The Sun. — London, England, 1858-05-05 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PAR LIAMENT HOITSE OF LORDS.—(YEsn-ARDAy.) - - The LORD CHANCRLLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clock. Lord RAVENSWORTH gave notice that on the third reading of the Ecclesiastical Commission Bill, he should move a clause to the effect that due consideration be given by the commission to the spiritual destitution in certain dioceses ; and that a provision should be made for the same from the funds in the hands of the Commissioners. PRIVATE BILLS. On the motion of Lord REDESDALE the Newport (Salop) Markets, Town-hall, &c., Bill was read a second time. The Chester Gas, the Nottingham Gas, Madras Irrigation and Canal, Dundalk and Enniskillen Rail way (amendments), and the Sculcoates and Kingston upon-Hull Gas bills were read a third time and passed. ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION BILL. The Earl of DERBY in moving the second reading of this bill said he should occupy bat a short time in reca pitulating as briefly as possible the objects of the present bill. The noble earl having alluded to acts that had already passed the Legislature in the reign of Wm. IV., and since that time, for the purpose of rendering all church pro perty available for ecclesiastical purposes, said that pre vious to the act of 7 and 8 of William he had the honour of carrying through Parliament a bill which had the effect of suppressing a certain number of ecclesiastical dignitaries, and causing the revenues ari-dng therefrom to merge into a common fund for ecclesiastical purposes. Under 6 and 7 of William it was provided that certain sums should be paid out of the richer sees to form a fund, out of which certain additions should be made to the poorer sees, in order to raise them to a certain fixed average. By this act a septennial revision of the sees was provided for. By let, 2d, and 3d Vic., the separate estates of the various dignitaries were vested in the Ecclesiastical Commission. A common fund was provided by those acts, which was made applicable to certain small benefices. Another act commonly called Sir B. Peel's Act, created about 200 new ecclesiastical districts, the annual income of each of which was set down at 1501. ; and in order to carry out that object commissioners were appointed, who were empowered to raise money, and they increased their power s by borrowing 600,000/. from Queen Anne's Bounty. After a short discussion the bill was read a second time, and referred to a select committee. Their lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS.--(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Lords' amendments to the Gosport Water Bi were considered and agreed to. The following bills Were read a third time and passed : —East Suffolk Railway; London, Brighton, and South .)oast Railway (Capital, &c.) ; Vale of Towy Railway ; Ware, Hadhara, and Buntingford Railway. The following bills were further considered and ordered to be read a third time :—Blackburn Railway ; Blyth Harbour and Dock ; Horsham Turnpike Trust ; Sufferance Wharves, Port of London ; Stokes Bay Rail way and Pier. THE PRESS IN INDIA. Mr. MAGUIRE presented a petition from the in habitants of the Madras Presidency, in India, agains the Indian Press Act. SUEZ CANAL. Mr. ROEBUCK gave notice that he should, on the lilt of June, call the attention of the house to the pro posed Suez Canal. MANNING THE NAVY. Sir C. NAPIER gave notice that he should on this day week move an address to her Majesty for the ap pointment of a royal commission to inquire into the manning of the navy, &c. THE PRIVILEGES OF MEMBERS. Lord HOTHANI gave notice that he should on this day fortnight ask the house to agree to a resolution to the following effect :—that it is contrary to the usage and derogatory to the dignity of this house, that any of its members should be per mitted to bring forward, promote, or advocate in this hones any proceedings or measure in which they may have acted or been engaged, in consideration of any pecuniary fee or reward. (Hear, bear.) EDUCATION. Lord J. RINSELL gave notice that he should to morrow ask a question relative to the appointment of a Royal Commission in connection with national,"educa tion agreed to by the house on a former occasion. _ EAST INDIA (SUMS REPAID). Sir F. BARING moved for a return of the sums re paid by the East India Company in the year 1857-58, and of the manner in which such sums have been appro priated.—Agreed to. LOANS, ag., TO FOREIGN STATES. .... _ _ . Mr. J. EWART moved for an account of all sums of money paid or advanced by way of loan, subsidy, or otherwise, to any foreign State, from the year 1854 up t the present time, arranged a;phabetically, showing the total amount now owing by each (in continuation of Par liamentary Paper, No. 466, of Session 1854).—Agreed to. THE MILITIA. Capt. GRAY asked the Secretary for War what were the intentions of Government in regard to the regiments of militia now at Aldershot, and whether such regiments as had been furnished with the Enfield rifle would be continued in an embodied state for such a length of time as would afford them a fair opportunity of being brought to a state of efficiency in the use of that weapon. General PEEL said it was not the intention of her Majesty's Government at present to disembody any more regiments of militia. I3e bad no doubt those regi ments of militia who had been supplied with the Enfield rifle would have an opportunity of perfecting themselves in the efficient use of that weapon. (Hear, hear.) WESTERN BANK OF SCOTLAND. _ _ _ Mr. BRADY asked the Lord.Advoeate, if the direc tors of the Western Bank of Scotland had forfeited (in a legal geese) the right they possessed to circulate bank notes by the failure of the bank ; if so, was it the inten tion of the government to institute an inquiry into the circumstances connected with the failure, with the view of granting for the benefit of the shareholders, a power to said directors to sell the privilege they possessed ! The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in the absence of the Lord Advocate, said he was informed by that gentleman that the directors of the Western Bank of Scotland bad forfeited the right they possessed to circulate hank -notes ; and further, he had to state that it was not the intention of her Majesty's Government to assist the directors in auy way to dispose of the pri ♦ilege they possessed. (Hear, hear.) SPECIAL MISSION TO PORTUGAL. Mr. WHITE asked the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether a special mission was about to be sent to Portugal ; and, if so, whether the Marquis of Bath had been appointed her Majesty's Plenipotentiary to that Court ; and, if so, whether the Government was prepared to lay on the table of the house the probable amount of the expense of such mission '4 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said a special mission was about to be sent to Portugal, and that the Marquis of Bath had been appointed her Ma jesty's Plenipotentiary at that Court. With regard to the expense, when the proper time arrived the expenses incurred would be laid on the table of the house for the purpose of being defrayed. MARRIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER. Mr. SCHNEIDER asked the Secretary for the Colo nies whether her Majesty's Government had received from the Governor of South Australia a copy of a law passed by the Legislature of that colony in the year 1357, for legalising marriage with a deceased wife's sister, and whether the Government intended to advise her Majesty to give her sanction thereto ! Lord STANLEY said a copy of the law referred to bad been received by her Majesty's Government, but as some legal difficulties were supposed to have arisen in reference to it, it had been referred to the legal advisers of the department for the colonies, but their report had not yet been received. NEW FOREIGN OFFICE. Sir J. SHELLEY asked the First Commissioner al Worke, whether the Government had determined upon the erection of a new Foreign Offi ce ; an d , i f so, who was to be employed as the architect I Also, whether the materials recently deposited in the vacant space near Downing-street, were intended for the erection of any public building ! Lord J. MANNERS said her Majesty's Government had not yet determined on building a new Foreign effiee, and consequently no architect had been selected. The materials in Downing-street belonged to the Metro politan Board of Works, and were to be need in altera tions in Victoria-street. POLICE FORCE (IRELAND). Captain ESMONDE asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to bring in a bill for the regulation of the metropolitan police force (Ireland) this session I Lord NAAS said he hoped to be able to introduce such a bill in a few days. MEDITERRANEAN, &c., TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATIONS. Mr. CRAWFORD called the attention of the house to the question of the extension of telegraphic commu nications in the Mediterranean, and with her Majesty" dominions in the East ; and ho moved an address for certain papers, &c. Sir W. FRAZER called attention to the inaccuracies in the telegrams received from India. Mr. HAMILTON said telegraphic communication in India was in its infancy, but ho would give directions that the greatest care should be taken in forwarding the telegrams cor-ect es p)sBible. resolution was agreed to. BALL AND TRANSFER OF LAND (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. WHI TESIDE, in moving for leave to introduce a bill to facilitate the sale and tra ns f er o f l an d i n I re - . i l a n n e r d e , ai d r.g the subject impor t ance. In one of consid era bl e an d dB, England they had " hands books " writt en t o make the s of real property fAmili a. to the public, and letters add r es sed ingeni ous counse to John Bull,litnpressi ng upon h imd by the necessity of sim plifying in fying the laws relating t o land England country. But while theories had been started in the questiob ::;:quer!c. kad assumed a practical shape in Irel and is of the circumstances in the history of that cou ntr y were now painful reminiscences. The confusionyortlit'lcel.: and embarrassment consequent upon it, the encum brance upon land in the country, threw upon the Court of Chancery an enormous amount of business, which a' last that tribunal became unable to dispose of. By the returns which had been laid before Parliament it ap peared that there were nearly 1,000 chancery suits, in most of which the rights of the parties had been fully ascertained and declared, but in which it was found im possible to realise the fruits of a decree, for, in fact, dif. ficulties only commenced