The Sun. — London, England, 1858-06-15 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, YUNE 15, 1858. be introduced in India itself. (Hear.) Ile did not put forward the principle of election as the principle of re presentation—(hear)—but simply as a means—an alter native means which the house would do well to consider; by which, for some portion of this council, they might obtain the services of men who should be at once emi. neat and independent. The only question on which he need eater, then, was the nature of the constituency to be adopted. If any such constituency was formed, he thought the house would be ready to accept that which already existed, viz., the Court of East India Proprietors. To that court might be added a large number of persons who bad an interest in the material and industrial enterprises which were carried on in India ; as, for instance, the bolding of India railway stock. The proprietors of India stock entitled to vote amounted, he believed, to 1,600 or 1,700, and the holders of India railway stock to about 2,600. In addition to these, as applying a third element for the supposed iconstituency, they might take the re tired officers of the various branches of the service in India who had served there for 10 years. Of such officers there were resident in this country from 2,600 to 2,700 persons. Theis these bodies would give a constituency of from 7,000 to 8,000, so that as regarded numbers a con stituency could be found. With regard to the intelligence of such a constituency, and their competence to perform the duty which would devolve upon them, he need not use any argument, for upon that point the committee could form its own judgment. He would merely observe that such a constituency would import a large amount of personal interest into Indian affairs—a large amount of experience of Indian administration, and, what was perhaps of no less importance, an entire freedom from political Wee. If the elective principle was adopted, that was the general constituency which he should suggest, and which he would now leave the committee to decide upon: (Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL said the noble lord had made a very fair statement to the committee on this important subject, but which did not require any very lengthened argument. They had, on the one hand, this suggestion of the noble lord, and on the other they had the proposition of the a ppointment of the council by the Crown—a mode of a ppointment which the Government themselves adopted for part of the council. It was the regular and constitutional mode of appointment in this monarchy that when appointments to the executive were made they should be made by the Crown or the respon sible Minister of the Crown. (Hear, hear.) When ap pointments of this kin , ' were made, whether of judges or other executive officers, everybody knew from whom the appointment emanated, and by whom advice was given to the Crown. If an incompetent person was appointed, the Prime Minister or the head of the department from whom the appointment issued was responsible. There was therefore a constitutional security of responsibility when an unfit appointment was made. By the act of 1853 a certain number of appointments to the East India Board were given to the Crown. Five appointments were made under that act, and no one that he was aware of found fault with the selection made by the Crown. (Hear.) At all events, the late President of the Board of Control had not found fault with them nor their other colleagues at the India Board. He did not know that it had ever been said that the appointments of judges, the heads of the revenue and customs departments had been unduly made; and for this reason, that the Minister of the Crown felt that a heavy responsibility rested on him if an improper selection had been made. The noble lord pointed out some of the objections to nomination. Ob jections might of course be made to any mode of appoint ment, but in all these things they must only balance convenience and inconvenience. He did not think that nomination during good behaviour, or for a longer or shorter term of years, which was the mode of nomination chosen by the present Government themselves, would be open to such inconvenience and be so injurious to the council as the mode now proposed by the Government. (Hear.) It was one thing to keep up the old machinery when the old machinery existed, and he could under stand the argument of those who said the advantage of it was so great that they would not risk a change. But when the house decided that a change was desirable he ventured to submit to the committee that they ought to make it complete, and not to take a piece of one sys teth and a piece of another system, and try to dovetail them together. (Hear, hear.) There was consistency and identity of interests in the old system, when the East India proprietors were traders, and flourished as trade prospered, and decayed as trade decayed. But when,. in 1838, this system ceased, and the proprietors of East India stock had their dividends secured to them in such a mapner that the prosperity or failure of the Indian trade hardly affected their position, the position of the East India proprietors became very different. They had a three per cent, stock in this country, the value of which depended very much on the prosperity of the country, but no man would say that the proprietors of the three per cent. stock should elect a certain number of the Cabinet of this country. (Hear.) There would be quite as much incongruity and absurdity in making the proprietors of the East India stock elect a part of the Indian Council. The holders of railway stock appeared to him as little fitted to be electors of the council as the proprietors of East India stock. They never were known to have taken any part in the government of India; they were guaranteed the money they advanced, they had no direct interest in the government of India, and whatever interest they had might be supposed to lie in the direc tion of imposing greater burdens so as to secure good dividends to themselves. With regard to the retired commissioned officers resident in this country, some of that class might take an interest in the affairs of India, but the greater part of them, though resident in India, and serving in India, did not con cern themselves, and had no manner of interest in the persons who were most competent to govern India. He understood that there were 400 ladies who were proprietors of East India Stock. He had no great objection to their introduction, but it was a novel prin ciple to introduce into the government of India. (Hear, hear.) The house had already decided that the system of governing India should be changed, and he should consider it a bad augury for the good government in the future if they took those who had been heretofore the nominators of the government of India as the future constituency of India. The committee should consider the evil which would follow from the proposition. The directors would have the same share of patronage that they heretofore had. Persons of very great weight very much objected to the mode of paying the directors by patronage. Lord W. Bentinck, Lord Macaulay, and Mr. Trevelyan, persons of great Indian experience, protested against their being paid by patronage ; and he saw by the papers of that day that Sir J. Lawrence was of opinion that all appointments in India, whether civil or military, should be made by competitive examination. He (Lord J. Russell) came to the conclusion that, if the noble lord succeeded in his proposition of naming ten out of the fifteen, or eight or six, out of the members of the council by means of this representative body, he would be giving rise to a system of corruption which would be very injurious to the future interests of India. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that this body was so numerous and so separate that canvassing would not take place; but there would be means found out of cir culating letters and engaging the votes of the consti tuency ; and there was danger that the patronage of the members would be distributed amongst the constituency that elected them. (Hear, hear.) He was of opinion that the nomination should be by the Crown, which ap peared to him to be the most effectual mode of securing the independence ofathe council. (Hear, hear,) The noble lord concluded by moving that it was expedient that the members of the council should be nominated by her Majesty. (Hear.) Sir J. GRAHAM, who rose at the same time with Sir E. Perry, said he was sorry to stand between the house and the hon. and learned gentleman, who had so much more experience of India, and whose opinions were more worthy of their attention. He had hitherto abstained from obtruding any opinion of his upon the attention of the committee ; but the vote which he was now called upon to give he could not give with out teeing a somewhat more general view of the subject than was presented by the motion under consideration, Throughout these discussions he had deliberately voted in accordance with the opinion that this moment was most inopportune for changing the system of government in India. (Rear.) He had therefore voted for the motion of the bon. member fur Huntingdon (Mr. T. Baring) for the motion of the noble lord the member for Durham (L nerd H. Vane), and for the motion of his right hon. friend (Mr. Gladstone). Although he did not wish to re-argue the question on which the house had already pronounced, still he could not but remark that the authorities on whom the greatest reliance could safely be placed on such a sub ject were opposed to the step they were about -to take-. Lord Ellen borough pronounced a decided opinion that the change at this time was in xpedient. Ho had no means of knowing with precision the opinion of Lord Dalhousie, but ha believed confidently that his opinion was opposed to thechange on which they wereabout to enter. But what ever might be the opinion of Lord Ellenborough or Lord Dalhousie, of all men living he entertained a very decided opinion that the decision end opinion of Mr. Mountstewart Elpleinstone was that which was most entitled to their consideration—(hear, hear)—and his deliberate opinion was also ad verse to proceeding with this measure at present. (Hear.) With regard to authorities he would say MO more. He did not wish to take a gloomy view tl ii'ffetirs in India, but still it could not be forgotten that the mutiny was not at present quelled. (Hear.) He was afraid there were as many men is arms against them in the Upper Provinces of India as at the com mencement of the outbreak. There were very remark. able expressions even with respect to the success of cur arms in the correspondence from India. Our success in India had been compared to the course of a vessel which cat the waves indeed, but left no trace behind ; and to the wind blowing over a field cf corn which bent before its impulse, but i m medi a t e ly a fter w a r ds the corn raised its Read again. They heard by every mail of the capture of guns, but still there did not appear to be any want of' guns or lack of the mun i t i ons of war on the part of the neeree thus plainly showing that there had been for a length of time s t rncealment of arms, which were pro- dueed Now, coansele takt newergeueY of he present occasion. dangercims. (Star, b in fear were generally rash and (tem e , ti t v re gale of -wind was an lues%) To unship the rudder in a pulse, but it was most dangerous, and often horses ran ;,way to take the r°118.,, ou ( t He f a t r. h > e W hea coachman's the hand 'was the first in pule, but it ° a n n ot d. presence of mind, but a sympt.in of fear, raelonesas 8, anciimprudence. w d e o r t w e h n e t h a e e n ffi d l a i r s e t (llt-nr.) When a State was totterin g would find those who was sh tken, you able to build it up the !poet swift to de stroy. (Hear.) But admitting that effect must b given to the decision of the majority, then ca me th e question, what is it you des ire ? What is your ob je ct Is it to constitute a deliberative council more efficaciou s than that which now exists, or is it to give greater promptitude and efficiency to the executive . 