The Sun. — London, England, 1829-03-14 00:00:00

jest, and would thus place it in a condition to decide to "'hid' of the petitions the greatest weight was due. As a e tizen of Dublin, it was not for him to question the loy ' sky of the Lord Mayor and Corporation of that city, on which his lion. and Learned Friend had enlarged with so • much display. Ever since the time of James I. they had been coraidered a most loyal corporation. lie trusted that they would continue unshaken in their loyalty ; and that their good sense would lead them to acquiesce in whatever • measure,' Parliament should sanction with its deliberate approval. 'When he heard his Hon. and Learned Friend • tell the House that he was presenting a petition from the corporation of Dublin, and that the Lord Mayor of that loyal corporation was not intimidated by the existing state of things in Ireland, he was reminded of another Lord ' 'Mayor, who being out a hunting, and starting a hare, ex • claimed, "I'm not afraid."—(A laugh.)—" What cause, • I would ask," said the Hon. Member, " is there for the Lord Mayor of Dublin to be afraid ? What are we going to de? We are going to place on a satisfactory basis the • Peace of the city of Dublin, and along with the peace of the city of Dublin, the peace of the whole empire." ' •--.(Hear.)—H e had heard much of late of the genera right of the people to petition, but why he hail heard se much of it of late he could scarcely tell, for he bad never heard the right questioned. He had likewise heard much of the respect which ought to be paid to the petitions of individuals. He acquiesced sincerely in that doctrine, but if those who propounded it meant that equal respect was to he attached to all petitions, and that we were not to con sider the different bodies from which they came, he begged to dissent entirely from them. We should not treat peti tions with greater respect than that with which we treat • one another, and it is well known that, though we are all equal in this House, we give to the opinions of the same men different weight upon different subjects. In like man ner, 'whoever wished to give due weight to the petitions of the people, would refer to the means and ability of the rne:Workers to o b ta i n information, and to the honesty an d t hegarity of th e motives by which they were influenced. b W r.c. t . then b ecame of the petitions of the saddlers, and a I . kla Yers, and P l asterers, and barbers, which h i s Hon. nd Learned Friend had brought forward, he would not say with pomp, but with abundance of theatrical dexte rity? What did they prove? They proved the existence of the disordered state of society which the House was so anxiou s to cure —they proved that passion and prejudice abounded amoug those from whom they came—and . sorry was he to say that passion and prejudice abounded on this subject not only in Ireland but also in this country t" a great extent. He guessed that this was the case in England from the number of petitions which had been pre sented against concession, and from the rapidity with which gentlemen declared that these petitions acquired signatures. It was only the other night that an Hon. Mem ber, in presenting a petition from his constituents, had declared that they were so eager to show their aversion to the contemplated measures of Government, that they had aged to it thirty signatures in the course of a minute— tn short, that they had been sailing at the rate of nine knots an hour till till they reached the end of their parchment and petition. Did not that circumstance prove that a great excitement was abroad, and that the more rapidly our measures proceed to allay it, the greater service we shall confer upon the country?—(Hear.)—He imputed no im proper motives to the petitioners : he trusted that in what ! Said he had uttered nothing offensive to their feelings. He had spoken tenderly their motives in calling them eo e l "s• He had no doubt that they were entertained conscientious] ; but be had as little doubt that they were only the echo of feelings existing in that House. He honour e d and respected the manner in which the peti tio ners put f orward their views ; but he could not help ob - serving that h e h ad heard but little of the arguments by which they su pported th em . E ven hi s li on. an d Learned Friend, the member for Dublin, had not favoured him with any ' l ngin th e s h ape of argument. Night after night had his Non, and Learned Friend dinned into his ears the year 1688,-1688 was his everlasting cry. He left the House for a short tim e one evening, and the last words which he heard on the lips of his Hon. and Learned Friend were • " 1688." He came back, expecting to find that at the end of that time his lion. and Learned Friend had got at least a century in advance. But no, he had not stirred from his darling " 1688." It still sounded on his tongue ; for the year 44 1688" formed the beginning, middle, and ter mination of every speech of his lion. and Learned Friend. '(Laughter.) —H e had heard the Hon. Member for Glou tester proceed in a similar strain—he had seen him de scribes petition with a sirit of gravity which circumstances ren dered perfectly ludicrous. " This petition," said the 110 o• Member, " is entitled to peculiar respect—it is not liable to any objection—it has not been signed by any women "wit has not been hawked about from house to house—it • h as not been signed by any youth under sixteen,"—nor, he "ght to have added, by any old woman of 88, for then the Petition would have been quite perfect•—(Laughter.)— . But he would ask, were all youths above 18 years of age qualified to give an opinion upon this irritating, perplex ing> and complicated question ?—(Hear, hear.)—lf the di fficulties of this question were such as had been repre sented growing out of the construction of Acta of Parlia- Ment, did his Hon. and Learned Friend mean to contend that the plasterers, and bricklayers, and barbers of Dublin, or even the Lord Mayor of Dublin himself (cheers and roars of.laughter), were persons properly qualified to un derstand them ?—( Hear, hear.) But his lion. and Learned Friend objected to these measures, because " they were," he said, "an infraction rif the Protestant settlement in Church and State, obtained by the revolution of 1688," and he backed his opinion upon this point with the autho rity, the learned authority, of the Lord Mayor of Dublin. He (Mr. Doherty) told his Hon. and Learned Friend that he had listened with great attention, not only to his argu ment!, on that point, but to those of all the Hon. Members 114 )0 had debated this question. He hail heard many of th em, and such of them as he had not heard he had read with greatcare ; and the calm conclusion at which, after ail his study, he had arrived, was, that the settlement of this question on the terms now proposed, was no infrac tion of th e C onst i tut i on as settled i n h i s Hon. and Learne d vr ieod's favourite year of 1688.—(Hear, hear.) He did not wish to speak harshly of his lion. and learned Friend ; he t, s fel t for him a respect which his Honourable and h—varned Friend well knew was not likely to be diminished t -7 a ny difference of opinion which might exist be- Pee them on this uestion. He really believed that IT" difference arose q from this circuinstance,—that his "°sourable and Learned Friend would never allow his excellent understanding to deliberate on this question.