The Sun. — London, England, 1859-07-26 00:00:00

Mr. Cowan had written a book. What the petitioners called upon their lordships and the Government to do was to give to the middle classes the adventages which the upper classes enjoyed without any interference, and which the working classes had obtained under the system adopted by the Com mittee of Council. According to a calculation which he had made, founded upon the incmoe-tax returns and those of the registrar-general, it was probable that there were in the Country about 1,200 middle-class schools, and what was de sired was that these establishments should be placed under the superintendence and care of the Committee of Council; that was, that any master of such a school might apply to that committee to have his school inspected, and if upon in spection its condition was found satisfactory, he should re ceive a certificate. Such certificates would have all the value of an academic degree, and would encourage those who had become schoolmasters to perform their duties efficiently, and induce others to undertake the task of tuition. Another point of great importance was the supply of good school mistresses. Atpresent the most serious consequences resulted from the inefficiency of female teachers ; and there could be no doubt if they were - improved that young women would become better wives and mothers. The insufficiency of edu cation was, unfortunately, greatest in those districts where it was most wanted. The defect in the large towns was greater than in the country districts in the proportion of 13 to 11. In the metropolis it was greatest of all. Of course, anything Lae compulsion. would be utterly out of the ques tion, still less was it consistent with sound policy or with true religion to make any advantage dependent on any • man's faith. Persecuted truth would always lift its head mere loftily and suceeed more certainly, but to persecute error was often to delay its downfal. (Hear, hoar.) The Bishop of LINCOLN thought that a sounder edu cation was given to the poorer classes in these inspected schools than could be commanded in many of the middle class commercial schools. No doubt a great many of the masters of these commercial schools were very able men, but it had often been remarked in his hearing by persons belonging to the middle classes--farmers for instance—that though they paid a good price for the education of their children, they doubted whether they always received full value for their money. It would be of considerable advan tage to this class of schools if they could be placed in some way or otherunder Government inspection. The Chancel. for of the Exchequer, under present circumstances, would very rely object to any considerable addition to the edti cation grant for this purpose; but a small sum each year would in course of time probably obtain all. that was de sired. Of course it would be impossible to use anything like compulsion; but it would be found that many school masters would offer their schools for inspection is order that by gaining a certificate they might place them in a better position ; and other schoolmasters, by the force of competition, would gradually be obliged to put them selves under inspection in the same way. The right rev. prelate concluded by expressing his concurrence in the re marks of the noble and learned lord on the subject of female education. Earl GRANVILLE said he was quite sure that the ex penditure of large sums of money, if economically and effi ciently applied in the education of the people, would be an absolute saving to the country, because education tended materially to maintain order and peace. Some eminent men held that while it was the duty of the State to educate the labouring classes for the sake of the peace and order of the country, it was not so much the duty of the State to inter fere with the education of the higher or the middle classes. He admitted that the instruction given in some of the mid dle-class schools was very much inferior to that given in the national schools, but he should be unwilling to impose upon the Committee of Council on Education the additional labour of superintending the management of the schools of the middle classes. After a few words from Lord BROUGHAM, the discussion terminated. The Speaker of the Legislative Council (Canada) Bill, and the North-Western Territories (British America) Bill, went through committee. Their lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.) The BPzALlit took the chair at 12 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Lords' amendments to the following bills were con sidered and agreed to, and the bills were read a third time :—Merthyr t Tredegar, and Abergavenny Railway, Mountaorrel Railway, Somerset Central Railway, Vale of Llangollen Railway (by opposing party), Wear Navi gation and Sunderland Docks, Wirral Water, Lon don and North-Western Railway (Denton to Staly bridge), Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland (Liffey Branch, &c.), Dublin and Wicklow Railway, Sunderland Dock (No. 2), Eastbourne Water, Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland (Sligo Extension), Tottenham and Edmonton Gas, and North Staffordshire Railway. The following bills were read a second time :—Earl of Kintore's Estate, and Liverpool Sanitary Amendment. SUPPLY. On the motion for going into committee of supply, Mr. LAING said he hoped that hon. members who had motions on the paper would postpone them until the even ing sitting at six o'clock. in answer to Sir H. WILLOITGRBY The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it would not be necessary to move the second reading of the Income-tax Bill this evening. Some hon. members expressed their readiness to accede to the suggestion of the hon. gentleman the Secretary of the Treasury. GREENWICH HOSPITAL. Sir C. NAPIER said that as Sir Ds Lacy Evans had a motion for the appointment of a commission, consisting of civilians and military and naval officers, which was to be brought forward that evening; he thought it would be more convenient if his motion for a commission to inquire into the management of Greenwich Hospital was postponed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he hoped the hon. and gallant =ember would postpone his motion, and that course, he assured him, would be for his (Sir C. Napier's) interest and the convenience of the house. Sir C. NAPIER consented to postpone his motion. THE DISTURBANCES ON BOARD HER MAJESTY'S SHIPS. Mr. LIDDELL asked the Secretary to the Admiralty, relative to certain disturbances alleged to have taken place recently on board her Majesty's ships Liffey, Cesar, and Hero. Lord C. PAGET said that the Admiralty were desirous of giving full information on this subject, and he had re ceived reports from the officers commanding the vessels in question, from which it appeared that though some dis content was expressed in consequence of the sailors not obtaining leave to go on shore, there was no ground for any apprehension, as order was now restored. The noble lord read the rdports in confirmation of this statement. THE CAPTAIN OF THE PRINCESS ROYAL. In reply to an HoN. MEMBER, Lord C. PAGET declined giving the name of the commander of the vessel in question, on board of which it was stated that flogging had been resorted to in an impropor manner. The gentleman in ques - tion was an old and meritorious officer, and it would be most unfair to parade his name before the public. If they desired to maintain the efficiency of the naval ser vice, they must also maintain its discipline, and therefore flogging could not at present be abolished. No doubt, how ever, it would eventually die a natural death, and it would not be wise to strangle it. Mr. WILLIAMS said that the name of the officer alluded to was Captain Bazely, who denied that his conduct was open to censure. After some further conversation' the subject dropped. SUPPLY. The house then went into committee of supply. On the vote of £93,924, for the department of science and art, Mr. CONINGHAM moved that the vote for the National Gallery of £15,985 be reduced by £650, charged as travelling expenses. After a few remarks by hon. members as to the removal of the site of the National Gallery to Kensington Gore, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, whatever rumours might be current on the subject, no step had been taken for the removal of the site of the National Gallery, and the Government had given no grounds for these rumours. He thought nothing would be effected by striking the item out of the estimates unless they ap pointed a commission to inquire into the subject. Mr. BLACKBURN moved that the grant for the main tenance of Kensington Gore be discontinued, and he re marked that there was no part of their fiscal system that required to be more carefully watched than the votes relating to such subjects. Lord HADIAO, on the vote for salaries in schools of art, moved that the payment for undraped models be disal lowed. He strongly deprecated the practice of using these models, as being injurious to public morality. Mr. LOWE said there was no vote for undraped models. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER trusted that the discussion would not be pursued on the ground of public morality. Mr. ADDERLEY considered the models were indispens able to the complete study of art. Mr. SPOON - ER advocated the withdrawal of the grant to the Manchester School. Sir J. PAXTON bore his testimony to the admirable manner in which the Kensington-gore Museum was con ducted, and he contended that the institution had been the means of improving the taste of the working c l asses. Th e £40,070 ; it estimate for the Purposes of science was a t fi rst on l y had at present risen to £93,000, and he th oug ht £200,000 could be profitably expended in this depa r t ment. the vote was After some discussion the motions were withdrawn, an d agreed to. On the vote of £166,468 for Irish National Schools, Mr. MAGUIRE called attention. to the so-called improved sc ale of pay for teachers of national schools. The national schools in Ireland were conferring great benefit on the juve nile population of Ireland, numb ers of whom were acquir ing through their medium the rudiments of education. He roegobjected t the relaxation of the r u l e b y which secu lar anclligions tea ching were kept separate, and it had already the effect of shakin g in a considerable degree the con fidence of the Irish hierarchy and clergy in the system. He maintained that some applications for grants to schools had been refused to certain Roman Catholic localities on sec tarian or, at all events. very frivolous grounds. The hon. member then adverted to the subject of his motion, and cited the statement of competent authorities titnieastoonsal schoolshowthat i the present payment of the teachers of h in Ireland was quite inadequate, - and that its insuffici ency was working very injuriously. 5,000 teachers were trained in these schools, but in consequence of emigration and other cause 2,000 of the teachers in these sch t o h o e l s s e at te p a r c e h se e n rs t were untrained. The original payment to was £27 a-year, and the increase amounted only to £4, £2, or £1 a-year. Mr. GEORGE admitted that the payment of the class alluded to was inadequate. He referred to the fact that in, the conspiracy dete c t e d i n th e county of Berry a large number of that class were i mp li cate d . He considered that circumstance showed that the duty of national inspection was very inefficiently performed, notwithstanding that it cost the country no less than £22,500 a-year, and that a sum of £15,400 annually was expended on the commission ,c-and its staff of officials in Dublin. Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that the present subject , -was one of considerable delicacy. He thought it was very necessary that there should be a class of well-conducted and well•informed men to instruct the juvenile population , of Ireland. He also considered that house accommodation g bOUld be provided for these teachers, some of whom were , at present compelled to reside a long distance from. the schools; and he thought the resident gentry of the country might do much to remedy this defect. Lord FERMOY defended the schcol teachers from the charge of being disloyal, merely because a few members of that class had been concerned in the Phoenix conspiracy. He agreed with hon. members that the payment of the school teachers in Ireland was insufficient, and therefore impolitic. In his opinion the denominational system, as it, existed in this country, was inapplicable to Ireland, and he advocated the reconstruction of the present system, and the appointment of a board, with a minister of education at its head, to whom should be confided not only primary and collegiate, but also intermediate, education. Mr. GROGAN agreed with hon. members that the sti pends of the Irish schoolmasters should be increased. Mr. LABOUCHERE also concurred as to the propriety of an adequate income being provided for those engaged in the important task of instruction. He hoped that in their attempts to improve education in Ireland all classes would unite to preserve and perpetuate the present system, which, notwithstanding some defects, had worked admirably, and was one of the greatest boons which this country ever con ferred on Ireland. Mr. CARDWELL considered that there should be a better provision made for schoolmasters in Ireland, but at present that would be impossible. He reminded hon. mem bers that the vote was merely a stipend to aid the objeClt of national education in Ireland, and he assured the house that the Government would attend to whatever suggestions were made to them, and if discussions were conducted in the same dispassionate manner that characterised the pre sent debate he had no apprehension of this important ques tion being satisfactorily settled. Mr. WILLIAMS said he did not object to liberal grants for educational purposes. It being 10 minutes to 4 o'clock the hon. member was interrupted, and the house adjourned till 6 o'clock. The house resumed at 6 o'clock. In reply to a question from Mr. E. JAMES, Mr. C. FORTE SCUE said that the papers for which the hon. and learned gentleman had moved on the 12th inst., relating to proceedings at Hongkong, would be presented to the house, with the exception of papers referring to occur rences which took place 10 or 12 years ago, and with the addition of certain documents not mentioned in the ad dress, but which it was thought would tend to explain the transactions. SUBMARINE TELEGRAPHS. On the motion of Mr. H. BERKELEY, an address to the Crown was agreed to for copies of any contract entered into by her Majesty's . late Government for the laying down a line of submarine telegraphic communication between England and Gibraltar ; of any correspondence between the contractors and her Majesty's late Government in reference thereto ; and of the pro po sitions made on behalf of the Great Indian Submarine Telegraph Company, bearing date respectively the 12th day of April, 1858, and the 30th day of April, 1859, for carrying out a line from Falmouth to Bombay, via Gibraltar, Malta, and Alexandria, either as a whole or in sections. PRUSSIA. Lord J. RUSSELL laid upon the table, by command of her Majesty, a copy of the despatch addressed by himself to Lord Bloomfield. SUPPLY. MILITARY DEFENCES OF THE COLONIES. The order of the day for going into Committee of Supply having been read, on the question that the Speaker leave the chair, Mr. ADDERLEY rose to call the attention of the house to the military defences of the colonies, and to the source from which those defences were supplied. He had moved for certain papers on this subject, which had not yet been circulated, and he must therefore rely in a great measure upon the returns which had been produced on the motion of the hon. and gallant member for Aberdeen. He appealed to the hon. member for Birmingham whether he did not think it a question of importance whether this country should be required not only to furnish from its limited population troops for the defence of the colonies, but also to supply the greater part of the cost of maintaining those troops. The plan pursued was not only needlessly expensive to this country, but the result of it was that not one single colony belonging to this empire was in an adequate state of defence. England had granted self-government to her colonies, and had abrogated all those commercial laws by which she once sought to advance her own_interests by interfering with colonial commerce. The natural corollary of these changes was that we should have called upon the colonies to under take their own defence. Instead of that, however, our ex penditure upon them for naval and military purposes was no less than £3,250,000 per annum. Of this vast sum the colo nies themselves paid only £337,000, or but one-tenth of the whole. Deducting the charge for such military stations as Gibraltar, Malta, the lonian Islands, the Mauritius, and Bermuda, the expenditure incurred for our colonies, pro perly so called, was £2,500,000. Deducting, however, the amount contributed by the inhabitants of the military stations, the sum borne by the colonies proper was reduced to £220,000, leaving the proportion of the entire cost de frayed by colonies like Australia and Canada for their own defence at only one-tenth. Even of the inadequate force maintained in our colonies, only one ',quarter consisted of colonial militia or police, the rest being made up of her Majesty's troops. The people of England were taxed to the extent of £1 per ,head for their army, navy, and ord nance ; whereas the colonists of Canada did not pay more than one-fiftieth part of that sum for their own defences. But great as was the disproportion between the burden on the people at home and in the colonies, there was a still greater inequality in the distribution of that ex penditure between the different colonies themselves. general rule seemed to be, make those colonies that ought to pay the least pay the most, and those that ought to pay the most pay the least. The small military stations and dependencies above enumerated were most of them taxed to the full amount of their own defences, while Canada, the Cane, and Australia contributed little or nothing. Speaking of Australia, a despatch of Lord Grey, written in 1849 to Sir Charles Fitzroy, then Governor of New South Wales, laid down the rules which ought to govern that question. The principles of that despatch, however, had been but very imperfectly carried out, and even in the Australian colonies the matter was arranged, as it were, haphazard, Victoria being made to pay much more heavily than the other colonies, for no reason except that it was richer and could bear the burden of taxation better. But costly and unequal as the system was, it had not the redeeming merit of providing efficient means of defence. We had now in England, inclusive or militia, 110,000 troops, in addition to which we had in India 85,000 Europeans. But in the whole of our colonies, scattered over the entire surface of the globe, we had but 42,000 sol diers, or rather, after deducting the number quartered in the purely military stations, we had but 22,000. Our colonies were consequently in a very insecure position ; and in the event of war, any great maritime Power would be able to deprive us of some of them. Moreover, if a general war should break out, we should probably have to call home the colonial garrisons, and then the colonists, having been taught to lean upon the mother country, and having by her system had everything like a military spirit crushed out of them, would be wholly incapable of defending them selves. The noble lord the present Foreign Secretary had repeatedly stated that, if we did not furnish troops for our colonies, other countries would take them from us. The converse of that proposition would hold good—viz., if we continued to defend our colonies as we are now doing, most assuredly in the end some foreign Power would gain possession of them. Another evil effect of the system was, that with a considerable portion of our force abroad, when war occurred, we had to resort to the raising of German and Swiss Legions, and in our endeavour to obtain troops in Foreign States we got embroiled with foreign Governments. Another reason against the present mode of scattering the Queen's troops in the colonies was that, after all, they were not the best troops for the defence of the colonies. The colonial militia had always hitherto been found the best troops for the defence of the colonies. They understood local warfare, and were more accustomed to the peculiar climates in which they had to act. Again, the practice of English troops garrisoning the colonies led to a wasteful expenditure. Under the existing system, the more English troops the colonies obtained the richer they became, while the control of the Imperial Parliament was no control at all. We knew nothing of the expenditure on account of the German Legion. Since their arrival in South Africa they had never been without full pay, and yet up to the present moment no account had been presented to the house. England had paid many millions for the Caffre wars, but the Imperial Parliament had not been allowed to consider a single item of that expenditure. If the colonies were called upon to provide for their own defence they would look sharply after their military expenditure, and the present wasteful system would be abolished at once. (Hear.) Earl Grey, in a despatch addressed to Sir Charles Fitzroy, the Governor of New South Wales, laid down the principle which ought to be pursued. The noble earl fully recognised the right of the Australian colonies to expect a fair share of protection from the mother country, but he added that, see ing the great progress in wealth and population which those colonies had made, their inhabitants ought to bear a large part of the burden which with a view to their protection was imposed upon their fellow subjects of the United King dom. He advised the formation of colonial volunteer artil lery corps, and warned the Australian colonists that if they did not make adequate provision for her Majesty's troops, those troops would be removed. The colonists showed at first some mclination to resist the application of the principle laid down by Earl Grey, but the eoncluding " threat" as to the withdrawal of the Queen's troops brought them to their senses, and they had since provided 50 per cent. of the cost of their military defence. (Hear, hear.) Nobody could contend that the mother country should provide the local police of the colonies, or do more than defend them from foreign aggression. ut he had shown that the garrisons we sent out were worthless against foreign aggression, and could only be used for local purposes. They were, therefore, utterly