The Sun. — London, England, 1858-02-13 00:00:00

;1 / eiseeee--- _ their functions, are yet a totally irresponsible body, h us e views and acts are seldo m known to the public,and wwhether known or unknown, whether approved or dis approved, unless one of the directors happens to have a seat in this house, are out of the range of Parliamentary discussion. A gain, as regards our interest in India, I may state at once that the bill which we are proposing to the house is confined entirely and solely to a change in the administrative organisation at home, and that we do not intend to make any alteration in the existing arrange ments in India. In fact, if Parliament were to adopt the measure which we are about to propose, the only differ ence as far as India is concerned would be that the next despatch would go out signed by the President and the Council for Indian Affairs, instead of by the Court of Directors, and that the reply would be addressed to the President of the new Board, instead of to the chairman of the body sitting in Leadenhall-street. There can be no doubt that in India the name of the Sovereign of a great empire like this must be far more r espected, far more calculated to produce moral a nd political impressions, than the name of a company of merchants, however de serving. We have to deal with princes, some ruling in dependently, and some in a state of modified dependence upon us, and with fe udal chiefs p roud of their position, c herishing traditionary recollections of a wide empire, and of great sovereigns to whom their ancestors owed allegiance. flow can we expect such men tofeel any great respect for a mere company of merchants! The respect they would feel, the allegiance they would give, would be increased tenfold if the one were given and the other tendered to the Sovereign of a great and mighty empire. I believe that what gives force to the Company in India is net the fame or authority of the Company itself, but the knowledge which the p.ople have that behind the Companyand strengthening it is the power of the British empire, and that, although the nominal ruler may be an officer of a commercial nation, the real ruler is the Sove reign of this great country. I am therefore satisfied that the tranerer of the Government of India to the Crown would, as far as its effect upon the people is concerned, the ed be equivalent to a large reinforcement of t roops; be most h impression which would be produced wou ld most ad vantageous, and would consolidate and strengthen the moral and political influence of England in those regions of the world. What, then, is the arrangement which we are about to propose We wish to alter things as little as we can consistently with the great object we have in view. That object is to make the responsible advisers of the Crown answerable for the government of India as well as for that of all our other possessions beyond seas. We wish that the affairs of India should be administered by men responsible to Parliament for the manner in which that country is governed. We propose, therefore, that the functions of the Court of Directors, and of the Coact of Proprietors, should cease; that there should be substituted for those bodies a President, assisted by a Council, for the affairs of India ; that that President should be a member of the Government, and should be the organ of the Cabinet with reference to all matters re lating to India ; but, as men who have distinguished themselves in public life, and who are likely from time to time, as changes of Administration occur, te be placed at the head of that department, could not be supposed to possess that detailed local knowledge which is essential to the wise government of the country, we propose that the President should be assisted by a council composed of persons named by the Crown, with the condition that they should either have been directors of the East India Company, have served a certain period in India in a civil or military capacity, or have resided there a certain num ber of years unconnected with the local administration. We propose that that council should consist of 8 mem bers, that they should be appointed for 8 years, and that two should retire by rotation every 2d year, in order that successive administrations may be able to renew the council from time to time by the introduction of persons returning from India with fresh knowledge and ideas. We think that while, on the one hand, the permanency of a councillor for eight years will make him an in dependent adviser of the President, he will not, on the other, by being appointed for life, block up the way to the accessionlof other persons who may be more capable of serving the country. (Hear.) Of c arm, as the proposal is to transfer to the Government of the day full responsibility for the management of Indian affairs, and as the President will be the organ of the Cabinet upon Indian matters, just as the Secretary of State for the Colonies and the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs are the organs of the Government in regard to the depart ments under their respective care, the decision of the President must be final in all matters which may be treated of in the Council. But if we propose that if the councillors differ in opinion from the President they shall have the right to record that difference, together with their reasons, upon the minutes of the Council, so as to be able to justify themselves afterwardsjor having differed from the President. The full power of the President, however, will not extend to matters involving increased expense to the Indian revenue, and for purposes of that sort it will be necessary that he shall have the concurrenee of four councillors to any proposals which he may ,have to submit. In the temporary absence of the President a Secretary of State will be able to act for him, and four members of the Council will be a quorum for the transaction of busi ness. We propose that the Council shall have the power of distributing among themselves the business which comes to them, so as to allot different departments of business to different members of extract', who will make reports to the Council itself. We propose that the Pre sident shall be placed on the footing of a Secretary of State, and that the councillors shall have a salary of 1,0001. a-year each. We propose that all powers vested in the Court of Directors shall be transferred to this Council, and, therefore, that all appointments which have hitherto been made by the Court of Directors or others, subject to the approbation of the Crown, shall be made by the Crown direct, but that all appoint ments in India which have hitherto been made by local authorities shall be continued, so that no part of the local Indian patronage will be transferred to the Govern ment of this country. (Cheers.) We propose that the President shall be able to appoint one secretary, who shall be capable of sitting in this house. It will be con venient that a Cabinet Minister holding that situation shall have the assistance of a secretary conversant with tthe business which may come trader discussion : but we do not propose that the councillors shall be capable of sitting in Parliament. (Hear, bear.) We think there would be great inconvenience in such an arrangement ; that they would become party men I that they would necessarily associate with one aide or the other in this house, and that, with changes of administration, the relations between the President and the councillors might then become exceedingly embarrassing. (Hear.) One point which has always attracted the attention of those who have considered these matter', and which has created even a very considerable constitutional difficulty, has been the question of patronage. Many men have said that they think the Government of India a cumbrous and antiquated machine whioh ought to be done away with. That was the opinion in 1833 of a great number of those who took part in the discussion, but it was always said, " How can we manage with the patronage' We do not wish to increase the patronage of the Government, and we fear that this transfer would make that augmentation." But as I have said with regard to local appointments, all those appointments which have hitherto been made either by the Govercsr- General or by other authorities in India witl continue exactly as before to be made by them, the members of the local council being named by the Governor-General instead of being named hence. An arrangement was made in 1853 by which all appointments to writerships were given by open competition. Teat arrangement we shall of course maintain. (Cheers.) Writerships, therefore, are beyond the range of patronage. The appointments to cadetships have hitherto been divided between members of the Court of Directors and the President of the Board of Control. What we propose is to leav e the appoint ments to those ca d etships as they haveb e en hitherto. The reduction from the number m m s b o er e o w f ht d a irectors to the number of co unc ill ors will giro patronage to the cou nc ill ors, b ut the addition to tae patronage of the President w ill b e hardly erce Cbl e. a It must be remembered that hith erto wo have i had pi an enormous native army, and it d oes no t seem nrobab i e that we shall keep up that force to the same amount. (Hoar.) As regards the civil appointments, they will remain matters of public competition, and as regards appointments to cadetships, they will be made as Ihaze stated, with, probably, the additional conditions that the cadets shall be appointed to probation in some military college, their final appointments to regiments depending on the efficiency of their studies. There is one condition which we propose to attach to this distri• bastion of cadetships—viz e that a certain proportion of first appointments, which we cannot fix in a Bill, but which mo s t b e left to the discretion of the Counc i l from I j te t to time, s h a ll b e reserved for the sons o f c i v il an d ary ofileers who have served in India. (Cheers.) According to that arrangement it will be seen of that no addition patronage will devolve upon the exe cutive Government of an account to excite constitutional jealouy o n th e Part will il t l he Ro use o f C ommons . (Hear. The army i n I ndia ) troops, fornaing part of consist, regular ar m y o f thi s coun t r y, as heretofore, of Queen's and local corps art in I ndia. Wi t h regard to Queen ' s troops no change will others, they will be transferrmeadteo:he sam e con di t i ons of the With e ro w r e n g f a o r r d t h t o e s t e h r e . vice of the company, subject tod service as those under whi c h the y were justice th ey will enlisted, an d if dislike that change I think in com mon rn be entitled to their discharge. gard to local military services, that theloop proposed , with re . paid out of the revenues of India, and that their shall N l be are paid out of t he e 2 alial limited to Asia so long as they Indian retreats°. At present, I believe, the limit of service for the company's troops is as far as any place eastwa rd of the Cape. It is proposed that if at any time a part of the local army shall be employed out of Asia, the troops shall then not he paid out of the Indian revenue. It must be for this house to determine whether a force so employed shall be paid out of the revenue of this country and whether their employment is consonant with what the interests of India may be. It is proposed that, whereas we transfer te this President of the Coun cil the functions of the Court of Directors and Board of Control, both of which will be abolished, the functions and powers of the secret committee, which govern mat ters, involving great discretion and temporary secrecy, should be vested in the President, as representative of the responsible Ministers of the Crown. But we propose