The Sun. — London, England, 1858-06-30 00:00:00

1M PERI AL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.—(YESTERDAY.) The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clock. Lord SOMERS took the oaths and his seat. CHURCH RATES. The Bishop of LONDON presented a petition against the total abolition of church rates. Lord CAMPBELL presented a number of petitions in favour of the abolition of church rates. He was in favour of the abolition of church rates without any sub stitute. A number of petitions both for and against church rates were presented by other noble lords and right rev. prelates. MIDDLE CLASS EDUCATION. Lord EBURY presented petitions from Kensington s ad other places, praying. for improvement in middle class education, and also against church rates. THE DIVORCE LAW, The Bishop of OXFORD presented petitions praying for a revision of the divorce law. VICTORIA STATION AND PIMLICO RAILWAY BILL. The Earl of DONOUGHMORE moved that the First Commissioner of Public Works should have liberty to appear by counsel before the select committee on the said bill. It was necessary the First Commissioner should be heard, because if the railway was carried across the river near Chelsea-bridge it would interfere with public property that ought to be protected. Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY said the Chief Commissioner stood in the same position as a private individual in this matter. When the bill was intro duced in the other house, the Chief Commissioner ex pressed his concurrence in the scheme, and it was not until he was precluded by the forms of the other house from interfering that he had !petitioned this house.. 4 He hoped their lordships would not assent to the motion. If the bill was thrown over the session they might not be able agairi to obtain the assent of the interested partieS on such favourable terms. The course now proposed was a most unusual one. The Chief Com missioner would have an opportunity of showing on the third reading of the bill that the place where it was pro. posed to carry the railway across. the Thames would materially injure public property. The Earl of HARDWICKE considered her' Ma jesty's Government were justified in making the motion before the house. Their only desire was to protect the interests of the public. It was a matter of great public interest, and he hoped their lord• ships would agree to it. By adopting the motion they would not be establishing a bad precedent for future legislation under similar circumstances. Lord REDESDALE considered it desirable the Chief Commissioner should be heard before the committee and the points at issue, relative to the mode of carrying the railway across the Thames, and its interfer ence with the Crown lands, fully discussed and considered. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE opposed the mc tion. The opposition to the scheme originated from a change of Ministry, and a desire on the part of the pre sent Chief Commissioner to review the decision of the previous Chief Commissioner on this subject. It was an unusual proceeding, and one that ought not to have emanated from the Government. The Earl of MALMESBURY said that if the First Commissioner was refused a hearing on the bill, the Government would be disposed to recommend that the royal assent should be withheld. The word " veto" was not the proper term to apply to the case. The late First Commissioner had not seen the plans, the present Commissioner had,!and he was of opinion that the ex penditure on Chelsea-bridge would be thrown away if that plan was not modified. The Earl of WICKLOW said that no sufficient rea sons had been shown to induce their lordships to depart from their usual rule. All the circumstances were known to Sir B. Hall, than whom no man in the office of First Commiesioner had conferred greater benefit on the public. (Hear:) The companies promoting this bill had incurred enormous expense ; and if the bill were now defeated, it was probable the public would be per manently deprived of.the advantage which it would afford. Earl GRANVILLE said, if the Government was determined to refuse the consent of the Crown, which must be given to the bill at some stage, there was an end of the question. Lord REDESDALE said he was only anxious to ascertain what was the relation of the Crown to the property in question. Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY said that the late Chief Commissioner had been informed that he might petition, if he thought proper ; but he had not thought it necessary to do so. The case now made against the bill was the most frivolous that could be imagined. Lord REDESDALE said that the land of Battersea park had been bought by a grant of public money, and was vested in some form or other in the Board of Works. Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY was understood to deny thii, and to say that the assent of the Crown was not necessary to the progress of the bill. After a conversation, The LORD CHANCELLOR said it was necessary that a legal opinion should be obtained as to the rights of the Crown„ He had had no previous notice that the question wool l be raised, or be should have been pre pared to ad vise the house. He would therefore suggest an adjournment of the discussion. After a few words trom Lord CILANWORTII, The Earl of DONOUGHMORE consented to an ad journment until Thursday. LEASES AND SALES OF SETTLED ESTATES rT A *4 RNDMENT BILL. Lord CRAN 1i ORlii 14.L.v,0 the ,ccnnti rrrl'n 9 , of this bill. His object was to remedy a defect iu the t.c; passed two years ago with reference to married women residing abroad, and as to other matters of detail. After a f w words from Lord ST. LEONARDS the bill was read a second time. COUNTY N ANAGEMENT BILL. Earl STRADBROKE moved the second reading of this bill, and gave some explanation of its provisions. The bill was read a second time. ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION. This' bill was passed through committee pro forma. INDEPENDENCE OF PARLIAMENT BILL. Lord BROUGHAM, at the request of the Earl of Malmesbury, postponed the second reading of this bill till Monday next. UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGE ESTATES BILL. This bill passed through committee pro forma. CHURCH DISCIPLINE AND THE LAW OF • SEQUESTRATIONS: -- - Lord ST. LEONARDS asked the Archbishop of Can terbury whether he intended to introduce a bill for im proving church discipline and the law of sequestrations, with a view to deter incumbents from getting into debt, and persons from advancing money to them on loan on the credit of their livings, or giving them unreasonable credit, and to compel and enable them to reside and per form their duties although their livings are under se questration 'The Archbishop of CANTERBURY felt greatly obliged to the noble and learned lord for bringing forward this subject, becanste it cave him an opportunity of making a statement which he had for some time been anxious to make. The bench of bishops had long been aware of the evils to which the noble and learned lord had re ferred, and they had taken great pains to devise means for amending the law. They bad hoped to be able to lay a measure on the table of their lordships' house, but they bad been informed that under the present circumstances of the session there would be very little chance of pass ing such a bill. They had, therefore, contented them selves with laying the measure before her Majesty's Go vernment, in the hope that early next session it would be submitted to Parliament, and would receive the sanction of their lordships and of the other house. The right rev. prelates proposed that when a living was sequestrated, and the clergyman had absented hunself,a more adequate stipend should be allowed the curate, and that be should also acquire a right to the parsonage house. (Hear.) Next session be should feel greatly obliged to the noble and learned lord if he would afford his valuable aid with a view to improve the measure as much as possible. The Bishop of LINCOLN defended the right rev. bench from any blame in reference to the cause of se questration. If a clergyman would but reside in his parish, his living might be sequestrated, but in the case supposed, the living was already under sequestration. Lord ST. LEONARDS said his object was to compel residence by monition or by some other means. The Bishop of LlNCOLN—Suppose he will not sumer to the monition Loritn-LEONARDS—Then power should be given to take the living away from him. Lord REDESDALE said, when this qusstkn was mooted before, he made a suggestion which he would now repeat, namely, that if a clergyman bad s 3 conducted himself that he could no longer live in his parish with advantage to his parishioners, his living should be taken away from him altogether. The Bishop of CEIICIIESrER observed that be had on two' occasions prosecuted clergymen and obtained convictions, but he had not been able to procure a severer sentence then suspension for two years in one instance and three years in the other, though in the one case the clergy man was convicted of habitual intemperance and immo rality, and in the other of repeated acts of adultery. Such cases were happily very rare, but when they did occur the bishop should have the power, which he had not now, of deprivation. Their lordships then adjourned. ROUSE OF COMMONS-YESTERDAY. The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o'clock. The Lords' amendment to the following bills were considered and agreed to :—Andover Canal Railway, Dean Forest Turnpike Trust, Oude Railway. The following bills were considered and ordered for third reading :—Great Southern of India Railway Com pany, Tesa Conservancy, Warriegton and Stockport Railway (capital). PETITIONS. Mr. BIGGEi presented petitions from Leicestershire in favour of the legalisation of marriages with a deceased wife's sister. (Many other petitions to the sam e effect from other parts of Use country were presented.) Alderman COPELAND presented petitions from Staffordshire against certain clause s in the Local Go vernment Act proposed by Mr. w hishon. GALWAY FREEMEN DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL. The house went into committee on this bill. On clause Mr. BUTT moved that the chairman do leave the chair,. believing that if they proceeded any further with the bill they would be committing a manifest in justice and plunge themselves in hopeless _contagion. The systemot the franchise of freemen as it existed in Galway was more popular than that which prevailed in any part of the country, for all artizane, artificers, and Seamen residing • there were admitted freemen, with- T TIE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY . EVENEYG, out 3 ny ee7clnson cn the score of religion, or in any other way. The bill proposed to disfranchise the poor freterut n, while they eft the noble lord who ob tained his seat in that house by their votes in quiet / )ossession of it. Another member of that house had op enly declared that he had taken part in those acts of bribery, and yet no notice of that declaration was tak en, while the whole weight of Parliament was brosight down upon those poor freemen who probably' in consequence of want had been induced to accept a bribe. (Hear, hear.) He considered that no arnendme.ets that could be introduced into the bill would make its p rovieions consonant with justice. Mr. CLITE, who has charge of the bill, said the hon and learned. gentleman (Mr. Butt) had stated that if they proceei led with the bill they would be involved in manifest injustice and hopeless corruption. He (Mr. Clive) oonstidered that if they did not proceed they would encourage manifest bribery and corrup tion. With regard to the evidence taken before the committee in reference to the bribery of these men, he considered that it was the duty of the house to take some notice of the report of the committee. Mr. WALPOLE thought it was unjust to proceed against some, while others were left untouched. The Attorney-General for Ireland had given notice of an amendment, dealing with the bribers as well as the bribed. That proposition in itself would lead to very long and very serious discussion, which he thought they would not get through to-day. Another discus sion must be taken on the third reading, and he doubted whether they would be able to get the bill in proper shape into the House of Lords this session. Mr. J.,D. FITZGERALD said that, as systematic corruption and bribery on the part of the freemen of Galway had been proved, the house ought to deal with the question, notwithstanding the advanced period of the session. He did not care which course was adopted, either disfranchising the whole of the freemen, or only disfranchising those who had been proved to have given or received bribes, which was the arnmendment of the Attorney-General for Ireland. Corruption reigned in the whole body of freemen, and Parliament would be trifling with the subject if it shirked the bill now before the house. If this bill were dropped the people would come to the conclusion that election com mittees were all humbug. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BERESFORD HOPE was quite prepared to admit that freemen in various parts of the country had been subject to the gentle violence of the purse, but thought that it was unfair to disfranchise a large body of men in consequence of the malpractices of a few. Mr. AYRTON had no hesitation in saying that this bill proposed the most unhappy plan he had ever witnessed for carrying out a measure of justice. He did not think that, with the prospect of a measure of Parlia mentary Reform for next session, they should waste public time now in a piece of exceptional legislation. Mr. BENTINCK thought they could not proceed with the bill without inflicting a great and glaring in justice. The zeal with which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Clive) pressed on the bill would lead to the supposition that he and his political friends had some ulterior object beyond the punishment of these poor freemen. Mr. KER SEYMER thought that bills founded upon reports of committees should be taken up by the Govern. ment, inasmuch as it wasnlmoet impossible for a private member to carry through such a bill successfully. As far as he was concerned, he should support the bill in its integrity. Mr. CONINGHAM considered that as the freemen of Galway had proved themselves so corrupt, they ought to be disfranchised in a body. Mr. WHITESIDE thought that if proceedings were taken the bribers as well as the bribed should be punished. The bribers corrupted the virtue of these poor fiesmen for their political ends, and were now will ing to destroy them. (Hear, hear.) Mr. COLLINS urged that if the freemen of Galway were not to be punished, St. Albans had been improperly puhished. Mr. WARREN said that certain of the witnesses in this commission had come forward and made a clean breast upon the promise that they should not be visited with any pains or penalties, and now it was proposed to visit them with the very highest Parlia mentary penalties. After some further discussion the committee divided— For Mr. Butt's motion 9O Against it lO7 Majority ---- 17 The motion was consequently lost. On clause 1 being proceeded with, Mr. WHITESIDE moved as an amendment to intro duce the words "the voters who have been proved be fore the said commissioners to have given or taken bribes in the last or previous election." The effect of the amendment was to confine the disfranchisement to those who had been proved to have given or taken bribes. Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD opposed the amendmen'. The bill did not propose to disfranchise individuals, but the class among whim corruption had always pre vailed, and who had from time immemorial corrupted the electors of the borough of Galway. In any measure of this kind the innocent would of course sometimes suffer with the guilty, but that would not be the ease to any great extent in this instance, as the respectable freemen would go upon the Parliamentary roll as house holders and leaseholders. (Hear, hear.) Mr. WALPOLE said that if the committee rejected the amendment, they would be hitting, not those who were corrupting the others, but striking at the poor men who were unable to defend themselves. There were no grounds in morale, policy, or legislation to justify such a course. ' recollected that there were several considerable items of supply yet to be voted. The motion was then agreed to. . SMALL ARMS AND THE RIFLE. Col. SYKES asked the Secretary of State for War whether the experiments for testing the relative values of the Enfield, W hitwortb, Jacobs' and other rifles, had been continued since last session, and whether a report of the results would be laid upon the table before the close of the present session ; whether the iron cup at the bottom of the Enfield rifle ball had been abandoned, and a wcoien cup substituted, and whether the wooden cup might not be dispensed with. Gen. PEEL said there were two committees ap pointed, one called the small arms committee, which had to test the merits of all descriptions of arms, and a separate committee, which had to test the relative merits of the Whitworth and the Enfield rifles. As regarded the latter ccmmittee, a delay arose in consequence of Mr. Whitworth not having furnished the number of rifles that he was asked for last year. With respect to the ammunition, he could assure the hon. and gallant gentleman that there was no question of more import ance with reference to the efficiency of the Enfield rifle, and upon the ammunition would ultimately depend the real value of that rifle. The iron cup to which he al luded had already been done away with, but, at the present moment, it was impossible to do away with the wooden cup. Experiments were now going on, and he had no doubt the result would be that the committee would report in favour of the simple cartridge without cup or plug. There was not the slightest doubt that in some respects the Whitworth rifle was superior to the Enfield, but whether it would be found superior in war he could not say. RETIREMENT OF BISHOPS. Mr. J. S. WORTLEY asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether it was in the contem plation of her Majesty's Government to introduce, during the present or the next session of Parliament, any general measure to facilitate the retirement of bishops disabled by infirmity or old age. Mr. WALPOLE said in the present session it was certainly not the intention of her Majesty's Government to introduce such a bill. As regarded the future, this was one of the most difficult questions that Parliament could have to deal with, and therefore he must decline to give any pledge until he had turned the question over in his mind, and considered whether or not anything could be done in this matter. THE CORPORATION OF LONDON. Mr. LABOUCHERE would be glad if the right hon. gentleman would tell them what course the Government intended to pursue with regard to the bill relating to the Corporation of the City of London. Mr. WALPOLE said the right hon. gentleman would remember that that was not strictly a Government It was a bill introduced by the late Government. He had given his best assistance with the view of putting it into shape, and the other day he tried to get it into committee, but unfortunately the attempt failed. He must now frankly say that in the present state of the session he saw hardly any prospect of the bill passing, though he very much regretted the opposition which was made to the motion for going into committee. Mr. J. S. WORTLEY begged to ask the right hon. gentleman whether he had not since the discussion to which he had referred received from the Common Coun cil a communication, agreed to unanimously, praying that the measure might be proceeded with. Mr. WALPOLE said he had received such a com munication—whether it were unanimous or not he could not tell—but within two hours after receiving that communication he received another from the Livery of London, praying that the bill might not be proceeded with. (Laughter.) AUSTRIA AND THE PORTE. Mr. G. DUFF. a ked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether her Majesty's Government had been informed of, or believed in, the existence of any agreement, written or verbal, between Austria and the Porte, whereby the former Power eri,gaged to give assi4- ance to the latter in case of au outbreak in European Turkey, Mr. S. FITZGERALD said the hon. gentleman had put a very comprehensive, and, as he thong t, a very unprecedented question to him, and he hoped he might, without giving offence, Express a doubt whether any advantage could be derived, either by that house or the country, from putting questions of such a vague and roving character, He could only say, in reply, that no communication of the character described had been re ceived by Government, and the hon. gentleman would pardon him if, in the absence of any facts, he refrained fr fm expressing any belief on the subject. Alderman CUBITT hoped the Secretary of State for the Home Department would "go on with the Loudon Corporation Bill. (Order.) THE MANAGEMENT OF THE CROWN LANDS, Mr. CAIRD rose to