The Sun. — London, England, 1859-04-05 00:00:00

try.. He went on to say Parliament would not permit - us to resign, and Parliament would not permit us to dissolve. I F ;hould like to know where the noble viscount has found tb at doctrine. It has always been held to be the constitu ti anal prerogative of the Crown, when and where it pleased, t o dissolve Parliament, and since the memorable year of 1784—which the noble viscount would have done well to remember, for the attempt was followed by disastrous con aequences which recoiled upon the heads of its authors— there has been no attempt to interfere with the prerogative of the Crown to dissolve Parliament when and for what reason it thought fit. I have trespassed at great length upon your lordships, but I thought it due to myself and my colleagues—l thought it due to the position which my :friends and myself hold—l thought it due to the serious :subjects that press upon our attention—that I should not disguise the difficulties which surround our present system of Parliamentary government ; that I should not disguise the views, hopes, and expectations upon which we brought forward a bill for the settlement of this important question ; and that I should not also disguise the nature of the oppo sition we encountered, and the character of the vote by which the House of Commons has not condemned the bill of the Government, but has prevented the Government from fairly bringing it forward. (Cheers.) As I have already stated, when the vote passed in the other house my colleagues -and myself were fully and unanimously of opinion that there were only two alternatives which it was possible for us to select—viz., to take upon ourselves the responsibility of advising her Majesty to dissolve Parlia ment so soon as it could be done consistently with the discharge of those duties and the performance of that amount of business which is indispensable before a dissolu tion can take, place, and thereby making an appeal to the deliberate opinion of the country ; or, in the second place, to offer her Majesty our gratitude for past favours, and with a deep sense of her Majesty's kind ness and confidence humbly and dutifully to tender to her Majesty the resignation of our offices. My lords, we carefully considered these two alternatives, and I can assure your lordships that, if we had considered our own ease and comfort—if we had considered anything but the imperative calls of duty—if we had not been prepared to sacrifice our private convenience to the public interests, there was not one of my colleagues who would not, with me, joyfully accept the alternative I have pointed out,—who would not have embraced with satisfaction the opportunity of relieving themselves from the cares, labours, and respon sibilities of 'office, and who would not have content edly withdrawn into the retirement of private life. (Hear, hear.) My lords, the interests at stake were too great to permit us to consider our private feelings and personal conveniences. There was the critical state of affairs abroad as well as at home, and I will repeat again, I believe that the preserve . tion of the public peace of Europe, if it is still to be main tained, will be seriously endangered by any change in the present composition of her Majesty's Government. My lords, I speak this not boastfully as to myself and my col leagues, but I know that there is no country in Europe in which the lovers of peace do not look with serious appre hensions to the overthrow of the present Government and the substitution of a Government presided over either by the noble viscount the member for Tiverton or the noble lord the member for the city of London. (Cheers.) My lords, we are not insensible to the inconvenience of a dissolution at the present moment, to the delay which it will cause in the conduct of public business, to the various evils which are inseparable from a dissolution of Parliament at this season of the year ; but wishing to hold the balance between the two, and believing that it is essential that in the present state of things the country should have an opportunity of pronouncing an opinion, and of applying, at the earliest possible opportunity, a remedy for the presentunsatisfactory state of things, we thought it our duty respectfully to ten der our advice to her Majesty that she would be pleased to sanction as early a dissolution of Parliament as shall be com patible with the state of public business ; and, if her Majesty should not be pleased to approve of that suggestion, we humbly and unanimously tendered to her Majesty the resig nation of the offices we held. Her Majesty was graciously pleased, without any hesitation—not being insensible to the inconvenience of either comae—but without hesitation, her Majesty intimated her pleasttre that we should continue to hold our offices, and her Majesty sanctioned an appeal to be made to the judgment and decision of the people. My lords, to that appeal I look with confidence. (Hear, hear.) But the country will greatly mistake the nature and cha racter of that appeal if it supposes that the question which is submitted to it is, whether this or that measure of reform should be adopted, and whether this or that clause or pro vision should be inserted in the bill. (Hear, hear.) We have redeemed our pledge to propose to Parliament what we thought would have satisfied the reasonable expectation of the House of Commons, and would have shown the con - ciliatory spirit in which weundertook the question. But my lords, after the vote of the House of Commons on this sub ject, we hold ourselves free from the provisions of that bill, and free to reconsider the whole question anew without pre judice and with due deliberation. (Hear, hear.) The course adopted by the other house on the motion of the noble lord the member for the city of London will have this effect, that no single member of that house, who may be uncon nected with office, will be by his vote pledged to one single provision of that measure. (Hear.) The principles and de tails of any new bill will be as open to consideration and de liberation as they were before our measurewas submitted to Parliament. (Hear, hear.) I know some of my friends in the House of Commons have threatened me that if I go to the hustings upott his bill I shall be beaten, and my sup porters have been] efied to meet a popular constituency with this bill. I know not about the hustings, because that is not a place where calm deliberation always prevails, but where passion and clamour often carry the day. But lam satisfied that, where any constituency will calmly and fairly consider the merits and demerits of that measure, they will be of opinion that the bill we offered was a large, libe ral, and useful measure of reform, and one which, while largely extending the advantages of the franchise and ad mitting many of the lower classes, yet did not indiscrimi - /lately admit such a number as to overbear all other classes, and enable the lower classes to monopolise the representa tion. (Cheers.) The House of Commons, however, has thought fit to prohibit the discussion of that measure. The amendment of the noble lord will have the effect of post poning for another year the settlement of the question of reform. (Hear, hear.) It will have the effect of creating serious inconvenience to the public interests by the inter ruption of useful and necessary legislative measures, by the check it will give to commercial speculation, by apprehen sions of the possible consequences of a change of Ministry, and of danger to the peace of Europe. I know all this, and I know, too, that the vote which the House of Commons has pronounced will not have the effect in the slightest degree of establishing any principle of Parliamentary re form. My lords, we do not appeal to the country on the subject of Parliamentary reform, still less do we appeal to the country on the particular provisions of that bill. We appeal to the country on a much larger and broader ques tion,—whether the present state of the House of Commons —split up as it is into hundreds of petty parties, either of which is unable to conduct the business of the country, but which are able, by combining together, to obstruct any Government that may be formed—shall receive the con tinued support and countenance of the people of England. (Cheers.) We appeal to them as men who have endea voured faithfully to discharge the duties of our office, who endeavoured to deserve the confidence which the House of Commons has withheld, and the confidence which our Sovereign has been pleased to renew to us ; we appeal to them to know whether they will entrust the preparation of a measure of reform to those who would approach it in a calm and deliberate spirit, and discuss it in a moderate and temperate tone—or whether they would entrust the pre paration of such a measure to men who have embarked upon the wild and visionary schemes of the honourable member for Birmingham, and the hardly less dangerous and visionary propositions of the right honourable gentle man the member for Carlisle, the partner of the noble lord in concocting this resolution. (Hear, hear.) We appeal to them whether, as lovers of fair dealing and plain and straightforward conduct in public men, they will sanction the overthrow of a Ministry who, in honourably endeavour ing to discharge their duty, have fallen, not in pursuance of a difference of opinion brought forward in fair Parliamen tary conflict, but who have been overthrown in consequence of the success—the undeserved, but I will not call it the unanticipated success—of what I must be permitted to term an ingenious manoeuvre. (The noble earl resumed his seat amid loud and prolonged cheers.) Earl GRANVILLE would make a few observations upon what had fallen from the noble earl. The noble earl had, he understood—for he was not present when he commenced his speech—begun by reference to the moderation of the de bates in the House of Commons, which, as he (Earl Gran ville) thought, added greater force to their decision. But if he concurred with the noble earl in his praises of the moderation of tone which had characterised those debates, he must say that there were portions of the noble earl's speech which did not deserve the same meed of approbation. (Hear.) The noble earl commenced by stating that there were three courses open to him and his colleagues after the vote of the House of Commons. The; first was to resign; the second to dissolve ; and the third to continue in office, and to bring in another bill concurrent with the opinion generally entertained by the House of Commons. The last named course the noble earl entirely repudiated. He never theless thought it might have been adopted by the govern meat without any derogation from their character, and the more so that it was not totally inconsistent with the course taken by the noble earl himself last year. (Cheers.) It was thought, too, that there were some advantages in a conserve tive.govermnent going on with a reform bill when the wishes of the House of Commons were once knoVen with regard to it, not because a conservative government would have brought forward a measure of sham reform which a liberal govern ment could not do, but if they chose to bring forward a bill that would satisfy the reasonable expectations of the people they would, for the reasons pointed out by Mr. Walpole in 1 his letter to the noble lord, have a better chance of carrying such a measure than any other Government. When, how ever, the noble earl declared it to be inconsistent with what he felt to be due to his honour, and the honour of his col leagues, to follow that course, he accepted that declaration, and he was sure that there was not one