— ' blreftstances had given to his Hon. and Learned Friend's 4 -41 14 a biati which he could not control, and he had no t :!aht that his Hon. and Learned Friend would soon inform to that this was a question on which he had never en 'll4ined any doubt,—on which he had new* felt any diffi csti.itY• It was because lie had never entertained doubt, and ' t Zer felt difficulty, that his Hon. and Learned Friend had en • his station among the friends of exclusion. If he hadh ever entertained doubts, if he had ever felt difficulties, he would have inquired deeply into the subject, and instead Islam back ing himself on points of law by the opinions of er i erst brick! ere and barbers—(Cheers and laugh- Would have ay ' ranked himself with those able, en lightened persons whose petition it would be his duty to Present soon to the House. It appeared from his Hon. and Learned Friend's speech, that the great difficulty W hich_„ he f e lt to t h e proposed ad j ustment of t h e C at h o li c i v :l 4 4ns, arose out of the suggestion of the plasterers and bar -"ert of Dublin,—that by agreeing to it we were infringing • ;II the Protestant Constitution as settled in the year 1688. to if it were suggested to any gentleman who was going sake a change in the settlement of his estate, that fit a settlement was a v i o l a ti on of the laws, would L i t ugh gentleman. go to the Lord Maydr of Dublin.—(A )---or to the pation in the Dock-yards, or e fLi•rtners and graziers of Sussex, and consult them h to the correc t ness of the suggestion ?—(H ear , IV If he were perplexed with the doubts suggested to trh! es would oon discover that there vas no one to ulft lie could so well apply for a solution of them as 1,.., e4 s Who had l oo k e d i n t o the law, and were from their St u t t . Well acquainted with all its intricacies. By a parity os: taa tioing, he thought that the doubts of any reasonable al to wh et h er t hi s a dj ustmen t was i n oppos i t i on to bye Principles of the revolution of 1688, might be satisfied et:Electing. that 327 members of the English Bar, who lisit-e ac customed to consider the meaning of Acts of Par • jud tint, and who were without any interest to warp their te,',P n eot, had petitioned the House in favour of it. They ts;„1 0f Opini on th at i t wou ld no t ma k e an y infringe pir"j °O the law, and in their opinion a large pro gar °f the barristers of Ireland concurred. He now op pro gars that he should have the honour of presenting - Pat6„ °l3ll sY next, a petition in favour of Catholic Emanci- Il ar '''' signed by 100 Protestant Members of the Irish the. ( L oud cries of Hear, hear.) He should also have fr7 ll ; nor. of presenting a petition with the same prayer "tY-sev en Roman Catholic barristers of Ireland. t ioned r) ., l . tea r.) He might be asked, why he had not men- La c ' sooner ? Because the Roman Catholic barristers • la r ll direct interest in the adjustment of the question. The • a,,,,p0-"rlanit barri s t ers , were the y t o measure th e ir own mo th 'id also a di rec t i n t eres t th e o th e r way; and yet, Ward eternal credit be it spoken, they had come f0r i111.64_411,. 1s hund re d o f th em h a d s i gne d a petition, pray thisroutnent to make a final and conciliatory adjustment q ue stion.—(llear, hear.)—Do these three petitions ba r, ar:l i gned by 327 P ro t es ta n t mem b ers o f the English kid the 14s ‘ n ,her , by 100 Protestant members of the Irish bar, t by 67 %mins Catholic barristers of Ireland, give no support to the opinion's of those who say, that in point of law what you now meditate to do for Ireland is no infringementof your Protestant ( Smstitution ?—(Hear. ) It appeared to - him that the petition he had to pre sent was extremely valuable in another respect. II! did not wish to disparage the petitions which his Heilluraltle and Learned Friend had presented ; yet he intist say, that, looking at the petitions of the hat risters of Ireland and their 167 signatures, they were entitled to at least as much re spect as the petitions of the Lord Mayor and Corporation of Dublin, and of the plasterers, bricklayers, and barbers, who followed in their train.—(Hear, hear.)—He was ashamed to have trespassed so lone- upon the indulgence of the House, but when he saw that his Honourable and Learned Friend was seeking to produce an effect upon the House by the pompous enumeration of the different guilds from which his petitions came, he did think it right to an nounce to those who were anxious to come to a just con clusion on this subject, the respectable petitions which he was going to present on the other side of the question. Mr TRANI' denied the justness of the insinuation which his Hon. and Learned Friend, who had just sat down appeared to him anxious to propagate,—namely, that there was scarcely any person but bricklayers and plasterers, and barbers, opposed to the present measures of Government. Anti now, as to the Members of the Irish bar. If he had not been misinformed, the greater part of the gentlemen who were most eminent at that bar were opposed to the measures now proposed. His Hon. and Learned Friend's colleague in office, the Attorney-General for Ireland, was opposed to it. So, too, was Mr. Saurin, and a long list of gentlemen, which he held in his hand, and which, if ne cessary, he could recite. The Irish bar, he had been given to understand, comprised from 500 to 600 persons. His Hon. and Learned Friend said that his petition was signed by a hundred Protestant and 30 or 40 Catholic barristers. (Cries of " No, no ; 67.") Take it at 67 :—and his total does not exceed 167. He mentioned this, because his Hon. and Learned Friend had dwelt with great emphasis on the number of names subscribed to his petition, and had left the House to guess how many there might be on the other side. He had attempted to supply that deficiency. On the general question he had so often troubled the House— (Loud cries of " Hear")—well, it might be that he had troubled the House, but he felt an anxiety with respect to it which he could not control. Ile was considered, in general, a very good setter,—(Hear, and a laugh,)—and he had only risen, for the want of a better man, to address the House on this question.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The petition was then brought up. On the question that it be read, Mr. MOORE said that he (lid not intend to follow his Hon. and Learned Friend, the Solicitor-General for Ire land, through the various points of his long and entertain ing speech. His Hon. and Learned Friend had made, however, one or two observations to which he must be permitted to give an answer. His Hen. and Learned Friend, after making a very extraordinary disparagement of the judgment and information of the humbler classes of his fellow-countrymen, had included within his sarcasms all the different trades front which he had that night had the honour of presenting petitions. The amusing manner in which his Hoe-. and Learned Friend had alluded to them had excited the merriment of the House. For his own part he loved a joke, but by some strange accident he could not enjoy it at the expence of his constituents. In - spite of the sneers which had been directed against him, he would say, that among the individuals whose petitions he had presented were to be found some of the most intelli gent, the most independent, and the best-informed men on every practical subject connected with the state of society in Ireland.