The Sun. — London, England, 1860-07-28 00:00:00

to volunteer into the second battalion of the 14th Regiment, BO as to raise it to 1,400 men. VOTE FOR FORTIFICATIONS. Sir F. GOLDSMID asked the Secretary of State for War whether he could, on or before Monday, lay upon the table a statement specifying the works towards which the £2,000,000 proposed to be voted for fortifications are to be applied, and showing the probable cost of completing each work. He wished to know why the house was called upon to depart from its ordinary course of going into committee of supply, and voting this money upon estimates. The difficulty appeared to him to be greater, because this vote of £2,000,000 applied to part only of the money that was required, the rest being included in a lump sum, which was intended to be voted in that committee as soon as the necessary ways and means were provided. It was important that this sum should only be voted after a proper estimate, which ought to state the sum proposed to be expended in the current year, and the total amount required. It might be thought that the report of the De fences Commission stood in the place of an estimate; but this was not so. The statements of Lord Palmerston and Mr. S. Herbert showed that different works were contem plated. The SPEAKER--The hon. member is really travelling too much beyond the ordinary limits of these discussions ; the matter must come before the house—a day is appointed for the discussion, and the hon. member will then have the opportunity of expressing his views. Sir F. GOLESMID said he would simply refer to the statements made on Monday night by the noble lord and the right hon. gentleman. The SPEAKER—I must remind the hon. gentleman that he has no right to refer, on this occasion, to statements made in another debate. Sir F. GOLDSMID said he would simply ask the ques tion of which he had given notice—whether the Secretary for War could, on or before Monday, Jay before the house an estimate of the works for which the vote of two millions was proposed, and the probable cost of completing such works. Mr. S. HERBERT said that if the vote for fortifications had been proposed in committee of supply, the expenditure must have been limited to the period ending on the 31st of March next; but by taking the vote as proposed they would have the advantage of carrying on the works during the whole of next summer. He had already drawn up such a statement as the hon. baronet asked for ; it had been laid on the table of the house ; And he believed that it would be in the hands of members to-morrow. THE LANDING PIER AT HOLYHEAD. Mr. LEFROY called attention to the present state of the landing pier at Holyhead, and asked if the temporary ar rangements for bringing the new packets safely alongside t Holyhead, in all weather, to land the mails and passen gers, would be quite completed on the commencement of the improved service, early in August. The hon. member urged the importance of adequate accommodation being provided for the new vessels, and called on the Government to do all in their power to carry out the arrangement. Sir E. IROGAN said that the Government had under- taken to erect a suitable station for the new vessels, which were now provided, and would be on the station on Wed nesday next. Mr. LAING said that there was considerable difference of opinion as to the erection of a stone pier ; but a tempo rary arrangement had been made, under the direction of Mr. Hawkshaw, the Government engineer, and the direc tors of the steamboat companies. The principal thing re quired was a wooden staging on the side of the pier, and that he understood would be ready by the Ist of next month. Some delay had occurred in the building of the second boat, the Ulster, and by the time it was on the sta- tion the staging would be ready. Steps had also been taken for providing waiting rooms and a shelter from the wind. The Government would do all in their power to afford the best possible temporary accommodation. As to the case of Mr. Dunne, he had become insolvent some years ago, and was mixed up with accommodation bill transactions, and that was the principal ground on which the board had dis missed him. The questions of the hon. member reminded him of a string of interrogatories in Chancery. (Laughter.) The matter had been considered two or three times already, but the Government had no objection to look into it again. SUSPICIOUS FOREIGNERS. Mr. BENTINCK called the attention of the house to the necessity, in the present aspect of affairs in Europe, for conferring on Government more stringent powers for deal ing with foreigners of suspicious character resident in this country. The necessity for dealing with this question had much increased of late owing to the state of affairs abroad. It could no longer be considered as a trifling matter, after the opinions expressed by the highest authority in that house. The Channel, it should be recollected, was now bridged over by means of steam, and therefore the most important and absorbing question for the people of this country at the pre sent moment was that of its defences. He believed the subject to which he was calling attention was as directly connected with the defences of the country as ships, soldiers, and for tifications. There was a general feeling pervading the country that a descent might be made on this country, and that being the case, they were bound to consider the ques tion of the defences in all its bearings. If such an attempt were made it might be facilitated by the presence of so many foreigners within the country, whilst their efforts to repel it might be paralysed from the same cause. There was no use in disguising the fact or mystifying themselves on this sub ject. It could not be doubted that these defences were made with a view to protect themselves from an invasion byFrance. lie did not believe that such an invasion was contemplated by France, nor did he believe, if attempted, that it would be successful, but on the contrary that it would terminate in the destruction of every man who came to invade these shores. The noble lard, much to his credit, did not disguise the fact that our defensive preparations were set on foot with a view to France. Let him therefore suppose that such an invasion was made, it could not be denied that there were many thou sands of foreigners in the country, and especially about Lon don, who were not of the very best character—he might say of the very worst character. Those individuals, for the sake of some small pecuniary reward, might destroy the electric wires, or even the railways themselves, which, in the pre sent state of the world, were vital to military operations. He should like to know whether the Home Secretary had powers to meet such an emergency and to protect the coun try from such machinations. Unless the right hon. gentle man told him that he had sufficient and ample powers to deal with such a state of things in a summary manner he did not believe the country would be satisfied. If a bill was necessary for this purpose it was downright insanity not to bring in one.and to pass it immediately. He hoped the right hon. gentleman would be able to give an assuring answer to this question. Sir G. LEWIS said it was only by the indulgence of the house that he could address it again on the motion for the adjournment. He differed entirely from the hon. gentleman on the construction which he put on the speech of his noble friend. Mr. OSBORNE rose to order. The right hon. gentleman was out of order in addressing the house again. (Hear.) The SPEAKER said that the right hon. gentleman could address the house again only by permission of the house. Sir G. LEWIS said be had already intimated that, but if the house did not object he would answer the question put to him. (Hear.) He was saying that he entirely differed from the hon. gentleman as to the meaning and construc tion which he put upon the speech of his noble friend a few nights ago. He did not understand his noble friend as re presenting that he entertained any fear of an imminent ix vasion of the country from France or any other country. (Hear.) On the contrary, his argument went to this— The SPEAKER intimated that the right hon. gentleman was out of order in referring to the speech of the noble lord. Sir G. LEWIS would then only say that in a statement which might have been recently made to that house— (laughter)—it was not the wish that any impression should be created that the shores of this country were likely to be invaded. What ho ut,derstood was that in consequence of political changes which had taken place since 1815 ; in _ _ _ consequence of changtm which had taken place in the art of war ; in consequence of changes in the mode of communica tion, we were placed in a position of greater infericrity with regard to our defences than we were some years ago. That had no relation to any immediate danger. It was a perma next change, which it was proposed to meet by a permanent system of defence. The question with regard to our de fence, as :he understood, was whether we should expend a greater sum— Mr. OSBORNE—" Order, order." Sir G. LEWIS—Then he should proceed only to answer the question of the hen. gentleman, although it was diffi cult to do so without referring to the groundwork on which he based his question. He would only state that he did not concur with the hon. gentleman in thinking that we were exposed to any immediate danger such as his question contemplated. (Hear, hear.) But if war happened to arise, it would be competent for the house to entertain the ques tion of an Alien Act. In 1815 the Government was armed with the powers of an Alien Act. Those powers were, he believed, rarely exercised. His own opinion of the value of an Alien Act, as a means of defence, was by no means an exalted one. He did not regard very highly the possession of such powers as were possessed by the French during the revolution—the