The Sun. — London, England, 1858-06-25 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIA'MENT. • HOUSE OF LORDS.—(YESTERDAY.) The LOUD CrIANCELLOIL took his teat on the woolsack at five o'tl,ck. Lord D UNGANNON gave notice that to-morrow he would, present a petition from Fincbley praying for the insertion of clauses into the Ecciesiactical Commission Bill, vihich would empower the devotirg a portion of the funds in the hands of the commissioners for the en dowment of the two churches of Finebley. He should also on an early day ask the Archbishop of Canterbury whe ther be intended to bring in a bill to provide for the re pairs of parsonage-houses ? BERRIES PEERAGE. Lord REDESDALE brought ap 'the replrt of the Committee of Privileges upon the c:aims of Mr. Mrla well to the Herries peerage. The committee were of opinion that Mr. Maxwell hail made out his claim. THE AFFAIR OF THE REGINA. CCELI.-THE FRENCH VERSION. The Earl of MALMESBURY said it was his public duty and a matter of justice to remind their lord-hips of a conversation which occurred in tha'. house on Tours day last, in consequerce of an account received in this country of the packet ship Ethiope, on the coast of Africa, having captured the French ship Regina Cosh, which was then in a state of mutiny, and whose crew bad been murdered by the African emigranti on board. He had then guarded himself by saying tha - , he had no official information of the matter, bat the story, as told and' repeated a week ago in many newspapers, and by Lord Brougham in that house, was to this effect :—That a French emigrant ship, going from the African coast to a French colony in the West Indies, had been risen upon in the absence of her captain and part of her crew, by some of the emigrants—that 11 Frenchmen had been murdered—that the captain of the Ethiope, at the re quest of the French consul, bad taken possession of her and brought her into the port of Monrovia—and that although the captain of the Ethiope had thus acted by desire of the French authorities, two French men-of-war bad come in and taken her off by force. That was the statement made, and he then believed that statement to be correct. Lord BROUGHAM—I said nothing a'iout the French men-of-war at all. Lord MALMESBURY said that the circumstances so related very naturally created considerable excitement on the evening in question. Observations were made by several noble lords on the system of obtaining emigrants ,from Africa which had been adopted by the French Go vernment—those observations being very naturally in duced by the account which was then assumed to betree. But it was only f_sir, and a duty which be owed to the French Government (though he bad not been asked to do en), to state to their lordships what the French offi cial account of those circumstances was. Tney had been represented to her Majesty's Government through the French Ambassador ; and though there bad been no hint or request to him to inform their lordships of these circumstances, he considered it an honouratle duty to do so. The noble earl then read the following commu nication : " .Paris, June 18. "My dear Count,—We first hoard from newspapers, both French and foreign of the deplorable scenes which occurred on board the Regina Cceli, on the west coast of Africa. I have just received, and hasten to communicate to you, the report on this affair, which I have received from Lieut. Pointel, chief of the staff, to the captain corninaud ing our naval station in those parts. I annex the letter of Mr. Protet and of the commander of Jere° on the subject, in order fully to apprise you of the details of this affair. The facts aro briefly these :--The Regina Coeli, a vessel sent to the west coast of Africa, under the command of Captain Simon, with the view to obtain free labourers for our colonies, arrived at Cape de Monte on the the 29th Oct. last. The chief of that place strenuously urged Captain Simon to select for his operations that position of the coast above all others, and they both proceeded to Monrovia, the capital of Liberia, in order to settle the preliminaries of the affair. The president of that republic, en learning Captain Simon's plan, approved of it so highly, that he persuaded that officer to carry out his operations exclusively in the territory of the Liberian Republic. Capt. Simon hastened to pay into the hands of the local authorities the sum of 1,561 piastres, as passport duty, for the 400 free labourers with whom it had been agreed he shell d be supplied in the space of 40 days. Phis fact, by the way, conveys a good idea of the value to be attached to the recent protests of the Liberian authorities on the subject of our emigration, and on which the British ambassador at Paris laid such stress in opposit on to our own convictions. Be this as it may, the enlistment of emigrants was carried on with the greatest facility, and the greatest care under the superintendence of the Liberian authorities, as well as of the agent of the French government. 272 emigi ants had already era ived in the roadstead, and the rest of them were ready to embark, when on the 9th April while the captain and thegovernment agent were ashore, a quarrel arose on board between a negro cook and one of the emigrants, which caused a scuffle, and ended in a general fight between the emigrants and the crew, in which the second in command of the ship and 11 of his men were massacred by the emigrants. Capt. Simon, who heard this disturbance while on shore, jumped into a canoe, picked up one of his sailors who hat been thrown overheard from the Regina Cceli, but was obliged to return ashore, as his canoe capsized. Upon this Capt. Simon, as sisted by the local militia and some 40 Americans whom he hired by the day, attempted to recapture the vessel, and then cruised about with two boats, so as in a manner to blockade her. Matters stood thus on the 15th April, when the Ethiope, a merchant steamer, commanded by Captain Croft, arrived. The Ethiope had been sent for by a Mr. Newnham. the British Consul, who also fills the office of French congnlar agent at Monrovia. When that steam ves sel neared the Regina Cceli, Capt. Simon, who continued strictly watching his own vessel, went onboard the Ethiope, declared he was the captain of the Regina Cceli, and asked on what terms he might accept the assistance of the English steamer; for from the very first he had declared to Mr. Newnham, in concert with the agent 'of the French Government that he should reject the assistance of the Ethiope unless the conditions on which that assistance was to be Oven had been previously settled. Ile received no answer. The Spanish Vice-Consul fir Acra, and a French merchant, who were passengers on board the Ethiopo, explained to him that his vessel was being taken possession of. Captain Simon then wished to leave the packet and go on board the Regina Cceli, but was pre vented, seized, and consigned to the charge of two English sailors. Meanwhile the Ethiope took the Regina Cceli in tow, without encountering the slightest resistance from the emigrants, and proceeded on her voyage. Capt Simon asked the Spanish Vice-Consul for Acre to beg for a delay sufficient to collect on land eight of his crew, two of whom were wounded ; but Capt. Croft peremptorily re fused, and continued standing towards Monrovia, where she arrived about 8 o'clock at night, The report of Lieut. Pointel respecting this incident contains the following passage Manuel Leira, of Daroca, the Spanish vice consul, was indignant at the brutal conduct of the captain of the Ethiope, and openly protested against abandoning the eight Frenchmen. lie moreover furnished Captain Simon with a certificate to the effect that he was present at the inn() that his ship was captured.' On landing at Monrovia, Captain Simon went to the French consular agent (Mr. Newnbatn), infcrmed him of what had passed, and deli. ered to bins a protest against the capture of his ship. On the other hand, the captain of the Ethiope wrote to Mr. Newnham pretending to consider the act ho had committed as tantamount to the rescue of a vessel abaatloned and a'frift in the open sea. The wotisness or else the complicit! of the Liberian authorities iecreas d tho difficulties of the cas'. The in•inrgent emigrants finished plundariog the cargo of the Regin Cce . i 'n the very roadstead of Monrovia, notwithstanding the presence of the pars or of the Ethiope, who was left in charge of the ship. They were then permitted to land and disperse, without oven an attempt being made to seize those whore their comrades pointed out as the murderers of 11 of our sailors." He would also read a letter wLich Lad been received from Cap' ain Croft, of the Ethiope : " Royal Mail Steamer Ethiope, Ifonrovi , , 13th April, i 853. " Sir,—l h ave tho. honour to inform you th It, according to your request, dated April 14th, I proceeded A pril 14th, at 11 p.m., in search of the French ship Regina Cceli, seve ral of the crew of which ship ha l boon harharoualy mur dered by the einigrabta on board, who had afterwards taken possession of the aforesaid ship. 6.30 a m., April 25.—Arrived at Cap e M ount, west on shore, an ascer tained from the settlers that the ship Regina Cceli had been seen Aprilll, at 6 p.m., off Galinas. 8 a.m.—Sighted the Regina Cceli off Galinas drifting about quite unmanage able close to the shore. 9 a.m.—Steamed close alongside the Regina Coen, at the same time diAcovered the master of the aforesaid ship in a small boat without gunshot of the pirates. The captain of the Regina Cceli informed me in the presence of several passengers that he had been watching the aforesaid ship several days, but that the pirates always Lred at hiss when within gunshot, and showed warlike de monstrations to any person or persons attempting to go on board. 9.15 a.m.—Held a parley with the pirates, who finally delivered the aforesaid ship, Regina Cecil, over to my charge, upon which I sent my second officer, and seve ral of the crew of the screw steamer Ethiope to take charge of the Regina Cceli, as a prize of the aforesaid steamer Ethiope. 9.30 a.m.—Steamed ahead, with the R;ina Cceli in tow for Monrovia. 9.45 a.m.—When catting the anchor on board starboard the prize, the chain of the starboard anchor ran out, which brought the ship up suddenly, car rying away the towing hawser ; sent chief officer and seve ral seamen on hoard to weigh the Regina Cceles anchor. 10.45. Steamed ahead. 7.30 p to., Aprills.