The Sun. — London, England, 1829-03-07 00:00:00

; but tie Lotal inu,t rhyubtless be aware of the manner in which the ptition from Burnley had been got alp. It was a petition not proposed at any public meet ing, but got up in a private manner, and sent round the town and neighbowring villages for signatures. He field ih his hand a letter to that effect, and also inkrnting him that a counter-petit:on was about to h e ,rat up i n th e s•tmc The petition was rend. The Marquis of CIIANDOS rose to pre!rnt another )),tition against the CAtholic Claims. PAULET ST. JOHN ?.IILDMAY put it to the Time.: whether they ought to go on receiving petitions at that t•• or of the evening.. They laid now been sitting two tours and a half, and as they were likely to rise almut tlee;ve .'elock, there would be no more than six liners kit for the tliscus:iion of the great question which all were •rroxierus to set at rest. Tire eyes of the country were turn them, and ihey ought to a•voiil *every unnecessary Ylelay. The peti-ions not yet resented might be brought op on a future evening, with equal advantage to the pit-- ties frevA whom they Arnie.—(Hear, hear.)—lle moved th.e Order of the . 7.?ay for resuming- the adjourned debate upon the - root:ion of going into a Committee upon the Catholic DAMN. Mr. 71ENRY GRATTAN rose, and was about to ad dress th e House, when The SPEAKER askei if the Flog. Almnber rose to seeo:ul the Amendment? Mr. HENRY GRATTAN rose for the purpose of aniking a motion. The SPEA'KER said, the Hon. Mambet must he aware th:it onlie no motion aft.-zr an amendment had been ma-red. He then asked who secanded the amend. sawnt is 1 1 .1 r. HENRY GRATTAN said, he was about to move amen.lnvut. The St'AINIEI: told the Hon. Member that the Hontse too dd not entertain two Amendments at the same time. The 31trgitis of CHANDOS here obserrett, that if he NV prevente ''com preaenting petitir:m, he would divide the Hot Ne. Surely the people_ bad a right to be heard within the walls of that Hmise. Mr. Secretary Plan was quite sure that his Noble Friend would agree with him in thinking that !Am ;twos-. s'on upon this important question ouglq, to be conducted with evety good feeling on both sith", and that it tvoul4 ill (Peony.) Hon, Members to tlitfer and mike a staid upon treltay points.—( Heat - ) letr.)—Being on his legs, it Wight, perhaps, b.:2 convenient that he should state, at th't 'stage of the preeeedings the course which he meant to purs sue. If he should to night or any other night sot:seed in s•intying the motion last night brought forward, he wouhl then move a Resolution for the Repeal of all the Civil Di!"- ohilities under which the Roman Cabo lal.ec.ed, with sufficient security with respect to Chwtel and State, and the safety of tire Protestant Estalfl.ishm.mt, and the rights *NO privileges of the ProtestAtlt Clergy. If that Resolution was agre.cd to, he would then move for leave to bring in a jlf fnunded on that Resolution ; and also for leave to bring in another Bill to regulate the Elective Franshitie,-4oud cries of " Hear, hear.'')—This to could not expect to d o before Monday next, and then he should feel quite satisfied to have the printed, and wait until the following Mon day, when lion. n0ni, , :41, would conic to the discussion with a knowledge of the measures proposed by aovern- Lnent.—(Hear, hear.)—lle knew the kind and generous nature 01 his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Chandos) too well, net to suppose that he would, under such circum stances, give way, mu( allow the petitions to be presented at a future stage of the proceedings.—(Hear, hear.) The Martinis of CHANDOS sail, 1;e should feel happy himself of the suggestion of his Right Hon. Friend opon any other occasion ; but at present lie was deter rnintst to act up= his own judgment, and would cent iinly the House upon the motion before it. Mr. P. MILDMAY said it was not his intention to press to a division. He would leave it to the Noble Lord to consider hoe far it was right to stop public business by the introduction of petitions, which might be presented with equal effect at a future period. _ _ Mr. Sccretary PEEL said it ' , vas hardly fair to interrupt los Noble Friend in pre.enting the petitions entrusted to Lim. (Cries of " Go on, go on.") The petition crts thr presented, and ordered to lie on the table.. Colonel SIBTHORPE, in rising to present a petition against further concessions, said it was the duty of that House to pau.e before they proceeded with this question.— (Hear, hear.)—lt was their duty not to proceed any fur ther with this detestable Bill.—(Loud laughter, and cries of hear.)—lt was a measure that would sap the best strengh of the Constitution--(Hear, hear.)—He did say that it was their duty to abstain from proceeding any fur ther with the measure.—(Cheers and laughter.) Hon. rilernbrrs might laugh—he cared as little for their smiles as lie did for their frowns—he should treat them both with ereign contempt.—(Cheers and laughter.)—lf they wet,: disposed to smile, he would say, "rise inepto res aneptior n ulla est."—(Cheers.)—He begged to be allo wed to bring up the petition.—lt was received, and °Meted to lie on the table. Loud cries of " Peel, Peel! the midst of which— [ —debate, debate !" arose, in Mr. PALLIER addressed the House. Me said that, in his opinion, there was no subject snore deserving the immediate attention of the House than the petitions of the people. With that feeling he would divide the House against proceeding with the discussion while a single peti tion remained to be presented, even though he should di vide it alone. An Hon. MEMBER, whose name we could not learn, trusted that time would be allowed to allay the angry feel ings at presentexisting, and to prevent the repetition of such extraordinary speeches as that wLich had recently been delivered. The call for resuming the debate here became so loud and general, that the Speaker rose to put the question; and a division took place, when the numbers were— For 'resuming the debate 205 fsgainst it 76 Majority —l29 Mr. C. GRANT—I should be unwilling to trespass on the attention of the House at this moment ; but, Sir, I must confess that I feel myself extremely desirous of ex pressing my opinion with respect to the subject of this de bate. If the House will permit me, I will, however, first refer to one remark made by an Hon. Friend of mine (the Member for Oxford) in the course of his speech last night. He observed, that the ground on which this measure is at present put forward is entirety changed from what it has been for some years past ; for that it has been for a long time advocated upon principles of right and justice, but is now moved on the principles alone of expediency anal necessity. As I have always been the humble, but sincere and zealous advocate of such a measure, I may be per mitted to say, that in my present as itt my past opinion, I retain most cordially my admiration of those great prin ciples. And if we do not press those principles as formerly, it is not that we are in the slightest degree less sensible of their importance and worth ; but because the question is now surrounded with peculiar and additional eircumetancee; and it is in reference to these circumstances that,the ground of necessity is now adopted. As often as this question has been brought forward by the great men now no more, it has been advocated on the grounds of inviolable right and justice, but it has also been advocated, at the same time, on the ground of necessity.—( Hear, hear.)