The Sun. — London, England, 1859-03-19 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS-(YESTERDAY). The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clock.. _ The Bishop of CORK presented a petition from the Ro man Catholic and other clergymen in his diocese in favour of united education. The Earl of ABINGDON presented a petition from the Protestant Dissenters of Victoria Chapel, Windsor,praYing for a measure detclaring Dissenters eligible for the manage ment of trust funds. Earl GREY presented several petitions r aying for in quiry into certain recent circumstances that had taken Place at Hong Kong.. THE IRISH MAGISTRACY. In reply to the Marquis of LONDONDERRY, The Earl of DONOTJGHMORE said the letter of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, addressed to the Lieutenants of counties relative to the revision of the last list of Irish ma gistrates, was merely intended to obtain information as to the efficiency of the magistracy in general. After a short conversation, in which the Marquis of , Clanricarde, the Earl of St. Germans, and Lord St. Leo mards took part, the subject dropped. EDUCATION IN IRELAND. The Bishop of DOWN and CONNOR presented a peti tion, asking her Majesty's Government if it was intended, during the present session, to introduce any measure with reference to education in Ireland ? The Earl of DERBY said the subject of education in Ireland was under the consideration of the Government, but it was one surrounded with much difficulty. He could not promise that any measure would be introduced during .the present session, but he begged to assure the right rev. prelate that the subject was one that would not be lost sight of. • TIM TRADING COMPANIES WINDING-UP ACT. This bill passed through committee and was reported without amendments. PRIVATE BILLS. Lord REDESDALE moved that no private bill brought from the House of Commons should be read a second time after Tuesday, the 12th day of July next ; that no bill confirming any provisional order of .the Board of Health, or authorising any enclosure of lands under special report of the Enclosure Commissioners for England and Wales, or for confirming any scheme of the Charity Commis sioners for England and Wales, shall be read a second .time after Tuesday, the 12th day of July next : That when a bill shall have passed this house with amendments these orders shall not apply to any new bill sent up from the House of Commons which the chairman of committees shall report to the house is substantially the same as the bill so amended.—Agreed to. THE WATER-COLOUR EXHIBITION. Lord ST. LEONARDS asked her Majesty's Govern ment if any attention had been paid to the claims of the Water-Colour Society for a portion of ' Burling ton House ? The artists in water colours had up to the present time received no assistance from the country, and as so much had been done for the painters in oil, he thought the claims of the water colour painters ought not to be disregarded. The Earl of DERBY was quite ready to admit the ser vices rendered to the arts by the Society of Painters in Water Colours. He thought it very undesirable that that society should be placed in a sort of rivalry with the Royal Academy. As to the application for grant ing a portion of Burlington House, he must remind the house of the very many claims that had been put forward by different learned and scientific bodies for accommodation in that building. With respect to the negotiations on foot he trusted that some formal arrangement would shortly be come to ESTATES IN OUDE. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE stilled their lord ships' attention to the proclamation, despatches, and letters which had been interchanged respecting the settlement of the land question in Oude. Lord Canning was supposed to have announced a measure of universal confiscation, but no such extreme measure was ever contemplated by the Governor-General. He wished to know if any informa tion had been received upon the subject, or what were the intentions of the Government with respect to the tenure of land in thatportion of our Eastern empire? The Earl of DERBY said he hardly knew what question he was called on to answer, and having listened with the greatest attention to the observations of the noble marquis he did not exactly see the point of his remarks, and still less the policy and expediency of entering on the various topics .to which the noble marquis had referred. In the first place, the noble marquis was mistaken inand had misapprehended the expressions of the despatch of Lord Stanley when he said that it stated that Lord Canning had reversed his policy and cancelled his proclamation. He (Lord Derby) regretted that this question which had been raised last year with reg ard to Lord Canning had not been suffered to rest by all parties who desired to see that mutual respect and confidence which ought to exist between the Govern ment in this country and the Governor-General of India maintained, and he could not but think that the recurrence to such a subject was not calculated to promote the good understanding which ought to be maintained between the Government and the Governor-General. There was a dis tinction between the proclamation of Lord Canning and the course he had practically pursued, and it was on that ac count that his noble friend (Lord Ellenborough) had just taken exception to that proclamation. Lord Canning by his proclamation declared a universal confiscation, with six ex ,ceptions only, of the whole of the land of Oude. It was to that sweeping system of confiscation, which, if it had gone forth in the proclamation, would have prevented the natives from coming in and submitting to the Government, that his noble friend objected ; and he (Lord Derby) had never ceased to regret that the expression of his noble friend's opinions in his despatch had been prematurely made public, and which had caused some strong feeling in many quarters. As regarded the imprudence of the language of the procla mation, as it appeared in its naked ani unexplainedlorm, he (Lord Derby) had not altered his opinion, and he still main tained that the for m i n w hi c h th e proclamationi was drawn was not the best calculated to attain the object desired. But when the noble marquis charged Lord Stanley with stating that Lord Canning had reversed his policy, ho charged him with that which was not the case. What Lord Stanley said was, that practically, and in effect, Lord Canning had acted on a policy opposite to that laid down in his proclamation, inasmuch as he had made confiscation the exception and not the rule—and it was even admitted by the noble marquis himself that Lord Canning had acted sparingly on the prin ciple of his proclamation. Lord Canning had in the first instance put forth a policy which consisted in a sweeping confiscation, but he had acted on a principle the reverse of such a system. If, in the opinion of the Government, the course taken should have been the other way, and that opinion had not been shaken by the very able argu. ments used by Lord Canning in his reply to the despatch of his noble friend, the noble marquis, he thought, could not say that in the despatch of the Secretary of State for India to Lord Canning to which he had alluded there was anything inconsistent with the utmost respect. The despatch stated—" I do not propose to follow, paragr aph by paragraph, the elaborate arguments containe in these letters. They have been considered with the atten tion which was due to the high character and the distin guished position of your lordship ; and I observe with satis faction that the policy indicated in the document adverted to, as regards the claims of the talookdars and other pro prietors in Oude, has not in practice been adopted by you, and-is declared, on your own authority, never to have been intended to have been carried into effect. However indis criminate' and unsparing may have been the sentence of confiscation which your proclamation pronounced, that sentence has not been put in force ; and the issuing of it would appear to have been merely a menace, designed to strike awe into the minds of those still arrayed in arms against the British Government." Lord Canning in all the instructions which he gave to his various officers had universally shown an intention that though there had been a threat of universal confiscation held out, it was not to be practically carried into effect. He said in the 38th paragraph of his despatch :—" I afterwards had occasion to send my military secretary, Colonel Stuart, to head quarters, and I took the opportunity to explain to the Chief Commissioner that I wished him to give the most libe real interpretation to the proclamation : that, for instance, the proclamation left it free to notify to any talookdar who was deserving of consideration, that if he made submission and supported the Government the confiscation of his lands would not take effect, and that his claims to property of which he might have been deprived upon the annexation of the province would be reheard ; and that in the case of their having been resumed by him he might retain them until the rehearing." If those instructions and such ex planations had accompanied the draft of his proclamation to England, and if it had been accompanied by such a glossary and such explanations when it was conveyed to the knowledge of the natives of Oude, no doubt the despatch of his noble friend (Lord Ellenborough) would have been much modified ; but the proclamation was not accompanied by such explanation as was said to have been contained in the private letter which had never been communicated to the then President of the Board of Control. Her Majesty's Government concurred in the policy of Lord Canning as it had been acted on and carried out but they said that that policy was not that w hi c h was indicated m his proclama tion; but that, on the contrary, he had there laid down con fiscation as the rule and not as the exception. That was precisely the policy that those who were now the Govern ment had recommended all along, but it was not that which, judging from his proclamation, it could be supposed that Lorg Canning intended t o pursue. Therefore it was that L o r Stmley stated that he was glad to perceive, not that Lad Canning. had changed his views, but that he pursued practically and in effect a course different to that which he had laid down in his proclamation as the principle by which he was to be winded. The Gove rnment did not charge Lord Canning with havin g m entertained any other int en ti ons t h an those which ho had carried out, but all they said was that his proclamation conveyed av o ery different, as th ey thought t a dangerous, impression as the policy by w hi ch he was to be influenced. He thought that it w ou ld b e perceived that in Lord Stanley's letter he stated that the proclama tion was liable to be interpreted in Oude as it was inter preted in this country. and was calculated to produce an in jurious effect; but the noble marquis must, he thought, cls) Lord Stanley the justice to adm it that that opinion wa s conveyed in a friendly spirit, and that he expressed the satin - faction which the Government