—Arrived at Monrovia all safe with the Regina Cmli, and anchored her off Cape Measured°, with officer in charge. " April 16—Appointed Mr. Mackelvie my agent, and banded the ship Regina Cmli over to him. "A. J. M. CROFT, Master of the steamship Etbiope. " J. G. C. L. Newebam, Esq." "Signed before me, in my office, at Monrovia, this 16th day of April, 1858. "J. G. C. L. NEwNif.tar, . Her Britannic Majesty's Consul." It was quite evident from the account of the consul and of the captain of the E , biope, that they did not take pos session of the Regina Cm i from any feeling of sympathy with the emigrants, for they were looked upon as pirates; lotet their object clearly was to obtain salvage. The French captain having lost his ship, and not being able to make a favourable bargain fer i.s recovery, preferred watching it until such time as he could make a better bargain. In spite of this Capt. Croft did take the ship into Monrovia, and cl a i me d salvage; the French captain prole ted against being Paved— laugb)—and refused to pay the salvage. Probably the Liberian G overnment b a d f e l t i tself not to strong erough m i:teifero in the matter any further; and the Frpech i,tti-oolnesar calling in and adopting the view of Captain , O th l ey bad taken the ship into their own hand.. which appliendytofu. Th e rt her remark he bad to make was one vvh il imself. These circum stancesonogt sloe to place imphcit showed that they cp.,Tni,ig from ore belief in the fi rst verpien party only. They had non both trhYo gh i Ah acc , tint and the French account. Ile mut hay prisei, and did not understand th e fact n xthientatith:e: r ". l o an - Government should have been se ship retaken, and should then have den L t d fro m a f v u e t the interference in the matter. He believed that, a. 4 the la e e r stood, we had no right to interfere with that s hi p. Lord BROUGHAM said it was equally dangerous to give implicit belief to the second aa.ta the first state. went, for they were both statements from the respec tive sides. (Hear.) How did it happen that when the Re gina Cceli was boarded, the mar acles had to be taken off the emigrant 4 Did that look like free emigration? (Rear.) There could not be a shadow of doubt that these so-called emigrants were slave?, bruu4ht down to be sold for the purpose, under the guise, of free etuigra tion. (Hear, bear.) It was most unfortunate that we had not the means cf seein' the unofficial accounts that reached France. Several such had reached him, and the statement showed that those unhappy Africans were not free emigrants, but slaves, cold for the purpose. VT( re there the ordinary c:rcnlatioo of intelligence in Fra-ice which prevailed here ' there would be the means of 0 , 4 - - renting these official accounts which carefully avoided the main point at issue— whether force had been used towards these erni.:rante. (Hear.) There was no qnes tion about the law of nations in this case ; there might be a question cf salvage. Undoubtedly, in the presence of the French captain, no other person had a right to take possession of t he ship, whatever might be the na.: ture of her cargo. It was sail they were free emigrants; and yet the first thing they did wag to rise and murder the crew .Was that the way in which our free emigrants to Canada and Nova Scotia acted? There could be very little doubt whatever that these were slaves taken on board against their will, by force and fraud, and that this wa4 a renewal of the African slave-trade. (Hear:) Earl GP,EY thought further information was required before they could form an opinion. The case originally stated• was not entirely set aide by the communications now reap. He should he glad if the French Goveznrnent could prove that these men were emigrants on board the vessel by their own choice ; but should it turn out that they were slaves, 'TA ularly purchased and manacled, they were justified by all the laws c.f God and man in doing what they did to regain their liberty.• In spite of the contradiction now given there were circumstances o f great suspicion in the C 330 ; for no only with repo d to this vessel, but the whole working of the contract, we had information that under this colour a regular slave trade was being carried on, and that wars were set on foot for the purpose cf procuring slaves. He believed that if they trusted only to fair means, it would be im possible to obtain emigrants. They ought not to receive the first account against the President of Liberia, but should wait to hear his explanation. He believed that the President had condemned the way in which the French contract was being carried out. It was said that the vessel being a French one an English ship had no right t take possession of her. But, assuming that the rising was a lawful one, the ship was in possession of the Africans, and the English were justified in giving them any assistance wbich they required. (Hear.) He hoped that the Government 'would do justice to our own offi cers on the coast. The story of the French authorities was so full of inconsistencies that it ought not to be received without confirmation. The Earl of MALMESBURY said a few words in reply, and the subject dropped. THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY ought to be heard. They might strike, if they pleased, but hear them first. There was neithtx wiscitSm, justice, or expediency in depriving the corporation of their pro- ' pees:. To do ro would be an act of confiecatioe. Jr, CRAWFORD eccended the motion. He raid the corporation cf London were ea anxious as any one to have the corporation rlaced on a footing with the spirit of the times, but they were averse to the conficating character of the bill. The bill was read a second time on the understanding that the corporation should be heard against it before a select committee, though the right lion. gentleman the Home Secretary appeared to be of a different opinion. The conviction on the minds of many hon. members was that the bill was to be sent to a select committee after its second reading, and the corporation heard before them Sir G. GREY said there were no rights of property in a corporation the same as in an individual. The muni cipal corporation bill establh;hed the principle of dealing with corporate funds • Witheut compensation. The best course for the honourab'e and learned gentle man to have taken would have teen to move the committal of the bill this day three months or to have gone into committee, and on these clauses have urged the arguments he had used in sup port of his motion when they could have been consi dered. If the further. progress of the bill was to be delayed, it should have been done by a direct mo tion. He by no means raid delay was not neces sary at this period of the reason and the state of the Thames--(hear, hear)—for probably de'ay would be advantageous. Ifs, however, warned the Corporation against imagining that the bill would then be amended in accordance wit their wish. It would then in all pro. liability be amended more in consonance with the interests of the public which in many instance were opposed to those of the corporation. (Hear.) He be lieved the result of delay would would be to carry out more folly the valuable recommendation of the Royal Commissioners, and the Corporation of London would then probably reJet they had not accepted the concession this bill gave them. If the further progress of the bill was delayed, he should consider himself no longer bound by this bill, and he should consider himself freer to act mo e in accordance with the recommendation of the RAyal Commissioners relative to police and other mat ters. (Hear, hear.) He considered it was better to go into committee on We bill, and then they could con sider the expediency of the corporation of Londoo being permitted to impose duties on corn after Parliament had abolished the core tax. Mr. W. WILLIAMS congratulated the corporation on their having retained the services of one of the most eminent gentlemen at the bar in their defence, with reference to the right of the corporation to levy a tax upon corn Messrs.. Coombe, Delafield, and Co. many years since refused to pay it, and the corporation of London had not the courage to go into a court of law and enforce it. Re denied that the corporation of London had borrowed a million of money without haring the most ample means of payidg it off by the interest of the property in whic'a it was invested or by the imposition of local taxes. The only sum borrowed without these advantages was 9200/. for the building of Holloway prison. The At torney-General entered into many details connected with the income and expAen cure in comparison wi•h the Governmental expenditure of a similar character. Tie would support delay if there was a probability of the re commendation of the Royal Commissioners being carried out, and believing it might be accomplished by agreeing to the motion, he would vote for it. Mr. S. WOR,TLEY had strong objections both to the principle and the details of the bill. He called attention to the improvements the Corporation cf London had effected, and urged they were entitled to greater consi• deration than they had hitherto received, The bill in its present shape was undoubtedly a violation of the rights of property. He suggested that the clauses which affected the property of the corporation should be postponed until some arrangement should le made with the corporation. After some remarks from Mr. W. MARTIN, Mr. WALPOLE contended it was a waste of time to discuss the details of the bill now. It would be better to go into committee, where they could be better con sidered, and if necessary amended. The coal tax ought not to be discussed now, because it formed no part of the bill. (Hear, hear.) He thought they should deal leniently and liberally to the corporation, and he denied that there was any attempt to act towards them in an off-band manner. The bill was just to the corporation and to the public, and if it were delayed it might next session assume a shape less advantageous to the corpora tion. (Hear.) Sir B. HALL asked the hon. and learned member for West G!oucester if he intended to press his motion to a division Mr. BOLT —Yee. Sir 13. HALL said he regretted the hon. and learned member had decided on adopting that course. He dissented from the principles laid down by the hon. and learned member for West Gloucester. Scarcely five years since, when Sir C. Wetherell was in opposition, he used the same argument on the Municipal Reform Bill as the hon. and learned member for West Gloucester had used on this; occasion, but he (Sir