The Sun. — London, England, 1829-03-25 00:00:00

mcnt sholld be held out to the young men in the universi ties, to induce them to embark in discussions which must divert their attentions from those literary pursuitsin which it was the wish of the heals of those establishments to train them. The Earl of ELDON gave notice, that on Thursday next he would present a petition from the under-graduates of the University of Glasgow. He felt it his duty to pre • sent petitions from any persons who were entitled to petition Par:iament. He thought he should be able to prove to their Lordships that young men in Scotland were able to judge of the Catholic Question at the age of eighteen years. The Bishop of ROCHESTER presented a petition in favour of Emancipation from Tunbridge-wells. The Earl of ELDON presented 33 petitions from dif ferent places in England and Scotland, all praying that no further concessions may be granted to the Cttholics. Petitions against the Roman Catholic claims were pre sented hy Lord KENYON, horn the members of the Na ti:teal Sefton! in Lincolnshire; from the rural (lean and clergy of a deanery in Ayrshire, and from a parish in the county of Denbigh`; and by Lord FARNHAM from various places in the counties of Cavan, Wexford, Monaghan, Mericnetb, Down, Carnarvon, Wicklow, Armagh, Water ford, and Donoughmore. • The Duke of WELLINGTON presented s petition from the burgesses and other inhabitants of the town of Forfar, in favour of the Roman Catholic claims. _ . . Mr. Smith presented the 15th report of the Commis sioners for making the roads and bridges in the Highlands of Scotland.—AFljourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(LAST NIGHT.) Mr. F. WILSON presented twelve petitions against the Catholics, from Wyvil, and other parishes in the county of York. Lord BINGHAM presented two petitions from the county of Mayo, in favour of the Catholics. He expressed his most unqualified approbation of the liberal measures that had been brought forward. Admiral Sir E. HARVEY presented four petitions from Waltham Abbey, and other places, against the Catholics. Sir W. INGILBY presented a petition from High and Low Harrowgate, Yorkshire, in favour of the Clawl:cs. Lord ENCOMBE presented petitions front Mersey, in the county of Essex, against the Catholics, and expressed his full concurrence with the sentiments contained in them. Sir R. VYVYAN presented petitions from Penryn, East Looe, and ether places in Cornwall, against con fession. Mr. D. BARCLAY thought the inhabitants of -Pen ryn had been influenced in signing this petition by some isle i that if Emancipation were granted they would lose the property in some gardens which they now held, and which had once belonged to a monastery. Sir R. INGLIS presented petitions from Aberdeen, Cromarty, and other places, against concessions. The first of these was signed by above 1,700 persons within four days. He observed, that all the petitions from Sew:- land expressed the belief of the petitioners that the conces sions now about to be granted were violations, not only of toe spirit, but the letter of the Union. Mr. HUME said, that certainly the petitions from the part of Scotland he represented were signed by respectable, but, he must add, very zealous individuals. Out of 30,000 persons 1,700 had signed within a few days ; but this peti tion had been got up unknown to many of the respectable inhabitants, and now that it was discovered, a Public Meet ing was to he called to procure petitions of a different sort. Many of the Ministets bad been employed lately in deliver ing zealous discourses against the Catholics, and one of them, the Minister at Old Machar, had told the people that if they did not sign the petition, they would lose two favourite Churches—the 0:(1 Kitk and East Kirk, which had been built by the Papists ; and they had also been told that Christ commanded them to sign this petition, and that those who were far him would sign, but those who were against him would not sign. Sir R. IN(;LIS knew nothing of the petitioners but what they themselves had stated, but he thought the peti tion was couched in language that fully deserved attention. 1%11.. DOWNIE presented a petition from Stirling against further concessions to the Catholics, and expressed his con currence with the sentiments of the petitioners. Mr. ABERCROMBIE said that the only cause of the present petition was, that the Clergy had excited the minds of a part of the people upon a subject on which prejudices were most easily raised. Mr. KENNEDY stated that a large portion of the people of that part of Scotland were in favour of a measure, the accomplishment of which, he trusted, was now nearly at hand. Lord OXMANTOWN presented four petitions from parishes in the King's County, in favour of concession. Mr. LINDSEY presented similar petitions from Forfar. Colonel PEEL presented petitions from Saxlingham, in Norfolk, against concession. Mr. HELY HUTCHINSON presented a petition from the Corporals of the Tipperary Regiment of Militia, re specting the proposed Miliiia Bill. Colonel BARNARD presented petitions from two places in the King's County, in favour of concession. Mr. DAVENPORT presented petitionsfrom the Mayor, Aldermen, tee. of Congleton, and from the Inhabitants of that Borough against concession. Captain DUNDAS presented a similar petition from the Ministry and Clergy of Stromness, in the Orkneys. Mr. SHIRLEY presented petitions from places in Monaghanshire, in favour of concession. Petition% in fa-our of the Roman Catholic claims were presented from various parishes in Meath, by Lord BECTIVE. Mr. WODEHOUSE presented a petition from certain Clergy of the Diocese of Norwich, who had not been able to sign the petition presented on a former day in favour of concession. Mr. J. GRATTAN presented petitions from certain Roman Catholics of parishes in Wicklow, against the Sub letting Act, and the Vestry Bill. Mr. DICK presented a petition front Tillingham, in Essex, against the claims. Mr. CURTEIS presented a petition with the same prayer from Hailsham. SILK TRADL. Mr. ROBINSON, in presenting a petition from Man chester, praying the House to take into consideration the laws affecting the Silk Trade, observed that the petition was well worthy the attention of the Right Hon. Presi dent of the Board of Trade ; it was signed by 2,739 ope ratives, and described the distressed state of the Silk Trade in the town of Manchester since the alteration of the laws in 1823 ; there were at the present time no less than 5,000 looms unemployed, and it was the opinion of the petitioners, in which he fully concurred, that the present distress principally arose from the late alterations of the laws, and if Government did not adopt some measure of prohibition to the French silks, a great number of persons mast be pauperized. He was sure Ministers were not in sensible to the misery that existed, and seeing a motion in the paper foe a consideration of the laws affecting the silk trade, for some future day, he would n•tt now enter into the particulars of the matter, hut content himself with asking the Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade whether it was the intention of his Miljesty's Go vernment to propose any measure for the relief of the Silk Trade, by way of prohibition or otherwise. The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. V. FITZ - GERALD) said he should for the present abstain from making any onservations on what bad fallen from the Hon. Member, but he would say it was not the plan of Government to return to the old system : when the proper time arrived be should be able to show that the present distress did not arise from the alterations of the laws, and he would further say that they had not the most distant idea of returning to prohibitory duties. The subject would be brought forward regularly on Tuesday next. The petition was then.read. ASSESSED TAXES. Mr. R. COLBURNE said, that he wished to ask a question of the Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer, relative to the Composition for the Assessed Taxes. The law relative to this subject would expire in April, 1830, and it was therefore neces raty to know what steps the Government intended to pursue relative to those compositions. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the time when the composition for the Assessed Taxes would expire was April, 1830, and therefore it would be necessary for parties to give notice on or before the 30th of October next.—(Hear, bear, hear, hear.)— It was his wish to have introduced a Bill for the consolida tion and improvement of the Laws respecting the Assessed Taxes, which were at present, and had been far some time, in &bail state, but owing to the complicated nature of the measure, the Bill he had in contemplation was not as yet in such a state of forwardness as would authorise him in presenting it to Parliament. He had also to say, that as the composition for the As sessed Taxes depended altogether upon the Assessed Taxes themselves, and as the Bill was not in readiness to be submitted to the House, he should bring in a Bill to extend the operation of the former Bill for another year, that is to say, to April, 1831. Mr. PEEL brought up returns, of the male convicts sent to New South Wales. Mr. G. DAWSON presented twelve .petitions from Londonderry and Tyrone, in favour of the Roman Catholic Claims. Sir T. ACLAND and Sir N. COLTHURST presented petitions from the Corporals of the North Devon and Cork Militia, praying compensation. Mr. G. MOORE presented a petition, with the same prayer, from the Corporals of the Dublin Militia. Mr. G. BANKES presented a petition from the parish of Ormieton, in Haddington, against concession to the Roman Citholics. IRISH FREEHOLDERS. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER the House went into a Committee, and he proposed a resolution for granting additional compensation to the Assistant Barristers and Clerks of the Peace in Ire land, for their superintendanee of the Registry of Free holds in Ireland. The Report was brought up, and ordered to be received to-morrow. Mr. DALY moved for a Return of the number of Re gistered Freeholders within the last ten years iu every county, city, and town-county of Ireland. Mr. S. RICE suggested the addition of the number of freemen, whether honorary or otherwise, in the different Corporations of Ireland for the same period. The addition was made, and the motion was agreed to. The Militia Suspension Bill was read a third time and passed on the motion of Mr. W. PEEL. INNKEEPERS' BILL. On the Motion of Mr. G. DAWSON, the Innkeepers' Bill was reported, the Amendments agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be readA third time to-morrow. ROMAN CATHOLIC BELIEF BILL. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, he had been requested to present a petition from the Secular Clergy of the Roman Catholic persuasion in the city of Dublin. They stated that they approached the House with feelings of gratitude for the measures of relief which were passing through it. To all the restrictions imposed on the secular Clergy they had no objection ; but they expressed their earnest hope, and confident expectation, that the result of those measures would be the establishment of religious peace, the diffusion of charity, the revival of confidence, and the concentration of the resources of the country, so as greatly to promote the strength, proSperity, and glory of the empire. They bore their testimony to the loyalty, general good conduct, and useful exertions of that part of the Roman Catholic Clergy, against whom certain provisions in the Bill might be passel without any restrictions affecting the monastic orders. Lord ALTIIORP could not support the prayer of the petition. • Mr. S. RICE bore testimony to the uniform good con duct of that pert of the Roman Catholic Clergy to which this petition referred, where the Secular Clergy were not able to perform their duties. The Bill, he was aware, was not intended to inflict pain or throw any discredit on the monastic orders. But he was more anxious to call the Right Hon. Gentleman's attention to another class of per sons, who would be placed in a difficult situation, though altogether of a different character from the monastic orders; he meant those who were bound by vows, but ant of a religious nature, and who devoted themselves to give education to the poor gratuitously. They were com monly known as lay brothers, and he could speak from his own observation as to the utility and benefit of their exertions in the South of Ireland, where they had esta bli,hed many schools for the poor. They had no superior at Rome, nor did they act under any foreign orders ; they were not, in fact, ecclesiastics, but civil subjects of the King ; and were bound together by vows fur the dis charge of a civil duty. The provisions of the Bill, be trusted, would not, therefore, affect them, though there was a question whether it ought to be so construed. After a few words from Mr. THANT and Mr. Secretary PEEL, the petition was ordered to be printed. On the motion of Mr. Secretary PEEL the Order of the Day was read, for the Committee cf the whole House on the Roman Catholic Relief Bill. The Marquis of CHANDOS had no intention to op pose the motion for the Speaker's leaving the Chair, but with regard to what had taken place last night in the Committee, he could not fail to express his hope, and he believed also the feelings of that House and of the country, that neither himself nor those with whom be was con nected in opposing this Bill, might, in the discharge ti their duty to themselves and the country at large, be allowed that privilege of being fairly heard without in terruption or prejudice, which, he was sorry to say, they had not enjoyed last night so fully as they ought. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that his Noble Friend might be assured it was his opinion that those who were opposed to the policy of the me,sure, rendered essential service to the Bill before the House, by moving amendmen's calcu lated to perfect it ; and so far was he from considering that course objectionable, or proceeding from a hostile spirit, that he felt it nothing but an obligation for Hoe. Gentlemen to offer suggestions to make it perfect for the purposes intended. The House then went into a Committee of the whole Tottse. Mr. Secretary PEEL called the attention of the Com mittee to the first clause, relating to the right of Roman Catholics to vote at elections, and to be elected as Mem bers of Parliament, on taking the oath prescribed by the Bill. His object was, to make some verbal amendments, with a view to render the law more explicit, and provide for the case of Scotland. Th.y would not affect the prin ciple of the Bill, but only the details. ' The Amendments having been read, Mr. ROBERT DUNDAS said this Bill, should it pass into a law, would in some degree render the interests of one country subservient to those of the other, and would violate the sacred principle of the Union. De Foe, in his History of the Union between England and Scotland, the best authority on the subject, related the proceedings of the Scottish Parliament before the Union was agreed to.