—(Cries of hear, hear.) — Let him tell his Hon. and Learned Friend, that the world, since the French Revolution, had furnished too many examples that brilliancy of talent was not always connected with eminence of rank. Let him tell his Hon. and Learned Friend, that though the judgment of the poorest man in the state might not be a title for hint to guide the conduct of Parliament—(a laugh)—still it ought to be taken into consideration. Any man, however " unbril tient " he might be, might produce a useful suggestion ; ' and there was not a subject of this realm whose feelings, and wishes, and prejudices ought not to be treated with respect in Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) In mentioning that respect ought to be paid to the prejudices of the people, he would refer to an authority which he was sure that his lion. and Learned Friend would admit as excellent,—he meant the authority of the late Mr. Canning, who in re ference to this subject, and to the general feelings of the Protestants of the empire in 1827, declared that there was an inert mass of opposition to these claims in the country, which he would not venture upon the responsibi lity of moving. He had perhaps trespassed too long al ready upon the patience of the House, but his Hon. and Learned Friend had made an appeal personal to himself, to which he must ask their indulgence to hear his reply. His Hon. and Learned Friend had told the House that if he (Mr. Moore) had ever applied his understanding to the consideration of this question, he would have come to a conclusion on it similar to his own (Mr. Doherty's.) His Hon. and Learned Friend had alluded to peculiar circum stances—what they were he (Mr. Moore) could not ima gine—which he said had given a bias to his (Mr. Moore's) mind, which had led to his present course of public ac tion. If his Hon. and Learned Friend meant to insinuate that he (Hr. Moore) had adopted certain political opinions in order to get returned for the city which he had then the honour to represent in Parliament, he (Mr. Moore) could tell him (Mr. Doherty) that he (Mr. Doherty) imputed to him (Mr. Moore) that for which there was no founda tion. Ever since he had been able to think on !political subjects, he had come to the conclusions on which he had recently acted. Through all his collegiate life, through all his academical career, even then, when from the influence of youth and the presence of classical associations, the flame of liberty burns brightest—even then he had always tempered his heat with a mixture of loyalty, avowing that true liberty could only be obtained in this country by a strict adherence to the Protestant principles of the British Constitution.—(Hear.) Mr. DOHERTY—I have been particularly unfortunate in delivering my sentiments to-night, if I have said any thing which could be fairly considered to reflect upon the honourable feelings of my Hon. and Learned Friend. I had no such intention. lam convinced that my Hon. and Learned Friend did not adopt his present principles to secure to himself the representation of the city of Dublin.— (Hear, hear.)—l did not make any such charge against hint. All that I insinuated was, that whilst others had allowed their opinions to change with the change of cir cumstances, my Hon. and Learned Friend had remained unchanged, because he would never allow his reason to have fair play upon this question.—(Hear.) Mr. H. GRATTAN bore testimony to the respecta bility of many of the signatures attached to the petitions presented by his Hon. and Learned Colleague. He also said that his Hon. Colleague had gained his seat in that House by the use of two magic words—" Protestant ascendancy." By such means, after four days' labour, and without can vassing 36,000 men, he had achieved that prize which cost him (Mr. H. Grattan) six years' labour to obtain. Mr. WEBB (we believe) would not have said one word upon the present occasion, had the Hon. Member for Gloucester been present to rebut the attack made upon a petition which he had presented, by the Noble and Learned Gentleman who filled the office of Solicitor-General for Ireland. He had received letters requesting him, in case the same system of attack which was directed against other petitions, should be directed against that petition, to repel it by a plain statement of facts. That petition received 600 signatures in two hours. There were no placards issued on our side, but some were published on the other side, containing personal invectives which might better have been spared. Thu petition was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. Mr. MOORE held in his hand a petition from the city of Dublin against the Catholic claims, which was signed by upwards of 4,000 persons, all of whom had added their places of residence to their signatures. Among them were several of the clergy, a great majority of the higher classes of society, and of the respectable and wealthy citizens of Dublin, a considerable portion of the freemen and Pro testant feeholders, and above 400 of the students of the University. This petition might be properly said to speak the great Protestant voice of Ireland. On moving that this petition be brought up,- Mr. NORTH said, that the Hon. and Learned Gentle man had described this petition as conveying the sense of the rising youth of Ireland, and particularly of those of the University of Dublin, as well as of the heads of the so ciety in the Irish metropolis. It had so happened from op portunities which he (Mr. N.) enjoyed, and of which it was unnecessary for him further to speak, that he had the means of knowing what was the opinion of the rising youth of Ireland upon this great question. And accordingly, from his experience and best information, he could truly affirm, that their opinion now, and indee3 for the last twenty years, was favourable to the adjustment of a subject which they felt to involve the peace and tranquillity of their country. He knew, indeed, and probably it was equally familiar to his Hon. and Learned Friend, that men might be found who would consider the Univeisity as a fit and appropriate place to infuse into youthful minds very dif ferent sentiments—who would betray the sacred trust re posed in them, and instead of conducting the path of youth to purity of feeling, and generosity and liberality of con duct, would take the opportunity of infusing into the ten der mind the deadly virus of party strife—(hear)--and at a time too, when the understanding was not matured, and the judgment not clearly directed for the consider of a subject which involved many diflieulties in its various aspects. If such attempts were made in that University, confident he was, they must have been attended w ith signal failure. He could speak positively of the rising youth of the Irish bar, among whom he was very happy to say there only prevailed one sentiment, and it corresponded with that expressed and so often vindicated by his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Doherty), who was so distinguished an ornament of their profession. lie could not speak so fully of the sentiments of another portion of the youth of Ireland, who went forth from the University to the Church of Ireland. But of them, or the great majority of them, he could safely say, that he had seen them preparing for the study of that sacred profession to which they were de stined with principles suitable to their object—he had seen them animated by a pure zeal for their holy religion, fer verstly devoted to infuse the true sentiments of the Protestant religion in Ireland; but he had always heard them upon this particular question of Catholic exclusion say, that they considered it not a religious but a political question, and one which they were prepared to leave to the judg ment of the Government and the Legislature. Mr. MOORE, with regard to his Hon. and Learned Friend's contradiction, could only repeat what he had said before, and what was demonstrated by the petition itself, —that it was signed by a considerable portion of the stu dents of the University of Dublin, and he had further the best assurance for believing, that these sentiments were participated in by 49 out (4;50 of the rising youth of Ire land. If there were any disingenuous influence at work to obtain these signatures, he could assure his Hon. and Learned Friend that it was entirely unknown