentlemen the Chancellor of the Exchequer is entirely silent with regard to it. The plan of my noble friend the WOW ber for Tiverton is not silent, bat the provisions which he has introduced into his bill—drawing a distinction be tween war in Asia and war out of Asiaeand enacting that when military operations are actually begun a come:mai- cation of the fact shall be made to Parliament within one month, or within a month after Parliament has met—l do not hesitate to say are far worse than no provisions at all .o now (cheers) ; for they amount substantially to a legislative sanction of a system with respect to which we are at leeee entitled to say that, up to the present moment, it 1 - had the countenance or approval of Parl;- oas never I do not intend to enter at length nament. (Cheers.) p c s e n l es plansa i n on d o the i a c t e ßn e r e matters, but m opinion the main conditions England,executive n protectionm mentionen tt the thenei neither object of our legislation for India are protection ft , : the Indian people against the errors of tish Parliament against an undue exercise of power by the find any provisions at all, or any provisions worth naming, for these vital purposes. The objections of detail are, I am afraid,in themselves so numerous that they would make almost unlimited demands upon the time and patience of the house to solve them. I complain that Ido not find in these plans the spirit and intention which seena to me to be essential for satisfactory legislation. Upon that ground, and still more upon the general grounds that have been previously urged, 1 must respectfully remonstrate against the resolution that is about to be put from the chair. (Loud cheers.) And although I know not whether that remon strance is at the present moment more than an idle sound, yet I confess I do anticipate that as the session advances, as weeks glide away, the satisfaction of those who have concurred in it' will become stronger and more de c ided, and the disposition of those who have not concurred in it will likewise gradually develops itself to regrets that they had not, while there was yet time, taken their stand upon the very same ground that I presume to occupy in protesting against attempts at legis lation which, under the circumstances of the moment, we do not believe can possibly reach a satisfactory result. (Cheers.) I close what I have to say by quoting those still more memorable words of the right hon. gedtleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer - I hope I do not misrepresent them :—" Althoagh we now advise the house to enter on the question of Indian legislation, yet during the last two months—since I have become a member of the Government —every day of my experience has more and more convinced me that there does not at present exist among us that ma turity of op nion which is requisite on questions of the first order in point of difficulty and importance." (Cheers.) C. lone! S 1 ICES would Reserve any observations until the house went into committee upon the resolutions. He could not help, however, expressing his entire concurrence in everything which hal fallen from Mr. Gladstone. Fur ther consideration had convinced him the more strongly that the present was not the time for legislation. He would ask whether the present government of India had failed or broken down ? Had it failed to do all it had been caled upon to perform? On the contrary, he maintained that the Indian government had proved itself most efficient. Various grounds Lad been urged why they should proceed to legislate upon tide question in the course of the present session. The first ground was, that the House of Com mons bad determined by a large majority that it would legislate. Now, he was sure that no one knew better than the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli) that the majority of 145 which voted in favour of the introduction of the bill of the noble lord the member for Tiverton, did not in the slightest degree pledge the house to proceed. It was a mere matter of courtesy which the house usually accorded nut only to Prime Ministers, but to private members who asked leave to introduce a bill. The next ground was that a double Government existed ; ergo that double Government ought to be abo lished. But surely it ought first to be proved that the double Government, as it was called, had failed, and was injurious to India and the people of this country. That had never yet been done. Even the noble lord, when propo.Fia; to abolish the existing system, had highly eulogised its practical working. In fact, he had never heard so much of what Cobbett used to call "bosh" talked as upon this question. Tha next ground they were called upon to legislate was de ' ference to public opinion. His inquiries on that point led him to the conclusion that the " public opinion" referred to very much resemble I the " we, the people of England" of the three tailors of Tooley-street, the house would be, perhaps, amazed to learn what the public opinion upon the subject was. As far as the public opinion in favour of a change in the Government of India was indicated by the petitions to that house. It was asfollowe:—The total num ber of petitions connected with Indian questions was 30i. How many did the house suppose, out of that ecrenber, were in favour of transferring the Government f India from the East Indio. Company to the Crown ? Only three. (Hear.) So much for public opinion, then, and the voice of the country on this matter. Another reason wasthat the House of Commons having, by a majority of 145, voted in favour of a bill being brought in, the Government in India would be paralysed if it were not proceeded with. There was nu ground whatever for such a supposition. Two of the com monest wo, ds in India with respect to the " Company's raj" signified " fortune" and "prosperity," and after thepreaent tempest passed away that "raj" would be stronger than over. At the present time it would be a most imprudent, im politic course to introduce any organic changes into the go vernment of India; but when the pacification of the country was completed, it might be right to turn attention to prac tical plans by which the Government of India might be con centrated. For his own part, he thought that if they ad mini4erei the Government in the Queen's name, and put a Minister of State at the head of the present Court of Directors, the thing would be done, and that the Queen's name would come like an angel of mercy, healing the wounds we lamented to inflict, and heralding a long career of peace and progressive prosperity to the people of India. (Divide, divide.) Sir H. VERNEY—(divide, divide) - believed that a great change had come over the house and the country also upon this subject, since it was last under discussion, and