The Sun. — London, England, 1829-02-20 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. was then made to create a riot, and in consequence a por tion of the names was torn off the petition, upon which the Mayor requested the gentlemen who superintended the signing of the petition to withdraw it, and begged that it might he stated, if necessary, that it had been done at his reepeest, to prevent any further disturbance. Having said thus much, he would read the petition to their Lordships; but he could not do so without expressing once more to the Noble Duke (Wellington) and to his Noble and Right Hon. Colleagues, his utmost confidence in them, and without assuring them that they might depend upon his most zealous exertion. in support of the view which they had taken, and which they had stated to Parliament in the most candid manner. At the same time he wished tee rte mark apon the great necessity there Wet iliit a qilettion of this nature ehoold be fairly niid Folly discussed, and he therefore begged to nnkreat the House, and more especially the Rev. Bench of Bishops, in the same reepectful manner as hn had done in the course of the previous Ses sion, on the occasion of the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts, to give him ate opporttittity of bearing his testimony to the tome Wen n. ri ondetation as had been displayed on thet leol`Conibto As to those Noble Lords who mnitetained an opinion contrary to his on this en.b!ent, be gave them full credit for the sincerity of their opinion ; but he must be allowed to observe, that i^ '.lnlltg what they believed to be their duty on the baasion, they I ought to consider the way in osh!cl's they were to perform that duty, and not tutiprite that by alarming the public they could ptsetitke any good. Argument alone in such a Cane tettild be the right mode of proceeding, while, ley Sdolent speeches being made in that House, and going forth from that house to the public, a ferment would he pro duced, the effeet of which no one could foresee.—(Hear.) —lle could not help speaking strongly on this point, he satire he had heard it explained by a Noble Lord (Col chester) in the course of his speech, that this measure would endanger the succession of his family to the Crown. It had been said that the admission of the Catholics to power would destroy the right of the House of Brunswick to the Throne. Good God ! could any one believe in such a doctrine ?—( Hear, hear.)—He should certainly have taken the opportunity of answering such an insinua tion on an an earlier occasion, had not the way in which a Noble Earl (Grey) and a Noble Baron (Holland) an swered it rendered it useless fur him to attempt it, as he could have only repeated what they had said.—(Hear.) — Without, therefore, saying anything further on the subject, he flung away the opinion, because he knew it to be incor rect.--(Hear.)—With respect to anything further that had been alleged in opposition to the measure, he would just point out that the very Noble Lords who urged it were asking 0!I the right hand and on the left, what really 11 , 1!3 to be done ; and it would thereftere be as well that they should wait, and know really what was to be before them before they decided against it.—( Hear, hear.)—His Royal Highness then concluded by reading the petition at length. The Bishop of BRISTOL said, that having heard what had just been stated, he could not help thinking that his Royal Highness had been misinformed ; and as it was also right that that House should lie made acquainted with the sentiments of so important and so populous a city as Brie to, on this subject, he would trouble their Lordships with a few words. Before he quitted Bristol, there was a meet ing convened in every parish, with, he believed, hut one exception ; the general disposition evinced at these meet ings was to petition Parliament not to grant any further concession to the Roman Catholics. In these meetings he had taken no part whatever, hut, on the contrary, had cautiously abstained from so doing. One clergyman had come to him, and stated that his season for not consenting to a meeting was, because he did not think it right to im pose the expence of such a meeting upon the parish. From the accounts which he had received from his own family, since his arrival in town, and from the clergy who were present, it appeared that the spirit which pervaded it was mist cordial and united. Ile had had the ho sour of presenting the petition then agreed upon to their Lordships, anti had accompanied it with some °beer vations as to his own sentiments, which had been unfairly stated in several of the papers. Previous to the Meeting, Mr. Daniel, one of the oldest Magistrates of the city of Bris tol, stated it to be his wish to collect the sentiments of the public on the question. At the beginning there was an attempt to put down the colours which were exhibited at one of the churches, and which had been displayed as a general expression of the joy that was felt, with the excep tion of a few individuals, who were disappointed on seeing how hopeless their interference was, and who, on express ing their wish to have another Meeting, were told that they were welcome. In the petition whieli he had pre sented, there, were twenty-five pages filled with names, and he therefore certainly thought that he had a might to assert that it was most namerously signed. With respect to the measure itself, there never had been a more unani mous feeling entertained, from the apprehension that it must tend to increase the mischief of Ireland, the present unhappy state of which was owing to the Catholics, and that, instead of conferring a benefit on the Empire, it would be attended by the most ruinous consequence , . One great result of it would be to put Catholic Members into Parliament ; and as the Catholic interest would na turally be supported by those Members, the effect must ne cessarily lie injurious to the Protestant Constitution. For himself he begged to declare on every point his detesta tion of the Roman Catholic religion, and his belief that the proposed measure was one of the most dangerous that ever was projected for the safety of the Protestant Constitution. His Royal Highness the Duke of SUSSEX, in expla nation, begged to remind the Right Rev. Prelate, that, in the statement he had made, he had purposely abstained from any reasoning on the subject, because he did not think that that was the time to talk about it. When the time came, if the Right Rev. Prelate still wished to battle the point, he (the Duke) should be very happy, though he was not very strong in theology, to attempt to be a gla diator on the occasion, in the hopes of convincing him. With respect to the petitions, lie again stated that there were several names three times repeated ; while such was far from being the case in the petition which he had the honour of presenting; or if one name had been intruded, it had been purposely with the view of producing confu sion ; for it was right that he should inform their Lord ships, that the very origin of the riot of which he had ' T oken. was froth the circumstance of a man coming where the petition lay for signature, and signing it after ROMAN CATHOLICS. the object of it had been fully explained to him, and then, His Royal Highness the Duke of SUSSEX presented a half an hour afterwards, returning and stating that he did petition from the City of Bristol, in f a v our o f the Rumen not mean to sign the petition ; iu consequence of which Catholics. The petition was signed by 1700 persons, in a struogle took place, and a portion of the sign itures was support of the measure which had been proposed by his teen off. 11ejeete's Ministers. There had been no occasion on which, The petition was then ordered to he laid on the table. he had experienced so much pleasure as in presenting the Hie itoyal Highness the Duke of CUMBERLAND—I petition lee hell in his hand, as he perfectly agreed in the can aesure youir Lordships that I never felt more unwilling whole of its contents. lie also thought that the Noble to trespass on your attention than on the present occasion, Duke at the head of the Administration, and the Adnti- and nothing but the duty I feel I owe to your Lordeleips— nietration itself, deserved leis Lest thanks for bringing for- to the country—and to myself, could have made use stool ward a measure which must tend to the tranquillity and up on the present occasion. But, my Lords, I have always happiness of the empire.