felt at the course which Lord Canning had pursued, and the confidence which _it th e Go vernment reposed in him. He (Lord Derby) hoped was consistent with entire respect and perfect un i fo rmity of action and confidence, that the Government shoul d be allowed to express a difference of opinion with Lord Canning, and he hoped that that expression of feeling with regard to the Governor-General of India having been an ill-used and in jured man, which was at one time so prevalent, would not be revived, or any attempt made to interrupt the friendly and' confidential relations which existed between that noble lord and the . Government. If any such impression still pre vailed with regard to the relations which existed between Lord Canning and the Government., it might perhaps be satisfactory to the personal friends of that noble lord to know that some months ago he (Lord Derby) directed it to be stated to him that it was her Majesty's pleasure that the grand cross of the Bath should be conferred upon him, and that so soon as it should be in his power to announce the con,plete pacification of Didia his services would be re warded by an advancement in the grade of their lordships' ' house, to which he hoped they would all see the noble lord return in health and honour. He hoped that the country of Oude was rap idly settling d o w n i n t o p eace an d repose, an d that it would be shortly i n the power of the Government to a anounce the entire pacification , not only of Oude, but of ho whole of Indic. Nothing ' had done saia much to wards the attainment of that roost desired object as her Majesty's gracious proclamation, and he was sure that no thi ag could tend more to unsettle and to disturb the present cor dttion of affairs in India than the existence of any idea that a difference of opinion prevail e d i n this country with regard to the policy to be pursued. He was convinced that Lord Canning was acting on the principles laid down her Majesty's proclamation, and he was in co nvincedthat by au adherence to those principles all traces of the late ,struggle would ere long be obliterated. If we were to retain. a hold upon Oude, if it was desired that the state of that country should be tranquil and undisturbed, we must govern - through and by means of the people in that count r y, and i thro ugh the influence of the talookdars, who however and iu w.hatever manner they mighthave obtained their pro. THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, perty undoubtedly exercised great influence over the people,. and it would afford the best means of maintaining our power in that country if we acted justly and scrupulously fulfilled all the engagements into which we had entered. The papers for which the noble marquis had asked had been already produced, and as regarded the proclamation, it did not re quire to be moved for, but ought to have been laid on the table by command of her Majesty, and he.waannable to say why that had not been done. He need not say that there was no desire on the part of Government to withhold from that house any information which had been given to the other branch of the Legislature, rior was there any desire to conceal the feelings and opinions which were entertained by Government with regard to any part of the correspondence. It wasthe wish of the Government that it should be publicly known in what manner Lord Canning had vindicated his policy, and on the other hand, on what grounds the Govern ment had come to the conclusion that that noble lord had departed from the policy originally laid down in his proclamation. Having done that, it should be also known that, as between the Government and the Governor-Gene ral of India the most frank and cordial confidence existed, and that on the part of the Government there was an ear nest desire to act with that noble lord with the utmost har mony, and that being so he trusted that discussions of this nature would now be brought to an end, and that we should not hear again of any supposed differences between the Go vernment again the Governor-General of India. Earl GRANTILLE said that no one was more anxious than he was to avoid all subjects of discussion which were likely to disturb the amicable feelings which existed be tween the Government and Lord Canning so long as that noble lord was employed by her Majesty's Ministry. Al though he had had no communication with Lord Canning for many months, yet the personal relation in which he stood towards his noble friend had made him, (Earl Gran ville) anxious to avoid bringing on any question which con cerned him, and he was not aware that the noble marquis was about to make this motion until he saw his notice on the paper. But when the noble earl expressed his astonish ment that the noble marquis should have brought forward this question, and that the house should receive the de spatch of Lord Stanley as a very friendly production, he must take leave to enter his protest against any such as sumption. He did not propose to re-open the discussio n which took place last year with regard to the.proclamation of Lord Canning. The question now raised was raised for the first time on account of a despatch which was written three months ago. What were the circumstances connected with that despatch ? In answer to a despatch of Lord Caroling, remarkable for its powers of argument, and cer tainly remarkable for nothing more than the calm dignity with which the personal question was discussed—(hear) — and the absence of all personal recrimination, and in which Lord Canning defended his policy in the clearest manner, an d w hi c h, whether right or wrong, laid down the reasons why he should have published his proclamation at once in stead of threatening some course which might be supposed to have an effect on the native mind and on the land tenure of Oude—in answer to that despatch was sent out a letter four months after the despatch itself had been received. He was not sure whether the despatch of Lord Canning was received before the close of last session. The Earl of DERBY was understood to say that it was after the close of the session. ' Earl GRANVILLE—It must have been soon after. At any rate, six or seven weeks elapsed after the despatch had been received, when, in consequence of some remarks in the Inewspapers with regard to its non-publication, it was given to the public through the usual channels of information. After some months had elapsed since it was received this was the despatch in which it was answered, and any one who took the trouble to read it, short as it was, would see that in one of its sentences it was declared that the policy laid down by Lord Canning in his ploclamation had not been carried out ; but while regretting that which was oalled a mistaken act on his part, it was stated that it was hoped that the measures taken by him for the suppression of the insurrection would be successful. He would really appeal to the house whether it could be said that a friendly feeling was the characteristic of that despatch? The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH rejoiced that the paci fication of Oude had been accomplished, and if her Majesty's proclamation was bona fide carried out by the Government, he entertained an earnest, perhaps a sangine hope, that the peace which had now been established would be main tained. After a few words from the Earl of HARDWICK; The Marquis of CLANRICARDE observed that the dif ference of opinion between the Government and Lord Can.. ning had been brought under the notice of Parliament in the first instance by the Government themselves. The motion was then withdrawn. INCLOSURE BILL. The bill •was read a third time and passed. Their lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY. The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Public Offices Extension Bill and Court of Probate, &c. (Acquisition of Site) Bill were read a second time, and ordered to be committed. The following bills were considered, and ordered for third reading :—Birkenhead, Lancashire, and Chester Junction Railway; and Caledonian Railway. PETITIONS. Petitions were presented against the Government Reform Bill ; for the adoption of a comprehensive measure of re form ; for the continuance of the hop duties ; in favour of the establishment of " intermediate schools" in Ireland ; for the repeal of the duty on paper; for the admission of Dissenters to the same privileges as the members of the Church of England enjoyed in reference to endowed schools ; by Mr. Berkeley, from Bristol, denouncing in the strongest terms the Government measure of reform, as a mockery, and praying for the adoption of the ballot and extension of suffrage ; by Mr. Bright, to the same effect, in favour of the Superannuation Bill. PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. Mr. ROEBUCK moved that the house at its rising do adjourn till Monday. He said,—l do so for the purpose of making certain observations, and, as I think it possible those observations may provoke some remarks, I do so, re serving to myself the right of reply. I suppose I may as sume that the great majority of this house is very anxious the question of Parliamentary Reform should be settled. That, I think, is not a very wild proposition, or one unsup- ported by facts. But it appears to me that the course the house is now invited to pursue will, if adopted, lead to the ' exactly opposite result. Now, with the permission of the house, I will address myself to the noble lord the member for the city of London ; he has put upon the books of the house a resolution which, if carried, will, though not for mally, yet in reality, negative the bill introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I think one consequence of this will be that you may not have a chance of passing any thing like a Reform Bill this year, because we are told to expect that the right hon. gentlemen on the Ministerial Bench will thereupon dissolve this house. (Some cries of " No.") Hon. 