The Sun. — London, England, 1860-06-08 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING,' JUNE 8, 1860. those who were in the army and navy, and for those who were incapacitated from pauperism or crime, that there were 6,000,000 of men to whom parliament had not con ceded the right of suffrage. Now, the bill of the noble lord proposed to make a slight advance—it reposed to open the door to, it might be, 300,000, and o:'' a very ex treme calculation 400,000, throughout the United King dom. Ho believed it would be 300,000, -nd believed it would not be 400,000. Well, if it were 3 r eOOO it was only i opening the door so far, that 1 in 20 of those now excluded ' would be allowed to come in. Did they think that any body could believe that the terror and alarm they had ex pressed were well founded ? It was utterly impossible. He did not believe that any man in the house or out of it who was told that 1 in 20 of these persons was admitted to vote could honestly say that that was a measure perilous to the country or to the constitution in any sense. He thought he might take that to be almost agreed on. There were some things which had been asserted, and he wished to allude to one or two of them. It had been asserted during this discussion, over and over again, that the admissionof this number, and therefore, he might almost say of any number of men over the 1,000,000 was to give up the representation of the country and the power of Parliament to classes altogether unworthy of it ; and if he might adopt the language of the right hon. gentleman the member for Hertfordshire, which he employed in one of the most eloquent and elaborate speeches ever heard in that house—a speech of which every word had been considered over and over, and therefore, it was not delivered off-hand in the heat of debate—in that speech it was asserted that to open the door to 1 in 20 it was to hand over the Parliamentary government and power of the United Kingdom to what he designated as poverty and pas sion. He could not allow himself to speak of that phrase of the right hon. gentleman in language which constantly came to his lips when he spoke of it. But the noble lord the mem leer for the city the other night quoted from an article in a periodical which was assumed to represent hon. gentlemen opposite. He was rather surprised to find the-right hon. gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire appeared to take some offence at it, for he (Mr. Bright) believed that the noble lord honestly thought that it was most friendly and most complimentary to him. Such he (Mr. Bright) understood to be the tenor of the observation. It was said —he knew not with what truth—that that article was written by the noble lord opposite (Lord R. Cecil). He be lieved the authorship ... was first indicated by the tone of the noble lord with regard to the general policy of the right hon. gentleman. In that article he understood the author to say this, that the course of policy they were now using—that the result of such a measure as this would leave the Government of the country the blessed choice between debauchery and crime. He i eferred to the public houses. Now as the publichouses at this moment were 10 per cent. of the whole number of houses, seeing that as they were all now admitted to the franchise if this bill passed, and half as many electors as now were admitted, it was clear that the proportion of publichouses would be reduced from 10 per cent. to 5 per cent. Now he would ask the house to consider those three statements—the one made by the right hon. member for Hertfordshire (Sir E. Lytton) another assumed to be made by the noble lord, and the statement of the right hon. gentlemad, that there, was danger that persons admitted to the franchise would combine and conspire against all the institutions of the country. Now he would ask, what did that argument lead them to. Why, it led them to this, that six-sevenths—that six millions of seven—of the grown men of the United Kingdom are suffer ing and passionate, according to the arguments of the right hon. baronet the member for Hertfordshire. They are sunk in debauchery and crime—that was the argument of the Quarterly Reviev ; and that they are ready to combine against all the existing institutions of the country, and against all the classes above them, was the prime and sole argument of the long speech of the right hon. gentleman the leader of gentlemen opposite. Well, if that were the case, he (Mr. Bright) was free to confess that he should despair of the future of this coun try ; but he would undertake to show that house that the tes timony was not worth the slightest credit. He would under take to say that he knew a great deal more of the working classes, and especially of those in the north of England, to whom this bill would more especially refer, than the right hon. baronet the member for Hertfordshire, the right hon. gentleman the member for Bnckinghamshire, or the author of the article in the Quarterly Review. Excepting the many sessions in which he had the honour—it might be honour—but certainly the ill fortune to spend in that house, he had for thirty years at least been in daily communication with those classes—he had lived amongst them ; many of them were his play mates when he was a boy ; he had super intended their labour, and had paid their wages. He had had as great an opportunity as any man in that house of knowing what were the opinions and wishes with regard to those great political questions which that house had to discuss. (Hear, hear.) At that moment they had a season which was not very favourable. They had very cold weather for the month of June, the rain fell incessantly, and if that inclemency continued throughout the month, the cycle of good harvests would be at an end, and they would come to the time of two or three bad harvests. Let them further conceive, not a war—hon. gentlemen opposite always seemed trading in war—he supposed some political party policy was to be carried out in the fear of war. It ewes not so much war on the Continent that they had to fear as insurrection and reyolution, and insurrection and revolution abroad lighted up the fire of great excitement in England—(hear)--and it could not be avoided as long as men were men, and had the sympathies of men. Why, there was the noble lord (Lord Elcho) who sometimes sat below him—he (Mr. Bright) did not know where he then sat—he supposed he was with the volunteers. (Laughter.) What did the noble lord say, addressing those gentlemen who were to defend the country against an imaginary foe. He talked about the lion-hearted Garibaldi ; and he said, "he goes to snap the chains which bind the Sicilians." He (Mr. Bright) did not object to the phraseology; but when they found a man who had never said a syllable about giving a vote to one of his countrymen, expressing this enthusiasm for the achievements of e Garibaldi and the liberation of Sicily, what must be the effect of those events abroad upon the great mass of their countrymen, who were supposed not to be under so much mental control as the noble lord or other members of that house ? He (Mr. Bright) said then that the time might come when their rashness would give way to terror, and the accusations they had brought against the working classes might be thought un safe, and something like flattery might take their place. Now, he did not say that would come in the least. Where ever there had been a public meeting held since this moderate proposition was brought into the house— meetings of which they were quite ignorant, if they only read the Times—(loud laughter)—they would find that there had been expressed at those meetings a great feeling of satisfaction and a strong wish that Parlia ment should pass the bill during the present session. Would hon. gentlemen opposite refuse their sanction to a measure in which there was nothing perillous, but every thing moderate and constitutional. If hon. gentlemen oppo site were disposed to refuse this bill, they did not refuse it in a manly way. If the bill were refused the people of this country who were most affected by its provision, would say that they had been treeted with distrust, and that some hon. members had used language towards them as if they had acted in a maener to ho deplored rather • than applauded. The right hon. baronet the member for Hertfordshire, in one of his works pub]. shed some time ago, said, " Who knows the greatness of the generosity of the people of Eng land ?" and he did that which he (Mr. Bright) would not do, he excluded from that phrase the nobility,who were the Government of the country. He (Mr. Bright) said that the people were generous and industrious, and in their in dustry he saw the wealth and greatness of the upper classes. (Hear.) He was not less the friend of the upper classes than of the working classes when he implored them with all the power which he could put into words to pass this bill, and to treat their countrymen with generosity and with justice. (Cheers.) Sir 11. CAIRNS said there were few subjects which the hon. gentleman the member for Birmingham was not per fectly acquainted with, and with that before the house he was eminently so. But he had not touched upon the real question before the house. There was only ono reason why he would not rather make a speech on the subject before the house. (Oh, oh.) The hon. gentleman the member for Bir mingham made a speech against the third reading of the bill before the house. He thought it possible he might not have an opportunity of making a speech upon the third reading of the bill, and he took advantage of the present oc casion to make that speech now. He would not now consi der whether there would be a third reading of the bill ; but he would proceed to make a few observations on the question which was really before the house. The question which had been before the house was for the amendment of the repre sentation of the people. That was the question ; but on Monday night the noble lord, on the part of the Govern ment, said