The Sun. — London, England, 1860-02-14 00:00:00

I I I I e state- Lila the of coal, put ex lore, ou ch pro e treaty a to ap of her last for lat verl Lrticle of acusaion Inainent• °lir part (Hear. war with hat war• a of foal L a power Olt be et n France )hibit the ce, Writ Lt be pre perfectlY )n of coal Coal woo rae in the ) declared le of war ►hich hid he hoe . on on two 2d readi4 )13 so foe r from the .cial Id produce t required; ons should renounced "r ipated coy* nge of t he* e cheapest iost writer. little diffr I unless 1 0 , -event OW ion not for as nothing Now, hay admit our uced dulr far as war: on why th o ur coal and rto thougs'. B purpost for discula :oral subjeo i e right lac? ed to obtolll_, the mitoti, t o b e del was ono 0 kea did s 1 Lae by salt to that p O O o• be give n .r ext. (P 17.1 its now 1; 1 4 gay 1 101 . en put to aporatiott ;day. 01 l if that b 1. fair dioolw C. THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 14, 1860. has temporarily deprived us. (Hear, hear.) Let ins, in the first place, as an important point for our consideration, give the committee some idea of what other nations really possess. There is, happily, no longer any mystery in these matters. (Hear, hear.) I rejoiced when the right hon. baronet oppo site gave us last year the fullest information about our own and foreign navies, and shall follow his example. I may also state that foreign nations have no sort of hesitation in show ing us their dockyards. An idea at ono time prevailed that the French did not like us to state publicly in Parliament the extent and composition of their navy. Only two years ago, in anticipation of a discussion in this house, and know ing there was some little difference of opinion as to the amount of the French force, I wrote to the French Minister of Marine, asking whether he would have any objection to give me a list of the French navy. He sent me, in reply, the name and force of every ship in the navy. (Hear, hear.) What I am about to state, therefore, need excite no appre hension, as being likely to give the least offence to other nations. I begin with France. The French navy is really becoming very powerful. (Hear, hear.) At the present time the French have 32 ships of the line afloat and five building; 34 frigates afloat and 13 building; five iron cased ships—of which I shall have occasion to speak pre sently—building ; 17 corvettes afloat and two building ; 39 gunboats afloat and 29 building ; five floating-batteries afloat and four building ; 31 transports , 80 avisos afloat and three building. All these are steam- vessels ; 224 are afloat and 61 building. (Hear.) We have reason to be lieve that most of those which are building might be launched within a few weeks, but I confine the force at the immediate disposal if the French to 244 ships. It is true that if any gentleman were to inquire at the French Ad miralty, he would be told that they had only nine ships-of the-line at sea, the rest being in reserve ; but we khould never lose sight of the fact that every one of those 244 vessels could be manned and sent to sea in a very few weeks. (Hear, hear.) " Ships in reserve" is a very good term for the French, and I do not quarrel with it, but in one sense of the word those ships are perfectly ready. The result is, therefore, that the French have 244 steam-vessels which, if hostilities were to break out, which God forbid—and we have, indeed, every reason to believe that no such eventuality will occur—could be manned and sent to sea within a very few weeks, some of them within a few days. (Hear, hear.) But there is anothea Power which is making great struggles to create a steam navy. I mean Russia. We are informed on very good authority that the Russians have nine ships of the line afloat and nine building; 18 frigates afloat, and three build ing; 10 corvettes, afloat and 11 building; 30 small vessels, of which we do not know the force, afloat; 112 gunboats afloat, and 25 building ; eight transports. The total is 187 steam vessels afloat and 48 building. That is a very for midable navy, and should be taken into consideration when we:are discussing what amount of force we ought to main tain at sea. (Hear.) England, as is well known, has of late years been endeavouring to form reserves at a vast expense. First of all, the right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle established the continuous service; then we had Coast Volunteers. Up to the present time the last-mentioned scheme has not been very successful. I mention this sub ject now, instead of waiting until I referred to our own force in order to show the distinction between ourselves, who really have, so to speak, no reserves, and the French and Russians, who have vast bodies of men at their immediate disposal. (Hoar.) I am obliged to say that before stating the force which we have in commission, and which, accord ing to my calculation, is that which may fairly be compared with what the French have afloat. The distinction between the fleets of the two countries is this—that while all the French ships which are afloat can be manned at very short notice, it is only those which we have in commission which are in a similar position. On the first of December last we had in commission the following steamships—l exclude sail ing vessels altogether—line-of-battle ships, 27 ; frigates, 43 ; sloops, small vessels, and gunboats, 94 ; total 164, being an increase of 46 vessels as compared with the number of smaller ships in commission on the Ist of December, 1856. In addition, we had on the Ist of February, 1859, the guardships, the Coastguard tenders and cruisers, all steam-vessels, making a total of 244 steamships in commission. Since that date we have commissioned one line-of-battle ship and two fri gates. I do not think that can be called anything like an undue or improper force. The force which we havefor the defence of our own shores, including, with the permission of my gallant friend the member for Southwark (Sir C. Napier) the Mediterranean squadron, is as follows :-27 line-of-battle ships, 14 frigates and corvettes, and 29 sloops and gunboats ; total 70, which is a very respectable force. Of the 27 line-of-battle ships which Me keep going back wards and forwards, 14 are at home and 13 in the Mediter ranean. In addition to this force we have the 10 Coast guard blockships which ate very useful for the defence of our harbours—(hear, hear)—and 17 or 18, or sometimes 20 leaders, gunboats, and cruisers. In China we have 14 frigates and 41 sloop. ; total, 65 vessels ; and upon other station., some at Vancouver's Island, some on the North American station, and some at other places, we have three line-of-battle ships, 19 frigates and corvettes, and 32 sloops and gunboats—total 54. This is the force which we have to oppose an enemy. God forbid that I should use that word as though any opposition was likely to occur—this is the force we maintain at sea in comparison with the forces of France and Russia. We have of line-of-battle ships 48 afloat, and 11 building, and we expect within the next month to launch two more, which will make 50 afloat. Of frigates we have 34 afloat and 9 building or converting; steam blockships, 9 afloat ; iron-cased vessels, 4 building ; corvettes, 16 afloat, and 5 building; sloops, 45 screw and 35 paddle, total SO afloat and 15 building ; small vessels, 27 afloat ; gunboats, 169 afloat and 23 building; floating batteries, 8 afloat; transports, troopships, tenders, yachts, &c., screw 18, paddle 43, total 61; screw mortar ships, 4 afloat. Supposing the committee is pleased to consent to these estimates, we hope to add to the navy before the end of the next financial year 10 line-of-battle ships, 12 frigates, 4 iron-cased ships, 4 corvettes, 15 sloops, and 23 gun-vessels and gunboats. That includes the con version of four line-of-battle ships and four frigates. With regard to the estimates generally, before I turn to the par • limier votes, I wish only to state to the committee that they will find that the great increase arises upon three votes, those referring to the number of men, the building of ships, and the transport of troops. This expenditure is very large, but I hope it is of a temporary and special nature, conse quent upon the hostilities with China. I do not enter into the question as to the policy of those hostilities, but I think that, under the circumstances, it is right for the Admiralty to present an estimate which will be adequate to the per formance of the services _that may be required. (Hoar.) I will now ask the committee to turn to vote No. 1, upon which there is an increase of no less than!.£4lo,ooo. 'We ask for an increase of 11,700 men and boys, of which number we propose to add to the fleet, 8,000 seamen, 1,000 marines, and 2,000 boys (this last addition being in accordance with the recommendation of the Royal commission as to the esta blishment of the training ships), 100 additional Coast guardsmen afloat, and 600 on shore. The Coastguards. men on shore are to replace the old Custom-house civi lians, who are being superannuated. The Board of Ad-. miralty have given to the question of the number of men required the most serious consideration, and that which has been asked for is only enough to man the ships in commis sion, and to carry out another recommendation ofthe Royal commission, that we should maintain a reserve of seamen in our own ports. (Hear.) We hope we shall be enabled to keep up a force at sea according to the numbers I have men tioned, perhaps with some little increase here and there, as well as a reserve of seamen in our home ports ; and in addi • tion we hope to be able to maintain a body of marines not less than 6,000 as a home force. Sir J. PAKINGTON.—What would you state as the average number of the home force ? Lord CLARENCE PAGET.