to him. Mr. CROKER could have no doubt that the persons who had signed this petition, were highly respectable, and that the opinion of such a portion of the youth of Ireland as had concurred in it was equally entitled to whatever re spect was due to the sentiments of persons passing through, probably, the first stage of their education. But were he even to go all the lengths which the Hon. and Learned Member did, in enforcing the prayer of the petition--wer e he to ♦iew it, not as an expression of youthful opinion, but of matured knowledge, emanating from those who were perfectly educated, who understood the laws of their country, and had experience of their bearings upon the community exposed to their operation, for it was expe rience which was the strongest and best of all the learning that could he applied to this subject —were he to admit all this, how far would he go in embodying the opinions of the people of Ireland, gathered during the 28 or 30 years which this question had been agitated among them ? What ever merits belonged to the youth who had signed this peti tion, it would be unfair to bestow on them the possession of the light of experience—but how came it, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had armed himself with arithmeti cal strength upon this occasion, and boasted that 49 out of 50 of the youth of Ireland were in favour of this petition. If so, why had they not signed it?—(Hear, hear.)—The numbers computed by the Hon. Member as subscribers to this petition were not one-sixth of the number entered on the books of Trinity College. If forty-nine out of fifty of the rising youth of Ireland, as he asserted, thought with him, then why had he not more than one-sixth of them upon his list, when his cause called for their appearance? Were the fact as he had stated, instead of being, as he (Mr. Croker) knew it to he, the reverse, he did not think it the best or the wisest policy to proclaim that Intolerance had raised her seat in an University whose noble origin gave her the proud title of being the eldest daughter of the Reformation,—an ' University which had always shown her legitimate title to that high distinction, by her toleration and general modem tion of opinions, by her liberal opening of education to per sons of other sects, by her mild and gentle bearing in all her ways, in the spirit of her benevolent foundation. When gentlemen thought proper to refer in this manner to the University of Dublin, it was time to inform them, that she had not thought proper to express any opinion upon, or take any part in, the present agitation of the great ques tion which now divided the national attention. In for.. bearing from doing so, she had evinced great wisdom, and much propriety : her walls enclose for purposes of educa tion large masses of Protestant and Catholic students. It became her to abstain from flinging the torch of discord into ranks among which inflammable spirits may reside. She has taken the part that became her under such circum stances. But there was an appeal which spoke her senti ments far more forcibly than the loudest tongue could utter —the impressive lesson of her silence in the midst of all these elements of excitement. She had on a for mer occasion petitioned this House against concession. In this crisis, this acme of excitement, she remained silent; he was therefore entitled to say, that she was the friend of toleration, and contented to leave this question at the calm disposal of the Legislature, having with good taste and pro priety abstained from agitating it in a place of education, where it could only lead to the diffusion of political rancour and hatred. Either the P,rotestant seal had much declined, or it could not find vent, for the proof was in the paucity of names to such petitions as this. He had himself re peatedly canvassed the suffrage of the University, as an old and tried supporter of the Catholic claims, and he had re ceived support upon principles diametrically opposite to those which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman asserts. So much for the sentiments of the University of Dublin. Mr. MOORE said, that the Hon. and Learned Gentle man should recollect, that at the time when he (Mr. Moore) had canvassed the University of Dublin, there prevailed very peculiar circumstances, and that when the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had afterwards succeeded there, it was on the strength of promises made at a former election, which, had he (Mr. Moore) continued to offer himself, he must have preferably received from such parties. If occasion shonld recur, he feared the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would, upon the same ground, be compelled to endure a very great disappointment. It would then be seen who was the favourite. Mr. CHOKER must tell the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman, that he flattered himself exceedingly with his ex pectation, that whatever became of him (Mr. Croker), a Protestant bigot could ever hope to represent the Univer sity of Dublin.—( Hear. )—Surely it was only necessary to refer to the names of those who had represented it, to de monstrate that this kind of intolerance could not find ad mission there. Take the names during the whole of the time that this Catholic question had been agitated. In 1793 the University was represented by Mr. Browne and Mr. Hutchinson, who were both in favour of the Catholic question ; next by Mr. George Knox, the very person who, in the Irish Parliament, brought forward a motion to admit Catholics into the Legislature. For a short time after, the University was, Ire knew, represented by Mr. Foster, who has, like other enlightened men, lately changed his previous opinions, which were anti-Catholic, into those of the promoters of concession. After him came the ablest advocate the Catholics ever bad in Parliament, Lord Plunket, who had been repeatedly returned for the Uni versity. With the single exception, then, of Mr. Foster, the University of Dublin has, since 1793, when these Catholic discussions became urgent, returned representa tives who were always favourable to the Catholic claims. The petition was laid on the table. • Mr. HENRY WHITE presented petitions in favour of the Catholic claims from Whitechurch, Sandiford, and other parts of the county of Dublin, where all the rank of the resident nobility were agreed upon this question, and where the names of the chief residents would be found con curring in the desire to put an end to these religious dis qua;ifications. - Sir F. BURDETT—I have a petition to lay before the House from the Roman Catholics of Ireland, and I trust it will be the last time I ever shall be called upon to present it. At the same time, I shall claim attention to another petition, demanding equal consideration : and I am sure it will receive it when I state the honourable manner in which it has been prepared and signed, without induce ment or solicitation, by eight thousand inhabitants of Lon don, who have also annexed their places of residence. No person was allowed to sign for another; and, as a proof, I may mention that a gentleman of the name of Holdsworth, of Argyle-street, by a note requested that his name might be added to the rest, but the request could not be com plied with. The petition may be looked upon as a fair sample of the sense of the enlightened Protestant inhabit ants of the kingdom—as fair a sample of the Protestant sense as the other petition I have to present is of the Catholic feeling. Much has been said in the course of these discussions about the manner in which petitions have been got up, and the weight to which they are entitled : no man can be more unwilling than I am to cast a slur on petitioners, and