The Sun. — London, England, 1829-03-06 00:00:00

• L.O GTIQUI W gne ,i:e 1,1,1 .1 •. tail PO so in what I urn about to submit, less from a\ty Personal object of vindicating the measure 'than from at 'tempting to satisfy the great hotly of 'ths,t people, that there is more evil to be apprehended 'from abandoning di? goestirm than from bringing it !nrward, and this fact has 4tirtriisql the force hf demer'itration to my own mind. Slr, I cannot thiti; rnntinuing the present system o' 'exclusion in Ireleeid, flume who urge the'responsit!ility q.. 1 a ineassire Must determine to what extent t i aey 'will push , c4ert,in principles, and if th e y lt - re !ta't'i:fied 4!• c iwt pushing those principles to ja 4:errt,titt extent An. end isgerin.; the esti!, ,, slvitent 'they Wish to pre ,tt-v-, it is n. , t inconsistent with toe . cettrse they have pur .l,l, h u t i t is their linty, to it;t•-ise measures not exactly consonant in tlm.e. they ye here•of,,re urged.— ( hear.)—Sir t 1 ant a4,mit to addre,s an I,undei upoet;ints—opon a practical view of this I 01.11 net seeieg to enter into env slieewetion envoi abetract pesrote--hots any disquieitiee 1st -reek upon the theoelee (If facts ; but I em etsing to start. the gtotresde v i ten which I, as a Wnister of 'the Ceceen, feel ' , soma to advise, rather than a cerithmea reeittence to the eat'. rtainine of this question, a deliiietette consideration of iv. Sir, the outline of my argfineteet is this—that we ar',•e placed in a position in wltieh we cannot remain— ( Hear, hear, hear )—in a position in which it is 0:1 , slew. that something reenst he dome—(hear, hear' —that we ronnot rem lin stationary—that there that de gree of oral in divided ceuncile and Aieunited cabinets th , t is no loneer to he telerstret t l.—(Great cheers.)_ Tiat is my fire: peeitiortse--(Hear, hear.)---,1 do not is,y at p,eseot what 14 tie. 1 t tom done under Teich cir cumstances. 3ly next position is, supposing that is established, and suppesing it to he admitted that a united Goverronent must be formed, my next position is that Government will have the choice of one of tee, Catlr 4 ( 4 i - ot action—that they must either advanee or recede --(hssar, hear, hear,)—.that they roues either grant further political concessions, or That they must retract those whic7 , have already been granted ; that they must either remove those barriers which obstruct the flow of the waters which ere pressing upon them, or they enwst roll hack the torrent which has been setting in upon them for the last forty yeere.eo-(Hear.)— I am asked what new light has broken in Upon rte now? Ts saw it in 1525, an,' I then advised a course different to what I advised before. lam told it is net a view which the Melees of Lords and Commons took before, and because those difference's rusted on farmer occasions, there is no reason why the same should not exist now. Why, Sir, is the existence of politica always the same ? Does it fellow 'that beeline Parliament may have been divided for five years, that therefore it is to continuee° for 20 or 30 years? Ave three political events like numbers in mathematics, 'or like moral truisms, without change ? is it not possible ;that those evils which may he durable far ten years, may 67 their continuance and intensity, force on a change? 'gut, Sir, so far as my personal course is con trssted, allow me to say, that in the year 1925, when L being Minister for the Home Department, was in a minority on the Catholic Question, I felt this at least, that as a Minister I tnthi not remain eh:ISO - eel with the management of Irish affairs with a minority on the question that had the most impatant relations to them. Sir, I did then seek to be relieved from the duties which had devolved odors me. I stated to Lord Liverpool that its my opinion the time was come when I ought to he relieved froth the eliaree of those iitTe is. I ' , AY°, further to state that it wis notified to me that my - retirement from office would have involved also .'ne retirement of Lord Liverpool and others, :or had I retired, I should have caused a diseolutien of Parliament. Sir, I hold its my hand proof of this fact.— I wish to be spared the pain of referring niyself to the let ters which passed ten the occasion ; but I will cemmuni rate them to any Hon. Gentleman who may wish to Fee them, The feet is as I have "tate! it. Ilad I retired at that time, my retirement would have determined the retire ment of Lord Liverpool, and the dissolution of the Govern ment. When I entered public life, it was under the Auspices of Lord Liverpool, and I could not bring myself to resolve upon =fig painful task of determinieg that Noble Lord's retirement from office by any act. of mine. Such, Sir, were the motives which at that period induced nie, neield against my inclination, to remain a Member of the Cabinet. A new Parliament was elected in 1826. In 1527 this House decided against considering the Catholic question; but in 1828, last year, it took a different view of the subject ; and although it slid not pass a Bill, it aereed to a Resolution favourable to the principle of adjust ;taunt. Jnilging by the present with reference to the past, I felt that this House had fairly expressed the sense of the people.--end that, being decidedly in favour of the claims, it followed that they meet, ere long, he conceded. Sir, it is A painful thing for any man to act in a way contrary to his preconceived opinions ; still more s-hen, in doing so, he eeeiratee himself front his friends, and exposes hitritelf to the charge of inconsistency. The events of the last six weeks may convince any one that this is no easy task. In the words of that magnificent passage of Dryden— " 'Tis said with ease, but, oli, how hardly try'd By haughty souie, to human honour ty'd ! 0 slierp eonvuleive pangs of agoineing pride !" (The Right Hon. Gentleman appeared for a few moment. to be much agitated, and the House rang with cries of " hear, hear, hear.")—When, Sir, I felt last year that the case was as I have stated it to be, I determined to take the course which I had wished to take in 18,25 ; but with this difference, that I intimated to the Noble Duke at the head of hie Majesty's Government, not ooly that I was anxious to retire from office, hut that I felt so strongly the current it; public opinion was setting in in favour of the Catholic Claims, that In whetecer situation I might find myself, I should not Consider myself ,justified in making aey further oppoeitien to those claims.—( Hear. hear. ) To that I afterwards added, that whatever privet,' and per eional ?sacrifice it might inflict upon me, I was prepared, after the events of tee last year, to submit to it, in the sup port of any measure which I might consider compatilde with the safety of the Protestant Establishment. Sir, my former communications te the House, I detailed the information which i poswesed reepeeting the present state of Leland. 1 attempted to sh. , w that in teat country so ciel intercourse wee poisoned by the state of thing, as re garding this question ; that family was eet against family. that the fountains of justice were rendered impure, and that the public tranquillity was disturbed. What, Sir, was the answer to all tine? That it was "an old story." That it was a repetition of facts with which we had been familiar fur twenty years, and therefore, that it atfortled no reason for a change tif policy. Why, Sir, because it is an old et iry—obecause it is a statement of evils which have continue! year after year to exist, that I have been indueed to undertake to bring before the House the mea sure which I aural~ presently propose. The circumstance of its twine " an tilt! story" may furnish Hon. Gentlemen with matter of sarcasm aeeinet me rersonally ; hut it is no way applicable against the ari;iimeot of the necessity of taking some step on the subject. That these evils have existed for twenty years is one of the points which lam must anxious to urge. It is one of the main point's on which I rest the merits of my case. I believe, Sir, that I now echo the sentiments of every reasonable man in the country, I believe that the universal voice of the Em pire supports me when I say that sotnething must be done. (Cheering.) I repeat it, Sir, something must be done. I ask the House to go back with inn to a remote period. I ask them to look at the Go vernments of this country for the last thirty-five yeare, and to see the bearing which this question has had upon those Governments---the distraction that it has caused, and the weakness which it has produced by having been suffered to remain as an open question—(Checre.)