power of apprehending such persons who were deperibed by Lord Macaulay, in one of his essays, as tin e g" persons suspected to be o f a susp i c i ous character. " did not know how the Government could deal with aliens of a suspicious character except by deportation from this country or imprisonment in this country. He doubted very m uc h the bon wheth er , w i t h out much stronger reasons than gentleman had be dispos e d t o ask, advanced, the Government wou ld or the Parliament to grant, any increase to the powers already vested in the h an d s o f t h e execut i ve. (Hear, hear.) Re shod i not follow th e h on. gentleman nto the remarks he meth, a s to the character of several foreigners resident in London, ngaged in the pursuits of industry,liey were mostly persons ul and were not at all likely to engage in; such projects as gentleman bad sketched out. Thiere were no doubt° hon, gentleman residing here person s he could hardly who might be WWI political refugees conceive any class less likely to engage in any hostile prac tices against the British Government. Irnedreeraithreeasedcireum. stances he shoul d say the Government w with the power c dealing with these aliens and fore armedrs of suspicious cha ratter, and it was not therefore the in te ii_ tion of the Gove clement to propose any measure of this sort, TEI LMINABLE ANNUITIES. Mr. HUBBA ff..D rose to call the attention of the haute to the impolicy o f - raising money by loans payable internal- THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 28, i 866. nable annuities. He should deal with the question as briefly as possible, but he must put before the house the means by which loans were raised in this country. He would first say a few words on loans raised in the shape of Consolidated 3 per cents. No less a sum than £16,000,000 hus been raised in 1855. The price of that loan was 88 per cent., and the difference to the contractor was 2 per cent. The coun try, therefore, had the opportunity of raising money at £3 Bs. per cent. The next instance was that of the following year, when a loan of £5,000,000 was contracted for at 90; the interest to the contractor was 6s. 6d., making the price of stock to him £B9 13s. 6d. The market price was £9l, therefore the contractor had an advantage over the public of £l6s. 6d. That loan was contracted in February. On May 19, in the same year, a second loan of £5,000,000 was contracted for at the price of 93, the interest to the contrac tor being 13s. 3d. ; the price to him, therefore was £92 6s. 9d., and his advantage over the public £ll3s. 3d., the inte rest to the country being £3 4s. There were thus three in stances in which over £25,000,000 were borrowed on Con sols at an average diminution from the market price of 2 per cent., and an average interest of £3 7s. 6d., which was so moderate a rate of interest that no one could suppose any other stock could be raised at so small a charge. He knew very well it was said of Consols, " If you borrow on Con sols you add to the national debt," but that depended very much upon whether they were repaid or not, and the debt so paid between the sth of April, 1845 and 1846, amounted to no less than £4,600,000, and between April, 1846, and April 1847, to £2,700,000, and that had been done by the usual machinery in such a way as not in the smallest degree to affect the stock market, as would be seen by look ing at the share list, and showing the price of stocks on the day after the Government broker bought in, which was at regular specified quarters. It thus appeared that money could be raised on Consols and repaid without disturbing the market, and that the money could be obtained by Govern ment at about 2 percent. only above the regular market price, and although it was true that the funds were generally high when the Government broker sold out, and low when he bought in, that was not peculiar to the case of raising money by means of stock, but applied to all descriptions of loan, Allowing 2 per cent. to be lost in the first instance in the turn of the market, and assuming that 2 per cent. more would be lost before they could replace it through the me dium of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the Na tional Debt, that would be 4 per cent. spread over 30 years, or about per cent. There were these Exchequer bills, which could not be thrown on the market without dimi nishing the value of the amount already there. There were also the Exchequer Bonds ; and with respect to them he re gretted:that the feeling of the house had been unfavourable to the continuance of that sort of Government stock. He thought Exchequer Bonds only required to have a large circulation, in order that they might attain permanent and easy standard circulation throughout the country. Leaving these securities, he next came to the question of raising money by terminable annuities, and he would allude to the one mentioned the other day by the First Lord of the Trea sury, which he termed the dead-weight annuity. The sum of £585,745 was taken by the Bank in 1823, at a time when the funds were exceedingly disturbed, so that they could only make an approximation to the value. In 1842, when the income tax was imposed through the medium of an old act of Parliament, a grievous mistake was made, inasmuch as it taxed both capital and interest, and instead of receiving £4 2s. ld., the Beni; was obliged to recast the whole schedule of their affairs, and reduce the interest to £3 18s. 2d. In April, 1847, there was another change in the income tax which forced them again to recast their schedule, and the interest was reduced to £3 15s. 6d. In 1851 it was again reduced to £3 ls. 9d., so that they might well imagine how uncertain a security this was, and how little capitalists could look forward to it with confidence as a valid security. The next annuity was in 1834, which was left in the hands of the Bank of England, and the story of this transaction was a remarkable one. The Bank of Eng land had to receive back in that year from the Government ' one-fourth of the capital it had lent to them. The Govern ment had to repay £4,080,000, and it was agreed to put it into Reduced 3 per Cents., the amount of capital invested being £3,671,000, and from some cause or other the Bank, instead of receiving these Reduced 3 per Cents., received ultimately an annuity for 26 years, calculated on precisely the same rate of interest which the 3 per Cent. Annuities bore; and the large amount of £64,000 was absolutely con fiscated for 61 years by the operation of the income tax from the capital of the Bank of England for the payment of the debt. £4,000 was lost owing to the operation of the income tax, and £60,000 had never been paid to the Bank at all. The next annuity was that which was known by the name of the Long Annt“ties, which had been created at different periods from 1780 to 1860, in which latter year they were to expire. Those Long Annuities paid habitually 10s. in terest, but when the holders and investors became fright ened at this additional income tax, the prices fell, and the holders protected themselves not only against that diminu tion which had taken place, but from what they appre hended further. He had been obliged to state some parti culars at variance with the calculation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; hut he agreed with him as to the reduction which might be taken for the risk. The contract was made for the last loan on the 10th of April, and in May, when Consols were at 901, the omnium representing the new loan was granted at 2 per cent, premium; therefore there re mained 88 1 as the value to be given by the contractor iu arranging the taking up of the loan; but that sum was not given by the contractor immediately, but there was an allowance for interest of £1 25., which, if deducted from the £lOO, left £9B 18s., whereas Consols being at 88, no less than £lO 12s. was actually given for taking up that annuity; so that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer told them that the interest per cent. on the annuity was £3 155., he must have been mistaken, for a deeper and more accurate scrutiny would convince him that the rate of interest in reality was no less than £5 4s. 2d. per cent. (Hear.) The last bargain entered into by the Government in reference to annuities was a most unsatisfactory one. Whatever the reason might be, the fact was patent that the Government had sold annuitiesat a most extravagant rate for the finances of the country. The present price of annuities had nothing to do with the question. The great bulk of holders were holders of exceedingly small portions, and if any person took the price at which they were quoted as the real price he would find himself woefully deceived. It was said that the House of Commons, unless they were bound down by obligations of this kind, weuld never consent to raise a suffi cient sum for the service of the country, but he protested against the whole system, believing that a less complicated and more simple financial system would be productive of far higher advantages. The advantages of borrowing in terminable annuities were that two things which were in their nature totally distinct were confounded, namely, capital and interest, and that the property of the nation itself was diminished in a manner that left a stigma upon the intelligence and character of the house itself. A much more simple method would be to raise money by loan, and make the loan repayable by equal instalments over a period of years. Sir B. BRIDGES wished the Chancellor of the Exche quer to state, before he replied to the speech of the hon. member for Buckingham, when the excise duty on hops would be brought on for discussion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the question to which the hon. member for Kent referred had already undergone discussion, and must take its chance. With regard to the speech of his hon. friend