The Sun. — London, England, 1860-05-18 00:00:00

render himself liable to an indictmint at common law, The question therefore was whether that would be an indictable set. He was not prepared for one moment to question the doctrine upon a matter in his opinion very different from that before the house, namely, on the doctrine of conspiracy to excite and foment rebellion in the States of foreign and friendly Powers. The hon. gentleman had quoted, and very properly, the statements of high authorities in that house and elsewhere, that conspiracy could be dealt with as a misdemeanour, and punished by fine or imprisonment ; and so far from taking any exception to that doctrine, he would cite from a de bate, which took place on the 4th of March, 1853, the lan guage of Lord Lyndhurst on a similar subject. Lord Lyndhurst said, on that occasion, if a number of British subjects were to combine and "conspire together to excite revolt among the subjects of a foreign and friendly State, and issue proclamations and manifestoes, and above all if they were to subscribe money to purchase arms to carry into effect that intended enterprise, such persons would undoubtedly be guilty of misdemeanour, and liable to severe punishment, inasmuch as it might lead to discord, and ultimately to war, between this country and the country against which the conspiracy was directed. (Hear, hear.) He (the Solicitor-General) found no fault with the doctrine thus propounded, but every English lawyer knew the dif ficulty in bringing to bear on such cases the operations of the common law. They had in the case of Dr. Bernard an instance of the extreme difficulty of bringing the common law to bear upon an individual who conspired to bring about an act intended to be completed in a foreign country. He would only say, in justice to himself, that he had ex pressed himself the other night—that he .had expressed his opinion on a particular case put before him—and as to the law on that case. He gave no opinion as to the ease of persona who formed themselves into a committee for the purpose of raising subscriptions, nor even as to those who caused advertisements to be inserted in news papers, still less as to the penal or other consequences to persons who might take part in such a combination. With this limitation he held and repeated the opinion he had already expressed; and he would only say further upon the general subject, that in the Foreign Enlistment Act there was strong evidence on the part of those who framed that statute, of their conviction that the general terms lof the law of this country were insufficient to deal with offences of that description. (Hear, hear.) His attention had been called by the hon. member for King's County to the doctrine laid down in a case de- . cided by the Court of Common Pleas. It had been inferred that a solitary act of subscription would amount to an in dictable offence.. On that point he was entirely at issue with the hon. member. He did not deny that in the case of a foreign loan sought to be raised against a country at peace with this country, the Court of Common Pleas, in an action upon the contract, held that it could not be enforced, and, that the contract was tainted with illegality. But every lawyer knew that illegality was one thing, and liability to bean oceeded against in a criminal court another. He thought that when the matter was fully considered, it would be found that there was no great difference of opinion upon it. He concurred with the doctrine expressed in the House of Lords as to - conspiracy, but he held that though individual sub scriptions, such as had been alluded to, were contrary to common law, and any contracts between parties to such subscriptions being tainted with illegality, could not be en forced in the Court of Common Pleas, they did not neces sarily bring the parties within the scope of the criminal courts. (Hear.) Mr. WHITESIDE—If the answer "given to the house the other night by the hon. gentleman has, by means of the electric telegraph, created some confusion abroad, I think I can undertake to say the speech which he has just made will not be productive of much alarm, as I rather think it will not be understood. (Hear.) In the words of the old couplet,— " He darkens by elucidation And mystifies by explanation." (Laughter.) lam utterly at a loss to know what the hon. and lean ed gentleman really thinks upon this matter, which is one of great importance to the peace of Europe, and to the estimation in which this country is to be held abroad. (Hear.) When he sat down I was more in the dark even than when he got up to understand what are his views upon this matter. The question is this :—An advertisement appeared in the papers referring to a committee of individuals who had joined themselves together for the purpose—whether laudable or not this is not the place to discuss—of collecting and con veying subscriptions to those persons who are now in insur rection against their severe gn the King of Naples in Sicily. That is a fact which it is beyond the hon. gentleman's powers of explanation to mystify. (A laugh.) I understand that the learned gentleman was asked, in reference to that advertisement, whether it was legal for a body of persons so to join themselves together in this country, and whether it was legal for persons to subscribe according to the requisi tion of thit advertisement. I understand him to have stated that in his opinion it was. Forthwith his reply is flashed over Europe, and is quoted in the Sardinian Parliament. It has been taken up as an exposition of international law that the more friendly you appear to be to a particular Sovereign, the more actively you may engage in co-opera tion for his destruction (laughter) ; and, therefore, if to morrow an adiertisement were to appear from certain exiles in some journal, referring to a committee for rozulating the affairs of France, and calling on persons to give in their sub scriptions for the purpose of restoring the Orleans family and dethroning the French Emperor, we should be told in the same way that such a proposition was legal. (Cheers.) To do justice to the Solicitor-General—not that I under stand it—the distinction which he drew was this : If an in dividual pays his money it may bo misapplied ; but, as it would be opposed to the principles ot morality to inquire whether the money was rightly applied in disposing of the Sovereign for whose destruction, according to the terms of the advertisement, it was morally and specifically to be ap plied, therefore, he says, an individual may lawfully sub scribe. I doubt it. (Cheers.) The hon. and learned gen tleman was not asked by what means such a person was to be prosecuted, nor as to the form of the indictment—that was not the technical question which was put ; but whether a man could lawfully subscribe in aid of the objects which persons forming themselves into a public body had under taken to accomplish. I say they could not. (Cheers.) The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—The question is whether they would be liable to any legal proceedings. Mr. WHITESIDE—It is true the question is put in that form ; but the hon. a.d learned gentleman is not asked to specify what exact proceedings should be taken ;" and it is impossible to escape from the difficulty by reference to the case of an individual, because the very document shows that he is only one of a number. (Cheers.) Mr. E. JAMES—I should not have said a word on this question if the hon. and learned gentleman the Solicitor General had not cited as a precedent —or rather as an in stance of the difficulty of convicting persons on a criminal charge of conspiring to commit offences against the laws of foreign countries—the case of Dr. Bernard. That case has nothing whatever to do with the matter we are now discuss ing. Dr. Bernard was not indicted for conspiracy at com mon law, but for an offence under a particular statute, and he was acquitted by a jury. Inasmuch as I was the advocate in that case, I shall refrain from stating any grounds but those which are publicly known. It was felt on that occasion that a statute had been perverted for the purpose of endeavour ing, by the indictment of an individual, to relieve the Go vernment from a political difficulty ; and the jury were per fectly justified in the view which they took, because the Government were challenged to bring forward their legal arguments, and, those arguments being postponed, the de fendant was acquitted on the facts of the case. Dr. Bernard was indicted, not for conspiracy, as the hon. and learned gentleman has told the house, but under a statute that was known to every lawyer in Westminster-hall not to apr ly to his particular case. And, therefore, when the Solicitor- General states the difficulty of convicting persons of con spiracy, his observation must be taken to apply to the evi dence ; and if this is a conspiracy—and I, as a lawyer, have no doubt that it is --(loud cheers)—the hon. and learned gentleman, I think, will find grounds for reconsidering the hasty and immature opinion which he has given on this sub ject. 