B. Hall) need not remind the house that the predictions of that day had not been verified. He hoped if this bill stood the Government of the day would consider it to be their duty to bring in a bill founded strictly on the report of the Royal Commissioners of 1853. Mr. S. WARREN believeci.that in the present state of affairs matters were not ripe for an invastigation and decision by that house. The bill in its present form was downright confiscation. It attacked the rights and foundation of property and menaced the sanctity of pro perty whether that of corporations or private persons. The question before the house was, whether they would compel the Corporation of London to submit to the going into committee on a bill that deprived them of the greatest portion of their property, before the cor poration had had an opportunity of being fully heard before a competent tribunal. He thought the house ought not to adopt each a course. Mr. LOWE considered the rights of property in cor poration ought to be respected, and not taken from them except under paramount circumstances. Lord J. RUSIIELL consid , red the right of metage ought to be abolished, and the question of compensation was a grave one. He had no wish to dispose of hose sights in a summary manner, and he thought it should be reserved, with that of the coal duties, for future con sideration. Mr. LABOUCLIERE said that the corporation, when they abolished the street toll 4, recognised the right of interference with the other tolls and duties. The rights and privileges possessed by the Corporation were given, not to the few inhabitants who now lived within a cer tain boundary called the City of London, but for public purposes, to the whole of the metropolis of the British empire. Mr. J. T. MORRIS d d not object to the passing of that portion of the bill rela . ive to the political change, but be was no prepared to purchase it at the expense of the confiscation of the revenue of• the corpora'ion. The question of the whole of the metropolis being ad naitted to the privileges and rights of the corporation had nothing to do with the proposed interference wila the rights of property, on the security of which large sums cf money had been advanced for the benefit of the cit:z:ns and the public generally, At 10 minutes to fuer o'clock the debate was ad j ,ureed by the forms of the house. The sitting was then sulocuded. • The Louse resumed at sTx o'clock. ALLOWANCE TO WITNESSES. Mr. POWELL a,ked the Secretary of State for the flume Department whether Government intended to publish a mire liberal table of allowances to wit nesses at sessions and assizes, and whether such table would be published so early as to be made nee of at the approaching assizes and sessions ; also, whether Govern ment intended to propose a more liberal scale of lees for solicitors who were engaged in conducting prosecutions ? Mr. WALPOLE said Vie table of fees now in force must continue until the commissioners made their report. While the commissioners were pursuing their inquiry he thought it would be inadvisable to make any change. LOCAL GO. In reply to Lord GODEBICEI. THE LOC IL GOVERNMENT BILL. Mr. .‘ 7 IILPOLE said that if the bill did not come on that evening it would be taken on Tu'sday at a morn ing sitting, REGISTERING OF JUDGMENTS IN IRELAND. Mr. S. B MILLER asked the Attorney-General for Ireland whether his attention had been called to the re cent decisions in the Courts of Queen's Bench and Com mon Pleas in Ireland, with respect to the detects in the form of the affidavits generally adopted for regis!ering judgments on mortgages in Ireland, and whether it vgas his intention to bring forward any legislative measure during the present session in consequence of such de• cisions. Mr. WHIrESIDE had seen the decision referred to. He under,tood property to the value of about a million was affected by it. He intended to introduce a bill to remedy the de feet as soon as possible. COMMISSIONERS FOR EXHIBITION, 1851, BILL. On the consideration of this bill as amended, Mr. WILSON said he had given notice of certain amendments. By the bill Government was to retain a por tion of the land lying in the south east corner, but it was to be used for the sole purposes of the Derirtment of Science and Art. Toe government would soon have to decide where the new barracks required for the troops were to be built; and ho asked the house not to bind themselves to use this land for the purposes of science and art only. He thought it would be desirable that they should not tie their hands. He begged to move the insertion of the words of which he had given notice, the effect of which would be to allow the government to dispose of the land for any public purpose. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not agree:odstrel connected wt t o, o , inhlthsen t o, t eg i wxc e oete proposal in the shape it was put. The land had been purchased by the commissioners on the le t distinct understanding that no buildings should be r pu s rpose o l r nu e e dre e pn t w A ' o removed, government, with om i m e t e i t tO li s tt e : u ietspfh;e:treth hen.i h e)s1:: : esapacoadrrft art, He m f gentleman o sciencee r n n s t e o o w m sf ao o e Si u lf: l a o li d er t ar h rac e ac cept the amendment if the words "for purposes of sci ence and art" were added to it. After a few words from Sir H. WILLOITGBEY Mr. LABOUCHEIZE said the commi-sioners were net under a 1, gal but a moral obligatio n on this suhj3ct. The qneition of building barracks kv , s mooted when the purchase was in contemplation, and the commissioners could not obtain the land except on the explicit under standing that no buildings should be erected on it, unless connected with science and art. Mr. CONINGIIAM believed the ampodinEnt raised the question of moving the National Gallery. .u e would not vote for it unless there was a eleai and dls tinct understanding that nothing of the kind was intended. Mr. GLADSTONE considered the amendment a reasonable one, There appeared to be certain engage. Maks from th- T%eess sprung meets between b t e h t e w y ee h n ad th p e 4 ppared to lire maLly from the voluntary assent of this parties; they ought to be I , ft on the same basi., / and D ucrocrnhainseisdeiothneeraia afindd. of be male the. eC 'trio; !able in principle .4 the laud out of the position in which it now stood. S t: I tl n T iT wofoaUlbteu inconvenientan i r n Y l anomaly, res r practice,it l o n b:d o wc, Mr. T. BARING said thet if tract arrangement be tween the Government and the coma sissioner had con tinued on the came bating theta W ould have been no necessity for a statute ; but as Coat had been altered they ought to give a legal recogn itibt to what was now merely a moral recognition. Mr. S. HEBERT supported the amendment. The house perhaps was not aware the t at csVf.sen t the barracls accommodation was 1,000 she et of the number of men acta 1:y in Loneor. .The ques , ;eon of the amendment, however, did not depend merely i-on the barracks. Th e paztneribip was novr about to be dissolved ; and oug ht the Government to preclude th emselves from u s i ng the land for any public uurpo'F-e ? It was sa id there was a moral obligation, but be could , not see what w as th e moral obligation in a legal convej 'epee. The proprietor did not sell tLe land to promote 5 s -fenceand art, but to get a good price. If they wanted . to promote that pur pose they ought to have given the .land for nothing. Mr. KINNAIRD entirely coon erred in what bad f .llen from the right lion. gentleman who had just sat down, and thought the arrangement n,arle by the Go vernment was a very improvident one for the na clonal interests. Mr, COWPER thought the question, had nit been quite fairly stated by the opponents of tha, c lap4 e . Twelve acres of land were given up by the commis sioners to the Gov*rnmont for the purpose of building a museum and schools. The !and was divt ised of simply for the promotion of science and art, and it would not in his opinion be right for Parliament to atahorise its ap plication to any other object. Lord BLUM said he had previotr:iy expressed an opinion to the effect that the land land should be retained for any public purpose, and more especially for the erec tion of barracks, but subsequent reflection had Convinced him that it ought to be applied only to the purposes of science and art. Mr. HOPE did not see why the Government should be tied down in the manner provided for in, the bill. Mr. SLANEY opposed the ameadmen. The house then divided Far the amendment Against it Majority against it • -45 On the motion of Mr. J. WiLsoN, an amendment' as then introduced, with the assent of the tIIANCELLOR of the EXCEMIIER, leaving it to the Government (as was understood) to apply the land to purposes connected with science and art. Other verbal amend ants in accordance with this having been agreed to, the bill was ordered to be re ported on the following day. GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (No. 3) BILL. Mr. BARING presented a petition against any change in the form of government of India from inhabitants of Cheltenham—(a laugh) —many of whom had served in India, and still had interests connected with that country. Lord STANLEY, in moving that the bill should b 6 read a second time, said,—Considering that this house has been engaged from the beginning of February last up to the present time, though not quite without interrup lteinandrinign s pronvni si ons w n h o i e t h i n must deed a be n India o d b u i l e l e , d but taol any bill for the government of India, I think it will as gladly be dispensed from hearing as I shall be from offering any very protracted comment upon the measure which I have now to bring under its notice. I entertain that opinion the more confidently because, although it is impossible to hope or even to desire that any measure involving interests' of such vast importance shonld,pass through this house without ample discussion and full inquiry, the majority of:points upon which dif ference of opinion is likely to arise may be more pro periy discussed when the bill is in committee than upon the second reading. The details are for the committee to consider ; its principle is that which the house has already on several occasions agreed to, and of affirming which it is not likely to recede, notwithstanding that appeal against the danger of such legislation at a critical period,. and in favour of the postponement of any per manent measure which we fare just hsael urged by one who has Po much right to