the member for Buckingham, he admitted that it was a most lucid and able statement, yet he could not avoid expressing great regret at the opportunity which his honourable friend had selected for bringing it forward. In point of fact his hon. friend with a little concealment had made a speech which had reference entirely to the financial part of the scheme for providing for the erection of fortifications. He would not attempt to follow his hon. friend into all the details which had been laid before the house, but he must say that he thought the hon. gentleman had understated the cost to the public of borrowing in consols, if they were to include in their estimate of that operation the full charge which was in curred by the public before the debt was repaid. His hon. friend had made an allowance of a quarter or ss. per cent. only which was to cover the profit of the contractor and the average difference between the rate at which the public borrowed and that at which theyrepaid: His hon. friend after all overlooked the sole argument which induced the government to recommend }sorrowing in terminable annuities, namely, the spontaneous action of the machinery. Ile was sure the house were obliged to the hon. gentleman for the details he had laid before them, but it would have been much more convenient if he had availed himself of the re gular legitimate opportunity of raising the question. Mr. CAYLEY inquired what the legitimate opportunity was ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Up on th e resolutions of my noble friend in all their stages. THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. Mr. HORSMAN, in rising to call the attentien of the house to the state of public business, said he thought, un less the house was prepared to look the condition in which the public business was placed in the face, they were likely to incur great embarrassment and a serious amount of re sponsibility. Parliament met in the month of January, and they were now arrived at the 27th of July, and yet the business, and especially the financial business, was in a most backward state. After the last vote in supply was taken, ten days must elapse before Parliament could be pro rogued, and yet the Government were indefinitely post poning the committee of supply upon which the termina tion of the session depended. They had already passed the navy estimates, but a considerable portion of the army estimates remained. They lacjd still to dispose of the cf• fective service votes, the educational vote, a vote for for tifications irrespective of the loan, and the whole vote of two millions for the non-effective service; then, as re garded the civil service estimates, they had almost the whole to go through. The entire amount of those esti mates was £7,492,000, and they had yet £6,152,000 to vote. In point of fact no less than 191 votes had still to be taken, and many of them would give rise to considerable discus sion. On Monday next they were to go into the question of fortifications, and it was generally intimated that this discussion was not likely to terminate in one evening. He did not know whether the Government was likely to have the Tuesday, and if so next week would be mostly taken up with the discussion of the question of fortifications. The followingweek they would have the papor duties and a dis mission which would be likely to occupy more than one Wight. They wou ld a l so h ave t h e question of t h e sp i r it duties, the question of the hop duties which had just been raised, and also the question of the malt duties. Therefore, they might fairly conclude that the financial questions could not occupy less than a fortnight. They were, there fore, not likely to have any evening for the ordinary com mittee of supply until towards the middle of August. Next came the question whether they would be able to take sup ply at morning sittings. There were many bills which the Government were going to proceed with, although the number had been considerably reduced, for not less than 15 bills had been withdrawn, together with several notices of bills which lead appeared upon the paper. There were, however, stin to be discussed and passed upwards of 40 bills, either originating in this.house or coming down from the House of Lords. This was a very serious prospect, as they could not go into supply until the middle of August, and there were besides this upwards of 40 bills, with respect to some of which there were many amendments on the paper, and others had upwards of 300 clauses. If the business of the house proceeded smoothly and methodically he was of opinion that it could not rise before September. But the house was in a very unsettled state with respect to its legislation, and no one who looked to the state of its business could venture to predict on what day in September even it would be able to rise. He had looked minutely into the question ; he had consulted the best authorities, and he believed it to be the general opi nion amongst them that it was extremely difficult if not impossible to say what time Parliament would rise. A short time ago there were hopes that they might be able to rise on the 24th of August, but those hopes were now ma terially receding. Now, he must say that this was a very serious question, for the most important legislation of the country was put off until it was too late to consider them, especially most important financial legislation. (Hear.) It was a great public injury, a great public wrong, and he did not hesitate to say that if in former days this had been the practice it would alone have given rise to general cry for the reform of Parliament. He knew of no greater in jury that could be inflicted upon the country than wasting four or five months on business which did not pass, and then hurrying over most important matters. They had al ready before them five bills of Indian legislation, and two more were expected. He did not wish to comment in any spirit of hostility upon the conduct of the Government, but he simply desired to place before the house the position in which they stood with regard to Indian legislation. His own opinion was that the noble lord at the head of the Go vernment would consult the honour of the house if he did not now press on the legislative business of the country. On due consideration the Government would find themselves in an entirely false position with regard to Indian legislation. He believed he could show that they had not complied with the provisions of the act of Parliament which was passed in 1858, and if that were really so, he thought they would do well to acknow ledge the false position in which they were placed, and withdraw the bills which they had laid upon the table. The great security which the act of 1858 endeavoured to esta blish, was to give the Secretary of State for India the as sistance of a council of experience to aid him in the admi nistration of Indian affairs. Parliament looked forward to the probability of a Secretary of State being appointed who was not acquainted with Indian affairs, and who was al ways liable at a very short notice to be removed, and under these circumstances a council composed of men of experi ence was provided. Now, the views of Parliament at that time were so well stated by the noble lord the Foreign Se cretary, who took a prominent part in that legislation, that he would read his words. The noble lord said, No one could overrate the benefit that would result to the Govern ment of India if the Secretary of State were assisted by emi • nent men intimately acquainted with Indian affairs. In the place of the Court of Directors we are to have a council well acquainted with India, who will afford information to the Secretary of State upon any question on which he may re quire their assistance and advice. Now, I think this a great improvement in the Government of India." Again he said, " I cannot imagine that any Secretary of State would be so unwise as to set this council to mere routine duties which might be performed by clerks, instead of consulting them upon the main points of Indian policy ; and any Secre tary of State for India who so acted would but ill discharge his duty. (Cheers.) I think the Secretary of State would receive important and highly valuable assistance from his council on all great matters of war and general policy," This was the view upon which Parliament acted in passing the measure to which he had alluded, and in the act it took care to insert provisions for carrying out that view. It stated in one of its provisions that the council should, under the direction of the Secretary of State for India, and subject to the provisions of this act, conduct the business of the United Kingdom in relation to the Government of India; the mean ing being that in all matters of Indian legislation the Secre tary of State for India should have the assistance and ad vice of his council. Accordingly it enacted that all powers required to be exercised by „he Secretary of State shall be exercised by the Secretary of State in Council at meetings at which not less than five members of the council shall be pre sent, and that such meetings shall be not less than once in each week. Further, the act provided, in case of difference of opinion upon any question decided at any such meeting, the Secretary of State may require that his opinion and the reasons for it be entered on the minutes, and any member of of the council differing from him may, in like manner, re quire that his opinion and the reasons be entered on the minutes. He (Mr. Horsman) wished the house to observe how careful Parliament was in passing this act, that every thing that was done by the Secretary of State and by his council should be recorded, and recorded expressly for the information of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) The act required further that every order and every communication sent to India by the Secretary