The Sun. — London, England, 1858-06-26 00:00:00

even in the house itself. (Hear.) He wished not, how ever, to cenfino the question to themselves, though he was glad that it had come home to them , as but for that the public at large would perhaps never have been relieved, a t he now hoped they would be as s p eedil y as possible , from a nuisance which bad poisoned the air of the metre- Fells, and which, if continued a few weeks, perhaps even a few days, longer, might , with the present high temperature, produce a pestilence. He would now briefly refer to two or three cases which he had found in the public papers of the previous day. In the first [dace he learnt that Mr. Gurney, who bad charge of the ven tilation of the houses, had addressed to the Speaker a letter, in which he said, "That he can be no longer re sponsible for the health of the house ; that the stench has made most rapid advance within two days ; that up to Thursday be got fresh air draughts from the Star Chamber Court ; but that when night came the poisonous enemy took possession of the court, and so beat them outright." In the Queen's Bench report, he found the following :—" Lord Campbell said, if he were assured that the state of the atmosphere was such as to be darn gerous to the lives of those attending court he would ad jearn that court. Was there a medical man present ? eVIr. J. Bredell was sworn that he was compelled to leave the court three times in consequence of the bad smells ; lie gave it as his opinion that it was dangerous to health and to those attending. It would produce malaria and typhus. His lorc'ship said, in discharge cf his duty he - would adjourn the court. The jury said the smell wag very offensive in the passages, but net so b:ed in court." in the Court of Exchequer, the Lord Chief Baron, ad dressing the jury, said—" I will be as brief as possible in my remarks, for this reason, that the river at low tide has become so offensive, as many of you doubtless know, that it becomes all who can to get away from its banks as soon as possible. A juror—l went home very ill from it the first day of this trial, my lord. The Lord Chief Baron—l am sorry to hear it, but many have like wise suffered. The stench from the river is most offen• wive, and I think it right to take public notice of this, that in trying this case we are really sitting in the midst of a stinking nuisance." Again, there was an account of a woman who attempted to commit suicide, and who was nearly killed by the offensive rature of the water which entered her stomach. A waterman having diet sear the Tower, a jury which sat upon the body declared that he died from the effects of the effluvia of the Thames. An engineer was taken to St. Thomas's Hospital in consequence of attack arising from the same cause, The bad smell extended ail the way from Chelsea to Greenwich. He had himself taken several trips in steam ers for the purpose of testing the effect produced, and in many parts of the river he had great difficulty in stand ing on deck. The following was from a report issued last week by the medical officer of the Dreadnought :—" The water of the Thames stinks most abominably. I cannot but think that the foul air has a deleterious effect gene. rally on the health of the patients of this hospital, and I kros that it has bed something to do with the inducing of fever in two cases on the oriop deck, the portals of which are only a tew feet above the surface of the water. Several men on board, myself among the number, have suffered slightly from diarrheet.” Ho had heard that along the banks of the river, and more particularly on the Lambeth side, many workmen employed there were suffering from diarrheee, and that some of them bad been obliged to leave their work in consequence. They were all aware that in cases of offensive effluvia it was not im mediately that cholera, or fever, or other fearful calami ties visited seciej, but that it was after a certain time when the frame got enfeebled and the blood was impove rished, that such esils appeared, and he feared that if this nuisance went on unchecked the nostrep , 1 s would suffer as it had not done since the time of the plague. (Hear.) He had no wish to exaggerate; all he desired was to bring home to her _Majesty's ministers, who were the guardians of the public health, a question whice affected not only the lie,htermen and workmen generally in the vicinity of the Thames, but even Vie Sovereign in her palace. They had expended thousands of pounds on the piece of water extending from the Horse Guerds to Buckingham Palace, but of what advantage woul i that exoenditure be if the air along the banks were suffered to be pestilental ? As regsrdtd the remedy for this nuisance, they were at present subject to the ev le of a double government, worse even than that of India. This double government bad, in fact, brotigh ever] - thing to a dead lock. On the one side they had the Metropolitan Mani of Works with its engineers and staff ; on the other side they had the Ceief Commis sioner of Works with his engineers and advisers. Two proeoseiens had already been sub nittecl by the Metropolitan Board of Works to the Chief Cemmissioner f Works and rejected ; a third proposition had been submhted by the Istatet to the former, and the c msi deration of it was, they were tell, put off hid next Octo ber. They had now arrived at a point at which some thing must he done, and in his opinion the only way of dealing with the matter satisfactorily to the public was • to place the resp ersibility where it ought to be, on the ehoelders of the Government-, more particularly of the /minister who had the special charge of that department. Let that minister move a resolution f , r the appointmeLt of a commission—a pail commission, if the house pleased —to carry out so much of the drainage of the metro polis as related to the main sewerage and the banks of the Thames, and let then have full power to do every thing that was requisite to preserve the health of the people. He wished to add a few words with regard to the V ctoria sewer, for the state e.f which blame ap peared to him to attach either to the present or the late Commissioner of Works. The construction of the Vic toria sewer was begun in 1849 or 1850. The original cost was about 12,000/. ; but the concrete and brick work were so bad that they soon had to be renewed at a cost of 16,0001. In the ye-er 1655 the expenditure on that sewer was 60.0001, and since that time, it ha I pro bably cost 60,0001. more. For some tame the outlet at Percy's NV hal f was ()locked up. After the filth had been accumulating for months, the sewer was opened, and he was told that it was the accumulated filth which was thus senth forth that more immediately affected the house of parliament, and peisone 1 the atutesphere in . their vicinity. Having thus shadowed forth the re medy which he propose 1 for this ev:l, he would con elude by putting to the noble lord the ChM Com missioner of the B , ard of Works the fell , rwine ques tions :—" Whe• her it was true that the Victoria street sewer had had no proper outlet for many months past, owing to its defective construction and partial falling in ? Whether it be true that an outlet for all the accumulated contents of the Vie oria-street sewer had quite recently been made in cehe proximity of West minster-bridge and the houses of parliament? Hoe , large an area of London is drained into the Thames ? How much money has the Victoria-street sewer cost from its construction to the present day ? Mr. TITE wished to state a few facts in reference to this important question. Having bestowed a great deal of attention on the subject, he found that the L melon sewage which was now being daily poured into the Thames amounted to 90,000,000 gallons, white the quantity of pure water that came daily through Ted• dicgton lock was only 400,000,000 ga ll ons. Mr. Gurney stated that the sewage which was poured into the Thames flowed down to the sea, but that instead of its mixing with the sea the greater part of it returned up the river. That being the ca e, the remedying of the evil was undoubtcd'y an extrame y difficult matter. (Hear.) The other day he accompanied the Chief Com missioner ef Works down the river, their object being to ascer - aia for themselves its general conditior. Teey found that by far the most offensive part of the river was . over the mouth of the London Docks. That was an evil which was certainly not irremediable. The dock companies generally had the power of obtaining a good supply of pure water ; but they ado wed exceedingly im pure water to accumulate and flew into the Thames, and all that was requisite was that they should adopt measures for having pure water passed from time to time into their docks. The evil under which the house was now suffering was, he apprehended, owing in a great degree to the extraordinary state of the atmo sphere, which bad exhausted the upper streams, and if so there could be no immediate remedy ; they must en dure it for the present. If it were true that the sewage was returned from the sea it would be of little use to embank the Thames. In 1845 a bill was brought in for the embanking of th e Th ames from that house to Black friars-bridge at an estimated expense of 300,0001., but it was opposed by all who carried on business along the shore, and the buying up of all the trades on the barks of the Thames was out of the question. In the year 1854 two engineers were appointed to consider this question, Mr. Bazalgette and Mr. Heywood. They proposed intercepting sewers on bath sides of the Thames, to be carried on one side to Barking-creek, and on the Kent side about the same distance down. He believed this plan to be perfectly practicable and ade quate, if to it was added the obtaining some land for the purpose of deodorising the sewage at those points. The expense was very considerable, but he had been assured by Mr. Bidder that day that for 40,0001. a-year the whole sewage of this metropolis might be deodorised and returned into the river, as was done at Leicester, in so pure a state that it would not be injurious to fish. This scheme had been rejected because it was said that if the sewage was turned into the river at those points it would be carried back to London ; but if to the plan there was appended a scheme for deodorisation, that ob jection would be got rid of. This scheme of sewerage might be carried out for 2,500,0001. He could not suggest to the house that the sewage matter would pro duce one abiding, for he thought it would be found use less as manure, as it had been at Leicester. Now, what was the impracticable project ? It was proposed to take these intercepting sewers twenty miles further • down, and pour their contents out in Sea Reach. Now, if it were poured into the sea there, a very large pro• portion of it would be returned, owing to its inclination to float on the surface of the sea. He had been assured that very day that this plan would cost 10,000,0001. of money. He th oug ht it was per f ect l y easy for the First Commissioner to induce the dock companies to look into the matter so far as they were concerned—indeed, they were indictable for a nuisance; but he believed, . flora the high character of th e gen tl emen connected thos e et companies, th a t th ey wou ld readily tike mvietash put an end to th e nu i sance t h ey occasioned. , hole The cas e of cholera which had been re f erre d to occurred exactly at theipothe O—pe eastern entrance to th e L on d on Docks—where from foul m a tt er was sonits-a, thing inconceivably gensecaes. He believed very much of the evil was to be attribut pr een on theGomveetrrnompeonlit. could do this ; they Could to this. tab Board of Works to theatdnilstecptirose he had pointed out. This oc es eed e in no t ca.nri:eclithe se ver down vent a larger scheme. If they to Barking, and hand it not a B ; 7 • further, and the first expense did woull no they aould.go hat be ;brown !sway. His,ouly object in sl e ctre ,,, in : th the least, e thet, !sieving paid some attention suljent s j se a w ' s desirous to direct the public mind in th e right diremwai at -this very important momeet. lie believ e d they had seither time nor means to set about ethhanking the riper, but if they set about carrying out the plan of in tercepting sewers, to which he had referred, he believed - • • it would lead to a good result. (Hear, henr.) He wished • $o refer to another point, Mr. Gurney 144 =ado a Yalu. . ..