after a decree h ad been pro. nounced. It was stated in one of the little tracts to which he had alluded—one written by Mr. Williams — that the idea of the Encumbered Estates Court was sug gested by Mr. Christy, an eminent conveyancer, but he (Mr. Whiteside) understood that the suggestion was made to Sir R. Peel by the present Lord St. Leonards. However, they bad now to deal with the Court and its practical operation in Ireland. The Encumbered Estates Act at first was limited to encumbered estates. All par tial interests, leases for less than 60 years, were excluded. Very speedily, however, the court constituted under the act swallowed up a large portion of the business of that the of Chancery, and at last it became ob vious the court would soon resemble the Court of Chancery, and would be reduced to the condition of that Court be fore the transfer of the business. Accordingly, in 1855, a commission was issued to inquire into the practical operati c on em o m f ie t e h i e eu En e c a u t m i b a er D ed eh E lin st , at a e ed Estates Act in a lr r e e la p n e d rt . That which was not satisfactory to some members, and the report itself was submitted to a committee of that house. That committee, upon which were several of the most distinguished members of the house, presented its report in June, 1856. Meantime, the subject had begun to at tract public attention in this country, and the Encum bered Estates Court was continued by a bill passed from year to year. The present Continuance Act would soon expire, and th© question now to be considered was what course should be taken upon this subject. He had heard it rumoured that the late Government contemplated a measure, but after a diligent search in the office, he had not bean able to find any trace of such a plan. Therefore whatever might be the defects of the measure which he now asked leave to introduce, the present Government was wholly answerable for them, and if there should be any merit in it the merit would be entirely due to them. The first point which he had to consider in dealing with the subject was whether be should bring forward a mere continuance bill or whether, with the ample materials already in his possession, he should endeavour to submit a plan permanent in nature and comprehensive in prin ciple. He thought it would be more respectful to the, house to take the latter course. The princ . ple of the En cumbered Estates Court was to confer a Parliamentary title upon the purchasers of land. The committee that sat in that house differed in opinion on some important principles, but the majority .of them decided that the principle of the Encumbered Estates Act should be ex tended to unencumbered estates. In that state the pre sent Government found the question, and it was desir able to consider what oughtnow to be done. It was im portant to draw the attention of the house to the fact that the sales in that court had gradually and in a re markable way diminished. It appeared from a return which he held in his band, that in the first year of the existence of the court 1,085 petitions were presented to it ; in 1851, 801 ; in 1852, 508 ; in 1853, 488 ; in 1854, 414 ; in 1855, 362 ; in 1856, 273 ; in 1857, 226 ; and from August, 1857, to March, 1858, 145. It was also interesting to observe what had been the case with reference to the presentation of petitions during the last three mon' hs. It appeared that in Feb. 17 pe titions were presented ; in March, 18 ; and in April 10 or 20 at the most. There was an apprehension at one time that the Court for the Sale of Encumbered Estates would become worse than the Court of Chancery. The original staff having consisted of two judges, it was deemed advisable to add a third. One of these was a very learned person, a baron of the Exchequer. The commission considered that that learned person could not discharge the duties of a commissioner and a judge at the same time. The noble lord at the head of the late Government gave a pledge that he should be restored to the Court of Exchequer ; and the right hon. gentleman the member for Stroud (Mr. Horsman), then Chief Se cretary for Ireland, very much to this honour, recom mended a gentleman holding different p slitical opinions from those of the late Government, but eminently qua lified for the place he now filled, as chief commissioner of that court. Since the appointment of that gentleman the arrear of business before the court, whatever it was, had been cleared away altogether, and therefore the house was now in a condition to deal with the court, in which there - was a staff consisting of three commissioners and a master, or fourth commissioner in disguise—that was to say, four judges of eminent abilities—before each of whom there now came only four petitions a month. It might be asked, what did the Government propose to de with the question of the sale and transfer of land ? He answered, that the question of a Parliamentary title had been established by the experience of nine years in Ireland to be highly satisfactory to the people of that country. (Cheers) It had been shown that few, if any, dangers or inconveniences resulted from the con ferring of that title on the proprietors of encumbered estates, and it was now proposed to confer it on the pro prietors of encumbered estates. (Cheers.) It was a 1 fallacy to suppose that in Ireland any danger would re sult from it, for the old Registry Act in force in that country since the time of Queen Anne conferred on the registered owner of an estate a statutable title against any title or legal instrument of a prior date which he did not find on the register. It was clearly proved before the committee to which he had adverted that encumbrances were created on property in Ireland for the sole purpose of bringing the property so encum bered within the practical operation of the Encumbered Estates Act—(hear, hear)—and of obtaining a Parlia mentary title, which would remove difficubise and em barrassments previously affecting the title. If those facts were true, and if it was clear that no greater risk would be run from extending the principle of a Parlia mentary indefeasible title to unencumbered prop-rty than to encumbered property, it was obvious that a principle which applied to the one case ought to be ap plied to the other ; and, accordingly, it was contem• plated by this bill to extend that principle to unencum bered estates. (Cheers.) But there were many other cases that ought to be provided for, and he bad felt that the measure should be undertaken in a comprehensive spirit. It was, therefore, proposed to bring all judicial sales in Chancery within the application of a like prin ciple. It should be recollected that there were sales in the Bankruptcy Court and sales in the Insolvency Court, and when the judges of those courts were asked in the Commission which sat in Dublin whether they would confer a Parliamentary title on property sold in the Bankruptcy and Insolvent Courts, each answered that he would not ; but they admitted that the Encum bered Estates Court might confer an indefeasible title, which they themselves did not dare to do. It had been stated in Parliament that generally sales in the Bank ruptcy or Insolvency Court produced little or nothing, the property being usually bought in by a friend of the bankrupt or insolvent, and the creditors failed to re• ceive the benefit of a bona fide sale in open market. It Was therefore proposed to include all sales of pro perty in the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Courts within the operation of the bill. He must remind the house that this bill would enable A. B. to sell an estate to B. C., without waiting for a decree of Chancery. Any person, without the intervention of a Chancery suit. might go before this Court, to be called the Landed Estate Court, and there make out his title and sell his estate if he thought fit. He had submitted to the house a plan by which facilities would be given to the sale and transfer of land ; and then arose the question what was to be done in the case of owners of property who did not wish to sell, but whose titles were a source of confusion and embarrassment, and to whom it would be a great boon and blessing to have those titles adjudicated upon, so that, though they did not intend to sell their land at the moment, they might have the power to sell or lease it in future. This was a large step in advance, and he frankly admitted that it was not essential to the principle of this measure or to its purpose. But just as it had been shown in the case of the Encumbered Es tates Court that persons entered into encumbrances in order to bring their property within the jurisdiction of that court, so it was obvious that if this bill did not pro vide for the case of owners of estates who did not wish to sell, they would enter into contracts with the sole view of enabling them to take advantage of the machinery of the court which it established. (Hear.) This matter bad been investiga'ed by a commission, with which his right hon. friend the Home Secretary was conneeteil, and there was a passage in the able report which his right hon. friend had drawn up which he would read to the house. The commissioners, in relation to the registration of titles and the transfer of land, drew a distinction between the facilities afforded for those purposes in Eceland and Ireland, their object being to ascertain, if possible, a method by which land might be transferred with as much ease as stock—a great problem to the solution of which his right hon. friend had directed his great talents ; and he (Mr. Whiteside) would only remark that if the object to which his right hon. friend had devoted his time and attention could be carried into effect, it would be the greatest and most beneficial change in the law of real property that had ever been effected. (Hear, hear.) He was not at present concerned with that exten-ive project of his right honourable friend, except only as it now ref read, referred to, Ireland, an d th e p as s age w hi c h h e wou ld desirous provision te s o sell, ll he mi g ht s t a t e , h a d l a id t h e f oun d at i on of that the bill which related t 3 owners not , but anxious to obtain adjudication upon their titles. (The right hon. gentleman here read a passage from the report, which state I that in Ireland the land valu e a m t d i a o tc n hh , ei the oe ry E ncumberedfregionor st e r ff a e t c i tiEn gs o ta f a et d eha e a e n d cg s ee , ei t rn h t, e th O fee r rp d nr n ei s a il h i: en e d e t s s e y ux s rc t ve e le m ly:n , at and afforded far great facilities fur that purpose than existed in England.) The state ments in that pas sage established co nc l us i ve l y to his