that in any case in which orders shall be sent to India involving the immediate commencement of hostilities communication thereof shall be made to Parliament within one month, if Parliament be then sitting, or within one month after Parliament shall next meet. Tbat interval will prevent in j ur y to the public will service by the p u blfcation of orders so issu ed, while it give Parlia ment the opportunity of calling upon n the Government for explanation of the causes for which such orders were issued. Of course it will be necessary that there should be an effective audit of the revenues of India and their applications It is required by this bill that the revenue shall be applied solely for purposes of government in India. It is proposed that an auditor shall be appointed with the power of appointing assistant auditors for the purpose of examining minutely the accounts of receiptfl and expenditure, and that the accounts when audited shall be laid before Parliament. Of course power will be given to the President of the Council to issue to the Company such sums as may be necessary to defray the expenditure required for paying their dividends and keeping their books, until the Company determine whether they will or will not avail themselves of the option given them of being paid in a certain time for their stock. This, then, is, generally speaking, the outline of our measure. Of course, the details would come under the consideration of the house if it should, as I trust it will, give us leave to bring in the bill ; and when the bill shall be in the hands of hon. members, they will then have to consider the details, such as I has e described, as well as some other points which I have not thought it necessary to advert to. But the question now to be considered is simply the great and large question, whether or not we shall transfer to the esecutive and respeneible Ministers of the Crown the direction of the affairs of our Indian territories, or whether that direction shall be leftlas heretofore under the cumbrous and compli cated system described as the double government, which, in my opinion, is full of embarrassment and calculated to accomplish the purpose good government ought to have in view—(hear) —and which, though continued heretofore, because no great events called on Parliament to reconsider it, ought, I think, to be abolished without further delay. (Hear, hear.) Now, Ido not think I shall be met by objections to this principle itself, because, when I recollect what has passed on former occasions in this house, and when I know what is the general opinion of the country on the point, I cannot persuade myself that we shall meet with any strong opposition to the general principle on which the measure is founded. (Hear.) When I look back to see what passed in 1353, fIL'I some of the Indira' members of this house ex pressed strong opinions that the time must come at no distant period when an entire change must be made, and that the introduction of Government members into the East India direction was only the first step to a further and ulterior measure ; and the only doubt was whether a full measure ought not at that time to be adopted, But whatever may have been the opinion of Parliament at that time, I am much mist aken as to the signs and indications of opinion in the country now if the nation at large had not made up its mind that this .euble government ought to be made to cease. (Hear.) I am convinced that this is the opinion of the country, and great disappointment would be felt if this house should negative the bill upon an objection to the principle itself on which it is founded. (Hear, hear.) We shall no doubt be met by a motion for delay, and be told that this is not the time for discussing the measure—(hear) —that India is unsettled ; that we should wait until a calmer period, and until the difficulties in India are over. Why, that plea for delay is invariably the plea set tip by those who are anxious to oppose that which they cannot resist directly, but which they wish to get rid of by th• intermediate policy of proposing del iy. (Hear.) They say, " Da not alter the machine of government at a time when India is nnsettled and in daoslty, when you have not fully got rid of the mutiny, and when you have not entirely re-established authority in every part of the country." What does that argument amount to when it is analysed ? It is said, "Do not change your Government now, because there is in India that to be done which is difficult to be accomplished, and which therefore it might require great power to accomplish." Will, then, any man pretend that a single Government at home will not be a much more effectual instrument for the purpose than a double Government ? (Rear.) Will any man pretend to tell me with a ♦iew to rapidity of discussion, unity of purpose, and responsibility to the public, a Government administered by the responsible advisers of the Crown would not be a far more efficient instrument for everything to be done here than the exist ing conflict of checks and counter-checks, the system of previous c)mmunications and subsequent communica- Cons, of objections to a d, oda tch and as transfer by cabs from one part of the town to another, by which delay was created, so that a despatch which ought to go out to-morrow might not go out for a month, or be ready until it was too late to send it out. Why, no reasonable man will venture to get, up and tell the house that the present machine can be so effective and so powerful a machine for administration at home as the machine we propose to substitute for it. ',Hear, hear.) Will any man acquainted with India tell me that the name of the Com peny (which is now pretty well seen through by the natives in India) can have half or the tenth part of the powerful influence of the name of the Crown. (Hear.) I declare it is nonsense to say that the Indian chiefs would not feel ten times more respect for the Rajah of England than for the name of an unknown company. (Cheers and laughter.) Well, then, I say, if we look te India, the machine which we propose to substitute is a much m , re powerfulmachine, and infinitely more inflaan tial than the existing one. Then we are told that there is a state of difficulty in India, and what is the proposal of those who want delay They say that is order to overcome this difficulty and to restore tranquillity in India, which we are told is a matter of great difficulty and which will require great strength and power to effect, we should prolong the existence of the present weak system, instead of substituting for it a stronger, more powerful, and more effectual system. (Hear.) In that argument there is no sense, I submit. (Hear.) However, we shall be told by some that the Government of India is a great mystery—that the unholy ought not to set foot in that temple—that the House of Commons should be kept aloof from any interference in Indian affairs—that if we tranfer the Government to the Minis ters responsible to Parliament, we shall have Indian affairs made the subject of party passions in this house, and that great mischief would arise therefrom. I think that argument is founded on an overlooking of the fundamental principles of the British constitution. (Hear.) It is a reflection on Parliamentary government. The management of India is mainly dependent on those general principles of statesmanship, which men in public life in this country Acquire here, and make the guidance of their future coarse. I do not think so ill of this house as to imagine that it would be disposed for factious purposes or for the momentary triumph of party to trifle with the great interests of the country as connected with the administration of our Indian affairs. (Hear.) I am accustomed to think that the Parliament of this country does cembine in itself as much adminis trative ability and as much statesmanlike knowledge and science as are possessed by any number of men in any other country whatever, and I own, with all repect for the Court of Directors, teat I cannot bring myself to think that the Parliament of England is less capable or wisely administering great affairs of State in connection with India than the Court of Directors in Leadenhall rtreet. I am not afraid to trust Parliament with an in sight into Indian affairs. (Hear, hear.) I believe, on the contrary, that if things have not gone on so fast in India as they might have done—if the progress of im provement has been somewhat slower than might have been expected, that effect has arisen from the circum• stances that the public at large were wholly ignorant of Indian affairs, and had turned away from them, being daunted by the complications they imagined them to be involved in ; and because Parliament has never had face to face, in this and the other house, men personally and entirely responsible for the administration of Indian affairs. No doubt a good deal has been done in the way of improvement of late years, but that which has been done I may venture to say, has been entirely the result of debates in this and the other house of Parlia ment. (Hear.) And, so far from any discussion on India having worked evil in India, I believe that the greater part of thoseimprovements which the East India Directors boast of in that publication which has lately issued from Leadenhall-street has been the result of pres sure on the Indian administration by debates in Parlia ment and discussions in the public press. Therefore, so far from being alarmed at the corei . :quencee which may arise from bringing Indian affairs under the cognizance of Parliament, I believe that a great benefit to India, and through India to the British nation, will result therefrom. Therefore, I say, I see no reason, either on the score of principle or on the score of the augmenta tion of patronage, or on the score of time or con- titu tional danger, why w e should not at once pass the measure which it will be my duty to present to the House. I trust that Parliament will feel that great power is not given to nations without corresponding duties to be performed. We have, by an almost miraculous train of events, been intrusted with the destinies of 150 or 160 millions of men—with the government, directly or indirectly, of a vast empire larger in extent than all the face of Europe, putting the Ressian empire out of the question, That is a task which involves great responsibility. (Hear.) Do not imagine that it is the intention of Providence that England should possess that vast empire, and that we should have in our hand the destinies of that vast snultitude of men, simply that we may send out to India the sons of gentlemen or of the middling classes to make a decent fortune to live on. That power has been in trusted to us for other purposes ; and I think it is the duty of this nation to use it in such a manner as to pro• mote, as far as they can, the instruction, the enlighten• nient, and the civilization of those great populations which are now subject to our rule. (Cheers.) We have letele witnessed in India scenes of Lartar.ty which would make any man shudder, but are we wholly irre sponsible for those scenes ? If, during the two centuries for which we have exercised power in India, we had used that power to enlighten and civilise the people, do you think their nature would not, in some measure at least, have been changed, and that the atrocious crimes which they have committed would not have been as re pugnant to their feelings as they were to those of the People of this country We ought to remember that we have a great duty to fulfil in India, and I an sure that t hat duty w ill b e b eat di sc h arge d if we commit its per it'erTleee to Cee hands of men who will be accountable Parliament far their conduct, • d who will feel them blees ,_ un _ t .l will add With e p ei ro u p a o in ae t , the public of