„ , THE SUN, LONDON, able suggestion—to this effect ; that if the shores of the river, which were dry at low water, were arranged so as to present an even surface of gravel at an inclination of one in 12, that mud would not deposit on a slope so arranged. To that he added dredging two trenches in the middle of the Tham?s, on which there might be dif ferent opinions. He would urge the Government to call on the Metropolitan Board of Works to take up this question. They were now justified in thinking upon the opinion of two most eminent men that the extensive scheme of sewerage was impracticable, and if that were so they ought at once to return to the scheme which was practicable. With regard to the present mischief, it was due to atmospheric causes which they could not control. It was a great blessing that there was not now any epidemic, and he prayed God in His mercy would not visit us with one, As to the house, there was one thing hon. members might do, and that was by shorten ing their speeches, SO as to bring their labours sooner to a close. Sir J. PAXTON said the hon. member had very much anticipated what be had wished to state to the house. He was not prepared to recommend to the hcuse any particular scheme for the purpose of curing this great nuisance. All the schemes for the purification of the Thames had nearly ono common plan, as far as Barking-creek ; and the question was as to taking the sewers beyond that point. If they referred to the plan of Mr. Bazalgette, to that recommended by the Board of Works, or it they went back as far as that recommended by Mr. F. Forster, who originated this scheme of drain age, they would find that they came to almost one coal men terminus below London. What we wanted was that they should immediately set about carrying the sewage to that point, and whether it should be afterwards car ried further was a matter that 'night be discussed in the meantime. There was one plan which he believed had never had proper attention paid to it—that suggested by Mr. IVl'Lean in 1849. Mr. M‘Lean was an eminent engineer, and was the first person who suggested inter mediate intercepting sew( re ; and he, after making out his scheme, got Sir M. Peto and other eminent contrac tors to offer to carry the sewage down to Sea Reach. It could be done, according to Mr. Peto's estimate, for 1,600,0001., and Mr. Bidder, Mr. Hawkshaw, and Mr. Bazalgette reported that the previous part of the sewer could be constructed for 2,300,0001. ; so that the sewage could be taken to the German Ocean for 5,000,0001. or 6,000,0001. He thought they ought at once to embark in the work of constructing the intercepting sewer down to Barking. He did not see the use of the commission which was in existence, but he thought that the Govern ment might look into the matter, and that it could be safely trusted in their hands. Mr. ROUPELL said he intended to proceed with the motion cf which he had given notice on going into com mittee of supply, as he was averse to discussions with out practical results, as discussions on the adjournment of the house generally were. As to the Victoria sewer, hs understood that the original contract was under 12,0001., that the expense exceeded 73,0001, and that there were claims which would swell the amount to nearly 200,0001. It appeared that in this enlightened age we must have everything of great magnitude—great ships, a great Crystal Palace, and great, sewers. No doubt the evil of the Victoria sower arose from its situa- tion, and with the two enormous sewers proposed they would be subject to the swampy c nditi ,n of the soil, and the filtration of the water into them the came as the ict - iria sewer. They should coati ler these things before they embarked in any colossal scheme. He would only add a remark as to the effects on the health of those living on the borders, of the river. The teeming thousands on the borders of tno river were in a state of chronic cholera, and if we had a warm rain or the cm• tinuance of warm weather, we might fu ly expect some visitation of Providence, without which he learel the evil oevtr would he art rested. Mr. KENDALL, as chairman of the Thames Cona mittee, wished to say a few worts. He wanted to im prsss ue on the house that if the report of the committee had been ready long Bruce, nothing could be done as the law now stood. Tncre were the Board of Works, the First Commissioner, and the Conservancy to deal with. lie thought tha nothing would be dune unless the Gs vernment tock it into their own hands. If they ap pointed three na-n competent, and above suspicion, the soot k would be done. It would be useless fur the com mittee to prop ice anything unless the Government tole means to carry it into effect. This was shown by the fate of the plan proposed by the Melrepelhan Board of Works, aed submitted to the First Csuonissiener. It was quite clear fro-n the evidence which had been laid before the committee that no hon. member had exag gerattd the evil. Mr. MANGLES thought that after all it was a money question ; it was a question whether the expenses shoulA be wholly thrown on tho metropolis or shout I be in part borne by the Imperial Government. He thonght it very foolish to hand over such a work as this to cosh a body as the Board of Works without means and ap pliances. Ike thought it was not the business cf the metropolis alone to execute this great work. (Haar.) It was not only the people of Laudon who were cos cc nod, but the sovereign and the legislature, and the liw courts of the kireAotio which were located in the nel,;hbou hood. It was a shuffle to try to pu., the whole ex_ wise upon the parishes uf L indon. It was said that it would take a long time, but they would never finkh it if they did not begin it. Let the Government take the ma ter up this session, and he was sure that under the influence of the nuisance the house would rapidly pass any necessary bill, and if they succeeded they would psifarin a work which would exceed that per formed by Hercules. Lord J. MANNERS wished to observe firs', that he bud ao cot neetioa with the mananemerit of the Victoria sewer, or any other sewer, and there lire he had been obliged to apply to the Chew:elan of the Metropolitan B of Works f- r informatien on the subject. He bad received the following enewer :--" Sir,—Adverting to the contents of your letter of the 24',h lost., I am directed by the Chairman cf the Metropolitan Board of Works to apprise you, for the iiiformation of the First Commissioner of tier Majesty's Works, that the answers to the quevions referred to in th it c.iminunication are as fo:low :-1 Too outlet cf the Victoria street sower has for some years past been fr qeently, and now is, 'sneer repair, and during the present and all periods of repair it has not had a proper outlet for the discharge of its sewage. The sewer has been under repair for the last three months. 2. An outlet has not been recently made fur ad the accumulated contents of the Victoria• street sewer in close proximity to Westminster-bridge. Ail the sewage flowing into that portion of the Vic•oria street sewer which is above Westminster-bridge Las for the la t three months eeen dire:del into that -Id sewer as ou all previous occasions cf repair to the Victena sireet outlet. The Westminster-bridge sewer ont'et its extended to low water, and trapped at itt mouth, and it is believed to be connected whh Mr. Gurney's system of sewer ventilation. 3. The area drained into the Vic toria-street sewer is about one-third of a tquare mile. 4. The amount expended on the same sewer up to May last was 73,3211. 16'. 6.1. I beg to aid, by direr im of the chairman a quantity of lime will be immediately ap plied at the outlet of the Bridge-street sever, fur the purpose of deodorising the sewage." He mi g ht, there tore, ray, that all etepe that could immediately be t %lien were now being taken in reference to this sewer, As to the many qu aliens which had been raised, it was im , possible for him to deal with them at once, in anything like a satisfactory manner. Treel were of course all agreed as to the evil and its sources, and every hon. gentleman expressed his earnest desire that something should be done. But beyond these two !elementary positions, he believed they had not ad vanced so as to throw any great light on what was to be done immediately. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member who nnninenasd this discussion seeme,i anxious to threw the whole responsibility on the Go vernment—(hear)—which the Government entirely re pudiated, for the law gave them no rower over the matter. The house would alloy him to refer to how the present law originated. It was thought that the various communities of the metropolis should be pieced in a po sition in which it might satisfactorily deal with all mu nicipal and local questioos. An act was passed to give effect to this opinion about three years ago, and in that act direct reference was made to the question of the sewage of London. The house must recollect that the Metropolitan Board of Works was established to carry out the decision of the Legislature. He wished to Oro w blame on no one, for he believed tbat all parties had acted to the best of their judgment, and that they had net been able to arrive at a conclusion in consequence of the difficulties of the question. The Metropolitan Board had not refused to consider any plan submitted to them by the late or the present Government. Q-eite the rever,e, for this very day the Metropolitan Board of Works had been sitting for the express purpose of seeing whether they could not devise some plan fur arresting these evils. Nii plan could be submitted by the Govern , mint to the Metropolitan Board of Works. The hon. member for Bath (Mr. Tate) had gone into a clear avose of committee s hs i t, a s views. udbitettshaeel allowed T oawn honour The h ttho etceha(yail situ r tt m hyh aaaotdnf while ih t el h ed e e dhethf committee otuhned on which Government ah, I differing so wid e l y as to the sources of the evil work t tahna o dr f but i hbei still t n o v o t h l v e e dre suchm e d y e , n and o w u when x p h e e f d o i u t u n d r e that those remedies widely as responsible for thneaeuxrparlydiatuhraew—ed(hneaard) the metropolitan di s t r i cts endeavour to repudiate being --e-a desire v t e h r n t : k e e n te past or present, on themselves an expenditure the extent of which no one knew, and the results of which were very dubious. It did not become him hastily to say that the Government would take on themselves the responsibility of spending millions cf money, and of settling this great question. What he could tell hon, gentlemen was this, that the question was occupying the meet serious attention of the Government, and that they would do their best be fore the session closed to introduce, if they Lurid it to be necessary, a measure which would confer sufficient power on the Metropolitan Board of Works, or on any other department existing or to be created, for the satis factory conclusion of this question. (Cheers.) He would not go into details on the great question how far the sewage should be carried, cr into the question of the embankmeut of the Thames. On the one hand there was the Metropolitan Board of Works, aided by the experi ence they had acquired, steadily endeavouring to find a proper remedy ; on the other hand, the Government was prepared to act cordially with them, and to submit to the consideration of Parliament some I cheme for the amendment of the existing lie knew he ha I ex pressed very insufficiently the views a hich he should be prepared tot xplain at greater lcegth on a future coca • iiin. He would content himself with saying that so far at his knowledge went the statement which he had eeard front the hoe, member for Bath (Mr. Tile) of the perf-ct • uccess of the deodorising system at Leicsster was per feetly borne nut. He bad a letter from a leading phy elician th a t nothing ennld be more suc cese f n l th an th e ee r otrising sy s t em so f or ae sanitary matters wire con• ce d li e hoped that the house would not think that the Government were neglecliug th e i r d u t y if th e y did take the matter out of the hands of the proper consti ted authorities, and he asaure . 4 . 01_9E4 that the C". vernuaent would give every assistance to the proper , authrrities, and would do what they could to Fubstitule a more perfect machinery, endowed with more ample powers of purikcation of the Thames. Mr. BRADY said he had known the Thames for thirty years, but had never known it so offensive as at present. Unless something were done, a second plague of London might be expected. He thought the house was responsible for any calamities which might arise. He trusted that the matter would be considered in a manner which would show to the people cf London that their lives were cared for. He knew families were flying from London ; and when he had ridden over NV , stminster•bridge he found that many persons, as \ they approached the bridge, put handkerchiefs to their noses and used t. bottles. Mr. BENTINCK must enter his protest against the doctrine that had been laid down by the hon. member fur Guildford (Mr. Mangles.) He agreed it was a money question, and all he wanted was to protest against the money being taken cut of the wrong pocket. First they were asked for money for a park fur the metropolis, and next a: bridge was constructed, and they were asked to forego the security of the tolls; and then, when there cams the question of the sewers, it was immediately stated that this was an imperial question, ant that the whole country was bound to contribute. Tne inhabitants of a town ought to pay for their own sewerage. It was monstrous that the richest city in the world should al ways try to relieve itself of its just obligations. What would be said if bon. members asked for public money for the purposes of towns a hundred miles off ? If the Thames were not purified, London would be deserted, and the inhabitants would sustain a greater loss than by paying for the sewers. Mr. AYRTON prot?sted against the imputation which bad been made that metropolitan members, in deference to their constituents, asked for public money for local purposes. The difficulty did not lie in the demands of the metropolis, but in the fact that the metropolis had always been a bugbear in the eyes of the Executive . Government, and bad been refu.ed municipal privileges, but municipal intelligence should go far to count.ract the want of intelligence on the part of the executive. (Laughter.) It was only ten years since a whig prime minister had declared that it would be impossible to grant municipal institutions to the metropolis, because the population was so enormous. It was ant three years since any approach to municipal institutions had been given, and did they suppose that the Wunders of centuries were to be remedied in a mo ment ? Had the right hon. gentleman below him been able to carry his measure in its integrity, practical measures would have been taken ere now, but the municipal body had been counteracted by a commission, and the result bad been to cover the whol-t affair with ahsurdity and ridicule. He should astound the house by acquainting it with what this commission proposed to do. It proposed to provide at once what might be necessary forty years hence, thus quadrupling the ex pense, and not only to carry away the sewage of the metropolis, but to make provision for ten times the quantity, besides all the rainfall of the surrounding dis trict.. If the mat ter was left to the municipality they would make the Thames, not certainly pure as a _ _ tain rivulet, but healthy and fit f )r all the purposes to which it was at present applied. The only way to remedy the present state cf things would be to give the metropolis municipal institutions the same as every other town, and then it would deal with Municipal ques tions r/ith practical wisdom and sagacity. Sir B. HALL wished to Ray a few words in conse (pence of what had fallen from the h. n. member who had just spoken, who hal, however, misrepresented the case. As soon as the Metropolitan Board presented him (Sir B. Had) with a plan which had an outfall, he put it into the hands of three of the most eminent enzineers in England, and further, he asked them it they did not approve of it, to suggest some other plan themselves. They did propose a plan, which he sent to the Metro peleae Board of Works, and the latter placed it in the hands of their own engineer. Ad he had to re gret was that the Bard of Works, when they re ceived the report of their own engineer, did not take it in hand at once, but postponed is consideration until October next. Oa one point he agreed with the hoe member for the Tower Haenlete, and that was that the rnetropols was placed in a peculiar difficulty. In all other to eecs in England in Europe there was a municipality fhr the whole of the city; but the London municipality extended over a very small area, and regulated the affairs of but 129,000 out ef two and a halt mdlione of people. (Hear, hear.) 0 her municipalities cattle' levy money for the improvement of the whole city; but in London the power of levy ranged over a very small portion of the metrepol a, and was expended within a very small area. This was a matter which required the consideration of Parliament. (tlear.) After what had passed on the pre vious dav in that house respecting the Corporation Re form B 11, it was quit - ) impossible it could pass during the present session,, and therefore there would be time for its coneideratiou. He should refrain from further ohservatiou, because the Chief Commissioner ef Works had indicated the wisest course, which was to put him self in communication with the Board of Works, and ceo whether, in order that the main drainage should be carried out, it would be necessary to alter the law. Should he think it advisable to alter the law be (Sir B. Hall) wouid advise him te look at the 141st section of the bill, which the coils lore's party opposed, and which he (Sir B. Hal) was in consequence obliged to withdraw. Toe object of that clause was to enable the Treasury to advance money on the security of the ro.'el, and in consequence of its withdrawal it was impossible to proceed with any works. Should there be say new legidatiun he would strongly advise the re-insertion of this clan , e. (Hear.) If any scheme, such as that put ferward by the hoc. member for Bath, should be consi dered, a now bill would be necessary, because ou! fall was already fixed, not only outside the metropolis, bat was fixed so low down, iu deference to the wishes of the house, as to preclude the possibility of the waters ever cemieg beck. He ventured to throw out these stag gefstioes in case the noble lord should have to re-intro duce the matter to Parliament. Tae CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER -My noble friend the President of the Board of Works has dealt with this creation in so candid and clear a manner that it is really unnecessary fur me to touch it at any length. An hen. gentleman, I think, has charged the Government with the responsibility of this matter. It is unnecessary for me to say that no legal responsibility can devolve on the Government in respect to it ; but I ad-nit that a moral responsibility lies upon us to do all in our power to prevent public disaster, and I am cure no set t f men in our position would for a moment with to avoid that responsibility. For the last three or four days our uerliett and cene tent attention has been given to the out ject, and I trust the result ef that attention will be fer the public advantage. The commissions and committe es on this question leave, no doubt, in many respects done their duty well, but the time has came when it is absolutely necessary that action shonll cent ;fleece, (Cheers.) I very much agree with the bon. gentleman the member fur the Tower Hamlets in the ob creation which he made as to the great delay that had taken place in the establishment of what I may call this new Board in this great metropolis. But, a though there is a great deal of truth in his observations, it is also impossible to deny that what has occurred has been the natural consequence of what probably