7 It ap. peered to him that his hon. friend the member for Birreingbain was at that moment the axis on which the political globe of the house revolved —(laughte r ) — and that; being so, he was brought to the conclusion that his noble friend the member for Tiverton and himself were the antipodes—(laughter)—because it so happened that when the noble lord agreed with the hon. member for Birmin ham, he (Sir J. Graham) found himself differing widely from him, whilst when the noble lord differed from his hon. friend, he found himself con stantly agreeing with him. (Laughter.) On the present occasion, the hon. member for Birmingham dealt most frankly with the house, for he told them what he desired us to see, a council constituted as widely different from the present Court of Directors as possible. His noble friend—certainly somewhat late in the day—last Friday i announced that he most cordially agreed with the hon. gentleman in that respect. (Laughter.) Now it was a most remarkable fact that up to the present time the ex isting Court of Directors bad no accuser. It was not only without an accuser, but it was smothered with Like compliments theviet fromvictim ef all ancient side fable, of the it shouse . wasgarlanded(ear, hear.)with flowers of rhetoric by the very h ands which were raised to destroy it. (Hear hear.) So far from wishing to make the new council as different as possible from the present Court of Directors, his desire was, since there was to be a change, that the change should be reduced to a minimum, and that it should be made in the main as like the present court as possible. He did not mean to offer any vain compliments to any member of that house but of all the members of that house then present who best understood this question in all its bearings, he must say that the right hon. gentleman the member for Hali fax (Sir C. Wood) was the man. (Hear. hear.) He (Sir J. Graham) had the honour of being associated with Lord Glenelg, with Lord Macaulay, and Sir J. Mackintosh, in the committee which framed the act of 1833. There was no novelty present now which was not present to the committee which framed that act, because the com mercial character of the company ceased that very year and that committee came to the conclusion, which was adopted by the government of Lord Grey, that it was inexpedient to take their powers from the East India Company on the cessation of their commercial existence. But his right hon. friend the member for Halifax, who understood the matter clearly in theory and practice, told the house he was of opinion that a mixed go. verning council aiding the Minister of the Crown was indispensable to guide and control the government of India. (Hear, hear.) His right hon. friend also said —and he did not think he would withdraw the opinion —that " a better council than the East India direc tors no man ever had to aid him in the government of India." (Hear, hear.) His right hon. friend the member for Randor and the noble lord the member for Tiverton, differing from his right hon. friend the mem ber for Halifax, but not possessing his knowledge and experience, declared the machinery to be cumbrous and inefficient. Where was the proof of its being cumbrous and inefficient I (Hear, hear.) The report of the com mittee on transports when presented to the house would show, if he mistook not, that any delays which took place did not arise from the Court of Directors. (Hear, hear.) His right hon, friend the member for Randor, in addressing the house upon this question, took an illustration from mechanics, and said that no machine was stronger than in its weakest point. Now without meaning any disrespect to the right hon. gentleman the member for Northampton, he would ask him where he thought the weakest point was before the fall of the late government. (Laughter.) But to come back to the point that-if they were obliged to make a change under circumstances so alarming, it was desirable that the change should be the minimum consistent with the de cision of the house. (Hear, hear.) They had resolved that the dominion should be transferred to the crown, and that there should be a council to assist a minister, and they were to decide how that council was to be con stituted. Some persons held that the change to be made, however small it might be, should be such as would appear to be part of a great and large design. He thought, however, that it would be a recommenda tion in any proposal hat the change it involved was no great reversal of what now existed, and did not appear to be part of a great and extensive change. As yet all the difficulties in India arose from a military mutiny ; the measures of necessary severity for the punishment of that may be such as to produce an unfavourable im pression on the minds of the people of India, and it would be a most unfortunate circumstance if they should be led to believe that there had been any great changes in the home government of India which would lead to a reversal of the existing policy. The East India Company, whatever might be its faults, was imbued with a know :edge of the social habits of the people of India, with a sympathy for the natives, a kindly feeling towards their prejudices and their errcrs. If the native mind should be brought to believe that anygreat change had taken place is the Government here which amounted to a reversal of their former policy, that which is now but a military mutiny might be converted into a struggle between races, a conflict between black and white, and an alienation of the whole people from us. The result of such an event would be the loss of our empire there. All those views pointed to the conclusion that they ought to be contented if possible with an inconsiderable change ; that if (to use the expression of his noble friend) they could build on the old foundations they would effect all that circum stances required. Various plane had been suggested and different persons had stated the views they were dis posed to take, and he therefore thought it right to state what course he would be inclined to adopt. He was dis posed to think that after all it would be well that the council should consist of a number from 13 to 15, as the committee had already decided, and that in the first in stance the council should be nominated in the bill. (Hear.) He thought the council so nominated should hold office during good behaviour, which was equivalent to life ; and that a large or the larger portion of the pre sent Court of Directors should be the persons selected f,,r nomination on the council. (Hear, hear.) He was of opinion, to meet the difficulty suggested by the noble lord (Lord S'anley), that after a service of, say ten years, the Government should be empowered to grant them a retiring allowance. He thought also that the salary should be at least 1,5001. a-year. He was also of opi nion—and in this ho was sorry to say he differed from his noble friend (Lord J. Russell)—that they ought not to have seats in Parliament. (Hear.) He thought a select committee ought to be appointed. If they were to have the requisite promptitude and efficiency, he did not see how they could dispense with it. The Minister could not act with promptitude and energy unless there was a se cret committee through which be would act. The noble lord (Lard J. Russell) spoke of having them all members of the Privy Council ; he would, as a distinction, confer that honour only on the three members of the secret committee. As to their sitting in Parliament, he must say his experience of recent debates would lead him to expectt if it were allowed, occasional conflicts between the minister and his council, which would be better avoided. With regard to the question of patronage, he thought that the appointment of Governor-General, governors of the presidencies, and commander-in-chief ought to be made by the crown. As to the members of the councils in India, they might be named by the go vernment of the day, by the Governor-General, or by the President and council. As regarded a very large portion of the general patronage, the question was already solved. The whole of the civil appointments were made matter of public and open competition ; that privilege ought certainly to be extended to the first commission in the artillery or engineers, the scientific corps. With regard to the remainder of the patronage, he did not see any objection to its being exercised by the minister and council—(hear, hear)—in proportions a rine what the same as at present, the nominees being subject to an examination to ascertain their fineness. He might be wrong, but he held a strong opinion that the plan which involved the minimum of change was moat de sirable, and still it would effect all the great objects they bad decided on. He had then to consider how he was to vote on the question immediately before them. The principle of election did not enter into the Court of Directors as at present constituted, and he bad already stated he should recommend that a large portion of them be taken for the council to be constituted in the bill. To that extent, there would be in the first instance an inter mixture of the principles of election and nomination. He was bound to say ho was not prepared to carry the principle of election further. He was prepared on principle to vote for the resolution as it now stood, but he could not vote for the seventh resolution. He had reason to believe, from the opinions of friends whose opinions were of the