'What clearer evidence can you have of the overt acts of a conspiracy than the payment of money by one individual and its receipt by another? (Cheers.) If a committee advertise for subscriptions, they are surely supposed to be "human beings congregated for the purposes of that subscrip tion; and if a person pays to them a certain sum towards the object for which they have advertised, and they receive .it, I want any lawyer to get up in this house and say what dearer evidence of evert acts can be afforded. (Cheers.) The hon. and learned gentleman, therefore, when he stated that persons under such circumstances were not liable to legal proceedings, answered, I think, a little off his guard, and gave rather a rash opinion. I deem it of great import ance that this matter should be thoroughly understood on the continent—(cheers) ;—and I feel that we are indebted to the hon. gentleman the member for the King's County for having brought it forward. (Cheers.) The hon.,and learned gentleman the Solicitor-General spoke of this as an offence against the Foreign Enlistment Act, which it cer tainly was not; it had no more to do with it than with the habeas Corpus Act—(a laugh)—but there is a question to which the Foreign Enlistment Act" does apply, and I ask the hon. and learned member for the King's County to bring that forward on another occasion. (Loud and sustained sheering.) I allude to circumstances to which the Foreign Enlistment Act expressly applies, to the case of parties wh• are now committing offences under that act by carrying on the enlistment in Ireland of persons who are to be sent over to Rome, and there to join the army of General Lamori ciere. When the hon. and learned member talks of the slaughter of priests, I think we may say with equal force .that the transmission of recruits to swell the foreign army Vs•hich is to take part in the massacre of the Pope's subjects, comes equally within the provisions of the Foreign Enlist.. meat Act. (Tremendous cheering.) The debate wee here interrupted by the appearance at the bar of Lord PROJiY, Comptroller of the Household, who stated that he was the bearer of the Queen's answer to the Address of the House of Commons on the subject of pen- Aions for wounds. The message was in the following terms : " I have received your address praying me to reconsider the warrant granting pensions an d a ll owances to officers of the land forces, limited to wounds and injuries received in Action; and you may be assured the subject shall receive due consideration. The ATTORNEY - GENERAL —There should be no piisunderstanding with regard to the principles by which every Government and every nation ought to be guided on subjects such as that now under consideration—(hear)-- and those principles I freely agree to be these :—You have no right whatever to interfere in the domestic affairs of an other nation. (Cheers.) That, unquestionably, is the rule of common law, and the foundation of all legislation on the subject. If you wanted to exemplify this in your own his tory, the lecture which you read to the FraLch king on the _ _ occasion of the revolt of your North American colonies would supply you with abundance both of principles and of reasoning. The hon. and learned member for Marylebone says the members of the committee are conspirators, and that any person subscribing to the funds might be included in an accusation of conspiracy. I should have been glad if the hon. and learned gentleman had condescended to men tion some instances that would have justified this conclu sion. I was very anxious to find one when the Conspiracy Bill was under consideration ; and I cannot think my hon. and learned friend spoke unadvisedly or rashly when he said there was no ground on which an indictment could be laid against persons contributing to these funds. Sir H. CAIRNS—I think with the hon. and learned member for Marylebone that the hon. member for Kings County (Mr. Hennessy) has done good service in bringing this subject forward. It has been reduced to the smallest possible compass by the definition of the law given by the Solicitor-General. He admits the principle laid down by Lord Lyndhurst—that if a course of action, amounting to a conspiracy, is taken to effect an illegal purpose, by any number of persons, all who take part in that a ction are liable to be indicted for the conspiracy. The question, then, is this :—Does a subscription to funds raised with the object of subverting the Government of another State render the particular individual subscribing liable to indictment for conspiracy ? The Attorney-General wants an authority for such an indictment. I think the point is clear; I think an illustration may be given, of which the house will see the force, and which does not require much legal acumen to appreciate. Suppose sub scriptions were advertised for in London with the object of raising a riot in Yorkshire, would not a person subscribing to that fund, for the promotion of that purpose, be guilty of conspiring to effect it ? I cannot conceive what act of con spiracy can be more overt or more definite than handing money to a common fund when told that the fund is to be applied in a particular way. (Hear.) But to say that the common law does not extend to every man, woman, and child within the jurisdiction of the Queen — The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-4 did not say that. Sir H. CAIRNS—I beg to say that the distinction sug gested by the hon. and learned gentleman may very well be drawn in this . case. It is only a case of the liability, under the common law, of foreigners collecting subscrip tions for the purpose avowed. Mr. BOVILL—The importance of the question cannot be overrated. By the interpretation of the law on this sub ject the interests of England and Europe may be affected. If this subscription is illegal by the law of nations, the King of Naples may immediately, and without a declara tion of war, seize the property of all British subjects in his dominions. I assent to the proposition of the Attorney General, that this subscription is illegal ; the Government has not prevented the subscription, and at this moment we are virtually at war with Naples. Mr. HOPE trusted the house would receive a fuller ex planation of the state of the law than had yet been given by the learned Attorney-General on this subject. It was now fully established that we had no legal power to turn aliens out of this country. We were therefore, according to the Attorney-Geneml,in this extraordinary position—that while we could not expel foreigners, we were at the same time un able to enforce our laws upon them. 'That was a matter that concerned other countries as well as our own, and the house had been given to understand that our law could not be enforced equally on foreigners living in England, and on our own fellow-subjects. That was too important a point to be left as it stood, upon the mere casual explana tion of an authority like the Attorney-General, and he hoped, therefore, that that learned gentleman would dis tinctly state whether he meant to propound such a doctrine to the house. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL--What I stated was simply this, that the common law is applicable to the sub jects of England ; but it has never been decided that mere foreigners resident in the country would come within the meaning of the words " subjects of the Queen." The better opinion undoubtedly is that any conduct which in the subjects of the Queen would be entitled conspiracy would in the case of foreigners receive the same designation ; but it is difficult to say how far the rule is to be carried, for lot me put this case—Suppose that a natural-born English subject sent £lOO,OOO to Garibaldi, undoubtedly I should consider that a misdemeanour at common law ; but suppose a Sicilian refugee sent the same sum, I should have no con • fidence in giving an opinion that that also would be a mis demeanour at common law. In the absence of decisions the subject does not admit of a more decided opinion. Mr. MONSELL said that before the house left this sub ject he wished to call upon her Majesty's Government to state what were their intentions with regard to this most im portant matter. The law had been distinctly laid down by the Attorney- General, and there was no doubt that what was now being done in this country, not only by foreigners but also by subjects of the Queen, was in direct contravention of the law of nations and contrary to the law of this country. (Hear, hear.) If these subscriptions had reference to the territories of a more powerful Sovereign than the King of Naples, could there be any doubt as to the course which her Majesty's Government would feel themselves forced to pursue ? (Hear, hear.) Suppose that in France or Russia subscriptions were got up and announced in the public papers for the purpose of freeing the people of the lonian Islands, who objected to their Government as much as the Sicilians did, from the yoke of Great Britain, should we for one moment tolerate such a proceeding? (Fleet - , hear.) Was it not right' and proper, then, that we should do to others what we should wish them to do to us, and should deal with small and insignificant States in the same man ner that we should be compelled to deal with the great and powerful ones ? (Hear, hear.) He therefore, wished to know whether her Majesty's Government were prepared to take up this matter, to ascertain whether a prosecution could be instituted, and, if it could, to undertake it at once —(hear, hear)—because the very announcement of their de termination to pursue such a course would have a moral force and a moral weight in this country, and would through out Europe destroy the lamentable and unfortunate effect which the doubtful opinion given by the hon. and learned gentleman the Solicitor-General had already produced. (Hear, hear.) Before resuming his seat he could not help alluding to an observation which had, as he conceived, been improperly made by the hon. and learned gentleman the member for Marylebone. The hon. and learned gentleman had endeavoured to cover the unpopularity of the coarse which he was taking by making an attack upon the Pope. Now, he asked hon. members, whatever might be their prejudices or their feelings, was that a justifiable course to pursue ? What were the words that he used ? He said that the army under General Lamoriciere was to be used by the Pope to massacre his subjects. What right had the hon. and learned gentleman to speak in such a manner of General Lamoriciere, a man who was known throughout Europe and throughout the world as one of the most gallant and distinguished soldiers on the face of the earth ; a man whose whole career had been one of the most noble that any mili tary man ever pursued, and who had gained the esteem / admiration, and affection of all those who had served under him ; what right had the hon. and learned gentleman to speak of such a man in such language ? (Hear, hear.) There might be differences of opinion as to the Government of the Pope, there might be persons who complained of this thing or of the other, but no man, not even his greatest enemy, accused him of inhumanity or cruelty. Why, he commenced his reign with the proclamation of a general amnesty, and through his whole cow se his every act had been marked by the greatest benevolence. (Hear, hear.) He was now forced to collect troops; and for what purpose ? Had they read one of the proclamations of General Garibaldi, in which he summoned the Italian people to unite and deliver Umbria and other parts of the Papal ter ritories from the dominion of the Pope ? 