The Sun. — London, England, 1858-07-31 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. • HOUSE OF LORDS.—(IrEsrEnDAy.) The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack M five o'clock. AMENDMENT OF THE CRIMINAL LAW. Lord CAMPBELL said he begged to give notice that is intended to introduce two bills on very important subjects. His object in giving notice was that public attention might be drawn to the subject in order that be might obtain advice and assistance, for which he should feel grateful. The first bill was to prevent persons clan destinely proceeding before grand juries and preferring bills of indictment against parties for conspiracy, perjury. and obtaining money under false pretences,upon which, on the warrants issued, persons were taken into custody and imprisoned before any investigation could take place. Nowhe proposed that no such proceeding should be taken until there had been an examination before a magistrate, or the assent of one of her Majesty's judges or Attorney- General had been obtained. Toe other bill related to verdicts of juries. At the present time the unani mous verdict of the jury was absolutely necessary, and great inconvenience existed in consequence of a small portion of a jury remaining opposed to the remainder. What be proposed was not to be governed by the majority of the jury, but if, after certain deliberation, it wa s impossible for all to agree to one verdict, than the decision of the majority was to be taken and considered as the verdict of the whole body. Of course snob verdict would be subject to be reviewed by the judge, and, if found to be defective, to be set aside by a superior court. GLEBE HOUSES. Viscount DUNGANNON gave notice of his inten tion, providing the subject was not taken up by the ecclesiastical bench, to bring in a bill to regulate the repairs of glebe houses. THE ROYAL ACADEMY. Lord LYNDHUR,ST gave notice that next session he should call the attention of the house to the Royal Academy, first, as to its accommodation ; secondly, to the schools which for a number of years it bad supported at its own expense ; thirdly, to the management of the funds of the institution ; and. fourthly, to its future location. (Hear, hear.) He need not inform their lord ships that he took the deepest interest in the subject. THE VACANT SPACE NEAR ST. PAUL'S. In reply to the Earl of HARBINGTC , N, Earl DERBY said he bad made inquiries with respect to this piece of ground. He found that it was pro posed only to build upon half the ground, and as the erection would be of a semicircular form, the view of St. Paul's would not be impeded. The value of the ground was estimated at about 90,0001., and as the city only proposed to appropriate half of it, it would be making a sacrifice of between 45,0001. and 50,0001. for the benefit of the pubic. (Hear, hear.) THIRD READINGS. The following bills were read a third time and passed : —Militia Pay, Militia(Services Abroad) Act Continuance, Militia Act Continuance (No. 2), Corrupt Practices Pre vention, Judgments (Ireland) Act Amendment, and Civil Bill, &c. (Ir. , land) Act Amendment. PUBLIC HEALTH BILL. On consideration of the Coromoom' reagons for dig tgreeing from one of their lordships' amendments to ibis bill, the house resolved not to insist upon the amendment. PRIVATE BILLS. Lord REDESDALE drew attention to the standing orders relating to private bills, and proposed several new orders which he believed would economise both time and money, and facilitate the progress of bona fide schemes through Parliament, while they would afford security to the public, and to all persons concerned. The following are the more important:— There shall be one or more officers of this house, to be called, ' The Examiners of Standiog Orders for Private Bills,' who shall be appointed by the hou se . • " A printed copy of every private la, except estate bills, name bills, naturalisation and divorce bills, proposed to be introduced into either House of Parliament, shall be deposited in the office of the Clerk of the Parliaments on or before the 23d day of December. " The examination of the private bills which shall have been duly deposited in the office of the Clerk of the Par liaments shall commence on the 18th day of January. "Any parties shall be entitled to appear and to be heard, by themselves, their agents and witnesses, upon a memo flat addressed to the examiner, complaining of a non-com pliance with the standing orders, provided the matter com plained of be specifically stated in such memorial, and the party (if any) who may be specially affected by the non compliance with the standing orders have signed such me morial and shall not have withdrawn his signature thereto. " Theexaminers shall certify whether them tanding orders have or have not been complied with; and when they have not been complied with, ho shall certify the facts upon which his decision is founded, and any special circum stances connected with the case, such certificate to be ad dresed to and deposited in the office of the Clerk of the Parliaments. _ "In all cases of petitions for additional provision in private bills originating in this house, the examiner shall give at least two clear days' notice in the office of the Clerk of the Parliaments of the day on which the same will be examined ; and he shall report to the house whether the standing orders have, or have not. been complied with, and, when they have not been complied with the facts upon which his decision is founded,' an I any special circum stances connected with the case. " In case the examiner shall feel doubts as to the due construction of any standing order in its application to a particular case, he shall make a special report of the facts, without deciding whether the standing order has, or has not, been complied with ; and in such case he shall sand such special report' with the certificate. " That when any certificate of the examiner, in which he shall certify that the standing orders have not been complied with, shall have been referred to the Standing Order Committee, they shall report to the h o u se w h e th er such standing orders ought, or ought not, to be dis, ensed with, and whether in their opinion the parties should be permitted to proceed with their bill, cr any portion thereof, and under what (if any) conditions, " That when any special report from the examiners as to the construction of a standing order shall have baen re ferred to the Standing Order Committee, they shall deter mine, according to their cen , truction of the standing order, and on the facts stated in such report, w h e th er th e standing orders have or have not been complied with, and they shall then either report to the house that the stand ing orders have been complied with, or shall proceed to consider the question of dispensing with the standing order., as the case may "That in all cases in which, from the certificate of the examiners, or from the decision-of the committee upon spe cial reports, the question arises whether the standing orders ought or ought not to be dispensed with, the party praying for such dispensation may set forth in a written statement the grounds on which he rests his prayer : and the opposing party may also set forth in a written statement the grounds on which he rests his opposition, both parties confining themselves strictly to the points reported on by the exa miners, or determined by the committee on their consi deration of any special report of such examiners. "That when the committee think fit, they shall hear the parties in explanation of their written statements, but no party shall be allowed to travel into any matter that is not referred to in his statement, such statement to be lodged in the office of the Clerk of the Parliaments not later than 5 o'clock on the day before the day on which the committee is appointed to meet. "That in the case of a railway bill a sum not less than 8 per cent. on the amount of the estimate of expense, and in case of all other bills a sum not less than 1 per cent, on the amount of such estimate, shall, previously to the 15th day of January, be deposited with the Court of Chancery in England if the work is intended to be done in England, or with the Court of Chancery in England or the Court of Exchequer in Scotland if such work is intended to be done in Scotland, and with the Court of Chancery in Ireland if such work is intended to be done in Ireland. • " That in cases where the work is to be made out of money to be raised upon the security of the rates, duties, • or revenue to be created by or to arise under any bill under which no private or personal pecuniary profit or advantage is to be derived, a declaration stating those facts and set ting forth the means by which funds are to be obtained for executing the work, and signed by the party or agent soli citing the bill, together with an estimate of the probable amount of such rates, duties, or revenue, signed by the person making the same, may be deposited, and in such case no deposit shall be required." Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY expressed his ap probation generally of the proposed orders, which he believed were in cmformity with the recommendations of a committee of their lordships' house. Lord CAMPBELL hoped there was nothing in the amendments to confirm the doct-ine lately stated by a noble friend of his in the other house (Lord J. Russell), - that the House of Commons was the supreme power in the State because it possessed the power of the purse. It might as well be said that the Crown was the su preme power because it could make war and peace, and could cede the. I s l e o f Wi ght to the Emperorofte French if it chose ; o r th a t th e i r lordships were, bee in their judicial capacity th e y cou ld rule that the second son, and not the first, was heir to his father. (Hear.) The motion was then agreed to. BARONIES IN ABEYANCE. Lori REDESDALE gave notice of his intention to move the following address in the next session of Par liament :-- " That an bumble address be presented to her Majesty, showing,—That withino fu the Cr the last century several petitions have been p resen t ed Crown by persons claiming to be co-heirs o f peerages hundred years in abeyance which petitions have, according many to ancient custom, been referred to the H ouse o I Lords to report thereon ; that the laborious investig , tions consequent on such reference neces sarily occupy much of the time th w e ou h l o c use, I otherwise be devoted to the judicial bnness hi :f h which is thereby interrupted to the inconvenience with injury to the suitors; that until of the lords, and to the peerages called out of abeyance the period referred and only in favour of personsinheritian were few in number and well-known descent from the former immediate sa id p e erages ; whereas in many cases of lart e h r ol l ders of the ( ate that in heritance, from the long duration of the abeyance, come remote, indirect, and generally unknown, until proved be by the evidence before the house ; that the earlie P s r t °ved pre cedent to be found for calling a peerage out of abey ance is neither very ancient nor altogether free from the objection which necessarily attaches to any act done for the first time to meet a particular case, being that of the barony of Despencer, the abeyance of which was ter minated by King James the First in 160 , in order to carry out the amicable arrangement suggested by the House of Lords for the purpose of relieving themselves from the duty of deciding in favour of vile of the two claimants of the barony of Aberg.venny ; that an undue precedene aears to be given to the person in whose favour an abey ance for many generations i s t e rminated over other baron of ancient descent inheriting their titles through a long series - of ance , ters • th in w h en in 17&t an c- us, the first case referred to. Lord Botetowrt abeyance of 35S years was terminated, the that name, and yet ntosnrikmmoned sat as third lord only of Audley and the 15th Lord before the 17th Lord her Majesty that her ;1 Stourton • —end humbly pray ingto consider whether it is aje"Y will graeiouely pleased' blished custom of expedientreferringal to adhere to the esta peerages to the House of Lordspeitions of persons claim ingsball appear from such petitions, or in any ease in which it an torney-.C.;-aneral thereon, that the Y report of the At abeyance and has been so for more than age claimed is it. ',that bar MA jeoty may be further gracio.4ly Jeal-s; and n pleased to act in relation to such peerages in such manner as may appear expedient to her Majesty." Lord CAMPBELL Said, that the only remedy seemed to be to declare that after a peerage had been for a cer ain number of years in abeyan -e i hould not be claimed. Otherwise right must be done ; and their lord ships could not refuse a claimant his rights by sayil g is was inconvenient to do him justice. He did not think he rights of the peerage would be impaired if it were laid down that a peerage should be no longer claimed after it had been 100 years in abeyance. The motion was then agreed to. TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION WITH THE SUN, LONDON,_ SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 31, 1858. INDIA. Lord WODEHOUSE in rising, pursuant to notice, to ask her Majesty's Government their intentions re specting the establishment of telegraphic communication with India, said, that three distinct lines of communi cation had been proposed, of which that from Ragusa to Corfu and Alexandria seemed free from many of the ob jections to which the others were exposed. At the same time it was desirable that as many of these lines shout , ' be constructed as possible in order that we might have several independent means of communication with India. In the Eastern portions of the route our choice seemed to lie between two lines—one from Bussora to Kurra elute, and the other along the line of the Red Sea. The efficiency of the first depended upon the Turkish Go vernment, and he was not convinced that it would be a satisfactory mode of communication with India, the main objection being that the line was at the mercy of the Arabs who inhabited the wild country through which it passed. He did not mean to say that the telegraph was not carried through districts in India where the tribes were quite as wild, but there was a great difference between the Governments of Turkey and India. It was said that the safety of this line might be secured by sub sidising the Arab tribes. If the line were being mad« by an English company the Arabs might be subsidised 'y them, but at present the Turkish Government were constructing the line, which was an object of jealousy to the Arabs, and the Ottoman Government might not have the influence necessary to maintain it. If the Turkish Government could succeed in making the line it was very desirable that it should be constructed, yet, of the two, the line by way of the Red Sea seemed mast likely to form an efficient mode of communication with India. The ojections were principally of an engineer ing character. (A Noble Lord—Jeddah 'I) The Arabs on the Red Sea might be unfriendly, but the line would be carried along the bottom of the sea. The engineer ing difficulties in the Red Sea being surmounted he be lieved there would be oo great difficulty in carrying the line from the south-east end of the peninsula to Kurra- chee in Bimbay,•~nd this he had no doubt would be the most satisfactory and secure mode of communicating vith India. The question wag, how this line was to b made ? He believed that the proper course would be for be Government to make it at the public expense. Tbey would then hold in their bands the key of the communi cation between India and Europe. It was not very credit anle to the energy and enterprise of this country and of the Government that, at a time when telegraphic coca miunication with India was of vital importance to the interests of this country, not only was no line in course of construction, but no project had been adopted which Promised the speedy execution of a line of telegraphic communication (Hear.) The Earl of DONOUGH MORE agreed with the noble lord in the importance of the subject, but he was unable to give him any special information that had not been already laid before Parliament. It was, no doubt, desir. able that as many lines should be made as possib!e, but it was important that there should be one line, and the question was which line of telegraphic communication with India cAild be secured in the shortest time. When the line of the Austrian Government from Ragusa to Alexaudria should be completed there would be a tele• graphic communication from London to Suez, because a line now existed between Alexandria and Suez. Unfor tunately the Government bad not been able to make an arrangement with the Austrian Government with regaro to thie line. There were some points in dispute betwee, the two Governments, and no absolute agreement had yet been come to. Tne teiegraphic communication bet weer. Constantinople and Bussorah was to be made by an E±l g fish compu y, which bad obtained the coro , en t and suppor. of the Ottoman Government. He admitted that po r tion s . . of the line might be exposed to theattacks of hostile Arabs; but he believed that between Constantinople and Mosul no such difficulties would be encountered. The danger lay between Mosul and Bagdad, from the latter of which places it was intended to carry the telegraph in the bed of the Tigris to Bussorah, and thence by a submarine cable through the' Persian Gulf t) Burrachee. For his own part he was disposed to think that the route by the Persian Gulf was preferable to that by the Red Sea. In the first place, it was much shorter; and the experience with the Atlantic cable hardly warranted the anticipa tion that a submarine line could be laid down for so great a length as that of the Red Sea. In addition to this the depth of water in that sea was very various, and its bed was full of coral reefs. The Persian Gulf presented none of these difficulties. There were no great inequalities of bott3m, and no coral reefs ; and the gull was studded with islands, on which, as they were under the authority of our ally the Imaum of Muscat, we might easily esta blish repeating stations, and over which the telegraph might be carried on poles—an advantage which we should not possess in the Red Sea. There was under the consideration of the Government another project—viz., to lay a submarine mole from the southern coast of Eng. land to Gibraltar, from Gibraltar to Malta, and thence to Alexandria, so that the whole line might be under our own control. This was a subsidiary project, and one which could not be expected to be carried out immedi ately ; but under all the circutnstances, we should, within a reasonable pPriod, have established telegraphic communication between London and Bombay and Cal cutta. Lord STRA FFORD DE REDCLIFFE was glad to bear that her Majeety's Government intended to encou rage, and as far as possible to facilitate, the construction of an independent line of telegraphic communication. The noble lord referred to the engagements made by the rarkish Government f ir the establishment of telegraphic communication in chat country, but as he spoke wan his back to the gallery his remarks were almost entirely in audible. He was understood to say that it was desirable that the Government should encourage the conArucrion of a telegraph by the Red Sea route as we 1 as by that of Persia, and to impress upon their lordships the import ance of our having more than one line of communication with India, Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY said that if he was rightly informed, the Directors of the East India Com pany had consented to take under their own manage ment the construction of the submarine line from Busso rah to Kurrachee, and probably the new Indian Govern ment would adopt a similar course. For his ow❑ part he was inclined to think that, notwithstanding the danger from the A'abs, which there was reason to ~ ope would he diminished by the presence at B gdad i•f so energetic a governor as Omar Pasha, the line by the Per sian Gmlf would be the best of those proposed. At the same time he agreed with the noble lord that it aas de sirable that we should base more than one line of com munication with India. The question then arose how we could best communicate with Alexandria, whi-ther from Malta or by means of the Au-trian line from Ragusa to C irfu If he understood the noble earl rightly ❑egotta tions were sill pending with the Austrian Government as to our use of the last mentioned line, and nothing had yet been settled. In the event of the t-legraphic line in the Mediterranean going through British possessions, he trusted that the entire control would be placed in the hands of the English, and not in those of any foreign Government. If the attempt to lay the rleetric cable in the Atlantic again failed, and the Agamemnon should return home with a sufficient length of wire for the pur pose, he would recommend that she should be at once sent out to lay it down between Malta and