—l ask them to look at tie course pursued by the Parlia ments of this country with respect to this question, and to consider itsbearings upon the divisions of those Parliaments, its hearings also upon the Councils of the King—and the evil it has caused in all the deliberations upon the state of Ireland.—(Hear, hear, heac.)—When this is done, Sir, the House will agree with me, that something must be done—they will confirm my opinion that the Administration of Officers in Ireland should he carried on upon the same ptinciple as those of England.—(Great cheers.) With respect to the Govern meets of the country, this question has produced nothing hut dissension fir thirty-five years. (Cheers.) When Mr. Pitt took into his councils the Duke of Portland, Lord Fitzwilliam, and Mr. Windham, then there was disunion in the Cabinet. Lord Fitwilliam was appointed to the Go vernment of Ireland, professing as he did different opinions from those which governed the Cabinensnd from that period to this present there was nothing but disunion. lie left Ireland in 1794, and why?--on acconnt of the Catholic Question. Soon afterwards Mr. Pitt retired, and the Government war dissolved. What was the cause o f its diseolution ?—The Catholic Question.—(Cheering. )—ln 1804 Mr. Pitt resumed office ; in 1806 another Govern. most succeeded, which, in about eighteen months came to a termination, and what was the cause ? the difficulty of the Catholic Question. It also led to the disselistion of the Government of Lords Grenville and Grey in 1807, and in that year Mr. Perceval undertook to form a government decidedly opposed to Emancipation. Till his death resistance to the Catholic question was main tained ; but that resistance was not established on any permanent grounds, for Lord Castlereagh and Sir. Canning formed part of his administration, and were advocates for Catholic Emancipation, though they waived the then consideration of the question, owing Mr. Perceval died : it is asserted by some that if he had lived the Government opposed to concession !night still be continued ; but, Sir, 1 doubt that assertion.-- After his Government it is to be rememlasred that the re strictions upon the Regene.v etril'tti, and one month after that the Parlittaeft't 'expired, and the new Pa,lia• trient decided, by 'a majority of 139. to take the ques tion it't.O . etinsidefation. If Mr. Pereeval's Government had t*ta established upon principles of map:lined and perwa tient opposition. Lord Castlerea 4 h and Mr. Canning would never have been Members of his Cabinet. Since the year 1812, the Catholic Question has been a neutral question, each man being allowed to take his own course, and to vote tecoreling- to his own pleasure upon it. During the course of that time the Cabinet hoi been tea*try rtV ided 1111,1 the question. Sometimes 'there haVe been seven to eitt in favour of ElrlaYlci t id4l.flnrti aometitnes only six to seven bis been arrant I.le proportion, but the Cabinet ha, alilys'eit , en equally or nearly so divided. Thus have we lii going on with divided Goverianents, with Lord 1.-eras tenants, and with Attornics' and Selicitors'-Genera!', tainiug different views upon aquestion tift'ae t itat importance, to the country, for the matt 'a'w‘itiell they were govern ing, and for the r. ease of which they were responsible. ' The oottaT'tle'nce of all this was that hououtahle men were d —end pu ties were formed using the names on either side without the wish or sanction of those persons to whom I allude. The result of all this Ills been that it want of energy has been introduced into the admi nistration of affairs in Ireland, And this is one reason for attempting finally Yo fettle that question.— Lei: oft ask, Sir, what I‘ai "Otssed with respect to the divi altins in this House? The House of Commons has re peatedly sn the question for the last ten years, I and as t have alre sly said from out of five of the divisions tit the House of Commons the last five Parliaments have been in favour of the Catholic Question.—(Cheers. ) It is ti toa Sir, th it one Parliament did resist this mea sure, but they did so by a m:ijority of 243 to 241—(Hear, hear.)—and this forms the single exception to the rule. When the Question was brought forward in 1819, there was a majority of two against it. In 1821, there was a Majority of six in its favour ; and in 1824 also, a Bill actually passed by a majority of nineteen. In 1822, a Bit 413,, passed Fay a majority of fire. In 1824, the . question was not brought forward.—(Hear.) — In 1825 it was carried by a majority of 21. In 1826 a new Parliament was elected ; and in 1827 that Parlia ment decided against the consideration of the Catho lic Claims by a majority of four. In 1828, how ever, the same Parliament decided in favour of taking those claims into consideration by a majority of six. What but injurious consequence* to the Government could result from thus having a divided Cabinet—the House of Lords dividing against the House of Commons, and the House of Commons itself so equally divided, and the strength of each party so nicely balanced, that neither could do otherwise than paralyse the efforts of the other? (Cheers.) With respect to the present House of Commons, it was elected in 1826, and I ask, Sir, is this House of Commons an unfair representation of the people with respect to the Catholic Question?---(Great cheers.)—Was it elected at a time when public opinion was ant alive to the carrying of this question.—(lmmense cheering.)—lt was elected in the year 1825, after its predecessor twice car , ried Bills through the House for the relief of the Roman Catholics. The evils, too, of the Roman Catholic Association had been felt at the time, and their proceedings were so well known through the country and in this House that Bills had been pissed for its suppression. It is clear then, that public attention had been called to this question, and if a general desire existed to prevent the Ca tholics front sharing the benefits of the Constitution, then was the tune for the public voice to have made itself heard.—(Hear, hear.)—lt is hard to fight the con stant battle of opposition without the materials for doing it. It is hard to be compelled ta tarry on the Go vernment of Ireland, with the House of Lords opposed to the House of Commona, and the Commons divided against itst-b.—and at the same time to be held respon sible for withholding so very important a measore.— I ask your, Sir, to look at the returns of Menalsera of Parliament to this House, and when I am told that the Eelinga of the country are unanimous in direct op position to this Question, I answer by reference to the repeated divisions in this House. If the feeling is unanimous against Emancipation, why has it not manifested itaelf, not by petitions from various parts of the country ; but in the proper way, by the Elective Fran chise, sir as to paralyse all resistance.—(Cheers.)