of State, or sent from India to the United Kingdom, unless the same were submitted to the members of the council, should be placed in the council room at least seven days before such order was made, or for a certain number of days after such communication was re ceived, and that it shall be lawful for any member of the council to enter upon the minutes his opinion of such order or communication, a copy of which opinion should be sent to the Secretary of State. Then came the 25th clause, to which he would call special attention, and which he was sure the house would support him in saying that the right hon. gen tleman had not complied with. That clause was "If the majority of the council record their opinions against any pro posal submitted for adoption, the Secretary of State shall, if he do not defer to the opinions of the majority so recorded, record his reasons for acting in opposition to it." (Cheers.) The house would see the excessive importance of these pro visions, and the reason of the excessive care wi th which Parliament inserted them in the act. The reason was this: They felt the responsibilities, the difficulties, and the dan gers of Indian administration. They accordingly appointed a Secretary of State, who was to have the as sistance of a council, and when they diffeted the council were on their part to record the reasons of their dif ference from the Secretary of State, and the Secretary of State was on his part to record the reasons of hie not acting in accordance with the views of the majority of his council. And what was the reason of this ? It was that when any measure was submitted to Parliament on the authority of the India department, Parliament might see the reasons on the one side and on the other—(hear, hear)—and exercise its power of review, and thus might on full information form its own judgment as to the legislation which should be adopted. (Hear.) He did not think on this point there could be any difference of opinion in that house, but he wished to point out the very false, embarrassing, and complicated position in which they were placed in regard to Indian legislation this year. It was manifest, he thought, that the various difficulties of that legislation had been foreseen by the Government and Parliament of 1858, and on full consideration provided for as far as possible by the Act of Parliament. It was ob viously the intention of the framers of the act he had quoted that all bills introduced in regard to Indian legisla tion should be well considered beforehand ; that they should be submitted to the house after full consideration by the Secretary of State and council; and should be brought before Parliament under such circumstances as would give ample opportunity to both houses to discuss them both in principle and detail. (Hear.) But what had happened this session ? They had at this moment five bills in refer ence to India before the house, and notices had been given of two others, which had since been withdrawn. Besides these, there was a bill coming down from the other house, and there was the financial question of India in respect to which they had found it impossible to obtain an answer from the noble lord as to when it would be brought forward. He would call attention for a moment to the dates when these several measures had been intro duced. The Indian Army Bill, a measure which proposed to effect the greatest changes perhaps ever made in any part of her Majesty's dominions within our recollection, was read the first time on the 21st June. The East India Stock Bill was brought in on the 20th June. Notice stood for two bills of which it was difficult to exaggerate the im portance, especially of that regarding the civil service of India—these were to have been brought in on the 23.1 of July, but from the opposition and objections made to their being brought forward at so late a period, the Secretary of State withdrew the notice. The Superannuation Act Amendment Bill was introduced on the 24th of July, the Senior Member of Council Bill on the 24th July, and the Admiralty Jurisdiction (India) Bill on the 24th July. All these bills were introduced after the 23d of July. Then there was the finance question, and although he had asked the question twice he was unable to obtain an answer when that would be brought forward, or if it was to be delayed until two-thirds of the members had left town for the ses sion, and there would be no opportunity for discussing it. He asked when all these bills were thus crowded in upon them at so late a period of the year, was not the responsi bility largely aggravated by the fact that the most impor tant of them was submitted to Parliament without t he ap proval of the Indian Council ? Was not the fact that all the members of the Indian Council were opposed o the Secretary of State in the matter a sufficient reason for ask ing the Government to postpone this legislation for the present session? (Cheers.) But the real point he would fix upon the attention of the Government was this : had the Secretary of State for India complied with the provisions of the act in bringing before Parliament on the one hand the recorded dissent of the Council, and on the other . the recorded reasons of the Secretary of State for acting con trary to their opinions ? (Hear.) The right hon. baronet had told the house that he had not thought it necessary under the act to lay this information before the house. The right hon. gentleman said, " I am only bound to consult my council in r es p ec t t o suc h ac t s as I may b r i ng forwar d as Secretary of St a t e; this bill is an act of the Cabinet, and therefore lam not bound to consult them," What wasthe answer to that ? The SPEAKER called the right hon. gentleman to order, reminding him that it was contrary to the rule of the house to refer to a previous debate and reply to arguments therein used. Mr. HORSMAN was not replying to the arguments used in a debate. The right hon. gentleman had published his opinions, and he was answering them. The SPEAKER reminded the right hon. gentleman that he had said he would answer the arguments of the hon. baronet. Mr. HORSMAN begged pardon; but the right hon. baronet said, " I am bound to consult the council in respect to any act of mine as Secretary of State for India, but in respect of any act of the Cabinet I am not bound to consult them." But what was the common sense construction of the Act of Parliament, and what did Parliament obviously intend by the pi ovisions to which he (Mr. Horsman) had referred ? Was it not that the Secretary of State for India should be the adviser of the Cabinet in all matters concern ing India, and being the Cabinet adviser was it not also in tended by the act that the council should be the advisers of the Secretary of State ? (Hear.) And if a question was so important as to be raised to:the dignity of a Cabinet ques tion, aid it not follow that that importance made it the more essential that the advice of the council should be taken ? (Cheers.) That was the common sense construction of the Act of Parliament, and he was sure it was the common sense construction every man in the house and out of the house would put upon it. Sir C. WOOD had to thank the right hon. gentleman the member for Stroud, in the first place, for giving him notice of his intention to bring under consideration the bills in the other House of Parliament ; and, secondly, for the calm and temperate manner in which he had objected to the course he (Sir C. Wood) had taken. He would dispose of that bill—which had not unnaturally excited the amuse ment of the house—by informing the right hon. gentleman that he never saw it until he found it enclosed in a commu nication that morning which the right hon. gentleman had been good enough to send him. It was true that a question had been pending as to the transfer to the Colonial-office of the Straits and Singapore, a petition having been pro • rented from the inhabitants of those settlements in favour of such transfer. The Governor-General of India concarred in the proposal, and early in the present year he (Sir C. Wood) wrote to state that, as far as the Home Government was concerned, there would be no objection to comply with tho wieheo of the irthithiltultm. Ou tho Farb, hews -Ter, of the India-office, he disclaimed all responsibility of blame with regard to the bill; and it must, he thought, be obvious to the right hon. gentleman, if he looked carefully at that bill, that the words ke alluded to were never intended to be inserted in the bill. The draft bill had got into the hands of the printer before it was finally revised. But the greater portion of the speech of the right hon. gentleman referred not so much to the India business in the house as to his conduct in introducing a bill without consulting the council. If the right hon. gentleman carefully consulted the act of parliament for the government of India, he would find that he had totally misrepresented its object and spirit. He admitted fully that it was intended that the Secretary of State, in transacting India business, should generally act with his council. There were cases in which he was bound to consult them, and sometimes even though he might ultimately overrule them. The right hon. baronet then referred to the 23d and two following clauses of the act showing the modus operandi prescribed for the transaction of India business, and said it was plain from the2ith clause that power was given to the Secretary of State to address a letter to India without submitting it to any meeting of the council. If, however, he determined to take such a cause he was bound to place the letter on the council table for seven days before it was despatched, and every member of the council had an opportunity of recording his opinion upon it in a book which was kept for the purpose, and that opinion so recorded was to be sent forthwith to the Secre tary of State. In the council