—(Hear, hear.)—ln introduchee, been willing to Teak out on this subject, and ever shall be, this petition to their Lordship., it was his duty to explain for I think it a duty I owe to the country to let it know how it lead been got up—as well as the pro -tress of it, and what my feelings are. It shall no longer be said that lam the circumstances under which it appeared ; for, as to the this thing or that, but shall be distinctly known what I am. number and property of those who had signed it, and as It is piddle', believe me, my Lords, to differ from my Noble to the order aryl regularity with which it had been con- F r i en d (the Duke of Wellington), with whom I have so ducted, it was very conspicuous. It was his intention to l ong been united ire the bonds of private friendship. But give their Lordships the facts, without any remarks of his cannot change an opinion which I conscientiously think to own, because he did not think that that was the fit Upper- be right ; and more especially, my Lords, when the pies tunity for doing so ; although he must say, that theme had Lion is, as it undoubtedly is in the present case, neither been another i setition got up in the same place, in a man- more nor less than this—is England to be a Protestant or nor which it ought not to have been ; fur although it a popimit . country ?—(Loud cheers. )—For, my Lords, was admitted :that those who opposed the object for the very moment we admit one Roman Catholic into this which the Meeting had been called should lee present, House or into the other House of Parliament, I main they were not allowed to speak on the occasion ; fain that this becotnes not a Protestant Parliament. — and when a n Amendment was moved, the person (Cheers.) —I have carefully and attentively viewed this who occupied the Chair on the occasion, said that question every way in the world in which it leas been con it was contrary to the purport of the meeting, and !hat it sitiered ; and the result is, that I never will give my con therefore could not be put ; it was, however, e n th e i r sen t e ith e r to a Roman Catholic Peer sitting in this House, power to r e tire, and meet elsewhere. Now, with respect or to a Roman Catholic Member sitting in the other to the other p e tition, it had b een st a ted in another place House, or to any Roman Catholic being a Minister of the that it had originated from the King's Speech ; but he Crown, or to a Roman Catholic Lord Lieutenant of Ire must see., that whoever stated that was in error, as the lend, or to any Roman Catholic holding any office that d etes would prove. The meeting itself was proposed six ma y g i ve him p o wer to injure the Established Church. In weeks prior to the meeting of Parliament, and the requie stating my opinions, I mean to sleeve no hostility to his sition itself was signed on the sth, the very day on which Majesty's Government. No man can respect the Noble Perli uncut met—ergo, that petition was not formed upon Duke more than Ido ; and I am quite convinced that in the King's Speech. With respect to the numbers by doing what he is going to do, it will cost him a great deal which it was signed, he might observe that these haul been of painful feelieg ; but as an honest man I feel it inv duty obtained in a curious way; notwithstanding the anxiety to state openly my opinions, and I trust that your Lord there was to show a great number of names, still there ships will excuse me fur detaining you while I repelled the ought to he no one whose name • had been signed to a insinuations which it was necessary I should no longer suf former petition of a similar nature; but in the list of the ler to go unnoticed.(Cheers.) clergy who signed the petition, he understood that they Earl GREY—I rise, my Lords, to say, that having were signed twice and even three times over, through the heard the Noble and Illustrious Duke state, that while lie medium of parish meeting... He therefore cautioned their was convinced the immure about to be introduced by his Lordships how they trusted to the numbers—not that I.e f Majesty's Government would cost them a great deal of was one of those who objected to the right of petitioning painful feeling, Me felt it his duty, as a conscientious man, in any sway; but he objected to an impression being to declare that his own opinions on this question are en conveyed that the number was so great, when they were I tirely unchanged. Ido sincerely lament that they should virtually the same persons signior over again. The •beso ; because those measures do appear to nee to be in a persons who proposed the Amendment, finding that they direction to promote, as I firmly believe, the best and most . were not permitted to persevere in it, called a meeting vital interests of the country. I did not rise, however, themselves, and applied to the Mayor for permission my Lords, for this purpose only, for I wish to make some to place their petition in the Exchange, the other lying remarks on one sentiment which the Noble and Illustrious for signature in the Guildhall : the Mayor, who, he tun- I Duke expressed. The Noble and Illustrious Duke says, elerstood, behaved most impartially and honourably, gave ! the question is neither more nor less than this, whether his consent to this proposition, and in the course of a few I this shall be a Protestant or a Papist country ?—(Cries of !•-• liourt—in fact, on the Thursday and the Friday—the tome- " Hear, hear," from both sides.) Nov, my Lords, Ido her of p,idies subscribed aumuited W 1,700, M attcuipt deny this proposition. (Great chem.) if in any possible HOUSE OF LORDS.-(LAST NIGHT.) The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat at five minutes past Five o'clock. Lord ELDON presented petitions from several parishes 'ii Denbigh, against further eloicessinns, and from other darts in England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland, to the amount of sixteen, against Emancipation. In presenting a 4writion from Dromore, Ireland, lie requested that it should read, bet in consequence of some irregularity it tops :1: - 'rwartis withdrawn. The Nohle Lord stated, that he had also a petition which he was totally at a loss to know avhat to do with. It w a s e, petition signed by ladies, (Great laughter.)--He should enquire whether, according to the forms of tire House, ladies were excluded as peti tioners. If not, he should certainly do himself the bur i a l r of presenting their petition. Lord KING observed, that the petitioners were proba bly uld ladies.--(A laugh, ) Lord ELDON observed that he belirved there were some of them who were advanced in years, but lie had no doubt that they had much restve good sense and sound knowledge of the Constiteition of the country than some de scendants of Chaneellors.—(Great Lord TEYNHAM presented a petition 1-, ;n a parish in Wicklow, in favour of Ernancipatir.rt, to which he professed Liamif ready to give his support. The Bishop of EXETER presented petitions from parishes in Deem, against the Catholic Claims. The ruts! of LIMERICK presented petitions in (amok' of that Catholic claims, and praying for a repeal the Vestry and Sub-letting Acts, from two isatithes in the county of Limerick. The Noble Lord . .7tlll, he had been intrusted with a petition from the Corporals of the North Cork Militia, in reference to the reduction of the Militia staff, which had been announced from the War-office. He did nut know wheth er it wou ld b e regu l ar to present t hi s petition, as the subject was not at present before their Lordships, After a few words from Lord anox, the petition was laid on the table. 