the question before the house was not the representation of the people generally, but simply the representation of the people of England, as the two bills for Ireland and Scotland were to be postponed. (Hear, hear.) Now he wished to make some observations upon the ques tion of order. Upon the question of going into committee on the bill before the house there were several notices on the paper with respect to instructions to be given to the com mittee, and these instructions had reletion to various altera tions affecting not only the English, but the Irish and Scotch bills also. The noble lord opposed the reception of those instructions, on the ground that they applied to the whole of the United Kingdom, whereas the bills of Ireland and Scotland were not before the house. Lord J. RUSSELL dissented, and was understood to say that the Speaker had decided aginst these instructions on the ground of their irregularity. Sir 11. CAIRNS said he heard the noble lord himself say, after the Speaker had decided against the instructions on the ground of their irregularity, and after the hon. gentle man had proposed to amend his instruction which he was moving by inserting the words " United Kingdom," that these words were a greater irregularity, because the bill before the house related to England only, whereas the pro posed resolution extended to the United Kingdom. (Hear, hear.) The house bowed to the decision of the right hon. I gentleman in the chair, but what he wished to know was this, was it right in the noble lord to hear that decision, and then wait until his hon. friend had made the alteration in question before he came forward to object to that alteration, by describi ng irondeeseri thebing it as a further irregularity, because it could not apply t o t h e bill before the house? (Hear, hear.) So question of order. He would now refer to the lation until the r es l J'sts of the census of next year were as certained, and t'ay.s by a caprice which had been by no means unu sual 41 - tlea course of that debate, they were met on the motion for: 'going into committee, by an amendment the evident i• J'eention of which was to defeat the bill altogether. (Hoar, hear.) The honourable and gal lant baron 4 however, the member for Ayrshire, ceuld not be contevat with that. It would have met his views if the Engli eh bill had been withdrawn, but nothing would satisfy him but the indefinite adjournment of the debate itself. Wel with regard to the withdrawal of the two bills, did Callon. gentleman doubt that if he and other hon. gentle mien would help them to go into committe, and to consider Ithere the details of the English bill, it would be possible to pass it ? (Cheers and laughter from the Opposition.) The Irish and Scotch bills were withdrawn because, simply, there was no time to pass them. And why was there no time? That was a question he did not stop to answer. (Derisive laughter from the Opposition.) Well, they were told at the same time that there was no enthusiasm in favour of this bill among the people. (Cheers froM the Opposition). That was true to a great extent if they adopted the standard of 1832, and the reason was that the abuses which culminated in that year were, to a great ex tent, swept away by the measure then passed. (Renewed cheers from the Opposition) A nation did not stir until it had good and sufficient ground for its doing so, and he should be sorry to see the nation stirring from a sense of oppression. (Hear, hear.) He was glad that they were now living in a time when they were free to discuss the question without excitement, and nothing could inspire them with greater hope for the future than that fact. Let them * therefore, profit by present tranquillity before they got into troublous times, which even next year might over take them. He would only now say that he hoped the house would not think of committing itself to a motion destitute of substantial meaning, but consent to do its best for the satisfactory settlement of the question Lefore it. (Hear, hear.) Mr. WHITESIDE said it appeared to him that the hon. and learned gentleman who had just spoken on this question with the ability which distinguished him, had affected to misunderstand the question before the house. That question was substantially this—whether the Go. vernment, after proposing to Parliament a measure con sisting of three parts, and permitting the subject to stand for several months in that position, were to be allowed to cause two of those bills to disappear, in order to reappear at another time, and under circumstances which might in volve the necessity of further debate in that house. (Hear.) The noble lord assured the house some time ago that an Irish and Scotch bill should be brought in, but now they disappeared, and he thought the English bill should dis appear also. The hon. member for Lanarkshire wished to have more members for his county, but if the English bill passed that would be impossible. The noble lord at the head of the Government, who was one of the most enthu siastic reformers of the age—(laughter)—could inform him of that fact. He thought the noble lord had quite enough to do at the present moment without touching their old Constitution. He had to keep Russia quiet, to console Belgium, to lament over Switzerland, and to conciliate or confront France as the case may be, instead of introducing these Reform Bills. No doubt the noble lord was right in introducing the three bills together; but he wished to know why it was that course was departed from in the present instance. Mr. BRIGHT said he did not know that he was wiser than:anybody else with regard to the aim of that discus sion ; but with regard to its object there could be no mis take. (Cries of " Hear, bear.") They had one amendment tripping up another. (Hear, hear.) The first was moved by an hon. member at that (the Ministerial) side of the house, and proved rather tempting to hon. gentlemen op posite ; but having since examined it, they came to the conclusion that to move the rejection of the bill on such grounds would be false and injurious, and they therefore got up the amendment brought forward that evening. (Cries of " No, no," from the Opposition.) Last year the right hon. member for Buckinghamshire proposed a bill on this subject, and the right hon. gentleman either thought the question an important one. or he played false to the house and the country. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman thought it so important that he proposed to add 500,000 electors to the constituency of the United Kingdom. He knew that the right hon. gentleman said, and his supporters repeated, that he did not take these 500,000 electors in a gross lump, as the noble lord proposed to do by this bill. (Cries of " Hear, hear," from the Op position.) The right hon. gentleman informed the house that his plan was to select all the good men everywhere, and from these good, intellectual, and reverential and Con servative citizens make up this body of 500,000 men to add to the present electors. The question which he (Mr. Bright) would like to ask was this :—Where did these 500,000 men live? They did not live in houses above £lO rental, because they had already the suffrage. They did not live in houses with a rental between £lO and £6 a-year, because they would be enfranchised by the bill of the noble lord. These intelligent gentlemen were not citizens—they were not heads of families ; they were not householders. They were not of the number vshichthe noble lord intended to include by his bill, but were to be found somewhere else, perhaps living in tents, by some ingenious mode of fancy franchises, which was to pink them out. The right hon. gentleman even stated tnat ne we= go further than ins bill proposed, and would reduce the franchise in the boroughs ; and more than that, he admitted the claims of the working classes to the franchise, and said that he would admit them with generosity and sincerity. (Opposition cheers.) He was glad to hear there was anybody on that side of the house animated by the same feeling. (Renewed cheers.) More than that, the right hon. gentleman was understood to have given a distinct pledge to certain mem bers of the house, not that he would do just that, but that he would do it in this particular shape, if he was enabled to bring forward a bill again ; that was, if the present Go vernment were not able after the general election to dis lodge the right hon. gentlemen from office, he would bring in a bill giving a £lO rental franchise to the counties, and a£6 rental franchise to the boroughs. (Hear, and cries of " Oh, oh;") Mr. DISRAELI was sorry to interrupt the hon. gentle man while speaking, but his general argument was founded upon a statement which was entirely fallacious. What the hon. gentleman had stated with regard to the words used by him in that house was correct enough, but any thing the hon. gentleman had said which he had heard from hearsay, he (Mr. Disraeli) begged to say was perfectly un founded. (Opposition cheers.) He had never made a state ment directly or indirectly at all inconsistent with what he had stated in that house. (Renewed cheers from the Oppo tion.) Mr. BRIGHT said that if what he had stated was cor rect, he should not hold it to be inconsistent with the sen timents expressed by the right hon gentleman in the house. Ile had his information from speeches which had been de livered by members of that house in various parts of the country after the last session of Parliament. (Loud cries of " Oh, oh.") He of course would not hold the right hon, gentleman to that statement after what had just been said —(hear, hear)—but at the same time the house would ad mit that when members had stated it elSe*here. (No, no, Name, name, Order, order.) 