indefensible. He did not say that the colonists should bear equally with the residents in the United King dom their share of expenditure for the defence of the empire. That would be an unfair demand to make upon them, be cause they were not represented in the Imperial Parliament —but the fact of their not being so represented was no rea son why we should supply them with military stores, bar racks, troops to garrison them, and every species of naval defenc e . They ought to bear a certain share of that expen diture ; he would not say what share, but certainly the tenth which they now paid fell far short of the call which l should be made upon them. (Hear.) He did not be lieve what was sometimes said, that if the colonies were asked to defend themselves they would soon become inde pent, becaus e and readiness to had confid ence , not only in their power provide for their own military expendi tureWe , but in their had proof of heartythat at theattachment timeof theto the mother w a c r o , u country. hesitation hen offered seas both moneyw was s ld rather have the colonies inying that he would an d tr°°troopsbut he had no independent, if by that term Kin ment, for example, the fam il y , than see the present systegm continued. existence Canada of a belonging to our Royal Nor was it la l t a i L . herself. Her true that Canada was incapable of defending intelligence, her wealth, and her were greater th an were those of the United States when they t h e i r i n dependence, not with the help of the e gained mother country, but in spite of her resistance. (Hear, h ear.) He trusted, then, that the Government would give their earnest and immediate attention to this subject; if not, at . the commencement of next session he should move for a select committee to inquire into all the circumstances he had stated to the house. (Hear, hear.) Lord A. CIIURCHILL concurred in the opinions ex pressed by his right hon. friend, and thought we should arrive at some definite conclusion as to the amount of pro tection which this country ought to afford to the colonies, and that which they ought to afford to themselves. The Australian colonies viewed just now with the utmost alarm the naval power of France in the South Pacific, where there were now 10 French - to five British ships of war. With regard to the four regiments now in those colonies, how ever, he could say that the three on the mainland were per forming the duties of police. He had himself seen them acting as a gold escort and keeping the peace upon the gold fields, and at the tine of the Russian war they were taken away from Melbourne to perform this duty. He could not but believe that if the matter were properly represented to the colonists they would provide a local militia for their own defence. It could be done without much additional cost, and this country would probably not object to find arms and ammunition, and to take some part in the work of organisation. Block ships, too, might be sent out for the colonists to man. In the event of war the Australian colonies would certainly be attacked by the French, and thus, though no parties to the rupture, they would be called upon to suffer for the misunderstandings of the mother country, This would be rather hard upon them, and he thought we ought rather to protect them fully by a large and efficient force, so that they might not be exposed to danger on the occurrence of hostilities, or else we ought to give them their independence, which would free themfrom attack in any such case. He did not assert that the time had come for giving the colonists their independence, or that they themselves wished for it. There existed among them, on the contrary, the utmost loyalty and patriotism, which had been greatly increased since they received a free Government, and this feeling towards the mother country was evinced by the large amount subscribed towards the Patriotic Fund during the Russian war, when Tasmania subscribed £28,000, or nearly 10s. a head upon her whole population. (Hear, hear.) Mr. MARSH said, the sea-board of the Australian colo nies was so vast that it was almost impossible that troops could be provided to defend it. Such troops would be of very little use against external attack, and nothing was so unlikely as internal trouble among a population so prospe rous and wealthy, unless the Government were very badly administered indeed, At present nothing could exceed their loyalty, and he thought that the advantages which the colonies derived from their connection with Gre,at Bri tain were oven greater than those derived from it by the latter, seeing that they had nothing to pay either for arma ments or diplomacy. With regard to the naval forces on the Australian coast, the British navy would be as neces sary there for the protection of British commerce as if Aus tralia were independent. Almost every ship in the ports of that colony belonged to British subjects, and was in sured atifiloyd's or in some other part of the United King dom, so that the colony would not be the losers if those ships were captured. The naval force on that coast was, therefore, an imperial question, but he admitted that to the land defences a very different principle applied. (Hear.) THE NATIONAL DEFENCES. Sir DE L. EVANS said it was more than a month since he had placed on the notice paper the resolution which he was now about to move— Mr. D. SEYMOUR (who had given notice that he would call the attention of the house to the undefended state of the coast between Weymouth and Southampton) rose to order. He was unaware that the last subject had been dis posed of, and as his notice was placed immediately after wards on the paper he believed that he had precedence of the hon. and gallant general. (" Order I") The SPEAKER said the motion before the house was that he should now leave the chair, and the hon. and gal lant officer, having risen to submit another resolution, was rightly in possession of the house. (Laughter.) Sir DE L. EVANS, continuing, said he should not trou ble the house with many observations in support of his mo• tion, as he understood the Government intended to assent to the appointment of this commission. It was hardly possible to mention at the present moment a matter of greater importance than the subject of the national defences. Some persons thought the expenditure on this head was far too great, while others believed our means of defence were still far from sufficient. Great were the differences of opinion which existed, and he thought some attempt ought to be made to inquire into the real facts of the case. For his own part, he was sorry to say he did not think this matter had been gone into by the present and by former Governments as it ought to have been. The present Go vernment, it was true, were hardly yet seated at their bureaux, and with regard to the late Ministry, he quite concurred with those who thought that the bright spot in their administration had been their efforts to maintain the maritime forces of the country. He trusted that those ex ertions would be continued, and he believed this would be the case, for he had every confidence in the judgment and ability of the noble duke now at the head of the Admiralty. Vast interests were concerned in this inquiry. The value of the commerce which every year went into or passed from our ports was, he believed, £300,000,000; and if any dis agreement arose between this and a foreigri country, so as to endanger these vast interests, what terrible ruin would result to the people of England. (Hear, hear.) As the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Sydney Herbert) had been kind enough to say that he would assent to the motion, it would only be necessary now to submit to the House : " That in the opinion of this House, taking into considera tion the relations existing between some of the great mili tary Powers of the continent, it is advisable that a commis sion be appointed, consisting of civilians and military and naval officers, to inquire into and collect information con cerning the present condition of our national defences; to ascertain what improvements may be made therein in order to ensure the utmost efficiency combined with economy ; and to report thereon to Her Majesty's Government." Mr. D. SEYMOUR then rose, pursuant to notice, to call the attention of the house to the undefended state of the coast between Weymouth and Southampton. The hon. gentleman, in doing so, took occasion to say that while a large expenditure had been incurred by the Government for the construction of thirty line-of-battle ships, that portion of our shores to which his motion related—or rather that which lay between Weymouth and the Needles, which stood opposite to Cherbourg, and which in case of attack would be found the most accessible to an invading force, had been left without any adequate means of protection.. It had not, however, been left thus undefended in former times, for he found on reference to a map, which bore the date of 1765, that no less than five or six batteries were then erected along that part of the coast. As an illustration of the danger which might arise from leaving things in their present state, he might mention that while Pools, the borough which he had the honour to represent, was sixty miles from Cherbourg, it was at a distance of thirty miles from Weymouth, and that in case of a hostile attack the fleet which might be situated at the latter place could hardly be brought up in sufficient time to be of service in keeping off the invading force. He should, therefore, urge the Government to turn their attention to the subject, and to allay, if possible, any feeling of panic which might have arisen in the publio mind by placing themselves in a position to pro claim to the country that they were prepared for every emergency. He might add, that it seemed to him desirable that inasmuch as it was difficult to establish rifle corps in maritime towns, gunboats should be employed along the coast—a large number might, for instance, be draughted from Portsmouth to the port in question—in working the rifled cannon placed on board which as well as batteries erected at different points on the shore volunteers from these towns, who would not be found disposed to join rifle corps, might with ad vantage be employed. He should, above all things, recommend his right hon. friend the Secretary at War not to rest satisfied with im perfect information on so important a question as the state of our defences. Hon. members were no doubt aware that some time ago the Government of Belgium stated that the defences of Antwerp were in a perfectly efficient condition, and that they had gone to great expense to attain that object. It had, however, turned out, when the matter had been sifted before a committee, which had been moved for by a member of the Belgian Chamber, that all the good will which the Government had exhibited had not availed to secure the end which they had in view, and which they imagined they had accomplished. It was, therefore, hemain tained, the duty of his right hon. friend to take nothing on trust, but to examine into the subject for himself, and to see that no part of the country was left without adequate means of defence. (Hear, hear.) Mr. S. HERBERT—I have got, sir, a somewhat multi farious number of questions to which to reply. (A laugh.) I shall commence by answering those which have been put to me by my right hon. friend opposite (Mr. Adderley), in the greater part of whose observations I must say I en tirely concur. My attention was some time ago called to the subject of the payments by different colonies towards their own defence, and I confess it is scarcely possible to conceive anything more capricious or unreasonable than the varying proportions in which those payments are made. (Hear, hear.) The Government of the mother country sends troops to the colonies for the purposes either of defence or of internal police. So far as the first object is concerned, they have some sort of claim to ask her to bear a share of their military expenditure, inasmuch as she arrogates to herself the settlement of all questions of peace and war, and their interests may suffer as the result of the policy which she chooses to pursue. That is a doctrine which, however, may be pushed too far, because if the prospects of a colony are injured by war, she enjoys all the advantages of being placed under the protection of a powerful State in time of peace. These operations apply not only to colonies which have great wealth, but to those garrisons which belong to us in the Mediterranean and whose strength makes their possession coveted by other nations. Now, with respect to the question of the maintenance of troops in our colonies for the purposes of police, I must say I think such a course is one which is indefensible. (Hear, hear.) We at home pay our military and police expenditure ; the one out of the pro ceeds of Imperial taxation ; the other out of local rates. That is a distinction which ought, in my opinion, to be as far as possible maintained in our colonies. The question, however, is beset with difficulties, but, before I proceed to state the views of the Government with respect to it, I shall quote, for the information of the house, from a document which I hold in my hand, the propor tion in which the mother country and the colonies pay for the defence of the latter. In the case of the North American colonies, £441,639 are paid by Great Britain, and only £218,111 by these colonies ; the greater portion of that sum being paid by Canada. For Australia the Home Go- vernreent pays £228,000, the colonies themselves £156,000, to the payment of which amount Victoria is the principal contributor. We have, however, entered into arrangements with them which I think ought to be extended to other colonies, and in accordance with which the colonists pay a certain allowance, and confer several advantages on the troops in t h e w ay of procuring provisions for four com panies ; their agreement being to maintain entirely at their own charge any troops which they may require above that number. The result is that we do not receive from those colonists such pressing solicitations for troops as wo do from other quarters—(a laugh)—while the relations which exist between them and us are placed upon a much sounder foot ing. (Hear, hear.) For our colonies in the Mediterranean THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 26, 1859. we pay £958,000, while there is a sum of only £30,560 ex pended by them ; but then it must be remembered that, being garrisons, it is of the utmost importance for our in terests that their defence should be adequately provided for. On the West Indies we lay out £432,000, while the colonists themselves pay not more than £6,000. In our colonies in the East, Mauritius, and Hong Bong, our expenditure for defensive purposes is £289,000, while they expend £91,000. the Cape of Good Hopi costs us £635,000, while a sum of £29,000 is all that the colonists contribute. The last-men tioned is, I must say, one of the strongest instances of that disproportion to which I have referred. My right hon. friend, in alluding to the Cape of Good Hope, spoke of the German Legion which was sent out there, and of which he says he has for a long time heard nothing. lam sorry to have to state that I cannot say as much, for the War Department has of late had repeated solicitations ad dressed to it in connexion with that body. I hold in my hand a statement which I have submitted to the Trea sury, and which involves a claim for a large sum of money, inasmuch as Sir G. Grey has kept the troops of the Ger man Legion in pay from the time of their arrival in the Cape of Good Hope until the present day. A consi derable portion of those troops, it is true, volunteered to go to India, but a large number of them was left behind, and the expense of the maintenance of such a body is very great. Without, however, going further into this point, I shall state to the right hon. gentleman the course we have taken. It is quite true that if there were only one party to the bargain we by an Imperial Act could easily overrule the intentions and feelings of the colonists by laying down some law which would settle once for all the proportions upon which this expenditure for military purposes should be based. But this must be made matter of negotiation between the several colonies. (Hear.) They have the great advantage of distance and the great advantage of pas sive resistance, and, therefore, I do not feel very sanguine of an early and effective inroad upon the system which now exists. But it ought, nevertheless, not to be neglected, and at the present moment there is a committee sitting upon the subject, consisting of Mr. G. A, Harailten (Treasury), Mr. Godly, who is well known to my hon. friend, and Mr. T. F. Elliot (Colonial-office). The instructions which have been given to those gentlemen are—to ascertain the gross ex penses of military defences for the five years 185347 inclu sive ; the proportion borne by colonial governments ; in what colonies they are necessary for imperial or colonial purposes or both ; to lay down the principle upon which the expenses ought to be :apportioned ; and to state the best mode of carrying that object into effect. As I have before said, the government are most anxious to pursue this course. The Duke of Newcastle enters warmly into the matter ; but I repeat, that owing to the distance and the great power of resistance, I am not sanguine ss to an early or uniform set tlement, although I am sure every exertion will be made to place the matter upon a more satisfactory footing than at present. (Hear.) With respect to the questions raised by my hon. and gallant friend and by the hon. member for Poole, let me say, with regard to the last, that the subject of the defence in case of attack of the coast of England has not escaped the notice of the Government. My predecessor appointed committees of officers to make a minute exami nation of the whole coast, and those Engineer officers pre pared plans withgreat accuracy and great skill. We thought it most important that those officers should be made tho roughly familiar with the topographical and physical na ture of the coast of Great Britain, but I am afraid it is impossible to attempt to fortify as against an enemy every portion of the whole coast. (Hear, hear.) You might by attempting it fritter away an enormous sum of money. (Hear, hear.) To place batteries and guns, with no men to serve the guns, would place the country in a worse position than if you did nothing at all. (Hear, hear.) I only hope that the house and every individual member will recollect that it is impossible the whole of the coast can be put in a state of fortification, and that the attention of the Government must, in the first instance at any rate, be turned to the defence of those great ports and arsenals in which we have all our materials of war, in which we have the means of reproducing materials of war, and which, I am sorry to say, are not in that forward state of defence at the present moment which I could wish. (Hear, hear.) The gallant officer proposes a resolution :-- " That, in the opinion of this house, taking into consider ation the relations existing between some of the great mili tary Powers of the Continent, it is advisable that a com mission be appointed, consisting of civilians and military and naval officers, to inquire into and collect information concerning the present condition of our national defences ; to ascertain what improvements may bemade therein in or der to insure the utmost efficiency combined with eccnomy; and to report thereon to her Majesty's Government." I can offer the gallant officer the substance of his motion, but not the motion itself. If you pass this resolution, in the ' first place there is an end of supply, and then, aga i n , I rather object to the words which point to the relations ex isting between some of the great military Powers of the Continent. (Hear.) From the first moment when I came into office I turned my attention to the subject, which is one of considerable anxiety to the Government, and I mentioned the decision during the discussion on the Estimates, that it appeared that the system by which we were proceeding with certain works was a very doubtful policy, as for any effectual purpose of defence they ought to be finished as rapidly as possible. (Hear, hear.) Either the gallant officer or the hon. member said he thought the War Department had not paid attention to the subject, and had not confidence in the scientific advice which they had at their command. Now, I find that these plans of defence of the arsenals and dock yards show an amount of care, minuteness, and skill which does great credit to the Engineer officers, and it is not that the Government have the slightes distrust in the skill and ability of those officers that they have come to the conclusion to appoint a mixed commission of ci vilians and naval and military officers —not too large a num ber, but a few whose names will carry weight with the public—to whom we submit the plans which we have for these fortifications, asking them to reconsider them, and give us advice as to which should be first proceeded with, and to suggest any alterations or extensions which they may think necessary, but not, of couase, to start a fresh theory, and render useless the expenditure of public money already incurred. (Hear.) I believe that it is necessary, and it is necessary for this reason—that if this house is to be called upon to vote very large sums, or if the Govern ment think fit to apply very large sums voted by the house, it is essential that public confidence should be obtained, and that the country should be perfectly satisfied that the works .on which the expenditure is to be made have been perfectly well considered, and will be adequate as far as possible for the purpose intended. (Hear, hear.) It is therefore the intention of the Government to appoint a commission such as that described by the gallant officer. I trust that in a few days, when the names come out, they i will be deemed guarantees to the public that the Govern • ment is honestly pledged to getting the best advice in their power as to the plans upon which great works are to be carried on at a more rapid pace than has hitherto been the case, so that when completed the country may feel confi dence that our arsenals, which contain the means of repro duction of great maritime and military defences, are in such a state that we need 'be under no alarm of a successful circumstances whatever. Mr. HORSMAN, Lord LOVAINE, and M r. H ALIBURTON ( a d tt h a ee ck rs b g any enemy under any rose together, but upon the call of " new member," the two first-named members yielded precedence. Mr. HALIBURTON said he had to thank the Secretary for War for the manner in which he had