The Sun. — London, England, 1858-03-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON SATURDAY EVENING MARCH l3, 1858 -------------- to the period when the late Government re- regardthis dance tap i had been done by hispredecessors in to report. ! first question he asked on assuming . o ffi ce was, what tired. (flear. hear.) Mr. MILNES suggested that the case which hadibeen , I He learned that Lord Panmure . , immediately on . receiv laid before the late law o ffi cers of the Crown, together iin the draft report, had appointed four committees to the w ith their opinion, should also be presented to t he house. cons id er different points referred to. He was autho rized on the'part of the Government to state that they ( Hear.) would Der. S. FITZGERA.LD said the right hon , gentlemen not hesitate to call on t he house to vote such were necessary to carry out the improve (M.r. Gladstone) uttered nothing but the trut h when he suemasts" geted. (Hear.) said that her Majesty's Government had no rea son what- The tio ever on their own account to decline the pro duction of m s m u o gg n that the house at its rising do ad j ourn to Monday was then agreed to. any paper] which would give any in formation to NAVY ESTIMATES. the house. Since the present government came into office there were he thought but two p a p ers which at all . came under the notice of his departm ent. One of these On the motion for going into C ommittee on the Navy Estimates, mentioned that one of these men was discharged from Mr. W. WILLIAMS said a motion stood in his • prison and placed under the British Consul ; the other name for referring the army and navy estimates to a contained the instructions which w ere sent to Mr. Lyons, As the right h on. g entleman bad and which were to guide him in his communications t with se ated that it lect commit was tee. on ly intended o n the p resent occasion the Neapolitan government. These being the only two papers in which the present go vernment were at all con- to move for certain sum s on account, and had asked the s house not to enter up on the general discussion, he would cerned, any disinclination on their p art to produce these papers could not arise from any fear of the result to them from the- production of these pape rs. The only not bring f or ward his mot ion at this time. He wished objection that existed to the p roduction of these papers to state, however , that the estimates for the army and was that they would really put the house in possession navy were the largest that had ever been submitted to of no information which they were net already possessed parliament since the termination of the French war, with of. With regard to the production of the opinion of the the exception of the two or three years of the Crimean law officers of the crown, he believed that would be quite contrary to par liamentar y usa g e. ( Hear.) if, war . (Hear, hear.) General CODRINGTON expressed a hope that some however, on looking over the papers he found there were any which would give further information to the house, thing would be done to raise the compensation given to her Majesty's government would be most willing to pro - the staff officers for the deprivation of servants. The duce them. (Hear.) n. sm of ls. a-day in England and ls. 6d. in the colonies The Lord J. RUSSELL regretted that the ans wer of T he was too li ttle for the labour necessary to take care of the hon. gentleman was so unsatisfactory. ( Hear.) d ie . horses. He ho question was one which could not the n be fairly pad the Secretary for War would take cussed, but they could discuss what were the mean s . by the matter into consideration and raise the amount, and which they could obtain information to guide the judg said, also give the option of employing soldier servants when meat of the house. (Hear.) The hon. gen tleman t civilians could not be found. and said quite accurately and in accordance d op inion the of the law officers of the crown. But nothing was more Estimates. usual than to produce the letter of the Secretary of State Sir J. PAKINGTON said,—l rise to move the first or the Under Secretary of State, which was generally a mere vote on the Navy Estimates, but before doing so I beg echo of the opinion of the law officers. There were two to important questions involve d in this matter. One was express my acknowledgments to the hon. me mber for Lambeth for the courteous manner in whic h he as to the capture of the Cag liari, wh et her i t was made in Neapolitan waters or on the high seas, and the other as has waived the motion of which he had g iven to theltreatment of the prisoners. As to the first of notice, and which he had a perfect right to bring these questions, the hon. gentleman informed them that forward. I hope also that the urgency of the occa in the opinion of the law , officers whatever claim the aw • n will induce the honourable member for Dover (Mr. Sardinian Government might found on the fact that the Osborne) to waive the course which he indicated in his capture of the vessel took place on the high seas, and speech he would take on going into Supply unless some not on the waters within the Neapolitan jurisdiction, the statement was given of the policy of the Government. 111 , itish Government could found no claim on it. If the The hoi. gentleman has been of late years so little in the opinion went to this, that the vessel was a Sardinian, habit of addressing the house—(hear, and laughter) — and under that flag, the British Government could make that he now seems to have forgotten what is the usual no claim on her, he (Lord J. Russell) fully. assented ; but mode of designating the members to whom he wishes to if the Sardinian Government had a claim to the vessel, allude, and therefore I had some difficulty in making out and if it contained two British subjects who had been who the gentlemen was to whom he referred a short time captured and detained in direct violation of the law of ago. (A laugh.) lam inclined to believe, however, nations, no one oould persuade him t hat the British Go that he did me the honour to refer to myself, and to some vernment ought not to support the Sardinian Govern observations which I made elsewhere. The hon. gen ment in its demands, and bring the power, the resources, tleman had little ground, I think, for making the com and the name of Great Brila'n to the aid of the weaker state. (Hear.) With regard to the other question—the plaint that the present Ministry had made no statement whatever of their policy. That statement has been made treatment of the two prisoners—he must say that, even most distinctly in another place, by the noble earl at the supposing the capture to be lawful, the treatment of the head of the Government. A very full statement has also two erg nears went far beyond what was necessary for been made by my right ,hon. friend the member for safe custody ; the time had been unnecessarily protracted, Buckinghamshire. I availed myself of a similar oppor and their treatment had been unnecessarily harsh, severe, tunity likewise to make a statement, and other members and cruel. Even supposing the Neapolitan Govern of the Government have done the same. (Hear.) I really mont had a prima facie case for their imprisonment, it think, therefore, that if my right hon. friend (Mr. was not justified in treating them in such a way as that Disraeli) had now given us a repetition of what has been one had lost his health and the other had lost his reason. The right hon. gentleman had expressed confidence as to so fully made known, the hon. member for Dover would have been the first to complain so great a waste of the the result of the trial ; he (Lord J. Russell) had no con • time of the house. (Hear.) The state of public business fidence in the justice of their treatment before the trim' , renders it desirable we should have some grant of money nor in the justice of the court before which they were to on account. The house has already been made aware of be brought. (Hear.) He knew perfectly well it was the necessities for doing so, and I acoordingly rise to move not an unusual course for the Neapolitan government, the first of a series of votea for the navy. I have to state, when it found any spirit of independence or regard for in the first place, that the votes on account with which I law on the part of a judge, to change that judge, either shall conclude are founded entirely on the estimates of the previous to or during the trial, and he would not be late Government. My right hon. friend stated the rea surprised if the Government, wishing these men to be son why it is essential that we should ask the house for convicted, should find a judge not likely to do so, that this vote immed.atay ; but I hope the house will bear in he should be changed to one more subservient, mind that I have succeeded too recently to the arduous His noble friend, the late head of the Government, did and important office which I hold, to be able to come for not defend the Neapolitan government ; and whatever ward at once on the part of the Government with a dis course the new Government might think it necessary to tinct and definite opinion with regard to the estimates adopt, he (Lord J. Russell) hoped they were not ready of our predecessors for the maintenance of the navy. to make an admission that they considered everything (Hear, hear.) I am bound to admit that I have done by the Neapolitan government was in strict accord received every possible courtesy from the right hon. pen sane with justice, and that it was necessary to enforce tleraan the member for Halifax (Sir C. Wood), my lin on them those principles of justice whish our Govern ment and other governments considered it due to them- mediate predecessor in office, ands that my right hon. selves to maintai n . H e hop e d that the hon. gentleman friend has given me every explanation that was neces opposite and the noble lord at the head of the Foreign- sary to enable use to proceed with the duties the die office would lay on the table of the house all the papers charge of which I have undertaken. Bnt, notwithstancl which it was possible to produce, including the despatch ing that assistance, if I were to state upon the present of Count Cavour and say from Sir J. Hudson in sup- occasion the policy of the Government, instead of fulfil port of it. Before he sat down he wished to refer to ling the duty which it is incumbent upon me to discharge, the request made to him by the hon. member for North I should be guilty of an act of folly and presumption Warwickshire to put off the Oaths Bill, which was fixed which could not fell to deserve and to receive the cen for Wednesday. That was the only day he had, and he sure of the house, considering how elaborate and im certainly should not postpone the committee. (Hear) portant those navy estimates. (Hear.) Undoubtedly, it The an y hon. gentlema n m i g ht ma k e hi s mo ti on at other would be in my power to come down to this house to