The Sun. — London, England, 1858-07-03 00:00:00

so, it was a moat gross injustice upon the church to de prive it of its rights without equivalent and without compensation on r the one hand, and on the other to exempt the pariithiouer born his pecuniary obligation. (Hear, hear.) There wore two great difficulties sur rounding the question, or rather two classed of diffi• culties. The one was the ill-feeling and the legal diffi culties involved In the levjing of a church rate when it was opposed; the other and much greater difficulty was how to deal witl r the parishes where a majority of the vestry were un willing to impose the tax. For the latter there was no practical remedy. There was a right, but it was incapable of being enforced. . But s urely the case 'as against church rates was inh . nitely A ' , l^ponded, not upon an arbitrary levy to be enforced upon ail, the vnlertlry choice of the majority, who assessed themselves and the whole parish equally. (Hear, hear.) If no individual was to pay a tax of the immediate object of which he did not approve, and if no majority could impose a pecuniary obligation on a minority, a blow would be struck at the very root of the whole system of taxa tion. (Hear.) It must be admitted that within cer tain limits and for purposes of importance the ma jority should have the power by taxation of binding the minority and enforcin g their decision. He had not heard the noble duke, or any, contend that the maintenance of the fabric of the Church and the celebration of Divine worship was not an act of para mount national importance. But the noble duke ap peared to entertain the opinion that it might be safely entrusted to the voluntary principle, and a reference had been made to what had taken place in Scotland on the disruption of the national Church, and to the effort made by the late Bishop of London in the metropolis. He had the greatest respect for the voluntary principle, and was of opinion that it might be safely trusted to when a great immediate, and energetic effort was required in any particular district ; but he did not think it could be trusted to for the purpose of raising year after year a certain fixed and definite sum, and was convinced that whilst all who bad dealt with public subscriptions, whe ther for the building of churches, the establishment of teospitals, or other charities, had found little difficulty in obtaining sums for the immediate and pressing purpose, they had found the greatest difficulty in building up a continuous list of subscribers. (Hear.) It was not at all surprising that in the case of the disruption of the Church of Scotland a great effort should have been made by the Free Church to place themselves on a level with the Establishment, nor that in the case of London a great stimulus amulet have been given to the building of new churches. In such cases the voluntary principle ought to be applied and relied upon, but he could not with the same confidence rely upon the voluntary principle for the purpose of steadily maintaining what had been volun tarily set on foot. No one pretended that there was any injustice in calling upon a person to pay the obliga tion which was imposed upon property ; but a person could not be called upon to contribute to this object of national importance unless under the direction of a ma jority. He was afraid, with respect to church-rates, that not only many members of the Church of England had combined with the Dissenters, but that amongst both there were many who were not actuated by a feel ing of hostility against the Church so much as against the impost, which they felt to be a grievance. Never theless, he could not consent that a very large propor tion of those who were carrying on the agitation against church rates were doing so on political grounds, and for the purpose of taking away the power and influence of the Church, to which, as dissenters, they were opposed. He knew there were large masses of political dissenters who were animated by deadly hostility to the Church of England, and who relied upon the support of conscien tious dissenters and honest churchmen for the purpose of carrying into effect their main object of lowering and degrading and despoiling the Church of England, and compelling it to rely, if they could compel it to rely, upon the voluntary principle. (Hear.) He could not, in point of principie, concur with those who contended that the dissenter, as a dissenter, was entitled to be re lieved from that impost. At this moment he himself paid tithes on a portion of his property to a Roman Catholic. But if he were to say he had a conscientious objection to pay a Roman Catholic those tithes, which ought to go for the maintenance of the Protestant Church, and so refuse to fulfil his legal obligation, the result would be that the tithes would go into his own pocket. Now, what was the difference between tithes and church rates I (Hear.) In principle there was no difference whatever. But the payment of tithe could be enforced by law, whilst the church rate could not be enforced practically against the dissenter. In this case he should be willing to stretch a point ; and if it were possible to come to any arrangement he should be ready to take any step which might be the means of re lieving conscientious, honest dissenters, beyond the maintenance of their own places of worship. (Hear.) But surely as some equivalent he might ask the dissenter to be exempt on the ground of deriving no benefit from the church and its services. It was said that was "ticketing" a dissenter. But if a dissenter did not claim exemption as a dissenter, what right had he to be exempted on the ground of being a dissenter (Hear.) Such a proposition as the present, if carried, would permanently alienate the dissenters from the church, and be an inducement to persons to declare them selves dissenters. If every person were entitled to be exempted from church rates who simply declared that he entertained a conscientious scruple, he was afraid that a considerable number of exemptions would be claimed by those who could not plead conscientious ob jections. (Hear.) But if dissenters were to be exempted, ought they not to cease to have a veic3in the levying of the rate—ought they not be told they must forego any claim on the services of the church, that they should have no voice in the choice cf churchwardens, that they should not be eligible to the office of churchwarden ? (Hear.) He admitted the great difference which existed under the present law, but those who proposed to make a change bad failed to suggest any remedy. The propo sition to make up the payment out of the Consolidated Fund had been objected to, as well as the suggestion that dissenters should claim exemption as dissenters. He had heard it suggested that theme should be levied in every parish, not a church rate, but a worship rate, to be applied according to the option of the persons contri buting; but that proposition had been objected to on grounds of the most conflicting character. One class of dissenters objected to any compulsory payment at all, and they would as strenuously resist the levying a rate for the maintenance of their own places of worship as for any other places of worship. Relying upon the voluntary principle, they repudiated any notion of a general rate. (Hear, hear.) After hearing the noble duke support the principle of the complete abolition of church rates he was surprised to hear him propose that the operation of the bill should be postponed for four or five years. That prc position was more objectionable than even the bili itself. (Hear.) In the next place, the noble duke proposed that there should be levied upon the land cf England a charge equivalent to the amount of the church rates. Un doubtedly, if the proposition could be carried out that there should be a fund levied upon estates equal to the church rates, it would require the most serious con sideration. But it was entirely at variance with tho object of the bill ; and if the noble duke looked to such a result there could be no more certain mode of defeat ing it than the abolition of the existing payment, for the difficulties which now existed would very soon rise again. Suppose a portion of an estate so charged to be sold, and the purchaser to be a dissenter, the case which now existed would again arise. It was true there would be the advantage of a rued and positive charge, and a vestry would have no discretion in the matter. (Hear.) The only mode of arriving at a solution of the question was by voluntary action in the first instance—by im posing a permanent liability, and not trusting to the operation of the voluntary principle. (Hear, hear.) Every other proposal h a d been repudiated in the course of the discussion. He confessed that anxious as he was —and he was most anxious—to see the present lax placed upon a difftrent and more satisfactory footing, he was so sensible a the cif cultiee surrounding the question that be could venture to give no distinct or decided pledge that he could undertake to introduce a measure on the subject. The question was one which must be apprnacheil with the greatest caution and deliberation. It was a question, moreover, on which some advances should be made both on one side and the other, and on which before any suggestion or com• promise could be considered there ought to be some rea sonable ground of its being accepted. He saw no solu tion of the difficulty except by the operation of a volun tary commutation of church rates. One difficulty would be to fix the aineunt of the averages upon wbich the f m derl. With regard to a great number of rural pa. wens •.. nu L.L4- • ; l 'VI' -acre not very large there would be a good prospect of a imolai commutation if the option were given to proprietors and landowners to commute by a permanent charge upon their property, or by the payment of a sufficient sum to meat the annual charge. The amount of charge in rural parishes would be comparatively small. In the case of a parish of the average rental of 6,0001. alrear the amount of a rate at 2d. in the pound would only be 501. Looking at the great number of these small parishes, he was convinced that a sufficient sum would be contributed to give security for the average value of the rate. (Hear.) He believed further that many persons who objected to pay church rates, many persons who dis sented from the church, would be willing to contribute such au amount once for all to