The Sun. — London, England, 1829-03-24 00:00:00

that wise course by Which they had been hitherto distin guielod, they had recourse to that method of expressing their opinions, which is now designated the petition of the Graduates. If this were not the case, how came it that the Duke of Cumberland, the Chancellor of the Uni versity, the Archbishop of Dublin, and the seven Prelates of Ireland connected with the University, came before that House a petitioners under the name of Graduates.— ( Hear, hear.)—He believed that very great efforts had been made to prevail upon the University to petition against the Catholics, and that to the failure of these at tempts might be traced the present petition. If, however, thet petition hail to be signed on that evening, he believed, from recent events, that a great number of the present signatures would cot appear upon it. The petition was then ordered to be printed. Sir HENRY SMITH presented a petition from the pa rish of Beaumont and St. Beatres, in Essex," against con cession to the Catholics. Mr. C ITRTEIS presented a petition from the Archdea coury sf Ewhurst, from Uckfield, and from the Dissenters of Portsdown, against the Catholics. Sir T. LETIIBRIDGE, in presenting a petition from the town of Ilininster in favour of the Catholics, expressed his determination to persevere in that course which he conceived to be beneficial to the interests of the empire, in spite of all the threats and denunciations with which ho might be assailed. He had received threats from all quarters upon the subject of the course he had taken ; but, he repeated, he was determined to persevere in spite of those, and in defiance, too, of the attacks of the malignant portion of the press. He could not, indeed, avoid taking the opportunity to state, that the privileges of the Mem bers of that House had been attacked by the venal press in a manner which he thought inconsistent with the ho nour of that House or the dignity of its Members. He had been maligned and traduced in consequence of his opinions on this question, in a manner which would jus tify his moving for leave to summon the offenders to the bar of that House; and he was confident, if he did bring the offenders to the bar, that the House would visit them with its displeasure, and with such a punishment as these attacks upon its character and upon the character of its 31ember8 deserved.—(Hear, hear.)—He was sensible he had another remedy for their attacks, as far as they re garded him. He could appeal to a jury of his country men, and lie had no doubt they would award him that sa tisfaction to which he was entitled for these malignant spersions.—(Hear, hear.)—To neither of these tribunals was it his intention to appeal ; but he could not avoid say ing that a power was exerted by this part of the press over the freedom of debate in that Rouse, which was in consistent with the liberties of the country, and with the privileges of the Members of a British Parliament— ( Hear, hear.)—An Hon. Member near him suggested that the same power was arrogated by that vart of the press which espoused the other side of the (motion ; but he be lieved it would be difficult to show any thing which could prove they had followed the example of those whose con duct formed the subject of his observation!. The petition was ordered to be printed. Mr. GUEST presented a petition from the town of Pembroke in favour of the Catholics. Mr. THOMAS ESTCOURT presented a petition from the Wesleyan Methodists of Marlborough, against concession. The ilerquis of CHANDOS presented a similar peti tion from the Hundreds of Buckingham and Missenden, and from parishoe in Down, Perth, Armagh, and Dumfries. Lord ROBERT MANNERS presented a similar peti tion from Kettleby, in Leicestershire. Mr. G. BANKES, in presenting a petition signed by upwards of 600 of the Undergraluates and Bachelors of Arts of the University of Cambridge, observed that he be lieved, and was informed, although he could not teke upon himself to assert it, that those who signed the petition were majority of the persons of that class belonging to the University. The number, however, would have been much larger hut for the opposition of the Heads of the University, who had used every exertion to prevent the 'Members of the Colleges from signing the petition. After a few words from Mr. BATLEY, Mr. MINYSON, and %Ir. G. BA. NK vc, the petition was ordered to beprinted. Mr. JAMES BROWNE presented six petitions from different paces in the county of Mayo, in favour of the Catholic Clainns.—To he printed. CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL. On the Motion of Mr. PEEL, the Order of the Day for the House to go into Committee on the Catholic Re lief Bill was read. On the question, that the Speaker should leave the chair, General GASCOYNE said, that he did not rise for the purpose of opposing the Speaker's leaving the Chair ; but be had to propose a motion by way of instruction to the Committee, and which he bed only deferred, because on no previous day could he have brought the motion for ward. The preamble stated, that " Whereas by various Acts of Parliament ;" but what those Acts were did not appear there, it was clear that many Acts now e - 4ating meat be repealed, and he wanted to know what those Ails were. One thing to him was quite clear, that the object of this Act was to evade the Act of Union with Scotland. He should not press the emotion that he was about to make to a divieion—(hear, hear),.--bait he would venture to say, that if his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Peel) would consider the substance of this motion, he would have no objection to adopt it. lie should, therefore, only state what his motion was, and theeeby give 'his Right Hon. Friend an opportunity of either refusing - pr accepting it. His motion was, " That it be an instruction to the Corn mine to inquire into, and distinctly specify what exiretitig Acts are, or will lie repealed, altered, or infringed upon, by the propose! alteration and declaration in the preamble of the Bill." Mr. PEEL thought his Hon. Friend must see that there was considerable objection to his motion, in the present rage of the Bill. His Hon. Friend, therefore, would jet-hates allow the House to negative his motion without a tivision, or consent to its being withdrawn. Geueral GASCOYNE in eoresequence of what had fallen from his Right Hon. Friend, would not then press his motion, but would take an opportunity of saying something further on the subject in the Committee. The motion was accordingly withdrawn ; and the Homee went into Committee, Mr. ERANKLAND LEWIS in the Chair. Mr. BANKES rose for the purpose of proposing as an Amendment to the preamble, that after the word " sub scribed" the words ..c as qualification for sitting and opt ing in Parliament, and for the enjoyment of offices, fran chisee, and civil rights" should be lett