still more to th row any i mpe di men t in the way of petitioning; but circumstances must be . taken into considerations, and we well know that all the worst passions have been appealed t o , th a t every thi ng that could excite animosity and rouse vulgar and obsolete prejudices has been brought forward on the one side, and it is fit that some distinction should be made between the two kinds of petitions. No persons who have seats in this House would condescend to such a course ; but there are persons throughout the country endeavouring to pro duce feelings the most violent an d a b sur d , not merely b y addresses but by prints, so that those who cannot even read are still enlisted on the side of illiberality. I have one of these productions in my possession, representing a person with a torch in one hand and cat o'nine-tails in the other, and this representation is accompanied with some curious anec dotes of Priests. Then we have a view of the Pope, Guy Faux, and what is called " the D e li g h ts of Popery, " w i t h other monstrous and insane absurdities, o f w hi c h no l oan not led away by folly and passion would be guilty. That which is addressed to the understanding of the people, if I may so say, is well worthy of that which more immediately appeals to the it eyes. Aiming other things we are told, in one of the publicationa, "It is an article of the Roman Catholic religion that no faith is to be kept with heretics, and that Roman Catholics arc not bound &ica by the most sacred oaths." Then are subjoined a number of ques tions, such as " Who burnt to death the Protestants in 1519 ?" " Who burnt them in 1520 ?" " Who was the author of the Gunpowder Plot ?" " Who massacred 200,000 Irish Protestants in 1611 ?" " Who are now as sisting the Catholics—but the uniform opposers of the Ca binet and of the Throne for the last twenty years?" This last question seems a little illatimed, at the moment when the Duke of Wellington and the Right Hon. Home Se cretary, who have uniformly supported the Cabinet and the Throne for the last 20 years, are also supporters of concession. Such things are almost beneath notice ; and they would be quite beneath it, but for the baseness and malignity of the design with which they are circulated: It is ridiculous to suppose that any sensible thinking or well-educated person would be affected by them, and it is gratifying enough to see how little they have operated upon the class which was intended to be influenced by them. Undoubtedly a very great number of peti tions have been presented ; but when we know that they have been got up by frauds of this description, what importance can we attach to them? No wonder that such as were thus alarmed should subscribe petitions. If they believed the representations to be true, it was natural that they should hasten to affix their names ; but petitions thus got up are evidently not entitled to the consideration which, under other circumstances, they would receive. Some lion. Members, on this side of the House too, have said, with more candour than justice, that we ought not to be too nice in examining how petitions have been got up, and that errors would be found on both sides. It seems to me that this statement is founded on a degree of over-candour, and that it is not doing justice to the petitions in favour of the Claims to admit its correctness. I believe that no peti- tions for concession have been obtained by any such means. I hope and trust that this is the last time I shall have oc casion to say a syllable on this question, and I will, there fore, take this opportunity of addressing a few parting words to the House ; and I shall then take my leave of the topic with the utmost satisfaction._ It must be a source of much gratification that the measures have already produced a most beneficial effect in Ireland, and in future I am sure that we shall see all the pleasing anticipations of the King's Ministers realised. I had no notion, however, that the first fruits would have ripened so speedily. Not only is the Catholic Association at an end—of which body it is but justice to say that it took the earliest opportunity of reliev ing us from the embarrassment or offence that might be taken at their existence, but other advantages have succeed ed. The moment the recommendation came from the throne, supported by the ability and good faith of the Government, the Catholic Association threw itself on the justice and judg ment of the Legislature, so that in Ireland at present there are no agitators, and there is no agitation : even the Anti- Catholic agitators have disappeared ; for while they addressed themselves to the most ignorant passions they obtained no re sponse. They, therefore, left the question to be discussed by Parliament, and to be decided upon its own merits by the proper tribunal. The able statement of the Right Hon.illorne Secretary leaves little for any man to say upon the general question ; and it was no sooner received in Ireland than, I am authorised to say, that even the Bruns wick and Orange Clubs were at an end, and the respect able persons of all parties at once made a voluntary move ment towards reconciliation. The Brunswickers were met with open arms by the Catholics, and every thing indi cated peace, harmony, and good will. Much has been said in reprobation of the conduct of the Right Honourable Gentleman, and it is unnecessary for me to undertake his defence ; but when it is said that his character has been any way injured, I beg to ask what is the foundation of the character of any man? They do not impeach his honour, or the integrity of his motives—the benevolent desire to conciliate and tranquillize can he no impeachment of his heart. On what other grounds does character rest ? If intellectual power be to be taken into the account, the Right Hon. Gentleman was convinced of the necessity of the measure, his masterly and manly speech carried the same conviction to the House. But there is no imputa tion in that respect. There are no reasonably strong grounds for such a representation ; and no doubt it has arisen from the circumstance of some Hon. Gentlemen being attributed to merely momentary feelings, and to the angry sense of some disappointment, more than to any real depreciation of the character of the Right Hon. Gentleman in their estimation ; and I do expect that on a little re flection, they will soon be willing to confess their mistake, both as to the results of these measures, and as to all the observations that have been made on the manner in which they have been introduced. It is impossible for me to take leave of this subject without adverting, with feelings of the highest gratification, to the able assistance the Right Hon. Gentleman has received from the excellent speech of Lis Right Hon. Colleague, the Secretary for the Colonies. I must say, that since I have sat in Parliament I have never heard a more effective or eloquent speech, and it was to me a source:of great gratification to hear it from the lips of a soldier, because I have always had a strong feeling of regard and friendship towards the body of gentlemen of that profession, than whom none are more enlightened or benevolent, nor of any class can it be said more fairly or truly, that they are men of the world, in the most honourable sense of the words, and that their experience makes them more practically acquainted with the affairs of mankind than other persons, and more calculated for what they are thought not to be in well qualified for—the Ad= ministration of the affairs of Nations. The Right Hon. and Gallant gentleman read, from the ranks of the Army, a lecture well worthy of the mediation of the Church.— (Cheers.)