redeem the payment of the rates. He did not say that he looked forward with entire confidence to the operation of that system, throughout the great towns and parishes, but he believed that some system of voluntary commutation was the only one likely to remove the difficulties which sur rounded the question, and maintain those rights of the church which, not for the benefit cf the church, but for the benefit of the community at largo, and more especi ally the poorer part of the community, ought not to be left to chance or the voluntary system, but to be based on a permanent foundation. Whatever course might be adopted it would be necessary to consider and limit the precise objects towards which the fund should be applied. But the adoption of any such cou rse wou ld b e rendered . perfectly hopeless it their lordships should accept the.present bid. (Hear.) Ihe motive for commutation would be done away withif the legal obligation to p a y should be removed. If their lordships thought it possible to come to any compromise or agreement—if they thought it possible to make terms satisfactory to the Church and conciliatory to the Dissenters, and to place the matter on a satisfactory and just footing, they ought as a first step to rej ec t th e p ro p os ition for an absolute and unconditional abolition of church rates. (Cheers.) He could not pledge the Government to introduce any measure on the subject, but he should be glad to per ceive the slightest indication on the part of the Dis senters to meet the Church half way. (Hear.) So long as the Dissenters were determined to be content with nothing but absolute repeal they tied down the bands of the members of the Church, and compelled them in self defence to fall back upon that which, however imperfect, yet . to a great extent did maintain that which it was of the utmost importance to maintain, the .fabric of the Established Church, and to make a due provision for the religious services of the Church. (Hear.) For the interest of the Dissenters themselves and of all those who wished the matter settled on fair ground, it was most important not only that the bill should be rejected by a considerable majority, but that the majority should be so large and overwhelming as to render it manifestly hopeless to carry a bill for absolute and unconditional repeal. (Cheers.) He would venture to say to the Dis senters on the part of the Church and on the part of her Majesty's Government that they should be met in the most friendly and conciliatory spirit ; otherwise they must stand by the present law. (Hear.) He was con vinced that the larger the majority against uncondi tional repeal the better prospect there would be of bringing ad parties to a reasonable and fair settlement of this great and most important question. (Hear.) Ihc L1J1.13 en-1 c.)-elmied by moving that the bill be read a second ti me that day six mouths. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY, who spoke very indistinctly, was understood to say that some legal pre vision was absolutely necessary for the support of the fabric and the religions services of the church, and he believed that nine•tenths of the parishes of the coun try entertained that opinion. Under the voluntary system the clergy would be placed in a situation the most distressing and galling. He believed that the change now proposed would, if carried out, be produc tive of very great evil, and that the result would be that the next generation would see many of our churches in a state of decay and ruin. (Hear, hear.) Earl GRANVILLE observed that it bad been said, and said truly, that a great majority of their lordships had not been committed to any opinion on tins question at all. There were some exceptions—those who had belonged to the governments of the last twenty years, and especially to the two last governments, who were so far committed that they might be supposed to be in fluenced by the opinions given by their colleagues in another place. But the question now assumed another phase, for they found that for the first time a bill for the total abolition of church rates had been passed by the other house. He had carefully and conscientiously con sidered the course it was his duty to take, and he had come to the conclusion that he should vote for the second reading of this biil, and he believed that the passing of this bill would be most advantageous for the church itself. The law had been laid down by great authorities that evening. Lard St. Leonards laid it down, to his great surprise, th at thochurch had the same title to church rate 3 that their lordships had to their pri vate property. There was no doubt that by the com mon law of England there was the right and the duty to repair the fabric of the church, and that the mode of doing so was by church rates. But, on the other band, there was no remedy. To.' being the state of the law, what was the state as regarded the facts ? As their lord ships were aware, in a large number of parishes church rates were practically and completely abolished. A NOBLE LORD—In not more than five per cent. Earl GRANVILLE said the noble lord was referring to the number of parishes rather than to the popu lation. It was not necessary for him to refer to the bickering and the strife occasioned by this state of things. He Ibelieved that at this moment there was an organisation which was likely to increase the num ber of parishes in which no rate was levied, and by which the opposition would be extended even to the rural parishes. Therefore he considered that the longer the settlement of this question was deferred the more diffi cult would they find it to deal with. Printed papers were circulated showing the best way of opposing the levying of a rate, and he believed it had arrived at this point. A calculation was made at the time—he believed it was three years—during which they might successfully op pose the payment. He appealed to their lordships whe ther this was a state of things which it was desirable should be continued. Different modes of getting rid of the difficulty had been proposed. The one proposed by his noble friend was to abolish church rates altogether, and to leave the maintenance of the fabrics to voluntary efforts. He was not so much afraid of the voluntary principle as some of their lordships who had spoken. He found the parish churches wherecburch rates were no longer levied, and the district churches to which church rates were not applicable, had been better supported than the chur sues in parishes where the rates were still levied, and he could not believe that a great and wealthy esta blishment like the Church of England, comprising amongst its raenabers the most wealthy in the land, would suffer the churches to fall into decay for want of repair. As to the character of the opposition to church rates, it was admitted on all hands that hostility to the established church did not characterise the whole of the opponents to church rates, and he believed that a great number of the dissenters were friendly, and not hostile to the esta blished church. He admitted, however, that a portion of them were diametrically opposed to the established church, and that they supported this measure as a means of subverting it. If their lordships rejected this bill, they would promote the views of the latter party he had re ferred to. He did not agree with his noble friend that it was advisable to pass this measure and suspend its opera tion. The speech of the noble earl (Derby) showed him that he had carefully considered the subjecr, and he (Lord Granville) thought the best course was that their lord ships should agree to the second reading of the bill, and that they should go into committee of the whole house upon it or refer it to a select committee, and if govern ment would then take upon themselves to introduce amendments, that would be a more satisfactory way of cowing to a conclusion on the subject than rejecting the bill, and waiting for the pledge of the noble lord that he would bring in a bill next year. He should therefore vote for the second reading of the bill, firmly believing that the sooner they could arrive at a settlement of this question the better it would be for al parties concerned. The Bishop of LONDON said in reference to the voluntary system that many churches had of late been built in his dioceso by voluntary subscriptions. There was no difficulty in raising money for building them, but experience had shown there were infinite difficulties in maintaining them after they were built. Many of them were now in anything but good repair, and the curates of them had to supplicate assistance for keeping them open. In poor districts the difficulties were the greatest, and the impression amongst the poorer daises was that the abolition of church rates would not benefit ' them but the saving would go into the pockets of those above them. lie believed Dissenters bad no real hos tility to the Established Church ; they knew she was now as she had been in times past—the bulwark that defended them against what they feared more than they did the Established Church ; and when they were threatened some time since with papal aggression, the Dissenters of this country looked up to the Established Church as the protector of religious freedom. All wore agreed it was desirable to settle this question, and he re gretted it could net be done this session ; but the bill before the house he thought was not likely to attain that object, and he asked their lordships not to take a step that would be injurious to the Established Church. With regard to the committee referred to by the noble duke who moved the second reading of the bill, the right rev. prelate said that the noble duke had not given a correct statement of the decision they came to. It was true they were in favour of the voluntary system to as sist them in providing for spiritual destitution, but it was not looked to as a means of taking away 300,0001. a year from the Church, but as a subsidiary to the present means. (Hear, hear, and "Divide.") Earl GREY said the labouring population and the poor had a right to have the churches of this land and the established religion maintained by the rich. Lord CAMPBELL thought that to abolish church rates without a compensating equivalent being proposed, would be both unjust to the poor and to the Church. The Earl of GALLOWAY opposed the bill. It would damage the Church, and introduce great confusion into the country. Lord PORTMAN supported the bill. The present system had failed to support the fabric of the Church ; therefore, some new system ought to be introduced. He believed that the time had come for the framing of some such bill as that now before their lordships. The Bishop of OXFORD opposed the bill, and warned their lordships that the true object of those who bad op posed the church rates was the destruction of the Church establishment. vV Lord STANLEY of ALDER LEY supported the bill, and reminded their lordships that the noble earl at the head of the Government bad formerly extended the very relief to the Roman Catholics of Leland which he now refused to the Dissenters of England. After a few words from the Duke of SOILEBSET, Their lordships divided— Content—Present Proxies —36 N . J1.