itself, it had never even been suggested that the Secretary of State was bound to record his reasons in the event of his overruling the majority of the members. He maintained that in his ex ecutive capacity he was not legally bound to consult the council in the way the right honourable gentleman sup posed. The amalgamation of the Indian army was not a question which the council could decide ; it was a question to be decided by the Government and the House of Commons, and upon such a matter he was under no oblige•• tion to eonsult the council. His own opinion was that it would have been wrong for him to do so. The object of their recent legislation with regard to India, as he under stood it, was to impose a more clear and undivided respon sibility upon the Secretary of State ; and as to the question of the Indian army, he thought he might say that there was no difference of opinion between the leaders of the two great parties in the house. The right hon, gentleman op posite (Mr. Disraeli) said, in 1858, in announcing the in tention of the Government to issue a royal commission on the organisation of the Indian army, that it would be their duty, when the commission had agreed to a report, to come to a conclusion upon the matter; but that although the council of India might be very useful in carrying out any measures on the subject, he did not think it would be right to leave to them the decision of so important a question. He entirely concurred in that expression of opinion by the right hon. gentleman, and he contended that he (Sir C. Wood) was not open to the censure of having acted ille gally or contrary to the spirit of the act. The Government might be right or they might be wrong in introducing this measure, but of its importance there could be no question. The hon. and gallant member (Colonel Sykes) said the safety of our Indian empire was involved in the measure. So said the Government, but they held that it was involved not in the maintenance of a local army, but in the intro duction of a uniform military system. It was nothing but an imperative sense of duty that impelled him to bring for ward the measure, but from that duty he would not shrink. The question was asked, who wanted this bill ? He would reply, the 282 members who voted for it in 1851. The only way he knew of testing the sense of the house was by see ing on which side there was a majority ; and when he saw the second reading of the bill carried by five to one, he must take leave to think that the wisdom of the house ap proved of the measure. At all events let them have no delay, for he was satisfied that all parties in India would regard even what they might deem to be an adverse decision as infinitely preferable to being kept in a state of suspense. Mr. T. BARING observed that if the measure was of the imp rtance which his right hon. friend now stated it was, he must say that it could not be discussed under more unfavourable circumstances. (Hear.) Surely a bill which her Majesty's Government regarded as neces sary to the safety of our Indian dominions ought not to be introduced at this period of the session. There was still touch information which they ought to have before they proceeded any further, for at present they had received only the merest crumbs. (Hear.) All India must know it was not by hasty decisions that she could be governed ; it was by consideration of every question, and sifting the reasons for every measure. (Hear.) Lord PALMERSTON—I concur with the right hon. gentleman who brought this subject under consideration in regretting that so much businesshas accumulated so late in the session ; but at the same time I must repudiate the accusations which, by implication at least, have been made against her Majesty's Government as being the cause of that accumulation. Mr. HORS `IAN—I avoided saying anything about that. Lord PALMERSTON—Just so. Everybody knows, and therefore it is needless to refer to it, that in the early part of the session questions undoubtedly of very great import ance and interest, which it was the duty of her Majesty's Government to bring under consideration, tended to pro duce the result which, in common with the right hon. gentle man, I certainly regret. But when he goes a step further, and endeavours to make out of that state of things a reason why the measures of great importance now pending should be thrown over and postponed until another year, I can not acquiesce in the conclusion he thus draws. It is true, no doubt, that satisfactorily to dispose of the bulk of business which still requires to be transacted, it may be necessary for the house to sit to a laterperiodyhan, perhaps, is the usual course of business in this house; but at the same time we have only to look back to former years to see that it is not unexampled that the business should not be concluded until near the termination of the month of August. The moral I shall draw from the statement of the right hon. gentleman is not that the house should fly from its duties, and from lassitude or impatience of getting away, neglect to dispose of matters which it would be competent to deal with ; but that gentlemen should set their shoulders to the wheel and devote their minds really to the transaction of business, and that they should abstain from taking up more of the time of the house than is necessary for the useful and practical enforcement of the opinions they entertain, and of the arguments by which those opinions are to be sup ported. But now I must say that what has passed this evening is rather a departure from the course which the right hon. gentleman and I should join in recommending; because we have the first order of the day, after disposing of the motion for adjournment until Monday, the Indian army question, which has been the subject of discussion now for a considerable period of time on the motion for adjourn ment. The hon. gentleman who has just sat down has made a very animated speech, not merely on the question of the Indian army amalgamation, but even going back to the question d isposed of nearly two years ago—the abolition of the East India Company. A great portion of that speech was oc cupied in endeavouring to show that Parliament ought not to have made a change which they did make. I submit that question would have been more appropriate if the hon. gen tleman had waited until the Speaker had left the chair, on going into committee on the Indian Amalgamation Bill, and that discussing by anticipation the measures which are coming on in their regular order isnot a practice which tends to the despatch of business, or to bringing the session to a ter mination at a proper and early period. Having said this much I should be acting- against my own opinion if I went at any length into that which has been stated. But I must say that I think much of the argument used on this Indian question rests on what appears to me an entirely false conclusion, namely, that there are two Governments in this country- 7 one the responsible Government--responsible for the conduct of the affairs of the empire —and another irren,onsible Go vernmenf,-to be established peculiarly to the government India; because, if it is not true, as quoted by ale Tight heA. gentleman from the speech of . 1 1P14 frieAd last year, that the ecrety.y o f Stato is to be auptorge ix his council, and that the council is to be 5 co-ordinary authority—not T ~x~ responsible to any human being, and being appointed by the act (very unfortunately I think) for life, you are establishing an imperium in inzperio totally at variance with the funda mental principles of representative Government and free constitution. It seems to me there cannot be a more uncon stitutional doctrine entertained than to contend that the opinion of the Indian Council should be taken against the opinion which the responsible , Government for the time being may entertain upon questions of this imperial and ex tensive character. I quite concur that this amalgamation of the Indian army is a most important measure—important it is in one sense—that is to say, my opinion is, and always has been, that the creation and maintenance of a large local army in India is pregnant with the utmost danger to our Indian empire. I derived that opinion from my own convictions. It is an opinion I entertained from the very first time the subject was ever mooted, and that opinion has been strengthened every day by everything said for it and much that has been said against it. (A laugh.) It is all very wtll to have a local military force of a small amount in a particular colony. We may have a local force at Malta, or at the Cape, or in Canada, but to constitute, as is now proposed, a local army of 40,000 men in India, irremovable from that country, I say, would be to deliver the destinies of India into the hands of a prsatorian band, attended with the utmost danger to the imperial authority, and I contend there could not be a more fatal proposal adopted by this house in regard to that great and important empire. Therefore I look at the ques tion as one of the utmost importance, but quite in a different point of view from that which hon. members opposite view it. However, 1 will not go into that now. We have been. discussing the question of adjournment for four hours, only twice as long as the time occupied by my right hon. friend in explaining at full length all the reasons upon which he founded his proposal. My right hon. friend on the 12th of June stated all the reasons—and 1 never heard a more mas terly speech than he made on that occasion, taking, as he did, a general comprehensive view of every bearing of the question, and now he is reproached by the hon. member (Mr. T. Baring) with not having stated or given full infor mation to the house as to the grounds upon which the mea sure itself was proposed. I shall merely entreat the house to permit us to get rid of this motion and go into committee on the bill. In that