this country, step a ti na Co ` n P , e i n th the arringements which they may make. I it will increase ,,re t s h t e wineauaernecuaeub_out,t to Parliament should adopt the measure withat while on the one hand it epnogwtheroof f ou th r is po c s o i u t o io t n ry i , n a India,nd render o while u r able enable us mere firm e_u and s n e d c e u d r e,it that will we on shouldthe otherdi,,e discharge d e in iree ty liee wg,reiatt was id i e ian n r ileyemeoprf , o v r a m s t t h r o .a s n e sf d e u rr ti cwointrol. I beg for leave to bring in a for transferred the e wt b oh e i t oc t uh e r r , I government orlndia. (Loud cheers.) Mr. T. BNItING, in moving ~iiat an amendment, that it was toleziiat house th e government of Innodt everyonei o a x , p s e a d id ielt a a t t , resen t in use and th e country must concur i n th e no b le lord's remark, object they all had i n v i ew was the welfare that th e great faarre hear).of I n di a an .I our fellow-subjects in th a t country-- he was in consequence of his b e li ev i ng that tlie bill and it the noble lord at the present mom en t would not °f con duce to that object that he proposed th e above amendment. It was unnecessary for him to follow the noble lord through his description of the rise of the East India Company, nor into a discussion of the compa rative merits of the elective body of proprietors nor cadet ships, other than to aid that if the noble lord had carefully NA the evidence taken in 1553, he would net haTe charged of cadetships. The appeal he made to the house wa s thi s all canvassing directors with obtaining votes by promises —to say, aye or no; was this the right moment to make change. The noble lord had said he p ro p ose d e India, but would any one asser t totth ra heatpatrko7 no s c o ha e n d g c e ha t n h g e system in this country would not also have the effect of changing the government iu India. The constitution of one reacted on the other, and when they deprived a body of men (two-thirds of whom were elected by an independent constituency) of their administrative functions, and placed them in the hands of eight Crown nominees, the effect must be to create a great change in the government in India. The noble lord commenced by com plimenting the East India Company, and afterwards said their government was a cumbrous machine, which he was not aware till au emergency arose needed so great a change. The noble lord had, however, failed to state its defects, and, if they existed Government was to blame for them. He denied that the proposed change would be so beneficial as the noble lord considered, and he asked the noble lord to show in any of Sir Colin Campbell's despatches that he had found the Queen's name of such power and influence as the noble lord considered it would be in India. Ho doubted if the noble lord would get the support of Lord Canning, or any man who had been in India to this mea sure. The hon. gentleman remarked that the noble lord had wisely abstained from noticing the Calcutta memorial ; and with regard to the system of checks and counter-checks complained of by the noble lord, he said he considered they were highly beneficial for the government of India. The proposed change was looked to with great apprehension by the people of India under existing circumstances. Would the Hindoos not be in some manner influenced by tkis change of Government? Let this change take place, and the Hindoos would say that the change of Government would involve a change in the privileges which the native population had hitherto enjoyed. We were now in the midst of a gigantic mutiny, but a greater task than that of suppression hay before the Government, and that was the task of conciliation. (Hear.) Was the Parliament of England in a position to say what was required for the tranquillisati mof India ? Not a c,n-ub cJwf , ,c tin this respect had fallen from the noble lord, who seemed to rely solely on the magical influence of the Queen's name. He denied that that house was qualified in point of informa tion to decide what the precise measure for India ought to be. He hardly met a man who did not ask him where ho could learn something about Indian affairs—(hear)—and with the froth complications which had arisen out of the mutiny it was most unwise to precipitate a measure in volving radical change. Tho noble lord did not frame the measure on any alleged shortcomings on the part of the present Government. The noble lord lead no special round for the measures nor did he say that the Indian Government had disappointed reasonable expectations. All the noble lord asserted was that the machinery was " cum brous." (Hear.) The noble lord sneeringly stated that he did not expect opposition from that (the opposition) side of the house. The noble lord might better have uttered that taunt to his supporters, who had made themselves re sponsible for the measure of 1853. (Hear.) What had oceurred since that time to justify the impugning of that measure ? (Hear.) If, when that measure was passed, he had known that the then formed Government was to be changed in four years, he should have said, " Pass such a measure in 1853, when there is tranquillity in India." A measure which might have been prudent to pass then it may be madness to propose at this moment. A committee had sat on the affairs of India, but not one of its members, he believed, had asserted that the existing machinery of the Indian Government was a cumbrous machinery. (Hear.) The President of the Board of Control would no doubt state in what respect his benevolent suggestions had been followed or rejected. (Hear.) The present First Lord o f the Admiralty was a member of that committee, as was the present Secretary for the Colonies. The First Lord would no doubt state in his place to what extent be thought the act of 1833 and that of 1853 had been successful or not. The Secretary of the Colonies had, in a recent speech, said that our colonies wore well governed, because they had been left to themselves. Was the right hon. gentleman pre pared to acid the same language with respect to the go vernment of India ? The proposal of the Government was in fact a revival of a system which had proved unfortunate in our colonies, where patronage and domination had led to the most disastrous results. (Hear, hear). The noble lord said tha . party and political feeling was not rife in India, but he (Hr. Baring) much feared that the state of things, in which the late Lord Hardinge said that he knew a man's politics in India only by accident, had passed away. (Hear, hear.) He repeated his opinion that the change in the name of the Government would be con sidered to be without meaning in India. There was a growing feeling out of doors in this country that there was to be an attempt to Christianise the native population. For his own part, ho desired that the conversion should be tho result of conviction, and not of any forced measures on the part of the Government, (Hear, hear.) Groat progress had been made in India both with respect to in ternal improvement and in the spread of education, and it , was clear that the "delay" of which the noble lord spoke had not checked these stales. A member of the late Go vernment had stated in the House of Lords that the Government of India was an anomaly. Bat the circum stances attending our possession of this great dependency were altogether exceptional, and we had no precedent to guide us. (Hear. hear). The noble lord said that public opinion was the safeguard required ; but he (Mr. Baring) asked whether the public opinion of England was at this moment rips for taking the initiative. (Hear, hear)? He feared that at this moment the public feeling of England was heated with regard to India. (Hear, hear). The pro posed council would no doubt be composed of intelligent men, but it was absurd to say that they would be inde pendent. (Hear, hear). He did not know who the first eight names were to be; but in Mr. Fox's bill there was at least the semblance of deference to some other authority than the Government. (Hear). Before they put down a Goverment it was their duty to put down a mutiny, and ho implored the house to pause before it asked for the de struction of one Government in the absence of proper in formation. His hen. relative, the member for Portsmouth, had recently said that the East India Company would shortly be matter of history. Fortunately, the pages of that history were still open, and he trusted that when they were read it would be admitted that although faults might be detected, there had been unexampled success accom plished by the spirit of commercial enterprise and by the indomitable courage of the European soldier. (Hear.) In reading that page of history, they would find that great statesmen had wisely governed that country. Ho hoped, moreover, that it would not be found in that history that British Goe - erainent and a British House of Commons had, in the midst of a gigantic mutiny, converted the dominion of the Queen into the shuttlecock of party. (Cheers.) The hon. member concluded by moving an amendment, that it is not at present expedient to legislate for the government of India. The SPEAKER having put the question, Sir E. PERRY said, that having laid on the table a motion involving the same objects as the present bill, he trusted ho might offer some observations in reply to the hon. member for Huntingdon. Although he was desir ous for the introduction of such a measure as this in 1853, he nevertheless thought that the time chosen by the noble lord for his proposed law was vary well chosen. He said that the company's Government had erased to receive that respect from the inhabitanteof India which it had formerly , possessed, and that a desire for a change was almost uni versal there. That government was condemned by the public as an effete, useless, and cumbrous machine. Pro bably no government had acted with purer intentions ; but his complaint was, that their practice was not in accord ance with their intentions. The system of education in India owed its origin to Parliamentary influence. He re collected when he had the honour of being elected presi dent of the board of education in the presidency of Bom bay, he received one of the ablest and roost luminous state papers drawn up by Mr. James Mill on the subject. That state paper was looked upon as the magna charta of Indian education. It was not the business of those who supported the present bill to bring any charges against the Court of Directors. His objections to the present system applied both to the Court of Directors and the Board of Control. He had no doubt that there were faults on both sides; and that in their joint action they male an exceedingly bad system. The hon. member for Huntingdon badpronounced a great eulogium upon the government of the East India Company. But previous to 1784 allioaries--Mr. Pitt, and Mr•. Fox—were agreed that it was venal, corrupt, oppres sive, false, and treacherous in its relations to the native states. It is clear from the language of Mr. Pitt when ho introduced the bill which was the foundation of the present system, that he contemplated that eventual transfer of the government of India to the Ministers of the Crown which was now, 83 years afterwards to be carried out by the bill of the noble lord. Mr. Pitt's act did not give the Crown all the power over the government of India that was desirable, and various acts had been passed to give them that power. The course of legislation had left the Court of Directors a mere c«put mortuum, and ho should, therefore, strenuously support a measure which, while it would not give the Government more power or patronage than they now possessed, would impose upon them a complete responsi bility to parliamentary control. Up to the present time we had noeknown who was respes3ible for the Affghan