call the attention of the house to the expenditure incurred by the Department r f Woods and Forests on the Crown allotment of Hainault, and to move that it is the opinion of this house that the costs of management on the Crown allotment of Hainault, rinse the date of the act under which it was disafforested, have been excessive, and that the management generally has not been satisfactory. The hon, gentleman stated that last year the gross income from the Crown lands was about 445,0001., and the surplus paid over to the Exche quer, after paying expeases, was 234,0001. The late Sec , retary to the Treasury, in consequence of some (reserva tions made last year, submitted Lo the house a return of the entire expenditure on the late forests of Hainault and entire income from timber, and that return appeared to him to form in a small compass a satisfactory exposition of the principles adopted in the management of the Crown estates. Hainault forest contained about 3,000 acres ; it was about 10 miles from London, and it was formerly mush resorted to by the inhabitants of London for re creation. It might be questioned whether any pecuniary f ~, , ,Ip rat4 character could compensate for the Ices of such a meano r. creation, anti f -nch an open space of forest scenery. Previous to elide:we Lee income from the forest was 5001. The matter was taken in hand by the Woods and Foreste, and they had cleared away the timber, dug up the land, and let it for farms, and the gross revenue for 31 years on lease would be 4,240/. per annum. To obtain this, however, 57,000/, had been expended ' • 'and if that sum bad been invested at 5 per cent., and the 5001. previously derived from the forest added to it, it would be found that in a pecuniary point of view no advantage whatever had been derived from the change. He thought a wiser selection of land might have been made, for there were other tracts of land, on which an expenditure, wisely laid oat, would have proved advantageous. ,The act to disafforest Hainault passed in 1351, and in 1852, of the 3,000 acres, 1873 were allotted in property to the Crown. In addition to this the Crown got the timber on the remain ing 1,100 acres, which was worth 21,2721. Some years ago three gentlemen were appointed to inquire into the management of the royal forests, and they reported that they entirely approved of the management, and they de precated the anxiety of the public for an immediate re turn, on the ground that the growing timber was coming to maturity, and would when it reached that point give a good return. They estimated its value at 6001. an acre. Tuese forests had been growing to maturity for the last 800 years, and yet they were told by the gentlemen sent down that if they waited 60 or 80 years longer they would be found in full maturity. The same thing was said to Nelson when he complained of the abort supply of ship timber. They bad nom cut down one of these ancient forests, and they had netted by the timber 261. 13e. par acre. Of the expenditure of 67,000/., 4,6741. had been paid for the expenses of the commission, set tling compensation, police and law, and the hewing of timber ; so that deducting this, the net expenditure on the 1,900 acres allotted to the Crown was 62,9311., or 33/.23.6d.an acre. There was laid out on drainage 18,0001. odd, or 101. an acre, which was an expenditure quite inade quate. It was said that they here limited to do the work on short time, and that the roots of thetrees in the ground afforded obstruction ; hut these works could only be doae cheaper when done on a large scale, and there had been previously expended 15,0001. in grubbing up the roots. Se had no hesitation in sae iug that of the 101. an acre expended for drainage, an outlay of 6/. 10 e an acre would have been sufficient, and therefore on this item there bad been a loss of 6,4001. The farm buildings coat 14,090/., but the buildings were ill finished, and equal accommodation might have been procured for half the money. On public roads there had been expended 5 2001, for 5A miles, and that was a good road, but there were 11 miles of firm road through the fields which had been constructed at an expense of upwards of 1,000/ Mr. W. WILLIAMS considered it most unjust that the innocent should suffer. No doubt these freemen who were innocent were tempted, and having resisted, tilvy were puniohed. He could not affirm such a prim. ciple. Mr. STEUART thought that the bill shou:d not be viewed as an attack on private rights, but one having reference to the public good. He, therefore, could not accede to the proposition which had been made by the Government. Mr. MAGUIRE complained that the chief instru ments in the corruption and debauchment of the poor freemen of Galway were left unpunished by this bill. The corrupt class were not the poor freemen whom it was now proposed to disfranchise, but the gentry of the town of Galway, many of whom were miserable place hunters. and servile wretched partisans. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) If this bill passed, a large number of men who had resisted corruption and remained pure would be punished by disfranchisement, while the great culprits would go free. He asked the committee not to do anything that day which would give Ireland a new grief, or which would convince them that there was one law for the poor. Mr. COLLINS recommended that the freemen of Galway should be disfranchised, and that a resolution should then be passed, affirming that as the seat held in the house for that borough was obtained by corrupt means, it should be declared yam*. Mr. WHITESIDE said the very object of the bill was, by striking off the freemen to put the two seats for Gal way into the hands of the men who had been guilty of corrupting the electors. Lord I:SIINKELLIN defended the Marquis of Clan - ricarde (his father), against certain attacks which had been made against him, in connection with the late election, when the noble lord (Dunkellin) was returned for that borough. He denied that the effect of the bill would be to make Galway a pocket borough. Mr. MELLOR considered that according to PArlia caentary precedent they ought to proceed with this bill, disfranchising a class that bad been proved essentially corrupt. Mr. AYRTON thought the bill in its whole concep tion was wrong, and that the penalties ought to be di rected against those who had set the corruption in mo tion. He then entered at some length upon the course which had been adopted by Lord Clanricarde in influencing the elections for the borough of Galway, and contended that Parliament ought not to punish those who had been corrupted, whne those who bad been guilty of the demoralisation, the cause of all the crime and wrong, were passed over without notice. He objected to the measure altogether, and though he opposed the bill as a whole, he was, under the circum stances, contented to accept the small modicum of justice which the Attorney-General for Ireland proposed. Mr. H. BERKELEY took a similar view of the case and intimated his intention of supporting the amend ment of the Attorney-General for Ireland. Mr. Burr supported the amendment oa the general princip!e that the innocent shou'd no: be punished for the guilty, This road was not more than 10 feet wide, and there was no cutting more than 3 feet deep, and the gravel was ob tained from an adjoining hill. Yet this road, which cost one-Sfth a a modern railway, was so bad that the tenant was obliged to put roots of trees on it to prevent the carte sticking in the mud. For 4001., instead of 1,0001., an infinitely superior road cool 1 have been constructed. Thera w.:s then 8 4001. for repairs of roads and fences, 8001. of which ought to have been included in the first contract. The most startling charge of all was for sur veyor's commission and the superintending of the estate. The (state was 1,900 acres, and the charge was 7,990'. Air. Sergeant DEASY would not object to the amend ment of the Attoroey-GenT:ral it he would allow the amendment, of wl:iela he had given notice, to be engrafted on it, namely--" Provided always that this Act shall not apply to any freeman who has obtained a certificate from the Commissioners appointed under the said recited Act of the ldth year a the reign of her M tjesty." Mr. CLIVE characterised the opposition which had been offered to his bill as a gigantic sham. Mr. MAGUIRE, on the ocher hand, charge.' those who supported the hill with lending their sanction to a party scheme. Ho advised postponement till next session. for 31 years, or 11. 61. per acre per annual. Nor was this all, for the surveyor was also receiver on the estate, and had a commission on the receipts. The next charge was 164/. 16g. ld. for commission on the sale of 1,9901. worth of timber, or 8 per cent.; whilst the next charge, for selling 1,8001. worth of timber, was 5 per cent. The next item was 9181. for valuing the timber on the crown allotment, and it was valued at 36,7901., and sold f 48,369/., or 12,0001. more than the surveyor's estimate. But this was not the only charge en the timber on the Crown land, for the next charge was 1,1821. for selling the timber, so that the whole charge on this timbn was The committee divided, when the number 3 were— For the amendment Against it Majority The amendment was therefore carried. LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL. Mr. WALPOLE said be could not ga on with this bill to-day if it was opposed. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he should oppose every lino of it. (Laughter.) At ten minutes be:ore 4 o'clock the sitting was sus pended. At six o'clock the house resumed. PUBLIC BUSINESS. 2,100/. total charge on the land was nearly 8,000/. for 31 yeard, but he would be bound to find competent men wbo would do it for 5001. a-year He would nom procaed to the second branch of hi 4 motion —the unsatis . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved "that upon Tuesday next, and upon every succeeding Tuesday during the present session, 0-Jverninent orders of the day shall have precedence of notices of motions." The right hon. gentleman said he would not have made this motion unleee he had felt that it was the general - wish cf the house that the business shouid be expedited, factory manner of letting, and the subsequent manage ment of the estate. I%;ere was evidently no plan when the improvement commenced, fur it wag first pro- posed to let the land fur grazing purposes, It WM clear . . that no one would offer much f,r the land for that pur pose, and accordingly the attempt to let the land f )r Ilia: purpose was futi:e. They then determined to drain and and he hardly knew any means by which the efforts Of the Government to facilita!e the progress of public busi ness could be more effectually aided. Having examined the notices of motions remaining on the_ book, it ap improve it, and, having done so, they let part a the land for 31 years on lease, at 5 z. an acre for the first year, 10s. for the second, year, and for the remainder of the term 23. and intere,t upon money laid cut by the Crown in improvements. Tee next year they let the remainderat 9s. the first year, 141. the second year, and 403. for the re mainder of the term. The land let on the second occasion peered to him that there was no question which was likely to be prejudiced by the adoptiun of his motion. Mr. W. PATTEN wished to know whether the right hon. gentleman 'imposed to continue the morning sittings? Mr. Sergeant DEASY would like t) hear what mea sures the Government intended to proceed with, and what messureo they inteuded to abandon. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the Government eerta . nly meant to have recourse to morn ing sittings as much as possible. The Transfer of Land (Ireland) Bill, the India Bill, and the Scotch Universi ties illwere measures with which the Government in tended t o proceed, and he was not aware of any Govern ment bill which was to be given up. It must be wag, too, the worst part of the land, though it fetched nearly double the rent, Immediately after the second letting the tenant, who was a very sagacious man with a large capital, determined to alter the intention which existed when the land was ht to him, and turn stall into a vast market gilder). The comminioLers assented to this, but he did nut know whether when they assented they knew that they undertook a great future responsibility. A market gardener Lad clams for manure and other things at the terminati ,n of the lease which sometimes equalled the value of the fee simple. In addition, if the land was fit for market gardens it was worth twice the rent ; and if it was not fitted for that purpose the commis sioners should not have assented to its being devoted to it. He believed the greater part of it was suited for market gardens. There were similar circumstances connected with the Crown lands, for he found upwards of 9/. an acre was paid for draining purely agricultural land in Sussex. Not only did this übiquitous surveyor manage all these estates in all parts of the country, but be should say that his income for the last year was not less than 10,0001. He could trace payments to the ex`anat of 5,0001., and there were sufficient other transactions shown in the report to lead him to believe that the total sum realised by the surveyor from the Woods and Forests Department was, for last year, not much less than 10,0001. This gentle man, Mr. Clapham, was not a man of great reputation and eminence, and one who had done good service to his country. The commissioners themselves were probably to blame, who, from want of practical knowledge themselves, were obliged to lean for support on practi cal meo. The truth was that the management of the Crown property devolved on an irresponsible agent. They had a double government in this office as well as i❑ Indian matters—there was the commissioners' office and Mr. Clapham's. The civil list of her Majesty was 385,000/. a-year, and if they could increase the income of the Crown lands 10 per cent. they would very nearly balance the civil list, by the income from the Crown lands. The Crown lands were in great part precisely of that description which the great landholders had found so profitable during the last 20 years, and a similar in crease in the value of Crown lauds might have been ob tained by better arrangement. (Hear.) He believed that he bad shown that in the case of Hainault, which was worth little more than the 150th part of the whole royal estates, there was a wasteful expenditure of 21,000/. ; and secondly, that there had been an unwise disposal of the property ; and having shown these two things, he with confidence asked the house to agree to his resolution. Mr. LINDSAY seconded the motion. Mr. G. A. HAMILTON said the resolution which had been proposed embodied a condemnation of the management of the office of Woods and Fore is in refe rence to this particular estate of Hainault, and the hon. member also proposed by that resolution an express con demnation of a gentleman who, he must say, was one of the most efficient and indefatigable officers in her Ma jesty's service. He would state to the house very , shortly the circumstances of the case. The hon. mem ber began by stating that the resolution referred to the forest of Hainault, whipfi comprised 3,000 acres, and then he proceeded to speak of an expenditure as to the Crown allotment of 1,900 acres. The fact was that the forest cf Ilainault comprised an area of 17,500 acres. In 1851 an act was passed appointing commissioners, whose functions were to superintend the letting and improving of the forest. These commissioners took 1,900 acres in full satisfaction of the Crown rights, except those rights belonging to her Majesty as a commoner, including com pensation fsr the timber which was not allotted. Toe act directed that the full expenses of thecornmissioners should be defrayed by the Woods and Forests, who were to be repaid out of the timber. The hon. member spoke of the expenditure on this 1,900 acres, and set it down at 67,000/. ; but the fact was that the whole expenditure of reclamation was 42,0151., the remainder being absorbed by the commissioners and their functions. The 42,0151. made just 211. 15s. au acre, and out of that 11,4151. went for grubbing, which was very heavy in consequence cf the ground being overrun with hornbeam. This came to 61.45. the acre. Before the reclamatio❑ the land pro duced 5001. a-year, but since the reclamation it had been let at 11 55. an acre, so that the expenditure of 11,415/. had produced that rent. The expenditure wae for drain age, 8/. 19e. the acre, which be admitted was heavy. But the ground was full of tangled roots, and the tenant was willing to pay 51. per cant. for the improvements —a tolerable proof that the expense was not excessive. The third expanse was for buildings, for which the tenant paid Cl. per cent., and he had received a letter from the tenant testifying to the success of the buildings and im provement; which he said had transformed this rough laud into a valuable park. With respect to the payment of the surveyors, 5,8881., of which the hon. member complained, a great portion of it was for the disafforest ing, and the amount for reclamation was only 2,8851. It was, in fact, only the ordinary charge of 5 per cent. The property entrusted to the Woods and Forests amounted to 300,0001. a-year, but of that 80,0001. was in fee farm, and 90,000/. was ground rent on long leases, which could not be interfered with. Under all the circumstances he trusted that the house would not agree to emotion which involved a censure on an important branch of the public s r vice. Sir J. SHELLEY eaid that in quoting the tenant's testimony the Under-Secretary should recollect that he had been only two years in the farm, and had lately cime to the country. His experience, t'nerefore, cLi not go for much. He also found fault with the old-fashioned method of draining with wooden pipes. Mr. HAMILTON—What he had said was that they bad to drain through a wood, not with wooden pipes. (A. laugh.) Sir J. SHELLEY thought that the most convenient plan would be to sell these small properties. (Hear.) Sir J. TROLLOPE also thought that the better way would have been to sell the land in small allotments. He also was of opinion that the rate of drainage was heavy, as in general 51. was the maximum rate, to which 11. might be added for clearing away the timber. Mr. J. WILSON said that the land could not be sold, because there was an act of Parliament to the contrary. He contended that the money aid out on Hainault Fo rest had been a most profitable transaction, as for the outlay they had obtained an irireased rental of 3,7001. a year, which was as near as possible 9 per cent., on a lease for 31 years. Great goad was done by bringing these questions before the house, but he trusted the hon. member would not press his motion to a division. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY disputed the calculation of profit, as 5 per cent, must be allowed for interest on ca pital. The report of the commissioners appointed by Par ! !ern -•n t , •ho Teri that every possible abuse was comati.lei in the inauagen. of LA.: C. o :cm irlfic, 1 , 1 , 1 thPrpfnrp it was for the public advantage that questions lose Ulu pi, - sent shonld be brought before the house. He hoped, however, after the discussion that had taken place, the hon. member would not think it necessary to insist on a division. Mr. CAIRD, in reply, reasserted that the whole ex pense he had mentioned applied to the 3,000 acres, but whether 67,0001. or 42,000/. the house must agree that it was a wasteful expenditure. That the drainage was more difficult than usual was contradicted by the fact that it had all been done by the steam plough, and the same charge was made to Government for ordinary ag• ricultural land in Sussex. However, he was satisfied with the discussion he had obtained, and would not press Ilia motion ton division. ENDOWED SCHOOLS (IRELAND.) Mr. KIRK rose to call the attention of the house to the report of the committee of endowed schools in Ire land, and to urge the necessity of prompt remedies being , applied to the evils and abuses which that report dis close. The hon. member entered into a historical retro spect of five large classes of schools in Ireland, referring to the opinions expressed by the commissioners as to the manner in which they had been conducted from the period of their several foundations, and the perversiou irorn their intended use of much of the property left to them. In 1695 the 7th of William 111. was passed, de claring that no person of the Popish religion should teach in any of the schools in Ireland. This act con tinued in force for 86 years, and was repealed at the in stance of no less a person than Howard the philan thropist. After the lapse of time, Sir R. Peel appointed the Clare-street commissioners for educational purposes. In 1818, Mr. Grant, afterwards Lord Glenelg, obtained a grant for these schools, and at the same time bore down many of those barriers which interfered with the freedom of religious instruction in Ireland. The House of Commons, in 1824, issued a commission to consider the subject, whose report was referred to a select corn- mittee, whose ultimate decision formed the basis of the system of national education in Ireland. In 1835 Mr. Wise's committee led to the establishment of the Queen's Colleges. The hon. member then gave a summary of the operation of these five classes of schools, and the value of the lands held by the various societies. For 300 years these schools had ergaged the attention of the Legislature, but they had not thriven owing to the want of proper management. The hon. member then caul pared the amount of annual income derived 4 by these schools with the extant of education provided, showing that the poor had not derived the benefits of which it was intended they should be the r , cieints. The evil lay in the constitution of the various boards of management, the members being virtually self-elected, and by rea son a their other weighty avocations as dignitaries in the' s Church and judges.