'Well, it would be very easy to read extracts from the speeches. (Renewed cries of ,c Name, name," "Where, where," from the Opposition.) He was willing to take the statement of the right hon. gen tleman, that there was some misunderstanding with regard o it, but if hon. members wished to hear what was said in one speech he could easily refer to it. In a speech made by the hon. member for Snnderland (Mr. Lindsay) in August last year, he stated in the most explicit terms that one of the considerations on which he had given his support to the Government of Lord Derby was this—that in regard to Re form, the late Government should declare that they were prepared to bring in a bill which should provide for the borougbs a£6 rental franchise, and for the counties a £lO rental franchise, and that at least 30 of thesmaller boroughs should be disfranchised. (Hear, hear, and Oh, oh.) These were the conditions of the hon. member when he gave his consent to oppose the party move headed by Lord John Russell. Captain JERVIS—That statement was contradicted at the time. (Hear, hear, and a cry from several members on the Opposition, " By Lord Derby.") Mr. BRIGHT said—Coming on this session, the right hon. member for Bucks had been himself to a certain point not inconsistent with thislatatement, because if the house would remember the tone and the matter of a speech deli vered by the right hon. member on the question, they would find that his intelligent judgment led him to the conclusion that it might not be evil to endeavour to settle. the question this session, on the basis proposed by the pre sent Government. Did not the right hon. gentleman say he should move rrp:amendment on the second reading ? (hear, hear)—and farther, b e went on to say that he doubted extremely whether he should think it necessary or desirable to offer any arhendments in committee. (Hear, hear.) All' this had been to hiM (Mr. Bright) eminently satisfactory, because it showed that the man most eminent on the Op position side of the house, the man most competent to form a opinion, and the most far-seeing as to the views hnd wants of the country, did not materially differ with her Majesty'fi Government grieved now on this important subject. He to find that the right hon. gentleman had taken anothercourse-a course not into which he had been led by his patty, but_into which he had been driven by the more violent of hi s supporters. (Hear.) And when he looked at the eminent position of the right hon. gentleman —when he felt how clearly must see what ought to done with regard to this great he be grcatnsubject, he lamented that the right hon. gentlem a n was fol lowers to a course as enlighteneodtand ableasto persuade his r. , hear) sen 8 . ible H a e s hthadathef od was prepared to take himself. ( e a la mented to see that, like a cha rac t er the right hon. g entleman was "to grind in brazen fettersl, with that heaven-gifted strength." (H e l ar) uThrer ta'sked Ile hon. members opposite that if th e y followed the assured of the right. hon. gentleman on many of these groat great questions, they would find that they acted more In son with the wishes and the true interests of the people. H e - s h ou ld like to ask the attention of the h ouse on points. Without going to the census of 1861 they all kn ew that the population of the kingdom would' be shown by th e next census to be 30,000,000, and they all knew that 7,500,000 of those were men of 21 years and upwards. They a l so k n ew that at present not more than 1,000,000 could come up to vote s and they knew that even allowin for • question of the representation of the people. When the 'in the afternoon. An anticipated laseitlide, a foretold in noble lord gave up the Irish and Scotch bills he might have capacity of sitting out the debate came over hon. gentlemen said the whole question could not be put into one bill. opposite. (Laughter.) At half-past 4 they felt that it would Looking at all the circumstances, he thought the noble lord, be impossible to find strength of body or mind to go on with who seemed to have abandoned the Scotch and Irish bills, the debate, and they begged and entreated to be allowed to ought also, in consistency, to abandon at the present ad- go home and prepare fresh speeches for these discussions. vanced period of the ebseion the English bill, and not longer (Cheers and laughter.) There may be a very fair reason why urge the house to go into committee upon it. (Hear, hear.) gentlemen who during the last few days have been attend- Lord PALMERST ON—The lion. and learned gentleman ing upon other amusements--(a laugh)—could not devote who has just sat down commenced by rebuking the hon. the time and attention necessary to prepare for the subject, member for Birmingham for having departed from the sub- but Ido not think it is a decorous motion to make to the ject-matter of this debate—for having made on the question House of Commons upon a question of great national im whether the house should adjourn a speech which he said portance. (Cheers.) This motion was founded upon some • belonged to the third reading of the bill. And the expla- thing which my noble friend stated a few nights ago re nation which he was good enough to give for that proceeding specting the bills for England, Scotland, and Ireland. He of the hon. member for Birmingham was that, being satis- stated that the prolongation of these discussions, the pros fied the bill never would come to a third reading, he was sure of public business, and the period of the session ren anxious to deliver now a speech which he would not have dered it unlikely that we should this session be able to dis an opportunity of delivering on the proper occasion. But pose not only of the English but also of the Scotch and the hon. and learned gentleman, with the most marvellous Irish bills ; and, that being the case, the Government inconsistency, has fallen into the very error which he un- thought that no public inconvenience coull arise from post justly imputed to the hon. member for Birmingham. (Hear.) poning until next session the discussion of the Irish and He has made to-night a speech which properly belonged to Scotch bills. The hon. and learned gentleman talked as if it the committee on the bill ; and he has done so for a better was supposed we were going to abandon the Irish and Scotch reason than that which he attributed to the hon. member bills. My noble friend did not make any such statement. far Birmingham ; for, whereas that hon. member, assum- His statement had reference simply to the order of proceed ing, as he ssys, that the bill would not be allowed to go to a ing, and to the fact that if we were able to pass the English third reading, has anticipated that stage by his speech to- bill this session it would be too late to take up the Irish and night, the hon. and learned gentleman, on the other hand, Scotch bills, which would, therefore, have to be left till the being determined, for himself and his friends, that this ensuing session. The hon. and learned gentleman says measure shall not go into committee, founded upon his own he has placed us between the horns of a dilemma, because decision, which he flatters himself he will be at le to carry either we shall or shall not have to advise the Crown to dis into effect, has anticipated by a speech adapted for the come solve Parliament after the English bill is passed ; and he mittee that stage of the bill which he and his friends have points out what, in his opinion, would be objectionable and resolved it shall never reach. (Hear.) But the hon. and improper in either alternative. Undoubtedly, it would be a learned gentleman was not merely inconsistent. If I may most unusual and preposterous course of proceeding for the be permitted to say so, he was also guilty of a gross act of Government, the moment the English bill has passed, to insubordination. (A laugh.) It belongs to the right hon. advise the Crown on that account to dissolve Parliament, in member for Buckinghamshire, on the eve of the prorogation, order that a new Parliament may take up the Irish and to perform the operation usually termed a review of the ses- Scotch bills. Suppose, for instance, that that had happened sion. But the hon. and learned gentleman, at the beginning which the Government might without any great exaggera of June, has not only entered into a review of the session— tion have expected—suppose that the whole house had (cheers and counter cheers)—in which he assumed to him- given its mind fairly to consider this question, and had ap self the functions of the leader of his own side of the house, plied itself earnestly to settle a safe and proper measure ; but he has actually trenched upon our duties, for he has like- then the Er glish bill would have been passed at an early wise executed "the massacre of the innocents." (Laughter.) period of the session ; but would any man have supposed The hon. and learned gentleman, besides diverging from that upon that account, immediately after Easter, Parlia the proper subject of debate by discussing the details of the ment would have been dissolved in order that a new Parlia bill, which ought to be reserved for the committee, went ment might consider the other twobills ? Yet the argument into a still wider range of digression, by discussing all the used by hon. gentlemen opposite in regard to the postpone measures that have been proposed in the course of the ses- ment of the Irish and Scotch bills to next session would sion, some of which have already been, while others of them lead to that. (Hear.) They say, "If you pass the English have not yet been, submitted to this house. (" Hear," from bill this session, and therefore prospectively alter the Eng the Opposition.) Nor was that all. The hon. and learned lish constituencies, then the Parliament elected by the old member enumerated the blessings which were to have been, constituencies will not be entitled to come together next ses or which actually had been, showered down upon us in the sion for the purpose of considering the other two measures." present year ; but there is one blessing which he omitted What difference in principle is there between a Parliament to specify—l mean the gift of tongues. (Laughter and whose constituency has been prospectively altered going on cheers.) The amplitude