mind that the opera tion of the registry of theclP ' survey,t he general Ordnance general valuation, and the Encumbered Estates Court en abled them safely to extend t h e principle he had laid ilown in the case of proprietors who did not wish to sell, but who were anxious to possess an indefeasible title to their land. The next proposition he had to submit re lated to the Court which was to be permanently eetale• fished for the purposes he bad named, and the first thing • bey had to consider et as its staff. It was prove ! before the committee that with the three comrnitsioners sitting together there WhR, in point of fact, two dais lost in the week, and that the labour would b 3 much better per formed by each individual sitting alone, and astir g o n so, and having sati,_ fi h e ie d etwhen hroeuspseonsbiybiltihtye. r l e ' t h u a r t ns be h m e g bad quoted that the number of petitions had so g reatl y diminished, it fol lowed that when they permanently esta blished !hi+ court they might safely make it consist of two judges, instead ef three. (Hear.) It was believed that two judges sAttng clone each day in the week would be amply sufficient, cud do, in fact, more than three judges had done under a less advantageous system. (Hear.) It was likewise proposed that there should be an appeal direct!y from each judge to a court of appeal in Ireland, consisting of the Lord Chancellor and the Lords Justices, one of the best courts of appeal that could be devised in that country. He had spoken of the Masters who, it was contemplated, should be the com missionersin the cou r t—M r . M as tl e y an d D r . Long ld,it would b e f or th e h ouse to cons id er w h a t was to b e done with th e thi r d comm i ss i oner o f th e Present court—that excellent public officer, Mr. liar- grieve. He was taken from this country to Ireland, and he was bound to say that, though he bad heard complaints of certain things in the Encumbered Estates Court, he never heard a single complaint of that gentleman. He had been a most impartial, punctual, and laborious judge; and if the Home Secretary carried out his great scheme for facilitating the transfer of land in this country there was scarcely a gentleman in the profession better fitted to be employed than Mr. Hargreave. In the meantime, till he received some office suited to his position, he would receive the full salary to which he was now en titled. (Hear, hear.) The office of master was created under a mistake. He doubted indeed the authority to create such an office. That office of 10001. a-year was bestowed upon a gentleman highly competent to dis charge its duties. But the office of Master of the Court of Chancery had been abolished, and here was a master created forthe Encumbered Estates Court when the office had been exploded in Chancery. The committee which sat upon the court admitted thatthis was an abuse. The principal of the court was thus enabled to shuffle the la bour and responsibility upon the master, and to leave him to do the duty which the principal ought to do him self. It was proposed by the bill to abolish this office, and the gentleman holding it was, by a clause in the bill, recommended tolthe liberal consideration of the Treasury. Whatever the Treasury might consider the present offi cers entitled to—such portion of them at least as were not required for the working of the new tribunal—he, at least, should not grudge them. He bad now to deal with the financial part of the plan. The Chancellor of the Ex chequer bad told them that they ought to economise in Ireland where they could. That was very good advice if it could be carried out. The house bad already paid for this court not less than 133,0001., to which he might add I the sum of 10,0001. voted for the erection of new buildings in which the court were to sit. Every estimate of the ex penses of this court had been on the increase. The court began with 4,0001., and the estimate gradually rose to 15.0001., finally stopping at 18,0001. He thought it quite right, however, that the estimate should be reduced this year by the sum of 2,0001. The proposition which he had to submit was one by which it was hoped the vote for the expenses of the court would disappear altogether from the estimates of that house, (Hear.) This pro posal was made by her Majesty's Government with satisfaction. In the first place, the circumstances of Ireland wore altered. Ireland was a great country, with resources now in a rapid course of development, and that a course of this nature should be permanently established at the expense of the House of Commons was a proposal that he had not the courage to make. It must be remembered that this was a court which would increase the value of the land on sale, which gave a per manent title, which increased the facilities of the trans fer of land, and which secured the purchaser in peace able possession. There could surely be no difficulty in raising, by simple means, a fund sufficient to recoup the consolidated fund for the expenses of such a court. (Hear.) The tales during the last three years were very great. In 1856 the purchasers of estates of the value of 5,0001. and under were 1,098 ; above 5,0001. and under 10,0001., 265; above 10,0001., 23. The gross total produce of sales in 1856 was 2,580,4071. In 1857 the number of purchasers under 5,0001. was 1,171 ; above 5,0001. and under 10,0001., 238 ; above 10,0001., 16. The total number of purchasers was 1,425, and the meant of sales 2,140,8101. Last year the purchasers of estatee of the value of 5,0001. and under were 1,402 ; above 5,0001. and under 10,0001., 182 ; above 10,000/ , 26. The number of purchasers alt Tether was 1,610, and the produce of sales was 2,185,2601. It was not be. lieved that the sales in the next few years would repre sent a less amount of purchase money, because there was now a rental of 200,0001. a-year for sale. The purchase money, however, produced by sales varied very much. A large estate belonging to the Thomond family was for sale ; among he purchasers were many farmers, who appeared in the Encumbered Estates Court, who were very noisy and angry when they were outbid, but who, notwithstanding their vexation, bought a great deal of land at 30 years' purchase. A small property for sale in Fermanagh county fetched 34yeare' purchase. It was not to be endured that the State should undertake the great task of simplifying titles at its own expense. (Hear.) The purchaser would have nothing to do with it. He would pay his money and take his deed, but when their money was lodged in the court he proposed :o deduct a very moderate poundage—viz., i per cent. on sums under 5,0001.; i per cent. on sums under 10,0001.; and 1 per cent, on sums above 10,0001. It was com puted that such a poundage would yield 18,0001. a-year. But that was not the only fund upon which he relied. Besides abo'et 1,500,0001. invested in securities, the ave rage cash balances in the Bank of Ireland were :—ln 1852, 807,0001.; 1853, 1,110,0001.; 1854, 1,146,0001; 1855, 1,052,0001.; 1856 (the court having begun to in vest more, and to leave less with the bank), 757,0001.; and 1857, 603,821/. The gains of the bank were esti mated at 40,0001. a-year ; he believed the court would easily make 7,0001. or 8,0001. a-year. If a gentle hint were given to the bank that unless a moderate per cent age were allowed on the deposits they would not have them, the directors, with the good sense which they possessed, would come to terms and gihe what was asked. The expenses would thus.be met he two ways—partly by a moderate deduction from the amount of purchase money, and partly by interest allowed for the use of the cash balances. The whole burden of the reconstructed court would be thrown on the consolidated fund, and the funds provided by the two modes he had mentioned would be paid into the consolidated fuud. He proposed that course in con , equence of the experience derived from the Suitors' Fee Fund. The Suitors' Fee Fund was formed by appropriating 200,000/. or 300,0001 belonging to suitors in the Court of Chancery who bad not claimed the money, and the interest was to be applied to cover the expenses of the court. But whenever a new place was made or an old servant superannuated, the cost was thrown upon the fund, with a proviso that, in the event of the Stotors' Fee Fund not producing a sufficient amount, it was to be paid out of the consoli idated fund, which never failed. (Hear, hear.) The consequence was that under the outward appearance of charges on the Suitors' Fee Fund the consolidated fund bad to bear upwards of 16,0001. a-year more than the former produced. It led to a complication of accounts, therefore his proposal was to pay everything out of and into the consolidated fund, and to keep an account of what was paid iu, that any balances over the expenses of the court might be known and made applicable to paying any new officer or to pensioning officers who had efficiently served in the court. He hoped to give to the proprietors of land iu Ireland another very great boon. The costs of the Encumbered Estates Court, particularly for surveys and maps, were enormous. An arrangement had already been made as to the maps, and he confidently believed an arrangement could be made whereby the ex penses of the court could be reduced . in other particulars 50 per cent. Therefore, while giving a Parliamentary title to the owner of an estate, they would reduce the a ex s p p e o n s s e e i sof h b le . The t e court com so mi a es io s n t e o r s m , a a a k t e h t e he yo b u u g rdn as hte, would light elevated to judges, and the court would be as respect. able and dignified as it was influential and important. Power would be given to each judge to appoint convey ancing counsel, with the assent of the Lord Chancellor ; but to secure the independence of the bar and the court he bad taken the liberty of providing that those counsel should not practise in the court. It was provided that a code of intelligible and distinct rules should be drawn up ofb o pt o he % judges, be r ,h t eLord Justices and th atifthey o f failed Appeal tod and oso the Lord byt be Ist Char cellor should prepare them. If the house approved the bill the court would be reconstructed, not exclu sively for the sale and transfer of land, but as a landed estates court, affecting and including the entire landed property of the country. The court itself would be self sustaining. It would no longer be a burden upon this country, and the burden would be lightly felt by the owners of estates, and not at all by the purchaser, who derived property f r om t he conveyance of the judge. Should he be so fortunate as to obtain leave to introduce this bill, the house would see that the working machinery was practicable, and that the court might be safely intrua'ed with the powers proposed, although such powers had never yet been conferred on any tribunal. They must, however, judge of the future by the past. It was a gratification to him to have received the support of his right hon. friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department and of her Majesty's Solicitor-General. Their desire was to apply similar principles to this country. (Cheers.) Meanwhile it was his confident hope and belief that in submitting this measure respectfully to the House of Commonsit was one calculated to promote the industry of the people of Ireland, and to pursue the course which they had so happily pursued, contradistinguisbed from the sil y and stupid agitation of past times, and which was likely to make of them a wise, a peaceful, and a wealthy nation. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving for leave to introduce the bill. Mr. J. D. FITZG'ERILD said it was somewhat against precedent for Government on a Tuesday evening, which was usually devoted to the motions of private members, to introduce a bill involving considerable mat ter for discussion. The right hon. gentleman had endea voured to give the credit of the Encumbered Estates Court to Lord St. Leonards, but he believed Lord St. Leopards had no claim whatever to the origination of that measure, and he certainly had cone to the carrying of it into law. It was introduced into that house by Sir John Reinilly, and it was mainly by his zeal that it was carried into law. (Hear.) He had rlways been a supporter of the system of the sale of encumbered estates, and had constantly advocated its enlargement, but the right hon. gentleman opposite, on the contrary, bad hitherto strenuously opposed that system. But it was never too late to be converted to the right opinion, and he was glad at last to find the right hon. gentleman alter his "lied. The right hon. gentleman bad fallen into error in confounding registration of assurances with registration of titles. There was a system of registration of assur ances in Ireland, but it was a very different thing from registration of titles. He entrely concurred in the principle of the measure as exp'ained by the right hon. gentleman, and should be happy to give him hi s gupport in paseing it into law, and in improving it if, wh en th e Bid was printed, it seemed likely to carry out that principle. Considering, however, the exte . nsive character of the measure and the late period at e bleb it was introduced, it was hardly likely that it could be passed into la w t hi s sess i on, an d poss ibly Parliament might be driven into a renewal of the Encumbered Estates Court as it stood. The right hon. gentleman tit ee trh a eea s a tms a ee convert edltteshuuerpep. to his opinion also on the financial part of i When awg, t Courtsien o rl.B, thesb6 b ut tet rigs,ieias hod pro posed foanr. h e gentlemanh a d t adopted ideaor t it. . He could not quite see the justice of the provision 77 whi ch h o l o c o h l. taxed alea r, the by Bank c.oinp e l i. n Ireland g i tto pay to interest r a e s n t eo o u n n amount the balances. Surely it would be fairer that the parties interested should be allowed t o i nvest their balances ar, they chose. It was s i ngular that while the jurisdiction of the Court was to be extended and new business given to it one of the commissioners, Mr. Hargreav e was to come to England on his f ull salary ; and if Mast er F lanagan were to be superseded after his longand valuable services to the court ' it ought certainly to be on exactly the same t erms. Sir E. PERRYthought that the right hon. gentleman THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY E VENING, MAY 5, 1858. had not quite done justice to the Attorney-General for Ireland in representing him as having always been op posed to the system of the sale of Encumbered Estates. (Hear.) When this hubjeot was before a Committee up stairs, both the right hon. gentlemen, he remembered, were strenuously in favour of the sale of encumbered estates, but they wished, like all the rest of the lawyers in Ireland, to transfer it to the Court of Chancery. He alone of all the lawyers on the committee expressed the opinions of the Irish laity, and advocated the continu ance of the present system. With regard to the principles enunciated by the right hon. and learned gentleman, they seemed to him to be sound, and he trusted they would be practicable. There were only two parts of the scheme at which he felt inclined to demur—the proposal to grant an indefeasible title to parties holding encum bered estates, but having no desire to sell them. Now the committee of which he was a member had heard witnesses of the highe'.4 ability who thought such an extension would ope n a wide door to fraud and he thought the owners of such property might justly be called upon to until they wanted to sell before they got the r title. Another feature of the plan was to enable the neve .iindges of this Court to appoint conveyancing cour.labl to discharge a portion of the duties which the Corermissioners of the Encumbered Estates Curt up to the, present time had performed so well. Now, the main 'value of the Encumbered Estates Court consisted in this —that the judges did their own work by themselves, that they referred nothing—(hear)—and if any inroad were made upon that system it would lead to all the dis advantages which distinguished our Court of Chancery. With these reservations he should cordially support the mea , ure. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Sergeant DEASY thought the measure was cal culated to effect a great improvement in the law of Ireland. Oa that aide of the house they would give the right hon. aid learned gentleman the most cordial co operation in improving the bill, without reference to his antecedent declarations on the sneject, and if it pa-sad into a law the right hon. gentleman would be entitled to the gra itude c f his country. (Hear.) He concurred, however, with his hon. and learned friend (Sir E. Perry) in expressing great doubt as to the principle of confer ring prospective Parliamentary titles, though this was a point of detail which he left for future consideration. (Rear.) With regard to Mr. Flanagan, that gentleman had given ep an appointment to take the •Ece of Secre tary, and at a Vine when the commissioners were much pressed by work he hall discharged the duties of Master without any increase of salary. Mr. Commissioner Har greave and Mr. Commissioner Longfield both bore testi mony to the admirable manner in which he had per formed functions which from their importance were essential to the success of the gireat experiment made in the esiallishment of the Court, and if it had not been for his assistance a great part of the work of the con3missioneis would have been left undone, or would have been done less efficiently. The right honessrable and learned gentleman had himself, hid( el , said that Mr. Flanagan must be regarded as a fourth Commissioner, a fourth judicial officer, and he (Mr. Sergeant Deasy) thought it was not quite fair, therefore, to draw such a distinction between Mr. Har greave and Mr. Flanagan. Both these gentlemen had alike relinqui,bed their professional engagements, and had laboured long and successfully for the success of the Court, and both, he thought, ought to be placed on the same footing. !Hear.) Mr. DOBBS suggested that the right hon. and learned gentleman should take this opportunity VI introduce a bill to improve the Registry Act, in order that it might be ancillary to the measure which he was now bringing forward. The Registry Act was of the greatest import ance in ascertaining the validity of titles, and without its aid be d , übted whether the commissioners could have satisfactorily wol ked the Encumbered Estates Court. Its deficiencies might now be supplied ; but meanwhile he should give the measure of the right hon. and learned gentleman his humble though cordial concurrence. Mr. 110R,SMAN, while expressing the great satisf so tion with which he had heard the statement of the right bon: and learned gentleman Renerally in introducing his bill, regretted to learn that the Court of Appeal in Ire land was not to be a final court of appeal. Mr. MALINS said there was one point in the pro , posed scheme which it was extremely desirable the house should weigh well before it gave to it its assent—be al luded to the extea,ion of the principle in operation in relation to eacurebered and unencumbered estates in Ireland. It might happen, for instance, that a person whose title had been declared good in accordance with the proposal of his right hon. and learned friend bad in reality no such title, and yet if the true owner came for ward to claim his eetate he could not proceed against the purchaser because be possessed a Parliamentary title. (Hear, hear.) He had called the attention of the house to that point that it might not be supposed he gave an unqualified approval co all the provisions of the proposed bit. Mr. WALPOLE, referring to certain observations of the right hon. and learned gentleman the member for Ennis (Mr. J. D. Fitzgerald) to the effect that the pro posal under the notice of the house had been brought forward on a day which ought to be appropriated to the motions of private members, said that his right hon. and learned friend (Mr. Whiteside) had not balloted for the day at all, but had, span the contrary, waited until the ballot was over, and had not set down his notice of mo tion until every hon. member had had an opportunity of placing his own upon the paper. He felt assured that the manner in which the proposal had been received upon all sides of the house must convince the right hon. and learned gentleman that the Government had been afforded every encouragement to induce them to proceed to carry it into execution. From his own experience as a member of the commission to which reference had been made, he felt satimfled that a Parliamentary title to land might be granted, and be could conceive no greaterboon to the landed interest than the granting of such a title would involve. (Hew.) Mr. WHITESIDE A in reply to the observations of the hon. and learned member for Cork (Sergeant Deaq) said he should be happy to consider the suggestion to deal with Mr. Flanaga❑ upon the same principle as the other commissioners, believing him to be a very able and competent man. The right hon. and learned gentleman opposite (Mr. Fitzgerald) seemed to think that the pro posal which he (Ar. Whiteside) had just submitted to the house was his thunder, but he might inform him that in 1852, when Mr. Rackburne was Lord Chancellor of Ireland, he had asked him