•:3: - .. , :nt3 —Present lO9 Proxies —lB7 Majority against the second read of the bill Their lordships then adjourned at a quarter past one o'clock. ROUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY. The SPEAKER took the chair at twelve o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The lArdi.' amendments to the following bills were considered and agreed to—Cornwall Railway, London and South-Western Railway, Mersey Docks and Har- bour (Consolidation of Acts), Mersey Docks and Har bour (New Works), Halifax Park and Improvements. The Great Southern of India Railway Company Bill and the Warrington and Stockport Railway (Capital) Bill were read a third time and passed. The Holroyd Estate Bill was read a second time. GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL (No. 2). The house went into c..nnmittee on this bill, lemming at clause 13, Mr. COLLIER moved art an amendment that the members of the council should have 5001. a year ewer instead of 1,2001., as propo ed in the bill. The council would have great patronage, and with such men as those who would compose the council a desire to serve their friends would be a greater inducement than mere salary. Lord STANLEY Ppposed the amendment. He thought 1,2001. a year was not too much for men who would have to pass the greater part of their time in London. He took that opportunity of stating that he intended inserting a proviso to the effect that no member of the council should be entitled to a pension who had riot served ten year, , . Mr. GREGSON did not think the whole time of the members of the council would be required. They would only have to attend the board once a week, and he thought 5001. a year would be sufficient. For that and the patronage attached to the officio, he thought efficient men would be found. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that, although the members of the council would have to meet once a week in a council, a daily attendance of many hours would be required of them it , addition. There were many men who were not habitually resident in London, who would be very (Orient memhers of the council, and their compulsory residence would entail upon them great expense. Mr. V. SMITH said if first-rate men were to be ap pointed members of the council, 1,2001. or even 2,0001. a year would not be too large a sum for them, as they would be equal to privy councillors and men holding high office in the State. But he did not think that would ho the condition of the oouncil. The Directors of the East India Company were in possession of 5001. a year with patronage ; and he never heard that those gentlemen complained of the inadequacy of their salaries. If the East India Directors elected four of the gentlemen already Directors who would not attend more than once a week from their other pursuite, 5001. a year would be enough for them ; while for the nominees of the Crown he admitted 1,2001. a year would not be too much. Lirfl STANLEY thought two scales of salary objec tionable. lc v.:As Lur, i.ttaltion of the hill to bind the persons appointed on the council to give up the whose of their time and to abandon every other support ; but it would be expected of them that they should give up as much time as the performance of the duties would require. Mr. LOWE said the only difficulty the committee was in was that they were called upon to assess the salary for duties on the nature of which they had no in formation. If the duties were to be those of the Court of Directors he thought 5001. a-year would be sufficient, but if the duties were to be those of a permanent secretary in a public office he considered that 1,200/. a-year would be by no means exorbitant. He deplored the reckleils manner in which money was squandered away in that house—money that would spread education over whole districts and mitigate the horrors of a perverse religion, and all this to be wrung out of the sweat and blood of a miserably oppressed people. (Hear, hear.) Colonel SYKES (Director) spoke of the vast amount of business the Directors of the East India Company had to discharge. He considered 8001. or 1,0001. a year would be sufficient, and that it should be considered an honorarium. Mr. M. MILNES considered 1,2001. a year not too much for the members of the council. Mr. WHITE thought the work would be as well done by men at 5001. a year as at 1,2001. a year. Mr. WILLIAMS considered 5001. a year salary suf ficient, especially as the patronage was valued in 1853 as worth 6,0001. a-year. (Oh, Oh !) The finances of India were in that embarrassed state that, if they con tinued this profligate system of expenditure, the re sources of England would be called upon to meet it, and they would have to tax the people of England to make up the deficiency of India, Lord JOHN RUSSELL considered the decision of the committee, giving patronage to the council, and de priving them from seats in that house, had greatly in• creased the difficulties of the subject. If the opinion of the hon. member for Lambeth was correct in reference to the patronage, he (Lord J. Russell) feared it would result injuriously to India. On the whole, he thought 1,200/. a-year was not too much if they were to have the best men, and guard against the misapplication of the patronage. Sir J. GRAHAM said, that the bill and the amend ments, coupled with the statements of the members of her Majesty's Government, he presumed the council would have daily duties to discharge. (Hear.) It ap• peared to him that it was the intention of her Her Ma. jesty's Government to divide the work into committees subject to the direction of the President of the Council. The impression on the minds of hon. members with re ference to the bill was that if elected to the council they must devote their whole time to the duties of their office, and he had been informed by Captain Sheppard, at pre sent a director, chairman of the Hudson's Bay Company and deputy chairman of the Trinity Board, that if he were elected a memberof the council he should consider himself bound to 'resign those two offices. (Hear, hear.) He had no desire to spend one rupee more than was neces sary, to advance the happiness of the people of India, and he thought nothing would conduce more towards the attainment of that object than by having a well constituted Government in this country. On the whole, he considered the sum named in the bill not too much for the members of the council, understanding that the devotion of time meant such reasonable attend. ance as the President of the Council might require. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was not desirable to introduce into the bill words rigidly preventing the members of the council from per forming other duties, but to leave it to the President of the Council to define their duties and attendance, ac cording to the necessities of the case. The disposal of their time to the duties of the office would not preclude the members of the council from attending to other duties. It would, however, bo a matter of election, whether gentlemen would place their time at the disposal of the office, or adhere to their counting-houses duties in a rigid manner. He thought, however, the members of the council, although called on to place their time at the disposal cf their offices, would permit them to maintain, in a modified form, their relation with the pursuits that had heretofore entirely absorbed their lives. He considered a salary cf 1,2001. a-year by no means too much. The subject was a very difficult one. They bad heard many sums men tioned, and the hon. member for Aberdeen had said that whilst 8001. a-year would be an honorarium, 1,2001. a-year would be an insult. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He considered the members of the council ought not to be paid less than the Lords of the Treasury. (Divide.) Sir G. C. LEWIS considered the difficulty of fixing the amount of salary arose from the large number of councillors, He supported the sum named by the Go vernment in the bill, but suggested a modification of the clause, to the effect that the sum should not exceed 1,2001., which would enable the Government at any future time to adapt the salary to the actual duties hereafter t) be discharged by the members of the council. Lord STANLEY said it was better to fix the sum, and if it was found hereafter there was a diminution of duties, he thought it would be bettor for the Govern ment of the day to come to Parliament for a bill to re duce the members of the council rather than provide in the bill for a reduction of salary. After some further conversation, Mr. COLLIER ex pressed his wish to withdraw his amendment, but it was objected to by the committee. After a few words from Mr. Coningham, Sir E. Perry, Sir J. Elphinstone, Mr. Lowe, Mr. Cox, and Mr. Elliott, The committee divided. The numbers were— For the amendment Against it Majority —167 The clause, after some further discussion fixing the salary at 1,2001. a-year, was agreed to. On clause 14, which provides retiring pensions after 10 years' service, Sir F. BARING urged there should be a uniformity of retiring pensions. A man should not be induced to continue in office longer than he was capable of effi ciently discharging the duties, with a view of obtaining a large pension. Mr. RICH moved, as an amendment, that the period of retirement should be at the end of 15 years instead of 10 years. Lord STANLEY defended the clause. Many men might be practically incapable of discharging the duties at the end of 10 years ; whilst others might be able to do so at the end of 15 years. It was to meet the former case that the clause had been drawn and the distinction in amount made. There was as much objection and abuse in getting men to resign, as there was in inducing them to hold office for the higher pension ; but he thought the proposal in the clause was one that the com mittee might agree to. Mr. GLADSTONE objected to pensions, except in cages where the country had had the benefit of the whole of a man's services. He objected to men coming back from India in the enjoyment of pensions in respect of services rendered in that country being put into offices, giving them ne;v titles, and after a short period of ser vice giving them claim to accumulation pensions. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was not the intention of her Majesty's Government to appoint men at present in the enjoyment of pensions for services in India. The object of the clause was to pre vent men who were disabled after a certain period, and were unable to perform their duties, from hanging on to their situations and their salaries to the detriment of the government of India. Lord STANLEY said if the committee would take the clause as it stood, down to 5001. after 10 years' ser vice, he was ready to consent to the omission from the bill of the remainder of the clause.: After some further discussion, in which Mr. Ayrton, ryy! Me. Mangles took part, The clause, aulei4ueu sug;ested he Lord Stanley, was agreed to, a proviso being added relation Lo tie reduction of the number of the council when Parliament might think fit. On the motion that dame 14, as amended, stand part of the bill, Mr. GLADSTONE said that at present, in reference to the directors of the East India Company, her Ma jest's Government had power to compel the resignation of a director from physical incapacity, and he was not disposed to surrender that principle. He thought some provision should be introduced into the bill, retaining that power relative to the number of the council. Lord STANLEY said it was provided for in the bill, by an address from both Houses of Parliament to the Crown for that purpose. Mr. GLADSTONE thought it objectionable. After some further conversation, Mr. RICH said he would take the sense of the com mittee on the clause. The committee divided. The numbers were— Fur the clau,e as amended 199 Against it lOl Majority The clause, as amended, was agreed to. Clause 15, regulating the administrative establishments of the Home Government, gave rise to some discussion, and the clause, after some verbal amendments, was agreed to. Clauses 16, 17, and 13, were agreed to with verbal amendments. Clause 19 was under consideration, when The Committee suspended its sitting at 4 o'clock, The house resumed at six o'clock. THE UNIVERSITY OF SCOTLAND BILL, Col. SYKES (=aye notice that On the bringing up of the report on the University of Scotland Bill, be would move that the Provost and Council of Aberdeen have leave to be heard by council against the bill. MILITARY AND CRIMINAL LAW. Mr. WARREN gave notice that early next session he would call attention to the subject of criminal law, and would move for leave to bring in a bill to amend the criminal law at quarter sessions. THE BRITISH MUSEUM. Mr. TURNER moved for a copy of any communications to the trustees, from the heads of departments in the Bri tish museum, with reference to the memorial of certain assistants on the subject of salaries of the 11th day of March, 1858, and the proceedings of the trustees thereupon, The return was ordered. THE INDIAN ARMY. Con. EVANS asked whether the Government intended to appoint a commission to inquire into the state of the Indian Army ? Lord STANLEY said that on the second reading of the Indian Bill ho stated that it was the intention of the Go vernment to appoint such a commission, composed in the following manner :—Three officers of the Indian Army, three officers of the Queen's Army, who had served a cer tain length of time in India, three civilians, and those high official persons whose departments were concerned in the question, namely, the Commander-in-Chief, the Mini ster of War, and the President of the Board of Control. THE TRINITY HOUSE. Oa th© motion of Mr. CRAWFORD, there was ordered a copy of the report made to the Corporation of the ¶rinity House by the chief engineer of the Trinity steam-ship Argus, relative to the ascertained results from the use of the patent regulating air-doors fitted to her steam-boiler furnaces by Mr. John Lee Stevens. EDUCATTON. Mr. CROSSLEY moved as eersiiees for retnens n the in come, expenditure, and number of pupils of all training in stitutions aided by Parliamentary grants, other than those reported on by the Rev. F. Temple and the Rev. F. C. Cook ; the returns to be made under the same heads as in the minutes 157-8, pp. 737-8 and 700-3. The return was ordered. PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR THE EVENING. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished to make a remark as to the public business for that evening. They would go into committee on the Indian Bill as soon as possible, and if they did not conclude it that night, as he hoped they would, he proposed that the house should meet to-morrow (Saturday). Under these circumstances, he would not move the ordinary adjournment of the house till Monday. Mr. H. BERKELEY asked what was to become of.the questions which were to be founded on that motion ? He had one of considerable importance on the paper. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the Government would be very happy to answer any questions that might be put. Mr. BERKELEY said that would not do, as he wanted to make a speech. (Laughter.) He should move the ad journment of the house, in order that he might be in order in making his statement. Mr. COX said that he also had a question on the paper, and he should move that the house at its rising do adjourn till Monday. Some confusion arose in consequence of these conflicting motions, but eventually Mr. Cox proceeded. PARISH OF ISLINGTON. Mr. COX asked the Secretary of State for the Home De partment, whether Mr. Wyatt, who has lately been ap pointed superintendent registrar of the parish of Islington, is to retain his office of assistant clerk at Somerset-house, and whether any other clerk in the Registrar-General's office holds the appointment of superintendent registrar of a large metropolitan parish ? He said that during the last few years the parish of St. Mary, Islington, had rapidly increased in population, which now amounted to 130,000. The office of superintendent of births, marriages, and deaths for such a parish was a most important one, and yet a gen - tleman had been appointed who was eighth assistant clerk in the General Registrar's office. Mr. WALPOLE admitted that the hon. gentleman was right in saying that the office of superintendent-registrar in a large parish was one of very c on -id era ble importance. He undrstood that the duties could be very well performed in those hours in which Mr. IVyatt's attendance was not required at Somerset-house. The Registrar-General took very great interest in this matter, and he was certainly one of the most deserving public servants he knew. In taking this step he had rewarded a meritorious clerk in his office. In doing that he had but followed out precedents,. and supposing the appointment in this case a good one, and that the duties of both offices could be adequately discharged by one person, it would not be reasonable to disturb the arrangements. He (Mr. Walpole) had insti tuted inquiries, and he found that Mr. Wyatt was a very meritorious public servant, and that his services deserve to be rewarded. That reward had been given in a way he himself did not exactly approve, but still there were prece dents for it in Clorkenweli, where a very good appoint ment had been made, and in other parishes. His prede cessor in office (Sir G. Grey) did not -as a general rule ap prove of such appointments, and he (Mr. Walpole) thought that, as a general rule, such appointments should not be made in future. Accordingly, he had written to say that although this case must not be disturbed, he must request Major Graham, the head of the department, not to make such appointments except on special grounds which had been submitted to the Secretary of State. (Hear.) HAINAULT FOREST. Mr. CAIRD rose to correct some misrepresentations which had prevailed in reference to a speech made by him on a former evening, and was reading some statistics in reference to Hainault Forest, when The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER called him to order on the ground that he had no right to refer to a debate of a former night. The SPEAKER said he understood that the hon. mem ber wished to make a statement upon some personal mat ter, but to refer to a previous debate would be transgress ing the rules of order. Mr. CAIRD proceeded to refer to some contradictions which had been made on the subject of his statistics by Mr. Hamilton on a previous night, and was about to prove his accuracy by some documentary evidence and by a map which ho produced. Me. HAMILTON said he did not wish to prevent the hon. gentleman from going on, but if he persisted of course he (Mr. Hamilton) must snake a reply. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had no wish to interfere between the hon. gentleman and his personal statement, but he could not see that the hon. gen tleman's personal honour was concerned because one of his statistical facts was not properly appreciated by the house. This matter might lead to a lengthened controversy, and ' it was not correct to view this as in any way a personal matter. Mr. CAIRD said he would take another opportunity of bringing the matter before the house. (Hear.) GUANO. Mr. CAIRD put a question to the Government in refe rence to the Peruvian guano monopoly. He said that since he had put his motion on the paper he understood that the Peruvian Government had reduced the price of their guano by a guinea a tog. But he wished to know whether it ought not be represented to the Peruvian Government that we were paying more for this guano than the United States. Mr. W. S. FITZGERALD said he was not surprised at the question of the hon. gentleman who had taken so deep an interest in agriculture. The subject was doubt less one of importance, and he had that day received a communication on the subject from the Peruvian Govern ment. The complaint the hon. gentleman made was that the price charged to consumers in this country was too high, and that a higher price was charged to consumers here than was charged to the United States. Thera were certain circumstances affecting the consumption of this article which must not be forgotten, viz , that the interest on the )Peruvian bonds were chargeable on this guano. lie had received a communication from the Peruvian Govern ment that day, stating that the price would be reduced fram 13/. 