highest value, the late Lord W. Bewinck and the late Lord Hardioge, that the system of canvassing, as it has existed up to the present time, was so disagreeable to the feelings of many men the best qualified—(hear)—that they would not look for the once. He feared an extension of the constituency would only aggravate the evil—(hear)—and aggravate it to such a degree that first-rate men coining from India would not expose themsele;es to a task so disagreeable and so onerous. He did not wish to say anything harsh candidateslalni his k h n o o n w e l s e t d r ag with e a n h e respectto p a s such ee patronage, e 43 of the pr esen t system, but from facts which had come to vtah t s h as e t 8 ha p on r y e u e l sduuper upright sacrifice his in,ere t at the expense of his friends or come He f e filling Il would ing up vacancies. He under engagem en t s not consistent with purity of conduct. a entertainedsugges ti suggestion a n as veryt o the decided mode opinion that they ought not to carry the principle of no mination by the Crown into full effect. He would rather adopt the opinion of Lord -Grey, that the best course would be for the president and council to agree to three Dames to be submitted to the Crown ; before the final nomination the names selected by the Crown should be laid on the table of both houses for say a month, and the final nomination would not take place if objected to by one or both houses of Parliament. To that extent he would retain the principle of nomination and election. lie must say that, if they could not have an effective council exercising a moral control over the minister, they would be driven, as the hon. member fur Sheffield had prophesied, into the opposite extreme; and if they could I not have an effective council they would be driven in ii hopeless despair to embrace the opposite alternative, and have a minister solely responsible, with subordinates of high character and station. It could not be denied that the government of India had been mainly conducted in all its highest features and most important outlines, by gentlemen who had never them-elves been in India, Sir James Melvin, Mr. Melvill, the two Mr. Mills, and Mr. Dickinson, were men a ho hal worked the labour ing oar. He would prefer a minister with such subor dinates, unless they had an independent, effective coun cil exercising a moral control. He aid not want a sham of a council, the members of which would open their mouths like ravens to the inin'str for their food, when the term of their office was about to expire. He would infinitely prefer a responsible min ister to such a council. He was desirous of the very minimum of change. It appeared to him they had better proceed piecemeal, with a view to making future changes as experience pointed out. The Court of Di rectors, with with its prestige in India, and its knowledge of subject, would b r i n g in the aid o f the n e w coun cil that power, experience, and knowledge which would be the best medium m v ieium of int ro d uc i ng h erea ft er f u t ure c h anges . in present on the whole, that the least change would, thought they circumstances , eithercould notma make e a illbe the most advisable. He pauseno w betweenarrived two at opinions point inio n s ; when they mustt bey y e least possible change, or go the entire length, and have a responsible minister with agents re- ' movable at the pleasure of the crown—not lightly re movable, but on the same footing as the under-secreta ries. He was sorry to have troubled the committee at such length—(hear, hear)—his excuse was that he had not troubled them before. He thought it best to state frankly what his opinions were, and what course he would take ; he should, with the views he had described, vote for this resolution, but for the seventh resolution he could not vote. (Hear, hear.) Sir G. C. LEWIS said that his right hon. friend who had just spoken had revived the question of the general expediency of legislating for India this session, and in so doing had in fact renewed the discussion which was first opened by the hon. member for Huntingdon in the early part of the debate. The right hon. gentleman had also referred to an opinion which he (Sir G. C. Lewis) bad expressed, that the existing constitution of the East India Company was cumbrous and inefficient. He (Sir G. C. Lewis) did not think it would be agreeable to the com mittee if he were now to renew that question, but he would just remark that the objection he made did not apply to the constitution of the Court of Directors, but to the compound which was formed by the Board of Con trol operating upon the Court of Directors. He was quite prepared, if necessary, to defend the opinion he then expressed, that it was most desirable the house should, in the present session, proceed to revise and re construct that ineffective form of government. The question they had now immediately to consider, how ever, was the mode of appointing the council which was to assist the Indian Ministers. He quite concurred in the opinion that it would be highly advantageous to have such a council. When the general question of our colo nial administration was more in question than it was on the present occasion, it was proposed that there should he a colonial council to assist the Colonial Minister; but the objection to that proposal was the heterogeneous character of our colonies, which would frustrate the ob ject it was intended to answer. For example, if a coun cil were sitting in one chamber, composed of members prepared to advise the Minister on questions relating to our North American colonies, of others prepared to ad vise on our Western, of others again on our Australian, and of others on Ceylon, it was impossible they could all concur with equal efficiency in giving advice on any one question. Now, with respect to India the constitution of a homogeneous council was quite possible. He could see no absurdity whatever in the propositior, and he did see reasons for establishing an Indian council, though he could see none for establishing a general colonial coun cil. With regard to the precise manner in which the pro posed council should be constituted, the noble lord op posite had brought that question forward in a fair and convenient form, and one which he trusted would lead the committee to a satisfactory solution of it. The noble lord bad divided the question into two parts—the mode of appointing the nominative portion of the council, and the mode of appointing the elective portion. Practi cally, the question lay between the proposition of the noble lord and that of the late Government. The ques tion in fact was, should the council consist exclusively of members nominated by the Crown, or should it consist partly of members nominated by the Crown, and partly of members elected according to the princi ple set forth in the Bth resolution. With respect to the tenure of the member to be appointed by the Crown, the proposition of his noble friend was, that they should hold office during good behaviour. In the bill of the late Govern ment, the proposition was this—that they should be ap pointed by the Crown, that the term of office should be appointed by the Crown, that the term of office should be eight years, sul ject to good behaviour in that time, and that they should then go out unless so re-ap. pointed, but in that case they were not to be entitled to retiring allowances. The object of the proposition of the late Government was this. It was thought that unless come provision were made limiting the period of service, they would not retire. In the bill of the late Govern ment the term was reduced to six years. But such was the reluctance of officers to retire, that he would re mind the committee that in the case of the judges, which had been referred to by the noble lord, even with the securities of publicity and single action io Court, a great difficulty had been found in inducing aged judges to retire, even the loss of the all-important sense of hearing not having been deemed by them sufficient for the purpose. Some ago ought, therefore, to be fixed, and he was prepared to agree to the propostion of the Government, with the understanding that the Govern ment could give a superannuation. (Hear, hear ) With regard, now, to the elective part of the council, that was, in fact, the point on which the vote of the committee would turn. The noble lord had with great candour ad mitted that the principle of representation would be in applicable in the case of a council like that of India. He said he recommended election as the best mode of treat , ing a problem difficult of solution by other means ; but that he did not look upon the council as fulfilling a representative character, or as being entrusted with representative functions. He (Sir G. C. Lewis) begged hon. members, on that (the Opposition) side of the house, to remember, therefore, that all the popular arguments as to the election were held by the Government to fail in the case of India. The principle of our constitution was, that taxation and re presentation should go together. Now, the taxpayers were the people of India, but the constituents of the elective members of the council would be the tax-eaters, as they had been termed the tax-consumers of India. Teey would be the proprietors of India stock, who re ceived dividends guaranteed on the produce of the Indian revenue. There were 1,600 proprietors of India stook, of whom one-fourth were ladies, and the principle of election proposed was, that the voters should have a direct interest in property charged on the revenue of the country. But India stock was now quite imaginary. The 6,000,0001. cf India stock was simply a charge upon the revenue of India, and did not exist in a tangible form. Therefore the stock holder was only the creditor of the Indian Government. He had a certain charge on the revenue of India, which was guaranteed to him by Act of Parliament. He was a guaranteed creditor, and his claim had priority of other claims. If the stock holder, therefore, was to have a vote in the election of the council, a similar right ought to be given to all other creditors of the Indian Government. He did not see how it was possible to make a distinction between the Indian bondholders and those who held the Indian debt, or were proprietors of India Stock. By a recent return of the stock held since 1851 it appeared that 297 millions of rupees were held by Europeans, and 164 millions by natives ; being 29,000,0001. and 16,000,000/. respec tively. Native proprietors, therefore, held one-third of the entire amount of the Indian debt. Now it was pro vided by the last act for India that the claims of these parties might be paid off within one year of Parliament depriving the company of their administration of the Government of India, or, in certain circumstances in which it might seem