---I asked Sir, the day before yesterday an Hon. Friend of mine, `to select fifteen counties containing the 'argent poptda- tion, and to select also twenty of the largest ta,wns, con taining also the largest'population, and returning Members to Parliament—and to make out fur me a return of the Members for each, and the manner in which they had voted, in order that I might judge whether I—the individual on whom the burden was thrown—was justified in continuing to resist al: concession, and that I might judge upon what grounds it was stated that the feelings of the people were so much again 4 concession. The counties were selected only on the ground of the population, and the fact* to be deduced were most impoi tent, for if we are responsible for the conduct of the affairs of Ireland, and if an important measure is prayed for and pressed by the Protestant population of England, the responsibility is great to those who oppose th it measure. The Protestant oopulation of England have, by their representatives to Parliament, declared themselves in favour of con cessicn. In the Parliament elected in 1846, the following counties were dins represented. York gave no opinion for it sent two Members to vote one way and two the other. (Lenghter,and an expression ofdisaent from one Member.) I said, Sir, th.at I was to be governed, as to their opinions, by the representatives returned by the counties, and not by any opinions expres-ed in petitiona—and I declare, Sir, that when I resisted this question, I never was a party to the getting up of a singe petition against it. It might be and, that the country had had no warning, and tl,at I ought to put it on its guard. Sir, I say, never, mkt - any circumstance., will I consent to in !lime the country.—(Tremendous cheering.)—Tlie pen pe are the proper judges as to whom they will re turn to represent them ; and when I w:y that the opinion in York goes for nothing; I do not wean that York may not have a very strong feeling upon tLe sub ject, but I do say, that they have expres , ed none as af fording me the instrument—the means of judging of that opiniou.—(Loud cheers.) Middlesex has returned two Members, both in favour of the Catholics. Lancashire has,declined to express any opinion upon the subject— (Laughter),—having returned one Member for and another against it. Devonshire has followed the example of Lanca shire and Kent is precisely in the same condition.— Surrey is the same—but here Somerset comes as an ex ception, having returned two Members ; and I do not say they represent the true feeling of the county, but they have uniformly voted against any concession to the Catholics.— Norfolk has returned two in favour of the Catholics : Stafford two also in favour of Catholics. Gloucester one fur and one against ; Essex the same; Hampshire both opposed ; and Wat wick, Lincoln and Suffolk, all divided. Thus, Sir, I must either Ray that this unanimity against the Catholics does not exist—or that others also have aban doned their duty. The result then, Sir, from these 15 Counties is this—that fittern Members have voted against concessions to the Catholics, and seventeen for those concessions—an.l that after a former House of Com- moos had twice passed Bills of Relief for the Catholics. I was never more sure of any fact than that no ma jorities will enable you to compete with the evils of Ire and by a system of opposition to the Claims of the Roman Catholics. Assured that Government will he enabled to carry the Bill for suppressing the Association, I beg you to consider how the government of Ireland is to be maintained with the weight of public opinion opposed to it ? In 1828, of the County Members who voted on the question 45 were in favour of emancipation, and 16 in opposition to it.—(Hear, hear.)—Of the principal Towns and Boroughs, 16 were against it, and 17 in favour, the gross numbers were therefore 61 in favour and 33 against. Thus far you see the deliberate opinion of the people of England, which has been decidedly expressed for twenty years ; it is unfair, therefore, to throw upon me tile whole responsibility of the measure. Let any man who has watched the debates of this House, notice the different speakers who have taken part for and against the measure. I hold in my hand a list of those who took part for and against it ; but it would be invidious in ins to proclaim it. Many of those, who now take a part against the intended measure, do it out of their great zeal for the Protestant Establishment. But, Sir, I am surprised that those:llcm- bent could let this question pass so many years without opening their mouths ; that they should all at once become so violent.—(Loud cries of hear, hear, from all parts of the House,)—lt is too bad, Sir, I repeat, for those who, before the year 1829, never resisted this question, to come forward, and now accuse me of want of zeal for the Protestant establishment. The Hon. Member for Kent would have shown his consistency in corning forward to oppose this question upon former occasions, much more than by summoning the people of England to Penenden-heath. (Cheers.) The question is, Sir, how long can this measure be resisted. Are not the younger Members of this House enlisted in the service of Emancipation? Many of them arc its eloquent advocates. Note, Sir, this is the state in which the Government and Parliament have been sideration is the state of Ireland. - 1•! that state not owing to a want of energy that must always exist in a divined Government? We bare seen that resistance to the Catholic Claims has not brought paste to Ireland. It is impossible to prophecy what will be the tesuic of the proposed measure, hut certain it is somethine must be done. - The resent laws are totally irstiffieient, an d whilst Parliament remains so divided nothing can be satisfactorily done. I have been blamed for the poli c y of this country as regarded Ireland. lam very willirg to take my share of blame, but it is blame which must certainly attaoh also to the lot of every public man who hats preendel toe. In 1800 an Act was passed fir the SuSpensifm of the Habeas Corpus. In 1803 a re bellion broke out, which was generally call .d Emmett's rebellion. In 1806 the whole west of Ireland was in a state of insuberdieation, and a .sp;;;ial Cointhission was appointed. In 1807 the Insurrection Act passed, which nrtde it a ! A :ansportable offence _for any person to be Et 7 Oltt out of doors after sunset. In 1811 the Catholic Association was ffist formed, which spread itself to alarming extent. In 1525 an Act was passed to dissolve that Association, which ended in 1827. In 1529 we have again passed another Act for the sooprestion of that Association, but this, like all other measures that have been resorted t , Wi3l prove insufficient to ensure the safety , 31 that conntry. The question therefore is, What must be done ? The present state of things is a divided Government, and a divided House of Commons. This cannot remain, some attempt must be made. The next question ix, what course must be pursued? I would ask, in the first place, could an united Government be formed at this moment determined to oppose the Catholic Claims? Secondly, could a Government he formed unanimeus in granting those Claims? I know, Sir, that it is considered by some persons that there is a possi bility of the first being carried into execution, But the majority of this House must think otherwise. We have ineiveil, Sir, at that point when we have the option of two courses—to oppose or to concede. I must say no Government can he formed to offer remanent resistance to the Roman Catholics. If that is acceded to, my justification is complete—(hear, hear, hear)_ consequently no other course can be followed than that of concession. It has been declared on the highest authority that the common law is not sufficient for the protection of Ireland, and when the Act fur the illegal Association ex pired the Law Officers of that country were consulted, who entirely agreed in that opinion, and moreover declared that something must be done. I, Sir, am of opinion that the Act just passed will be totally insufficient, if unac companied by concession. —(Tremendous cheering.)