stage of the b i ll, b u t h e cer t a i n ly wou ld b r i ng it La- declare that we had adopted the estimates of the late ward on Wednesday. Government for the whole year, and to shelter myself P Mr. RIDLEY s a id th a t w ith regar d t o th e p roduct and the Government under the course which the la te tion of the opinion of the law officer officers, he might that Government ado p ted. But we do not think t his the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. S. Fitzgeral3) that wou ld b e either an advisable or p ro p er course. when the China papers were laid on the table, the opi- daring the present state of public sisals and the demand Lion of the Queen's Advocate was also given. upon the resources of the navy which the state of affairs Mr. B. OSBORNE (who, on rising, was received with is China and India has created—considering, too, what derisive cheers and laughter from all sides of the lieu ;e) all parties in this house must admit, the necessity on said he did not wish to stand between the house and the every ground of prulence and propriety that the navy at business of the evening. He agreed with the right home and in our own ports should be maintained in an hon. gentleman the member for Oxfordshire that until effective state, the house will think that the Government the papers were produced they were not in a state to are only taking a proper course when we announce our discuss the question ; and he was far from blaming the intention to take votes on account for four months, founded upon the estimates of the late Government. At present Government, but he must he allowed to express his surprise and regret that the two questions put by his the later period of the session I shall move the remain hon, friend the member for Richmond and the member ing estirriaton and I will then state the views of her Ma ter the King's County had not been treated with the jesty's Ministers, ana move those estimates upon the re. courtesy vouchsafed to !the hon. member for Bridport. ponsibility of the existing Government. This is the He did not think it would have been at all unnatural course which we think it our duty to take, and which when a Government c am e i n t o p ower , or rather into we are more inclined to fellow on account of the very office—(laughter)— uee l er such peculier ercemstencee, large estimates that we find were prepared by the late Government. It would be inceneitset with;lie anneunce if some account had been given to the house of the meat I now make to go into details, butl will state the policy which they intended to pursue. He believed such leading points which justify the course which I propose to had always been the case, even when the head of the take on the part of the government. We observe not unna - Government happened to have a seat in another place ; turally the difference between the amount of the navy for any explanation of policy given them was not consti tutionally before this house. (Hoar.) He was much estimates for 1858-9, prepared by the late Government , and the amount of the same estimates in 1852-3, when surprised to see the hon. gentleman resume his seat my colleagues and myself were in office during the Go without giving any answer, even to the amiable language vernment ef Lord Derby. In the year 1852-3 the gross which be so much insisted on, to the questions of the ' amount of the estimates for the service of the navy was hon. members for Richmond an d Kings County. The 6,705,746/. I find that the gross amount o f the nav y hon. gentleman had intimated his intention to call for a estimates for 1858-9, including the packet service , is large vote an credit and asked for the utmost forbear- • once of the house. As an hon. member he (Mr. B. 10,128,6151., the difference between the two years being Osborne) would give every assistance in carrying on 3,422,8691., or in round figures not less than 50 per cent. . public business, but at the same time, when the hon. lam quite aware that there are many circumstances gentleman made such are neat he thou ght it would i which explain this large difference between the navy q, have been but respectful to the house , an d still more to estimates of 1852.3 and those of 1858-9. In th e fi rs t n- place the war with Russia led to au enormous i ncrease the country, if he had given some progra mme of his i of the navy estimates. lam bound next to re f er t o th e tention before be asked for money. He would not p ress war with China, or I might rather call it our quar re l the subject at that moment , as t he hon. g entleman had with Commissioner Yell already spoken twice, but before he aske d for mone y he increase in these 'estim at e s . which has also led to a grea t The house will also b ear i n would have time to make up his mind as to what his mind the great increaseof s t eamships, the great expe nses future pulley would be ;as yet the hou s e k new nothin g incurred in the dockyards i n consequence of that in . of it. They had just beard that the Government crease, and the recent transfer of the ' Coastguard ser v i ce had succeeded to the inheritance of the noble lord's from the Customs to the Admiralty, which go in a great foreign policy with regard to Naples, but he did not d t o differ ence between know bow far the house would be satisfied with that. d egree account f or this enormous (Hear, hear.) As far as he could see some painful min • the estimates of 1 e 2-3 and 1853-9 t . a t, efor however, I com pare the estimates now upon t he h 1853-9 with conceptions were likely to arise with Naples. The right he estimates for the present year of 1351-3 ; here again hon. gentleman had taken credit for utti an end to painful misconceptions, which, however, p had n existed in I find a very large increase, which I teink imposes upon his own fertile imagination, ' for until the right hon. gun- me the duty of carefully investigating its causes. (Hear, tleman was not went on th e h ust i ngs at Aylesbury he (Mr. B. hear.) I will first take the di ff ere nce in the number of Osborne) sewer with regard to prance, o f It would b e hut ' any misconceptions existing men. The number of men voted for t he current year, 1857-8„ e , was —offieers seamen, and boys for the fleet, d f or a supply to gramme of e b ecom i ng in 31,000; for surveying, store, and troop ships , 20,000 ; the right hon. gentlem an w h en h e ask be prepared to givesome pro what his intended for the Coastguard service, 5,700 • making a total of measures were. Until he did so the h ouse oug ht not to 38 700 men. To these may be added 15,00 0 marines, , and the estimates submitted to; the house by the late grant one shilling. (Hear, hear.) It was his intentio n to use the utmost forbearance, and the most amiable Government this time twelvemonth amounted to a. language towards the government. He believed the right gross total of 53,700 men. At a later period of the hen. gentleman who repreeen ted Buckinghamshire would, session, however, in the month of July, the late Go if he had it his own way, be as good a reformer, and as vernment came down and proposed a supplementary advanced a liberal as any man in the house. Elie could estimate of 2,000 men, which made a gross total of only get rid of three or four of his colleagues, including 55,700 men for the year. In the estimates now on the head of the administration, he would be sure to ob- the table for 1818-9 the number of men is very con fain the support of the liberal party, but to do so he siderabiy in increase of that estimate. The number e should considerably weed his own party. There was a of officers, seamen, and boys for the fleet is put down at t: right hon. gentleman (Sir J. Pakington) sitting next to 35,000 ; for surveying, troop, and store ships the num - the right hon. gentleman whom he was reported to have her is the same as last year—namely, 2,000 ; but for converted Coastguard service the number is increased from 5,700 to his opinions on the Jew Bill, and if he to 7,380. The number of marines is the same, viz., would, through him, give the house some assurance that 15,1100, for both years, but the general result of the when he called on it for a grant of money on credit h© woulda thel number of men proposed by the late Government to be beprared to give astatement of the intentio iel voted for next year is 59,380 men. Tee difference in government, he (Mr. Osborne) would be pre pared to listen and grant the money, but if that was men between the original estimate of the two years not done ha therefore stands thus :—There is an increase of 4,900 in ourable would feel it his duty, when the right hon the down to ask for a vote, to call the vote for officers, seamen, and boys for the fleet, and attention to thean additions o the Coastguard of 1,680, being a ' g ross anent had sineceed2m to stances under which the go vern-increase of ,630 men for next year as compared with to place himself or right office. He should be sorry thethe original estimate for the current year. If, however, position. He felt that th e venee'oss, gentleman in that we add the men voted in July the difference between right hon. gentleman came into power under such circumstances the two years will be 3,630 men. lam bohnd to add difficult task for him to decieonh it must be a that at the present moment this increase of men is, in measures. Th e right hon. gentleman who sat next hi m 's had my opinion, absolutely necessary—(" Hoar, hear," possible for twelvetoldhirstnlen;n stitaents it Wai not humanly into offic e to make up their from Sir C. . Napier) — and I will show it to the house in teen gentlemen coming 13 a : - this way :—The total number of men and boys voted minds. He (NIL Osborne) would be content if the right hon. gentleman would only tell them his to iod when it was of to declare as year or t e service of the navy, including the sup plementary vote of July, amounted to 35,000. The humanly possible he could make up his r po icy. If that was not done, he should have some number men and boys borne in men-of-war and ves sels in commission by the return of last February was te te • . versation with his right hon. friend the member for Jkalaton under L es ee ,„ dra . nte L ,Vne, who knew so well how to draw 35,915. So that the number of men in commissioned ships was 915 in excess of the number voted by Podia telsee;,,,,,, m a ns ° f see whether he could not meat during the year. The marines, however, fell short The statement made by a noble hat es Z, t f o rcing the right hon, gentleman to lord in anothe r pl . of the number voted by Parliament, and the general re the house or the e ' ce Qcluld suit is that, including seamen and marines, the number , not, an d of men last February exceeded by 860 the number voted The subject th:t o l t" d i r - gP,,, d ought not to satisfy by Parliament during the year. If, however, the nuue- SANITARY STATE see , e , berg were raised to the fall complement, so that all the Mr. LAURIE, who had --- 1-11 - - ARMY tof the ships in commission