— They found the twenty-five Articles of the Union already drawn up and agreed to ; but a difficulty was introduced by a learned and eloquent opponent of the Union, who was highly exasperated against the twenty-five Articles of the Union, which had all been framed without any security for the Presbyterian Established Church of Scotland, be cause in Scotland the religion was different from that of England. They objected to the Scottish Church submit ting to the Episcopal jurisdiction of the Church of Eng land, or to the votes and suffrages of the Bishops in the Bri tish Parliament. The result was, that an Act of Security for the Church of Scotland was passed, and being agreed to by the English Parliament, was annexed to the Act of Union, and made an essential part of it. The Hon. Gent. then read extracts from the Act to show how it was incor :sarated as an integral part of the Act of Union. He would not consent that, on any argument of temporary ex pediency, the most important Articles of the Union should be violated ; and this Act of security declared, in regard to the election of Members of Parliament for Scotland that " none shall be capable to elect or be elected for any of the said estates but such as are of 21 years of age complete, and Protestant, excluding all Papists, or such who, being suspected of Popery and required, refuse to swear and sub scribe the formula contained in the third Act made in the eighth and ninth Sessions of King William's Parliament, intituled, Act for preventing the growth of Popery,' and also declaring that none shall be capable to represent a Shire or Burgh in the Parliament of Great Britain for this part of the United Kingdom, except such as are now ca pable by the laws of this kingdom to elect and be elected as Commissioners for Shires and Burghs to the Parliament of Scotland." As long as he was a Member of that House he was determined that his fellow-countrymen of Scotland should not be deprived of the whole benefit of the most im portant articles of the Union. The LORD ADVOCATE said that when his Right Hon. Friend brought forward this Bill, he had stated, that one of the difficulties which entered into the proposal he had to make was, that it did touch the Act of Union. But it did not appear that this objection was sufficient to overbalance any consideration arising from that principle. This was a Bill of a general and comprehensive nature, and it was not wise or expedient to exclude one part of the country from its operation. He was quite certain that there was no feeling of any kind on this subject existing in Scotland, as to that country being excluded from the Bill. It would affect that country very little, as there were only two Roman Catholic Peers of Scotland, and he was sure it would not add ten to the whole list of the free holders of Scotland. There could be no doubt as . to the legislative power of Parliament to alter and repeal the Articles of Union. Only one of them was declared to be unalterable, and that implied that all the others might be altered, on cause being shown. He, for one, would stand up on all occasions, and with his utmost exertions, in de fence of tae Articles of the Union, when any attempt should be made by the strong and great pow e r of England to invade the rights of the weaker country. That was the fair and legitimate use of the Union, and that was no new language to be held with regard to Scotland. If any measure was meant to affect that country, the Ar ticles of the Union would bear him out in resisting it; but when it applied to the whole kingdom, there was no pretence for calling in the Articles of Union.— Looking at the great question of Catholic emancipation it self, he should say that the advantages likely to arise from it were considerable, and were so calculated to extend their influence over the whole kingdom, that they would war rant the introduction of any step that was not an actual in vasion of the Union ; and he trusted that he had said enough to show that such was not the case in the present L initance.—(Hear, hear.)—And he was sure that his friends on the north of the Tweed need not entertain any fears for the safety of the Presbyterian religion, or for the permanency of the Established Church in Scotland : he could assure them that they were not in any peril or dan ger.—(Hear, hear.)—Let them always remember that the security of the Chinch of Scotland rested on the wisdom, information, and good senee of the people of Scotland.-- (Hear, hear.) Mr. G. BANKES wished to refer the Committee to the 21st Article of the Union, which was for the preservation of the integrity of the Royal Burghs; that article con rained a test which all persons might be required to take when about to hold any office in the burghs ; the test was of the strongest Protestant description, and required the test taker to abjure all the tenets of the Popish doctrine. If any portion of the Act of linion was to be repealed, he could, at least, wish that it should be specifically named, and not placed under the general title of Acts repealed. Sir GEORGE CLERK said, it appeared to him im possible that any article of the Act of Union could really apply to the question now before the Committee ; neither if such were the case, did he see why any one in Scot land should feel uneasy about it, for whatever apprehen sions they might have as to the Church of Ireland, there was not the slightest danger as to that of Scotland. Sir R. ING LIS bad that night presented petitions from Scotland, and in the course of the Session had presented a great number ; and he would venture to state, that there had not been one of them in which it was not stated that one of the things which the petitioners feared was a viola tion of the Act of Union ; indeed, he had no doubt that such an apprehension was very general in Scotland, and that it would be still further expressed. Mr. TRANT also defended the propriety of preserving the Act of Union with Scotland in its original terms ; and hoped the House would pause before it invaded a compact so solemn. For his part, he was happy that the objec tion bad been taken. He felt, indeed, so strong a desire to oppose the Bill for the Relief of the Roman Catholics, that he was determined to take advantage of every argu ment which could be urged against it.—(Hear.). Sir GEORGE MURRAY said, no man had more respect than he had for the principles upon which the Union between this country and Scotland was founded, and he trusted that no man would be found more ready to defend them, or to resist any attempt to infringe upon the honour and interests of his native country.—( Ilear.)