The Sun. — London, England, 1859-02-15 00:00:00

other Roman Catholic dignitary, by the operation of which such salute was rendered to him while carrying or accom panying the Host in public procession ? Sir E. B. LYTTON said that there was no such order as that referred to in existence emanating from this co try. There certainly was an order from Lord Hill ; but there was nothing whatever in practice further than what was calculated to afford that protection to the Roman Ca tholic religion which was stipulated for by the treaty under the capitulation of Malta. REPRESENTATION OF SCOTLAND. Sir J. OGILVY asked the Lord Advocate whether he was pr epared to b • in a bill for amending the represen tation r rh ed epeople of Scotland., and, if se, when ; and if he was prepared to bring in a bill this session for sheriff court accommodation in Scotland. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that a bill on the subje ct was under the consideration of the Government. (Hear, hear.) DUTY ON FIRE INSURANCE, &c. Mr. HADFIELD asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he intended to propose measures this session for the reduction of the duty on fire insurances, and for the revi sion and amendment of the stamp acts, and the duties pay able under the same. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged the hon. member to postpone his question until he had made his financial statement. (A laugh.) GOVERNMENT ADVERTISEMENTS IN NEWS PAPERS.—THE RECENT APPOINTMENT OF A MASTER IN LUNACY. Mr. G. CLIVE:—I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Ex chequer whether it is the rale to insert Government adver tisements in those newspapers which enjoy the most exten sive circulation, or, if not, what other rule is adopted ? There is another question which I desire to ask ; and, .in order to enable me to state the circumstances out of which it arises, it is necessary for me to move the adjournment of the house until Thursday next. We have all heard out of doora that it is proposed to confer the office of a master in lunacy, which has recently become vacant, on a gentleman Who is possessed of no legal experience, and who has been, I believe, onlynominally called to the bar. I need not take up the time of the house by comments on the importance of a matter of this kind.. I have no wish to make an attack on the hon. gentleman in question, or on the noble and learned lord— Sir H. WILLOUGHBY—I rise to order. The hon. gentleman should make his motion for the adjournment of the house. The SPEAKER—The hon. gentleman has intimated his intention of concluding with a motion. Mr. CLIVE—It is, I hope, not ne cessary f or me t o di sc l a i m any intention of giving annoyance in any quarter, but the appointment in question is of such a nature that it is neces sary that I should bring forward the subject at the earliest possible moment, in the hope that there will yet be time to have it cancelled. If the appomtment of master in lunacyhas been definitely made, it might be more convenient if I defer red my motion on the subject, but I have mentioned it now in the hope that there is yet time to put a stop to it, and that the noble and learned lord will be induced to reconsider the step he has taken. I need not recall to the attention of the house the numerous cases which occur in lunacy, in which persons have been subjected to improper and unjust imprisonment, and how often there have been cases of relations improperly dealing with persons suffering from aberration of mind. I myself have had some knowledge of such things as a coin missioner in binary, and my experience has shown me that it is an office in the exercise of which in a variety o f cases you are called not only to visit, but to judge of th e s t a t e of mind of numerous persons, and that such a duty requires much tact and knowledge of the subject matter with which you have to deal. Legislation on the subject of lunacy has been rife of late years, and that matter has been made the subject of a number of statutes which regulate the systems to be adopted in lunatic asylums, and every point con nec t e d with the treatment of lunatics. By the first recent act on the subject two commi ss i oners in lunacy were appointed with a liberal salary, and on them devolved the duty of in quiry into the cases of alleged lunatics, and presiding when a jury was required. On th e i n t r oduc tion of that act Lord Lyndhurst, then Lord Chancellor, obtained the consent of the Legislature to the appointment of the commissioners on the solemn assurance that they would be properly chosen. He said " that the remedy he proposed was the appoint- meat of two permanent commissioners whose duties would extend over town and country, and who would be men of learning, ability, and distinction at the bar." (Hear.) I have reason to suppose that the gentlemen appointed to these offices after the passing of that act performed their duties in.a manner to justify the statement of the noble and learned lord. By a subsequent act of the present reign the commissioners in lunacy were changed into masters, and on them devolved every duty which had been performed by the commissioners, and many of those that were formerly carried on by the masters in chancery. Their duties were onerous, but they had a salary of £2,000 a-year, with a re tiring pension of £1,200. (Hear.) Their duty consists not only of visiting asylums, but also of conducting inquisitions as to the state of mind of alleged lunatics, often without a jury, and to preside when a jury is put into requisition. It is their duty to moderate the speeches of counsel, and they preside in cases when the most eminent at the bar are employed before them. (Hear, hear.) They have to go through and examine evidence sometimes extend ing over eight or ten years, and to take up the history of a whole life and lay it before the jury—(hear, hear)—and on them often, if not always, depends the question of th e free dom or liberty of many persons. In recent cases, such as that of Sir Henry Meux and Mr. Ruck, whose wife endeavoured to prove him a lunatic and failed, the question has been most important and difficult to decide. I will only allude to Mrs. Cumming's case,tin which the present Lord Chancellor held a brief. The question then is what are the qualifications which the men ought to possess in order to fulfil all these duties. What are the qualifications required for such duties, and which such a salary as is attached to the office ought to command. (Hear, hear.) We live in an age of examinations ; in every department of the public service examinations pre vail, and now, even preparatory to a call to the bar, a rigid examination is required. And yet this is the time chosen for the appointment of a gentleman who has been only nominally at the bar, who has never h a d th e e d uca ti on o f a lawyer or practised in the profession in his life. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) We can understand the difficulty in which a person in the high position of the Lord Chancellor is placed. We can suppose a model Lord Chancellor as he appears in the distance to the vulgar mind, exercising all possible care and wisdom, and with a sense of what is due to public justice in his endeavours to fill such an office. Though it does not re quire an examination, we can imagine the Lord Chancellor subjecting the candidate to an examination in his own mind, and applying to him every test of his fitness for the office. He would naturally inquire whether the candidate had any knowledge of the subject matter with which he would have to deal, whether he had had any experience of the manage ment of public hospitals or asylums—(hear, hear)—any knowledge of law—(hear, hear)—any familiarity with the law of evidence—(hear, hear)—and any practice in dealing with juries, so as to enable him to preside effectually over the tribunal to which he was to be appointed. (Hear, hear.) All this might be supposed to pass through the mind of the Lord Chancellor, and although he might see before him a long row of Queen's counsel of high eminence in their profession, he might well feel it difficult to decide who among them could best fill Bush an office. What the existing Lord Chancellor has done lam almost afraid to say. The office in question has. been conferred upon a gentleman of whom it must be said that unless he derives inspiration from his proximity , to the woolsack, I know not what his qualifications are. (Hear, hear, and cheers) I have not the honour of the gentleman's acquaintance, but I am told that he is a most agreeable gentleman, but as a lawyer he is not fitted for such an office. The name of the gentleman is Mr. William Francis Higgins, a near connection of the Lord Chancellor. The . appointment has caused great dissatisfaction in the profes sion and out of doors. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) There may be yet time to cancel it, and I hope that will be done. If not I must leave the house to judge if the app o i n t ment is such an one as ought to have been made. I am informed that the gentleman in question has passed his whole life as a clerk in the Colonial-office until September last, when he was appointed a Registrar in Bankruptcy, and not content with that, has now been promoted to the higher office to which I have called the attention of the house. I beg to ask the hon. gentleman, the Secretary for the Home De- partment, whether or not Mr. William Francis Higgins has been a s ppointed by the Lord Chancellor a master in lunacy ? Hear, hear, and cheers.) I beg to move that the house o adjourn to Thursday next. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The hon. gentleman has put on the paper a question, and by that means I have received notice of it, and I meant to have a sked my hon. friend, the Secretary to the Treasury, to answer it. I k now very little about the rules under which. the Government advertisements are inserted in the news papers. I have never interfered, except to express an opi nion t hat a greater aura of the public money was expended in that w a y t h an was advisable. (Hear, hear.) My hon. friend has But that he will give an answer to that question. But the hon. entleman has put another ques tion to me, of w hi ch he h g ad not given notice—(hear)—and although he seemst ohaveconsidered that the circumstances to ' which it relates are of a very exigent character, yet there was nothi ng to prevent the hon. gentleman, if he was unable to put a not i ce on the paper, at least from giving a private notice of his int ention—(hear)—t o int or to some havei friend of the L or d Ch ancellor, so that there ii i i )ig ce tCln an opportunity of o bt a i n i ng facts to which h o h as referred. (Hear.) It has always with been e the custom in parliament to give n o ti ce when questions ar to be publicly asked; but when a pe rsona l question isrias ed e , I thought the rul e was invariable that gentlemen, to which • ever side of the hou se t h ey belong, should not' make in quiries of this kind without notice. (Hear.) I can only say that the statement of the hon. gentleman may or may not be _accurate ; but I know nothing aboutknow nothing of the gentleman or of the office to which the hon. me be? refers, but if the hon. gentl eman had given me notice I could have made inquiries on the subject. I can only add that having made his statement in an unusual manner it will no doubt by some means or other— (hear)—reach the ears for which it is intended, and some reply will of co urse be made to it which I bust will be satisfactory to the hon. gentleman. Sir W. JOLLIFFE—Perhaps the house will allow me to answer the first question put by the hon. gentleman to my right hon. friend, and which I wish to answer publicly, as the matter to which it refers entails l .s a rule at the Tre asry a great burthen o n th e department to which I belong. i to give to new s papers with the largestu circulation the - go vernment advertisements. There is an increasing difficulty in the Treasury in this matter in consequence of the in creased number of newspapers and the decrease of oefm are not the num ber of those which are s t ampe d. stamped, and a