expedient to do so. The contingency then contemplated would actually arise if the measure now before the house should pass ; for the company would then be deprived of its possession, and Genera went of the Indian territories. The proprietor might then demand to be paid off, under the conditions of the existing act. There would be no difficulty in the opera tion, and, in his opinion it would be an advantageous one for the country. Either, therefore, the proprietor would demand to be paid off, or else the time would come when such a measure would become expedient and necessary. In either case it was clear that it would not do to rest the basis of an elective principle for that coun cil on a constituency which might and which no doubt would, one day disappear. The noble lord proposed that members of railways and other public works in India, in addition to the proprietors of India Stock, should be members of the constituency. He (Sir G. C. Lewis) could not see that the committee could come to any other con. elusion than that the whole council should be nominated by the Crown. The noble lord had said that the consti tuency he proposed would be free from political bias— but more than that was wanted to constitute a body of ehmtors. He (Sir G. C. Lewis) had no objection to a clause being introduced to qualify some of the present directors for being members of the council. S,r E. PERRY said the right - hon.Qonet (Sir J. Graham) had stated that he intended to vote in favour of the council being partly elected and partly nom nated, although he had said he was opposed to that proposition upon principle. As to the functions of the Court of D.- rectors, he had high authority for stating that in moat of the measures of a general character they had very little power to interfere, after the thing was done, beyond that of making comments. The council as proposed would, in his(Sir E. Perry's) opinion, sink into a mere nonentity. With the exception of the recal of Lord Ellenborougb, he denied that the Court of Directors were entitled to the credit which some hon. members had given them for their independence and knowledge of India., The functions of the council formed an important element ter their consideration. The right hoc. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, in answer to the question, that the council were to do everything. Now, it appeared to him (Sir E. Perry) that in certain eases where justice was to be administered, to natives of India especially, the council would be found to be of great value. Delay in legislation upon the affairs of India would be fatal to the interests of this country in India in his (Sir Erskine Perry's) opinion. His hon. friend the member for Guildford told the house over and over again that they had no one to deal with in India but the mutinous troops ; but surely, after what had happened, no one could be found who entertained such an opinior. Ile thought that speedy legislation was of the utmost importance, in order to disabuse the minds of the people of India themselves, and that things might settle down as quietly as possible. Another great ob stacle in their way was the prevalent feeling among the religious party in th'e country. They looked upon India as if it. were an island in the South Seas, and thought that by sending out one or two missionaries the whole country would be converted. Now, that was simply a delusion ; and he, for one, should hail the day with satisfaction when the whole of India was surrendered to the Crown and the came principles applied to the people as were acted on at home. He hoped to see toleration and justice established—he wished to have the rights of property respected, and no interference on the part of the State with matters that ought to be left to indi v nate. Mr. S. II ERBERT wool! not f,llow hie hon. and learned friend as to th e p as t o f the B oar d o f Di rectors as compared with what its future Government would be. lie voted the other night for the larger number on the coun cil, btcause be thought tbat,divided intocomroittees to do tlje cvirk the East li.dia Directors now performed, a large number was nec , •s!ary. lie did n 0 ,.. believe that any one not er gaged in the administration of affairs himself was competent to . advise a S ecre t ary o f S ta ' e And then came the question as to how the council was to be constituted. Tbey had, in the first in stance, the plan of his noble friend the me m b er f ur Tiverton, which was to be a direct nomination by the Crown of pereons eligible to be re-elected. Then they had that of his noble friend the member fur the City of London, which was 0130 nomination by the Crown during good behaviour; and that of the noble lord the President of the Board of Control, which was partly by election and partly by nomination. He was bound to say that he was very much struck by the extreme fairness which characterised the statement of that noble lord. Indeed, there was one remarkable cha racteristic in all his statements—that he never sought to colour anything, but tells the house everything with the most perfect fairness. (Hear.) Such a course of proceed. ing gives him, very naturally, great authority. The noble lord accordingly told them that he believed the elective element would be very advantageous, but he admitted that it was attended with great difficulties. The noble lord said, do not confound these elections with represen tation ; but, after all, that was the great difficulty. Re presentation without election was possible -because par ties may represent certain class interests—and even elec tion without representation. He remembered, many years ago, reading in one of the works of the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, a story of an English traveller who, in travelling in Egypt, had an interview with the Pacha, when he described the advan tage of popular election and representation, such as practised in England. On a subsequent occasion, in another interview, the Pacha informed him that he in tended to adopt the system in Egypt. " What !" said the traveller, " you cannot do it ; you have Lot the means nor the population to carry out such a system." "Oh !" said the Pacha, " I have determi n ed to elect them myself." (A. laugh.) Now that was what he (Mr. S. Herbert) called representation without election. They looked upon election in this country not with any great favour, but as a means to an end, in order to secure the benefit of representation. It was not in itself good, for it led to extravagance, reckless expenditure, hatred, and bad feeling, but they put up with all, in order to obtain the blessing of representation, and to do the country great good. Now, in case of election for this council, the court of proprietors holding stock could easily transfer it to entitle the holders to vote, and, altogether, very great abuees may arise. The question then arose, cocl-1 they get in any other way an indepen- dent council ; that is, an independence which could not be suspected. Now, he objected to the pl an o f hi s noble friend the memberfor Tiverton, because be thought the members of the council would be subject to be in fluenced by the Cro am, The plan of his right hon. friend the member for Carlisle, propounded for the first time that evening, was certainly entitled to their serious con sideration. They had the power of the Crown checked by the nomination in the bill, with the placing of names on the table of the house in order to enable any one to object to them. He certainly approved of it, though he did not see his way how it was to be effected ; but he hoped the Government would put some resolutions on the paper to carry it into practical operation. As the question at present stood, he certainly preferred the proposition of his noble friend the member for the city of London ; but he hoped the Government would ador; the proposition of his right hon. friend. Mr. WILLOUGHBY believed that on the appoint • merit of a proper council depended the future welfare, and indeed the safety of India. There were three modes proposed to secure that object. There was first the pro position of the Government, then that of the noble lord the member for Tiverton, and the third by the noble lord the member for London. For his own part, he pre ferred the plan of the Government to that of the noble lord the member for London, and that noble lord's to that of the member for Tiverton. He was favourable to the larger number of the council,eand he was a decided supporter of the flan of committees, as distinguished from heads of departments. He was also in favour of there being a vice-president of the council, as the presi dent could not be always present. He did not see any objec ion to a member of the council being a member of that house. Still there was a great deal in what had been said on this subject by the noble lord the President of the Board of Control. He denied that the charges against the East India Company contained in a work by a Mr. Shaw, and published thirty years ago —and which were read by the honourable member for Surrey (Itir. Drummond) were true as regarded the company at the present moment. The hon. gentleman then read an extract from the work of Mr. Mills, the author of " India,' in which he eulogised the conduct of the company as retarded their administration in India. The hon. gentleman read another extract from Basil Hall's work to the earns effect. He then said that he would support the motion of the noble lord (Lord Stanley), unless the Government were disposed to accept the proposition made by the right hon. baronet the mem ber for Carlisle (Sir James Graham) which he looked upon as a most statesmanlike one. (Einar-) Mr. LIDDELL concurred in the view taken on the question by the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Graham), as he was anxious that a strict check should be kept on the Indian Minister. No notice was taken as to how the local councils in India were to be appointed. He should like to hear from the President of the Beard of Control, in the course of the night, how the local councils were to be appointed. Lord GODERICH said that the principle of complete and entire responsibility of the future Minister for India had been decided on, and also that he should be assisted by a council. He trusted that the person appointed to he Minister, if he had not special and particular knowledge cf the affairs of India himself, should be assisted by a council composed of persons who would give him the best and most reliable information. But he could not bring himself to believe that the plan of election, as sketched out by his noble friend opposite (Lord Stanley) would give the Minister such assistance as he most needed. He thought that for such assistance they could look to the Crown alone. It seemed to him that the noble lord re tained all the vices of