—The very reverse of anything of that kind was, however, the foundation of the present measure. That measure was in tended to remove a blemish flow the Legislation of Eng land and of Ireland, and be conceived it would not be for the honour of Scotland if the same blemish was not re moved from the Legislation of that country. It would appear that those who framed the Act of Union with Scot !awl had almost foreseen the alterations which were now about to take place, because by that Act they had ex pressly retained a power of altering all laws connected with their rights and privileges, according to' the policy of civil government. This was the result of a wisdom which 1 ooked to suit the spirit of the times in which they might happen to live, and not in order to find a pretext for persevering in laws of exclusion after they are found to be unnecessary and even detrimental.— In considering the necessity of that repeal, they ought to look at the spirit of the times in which these laws were enacted, and at the spirit which prevailed at the time when it was thought expedient they should be altered. Upon these considerations, he felt that if lie was to oppose this clause, he should not be consulting the interests, or re garding the honour of Scotland.—(Hear, hear.)—One word more. It had been said that those who were about to grant Catholic Emancipation were influenced by feelings of intimidation. Now if it was so, with regard to Ireland, where the Catholics were numerous and united, they surely could not be accused of the same feeling with re gard to Scotland, where the Catholics are few and widely separated. —(Hear, hear.) Mr. LINDSAY having briefly observed, that he thought, in any measure of emancipation, it would be wrong to ex clude Scotland from the operation of the Act, and having at the Fume time expressed his confidence in Ministers— The Gallery was cleared for a division. We under steod, howeve , , that before it took place, Sir Its. MACK INTOSH made a few observations in justification of the clause. As it was agreed by Mr. R. DUNDAS that the division should take place upon the whole clause, in order to avoid a number of divisions, upon particular words, the House divided upon the Question, that the whole clause be left out. Ayes 45 Noes Majority in favour of the Clause... 113 On our return, we found Sir EDWARD KNATCH BULL complaining of the number of verbal alterations introduced into the Bill, and begging to know whether it was the intention 'of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) to have it reprinted with the Amendments? Mr. Secretary PEEL replied, that it was intended to reprint the Bill with the alterations, many of which were quite unimportant. Wherever there was any alteration of sulystancei proposed, be should take care to direct to it the attention of the House. _ _ . Mr. CRIPPS had supported the Bill on its first intro duction; but there was one point on which he should feel it to be his duty to offer his opposition. We under stood the Hon. Member to refer to the clause which ad mitted Roman Catholics to hold, exercise, and enjoy all civil and military offices and places of trust under his Ma jesty, and to express his wish that seats in Parliament should be among the expected offices. Mr. W. HORTON saw no danger in the admission of Members to seats in that House. Indeed the Hon. Mem, ber did not undertake to specify any danger. Sir E. KNATCHI3ULL would specify the danger which he apprehended. The Roman Catholics were known to be under the influence of their Priests, and by o btaining seats in that House, they would be the better enabled to promote the designs and objects of that Priesthood by being admitted to Parliament. He would take this opportunity of asking the Right Hon. Gentleman, if it was his intention to re commit the Bill, or what was the course which he intended to pursue ? Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that it was not his intention to recommit the Bill ; hut, between the Bill passing through the Committee and the bringing up of the Report, he in tended it should be printed. The clause was agreed to without a division. The Right Hon. Gent. then moved an amendment to the next clause, to the effect of pro hibiting any Roman Catholic to hold the office of Guardian Justice of any Regent, or to exercise the office of Regent of this United Kingdom.—The amendment was agreed to without a division. The Marquis of CHANDOS moved an amendment to the effect that the office of the First Lord of the Treasury should be added to the office of Lord Chancellor of England and Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, which are not to be held or enjoyed by any persons otherwise than they are now by law enabled to hold or enjoy the said offices. The Noble Lord thought there was much stronger reason for the Prime Minister not being a Catholic than either the Lord Chan cellor or Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, considering the large share of ecclesiastical patronage which he possessed. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that with respect to the office of First Lord of the Treasury being the Prime Minister, it was not necessary that the First Lord, or Commissioner of the Treasury, and that of Prime Minis ter, should he united. It was frequently the case, cer tainly, that these offices were united ; but the office of Prime Minister was also often united with that of some other Minister of the Government. There was a much better security against the abuse of the Church patronage, than that suggested by his Noble Friend, by the exclusion of Roman Catholics from the office of First Commissioner of the Treasury ; that security would be found in the clause of the Bill which made it penal far any Roman Catholic to advise his Majesty respecting the conferring of ecclesiastical appointments. In the possible event, there fore, of a Roman Catholic being the Prime Minister, he would find himself shorn of all that patronage now sup posed to be the principal appendage of that station ; a cir cusnstanee which, of itself, rendered it highly improbable that be should be called to that station. If provision was made against the abuse of the office, in the event of a Roman Catholic filling it, be thought it unadvisable to infringe upon the principle of the measure, which was equality of civil rights. The Right Hon. Gentleman pro ceeded to remark upon the inconvenience of excluding the Prime Minister from being a Roman Catholic, as that was not a separate office of itself, but was sometimes the Minister of one department and sometimes of another. Lord Chatham had been Prime Ministtr whilst hold. ing the office of Lord Privy Seal; and he had known that his late Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Canning) intended to bold the office of Secretary for Foreign Affairs and Prime Minister. Mr. Canning bad assured him of this, which showed that there was nothing in the office of Prime Minister which made it necessary that it should be held by the First Commissioner of the Treasury more than by any other Minister. The Right Hon. Gent. further said, that the signature of the Secre tary for the Home Department was the one affixed to all the warrants of e cclesiastical appointments, and might be more regarded as connected with ecclesiasti ca l preferments than any other ministerial office. He con c l u -l e d b y sta ti ng , that it was, in his opinion, unnecessary to provide for the danger by a better security than by disqualification, which had been done by the clause prohibiting Roman Catholics to I advise his Majesty upon that subject. Mr. SADLER said, that if they were disposed to in- ....