still great er num b er a l :: f e an no y t remitted° through the post. The rule at the Treasury is to revise the number of papers on the government list for advertisements, and we have selected what we thought the best for the purpose without reference to politics—(hear) —and including several portions of what is called the cheap press. This is the rule, and I am anxious to state it publicly. Mr. CLIVE—I beg to give notice that I shall repeat my question on the subject of the appointment of a master in lunacy to-morrow. The motion for the adjournment of the house was then withdrawn. HIGHWAYS BILL. Thj bllj Was read 0. secondas time, and ordered to be com mitted. SAL . E OF POISONS BILL. The second readin g of this bill was postponed till Friday. INDIAN FINANCE. —EAST INDIA LOAN. Lord STANLEY then rose and said—Sir, I have to en treat the patience and forbearance of the house while I lay before it which i a statemre ent which, ho wever important ma be more important with refey be the facts to t fers—and rence I believe hardly any f ac t s can to the int eres t s b ot h o f India and of England—and however it may be tre a t e d, w ill , I fear, be somewhat long and tedious. Still, of this I can assure hon. gentlemen, that I have endeavoured, and shall endeavour, to compress what I have to say wi t h in as nar row a compass as is consistent with the necessitie s of clear and full explanation. In the first instance, I think I had better lay before you an outline of the financial state of In dia durin g the last two years as compared with the years ediately preceding. The insurrection began, as we are aware, in the month of May, 1857, At that time di, financial year 1856-7 had just closed. What, then, was the tilting for it a system of excise. (Hear.) I have been in condition of the finances of India at that date ? Taking the communication with the Government of India on this sub exchanges at 2s. to the rupee th e revenue o f 185 6-7 was j est; but I must say that, although the object w ou ld justify £33,303,000. The expendit ure o f th at same year was some temporary sacrifice, I do not think it an obj ec t o f such pressing necessity as to justify any permanent sacrifice of £33,482,000; making a deficit of 5179,000. But it must be revenue. (Hear.) Taking the land revenue at about 60 noticed of this deficit—and the same remark applies to all the per cent. of the whole revenue of India, and taking the . re . turn of 1857-8, from opium, as 20 per cent, of the preceding years for some time back—that there had been laid bzge remaining revenue, we ma d y thus, without any material in out under the general head of public works a sum of accuracy, consider the lap revenue and opium as supply -42,350,006. Now, in India, the term" public works" is corn- ing four-fifths of the whole of our Indian finance. The re prehensive, it includes public buildings, roads, and a great venu e i from otdhejusourni ce s s t l ak will en . together , yielded :;i e el h d ri ed fly in - 18 r 0 h 0 e -variety of items of expenditure, many of which yield no salt £1,442 u ,L an ; in 1850, 53,538,000 ; in 1006-7, X 4,443,798 ; return in a direct form, but may be compared to that out in 1857-8, £3,785,782 ; and in 1858-9, £4,398,960. Miscel laneous items, including all not classed above, give :—ln lay which, in England, a landholder has to make upon his property. It is quite impossible to ascertain by any ac- 1800,. £132,000 ;in 1850, £1,340,000 ;in 1856-7 , £ 3,000,000 ; these sources of revenu e the h ouse will pardon how much may be regarded as aninvestment. But assuming - curate analysis how much of the Indian expenditure on and in 1 85 7-8 , £2,966,091. Considering the great va public works is an outlay in the strict sense of the word, and rie ty of me if I refer them for a more detailed explanation to on% rough estimate that credit may be taken for one-half the annual accounts for Indi a , i n w hi c h they will be found at length. (Hear, h ear .) W hat I have said, as remunerative investments, we shall have for the year however, showsi ui in a. Indian summary what is the real and 1856.7 an apparent deficit of £179,000, but a real surplus— p ta c tical landrevenue, c wl t ircla, ex n cet a il l from t e l e v . o F.t' gllinhcave increase of makin g the deduction I have stated—of more than £1,200,000 ~ territory and an improvement of culture, causes,is comparatively inelastic compared with our taxes at home. Next you have That state of things, compared with the accounts of the previous years, shows a considerable improvement. Of the the opium revenue, which, as I have shown, is somewhat ten years preceding the year 1856-57, beginning with 1846- fluctuating and precarious, since it depends not only upon eetpedewafg the sea . so e n s s e , but also Government,n upon w ctuntane v e e s 47, the first three and the last three show a deficit, and only t h econn the intermediate four exhibit a surplus. If Ido not make myself intelligible, I hope that hon. gentlemen will ask for adverted. These, two sources of revenue, as I h ave sa id, are nearly four-fifth s o f t h e whole. The general result is, any explanation which may be needed. (Hear, hear.) The that an increase of material prosperity in India does not deficit of the year 1853-4 was £2,100,000; that of 1854-55 produce upon the revenue the same immediate result as in. was £1,700,000; that of 1855-56 wa s exactly £1,000,000 ; England, wher e so many o f your taxes rest upon the con while the deficit of 1856-57, as I have just stated, w as s ag power of the people. We all know here that if a £170,000. We have, therefore, this result, that at the out- tax is taken off the revenue f ee l s th e e ff ect i n a few monthsin an increase of the Excise and Customs' returns. In India, break of the mutiny the equilibrium between income and as I shall be able to show, although the amount of trade expenditure had been very nearly restored ; and that, as I has enormously increased withinthe last 20 years, the effect su upon i thsmearieiveNe has ear, been -. 5' r U e t l i a d tl er v l l a y e nativealihoue v n e ot ab ent - s must remind the house, with an average outlay of £2,000,000 per annum on works of improvement. We now lite which preceded ours many taxes existed that have never come to consider what change has been produced in that been abolished. There were taxes on sale and purchase, state of things by the disturbances of the last two yearn. transit duties, poll taxes, and taxes upon almost every action The accounts for the year 185 7-58 have not yet bee n re- of a man's life. In a majority of cases these taxes were ceived. They will shortly arrive, and will be laid before the that ze d n ar t? )i the ty objelti u o t n ihey pru thazere uneq ual , had, alto gether, v an ad: house in the month of Maynext. We have, however, a sketch vantage that is wanting in our system—namely, all estimate for that year, 1857-58, which gives the revenue at classes paid more equally than they do at present. (Hear, £31,544,000, exeficeitnaiintulrlina, whichln India w ate ma y reckonL39,l2o,ooO, hear.) Under British admini s t r ati on l arge c la s se s i n I n di a malting an estimated s and timate th d e d have escaped taxation altogether. The opium revenueis ne with sufficient accuracy at £7,600,000. To that deficiency pai d by foreigners, the land revenue by the cultivators of must be added an extra expen di ture u 3 soil. But except the duty on salt, which is in effect a Po n troops and stores poll-tax, and a few Customs' duties, the mercantile classes in England, which nearly reaches £1,500,000. We have, in India pay a, •ilatelnothinf to the revenue. Various er therefore, for the year 1857-58 a total estimated deficit plans . have . 'a -l e ' - .•-; laid ntdorenot the Gy m eriii i men e f or amounting in round numbers to as nearly as possible tell it P i ° s tun a g very new difficult and delicate matter to attempt £9,000,000. I now proceed to the estimate for 1858-59, the to impose a new tax in England. But it is far more financial year which will close on the 30th of April next. so in India than in England, because there is The revenue as estimated for that year is £33,016,000, and no doubt that changes or worse, are attended with wi e t t li t l i anBer, the expenditure, including home charges of all descriptions, ywehmetmheren are e Eiltbette viewed, as o the wo ae rs t e ; (5 1 a foreign ° s Govern e me o nt Go is £45,629,000, making a deficit of £12,600,000. Add to that necessarily must be, with jealousy and suspicion. What the deficit of the previous year, which was £9,000,000, and is, perhaps, more important to consider is, that in India you we have upon the two years since the mutiny began a total have not the same means of ascertaining what the public defficiency amounting to £21,600,000. The outlay upon feeling really its, from you h ha a ve d not the same facility for es public works during those two years was only £3,000,000, drawing(Hear,) A a l e .arge ° ln ni crease of indirect would check instead of £4,000,000, as it should have been according to that development which we all hope to see in India; while the average of previous similar periods. The estimate of direct taxes unless imposed with great care and judgment Indian expenditure for the year 1859-60 has not yet been in a country so vast as India, are very costly to collect and . received, and we have, therefore, only the comparatively llgsble co to ns a i b d use ti in o t w h e et av c e oll n e u c t tion n . T e a d ki t :g dir t ee he t 7 h t e hag a s l small estimate for home charges, with which I shall deal in t o Governmen e t 7 'm India n i by saying, v Yon shall lay on this or more conveniently in a subsequent part of my statement. In that new tax." We have thought it right rather to confer the calculations which I have submitted to the house no ac- with them; and I hope it may be possible, as the result of count is taken of the compensation to be made for losses of our deliberations, to add considerably to our present in private property in the disturbances. There is, as many c ome b tutile e t ofn feel I cann ° additions hold revenue be such as to doutthehope that with th ese hon, gentlemen are aware, a commission sitting in Indi a t o approach the present rate of exp en dit ure . P er h a p s the investigate that subject. I have applied officially to know house will allow me to read upon this subject an extract when it is likely to report, and also, if possible, for an esti- from a financial despatch addressed to Lord Canning on the mate of the amount that will be required to carry out its 19th of last month recommendations ; but I have not as yet received any reply " A graver duty is . , however, imposed on your Govern to that communication. The question is often put to those ment by thipcertainty which exists as to caused p e e d riodwhe by the n who are concerned in Indian administration in this coon- the etiy extraordinary ll c eor be materially diminished ; and by the try, " Upon what principle do you intend to deal with these increase, from year to year, of the debt of India , which, if claims for compensation F' I wi s h it were i n my power to allowed to continue unchecked, cannot fail at an early give to that question a satisfactory reply. It is, however, period to prove the e jurious t tor t o e ur nu c e re , l t it in j ia see ( no reason oA quite impossible to lay down any general rule for dealing do ub t to res that Oug___, t in ordinary times, and by the exercise of a with these claims until their amount and their nature are the proper and judicious economy in the several departments, better known than they are at present. The diffioultY of civil as well as military, to be ample for 'all purposes of case is this, that you cannot, with a ny regard to justice, the Government, including a liberal outlay on apply o ne rule to European claims and another to claims works of improvement. But the ques ti on o f the manner in which to meet the heavy d is b ursements preferred by natives. There are many natives who have been engaged in the service, or who have taken the part of o f an unusual character, which, owing to late even