the opinions of a great number of hon. members who hail voted for the introduction of the bill of the noble lord were —that the proposed change was not expedient at the pre sent time. (Hear.) The noble lord had proposed a great change in the Government of India—a change by which all the checks upon the Board of Control would be taken away, without proving that these cheeks were either un necessary or injurious. So far from being of opinion that. these checks were not required, he held that Parlianunat ought to increase the powers of the Court of Directors s and, had they possessed greater power over the Beard of Coutrel during the last qua'ter of a century, they wool have been able to prevent many of those wars which had absorbed the revenues of India, and revented the Govern ment from proceeding with public works and internal im provements in the country. (Bear.) Ho regretted that the right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone) did nut terminate a speech winch spoke the sentiments of a large number of members in that house, by a motion which would have tested whether the house was prepared to proceed farther at the present time, and might have brought the matter to a conclusion at once. (Haar, he-tr.) Mr. GIIEGO AY said he entirely concurred in the ob servations of the hon. baronet (Sir H. Verney) that it was roost desirable to ascertain the opinion of the house at that stage, and that somebody should move that they should not go into committee. After the speech of the right hon. gentleman (Hr. Gladstone), in which opinions were expressed identical with those of a large number of members, he believed that the effect of a division at that stage, instead of going into committee on Friday, would be, if not to show a majority—at least such a minority of eminent mon of all parties--as would have the effect of in ducing tho country at large to postpone legislation to a mere fitting period. (Hear.) At present the house were working in the dark. They had not sufficient light thrown ou the path in which they were walking. The course pro posee was encumbered with every species of danger, and under these circumstances he would have wished that the right hon. gentleman opposite (Hr. Gladstone) had brought forward a motion against going into committee on these resolutions. But as the right hun, gentleman had not done so, he (Mr. Gregory), believing that the course proposed was dangerous, would, as an humble member of the house, take on himself the responsibility of moving as an amend ment, " That it is not expedient to pass any resolution fur the future government of India." Mr. W. E WAR.T, in seconding the motion, said there was a diversity of opinion on the subject of the council, The noble lord the member for Tiverton proposed one species of council, and the right hoe. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer a more extended council. A third party, of which he (Mr. Ewtrt) was one, disap proved of rally council at all, The Manchester Chamber of Commerce and many of the public newspapers strongly ad vocated that opinion. The Liverpool Chamber of Corn merce had petitioned the house to postpone the measure till next session, and then to appoint a committee of in quiry. He thought that to proceed at present would be only wasting the time of the house, and therefore he would support the amendment. Lord JOHN RUSSELL. —The hon. gentleman who moved the amendment proposes that there should be no legislation during the present year with regard to India. If an hon. member of this house is ready to take upon him self the responsibility of rejecting what this house by a large majority has resolved upon, he ought to have taken on himself the additional responsibility of g , ving notice to the house of the amendment he intended to move—(hear, hear)- -in order that hie proposition might be discussed in in a full house, In any early period of the session, and in au unusually full house, after full deliberation and much argument, the house came, by a majority of 141, to a re solution to allow the head of the Government to introduce a bill, the purport of which was to transfer the adminis tration of the government of India to the Crown. Now, if we are to depart from that resolution we ought to do so only after full deliberation and due notice. (Hear, hear.) I own that with regard to the question itself I should be sorry to see the house reverse its decision. I think the present Gevermuent were perfectly justified in saying that • although we have thought the time inopportune —al though we thought the introduction of the measure pre mature, yet we see the evils that must ensue, if, after the resolution of a full house, the government of India is con demned, n o reso l u ti on i s taken to found any other au. ho rity instead." I think that the government wore justified under those circumstances in putting in abeyance their pre vious opinions, and in endeavouring to legislate fur India. lily hon. friend who has spoken says it is late in the session, but in 1813, 1333, and 1853, bills were proceeded with in this house up to a much later period in the session (Hear, hear.) And what is the obstacle to prevent us from considering this greet subject ? Subjects of equal if not greater imp , ,rtanee are entertained every year at later periods, and, therefore, there does not seem to me to be any mason why this subject should not be proceeded with. I know tiler , is a disadvantage in considering a question of this kind when our Indian establishments are surrounded with dasgere, but the resolution of the house had been come to when we were in the hands of our enemy, and without those advantages which victories since achieved aff)rd us. Although it may be some impeach ment Of the wisdom of Parliament, yet it has generally happened that no eery great attention is paid to any sub ject until circumstances of a very serious nature demand it. My opinion is, that in 1833, had the Earl of Aberdeen proposed a cbs.ngeof this kind, the majority of the house would have refused to adopt it, on the ground that India was in a quiet awl undisturbed state. But now our a'- teution is tivottect to the subject, there is hardly an hon. gentl !roan who hie not since April last year phi groat at tention to the snijeci. Wolf, suppose that the mutiny was sopprasseti, and that n 'thing occurred beyond little skirmish es with small Indies of mutineers, do you think the public interest on the subject would continue ? I think it would vet y much abate, and that other subjects would orbs to occupy stir attention. I doulit, very much whether its the b,ginitin; of 1859 there would be so much know lell,so and elolib.ration given to the subject as can be given to it at the present time. Ido not, therefore, see why we shNeltl not now, in tide