war. Such a state of things was most unsatisfactory. We should know who was responsible for every such event, either in India or the colonies ; and that would he secured by this bill. His hon. friend objected to the abolition of the secret committee. But they were merely the instruments of the President of the Board of Control, who could secretly and orders to India through their medium without their nature being known either to the Court of Directors or to Parlia ment. But according to the bill of the noble lord every order issued by the President of the Council for India would be laid before Parliament within a month after it was issued, and would be liable to be canvassed and discussed. Notwithstanding the inferiority of Ceylon to Hindostan in soil and climate, and in the races by which it was inhabited. the progress of that isla,ud,which is under Crown government, contrasted in every respect most favourably with that made ' in India under the government of the company. The evils which had marked our colonial government could not appear in India unless that house neglected its duties. Whyhad there been an absence of corruption and jobbery in the adminis tration of the Indian patronage? Because, under acts of Parliament, the patron age in India was placed in the hands of the local government in India, who were obliged to con fer appointments upon those who had served a certain time in India and had certain qualifications. He cer tainly did not think that at a time when the administra tion of patronage was daily becoming more and more pure Parliament was likely to relax those salutary provisions. There was one reason why he thought the present time peculiarly suitable for legislation. He could not see with out the gravest apprehension the antagonistic and turbu lent spirit displayed by the English public and the English press in India towards the natives. He desired that Indiaa subjects should be discussed in England, that it might be seen that the opinions of the people of this country coin cided with the generous and most politic policy of Lord Canning, who had steadfastly refused to make any dis tinction between a native and an Englishman so long as each remained a loyal subject. He should support the measure of the noble lord, because he believed that i s would promote the civilisation and the improvement of India, and ultimately its admission into the Christian fold. (Hear, bear.) Mr. M. MI LNES thought it was not the proper time to iutro duce a measure of this description in the midst of the present crisis in India. He, at all events, who had in 1853 done all he could to perpetuate the Government of the Gast India Company, could not support the measure of his noble friend, except the strongest case in its favour were made out. Now, he could imagine that such a case might possibly have been presented. It might have been shown that at the late crisis the action of the double Government c i hadthelt i et. ; ue e en e od nvszesrroon, impededm shown tnht that dangerous to the permanence of the English Government. Hetinitb. power in India that it was necoss try to abolish it. But it had not been shown by the noble lord that the success of in 1813 supported called upon to aba h y p e u the t in ti u n d t g i o . inste d te e tio d n ou ,• dangerous to obliteratetk" time-Lonoured • calmness on the short • because they were rather l part of the Government. \ nu s yb l ol double had dt Government.hb e e en caused a mutiny u s 3 had Norabd y beent hadhat , tl t l , l not see, therefore, how those who it.b a le nd G h o e ve t r h u: n e fo n r t e co lo il k d e n d ow wi b th e It always seemed to him most in a marked and obvious manner a want i of good intentions on the longs of the East India Company, I man nature than to any due to the imperfections of hu a d not think that the free• Tfll SUN, LONDON, SATURDAS EVIENING, FEBRUARY Ig, 1g1;18. dom of England afforded any guarantee for the just govern ment of India. As far as he understood, the Council of Eight, who wore to assist the Indian Minister, were simply to have the power of recording their dissent. That, however, would not be done in a manner that would be brought before Parliament, much less would they have the check upon him which was at present supplied by the pre sence in that house of directors of the East India Company, who could state their Views, in opposition to those of the President of the Board of Control. Of such a council he could not think that any man conversant with India, much less any director of the East India Company, would consent to become a member. Upon the future distribution of pa tronage under this measure, he confessed he could not but look with alarm, for it was, he thought, clear that when the President and his councillors all sat in one room, and were in constant communication, its distribution would be arranged in accordance with the convenience of the Minis ter of the day. They had seen the fate of colonies which came in contact with the party struggles in that house. He recollected the disaffections in Canada and Ceylon. In both cases great injustice was committed, and the interests of the parties concerned were continually subordinated to the interests of parties in that house. By parliamentary dis cussion they brought about an almost total dissolution of that government of Ceylon which is now so highly lauded. Ho confessed this seemed to him an awful peril to which wo are now about to expose the destiny of 150 millions of pens plc. No reason had been assigned by the noble lord through. out his speech for the choice of this particular time for the introduction of this measure. Could it be the East In ha Company were unpopular with the people, and that it was thought that it would be advantageous to the Government to abolish that body ? He did not, however, believe that the people of England did feel any hostility to the East India Company. The Government of India had been the go vernmeat of India by the middle classes. It had been free from party spirit, and was the only government in the world under which it is admitted that in the distribution of patronage no preference was given except to merit. He did not think that that patronage would in future be dis tributed with the freedom from favouritism which had hitherto been the case. Fur hie own part he had not the game faith as some of his hon. friends in the competitive system, which it was said was to furnish a safeguard against all abuses. The best boys did not always turn out the best men ; and at this moment, when the servants of the East India Company, both civil and military, had shown them selves men of whom wo could not but be proud—when the achievements in India had obliterated the remembrance of the failures in the Government war in the Crimea—at this moment to say to such men as those to whom he had referred, that the Government they were administering was an unworthy Government, did seem to him most un grateful conduct on the part of a great nation. Mr. W. VA.NSITTART could not believe that the House of Commons would refuse to grant the reasonable prayer of the East India Cempany, and appoint a com mittee to inquire jute the conduct and constitution of the government. He trusted, too, that before any alteration was made in the existing government full inquiry would bo made into the cause of the present mutiny, as he con ceived that it would be found that groat blame would be attached to the Government at home for having kept the Company so short of European troops. The hon. member proceeded to refer to the paucity of troops at the time of the mutiny, and the total absence of troops at most of the principal cities in the Bengal Presidency. Before the an nexation of Oude there were three regiments of Europeans more than there were after the annexation of that country, while in Oude itself, with 216 strongly fortified felts, there was but ono regiment of Earopeau troops. It was the most impolitic thing to' pursue this system of annexation with out a corresponding increase of military force to maintain the provinces so annexed in a state of proper organisation. The hon. member paid an eloquent and merited eulogy to the leravery and valour of the small detachments of European troops who had done so much to put down the present mutiny. He could not help think ing that the present system of the double government might be simplified, but felt, at the same time, that the system had its advantages, not the least of which check up on an i gnoran t P res id en t o f th e Control. (He ar .) T he presen t was, i n hi s op it nu, d h ae of salutary most unsuitable time f or e ff ec ti ng changes in the B w io a oa s r t Government of India, and believing that such alterations would at the present time be attended with risk and danger to that empire, he felt bound to oppose the intro duction of the bill. (Hear, hear.) Mr. AYRTON said that many years ago, having gone to India prejudiced in favour of the East India Cempany, he had nevertheless, after a residence there of some time, come to the conviction that government, in the name of the company, was not only a proceeding highly inexpe dient bat a thing almost impossible to b 3 continued. Dar ing the last session of Parliament, upon the first oppor tunity he could obtain, and before the events which they now deplored had broken out, he took occasion to say that the substitution of the Government of the Crown for that of the East India Company was absolutely necessary for the maintenance of the loyalty of the natives of India. He regarded the continuance of the government of the Com pany as incompatible with the least knowledge of political ideas on the part of the natives of India. It was impos sible to conceive anything ao degrading, so dishonourable to a people as to be turned over to the remnant of a joint• stock company to be managed. He admitted that it was no longer a trading company, but still it was the remnant of one. He was glad to find the hand of no director was attached to the petition which they had pros eited, and that it came to the house like so many acts of the Com pany, under the common seal, without any personal voucher of individual responsibility. That petition bad shadowed forth to the people of this country a fact which, if it were accepted, would be so strong in favour of the Company, but which was so at variance with the truth that he thought it would be an injustice to the question if the representations of the Court of Directors, or rather the East India Company, were allowed to go forth without some re mark. The Company had presumed to say that they had acquired the government of India and their power for India entirely by their own means, without any assistance what ever from the British Crown, without any assistance from the people of this country. But how could they make such an assertion when the three presidencies had been acquired by them, or rather held by them, as re garded two of them, namely, Ma iras and Bombay, by a grant from the Crown, and as to the other, namely, Cal cutta, by the joint action of their own and her Majesty's troop , . Such were the foundations of their territorial possessions. Ho could not forget that, in 135 ;, when they were told an end must be pat to this anomalous state of things, the Government of India was insol vent, and that it was maintained by the profits they received from the monopoly which they enjoyed at the ex pense of the people of this country. Iu order to alarm the Government of that day they stated that the value of that monopoly, from the year 1813 to 1833, was an aggregate sum of 23 millions, which had been applied by th em i n a id of their government. But how was that mo ne y o bt a i ne d ? as fully and completely as if , year by rear,oTfhtalitissucmouwatarsyprovided, as Mr. Gr an t s t ated, by the people it had been