—We hope to have a re serve of 10,000 men over and above what are employed on active service. Of course, it is impossible to say exactly what will be the force available, but it is the deur* of the Admiralty to carry out the recommendation of the Royal com mission, that there should be a considerable reserve of sea men in the home ports, and available for any emergency. In connexion with vote No. 1, we propose to i ncr e ase th e pay of the masters, engineers, pay-masters, and chaplains of the Royal Navy. Last year my right hon. friend opposite (Sir J. Pakington) proposed what has given very general satis faction in the navy, an increase in the pay of the surgeons of the navy. It was a great misfortune, however, that ho overlooked the claims of three other classes of officers who labour under the same disadvantages as the surgeons—that is to say, to whom the higher ranks of the service are prac tically, if not absolutely, closed. A very strong reason why we should improve the position of the assistant-masters is to be found in the scarcity of these officers which the Navy List exhibits. They are men. of great respectability and high education, and they naturally prefer the merchant ser vice to the navy. The same remark holds good of the en gineers, who do not care to give up the higher pay which they get in the merchant service to come into the navy. As to paymasters, There is no difficulty in procuring them, but • they are in the same social position, and it is impossible to leave them out of view in framing the scheme. The propo sal is that there should be a small incr ease of pay to each of those classes The change will cons ist chiefly in putting them in a higher position, with their present pay,—that is to say, they will be allowed to count towards their master's pay for the time they have been second masters, and so on with the paymasters and engineers. It is proposed they should have the advantage of counting the time during which they have acted before we have confirmed their rank, and also part of the time they have been assistants, which will be a great boon to these officers. If her Majesty should sanction the arrangement I will lay it on the table. The cost of this increase will be only some £25,000. I do not know that the scheme will give unbounded satisfaction. Some of the parties concerned may think it a rattier niggardly advance, but it is all the Government, think it right to propose. The item fur good conduct pay to petty officers is very much the same as last year. There is one large item not in the present estimate which was very considerable in that of last year. 1 mean the half bounty. The charge for seamen's clothing, tobacco, and soap, £380,502 is very large this year, even thong £274,594 it is assumed will be repaid by seamen in the course of the year, and I had some doubt whether it ought to fall entirely on the present estimate or be in part provided for in that of last year. The enormous addition to the fleet, and the gra tuitous issue of clothing exceeded the calculations of the comptroller, and our store being exhausted, this largo item required to be taken. The vote for victualling needs no fur ther explanation than that I have given for the previous one. In the third vote, that for the Admiralty, there is an increase to the amount of £14,000. I have received from the Accountant-General of the Navy a very curious statement as to the amount of superintendence both at the Admiralty and dockyards since 1821, which shows very clearly that we are much harder worked now than our predecessors used to be. In 1821 the navy estimates amounted to £0,382,785—a very different figure from the estimates of the present day ; and the superintendents of the Admiralty and Navy Boards whioll were then separate, consisted of not less thin 31 people—seven lords, 18 commissioners, and nine secre taries. The present estimates amount to £12,802,000, or more than double those of 1821, and the superintendence of the Admiralty consists of only 13 persons—namely, six lords, two secretaries, and five principal officers. We are obliged to take a considerable sum this year for additional clerical assistance, temporary clerks, and the like • but on referring to the accountsof 1821 I find that the clerking de partment was then about as numerous as new. The cost of the Admiralty at Whitehall was £123,986, in 1821, against £97,308 at the present time. (Hear, hear.) Another item of increase in this vote is in consequence of the Board order which was made at the time when the right hon. baronet was at the head of the Admiralty. It provides that the Director of the Works Department shall no longer be charged with Vote 11, but that the expenditure shall be shown under the heads of each establishment, and I believe it is a very good arrangement. (Hear, hear.) I should mention that as there is such a vast amount of business in the Controller's Department it is absolutely necessary to give him someassistance, and I believe it will be a positive matter of economy. The fact is that this officer, who super intends the dockyard expenditure, and who really ought to be constantly going into the dockyards, overlooking the construction of ships and alterations taking place, is kept a prisoner in his office by the vast amount of business which he has to do. (Hear.) The Duke of Somerset has gone into the report of the Committee ox Dockyard Economy, and his minute, which will be shortly in the hands of mem bers, presents many suggestions and remarks which will be found to be very valuable. Having given some atten tion to the question of the payment of the men in the dock yards, I must admit that it is fraught with difficulties. Whether to pay the men by day labour, whether by task or job, whether their earnings are to be unlimited, and whether they are to work extra time, are all matters of vital import ance. The question involves the expenditure of millions of the public money, and therefore it has been considered very carefully by the Admiralty. But lam bound to say that when the hoe, member who has given notice of such a motion proposes an inquiry, ho will not find any great opposition on the part of the Admiralty. (Cheers.) In the meantime it will be oar business to reform wherever we can. We shall not wait for the report of that commit tee to carry out improvements which we think are to the advantage of the service, but we shall really look forward to that inquiry with a considerable amount of interest. (Hear.) It is not that we consider the Dockyard Committeehas not done its duty. They have made many most valuable sug gestions, and some of them we have already carried out. With regard, for instance, to the entry of apprentices, we have taken steps to improve that system, and various other details upon which I will not dilate. We still think, how ever, that there is a feeling on the part of the country that we do not get value for our money. (Cheers.) With that feeling existing, it is wisdom, both on the part of Govern ment and of Parliament to forward by every means any inquiry which may be thought necessary. If it shall be found that the present system works well, no man will rejoice more than I shall, or snore than, I am sure, will the HO) t hon. baronet. But if any method can be found of constructing men of war—always bearing in mind that they must be built with reference to all these requirements—at a less expense, it will be the duty of her Majesty's Govern ment to give every possible assistance in making that dis covery. (Hear, hear.) There is no material increase in Vote 4, for the Coastguard. We take, it will be observed, the same amount for the annual retainers, conduct-money, &c., for the Naval Reserve, as we did last year. This new force, to which the country looks with so much satisfaction, has certainly up to the present time not fulfilled the expec tations which were raised. I always felt, from the first, that it was an experiment. I know what seamen are. They are fine, noble, hearty creatures, but men of remarkably suspicious character, and if there are any people they are suspicious of, it is the Admiralty. (Laughter.) We are really much indebted to the Board of Trade for the exer tions which they have made in drawing up the regulations and giving us their assistance to carry out tho measure. I wish I could state to the house that the men were entering freely ; but they are not. Captain Browne reports from the different merchant ports that the mon say, "We think the Inducement very fair. We think it very handsome; but they only want to kidnap us. The moment we put our names down they will send us off to China." It is very curious to see men labouring under that delusion. I have been asked over and over again by directors of the great shipping companies, and by men of importance in these commercial ports, for some assurance on the part of the Government that the men will not be called out until war is declared. I told them I could not give that assurance, but I also told them that it was perfectly certain there was no intention to call them out, except in the event of a critical emergency; that the threat of immediate hos tilities, or of something which would oblige us to make the greatest exertions for the protection of our shores, were the only circumstances under which the Go vernment would call for their services. If I can re assure them by what I say to-night, I really believe little more is wanting to induce them to flock to the force. (Hear, hear.) It is so far satisfactory that they are begin ning to get over this extraordinary idea. I wish to declare to them that her Majesty's Government have no sort of in tention to kidnap them into the navy. (Hear, hear.) And perhaps I had better add a more practical assurance—that if we wished we could not enter them in the navy, because the nnmber is complete, and except for casualties we have no means of entering any considerable number of men over and above what we have at present. (Hear.) I think that is a very satisfactory state of things, and that the house will be glad to hear there is no difficulty in getting men. It must be remembered that a vast force of ships is only the creation of the last few months, and that this fleet is wholly manned. (Cheers.) The bounty has been reduced to £4 for able, and £2 for ordinary seamen. I will not enter into the question of the propriety of the bounty. The bounty has been given, and all the men are enjoying it, They are now in that respect on the same footing as the army, and we can raisethe bouni y to-morrow without committing any injustice to the men already in the service. her Majesty's Government have not come to any decision upon the sub • ject. It is a small sum—only £20,000 out of the millions we vote for the navy. It is a gift on entering the service which enables the men to purchase clothes and other articles, and it is a question whether it is not advisable to continue it. At present it is only in force until the 31st of March next. (Hear, hear.) Upon vote 5. for the scientific branch, there is a small increase, in which I think the house will be disposed to agree. The charge is for chronometers. The house will scarcely credit that up to this time officers in command of ships have been obliged to buy their own chro nometers, and it really is a scandal to the service that we should have cast this burden upon officers, many of them poor gentlemen, who have enough to do to pay their way. Line-of-battle ships, frigates, and troop-ships will have three, sloops two, and gunboats one. (Hear, hear.) Vote 6 is for her Majesty's establishment at home, and on this vote I am going to ask the house to agree to an inconsider able increase to permit the employment of two assist ant-superintendents at the great yells of Portsmouth and Plymouth. What I have said about the Comptroller of the Navy is doubly true with regard to the superintendents of these two great yards. One of the great reasons, I have always thought, why we hear of idling in the dockyards, and of there net being as much activity there as there ought to be, arises from the constant confinement of the superin tendents to their offices. Their whole business is to write letters--and I put it to the house whet'her that is a proper occupation for such officials. (Hear, hear.) If you want economy you must not stint your superintendents. You must enable them to go about the dockyards and see that the men are not idling: The appointment of these two as sistant superintendents may save thousands of pounds by keeping the men