The Sun. — London, England, 1858-04-27 00:00:00

awaited hiss. He remained in the house of Commons, of which he was one of the brightest ornaments, and to which he was fondly attached ; but he found the can duct of public business here incompatible with the pro per discharge of the duties he owed to his constituents at Liverpool. He accordingly resigned his seat for that, town and sought and obtained the confidence of another constituency. Whom did the freemen of Liverpool elect in his stead I No less distinguished a personage than Mr. Huskiseon, a gentleman in every way qualified to be a member of an Indian Council. (Hear.) I heard a great deal the other night of the merits of Lord Canning. I am not prepared upon the present occasion to enter into any controversy on that subject, but, be the merits of Lord Canning what they may, it is quite certain that he would never have been Governor-General of India had the freemen of Liverpool not elected his father so their representative in Parliament. (Cries of Ok, and laughter.) I ase afraid I have been misunderstood, It is not my intention to sneer at Lord Canning ; all that I mean to say is that the career of Mr. Canning natu rally led to the position which his son now occupies. (Hear.) But be that as it may, I think lam fairly en titled to question the fairness or propriety of the manner in which we are accustomed to speak of the constituencie s of England. Ido not arrogate for those whom I repre sent any superiority over the rest of the community, but I think the house will agree that those who are interested in the cultivation of the land are a class highly rospec table—(a laugh) —a class that for their private virtues, their public spirit, and their stake in the country as the principal employers of labour, must be recogni.ed by all men in their calmer moments as constituting one cf the best securities of social order. (Hear.) But if an agricul tural constituency happen in a sharp contest, exhibiting a good deal of feeling and acting under the influence of considerable excitement, to elect a particular candidate as their representative in Parliament, what do we find? They are described as serfs, denounced as the instruments of feudal tyranny, and the most skil ful cultivators of the soil are called ignorant and obtuse. Such is the manner in which one portion of the constituencies are treated. Again, upon similar occasions the electors who live in towns and cities are represented as absolute traitors, the would-be destroyers of our insti tutions, while the poor freemen are generally regarded as the pariahs of politics. (Hear, hear.) If such be the character of the constituencies of England, what must we be who are their choice? (A. laugh.) I have no doubt myself—and I think upon reflection every per son must agree with me—that the vast majority of our constituencies, whatever instances there may be of cor ruption or of intimidation, are actuated upon ad occa sions by a strict sense of duty and a strong feeling of patriotism. (Hear.) If not, what hope can there be for the country (Cheers.) My opinion is that, if our position for giving to five great towns the right of elect ing councillors foe Lille had not been arrested by a storm of prejudice, the electors of those important corn . munities would have acted, as the people , f England always act, under the fair and generous guidance of their natural leaders, and would have chosen men who would have done credit to their constituents, and rendered great services to the State. (Hear, hear.) Nor has anything that I have yet heard induced tee to falter in the conviction that our proposition was a wise one, and I entertain the firm belief that hereafter it will be so re garded. (Hear, hear.) But let me revert to the subject more strictly before the house. If you are to have a council for India, how can you form it unless y ou h ave partial recourse to the elective principle ? You may extend the application of that principle in various ways, but the recognition of it as a principle of construction I defy you to renounce, without renouncing the very means by which you make a council numerous, learned, fn!l of experience, of high character and distinction, and capa ble of guiding any Minister, however undivided his au thority or sole his responsibility, with advantage and safety to the empire. (Cheers.) Such is the proposal you have before you. All other subjects are but of secondary, though still of great importance. The dis tribution of patronage, the forms of procedure, the question whether you can send commissions to investi gate the finances of India—and our plan for ouch an investigation was matured and complete —are points comparatively of detail ; but it would be impossible to exaggerate the importance of the question, whether or not you will have a real Council for India in England. (Hear, hear.) If the resolutions which we have laid upon the table, or the spirit of them, be adopted—modi fled, perhaps, in some parts or expanded in others—we do not despair of constructing a bill which will secure the good government of India, as far as it can be carried on in England. But if the resolutions are not adopted, or even the spirit of them—if prejudice, imperfect know ledge, or political combinations arrest their course—let me entreat the house to tike the great Indian question out of the dangerous sphere of political passion and party conflict. (Cheers.) Unless you can constitute a Council equal in knowledge and experience to the pre sent Court of Directors, while free from its failings, I advise you not to relinquish a machinery by which India has already been governed, and which has to deal with interest more vast and various than many persons imagine. If you reject the resolutions which we have laid before yon, and which if carried out would create a body capable of controlling the Government of India —if you take the contrary course, and adopt the prin ciples of that school of barren simplicity to which I have already referred, accepting a proposition like that of the late Government, which only veils the hideous dangers which such a scheme of policy would inevitably bring about—depend upon it that the fate of your Indian Empire is sealed, and you will deserve to lose it, because you will arrogantly declare your intention to govern it without knowledge and without experience. (Cheers.) Lord PALMERSTON—Anybody who had ewer-so:1 the house without knowing the business of the evening and listened to the eloquent speech of the right hon. gen tleman, would naturally have inferred that he was mot s ing the second reading of the India Bill No. 2. (A laugh.) The able and elaborate speech which we have just heard contained hardly anything applicable to the motion before the House, but the whole, or at least the greater part of it, was devoted to a vindication of the unfortunate measure to which I have referred. Following the example of those eloquent men on the other side of the Channel whose harangues upon certain mournful occasions we have heard or read with great admiration, the right hon. gentleman has pronounced a funeral oration upon the deceased India Bill No. 2 (laughter) ; but while the orators in France are ch :Ben from the friends of the dead, and bad, probably, paid to them daring their last illness all those cares and atten tions which the best medical skill could devise or the most anxious solicitude render, the right hon. gentleman has appeared as the murderer of the "dear departed" to whose eulogium we have just listened -with so much surprise and pleasure. (Laughter.) Strange that he should be the person to pronounce an unlimited pane gyric upon the victim of his own hands ! The right hon. gentleman, like. Antony, came to bury his Bill, and not to praise it, but carried away by his feelings he has treated us to an elaborate defence of a measure which, nevertheless, he has thought fit to abandon. (Cheers.) We have been assisting at a ,sort of Irish wake, The right hon. gentleman did not say or sing in the language of the afflicted peasant, " Och, hone, why did you die?" (great laughter) ? but we are entitled to ask the right hon. gentleman: now that he has told us how highly ho estimates the merits of the deceased Bill, "Why did you kill it ?" (Continued laughter.) Toe right hw , . gentleman, to speak seriously, has referred to topics connected neither with the India Bill No. 2 nor with the resolutions before the House. He began by passing a very severe censure on the British constitution ; and he said—speaking no doubt from his own personal ex perience—" What can be so absurd as the present con stitution of a British Cabinet ?" (Laughter.) " What can be so ridiculous," be said, "as putting one man into a Cabinet because he understands agriculture ; what can be so absurd as putting another man into a thbt net be cause be has an extensive knowledg e of commerce 2. ' And the climax of absurdity, according to theright hon. gentle man, was putting a man into a Cabinet because he could make an eloquent speech. (Renewed laughter.) " Aye," said the right hon. gentleman, "if I were on the other aide of the table, if my tongue were unloosed and I were released from the shackles and trammels of office, I could tell yen how absurd is the constitution of a British Cabinet." (Cheers and continued laughter.) Sir, I don't follow the right hon. gentleman through his theo retical declamations. I am content with the British constitution, and, so far as my experience of Cabinets goes, lam content with them. (Laughter.) But, in• deed the censure of the right hon. gentleman reminds one of those Latin lines : " Balnea, Tina, Venus corrumpunt corpora nostra, Sed faciunt vitam balnea, vine, Venus." A knowledge of agriculture, an acquaintance with com merce, and powers of oratory may be absurd qualifica tions for a public career and for official existence, but, nevertheless, they are elements of our political life. (Hear, hear.) I should not upon this occasion have thought it right to go into the comparative merits of the . different measures that have been laid before the house for the government of India if the right hon. gnntleman had not rendered some notice on our part absolutely and essentially necessary. In praising his own deceased bill he bee pronounced a very severe censure on the arrange ments which we proposed, —net quite so severe a censure as that which he passed on the Manchester scheme, but he declared that our plan was nearly as bad, although its had qualities were a little veiled from sight. Both had the defect of simplicity, which - the right hon. gentle , man seems to think the greatest political sin—a per fee* inexpiable offence ; and certainly it is a c h arge which I nev er h eard brought against a defunct bill of the right hon. gentleman.