were fully manned, in addition to td call the attention of theallevoe4 notice hi 3 I ntenticli the ' i3.. present excess of 860 men, we should still require commissioners on the sanitary house to tlae T 6 , a 5 men, showing a total excess above the men and boys voted in 1357-8 of 2,216. (Hear.) state of t e,„, Poi' cially to the portion that r.fers to the Foot Guard, "a-Well, sir, the Portman -str ee t nor; iltnth:osi.ernetirtes should be agreed to, the f able prepared by the late Government tared in the metropolis, said that after he bar" oar estimates on fo __ ~ . Sear show an excess of only 2,000 dth - read th e "T next report lately presented he had visited Barracks to judge for himself. He found 20 men bud• m an e d n i a f n the ships ere requir e nes were folly manned, we should still number of men • nisei' I mention this the estimate , : of the late oflee voted, 1 died together in a small room. The air was so vitiated I'm Governmentm" 'n're than there quiremen " of -- exce" but a that the total • \ir i t ir somewhattosho w that ehor short the f find to the amount that be wag glad to beat a retreat, He was, however, fur 1858 informed the room was far preferable to others. He felt of money proposed t t . l ( lT ''` v v . mated expenditure the preseet convinced that the statements in the report must attract the attention of the authorities. Since he came into the I 'mg the packet service, is 9,172 year, oi 1857-8, ant i he bad learned that the right hon. gentleman .the ' , member for. Wiltshire (Mr. S. Herbert) intended to bring estimates on the table exceed this s9 e -..! l r ha grou l a nc t - e l3 t d a - 1 I have mentioned thes e l forward a motion on the subject. He, therefore, would jug to, for 1853-9, 10,123,6151., beii7j oe T e e x a c ti l ai,intetent not further trespass on the house than to express his cc /1' ;preve nt year of 956,0251. the viction that no parsimony would be allowed to stand in , show to . that the present Government are onlytakgitiree the way, but that they would cheerfully vote any stun i Proper course when, under preasare of oar r eiition n , g w a e , that might be required to secure the comfort of the ! 0 . 1 ; oily ask thehouse upon soldiers. ' the est i mates of the late Government. I will Onto more . Gem PEEL could assure the hon, gentleman that the appeal to my own personal position. In consequence of the forms in making out the patents of the new Board of Admiralty the present Board did not commence their sittings until Tuesday last, and it would be idle to sup pose that any Board of Admiralty could in three days make themselves masters of all the complicated details of these estimates in such a manner as to justify their pretending to deliver opinions upon them. Before the four months have expired we shall be prepared, upon our own responsibility, to state what we think those estimates ought is be. But in making this statement I wish to guard myself against two possible misapprehen sions. Ido not wish to be understood that lat all in tend to hold out to the house that there is now on the part of the Government any fixed opinion that it is likely they will be able to propose any reduction in these esti mates. (Hear.) I wish to reserveto the Government the most unfettered diecretion, that they may investigate these estimates and then come down to the house and state what they think ought to be done. I deem it equally doe to the late Government to disavow the least intention of implying, from having mentioned these figures, any censure on them, or of leading the house to suppose, from the limited experience I have as yet had, that there is the least reason to think that either with regard to the amount of force or the amount of vetes the late Government have been negligent of the inte rests of the country. With this brief statement, I beg to submit to the committee the first vote, which is, the number of men for the navy. The right hon. baronet concluded by moving that 59,380 men and boys be em ployed in the sea and coastguard service for four months ending the 31st July, including 15,000 Royal Marines. Sir C. NAPIER wa s happy to find that the late Go vernment bad at last come to their senses, and increased the number of men in the navy, for he could assure the house that last year Parliament had too much reduced that force. The suggestion which he made last year, and which was then pooh-poohed, to put the blockships in an efficient state, was now to be adopted. He would suggest that somechange relative to the coast volunteers was desirable. There was a distinction between them and the Coastguard. The Coastguard were all seamen, but the coast volunteers only entered their names to be called on for temporary service, and were not fit to man the British navy. He regretted to see by the papers that the house and the country were told we could blookade an enemy's Forts in the course of a week. It was all very well to talk in that wa y , but they might depend upon it we could do nothing of the sort. When ships were manned they must be disciplined, and in his opinion coast volunteers were not fit for the service. He would also suggest the propriety of increasing the num ber of marines from 15,000 to 20,000. There was great difficulty in getting proper soldiers, as was evident from the miserable children of 15 or 16 years who were en listed and were to be seen daily in the streets. He did not knew why, but the army was not so popular a ser vice as the marines. The marines were much better men, and they could take the seaports, thereby relieving troops of the duty and being ready at once to go on board ship in the event of war, when their places could be filled by the militia. Lord Panmure had said that he had no objection to give up the seaports to the =oho, if the House of Commons thought proper to increase the nnmber. He would not support the hon. member for Lambeth in his motion for a committee on the estimates, but he should rejoice to see an address to her Majesty voted, praying fora commission to inquire in to the manage ment of the navy. Until they gave up the system of in creasing the number of ships without any cause in one year, and paying them off in the year f ollowin g , it was impossible they could have a thorough and efficient navy. Ships were only fitted out for three years, when they could just as well be fitted out for five years, anclthe waste of money was not so much upon men and provisions as upon materials. The First Lord cf the Admiralty bad 10 councillors—five at Somerset-house and five at the Ad miralty. Those gentlemen, whether from jealousy or some other cause, seldom agreed, and of the number were re duced the work would he done a great deal better, and at less expense. He would not throw any obstacles in the way of the estimates being voted ; but, on the contrary, would do everything possible to keep the navy in proper strength, because he did not think that affairs at the present moment were in a state to justify any nezligence. Mr. W. WILLIAMS thought the present Govern ment were taking too long a time in requiring fear months before introducing their own estimates. 11l allowing them to have this vote without opposition, he wished it to be distinctly understood that when he came to propose to refer the estimate to a select committee he did not expect to be met by the argument that the house had already voted a third part of them. He bad always been an advocate for maintaining the efficiency of the navy ; and the conduct of the men under Captain Sir W. Peel showed they were capable of performing the most glorious achievements. (Hear, bear.) The expenditure fer the army and navy alone was 6,000,0001. more than when the present Government were last in office. Tne number of officers had increased of late years out of all proportion with the number of men. For instance, in 1840 there were only 153 admirals, in 1851 there were 235, in 1857 316, and in the present estimates there were 341 ; about an admiral and a half for every ship in commission. Out of the 341 14 were employed in active service, and half of them were employed as port admirals or super intendants of dockyards. The China war could not be any great cause of increased expense, for only a few additional small steamers had been employed. The city of Canton had been taken by one regiment a xl a, few marines ; in fact the French claimed to have had the most important share in it. 'Looking to the resul t wrnteti wbi.v.inea Liao f molls ; there must be the grossest corruption or mis management somewhere He had received letters from persons in the dockyards, in a position—whose names, of course, he was not at liberty to disclose—to know all about these matters, which showed a disgraceful sys tem of waste and an entire absence of all superintend ence. No less than 7,000,0001. had been voted for stores and dockyard wages since the termination of the French war, and not a single ship had been destroyed in that period by an enemy. If the present First Lord would look well into this particular matter he would render most essential service to the public. He was bound, in justice to the late First Lord to say that these estimates were thoroughly intelligible, but he pitied the gallant Secretary for War who had to deal with the army estimates, for a greater mass of coeieeloe he had never seen. Sir C. WOOD thanked the hon. gentleman for the compliment—though he could not take to himself the oredit for the undoubtedly clear and intelligible shape in which the estimates had been laid on the table. He quite approved the course which the Government pro posed to take with regard to the estimates. Of course it was quite impossible that the right hon gentleman opposite could have had time to make himself acquainted with all the details of the estimates or even to form an opinion on his own responsibility of what they ought to be. The estimates for the year ought certainly to be brought forward on the fall and clear responsibility of the Government, and under the circumstances they had done quite right in proposing only a vote on account at the, present moment. For the estimate', as they at present stood, he held himself responsible, and when the estimates for the whole year were brought forward he should be happy to give the Government all the as-istance in his power to pass them, always supposing that they were such as the knowledge which he had acquired told him were necessary for the public service. He hoped, however, that they would be E b gih r r: o 6eAs u ctoat d g toeo ar h us t. t abhi rtteja f vtars a teeAr r o iLdt hyteaehataoe number ilt,hTruoei acquiescence said s ar asnel earliest possible period after y the can e t mn h owe a fat madet a n ne e dh heard tu a oos d yeas,,n ‘ngv ohm ri: couldnhwt had always been willingly granted on occasions when the country demanded a similar increase. (Hear, hear.) At this moment our force at sea was unworthy of our pre ' tensions to be the first maritime Power in Europe. Without doubt