--a the land, not eligible" for the post which they filled. There was almost a total absence of any system of audit in these schools. Oae of these persons acting in the capa city of auditor declared to the commissioners that he did not know the meaning of the word "assets." (. laugh.) The hon. member then glanced at the national school system in Ireland, contending that it had worked ad mirably, and that it was the only one which could take root in that country. He altogether denied that the schools falling under the appellation of "national" were liable to the epithet of godless. It was not true that the Bible was excluded from these schools. It was simply optional with the parents of children whether they should receive a purely secular or a mixed religious and secular education. He hoped that the national system would be retained in all its integrity, although he deplored the circumstance that an inevitable conse quence of the system was materially to limit the teach ing of the classics or the inculcation of science among the poor cf Ireland. He thought the time for interfe rence on the part of the Government had arrived, although he was prepared himself to suggest a remedy. The course he would recommend would be the appoint ment of a board in Dublin, in whom should be vested the sole czntrol over the property of the e schools, and to whose deliberation no ex-officio del.beration should be eligible. The middle classes of Leland had strong claims upon the Government, fur the old schools open to them had been knocked up by the natiotal system of education. Prompt action was required in the matter, and thercf ,re these endowed echo Ai ought to be made available as soon as possible for the education t.f the middle ult,ses of Ireland. (Hear.) Toe ho , t. member concluded by moving that in the opinion of the house a remedy ought to be applied to the evils pointed out iu the report of the endowed school commissioners of Ire land. L , ird NA AS readily admitted that it was scarcely possible to introduce a question more worthy the atten tion of the house. There could be no doubt that the position of intermediate education in Ireland wa3 in a ;304 unsatLfactory state ; and on that account it was that a commission was appointed by the late Govern ment, in order to invest . gate the subject. The commis. sioners laid before Parliament a most voluminous report, and that report disclosed a moat extraordinary state of things with regard to these endowments. The commis- sioners applied their minds with great energy to the subject, and it was quite certain that they had published JUNE q 59 ) • - a most valuable and interesting report ; at the same 1 less than 400 ware in the county _Onven, where the so time, it was equally true that when they came to the I ciety chiefly flourished. All but ten were in the pro consideration of a remedy for the evils which they de- vines of Ulster. In county Down there was one case of scribed, the commissioners were not so successful, murder, 32 of viol e n ce , ono o f mans l aughter, and one The feet was, th e greatest difficulty surrounded the which might, acco r di ng t o c i rcurnstancee, be murder or I question, in consequence of the variety of opinions manslaughter. He moved for an account of the number of which prevailed with regard to the system of educe,- canes since he left office. From the return of Mr. Maxwell tion to be adopted in thew) schools. The majority he found that within a short time there were 55 cases of a of the commissioners were in favour of the mixed serious character tried at the assizes, of which all but system of education ; but Mr. Stephens, who re- eleven arose from Protestant processions, and three presented the Church of England on the corn- from Catholic processions. Before 1845 there were nu mission, and Mr. Hughes, who represented the views merous cases, showing that law was defied and justice of a largo party of the Roman Catholics in Ireland, defeated where this society was in force. The funds of were entirely opposed to such a principle of educe- the society were applied to defend Orangemen who had cation, and declared its application impossible to the en- been guilty of serious crimes. He would refer to the en dowed schools. It was obviously impossible, therefore, try of the expenditure of the Orange lodges before 1836, that in the short time that remained of the session the for he could not produce that since 1b36, as it - was a Government could make up its mind as to the manner in secret society. (Hear.) He referred to the evidence be which the difficulty ought to be solved. The difficulties fore the committee for cases of money being given to de which beset the question were very great, and it must fend persons charged with murder, in ewe case after con be apparent that the Government could only arrive at a viction. The same thing was done in England ;in one remedy for an evil of such magnitude after the greatest case 2001. having been voted fur the defence of persons consideration. However, he could promise the house charged with serious infraction of the law. In one case that during the recess the subject would occupy a large also, the Scotch committee had given 641. to defend a portion of the time of the Irish Government. Indeed, brother "in trouble"---in trouble because he bad tour his noble friend the Lord-Lieutenant bad already given dered a policeman. (Oh, oh.) Mr. Bridge, a member of much of his attention to the question, and had perused an Orange lodge, refused to give a character to a man the whole of the voluminous report of the commissioners because he was a bad character. He was subsequently Mr. GREER bad hoped for a more explicit statement convicted of murder, and Mr. Bridge was so persecuted of the intentions of the present Government ;he thought for not giving him a character, that he was obliged to they ought to have made up their minds as to the prin- leave the neighbourhood in which he resided. ciple of the measure which they intended to introduce I The CETANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER--Date? next year. He must declare the country was greatly Mr. FITZGERALD-1827. indebted to the honourable member for Newry for in- The Chancellor laughed. (Immense cheering and troducing this subject to the notice of the house, laughter from the Ministerial side.) Mr. GROGAN was also of opinion that the hon. Mr. FITZGERALD continued—He did not see what gentleman had done good service in calling attention to there was to excite the laughter of the leader of that house the subject ; and he was happy to hear that the serious in the fact that these things occurred in 1827--(bear)—or consideration of the Government was to be directed to that the mention of the circumstance was absurd because grappling with it ; f or a more i mportant question could l it occurred , in 1837. He was confining himself to the not occupy the att en ti on o f any G overnment. At the question of criminal- justic e , b ecause th e question he was same time he must th us ear l y enter hi s protest against bringing forward rel a t e d on l y to the administration of any justice. He alleged that though formally die any principle of education being applied to these schools solved in 183 G, the society had existed up to this day. which was based upon the exclusion of the Bible.. Under a travelling warrant, grnted in 1836, the societ Mr. LEFROY was re j o i ce d to h ear t h e announcement had been established in Canada, a and he produced a C a n a d a y made by his noble friend, that the report of the commis- paper of the present year, in which there was a petition sioners was to occupy the attention of the Govern men t against the admission of members of the Orange body to during the recess. At the same time he deeply regretted the Legislature and against promoting secret societies. The that the honourable member for Newry (Mr. Kirk) had petition was not received from want of form. In that deemed it his duty t o ma k e an a t tac k upon the system petition it was said th a t un l ess t h e i r prayer was granted, of education adopted by the Church Education Society. and p tra i t i t o t i i i earl s b would b h e a .. dtiven to arms in self-defence, Mr. DOBBS thought that the people of the north of hers of a secret . society tout; had trocopm4Tera TccoknetTeltinheenthoooiuln-- Ireland were especially indebted to the hon. member nocent and acquitting the guilty. The Orangemen had as for Newry, for bringing forward the question. He sembled in Canada in large numbers under that same Ogle should give his most cordial support to the motion. Gowan, who received the warrant in 1836 to establish the Mr. HASSARD said that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Orange lodge there, and who was a clergyman of very bad Letroy), in showing the tffscte of the national school , , character indeed. He had received a communication to the bad stated that they would destroy the middle schools, effect that Mr. Cecil Moore was not a member, but he found and that the Queen's Colleges would be the only places his name in the report of Enniskillen, as " A.D.G.5.," which he road as " A ss i s t an t-D eputy Grand Secretary, " in which educatio n f or the middle classes could b e o b• b m al r ie u ved if th ,t a f t oo w re as - ( t ( r h, correct o)t mweaasn no o nta t n te d r his very tained. He believed the middle schools of Ireland were androt he e r very efficient, and one, of which he had some know. derision. In 1855 they were found in other offices, and ledge, that of Waterford, was very ably conducted by a again in 1353. In 1857 Mr. C. Moore appeared as " G. 5.," clergyman of the Church of England, but the religious which he