Alexandria. This could be accomplished in a very economical manner and he should be glad to see such a line in the possession of her Majesty's Government. It had always seemed tu him a mistake not to make telegraphic communication part of the postal system of this country. Those lines could be maintained at a very moderate expense, and made even to contribu•e to the national resources. BANKRUPTCY LAW. The LORD CHANCELLOR, on rising, according to notice, to call their lordships' attention to this 8411 j-et, said that though there was a very wide spread feeling in favour of some amendment in the law of bankruptcy, yet the opinions entertained as to the mode in which that amendment should be made were various and con flicting. Any one, therefore, who undertook the task of reforming this branch of the law must expect to be be sieged on all sides by suggestions fr m practical men and theorists, from merchants and lawy re, and from debtors a-d creditors, all of whom were entitled to be heard on such a subject. Under those circumstances it was, pEr have leas a matter of surprise that his learned friend the Attorney General, in the midst of his multifarious occu. pations, should have been so long in framing a measure on this important question than that in the end lee should have been enabled to produce a bill in a form which might be submitted to their larJships' approval. Nor was it to be wondered at if, after the measure had been prepared by th e i n d us t ry an d a b i lit y o f hi s l earn ed friend, tthoseos t , who were t o b e respons ibl e f or it s h ou ld, as• en gto its leadin g f ea t ures , ye t o bj ect t o o th er —and those not utimportant—parts of it. In 1849 a bill to consolidate the bankruplr.wc-_tyhi,l,oanwpwasajdnturneddoureetdh,eaanudspaitcteesr the most careful cone.de of Lor Brougham, to indebted for his services in the this country was greatly m aft,r,,, , ard % direction. Not prac icai more than four years however, de fects seriously Impairing the efficiency ' o o r f wk that g Aa and were d covert d in its a commission to inquire into its operation accord ingly appointed in August, 1853. In April, 185 as .1 the commissioners made their report, recommendin g e va , ri l eus alterations in the law, some of which bad si e e t. t then been carried into effect. Many of their other suggestions, however, had not yet been adopted, and some :h o e r's ' were embodied in the bill which he was now about to ay on the table. He was not presumptuous enough to o anticipate a complete aequescence on the part of their lordships in the bill in its present shape. He invited friendly, and even hostile, criticism, because the quests , ion was not a pary one, and the earnest desire enter tained on all ties must be to make whatever ' Measure roasse.ultrrimeatneloympaws-171h,,5i , p m e ti f ,,r t as possible for to point out the l-ading principles on which the Government t e h n a t r meant to proceed in to lit anhsuklmtehreoiurlord hips to to this important subject s to agree to details which were both entitled to matur.Econsiderati,n, combined amendments with consolidation. It was i in all questions of law reform to determinewbeth-r necessary they ought to unite those two objects in the s , n , e It seemed advisable—though hie mind was not de initively made up on this point—to pursue the course recently taken with respect to the law of c pyhold. Ma terial amendments having been made in that law, as he understood, a measure was now in preparation for its consolidation. Hid intention was to give their lordships a mere iadt of the present Lill instead of a minute de scription of its details, .Suppning the quatiola iier9put at the outset, what would be the most desirable amend. meet of the bankrupt law, and that which would be mo , t, acceptable to the commercial community, be would refei their lordships for an answer to the important petition he had lately presented horn no fewei than 4,000 mei chants and bankers of the city of London, who put pr ininently forward their earnest wish that some legisl— ive sanction should he given to the arrangement debts by liquidation under the superintendence of in spectors. In that suggestion lay the principal key to th. measure which he was about to introduce. ,There wer , orovisions in this bill which would enable creditors tt avoid going through the expensive course of proceeding• in the Bankruptcy Court, in which, as their lordship knew, there was a per ventage upon the'estate of even ) insolvent debtor who went into the court, and in whirl the creditors had very little power over the pr.ceint logs, which were entirely under the control'of the office assignee. By the provisions of this bill either the credi tor or the debtor might proceed to the C of Bank ruptcy and there petition for an order with a view liquidation. When the petition was presented the debt()) immediately received a protection from the Court, an. was bound instantly to prepare a schedule of his debt, and assets. A meeting of creditors was then to be cals. within three or four days, at which meeting the credi. tors were to decide whether the estate of the bankrup should be wound up by means of liquidation, and in who , manner ; and if three-fourths in value and number uf the creditors agreed that the estate shoull be wound up that manner, that agreement should be binding on all of them. They might then proceed to the Bankruptc3 Court to o`z , tain an order of liquidation in the manna , agreed upon between them, and to appoint in spectors, and the debt r might be called upon to assist.. the whole matter went on completely under their con •rol and management, but they were not confined t. the particular arrangement which had been agreed upon, because if, in the course of the investigation of the affairs of the bankrupt, it should be found that a different ar rangement was advisable, then they would change the arrangement, of course with the consent of the majo. rity of the creditors • or if the debtor should turn out to be refractory, or if for any other reason it should be thought desirable that the affairs should be wound up in bankruptcy, they might abandon the arrangement &to gether and proceed to ask for an adjudication. So that in this manner the whole affairs of the bankrupt would be completely within the power of the creditors. There were other provisions of minute detail which would enable this machinery to work most completely and satis factorily. Tnose provisions won d not in the slightest de gree interfere with the mode of winding up the affairs o an insolvent debtor, which was now very much resorted to, namely, deeds of arrangement and composition. That he • egarded as a most important feature in this bill. Then the question arose how were they to deal with non-traders. At times a desire had been expressed that all distinc tion betwden traders and non-traders should be abo lished, and that both alike should be suipject to proceed ings in bankruptcy. He had very great doubts whether it would be desirable to abolish that distinction. As at present advised, he did not think it would be advisable, but at the same time he thought it was proper that where a person who was not in trade had incurred debts which he was unable to pay, and where he went on wasting that sub.tance which in justice should be distributed among his creditors, they ought to have the power of eof oicing a just and hone- t distribution of his effects. It would accordingly be found that provision was made for enabling the creditors to compel a liquidation of the debts of non-trading debtors by means of the machinery provided with re pent to traders. But that provision was guarded in a certain way, and for this reason it ap peared to him that it would not be advisable, where a debt was merely owing, that the creditor should go at once to the Bankruptcy Court and insist on the non-trading debtor being brought into the court and the whole of his effects being distributed in satisfac tion of his debts. That provi-ion was therefore Vow guarded :—Where a creditor had a judgment Upon which he could issue execution, or where there had sea an order or decree of a court, for the payment r.f money, wnich had been served upon the debtor end bad not been paid at a certain time, then the eredit sr might go to the Bankruptcy Court and present a petition for liquidation and obtain an order, whereupti the non-trader was brought within the juris fiction of the Bankruptcy Court and the machinery ot this liquidation. In that matter he would be compelled to de justice to his creditore, which, if be was an honest man, he would be disposed to do without the necessiy of having recourse to these measures. There was also this provision—that a person who was not a creditor might, if he pleased, voluntarily submit himself to the proceedings of the Bankruptcy Court. There was ano ther subject which, as their lordships knew, had occu pied a great deal of public attention, — namely, the pro oriety of some measure for administering in the Bankruptcy Court the estates of insolvent debtors after their decease. There would be found in this bill various clauses wnich were familiarly known as dead men's clauses. The subject was full of difficulty. It was very difficult indeed to know under what circumstances it would be desirable that the Bankruprey Court should have the administration of the estate of a deceased creditor instead of the Court of Chancery, which had now jurisdiction to administer or distribute the estate through the medium of a creditor's suit. Their lordships were aware that where there was an adjudication against a debtor in bankruptcy and he died the next day, the Bankruptcy Court, having possession as it were of his property, could administer it after his death. And therefore this bill provided, with regard to the effects of a deceased insolvent debtor, that if there had been an act of bank ruptcy committed a month before his death, and if there were an application for adjudication within a month of his death, the Bankruptcy Court should then have the power of administering his property. There was also in this bill an important provision as to the mode of deal ing with partnerships where a firm became insolvent. It was proposed to treat the firm itself as a person, and to allow a fiat in bankruptcy to issue against the firm in the same manner in which it might issue against indivi dUal partners, and to apply to it the system which ex isted with regard to corporate and quasi•corporate bodies, so as to enable the creditors to compel individual part ners to satisfy the joint liabilities