t s , the Government, who have fought with us, and who have will have to be defray e d i n eac h year for some yearsto come, both here and in India, is of a wholly distinct suffered loss by plunder in the same manner as Europeans nature. To that question it is now my duty to call your have, and it is quite obvious that, whatever rule we lay earnest attention. It has often been asserted that the let down for dealing with those claims, no distinc- Position t. of new taxes, a task of di ffi culty in any country, is tion. can be drawn between the claims of native imprac tica b le romlettne land. N evertheless, where the revenue is principally the exigencies of the sufferers and those of European residents. m %—ear, present time are so emergent that I wish the subject to hear.) That is a circumstance which, of course, increases receive your mature consideration. It is manifestly ruinous enormously both the amount of these claims and the dif- to continue a system of loans to meet the general expendi tM'A of the State. I need hardly say that , in any measure ficulty of dealing with them. I regret that I can offer which- you may consider practicable, either for augmenting no explanation upon this subject except in these general revenue or reducing charge, it is my anxious desire that no terms. Against these claims for compensation there will, unnecessary check should be placed on the works of public however, have to be set a considerable amount which will improvement which were in progress _previously to the late be derived from the forfeiture of land and pensions by those calamitous ete d v is e tu t r s b:ri t t e andaic , i mutiny Lye am elii gratified ar to su ob s : who have been leaders in the insurrection. lam sure the ended. It s ho u ld ever be borne in mini that in p artiall y house will feel that it would be most inexpedient and most where the main ortion of the revenue is raised from the impolitic, even in our present financial position, to attempt land, railways, canals, works of irrigation, and othe r under to press these compensations for the sake of revenue . takings which tend to raise the market val i ze to th: o prosil a u r c a e (Hear.) An amnesty has been declared, and we are bound of the soil, ent f .m orm erea th se e found ationbest on w to the income of te State, and that this by the spirit as well as by the letter of that amnesty. result „ n only bo obtained by a corresponding improve (Hear.) All the mercy ought to be shown which is consis- ment in the condition of the mesa of the people. tent with the strict demands of justice ; and it must also be 41111 p positive instructions as to the exact mode of taxation borne in mind that, even from the property which may be AINIFyet been sent out, probably the house will not think legitimately placed in our hands, a large portion will pro- it expedient that I should now discuss as to the greater or bably have to be deducted to meet the just claims of our less expediency of one or other plan which may be chosen. (Hear, hear.) But if the state of India be that, with what native allies who have stood by us in this emergency. ever increase of revenue which may be possible, we cannot (Hear, hear.) After sparing all who can put forward any hope to meet the present rate of expenditure, there is only reasonable claim to be spared, and recompensing all who can one other resource to which we can look, and that is :dimi fairly claim recompense, I anticipate that there Will remain nished outlay. (Hear, hear.) There have appeared more in the hands of the Indian Government some, perhaps a a re n critlz . grea nk l te e r an gr s o h un ew d for i3 h a Les figures, r r e e s dug a d t e t x h p e en p di re tu se r n e i considerable balance to meet the claims arising out of losses deficiency, enormous as it is, of £21,500,000, to which I in the course of the mutiny. I propose now to examine as have referred, is wholly due to the extraordinary charges briefly as I can one or two of the principal items from which caused by the insurrection. (Hear.) The military expenses is derived the revenue of India. I need not tell the house of 1856-1857, which I take as an average year, as it did not that the chief source of income in India is the land revenue. vary t very ut exmpeuncshesfoerf rizish7.s_lrsfBor;htwArewasSltliise4aos(tlo.earThuit3. In the returnfrom which I have taken the figures that lam the mutiny, were 518,212,000. The military expenses of about to read the land revenue is coupled with two other the year 1858-1859, which was the second year of the small taxes—the sayer and the abkara, or spirit duty—and mutiny, and the last of which we have any return, were with some small subsidies from native states. lam unable estim a ted he at £22,98 i 0 1 ( 8 )0 4 thus showing an increase, in round to separate these items, but the deduction to be made on i t a he held'o o f mniellitrairy e 4 e oo n , s o es oo a in on t e hol u r i ze ax liti un en dg those accounts will be but small. The, figures which I that, there other losses which are distinctly traceable to the shall submit to the house will show that the land revenue, insurrection. In 1857-1858 there was a loss of revenue by with these small items thrown in, constitutes nearly 60 per non-collection of £3,600,000. In 1858-1859 there was a loss sf cent., or three-fifths, of the whole of th e financial resources revenue of £775,000, and th ere was a loss of treasures plundered of £1,275,000, m a ki ng together £5,650,000. I of India. That land revenu e ha s grown w ith t h e growth ask the house to listen to these figures because they show of our territorial possessions. At the commencement of that to o he two causes, the war expenses and the losses the present century it amounted to £7,330,000. In the consequent upon the war, we may attribute a loss equal to year 1810 it rose to' £13,000,000. It then appears to have £23,650,000. The deficit has only reac h e d £2 1,600,000,and remained stationary until 1840, when it was £13,580 , 000 . rtheveernefuoereeflLOZO,toooowarhadsvtehboeese ex t ra npaid out of the ordinary charges. (Hear, hear.) In 1850 it had r i sen t o 17,3 95,000 ; and in 1856-57, the' I do not propose to ask the house to enter into the details first year with which lam dealing, and that immediately of the civil expenses. Ido not believe that the civil t o the mutiny, it had reached the amount of penses have varied much of late years. They have not un £19,080,000, being the largest amount which it has at any dergone any revision since the change of Government, and time realised. In 1857-58, the first year of the disturb- it must be obvious to the house that whatever may therein maces, the land revenue fell to £16,671,000; in 1858-59 it be effected that change cannot for the moment be produc rose again to £18,392,000. Now, sir, it must be observed tive of any considerable saving. I do, however, look for cf this item of revenue, that it i s b y its very nature sus- wa r d t o a cons id era bl e f uture reduction of the civil expendi ceptible of only a slow and gradual rate of increase. In tare, and it may be operated by a double process. One pro those parts of India, as in Bengal, where a perpetual set- cess is that which for the last 20 years —ever since the estab tlement exists, where the landowner is guaranteed against lishment of the uncovenanted service—has been going on to being at any future time called upon to pay more to the a certain extent—namely, the substitution of cheap native State than he contributes at present, it is obvious that agency for the comparatively costly agency of Europeans— there can be no increase of revenue from this source except (hear, hear)—and the other process, which has not been so in so far as new lands are brought into cultivation. The often adverted to, but nevertheless it is worth while to bear in same state of things exists, though to a lesser degree, mind, is that as India is brought every year nearer to Eng where permanent settlements—that is, settlements for long land, as the inconveniences of distance and _exile tend every terms of years—h ave b een i n t ro d uce d. N ow, t h e tendency year to diminish—we all know how m uc h less they are than all over India at the present time is to favour long or per- they were 30 years ago—probably Europeans will be willing manent settlements, as affording a greater amount of se- to serve in India at a lower rate of salary than at present. It curity to the purchaser; and we must, therefore, consider is often made a subject of complaint that the salaries of this branch of the revenue as being comparatively inelastic. the covenanted service are fixed at a very high rate. Ido 'The increase of which it is capable arises principally from not think it necessary or possible to deny the fact. I have two causes. One cause of increase, which has been very no doubt that it is one of the best ;paid administrative ser active in times past, but of which we may hope there will vices in the world. (Hear.) Nor do I care to argue that be no more just at present, is addition to the British terri- it may or may not bear revision; but this I do say, and I tory, and consequent increase of the area over which the venture to dwell upon .the fact as of some importance, that tax is levied. The other cause is the taking . into cultiva- ii• one has att em pt e d t o d ea l w i t h this question who has tion of lands hitherto waste. That process is likely consi- not been struck with the extreme difficulty of getting men derably to increase as railways and other means of coin- of high attainments and igood position at home to under munication open up the interior of the country—(hear, take the official labour in India. (Hear.) Even with ap hear)—and we have, therefore, in its results, a probable pointments in this well-paid civil service thrown open for source of great wealth at some future time, but one which competition there has not been that eagerness to compete no prudent financier can with any approach to certainty which might have been loooked for—certainly not the same calculate upon becoming available withm a short time. eagerness which there would have been if the appointments Next in importance to the land revenue is that derived had been of infinitely smaller value at home. (Hear.) In from opium. The increase in the revenue derived from the one branch of the service, the medical establishment which opium monopoly is very remarkable. At the beginning of is also open to competition,: at the last examination the the century the revenue derived from opium was £372,000. number of candidates hardly exceeded the number of ap- In the year 1810 it had amounted to £935,000. In 1830 it pointments, there being, I believe, 39 places and 42 candi was £1,500,000, and it remained in that state until 1840, dates. lam quite sure, and all those who have anything when it was under £1,500,000. In 1850 it had risen to to do with India will confirm that which lam prepared to £3,558,000—an enormous increase, which was attributable lay down as a general rule—namely, that you can hardly to the new trade which had opened with China. In 1857 get professional men who are doing well in this country to the opium revenue was £4,696,709. In 1857-8 it had risen go to India, unless they have the inducement ofa double re to Z 6,443,706, being an increase of £1,800,000 i n a year. I n muneration at least. If a t es t were wanted of the accuracy 1858-2 the revenue derived from this source had fallen to of that view I should referto a service entirely unconnected £ 5 ,195,191. It is obvious that opium is a source of revenue with the Government—the service of the various railway which varies with the season, with the demand that may companies established in India. Any one who regards the happen to exist for the article, and with the plentifulness high civil salaries of India as intentionally extravagant had or scarcity of the crop. The house will see how large a better look at the rate of remuneration being paid by these revenue. is involved in the continuation of that trade and railway companies, and it will be found that the difference will • judge from the statements I have made