out. His main ob ject had always been to prevent the Admission of the Ca tholic-8 into the two Houses of Parliament. What he wished was, that the Bill should specifically state such offices as the Roman Catholics should have power of holding. Mr. G. MOORE said, it was not his intention to talc* the question up upon what might be called antiquated notions by the other side of the House, but he would meet the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) on his own ground. The first point for consideration was, what was the cause rat the desire Catholics had to get into Parliament? The next, how, far, after obtaining that boon, they would be deeirous of altering the Constitution ? And, thirdly, what power they would possess to carry that desire into effect ? it could not be .denied that the Roman Cotholic Church of Ireland had in this measure an ulterior oh j, et; that that object was to elevate itself, and to degrade the Protestant Church, This was what they learned on all occasions, through the mouths, not only of the Catholic Clergy, but of the Cathegio Laity. In short, it was quite clear, that they looked upon Catholic Emancipation as a step---and as a very remote step-eeof -what it was their object tonetain. He besought the House !o consider how a small party in that House might inter fere with the proceedings of Parliantent. By acting in a email, compact, and united petty, they might materially thwart said annoy Government. He would tefeee to the effect of the conduct .f Mr. Wilberforce, and those solo) Acted with hint in 17934 oesed he need not enumerate other i n stances in which important w e eosures had been accom plished by parties acting in concert alai with perseverance. He did not expect to see a Roman Ceti:Mi s s party, should Roman Catlsolies be admitted into that House e ceeesperating with the party he supporting the Protestant Cor.etitacon in that House. He % would only refer to the power of a Member moving an adjooroment, to chew that though a great number of Roman Catholics might not obtain seats, yet that even a few acting in en uses;ol body might effect eouch. if the cry of " hear, hear," was meant to convey that a motion for adjournment had been eorted to by those who oppoeeel his Majesty's Government on this gots, Sion, he would say that such a mode had not bean reeOrted to. There was nothing of ieetious opposition in the te alet once thet they offered to this meeepre. He only adduced the argumeut to prove that the power of moving an ad journment continually sometimes had tire etfect (as it hid last Session respecting a measure of the ChanCeleleseoef the Exchequer's for building Churches) of defeating a releases:se altogether. Fur these reasons he would support the amend ment of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Bankea.) Mr. Secretary PEEL commenced by expressing his sahniration of the good temper and moderation with which the two Hon. Gent. who spoke last hail advanced the argu ments adduced in support of the course which they recom mended for the adoption of the [louse. The force cf those arguments would lose none of their power from the mode ration with which they were urged, The main point 'vorriended for in the speeches of both speakers was, that some danger 'aria to be apprehended from the admission of Roman Catholics to seats in that House. He (Mr. Peel) admitted, and always had contended, that some danger was to he apprehended. He was still of that opinion ; but the question now was, whether, on a comparison of dangers, greater danger was not to be dreaded from excluding Roman Catholics from that House, than from admitting them to it—(Hear) ?--Would it not be a greater source of danger that this leading and essenti•el part of the measure of relief should be withheld, if Roman Catholics were to be admitted to an equality of civil privileges in ether respects, than that seats in Parliament should be conceded to them ? If all other civil disabilities were removed, and the disqua lification to sit in Parliament were only retained, the measure of relief would, in the first instance, be ineffec tual to give content to those for whose benefit the mea sure was intended ; and, secondly, the privileges which they would obtain watuld only render them more anxious, and invest them with increased means and additional power for the attainment of the object from which they were debarred.—(Cheers. )—The Hon.Alember for Dorset chile had placed the argument precisely on the same basis, on which it truly stood—namely, that there was such a union between the Clergy and Laity of the Catholic Body, and that the Laity were so devoted to the views and pur poses of the Clergy, that when admitted to that House they would endeavour to give effect to the ulterior objects of the Clergy. This union, in Ireland, he (Mr. P.) be lieved to exist in consequenceof the disqualification and ex clusion under which the Laity and Clergy suffered. They were bound together by a community of common griev ances—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear")—and when that bond, cemented by disqualifying laws, was dissolved, there was good reason to expect, from the state of society in other countries, that the s t me alliance would not subsist. Looking to France and the Netherlands, where an equality of civil riOits prevailed, they did not see that close alliance and attachment subsisting between the Laity and Clergy that existed in Ireland. This shewed at least that this Gentleman had better be postponed until another oppor tunity. Mr. G. MOORE observed, that the clause contained the words, " professing the Roman Catholic religion." What were the means to be relied upon as a test of that profession ? If a Roman Catholic came in secretly to that House, what was to prevent him from taking the other oaths ? He might thus sit and vote, without having af forded to Parliament or the nation any security. Mr. PEEL replied, that in the third page of the Bill there was a distinct enactment that no person professing the Roman Catholic religion should be capable of sitting or voting in either House of Parliament, unless lie had first taken and subscribed the oaths appointed and set forth in the Act ; and that if he sat and voted without having taken those oaths, he should be subject to the same penal ties, forfeitures, and disabilities which at present attached to any person sitting and voting in either House of Parlia ment without having taken the oaths required by law. As to the words " professing the Catholic religion," Ca tholics were in former Acts of Parliament described in different ways, sometime,. as Catholics, sometimes as Papists, &c. He had thought it best to apply the same designation to them throughout the whole of the present measure. Mr. G. MOORE again urged the necessity of some test. Mr. LESLIE FOSTER observed that the object of the Bill was to let Catholics into Parliament, not to exclude them from it. Mr. G. MOORE said that they were to be kept out unless they took the prescribed oath. They were legi slating on the supposed necessity of that security ; and if there were no test, the law might be evaded. Mr. STURGES BOURNE thought the oaths required in the clause were sufficient. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, that the Catholics community of interest and feeling between the Laity and would he under the same penalties as Protestants. Clergy formed no principle of the Roman Catholic religion, Sir R. INGLIS said a few words respecting the exclu and it was a fair ground of expectation to presume that sion of Catholics in Holy Orders from Patliament. the same cause—equality of civil rights—would produce Mr. PEEL said, that so far as persons in Holy Orders a corresponding effect in Ireland, and dissolve the intimate were concerned, they were more effectually excluded by union at present subsisting between these two eastres in the present Bill than that which the Hon. baronet pro that country. He was at a loss to perceive how some P 3 sed• Hon. Members could alone see danger in the admission o f Mr. W. W. WYNN referred to the Act of 41 Geo. Catholics to seats in that House, and could see no danger 111. on the subject. in the repeated declarations of Protestant majorities of Mr. F. LEWIS thought it better to discuss the point that Hi use, during the last sixteen years, in favour of Ca- when the clause relating to it was under the consideration tholics. Was there no danger to be even in four out of five of the House. successive Parliaments deciding in favour of relief—in Mr. HUSKISSON thought the words naming the pointing cut the grievances under whirls Roman C a th o li cs former oaths required of Catholics might be omitted. suffered—in creating a sympathy in their behalf—in excit The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said there was no ab ing their hopes, and keeping alive the excitement which salute necessity for the words ; they were inserted merely 'these hopes and the constant discussion of their claims to shew where the subject had been taken up, as well as created. He was at a loss to perceive how Honourable the nature of the exchange. Gentleman could be alone alive to the power which the Mr. PEEL thought the words merely surplusage and introduction of some Catholic Members into that House might be omitted. would confer, and appear insensible to the great and ma- Sir E. KNATCHBULL wished to know if persons be terial power which they enjoyed (of which that Meu se h a d longing to religious societies were to be excluded from recent experience) by the elective franchise, which, as it Parliament? was under the controul of spiritual influence, that in- Mr. PEEL deferred answering the question till the fluence, he believed, would be greatly diminished by the clause relating to the exclusion of priests was before the proposed regulation of the elective qualification—(hear).— House. and he would ask Hon. Gentlemen fairly to consider, who- Mr. H. GRATTAN wished to know if the exclusion ther that regulation could be effectively established if not by the words of the clause, at the table of the Mouse, accompanied by the measure of concession ? He would would be final and conclusive ? here again refer to what had fallen from his Hon. Friend, Mr. PEEL said, that if a Catholic were returned to the Member for the University of Oxford (Sir R. highs), Parliament previous to the Act, bile claims would not be that twenty-three counties in Ireland were ready to imi- prejudged. His case stood better than before, as he was tate the example of the county of Clare. If such were uow in such a case obliged to take only the oath of the state of society and of feeling throughout Ireland, what supremacy. advantage could be expected from Ireland, if a general Mr. S. RICE was authorized to state by a certain in election were to Wee place, by those who were opposed dividual, that he trusted the Act would be discussed with-- to the measure of concession?—(Hear.) Besides, lion, out reference to him. He did not wish his individual case Gentlemen should consider, who had such an anxiety f or to prejudice the general reeasure.—(Hear, hear.) the preservation of the interests of the Church, that it Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought the question of being was not necessary that Members returned now to Par- elected, and that of sitting in Parliament to be two dis liament were in communion with the Church of Eng- tinct questions. Were a person elected who was not quell land. All that was now necessary was, that the Mein- fied to be returned to Parliament, a Committee would de ber returned to Parliament should abjure the tenets dare that he was not duly elected ; but being duly elected, of the Church of Rome. This was all required of him ; then came the question of the oaths required of him, and ea(' provided they abjured these tenets, there might be sent if those oaths were taken he was fully competent to sit in to that Hone° as bitter enemies to the Church of England that House and vote. This equally affected those who had as might be. He saw greater danger in this state of things been elected as well as those who might be elected here than in the proposed change; for, after all, he admitted after. Such was the nature of the Act of Charles 11. that it was a compromise of dangers, and the adoption o f At present the situation of the House was very much that course which was less dangerous thau a perseverance changed, for last year Parliament declared, that persons in the present system. After re-asserting that the change professing the Catholic Religion were not to sit in Perlis in the elective qoelification could not be made without the ment, and now it was about to declare that they might sit measure of relief, and that the Roman Catholics would and vote. It was very unfair that by the present measure, be less objects of apprehension when their grievances were of two persons professing the Catholic Religion at the removed, the Right Hon. Gentleman proceeded to advert table of the House, one elected, for instance, in 1829, to the argument of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Moore) as to the would lie received into the House, whilst one elected in denger that would result from a small party of Catholics 1848 would be rejected. This appeared to him an anomaly. acting as a cooseact and united body for the attainment of Mr. PEEL said, that if a case should occur of an in objects peculiar to themsalvev. Without undertaking to dividual being returned without any reference to this Act, determine what might be the effect of :mph a small party and before the Act was in contemplation, and he refused to acting in such a way—of which, however, he did not en- take the oaths required at the time of his election, he saw tertein the same apprehension as his