committee every hon. member willhave a most appropriate occasion of expressing his opinions. We think the measure so important that, if the house should not be able to come to a decision on it to-night, I shall be willing to postpone from Monday that motion which otherwise stands for that day, and propose to go on with this bill on Monday if we cannot go on with it to-night; but I should hope we might be able to come to a decision now on the matter. (Hear.) Mr. DISRAELI—There have been some observations made with respect to the general state of the business of this house, and the causes for that state, which it would hardly be consistent with my duty to pass in silence and un noticed. I am unwilling in any way to refer to the past—to an old grievance —but I cannot help feeling that the remark able and, I might almost say, the unprecedented condition in which the house finds itself, having been summoned to meet at an earlier period than usual, and with a prospect of sitting later than any of us have ever experienced, is such that I should not be doing justice to the subject if I did not advert to what I believe to be the real causes of that position, and tracing the cause of that condition to the circumstances under 'which the present Government acceded to office. (Opposition cheers.) I really am referring to that event in a statistical and not in a political spirit. The noble lord (Pal merston) admitted the great importance, which no one can question, of the measures which have come under our con sideration, and he said they could not have been proceeded with earlier, because the house was engaged with other very important business which took up its time. No doubt the house was engaged with very important business from the time that Parliament met, and for a considerable period. But what was the important business ? The Government, sanctioned by a majority of the house, had laid down two principles of great importance in politics which were to be accepted by the House of Commons. One was that there there should be a reform of this house on principles more democratic than the measure produced by the late Govern- mont. The other was, that if the late Government were allowed to remain in office after the general election our re lations with France would be in danger. Well, events proved that the late Government, so far as reading the feeling of the country as to the principles upon which a reform in Parlia ment should be conducted, did not err in supposing that a more democratic measure than they themselves introduced would not be acceptable to the country; and the House of Commons, which had sanctioned a contrary opinion, upon reflection and after due consideration and prolonged debate, had recurred to the opinion the late Government had main tained. It did not prove the peculiar discrimination of the present advisers of the Crown that they took a contrary course. Then with regard to the relations between this country and France. It was held out as one of the principal grounds of a want of confidence in the late Government that those relations would be in danger if they were allowed to retain their places. Well, I think it has transpired that the conduct of the late Government was not of that charac ter which should have prevented a good understanding ex isting between the two countries, and I think it will be generally admitted, particularly after the speech with which the noble lord favoured us a few nights ago, that the rela tions between France and England at the present moment are not more amicable than they were when we quitted office. I do not find fault with the decision of the House of Com mons ; but what was the consequence of their vote ? In the first place, the Government, who, if they were entitled to the confidence of Parliament, ought to have had that discri mination to have recognised the measure that was adapted to the necessities of the times and to the inclinations of the people with regard to parliamentary reform, introduced a bill on different principles to that introduced by their pre decessors. That bill was no doubt a lamentable failure and grievous disappointment to all sides of the house. But that lamentable failure occasioned a great loss of time; and it is to that circumstance, in the first place, that a great deal of the unsatisfactory state in which the business of the house is now placed is owing. With regard to the second point, the friendly relations between France and England—having laid that down as the second great cause why we should be expelled from power—a decision with which we do not want to quarrel, and which I touch upon now only historically-- it was necessary for the Government to prove that there was between France and this country, under their auspices, an extraordinary degree of sympathy, and to demonsti ate that they were the only statesmen who could produce and carry measures which would be the happy consequence of that extreme and happy sympathy. Therefore, there was pro duced at the commencement of the session that most extra ordinary treaty between this country and France which I acknowledge was received by acclamation by the house, but which every man now in his calmer moments looks back to with regret and apprehension—(no, no)—which has entailed on this house enormous trouble, and which will bring us now, in a few days at this very end of the session—at the fag end of our deliberations —another great Parliamentary conflict and contest. Well, then, I say it has been in con sequence of her Majesty's Government being formed on these two principles, of carrying a more democratic measure of Parliamentary reform and of introducing a more intimate alliance between France and England than it was supposed could be carried out by their predecessors, and it is in con sequence of the ill - conceived and ill-timed and unfortunate and unhappy measures, whether in the shape of reform bills or of commercial treaties, which that policy introduced, that we have, in fact, wasted the whole of this session in measures which have either totally failed orbeen withdrawn, or have been only partially successful, and in a great de gree disastrous. There are the two measures of the session —the Reform Bill and the French Alliance—followed by consequences so different from what was anticipated, and which have led to the state in which the house now finds itself. The Reform Bill—withdrawn under circumstances upon which I will not now dwell—the treaty which, though introduced with acclamation, was followed by a project of extensive fortifications against our only and prime enemy, according to the Prime Minister, France. (Cheers.) I say it is forming a Government on false principles, and wasting the session, to introduce measures to vindicate these false principles, this waste of time, and thin almost scandalous position in which we find ourselves. Look at the conse quences. I will not talk of small points. I will merely re mind the noble lord that the house met in February; that the Reform Bill was not introduced till March ; tho Bank ruptcy Bill not till much later ; and that during this period days and weeks have been wasted. I come to the measures now before us, this important group of measures affecting the future destinies of our Indian empire. Ido not wish to offer to the Government an unfair opposition. (Oh, oh, from the Government benches.) I say frankly my desire and wish is to support her Majesty's Government in their poli cy with regard to India. (Oh, oh.) Ido not shrink from the opinion I expressed in the speech which has been cited by the right hon. gentleman. Ido not avail myself of any un expected opposition which may spring up; but I do say this, that, instead of wasting our time on moonshiny'mea • sures of Parliamentary reform, and on phantom treaties of commerce, if the Government had come forward when Par liament had first assembled and said, " A great revolution has taken place in the imperial relations of this countrywith India—late measures have rendered it necessary to change the conditions of our power in that country—and in conse quence the House of Comtuons has assembled and must not shrink from governing that great country with intelligence and adequate knowledge," then you might have come for ward with your measures, and I do not think you would have had a session barren of results. If, with lingering ad miration for the glorious career of the East India Company, we had said, " Well, after all, it was a statesmanlike deci sion, fully in accordance with the spirit of the times, that , there should be an unity of Government, that we should .no longer be found existing under different rules and a different policy, and that Parliament had acquired a great responsi bility," and if the Ministry, sensible of that responsibility, had shown on the first occasion that they were equal to it, and had appealed to the knowledge and thought of Parlia ment to pass measures, provided they wereworth passing— I say it would have been no mean session of Parliament, and we could have dealt with adequate measures for the Govern ment of India—we oeuld, at the end of tbsi..,ion, haVe ap pealed witch vc,rrnate Verson of our Speaker, to the SOvereign, and have said that we had brought up these bills as the naatuse result of statesmanlike thought and adequate knowledge, and have shown ourselves worthy of the occa sion, and of the great trust and new responsibility we' had incurred. But is that our present condition ? No ; weeks, long months, have been wasted in attempting to carry out an illusory programme which was the pretext on which the change of government was carried. That is the true cause, that is the real cause, that is the sole cause, of the position in which the House of Commons is placed, and which, I cannot conceal from myself, has placed it lower in the opi nion of the country than it otherwise would have been. That is the true cause why we are not equal to the