how 'rally between the Indian and the English rates of remuneration is the financial resources of India are affected by this te source fully as great in that as in the Government service. (Hear, possession o f f (Hear.) The house are all aware that the hear.) If we can hardly hope for any great augmentation of two separna)e- t his ,ro °rim !monopoly has been objected to on Indian revenue, nor any large reduction of Indian ex confess I have always regarded as devoid of force, has been to this—how to keep in future years the military is the intention of the C ement made this evening, that it expenditure within its former limits. (Hear, hear.) It trade in opium. (Hear.) al,„ ese Government legalise the is quite idle to enter into estimates or prospective cal to ture of opium can therefore be trgument against the cul- culations on that subject, No plan can be framed which system of importation into Cbi na age W d h hpon the contraband events occurring in India may not overthrow. But there l e d. The other objection comes from ICh has so long pro- are some general consideration,s which encourage in my in a i favour of 'a total prohibition of the t t t hose who argue mind the hope that when peace is again thoroughly re in British India. I only mention th s e tio fo n r o t f h opium st f orel it N n ve sll . .a ll e be ti lible to d s o in India w i i;tll o n re olge e r amount ti3rea pose of saying that, setting aside the opinion fiscal c onsider e at r i l o ur ns - ' ln the fif•s Y t place, ar nowfao necessary e p s eriod has the military u as of the present time, I regard ofa aargnment a s unso a . un in cendancy of England been as complete as at the present theory as to what tne, a ll t I uovernnient really is time Within the limits of India there is no Power which (Cheers.) I own that I nave never heard an l ' • ' the prohibition of 9 . rum culture in Bengal that p ea . for will quarrel with us. (Hear, hear.) Whether in India or might this country, we have profited sufficiently by the experience favour of the Mai not equally be urged 111 be the ab use ne Law iof the past few years not to feel inclined t o . pursue that England. (Cheers. ) Whatever may of opiu m greater than the abuse of spirits policy of annexation which has undoubtedly in a great de in India, it can hardly - be S far from o i b Free been the cause of the present disaster. (Cheers.) There in this country. (Hear, hoar.) ° 't is used habit at a is another consideration which may lead us to look forward poison to those who use it, I be li ev e . ' to the probably w u ith Y ..'Prospective reduction of military expenses. The but moderately by large classes in India, an d hear.) Ther B ritish army in India is now only one portion of the entire out any serious injury to their health. ( Hea r, of the opium e complete, of England. When telegraphic communication is is, however, consequent upon the legalisa tion h uld not with the facilities which steam is giving every traffic with China, one consideration of which we_i3_ s ho uld day, it is obvious that the distance is lessened, and that our lose siht and that is the possibility that the Il e to G the - ho military resources are in a position to be brought to bear u vernment, having now abandoned their objectio.ns culture before.P°(2Hany Indian disturbance much more rapidly than introduction of opium into China, may legalise its So, again, in India itself. The great sys tem of railway .) in China itself. (Hear, hear.) In that case the revenue .. ._ co mmunication to which I shall . presently Ido advert, which at present is arising from opium cannot fail to be affected. (Hear. ) . time bring togetherent only commenced, will in a short not participate in the dbjections to the culture of opium in there will then ) the entire peninsula, and the troops India, but I confess it may be a question how far its culti t eousl Then , e e ffi cient • in many quarters almost simul vation ought to be kept as a monopoly in the hands of the an borne ein iailfriwe have to remember, and it is not Government. It is impossible to deny that upon a general always Indiacomposed of , how large a part of our dominions in considerations the principle of that monopoly is open to provues which have hardly had time grave objections, and many of those who have considered to become co nsoli dated an d m.corporated under our rule , of subject would begladtheir to the 'bil I to see way possi i y Within the last 20 years we have added t he Punjab, Scinde . of doing Na ore, and Oude, and it is obvious that a ' ' away with the Cloverzunent monopoly, and substi- Fegu, g province --- newly acquired by force requires a much larger garrison to asked when we speak of an average annual expenditure*of defend it than it is likely to require 20 or 30 years after- £2,000,000 upon these works, what result have you to show ? wards. I entertain the hope that the present increase of mili- In some degree the figures which I have quoted will supply tary expenditure will not be of a permanent character. That an answer to , that question, but with regard to the much hope is founded upon the prospect which we have of peace larger portion we are in the position of the cultivator a t thi s and tranquillity, upon the greater facility with which we p er i o d o f t h e year—the seed is sown, but the crop is yet to can bring our resources to bear, and upon the reduced come. The Government has done much itself in this respect, amount of forces which will or ought to be required to keep and it has also encouraged private efforts. The works upon in order those provinces which have become fairly consoli- the largest scale, and upon which the largest expenditure dated into our system of government. But the house will has been incurred, are the railways. The length of lines naturally wish to know what, according to the latest returns, sanctioned is 4,847 miles ; the length in course of construe is the present strength of our forces in India as compared with tion is 3,038 miles ; and the length opened for traffic is 559 a recent year. On the Ist of January, 1857, the European miles. In the course of the year, if our calculations are troops in India were 45,522 ; by the last returns they were verified, there will be 747 additional miles opened ; in 1860, 91,590. The native troops on the Ist of January, 1857, 279 miles more ; in 1861, 296 miles more ; that is to say, if were 232,224 ; by the last returns they were 243,956. So these calculations are verified, which I have no reason to that the European forces in India have been doubled, and doubt, within three years from the present time more than the native troops, notwithstanding all that has taken place, 3,100 miles of railway will be open. I think that this have been of necessity rather augmented than diminished. state of things, showing as it does that for every mile of But it is necessary to say that many th ousan d s—l am not railway open there are six miles under construction, prepared to state the precise number — w h o appear as part justifies the statement which I made to the house the other of the native army are local levies, raised to meet the emer • night that we are now arrived just at that very point of gency of the moment, and should not be considered as form- time when the outlay on these works is the greatest, and ing a portion of our permanent force in Indi a . (Hear, hear.) the return upon them is the least (Hear, hear. Now, I come now to an important branch of my subject—the let us see what is the amount of liability incurred by present state of the Indian debt. I may mention, for the the Government of India on account of railways. In the sake of being intelligible, that when I speak of the Indian first place, the land is given by the Government, and debt, I include not only the home debt of India, but all guarantees--usuallyat the rate of 5 per cent—are also given debts bearing interest for which the revenues of India are to companies in almost all cases, the exceptions being very liable. It is common to hear of the rapid increase of the few and to a trifling amount only. The total capital guaran- Indian debt, and perhaps the house may not be aware that, teed is £39,731,000. Of that amount £19,221,000 has been however great the increase of that debt absolutely con- paid up. We may say in round numbers, therefore, that the sidered may be, yet relatively—which is a fair way of test- total amount of our liabilities for these guarantees is ing it—to the amount of the revenue upon which it is a £40,000,000, and that one-half has been paid up; that the charge, their has been up to the year 1856-7 noincrease what- total amount of interest for which we shall become liable is ever since the beginning of the century. That can be shown £2,000,000, and theta present the interest paid is £1,000,000. 201. 0001 n. In n BO lB O 10thteheddebebt twwasaa £29,200,000,£16,600,000, any But I do not believe that those liabilities can be regarded in sense as burdens upon the Government of India. (Hear.) and the revenue £16,600,000. In 1820 the debt was Setting aside entirely the enormous indirect advantages an by d a th fe e w rev p e lai nu n e r £37,000,000, and the revenue £21,300,000. In 1830 the debt which will accrue to the Government from opening up the was £45,000,000, and the revenue £29,900,000. In 1840 the country, I believe it will be found that on the working of the debt was £33,800,000, and the revenue £19,500,000. That lines themselves there will be rather a gain than otherwise. reduction of debt was due to the application of the commer- In this view lam fortified by Lord Dalhousie, the author of cial assets ofthe Company. In 1850 the debt was £31,900,000 the railway system in India, who has recorded his opinion and the revenue £25,800,000 ; while in 1856-7 the debt was that when once a line is finished the Government will pr0 £55,000,000, £55,000,000, and the revenue £33;300,000. Th e house will nably not in any case be called upon to pay interest upon see that only once in all that series of yea rs ha s the debt ex- any of these guarantees—that is to say, his estimate is the t seeded the income of two years. It w as b e l ow the revenue in every case the profit upon these lines will exceed 5 per of two years at the beginning of the century ; it was below cent. I have endeavoured to ascertain what materials we it in 1856-7; and only at one periosl—l think in 1850—it have for forming a conclusion upon the subject from the had increased at a greater ratio than the revenue. It is re- experience we have. Those materials as yet are very scant. markable to see, generally speaking, how nearly the pro- In the Bengal Presidency 121 miles of railway, which are portions of the two remain the same. Since the late out- open from Calcutta to Raneegunge, pay 7 per cent. By l ed debt, the state of affairs has become altered. The funded last returns the traffic upon that line has nearly doubled debt, including every liability of which up to the resent since 1856, and taking that into consideration—although no time we are aware, is £74,500,000. Of that amount the home doubt it is a good deal due to the conveyance of troops and debt is £15,000,000, and there has been raised in India military stores—it bears out the opinion to which I have re- L 59,500,000. The amount raised in India is held by natives b e en In Bombay, upon 88 miles of railway which have in the proportion of two-fifths to three-fifths held by Euro- been opened, the returns are 41 per cent. With respect to peens. From the total amount of debt I have omitted a sum the Presidency of Madras Ido not know what the returns of £7,000,000, because, as no claim can be made upon it, we are ; but it is fair to bear in mind that we are not at present cannot consider it in any sense a charge:upon the revenue. I in a position to judge of what the receipts may ultimately be, may advert here to a measure, sanction in the course of because when only a small section of a line is finished, and it last year, for allowing the payment in England, by bills ends abruptly, perhaps in a jungle instead of having an im upon the Government of India, of the interest of the Indian portant town for