—We must, with reference to it, adopt the re verse of the old adage—" Gedunt arena toga.". But the most eloquent and admirable passage of his speech was one so honourable to his feelings and to his understanding; it comprises so much argument in so small a compass, and goes so directly from the heart of the speaker to the heart of the hearer, that I cannot praise it too highly; it is that iu which, deprecating the civil dissensions that arise from the existing state of the law as to religious opinions, the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer said, " We have no such regulations in the Army.—(Cheers.)—There we have no religious distinctions. Catholics and Protestants sleep in the same tent, march in the same rank, and mount the same breach together.—(Loud cheers.)—They are only emulous of performing the save deeds of glory. They are buried in the same grave, and they rest in the hope of salvation front the same Redeemer."—(Continued cheers.) —This eloquent passage, from the lips of a military man, I will cite as an answer to the senseless cry of " No Popery ;" and when any sentiments are attributed to persons which they never uttered, for sonic fraudful and mischievous purposes, I would have that passage inscribed in letters of gold, and with it I would enrich the walls of every cottage in England, and of every cabin in Ireland. —(Great cheering.)—With respect to the measures of relief and conciliation themselves, and the Noble Duke at the head of his Majesty's Government, who has con ducted them to their present state, and will, I have no doubt, guide them finally to a happy issue, I may now say he is •' With surpassing glory crowned." I can only, in common with the rest of my fellow country men, who will, I am sure, all be joined in a very, very short time indeed, in acknowledging how much we owe to the ability and talent displayed on this important occasion by the Noble Duke, and who in one accord will render their thanks for the benefits which all, in a short time, will perceive, and must approve. I remember a passage in a great writer of our own country, Harrington, which recurs to my mind very strongly, with reference to the formation of the present Administration : " There is in military men a peculiar capacity to become the leaders of the Aristocracy, and in the government of States, which is the peculiar business of gentlemen." This is a striking illustratioa of the truth of the observation I have already made—(Cheers.)—Th e petitions I have to present are from the Catholics of Ireland, and from the people of the metropolis, in their favour. But if I speak only of the Catholics of Ireland, I mean of course, in all the observa tions I have made this evening, to apply what I have said as fully with reference to the Catholics of England, as to the Catholics of Ireland. If I have not mentioned the Catholics of England, nobody can forget that they have always, as a public body and as individuals, been free from all reproach. Their conduct is above all praise ; and when they are received back to that place in which they ought to be in relation to the Constitution, we shall then have an • united Empire, and this House will no longer have its time taken up, as it has been for too long a period, with this question, and the interests of the country, both foreign and domestic, will receive more ample consideration, and be promoted in a much greater degree tha n th ey can poss ibl y b e at presen t. Is it nothing to look forward with the most sanguine expec tations as to the effects to be derived from the measures that have been introduced by his Majesty's Government? I have this morni ng h a d a l etter f rom I re l an d communi • cated to me, the contents of which I will make known to the House, because I own I had no conception that there would have :b een so spee di ly an ef f ect so ex t r aordinary. This letter is from Clonmel, where, it seems, the Quakers are a considerable body, and were extremely opposed to the Catholic c l a i ms. I n this letter, , we haveinforma tion that there has been a reconciliation between the most adverse of those opposed to the Catholics, and that the work of c onc ili at i on i s procee di ng at a rapid rate. At this town of Cioninel, fur ezampla, the Quakers lot med a strong political party against the Catholics, but soon after the King's Speech on the opening of this Session of Parliament, several Quakers, respectable merchants in the town, proposed to the I. ;tilers of the Catholic party, through their Secretary, that measures should be taken to reconcile the Catholics to the Quakers, who, it was stated, would readily aleveion all s!:els hestili•y to the Catholics. The Catholic leaders nut only read this with great satisfaction, but they declared that they wished the reconciliation not to be postponed for a single day, and they proposed that the parties should meet, and parade the streets arm in arm together, and thus publicly manifest their friendly sentiments towards each other. They did so accordingly, and every body cheered them, and "party spirit," the letter says in conclusion, "seems suddenly at an end."—(Cheers.) Why, then, should we not, having reason, if not experience, for our guide, get further on in history than we have actually reached, and looking on the year 1529 retrospectively, and judging by the example of the States where the principle of the quality of civil rights has been established without reference to religious opi-• nions, as it has been in so many countries through the world, new and old ; why then, I say, should we not expect with some assurance of certainty, that the same tranquillising and beneficent effects will be pro duced here ? I do hope that those Honourable Gen tlemen who entertain what I believe to be very honest prejudices and opinions, with regard to this question, will see some reason in our expectations, when they look to the facts, at home and abroad, to which I have called their attention; and that they will feel that there is some ground, at least, for reducing the apprehensions they suffer as to the success of these measures. I have no doubt myself that the same good consequences will result here as in all other countries where the same principle has been adopted. Look for a moment at France—a country for merly hostile to this country, and which used to support a party connected with the Catholic religion, and endanger ing the Protestant Establishments of England. See in what a different situation now men are placed in that libe ral and enlightened country, where all persons, of all reli gions, are not merely tolerated, but where Protestant and Catholic Deputies sit in the smile Chamber, by each others' side, so freely that it is impossible for any one to learn who belongs to one sect, and who to another. When we see the universal peace now prevailing in that country, for merly so convulsed with religious quarrels; when we see all there at rest and in happiness, surely it is not too much to expect that the same results will follow here—(Cheers.) I offer up my ardent prayer that it may be so, and so saying, I express my fervent hope that I may never again be called upon to say another word on this subject.— (Cheers).—The Hon. Baronet concluded by moving that the petitions be brought up. The petitions were, one from the Roman Catholics of Ireland, and the other from a large body of the inhabitants of the Metropolis. Mr. TRANT censured the eulogium which the Hon. Baronet had thought proper to pronounce on a military government.—(" No,. no.")