speak on this question. The principle of this bill I understand to be the transfer of the government of India from the Company to the Crown, the administration of Indian affairs by a respon sible Minister, with the proviso that that Minister shall be assisted by a council. As to the details, it seems to me that I had better go through them very briefly, but in so doing I shall simply explain what it is that we pro pose. and shall not stop to vindicate it by any long or elaborate arguments. The point on which it is likely that the discussion will mainly turn is the consti tution and functions of the council. In this bill we propose to adopt the number of members wiiieh was the other day approved by the Com mittee—viz., 15. Besides the fact of that number hav ing met the approval of the Committee there are various reasons why it should be adopted by the house. The number of those who are at present engaged in discharg big the somewhat analogous functions of carrying on the Indian business is 18. Now, if' at any future time we find that the business which devolves upon these gen tlemen can be performed by a similar number, it will be easy to come to Parliament for a further limitation, and to carry it out by the simple expedient of declining to fill up the next few vacancies which may occur. It would not, however, improve our reputation for consistency if, after having reduced the number from 18 to 12, or even a smaller number, we were afterwards to find that the business was too heavy for them ,to get through, and were to be compelled to rtrace our steps, to reverse our decision, and to revert to a number which we had previously declared to be unnecessarily large. (Hear, hear.) There is also a circumstance connected with the tenure of office by these gentlemen which renders it desirable not to keep the number down to the lowest point. On considerations which have already been partly di-cussed, and which it will be my duty again to submit to the house to-night, the Government has decided to propose that the members of Council shall bold their offices for life. Now, it is quite clear that under those circumstances you must make provision fur the possible event of some small number of them beingat some future time no longer as well fit!ed f r the active performance of their duty as they were at the time of their appoint ment. Further, I conceive that if the independence of the Council be, as this House has hitherto during these discussions held it to be, a matter of no :light moment, that independence esill be mole effectually secured when the Council is so extended that even of those members nominated by the Crown no efinister can probably have recommended the appointeeent of a majority, or of more than a small portion. There f ire, in order to secure tfli cieney as an additional guarantee for independence, and r in consequence of the vote of tho Committee the other night, we propose that the number of members of which the Council shall consist shall be 15. (Hear, hear.) To the manner of their choice, which was txolained on a former occasion, I will now only briefly revert. We propose that in the first instance 7 out of the 15 shall be elected by the Court of Directors from those who are or have been members of their own body.] In adopting that course we are following, or rather extending, a precedent which was set in the Act of 1853; and, considering the inconvenience which arises in the conduct of any business, more especially in the conduct of business ,on so extensive a scale as that of India, from any break or defect in offi cial tradition, considering the difficulty of working new machinery with new men, I think that the House will feel that on that ground, as well as on account of their personal ability and efficiency, it is desirable that is any c , until to be constituted there should be a considerable portion of those who now form the Court of Directors, (Hear, hiar.) - We pro - poie that the process of•election should precede that of nomination ; that the election of these seven members by the Court of Directors should take place within 14, and the nomination of the re mainder within 30 days of .er the passing of the Act, so that it may rest with the Crown to decid e whether, after the election has been made, there remain any members of the Court of Directors who ought to be selected as its nominees. There is another reason why it seems conve nient to take that course. I think the house is inclined, and just'y so, to share in that jealousy of the power and patronage of the Crown which has been expressed by the ,right hon. member for Oxford University. I can well understand an objection being entertained by many persons to the creation by the Crown alone of 15 officers of high dignity and considerable emolument. Now, if the election of half the Council is left in the hands of the Directors, the amount of patronage at the disposal of the Crown is so far limited, and the danger to which I have referred is avoided. (Lien.) With regard to the manner in which vacancies should be filled up, or in other words the permanent con stitution if the Council, we propose to adhere to the proposition which we laid do-vn last week before the committee—viz., that of nomination by the Crown and election by the Couimil for alternate vacancies. (Hear.) I have heard that described as a complicated mode of proceeding. I cannot presume to jadge what is consi dered to be complicated by some hen gentlemen, hut it, appears to me that a more simple mode of, or one more free from that complication and embarrasement which certainly would arise if there were what I may call a double election—a submitting of names by ene autho rity and an acceptance of them by another—could hardly be conceived. (Hear.) Although my object et present is rather to explain than to •vindicate the proposit'ons which we have ventured to submit to the house, yet we have heard so much of the danger of self-election, and of the abuses which arose from it in former times and under different circumstances, that I think it right to state that every argument to which I have listened upon THE OATHS BILL. On the order of the day for considering the report of reaso:is to be offered to the Commons for the Lords ic sisting on their amendments, The Earl of MALINIESBURY thought that in the continued absence from indisposition of his noble friend at the head of the Government, it would be better to postpone the subject until that day week (Thursday), when the two bills on the same subject would stand for discussion. Lord CAMPBELL could not help expressing his re gret that the intention stilt should be entertained of send•, log to the House of Commons reasons why their lordships should adhere to their amendments. He earnestly im plored those who wished for an accommodation cf this dispute to consider well whether it would not be better to tetain the bid they had in their hands instead of send ing it back to the C..minons. • The Earl of DESART, on the other hand, regretted the postponement of the reasons. The proposals tbat were made were not for a compromise, but for a conces• Ilion. Even if they were wilting to compromise the mat• ter, he thought the proposition ought to come from the other huuse. But he hoped their lordships would adhere to the principle for which they had so long contended, and would not yield up to the enemies of Christianity that upon which not only the legislation of the country, but all its laws and institutions, were based. The mater was then postponed. INDEPENDENCE OF PARLIAMENT BILL. Lord BROUGHAM, in the abience of Lord Derby, postponed the second reading of this bill. TRANSFER OF REAL ESTATE BILL. Lord BROUGHAM was understood to say it was the univtreal opinion, both in their lordships' house and in the country, that something Brest be done to facilitate the transfer of real property. Some years ago a commit tee had sat on this subject, under the presidency of his noble and lamented friend the late Lord Beaumont, and it had corns to the conclusion that the most grievous burden upon lind was thecostlinees of its transfer. That committee bad not been without result. He had himself paesed a f ,uedei epon its recommends,' inns, and he had bean assured by the agent of a noble duke that that measure bad effected in one year a saving of between 6,0001. and 7,0001. in the manegementof his lord's estate. Last year he (Lord Brougham) bad presented a petition from a gentleman who had been for many years the ma nager of a great number of properties, on which a sys tem of describing each by means of a number prevailed. During the last 30 years every one of those proper ties had been sold, mortgaged, or leased, and the ave rage length of the conveyances employed was 190 words and no more ; nor bad a single dispute ever arisen out of the transference of these estates in the manner he bad described. He (Lord Brougham) wished to see a similar plan take the place of laws which appeared to have been devised for the express purpose of making land as little a merchantable commodity as was possible. In Ireland, the Encumbered Estates Court bad no fewer than 2,400 petitions presented to it in the four years ending with 1854. It had effected 1,443 sales, and the money received had been no less than 14,105,0001. —3O great was the anxiety both of buyers and sellers to obtain the intervention of the newt ; of sellers, because they obtained, a better price for their land ; and of buyers, because they received the inestimable advaet tgo of a Parliamentary title. So great was the anxiety to obtain the intervention of the court, that all kinds of contrivances ware resorted to with that view. Fictitious debts were actually created in order to give the parties a right to rtition the c,,urt. The obj:et of his (the noble lord's) bill was to institute a system of registration ; but considering the late pe riod of the session at which they had arrived, he would not on this occasion press it further. Lord CAMPBELL su;gested the establishment of a registration of deeds, coupled with a proviso that no deed which bad not been registered should prejudice the rights of any subsequent purchaser of the estate. (Hear.) After some conversation, the order for the second reading of the bill wal understood to be discharged. Their ladships rose at 25 minutes past 6 o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY. The SPEAKER took the chair at twelve o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following private bills were read a third time and passed : —Athenry