'The Duke of RICHMOND moved for a return re specting sheep and lamb's wool. The Noble Duke also presestted a petition against seeding men on board men of war for smuggling. Lord VERULAM prostrated a petition from a parish in ,Stafford against Emancipation. Lord LOR fON presented petitions from Sligo, Lime rick, and Donegal, against Concessions, The Earl of LONGFORD presented a petition from the Protestants of Dublin, Iri the first place, the petition prayed the Roman Catholic Association might be sup pressed; secondly, that the House should hear in mind the state of the forty shilling freeholders ; ani in the third place, it prayed that political concessions should not be made to the Boman Catholics.—(Hear, hear.)—When the most distinguished Prelates and Clergymen of Ireland had put their names to this petition, the Noble Lord could not but hope that the Honse weuld not grant further concessions. The Marquis ni BUTE presented three petitions from parishes in 'Waterford, in favour of the Catholics. He could not express the high sense of gratificatio❑ he felt at the intimation made to this House by his Majesty. He had expressed his opinions not many months ago on this subject, and should therefore occupy but very little time at the present moment. He should be most happy to see this measure in fxrour of the Catholics, pass their Lordships' House ) with such securities as his Majesty's Ministers slwaild think fit for the safety of the Church of England. But he trusted that they would not ask for securities beyond what the Protestants of this country had a right to demand, and which every reasonable Roman Catholic would not willingly grant. He bad heard with astonishment doubts thrown upon the motives of the Noble Duke, in bringing forward this measure. Li his judgment, those motives were the most plain and generous. As far as support could go, lie felt bound to offer his best assist ance, and he tendered his best thanks to the Noble Duke for the manner in which he had brought forward this measure, Lord PLUNKETT presented a petition from 2000 of the Roman Catholic inhabitants of Cork, praying for the removal of all civil and religious disabilities. Lord CLIFDEN presented about a dozen petitions from the Ronssu Catholics of various parts of Ireland to the sante effect, and against the Vestry and Sub-letting Acts. The Marquis of ANGLESEA presented seven petitions from the Roman Catholics of several parts of Ireland, praying for unqualified Emancipation, and numerous peti tions against the Sub-letting and Vestry Acts. The Duke of DEVONSHIRE presented four petitions from parishes in the county of Waterf.rd, in favour of the Catholic Claims. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition from the Minister and Protestant Dissenters assembling for divine worship in a Chapel at Hackney, expressing, in earnest terms, their gratitude for the intimation conveyed to the House by his Majesty's speech u 4 in the subject of Emancipation, and praying for the reino,asl of all religious disabilities. The Noble MarquLs also presented a great number of petitions from Roman Catholics of Ire land, in favour of their claims. state of the country, I thought there could be a suspicion-- to the Constitution, 'and that nobody could be called to the if there was likely to be a chance that the measures about House of Peers, or elected to the House of Commons, hold to he proposed by his Majesty's Ministers could have any ing the religious principles of the King, and therefore dis tendency to subvert the Protestant Constitution of this pesed to forward his views. Not aide to attack the power country, I can assure the Noble and Illustrious Dake there of the Throne, in order to effect their purpose, th e y t oo k could not be a more firm and determined opponent of them the circuitous course of infringing on the liberties of the than myself ; but that, I think, is not a true character people. When the Revolution came, which I regard with of them. In my opinion, they are directly contrary to t as much reverence and affection as the Noble and Learned the description giv e n of them by the Noble and Illus- Lord does himself, what did the great men concerned in trious Duke. They are measures, in my opinion, effectual that transaction do? Did they say the laws of Charles the to the preservation of that very Protestant Constitution Second against the Roman Catholics sloonid he eternal and which the Noble and Illustrious Duke thinks himself thus Immutable? No; but they did say, with the Caine view early and ionuediatel caned upon to defend. (Hear, with which they had before passed those laws, when they !tear.) The question is not whether this shall he a Pro- could carry nothing more effectual, that the possessor of testant or a Popish country, but whether it shall be a the throne should unalterably be a Protestant. lam sure divided or a united Empire—(Cheers.)—wiaither we shall I need not ask the Noble Duke at the head of the Govern combine all classes of his Majesty's subjects in common ment, whether in the measures he will submit to this bonds of affection and loyalty to the Crown, or whether House, he intends to interfere with the Protestantism of we shall convert into Flea thuce independetit spit its in the throne ; it would be ridiculous to put the qu e stion. Irchied, Who, if admitted to the enjoyment of their then, no such intention exists, as it certainly does eat rights, would be ready to maint-in the Constitution, not, how dots the Noble and Learned Lord's observation which the Noble and Illustrious Duke supposes they would tipple, when he said that these measures would shake the subvert, against all its enemies (hear, hear) ; for if ever foundations of the Constitution as it was settled at the Re this Empire should be dPiided by civil or religious dissen- volution? The true and essential principle of the Re •ionoe thet Will be the point in which our greatness and volution was the same by which, from the beginning of ,'rength, or our decline and weakness, will be manifested : the Constitution, its supporters were always animated, there would be the danger, in any future contest, that and which bad given the same tincture to every act done would shake the power or the state and that glotions Con- to uphold it. The Government anti Constitution of this stitution itself to pieces, which it is the object of its to country are, and have always been, essentially repreaenta uphold. I regret deeply that the Noble and Illustrious tive, and the people of every description have a full anti Duke should feel it necessary to resist, when the country is free right to be represented, unlese they are incapacitated blessed with peace and prosperity, the happy settlement of by some necessity. Not only hive they a right to seats in a question which has so long divided the opinions of Par- Parliament, but they are entitled to enjoy all the rights liament and the country, and which, having so long en- that belonged to them before they entered into society, by olangered our Constitution, may at last be settled in so coin- which Act they were all confirmed, unless such as were plete and proper a manner, and with such satisfaction to excepted by a clear necessity, or by some general rule of all parties. (Cheers.) expediency. It appears to me, that the Noble and Learned The Earl of ELDON—In discussing this question, I feel Lord has fallen upon the exceptions, and confounded them great pain in differing, as I do, so widely from many with