our docks and harbours presented an imposing array, and we had stages with gunboats jost ling each other, a magnificent fleet, comprising sailing and screw ships of unrivalled strength, capabilities, and speed ; yet we had been lately unable to furnish trans ports for a few thousand troops without having recourse to the merchant navy. It was only last year that he had recommended as indispensable the maintenance at sea of not less than 12 sail of the line, fully manned and offi cered, in the highest state of efficiency and preparation, because it would afford the immediate means on the most sudden emergency of supplying twice that number of ships for the service of the country, independently of frigates and smaller vessels. At a period when scieece was making fresh advances, hitherto unexampled, and other maritime Powers were strengthening their navies in proportion, no caution could be too great in a timely consideration of the construction of our ships before they were commenced. The position—one of the highest importance and responsibility—of the Surveyor of the Navy, demanding as it did the display of great ability, and a judicious expenditure of the public money, re quired that it should be accompanied by a seat at the Board of Admiralty, by which opportunity and authority would be afforded him to represent his opinions with freedom and cogency. The navy, from its peculiar cha racter, required a far-seeing policy and a generous system of rewards. They should encourage those officers who exhibited z 3al in acquiring the knowledge of their profes sion and in the discharge of its arduous duties, and merit should constitute the only claim to promotion. To insure fidelity in the seamen they must show a scrupul ous adherence to every promise and discrimination with liberality in reward. Economy and retrenchment must be employed in careful forethought before incurring ex pense, and only as they were compatible with the integ rity of the national defences. The navy of England could never be reduced with impunity. Neither gunnery nor navigation was the acquirement of a few months, and the landsman was only by long experience ripened into the practical seaman. If the fleet were undermanned there would be risk, and if there were ignorance of their profession on the part of the officers there might be a sad reverse. Here he might remind the committee that in order to fit out the Baltic fleet they had to strip the Coastguard service of men, and when they bad turned the landsmen into good tailors they turned them adrift on the Harde at Portsmouth, Plymouth, and Chatham, to carry their energy, their zeal, and their .vigour, it might be, into the service of any other nation which would find them employment. We wanted, not ships, but the living hearts of oak—the gallant tars, to quicken the mighty mass ; hut poor Jack was disregarded when he was not wanted, and he was di-couraged when they should have hidden him hearty welcome in the name of England. (llelr, hear.) Ile warned them to be wise in time, an I to show a more generous consideration, a wiser policy, and a more far-seeing system as regarded the u n id avy isy . reqiiired imperatively one reform ; an ob l e h e e t b o r f_ g ,a g .n i e d bo t ig h nto e u F ra ir b s i t e Lord of the Admiralty's atteu t,cn while he pressed it. He alluded to the dishearten- Int.; iulpressinn prevalent in the navy that no officer uu looped by iefie c ta e i o n r a unablereasonableamb it ambition—the o t m ohpe a e n r d oaf tokffi attaining o c f i al admiral favour o th u e r c ov:llatc:l4%Zotulma:adApitspcarepsteahint duringit wa s confined fuur yea years in those war ime, five at a time of way and peace, or six while there was peace. He was at a loss to reconcile the restriction with the dictates of wisdom or justice, small as the residue of the required time might be, whatever the amount of his energy or oapacity, his courage or zeal, he had neither appeal nor redress. The reserved list was his destine tion, and that of two many instances of a similar exclu sion which excited universal regret, and enlisted the widest public sympathy. The hardship was increased by the frequent reappointment of the same officer to commands. By their death the country was debarred the advantages it expected from their experience, while it was deprived of the services of their survivors, who had been an d capriciously d en i e d th e o pp or t un ity of that employment unduly for which they had in vain reiterated the most earnest desire. The easy and obvious redress, if the present system continued in force, was to allow the time spent by a commander in actual service to qualify for the flag on the active list. (Hear.) The Navy List was surcharged with the names of men who despaired of promotion. In the Royal Artillery, Engineers, Marines, as well as regiments of the Cavalry and the line, the officers destitute of patronage and means of purchase, by perseverance in the service, could attain the highest rank, while the gray-headed lieutenant of the navy was a proverb of neglect and hopelessness, and a standing reproach to the a dministration of our national profession. (Hear.) He assured the committee that in offering these observations ha was actuated by no personal motive, but se long as he had a seat in that house, on whatever side be sat—and be had had a very comfortable seat on the Opposition side for about five and a half years—(a laugh) —he should do his utmost to maintain the welfare of the naval profession, because he believed that the prosperity of the country was inseparably bound up with it. The , hon. member fer Lambeth had as usual remarked upon the number of admirals on the list ; but those gallant men had deserved well of their country—they had fought her battles in time of war, and surely no generous mind would grudge them that which they had so well earned. If it would be any satisfaction, however, to the hon. member for Lambeth, he could tell him that those brave men were being fast removed from among us, and that not many of them would much longer enjoy the pittance which they had so nobly won. (Hear, hear.) Mr. TOWNSEND, who had given notice of his intention to urge upon the Government the propriety of increasing the wages of the dockyard labourers from 13s. to 16s. per week, said that his notice applied more particularly to vote No. • but as he understood that there might be a long de lay before that vote would come on, he trusted that he might be allowed to bring before the committee the claims of the dockyard labourers upon the present occasion. The CHAIRMAN said that it would be quite irregular to discuss an item in vote No. 8 in the present stage of the estimates, and the hon. gentleman was therefore out of order. The vote was then agreed to. On the vote of 1 ,000,000/. on account of the wages of sea men and marines, sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that as the committee had come to an agreement to waive all discussion upon the present occasion, it was not his intention to raise one • but h e gave notice that on a future oc cas i o n he should call at tention to a mode of preceding by which, as it appeared to him, the estimates were rendered of no avail whatever. In the years 1e56-1857 the grant, including the supple mentary estimates for No. 10, naval stores, for the building of ships, &c., had been exceeded by M 6,4521. without any authority from Parliament. That was a subject to which on a future occasion he should call attention ; but in the meantime he wanted en assurance from his hon. friend at the head of the Admiralty that all moneys voted for a special service should be applied to that service and to that r(Hear, hear.) Siry e C. alone. WOOD said that that the circumstance to which the s h i e e n. b:ronet referred had occurred when he (Sir. C. Wood was at the Admiralty, and it would be his duty therefore to explain it when the hon, baronet should direct attention to it more in detail. He would only now observe that the course which was then taken was under the pro visions of an Act of Parliament, and he had no doubt that ho should be able to satisfy the house that there had been no irregularity in the preceoding. Sir J. PAKINGTON said that the particular subject to which his hon. friend referred was one entirely between his hon. friend and the right hon. gentleman opposite. In answer to the appeal of his right hon. friend he had no hesitation that m in o s n a e y y saying that be entirely concurred in the prin ciple ought to be strictly applied to the pur poses for which it was voted. Under the terms of the Ap propriation Act considerable latitude was allowed with respect to the appro?riation of grants ; but how far it; might be desirable toamend the terms of that Act ho was not prepared to say. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that a clause had been introduced into the Appropriation Act,—clause 26,—by whose authority he knew not, which entirely upset the whole system of appropriation. Mr. J. WILSON said the hon. baronet was entirely mistaken about the clause to which he referred, and which was numbered 27 and not 26, in the Appropriation Act. That clause was originally inserted in the Act long before either the hon. baronet or himself had a seat in Parliament. The Act was discussed clause by clause, and the clause alluded to was unanimously adopted. It would ba in the recollectiin of the committee that last year's estimates were taken in two separate sessions, part before and part after the dissolution. The same thing occurred in 1841, and as it was doubted whether the estimates granted pre viously to the dissolution could be applied to the service of that year, a short Act was passed in the Christmas session, declaring that the votes of the two sessions should be treated as applicable to the service of the entire year. The clause to which the hon. baronet referred was inserted in the Appropriation Act of last session. Mr. W. WILLIANIS believed that the clause was a very mischievous one. lie opposed it last session, and would have indated on a division if he had had any hope of "Vcr tTh p-x-o-irts impression being male on the public mind by this discussion. In old times the whole of the naval vote was considered by the Government of the day to be appli cable to any purpose. When Sir J. Graham was First Lord of the Admiralty, in 183 J, he brought the subject be fo re the house and induced them to effect a change. Hon. gentlemen must kaow perfectly well that it was altogether impossible to estimate accurately the expenditure under each head. If tho house desired to prevent any surplus being applied to any purpose but that for which it was voted, it would be necessary for them to vote much larger sums under each head than the Government thought re quisite at the time of proposing the estimates. That would be a very inconvenient course ; moreover ' it was ren fersid unnecessary by the change effected by Sir J. Graham, which secured to the country a