The Sun. — London, England, 1829-04-03 00:00:00

.alien o'clock to move the !second reading of the Catholic Belief Bill, and addr•seea :l e a fle e ee as ftellows My Lords—lt is now 'le 'hut) so move rite reading of this Bill a second thee, end to esplain to yon the anninde on which I recommend-el this measure to his Majesty. In doing so, I may he wider the necessity of occupying a Larger portion of your time and attention upon this occa sion than I have been in the habit of doing. But I assure you, my Lords, that it is not at all my intention to take up one instant of your valuable time with respect to myself or my own conduct in this transaction, any further than to express my regret that I should differ in opinion on this subject with so many of those for whom I entertain the highest personal respect and regard. My Lords, however, I must say that I have considered the part which I have taken upon this subject as the performance of a public duty incumbent upon me, and I must say that no private regard, no respect for the , opinions of any Noble Lords, could have induced me to depart from that course which I have considered it my duty to follow upon this occasion. —(Hear, hear, hear. )- 1 must say likewise, that comparing my own opinion with that of Others upon this subject, I have had, during the period I have been in office, opportunities of forming a judgment upon this subject which others have not had,—(Hear, hear, hear. )—and I must claim some confidence from them that I should not have given the opinion I have, if I had not been decidedly per suaded that those opinions were just.—(Hear, and clieers.) My Lords, the point which I shall first bring under your consideration is the state of Ireland. I know that by some it is considered that the state of Ireland has nothing to do with this question, that it is a subject which ought to he left entirely out of the consideration of it. My Lords, it is thus that Ireland has been disturbed for the last thirty years, and to these disturbances we have - been accustomed, and that it does not at all alter the circumstances of the caseas they have hitherto appeared to the House. My Lords, it is perfectly true that Ireland has been disturbed dur ing the long period I have stated, but, my Lords, there have been circumstances of considerable ag gravation, during the last one or two. years that have passed. Political circumstances have caused in a considerable degree that aggravation ; but besides that, my Lords, I must say, that although I have no poi tire legal proof of the fact, I have every reason to believe there has been an organization, a considerable organiza tion of the people, for the purposes of mischief. My Lords, this organization seems to me to be proved not only by the declarations of those who formed and managed it, but likewise by the effect which it has produced in the election of churchwardens throughout the country, and the circumstances attending the election of the county of Clare in the last year, and the circumstances which foliowed that election, and the proceedings of a gentleman who went at the head of a body of men to the North of Ireland, an 1 the simultaneous proceedings of a variety of bodies of men at Templernore, Clare, Clon mel, end other places, and the proceedings of another gentleman in the King's County, and in all by the Catholic Association. In all these circumstances it is quite obvious to me there was an organization, and a direction from some superior authority. My Lords, tide organization has certainly produced a state of society in Ireland which we hate not heretofore witnessed, and an aggravation of all the evils which before afflicted that unfortunate country. My Lords, later in the year, a considerable town was attacked in the middle of the night by a body of people who came from a neighbouring Barony, the town of Ore. It was attacked with arms, and the persons who attacked it were thriven out with arms by the inhabitants of the town. This is a state of things which I believe your Lordships will admit can hardly exist in a country. And, later in the year still, a similar event occurred in another town. The Catholic Associa tion deliberated on the means to be adopted, and the pro priety of adopting sonic course to allay the feeling between, Catholic and Protestsnt. Is it possible, I would ask, that we can believe those feelings exist ? That sup posing those measures had been carried into execution, which X believe it was in their power to do, is it possible to believe that those who could cease those feelings, would likewise cease to carry into execution the contracts they had entered into ? Will any snan say that a people in this situation are not verging towards that state in which it would he impossible to expect from them the duty of jurymen, and to decide upon cases for the pro tection of his Majesty's subjects. My Lords, this is the state of society to which I wish to draw your attention, and for which it is necessary that Parliament should pro vide a remedy. My Lords, before I proceed to consider what these remedies should he, I wish just to show you what the effect of this state of society was on the King's prerogative. My Lords, his Majesty could not create a peer, and the reason he could not was this— his Majesty's servants could not venture to recommend to him to incur the risk of an election in another part of the country, the risk which might attend any accident which might have occasioned bloodshed. My Lords, much a disaster might have produced an immediate civil war in the country. Not only so, but I confess, I had the strongest ob jection to give another triumph to the Catholic Association. Well, we are told, why don't you carry into execution the law? The law of Ireland as it is in England. Why, in all I have said there was no resistance of the law. The troops did not happen to be immediately on the spot, and there was no resistance of the law, because there was no order given for the populace to disperse. There were no troops, I believe, except in the case of the processions into towns. There was no opposition to the King's troops. and there was no instance in which the law could be carried into execution. When we hear of gentlemen re proaching the Government for not carrying into execu tion the law in Ireland as it was carried into exe cution in England, the observation of itself shows that the state of things in Ireland is not well known.— ( Hear, hear, and cheers. )--The truth of the matter is, my Lords, that in Ireland, when the law was carried into execution in 1819, a large body of persons as sembled for an illegal purpose. They resisted the order of the Magistrates to disperse, and having resisted that order, the Magistrates gave directions to the troops to disperse them. But in these cases there is no in stance of the kind. There was no order given to disperse, nor could any order be given. No Magistrate appeared, and if there had been one there were no troops to dis perse the people. This is the state of Ireland, and it is impossible to have Magistrates at every spot and in every corner, in order to prevent these outrages, which are a disgrace to the country and to the Administra tion. My Lords, it appears clearly that neither the law nor the means of Government could enable them to put an end to this state of things. It was necessary, therefore, to come to Parliament. Now, my Lords, let us see for a moment what chance there was of providing a remedy for this state of things by coming to Parliament. We most certainly all know very well that the opinion of the majority in another place is that the remedy for this state of things in Ireland is a re moval of the disabilities 7 -(Loud eheers)—affecting his Majesty's Catholic subjects.—(hear, hear.)