its terminus, we cannot expect that the debt. That measure was adopted at the instance of the traffic will be anything like what it will become when the Chamber of Commerce in Calcutta, and of mercantile bodies line is finished from end to end and great inland markets here. It was recommended to us in strong terms by the are by its means connected with the coast. On the East In- Government of India, on the ground that it would tend dian lines the cost of constructionfhas averaged £11,500 per to increase the value of these securities. Now, when that mile, which is about one-third of the English average ; but measure is criticised it is common to say that it will have then the land has cost them nothing. When this system of the effect of enabling the natives more readily to get rid of railway communication which is now being carried out shall their liabilities, and inducing Europeans to take their place be completed, we shall have four great arterial lines of rail and that thus the Govenunent of India will lose the hold way, opening up the whole of India. One from Kurrachee which it at present possesses upon the interest and fidelity to Hyderabad will connect the Indus with the sea, oening of native capitalists. Ido not believe that, even a s a ma tt er up the Punjab and Central Asia to trade. Another will of argument and theory, that criticism is well founded, descend from Lahore, through the North-West P rov i nces , Whatever brings th e compet i t i on of Europeans into the d own to Calcutta, and on eastward to Dacca. A thi r d, tra native market necessarily h as th e effect of raising the gene- versing the centre of the continent, will link Calcutta with ral credit of the Government, and therefore of increasing Bombay; and a fourth will unite Madras and Bombay, and the value of its secu r iti es t o the natives who hold them. thus open up the entire south. (Hear, hear.) It is said that (Hear, hear.) Nothi ng w ill i n d uce natives to lend their it is more important for the Governmentof India to,complete money freely to the Government so much as seeing that the undertakings which they have commenced than to em- Englishmen resident in this country have confidence in their bark in new ones. But upon new works something, though own securities, and th e con t rar y o p i nion would undoubtedly not much, has been done. Last July a branch line was produce distrust in the nati ve mind. (Hear.) But, to turn sanctioned, connecting Bangalore with. Madras. Bangalore from theory to what has actually happened, we find that, is an important military station ; it stands on high table though the time du r i ng w hi c h thi s measure h as b een in land; the climate is healthy, and it opens large and attrac operation has be en v er y limited, the proportion of native tive tracts to settlers. In November also a guarantee was subscriptions, so far from diminishing, has rather increased, given for the formation of a line from Calcutta to Matlah, a Between the 2d of June and the 21st of December last, a distance of only 25 miles, which will give to Calcutta a new period of about seven months, the European subscriptions port, and will effect a considerable saving in time in getting amounted to £3,229,000, and the native to £2,412,000, a to the sea. Surveys also are being commenced for trunk good deal more than the general proportion which has lines through Oude and Rohilcund by the Oude Railway hitherto existed.... viz., two-fifths for natives to three-fifths Company. A line from Coringa to Berar also has been for Europeans, (Hear, hear.) I may here mention the projected, and is referred to the Government of India. It total amount of debt incurred by the Government of India will open up the cotton districts, and the only objections to since the Ist of May, 1857; in other words, since the out- it are that it will be a competing line with the navigation break of the mutiny. There has been raised in India by of the Godavery, and that the district will be opened the 51 per cent. loan £8,712,000, the home bond debt has to the Bombay side by another line. I mention these produced £3,105,000, and the debenture loans £7,997,000, because they are the principal works which have been giving a total of £19,8 14 ,000. Now, reverting from the pre- brought under the consideration of the Government for sent to a period more remote, it is worth notice how mate- some time back, and to show that what could be done has rially in the course of the present century the credit of the been done to facilitate the advance of works already in pro- Indian Government has improved, In 1800, upon the gress. But any difficulty that there may be in that respect comparatively small amount of debt which then existed, does not rest, I apprehend, with the Government, but with the Government had to pay 81 per cent. The average the companies, who do not always find it easy to obtain the amount now paid iipon the whole of the present debt is necessary funds for carrying on their works. With regard little more than 4 per cent. (Hear, hear.) It ought to to other public works, not railways, I will mention the most be remembered, when we are considering the question of important lately sanctioned :—First, the Madras Irrigation the future solvency of the Indian Government, that its Company has received a guarantee of 5 per cent. upon debt of £74,500,000 has been incurred in what has been £1,000,000; second, at Madras a pier has been ordered at little else than one constant series of wars. (Hear, hear.) a cost of £103,000, which is to be completed in two and a- There have been a Mahratta campaign, a Nepaulese war, half years • third, at Kurrachee wor k s cost i ng £140,000 are and a Burmese war, whi c h alone cose£ls,ooo,ooo. The n sanctioned' for improving harbours, the period for complet we had the Affghan expeditionovars in Scinde, the Pun- ing which is spread over three or more years; fourth, plans jasab campaign, a second Burmese war, and now we have h ave b een di recte d to b e prepared for improving the harbour the present insurrection. I shall not go into the question of Sedashevaghur, south of Goa, and connecting it with the how far all of these wars were inevitable ; but I say country inland ; fifth, a plan for rendering the Godavery that when we compare the amount of liability incurred navigable for a distance of 300 miles is referred to Madras ; in India in consequence of that almost uninterrupted sue- and, sixth, there has been a considerable outlay upon small cession of wars with the financial difficulties of almost any steam cargo-barges and tugs for the navigation of the Ganges European State, our only wonder will be, not that the In- and Indus-15 miles in all. (Hear.) Ido not mention dian debt has reached its present amount, but that it is not smaller undertakings, which, though of local importance, a good deal larger. (Hear.) Lot me now call attention to are of no general interest; but there are two plans whichhave a topic which ought to be considered in connexion with this been taken in hand by the Government which are of so im subject, the position of the English Exchequer in regard to portant a character that I am bound to call attention to Indian debt. lam aware that the uniform policy of the them. One is the establishment of telegraphic communica- Parliament and the Government of this country has been tion between thisecountry and India. After the failure of to decline all responsibility in regard to the debt of India, the experiment with the Atlantic cable it was impossible which has been held to be a charge only on the Indian Ex- not to feel that the undertaking presented a greater amount chequer. (Hear, hear.) Dealing with the present state of of difficulty and a greater risk of failure than had been at affairs, I may say at once that lam not going to recommend first anticipated. But, whatever the difficulty or the risk any change in that policy. (Cheers.) I know well the of failure, still the object appeared to the Government to be' alarm which any such proposition would create, and I know one of so much importance, and the saving that would be the refusal which it would inevitably receive. (Hear,. hear.) effected in every way so great, that we thought it to be But this is a question which will recur again and again, and our duty to incur that expenditure. A guarantee of 41 which will have to be considered in the future as well as in per cent. upon a capital of £BOO,OOO was accordingly the present. Observing, then, that Ido not speak now with given, and operations were begun at once. lam told any reference to Practical action at present, I would ask the that the cable is nearly ready, and the promoters anti house seriously to consider how far, looking at the fact that cipate that they will be able to lay it as far as Aden more than £50,000,000 has been contributed by English by June next. Beyond Aden, where the line touches the capitalists, it would be morally possible for this country southern coast of Arabia, which is inhabited by wild tribes, altogether to repudiate the Indian debt without shaking its there is more risk, and the difficulties are considered own credit ? (Hear, hear.) I would likewise ask the greater. We have, however, communicated with the Bora house to bear in mind, that if ever the time should come bay Government, and directed them to offer all the assist when the established policy in this respect should undergo ance in their power. But we do not rely upon a single line. a change, and when a material guarantee should be given The Turkish Government have initiated a line of their own for these liabilities, that guarantee would operate to reduce from Constantinople to Bussaret, and the Indian Govern the interest paid upon the Indian debt by not less than ment on its own account, or some private company, will £750,000, or even £1,000,000, which, formed into a sinking undertake the completion of that line on to Kurrachee. In fund, would go far to pay off the whole. At present India this way the risk of interrupti on will be less. The othe r on the one hand is paying a great deal more in the way of scheme to which I have referred, and which has received interest than with the assistance of this country she need the sanction of the Government, relates to the supply of pay, and we on the other hand are apt to consider that as we civil engineers for the East India service. Hitherto civil have nothing to do with it the amount is indifferent to us, engineering in India has been carried on exclusively in one though after all it is a matter of doubt whether practically we of two ways. Either military engineers—themselves not are so entirely free from all responsibility. I will ask the house always conversant with civil duties—have been taken from now to consider what is the amount of burden to which their professional pursuits for that purpose, or engineers the people of India and the people of England are subjected have been engaged and sent out from England, arriving in by their debts. You may take two tests by which to India, for the first time in their lives, and having there, ascertain that. You may. take first --and probably it is the owing to the difference of climate, of 'the supply of labour, fairest test—the ratio which the: interest paid bears to . the and of material, a great deal to learn. It has been found ne total revenue. That interest in India is about £3,500,000 cessary too to pay these gentlemen at exceedingly high on an income of £33,000,000, or little more than 10 per rates, because they had to be renumerated both for the work cent. ; in England the proportion of interest on debt to the they did and tor the interruption of their professional career gross revenue is neat two-fifths, or 40 per cent. This at home, B o th th ese systems having been found defective, I comparison is taken, too, at a most unfavourable time, when propose nove4o appoint a special engineering service. The England has been enjoying an almost unbroken peace of 45 appointments will be competed for by young me throughr years, whereas in India there has been nothing but a series taro age. They will be required to have passed a of wars. Looking at it in another