detailed expenditure of the sums that might be voted in excess. After a few words from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY, condem natory of the 26th clause of the Appropriation Act, under which any vote of last year might be applied to such pur poses as the Government might direct, Mr. BENTINCK expressed his concurrence in the ob servations of the hon. and gallant member for Christchurch as to the false economy pursued by this country for some years past, by which millions of money had been wasted. He contended that the naval department could never be efficiently conducted until the system of placing civilians in positions with which they could not possibly be conver sant was done away with —until the navy was, like the army, administered by men of competent professional knowledge. He also c Attended that the principle of re sponsibility was not enforced again s t th e B oar d o f Admi ralty. There was a total want of system in the depart ment, and the responsibility was so divided that it was merely nominal. Another objection to the present system was the constant changing of the Lords of the Admiralty, occasioned by a change of Ministry. He hoped the time would soon arrive when all these absurdities of the system would be abolished. Mr. LINDSAY was of opinion that the important position of First L ord of th e Admiralty was better filled by aciva w ian o t d hlanitwould be by a nava l man, b ecause th e former probably be able, as having no professional predilections, to teke larger views than the latter. He by cmiralty no means wished to decr y professional experience, but the present was assisted by naval tFhiers management l o o r r d d sof the of A late Admiralty Boards at of the Admiralty whichof great experience. Th ere was one thing in had frequently astonished him, and that was the non-em ployment of the magnificent screw ships which formed part of the naval force of the country as guardsbips, instead of the inferior class of shi p s a t present so employed. Every practical man was aware that a ship deteriorated more when laid up in ordinary than when employed on active service, and indepen dentl y even of that consideration ho believed that the finest ships i n th e service ought to be em ployedany u as silagsships at the various p or t s, to b e prepare d i n case ofden emergency either for defensive opera tions or to go to sea. He hoped that the right hon. gentle man the First Lor d of t he Admiralty would take into consideration the sugg estio n which he had thrown out. houseal S l e i r n jf in r.o r m reference quite agreed with w h a t had tehenhc°eDi gentleman who had last a dd resse d th e o employing a better class of ships as ' guardehips ; but he could not help saying that in his opinion that branch of the naval administration of the country which related to the construction of ships was in a most anomalous condition. (Hear.) Ships for the Royal navy wer e constructed with ou t any reference to t h ose sperrinilles of shipbuilding which o bt a i ne d i n t h e merc h an t v , and which were proved to be the sound principles for obtaining speed combined with safety. A class of frigates had only lately been constructed of which he would t a ke the Diadem as a n examp l e ; that sh i p ha d cos t an enor mous sum of money in th e en d eavours t o f orce h er through the water, a thing whi c h , from the appearance of her, it ap peared almost imp oss ib le to effect ; but at last, at an enor mous expense, sh e was forced th r ough the water at the rate of 12 knots an hour. He considered that the plans of ships to be built ought to be submitted to a committee of prac tical men, and, e ven i f they wore l a id b e fore that house, there was eno ug h practical experience in that hou s e to prevent such bl un d ers recurring as ha d a l rea dy been com mitted. He u n d erstood that a new f r i ga t e , the Orlando, was expected to prove much superior to her predec3ssors, but the experiment which had been required to arrive at her model, lengtlaenin ships 4or 5 feet at a time instead of 50 feet, had been most costly. For his own part he did not think that the Board of Admiralty would ever be pro perly managed by a civilian, for no civilian could be ex pected to know anything about the matter —(a laugh)—and under the guidance of civilians a sum of money had been wasted which would have sufficed to construct two navies. (Hear, hear.) The vote was then agreed to, as were the following votes on account :- 450,000/. towards defraying the expenses of the victual ling department. 70,000/. for the salaries of officers and the contingent expenses of the Admiralty-office. 6',0001. t owards defraying the expenses of the coast guard and naval coast volunteers. 30,0001. for the salaries of officers connected with the scientific department of the navy. 70,000/. for the salaries of officers and the contingent expenses of her Majesty's naval establishment at home. abroad. 10,000/. f or th e expenses of the nava l es t a blishments On the vote of 450,000/. on account for the wages of artificers employed i u th e d oc kyard, Sir F. SMITH urged upon the right hon. gen tleman at the head of the Admiralty the propriety of g ivin g to the artificers employ e d hi g h er wages , as it was impossible to secure the servi ces o f t h e mos t e fficient men without giving them au ade qua t e remunera ti on . Admiral WALCOTT d es ired to impress the same vi e w upon the ri g ht h on. gent l eman . attention of Mr. TOWNSEN D w i s h e d to press upon the the Government and of the commi ttee the propriety of raising the pay of the labourers in our dockyards from was not loss than red how liberal ISs. per week; and w hen they rernembe I.ls. to 15s. per w ee k . The wages allowed t o the same class of men in p r i va t e es tablishments that the country personages, it could not surely be said whose poor men li could not afford to give to a body of t . nel honour, they were in voting pensions and allowances to illustrious vices were so essential in maintaining the national romou "a fair day's wage for a fair day's work," lie lied to believe that had there lately been no change of Govern ment an additional 3s. per week would have been granted to these hard-working operatives ; and he therefore ap pealed to the present Ministry whether they would not fitly inaugurate their advent to power by doing a n ac t o f justice to an humble but deserving class? The men com plained that they had been deprived of a superannuation pension of 151. per annum which they formerly enjoyed ; and they asked why it was that they were the only class of Government employes to whom this advantage was denied?? At present one or two Lords of the Admiralty walked round Woolwich Dockyard periodically, and picked out annually five or six, or at the most seven poor labour ers broken down with age and infirmities, and recommended thorn for a pension of 12/. a-year. But this was an entirely voluntary and spontaneous act, there being no regular sys tem of superannuation on which the men could depend. It might be said that the measure he recommended would cost the nation 20,0001. per annum ; but he confidently believed that the public would not grudge such a sum to maintain these poor men and their families in comparative decency and comfort. He regretted that it was not com petent for him to divide the house on this subject ; but he trusted that the appeal which ho now made would be gene rously responded to. Sir J. PAKINGTON could give no distinct pledge, but ho would take the whole subject into consideration, and should be ready to do anything for these men which could bo done consistently with `:lie interests of the pubiic ser vice. He reminded hon. members that all these discus sions might be renewed on a subsequent occasion, and sug gested that no further questions should be raised, but that the house should be allowed to proceed as early as possible to the consideration of the Indian Loan Bill. (Hear.) Mr. B. OSBORNE said that this was merely a question of demand and supply, and it ought not to be settled either at the Admiralty or anywhere else on any other principles than those of sound political economy. The late Board had no intention even of considering the subject, and he hoped that a similar course would be followed by the pre sent one. If the right hon. baronet held out any hopes of an increase of wages he would be overwhelmed with petitions from all the dockyards. Sir J. PAKINGTON could assure the hon. member for Dover that he had not intended to hold out any hopes. His promise of consideration referred rather to the question of superannuation than to that of wages, and he had care fully guarded himself by intimating that in whatever h e did he must have regard to the interests of the public service. Now, ho was afraid that if men could be obtained for 135., it would be rather hard to prove that it was for the interest of the publics service to pay them 16s. Mr. WHITE was quite ready to accept the inexorable rules of political economy, if they were applied itt all cases; but, without disparaging the labours of the late Secretary of the Admiralty, he had no doubt that a person could have been found who would discharge the duties of that office, he would not say as well as they were discharged by the hon. member for Dover, but certainly for much lower wages. (A laugh.) If the strict rules of political economy were not applied in the higher branches of her Majesty's service, he did not sea why they should be so rigidly enforced in the lower ones. Mr. ALCOCK had spoken to three or four gentlemen who were acquainted with Indian affairs, and among ()ther e to the Chairman of the East India Company (Hr. Man' tee) but he could not obtain fro m th em t h e s li ghtest ;Info'roars. tion on this subject. (Laughter.) Ho hoped + 'ee Minister for War would institute some inquiry as to European troops in India. 