'When the Pope found that there was an union of powerful forces against his small State what could he do but gather together troops to resist them ? That was his object, not to massacre his subjects, nor to ill-treat those whom he had always endea voured to benefit, but to resist those foreign Filibusters who wished to raise a rebellion in his States. That he believed to be the real fact, and the words which had been used by the hon. and learned gentleman with regard either to his Holiness or to General Lamoriciere were words which ought not to have been used by any member of that house. (Hear.) The hon. and learned member for Marylebone had erro neously stated that the Foreign Enlistment Act was passed for the purpose of meeting such a case as that of certain Irishmen enlisting in the army of the Pope. Everybody knew that during the 17th century English subjects Were in the habit of serving foreign States. In the reign of George IL, on account of the Jacobite conspiracy agains the English Crown, it was found necessary to pass an ea for the purpose of preventing foreign enlistment; and in 1814, at the time of the peace, there was a treaty made be tween England and Spain, one of the sections of which contained an engagement on the part of this country not to assist in any way the revolted provinces of Spain. In 1819 it was found that under the law of George 11. English sub jects, although not able to enlist in the Spanish army, might lawfully take service on the side of the revolted pro vinces. Mr. Canning considered that that was a breach of the treaty of 1814, and an Act was passed for the simple purpose of making the prohibitory law include, not only enlistment in the army of any foreign Prince, but enlist meat in the service of anybody claiming to have any au thority in a foreign country. Undoubtedly English sub- ects had always been in the habit of taking service with foreign States, and that, too, without any fault being found with them. When the present Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster was in the Home-office an application was made to him on the part of an English officer in the Austrian army, who wished to be allowed to get rid of his English naturalisation. That application was refused, as being contrary to the law of this country; but the Home Secretary never dreamt of finding fault with the British officer for having enlisted in the Austrian army. If there was any objection to Irishmen enlisting in the army of the Pope the first thing that ought to be done should be the announcement of the fact in a Royal proclamation, for hitherto it had not been the practice to prevent enlistment izt the array of a friendly Power ; and if the Government had THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY E P;EINING, MAY 18, 1860, . ... . ' no t revent the resolved upon a change of policy in that respec t Neapolitan vesiels from firm g; but he says had the opportunity of firing upon the it was their n that l: duty to take the step he had suggested. (Hear.) . .. c lici- vessels and the men, they did not so. He a vs,- moreover, had been landed , and . the merchant t to ta Mr. MALINS thought that the opinion winch t h e ..a.. tor-General gave on a previous occasion with respec t deniers had disembarked al the troops of 'Garibaldi, the the Neapolitan steam Ler came to him English boat to take . possession although they for the e command of of waging war against a friendly P lawfulness of raising subscriptions in this e c w or r w tiaL juealt. purpose that if his hon. and and Mod ,_ tiously advanced, and felt convinced The English officer, Captain Marryatt, learned fr iend, instead of making an elaborate attempt to of those vessels. .aed to do so. (Hear, hear.) He had provebe wrong, properly deck. . • • these very , athorisedlum to take vessels, that to be right which everybody knew to which . . had candidly acknowledged that he had expressed . himself no instructions w a nroceedings. His instructions too hastily, the house would have treated him with the or to take any part in those I. `he British Government greatest indulgence. Anything more dangerous or more were , as the conduct if 1— .. hira to send an fn . gla Autrality in the to observe perfect b., .„ .refore although con erroneous than the doctrine laid down by the Solicitor- has been, . General—vm., a direct denial—;. of ' that foreigners residing in this country might filet that is going on. (Dar, hear.) Th.. . '4. knowing e ships, !awfully combine together to raise money for the purpose . this officer does not give ite... revented the fire of the Neap: ll u of making war witha friendly Power, he could not conceive. anything of its existence—to the allegation that la , - ~ _ The Attorney-General had entirely repudiated it, bat at the being l anchored, may inf e r P from his account that such was same time, doubtless from a desire to screen his colleague, vess th e s, from Marsala any of his officers who had expressed himself with considerable ambiguity on one not asked ehicwaseete. recall does appearthat the Neapolitan captain portion of the subject. He had correctly stated that for any and when his dicers had come on board fire was pose of making war against a friendly Power was contrary purpose , body of men to combine together to raise money for the pul e - Nere onTshore, and he immediately put up a signal for that That should be considered as an act of international cour whether the law was applicable to foreigners resident in this the common law of England, but he had also raised a doubt opened on the town of Marsala by the Neapolitan ships. ot::: afte reriu the men. country. Now, if the hon. and learned gentleman really t e e t sy ell on im t p h l e y par the t t o t f h t e he E N n g h oli e t hi an p entertained any doubt upon that point, it was his duty to seewPertaeinin, but tko it w a d y o does not ili e remove it without the loss of a single day, for surely nothing fire. It does not appear that the English officer in any way could be more just than that foreigners resident in this country, and enjoying the protection of our laws, should be exce eded etecxee his duty. He was there for the purpose of pro tin gßwrieetisy a few words upon the other point which has British interests, sad he did no more. (Hear.) I bound to comply with them in all respects. His own epe- mu st ne n so much discussed. I shall not, of course, touch upon defined by the Attorney-General, was equally applicab l e accurate l yto the q uestion of law upon which the hon.. and learned gen- natives and foreigners, and he suspected that if the sub tle en on both sides have given us admirable disquisitions, scription adVertised in the Times had been raised to put bu t rn from which I cannot ascertain that in this particular down the Government of the Emperor of the French, or of case is wise for de Government to prosecute. It it would be some other powerful Sovereign, it would have been stopped one thing to state the general purport of the law,—and long ago. (Hear.) The debate had beenmost useful and no one m could do so with greater clearness and authority important, and ought to have some practical result, and he than therefore wished to ascertain what was the intention of the but it is y hon. and learned friend the Attorney-General,— another qaestion whether, if the Government were Government with respect to those advertisements calling on to foreigners and British subjects to subscribe money to make prosecute in a certain case, we asked him to state the probability of obtaining a conviction. The hon. and learned war on the King of Naples. (Hear.)' With the Govern- gentleman opposite says we ought immediately to prosecute ment of Naples this country ought not to interfere, or, - ifth e e persons who put the advertisement into the paper. I interfered, should interfere in a manner to leave no dou b t it m surp rised evi as to the result ; but this acquiescence, amounting to con- den te that a lawyer should s ay that. What re e have we of who it was that put that advertisement nivance, in irregular proceedings against a powerless ally int o the newspap er and endeavour to obtain evidence of who had this ? We must first go to the printer of the was grossly improper. He apprehended that the Govern- w ment on consideration would find that a foreigner in n se e nt e Ft a , P e and then to oomiect them with the advertisement country had equally with a British subject no right to pro-d Mr. MALINS--Names ere given of persons by whom and the subscriptions. jest the upsetting of a foreign and friendly Governm en t , an this matter might be brought to a test if an indictment subscriptions will be received. were preferred against the parties issuing the advert isem ent e p rinter of the Times newspaper, I allow, but lam not Lord J. RUSSELL--There are names given by the he had alluded to. At any rate, an intimation from th con- Government that the proceeding in question was discount e- w inced that Signor Saffi or ethers whose names appear, if nanced by them would have a salutary effect. In conf or- they were asked by some one sent by the Attorney General, mity with the same principles of strict neutrality the puss- would at once admit that they desired their names to be given Lion whether or not Romagna was to belong to the Pope as the collectors of subscriptions to be expended in was one to be settled