the very beginning of our delibera tions, proceed :,o consider the resolutions of the Govern ment. No question has been raised to-night as to whether we should proceed by resolution or by bill. The proposi tion of this right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) was that. we should go :nto committee to consider resolutions. Most unfortunately, I think, ho gave us a long defence of his own bill which he has already murdered with his own hands. Of that bill we will now say nothing— De mortuis sail nisi bonum. - - —(Laughter)—but 1 think we shall ba, after some days' con ii.teration a'A to come to some conclusion on the subject. Look at the great subject of slayer- - - posed to be considered i , - - of which mow.' - - many " 2 1.;4', 8 5 8. which Lord Derby pre- cured the house that when in office he had gone over every committee, and the consideration possible scheme of election which could be suggested, but e .ect seven or eight days. We may require as he could not find one which was compatible with a com- Lox. the consideration of this bill. I think, however, mon sense view of the question. When the right hon. she points of consideration are not numerous. The first gentleman (the Chancel'or of the Exchequer) talked of point is that you are asked to transfer the whole authority election•and representation— of the East India Company to the Crown. The next The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I did not question is, whether the the Secretary of State or the other talk of them. (Laughter.) minister you are asked to set up, is to have a council to Mr. V. SMITH said he thought that the right hon. assist him. This will not require very long argument. gentleman had certainly referred to the subject when he The arguments lie on thesurface one way or the other. The spoke of the 101. householders, for instance. However, next thing is to consider what is to be the nature of the i the fact was, that they could have no representation of council. Upon that subject I entirely agree with the ob- India, because they could not face the real difficulty—they servations of my noble friend the member for Tiverton. I must represent the natives, which no man of common think it wise to have a council for the purpose of assisting sense would think of proposing. They, therefore, threw the Secretary of State. I think it wise that he should be election, not on the tax-payers, but on the tax consumers. informed by Persons of Indian experience of their opinion These pensioners of the military and civil services were with respect to any measure concerninglndia, for however persons who were interested simply in deriving their re- Plausible it might seem without such advice, it might venues from India. He would take one of the g lennominee have the effect of creating discontent and even rebellion in the right hon. gentleman's proposed council, for examp India. I think it advisable to have a council to enable the that gentleman, early in his life, had been ten years in minister himself to know what are the opinions of men of In lia, but had never been there since. (Hear, and a laugh.) knowledge and official experience, but I hink it would be Such being the difficulties connected with election and re a great mistake if we attempted to give an independent presentation, they had reverted to nomination. But it authority to such a council as that would divide the respon- seemed now to be presumed that a nominated person must sibility, the unity of which is the great object of the whole necessarily be dependent, and it was the fashion to call measure. Surround him with able men. Do not shrink them "nominees." One hon. gentleman who had spoken f r om giving salaries that will enable you to obtain the ser- had gone so far as to call them " the miserable tools of a vices of the best men who return from their important corrupt , Government." (Hear, and laughter.) He (Mr. functions in India, but., =t a minister himself have the V. Smith) did not, however, see why nominees should be responsibility—and , supreme he cannot have considered as being necessarily dependent. Such had not that responsibility-1:, • supreme in his council, and been the case. Surely they could not deny the indepen stand up in Parliamen and defend the policy of which he deuce of the hon. gentleman the member for Leominster is the author. (Hear.) Another point has been referred (Mr. Willoughby). (Hear.) He cool I not be called a to, namely, the appointment of a portion of the council by barren nominee"—(l aug ht er )- - or , as th e h o n. an d the electors of certain towns. If I could satisfy myself learned gentleman the member for Enniskillen (Mr. White that there was any body of electors that could select mem- side) had said, " the miserable tool of a corrupt Ministry.". hers of the council better thanthe Crown could do, Isheuld (Hear, and laughter.) Nominees for a certain term of give the power to do so to that body, but I own lam not years would be found as independent of the Crown as the able to satisfy myself that such would be the case; for elected members :hemselves. The member for the Univer either a body of electors would be exceedingly numerous, city of Oxford had said that there was nothing in the bill and consisting of persons having little or no interest in the to limit the powers of the secret committee ; but there was good government of India, or they would be so few as a clause which compelled the Minister of the Crown to to give rise to cab is. I think that, with certain restric- bring before Parliament, after a certain period, the meam-s -tions, the wiser course would be to give the power by which he had incurred any war in the East. The fact of nomination to the Crown • and certainly no was, the see: et committee was a sham. The President of man can be better qualified by ability and experience the Board of Control was the secret committee in fact, of Indian matters to make a proper selection and he could issue orders through the secret committee than Lord Ellenborough, the present President of the without consulting or informing Parliament at all. The Board of Control. I believe that any Government would superiority of their bill (Lord Palmerston's) was, that it endeavour to select the best men that could be procured, i did away with the secret committee. There, however, and those who would endeavour to promote the best in- were questions which they would have ample opportunity Wrests of India. It is well known that men in India take of discussing in committee. He thought these resolutions little interest in the politics of this country, and it has a cumbrous and inconvenient mo.ie of proceeding; but been stated of Lord Hardinge that he had had an aide-de- rather than oppose any obstacle to the settlement of the camp for