—We might have gone and asked Parliament to have enabled us to put down the Catholic Question, but what probable chance had we of prevailing upon Parliament to pass such a Bill without being prepared to come forward and state, that we are ready to consider the whole condition of Ireland,—(Hear, hear, hear,)—with a view to apply a remedy to that which Parliament stated to he the cause of the disease. My Lords, suppesing that Parliament had given us the Bill to put down the Catholic Association, I ask your Lordship.. would such a law under such a law as we passed last year be a remedy for the state of Ire land—( hear, hear)—and in the state of things which I have already described to you as existing in Ireland ? Would it do any one thing towards putting an end to that organization which I have stated to your Lordship., exists? Would it do any thing towards putting an end to the mischiefs which are the consequences of thet organization ? or towards giving you the means of making the state of things as they exist now in Ireland better without some permanent measure being adopted to put an end to what exists in Ireland ? But, my Lords, it is said, if that would not do, let us proceed to blows. Why, my Lords, what is meant by proceeding to blows is civil war—clearly civil war. Now, I believe that a free Government must be prepared to carry into execution the laws of the country by the force placed at its disposal, in case that it should be found neces sary, and above all to oppose resistance to the law in case the disaffected or ill-disposed are inclined to resist the sentence of the law or its authority. But in this case, MN' Lords, you will hear in mind, I have already stated to your Lordships that there was no resistance of the law.—(Hear, hear.)—l go further, and will say lam certain that this state of things bordering upon civil war, being attended by nearly all its evils, that the state of things existing in Ireland for the last year end a half,must have endured much longsrto the great injury of the country. If such be the ease, is it not the duty of those who are at the head of the state of things to take care and prevent any measure which would enable that state of things to gain ground? Those parties know, as well as tdo,-they are not strong enough to wrestle with the King's Government, protected as it is by the las,-. lit 118.4 nsglected to present them when the time of tl,e louse was unoccupied, he hoped that they would with mold them to some more convenient opportunity, which could ariee for their consideration before the passing of the Bin • — (Hear.)—He also hoped that they would not he leterred by artifices of this nature from proceeding to the discussion which was fixed for that evening, and which was most anxiously expected by the public.—(Hear). The Earl of ELDON hoped that what he was then "Rt. , say would have the effect of putting en end, both bathe Nobl e E ar l' s d es i re t o fi n i s h t h e I. t ter w hi c h he d cominenced to read, and to the Noble Baron's motion t o adjour n th e H ouse. H e b egge d to i n f orm t h e N o bl e , i. , ,.. 1, that h e b a •l a pet i t i on to present f rom t h at part o f the country in which the gentleman lived who considered b i Ttvelf to h ave b een i n j ur i ous l y treate d, an d t h at i t wou ld Competent for the Noble Earl upon that occasion to : "let %ipso the explanation which was now objected to. I le Noble Earl might, however, be pardoned for his irv 7tilarity, as the House had of late permitt e d such irre- V'mariir much too frequently;- and if his two Noble ods from Cornwall—one the steady opponent of eman cipeo ton, the other the ctithusiastic advocate of it—would exc use him for saying it, it would have been as well if they had read elsewhere the letters which they had re ceived from the Land's-End.—(A laugh.)—The Noble Earl who had spoken last knew him well enough to be aware that he was not likely to disgrace himself or his character, by endeavouring to produce any unnecessary de la,' in the discussion of an important measure like the pre "'it. He w as sure t h at t h e No b le Earl, notwithstand i ng what : had occurre d yesterday, would not conceive that lie 1114 cleaved to cr ea t e any unnecessary d e l ay b y d e li ver i ng in 0 0 mans) petitions te-day. The fact was, that the last ' l 'm/ heereas in the House, he had brought down the ‘e a r t y petition. ; which h e h i d j ust presente d . P et i t i ons , it W ' __. 4 : s well known, must be p resente d at t h e s i tt i ng o f th e )!Se. Th e O r d er of the Day was moved at an early lour . yesterday, and he would vow state why he did not present those petieioni after it was read. Ile had these petitions with him, and he did not present them because there were only firer Peers in the House. He never would act such a pert to those of his fellow-subjects who in trusted him with their petitions, as to read them to the House when there were only four Peers present, and when he could not make those four Peers listen to what he might say. He certainly had delayed the presentation of them till t ' ' ' * to-night: : but if he had wished to present them for the purpose of creating delay, he should have taken a very different course—lie should have brought down three ti , nes the number of petitions, and he could assure . the House that he now had that number safe at home. He could assure the House that lie never would disgrace him so far as to read his petitions to four Lords only. If a ny petitioners expected him to do so, he would tell them to take their petitions from him, and to find eonielioily el ." to present them in that manner. Ile begged pardon l , e a r trespassing so long upon the House ; but be trusted Chet, alter wh a t h e h a d sa id, th e N o bl e L or d would with "raw his motion for adjournment, and the Noble Earl w ould not persist in reading his letter at present, as there 1 " 5 no reason for pressing the matter to-night, and as he should have a petition to present, procured from the same part of the country, under the same auspices, which would b ring the whole matter fairly under the consideration of the House.. Lord L YTTLEToN , L or d R EDESDALE, an d t h e E ar l o f MaLetesecar, rose together, amid the calls of their re spective friends. • Lord LYTTLETON apprehended that he was entitled to he heard first. He could assure their Lordships that he did not intend to detain them long. He perfectly agreed With his Noble Friend near him as to the propriety of going forthwith to the order of the day. That Was not, however, the object for which he rose. He rose to affirm the correctness of what he bad formerly asserted on thin "übieet.—(Loud cries of " Order.")—Well, lie would °lily say that he was willing to meet any inquiry into the truth of the avermea:s which lie bad made, and that he 'cc, confident that he could make every tittle of them good Ie their Lordships.—(Order. ) Lord REDESDALE said, that though he had several r 3- titiens to present, he had not brought them with him to , , lie should present them on some future occasion. He merely said this to show that he was not desirous of s naring any factious or vexatious delay for the purpoer of deferring the d:scussion upon this Bill.—(Hear.) The Earl of MALMESBURY was most anxious . to le arn whether the observations of the Noble Earl (Gxey) a Pon the motives which had led to the different proposals for delay, were intended to apply to the motion which he h ad made the other night for the postponement of the ee %rid reading of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill. Earl GREY—No, no. The Earl of MALMESBURY—That declaration re ,:„ 'loved his mind from considerable anxiety, for it appeared t o 'aim that the Noble Earl had accused him of seeking de ' l ly for other objects than those which lie had professed. N on', he had the deepest respect for the petitions of the People, but he would not, for the sake of procuring them, condeecend to appeal to their passions.