of their lordships who would any longer wish that he had, followed it. (Hear, hear.) The second course was resignation, and to meet the objection to his not adopting that it appeared that the greater part of the noble lord's speech was directed. The noble lord began with a review of the state of parties ; and he (Earl Granville) agreed very much in what he said on that subject. No doubt the condition of parties had changed • very much from what it was in those days when Walpole and Pitt could command enormous majorities in Parliament to vote anything at the bidding of the Minister. He quite concurred with the noble lord that it would be inconsistent with a reformed House of Commons that upon every little question upon which the Government of the day might happen to be placed in a minority they should resign. Nevertheless, it was important that any Government charged with the affairs of this great country Should have a numerical support in the House of Commons, and should likewise have a policy of their own which the country could understand. (Hear.) And when the noble lord dwelt on the want of cohesion that characterised the Liberal party, h e must be permitted to say that it was in the nature of the Liberal party to want cohesion more than the Conservative party. (" Oh, oh," and cheers.) It was clear that a party which stood upon ancient usages and ancient ways was more likely to be consistent, if united, than those who adopted the general principles of progress and advancement. But when the noble lord went further, and objected to the Liberals being divided into so many guerilla parties, he must surely forget the run he had himself made, and the attacks of those guerilla parties in former times—(hear, hear) specially those of that famous guerilla chief, Mr. M. Gib. sour—(cheers and a laugh)—and that when he made his celebrated motion against the late Government, the noble lord found it so entirely in accordance with his own >p that t h at b sc i u mpod M tilts opportuitY Mel and his efficient aid in turning that Government out. (Hear, ' hear.) The noble lord went on to deal with the other al• ternative, and he (Earl Granville) owned that he regretted the 20 minutes which was occupied in this poi tion of the noble lord's speech, nor could he help feelin4 . while the noble lord spoke that his regret was shared by noble lords on his side generally ; and he was not quite sure whether that feeling of regret was confined to that (rt a Opposition) side of the house. He had said that he had not heard the commencement of the noble earl's speech, and the reason has that he had waited in another place to hear the state ment of the noble lord's colleague there. He must say that that statement was made by the Chancellor of the Exche quer in the best taste. It was short, and to the point, and by no means the least of its merits was that it totally avoided everythihg like personal attack. (Cheers.) But the noble earl, on the contrary, had thought it worthy of his place and his position in that house to go on for something like 20 minutes— The Duke of ARGYLL --Thirty-two minutes. (" Hear," and a laugh.) Earl GRANVILLE submitted to the correction of his noble friend. Well, then, for 32 minutes instead of 20 minutes the noble earl went into a detailed biographical memoir of a noble lord who had certainly done some things for which he was well entitled to the thanks of the country, and who would be perfectly ready and able to answer for himself if he could be present in that house. (Hear.) It would, he was sure, be idle in him to follow the noble lord through that long atement ; he would merely say that part of what the noble earl stated was not correct in point of fact. (The Earl of Derby here made an observation across the table which was not heard in the gallery.) The noble earl, in one of the sorest sentences he (Earl Granville) had ever heard, objected to receive advice from a political rival. The Earl of DERBY—When the noble earl asserts that I am wrong in point of fact, I should be glad to know in what respect ? (Hear, hear.) Earl GRANVILLE would mention one instance. The noble earl, with an amount of imagination he had scarcely ever heard excelled, and which he could not but admire, said what had happened with regard to Lord John Russell, that his colleagues had requested him to resign in 1852. He was one of Lord John's colleagues in the Government of that day, and he utterly and distinctly denied that any one of his colleagues made the slightest suggestion to him of that kind. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord then came to the third alternative—that of a dissolution. There could be no ob jection to that course. It was a perfectly legitimate and constitutional course ; it was a course that threw great re sponsibility on any Government that adopted it at any time, and a course that ought to be carefully weighed before it was resorted to, not only as to all the circumstances attend ing the dissolution, but the result that was likely to arise both at the hustings and in Parliament. (Hear, hear.) He, however, was not afraid, looking at the spirit of moderation which characterised the people of England, of the appeal being made to them on a subject which was most interest ing to them all, and he was free to admit that the course the Government had resolved upon was a very honourable and constitutional course. (Hear.) But what he wished to know a little about was the exact issue upon which the country was to be appealed to ? (Hear.) As to Parlia mentary Reform the noble lord had cast that into the air, leaving the country to catch it as they could, and in what ever shape it might fall into their hands, and in that shape he was prepared to deal with it. (A gesture of dissent from the Earl of Derby.) The noble earl shook his head ; that, however, was what he gathered of the noble lord's inten tion from his speech, and he was the more inclined to think he was right as th it was exactly the policy he adopted when he appealed to the country on the great question of free trade and protection. (Cheers.) It was impossible, then, to gain from him any intimation of his policy, but he left it to the constituency to make a policy for him. (No, no.) And if he could understand plain English this was the course he intended to pursue now. He was sorry to have detained their lordships at such length, but he could not avoid making these observations after hearing statements from the noble earl which he certainly was not prepared to hear when he entered the house. The motion was then withdrawn. RAILWAY TICKETS BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. The report on the Manslaughter Bill, with amendments, was received, and their lordships adjourned at half-past seven. HOUSE OF COMMONS.--(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. _ The following bills were read a third time and passed : Border Union (North British) Railway ; Mersey Docks and Harbour ; Mid-Wales Railway. The following bills were considered and ordered for third reading :—Great Western Railway ; Mid-Sussex and Mid hurst Junction Railway ; North British and Selkirk and Galashiels Railway Companies ; North Eastern Railway (Nidd Valley Branch) ; Sirhowy Tramroad ; and Tyne Improvement. The following bills were read a second time :—Fishguard Harbour Improvement, and Standard Life Assurance Company. PETITIONS. Several petitions were presented in favour of repeal of the hop duty; for the reform of the ecclesiastical courts in Ire land ; for the admission of Dissenters to the same privi leges as those enjoyed by members of the Established Church in reference to endowed charities ; against the County Prisons Bill and the paper duty, &c. COUNTY COURT DEBTORS. Mr. HUGHES asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any steps had been taken to re►ulate the imprisonment of persons who were at present subjected thereto by county court judges, and if not whether any in convenience would arise from rescinding that portion of the order which subjects persons to imprisonment in a recusant ward ? Mr. SOTHERON ESTCOURT said there was no such order as that alluded to in existence, but persons under the circumstances must be regarded as misdemeanants, and it was not intended to make any alteration in the law le specting the same. THE OFFICE OF SECRETARY OF STATE. Mr. WILLIAMS asked whether the statement was true which had been made publicly that the Earl of Malmes bury had, up to the present time, refused to pay the £2OO stamp duty required by the act 55 Geo. 111., c. 184, to be paid on the patent of appointment to the office of Secre tary of State ; and whether, in consequence of such refusal, the patent of appointment of the Earl of Clarendon to the office of Foreign Secretary did not now exist unrevoked The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that his noble friend the Earl of Malmesbury was ready to pay the fee if he was satisfied that those who preceded him had. (Laughter.) The matter had been sub mitted to his hon. friend the Attorney-General, who would make a report to him on the subject. :MINISTERIAL EXPLANATION. The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER.—Mr. Speaker, in rising to move the adjournment of the house, I do so in order that there may be a motion before the house, so that if any gentleman wishes to make any ob servation on the statement I have to make he will enjoy that opportunity. (Hear, hear.) I took the liberty on Thursday night, after the vote which the house arrived at, to move the adjournment of the house to this day, because I thought it would be respectful to the house that in the course which her Majesty's Government might think fit to adopt in consequence of that vote there should not appear to be even the semblance of precipitancy. (Hear, hear.) After what I declared in the observations which I made to the house during that debate, and after the declarations of several of my colleagues, the house, I am sure, will not be surprised when I announce that it is not the intention of the Government to proceed with that bill for the amend ment of the representation of the people which I introduced exactly five weeks ago. (Hear, hear.) It is due to the house that I should state that it is not the intention of her Majesty's Government to propose any measure with the same object. On their part I protest against the doctrine which seems to be held by some, that the question of Par liamentary Reform is to be the appanage of any individual, or the privilege of any particular party. (Hear, hear.) I hold that it is quite free for a body of public men profess ing the opinions of her _Majesty's Government, or gene rally any political party professing Conservative opinions, to deal with questions of Parliamentary Reform, or any other public questions, in that manner which they may feel to be most expedient for the public welfare, and most conducive to the public interests. Iu - deed, I would say, not to promote any controversy, which I studiously desire to avoid, but to prevent misconception, that the question of parliamentary reform is the one of all others which may be viewed in two lights. (Hear.) There is the conservative view of the question, and there is—not to use the word offensively—the revolutionary view. (Laugh- ter.) That is to say, there is the conservative view, which in any change it may recommend wishes to preserve and main thin the present character of the House of Commons, which is a representation of the various interests and classes of the country; and there is the revolutionary principle, which attempts to change that character, and to make the House of Commons a representation merely of the voice of a numerical majority. (Hear, hear.) But