at work. (Hear, hear.) The Admiralty have also thought it their duty to look into the whole ques tion of the correspondence of the superintendents. lam afraid to tell the house the number of returns we asked for. Our table at the Admiralty is literally swamped with the dockyard papers, but we are endeavouring to go into this matter of returns with a view of suppressing such as are no longer necessary, and I trust that we may produce a great lessening of labour. It will be observed by the house that in all these yards additional temporary clerks are employed. We are quite aware of the growing evil of these temporary clerks. (Hear.) It has become a public inconvenience in these great establishments ; but the house must remember that if you have additional workmen and additional ships in com mission the work of the clerks Is also increased in the same ratio. We propose to take into consideration whether some improvement may not be made in the establishment of the clerks with a view to lessening labour. No 7is the vote for foreign yards,iu which there is a small increase for increased business, principally at Malta and the Mediterranean yards. On vote 8 for artificers, my right hon. friend opposite will, perhaps, find fault with me because we have reduced it somewhat. When the present Board of Admiralty came into office, we asked the house to agree to an addition of £lOO,OOO on this vote, over and above what the right hon. gentleman had proposed. We did so, because on reference to the Surveyor of the Navy he told us that if th a t £lOO,OOO we re not added to the estimate, it would be impossible for him to complete the programme which the right hon. gen tleman had laid before the house. We asked the house, therefore, to agree to that £lOO,OO O ; but we have now made such progress that tho Government think it possible to co vert to the seine number of men as were employed when at.n fact, not a decrease, but the head of the Board of the Admiralty.rie•h th o n T . h g i en s only knocking off the £lOO,OOO which we took over and ttlheemreafnor was e a Lo above the right hon. gentleman's estimate of last year. Vote , 9 is the same as last year, with the exce p tion of a small sum fur the artificers of the fleet who are allowed extra pay when they are employed in the dockyards ashore. Vote 10, for the repair and building of ships, ought to bear the motto— I have always thought " Diruit, cedificat, mutat, quadrate rotundis." It is all pulling to pieces, building up ag ain, and altering in every shape. (Hear, hear.) Looking narrowly into these alterations, I may differ somewhat from some ef my col leagues as to the extent to which the conversio n of s hips ought to be carried. Because I am in office I am not going to retreat from the opinion which I expressed out of office. I greatly dislike these alterations. My opinion is that those old ships are not worth the time and money expended on them. In my humble opinion, it is like putting " ne w wine into old bottles." (Hear.) The two woods do not agree, and they speedily decay, If you cut a hole into one of these old ships and put an engine into it, it may be made very valuable for the defence of the country as a superior kind of block ship, but I cannot agree in the propriety of lengthen ing them at the bows, cutting them in two, and so on. This vote is composed of several items, but I cannot say that it gives any great detailed information. (Hear, hear.) The items are large and the information small. The Board of Admiralty have anxiously considered their vote, and they are most desirous of giving every possible in formation with regard to it. I should have liked to lay this vote on the table very much in the same form as vote 11 for public works, but the Admiralty laboured under very i g m r e p u t t i t d e i fli b l c a ul m t e i e t s o with o r n e e g , a rd bu t t o i f i w e I r a e n t i o ve r y iinp u u tnewi blamel ing t to o one, ; r e , really i el tlaytwvooutl askeded Nb f oroe. to laon t . e d l e ll a t a m o i l l ' e s n d e a informati on t o unatu rally C a m y m t 0 0 l n d . w , with w h o h n o regardlhave " How can w e g i ve an est i mate for a future na f t o one r vyt i he n ori formation, year, when we really don't know what proportion of money we have expended during the past year on building, or on repairing, or on what particular ships it has been ex pended." The Board of Admiralty called on the Accountant- General to give a return which I very much wish was now on the table of the house—of the cost of ships during the past year. That return, which is of a very interesting- cha racter, gives the name and the soot of every ship in the navy under six different heads—namely, ships building, convert ing from sail to screw, maintenance of ships in commission, of the steam reserve, of old sailing ships in ordinary, and maintenance of the dockyard guard. The timber, beams, ausl other stores required for these different purposes are likewise shown. I do not say that the return is perfect, because it is a novelty ; it has hitherto existed in the dock yard, but it has never yet been practically turned to account, and the items consequently have not been properly charged —in fact, it may be sail that its present value is nil as coin pared with what it will be in future years. As the name of the dockyard is attached to each ship, with the particulars of the amount of material Consumed, the cost of labpur, the outlay on her engines, and every detail respecting her inter nal construction and fitting out, the Admiralty will be at once enabled to refer to the cost of each vessel, and to com pare it with the cost of similar vessels in the other yards. (Hear, hear.) In all matters of account there is nothing like publioity—(hear, hear)—and I am persuaded that one great and immediate effect of this comparative view of the cost of ships will be a direct tendeney to economy in the several establishments. (Hear, hear.) Take the case of a ves sel in commission very few "persons who have not turned their attention to that subject can form any idea of the cost to which the country is put by each addi tional line-of-battle-ship. The public say, " Give us ten line-of-battle ships additional;" this return will give them an idea of the magnitude of the request. (Hear.) 'Within the last few days a gallant officer in command of one of her Majesty's vessels and an intimate friend of mine, called at the Admiralty, and in the course of conversation I showed him what his ship had cost during the past year, and he was absolutely thunderstruck. (Hear, hear.) Sir C. NAPIER—Such a return existed once before. Lord C. 'PAGET—What has been done shows what is capable of being done, and I trust that if my right hon. friend (Sir J. Pakington) succeeds to office, he will continue to require the same informatioa. When two or three years have elapsed, we shall be able to place this vote upon a much more intelligible and satisfactory footing, by striking an average of the cost which this return will exhibit. I have shown the house what we possess in ships built ; it will now be interested, probably, in knowing what we have con structed in tonnage, and what we propose to build during the present year. It may possibly be remembered that, in proposing the estimates last year we announced our inten tion, of course subject to contingencies, of building 46,000 tons of shipping in the dockyards. Sir J. PAKINGTON--Exclusive of conversions ? Lord C. PAGET—We said we would convert four line of-battle ships and five frigates, in addition. What we have actually built amounts to 19,730 tons in ships of the line, 13,654 in frigates, 5,436 in corvettes, and 522 in gun vessels. We have not fulfilled our promise as to frigates, in which class I stated that we would build 16,000 tons, the reason being that there was an insufficiency of timber for the purpose ; but we have made up for this deficiency in another way, for we have gone beyond our undertaking in the conversion of sailing into steam frigates and screw ships. (Hear, hear.) What we propose doing in the present, or, as my right hon. friend reminds me, the ensuing financial year, is to build 13,216 tons of ships of the line, 13,500 tons of frigates, 4,871 tons of corvettes, 8,045 tons of Bleeps and gun vessels, and 302 tons of gunboats, making a total of 39,934 tons. In addition we propose to convert four more line-of battle ships and four frigates. It is necessary that I should afford some idea of the expenditure of timber that is required. Our ordinary establishment in the dockyards, which is regarded as two years' stock, consists of 60,000 loads of timber for shipbuilding purposes ; but during the present financial year, instead of consuming tho ordinary rate of 30,000 loads, we have used 61,000 loads of timber, the result of whicn has been that we have been literally unable to import timber with the same rapidity with which we were working it up. Of copper, also, it has been found exceedingly difficult to procure an adequato supply, for this last year we have consumed nearly 1,000 tons. (Hear, hear.) Some discrepancy will be observed between 8 and 10, which should bear a strict proportion to each other ; but, having thus lessenel our stock of timber, we this year require a larger sum by £Bl,OOO on that account, and we do not increase the number of men in an equal ratio. It may not be uninteresting to the house to know what the French are doing in this respect. It is true that they have greater facilities for procuring timber than we have, but they have in stcck 160,000 loads, or sufficient to build 15 line-of-battle ships, 15 frigates, and 15 corvettes, which is a stock far above anything we have ever had in this coun try. (Hear.) The next item, for coals, also exhibits an increase, not only because we have a more numerous fleet, but because we were obliged to send a large stock to China. I pass to the next 'tern, for the purpose of steam machinery, as to which the house would, doubtless, desire some infor mation. We are building engines for line-of-battle ships to the extent of 5,700-horse power ; for frigates, 7,100- horse power ; other vessels and corvettes, 1,200-horse power; sloops, 3,000 horse power; gun vessels, 1,200- horse power; gunboats, 600-horse power—that is t say, a power in all equal to that of 18,800 horses. These cost £55 15s. each horse power. This is a very high price for machinery, no doubt. But if the committee look carefully to the items that compose a steam engine for a man-of war, they will agree with the Committee on Steam Machinery, who report that, regard being had to the difference between them, the navy steam engines do not cost more than those of merchant vessels. They must have spare gear, their engines must work in a small space, and they are in other respects very much more expensive than those of the merchant service. I will now turn to the iron cased ships which are building. The right hon. gentleman opposite (Sir J. Pakington), hearing that they were build ing in France several of these vessels, thought it right to take a supplementary or special vote—l think a supplemen tary vote—for building two iron-cased frigates, one