—(Hear, hear.) — He had made his motion for the further postponement of the second reading of the Catholic Relief Bill from a regard , to the dignity and character of their Lordships' proceed ings. D:ci not their Lordships see the inconvenience to which they had exposed themselves by their extraorsiinary precipitancy?—(Hear, hear.) Only one day had elapsed since the first reading of that Bill ; and what was that day? One of those days on which, by courtesy and the wholesome practice of Parliament, Ministers were allowed and expected to be absent from their places in both Houses. He had moved for certain returns yesterday, because he knew that no objection could he made to them ; but it was generally supposed, and be thought the regul ition a most wise and excellent one, that no business should be transacted OR Wednesday.—(hear, hear.) He begged pardon for thus addressing them, but the expressions of the ‘ . Noble Earl were strong. He would never flinch from avowing the objects which lie sought to attain by his public ' • eonduct.—( Hear, bear.) If he bad entertained such in tentions as the Noble Earl imputed to some persons, he e • would not have hesitated to say so.—( Hear, bear.) He Was convinced, however, that the Noble Earl applied his observations to others, and not to him.—(Hear.) Earl GREY wished to be heard in explanation—" I can assure the Noble Earl," he said, " with the utmost truth and sincerity, that no man is less disposed than I am to cast aspersions on the purity of his motives.—(Hear.) —I have had too long a knowledge of his character, too long as experience of his conduct, to doubt the truth of his as- Isertion, that he is actuated by nothing but a sense of duty and a regard to the dignity of our proceedings.—(llear, h ear.) I therefore disclaim, and I feel hound to d o it, an y design to throw the slightest imputation on the conduct of the Noble Earl.—(Hear, hear.)—l declared myself to he against delay, because I knew that it would be used, not by the Noble Earl, or by any of your Lordships, but by Persona out of doors, to inflame and irritate the public In 'rids I said so distinctly.—(Cries of " No.") —I think I said 55 ; hut if any of your Lordships misund erstood me, " ea t glad to have this opportunity to set myself r i g ht.— (Hear.)—•l hope that no Peer will join in any such at tempts as I denounced ; but that such attempts have been made, and are still making, to excite the passions of the people to a degree which, if successful, will be most dis ailerons, I did maintain, and to whatever imputations it may expose nee, I will still continue to maintain.—(Hear.) At the same time, I must again repeat, that I had not any intention to impute the slightest blame to the Noble Earl."—(Hear.) Lord ROLLE was ready to withdraw his motion for adjournment, if the House should prefer that line of conduct. Lord FARNHAM had severed petitions to present and should have presented them yesterday, hut he understood from the highest authority in that House that petitions would be received this day. He had ten petitions to pre tent, and seven times that number waiting in the robing room, He had heard it said that the better way was to divide upon the question, and debate it after, but he thought the sentiments of the people should be heard be.. fore the House decided on the principle of the Bill. Lord BEAUCHAMP then presented several petitions in favour of concession. The Bishop of BRISTOL presented petitions from the county of Hereford, against the measure. Lord lIOWE presented petitions from Plynipton, Appleby, and other parts of the county of Leicester, in favour of the measure. Lord REDESDALE had a petition to present from toddington, signed by a lady, who opposed further con cessions to the Catholics. She hid signed it herself, having refused is permit any of her servants to add their llatiles to it. • Lord ROSEBERY presented several petitions in fa. tour of the meesure. Lord FARNHAM presented several petitions against concession from the county of Cork. The Marquis of CONYNGHAM presented a petition front the Catholics of Ennis, for the removal of civil dis abilities,- The Duke of NEWCASTLE presented a number of petitions; aeainst further coneessien, and - produced a letter by which it appeared that an order had been issued by the Government forbidding persona holding situations unc et . the Crown to sign petitions. , Several other Noble Lords presented pe titions, both for, ' and ageing the Catholic clainee sefeeta wi . _ THE ROMAN CATHOLIC:RELIEF BILL. The Doke of WELLINGTON rote a t s q uarter before (Hen, hear.) —They knew wen flo•s. would have bsen the first victims of that resits, sure ; but knowing theta and knowing as I do. that they sac seneible e men, perfectly sensible of the me ter;als with which th e y were working, I have not the sligliteet doubt this state of things mieht have existed for years; and no opportunity weidd bare been afferded of putti ng down that which reek to snob disastrous consequenese. --( Hear. )—Day t. osls, I am one Of those stain probably have passed a larger period of their lives in war than most men, and probably in civil war, and I must say, if I could avoid, by any sacrifices whatever, even one month of civil war—(hear) —in that country to which I was attached, I would sacrifice my life to do it—(cheers),—because I say that there is nothing that destroys and prevents prosperity so much as civil war. The hand of man is raised against his brother, against his neighbour—the son against his father—the servant against his master— and that home which was once his delight, be comes confusion and destitution. Yet these means, my Lords, are the resources to which we must look, this re sistance is the best thing which we could have looked to, to have put an end to this state of things in Ire land, if we had not taken the opportunity of bringing forward the measures for which I say I am responsib'e. But my Lords, let us look a little further at this. If civil war is so bad when occasioned by resist ance to the Government, if it is so bad as I have stated it, and so much to be avoided, how much more is it to he avoided when we are to arm the people in order that one part may concur with one thing, and be the means of exciting others against them. I am sure that there is not a man that hears me whose blood would not shudder at the proposition if made to him. At the same time this is the course which would have had to have been adopted, if we had continued as we were last year. But I entreat your Lordships not only to look at it in that view, hot let us revert to what passed on a former occasion. I am old enough to recollect the rebels of 1798, I was not employed in Ireland then, but in another part at a distance ; but if I am not mistaken, the Parliament went up to the Lord Lieutenant with an unanimous address. I believe they walked up to him, beseeehing his Excellency to take every means in his power to put down that internal rebellion, and promising support—their full support, to carry the measure into execution. My Lord Lieutenant did take those measures, awl suc ceeded in putting down the rebellion. Well, my Lords, what happened in the very next Session ? The Government proposed to put an end to the Parliament— (Hear, hear,)—to unite the two kingdoms, to form a legislative onion between them, for the pur pose of proposing this veiy measure—(Hear, hear.) — and in point of fact the very first measures proposed after this legislative union, after those successful measures to put down this rebellion, was this very measure which I am now putting to your Lordships. Why then is it possible that Noble Lords could believe that supposing there was such a contest as that which I have anticipated, is it possible that Noble Lords could believe that such a contest could be carried on, much less be brought to a conclusion without these measures being insisted upon by one at least, if not by both Houses? My Lords, I am certain when you look at the division of opinion that prevails in both Houses, when you look at the division of opinion which prevails in every family both here and in Ireland, in every family, I say, of the highest eminence, down to the lowest in this country, the division of opiuion which pre vails among Protestants of Ireland on this important subject, I am convinced you will see that there will be a vast difference between a contest carried on now, and that which was carried on on the former occasion. —(hear, hear, hear.)