—That necessity has been stated to be more or less remote ; it has 'owe questioned by some—it has been denied by many; but there is this peculiarity in the subject, at the present moment, that the necessity is no longer distant or remote, or only barely probable, but it is above us, around us, and upon us, and presses us on every side. I do not think I am taking an exaggerated view of the stateof feeling created by this subject, when I express my opi - that this country never was in a more critical situation than at the commencement of the present Session. I have heard it, even up to the last moment, denied that any necessity existed to the degree stated by his Ma jesty's Ministers, and by other Members of this House, but I beg to call their attention to a circumstance which may make them doubt the correctness of that denial ; the necessity was shown by the state of the country—a state proved by this special fact, that when the Session commenced the Roman Catholic people of Ireland, consist ing of 6,000,000 of persons, were in such a state of ir ritation that the word of a single man would have been sufficient to produce a conflagration, and to spread over the country the horrors tof a civil war. I lament ,that this should have been the case, but so it was; and I wonder that those gentlemen who are peculiarly connected with Ireland, and who feel so anxiously about this question, should not have recollected that circumstance. Look at the petitions lying on your table from those who oppose these claims, and see if in the state of society which they describe there is not enough to disgrace a Country like England, which governs a nation in such a in inner as to produce such evil effects,' The facts put forth on both sides prove that thestertebNikietfiVas con vulsed from its foundation. But-to'Preve this, it would"' be enough to advert to thee great political phenomenon-- that new dominion which controuled and divided. ttle diet: vernment, and which protected theTerliettoerstettiat Was .noble to protect iteelf.,-,(Chafree),,e-Thaf. was a pow er which levied a revenu e f rom the County, and it could not be removed but by a measure like the present. Sir, lam not here to approve of the Catholic Association—l censure many of their actions, and more of their words; but it would be idle to attempt to separate the Catholic As- soeiation from the people of Ireland (hear, hear, heat),— it would he idle to pretend to say that the Association • was extrinsic tea the country, when, in fact, it was super iudoced by the state of society which existed there. No coercion could have put down that Aeteezietibh, for no co ercion could be exercised nee': a whole people who had de termined not to 'they. I cannot but observe, th it there is ' one eineuinetariee which is peculiar to the present stete of ;his subject—namely, that up to this moment it has been • said that the Catholic Question, however interesting to a few of the higher classes, was entirely uninteresting to the people of Ireland. It is now clear that the people of Ire land have refuted that assertion, to Which I, for one, never gave credit, and have fully identified themselves with the neett That they have done so, I say, is proved by the :oate of the country. The state of the eo'intry is palpable and notorious ; but it is paid by some, that is not to be .scribed to the Catholic Question. If it be true that the • state of the country is such as has been described, and if due effete be given to the infieenee of Government in pro , - during such a state; and if also it he trite, that Govern ment is ireponsible for the happiness or misery of the go verned ; it :nest be true that we, by enacting and con tinuing the Penal Code, have been almost the curse of Ireland ; anti so long as that portion of the Code shall con tinue to exist, so long will that curse trotain unchanged. But, Sir, on what ground is it, ask, that w e res i s t th e claims of th e Cathelies ? The ground is, that their religion is inetenpatible with loyalty to their Sovereign. Sir, that ground the Leislature of this country has of itself alms doned in the former Acts it has passed relating to this sub ject. Every ore of these Acts has declared that the Ca tholics are loyal subjects; and yet, in the fate of our own declarations we say, that they are not entitled to what they now ask, because we add, " You are not loyal to a Protestant Sovereign," thus giving a pretext for the dis turb owes we effect to deprecate, insulting their religious feelings, and acting contrary to our own words. My lion. Friend, the Member far Oxford—and in alluding to him I wish to speak of him with every respect for hie private con duct and character—has said that We are not reduced to the alternative teniceesion or coercion ; and what is the argement he has need in support of that pos;den ? He h as "maid that an nn't d Adinin's ration, formed un the principle of permanent exclusion, might obtain a strong measure of ceersion ::gins: the ( lathol c.; aad that by encoureging the Protestants of Ireland, and supporting them by the army of England, the Catholics might be kept in awe. I wish, before he bed expressed this opinion, that my Hon Friend had followed the train of reasoning pursued by my Right Hon. Friend last night. I will not impair that reasoning by repeating it ; lett I will ask my Hon. Friend, in the first ;deep, Whether he supposes it possible even for an united Administration, like that of which he has spoken, to ob tain a strong measure of coercion from this House of Commons—and it should be recollected too that the mea sure must be much stronger than any we have yet seen ? and if such measure could be obtained, I ask in what situa tion would Ireland—in what situation would tl.e Adminis tration—then be ? Ile would array the Protestants of Ireland against the Catholics, and would support the former by the army of England ; and this he would do to avoid the necessary evils of a civil war. Whether he is of opinion, that even if he gained such a position he could retain it, I know not, but, in my opinion, he would never be able to preserve his advantage. Whatever power the Protestants;of Ireland niay possess, and whatever may be the skill and repu tation of the British army, I do not believe that five millions could be kept in submission by such means alone. I be lieve the same spirit would operate which has always ope rated. He seems to think civil war is impossible. I refer him to the events of thirty years ago. But I will not push that argument : I will only say, whether he believes it or not, I believe a civil war would be the consequence. If the necessity at present existing is not strong enoegli, I should be glad if he would tell me what degree of neces sity ought to compel the Administration of which be has spoken to adopt measures of concession ? To what ex time would he drive the people? For my part, I avant to guard the country from domestic convulsions—l want to preserve it from that moat terrible evil, the triple curse of war—a civil war, and a civil war of religion.—(Cheers.) In the first piece, we are told that the necessity is not so great, though the state of Ireland refutes the assertion— next, we are told that the laws against the Catholics have not produced the evil, though the nature of things in Ire land folly proves the reverse. It is not, however, the question now e segwhat has brought us into this situation, but,-show we are to get out of it ? I answer, that I, for one, would cast away ail feelings that might prevent me from applying the best remedy to the evil. Nothing 311111 break the unity of my purposes—anothing shall prevent me in my humble degree from doing what I can to ensure the safety and gem ity of this realm. My Hon. Friend has observed that the Duke of Wellington, who has been ac customed to military command, is not quite as alive to the exercise of mouth force. And it is singular to obssrve what he gives as a proof of the truth of his remark. The Duke, who is aceustoreed to military command, in order to avoid civil war, does not, when tL' &sin arrives, have recourse to power and coercion, but to Leeline and conciliatory measures; but my Hon. Friend, who is not used to miii tare command,—(cheers and laughter)—when that crisis arrives, appeals to what he calls his system of moral force —that is, he appeals to the bayonets of the Irish Pro teetants, supported by the bayonets of the British army.