between, him and his own subjects, te making war against the King of Sicily. I should think it and therefore the enlistment in Ireland of troops for h would be necessary to prove all that, and to bring evidence Pope, alluded to by the hon. member for Marylebone, m ust to shovethat the printer of the Times did not without au be considered an infringement of that strictneutralityw hich thority use the names of Signor Saffi and others, or we ought to be preserved in this country. should be all at the mercy of the p r i n t er o f th e Ti mes , w h o Mr. NEWDE GATE trusted that if the Government acted might give the names of a ll th e C a bi ne t as contr ib u t ors o f on the suggestion to issue a proclamation to prohibit assist large sums to be used in waging w ar aga i ns t th e Ki ng o f - ance being given to General Garibaldi, on whose under- the Two Sicilies. " Hear," and a lau g h.) Th e h on . an d taking he gave no opinion, they would proceed impartially learned gentleman is a much better jud ge th an I am o f in the matter, and not ignore any longer the movement these matters, but if the government were to prosecute in such cases they would hare to ask the law officers as to the in Ireland, promoted by persons holding authority in the means of obtaining convictions. Ido not remember any Roman Catholic colleges, for the enlistment of her Ma_ means of successful prosecution in respect of persons who jesty's subjects to serve the Pope. The Government would not forget the promptmanner in which the attempt to enlist had been subscribing forthe purpose of mantaining insur- American subjects was resisted in America, and he hoped rection or wars in Poland or other countries. There is one they would not permit the agents of any foreign Power to country in regard to which I myself was concerned, to enlist within her Majesty's dominions forces intended for gether with many distinguished persons. I refer to the the service of a foreign State making war for temporal pur- insurrection in Greece. We carried on our proceedings poses, although the head of the State was invested with spi- openly. I w as a member of a committee which met at ritual authority . Not only were men being enlisted, but the Lord Fitwilliam's house in Grosvenor-square, and after days of Peter's Pence were revived—contributions were wards we went to a meeting in the city. I did not find at being extracted from her Majesty's subjects under the name that time there was any great zeal for prose cu tin g us of a tax formally abolished by the Legislature of this coup- (" hear," and laughter), and certainly I never suffered any try. This was no trifling matter. It was all very well for imprisonment in Consequence of my connexi on w ith, th ose the house to express indignation at what might be a rash Proceedings. (Hear, hear.) Theref ore th e ques ti on o f undertaking by Garibaldi. But that was a sudden move- common law does not appear to be quite s o l ve d y e t, an d it ment, while the other was a protracted and organised sys- requires much consid era ti on b e f ore th e G overnmen t can tem. Was inconsistent with the law of this country, and with feel warranted in interferi ng . B u t, a ft er a ll, th ere i s muc h the principles of international law, that the agents of foreign difference of opinion on th ese p o i n t s . S ome say , "Wh a t a States should raise money and men in this country without wicked thing it is to assist in waging war against the King the consent of her Majesty's Government ? He w i s h e d t o o f his powertheT w . o , , Sicilies, and in exciting insurrection against ask whether the persons accepting this engageme n t did no tl But, then, other gentlemen say, "That is from the hour of leaving this country lose all claim to their not so very bad, but it i s a d rea df u l thi ng t o go an d ass i st rights as British subjects, and whe her the consent of the the Pope. That is a cr i me i n d ee d." B u t w h en you c Government not having been given they did not stand in the consider these questi ons o f i nsurrec ti on an d i n t ernat i ona l position of pirates, and were not at the mercy of any foe law you must sepa ra t e th em f rom eac h o th er . A move whom they might encounter ? He thought that if Govern- ment such as that whi c h W a lk er a tt em pt e d i n s out h ment took any action in the case of Garibaldi, they ought America, when he sought to invad e an d t o o bt a i n equally to take it in the other. (Hear.) possession of territory, with no hi g h er o bj ec t th an hi s own selfish interests, is one case ; but a patriot fighting Mr. B. OSBORNE—I am not about to enter into the for the independence of his country is quite mother question of enlistment in Ireland. That is not properly the cas e . , (Hear, hear.) We know that our. sympathies question before the house. (Hear, hear.) The original and the julgrient of history will distinguish between the questionwas one calling attention to the reply given by the cases of the filibuster and felon, and that of the hero and Solicitor-General respecting Garibaldi's expedition and the patriot. (Hear, hear.) We had once a great filibuster that, to my mind, appears the more serious matter. The who landed in England in 1688. (Hear, hear.) He not only house must feel that it has arisen from the very elaborate received considerable support, but all the people of Eng , answer given the other evening by the Solicitor-General, land flocked around him. (Hear, hear, and " No.") That who has been universally thrown over by every lawyer in filibustering was successful. (Hear; hear.) These are cases the house, and even by his own colleague the Attorney in which it is not sufficient to say that Garibaldi is a man General. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) I must say I fighting against a Sovereign whom he ought to respect, or heard that answer with great surprise, but it is no slight that the Pope is endeavouring to maintain his authority by thing for the Solicitor-General by implication to leave unlawful expedients. It is not enough to say these things people out of doors to imagine that the subscription which in a glib and fluent manner. These questions, whether has been so extensively advertised is a legal ono. In one taken as questions of law, or politics, or morals, require point, at any rate, this discussion has bean useful,—we much examination before you can affii Zither moral blame have now ascertained that the subscription is strictly an or moral praise to those who ar e engaged in them. I cer illegal one. Whether it would be advisable on th e p ar t of thinly would not pledge the Go vernmen t t o un d er t a k e a Government to prosecute, and whether they would get a conviction is another question ; but it is no doubt the place prosecution in this case. Wh e n ever we fi n d th at t h e pla i n law is openly outraged it is our duty, undoubtedly, to see of Government to give expression to their opinion on the subject in this house. If they are for the doctrines of non- that it is enforced. That has b een d one f requently i n cases intervention, of which lam a humble disciple, they ought of breach of the Foreign Enli s t men t A ct, b ut even as to t to state that this is an illegal combination for assisting statute we have found co ns id era bl e diffi cult i es in the way of our carrying it into effect. I will not bind myself by people in opposition to a Sovereign with whom we are on a general declaration of what is the common law to prose friendly terms. (Hear, hear.) If we once give way to this sort of thing, on what ground can we c om pl a i n o f th e con - cute those who are raising subscriptions to sen d money to duct of ? Have I not heard gentlemen he re using Sicily. (Hear, hear.) the strangest language with reference to G enera l Weikel? Mr. WYLD, referring to th e " bl asphemous proclama- What was said about the att em pt by A mer i can Filibusters lion" that had been attributed t o Ri cc i ard i , said that docu- ment had never been acknowledg e d b y th at patr i ot or his some time ago to take the Havann a h ? Th ose are parallel fends. (Hear.) With respect al so t o th e statement that instances, and if we are on every occ as i on t o ex p ress oar sympathies by subscription in opposition to Sovereigns Garibaldi was a member of a secret soc i e t y, h e rem i nded the with whom we are in house that the imputation had al wa y s b een ' denied by that amity, you may say what you like about the common law of England, b u t l am sure it is distingu;shed individual, who was t oo no bl e to connive or against all the principles of international law. (Hear, hear.) take part in private murder. (Hear, h ear. ) These may not be popular sentiments, but I think th e y are Mr. MAGUIRE said the noble l or d h a d stated that the such as ought properly to be entertained by an independent printer of the Times might take ext raor di nary lib ert i es with member, who has no sympathy with Naples, and much the Cabinet, and might put down th e name o f every member of it as having aided and assisted th e expedition. of Garibaldi. liking for the Sicilian cause, but who thinks, whateve r hi s If the printer of the Times had don e th a t , h e would by no sympathies may be, that it is not right to truckle to.mere out-of-doors feeling, and that he ought to lay down the means have made an extraordinary m i s t a k e (a laugh), position which he wishes this country to assume upon all seeing that the Government had do ne everyt hi ng in their occasions. (Hear, hear.) Now, I wish on this subject to power, perhaps unconsciously, to prom o t e di scontent i n the put a question to the F ore i gn S ecre t ar y. I have read in dominions of the King of the Two Si c ili es, and to a certain extent to encourage the present rebellion. The noble lord, the newspapers with consider a bl e sur p r i se th a t the landing of Garibaldi's force at M arsa l a was grea tl y ass i s t e d b y sitting in the Foreign office a s a ki n d of E uropean school- Englishmaster, had regularlybirched