the principle itself. At the Revolution our ancestors Noble Lords whom I personally respect ; but I must re- did not feel themselves perfectly safe. They did not re peat what I ventured to state on the first day of the Ses- peal the 30th of Charles the Second, because they had sion—that it is my determined resolution not to relax from not got rid of a Pretender. The Protestant Government any endeavour I con make to prevent Roman Catholics might have been overturned by a Popish Successor, and from sitting in this House, or the other House, or holding the time was not yet come, therefore, to repeal those laws. any executive office of responsibility. I thank the Noble 13itt I ask, if the circumstances of these lairs being so and Illustrious Duke for the speech which he has ad- retained, and the history of their enactment do not prove dressed to the House, and in which he has only done that they were so left as an anxious mark of the opi justice to the preservation of that principle which has nion of the legislators of that day, that they would placed iris family on the Throne, at the sante time that he not suffer them to be incorporated with the principles has refuted those insidious anti scandalous reports which of the Cons"itutien. Where, for example, is the pas are abroad.—(Cheers.). —While I entirely agree with the sage in the Bill of Rights which says, that the laws Noble and Illustrious Duke, I cannot believe that the against the admission of Roman Catholics into Parliament Noble Lords over the way—the descendants of those shall be perpetual, and that the oaths and declarations shall Whigs who, at the Revolution, were all for a Protestant still subsist? It declares the possession of the Throne to King, a Protestant House of Lords, and a Protestant being perpetually and unalterably to a Protestant King ; House of Commons—these Noble Lords, I say, who are in- but it nowhere says that the oaths and declarations enacted deed, the issue of the loins of those 'Whigs, lout who dot not to exclude the Roman Catholics shall be continued. I tun appear to inherit any of the opinions of their ancestors—l not to be told, then, that these measures will go to shak e cannot believe that any of them suppose that I am the foundations of the Constitution ; but I ought not to of opinion that, through the introduction of one or detain your Lordships with this empty diecnssion, in which two Roman Catholic Members into the House of Lords, I have only groundless assertions to combat, though I can er Commons, or one or two Roman Catholics becoming not refrain from adding one or two facts which will deci- Ministers of the Crown, we shall exchange a I'ro- sively confirm my statements. Some time after tile Re testant Government for a Popish Government ; but thereare volution, at the ninon with Scotland, when it was sought reasons which, nevertheless, indispose me to such a change, to have these laws of Charles 11. incorporated as an unal because I apprehend that, ultimately, it may lead to that tenable part of the law of the kingdom, the proposition result, which, of all others, I should deprecate. In stat- was rejected, and not rejected in silence; we have the ing these reasons, I ask the same indulgence which I re- positive reasons and votes of the Scotch Commissioners turn to those who arc opposed to me, and I shall declare who refused to admit; and the words of the Act of Union the opinions on which I will act as long as I live ; for I shall are, that the oaths, as then required by law, eheuld not care, my Lords, to come here again if the Constitution continue until the United Parliament should otherwise of the country be changq—meaning, as I do, by the word direct. I do not know whether the Noble and Constitution, what, till a Noble Lord (Holland) opposite Learned Lord is aware of the fact : but if he looks lately said he thought was not its proper sense, the great into the history of the Union, he will find that the establishments of the country. I shall not care, I say, if proposition was made in the conferences that took place IT I never come here again, should this change be effected ; the English Commissioners to the Scotch ; and that pro lout Ido maintain, and will declare, that, sooner or later, position was this—that the oaths and declarations required the admission of Roman Catholics into Parliament and by the 30th of Charles the Second should be taken by the political power will change the Protestant character of the Members of both Houses of the United Parliament ; but country and our Protestant Constitution, and gradually the proposition being rejected, the Act of Union runs—that introduce a Popish Parliament and a Popish Constitution, tht oaths and declarations, as then enjoined, should con (cheers.) To all the obloquy and scandal with which I tinue to be taken and subscribed, until the Parliament have been abused for holding these opinions, ever since I should otherwise provide. Then comes the Union with was a Member of the House of Commons with the Noble Ireland, and in that Act there is the saute form of expres- Earl (Grey) opposite, who, i believe, sincerely entertains sion, with some verbal difference, but still requiring the very honest opinions on this subject, I ant indifferent ; but same oaths to be taken till Parliament should otherwise when lam told that there is no such thing as a principle direct. Ido hope, therefore, that his Majesty's Ministers, like that for which I contend in our Constitution, Ido who have in their wisdom resolved to do justice to the say—and I will maintain it, when we have an opportunity Roman Catholics, will persevere in their intentions, the to discuss the question fully—that the same principle mere announcement of which has already had the effect of which brings into this House Roman Catholic Members, so disarming the angry feelings that existed in Ireland, and must lead to consequences which the Noble Lords over the of inducing the Roman Catholics at once to retire from way will not believe to be possible. That is my honest their follies mote readily by one single act of justice and and sincere opinion, and I shall act on it, perfectly care- tenderness, than by all the severity of the penal code, if it less what may be the opinion of other Noble Lords. I were again revived. They have shown their anxiety to owe it in duty to the House, standing in this place, to de- bow in submission to the intentions held out by the Legis clare, that ass long as I can I will struggle for the continu- lature, and Ido trust that the Noble Duke, before even the ance of that Constitution which was settled at the Ream- short period has elapsed which will intervene between this lotion of 1688, and by which settlement alone the family moment and the consummation of that great measure, will now reigning came to time Throne. have an opportunity of seeing how directly it will tend to Lord PLUNKETT—If the Noble and Learned Lord consolidate the strength and glory, and the safety and pros who had just sat down felt considerable pain in stating lois perity of the empire —(Great cheering.) opinions on the very important topic which has been in- The Earl of ELDON—It may he satisfactory to some traduced in the course of this discussion, I alma sure your of your Lordships if I state now, that when the question Lordships will readily believe that I must feel a similar de- becomes duly the subject of discussion, I intend to grapple gree of pain and embarrassment in offering my opinion in with the Noble and Learned Lord who has just spoken, opposition to those of the Noble and Learned Lord. But and with his Nottle Friend who site beside him. as he has made an assertion regarding the Constitution, Lord REDESDALE was still decidedly opposed to any from which I wholly dissent—for a mere assertion it is, and innovations on the Constitution in favour of the Roman not