'gentlemen say " No, no ; " but they are sure in their hearts that what they so deny will be done, and if it is done it is quite clear that the question of a Re form of Parliament will be deferred till the meeting of the new house, when we may have a second edition of the pre sent bill. Mr. E. P. BOUVERIE rose to order. He wished to know whether it was competent to the hon. and learned gentleman, on a motion of adjournment, to discuss a ques tion that stood for debate on a future day. The SPEAKER said it would be out of order then to discuss a subject fixed for a future day, but he understood that the hon. and learned member proposed to address a question to the noble lord the member for London, on a notice the noble lord had,placed on the paper. Mr. ROEBUCK—I hope the house will grant me its in dulgence. I am not often in the habit of troubling it at any length, and what I have to say will soon be brought to a close. When I was so kindlyinterrupted—(langhter)—l was about to observe that by the course the noble lord would persuade the house to' pursue the question of Reform is very likely to be deferred indefinitely. I would therefore ask the noble lord to adopt a precedent of his own. During the last session of Parliament the right hon. gentlemen opposite brought in a bill to reorganise the Government of India. That bill did not meet any favourable reception in this house. The noble lord, then, with that chivalry that belongs to him, stepped in to aid the right hon. gentlemen opposite, and proposed that the house should proceed by way of resolution, that the bill brought in by the Govern ment should be dropped, and that the house should come to a resolution, on which a new bill should be introduced. The noble lord, having regard to the interests of India— and thereby for the interests of England also--prepesed that course. I now ask the noble lord to consider that the interests of England are bound up with a new Reform Bill; I ask , him whether he cannot borrow an example from his own principle, and enlarge the amendments he has proposed into a series bf resolutions which may be the foundation of a new and better bill. I put this ques tion to the noble lord, and I am sure he will be kind enough to give me an answer. (Lord John Russell shook his head.) I now ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, if the course I have suggested is pursued, her Majesty's Govern will be prepared to forego the present bill—(laughter)—and bring in another framed in accordance with the resolutions adopted by the house. Having put these two questions, one to the noble lord, the other to the right hon. gentleman opposite, I would address myself to the hon. gentlemen behind me—(hear, hear, and laughter)—particularly the hon. member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright)—who, I see, does not approve my suggestion. But I ask those hon. gentlemen to consider what would be the result if the pro position of the noble lord is carried. That proposition can only be carried by an alliance between the noble lord and the right hon. gent l emen who now sit on the Opposition benches. Last and we are the house dismissed those right hon. gentlemen • , called upon, by a sidewind, to do some. thing thatrew7lw re-establish them in office. (Hear, hear.) Now I, for one, am not prepared for that. (Cheers.) I will go further than that ; I do most earnestly request those hon. gentlemen who took 'part in th e proceed i ngs c onsider well what they are about now ; for it is quite clear that the proposition of the noble lord has been put on the paper with a full understanding with cer t a i n part i es on the Opposition benches. We know well what will happen, and I ask hon. gentl emen and I ask t he country if th ey are pre pared at this time, with the terrible state of affairs existing i i abroad, if they are ready to place the d est i nies of the coun try again in the hands from which they took them last year. Any dislocation of the Government of England at this mo ment may lead to terrible calamities abroad. A dissolution of the House of Commons may lead to instantaneous war! (Hear, hear.) Let me explain how. Europe does not under stand England. It will believe from a dissolution of this house that all parties are dislocated ; that we and all at sixes and sevens ; that there is no strength in English public opinion. It is English opinion that now keeps the world at peace. (Cheers.) But let the world believe that English opinion is as nothing, and there will be confusion, riot, and blood shed throughout the whole of Europe to-morrow. (Hear, hear.) With these considerations strongly oppressing - me, I ask the noble lord not to pursue the course he has pro posed. On his shoulders rest the great destinies of this country now, and by the course he is adopting he may bring upon us incalculable calamities. (Hear, hear.) Therefore I say, think carefully what you are about ; let no considerations of party, no considerations of self, no considerations of paltry ambition interfere and lead you to pursue a courEe that may be to the detriment of the coun try. I know well that the statements I have made will be disagreeable to certain gentlemen on that bench. By adopting the course I have suggested they may avert great calamities from England, though it may bring on their shoulders the great calamity of keeping them still in Op position. (Hear, hear.) But that is an object lat once declare I have very much at heart. (Hear, hear.) lam unwilling to detain the house longer. I only ask the noble lord to adopt the principle he acted on last year, and move certain resolutions on which a Reform Bill may be framed, so that the bill of the Chancellor of the Exche quer may be entirely dropped. Mr. COY: rose (amid considerable laughter) to express his obligati( ms to the hon. and learned member for asking the questio, is he had done ; he had himself intended to ask a similar question of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He was glad the hon. and learned gentleman had put one also to the noble lord. He was not all satisfied with the posi tion in. which. the question of Reform stood at the present moment. The hon. gentlemen sitting below the gangway —the Radical party—were placed in a difficult position by the noble lord's amendment. It did not go far enough for them. (Hear, hear.) The SPEA KER stated that the hon. gentleman could not properly discuss a measure which was not before the house. Mr. COX • x - as sorry he was out of order. He would endeavour to steer clear of that difficulty. He would suppose that an amendment was moved to the second reading of th o bill, which, if carried, would have the effect—as they w ere t o ld it was i nten d e d that i t shou l d have the effect—of 'changing the sides of that house, (Laughter.) In that case he wished to know what the noble lord the member for Lon ion would do on the subject of the ballot. It would be filar ossible for those who sat below the gangway to assist the no ble lord in regaining the Treasury bench, unless they reel dyed some assurance that the ballot would be taken into cc ,nsideration in connexion with any measure of reform that was introduced. It was high time for the Radical party tc) tell the Whig leaders that they must not expect to make ;tools of them for the purpose of obtaining place, and then. when they had gained their object to use hon. gentlemen opposite in order to defeat the rinciples of tlios e who had brought them into power. Here the hon. gentleman, waxing very animated, acci entally struck the hon. member who sat on his right a blow on the nose, an incident which convulsed the house with laughter, and prevented him for several moments from continuing his remarks.] He could warn the noble lord that that was not a position in which the great Liberal party of this country would consent to be placed. The noble lord must not attempt to lie-ad the Liberal party unless he made up his mind to give them the ballot. The hon. member for Birmingham, in a speech he delivered a few years ago, said that if 50 sincere and la onest men in that house united to secure the ballot they hail the means in their power for obtaining it. The noble' lord ought to know that if there were not now 50 there w ere at least very nearly that num ber of hon. members in that house who were resolved on following the course thus shadowed out by the hon member for Birmingham. He wolald not further detain the house, but would simply conclude by asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, as al4 parties expressed a desire that a Reform Bill should pass, it would not be better to proceed by way of resolution, in order to frame a bill to carry such desire into effect ? THE CONCENTRATION OF THE LAW COURTS. Mr. HOPE asked the First Commissioner of Works whether her Majesty's Government purposed to take any steps for the concentration of the courts of law and equity, in pursuance of the recommendati9ns both of the Incorpo rated Law Society and of the Society for the Amendment of the Law ? He did not ask that question, he said, with any artistic view, but simply for the purpose of promoting the convenience of the legal profession. Great inconvenience existed from the present dispersed state of the courts of law and equity. Some were in Lincoln'.3-inn, some in West minster, and some at Guildhall ; and judges and barristers, solicitors and clerks, were continually scouring about the town in cabs and broughams. With a view to remedy that evil a scheme had been before the public for seine time for concentrating the law courts on a piece of ground of about seven acres in extent, situated near all the Inns of Court, and affording full accommodation for the administration of justice, both in law and equity. Petitions in favour of that scheme had been presented from the Incorporated Law So ciety, representing the solicitors and proctors, and from the Law Amendment Society, representing, under the presi dency of Lord Brougham, all the most eminent members of the bar. It appeared likewise that a certain fund, called the Suitors' Fund, might be made available for defraying the cost of such an undertaking, at least so far as the ac commodation of the courts of equity was concerned. Yet it was now proposed to rebuild the courts of equity within the precincts of Lincoln's-inn—a plan which, if carried out, would render impossible that concentration of the courts of law and equity from which such great advantages might fairly be expected. He trusted that the Government would not sanction any scheme which would have the effect of maintaining the courts in their present dispersed state, and that, at all events, no such step would be taken without the fullest inquiry and consideration. Lord J. MANNERS admitted that great convenience would result from the concentration of the law courts, but there was considerable difference of opinion among the most competent persons—first, as to whether the fund which the hon. member had referred to was sufficient for the purpose; and secondly, whether, such as it was, it could be applied to the reconstruction of the courts of law and equity. Under these circumstances the Government were not pre pared to take any steps. The subject was one which re quired investigation, and the only question was whether the inquiry should be made by a select committee or a Royal commission. At present he was unable to say more, but he would be glad on a future occasion to answer any question which the hon. member might put to him. THE REFORM BILL. Lord J. RUSSELL assured the hon. and learned mem ber for Sheffield that it was from no want of courtesy to' him that he did not immediately answer his question re specting the course which he intended to pursue on Mon day night. But it appeared to him that it would be com pletely out of order, and would not be for the public good to enter at the present moment into a discussion of the provi sions of the Reform i3lll, and of the amendment, which he intended to move upon the motion for the second reading of that measure. (Hear, hear.) Still more was he in disposed at such a time to consider the question whether in the event of his resolutions being carried, the Go vernment would advise her Majesty to dissolve the pre sent Parliament. That was too grave and important a ques tion to be discussed upon a moticn for the adjournment of the house from Friday to Monday. (Hear.) He could only