— (Loud cheers.) But we are told, that this measure is an actual violation of time Constitution. Sir, l think as highly of the great blessings of the Constitution as any man, but, as it was wisely observed by my flight Hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, in his eloquent speech of last night, " I look in the Revolution of 1688 for the Constitution," but not, in that exclusively or solely ; and the very words of the Bill of Rights recognise and justify that observation, for the Revolution gave us no new rights or liberties, but deserves our gratitude fur re-claiming and re-eFserting what, in the words of the Bill of Rights itself, ate called the ancient and indubitable rights of time people of England.—(Cheers.) But it; instead of taking this more wile, extended, and, I will add, just, view of the Constitution, I were to look fir it in the assertion of po pular rights and in the popular compact made in 1688, and should be content to rest the question on that narrow ground, I ask any man to shrew me, that by the Bill of Rights the Catholics are excluded from the blessings of the Constitution ? The 13:11 of Rights recorded the grievances, and stated the remedy to provide against their recurrence ; and, to protect the Constitution, they secured the Crown to a Protestant, and provided guards for preserving the Protestantism of the Throne. These are the two grand objects of the Bill of Rights. It is not by looking at the Constitution with the lynx eyes of suspicion, to dis cover in every place an approbation of exclusion, that vim will find that which the 13i11 of Rights cells the in diepensible article of the Constitution, namely, that the Eller - dee of the people shall lie guaranteed by the exclusion from time Throne of a Popish King. All else is machinery ; but these two are the indiepensible and perpetual parts of the Constitution. It is true, that the Bill of Rights says that the King must take that declaration, and take those oaths that are there mentioned ; and it refers to the Act of the :30th of Charles the Second. But that is all the stronger in favour of nay argument; for, providing for the safety of the Constitution, .by the exclusion of a Popish King, was in the contemplation of those who drew up the Bill ; and if they thought that exclusion from Parliament was as in dispensible as that there should be a Protestant on the Throne, I ask why they. did not provide for one as well as for die other? it was just as easy, when they provided that if the King became a Papist, or if he should marry a Papist, be should be excluded from the Throne, and the allegiance of his suhjecte should he. dissolved; I.say it was. just 38 easy, amid almost inevitable, for thena to add, that if Catholics were admitted to Parliament, that also should (his solve the allegiance of the eubjertseof the kingdom. But remember, Sir, that this is comment on the Bill of Bights, it is the modern construction of those who oppose these ineeenren; and those who maintain this construction tein also that this measure does dissolve the subjects' alle giance. I will not, for one, enter on that most perilous Of all questions, namely, when the allegiance of subjects is dis solved. I will confine myself to the Bill of Rights, and-take my opinion from that alone. I will not take it from the gloss, from the modern terms, of those who call themselves I.3runswickers, and who tell us our allegiance is dissolved, at the same moment that they talk of themselves as the firmest opponents of a divided allegiaace. I say distiectly, diet no part of the Revolution proceeded on the principle that exclusion was am indispensable part of the Constitution and if such was not its principle, then I know not on what ground it can be contended for. If it is not in the - Bill of Rights, I ask in what other part of the British Constitu tion is that principle to he found ? All the great authorities, from Bacon down to Burke, state that the Constitution is not founded on principles of exclusion. If the: is the case, on what ground is it that this Act of 30 Car. 11. was passed ? I will not enter into the history of that period. It is too well known to most of us. It was the most ca- ' lemitous and dangerous period of our hi.tory, and every friend of his country must wish it blotted from the page of its shoals, unless it be retained as a lesson for future times. I rejoice in the commencement of the labours of this Ses ailife' I cannot express with what delight I listened to my Right Bon. Friend when he developed his plan last night. It was a great day fur this country—it was a great day for Ireland—it was a great day fee the Right lion. Gentle man.—(Loud cheering.)—The speech he delivered was in every respect worthy of the cause it supported, of the prin ciples it contained, and of the healing measures it pro- Pouthied. I rejoice in the Bill, because it is a liberal act, ione liberally—it is a generous act done in the spirit of generosity—it is an act of justice done with the grace of an act of favour. There may be one or two particulars liable to some observation, but upon those I cannot consent to rest ; I look at the main principle of the measure, and there I see the hopes and anticipations of the most sanguine calculator amply verified. A Noble Lord below me (the Marquis of Chandos), early in the evening, de clared, that the securities proposed were good for nothing. Let us recollect that the Spirit of the measure is, that it re lies tin its own essential merits—that it places no doubtful dependence on collateral and artificial device?, but on the main strength of the great principles it contain., honestly applied to extinguish evils. Therefore, to tell me that the se curities in the Bill will be of little value, is only to magnify the merits of a measure which will give full security without torturing ingenuity for the invention of at best questionaNe expedients. But we are told, that the measure leaves the kingdom and the Constitution without protection; but it has been often said, and it ought to be continually repeated, because sincere alarms are prevalent in sonic querturs upon the subject, that the securities now existing, and which will continue to exist after the measure is passed, though not immediately connected with it, are those on which our Protestant Constitution may safely rest. As to security, I find it in the very exertions made to resist the progress, or rather the introduction of this Act; I find it in the con scientious zeal displayed throughout the country to protect our national faith, and out Episcopal Church; I find it in the Nobility of England—in the Gentry and Yeomanry of England, whom I see united heart and hand to resist the slightest encroachment of Catholicism.—l find it in our Clergy, in whom I, for one, place confidence ; and I find it in the excellence of our Establishment. It I could per suade myself with the lion. Member who spoke from un der the gallery, that this measure would lessen the security of our Episcopal Eetablishmeut, instead of being eager to support it I should be among the first to resist it. I think the security of our-Church depends, not on such art-con structed barriers—but on the seundness of its doctrines, the purity of its adherents, and the zeal, devotion, and energy of its sacred functioneries. Above all, it depends upon the confidence of th e people, 1010 find in our Clergy an example of those virtues which the Protestant re- I gion is calculated to cherish, and, more than all, of that vii tue whirl is the source and root of all ode ra— charity. But do I look for securities in this county only ? I look for them especially in Ireland it-elf, in the now United Kingdom 'of Great Britain and Ireland (Hear, hear.)