—l beg you will re collect that on a recent occasion there was a Protesaint declaration of the sentiments of Ireland. As I said be fore, the Parliament of 1798 was unanimous, I believe, with the exception of one or two Gentlemen in the House of Commons. ltirpon a recent occasian, there were seven Marquises, 27 Earls, a vast number of Peers of other ranks, and 2,000 Protestant Gentlemen of property in the country, who signed the delaration stating that it was absolutely necessary to Ireland that measures such as I have proposed should be carried into effect. Under these circumstances this contest would be carried on in a manner totally different to what it was before. But is it possible that we can believe that Parliament would allow such a contest? Is it possi ble to believe that Parliament, having this state of things before it that this House seeing what the opinion of the other House of Parliament was, seeing what the opinion of this large number of Protestants to Ireland was, seeing what the opinion of nearly every statesman who for the last 40 years had spoken on the subject was on the question, that this House would continue to oppose itself to the measure calculated to settle the question. My Lords, it is absolutely impossible that this could go on any longer without some increasing difficulty brought upon the country. But, my Lords, we should look a little to what the benefit is to be derived to any cue class of society by continuing those disabilities—(hear, hear, hear,)—and adopting that worst of courses which is to be attended with all the evils I have alluded to. We are told that it is to preserve the principle of the Consti tution of 1668—(Hear, hear)---that the Act of 1688 permanently excluded Roman Catholics front Parliament ; and that they having been then permanently excluded from Parliament, it is necessary to incur all those evils in order to keep up the bond which was then entered into. New I wish very much that Noble Lords would take the trouble I have taken, to look for themselves how that matter stands—( Hear,)—with respect to this permanent exclu sion of Roman Catholics from Parliament. My Lords, in the Bill of Rights there are some things permanently enacted, and which I sincerely hope will be permanent— those are the liberties of the people—(Hear, hear)—for the better security of Protestantism that the person on the throne of this kingdom shall be a Protestant—and that he shall not be married to a Papist.—( Hear, hear, hear.)—Then there is an oath of allegiance to be taken from all those front whom it shall be required, which is permanent ; there is also the oath of obedience and the oath of supremacy, but there is no declaration against transubstantiation ; and it is an oath of allegiance different from that which is to he taken according to any existing Act of Parliament. Now when it is said that that Act is to be permanent, this, I think, shows what it is. With respect to the oaths to be taken by Members of Parliament, I beg your Lordships to observe that those oaths—that the declaration against transub stantiation, is not at all the act of William the Third, hut that it is the act of the 30th of Charles the Second. During the reign of Charles the Second there were certain oaths imposed, first upon the Dissenters from the Church of England, and next to exclude Roman Catholics by the 25th and 30th of Charley the Second.— At the period of the Revolution, when King William came, he thought proper to extend the basis of his Government, and he repealed the oaths affecting the Dissenters from the Church of England, imposed by the 30th of Charles the Second, and likewise the affirmative part of the Oath of Supremacy, which the Dissenters from the Church of England could not take. My Lords, that is the mystery of the alteration of those oaths by William the Third from the time of Charles the Second ; hut the re mainder of the oath could be taken by Dissenters though it could not be taken by Roman Catholics. The danger in respect to the Roman Catholics originated in the time of Charles the Second ; and the bond still existed in the time of William the Third ; but the oath was altered, because one of the great principles of the Revolution was to limit the ex clusions, and to extend the Constitution as far as pos sible. Therefore we have that principle of the Revo lution, as well as the principle I have before stated, re cognized by the Bill of Rights, and the permanent li berty of the people amply secured and provided for.— Now Noble Lords state that what they call the prin ciple of 168 S—that is to say, that those oaths excluding the Roman Catholics, are equally permanent with the Bill of Rights by which the Protestantism of time Crown is secured. Why, if any Noble Lords will read the words of the Act, and I have them here should they wish to see them, they will find that the difference between that and the real fact is just the difference between that which is per manent, and that which is not permenent. It is stated that the Protestantism of the Crown should last for ever—that those liberties are secured for ever, and as far as the oaths are concerned they are en acted at the conclusion, but there is not one word said about how long they are to exist.—(Hear, hear.) —Well, what follows? The next Act we have is the Act of Union with Scotland ; and what does that Act of Parliament say ? Why, that the oaths to be taken by Members of Parliament are to be the same as laid down by the first of William and Mary until Par liasoent shall otherwise direct.—(Near.)—Now, this is what is called a permanent Act of Parliament—a per naanent provision for all future periods to exclude Roman Catholics from all political power.—(Hear. )e-- aly Lords, I would beg to observe, that if the Act which excludes Boman Catholics from seats in Parliament is per manent, there is another clause, I think it is the Sth section of the 10th chapter of the Act of the Ist of William and Marv, which requires Officers of the Army and Navy to take the Oaths—those very Oaths—previous to their aeceptance of office. Now I would ask, this clause being made in the first of William and Mary, if the act which exclu d e! Ilernan Catholics from nets in Parliament —if that be permanent, I should like to know whether the other wile not meant to be pen Daimt r I should like to ask the Noble and Learned Lords both on the woolsack and on the cross benches if the one act is permanent why the Ot not so ? Lords, the truth of the matter is, that the Parliament of Queen Anne, by the Act of Veion, tceograised the first relating to seats in Parliament, and the Noble Lord was quite right when he conceded that the -Ace of 1700 would pat an end to the 10th clause of the Bth chapter of the first of Williert and Mary. Then my Lords, if this exclusion, if tide principle of 1683, as it it; called, is not permanent, if it is recognized not to be permanent, not only by the Act of Union with Scotland, but likewise by tile Act of Union with Ireland, I would ask your Lordships whether you are ndt dt Pherty now to • consider the expediency of repealing it altogether, in order to relieve the country from the inconveniences to which I have already a dverted—whether yon are not called upon to renew the state of the representation of Ireland— whether ou are not called upon to see whether, even sup posing it . were permanent, it is fit for Parliament to remain as it has been for some period, groaning under a Popish influence exercised by the Priests over elcetions, and whether it is not right to make an arrangement which shall hare for its objects not only to settle this question but to relieve the country from the influences and the inconve niences' to which I have adverted. My Lords, I have already stated the manner in which this arrangement works upon all the people of this country, but I wish particularly to attend to the manner in which it works on the Church ieself.