say, therefore, that in his opinion the Government had taken a right course in submitting a bill upon the subject of the representation of the people, and he trusted to be able on Monday to satisfy the house that he was not wrong in moving a resolution as an amendment upon the motion for the second reading of their bill. (Hear, hear.) With re respect to the other statement of the hon. member for Fins bury, he could assure the hon. gentleman that he never should shrink from the question of the ballot whenever it should be brought forward. (Hear, hear.) He should be ready to give his vote on it in that house, and, if neces sary, he should be ready to address the house on the sub ject ; but he thought that the hon. gentleman, on reflection, would feel that it would be unbecoming in him to bargain with any party in that house for any object on earth (Cheers.) INDIA. Lord J. RUSSELL then proceeded to say, that having noticed the two speeches made on the important subject of Parliamentary Reform, he would pass on to the question of which he had given notice to the noble lord, the Secretary for India. It appeared from all the accounts which were received—and very gratifying they were—that the pacifi cation of Oude had been effected, that the only large body of mutineers which. remained, had gone into the kingdom of Nepaul, and that, generally speaking, the revolt had been put down throughout India. (Hear.) He therefore wished to know whether it was intended to ask that house to give a vote of thanks to the Governor-General of India, to the distinguished general in command of the troops, and to the other officers, civil and military, who assisted in the great and glorious event of the pacification of India ? (Cheers.) He would say further, that he should have left it entirely to the discretion of the Government to name the time at which they might think fit to propose the vote of thanks were it not for"certain papers which had been laid on the table of the house. (Hear, hear.) A copy of those papers he held in his hand, and they contained a copy of the answer of the Governor-General to the secret despatch. They contained the Governor-General's answer to the Court of Directors, and also the despatch of the noble lord oppo site, dated the 9th of December. He was not going now to revive the question of the wisdom of the proclamation issued by Lord Canning. He would admit, for the sake of argu- ment, that it was unwise to issue that proclamation,though that was not his opinion, but he owned that it appeared to him that after that matter was settled—after the Govern- went had sent out their opinion, and after Lord Canning in a very able despatch had At least shown that he had reason s for his conduct—(hear)--there were but two courses to pur. sue with respect to a man in the anxious position of the Go. vernor-General of India, charged, during a time of as grave an emergency as had ever happened, with immense respon sibility, at one time proposing measures, which did not in s eel with the approval of the Government at home, and al another time directing military operations which were not in conformity with the judgment of Lord Clyde, namely either to tell him that his judgment was erroneous, that he was unfit to carry on the government of India during this great emergency, and that some other person would be put in his place ; or else to treat him with confidence—(cheers) —and to show that that confidence was not niggardly be stowed. (Cheers.) It was with wonder that he (Lord J. Russell) had read the despatch of the 9th of December, which appeared, by its cold and sneering tone, to conv e y a _ _ _ _ _ distrust, which her Majesty's Ministers did not think fit, for some reason or other, openly to express. (Hear.) There- fore, that despatch had created a doubt whether it was the intention of the Government to do justice to Lord Canning for his high services, such as had never been surpassed, in the suppression of the mutiny. (Cheers.) He should be happy to find that he was mistaken in that suspicion, and that it was the intention of the Government to propose a vote of thanks to the Governor-General, to Lord Clyde, and to the other officers who had distinguished themselves in India. (Hear, hear.) With respect to Lord Clyde, no man be felt; f or no man i n a m ilit ary pos iti on h a d acted w i t h could entertain the least doubt that any diffi cu lt y wou ld greater vigour, decision, and iddgment ; and ho hoped that that gallant general might return and long wear in this Country the laurels he had gained in India. (Cheers.) Mr. KINNAIRD said that, as the dreadful events of the ninthly were over, there was a general expectation that some distinguished mark of merit would be given to Sir J. Lawrence. (Cheers.) The late Government of India actu ally made a provision fur any honour that might be conferred on that distinguished man, for they gave him a pension, and there would be a general feeling of disappointmen if the man who was considered the saviour of India had not some mark of favour from the Crown bestowed on him. (Hear.) Lord STANLEY assured the house that the Govern ment fully recognised the great services rendered by Sir J. was i m pli e d by th e speech of the hon. gentleman, L awren ce, but he could no t altogether admit what, if not stated, ( that no recornitionof those services hadtaken place. (Hear, hear.) He did not allude to the promotion of Sir J. Law / rence from the position of Commissioner -to that of Lieut.- / Governor, for the latter rank was only held for a brief period of tine, but Sir J. Lawrence had received the thanks of that house, a baronetcy, the Grand Cross of the Bath, a special pension of £2,000 a year, in addition to the pension to which he is entitled by right as a retired member of the civil service, and moreover, Sir J. Lawrence held a seat for life, if he he desired it, in the Council for India. (Hear, hear.) He hoped Sir J. Lawrence's career might be consi dered as closed, and that some future Government might, if that distinguished individual did not return to England, still avail themselves of his services in India. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the question put by the noble lord, he had to say that it was the intention of the Government to pro pose to that house a vote of thanks to those who, whether in a civil or military capacity, had taken a prominent part in the pacification of India. (Cheers.) In that vote both the Governor-General of India and Lord Glyde would be in cluded. The reason, the only reason why the vote of thanks was not proposed at the begging of the session was, because though at that time the pacification of India was obviously nearly accomplished, it was not absolutely effected, and the Government were anxious to have the opportunity of in cluding in the vote any exploit which might still seem. to deserve the thanks of Parliament. (Hear.) He confessed that he thought, if it were inconvenient to discuss the question of Parliamentary reform on the motion for the ad journment of the house, it was not less so to take that op portunity to discuss a matter fully debated last year, viz., the issue of Lord Canning's proclamation. (Hear, hear.) At the proper time he should be ready to vindicate the course taken by Government ; but he was not very much surprised that some political discussions which had taken place that evening should have recalled to mind the circum stances which attended the debate on the proclamation last year. (Laughter.) If ever that debate should be resumed, he believed it would be attended with the same result. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the general conduct of Lord Canning, as distinguished from that particular transaction, he did not think that the noble lord the member for the City of London could speak of him in stronger terms of ap proval than he had done, not only of late, but when that conduct was formerly under discussion in that house. With regard to the question of the hon. and gallant general re specting the artillery, as he had not received notice of it, he had not had an opportunity of ascertaining when the papers would be ready, but he would make inquiry on the point. Lord PALAIERSTON wished to say one word on that which had fallen from the noble lord in regard to the observations of his noble friend the member for the City of London. His noble friend did not revert to the de bate of last year, and did not advert to the po . licy of the Government in regard to India ; but he did make some observations on that which must strike with pain every man who read the document alluded to. (Hear, hear.) His noble friend observed on the taste and the feeling—to say no more—of that despatch, which the noble lord the Secretary for India thought it consistent with his duty to send to Lord Canning—(hear, hear)—and the noble lord must not be allowed to escape from those re marks by endeavouring to revert to the discussions of last year. (Hear, hear.) He deeply regretted that the noble lord should have thought it befitting his position as a Mi nister of the Crown to write a sneering, taunting, ironical despatch to Lord Canning, in answer to explanations which every man might read with admiration. (Cheers.) He would say nothing as to the concealment of those explana tions for many months during which they lay in the office of the noble lord. (Hear, hear.) At last they came out, and no man who read them could avoid feeling with respect to them sentiments very different from those expressed in the despatch of the noble lord opposite. (Cheers.) FOREIGN-OFFICE MESSENGERS. Mr. WISE asked how the £IO,OOO voted in the estimates for the Foreign-office messengers was disposed of ; what was the tenure of office of Queen's foreign service messenger; and what were the regulations which had been recently made with reference to the remuneration of that corps. The hon. gentleman made a long statement which was very imperfectly heard in the gallery, but the purport of which appeared to be that these officers were insufficiently remu nerated, and that the public service suffered in consequence. Some of them had been appointed many years ago on an assurance that their situations would be for life and that their clear income would be £4OO a year ; but it had now been reduced to £250. Under the old system the greater the amount of work these officers performed the greater was their remuneration; but now there was an, induce ment for them to do as little as possible.' Many of them were gentlemen who had given up their position in the army to accept these offices. When Lord Palmerston was in office he had caused an investigation to be made into the matter; and from inquiries made at all the Courts of Eur6pe it was ascertained that the expenses of out messengers did not exceed those of France, Russia, and other large States. The direct tendency of the new system was to discourage energy and activity. As the messengers were not allowed travelling expenses their salaries were not sufficient to support their families. The present arrangement was most unjust to the officers and in jurious to the public service. Out of salaries of £5OO or £525 these officers had to submit to income tax, superannuation allowances, and other deductions, besides their expenses, so that they had not more than £250 left. The plan of a fixed salary would never answer. There ought to be an allowance of at least £1 a day for travelling expenses. The messengers were sometimes so heavily burdened with despatches that they looked like agents of Pickford's. (A. laugh.) Mr. S. FITZGERALD could not give any assurance of an alteration in the system. The hon. gentleman complained at once of extravagance and of the officers being underpaid. He was desirous of giving the fullest information to the house, and would on Monday or Tuesday place papers on the table supplying all that information. The £40.000 referred to was expended in the payment of expenses of messengers and telegrams, the cost of which was rapidly increasing. By arrangements for decreasing the number of journeys to distant courts there would be a saving of .ElO,OOO or £12,000 a year. The Queen's foreign service messenger held his office during good behaviour, beinc , appointed under war rant by the Secretary of State. All the messengers now re ceived £525 a year in lieu of former allowances ; but there were extra payments for boat hire, &c. The papers to be produced would give the fullest information. The motion for adjournment to Monday was then agreed to. NOTICES OF MOTION. THE REFORM BILL.