—Certainly the Honourable Baronet said that circumstances had proved that military men Were in the whole best suited and calculated to carry on the Government of the country at the present moment. So at least he understood the Honourable Baronet, and he believed his ears had not deceived him. How long the Hon. Gentleman had been of this opinion he could not say. Ile believed, however, that the Hon. Member once held opinions of a different nature. He could only say for himself, that he was not quite so much enamoured of a military government as the Hon. Baronet appeared to be. Lord LEVESON GOWER—I rise to express my en tire approbation of all that has been said by the Hon. Baronet, and my gratification at what he has stated re specting what I may almost call the premature reception of this measure in Ireland. It might have been ex pected that its reception on the part of his Majesty's Ro man Catholic subjects would have been attended with something like the intoxication of victory, or the insolence of triumph.—(Hear, hear.)—By any thing I can learn from the accounts daily received in the transaction of of ficial business with Ireland, I find that the measure has been received by the Catholics in that calm, and rea sonable, and satisfactory way, which does reflect the greatest honour on the Catholic population, and on that portion of the King's Protestant subjects who have ad vocated their Claims. I believe they have received the announcement of the intentions of his Majesty's Govern ment with a warm but temperate though zealous gratitude to the Sovereign to whom will belong the singular glory, in addition to all other brilliant acts of his reign, of con summating his fame by the completion of these mea sures.—(Cheers.)—lf ever I apprehended, on an occa sion like the present, that we should fail in carrying this measure ; if I ever dreaded that it would one day come too late for any useful purpose; if ever I was afraid that the book of the Sybil had been burnt once too often ; I now consider all my apprehensions unfounded. With regard to what has been said by the Honourable Member for Dover as to a Military Government, I confess that I have followed, and that I do follow, the political banners of a Noble Duke, in which I have little less confi dence than I could, under other circumstances, in follow ing his military banners, which never were unfurled but for victory.—(Cheers.) There may be difficulties attend ing the completion of these measures. I will not dwell on the scenes of the Noble Duke's military story ; nor on the plains of Assaye, where his first victory was gained ; nor on the field of Vimiera, where he beat the veteran troops of France; nor on the lines of Torres Vedras; did any prospect of glory expand open to that Noble Duke which teemed with such illustrious achievements as he has now before him.—(Loud cheers.) If the sound wisdom and good fortune which have hitherto followed him through the long history of his splendid life, should be crowned, I hope not closed, with the glory of accomplishing this mea sure, it will, in the comparison, even impair the lustre of his former renown.—(Great cheering.) If I had one prayer to utter for myself and those around me, it should be that I may live to see that day, and happy indeed I shall be when I do witness it—when the names with which we have been so long familiarized shall be laid aside, when liberated Spain and subjugated France shall be raised for freed and placid Ireland.—(The Noble Lord sat down amidst general cheering.) Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN observed, the petition presented by the Hon. Baronet was signed, as had been stated, by 8,000 or 9,000 individuals. He knew no thing at all of the persons by whom it had been got up, nor was he aware previous to coming into the House that it was to be presented this evening. All lie knew was, that he had seen the place on Cornhill where the petition lay for signature, he had gone in without being personally known to the people who superintended the signing of it, and he observed that every individual who applied for the purpose ofattaching his signature, was asked where he lived, and told to put his residence as well as his name to the docu ment. This was perfectly fair—there was no trick or ar tifice resorted to—he met one gentleman, who, on going into the place and inquiring the nature of the petition, was told plainly that it was in favour of the Catholic claims— no attempt at delusion or deception was made ; and an other gentleman who went in by mistake was told the same, and declined signing it. These circumstances came under his own observation, and proved that very different means were resorted to as regarded this petition from those which were adopted in the case of petitions of a con trary tendency. He would not trespass further on the at tention of the House at present, but intended to take an other opportunity to state some facts and circumstances that had come within his own knowledge relative to the artifices resorted to in getting up anti Catholic petitions. Lord NUGENT, with reference to the subject of a mili tary Government, observed, that the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Westminster, merely said there was nothing in the character of a military commander to incapacitate him from looking largely, wisely, and liberally at matters of state policy. Could the Hon. Member for Dover say nothing for the labours of the Convention Parliament which sat in 1655, and was happily the means of introducing into England the great soldier who afterwards conducted our Government ? Could he see in the exertions of that Par liament nothing but an effort to introduce a military govern ment ?—(Hear.)—lf the Hon. Member for Dover could see no distinction between the Hon. Baronet's just eulogium of the Duke of Wellington's Administration, and an ap proval of the principle of a military Government, it was not the fault of the Hon. Baronet, but of the Hon. Member al h ßan i ta m di rvo s eh e ne l et f a . otl atnit l-I :deje e t Ihvreoe tranquillizingujNo n i do c sb e d at Noble fL t Lord, r t ad h : e c etoehffuveeincdstterenyoec.fre Secretary ttalG, offered yso d fgogri which he sincerely trusted wou ld remove ther.ebaalnatrnettmliamleneosities that ad tim e orrnee friends of this measure might not be deceived as to its ex pected consequences. He trusted and believed that they would prove right in their anticipations. Mr. C. PALLMER had one observation to make with reference to an assertion made by time Hon. Baronet as to the mode of getting up anti-Catholic petitions. He was ready to admit that a large proportion of the petitions might have been signed by individuals urged on by their fears and feelings, and not easily capable of being influenced by argument. Bnt he wished to exclude from this con clusion, the presumption, supposing the arts complained of by the Hon. Baronet to have been used, that the larger portion of the petitions were the consequences of them. He was not then going to follow the Hon. Baronet into the distinction which lie had drawn between the sentiments entertained by the intelligent part of the community and the opinions of more uninstructed persons upon this ques thin. Of this he felt certain, that, if the question wcre to he th•l'l:?Cd between the Hon. Baronvt and hint by nutnbers wonld be detcrmintll in his (Mr. PaHiner's) favour. He defied any lion. Gentleman opposite to he more rejoiced than be titould be if the measure were to be generally re ceived with the cordiality, and finally attended by the tranquillity, security, and advantage which its authors ap rared to expect from it. The two petitions, which purported to he those of cet - tain Irish Catholics, and of 8,000 Protestant inhabitants, householders, and wale adults of London, Westminster, and their vicinity, and prayed for the equal admission of Roman Catholics to civil privileges, were then read, laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. Petitions to the same ere t were presented by Mr. A. Stewart, from Kilrea, in the county of Londonderry; by Mr. Lamb, limn a place (we believe)in the neighbourhood of Dangarvon ; by Mr. asthope, from the Protestant Dissenters of Hainsworth, Gloucestershire; by Sir W. Ingilby, from Long Sutton, in the county of Lincoln; and by Sir H. Parnell, from Maryborougb, Stradballv, and two other places in Ireland.