—(Hear.)—My Lords, that part of the Church of England which is in Ireland, is in a very peculiar situation ; it is the church of the minority of the people, and at the came time, I believe, a more exemplary—a more pious, and at the Caine tinw a more learned set of men do not exist.—(Hear.) —My Lords, this Church certainly enjoys the affections of those whom it has sought to in struct in the same degree as their brethren in England merit, and I have no doubt they would shed the last drop of their blood in defence of their doctrine. —(Hear.)—But, my Lords, it is violence that its apprehended as likely to affect the interests of this Church. Now, I request the House to consider whether the Church can be better protected from violence by a Government— united inyarliament—united in sentiment with the people— or by a Government disunited in Parliament, and having the two Houses of Parliament distinctly divided amongst themselves? My Lords, every individual under the Go vernment is involved in the settlement of a question which will bring with it strengthto tile Government—strength and defence to every part of the country !—(Loud cheering.) —My Lords, having now gone through the general principles which have induced me to consider it desirable to bring forward this measure, I shall trouble you a short time longer, while I explain to your Lordships the provisions of the Bill. My Lords, the Bill is in itselt very simple. It concedes to the Roman Catholics the power of holding every office in the State unconnected with the administration of the affairs of the Church, and also conceding to them seats in Parliament. I beli'eve that it goes further, with respect to the conceesion of holding office, than the former measures which have been introduced to your House ; and I confess, my Lords, that the reason for which I have considered it my duty to make this larger provision is, that I have seen the con sequence of the Acts of 1782 and 1793-1 have seen that any restrictions upon concessions have only the effect of increasing evil, and of giving fresh power of mischief. I have therefore considered it my duty in making this concession, to make it as large—(Loud cries of heal )—as any reasonable man could expect, seeing clearly, that any thing which could have the effect of restriction, would only give fresh grounds of complaint—would afford no security to the state—and would tend to any thing but the peace and tranquillity of the country.—(Great cheering.)— In respect to seats in Parliament, my Lords, I have already stated to your Lordships what I think upon that subject. Ido not conceive, my Lords, that the concession of seats in Parliament to Roman Ca tholics can in any manner affect the interests of, or incon ,yenience the Church of England.—( Hear, hear.)—ln the first place, my Lords, I beg your Lordships to recollect, that when those Acts of the thirtieth of Charles the Second, and at the period of the Revolution, were enacted, it was not the Church that was is danger— it was the State.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.)—The State was in danger not because the Church was threatened— no, but because the Sovereign upon the throne was sue - pacted of Popery, and the successor to the throne was actually a Papist.—(Loud and continued cheering.)— My Lords, this system was adopted, because that was the danger that threatened the State, and not because the Church was in danger at all.—(Hear, hear.)—On the contrary, at that period, danger to the Church was ap prehended, not from the Roman Catholics, but from the IDissenters from the Church of England. I want to know when we read in the history of these times, of danger to the - Church, whether it was from the Roman Catholics the danger was apprehended? No, my Lords, I say it was from the Dissenters, and from the privileges granted to the Dissenters under the Acts of Parliament passed at the period of the Revolution.—(Hear, hear.) — Then I think it is not necessary for me to justify myself for having adopted this measure on account of any danger it causes to the Church from Roman Catholics coming into Parliament, as they were in Parliament previously to the 30th of Charles 11. Peers sat in Parliament up to that period, and were not obliged to take the oath of supremacy. We now require they should take the oath of allegiance, in which a great part of the oath of supre macy is included ; at least that part which refers to re strictions, and I must say, so far as that goes, instead of the Church being in danger, it is in better seeurity than as it was previous to the Act of the 30th of Charles the Second. But, I sly, what I contend for is, that for the last forty years, since it was probable the House of Stuart would become extinct—and above all, since the extinction of the House of Stuart, it has been the opinion of every considerate man in this country, that it is now time those laws should be repealed, and the necessity of which has been growing gradually from that time to this—and most certainly the period has now come when it is quite clear they can no longer exist.—(lmmense cheering.)— But I know there are are are many in this House, and in the country, and I confess I was of that opinion myeelf, who think that the State ought to have some teen rity for the Church against the Romau Catholic Clergy, besides the oaths imposed by those Acts of Parliament. But I now confess upon examining the question, and upon looking more than I had before done at the various Acts of Parliament by which the Church of England has been constituted, and upon the foundation on which it rests, I see that the State can have no security of a de scription which would at all increase the safety of the Church, or, moreover, that of the Crown of England. Now, in a few words I will explain myself upon that sub ject. I beg your Lordships to attend to me for a moment while I explain the situation, for instance, of the King of Prussia. The King of Prussia exercises the power he does over the Catholic Church in his various dominions, under different Concordats, entered into with the Pope. In Silesia, by a Concordat made with the House of Austria ; on the territories of the left side of the Rhine under a con cordat made with Buonaparte; and on the right banks of the Rhine under a concordat settled by the former Sovereigns of those countries. My Lords, each of those con cordate supposes that the Pope possesses that power which enables him at all times to command the sovereignty of those countries to eater into those treaties, but that is a point which we can never fear.—(Cheers.)—There is no person who has any power to compel such an arrange. roent from the King of this country.—(Cheers.)