of which was ordered to be built before the late Government quitted office. The right hon. gentleman asked me, soon after the present Government came into office, whether the Admiralty were going on with the second frigate. I replied that the Board of Admiralty were carrying out certain ex periments, and that if they were satisfactory the Admiralty would go on with the second frigate. Shortly afterwards the Admiralty ordered a second frigate to be built of the same dimensions as the first. These vessels are of enor mous scantling and very large tonnage. The Warrior and the Black Prince are of 6,039 tons each, and 1,200-horse power. They will be entirely cased with iron, and I am one of those who believe that they will be vessels of a most for midable nature. There will be two of the tonnage I have mentioned, and there will also be two of a smaller tonnage, 3,368 tons, which the Board of Admiralty will have built during the autumn. They will be iron-cased, and will have the same power of resisting shots, and the same capability of defence. The late Board ordered six sloopsof 200-horse power and 12 gun vessels of 18-horse power. The present Board have ordered 10 gun-boats of 60-horse power, making the total cost during the present and future financial year that we are building by contract of £1,355,807. This sum, I ought to add, includes the machinery. It ie an enormous sum, over and above what we are building in our dockyards. These are the e rincipal items of vote 10. We are very anxi ous to give every information on this vote. We are duly sensible of the necessity of economy in building our ships, and we trust that the inquiry which is to be moved for by my hon. friend on the labour in our dockyards will give us great assistance herein. At present the country is in the po sition of a very wealthy gentleman who has lived very gene rously, and has not called for his bills; who has been, in short, what is called a "fast man." If ho determined to live .economically for the future, the first thing he would do would be to collect his recounts. That is the first process for economising these great dockyard votes. 'We want to know the amount of cost and the value of stock, and then we shall look about us and see if we cannot reform. (Hear, hear.) I now turn with pleasure to vote 11 (new works, improvement, and repairs in the yards), for this is the only vote for the effective service that shows a real reduction. I believe that we have taken every suns that is requisite for keeping our dockyards in really good lepair, while at the same time we have avoided any new works.except in a few cases, the vote being mostly expended in completing the work of our predecessors. I used formerly to be of opinion that many of our new works wore on too grand a scale, and I confess that my visits to the dockyards have confirmed soy views. I accompanied my noble friend (the Duko of Somerset) to Woolwich, and we looked at a magnificent building, overtopping the Thames, and looking like some great palace. This was the new Marine Infirmary. We walked over it and paced its stately colonnades, and I am afraid we wore both sordid enough to say that its architec tural magnificence cost too much money. (Hear, hear.) At Keyham the same remark occurred. No doubt. there are great public buildings in our dockyards, all of them very l i necessary, but too much attention has, I think, in many cases been given to architectural design, and too much scope to the taste of our engineers. Now, the present Board of Admiralty disapprove greatly of any unnecessary expendi ture of this kind, and when the architects and engineers of our yards have brought us remarkably tasteful designs for our approbation we have rejected them, and asked them to give us something more simple. (Hear.) I take some pride in having kept this vote down, and I do not believe that any substantial work really required has been omitted. For in stance, we are going on with a deck at Portsmouth which was commenced some years ago, and we have taken a small vote for that. The next rote, for medicines and medical stores, shows a small increase, but not beyond what is necessary for the increase of the fleet. Vote 13, for the miscellaneous ser vices shows an increase of £lB,OOO, the reasons for which are shown in the votes, and I now turn to vote 14—the half pay vote—to which I would ask the attention of my hen friend the member for Sunderland. He is under the idea that the non-effective charge for the navy is growing year. by year, and is becoming so great a burden as to require looking into. But so far from that, the half-pay vote for the future year shows a decrease of £27,000. This is, in fact, a yearly decreasing vote, and in a few years, as the elder officers give way to nature—(" Hear, hear," from Ad miral Walcott)—the committee will remember my hon. and gallant friend's eloquence on that subject—the burden will greatly diminish. I must now allude to the vote of £12,000 as an additional charge for improving and altering the eye tem of retirement of officers of the royal navy, with a view to the increased efficiency and reduction in the numbers of officers on the active lists. The Admiralty has had under j i onfure t noooefp e rntnt: s hiliteoco e n:fr r iffiteofljooonnseus ranksconsideration, o f the navy. the rate ar of h a ar. promotion ) t is notamong only the a n it s eeeserrtt the ibtsece ehthat consideration n. to ot sm t lit dl h hfe e e ebraiye o anl ffi tadi iehiocvffone certain urrosl indifferent therenb ttr an u hao t tentwe necessary ie e clefsl vote e bi ee itselfs slack promotionan r oi yu allowed, t dilltoh a t sec h ahi ur e ai e lyun ffi wbtei y c eent efficiency kept cpwaahnr pre pared which will per suadingtw longer the t eaa affect house be e ttnost d she the e p t depended n aa d nhg r e ko d us e °Boo house to t t hoot this exert themselves with zeal o in at som la e st de s gs ne v e e e , e t d h e e d in l I need mention under this head, captains. establishing w i t s e p i nt s a Tha n r o i a ti particula rs eia s sp a n u e r et : i x a nhccse . B o :opo f mntn W i t usio h yin h a e fe.o e nh n r p da l aNrt a w vrhg n s e ee: , and, in widows of warrant officers. (" Hear, hear," from Sir C. Napier.) I am convinc e d th at no grant will be more ap preciated by the navy ; at present it is limited to £5OO, and that sum, I nay say, we h ave screwed out of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) All preceding Chancellors of th e Exchequer have resisted the grant ; but my right hon. friend has conceded it, on the ground that it is just and right. (Hear, hear.) The last vote to which I shall call the attention of the house is that for transport. It does not properly belong to the ex penses of the navy; but the Admiralty has to provide all the means ef ocean transport for the army. We have thought it right to take for the present year the large sum of £120,000 for the freight of ships on monthly pay, or for the purchase of them, besides the vote for the conveyance of stores and troops. I may now close this statement. In doing so I should belie my own feelings if I did not add that it is with extreme pain tly th inazin whatevertained— ma happen, the people may be able to say, " We ar e sa f e that I find myself compel led to be the i nstrument of propell ing to vote this vast suns of mone y for the nav y. But I am convinced that it is the w ish of the p eo p l e of this nation and their should shouldbeunder no alarm--that, under the protection of our navy. In a discussion on th e defenses of the country last year , some ver y valuable a dvice y was given to the house by my hon. friend the member for Rochdale (Mr. Cobden). He thought that much of our naval force might with advantage be abolished; but there was one passage of his speech so marked by patriotism and eentaining such sound and reasonable views that I can't help reading it to the house. I believe it cannot d o better th an follow the advice conveyed. The hon. member for Roch dale said "he did not wish to reduce our navy to the same force as that of France ; but he should like to see the two Governments agree on some relative proportion of force ; thus, the French navy might be two-thirds that of England e--where the French had two ships England might have three." If you examine the state of the French navy you will find we have not surpassed what the hon. member for Rochdale considered the necessary superiority of our navy over that of France. (Hear, hear.) And taking into con sideration the strength of the Russian navy, I say we aro bound to continue our exertions till we place our navy on a really sound and efficient footing. But I must also say, on the part of her Majesty's Government, that though they have agreed to these very large estimates, they do not con sider themselves bound to expend them, should circum stances render a less amount sufficient. We thought it better to ask the house at once to grant a sufficient amount of money, and number of men, than to apply to it again with additional votes and supplementary estimates. But if the dispute with China should end peacefully, if public affairs on the Continent and throughout the world generally should appear favourable, the Government will not feel bound to spend the full amount f the vote, because the House has generously granted it I thank tho House fur the indulgence it has extolled to the statement I have made; and I shall be glad teinswer any question in reference to it. On the first vote of £2,216,945 1 defray the charge of 54,000 officers, seamen, anti boys to be employed in her Majesty's fleet for the ensuing ear, being put by the chairman, Sir J. PAKINGT ON said,—Then I took up the navy estimates for this year I certainly elt some curiosity to see how far the opinions the noble loi expressed last year, as to the new form in which certainvotes, especially vote 10, aught to appear on the estimate, had been carried out. But I found vote 10 on the paps, wearing very much its old shape. Still, it is only just to he noble lord to say that his statement has not only been yry clear, but made with that openness and candour the Huse of Commons has a right to expect from the Goverment of the day. The Government has, I admit, asled the House for un usually large estimates ; but I lo not think they are larger than circumstances require and they prove a de termination on the part of her Majety's Government to act in the same spirit as the late Minitry. (Hear, hear.) It is the first duty of the Governmentof the day, as I believe it is the anxious desire of the cantry, to maintain the navy in a perfectly efficient conditin. There is, no doubt, I a great increase in the estimates, 6 compared with former years ; but I am willing to believe on the authority of the noble lord, that they are not largerthan the necessity of the case requires. The great expondiure is of course caused by the large amount of men caller for, and by the efforts made to increase the number of our ships. I am ex tremely glad to see by the return which was this morning put into our hands by the Admiraty, that the programme which I submitted to the House ayear ago, on the part of the