—lt would only influence the public mind and render it still more desperate. It must be acknowledged that Go. vernment cannot carry on measures of coercion or perma nent resistance, and the time is come when we might con sider the question with a view to consider the disabilities under which the Catholics labour. My Hon. Friend the Member for Oxford told us not long ago, that there were in Ireland no less than 23 counties ready to follow the ex ample of the county of Clare in the event of a General Election. Then, if such be the case, where, Frisk, is the remedy ?—(Hear.)—ls it to be found in a dissolution of Parliament?—(Loud cries of hear, and no, no.)—Does any man expect that there can be formed an united Government decidedly hostile to the claims of the Roman Catholics ? What can you du? How are you to decide? There are points upon which yon must come to an immediate decision with respect to Ireland, or how are the evils which hang over that country to be avoided? Thereare, no doubt, many Hon. Members who think that Ministers might carry a Bill for the Suppression of the Catholic Association, anti at the same time go on to vote the Supplies, without introducing any measures to remedy the evils which are now pretty generally atintitted to exist in the sister kingdom. But I would ask these Hon. Members to censider how the internal Govern ment of Ireland is to be carried on. Is it to be conducted upon a system of exclusion ? If so, how were they to deal with the Irish Representative Body? When the Catholic Question was discussed in 1828, sixty-one Representatives for high counties voted ; of these 45 voted in favour of the Catholic claims, and 16 against them ; of the several large towns, 16 voted for the Roman Catholics, and 17 against them. Thus making 61 votes in favour of the Catholic claims, and 33 against them. Upon that occa sion the Hon. Members for Dublin voted, one one way, and one the other. The Member for the University of Dublin voted in favour of those claims. The Members for Cork voted in favour of the Roman Catholics. The Members for Limerick voted in favour of the Catholic claims ; the Members far Waterford voted in forour of the Catholic claims; the Members for Galway voted in f a vou r of the Catholic claims ; the Members for Drogheda voted in favour of the Catholic claims; and the Members for Derry against the Catholic claims. Thus, then, you have in Ireland forty-five Members of counties in favour of Ca tholic emancipation, and 16 Representatives of large towns on the same side of the question. You may turn mond awl tell me, that this preponderance of votes is owing to the great weight of Catholic influence. To which I answer, it certainly is —(load cheers) ;—end therefore increases, in my mind, the necessity of permanently settling the Catholic Question. We have been told that there are twenty-three counties in Ireland ready to follow the example of the county of Clare. Then, if this be so, or if we are to have an addition to the supporters of the Catholic Claims to any thing near that extent, I say that you have only to add that increased number to the majority I have already de scribed, and then you will have the whole, or nearly the whole, of the constituent body, as well as of the represen tative body of Ireland, united in favour of those claims.— ( Hear, hear.)—Sir, it is impossible, separated as England ;net Ireland are, to govern Ireland upon principles such as these. It is impossible that, under such circumstances, the moral influence of precept and example can fail to pre vail. Then, I again ask, what is your remedy ? Either you must go on in the course son have cnnimenced—that of concession, or else you must retract all the privileges You have hitherto granted ; and if you do this, you will give rise to a streegle the issue of which it is fearful to" contemplate ; by such a step you will enter upon the great chapter, which, if fiOlowed up, will annihilate all the privileges hitherto conceded. in short there can be no middle course; either there must he concession, or there must be a re-enactment of all those penal laws, whirr!), pushed to their legitimate issue, must lan productive of the most disastrous effects. But is it, I would ask, in the power of this House to send back the penal laws to Ireland, in the shape in which they formerly existed ? Can we, after having removed the seal frown the vessel which contained the great spirit. and suffered it to escape, again conjure it back, and confine it within its former limits--(Cheers)?—Sir, we have seen the effects which education has had upon the peat body of the population of Ireland ; we have seen the manner in which that popula tion has increased. Now, I will only ask the House to look at the numbers and opinions of that population. I am now speaking under the supposition that the Government of Ireland is intended h be carried on upon a system of exclusion, amid the withdrawal of all the civil privileges hitherto granted. Let us look for a moment at the state of the population of Ire land. By the last census taken, I find that that country contains six millions eight hundred thousand inhabitants. Of these, about 1,900,063 were Protestants and Pro testant Dissenters of various descriptions. I make this statement from the calculation's of the Honourable Member for Louth, which calculations have been resioced to the, greatest nicety and correctness. Now then, supposing the Irish Government to be conducted upon principles of coercion and exclusion, I have a right to inquire into the nature and extent of the excitement which would be likely to take place ; and in order to do this, I most look to the manner in which Protestants and Catholics are divided in the different districts. It might, upon a full view of the question, be supposed that 2,000,000 of Protestants and Protestant Dissenters could carry on the Irish Government without difficulty; but when it is recollected that of that 2,000,000 more than 1,200,000 resided in Ulster, it must be matter of calculation how the three provinces of Leinster, Munster, and Connaught, could get on with a Catholic population of 4,250,000 inhabitants, and a Protestant population of some 750,000 persons.-- Besides, it should he considered that the pro portions of Catholic and Protestant inhabitants were very unequally divided in Ireland. In the coun ties of Antrim and Down there are few Catholics. In the county of Clare there are ten contiguous parishes is which not a single Protestant or Protestant Dissenter is to he found. In four pinches in Ulster, the whole popula tion consists of Protestants and Protestant Dissenters. In Leinster there are 134 parishes, in which there are 186,000 Roman Catholics and 24,000 Protestants, making a proportion of about seven and a half to one. In Munster there are 72 parishes, containing 12,000 Protestants, and 167,500 'lonian Catholics. In Connaught there were 23 parishes, containing a population of 102,500 inhabitants, of whom 96,200 were Catholics,and 4,800 Protestantomaking a proportion of more than 20 to 1. If you divide the two elassrs of subjects in Irel tad, you will enact a measure which will lie viewed with great jealousy in Ireland.-- (I lear.)-11 you withdraw the privileges already granted to the Catholic body in Ireland, hew, I ask, do you intend to govern a population of 4,500,000 Catholics, having only 750,000 Protestants amongst theta? Sir, it is idle to argue the question. But I will ask whether it is for the interest of the Protestant or of the Catholic religion that tomb a course of things should take place ? If you de termine to do this, how do you propose to administer the land the right of Trial by Jury? If you do, depend upon it your measures of coercion will be in a great degree de feated.