—They were ordered to be printed. Petitions against the Roman Catholic claims were pre sented from the Protestant Dissenters of Plymouth, from Irvington, Walharopton, and another place, by Mr. I3as. taid ; from a parish in Northamptonshire, by Mr. eig son ; from Rushden, in the same enunty, by Mr. Cart_ wright ; from Midillesham, in the canity of Suffolk, Mr. Trant ; from Cannon, in the county of S.-dop, by Lord Uxbridge ; from Clonfert, in the county of Galway. and Newcastle, in the county of Limerick; and als9 from certain Noblemen, Gentlemen, Clergy, and Freeholders of the county of Clare, by Lord Tullamore ; and from a place in Monmouthshire, by Lord Granville Somerset. They were ordered to be printed. Mr. Secretary PEEL presented the petition of the silk throwsters, praying for further protection to the home manufacturers. The Right Hon. Member also said, he had been charged to present a variety of petitions, some against further concessions to the Roman Catholics— namely, the petition of the clergy of Cloaca and Kil laloe, from the clergy of the diocese of Clonfcrt. He had also a petition from the inhabitants of Norton-on-the Moors, and from Chichester, and a parish in the county of Forfar, in favour of the meditated concession. He had also several petitions to present from the Catholics of Longford, in the county of Tyrone, of Tullamore, of Killmachrone, in the county of Galway, and a parish in Monaghan, in favour of the meditated concessions to the Catholics. He could not but remark, that the tone of these petitions from the Roman Catholic parishes of Ire land were undoubted indications that they were satisfied with the terms on which they understood the arrangements now in progress were to be made.—(Hear.)—He had not, he acknowledged, expected to have found those terms would have given so much satisfaction to the Catholic body ; but he had been greatly disappointed in finding there was so strong a disposition, both on the part of both Catholics and Protestants, to bring their differences to a final conclusion, and aid his Majesty's Ministers in the adjustment of a question so fraught hitherto with difficul ties and excitement. MILITIA BALLOT. Mr. PEEL gave notice he should take an early oppor tunity of moving that there should take place a postpone ment of the ballot for the Militia until the conclusion of the Session, in order to afford time to bring in a Bill to put the Militia, and more particularly the permanent staff of it, on a new footing.—(Hear.) Colonel DAVIES moved for returns of the number of the male convicts transported, in the two preceding years, to New South Wales and Van Dien►au's Land.—Ordered. ➢lr. MOORE gave notice he should on Monday pre sent the petition of the Protestants of Dublin against furaer concession. MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES. Mr. DAWSON, in moving the Order of the Day for the house resolving itself into a Committee on the Miscel laneous Estimates, observed, that he was happy to state, that in the estimates of the present year there would be found a saving of 110,000/. had accrued to the country by the system of retrenchment which had been adopted this year, as compared with the estimates of last year. He should apprize the House also, that the whole of the works which had been comprized within the superintendence of the Lord Chamberlain's department had been transferred this year to the department of the Surveyor-General, by which alone a saving had been effected of 20,000/. The House having resolved itself into a Committee, The Hon. Member proposed a vote of 32,5001. to defray the expences 'of Public Buildings, and for their repairs for 1809. £7,000 for Works on the Harbour of Portratriek. £B,OOO for same at Donaghadee. £20,000 for same at the Harbour of George IVth, at Kingstown, near Dublin. £13,000 for the new buildings at the British Museum and the Royal Library. . . £214,500 on account of alterations and repairs at Windsor Castle, for the present year. £5,000 in aid of expense of erecting Churches in the West Indies. £12,649 Holyhead and Howth Roads and Harbour. £4,886 for the Caledonian Canal. £38,500 salaries and allowances to the Officers of the Houses of Lords and Commons. £24,400 Expenses of both Houses. £87,368 to make good the fee fund dcficiences in the Treasury and other Departments. £68;991 Treasury Contingencies and Messengers' Bills; also those of the Home, Foreign, and Colonial Offices. £6,500 as compensation to the Commissioners ap pointed to inquire into the Collection of the Revenue in Ireland. £6,200 salaries to Officers in the Exchequer. £9SS ss. salaries to Professors at Orford and Cam bridge. £11,524 salaries to Commissioners and Clerks. £4,660 ss. salaries to Superintendents of Aliens and Superannuation Allowances. £24,000 Penitentiary at Millbank. .:£19,236 Charges of retired Allowances to Officers of the Public Departments. £13,770 Relief to Toulon and Corsican Emigrants, Dutch and St. Domingo Officers, for losses sustained in our service. £2,500 National Vaccine Establishment. £3,000 Refuge for the Destitute. £4,300 for Relief of American Loyalists. £3,700 15s. for maintaining Criminal Lunatics. £5,812 7s. 10d. usual Allowances to Protestant Dis senting Ministers, French Refugee Clergy and Laity. £45,000 Foreign and Secret Service Money. £BO,OOO Parliamentary Printing. £8,200 Printing Public Records. £97,270 Stationary, Printing, and Binding in Public Departments. XlO,OOO Mint and Ceinage Expenses. £6,500 Prosecutions for Coinage. £15,000 Expence of Law Charges. £loB'ooo Expense of Convicts at Home and Bermuda. £lB,OOO Slave Commissioners under 58th and 59th Geo. 111. £28,000 Expense of Missions, Commissions, &e., to New States of America. £89,470 Consuls and Consuls-General. £105,970 Consular service Abroad, and Superannua tion Allowances. _ On this Estimate he observed there was a saving this year to the public of £8,400. £120,000 for Expences of Convicts in New South Wales and Van Dieman's Land. £3,040 Civil Establishment of the Bahama Isles. £10,445 Nova Scotia. £3,600 New Brunswick. £4,000 Bermuda Islands. £2,820 Prince Edward's Island. £16,828 Newfoundland and the Erection of the Go vernor's House. £10,47$ ss. 10d. Sierra Leone. £l,OOO Gold Coast, Cape Coast Castle, and Accra. X 16,152 Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in the Colonies. £47,500 charges incident to our Settlements at New South Wales, Sierra Leone, and Canada. £163,000 for Improving the Water Communication be tween Montreal and the Ottowa, and from Lake Et ie to Lake Ontario. £160,000 Civil Contingencies for 1829. £700,000 for the extraordinary Expences of the Army for 1829. The Chairman was ordered to report the resolutions to the House, and the report was ordered to be received on Monday. Mr. DAWSON gave notice he should on Monday move the House into a Committee on the Commissariat Estimates. The other Orders of the day were then read. _ _ The Hon. Member then moved for leave to bring in a Bill to enable parties to recover money from the Court of Chaacery under the authority of Acts subsequ&ntly re pealed. Leave was granted, and at a later period of the evening the Hon. Member brought in the Bill. PETTY COURTS OF LAW. Mr. D. W. HARVEY moved for a variety of abstract returns for the years 1826 and 1827, showing the number of courts of law in the country, whether courts of record