interpreted as " Grand Secretary." He had not views of the people were not interfered with. a word to say against Mr. Moore personally. On the con- Mr. KIRK admitted that in some of the large towns trary, he believed him, from report, to bo fully qualified, there were good schools of the class epoken of, and it and the only objection to him was that he was a member was only because he did not wish to waste the tints of of the society. He di i not wish to do him any injury. The the house that h e dil no t enumerate them, office of ses s io na l C rown prosecutor was not one with a largo sal ar y, b u t th e d u ti es were of great importance, and Tee motion was then w ithd rawn. though the ses s i ons cou ld not d ea l w i th cases of a cap i tal ORANGE LODGES, IRELAND. nature, yet, from the speedy and cheap administration of Mt. J. D. FITZGERALD rose to call attention to justice, the cases were becoming more important, and the the Address of the House of Commons to his late Ma- Crown prosecutor had the whole conduct of prosecutiners jesty King William IV., of the 24th day of February, end the power of the Attorney-General in excluding jury -1836, and his Majesty's gracious answer thereto, and to men. He din not believe that Mr. Moore would even for the recent appointment of Mr. Cecil Moore, grand se- his society violate his duty, but it would create well• founded jeal o usy. M r . Fit zgera ld asked whether Lord C. cretary of the Ty rone O range. L o d ge, to the office of sessional Crown prosecutor of the county of Tyrone, and dHuaemteidltotno theira f t i h ra e n s o o e mL a L ie o t rd C d . ee H or a a m te i d lto w n it w b h e o m 7 l s em in s: to move "That in the opinion of this house the appoint- and chaired througlithe town y in 1835? He quoted Lord went to offices connected with the administration of the Caledon's decimation that Lord Claude Hamilton had, by criminal law of members of the Orange Confederation, his share in the Orange proceedinge given him great or of any other political Confederation founded on trouble. At that time a police-officer was shot at, and principles of religious exclusion, inculcating secrecy a gentleman holding an important office found a threat en its members, and acting by means of delegates ening notice in his prayer-book, and was fired at, a few or representatives, and of affiliated branches, tends days after. The appointment was defended on the to create well-founded jealousy and suspicion highly ground that Mr. Moore had ceased to be a member of the society, and that a memorial in his favour had been signed detrimental to the ends of ju.tice, and ought to be die .ceiantohnoglisot others bisho by alß,hoermeainnCdatheeonlicapnriaesssterartldrna that couraged." Be said tho motion was one of great prac- final importance, affecting the welfare of the country, (Mr. Fitzgeral4 when in office, had given an appointment and he regretted that he should have to bring it on at so to a person who had been one of the leading rebels in late an hour, and to abridge the observations he should 1848, but that was wholly untrue. (Hear, hear.) He knew have to make. In 1835 and 1836 the subject occupied that the course he was taking was likely to expose him to the attention of the house, when a select committee was enmity, especially in Ireland, but he could not help that. appointed, the results of which showed that a state of He could only express his feelings in the words of the too things existed highly dangerous to the community. The tion which he there repeated. He quoted a declaration of committee proved that there existed a c wifederation the Downshire Protestant, an organ of the Orange lodges, bound by secret t es t s , num ering in Ireland 225,000, i n that if Lord D er by' s G overnment did not support the E island 14,500, and in Scotland an unascertained society t they . would i not be supported by the Protesta i nt ..con number, and from the wilds of Car.ada to the Straits of e s i a i o.e ue fr n o c m ies t i ia t e l i r . e a Ireland. Ile tii e t h u e , n ra m pf s o s c i e o , n d e e r d s otno traßaellLass; Malacca there existed this Orange confederation all riots ; and he concluded p amidst loud applause from the bound by the .will of one man, the grand master, the Opposition. object of which was political, controlling the Parliament , 'The O'DONOGHOE seconded the resolution. and the executive, and that under the cloak of religion o Mr. WHITESIDE said that great questir ns awaited. the —that it perverted the course oft US tiOS — intruded itself decision of the house, und the hon. gentleman had wasted on the bench, and divided the people into two great re- his time, not in endeavouring to compose dissensions, but i ligious parties, which r en d ere d ama l gamat i on i mpossible. in reviving forgotten calum n y an d res t or i ng di sagreea bl e In 1836 it was pointed out that it always embraced subjects by by stray t paragraphstbn facts, n t e h tt o t i c i p h ap h e i r s s it o n i I r e i x e e aesoeg its members men of high character and honour, P was U spicy cp a o n r d e s s a u r p ca p s o tic ' . (flea o r.) What had g Government eguc but eurertaining designs at which every one must shod- done ? What were th e f ac t s ? That a.n honest, competent, house at any length t o w h a t t oo k der. He did not int en d ca lli ng the attention of the and respectable m an h a d b een appo i nte d t o a p l ace o f 1401 . place on that occa- a -year, for which he was admitted to bo competent. He sion, but it had been said that at that time it was an did not deny that there were abuses of patronage. Ho had illegal body, but that under its new organisatiou it was seen men in office who deserved to be hanged. (Laughter.) on a different footing—that now it was perfectly legal. He had known merlon the Treasury Bench who wore a dis- When the question was formerly under the consideration honour t o thei r country, who would corrupt any assembly, of the house, the Roble lord the present member for the and would have destroyed the liberties of their native land. city of London reins, keel that these societies invariably d lauehter ) Wa h er ( t ) u r la am i l la i r teri t t e t r e'n " tlt a n e o nam o e f , h r is en a e s w w e niation and produced a perpetual source of quarrelling and insub had desc y ribel their services to the country. 'Many painful: ordination, and that they generated party feelings stories might be told of the history of either country ; but which were most disastrous to the welfare of the it was not the duty of a patriot to revive painful associa people, and obstructive of the pure stream of us- tions. The attack was made on the Orange Association, as if tice. He should attempt to show that if the the Government had taken the Orange Association under Orange Confederacy was illegal and pernicious, its wing. There had been an inquiry in le3o, and it was di. in 1836, it had not hest that character now, and that the rented that the Orange Society ought to cease, as the occa remerke which were made in reference to it then were sion for it was at an end. Everyone spoke moderately, and Mr. O'Connell said the time was come when party strife 1-i• , to ie., I eee l t , i', :., t'i-' nr•Pent t'he". That what of wee] LL. a, 1 ,-,1.1 t,,, "t, , bn p o d . Th e resolut i ons were , levelled ag a inst Sir R. Peel, in 1b35, termed ti;wger0u.i.t0r.,,C...,..... .s ct c ! ' c.,,EdL, :1‘,., :Alla At i4,1k1 th tk . 11C t'.! , i' . l - ! , , ,- 1 so still, and thou g h h e did no t as k th at t h ey s h ou l d be s it b societies was a n evidence ' of something wrong in tee ouay put down by force of la w , he should press up o n the politic. But he was a inded man who, in cnsi house that her Majesty' s G overnment s h ou ld not give tiering questions respecting such narrow-m a society, did not i eflec o t on any encouragement to their members. He had stated the history of the country and the time when it flourished, in his resolution that be would call attention to the and on the circumstances which brought it originally into address of the house to King William IV., of Fab. 24, existence. These men were then called upon to dissolve, 1830, and he should ask the house to pass a resoluti on and did so ; now, for the first time, hypocrisy had been in accordance with the pledge which was given in 1830 charged against them. Their books were scattered, and he was at a loss to know how the book the i right hon. gentle confederation should be abolished in Great Britain and t i ne rt h h a o d i quoted from had fa g i o l t ed i nttoo state iis why possession. the society been the colonies—a pledge which he might remark had never had been L re g o e rgearised, a circumstance he (Mr. Whiteside) bean carried out. That was the case he could prove by very much regretted. The society being at an end, Mr. an Orange warrant leaned on the 19,.1i of May in Louth, O'Connell predicted halcyon days for Ireland, and the Ireland, some months after the pledg e given by the Duke Protestants of Ireland were ready to believe in it, but the of Cumberland that there should be a dissolution of the true history of the country for the eight subsequent years confederation, which had been condemned by the house were to be found in the statute-book. The year befoul as dangerous to the welfare of the country. (Heal%) H e the reorganisation of the society Ireland was in a lawless held in his band an extraordinary document, namely, the state, and the crime of Ireland had doubled in enormity records of the Orange lod g e o f D onega l, conta i n i ng en- that of the previ o u s y ear . With regar d t o t h e po li t i cal tries from 1813 to 1823. This contained an entry, which chalgeile woul o d r not charge h 9. O'Co i n n r ,, iel m l with an be f r r p o o m cr i b sy i . s , stated that in consequence of a statute in opposition to countrymen dissimulation,by adopting op a e co o urs g e ai ll disapproved of, but illegal oaths, this society was abolished ; but eight days he was inclined to believe that Mr. O'Connell intended by afterwards it was reorganised, all the change being that his course of action to regenerate his country. It was a that part of the rules requiring the taking of an oath was manly policy, but how did he carry it out? Why, by struck out. The committee of 1835, appointed to inquire agitation in order to separate England from Ireland ; and into the lodges in Ireland, did not report, but pridted to frustrate his scheme this society was reorganised for the their evidence. The committee appointed for England support of the Protestant religion, the