—(Hear, hear.) For myself, I feel perfectly satis fied that it is for the Proteataut as well as the Catholic in tercet that the line of demarcation which hes hitherto been so str , .ngly drawn between them be a s near ly e ff ace d as possible. If you draw more strongly that line of demar cation, what, I ask, ar-e you to do with the Raman Ca possessed as they are a a pnwerrul alliance in this House ? Again, I say, yon are fighting this battle not as Protestants againSt Catholics—for the Catholics are a firm and onito rl body, ;and oppose theinaelves to you in a corn s iiet phalanx, wheEeas the Protestants are divided 'and op posed to . each other on the . question.L.-(flear.) This is the point of view in V7ll:ili 1 think you oua . ht to consider the question. Look to the declaration made the other day by a majority of the great landed proprietors of Ireland, who were of course deeply in terestcd in the adjustment of the measure. That de claration put the question in its true light. It represented the Roman Catholics as one united and compact phalanx, whilst the ProtsstaNe ss-e'e fineng battle ilis'hart. ThAt decia t ration was signed, as I have 'Al';'eady oinierved, by persons svto were deeply interested in all that relates to Ireland. It was signed by two Dukes, seven Marquisaea, and 27 Earls. Can we suppose that they had any motive in unfairly stating the caw: ? Thus then we find the Roman Catholics Unit_ nimous in the assertion of their Claims, whilst the Protestants are labouring, not only under disunion among themselves, but acting nnder a divided Government. Such a state of things might be endured during peace, but can it possibly exist in the event of a war? I almost fear that the first appearance of that war will lie at home. If Hon. !.embers are determined to say that they will maintain the principles of the Constitution, and that in order to do so they are ready to carry their measures of exclusion into execution at any risk, I must advise them to look to history. There was a time when the affairs of • Irrlind were administered by bold hearts and determined spirits. Let us look at 1792. At that period it was found that Grand Juries were united in a body in opposing the Catholic Claims, even at a time when Mr. Pitt was at the head of the English Government. At that period, too, the Parliament of Ireland sets found rejecting, nut any Bill or measure fur the relief of the Roman Catholics, but a petition praying a consideration of their claims, by a majority of at least three to one. But what followed ? In the course of a year the French war broke out, and in despite of the declarations of Grind Juries—in despite of the Irish House o f Commons, the next Stesion of Parlia ment opened with a recommendation from the Crown to take into consideration thelpropriety of granting certain con cessions to the Irish Roman Catholics.—(Cheers, and cries of hear.) At that period a Bill granting the elective fran chirps was prase(' ; but passed in such haste, and with such , want of attention, that we are even onto this day tasting of ' its bitter fruit.—(Hear, hear.)—Who then will venture to say that we should he safe under the existing system in the event of a war, or that we should not be obliged, in snch an event, to withdraw onr declarations and grant still fur- ' titer concessions ? Another alternative has indeed been al luded to, though, perhaps, somewhat remotely. 1 mean a civil war. Front my heart do I deprecate any such event.—(Cheers.)—Sincerely, from the bottom of my heart, do I hope that the Protestant Constitution of this country may never be loaded with the responsibility of such an event.—(Hear, hear.)—l world, in allusion to such an event--adopting the language of an Illustrious Individual during a former civil war—cry ont—" Peace, peace, peace!"--(Hear, hear, hear.)—To those who con templated, without alarm, such a disastrous event as a chit war, arising out of the discontent to which such a system of coercion and exclusion of the Roman Catholics would be likely to produce, I would say— " CoCant in feedera dextra Quit dater : ast armis concurrent arms Cavete."(cheers.) If thete were a civil war in Ireland, what is to he got from it? What are to be the eonseq iences ? What would be the state of the Catholic question when the civil war had terminated. You tried this before. Read the history of Ireland, Mr. Pitt being at the head of the Government. I take the history of that civil war from the preamble of the Act of the year 1791. It is said there that " a civil war continued to rage and lay desolate the land, and stopped the ordinary course of justice." There would be the same indignation excited now, and, I believe, that after a civil war, if there was one, I believe the very first act vvonld be to look for a settlement of this queetion.—(llese Unless a civil war was to put an end to this contest, and adjust the Catholic Claims, would not all act as nothing ? In 1798, after the civil war, who were immediately con nected with the affairs respecting it ? Lord Corn wallis, .Mr. Pitt, and Lord Castlereagk. In 1801, those illusti ions individua!s retired from office because they mild not carry the question. I feel satisfied, Sir, that the result of a rebellion wonld be a settlement of the Ca tholic question. 117 these facts I have attempted to satisfy the people of this country that the time was came when it is prudent to attempt the adjustment of the Cathclic Question. I have attempted, Sir, to show that we cannot remain as we are. That there is a moral necessity which compels us to look fur a settlement. That there being two alternatives, it is safer to prosecute the adjustment of the question, than to prosecute resistance to it : and it is with that view I proceed at this period to lay before the House the proposal of his Majesty's Ministers for removing seine of the evils—at least for laying the foundation of a better syetem of Government, and for adjusting what is called the Catholic Question.--Sir, I do not pretend to disguise any of the difficulties which accompany the settlement of this ques tion. Some difficulties which are very strongly urged, I cannot and never have attempted to remove. The chief opposition throughout the country at this irawnent, I believe, is that thii" question involves religious and not political circumstances, The excitement which has been created lat this moment arises, I believe, in the supposition that there is itemething inconsistent in attempting to let Catholics into power. Sir, I deny that this is a religious question. Toe question was introduced into this House, and supported solely and only in a political view, awl with reference to the principles of the Constitution. If the question is to be looked upon as a -eligious one, have we, let me ask, succeeded, by our system of exclusion, in in creasing the number of Protestants? Is it not a fact that th e agen t s o f the Protestant religion are suspected ? Is it not flue that the higher clesees of the Rotaan Catholics are prevented, by a sense of honour, from conforming to the Protestant religion? Is it not true that the Protestant religion would have fairer play, and, at the same time, a better chance of purifying, if not destroying, the Catholic religion, if the Catholic disabilities were altogether removed ? I thisk I shall be able to show that the question before us is purely political, and that no man, however warm, however zealous in support of the P,otestant cause, can offer any objection to the measure which I am about to propose. (Hear.) Another ground which has been taken, but which in my opinion never could for one moment be supported, is the Coronation Oath.