'the clothing of Mr. MANGLES had told the in,. gentleman that the expenses of her Majesty's forces ' in India. were defrayed by the East India Company, b" s he could not inf o rm his hon. friend what amount wags deducted from the pay of the men for any portion . of ' their dress. Those details were not within his e ?g r :szance, but he supposed the system adopted in this c° l 7.cry was also in force in India. Geu P :eal PEEL said the extra clothing suitable to the °lir:Late of India was supplied to the troops by the East India Company, but he would cause inquiry to be made on the subject to which the hon. member for East Surrey (Hr. Alcock) had called attention. Col. SYKES observed that the native soldiers in the East India Company's service had not only to pay for their kits, but for every ornament of their dress, out of 14s. a month, while from such charges the European soldiers were altogether exempt. Mr. BAG WELL had found that applications were made to young men who were studying for the military profes sion by parties who stated that they were authorised to give them commission, provided they raised a certain num ber of men. Such an application had been made to a re lation of his even, and it struck him as very odd that while the applications of young gentlemen of fortune and station for commissions on condition ofraising men were uniformly refused by the authorities, persons who represented them selves as army agents should say that a certain sum might be lodged in a bank, which should not be withdrawn until a commission was granted. It would seem, certainly, from this circumstance that there was no attempt at fraud, but it was stated that if some 50 men were raised a commission might be obtained without purchase. He thought such a proceeding was very strange and irregular, and he wished to know whether the Secretary for War could give any explanation on this subject. General PEEL could give no explanation, and could not understand how such an oeourrenee could have taken place. The hon. gentleman had made the statement from his own personal knowledge, and he (General Peel) would have the matter inquired into. The vote was then agreed to. On the vote of 1,227,0001. on account of pay and allow ances to her Majesty's land forces. Mr. W. WILLIAMS asked what bad been the result of the important change which had taken place respecting the army clothing, which was now supplied by the Go vernment, instead of by the colonels of regiments. The estimates were so confused that he found it impossible to ascertain the comparative cost generally ; but he found that the cost of the Guards' clothing was now 40 per cent. more than it was in the time of the Duke of We! lington. He thought this most extraordinary and most unwarrantable extravagance. The present Government could not make themselves more popu lar than by effecting retrenchments, especially in matters of this kind, and this was a subject to which he trusted the right hon. and gallant General would turn his attention. From what had transpired before the Committee on Contracts there seemed to be an immense amount of unfair dealing in connection with these, and unless the system was amended, and the receipt of perquisites put a stop to, especially in army contracts, no respectable man would offer to supply them. Mr. P. O'BRIEN asked whether the present Govern ment intended to adhere to the principle of competitive examivatioa in reference to the engineers and artillery. Some change appeared to be in contemplation, for it seemed that only on two more occasions was this principle to be recognised at Woolwich. General PEEL was much obliged to the hon. gentleman for giving him this opportunity of stating what, so far as he was concerned, had taken place on this subject. It had been recommended by the Council of Education that all candidates for the military service should pass through the college at Sandhurst. Not only would they as heretofore be subjected to competitive examination, but as far as the en gineers and artill er y were concerne d the candidates for these services would in future have to undergo a double competitive examination. It was, however, pointed out to him that under the new arrangement great hardship would be inflicted on several gentlemen who had been preparing themselves for examination at Wool wich, because they would be past the age at which they would be admitted to Sandhurst. This was also represented to the Commander-in-Chief, and the result was that two more competitive examinations were directed to take place at Woolwich in order to allow those gentlemen to undergo examination there who would have boon too old for Sandhurst. The principle of competitive examination, he repeated, was not at all given vp ; hut, nu the contrary, so fax. es the engineers and artillery were con cerned, they would be subjected to two examinations, one on entering the college; and candidates would have no more difficulty in entering Sandhurst than in presenting themselves at Woolwich. (Hear, hear.) Mr. I'. O'BRIEN asserted his right as the representative of a popular constituency—as one of the people and no aristocrat—to know the reason why a change had taken place after the success which had attended the new system. The house and the country had a right to be told this, and to know why an admission to Sandhurst was to be made necessary. Mr, GLADSTONE said it was refreshing to hear an hon. gentleman assert the right of the house to institute in quiries, and as a member of the house he begged to thank the hon. gentleman for his care of its privileges. (Laughter.) The question which the hon. member had raised was one of great importance, but he did not seem to have caught ac curately what had fallen from the right hon. and gallant General the Secretary for War in reference to the subject. If he (Mr. Gladstone) understood his right hon. andgallant friend correctly, he had stated that the interposition of the preliminary course at Sandhurst had been recommended merely as a measure of practical utility by the Council of Education, and was not intended in any way to bear upon or to restrict the principle of competition, upon which, if it had any influence at all, its effect would be to substitute a double for a single competition. If that were so then the statement of the gallant general could, he thought, be unsatisfactory neither to the hon. gentleman opposite nor +o the committee. There was also another statement made by his gallant friend which he heard with much plea sum e—namoly, that the competitive entrance to. Sandhurst under the new system would be practically free for all her Majesty's subiects as the public competition at Woolwich. General .PEEL said that any person seeking to be placed on their list of candidates for admission to Sandhurst had merely to apply to his guardian or seine other person who could bear testimony to his respectability, and he thought it was desirable that some such reference should be re quired, but beyond that there would be no limitation whatsoever. (Hear, hear.) The vote was then agreed to, as were also the following votes :- 206,0001. to defray the expenses connected with the pay and allowances of our land forces at home and abroad. 100,0001. for the embodied militia. 30,000'. for the volunteer force. 60,0001. for the departments of Secresary of State for War and General Commanding-in-Chief. 116,000/. for manufacturing establishments, military storekeepers, Etc. 180,000 e. for wages of artificers and labourers. 229,0001. for clothing anti necessaries. 361,0001. for provisions, forage, Etc. 214,000/. for warlike storm. 93,0001. for fortifications. 50,000 foi civil buildings. 222,0001. for barracks. 55.0001. for the educational and scientific branches. 9,000/. for rewards for military service. 20,000/. for the pay of general officers. 138,000/. for the pay of reduced and retired officers. • 69,000/. for pensions to the widows of officers. 17, 00/. for pensions to wounded officers. 10,0001. for Chelsea and Kilinainham hospitals. 4,000/. for of at Chelsea. 44,00 e/. for eueerannuetion and retiring allowances. The CHAIRMA:4 then reported progress, and the SPEAKER having resumed the chair, the resolutions passed in com mittee of supply were reported to the house. EAST INDIAN LOAN BILL. On the order of the day for the farther consideration of this bill as amended, The C AANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that houseno bill coal I be of g reater importance, and he hoped of the the East would pass it with unanimity. Th India Company 'were urgent, and ho wants trusted the house would consider the measure irrespectively ec o ti o v v e e l r y n o m f e t n h t e fo q r st l e n st d i i o a. n of what might be the future form The urgency was not a question of days but of hours, and he did not think that the sum asked for in the previous bill 8,0e0,00e/.—was too large. A question existed as to the 11th clause—(hear, hear)—which it was proposed to expunge—(hear, hear) --but he hoped the bill would pass without opposition. Mr. CARD WELL expressed his approval of the rejec tion of the 11th clause. Sir E. PERRY had no objection to adopt the most effectual means for supplying the East India Company with funds, but could not give his assent to the bill or to the proposition on which was founded. Mr. BAILLIE hoped there would be no opposition to the bill. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY hoped there would be no ob jection to a clause of which he had given notice, viz., that on or before the Ist day of February ;n eaclh year the court of directors of the East India Company, under such direction and control as aforesaid, shall prepare, or cause to be prepared, a return of all loonies raised on loan under the provisions of this act, and of the expenditure thereof; also, a return of all stocks, loans, debts, and liabilities then chargeable on the East Indian revenues, at home and abroad, up to the latest patio 1 , of time to which such returns shall be made out. That all such returns shall be presented to be- h houses of Parliament on or before the let clay in February of each year, if Parliament is then sitting, and if Parlionient is not sitting, then such returns shall be presented within ten clays of the first meeting of Parlia ment after the Ist day of February in each year. Mr. MANGLES said that the lion. and learned member for Devonport proposed that this country should guarantee the loan, obtaining its remedy from the revenues of India; hut if those revenues were fluctuating and insufficient to meet the claim, he could not see, according to the view of the hen, and learned member, how this country could get its ultimate remedy. (Hear, and a laugh.) Mr. CRAWFORD reminded the house that the Indian railways were already paying a larger dividend than would cover the guarantee of this loan. Sir G. LWIS said that if ho was not mistaken, the operation to which the honourable gentleman alluded con sisted in the conversion of a 5 per cent. stock into a 4 per cent, stock, which was done with the perfect assent of the bondholders. That, therefore, was not an act which could with any justice be designated as an act of spoliation. Whoteer it was financially a successful operation was another quotion, lip mint at the same tittle he permitted Sir E. PERRY said that the hon. member for Dover had in his remarks done great injustice to his late chief, because during the last year the wages of the labourers were increased is. a week. When these wages were origi rally fixed they were rather above those of agricultural labourers. Since then there had been a general increase in the rate of wages, and they were now below the rate paid to the same class of workmen. Mr. W. S. LINDSAY agreed with the hon. member for Dover that this was a mere question of demand and supply, and ought not to be considered upon any other prin ciples. General CODRINGTON thought the question was whe ther the wages were high enough to induce the best class of labourers to do tho work of the Government. He doubted whether that question could