an argument—and though this is not the proper time Catholic., nor could he conceive how a Protestant King to argue it, yet I think that in justice to that cause I have could govern the country surrounded by advisers, who were so long advocated, lam bound respectfully, but firmly and not only not Protestants, but adverse to the Protestant re positively, and as a lawyer, not unacquainted with the ligion. It was impossible that in such circumstances the Constitution, though Ido not presume to vie in point of King could by himself protect the Protestant Constitution authority with the Noble anti Learned Lord, to give as of the country. What had passed within a few years must direct a contradiction to What be has stated as it is possible be sufficient to convince their Lordships that no more im for me to do, within the limits of Parliamentary usage. portant principle could exist, than that the King's Mini- The Noble and Learned Lord, in following the Noble Earl liters should lie Protestants as well as the King himself ; for (Grey), re-asserted what the Noble and Illustrious Duke the King could not govern without the assistance of his before asserted, namely, that the question is, whether our Ministers, as he did every thing by others, and nothing Constitution shall remain Protestant, or become Popish ? himself. Was it tribe supposed that the King would long He assumes, or takes it for granted, that the carrying of act as a Protestant King should, when all hie advisers this question necessarily leads to the subversion ot' our Prom- might be urging him to the violation of the Protestant testant Constitution. Now lam as firmly and as warmly Constitution ? He was astonished that any Noble Lord a friend to that Constitution as the Noble and Learned could hold such language as lie had beard in the discussion Lord himself; and I take on myself to say—though I int- of this question. With respect to conciliation, he would pute no motives to those who differ with me—that those e:y, it had no greater friend than himself. The danger are the worst advocates of that Protestant Constitution who of admitting Roman Catholics into Parliament certainly affect to rest it on any basis inconsistent with the rights of depended on their number. If, for example, the entire any portion of the people.—(Cheers.)—So much it was House of Commons were composed of Roman Catholics, necessary for the to say ; and 1 join cordially in the thanks could arty one doubt that the King 'inlet submit to which have from this side of the House been offered to the whatever such a Howe: might please to dictate ? If all Noble Duke at the head of the G o v e rnment, and in gra- the Members of that Howie were Roman Catholics, titude to the Throne fur the gracious Message delivered the consequence would be exactly the saute ; and to both Houses of Parliament ; but when 1 find that so they would if all the King's Ministers were Roman resistance is to be made to these Claims on the wound that Cetholies. This was a question of degree : and FO far lie the concession is contras): to the principles that placed the was MA unwilling to concur with the advocates of conces- House of Brunswick on the Throne ; and when I hear it sion, if they could render it safe. Ile was not so adverse asserted seal reasserted, in a variety of assertion, but with to what might be proposed, but the difficulty was to make no variety of argument certainly (a laugh)—when I hear it so ; fur be feared that if once they allowed admission to it, I say, asserted on the one hand, and refuted on the the followers of the Roman Catholic religion into both other, that the principles established at the Revelation are Houses of Parliament, and also that all the advisers of the in danger, I cannot help asking your Lordships, by whom Crown might be 11.01111 th Catholics, nothing could save are the glorious principles of the Revolution now sought our Protestant Constitution from destruction ; for it seemed to be impugned—(elleo rs) ?—a un d e rtake to shemv, by the to him the most ridiculous idea that ever entered th e h ea d distinct proofs of history, by - reference to the Records of of man, that the Roman Catholics should support Pro- Parliament, that no principles of the kind asserted by the testantism. He considered the Acts of Union as funda- Noble and Learned Lord (Eldon), or in any degree re- mental laws, and they both stipulated that the Church of eembling them in analogy, were established at that time; langlend, the Church of Scotland, anti the Church of lre and that the only principle then established was, that there land, should be Protestant ; but he desired to know how should be a Protestant King always on the Throne of these fuese great national compacts could be kept, if all the Mem realms. That was the only principle, I maintain, estah- bows of Parliament and all the King's Ministers might be fished at the Revolution; and there was nothing then done Roman Cattolics ? If, indeed, means could he found to as the Noble and Learned Ler.l thinks, to exclude Roman prevent the baneful influence of the Roman Catholic Catholics from sitting in Parliament, or from holding high Religion frole controuling the Legislature, then it might offices. It was not the presence of Roman Catholics in become a ii tter of prudence to admit thetn to power this Hottee, or in the other, that was the ca u se of the and to Parlieruent ; but as long as no restrictions of this Revolution, hut the prevalence of bad men and load mea- nature emalti be discovered, it was impossible to admit sores._(Cheers.)—TheAct for'ex,cludieg Roman Catholics them, withoet sacrificing the Protestantism of the Coneti was passed in the reign of Charles IL ;it seas the offspring tutioon, as it had existed since the Revolution. The Noble of falsehood, and directed to a different purpose ; that Act and Learned Lord who had last spoke, had admitted that was the 30th of Charles the Second ; it was the work of the object then was, to place a Protestant Kin always on Titus Oates, and not of the Revolution—(cheers)—it was the Throne, in order that he might preserve the Protes brought in and founded expressly on the now repudiated tent Establishment in Church and State. But when and rejected fabrication of that infamous man regarding time Parliament admitted persona of a different persuasion, the Popish Plot. So much for the origin of that Act, which question was, whether it should be Prot e stant or not. Any it is a disgrace to the Revolution to say, is one of the lases admission of the Ronnon Catholics would be a direct in of the Revolution. I will say further, with r e sp ec t to the fringement of the principle which was fully established at Brunswick Clubs—a most improper name I must remerk the Revolution. Ile said so because it was the effect of l a y the way, as it seems to the highly indecorous to connect that event to continue the laws enacted in c onsequence of the name of the reigning family with:any purposes of faction, the apoltacy of Charles the Second and James the Second ; that if the beginners of these Clubs bad known what they the one a concealed Papist, the other an avowed Apostate. we re doing, they ought to have called them Titus Oates He did not know what were the measures to be proposed ; Club.. So much, my Lords, for the origin of these sacred but if they resembled what had been stated by sonic l a ws which we have often been told were passed a t the Noble Lords, there was an end o f the Constitutional Revolution to secure the Protestantism of the Constitution. principle which had made this country a Protestant What, then, my Lords, let us inquire, was the nature or kingdom. object of that Act, awl what were the mischiefs to be re- Earl BATHURST rose to order. Their Lordship medied ? There was then an apprehension of a Popish had been for some time engaged in discussion without