-A , ` fringe upon the Constitution, by throwing open offices which Roman Catholics were hitherto prohibited from filling, they might as well throw open all offices at once .—the Regal Office as well as others.—(Cries of Oh, oh.) In consistency, he thought this should be done. Mr. DUNCOMBE quoted an opinion of Lord Castle reagh's, to the effect, that it was more important and in dispensible that the First Lord of the Treasury should not be a Roman C.itholic than even the Lord Chancellor. Mr. Secretary PEEL said that the difference between the Church patronage exercised by the Prime Minister and that exercised by the Lord High Chancellor and the Lord- Lieutenant of Ireland was, that in the former case the pa tronage was exercised by the influence of his station and of his advice—in the litter instances, the Church patron age of the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Lieutenant was inherent to the offices. They possessed the absolute right of certain ecclesiastical appointments, and were not obliged, like the Prime Minister, to advise his Majesty.—(Hear.) Mr. MOORE did not see how the punishment of a Prime Minister for giving advice on ecclesiastical appoint ments could ever reach him, if he were to give proper ad vice to his Majesty ; for he (Mr. M.) was at a loss to know how the evidence of that advice could be obtained. Sir E. KNATCHBULL thought, to render the amend ment effectual and satisfactory, it would be necessary to extend it to the Privy Council, and to exclude Roman Ca tholics from being Members of the Council. Mr. HUSKISSON said that if Roman Catholics were to be excluded from the Privy Council, it would be neces sary in consistency to go a step farther, *id to exclude them from Parliament; and if they were excluded from both, he would think it inexpedient for him to give any further support to the Bill, for it would be quite unsatis factory and unfit to be passed into a law. He could not consent to the admission of Roman Catholics into that House, and when they were admitted into it, turn round and say to them that they were unfit to be the servants of the Crown..—(Hear, hear.) Mr. SUGDEN said, that the Hon. Member (Mr. Sadler) said that all offices, including the Regal office, might be thrown open to the Catholics, if they were to be admitted to any civil privileges. But the Hon. Member mu,t know that the Regal office was the only one ex cepted at the Revolution, as a principle of the Constitu tion. On the general question Lie would not then enter. He could nut, however, avoid expressing his astonish ment at the doctrine which bad on a recent occasion been maintained by an Hon. Gent., namely, that although the legal right of the Crown might remain, the moral right to it would be affected as soon as the present Bill should pass into a law.—(Cries of " no, no.")—He had heard the Hon. Gentleman make that statement, and a more dangerous doctrine had never been promulgated. Mr. G. BANKES would abstain from entering on the general question, and would confine himself to the argu ments which had grown out of his Noble Friend's propo sition. It had been urged that the office of Prime Mi nister was unknown to the Constitution. That might he true. But they were to look at the way in which public affairs were practically conducted, and to consider what were the actual powers of the Prime Minister. In that view he thought his Noble Friend's proposition highly reasonable. The Right Hon. Gent. had said that the Bill contained provisions which would operate sufficiently as a security against the apprehended evil ; and that a Roman Catholic Prime Minister would be so hampered by those provisions that he could not retain the office. If so, what was the objection to his Noble Friend's Amendment ? He admitted that what had been stated by the Right Hon. Gent. was a security ; but he should like to have both securities. Whether the officers in question were de fined, as the Prime Minister, as the First Lord of the Treasury, or as (to follow the phraseology used in the cor respondence between Mr. Canning and the Duke of Wel lington) the individual having his Majesty's commands to form a Cabinet, he cared not. He should be perfectly satisfied if some specific proposition were adopted on the subject. Mr. BRIGHT said, that the question for the Commit tee to consider was, whether the Prime Minister ought to be allowed to be a Roman Catholic or not ? To him it appeared that he ought not to be so. His object, and that of those who were of his opinion, was to have in the Ca binet some man of whom they might be assured that he was a Protestant. The Noble Lord's amendment might perhaps be differently expressed. Instead of the First Lord of the Treasury, it might be more proper to insert the Se cretary of State for the Home Department. The Presi dent of the Council or the Lord of the Privy Seal was also a most influential Member of the Cabinet. He merely threw out these suggestions, to be ated upon or not, as the Committee might think fit. Mr. Secretary PEEL conceived the clause in the Bill, that no one should give ativii:e to his Majesty on questions of Church patronage, afforded a complete security against the danger alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman. For in stance, it was impossible that the Secretary of State for the Home Department could be a Catholic ; fur to coun tersign Royal warrants for the appointment. of Bishops, ikc., was to give advice to the Crown with respect to Church patronage, and the signature of the Secretary of State to such warrants would be prima facie evidence sufficient fur the purpose contemplated by the Hon. Gent. Mr. S. WORTLEY observed, that by the Bill the Ca tholics were excluded from offices to which Church pa tronage was annexed, or were virtually excluded, by the appointment of a Commission to dispense that patronage, That, in his opinion, was a sufficient security. General GASCOYNE said that the opposers of his Noble Friend's amendment contended that it would be im possible exactly to reach the office of Prime Minister ; that they did not know where it was to be met with. Let it be stated, that whoever had formed the Government should be so considered ; and let a clause be drawn up, prohibiting any Roman Catholic from holding the office of such an individual. He hoped that his Noble Friend would persist in his motion either now or on the Report ; and he trusted the Right Hon. Gentleman, if he resisted this motion, would not persevere in his determination to hurry the Bill through the House. Mr. PEEL would not resist any fair proposition. With respect to the sill, the course which it was his intention to pursue was to propose, that after it had gone through the Committee, the Report should be brought up and prieted, before any further proceeding. Mr. TRANT remonstrated against the delusion practised upon the Catholics, of giving them reason to suppose they might be Ministers of State, when, at the same time, it was impossible that they could even be Privy Councillors— (No, no.).—Did not the Right Him. Gentleman say that it would be monstrous and disgraceful that they should be so 2—(No, no.)