—l look for it in the attachment of seven millions of subjects After a long night of injustice and oppression, they will find themselves restored to their just place in society. They will be rescued by wise laws from the excessive domination of the priesthood, of whom our laws have hitherto made them by turns the tyrants and the slaves. I look for it in the reasonable and proper influence which will now he given to rank, property, the aristocracy, and education in Ireland, and to the ameliorat ing spirit that will hereafter pervade all theses. Still more do I look for security from the great mass of the people, now for the first time open to the moral influence which is agitating this country and every part of Europe. Nor are these securities to be so lightly treated, when we re flect, that, after all, they are the very securities on which the British Constitution rests. It is not founded upon the principle of exclusion—it was not framed for the benefit of one estate only, to the neglect or injury of others, but for the purpose of obtaining the combined force of the aggregate population ; and upon that combination of in terests mainly, the strength, spirit, essence, and perpetuity of the Copstitution depend. I confess that lain sanguine as to the results of this proposition, and I trust that my antici • pations will riot be disappointed. I trust that the mea sure will he admitted into this House with that disposition which has been abeady testified, and then I know how it will be received in the country. I hope and believe it will he received in 'relate! in the same spirit in which it has been proposed by Government. If I had any influence with that fine people, I should conjure them to reflect what the boon is—how long it has been in vain solicited, and in how generous, how noble a spirit this magnificent wink of conciliation has been at length achieved. I hope and believe, that the day when this fin shell obtain the Royal assent will be for ever remembered in Ireland—that. it will be remembered in ifeir solemn meetings, and in their hours of conviviality, not as the signal of disunion and discoid, but as the pledge and rallying-point of tranquillity and obedience on the one hand, and of kindness and pro tection on the other.—(Much cheering.) Mr. V. STUART commenced by referring to opinions on this subject which had already been stated by him ; and he then divided the speech of the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department into three principal branches. The first related to the greet measure itself ; the second to the accompanying securities; and the third, to a subject, in his opinion, totally foreign to the rest. With regard to the measure of concession, it wile made so wisely, so largely, and so liberally, that he could not withhold his most cor dial support to it. To the securities also no Catholic c-mid object, and no reasonable Protestant ought to ob ject. The third branch haul no direct connection with the question before the House; he had strong opinions upon it, and when the Bill was brought forward, he should enter his pi otest against it. He begged Nave, however, to as sure the House, that he should offer no factious opposition, and that nothing on earth should induce him to take any bop which would by possibility endanger the Bill.— (Hear.)—After the occurrences of last year, and after the special declaration of Ministcra that they could no longer conduct the Government of the country unless the Catholic Question were settled, it would have been unnecessary to defend the course they had pursued, had it not been so un• warrantably attacked by Hon. Gentlemen whose ancient prejudices still induce them to oppose concession. Did they expect that the system which depended only upon the support c.f bru e force and bloodshed could be perpetuated ? Did they iroogine that the prejudices of England were for ever to be arrayed against the passions of Ireland ? From the conflict these consequences only could follow—aversion most hitter, antipathy most deep-rooted and !oared most deadly ; England would strive to mamtein her supetiority, and Ireland yearn to throw off her yoke In the mean time, the aristocracy of Ireland would find their country doomed to poverty, and their remainhig pro perty exposed to rapine and vi o l ence . Th e condition of the island and its inhabitants in such an alternative might be described in the language of a celebrated author, when he said, "I set my foot on the boundary, and I said Free. dam is tint here ; I saw naked hills, and weedy rat!ows ; I saw still more infallible signs—for I beheld a downcast visage, and a degraded form, indicating loathsome misery and di spetate poverty ; I sew cities crowded with pestilen tial inhabitants ; I saw the contumely of wan, the ferocious vindictiveness of popular rage, and I pronounced—this people is not free." He thanked God that the time had arrived when all parties begat to be sensible of their own interests, and when the Irish Catholics would profit by the discovery. He did not think there was any reason to be ashamed of borrowing an argument from individual inte rests, when those interests are deeply identified with the welfare of the nation. What, then, was the situatl'in of the landed proprietors of Ireland? They were sur rounded by a Catholic population ; and, if something were not done, and done q u i c kl y , th ey wou ld h ave t o depend upon an anti•national force, directed by an English Anti- Catholic Government, perpetuating the prevailing distinctioo between the Protestant land-owners and the Ca tholic land occupiers of Ireland. Might not the Aristo cracy of Ireland, favourable to the Claims, appeal to their Anti-Catholic opponents, and ask whether they would be content to hold. their property by such a tenure ? To fancy that such a stele of things as now existed could con tiue (proceeded, the Hon. Member) is to lull ourselves into n't dream of security, from which we should only wake, to see the consummation of our folly in the irretrievable ruin 'bf the empire. —(hear, hear.) Policy is scarcely less in terested in this change than humanity ; end if proof were wanted of the truth of this position, we have only to look at lime countries in which the exclusive system is esta blished. Greece has been driven to desperation by the Turkish ascendancy, and in America, Virginia, and Ken- , nucky, where the free blacks form one-sixth of the population, we all know the consequenc es of political ex elusion. The distinctions of green or orange, of white or blank, can signify 'kinking; the principle of exclusion is the same, and producers the same consequences ; wherever it is acted upon, it is destructive of priente happiness and national prosperity. What is said by the poet of charity in general, is especially applicable to it in a political sense— " It droppeth like the gentle dew from heaven," &c. The question is simply this: shall we use this power to the weakness of the State, or by giving the Catholics a share in the blessings of the Constitution, shall we add to our strength, and multiply our resources? Raving tried the experiment of exclusion fur several hundred years, and having notoriously experienced its failure, may it not be as well, in accordance with the proposition of Ministers, to adopt the centrary system, and to ascertain whether it will not produce a contrary effect? But we are told that our experience is to go for nought—that because our glorious Constitution of 1683 excludes Roman Catholics that there fore they are to remain excluded. What, after all, consti tutes the security of the Church ? Does it consist of Acts of Parliament, of public documents, of the to-Is of 1685 ? No : it is derived from a population enthusiastically at. tached to the doctrines and tenets of the Church of Eng land ; this is the only charter of the Established. Church. Then bow, I should be g'ad to know, unless the admission of Roman Catholics to civil power is to have the miracu lous effect of instantly converting the Protestants to Catho licity, can that event endanger the stability of the Church ? The Church is safe as long, and no longer, than while the majority of the peeple are followers and supporters of it. Let the Protestants once change to Catholicity, to Presby terianism, or tp