ba answered in the affirmative. Sir J. ELPHINSTONE admitted that the Government could get plenty of men to enter their service for 13s. a week:but they would not obtain the best labour for that money. In addition to their low rate of wages it should be recollected that the families of the dockyard labourers were tied to certain spots where the local burdens, in con sequence of the Government not contributing to the sup port of the poor, were excessively high. Ho would take another opportunity of referring to the subject. Mr. STUART supported the vote. The rate of wages had fallen considerably during the last few months, and if 13s. a-week was deemed sufficient a year ago there was no reason for increasing it now. Mr. GLADSTONE hoped the Committee would look with jealousy upon applications from the representatives of particular towns for an increase of wages among their constituents. It had been said that the Government paid 13s. a-week and did not get good work for it. Were they quite sure that they could improve the quality of the work merely by raising the rate of wages ? It seemed to him that the difficulty lay deep in the nature of Government establishments. A labourer was apt to go into one of those establishments with very different sentiments and feelings from those with which he entered into the service of ti private owner. When ho went to serve a private indivi dual he knew that he must stand upon his own merits, and that his work would fetch its real value but no more. On the other hand, he obtained a lmission to a Government establishment generally by solicitation ; the whole course of his ideas was dislocated, so to speak, by the manner in which he got there, and it was wrong to suppose that by merely raising the rate of wages we could secure a supply of good labour. How that dif ficulty was to be overcome he would not undertake to say ; but he believed the wise and practical conclusion would be to have no Government establishments whatever for menu- factures, except in cases where they were absolutely neces sary. No Government could carry on manufactures except at a great disadvantage, and he trusted, without meaning the slightest reproach to hon. members, whose duty it was to stand up manfully for the interests of their constituents, the House would receive with a jealousy proportioned to their fidelity and zeal the representations which they made in favour of increasing the wages of their local friends. (Hear, hear.) fair V. RA ItTNG was sorry to say that he bad often in curred no small degree of unpopularity by telling his con stituents that the members for dockyard towns did more harm than good by pressing for an increase of wages. He was not surprised that an es-Chancell )r of the Exchequer had met the demand for such an increase by saying " Dis miss all your dockyard labourers, and get the work done by private contract." Such, he was convinced, would be the result if the expense of the dockyards were very con siderably augmented. At the same time the dockyard men did their work fairly and well, and during the late war their zeal and energy were conspicuous. (Hear, hear.) The veto was then agreed to. , A vote of 23,0001., on account, for the wages of artificers, labourers, and others employed in establishments abroa-1, was also agreed to. On the vote of &0,0001. for defraying the expenses of naval stores for the building, repair, and outfit of the fleet, and for the purchase of steam machinery, Sir C. NAPIER said, we were now building the finest fleet in the world, but there was one point to which he wished to direst the attention of the Government. It was a fact—a fact which the present Emperor of the French was one of the first to discover—that an iron-sided ship was far more cap ,ble of resisting shells than a timber one. He believed that a frigate of twenty guns lined with iron four inches thick could in a very short time destroy a three-decker of 100 guns. We had not yet dis covered any means of preventing iron ships from fouling, and he could not help thinking that the Government ought to offer a handsome reward for the accomplishment of that object. The ♦ote was agreed to. A vote of 250,000/. for new works, improvement 7, and repairs was pased without discussion. The following sums was :Also taken on account :- 20,000/. for medicines and medical steal. 30,000/. for miscellaneous services. 300,0001. for half-pay, reserved half-pay, and retirement to officers of the Navy and Royal Marines. 200,0001. for military pensions and allowances. 70,000/. for civil pensions and allowances. 250,000/. for conveyance of troops. 40J,000/. for tho packet service. ARMY EgTII{ATES. General PEEL, who was very indistinctly heard in the reporters' gallery, said that in accordance with the agree ment into which the house had entered he' should merely ask the committee to vote the whole number of men for the army, and a portion of the money upon each of the other votes. The vote for the number of men might per haps require some short explanation. The number he should ask the committee to vote on the present occasion, exclusive of the Indian establishment, was 130,135, as against 126,796 voted last year, showing an increame of 3,339 men. But this by no means showed the true state of the army. The total strength of Her Majesty's forces, in cluding the troops in India, had increased from 156,993 men in last year to 222,874 required for the present year ; the increase being 65e-431. This arose from the numeer of troops cent from this country to India. The force charge able to the East India Company, including the depots at home, would be for this year 92,739 as against 30,197 last year, showing an increase on the East India Company's establishment of no less than 62,542 men. There had been cent to India last year, when the India establishment was voted, four regiments of cavalry and 24 regiments of infantry, and there were now there 11 regiments of cavalry and 60 regiments of infantry. There had been sent out seven additional regiments of cavalry and 36 additional battalions of infantry, thus re ducing the force of the home establishment by that num ber. It was intended to meet the withdrawal of that force by raising 2G new battalions of infantry, and two additional regiments of cavalry, and this accounted for the increase in the present year of 3,330 men over the number voted in the last year, for though there was a reduced number of regiments the strength of each had been in creased. but did not know what tho increase was in the cs.valiY, but in the infantry it was from 840 to t5O. It was, however, an extraordinary fact that though the number of men was increased the payment was absolutely lees than in last year. This arose from the number of regiments sent to India, for the pay of the colonels then became chargable to the East India Company, and the new battalions had no colonels, while the number of the non commissioned officers was not increased but diminished. Therefore there was a decrease this year in tho whole sum to bo voted for pay and allowances of 706,990/. He was happy to Fay that the recruiting was going on atithe present time in a more favourable manner than he could by possi bility have anticipated. (Hear, hear.) During the time of the Crimean war he believed that the greatest number of enlistments in any one month was about 6,000, but in the last month the enlistments had amounted to 7,500. (Hoar.) There Lad been enlisted, including recruits for the East India Company, at the rate of 6,000 men a month, making 36,000 enlistments during the last six months. (Rear.) The gallant general concluded by moving the vo te for the number of men. Mr. W. WILLIAMS expressed his surprise that after the enormous sums of money voted for barracks the accom modation in them should be exceedingly defective. If the money had been expended honestly all the barrtcks which war t were ro.u i Ag • e h eL t n e i no r o e cw d Kt t o o s ab a ie c d c i o int m aw m na o es a he t ei e eb t n l et i l e isetv a a ert d, g e d n u e r r i a n l g l y. the un d l e a r s stood that the East India Company supplied bedding and clothing gratuitously to the Queen's troops employed in India, but he had been informed by a relative that in some cases the only clothing supplied consisted of two linen caps, while the soldiers were required to pay half thecost of their bedding. Sir J. TRELAWNY complained that the brigade of Guards, which was a very strong force, was entirely exempted from colonial duty. It was suspected that the reason of this exemption was that the officers of the Guards were more or less connected with the aristocracy, and were appointed by the colonels of the regi men t s o f Guards, and not upon the responsibility of the W ar De partment. He thought it desirable that battalions of the Guards should be sent to Madras, Calcutta, and Bombay , as the young officers of the brigade would th en h ave an opportunity of. seeing something of the world, and of acqua i n ting themselves with their professional duties. He thought, also, that such a change would be ben e ficial to the health of the men, for he believed that from lon g rcsi (Waco in London they contracted bad habits, w hi c h might ~.............• -- • _ . in some measure account f or th e ill h ea lth that was attri- i to enter his protest against giving the imperial guarantee buted to the state of th e barracks, H e saw no reason why , for loans for Indian or colonial keeping, unless in cases of the aristocratic officers o f th e G uar d s , b ra ve and intelli- absolute necessity. (Hear, hear.) It was quite absurd to gent as they undoubtedly were, should be placed in a po- say there was any real necessity in the present instance. sition which gave them more rapid promotion than could Indian Bonds were at that moment at a premium of 25e. be attained by persons of a lower grade in society. A cap- or 305., and therefore it was apparent the East India Com tain intheiGua,rds at once became a lieutena.ut•colonel, and parry could borrow moaey on easier terms than most of he (Sir J. Trelawny) was informed that the:pay and allow- the conti nental countries of Europe. once of au officer of the r an k amoun t e d t o near ly 1)001. After a few words from Colonel SYKES and Mr. a-year. Independently of the advantages in respect so pay, CAMPBELL, the officers of the Guards obtained rapid promotion ; and The bill as amended was then agreed to. during the war in the Crimea many of the higher military THE INDIA. BILL. appointments were held by Guardsmen. He hoped the Upon the order of the day for the second reading of this gallant-general at the head of the War Department would bill, brin the appointment of officers of the Guards under his Lord PALMERSTON said—l pre sume , sir, the own authority, and would not countenance a system which Government have a bill of their own to introduce was prejudicial to the interests of the service. on this subject. lam willing, therefore, to stone General CODRING TON