the existing system of governing India, without any of its advantages. The present Court of Proprietors bad the adiantage of meeting io a body, of having papers laid before them, and of discussing Indian subjects, but at the same time that all these pe culiar advantages, and the body enjoying them, were to be swept away, they were told that it was desirable to retain the principle upon which they were elected on behalf of a body of men who would have zone of their advantages, Then they were to have as consti tuents retired Indian officers, but they were an eeelusive body, and he could not think it wise to give them any power in the election of the council. In this ccuntry, election had nothing to do with executive appointments, but his noble friend had gone out of his way to secure a constituency which was by no means calculated to secure a council such as they wanted. The plan of nomination by the Crown bad been in operation foi five years, and they had heard no complaints. All judicial nominations were made by the Crown, and yet there were no ap pointments less objectionable. There was a very impor tant question, namely, what share the Home Govern ment was to take in Indian affairs. The best policy was to leave the fullest discussion to the local authorities upon local details ; but that would not be the case if they bad an independent council ; and these being his views, he could not vote for the resolution of his noel() friend. Mr. BAILLIE said, that if the arguments of the noble lord were to have any weight, they would amount to this, teat the members of an elected council could not be trusted with the Government of India, became they would be unfit to be trusted with State secrets. Some animadversions had been made upon the nature of elective constituency proposed, but he thought such a constituency would have a great interest in the geed government of India. If men invested their money upon security of property in India, if that property was lost to thie country, it was clear the owner would be the loser, and he would therefore have a direct interest is the welfare of the Indian Government. (Hear, hear.; If they were to have any constituency at all, he did not see how they could have a better than that which the Government had selected. The hon. gentleman the mem ber for Devon port, in a long speech about anything but the resolution,—(laughter)—attacked the Court of Di rectors, and said that all the praise was due to the offi cials of the Court, and not to the Board of Directors ; he might just as well my that all the praise was due to the clerks and not to the chief of the Foreign-Office. (Hear.) It was said that officers coming home from India would not canvass the constituency; but those gentlemen would not be required to do so; for they would be the parties to be selected by the Government ; and it would be gentlemen representing the finance and the commerce of the country wh) would have to appeal to the consti tuency, and very useful members they would be. The only manner in which the Minister could be made re sponsible would be by having details of every transac tion of the Indian Government. Civilians were sent out to g.:vern I,toa with despotic powers, and the only security they could have that those powers would not be abused was tc have a detailed account of every trans action, howevereinall, and this was the case at present. He alluded to a recent report respecting Pegu as an illustration. It gave an account of how the province was flourishing and how the revenue was increasing. But ooe of the means of revenue was a poll - tax , estab lished long before we dial th7e Country ; a poor man was pressed for it andeould not pay it; he went out and sold hie children for a few rupees with which he paid his tax. This gave us an insight into the real condition of the people there, and it was only by such details that they could get that insight. (hesr, hear.) Mr. V. SMITH regretted the extraneous subjects which had been introduced into debates. Hon. and right hon. members who had neglected previous occa sions of expressing their views came down upon a par ticular resolution and gave (expression to their general opinions, as the right hon. gentleman the member for Carlisle had done that evening. He admitted the right hen. gentleman who introduced this b:11 was not open to such a charge, for upon everylresolution he had made a speech of intense, and free from personalities. (hear, hear.) What they wanted was an independent cone cll. He did riot' believe that these nominated mem bers could be so dependent and so base as some seemed to suppose. (Rear.) The right honourable gentleman (Sir J. Graham) hsd represented thorn as ravens with their months opus, waiting for something from the minister; but this was a degree of turpitude which was nut to be e steectecl. But since 1853 they had actually had the e xperience of these nominated members, and everyone admitted that the result was most satis factory—(hear, hear)--and why, he would ask, should not future nominees be equal!! independent ? As to election, it was a mere resort, and n• ,t a very desirable one, for the purpose, it was said, of securing independ ence to the Crown. :f gentlemen were nominated for hfe, they would be perfectly independent. The right hoc. gentleman said the constituencies proposed were as good as any constituencies could be. What were they ? First, the proprietors of Best India Stock—a eone;.ituet Cy to which every one objected. An hon. eetetlewan (C. lonel Sykes) .had given a very good proof of what teat constituency was when ho said it took him seven years to canvass them before he secured his elec tion, and that election cost him 2,2381. (Rear, hear.) Sir C. Metcalfe, and every one examined before the committee of 1853, spoke against it. The next con stitueecy was the railway proprietors, who were said to have an interest in Wife So they had ; they were in terep ted in high lures; but the people of India were in terested in low fares. (Rear.) The third and last pro posal was, that the servants of the company should have votes, which would be making the servants appoint the masters. This applied to existing servants as well as to retired servants. If a candidate applied to a railway proprietor, for instance, he would say that he isanted a higher guarantee for his line ; and, if the candidate would vote for that additional guarantee, he would sup port his candidature ; and, if not, he would oppose him. The same would be the case in canvassing retired officers, who would want their pensions increased. Such cases as these were continually coming before the autho r:ties now. The Crown, he believed, would have no difficulty in finding a sufficient number of proper and independent men, even supposing them all to be nomi nated. (Hear.) Mr. CUMMING BRUCE complained of the spirit of party which had been suffered to creep into these debates. A great and respected statesman, Lord Metcalfe, had long ago predicted the evil which would result from the direct action of that house in the affairs of India; he, there fore, wished to have such a council as would command the confidence of the house. They were not called upon at that moment to discuss the details as to the mode in which the elections should take place, although the speech of the right hon. gentleman the member for Car lisle might have led away the house to suppose that such was the case. They lived in hopes of quieter times again, and then they would, no doubt, see once more that apathy on the part of the public which they had formerly witnessed with respect to India. He thought there ought to be some council which would be a check upon the minister, because they might perchance be placed once more under a psuedo-Whig Government, such as they had lately had, who would support a council which would be guilty of all sorts of corruption ; no, he would not say corruption, but all ports of mis. takes. (Rear, hear, and laughter.) In the course of these debates many suggestions had been made as to the manner in which the council might be made moat useful and most independent. Now, it was quite clear that, after all, the greatest portion of the Government must be carried on in India. and any plan which united the active and vigorous judgment and experience of those connected with the locel government with the home government would of itself improve the constitu tion of that government. He, therefore, ventured to add one more suggestio❑, which, however, did not emanate from himself, lAA had been suggested to him by an offi cer of great experience in India, namely—that the go vernors and councils of the several presidencies, and the chief commissioners of the Put.jaula and our other great provinces in India, should have each the power of ap pointing a member of the council, coming, as these gen tlemen would do, direct from the scene of action—ac quainted, as they would be, with the local wants and requirements of their respective presidencies and pro• vincea—and chosen, as no doubt they would be, because they were the best men that could be sent, he could not help thinking that they would form a useful, practical, and independent element of the council. If they had such an element in the council, these schemes of annexation which had been so pertinaciously carried out by the Board of Control against the constant remon strances of the Court of Direotors, and which were the real cause of the mutiny, would be prevented in future. (Rear, hear.) It was important that such an element should be given to the people of India themselves, and that the policy announced in the despatch of Lord Ellen borough should be practically carried into effect. He approved entirely of the mixed principle cf nomination and election, and he thought that the retired civil and military officers engaged in Itedia would form a very use ful constituency. The plan of the noble lord the member for the city of London did not secure that independence in the council which even the Minister of India must, for his own sake, desire. Remember how very rapidly Presidents of the Board of Control were changed—(hear) —and surely the new President would always feel happy to find in the council, on his coming into office, men at once experienced and independent, on whose assistance and public spirit he could rely. He trusted the noble lord would not, in this case, yield to the suggestions of the noble lord (Lord J. Russell), but that he would ad here to the plan he had proposed, and he was prepared, for one, to give his cordial assent to, and divide in its support. Colonel SYKES said a gnat variety of topics bad been imported into the debate, and if he followed other speakers he trusted he would not be considered singular. He believed the policy they were engaged in carrying out was equally dangerous to England and to India, and he