—My Lords, we must continue to keep our Sovereign clear of any such transactions—(tremendous cheering)—that has been accomplished hitherto, and yet we have had no security of the description required, not even a veto of one of the Bishops, as they are called, without re linquishing some part of the authority and dignity of the Sovereign ; and admitting that the Pope has some thing to compel.—(Loud cheers.)—Now, my Lords, we will suppose for a moment that the King should name the Bishop ; why if he named the Bishop he must give him a diocese. Now I should like to know in what part of Ireland or England the King could obtain a spot in which consistently with his oath be could name a Bishop, or give that Bishop a diocese.—(Hear, hear. ) The King has sworn to preserve the Church, and the Bishops and the Clergy committed to their charge, with their privileges, their churches, their people, and every thing belonging to them.—( Hear, hear, hear. )--Now, consistently with that oath, how could he appoint a Bishop of the Roman Catholic persuasion ? even if he were to appoint could there not boa greater loss to the State than there could he gained by such a step on the part of his Majesty? Then there is another security which has been thought of as desirable to have—namely, that of obtaining a ~knowledge of the correspondence with Rome, and of super vising that correspondence with a view to prevent any com munication which should be inconsistent with the securityof the Crown of this country. Upon that point also, I must ipy that I feel the greatest objection to involving this Government in such terms. That correspondence we are told told turns upon spiritual affairs ; but I will 'suppose that it turns for instance upon the question of excommunication—why, my Lords, has the Pope and hie Majesty, or the Secretary of State acting tinder the direction of his Majesty, any power to Make any such law ? What then would be the result of it ? To hue pose any such security would go, I apprehend, to a hi - oriel): of time Constitution of this country, and render it quite impossible for your Lordships to consent to it. —(Hear. ) • —lf lt were cfLeted, it would do illorOlinjury to the constitution of the Chttab titan t itre thing that tan the serious attention Of the then Government. ..These° . be done by Roman Catholieeliaing admitted in the manner amnia that these Aeti'wcre necessary, and.that they were ..• now proposed. My Lords, ielommunicatiens with Roma proper for the t prOtetion of the Monarch on the fhronct are sufficiently provided lot already by the laws of this By the prineslarkte Revolution of . 1699 no person eoontry. Time l i ewe reoardifi that ere suffieiett ; but if who profeesed Itreakan Catholic religion could be King thaV hh ohne-eh—if she coat:net of the etersens of these retard's, nor could the King marry a Roman Ca whose conduct thaie btottoraat intended to replete ehould tholie QoWatt. The King was bound by the Corona be euch as to render nctiataami‘ alies irtteeference of . Govern- tion Olen on taking which he swears that he trill , , , trent, this very mee 4 snre which your nenatemptt nave b e- are the laws of the country executed with justice. fore yott .teteeld enable your Lordship to interiette in tech and mercy, and he furtlaer swears that he will maintain a way and in such a ralatitter, as not only fully to ineuto the Laws of God to the utmost of his power, and the the objects of the meastire, but to gitti the fortner Acts Proteraont religion as established by law. How, said the the full effect of thei: :provisions. My Letatle, another Bee. Prelate was he to do this—was it by hie persona I paiot Of severity proposed - is against the eetabliehmeni of actions? No; but by his councils, and .by his Minie- Jtsuits. My LOrd#, if Toner Lordships atiOnlOole to the tern, who were respensible for the course Which Act of 1'790, your Lordship will ortoboblrlaae that at that they might think proper to advise him to adopt. He wonla time, as well as this, it WAS not possible to ra.fate laws which put to their Lordships a ease, and he would put an - - any other man might not drive a coach and four through. treme case, as it was for the purpose of illustrating. lie My Noble and Learned Friend (Eldon) will excuse me for woohl suppose that the King were to be surrounded saying, that, notwithstanding the pains he took to form that by none btit Roman Catholics. --(Cries of hear, hear, law, yet it has been proved that, since the Act of 1791, there h e ar.)—lle hegg,ed their Lordships to remember that is net the slightest doubt that large establishments of Jesuits he was putting an extreme ease. If the King! have been formed, not only in Ireland, but in this country.—. were thus surrounded, he would be placed in a situation ire (Hear, hear.)—The measeres new proposed to be adapted which he would be incapable of fulfilling time obligations of under this Act, we may hope will preserve the country his oath. Now then, how could any advisers, who could from the establialunent of other houses of that deseription not enter into his views of the true profession of the Gospel, without oppression.--without injury to any body, but by and who did not believe in the Protestant religion as by law degrees to put an end to that elms of people. tMy Lords, established, assist the King in that capacity ?—(Hear.)-- there is no man living more sensible thati lam of the The King governed the country by means of his Ministers absolute necessity of carrying into execution that pert —by means of his officers in the army and navy—and by of the measure. I entertain no doubt whatever that if I:means of the civil authorities. They were the parties that part of the measure were nut carried into execution, through whom he wee to maintain the Protestant Church we should very soon see this part of the country thickly inviolate. • The King also as Sovereign transacted the eon inhabited by Jesuits, and regular Clergy sent out by them cerne of the country through the State Secretary, and how h o t , l: , e I %e a s n t remote ittllat to other parts of Europe, and to form their establishments could he act with foreign Protestant Governmenti,. if the partsiN o b e of Lordsl' h is ate Majesty's right rn toni dominions.— ask when I submit this measure to their consideration, sequence would be if t tetholic were to be made Secretaryfor i S ic ee ? re i t i mm e ty be t g e g e e o ( t i t whom : he communicated were a Catho what reason I have for believing . that the measure the Colonial Department:no_ will be successful ? My Lords, I believe it will answer, that the power of the King was through his agency for a moment to coneiderwhat the con not only from the example of all Europe, but from Colonies, and if he ruse a Catholic thoea' Colonies might the example of a part of this kingdom. In me former be deprived of his instruction, as far as regtaOled the Pro period, made anown in the period, and if lam nut mistaken, it was before the Union testant re li g i o n. In the Home Department also; Kiug of England with Scotland, the state of society in was tetwerented by his Secretary of State. The Reia•i"..aa° Scotland was as bad as the state of society of Ire- late here spoke in so low a tone, that he . was for a few land is at present. Abroad, we know, that the minutes inaudible. When we again caught his Yoked he exclusion to all civil privileges- is unknown, and proceeded as follows m—lt is, may Lords, of vast imnpoito • that tl:e words Protestantism and Catholicism are ance that the Secretary for the Colonies should be well • never heard of. lam certain that I can state what 1 affected towards the Protestant Church. I may.speak . • can prove, when I unsure your Lordships what from experience of a Noble Lord whom I now see Ili .his was the state of