("Hear," and a l aug h . ) W e all remember th(emannin which that bill was rece i ve d R ea by the h ouse. r, hear.) I have heard a story of trhase SfiparantipstinbSioisvuesdrei! v ia who reigned when "Don Quixote" and laughing immoderatereing a man reading a book a r, sent a courtier to ask what laughing. he was reading and why came back and said thatwssailletbwas read T i h ng e cour tie r Epon Quixote,' " I thought so," ever I see a man laughing I k monarch ; " when ' Don Quixote.'" And so it wnaoswwithhaattdhhies People met one another in the street, i l s n d t l ead a B l i n n! and everybody laughed. "Whatare y ou l one ohi laughe , d said one. " Why, at the India Bill, to b e aan g at =" " Why, I was lau g hin g s. What are yon laughing at ?" at the India Bill, too. (Laughter.) That was the reception that it met with out of doors, and I say, therefore, th a t the public, as well as the Cabinet, had something to d o with the death of that unfortunate and immature mea sure. The right hon. gentleman admits that, although the houie in giving us leave to bring in our bill, and itt THE SUN, LONDON, w. TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 27, 1858 giving the Government leave to bring in their bill, did not affirm any of the detailed conditions of either mea sure, nevertheless that there did appear to be a general assent to the principle that the Government of India was to be transferred from the Company to the Crown. The right hon. gentleman laid that down on the basis on which both his bill and our own were founded. But if that were acquiesed in by the house when we introduced our bill, and if it were taken for granted by the Govern ment when they introduced their's, why are we now to go into committe e t o re di scuss an d reaffirm a principle which both sides of the house have admitted to be the principle upon which legislation should be based ? I merely mention this in passing ; but it appears to me that the first resolution is the repetition of a doctrine which is generally recognised, and which only few persons dissent from. (Hear.) Without adverting to the resolutions, I shall confine my ebservetions to one or two points arising out of the elaborate defenoe which the right hon. gentleman has made of . his bill. He has argued with great perseverance and with great ability thin gte Council, —infavo andur of the he principle as he alwaysof members ey e r for h has particularly dilated upon the propriety of having in the Council persons elected by Parliamentary consti tuencies. Now, if that be so strongly his opinion, may I be allowed to ask him whether he intends to reinsert that provision in the bill which I presume would be the consequence of the resolutions being adopted ? (dear) Does he look upon that provision as bring only, like Juliet, in a trance from a potion given by the Go vernment for a temporary lull, or doe s h e acqu i esce i n the general verdict of the public by which that part of his measure has been condemned I presume that his praises did not imply any intenti in of reviving that pro vision, and while we p ar d on t h e paternal affection, therefore, which was displayed by the right hon. gentle man over the tomb of the deceased, we may st , eume that there will be no attempt to restore that most objection able feature of the measure. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman a rgue d at great l ength i n favour of some portion of the council being elected ; and, referring to the example of this house, he said, " We never hear any objection to members of this house being elected ?" But it seems to me that the whole of that argument is founded upon a false analogy. Is that council to per. form the functions of this house ? If so, let all the mem bers be elected, and by Parliamentary constituencies if you will. If y o u i n t en d it to b e a li ttle Parl i ament to ad minister the affairs of India, welt and good ; but, then, what becomes of your principle of transferring the go vernment of India to a responsible Minister of the Crown who, as stated in th e reso l ut i on, i s to per f orm a ll t h e functions and to po ssess a ll t h e power an d a ll the re sponsibility of a Secretary of State, and who is to admi nister the affairs of India in this country in the same manner and to the same extent as the Secretary of State for the Colonies or the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs administers the business of his department ? Tne two things are perfectly incompatible. I will not dwell upon the principle which is admitted by every constitu tional lawyer and by every man who is versed in the subject, that it is not in accordance with a fendaniental doctrine of our. constitution, that any person who forms part of an executive gov e r n m en t s h o uld owe his appoint ment to any other source than the Crown acting through its responsible advisers. What we want is that the In dian Minister should be accountable to Pailiament for his conduct and that he should not be shielded from responsibility by a Council owing its appointment to independent sources, and not amenable to the Crown, the effect of which would be to oppose, to thwart, and to impede the action of the Minister. if it be thought so essential to have elected members in the Council—if you mean that a man is necessarily a better councillor for Wag elected than if he were nominated by the Crown, why are not all to be elected, and why should any be nominated (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman said that people had ridiculed the idea of giving the appoint ment of councillors to the freemen of Liverpool ; but he said, " Did not the freemen of Liverpool elect Mr. Can ning, and did not this house appoint Mr. Canning to be President of the Board of Control ? " Why no ; this house never made any such appointment. Mr. Canning was elected by the freemen of Liverpool because he was an eminekt public man, a great orator, a great states man, a most able and distinguished man. They chose him, not on account of any particular knowledge which they believed him to possess of the affairs of India, but because they believed him to be a good man to manage the affairs of England. (Hear.) It was not this house that elected Mr. Canning to office, but the Crown in the exercise of that constitutional discretion which vest in the Crown the appointment and selection of public ser vants who possess the confidence of this house. In the same manner Mr. Huskisson was not chosen by the free men of Liverpool that he might be President of the Board of Control, but because he was eminently conver sant with matters of trade, and had studied the prin ciples of commerce, and because the people of Liverpool, being mainly interested in the commercial prosperity of the country, thought Mr. Huskisson would be a useful member of the Legislature, and a supporter of sound commercial principles. Therefore I say that the analogy vs hich the right hon. gentleman has endeavoured to establish has entirely failed. (Cheers.) I own it appears to me that the council in the bill of the late Government was too numerous. (Hear, hear.) I do not profess to have that knowledge of the working of In dian business which should make me competent to express an opinion, but it seems to me that 18 is an incon •enient number, and that, so far from aiding, if they all take part in the discussions, you will have " too many cooks ; " and although " in the multitudeof counsellors there is safety " is a good general axiom, you may over do it, and the number may be too great. (Hear.) But what were intended to be the functions of this council / It was not that the council were to be the responsible governors of India. It was not intended that they should be a council to originate, direct, and decide, but a coun cil to be merely those advisers which the right hon. gen t!eman so well described as an essential part of the de partment which has the management of Indian affairs, The right hon. gentleman well said that public men who have devoted their attention to Parliamentary wa fare, national interests, and European concerns, naturally come into office without that detailed knowledge of the affairs of India which is necessary to enable the Govern went well to administer the affairs of India. The right hon. gentleman also truly said that India is not like one of our other possessions abroad—that it does not contain a single population—that India is not all under our away—that the Indian Government involves rela tions with independent princes, with men of different re ligions, laws, habits, and institutions ; Nand that unless you have a practical knowledge founded upon local ex , perience, you are likely, in your ignorance, to go wrong and do great mischief. (Hear.) Well, sir, we felt that as well as the present Government. We felt that it was necessary to give counsel and support to the Govern meet of which the Minister for India is only the or lan —because the Cabinet is the quarter from whence comes the decision on all matters, and it is that the Cabinet may be furnished. through the Indian Minister, with local knowledge that you propose to give him a council to advise and 4 - sist him, but not to control and overrule him, because the moment you do that the responsibility of the Government ceases—(loud cheers)—and then you have a double Governeaent re-established for In dia. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) These matters wll be a'g'ed at grever length on a future occasion, but I could not allow the observations cf the right hon. gentleman to pass without notice, because I think that the more men come to reflect upon that which was intended to be the principle of the change we pr. posed - , namely, the tran s f er o f t h e GO vernment and the re sponsibility from the Company to the responsible advisers of the Crown—before we consent that this shall be the fundamental prineiplo upon which we are going to act— the more convinced we roust be that the council ought to be a council of advisers, and not of controllers. (Hear.) You do not want to establish a new Board of Control, but to transfer the Government is such a manner that the Ministers of the Crown shall be responsible to this house for the entire direction of Indian affairs. (Cheers There seems a fatality in Indian affairs by which an in: veterate principle of duality clings to everything. (Hear.) We have had for a long time a double Government. That was felt to be an evil which we were called upon to car recL. We were tarred out, and thus there came to be the two Administrations and two bills. The present Govern ment were not satisfied with that, but adopted two me thods of proceeding—a bill a❑d a resolution. I only hope that they will push that principle a little further, and make it necessary, fur the purpose of completing the measure, that we should have two sessions —(a laugh)— certainly, the course they adopt is likely to lead to that result ; but I will say nothing more on that subject for the present. That which induced me to rise was to vindi- _ ----- Cate our measure f r o m the charges of the right hon. gen - tlemen—t o s h ow t h e princ i pa l po i nts upon which their measure differed fro m ours an d f rom th e principle laid down by others representing the more simple measure— and to convince the house that many of these points of difference are not consistent with the fundamental prin ciples of the British Constitution, and are inconsi-tent with the fundamental principle on which it is proposed that the transfer of Indian government ahoull be made to the Crown. (Loud cheers ) Mr. GLADSTONE—The house has listened to a most interesting discussion upon a subject of paramount im portance, and in that discussion we have heard expressed the views of those who are friendly to one plan of deal ing with Indian affairs before the house, and in some degree to the views of those who are friendly to the other. I quite agree with my noble friend who has just sat down that we could