to introduce a bill to ingraft the principle of granting Parliamentary titles to land in the Court of Chancery, concurrently with the Encum bered Eitates.t Court, inasmuch as it was thought that the later court would be choked up. (Hear.) Leave was then given to bring in the bi 1. - - THE DANUBEAN PRINCIPALITIES. Mr. GLADSTONE—Sir, I am not in the habit of troubling the house with motions on subjects of foreign policy, and if I have now deviated from the rule, I have done so under the double conviction that the question to which I call their attention is, in the first place, of an interest and importance, with which I trust those who hear me will be fully impressed, and on the other ham', that the time was urgent, and the danger arising from possible miscarriage great ; in short, that if the house do not give attention to the question in the season which is now in our possessioa, it may be that we shall have to rue our neglect and End ourselves hereafter involved in heavy responsibility. I trust it will not be said on this occasion as is often said with reference to questions of foreign policy, that the house had better not interfere. We somehow hear speeches made which treat the whole subject of our foreign relations as if they were something too sacred fur the touch of Parliament. There is a kind of general warning issued to the House of Commons, and we are led to suppose at one time that it is too soon for us to express our judgment, and at another time we are told that the matter is concluded, that it is too late to attain our object, and that the only remaining ques tion is to censure the ministry. Now I trust that on this occasion I am not obnoxious to this charge in in viting the house of Commons to take cognisance of the Danubian Principalities, because that which I am going to ask the house to do is not to dictate to the executive government in regard to a policy on which no authorita tive course has been marked out ; but it is, on the con trary, to beg them to recognise the communications which have been made to us in the most formal manner by the executive government, and to give their judgment upon the tenor and purport of those communications. (Hear.) It will be seen, I hope, as I proceed that lam able to make good this proposition, that it is a matter strictly wi hin the province and the proper jurisdiction of Parliament. I conscientiously feel, and am convinced that the house, if it gives its attention to the subject will also come to feel; that it is a matter which deeply touches the question of European policy—that it ie a question of public faith—and that it deals with questions nearly and vitally teembing the happiness of millions of our fellow creatures. (Hear.) The purport of the address which I propose to move perhaps requires a ver bal explanation. In the first of the two paragraphs of that address it is proposed that we should acquaint her Majesty of our acceptance and appr ,val of the policy in respect of the Danubian Principalities, which was an- I nounced by her Majesty's Government in 1856 ; and in the E€COll i cf these paragraphs, going one step further, to propo se to the house that we should express our wish in general terms that due weight and consideration may be given to the wishes which the people of the Princi palitiee have expressed through their representatives, and in pursuance t f the provisions of the treaty of Paris. Tne general effect of the address is this ; To express an opinion on the part o: the House of Commons—not an orieLalopinion, but an opinion seconding the judgment of the executive government, as announced two years ado, in fay, ur of what is called the union of the Danubian Princitel tie:. Arid now for the reasons why we should adopt a measure of this kind. The first reason which I gill submit to the house in support of the motion is that inaen is the wish of almost the entire population of the Pliec'palities. That is a fact deeply rioted in their history. It is a feet which has become more and more couspicuout as time has proceeded. The history of the Principalities is one that gives them every claim upon the attention cf Parliament. They are men attached to the religion which a e profess; they are men attached to the liberty which we cherish ; tbey are men who have suffered for a long course of years in consequence of the ambitious policy of aggrandising neighbours ; they are men whose interests at the treaty of Paris we have bound ourselvee to consider and to promote ; and they are per eons in. whose grateful attachment we ma hope to receive the reward of our labours. I need scarcely add that they inhabit a couetry with which our commercial relations, even under a bad system government, attained to great importance, and with which, under a better system of government, that impo:tance would most probably be very greatly increased. (Hear, hear.) Now let there be no question or dispute in the house as to the desire of the people of the Principalities that these two territories should be united. The Principalities, as the house well knows, are those territories upon the Danube termed Wallachia and Moldavia. They are the relics of a territory that was once considerably larger, in• habited by that Daciaa race which, in former times, was a terror to the Roman empire, and which afterwards, receiving a strung tinge of Roman colonisa tion, in no respect departed from its ancient military fame ; so that at the time when the flood of Turkish conquest came in, this people almost alone, by their own good swords and their own stout arms and hearts, were able to vindicate their own rights. In times of darkness, of oppression, of blood, of misery and of crime almost unequalled in the annals of mankind, the people of the Principalities vindicated their own freedom, and that freedom they continued to enjoy until a compara tively recent period, when they, their rights and inte rests, were bandied about between the contending claims and intrigues of Russia, and Austria, and Turkey on the one side and the other. What said Sir John M'Neill on the subject ! Writing in 1843, he says—" During the last 815 years the principalities have been occupied for more than 30 years by Muscovite marauders, and have been the battlefield of the Russian and the Turk in not less than twenty campaigns." And the very struggle that you made, and justly made, in the late war for the independence of Europe—what did it do for them ? Un fortunately, it increased the miseries of these people. (Hear.) The Emperor of Russia, playing his old game, but not playing it with his ancient skill, when he was, as we say, in a political sense, about to inflict an injury upon Turkey, inflicted it upon the Principalities.. No doubt, politically, that was an injury to Turkey. 2 But I apprehend that the injury to Turkey must not lead us to forget the deep suffering, the degradation, and the misery of that frightful military occupation, which did not fall upon Turkey, but on the unhappy people in those territories—those people who had fought and won freedom for themselves—who had held that freedom for a long series of centuries, and whose freedom has only been impaired and lost as to a great part of its effects, since the time when Russia began to extend her terri tories, and found it more to her interest to back the claims of Turkey over the Principalities, in order that, having asserted the right on the part of Turkey , she might ob• tain them from Turkey by insidious negotiation. (Hear.) The union of the Principalities is tne ardent desire of the people of these territories, and I am anxious to make good this proposition, because although it is not conclu sive upon the case—yet I speak in the British House of Commons, I speak in that assembly to whicb, I will not say to which alone, but to which almost alone, every lover of liberty in the world has now to look for the vindication of his rights—(cheers) —and I beseech the House of Commons to do full justice to the wishes and rights and interests of this people, if those interests are compatible with justice and the welfare of the world. (Cheers.) I will quote an authority upon the subject of the union of the Principalities which appears to me to be entirely beyond dispute. I refer to a document of the utmost importance, bee sties it carries with it not only the assent of the people and the authorities of the Principalities, but likewise the assent of the suzerains power, namely, the Sultan of Turkey. The date of that document is 1834. It has no relation whatever to the recent struggle in tke East. The case for the union has been infinitely strengthened since that period. But that instrument, which has the sanction cf a hatti scheriff of the Turkish empire, contains the following language re specting the union of the Principalities :—" The origin, the religion, the usages, and the conformity of habits among the inhabitants of the two Principalities, no less than their common wante are elements of au intimate union, which has been hampered and retarded by acci dental and secondary circumstances. The advantages and salutary consequences resulting from the union of these two Principalities cannot be brought into doubt." That is a public and authoritative document recognised as part of the public law of the Principalities, and hav ing the assent of the Sultan of Turkey. (Hear, hear.) Of course it was natural that repeated and aggravated suffering of the people of Moldavia and Wallachia since that time should have strengthened that sentiment. The Russian occupation was calculated to give it still further force, and when that Russian occupation ended I am sorry to say the public necessities of Europe obliged us to acquiesce in the substitution for it of what I believe is a still heavier infliction, namely, occupation by an Aus trian army. (Cheers.) There is something in the thing, and something in the manner ; and the Austrian armies have the unenviable reputation of placing in the most odious form and circurnetancee that which must always be afflicting tothe heart and spirit of a people that cherish and love their freedom. (Cheers.) It was natural that the people of the Principalities should raj , dce in the in terest shown in their condition by the powers of Europe both during the negotiations which preceded the war and during the negotiations that were afterwards insti stuted, and I believe I am correct in saying that when the plenipotentiaries assembled in 1855 there was sub mitted to the assembled body, through the medium of the French plenipotentiary, sufficient evidence as to the desire of the people fur the union of the Principali ties. But it is not to that meeting of pleriipot ntiaries that I refer as constituting the declaration of