foresaw nothing but mischief until he heard the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in which, replying to the question, " What are to be the func' ions of the new council ?" he said they were to be those of the present Court of Directors, and that they would, in fact, initiate all Indian measures. If the right honourable gentleman adhered to that declaration, and carried it out, be saw hope of safety yet, and especially in financial matters, for the Minister would not be able to spend a single shilling without the consent of his council. He saw also in it a pro tection against the carrying out of such nefarious schemes as that of the Oude bankers to plunder the Vizier, and which was only defea*ed by the independence of the directors at home. (Hear.) A Mioister was said some times to be responsible; but what was the fact? He was only responsible when he happened not to have a majority. The late Mr. Hume endeavoured, during several successive sessions, to bring the Minister to ac count for annexing the territories of the Rjah of Sat tara, but the majority of the Minister always shielded him. Ministerial responsibility was therefore not a reality. They came now to the question of how this small council of 15 was to be elected. Was it to be wholly nominated by the Crown, or partly nominated and partly elected? One-third would be nominees ac cording to the proposition as it stood. The rest were to be elected by persons who were decried in all kinds of ways as being altogeths r unreliable for the purposes of the election. Of the 1,600 or 1,700 stockholders of the Company, while about 300 of them were certainly ladies, the majority of the remainder were parties who had lived in India, and knew the country and all about it. If those persons were unworthy of confidence, how was it that they had been trusted for 75 years to exer cise that very function of election in the Court of Direc tors ? As a rule, could it be said they had not made judicious and useful selections in their appointment of directors ? Of the 18 directors of which the board was composed, 6 were military men, 3 were bankers—a most useful element in the composition of the board as regarded finance-6 civil servants, men of experience, 2 lawyers, and 1 naval man. He would ask whether that consti tution did not combine the requisite variety of talent, and combine it, too, in the proper proportions I If the trust confided to that board had not been abused, who should it be thrown over ? The noble lord the member for London had endeavoured to cast odium upon it by calling up its former character as a trading associa tion. That character, however, it had long since been deprived of, and it now existed merely as a poli tical body • but even if the fact were not so, how could it be degraded by the charge of its engaging in opera tions of commercial enterprise ? On the contrary, so long as the merchant princes of England continued to hold their present high place in public esteem, such an a-sociation with commerce could only do them honour. Now as regarded the patronage to be exercised by the Council of India, he was willing to agree that one-half should be thrown open to competition, and that the either half should be distributed by the Indian Govern ment in such a manner as would prove most beneficial to the Indian service. If the proposition, however, of the noble lord, for a council partly nominative and partly elective, should not be carried, he was of opinion that the next best measure would be one of nomination by the Crown, under the condition of review by Par liatnent ; and as to appointments he thought the best way would be for the council to recommend to the Minister, who would thereby be relieved from any un due odium that might attach in any case. The army of India ought, in his judgment, to be under the council rather than under the Crown ; for, though they were all proud of their loyalty, still circumstances might arise in which they would be out at elbows with royalty, The British army existed only so long as the Mutiny Act existed, but the army of India was a permanent in stitution, and unless they were now on their guard it might one day be made an instrument in accomplishing he violent subversion of our constitution. In conclu sion he would urge the noble lord to abide by the reso lution, and not in any way to recede from the principle shich was involved in it. Meat., hear.) Lord STANLEY said he just wished to state, before the debate closed, as it had been said that this was a constituency which he had proposed, that he had not proposed it or pledged the Government to it. He only mentioned it while describing the difficulties of the point, aid the scle meaning he bad was this—that if the house should approve of the principle of election, there were materials but of which the necessary conditions could bo framed. (Hear, beer.) It was not necessary that they should travel beyond the letter of the resolution. The resolution stated, in effect that it was expedient that the council should be partly nominative and partly elective. The intention of those words was clear, and he dis claimed most positively that the principle of election at all involved the principle of representation. They were of opinion that some check should be devised against the principle of uncontrolled nomination by the Crown, and it that could be had, he thought it mattered very little whether or not a representative character was acquired by the council. (Hear.) One of the suggestions thrown out was, that every member of the council should be in some sense elected, but subject to the approval of the House of Commons, That proposition was, however, too complex in its character. He would not be under stood to say that the Government pledged themselves not to admit any kind of constituency, but they could not do so if, on the whole, the inconveniences of such a plan were greater than its advantages. But the Govern inept desired to place some restriction on the uncon trolled nomination of the Crown. (Hear.) In the ap pointment of the council, devise how you might, the Government desired that some other parties might be consu:t besides the Ministers of the Crown. Upon that proposition he wat ready to take the sense of the house—(hear)—but considering what had passed, the Government did not wish to pledge themselves to more than that. Lord PALMERSTON thought that what the noble lord had stated in another period of the evening, when he was shadowing out those constituencies, ho had materially strengthened the objections against his present proposition. He (Lord Palmerston) was not therefore surprised, after the objections made to this constituency, that the noble lord had not ventured to prap.ise it to the house. Tho speech of the right lion. baronet (Sir J. Graham) was not in harmony with the manner in which he argued against the principle pf election. He said he was prepared to vote for a resolution which embodied that principle. He at tempted to getoutof that inconsistencybya play upon words; for he said the Crown might nominate as councillors per sons who at present were acting in the capacity of directors, and that thereby he embodied the principle of election. But now he proposed that the council and the President, or Secretary of State, as he might be called, were to choose three men out of which the Crown was to select one. He (Lord Palmerston) should like to know how the Crown was to make this selection except by the advice of thuPresident himself. (Hear.) So that he was the first to overrule and paralyse the council; he was to select three names himself, and then go to the Sovereign, and advise her to select one. But if the right lion; baronet meant that the President was to have only one voice out of 15, then he was establishing, on the part of the council, that principle of self-election which was the great abuse once complained of in our mu nicipal bodies, and which Parliament abolished. He (Lord Palmerston) would beg the committee to recollect that we were living, fortunately for ourselves, under a constitu tional monarchy, and not under a republic. And what was the principle of a constitutional monarchy? It was that in every act the Crown should have a responsible adviser ; but now it was proposed that the council should be elected by an irresponsible body, and not in accordance with any principle of the British constitution. They were proposing to abolish the Board of Directors because that body was irresponsible, and at the same time asking the house to adopt a principle of an opposite nature, and not in harmony with the British constitution. (Hear.) They were propos ing a council not elected by a responsible minister, who might be taken to task for the appointment. The whole proposition was anomalous, and was a return to that state of things which Parliament had already abolished as an abuse. (Hear.) The member for the West Riding stated, in the clearest possible manner, that the council they were de sirous of establishing was intended to be one to advise, but not to overrule or control the minister. How could any mi nisterbe responsiblefor his department if he was to be over ruled by others who were appointed without any concur rence on the part of the Crown? But if it was said that he was to be pro-eminent in all matters then what was the use of this distinction ? The council would not be respon sible, and they might select through favouritism or con cert among themselves three very inefficient men, and the Queen would be obliged to take one of them. The Govern ment were particularly the guardians of the constitution of the country,and their measures ought to be in harmony with that constitution. He held that all officers in con nexion with the executive ought to be appointed by the constitutional advisers of the Crown. Was a judge a less important functionary than one of the supposed council I Yet his appointment was not left in the hands of his fel low judges. If a perfectly independent council could not be appointed, he thought it would be better to continue the present system till Parliament be better advised. Mr. GLADSTONE said he was sorry that the proposi tion of the right bon. baronet the member for Carlisle, met with such an unkind reception at the hands of the noble lord (Lord Palmerston). No one could have observed the course of the discussion without noticing that there were strong objections to both propositions— to the prin ciple of election by an extended constituency on the one band, and to the principle of nomination on the other. ( Hear, hear.) The speech of the noble lord (Lord Stanley) although it was well received, as it deserved to be, drew forth the warm feelings of the house when, with imparti ality and candour he stated the strong difficulties he felt in attempting to apply the popular principle of election, and