of the firm. At the same time that this was a new system it would not in terfere with the old one as to insolvent individual part ners, where the firm itself remained insolvent. The sub ject of joint-stock companies had of course occupied a great deal of public attention. Their lordships were aware that those companies were amenable to the bank ruptcy laws, but that the law relating tterthem could hardly be deemed a part of the bankruptcy code, i irieeeu administration . p , tt a ci t ey e .euk upon c iio o nh m et r p he a a n th i subject, ud s f b b bjt y eehee et t n: h r a e a tn C gff ‘ d re , t u echat r es t t because they were governed by an Act of Parliam en t relating exolusively to them. The law p rov id e d forof Chancery,th e wi• o cboyntthe,,et betwe en d i n e ag n ifdu the pf B au thor o °r al ntj Legislature had endeavoured to remove all doubts upon it by bringing the two streams, as it were, into one re ceptaele. It was propo•ied to take away the business of winding-up from the Court of Chancery, and to confer it upon the Bankruptcy Court. He believed that would 69 deemed upon the whole t ) be a very desirable altera tion. It was proposed that the Bankruptcy Court should bave, in adoition to its existing powers, all the powers which existed under the Winding-up Acts, and th at joint-stock companies should have the same facilities with regard to the liqu dation of their debts as was afforded in the case of debt Ts and creditors in the man ner already mentioned. If his noble and learned friend Lord Brougham were then in the house, he would pro bably say, " What are you going to do with the County Court judges ? Are you going to g ive them any in creased jurisdiction on this suhj act l' He thought that the county tour's badly possessed the machinery which rendered it desirable that they should have a more ample jurisdiction in these matters than they had at present, and he did not propose, therefore, to throw any portion of this business upon them. In the petition to which he had already referred, from the merchants and bankers of London, it was suggested that all distinctions between insolvency and bankruptcy should be abolished, and that traders and non-traders should be subjected to one common law. He did not know that the matter was quite ripe for that proposition, but he proposed that the vacancies which took place in the Insolvent Court as they occurred should not be filled up. He believed that the processcf liquidation provided in the bill would reduce the business of the Courts very considerably, and that in a short time they might be able to put an end to the Insolvent Court altogether, one Court being suffi cient for the business it would then have to transact. The bill further provided that a good deal of the business ot the Bankruptcy Commissioners, being purely of an ad ministrative character, should be transacted in chambers, where it might be conducted more conveniently and less expensively than in open court. There were some of the officers of the court to whom it was necessary to advert. His noble and learned friend Lord Brougham bad been extremely desirous that the official assignees should he paid partly by salary and pertly by fees, and had ob jected altogether to their being paid by salary alone. The bill did not at present touch that question, because it was quite uncertain what the effect of the proceed ings for the liquidation of the affairs of an insolvent debtor might be, and it was very possible that it might remove so much of the business from the Bankruptcy Court as to leave the official assignees without sufficient emolument from fees. It would be time to consider ibis subject moro in detail when they knew exactly what ointed under the provisions would be the amount of business. With respect to the a . they te r of any Lax ofwePraerlileanptp, but were selected by each C imixossioe to attend his court, having the duty i m . them of taking a valuation, in every instance, posed upon brokers, T valuation o f broker - a was of a bankrupt's effects. tie . costlyandutterly useless proceeding, and it was a very proposed by the bill to abolish it altogether, and to pro vide for a valuation either under the authority of the Court or with the sanction of the creditors, as might be considered most advisable. And inasmuch as those persons were not appointed ' under any Act of Parlia ment, and had no legal claim to their offices, they could have no title t i compensati o n on the abolition of their office). There was another matter which bad led to tauclelitigation, and on which it was necessary to legis laee—that was with respect to the classification a certi ficates. As the law now stood there were three classes of certificates—first, second, and third- - .vhich were awarded according to the suppo,od merits or demerits of the bankrupt. Lord CAMPBELL—Do away with them altogether. The LORD CHANCELLOR continued,—His noble and learned friend had anticipated him. The bill pro posed to do exactly what his noble and learned friend bad suegested. The coinmiesioners took different views of what constituted moral delinquency. Then came appeals to the Lord Chancellor or to the Lord Justices, and a great amount of time was wasted in considering the kind of certificate which a bankrupt ought to receive. The bill abolished the distinction. There was only one other point—but it was a very important one-4o which it was necessary to direct attention, and that was with regard to the offeucs of bankrupts and insolvents, and t heir punishment. He was astonished to find that the bankers and merchants of the city of London desired to give the commissioners power to punish fraudulent ankrupts or insolvents by sending them to the House , t Correction. Now, he must say that he never would onsent to invest any man with the arbitrary power of ending a person to prison without the intervention of a iry ; and therefore he could not consent to that propo itiou, although he might observe in passing that his hon. and learned friend who prepared the bill originally seemed have given his adhesion to it. The offences pecu tar to bankrupts, such as the falsification of accounts, ;he concealment of property, and the like, would re inire a great deal of consideration, because the languaee .f the bill as originally framed was not sufficiently pre ise to exclude from t h e o peration of the punishment lenses various dealings which he believed were con idered to be perfectly legi'imate in the city of London —among others, the accepting of accommodation bills. he mentioned this in the hope that during the recess heir lordships would direct their particular attention to his portion of the bill. He himself should devote all he time in his power to it, and should endeavour, as ,eutiously and guardedly as he could, to frame those !Wises so as to meet cases of real delinquency. He loped that he bad kept his word with their lordships, end that he should not be considered to have entered too ninutely into details. He had endeavoured to make his remarks serve rather as an index to the bill, pointing ut the more important provisions which it contained. fie trusted that those who took an interest in the sub ject would give him the benefit of their assistance and ~deice in considering most carefully the clauses of the ill, in order that at the commencement of next session the Government might be enabled to introduce a neasure which would prove beneficial to the public, and would receive the ready acceptance of the whole com mercial c)mrnunity. (Hear, hear.) Lord CAMPBELL would cont -nt himself with express ing his entire approbation of the Course which had been aken in this matter by his noble and learned friend on the woolsack, in having deliberately considered the sub ject, and having favoured th e ir lordships with an ou - line of the measure which he proposed. This certainly question, and all must be a nx i ous t o as sist learned friend i n f ram i ng hi s measure sothat asnios noble t oa s br h tley and ould be generally acceptable to the public. He trusted that his noble and learned friend would con eider whether means could not be adopted for abolishing the distinction between traders and non-traders, and he euegested Vat a p6rusal of the Scottish bankruptcy laws , e ight enable him to arrive at a solution of that ques tion. The Scotch laws upon the subject generally were worthy of consideration ; for he believed that under there the expense of working the commission and dis tributing the effects of a bankrupt did not exceed a charge of 7 per cent. upon the estate, IP contrasted with about 3t ver cent. under the Eoglieh law. Lord CRANWORTH expressed his satisfaction at the lucid statement of his noble and learned friend on the woolsack. In most of the propositions of his noble and learned friend he entirely concurred, though, of course, he could not be expected to give in his assent to all the details without further consideration. He was glad that the noble lord proposed to amend be fore consolidating, for of coarse until it was settled what the law on the subject was to be it was impos sible to propeed to consolidate it. He sincerely hoped that in the course of the next session a comprehensive measure of amendment and consolidation on this subject should pass into law. The bill •S then rPad a first time. CONSOLIDATED FUND APPROPRIATION BILL. This bid was read a third t me and passed. The CLERK at the table reported that the Commons agreed to the Lords' amendments in the Local Govern ment Bill ; that the C ,mmons did not persevere in their ~ bjections to the amendments in the Government of India Bi 1 on which their lordships insisted ; that the C , rnmons disagreed from the Lords' amendments in the Divorce and Matrimonial Causes Act Amendment Bill. Their lordships then res 1 ved not to insist on their ainPridments in the last measure. The honqe aajlu;ned shortly before 9 o'clock till a quarter to 2 on Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS-(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock. THE OPIUM TRADE. Numerous petiti.n4 were presented condemning the opiu .. trade in China. ELECTIONS BY VOTING PAPERS. Mr. ROEBUCK pre.ented a petition from a gentle man who advocates elections by voting paper& TRUSTEES AND EXECUTORS. Mr. ROEBUCK asked the Attorney-General if it was the intenti n of Government to bring in a bill next session of Parliament to relieve trustees and executors from the present severe laws affecting them, and to en. large their powers for the better administration of trust estates. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, after referring to the question, and what had been done in respect to it, said it would be somewhat presumptuous in him after the difficul ties felt in so many quarters to make any promise on the subject. He should be prepared, if it lay in his power, to remove the objections felt, and if he succeeded e should be ready to submit a bill to the attention of the house next session, but only on the supposition that be thought the difficulty could be overcome. RETURNS. Numerous unoppised returns were ordered. SERGEANT BRODIE. In reply to Mr. CONINGHAM, General PEEL said it was impossible for him to say what private communications had passed between his predecessors and Sergeant Brodie, but no official docu- ment or remonstrance from Sergeant Brodie was in the office of the department over which he (General Peel) presided. Sergeant Brodie was appointed fireman the saddlery department, subject to the same terms of dismissal as others, and it was not customary to make allowance for anything that was done privately before quitting office. Sergeant Brodie was dismissed on the 18th of September, and so far from refusing the gratuity offered to him, he (General Peel) had seen a receipt from Sergeant Brodie, dated September 19th, acknowledging its receipt. The alterations suggested by Sergeant Brodie in the saddlery had been submitted to the Inspector-General of Cavalry, who had decided against their adoption, and it was not customary to give remuneration in cases where the suggestions were not adopted. With regard to the last question, he had to state that Captain Smith received 103. a day as salary in addition to his half-pay. ' SIJBALTERNS OF THE ARMY. Colonel FREESTUN gave notice that early next session he should call the attention of the house to the condition of the subalterns of the army. In reply to a question from Mr. CRAWFORD, Mr. HAMILTON said the answer from the Austrian Government with reference to the telegraph from Corfu to Alexandria had not yet been r , -ceive , i. BANKRUP ICY AND INSOLVENT LAWS. Mr. NICOLL asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if it was the intenti , n of her Majesty's Government to lay upon the tahle of either house the long-promised bill to amend the law relating to bankruptcya: d insolvency, so that members might have an opportunity to consider the same dlring the recess. Toe CITA NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he understood the Lord Chanealor int,nded to introduce a bill of this kind that night in the House o! Lords. TELEGRAPH TO INDIA. Mr. WILSON a. , ked the Chancellor of the Exche quer, what progress had been made in arrangements for completing a telegraphic communication through the Mediterranean to Alexandria, and thenc3 to India, since ,he dates of the last papers upon the subject, recently laid upon the table of the house I Tee CHANCELLOR , of the EXCHEQUER said the Turkish Government had granted concessions for carry in, the telegraph from Alexandria to Aden, and her Majesty's ' Government was in communication with that purpose, with a view of c - mtinuing it on from Aden to India. It the negotiations were concluded he had every reas•l3 to hope and believe that the line would be com menced in the autumn. (Hear, hear.) TRAC rioN ENGINES. Sir DE LACY EVANS asked the President of the India Board whe'.her it was intended to act on the strong recommendations by the official authorities at Woolwich of Bray's and Boydell's traction engines, as being likely, in the opinion of these authorities, to prove of utility to the army in India in facilitating the trans port oftroops, artillery, and stores. Lord STANLEY said, that on 223 of this month a letter was written from the Board of Control to the Directors at the East India Huse, containing an official report on these traction engines, suggesting that four of them should be sent to India, viz., two to Calcutta and two to Bombay. He had not yet received a reply from the Court of Directors. There was no doubt as to the value of the principle of these engines, but there was as to whether the working construction was fit for con veyance of heavy stores in India. THE CASE OF MRS. TURNER. Mr TITE asked the hon. member for Hereford, as one of the Commissioners in Lunacy, whether their attention has been called to the case of Mrs. Turner, lately a lunatic patient in Acombe H ouse, near York ; and, if so, what steps had been taken by the commis sinners in regard thereto. Colonel CLIFFORD said the attention of the com missioners was called to the case through the news• papers on Saturday, and on Monday last the y instituted aninquiry int o th e circumstances, and commissioners were now sitting at York for that purpose. (/-lear, hear.) .... THE WELLINGTON MONUMENT. Lord ELCHO asked the First Commissioner of Works whether, as h e h a d announc ed his intention of causing a full-sized m o d e l o f the W e lli n gton monument to be made by Mr. Steph ens, an d p l ace d on the proposed site be fore anything more is finally decided upon, he would give the p u bli c an oppor t u nity of viewing the work of any other sculptor who might be willing, on his own re sponsibility, to make a design and full-sized model of the monument ? Lord J. MANNERS said, adopting the noble lord's cen-truction of my words on the occasion referred to, he answered his question in the negative. Lord ELCUO said he should early next session take the sense of the house upon the point raised in his ques tion. THIS EVENING'S BUSINESS. The CEIA.NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that, in consequenca of the state of publics business, be proposed to go with the orders of the day before he proposed tbeadj , urnment of the house till Monday. Mr. V SMI t R objected, but did not propose any amendment. GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL. On the motion for considering the Lords' amendments to this bill, Mr. V. SMITS rose to ask certain questions con nected with India, but at that period of the session it was not his intention to raise a discussion on the affairs of India, though he certainly regretted that, notwithstand! ing the house had been occupied during a great part of the latter end of the session with the discussion relating to the government of India, there bar', in fact, been no discussion on their present and future relations with that part of the empire. The first questi.,n be now wished to put was connected with the position of the army in India at the present moment. He wished to learn from the noble lord the President of the Board of Control what was the Amount of the force at present in India. When the late Government left office it appeared from the best autho rities that it was necessary to have 80,000 European troops in India, and that was about the number calcu lated to be there at that time. It was then calculated hat, owing to the insalubrity of the climate, accidents in warfare, disease, and deaths in action, reinforcements ought to be provided to the amount of 20,000 in the nourse of the year. The noble lord had stated that since January last 17,000 men had been sent to India ; but, as no troops could be added to the establishment of In dia unless upon application of the East India Company, he wished to know whether the director+ of the Com pany had applied to the Government to add to the forces in India owing to advices they had received, and a de sire on their part that the establishment should be in creased, or whether those 17,000 only constituted the necessary amount to supply vacancies caused by disease and deaths is action. That was an important point, be cause they really had no information on the subject ex cept from the columns of the newspapers. He made no complaint on that score, because he knew how difficult ' it was to get information from India during thehurry con sequent upon actions ; but he thought that by this time it should be known what was the amount of the European troops and of the rebel troops in that country. They knew the number of regiments which had rautinied, and he believed that no additional levies bad been added to the troops which had mutinied, and the Contin gents of the native States which had also mutinied. The last accounts from India appeared to him to be, so far as they went, very satisfaCtory, but the house could not help observing that, though the British arms were vic torious everywhere, and though the mutinous troops were defeated and dispersed, the latter were not de stroyed, but rallied agrin, returned to their former scenes of action, and retook places. Everything indi cated, indeed, not only present and immediate resist ance, but long and, he feared, protracted resistance. Therefore, it was desirable that Parliament should be in• firmed what was the actual condition of the British troops in Ind a, and what additional amount was in tended to be sent out. His next question related to another important suhjsct, namely, the organisaiton of the Military Commission which the noble lord had issued. On a former occasion he observed that the composition of that commission had been to a certain degree altered, and that the civil element had been put on it. That was an important element, and he was sorry to see it omitted, though no doubt there might be satis factory reasons for the omission. The public, however, wished to be informed of the nature and powers of the commission. He was told that the GoverOor-Gene ral had issued circulars, through Colonel Durraut, to procure information, and no doubt the informa tion received in answer to those circulars might be useful in respect to the future organisation of the army. He wished to know what was intended on that point. The sepoy element seemed to have broken down, and some people were anxious to introduce the Saths and Goorkas into the army. But those were troops which required great supervision on the part of our own troops, and though the Sikhs, combining with the English in action, were under present circumstances powerful allies, they might be hereafter dangerous ene mies. It was, therefore, doubtful whether any of those troops could be trusted alone. That was an important question, as hitherto the British bad been able to keep the country by means of the troops ithey had con• quered in action. It the commission could really sit at present and go into all these dwells, it might not be a bad commission, but if the commission were to be insti tuted, for the Government to rely en hereafter, that was not a course worthy of a British Minister, and one which he trusted that the noble lord would not