re serving to ourselves under all circumstances our right to deal with that question, we feel that at present we have fulfilled our pledge. (Cheers.) We have fulfilled our pledge to the house and to the country at great personal and party sacrifice—(hear, hear, and cheers)—and we are not pre pared to enter into any specific arrangement on that subject. (Hear, hear.) The vote to which the House of Commons arrived the other night has rendered it necessary for the Government to consider their position in this house. I am bound to say, because I think it best always to deal frankly with the house, that before the house arrived at that vote, the Government had seen fit to consider their position. Eyer since the commencement of this session of Parliament the Government found themselves frequently in minorities, and many of them on subjects of no mean importance. (Hear, hear.) Our position has been a painful one, and we have had before this to consider whether it was not our duty to make a communication to the house, but we refrained from doing so for three reasons : in the first place, notwithstanding the array opposed to us, however numerous might be the force mar shalled on those benches, we could not perceive that there was any principle of cohesion in those ranks, or any unity of policy or purpose more evident than when, in consequence of the distracted state of the Liberal party, Lord Derby was summoned by her Majesty to place himself at the head of affairs. (Hear.) Under these circumstances we felt we were bound as men of honour not lightly to relinquish a post which we acceded to in the spirit of the constitution—which we had knowingly accepted with all those conditions and consequences attached to it. In the second place, the state of foreign affairs was very critical. Her Majesty, under our advice, had consented to become the mediator between two great military monarchies, with a view, if possible, to pre vent a war occurring in Europe. It was therefore highly expedient that there should, if possible, be no change of Ministry, and that the Government should at that moment appear, as far as possible, to have the general confidence of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) There was yet a third reason which induced us to take this course. After the frequent promises and procrastinations which had taken place onthe subject of Parliamentary reform—remembering that for 10 years it had been acknowledged in this house that that sub ject ought to be dealt with, and after the triple recommen dations. of the Crown —after the triple pledge of the house— after the triple poli c y o f successive ministers—it us that it would be a very heavy blowters—it did seem to to the character of public um and ofP4irlinceut it we, iat our twin, owned to evade the engagement whicl i we had made, and the require • ments of the country in the .t respect. (Hear, hear.) And remembering that the house had pledged itself to give a careful and patient consider ation to that subject, we thought that even if we did not succeed in our general endeavour, it was a good and beneficial tb Ling than an honest and earnest, even if an unsuccessful mes Lsure should be brought forward in the house by us. 1:41u .enced by these three powerful considerations we retained our seats on these benches under circumstances which I admit involved a degree of mortifi cation, and which we - bore - from a feeling that on the whole we were doing our duty to our Sovereign and the country. (Hear, hear.) But the-vote to which the house arrrived on Thursday rendered it impossible for us any longer to be quiescent. That was a vote of censure on the Government —(loud cheers, and " no, no")—it was intended as a vote of censure--it was ack n owledged as such by its principal pro moter, and as such I was accepted by her Majesty's Govern ment ; and the how ie having arrived at the vote, we felt that the Government of the Queen was deprived of all autho rity. I may be per mitted for one moment to offer to those gentlemen whe sit on these benches the deep expression of our gratitude for the manner in which they supported us during the late struggle. (Hear, hear.) I am perfectly aware that no Minister can bring forward a measure to amend the representation of the people, from its vast and various character, which can meet with the general and entire concurrence of his supporters. I know well that many amongst those with whose confidence we are honoured made no little sacrifice in supporting us on that occasion. But I am:sure they did !so because, whatever their opinions on matters of detail, they felt convinced that nothing but a sense of duty, nothing but a belief on our part that the measure we proposed was advantageous to the country, was in strict consonance with those Conservative principles which we uphold—nothing but a conviction of that kind on their part would have induced them to give us the generous and never to be forgotten support we received on that occa sion. (Hear, hear.) During that debate an eminent mem ber of the house said that the rule of party was over in this country. If that be true I should deeply regret it, because I have been always of opinion that if party rule is over, Parliamentary rule will soon cease. (Hear, hear.) lam quite convinced that in a popular assembly, so numerous as the House of Commons, there can be no guarantee for its in dependence and authority but political connection amongst those who sympathise generally on the same points of pub lic affairs. (Hear, hear.) Ido at all agree with the right hon. gentleman who gave that opinion during the late debate, and I think I can appeal with some pride to the conduct of the Conservative party on that occasion, for I think they showed a high spirit and consciousness of duty as a great political connection, which will be appreciated in the country, and which will redound to the credit of the house. (Hear, hear.) What has occurred is an event which would be affectation to say has come upon us altogether unexpectedly. It is, in deed, a result which more or less we have contemplated from the moment we accepted office under the severe and difficult conditions on which we agreed to carry on the affairs of the country. Last year the blow was averted by the support we received from a large party opposite of gentlemen who sit below the gangway. On this occasion I think it is my duty to tender the thanks of the Government to them for the support which during the last session we received from them. (Hear.) It was a support given without solicita tion—it was a support given without conditions—(hear) — it was a support given by gentlemen who on all conditional questions entertained opinions diametrically opposed to those which we profess. Therefore I believe it was a sup port given because they appreciated the peculiar position in which the house was placed by the state of parties. Therefore I am bound to believe it was a support given from a pure sense of public duty. (Hear.) Having offered the thanks of the Government to those to whom it was due, if I might for a moment refer to something personal to my self, I would offer to the house generally, and especially to all gentlemen opposite, my thanks for the courtesy and kind feeling with which they supported me in my attempt to carry on the business of the house. (Hear.) That has happened to me which probably has never before fallen to the lot of any public man. I have been twice called on to lead the house without the advantage of a numerical ma jority of supporters. The task of conducting the business of the house is under no circumstances a light one—(hear) —but the burden was necessarily aggravated by the cir cumstance to which I refer, and I feel that imperfect fulfil ment could not have been accomplished had it not been for that courtesy and general good feeling which I have expe rienced on all occasions, not only from friends, but from those who sit opposite to me in this house. (Hear, hear.) Having touched upon these points, it becomes my duty to inform the house of the step which her Majesty's Govern ment have thought it their duty to take. I had to ask my self, first, whether that evidence of want of cohesion on the benches opposite to which I have already alluded still ex isted. I had to askmyself whether there is there that unity of policy and purpose on questions domestic and foreign which was so essentially wanting when we acceded to power, and which was the cause of our acceding to power. I had to ask myself whether there is any evidence of the unity of feeling being restored and that political cohesion being esta blished. With regard to the late division, a resolution of censure was certainly carried against the Government. But this was remarkable, and the two most eminent leaders, on that occasion, of the Opposition indicated that at the moment that resolution, which almost anybody might have voted for —(hear)—was carried, they should both of them recommend exactly a contrary policy. (Hear.) The noble lord the mem ber for the City of London declared that the moment that resolution was carried he should exert his utmost energies to defeat the measure of the Government as noxious and pernicious ; but the noble lord the member for Tiverton declared that as soon as that resolution was carried he should, on the contrary, support the measure of the Govern ment as a measure containing a great many good things, and as one which it was of the utmost importance that it should pass. (Hear.) After the division was called, a scene took place which was certainly no eNidence of unanimity of feeling on the part of the Opposition. An hon. gentleman rose and proposed to append to the resolution of the noble lord a recommendation of vote by ballot. Every attempt was made to prevent a division taking place ; but when the proposition was made, it is a fact, a division took place notwithstanding the most active exertions, and at least one third of the majority supported a policy which certainly was not recommended by either of the noble lords. Under these circumstances, sir, not seeing on the part of hon. gentlemen opposite more ability to form an administration than last year when they felt it necessary to retire from these benches ; and seeing that the Opposition consists of a number of sections which, no doubt, can at any time combine to overwhelm the Queen's Government, who ever may form it ; and seeing that in the present state of affairs there is no security, but almost every certainty, every February, of a Ministerial crisis with, perhaps, all its consequences ; believing that this state of affairs is prejudicial to the repute of Parliament, and injurious to the best interests of the country; believing it to be of the utmost importance at this moment that the authority of Government should be supported by the authority of Par liament, and not being conscious that during the time we have exercised power we have done anything to forfeit the good opinion of our countrymen, we have thought it our duty to advise her Majesty to exercise her prerogative and dis solve the present Parliament. (Loud cheers from the Mi nisterial benches.) In the present state of affairs that is the part which we think most conducive to the public interest. Under these circumstances, sir, it is my duty to inform the house that as soon as the urgent requirements of the public service can be satisfied, Parliament will be prorogued with a view to its immediate dissolution. There are some votes which must be taken ; there are some acts which must be continued ; there are some measures before us, such as that concerning the finances of India, which must, under all circumstances, be attended to ' • but as to the other measures of the Government, I do not propose to proceed further with them, unless, indeed, the house should wish to dispose of the Superannuation Bill. That I leave for the decision of the house. (Hear, hear.) Having now stated to the house the course which her Majesty's Government thought it their duty to advise, and which her Majesty has adopted and sanctioned, I will only, on the part of myself and my col leagues, express the sincere and solemn hope that whatever may be the consequence of this appeal in our personal posi tion, it will be found to have been conducive to the conve nience of her Majesty, to the Houses of Parliament, and the great interests of the country. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman having moved the adjournment of the house, resumed his seat amidst loud cheers. Lord PALMERSTON—Sir,—The right hon. gentleman in one part of his address, tendered his thanks to the members of this house for the courtesy he had met with in the per formance of his duty. lam sure, sir, Ido not otherwise than express the general feeling of the house when I re turn our thanks for the courteous bearing with which the right hon. gentleman--(cheers)—has always conducted himself in the performance of the duties belonging to his position. (Cheers.) Whatever differences of political opinion may have arisen between any portion of the house and the right hon. gentleman, as representative of the pre sent Government, no personal feeling otherwise than agree able can have arisen. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, we have been informed by the right hon. gentleman that her Ma jesty's Government having understood the vote of last Thursday to be a vote of censure, in the first place deli berated whether they should resign their offices or not, but on consideration came to the opinion that it was their duty still to retain them. They felt, however, the state of par ties in this house was such as that it would not be for the public interest that they should continue to perform their duties with the present House of Commons ; and believing that the people at large entertained more favourable opinions towards them than the majority of this house, they had ad vised the sovereign—and the sovereign has accepted the advice—that they should recur to the sense of the people by a dissolution. Sir, I am not about to taunt them with having come to a determination to main tain themselves in power—l am not one of those who consider that the resolution, carried by so large a majority, ought to be accepted or understood to be a vote of censure. It was not in that sense I supported it. I looked on the resolution as a very Parlia mentary and very convenient mode of expressing an opinion on two of the leading features of the measure submitted by the Government. In voting for the resolution I did not mean in any way to express a censure. In my opinion it cannot be maintained at this time and in this house, that when ever a majority of the House of Commons shall object to a particular measure, or a portion of it, proposed by the Go vernment of the day, the expression of that objection by a large majority shall be taken to be a censure of the Government in such a manner as should make them consider whether they ought to resign office. If that doctrine was to be laid down in the present state of Parliament since the reform of 1832 it would be im possible for any Government to carry on the administration for twelve months. Such was not the doctrine before the Reform Bill; instances are on record of many measures of importance being negatived by Parliament when the Go vernment never considered it required them to retire from the administration of affairs. The right hon. gentleman has stated the grounds on which her Majesty's Government, consisting of persons who up to a certain time were adverse to any change in the laws affecting the representation of the people, had thought it their duty to bring in a bill. I think the Government in doing so had a proper sense of their duty ; I think that, after what had passed, they ought not to have taken office in February last unless they were . prepared to bring in a measure of the kind. lam of opixon, Oat, if they had brought is a measure founded on Till& SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 5, 1859 what has appeared in the course of the debate to be the gene ral opinion of the majority—if they had proposed a moderate measure, founded on plain and ordinary principles, it would have passed this house almost unanimously, and most likely would have passed the other house. The Government,how ever, have acted otherwise : they have proposed a measure to two main principles of which the majority object. The question, then, was for the Government to consider what they ought to do. In my opinion, if they had deemed it their duty to retain office they would have acted in confor mity with the engagements they had undertaken whenthey undertook the administration of affairs, and in accordance with the words they had placed in the mouth of the Sove reign at the beginning of this session, if they had with drawn the bill and introduced another very differently framed, or proposed to alter the bill in committee. I think that was their duty, and I do not think to have pursued such a course would have been any disparagement of their personal or political honour ; they would only be doing now what they did last year on the India bill. Having brought in a bill, the result of their own consideration, which was not acceptable in the opinion of the house, they yielded to that opinion and threw it over ; in the same way they ought, on the present occasion, to have submitted to the house. The only condition on which a ministry in a mi nority in this house could continue to preserve themselves in power, was by adopting views on questions of great national importance which will suit the views of the ma jority of this house. The Government has decided to advise an appeal to the country. That is advice which it is competent to any Government to give the Sovereign, and I will not oppose any obstacle to prevent their decision being carried out. (Hear, hear.) This I will say, I think it is very unwise advice. I think, in the present state of affairs at home and abroad, it will be of very little advantage for the national interest that there should be a dissolution. In the first place, though the Government may say that the question to be put to the country will be whether they have more confidence in them than in other parties, every man in the country will understand the question is what shall be the Reform Bill. (Loud cheers from the Opposition benches.) If they had continued in office they might have carried a bill which no Government which may succeed them will propose to the country. The question on every hustings will be the details of the Re form Bill. I will not enlarge on the inconvenience of this, or its injurious effect for those who advocate a moderate measure. I will say the course they are about to pursue is the last course calculated to further the objects of moderate men. Sir, many men will be pledged beyond their own in tentions, and, if I may venture to prophesy, so far from having a Parliament more disposed than the present to support the Government, I tell them the new Parliament will be much more likely to transfer power from their hands. That, however, is for them to consider. With regard to the state of affairs abroad, we have been told that the country is engaged in negotiations for the preservation of the peace of Europe, that the question of peace or war—of a war of the most extensive character, or a peace on a solid basis— ia now pending in the councils of Europe. It is important, when such a question is pending, that the Government of England should hold such a position as would give it full authority in these negotiations, We all know that a Go vernment whose existence depends on events which may take place within six weeks is not a Government to which the other powers of Europe will look with much deference. With regard, therefore, to foreign affairs also the course now taken is not one calculated to promote the interests which I believe the Government have at heart a desire to promote. I say they would have done better if, deeming it their duty to maintain office, they had, without a dissolu tion, brought in another measure of Reform calculated to satisfy the just expectations of the house and country. If that measure had passed they would have had not only the satisfaction of avoiding the disturbance at home which must arise from a dissolution now, to be followed by another in'next autumn or winter after of a Reform Bill— (hear, hear)—but they would have the advantage of going into Congress, if into Congress they are going, with all the weight to be derived from a Government in possession of the confidence of the house and country. (Hear, hear.) I do not exactly understand the grounds on which the Government decline to bring in another Reform Bill. Ido not under stand whether the right hon. gentleman means that when the new Parliament meets the Government will consider their former pledge null and void, and that they mean to carry on without bringing the question before the house. If such be their intention, they will find they will not be able to carry it into effect. If I understand the right hon. gentleman rightly, it is the intention of the Government to take an early moment to dissolve. I would entreat them to take the earliest possible. (Cheers.) I am sure they will find no impediment thrown in their way by any.inember. (Hear, hear.) It is the right of the Crown on such an oc casion to appeal from the house to the country. I 'may think it would be more advantageous not to make that ap peal, but the fact being announced, I am sure the house will concur in accelerating as much as possible the moment for making it. I think that before Easter the Government may be able to pass the measures absolutely necessary, so that not one day may be needlessly lost. I trust also that the new Parliament will meet again on the earliest possible day after the writs are returnable ; indeed, I - need hardly ask the Government whether suoh is their intention, for as the votes will be only partial, Parliament must meet as soon as possible. I can only express my regret, not that the Go vernment has retained office—it was for them to consider whether it was their duty to do so—l can but regret that, having deemed it their duty to retain office, they have deemed it their duty not to go on immediately with a mea sure of reform • but instead of that they have determined to put the country to the inconvenience—l hope it will not be so bad or so full of evil as it threatens—of a dissolution, which must be followed in a few months by a second dis solution, as a consequence of that measure which the Go vernment, whatever it may be, will be obliged by a sense of public duty to propose. Mr. BRlGHT—Although, sir, I feel, in common with many members, that the course now taken by Government may subject us to a large amount of personal inconvenience, and that it is just possible some of us now assembled may never find ourselves together under the same roof again— at the same time I think, considering all the circumstances of the case, leaving out of view any personal interests, it was impossible for them to come to any other conclusion. I think the Government has taken the course which acting on well known rules and well understood constitutional require ments, they were bound to take. (Hear, hear.) We must bear in mind that the question was one of the gravest that could be submitted to us by a Government, and they were defeated by a majority