Hon. Friend—of this no injustice whatever in rejecting him. If the individual he was sure, that if any body of Catholics should attempt could establish his right to sit and vote by the law as it to advance thew k eceliar interests, and to give them a pre- stood when he was elected, nothing could be more unjust ference over the general views and interests of the House, than to exclude him. The Act had been drawn up care from the feelings which were now described to exist through fully, so as not to affect such an individual. out the country, they would be met by an overwhelming Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Act of Charles 11. ap resistance which must eff e ctually defeat such an attempt. plied to all persons being then Members. (Hear, tear.) —The instance adduced by his Honourable Mr. PEEL said, that by the present state of the law Friend of the uppositien given by Mr. Wilberforce and a Catholics were not excluded from the House. If they took small party in 1795 resisting toe cenduct of Government the oaths, they were admitted. in endeavouring to bring about a peace, was no t a ease Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD could not conceive it certainly in point, to prove the influence of a small party, to he the intention of the law to extend a penal act by re fer peace was concluded in 1803, and was effected by other trospection, mea r res then by the interference of Mr. Wilberforce and Mr. H. GRATTAN had made no reference to any in his party. The sacramental Test, at the time of its repeal, dividual ;he had spoken solely with reference to time wishes it was said, would be atieneled with imminent dangers, of the people. The question had better be decided in that but none of them had been realized, nor wae there now House than out of doors. He would move a verbal amend any apprehension of their being so. He would refer to a ment.—(Cries of no, no.) precedent more apposite to the present case—namely, to Lord DTJNCANNON had intended to propose a verbal the prooheciaa which were put forth at the time of the amendment on the subject, but he had been requested not Scotch Union. lit WS; then said of the Presbyterians, es to do so by the individual whom it most concerned. it was now of the Catholics, that they would form them- Mr. GRATTAN consented to withdraw his motion. selves into a small party; but, op the contrary, all these The motion for the omission of the words " instead of prophecies were falsified, and instead of forming a separate taking oaths against transubstantiation, the invocation of end distinct phalanx, the Presbyterians arranged themselvee paints, as practised by the Church of Rome," was then on diieverent sides of the House, and attached themselves to pot and carried, ordinary parties, without regard to religious partialities. Col. SIBTHORPE asked the Right Hon. Secretary a He hoped and expected that the Roman Catholics world questio n inaudible in the g aller y . be found arranging themselves L. a similar manner, and Mr. Secretary PEEL said, his answer to the Hon. that the dangers anticipated by his Hoc,. Friend would Member was short, and, as lie conceived, decisive. if a Catholic Member was introduced to that House, he would net ba realized.—(Hear, hear.) , Mr. ROT rose, amid cries of " Question , quea• haye to take the oath proposed in this Bill; but if a con -1 , T tion." Ile said that if Catholics were admitted into Par- cealed Catholic was to present himself, and attempt to liament, he thought a far greater number would find their take his seat as a Protestant, they he would have to take way into that House than was generally supposed. In the oath of supremacy, which would be ten times more 1825, it had been stated by his Right liOn. friend, that binding upon him than the other.—(Hear, hear.) about 25 would obtain admission, but there would he 4 Mr. BUTLER CLARKE said a few words, which I site ells larger infusion of Roman Catholic Members. They were inaudible in the Gallery. should ;t .amber that there were Roman Catholics in Mr. Secretary PEEL observed, that the proposed Bill England as wc4i as in Ireland, who were possessed of con. expressly excluded all acknowledgment of the civil rights siderable wealth. La u ds, s. the Catholic Association, of the Pope in these realms. This wag dope in En g land by the Act of Elizabeth, but it was not done in Ireland Lord Shrewsbury was censured io, nut haying sent four or until the reign of William, in 1692 ; so that the argument five Members into Parliament. They simedd alee consider the effeet of that Roman Catholic conspiracy which they of his Hon. Friend did not apply. were told by the Hon. Member for Cornwall (Sir R. Vy- bl i v. c-. MOORE was of opinion, that there ought to 1 sci^' sae- of she temporal jurisdiction the tion, prevailed thw e eilsout Europe.—(Cries of " Ques •be a decided m S '74, - of tion, question.") Court of Rome. Colonel LINDSEY thought that tile edcmleeion of Ca- Mr. HOLDSWORTU thought it advisable te have theilice into Parliament would be a great security e ee t o e r oath proposed as a test against the authority of the _... Protestant Establishment. Pope. The Committee then divided : Mr. Secreiary PFFL thought the proposed clause For the Amendment Against it ... s , . 207 After a few words hem Mr. B. CLARKE, Majority —425 Mr. HOLDSWORTH thought the principle upon Mr. LOCK HART took it for granted that it was not eshieh he acted right, and he was determined to act intended, n the present case, that a Roman Catholic Priest upon it. should sit or vote iii Parliament. He had heard that a Sir E. K N ATCHBULL said, it - e ve:, neither his in- Catholic Priest, having been Gill:sine(' by a Bishop, might, tention nor his will' to embarrass the'questien, and ;44 in the event of his abjuring the Catholie eeltion, be ad- hoped his Hun. Fri end would not press his clause. ' lie ' , flitted to officiate as a Protestant Clergyinan. ;Vieerp could not, however, help observing, that the enactment of enie ses•es laid down he knew not. It certainly formed no a dis r k'eaen oath fpr Catholic and Protestant Members of part of the ;.aw of the land. There ought, however, to that House, wisold c i ettsc a diseonnection, not only be be a more full expos;tion of the meaning of Parliament in tween the King and the 'State, but bowel:, th e Ch ere l t e the present Bill. To the phrase, "being in all other re- and the Constitution. spects duly qualified," there ought to fee apTe addition, Mr. Secretary PEEL and General GASCOYNE said a few excluding persons being in holy orders. words, after which Mr. Secretary PEEL could give the Hon. Gentleman fir. PIetILLIMORE opposed the amendment, and .catesew e ee satisfaction on that point. The Act of the 41st maintained t 1 e'Ceoeficie.l cffgzts of the original motion. of the King 4ecleeed that ito person in holy orders, should The clause was then withdraws,. be qualified