light—the pressure on certain practical training here, and they will be sent to the population—while the amountperhead onthe 130,000,000 India on a small salary to acquire further instruction in of people included in the area of our Indian taxation their duties. They will then be regularly taken into Ge is not more than 145., in England it is £2B per head. Ido vernment employ for life, with pensions at the same rate, not mean at all to compare the material resources of the probably, as are given to other =covenanted servants. I two countries, but looking to the future as well as the pre- believe - that the effect of thii plan will be to sent, wherever you have what you have in India, a fertile produce a considerable saving of expense, and certainly soil and an industrious people, I say you have there the an increase of efficiency in that corpa. There is no materials for future prosperity! (Hear, hear.) Therefore, doubt we shall be able to find work for them, and one when we are told of the comparative poverty of the Indian advantage of the proposal; which will be shortly people, it is a fair question to ask whether the continuance laid before the public, is that it will not involve on the part of that comparative poverty is necessary. (Hear, hear.) I of the Government any permanent outlay ;it will not iit now to show how far at the pr esen t t i me and for some volve the establishment of any college or institution, but it time past the development of th e material resources can be carried out almost at a mom en t' s not i ce, without of India has proceeded, and I cannot but think that upon giving any one a ground of complaint or creag any per that subject the public mind is not well informed. (Hear, manent charge: lam not willing entirely to pasafrom this hear.) I take the last 20 years, beginning from 1837, and I subject of public works without alluding, however briefly, divide them into periods of five ye ars eac h . Taking the to the amount ofreturn which has been obtained from some aggregate imports and exports for that time, I find that in of a particular class of works—irrigation, which have been the first period of five years ending 1842, the aggregate im- already completed in India. (Hear.) ports into India were £43,500,000; in the next period, end- " The Celeroon aricah, opened in 1836-7, cost £21,700 mg 1847, £62,500, 000 ; in the next period, ending 1852, the average net profit yearly , for 16 years was £25,700 £69,500,000 • and in the last period, ending 1857, about 120 Per cent. The Godavey aricah was opened in £101,500,000. (Hear, hear.) That estimate is taken 1852-53; cost £203,000; caused increase of revenue by before the commencement of the insurrection, so that £44,000 ; andin ait cannot be affected by the import o f increased sup- value of £4OO, ."year of drought sa ve d p ro d uce to the plies for the large reinforcements of Eu ro p ean troops which Ido not mention the Jurana nor the Ganges Canals, which have lately been sent to that country. ' Taking next the have been opened about a year and a half, the amount of aggregate exports from India, I find that they were in the profits from which is very great, but lam not in a position five years ending 1842, £63,200,000; in the five years end- now to state it exactly. Taking the small examples, we i n s. 1847, £83,378,000; i n th e f i ve years ending 1852, have one canal in Scinde, th e F or d wak, of eight miles in £91,000,000 ; - and in the fi ve years ending 1857, length, which cost £2,700, andpaid £5,000 i n th e fi rst year. £102,700,000. (Hear.) We have, therefore, these pl a i n A nother paid 58 per cent. of its cost the first year, and a general results, that within the last 20 years the exports third, which cost £3,600, produced £5,000 in the five twelve from India have nearly doubled, and the imports into months. (Hear, hear.) Of course, in quoting the se i n - India have more than doubl e d._ I have not been able to stances, Ido not mean to say that tll works of irrigation ascertain as exactly as I could have wished the compare- will be equally productive. I have no doubt that in these tive rate of increase in the exports and imports of the va- works money may be thrown away if they are not done in rious European nations, but I believe lam not wrong in a proper manner; but these instances show—for they are not saying that the doubling of them in 20 years is a greater necessarily exceptional instances --that if the site s f or suc h be ratio than that of any Eu ropean nation except England works judiciously selected, and the works themselves i and France. (Hear, hear.) Take another indication of the be properly executed by engineers who understnd the commercial progress of I n di a — the tonnage of vessels en- country, there is a possibility ofsome returning s o enormous tered inwards and cleared outwards at the various ports. a profit as not only to cover their own cost but to repay the I find that the aggregate tonnage in the five years ending expenses of others which may be less successful. I feel that 1842 was 10,700,000 e in the five years ending 1847 it lam trespassing upon the patience of the house—(cheers) — was 12,700;000 ; in the five years ending 1852 it was but I cannot avoid in a statement such as lam now making nearly 16,000,000, and in the five years ending 1857 it touching upon a question which is of hardly less interest was just 19,000,000, showing an increase of 19 to 10, or and importance than that of public works, and which in an nearly double in the 20. years.- (Hear, hear.) I take equal degree has a direct effect upon the financial resources another test, not so general and comprehensive in cha- of Indian--I mean the question of the tenure of land in ratter, but selected because it bears upon a ques- India—(hear, hear)—as applied to colonisation by Euro tion on which a great deal is said at present— peens and the occupation of land by natives of India. It the amount of cotton sent from India to England. *ln is no light matter to attempt to deal, however" slightly, with the five years ending 1842, the amount was 352,000,0001 b.; the customs - of more than 130,000,000 of people, those ma in the next five years, 3 58,000,0001 b. ;in the next five toms varying greatly in each presidency, varying years, 494,000,0001 b. ; and in the five years ending 1857, to some extent in each district. All thosewho have any 863,000,0001 b., showing an increase of export in that very acquaintance with Indian affairs are familiar with the great item of cotton about which so many complaints are made— systems of land - tenure which prevail in that country. There lam not complaining o f them, for no doubt their re su lt s i s th e zem i n d ary system in Bengal, under which there is a are very beneficial —of no less than sto 2. Taking a class of large landholders, with occupiers unde r th em ; the more limited and recent period, the annual average system in the N or th-West Provinces, under which the increase of imports in the last five years into the Bengal whole community is responsible to the Government for the Presidency has been £956,000, and of exports £445,000. tax; and the ryotwar system in Madras, where the tax is During the last five years the annual average increase • f collected from the individual landholders. To attempt to imports into the Bombay Presidency has been £959,000; alter any one of these systems, to change one for stnother, of exports £518,000. Taking the town of Calcutta would be, I believe, an impossibility, or at least a fatal mis alone, I find that the imports there were in 1852-3 take. Whether they are good or bad, those systems of £6,387,000, and in 1856-7 £13,959,000. The imports into tenure exist—they are rooted in native habits and ideas, the town of Bombay have, increased from £7,000,000 in and what we have to do, I apprehend, is ,them, these 1852-3 to £11,632,000 in 1856-7. Summing up this part of tenures as they exist, or rather starting from them, to see the case, and taking all the tests together. I find that the what is the utmost amount of security which they admit trade of one capital has more 'than doubled in five years, of. There is one class of lands with which the State has and that of the other increased by one-half. The cotton power to deal, and is not hampered by any arrangements supply has increased at a ratio of 6 to 2, the tonnage and formerly existing. I mean lands which are unoccupied the exports have nearly doubled, and the imports hale more and are claimed by the Indian Government. I believe the than doubled. We are justified in saying, therefore, that house will feel that. it is most important to open these the producing and mercantile interests of India have not lands to European colonisation. (Hear, hear.) The been so so entirely neglected as it has been sometimes the tent of them is more limited, I believe, than is generally custom to assert. (Hear, hear.) From the question of past supposed, but in Assam, in the Sunderbund, in the Neil increase in trade, I come now to consider what is to be done gherries they do exist. Hitherto the custom of the Govern for the development of the future trade of India, and first ment in India has been to give allotments of of all the extent to which an d the system under which pub- upon easy terms for long periods, but those perio these lands lie works are being carri e d on in India, We are often never extended to perpetuity. The great object have of those Europeans who apply for these lands we find to be to obtain the fee simple; in fact, to possess them for ever. (Hear, hear.) They are willing to pay a stun down, but they wish to be free from future interference with their rights. That subject was considered here, and the desire was considered to be;reasonable, and, if the house will allow me, I will read an extract from a despatch whichl will layupon the table, dated December 22 : "In such districts, where large tra c t s o f unreclaimed land are to be found absolutely at the disposal of the State, rules have already been promulgated under which settlers can obtain allotments on very easy conditions and for long terms of years ; but in no case, I apprehend, extending to a grant in perpetuity. In such cases I desire that you will take such steps as may seem to you expedient for the pur.. pose of permitting grantees to commute the annual pay ments stipulated for under the rules (after a specified period of rent-free occupancy) for a fixed sum per acre, to be paid on possession of the grant. In all other respects, and par ticularly in regard to the conditions which provide for a certain proportion of the land to be cleared and brought under cultivation within specified periods, the rules will of course remain unaltered." That is to say, what we propose is that the tenant, after certain improvements are made, may, upon the payment of a - sum of money, become the absolute proprietor of the land. (Hear, hear.) No doubt a new system will require careful watching. There may be difficuties to overcome at first, but I am confident that such a compliance with what is the universal demand of Europeans who desire to settle in India will lead to a great increase in the application of British capital by giving greater permanence to their occu pations. (Hear.) In Bengal there exists a perpetual settle ment by which the landowners are free from all demands except the payment of an annual sum. It such cases it is quite clear that there can be no loss to the revenue of the State if these annual payments are commuted for a sum down, and that sum applied to the extinction of debt. The effect of the commutation will be to give to the landholders possession of the land for ever, free from all future charge. In any arrangement of this kind it will be necessary that existing sub-tenures and rights of all descriptions shall be treated with consideration. We have pointed out, in the despatch froth which I have already, quoted, to the Indian Government, the advantage of this process. We have pointed out the policy of giving a feeling and position of ownership to those who are now, in some sense, tenants of the State. We have indicated the wisdom of giving them material