any successor, and the person on the Throne was susp e cted to question before them, and he b eg g e d them to consider how be a Papist, which, in fact, he was, in the most thlious such a practice would lead them into irregularities. All sen s e o f the word. That Act would not have b e en p a ssed, that bad been said might have been ve ry proper if a peti if th e Bill of Exclusion against the Duke of York c ould tion had been presented respecting the further considera have b e en carried ; butt as it was known that that Bill would tion of the Catholic Claims; but a ll that had passed was never be passed, the other was substituted, as the right and actually disorderly. perfect remedy could not be applied. That was the origin The Duke of WELLINGTON rose to address the of the exclusion of the Roman Catholics. It was because House, but sat down without saving any thing. time Parliament of that day could not trust the King The LORD CHANCELLOR—I think, my Lords, that in possession of the Throne, that they, boy that Act, 8C - I ant calicd on to make an apology to your Lordships for cured that 119 Imo could be paand withvut perfect Itty , the course pf prgmijap Which hove pav QU f oe the last attentive to matters of this kind held from the, time w he hitnself had been taught his duty, to the present, be was not aware that a similar instance had occurred. He could not, however, agree with the Noble and Learned Lord tint the liouse was out of ordtr. Without paying untneaniog compliments, he must speak with the utmost possible respect of the Noble and Illustrious Duke who pre sented the petition ; but he could not avoid saying, that his observations contained matter of which it was the duty of any man who differed in opinion to take respectful notice. The LORD CHANCELLOR begged leave to my, that the question upon the petition had been put and carried. The Earl of ELDON was not aware of the fact, and wished that the Noble and Learned Lord had spoken a little louder on the occasion, that the House might know what business was and what was not concluded. He would take this opportnnity of saying a few words upon the new motion of the Noble Duke (Richmond). The measure to he disritssed to-night was for the annihilation of the Roman Catholic Association, and in that object no man in the country would more heartily concert than himself; but it was his duty to add, that if this Bill were to he made the purchase of any other now in contemplation, of the nature of wilidt be wonld not say one word, it deserved conside ration whether even the Bill for the Suppression of the Association ought to be assented to.—(Hear.) —No man could accept it as a proper and adequate remuneration for giving up that which he was satisfied ought neverto be relin quished. In this view it was not merely a Bill for the SupJ nression of the Roman Catholic Association. He world; however, go further, and assert that if any man thought enttf - , the Bill to be read a second time this night would of itself put an t nd to the Association, if it pleased to awake after some brief and unquiet slumber, there never was so extra vagant an opinion formed upon so futile a measure. (Hear, hear.)—lt seas said that this Bill had been framed by persons of such skill and ingenuity that it must be effeo turd ; that a Noble Lord, of the most acute abilities, hail cattle over from Ireland fur the express purpose of aiding' in drawing it ; that no hole was left to creep out at. If had been said of the Act of 1825 that a coach and four might be driven through it; and of tile measure noel proposed, as it stood at present, he might assert, that nal a coach and four but a coach and six might he driven through it, anti all the horses abreast.—(Laughter.)—[We are not sere that we precisely caught his Lordship's ex pression, in consequence of the noise in the House.] Lord HOLLAND spoke to Order, and said that ho would not deviate into the general question soon to be in troduced by the Noble Duke. He vindicated the right of the Lord Chancellor to interfere to preserve Order, although he admitted that every other Peer possessed the same pri vilege. In this instance, the Noble and Learned on the Woolsack could speak not only as a judge but as a witness of irregularity. After the question had been put and de cided, all subsequent discussion upon it was, of course, irre.. gular. If the Noble anti Learned Lord had contributed, as had been charged, to the disorder, it ought to be recol lected that what hail passed seemed to require some obser vations from one of his Majesty's advisers. The principle was, that all Peers, in all respects, in this place, were eqnai?ti and what mi,glit be done by one might he done by anothet. The Duke of SUSSEX observed, that the Noble Dult (Richmond) having only made the motion pro forme, in order that he might follow it up by a speech, he would, of course, now withdraw it, in order that the Bill now to to brought before the House might be discussed. The question of Adjournment was then put, and ne. gatived. CAIIIOLIC ASSOCIATION SUPPRESSION BILL. The Order of the Day for the second reading of the Bill for the Suppression of Dangerous Associations was then read. half hour. When Noble and Illustrious Duke (Cum= herland) rose to address your Lordships, there was no ques tion helm e the House ; but not of deference and respect to that illustrious individual, I did not interfere to prevent any conversation that was then likely to take plate. The Noble and Illustrious Doh ehaving add u cesed the House, and having, in doing so, made that impression which your Lordship's must remember, the Noble Earl (Grey) rose fur the pur pose of making a few observations on what fell from the Illustrious Duke. In consequence of the conversation having taken this turn, I did not feel justified in interfering ; but now I feel that I am called on to apologise to your Lordships for having so far deviated from the rules of this Hou-e ; and I feel that, having presented myself on this occasion, and for this purpose, I am also called on, from what has fallen in the course of this conversation, to state distinctly, accord ing to my meaning of the word, what the Constitution is, as I understand the laws of the country. My opinions, my Lords, on this subject, have been formed after a careful perusal of that part of the history of the country to which your attention his this evening been ( called. I entertain a mighty different opinii.n of the onstitution from that expressed by the Noble and Learned Lord (Eldon) ; but I feel bound to state that, such being my opinions, and dissenting. as I do front that Noble and -a . Learned Lord, I do it , ith great deference, but at the same time with great firmness ; for I am quite sore, aft, r the best attention I have been able to give to the measures which his Majesty's Ministers intend to submit to the con sideration of Parliament, that no measure that will be pro posed by them will be found inconsistent with the princi ples of the Constitution of this country, as recognised at the period to which the Noble and Learned Lord refers. I should, my Lords, ill deserve to be placed in that situation to which I have been raised by the kindness and indulgence of his Majesty, if I recommended or joined in recommend ing to him any measure likely to prove destructive to the Constitution of this country ; and I am certain that, when your Lordships shall hear further than the petitions read to us by the Noble and, Learned Lord, you will agree with me that we should act in variance with the opinion of the Illustrious Individual, who has argued that the Constitution was established at the Revolution on the basis of resisting all concessions to the Roman Catholics for ever. I state so with confidence ; for when your Lordships take a calm and deliberate view of the state of Ireland, of the actual position of the