pursue. (Hear.) He hoped that there would be men on the noble lord's Council competent to institute a plan for the re-oganisa tion of the Indian army much better than any commis sion. There was plenty of information on the subject, comprising the opinions of Sir -H. Lawrence, General Jacob, a l es General Napier The third subject on which he wished to obtain information referred to our fiscal relations with India. At an early period of the pre-ent session au Act was passed enabling the East India Com pany to borrow 8,000 0001. between the time at which the measure became law and the month of April, 1859. That Act contained a clause providing that the Com paoy should present to Parliament at the coinuasceement of the next session a statement of their finances, showing what amount they had borrowed and how much re• mained in their hands. He thought, however, that the likely s d teb : eleel seAh teaotd. beaube I empowered i: codurrr t dar o .e.rdn b t o uuo e ppt r ool o r n,etw, about w aonte,uhdr o et u i aat l nb.dpdiB r c ti e ihi o r urrs i me 4,000,0001.uhf noble lord might be able to inform the house what he e amount the East India Company ad actually borrowed information referred transactionsa r i e po e n x n d ru p aueteanotils corncl i e yoe i .f up to this time, and whether he believed the amount they plate, the house ought also to know what amount of was to receive money from nv>rcbants in this country, givingti s nature a t t u h reem amountedbi bills upon That system was discontinued when the act was passed, as it was thought imprudent to draw upon the Indian finances at a time when money might be urgently re quired for the public service. If loans had been nego tiated is India last year more sue essfully than during the previous year, it was probable that bills were not drawn upon India in the usual method ; and he hoped the noble lord would be able to afford some information to the house upon that point. The last question he wished to ask was whether any instructions bad been sent, or would be sent, to proclaim her Majesty's name and authority in India, and to announce the intentions of the Government as to non-interference with the re ligion of the natives. The noble lord had, on a former occasion, answered the first part of this question, by stating that it was his intention that a proclamation establishing government in the Queen's name should be issued in India. The noble lord did not state whether such proclamation would be sent from this country, but it it were not done, he (111 r. Smith) thought instructions ought to be given to the Governor-General of India to issue a proclamation to that effect without delay, The other part of his question referred to a subject of the greatest importance, upon which misunderstanding might easily arise. The proclamation of the Queen's name would, no doubt, impress the natives of India with the notion of a very c-naside'able change, but differ • ent interpretations might be put upon it. Some persons might regard it as a means of introducing and forcing Christianity upon the natives, and it was therefore most desirable that their proclamation should be accompanied by some explanation which would prevent such a mis apprehension. On the other hand there existed in this c iuntry a belief—whether w , -11-founded or not—tbat in the late direction of affairs in India there had been a disinclination to maintain the truth of our own religious faith, and that to great a deference had been paid to the religion of the natives. He therefore thought it advisable that the Government should adopt some means, by pro clamation or otherwise, of declaring that, while they were fully prepared to maintain the Christian faith, they would be most jealous of any interference with the reli gion of the natives, and would cautiously guard against any indiscretion in that respect on the pert of persons sinplcyed in the public service, He thought the noble lord might fairly take Parliament into his confidence upon these sut , jects, for upon him devolved a greater task than had perhaes fallen to the lot of any Minister —a task almost as great as that of founding a new empire in India. In his (Mr. V. Smith's) opinion the task of those who had been engaged for two c 'nturies in establishing the Indian empire was lees difficult than that which now devolved upon the Briti-h nation of re establishing that empire, the glory of which had been destroyed by the late mutiny, although he hoped it would still continue one of the most important and valu able possessions of the British Crown. Mr. STAPLETON said the noble lord the President of the Board of Control, in moving the second reading of the Government of India Bill, had stated that the arrangements then contemplated with regard to the non scientific branches of the Indian army were merely tem porary, and that the whole subject of the reorganisation of thas army was to be referred to a commission ; and he begged to ask whether the members of the Council for the affairs of India to be appointed by Government would be appointed subject to any subsequent decision of Parliament with respect to appointments of c tdetships ? Mr. RICH thought the observations of his right hon. friend (Mr. V. Smith) implied some distrust with regard to the proclamation which the noble lord had intimated his intention of issuing ; but he could only say, from the declarations which had been made by the noble lord in the course of the discussions ou the India Bill, that in his opinion Parliament might, entertain full and entire confidence that the noble lord, in deal ing with this great subject, would act with firmness and moderation, and would temper justice with mercy. His right hon. friend (Mr. V. Smith) had totally ignored a large body of our fellow-subjects in India, who had, with very trifling exceptions, throughout most try ing circumstances maintained their loyalty—the armies of Madras and Bombay. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman bad also ignored the loyalty ef a number of the native princes, who bad magnanimously upheld Bri tish dominion. (Hear.) He felt confident, however, that the noble lord, while he asserted the proud dominion of England, would at the same time recognize the loyal spirit which had been *manifested throughout India by large bodies of our Indian fellow-subjects. Lord STANLEY —The house is entitled to demand, and I think the public may fairly expect to receives some information upon these important questions to which the right bon, member for Northampton (Mr. V. Smith) has referred ; and I am glad he has afforded me an op portunity of briefly stating to t he house what I believe to be the position of affairs with regard to the points to which he has called attention. In the first place, I have been asked as to the extent of the European fore , at present in India, and I think the right hon, gentle man also inquired whether we could form any estiinate oo our ther troops strengthareof opposed those in the bod point I am a f ra id it is not possible for me, or indeed for upon t o whom any ono ev e n iu India, to form a n accurate judgment It, does appear that of late the org anized insurrection has everywhere been defeated , but that parties of armed in surgents are scattered far an d wide throughout the coun try, eluding pursuit, and g enerall y avoiding conflict with our troops. Under these circumstances it is utterly impois ono to s iblo for any ies field. of Now, mutineers the latteray what is the .strength of the mutineers. It is probably unknown, not only to any British general, but to any lender of the insurgents. (Elear, This is more likely to be the cas , -, because I learn—not from any official report, brit from private letters—that at the time when the in- surrection existed in a more organized form than I hope is the case at present, recruiting went on ra pidly among the insurgents, and that some of the revolted Sepoy regiments regularly enli-ted new re cruit -t, forming in one irreance a second battalion, with a view of preserving in some degree the military order and discipline to which they had been accustomed in our service. As to the strength of our European force I am able to give a more eatistactory answer. tTbe right bon. gentleman sated a few nights ago that he had seen some account which represented the effee ive European force in India as being reduc , d to 26,000 men. I am happy to say that that account is yen/ far le-low 'he reality. (Hear, hear) I have obtained from the Wer D • pertinent the la'est return which they posse's of rh strength of the Queen's army, and perhaps the best course I can take alit be to read, not the return as I have it, but a summary of the twals. The total number of Europeans in the Queen's army sn..nosed to he in India or on their way out was 78 416 ; but from that it is fair to say there must be deducted 7,456 men who were reported sick at the time when these returns were made, and 11,059 were draughts on their way on . . These troops will probably have arrived at the pressit time, and will consti rite part of the effective R reegth of the force, which will thus comprise nearly 71,000 'nee, The re urns are not all of the same date ; some are dated the Ist of May, others the let of June ; and, of course, further deductio',B —I am afraid a con iderabc reducri —must be made for ca-ualties since that time. But the fact remains that the Queen's army at the date of the latest returns numbered nearly 60 000 effective min e and about 11,000 draughts on their way out. (Hear.) With regard to the Company's forces, I have obtained a memorandum from the East India Hou=e, which is made up partly by ac ual statements of facts and partly by estimate to the let of July. It gives a total of 15 855 Company's troops (European). That number is made up, I should say, by ad.iing tee troops embarked in Juno and July, and now on their way ; but there is also a deduction of 1,192 for casualties, estimated upon the proportion of loss which has occurred up to the date of which we have information. I need not say that no estimate of this kind can be entirely reliable, and therefore the papers which I quote must be looked upon as forming as approximate calculation only. We have thus, however, an estimated strength of 15 800 Company's 'troops and 71,000 Queen's troops (all Europeans)," making a total of between 86,000 and 87,000 Europeans; and it is obvious that, alter the largest deduction which it can be necessary to make (and I am afraid that deduction must be a heavy one) fer losses sustained by service in the field and by sickness