and excess with which that bles- in the same session to deal with the Irish and Scotch bills, sing has been bestowed upon the other side of the house to impose taxes, pass Important laws affecting all the great has been the main reason why:we have been deprived of the interests of the country—what difference, I ask, is there be full enjoyment of all those other good things to which he , tween such a Parliament doing that and the same Parlia has referred. (Renewed cheers.) If we have reached the ment performing precisely the same operation when called beginning of June without having even got into committee together after a recess ? lamat a loss to see the distinction. on a bill which the hon. and learned gentleman accuses us Therefore it by no means follows that because Parliament of hurrying through the house—(a laugh)—what has been should in one year complete the English Reform Bill, this the cause of this ? Why, we have been incessantly inter- house should therefore be incompetent to sit again next year rupted by delays purposely interposed to obstruct the pro- to dispose of the Irish and Scotch bills. It would certainly greys of a measure which those who wish thus to impede it not be till these three bills had been passed that, on that have not dared openly to attack. (Cheers.) Sir, I really account there would be any necessity for dissolving Par desire to call the attention of the house to the condition in liament and appealing to the new constituency. Moreover, which we are. (Opposition cheers and a laugh.) The hon. the new Reform Bill bestows on certain classes new rights and learned gentleman appealed to the house to rescue it- which must be recorded by the registrar, and therefore self from the undignified position in which it was placed. until the new register has been made, even if all the three I entirely concur with him. I, too, entreat the house to bills were passed, it is clear a dissolution could not on that rescue itself from what Ido think a most undignified posi- account take place. I am astonished that the hon. and tion. Does the house mean to pass a Reform Bill or does learned gentleman should have forgotten what passed in his it not ? (Laughter and cheers, and counter cheers.) The own country in 1850. A great enlargement of the Irish con hon. and learned gentleman ended by asking a string of stituency toox place at that time. But there was no disso questions. I also wish to ask a question—viz., whether the lution at that time. No dissolution took place till Lord house is of opinion that a reform in the representation is Derby's Government came into office it 1852. So that for proper and right, or whether it is determined that there nearly two years Parliament went on after that prospective shall be no such Reform ? (Cheers) The course adopted change had been made in the constituency of Ireland. (Hear, since the introduction of this bill would lead any reason- hear.) Therefore it is absurd to contend that the course able man to say that the house was resolved there should which my noble friend shadowed forth was one which could be no Reform Bill—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition)—or not be adopted consistently with constitutional principles none at least during the present session ; and it seems to me and practice. It would be perfectly possible, and would in that the arguments we now hear would equally apply to any volve no impropriety whatever, for the house to pass the subsequent year in which a similar measure might be pro- English Reform Bill this year, and to sit again next Janu posed. Let me beseech the house, then, to consider a little ary or February, or at any other time that the Crown might the position in which public men stand in reference to this be advised to call it together, for the purpose of going on with question. As long as the proposal of reform originated on the Irish and Scotch bills ; the dissolution being postponed one side of the house and was resisted on the other, as long not only until these bills had been passed, but until arrange as it was doubtful what might be the influence of argument meats had been made for the registrati nof the newly or what might be the effect of a dissolution and re election endowed voters. (Hear, hear.) I soy, therefore, that the upon the strength of the two great parties, it was justifiable ground on which this proposal is made will not hold water. for those who opposed reform to oppose it on principle—to But still more extraordinary is the inversion, which could object at every stage of every bill brought in to carry out an not, in point of order, be proposed directly, but which the arrangement which they thus steadfastly and determinedly motion for adjournment is intended indirectly to effect— resisted. But is that the position of the question now ? We the inversion, in my opinion, of putting the cart before the have had, as was stated by the hon. member for Birmingham, horse (a laugh) —that is, putting the Irish and Scotch bills not only many andrepeatedannounceraents from the Throne before the English one. (Cries of " No, no," from the recommending the reform of the representation to the con- Opposition.) Allow me to say that was the object sideration of the house, but we have no distinction in prin.. of the motion which was announced. (" No, rt..") I ciple between the two parties in this house. From the mo- presume the hon. member who made this motion will not ment Lord Derby's Administration proposed a Reform Bill, get up and declare that his object in proposing to adjourn and that bill was supported by the whole Conser vative tho Joneso Rao to act rid of the bill altogothor. The party, it was impossible that the House of Commons cou'd fact is, that this motion for the adjournment of the debate consistently and permanently refuse to pass a bill for the re- was substituted for the motion of which notice was given, form of the representation. (Hear, hear.) And therefore that the English bill should be postponed till after the Irish those who sit on that side of the house are precluded from and Scotch had been advanced a stage. The hon. and taking a course inconsistent with the conduct of their leaders learned gentleman undesignedly showed forcible reasons and their own conduct in support of those leaders. (Hear, why such a course would be impossible. He said the dis hear.) And I say it is not a straightforward or manly franchisement is in the English bill, and is to form the course—(loud cheers)—to endeavour by delay to oppose the foundation for the enfranchisement in the Irish and Scotch passing of a measure to the principle of which they are as bills. Consequently, you must pass the English bill before much pledged as those who sit on this side of the house. you can get the materials with which to endow Ireland (Cheers.) What is it they object to ? The bill that we have and Scotland. (Hear.) The course recommended by hon. proposed is acknowledged to be very simple in its provisions. gentlemen opposite is, therefore, palpably impossible a n d (Ironical cheers.) Yes, sir, no man can deny that. (Cheers.) absurd, and the course we propose is the only one we can It contains for its leading enactments the reduction of the with propriety pursue. I say again, Ido trust the house borough franchise, the reduction of the county franchise, will seriously consider the position which this question now and the transfer of seats. If the hon. gentlemen entertained occupies, and the attitude which parties on both sides of the objections to the bill which they nowexpress so strongly, the house have assumed in regard to it. Is the house pre why did they not oppose the second reading of the bill ? Pare/ to affirm that there shall be no reform in the repre (Cheers.) Every argument they now use went to resist the sentation of the people Ido not ask gentlemen on this side second reading, and I say they ought to have objected to of the house—l know that they will never answer, "No," the second reading. They did not do so, and they admitted, —but I ask hon. gentlemen opposite who her, after all therefore, the principle of lowering these franchises and a that has passed when their leaders were in office, they will certain transfer of seats, and their arguments consequently venture to affirm that there shall be no reform in the re entirely turn on the details and the degree to which these presentation of the people ?It is impossible. If, then, it be arrangements should be carried. Their arguments neces- impossible, on what ground is it that they refuse to allow sarily carry them into committee. If they were consistent the house to go into the consideration of the bill which we in their arguments, and if they were prepared to vote for have proposed ? I say, every argument they have used, the principle of a bill which reduced the borough franchise every fact that stands recorded as to their conduct when and the county franchise, and provided for the t ansfer of their leaders were in office, compels them in consistency seats—if their objections were only to the extent to which to go into committee. It is only in committee that they any or all of these proposals were carried, I say that, hay • can establish those objections which have been so ing, voted for the second readipg, they are bound to go into strongly urged by every one who has spoken on the op committee to establish those objections in degree, and not posite side of the house to the details of the bill. in principle, which they feel to the different portions of the We have told them we are ready to consider the details, bill. (Cheers.) The hon. and learned gentleman, how- and if the house agrees to any modification of these details ever, finds fault with my noble friend (Lord J. Russell) for consistent with the principles on which this bill is founded, stating that if when we get into committee the house we do not say that we shall not be prepared to submit to the should be of opinion that some modification ought to be decision of the house. But there are certain