European policy to which I now ask the house to give its adhesion. These negotiations failed. They were resumed in the early part of 1857, and then it was that the questioe took a form which I thick ought to be decisive as to its ultimate issue. In the sixth protocol of the conferences of Paris, in 1856, the views of the diff,rent Powers are fully explained, and although I shall endeavour to avoid wearying the house with reference to documents, yet that on record relative to the proceedings in Paris in 1856, is se vital in its bearing upon the question, that I hope the house will allow me to put them in possession of what occurred. In the sixth protocol we are made ac quainted with the discussions which took place respect ing the union of the Principalities. There were ass•ein bled at the time the representatives of s x or seven powers who gave their seeeral judgments. Bet of those powers, although there were many whose judgment might be important with reference to the knowledoe which the parties possessed, yet they could carry but little weight in point of moral authority, because they hail cross inte rests of their own, which made them bad judges with respect to the Principalities. lam not about to hold that the views of Russia, on the question of their union, could be safely taken as a guide and authority, and still less could the Government of Russia be taken as an au thority. Both Austria and Russia are in the condition of holding and enjoying territory that was over part of the territory of Moldavia. They stand in a false position to wards the Principalities. Each of them may be well sus pected of a desire to extend their power in that direc tion. But Austria is in a position more false, if possible, than that of Russia, and for this reason : Russia, what ever else she may be, is an empire compacted, with an organisation of wonderful and extraordinary strength ; and I do not know that there is anything in her condi tion that need make her particularly afraid of seeing the Principalities free and flout ishing upon her borders. But Austria is in a different position, for she is ill compacted, and bangs as loosely together as Russia is firm, and the possession at this moment by Austria of her own do minions is not owing to her own power to bold them, but to the military aid she received from the Emperor of R uss ia. In that state, combining absolute government in a most rigid form with the extreme of internal weak ness, it is natural to admit that Austria should view with the utmost jealousy anything that tends to give freedom and strength to her neighbours on the Danube. (Hear.) It is impossible to blame her on that account. But it is possible, it is natural, it is reasonable and right, that we at least should beware of being drawn into her policy— (cheers) —and should view with suspicion and jealousy the policy which she may recommend in regard to what is good for the people of the Principalities. Well, then, but three powers assembled at Paris to whose judgment on this subject I can assign any weight. It is impossible to assign any g reat weight to th a t o f T ur k ey, because it is natural enough that selfish motives should in her case just as it would in our case, make her a bad judge in the matter. But France, England, and Sardinia —the latter of course of secondary consequence, though perhaps equally to be trusted as an impartial state —were capable of forming a judgment which would carry great weight with it throughout Europe. (Hear.) When the confer ere() proceeded to the development of the first po i n t relative to the Principalities Count Walewski said it was essential at the very outset to deliberate on a question of paramount importance, and that was whether Wallachia and Moldavia should henceforth be united in one single principality, and contain or possess a co-operative organi. ca ti on . The first plenipotentiary of France conceived that, as the union of the two provinces sati-fied the re quirements brought in, the congress should admit and proclaim it. The English plenipotentiary followed in the same line. Lord Clarendon, spanking for himself, speak ing for his Government, speaking fur his Parliament, and for England, said he shared in and accepted the proposition. Sardinia zupported the views of France and England.• Austria opposed them, and declared that she did not believe that the people of the Principalities did wish for the union. Turkey likewise declared tliat it was a mistake to suppose that the people of the Princi palities desired the udion. Tue Russian plenipotentiary, with great tact, reserved the;expression of his opinion until every one else had spoken, and it is impossible to com pliment tJo highly the sagacity with which be acted. It was dangerous for Russia to support the union if the union was going to be carried ; but if there was going to be a stout opposition to the union, then it was eminently advisable for Russia t> support it, because she would at once gain the credit with the people of the Principalities of being their friend, and of pursuing the policy which they had at heart, and she would, if the resistance cf others to the union proved effecaial, enjoy the advantage of seeing the Principalities disunited, in weakness and degradation, and the advantage of using them as the arena for her intrigues, and the advantage of knowing they would be incapable of forming arty safe barrier be tween her and Turkey. ([Tear.) Coining in at the end of the day, Russia supported the union of the Princi palities. I have shown what were the wishes cf the people. But the Powers a , seinbled at Paris were care ful to make adegeate provision on the embj ,ct. There was au article provid ng for the maintenance of the prie vileges of the Princiaalitiete There was another article providing for the revision of their laws, arid the appoint ment of a commission which should take undeS their consideration the mariner in which their laws should be revised. But there rasa third article—the most impor taut of the three ; it was framed so that the Sultan should convoke in the two provinces a divan composed in such a manner as to represent most clearly the inte rests of all classes. There was not only the pledge given by Count Walewski and Lord Garendon, but is was solemnly embodied in the treaty of Paris, and I now ask the House of Commons whether they will recognise and adopt it, or stand by in r beano and see the interests of the Principalities made the sport of sudden intrigue, and the faith of Europe, which is pledged to this article nullified and frustrated, - in consequence of the selfish designs of intereetee par ies. A reference to the people of the Principalities was made in due time. It was unfortunately delayed from a variety of causes Most unfoeunately the Austrian occupation was prolonged to a much later period than it ought to have been. But at length the time came, and the elec tions were held in the course of hist summer. The sen timents of the Wallachian representatives were almost en tirely favourable to the union. But the Moldavian repre sentatives were believed to be opposed to it, and a most painful controversy arose respecting the Moldavian elec tions. France cried aloud that they had been carried by the most shameless and wholesale exercise of intimida tion and force. Documents were quoted which Ido not hesitate to say disclosed a series of proceedings on the part of those who were in temporary exercise of authority in Moldavia, as shameful as any that are on record. Through the medium of those proceedings the Molda vians of all classes were intimidated from voting, -and mere handfuls of those entitled to vote gave their suf frages. The consequence was that a packed divan was ready to misstate and to deny the heart's desire of the people. But the people were not without champions, and the language of France on this subject produced such an effect as that after a conference at Osborne, it was de termined in this city that the Moldavian electors could not be supported, and must be quashed. lam sorry to ray that Austria and Turkey were engaged in upholding these elections, but still quashed they were, and the question was referred to the mass of those who were en titled to give their vote. That vote was given by the different orders of the people in very large numbers. The divan met in consequence of these two elections, and the divan so lawfully elected was, if possible, still more strongly in favour of the union than was the divan of Wallachia. Now this is a case of the most singular kind, because the elections in the Principalities are made in classes. There are, I think, four classes—a class of nobles, a class of clergy, a class of citizens, and a class of peasantry—and these classes have questions of the most difficult and painful nature between themselves. The peasantry of those countries suffer heavily under the present condition - of the law. They are, I believe, in a worse condition than the peasantry of France were in before the first revolution, and therefore there was every thing to make those different classes go to issue with one another ; but instead of that, one sentiment and one desire possessed the whole. They chose men with the same feeling with regard to this great and vital question. All felt that if they were to be happy, if they were to be free, if they were to have a chance of keeping tie soil of their country unpolluted by the heel of the :stranger, there must be a union of the Principali ties. These people were not trained as we are to repre sentative institutions. This people, whom we often hear denoueced for their profligacy ; this people, who of course reflect all the evil they have suffered for several generations ; this people, with one heart and one mind, elected by open and fair vote the popular assembly, which was to consider this question. The result was that in the divan of Wallachia there were but two votes given against the union, and that in the divan of Moldavia the vote for the union was unanimous : Now, observe the course of policy. This question is opened in the most solemn manner at a great European congress, the debt of Europe to this unfortunate population is acknowledged ; the policy of the three western powers, who alone were in a condition to give an impartial judg ment, is formally proclaimed. France leads the way, England and Sardinia fellow. Provision is made in the treaty to refer to the judgment of the people the ques. tion of their future organisation. The answer of the *vie is returned with an unanimity almost unexampled in history, That is the point to which we are now come. Well, sir, it may perhaps be said, that best tea the provision that the people of Moldavia and Wallachia should be