could not have been prevented—the jealousy which always exis - s when new institutions; are rising by the side of ancient ones. We must nut forget all that, and we must remember that under the pressure and consciousness of these cir -1 curostances Parliament a few years ago determined to eetablish a great corporation—l mean the Metropolitan I Beard, to which so much reference has been made. But, although we have invested it with great powers, unfore tunately this great corporation, which has to guard the intercli and regulate the management of probably a hundred times more people and property than are en trusted to the guardianship of the corporation cf the city of London, has an unlimited power of rating, which has been proved to be nothing better than a theoretical idea. (Hear.) It cannot carry that power into effect. (Hear, bear.) It has experienced in its local direct taxa tion the same obstacles which we ereeerience with regard to imperial direct taxation. I, therefore, think that the time has come when, having thrown upon ttis cor poration so great a responsibility, we should consider whether we ought not to furnish it with those means which are adequate to the due fulfilment of its great dutie-. (Hear.) Now I believe that it is in want of funds. It is to that fact, and not to any system of don •le government, as has been suggested, that the inefficiency of the Metropolitan Board of Works is to be attributed. I think that Parliament would act prudently in provid ing that body with sufficient means for the adequate ful filment of its duties. In the present situation of affairs there are two duties which her Majesty's Government have to fulfil—one towards this house, and one, of course, towards the population of this metropolis gene rehy. With regard to their dory to this house, I cer tainly am perfectly prepared, on the part of her Majes ty's Government, to say that there shall be no lack of energy and no want of zeal on our part to bring the busi ness of this house to a coeclueion as soon as we can con sistently with our public duty. (Hear.) We shall not hesitate to make a sacrifice of many measures—(laugh ter)—which, though important, may, if it should be ne ce=sary to make that sacrifice, be regarded as of only secondary importauce. But I trust that the house will respond to this desire on our part, and assist us as much as possible—(cheers)—by not entering upon unnecessary discussions. There are, however, certaio measures which I think it is absolutely necessary should be carried, and I trust that the house will assist us in carrying them. But it is not our desire that they should not undergo adequate discussion, for which opportunity will be given. These measures I trust the house will, with all their eaergy, assist us in carrying. With regard to the com munity our responsibili'y will not cease with the ternei nagion ef the session ; and I can only again repeat that there shall be on the part of her Majesty's Govern ment no want of energy in their endeavonrs to make those arrangements which are adequate to the occasion, or in the exercise of the powers they possess for preserving the public health. (Hear, hear.) And if we find it necessary to appeal to Parliament before it is prorogued for powers to carry the necessary operations into effect we will not hesitate to appeal to Parliament with confidence for such powers. (Cheers.) THE TENANT RIGHT QUESTION. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, before I sit down I hope I may be permitted to refer to a que aka which wit - 4 addressed to me on a subject of.a very different character, and to which I should not , fetl it necessary unthr those circumstances to reply; but I th)ught it alight be deemed a want of courtesy if I were to give no answer to the hon. gentleman. It appears that the hon. gentleman has discovered that a cousidttahle part of the data on which his inquiry ii founded is in accurate. I think, the house will feel that there is nothing more inconvenient than to found an inquiry upon escon4-hanclinforLuntivai of a conversation which ',SATURDAY EVENING,' JUNE 26, has taken place beyond the walls of the house. I Flail , not touch in detail upon those allusions which are con tained in the inquiry-et the hen. gentleman, because I understand he himself now admits that ho has discovered that they are founded on incorrect information. [Mr. P. O'Brien—lt is only the first cart of my notice that is incorrect.] The first part is incorrect, and the other is not very accurate. (Laughter.) Now, with regard to the intention of the Government on the subject to which the hon. gentleman referred—namely, that of landlord and tenant in Ireland, I may say this, that it is a great many years - some five or six—since that question was introduced into the discus,ions of this house, and it has been frequently, and almost constantly, debated since its introduction. I think and hope that all of us —gentlemen on both sides of the house—have profited by those frequent diseu , sions. It certainly is the inten tion of her Majesty's Government during the recess to give their most earnest consideration to that question. (Cheers.) My right honourable friend the Attorney- General has already directed his attention to it, and I shall be happy if he may he able at the reassembling of Parliarneet to introduce a measure upon the ques tion of landlord and tenant in Ireland which may prove a eati-factory and conclusive settlement of the question. (C'heere.) Mr. MAGUIRE defended himself against the obser vations of the hon. member for the King's County. He (Mr. Maguire) bad been before the house tines 1852, and he thought he might say that he had acted through out the part of an independent member. It was net owing t) his vote that the present Government was in power. He had voted for the noble lord the member for Tiverton, against the motion of the right hon. mem ber for Ashton, but the present Government being in office, he conceived it only right, as an Irish member, and as an independent member, that he should give them fair play. (Ministerial cheers , ) He believed that, so they had done more for the cause been done by their predecessors in f o a f r p a r s og t r h e e s y s h th e a d n g b o a n d e, ten years, and therefore he had not pined in any of the miserable faction squabbles with which they had been assailed. With respect to the tenant right question, he was not going to pin himself to a measure which was a mockery and a sham. It was not his fault if the tenant right queetlon was not carried. It was not he who bad sold a party and exposed a cause to ridicule. He had introduced a bill containing a retrospective clause, and it had been defeated by a majority of three to ono. Thiaking, then, that the independent Irish party had some claim upon the Government as having given them fair play, and not being in search of some petty lordship of the Treasury,"such as was thrown to minor politicians —(a laugh)—wanting nothing for himself but something for his country, he and the gentlemen with whom he acted went to the pre:ent Government to see whether a settlement , f the question could not be procured. They did not ask for a retrospective clause, but they asked for some measure which might be satisfactory to the country. As to his being a newspaper proprietor, he admitted the fact, and, he was not ashamed of it, and to' whatever he wrote in his paper he attached his name, so that he was al ways responsible, Hear, hear.) He was not ono of those liberals who stabbed in the dark and slandered in anonymous articles. The reason he had mit asked the hon. member for the Queen's county was that the present Government were scarcely warm in their seats when the hon. member on the part of ell Ire land made a tremendous attack. He (Mr. Magu re) ad mitted that the hon, member hal not quite destroyed teem, but he bad establi-hed his own character for poli tical eccentricity. He treatsd all the hon. member's in sinuations as be would a mere puff of the Thames nuis ance. (A. laugh.) He trusted that right hon. gentlemen opposite would be able to in reduce to Parliament a ea tisfactery solution of the tenant-right question. Mr. O'BRIEN (much excited) would tell the hon. mem ber for Dungarvon, asheha.d told him in another place— (Order.) The hon. member insinuated that he hal sent anonymous contributions to a newspaper. Mr. - .NIA Gum E --No, no. L'lr. O'BRIEN—Then do you withdraw everything? The SPEAKER—The question is, that this house, on its r i s i ng , adjourn to Monday next. (Cheeis and laughter.) Mr. O'Brien here suddenly left the house, and the mo tion was agreed to. GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (No. 3) BILL. Oa the order of the day for going into committee oa this bill, Mr. SLANEY proceeded to make some observations on the past and present government of India. The East India Company h: d, during the 60 years they had held rule in India, confined their attention to raising revenue, without caring for the welfare of the people, and the consequence was that they were worse paid and more oppr eased than any other people perhaps on the face on the earth. He agreed with much that had been said by the hon. member for Birmingham, and he trusted, now that the government of India was about to be transferred from the East India Company to the Crown, the moral and physical elevation of the people of India would be the first object of the go verning power. The house then went into committee on the bill. Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to without comment. On c]ause 3, Sir H. WILLOUGHBY cmaplained of the power this clause would place in the hands of the Secretary of State. If he understood the clause correctly it placed the whole power of dealing with the Indian revenue in the hands of the Secretary of State, and that without check or control. In fact, it paced in his hands all the powers in respect to finance which were now exercise t by the Court of Direc tors under the check of the Board of Control and the Court of Proprietors. He wanted to know whether that was in tended, and whether there would be any objection to in sert the word " and council" after `" secretary of st.te?" Ur. C. FORTESCUS would move to inset the words " and council of India" after the words Secretary of Stagg. In this respect ho thought the bill of the late Government was much better than the present one. If they were to have a council at all, it ought to be a reality, and it should tako a vital and active part in the whole transaction of India business—not to consider with the Secretary of State, but to consider and advise with him on all matters of importance, he being responsible for either, acting upon ex- jecti ug their advice. He did not agree with the consti tution of the council as proposed by the bill now under consideration. Sir J. GRAHAM remarked that as the bill had only been real a second time last night, and as the noble lord (Stanley) then intimated that he proposed to introduce many important alterations, it would perhaps have been more convenient if they had only gone into committee pro forma, in order that theso'alterations might be inserted be fore they were called upon to discuss these clauses, This was an important clause. It transferred to the minister, and the minister only, all the power now exercised by the President of the Board of Cent; 01, and al the powers exercised by the Court of Directors. In agreeing to that they ()ugh t to know un ler what limits those powers were to be exercised. At present the President of the Board of Control had not the power to expend a single shilling of the revenues of India in Eugland. He could not grant a pension or order any ex peuditure to be iucurredhere without the concurrence of the Court of Directors ; and it was only through the medium of the secrt committee that it could order any exp.n,liture in India. But this clause gave to the minister unlimited powers of ordering any amount of expenditure is India without the concurrence of any member of his council, and it conferred on him power to grant pensions in this counti y, or to order any expenditure athome without any limitation or check whatsoever. Then what were the limits to this power conferred in other parts of the bill? As far as he could discover there were no limits in regard to exlaendi ture unless it were in clause SS, which was somewhat equi vocally worded, but which did not appear to him to contain any sufficient restraint. (Hear.) with regard to patronage. This clause placed unlimited powers of patron age in the hands of the minister. All the appointments, save the first nomination to commissions and the first no mination to clerkships, were to rest with the minister. Those were the only limitations (Hear.) In the twelfth clause of the bill of the noble lord opposite (Lord Palmer ston) there was a limit imposed. It was there provided that no expenditure should be incurred in England without the concurrence of at least four members of the council—that was one-half of the whole body, as the nob!e lord proposed the constitution of the council. The noble lord (Stanley) glanced, he thought, in his speech of the previous evening at some limitation to the power of the minister in regard to expenditure as checked by the existing regulations, and he also glanced at the provisions of the bill of the noble lord the member for Tiverton to which he (Sir J. Graham) had referred ; but the noble lord, he believed, thought the limit suggested in that provision inexpedient ; that it was better there should be no limitation, and that the Indian Minister should have unlimited power, subject only to the moral control of his responsibility to the House of Commons. Now he (Sir J. Graham) thought that check of the control of the House of Commons over ac counts rendered at a very long date after the expen diture had been incurred, was not so efficient as the control proposed by the noble lord the member for Ti verton—(hear, hear)—and he should be glad to hear, be fore they went furtfier with the bill, what were the checks the noble lord (Stanley) proposed to create, first, with re gard to the matter of expenditure in India, next, with regard to expenditure at home, in lieu of the concurrence of a considerable portion of the Board of Directors, with out which the Board of Control hal no such powers of expenditure ; he also wished to know what wore the checks the noble lord proposed to introduce with regard to patron ages other than those to which he had referred. (Hear.) Mr. ROEBUCK observed that the council, as proposed by this bill, was constituted for life ; whereas the council proposed in the bill by the noble lord (Pelinerston) was constituted for a limited period. That made all the dif ference ; and practically, if they gave the power to such a council, they would give it to an irresponsible body. Sir J. GRAHAM reminded the hon. and learned gentleman that they were now discussing the 3rd clause, which conveyed the power as it appeared to him (Sir J. Graham) without limit ; and it would be inexpedient, in considering that, to enter into the question of the con stitution of the council. Colonel SYKES explained that at present the Presi dent of the Beard of Control had no power to expend a shilling in England, but he might expend any amount he pleased through the secret committee, as had been done in one case, where 120,0001. had been expended in new war steamers. The Court of Directors could ex pend no money at home without the consent of the Board of Control ; and only then to the extent of 5001. in individual grants, or pensions not exoeeding 2001. a-year in any case. For any grant or pension of a larger amount they must have the consent of the Court of Proprietors, and that consent must be confirmed at a subsequent meeting. Sir E. PERRY stated that the limit imposed upon the Court of Directors in the case of grants was 6001. He agreed that there should be some such checks over the expenditure as now existed, and with that view he proposed that no grant beyond 600/ , or pension exceed ing 200 1 , a year, should be granted by the Secretary of State without the sanction of the House of Commons. (Hear.) Mr. AYRTON suggested that the only constitutional check over the expenditure was to iasist upon an annual appropriation act, as was the case with the public expen diture in this country. Lord STANLEY stated that the words "or as herein oe this clause the house would not be p revented front „ e nacting any further checks it might thin k nacos: Day. The bill, otherwise r w t mightletL" would hereafterld includeintroduced, any check now s o the by first thing they had to do was to decide upon the theory but lt S i t f a State and principle of their legislation. The hon. gentleman opposite proposed to add the words " a nd council ," that way,and t t h o 6 divide council.the T hpaotw waserb o a t w f c l e i i r l the proposition Secretary were accepted, it entirely did away with the whole pro fessed object of the noble lord'o (Lord Faammtoll'o) bill ; 185 g. because the principle that be desired to carry out was that of undivided responsibility. If they aihered to, the prin ciple of undivided responsibility they must have undivided authority. The council proposed by the noble lord was ono of nominees—the council proposed by the present, bill was ono that was to hold office for life. To impose such a check as was proposed would be to impose a double re sponsibility on the Minister—first, to his council, and, secondly, to Parliament. He felt the necessity for making the responsibility of the Minister actual, but if the house acted on the principle laid down during the present sessi,n they must m tke that a responsibility to Parliament. He had been asked if the clause did not give the Minister authority over the patronage of India as well as over the expenditure ? It would be a sufficient answer to point to clauses 31 and 34, which provided for the disposal of the patronage. What he would press on the committee was this, that any restraint they wished to impose on the Minister was covered by the words in the clause : but by introducing the words "and council," you introduced a divided authority, andtook from the Minister more power than you intended, and you would introduce that double responsibility which it had bsen the universal wish to avoid. Mr. V. SMlT.Elagreed that this clause must be considered in connection with others in the bill; although the right hon. 13..ronet (Sir J. Gra.hana) was Trite right in saying, that if the clause stood alone it would give unlitnitel power to the Secretary for India. With regard to patron age the objection hail been answered, but as regarded ex penditure there was no provision. He considered that the present council was more obstructive than that proposed by his noble friend (Lord Palmerston). He was sure that the committee would think that there must be some check ip this respect on the Minister for India, for if not he would posses the most enormous power ever given to any minister, and with regard to expenditure he could do as be pleased. The only check the noble lord proposed was that the accounts should be laid before Parliament ; but this was wholly illusory. He had expressed that opinion, last night, and he should repeat it on every occasion. The hon. and learned member for Devonport said he should propose that a vote should be taken in Parliament when a pension above a certain amount was to be granted. But this was also illusory. There was no such action in mem bers of Parliament . with regard to matters of that •kind re lating to India as was created by the influence of consti tuencies in this country. The hon. member for the Tower Hamlets proposed that there should be an Appropriation Act for India, but he (Mr. V. Smith) thought such a bill would share the fate of the Indian budget, and it would not in the mouth of August excite much attention, or cause payments to 133 looked into which ought to have been made by the Minister. Either by means of the council or other wise there must be some check on the Minister with regard to expenditure, and he would suggest to the noble lord the creation of some check on a minister invested with such extraordinary powers. Sir F. BARING begged to add his request to the noble lord, that he would consider the power which he was about to grant to the minister with regard to the finances of Eldia. He admitted that in considering the question of the go vernment of India they must put aside their notions of freedom, and proceed as if they were enacting an arbitrary measure. But there must be some security for expendi ture. There was no security that the council would act as a chock, for the whole power of the President of the Board ' of Control was handed over to the Minister for India with out even the intervention of the secret committee, and he might order any expenditure he chose. Was that a power to give to any man ? He would ask if the Minister was to have the power of raising loans without even the know ledge of the council? Might it not be enacted that no order for the payment of money should he given without , its going through the council and being known to them ? That might act as a check. As to the check proposed, of laying the accounts before Parliament, that would not be of the I( ast use. Lord STANLEY said that the right hon. gentleman had evidently not read the whole bill; for, when he put his question with regard to tho power of raising loans, which he supposed was vested in the Minister, he had pot looked at clause 45, by which the powers of borrowing, now pro posed by the East India Company, was transferred to the council to be exercised under the direction of the Secretary of State ; so that 'there could lea no loan without their knowledge. By the 39th clause it was provided that