to sit arssi !sesta in that House. The first ins- Mr. BATLEY was anxious to propose a clause omit pression was, that that would be .eacu,,_' , l4 to provide against pelling Roman Ca tholic» to swear that the y would de the introduction of a Roman Catholic nleegyinaie. But at fend the church property as established by law, including the end of the Act to which he bad alluded a cetlaip 4e- gleles lands, and the rights and other properties of the eerie,tiesn of evidence was required, as prima fade evi- chiircit, dence, hat the individual excluded on that ground had I Mr. Secretary VEEL rerereed `ee t.le clauses of the Act, officiatediu .the ,C'eatietsb M England or in the Church of and maintained that the wot ds `‘''civ4 - an 4 re ;i g ;orie Scotland; s.chich ;hewed that the Act did not contemn- rights" included every right that ought to be maintained. plate, and could 5,,t be appliid to the Roman Catholic 1 Mr. BATLEY persisted in moving his clause. priesthood. He granted that no doubt oeght te ,44 taloteed ! Sir R. INGLIS said a wor d or two , which we coul d .f 9 exist on the subject ; for no one would contend that a ' esoe oelleet in the gallery. Rowe:: Catholic should have any advantage in that respect ; 10'0'51 1 .1.rii.QN olsserved, that the Act oath alluded to over a Pieteslaelt Clergyman. He had a clause in his by some Hon. ''. Mended a, IF , e; different as it affected hand which it was his :sa.`sention to introduce, providing English and Irish Members apprOaeliing that as ietse , ill that no person in Orders belonging ;o the Church of Rome l D r . LUSHINGTON observed, that the words con should he capable of sitting and voting in .f. g e t 1 - ,!ouse•— tain e d i n the p ro posed Bill were sufficient t o sa ti s fy a ll That wrath! completely meet th e Hon. Gent's. 01 laCtioa , - amens acquainted with the Courts of Law or Equity. Mr. BUTLEit Cii,,ARK.E, adverting to the declaration Theie was a mp:a p 7 . ? .vision for the protection of th e co de. in th e p ro p o sed oath, that tiee ?'one had no spiritual au- siastical and civil piopeity em la , the c„frel. - But who ever. dimity ip this country, objected to thoec words, it being thought that the civil property of the church stood opon well known that he had such authority. a different footing from any other civil property ?-4Heara) Mr. Secretary PEEL observed, that the discussion of —it was upon this ground that he opposed the clause. so extensive a subject as that alluded to by the Honourable 'Mr, SUGPEN concurred with his Hon, and Learned • Friend as to the lot of the case, and opposed the clause Upon the same grotinds. The Committee then divided— For the Amendment Against it Majority --162 On our re-entrance we found Mr. ESTCOURT proposing an alteration in the Oath prescribed by the Bill ; the words at present were—" And I do hereby disclaim, disavow, and solemnly abjure any in tention to subvert the present Church Establishment as settled by law within this realm." After the word " subvert" he wished to add the following—" And I do solemnly swear, that I will sot, directly or indirectly, at tempt to subvert or injure," &c. Mr. PEEL referred to the terms of the oath and of the declaration by which it was preceded, and thought that coupling them together they afforded as much protection as the oath in the altered form, suggested by the Hon. Member. He begged to refer the Committee to the terms of Dr. Duigenan's oath, in 1793, which ran thus :—" I do hereby disclaim, disavow, and solemnly abjure any in tention to subvert the present Church establishment, fur the purpose of substituting a Catholic establishment in its stead." The objection made to this form was that it al lowed a Catholic to entertain an intention of subverting , the Protestant Church provided he d.d not mean to sub stitute a Catholic Church for it. Hence he had required in the oath of the present Bill a positive abjuration of any intention to subvert, for that or any other purpose. However reluctantly, he must oppose the Amendment. Mr. O'NEILL supported the Amendment. Mr. C. PELHAIII considered the Roman Catholics in the light of prisoners at the bar, and would therefore con strue every thing literally. At the same time, when he saw great dangers he must provide, if possible, adequate remedies; and although he supported the Amendment, he did not wish to throw needless obstacles in the way of the Bill. Mr. PEEL reminded the Committee that they were to look at the oath as it related to Members of Parliament, and to consider whether it was not sufficient, united with what was required by the Bill repealing the Sacramental Test. Mr. WYNN was unwilling to add to the length of the oath, as it would lessen its effect. Mr. C. PALLMER supported the Amendment. Mr. ESTCOURT thought the addition necessary, and must divide the Committee, for the satisfaction of those who placed confidence in him. The Committee then divided. For the Amendment 99 Against it 261 Majority -162 Oa our re-admission, we found Dr. PHILLIMORE proposing an Amendment, which had for aject the inclusion in the oath of the Church EstabliAments of England and Scotland. Mr. PEEL resisted it, on the ground that the terms were sufficiently general and explicit. Mr. MOORE then proposed as an amendment, to add the words from his Majesty's Speech, which recommended that securities should be provided for the Bishops and Clergy, and Established Church. Alter a few words from Mr. PxEL, Lord Mwroar, Lord STANLEY, and others, shewing the Hon. Member that his object was provided for by a former clause, and that the Amendment would put out the words the Pro testant Church, the amendment was withdrawn. Sir W. SAVILLE LUMLEY suggested, af.er twelve o'clock, that the House should adjourn.—(Cries of " Go on.")—The Hon. Member then recommended Members not to employ themselves in suLstituting one word for another. Sir ROBERT INGLIS then proposed an Amendment, which went to compel the candidate to declare that he did not believe any perm could absolve him from perjury, which was negatived without a divi'ion. " The United Kingdom" was substituted for " this Kingdom," and several verbal alterations were made, after which the clause was agreed to. One other clause, relating to a matter of form, was also agreed to. Lord CHANDOS proposed that the Committee should then be adjourned. - Mr. STURGES BOITRNE complained of the practice of always adjourning at twelve o'clock. It was not the practice of the House at former times. Lord CHANDOS thought it was a proper time to adjourn, when the House had been engaged in business since half-past six o'clock. Sir R. FERGUSSON hoped the discussion would be continued in a temperate manner, but he was compelled to say that he bad then sat in that House for 22 years, and never before saw such a factious opposition. Sir E. KNATCHBULL vindicated himself and the party from the charge of a factious Opposition. He would