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, I can only say, that having for eighteen years conducted the opposition to this question, anti having been desirous of finding out a fair, legitimate ground of objection to it, I cannot give a better proof of my objection to the coronation oath standing in the way, than that I uniformly disclaimed that as a ground. That was the construction put upon the Coronation. Oath by Mr. Pitt and Lord Liver pool, and I confess, when I read the terms of that oath, I cannot conceive the removal of civil disabilities is incon sistent with it. But that there are other and serious diffi culties presenting themselves in carrying the measure I do not for one moment attempt to disguise from myself. I know that in approaching this subject there are difficulties and o' jectious which I anticipate as growing out of the terms of the Act of Union, and which will no doubt be urged against ine—l know, too, that in the composition of the measure which I am shout to submit, there may be found to be objections to p o i n t s th a t will naturally be felt its an interference in vested political rights ; hot I earnestly intreat that all who hear inc will agree with me in the pro priety of approaching thi s su bj ec t i n th e s pirit of mutual concession (cheers.) Let us consider whether the basis on which I propose to put these measures be just—whether the measures themselves he well founded. Let us look to their ultimate object ; and if that object be not in itself vain, let us not for any slight objection forego the advantages which every sensible man must reasonably expect, although the result ma y be somewhat over-rated by some of the most san guine among us? and let us not refuse to do what we can to avert those dangers which every man must foresee if this attempt at conciliation shottld fail to he adopted.— (Cheers.) —There have before been great occasions in which minor objects have been set aside. Look it the great periods in the history of this country, when the public safety required great and extraordinary measures— irreconcilealile with the ordinary course of events. In such crises it has been found a mutter both of fail nese and wisdom to make a partial stcrifice of a principle, for the purpose of securing an object which it was the essential aim of that principle to preserve. Look at the Union with Scotland. That Union was found absolutely neces sary for the public interest. The advantage of the whole nation required that the Governments of the two countries should be consolidated; yet when that question was first agitated, the greatest effect was produced by what was said of the Nature of the measure itself. It was said, " Will you consent, under any circumstances, to sacrifice an independent Legislature—to sacrifice the independence of the kingdom, under ordinary circumstances, this objection teould have • been entitled to the greatest weight—to a weight that no. thing could have overcome, except the persuasion, the ab solute conviction, that the immense importance of the jut of the Union was one Which could yield to no minor considerations ? Look at the later sls of our history, when the Septennial Act *A passed. That that Act was violation of the principle that Aiettin..rs of the Legislature were rent into this /louse with limited powers, to dis charge a trust for the benefit of their constituents, it is on possible to deny, when we consider that by its provi sions they prolonged their own legislative existence.-- That the tr;:q committed to. them was violated by this Act, Ouktirfetl its tiatui . 4: Arid dut•at'Onj there can, i think, be no doubt. in tbe tike manner, if We take the case of the Regency, or when we refer to another period, in which it was deemed expedient to sacrifice heritable : j urisdictions, there was in each case a departure from the ordinary rules of lrgisla• ti , m and government, although, espt:!ially in the latter, the , mvarl)re VAA fedi leF:s hr e'e6sAi3 , thAt are now called on to pass. Let us take the case of the Regeney—an occasion on which the Legislature, fry m the pressure of necessity, and under peculiar circumstances, departed from the ordinary rules of Government, and con . stitutel a Sovereign of the Country. T he case of the Union is another instance of the same kind. It was elucidated by him wiLit a res.:arc;i that W 1 greatest bonour on him, having been brought forward ode' rally with the purest motives—namely, for the purpose of conciliating the objections of others mote than of satisfying his own mind, and fur the purpose of obtain ing the gre.it object he had in view ; but I confess I should see with great reluctance a member of Parliament in this House compelled upon certain, and sot upon very tlAnite proceedings, to retire front it.—(Loud cheers. )—I think notwithstinding, the very ingenious plan suggested by ow Nol;le Friend it would be very difficult to act upon the principle laid down by heir.) If the Roman Catholics were pe' mit ted to speak and not to votei • I cooecive .that as Much danger could be done b'y as clot w7rit and narty,TV4 arguing his point, and being obliged to • ursr, from n•;vion• his vote as if he were rr -0 o whop. witted to remain rind Vote t ltnf tiptilt the it would he a departure trotii 414. is the priniihde groiiio i:rinfCbg !'orrard tido 4ii4aatire,,aixi oar which I. slisa feel mysrif fortifie4 tbn - ponsitteritiT, of other parts of this question, namely, a departure the great principle of the removal of the disabilities of the Roman Catholics.—((sheering.) Sir, 1 think it would be well, in this stage of the proceeding, that I should read the o ith which I propose as a substitute for the oaths-niiW ill reflect r 7 adopted under circumstances of pressing necessity. The taken by Protestant members of Parliament, as well as that Union with Ireland was a virtual abrogation of all the to Whin the Romeo Catholics will have to subscribe.--• ordinary principles of a Government. it Was a sacri- In the first place . , IC am: &ire it will be a great res flee of an independent Legislature and an independent lief to the Roman Catholics, and n ;Aiiifitetiortl Parliament, and nuthing could have justified such a believe to many Protestants, to hear that,' propose to rePeil departure from principle but the necessity which c all e d the oaths against transubstantiation with respect to sitting for it—in the same manner great considerations o f in Parliament, and holding offices generally. The decla- State policy are those which compel us to overlook th e ration against transubstantiation never was intended as ordinary considerations of Government.—([fear, hear.)_... a religious teat; it was not applied in the reign of Queen Sir, I shall now proceed to explain the principles upon Elis, ibetli, or in the early pnriotis of the country.--it was I which the measures of the Government are formed, and applied in the reign of Charles 11., and treed more for to explain also their tendency. I beg to state, in con- the purpose of the exclusion of the Roman Catholics tiadiction to the reports which have been circul a t e d, than any thing else ; and when the removal of the that the measure which I have this night to propose, i s exchision of the Roman Catholics is to be effected, there the measure upon which his Mejesty'sGoverninent resolved appears to be no reason why it should be continued.--• before the meeting of Parliament.—(Hear, hear, hear.)_ (Loud and long continued cheering.)