and Tuam Railway. B rkenhead Improverner t Cotutnissoners (Gas and Water), Dublin and Meath Railway, Redditch Railway, and Stockton ' and Darlington Railway (North Reding Lines). LONDON CORPORATION REFORNI BILL. petitions were presented by Alderman Cope land, Melt man Cubit', Lord J. Russel!, and Al !erman S , r J. Duke, agait et tie Loudon o)rporation Reform Bill, eepecia'ly a aln,t the cause that cot.S4cates the revenues of the corporation without compensation. On the motion for going into cummir,ee on this till, Mr. P.OLT, Coneidet lug tho bill put in peril the rights of oriva•e and corporate prol:eity throughout the king dim, could net accept the rt purt of the eernrnittee to whom the bill had been rderred, and moved the follow ing resolution :--" That the petition of the C i rporat i on of London against the raid bill, which was presented upo the 2&h day of May !reel, be referred to the com mi tee, and that the Corporation of Lon 100 be heard by their counsel, agente, and wilnesses, before the com mittee on the allegations it such petition." He divided the bill into two parte,one financial the other political. The financial part pr.;posed the simple regulation cf taking away a large portion of the revenue of the corpo ration, without compensation, whilst those who received emoluments from the cOrporation relative to certein does, (to., were to be compensated by the corporation out.of their remaining revenues. He objected to the bill on the ground that it inter`ered with the rights of pro perty ; and his definirien of the ownership of property was, that they could be maintained in a court of law, or could obtain redress for a wrong inflicted. There was no distinction in law in the enjoyment ofpropertybetween individuals and corporations, and they ought to consider the question of metage, toile, and dues belonging to the corporation as if they belonged to an individual. The rights of property depended on their universality, and he thought It neither just, wise, or expedient to interfere with them by this bill. The income of the corporation was 100,0001, a year from land, and 100,0001. a year from markets, rnetage, and wirer tolls. With respect to the 100,0001. a y_ar from land, a large portiere of that property would soon expire by the runniegeont of tease-, - y th ea ? r b s t 2 al o ll ,o a oo , e l r m a a y n e e a and incomeneu s o t f 1 f , o rr o, s o o o m o e l y a e r e e a r t . o co &c., and th e corporat i on had very wisely put by for some Out rn of the other 100,0001. a year were paid for expenses of col lection of tolls, &e., which were very heavy. 10 000/. a year were detiewed for drawbacks on property exp eted, and there were other charges Which made the expenses in that department about 30,0001. a-year, so that the corporation had only 70,000/. a-year f‘orn the tolls, and RO,OOO/. a-year from land., making together about 150,000/. a-year. And how was teat sum expended ? There was a debt of a trillion secured on the revenue of the corporation one-half of which had been spent in purchasing land for the improving and widening of street., the land for which bad been dedicated to the pub lic. The interest of that debt was about 50,0001. a year. The administration of justice in the city amounted to 50,0001. a year, making together 100,000/. a year out of the 150,000/. per ann. income.. Of the balance, about 12 0001. per annum were spent in city improvements, 10,0001. in church and pensions, and 10,000/. for inci dental expenses annually. The last am runt might bo considered large, but the house must bear in mind that one year they hail to leery a hers ; another year to erect a monument to his memory ; a third to receive with be coming splendour and hospitality our sovereign ; a fourth, a foreign prince. The civil government of the city oost about 30,000/. a year, which he thought was not too much for maintaining the hospitality and sp.en dour of the. city. The publie had advanced money to the corporation on the security of the revenuer, and Parliament ought not to abolish that security upon the goo 4 faith of ehich the money was advanced. All that was asked was for the house to deal with the Corporation of Londou in the came way they dealt with Liverpool, to whom they gave compensation. The rights of property depended upon the universality, and when once acquired they no right to investigate this acquisition. The tolls levied on goods corning up the Thames might be uoxison' u t e e t, b u t h e cared not for that. They e° ' were' in without atl theovinera compensation, lrad n o r h i e g hty miAt tobe a d d e o i. p . r t ived f them the politioat regulations contained T in the bill or enlarge them, but send hack the financial part of the bill for further consideration, The C.rporation cf London :11, V ENING, JONE 25, 1858. that subject has borne a r eference not to the principle of self-election as applied to the consthution of some one part of a particular body, but to the principle of self election when re,gariled as the only mesas by which en trance into such a bedy could be obteined. (Hean) If you were to open only bee door into the Council—if y6u were to ray that no person could enter it except by the pleasure of a majority of that body as it was already constituted, and consequently that no person could enter it who did not share the opinions of tee majority—l could well understand that under such a system the grossest abuses would be likely to arise, and that the opinion which once gained the upperband would be likely permanently to retain its predominance. But in the present case we propose a mutual check, a mutual control; we propose that the Indian know ledge and experience of those who constitute a ma jority of the Council should be brought to bear in the selection of now members, while, at the same time, the Crown will exercise that check which it ought to possess upon the inconvenience which would arise if every vacancy were filled up according to the principle of sel;-election. (Hear.) It is said, again, that what we call election is really nomination in disguise. If I entertained that view, the present is not a scheme which I should venture to propose. In the first place, I do not think that because men are themselves nominees, therefore they are to be taken as having no will, no judg ment, no independence of their own, but as willing, whatever their term of office, whatever their personal eminence or character, to fulfil the pleasure of the Minis ter by whom they were first appointed. (Hear.) I do not think that is a danger likely to arise in any case, but it is a danger still less likely to arise when, as in the pre sent instance, even the nominated members of the Ceun cil will Le the creation, not of one, but of many succes sive Ministries. (Hear!) If I aei told that the proposed self. election is virtually to abandon that elective princi ple which the house has sanctioned, my answer is that we were willing—we are willing—to introduce the elec tive principle upon a wider scale if it were only possible to find a fitting and satisfactory constituency. (Hear.) I believe that to have recourse to the method of election as a way of appointment to the Indian Council is the first idea which has entered the mind of every person who has . considered the subject. (Rear.) The eitficul , y which all persons on further consideration have felt is that of con etituting a constituency which would answer the purpose. We have been told that we should have retained matters as they are, and gone back to the Court of Proprietors. I have nothing to say against the ladies and gentlemen who constitute that proprietary body, but I do say that they do not possess any special Indian knowledge, and that even their interest in the good conduct of Indian affairs is indirect and remote. Although it might possi bly be expedient to continue them when they were found in existence as part of a system which you wished to modify by degrees, yet it is a different thing to say, when you are recasting the system altogether, that you will reintroduce into it that which has always been justly considered as one of its most anomalous elements. (lean) We take the resolution to which the committee came the other night as conveying the sense in which it was un doubtedly understood by many of those who voted for it. We believe that those aho supported the resolution did so, not having reference to any special • instituency which was in their minds, but from a desire to protest by their votes against the exclusive and uncontrolled right of appointment being vested in the Crown. (Bear, hear.) I was always of opinion that if the Court of Pro prietors were to be retained at all, it should be so with large additions and extensions. lam free to confess, however, that every day's Experience has convinced rue more and more that the creation of a constituency com posed of those who are connected with works of an in dustrial character in India—for example, the eharehold . ers in railways and other undertakings of that kind — would be to introduce into the Council as element to which some objection might be taken. (Hear.) I say so upon this ground, that whereas a constituency for the election of an Indian Council should in its essence be an elective body only, and should not involve any idea of representation, there is a danger that parsons connected with particular undertakings would bind those whom they elected to act as the representatives, not of India or of England, but of the particular concerns in which they were interested, and to push forward those tinier takings often, no doubt, to the disadvantage of other corks equally pressing and important. (Hear, hear.) Such are the reasons which have induced us, objecting to the principle of e x c l us i ve nom i nat i on , an d desiring to carry out the resolution to which the committee came the other night, to do so by the particular machinery which we now propose. With respect to the proposal of ten years' service or residence in India as a qualifi cation for a majority of the Connell, I have heard it ob jected to upon two grounds. The complaint has been made frequently and publicly, but by those who cannot have read the bill, that the practical effect of it must be to limit the Council to the Indian civil and military services. Now, that is obviously not the case. (Hear, hear.) Oa the other hand, I have heard the objection raised, that to introduce into the Council to the extent of nearly a half men who have no special In dian knowledge or experience would be