th e Ki ng o f N ap l es — (a laugh) vessels. Wheth er th a t b e t rue or no t, I k now th e report is very prevalent o n th e C on a nent because I have - —he had, in fact, done everythi ng t o di scred i t h i s autho rity in his own dominions, an d h a d a l most justified the in received communications from a b roa d s t a ti ng th a t th e f ac t clearly shows thi s coun t ry t o b e i n f avour o f t h e ex surrection. The fact was the Ki ng o f N ap l es was compelled pedition. On the Trea sur y b enc h thi s quest i on h as b een to take steps which might b e ca ll e d ar bi trary and harsh, but narrowed down to the m ere cons id era ti on o f i ts l ega l bear- which were absolutely n ecessary i n the state of the public feeling there. Surely th a t S overe i gn, when he found con broader grounds. I think we oug ht t o h ave a Mi n i s t er o f ing ; but ,I think it is important th a t it s h ou ld res t on some spiracles hatching in N ap l es w i th the view to foment insur greater authority than the law off icers o f t h e C rown to t e ll rection in Sicily, had a perfect right to turn the conspira us what truth there is in the st a t emen t , t h at t h e l an di ng o f tors out of the count r y. H e (M r. M aguire) hated to see in the despatches emanating from the Foreign-office all that the expedition has been ma i n l y ass i sted by English yes- eels. (Hear, hear.) With regar d to the subscriptions, I cowardice and truckli ng man if este d towards a great power, a believe there are many sympathi sers Wi t h t h e Siciliancause and that tyranny and opp ress i on t owar d s the ema i l. (H ear. ) even in this house. I, perhaps, may sympathise, but my The noble lord was brave when he had to deal with the King of Naples or the S overe i gn o f R ome, b u t h e bl anc h e d duty here is superior to my sympathy, an d I cer t a i n l y w ill when he had to encounter th e E m p eror o f F ran c e . Th e not show that sympathy by breaking the law. (Hear, hear.) The O'DONOGHUE said it used to be h e ld th a t illegal most abominable conspiracy th e wor ld over saw w a s now acts only met with approval in Ireland ; b u t suc h a doctrine being carried on in Italy, and all the confusion there at this moment was owing to the i n f amous m a c hination s o f could now no longer be maintained. H e h a d h a d th e h onour two kingly robbers. He was p er f ec tl y j us tifi e d i n th e b e li e f of presiding at two meetings, and of t a ki ng p a rt i n a third influential that the robbery which was p erpe t ra t e d i n It a ly o f a por ion of the States o f th e P ope an d of a port i on o f th e A us meeting, for the purpose of expressing sympathy t with his Holiness the Pope. He had never don e an ythi ng of trian dominions, and the division of the booty between those which he felt so proud—(hear)--and he was sure the house two Sovereigns, originated in a base compact between them. would agree with him that there was such a difference be- And what was the principle that had been sanctioned by tween assisting a legitimate Sovereign to maintain order in her Majesty's Government ? Why, that it was lawful for his dominions and assisting rebels who were endeavouring to any portion of the subjects of a legitimate Sovereign to cast overthrow their legitimate Government. He hoped the off hie yoke and to hand over their allegiance to another. Government would answer the question which had been On the same principle the people of Cornwall or of Devon repeatedly put to them, and would state what course they might throw off -, the yoke of the Queen, and might, by intended to take in this matter. Unless they did so this universal suffrage, express their discontent with her Go debate would have had a most unsatisfactory termination. vernment, and their determination to be free, or to hand (Hear.) As to the statement of the hon. and learned gentle- over their allegiance to the Emperor of the French. man (Mr. James) that those who were going from Ireland, (Hear, hear.) Garibaldi is called an illustrious patriot, and if any were going, were proceeding to Italy in orderto mas by many mere high-sounding epithets ; but who were his sacra the subjects of the Pope, that was a most =warrant- accomplices ? Why, the very scum of Italy—bandits and able calumny on the people of Ireland. He believed that if assassins, leagued together by ties of blood. Among them they were going it was with no such intention. He should not take upon him se lf t o say w h e th er th ese proceed i ngs was one Zambianchi, who, judging him by his acts, w as an infamous villain, a foul, blood-stained robber, and an as were contrary to the Enlistment Act or not ; but he gave the sassin. He could tell the house something of that man Zam most emphatic denial to the statement of the honourable bianchi. He had been a Custom-house officer, and was an infi and learned gentleman. del and vagabond—(a lau g h)—he feared neither God nor man; Lord J. RUSSELL—My h on. f r i end (Mr. B. Osborne) he was at enmity with the Pope; and therefore, forsooth, he has asked me a question 'respecting th e landing of Gari- was a hero and a patriot. During the rebellion in Rome he baldi, and respecting two British ship s w hi c h are said in assisted in arresting every person who endeavoured to escape certain telegrams to have protected the landing of these men- from the confusion in which the Pope's dominions were at Now, 1 received to-day from the Admiralty the telegraphic that time; and if the persons whom he arrested ventured to despatch of the officer commanding ono of these vessels— express opinions different from his own he settled the con the Intrepid. Hon. gentlemen should be informed that troversy either by the dagger or the pistol. He had a large there is considerable British property at Marsala, and that field of action in the city of Rome. He brought a number from the time when a rising in Sicily was exp ec t e d, a n d still of priests into San Calisto, whom he imprisoned, afterwards more from the time when the report was circul a t e d that starving some and murdering others, cutting them in piece- Garibaldi was going there, applications ha ve been made meal and gloating over their agony. Such were the hor both to the Foreign-office and to Admiral Fanshawe, who rible atrocities committed by that miscreant that the revo commands in the Mediterranean, to send ships for the pre• Intionary Government were eventually compelled to inter tection of British property whore British subjects were to fere and put a stop to his barbarities. Why did the noble be found. Admiral Fanshawe accordingly sent the Intrepid lord do to the King of Naples what he did not dare to do to and the Argus to Marsala. The Intrepid arrived, I think, the Emperor of France ? Tho noble ' lord would say, of on the 11th, but had not been th ere l ong before two raer- course, that the Emperor of France went to Italy to liberate chant steamers came in with Ga r ib a ldi' s force and began to Italy. Was there ever a more monstrous ', humbug" than land it. While this was going on two Neapolitan ships of that ? (An ironical laugh.) He repeated, was there ever a war--asteamer and a frigate—approached Marsala; but this more monstrous "humbug" than for one of the most eon officer says that, although these ships might have fired upon summate despots whom the world ever saw to pretend to the vessels and upon the men during their landing, they did give liberty to Italy? When the people were shot down in not do so. He does not say, not knowing anything of the the streets of Paris at the time of the mil) d'etat, did Ipay Ire. story that has since been mind, that the English ships did bake for the brutal atrocities perpetrated on Unit Occiole4 important a matter in the hands of the Admiralty as at pre sent, constituted, seeing that their previous efforts had proved so completely failures. How could it be otherwise in a department ruled by a civilian, who knew nothing whatever about naval matters, with a Board appointed chiefly for political reasons, and with but little re gard to professional merit ? He could hardly re collect a single naval man of eminence and distinguished talent who had ever had a seat at the Board of Admiralty. Sir Thomas Hardy was the best of them. (A Voice—Sir George Cockburn.) Well, he owned Sir George Cockburn was a distinguished officer; but during the whole 18 years that he was at the Admiralty scarcely a single improvement took place. In the War Department there were the Adju tant-General, the Quartermaster-General, an I their respec tive deputies, who could be employed to inquire into any thing that went wrong and prepare a report en the subject. But the services of no similar officers were at the disposal of the Admiralty, although in the case of the recent muti nies, they would have been found of great value. When the Admiralty wished to make an inquiry into any irregu larity on the spot where it occurred, so many of their lord ships went down in their yachts, which was very beauti fully fitted up and well stocked with wine, and enjoyed themselves as though they were a mere party of pleasure. He suggested that the offices of Rear-Admiral and Vice- Admiral of England should no longer be allowed to remain sinecures. The Senior Lord of the Admiralty ought to fill the office of Rear-Admiral, and the next lord that of the Vice-Admiral. They could then visit the dockyards, inspect the ships and the works, and examine everything for them selves. Theymight then perhaps be able to instil some sound ideas into the head of a non-professional First Lord. He was aware that civilians were in the habit of retorting that the business of the Admiralty had never been conducted more efficiently when a sailor was at thehead of it. The adminis tration of Lord St. Vincent had been subjected to a good deal of criticism. Now, Lord St. Vincent entered upon the duties of First Lord at a time when the fleet was in a deplorable state, but he succeeded in re- establishing discipline. He wished we had another like