voted by Parliament. It was obtained by a monopoly which raised the price of a commodity (a neces sary of life) at the expense of every individual in this country. Did it then become the East India Company to say that this country had cont-ibuted nothing to the ad vancement of India ? Was it nothing that the blockade between France and India was maintained by the English navy and English valour, and that thus the French were prevented from getting to India ? lii tho face of these facts the Company had the arrogance to tell the people of this country, or rather the Parliament, that while under the PaDnY t o i nqu i re what not the Com pany Imperial Government this country was l os i ng Amer i ca, the America o m ? they by their unaided efforts were extendin g our d om i n i ons i w n a t s h t e he E c a a st u . se of our ou it r becomelosing go to the Government and say th at they were insolvent, and asked, as a means of extricating them selves from this position , that they mi g ht b e a l lowed to send their tea to America, for it was th e i r tea, and the destruction of it, which first produced th e American war; and it did nut become th e E as t I nd i a D Company, therefore, to take credit to themselves for the maintenance of empire iu India, while, at the same time, America was being lost to this country. It has been said also that they had done great things in develop ing our trade in India. Why, whatever had been done in India within the present century had been done in spite of the Cempany an I against their most violent remonstrances. No, let the Court of Directors still inquire into the past— let them rely as their safest government upon the present. He for one thought it was much to bo regretted that former governments had not felt themselves strong enough to face the powerful influence of the Company • , he was glad, how ever, to find that year by year the Court of Directors had been falling so low in public opinion that the Government were now able, in a comprehensive manner, to deal with an anomaly which had been a disgrace to the country from the first hour of its existence. But it was alleged the present was not the time for establishing the proposed change in the form of government of India. His opinion, on the con trary, was that every hour in which the change was post poeed was pregnant with the greatest misfortunes to the empire. So far from the insurrection being a cause for de lay, it was precisely a cause why the Government of the country should be made more efficient in its action. It was precisely now that the deficiencies of the existing system were most felt. The greatest value would be attached to the transference of authority from the Court of Directors to the Crown. The princes of India would hereafter feel themselves treated with dignity, and he could say himself that in India the greatest weight was attached to oven the shadow of things. Why, natives regarded the right of ap peal to the Queen in Council as a great political right. Indeed, as wag observed by the noble lord, the very inti mation that the intermediate authority of the company had ceased to exist, would be tantamount to an army of Europeans in the heart of tho country ; that was to say, supposing the change was carried out with sagacity and intelligence. But, undoubtedly, if any attempt was made to undervalue the change by those who would be inclined to act upon the ancient traditions of the Company, the proposal of the Government would not end iu much. With reference to the future administration of the patron age of Lillie, he must say he did not think the Court of Directors were entitled to any high consideration upon that ques tion. Notwithstanding the immense amount of patronage at their disposal, the Court of Directors, eating as a body, hail never appropriated a single cadetship for public purposes. He would not canvass the subject of the purity of Indian appointments. He hoped that the market price of the Company's appointments was no longer known in the City of London, and that they were now purely given. But he knew enough of past transactions, ho hal seen enough of the banking accounts of East India directors, to be able to say that they had better net challenge too strict an inquiry into the past. Then he could not conceive any thing more absurd than the present system of government. Tleey load the right hon. gentleman the President of the Beard of Coutrul at the head of the Government ; and they had a body of gentlemen sitting in Leadenhall-street. The right hon. gentleman was regarded as responsible for what was done, but he had not by law the power of com municating with these gentlemen. What was the object of a council except that he who was responsible should be at liberty to canvass the opinion of ovary individual in the council ? But all that the right hon. gentleman could get by law from the Judie House was a resolution of a court of directors distilled to him through the medium of the cheirmar. The chairman might himself be personally op pone 1 to the opinions which he had to express, and might have to argue in favour of a resolution of the court in opposition to his own opinions. Ho be!ieved that such a thing had actually occurred. What could they think of a system in which a council was required to assist in the administration which had no communication with the sponsible Minister, and which was so managed that there could be no responsibility on any individual director, and so that the result only of their deliberations was known, and that result perhaps arrived at only by a majority of one ! He did not think so highly of tho perfection of hninan nature as to believe in the official capacity of any man who acted in a crowd, who acted behind a screen, and who could never be responsible. Could the house hesitate to support the Government in putting an end to such a system ? He was glad to find that year by year the Court of Directors had fallen in public ul iuion, and had new fallen so low that the Govern ment had at last determined to put an end to the anomaly, The noble lord had right Is - tv,arded that they ought to be put down for ever. But the Court of Directors had sounded the alarm, and had sail that the present was not the time for a change. But ho said that now was the proper time, and that every hour of delay was pregnant with misfortune to the empire. So long as what had been called the mutiny, but what be called the insurrection, continued, the very cause existed why they should put an end to the present system at once. The Minister ought to bo able to take daily and hourly counsel on this grave sub ject. Then he fully agreed with those who said that it would have a great influence on the natives to have the govern ment directly under the Crown. The native princes would feel exalted when they had the dignity of making treaties, not with a joint-stock company, but with the Sovereign of England. He knew, for example, that natives looked to au appeal to the Queen in Council, not as a mere trial of a legal question in a court of justice, but rather as a proceed big which brought them directly under the surveillan ce of the Crown. Again, lately they had seen a prince come over to this country and offer his little girl to the Queen to be made a Christian, as the greatest offerin g he could make to his Sovereign. The declaration that this intermediate power—the Company—which stood between the natives of India and the Crown, had ceased to exist would be received with delight in that country. He had intended to call at tention to a document put into the hands of members in conjunction with the petition, but would not do so now, because it would not be convenient to enter into details. He would be prepared to discuss any question of detail, and to show that the men who could write such a docu ment, whatever might be their ability, were not fit to be entrusted with the administration of the government of India unless they werebrought under the direct moral infi ence of the people and Parliament of thie country. The ryots of India were assessed to the last farthing. (Oh.) Well, of course ho did not mesa to say their last farthing liter ally : but, having left the cultivator just enough for main tenance, everything else was taken from him whi c h con stituted property in this kingdom. The Punjaub was taxed only to the extent of one-fifth, but what was the measure of taxation upon the rust of India ? Why, he be lieved in some parts of India it was as much as two-fifths, whilst in olisrs it was ev , n r.s much as tier ,e-fifrhs of the gross receipts of the land. And the consequence of the low taxation of the Punjaub was no doubt its tranquillity. The expense of the government of the Punjaub exceeded its revenue, and nearly all the expenditure was defrayed out of the revenues of the rest of India. He asserted the cultivators of the soil had been in some instances reduced to the most dreadful suffering and distress. Ho had been informed that they had been even reduced to eat the soil which they tilled, from starvation. (Laughter.) He did not mean to say this was a normal state of existence, but ho believed very great suffering had occurred, and that many of the people of India had died of famine. He could not give the bill his unqualified adherence in all its details, but supported the general principles of the measure. Ho would, for instance, be sorry to accept the arrangement made for the patronage of India. He must say he di 1 not think the Court of Directors entitled to any great consideration ; for though they had at their disposal some 400 cadetship yearly—(no, no)—yes, but such had certainly been the case in former years, sometimes more than 400, sometimes less ; yet in the distribution of that patronage they had never, as a body, appropriated a single cadetship in the discharge of a public duty, or on the ground of public ser vice. (Oh, oh, and hear.) Yes, he re-asserted his former observation and defied contradiction, speaking of the di rectors as a public body. It was well known how the widows of officers who had died in the service canvassed directors from house to house, and were not always suc cessful even in seeing the great man, far less so in the ob ject of their solicitation. He wished, instead of the bill giving patronage to the Council in the manner it did, it laid down how much should be given to the Indian army, and how much to the Council. There were other details into which he would not now enter. Generally speaking, he gave his cordial assent to the measure of Government, and believed it would bo found equally conducive as for mer measures which Parliament had passed to the welfare of the people of India, and that by means of it the British rule in that country would enter into a now career of use fulness. (Hear.) Sir J. ELPHINSTONE intended to oppose the bill upon two grounds; first, because the proposed council for India must in the end become the political partisans of the Go vernment of the day; and, secondly, for the much stronger reason that the present was not the time for the intro duction of such a measure. Ho happened to have some knowledge of Ceylon, end he could inform the hence that while the East India Company wore considering the desi rability of removing import duties, the Government in Ceylon were imposing a duty of 24 per cent. The moment the Government took India into their own hands, from that moment India would deteriorate. The noble lord had talked about our having governed India for 200 years, sleet we had acquired no loss than three-fifths of India since the year 181 a. He felt assured that the present bill could not be adopted in its present shape. He trusted that the men who had so ably governed India would have a fair hearing on the second reading of the bill. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER geld that the hon. member who moved the amendment to the bill laid much stress upon the petition so ably drawn up by the East India Company, and referred to the Company as having laid the foundation of the annexation of the Indian territory to the British dominions. Ho agreed with the hon. gentleman who last addressed the house that the petition recited a great deal that was creditable to the Com pany, but a public document of that kind ought not to be merely good in composition, and eloquent, .but it ought to be based upon fact, and close and cogent reason. There were two assumptions which wore put forward in that document. One of them, that this country owed to the East India Company the vast territory of India ; and the other assumption, that the East India Company's Government was the best Government that the world ever experienced. Now, allow him to examine how far those two assumptions could be established. !With regard to the assertion that this country was indebted to the East India Government for the territory of India, he would stop to inquire how far that was made out. and whether India, bad all the value attributed to it. The East India Com pany were bound to show, if they could, that this country was benefited by the acquisition of the East India terri tory. Ho fully admitted that the Government of the East India Company had been just, and he was not detracting from the policy of maintaining the Indian empire ; but he would say that those persons who said that this country was under a deep debt to the East India Company wero bound to show that it was of enormous advantage to this country, He wholly disputed the doctrine that it was owing to the policy of the East India Company that India was annexed. Every person who was acquainted with is story would conceive with him that it had been the policy of the directors in this country that all wars and territo rial annexations in India should be avoided. That was a policy of the East India directors. When they were a mere trading company they held that policy ; and it was by the energyof such men asClive, and the rapacity of such mm we Warren Hastings that their Indian empire was carried. The Indian Government and the management of affairs in India, were placed in the hands of the company's servants, and these servants were insubordinate, mutinous, rapa cious, and unjust. They were called upon to make remit tances home by the directors, and what was the way they did it ? By plundering the people ? (Hear, hear.) The directors always sail—be just, avoid war, avoid annexa tion— but don't forget to send us money home. (Laughter.) i:y the voyage by the Cape of Good Hope, four or five mouths or more were occupied in the passage from Eng land, and the opportunity for insubordination and rapa city was favourable to the company's own servants. He maintained that the annexations of territory were made in the face of the orders against such a proceeding, issued by the directors not to annex territory. Parties who went out formerly as governor-generals returned abounding in wealth. Clive and Warren Hastings acted upon that policy. One p ,rty was made the subject of Parliamentary attacks of a very severe kind, which were persevered in earnestly until he put an end to his own life. Those were some of the effects of the founder of their Indian empire, as he was called. Well, then, lot them take Warren Hastings. They knew the rapacity for which he was dis tinguished. They knew that this house voted that he be recalled. They knew that the company and directors sent for him, and that the Secretary of State sent orders for his return home, which he disobeyed. They knew that when a few years afterwards, he returned, he was made the sub ject of an impeachment, charging him with a degree of ra pacity that bad never been surpassed. Not one great man of the day, not even Mr. Burke nor Mr. Foes, ventured to throw his shield over him. By common consent he was condemned. (Hear.) Therefore it was quite a mistake to say that by the policy of the Indian directors the terri tory of India cline to the Crown of this country. The annexation of India carne into the hands of this country by the insubordination and mutinous conduct of the ser vants of the East India Company. That was the stato of things by which the government of India passed out of the hands of the company in 1751, and a series of governors wore appointed under the political influence of the execu tive Government. Now, the Governor-General of whom it might be said that laths became really annexed to this country was Lord Wellesley. He went out to India. and, by the system which he introduced, ho succeeded in ren dering India of more value to this country than it ever was before. By that system the accession of territory became great and complete, and the Indian army and all great Indian political interests were brought under the rule of the sovereignty of this country. He concurred in the policy of the East India Directors at borne, and if their policy had been carried out the country would not now be in the unfortunate condition which was so much to be deplored. He said that in fairness, but he felt that it was to the good qualities which distinguished Englishmen wherever they were placed that they owed their Indian empire. It was by the subsequent policy of their Gover nor-Generals that their territorial accessions in India were to be attributed. Ho disputed entirely that portion of the petition which said that they owed their Indian empire to the policy of the East India Company. He now came to another point in the petition, for which credit was taken. The petitioners say, " they feel assured that the more attentively their government of India is considered, the more light would be thrown upon India, and the more evident would become the fairness of the manner in which the company administered the govern ment." Now, looking at that, he thought the character' which the East India Company bestowed upon themselves was not very modest. The East India Company was said to have originated the power of this country in India ; but the power in India was consolidated in the reign of William 111., and it was not until the battle of Plassy that the company could be said to have any power in that country, when they carried Douinier. It was after that that the Government of India began to make claims upon thorn for a share in the territorial accession; and the company proposed a compromise with the Government, offering to pty them a sum of money instead of that which was proposed by Lord Cave—that the Crown should take possession of those territorial accessions. That was not acted upon by the Government, :mud the compromise was entered into for the payment of the sum of money. That state of things continued for a few years, until until the abuses attracted the notice of England, 1 the Parliament, and the first attempt of i o rBr m 3h e ) a a n n ya Regulatinge b t e was e a il t o mA f s o ec r dt c . themselves Lordmh a s e l a v b e u ; s u e North,spoo ifiwhich G Easto v v A e attention nacalled a t f C l e in wo ell, e that Parliamentary control we- dissensionrormnistehowcio,uhntep. council www w hin s :tm, t vo o esuvi o t. e ae f . u s niataweli endeavour oe l ifi T at t b r i o e tie ,: m c e ; t e:: " l ne t n eg r b wt : r s a t on\ h o v, r e c i e t a 7ah l c 7te : g 3 : ti ti ° l,. I n v t, ,t e c t I,l;iti government te m s na v r eoes e e ,t,f r n n e ol t tint fi lh ' ec l i v i ioo l m e l d ff , Several duels took place, and the_ a c si o o m ia p roi,ned, and the supreme court was defeated, f a i 0 t c o o c r o m f n sl c o d t complete t failure.with the r - Parliamentary given to ins rect act of 1783, when there was a power I Al ln‘eithat correspondence l c ia n i i n n e p n a t n , y fo in r fi , rst time, a s control n;ro.ot India. In the few years that fol mblitYvtilisere was power also taken by the found s ufficient, but increased powers wore taken, the result of which was Mr. Pitt's act of 1784. But oven that was not found satisfactory, and committees of that house were appointed and long reports presented to Parliament from time to time, which might be found in four folio volumes—(a laugh) —compared with which their modern blue books were Puny I , o d uc ti ou , , After that, seventeen reports of committees were successively presented to Parliament. That was the Parliamentary history of that time. In 1784 Mr. Burke described the Parliamentary result of these inquiries to this effect, and it showed how far the character which the company gave of its administr a tion w a s t rue . Mr. Burke's resolution in 1781 was to this effect, that the East India Company was found totally corrupted and per verted from the purposes of its institution, whether of war or of peace. All their treaties had only given cause of breaches of faith, and that at home the servants of the company had obtained by nefarious practices the mastery of the body by which they ought to have been governed. When this was discovered, certain alterations were made, but the company refused to support them, and they sanc tioned the scenes of robbery and plunder which had been brought out in evidence before the committees of that time. That was a faithful picture of those times, and the senti ment that had got abroad in th ese ti mes o f gratitude and devotion to the company was totally unknown. The evi dence before those committees showed that no civilised company on the face of the earth was more rapacious and corrupt than the East India Company, from the year 1758 to the year 1781. Then came the period when it was placed under Parliamentary control. Before that it was a mere trading concern, and open to the charges to which he had alluded, and which were damnatory of the East India Company as a political body, and he confessed he could not reed without surprise the character which the East India Company had given of themselves, founded as it was since the company had been planed under the Board of Control and the Governor-General of India, and subjected to pub lic opinion the control of Parliament. All that could be said in favour of the company dated from 1784. It was by confounding the acts of two periods, before and after Par liamentary control, that the company was enabled to take to themselves this character. Then, lot them follow their Parliamentary history from 1784. Upon looking at it, it would be found that Mr. Burke and Mr. Pitt very nearly annihilated the company at that time. Tho bill with that object passed the House of Commons, and was thrown out in the House of Lords, on ace cunt of the alarm of the King, who thought it was intended to invest his Ministers with dictatorial powers. But Mr. Pitt, after throwing out the Government of Mr. Fox, introduced another bill, the effect of which was to institute the Board of Con trol, the establishment of which totally altered the character of the company, which up to that time was a trading and sovereign power. The effect of that measure was to place the company in a purely subordinate situation, and from that time the company was placed completely under that department of Govern ment. In 1793 Mr. Dundee, then President of the Board of Control, brought in another bill, the effect of which was to bring to complete perfection the system of double go vernment. That originated in 1781. That Minister re newed the charter for 30 years, and after the expiration of that period the Government of the day determined to abo lish the monopoly of the East India trade, and that was effected in 1813. That, in fact, was the first great stone struck out of the edifice of the East India Company. That he thought would not have been done if Parliament bad been of opinion that a boundless debt of gratitude was due to the East India Company. But they retained the mono poly of the China trade for 20 