not contrast the present proceedings with former proceed ings, but te was sure that it was his desire that the oppo sition should be temperately conducted, white he was sure that the proceedings of his Majesty's Government would be conducted on fair principles, so far as the opposition was concerned. He understood the arrangement to be, that the Committee should again commence its sittings at six o'clock this day, and in this arrangement he acquiesced. Sir R. FERGUSSON was understood to say that he was sorry if he said any thing which might tend to render the discussions intemperate. Mr. MOORE declared, that if there were a factious opposition, he did not belong to it. The House then resumed, and the other Orders of the Day being disposed of, the House adjourned at a Quarter to One. PARLIAMENTARY REPORTING. (From the Times.) In consequence of some rumours which had reached our ears respecting partialities in the reports given in this Journal, of the speeches on the great question now under discussion in Parliament, we referred to our reporters, and we publish the following statement, drawn up by one of those gentle men with the concurrence of the rest. Our readers may rely upon its accuracy : " Some complaints have reached us that a difference is made in the reports in this paper, between the speeches delivered for and those against emancipation in Parliament,— that the latter are abridged, while the former are given at considerable length. This complaint is utterly without foundation ; and for the truth of our assertion, we appeal with confidence to the character which this Journal has maintained for the general fidelity of its reports without reference to party, or to our own particular views on any of the subjects which arise in Parliament. The length or brevity of the report of a speech often depends on circum stances ever which we have no controul—,the tone in which it may have been delivered-411e state of the House during its delivery, or the lateness of the hour at which it may have been spoken. When impediments do not arise from any of these causes, speeches are invariably given at a length proportioned to the importance of the particular subject in debate, or the station and importance of the speaker with respect to that subject—but never with re ference to the side he may take. That all the speeches in a debate of 10 or 12 hours cannot be given at full length, will be read;ly admitted when we state no paper of our ordinary size' could' contain them, eyes to the exclusion of all other matter. This being the case, the only practi cable mode of giving a debate is to give the principal speeches at each side fully, and to condense the others a sinq . le - .: preseryinz as much as possible the sithitanee of the principal points of eacti. " One of the complaints to which we'refer is, that the speech of Mr. Sadler appeared at greater length in Other journals than in ours. It did so,—but that was not owing to aby (Tr part to withhold from the public any - of Mr; Sadleris 'argot:net+. We stated 4 the tope that, from the tone in whjch the Hon Member spdke &OM under the gallery, and from another cause, to which it is unnecessary again to allude, Mr. Sadler was very hlls heard by the Reporters, and we find a 'similar state , inerit•to the .iStoniq i4iral4 . , In all pap? could be heaV(l, his observations were given Withoiit abridgment. We will shortly explain the reason why Mr: Sadler's speech was so much longer in other journals than in Ours : W. a;.?irt that a copy of a speech was sent by Mr. Si:d;e' h i'tae evelnog, on milieu tie ofiltedsea the ti01,g , 4 to a Morning Journ4l of anti',.CathOlic principhs, frinn which it was communicated to others ; and we further assert, that the speech so sent differed in many material respects from the speech actually delivered. On this latter point we appeal to lion. Members who were present, and nsl,- - whether the fact be not as we assert it. Indeed, we 12a a te'ai,ql to ty, frtms the Hon. Member's own ad mission, that the . par of spee . .: l !l, as Oven in this Journal, were what he did 53y and We ''4lbo that they were essentially different from what appeared to have been printed in two other Journals from his own a an uscri pt." Member spoke very low and indistinctly in tWs Oft. an 1 genezailj thimlghptlt his Morning Herald. MOORE has a new Musical Work in a state of cnnOderable forwardncsg, which he designates " Leyen wl Many of the old Melodies are se l ected by himself, and others suppli e d and hairoonized by Sir Jo (tory Ballads." STE vErrsoN, hi 4 old friend and Coadjutor. FOREIGN INTELLIGRATCE. FRENCH PAPERS. (From the Messager des Chansbres, March 21.) EXTRACTS FROM THE GERMAN JOURNALS. Letters from Vienna, of the 12th of March, say that a report had suddenly been spread, that the Ambassadors of France and England had received from their respective Courts orders to leave Naples and repair to Constantinople. Nobody can tell whence this news came, or on what it is founded ; but it is certain that it has gained so much credit as to cause a rise in the funds, which, however, might be attributed with more reason to a reduction of the discount to 4 per cent., which was to be taken into consideration the following day in a general assembly of the bank proprietors. His Majesty the Emperor, by an autograph letter, has conferred on Colonel Count Dandolo the rank of General of the Austrian navy. Letters from Navarin of the 13th of February have been received, which, announcing the departure of General Maison, which at that time was supposed to be certain, with only part of the French troops, says, that a number of French officers and subalterns will remain in the Mores to form and instruct the Greek Aroop.; but whatever ad , vantages may be offered them in Greece, those officers are very unwilling to renounce, even for a time, the service of their own country. They have agreed to it only on conditions that they shoiald retain their rank and seniority in the French army. Subsequent accounts contradict the departure of General Maison, lately appointed Marshal of France. So high a rank is not suitable to the command of so small a division of 5,000 or 6,000 men, which remain in the Morea under the command of General Durieu. Hence it is inferred, that the French Ministry has entirely changed its first plan, and that in the beginning of spring fresh transports will leave Toulon, to convey to the Morea an army twice as numerous as that which went there last year. It is confirmed from all quarters, that Demetrius Ypsi lanti had made very rapid progress in Thessaly. In consequence of the occupation of the town of Vo nizza by Gen. Church, a communication was opened be tween the Gulf of Ambracia and the island of Salore, at the time the Seraskier Redschid was shut up in Janina, where the Mussulmans and Albanians had revolted against him, because he had executed Ismael Bey. The