which exceeded one-half the whole number of members, a majority very unusual when the ex istence of a Government is at stake. We must bear in mind that the question before us was not one entirely for Parlia mentary Reform, but was one in which every country where Parliamentary institutions are established it would be considered right to send back to the constituencies to dis cuss and decide before Parliament came finally to adjudi cate. The noble lord the member for Tiverton has spoken of the dreadful consequences of asking the constituencies for their opinion. That certainly was a kind of observation I scarcely expected to have heard. Surely if we cannot trust the existing constituencies to express an opinion as to what should be the extent of popular power in the constituencies for the future, we ought rather to limit than to extend them if we are afraid to ask their opinion on a great question in which they are all so vitally interested. Sir, with regard to the course taken by the right hon. gentleman and his col leagues I applaud it. I believe that excepting their imme diate and instant resignation it was the only course at all possible for them, and therefore I approve and applaud it. The right hon. gentleman in announcingthat course cleared the ground a little for himself and his friends, and tried to get up a little political capital against some of us on this side of the house. (Hear, and no.) I understood the right hon. gentleman to clear himself and his colleagues from all con nection withreform for the future. (Hear, hear, and no.) I understood him to say that the pledge given last session had been redeemed, and that we are not to expect the Government to run their vessel on a similar rock when they put to sea after we come back again. I have no objection to that ; I believe that was a foolish pledge last session. The right hon. gentle man has held up an option to the country; he has told the con stituencies that he and his friends offer them a meausure of reform, conservative in its character and its operation, but that if they do not take this they will get a measure of revo lutionary reform. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman knows full well the value of a cry. In one of his earliest works he furnished the Tapers and Tadpoles of the day with a cry ; the cry then was, Our young Queen and our old Constitution." (Laughter.) The cry now is, that he and his friends are in favour of a conservative reform, but the noble lord the member for the City, and all on this side of the house are in favour of a measure of a revolutionary cha racter. It is very odd that the bill of the right hon. gentle man should actually—looking to the difference of numbers --have received a more determined opposition on that side of the house. I did not think the measure of th e Govern ment' was so very conservative—a portion of it seems to lead actually in the direction of a revolution. lam not at all afraid of the tribunal to which the right hon. gentleman and his colleagues are about to bring us. I presume that if he refers to anybody more distinctly than another he means to refer to me, for among the propositions which have been before the country, the one which was most connected, moat definite, and most discussed, was that put forward by me, and I undertake to say that in any proposition for Parlia mentary reform put forward by me, or which I have advo cated or supported, I have proceded exclusively in the line laid down by the bill of 1832, and in accordance strictly and rigidly with all the landmarks which the most gifted states men of this country for the last sixty years have laid down. If to make the constituencies larger and freer—if to give seats from handfuls of people spread over small and decay ing towns to the large populations of the great counties of commerce, industry, taxation, and public opinion—if that is revolutionary, then I have unlearned the meaning of the word. (Cheers.) I believe these proposals will be satisfactory to those members of this house and those people of this coun try who are anxious that the House of Commons should be a fair—l do not mean mathematically exact, but still a fair representation of the great population, great interests, the intelligence, industry, wealth, and virtue of this country. Are these the people to be charged with an attempt at re volution ? I rise for the purpose of making that declara tion; I make it because I believe in my conscience it is true, and I believe it is the opinion of all the constituencies in the kingdom. The right hon. gentleman and his col leagues have remitted to the constituencies this great ques tion between us. I accept the issue. I warn the right hon. gentleman when he and his friends take their places on the hustings, and when the papers commence the attack —I warn them against making charges such as these. If they will take such ground, they alone must take the con sequences. They know on what side the numbers will be if they dare the contest to the utmost ; it is their side, not ours, will come off second in the strife. Let us go to this great contest in a spirit of calmness. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) As far as possible let us give all vigour to the constituency—let us discuss it fairly. Do not charge them with revolutionary designs. (Hear, hear, and oh.) Ido not charge you with revolutionary designs. I only charge you with being unacquainted with the opinion of the coun try, and ignorant of what it is necessary for you to know.. I will say no more than that I entirely approve of the course taken by the right hon. gentleman and his colleagues in this emergency. I believe that when Parliament meets again there will bo evidenced such a decided opinion on this subject as will enable some Government to pass such a bill as will enable every one of us to say to every malcon tent, if there- be any such left, if Parliament is not a com plete, it is a fair representation of all interests, and in our lifetime at least we can never again be called on to discuss this question. (Cheers.) Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, there have been some observa tions made by the right hon. gentleman which I cannot suffer to pass ; there is one observation, however, in whichl entirely concur. He has said he does not consider the ques tion of reform to be the appanage of any person or anypartY; in that I quite agree. I have said before I thought it very doubtful whether Lord. Derby ought to have accepted office last year. My own opinion is that he ought to have refused— (hear, hear, and a laugh)—but having accepted it he was bound to have introduced a bill for amending the represen tation. So far I agree with the right hon. gentleman, but if it is competent to any person or any party to introduce such a bill, surely it is competent to any person or to any party who considered the bill mischievous to oppose it to the utmost of their power. The right which the right hon. gen tleman claims for himself surely he will not refuse to us. I have taken the course I did because the bill appeared to me a noxious and a mischievous one. I have taken a course which I believe to be most Parliamentary and most con venient for the house, because if we had gone into com mittee on the bill, found fault with the most material parts, and had gone on rejecting clause after clause, and inserting new clause after new clause, we should have had the question raised every hour whether the Government ought not to throw up the bill, and whether the last vote or the vote before the last was not destructive to the measure. Sir, the right hon. gentleman has told me that by proposing this resolution I have, according to his judgment, prevented him from declaring that the peace of Europe was secured. I beg the house to recollect that the right hon. gentleman, in bring ing forward this measure, stated it was a measure so im portant as to be far superior in importance to any question of peace or war—that war had a limited duration, whilst a reform bill would influence the destinies of the country for many generations. After this the right hon. gentleman thinks it right to cast a censure upon me be cause when he moved the second reading, I have opposed it. If he be correct in his opinion, that any opposition to this bill will be dangerous to the peace of Europe, I say in that case the responsibility rests with the Government, not with me. They had no right to propose a bill of such vast consequenence and press it to a second reading if any op position to it would be dangerous to the peace of Europe. (Hear, hear.) They have no right to say, This is a bill which affects future generations and alters the entire con stitution of the country, placing the representation on a new basis, yet you must pass it with only the slightest altera tion. You must pass it almost as it is, or you will disturb the general peace of Europe. I believe nothing of the kind. Sir, I do not believe our vote or our treatment of the bill will have any influence on the settlement of European peace. (Hear.) Now, sir, I will proceed to the question with re gard to the manner in which the Government have received the late vote. Sir, I admit there are two points in the re solution which might induce the Government to think that it was intended to be a vote of censure ; but, on the other hand, we must consider what are the interests involved, and what are the reasons which induced the Government to bring forward a measure of reform. On one point Ido not agree with my hon. friend the member for Birmingham. Ido not consider it desirable that this great question should be sub mitted to the decision of the constituent body before it is finally settled. I think it was of great importance that this house should endeavour to settle this question in thepresent session —(hear)—and in the late debate there was so much agreement with regard to the general principles of any measure that would be likely to pass, that it would have been in the power of the Government, if they had introduced a reason able measure, to obtain the support of the house. (Hear.) Considering the state of public business, considering the state of affairs abroad, considering the danger that with re gard to this question itself parties may become more and more wide asunder, I think it was the duty of the Govern ment to exhaust every means of getting this question settled before they resorted to the measure of dissolution. (Hear, hear.) Dissolution is of course a perfectly constitu tional proceeding. There can be no question on constitu tional grounds with regard to their advice to her Majesty to dissolve this Parliament and summon another. Whether it was a wise course is undoubtedly a separate question, and one upon which the new Parliameut will probably have to decide. Now, sir, I was much taunted during the late de bate upon the vagueness with which I spoke of any future measure of reform which I should be disposed to support. Sir, I was vague advisedly. (Ministerial cheers.) I knew perfectly well that if I sketched out a measure which I thought would be adopted by this house, debaters on the other side would fasten on what they conceived to be its defects, and would in that way endeavour to conceal the radical faults of their own measure. (Hear, hear.) I re joice that the measure of the Government has disappeared. My belief is that in the first instance it must have tended to the creation of boroughs as close as the nomination boroughs which were disfranchised under Schedule A in the Reform Bill of 1832. I believe that its second conse quence would have been muchgreater innovations than any Conservative party would have liked to see. (Hear, hear.) Sir, my