years longer. At last Go vernment came to the conclusion that the whole of the trading powers of the company should be abolished, and that they should bo prohibited from trading with India and with China, but that the sovereign and governing powers should be priserved. That was in 1833. They then lost altogether their peculiar character of traders. These changes resulted in a constant diminution of the power of the co :Tally. Again, in 1833, when the question was re opened, nothing seas said of the sentimental view of the The whole of the trade of China and India was thrown open, and the company then obtained a renewed lease of 20 years, ending in 1853, during which the com pany was the mere ghost of the former company. Then came another renewal of the charter in 1853. There were circumstances in operation at that time favourable to the company. The previous twenty years had been tranquil, and there was an improved spirit, in consequence of the vigilance of Parliament ; but, even under these favour able circumstances, Parliament did not renew the charter without a further diminution of power. One-third of the directors were to be the nominees of the Crown, and no further change was then insisted upon, the principle being that a joint-stock company having a common fund to administer should allow those who had an interest in it a voice in its management. It was only reasonable that those who had an interest in the fund should have some control over its management. The constituency who elected the present Court of Directors was a mere extended body, having no sort of connection with the affairs and interests of India. It was nothing more than the spectre of the original body, who carried on trade with India and China. The fallacy which pervaded the petition of the East India Company was speaking of that company as if it wore a body one and endurable--as if it wore unchanged in character and functions, while there was as great a change as had taken place in the constitution between the Heptarohy and the reign of Queen Victoria: (Hear, hear, and laughter.) It was the merest and most transparent sophism—it was offering an insult to the understanding to attempt to palm upon this house arguments of that nature. The next question they had to consider was, whether the present state of things called upon the house to acquiesce in the independent cantina ince ef the East India Company. From the year 1793, and before that date, the East India Company had been renewed for periods of ten years, (Hear, hear.) In 1853 Parliament did not seem inclined to grant another 20 years' lease, and the manner in which the company was continued was, that its existence was prolonged until Parliament should otherwise determine. Now, practically, every law was in this form; even the Habeas Corpus Act itself exi tea only until Parliament otherwise enacted, and there was not a single privilege which was not held upon a similar understanding. There fore, the East India Company might he considered as if its term was to be renewed from time to time in perpetuity. That was practically the result, until Parliament should determine otherwise. Ho (the Chancellor of the Ezell?, quer) entirely concurred in the proposition which had been laid down by his noble friend, that there was no ground for implying any blame to the East India Com. pany as to the origin of the East India Company. He did not believe it was possible to show that any vigilance on the part of the East India Company could have guarded against the recurrence of these disasters, or that when that mutiny occurred, it would have been possible to sup pose that any measures would have been more proper or more effectual than those which had been adopted. But this he did say, that the present state of things ha] brought forcibly under the view of the Executive Govern ment—and he heartily shared in that conviction---the clumsiness, and inefficiency and defectiveness of the whole Government of India. It wan not in times of tranquillity that the stronger or weaker parts of a system of govern ment were detected. It was only when a stress of bad weather came about that one was able to try the firmness of the ship. He could not, therefore, understand the difficulty which hon. gentlemen felt in comprehending how institutions should be for a certain time stable, but that when a crisis occurred a Government should come forward and ask for a change in their institutions. He confessed he did not understand bow, when the Home Government was created expressly by the authority of Parliament, the East India Company should still be con sidered an independent power. They were the breath of the nostrils of Parliament ; they had no power but what Parliament conferre I upon them, which was circurn ecribed by innumerable restrictions and limitations. There was the Board of Control, and there was also the Court of Directors. These two bodies acted and re-acted upon each other in a manner which was accurately defined by Act of Parliament. There was nothing which Parliament might not at any moment remodel. Well, these authorities were embarrassed by needless delays ; they were subject to fre quent procrastinations; they divided r e sp ons ib i lity ; th e y threw obscurity upon the seat of power. (Hear, hear.) Whenever Parliament conferred power, it also required responsibility. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would venture to state the converse of the proposition, and maintain, that whenever Parliament exacted responsibility, it should also concentrate power. (Hear.) Why had Par liament so much difficulty in these questions ? Something went wrong; recourse was had to the President of the Board of Control. He said, " Oh, the matter has been referred to the Court of Directors, or to the Governor-General." They said the matter has been referred to the President of the India Board, ho cannot give a clear answer. (Laughter, and hear, hear.) They might perhaps say there was a dif ference of opinion between them. Then a discussion arose, and the opportunity for action was lost. The Parliament failed to grasp what it sought to hold, and without enter taining any unkind feeling against the hon. gentleman, the chairman, who had a seat in the house, or the vice-chair man of the board (Sir F. Currie), he must say that their disputes had not been of a satisfactory description, and ho begged to say what he did with all sincerity, but he could not conceive that it would bo more satisfactory to Parlia ment if they were able distinctly to fix upon the executive authority in this country the clearest responsibility of any act affecting the Indian Government. Upon these grounds he conceived that the present system might be abolished, and that our Parliamentary authority should be established in Indian affairs upon the ground laid down by the First Minister. The right hon. gentleman defended the proposed council from the charge made by the hon. member for Huntingdon, namely, that they would not be in the same independent position as the directors ; and he then pro ceeded to show that in making the changes explained by Lord Palmerston there would be no interference with the I existing patronage in India. If that course should be ob jected to it was a mattes which could be hereafter consi dered. Well, but then there remained the question of the cadetships. He thought that, looking at the provisions of the bill, it could not be said that it conferred any increased patronage on the Government. He could Rot coincide with the views of those who said that the Government would take away the power of the directors merely for the pur pose of having the distribution of patronage in its own hands. He believed that at present the practice of the Court of Directors was to divide the patronage among the individual members of the court, and by the proposal of the Government, if it wore agreed to, the moue bers of the new council would be, in like manner, e a _ trusted with the distribution of patronage in connection with the President of the Council. That was, in fact, the only change as to the distribution of patronage which this measure would e ff ec t. There would be, as he had stated, no change in the mode of appointing per sons to the civil service; the highest offices iu India would continue to be, as at present, in the hands of the Government, and the cadetships would be divided between the President of the Council and the members of that conncil, just as they were at present, among the members of the Court of Directors. It could not, therefore, be said that this measure made any very giest change in the present mode of distributing patronage ; but he could not conclude his observations on this subject without saying that he could not help de preeating the idea that the East India Company should be maintained merely for the purpose of ng distributi pa tronage in a particular f orm . H e should wish to sea all appointments in India dist! Hinted among persons who wished to exercise the power entrusted to them for the benefit of the people of India. (Rear, hear.) An i he confessed he could not hear without the deepest regret the patronage of Indi a t a lk ed of as a heritage of o le of England, evithout any re f erence to the benefit and people welfare of the people of India. Indeed, the distribution of that patronage ambng a certain section of the people of Eng land was talked of as a matter right ; while, of course, the , interests of the people of India were left entirely out of cousideralien. There had been many arguments urged against th e bill of a similar nature, but he could notbe lieve bat th a t th e house would test the question at issue onits own merits, and by looking to the groat object which all ought to have in view . - namely, as to how Indian go vernment might be best administered in future —and that they would not bo turned aside by the dilatory argu ments of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Baring) in support of his amendment. The hon. gentleman had shrunk from meeting the motion for leave to introduce the bill by a direct negative. What he asked the house to aflinn was, that the present was not an expedient time to make any alteration in the government of Ladle. Well, he could have understood the hon. gentle man if he had argued the question on its merits—if ho hail said that the present government of India was a good ono, and that it was meant to be coeval with the British consti tution. He could understand an argument like that, but t he could not understand a gentleman coming forward and 1 saying, " Here is a government upon which condemnation is proposed t o b e p asse d, an d w h at I as k o f Parliament i s to postpone its de c isi on on th e ques ti on submitted toit. " Why, all that had pissed in Parliament that night would be known th roug h ou t th e w h o l e wor l d. The hon. gentle- man did not say that the arguments against the existing system were not true; but he simply asked the house to postpone its decision. Well, he would ask whether even in the interest of the East India Company itself there could be a more inconvenient course than that they were asked to adopt ? Here was a bill brought forward by his noble friend at the head of the Government, and who had ably explained all its main features. The friends and advocates of the East India Company had not the courage to say that the arguments against the existing system were not true. They would not say that that Government should be maintained even for a few years to come. They would not defend any of its anomalies; but many said that this was not the time. Arguments of that sort could lead to no satisfactory result. (Hear, hear.) They did not place the company in a better or a more secure position—they did not contribute to the security or the strength of the Government in India—and he believed