late Government, has been !ssentially carried out. (Hear.) It will be in the recollectioi of the committee that in the programmeof last year I announced the intention of the then Government to add 15 toour line-of-battle ships, thereby increasing the number of effective screw line-of battle ships from 33 to 48. I see )), the return before me that that programme has been exactly carried out during the year. (Cheers.) My noble Merl has stated that a con siderable number more are to be wiled during the ensuing year; that we are to have at least 1 lidditional line-of-battle ships, which will raise the number from 48 to 59. (Hear.) This leads me to an inquiry of some importance, and that is whether the present Board of Admtalty has arrived at any decision as to the number of line-of-tattle ships they propose ultimately to have. (Hear.) Thi: is a point to which I know the noble lord the Secretary d the Admiralty has de • voted much attention. He has eepeatedly expressed the opinion in this house that we shoull give up the building of line-of-battle ships, that line-of-battle ships are compara tively useless, and that we should devote our attention to the building of other classes of ships. I could not concur with the noble lord in the views he'thus expressed. I never would be a party to any change of that kind, till we had fully established the proper superiority of England in line-of battle ships to all the other nations of Europe. (Hear.) But I may state that, so far as the late Board of Admiralty had considered this subject, we had—l will not say definitely arrived at the conclusion—but had entertained the opinion that if this country possessed 60 efficient screw line-of •battle ships, it would bo so far satisfactory as to enable us to pause and deal with this great question. (Hear.) My noble friend and all who are conversant with the subject will admit that there is strong reason to suppose we are approaching a time when it will become a question how far these line-of-battle ships are the most effective ships of the navy. Why, we have heard this daytfro in my noble friend, as part of the plans of the late Government, carried out by the present Government, of the building of such ships as the Mersey and the Orlando on a system which introduces a new element into this question —ships of the same tonnage as the largest in the navy, and carrying not a great number of guns, but guns of the greatest power and calibre, and forming very formidable armaments. (Hear.) Then we have changes going on in the manufacture of ordnance, and the construction of Armstrong guns, all which fairly raise the question as to the limits within which we should confine the building of line-of battle ships. (Hear.) I hope, however, that I shall not be misunderstood. De not let us pause till we have fully esta blished the superiority of this country in that description of ships. At the same time bearing in mind the great ex pense of building these ships, let us consider what will be the probable effect of the changes to which I have adverted. I should like to know, therefore, how far the Government are now laying down new ships of that class, and whether they have adopted any limit at which they may pause, and wait to see what the effects of the changes going on really are. (Hear, hear.) Last year I promised, it will be recol lected, nine screw frigates—five new, and four conversions —and I am glad to see that the premise I held out is so nearly fulfilled. Having made these remsrks on the build ing of ships, allow me to say a few w or d s on th a t h eav y item which was the principal cause of the excess el outlay last year—the addition of men. I stated last year that wo proposed an addition of 3,000 men; and subsequently we brought down supplementary estimates for 10,000 men and marines. This was a iarge addition ; but the noble lord has announced a still further addition, and I am bound to as sume that the proposal is made by the Government in con sequence of the strong Opinion they entertain of its neces sity. lam therefore not disposed to make any complaint on the score of that addition. (Hear, hear.) lam glad to find that the Admiralty have not l os t s i g ht o f th e recom mendation of the commissioners to lock up a certain num ber of men in our ports. My noble friend brought some thing like a charge against me with regard to the masters of the navy. He alluded to what I had done with regard to certain officers, but said I had overlooked the masters and other classes. (Hear, hear.) That is not the case, for the late Government had it in contemplation to deal with the masters and those other classes to which ho re ferred, and were only prevented carrying out their inten tions by circumstances which they could not control. I did not clearly understand what fell from my noble friend as to the office of the Controller of the Navy. Is there to be any change in the arrangements of that office. [Lord C. PAGET—lnstructions are to be given of a more direct character for its regulation.] lam happy to hear that the attention of the noble lord has been directed to this subject, as when in office I contemplated considerable changes in this department; and whatever the alterations now proposed may be, I should like to have more definite information regarding them. I was also glad to hear what the noble lord said with regard to apprentices in our dockyards. I trust that what he proposes will have the effect of improv ing this class of workmen, and checking that tendency to political jobbery that has been under all Governments a source of great complaint and annoyance, and which I did all in my power to suppress. (Hear, hear.) The evil com plained of is a very serious one, and I hope the regulations in regard to apprentices will go a great way to check it. (Rear, hear.) I believe it is quite indispensable that this country should, within a very short period, embark in a large expenditure for the improvement of our dockyards. I am convinced that you will bo unable to keep up the navy, with due regard to economy and to the interests of the coun try, unless your dockyards are made more efficient than they are at present. (Hear, hear.) For instance, take Chatham— Lord C. PAGET—We are taking .ClO,OOO with that view for Chatham. Sir J. PAKINGTON—My noble friend surely does not mean to say that £lO,OOO will be anything like sufficient for the purpose at Chatham. lie only takes that sum to con tinue and carry out a previous arrangement, on which a con siderable amount has already been expended, and to complete which a very much larger sum is required. If you intend to make Chatham a dockyard such as it ought to be, you must make up your minds to a much larger outlay. (Hear, hear.) It only remains for me to allude to the two last subjects to which my noble friend adverted—namely, the pensions for the widows of warrant officers and the re tirement of senior officers in the navy. With regard to warrant officers' widow, I always thought it most desirable to grant such pensions, but I was not so successfulin carry ing out my views in that respect as my noble friend has been, and I congratulate him on achieving a success which I was unable to attain. 'With respect to the retirement of officers, that is a subject to which I am glad to hoar the pre sent Board of Admiralty have directed attention. There was no subject on which I felt more strongly when I left the Board than the absolute necessity of adopting some im preyed mode of retirement, so as t o remove th a t c h ec k to promotion which has always been a matter of just com plaint. (Hear, hear.) I ens glad that the present Board have directed their attention to the subject, and I shall wait with some anxiety to hear any explanation of their plan. I will only add that in following my noble friend it affords me much satisfaction to be able to speak in the tone in which I have done. (Hear, hear.) Sir C. NAPIER was glad to hear the noble lord (Lord C. Paget) not only give an exact statement of our own navy, but also of those of France and Russia. He had shown that France had 244 vessels of every description ready for sea; Russia, 235 ; and England, '234. He had also told the com mittee that France could man the whole of her ships with her reserves whenever she thought proper, and he (Sir C. Napier) had seen it stated in a Paris newspaper that France had not less than 90,000 men on whom she could at any time lay hands. Russia had always her fleet manned ; Eng land alone could not man her fleet. He had worked for 20 years in and out of that house, in order to see the navy placed on a proper footing. (Hear, hear.) He had been called an alarmist and laughed at for many years on that account ; but the country had at length adopted his views and forced the present Government, as it did the last, to proceed in putting the navy in a proper condition. With respect to the practice of conversion, he agreed with the late First Lord that ships could be converted with advantage. The Neptune, the Nilson, and others, which had been converted, had turned out remarkably fine . ships. He could not, however, agree in the propriety o f cutting a hole in the stern of the ship without lengthening her. In the case of such ships as the Edinburgh and the Ajax, that course had been found by experience not to an swer. They were neither fit to sail nor to steam. They were, in fact, altogether unfit to go to sea, and if they got on a lee shore nothing on earth could save them. The navy estimates were certainly very large, but he submitted the country would get the value of their money. We never had seen the navy, in respect to ships, in a better position than it was at present. But still the country must expect to lay its account for the building of a new navy. Our great ally was determined to have iron ships. Between him and us it had become a matter of the longest purse, and the question was, where were we to stop ? We had got ships, but what use were they so long as . tve had not m en ? It was melan choly to thi n k th a t iu this great maritime nation wo could not raise an adequate reserve of seamen for the navy. There must be some 'Season why the navy was so unpopular, and Parliament must try to get at the root of it. lie could not conceive why we should not have more marines, and keep them on shore, with the exception of about 100 on hoard each ship. A reserve fur the navy must be found somewhere or other, and as there was an enormous number of fishermen and of men whose occupation was looking out for wrecks along our shores, lie should advocate the expediency of having recourse to a system of ballot in our maritime towns, which should include the inhabitants of those districts. The system under which men who had never done a single stroke of work for the Queen were allowed to put down their names on the reserve list, and while at liberty to go where they pleased receive £6 a-year, was, he thought, by no means a good one to secure the object we had in view. The course which lie should pursue would be to leave to every seaman when his ship was paid off the option of beingplaced in the re serve or not as he might think proper, alio wing him to count two years