three years without knowing that he was a Ra- question this session, he would assent to llienr. dical. After spending some years in India, whether in a I Mr. P. O'BRIEN contended that no grounds had military or civil capacity, a man gets gradually weaned been showh for altering the verdict which a majority of from those habits and partialities which divide politicians 145 of them had given on the subject some two or three in this country ; and, therefore, I think there is every months ago. chance that it will not be difficult to obtain able and im- Mr. WHITESIDE said the difficulties of this question partial advisers of the Crown from that quarter. If this house does not think fit to consider the question .relating to the Government of India in the present year, I should not agree in their decision ; but, if that is their decision, I think the matter should be deliberately weighed. We should consider what will be the effect on India of this sudden change of opinion on the part of the house. I think the hon. member for Buckingham is one of those who are in the habit of sliding from one argument into another. He says, " Why legislate this year? Why not wait till next year ? There is surely no hurry. The Government of the East India Company is as perfect as any other, and there is no reason for changing it." (Hear, hear.) Well, if there be no reason for changing it, say so plainly, but do not hold out the hope of such a change when you have no intention that it should be made. If the present sys tem of government be so perfect as has been maintained, it will be better to uphold it ; but the majority at both sides of the house have come to the conclusion that a change ought to be mace. I do not think the immediate change will be either so vast or so striking as some persons expect, though no doubt groat changes may afterwards be expected. The Board of Control now possesses a power which can overrule the Court of Directors, so that there cannot be any very great increase in the power of the Crown, while there would be a different mode of trans acting Indian business, but which will lead, I believe, to the future consideration of the financial system of India; and that consideration will lead, in the course of years, to many changes, which I believe will be for the benefit of India, which is the main con,i deration. If any change would be for the benefit of the millions of India over whom we now hold rule, that would be a sufficient la mon for it. I hope, under all the circum stances of the case, that the house will vote in favour of the resolutions proposed by the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. MANGLES said he should vote against any measure which had for its object to take from the East India Com pany that power end authority which he believed they had used for the welfare of India. If the directors were over would increase as they progressed, but if the right hon. gentleman opposite always dealt with it in the same pleas ing manner as he hart treated it that evening, it could not be in more pleasing hands. (Laughter.) Sir E. COLEBROOKE thought the house ought not to come to a division on such a subject as this without a full debate. There ought to be a clear understanding that a division should be taken on Friday night. After a few words from Mr. COSSLEY, Mr. GREGORY withdrew his amendment, saying that he could not misunderstand the feeling of the house on the question, and claiming, on behalf of any more prominent member of the house, the power of renewing the motion, if it should appear necessary hereafter, in the further pro gress of this question. The motion was then agreed to. SUPPLY. • On the motion for receiving the report of the Committee of Supply, Sir GI C. LEWIS wished to ask the tight hon. gentle man the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he would have any objection to postpone the bill relative to the Ex chequer Bonds, as he wished to call the attention of the house to the subject. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was a question of urgency that the Exchequer Bonds Bill should be advanced further that night. and he should be obliged to the light.hon. gentleman if he could reserve his observations till the War Sinking Fund Bill was brought forward. Sir G. C. LEWIS said he should certainly acquiesce in the wish of the right hon. gentleman, though he should have preferred making his statement when the Exchequer Bonds Bill was moved. Ou the question that the report of the Committee of Supply be received, Mr. BENTINCK, after reminding the house of the dis cussion which had taken place with reference to the gun boats at Hasler, said he wished to ask the right hon. baronet the late First Lord of the Admiralty a question on the subject, the answer to which, .if it accorded powered. in their opposition, he would still do all in his power to render the measure as perfect as possible. Mr. BAILLIE said that the amendment of the hon. member for Galway seemed to him to say that they ought to proceed to legislate for India by way of bill rather than by resolutions. (Cries of no, no, and real ) The words of the amendment were, " That at this moment it is not de sirable to pass any resolution," &o. That did not say how ever, that they were not to proceed by way of bill. But the question before them was as to their mode of proceeding, and he thought it would be more convenient to proceed by way of resolutions, which was better than if they were to bring in a bill. Sir G. GREY said he did not understand that the issue which they were called upon to decide was whether they were to proceed by bill or by resolutions, if he under stood the observations of the hon. member for Galway his arguments were against the present mode of proceedure, and that, in fact, we ought notnow to attempt to legislate for the government of India. And understanding this to, be the object of the hon. gentleman in moving this amend ment he (Sir G. Grey) was disposed to vote with the Go vernment against it. But if the question was, as was urged by the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Baillie), merely whether they should legislate for India by bill or by resolutions, then he must reconsider the vote which he , should give on that subject ; but as the question raised by the amendment was whether they should legislate at this moment, then he should vote for the Government. The right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford had certainly shown that there were precedents for proceeding to legislate on this question by way of reso lutions; still his (Sir G, Grey's) opinion was in favour of proceeding by bill, but ho was not disposed to press his opinion to a division, as he would not take the responsi bility on himself of causing delay on this subject. Mr. Walpole