interests in our rule, as by so doing we shall give to the native landowners a direct interest in the permanence of our rule—(hear)—because it is clear that where a commutation of this kind has taken place and a perpetual exemption from future taxation been given to the landholder, he cannot reasonably expect that such immu nity so acquired will be respected by any Government but that with which it has taken place. We have not gone so far as to instruct the Government of India to carry-into effect this process of commutation, but we have indicated that our views were favourable to it, and invited their re specting it. In those parts where the settlement is not perpetual the difficulties in the way of a commutation of this kind are, although perhaps not insuperable, at least much greater. Where the settlement is perpetual the Government has no power to demand increased payments, and so there will be difficulty in commuting the annual payment ; but where the tenure is for 30 years, at the end of which the State has the power to increase the land-tax, we should, by allowing redemption, preclude ourselves from gaining by future improvements. There is one subject that was partially adverted to the other night which deserves mention upon this occasion, because it concerns land revenue—l mean the Enam inquiries going on in India. I need scarcely tell the house what Enam means. The word means bounty, and is a term applied to grants of land, or other exemptions from land-tax, made by our predecessors as acts of favour or rewards for good ser vice. These enams vary much as to the rights they con vey. Some are perpetual and unlimited!; others—the more numerous class—are limited to a family, and sometimes depend upon the performance of certain duties. By these grants a large portion of the land revenue was alienated ; but, besidekthat which was so alienated, there have been many forgeries and frequent disputes of title, and thirty years ago an inquiry was instituted into the subject. At the time this inquiry was aommenced much less was known by Europeans, official or unofficial, of the system of land tenures in India than is now known. The, execution of the work was often intrusted to officers of no great expe rience, and I do not deny that many harsh and many un wise acts were done. (Hear hear.) In Bombay, i n 1843, a commission was appointed for the purpose of bringing these proceedings into something like a regular form, and of expediting them by special machinery. Charges were made last year before a committee of this house affecting the manner in which the objects of that commission had been carried out. Now, lam not about to enter into a vindica tion of the proceedings of the commission, but as those charges have been publicly and extensively made against the members of the commission, and have no doubt made some impression on the public mind, I think it only right to state that Colonel Cowper, who is at th© head of that commission, denies in the most unqualified terms many of the charges brought against him. He says that not merely in matters of opinion, on which every one,'of course, has a right to form an opinion, but that in matte rs o f f ac t th e proceedings of the Bombay Commission have been very greatly misrepresented. (Hear, hear.) I think it only right, as he is a public officer and has no other means of denying the charges, that this statement should be given to the public. (Hear, hear.) At the same time, I wish to guard myself against pronouncing any opinion on the question. The evidence is not yet before me, and until it be it is im possible that I should do more than make the statement which I have now made. I believe it has been said that steps have been recently taken in this country to revise the proceedings of the Bombay Commission. Now, that is not the case. No instructions have been sent out from home upon that subject, and no report has yet reached us. But I believe it is true that steps are now being taken to arrange something in the nature of a compromise between the Go vernment and the holders of these "enams," by which the title to the lands will be confirmed upon the payment of a moderate yearly sum. I have received this, as I wish the house to receive it in an uno upon fficial form ; and, therefore, I cannot speak positively the matter, but I believe the statement to be true. Now I come to the case of Madras. Complaints were made against the late Court of ' Directors with respect to the despatch sent out by them to institute an inquiry in the Presidency of Madras, but I * submit that for that despatch I am as responsible as the late Court of Directors. I stated to the house the other night that on the appointment of Sir Charles Trevelyan as • Governor of 'Madras the Government thought it, right to inform him that the inquirywould be suspended, in order that he might have an opportunity of dealing with the subjects of inquiry as he thought best. I may now mention that I have his authority for saying that when his app o i n t men t took place I offer e d t o hi m, if he thought the inquiry was unjust, either to suspend it or to put an end to it altogether. (Hear, hear.) No man in India, I believe, understands better than Sir C. Trevelyan this complex subject of land tenures. (Hear.) He w as one o f t h e earliest of those who were engaged in inquiring into the subject. I believe the inquiry can be placed in no better hands. Sir C. Trevelyan without hesitation and without delay gave his opinion that the inquiry ought to go on, but he said that care must be taken to guard it from the abuses which have oc curred in former cases. He believes that to put an 'end to it would be a mistake, and that if properly con ducted it would be the means of producing great benefit to the people, and would give additional security to private individuals. (Hear, hear.) I believe that there has been a good deal of misrepresentation of the motives which have led to setting on foot an inquiry of this kiud. The popular notion is that the only object is to increase the revenue by seizing the property of any man who happens to have a flaw in his title. Now, the real fact is that the main object of this inquiry is, not to improve the revenue—not to disturb titles, but, on the contrary, to confirm them, whereby the value of the land will be greatly enhanced. Every land owner, as matters now are, is liable to have his title ques tioned upon succession, and the value of his holding is thereby depreciated. Our object is to give him what in this country would be called a Parliamentary title—to give him a title as to which no question or controversy can hereafter arise. Further, a revenue survey and assessment of the whole :presidency is at this sopment in progress, and until that has been completed we cannot assess, as we know not which land is free from assessment. What are you to do in such a case ? If you postpone the survey you postpone the period at which fixed assessments are levied. You merely increase the difficulty by that postponement. Of course it is easy to say you ought to confirm all the titles of all the lands which are in " enam;" but obviously to confirm indis criminately every title which anybody might claim as being an " enam" would be to hold out a premium to fraud. I have heard of a paper being brought to a resumption officer in the course of his inquiries by a person who represented , that it was a title to land which had been given by the King of Delhi 200 years ago; but on examining that paper it was found that it bole the mark of that very year, and was, in fact, not six months old. (Hear, and laughter.) How many frauds of that kind might be attempted if the suggestion to which I have alluded were adopted. But, if you want to confirm the titles justly and not indiscriminately, you must inquire in some form or another. The real question is what pre cautions should be taken twainst arbitra r yp rocee di ngs. T hat i me a question which ha s been deeply considered, and one of the first objects of the Governor of Madras will be to report upon the best manner of dealing with it. I apprehend that the general principle to be adopted should be this—to re spect absolutely undisturbed succession for a certain period of years. In the next place, not in any case as a rule totally to resume any " enam," even where the title is found to have been originally acquired by fraud, unless th e h o ld er has been a party to that fraud. Of course, where the holder has been a party to that fraud he does not dewye airy con- sideration, qr command any s y m p a th y. Where the T itle is invalid not by any acts of the holder, that fact would pro bably form the natural basis for a compromise between the holder and the Government. On the condition of a mode rate payment he could receive what would be in future a title which could no t b e di s t ur b e d . Lastly, there is a ques. tion which will have to be considered necessarily rather in India than here. lam told that scarcely any of these " enam" tenures are unconditional holdings. The great majority are limited tenures—that is to say, they are held subject to a contingent remainder to the Government in certain cases, usually in case of failure of heirs male. That sort of reversional claim is of very little value to the Go vernment, but at the same time it is a great annoyance and a source of great discontent to the holders. (Hear, hear.) I believe it will be in our power to confer great benefit on the holders of these " enams" if these claims, so comparatively worthless to us, and so annoying to them, can be commuted for money. There is only one other subject on the question of land tenures on which I will touch briefly. The house is possibly aware that great dissatisfaction has been produced in many parts of India by the manner in which estates have been sold in conse quence of decrees of the Civil Court. The process, I believe, is generally this :—A n es t ate i s there divided among all the childten, or is held jointly by all of them. By that process naturally a poorer c l ass ar i ses. T hey tiered im at keeping up app earances ; they become encum ; they bc‘row at an enormous rate of interest ; then comes a suit, and the estate is sold. Tlv old proprietors often in such cases become tenants, and thus occupying a subordinate position among the people, they cause discon tent. It frequently happens that the new owner is a stranger, who does not command the' sympathy of the people. Great disturbances frequently arise on account of the new owner being driven out by the people, who aro attached to their old chiefs. In the late disturbances they gave no help to the Government. Now, strictly speaking, there is nothing in this change of proprietors beyond the or dinary process by which lands pass from those who are poor to those who can buy ; but this cannot be regarded entirely as a question of p o liti ca l economy. There is no doubt that large and rapid changes have been extremely lin_ popular, and there is no doubt that they have weakened the authority of the British Government. We have there fore recommended the Government of India .to consider whether any restriction can be placed on this process. Two methods have been suggested—one, that of limiting the amount for which sales should take place, the other of em powering the persons against whom decrees for sale have been made to appeal from the subordinate to a higher court. This is delicate matter to deal with. Can it be said that on principle it is wrong to permit a transfer from an encum bered proprietor to a wealthy purchaser ? But matters of this kind are not entirely questions of strict political eco nomy ; we are bound to consult also the national feelings THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 15, 1859. PIERS AND HARBOURS. Mr. PAULL moved for leave to bring in a bill to encou rage and facilitate the erection of piers and harbours in Great Britain and Ireland. The hon. gentleman explained that with some alterations and improvements the measure was substantially identical with one he had brought in last session. Lord LOVAINE said he did not intend to offer the bill any objection; but he thought it right to say that the Government proposed to bring in a measure which would probably answer all the objects that the hon. gentleman had in view. Leave was given to bring in the bill, and The house adjourned at a quarter'to nine. As th ma . [ADVERTISEMENT. I -11 olloway's Ointment an d Pill s. — No person can witness an attack of asthma, the gasping of the i nva li d, the wheezing, the restlessness, and the painful appearance of immediate suffocation, without feeling strongly th e necessity of procuring the sufferer as speedy relief as possible. In the worst attacks Holloway's remedies, when properly used, never fail in affording relief; but the ointment, diligently rubbed on the chest and back twice a-day, invariably diminishes the frequency of the paroxysms, and ultimately repels them altogether. One asthmatic, in gratitude, called them" Heaven's gifts." It is wonderful td witness the power possessed by Holloway's medicines in relaxing the tightened chest, and giving com posure to the anxious countenance, and bright erupson to the leaden lips. BITH S. DACRES.