hardly have expected the state ment that we have heard to-night from the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer—(hear) and my object in rising is to say a few words upon what I conceive to be a point now properly to be decided by the Muse of Commons. That point did not form the gist of his speech n which the right hon. gentleman de fended the wisdom of the measure of the Government, nor was it one that formed the gist of the speech of my noble friend, who endeavoured to set up his own bill in opposition to that of the Government. What is the ques tion before ns ! We are invited to vote that on Friday next this house will resolve itself into committee to con- eider the acts of Parliament relative to the government of India. Nov, sir, I for one, cannot join in the censure which has been bestowed upon the suggestion of my noble friend the member for the city of London (Lord J. Russell), that the best method of proceeding will be by resolutions. (Hear,) I believe that it might have been a happy circumstance—it would certainly have been so in the view of those who think that this is the best mo ment for legislating for India—if our original mode of proceeding had been by resolution; and I am certain, krona Parliamentary recollections and traditions, to t there are abundant precedents to justify and recommend such a course. (Hear, hear.) The proposition of my noble friend has at last had this effect, whatever other effect it may have, that we are now practically in fie position in which we stood on the night of ',the discus sion on the motion of my hon. friend the member for Huntingdon. (Hear-) We are called upon now, not to act upon any vote which we may have previously given, but to make a completely new commencement of the government of India. (Hear.) I was one of those who originally felt that the moment was not opportune for undertaking so formidable a task ; and so long as the flames of war remain unextinguished in India, I, for one, am yet to be convinced that it is not rash and ill-advised to legislate for that country, (Cheers.) But I do not seek to revive the argument that was advanced by my hon. friend the member for Huntingdon and by others, and contested with equal ability by those upon the oppo site side. The decision of the house is upon record, and it is to be held good and sound while the circumstances remain unchanged. But do they remain unchanged ? (Cheese.) Was not the hope held out to us at that time that before we proceeded far with Indian legislation we might have to congratulate ourselves upon the complee tion of military operations in India ? Was it not the hope that by the end of April, when that intelligence was expected to arrive, we should have made conside rable progress in the passing of a bill ? We have lost be tween two or three months, and I do not think there is a man among all those who hear me, however sorry he may be for the fact, who will deny the proposition that if we have moved at all in the matter of legislation for India since the motion of my hon. friend the member for Huntingdon, we have moved backwards. (Hear.) Take the promoters and authors of the first bill. The noble viscount in his very amusing and interesting speech ad verted to the dualism which he says has unhappily marked all these proceedings. There is a double Go vernment to be abolished, he says, we have had two bills and two Governments have tried their hands at it, and he hopes that it won't go a little further and that we shah not have two sessions. It is sometimes difficult to dis tinguish between the ironical and the earnest, tut I cer tainly did cot think that the vein of irony was wrong in the noble viscount's declarations. (Hear, hear.) I thought he both anticipated that the termination of this session might not see the settlement of the India Bills, and while anticipating that as probable he did not deprecate the delay as a great misfortune. (Hear.) The noble lord observed with great force on a former occasion that the evil of postponing legislation was secondary in its cha racter, but that the evil of rash, ill considered, and ill-di gested legislation would be of immeasurable importance. And, has not the Chancellor of the Exchequer—to be equal with the noble lord—made in significant terms a Mender suggestion ? Has he not warned the house that unless we can appoint a council equal in knowledge and experience to the present Court of Directors, we should do well altogether to pes•pone this question ? (Hear.) I look then not only to the time that has elapsed, not only to the validity of the original reasons for delay, because that is a plea upon which I admit I can hardly be permitted to dwell ; I look to the misgiv ings of tue authors of the two measures, to the state of public affairs, to the period of the session at which we have arrived, and combining these considerations toge ther I cannot permit the motion which you hold, sir, in your hand to be put from the chair without protesting against an affirmative answer being given to it, But I have other reasons besides these. If we had before us what appeared to me to be the elements of a good and efficient plan for the eovernment of India, or if we had before us a plan to which this house could wisely give its assent, with only certain amen Intents in detail, then under the authority of our vote of February we might, consistently at least, go forward with the work of legis lation. But is that the state of the case ? We have heard to-night, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, an in genious and elaborate defence of his bill as he originally introduced it. I don't know what effect that defence has made on the minds of members, but I must confess that if I had felt any scruples or any objections to the prin ciples of that bill they have not been removed by the right hon, gentleman's speech. (Hear.) But lain bound, in fairness and in equity, without censuring any one, and I trust without offending any one, to say that in neither of these bills can I see the elements iif a good and sound measure, (Hear.) Aad let me here make this remark on the bill of the late Government as illustrated by the speech of the noble viscount :—When he was arguing against the application of the elective principle to the framing of a council fer India, and when he was speak ing of the sole and undivided responsibility of the Secre tary of State, I thought I traced in his speech, as in his former declarations on the same subject, an inadequate sense of the difficulty of legislation on this matter. I, for my part, cordially subscribe to the principle which was laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the close of his speech, that if we are to add a council to the orga nisation of the future Home Government of India, it ought to be a council equal in knowledge and experience to the Court of Directors; and most reluctantly should I see any bill go up from this to the other House of Par liament which substituted for the Court of Directors any body—call it what you will, or appoint it how you choose —which was not fully equal fir every purpose . of advice, suggestion, and, speaking morally, I will even say of control, to the present Court. (Cheers.) But what is the great difficulty that we have to encounter in this matter?. It is that you are attempting to govern by means of a people another people, separated from us not by distance only, but by language, by blood, by tradition, by history by institutions, and by all that can draw a line of de markation between man and man. Is it not the greatest problem in politics how to govern a nation by another nation ? I s it not by far the greatest difficulty which we have before us—how to provide duly, in our system of government, for the protection of the interests and feel ings of the people of India I With the greatest faith in Parliamentary institutions for the discussion and settle natmt of public affairs in England, I frankly own that I have net equal faith in their operation for defending the interests and feelings of the people of India, The ques tion which we are bound to ask ourselves before all others, with all others, and above all others, is—what protec tion can we provide by thelaw not only for the maiete nano° of those interests, but like wise for respect, care, and tolera'ion to wards the feelings of the people of India? I will say this of the Court of Directors, that it has practically been a body protective of the people of India. I am not friendly to its maintenance, far lees am I friendly to that state of severance which exists at present between the Executive and the independaut element of the Indian Government ; but this I do .ay, that we ought not to assent to any plan which makes less efficient pro • vision for the protection of Indian interests and Indian feelings. And I look in vain to the plan of her Majesty's Government and still more in vain, I think, to the plan of the noble ci-count the member for Tiverton, for any protective power that can be compared in point of effi • cia anothercy to t the et topic a rt it o og f e D th ir c e r et n o e t' w B ; 8 ( o ri f e a a r r, a s h etahri.? discussionß utth ere i is concerned, which nevertheless weighs upon my m i nd almost oppressiv e ly with, regard to legislating this on question. The first great point to which we have to look is to provide protection for the people of India against the ienoraece, indiscretio n , a n d e rrors either of the Exe cutive, or cf Parli a me n t, or o f the Government of th is country. But besides that there is a second qnestion which I am afraid has hardly been named since these de bates began. I know not what the feelings of others may he in regard to it, but I myself entertain so strong an opinion upon it that lam bound to notice it, It appears to me that th ere h as grown up , par tly f r om circu mstances beyond our control, and partly by cur own legi4atian, a system fraught with danger, not only to India, but also to the privileges of Parliament, and even to liberty as well as the public interests at home, by the undue, and, had not the Chancellor of the Excht quer frightened me, I would have said the unconstitutional exercise of power by the Executive Government through the means of the Indian army and treasury. (Hear, hear.) I cannot look back upon the history of wars, more than one, which have been waged in India during the last 20 years, with out saying th a t t h e power lodged in the hands of the Queen's advisers, as it has been exercised in these in stances, has been wholly at variance with the interests ef the country, and with the rights and privileges of the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) I am obliged to take th thelast ri p instance nci eto as w t h h i e ch on l e a m m os n t ow st a ri d le v in er g t ! i y n.l illustrative of the p take the case of the Persian war. (Hear, hear ) I am not now about to discuss its policy, nor shall I enter upon the reasons for which it was made, nor the terms on which it was concluded; but this I ray, that if wars are to be made by the Executive Government, through the means, in the first instance, of those ,esources which the Indian army and the Indian finances afford, without the knowledge and coueent of Parliament, and if we are to be apprised of those wars for the first time when military operations have commenced, and if we are never to