all moneys to be paid out by drafts or orders were to ba signed by three members of the council. Sir H. RA.WLINS.ON said that the 39th clause did give a power over expenditure to the council, and the power of the Secretary of State remainedas it was. This appeared to him to be an efficient control. Sir F. BARING'. said he was aware of the clause in question, but it was so inconsistent with the argument of the uoblo lord with regard to the responsibility of the Minister, that he thought it provided for a mere formal signature, just as three Lords of the Treasury signed cer tain warrants. If he was to understand that the members of council did not merely sign, but had placed on them the responsibility of their signature, he had a got a great deal of that he was anxious to obtain. Sir G. C. LEWIS said he understood that the effect of the 39th clause was, that when the Secretary of State by his authority ordered money to be paid out of the home Treasury, and it was pail by draft, it was signed by three members of tho council; but the Secretary of State had the power to order money to be paid. Sir C. WOOD agreed with his right hon. friend as to the effect of the clause. It did give the council some power, so far as home expenditure was concerned. But there wags nothing that he saw is the clause which rendered the con sent of the council necessary to any order for payment out of the home Treasury. Tnere ought to be words in the clause which made something more necessary for payment out of the Treasury than the order of the Secretary of State. The clause, however, went only to home expendi ture, whereas there was a large amount of expenditure which was not provided for—namely, the expenditure in Doti', itself. Mr. C. FORTE3CUE said that if money was to be voted by the council, what was the meaning of the 23d clause, which provided, that in case of any difference of opinion in the council, the determination of the Secretary of State sheuld be tinsl. If the Secretary of State had not the power to order the payment of money, that exception ough to be included in the claim. The SOLICIUOR-GENER.A.L said that it was what pre.nature to discuss clause 39, which was intended to impose checks un the powers given by the clause then under discussion. When they came to that clause they would decide on the extent to which these checks were to go. If he were to give en opinion with regard to clause 39, he should say that the money to bo spent was to be de termined by the Secretary of State and the council in the same manner as they determined any other matter. Rolla that was to be dens was to be provided for hereafter, and he thought it would be better to defer the discussion till theY came to the clauses in question. Col. SYKES said that clause 39 referred to money re mitted from India, but clause 3 put the whole of the re venues of India at the disposal of the minister. Sir C. WOOD would be contended to take the discussion on this point on the sub iequent clauses. But the nob!e lord bad not stated that those clauses were sufficient for the purp se, and he thought he could see that they were not. He was satisfied to let this clause pass after what had been said. Sir J. GRAHAM said that if there had been any dis cussion on clause 3, the blame rested with him, for it ap peared to him that it transferred all 'sewers relating to ex pen'liture, and entrusted all the patronage to the Minister for India. The words or otherwise provided" had out escaped him, and ho had asked what were the enactments in the bill which restricted those powers ? The noble lord referred to clause 39. It was not desirable to carry the discussion on that clause any further then, but as at pre sent advised, he did not think the checks in it were satli cLut. He diclenot find in the bill any such restraint as tho secret committee, which was an efficient restraint. The Secretary of India had larger powers than the Presi dent of the Beard of Control now had over expenditure, which he could exercise without the knowledge of the council or of Parliament, except that at a distant period accounts be rendered to Parliament. Then with respect to patronage the noble lord referred to clauses 31 and 34. With regard to military patronage there was a limit placed to the power of the Minister, but he did not find thatthere was any limit with regard to civil patronage. That w a s vested to the Minister alone. He thought some efficient restraint ought to be imposed upon the expenditure. Mr. GREGSON trusted that the clause would be so • modified as to impose a proper check upon the Secretary of State. Sir H. RAWLINSON said that the President of the Board of Control, had now no power of ordering any ex penditure of money,, but he might require the Court of • Directors to do so. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that, under the bill, no communication could be sent to India by the Secretary of State without the knowledge of the Council. and that would give the restriction which the committee required. Mr. PULLER said that, according to the interpretation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the power of the Pre sident could not be exercised without the knowledge of the council, but still they would possess no control over him. On the other, if a veto was given to them, it would take out of the Secretary's hands the newer vested in him by the bill. If the council could prevent the Secretary from ordering any expenditure, they could prevent him from making any alteration of policy which would involve an increase of expenditure. Mr. V. SMIrII said, if the President of the Board of Control desired to effect any purpose he must send a letter to the Court of Directors, who had the power of remon strating, and could not be compelled to obey the direction of the President without a mandamus from a court of jus tice. It was clear that under the present bill the Secretary of State would have no greater power over the Indian re venues than that which now existed. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer had overlooked the 27th clause. Suppose a minister chose to expend half a million- on steamers in a war with China, the council would not be able to interfere in the matter. 'lt was clear that 'he power of the minister would be most arbitrary and despotic. He wished to know from the Government whether the minister would be al lowed to expend any sum ho might please without the knowledge of the council or the knowledge of Parliament. Mr. BARROW said it would be much the more conve nient course to discuss the clauses in their proper order, and if hon. members were'not satisfied with the checks imposed they ought to give notice of amendments. Mr. FORTESCUE moved the insertion of the words "in council" after the words " Secretary of State." Tho effect of that amendment would be that in all ordinaiy matters the council would, as a matter of right, have cog nisance of all matters relating to the government of India before they were finally decided upon by the Secretary of State. Sir G. LEWIS said that if the government would adopt the plan recommended by the late government they would solve the difficulty. The former bill contained a clause pro viding that no grant for any increase should be made with out the concurrence of the president and foir of the ordi nary members of the council, that being a majority. If it was the intention of the Government that no new grant or charge should be made out of the revenue of India without the consent of the majority of the council, he would suggest the insertion'of a clause defining the powers of the council, and thus removing - the difficulty which had arisen. Lord V. TEMPEST said the present clause was a mere sequitur of the provision that the Government of India should be handed over to the Crown. If the amendment should be adopted - the minister would be completely con trolled by the council. He did not see anything to delay the committee until they arrived at the 7th clauie, on which he had gifven notice of 'his intention to move an amendment.' Lord J. RUSSELL said ho could not vote for the amend ment of the hen. member for Louth (Mr. Fortescue), and hoped the Government would pay some attention to the suggestion of hisiight - lion. friend (Sir G. Lewis). Mr. MANY.I-12'S 'said that nothing•more was required with reap: t the new council than esistfd with regard to the council and Vie Gelvrnor-General cf ' Alt the official bUsiness must Jae done by the Governer-General in Council, and - hie thought the new minister ought to hear 'his council MO tae their advice. That system had acted admirably in the Indian branch of the Government, and he did not see whyit should nut do adequately well in th e English branch. gr,':C;BARIZKI ou'rporteil the ap4eo44erit. of. the 49n, member for Louth, because he believed it would be the best check against tho misuse of money and the misuse of patronage. The committee then divided. The numbers were— For the amendment 77 Against it Majority ' —ll4 On the qne3tion that clause 3 stand part of the bill, Sir C. WOOD suggested a verbal amendment of the latter part of the clause, to make it consistent with the subsequent clauses. Mr. WALPOLE gave some explanation, and the clause was then agreed to. On clause 4, Sir J. GRAHAM said that by the present law three Secretaries ~f State undone President of the Board of Con trol might sit in the House of Commons. There was there fore no objection to the new Secretary of State being em powered to sit. The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses 5 and 6. Oa clause 7, which fixes the number of the council, Lord PALMERSTON said he thought that 15 was an inconveniently large number. He did not fear that the ap pointment of tlat number of officers by the Government would affect the liberties of the country; but he believed that the numbSr would be too largo for the convenient transaction of business. There would not be that constant transmission of documents to and from India which had hitherto taken place. The voluminous correspondence had to be read; and it generally resulted in nothing being done, or being referred to the clerk of the committee. tie did not think that it would be necessary to sub-divide the council into committees of three. He suggested that they should adopt that number which Lord Stanley himself had been in favour of, 12--giving power to the Government to reduce that number afterward:. The bill seemed to have been framed on the idea that the new Government should resemble the old one as much as possible. They seemed to have had the old Court of Directors of 18 in their mind. He moved to omit "13," and insert "12." Mr. MANGLES said it was an entire mistake of the noble lord to suppose that the correspondence with India would diminish. On the contrary it was likely to increase, owing to the railways and other new public works ; and that increase would probably go on