treated the motion of the hon. gentleman below him. He was not aware when he read the notice what was the particular purport of the motion, on aceount of the manner in which it was worded, and he confessed Cita he listened to the observations of the hon. gentleman with a great deal of anxiety as to whether he understood it rightly, and whether the hon. gentleman would be misunderstood on the other side of the water. The hon. gentleman, as far as he could gather from his observations, appeared to question the expediency of having troops in British North America. He hoped he might be permitted to make a few remarks upon that subject, because the whole of his life had been spent there. (Cheers.) It was said that the colonists ought to defend themselves. Be it so. It was not the first time they had done it, and they were able to do it again. (Cheers.) But at the same time there was a reciprocal duty as well as a mutual interest— on the one part loyal and obedient attachment to this country, and on the other protection. (Hear, hear.) It was said that the militia ought to be organiseti. He was proud to say that it had been organised, and in the war of 1812 with the United States, with very trifling assistance from this country, for her troops were wanted elsewhere, the militia of Canada turned out, and the whole force of the United States was not sufficient to make any impression upon them. (Cheers.) Again, when Lord Seaton by that very extraordinary manner in which he governed Canada produced rebellion—not in Nova Scotia, for in Nova Scotia there never was rebellion, but in other parts—it was the native troops, underthe com mand of Sir A. MSNab and Sir F. Bond Head, who drove out the Yankee sympathisers and the Trench rebels. (Cheers.) The same thing could be done again, but the very knowledge that England would protect the country in time of need was a protection of itself. If it were announced that the troops would be withdrawn, and the colonies, must protect themselves, it would l ea d t o tro u bl e w ith their neighbours ; while the very knowledge that a great country like England, with a large army and a powerful fleet, was willing to take them under its wing, was a protec tion against the most powerful neighbour they had to fear, if fear were not a word inapplicable to the case. (Hear, hear.) If the troops were withdrawn, what did they want with the colonies ? Let them give the colonies under those circum stances their independence. They did not ask or want it, and would receive it with regret, but the colonists were men of English extraction, and would say, "If you aro come to the condition of Rome, and you must gather your legions from the extremities of your em pire, give us our independe nce an d l eave us, and we will say God speed and protect you as in the olden time." But when hon. members talked of the militia and governing the colonies, England did not govern, but misgoverned them; England did not manage their affairs, but mismanag e d th em. What had occurred with regar d to the militia within the last three or four years ? Why, that a boy of 15 or 16 years of age, at Eton or one of the public schools, was made a colonel of the militia of Nova Scotia. (Hear.) Was the ap pointment of a boy who was learning his Latin and Greek grammar in this country, over the heads of old men in the colony, because it would give the boy rank hereafter, likely to encourage the militia to turn out ? In his opinion it was turning the whole Thing into ridicule. (Hear.) These were the blessings they enjoyed and the encouragement they re ceived. What had the colonies to do with an European war? Their ships were plundered on the high seas, their sailors were impressed in their towns, and the enemy's ships were in all their coves and creeks, watching for their homeward-bound ships. The quarrel was not one of theirs. When this country undertook to govern the colonies, and when it made laws suitable for itself, well and good ; but Parliament ought, at least, to ask the colonies whether the same laws were suited to their condition. (Hear.) When they gave to America the coasting trade of this country, what right had they to give her 'also the coasting trade of the colonies—what right had they co extend under the term "coasting trade," the trade from Boston, round South Ame rica, to California ? (H ear .) Y et that was one of their acts, and it was one that had almost ruined the shipping of the North American colonies. (Cheers.) Look at the extent and feeling. of those colonies. They contained 4,000,000 in telligent, loyal, and'patriotic men. They made an offer of two regiments for the Crimea, and one of their regiments was now in this country. The sympathies of the colonies were still further evinced in the Legislative grants and subscriptions for the Patriotic Fund and the Indian Mutiny Fund, of the distribution of which latter fund he was one of the managers. He did not recollect all the figures, but from the Australian colonies alone £70,000 werereceived in sub scriptions and grants. (Hear, hear.) If Great Britain were to withdraw her legions, let the colonies have fair notice. He was glad that the right hon. gentleman had given so proper an answer to the question put to him, and that his answer would go out to the colonies. If this country were to withdraw her troops, let there be an understandins , how and when they were to be withdrawn. He had had the satisfaction of bringing before the late Secretary of the Colonies a plan by which it would not :be necessary to keep a single soldier in Canada. If that chain of railways which ran from Halifax to New Bruns wick were completed by the construction of a small portion to Quebec, in 12 days, and at any :season of the year, the Government of this country could send as many troops as they liked to Canada, and they could not keep a single sol dier in that country. He was glad the discussion had taken this turn, and he was gratified that the Secretary for War had answered the question which had been put to him in so conciliatory and statesm an lik e a manner. (Loud cheers.) Mr. HORSMAN had heard with great satisfaction that the Secretary of State for War assented to some extent to his hon. and gallant friend's proposal for a commission. He wished to suggest that the of f icial element should be introduced in this commission as sparingly as possible, if even it were not excluded altogether; since one of its most important functions would be to review the proceedings that had already taken place under official authority. It would also be desirable to secure an early report, and a limit ought, he thought, to be put to the period at which the first report should be made. He did not see why the first report, not the final report, but embodying the main re commendations of the commission —should not be made within three months. He agiteed with the right hon. gen tleman that it was out of the question to attempt to fortify our coasts so as to prevent an enemy from landing. (Hear, hear.) The only fortifications required we're those that were necessary for the protection of our ships and arsenals. To build batteries along the coast for the enemy to land under was absurd. There was no doubt an enemy pos sessed greater facilities for landing and for the transport and embarkation of troops than he ever had before, and there were many points along the coast On which an enemy would have no great diffi cu lt y i n l anding. He agreed with General Shaw Kennedy that we should not be safe we had such an internal force upon our own soil as 'would defeat and destroy any enemy that might pin P landing. (Hear.) If that were so, the commission an';at to be ap pointed ought to recommend what amount of internal land force we ought always to maintain—how many troops of the Line, low many Militia and how many volunteers we racjoired so Ps to be always ha a state of perfect security. For a nation containing 3 ,000,000 or 4,000,000 male adults to be in a perpetual panic of an invasion of 100,000 or 200,000 men was a scandal and a burlesque. (Hear.) We ought always to be in such a condition that any army that was likely to obtain a landing would be certain to be de feated awl destroyed. The commission might make a valuable report, which would facilitate the proceedings of the Government in that house, and carry more weight than any statements on mere departmental authority that might be made in Committee of Supply. (Cheers.) Mr. C. FORTESCUE hoped that the return alluded to by the right hon, gentleman, which was rather a complicated one, would be laid on the table on Friday. The noble duke at the head of the Colonial-office would, he was confident, give his best consideration to the views expressed by the right hon. gentleman. opposite; but there was another side to the question, as they had heard from the distinguished colonist whom they were all glad to see in the house, and who was a brilliant representative of the true British spirit of the colonial subjects of this country. (Hear, hear.) He thought that his right hon. friend (Mr. S. Herbert) had struck a fair balance between imperial views and the colo nial side of the question, which had been so candidly and temperately stated by the hon. and learned gentleman. It must be remembered that the Home Government had to deal with a great number of communities scattered all over the world, differing in age, in means, resources, in the liability to attack, and the necessity for defence, and it was, therefore, impossible to adopt one uniform system in deal ing with them all. In many of these cases, too, the Home Government had not to deal with colonies subject to their abdolute authority, but had to negotiate with Governments possessing representative institutions and capable of acting in a great degree independently of the Home Government. The only mode in which the Imperial Government could in some cases act was by refusing to send British troops to particular colonies, or by saying they wou ld w ithd raw t h e troops now the re nless the colony paid for their mainte nance. That, however, was no light responsibility for a British Minister to assume. Lord ELCHO said he was glad to hear the Government intended to appoint a commission of the kind indicated by his right hon. friend the Secretary for War ; but some doubt appeared to exist in the house as to the extent of the powers :to bo conferred upon it. He was in hopes that the commission contemplated in the motion of his hon. and gal lant friend (Sir De L. Evans) had for its object an inquiry into the whole subject of the national defences—to deter mine the number of men, both of the regular army and the militia, which it was essential we should have in this coun try as a permanent force, available at all times ; what was the number of ships and sailors it was necessary to maintain as a permanent available naval force ; and what fortifica tions were indispensably requisite for the defence of , the kingdom. He thought it desirable that we should not be any longer liable, as we were now, to a constantly recurring state oepanic, which was fast becoming chronic, and which was unworthy a great nation. (Hear.) We ought, on the contrary, to be in a position which would render us inde pendent alike of the friendship or the enmity of all or any of the potentates of Europe. (Hear.) That object he conceived would be better attained by the commission proposed by his hon. and gallant friend than that contemplated