notions of a reform bill are far more humble. have no objection to tell the house what those notions are. (Hear.) In the first place, I do not propose any new basis of representation. I should preserve the representation of the House of Commons in counties, cities, and boroughs, as it has been from the earliest times down to the present day. I should propose a £lO franchise in counties. (Hear.) I think the argument of the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the Government could hardly have pro posed a higher franchise without the risk of being thwarted by a majority of this house, was a sound argument, and I think the Government acted wisely in proposing a franchise of that amount. Those franchises which have been called " fancy franchises" were included in the bill of 1854 ; and though they may require some revision and amendment, I am inclined to think those franchises would introduce a largo number of persons who are well qualified to vote. With re gard to the franchise for boroughs, I am of opinion, not withstanding all that was said on the other side in debate, that it would be useful, that it would be safe, and even that it is absolutely necessary in order to make the representa tion safe, to introduce another class of voters in boroughs ; and that I would do by reducing the present yearly value of £lO to £6. (Cheers.) I think there is great advantage in not having the parliamentary franchise the same as the municipal franchise. In introducing the Municipal Re form Bill I stated it to be the opinion of the government of that day that it was desirable to keep the two franchises distinct. -I am of that opinion still ; and the reports which I have heard from various parts of the country with regard to the municipal franchise have not led me to the conclusion that it would be desirable to introduce that franchise for the election of members of parliament. (Cheers.) But I believe —contrary to the opinions which were expresseed in such strong terms from the Treasury bench—that it is desirable to introduce a large portion—a large body, I should say— of the working classes into a constituent body for the election of members of parliament. (Cheers.) I believe they are sufficiently instructed to make a good choice. A great po litical writer has remarked that there is a vast difference between a judgment with respect to political measures and a judgment with respect to the men who are fit to be en trusted with political power. I believe that is a perfectly true observation, and I do think that the addition of large numbers of the working classes would form a better and sounder basis of representation in this than we now pos sess. [An HON. MEMBER—" The freemen ?"] lam glad that the hon. gentleman has mentioned the freemen, because I am certainly of opinion that as matters at present stand it would not be wise to interfere at all with them. (Ministerial laughter.) In 1832 we settled the privileges of the freemen as they now stand ; we did so after much debate in this house, and still more debate in the other house ; and I do not think it would be wise to make any change in that respect, although I proposed to do so in 1854. (Hear.) Now, sir, there is another question which I think should be made the subject of a separate bill ; I refer to the question of die franchisement and the redistribution of seats. (Hear.) That is a question which is encompassed with the greatest diffi culty. There is not merely the question of disfranchisement to be disposed of in the first instance, but the subject of re distribution raises questions with respect to counties and towns of the utmost difficulty in the solution. (Hear.) My opinion is that if about 26 seats were taken from the smallest of those boroughs which have two members and given to large boroughs which have no member—if the 26 seats, with the four vacant ones, making 30 in all, were given to such places as Birkenhead and Staleybridge, such an arrangement would be a very great advantage, and would last for many years. Of course it would be presumptuous to say that it would last for ever. My opinion is, however, that such a measure as I have indicated for the reform of the representation would settle the question for many years to come. I do not wish to use any vagueness on the subject, but I think such a measure would be infinitely better than the late measure of the Government, that it would produce much less disturbance in the representation, and that it would have the effect of returning a House of Commons more fully qualified to carry on the business of the country. (Cheers.) Sir, the right hon. gentleman and his colleagues have chosen otherwise ; they have chosen to make declara tions in this house of the strongest nature against any fur ther lowering of the franchise, against any further admis sion of the working classes. " No, no," from the Minis terial benches, followed by Opposition cheers.) I have heard it over and over again. (Hear, hear.) From the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and other right hon. gentlemen, I heard over and over again, the state ment, that with the exception of the franchises which they proposed in their bill, they were opposed to any ad mission of the working classes, and that they were opposed to the lowering of the £lO franchise. I believe that declara tion to be ono which, if it were supported by the new Parlia ment, would be exceedingly dangerous. I believe that its tendency is to make a most useful and industrious class of men hostile to those who are above them in station. They would no doubt consider themselves excluded by an arbitrary and invidious line, and I am sure Parliament would not be able to maintain that line permanently. There is one question more which my noble friend the member for Tiverton touched upon, and to which I wish to advert ; I refer to the question whether, when this Parliament is dissolved, a new Parliament will be immediately summoned. Whena dissolu tion was announced in 1841, Sir R. Peel asked for a pledge that no time should be lost in summoning anew Parliament, but that it should convened as soon as possible. I suppose it is the intention of Lord Derby and his colleagues to pur sue a similar course ; it would be quite unconstituional if they did not pursue that course, if they refrained from meet ing the new Parliament as soon as possible. They have, as Ministers of the Crown, taken great responsibilities upon themselves, and I think it is the duty of the House of Com - mons to aid them as far as possible by furnishing such sup plies as may be required. [The noble lord being about to resume his seat, there were loud cries from the Ministerial side of the house of "The Ballot."] On that subject I can only say, that if the present Ministry introduce a new Re form Bill, and that bill contains a clause for establishing vote by ballot, I shall consider it my duty to oppose that clause. (Cheers.) A desultory discussion followed, in which several mem bers re-opened the question of the late bill. Mr. W. PATTEN and other members urged the Go vernment to declare the precise time when Parliament should be dissolved. CONDITION OF THE . NAVY. Sir C. NAPIER wished to ask the Fiist Lord of the Admiralty when the report of the commission which had sat on manning the navy would be laid before the house ? After a few words from Mr. LINDSAY, Sir J. PAKINGTON was understood to say, in reply, that whenever the next Privy Council should be held, orders would be given that the recommendations of the first part of that report should be carried into effect. CIVIL SERVICE SUPERANNUATION BILL. . _ Mr. WILSON trusted the Civil Service Superannuation Bill would be considered further before the dissolution. This was not a party measure ; it was prepared in the main by the late Government, and brought in by the present one. The house had already spent a whole evening this session in discussing the merits of the measure ; it was ono in which the public service took the greatest possible in terest, and he trusted therefore the Chancellor of the Ex_ chequer would see the advisability of its being further con sidered before Parliament was dissolved. REFORM. Mr. COGAN expressed a hope that in dealing with the question of reform it should be dealt with as an Imperial measure, and that a stop should be as much as possible put to the practice of exceptional legislation. (Hear.) Ireland and Scotland and this country now formed a United King dom, and he did not see why they should be treated in an exceptional and not an Imperial line of :legislation. He should also be prepared to include in any Reform Bill which might be hereafter proposed the protection of vote by ballot. (Hear, hear.) COURSE OF PUBLIC BUSINESS. Nr, AMON Willed to ask the 0 0 , 40 441 9 r of tiie g4s chequer whether it was intended that during the remainder of the session orders of the day should take precedence over notices of motion on Tuesdays and Thursdays ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said—lt is my duty to reply to several questions, and also to offer a few observations to the house. I think I ought first to inform the noble lord the member for Tiverton and the noble lord the member for London as to the period at which we anticipate the new Parliament will be able to assemble. (Hear, hear.) I must say I was rather surprised at the pomp of patriotism with which the noble lords put that question. (Hear, and a laugh.) Did they suppose that the Government were not going to call the new Parliament to gether before next February ? (Hear, hear.) That would be impossible with the state of feeling which exists in this house. (Hear, hear.) But the noble lords must have known from their own personal experience that such a course would be perfectly impossible. What we are going to do now is to ask for a set of votes, the influence of which will only reach over a very limited period. Even the financial statement which it was my intention to make next week, cannot now be brought forward. (Hear, hear.) Now, lam asked when the dissolution will take place. (Hear, hear.) Of course I could not come down to the house to-day with perfect confidence upon the subject, because, after the extraor dinary announcement made in the late debate by the noble lord the member for Tiverton, I could not have anticipated I should have received that support from the house which, under other circumstances, I might have re lied upon. I may say now that on the occasion of the last dissolution it only took 16 days to bring about the proroga tion. I should hope we shall not take a longer time now. Every effort will be made to carry on affairs; and, generally speaking, I anticipate that on that day on which it is pro bable I shall move the motion for the adjournment of the house for the holidays I shall be able to announce the pro rogation, and in that case the dissolution will probably take place towards the end of the month. (Hear, hear.) With that view I shall propose, if it is agreeable to the house, that Government orders of the day shall take precedence of notices of motion on to-morrow and every succeeding day during the remainder of the session. (Hear, hear.) I shall now notice an observation which I have heard in the course of the present debate, that the announcement which her Majesty's Government have to-night made was not one which was made with that due consideration to which a matter so weighty was entitled, but was one taken up hastily after they had first recommended to themselves a different course. It has been said that we at first intended to resign, but that on second thoughts, and upon some influence else where we altered our minds. There is, sir, no foundation whatever for that assertion. (Cheers.) Her Majesty's Ministers have from the commencement been fully sensible of their responsibility in the conduct they should pursue, and never, from the moment it became necessary for them to come to a decision, hesitated as to the course they should adopt. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord the member for the City of London has this evening made a statement of a very important character. I shall not, as is sometimes said, say that it would be important if it were true, because I am sure that the noble lord, when he made the statement, believed it to be true ; but I will say that he has made a great misre presentation to the house. The noble lord has said that I stated it would be dangerous to the peace of Europe if our bill were to be opposed. Nothing of the kind ever escaped from my lips. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) I never deprecated opposition. On the contrary, had the bill been fairly en countered—had it even been rejected—by the house, I should not, considering the responsible character of the measure, in the settlement of which so many Governments have failed, have thought that that decision implied any censure upon, or any want of confidence in, Government, and should not have thought it the duty of Government to take any step of extraordinary importance upon such an event. (Hear, hear.) What I did complain of was, that the bill was not encountered fairly—(cheers)—that the noble lord should trust himself between the house and the bill with a party resolution, the object of which— I do not say that such was his lordship's object—was perfectly well understood by the house to be the dis turbance of her Majesty's Government, and that such was likely to be its result was afterwards avowed by the noble lord himself. (Cheers.) It was the irregular conduct of the noble lord which had I said embarrassed negotiations, and endangered the peace of Europe—a statement, sir, which I here emphatically repeat. (Cheers.) The rejection of the measure we should have accepted from the house with respect. With regard to what has fallen from the hon. gentleman the member for Devonport, I agree with him that it is advantageous to the public interests that the Superannuation Bill should be passed in the present Par liament ; and, perhaps, as there appears to be a general con currence of opinion upon that point, we may be able to give it the sanction of law before the dissolution. (Hear, hear.) There is but one other point on which I would touch, and that refers to a statement made by the other leader of the Opposition, the noble lord the member for Tiverton. The noble lord said that it is apparent frommy speeoh that there is to be no further Reform Bill from the present Govern ment. It is more possible that I may not have adequately stated our intentions to the house, than that a person of his lordship's acuteness could misunderstand them. It was not my intention to make any such statemert. What I did do was to guard myself and the right honourable friends with whom it is my pride to act from the imputation that we had no right to bring forward a Reform Bill. In opposition to that I asserted our right, and I went further and stated that not only had we the right, but also that it was our duty to deal with the question. But what Ido say is that, hav ing fulfilled our pledge in bringing forward a Reform Bill, at great personal and political inconvenience, I held myself free from any distinct pledge for another measure, but that we should deal with the question when the occasion justi fied our doing so. My observations all had reference to the meeting of the new Parliament, and I assert our right to deal with the question, and state that it is our intention to do so whenever the occasion may justify us in taking that course ; but we do hold ourselves exempt from any pledge that would make it our duty to bring forward another Reform Bill in June. That is not at present our intention, nor under any circumstances do I contemplate our doing so. In conclusion, I beg leave to withdraw the motion for adjournment. Mr. SPOONER, before the motion was withdrawn, wished to inform the hon. member for Kildare that he in tended to call the attention of the house to the subject of Maynooth. EAST INDIA FINANCE. Lord STANLEY then rose to make a statement in refer ence to the finances of India. He said that he was bound to admit that the statement whichle was about to place be fore the house was not as satisfactory as that which he had brought before their notice in February last. He believed that all measures relating to India would be considered by the house upon their own merits ; and hero he would ob serve that it might be necessary for Government to ask for larger borrowing powers than two months ago they could have thought at all necessary. Was this owing to any error in the calculations, to any excess of expenditure over income, or to any deficiency of the revenue of India ? He believed he would be able to show that this increased de mand of India upon the money market of the country was not due to any one of these three causes, but was exceptional and temporary in its character. It might be remembered that, in February last, he stated that he had not before him the Indian estimates for 1858 and 1859, and that, therefore, his information was necessarily imperfect ; but still he had no option but to come forward with a specific demand. Even now he had not sufficient data for his calculations to place them beyond conjecture. Ho thought that looking at the fact that while the mutiny was raging—while great destruction of property was going on—while great expense was being incurred in raising new levies—and while the con fidence of the people in the stability of the British Govern ment there was shaken, and that India had been able to sup ply sufficient revenue for the government of the country----for with the exception of £1,000,000 of bullion sent out in 1857 no money went to it from this country—it was not unnatural that we should have considered that the resources of India were equal to the demand made upon them. He believed that the present failure was owing to remarkable circum stances in India. He would not say that the credit of the Indian Gevernment in India was impaired, but that its borrowing powers were diminished. Such a state of things could only arise from want of capital, from want of confidence in the stability of the security offered, or from the capitalists hanging back for higher terms. He did not apprehend that any one would allege that it arose from any want of capital, for from all sides they heard that those who required money for private undertakings experi enced no difficulty in obtaining it on favourable terms. The capitalists of England were inclined to hold back, in the hope of obtaining better terms than were now offered. Without going into detail, he would take a general view of the terms offered on the last three leans. In August, 1856, they were 4t per cent. ; in January, 1857, 5 per cent. ; and now they were 5t per cent. On the other hand, the native capitalist thought that as the wants of the Government in creased, the rate of interest would increase in a similar pro portion ; and it invariably happened that when a higher rate of interest had to be offered - there was a constant depre ciation of the existing stocks. The difficulty in which the Government now found itself didnot resolve itself into a ques tion of larger expenditure or smaller revenue. It was simply a question of having to borrow a larger sum l in England, in consequence of the power to borrow in India being reduced. What were the present requirements of the Government of India ? The calculation of the Government was that they would want in round numbers £11,500,000. That amount involved a deficiency of ways and means to that extent, but it did not involve a corresponding deficiency in revenue. Tho calculations included payments to be made on account of railways, amounting in the whole to £4,500,000; and u a t ft i e n r making all deductions and allowances, the actual defi ciency of 1859.60 would be £ 9,000,000. In 1857 it was the same; in 1858 it was estimated at £12_,500,000, b reality had turned out to be £ 13,000,000 . Referring to the question of ways and means, the house had to consider in, what manner the requirements of the Indian Government were to be made up. The amount was £ 11 ,500,000. The Government proposed to borrow in India £5,000,000. The produce of the new taxes was estimated at £1,000,000, and the difference would have to be made up in England. It was proposed to take the cash balances required at £11,500,000; but there would still remain claims for com - pensation and prize money, and these added to the ordinary expenses of the Home Government - would require £4, 500 , 000. By this bill it was proposed to raise £7,000,000, which, ac cording to present calculations, would give a margin to the Government of about £1,600,000. The railway recei p ts had increased in amount from £l, bu 6oo, llion to India , there 000 to £2,300,000, so that, after sending £1,000,000 would still rem a i n a surplus of £1 300,000. The payment for railways in of progress m India wo uld, he was told, amount to £4,000,000. If that were so, the sum taken in the bill, with a slight addition, would be sufficient to carry them through the year. But he must admit that as to those payments on account of the railways there was complete uncertainty. There was also much uncertainty as to the revenue which opium would yield. There was a confident hope that the loan would not amount to £5,000,000, but it could not be accurately stated, neither could the amount of military expenditure be very closely approximated. He did not propose to recommit the bill, nor to ask the house at present for any larger amount. He apprehended that £3,000,000 would be more than sufficient to meet every want; but the house must see, from his imperfect state ment, that it was impossible to make any precise and definite statement, and .that much must be left to conjecture. An obvious advantage would result from the course which he proposed, namely, that Parliament would have an oppor tunity of re-discussing and re-considering this question, and giving to it that close attention that it so eminently deserved. He felt satisfied that the mere fact of the bill now under consideration receiving the sanction of Parliament would re-assure the people of India, and show to them that Parliament was ready to meet the de mands of the Indian Government, but it would in agreat &grog restgro cgdidenco to the capitaliat iu Lndia and , perhaps go far toward(: superseding the necessity for the loan. He was of opinion that, upon the whole, the finances of India were in a less unsatisfactory condition than they appeared to be ; for the revenue of last year showed alarger growth than had ever previously been the case in India The claims for eompensation would be dealt with at met,. whilst forfeitures would fall in and swell the revenue. Large ped, be made in the arm y i n I n di a ,, reductions could, 11,1 ho and ten regiments wean at present coming home. He did not doubt but that afte2' the hot weather there would be a considerable reduction. As to the new taxes, the subject was considered in the Indian Council. He was prepared to recommend an increase teethe Customs duties, a s it was thought the most unobject, 'enable and the wisest mode of increasing the revenue. The Crnergency had come suddenly upon the Indian Government, and they were prepared to deal with it, and to take the matter into their own hands. Only two taxes were mentioned to be imposed at once : an. increase in the Customs duties and the