to turn it to purposes for which it was not intended. My reply is, that in stating that a majority of the Council ought to be moo having Indian experience, our object is, in the first place, to lay down a general principle, and then to establish a maximum beyond which the number of mem bers not connected with India should not in any case extend. We have no objection to the intr.nluction of even a larger proportion of those who have special In dian experience (Rear.) I have received a communi cation from the chairman and deputy•chairman of the Court of Directore, stating that the n.anber of those qualified by service or residence in India should be two thirds instead of one-half. (Hear, hear.) We arc ready to entertain that proposition; and to discuss it fairly iu committee ; and certainly raj own belief is that, whe ther it be expedient to put such a proviso into the act or not, an Indian Council, to be properly constituted, ought to contain that proportion cl men of Indian expe rience and knowledge. (Hear.) There is one provision which has been much canvassed, and on which, no doubt, there is room for great difference of opinion-al mean the prohibition against members of the Council serving in Parliament. It may be to many men an ohjsct of ambi tion to fill at the saute time the position of a member of Parliament and that of a member of the Council, and I do not think that the mere objection that the whole time of a member of the Council is required ought to weigh with us in deciding that point, because, if it applies to a mem ber of the Council, it ought a fortiori to apply to a Se• cretary of State and to all those who are carrying on, with much more labour to themselves, the aeraieistrative business of the conntry. Tbat is not the objection, there fore, upon which I shall rely in maintaining the prohibi tion to which I have alluded. But it seems to us, consi dering the close and confidential position in which these gentlemen will be placed with respect to the Minister, considering also the frequency of Indian discussions in this house, that any man who by his office was a col league of the Minister in the Council, and who might at the same time be an opponent of the Minister in Parliament, would stand in two situations inconsist= ent one with the other, and singularly unsatisfactory as regards him elf. The tenure, of office we propose is a tenure for life. We have considere 1 what objections might arise to various kinds of tenure. Ido not deny that all are liable to some objections. If a short term were proposed, with the power of re-election, then the independence of at least the nominated members would bo entirely destroyed ; and if the members were ap pointed fora long term, then, though the difficulty I Lave just mentioned would be g t rid of, another wou1:1 arise, for men advanced in years and infirm in health might continue in office for one uniform period. Oa the whole I think that the objections aga.ust a tenure for life are lees considerable than . against any other tenure. We propose, with a view of facilitating retire. ment, that a retiring pension shall be alto wed on a large and liberal scale. Time salaries of the members will be 1,2001. a-year each, and after ten years' service the re tiring pension will be 5001. a-year, and after 15 years' service 8001., or two-thirds of the whole unary, after which no further increase will take placs. Io the matter of a retiring pension it is clear that there are two soppo site dangers against which it is necessary to guard, If there should be a retiring pension after a sheet term of years, then you run the risk of what might be called jobbing—namely, of members being induced to retire after a very short service to make room for others. on the one hand, the retirement is to take place after a long-extended service, then you induce men to hold on after their services are no longer valuable. It is nece-- sary to strike the balance, and we propose to s t r ik e it in the manner I have explaiced ; and, whatever retiring allowances should be allotted to the members of the council, it is desirable that they should be entitled to claim them as a matter of right, and not as a matter of favour. With respect to the salaries we do not desire to measure the iiiportanceof the office created by the amount of salary assigned. Those who have served in India, and have retired from that service, generally retire upon a retiring allowance calculated upon a liberal scale ; and the ameuet of the salary assigned to the members of Council is intended much more as wcompen sation to those gentlemen for the additional axpense con sequent on the necessity of, permanently residing in London than as an equivalent in money for the services they are asked to render. In the clauses which follow, matters ariang cut of the amalgamation of the two offices in Cannon-row and Leadenball-street are dealt with. It may be convenient to mention, though it could not well be inserted in the bill, what is the course of proceeding we intend to adopt with respect to the traneac ion of business. The who!e Indian question may be divided among six committees with two members of Council in each, assisted by a head clerk and the establishment. We propose that all correspondence, with an exception here after to be named, shall originate in these committees, and be sent up to the Secretary of State. If the corre spondence is judged by the committees, in the first in stance, or by the Secretary of State, to be of sufficient importance to be laid before the whole Council, it will bo in the power of either of the committees dr of the Secre tary of Siete to submit it to the whole Council ; and we merely decline to state that all the butiliess should be brought before the whole Council, as such a de claration would have the effect of encumbering the whole Council with a mess of routine details. I have heard a complaint that no provision is made for the meet ing of the Council at regular and stated pried , . I think that that is a reasonalcOe objection, and therefore, when the bill goes into committee, I propose to insert a clause to the effect that the Cauncil should meet once a week, unless prevented by urgent necessity. (Hear, hear ) That is to say, that the rule shall bo that the Council shall meet at least once a week— (heat) ;—and the only reason why I did not put this provision in the bill was that by attempting to settle matters of detail by Act of Parliament we run the ri k of tying ourselves down to minute arrangemente which practical experience might afterwards chow the convenience of altering. The question has been put, how far and in what sense is it intended that this Council shall act as a check on the Minister ? I think that on that point the debates which have taken place in this house show the intention and desire of the Qc. vernment. The object is, that the Council shoul•i have a moral iefluence and control e that the Minister's de cision should be, as it is practically now, foal on all matters, but that all the members of Clustcil should be empowered to publicy and formally pretest, and if they disapprove of the course taken by the Minister they may compel him to record his reasons in writing. But lam convinced that there is much more dangeref a Minister leaning too much on his Council than neglecting their advice. Ail the habits, tendencies, and ideas of English life are such as utterly to discountenance public men desiring to assume to themselves authority.and respon sibility beyond that which it imposed on them. I think I am not wrong m saying that a far more prevalent dan ger is that of their desiring to shift responsibility and to throw it on others, Se far from public men seeking to extend their powers, it is much more likely that they would endeavour to develops part of their powers on others. The arrangements I have stated will insure the necessity cf all business, with one exception hereafter to be named, or'ginating with these committee?, where, it will be dealt with by two members of Council for each committee, while any business of importance would afterwards be submitted to the whole Council. I have rrf. rred to a single exception, which sfter much doubt and hesitation we thought it, necessary to make, and it consists in that which relates to the business now nomi nally transacted by the Secret Committed. I say "nominally," because we have beard it again and again publicly asserted that the Secret Committee is a delta sion, and that the real power is actually vested in the President of the Board. A , regards this . part of the question, there were three couvee which might have been adopted—either to throw open the whole business with • out exception to the whole Council, or to elect tvo or three members to constitute a secret committee, or to seat a power in the Minister to deal with cer tain matters on his own responsibility. The objet tion to the first course is, I think, obvious. The practical effect of throwing open all the business to the council would be to produce considerable delay in cases of emergency. The second course, that of creating a Secret Committee, who without the power of controlling should have the right of being consulted by the Minis ter, appears very objectionable. If the Minister were to choose the members of the Secret Committee, then the cheek on him would be practically &usury ; and if the Secret Committee were to be appointed by the Council, then there would be this inconsistency—that the Minis ter would be compelled to accept as colleagues those with whose selection he has nothing to do. The plan we have to, propose is to vest the right in the Minister, in case of necessity, to -deal with a certain plass of busi ness on his own authority, Ir seems io be an anomaly , and something worse, if you greatly increase the respon sibility of the Minister to greatly diminish his power. Though the bill does not make it compulsory on the Minister to create a Secret Committee, it is optional for him to do so ; but the bill leaves him the power to trust to those in whom he has confidence ; and any man, how ever wild and rash, would shrink from that vast increase of responsibility which he would necessarily acquire if, knowing that he is provided with councillors in whom he might coOde, he in any great emergency acted with out reference to them. In one word, though there may be occasions when it may be necessary for a Minister to act on his own authority, yet, in my judgment, those oc• casiens ought to be rare and exceptional. If a Minister were habitually, and in cases not urgently requiring secrecy, to act upon his own authority, and without con sulting his Council—that is to say, if he were to extend his authority beyond its present limits, through the me dium of the Secret Committee, that would be not only a gross abuse of ghis power, but a violation of the spirit and meaning of the Act. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the question of finance, it was provided in the bill of the noble lord (Palmerston) that no increase of ex penditure should take place without the consent of four members of the Council. In omitting that provision we certainly did not do so from ignorance of the .perils which may arise if an uncontrolled discretion of increas ing expenditure be conferred upon a minister, nor from _any desire to assume that power to ourselves. But it appeared to us that such a provisiOn was totally inade quate for the purpose aimed at. We thought a check of that nature would be illusory rather than real, and that being illusory, itwould serve only as a screen, and would prevent the applioa' on of that other and more efficient kind of control upon which we rely. It seemed to us that the object would be better attained by that on which I think Parliament has a right to insist, and which Parlia ment has in its own hands to secure—namely, the regu lar, the periodical, and the minute publication of Indian accounts. (Hear.) Moreover, it will be borne in mind that both by the hill < f the noble lord and by that the contents of which 1 am now stating, any member of the Council has the power of protesting formally against any measure to which he is opposed. Now, undoubtedly, finance would never be compris e d i n th e class of busi ness which would require secrecy. Tue Council must be consulted upon it. Any member, as I have said, has the power of protesting. If Parliament chooses to call for such protest it may easily be made public, and in that manner there is, as it seems to me, afar more real and effectual control than could be given by a mere provision that no increase of expenditure shall take place unless the minister has the support of four members of a coun•• cil, come of whom are named by himself. With regard to those important provisions in the bill which deal with the Indian army, there is one point on which I think it right to make a clear statement, because lam afraid it is not very clearly set forth in the bill. I noticed only to day that, one of the clauses relating to this subject was drawn in rather au obscure manner. Now, we propo e that. the civil service of India shall, as before, remain open to competition, acid in addition to that we propose wholly and ueressrvedly to open to competition what are called the scientific branches of the military service. As to the other cadetships—those in the non-scientific branch of the service—we propose that a small propor tion, one-tenth, should ge to t .ns of civil - or mili tary servants in India who may be considered deserving of that To the remainii•g military patronage we have applied as riearly as possible the precedent of the state of things which now prevails. Iu dealing with thin branch of the subject our general wish was to continue for the present, with as few modifications as possible, the system which now exists. I say for the present, be cause it appears to us, as it has probably appeared to all woo are jute:este(' in Indian affairs, that circumstances wholly independent of those measures which are before the house—wholly independent of the course of legisla tion which we have been pursuing during the present session—independent, I may almost say, of the question of the continuance c-f the Company, may require an en-. tire reorganisation of the Indian army, or at all events the native portion of it. Now, any attempt at this mili tary reorganisation would be for the present premature; and we therefore propose that the whole subject should be investigated by means of a commission, to consist of 12 members—three of these members to be officers of the Indian army, three of them officer's of the Qeeen'e army who have served in India, three to be civilian gentleman. of eminence, and the remaining three official personages who are principally concerned in this matter, viz , ttte Commander-in• Chief, the Secretary of State for War, and the President of the B tard of Control. To that commis sion, so constituted, we intend to nfer an it quiry, the heads of which include the relative proportions of the European and the native force, the question whether the European army should be local or one for general service, whether exchanges from one branch to another are loos- Bible, and generally on what terms the transfer af the dom.- patty'e army to the Crown should take place. Pending that inquiry it is not our wish to antieioate the result which may flow from it; but thi s I sa y 'freely and ear nest'y, that I am cer ta,la Perlia,men wiil consent to no arrangement—and I can answer for - the Geiser/talent that they will consent to none—whicb, however plausible cr convenient it tedg , ,t ppear, should have the effeet of render ng entrance into, or promoion in, the Indian army mere difficuit than it now is to te'ent and to mei i t unaided by patronage, or Mitch shoald tutroducs int that army Parliamentary or )-'1 3r influences injurious to its efficiency. (Cheers.) Toe whole question, however, must necessarily come before Parliament again, and, until it does, our object is to maintain things nearly as they ape at present, with such modifications only as may relieve us from the necessity of making further altera tions without' full and ample time for consideration. tllear, hear.) There is one clause in the bill, the 29th, which we find both in the noble lord's hill and in that introduced by the present Government. I mean the provision which vests in the Governor-General the appointment of the members of the council in India. I cannot but admit that that proposition, although on the one hand it was capable of defence, has on the other hand been received with apprehension and alarm by many persons whose opinions on such a subject are en titled to the highest consideration. (Rear, hear.) They argue that a Governor-General or the Governor of a Presidency even at present has a very large and un limited power in his hands, and that it would be dangerous to increase that power by making his col leagneejat the Council •dependent .on his will. (Hear.) I do not propose to abandon the clause, but I wish to say distinctly that I have retained it in the bill only in order that it may receive a full and fair discussion, we holdiog ourselves at liberty, if the sense of the house and the judge - rent of those hest conversant with the subject should be adverse to our proposal, to reconsider, and if necessary, to alter the clause. (Cheers.) With respect to the question of finance, as I apprehend that will be fully discussed in committee, I shall Fay nothing more at present than tkat I have heard nothing which ha s l e e me to believe that these whose fortunes depend upon the security of Indian finance will have that security in any the slightest degree diminished. (Rear, hear.) There is a provision in the bill for eendieg out a corn mission to investigate the financial state of India. Now, I believe that such an inquiry is very necessary and very advisable ; but it has been urged with great force that any investigation of that kind ought to come through the Governor-General; that it ought to take place with his sanction, in deference to his au thority, and should not, as it were, be a power set up to check and control him. (Hear, hear.) On that ereued I shall withdraw the clause in questi en , and communicate with the Indian Government as to the beet method by which the same end may be attained, (Rear, hear.) These are the provisions of the bill. I will onl sty in conclusion that I think we rue some risk of exaggerat ing the importance for good or for evil of legi lotion of this kind carried on in this house. What we call a bill for the future Government of India is really only a bill to provide what we believe will be a more effsetive inea.• sure for supervision and control at a distance (1 the Go vernmeet of India. No doubt elthetivo supervision and control are valuable. and even indispensable; but, do what you witl heie, the real stress, thtereel pressure will be upon the Government in India—(hear, hear)—and even there, where the pressure is greatest, I believe the Government of India must depend, not upon any inge nious machinery which you can contrive for its work ing, but upon the living energy of able and wr l!-chosen men whom you must, to meet the varying and unfore seen circumstances which will from time to time arise, invest with large authority, and to whom you must give an ample and a generous confidence. (Beer.) Ido net propose this bill as a measure to remedy all the abuses and grievances of which complaints have b !en made with regard to our Indian administration. Impose it simply for what it 13—as a reform which, I believe, will lead to other reforms— (hear, hear)—and without which those other reforms could not bo so easily or conveniently carried on.. I propose it as a - necessary and desira ble simplification of a system of government which all persons acknowledge to be complicated and cumbrous, and es the rectification cf an anomaly which has en dured too long, and which at the present day can serve no useful purpose. I propose it as the substitution for a provi,ional form of government of a more permanent and I believe, more salutary form of administration, and as a measure which will vest the government of that great dependency of England, India, in the English Crown, and will place it wider ;the direct authority en English Minister, responsible to this house and to the public opinion of England. (Cheers.) The noble lord concluded by moving that the bill be read a second time. Mr. BRIGHT did not rise for the purpose of opposing the sec-md reading of the bill. On nthe contrary, if any hon. member thought proper to dividas the hens° he would vote with the noble lord. Re must say, however, that there were a geed many clauses in the bill to which be entertained serious objections. Some of them would, be hoped, be amended as the bill passed through commit tee ; Lott if that were not the case he could only hope that, as the Bill of 1853 was abandoned in 1858, within the next five years the House of Commons would take s nne further steps with regard to this question, with the