country, and the whole condition of this question, I am satisfied that if those Illustrious Individuals who now witness our deliberations, and partake in them, had pursued precisely the same course that we have thine, they would themselves have recommended to the Crown the same mea sures which it will he the duty of his Majesty's Ministers to submit fur the adoption of Parliament. Having alluded more distinctly than I originally intended to the question of con vesaions to the Roman Catholics, I beg leave to advert par ticularly to what has been said by a Noble and Learned Lord, once a Member and ornament of this House. From the manly character of the mind of the Noble Lord, I am well aware that he would not condescend to such a course for such a purpose ; but it certainly was calculated to raise doubts, suspicions, and surmises. When the question comes regularly before the House, I shall be ready to combat the Noble Lord upon that point ; but I contend that there is nothing in the measures proposed to be sub mitted to Parliament by his Majesty's Ministers io the slightest degree affecting time principle of the succession to the Crown. I state broatully, distinctly, and in the most unqualified terms, though I entertain the highest respect for the talents and learning of the Noble Lord, that I am satisfied when the question comes in a substantive shape before the House, I shall be able—humble and inferior in all respects as I am,—to expose and overthrow the argu ments by which such a position shall be attempted to be supported. At present I should not be justified in tres passing further on the attention of the House, than to pro test against such doctrines ; and I must protest also against this course of proceeding, which is calculated to agitate and excite the public mind, and can lead to no good result. I remember that, osa the day of the meeting of Parliament, allusion was made to the recommendation in the Speech from the Throne, tint these great subjects should be considered with temper and moderation ; but front that day to the present, every endeavour has been used to inflame and rouse, the passions of the multitude. I beg to ask whether such atten pts were either decent or proper in the face of that recommendation, and upon this great subject, so vitally touching the most important interests of the empire? What is it that his Majesty calls upon his Parliament to do ? To consider the disabilities under which his Roman Catholic subjects labour. With what view ? With a view to put an end to those disabili ties, as far as is consistent with the security of the Pro testant religion in this country—as far as is consistent with the security of the Protestant Constitution—as far as is consistent with the security of the Protestant Church. The Ministers have pledged themselves to introduce a Bill which, in their judgment, will effect this object; and it seems but fair and reasonable for Noble Lords to wait until such a Bill shall have been introduced, and until they shall have had an opportunity' of explaining its nature.—(Hear, hear.) If, when that measure is submitted, it is found not to conform to the recommendation of his Majesty—if it cannot be adopted consistently with the security of the Pro testant Establishment or Constitution, it will be the duty of this House to reject it. But if, on the contrary, your Lordships are satisfied, as I trust you will be, that the Bill to be brought in may be adopted without leading to any dangerous consequences, I ant sure that adoption will give satisfaction to the whole empire. I beg pardon for having trespassed upon the patience of the House, but from the aitnation in which I was placed, it was impossible for me to pursue any other course.—(Hear, hear.) The Duke of RICHMOND rose to move an adjourn ment pro forma, in order that he might have a regular op portunity of saying a few words. The Noble Lord on the Woolsack was mistaken if he thought he had more right to take upon himself to keep order in the House than any other Peer. In the other House, indeed, the Speaker was called upon to keep order, anti to enforce it. The Noble and Learned Lord had commenced It s complaining of the breach of form, and bad continued by widening that brietelt and increasing the disorder. When the question came re gularly before the House the Noble and Learned Lord de clared that he should be prepared to justify the course adopted by Ministers. He (the Duke of Richmond) did not mean to join in any attempt to inflame the public mind ; he should be one of the last to resort to such an unworthy expedient ; and he was not aware that upon this point the censure of the Noble and Learned Lord was at all merited by any Peer ; but he (the Duke of Richmond) must take the liberty of asking the Noble anti Learned Lord one ques tion, which might possibly inflame him, though not the public mind ; and that was, how these new lights had so recently broken in upon his understanding ?—( Hear.)— Whether . the march of intellect anti the progress of know ledge, in these latter days, had at all contributed to this sudden ?—(Hear, hear, hear.)—No doubt the Noble and Learned Lord hail had good reasons to sa tisfy his mind ; his conviction this year, in direct opposi tion to his conviction last year, was unquestionably consci entious ; but those who adhered to their former opinions, and who now, therefore, differed from the Noble and Learned Lord, had a right to expect that the same justice should be done to their motivea.—(llear, hear.)—lle (the Duke of Richmond) was against Emancipation at all ; and if he had been one who thought that securities would be of any avail, he should, as the Noble and Learned Lord had recommended, have waited until the measure was in troduced. Wishing for no alteration—not having had the benefit of the new lights obtained by the Noble and Learned Lord—he had a right to state his objections to every pi o ject of the kind, without being taunted with endeavouring to excite the passions of the people—(hear, hear.)—When the Bill was brought in, he should resist all further con cession, whatever might be its provisions ; and would now, pro forma, move the adjournment of the House. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE wished to say only one word OH the point of order, and not to join in the irregula rity. There was not only no incidental motion before the House ; but no question at all. The Earl of ELDON observed that the Order of the Day had been moved. The Alarquis of LANSDOWNE added, that the present question was that of adjournment, and upon that he had a right to state what he conceived was the due order of pro ceeding. He begged to confirm most distinctly what had f a ll e n from the Noble Duke upon the subject —ex officio. The Nubile and Learned Lord on the Woolsack had no right to interfere to call the House to order, unless be was re quired to state his opinion upon the subject. At the same time, he must in justice admit, that in general it had been more expected from the Peer who occupied that situation than from any other, that he should suggest what was the regular course, and take the pleasure of the House upon it. The Noble and Learned Lord, however, had no greater pri vilege in this respect than any other Peer. lie (Lord Lansdowne), for one, regretted this disorderly discussion had occurred, and he would not contribute further than to express his confidential hope that the important topic ad verted to would, at the fit time, meet with the full discus sion and investigation which the overwhelming magnitude of the subject imperatively demanded. The Earl of ELDON agreed in the opinion that the Lord Chancellor had no mere right than any other Peer to call the House to order, and remembered that on one occasion Lord Grenville bad silenced him, when be, then presiding on the woolsack, haul contended for the especial