towards his pension for every three years service. At present the Admiralty had no means of knowing what men entitled to pensions had refused to take them. The Admi ralty ought to know those men, and if it could once be made known that 4,000 men had entered the reserve, the intelli gence would spread throughout the merchant service, and the reserve would soon be tilled up. If the force could not be filled up with Di, then a calculation must be made whether it would not be cheaper with a larger sum than the maintenance of a large force at sea. Another point which ho must mention related to the Channel fleet, which the Admiralty did not seem to know how to manage when they got it. Some time since there was mutiny, or something liko It. On board the Liffey there was a disturbance, shot rolled about, mess traps brok en, and other disorders. In that case the Admiralty did Wit take proper steps, but sim ply gave way, and tll6 man gained their point. Something of the sin eat happened ) , vaY4 the Caesar on a ques tion of leave. The complaint was, he thought, ft just one. When ships were fitting out in harbour there was plenty of leave, but now whenever a ship was out of harbour she was sent to Portland, while the drills went on, a period most irksome to the men, and when the utmost indulgence should be granted. In that way the disturbance arose on board the Caesar, and the Admiralty, instead of sending the squadron to sea, and sending the Cesar to the West Indies, allowed the men to remain the victors. In the Mediter ranean, on board the flagship Marlborough, there was also a disturbance, and that was passed over. Then came the Princess Royal, the worst case of all. She came from the Mediterraneen, and, according to a very proper arrange ment, another ship was ready to which the crew was to be transferred ; but there were three classes of men on board —the bounty men and the continuous service men, upon whom the Admiralty had a claim, and those who had en tered generally, upon whom they had no claim. When the captain left the ship the men cried out, " Pay off," and then the Admiralty ought to have had a member of the Board down to inquire into the matter, but, instead of doing so, they gave way. The continuous service men and the bounty men should have been sent on board the Queen, and the others should have been required to return their stores, which would have occupied them for three weeks, and then they should have been told that their services were not required further. Then, when there was a ship launch, and the Queen came down, the men ought to have had leave from Saturday to Monday, but instead of that one-half had leave and the rest had not. That, of course, created dissa tisfaction, and a cry of " All or none." The Admiral very properly said " None," but unluckily the liberty men had been landed and were taken back from the dockyard gates. , It was an error to order those men back, although he Would not say whose error it was. He must say, to the credit of the seamen, that it was not true that they had deserted in great numbers after taking the bounty, for he had seen a return showing that since bounty was given desertions had been fewer than before. Everyone knew how easy it was for sailors to desert, but he did not think the Admiralty took proper means to punish desertion. He would punish every man, even with transportation, who took the bounty not intending to remain in the service. There was another evil in the service in respect to leave. When he was in Lisbon harbour, he found that no leave was ever given there, but he granted leave to the men to go on shore. The men got drunk and made rows, and complaints were made to him, and he got the police of Lisbon to take up every drunken English sailor and put him into prison, the consequence of which was, that all complaints soon ceased. If the same thing were done for a short time, it would soon put an end to such misconduct. It might be said this could not be done in England, but they could station a guard ship close to where the men landed, warn them, and if they broke their leave or behaved ill place them on board as prisoners. There need be no difficulty in giving men leave, and getting rid of those irregularities which were subversive of all discipline. The men would thus also be made much more comfortable and happy than they were at present. There was another point to which he wished to advert. If a ship were paid off with the crow, it was attended with great expense; but if they were trans ferred to another ship directly, and the ship turned over to the superintendent of the dockyard to return her stores, the whole might be effected with much regularity and economy. He trusted the Admiralty would take steps to remedy all the evils he had pointed out ; especially let them see that I the men had leave atall times in moderation, and that they were punished if they behaved improperly—imprisoned if they got drunk on shore and behaved in a disorderly man ner. A great deal had lately been done for seamen in giv•• ing them their traps, allotments, and paying them once a moath, and they might treat as severely as they pleased those who wore guilty of breaches of discipline if they only did thorn justice. In the Baltic a disturbance broke out on board one of the ships of the fleet. He desired an inquiry to be made to see if there were any grievances, and, if so, that they should be redressed. Grievances were found to exist : they were redressed, and the evil did not extend as it might have done, to other ships in the fleet. He had laboured long to have the money put on a proper footing, and he would never rest satisfied till it was properly manned, and till the men . got redress of every evil they had any:reason. to complain of. They could not now be treated as they formerly were. The men were more enlightened, and they expected more indulgence. (Hear, from Mr. Williams.) The hon. member for Lambeth may cry " Hear," as if ho wanted popularity; but he would not put an eial to flogging for all that. He would flog but he would flog in a proper manner. (A laugh.) If a man behaved ill, he would try him by court-martial and punish him. Me was not afraid to say so. The men themselves would not live in a ship if there was no discipline. A ship wouldbe a hell upon earth without discipline, and if the hon. member for Lambeth succeded in abolishing corporal punishments in the navy to morrow he would not get the thanks of the men. (Hear.) Sir J. ELPHIN STONE thanked the noble lord for his clear and business-like statement, which he had heard with peculiar pleasure. With regard to the pensions to warrant officers' widows, ho wished to know whether the arrange ment was to be retrospective as recommended by the naval commission. If not, ho should never suspend his agitation till that grievance was redressed. The present allowance as outfit for a petty officer when raised to a warrant officer was £3O, but was quite inadequate, and there was often found great difficulty in getting proper men to come forward for the warrant, because pensions were taken away from their widows. 'With regard to boys, the commission recom mended that schoolshipa should be established at all the principal commercial ports. Provision was to be made for 2,400 boys, besides those who came forward voluntarily to be afterwards absorbed into the mercantile and Royal ma rine. He found no vote taken for school ships, and he wanted to know what was the intention of the Government in that respect. He had heard from various ports, such as Hall, Greenock, Aberdeen, and Dundee, that these school ships were looked for with great interest, and there was con siderable disappointment that the recommendation of the commission had not been carried into effect. When the boys went on board ship, a namber of them were employed as officers' servants. He objected to that, as being a most prejudicial employment for boys ; under such a system they became neither good seamen nor good servants. (Hear.) There was another point. In the Marine Artillery ser geants were paid 3d. a day less than in the Royal Artil lery. He thought the pay should be equalized. Tho pay of captains of men-of-war was also inadequate : they could not maintain their position without trenching on their pri vate ai,eme The number of midshipmen in tho service was utterly insufficient, and in many of the vessels in which young men entering the service were expected to qualify themselves for passing a highcompotitive examination there were no naval instructors. The establishment of the naval reserve had not been attended with the success that could have been wished. Various causes had contributed to this result. The bounty had operated greatly against the re serve, as had also the disturbance in the Princess Royal. Again, the Admiralty had not taken the proper stops for making the advantages of service in the reserve sufficiently known. They should take a loaf out of tho Horse Guards book, and employ active petty officers at the different ports, in the same way as recruiting sergeants were now employed on behalf of the army. In a town like Portsmouth it might be expected that a regular office for the enlistment of sea men would be open; yet hon. gentlemen would be sur prised to hear that the only place where anything of the kind was conducted was the house of Mrs. Eliza Wainer, a woman who understood where sailors were to be found and what they looked fur. (A. laugh.) Proper dockyard ac commodation ought to be provided for our skips. His be lief was that if the Princess Royal had had a basin to go into the disturbance on board that vessel would never have occurred. Mr. WHITBREAD said that, however carefully the Admiralty might prepare its programme, it was necessary to bear in mind that it was liable to derangement from many disturbing causes. It was impossible to fix upon a stan dard for our force, and say that that was the proper amount of naval strength for this country to keep up. That force must always depend upon what was done by other coun tries; and it was only by watching the growth of foreign navies—whether in line-of-battle ships, frigates, or iron ships—that we could arrive at any just estimate of our own. requirements. With regard to the duties of the Comptrol ler of the Navy, changes were now in progress in his office, and when those changes were completed there would be no hesitation in furnishing the information which the right hon. baronet desired. The dockyards would be kept in a proper state of repair with the sum taken in the present estimates, although largo works, which would certainly have to be undertaken some time or other, had been post poned in the different yards. The right hon. baronet would be glad to learn that the Government had faced the somewhat difficult question connected with Chatham. It was in contemplation to extend that yard, and the Board, having considered the deficiency of accom modation in the eastern arsenal and the dockyard, had come to the conclusion—looking to the natural disadvantages of Sheerness, and to the objections, in a military point of view, to the Isle of Grays—that St. Mary's Island was the only direction in which