upholding of the did make' a valuable report, to which he should have monarchy, maintaining the Union, and tile British power in Ireland. (Hoar.) At th a t ti me th e peop l e o f I reland alluded, had it not been for the lateness of th e hour. He might say, however, that thi s report cont a i ne d th e mos t believed Mr. O'C onne ll i n t en d e d t o e ff ect w h at ho wag alarming statements as to the re s ult of th e O range asso - gested; but he need no t i n f orm th e h ouse h ow much the people of Ireland were di sap p o i n t e d i n t h e result. The ciations, and when it was known that simil ar associa- organisation of the society took place at a time that justi tions existed now, be thought too much importance fled it. Clubs at that time wore to be formed of ZOO men could not be directed to the subject. [The hon. and each, and each man was to be armed ; and when 300,000 learned gentleman read extracts from the report, with a men were so enrolled they were to act ; and it was to meet view to show the religious animosities which it was the that organisation that the Orange societies were reorga tendency of the confederation to keep up.] In that re- flinch (Hear.) At the time of the reorganisation, how port ho contended there wee a full justification for every ever, no oath, test, or secrecy was observed. The meetings charge which he should allege against th e con f e d erat i on , were open to the poli ce , an d th e on l y o bj ect t h o Mi nisters had was to preserve or d er an d th e supremacy o f t h e Crown In 1836 a regulation was put in force in accordance with i and tho Protestant religion in that country. The late Go which every man who was appointed a stipeudary magic- verninent, however, sanctioned its reorganisatirn by allow trate was compelled to take an oath, one part of which ing 600/. worth of guns being received by the members to stated that during the time he held offica he would not defend the Union, the monarchy, and the Protestant reli belong to any secret political society. That remained gion against the contemplated attack of that day. (Hear.) the law up to the present time, and he now sought to It was such motions as these that inflamed resentments apply it to those who had the administration of the that ought to be forgotten in Ireland, and he denied that higher departments of criminal justice. It will be re- the province of Ulster was in the state it had been de membered that last year there wer e ser i ous r i ots i n picted by the right hon. ge n tl eman . Th era h a d b een r i ots in Belfast, but they h a d b een put down successfully, and Belfast, in reference to which a commi ss i on o f i nqu i ry was sent out. Before there commissi oners L or d B ett i s - submit was secure and was as hi g h i n va l ue th ere as i n n other of Irelan. as ere such a rievance kitten appeared for examination, a n d h o th en produced ed to part the House d of C W ommons th ever as the one g that had the records of the society, remarking that the society been submitted by the right hon. gentleman, viz , that of bad now nothipg to conceal. He (Ur. Fitzg er ald) h a d his (Mr. Whiteside) having appointed this gentlem an t o compared the rules of 1824, 1836, 1845, and he defied the office of sessional Crown prosecutor, on the recommen any one to prove that there was any essential difference dation of men of position in the country, as a man of most between them. (Hear, hear.) Hr found in the recital respectable character, and fully qualified for the discharge of the objects of the institution that it was founded for of the duties ; and when the late Crown Solicitor was in the establishment of her M a jesty' s success i on, t h e d e - disposed, he w as o bli ge d to find a substitute, and th e su b. fence of their property, and the defence of the religion stitute, tt approved of by the right hon. gentleman the l a t e of the Reformation, as well as to su the glorious Ao rney-Geueral for Ir e land (Mr. Fitzgerald), was th en pp ort Mr. Cecil Moore. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman memory of King William, and the peace and prosperity referred to a memorial he had received from the deputy of the country. But when they said this they violated lieutenants, magistrates, gentry, and clergy of Tyrone, all their principles, for the glorious memory of King testifying their hearty approval of the selection of Mr. Williatn they might all now join in perpetuating. (Loud Moore for the office of sessional Crown prosecutor. chews.) But this Orange association had done every- Amongst the memorialists were four Roman Catholic thing they could to violate the principles of King priests, and many dissenting persons. (Hear.) And of William, and bad ever proved themselves the ob- nineteen or twenty attorneys in the county, ssixteen or seventeen of them had testifi e d t o th e excellency cf the structors of national lib er ty. (Oh, o h , an d h ear, h ear ) h But these resolutions were hy pocr iti ca l pre t ences. If Ye p ci o lMoore held officatment. (Hear, hear,) hear.) He was not aware M r , in the Orange Association ahem h e hon. gentlemen had an y d ou bt a b out t hi s, if th ey h a d appointed him to office. He ha I held it during the time any doubt that the object of the association was to in- tho late Ministry were in office, but he hail since resigned butt those who differed from them, he would - hand them it, and therefore the resolution proposed to affirm what the last song bOok of the association. (Laughter and did not exist, and he (Mr. Whiteside) was informed that loud cries of "Sing, sing." A voice : "He does sing ; for a year and a half Mr. C. Moore had not join e d i n he intones.') The right hon. gentleman then read the friendly mectieg with the Orangemen in the county rules and prayers of • the association, in the latter of in which he lived. (Hear, Lunt was correct an d proper. He and hear.) Th a t would ,be which they thanked God for p ro t ec ti ng th e country from an illiberal, intolerant, of the ,mistaken Government Romish treachery. Th ese reso l u ti ons rem i n d e d hi m o f that did not availitself services of e ver y those of the Massachuvett Purit an s, w hi c h were :—" 1 . private and public cw - i man, whatever were his politic a l op i nions, if his The earth is the Lord' s an d th e f u l ness th ereo f . 2 . The never inquired into the political opinions of his subordi- Lord bath given the earth as an inheritance to his saints. nates, and only interfered in reference to the qualifications 3. We are his saints." (Laughter.) That the Orange and anew; of the man for the office he aspired to fill. c inferieraey was a secret society was Flan ) from the fact (Hear, bear.) He bad never complained of the appoint that up to recent dates members had been iguominioutly moots of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Fitz gera ld) of expelled far divulging the secrets of the order. What Roman C a th o li cs to public offices, but one Protestant the secrets of the order wero he protested he could not official that he (Mr. Whitesid e ) had appointed had been understand, although he did not believe the absurdity made the sub j o e;t th o e f ivimoprietachrnent. (Cheers.) This motion I:tepeencief,sorloptteernsecuiNtifornfajneilipoorarc that there were no secrets to be divulged. There were tics as a thatrevival ought to have ' also expulsions for marrying Papists, and of these cases when he beard of the motion, tendered his . resignation, bu e i he found 40 or 50 on the records before him. (Cries of he (Mr. Whiteside) declined to accept it, and he was sure "Oh, oh," and groans.) He pr o ceed e d to quote in- the house would 'support him in that determination. stances cif members of the Orang e Lod ge b e i ng e xcluded (Hear, hear.) It was neither wise, politic, nor just to for divulging secrets. I t h a d b een laid d awn t h a t no bring forward such a motion as this, and on such grounds, one could be in the Queen's service, not even as a com• and ire expressed a hope that before long he should see the mob soldier in the army, who belonged to the society ; people of Ireland a unites, happy, contented, and free and he defied any one to show the difference between people, casting from thent the rag of ancient prejudice, and the old Orange institution and the newly organised so- pressing on with that high emulation which became a cisty. He called on the house to discourage such so- c w ‘ tse , peful, and a happy p eo pl e . (Ch eers, and (fries of cieties ; for, much as Orangemen might lore their Divide. ) society or their country, they loved place better. His to make a pers ona l explanat i on as to Mr. FITZGERALD, amid loud cries of "Divide," rose attention was directed last year to this association, and he found that in six ears there were no less than 433 the session a l C rown proeeeutor, which ho stated had not cases of offences arising made him. If the ght hon. gentleman had y g from Orange processions, ancino 1 b etateth to ili by lli that Mr. . Cecil ri Moore bwl coated to In a member of the confederation, he wculd not have made this motion. (Hoer, hear, and oh, oh.) Mr. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE said a few words in explanation of the appointment of the sessional Crown prosecutor. Lord PALMERSTON could not allow the debate to close without expressing the pain he felt at this apparent revival of animosities connected with a state of things which they had hoped had altogether ceased, or was fast The right hon. and learned dying out. (Hear, h ear.) gentleman had stated that Mr. Cecil - Moore had resigned the prominent office he formerly held in the association in question, end, if he understood him correctly, they might hope that the influence of the Government would be used to induce those who were connected with such associations to consider, with them, that the time was past when they were necessity or could bo justified. (Hear.) If the house should be of opinion that from that intimation of the right hon. and learned gentleman there was a prospect that those ancient feuds and differences which in times pa s t had caused so much disturbance and injury, and had so mate rially interfered with the progress and prosperity of Ire land, would, so far as the influence of the Government was concerned, be discouraged and put an end to, he hoped that no division would be taken upon the resolution brought forward by his right hon. and learned friend— (oh, oh, and cheere)—or that they would, by recording what might be regarded as a triumph by the one party or the other, do anything that might by poseibility encourage those differences or interfere with that harmony which it was to be coped was now in course of being established. (Cries of " withdraw, ' and "divide.") Lord J. RUSSELL considered that there was more in volved in the discussion than the mere personal question. Having heard the statement of the right hon. and learned gentleman as to the opinion of Protestants and Roman Catholics in favour of Mr. C. Moore's fitness for the office he thought he had done right in not acsepting that gentle. man's resignation. With regard to what had occurred in 1836—(0h, oh)--he might mention that there had been in the previous year an inquiry which justified the house in the strong proceeding it then took. He (Lord J. Russell) endeavoured to interpose, and was fortunate enough to induce Lord Stanley (the present Earl of Derby), the late Sir R.lPeel, and the late Mr. O'Connell, to unite in a gene ral resolution condemning secret societies generally—to which Mr. O'Connell agreed, on condition that Orange societies shou:d be included. The committee no doubt thought'all such societies were most objectionable, as the one necessarily encouraged the prcmotion of another of an opposite kind to counteract its influence, and thus the difficulties of Government were increased. He would usk the right hon. gentleman the Home Secretary whether he thought it desirable now to overturn and repudiate that resolution of 1836 ? Was the Government or the house prepared to say that, whether as regarded Roman Catho lic. or Pwtestants, it was desirable to encourage them by appointing to office men who wore connected with exclu sive religious societies, which had branch societies affiliated with them in different parts of the country? And yet if they passed a simple negative of this motion such would be the effect. (Hear.) He would not say how they might es cape that difficulty, but it appeared to him that it would be more advisable if they wereto adopt some plan by which a decision might be avoided. (Rear, and oh.) It was the interest of every government that such societies should not exist in that, though they might have been justified in the first instance— though they might have been called into life by some emergency, in which, under the expectation of re bellion, loyal men united to defend the Crown at a period of danger when that necessity had passed over it was most inadvisable that they should be any longer continued in a state of activity. (Hear) It was, on the contrary desirable that these animosities which had so long prevailed in Ire-. lend should be allowed gradually and permanently to sub side, and he could not but think that a decision on this motion, whatever way it might be, would tend to retard that result and have a most injurious effect. The right hon. and learned gentleman, as he understood, expressed his wish that such societies should no longer exist, but he did not understand him to say that it would be the policy of the government of which he was a member to discourage them by all the means in their, power. The CHANCELLOR o f the EXCHEQUER said that it was the duty of every government to discourage political societies in Ireland whether open or secret, and he thought the best mode of cerrying out that policy was by discourag iug such motions as the present. (Cheers.) In the days when he first came into Parliament the chief staple of poli tical controversy was motions of this kind, and he hoped that such a course had been discontinued, but he had been disappointed. When the noblelord, after the answer of his right hon. friend the Attorney-General for Ireland, rose ins spirit of admonition and warning, and called on his right hon. friend the Secretary of State to declare whether it was the policy of the Government to act in contravention of the resolution which was come to in 1836, he must be 4. lowed to say that nothing had been stated by the hon. gentleman who had brought forward the motion, or by his right hon. friend which justified the opinion expressed by the noble lord. The right hon, gentleman who brought forward the motion had entirely failed in his case—(loud cheers)—and he might not to have sought to revive such unhappy can es of dissei ion without having duly inquired into the circumstances of the case; and he (Mr. Disraeli) trusted that the manner in which the remarks of the right hon. gentleman had been received, and the observa tions of his hon. friend the Attorney-General for Ireland, in which he entirely agreed, could offer no encouragement to such motions for the future. He trusted that the policy of the Government towards Ireland would be one entirely adapted to the changed circumstances of that country, anti when motions wore brought forward, and allusions made such as they had listened to that night, which were adapted to circumstances very different to those now happily existing in Ireland, and which re ferred to habits and customs now fortunately obsolete, h. could only say, on the part of the Government, that their course would be adapted to the newer and happier circum stances of the sister kingdom, and that their policy would be—what he hoped would always be the policy of those who sat on those benches just, generous, and conciliatory, not acknowledging any differences of creed or of party save those which could be constitutionally expressed; and the tenor of their policy would not be such as to justify tho recognition cf such motions as this. He did not know what were the intentions of the right hon. gentleman : perhaps he would not call on the house to divide ; buthe (Mr. Disraeli) could not consent to the withdrawal of the motion. (Rear.) Mr. ROEBUCK, who was met with loud cries of " Divide," and " Question," raid that he thought the motion was intended to be confined to one part of it • and if so, he should h ave vo t e d f or i t. B ut it seemed that ft was meant as a distinct censure on a particular act. Because ho was sure from the form and wording of it, that it was meant to pass a direct censure on the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Whiteside), he could not vote for it—(hear, hear) — for the st:,tement of the right hon. gentleman was a com plete vindication of himself—(loud cheers) -and, believ i.,,„; that, ho rnt I-r ho motion. (fo n d c h eers. ) ' Mr. J. D. FITZGERA.LD who was met with loud cries of " Spoke," " Divide," and "Q ues ti on, " sa id t h at after what had fallen from the noble lord, he felt that he ought not to press the motion to a division. (Cheers.) The motion was then put and negatived. (Tremendous cheering.) NAVIGATION (IRELAND). Mr. G. A. HAMILTON obtained leave to bring in a bill to extend the time for making advances towards naviga tion in Ireland, under the provisions of an act of the 19th and 20th Vic., eht.p. C. 2. CORRUPT PRACICES AT ELECTIONS. Mr. WALPOLE obtained leave to bring in a bill to continue and amend the Corrupt Practices Prevention Act, 1854. It was intended to continue the present act for a year and till the end of next session. It also amended the act in reference to the travelling expenses of electors and the expenses of election auditors. GAME LAW (IRELAND) BILL. The order for the second reading of this bill was dis charged. FUNDED DEBT BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. The other orders of the day were postponed, and the house adjourned at twenty minutes to two. Dour try filarkets. LIVERPOOL, JUNE 29. The market waa rather better to-day than on Friday, and a good demand prevailed for flour. LEEDS, JUNE 29. The supply of wheat was moderato to-clay, and we had scarcely any arrivals from the coast during the last few days. Wheat in more active demo:lid, and all descriptions have improved in value is per qr. over the rates of last Friday. Barley nominal. Beans firm. Little passing in other articles. • Averages for the week : Wheat, 42s 10:d Oats, 26s 6d Peas, 41e oa. Barley, 30s 10d Beans, 41e 100 f Rye, 338 od. NORWICH CATTLE —JUNE 26. There was a largo show of Scots, short-horns and Irish exhibited to-day. Trade inactiv e . , _ _ Fat beasts, Gs Gd to 7s 6d ; prime, 8s Od per stone; being about same as last week. Sheep, 35s to 408 per head, and good store pigs, 15s to 20 3 . F a t pork, 6s to 6s 6d per stone of 141b3; tract.) dull. PIIOVISION MARKET. Beef, per lb 6.'_',(l. to 7d j Butter, p pt. is 4d to is 5d Mutton . , per lb 6d t o 7d I Eggs, per 18, Os 0,1 to is Od Lamb, do., Os 9d to Oa 10d I Hens, p pair Os Od to Os OJ Veal, per lb ... 6Ad to Os Id 1 Chickens,do.4s Od t o 6 o Od Pork, per 1b...0 s 50 to 6d Ducks, do., 4s 6d. to 6o 61 Salmon, per lb .... ..... O s Od Ducklings, 2s Od to 2s 61 i arouse, per brace......o s t o Os Turkeys, each Os Od to Oi 01 Tallow, p stone, Os to --s 01 Potatoes, per pt., ....3d to 5d The Brazilian Government gunboats Araguary, Araguay, Imlay, and Iguateney, from London, arrived at Plymouth ou Monday afternoon en route for Lisbon and Rio Jan iero. BIRTHS. BRopßicic —On the 26th inst., at 23, Chester-square, the wife of William 13rothick, Esq., oU a daughter. GALF.--On the 28th inst., at Colue Cottage, Uxbridge, the wife of William Gale, Esq., of a son. RINTORE —On the 27th inst., at 7, Ainslie-place, Edinburgh, the Countess of Kintore, of a daughter. PETO —On the 24th inst., at the residence of her father, 3 8 , Acacia-road, the wife of Charles Peto, Esq., of a daughter. MARRIAGES. CHRISTIE—BRIDOMAN —Ou the 29th inst., at the parish church, Woolwich, .T, R. Christie, Esq., F.R.S., to Emily, daugh- ter of Dr. Bridgman, of Woolwich-common. Monaax —Mausuatt--Un the `.. , 8.th inst., at St. George's Bloomsbury, William, second sou o f .J. Morgan, Eaq'' of Canterbury, to Mary Louisa, the elder daughter of Mr. Marshall, of Groat Coram-street, Brunswick-square. D;EATITS. CHAMBERS - Ou the 27th inst., William Chambers, Esq., Of 10, Limes Villas, Lewisham, and late of Maddox-street, aged (19. CLEAVER—On the 28th inst., at 31 A, Halsey-street, Thomas Henry Cleaver, Esq., late of 11.31.'s Stationery-01" aged 62, CoLF.—On the 28th inst. at Islington, O x f o rd-road, Islington, the Rev. Henry Cole, late of Clare College, Cambridge, aged 66. KrArtxs.y--On th e 25th i ns t William Hy, Kearney, Esq., Memb er of at 114, liolborn, the New Society of Painters in Water Colours, aged 53. SCOTT—On the 25th inst., On board the R.Y.S. schooner Alca, off Falmo u th, Charlos F. Scott, Esq., of 7, Keabing ton-park-gardens, Hyde-park , age d 31. I..oNDox ; Printed anti fubtished hy , of No. 112, Strand. Printer, at he Sun Office, Sc. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy. in the county o f uidoi esex . Wednesday, June 185 S. • ~'"' .., V ~r