occasion, but find ourselves at the end of the session with exhausted energies, called upon to fulfil the highest duties, and when we are obliged to submit to a lecture from the treasury bench, that we must talk as little as we possibly can, saying of course what is useful and practical, but not for a moment venturing to diverge into any of those considerations the contemplation of which affords so vast and colossal a theme as India would naturally be supposed to create in the minds of English statesmen. Sir, in my mind this is not by any means a satisfactory position. This has been the longest session of parliament—it probably will be the longest ses sion that has occurred for the last 20 years: We probably may sit to the:end:of August. There is little hope now that we shall pass any measure—l will not say of importance, because it is not improbable that some of these Indian mea sures may pass—but no measure of importance carried with maturity of thought, with that adequate and sufficient de bate which measures of this kind require. And the cause is open to all why so little time is left to the real business of the country. Sir, Ido not feel lam justified in the House of Commons, placed in the condition to which I have referred on the present occasion to make invidious comments on these two principles. Ido not think the House of Commons , although they have made, no doubt, a great mistake on the subject of parliamentary reform—although, no doubt, they have made a great mistake on the subject of our relations with France—ought to rise up and accuse the Government, which they have formed on those principles whose practice has proved to be utterly illusory and futile. Sir, it is our selves on these benches—the minority, which might prefer these claims and pleas of objection. We do not. (Ironical cheers.) We regret very much the time that has been wasted. (Laughter.) The time that has been wasted has been the inevitable consequence of a majority—a bare majo rity of the House of Commons, choosing to form a Govern ment on principles which every human -being knew could not be practised. We knew very well that it was utterly impossible that the country would be deluded by a measure of Parliamentary Reform such as that shadowed forth in the programme on which they destroyed the late Govern ment. We, at least some of us who from our position were obliged to be acquainted with the facts, knew very well that there was nothing in the histo/ y of political misrepresen tation more false and flagitious than those misrepresenta tions which pretended that the late Government, in their management of our foreign relations, were false to the in terests and hoiour of England. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) We knew all this. We knew very well that when you chose to displace an administration on such a plea, and form a Government on such grounds, you were building a house on the sands. But we are not going to take advan tage of your inconsistency. The government of this coun try is not to be made the shuttlecock of contending parties. You determined—and you solemnly determined--to estab lish and form and maintain the present administration. You have no right to accuse the Government for that waste of time. You have voted for an impossible Reform Bill. You sanctioned the accusation respecting our foreign policy, which, if you had knowledge, you must have known to be false;; which, if you were igaorant, you were not justified in giving your vote for. (Cheers.) And now what is the best course to take to maintain the reputation of this house, and to satisfy the fair claims of the country ? So far as I am concerned, I will give an impartial consideration to the measures which her Majesty's Go vernment may bring forward even at the end of July. (Ironical cheers.) I shall support them if they are con sistent with sound principles of government and with the true policy of the country. Nor should I have risen on this occasion, when this controversy was taking place be tween the Government and their general supporters —con troversies to which we are now accustomed—had it not been that not once, not twice, but frequently, in this dis cussion comparisons were made to which I could not sub mit with any feeling of self-respect —comparisons made first by others than the noble lord, and then by the noble lord himself, who spoke of the present scandalous position of the House of Commons as being attributable to the cause of very imprtant business having engaged the at tention of the house during the first months of the session —important business which really never had any existence —brought forward to fulfil the pledges of faction, and which I should not have murmured at myself had it not wasted the precious time of the nation. But one topic there is upon which I must address an inquiry to the noble lord. We have heard to-night from the noble lord that the well considered programme of puhlic business announced last night is now to be changed. On this subject I should like that there should be no misapprehension on the part of the house. I ventured last night to say that there was a gene ral disposition on the part of the douse of Commons to as sist the leader of the house as far as possible in the conve nient management of public business. I think we have a right to expect from the Government, as I ventured to say then, a spirit equally frank and confiding. Last night the noble lord made an arrangement which at this time of the year is more important than at any other, and everything that falls from the lips of a Minister in the conduct of pub lic business is important at all times—last night the noble lord made an arrangement which the house finally ac cepted without hesitation, cheerfully and with satisfac tion. I understand that on the 6th of August the pro posed change in the paper duties will certainly—if the Go vernment persist in that measure—be brought forward. I take it for granted, notwithstanding the change which the noble lord has made with respect to the Fortifications Bill, I take it for granted that the arrangement with regard to the paper duty will be adhered to. Lord PALMERSTON—Yes, certainly. Mr. DISRAELI—I am glad to hear that assurance, which I am sure will give satisfaction on both sides of the house. We shall now enter on the discussion of this measure (the Indian Army Bill). I shall take that course whici I consider consistent with the course I have taken previously, and that I have always expressed ; and I have only risen because the course of public business has been referred to, and the position of the House of Commons bas been so treated that a gen‘z al impression would go about that it was the fault of individual members—who are only doing their duty to their constituents in this house, in ex pressing opinions on public matters—that we are in our pre sent mournful condition ; and it is only because that assertion has been more than once repeated, that I have risen to make any protest against it. (Cheers.) The SPEAKER —Perhaps the house will permit me again to put the question before it, which is that the house at its rising, do adjourn till Monday next. Two or three of the later speeches which had been addressed to the house have passed into the question which is really waiting for discussion—(hear, hear)—and if this debate goes further, I must request that hon. gentlemen who may flarther address the house will not fall into that error. (Cheers from both sides of the house.) The motion for the adjournment of the house was then agreed to at 11 o'clock. INDIA. On the order of the day for resuming the adjourned debate, Mr. ROEBUCK said he was of opinion, notwithstanding what the noble lord had said, that the India Bill had not been sufficiently discussed. True, the second reading had been carried by an immense majority, but he believed that there had been a great change in the opinions of the house, and that if the question was further discussed the change would be still greater. (Hear, hear.) Let them recol lect that they were discussing a measure which involved the interests of 200 millions of people. (Hear, hear.) They were about to pass the management of the army over to the Imperial Government, and to change the army itself into mere birds of passage. He need not stop to inquire, what would be the effects of this upon India, but would ask what would be its effects in this country? The pa tronage would be nominally vested in the Horse Guards, but really it would be Tested in the Treasury bench. In our other colonies we had only secured safety by leaving them to do what he had recommended. 