also his objection to the principle of uncontrolled nomination by the Crown. (Hear, hear.) It was ex tremely difficult to adopt one or the other (Hear, hear.) The question was how you were to reconcile nomination by the Crown with the weight and independence of coun cil. That independence must ,not be a nominal indepen dence. but an independence with weight and efficiency, and free from suspicion. But this would be impossible if the council were appointed on the principle recommended by the late Government, for that would make them subject to removal at will after the lapse of a few years. He could, however, understand what made the late Govern ment make that proposal. They saw that they had but the choice of two difficulties. They saw that if they ap pointed them during good pleasure, there would be consi derable danger lest the office should lapse into the nature of a comfortable sinecure, and you might be burdened with functionaries who, though competent at first, might cease to be so through the lapse of years, and yet be un willing to resign office. (Hear, hear.) The plan proposed by his right hon. friend was different, and the manner in which it had been received afforded a fair augury of its ultimate acceptance. He (Mr. Gladstone) was not pre pared to admit the principle laid down by the noble lord (Lord Palmerston) that all acts of the Government under a constitutional monarchy should be done by a responsible Minister. He admitted that those acts which were placed in the hands of the Executive should be done by a respon sible Minister, but there were municipal and other acts which it was important even for the maintenance of free dom to keep out of the hands of the Executive. It was not for the purpose of overruling and hampering the President that it was proposed to give him an independent council, but to secure a full expression of opinion from the best and most adequate authorities, from men fully competent to give such advice as would guide the President, not con trol him, is his decision. As he understood it, a certain number of names were to be presented, out of which the Crown was to form a judgment. Ho must say that he ob. jected both to the proposition of the noble lord (Lord Pal merston) on the one side, and to the proposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the other, while he agreed in the soundness of the principle contended for by his right hon. friend (Sir J. Graham). Mr. ROEBUCK objected to the proposal of the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Graham). They all knew that an ap pointment by the Crown meant an appointment by the Minister. who was responsible to the house; so that in effect the appointment by the Minister was an appoint ment by the house. He should therefore vote against the proposition of the right hon. baronet. (Hear, hear.) Sir F. BARING said the question was whether the council should be solely appointed by the Crown, or by some other mode independent of the Crown. That was the question. The proposal of the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Graham) seemed to be a good mode of escaping out of the difficulty. His noble friend (Lord Palmerston) had called on them to guard the constitution in this matter ; but they had to recollect that India had an arbitrary government. The Secretary of State for India was under no such con trol as regarded the army as the Secretary for War was under to the Treasury and that house, and he was under no control in matters of finance. Therefore it was that they must go out of their way to get an independent council to control the Secretary of State. Lord J. RUSSELL said hon. members should make up their minds as to the proposition upon which they meant to divide, but he thought it was out of the question to ask a division upon a proposition which had one sense for one member and another sense for another. What he wanted to know was, whether the Ministry adopted the proposi tion of his right hon. friend (Sir J. Graham). His own opinion was unchanged, and he should certainly vote against the propositions. Sir J. GRAHAM said a few words in explanation, to the effect that what he proposed was that the council should be partly elected and partly nominated, in opposi tion to the proposal of the noble lord that the council should be nominated by the Crown. He had proposed no resolution, nor opened his mouth during the entire dis cussion until that evening, and he should be extremely sorry if the Government adopted his proposition without giving it their serious consideration. After a few words in explanation from Lord J. RUS SELL, which were inaudible, Sir C. WOOD reminded the committee that the effect of the vote they were about to give would be the adoption of the principle of nomination proposed by his noble friend the member for the city of London, or that of the Government, that it should be partly by nomination and partly by election. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I do not rise to defend the member for Carlisle, who is always well prepared to defend himself ; but I wish to defend the com mittee from the charge of disingenuousness, because if there is one characteristic stronger than another which has marked the proceedings of the committee it is the bona fides with which it has discussed, from the first, these resolutions, and the spirit with which every suggestion from either side has been entertained, with respect and with that fair spirit of discussion and investigation which has very much advanced the object we have in view. Now the noble lord the member for London has not placed fairly before us the issue on which we are going to decide. He calls on the government to say whether they are in favour of the proposition of the right hon. gentleman the member for Carlisle or whether th e y are i n f avour o f th e constitu encies mentioned by the President of the Board of Control in his first observations. What he has a right to call on us to do is, to give an opinion on the fifth resolution. When these resolutions were proposed it was held con venient that we should decide on point after point, without unnecessarily connecting one point with an other. And although my noble friend the President of the Board of Control, in his first observations this evening, has adverted to other resolutions, and has expressed the general opinions of the government respecting them, and although other members of the committee, like the member for Carlisle, have freely offered their suggestions to the house, still we are never to forget that the issue at stake on the point we are to decide is really the fifth resolution —that we are not to decide on suggestions made by mem bers of the committee in the course of the discussion, nor on remarks made by the President of the Board of Con trol, but that in the vote that we are approaching we are about to decide on the fifth resolution, which de clares that it is expedient that the council should be partly nominated and partly elected. Now, in asking the house to assent to that resolution, no one can pre tend to say that in doing so they are bound to support the seventh resolution any more than they are bound to sup port the proposition of the right hon. member for Carlisle. And when the President of the Board of Control spoke of the seventh resolution, ho spoke in no dictatorial tone, nor as if he wished the house to understand that the Govern ment were pledged to that resolution ; and therefore I maintain that we have only acted in accordance with the general spirit of the proceedings in committee in discussing the resolutions separately, and that the point in discussion does not bind us to assent to the constituency to which the President of the Board of Control adverted, or to sanction the proposition made by the member for Carlisle or any other member. If we vote for this resolution and against that of the noble lord we shall advance our proceedings. All to which we wish to pledge the opinion of the com mittee by this resolution is, that the council should be formed of mixed elem en ts, and if the committee approves of that general principle, and will support the fifth reso lution, my opinion is, that we shall so advance our pro ceedings that this evening will by no means be fruitless of results. I therefore hope that this fifth resolution will be c trried. (Hear, hear.) Mr. GLADSTONE rose to order;and observed that they were not, by the vote they were about to give , called on to adopt the words of the sth resolution ; they were asked merely to say that certain words in it shall be allowed to remain there. The committee then divided. For the amendment lB5 Againstit Majority against the amendment Lord GODERICH said as it was desirable that the Go vernment should haire an oppoituui ty of considering the effect of the proposal made by the right hon. gentleman (Sir J. Graham) as to the manner in which the council should be constituted, he moved that the chairman report progress. Mr. BARROW said as the question had been fully de bated, he protested against the subject being farther dis cussed. He therefore objected to the motion of the noble lord. _ Mr. RICH contended that they ought to have time to consider the whole question. 71."Keconarnittee then divided, when there appeared— For reporting progress Against it 239 Majority —B4 Lord J. RUSSELL thought that the proposal of his tight hon. friend ought to be further considered, and there fore he should say " No" to th e reso l u ti on before the corn tnittee, but he would not advise that the committe should divide upon the question. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQUER said that the committee was only pledged to the fact that the couu eil should be a mixed one, and therefore it was only fair that they shoot I pass the resolution. Lord J. RUSSELL asked if the sight bon. gentleman was going to pr ocee d w i t h t h e 7 t h resolut i on ? Th CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the 6th resolution must come first. (Laughter.) The Govern ment would take care to pass resolutions in accordance with those already agreed to. The sth resolution was then agreed to without a division. PEACE PRESERVATION ACT (IRELAND) CON- TINUANCE BILL. Oa the motion that this bill be read a second time, Mr. BAGWELL opposed it. He moved that the bill be read a second time that day six months. Lord NA AS said that, from the state of certain districts in Ireland, it was absolutely necessary to continue this bill for two years longer, but it did not interfere with the law. He thought it would be unwise if the powers given by this bill were taken away from the Government, who could not, without them, be responsible for the peace of certain dis tricts in Ireland. An application from two districts to put in force the powers of this bill had only recently been made to the Government. He hoped, therefore, that the amendment would be withdrawn. After some further conversation, The house divided, when there appeared— For the second reading For the amendment Majority for the second reading...