that the house would not consent upon such grounds to the amendment of the hon. gentleman the member for Huntingdon. In deed, apart from these reasons, it would be a most unusual course for the house to refuse permission to the Govern ment to lay a bill before it which had reference to one of the greatest questions of the day, and particularly when that bill might, if the Government had chosen, have been introduced in the House of Lords without asking the permission of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) Any n;1, 1 . bar of the Government might have laid the bill on the table of that house without asking the consent of Parlia ment : but the Government felt that on such a subject it was duo to the Legislature to proceed at every stage of his question with the fullest deliberation. That house had the privilege no doubt of refusing leave to introduce a bill if it thought proper, but he would remind hon. mem bers that it was a privilege which ought to be used with moderation, and ho hoped that up on th a t occas i on it would not be used to refuse to the Governmentpermission simply to lay upon the table of the house a bill affecting large and important interests. They did not ask the house at that stage to assent to the principle of that measni e; all that they wished was to lay it upon the table, in order that its principle and its provisions might be subsequently fully discussed and considered ; and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could not but believe that, looking at the great interests at stake, the house would permit a bill to be in traduced for improving the machinery by which the admi nistration of an immense empire was in future to be car ried on. (Hear, hear.) In fact, the principle of the mea sure, as explained by his noble friend, had been wholly untouched, if not completely misunderstood. His noble friend had said that if the Government did not believe that the bill would improve the Government bf India, they would not have introduced it. The Go v ernment further said that it left the whole of the iefe,rnal administration of India precisely where it was. T .Li did not make any al teration in the powers of the Governor-General, in the powers of the governors of presidencies, in the position of the civil servants in India, in finance administration, in collection of the revenue, or the administration of justice in the courts of law. In these respects the administration in India was left entirely unfettered. What his noble friend (Lord Palmerston) asked was simply to consolidate and concentrate the Government of India in this, and by means of that change to simplify and render mere effective the whole administration of India so far as such a change could effect that object. Such a change would in his belief, lea l'to a greater co ., centration of power in India, and would give a reality of strength to all the de partments of Government in that country, which could not fail to have the most beneficial effect, while as to the time at which the measure was introduced, he would merely say, that it was upon great emergencies that such measures were called for, and that this measure ought to be tried on its own merits. (Cheers.) Mr. MANGLES said he had intended to confine his obser vations to the point whether this was a proper time to bring forward such a measure ; but after listening to the very able speech of the right hon. gentleman, he could not help making a few observations on some parts of that speech which he confessed had surprised him. Ho was well aware of the great historical knowledge and attainments of the right hon. gentleman, and yet there were some statements in his speech so glaringly incorrect and f o widely different from the real facts, that he felt compelled to answer them. The right hon. gentleman had denied that at present India was of any direct advantage to this coun t ry. Now it was impossible for any on., who knew the facts to deny that England derived great and immediate advantages from its connection with India under the existing form of government. A very large sum, varying from three to five millions annually, was sent from India to this country, not as tribute, but in the payment of dividends on the stock of the company, in the payment of pensions to retired civil servants of the Indian Government, iu the payment of officers of the Indian army on half-way s and in addition large sums on account of the Queen's troops, and the transmission of stores. Probably, upon an average, not less than five millions yearly were sent from India for these purposes, and could it be said then that the present connection of Great Britain and India was of no immediate advantage ? The right honourable gentleman had denied that India had been conquered by the East India Company, and had challenged the advocates of the company to show that they had any bright pages in their annals until they came under Parliamentary control. An honourable gentleman had quoted some bitter words from the speeches of Mr. Burke on the occasion of well known impeachm en t s; b u t he (Mr. Mangles)_ would in repty read some passages from Lord Macaulay's " Memoirs of Clive and Hastings," in which the words were of a more sacchariae character. (Great laughter.) Thelhon. gentleman proceeded to quote from the memoirs referred to, far the purpose of showing that, at yucca isive periods from 1765, both Clive and Hastings had interfered to put down abuses ; and there could be no reforms without abuse s — (laughter) —that these great statesmen had introduced reforms into Indian administration which had afterwards been fully carried out by MunrotsEl phinstono, Cornwallis, Metcalfe, and others, lon g before Far' liameut had any control over the Government of India; ands bringing down the history of the administration of that com pany to the period when the Indian and the Malsomedari. equally regard w ith gratitude and respect the statu e of Lor d William Bsntinek, he contended that there were at least as many bright pages in the history of the East India Company before it was subject to Parliamentary control as there had been sieve. (flear, hear.) Th e Government had very inap propriately brought forward this bill (luring the mutiny's He was no alarmist ; ho believed the mutiny would be Pat down, but at present the whole province of Oude *as up in arms, and many other parts of India were in an unsettled state, and any proposition for a change, under such eircume stances, must have a bad effect on the people of India. Tk a honourable member for D evoupart had spoken with just warmth against those who ca led for an indiscriminate nuts' score of the whole peope of India, and very properly de fended the te aipsrate conduct of Lord Canning. But those were the very mon who petitioned against the rule of Lord Canning and the government of the East India Company Would not the people of India naturally say that if a change were made in accordance with the demands of the petitioners, that that change would be detrimental to the interests of the people of India. (Hear, hear.) He would admit frankly that the Government of India went too far in former days in sanctioning the abomination , ' of the Hindoo religion ; but lie thought persons were noW disposed to go further in the opposite direction. Both sys tems were bad. Formerly Hindoe superstitions were not only' countenanced but actually paid for —prayers for rain, for ex' ample—by the British Government. Much of this has bees altered ; and although we were bound to withdraw undue and wrong concessions, yet the people of India should not be led to believe that we were not only going to withdraw undue cone cessions, but to make religious aggressions upon them. The pulpit and the platform had already done much to alarm the people of India on that p o i nt. The Church Missionary Soc i e ty in a paper which they had lately issued deprecated the exist ing system of tolerationand hoped thatthe existing neutrality would no longer continue. And now, when the Government called for a change, he entertained strong fears that the pro position would fill the minds ef the Indian le with &lane, lest it should have the effect of bringing them peo un p der a rule less tolerant than what they experienced un or the East In° Company. (Heir.) Mr. ROEBUCK moved the adjournment of the debate t* Monday, and the motion was agreed to. GRAND JURIES (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion of Mr. FITZGERALD, leave was given to bring in a bill t o amend the laws relating to the prosentmea" of public money by grand juries in Irel4nd. HARBOURS OF REFUGE. Mr. BENTINCK moved that the select committee on bar', bours of refug e d o consist of 22 members, and that Admires Duncombe and Sir James Elphinstono be added. He cony.' plaiued that as th e committee was at present constitute° there was not a nautical manin it. Mr. WILSON thought the motion was unnecessary, ~,1 the committee h a d neatly finished its labours. It m ; sat the wh o l e o f last session, and was expected to make report by Easter. He admitted that Lord John He e, ra r e, was a nautic a l mem b er, had met with an accident, and if noble lord did not speedily recover, as he hoped he would, he would then arrange with the hon. gentleman opposite for the appointment of some ot h er nautical member on the COG' mittee. After some discussion, Mr. WILSON said he wou'd not, seeing the opinion of house to be in favour of the motion, further oppose it. The motion was then agreed to. The house then adjourned at a quarter to one o'clock. CRYSTAL PALACE.—ONR SHILLING DAY, Fridays Feb. 12.—Admiesions on payment, 341 ; ditto by season tickets, 179 ; t ota l v i,i tora. 520. [A.DvitaTisemENT.l—Holloway' s Ointment and Poi indisputable Remedies for the Cure of Bad Legs and Old Wounds.—lf these medicines are used aecording tO the directions given with them," there is no wound, beet leg, or ulcerous eore, however obstinate or long standing , hut will yield to their healing and curative p ro pertit%, Numbers of p ersons who have bk • patients in several off" the large hospitals, and under the care of eminent fo r. aeons, without deriving the slightest benefit, have be en cured 1"1 cured by oway's Ointm en t an d Pi lls. For glAud°; swelling s , t umour, scurvy , and diseases of the "fis ..: there is no r* dicine that can b e used with so good ll' efftet,—Sold by all inelicine vendors throughout to!' W ,, rld, aid at Profe4sor Holloway's Establishme nv f 244, Strand, London. BIRTHS. HowARD—Oa the 12th inst., at 21, Denbigh-pace, 'Mgr ( l e g : road, the wife of Alfred George Howard, solicitor, ° son. MARJORIBANKS- On the 12th inst., at 15, G rea t Stanbor , street, Mayfair, the wife of Edward Marjoribaoko, Esq., of a son. MARRIAGES. 0 GRAHAM —ADAMS —fhi the 4th inst., at St. John's. I l ea': stead, Walter Graham, Esq., of Porchester-square,„'l of park, the youngest son of the late Wm. Graham, -r 4s ' l ".ll, Cubby-hill, near Longtown, Cumberland, to Susa.: Selo eldest daughter of James Adams, Esq of college St. John's -wood. CAPELL— DEATH S. e ar, On the 24th Dee. last, on board H . M . S. Madago g Rio do la Plata, of yellow fever, the Hon. Randolph C a P - - third s,n of the Earl and Countess of Essex, a ged 2 6 - Coox —On tho 2Gth J an ., a t M a d e i ra, G rego o p , Cook, late of the firm of Shoolbrod and Cook, Tottenham -e° road. Es PATTY -On the 9th inst., at Bright on, J ames P a tel, - q., late of Hammersmith. SLOPER. —On tha Bth inst., at D ev i zes, Wilts, t h e ROT. sal a4P Sloper, aged 83. of UPWARD —On the 9th inst., J o h n Walter Upwar d, 16, Carleton-road, Maida-vale, and of the StockEzch'-' aged 71. LONDON : Painted and Published by MITRDO of No, 112, Strand, Printer, at 2714 Sun CH R°B O ' if 112, Strand, i n th e P rec i nct of the Savoy. i n thv of itidalesex, Saturday, February 13, 1858'