15s. a ton to 121. ls. a ton ; and, in the second place, that the same price would be charged to us as was charged to the United States. 4That would save this coun try a sum of 400,000/. (Hear.) STATE OF THE 'THAMES—BATTERSEA PARK. Mr. H. BERKELEY asked tba Chief Commissioner of Works the followin g question :—Whether he had received any communicationf from the Metropolitan Board of Works respecting the main drainage of the metropolis— and, if so, requested that he would state whether the outfall of the sewage be proposed to take place on the north side at Bark ing Creek, nearly opposite to the Arsenal at Woolwich, or where? The hon. member stated that a very stron g opinion prevailed out of doors that on the very important question of thejstate of the Thames there existed great apathy on the part of the house—(a laugh) - and on the part of the Go vernment, who ought to have come down to the house, have taken the initiative, and have asked for plenary powers, and grappled with this great evil. If the matter were not dealt with ibefore Parliament rose, it would no doubt be red-taped and hung up, and perhaps not dealt with at all. He was surprised at the silence of the metro politan members—(a laugh)—and still more surprised at the opinion of those members, who seemed to think that the matter should bo dealt with locally and not nationally. The people had a right to require that the question should be dealt with by the nation. If Governmenb came to the house for plenary powers they could do infinitely more than all the boards together. Their legislation, in part, if not wholly, had caused this evil. Some years ago the members of bath houses found their olfactory nerves much affected by the nuisance of night carts; that was about the time of the reign of Mr. Chadwick, who was considered an autho rity for everything. Among the powers entrusted to him was that of preventing night -carts from coming " Between the wind and their nobility." (Laughter.) What was the consequence ? Why, that the ordure of this great city was conveyed away not in carts, but Chadwick and the House of Commons plunged 100,000 cesspools into the 'flames. The stuff was there out of sight, and the House of Commons and the House of Lords never for one moment fancied that there were poor inhabi tants on the banks of the Thames who could not get away from the nuisance. If extraordinary heat had not pre vailed and the noses of hon. members been affected the matter might never have been considered. When they were affected it was astonishing to see hon. gentlemen who had been parties to throwing this filth into the river, turn ing round and saying, " God bless roe, where can it come from?" (Laughter.) And then they said, " What is the Board at Westminster doing ; what are they doing in the City of London ; has the Lord Mayor got into Petticoat lane ?" (Loud laughter.) It was necessary that they should ei 101 l power to counteract this evil. He appealed to them on belieir ;Let, ef the 11,1.11,4 of the river whose noses were forced to be continually 11l toe awc.l, who could not go to their country houses and to the moors. There were also the merchants and bankers who were tied down to their places in the city. Ile trusted that the Government would give some promise that before the house rose they would ask for those powers which they ought to be proud on this occasion to demand. It was a e j uestion which the Government should be ready to meet. Let flew prove their utility. They were a weak Govern ment, and they would strengthen themselves if they met this evil. If they did lot do so, they would deserve the contempt they would area with from every class of the community. Mr. GLADSTONE sad that before the question was an swered he could not heir saying a word as to the arrange meats connected with this matter. A short time ago an hog. gentleman connected with an importantdistrict of the metropolis gave notice h© would bring this subject under the consideration of the house. He wished to know from whence the funds were toproceed by which this great work was to be accomplished ? The hon. and talented member (Mr. Belk; ley) had said that he had met persons who asked whence this smell proceeded. Now he himself had not met any person who was sceptcal on that subject--(a laugh) though he had met men who were much in doubt as to whence the funds were to come to cure this smell. He would put it to the hon, gentleman and to the Government and the house if the matter was so free from doubt, so very clear. A day should be fixed at once, if possible, for the purpose of discussiug the mitten The subject was not less urgent than it was said to te. First, there was the great question of the mechanical sael material means for curing time evil ; and then there was the second question, from what funds was the mirk to be done. On the last question he entertained a decided opiuion—an opinion, he thought, not in unison with that of the bon. gentleman. The im portant question was, wore the people of London to pay the a et of their own drainage, as other places in England, whether wealthy or poor, did. There remained behind a very important question as to the local government of London, and in what condition that local government was to be placed if they called on London to do what was its duty in this respect. Ho might be excused from making a strong appeal to the Government to give an early day, be fore any great dispersion of, members took place, for dis cussing the question of the hon. member for Finsbury. Mr. ALCOCK rose to call the attention of her Majesty's Government to the expediency of ascertaining the value of the surplus land at Battersea-park, with the view of apply. ing the produce of such surplus land (IGO acres) to the payment of the principal motley and interest, amounting in all to a balance of 281,7301. 9s. due to Government iu respect of Battersea-park, Chelsea-bridge, and the em bankatent of the Thames at Chelsea ; and to submit that Chelsea-bridge be opened to the public toll free, and was entering into some details about the matter, when Mr. FITZROY rose to order. There was a bill relating to the tolls on Chelsea-bridge, which was read a first time last night, and which stood on the orders for committal ; and it was therefore irregular to enter on the discussion of the matter now. (Hear.) The SPEAKER said the conclusion of the motion was to submit that Chelsea-bridge should be open to the public toll-free. It would be irregular to discuss, on the question of adjournment, a subject on which there was a bill before the house ; and the hon. member must confine his observa tions to the latter part of his motion. Mr. ALCOCK then, amidst frequent calls of "Order," proceeded to refer to some figures connected with Batter sea-park and Chelsea-bridge ; and expressed his opinion that the surplus land would furnish the means of finding the necessary funds. Mr. P.F.NTINCK said it had been stated by the hon. toeiiiiko. . 1 "11 imp• „ i,l ins not a local question, and he joined issue witn the They had not been favoured with any argument to show that this was an imperial and not a local question. He believed it was a strictly local question. The government wore asked to apply for plenary powers ; but to do what ? why, to put their hands into people's pockets. It was a disgrace to the richest city in the world to hand round the begging box. He would not allow one shilling to be taken out of the pockets of his constituents if he could help it. Mr. CUBITT thought it was right that every town should pay for carrying away its own filth, but if they im posed that duty on the metropolis, they ought to leave it to the metropolis to say how it was to be done. (Hear, hear.) The house twelve years ago decided that every house should drain into the sewer, and every sower run into the Thames. Parliament compelled every house to drain into the river, and though there were sewers for forty miles along the banks of the Thames, they said the inhabitants of the metropolis should pay for cleansing the river. Lord J. MANNERS said if the hon. member (Alr.Berke ley) had been in his place at the Board of Works for only 21 hours, he would never have dreamed of charging apathy against the members of the house on this subject. The hon. gentleman was about the only one who had not within the last fortnight suggested some plan or other. (A laugh.) The hon. gentleman had come forward in a decided manner, not to say what ought to be done, but that the Government ought to be impeached if they did not do something. They were prepared to Lring before Parliament, at the very earliest opportunity, a measure to settle this long-standing and difficult question. He be lieved that to raise questions upon this subject now would only throw difficulties in the way of a subject essentially difficult at present. He had been asked whether the Board of Works had sent any scheme for his sanction. He could only say that the board did yesterday submit to him their plan, but of course he could not be expected to give any opinion on it at once. The point where the outfall was proposed to be by the plan was Barking-creek. Ho most respectfully declined to enter into the question whether the metropolis ought or ought not to pay for the drainage, for he thought that that question ought to be deferred till they produced the measure which they wore determined to produce at the earliest possible opportunity. CATHOLIC CHAPLAINS FOR THE TROOPS IN INDIA. Mr. DEASY rose to call the attention of the house to the arrangements now existinc , with respect to the provi sions for Roman Catholic chaplains for the troops serving in India ' • and to ask the President of th e B oa rd of Contr o l whether his attention had been called to that subject, as well as to the regulations respecting regimental schools and orphanages for the children of European soldiers in India, and whether it was intended to make any altera tions in those regulations which would make them more satisfactory to the Roman Catholic soldiers serving in that country. Lord STANLEY said the hon. and