for years to come. The noble lord seemed to forget that India was a country of raw produce chiefly, and must for a long time to come draw its'supply of manufactured articles from this country. He hoped the committee would not consent to any reduc tion of the number of the council. Mr. GLADSTONE intended to support the number of 15, and would state why he preferred it to 12. The coun cil might either be s body only occasionally consulted by the Indian Minister, as his convenience dictated, and in that case the smaller number would be sufficient ; or they might be parties to the Whole Of the Indian business from its inception to its close, and such was his idea of the coun cil. (sear, hear.) The number of 15 contemplated the council being divided into committees; and Lord Stanley had stated that the business would be conducted in that way. He thought this arrangement so important that it was desirable to have provisions inserted in the bill for carrying it out; and he hoped the Government would in troduce some clauses to that effect. (Hear, hear.) Mr. D. SEYMOUR said that only 5 per cent. of the business had been' initiated or transacted by committees under the old system. There would not be the eame amount ,of.business thrown on the council with regard to railway and public works as n)w pressed on the Court of Director.. It was only the clerks who would ever read through all the papers. The committee could only look over them afterwards in a dilettante manner. He would vote for the number 12 as a nearer approximation to the number 4—( ' hear, hear," and a laugh) - which he thought the proper number. All the real business was done in India by a council which only comprised four members, and the same number .would be qui, enough for the Eng lish council. They ought not to have more men thin were required fer the' work. (Cries of " Divide.") He would vote for 12 as nearer the smaller number, or for no council at all. Lord STANLEY said they had travelled over the ground so often that he would not detain the committee long. He. agreed with the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) that the numbers of the council depended very much on the nature of the functions to be performed. With regard to the division into committees—if he looked to clause 20 he would find a provision to that effect, although it was not obligatory. It was said the amount of businesswould be greatly reduced; that might be the case eventually, but no such reduction could take place for some time. Ho was ready to bow to the decision of the committee, but he must any that the more he saw of the amount of business the less be liked the reduction from fifteen to twelve. (Hear, hear ) Mr. LOWE could not imagine what these fifteen gent7e men would have to dO. ("Ob, oh," and " Hear, hear.' ) The present Court of Directors read all the papers that came from India, and yet they found time to do a good many other things. The late chairman held the same position in several other companies, and many of them were bankers. One gentleman, Capt. Shepherd, appeared to be the prop of all decayed corporations. He was the prop of the India House, the support of the Hudson's Bay Company; and every thing at the Trinity House. When he considered the importance of 1,0001. to the revenue, he could not wish to pay the larger number. The Board of Control was now divided into six departments with a chief clerk at the head of each. The secretary read over the papers relating to all six. Fe had done it himself, and yet his health had not suffered, nor was his time fully occupied. If they had a council composed of six heads of departments, they would have a council which would be consulted by the Minister, and be a valuable assistance to him. (Hear, hear.) Now, they wool I have tinsel gentle men whose time was not fully occupied to deliberate in council. Was the Minister to be present at these deli berations or not ? If not, they were merely reconstruct ing the double government. If he did attend it would be impossible for, him to get through his duties. The result of the proposed plan would be this—if the President wanted to send aalespltch ha would direct the clerk of the department to prepare one; it would then be laid before the council ; but if they altered it, the Minister would take care to alter it back again. It would not be a council, be cause it would never be consulted. (Hear, hear.) It would go on for two or three years and then be abolished, and the people would be surprised they had ever accepted it. Sir a RAWLINSON, who was interrupted by cries for a division, said he would on abstract principles be inclined to support the smaller number. From his experience he believed 12 would be sufficient. (Hear, hear.) There were three committees at the India-house, ut as three formed a quorum nine were equal to the entire work. This, how ever, was not a mere question of £ s. d. ' • it was desirable at the inauguration of a new system to have as much weight and authority in the council as possible ; ho would therefore vote for the number 15. (Cries of "Divide.") Col. SYKES rose, but was usable to obtain a hearing. The committee then divided on the question that , the word " fifteen" pitand part of the clause : Ayes.... Noes .. 227 .. 165 Majority -62 Viscount PALMERSTON then proposed to insert after the word " members" the words " to be appointed by her Majesty by warrant under her royal sigu manual," the object of his motion being to provide that the whole fifteen members of the council should be nominated by the crown. The object of the bill was to transfer the Government of India to the Queen, and he considered that it would be contrary to the principles of the constitution to allow any portion of the council to be appointed otherwise than by her Majesty. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it would be unnecessary to enter into any lengthened discus sion upon this point, the house having already decided that the council should be partially electd. The argument of the noble lord was quite tallazious, for it was based upon the erroneous assumption that the council was merely an executive body, Viscount DUNKELLIN, amidst loud expressions of impitience, supported the amendment. Mr. S. WORTLEY said that though it was, tech- . nice ly speaking, quite true that members of the executive were all appointed by the sovereign, tee element of elec tion did nevertheless enter 'very materially into the fact of their appointment. Taus Sir. R. Peel, on one occasion, wished to avail himself of the services of his friend, Sir G. Murray, in whom he had the greatest confidence ; but Sir George having lost his election for Perthshire, both Sir R. Peel and the Crown were deprived of his assistance. (Hear, hear.) Again, it was generally understood that the only reason why the right hoe. baronet (Sir E. B. Lytton) had not been appointed to the Colonial-office, on the formation of Lord Derby's cabinet, was the alarm, which had since happened turned out to be a false one, that there would be some difficulty in his re-election. (Hear.) Once more, did anybody suppose that Mr. Fox would ever have been a Minister of the Crown, if his appointment had depended entirely upon the will of the sovereign ? In point of fact, it was the elected House of Commons which had forced him into the Premiership. (Hear, hear.) The house then divided = For the amendment Agaiest it 24 Majority against it -93 This result was received with loud cheers. Mr. GLADSTONE said he had a proposal to make to the committee, which, though it had been mentioned on one or two occasiene, had not yet been discussed; it was that the first Members of the council should be named in the bill. As it wai'notdesirable, however, to proceed any further then, he would move that the chairman report progress, what he he bad said being intended as a notice. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought there were very grave objections to the right hon. gentle man's proposal. The Government did, on one occasion, propose that the names should be inserted. (Laughter.) After that proposition was made e however, they saw reason to believe that it would be very inconvenient and injurious to the public service to carry it out, and at the proper time he should state the objections which he entertained. As there were urgent reasons why supply should be taken on Monday, he proposed that they should not proceed with the committee until next Thursday, and he hoped that by taking the committee on that day and on Friday conse cutively, they would be able to get through that stage of the measure. He proposed that on Monday they should first take the Funded Debt Bill and then go on to supply. He thought it desirable that they Omuta have a morning sitting on Monday, in order to get through the Scotch Universities Bill. (Elear.) It was of great im pertance to Scotch members that that bill should be pro ceeded with as soon as possible. (Hear, hear.) The CHAIRMAN then reported progress. SALE AND TRANSFER OF LAND (IRELAND) 13ILL. The house having gone into committee on this bill, Mr. B. OS E ORNE protested against the bill being pro ceeded with at that late hour (half-past twelve), and com plained of clause 51, which he sai d was one of the most important clauses of the bill, having been disposed of at such a late hour on a previous evening. The CHAIRMA.N . reminded the hon, member that he WAS out of order in referring t o a clause which had been passed. M r ..B. OSBORNE moved that the chairman report pro gress, and gave notice that on the bringing up of the re port he should move that clause 51 be expunged. Mr. WHITESIDE said the remaining clauses were of little importance, and it was very desirable that the bill should pass through committee. 'Mr. WALPOLE hoped that the house would go on with those clauses which were - unopposed, to save time on a future occasion. ' • Mr. MONSELL trusted fi e Government would persist in going on with the bill, for if they did not there was a danger of its failieg through altogether. billM sr4eirf be postponed, t DEASY thought it reasonable that the postponed, instead of a discussion taking place at half-past twelve. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER should not think of proceeding with any discussion of importance at that late bour;'if it were not the wish of the committee. It was said that there was some objection to the mode in which clause 51 had been passed, but he knew of nothing more fair then•the manner in which that clause was oar reed ; it was discussed at some length, and was then carried by ae 9YOZ‘litclatieia majority, If they went into eem. mittee now, they would not discuss the question as to clause 51, but would only take the unopposed clauses. After some further discussion, the motion for reporting progress was agreed to. o• • The Railways Act (Ireland) Continuance Bill was read a third time and passed. The Portendie and Albreda Convention Bill was read a third time and passed. The Chief Justice of Bombay Bill . pused through com mittee. On the motion for going into committee on the Stipen-, diary Magistrates Bill, Mr. WARREN appealed to the Government not to go on with this important bill at that late hour. He had an important amendment to propose ; Mr. HARDY said the hon. gentleman would have an opportunity of making his motion on the report. The house then went into committee, and the various clauses were agreed to. The report on the Clerks of Petty Sessions (Ireland) (Stamps) Bill, was brought up and agreed to. The Art Unions Act Amendment Bill passed through committee. The order of the day for going into committee on the Administration of Justice Bill was discharged. The further proceeding on the Universities (Scotland) Bill was fixed for Monday, at twelve. THE CAGLIARI. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER laid on the table further correspondence relating to the Cagliari. The house adjourned at one o'clock. country Markets LIVER2OOL, JUNE 21 Thore was again a very poor attendance to-day, and both wheat and flour were a very dull sale, with few transac:. tions. Quotations nominally as ou Tuesday last. AVAICEFIELD-JUNE 25. There bas been a quiet demand for wheat at Friday's rates. The show was not large. Beans a dull sale. Bar ley also quiet. Oats and shelling as before. Prices had a downward tendency. AVERAGNB FOR THE WEEK ENDING JIM' 21, 1853. Wheat 2439 quoxters, at 425. Sid' Barley 44 fl . 31s 10d Oats l5 ~ 315.. 01 Beans 5l „ 418 244 Peas EXETER-JUNE 25. CORN.—Wheat, 5s 3d to 5s 6d ; barley, 4s to 4s 3d 1' grinding do., Oe Od to Os Od. Oats, 2s 6d to 2s 9d. Beans, Os 0,1 to 0 Qd. Peas, OOs Od to OOs Od. FLOUlt.—Fine, 30s Od to 32s Od; seconds, 28s Od to 30 Od per sack. CATTLE. —There was a poor supply of bullocks. Best beef, from 9s Od to lOs Od per score ; inferior, 7s to 8s per score; fat calves, 4d to 5d per lb ; barrenners, 6s Gd to 74 Gd. per score ; cows and calves, 121. to 181. t,s ; butchers' calves, Od to 7d per lb., rearin2 calves —s to s each; sheep, ewes and lambs, 21. 5s to 21. 15s per couple; ewes, Od to 6,1 d; wethers, 7d --d; lambs, 7d t071 2 :d per lb. Pigs, large size, —s to —s; second size, —s to —s ; slips, —s to —a ; suckers, —s to —s. Rough fat, 4d per lb. Pork carcases from 7s 6d to 8s Od per score. COIL MAR: JUNE 25. Prices of Coals per ton al the close of the market Wallsend, a d. Bates's West Hartley C Benton West Harticy.l4 0 Bobside W. Hartley 14 Davison's West Hartley 14 Howard's West Hartley Netherton l4 9 Walker Primrose ...12 d: Benson . l4 0 Whitworth l4 6 lleuo Hall Brown's Moor Haigh _ _ . - Main 13 9 fletton .16 6 Lambton l6 0 Elunwiek l4 0 Powell's Dulfryn Steam 20 0 Pees South IZelloe 15 3 Iletton Lyons Main l3 9 Braddyll . 15 0 .t, 95 ;:sold, 61. Wslisend, &a. Framwellgate l4 0 Hilda 13 Gosforth l3 t Shincliffe 14 0 West iletton 15 3 Nixon's Duffryn. 20 C • • Ships at marker BANK OF ENGLAND. -- - An Account, pursuant to the Act 7th and Bth Victoria, cap. 32, for the Week ending on Wednesday, the, 23d day of June, 1858. ISSUE DEP AIiTMENT . X £ Notes issued . 31,821,280 Government debt •• • • 11,015,100 Other securities .. • • 3,459,900 •• • ..... • . . Gold coin and bullion 17,346,%80 • . Silver bullion.• , 231,821,280 1 X 31,821,230 M. MARSHALL, Chief Cashier. Dated the 2 tth day of June, 1858. BANKING DEPARTMENT. Proprietors' capital 14,553,000 Rest • • .• • Public deposits (in cluding E echequer, Commissio..ers of N ational Debt, Sav ings' Banks, and Dividend Accounts) 7,296,156 Other deposits Seven Day and other Etas .... • • • • • • Government securities (Includg.DeadWeight Annuity).. ••. . 10,656,138 Other Securities ..:.•% 14,614,369 Notes ....... ....4.. 12,372,085 Gold aal Silver Coin.. 686,856 733,719 £33029,448 £38,329,448 C. MA.ESIIALL, Chief Cashier. Dated the 24th day of ,Tune, COURSE OF .EXCHANGE.-YESTERDAY. 15' Ditto, three months .. 11 17 ) 4 gotterdam •• •••• •• •• ••• 11 I”.', Antwerp •.•• •• •• •• 25. 35 Brussels .. •• •• ' 35 aarnburgh •• •• • ,• • . 13 7 Altona •• •• •• •• of 0. 441 •••• •.__ Glibrnitar •• •• •• •• Leghorn •• •• •• •• •• .• • • 29 60_ Genba ilan ••••• • • •• Venice • • • • •• • • • • Naples , •• •• •. 41M Palerrno .• •.•• 125 k 25 Messina -... 126 Do. three months .... 25 32% Lisbon ...... •• •• • .52 - Marseilles 25 323 OPorto ".. .. . ... - - 52% - Boardeaux .. • • •.• ;Rio Janeiro ..... • •!••_•• Frankfort-on-Maine .... 118% ;Buenos Ayres.... • ..... Berlin .• •• •• •• •• •• • • •-• • • !New York,6o days' sight • Vienna 10 26 [Philadelphia ... rrieste • • •• ..•• •• • • ea. 10 28 [ ' PEIOES OF =MON. PIM OING Petersburg 35% 'Foreign Gold in Bars £3 17 97 Nladrid 49% Portugal Gold Coin OO " Cadiz • • ...... 49i8 Mexican-Dollars •• OO 0 Barcelona ............ .. New Dollars 0 o 0. Seville.. [AuvsarrsznENT.l —The blessings derived by innumerable thousands of persons of all ranks in society from Du Barry's Revalenta Arabica. Food, are of too palpable and well-founded a character permit of a moment's rational doubt ; for the his tory of the world records nothing so unanimous and universal as the testimonies which have been received of the auspicious effects of this diet ; and when Fifty Thousand known indi viduals have given their personal evidence to-the same pur port, nothing but prejudice and stupidity ocuid withhold concurrence from general verdi..t. In the list of disorders completely cured, after having afflicted the respectfvo patients for periods ranging from a few months to sixty .V.ears, are dyspepsia (indigestion), constipation, functional irregvlarity, obstruction, acid ty, cramps, spasms, fits, heartburn, ,diar rhma, nervousness, affections of the liver and kidneys, flatulency, distention,' palpitation of the heart, nervous headache, deafness, noises In the head and ears, giddie ness, pains between' the' shoulders, and in almost ever part of the body, chronic inflammation and ulceration of the stomach, eruptions of the skin, fever, scrofula, hp purities, poverty of blood; consumption (if not beyond human. aid), dropsy, rheumatism, gout, influenza, grippe, nausea and. vomiting during pregnancy, after eating, orat sea; low spirits, spleen, general debility; paralysis, cough, asthma, tightness across the chest, phlegm, inquietude, sleeplessness, involun tary blushing, tremors,. dislike to society, unfitness for study, delusions, loss of memory, vertigo, blood to the head; ex haustion, groundless fear, indecision, wretchedness, thoughts of self-destruction, &c. Besides its curative effects in cases of morbid-affections,- this delicious Food has been found, by experience, to form the most healthful and nutritious diet for involids, infants, females whose. peculiar condition re quires more than usually careful treatment, Ice. Take one instance ' furnished by Mr. Woodhouse, of Bromley, Middle sex. It was that of a lady, six months gene with pregnancy, and was suffering severely from indigestion and constipation, throwing up-her meals shortly after eating them, hating a great deal of heartburn, and being constantly obliged to re' sort to physic, or the enema, and sometimes to both," The use of the Food produced immediate relief ; and Mr. Wood' house proceeds :—" She has had a much better ' time' than formerly, and the child' is very strong andhealthy. Not satis fied with any thanks that I can give you, she begs that I will express to you MR gratitude for this favourable change, which she entirely attributesto the Revalenta, and to follow ing strictly the advice you have been - so very kind as to gille her from time to time." From such an immense mass of tes timonials, the work of selection is a perplexing one. Suffice it to say, that they breathe one general tone of gratef l acknowledgment, and that Messrs. Du Barry invite any on® who wishes to test the truth •f the repre senta.tions made, by applying to the 'Writers . themselvo o ., This is at once honest, satisfactory, and convincing* Supported by testimonials from the following celebrated Pro fessors of Chemistry: Dr. A. Ure; Dr. Shorland; Dr. Harrel; Dr. Campbell; Dr. Gattiker ; Dr. Wurzer ;.. Dr.. Ingram; Lord Stuart de Decics; the Dowager Countess of Castiestuart; Major Gen. Thomas King, and many other respectable per' sons, whose health has been restored by it, after all other means of cure had. failed. Suitably packed with full instrav Cons. In canisters, 11b. 2s,*9d.;' 21b. 4s. • 6d.; 51b. 1111. 121 b. 225. The 121 b canisters are sent carriage' free on re' ceipt of Post-office order. Barry Du Barry, and - Co., 7 7, Regent-street, London. Important Caution against the fear • ful dangers of spurious imitations.—The Vice-Chancellor Sir William Page Wood granted an Injunction on the 10th Dfaroh. 1854, against Alfred Hooper Nevin for imitating "P s Barry's Revalenta Arabica 'rood. • BIRTHS. COHEN—On the 24th inst., at 24, Tavistock-square, the wife of David Cohen, Esq., of a daughter. GAMMELL—On the 24th inst., at Osnaburg Villa, near ike Royal Military College, the wife of Captain Gamin, sth Royal Lancers, of a daughter. Guauem--On the 24th inst., at Herne-hill, Surrey, hfr ° ' Christopher North Graham, of a son. MARRIAGES. RICARDO—CRAWLEY—At Bryngwyrt, Henry David slr cardo, Esq., cf Hyde, Minchinhampton, to Ellen, &ill°. ter cf the Ven. Archdeacon Crawley. VAUGHAN—BURNABY —On the 24th inst., at St. reter'ol Eaton-square, Viscount Vaughan, eldest son of the gtill of Lisburne, to Gertrude Laura, third daughter of Bp; wyn Burnaby, Esq., of Baggrave Hall, in the county °` Leicester. DEATHS. BunNrooT—On the 23d inst., at Brighton, J. FL Bran.loo4 M.D., aged 43. BREALY—On the 23d inst., at Chapel-place, - Upper 0' monton, Richard Brealy, Esq., aged 49. FLOOD—On the 20th inst., at Chudleigh, Devon, Georg e Flood, E q., aged 67. HICKS—On the 24th inst., Richard Hicks, Esq., of NO', gate-market, and Clapham rise, for 27 years Deputy Castle Baynard Ward, aged 69. KNAPP—On the 23d inst., at Latchworth Rectory, trai n Hitchiu, the Ray. Samuel Hartepp Knapp, aged 63. RAIMES —On the 24th inst., at Edinburgh, John Raja I Esq., rged 76. THOMPSON—On the 22d inst., at 8, Peaseod-street, W ind sor, Mr. John Thompson, aged 63. Nposr : Printed and Published by MURDO YOU l * of N o . 112, Strand, Printer, at Tilt: 8u» Übic ,L - . st ra zid, in the Precinct cf the Savy, i n the coawf of Difiddlosex, SaturdaY: June 26, 185$, , =; 1 N. 13 Assun being i Capi Rev( Nlnc dirldeA All I the Pr , future The 70 per I N ; llshekll has be( Wide: currim annual tho de Of grac D 3. Sun, •at 9 at 8. Sore impr. retire is ent tireni Bond been, No form, No U No No Want No. gentle RICO Th( premi The spurn: Par the P 1 may t The place, 1 ,ans 4, r, Frnpo, Wm Fam John Yoss The May, Folic take out ii 183 P 1841 184! 1851 The nation I he Tw( 11 vr. y Its 1 to are Its i The Abo Sinc os thre For Man, New I T Sol Hoop G. F. W. E streel Hard: rci VII