-148 The bill was then read a second time. The Markets and Fairs Bill (Ireland) was, on the motion of Lord NAAS, referred to a select committee. The Confirmation of Executors, &c., Bill passed through committee. The Copyhold Acts Amendment Bill was read a second time. The Friendly Societies Act Amendment Bill went through committee pro forma. The Joint-Stock Companies Act Amendment Bill was road a second time. CHURCHES, &c. (IRELAND) BILL. The house went into committee on this bill, which, as amended, passed through that stage. The bowie resumed. CONSOLIDATION OF JURIES (IRELAND) BILL. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND obtained leave to bring in a bill to consoli late the laws relating to juries in Ireland. The bill was read a first time. The other business on the paper having been disposed of, the house adjourned at 20 minutes to I o'clock. NAVAL AND MILITARY INTELLIGENCE. The General Commanding-in -Chief will bold a levee at the Horse Guards on Friday next, at one o'clock. In order to prevent the contagion of measles and small-pox speeding among the troops quartered in Chatham garrison, the authorities have given direc tions for the erection of a large tent on the vacant piece of ground near St. Mary's Barracks, which is to be devoted exclusively to hospital purposes ; and the whole of the children and adults who are now suffering from either small-pox," measles, or any other infectious malady will be removed from the b-arracks to the hospital tent, where they Will be medically treated. By this arrangement it is hoped that no new cases will appear in thezarrisbn. The Glocester, 50, being fitted at Chatham for a receiving ship, is ordered to be taken into the dock vacated by the steamer Dragon, 6, in order to be completed. Tile following appointments were made yesterday at the Admiralty : Martin Roberts, second master, to the Coast Guard ; W. N. Brabe, surgeon, additional, to the Waterloo ; W. H. Cameron, surgeon, additional, to the Illustrious ; Robert lursle, surgeon, addi tional, to the Nile ; Cunningham Atchison, amis. , taut-surgeon, to the Orion ; George Bellamy, as sistant-surgeon, to the Hydra ; Edward O'Connell, assistant-surgeon, to the Argus ; T. B. Martin, as sistant-surgeon, to the Racer ; H. P. Brenan and Henry M. Bernard, clerks to the Caesar ; Edward A. Dyer, assistant-clerk, to the Fisgard ; and C. H. J. Colling, assistant-clerk, to the Omar. Country Markets. ,D-JiNg 11. Y. I. 48 1 Oats, per qr 24 34 48 I Peas, Partridge .......43 47 44 White 40 42 4 I Boiling 4l 47 40 Dun 43 46 44 Beans, Tick 37 3'9 132 Harrow ticks 37 41 73 Mazagan 34 31 73 1 Ditto, new 34 37 CHEMISE° Wheat, white old,per s. s. qr.4o new 40 red, old 37 new 36 Barley 34 Chevalier 38 Grinding 28 Malt 70 Chevalier 72 NOILWICH-J,NE 12. There was a good supply of wheat, but the demand was very languid, and, although prices declined is per qr, but little business resulted. Other articles were in limited de mand at declining prices. AVERAGE PRICES. Wheat, wLite 46s to 48s red 4oa to 44s Barley, grinding 28s to 32s Beans 40s to 41s Oats 231 to 26s Peas... 42s to 44i COLCHESTER- JUNE 12. Prices to-daywore as follow :—Wheat, white, 46s to s(b; red, 42s to 465; barley, —s to s ; oats, 26s to 30s ; beans, Hazagan, 38s to 40a; middle and small, 42s to 445; peal. white, 42s to 44s ; grey, 44s to 465. Official Statement of the Quantities of Corn, ko., received in the port of London, from the following ports, float June 7 to June 12, both inclusive. 446-4,111 gg - c.x .-346 15 - 551 . 1 3 ; - - 1815 10 '( 303 Colchester Harwich Leigh &fahloti - 1 142) - KIRKCALDY—JuIia 12. Wo had small supplies of wheat and oats to-day, which sold at much the same as last week. No barley in the market. Wheat. Barley. I Oats. I Beans. First 46s Od I—s 01 —I Od i Os 03 Second 435 Od I —s Od 27s Od I Oa 0 1 I Third 349 Od —5 Od 23s OJOs Uti COAL MAR 1.-JUNE 14. Prices of Coals per ton al the close of the market Walleend, tto. s. d. Middle W. Hartley 14 6 Bell's Primrose ll 9 Howard's West Hartley Netherton 14 6 Tanfield Moor Butes 12 6 Wylam Longridge's Wst Hartleyl4 6 Tyne Main 12 01 Holywell l4 61 Benson. l4 9 Whitworth l4 a Hengh Hall l5 0 ...... H e tt on l7 " Lambton 16 6 i South Kelloe 1 6 litinwick l4 G oe f or th l4 " Ridd e ll l4 3 0 Wharneliffe 14 North Hettos 18 3 ~ 43 ; sold, 31. Walleend, ike. Framwellgate l4 9 ! Harton Ships at market, LOCAL SHARE MARKETL LIVERPOOL-JUNE 14. STOCK EXCHANGE—The market has shown more firm ness to-day, but the amount of business was very erc_ori Dutch Rhenish, 41 B - die --Gracd Trunk of Canada. 1 1 11 4 —Caledonians, 411 6—Blackburn, 9/ 10 —Birkenhea chilt 7 , :1 I—Chester and Holyhead, 17j /—Eastern Countie°' 121 g —Great Western 51 I—L ancashire and Yorkshig: s —East Lancashi r e, 88 1 9i—London and N.„. ( q rt b Western, 94—She ffi eld 38/ 9--Midland, 92i i -- Pt i ° l. British, 12$ _- Sheffield, 22 I—York and North 10 .1 and, 35 s—Leeds Northern, 221 3—Dovers, 20 74 6 —Groat Western of Canada, 18i MANCHESTER, Jura 14. STOCK EXCHANGE.--The market opened firmer, prices were steadily maintained, but there was not 0 3 ,7 1 5 . business, Midlands, 91I—Londons, 92i—Berwiekst: Leeds, 90—Dovers, 20 —Sheffields, 39—London's 72 Fleetwoods, 8i dis. • • PO [Anyzartszmzxr.] —We have read with much pleasur! o . Barry's report on the cure of Indigestion (Dyspepsia), • r " . , lency, Constipation, Nervous, Bilious, and Liver ConiPM ll :di; Cough, Asthma, Consumption, and Debility, without ra ...to tine, by Du Barry's Food. The followi ng ar e a which appear to merit the attention of many : uu." 0 401 47,121.—" Miss Elizabeth Jacobs, of Nazing Iriaarag n ' A ; tham-cross, Herts ; a cure of extreme nervousness, in— rio , tion, gatherings, low spirits, and nervous fancies." b urn 0 01; 48,314.—" Miss Elizabeth Yeoman, Gateacre, near LiverP nu s a cure of ten years' dyspepsia and all the horrors of n ° Q4th irritability." Cure 51, 415.—Oystermouth, Swansea , ne e • August, 1853.—Bilious headaches of frequent ocear re be eu which my wife had been subject to for many years, WO removed by Dui3arry'asalutary Revalenta Arabic ter r cs° E. J. BUTLER. Cure 51,416. Gower, near S August 21, 1853. Thirty years' dreadful suffering rheumatism has been removed by Du Barry's delicious leuta Arabica Food, in five weeks' time.—WthLust Supported by testimonials from the following eelebrate u .4; fessors of Chemistry: Dr. A. Ure; Dr, Sho r l an d; Dr. ; Dr. Campbell ; Dr. Gattiker ; Dr. Wurzer ; Dr. lagr o rt; Lord Stuart de Decies; the Dowager Countess of Castles' ne r Major GM. Thomas King, and man y other resPecta ble n tier sons, whose health has been res t ore d by it, after all means of cure had failed. Suitably packed with full 1 0.3 tions, In canisters, 11b. 2s, 9d.; 21b. 4s. 6d.; 51 % 0 re' 121 b. 225, The 121 b canisters are s e nt carriage frea 77, ceipt of Post-office order. Barry Du Barry, and r„A- Regent-street, London. Important Caution againsb ellothe r sit 511 dangers of sparious imitations.—The Vice-Chant °b, William Page Wood granted an lajanction oa the 10th 31 0 1854, against Alfred Hooper Nevill for imita ting Barry's Revalenta Arabica Foc (1." BIRTHS. ,l o =th BOND—On the 11th inst., at Romansleigh Rectory', . 4- ` Devon, the wife of the Rev. J. H. Bond, of a son. p 0 l, ' KERR—On the 12th inst., at Falkner-square, LiverP Mrs. R. Ken the 9th i rr, of a son. ' I h WY . MOLLETT—Onst , at Northfleet, Kent, the of J. W. Monett, Esq., of a daughter. MARRIAGES. - ai., 1/ COTT —MAITLAND—On the 10th inst., at the 'iv church, Loughton, Essex John, son of W. Gott. S t o P of Little Woodhouse Leeds, to Harriet Mar'', da" of W. W. Maitland, Esq., of Loughton. "P niber t°ll MoonE—Durrorr—On the 10th inst., at .....1- -- , to Church, Liverpool, J. L. Moore, Esq., of " " r ipl,er Sarah, daughter of F. G. Dutton, Esq., of Orre ......4 race, near Wigan. ' , j DEAT H S, -..L. ii ' ..........- -- O A. . BEATTIE - On the 10th inst. , at Glasg6W, the Be v ' Beattie, D.D., M.D., aged 75 . , , . crota er, BUXTON —On the 11th inst., at Colne House, Norfolk, Sir E. N. Buxton, aged 46. up il• .° CnampTort —On the 10th inst., at Merrion-squa re, Sir P. Crampton, ..atot Donor - M D., aged 69. RILEY--On the 10th inst., Mr. R. Riley, of Manchester, aged 65. . __ _ • --- - - - YO VSI k.oNDoN : Pri nted and Published by MIIII.DO / 4 0 , of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at 2712 S" ° L " e a ; g at 1 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the 3avol, to the of Middlesex, Tuesday, Juno 15, 1858. .1 LAS'. V c • Ora-dons will take aunt 2l et. Tipketa rn klyare MR. Dane by , "exY even Aamission lit th e. /to entnier, B. ~__ S T. kosiiW;; ind . t(ghl 4ced4►pop; from ?Ant al E 1 bm~uion t1in4 4 „,„_ 34 mroducid liu rneYous 63ri lmen t , 41 1 R A; It - 8 ce c u ck AT TRE :one IlltntSD A C AROL., Stalls (nu __ u nreserve,l Publ lwre. tt7:OITA at 2 1 64161 u fp,sh Il.tnost sittb Coueeet 541unees o a, 3,17( I, CTUREP • quarter pa Ope Ds• unrr .A. Der, Stra :A1td . ,... • forma V e te i d by•th alentino at treated arts jama s u, _ ,' , adet a ,... id • IL " la to be lit th e , - 6 •kark et. ' 7 ~............__:. .. t _____ .......;__ e. ' : r r i 4 , E . MON h laGalt In thc iZ t 'reen Feu ioaliat i i s t t °, It Illo f] u Doceint • ,tkrable to is *m a w' I,_ and t Mward wi ll . r 11 1 date. • •r, ,'. nolleitors, 7 M ASV iles. t ET A ..._ Londoi • - 71 on adys AL T .B. Pone - "wired with cleducte 1 4 A. W cir l i rroilca is 111 6 Deed el , 1 11 be held' 4.trIiSDAT i t c _on Precise] Lo d , re] Ri g i ti r ecters and i tu win be p Zie to:rector ' 4l2 4in In °ill ()RI Estal Paratnt: • Solicitor, ! .4 Pital of 0 emus fro Vie -tenth' 'wed amoni %At_ 1 T h roat P ii,4 - rstits of divLilo ?,The BOMLI 7 Dv cent- 0 4 ' n,Slic , Ilik ed IE! . se ll 7.a. and g h .,Tes at ass AK lir wl.thl liremh deitb b e 1,11.848' irt HE RtllPONverel I VIVO, 'ED?* "a• Henn towel Kb J ohn Elliot $ P roflissor 1 ,!'l4 'ft , 1 11 L 't , d .ate, t r , 41 ,4, Gn o Th lB6o It next .. Pulley taken tut th , t , t 18 88 5 44 1- 4 • 444 5 • ,* 140, 6 lasi 5 The follow alal Life Etociel (, it ic y/to-third • !, Years. 4, -a tssubscri 1 t. wrest] '• ono blind! ib, *M ug]innnt tAile L t bolit one I. the Its ;hs hurt tut tor p ros , 142, SII 142 St , emu NeLF-: on thl ;`,..!!. on the LBtr:a vicious Inhood * l :turi en II 117 . ./.111 Plaints, Z9,ll ht i ly t r 1 41; l e ttt r i v re eta ie t at 4 : ti l itan r e t i l eilthpa eei he; 4 4cea r I. 4 .,, s _Meh have orC ie ; c an bu d: 1 0, 11 11e t u ri ,, 11: 1 ;Phrgii 4 43' t oroth 1k 44 4 !nin e enur • Nbligh Ita ly be l e i to Ott, 4o ' l 14 1/%4 'W c %to_ rd.„„ e 'ci ttet ni ator t. Oliboo • A