20 years before, and that was to govern themselves. India was formerly governed by men in Leadenhall-street, and partly by the Board of Control. Some men approved of the double government, and others objected to it; but the real responsibility was on the Treasury bench, and now the right hon. gentleman desired to have the whole government and the whole exercise of power ; and thane who wished to see the patronage vested in the authorities in England supported him. Of this he felt sure—the.t so great a change, so vast au alteration, as proposed by this bill, should not be hurried through Parliament. (Hear, hear.) He believed the bill would be injurious to the inte rests of England and would be injurious to the interests of India ; and that being so he should do all he could to op pose its being passed into law. (Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL said the arguments of the hon. and learned gentleman were much the same tic, these used when the India Bill was being carried through the house, and when he said there ought not to be n double government, but that there ought to be as much as possible a concen trated responsibility. That argument was against the a coun cil. Now, th e h on . an d l earne d gentleman argue d in d very singular man ner by s t a ti ng that his r i g ht hon. friend wished to rid hi mse lf o f hi s responsibility by go ing to the n council ; and in what way had he done so p Why, by going to his council and stating his o pinion and obtaie, ing their opinions, end knowing that all w ere a g ain st bim producing them, and then his right hon. friend was accused of having made the council a screen for himself, and of not having taken the whole responsibility on himself, as h e ought to have done as a Minister of the Crown. (Hear, hear.) That was very ingenious, no doubt, but it was con trary to the common sense of the question; for if his right hon. friend wan t e d to make the council a screen, h e would not have got their opinions, and then, fi n di ng - them the reverse of his own, have produced them. (Hear, hear.) If the house was averse to the plan of the Government let them propose a measure for a local force in India, and carry it in the present session, and let the army know what they meant and what were their intentions. Tf the house was afy. just the whole principle of the measure, let them not express their opposition by an ambiguous instruction to a comm itt ee . They had better vote against going into COM,:i mittee at all. After a few words from Colonel DzwisoN, The question was then put, and the proposed instructioa ,o the committee was negatived, Mr. M. MILNES moved the instruction of which he had given notice :—" That it be an instruction to the committee that all appointments to military commands in India (the commands-in-chief alone excepted), and all staff appoint ments, whether military, naval, or medical, be vested in the Governor-General in Council and other constituted authorities in India." On the motion of Mr. DANDY SEYMOUR, The debate was again adjourned to Monday next. SUPERANNUATION ACT (1859) AMENDMENT BILL. This bill passed through committee. ADMIRALTY JURISDICTION (INDIA) BILL. This bill also passed through committee. ENDOWED CHARITIES BILL. This bill was read a second time and ordered to be com mitted on Thursday. The Clearance Inwards and Lien for Freight Bill was read a third time and passed. The Census (Scotland) Bill was read a third time and passed. The Corrupt Practices Prevention Act (1854) Continu ance Bill was read a third time and passed. The Gunpowder, &c., Bill was read a third time and passed. FORTIFICATIONS. Mr. B. OSBORNE asked the noble lord at the head of the Government on what day he proposed to bring on the question of fortifications. Lord PALMERSTON said it would depend upon the European Forces (India) Bill, the adjourned debate on which would be resumed on Monday, but he would bring on the question as early as possible after that bill was disposed of. Mr. E. JAMES complained of the vagueness of the re ply, and trusted that upon so important a subject the noble lord would give some more definite information to the house. (Hear.) POOR RELIEF, &c. (IRELAND) BILL. Upon the motion that this bill, as amended, should be considered, Mr. NEWDEGATE moved, in the clause which enabled guardians to maintain orphans and deserted children out of the workhouse up to the age of twelve, to omit the word "twelve" and insert "six," instead. On a division the amendment was lost, The remaining amendments were considered and agreed 4„ The Infants' Marriage Act Amendment Bill was read a second time. The Rifle Volunteer Corps Bill amendments were con sidered and agreed to. The other orders were disposed of, and the house ad journed at 2 o'clock. FROM THE GAZETTE OF LAST EVENING. FOREIGN-OFFICE, JULY 27. A despatch, dated July 24, of which the following is an extract, has been received by Lord J. Russell from Lord Bloomfield, G C. 8., her Majesty's Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary at the Court of Prussia : I have the honour to inform your Lordship, that her Royal Highness the Princess Frederick William of Prussia, Princess Royal of Great Britain and Ireland, was safely delivered of a daughter, at the New Palace, at Potsdam, at ten minutes past eight o'clock this morning. DOWNING-STREET, JULY 26. The Queen has been pleased to appoint David S. Kerr / George J. Thomson, Cha r le s D u ff, an d A n d rew R a i ns f dr d Wetmore, Esqs., to be her Majesty's Counsel in the Pro vince of New Brunswick. Her Majesty has also been pleased to appoint James Lushington Wildman, Esq., to be Senior Stipendiarl Magistrate for Port Louis, in the Island of Mauritius. WAR-OFFICE, PALL-MALL, Jun 27. NOTICE.—The next examination of candidates for direct commissions in the army will be held at the Royal Hospi tal, Chelsea, on Monday the 6th of August next, and fol• lowing days. BANKRUPTS. Samuel Oyler Beeman, wine merchant, Lower Thamesa street. Samuel Bennet, tailor, Nottingham. Bernard Aal, tailor, Lambeth-street, Whitechapel. George Stevenson, shoe manufacturer, Keele, Stafford' shire. Francis Benjamin Schrader, leather factor, Liverpool. Thomas Palmer and Samuel Palmer, drapers, Plymouth Joseph Lawson, ship broker s Fenchurch-street, City. Edward Heathcote, grocer s Rock Ferry, Cheshire. Joseph Hooper, leather merchant, Bermondsey. Charles Henry Josiffe, b otel-keeper, Strand. Elizabeth Wright, lothzing-house keeper, Manchester. Ann Amelia Leevers, hosier and dealer, Liverpool. William Osborne, printer, Birkenhead. Thomas Elvius Pountney, licensed victualler, Erome grove, Worcestershire. SCOTCH BANKRUPTS. George Robert Stewart, commission agent, Glasgow. Robert Spence and Sons, tanners, Linlithgow. John Murray, sen., baker, Kilmarnock. James Love, shipowner, Fraserburgh. BANK OF ENGLAND. An Account, pursuant to the Act 7th and Bth Victor's, cap. 32, for the week ending on Wednesday, the 25th dill' of July, 1860 : iwirtna ine.T.Awratial4T. / Notes issued . £29,614,440 G overnment Debt £11,01 5 . 0 ~o Other Securities .. 3,459,M Gold Coin & Bullion 15,139, 11 " Silver Bullion £29,614, 440 429,6E4,440, BANKING D : Proprietors' Capi tal X 14.553,000 Rest Public Deposits (in cluding Exche quer, Savings' Banks, Commis missioners of Na tional Debt, and Dividend Ac- :PARTAIENT. Government Secn- rities (including; Dead Weight A nnuity) Other Securities .• 4 1 9 9, 7 4 7 0 1 ,5 44 3 1 ?„ 53 Notes Gold and Silver Coin 775,394 counts) 3,960,021 Other Deposits 14,828,614 Seven Day and other Bills 712,156 £37,444,4 01 M. MARSHALL, Chief Cashier. X 37,418,407 Dated July £6,1860. AVERAGE PRICE OF SUGAR. The Average Price of Brown or Muscovado Sugar, corn' puted from Returns made in the week ending the 24th del of July, 1860, exclusive of the duties of Customs paid or payable thereon on the importation thereof into Groat Britain : Muscovado, the produce of the British pos sessions in America Muscovado, the produce of the Mauritius —s --d Muscovado, the produce of the East Indies.. 29s 60 Average price of the foregoing .. 29s Bjd LOUNTRY MARKETS. LIVERPOOL-JULY 27. We had a good attendance of the town mail country tra de this morning, and a ready business was dome in w h e at, at the full rates of Tuesday. India n corn was s low and easier in price. Flour in good demand, at the full quotations of Tuesday. WAKEFIELD -JULY 27. The supplies being short, wheat sold at Isl to 2s per qr• dearer than last Friday, but business was dull. Not much demand for spring. In other articles no change worthy of noto. Averages for the week : W h Beanse a t 1 ,570 ars., at 54s r6d Peas .. 20 4N 08 45 — 46 s 2d 8ar1ey......... 200 — 34 s 9d Oats — —B Od Rye — —s ed EXETER-JULY 27. Business was firm in the corn market to-day, send quo' tations were at late rates. Wheat, white 7s 9d to 8s Od I Barley. 4s 4d - to 45 6 d, Ditto red 7s 3d to 7s 6d Oats .. 3s 6d to Os 0 4 Flour, fine, 44s to 455; seconds, 41s to 42s per BAAL. CATTLE. There was a fair attendance and a tolerable supPlY of stock. Prices about the same. Fat beef,p score, lls to 12s6d Ewes, per lb .. • • 6d to 7,1 Pork carcases, do lis to 11s 6d Wethers, d 0...... 7d to na Sheep, per lb. 7d to 7-111 Fat calves, d 0.... 6d Ito 7d Rough - fat; 41c1 per 1b: BRISTOL SUGAR---JvLY 27. We continue to experience a steady demand for rail, sugars as well for the refiners as the grocer's trade. Re. fined goods meet with about an average sale. Rum quiet, the sales having been confined to a few puns. of D em erara for immediate requirement, for which about the late valuer! have been realised. BIRTHS. DAMER.—On the 26th inst., at 2, Chapel-street, Groove.: iWatts, of a d aughter. nor - square , the lion. Mrs. Seymour Dawson Darner, of a daughter. N i —On the 26th i nst., at 9, Lower Woodlan d., t Charlton, the wif e of E. Fred. Nicholson, Esq ., R Ace son. w the 24th in s t. , at Clapham, the w i fe of Li ou t.d Colonel T7He.: O o,: 3, Ni a NT o as l, e_ s MARRIAGES. LANE—LAMBERT. —On the 26th inst., at Chilboitono Hants, Henry Charles Lane, Esq of Middleton, Suseer-o late of the 2d Li fe Guards, to Catherine, youngest daugLv ter of the Rev. Anthony Lambert, M.A., rector of Chit' Bolton, RAW LINS—HooPER..--Onthe 26th inst., atTrinityChurcho Paddington, the Rev. F. J. Rawlins, M.A , to Jane Harriet, daughter of E. T. Hooper, Esq., R.N. DEATHS. BACON.—On the 25th inst., at Worthing, Edmund S. Co Bacon, Esq., Commander R.N. BURT.—On the 24th inst., at Islington, James Burt, ENO aged 79, DYSON.—On the 26th inst., Mr. Henry Dyson, of Pitfield • street, Hoxton, aged 74. EVANIL—On the 26th inst., Mr. Thomas Evans, of Down' ham-road, Kingsland, aged 64. FENNELL.—On the 25th inst., at Red-hill, Stow -bridge? Mrs. Fennell (ntle Collis.) GAIRDNER.—On the 25th inst., at 45, Northumberland,' street, Edinburgh, Susanna Tennant, wife of Dr. asirw . ner, F.R.C. S., Edin. SINCLAIR.—At The Mount, Norwood, Constance Enn /att Mary Catherine, daughter of J. G. T. Sinclair, of Ulbste V, Caithness, aged 16 months. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG' of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at. The Bun Office, No. 1 12 : Strand, in the Precinct of tho Savoy, in the coun t / 14 Middle's:ix, Saturday, July 2a, 1860.