the dockyard accommodation should be enlarged. A great deal of the unhappy feeling excited in the case of the Princess Royal had arisen from the fact that the officers were in the habit of obtaining leave when the ship was paid off, while th e men were res tricted. The offi cers had now been placed on the same footing as the men in this respect, and not a murmur had been heard in the ease of any of the ships that had since been paid off. He con curred fully in the opinions of the hon. baronet (Sir J. D. Biphinstone) as to the value of a reserve force, and he hoped that by carefully studying the feelings and the interests of the men mach would in time be done to make the service popular and respected. (Hear.) Sir J. PAKINGTON, in explanation, said he did not in tend to suggest that there should be or could be anything like a permanent standard of line-of-battle ships. But he thought there was a point at which, our navy having at. tabled to a position of sufficient superiority, it would be well to pause in regard to laying down new line-of-battle ships until the Admiralty had ascertained the effect of the great charges effected lately in naval science. (Hear.) Mr. W. WILLIAMS moved that the Chairman report progress. (" Oh 1") Lord P ALM E RSTON hoped that his hon. friend would not press his motion, the universal wish of the committee apparently being that some votes should be taken. (Hear.) Mr. WILLIAMS would withdraw his motion on the un derstanding that no more speeches were to be made. (A. laugh.) Admiral WALCOTT thanked the noble lord (C. Paget) for his perspicuous statement and the honesty of purpose by which it was characterised, and said he derived ad ditional satisfaction in recognising in the gallant officer one of his professional brethren and an ornament to the service. (Hear.) He (Admiral-Walcott) fully admitted the prudence of the measure taken to maintain our navy in perfect strength and efficiency. Vigour disarmed hos tility and deterred a would-be opponent from breaking the peace, whereas a timid policy only encouraged aggres sion. (Hear.) Last year he recommended the noble lord to give the Surveyor of the Navy a higher position in the service by making him an honorary member of the Board. This change would entail no additional expense on the country, and would enable the surveyor to give his opinions with much greater freedom and effect than at present. He also suggested that there were occasions when it would be to the benefit of the service that a Board should be consti tuted, consisting of the most eminent men in every branch of naval architecture, to meet from time to time and review the suggestions made for the improvement of ship-building by those who made it their study. With regard to the personnel of the navy, it was only right that the officers should be assured of certain rewards for the exhibition ofd zeal and the perfect acquirement of professional knowledge, while every promise made to the men should be rigidly adhered to. Ho hoped he was to understand that the 2,000 boys mentioned by the noble lord were to be brought into the service annually (" Hear," from Lord C. Pag et) ; but two ships were not su ffi c i en t f or th em . No more than 600 boys ought to be on board the same vessel. Had his suggestions upon the service of boys been followed some years ago, the present want of sailors would not have been experienced. As to the relative strength of the Russian and Punch navies, to which allusion had boon made, it was of the highest importance, looking to the enormous extent of the commerce, the remoteness of many of our most valuable dependencies, the uncertainty of our political relations, and the uncertainty also of peace, that our own navy should be kept in the mist efficient state, for our naval supremacy was a matter of life and death to this country. With regard to the disturbances on board the Princess Royal, he defended the conduct of Admiral Bowles, than whom there was not in the profession a man lanimated by mo re ki n dl y sen ti men t s , o f greater experience, gild more reliable j u d gmen t, an d ens w h o h a d con t r ibuted m ore largely in time and in money to forwari every in stitution likely to benefit the service. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BENTINCE expressed his cmcurrence in the well merited tribute which had been paid to the able statement of the noble Secretary to the Admiralty, and he was very glad to find the estimates such as to afford the hope that the navy was about to be placed on the footing it ought to be. his noble friend said that there was an impression that the coun try did not get the lull value for the money expende t, Ite believed that impression to be correct; and he was ofopinion that the circumstance was owing to the system on which the Board of Admiralty was constructed. Ills noble friend ad verted to a time when it might be possible to reduce the ex penditure for the navy, but, considering the state of affairs in Europe, he looked forward to au incre ise rather than reduc tion of expense. Ile wished t.) know what steps had been taken to supply the deficiency of naval hvtructors on board' line-of-battle ships in commission. • General UPTON suggested that there should be an entry of boys in the interior as well as at the poris. Colonel DICKSON inquired whether there were no means by which the ships of the Royal navy might be wade service able for the conveyance of troops. Lord C. PAGET said arrangements were made for the sup ply of chaplains and naval instructors combined. The entry of boys was not confine.' to the coast, and the Admir illy would be very glad to receive them front the in:erior. With respect to the conveyance of troops, men-of-war might be used for that purpose, but the crews must first of all be trained to discipline. Mr. LINDSAY, thinking that the whole policy of the in crease in the estimates should be fully discussed, moved that the Chairman report progress ; but, on an appeal from Mr. S. j HERBERT, subsequentiy withdrew the motion. The vote was then agreed to, as were also the following*: £3,476,757, for the wages of seamen and marines. X 1,458,087, for victuals. „ _. . ..-.-..... The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the House re sumed. PROBATE AND ADMINISTRATION (INDIA) BILL. This Bill was read the third time and passed. LAW OF PROPERTY BILL. This Bill was read the second time. The House adjourned a half-past 12 o'clock. THE LATE SIR TrILLLim NAPIER. The death of a good soldier and a great historian Cannot be allowed to pass without special record. Had William Francis Patrick Napier been simply a titled survivor of the Peninsular war, he would have figured with some Rote in the obituary of the year, but his service in the field, gallant as it was, has been eclipsed by his labours in the study, and ho now stands, and will stand for ages, in the eyes of his countrymen as the chronicler of their country's greatest exploits. This literary celebrity, the controversies by which it was attended, and the renown concurrently acquired by other mem bers of the family, have served to identify the name of Napier with the military glories of England, and to familiarise the minds of thousands with that prominent character whose departure from the scene is this day announced. Despite the remoteness which seems now to characterise the figures of the great Duke's genera tion, Sir William Napier was not of very advanced age. Though he entered the army in the last cen tury, and fought his last fight almost 50 years ago, he was only 74 when he was overtaken by death. In his days men began work early. The first of his nine commissions found him a lad of fourteen, and he was but little over twenty when he went to that great war which he afterwards undertook to describe. His extraction is remarkable enough to deserve some mention, for one of his grandfathers was actually the grandson of King Charles 11., and the other succeeded to the family title while Marl borough was conducting the campaign of Ramifies. In that year. 1706, a certain Francis Scott became Lord Napier. By a first marriage hs. produced a line of sons, from one of whom descended the pre sent Admiral Sir Charles Napier ; by a second marriage he had a son named George. This George, in the year 1781, took to wife the Lady Sarah, daughter of the second Duke of Richmond, great-granddaughter of the Second Charles, and previously the wife of Sir Thomas Bunbury. From that union there issued a progeny of heroes, of whom William was the third. Shortly after the young ensign's first appoint ment, certain military measures were adopted by the Government, which produced results of an ex traordinary and probably unexpected kind. The rupture of the peace of Amiens, and the renewal of hostilities with France, had been signalised by a menace of invasion on the part of Napoleon, more overt and more formidable than any which had preceded. The country was reasonably alarmed, and took steps for its defence by building Martell° towers along the south-eastern coast, and cutting the Royal Military Canal between Folkestone and Hythe. Fortunately, something else was done too. On the heights above Sandgate, on the very place where the Shorncliffo huts now stand, a small army of observation was stationed, under the command of Sir John Moore, and there, in a sort cf perma nent camp, of which the vestiges remained till the other day, this force was trained and exerci•ted by that able general, until the military genius of the natio* acquired a development altogether new. Among the tactical reforms introduced was one di rected to the improvement of light infantry as a de sirable arm of the service, and certain regiments in particular were selected as the objects of this special instruction. When, therefore, after the lapse of a year or two the thunder-cloud on the heights of Boulogne had been scattered, and the forces of Eng land rendered available for foreign campaigns, Sir John Moore's picked corps appeared brigaded to gether in a distinct division. At first, perhaps, no great importance was attached to the phenomenon, though there must have been something striking even in the aspect of these battalions, for Larpent, when noting in his diary the arrival of troops in the Peninsula, speaks particularly of a " light corps" just come—" very fine; much thought of by the ladies." After a very short time, however, this " Light Division," with its constituent regi ments, the 43d, the 52d, and the 95th, acquired and maintained such incomparable renown as to attract the admiration of Eurepc. Among all the divisions of the Peninsular army famous though they were—this was the most distin guished; and in this, happily for himself and for his History, young Napier served. Exchanges w ere not so common in those days as a t p resent, and it is with the Light Division, and with the 43d Regi met of Foot, that Sir William's active services are almost exclusively identified. The traces of this intimrte conneciion are visible in every page of his " Ilistory of tb• 'War," and one of the principal charms, indeed, of the narrative arises from the singular circumstantiality and vividness with which every movement of this celebrated force is depicted. Readers of all classes will remember the painting of the story as the 95th—" Barnard's swarthy vete rans"—are brought into battle, or when the 43d, not only in a mass but by companies, and even by men, are ranged upon the field ; though the full fervour of the historians's recollections seems to have been reserved for the 52d, of which even in his latest volume he speaks as " a regiment never surpassed in arms since arms were first borne by men." If we say that the active service of Sir William Napier was commensurate with the services of the Light Division in the Peninsula, we shall have said quite enough to define and establish his claims as a . working soldier. It is true that he was in the ex pedition to Copenhagen in 1807, and that he was not on the retired list in 1815, but the Peninsula is the sphere of his duty and his experience ; nor did he as an effective member of his profession ever overstep tho capacity of a regimental officer. At first his promotion was rapid ; but, though he entered the war a captain, he left it only a lieut.