Mahometaniein, and infallibly, despite the Constitution of 1688, the Pope will supplant the Arch bishop of Canterbury, or Synods or Mosques will supplant t! e Church. Then what, after all, is there in the pro position which is to frighten Honourable Members from their propriety as to induce them to believe that, by attempting to regulate this subject, on the recom mendation of Ministers, we shall shake the well-founded confidence now existing in the stability of the Church? Our course is clear—let us not hesitate to pursue it. Let us pass a law which will make the whole na : time, Catholic as well as Protestant, rally as oce man round the Sovereign. Let us support the grand prin ciple of civil and religious liberty. Once acted upon, that principle will tranquillize Ireland : place Great Britain upon a firmer footing than she has ever yet held, even in 1 times of her brightest glory, and unite the inhabitants of time whole Empire in peace, amity, and concord. With these views, and with this feding, I need hardly state with i whet eagerness I shell a fford my humble support to th e measure about to be introduced ; nor can I sit down with , out off:ming a just tribute to those Ministers, who, regard hems of personal considerations, have had the magnanimity to sacrifice their bonds to party to secure the internal pro sperity of the nation. • Mr. DICKINSON was heard very indistinctly, as he spoke from under time Gallery. He thought that there was no danger of a new rebellion in Ireland, because in 1819 the Priests found that they lost their dues, and although they might allow of a fluster for the sake of answering their own views, their interest, as fir as money was con cerned, would prevent them front promoting open hostility to the Government. He was by no means satisfied with the disfranchisement of the forty-shilling freeholders, as it was an net of injustice to them, for the sake of admitting to power such men as Mr. O'Connell. Neither was he of opinion that the Catholics would be satisfied with this measure alone; they required much more, and their peti tions chewed that they aimed at the abolition of tithes, the destruetioo of vestries, and the repeal of the Commutation Act. Ile apprehended likewise that the Association could not be put down by any Bill that might be passed to sup ra press it. He did not, bewever, mean to join any cry against the change, anti if the Bill were passer(, which seemed probable—(cheers :from all sides)—we understood him to sly, that he was ready to acquiesce in it. Mr. Liddell, Lord Nugent, and Mt. Brougham, rose at the same time. The last was loudly called for, but the Hon. MEMBER for Northumberland proceeded. Ile had listened with admiration to the speech of the Right Hon. Secretary, and he was ready to give the measure, in all respects, excepting perhaps one, his warmest support. If he approved of the alteration of the law, ;ie still more ap proved of time manner in which the Hon. and Gallant General (Sir G. Murray), had replied yesterday to the Speech of the New Member for time University of Ox ford ; that Gallant Officer had reserved the motto, cedunt arma toew ; the Honourable Academician, at least wore the toga only as a cloak fur intolerance, while the Gallant General had only wielded the arms of Chris tian charity, peace, and conciliation.—(Hear, hear.) — The Hon. Member then complained of the manner in which the oppoeition to concession hail been conducted, and especially of the attempt to overwhelm the expres sion of opinion by petitions; he also referred to the in flenanatory placards exhibited, and to the processions in some par's of the country, where the effigies of the Pope and " bloody Mary" were exhibited with a couple of fag gots between them. He doubted if these representations had not had an undue influence on the minds of the people, and whether they had not signed the petitions tinder mis taken impressions. The history of time cennection of this country with her American colonies chewed the preci pitousprogress of oppression, and he quoted the words of Lord Chatham upon that subject as must applicable to the present times and to the situation of Ireland. The na tion would now await with trembling hope the fiat of Parliament; the foundation-stone had been laid, and ere lone the temple of concord would rise in all its majestic and beautiful proportions. Mr. BROUGHAM and another Member rose together, but the letter gave way. I can assure the Hon. Member that I shall not stand many minutes between hits and the House. Ido not rise to debate the question, or to offer any answer to the thousand times refuted argumenteagainst concessions, but principally to express my entire and un qualified approbation of the measure, as a whole, pro pounded by Ministers. It goes the full length that any reasonable man ever did, or ever can command ; it does equal justice to his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects—it puts an end to all religious distinetiens—it exterminates all civil disqualifications, on account of religious belief. It is simple and efficacious, clogged with no exceptions, unless such as even the most zealous of the Catholics themselves must admit to he of necessity parcel of the measure. In one word, it appears to me as it did when I fist heard it proposed, so upon subsequent reflection my opinion is cor firmed, as far as any measure of the Legislature can do so, to proclaim through the King's dominions, that religious discord shall be no more. I now come to the declaration which this Bill will require front Roman Catholics who take office, or become Members of this House, and from Roman Catholic Peers sitting in the other House of Par liament. I think this declaration perfectly conshtent with the duties of per-eons taking office ; but I do not think it should be required from Members of Par liament. As far as it is borrowed frotn a similar declaration in the Act of last Session fur repealing the Test and Corporation Acts, I see no objection to it ; but though it is applicable to that case, it does not appear to me that it can be required with perfect con sistency and propriety from a Member of Parliament. That, and also the Declaration to be taken by Privy Coun cillors, require, it seems to me, further consideration—in thenegative part, I mean. Possibly, on further reflection, I may alter, my opinion ; but, on 'leering them read last night, I thought of them as I have now stated. I trust they will have the best attention in the Committee. Pass ing over the rest of the measure, I come to the second Bill, in.which it is proposed to unite with time great measure of relief one of those expedients which, in 182.5, were offered at that time of negecimtion as one of the securities. I al lude to the disfranchisement of the forty-slmilling free bidders. I was then opposed to any measure of this de scription; end I can well conceive that, if it were not united with the larger measure, as it is a fir nu re sweep ing measure of disfranchisement than that of 1825, it would be a matter of serious objection. I will not disguise my opinion, that for myself it would in that case be a matter of all but invincible reluctance. Even if it had not been altered, my opinion of the lesser measure of 1825 as I was one of those who opposed it—might well and in. rrfect consistency have been charged on me as a reason for not forming a favonreble opinion of this measure ; 'hut I look to the whole of these measures. (Cheers.) If the (po tion is put to me, why do Ton vote for the disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholder*? I say, if this question is put to the separately, singly, or apart, it ought to be weighed on its own grounds, and on its own grounds it should be an swered ; and then my answer is, No. But that is not the question in the present case. Here it is put in connection : with a far more difficult and complex question; and if it ie so put to me, and I am practically required to vote upon the subleel, I then ask, shall I take on myself the re sponsibility—shell I take on myself any shire of responsi bility—shall I take on myself, dare I tike on myself, even the smallest share of the tremendous responsibility of saying to Ireland, " Your last chance of peace, of tranquil lity, and of safety, is gone ; for these two measures are in separably connected together, and I will vote against one - o )—Fro that responsibility, even frfontibienn; ?s'i'Tiall(C es share of m it, I freely confess I do shrink.