be consulted until the moment has I come when it is absolutely necessary to draw funds for the support of them from the British Exchequer, then these two consequences follow. In the first place, that s 3 stem is destructive in the last degree to the interests of the people of India, because it is in that way that a great part of our financial difficulties in India have arisen. (Hear, hear.) To take India into your own hands, to govern from a distance by means of strangers and foreigners a nation which has a history and traditions of its own, is a difficulty saris us enough. It is a problem fur which perhaps you may in vain seek a permanent and satisfactory solution. But over and above this difficulty you have been accumulating upon India a debt which, though some have attempted to make light of it, appears to me to be far heavier in proportion than the crushing and gigantic debt of England. When we talk of our own heavy debt we have this consolation, that we have been mortgaging our own estate ; but when we speak of the debt of India we are speaking of a debt charged upon a country whose revenues we are drawing in this country by virtue of the power of the sword. But apart from that I say it is most unjust that the Executive Government should have, for any purpose of its own, or for any purpose of the people of England, the power of entailing these tremendous charges upon the people of India. (Cheers.) The consequence as regards the people of India are not more striking or more con clusive than the objections to this policy which arise out cf its bearing on the rights of this hous3. As regards the liberties of Parliament, it seems to me to make little difference whether a war made without our assent is a war with Persia, or a war with Russia. (Hear.) I can not recognise any such Idistinction. And bow do we stand with reference to the plans before the house as they bear upon this vital question ? I frankly own I want to limit the power of the Queen's advisers—it is better to speak it out—for I do not think we are safe, I do not think we are secure, I do not think we meet the dictates of prudence and circumspection, unless we place limitations upon the power of the Crown with respect to the use of the Indian treasury and army. (Hear, hear.) Do I find any such limitation,' in these plans On the contrary, the plan of the right hen. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer is entirely silent with regard to it. The plan of my noble friend the member for Tiverton is not silent, but the provisions which he has introduad into his bill—drawing a distinction be twLen war in Asia and war out of Asia, and enacting that when military operations are actually begun A commuui• cation of the fact shall be made to Parliament within one month, or within a month after Parliament has met—l do not hesitate to say are far worse than no provisions at all (cheers) ; for they amount substantially to a legislative sanction of a system with respect to which we are at least entitled to say that, up to the present moment, it has never had the countenance or approval of Parliament. (Cheers.) I do not intend to enter at length into a discussion on these matters, but I mention them now because, in my opinion, the main conditions and object of our legislation for India are protection for the Indian people against the errors of England, and protection for the British people and the Bri tish Parliament against an undue exercise of power by the executive Government. In neither of these plans can I find any provisions at all, or any provisions worth naming, for these vital purposes. The objections of detail are, I am afraid,in themselves so numerous that they would make almost unlimited demands upon the time and patience of the house to solve them. I complain that Ido not find in these plans the spirit and intention whichseem to me to be essential for satisfactory legislation. Upon that ground, and still more upon the general grounds that have been previously urged, 1 must respectfully remonstrate against the resolution that is about to be put from the chair. (Loud cheers.) And although I know not whether that remon strance is at the present moment more than an idle sound, yet I confess I do anticipate that as the session advances, as weeks the sati s f ac ti on o f th ose w h o have concurred glide y in it twill become stronger and more decided, and the disposition of those who have not concurred in it will likewise gradually develope itself to regrets that they had not, while there was yet time, taken their stand upon the very same ground that I presume to occupy in protesting against attempts at legis lation which, under the circumstances of the moment, we do not believe can possibly reach a satisfactory result. (Cheers.) I close what I have t o say by quoting those still more memorable words of the right boo. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer I hope I do not misrepresent them :—`• Although we now advise the house to enter on the question of Indian legislation, yet during the lest two months—since I have become a member of the Government —every day of my experience has more and more convinced me that there does not at present exist among us that ma turity of op nion which is requisite on ques ti ons o f th e fi rs t difficultywcooumdlm and importance." (Che ers .) upon the r eso l u ti ons . H e veserve any observati o n s un til t o h r d ec e o r hlneo i ti n see p i point went of into committee E s could not help, however, expressing his entire concurrence in everything which hat fallen from Mr. Gladstone. Fur ther consideration had convinced him the more strongly that the present was not the time for legislation. He would ask whether the present government of India had failed or broken down ? Had it failed to do all it had been called upon to perform ? On the contrary, he maintained that the Indian government hadproved itself most efficient. Various grounds had been urged why they should proceed to legislate upon this question is the course of the present session. The first ground was, that the House of Com mons had determined by a large majority that it would legislate. Now, he was sure that no one knew better than the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli) that the majority of 115 which voted in favour of the introduction of the bill of the noble lord the member for Tiverton, did not in the slightest degree pledge the house to proceed. It was a mere matter of courtesy which the house usually accorded nut only to Prime Ministers, but to private members who asked leave to introduce a bill. The next ground was that a double Government existed ; ergo that double Government ought to be abo lished. But surely it ought first to be proved that the double Government, as it was called, had failed, and was injurious to India and the people of this country. That had never yet been done. Even the noble lord, when proposing to abolish the working. In fact, h e h a d never heard so muc h o f what eb bt existingused system, had highly eulogised its practical C to call " b osh " talked as upon t hi s ques ti on . et The next ground they were celled upon to legislate was de ference to public opinion. His inquiries on that point led him to the conclusion that the "public opinion" referred to very much resemble' tho " we, the people of England" perhaps, amazed t o of the three tailo rs o f Tooleyss t reet, t h e h ouse wou ld b e , learn what the public opinion upon the subject was. A s far as the pu bli c op i n i on i n f avour o f a change in the G overnment o f I n di a was i n di cate d b y t h e petitions to that house. It was as follows The total num ber of petitions connected with Indian questions was 303. How many did the house suppose, out of that member, were in favour of transferring the Government if India from the East India Company to the Crown ? Only three. (Hear.) So much for public opinion, then, and the voice of the country on thi s matter. Another reason was that the House of Commons having, by a majority of 115, voted in favour of a bill being brought in, the Government in India would be paralysed if it were not proceeded with. There was no tempest passed a wn ground wh a t ever for such a suppos i t i on. T wo o f t h e com monest word s i n I nd i a with respec t t o th e " C ompany ' s raj " signified "f or t une " awl "prosperity," and after the present ever. At theiiresent time it would be a most imprudent, im politic course t o i n t ro d uce an y organic ch an g es into the go that "rah" would be stronger than y vernment of India; bat when the pacification of the country was completed, it might be right to turn attention to prac tical plans by which the Government of India might be con centrated. For his own part, he thought that if they ad ministered the Government in the Queen's name, and put a Minister of State at the head of the present Court of Directors, the thing would be done, and that the Queen's name would come like an angel of mercy, healing the wounds we lamented to inflict, and heralding a long career of peace and progressive prosperity to the people of India. (Divide, divide.) Sir H. VERNEY—(divide, divide) —believed that a great change had come over the house and the country also upon this subject, since it was last under discussion, and the opinions of a great number of hon. members who had voted for the introduction of the bill of the noble lord were —that the proposed change was not expedient at the pre sent time. (Hear.) The noble lord hal proposed a great change in the Government of ludia--1 change by which all the checks upon the Board of Control would be taken away, without proving that these cheeks were either un necessary or injurious. So far from being of opinion that these checks were not required, he held that Parliament ought to increase the powers of the Court of Directors; and, had they possessed greater power over the Board of Control during the last quarter of a century, they wool 1. have been able to prevent many of those wars which had absorbed the revenues of India and t revented the Govern ment from proceeding wish priblio works and internal im provements in the country. (Hear.) He regretted that the right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford (Ur. Gladstone) did not terminate a speech Which spoke the sentiments of a large number of members in that house, by a znotiou which would have tested whether the house was prepared to proceed farther at the present time, and might have brought the matter to a conclusion at once. (Hear, hear.) Mr. GREGO KY said he entirely concurred in the ob servations of the boo. baronet (Sir 11. Verney) that it was most desirable to ascertain the opinion of the house at that stage, and that somebody should move that they should not go into committee. After ths speech of the right hen. gentleman (Mr. Gladstone), in which opinions were expressed identical with those of a large number of members, he believed that the effect of a division at that stage, instead of g o i ng i nto committee on Friday, would Joe, if not to sho w a majority—as least such a minority of eminent men of all parties —as would have the effect of in ducing the country at large to postpone legislation to a more fitting period. (Hear.) At present the house were working in the dark. They had not sufficient light thrown on the path in which they were walking. The