thought it was most desirable this bill until the house shall 'Bee what the Govern to was to retain in London such a corps s e he Guards hi h ment intends to propose. I viould, therefore, put this eall suited to the performance of military duties in bill down for an early day afte't Easter, by which time we the metropolis. He knew that, in several cases, officers of may expect the measure of the Government will be ma ' regiments of the line had been very glad to withdraw their turgid. I will, thereforP„ propose Thursday, the 22d. of men from the temptations by which they were beset in At rill for the second reading of the bill. Lon osdt on, an which rend er ed th e ma i n t enance o f di sc i p li ne The motion hp:ving been agreed to, the order was die. m difficu d lt. General PEEL sa id th a t th e c l othing of her Majesty's charged.TUP.l , KE ROADS IN SCOTLAND. troops in India was supp li ed b y the East Indian Govern- Leave 'w a s given to Lord ELCHO to introduce a bill to 1 Inept, and was not under the control of the War Depart- aboljss4 tolls and statute labour in Scotland. meat. CASHEL ELECTION. Sir F. BARING moved that the petition of John Joseph Scully, presented to this house on the 18th day of August last complaining that general and extensive bribery pre veiled at the last elec ion for the borough of Cashel, to gether with the recognisances entered into in respect of the same petition, and the report of the examiners of recog nisances in respect of that recognisance, be referred to the general committee of elections. Colonel FRENCH objected to such a proceeding. Sir J. D. FITZGERALD contended that the petition could not proceed, as the parties had not had proper notices and they could not now be given. Mr. WALPOLE suggested that the matter should here ferred to the committee, to inquire into and report on the circumstances under which the matter had lapsed, that the house might be placed in possession of the actual facts. The motion was amended accordingly and agreed to. AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS. Leave was given to Mr. CAIRD to bring in a bill to pro vide for the collection of agricultural statistics. The bill was then read a first time, and the house ad journed it ten minutes to one. SPORTING lATELLIGENCE. DONCASTER SPRING MEETING.—FEIDAY. Stewards—The Right Hon. Lard Londesborough and George Payne, Esq. Judge and Clerk of the Course, Mr. R. Johnson. Starter, Mr. Birley. The Trial Stakes of 5 soya each, with 30 added, for 3-yr olds and upwards. Certain winners extra. T.Y.C. 9 subs. gr. S. Wllliams'e Costrel, by The Cossack, 3 yrs, 6st 710 ................................................... (Bray) 1 Mr. T. Parr's Odd Trick, 4 yrs, gat (inc. 71b extra) (Fl tame) 2 Mr. E. R. Clark's Lady of Taarworth, 3 yrs, 6.t 71b (car. Est Blb)._ -‘4 (French) a _ . Betting—Even on Costret-5 to 4 agPt Odd Trick. Won by four lengths; the Lady of Taruworth wag beaten cff. After the race 100 to 7 was taken about Costrel for the Northamptonshire Stakes, and 20 to 1 was offered agst Odd Trick. The Chesterfield Plate (handicap) of 100 soya. Winners extra. One mile. Mr. Millard's Glautias, by Pyrrhus the First, 5 yrs, 5,t 6lb (car. sst 81b) (French) 1 Mr. T. Taylor's colt by Stultz—Gentle Kitty, 4 yrs, 6st 61b (Bu11,ok) 2 Mr. S.xon's Woodmite, 3 yrs, sst lib... (Grimsbaw) 3 Mr. G. Johnson's Church Langton, 4 yrs, Est 61b (Little) 4 The following also ran :--Pontifical, Massacre, Silica, Figuale, and Culcavy. Batting-5 to 1 agst Culcavy, 6to leach eget Gentle Kitty colt, Unurch Langton, and Massacre, 7 to 1 agst Wood mite. Won easily by a length ; a neck between the second and third ; good fourth ; Silica was fifth ; and Culcavy sixth, Within the distance Massacre NI over the mile, and 'brew Pritchard, who was severely shaken. Toe Hopeful Stakes of 5 soya each, with 100 added, for two-yr-olds. Colts, Bst 7lb ; fillies and geldings, 8 t 3lb ; winners this year 51b extra. About four furlongs. 66 , übs. Mr. Jackson's Fusee, Bet 71b Mr. W. S. Cra •ford's filly by T , lddingtoa (Wells) 2 Mr. T. Parr's Stockham, B,t 31b (Flatman) 3 Mr. J. Bate,'s R tspbrrry, 8-t 31b (Challoner) 4 The following also ran :—Phantasm, Lady Well, Anti dote, The Pirate, Sir Walter Scott, Aneurin, Black Eagle, Daniel, Macbeth, colt by Sir Hercules, Paul Jones, Little Emma, The King of Sardinia, and Pp-diction. Betting-4 to 1 agst Aneurin, sto 1 agst Stockham, 10 to 1 agst Truth colt, 100 to 8 aget Black Eagle, 100 to 6 agst Paul Jones and Teddington filly, 20 to 1 each •- agst Pirate, Fusee, and Raspberry. Won by a neck ; half a length between the second alai third ; good fourth ; Sir Walter Scott and Aneurin were _ the next two, pretty well up with the fourth. The Doncaster Spring Handicap of 15 soya, each, 10 ft.,' : and 5 only if declared, &c., with 100 added. Winners • extra. The second to &aye his stake. St. Leger Course. 51 subs., 25 of whom declared. Mr 1 , 1,4,-nctrd'e Wreatier, by Orlando, $ yrs, got 71b (Swift) 1 Mr. Peter's Gammon, 3 yrs, 64 Sib (including 101 b extra (Bray) 2 Mr. J. Thompson's Broadlands, 3 yrs, fist 31b (Bullock) 3 The following also ran :—Gatomener, Underhand, — : Culcavy, Bird-in-the-Hand, Riga, Honeytree, and Silica. Betling--5 to 2 aget Gammon, 9 to 2 agst Wrestler, 6 to 1 agst Broadlands. Won by a neck ; three lengths between the second and third ; bad fourth. HORSES STRUCK OUT OF THEIR ENGAGE MENTS. On the sth inst., St. Giles out of all his engagements. O❑ the 11th inst., at 0 a.m., Tom Moody out of all his engagement.. On the 9th inst., Mr. Harrison's Ben Lomond out of the Warwick Steeple Chase. O❑ the 10th inst., Honesty and Mallany out of th• Gullane Steeple Chase. On the 11th inst., all Mr. Golhy's horses out of th• Steeple Cease and Hurdle Race at Warwick, and Cornet out of the Steeple Chase at Beverley. O❑ the 12th inst., Huntington out of Earl Spencer's Plate at Northampton. [AnvEarissurir]. —Da Barry's lievalenta Arabica. Food supersedes the miseries of the materia medics, brings now, life and cheerfulness to the invalid, and renders the proceta of cure both pleasant and certain. FIFTY THOUSAN - D well-known and recorded cases establish this; and the nw Lu ber of witnesses to its effects is daily increasing. Amongst the female sex its salutary effects are as marked as arnoragst males. Miss Elizabeth Jacobs writes, from Nazing Vicarage, near Waltham Cross, Herts :—" I have been suffering, at least, seven years, in the p'ime of life, from indigestion, ner vousness, headaches, inflammation, and gatherings, low spirits, general debility, sleeplessnes , , and delusions ; and, during all that time, I have required, every year, so much medical attendance, that I have been almost mimed by' doctor's bills." She then presents her heartfelt gratitude to Messrs. Du Barry, for the complete cure effected by Da Barry's Food. Mrs. Mary Godsmark, of Hunton, writes— " Your excellent Food has released me from an incredible accumulation of suffering, for which during the last eight years, all kinds of medicines had been tried in vain. My feelings and sufferings, previous to taking your Food, were the following—lndigestion, nervousness, bilious.. ness, affection of the liver and kidneys, costiveness, palpita tiou of the heart, noises in the ear, pains in almost all th • body, low spirits, general debility, loss of memory, wretched._ noes, thoughts of self-destruction." James Porter, Esq., oaf Perth, returns thanks on behalf of a lady, who had been tar 13 years afflicted with indigestion, prostration of strength, be., accompanied by cough, Mr. Thomas Walker, of Kinis road, Chelsea, expresses his " gratitude and pleasure" for the good done by the Food to his wife, who, previous to taking it,. " had been suffering for a long time from dyspepsia, produc- • ing alternately diarrhcea, and the o p pos it e state of the eye.- tem; and although medicine gave tempo ary relief, it prove 4 of no lasting benefit." Mary Gelbert, of Trovagler, near Pet I zance, says :—" Eighteen years' nervous debility, violent pa .1- pitation of the heart, throbbing of the temples, violent pai es in the left side and back, shortness of breath, cough , " 1 " -b -ness of the extremities, cramps, spasms, flatulency, retchit and such gen•ral weakness, that, I was constantly fea - rful of falling, when on my legs ; all these symptoms far Iva been removed by Du Barry's excellent Food." It is iris) mu sible to make room in a newspaper paragraph for the ve but concurrent language of thankfulness in which the writers describe their escape from their sufferings. It is a prod and.. enviable position for Messrs. Du Barry to feel themselves thus , : acknowledged benefactors of multitudes of their fellow-beings , Supported by testimonials from the following celebrated Pre •- fessors of Chemistry: Dr, A. Ure; Dr, Shorland; Dr, lia.rve: fj Dr. Campbell ; Dr. Gattiker ; Dr. Wurzer ; Dr. Ingram - is ; Lord Stuart de Decies; the Dowager Countess of Castlestuiv rt; Major Gen, Thomas King, and many other respectable per sons, whose health has been restored by it, after all other means of cure had failed, Suitably packed with full instruc tions, In canisters, 11b. 2s. Pd. ; 210. 45. 6d. ; 51b. ifs. ; 121 b. 225, The 121 b canisters aro sent carriage free, et re— ceipt of Post-office order. Barry Du Barry, and C 0,., 77„ Regent-street, London. Important Caution against the fear a fill dangers of spurious imitations.—The Vice-Chancellor 8 . it Page Wood granted an Injunction on the 10th Marc' 1854, against Alfred Hooper Nevin, for imitating " Lbe Barry's Revalenta Arabica Food." BIRTHS. BAILEY —On the 9th inst., at 50,Glocestenterrace, FLY 30 ' park, the wife of Lyttelton H. Bayley, Esq., of a WU* FINCH—On the 11th inst., at Upper Tulsa-hill, Mrs. L Finch, of a daughter. STRADBRO/E—On the 10th inst., the Countess of Stra , l' broke, of a daughter. MARRIAGES. CORBIN - JARMAN—On the 11th inst., at St. Pete es, Edon-square, Captain Corbin of Ramsgate , to SA r ah Ann, eldest daughter of Captain Jarman, also of Ra ens gate. GALE — MASON—On thellth inst., at St. Matthew's, Den mark-hill, Wm. R. Gale,ofJewin-street, to Sarah, the eldest daughter of John Mas on, Esq., of Loughboranglr road, Brixton, and Cripplegate, city. DEAT II M, BROWN—Con the Bth inst., at Cobham, Surrey, Power Brown, Esq., aged 73. GRIGG—On the Bth inst., at Thistle rove, Brompton, fir' Joseph Grigg, for many years a resident in Mayfair, aged CO. LONCLEY—On the 9Lh inst., at Auckland Castle, the II"' Mrs. Loogley, the wife of the Lord Bishop of Durharo* after three days' illness. Merles RAMSDEN—On the 9th inst., at his residence, 40, UPP erl H a rley-street, George Ramsden, aged - - - LONDON Printed and Published by MURDO YOUN ° of No, 112, &rano., Printer, at Du %.lun Office, " 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the ' pi vo y in the conu 4 y, of Dltddlesaa, Saturday, AlAtch 13, 18584 i tell thi lir e til t ...i I' 'oa,,, ~...... %%4, S' from b) ttluko eate l v ois kg* ' 4 41 !fr ee er ad to rrn kin