—Sir, I propose to In consequence of no intimation or any objection h ave retain the ancient oath of supremacy to be taken of the Government altered the character of the measure, the Protestants. I hope the time teas i Vie This is not only in eubstance but in words th a t ver y when these distinctions shall be all abolished, an d n Uri measure which, after deliberate consideration, precedinc we may expect to see the Roman Catholics also take the meeting of Parliament, the Government had resolved to the o ith of supremacy ; but as that may not be bring forward. Sir, I think it also proper to state th a t no accomplished at present, it becomes, however, necessary other persons but the Government arc parties to this to propose a test in the oath which they likewise shill be measure (Hear, hear, hear). It was thought much more under the necessity of taking. I propose in the fair to parties immediately connected—even apart from oath for the Roman Catholic to relieve him from every otherconsideration—that the measure should be pro- the necessity of taping the Oath of Allegiance posed upon the responsibility of Government ; and with aril the Oath of Abjuration, because the oath which respect to the concessions, as well as with respect to 1 intend to prescribe shall incorporate both. The the restrictions the measure is calculated to bring for- oath shall be to this effect : ward, the Government is exclusively responsible ; nor "I, A. 8., do declare, that I profess the Roman Catholic has any other person been consulted with respect to religion." "I, A. B , do sincerely promise and swears them in any manner whatever.—(Cheers.)---Sir, what that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to his Ma itre then the principle and the substance of this mea- ,testy King George I V., and will defend him to the utmost sure ? I answer at once—the principle of the mea- of my power against all conspiracies and attempts what' sure is the abelition of civil restrictions and the equa- ever which shall be made against his person, crown, or dig' lity of political rights.—(Long-continued cheering.)— nity, and I will do my utmost endeavour to disclose a nd There may be exceptions to be vindicated upon special make known to his Majesty, his heirs and successor's all grounds—they will lie exceptions to the rule—but the treasons and traitorous conspiracies which may be fortified rule and principle of the measure is the abolition of civil against him or them. Anti I do faithfully promise to restrictions, and the equality of political rights.— (Hear, maintain, support, and defend, to the utmost of my powers hear, hear, hear.)—From that I start—by that posi- the succession to the Crown, which succession, by an Act tion I feel myself fortified, and I have a tight entitled—' An Act for the further limitation of the Crowns 1 think to demand the assent of the Roman Catholics to and the better securing the rights and liberties of the sub' other measures, which I may feel it necessary to bring for- ject,' is, and stands limited to the Princess Sophia, Elec ward for the security of the Protestant institutions. Sir, tress of Hanover, anti the heirs of her body, being Protest' another principle pervades this measure.—(Hear, hear.) ants; hereby utterly renouncing and abjuring anY It is the maintenance, in fict, of the Protestant obedience or allegiance unto ant tither person claiming religion, its doctrines, and disejpline. We have at- or pretending a right to the Crown of these realms• tempted to reconcile these two great objects, the restore- And I do further declare, that it is not an article of time of civil privileges, with a full and permanent se- my faith, and that I do rent•unce, reject, and abjure the curity of the Established Church as rendered pernsa- opinion, that Princes excommunicated or deprived by nent and inviolate, not only by the Union, but the Pope, or any authority of the Sec of Rome, ma y be by the affections and respect of the people of England.— deposed or murdered by their subjects, or by any person (Hear, beer.) Sir, this subject has been so very ably whetsoever. And Ido declare, that Ido not believe that and indeed so very frequently discussed, that it is hardly the Pope of Rome, or any other foreign Prince, Prelate, necessary for me to trouble the house with any details person, State, or Potentate, bath, or ought to have, anY in respect to the state of the law affecting the Catholics temporal or civil jurisdiction ; power, superiority, or Pre" of England and Ireland. It has now undergone so many oisinence, directly or indirectly, within this realm. Ido scars of discussion that probably the existing state of swear, that 1 will defend to the utmost of my power the the law is familiar to most present. (Hear, hear, hear.) settlement of the property within this realm as established It is, I have no doubt, notorious, that the position of the by the laws ; and Ido hereby disclaim, disavow, and see many offices which the Irish Catholica are entitled to hold leinnly abjure any intention to subvert the present church English and Irish Catholics is not the same—that the establishment, as settled by the law within this realm ; English Catholics are not entitled to the same privileges and Ido solemnly saw n• that I never will exercise any pri° which the Irish have, that they are not entitled to hold vilege to which lam or may become entitled to disturb in Ireland, that they arc not enabled to exercise inany pri- or weaken the Protestant religion, or Protestant Govern vileges which the Irish in Ireland can. But I think no meat in this kingdom ; and I do solemnly, in the re doubt can 'i entertained its the mind of any man that sence of God, profess, testify, anti declare, that I do if it be right to consider the Rotnan Catholics of one place ionise this declaration and every part thereof, in the place entitled to certain privi:eges, there is every reason why- and ordinary sense of this oath, without any evasion , the earns measure and an equality of privilege could be equivocation, or mental reservation whatsoever." I trust conferred on the' Roman Catholics of Great Britain.— (continued the Right Hon. Gentleman) that as far se (Hear, hear, bear.)--I ant quite aware, Sir, of the oaths can give ns a security, this security will b e coast' provisions of the Act of Union with Scotland, which ap- dered perfectly ample.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—lt may b'- a pears to throw difficulties in the way of preparing the Ro- said that this oath is less binding than some others take' man Catholic for the enjoyment of civil power. But Ido on some other occasions ; but there are clauses which I think that the feeling and good senseof the House would ten'', would not introduce into this oath—clauses calculated to this conclusion, that if it be consistent with the safety only to weaken the effect of the principle upon which I in' of England and Ireland to qualify Catholics for the troduce the measure altogether ; but I have no hesitation possession of the highest places, it would be hard to in saying that if it should he anything like the decided turn ronnd on the Catholics of Great Britain—(Hear, prevalent opinion of the House that the introduction hear, hear,)—in a country in which there can he no of such toms should be rnacle—(Cries of No !n° ' danger, to say there shall be one part of the kingdom i n no !)—1 shall have oo objection to it. Whatever thi s which the Roman Catholics is disabled from power, and measure may be considered to be, I declare I am pet is labouring snider exclusion, which does not appy in posing it in the unaffected spirit of peace—(cheers)--a other parts of the Empire, that part being Scotland, Ido not wish to clog it with any restrictions which that part o f all others where it is expected there will be I consider to be unnecessary or useless.—(Great cheering .) the least danger.—(Hear, hear.)