by the Go vernment. Lord H. VANE contended that it was not in the power of any commission to lay down what should be the exact num ber of the troops, artillery, and ships requisite for the proper defence of the country, inasmuch as the defensive force ought always to be proportioned to the force of other coun tries from time to time, and have regard to the varying state of European politics. He hoped the commission proposed by the Government would be so constituted as to carry weight in the country as well among military men as civi lians, and that they would not incur expenditure of a kind aelculated rather to retard the work of national defence than to carry it out on a satisfactory footing. Sir DE L. EVANS reminded the house that the word "fortification" did not occur in his motion, and contended that it was totally absurd to think of fortifying the whole of our coasts. Lord PALMERSTON said, undoubtedly the object for which the commission announced by his right hon. friend (Mr. S. Herbert) would be appointed was one of great im portance, but he thought there would be no advantage in extending the range of the inquiry so as to embrace a vast variety of other subjects. He should hope his hon. and gallant friend (Sir De L ac y EV ans ) would be satisfied by the statement a his right hon. Mend the Secretary of State for War, and would not press his motion to a division, inas much as it seemed the object his hon. and gallant friend had in view would be accomplished by the course proposed by the Government. With regard to the proposal of his lion. friend the member for Stroud (Mr. Horsman)—namely, that the commission should be instructed to take a larger range of inquiry, and consider what amount of naval and military force was necessary for the defence of the country —he (Lord Palmerston) would submit that that was an in vestigation of a totally different nature from that contem plated by his right hon. "friend the Secretary for War. The object of his right hon. friend's commission would be to as certain what permanent works were essential or necessary for the defence of our different dockyards and arsenals. That once ascertained, and the necessary works themselves constructed, those works would remain as part of the per manent defences of the country, and would not vary from year to year. But the inquiry suggested as to what should be the amount of our naval and military force was a matter the determination of which must vary from year to year, according to the changing circumstances of this country and foreign . countries. He could, however assure his hon. friend the member for St rou d th a t the subject mooted by him had already occupied, and would continue to occupy, the attention of the Government ; and he trusted his hon. friend would be content with that assurance. Mr. AYRTON thought the commission proposed by the Government would not in the least degree meet the view contemplated by the motion of his hon. and gallant friend (Sir De Lacy Evans). From its very nature it would deal only with a small part of the great question which his hon. and gallant friend desired to have submitted to the house. It involved only engineering investigations connected with our inland defences, for which our engineers ought to be qualified. We had been supporting a large body of en gineers at a great cost for many years, and now, when it was proposed that something should be done for which they ought to be thoroughly qualified, a commission was to be appointed to supersede them in the discharge of their functions. (Hear.) The gallant general proposed a com mission of inquiry into our whole system, in order to ascer tain what should be the condition of our ordinary defences in time of peace, so that the people might be able to rest satisfied that whatever should happen they would be pro tected from aggression—(hear, hear)--to ascertain, in short, what should be the minimum force maintained in time of peace, and what the nature of that force should be. (Hear, hear.) Hitherto the array and navy had always been treated as separate and distinct from each other; but they were in fact so closely connected that tho question of the minimum of the one necessarily affected the other. They should therefore be treated as one in regard to the main ob jects for which they were maintained. (Hear, hear.) Most important questions were every day raised as to the strength of our navy, th e lik e lih oo d o f our obtain i ng a su fficient supply of men from the commerci a l mar ine in case of war (which could no t, h e th oug h t, b e attemp t e d wi th ou t de ranging commerce to such an extent as to render it imprac ticable)'and the necessity of having in time of peace a con stant reserve of able-bodied seamen. (Hear.) These were questions that ought to be investigated by a commission like this. In the same way there were many questions con nected with the army that called for inquiry, and these should also be intrusted to the consideration of this com mission. What was the use of an army in this country if it was not strong enough to repel invasion, or if, when inva sion was threatened, it could not be raised to such a strength as to render it really effective. (Hear.) That was a question which everybody asked. There should be an inquiry, therefore, 'as to the minimum force that ought to be main tained, and into the best means of raising it to a sufficient numerical strength to repel invasion; for, unless they - had always at hand such a reserve as would enable them to keep their army at its full strength, supposing the necessity to arise for its being brought into active service, it appeared to him to be perfectly useless. (Hear, hear.) The experience of the great Napoleon showed how rapidly an army would be used up when reserves were not to be had. (Hear.) It was a melancholy thing, after voting so many millions year by year to maintain the army and navy, to be told so often that there was neither an army nor a navy fit for the pur poses for which they were intended. (Elear, hear.) If the expenditure of the country had been conducted on a more wholesome system this state of things could not have ex isted ; but, looking at the circumstances in which we were pliteed, he thought the investigations of the commissioners should take a wider range than was proposed by the Go vernment. (Hear, hear.) [lt has lately been the practice to delay the lighting of the house se long as to cause some i nconvenience to the reporters in the gallery. During the delivery of Mr. Ayrton's speech the darkness became so great as to render note-taking a matter of considerable difficulty. This incon venience, no doubt, arises from inadvertence on the part of those charged with the lighting department, which a hint will be sufficient to remedy.] Mr. HORSMAN was understood to explain that he did not propose fixing our defensive forces at a rate which should not vary from year to year, but that there should be a minimum below which they should never be brought. GREENWICH HOSPITAL. Sir C NAPIER rose to call attention to the manage. • meat of Greenwich Hospital ; his object was to show that a different system of treatment was observed towards the sailors to that which was practised with reference° the officers. Any pensions received by the officers for wounds were retained, whilst those of the men were given up from the moment they entered the hospital. From a return which he held in his h an d , i t appeared that te officers received £25.593 in salaries, while the charge for the men was £33,163, the latter being obliged to give up pay and pension and to accept a s hilli ng a week i n ad di t i on to their board, lodging, and clothing in the hospital. The salary of the governor was £2,759, lieutenant governor £1;345, senior captain £740, and so on, all handsome incomes, - whilst the poor sailors were kept on the barest pittance. Another complaint he had to make was, that neither the go vernor nor lieutenant-governor had any power, all authority being confided to three commissioners, who were retained at handsome salaries out of the funds of the hospital. Havingrecited one or two minor causes of complaint the gallant admiral concluded by moving that a humble address be presented to her Majesty for a commission to in quire into the management of Greenwich Hospital. The SPEAKER informed the hon. and gallant member that his motien could not be put, there being one amend ment already before the chair. The amendment alluded to was put and negatived. Sir C. NAPIER asked if he could then put his motion ? The SPEAKER answered in the negative and the mo tion fell to the ground. SUPPLY. The house went into committee of supply, and the dis cussion on the vote f or I r i s h education - was resumed. Mr. WILLIAMS complained of the vote for the agricul tural schools in Ireland, which he contended should be sup ported by the landlords of that country. The agricultural school at Glasnevin was, he understood, a complete job, and in others, charges were set down which he thought wholly beyond the scope of such institutions. He moved that the vote be reduced by the sum of L 22,689. Mr. MONSELL remarked that the hon. member who so severely criticised this vote had not made any objection to the £826,000 which had been passed for England. It must be admitted that the arts referred to were most useful for the children to learn, and unless it could b e s h own th at t h e in struction was not well given no case had been shown for re ducing the vote. Mr. CARDWELL—His hon. friend said that he did not object to theteacking in the parish and local schools. (Hear, hear.) The local agricultural schools were necessary to in struct the people in useful industrial arts, and to make those sckools efficient, the model agricultuaal school, near Dub Pat, was necessary, for the purpose of providing proper ttrAchers. The teaching of the female population in indus trial habits, useful in after life, was equally important, and Government would have neglected their duty, when public money was voted for the purpose of educating the people in Ireland, if they had not provided both for the training of competent teachers in the arts of agriculture and for instruct ing the female part of the pdpulation in needlework and other industrial arts which pertain to female instruction. The charge for the higher branches of agricultural science would be discontinued in future yeirs, and he trusted there fore that no objection would be pi•essed against the vote. Mr. HADFIELD asked why they should pay the public money for teaching agriculture in Ireland ? Did the public pay for teaching cutlery in Sheffield, or cotton spimung in Manchester? for there was no more justice in the one than the other. It was against all correct principles to grant public money for teaching the population any science or art, and he should divide with Mr. Williams. No ground could be advanced for such a practice now, as there might have been 20 years ago, in consequence of the low state of Agri culture in Ireland. The idea of granting public money for teaching music or needlework was really too absurd. Mr. BLACKBURN also thought it a mistake to make public grants for teaching trades. Mr. HENNESSY supported the vote. Mr. WILLIAMS was glad to understand that the items he objected to were in course of diminution. He was in no way opposed to a grant for education in Ireland, but what he objected to was the application of this £22,000. He would say