course of triumphs of the Greek armies in that country have been stopped by the orders of Gen. /liaison to his troops not to penetrate into Attica, and by the injunc tion of the President of Greece, in the name of the three Powers, to cease sending troops to the island of; Candia. The Archimandrite Gazir has died at Syria, in his '7oth year : his loss is deeply felt by his countrymen. At the beginning of the last insurrection he was at Vienna, where, by long and useful labours, he had amassed a tolerable fortune. We are indebted to him for an excellent Greek Dictionary, in 3 vols. and he inserted very interesting and scientific articles in the Mercury of Vienna, of which he was principally editor. Scarcely had the Greeks formed the design of throwing off the Ottoman yoke when he quitted Vienna, without hesitating a moment, and returned to his own country. He was Member of the first Na tional Assembly, and hence his conciliatory spirit frequently restorel unanimity amidst the conflicts of passions. (The Cours Authentique did not arrive - with these papers). SURREY COUNTY MEETING. (From a Correspondent of the Times.) A scene of indescribable confusion and outrage occurred at Epsom on Saturday, at the conclusion of the Surrey county meeting. The petition against Catholic conces sions was lying for siguatures in the great room of the Spread Eagle Ina, whither a crowd of the freeholders, with other persons, repaired for the purpose of signing it. The petition was placed at the upper end of the room, and the concourse of people who pressed onwards towards the table on which it was spread rendered - it a most difficult mattar to obtain access to it. In the bustle to attain the object, the pressure was so great as to give a gang of well-• dressed London pickpockets, who intruded themselves into such goodly society, ample opportunity of exercising their calling in a way that astonished many of the unfortunate freeholders and the bumpkins, assembled on this memo rable occasion. The entrance into the great room, as it is called, of tl►s Spread Eagle Inn, is up a flight of stairs, of rather narrow dimensions, and the rush of persons at the door, after thehreaking up of the meeting, was tremendous. At this particular spot the thieves were most active. Here a voice was heard to exclaim, " A thief is amongst 1111; have a care of your pockets, gentlemen, I have lost my purse." Another voice, " My watch is gong !" A third, " Where are the constables? I have had my pockets picked." The crowd, however, was so dense, that it was next to an impossibility for those who had been hustled to retreat, anti they were hurried along with the stream of people towards the ta ble—the goal at which all appeared eager to arrive.— Many individuals who accomplished this desirable object had as much reason of complaint as those who met with impediments at the door of the apartment, for several of the pickpockets surrounded the table, and regularly " ramped" the pockets of the petitioners as they approached with the intention of adding their signatures to the " No- Popery" petition. One gentleman, a clergyman of the established church, who was present at the meeting, at its dissolution proceeded to the Spread Eagle, for the purpose of signing the petition. The moment he entered the place he was impelled forward, and arrived at the upper part of the room, where the table was placed, without either of his feet scarcely ever touching the floor. When at the table, and about to make his signature, the reverend gen tleman experienced considerable pressure from the persons about him, patiticularly from one man, who appeared to be extremely officious, and who affected a great desire that the petitioners who presented themselves at the table should meet with as little annoyance as possible from the crowd. This person, the reverend gentleman remembe►e to have laid hold of hint tightly round the waist while he was writing his name to the petition ; soon after which the latter, on feeling his fob, found that his gold watch, toge ther with a purse containing money, were gone. Several other individuals were robbed in a similar manner; and, in point of fact, the Surrey county meeting was rendered remarkable only by the vast number of the light-lingered gentry that attended it. NEW PUBLICATIONS.—The following Works are just ',published by Mr. Cotsuaw, New Burlington street.-1 Eearte ;or the Salons of Paris, 3 vols.-2. The Naval Officer, or Scenes and Adventures in the Life of Frank Mildmay, 3 vole. post Bvo.-3. Tales of illilitary Life, containing Vandeleur and Gentleman Gray, by the Author of the Military Sketch Book, 3 vols. post Byn.- 4. Corramahon and the Northerns of 1798, a Series of Tales, by the Author of To-Day in Ireland, 3 vols.-5. The Carbonaro, a Piedmonteso Tale, by the Duke de Leyls, 2 yule. post Svo.-8. Tales of a Voyager to the Arctic Ocean, Second Series, 3 vole. post Bvo. FIRE INSURANCE.—The following Offices having given up the Business of Fire Insurance, viz. The Albion, The Beacon, The British Commercial, The Eagle, The Hope , The East Bent, The Gloucester and 'Worcestershire, Ihe Old Bath, The Surrey, Sussex, and Southwark.—Persons lately insured therein, will naturally inquire into the advantages and durability of any Office to which they may again entrust their pretection. the undersitTned Agents ip the vicinity of London, therefore, confidently invite attention to the County Fire Office, of Regent-street, which it will be found has, for a Series of Twenty-one Years, yielded unprecedented benefits, and to which they may transfer their Insurances without any ad ditional expellee. Re.tltrns of ;.b;. tnd 204. per Cent. have, 6 ee p lovatSaidy paid to all insured in the County Fire Office, an adVantage to the Public which has not been rect., lined cy any other Office existing. T. Webb Brentford. G. Lever Camdtm G. 8i15a....... Chelsea. IL Clapt'on. T. Hackney. H. Gunby T. Islington. G. Pentonville, Doswell.... r s r i B t fl y: 1 :1 1 1 1 : o s . r i l T. hlerecktt. , 4:atn i., gt on, Iy.i l ti Taft and Macon Regent's-park Pas:n. P. Perry Ditto, (Albany street. ) T. Single Stepney. S. Harrison Newington-Butts. C. Goad Camberwell. Purcell; and Co Battersea, R. Adams ,„.,Greenw4h, , •. SVICIDE.—A young man llama Rignmul SAMPSON, 21 years of age, residing with his mother-in law, in Queen-street, put an end to his existence on Wed nesday evening last, by shooting himself in the chest with a pistol. He was by trade a tailor, was married, and had a child, though but jilt out of his apprenticeship. Pre vious to his leaving the shop of his master, he cut with 4 penknife in the frame work of the window, " Sacred to the memory of RICHAIID SAMPSON', who departed this shop on the 10th of March, 1529." It is rather singular that an elder brother of this young man also put an end to his existence by similar means about six years since.