--And now, Sir, with The oath I propose is with very slight difference the oat h ; respect to the laws. The gem ral impression is no proposed by Lord Plunkett anti others. I think this s hooks doubt, that the penal lairs in Ireland no longer he the only oath to be taken. It would be advisable if po' exist, that the Penal laws have been repealed. sable to have but one oath. (Cheers.) In conformity with the That, Sir, is not the case,—(llear, hear, and cheers)— principle on which the Bill proceeds_of course the Roma n and my urea , tire in this respect, I must say, goes Catholics should be ad ntis,ible to corporate offices in Irelan d ; further than any measure that has yet been brou.:ltt they are at present excluded from them, not so much hY forward. I propose to repeal the Penal Laws in Ireland lass - its by rules r e lating to the administering of oaths on au' and in this countt y with respect to property. That is, mission. The Roman Catholics will also be admissible gene - Roman Catholics shall be on the same foeting with respect rally to officesconnected with the Administration of Justice' to landed prope . ty, as his Majesty's Protestant subjects. Now they are excluded front the office of Sheriffs an d from By the law, as it at present exists, the Catholic, with re- office in the superior Courts of Jurisdiction ; but in future gird t o the posses-ion of property, is subject to the Penal I propose that Rein in Catholics shall be equally Laws until he shall have taken three oaths, specified to all offices connected with the criminal jurisdiction with by the Act. It continually happens from inadvertency or Protestants. With respect to military officers at present: other cause, th e se Acts no t b e i n g the condition of any practically, Roman Catholics of the two countries a re civil trust, ale not taken, and by the penal laws, no s a f e ty liable of the enjoyment of any. military rank except that of is given to the Catholics. In respect to property, 1 pro- Commander-in-Chief With respect to those apprehen' pose that the Rennin Catholics shall be at liberty to possess alone that are frequently urged 115 to the admission of Ca' property on the same footing as any others, without tholics to hith offices in the army, it must not be forgot' being liable to forfeiture or penal laws in case of not taking ten that we have been exposed to the danger for some One those oaths. The next question is as to political power. I con- past, far Roman Catholics have long been capable of held sider it is impossible not to feel that the whole question of ing any office in the army except that of Commander -i n political power turns upon the admission of Members into Chief; and with respect to the higher description of civil Parliament—without that, concessions will do nothing. offices, I ant aware that important considerations are con the Roman Catholic question will remain as trouble- nected with them. But it appears to me, that if we once some as ever, unless we give admission to the Ro- admit them to Parliament, we also determine on their ad' man Catholics into the two branches of the Legisla- mission to civil office. It is not safe to say that there are tare—in truth, any other concession will be an instru- two sources of Lvour and distinction, and that Catholi c° , ment by which the mischief and trouble would be shall only be admitted to one, and that the less powerful °' assisted. Sir, I do think it is most necessary for us to the two. I doubt the wisdom of admitting them to settle this question now, and for ever.—(hear, hear, tical power, by the possession of seats in the most popli nr hear.)—l would propose further, that by the Bill brand' of the Legislature, and at the same time exclude them a I shall bring in the Roman Catholic Peers , and fur- from office. The distinctions of office can only be acqu ired titer, the Roman Catholics who may hereafter be returned from the favour of the Crown, obtained through the exhibiti on to Parliament—shall be qualified to sit in this place, and of talents for office ; but not through the means of in' in the other branch of the Administration, as any of our fluencing any particular body of men in the State. I PO: Protestant Members. (Immense cheering.) I propose pose, therefore, to leave the avenues of ambition opt° t° that it shall be deemed advisable to place them in all (cheers), and to capacitate Roman Catholics for the en' that respect as the Protestant members of this House. — joyment of any office in the s e rvice of the Crown.—(ol ([fear, hear, bear.)—l confess I should doubt the pm - tinued cheering.) I n o w p roceed to the consideration °, licy either of the restriction of the number of Remain the exceptions with which I propose to accompany tali Catholics to be returned , o r any distinc tion in the g eneral rule of e q ualit y and admissibilit y . I p ropose the, privileges, which they should enjoy.—(Hear, hear.)—l the leading principle in which exception shall be fou nded, doubt the policy of restricting Members, because, in the shall he eonnectedWith some duties or offices that are coal first place, I think practical aid would he exceedingly dif- nected with the Es tahlished Church of the country. ficult upon any just principles to carry that restriction should propose, at the same time, to point out the exc e r into effect. Supposing your law was t h at n o t more than tions b y name. They are the Lord Lieutenant or 6°' 40 Roman Catholics should be eli g ible to sit in Parliament vernor of Ireland for the time bein g , and the Lord Chi'n' at the game time ? In the fir s t place nothing could be cellar or Lord Keeper of the Great Seal of Great Britain' so difficult as to determine the principle capon which the (Cheers.) With these single exceptions IT name, ITr number should he calculated. In the next place, nothing pose to leave all offices free to all denominations of his l'es" could be more difficult than to Apply that description to a jesty's subjects.—(Loud cheering.)—(The Right 1 -11 1: i general election, by which you would be enabled to decide, Gentleman then read` from a paper some of the detail supposing a greater number than 40 were returned, which provisions of his hill, for the exclusion of Roman Ceib a ; of the forty should be eligible, and in what instances, the lies from all !natters connected with the Protestaesi elections having taken place, they should be set aside on Church : they should not hold offices in the Ecclesiast ic, the ground of a greater number having been returned than C our t s , or c onnected with any university, college, or ec cle w a s right.—(Hear, hear.) But I have an objection to pi aa ti e ,l es tablishment, including the schools of E t ? ° ' this, Sir, on a still higher grnund ; I think, if we return Westminster, and Winchester.) I propose to preserve in: thirty or forty Roman Catholics to Parliament as the violate all local statutes and ordinances established in on!, maximum charged with the maintenance of the Roman t v e rsities, colleges, or schools to which Roman Ca tholi i r ; Catholic interest, that we should be much more likely to ca nnot now be admitted. I propose also to retain the n combine them, to hold them tip merely to support the i relative to the right of presentation to livings ; and Mor e :, Roman Catholic interests, and so far make a party interest over to enac t, that if an y Roman Catholic shall hold e'',l between us, and prevent them from acting in that way ! office to which church patronage is attached, the Crow_ which would Cause their object to he the promotion of the t shall he empowered to transfer the right of presentation Roman Catholics' interests at large , if not that corn- a C e mmission. Another provision will be, that it shs, binedly with the interests of the Protestants. I there - ' not be la wful for an y Roman Catholic in an y office td fore object to this, and propose that the Roman advise the Crown relative to the appointment to ani, Catholics should enter this and the other House situation o f di g nit y in the Etitahliehed Church of El, of Parliament on the same footing as any member land or Ireland. These exceptions are necessary for 1 of the Church of England, or any Protestant Dissenter in purpose of giving setisfaction to the Protestant mind, an , our House enters.—(Very great cheering.)—l have consi- • for maintaining secure and inviolate the Proteetantß st !, tiered with very great attention the proposal which has been blishrnent ; they res t u p on s p ecific g rounds, and do co t IP