the proper course was to leave the schools in Ireland to con tribute for those things if they were needed. He would not divide. Mr. WHITESIDE wished to confirm a statement made in the morning as to the necessity of increasing the payment of schoolmasters in Ireland. He suggested that the number of the schoolmasters of the national board should be dimi nished, and their pay increased. He adyocated the church education system as against the national, and held that nineteen-twentieths of the whole Protestant population of Ireland were in favour of the reading of the Scriptures in schools. That being the case, on what conceivable system was it that they were to be taxed for education, while no regard was paid to their wishes ? The Presbyterian body had said distinctly that they would not take the vote on the con dition of not reading the Scriptures in the schools. The principle, therefore, of the board was gone. If they took care to provide proper payment for the schoolmasters, and thus obtained properly qualified moral and religious teachers, there would be no such crimes committed as a noble lord had referred to in an earlier part of the day as that in which certain schoolmasters had been implicated. When it was considered what was the state of the population of Ireland, some change ought to be made, as much in the interest of the Roman Catholics as of the Protestants. As far as the Church wets concerned, the opinion of its members was that education based on the Scriptures could not be changed, and he therefore urged that some change should be made in the system which would be more in accordance with the feelings and opinions of all classes in Ireland. Mr. M'CANN agreed with the right hon. member for Tiverton, who gave the fairest description of the national system of education in Ireland, whilst it contributed to do more good in that country than anything which the British Parliament had ever done for it. Mr. A. MILLS said he felt it was of importance that the salaries of the national schoolmasters should be raised, which would tend to raise the status of the schools in the south, which were very far below the proper standard. The amendment was withdrawn, and the vote agreed to. The next vote was £650 for the Commissioners of Edu cation in Ireland. £3,650 for the University of London was agreed to. The next vote, £7,650 for Universities in Scotland, was also agreed to. As was £2,297 for the Queen's University in Ireland. On the next vote, £2,800, to defray certain expenses of the Queen's colleges in Ireland. Mr. HENNESSY wished it to be explained why the sum of £4,800, which was the whole amount of the vote, had been continued at the same amount since 1854, which was to supply the deficiency of fees by students. Mr CARDWELL said that there was a complete account given of every item of the vote in the report of the commis. sioners. The circumstance of the students not being so numerous as was expected, and the reduction of the amount of fees, was the cause of the vote. Vote agreed to. The next vote, £5OO for the Royal Irish Academy, was agreed to. On the vote of £1,500 for theological professors at Belfast and Belfast Academical Institution, Mr. BAXTER said he was always ashamed of this vote. He could not see why a large and wealthy denomination should not pay its own professors. This was a cognate vote to that of Maynooth, and he begged to point out to the hon. member for Warwickshire that if they succeeded iu getting rid of this vote, it would be clearing the way for abolishing the grant to Maynooth. He moved the reduction of the vote by £450, the retired allowances of professors of the Belfast Academical Institution. Mr. WILLIAMS briefly expressed his objections to the vote. After a few words of explanation from Mr. CARDWELL as to the amount of the salaries of the theological professors at Belfast included in this vote, being six at £250 each, Mr. HADFIELD remarked that the Presbyterians of Ireland were the only non-conformist body in the United Kingdom who received money out of the taxes of the coun try, and the result was that there were no dissenters who behaved so stingily to their own ministers. He thought it would really be doing them a service to deprive them of the grant. Mr. WHITESIDE defended the grant. He said the Presbyterians of Ireland belonged to the Established Church of Scotland, and ought not to be described as dissenters. It would be impolitic, whilst voting £30,000 a-year for May nooth, to take this small sum away from a body to whom the country was indebted for Christian instruction. Mr. ARNOTT bore testimony to the deserving character and services of the Presbyterian clergy of Ulster, whose incomes were by no means too large. Mr. BLACK objected to the vote, not on account of its amount, but because he regarded it as vicious in principle. The house then divided— For the vote Against it £47,425, to complete the sum of the estimate for the esta blishment of the British Museum. Mr. WALPOLE said there was a reduction in this vote as compared with that of last year, amounting to £1,875. It was gratifying to add that there was a large increase in the number of students, and of the number of books of which they made use. The number of books returned to the shelves in the library during the year had been 177,290; in the royal library, 12,428 ; in the Grenville library, 687 ; in the closets, 122,102; in the reading-room, 564,000; total, 8,76,000, which was at the rate of 3,000 books per diem. Last year the number was 576,000. During the year two vacant trusteeships had been filled up, aid he had no doubt that the appointments would give the greatest satisfaction. That in the nomination of the crown had been filled by Dr. Cureton, and that by the trustees by Mr. Grote. Mr. GREGORY said it would be in the recollection of many hon. gentlemen that in the last Parliament he had moved for a committee to inquire into the state of the Mu seum. He had shown on that occasion that the Museum was in a state of hopeless confusion; tnat valuable collec tions were wholly hidden from the public, and that great portions of other collections were in danger of being de stroyed by damp and neglect. Next session he intended to bring forward the subject, unless indeed he should find the necessity of his doing so removed. He hoped the Govern ment in the recess would seriously consider whether the natural history collection should not be removed from the Museum; a step in favour of which he believed there was a growing conviction in the public mind. If they decided ,on that the next question would be, whither ? He warned the Government that if they attempted to remove it to Kensington they would encounter an opposition as serious and as successful as that which was raised against the removal of the National Gallery. There could be no doubt that Regent's -park would be a far preferable locality; but there were insuperable difficulties in the way of erecting suitable buildings in the park. There was only one other site that need be discussed, and that was the ground adjoining the present one. He should like to see a great division between what might for shortness be called the works of nature and the works of man. He would re commend a north front devoted to natural history and kindred subjects, leaving the present building to works of literature and art. He thought that there ought to be a complete division between the two branches, for it was utterly impossible that any one mind should take in the details of an establishment so varied and so bewildering in • the multiplicity of its details. He trusted, too, that what ever plan was adopted for the re-arrangement of the Mu seum, some attention would be paid to the suggestions of the heads of the departments. He hoped that they should hear no more of Mr. Smirke making plans which were in direct opposition to the wishes of Professor Owen and Mr. Hawkins. He trusted, in short, that the Museum, in its arrangements, would be made a credit to the nation. There was another subject which he must, press upon the atten tion of the house—namely, the necessity of making the Museum a place of instruction instead of a place of exhi bition. No part of his remarks at the early part of the year had been so favourably received by the house and the press; and he felt sure that he could carry against any government a resolution affirming the principle for which he was contend ing. He had no desire to assume a point of hostility to the government, but so important did he regard the subject that he should feel bound to persevere. (Hear, hear.) He be lieved that the assistants were the worst paid and the worst used in the public service. (Cheers.) Those gentlemen required a special education, and that of a very high cha racter. Yet the utmost at which they could ever aspye was a salary of £3OO per annum, except one fortunate indivi dual, who might perhaps become the head of a department. He believed there was a division amongst the trustees on this subject, and that the noble lord (Russell) was in favour of a more generous policy towards the assistants. The assistants in the Museum, had only twenty-four days' va cation during the year, whereas in their other public estab lishments the officers had eight weeks. By working men to death they did not get better or cheaper work from them. If they had more time many of these gentlemen might visit foreign Museums, and the country would to some ex tent benefit by the larger experience they acquired. It was because these gentlemen were men of studious and retired habits, and did not mix themselves up in politics that they were thus treated. He hoped the Government would take the matter up and deal with it in a satisfactory manner, Mr. MILNES said he felt bound to add his testimony to the observations of his hon. friend. He knew the gen tlemen to whom his hon. friend alluded, and a more deserv ing class of persons could not be found. It was not for the honour of the country . that they should be left in the state of honourable poverty in the which on instthiteuytiwerwe ansownopwlaced. believed the working of satisfac tory. The reading -room was an object of admiration, not only in this, but in ether countries. He would suggest, as an improvement, that small reading-rooms should be at tached to the general one in which men of literary genius who were engaged in works of importance should be allowed to conduct their inquiries. (Hear, hear.) He thought that the provincial libraries could be very usefully assisted from the treasures which were contained in the British Museum. Mr. TURNER considered the assistants of the Museum to be very ill-used. They were men of high education, yet they were not able to live like gentlemen or give edu cation to their children. He knew one who was obliged to give up what might be called his title of honour as a mem ber of a learned society, because he had not the means of paying the small sum which would entitle him to remain a member. When the inspectors of military boots and clothes were paid £3OO a-year, he thought it a disgrace that these gentlemen in the Museum should be so ill paid. (Hear, hear.) Mr. SCULLY observed that there were many objections made to small votes for Irish purposes, but he had not heard objections made to similar items in the votes for educational purposes in this country. Mr. DANBY SEYMO UR said he had the acquaintance and the friendship of some of the asisstants in the Museum, and he could