—Dtvon port , Teleyraph. PRICKS OF STOCKS ?MIS DAY AT 9WI o'cLc3e2. Bank Stock 3 per Cent. Red. 3 per Cent. Cons-- ..... f 17% 1 4% New Ditto .. ni per Cent. shut Ex. Bills, .£ 1,000.2 d. 54:55 Po Ditto Red. shut Ditto 500 2d. :54 52p 1 s. 4 per Cent." wig ii 2 Ditto Small 2l. 54:5710 11 - Ditto, !Mar shut Ditto Commercial .........—. Pm?: Bank L Ann. shut Rank tbr Account ...... .... _ India Stock shut India for Account ..... __,. „ Ditto Bonds ....... ..... —*pm. Cons. for Aect..............k10406 PRICES OF FOREIGN FUNDS THIS DAY AT GNI O'CLOCK.. Austrian Bends — Neapolitan .... Brazilian Bonds 58 6 1A; Peruvian Bonds Buenos A Tres Bonds 27 Portuguese Bonds .........404 2 Chi Han Bonds ... — Prussian, Old .................. --- Colombian Bonds Ditto, 1824 Danish 8414%, Spanish. 1221 ..... ......-........ OA Greek 80nd5.......... .. ------ 1823. Ditto, 1825 —'French Redo, Sp. e. -.4. -.. -0 . Guatimala —:-- Exchange --f.'-'-e• Exchange Mexican Bonds 3 per cent. Ditto, 1825 22 PRICES OF SHANKS THIS DAT AT ONE O'CLOCK. Paid. Per Shy* Brazilian Imp. Min. Co. (iss. at 51. pm.) £2O al S 2 51% Ditto National 6 2 6 General Mining Association Alliance Marine Insurance Conip S U& Arrived. Due. Arrived. D 0 1 America.-- 0 0 Hamburgh............ 0 0 Brazil ... ........... 1 0 Holland .....r...,.:« 0 0 Buenos Ayres 1 0 Jamaica 1 Dublin 0 0 Leeward Islands,. 0 0 Flanders 0 0 Lisbon ........ .......... 4 1 1 France 0 0 Malta 0 Gottenburgh 1 1 Mexico 1 Guernsey&Jersey.. 0 0 Waterford MICR WATER AT LONDON BRIDGE TO-MORROW. Mt ruing ...52 minutes after 4. I Evoking ...11 minute' after 6. • .•?#4. Air . U dlt IFF. • ebf LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH . 24, 1829. Mr. PEEL'S reply, last night, to the observations made by Messrs. BANKES and MOORE, on the sub .. I ject of the Catholic Emancipation Bill, was marked by a sound spirit of truth and argument. The Right Honourable Secretary at once admitted the danger to be apprehended from the admission of Papists to Parliament, but urged in justification that a far greater danger was to be apprehended from their ex clusion. He might have carried this argument al further, and added, that the danger ofconciliation Was at best but problematical, while that of exclusion was pressing—immediate—and one that had already severely crippled the legitimate influence of Govern ment. So long as the Catholics are a proscribed race; so long as they are the Parias of the United King" dom, objects of dread, suspicion, and abhorrence -- so long will they possess that vast moral influence which the manifest hardship of their case will not fail to obtain for them in the minds of the enlight ened and liberal-minded. At present they are strong in the justice of their cause,—" thrice is he armed that hath his quarrel just:" an acute Bence of suffering has bound them together—prie st and layman, peer and peasant, rich and poor'' in one common bond of interest, and the only effectual way to dissolve this dangerous but Holy Alliance," is to leave them nothing to complain of. Give them the privileges of citizen- , ship; bid them be freemen, not Helots; and at once, to use the expressive language of that incomparable orator arid honour to human nature, Dr. CHALMERS, you reduce them from the imposing attitude of he roism to the homely level of heresy. When once admitted to Parliament, the spell that now renders them invincible will be broken. They will no longer have one common cause to defend, one paramount interest to bind them indissolubly together, but priest will separate from layman, peer from peasant ; eac h will be influenced by his own individual opinions; and mix himself up with one or other of the great leading parties of the day : the Catholic ArietOcet will oppose himself to the Catholic Radical; 66 vote of the bigot will neutralize the vote of the Liberal ; and thus that grand confederacy -Will ° broken, which, when united, like the old rila" •0 bundle of sticks in the fable, was irrefragable. The French Papers contain little important Wel' ligence. The Messager des Chambres, in an extract from a German Journal, states that a report has been spread at Vienna that the Ambassadors of France and England had received from their reaper" Courts orders to leave Naples and repair to to Constantinople. This rumour, though its origin was unknown, had obtained such credit at Vien iul as to cause a rise in the Funds. Extracts are gill ). " in another column. The Nuremburg Correspondent to the 16th, Oa the Allgetneine Zeitung to the 18th inst., have bee n received. The former states that his Imperial High. ness the Grand Duke MICHAEL has arrived at the theatre of war, and consequently that news of int. portant operations on the Danube may be soon e% . " pected. The latter contains nothing worthy of coal' meat or mention, except, perhaps, the statemen t that REDSCHID is in a critical situation at Janine, in consequence of an insurrection of the Albanians. The following arc extracts : BERLIN, MAXCII I°. As his Imperial Highness the Grand Duke Michaell Ll ! arrived at the theatre of war, we shall soon hear of int" portant operations on the Danube. The Prussian Gene ra l. Itoff, who last year gratified the public ty the public"' Con of a very cheap, and yet a very detailed, map of the theatre of war in European Turkey, is now preps - rig a second edition of this map, with very important inapi° vv " '' meats, derived from *Russian authorities. This new edi tor will he given t the purchasers of the first .in f , haoge , for it. It seems that the officers attached to 11 1 Russian head-quarters possess very detailed maps a ll plans of the line of mareh which will be taken .11 the main army. General Roth, now Governor of Val - g °4 is said to have assisted in obtaining them. In the ) ( c i f 1827, and even earlier, when it was foreseen that the Oi r fereacea tAetweeo. Ansi; and Ow. Porte would probabbf 'iec,d to, a war, that General had sent Russian eng ineers t° Turkey, who however, as was to be expecte d, were 014 away again. The object was however atta i ne d by I‘l4l/P., gern. The same engineers, who were acquainted witktbit. language of the country, were sent by sea to Constrolti'. tipple, in the disguise of American merchants, and then returned to Russia by land. They made this jettrq several times without being discoverer', wad t'!:24 reP °l" • are said to ire vihoily satisfactory. . ANCONA, )filAltc l , 6* , According to letters from Vloc o, Captain. Tsavellu,. who commands the van - guard o f the Greek corps ti ' n der Prince Ypsilanti, has defeated a stron g division., the Turks at Karpenissi (famous for the death of 11iarco 13°' zari), after a smart action. Taavella afterwards receive. from Ypsilanti a reinforcement of fresh .troops, and . up a position, with 800 men, at Fanasei, on Mount I:ti,° ° l in Thessaly, three leagues from Tricala. General with 6000 men, has occupied Agrapa and Tatorakt rf