then rose, but was met by cries of "the member for Galway," whereupon the right hon. gentleman sat down. Mr. GREGORY said that the object of his amendment was to induce the house to get rid of all legislation respect ing India this session. (Hear, hear.) And if he succeeded • in inducing the house to assent to his amendment, and by doing so, get rid of the resolutions now before it, then the house could proceed to consider the bill of the noble lord. the member for Tiverton. Mr. WALPOLE said that if such was the intention of the hon. gentleman, it would have been as well if his amendment had been so worded as to enable the house precisely to understand it. The question really before them was, was it desirable now to legislate for the Home Go vernment of India ? Ho was one of those who voted with the hon. member for Huntingdon, in February lest, against altering the Home Government of India at a time when a mutiny was raging in that country, and, having so voted, if the question were now in the same position in which it then stood, he would have concurred in the amendment proposed by the hon. member for Galway; but let the house consider the state which the question was now in. A large majority affirmed in February last that they ought to proceed to legislate for the Home Government of India this session; but if they were now in April disposed to rescind the motion come to in February, then due notice ought to be given of a motion on the subject, so that the house might be prepared to give a direct vote respecting it. Let, then, the hon. member give notice of a motion for Friday night, when the resolutions were to be brought for ward, and then the question raised by the amendment could be fully discussed. (Hear, hear.) Under the present circumstances of the case he would not enter into the clues. tion as opened by the noble lord the member for London, but he would be prepared to do so on a future occasion when the whole question was before the house. Sir F. BARING said he voted on a former occasion for & postponement of legislation, and he should still support that opinion. But, at the same time, if they were to change their course, some notice of a motion to that effect should be given. (Hear, hear.) Ho did not attach much weight to changing the resolution come to by the house in February last, because if they did not do so now they would in July. (A. laugh.) At the same time, notice should be given, and then however small the minority, he would not be ashamed to form one of that minority. Lord GODERICH said that he voted in February last in favour of legislation, but after the speech of the right hoe. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was most important, he thought, that no hon. member should pledge himself to any decided course till Friday next, when the whole subject would be considered. Mr. HORSIIA.N said that it appeared a change had taken place in the feeling of 'the house, and that it had spread very far beyond it. This house had; made a great mistake iu entangling itself in Indian legislation before it had made itself acquainted with Indian requirements. Wera not all important acts of legislation preceded by inquiry ? Were they agreed as to the basis of legislation I Did any of the schemes proposed meet the goceral appro bation of the house, or would any one of them, if carried, raise the character of the house? In neither of the bills were to be fount the elements of what was required as the existence of a council, and the nature'of the Govern ment in India itself was evaded rather than dealt with. The difficulties were so groat that it was not likely they could legislate satisfactorily on so important a subject this year. That feeling was growing in the house, and he thought the Government would exhibit the greatest moral courage in declaring openly, and acting upon, this opinion which they really entertained. They could pot be so san guine as to hope for success this year. The expression of feeling in the house that, there should be a transfer of the government of India from the Company to the Crown was general, and therefore on Friday next the first of the series of resolutions to that effect might be agreed to ; but as for the second and following resolutions, it might be easy to adopt a course to withdraw them for the present session, and a motion for their postponement would, he thought, meet with general sympalley and support. He ' believed the feeling of the house was so strong on this point, that, although he did not wish to initiate any mo tion himself on the subject, if no other hon. member would come forward and move that these resolutions be deferred he would himself do it. (Hear, hear.) Mr. VERNON SMITH said he did not believe the opi nions of the Liberal members in favour of legislation were altered, although the opinions of the members of the pre sent Government were changed. Ho thought the conduct of the Government extraordinary in proposing legislation, when they were individually opposed to it. The Govern ment of which he was a member did not propose to touch, the Government of India. They only proposed to remodel the home government of India, about which, as ho was in formed-by experienced Indians, the natives of India did not care at all. Therefore, after what had passed in that houseahe strongly deprecated the proposal for the appeint went ZI a committee. Neither did he approve of proceed ing by way of resolution. The business of the India House during the existing uncertainty could not proceed satisfac torily, and if this great subject were postponed for another year the consequences might be most s erious. They had, he thought, sufficiently consideredthe main propositions of an Indian bill, and he could not conceive what could be ga , ned by the postponement of legislation for anode year, (Hear, from Lord J. Russell.) When his nobl f er nd pro posed 'theo-esoluticns it was intended that they should con tain a wider, range of principle than those which were now proposed by the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The result of the resolutions now pro f o ed- would simply be that they would have the debare twice instead of once. As to the question of nomination, be agreed' that if .a suitable system of election could have • been deviled it would have been preferable; but ho as with his anticipations, would show the public money was squandered, and at the same time the necessity of some more competent management in the Admiralty. The ques tion he had to put was, whether the right hon. baronet was pro ared to state to the house whether the arrange ments for hoisting up the gunboats at Hasler were entered on with the sanction of the naval officers of the Board of Admiralty, or at his own.direction. Sit C. a OOD said he had given an