—lf not, his ear had cruelly deceived him. Mr. PEEL said, that according to the established usages, the Minister who filled the situation of Prime Minister must have the patronage of the Church. He must advise the Crown with respect to the appointment of Bishops, and so forth. But here was a provision in the Bill, which declared, that no Roman Catholic should so advise the Crown ; and, therefore, although there was no distinct prohibition of a Catholic being Prime Minister, yet the in conveniences which must attend such an appointment ren dered it little probable that the Crown would have a Prime Minister who was a Roman Catholic. As to the terms monstrous and disgraceful, those were little effusions of the Hon. Member for Dover. Mr. TRANT maintained that he had understood the Right lion. Gentleman to use the words that he had mentioned.—(No, no.)—lt appeared to him that the wkole was a mockery. Lord CHAN DOS intimated his intention of persevering in his amendment. Col. DALRYMPLE observed, that as the Secretary of State must countersign the warrant respecting the Church patronage, that was a security that he must be a l'rotestant. Mr. PEEL said, that it was well known that the office of Secretary of State was, as it were, in commission. The division of it among three distinct officers was arbitrary and conventional. The signature of his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War and the Colonies, or the signature of his Noble Friend the Secretary of State for War, would he just as valid to any of the instruments which had been adverted to as his own. The security which the Bill gave was, that the Secretary of State who counter signed the warrants respecting the Church patronage of the Crown must he a Protestant. Mr. BRIGHT complained that the Right Hon. Gent. had not before stated that it was competent to any of the Secretaries of State so to countersign. He wished the country to have the security of a distinct provision on the subject. Mr. PEEL said, that if he had not before entered into the details in question, it was because he had too much respect for the Hon. Gent, to suppose that he was ignorant of them. What he contended was this, that if a Roman Catholic were to attach his signature to any warrant re specting Church patronage, he would, by the Bill, be guilty o f a high misdemeanour. The Committee then divided, For the Amendment 9B Against it 2lB Majority l2O Upon the CHAIRMAN p u tti ng th e ---- question, " that no thing in the Bill cont a i ne d d o exten d to ena ble any per son professing the Roman Catholic religion to exercise the office of Regent of the United Kingdom, or to hold the office of Lord High Chancellor, Lord Keeper, or Lord Commissioner of the Great Seal, or Lord Lieutenant, or Lord Deputy, or other Chi e f G overnor o f Ireland," Sir E. lOATCHBUL - 7: thought it absolutely neces- sary to add an exclusion from the office of Meinher of the Privy Council.—(Cries of " No, no," and " Question.") Mr. MOORE supported the amendment. Sir C. COLE felt himself obliged to support the amend ment, though he would never give up his opinion in favour of the general principle of the Bill. The amendment was negatived without a division. On the CHAIRMAN putting the clause excluding Ca tholics from the office of High Commissioner of the Church of Scotland, Mr. MOORE proposed, by way of amendment, the exclusion of Catholics from the office of Governor, or De puty Governor of Colonies. Mr. TRANT supported the amendment, but amidst so much coughing, that he was inaudible in the gallery. Lord I%IORPETH lamented that he was unable to concur with the Hon. Member for Dover upon this point more than upon every other, but he could not refrain from congratulatin g him on the extent of his patriotic cares, and the far-sightedness of his religious alarms; for, not con tent with endeavouring to secure the Protestantism of Ire land—not satisfied with guarding against the Popery of Europe, the Hon. Member finds food for his jealousy of the encroachments and errors of the Church of Rome in the extreme coasts of Asia, and emulating the example of Cmsar— Imbellem avertit Romanis arcibus Really among the many apprehensions which may consci entiously fill the minds of his Majesty's subjects, it would not have been supposed that any were directed to the ce lebration of the mass in Hindoo places of worship, or the possible elevation of a Brahmin to the college of Cardinals; and it did seem not quite becoming, and hardly just, to manifest this excessive repugnance to the Catholic Church, on the very soil where, whatever may have been her errors in the times and in the places of her temporal domination, she first planted the Christian cross, and proclaimed the truths of the Gospel. But he (Lord Morpeth) could venture to assure the Hon. Member with the utmost confidence, that the Church of England, whose affectionate disciple uo less than the Hon. Member lie professed himself, need not fear in any part of the world a rival, if she would send forth a few more men like the late Bishop Heber, who while we claim for hies a firm faith and more simple doctrine, was not surpassed in zeal and self-devotion by the most cele brated missionaries of that church, from which, through life, he differed, but which he never sought to oppress. Mr. HUSKISSON could net agree with the amend ment. The appointments in the Colonies were on the same footing as those at home. The Church appoint ments in the Colonies were not made by the Civil Gover nors, but by the Bishops, or by the Secretary of State, in conceit with the Bishops or Archbishops at home. By the present state of the law, the governing of the colonies was made so difficult and inconvenient, that had the pre sent Bill not been brought in, it would have been neces sary to make some alteration in the law. Three of our colonies contained a population entirely Catholic, and it was absolutely necessary that Catholics in these colonies should be admitted to the Councils of the Government. Mr. C. W. W. WYNN wished to inform the Hon. Member for Dover (Mr. Trant) that the provision which his amendment contained was already included in one of the clauses of the Bill. Lord F. L. GOWER was more unwilling to carry the principle of exclusion into the Colonial Department than into any other. The Hon. Member's amendment was unnecessary, as ecclesiastical appointments in the colonies were not in the gift of the Governors, who, moreover, were appoiated, generally, in reward for former civil services. Mr. TRANT said that Christianity. had been preached in India lung before a Pope had been thought of. Mr. STANLEY said that the Bill did not extend to India, as appointments in that country were not in the gift of the Government but of the Company. Lord ASTLEY said, that to carry his views into execu tion, the lion. Member for Dover must go much further, and exclude Catholics from the Indian Directory. Mr. TRANT explained. _ _ After which the original Clause was carried. The CHAIRMAN then put the Clause admitting Roman Catholics to he Members of Lay Bodies Corporate, which, after a few observations from Colonel SIBTHORrE, was carried without a division. The next Clause was put ; and, after a few words from the SOLICITOR-GENERAL, Mr. G. Moons, and Mr. Secre tary PEEL, agreed to. Colonel SIBTHORPE said a few words which were altogether inaudible in the gallery. Mr. Secretary PEEL objected to the Hon. Member's suggestion. Mr. JEPHSON made a few observations which were inaudible in the gallery. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that some Hon. Members appeared anxious to have securities against the Ecclesiasti cal Patronage which the Roman Catholics might acquire when hold:ng offic,, ; now he proposed, that in such cases the patronage should devolve upon the Archbishop of Can terbury.—(Hear, hear.) After a few words from Mr. ESTCOURT, the motion was put end carried. Mr. G. MOORE objected to Roman Catholics being permitted to advise his Majesty in certain cases. Mr. TRANT addressed the House amidst cries of " Oh ! oh ! Spoke, spoke." After a few words from Mr. Secretary PEEL and Sir R. Ixo Lis, the clause was agreed to. Several clauses were read and agreed to without dis cussion. On the clause prohibiting the Roman Catholic Clergy from assuming the name of any Province, See, or Deanery, under the penalty of 1001. Sir R. INGLIS wished to know whether the penalty was to become due for every day that the title was as sumed ? The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, that every time the title was assumed, its assumption would be a distinct offence. _ _ _ Mr. PEEL, in answer to a question whether the Clause extended to Scotland, said that the Catholics never affected to assume clerical titles in that country, where the Catholic Clergy were only Vicars Apostolic, having Bishoprics in other places. The Marquis of CHANDOS proposed that the clause should be altogether omitted, as useless, after political power was conceded. Mr. TRANT supported the proposition. Mr. PEEL observed, that its omission would he thought a great scandal, and the clause was then agreed to. On the clause that the Roman Catholic Clergy should be prevented, under a penalty of 50/., from wearing their eccle siastical dress, except in their chapels or in private houses, Colonel SIBTHORPE wished the word private omitted. Mr. PEEL said, the law was proposed to be the same as in 1791, and the clause, besides being a satisfaction to the religious feeling of the Protestants, was introduced with the full assent and concurrence, and, indeed, at the desire of the Catholic Prelates. The only exception permitted the Clergy to wear their dress at the burial service. The Clause was agreed to. Mr. HOULDS WORT H wished to know, whether there was any provision against the appointment of a Catholic Chaplain by a Catholic Speaker of the House of Com mons ? And whether there was any to prevent the ap pointment of Catholic Chaplains to men-of-war? This was a matter of great importance. Mr. PEEL said, that this Act made no alteration in the present law with respect to Captains and Chaplains of men-of-war. By the law as it now stood a Catholic might command a 71. As to appointing a Roman Ca tholic Chaplain to the Speaker of the House of Commons, it would be time enough to attend to that when it was proposed to elect a Roman Catholic Speaker. He could assure the House, that should it recommend a Catholic Speaker, the Crown would not attend to the recommend ation. As to Chaplains of men-of-war, the law made no alteration in this circumstance. The Admiralty might now appoint a Roman Catholic Chaplain, but the rule was to appoint neither Roman Catholics nor Presbyterians. After a few words from the SOLICITOR-GZNEAAL and Sir E. KNATCHBULL, the Clause was agreed to. The next Clause relating to burials in Ireland was agreed to without remark. On reading the Clause relating to the Jesuits and other Societies bound by religious vows, Mr. MONCK objected to it, as more severe than the Act of Elizabeth.. He wished also to ask, if this clause were to apply to the Knights of Malta? He would like also to be informed if members of religious societies in tended only for charitable purposes, were to be included in this clause ? He would suggest to the Right Hon. Gentleman some words, excepting religions charitable societies. Mr. S. RICE regretted that a Bill for granting relief should contain new disabilities and new penalties. He denied that the monastic clergy could do any injury to the Constitution of this country, and he should rather see the clause omitted altogether. In Ireland, also, there were societies bound by a religious vow fur conducting educa tion. Such societies educated several thousand children. Ile should propose to insert the words " not being lay persons." He thought the dangers imaginary, the pe nalty severe; and that a republication of the letters of Pascal would be more effectual than the clause, to beat down the Jesuits. Lord STANLEY would not recommend an amend ment of the clause, but he could not allow the clause to pats without protesting against it, end bearing his testi molly to the good conduct of the Jesuits of a religioui este' blishment in the county he was connected with.' • Mr. W. WYNN regretted, like his Hon. Friend, the i , necessity for a clause of this kind. There was on e - part 0 5 the clause to which he particularly objected—tbat which related to members of religious societies coming i n to tbie country. He saw no power given by the Bill to suspend the operation of this Bill ; and let the House suppose that one of the Members of the Order of Benedictines, who had done so much for the study of antiquities, or inch a mss as Angelo Mai, wanted to come to this country for literof purposes, would it not be hard that such a man should be debarred from coming into this country? He thought the Secretary of State should be entrusted with a power to dir pense with this clause. Mr. P. THOMPSON did not concur with his Hop' Friends in their opinions ; and he thought that nothing but good would result from suppressing the Jesuits and the Societies for educating the people of Ireland. Mr. LABOUCHERE disliked the Jesuits as much as the Member for Dover; but he thought as long as British subjects conducted themselves legally, the principle of not meddling with their freedom ought not to be violated. 0 objected strongly to the clause, and nothing could sewn' cile him to it. There was not, he thought a single Mew, bar of that House who would not blush to tell a karma Monk that he could not come to England. In particals e he had tasted of the hospitality of the Monks of St. Tier nard, and he hoped that, at least, they would not be ir eluded in the clause ; and he should approve of giving 0 the Secretary of State a power to suspend its operation. 11 would be discreditable to the character of the country, ° only those who professed religious views were to be es' eluded from living in this country. Mr. PEEL hoped the House wonid bear in mind tbe necessity of giving satisfaction to the people of England, who were opposed to the Catholics. Monastic orders bee never been allowed to possess the same privileges in tide country as the secular Clergy. Other countries weft equally jealous of admitting the Jesuits into their dorni' Mons. The struggles in France to which the Hon. Melo' ber referred, were also occasioned by the Jesuits trying t° monopolize the education of the people. If the Jeetli° banished from other countries found a refuge here, 06 sliould be exposed to much worse consequences than FOP, man Catholic countries. H e knew that some Jesuits had lately come to this country, provided with funds to ests' 'dish seminaries here, for education, which had excited ° deep feeling of distrust. There was a necessity, therefore , of giving the power to prevent such things, and this wee given by the clause. The Jesuits' establishment, S i Stoneyhurat, was contrary to the policy of this country.