—On the 12th inst., at Bath, the wife of Roar. Admiral Dacres, of a daughter. FlTzßov.—On the 9th inst., at Stratton Strawl ess , N or . folk, th e w i fe of Lieut.-Col. H. Fitzßoy, of a daughter. NEWPORT. —On the 12th inst., at Wilton-crescent, the Viscountess Newport, of a daughter. SUTICIE.—O n the 11th inst., at Maines House, Berwick. shire, the Lady Susan Grant Suttie, of a daughter. MARRIAGES CURTIS—IVIAsTER.—On. the 10th inst., at the parish of Almondsbury, Wm. Edmund Curtis, Esq., late of the Royal Dragoons, eldest son of Sir Win. Curtis, Bait, of CCaynha ast mcourt, Lu no dlow, to Ariana E m i ly, daughter of 01. M er, of Kle-park, Gloucestershire. JEFFERSON—SWAIN. —On the 12th inst., at St. Pancras Church, William Jefferson, Esq., of Jarrow, county of Durham, to Eli za b eth Charlotte Janette, daughter of Major W. W. S wain, of Oakley-square, N.W. BINDLEY. DEATHS . — On the 10th inst., at Brighton, at the residence of Sir Thomas B. Leonard, Bart., Charles Bindley, Esq., aged 63. B°ulto ßlEß.•—On the 12th inst., at Buxton Vicarage Nor folk, L ieut.-General James Claud Bourchier, Col. of the 3d Dragoon Guards, aged 79. CALDWELL—On the 11th inst., suddenly, Chas. Andrew C aldwell, Esq., of Boverid ge -p ar k, Cranbourne, Dorset, and 3, Audley-square, London. liicKmAri.—On the 10th inst., Mr. E. Hickman, of 4,York Cottages, Old Brompton, aged 68. MACAULAY.—On the 27th ult., at Toronto, Canada, Geo. Hayter Macaulay, second son of the late Colonel the Hon. J. S. Macaulay. MASON.—At Newport, Isle of Wight, Fanny, the wife of Henry Blackwood Mason, Esq., of the Custom-house, London. • _ - LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county of Middlesex, Tuesday, Febrikary 15,..1859, and habits of the people, though any moderate check on the practice of encumbering estates, with the result of their being sold up, is lik e l y t o be useful. Reverting now to the actual financial position of India, it is impossible to conceal from ourselves the fact that for some:time past a large defi cit has existed. In the ordinary state of things we re ceived funds from India by drawing bills thence for the use of the Home Government in England. From that ex pedient we are now cut off. We cannot draw on the Go vernment of India, as it requires all its revenue for its own necesssities. The Indian Government is, in fact, a borrower ; it h as a five per cent. loan now open and all disbursements, therefore, must be provid e d f or at home. We do not know whether the process may not be reversed, and whether the Indian Government may not draw on us. Indeed, at the end of 1857, the Government of India did draw for 41,000,000, which was shipped from this cou n t r y in bullion. We have no reason to expect that this will recur ; but, from the un certainty of the st a t e o f a ff a i rs, it is right to have a margin above actual requirements. Now, what are the disburse ments in En g l an d on account of India ? The estimate of their amount from May 1, 1859, to April 30, 1860, is ' £6,151,680. It has been the practice of late years always to have in hand a cash balance of £1,000,000; the total re quisition, therefore is £7,151,680. Th e d eta i ls of this sum are these : —For dividends and interest, £1,278,449; pay- ' ments on account of troops and store, postal arrangements, &c., £2,463,671; .for civil service annuities, absentee allow ances, furlough and retired pay, and advances to the Pro- - vident Funds, Civil and Military, £1,439,480; for bills of exchange, remittances, and miscellaneous, £263,400; for charges of home establishment, civil, military, and marine pensions, outfits, and recru i t i ng charges, £704,680. To meet these items of expenditure our assets are, a cash balance on the Ist ofMay, 1859, estimated at £78,961; En chequer-bills and bonds in hand 41,598,900 ; bills of ex change on Indi a , £36,000 ; remittances from India on ac count of supplies through the Lords of the Treasury, £60,000; the bala nce l e f t deficient is £5,377,819. , 'Con- ' sidering that the deficiency is of this amount, and con sidering also the possibility, though I tr us t it i s only a bare , possibility, of our being called on for some time to make. good the requirem en t s o f the Indian Administration, 1. hope the Government will not be considsred unreasonable in asking this house to sanction a loan of £7,000,000. (Hear, hear.) In respect to this amount, we propose to follow the precedent of the loan we raised last year. The ; sum will be raised on bonds or debentures secured on the revenues of India alone. (Hear, hear.) I think that no other than the Indian revenue should be made liable • liable for a loan like this ; and I think als o , th oug h there has been a d e fi c i ency in that revenue for some time past, that we have reason to hope it will not be necessary to ; make an application for another similar loan in this country. (Hear, hear.) On the subject of the Indian re , venue alone being made the security for the loan I ad dressed a despatch to the Government of India on the 19th , of January last, a passage from which I will rea d : "While the extraordiary crisis through which you have passed has fully justified the resort to extraordinary mea sures for raising the requisite funds to meet the emergent military expenses which had suddenly and unexpectedly to be incurred, at a time when the revenue was so suddenly and unexpectedly diminished, I must impress upon your Government the great importance, on the re-settlement of India, of your again, as in time past, depending solely en your local resou rces f or th e ways and means required for the conduct of th e I n di an Government, both here and in India. Every e ff or t s h ould be made so to provide for the wants of India th a t th e l oan for which her Majesty's Go vernment is about to o bt a i n P arl i amentary sanction may be the last requi re d t o b e ra i sed here. " I have now endeavoured--I well know h ow imperfectly--- • (cheers)--I know well also at what l eng th—( c heers) ---to lay before the house what is the actual state of the Indian finances, and what are the principal sources of Indian revenue ; the Indian debt, past and present ; and the actual condition of Indian trade. I have also attempted to indi cate the means by which that trade may hereafter be de veloped and increased. If I have succeeded in conveying to the house the impression that exists in my own mind 2. 1 should say th a t th e present state of India is undoubtedly ono that will require the greatest vigilance and activity on the part of its administration ; but I do not think that the state of affairs gives any cause for despondency. (Hear, hear) I do not deny that the present embarassments are grave; will not say that they appear quite ended ; but they are not greater than an interval of peace and good Government may retrieve; and I think I Ave succeeded in showing that - the permanent burden imposed is really light, compared With the permanent resources which may be developed hereafter. (Hear.) A. great deal has been done, and is still doing, to open India to the en ergy an d enterprise of Europe. The distance between them is lessened, and the interest taken at home in Oriental affairs is increasing. And though it would be too much to ask the house to undertake a con tinuouse and minute supervision of the Indian Administra tion, yet its general supervision will be much greater in degree than it was in former years. That greater attention, I believe, will have a good result ; it will do much to remove existing abuses and to stimulate improvements. I believe the changes effected will impress the minds of Englishmen with the fact that now, more than at any former period, they have the fullest scope for the highest destiny of their race. I believe these changes will call forth more strongly than ever those characteristic qualities of our countrymen, their practical sagacity and administrative energy, which through all the records of our national existence have always controlled fortune and commanded success. The noble lord was loudly cheered as he resumed his seat. As there were some cries of "Move, move," he rose again, and begged, instead of the motion on the paper, to give notice he should to-morrow (this day) move that the house go into committee, when he would submit resolutions to en able the Secretary of State for India to raise a lean for the service of that Government. Sir C. WOOD suggested that the debate be taken in the committee. Sir E. PERRY asked for certain financial returns, and pointed out a considerable discrepancy which:existed between the noble lord's statement of the revenue for the years 1856-7, and the stat emen t o f i t i n the returns already printed. According to the noble lord, the revenue for the year in question was about 33 million pounds odd, and the expenditure was about the same ; whereas according to the papers on the tabl e , th e revenue for that year was only £29,500,000. Lord STANLEY said he had obtained the figures he had quoted from the accounts he found at the India-house. As he had already stated, he had taken the rate of exchange at 2s. the rupee, whereas the papers on the table assumed it to be worth only ls. 101 d. Col. SYKES had no doubt that the noble lord would ' produce in committee the figures on which he had founded • his statement. The discrepancy did not strike him (the gallant colone as amounting to much. (Hear, hear. Mr. KINNA I) RD asked whether the financial difficu lties of India had prevented those reforms in the police from being carried out which had been promised, and which would be of so in Bengal ? much importance t o the well-being of the ryots Lord STANLEY said that a large scheme of police- re form had been sent home, and was under consideration. Mr. V. SMITH urged the impossibility of discussing Indian finance until the house had before it the documents referred to by the noble lord. Mr. H. J. BAILLIE said the discrepancy which had been mentioned had no doubt arisen partly from the differ ence of the value assigned to the rupee, and partly from the fact that the papers already before the house were merely an estimate. The statement which the noble lord had now made might, however, be relied on as perfectly correct. (Cheers.) Lord J. RUSSELL said that it would be both inconveni ent and difficult to proceed with the discussion until the house was in possession 'of the documents which had been alluded to. It might, however, be better to allow the bill to be brought in to-morrow, and to take the debate on the second reading. (Hear, hear.) • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER - had no doubt the discrepancy which had been pointed out would be easily accounted for when they went into the details of the question. He quite agreed with the noble lord that the house ought not to be called upon to come to any sudden decision upon the facts which his noble friend had stated with so much comprehension and lucidity. He should, therefore, propose that the committee should be taken on Friday. It was then resolved that the house should go into com mittee on Friday next. - !`,~ ` <j