society in Scotland previous l ace, and who presided for many years over that depart. ' to the concession of civil privileges to the Episco- ment to the benefit of his country, and with credit and ;ethane; and if your Lordships will give me leave honour to himself—of whom, indeed, I Ivey say, that I \yid read to you a petition sent to me this day, that was while filling this arduous office he maintained a charactre sent to Parliament when those concessions were about to which has never been exceeded. I had the honour of, be lie made, and which, your Lordships, will find is almost ing in the confidence of that Metric Lord, and of being the model of many 'of the petitions your Lordships have often consulted by him with reference to the concerns of his heard presented to this House on the present occaeion• department, and I speak from what I know. when I say I tin in hopes, therefore, that after this Bill shall have that he discharged hie duties with temperance and zeal, passed, and when there is no longer occasion for these coo- with a firm desire for the nnaintenaece of religion, with plaints, that the altered state of things which we have the most considerate kindness towards the Clergy, and seen to exist now for more than a century will also with the most scrupulous care to prevent elissensions in the . prevail in Ireland. The purport of the petition which Colonies of this kingdom over whose interests it - was his the Noble Duke read was to this effect—that to destiny to preside. His conduct was, in fact, such as 'to. grant toleration to that part of the com•nunity, under the pm oduce towards him in my mind a deep and sincere rev s `' • existing circumstances of the Church and nation, would spect, which I shall preserve to my dying day. Now, 1. unavoidably shake the foundation of our Protest ant happy will ask this Noble Earl if he be ;not fully and entirely ' Constitution, overthrow those laws upon which it was aware that no Roman Catholic Secretary for the Colonies settled, needlessly disturb the tranquillity which the nation could have done for the clentrches of these colonies that had enjoyed since the late revelution —disquiet the main- which the Noble Earl was upon so many occasions enabled tenance of his Majesty's best eubjects--inerease ani- to do? Nay, I will go further, and contend that, if a mosity—confirm discords and tumults—weaken ammo Roman Catholic. Secretary were desirous to do as much enervate society—and open the door to uucurbed vice fur the Colonial Church as the Noble Earl had ever' done, and Popery, as well as other evils. That Popery would he would not have the power to carry his wishes into get into the Government ; and all the nation feel the in- effect—that he could nonin short, be as effective a Minieter conyeeience of the worst of measures from which they had as one who was Protestant—and that he could not effectually heretofore been liberated. The petitioners prayed, there- discharge his duty as the repretentetive of the King. With fore, in the name of the Lord, that no such toleration he respect, then, to the power lodged in the hands of the Cola granted, being aware that in the present state of the question vial Secretary, it is sufficient for my argument to State that it would be nett'ulishing iniquity by law, and would be he has at his disposal extensive eccletiastical patronage — bringing upon the promoters thereof the dreadful weight that he must have great influence over the appointments of f all those sins consequent thereon.—(The reading of this bishops, archdeacons, arid chaplains—and that, if all such petition created considerable merriment in the House.)— appointments be not at his disposal, a great portion of sueri Now, my Lords, I sincerely hope that the prophecies held patronage must, unquestionably, remain in his hande. out with respect to this measure may be just as true as But, my Lords, this is not all. The Colonial Secretary those with respect to Scotland made many years ago. I possesses absolute power over the comforts of the colonial have grounds to hope this measure will he attended by the clergy. It has often happened that in consequence of dit happiest effects. There is no doubt when this measure shall pensions arising in our colonies, although the clergy have have been adopted, that the Catholics will have no separate been iu no way to blame for such dissensions, that they interests in the state. There is no doubt the causes which have been under the necessity of applying to the mother excite different interests will cease, and that there will be country to protect their interests and to preserre their rights. but one feeling between the people of England, Ireland; I assert, then, my Lords, that those interests and those and Scotland. Parliament, my Lords, will be induceTto rights would not be safe in the hands of a Roman Catholic look at Ireland with the saute eye which looks at Scotland. Colonial Secretary of State, and I contend that, if the Cite —(llear, hear, hear.)—lf I ant deceived in the hope lonial Secretary of State be not actuated by a Protestant of conciliation arising from this measure, and I should feel spirit, he may possess influence to discourage almost to cx any scruples in the continuation of it, I will not fail to lay tinguish the Church of England in many of the colonies of those scruples before Parliament, and call on your Lord- Great Britain. My Lords, it is impossible, I conceive, ships to support me es I have done in the present in- for any person of a religious mind to look to England with. stance.—(Hear, hoar. )—Having now explained to your out considering her to be, and to have long been, a chosen Lordships the ground on which I bring forward this instrument in the hands of Providence for carrying religion measure, I will only remind yon again of the state of Ire- to the uttermost ends of the earth, and for spreading its in land. The inconveniences attending the question, the fluence over all parts of the habitable globe. Under the difficulties which oceur, and the almost impossibility of sanction and by the aid of the Protestant established finding any remedy—the situation of the public die church there large missionary societies have been formed, vided by sentiments on this question—the pretences and their efforts have been successful in many distant re which I may call them to evade all concession.— gions, and the effects of their exertions hove been felt and (Hear) —the opposition on the ground of religious appreciated to a very wide extent ; but, if such societies do opinions—all these matters will no doubt press upon your not receive the countenance, the actual support, of the minds, and having explained what we consider a remedy Colonial Secretary, I affirm that their objects, if carried for these inconveniences, can your Lordship refuse to on at all, can produce but very little beneficiel result. I adopt it ? I will trouble your Lordships no further, but contend, then, my Lords, that the King of Great Britain implore you, iu the consideration of this question, to follow cannot be fairly represented by any Colonial Secretary of the recommendation in the speech from time Throne. I State who is not Protestant. Now, my Louie, with re entreat your Lordships to consider it with temper and ference also to the Secretary of State for the Home De moderation. The Noble Duke sat down amidst loud partment, I should have much to say but that Ido not cheering. desire to trespass at much greater length on the attention The Archbishop of CANTERBURY—During the of your Lordship.. But I must observe that the Home time I have had the honour of holding a seat in Secretary possesses great power with regard to the Este this House, I have always opposed the grant- Wished Church, and that a considerable portion of church ing of political power to the Roman Catholics. I patronage is placed in his hands and at his disposal. I must allow, my Lords, I have opposed concessions on some must also add, that his influence is almost unbounded occasions with a feeling of regret ; and never was that over many of the institutions connected with time church. regret so strong as at present, when the measure is brought I may say so much with respect to the church of Eng. forward by his Majesty's Government, and supported by land, I will ask your Lordship to consider for a few mo so many distinguished characters. But, my Lords, means the situation in which a Protestant Lord Lieutenant I have a duty to perform paramount to the feeling of re- of that country would be placed with a Roman Catholic spect for individuals. I owe a duty to the Church to Secretary of State and a Boman Catholic Secretary for which I belong, and that Protestant Constitution Ireland. I trust I shall not be considered as pressing my of which the Church forms a part.