-" The Act of 1791 ;prohibited the establishment of fuel' seminaries with large funds ; and if, by the interve°' tion of secret trusts, the present law had been set aside , there was a necessity for some new provision. The exist' ence of Monastic Orders was not necessary for the put' poses of the Roman Catholic Church. Moreover, the lad permitted those who were now here to remain on regir tering themselves within six months. There were o bjet' tuns to secret obligations in civil society, and he did not know why religious v o ws should n o t be regarded wi o equal jealousy. He did not deny that it was unwise 01 interfere with a man's religion ; but it had always bee° the policy of the law to be jealous of Monastic Orders? and it would be better that the authorities should mee t the Legislature half way, and consent to the restriction to be placed on these societies. He supported the clause a ° necessary. Lord SANDON knew of no instance but that of th e despotism of Russia, where an individual under such ! circumstances, would be excluded from the protection ° the State. Mr. li. GRATTAN contended that the Jesuits wer e the friends and not the enemies of social order. Mr. LESLIE FOSTER approved of the clause as t l stood, and thought that every proper degree of forbearanc e had been shewn by the framers of the Bill towards Mem' hers of Monastic Institutions. Sir R. WILSON suggested that g power of Haase ought to be given to the Secretary of State, that lit might under special circumstances enable members 0 , Monastic Orders to reside temporarily in this country, they were driven to it by shipwreck or other unaccount , able circumstances, or if any other good reason could be assigned. Mr. HUSKISSON entirely agreed in the principle ei endeavouring to suppress Monastic Institutions, and esr chilly the Jesuits, and he therefore rejoiced that such a pre; vision as that now under consideration had been introduce°, into the Bill. No society, like that of the Jesuits, bone ° by secret engagements, and paying implicit obedience to e foreign power, could be sanctioned by the policy of AM, country, and if all o w e d, l ie b e li eve d th a t they would exteria, very rapidly. H e did no t o bj ec t th a t individuals boon ( ' themselves by vows, but that they formed themselves jute communities and endeavoured to increase and multiply. (Laughter.)—He was not afraid of one or two individual s residing temporarily in this country, and for that reason be wished that the Secretary of State should have the powe r under special circumstances to give permission to person , of that description to reside in the country for a limited time. Mr. TRANT said that this part of the Bill wa s the only one that offered any thing like security. A !Me g deal might be said upon the point, and in order to give en opportunity for argument, he would move an adjournment. . l o icE ) no t tLt l i t ln r ioi o ,b, s u wsi g et l ruw i v w eoi dt i nh t ,. h o i t uti h ae e ftma ß tbi tine i ge l ru l e to-night. Lord UXBRIDGE thought that it would be mace —b m e Commons o tt r Nei n better o. n :Po g aEg began a i l n as w f il t o o u en r be o t r h y e e fi r g ri we ri by midnight, although, perhaps, they had not arrived tt n ,.. nine o'clock. For the first two hours after the busi""" upon this Bill began there were not more than 60 or 10 Members present, and, of course, those who only took Po' in the proceeding after nine o'clock could hardly be swor e of what had or had not been done in the interval. It won't' , he thought, be much more satisfactory to ge through the Committee, even if it occupied until two or three in the . morning. Already the Committee upon it had occu p ied two days : and as to the clause before the House, the Prin ciple of it was not objected to even by the Hon. Member for Dover. Throughout he (Mr. Peel) had been anzioll to listen attentively to all that that Hon. Gentleman, atut his friends who thought with him, could advance against the further progress of the Bill. Mr. TRANT added, that be was not dtsirous of throw .. ing in the way of the measure any needless impediment. Sir E. KN.ATCHBULL asked the Right Hon. Gentle' man what course of proceeding he recommended as Ito th e future stages of the measure? Mr. PEEL replied, that he hoped there would be to objection to bringing up the Report pro in order that the Bill, as amended , mi g ht be p rinted ; he should propose that that Rep ort be taken into further . consideration on Friday, and tha t the third readin g shoul d fixed for Monday, leaving the int e r v al of Saturday sod Sunday. forma to-night , Mr. BANKES very much wished that Tuesday ehould be named for the third reading. He knew that there wer e many who thought that the Bill did not go far enough witb reference to the Jesuits and Monastic orders , b ut he .had no intention of taking part in the discussion to-night: Personally to himself, and to some others, Tuesday would be more convenient for the third reading.—(Why? WitY —Monday was a supply day, and he had to bring forwar., the grant for the British Museum.—(Laughter.)--He did not wish to be pertinacious on the subject, and, perhap s ' the vote for the Museum might be brought on on Friday , The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that no doubt the grant for the British Museum was a matter of importance, but not of moment. He thought that it might be proposed on Friday, in the Committee of Supply' and he saw no reason why it should occupy more than five minutes at the utmost, even with the speech of the How Member for Dorset. Colonel SIBTHORPE deprecated haste, and wished for an opportunity to present further petitions, which he knelt/ would be sent up from the country: Lord MILTON hoped that the Hon. Member for D or set would be content to bring in the Vote for the Museett i prior to th e f ur th e r consideration of the Report on 02 ' Roman Catholic Relief Bill. ! i! - Mr. S. RICE, in order not to delay the Committee, withdrew the Amendment of which he bad given noti ce ' until a future stage. The question was then put and the clause was carried Mr. W. HORTON inquired whether it was likely •th ar Ministers would consent to any modification of the ciao° on bringing up the Report. • Mr. PEEL could not promise more than to con sider the proposition, without at all pledging himself to add' 1; it. He could not, without :the greatest reluctance, 2, interfere with the existing regulations in the Bill re latiP) to Monastic Societies. If a power of license were given t° the Sccrenry of State, it ought to be placed under stroll restrictions ; and Parliament ought to have cognizance Ot every instance of the kind. First of all, the power' ottO only to be confided in a Protestant Member of the GoverP,' went ; next, the license ought to be only for a very Emile(' period, and in cases of emergency, or where the puree was merely literary or scientific. The most effectual guard ° ought to accompany such a power, and One of those g oer & must be the cognisance of the Act by Parliament. Lord NUGENT wished the general rule to rettutin ) r now stood in the Bill ; the exception might be 'the :pow'