privilege of the Lord Chancellor to advert to any irregula rity of proceeding. It seemed necessary in a deliberative Arnuthly that it alavulti be tuidubt* that avun one was 'hot The Duke of WELLINGTON—It now becomes nil duty to move the second reading of the Bill for Suppresia ing Illegal and Dangerous Associations; in doing sa, it is my intention to refer as little as possible to the question so much discussed for the last two house, and I must say ae very irregularly (hear, hear !). In adverting to the CA' tholic Association, it is not my purpose, nor my wish, t° exaggerate its power, or to aggravate its evils; its dowdy' tion is, in my opinion, accurately stated in the Speech delivered by his Majesty's Commissioners on the first dal of the Session, where it is said that " his Majesty la' ments that in that part of the United Kingdom an As' eociation should still exist which is dangerous to the pulse lic peace, and inconsistent with the spirit of the Constie tution : which keeps alive discord and amongst his Majesty's subjects ; and which must, if permitted to continue, effectually obstruct every effort permanentli to improve the condition of Ireland." It is followed bl the expression of his Majesty's reliance on the wisdom 01 Parliament, " to commit to him such powers as may en' able his Majesty to sustain his just authority." I feel that I am warranted in stating, that in the original constitution and form of this Society there was nothing illegal; it' illegality arises from its acts, and from the language of it' members. Its acts consist principally of the levy of a re' venue upon his Majesty's subjects, called a rent, pro' cured, I am afraid, in some i ns t ances , by extreme Vitt'knee, and occasioning many heart-burnings and jealonsie among the people. Other acts of the same characte r are, appointing persons to collect that revenue or rent •—nominating others to be treasurers of the 81 101 ' thus procured—organising the people, certainly for no good purpose--selecting individuals to superintend such organization, and assuming, in many cases, the go vernment of the country—and, what is more, affecting to assnme that Government. They have, besides, expended the rent in a manner inconsistent with all law and order, and with the Constitution of the empire. Part of the money was appropriated to election purposes ; and here I beg leave to draw the attention of some of my Nob le Friends, and particularly of my Noble Friend heretofore on the 'Woolsack, to the fact established by the proceedings 0f this body, of the existence in Parliament of a Roman Ca tholic influence, and' even of the influence of the Associa tion. (Hear, hear.) Ido not mean to discuss the subject further at present, but I beg Noble Lords not to forget that fact when they come to the consideration of measure I shall propose hereafter, and when they are called urn° to arrive at a decision on those measures. Besides th e money spent for the purpose of procuring voters at elec.- nous, other sums were laid out in endeavouring to contront the administration of justice in Ireland. I fully adroit the right, and not only the right, but the duty, of every' nun to watch closely and vigilantly the administration of law and justice; but that right and that duty cannot be conveniently or adequately performed by a self-electe d, self-erected Association, having large sums at its corn', mend, and employing those sums for the purpose 0$ exciting litigation—for the purpose of defending seiner of prosecuting others—for the purpose of introducing agents among Coroners' Juries, and influencing an d corrupting the first inquiries into criminal proceeding! when information is laid before the Magistrates. It je quite obvious that proceedings of this description must tend to the tainting of the very fountain of justice itself./ (Hear, hear.)—The proceedings of such a body, so con' stituted and so organised, might have the effect of mixtfig party spirit in every judicial discussion—of introdu cing faction among juries, awl shaking the public confidence O t that tribunal which is the foundation of private rights s o d the safeguard of personal liberty. I will not now deal° your Lordships by explaining to you the effects which th e existence and operations of this Association had upon Ire; land : in my opinion these facts belong more properly to future discussion, when I shall be required to (lentil tb . measures the Government will have to propose, after Or Bill now on your table shall have passed. This, however, I must say, that from all I have seen and read of Ireland' for the last two years, I do not believe there is on the Cl° , of the globe a country claiming the character of civilise tion in so perilous a condition.—(Hear, hear, beer.)_ In the discussions that have already taken place mil ° , subject of this Association, several of your Lordsh l P. have expressed the opinion that the Bill I am abe t to propose is not necessary, because the ulterior yet sure announced in the Speech from the Throne .1: calculated of itself to put an end to the Catholic Assoc° Thattion. opinion must be founded upon this Notion!, that the Association speaks the language and entertains t!,/ sentiments of the great body of the Roman Catholics vr, Ireland. Now, my Lords, lam afraid, from the nunib e d that have attended that Association—from the n ature; the speeches there delivered, and to which no ohjse l° o was made—from the patient submission of those who be i , contributed the rent, that the notion to which I have 11 , hided is well founded. That any Noble Lords should , tempt to justify such conduct seems to tne very e xtraot t :' , nary, and that justification can rest upon one ground o°loff viz. that the claim of the Roman Catholics to the repeal 0 the disabilities of which they complain is founded ur bi , right. Now, I recollect the many discussions upon „ question, both in this and in the other Ilouse of PAO; meat, and I believe not one instance can be pointed out 10 which what is required by the Roman Catholics has, rested rested on the ground of abstract right. It has been riably argued as a question solely of political experbeticle and never as a right; and as a question of political (limey, I submit to your Lordships that the Roman re tholics ate not justified in having established this P o soeiation—in being ;parties to the proceedings of ft, Association, and in subaiitting to the payment of in order to create a revenue to be employed by the . soeiation. Under these circumstances, therefore, I o ° 4 your Lord-hips will be fully justified in carrying into efi o that part of his Majesty's Speech which recommends t", suppression of the Association before you proceed t? o consideration of the ulterior tuettsurea .aittorckrrc4 t.. 9 DISSECTIONS. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition from the Physicians, Surgeons, and other persons en gaged in the medical and surgical profession, pray ing that their Lordships would take into consideration the difficuties under which they laboured in the exercise of their profession, and particularly those under which the student laboured in acquiring a proper know ledge of the human frame. As this was a subject on which the Noble Marquis had but lately expressed his sen timents, and as the other House hail received the report of the Committee on the subject, and were likely to take imme diate notice of it by bringing in a Bill to provide for the wants of Dissection, be should not here trespass further on the time of the House. The Noble Marquis adverted to the lamentable resorts had recourse to, since the House last met, fur supply ing the Dissecting Rooms, and he trusted that the House would not now hesitate to take into consideration the means of provi ding for the wants of the medical student upon this point of education, one of the most important to the com munity.