fundamental made in the arrangements proposed, her Majesty's Govern- principles in the bill which we could not consent to have ment would not be so wedded to their bill as not fairly to infringed, because that would destroy the measure altoge consider any proposals of that kind. The hon. and learned there One main principle of the bill is the reduction of the gentleman says my noble friend is inconsistent, because borough franchise. (Hear.) If hon. gentlemen opposite are when the late Government brought in their bill my noble prepared to move that there should be no reduction of the friend proposed a resolution establishing a certain principle borough franchise, they can do so. If they choose to say we applicable to the bill they proposed. But the case is en- refus to go into committee and discuss the details of the tirely different. What was the bill of the late Govern- bill when we object to its principles—we adhere to the prin meat? They stated that the one fundamental principle of ciple of Lord Derby's bill, that there should be no change their bill on which it was founded was the identity of the in the rental qualification for the borough franchise ; if hon. county and borough franchise—(cheers)—that another gentlemen opposite would say that plainly and distinctly, principle equally essential to the bill was that county voters then they would be pursuing a fair, manly, and intelligible in all represented towns should be deprived of their county course of proceeding. But they do not, they cannot take votes. If my noble friend had asked the house to go that course, because their leader and others who stand high into committee with the intention of proposing an al- in the estimation of the party have pledged themselves to a toration of the fundamental principles of the bill of the reduction of the franchise. Two distinguished members of late Government, it would have been childish the late Government quitted their colleagues because, I be and absurd. My noble friend therefore asked the house to lieve, they were in favour of a reduction of the borough resolve, before they went into committee, that these were franchise, while the rest were against it. Well, then, if not the principles upon which the bill ought to be founded. hon. g entlemen are not p re p ared to throw the bill out alto- The late Government gave up their bill, and quite consis- gether on its merits and on the principles which it em tently, b cause the resolution of my noble friend went to bodies, I say they are acting a part utterly unworthy of a the fundamental principle of the bill. But the objections great political party when they endeavour by delay to pre now taken do not go to the fundamental principles, but to vent the house from going into the consideration of a bill the details and the degree to which these fundamental prin- the importance of which they themselves when in office ciples are carried out. That being the case, the hon. and have admitted, the expediency of which when in office learned gentleman says we have been three months discuss- they have acknowledged and acted upon, the principle ing the bill and have not got into committee yet. Whose of which they no longer contest, and the details of which fault is that ? It is a little too much for those who inflict form the only ground of their objection. I say that an injury to make that injury a cause of complaint. upon every principle which ought to guide states (Cheers and laughter.) The hon. and learned gentleman men, upon every principle which ought to guide the then says that the details are not satisfactory, that an in- conduct of a political party, they are bound to go into the quiry has been established in another place, and which has consideration of this bill in committee and there urge those not been instituted here. Well, has any one asked fur that objections to the details of the measure which, no doubt, inquiry here ? Did any hon. gentleman who doubted these they consistently and sincerely entertain. (Hear, bear.) calculations ask for an inquiry, and did we resist it ? If Is the time of year such as to make this impossible ? It is such a proposal were not made, it was competent for those later, no doubt, than it might have been. (A laugh.) If who wished for an inquiry to propose it, and hon. gentle- they had acted on those fair and manly principles which men are not entitled to make that a complaint until such a ought to guide a great political party, there might have motion has been negatived. We have heard one hon. mem- been more time to spare. Is this tho conduct of a party leer or another, having a knowledge of this or that borough, which claims to represent the great portion of the property say that he had information which led him to think that and intelligence of the country—that portion of the corn there has been a difference, not very important, between the mummify which is most attached to the Constitution ? I say m esult of these returns as laid on the table and the result of that the fair, the proper, and the manly course for such a his personal and local inquiries. But these are points to be party to have followed was either to have said at once— urged in committee, and not upon the question of you, Sir, "Your bill is one to the principle of which we can never leaving the chair ; and, indeed, the whole of the discussion, agree, and therefore we object to the second reading ;" or, from the period when the bill was introduced to this even- if they did not entertain that opinion, to have said—" The ing, embodies a series of objections which have been urged principle of your bill is one to which we cannot object, but evidently for the purpose of creating delay, and a bill which to the details we do object ; the franchise is too low ;it will hon. gentlemen did not venture to oppose on the second introduce too large a proportion of the d emocratic element reading, they now feel themselves at liberty to oppose into the constituencies, but as that is a question to be con on the general grounds of the nature and tendency of the sidered in committee, we will go at once into committee and bill. We are now really come to a climax of these pro- endeavour to enforce our objections end establish our ceedings. (Cheers.) Hitherto, when a debate has been opinions." (Hear.) But such a party should not under the spun out to a great number of speeches, and the clock has shadow of a pretence of discussing without dividing obstruct arrives at a period of the night when it was too late for the whole of the great business of the country and prevent continuing the debate, a motion for the adjournment has those measures being carried which the hon. and learned been moved at an hour when it was impossible for the gentleman .Bays are so important, and some of which, in Government t o r efuse to acquiesce in the motion, with spite of all these delays, I hope, we shall be able to carry shoals of o ra to rs r eady with their speeches to continue the before the session is concluded. (Cheers.) That is the debate. But thi s ev ening there has been a novelty, because course which such a party, having a due respect to its posi the motion for the adjournment of the debate was made, not tion, and a due regard to the interests of the country, should as usual at 12 o'clock at night, but at half-past four o'clock have followed, (Hear, hear.) A motion is brought forward at 4 o'clock in the afternoon to prevent discussion, which thou vho moved the adjournment seem, nevertheless, pre pared to bring on, and I hope that the House, by rejecting that motion, will rffirm that this bill ought to proceed— (cheers) —that they aro prepared to go intocommittee, that they are prepared in committee to hear, to discuss, and to consider all objections which can be fairly and bone fide made to the details of the bill, and this house will not, under the ill-founded apprehension of two dissolutions, which is entertained on the other side, or under the appre henlion of a premature dissolution, be diverted from the straight path of public duty, but before the house separates, come to a vote which will show, ono way or the other, what ----- is the opinion of the house with regard to the measure be- fore it. (Loud cheers.) Mr. DI SRAELL—I can congratulate the noble lord on the first speech which he has made on the Reform Bill (cheers), and I am not at all surprised that he should have fallen into some remarkable errors when speaking on the subject, because I think that hitherto he has taken less in terest than might have been anticipated from a Minister so peculiarly responsible for the introduction of this measure. It is only because the noble lord has not until this night taken that part in the debates, th .t I can at all account for that total misconception of the business of the house with respect to this measure for the last three months which has characterised every statement of the noble lord. (Cheers.) What is the complaint of the noble lord ? The noble lord does not deny that the business of the house with regard to the measure has been carried on in a most unsatisfac- tory manner. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord does not deny that we are advanced in the month of June, and have not yet arrived at committee on this bill. The noble lord is astonished at the position in which his Government is placed with respect to this measure, and then the noble lord--with great precipitation and great rashness, as I think I shall show to the house—falls to scolding the house, and says the delay which he has experienced has been unreasonable, unconstitutional, and irrational. (Loud Ministerial cheers.) Not being suffi ciently acquainted with the conduct of this measure, which has been left to others, the noble lord thinks of course that the delay has been occasioned entirely by the Opposi tion. Why, it was only on Monday last that the Govern ment proposed to go into committee. (Cheers.) Here we are discussing the question upon Thursday, and the noble lord accounts for the little progress which the measure has made by the vexatious delays experienced, when it is on the records of this house that the Government themselves, having the management of the business of the house, hav ing generally all the days which are usually devoted to private members entirely at its disposal, only last Monday proposed to go into committee. (Cheers.) But before the appointment of last Monday let us see what was the con duct of this house. What was the conduct of this factious opposition seeking every delay and opposing to this consti tutional proposition of the Minister all the devices which the forms of the house will permit to prevent the progress of a measure, of which the noble lord is so enamoured ? Does the noble lord complain that the second reading was not op posed ? (Cheers.) Is that a sign of faction ? Is that a means of delay ? (Cheers and counter-cheers.) Does the noble lord complain that upon so important a measure— admitting, as he says we do, the principle of this bill, the house—not the Opposition merely—should have taken that constitutional and solemn occasion to discuss what may be the consequences of the application of that principle in its various details, as they occurred to them in the course of that discussion? Was a debate of five days' length so unreasonable ? Was that a space of time so unusual for a discussion upon such a subject that the noble lord is justified in turning round upon the house and accusing it of delay ? (Several hon. Members. —Six days.) Whether five or six days, who are responsible for the length of that discussion ? (Cheers.) Is it the Opposition? I think it was stated, and correctly stated, that in numbers, and, I believe, also in length, the majority of speeches were made by the supporters of the noble lord. (Cheers.) The noble lord turns round and says, that there is only one question to ask, " Are you in favour of a Reform Bill or not ?" I say that if the noble lord wants information upon that subject, I recommend him to apply that inquiry to the hon. member for the city of Edinburgh. (Cheers.) Let the noble lord ask him whether he is in fa vour of a Reform Bill. He sits in immediate vicinity and is in close political contiguity and sympathy with the noble lord. (Hear, hear.) For all I know he sits behind the noble lord, and he can ask the question in a whisper. (Laughter.) If the noble lord is not satisfied with the opinion of the re presentative of that enlightened capital, the modern Athens, let him ask the member for Bristol what is his opinion, and whether he is in favour of the Government Reform Bill. (Cheers.) And if the hon. member for Bristol in polite con versation indulges in that invective and sarcasm for which he is publicly distinguished, I would recommend the noble lord to address his inquiry to a graver mind—to the hon. gentleman who must share his confidence, because he owes to his patronage his exalted post—the member for Salford. (Loud cheers.) Let him ask the member for Salford whether he is in favour of Parliamentary Reform. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord may address this question to a number of gentle men on his side of the house. Here, perhaps, we have taken refuge in more general views. We have stated some large constitutional objections to the course adopted by the noble lord and his colleagues. But, for minute criticism—for vigi lant captiousness, for a degree of devotion to details which appear to be prompted by a sentiment of personal panic ; I should say that the great Liberalparty were mere distins guished than the gentlemen who sit on the 0 pposition benches (Loud cheers.) Parliament met early. For a whole fort night nothing was done. Why was not the Reform Bill introduced ? (Hear, hear.) I have shown the house that when the second reading took place the duration of the debate was not unusual, and was, indeed, becoming a theme of great importance. I have shown that the greater portion of that debate, and the portion most opposite to the merits of the bill, came from the Ministerial benches and from the habitual supporters of the Gov‘rnment. (Cheers.) I have shown that when that debate was closed the Govern ment did not propose to go into committee until last Mon day, the 4th of June—(cheers)—and now I ask the house and the country whether, under these circumstances, and in this state of affairs, the Minister is justified in the asser tions which he has made this evening, and the tone which he has adopted upon the subject ? (Cheers.) But is this all ? Not a tithe of the case. The noble lord says we did not oppose even the second reading of the measure, but that we took other means to protract discussion and pro voke opposition. What means ? I deny the charge. (Cheers.) Look at the records of the house, and examine those who are the authors of the amendments to the motion that Mr. Speaker do leave the chair. Where do they sit ? (Hear, hear.) Who are the members who have suggested amendments by which this measure might be arrested and ultimately defeated ? I need not refer again to the hon. and much respected gentleman who gave notice of the motion for referring the Reform Bill to a select committee, a motion the nature of which very much fluttered the noble lord the member for the city of London, but which lit up the countenances of many members of the party opposite with an air of relief that was sparkling and encouraging to all who beheld them. (Cheers and laughter.) But what is the state of the house at this moment ? It is true there has been an amendment to the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair; but who has made it? Is it a Conservative Minis ter who is to be held responsible for all the delays that have taken place, and whose conduct is to be the excuse for the clumsy and unsatisfactory manner in which this bill has been conducted ? (Hear, hear.) Ido not share the confi dence of the hon. gentleman who moves this amendment ; nor is that surprising, for he always sits behind the noble lord, and when he made this amendment he boasted that he had supported the noble lord in almost every division for many years. (Laughter.) Is it to be endured, then, that in such circumstances, instead of turning round to the hon. member for Edinburgh, the hon. member for Bristol, and the author of this amendment, the noble lord, in total ignorance of what has been going on in the house—(laugh ter)—like one just awakened from those rosy slumbers into which he always falls when the subject of reform is before the house—(great laughter)—remindifig us of the Ephcsian sleeper—awakes from his dream, exclaiming " God bless my soul, what's all this ? Are we going into committee on the Reform Bill, and are we thus beset with vicious, fee • tious motions for delay ?" (Laughter.) And then the noble lord denounces the factious anal unconstitutional conduct of the party opposite to him, while all the time the noble lord's intimate friends and supporters are the parties of whom he should complain. (Cheers and laughter.) The noble lord, in ignorance of all the warnings so solemnly given, of all the predictions put forth, and in defiance of all the calcula tions that havebeen made, comes forward on this the 7th of June for the first time, and condescends to say a word, I will not say in favour of, but about the Reform Bill. (Laugh ter.) But let us see what we are doing this evening ? The noble lord was clearly in error as to all that took place this evening. lam not surprised at it, as the noble lord was net here, having been present, probably, in a more brilliant scene. (Laughter.) I would recommend to the noble lord that in future he should adhere to the salutary rule that has regulated his Parliamentary conduct throughout the session, and not venture again to speak either about the Reform Bill cr the proceedings in this house with regard to it—(laughter) —because he has entirely misrepresented the motion of my hon. friend behind me—(no, no !), who, in a speech of great spirit and intelligence, introduced the subject before us to night, and who was led to take the particular course which he did take in consequence of an intimation from the chair that it was not competent for him to propose another motion of which he had given notice. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman, believing that he was following the proper Par liamentary course, made the motion which is now before us. But let me say one word as to what the noble lord has at some length urged about the alleged opposition and criti cism of this bill by the house. Hitherto there has been no opposition, but there ought to be no criticism on this mea sure, says the noble lord, because we are all agreed in prin ciple, and therefore discussion except in committee is not to be tolerated. (Hear, hear.) What does the noble lord mean by saying we are all agreed in principle ? for it is desirable to have a true conception of the use of the term. The noble lord says that before the Government of Lord Derby there were two parties—one for and one against reform, and that he says was a convenient system. No doubt it was a con venient system, for the Liberal party in opposition always constructed and organised themselves on the principle of Parliamentary reform:; but when they got into office nothing wa; ever done. (Hear.) The question was left open to any na- dividual who was entirely irresponsible as a Minister. (Hear, hear.) This game had gone on for a Tong time, Three Prinz° Ministers had recommended her Majesty to draw the atten tion of Parliament to the amendment of the representation of the people, and had laid bills on the subject before the House of Commons. The late Government were of opinion that, after all that had occurred, seeing that session after session questions of Parliamentary reform had been carried in detail by majorities, though not acted upon, it was advis able to bring in a measure. I will not argue now on the merits or demerits of that measure, but I must tell the noble lord, as he commenced the controversy, that we brought for ward that measure