stamp duties. How ever, all the papers which he had received, and which could with propriety be laid before Parliament, would be pro duced. He now proposed to take this stage of the bill. Mr. V. SMITH observed that the statement of the noble lord differed materially from that of the noble lord at the head of the Government in another place. As regarded the loan, it was most likely that the natives before they sub scribed were waiting to see if they could get better terms. He must say, the whole accounts and finance of India ap— peared to be in a most unsatisfactory state. The noble lord_ stated that he was not about to ask for more than £5,000,000 ; if he had he should have agreed to it. Mr. VANSIrf ART said that he was not aware that this debate was coming on, and had not his notes with him. From the information he had received he thought it would be quite necessary to raise another £5,000,000 in addition to the £7,000,000. As to an Imperial guarantee, it was impossible to borrow from the natives at 51 per cent. They would never be able to do witl tout a considerable force of European troops in India, but a great reduction in the native force might then be made. Ere would also remodel the Legislative Council, and would encourage the construc tion of railways, and also the settler vent of Europeans. As to the expenses of the establishment, he would sell the old place in Leadenhall-street. He was WA! that it would fetch £350,000. He would also reduce the coenicil front 15 to nine. He understood all the business was ,divided be tween three different committtees of five each. fl,e thought three would do the work quite as well. He would .not turn out any of the present members—the dear old creatures — (laughter)—but would allow them to die out. He would also do away with one of the Supreme Courts. Her amid not see the use of two such courts. These alterations would effect a large saving to India, and he believed would make the Government popular. Mr. R. CRAWFORD wished to call the attention of the house for a short time to the subject of Indian finance. The present practice was to maintain an open loan, and for the officers of the Government in the different presidencies to receive money directly on behalf of the Government. On the Ist of May, 1834, when a new state of things began in India, the public registered debt in India was £30,195,000. On the Ist May, 1856, it was £44,028,000, being an in crease of £14,000,000. The interest had not increased in the same ratio. In 1853 the interest was reduced from sto 4 per cent., and a feeling of distrust had thereby been created in the minds of the people of India. In 1854 the deficiency in the revenue of India was £690,000, and the prospective deficiency for the year following was estimated at £872,000, making a deficiency of £1,560,000. Notwith standing that deficiency orders had been sent out by the right hon. baronet the member for Halifax for a reduction of the guaranteed interest from 5 to 4 per cent. Soon afterwards a notice was issued for a loan, under the name of loan for public works, but it soon appeared that it was intended to cover the deficiency of £1,560,000 to which he had referred, and to provide for a like sum required. to pay off the dissentients who would not accept per cent. instead of 5 per cent. The result had been a feel ing of intense distrust in the minds of the people of India from that time to this with respect to the financial opera tions of the Government. Last year, at the very time the Government ought to have upheld the value of Indian securities in the market, they took measures , which had brought about quite an opposite result. The only creditable part of these transactions was the notification issued to ths public by the Government of India, which has been pub lished in this country a few days ago. So long as different schemes remained floating in the market, scarcely above par, it would be difficult for the noble lord to procure the means to carry on the public works contemplated in India. Sir C. WOOD thought it was of the utmost importance that steps should be taken at once to equalise the expendi ture and income of India. The expenditure was estimated at £53,435,000, and the income at £46,692,500, leaving a deficit of £6,742,500. Unless there was a reduction of ex penditure, not by tens of thousands or hundreds of thou sands, it was impossible to bring income and expenditure to an equality. It was incumbent on the house to pests on the Indian Government the necessity of such measures of retrenchment. He did not think the mode suggested by the hon. member for Northampton, by means of a com mittee, was the proper course, for if the Indian Govern ment, consisting of men who had a knowledge of the affairs of India, could not accomplish the purpose, it was' not likely that this house could do it.. It must be done by the Indian Government in India, or by the Indian Council at home. Unless the house was prepared to insist on the Government in India doing it, he despaired of seeing it done at all. He was aware of the difficulties which the Indian Government had in reducing the salaries, &c. ; but when they looked at the magnitude of the deficit, he hoped sone means would be taken to meet the difficulty. Mr. T. BARING said that the reduction of interest, though it was said to have been successful, and it might have been temporarily so, was permanently - unfortunate. He viewed with anxiety the disposition to guarantee publics works. Economy was to be established by letting India pay only for Indian wants, and not making her aid in pay ing for our own national wants. He had some apprehene increased, e b o f u tthoe only very of g E rad ng u l a an ll and taxes could not be sions that hereafter a time might come when, if the Minis ter was not sufficiently firm to resist, India mi g ht b e ma de totowards sth in e cr e contribute Therevenue w might o be put on without consulting the feel ings of the people. There must be retrenchment, and.that mainly in the army. There was not now that double Gce vernment which was said to have acted as a sort of buffs against pressure. The pressure now came directly on a Cabinet Minister. Sir G. C. LEWIS should like to hear from the Governi ment some statement as to the prospects of diminishing the number of the European forces in India. (Hear, hear.) Ifs could not understand it to be the interest of the War De partment to maintain a larger force in India than ti tat country absolutely required, and he believed the Homes Guards would be glad to hear that it was in the - power of the Indian Government to dispense with some of the reg i ments at present in India. Looking at the present state 'of the Continent, it was not desirable that 90,000 of our army should be maintained in that empire. Ho hoped the Go vernment would be prepared to announce the probable re duction of the number of Earopean troops now serving -in that country. (Hear.) Mr. H. BAILLIE believed that if India were governsed in the spirit of the Queen's proclamation, and without ho' terference with the religion of the natives—(hear, our troops, with the assistance of the native army, could b• reduced to 60,000 men. (Hear.) ' Colonel SYKES said that there was a large deficiency ill Indian finance, and it was likely to continue. He believed that philanthropists on this side of the water had much to answer for in diminishing the tax derivable from opiu3a2. Neither an. import tax nor an export tax would meet it he deficiency. Some people thought that an increase in the excise duties would suffice ; but this source would be quite inadequate. Works of irrigation, by improving the soil a ;nd increasing its value, would very much increase the revers as. in of t tls e. dir n ec e t t i r o o n n , ohm but en su t cwhasa p d la w n el e t o u ul p d on o . nly of be 200 per cent. upon the outlay o f ca pit a l m i g h t be obtain led course rtes n ul; curtailment of expenditure in this direction would tend to equalise revenue and expenditure ; but it did not look much like retrenchment to send twelve battalions of artillery ( sos to India when their presence was not required.. The brig' bear which had been raised was that England might be made responsible for Indian loans. These loans were for Imperial purposes, and it was only reasonable that the mother country should bear the burden of responsibility , in case of any sudden emergency. By the last mail ho lod received a letter from Sir James Outram, in which he said that he did not anticipate much result from the issue of Treasury bonds, and that the natives of India labiured under the conviction that unless an Imperial" lean. were raised in England Indian securities would become depre ciated. Without such loan the Indian population would not believe in the identity of the home and Indian Govern ments. His own belief was, that if India was restored to the normal condition she presented before the mutiny, .ex penditure and income would be mad e t o b a l ance themselves. Lord STANLEY said that all these questions of taxation were being considered in the Indian Council, although their deliberations had been somewhat interfered with by the fact that the Indian executive had themselves undertaken the subject. The bill was read a third time and passed. SUPERANNUATION BILL. This bill went through committee. POOR LAW AND MEDICAL CHARITIES gla. LAND) ACT AMENMENT BILL. This bill was read a second tithe. LAW OF PROPERTY AND TRUSTEES' RELIEF AMENDMENT BILL. This bill was passed through committee. DEBTOR AND CREDITOR BILL. This bill was read a second time. SAVINGS BANK (IRELAND) ACT AMENDMENT BIL. This bill wa s rea d a third time. PUBLIC OFFICES EXTENSION BILL. This bill went through committee. In reply to Sir H. WILLOUGHBY, Lord J. MANNERS stated that in reality no money would be required to be expended in order to carry out the purposes of this Act, although power would necessarily be taken for voting it in committee of supply in the usual way. The amount to be contributed by the suitors' fund, would, ' more than cover the expenditure contemplated by the Go , vernment. The bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow:' INMMNITY T went into com m itt ee on this bill, which was orderedhe home be read a third time to-morrow. , Some other bills Were brought in and forwarded a stage, and the house adjourned at a quarter to twelve. BIRTHS. CARTWRIGHT.—On the 3d inst., at Leamington, the 'wife of Aubery Cartwright, Esq., of a daughter. GRAY.—On the Ist inst., at Carse-Gray, Forfarshire, Mrs; Gray, of a son. MARRIAGES CLARKSON—HARRIS.— On the 2d inst., at St. John's, Notting-hill, Eugene Comerford Clarkson, Esq., of Lin coln's-inn, barrister-at-law, to Emilie Jane, the eldest daughter of J. Harris, Esq., of Hampstead. HEWETT—MITeRELL.—On the 4th inst., at the parish church of St. Marylebone, John, only son of J. Hewitt, Esq., late of Crofton Hall, Kent, to Rosina, widow of the late Henry Mitchell, Esq., of Bath. DEATHS. AGGs.—On the 3d inst., at Bruce -grove,' Tottenham, H Aggs, aged 79. BLAKESLEY.—On'the 2d inst., in London, Chas. Blakes ley, Esq., of Darlaston Hall, Meriden, Warwickshire. BUTCHER.—On the Ist inst., at Twickenham, George Butcher, Esq., aged 61. CA.LLCOTT.—On the 3d inst., at 10, Campden-grove, Ken sington, Maria Hutchins CaMott, daughter of the late Dr. Callcott, aged 60. SEVERNE.—On the Ist inst., at Torquay, Henry De Milt Severn, Esq., of Derby. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county of Middlesex, Tuesday, April .5, 1869. WU lig CUI an( Th, no Mr. The Gall 4baa 8' cons , Of to and indb Fun DISs ally effec entii and Egad Kids of a 18 th (Lry — Sc a ro rit4 the rep ( of d trea 'mu rest etre any 338., Ravi to 111 sent stre fron