course pro posed was encumbered with every species of danger, and under these circumstances he would have wished that the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Gladstone) had brought forward a motion against going into committee on these resolutions. But as the right hon. gentleman had not done so, he (Ur. Gregory), believing that the course proposed Was dangerous, would, as an humble member of the house, take on himself the responsibility of moving a 3 an amend ment, "That it is not expedient to pass any resolution for the future government of India." Mr. W. E WART, in seconding the motion, said there was a di vers it y of op i n i on on the subject of ' the council, The noble lord the member for Tiverton proposed one species of council, and the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer a more extended council. third party, of which he (Mr. Ew art) was one, disap provedtThhheeepublic er p n o e p o w e Is s t p cp a oh p na e em r s tb s he t ei r . o oi n nf g e l ca y son a m d r of any counc il at all. T he Manchester Chamber of n e: e cu r a C tl e ne d h e j a ct d eh a p a t e n petitioned t pinion.l i n o a n n o y il o the f till next session, and then to appoint a committee of in qniry. He thought that to proceed at present would be only wasting the time of the house, and therefore ho would support the amendment. Lord JOHN RUSSELL. —The hon. gentleman who moved the amendment proposes that there should be no legislation during the present year with regard to India. If an hon. member of this house is ready to take upon him self the responsibility of rejecting what this house by a large majority has resolved upon, h© ought to have taken on himself the additional responsibility of g.ving notice to the house of the amendment he intended to move—(hear, hear)—in order that his proposition might be discussed in in a full house, In any early period of the session, and in an unusually full house, after full deliberation an I much argument, the house came, by a majority of 141, to a re solution to allow the head of the Government to introduce a bill, the purport of which was to transfer the a 'minis tration of the government of India to the Crown. Now, if we are to depart from that resolution we ought to do so only after full deliberation and due notice, (Hear, hear.) I own that with regard to the question itself I should be sorry to see the house reverse its decision. I think the present Government were perf ec tl y j ust i f i ed i n sa yi n g that " although we have thought the time inopportune —.l though we thought the introduction of the measure pre mature, yet we see the evils that must ensue, if, after the resolution of a full hou se, the government of India is con demned, no resolution is taken to found auy other au. ho rity instead." I think that the government were justified under those circumstances in patios. in abeyance their pre vious opinions, ant i i n end,avouring to legislate for India. My hon. friend w h o , has spok en says it is late in the session, but in 1813 1833, and 1853, bills were proceeded with in this house up to a much later period in the ssssion (Hear, hear.) And what is the obstacle to prevent us from considering this great subject ? Subjects of equal if not greater importance are entertained every year at later periods, and, therefore, there does not seem to me to be any reason why this subject should not be proceeded with. I know there is a disadvantae in considering a question of thi s ki nd when our Indian g establishments are surrounded with dangers, but the resolution of the house had been come to when we were in the hands of our enemy, and without those advanta ges which victories since achieved aff o rd us. Althou g h - st ma y be some impeach ment of the wi s d om of Parliament, yet it has generally happened that no very great attention is paid to any sub ject until circumstances of a very ser i o us nature demand it. My opinion is, th at in 1853, had the Earl of Aberdeen proposed a change of this kind the majori t y would have refu se d to adopt it , on the ground that India, was in a quiet an d undisturbed state. But now our at tention is rivetted to the subject, there is hardly an hon. gentleman wh o h as not since A ril last year paid great at tention to the s u bj ect. Well, suppose that the mutiny was suppressed, and that nothing occurred beyond little skirmishes with small bodies of mutineers, do you think the public interest on the subject would continue ? I think it would very much abate, and that other subjects would arise to occupy our attention. I doubt very much whether in the beginning of 1859 there would be so much know ledge and deliberatioa given to the subject as can be given to it at the present time. Ido not, therefore, see why we should not now, in this the very beginning of our delibera tions, proceed to consider the resolutions of the Govern ment. No question has been raised to-night as to whether we should proceed by resolution or by Disraeli) was that bill. The proposi tion of the ri g ht h on. gentleman (Mr. we should g o i n t o committee to consider resolutions. Most unfortunately, I think, he g av e us a long defence of his own bill which ho has already murdered with his own hands. Of that bill we will now bay nothing— De mortuis nil nisi bonum. --(Laughter)—butt think we shall be, after some days' con sideration able to come to some conclusion on the subject. Look at the great subject of slavery which Lord Darby pro posed to be considered in committee, and the consideration of which occupied seven or eight days. We may require as many for the consideration of this bill. I think, however, the points of consideration are not numerous. The first point is that you are asked to transfer the whole authority of the East India Company to the Crown. The next question is, whether the the Secretary of State or the oil:1(r minister you are asked to set up, is to have a council to assist him. This will not require very long argument. The arguments lie on the surface one way or the other. The next thing is to consider what is to be the nature of the council. Upon that subject I entirely agree with the ob servations of my noble friend the member for Tiverton. I think it wise to have a council for the purpose of assisting the Secretary of State. I think it wise that he should be informed by persons of Indian experience of their opinion with respect to any measure concerning India, for however lausible it might seem without such advice, it might have the effect of creating discontent and even rebellion in India. I think it advisable to have a council to enable the minister himself to know what are the opinions of men of knowledge and official experience, but I 4 hink it would be a great mistake if we attempted to give an independent authority to such a council as that would divide the resporte sibility, the unity of which is the great object of the whole measure. Surround him with able men. Do not shrink from giving salaries that will enable you to obtain the ser vices of the best men who return from their important functions in India, but let the minister himself have the responsibility—and unless he is supreme he cannot have that responsibility—let him be supreme in his council, and stand up in Parliament and defend the policy of which he is the author. (Hear.) Another point has been referred to, namely, the appointment of a portion of the council by the electors of certain towns. If I could satisfy myself that there was any body of electors that could select mem bers of the council better than the Crown could do, Ishould give the power to do so to that body, but I own I am not able to satisfy myself that such would be the case; for either a body of electors would be exceedingly numerous, and consisting of persons having little or no interest in the good government of India, or they would be so few as to give rise to cabeti. I think that, with certain restric tions, the wiser course would be to give the power of nomination to the Crown ; and certainly no man can be better qualified by ability and experience of Indian matters to make a proper selection than Lord Ellenborough, the present President of the Board of Control. I believe that any Government would endeavour to select the best men that coule be procured, and those who would endeavour to promote the best in terests of India. It is well known that men in India teke little interest in the politics of this country, and it has been stated of Lord Harding° that he had had an aide-de camp for three years without knowing that he was a Ra, dical. After spending some years in India, whether in a military or civil capacity, a man gets gradually wearied from those habits and partialities which divide politicians in this country ; and, therefore, I think there is every chance that it will not bo difficult to obtain able and im pertial advisers of the Crown from that quarter. If this house does not think fit to consider the question relating to the Government of India in the present year, I should not agree in their decision ; but, if that is their decision, I think the matter should be deliberately weighed. We should consider what will be the effect on India of this sudden change of opinion on the part of the house. I think the hon. member for Buckingham is one of those who are in the habit of sliding from one argument into another. He says, " Why legislate this year? Why not wait till next year? There is surely ro hurry. The Government of the Esst India Company is as perfect as any other, and there is no reason for changing it." (Hear, hear.) Well, if there be no reason for changing it, say so plainly, bat do not hold out the hope of such a change when you have no intention that it should be made. If the present sys tem of government be so perfect as has been maintained, it will be better to uphold it; but the majority at both sides of the house have come to the conclusion that a change ought to be mat's. Ido not think the immediate change will be either so vast or so striking as some persons expect, though no doubt groat changes may afterwards be expected. The Board of Control now possesses a power which can overrule the Court of Directors, so that there cannot be any very great increase in the power of the Crown, while there would be a different mode of trans acting Indian business, but which will lead, I believe, to the future consideration of the finaucial system of India; and that consideration will lead, in the course of years, to many changes, which I believe will be for the benefit of India, which is the main consi deration. If any change would be for the benefit of the millions of India over whom we now hold rule, that would be a sufficient reason for it. I hope, under all the circum stances of the case, that the house will vote in favour of the resolutions proposed by the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. MANGLES said he should vote against any measure which had for it s o bj ect to take from the East India Com pany that power and authority which he believed they had used for the welfare of India. If the directors were over powered in their opposition, be would still do all in his power to render the measure as psi feet as possible. Mr. MILLIE said that the amendment of the hon. member for Galway seemed to him to say that they ought to proceed to legislate for India by way of bill