consulted, it was also provided that a coin- mission should be appointed. Well, it was provided that a commission should be appointed, and that that com mission should collect information with regard to the state of the country, and should suggest the measures to be taken in respect of those future arrangements. But I, for one, respectfully demur to any such doctrine as that the gentlemen composing this commission had placed in their hands the virtual disposal of the vital in stitutions of the five millions of inhabitants of the Princi palities. There is, first cf all, the solemn declaration of France and England ; secondly, there is a reference under an article of the treaty of Paris to the judgment of the people, and there is, thirdly, the appointment of the commission. Why, to start the idea that these com missioners were to decide the question of the union is to convict it of its own absurdity. There was a saying of Mr. Charles Buller's with regard to the working of representative institutions in the colonies, which was PO true and eo pointedly applicable to the circumstances in which he addressed it, that it had a material influence on our colonial policy. He referred to the theory which prevailed some twenty or thirty years among us to this effect, that you might give your colonies representative institutions, but the question whether the wishes of the people, athered through their representatives, was to prevail or not must be decide.' in the recesses of your Colonial•office. That was the doctrine, and the saying of Mr. Boiler was, " Well, that is lighting the fire and stopping up the chimney." Sir, do not let us, on the question of the Principalities, light the fire and stop up the chimney—do not let us light the fire of the people's desires—do not let us give the sanc tion of a reference to them of a matter which so effec tually concerns them, and then by taking five or six commissioners and sticking them in the chimney, pre vent that fire from burning. (Hear.) I think I am justi fied in assuming !half it will not be disputed that the union of the Prig cipalities is desired by the people rf the Principalities. It would be easy to dwell at length upon the question, if it were necessary, but as I rest upon public evidence and documents of the most unim peachable kind, I shall assume that proposition to be proved, and proceed to consider the rest of the case. There is one objection, if this motion is opposed, which may be taken. It may he said, and truly, that the people of the Principalities have express d their desire for tee union, and something wore. It is perfectly true that tee divans have addressed themselves to all the points which appeared to them material for a thorough settlement of their political organisation. In the first place, they have asked for a formal recognition by the powers of Europe of what they call expressly their autonomy, that is, their entire independence in regard to internal legislation. That is admitted and recognised in the treaty of Paris when it is stated that they are to have an independent national administration. The second point to which they have addressed themselves, and of which they make prayer, is the neutrality of their territory. Well, Ido not know that the neutrality of their territory is expressly indicated in the treaty of Paris, but is has been proposed by high authority in this house. The Chancellor of the Exchequer about the close of the Russian war, explained his views upon that subject in considerable detail, and he appeared to me to show that the establishment by an European understanding of the neutrality of the Prin cipalities, would in all probability prove to he a wise and efficient measure for interposing between Russia and Turkey the resistance of two states. The third point was the union of the Principalities in favour of which the de claration of the western powers bad been made. Another of the five points was that the Principalities should be governed by representative institutions. Su far as these four points are concerned, I can hardly conceive from what quarter a doubt could arise as to the legitimacy and reasonableness of the wishes they expressed. The fifth point I grant is one of a more doubtful character. It is this--that the Principalities might, in order to avoid local jealousies, be united under a prince or chief taken not from one of the na ti ve f am ili es b ut f rom some f oreign family. I do not ask the house to give judgment on that subject. I see no danger in such an idea. England is under no pledge with regard to the question of a foreign prince, no policy has been declared favourable to such an arrangement, The great powers of Europe must re• serve in their own hands the ultimate decision after hearing the opinions of the people. Bet as regards the other four points, it appears to me that they have be haved with great moderation and great prudence. And do not let us be told that it would not be safe that the Principalities, when united, should be under a foreign prince —do not let us be told that on that account you are utterly to overlook the pledge you have given. with regard to other matters infinitely more important. Well, the union of the Principalities, which has been all but promised on the part of France and England, which is all but sanctioned by the most atuheritative declaration on the part of those countries, is now about to be de cided at Paris, but it may be said it is not enough to show that it has been promised, it is not enough to show that it is desired, unless you also show that it is a good and safe measure. Well, I own nay belief that it is a good and safe measure, and not only that, but that there is no other measure that is g o 1 and safe under the cite clunstances in which you stand. In the first place I think it is not denied that for the Principalities them selves union is the best measure possible. (Hear, hear.) Imagine the condition of the peopleof those two territo. ries. On one side, Turkey ;on another, Russia ; and on the third, Austria ; themselves isolated as a people, desirieg freedom, hitherto made the sport of foreign in trigue, constantly seeing themselves invaded by foreign armies, constantly oppressed ey one Government or other, who have their own purposes to serve. Can any thing be more natural than that they should desire . to have some security ? Does their desire need to be jus tified in this house I Are we not speaking in a Parlia ment which has found strength in this land by uniting with others? Weat was the old relation of Scodend and England ? Not very unlike the relations of these Principalities, not unlike their relations when the in trigues of foreign powers endeavoured to make Moldavia the means of thwarting the interests of Wallachia. It was se when England and Scotland were disunited. Scotland was the ally of France and the prevailing na tionai sentiment r f Scotland was much mote French than English. By uni7ire these two countries you did away with that dissension, and added hot Fty, power, and hap piness to the population of she Uni ed Kingdom. W e have acted on the same principle in our own time. What did we do with the two Caeadas ? We bid the two Catesclas seek ttrergeh in union, and they have found it. And unless lam much mistaken we have offered to Australia, tee, that if the provinces choose to form an union among themselves, in an Act of Parlia ment are to be found previsions by which that union may to effected. If it were liSely to be disputed that tete utile n of the two prinsipalities is the natural and ne cessary means of givirg d v.l ennent to their resources, of realising to them the aids c f national expenditure, of strsng , .henir g the crganisatioe of their Government, and diminishing its expenditure—by the attainment, in short, of every ina'erial obj ct that reasonable men could de sire, I would then open up a more detailed argument on the sutrjt.ct. But I assume fer the present that the union of the Principalities is micioubtehly to be de sired a 3 far as the welfare of the people of those pro vinces is concerned. If that be so, I beseech tee house to consider well before you determine that the vote of this country is to be governed hy considerations other than those of the _welfare of the people. (Hear.) It is a dangerous and a slippery course upon which you etub at k w l, en you take your stand in the laced four or five millions of men, and tea then that God Almighty hes sent them ittto the wend not to prosecute their own happiness and welfare by every lawful and reasonable moans that are in their power, not to be made victims in all that touches their public and private existence for the peTrpose of serving other views extraneous to their inte rest—views that an overpowering force is determinel to carry into effect. (IL'ar.) Well, I assume that the union of the Principalities is good far the Principalities themselves. Then for whom is it not good ! lam net prepared to say that it is good for Austria or Russia. I cannot undertake to say that it is convenient for Aus tria to have freedom in conjunction with prosperity close by her threshold. (Hear.) I believe that the Princi palities, if you do not unite them, will be a constant seurce of danger and uneasiness to Europe. If you do unite them, whether the example which they may set of good government, as I hope, will be convenient to the . states around them, it i s i mposs ibl e f or us to settle . Well, sir, with regard to Russia, ram not prepared to say that the union of the Principalities is for the inte rest of Russia considered as an aggressive and a con quering power. I trust that for the moment the self agerandising designs of Russia are in abeyance, because a chastisement has been inflicted with regard to mate rial resources which no doubt will act, for a time at least, upon the policy of Russia. But at some period or other the ambition of Russia may again require to be watched, and we must take cognisance of that policy on the part of Russia; and if you are to take cognisance of it, how are you to check and resist it ? It was a rare conjunction of circumstances not likely to recur, aided by uncommon rashness on the part of the Emperor of Russia, which made it possible to check Russia in the late war. Russia, if she is contemplating aggrandise ment, will watch the opportunity, and I thick will watch it better than she did in 1853. England may not always be in the humour to expend fifty or a hundred millions of money to keep Russia within bounds. I believe that the people of England may always be disposed to make great sacrifices for such an object, but the alliance of England with France is a resource not to be depended upon. Surely the best resistance you can