—Mr.' Riot, in committee on the Reform Bill, to move that in determining on the disfran chisement of smaller boroughs it was expedient that the mere amount of population within such boroughs should not alone be taken into account, but that the amount of direct taxation paid by such boroughs should also be considered. TROOPS IN THE COLONIES. —Sir A. AGNEW to move, on Monday next, in the event of a satisfactory answer not being -iven to the question of Mr. Maguire, a resolution to the effect that the troops in none of the colonies should be re quired to salute the host. RETURNS ORDERED. NATIONAL COLLECTIONS. -- On the motion of Mr. Spooner, returns showing the sums expended under the following heads in each year from 1846 to 1859, severally— British Museum Establishment, British Museum Buildings, British Museum Purchases, National Gallery, Scientific Works and Experiments, Royal Geographical Society, British Historical Portrait Gallery, Science and Art Depart ment, Museum of Practical Geology, and Royal Society; and, of the sums expended in the purchase and laying out of the grounds and in buildings on the Kensington Gore Estate, in each year from 1851 to 1858 inclusive (in con tinuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 313, of session 1857-8). DECIMAI. CURRENCY. Mr. BEAMISH asked when the report of the royal com missioners on decimal currency, appointed in 1855, was ex pected to be laid on the table? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he must express not only regret, but surprise, that this report had not been laid on the table. There were three commis sioners—Lord Monteagle, Mr. Hubbard, and Lord Over stone; and he was bound to say, in justice to the latter, that his report was prepared, and was quite ready to be laid on the table. He trusted that the inquiry of the hon. member might lead to the early production of the reports of the other members of the commission. HARBOUR MASTERS OF THE THAMES. Alderman SALOMONS asked if the Board of Trade had received information from the conservancy board of the river Thames as to the removal of the harbour-master's office from the river side at East Greenwich to an office at Tower-hill ; and if so, on what grounds of public conveni ence such removal had been determined ? Lord LOVAINE said that no official information had been received by the Board of Trade on this subject. He understood that there were two harbour-masters, the duties of one of whom bad been transferred to another office ; and hence the removal of the office. CHICHESTER HARBOUR General CODRINGTON wished to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the public objection of the Admi ralty to the embankment of Chichester harbour, as notified to this house on 14th February last, had been removed ; if so, on what grounds,„ and whether he could lay on the table of the house the written consent of the board ? Mr. CORRY said the Admiralty had the strongest ob jection to the proposal, and it would be his duty to oppose it on the next stage of the bill. THE, CASE OF MR. BARBER. In reply to Mr. BRADY, Sir S. NORTHCOTE said the Government had the case of Mr. Barber under consideration for a considerable time, Mind found great difficulty in dealing with it. In the first - place, they felt that it would be wrong to lay down a prece dent that might prove injurious in similar eases. But on the other hand, as Mr. Barber's case had been considered by a committee which made aunanimous report in his favour, the Government, after weighing various suggestions, thought the best course to adopt was to propose a vote of money for Mr. Barber in the estimates, not by way of com pensation for what he had suffered, but as some acknow ledgment that he had suffered considerably. WEST INDIAN IMMIGRATION. On the motion of Mr. BUXTON the following returns wore ordered :—Returns up to the present date, of all loans made by the British Government, or guaranteed by it to the seve ral West Indian colon 4, British Guiana, and Mauritius, for immigration purpogrs, and of any amounts which the colonies have repaid on account of such loans, distinguish ing the sums loaned or guaranteed to or repaid by each colony; and of the amount each of those several colonies has voted for immigration purposes, specifying the amounts paid for importation and for back passage. SUPERANNUATION BILL. On the motion for (voing into comm itt ee on thi s bill , Sir S. NORTIICOTE said that as set, oral hon. gentle men had put questions to him with regard to this bill, it would perhaps save time if he were to make a short state ment previous to the house going into committee Th e Su perannuation Act of 1834 was based upon this principle, that it laid down a scale of superannuation allowance to be granted to officers who belonged to departments named in a certain schedule appended to the act: There was' a provi sion in the act which enabled the Treasury to bring new departments within the terms of the act, and several de parttnents had been brought within its provisions. The act of 1834 also contained a clause which made it necessary for officers, before they could become entitled to the benefit of superannuation, to pay 5 per cent, and 21 per eent.• towards the expenses of their own superannuation, and in consequence of the reluctance of officers to pay that deduc tion, a considerable number of them had not been browlit within the act.' When these offieera came to retire, air were not st r i c tl y ent i t l e d t o compensa ti on , it w that g felt ey it would be h ar d t o exclude officers who had though they aad o s u ser ved Jong and faithfully from the benefit of the MARCH 19, 1859. allowance. Accordingly a superannuation was allowed them, but considerable confusion arose from this state of things. The system of abatements had given rise to considerable objection, and created a great deal of excite ment in the house and in the country. His rigbt hon. friend the member for Radnor brought in a bill on the sub ject. That bill did not pass, and the subject was then re ferred to a royal commission. The measure introduced by the late Government last session and the present bill were founded on the recommendations of that committee. The main point on which the bill differed from the act of 1834 was this, that whereas the act of 1834 gave superannuation to the oficers named in the schedule of the act, this bill pro posed to give superannuation to all civil servants. It ap peared to him to be more suitable to make no distinction than to schedule the officers who should be entitled to superannuation. All civil servants, therefore, would be entitled to superannuation, except those who were provided for by Acts of Parliament, such as the judges, the sheriff depute of Scotland, and others similarly circumstanced. There was another exception with regard to those who were provided for by "order in council." But he proposed to strike out the words "or by order in council." These words applied to the men in the dockyards, with regard to whom a good deal of confusion existed, in consequence of the variety of employments. There were some persons in the dockyards who were entitled to the full amount of super annuation under the act of 1834. There were others who were entitled to superannuation, but on a scale of lower amount than was allowed by the act of 1834. Below these were another class who were paid a superannuation of £24, and £3l, according to the nature of the employment. Others were not entitled at all.. He proposed that all should be equally entitled to compensation. But there were a class of workmen who were not permanently but merely temporally employed in the dockyards. And at that point they drew the line, because it was not con sidered that they came within the intention or spirit of the superannuation system. There was another large class of civil servants whose case had been brought before the house, the officers of the Post-office. The Post-office was one of the departments included in the act of 1834, and therefore one would suppose that all the officers would be entitled to superannuation. But those only who were employed in the metropolitan offices were so entitled. Those employed in the country—and the country included such places as Manchester and Liverpool, where the duties were as important and as onerous as in the metropolis—were ex cluded from the benefit of the superannuation. The letter carriers in London were also entitled to superannuation, but those in the country were not. He proposed to put them all on the same footing, making the same distinction between persons who were permanently employed and those who were only temporarily employed, as was made with regard to the workmen in the dockyards. It was one of the condi tions of title to tuperrannuation that the money should be paid out of the imperial funds. Applications had been made by officers employed in prisons and in workhouses and others to have the benefit of superannuation applied to them. It might be very proper and desirable that there should be a superannuation provided for this class of officers out of the funds from which they were paid, but their position was so distinct from that of the persons who were paid from impe rial funds, that they could not be dealt with in this bill. For the same reason the bill would not apply to those per sons who were paid by fees. He had been asked whether the bill would apply to such persons as the procurators fiscal and judges' clerks. It would not, because those persons were liable to be dismissed at the pleasure of others, and not of the Crown. If this class of persons were allowed the benefit of superannuation it might open a door to abuse. He begged pardon of the house for entering so much into details, but he was speaking as much for the country as for the house—there being a great number of persons who were