— (Great cheering.)--I am not ashamed to confess it— (Continued cheering) —for it is a responsibility which Wright well appal the stoutest heart, and shake the soundest judgment.—(Cheere.)—l do, therefore, as the price, as t he all but must extravagant price, of this inestimable good, consent to give it: not only is it inestimable fir the bl e ssings it will produce, but it has always been of the highest expediencyand strictest justice, and has now be come of overwhehning necessity. That price I, for one, 'my I am willing to The Hon. and Leimned Gentle man sat down amidst the general cheering of the House. Mr. F. CLINTON owned that his Majesty's Ministers kul submitted to a great sacrifice in order to attain their object of introducing these measures of concession, front which they seemed sn confidently to anticipate the tran quillity of Ireland. The first question to be considered era s, were these measures necess try to produce this effect ? Would they establish tranquillity, allay religious animosi ties, put an end to the contention between the Protestant , and Catholic Associations ; or were they, on the contrary, lik e ly to produce any other effect than merely to change the subjects of dispute, entail on th e country strugg l es st ill I more fierce and violent titan those in which it is now en gaged.—(Hear, hear.) I n est i mat i ng t h e c h aracter o f igree these measures which are said to lead to tranquillity, the House could not fail :o be struck in the outset by the man ner in which they had been brought forward by his i c and by th e c i rcumstances un d er w hi c h the concessionsinte isrs, were to b e . ma d e . Th ey were b roug ht f or ward as measures of necess i ty; t h ey were re presented, not as an act of grace , b ut as a measure f orce d reluctantly from his Majesty's Ministers by the course of even ts.--(Cheers.) He w as f ar f rom i mput i ng t o hi s Majesty's Government th at t h ey h a d acte d un d er f ear , i n tY'e 1%l any disgraceful or dishonourable sense of the word ; but it was not to be denied that the measures had been rendered necessary by the hold and menacing attitude of the Catho ' lic Association.—(Cheers.) That attitude, indeed was FO formidable, that many of his Majesty's Ministers had ' avowed that though they still retained their former opinions, Ithey thought those concessions were inevitable, and should be made from views of prudence, to secure more firmly the Protestant establishment. With their eyes still open to all the evils—the inevitable consequence of the conces sions they were compelled to yield, even at the risk of throwing the country into alarm and confusion—his Ma- I jesty's Ministers persevered with their measures. The Right lion. Member for the county of Inverness had I , st night congratulated that House and the country on the ex cellent prospects before them, and had described the mea sures as the most auspicious ever introduced into Parlie . ment. Now he (Mr. F. Clinton) could conceive no mea sures to be commenced tinder less happy auepices. They were, in fact, measures extorted by necessity horn a re luctint Government. What promise did they afford that they would prove so essential to the future tranquillity of Ireland ? Did it augur well for the peace of Ireland when they saw his Majesty's Government yielding their prin ciples and their long-cherished opinions for the purpo-e cf • purchasing n temporary respite front the power of the Ca tholic Association?—(Cheers.)—He would say that the manner in which these measures had been brought forward afforded a very indifferent promise fine the future peace of Ire'rul ; but rather held out an invitation to etruggle for ulterior objects—(Cheers)—if there were ulterior objects contemplated by the Catholics—as he, for one, could not bring himself to believe there were not.—(Cheers.)-- Ample and unconditional as the measures of conces sion might he, they would not satisfy all the de sires of the Catholics. They would not satisfy that important and powerful part of the Catholie body who exercised an unbounded influence over the rest—he meant the Catholic Clergy.—(Louri cheers.) --Nothing would satisfy them but the estahliehzuent of their own Church as the National Church.—(Cheers.) — That must be their ultimate object, anxious as they were to advance their temporal interests as well as their spiri tual power. It was nut in human nature that they should have no wishes or interests for themselves. While they exercised a tremendous power over the people, it curd not he expected they would forego all hopes of exalting them selves, and cheerfully submit to exclusion from the wealth and honours of the Church, leaving them undisturbed in the possession of a Clergy whom they regarded as here tical.—(Cheers.)---If the Catholic Priests were disposed to exert that iefluence now, wits that disposition likely to be diminished by yielding to them ? Were they less likely to show their power then than now, as they did through the Catholic Association which they governed and di rected ? What possible securities could be had, that would conerel the Catholic Priesthood to forbear from exerting their power? We had none and could have none. Was Parliament to rely on the moderation and temperance of the Catholic Clergy ? Surely that was not a security to serve as a foundation upon which to build well-grounded hopes of future tranquillity by allaying religious animosi ties, blending together hostile sentiments, and producing that friendly union which the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) sought by these measures to establish. The Right lion. Member fur the county of Inverness had congratu lated the House and country also, that these measures were brought forward without any Parliamentary artificial securities ; and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brougham) had certainly that evening admitted that the securities were little better than nominal. He was glad to have the authority of both the Hon. Gentlemen to sanction the opinion he had formed, when he heard the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel), namely that this pl in of safety contained no adequate security for the protection of the Established Church—that Church which his Majesty, in his gracious Speech, bad recom mended to their especial care and protection, and which we were enjoined, above all things, to uphold, and enter into no measure in which the preservation of the Protestant Establishment- was not the first and principal object— (Cheers.)—The offices of Lord Chancellor in England and Ireland, and Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, were not to he filled by Catholics ; hut the office of First Lord (if the Treasury might •he held by a Catholic—(Cheers), — and all the rest of the Cabinet might be Catholics.-- (Cheers). The Lord Chancellor had the disposal of the Crown patronage as to livings of the smallest income on the King's books. That office was not to be given to a ; that patronage was not to fall into the hands of the Catholics; but the First Lord of the Treasury, who recommended to the Crown the persons to fill the highest stations in the Church—the Bishops of the realm— might be a Catholic.—(Cheers.)