answer to the hen s gentleman's question on a former occasion, which he sup posed would have sufficed. He would now, however, state that the question was merely one of hauling up vessels, an , I, therefore, one which a person of mechanical skill might be competent to settle, even if he had never been to sea at all. Various plans for the purpose had been pre pared from time to time in the office of the Director of Works, with whom, he might say, rested the engineering works of the Admiralty. A. report was prepared on the subject, and the plan being carried nut, he was bound to say he thought it was a very convenient mode of getting the boats op. It was so considered by every member of the Board of Admiralty. Further than that, he must 'date that he was never in the habit of giving orders himself without consulting his colleas.nes. In this case he had cer tainly not consulted any officers at Por smouth or Haslar, but he never beard any objection taken to the system. Sir C. NAPIER said that, having promised to make an, inquiry into this subject at. Ilaslar, he had done so, and ho would first remark that, a first objection to what had been done would be this—that the boats were hauled up in the wrong place: The selection of the place was decidedly bad, but more than that, the first boat of the 40 hauled up had to go a distance of 70J feet, the next 40 more, the next 80, and so on ; so that he supposed it would take a month to launch them. He would take that opportunity of saying that Portsmouth harbour, being very much ci,cumscribed, the Government would do well to purchase land for en larging it, and if that were delayed much longer the pur chase might become more difficult. At Malta, too, the land should be bought. He would also mention that he had received a letter, stating that some ships had been sent to the coast of Africa with a short supply of coals. Mr. CORRY remarked that the vote for the purchase of land at Malta had not been struck out, and the land would be purchased. He could say nothing about the coals. The several votes were then agreed to, .and the report received. THE . ARTILLERY AND ENGINEERS. On the order of the day for going into committee of sapply,on the army estimates, Mr. MONSELL moved that an humble address be pre sented to her Majesty, praying her Majesty that no altera tion may be made in the existing arr ngements which re gulate the admission to cadetships in the Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers. The right hon. gentleman said he had not the least fault to fin,' with the right hon. gentle man opposite, the Minister for War, who had done all in his power to prevent the existing system from being dis continued. He had continued it for two years longer, and he (Mr. Monsell) was therefore not without hope that it would still be preserved. It had been remarked, that as so many of his countrymen succeeded at these examinations it was really an Irish question, but to that he would only say, that disclaiming such an idea, if even the maxim detur digniori meant " let it be given to an Irishman," he was sure English and Scotch gentlemen would not for that reason wish for the abolitiou of the present system, but would rather seek to improve their own schools and col leges, to enable their own candidates to compete more suc cessfully with those from Dublin. At present, all natural born subjects of her Majesty, between the ages of 17 and 20, were allowed to compete at Woolwich for these cadet ships. The examinations were conducted by men of emi nence in the several departments of science, and it had . been admitted that the system had worked well. It was now sought to introduce a qualification, to be obtained at the Royal Military College, Sandhurst. So far as the prin ciple of open competition went, it hadibeen conceded by the Horse Guard; ant the board was composed of military offi cers, presided by H.R. H. the Commander-in-Chief. The hon. member then stated that in the Ecole Polytechn'que,in France, the successful competitors were of the ages fromdB to 20. Did the house, he would aik, consider it expedient to give a monopoly to Sandhurst, and to abandon a sy stem which workei tolerably well. The great military Powers edu cated the students separately intended for the Artillery and Engineers and the Line. To educate the students in ono common school who were intended for the different branches would be exceedingly objectionable. There was no doubt that at Addiscombe the students intended for the Artillery and Engineers wore educated along with the officers intended for the Line in India. He thought there were serious objections to educating the students in the differeut branches at one common sctiool. The only altera tion he would wish would be to follow the advice of Cul. Wilford, to allow theoretical and practical education to go on together, to raise the ages of the boys, so that they would stand at 17 to 20, and to allow the pepits at the school at Woolwich to samnpete with Saudhurst. The young men now admitted at-Woolwich were of superior attainments. The effect which the present system had produced throughout the country was this—there were se veral schools which prepared their students to compete at Woolwich; and if there was a certainty of the system being continued other public schools would give similar education. The hole member then contrasted the system of military education given in France with that which was given in England, and he entreated the right hon. gentle man (General Peel) not to alter a system which was work ing tolerably well. (Hear, hear.) He concluded by mov ing his motion s hie attention duty if h e h 1 r. L id n not Flto press Y upon w o u l t d h e f w e l g h h e t did n . n g o e t u p t e l e r perform u the necessity of attending to the request whicn hat been made by the boo, gentl eman (Mr. Monsell.) Sir F. SMITH had had an opportunity of judging of the education given at Addiscombe. The whole time spent in acquiring mathemat ics was only, two years, about fi ve months in each. He hoped his hon. and gallant friend would not break up the present system, for if he did so he would reduce the standard much too low. Sir W. WILLIAMS agreed with his hon. and gallant friend, and hoped no change would take place In the pre sent 'system, He was himself an officer belonging to Woolwich, but he might say that that place produced officers second to none in Europe for scientific attainments. He had given the entire subject his consideration, and hoped the hon. and gallant general the Secretary for War would not make the proposed change. General PEEL assured the house that he made no established wefp rrareeesestpos as sbt ne at p a iaave n tsne ondbtf that otlavoatt Woolwich ooht i s c etwe h hai wec a d hhme c lo; e oi rscs but, since changes whatever