learned member was probably aware that with regard to one subject mentioned in his quostion, there had been an increase of pay and al lowances to Roman Catholic clergymen in India, so that it was nearly double what it used to be. There had, how ever, been some delay in complying with the orders sent out ; and no longer ago than the 24th of last month a de spatch of the Board of Control contained directions to the Government to carry into effect the regulations without delay. Mr. GREER referred to the case of Presbyterian soldiers in India, and intimated that next session he would enter into the matter fully. Lord J. MANNERS said, in reference to what Lad been said by the hon. member opposite, he was quite as anxious to sell the land in Battersea as be could be. DUBLIN POLICE BILL. Mr. COGAN appealed to the Secretary for Ireland not to press the Dublin Police Bill at this late period of the session. Lord NAAS said with respect to the Dublin Police Bill, it was their intention to press it. He believed that most of the objections which were entertained respecting it would vanish in the course of the discussion ; and that the rate-payers of Dublin would find that they had no reason to be dissatisfied with its provisions. THE DUCHY OF CORNWALL. Mr. A. SMITH begged to ask the Secretary to the Trea sury when copies of all the documents submitted to the Right Hon. Sir John Patteson, as arbitrator in a cause wherein the Attorney-General is the plaintiff, and his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, as Duke of Cornwall, a defendant, together with copy of the arbitration award thereon, would he laid on the table of the house? Mr. HAMILTON, in reply, said the documents would be published on an early day, and placed in the hands of members. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUE k, in answer to a question by Mr. Horsman, said he would not ask the house to meet to•morrow (Saturday) to discuss the India Bill in committee ; neither would he ask the house to hold a morning sitting on Monday ; bat he proposed that the houso should go into committee on the Lill on Monday evening. OUR RELATIONS WITH FRANCE. 11Ir. WHITE wished to know from the right hon. gen tle:l:an the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether those friendly relations between this country and Franca, which the sight hon. gentleman, on the 4th of May last, stated then existed, wer4 still maintained between the Cabinets of the two countries, and whether he would state how things stood in reference to the Danubian provinces ? The CHANCELLOR of 1113 EXCHEQUER, in answer _ . _ to the hon. member for Plymouth, said the Conferencts in Paris were still sitting on the question of the Danubian provinces. He might state that friendly relations existed between the two Cabinets. It was arranged that the proceedings of the Conference should be secret, and they were so, us far as he knew; and that being so, he was quite sure the hon. member would not wish him to violate that which it was agreed should be kept secret while the Conference was sitting. (Hear.) PUBLIC HEALTH. Lord EBRINGTON expressed a hope that hon. mem bers would not hurry out of town in reference to their own health, while the bills in reference to the public health and local management referring to the health of the country generally, were yet to be considered. SCOTCH UNIVERSITIES. - . ------. Mr. WALPOLE said, if any considerable progress should be made in committee on the India Bill on Monday evening, he hoped to be able on that evening to go on with the Scotch Universities Bill; and if not, he hoped they would be able to go on with the bill on Tuesday. The motion f or adjournment was then withdrawn. GOVERNMENT OF INDIA. The house then resolved itself into committee on the Government of India Bill. On clause 19, relating to the duties of the council, Mr. VERNON SMITH referred to the manner in which matters were carried on by the Secret Committee of the Court of Directors, and said, in his oFinion, it would be better to adopt the words of the act of 1833, which referred to the department of the Secretary of State. Lord STANLEY said the right hon. gentleman mis apprehended the clause, for its only object was to point out the duties respectively of the Secretary of State and the council, in convection with the correspondence. Col. SYKES asked if the noble lord intended that a despatch should have the signature of the Secretary of State only? Lord STANLEY—The secretary of State only. After a few words from Mr. WILLOUGHBY, the clause was agreed to. On clause 20 being proposed, empowering the Secretary of State to divide the council into committees, Sir E. PERRY objected to the clause. He thought that every member of the committee should be prohibited from any connection with banking or mercantile business of any kind whatever. Lord STANLEY said that no absolute rule was laid down, but it was expected that the members should give up to the business of the council as much of their time as was deemed necessary. Mr. V. SMITH thought the question a most important one, and the answer to it not at all satisfactory. If these committees were occupied daily, they would not have much time for other matters ; but a minute ought to be made on the subject if words to the purpose could not be put into the act. He suggested also that instead of the business being divided into six, it should be rather into three de partments. LordSTANLEY' said the rule the house agreed to was, that the Minister should make the first arrangement, and thou the council should regulate for themselves. With respect to a minute being made, they could outdo so before hand, and before they knew what would be absolutely necessary. Col. S'iLi"K ES thought the Secretary of State would have a right to oxpect that a majority of the council should at „,„l hey wOl - 1111 tirul plenty of busioesq to tran sact. The clause was the❑ agreed to. On clauso 21 being proposed, appointing the president chairman of the council, and, in his absence, the vice president, Sir E. COLEBROOK moved to insert the words, " or in the absence of the secretary, a member chosen by them selves." Mr. AYRTON thought the alteration totally unneces sary, but he suggested that, in the absence of the Secretary of State, the under-secretary should fill hia place. The amendrLent was then negatived without a division. The clause, as amended, was agreed to, al were also clauses 23, 24, 25, and 26. On clause 27 being proposed, Sir G. C. LEWISsaid this clause proposed to renew, in a varied form, the powers of the secret committee. If the proposed council were to consist of a sma ll er num ber be should have no objection to the abolition of a secret com mittee. it ought to be distinctly understood, however, that the powers of the secret committee would not be strained, and that it should be as little resorted to as pos sible. Mr. R. D. MANGLES said the Government of India bad the power of communicating with the secret committee on any subject whatever under the act of DM. The effect of this had been very mischievous; for matters which all the world might have known with advantage bad been kept secret, and perhaps, the house did not know that for come years after the conquest cf Scinde the government of that province was under the secret committee, the Court of Di rectors knowing no more about it than did the Emperor of Russia. (Hear, hear.) He believed that the Court of Di rectors had shown themselves as competent to keep their secrets as any Cabinet of tier Majesty's Government was, whether Whig or Conser vative. His opinion was that if there were anything worth keeping secret, it would be so kept by.the council, if properly elected. Mr. AYRTON said they seemed called upon to take a course on the present occasion, iu reference to the secret committee, calculated in its nature to censure the Court of Directors in recalling the Earl of Ellenbc.rough, an act which he thought was a very wise and a very proper on e . He thought it necessary that they should now define whe ther the Secretary of State should have the power of send ing out any despatch which be should not be bound to communicate to the secret committee without the notice laid down in the 21st clause. He therefore begged to sub mit to the noble lord the desirableness of his stiikiug out this clause, and establighing a provision giving full powers to the Secretary of State. Lord PALIII - ERSTON said ho was very anxious that the clause should retuain as it now stood in the bill. Who was the officer they wore dealing with ? Why, with the Secretary of State, to whom they should leave the full discretion now provided by the elauso. The clause pro vided that ho should be at liberty to exercise his judgment about communicating with his colleagues, and in his opinion he should be perfectly at liberty to do so, and to adopt the course which ho deemed most prudent. Mr. ROEBUCK said it appeared to him that the clause now under consideration seemed to be " the key-stone of the arch." Power was given to the Secretary of State to do three things, the last of which was that "he might do what he liked," Now that arrangement was, in fact, creating what they were most anxious to ,get rid of, namely, a "double Government." They wore led to that course by their own " cowardice." In his opinion they should give up their council, and confer full powers on the Secretary of State. Colonel SYKES had a motion on the paper for striking out this elanse. The hon. and gallant colonel referred to the operations of the secret committee' when he was a can't of Directors. What, he asked, was it, that led to the ..tulgirLin :1.,1„::! et .1 . 