consequent on exposure since the date to which these returns refer—after, I say, making the largest and most liberal deduction on that account, we may still con eider that we have between 70 000 and 80,000 effective men certainly above 70,000--fir service in India, (Hear.) I was asked by the right hon. gentleman how many of the men sent out since January last were, at the request of the directors of the C impany, added to the establishment in India, distinguishing them, I sup pose, from the number of draughts aid recruits ? On this point I have received a memorandum from the East India House, dated the 23d of this month, giving Ge figures which I quoted in the house the other day. I then state t that nearly 17,000 had been sent out between January and July. Tne exact number I find is 16 730, and of those all are drau 4 late or recruits except 634 be ing eight companies of her Majesty's 57 h Regiment. Tire 16,000 are, therefore, draughts and recruits. Other regiments have been despatched fr im various parts of the world. TOO house will remember that at an early period of the insurrection application was made—not, according to form, through the Board of Directors here, but direct y—at the Cape and other places, and these re quests were, from the urgency of the occasion, acceded o without waiting for orders from home. With regard to the second question addressed to me by the right hon. gentleman, as to the objects of the cmarniesion which is to inqure into the orga,i , ation of the Indian army, Uinta I shall best reply by reading the heath, of the inquiry upon which it is intended that that corn mie-ein shall enter. They we : "1. The terms on which the army of the East India Company are to be transferred to the Crown. " 2. The permanent force necessary to be maintained in the Indian provinces respectively after the restoration of tranquillity. "3. The proportion which European should bear to Native troops, in infantry, cavalry, and artillery respec tively. " 4. How far the European portion of the army should be composed of troops of the line. taking India as part of the regular tour of service, and how f r of troops raised for service in India only. "5. In connexion with this question the best means of providing for the periodical relief of the former portion, and of securing the elfieiency of the latter. "6. Whether it be possible to consolidate the European forces, so as to allow of exchange from one branch of the service to the other, and what re ulations would be neces saryand practicable to effect this object with perfect ju aice to the claims of all officers now iu the service of the East India Company ? "7. Whether there would be any admixture of Euro pean and native forces, either regimentally or by brigade ? "S. Whether the local European force should be kept, up by draughts and volunteers from the line, or should be, as at present, separately recruited for in Great Britain ? " 9. Whether it would bo possible to raise any regiments in the colonies, either for temporary or permanent service in India i "10. Whether the native forces should bo regular or irregular, or both, and if so, in what proportions? "11. Whether any native artillery corps should be sanctioned? "12. Whether cadets sent out for service with native troops should in the first instance be attached to European regiments, to secure uniformity of drill and discipline ?" These are the heads of the inquiry proposed. As to the reference made to the modification which has taken place in the constitution of the commission, it was origi nally considered desirable that, besides the civilians who aro officially to sit upon it, there should be Vire() other gentlemen of eminence in public life who should give it the benefit of their experience and of their services ; but from various circumstances, and more especially coo sidering the time of year at which this commissi , n was to sit—the first meeting having taken place in the course of the present week, end the next being fixe I fur Tuesday—it was found so difficult to obtain the services of those who we desire should sit upon the commission that that part of the scheme was abandoned. It is quite true that an inquiry—the nature of which I do not exactly know—upon the came subject is taking place in India ; hut though, of course, there are many advantages in instituting an investigation of that kited upon the spot, one great disadvan age attends it— namely, that the great majority of those officers whose services would be mast valuable are actively engaged, and are unable, therefore, to give their attention o This objection does not apply in the same degree to those who have either retired Irma the servics, or who, on the ground uf health, have lately returned from India, and I am happy to say we have many of that description whose advice and assistance will he most valuable. Be fore I leave the suject of the oommi,sion I will state that it is not intended and cannot be intended, to lessen in any the slightest degree the respensibility which must devolve upon the Government for the settlement of this very large question. (Hear, hear.) The ultimate de cision, be it what it may, mu-t depend upon the re sponsibility of the Government of the day, and the re , port of the commission of inquiry will carry with it no other weight than that which is derived from the eminence of its members, the experience and know ledge they bring to hear upon the subject, and the soundness of the reasons they employ. (Hear, hear.) I have been told that some arrangements winch I pro posed on the second reading have been departed from, because patronage which formerly rested with the direc ors will henceforth b 3 vested in the Crown Now, in recommending that proposition to the approval of the house, my wish was to carry on as far as possible the analogy of the system which actually exists ; and I confess I think the hon. member who referred to toe subject, when he describes the mem bers of this Council as being taken entirely from one class of society, whereas members of the Court of Larec tors were taken from quite another, has, to use the mildest term, entirety overstated the csse. Certainly a large and very valuable section of al former C torts of Directors always consised cf men of 1 diets service and experience ; but I mey remind the house that there is in the bill as it stands an actual legal provision they, a majority, and something more, of the Council should be taken from that same class. Teen the same hon. mem ber asked me whether it was intended that the arrange ment with regard to the non-scientifi3 military appoint ments should be provirtional only, and subject to the report of the commission, or whether it was i tended as a permanent arrangement. Now, it is obvious that what one Act of Parliament has sanctioned another at any future period can overthrow. As to the objection that compensation might be claimed where any appoint ments of this kind were taken away, we have shown, I think, what our fecaings are upon that point by the 14th clause of the bill, in which it is stated expressly that if the Council itself were abolished within 10 years no claim for compensation could arise. (blear.) Naturally, as discussion has gone on we have seen our way more clearly, but I do not think it is proper—though, of cour se, it is in the power of Parliament to deal with the subject as it will—that any measures taken for the re organization of the Indian army should involve a change in the manner in which the first appointments will be made. I think the question of first appointments, and that of the discipline and reorganization of the army afterwards, are distinca questions, and that it is quite poss • ible to deal with the one without touching the other. Now, wiAl regard to the financial part of the quet ton connected with India, to which the right hon, gentleman has referred, I think I can heat satisfy the wishes of hon. members by reading an extract, which I have re ceived from the East India House. That extract states t hat, "The Indian Loan Act conferred the power of borrowing Which has been already used to the extent of 4,1e.1,000 Leaving yet available the power of borrowing £3,570,000 Add, India Bonds :—Unissued portion of 7,000,00 d/. May be issued to replace those noti fied for discharge Ditto, to replace those now depo sited with Bank of England, which will be available on loan being paid off in October, 1858 1,000.000 653,900 2, f 7u, y . `eo V✓ May be borrowed on debentures and bonds £ 6,368,500 Toe disbursements of the Hume Treasury to the 31st of January 184, in excess of the present cash balance , anz estimated at £5,172,200 " The means of th'o Home Treasury are theref , re estimated to be more than adequate to meet the disbursements until flat session, without including the sums that may be realised for Court's bills on India, or from the sale of Exchequer bills and bonds now in hand (1,598,9001.) ,` In this estimate the receipts from railway companies aro not included." (FI- a , hear) From a consideration of those figures, wh•ch de not ineoude the rec-ipt , from railway companies, I think ie will to found that •he statement which I have to make in anseer to the right hon. gentleman is satis fectory so far as the financial part of tee question is con cerned. (Hear, hear.) I now come to the question which the right hon. gentleman has put to me in refer ence to the proclamation which he is of opinion it would be desirable to issue when the transfer of the govern - (tient of India to the Crown has been completed. In reply to the right hon, gentleman's observations upon that point, I can nely say that, both on account of the importance of the occasion and also to guard against runconstruction, I think that th t transf,4 ought to be in stone manner f virally notified to the people of India. (Hear, hear.) So far as our interference with the •el gien of the natives is carmen - red, I shall content myself with observing that there is in a recent despatch Lord Edenborough's, dated the 13th of April, a pas 'age which I shall quote, simply because it expresses in language clear , r and more forcible than any to which I could give utterance my own feelings and that of the Government of which I am a member upon the subject. (The noble lord then read an extract from the deseateh in qu etion, stating that the Government would be gut •ed by a pone% of neutrality and good faith in re ference to matters affecting the religion of the natives of India, and most earnestly calling upon all the authorities in India not to afford the slightest cause for the suspicion