because in our opinion it was a Conser vative measure, and we view his measure with suspicion, because we think its tendencies are not Conservative. It is very well to talk of being agreel in principles. I remember in those great days when we had our debates on free trade, it was a common jibe of hon. gentlemen opposite, when any gentleman hers said he was a free-trader, but did not ap prove of the particular measure before the house, " Oh, it's all very well to agree in the pi ineiples of free trade, but all depends upon the application of them." The noble lord is by no means justified in saying that lecause we may agree in the principle of Parliamentary ref , rm, and in the exten sion of the, franchise to those who do not possess it, that therefore we are not bound to take into consideration what may be the possible consequences of the measure now in our hands. (Hear, hear.) I don't think that would be a wise course to take ; on the contrary, the time that has been taken up, from accident in a great degree, but in a much greater from the aversion of the noble lord's supporters to this bill, has enlightened the public mind, and when we are in committee, if ever we got there, we shall be able to con sider the principles which the noble lord has laid down with much greater effect and with much more advantage to the community. (Cheers.) These have been the principal topics of the noble lord's speech, but he hardly addressed one syl lable to the question immediately under our consideration. (Hear, hear.) Absent, I suppose, from the house during the whole of the evening, he must have entered in clear ignorance of what had taken place in his absence. He must have supposed that we were continuing the debate of the " vexatious amendment" made by one of his principal supporters. (Laughter.) He can hardly lay it down as a principle that when the Government have made the most important announcement that they will not proceed wi h the amendment of the representation of the people as far as Scotland and Ireland are concerned, the house should not desire to consider the new position in which they are placed, and should not stop in a precipitate career to inquire what may be the constitutional conse quences of such a course. (Hear.) The noble lord has not referred to the dilemma in which he was placed by my hon. friend the member for Belfast, or, if he did just refer to it, he did not appear in any degree to extricate himself from it. (Hear.) There is something even beyond that dilemma on which he has not touched, or at least he said just enough about it to show that he was t cared at the diffi culty which was placed hefore him, and which he found it impossible to avoid. The noble lord proposes that we shal this year reform, as is the general phrase, or rather amend the representation of the people in this country—that is, largely increase the constituent body of the country, and bring in a new class, and that class belonging to a much lower sphere of society than that which now enjoys it. He tells us now very differently from what was told us by his colleagues : " When this bill is passed we shall not have time to deal with Scotland and Ireland, and we shall not consider our selves satisfied, nor do we think any Minister would consider himself justified in counselling the Sovereign to exercise her prerogative until the amendment of the re p resentation of Ireland and Scotland is also accomplished." That the noble lord has announced now for the first time in unhesitating and unqualified terms. But what is the security that next year the representation of Scotland and Ireland will be amended? (Hear, hear.) These are not times in which we can count on such results. (Hear, hear.) I could dwell mueh on that point, but I will not at the present moment ; but, admitting that next year these two great imperial results are achieved, the noble lord will not deny this, that, thanks to the Chancellor of the Exche quer, we shall have the whole question of the taxation of the country to consider next year, and under circum stances most difficult, most liable to misconception in the public mind, and most calculated to create dis quietude and discontent in the public mind, even to raise disorder among the masses who are to be enfranchised, and that these grave questions of finance are to be settled not only by a moribund, but a condemned and dishonoured Parliament. (Cheers.) Is that a question unworthy of the discussion of the House of Commons? (Hear.) What have we been discussing to -night but that great question? It is not a question to be settled by the reckless raillery with which the noble lord had treated it to-night, (Hear.) It is one of the greatest questions which can be brought before the house, and we should be unworthy of our position, we should have offered an unanswerable argument for the re • farm and reconstruction of the house, if, under such cir cumstances, we attempted to evade the difficulty. So much for the speech of the noble lord, and for his unfounded charge against the Tory party of having offered to his sus picious and perhaps perillous legislation unnecessary delay. I think I have answered that point. (Hear, hear.) So much, too, for the noble lord's argument that because he has chosen arbitrarily to assume that we have agreed to what he conveniently styles the principle of his measure we are to be debarred from contemplating and considering in a statesmanlike and consistent manner what must be the con • sequence of the application of those principles to the state of society in which we live. So far, in the third place, as to the remarks of the noble lord with regard to the im portant theme which has engaged the attention of the house to-night--not, as I think, in a languid debate, but in a discussion introduced will great ability, under circum stances most justifiable—(cheers)--and sustained on both sides with that power which the interest of the subject must inspire. (Hear.) The noble lord has made no satisfac factory reply. We have been favoured with his virgin speech—(laughter)—but the noble lord has not treated the subject in a way which inspires me with confidence in the manner in which the Government is going to deal with this subject. The noble lord, indeed, has left a painful impres sion on the house that he has taken up this subject rather from party necessity than from political conviction. (Loud cheers.) The noble lord has challenged us to a division. On these grounds I meet him ; and I look to the result of that division without apprehension. (Loud and sustained cheering.) Lord J. RUSSELL—I will not long delay the house from a division. But there were some things said by the right hon. gentleman of which I cannot refrain from taking notice. In the first place, the right hon. gentleman has stated, as if it were a fact, as if it formed part of history, that when out of office we had been continually engaged in bringing for ward this question of reform, and that when in office we had not carried our views into effect. During the whole time from 1832 till last year I do not believe we ever brought for ward the question of reform when the party of the right hon. gentlemen were in office. Recalling to mind the periods of 18`5, of 1841, of 1846, and the year 1852, I do not think we ever brought forward the question of reform to disturb a Conservative Government ; on the contrary, it was when we were in office that we always introduced the subject. (Hear, hear.) But the question we have now to determine is—is this areal, tangible, substantial objection to proceeding with this bill, or is'it a mere pretext in order to prevent a deci sion ? (Cheers.) And though the hon. and gallant gentle man the member for Ayrshire brought forward this amend ment with great ability, I cannot conceive how it can be argued that it was our duty to say we would take the Irish and Scotch Reform Bills into consideration during the present session. If we had done so—if we had stated at this period of the year that we would not proceed with the English Reform Bill until we could enter tain the Irish_and Scotch bills together with it, it is quite evident that on each of those the Opposition would have consumed the time of the house ; they would have taken the course they did upon the second reading of the English bill; they would not have opposed the second reading, but they would have wasted the time, and then they would have said—" It is now too late to proceed with the English bill." (Hear.) The only practical course we could pursue was to take up the English bill, and to leave those for Ireland and Scotland to another session. And what is the reason which has been given against goinginto committee? What was the argument employed by the hon. and learned member for Belfast—what was the reason given by the righthon. gentleman? It was that Parliament would then be condemned, and would be unable and unfit to discuss this question of reform. But we have never said that Parlia ment would not be perfectly capable of legislation. (Hear.) We have not said, as we did in 1831, that there are 150 mem bers of the house who do not represent the people. After that Act was passed, I admit the House of Commons stood condemned ; but what has been said with regard to the pre sent measure amounts to this—that it would increase the value of the representation, that it would add to its force with the people, and that it would strengthen our institu tions, if a considerable number were added to the electors at present on the roll. But that does not imply any con demnation on the House of Commons—(hear, hear) — that is no reason whatever why the House of Com mons should not continue to discharge its functions for another session, and, why, having entered on the consideration of the English bill in the present session, it should not take up the Scotch and Irish bills at a future period. The hon. and learned member for Belfast said I proposed the borough franchise first because I wished to keep the county franchise higher ; and that I only fixed upon the borough franchise with a view to secure the addi tion of a certain number to the constituencies. He misre presented me in both these particulars. I never advocated a change in the county franchise upon any other ground than that the house had repea tedl y averred that a particular rate would be a proper franc hise for counties ; end with re d to the £6 borough franchise, I always expressed my belief that men living in houses for which they paid a £6 rental -were in many cas es artisans who by their intelli g ence and integrity wer e well deserving of a vote. "Well, then, take uly onen t sidediscuss or t t h h e e soot other A questions s m in yb nolf committee? e r ied has M'hy said, not and as it has bee n re p eatedl y p ut to the house, if y o u con: sider this a revolutionary measure, that will destroy the in stitutions of the country, oppose it manfully. (Hear.) But if you do not say that ; if you refuse to say that you w ill not admit the working classes in great numbers, then your only course is to go into committee, and determine what the franchise should be. The party opposite, however, prefer taking neither of these courses ; they will not make any fair and open declaration of their views, but they seek by delay and obstruction to. prevent a discussion of the measure in committee. (Cheers, and cries of "Divide.") The house then divided, when there appeared— For the adjournment . 