- colonel, and it was with this rank alone, and upon the half-pay establishment of the 43d Foot, that he made his first appearance before the public in the new character of a military historian. At what period of his career, or with what in ducements he originally conceived the design which he executed so worthily we cannot say, but from 1824 to 1840 he was unremittingly engaged, as he himself informs us, upon the History of the Pen insular War." That history had not yet been satisfactorily written. The war itself, disparaged at first, and but insu ffi ciently app reciated even a fter its final triumphs, invited a better pen than it had found. The great Duke once entertained the idea of becoming the historian of his own campaigns, or, at any rate, bequeathing the materials to his e xecutors. Sir George Murray also thought of entering the field, but Col. Napier advanced beyond these preliminary conceptions. He undertook the task, and accomplished it—with what success Europe now knows. The merit of this remarkable work is best and most comprehen sively expressed in the single fact of its popularity and its fame ; for seldom has a book been com menced with less immediate promise of c'reulation or favour. The author had a good military con nection, but he enjoyed as yet no literary position, and so far was he from being recognised as the man • for the task that a certain officer of rank on whom he waited for information told him his production would only be an ephemeral affair, and that elabo rate plans would be thrown away upon it. The spirit, moreover, or as we may say the bias of the work was directly opposed to the opinions of those times. It offended Englishmen, for it assailed the still dominant poll^y of Toryism, and conceded in finitely more credit to Napoli on, to his system, and to his troops than the prejudices of the country had yet allowed. It offended Spaniards, for it.brushed away the brag of the nation, and reduced the en thusiasm and efforts of the patriot armies to dimen sions more consistent with fact. " I cared not," avowed the historian in his very preface, " to swell my work with apocryphal matter, and neglected the thousand winding currents of Spanish warfare to follow that mighty stream of nigHalt battle which burst the barriers of the Pvieru.cs, and left deep traces of its fury on the soil of France." Frenchmen it might possibly conciliate, for it re- corded their military merits sik ith uncommon can dour, but to no other sympathies did it seem ad dressed ; and, above all, while depicting the war and its•glories in unprecedented co:ours, it im peached the policy out of which the contest bad arisen, and attacked the spirit in which it was conducted. Opinions like these brought on the author's head a perfect storm of obloquy, which, with the family genius for improving a contro versy, he contrived rather to aggravate than as suage. He was accused not only of professional incapacity under a thousand forms, but of poli tical and almost moral heresies without number, Among other imputations, he, the grandson o: peer and the great-great-grandson of a King, found himself charged with a malignant and democratic hostility to aristocratic birth—an attack which he quietly repelled by observing that he was at least as nobly connected as the people he was said to be decr3 ing. It can hardly be denied that the " History of the Peninsular War" did really present indications of a distinct, and for those tirnes an unusual. bias. Its opening sentence, for example, might almost have figured in a certain, pamphlet of Mr. Cobden, and its comparative delineations of French and English systems might possibly have been considered unnational, as nationality had been recently under- stood. But so to regard the work was to be blind to its real import and character ; nor was the in- stinctive acuteness of the public long in discovering the truth. However the author might be infected with the heresy of political opposition, his charac- teristic dedication of his work to the Duke, and the genuine sentiments with which its every page was underlaid, soon proved that its real and sole object was to erect a fitting monutnent of British glory as achieved by British arms. That was the aim of the historian, and as the development of the history showed it gradually and triumphantly at tained, the angry clamours of the Strangfords, the Beresfords, and the Percevals were left to die unheededly away. Against the current of popular and political prejudice, the work forced its way by its intrinsic fascinations to the summit of public favour. It is not, in reality, either constructed composed on a popular model. It is by no means easy reading, and, though not a purely military history, is technical in its details and severe in its style. It is a work which at first sight would be thought likely to commend itself to ordinary readers desirous of learning how the great war in the Penin sula was fought, .and yet, though these obstacles were to be encountered on the threshold, and though the ground had been occupied by . favourite and attractive writers, the supra- macy of Napier's History soon became incon- testable. The truth is, bes'cies the genuine nationality of its object and its tone, there was a dignity in the treatment and a Hying verity in the descriptions which led the mind un resistingly captive. Never before had such scenes been portrayed, nor with such wonderful colouring. As event after event was unfolded in the panorama, not only the divisions and the brigades, but the very regiments and regimental officers of the Peninsular army became familiarised to the public eye. Marches, combats, and battles came out upon the canvas with the fidelity of photographs. while the touches by which the effect was produced bespoke, not the ingenuities of historic art, but the involun tary suggestions of actual memory. The shrillness of Crawfurd's scream at Busaco as he ordt rod the Light Division to charge was probably ringing in I the author's ears as he wrote ; and the whole scene upon the Coa, with the little drummer boy beating the charge, the French officer, " in a splendid uni form," leaping on the lnidge, and the surgeon tend ing the wounded in the midst of the fire, must have risen before his eyes as he drew it. For the sake of painting like this—for the take of rn eloquence unknown before, anal devoted unreservedly to the recompense of British valour, people readily for;ave the prepossessions or deficiencies of the work. If its spirit was haughty, it was also so national and so public that the very haughtiness was becoming; if its style trenched upon bombast, such loftiness of language did but correspond with the grandeur and heroism of the deeds described ; and when the magnificence of its diction culminated into sublimity in the stories of Albuera and Badajez, every reader felt that the theme and the treatment were consis tent with each other. The completion of this extraordinary work not only established Col. Napier's fame as an authof, but contributed probably, in conjunction with the brilliant services of his brother Charles, to improve even his professional position. He had indeed earned in the fair discharge of military duty all the promotien, which now overtook him, for he had borne an active and distinguished part throughout a protracted war, and was justly entitled to the gradual advancement reserved for its survivors. Still, it can hardly be doubted that the brother of Sir Charles Napier and the historian of the Peninsular war commanded a greater respect than would have been paid to the half pay officer of the 43d, and when the red riband of the Bath and the colonelcy of a regiment was added to the promotions arriving by seniority the public was gratified at the recognitions evinced. Yet Sir William Napier remained Napier still, and clashed against the opinions of men as rudely in his later as in his earlier days. As the Light Division ac counts for one period of his life, and his " History" for a second, so his advocacy of Sir Charles Napier's excellence in every capacity may be taken for the business of a third. The spirit of the family has been uniformly clannish, in excess even of the Scottish standard, but Sir -William's devotion to the reputation of his brother is almost without a parallel. On this point he would brook in India, in at any hands. In the lo nian Islands, a he in the command of a home district —wherever whatever Sir Charles Napier was stati he hi a s n to d ri no f the war did ; his acts were right. in the Peninsula ov en resumed his pen, for his brother's sake, to wri te the " Conquest of Sande," o l n ' d' and so wholly m ust his heart have been in the task that his alleged preference of this work to his g rea t ach i evemen t is not quite incredible. Even w h en the life and ser vices of Sir Charles had terminated together,rave, Si r William still stood champion over his g and at the most critical period of Indian debates his chief anxiety was •for the reputation of his brother, which in these discussions he thought might possibly be impugned. How little measure he observed in the controversies which this devo , lion provoked—bow repulsively he treated the consideration which all were ready to bestow we need not stop to remark. His labours and his quarrels are now ended, and as Sir Charles's death proved the signal for the universal oblivion of his faults, and the unqualified recognition of his vir tues, so with the life of Sir William will all those acrimonies cease which his intractable pen was but too apt to occasion. The public will forget the controversialist, or remember hint only to reflect that even in the least fortunate of) tis encounters he never proposed to himself an unio orthy aim. The image which will remain impret sed upon its me mory is that of a noble soldier w. ho did his duty in one of England's greatest wars, and who after , wards redoubled this service b, raising for h i s country an imperishable monum' 3nt of the glory she . had acquired.-7intes. Poi= hies But city. ,rup uck- him ugh Peel me of e, an