—(Hear, hear. own views too fair in contending that the church of Eng -I have always thought, and I think so still, land will risk the loss of its Pretestant character if this that the interests of that church would be injured by the measure be passed at all ; hut to this observation I must concession proposed in this Bill. If political power also add, that Ido not consider it absolutely necessary be conceded to the Roman Catholics, the Protes.ent that, even if we have a change in the Constitution of Church must, in my opinion, be seriously injured.—(ll er, the country, there should be a change in the feature of the hear.)—l have heard it said, at different times, in this materials out of which the Government of that country is House that the principles of the Roman Catholic religion composed. If, then, this measure be carried I will say that are changed. It is said these principles have undergone a the heads of the present Administration intuit feel the heavy material change. Surely that assertion will be no longer responsibility under which they labour by the consequences insisted upon when we hear those who stand high in ec- that may ensue; and, while I hope that they will look at clesiastical situation—the Roman Catholic clergy—declare every part of the measure now before the Hansa as Pro that they will never depart from the principles on which testant Statesmen ought to do, I hope their most earnest they hold their church to be founded. I have also heard attention will be given to those features of it tvhich cannot it said they will no longer abuse their spiritual power ; but materially affect the Church of Ireland. My Lords, but have we not lately seen that power made a most dun- that branch of our Established Church demands the most gerous engine? It has been said, if the Roman Catholics deliberate consideration, and I say that you will not act receive all their political rights, they will give security for fairly towards that country if you de not adopt every the preservation of peace and tranquillity. lam sorry to means consistent with justice to deliver the mass of its say, my Lords, I believe that will not be the case.— people from the tyranny exercised over them by their (Hear, hear, hear.) With respect to the repeal of the priests, to prevent them from being any longer kept by laws which this Bill is to repeal, I am also induced violence from scriptural instruction—that scriptural in to believe it would be impolitic to make such repeal. struction which would in the end lead to a reformation When I tee Roman Cmtholics act in defiance of Govern- there as well as here. There is another topic which I ment, and excite the passions of the people by harangues would press upon your Lordship. Lis this—that tie of a seditious character, and levying taxes on the people for village in Ireland, that no spot throughout that country, the purpose of promoting faction, I must confess I shall be suffered to remain without its affordiog to Protes can not see any ground to entertain sanguine hopes of a tants the means of worshipping God According to the die better feeling in Ireland. I can not expect a better tates of their conscience. With respect, nay Lords, to state of things in Ireland. I certainly can not securities, I must, in justice to his Majesty's :Ministers, say take on myself to answer for facts, not having that I should not have been satisfied with the securities information on the affairs of Ireland, but if I which they have, I think, very wisely rejected—l mean give credit to the existence of a better spirit and the payment of the Roman Catholic priesthood, which bow to the necessity, I ant bound to consider the very would form something like a Roman Catholic Church great sacrifices we are called upon to make for temporary Establishment under the protection of the State. I consider, tranquillity—l cannot contemplate without terror the then, that the Government has been more than justified in change which is nosy proposed in the Constitution 1 refusing to listen to such a protmeition. My Lords, it of this country. I can never forget that our Constitution • afforded me much pleasure to hear the Noble Duke at the is essentially Protestant, and this measure will entirely de- head of his Majesty's Government declare hie intention prive it of that character. I hope your Lordships will in- to do all in his power for the cerryino into effect the lases bulge me in chewing the grounds on which I form my opi- for preventing the admission of Jesuit's into this country, nion. It cannot be unknown to your Lordships, who are well because I laid apprehended that throes laws would not only acquainted with the history of the country, that disputes be evaded, butt would rereain as little else than et, dead between the Sovereigns of England and the Pope were of letter upon the statute-hook. Thus, my Lordselfwe very' long continuance. 1 believe the disputes began raised my voice against the minor detaiis and against time before the reign of Henry the Second. I may call I general principle of the Bill now lying upon the taale of this your attention to the claims of the Pope in the House, and w hick your Lordships have been called upon imv reign of King John, and prior to the reign of Edward the head of his 3lejestyas Goiternment to read for a second , the Third. I say nothing of the character and motives of time. To that Bill I ant fixedly and decidgdly opposed. Henry the Eighth, whether it was time violence of his pas- 1 Intrust that, in the opposition I give it, I am actuated by siens, or dislike of the Roman swat-, but Henry the no spirit unbecoming - a Christian Bishop, and that the Eighth certainly broke the political and spiritual bond of centre,: I have taken has been pursued without any undue Rome, and from that reign they might .fate the reforma- I warmth, without any uncharitable feeling, but solely and tion. The attachment of the people of England to exclusively out of regard to a deep sense of duty to the the Reformation had continued, and notwithstanding interests committed to my charge. I evil now trouble &feign of the House of Stuart, during which attempts , your Lordships no farther, but move as au amendment to . - restore Popery, the refereed Religion kept the motion of the Noble Duke that this Bill be read .t 'its ground. At the patting of these Acts, which they second time this day six menthe. (The Right Rev. Pre• were called upon to repeal, there might have been a feeling late re:fumed his seat amid continued cheers.) • oec i e e l o m e l by the disclosures of Titus Oates, but The Archbishop of ARMAGH said, that I.e 1,, , 1 a certainly at the - Revolution of MB, *vie Acts mxupied sacred dot , / tv perfnal, wiaich IA 11'910 Aft deterred . '