rather than by resolutions. (Cries of no, no, and real ) The words of the amendment were, " That at this moment it is not de sirable to pass any resolution," &o. That did not say how ever, that they were not to proceed by way of bill. But the question before them was as to their mode of proceeding, and he thought it wools be more convenient to preceed by way of resolutions, which was better than if they were to bring in a bill. Sir G. GREY said he did not understand that the issue which they were called upon to decide was whether they were to proceed by bill or by resolutions. If he under stood the observations of the hon. member for Galway his arguments were against the present mode of proceedure, and that, in fact, we ought notnow to attempt to legislate for the government of India. And understanding this to be the oject of the hon. gentleman in moving this amend ment he (Sir G. Grey) was disposed to vote with the Go vernment against it. But if the question was, as was urged by the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Bailtie), merely whether they should legislate for India by bill or by revolutions, then he must reconsider the vote which he should give on that subject; but as the question raised by the amendment was whether they should legislate at this moment, then he should vote for the Gevernment. The right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford had certainly shown that there wore precedents for proceeding to legislate on this question by way of reso lutions; still his (Sir G. Grey's) opinion was in favour of proceeding by bill, but he was not disposed to press his opinion to a division, as he would not take the responsi bility on himself of causing delay on this subject. Mr. Walpole then rose, but was met by cries of " tho member for Galway," whereupon the right hon. gentleman sat down. Mr. GREGORY said that the object of his amendment was to induce the house to get rid of all legislation respect ing India this session. (Hear, hear.) Awl if he succeeded in inducing the house to assent to his amendment, and by doing so, get rid of the resolutions now before it, then the house could proceed to consider the bill of the noble lord the member for Tiverton. Mr. W ALPOrhE said that if such was the intention of the hon. gentleman, it would have been as well if his amendment had been so worded as to enable the house precisely to t.ndorstand it. The question really before them was, was it desirable now to legislate for the Home Go vernment of India? He was one of those who voted with the hon. member for Huntingdon, in February last, against altering the Home Government of India at a time when a mutiny was raging in that country, and, having so voted, if the question were now in the same position in which it then stood, he would have concurred in the amendment proposed by the hon. mernbsr for Galway; but let th e house considee the state which the question was now in. A large majority affirmed in February last that they oug ht to proceed to legislate for the Home Government of India this session ; but if they were now in April disposed to rescind the motion come to in February, then clue notice ought to be given of a motion on the subject, so that the house might be prepared to give a direct vote respecting it. It, , then, the hon. member give notice of a motion for Fridayonight, when the resolutions were to be brought for ward, a nt then the question raised by the ame n dm en t could (Hear, hear.) Under the preheat be fully discusse d . circums t a nces of the case he would not enter into the ques• tion as opened by the noble lord the member for London, but he would be prepared to do so on a future occasion w hen the whole question was before the house. Sir F. BARING said ho voted on a former occasion for a postponement of legislation, and he should still support that opinion. But, at the same time, if they were to change their course, some notice of a motion to that effect should be given. (Hear, hoar.) He did not attach much weight to changing the resolution come to by the house in February last, because if they did not do so now they wou ld in July. (A laugh.) At the same time, notice should be glees, and then however small the minority, he would not be ashamed to for m one of that minority. Lord GODERICH said that he voted in February last in favour of legislation, but after the speech of the right hoe. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was most important, he thought, that no hon member should him any decided course till Friday ne x t, w h en pledge hi the whole subject would be considered. l‘lr. HORS said that it appeared a change had taken place in the feeling of tha house, and that it had spread very far beyond it. This house had made a great mistake iu entangling itself in Indian legislation before it had made itself acquainted with Indian requirements. \Vera net all important acts of legislation preceded by inquiry ? Were they agreed as to the basis of legislation I Did any of the schemes proposed meet the general appro bation of the house, or would any one of them, if c triit d, raise the character of the house ? In neither of the bills were to be found the elements of what was required as the existence of a council, and the nature of the Govern- ment in India itself was evaded rather than dealt with. The difficulties were so great that it was not likely they could legislate satisfactorily on so important a subject this year. That feeling was growing in the house, and he thought the Government would exhibit the greatest moral courage in declaring openly, and acting upon, this opinion which they really entertained. They could not he so san guine as to hope for success this year. The expression of feeling in the house that, there should be a transfer of the government of India from the Company to the Crown was general, and therefore on Friday next the first of the series of resolutions to that effect sight be agreed to ; but as for the second and following resolutions, it might be eesy to adopt a eourse to withdraw them for the present session, and a motion for their postponement would, he thought, meet with general sympathy and support. He believed the feeling of the house was so strong on this point, that, although he did not wish to initiate any 'no tion himself on the subject, if no other hon. member would come forward and move that these resolutions be deferred he would himself do it. (Hear, hear.) Mr. VERNON SMITH said he did not believe the opi nions of the Liberal members in favour of legislation were altered, although the opinions of the members of the pre sent Government were changed. He thought the conduct of the Government extraordinary in proposing legislation, when they were individually opposed to it. The Govern ment of which he was a member did not propose to touch the Government of India. They only proposed to remodel the home government of India, about which, as he was in formed by experienced Indians, the natives of India did not care at all. Therefore, after what had passed in that house, he stron g l y deprecated the proposal for the appfdnt went of a committee. Neither did he approve of proceed ing by way of resolution. The business of the India House during the existing uncertainty could not proceed satisfac torily, and if this great subject were postponed for another year the consequences might be most serious. They had, he thought, suf f iciently considered the main propositions of an Indian bill, and he could not conceive what could bo gained by the postponement of legislation for another year. (Hear, from Lord J. Russell.) When his noble friend pro posed the resolutions it was intended that they should con tain a wider range of principle than those which were now proposed by the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The result of the resolutions now pro f o,ed would eimply be that they would have the debate twice instead of once. As to the question of nominatiou, he agreed.that if a suitable system of election could have been devised it would have been preferable; but he as- sured the house that when in office he had gone over every possible scheme of election which could be suggested, but he could not find one which was compatible with a corn ; mon sense view of the question. When the right hon. gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) talked of election and representation— Tile CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER—I did not talk of them. (Laughter.) Mr. V. SMITH said he thought that the right hon. gentleman had certainly referred to the subject when he spoke of the 101. householders, for instance. However, the fact was, that they could have no representation of Indi t, because they could not face the real difficulty—they must represent the natives, which no man of common sense would thi n k o f propos i ng. They, therefore, threw election, not on the tax-payers, but on the tax consumers. These p, neionere of the military and civil services were pereons who were interested simply in deriving their re venues from India. He would take one of the nominees on the right hon. gentleman's proposed council, for example ; that gentleman, early in his life, bad been ten years in In lie, but had Lever beers there since. (Hear, and a laugh.) Such being the difficulties connected with election and re , preseetation, they had reverted to nomination. But it seemed now to be presumed that a nominated person must necessarily be dependent, and it was the fashion to call them " nominees." One hon. gentleman who had spoken had gone se far as to call them " the miserable tools of a corrupt. Government." (Heir, and laughter.) He (Mr. V. Smii h) did not, however, see why nominees should be considered as being necessarily dependent. Such had not been the ease. Surely they could not deny the indepen dence of the hon. gentleman the member for Leominster (Mr. Willoughby). (Hear.) He coat not be called a ‘• berren nomuree"—(laughter) -or, as the hon. and learned gentleman the member for Enniskillen (Mr. White side) had slid, " the miserable tool of a corrupt Ministry." (Hear, and laughter.) Nominees for a certain term of years would be found as independent of the Crown as the elected member s he ruselveA. The member for the Univer sity of Oxford had said that there was noshing in the bill to limit the powers of the secret committee ; but there was a clause which compelled the Minister of the Crown to bring before Parliament, after a certain period, the means by se tech he bad incurred any war in the East. The fact was, the seyet committee was a sham. The President of the Beard of Control was the secret committee in fact, and he could issue orders through the secret committee without consulting or informing Parliament at all. The superiority of their bill (Lord Pelmersten's) was, that it did away with the secret committee. There, however, were questions which they would have ample opportunity of discussing in committee. He thought these resolutions a cumbrous and inconvenient moee of proceeding; but rather than oppose any obstacle to the settlement of the question this session, he would assent to ehear. Mr. P. O'I3IeIHN . contended that no groureis had been showh for altering the verdict which a majority of 145 of them had given on the subject some two or three months ago. Mr. WHITESIDE said the dif f iculties of this question would increase as they progressed, but if the right hon. gentleman opposite always dealt with it in the same pleas ing manner as he hat treated it that evening, it could not be in more pleasing hands. (Laughter.) Sir E. COLEBROOKE thought the house ought not to come lo a division on such a subject as this without a full debate. There ought to be a clear understanding that a division should be taken on Friday night. After a few' words from Mr. COSSLEY, Mr. GREGORY withdrew his amendment, saying that he could not inisuederst aid the feeling of the house on the question, and claiming, on behalf of any more prominent member of the house, the power of renewing the motion, if it should appear necessary hereafter, in the further pro gress of this question. The motion was then agreed to. SUPPLY. On the motion for receiving the report of the Committee of Supply, Sir G. C. LEWIS wished to ask the right hon. gentle man the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he would have any objection to postpone the bill relative to the Ex chequer Bonds, as he wished to call the attention of the house to the subject. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was a question of urgency that the exchequer Bonds Bill should be advanced further that night. aid he should be obliged to the right hon. gentleman if he could reserve hie observations till the War Sinking Fund Bill was brought forward. Sir G. C.. LEWIS said he should certainly acquiesce in the wish of the right hon. gentleman, though he should have preferred making his statement when the Exchequer Bonds Bill was moved. Ou the question that the report of the Committee of Supply be received, Mr. BENTINCK, after reminding the house of the dis cussion which had taken place with reference to the gun boats at Heger, said he wished to ask the right hon. baronet the late First Lord of the Admiralty a question on the subject, the answer to which, if it accorded with his anticipations, would show the public money was squandered, and at, the same time the necessity of some more competent management in the Admiralty. The ques tion he had to put was, whether the right hon. baronet was pie j .ared to state to the house whether the arrange ments for hoisting up the gunboats at Haslar were entered on with the sanction of the naval officers of the Board of Admiralty, or at his own direction. Si, C. OOD said he had given an answer to the Len. gentleman's question on a former occasion, which he sup pose' would have sufficed. He would now, however, state that the question was merely one of hauling up vessels, art a, theretore, one which a person of mechanical skill might be competent to settle, even if he had never been to sea at all. Various plans for the purpose had been pre pared from time to time in the office of the Director of Works, with whom, he might say, rested the engineering works of the Admiralty. A report was prepared on the subject, end the plan being carri e d ou t , h e was bound to say he thought it was a very convenient mode o f ge tti ng the beats op. It was so considered by every member of the Board of Admiralty. Further than that, he must state that he was never iu the habit of giving orders himself without consul , iog his colleaenes. In this case he had cer tainly not consulted any officers at Por smouth or Haslar, but he never r ..ny objection taken to the system. Sir C. NAPIER s.id th ,t, haviug promised to make an inqutt y into this subject at H ,slar, he had done so, and he would first remark that, a first objection to what hat been done would be this—that the b.e were hauled up in the wrong place. The selection of the place was decidedly had, but more than that, the first bw.t of the 40 hauled up had to go a disteece of 70 feet, the next 40 more, the next 80, and so on ; so that he supposed it would take a month to lauech them. He would take that oppirtunity of saying that Portsmouth harbour, being very much cie curnscribed, the Government would do well to purchase land for en larging it, and if that were delayed much longer the pur chase might become more difficult. At Malta, too, the laud should be bought. lie would also mention that he had received a, letter, stating that some Ships had been sent to the coast of Africa with a abort supply of coals. Mr. CORRY remarked that the vote for the purchase of hart at Malta had not been struck out, and the laud would be purchased. He could say nothing about the co.tls. The several votes were then agreed to, and the repor received. THE ARTILLERY AND ENGINEERS. On the order of the day forgoing into committee of supply on the army estimates, Mr. MONSELL moved that an bumble address be pre sented to her Majesty, praying her Majesty that no altera tion may be made in the existing arr nevinents which re gulate the admission to cadetships in the Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers. The right hon. gentleman sail he had not the least fault to fin t with the right hon. gentle man opposite, the Minister for War, who had done all in his power to prevent the existing system from being dis continued. He had continued it for two years longer, and be (Hr. Monsell) was therefore not without hope that it would still be preserved. It lAnd been remarked, that as so many of his countrymen succeeded at these examinations it was really al Irish question, but to that he would only say, that disclaiming such an idea, if even the maxim detur digniori meant " let it be given to an Irishman," he was sure English and Scotch gentlemen would not for that reason wish for the abolition of the present system, but would rather seek to improve their own schools and col leges, to enable their own candidates to compete more suc cessfully with those from Dublin. At present, all natural born subjects of her Majesty, between the ages of 17 and 20, were allowed to compete at Woolwich for these cadet ships. The examinations were conducted by men of emi nence in the several departments of science, and it had been admitted that the system had worked well It was now s .ught to introd ice a qualification, to be obtained at the Royal Milit ar y C o ll ege, Sandhurst. 'So far as the prin ciple of open competition went, it hatilbeen conceded by the Horse Guerds, an I the board was composed of military offi cers, presided by H.R.E. the C onmander-in-Chief. The bon. member then stated that in the Ecole Polyteclin•que, in France. the successful competitors were of the ages from 18 to 20. Did the house, he would ask, consider it expedient to give a monopolytoSandhurst,and to abandon as) stem which works I tolerably well. The great military Powers edu cated the students separately intended for the Artillery and Engineers and the Line. To educate the students iu one common school who were intended for the different branches would be exceedingly objectionable. There was no doubt that at Addiscombe the students intended for the Artillery' and Engineers were educated along with the officers intended for the Line in India. He thought there were serious objections to educating the students in the different branches at One common seitool. The only altera tion he would wish would be to follow the advice of Col. Wilford, to allow theoretical and practical education to go on together, to raise the ages of the boys, so that they would stand at 17 to 20, and to allow the pupils at the school at Woolwich to "ompete with Sandhurst. The young men now admitted at Woolwich were of superior attainments. The effect which the present system had produced throughout the country was this—there were se veral schools which prepared their students to compete at Woolwich, and if there was a certainty of the system being continued other public schools would give similar education. The hon. member then contrasted the system of military education given in France with that which was given in England, and he entreated the eight hon. gentle man (General Peel) not to alter a system which was work ing tolerably well. (Hear, hear.) He concluded by mov- iug his motion Mr. LE FROY would feel he did not perform his duty if he did not press upon the right non. gentleman's attention the necessity of attending to the request whicn had been made by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Monsen.) Sir F. SMITH had had an opportunity of judging of the education given at Addiscombe. The whole time spent in acquiring mathematics was only two years, about five months in each. He hoped his hon. and gallant friend would net break up the present system, for if he did so he would reduce the standard much too low. Sir W. WILLIAMS agreed with his bon. and gallant friend, and hoped no change would take place In the pre- sent system. He was himself an officer belonging to Woolwich, but he might say that that place produced officers second to none in Europe for scientific attainments. He had given the entire subject his consideration, and hoped the hon. and gallant general the Secretary for War would not make the proposed change. General PEEL assured the house that he made no changes whatever in the system. Lord Panmure, when s ocre taay for War, established a plan by which a certain number of commissions were to be given to those who com peted for them, but that was put an end to at the close of the war. The general impression was that the admission to Sandhurst was not as free as that of Woolwich ; but, since he came into office, that had been altered by his Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief, and young men were now enabled to enter for as many examieatione as 'hey thought proper. He believed that competition would now be opened to a greater number of. persons than hereto. fore ; and certainly the final competitive examination for the scientific branches would be higher; and he believed more satisfactory. He found that was, the system esta blished by Lord Panmure, who paid th e reatest attention to the subject, who sent a commission abroad to inquire into the systems at foreign colleges, and he certainly thought that the alterations he made were most beneficial. He thought, however, that an inquiry might be of use ; and, though he could not agree to the motion of the hoe. gentlemen, he was of opinion that an inquiry would effect great good. _ 111 r. BUXTON tholight it was bad for boys themselves to begin their professional education at a very early age, or that they should mix only with boys suoh as at Sand hurst, who were intended exclusively f , r the military pro fession. Mr. DEASY believed the course adopted by the Cloverns ment was a retrograde movement, and he hoped the house would not consent to the proposed alteration. Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT thought the house had now arrived at a clear apprehension of what the changes were which were contemplated with respect to the mode of admission to the army. He thought nothing could be more absurd than to say th y were to return from com petition to nomination, and nothing could be more credit able to the Commander-in-Chief than to give up the patronage which he possessed. Under the new system tutroduced by Lord Panmure, candidates were to be ad• mitted to the theoretical class at Woolwich, but not to the practical class. What he (Mr S. H.