anxious to know how they would be dealt with by the bill. (Hear.) He thought he had now stated enough with regard to the main principle on which th e y p ro p ose d t o d e fi ne w h o were civil servants. The hon. member for Evesham asked him if he could state what expense the bill would occasion. That was an important question, and he was not in a posi tion to give a very satisfactory answer to it. It was so much a matter of conjecture, that he felt it impossible to give an answer. (Hear, hear.) There were three ways in which expense might be occasioned by the bill. First, there was the new scale of pensions, as compared with the former scale. The former scale of pensions was a jumping one, allowing so much for seven years' service, so much for 14 years, and so on. The present bill was a sliding scale, ad vancing so much year by year, and s t opp i ng at two-thirds of the salary. To those who retired after 24 years' service the proposed scale would give a somewhat higher remune ration than was given under the Act, of 1834. If persons retired before 21 years' service, there would be a saving under the present scale. But to get at the average expense was a very difficult matter indeed. But, speaking generally, if the scale was to be applied to exactly the same class of persons—and those only—as were included in the Act of 1834, the difference of expense would be very slight indeed. The proposed scale was a better and more economical one for the public in this respect, that it would discourage per sons from coming into the service and leaving it after a short period. Secondly, bringing in new classes might add to the expense of the superannuation fund ; but to what extent it would do so would entirely depend on the number of persons who were brought in. On that point he found it !difficult to arrive at any kind of conclusion. For instance, it would appear from a customs return that 2,000 new persons would be entitled to pensions under the new arrangement who were not entitled before. He did not believe that was pos sible. And on inquiring of Sir Thos. Fremantle he found that a large proportion of these 2,000 were persons who were placed on establishment as temporary officers. No doubt many of these would be taken on the permanent establish ment, in which case they would become entitled to pensions, and their temporary services would be counted in their favour. The same observation applied to the dockyard offi cers. From the post aiffice a very large number of pers ons would be added to those who were entitld to superannuation. There was a third way in which the bill would add to some extent to the expense, and that was that it gave superannua tion to all those who retired at.the age of 60, and made it compulsory on all those who reached the age of 65 to retire unless they got special permission to remain on account of their being able efficiently to perform their duties. The number of such persons would be very inconsiderable. By the return of the Civil Service Commissioners they would not be more than 300, and by the return which he received they would be only 120, so that the number paid off in that way would not be large. As it was felt to be desirable that the superannuation should not apply to any persons but those who were bona fide civil servants, a rule was laid down declaring that no person was to be d eeme d a c i v il servant unless he held his appointment directly from the Crown, or was admitted with a certificate from the Civil Service Com missioners. Ho believed that by taking care that none but persons who were compet en t, i n good halth, and who were under a certain age, were admitted into the service, and treating them in a fair and equitable spirit, in conformity with a rule easily understood, they would not only have made a great step towards the allaying of that uncomfortable and excited state of feeling which existed amongst the civil servants at present, but also have done much for the permanent improvement of the service itself. (Hear.j With regard to the retirement at the age of 65, that would not be such a hardship on the civil servants as was repre sented. By the scale in operation before 1829 a man was entitled to retire on his full salary after fifty years' service ; but by the act of 1834 no man, no matter what his length of service, could receive a retiring allowance of more than two-thirds. The result of this was completely to clog the upper part of the offices. Officers, having no in ducement to retire, remained after they were past their work, and the younger men, who in reality did the duty, were discouraged and kept back. That was the reason why an arbitrary rule was adopted ; and, after all, a man of 65, after forty years' service, ought not to object to retire. One objection to the compulsory retirement was, that it would throw a great deal of patronage into the hands of the Government. With regard to the great mass of offices, they would have no opportunity of jobbing, as the next in seniority would fill the vacancy. But there was another class of offices to which the objection might apply ; he referred to such offices as those'of the Commissioners of Customs, to which men were 'appointed direct who had not risen from the ranks. To meet the objection, he proposed to exclude all officers of this class from the compulsory retirement. He would be ready in committee to give any further explanation that might be required, and he begged to move that the bill be committed. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY complained of the course pur sued with regard to this bill, that it had been read a second time at Et'very late hour. He considered that, in justice to the tax-payers, the scale of salaries ought to be revised, and he begged to move the resol u ti on o f w hi ch he had given notice :—" That all deductions from salaries, in order to form a fund for superannuations, having been abolished, it is not expedient to add to the amount of public charge by an increase in the scale of superannuation.' Mr. GLADSTONE considered that the bill raised some very serious questions. In the first place he thought his hon. friend the Secretary for the Treasury made a large de mand on the house when he asked them to be satisfied to proceed to erect a system of pensions and superannuations on a new basis without knowing what classes would fall within its purview, or what the probable additional charge would be. He knew the difficulty which 'even a Government department would find in obtaining correct information, but still the house ought to have the best estimate the Government could afford, and until it was given the house would not be justified in proceeding to erect a new system. He inferred from the statement of his honourable friend that the information was not supplied, not because it could not be given, but because the communications between the Treasury and the different departments on the subject were not complete. He would not protest against going into com mittee, but he must say the house would not bejustifiecl in assenting to the second reading until they had full and com plete Information on these points. The house ought to be clearly aware of what they were doing. They were not entitling to-day what would come into operation to-mor row, and might be altered the day after. They were esta blishing a system which would not take full effect for thirty or forty years, and entering into engagements which must be scrupulously kept, oven if they extended to half a century. This made it necessary they should have full in formation. He feared his hon. friend was inclined to too great liberality; he seemed scandalised at what he called an anomaly in the Post-office, that*the London letter-carriers should be entitled to a superannuation whilst those in the country were not, It might be that in some large towns the men were in the same position as those in London, who were constantly on their legs, and gave their whole time to the duty; but the great majority of' the country letter- car riers were men with other avocations, who merely devoted a couple of hours a day to the work, and had no claim to superannuation. • His hon. friend proposed to introduce a clause defining the limits of the civil service ; but as it stood he did not consider it all satisfactory. The system of the Civil Service CoMmission was quite new, and the ambiguity of the clause only confirmed his opinion that it was wrong to depart from the system of the old acts, where the officers entitled to the superannuation were always set out in the schedule. The recommondation of the committee that the salaries should be revised seemed to have been entirely for gotten. It was not true that the civil servants wore illi berally or insufficiently paid. They could not contend that as a body they were unpaid, and it was not just to the tax payers that they should got a wholesale increase without the slightest r&roneo to their duties. He hoped they would have some declaration from the Government as to what classes it was intended to bring within the provlsjo ns of the act ; and also that before they precood.d to the second reading they would have an estimate of the probable addi tional c:zponse. It also most desirable to know whe. ther it was intended to follow up the recommendation chile committee, and reconsider the rates of salarieA. The abo lition of the deduction had given them a sweeping whole sale rise, totally irrespective of their merits and duties, or the respective facts o their respective cases. Mr. WILLIAMS thought the house ought not to pro ceed with the bill until it got some further information. He agreed that the salaries of the etvil servants ou g ht t o b e revised. le - H iger houde woul snggest that th e y s h ou l d be made to wort hours. (No, no.) They now only worke4 six hours a day, and he thought that if they were xo,de to work eight it would do them a great dPRI Mr. WILSON knew by eXIIPTiPiIee how difficult it would be fur the Seol'o4l7 a 0;6 'treasury to give any estimate of dinbur prpliable ad ditronal charge. In London, Dublin, aucl Egh, the former had always been entitled to pensions, and he did not see how a distinetielA c.ovi)d be permanently maintained 'between 142,0 - Vin•es and such places as Liverpool Mitpeliggter anti 44eeds No one would contend that the post-office at Glasgow was not equally important with the post-office at Edinburgh. Where, then, were they to draw the line ? Was this sore to be left open for ever? (Hear.) A large proportion of the public servants died, he regretted to say, without having attained the age for retirement, and he did not be lieve the bill would add more than 12 or 13 per cent. to the amount already paid which was about £lOO,OOO. Colonel SYKES thought that as the higher public ser vants were provided with pensions the lower ought to have the same advantage. The increase of ten or twelve thou sand a year was nothing, compared with the importance of increasing the good will of the large body of public servants whose interests were involved in the passing of this bill. Mr. E. ELLICE (Coventry) regarded the bill as a mere corollary to the abolition of the system of abatements. He thought the scale of superannuation now proposed was pre ferable to the old scale, because it reduced the allowances of those who retired early, and increased the allowances of those who retired at an advanced period of life. Sir G. C. LEWI S was willing to accept the consequence of the decision of the house with regard to abatements ; but, while he approved of the scale now proposed, in so far as it converted the septennial arrangement into annual payments, he saw no reason why the scale of allowances fixed at pre sent should be increased. If he thought the effect of pass ing this bill would be substantially to increase the scale of payments he should vote for the amendment. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not think the effect of passing the bill would be substantially to increase the scale of payments. No doubt there would be some slight increase, but that had not beenoccasioned by any wish to increase the payments. The scale now proposed was that recommended by a committee of that house and by a royal commission, a n d th e reason w h y t h ere was a slight in creasein a portion of it was that the scale had been formed withthe view of securing that annual progression which had been thought desirable. Generally speaking, this bill only legalised what was before the practice of the Treasury, a practice which was adopted in order to correct inequalities in the existing scale. The right hon. gentleman the mem ber for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone) was mis taken in supposing that the communications between the Treasury and the other public offices were not complete. They were complete, and the principle had been established that those who were to receive superannuation allowances must have passed through an examination by the Civil Service Commissioners. The hon. baronet who proposed this amendment had endeavoured to alarm the house by speaking of the immense number of persons who would receive superannuation allowances if the bill became law. There might be an apparent increase from 16,000 to 30,000, but this would be owing to the fact that there were included in the bill a large number of persons who before received pensions from other sources. The actual increase caused by the bill would not, he believed, exceed from 6,000 to 8,000 persons, and this addition would be subject to the con • trol of the Treasury, which would be a sufficient check upon abuse. The right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford expressed a hope that before the dis cussion closed the Government would give the house infor mation on three points ; first, as to the class of persons whom they proposed to bring under the operation of the bill ; secondly, as to whether they intended to revise the public salaries; thirdly, as to what was their estimate of the increased charge which the bill would impose on the country. With regard to the first point, he would observe that all those who were included in the schedule of the existing act, and all who had been added since, such as the Poor law Commissioners, the officers connected with the edu cation department, and others would come under the pro visions of this bill; and to these must be added the two classes of public servants who had been so frequently re ferred to in the debate, namely, those connected with the dockyards and those connected with the Post-office. With regard to the second point, he would refer to the opinion of the Royal Commissioners. Those commissioners thought that a revision of public salaries would be impracticable, and was not desirable ; they gave their reasons for arriving at that conclusion, and the Government concurred in their opinion. On the third point, that which related to the increased charge which the bill would throw on the country, it would be presumption in him to add anything to what had fallen from the hen. member for Devonport (Mr. J. Wilson). He believed that the hon. gentleman's estimate was well founded, and that the increased expenditure would be rather under than over what he had calculated. Supposing that to be the case, would the house hesitate for a moment to pass a bill which was founded on principles of policy and justice, which had long been required, and fairly required, by the public, and which, after a considerable amount of controversy, seemed likely to lead to a satisfac tory settlement of the question ? (Cheers.) The house then divided, when there appeared : Ayes l3l Noes 29-102 The house then went into committee. Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to. On clause 3, Colonel NORTH remarked that under it perrons who had arrived at the age of 65, though they might be hale and hearty, were obliged to retire, which might be a great loss to them. The clause was agreed to. Clause 4 was also agreed to, with the following amend ment proposed by Sir S. NORTHCOTE, providing that " in respect of such office or class of offices, the holder may be entitled to superannuation, though he may not he hold his appointment directly from the Crown, and may not have entered the service with a certificate from the Civil Service Commissioners." On clause 7, Sir F. BARING proposed to omit "ten years," and to in•ert the words, "the number of years he has actually ser ved." The effect of the clause as it stood would be, that persons who were discharged from inefficiency would be in a better position than those who were kept in the service. Sir S. NORTHCOTE said the object of the clause was to give facilities for getting rid of unnecessary clerks. The committee divided— For the amendment Against it l6l-73 The clause was then agreed to. Clause 8 being objected to by Sir F. BARING, was struck out. On clause 11, Sir F. BARING censured the principle of allowing civil servants, when they attained the age of 60, to retire if they pleased, although they might still bo podeotly able to dis charge the duties of their situation. Sir S. NORTHCOTE said that they already practically possessed this privilege at the age of 65, an d th e c l ause on l y reduced the ag e t o 60. Not to allow the right of retirement at advanced age only caused a resort to loosely worded medical certificaces. (Hear, hear.) Mr. MONSELL said that at present persons 65 years of age had the right to retire. This bill would place persons of 60 in the same position. Now many persons from 60 to 65 were the most efficient public servants, and as the pre sent system had worked well, he did not see why it should be altered. Sir G. C. LEWIS said the proposed alteration would add considerably to the burdens of the country, and as he did not see any reason for the change, he would move that the age of 65 be substituted for the age of 60. Sir S. NORTHCOTE defended the clause. After a few words from Mr. MILES and Colonel NORTH, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that according to the present system the public had the benefit of 40 years' service from public servants. In the civil ser vice of France persons were allowed to retire at 55 years of age. He trusted the committee would agree to the clause. After a few remarks from Mr. Wilson, Mr. Salisbury, and Mr. Malins, the committee divided. The numbers were— For the amendment Against it 156 Majority --56 Clause 11 was then agreed to. Clause 12 passed without remark. On clause 13, which provides exemptions from compul sory retirement at the age of 65, including judicial officers and others appointed late in life, Sir S. NORTHCOTE proposed to include all officers appointed by order or warrant of the Treasury. After a conversation, The amendment was withdrawn, on the understanding that a proviso should be introduced at a future stage. Mr. STUART moved that the operation of the clause should bo deferred for three years from the Ist of January next. After a few words more it was agreed that clause 13 should be postponed., On clause 14 Mr. BovILL moved an amendment, which was agreed to, providing for the case of a person trans ferred from one office to another ; but another amendment of his, providing for the case of a renewal of public em ployment, was not persisted in. A slight amendment was made by Mr. Rim in clause 15, and the other clauses, as far as clause 20, were agreed to. Sir S. NORTHCOTB said he had a clause to add, that no person should be deemed to be in the civil service of the state, or entitled to superannuation allowance, unless he held his appointment direct from the Crown, or had his salary provided out of the Imperial funds. This clause, however, was postponed. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the house resumed. The Highways Bill, East India Loan Bill, Title to Landed Estates Bill, Registry of Landed Estates Bill, Registry of Births in Ireland Bill, and Markets in Ireland Bill were successively postponed. The Sale of Poisons Bill went pro forma through com • mitto. The Consolidated Fund Bills, £1,222,389, and the other, £11,000,000, went throngh committee. NOTTINGHAM CHARITIES BILL. This bill was read a second time. ECTON 'AND WELTON EXCHANGE BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. PETITIONS OF RIGHT BILL. This bill passed through committee. AFFIDAVITS BY COMMISSION BILL. This bill passed through committee. NEWSPAPERS BILL. Mr. AYRTON wished to know if the Government ob. jetted to this bill, because if they did he would fix the cornmitiee for some other day ? Mr. CAIRNS said he referred to the acts intended to be repealed. The Government had no objection to the repeal of the first three acts, so far as they related to newspapers. Nit with regard to the 6th and 7th of Will. IV., and the 2d and 3d of Vic., which required the registration of the pro prietors of newspapers at Somerset-house, the Government thought those acts oug ht not to be repealed. Mr. AYRTON said that under these circumstonces he should postpone the committee till the 6th April. MILITARY ORGANISATION. Captain VIVIAN moved that the following members should constit u t e th e committee on military organisation : Viscount Pahnerston, Lord John Russell, Lord Hotham, Sir James Graham, the Judge-Advocate, Mr. Edward Moo, Mr. Sidney Herbert, Mr. Walpole Mr. Horsman, Sir John Ramsden, Sir William Codrington,' Mr. Monsell, Colonel * William Patten, the Earl o f March and Captain Vivian, Power to send for persons, papers, and records ; five' to be the quorum. Mr. MA.CARTNEY objected to the constitution of the committee on the ground that a majority was taken from one side of the house, besides which two of the members would probably be examined b e f ore th e comm i ttee. Lord A. V. TEMPEST also objected to the composition of the committee. There was not enough of military men on the committee. Captain VIVIAN said he had no party object whatever in view in proposing the committee or in selecting the names, Oexteral PEEL said he had no objection to the composi tion of the committee. The committee, as proposed, was then appointed. PUBLIC CONTRACTS. lanai BOLDERO moved for a select committee to in quire into the principle adopted for making contracts for the public' departments, and the effect which the present system has upon the expenditure of public money. Agreed to. TITLES TO LAND. bill to extend certain provisions of