view of simplifying the government of India as carried on in England. He wished to take this opportunity of making some observations upon the general question of Indian government, which it might have been out of place to make during the discussion of the various reso lutions that had been agreed to by the house. He thought it must have struck every boo, member that, while two Governments bad proposed great chaeges with regard to the government of India, ne good case had really been made out for such cbauges in the speeches of the noble lord and the right hon. gentleman by whom those bills had been introduced. (Hear, and a laugh.) That opinion, he knew, would meet with a response from two or three hon. gentlemen on that (the Opposition) side of the house. (Hear.) It had occurred to him when the noble lord at the head of the late Government introduced his bill —and he made the observation 'when the present Chancel lor of the Exchequer brought fcrtvard his measure— that if the house knew no more of the question than they learned from the speeches of those right hoe, gen tlemen they could not form any clear notion .why it was proposed to overthrow the East India Company. The honourable member for Guildford (Mr. Mangles) had expressed a similar opinion several times during the pro• grass of the discussion. The right honourable mem ber for Carlisle had said that the East India Com pany was dealt with in the manner in which animals in tended for sacrifice were treated in Eastern countries and ancient times,—that they were decked with garlands when they were led out for immolation. That was true ; but it did not therefore follow that the house was quite right in the course it was taking. It must be clear that the moment the House of Commons met this session there was only one course which the then Government could adopt with reference to this question. A feeling existed throughout the country—he believed he might say it was universal—that for a long time past the go vernment of India had not been a good government ; that grave errors—if not grievous crimes—had been committed in that country. He thought the conscience of the nation had been touched on this question, and they came by a leap, as it were—by an irrepressible in stinct— to the conclusion that the East India Company must be abolished, and that another and, as the nation hoped, a better government should be established for that country. There was a general impression, arising from past discussion in Parliament, that the in dustry of the people of India bad been grievously neglected ; that there was great reason for comnlaint with respect to the administration of justice; and that with regard to the wars entered into by the Indian Go vernment there was much of which the people of Eng land had reason to be ashamed. (Hear.) It was said that these faults were to be attributed to the Bard of Con trol ; but he (Mr. Blight) had never defended the Board of Control. He, believed everything the East India Company bad said of the Board of Control—to its dis credit—(a laugh)—and he believed that everything the Board of Control had said to the discredit of the East India C impany was perfectly true. (Cheers and laugh ter.) He hoped his boo. friend (Mfr. Mangles) would not require any further expression of opinion upon that point. (A. laugh. There was also a general impression that the expenditure of the East India Government was excessive, and it had been proved before more than one committee that the taxes imposed upon the people of India were onerous to the last degree. These subjects were dis cussed in 1853, at which time, in his opinion, the change now proposed ought to have been effected. Subsequently the calamitous events of 1857 and 1858 occurred, and the nation came at once to the conclusion—a conclusion which ho thought no disinterested person could resist— that it was impossible that India and its vast population could any lender be retained under the form of govern ment which had existed up to this period. If, then, a change was inevitable, the qu es ti on was h ow it should be accomplished and what should be done. He thought it was quite clear the course the noble lord had pursued was right—viz., that of insisting that duri ng thi s pre sent sessi and without delay, the found at i o n o f a ll reform in the n, government of India should be commenced at home, because they could not take a single step with regard to any real and permanent improvement in the Indian government until they reformed what he might call the basis of that government by the changes effected in this country. What, then, was the change which was proposed, and which ought to be made-I For his own part, in considering these questions, he could not alto gether approve the bill now b e fo r e th e house. What they wanted with egard to the government of India was that which in common conversation was called "a little more daylight." They wanted more simplicity and more re sponsibility. (Hear.) He (Mr. Bright) bad objected to the scheme originally proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer because it did not provide these requisites. That i eiemirso closely resembled the system they were about to overthrow that he (Mr. Bright) could not bring himself to regard iv favourably. In considering the sub ject before Parliament met be asked himself this sues tion:—" Suppose there had never been an East India . Company or any such corporation —suppose India bad . teen conquered by the forces of the Crown, commanded by generals acting under the authority of the Crown— how should •ne then have proposed to govern distant do. minions of vast extent, and with a population that could scarcely be counted?" He believed such a system of go vernment as hid heretofore existed would never have been established, and if such a system had not existed he was convinced that no Ministry would have proposed the plea now submitted to the house. He thought the Go: eminent would have been placed in the bands of a Secretary of State, with his secretaries, clerks, and staff of officers, or of a small board, so small as to pie vent responsibility from being diffured and divided, if not actually destroyed. He suspected that the only rea son why the country or Parliament would be disposed to approve the large Council proposed was that they had seen something like a Commit, formerly of 24, and sub sequently of 18 members, and be believed there was sum ,thing like timidity on the part of the house, and probably on the part of the Government, in making so peat e change as he sugg. steel to the simple plan which would probably have existed had no such body as the, East India Company ever been established. He was willing to admit candidly that if the Government of India athotno as greatly-siniplified it would be necessary that very important changes should be made in the Go vernment of Lydia. (blear, hear.) lie agreed with the nOble lord (Stanley) that the representatives of the Crown in India must have power as well as responsi bilty ; that they should be enabled to deal with emer gencies— (hear, hear)—and to settle the hundred and thousand questions that must arise hourly among 100,000,000 of people, without sending 10,000 miles to this country to ask questions which ought to be settled at once by some competent authority en the spot. (Hear, hear.) There were two modes of governing India, and the hon. member for Leominster (Mr. Willoughby), who had been a very distinguished servant of the East India Company, bad publicly expressed his views upon this question. He (Mr. Bright) had been very much struck with a note attached to the published report of that speech, referring to the multifarious duties dis charged by the directors of the East India Company; That note stated that "A despatch may be received containing 60, or 100, or 200 cases; and the despatch, in itself voluminous, is rendered more 83 by collections attached to it, containing copies of all former correspondence on the subject or subjects, of all letters written thereon by various local officers, and all papers relating thereto. There has not tong since been in the Rev-mere Depart ment a despatch with 16 263 pages of collections. In 1845 there was one in the same depaitment with 46,000 pages, and it was stated that Mr. Canning some years since in the House of Commons mentioned a military despatch to which were attached 13,511 pages of collec tion." The hon. gentleman did not say in his speech anybody at the It:dia.-house ever read all these things. (Hear.) It was quits clear that if the directors were to p-etend to go through a waggon-load of documents coining to Leadenhalbstreet every year it must only be a pretence, 'and that if they wanted to persuade the House tbat they gave attention to only one-tenth part of that matter they must think the Ilcuse more credo- Ima than they were in matters of that kind. (Cheers.) That was one mode of governing India. It was the mode which had been adopted and the mode which had failed. If they were to have the details settled here be was perfectly certain they would have no good govern ment in India. (Hear, hear.) He bad alluded on a firmer occasion to a matter which occurred in a com mittee. A gentleman who was examined stated that be had undertaken to tir.iw a more wholesome beer and quite as good as that exported for the supply of the troops, somewhere in the P. eaidency of Madres, for one sixth of the price paid by Government for that exported to India from England ; that the experiment was com pletely succueseful ; that the memorandum or record with regard to it was sent home, no doubt forming part of the thuusands of pages iu the collection ; and that it was Luried in the heap in which it came, because for years nothing wan heard of a proposition which would have Eased the Government a very large amount annu: ally, and opened a new industry Co the population and capital of India. (Bear, Lear.) He believed that this Eya'.ern of government was one of delay and dis appointment —one, actually, of impossibility —one wit ich could by no means form a complete theory of govern ment as held by any persons in the House (hear, hear) and that the other, the simpler system, which be would wich the House to undertake, was one ac ti on , progress, and results, with regard to India, such as they had never yet seen and never would see anti there was a complete simplification of the Indian 'go vernnoeut in this country. (flew.) He came to the clues tiou—and it was for this question that he wished princi7 __-r-~