--There was a provision, he admitted, made by the Right Hon. Gentleman, which certainly stated, that if any officer, other than the Lord Chancellor or the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, should haven to he a Catholic, his patronage should he transferred to a Commission. He wished that this pro vision should be distinctly understood, for he owned that he did not perfectly know whether it memt to include the whole patronage necessarily belonging to the office. For example, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster had the right of presentation to the living in his jurisdiction, as being necessarily attached to the office. Was it meant that the First Lord of the Treasury, whose duty it was to recommend to the Crown the appointment of the Bishops, should, of a Catholic, not himself appoint a clergyman? This exception of the patronage would, however, not pre vent the First Lord of the Treasury from recommending whom he. pleased to the Crown, though it might prevent him, or the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, from using the patronage belonging to his office. He would be extremely happy to hear this provision explained, as at present he was not satisfied with respect to it. As to the securities, or exceutions he would rather call them, introduced by this Bill, he thought they were quite suffi cient as a badge or mark to distinguish the Catholics as an inferior sect not worthy of hying completely trusted, while the security itself was perfectly insufficient for any practical and efficacious purpose. ( Hear, heart.) If the Bill were passed with these restrictions and exceptions in corporate(' with it, they would lee admissions of the exi4t ence of ulterior dangers. (Cheers.) lie repeated they were admissions that the Catholics had still an object behind, which they wished to obtain, and which they inevitably would obtain, if Parliament gave them sufficient power. ([fear.)—Else why, he asked, when Parliament granted all they desired, as it was said, were they not deemed worthy to he trusted without taking securities from them, and imposing exceptions and restrictions, whi c h s l iowed that Parliament could not yet confide in them? lie was happy to be confirmed in that view of the case by the Right lion Gentleman, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, who had admitted that the Catholics had ulterior objects. That Right Hon. Gentleman had gated most emphatically thet he had not changed his for mer opinions, but that he deemed it necessary to alter his mus e ; He had also distinctly admitted that the Catholics had ulterior objects, which they must wish and would attempt to accomplish. In the very able speech which the Right lion. Gentleman had delivered lest night, he had put it in this way :--" Let us grant these concessions ; let the struggle come ; for I still think a struggle will come for ulterior objects."—(Cries of " No, no !")---Ife thought the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated so in sub stance, but not, perhaps, in those very words.—(More cries of " No, no !")—The Right Hun. Gentleman had certainly reasoned in this way :—" If we are to have an other contest—(cheers), —let us first grant these conces sions, that we may come to that contest with additional strength."—(Cheers.)—He believed he had fairly stated the Right lion. Gentleman's argument. He honestly eon -ICseed that he did not quite understand this mode of rea soning. It did not seem to lihn the most wise and expe dient course, when a contest wait impending, to put addi tional power into the hands of those who were to struggle with us.—(Cheers.) —ln the course of these discussions, a great deal had been said as to the principles of the Revolu tion of 168 S, and it was contended by some lion. Gentle men, that these measures would not break in upon that Settlement. In the view he took, he could not regard the Revolution in the, same light as those lion. Gentlemen. He (lid regard it, as many (if his friends did also, us coneti oand completing the British Constitution. He looked g it as the Act which perfected and put the finishing tuP‘ stroke ti: to that admirable Constitution which had been pre paring lin- ages. There was no pthvision, it was said in the Bill of Rights, to exclude Catholics from Parliament. When he looked at what was passing, and tile opinion of our ancestors, it was impossible not to see that they did intend that Parliament and the councils of the King should he of a character exclusively Protestant. The Ca tholics had been excluded from Parliament before that time, but the great work was perfected at the Revolution, by excluding Catholics from the throne. But his Majes ty's Ministers, while they retained their opinions, said that the present danger was so urgent, that, at all events and hazerds, they were resolved to purchase a little present ease.—(Hear, hear, hear.) —They could not, forsooth, pass m e n t Theyfr(imsaid, in effect, Parlia ment a Bill to suppress the Catholic Association—they could not obtain the consent of Parliament, they said,tin lese they could art Emancipation. t , We will make a compromise ; we will g r a nt concessions, and at the same time call on those who oppose ase t o pars a agr them to anagree to the suppression of the Association." He believed he had stated fairly, and in a few words, the folie 'dation of what the Right Ekon. Gentleman had stated in the early part of the Session. The question was, whether, in making this exchange or compromise, the objects each side were of equal value ? Did the people of Englatel gain an equ►valent f.r what they lost ? In his view of the cage—and when it was confirmed by the Right Hon. Gen i i tlen►an, that view must he correct—these measures wow" , break in on the settlement mule at the Revolution of 1688. The principles of that glorious event were not to be bar' tered away for any temporary purpose or expedient; but now it was proposed to abandon them, and in exchange hie Majesty's Ministers gave Parliament a Bill for the suppres sion of the Catholic Association ; and this was done t make a short and precarious truce with the Catholics. 06 agreed that the laws affecting the Catholics should be dell considered, but time should be given to the people to eit' press their opinions on these measures, which were the most important submitted to Parliament since the nett*" sion of the House of Hanover to tine Throne of these Realms. Mr. NORTIL—The Hon. Gentleman who has just resumed Isis seat, I think myself bound to say has, by bill ap.ueeable eloquence, by his sound reasoning, and by has evident sincerity, entitled himself to the attention of the House. He is of opinion that the measures now proposed by his Majesty's Government world net restore tranquil lity to Ireland. I have listened with great attention to the arguments he used to establish that proposition. Bub aliove all, 1 waited with great anxiety for the propold which the lion. Gentleman would make by way of sub stitution for the measures of his Majesty's Government ; I was deeply anxious as a Member of this House; and s' a native of Ireland, for that complete will satisfactory mer sure which he, I thought, was going to bring forward, ie • order to put to shame the imperfect measures proposed 11 his Mejesty's Government, and thus finally to establish the tranquillity of Ireland. But the speech of the Hon. Gen* tleman concluded, and a " lame and impotent condo sion" it was ; for I was entirely disappointed.—(Laugh' ter and cheers.)—The Hon. Gentleman began by stating, that these measurer were utterly insufficient for their par' pose, as they did not contain any complete and a d e quate securities to prevent the Catholic.' from seeking their e l ' terior oloects, which I understand to mean that they in tend to assail arel overthrow the Church Estahliahmente (Hear, hear.)—The Hon. Gentleman, I hope, will alio/ the to say, that he did not put his at gument with perfect fairness and justice. The question is not whether We have obtained new securities by the new measures; but rather whether we have parted with any securities 11 leaving the situation in which we found ourselves.—(Hesr° bear.)