him to re-establish discipline now, for it had almost disappeared in our navy. He feared that as long as the navy was governed as at present no tree economy would ever be secured. It was startling to look back on the various classes of vessels which after having been constructed at great coat had been abandoned as useless. First there were the notorious "Forty Thieves," and then the " donkeys," which were made use of when the frigates were found to be failures. Lord Spencer's gunboats, called after his dogs, came next, followed in succession by Sir W. Symonds's vessels, the iron vessels and the gunboats, which. he agreed with his gallant friend opposite had better be broken up. The slip at Hasler was invented by a civil Lord of the Admiralty, who did not, it was said, consult his board at all on the subject, and his gallant friend had shown them what sort of a job he had made of it. There really ought to be a committee of inquiry into the government of the navy. Admiral WALCOTT thought the names of the contrac tors ought not to be given until the inquiry entered into was concluded. He thought the honour and reputation of this country were involved—and the lives of many officers imperilled—by the manner in which the contractors built these gunboats, and he hoped the strictest inquiry would be made to ascertain who were the guilty parties. Until that inquiry was made, however, he would pass no sentence on any one engaged in the transaction. (Loud cries of " Divide, divide.") He would do his duty in spite of any interruptions he might receive, and would speak when he thought proper, and for what time he thought proper, not withstanding their cries of " Divide, divide." THE ESTIMATES. Mr. A. SMITH asked the hon, gentleman the Secretary of the Treasury when it was intended to proceed with the Civil Service Estimates ; how soon No. 7 of those esti mates would be laid upon the table of the house, and whe ther the same would contain an estimate for the Commis sioners of Woods and Forests during the current year? Mr. LAING said he would be delighted if he could answer the first question of the hon. gentleman with respect to the Civil Service Estimates, but that was be yond his control. It would be necessary to get a vote on aecount before Whitsuntide, and then they could be afterwards discussed. With respect to No. 7, it con tained, as the hon. gentleman knew, the Miscellaneous Es timates, and it was not usual to bring them on until the end of the session. They would be printed and distributed among hon. members previously, in order that az opportu nity should be afforded to discuss them properly. With re spect to the Commissioner of Works that involved a great constitutional question, and the committee that considered the subject thought the matter ought to be left as it was settled, when the Civil List was agreed on at the accession of her Majesty. Mr. DISRAELI said the proposition of the Government with respect to a vote of credit, was one which, the house should always view with suspicion, because it was a mode by which the real examination of the country would be be evaded. tHear.) He did not say a word against its adoption by the Government, but he must protest against this course of proceeding, which ought to be looked upon as one of an entirely exceptional character, and whieh, if per. sisted in, must tend eventually to dispossess the House of Commons practically of any control over the expenditure. He was quite unaware of the particular circumstances which made such a course necessary in this instance. They might be of a satisfactory nature; but if those demands of votes of credit were only made in order to carry on business in which neither the house nor the country felt any great in terest, he thought the house would hesitate before they agreed to sanction the course proposed by the Government. ' The motion for the adjournment of the house till Mon day was then agreed to. INSPECTORS OF CUSTOMS IN CHINA. Mr. WYLD asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether the Earl of Elgin, while at Tientsin, made any arrangements with the Chinese authorities for the appointment of foreign inspectors of customs at the open ports, and reserved the right of filling eleven such ap pointments ; and, if so, why the correspondence relating to those appointments was not printed in the blue-book of his mission ; if there was any objection to lay this corres pondence upon the table of the house, together with the despatch from Lord Elgin, announcing the appointment to the Chinese Customs of the secretary to his lordship's em bassy : and, if there was any objection to lay upon the table of the house copies of the correspondence from Mr. Bruce on the subject of the Chinese Customs foreign inspectorship, especially as regards the ports of Canton and Swatow. Lord J. RUSSELL said there had been no correspon dence with the Earl of El g i n in, regard to the appointment of foreign inspectors in Chinese ports, as alluded to by the hon. gentleman to be found in the Foreign-office. There had been some correspondence with Mr. Bruce, but it chiefly related to objections made by the American Minister at Canton, and it would be inconvenient to produce it. There was no account of the appointment of Lord Elgin's secre tary to any office connected with the Chinese Customs, on the contrary, the present system appeared to work very satisfactorily at the porta which were open, but the port of Swatow was not yet open, and therefore there could be no 1 inspectorship. REFRESHMENT MOUSES AND WINE LICENSES BILL. The house then went into committee on this bill, Mr. Massey in the chair, Mr. E. JAMES moved to insert in clause 12, line 31, after the words " wine licenses," to leave out down to " re spectively" inclusive, and insert "at their discretion, and upon all or any of the grounds on which they are now en titled to refuse or disallow any license by virtue of the acts now in force regulating the granting of licenses to public houses." His object was to give to the magistrates the same power over refreshment-houses in respect to licenses which they had now as regarded public-houses. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER opposed the amendment, and said the question had been settled on the second reading of the bill. Mr. HARDY said . he would support the amendment. They had no right to get rid of the powers of themagistrates to grant licenses by a side-wind such as this was. He also ob jected to the clause as leaving out the important element of character. One from the English Government ? Was there not rather an expression of sympathy with Louis Napoleon from one whose name had been almost synonymous with the en couragement of revolution throughout the world ? " Oh, oh!" He (Mr. Maguire) said they ought to be careful in those cases in laying down principles, for no man knew how soon they might be applied to themselves. If there were any hostile feelings on the part of Ireland to wards this country, he could not see why Louis Napoleon might not fancy he heard a " cry of agony" from Cork or from Kerry, and why he might not attempt to land some 30,000 or 60,000 sympathisers with liberty on its shores. He (Mr. Maguire), as an Irishman, would be one of the first to repel such an attempt, for he abhorred the man and his rule; and, much as he might be disposed to Toad faUlt with the Government of England in dealing with Ireland, it would be one of the greatest calamities that could befall his country to allow that man, or a single soldier that fought under his banner, to set foot upon its shores. What he desired was that this country should be preserved from the machinations of a man of this kind ; and he therefore asked gentlemen to pause before they sanctioned a principle that might prove dangerous to its interests. He thought that, as the friends of liberty, they should be the last to en courage any scoundrel who was endeavouring to carry out his own private objects under the auspices of two kingly robbers, whose names would be branded with infamy when the history of these times was written. (Hear.) Mr. H. D. SEYMOUR rose to express his surprise at the speech of the noble lord the Foreign Secretary. (Hear.) With reference to that speech, he would take the liberty to mention a conversation which he had heard on the bench near him. A . friend of his had said to another hon. member, " Yoa are, of course, in favour of non-inter vention; what do you think of the noble lord's speech ?" The reply was, " Why, I think he was holding the candle.* (Hear, hear.) And that was said by a very moderate man, and a supporter of the Government. The noble lord had formed a very decided opinion upon this question, and he held out very strong encouragement to those who were willing to support Garibaldi. Lord J. RUSSELL—I gave no opinion at all. I said that each case must be judged by its own merits, but I gave no opinion whatever. (Hear, hear.) . Mr. SEYMOUR—If I understood the noble lord aright, he compared Garibaldi to William 111. of England. Lord J. RUSSELL—No; I compared Walker to Wil liam lll.—not Garibaldi. (A laugh.) Mr. SEYMOUR certainly thight, and he believed others had the same impression, that the tone of the noble lord's speech was to encourage the Sicilian insurrection, <Hear, hear.) But it now appeared that - such was not his intention. He thought the position of the Governmentof this country should be one of non-intervention. (Hear, hear.) If we encouraged Filibusters :under the impression that they were acting in the cause of liberty, the time might come when we should have the doctrine turned against ourselves. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with those who thought that if Garibaldi succeeded in his expedition to Sicily, he might easily establish there a Government better than the Neapo litan one ; but when they saw the difficulties that lay in the way of extricating Sicily from the rule of Naples, and the European complications that must arise, while their best wishes were fora better Government in Sicily, yet theymust desire that it should not be taken out of the hands of its present lawful possessors. (Hear, hear.) THE DEFECTIVE GUNBOATS. Mr. F. SMITH rose to askthe Secretary to the Admiralty if he had any objection to discontinue the breaking up of the defective gunboats till a full opportunity was afforded for thoroughly examining into their state under the direc tion of a select committee, should it be appointed. He was desirous that these gunboats should not be broken up, in order that they might have the means of ascertaining in what condition they really were. The other evening the noble lord the Secretary to the Admiralty was asked to name the contractors by whom the boats were built—a ques tion which he with his usual . good taste and judgment de clined to answer. But since then the Messrs. Green had come forward and publicly, stated in the newspapers that they were the contractors I a large number of the boats ' found to be imperfect; and they admitted the use of unsea soned timber and short bolts. The letter of Messrs. Green gave the strongest reason why there should be a committee of inquiry, and why the work of demolishing the boats should not be further proceeded with. They said : " As to the vessels being defective, we are not surprised, as many of them were built of unseasoned timber, although the best that could be got at the time, and the air excluded when they were hove up out of the water at Hasler, instead of having , a plank taken out fore and aft for ventilation, which ought to have been done." Any man who knew anything about ships would see the force of this observation. They then proceeded := " With regard to the short bolts, we beg to state that during the progress of the work we were pushed very hard by the Admiralty to complete our contract, and even threatened with legal proceedings if behind time, which compelled us to employ a large number of strange shipwrights, who worked very often night and day, and it would, therefore, be impossible for us or the Government inspector to be an swerable that every bolt was properly driven. It is admit ted by the Admiralty, in their report, that 2,202 bolts were properly driven through, and we maintain, as shipbuilders, that planks fastened with one through bolt in every other timber, with a short one between, are Liuite sufficient to se cure the safety of any vessel of war. Lloyd's require one through bolt and one short bolt in every butt, and not less than half of the trenails to be driven through, in building their highest class ships, calculated to carry heavy car goes; and, should the ship be copper-fastened, theyrequire only one half of the bolts to be through bolts, and all the rest short bolts. We complain of the Admiralty for not giv ing the contractors longer time to build these vessels, and for not having a larger staff of inspectors to superintend the work, and also for not taking proper care of them after they were duly delivered up into the charge of their authorities, ae.lording to contract, with the necessary certificates." He thought that those allegations were matters for inquiry, and therefore he was anxious that the best evidence in the case—that of the boats themselves—should not be put out of the way. He hoped the noble lord would be able to give hini the assurance that the destruction of these boats would be immediately stopped. (Hear, hear.) Sir J. ELPHINSTONE believed that these gunboats were defective in every possible respect, and as they consti tuted a species of defence of the greatest importance, he trusted that an inquiry would take place before a select committee as to how the demands of the public service for this class of vessels might be best supplied. Into the per sonal question he would not enter. It was necessary during the Russian war that gunboats should be immediately built. There was no seasoned timber to be got, and the Govern ment were obliged to have such vessels as they could procure. The Government, however, would have adopted a much more sagacious course if when the war was over they had dispensed with the services of these boats, and had directed the construction of more suitable vessels. There were 150 of these gunboats, and they constituted a description of force and a means of defence which were rendered requisite by the preparations going on elsewhere. But the existing gunboats could neither steam nor sail. They could not carry their guns in heavy weather, and they were incapable of moving from one point of the coast to the other, as and when they were required. One object of the inquiry ought to be to ascertain what-a gunboat really ought to be. (Hear,)' A friend of his, an officer of great intelligence, had fitted out a gunboat for service in a distant colony, and had sent him an account of her performances. This friend said that the merits of hisvessel might be summed up in the words that she was an excellent sea-boat and " stayed" well, but that her defects would fill a sheet of foolscap. She drew 8 ft. 6 in, of water, could not steam for more than 24 hours without interruption, and leaked like a sieve. (A laugh.) Yet this gunboat was on service, and was making her way to a dis tant colony, where she would have to defend the honour of the country. (Hear.) He had himself witnessed at Spithead the other day the extraordinary performances of one of these vessels--the Beaver, which formed one of the advanced steam reserve. The mistake made by the Admiralty was in not selling these vessels out of the service at the close of the Russian war. They would have made very good coasters, and their engines, being high pressure, would have answered very well for thrashing corn. (A laugh.) There were 40 or 60 of these gunboats hauled up at Hasler, like horses in a stable. They were drawn up by a screw, and the slightest derangement of the machinery would lock them all up, so that they might as well be in Winchester gaol. (A laugh.) It would be of the greatest advantage to inquire into the best construction of small vessels. He believed that if an Armstrong gun were put into the small swift steamboats employed on the Thames, they in'ght be painted of a tint which would render it impossible to distinguish them, at the distance they could throw shot or shell, from the water they moved upon. But the gunboats built during the Rus sian war were miserable things, and no reliance should be placed upon an arm that would be certain to, fail us in the time of need. (Hear, hear.) Lord C. PAGET was not going to defend the gunboats, or to state that they were perfect in all respects. The best proof that the Admiralty did not think them perfect was that the gunboats now in process of construction were built of a very superior form, and would constitute a much im proved armament. His hon. friend (Sir F. Smith) was mis taken if he supposed the Admiralty were breaking up these vessels. From the moment it was found they were in a de fective state the Admiralty directed them to be left, so that the contractors might see them for themselves, and with the view to any ulterior measures. With regard to the mor tar-boats at Chatham to which his hon. friend had alluded, he feared it was too late to prevent them from being broken up. As to the future, the Admiralty would leave them as they were, until it was decided what course was to be pur sued in regard to that class of vessels. Sir. C. NAPIER concurred in the opinion that this was a subject which could not be too often discussed. '(" Oh, oh," and a laugh.) It was a most important question, for on it depended the lives of our seamen and the defences of the country. (Hear.) He did not blame they.A.dmiralty for having built the gunboats, because they were urgently demanded at a period of emergency. But, as to the manner in which they had been built, Mr. Green had let the "cat out of the bag," and it appeared that the Admiralty were as much to blame as the contractors, Mr. Green alleged that the Admiralty did not provide a sufficient number ofinspec tors, although, as the work was carried on during the night, instead of fewer there should have been more of these offi cers in attendance than usual. The hon. member for Ports mouth had said very truly that these gunboats were unfit for any service but that for which they were orginally in tended—to make short voyages, not far from our own shores, and to act on an enemy's coast. If we were to go on build ing these small craft, we ought to bililt a very different sort Of vessel, He hark thou ht yrou2:'pe cafe to trust au Sir J. V. SHELLEY thought large towns were not fairly dealt with, that beer-shops generally were woll con ducted, and that magistrates should be deprived of the powers Which they now possessed. After a few words from Mr. KER SRYMER, -Sir W. JOLLIFFE said he thought that if magistrates had any power, it should be that which they now had. Mr. AYRTON supported the amendment. Mr. S. ESTCOURT thought that the competition of the proposed new system would be injurious. Sir W. MILES said the three systems of licensing would not work well together. He thought they ought to go to the division either as the friends of the bill or as its enemies. The committee divided, and the nufnbers were— For the amendment .................. 117 Against it ................. . ........ 154 Majority .................... —37 The amendment was accordingly lost. On the motion that clause 12 stand part of the bill, Sir W. JOLLIFFE objected to the whole clause. He thought that magistrates should enforce the law and police regulations, but that they should have nothing to do with granting or preventing the grant of those licenses. The clause was then agreed to. Clause 13 was also agreed to. Mr. w. MARTIN next moved that from and after the passing of the act, the 12th clause of the 24th of Geo. IL, commonly called the Tippling Act, should be repealed. After some conversation, in which Mr. Hardy, the Chan_ cellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Ayrton took part, the motion was withdrawn. Mr. HUME moved that the chairman report progress. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER objected to reporting progress. He propo&ed that they should go on, to enable them to insert the various clauses in the bill of which he had given notice. He would also agree to the insertion of the clause proposed by the hon. member for Leominster, and if the house would agree to insert theife . several clauses in the bill . they could all then be printed with the bill, which he would propose should then be recommitted, and thus the whole subject would be again brought before the house. Mr. HUME consented to withdraw his motion to report progress. The 414.NCE141.013, Qf Ule ZXcLIAQTaIi then moved a clause having relation to the fixture of a fine upon a second eonviction. After a few words from Lord FEnMOY, Sir W. MILES made a suggestion on the subject of the clause which did not reach the gallery. The clause was then added to the bill, as also several other clauses and schedules, preparatory to reprinting the bill for recommitment. Amongst these were Mr. Hardy's clauses which stood on the, parer. The house then resumed, and Monday next was fixed for bringing up the report on the bill. REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS (IRELAND) BILL. TLis bill, after a short discussion, in which Mr. HEN NESSY, Mr. CARDWELL (Secretary for Ireland), and Lord NAAS took part, was read a seeond time, the discussion to be taken upon it, and Mr. Cardwell's bill on the same sub ject on the 4th June. ROMAN CATHOLIC CHARITIES BILL. This bill, on the motion of Mr. BOWYER, was com mitted pro forma. INNKEEPERS' LIABILITY BILL. On the motion that the house go into committee on this bill, some discussion arose in which several hon. members took part, as to whether the house at so advanced an hour (half-past one o'clock) ought to go into committee. The house ultimately resolved itself into committee, when-- Sir F. GOLDSMID intimated that ho had several amendments to propose to the bill. Lord PALMERSTON suggested that the best course would be at that late hour for the Chairman to report progress, and ask leave to sit again. Mr. WHITESIDE said the bill contained only three short clauses, and that it might be disposed of now. The CHAIRMAN, after some observations by Sir F. Goldsmid, Mr. Whiteside, Mr. Stuart, and Mr. Isaac Butt, reported progress, and the house resumed. LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. WHITESIDE obtained leave to introduce a bill fOr consolidating the relations between landlords and tenant I in Ireland. SUPPLEMENTARY (NAVY) ESTIMATES. Mr. WHITBREAD brought up the Supplementary (Navy) Estimates, which were ordered to lie on the table. The other business on the paper having been disposed of the house adjourned at ten minutes to two o'clock. OLICE INTELLIGENCE—May 17. MARLBOROUGH-STREET. SIR CHARLES NAPIER AND HIS HOTJSEKEEPER.—EIizabeth Jen kins, late housekeeper to Admiral Sir Charles Napier, K.C.8., Albemarle- s t ree t, was re - exam i ne d before ir. Beadon, on a charge of embezzling va rious sums of money received by her for the pay ment of tradesmen's bills, amounting in the total to about £2OO. Mr. Wontner again attended for the prosecution, and Mr. Mant for the prisoner. Sir Charles Napier deposed that a specific sum was given the prisoner for the purpose of paying certain tradesmen's bills, which tradesmen were now to be examined, and said the prisoner had been some years in his service, and was discharged in February last, at which time, some wages being due, she was desired t o ca ll f or the amount, but had not. The accounts began to pour in next day, and had been coming in ever since, in consequence of which he applied to the police. On the 11th inst. he accompanied Sergeant Rogers to Shep herd's-bush, where he found her, and told her the tradespeople had sent in for the money. She said that the receipts and bills paid were in her trunk, left behind. He told her he had looked a nd found none, and she said he had better go and pay his debts, and he paid his debt of duty by giving her boo custody. Sometimes he paid her at the end of the month for bills which had arisen, that she might liquidate them. She was accustomed to hand him the book produced, showing how much was due to the different tradespeople. In February last year she charged himX7 16s lid as due to the grocer, and £3 12s 8d to greengrocer; to the fish monger and poulterer, £4 Os Old ; ; and to the con fectioner, £1 2s ; and he gave her the money to pal these items. In March she charged £5 7s 41d for the butcher, £7 13s 7d for fish and poultry, £7 4s 12d for confectionary, and £8 15s 2ld for grocery, and those sums he also gave her, when she signed her name, "E. Jenkins," as paid. In the following month of April she carged £5 2s Ild due to the grocer, £4 15s 6d to the fishmonger, £1 2s ld to the poulterer, and these sums he (Sir Charles) also gave her. He had heard letters had been sent him by the tradespeople ' but never received th em , an d be lieved they had been intercepted. Cross-examined—She.entered his service just be fore he went to the Baltic. Accounts. were settled all up before he left for the Baltic. There had been no rows about the money with her. He scrutinised accounts. Sometimes he paid by cheque, made out .to himself, and sometimes by cash. He regularly kept accounts, and had the books at home. Came home at the end of the year 1854 or beginning of 1855. He left his house while away to Miss Cater, begging her to let it in his absence. On his return he found the prisoner in the house. The balance each month was paid up, and generally an advance towards the ensuing one. In February, a sum of money was paid to the prisoner for servants, sweep ing ehinmeys, and other items, amounting to £6l 9s llld. Several tradesmen having given their evidence, Mary Bowen. housemaid to Sir Charles, also (11- posed that the prisoner prepared her book for Sit Charles every month. Sergeant John Rogers, 6 A, proved his appre hension of the prisoner at Shepherd's-busb, and corroborated the statement previously deposed to by Sir Charles. On searching the place he found the desk produced, containing a quantity of bills of Sir Charles, paid and unpaid, and the private letter addressed to Sir Charles now handed in. He bad much difficulty in tracing the prisoner in conse quence of her moving about from place to places and was engaged.two months in that duty. Sir Charles said he would swear that he had never received the private letter alluded to and nor shown to him. Mrs. Lawrence, recalled, put in evidence two letters, dated Horndean, from the prisoner alvut her bills due, in which she stated she would call on her when she came to town and pay up, at the same time telling her not to call or send to Albemarle street. The depositions being read over and signed, the prisoner, by direction of her solicitor, reserved her defence, and was committed for trial. THE MAILS. MAILS DUE. - Australia, Ceylon, and Mauritius (via South ampton)• May 19. Do. • (via Marseilles) June 4. Bahamas and Havana (via New York) .. June 7. Canada, &c. (via Co r k) May 16. Cape of Good Hope, &c. .. June 1. China, Penang, and Singapore (via S'ampton) May 19. Do. ( v i a Marseilles) May 27. Gibraltar (via Southampton) . • • May 19 . India (Calcutta), Ceyl on , & c . (via Southampton) May 19. Do. (via Marseilles)-, May 27. India (Bombay), (via Southampton) .. May 25. Do. (via Marseilles) May 19. Lisbon, Brazils, Buenos Ayres, &c. .. • .. June 5. Lisbon, Vigo, and Oporto .. .. May 21. Malta, Egypt, and Aden (via Southampton) .. May 19. Do. (via Marseilles) May 19. United States, Californi a , &c. (pia Cork) .. May 16. Western Coast of Africa, Madeira, Teneriffe .. May 10 West Indies and Pacific, Carthgena, Cuba, &c. May 29. A report recently addressed to Sir 0. Wood by Mr. W.Purdon, C.E., executive engineer in the Punjaub, affords the following testimony to the remunerative charac ter of the Punjaub Railway :—" The remarkably favourable nature of the country ever which this line is to run and its low cost as compared with other lines in India,'will enable it to carry at much lower rates than elsewhere. So great is the passenger traffic over this line of country that it will probably be found as much as the railway can deal with; this kind of traffic, as a question of dividend, is the most remunerative." BIRTHS. BOOSEY.—On the 15th inst , at 50, Pembridge-villas,West bourne-grove, the wife of Charles Boosey, of Hadley, of a son. GERMAN.—On the 16th inst., at 63, Inverness-terrace, Kensington-gardens, the wife of Captain German, of a daughter. LEVERSON.—On the 16th inst., the wife of Montague It. Leverson, of 14, Marlborough-road, London, N.W., of son. SAYER.—On the 11th inst., at Gibraltar, the wife of Capt. Frederick Sayer, of a son. YELTIRTON.—On th e 7th i nst. , at 2, Smithgreve-terrace, Cork, the wife of Major the Hon. William Yelvon ton, of a son. ARRAGES. CUMMING—COOKE M On the 14th inst., at the Church of St. Gabriel' s , Warwick-square, Pimlico, Hugh Mac pherson Cumming, Esq., to Emma Spencer Mary, only child of T. P. Cooke, Esq., of 38, Woburn-square, and Ryde, Isle of Wight. OAKELEY—PARSONS.—On the 16th inst., at St. James's Church, Piccadilly, Sir Charles William Atholl Oakeley, Bart , to Ellen, only child of John Meeson Parsons, Esq., of Angley Park, Cranbrook, and Raymond's-buildinga l Gray's-inn. DEATS. • BYRON.—On the 16th inst., at H 11, St. George's-terrace, Regent's-park, Anne Isabella, Baroness Noel Byron, widow of the late Lord Byron. BARRINGTO2I.—On the 16th inst., at. 19, Eaton-place i the Hon. A.uguatus Barrington, second surviving son of George, fifth Viscount Barrington, in the 62d year of his age. PALIC.—On the 16th-inst., at Haldon House, Exeter, Sir Lawrence Vaughan Palk, Bart., aged,67. TOTTIE.—On. the 10t11 inst., at Leeds, Thos, Win. Tottie, Esq., aged 87. VYVYAN.—On the 14th inst., at St. Helier's, Jersey, Col. Richard Vyvyan, late of Trewar-park, Cornwall. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of 'the Savoy, in the oewitY of Middleea, Friday, Nay It3i, 1860,, _ Rt ,-- fo