-rbert) proposed was, that Sandhurst should be enlarged, and that the age of the c rmlidates should be if creased from 16 to 17 years, so ae to admit the young men who had passed their first examina tion at Sandhurst, to be eligible to enter into the competi tion at Woolwich. By that course, they would keep the young men up to the mark so long as there was conopeti tion ; but they would never have the efficiency under com petition so long as competition was not kept up to the mark, and that would be the ca-e with the examinations at Woolwich if competition was not kept up to the mark. Another question had been raised, whether Sandhurst should not be kept up as a monopoly, regulated by a scale of payments, in which general officers were to pay less for the education of their sous than other ranks and classes of society were to pay. When he was Secretary for War, he did his best to resist airy scheme of that kind; but he thought it was net the duty of the State to give gratuitous military education to any class on the ground of destitu tion of the party seeking it. He believed all the costs of e lucation had bee re luced, and the question now resolved itself into a question of costa. The original plan, which he hoped to see followed out, was, that young men might be admitted by competitive examination to the practical class at Woolwich. The system of nomination was gone, not, he hoped, to be pushed back. The gallant general said it was, in his opinion, desirable to have a commission of in quiry ; thcy had had commissions of inquiry before ; and he would suggest to the gallant general, instead of waiting for inquiry, to bring his own common sense, of which he possessed a good stock, to bear upon the question, and to go on by competitive examination, by which they would obtain an able and well-educated class of men for the ser vice. Mr. P. 0' r'RIEN . hoped the system of competition would not be abolished. Lord V aNE TE A PEST said he had served with foreign armies, and he was enabled to say, from observation and experience, that the education of foreign officers was not, in his opinion, superior to that of English officers. Mr. ROEBUCK wished to say a few words to the right hon. gentleman the member for Limerick about his motion. The motion was that they should vote an Ad dress to the Queen not to allow any change to take place in the existing system at the present time. Now, he wanted to know what the present time meant, and what the existing system was. As he understood, Lord Pan mare, at the beginning of the war, altered the system, but at the end he chaeigee it again. Now, whether was it the last or the first system that was to be in existence ! The bottle ought to know what the present state of things was, and not to proceed to pass a resolution without knowing what it was they were doing. Mr. MONSELL, after a few words by Mr. PALS, which, owing to the noise that prevailed by cries of " Divide," were inaudible, begged to suggest a slight alte ration in his motion, and to propose, instead of the words "existing arrangements," to insert " the principle of ex isting arrangements." Mr. WALPOLE said that Lord Pan mure had established these open examinations during the war, with the under standing that at the p eace t h ey should terminate. His gallant friend (general Peel) had continued them for two examinations longer. The right hon. member for Wilt. shire thought it very desirable that these examinations should continue, but still was of opinion that the matter should be left in the hands of his gallant friend, who un derstood all its bearings so well. Captain VIVIAN thought it necessary that the question should he settled one way or the other, and that the public should know if Sandhurst was to have a monopoly of the cadetships. It would have a most injurious effect if the matter were hung up for two years. General PEEL said there had been no alteration in the system, and wished to know whether it was meant to ex clude Sandhurst. The house divided— For the motion For the amendment 217 Majority — 40 The announcement of the division was received with loud cheers by the Opposition. The address was then agreed to. EXCISE DUTIES BILL. On the motion that this bill be read a second time, Mr. P. O'BRIEN said he had a petition to present against the bli from the traders of Dublin. Sergeant DEASY wished to enter his protest against selecting Ireland alone for the purpose of making up a dee ficiency of the revenue. He woule not, however, offer any opposition to the passing of the bill, but he thought that among other taxes of local burthen, that for the general valuation should be placed on the national exchequer. Mr. P. O'BRIEN could not assent to the suggestion of compromise made by the hon. and learned member for Cork. The measure was not •only an injustice to Ireland, because it saddled one portion of the kingdom with the whole of the deficit in the revenue for the year, bat he contended that it weal(' not realise the amount anticipated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He moved that the bill be read a second time that day six months. Mr. ESMONDE seeen 'od tie amendment. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the hon. members who had opposed this bill had not shown any sufficient grounds for its rejection. On former occasions it had been contended that the increase of duty would lead to a large amount of illicit distillation, and that the employment of the constabu lary in excise cases would make them unpopular. Both these predictions had been falsified by subsequent experience. The additions to the duty had not increased illicit distillation, and so far as he was aware, the constabulary were still as popular and as efficient a body as before the duty was increased. These two grounds were those mainly relied upon in former yews by the opponents of any addition to the duty upon Irish spirits, and as they had proved fallacies in practice, they could not now be urged with the weight waich attached to them pre vious to experience. (Hear, hear ) Looking at the question in the abstract, he could not see why such a duty as that on sprit should not be equalised in all parts of the kingdom. He believed thl if it was so in Ireland the effect would be to benefit the largo distiller and manufacturer of spirits, and enable them to compete more successfully with the Scotch and English distillers than they were now able to do ; and, indeed, if the bill passed, he believed that it would be a boon to the dealers of this particular article is Ireland. Mr. GROGAN said the hon. and learned gentleman had forgotten o o class of dealers whom the bill would affect most injuriously—he meant the retail dealers. The effect might be beneficial to the large distillers, but to the large body of publicans, who had investea a great amount of capital in their businesses, and who supplied the wants of the general body of the public, the effect must be injurious and in many eases ruinous. If this measure was passed, he thought that home-made spirits should be placed on the same footing as colonial and foreign spirits in this respect. It was right the evenuo should be protected, but injustice like this ought not to be comniit.ed. He did not believe that a particular trade could not bear such an increase as from 2s. Bd. a gal on to 7s lad, in four years, and should, there fore, support the motion. Mr. MAI;AN supported Ale amendment. Mr. M'EVOY disputed the calculation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with respect to the probable amount of the tax, He believed that no increase in the revenue would accrue from the impo ition of an increased duty. After a few remarks from Lord NAAS and Mr. M'CAlle THY, the house divided, and the numbers— For the second reading For the amendment Majority —192 The bill was then read a second time. CHELSEA WATERWORKS BILL. The bill was read a third time. EXLITEQUER BILLS. The Exchequer Bills, 20,911,500/., Bill was read a third time. THE FRANCHISE PRISONS BILL. This bill was read a second time ' • LONDON CORPORATION REGULATION BILL. Mr BAINES moved that eavc be given for the Corporation of the City of London to be heard by counsel before the select c mvnittee on the Corporation Regulation Bill, against clause 66 of the said bill. Mr. WYLD hoped the committee would be an open one, as here were many objectionable clauses in the bid to which exception might be taken. • Mr. WALT'OLE thought that the Corporation of the City of Loudon would be S 3 well represented on the coin. mittee, that - there was no necessity for it being an open one. Mr. COX said that, as a citizen of London, he objected to ever al of the clauses of the bill. He believed that many of the citizens also objected to these clauses. He thought they onght to have an opportunity of urging their objections be• fore the committee. The motion was, however, agreed to. THE RIVER THAMES. Mr. KENDALL moved the appointment of a select com mittee to tike into consideration Mr. Gurney's report " On the state of the River Thames," and such other su_4gestions as they might deem it expedient to entertain for its purifica tum, especial .y in tho immediate vicinity of the Houses of Parliament.—Agreed to. • LAND . TRANSPORT CORPS. Lord A. V. TEMPEST moved for a select committee to in quire into the justice of the complaints of the officers of the Land Transport Corps, as set forth in their pet tion, pre. sented to this house, Aug. 1857, alleging that they had not received the rate of half-pay which, they state, they were en. titled to claim.—Agreed to. TROOPS IN THE EAST INDIES. Mr MACARTpTEY moved for a return of the number of British troops now serving in India and chargeable to the revenues of that countty, showing the number under each branch of the service, namely staff, cavalry, infantry, artil lery, engineers, marines, and sailors, and the total cost of same for one year, ending Ist Jan., 1858, And, like return of the British forces serving in India, and the total cost of the same for the year coding lstJan., 1856.—Agreod to. The house then adjourned a t a quarter past 1 o'clock. BIRTH S. BADDELEY—On the 23d inst., at Waltham Abbey, the wife of Major Fra ser B addeley, Royal Artillery, of a daughter. LANK ESTER—On the 25th inst., at 8, Saville-row, Bur jington-gardens, the wife of Edwin Lankester, M.D., F.R.S., of a daughter. MARRIAGES. HAWKER - JONES—On the 22d inst., at the Church Of Nicholas, Brighton, William Henry, son of Admiral Hawker, of Ashford Lodge, Hants, to Eugenia Eliza beth, youngest daughter of the late J. Jones, Esq., of Derry Ormond, Cardiganshire. LEWIS—HUNT— On the 21st inst., at St. Margaretia,West minster, Lauriston w interbotham Lewis, Lig. of Tewks bury, solicitor, to Walterin e W ood, third daughter of John Hunt, Esq., of Man?hester. ---• DEATHS. B Henry ß in D—On the 23d st., at Cave C as tl e, Y or k s hi re, He Gee Barnard, Esq , aged 69. CARpEN—On the 22d inst., at R amoan Rectory, Bally. c astle, county Antrim, Admiral John Burman Carden, aged 87. FAmmAN—On the 24th inst., at Lynsted, near Sitting bourne, Samuel Creed Fairman Esq., aged 67. Lor p oN Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sum Office, No. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county of Middlesex, Tacstlay, April 27, 1858, m©] R; ON TIM Tho Rea hours. Stalls ( tries, II to be ha, dilly; am C " S 1 freshmen and Ligh NE' P R Every 1 " TWO one gull 45.; Bo Mr. mil D' 3, TICI DR. X MA 1' ' band; ducted Went greatei exam Tiaida and It at. the itarke Equei litindi ALHJ anus Eight S 4 A at 11.1 Tt thtsi 1N plac lean