in the system. L or d P anmure, w h en pn S :ma r d e b t ef a dro a hro y uft r f Ths o eth r m commiss i onsewW: ga a ebs r nu , entroatthli aast: -t to he S w aT ,r since he came into office, that had been altered by his Royal Highness the Commander-in -Chief, and young men were now enabled to enter for as many examinations as they thought proper. He believed that competition would now be opened to a greater number of persons than hereto fore ; and certainly the final compeCtive examination for the scientific branches would be higher, and he believed more satisfactory. He found that w.s the system esta blished by Lord Panmure, who paid the greateSt attention to the subject, who sent a commission abroad to inquire into the systems at foreign colleges, and he certainly thought_that the alterations he made were most beneficial. He thought, however, that an inquiry might be of use ; and, though;he could not agree to the motion of the hon. gentlemen, he was of opinion that an inquiry would effect great good. Mr. BUXTON thought it was bad for boys themselves to begin their professional education at a very early age, or that they should mix only with boys such as at Sand hurst, who were intended exclusively f, r the military pro fession. Mr. DEASY believed the course adopted by the Covern• merit was a retrograde movement, and he hoped the house would not consent to the proposed alteration. Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT thought the house had now arrived at a clear apprehension of what the changes were which were contemplated with respect to the mode of admission to the army. He thought nothing could be more absurd than to say they were to return from cow petition to nomination, and nothing could be more credit able to the Commander-in-Chief than to give up the patronage which he possessed. Under the new systeln introduced by Lord Panmure, candidates were to be ad mitted to the theoretical class at Woolwich, but not to the practical class. What he (Mr S. Herbert) proposed was, that Sandhurst should be enlarged, and that the age of the c ludidates should be imcreased from 16 to 17 years, so as to admit the young men who had passed their first examina tion at Sandhurst, to be eligible to enter into the competi' tion at Woolwich. By that course, they would keep the young men up to the mark so long as there was compete' tion ; but they would never have the efficiency under coin' petition so long as competition was not kept up to the mark, and that would be the cwe with the examination* at Woolwich if competition was not kept up to the mark. Another question had been raised, whether Sandhurst should not be kept up as a monopoly, regulated by a scale of payments, in which general officers were to pay less for the education of their sons than other ranks and classes of society were to pay. When he was Secretary for War, be did his best to'resist any scheme cf that kind; but be . thought it was not the duty of the State to give gratuitous military education to any class on the ground of destitu: tion of the party seeking it. He believed all the costs of e Incation had bee reduced, and the question now resolved itself into a question of costs. The original plan, which be hoped to see followed out, was, that young • men might be admitted by competitive examination to the practical class at Woolwich. The system of nomination was gone, not, he hoped; to be pushed back. . The gallant general said it was, in his opinion, desirable to have a commission of in,' quiry ; tiny had had commissions of inquiry before ; en d he would suggest to the gallant general, instead of waiting for inquiry, to bring his own common sense, of which be possessed a good stock, to bear upon the question, and to go on by competitive examination, by which they would I obtain an able and well-educated class of men for the eel" vice. Mr. P. O'BRIEN hoped the system of competitioa would not be abolished. Lord V A.NE TEMPEST said he had served with foreign armies, and he was enabled to say, from observat ion , an experience, that the education of foreign officers was net, in his opinion, superior to that of English officers. !' Mr. ROEBUCK wished to say a few words to the righ t hon. gentleman the member for Limerick about he ' motion. The (motion was that they should vote • dress to the Queen not to allow any change to take place in the existing system at the present time. Now, he v wanted to know what the present time' meant, and will' the existing system was. As he understood, Lord rag; aure, at the beginning of the altered the system,bl l . t the cad he changed it again.N o w, whether was it W . last or the first system that was to be in existence ! Tbe house ought to know what the present state of things Wsh and not to proceed to pass a resolution without knoWillg what it was they were doing. Mr. MONSELL, after a few words by Mr. PA which, owing to the noise that prevailed by cries " Divide," were inaudible, begged to suggest a slight alts' ration in his motion, and to propose, instead of the word! " existing arrangem en t s ," t o i nser t " the principle of 0. isting arrangements." Mr. WALPOLE said that Lord Panmure had establish these open examinations during the war, with the unt r % standing that at the , peace they should terminate. inIL gallant friend (General Peel) had c on tin ue d th em f o r tr 6 examinations longer. The right hon. memb er f or WL shire thought it very desirable th a t th ese exam i n atO should continue, but still was of opi n i on th a t th e matt er should be left in the hands of his gallant friend, who Inv derstood all its bearings so well. ' Captain VIVIAN thought it necessary that the questO should be settled one wa y or th e o th er , an d that the public should know if Sandhurst was to have a monopnl of the cadetships. It would ha ve a mos t i n jurious effe ° if the matter were hung up for two years. • General PEEL said there had been no alteration in th system, and wished to know whether it was meant to L's' dude Sandhurst. The house divided— For the motion For the amendment 217 Majority - —4 o —4o The announcement of the division was received. / 11 loud cheers by the Opposition. The address was then agreed to. EXCISE DUTIES BILL. On the motion that this bill be read a second time, si t Mr. P. O'BRIEN said he had a petition to pri a(minst the bli from the traders of Dublin. n sl 'Sergeant DEA.SY wished to enter his protest ag 31 , 1 ,. selecting Ireland alone for the purpose of making up 5 "f ffeiency of the revenue. He would not, however, offer A't opposition to the passing of the bill, but he thought tlOl,l among other taxes of local burthen, th a t f or the ge net valuation should be placed on the national exchequer. * d Mr. P. O'BRIEN could not assent to the suggeeti °n ief