that that policy had undergone or would undergo any change.) (Hear, hear.) T. ose are the opinions of her Majee present advisers. (Hear, hear.) That pas sage expresses sentiments in which I fully concur, and I deem it highly desirable that, whether by proclamation or by some other means, the fullest assurance should be elven to the natives of Italia that the change which is about to take place in the Government of that country is not intended to involve any change in the policy of the Government. (Hear, hear) With regard to the man ner in which tire announcement in question ought to be made, I may be permitted to say that I do not think it is usual to put, as it were, into the mouth of the Gover nor-General of India the words in which it should be couched, without leaving to him any discretion as to the modification or withholding altogether of any particnlar form of expression. That is a point which yet remains under ihe consideration of the Govirament ; but I may say that my own individual impression is that the most advisable course to take with respect to it would be to state in general terms to Lord Canning that which we wish ti be done, leaving it to his own discretion to use such language as he may deem expedient. (Hear.) My ans eer to the question of the right horogentleman on this point therefore is, that there will be an aunouncemeut of the transfer of the Government of India from the Company to the Crown,and that due care will be taken to assure the people of that country that the change is not meant to in terfere with their ideas or habits in regard to matters of religious belief. (Cheers.) Mr. SPOONER thought that the answer which the noble lord bad just given to the question which had been put to him by the right hon. gentleman opposite in refe rence to the issue of a proclamation was one which must be looked upon as being of considerable importance. The noble lord stated that neutrality in matters of religion was the principle upon which her Majesty's Ministers were prepared t o b ase th e f uture governmen t o f I n dia. i Now, f by the word " neutrality" the noble lord meant that no attempt would be made to compel the natives of that country to become converts to Christianity, to s uch a policy he could not of jest. But if by the nee of that term it was intended to be conveyed to the people of India that it was a matter of indifferenc e to a Christian Government whether idolatry still continued to prevail in a larg- portion of her Majesty's dominion or not, then from the expediency of adopting such a course he must beg to express his dissent. He had heard the noble lord the member t r Tiverton on a former occasion give ut terance to the conviction that our Indian empire had been given to us not for the mere gratification of our ambition, and to enable r ifferent members of the com munity to enter upon a field where they might amass f onunes, but fir higher and nobl r purposes. In that sentiment be fully concurred, and he should maintain that we had not acted in accordance with it in manifest ing our "neutrality" by paying for the maintenance and encourageeneut of idolatrous practices—a sin Of which, be bad been informed, we were not even at the present moment entirely clear. He was afraid the speech of the noble lord was calculated to create some .eisapprebension with respect to a subject beyond 3 11 ethers the most important, and he could not refrain Irons stating it to be his opinion that while we declared that we were prepared to pursue the policy of not cons. pelting the natives of India to become converts to Chris tianity, we should not shrink from p: ocleiraing the Chris teen religion to be the right one, and from setting before them the truth in the best and least offensive manner in which we coul ! do so—thus taking that course by which this country might become the honoured instills met of carrying out Christianity in conjunction with Christian eiviliz rtion. (Hear.) Mr. ROEBUCK said that nothing but a sense of public duty could induce him to enter into such a thorul subject as that which was involved in religious discus sion. The example had, however, been set to him by the hon. gentleman who had just spoken, and acting oa the principle which bad been laid down in a despatch of Lord E lenborough—namely, that as private men we ought not to do that as public men which as public men we sOould condemn—he should merely observe that he felt assured we should secure more beneficial results in the case of the people of India by conducting our pro ceedings in their regard in accordance with the general. principles of justice, than by resorting to a policy 01 I iproselytising or missionarising in that country. (Hear.)r Mr. KINNAIRD also regretted that the despatch c Lord Ellenborough should have been referred to, as t might be misunderstood by the country, and it certainly: did not agree with what had been stated by the noble ear; at the head of the Government. (Hear.) That noble ea t dis incly stated that he wished to carry out in India the policy which when at the head of the Colonial-office he carried out in Ceylon, and entirely to disconnect the, Government of this ceuetry with the maintenance 01 idolatrous worship in that country. That was quite con,' trary to what had fallen from the noble lord the Preev dent of the Board of Control. He (Mr. Kinnaird) quite, agreed that the authority of the Government ought ne t to he brought to bear on matters of religion—(hear) but the proper course was not neutrality but toleratio n of all religions. Cbristian converts were as much eh" tided to protection and employment as any other person —(hear)—but the complaint was that in India the Christians had not that fair and eqoal justice which was extended to all other sects, and now they were told there was to be no change in that respect. Tha t statement would not be very satisfactory to the country' He regretted that the question had been mooted , for during the whole of the discussions upon tl ie home government of India he bad carefully abstaine d from bringing it before the house, but as it had been raised he could onl, express his regret that the noble bird had not made a statement as plain and dietinc% erg that which had been made by the noble earl at the hem' of the Government. (Hear, hear ) Mr. BOWYER could not understand what it was the hon. member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner) wanted. There wero already three Protestant bishoprlel in I n di a , b u t th e h on . mem b er th oug ht th e Governme nt influence should be used to propagate Christianity 10 teat country. Mr. SPOONER—I never said anything of the kind. Mr. BOWYER thought the hon. gentleman had Bali the Government ought t o s h ow a d es i re f or th e s pread 0 Christianity—that it should use all its moral influence' but not force, f or th a t purpose. B u t t h ere was a preli: urinary difficulty which the hon. gentleman bad not coot eidered. Wh a t ki n d o f Ch r i s ti ani ty was t o be tanght, o (Hear, and laughter.) The hon. gentleman no dou bt considered him (11r. Bowyer) to be little better than ! Hide idolater—(laughter)—and the hon. member b i e . , hied him (Mr. Gilpin), although not an idolater, handy be received by the hon. member for North Wa r. wicleshire as a Christian. Therefore, before requiring • Government to use its influence for the propaeati?n Christianity it would be better to decide what Christie pity was meant. (Hear.) There was one point tiO o ° , which he should wish to receive some information. the Direct dominion of India was to be handed over to the Crown, he wished so know whether there would 1 3 1 he some style or title added to those possessed by the Crown to show such dominion ? To do so would be accordance with historical precedents, as in the case ° Wales, which having been added to the royal docniniont was given in perpetuity as a style to the e dent son 0 the Severaien. When a large portion of France fe ll into the hands of the Engli s h S , vere i gn the style 0, ! King of France was adopted, a nd aga i n , w hen by the ce mon of James I. to the English throne both coentioed came under one rub r the King became ruler of the Unit e Kingdom of Great Britain. It might be urged as 011 , objection, that if India were recognised among the sty le ° of the Sovereign the colonies world also wish to be 1 1 recognised. He did not conside r th a t wou ld b e a O h " objection, as it had never been the eastern to adopt thea style of a colony unless acquired by conquest. He bor e , so me means would be d evise d o f i nc l u di ng I n di a alma" the tWes of Royalty borne by her Majesty. Col. SYKES raid the declaration of the noble lord would, he believ e d, d o more t o re m o ve the dangerous i distrust which now p erva d e d th e m i n ds of the people of India than the most brilliant and continuous successes i ; our arms. He congratulated the noble lord upon hi s _ l ' 6 claration, upon his liberal feelings, his enlarged vie as and his generous sentiments. (Hear ) From por:el e experience he could deny the existence of any pret usL e r against COrist'an converts in India lie had on ft , r 13 : 130 occasions given instances of their employment in rre,c l pub lic service and of other advantages being n • -riah l l upon them. The principle in India had been inv. _ it to select men for the public service according to t he ' capacity for the duties they were required to perfoslVst, quite irrespective of their religions views or sentimer4 I s b o o a l s o been the object t f the Indian Gevernrce'S:e for many years to separate itself entirety from idolatro ta ls; usages and practices, It had given up the Pilgri m- oat a t Altaliabad and had abandoned the lands it held fr "ig Juggernaut, valued at three lac of rupees. It v' eventually entirely disconnect itself from the tnatuntseij nance of idolatrous worship, but it could not do B° l7le et once. He repeated that the declaration of the 0 lord would do more for us iu India than anything I !: ie ., tad eeen spoken during the whole progress of the eussion in that house. (Hear.) • fact i°ll Mr. GILPIN expressed his unqualified satis emac i With the w armer in which the question bad been tr .. * Viv a ,. by e noble lord. (Hear, hear ) Those who trulyeti sired the spread of Christianity in India would v/ l it ieo see Christianity kept free from tho-e horrible attovivote which, whether ceinmitted by black men or by 4,d en, were u terly fmeign to its nature, and only P o ols tor a fair field for those who were disposed o Christianity lot its own sake. Ho could not iselP ' I