—l will not yield to that Hon. Gent., or any Mem ber of this House, in zeal fir the Established Church , and, least of all, for that part of it which is established in Ireland. lam attached to it by the warmest feelings et my nature—by a strong and early predilection—by the ties of close friendship and gratitude—and I may add of affection also—and if I thought that in consenting to these measures, we should part with any real - security to the Established Church, I would sooner part with my right hand than give them my support.—(Cheers.)—But can I believe that it is any set urity to the Established Church , to he held out to the great body of the people as the hotel cause of their humiliation and degradation ?—(Cheers.)--• Can I believe that it is for the advantage of the Established Church to be looked neon as the cold, dark, (billing ob.' stacle interposed between the people and the beams et 'toyd favour—which crosses their path in every roa d to interest and honour, and establi•hes au insuperable barrier between different classes, and prevents them from joining hand in hand end heart with heart, to enjoy the common blessings, and partake the common prosperity of their country?—(Cheers.)—lt does give a security to the Esta blished Church when we throw down these barriers and obstacles, awl when that discontent shall be removed of that strongest and most powerful mass of the people, non marshalled against the Established Church, which they consider the object of their hatred, hostility, and envy. We do give a security to the Established Church, , making its existence congenial with those feelings which make an essential past of our nature, and inspire us with sentiments of kindness and benevol e nce. I w i s h the Honourable Gentleman, and the Honourable Member for the University of Oxford, and others who feel a strong regard for the Established Church, and that clergy, Wh o not only teach and support our religion, hut practise its precepts, to consider whether the present state of Ireland conduces to those religious feelings which they profeSe themselves anxious to maintain? The present state of Ire land, I can say from my own actual observation, conduce to very different feelings and principles. It plucks out the I heart of religion,:which is charity—(Cheers)—it seta mar against man, and puts a eanker into every heart; and be long continued, it will, I fear, put a dagger into evel:' hand.—(Cheers.)—Good God ! i s it for th e i n terests_ j r° religion, and of th a t Ch urc h w hi c h p ro f esses to b e unitef in its spirit and feeling with religion, that men of !sign rank among the Clergy, should descend from their pulpits, and mixing with the multitud e , f am ili ar i se t h e i r m inds with the expectation of the horrors of a civil war.-- (Cheers.)—Are these the tenets which the Hon. Member for Oxford would teach the Clergy of that Church ? And are these the principles they will continue to preach, in order to produce that tranquillity which they profess them' selves so anxious to establish, and so dissatisfied with these measures, because they will not effect it ? I may be el lowed, I trust, as a native of that land, and after Burster ing the conduct of its people for a series of years, to saY , without any feeling of prejudice, and with no feelings, I• believe, of partiality, and certain I am—certain that, ° any partiality does belong to my feelings and affections, it is for my Prutestent countrymen rather than for my W I ; man Catholic countrymen, to tell the Hon. Gentleman tht it is not possible, if the situation o f I re l a nd re m a i n s sue' as it has been for the last twenty years, that it can be 00 ; patible with the tranquillity of the people ; and I will tel; the Hon. Gentleman further, that I b e lieve firmly, that if any people on the face of the globe were in the same situation, they would be as much dissatisfied as the Irish themselves. Let not the Han. Gentlemen imagin e that there is any thing, as it was said by the eloquent and Gallant General last 'tight, with so much truth and feel ing, in the character of the people or climate of Ireland , that makes tumult and disturbance essential to their lives. It is in the law of the land, in the exclusive system, in the idolised ascendancy, which has so many impious and suPe r j stitious woushippere—(lou.l cheers)—that we must- sec' the causes of the evils that afflict Ireland. In that odious ascendancy we may trace the history of these discontents which produced the agitation of Ireland,—(cheers.) --- This ascendancy being about to cease, I do not hesitate to . Say that we have arrived at a period when the Constituti on of 1658 will be broken in upon; but I will not say wh at I think may be in the Hon. Gentleman's thoughts as to when the ascendancy of the eighteenth century may be broken in upon. Let me offer a few words of consolatl n° to the Hon. Gentleman as to the result of this question. Sir, I will ask any Irish gentleman, where Protestant ascendancy, about which they talk so much, has been to be found for the last 15 years? Let them ask the merchan t whether it is to be found o n th e Ex c ha n ge—l e t them as' else lawyer whether it is to he fotrud in the Four Courts--- let them ask the country gentleman- whether it is to be found on the hustings? I answer for them—no , " • (Hear, hear.)—.The Protestant Ascendancy, which those. Protestant gentlemen worship so devoutly, is in fact a vi sionary b e ing—without substance—impalpable—and 0 ' no account.—(Hear, hear, beer.)—lt is like the ghost of one lung since in the grave; or if it does exist, it exist, only to distract the judgment, to deceive "the heart, and to astound the imagination.—(Cries of Hear,. bear.)—But this is not all : along with it the Baffl e gentlemen are equally alarmed, because they believe that is concurring in this measure they would be conferring n - gift ; but I will tell them that the gift is as visionary astbe Pretestant Ascendancy fur which they fear so much , "' )-Whlit, say they, are we now to be called n 14)" to confer honoura and liberty on the Catholic's, and at this, crisis, when the Aliaisters have- been subdued by intimidac thin and threats ? But though these gentlemen talk 0 ' giving power to tho Catholics, I will tell thenythat it is ilot in their power to make that gift; the Catholic's of Irelan d possess a power beyond theirse--(cheers)-a-a power inder . pendently of theirs—a power that, though, we have -00v called it into existence, we may at least hope, - with, proper, , care, to regulate. (Cheer.) In the course of the debate on thin question, there have been a good many allusions to what him been called brute force, and military power. - Sir° I might follow up this allusion by telling the Hon. Gentle' man who adopted it, that the question is, whether the/ were to extinguish the brute but energetic power of the Catholic multitude of Ireland, Or whether they were". enlist it, with all its strength and all its magnitudeainto the service of the State? I might tell him, that the question is whether that force is to be turned through despair to oil' lawful purposes. or whether it was to be made - to contra - . hate to the prosperity and happiness of the whole entenirr!. (Cheering. )—The I ion. Gent. who had spoken that evenfrig against the measure (Mr. Fynes Clinton), has adverted to the Bill which the Legislature has just passed, for - th e , purpose of putting down the Catholic' Association. No*. Sir, I must beg leave to tell that Hon. Gentleman tha t • theme was no part of his speech which did not manifest the: molt entire ignorance of the actual condition of Ireland. (Hear, hear, - and la ughter. )—and above all did "lie dliplaY„ ignorance when he spoke of the measure 'ettthe paid for the putting down 'of the CithbliC AssoCititiOn• , Does that lion. Gentleman think in his lit : Miran:C - 64i die, Catholic Association and agitation are' tltisan4; and he used synonimouely.—(Hear, hear.)—lkiren'ielf•thrl, Hon. Gentleman this, the doors of the Catholic Aetioobv:e ti-ii may be shut up—its orators, from 'the best to thrisn't°. 1