offer to Russia is the resistance of a free country. You want to place between Russia and Turkey a living barrier. There is no barrier like the barrier offered by the breast of freemen. Don't keep these countries after the pledge you have given in this state of weakness and disunion. Do not withhold from them their desire, but give them that which will raise a barrier to Russia more formidable than any other. Let us consider what will be the effect of the union of the Principalities, with regard to the in terests of Turkey. And hers I do not enter into the ques tion, what is the internal state of the Turkish empire. I will not on this occasion go into the inquiry, whether the Mahommedan power in Europe can be sustained or not, I assume that it is a great object of European policy to prevent the extension of the Russian power in the direction of Constantinople, and that the power which now occupies Constantinople ie to be maintained as a barrier against Russian aegrandisetuent; rrecognise the obligation of the treaty of 1856 upon the powers of Europe to maintain the integrity of the Turkish empire against foreign aggression, and I therefore assume we are not to take measures insidiously destructive to the power of Turkey. But has the union of the Principalities the slightest tendency to inflict injury ueon Turkey! lassert that it has not. But that is a prop eition of great import aece, because there are certain views of governing men upon which you might come to an opposite conclusion. There are those who think teat the best mode of govern ing men is to govern them by force, that there is no such thing as reason in the masses of the people, and that the only effect of concession is to encourage the people to greater and more extravagant demands. To those who bold these opinions I have nothing to say, but in addres sing the House of Commons I presume I am addressing the professors of an opposite creed. The legislation of this country is founded happily upon the principle that i the best way to secure th e i ns tit u ti ons o f a country s both to conciliate the interests and to meet the moderate and reasonable wishes of its people. Let us apply that principle to the relations between Turkey and the Princi palities. I do not believe there is any portion of the terri tories in connection with the government of Constanti nople which have caused less of care and anxiety to the Ottoman Porte than the Principalities. I do not speak of their having been made the instruments and tools of fo reign governments; but ram speaking of the conduct and relations of the Government. In point of fact, the history of the relations between the Principalities and Turkey has been this, that it was a relation extremely liberal in its character. There was nothing stipulated on the part of the Principalities except the acknowledgment of a no minal supremacy, and the payment of a moderate tribute. I have seen with an astonishment that I cannot describe a statement that the Turkish Minister has described the Sultan as a Sovereign over the Principalities. I only re fer to it because it may have the effect of misleading. Ae I read in the French joureale, the word " suzerain,' which is entirely different from the word " sove reign" in its effect, is a word of very recent application to the Principalities, and in effect it was never found in connection with the Principalities before the treaty of Adrianople in 1829. But what I want to point out is this, that Turkey has found her safety and freedom, so far as the Principalities are concerned, not by measures in tended to oppress them, but, on .the contrary, by main taining an easy and liberal relation towards them. Turkey has a two-fold interest in the Principalities. The first is the very limited one that her tribute shall be paid, and the sec cod and more important one is that the Prin cipalities shall not become the property of other govern ments. It is not Turkey that can prevent the Brincipali ties being free. The union of the Principalities is not unfavourable to Turkey ; it is not unfavourable to the connexion with Turkey understood in the manner la which it is defined by European law, because beyond the payment of a small tribute, its relations with the Princi palities are only those of a nominal supremacy. That I be lieve to be the true state of this question as regards the different parties concerned. I believe it to be entirely un deniable, and not to be questioned, that the union will promote the interest of five millions of Moldavian. and Wallachians, and a, respects European policy with regard to Russia I cannot but conceive that common sense teaches us to endeavour to develope a sense of freedom and of con sciousness of poitical existence, to make them, if nothing more, efficient opponents of the aggrandisement of Rus sia. And as respects Turkey, we stand upon the .groand of policy as well as of law, in endeavouring to maintain the amicable character and the liberal relations between that power and the people of the Principalities. I invite Parliament to interpose to affirm that which has been declared and that which has been announced. Now I say we must not trifle with this question. For my own part, I will never be a party to trifling with the reason able expectations of five millions of men ; neither do I think that Parliament ought to be trifled with, in such a way as would be the case if in the year 1856 the minis try, after thoroughly considering the case, are to make - known to the house a certain definite course upon a vital question of policy connected with the great warlike struggle in which we have engaged, and then, without any explanation or reason, they are to abandon their own formal and publicly announced conclusions, and march in exactly the opposite direction. Having had a suspicion that something of the kind might be intended, [ inquired the other evening of her Majesty's Govern• nient whether they were about to present to us any further papers on the subject ; and I was answered that they were not. That being the case, and not being able to obtain any satisfaction or any assurance that they would persevere in a policy such as had been announced to Parliament, I had no alternative but to give notice of a motion in the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) The question is now or never. Next week the conferences will meet at Paris, and we shall have no cognisance of what takes place at those conferences until after the lapse of a few days, when we shall be told tbat all is over, that the Principalities are not to be united, and that the sim ple word "not" is to be inserted in the declarations of Count Walevi ski and Lord Clarendon. (Cheers.) It le by the united judgment of England and France alone that this question must be settled. If England shall un fortunately be opposed to the union of the Princi palities, France will be obliged to give way, however much it may be against her will. The union of these Principalities would thus be frustrated, in spite of the most solemn promises, and Russia, now friendly to it, would hereaf er avail herself of it, and by chiming in with the bee of the people, lay a fora cation for her power on the banks of the Danube, ar d the name of Turkey would become odious. I car not conceive any measure more conducive to create the ye .3 , ied, e hi e e ap prehended, or more suicidal in its nature, than the course now proposed. If it were their d, sire again to embroil the East—if they wished to pave the way for Rersaia and augment her influence, they could not do it better than - by abandoning their pledges and policy and joining in with Austria. It is for that reason I entreat the house to hold to its former policy, to make the Government adhere to it, and rigidly exact from them the reason why they were to abandon it. It might be a small question with them. It was eclipsed by the ggantio subject of the Indian government, and would have little effect on their families or household at tome, or in their public arrangements, no matter what was done. But the day of reckoning was to come. France wag ready to do her best. She was now what she was in 1856. (Cheers) I see an hon. baronet (Sir E. B. Lytton) shake his bead. (A laugh.) I know not if that hon. baronet expressed the mind or spirit of France, and ear- ta,inly I am not prepared to say that that shake was et,* d in importance to that of Lord Burleigh. (A laugh ) I have no hesitation in saying that France could not carry the union of these Principalities in the face of Austria and Turkey, if England deserted her. That wee the question to be decided now, and they could only do it by a perseverance in their policy and a redemp iin of their pledges. That is the question which I now earnestly submit to the House of Commons in the words of my motion. (Cheers.) The motion being put by the SPEAKER, Mr. S. FITZGERALD felt he had an arduous task to perform in answering the speech of the right hon. gentle tleinan who had just sat down. He had not only to contend with one of the most eloquent speakers that ever addressed the home, to answer a speech of more than an hour's dura tion, hat one whose position and authority on all subjects, foreign and tionietio, must always be respected. H e had to contend, not only a g a i n st th es e things, but to address himself to a subject in reference to which hon. members were not perfectly acquainted, or had not given it that at tention which its importance demanded. The speech of the right hon. gentleman, he aimitted, manifested, from be 'nlll.6ll7' to end, the most careful and attentive resesrA, and he thus addressed the house from a great 'vantage ground, calling on them to egree to his resolution oa the ground of popular sympathy, and as supporting the ex pressed wish of an entire ld,)nlyhpoeeoei:let,heerleiefiotreed, forin tthheeiirr sympa thy p u bli ss ae' a n n b a l l y a . tt H en e tion in answering the right hon. gentleman, and he could assure them that whatever opinions he ex pressed were those of sincere conviction. The right hon gentleman expressed a hope that be would not be met with the trite answer that he was inter'', ring with matters re specting their foreign policy, which ought to be left to the exe cutive Government. H e wou ld not f i nd fault with hint on that account, but he could not sufficiently express his astonishment that one who had been so long engaged tie e unittiet of public affairs, who had filled high office, and, as such, hail often given his consent to negotiatiowe should now call on the House of Commons to pass a resc lotion not only unprecedented, but calculated to bring that house and the country into a serious difficulty. What was their position ? The right hon. gentlemen