compromise made by the hon. and learned member o i, Cork. The measure w a s not only an injustice to 1re2 6 00 because it saddled one portion of the kingdom witu bj whole of the deficit in the revenue for the year, M i red contended that it would not realise the amount anticiptito by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He moved OW bill be read a second time that day six months. Mr. ESMONDE Bacon, led tbe amen _ e The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the hon. dment. membell o ct wb l had opposed this bill had not shown any sufficient e ° 4o4 for its rejection. On former occasions it had been conteft that the increase of duty would lead to a large amenY a bco illicit distillation, and that the employment of the consythoo lary in excise cases would make them unpopular. Bot h The predictions had been falsified by subsequent experience• ofl additions to the duty had not increased illicit distillation , n 'iot so far as he was aware, the constabulary were still as Pl o se and as efficient a body as before the duty was increase d ' o bi two grounds were those mainly relied upon in former S''' a te, opponents of any addition to the duty upon Irish trot and as they bad proved fallacies in practice, they couul o r now be urged with the weight which attached to the ra m tio4 vious to experience. (Hear, hear) Looking at the 9. ll , e s ' t in the abstract, he could not see why such a duty as t u d o ol. spirit' should not be equalised in all parts of the king l , o He believed that if it was so in Ireland the effect weal ( ' - 0 0 benefit the large distiller and manufacturer of spirit' B ,' o tcli enable them to compete more successfully with the v on clo and English distillers than they were now able to dO ;0 indeed, if the bill passed, he believed that it would be 301 to the dealers of this particular article is Ireland. had Mr. GROGAN said the hon. and learned gentlete o t fd forgotton one class of dealers whom the bill would 3 4'0 4 most injuriously—he meant the re t a il d ea l ers . The ' l ' d might be beneficial to the l arge distillers, but to th e body of publicans, who had invested a great amount of." ? to in their businesses, and who supplied the wa nts 0 0 0 1 general body of the public, the effect must be - injurle ti ci, he ia many cases ruinous. If this measure was passe_ 0 0 0 , thought that home-made spirits should be placed on 07, footing as colonial and foreign spirits in this re spect: iv Ad right tha ; the ievenue should be protected, but h i jitef . • like this ought not to be committed. He did not h e els that a particular trade could not bear such an increase ItS,dr 2s. Bd. a gal on to 7s. 10d. in four years, and should, I .'" fore, support the motion. el Mr. MAGAN supported the amendment. elP r Mr. M'EVOY disputed tho calculation of the Mune o f tY., the Exchequer with respect to the probable amount , o tir tax. He believed that no increase in the revenue " accrue from the impo ition of an increased duty. 64.* ‘ After a few remarks from Lord NAAS and Mr. 01 THY, the house divided, and the numbers— For the second reading For the amendment Majority The bill was then read a second time. CHELSEA WATERWORXB BILL. The bill was read a third time. • EXCHEQUER . The Exchequer Bills, 20,911,5001., 81LLS Bill was read thi time. 227 319$ THE FRANCHISE PRISONS BILL. This bill was read a second time LONDON CORPORATION REGULATION BIL""tioil Mr BAINES moved that leave. be given for the Corpo l c iez of the City of London to be heard by counsel before the c , mmittee on the Corporation Regulation Bill, against of of the said bill. n Mr. WYLD hoped the committee would b e an ope-,,D iti as here were many objectionable clauses in the bill W " exception might be taken. "° LPOLE ti• of Mr. WA wata,sansoanceicteizs:intyoffoiL• _nought that the Corporation :. coo l ' City of London would be s ) well represented on t " .. „ oli o ' mi la tte r. e, C t o t sa th id er t e h o it nd b ILY everal of the clauses of the bill. He believed that Us t t oi the citizens also objected to these clauses. He thong /1 „ 0 r e ' ought to have an opportunity of urging their objectiom fore the committee. The motion was, however, agreed to. oeinn,gheaatlbofee:ted, 04 . THE RIVER THAMES. t 0 ; Mr. KENDALL moved the appointment of a sale, 0 0, mittee to take into consideration Mr. Gurney's relint%tioP the state of the River Thames," and such other su;gei6o; as they might deem it expedient to entertain for its o_ 4 , 0 ' tion, especial .y in the immediate vicinity of the. LTOw Parliament.—Agreed to. LAND TRANSPORT CORPS. to in' Lord A. V. TEMPEST moved for a select committee quire into the justice of the complaints of the officers ° v ro: Land Transport Corps, as set forth i n th e i r pe t ticl! A l l io' seated to this house, Aug. 1857, alleging that they b e :, r eceived the rate of half-pay w hi c h , they state, they Wer titled to claim.—Agreed to. eTROOPS IN THE EAST INDIES. a)e Mr. MACARTNEY m ove d f or a return of the Ilu„'-to tb British troops now serv i ng i n India and chargea ble revenues of that c oun t ry, show i ng the number uncle' , A rt' branch of the service, namely staff, cavalry, infantrP o ot v ii lery, engin eers, marines, and sailors, and the total re t.sfr same for one year, ending Ist Jan., 1858. And, like eao of the British forces serving in India, and the tota,lto, the same f or th e year en di ng I s t J an., 1856 . __A g reo The house then adjourned at a quarter past 1 o'oe' — --- il BIRTHS. BADDELEY—On the 23d inst., at Waltham Abb e l f 'of ' wife of Major Fraser Baddeley, Royal Artillery ' 111‘ daughter. 0 ' sof I al LANRNSTER—On the 25th inst., at 8, Saville - r ° ~- lington•garderm, the wife of Edwin Lankeeter' ._ .., F.R.S., of a daughter. 1 , MARRIAGES. f 1 ~h o . 4 HAWKER -JONES—On the 22d inst., at the Chur u A jto' l s . Nicholas, Brighton, William Henry, son of ; El l Hawker, of Ashford Lodge, Hants, to Engelsq , both, youngest daughter of the late J. Jones , t , l DtTry Orrnoud, Cardiganshire. Sliy Lums--HuNT - On the 21st inst., at S. MargaretAoWrof m m inster, La iston ‘‘. interbotham Lewis, EA.,' „ g irt° . bury, solicitor, to Walterine Wood, third John Hunt, Esq., of Man •hester. 4' t DEATHS. lgob BARNARD- On the 23d i ns t., a t C ave C a stle, Ir a Henry Gee Barnard, E sq , age d 69. Sd ir rf ..,100 1 CARDEN -On the 22d inst at Ramoan Roct°-•bal castle, county Ant r i m , Admiral John Sarno ° aged 87. sittii FA IRM A N—On the 24th i ns t., a t Ly ns ted, n:, f r bournb, Samuel C ree d F a i rman , Esq., agedi u " -- --- 1 1 y $O. LONDON : Printed and Published by KURD offi<lce'osif of No. 112, St ran d, P r i n t er , a t The. Sr- n -- 4 ,. c o 112, Strand, in th e P rec i nc t o f th e Savoi • In -- of 51'..Ittlesex, Tocsday, April 27, 1858. t E 13 A al E