the On tho motion of the LORD ADVOCATE leave was o o b i f i i in ng ( n Sc a otland) Act, MS, to titles to land held by & ` 4 llre ll s t t bur , ge tenure and to amend the said act. b it THE BRITISH IMJSEITAL M. GREGORY moved that a. select committee be Iv.: pointed to inquire how far, and in what way, it may be desirable to find increased space for the extension and arrangement of the various collectionS of the British Mu seum, and the means of rendering them available for the promotion of science and art. Sir . G. C. LEWIS wished that there should be some un derstanding as to the objects of the inquiry ; as the motion stood, there was no limit to the extent to which the inquiry might be carried. Mr. GLADSTONE expressed a similar opinion, and sug gested that the latter words, " and the best means of ren dering them available for the promotion of science and art," be omitted. He begged to move that these words be struck out. Mr. GREGORY could not assent to the amendment'; the wording of th e mo ti on h a d b een approved of by the Home Secretary. The public was determined there should be an inquiry to ascertain whether the Museum could not be made available for instruction as well as exhibition. He considered the motion, as it stood, fully carried out the un derstanding come to on the previous evening. Sir G. C. LEWIS suggested that the words objected to should be struck out and others inserted ; so it would stand "render them available for purposes of instruction." The proposal of the hon. gentleman would create a total revolu tion in the arrangement, objects, and character of the Museum. The present officials were chosen totally irre spective of any purpose of teaching ; there were no rooms for lectures in the institution, and the alterations which would be necessary to fit it up as a university would involve a large expense. • Mr. SOTIIERON ESTCOURT said the terms of the motion had been approved of by the Chancellor of the Ex chequer and himself, and, in his opinion, they fully carried out the understanding come to on the previous evening, and the vagueness of the words of the reference were intended to meet the various views then urged. Mr. STIRLING asked whether the opinion of the trus tees had been taken on the terms of this reference ? Mr. SOTHERON ESTCOURT answered in the ne gative. He understood that the subject of the trust was not at all invol% ed in the inquiry. After a few words from Mr. KINNAIRD The house divided on th e question that' the words pro posed to be left out stand part of the question. The numbers were— Ayes 21 Noes 2-19 Forty members not being present, ail house at once ad journed,ll at half-past one. • • A SCENE IN EXETER-HALL. A meeting was held on Wednesday in the Lower room, Exeter-hall, for the purpose of considering the dangerous tendencies of the newßoman Catholic Oaths Bill, and to frame petitions to Parliament against it. - JOHN BINGHAM, Esq., having been called to the chair, in a brief speech introduced The Rev. Mr. M`CARTHY to move the following resolution : " That, as a bill has been laid before Parliament and read a second time in the House of Commons, intended to make an encroachment on the securities contained in the act of 1829, for the maintenance and preservation of the Protes tant Government and religion of the country, by altering the oath to be taken by Roman Catholic members of the Legislature; it is the opinion of this meeting, that a petition should be adopted to the House of Commons, deprecating any change whatever in the said oath." Mr. HARPER, in seconding the resolution, dwelt at some length upon the encroaching tendency of the measure upon Protestant rights. He said, let the Pope trust to Austria and other nations, who kept him in his position by their bayonets. Let the King of Naples be ashamed of himself, and hold down his head when he heard the shouts with which the exiles had been received upon the shores of Ireland. He concluded by reading a copy of a petition to be sent to Parliament. A GENTLEMAN in the body of the hall here got up, and said he begged to propose an amendment. Before doing so, he would announce to them that his name was Tresham Gregg, and that he was a beneficed clergyman. He approved of the wording of the resolution and petition- Mr. HARPER—Mr. Chairman, I call to order. Mr. Gregg says he has an amendment to propose; and yet he says he approves of the resolution and petition. Beware, gentlemen, of what Mr. Gregg says, for he is a traitor to our cause. A scene of great confusion here ensued, in which, in the midst of shouting and hooting, Mr. Gregg called upon the chairman to hear him, and protect him from the attacks of Mr. Harper, and Mr. Harper, in turn, called upon the chairman to order the police, who by this time had entered the hall, to turn Mr. Gregg out. CHAIRMAN—Mr. Gregg, if you are not quiet the police must turn you out. Mr. GREGG—I dare them to touch me. CHAIRMAN—What for ? MR. GREGG (who by this time had, along with several other parties, mounted over the chairs and reporters' table on to the platform)—l will make them answerable to the laws of their country. (Great uproar.) The Rev. Mr. MTARTHY—Dont't hear him; he is treacherous to us. (Groans, hisses, and cheers.) -Mr. GREGG—Is not this too bad, to be charged with falsehood and treachery ? The CHAIRMAN then called upon the police to remove Mr. Gregg, and they not complying with his request, he said to that individual, " If you do not sit down forthwith T will turn you out myself." (Great uproar.) Mr. GREGG—Then I will put the matter in my attorney's hands. The scene that here ensued beggars all descrip tion; an uproarious audience in a "penny gar could not have been worse. All further attempts to hear anything more were fruitless. People were struggling to get on t o th e p l a tf orm, t h e occupants of which endeavoured to keep them off, and the cheering, hooting, and hissing were carried on to the very echo. At last the meeting, as the chair man said, was dissolved, or put an end to, in some way or other, but how .we do not know, as the re porters for their own safety had quitted the scene of confusion. • • • COUNTRY' MARKET 3. LIVERPOOL_IIARcH 18. We' had an average attendance of country millers and dealers at our corn exchange this morning, and a good inquiry was experienced for all useful qualities of wheat. Holders, however, were not inclined to make any concession, which checked business. Fleur dull of sale, and there is no alteration in value. Indian corn little dealt in, and pre vious quotations may be nominally repeated. Oats and oatmeal difficult to move. Egyptian beans, peas, and bar • ley each held firmly. WAKEFIELD—MAncx 18. Moderate supplies of grain froin the coast and by railway this week. The wheat trade is firm to-day, and the busi ness done was Pre4y fair, at fully last week's prices. Fine barley in better reqUest but beans and other articles a slow sale. Wheat, per qr. of 8 bUsheli 601 b.; Essex, Suffolk, and Kent, white, old, 47s to 50S; new 46s to 495; ditto, red, old, 40s to 43 8; new , 40i 't o 4 2 8 ; Lincolnshire and York shire white, new, 40s to . 45s ; red, 37s to 395. Averages for the week : Wheat 1,961 qrs., at 40s 111 d 8ar1ey......." , 743 , ----' • 357 21-d _ Oats 378 „ 24s 2d ' Rye » —s Od Beans lB9 ~ 43s Icl Peas EXETER—MARCH 18. An average attendance. Many of the samples were in better condition, and at an improvement in prices. Wheat, white 58 Od to 58 2d I Barley. 4s Od to 4s 31 Ditto red 4 s 9d t o 5 s Od f Oats ....... 2s 10d to 3s Od Flour, fine, 30s to 31s ; seconds, 27s to .28s per sack. CATTLE —The market was fairly supplied with stock. The attendance of farmers good. Pork carcases a largo supply. Fat beef, p score,losod to lls Ewes, per lb' to Gid Pork carcases, do 780 d to 8 s Od WetherB, d 0...... ?id to Od Lambs, per lb .. Od to Od Fat calves, d0....5d to Gd Rough fat, &id per lb. BRISTOL SUGAR--MARcH 16. The market continues without animation—indeed, there is, if anything rather less disposition shown to purchase, and all descriptions must be quoted lower. The sales on the spot are limited to about 200 hhds.' West India, chiefly crystals ; and to arrive, two cargoes of 'Brazils, 8,500 bags and a cargo of 1,100 boxes Havannahs are reported at fully 6d decline. Refined dull for all descriptions, although lower prices have been accepted. In rum there was nothing doing. BIRTHS. CARR.—On the 16th inst., at Bedford-park, Croydon, the wife of W. J. Carr, Esq., of a Nan. . CLUTLERBUCK.—On the .17th inst., at Portishead, near Bristol, the wife wife of Lieutenant-Col. Clutterbuck, of a son. DAVY.—On the 17th inst., at 3, Marlborough-hill Villas, St. John's-wood, the wife of Henry Davy, Esq., of a son. GouLD.--On the 18th inst., at 'Winterlow-place, Vassall road, Brixton, the wife of Mr. Charles A. Gould, of a son. MARRIAGES EWART—JowNsoN.—On the 15th inst., at Wytham-on the-hill, John William Cheney Ewart, Esq., o f Ketton hall, Rutland, to Jane Anna Lucy, the eldest daughter of Lieutenant-General Johnson, of Wytham-hall, county of Lincoln. HILL—BURGESS. —On the 17th at St. George's, Ramsgate, Charles Thomas Hill, of H.M.'s Customs, London, to Jane, second daughter of George Burgess, Esq, M.A., of that place. - . DEATHS. BENIETT. — On the 16th inst , in the Close, Salisbury, Jas. Bennett, Esq., aged 61. BUUNEY.—On the 17th inst., at Eastbourne, Fanny Cosby, child of the Rev. Charles Burney, vicar of Halstead, aged 11. BLISSET.—On the 16th inst., at Freeman House, Clifton, Charles Blissett, Esq., aged 46. COLLINS.—On the 17th inst., at 10, Westbourne• terrace, Barnsbury-park, Islington, Mr, James Collins, of Jewin street, city, aged 77. DixoN.—On the 31st Jan., at the General Camp, Barowli, Oude, from wounds received in pursuit of the rebels, Kennett Dixon, late second in command of the Mooltanee Horse, aged 23. Rucic.—On the 18th inst., at Montague-terrace, Tun bridge-wells, John Ruck, Esq., formerly of St Dunstan's bill, London, aged 80. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy; in the county of Middlesex, Saturday, March 19, 1859. M F GUI John D: Francis Sir W. M.P. Sir Wat Thomso John If John La John L( Stewart Lewis I Thoma LIFE ACT OF anrers F or a Lot The n( When all least on( the Prof At the total R exceedo At the force am Life Bra surance 41,700,0( FORE Eatt an( parts of reduced. INVA health at Premion LOA IS values, r dent tin ASSI( Ceived MEDI Will be n Notice Lady Da or with stall, or dom, oti: Lossefi Compan: HAr the Patr and aft( for Tick( Number( Imme( Exeter i.,ON 4-4 CI: LAND-1 This n the SAI The I General saent Ito Several( THE „, tient, P but&le: fection The cele Plays a and moi closh M. pack Thursch ARC evening . , that gr Leader, a-piston artistes. ling - nen Itanager ten mini N.B.— tc Rooms. 1.10" PAL A( Last brated appeare It cann( The cell of beau Pit, 11 Gallery Two P.m. E PP L (breed s been ad princip aornceoi ( TR AT] licious cent. Hassid] the Tre Rin V sent, fn ECC (e( SIIER' 245. pet Dozens Import Wished HE Dozen. HEN per Ga HEN Strong Dozen. Pack la. per Paid. Coui Gray's T H Mklir Dr. him u his br SOR place DOTOII .....--. _. Life Leant D' Jtul on D( Diets their and c gprin 100 C Sr Th Trea for, Cone infl mil tre jun ral bee