1"),OCO human beings, and expenditure of 15,000,000 t., but the act of the secret committee ? and what also was it that led to the Burmese and Seikli wars, loss of life, and vast expendi ture of money. Lut the act of the secret committee, and that without consulting the Court of Directors? Mr. V. SIIITII said the powers of the Secretary of State should be more clearly defined, and he did hope they would give the Secretary of State the power to negotiate with foreign States, and to deal with questions of peace and war, without the sanction of the council. They should give the Secretary of State the power which it was the object of the bill to give him. Sir E. COLEBROOK said it would be most dangerous to take from Parliament the responsibility which belonged to it, and throw it upon the council. The real check against such wars as the Affghan war should be in Parlia ment. Mr. C. FORTESCUE thought it would be wrong to let the Secretary of State negotiate, with foreign States, and to decide on questions of peace or war without the know ledge of the council. He had placed ou the paper an amend ment to the effect that the Vice-President for the time being, and such two other members of the council as the Secretary of State should determine, should be a secret committee of council. Lord STANLEY did not think such an amendment would secure the object of the hon. member. Such a check would be illusory, and would only diminish the responsi bility of the Secretary of State. The taking of the powers of a secret committee was a necessary evil. These powers were well defined in the act which had been referred to, though they had possibly been abused or exceeded. Af 601 r a few words from Mr. R. D. MANGLES, Lord J. RUSSELL said he could imagine in cases of a mixed Indian and European war the Secretary of State could act without the sanction of the council. But the pre sent case was a different one. They had determined upon having a council of men expel ienced in Indian affairs; and yet in the 27th clause it was proposed that in the matters of most importance the Secretary of State should act with out the knowledge of the council. It appeared to him that this proposition was at variance with the rest of the act. The policy to be pursued tows, ds native princes was one of the most important matters in connection with the govern ment of India, and the advice of the council should be ob tained in such a matter. The council ought to bo as well entrusted with the policy in India as the Secretary of State himself, for their advice would be most valuable. He could not imagine but that a council of 15 would not be fully competent to give proper adviceto a Minister with respect to India; and on that account they ought at all times be made aware of what was about to be clone re specting that country. In a case of war or an expenditure of a large sum of money, the council ought to he consulted and their opinion taken. They would have no barrier so good to prevent war in India as to consult this council and take their opinion before any steps were taken. He should certainly, for all these reasons, vote for the amend ment. The committee then divided, when thr numbers were— For the amendment Against it Majority - —24 The clause was then agreed to. On clause 29 being proposed, Sir E. PERRY proposed to insert the words, "and the appointments of lieutenant-governor of provinces or terri tories, and the appointments of members of the council of the Governor-General of India, and of the several pre sidencies." At present these appointments were in the hands of the Governor-General, but that clause vested them in the majority of the council. He thought that all patronage should be taken from them, for under the old systam that was the greatest blot ou the government of the Board of Directors. They ought to throw it open to public competition, and not leave it in the hands of any body. It would be better to place it even in the hands of the Minister than leave it to the council. Lord STANLEY said the matter referred to had nothing to do with the question now before the house. Mr. VERNON SMITH assured the noble lord that the act which ho was about to propose had been in the plan contained in the bill of the noble lord the member for Tiverton, and in the first bill of the present Government, providing that the presidential council should be estab lished by the Governor-General and the governors of presi dencies. Lord STANLEY thought there was much to be said on the subject, but the course proposed would be intolerable, and the element of independence of the council would en tirely lose its character. Sir ERSKINE PERRY thought that all the appoint ment., whether of Governor-General or G overnors o f Presidencies, ought to be left in the hands of the Secre tary of State. Lord STANLEY explained, and said the most desirable course was to adhere to the mode proposed. Mr. J. P. WILLOUGHBY was of opinion that of all the provisions which the noble lord proposed in the bill this was the most import ant., and it ought to be dealt with with mature consideration.. Mr. J. WILSON said the feelings of the civil service in India were, to his knowledge, quite the reverse of what the noble lord stated. A conversation ensued, in which Mr. Vernon Smith (who was of opinion that the Judicial Legislative Council might be got rid of, and the salaries of 10,0001. a year be saved), Mr. Mangles, Mr. Fortescue, and Lord Stanley took part, and clause 29, as amended, was ordered to stand part of the bill. Clause 30 was agreed to. On clause 31 being proposed, referring to competitive examinations for appointments in India, Sir E. PERRY submitted that it would be better if the noble lord would lay down the same rule for the civil ser vice in relation t. competitive examinations, that he laid down for the military, and he begged to move an amend ment to that effect. Lord STANLEY said the clause had been drawn up under loga,l advice. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL explained the principles upon which the clause was drawn up, and said the Secretary of State was merely put in the same position that the Court of Directors weroin with respect to the appointments. The Court of Directors were bound by the act, and the Secre tary of State should be also bound by it. After some further conversation, in which Lord Stanley, Lord Goderich, and the Solicitor-General took part, Sir E. PERRY consented to withdraw his amendment, and the clause, as amended, was ordered to stand part of the bill. On the question being put that clause 32, as amended, should be agreed to, Mr. CAMPBELL thought it would be a dangerous thing to allow the council to exercise patronage. Sir DE LACY EVANS was of opinion that the patron age should be vested in the Secretary of St ate for India. Mr. T. BARING thought that the house and the coun try would look with great jealousy upon their giving all the patronage to the Secretary of State. The Court of Directors !had never used patronage for a political pur pose. Cquld the same thing be said if they permitted all the patronage to be exercised by the Secretary of State? The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the discussion upon patronage would come on, upon clauses which were yet to be proposed. The clause, as amended, was then agreed to, as was also clause 33. Clause 31 was struck out. On clause 36 being proposed, Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wanted to know what was to be tho position of creditors of the East India Company, as the bill would transfer the property of the Company to the Govornrnent. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the position of the creditors would ba the same as it was for merly. The change was simply a change of trustees. The clause was then agreed to. On clause 37 being proposed, Mr. WILLOUGHBY moved an amendment to the effect that the new Government of India should bear the debts and liabilities of the East India Company. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought it better if the words were introduced in bringing up the report, and he should then have no objection. Mr. 'WILLOUGHBY withdraw his amendment, in order to comply with the hon. and learned gentleman's suggestion. The clause was then agreed to. oWelausediibeing proposed, Mr. WILLOUGHBY proposed to leave out, after "chargeable on the revenues of India," the word "alone," the object of which was, that the public cr e dit or s h ou ld not be placed in a worse position when the transfer of the Government of India took place to the Crown than they now were. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained, and expressed a hope that the committee would retain the Maw() fig it stood, inasmuch as it would give the public its, "at br , rinaonapn,l b e f,„, A conversation ensued, in which ME. “L(.l the SOLICITOR-GENERAL took part, and in which Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said the matter was a very grave one, and not, in his opinion, to be disposed of in the manner in which the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer dealt with it. Would the public creditor have the same security under the bill that he now had ? The right hon. gentleman said he would, but ho (Sir 11. Willoughby) thought otherwise, and that the bond debt would not be secured by the bill as it was at present con stituted. Mr. S. WORTLEY could not agree in the views ex pressed by his hon. and learned friend the Solicitor-Gene ral with deg and to the provisions of the clause. Mr. CARDWELL considered the point at issue be tween the lion. and learned gentleman the Solicitor-Gene ral, and the hon. gentleman the member for Bute, was ono which turned upon mere verbal construction. They could make no law for India if such arguments as those used by the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer were adopted. Th©y should make the clause so free from all ambiguity, that the property which was passing under this act into the hands of the Crown should not be free from the liabilitio.4 to which it was now snbjrct. The clause was th€n agreed to, as were clauses up to clause 43. On clans 41 being proposed, Mr. MOFFATT begged to move, as an amendment, that no large sums of money should he paid away until an order for the payment was signed by throe members of the council. Such was the practice in this country in all great establishments when large sums of money were being paid away. Lord STANLEY read the clause, which said that no money could be paid away without the concurrence of a majority of the members of the council. Mr. MOFFATT expressed himself satisfied with the ex planation, and the amendment was accordingly withdrawn, and the clauses agreed to, as were clauses up to, and inclu sive of, clause 47. Clause 4S and 49 were agreed to. Clause 50 was struck out. The remaining clauses of the bill were then agreed to. It was then proposed to add new clauses, and on the first one being proposed, Sir E. PERRY submitted that at that late hour it wa impossible the clauses could be properly discussed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the object iu bringing up the clauses now was, that they might be printed with the bill, and on the bringing up of the report on Monday the clauses could be fully discussed. Sir E. PERRY reiterated his objection, and moved that the Chairman should report progress. Mr. WALPOLE appealed to the hon. and learned gen tleman to take the discussion on bringing up the report. The motion was, howeve r , put amuegatived without a division. Mr. LOWE objected to farther progress that night. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he did not mean to discuss the new clauses then, but he wished to have them printed with the bill, and to have the discussion on bringing up the report. Lord PALMERSTON was sure the right hon. gentle man would see there was a very material difference between discussing clauses in committee and in the bringing up of a report, and he thought, therefore, the objections raised were not unreasonable. They sat from twelve o'clock that morning, and under such circumstances, the chairman ought to be allowed to report progress. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed to print the clauses, and on bringing up the report on Monday, every gentleman would have an opportunity of making their speeches on each clause. (A laugh.) fir E. PERRY said that one of the clauses was a most important cue, arid he Lo v ,d the committee would b'3 ad journed to Monday. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that he had uo objection to do it, as it seemed to be the general wish of the house. - The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the house i esnmcd. The house then went into committee on the Sale and Transfer of Land (Ireland) Bill. Clauses 61 and 62 were agreed to. On clause 63 being proposed, Mr. BAGWELL moved that the Chairman report pro gress, but the amendment was negatived without a divi sion, end the clause agreed to. Clauses 6 1 to 87 wera agreed to, after which the Chair man reported progress, and the house resumed. The Local Government Bill was postponed to Monday. The house next went into committee on the Four Courts Dublin Extension Bill, when tho several clauses were agreed to. Corrupt Practices PreventiOn Bill was read a second time, and the committee adjourned to Friday. The Herring Fishing (Scotland) Bill was read a third time. MARRIAGE LAW AMENDMENT ACT. Viscount BURY proposed that it be read a third time. Mr. B. HOPE did not intend to go into any discussion then on the bill, but he protested against it in the name of the people of England, and was determined to take the sense of the house on it. He moved that it be read a third time that cl ty three months. The house divided— For the third reading Against it Majority LUNATICS (SCOTLAND) AMENDMENT ACT. The LORD ADVOCATE moved for leave to bring in a bill to amend the Lunatics (Scotland) Act Bill, passed in the last session, for the regulation and treatment of luna tics, anti for the provision, maintenance, and regulation of lunatic asylums in Scotland. Leave was given, and the bill was brought in and'read a first time. The other business on tho paper having been disposed of, the house adjourned at a quarter past one o'clock. Country Markets. LIVERPOOL. JULY 2. The market this moraing had only a moderate attendant• of buyers, and the business was scarcely up to the average ; prices of wheat, however, improved ou the lower qualities ld to 2d per bushel, and Gd per barrel and sack on flour. No other change worthy of note. WAKEFIELD-JULY 2. A fair amount of business to-day, though wheat is is to 2s higher than last Friday. Grinding barley, beaus, and peas each is dearer. Oats and shelling are also advancing in price. AVRRAGRS FOR TUB WEIDE. RNDING JUNZ 28, 1858. Wheat 2093 quarters, at 42s 10d Barley — PI s Od Oats — ~ —a Od ~ Beaus 3O 4ls 4d Peas — „ —s Od EXETER-JULY 2. CORN.—Wheat, 5s Gd to 5s 9d ; barley, 4s to 4s 3d ; grinding do., Os Od to Os Od. O a t s , 2 s 6d t o 2 s 9d. Beans, Os 0,1 to 0 Od. Peas, 00s Od to 00s Od. FLOUR.—Fine, 30s Od to 31s Od ; seconds. 29s Od to 30s Od per sack. CATTLE..—There was a poor supply of bullocks. Best beef, from 980 d to lOs Od per score ; inferior, 7s to 88 per score; fat calves, 4d to 51 per lb ; barrenners, 6s Gd to 7+ Gd. per score ; cows and calves, 121. to 181. Us ; butchers' calves, Od to 7d per lb., rearing calves —s to —s each; sheep, awes and lambs, 21.5 s to 21. 15s per couple; ewes, Od to 6td ; wethers, 7d —d; lambs, 61d told per lb. Pigs, large size, —s to —8; second size, —s to —8 ; slips, —5 to —s ; suckers, —s to —B. Rough fat, 4d per lb. Pork carcases from 8s Od to 8s Gd per score. BRISTOL SUGAR-JULY 2. The market has been very dna this week, and to effect sales of importance lower prices would have to bo submitted to. Refiners' produce steady at about former prices, except. ing for stove dried goods, which are perhaps rather easier. Rum dull, but prices about supported. 143.-JuLy 2. the close of the market Welland, &a. 8. et. Hetton l6 6 Lambton 16 0 Toes l6 6 Braddyli l5 0 Brown's Moor Haigh Main l3 6 Keiper Graingo l5 9 South Hetton 16 3 Eden Main l4 6 Hilda 13 0 Whitworth l4 6 Hough Hall 14 6 Powell's Duffryn Steam 20 6 Nixon's Duffryn. 20 6 West Hetton 14 6 'Closforth l3 6 —Sold, 56. COAL &Alt, Prices of Coals per ton al S. d. Middle W. Hartley l5 6 Babside W. Hartley l5 6 Grey's West Hartley l4 9 Howard's West Hartley Netherton 15 3 Holywell l4 6 Iforpeth West Hartley 14 6 Wallsend, Acorn Close l4 6 1 Benson 14 0 Eden Stewm t's ll 6 Russell's Hutton 14 9 Haswell 16 6 South Kelloo 16 6 Riddoll l3 6 Ships at market COURSE OF E2CCHANGE.—YESTERDAY. Am5terdam............ 11 15 1 4 Gibraltar .. •• Ditto, three months .. 11 1756 Leghorn .. •• ••.• •• • 29 75 Rotterdam ............ 11 17% Genoa Antwerp ••••••••••• • •• 25 35 Milan •••••••••• •• •• •• Brussels .• •• ••••••••• • 25 35 Venice •. •.•• •• ••• •• Bamburgh •• •• •• .• •• 13 7 , Napler. -• ••••••••• • • • •• 41!‘ Altona .. ••••••.•.• •• .• . • Palermo •••• 12536 Paris • • • • .... 25 7 54 Messina .. • ... 125% Do. three months .. .. 25 32y. Lisbon .. •••• 82 Srarselllea ........ 25 35 Oporto ..............•• 521 i Bourdeaux ••••• • .• • •IRio Janeir0........ .... ..... . •• Frankfort-on-Maine •••• 1185{ Buenos Ayres... ..... .„ New York,6o days' sight Vienna..........••.... 10 27 Philadelphia ....... Triesto.• •• ..... •••• • .. 10 28 moss OP BULLION. PER Oit Petersburg 35'g Foreign Gold in Bars £3 17 9 49 1 4 Portugal Gold Coin -. 0 0 0 Cadiz •.••••••• • • • • ••1 • 49% Mexican Dollars •• •• 0 0 0 Barcelona •• •• •• •• •... • • New Dollars 0 0 0 Seville • ...... • • ...... ,Silver In bars • ..... 0 0 0 [ADVERTISEMENT.] -Du Barry's delicious Revslenta Arabica Food saves fifty times its cost in other remedies, and cures indigestion (dyspepsia), habitual constipation, nervousness, biliousness, and liver complaints, flatulency, distension, acidity, heartburn, palpitation of the heart, nervous headaches, hysteria, neuralgia, noises in the head and ears, pains at the pit of the stomach and between the shoulders, erysipelas, eruptions of the skin, impurities and poverty of the blood, scrofula, cough, asthma, con sumption, dropsy, rheumatism, gout, nausea and sickne ss during pregnancy, after eating, or at sea, low. spirits, spasms, cramps, epileptic fits, spleen, general debility, inquietude, sleeplessness, involuntary blushing, paralysis, tremors, dis like to society, unfitness for study, loss of memory, delu sions, vertigo, blood to the head, exhaustion, melancholy, groundless fear, indecision, wretchedness. It is, more over, the best food for infants and invalids generally, as it never turns acid on the weakest stomach, nor in. terferes with a good liberal diet, but imparts a healthy relish for lunch and dinner, and restores the faculty of diges. tion, and nervous and muscular energy to the most enfeebled, Supported by testimonials from the following celebrated Pro. fessors of Chemistry: Dr. A. Ure; Dr. Shorland; Dr. Harvey; Dr. Campbell ; Dr. Gattiker ; Dr. Wurzer ; Dr. Ingram ; Lord Stuart de Decks: the Dowager Countess of Castlestuart; Major Gan. Thomas King, and many other respectable per sons, whose health has been restored by it, after all other means of cure had failed. Suitably packed with full instruct Cons, In canisters, 11b. 2s, 9d,; 21b. 4s. 6d.; 61b. lls. ; 121 b. 225. The 121 b canisters are sent carriage free on re• ceipt of Post-office order. Barry Du Barry, and Co., 77 . Regent-street, London. Important Caution against the fear. fal dangers of spurious imitations.—The Vice-Chancellor Sic William Page Wood granted an Injunction on the 10th March, 1854, against Alfred Hooper Nevill for imitating "Du Barry's Revalenta Arabica Focd." B I R T.ll BARRY- On the lat inst., at 5, Woburn-place, Russell square, the wife of Charles Barry, Esq., of a daughter. CAVAN—On the Ist inst., at 8, Park-crescent, Portland -1,!:.oe, the wifo of Lieu►enant-Colonel Cavan, of a daughter. MACKINTOSH—On the 21st ult., at Raigmore, near Inver nesP, tho wife of Eneas W. Mackintosh, Esq., of Reiff. more, of a sou. THORNTON—Oa the 2d inst. at Battersea-rise, the wif e o f Henry Sykes Thornton,. inst., of a daughter. MARRIAGES, MAYNE—FORSTER—On the lit inst., at St. Mary's, Bryan stou-square, Taylor Lombard Mayne, Esq., Captain Bth Hussars, to Mary Margaret Charlotte, daughter of Col. Forster, Deputy Adjutant-General. WILDER—CHRTSTIE -On the Ist inst., at St. George's, llanover-square, the Rev. Henry B ea nfoy Wilder, o f suiham, Berks, to A ugus t a, younge A daughter of Lung barn Christie, Esq., of Preston Deanery, Northampton shire. D E A T,Il S. BLOMFIELD —On the 30th ult., at Brighton, Sir Thomas Win. Elm:add, Bart., aged 67. DUNDAS—On the 29th ult., G. James L., third son of the - Ilon. J. C. Duudas. FORSTER—on the Ist inst., at West Cowes, William .Tohn Forster, Esq., of Tynemouth, Northumberland, aged J. L EAcinfA g—On the 30th ult., at 20, Compton-terrace, i:0.d1eiw ,. 2t , 6 , 7 , Mr. Edward Lem:llllmi, of Ockbrook, Derby, a AfAcKINTOSII—On the 2lst ult., at Raigmore, near Inver ness, the infant son of aeas W. Mackintosh, Esq., of R.igmore. PARKER - On the Ist inst., atWhitoway, Devon, Montagu Edmund Newcombe Parker, Esq., formerly M.P. for the Southern Division of Devon. WARREN tho Ist inst., ut 40, Onslow-square, Bromp ton, Walter Gilbert, the son of Majoi-General George Warren. f , oiiDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG , of 110. 112, Strand, Printer, at Tie Sun Onion. 110 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county of Middlesex, Satur lay, July 3, 1858, r I iikai THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 3, 1858 I I