bear his testimony to what had been said of them. It was only surprising that the trustees, who were some of the moat eminent men in the country should allow this state of things to continue so long. If the national collection was broken up, and a portion of it carried to Ken sington, it would be unfair to the people at the other side of London. The people of Victoria-park were just as well entitled to a collection of their own as the people of Ken sington. The design of the British Museum by Mr. Smirk° was a bad one, and the money which was spent in its decoration, £530,000, was a pure job. Mr. TITE observed that it was Sir R. Smirke who de signed-the Museum, and it was his brother Mr. Smirke, who carried out the decorations. He thought the hon. gentle man was mistaken as to the expense of the decorations. He would suggest the propriety of finding room in the Museum for the exhibition of the interesting and curious monuments which had been brought from Halicarnassus, and which were now placed where they could not be viewed. Sir J. SHELLEY wished to ask the right hon. gentle man (Mr. Walpole) whether arrangements could not be made for keeping open the Museum to a later hour on Saturday than the other days of the week, so as to enable the working classes to spend their Saturdry half-holiday there. Mr. WALPOLE said with regard to the separation of the collections in the Museum, he was convinced no committee of the house would be able to deal with that subject in the proper way. It would require the hand and authority of the executive government to deal with it as it ought to be deal with. He hoped the Government, therefore, would consider it during the recess. The second point to which the hon. gentleman referred was the arrangement, but he did not think he need answer his observations after the testimony which had been given by the hon. member for Pontefract. He might add, however, that within'the last ten days one of the most scientific men in Europe came to see this collection, and he was not only delighted with the collectionitself, but with the manner in which it was arranged . The third point was that lectures ought to be delivered. That was a most difficult question. Individually, he thought that these collections might be made the most of without instruction, but if they were to give lectures how was the lecturer to give them ? and how, was he to be paid ? and was the Museum after all the proper place in which to deliver tl- 31311 ? Then it should be remembered that the Museum was a collection and not a school for instruction. The next point was the remuneration given to the assistants, which the hon. mem ber for Pontefract had put with that benevolence for which he, was so famous. Now he (Mr. Walpole) did not mean to say that any one of these gentlemen was paid according to his attainments; but who was. (Laughter.) Talk of at tainments, why if Professor Owen were paid according to his attainments, he would be paid a higher salary than the first Minister of the Crown. He did not wish to prevent the Government raising these salaries, but only two years ago this matter was fully gone into by officers appointed by the Treasury. The salaries in many instances were raised, and if the officers wanted them raised higher, let the matter be considered again, but if hon. members agreed to this, he hoped they would not come down to the house and complain of the increase of the civil estimates year by year. The hon. 'member for Pontefract suggested that several small: rooms should be set aside - for eminent literary men when they wished to consult books, but had he con sidered the full extent of the proposition, and the amount of jealousy which such a course would create ? His (Mr. Walpole's) belief was that in the reading-room they had provided as much accommodation as they could in a public , institution, and if there was an exceptional case, such as the hon. member mentioned, let application be made to the trustees, and he was sure they would meet it. With re ference to the excavations that had been alluded to, they were certainly in a 'disreputable state ; but that opened the whole question of extending the building. His opinion was that they must extend it northwards till they took in the whole length of the street —nay, more, till it included the whole of the area, and there should be a north entrance. As to extending the hours for the working classes, it was a mistake to suppose that they used the Museum much on, a Saturday. Monday was their great day, and he very much doubted whether opening the Museum on a Saturday even ing would be a great boon to them. That involved the question of light and fires, and he doubted whether the good to be derived from this additional opening would be equivalent to the danger and the expense. He was only a junior trustee, but he must say he never saw an institu tion in which greater anxiety was manifested to give accom modation to the public in every possible way. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Walpole), speaking as an indi vidual, had proposed that the houses in the neighbourhood should be purchased, that the Museum might be enlarged. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) spoke as an individual also, and he looked upon the plan with great alarm, as in volving a great expenditure. The subject of increased accommodation was one which called for immediate atten tion, and it would be the duty of the Government, as soon as circumstances would permit, to bring th e ques ti on i nto a state of ripeness for decision ; but, at the same time, he felt more than ordinarily the necessity of caution, on account of the extraordinary demand on the public purse, and on that subject he s p o k e l ess freely than he might do under more favourable circumstances. Another point was as to the salaries and the vacations enjoyed, or rather suffered ; for according to the hon. member (Mr. Gregory) the officers were in a state of suffering. He thought that it the officers conceived they had reason to complain, they ought to have carried their complaint first to the trustees, and if they did not get justice from them, to the Treasury, and only as a last resort have appealed to that house. It should be remembered that these were agreeable offices in them selves, which was an important item in considering the salaries. The vote was then agreed to. The sum of £12,270 for new buildings at the British Museum was also agreed to. On the next vote, £15,985 for the National Gallery being put, Mr. DA NBY SEYMOUR moved that the chairman re port progress. The CHAIRMAN put the question and declared the noes had it, but as Mr. SEYMOUR called for a division, Lord PALMERSTON said he would not ask the house to take a vote which might create disoussion at that time of night. (DP was then 12 o'clock.) The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and The house resumed. The Boundaries (Ireland) Bill passed through com mittee. The Westminster New Bridge Bill was read a third time and passed. The Consolidated Fund (X 7,000,000) Bill was read 'a third time and passed. The Queen's Remembrance; &c., Bill was read a second time. The Police (Counties and Boroughs) Law Amendmint Bill was read a second time. The Constabulary Force (Ireland) Bill was committed pro forma. The Vexatious Indictments Bill was read a second time. The Fireworks Act Amendment Bill was read a second time. The Dwellings for Labouring Classes (Ireland) Bill passed through committee. The Adulteration of Food, &c., Prevention Bill passed through committee pro forma. LOCOMOTIVE BILL. The house resolved itself into committee on this bill. Sir G. C. LEWIS said no doubt it was desirable that locomotive engines should be perinitted to travel along turnpike roads, provided they could do so with safety; but - so far as he was at present advised, he thought the permis sion might be attended with danger and therefore suggested the postponement of the bill until further evidence could be • adduced on the subject. Mr. RIDLEY and Mr. GARNETT defended the bill. Mr. HEADLAM thought the evidence which had been adduced was decidedlyfavourable to the bill, but agreed with the Home Secretary in recommending the postponement of the measure to a future day. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and Mr. GARNETT gave notice of his intention to move that the evidence given before the committee be printed. PAWNBROKERS' BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. MILITIA BALLOT SUSPENSION, Mr. S. HER BERT obtained leave to bring in a bill to suspend the making of lists and the ballots of the United Kingdom. _ - MILITARY S S. Mr. S. HERBERT obtained leave to BANK bring in a bill to amend and consolidate the laws relating to military savings banks. DISEMBODIED MILITIA. Mr. S. HERBERT moved that the following members constitute a select committee to prepare estimates of the charge of the disembodied militia of Great Britain and Ire land for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1860 : Mr. Sidney Herbert, General Peel, the Judge Advocate, Sir G. Lewis, Mr. Ellice, Sir J. Ramsden, Mr. Geo. Clive, Colonel Kingscote, Colonel Wilson Patten, Colonel Smyth, Colonel Pinney, Colonel North, and all colohels of militia; five to be the quorum. Mr. VINCENT SCULLY complained that Irish mem bers were excluded from this as well as from most other committees. There was not a single Irishman in the Cabi net, and it seemed therefore to be forgotten that there was an Irish member in the house. A committee was also about to be appointed to inquire into the state of the Thames ; but, as usual, it was to comprise no Irishmen, probably be cause it was supposed th a t I r i s h members had not as sensi tive olfactories as their English brethren. (A laugh.) He gave notice that he should bring this subject forward early next session and divide the house upon it. Mr. S. HERBERT thought the assertion of the exclu sion of Irishmen rather unjust. The head of the Cabinet was an Irishman, and there were several Irishmen on this committee—among whom he might mention Mr. Sidney Herbert (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Mr. V. SCULLY had never heard the fact just ho was glad to sal u t e th e noble lord (Palmerston )and ated; the n and; Secretary at' ar as broth er I r i s h men. The committee was th en appointed. (Laughter.) ROMAN CATHOLIC CHARITIES. Sir G. LEWIS moved for leave to bring in a bill to place Roman Catholic charities on the same footing as other charities. At the present time charities for Roman Catholics were void as against the statute of charitable uses. He now proposed to alter this, making the charities, however, Sub ject to the Statute of Mortmain . Mr. KINNAIRD rejoiced that the Government had at length dealt with this subject. Ample time ought however to be given for the house to consider its provisions. Leave was given to bring in the bill. MANUFACTURES (IRELAND). Mr. CARDWELL obtained leave to bring in a bill on this subject. DUBLI POLICE Pill brought in by Mr . CARDWECLLBILL. QUEEN'S PRINTERS' PATENT. On the motion of Mr. BAINES ; Lord R. Montague was added to the select committee. The Thames Conservancy and Poor Law Boards Com mittees were severally nominated. The house adjourned at a quarter past 1 o'clock. • LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sues Office, No, 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county of Middlesex, Tuesday, July 26, 1869. ' 1