218 Against Majority for the Government —2l Th e Announcement of the numbers was received with cheers anc: counter cheers. Mr. B. V9CHRANE moved the adjournment of the house. The house di . T7l.dt:d. The numbers were— For the adj . () 222 Against it .. , .., Majority .. ~ —45 The question upon M r . li:ackinnon's amendment was ut.nment then put. Mr. GRIFFITH moved tke adjournment of the debate. (Hear, hear.) Lord PALMERSTON said it was vat his intention to ask the house to go further with the subject on the present oc casion. He was quite satisfied with the divioion which had 1 taken place—(cheers)—and as the sense of the house had been sufficiently expz-es3ed, he should concur in the motion for adjournment, and propose that the debate be adjourned till MondayThemnoet x o t n . Mr. iSTIRLINGfor the aske adjournmentd wha t w was to th e b d e e d b o a n t e e w with a s t h t h e n agreed to. *o Scotch and Irish Reform Bills ? (L aug ht er .) • REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. CARDWELL moved that the order for the second reading of this bill be discharged. (Hear, hear.) Mr. HENNESSY opposed the motion. Colonel FRENCH protested against the provisions of the bill, and trusted that next year a very different measure would be introduced. The O'DONOGHUE moved the adjournment of the debate. After a short discussion the motion for the adjournment was negatived, and the motion for discharging the order agreed to. The order was accordingly discharged. REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (SCOT LAND) BILL. The LORD-ADVOCATE moved that the order for the second reading of this bill be discharged. Mr. BRUCE rose with the greatest pleasure to second the motion (Cheers and laughter.) The motion was agreed to, and the order was discharged. The adjourned debate on the second reading of the Tenure and Improvement of Land (Ireland) Bill was fixed for this evening, on the understanding that if it could not then be taken it should be proceeded with on the first open morning sitting. PROSECUTIONS FOR BRIBERY AT WAKEFIELD. Captain JERVIS moved a resolution to the following effect :—" That whereas by the Act 17th and 18th Vie toria, cap. 102, section 14, it is expressly enacted that no person should be liable to be prosecuted for any offence come• mitted against the said act unless such prosecution shall commence within one year from the date of the said offenee r , this house is of opinion, with reference to certain prosecu tions commenced at common law against divers persons at Wakefield for offences committed at the late general election against that act, but which prosecutions have not been commenced within the time prescribed by that act, that such prosecutions should be abandoned." Lord PALMERSTON said it Ns as impossible at that late hour of the evening to proceed with the discussion of the resolution, which involved considerations of great im portance. He should therefore move the adjournment of the debate. After a few words from Mr. M. MYINES and one or two other hon. members, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the House of Com mons was called upon by the resolution to perform func tions which did not belong to it—namely, to interfere with the administration of justice. He might add that he did not think it would be satisfactory to the country that a de cision on the question should be taken. in so thin a house— [A hon. Member—There are 100 members present] —there being very few present but those who were there for the particular purpose of supporting the motion. He could only say that, whatever the decision of the house under such cir cumstances might be, the prosecutions should be proceeded with under the statute, notwithstanding' that he should bow to that decision when duly recorded. Captain JERVIS would not object to the adjournment of the debate if the Attorney-General would pledge himself to stay proceedings in the meantime. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—•I will not stay pro ceedings for a single moment. After some further conversation, the galleries were cleared a division, but none took place, and the debate was ad journed to this (Friday) evening. The house adjourned at five minutes past 3 o'clock. COUNTRY NABKETS. MANCHESTER-JUNE 7. The high prices checked business. English wheat 15 to 2s per qr. Foreign 2d to 3d per 701bs dearer. Flour is per sack higher. Oats and oatmeal neglected. Beans and Indian corn unaltered in value. BIRMINGHAM-JuNE A fair supply of wheat. The day being trade was ex cited, and prices were 2s per qr. higher for English, and is for f reign. Barley is lower. Oats 6d cheaper. Beans in improved demand. MELTON MOWBRAY-JUNE 5. There was a moderato show of wheat to-day, with a dull business at the annexed prices :—White wheat, new, 52. Od to 57s Od ; red, 47s Od to 54s per 36 stone ; barley in small supply, at 38s to 44s for malting, and 32s to 35s per qr. for grinding ; oats, 28s to 35s Od per 24 stone ; beans, 50s to 51s for old; new, 49s per 38 st. PLYMOUTH-JUNE S. Busine , s again slow to-day. Prices for wheat unaltered ; barley scarce, and at late prices; oats were dear. A thin attendance at market. The quotations are—English white wheat, 52s to 56s ; red, 53s to Ms per qr ; French do., 45s to 46s ; grinding barley, 30s to 32s ; oats, 24s to 26s ; and flour, fine, 39s to 40s ; seconds, 37s to 38s. EDINBURGH GRAIN-JuvE 6. Wheat on the top 2s Od up ..... average Os Ild up. Barley on the top 2s Od down average Os 7d up. Oats on the top Os 3d up Beans on the top is Od down average Os 7d up. Averages per Imperial quarter. Wheat. Barley 1 18 5 10-12ths Oats . 1 11 7 10-12ths Beans Total Supply and Sales. Wheat .1261 qrs Sold 1141 qrs 8ar1ey........ 156 qrs Sold 123 qrs Oats 938 qrs Sold 469 qrs Beans lOl qrs Sold 64 qrs DERBY SMITHFIELD-JUNE 6. There was a short supply of fat beasts, and a further ad vance in pricg was obtained. The supply of sheep larger, and prices unchanged. Lamb s more plentiful, and sold well. Fat and store calves scarce, and there were but few pigs in demand. Beef Bd to 81d 1 Veal Mutton Lamb 9d to 10d Rough fat, 4s 9d per stone. 3id to 54d; calf skins, 7d to Od. THE MAILS. MAILS DUE. Australia, Ceylon, and Mauritius (via South ampton)•• • • • • • • .. .. June 10. Do . (via Marseilles) Overdue. Bahamas and Havana (via New York) .. June —. Canada, &c. (via Cork) June 7. Cape of Good Hope, &c. .. July 1. China, Penang, and Singapore (via S'ampton) June 18. Do. (via Marseilles) June 12. Gibraltar (via Southampton) .. .. June 10. India (Calcutta), Ceylon, &c. (via Southampton) June 18. Do. (via Marseilles) June 12. India (Bombay), (via Southampton) .. June 10. Do. (via Marseilles) June 20. Lisbon, Brazils, Buenos Ayres, &c. • • • • July 5. Lisbon, Vigo, and Oporto June 11. Malta, Egypt,' and Aden (via Southampton) .. June 10. Do. (via Marseilles) June 20. United States, California, &c. (% is Cork) Western Coast of Atrica, Madeira, Teneriffe .. June 10 West Indies and Pacific, Carthgena, Cuba, &c. Juno 14. BIRTHS. APPLEBY. —On the sth inst., at 5, Park-road, Holloway, the wife of C. J. Appleby, Esq., of a son. CARRUTHERS.—On the sth inst., at Finchley, the wife of James Carruthers, Esq., of a daughter. CHADWIcx..—On the 2d inst., at Ryston Lodge, Newbridge, Ireland, the wife of Lieut. Robert Chadwick, 14th Light Dragoons, of a daughter. MARRIAGES. BRAY—MAIR.—On the 6th inst., at South Berstead, Sus sex, Captain E. Wm. Bray, 83d Regt., eldest son of the late Colonel E.W. Bray, C. 8., to Ann Elizabeth, second daughter of Lieut.-Colonel Mair, of Northampton-place, Bognor. FAWCETT — PEA.RSON.—On the 6th inst., at Dawlish, De von, Charles Fawcett, of the Admiralty, Somerset-house, to Frances Susannah Owen, only daughter of Sydney Pearson, Esq., of Dawlish. DEATHS. ALLEYNE.—On the sth inst., - at Barton-under-Needwoed, Rebecca, wife of Sir Reynold A. Alleyne, Bert. BRIGGS.—On the 6th inst., at Richmond, William Briggs Esq., aged 38. MATTI .—On the 6th inst., at Hackney, Robert Alexander Blyth, of the firm of Blyth, Son, and Cooper, Chiswell street, aged 41. COLBY.—On the 3d inst., at Greenwich, Mary, the wife of Commander Colby, of Greenwich Hospital, aged 6 SIMPSON.—On the 6th inst., James A. Simpson, Esq., of Montague-place, Russell-square, and Moorgate-street, aged 65. VA.NDELEUR.—On the 6th inst., at Woolwich, Arthur Vandeleur, Esq., of Ralahine, Captain and Brevet-Major R.A., aged 31. LONDON : Printed and Published by KURD() YOUNti of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 117, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the :u. linty of Middle; es, Friday, June 8, 1860. Tt D t gan 4ec VI