The Sun. — London, England, 1858-06-30 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT HOUSE OF LORDS.—(ThsTBRDAY.) The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clock. Lard SOMERS took the oaths and his seat. CHURCH RATES. The Bishop of LONDON presented a petition against the total abolition of church rates. Lord CAMPBELL presented a number of petitions in favour of the abolition of church rates. He wag in favour of the abolition of church rates without any sub stitute. _ _ _ A number of petitions both for and against church rates were presented by other noble lords and right rev prelates MIDDLE CLASS EDUCATION. Lord EBURY presented petitions from Kensington and other places, praying for improvement in middle class education, and also against church rates. THE DIVORCE LAW, _ The Bishop of OXFORD presented petitions praying fnr a revision of the divorce law. VICTORIA STATION AND PIMLICO RAILWAY BILL. The Earl of DONOUG H MORE moved that the First Commissioner of Public Works should have liberty to • appear . by counsel before the select committee on the said bill. It was necessary the First Commissioner should be heard, because if the railway was carried across the river near Chelsea-bridge it would interfere with public property that ought to be protected. Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY said the Chief Commiiisioner stood in the same position as a private individual in this matter. When the bill was intro duced in the other house, the Chief Commissioner ex pressed his concurrence in the scheme, and it was not until he was precluded by the forms of the other house from interfering that he bad !petitioned this house.} He hoped their herdships would not assent to the motion. If the bill wets thrown over the session they might not be able again to obtain the assent of the interested parties on such favourable terms. The course now proposed was a most unusual one. The Chief Com missioner would have an opportunity of showing on the third reading of the bill that the place where it was pro posed to carry- the railway across the Thames would materially injure public property. The Earl of HARDWICKE considered her; Ma jesty's Goverument were justified in making the motion before the house. Their only desire was to protect the interests of the public. It was a matter of great public interest, and he hoped their lord• ships would agree to it. By adopting the - motion they would not be establishing a bad precedent for future legislation under similar circumstancee. • Lord REDESDALE considered it desirable the Chief Commissioner should be heard before the committee and the points at issue, relative to the mode of carrying the railway across the Thames, and its interfer ence with th e Crown lands, fullydiecuesed and considered. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE opposed the mo tion. The opposition to the scheme originated from a change of Ministry, and a desire on the part of the pre sent Chief Commissioner to review the decision of the previous Chief Commissioner on this subject. It was an unusual proceeding, and one that ought not to have emanated from the Government. The. Earl of MALMESBURY said that if the First Commissioner was refused a bearing on the bill, the Government would be disposed to recommend that the royal assent should be withheld. The word " veto" was not the proper term to apply to the case. The late First Commissioner had not seen the plans, the present Commissioner had,rand he was of opinion that the ex penditure on Chelsea-bridge would be thrown away if that plan wag not modified. The - Earl of WICKLOW said that no sufficient rea sons bad been rbown to induce their lordships to depart from their usual rule. All the circumstances were known to Sir B. Hall, tiian whom no man in the office of First Commissioner had conferred greater benefit on the public. (Hear,) The companies promoting this bill had incurred enormous expense ; and if the bill were now defeated, it was probable the public would be per manently deprived ofthe advantage which it would afford. Earl GRANVILLIT said, if the, Government was determined to rsf.iee tba consent of the Crown, which must be given to the bill at some stage, there was an end of the question. Lord REDESDALE said he was only anxious to ascertain what was the relsation of the Crown to the property in question. Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY said that the late Chief Commissioner hal been informed that he might petition, if he thought proper; taut be had not thought it necessary to do so. The case slow made against the bill was the most frivolous that cesaild be imagined. Lord REDESDALE said that file land of Battersea park bad been bought by a grant of public money, and was vested in some form or other in file Board of Works. Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY was understood to deny this, and to say that the assort of the Crone was not necessary to the progress of the bill. After a conversation, The LORD CHANCELLOR said it was necessary that a legal opinion should be obtained as to the rights of the .Crown: He had bad no previous notice that the question maul I he raised, or he sbotild have been pre pared to advise the house. lie would therefore suggest an adjournment of the discussion. After a few words !rani Lord CRANWORTH, The Earl of DONOUGUMORE consented to an ad journment until Thursday. LEASES AND SALES OF. SETTLED ESTATES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Lord CRAN WORTH moved the second reading of this bill. His of jest was to remedy a defect in the act passed two years ago 'with reference to married women residing abroad, and as to other matters of detail. After a f w words from Lord ST. LEW/ARDS the bill was read a second time. COUNTY MANAGEMENT DILL. Earl STRADBP.OKE moved the second reading' of this bill, and gave some explanation of its provisions. The bill was read a second time. ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION. This bill was passed through committee proforma. INDEPENDENCE OF PARLIAMENT BI LL. Loid BROUGHAM, at the request of the Earl of Malmeebery, postponed the second reading of this bi:l till Monday next. UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGE ESTATES BILL. This bill passed through committee proforma. CHURCH DISCIPLINE AND THE LAW OF SEQUESTRATIONS. Lord ST. LEONA RDS asked the Archbishop of Can terbury _Whether he intended to introduce a bill for im proving church discipline and the law of sequestration 4, with a view to deter incumbents from getting into-debt, and neroonn from advancing money to them on loan on, the L i ‘d 'sr thc.rn unreasonable credit, and to compel aa —tl.uwati;l it r• form their duties although their livings are under se questration I The Archbishop of CANTERBURY felt greatly obliged to the noble and learned lord for bringing f , )rward this subject, because it gave him an opportunity of making a statement which he had for some time been anxious to make. The bench of bishops bad long been aware of the evils to which the noble and learned lord bad re- 'erred, and they had taken great pains to devise means for amending the law. They had hoped to be able to lay a measure on the table of their lordships' house, but they had been informed that under the present circumstances of the session there would be very little chance of pass ing such a bill. They had, therefore, contented thein• selves with laying the measure before her Majesty's Go vernment, in the hope that early next session it would be submitted to Parliament, and would receive the sanction of their lordships and of the other house. The right rev. prelates proposed that when a livir was sequestrated, and the clergyman had absented himself, a more adequate stipetad should be allowed the curate, and that he sheuld also sicquire a r i g ht t o t h e parsonac, , o house. (afar.) N ex t session he should fe el greatly obli g ed t o t h e reads and learned lord if h e would afford his valuable aid with a view to improve the measure ty; much as possible. The Bishop of LINCOLN defended the right rev. bench from any blame in reference to the cause of se questration. If a eleig,yinan would but reside in his parish, his living might be sequestrated, but in the case cuopheed. the-living was already under sequestration. Lord ST. LEONAUDS said 'his object vas to compel residence by monition or by some other means. The Bishop of LlNCOLN—Suppose he will not anmer to the monition ? 10dtiT.:1,142.-ON.Aftitheil power shon!d be given to take tie living away from him. „ . Lord REDESDA LE said, when this qussti3n wag mocged before, Liu toads a suagestion which he woul•t novi'repca', namely, that if a clergyman had Bo mih coudiicteil himself that be inuld no longer live in his pariah with advan',.4gs to his parishionere, his living should be taken away from him a ltogether, Bishop of °Luca ESL'ER. observed that be hai on two occasions proAecnted clergymen and obtained convictions, but he had not been able to procure a severer sentence then suspension for two years in one instance and three years in the other, though in the one case the clergy• man was convicted of habitual intemperance and immo rality, and in the other of repeated acts of adultery. Such cases were happily very rare, but when they did occur the bishop should have the power, which he bad not now, of deprivation. Their lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS -YESTERDAY. The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o'clock. The Loriis' amendment to the following bills were considered and agreed to :--Andover Canal Railway, Dean Fore3t Turnpike Trust, Oude Railway. The following bills were considered and ordered for third reading :—Great South ern o f I n di a R a il way C OM- Pa9Y, Tetla Conservancy, Warrington and Stockport Radway (Capital). PETITIONS. BIG presented petitio n s f rom L e i ces t ers hi re in favou r et the legalisation of marriages with a deceased wife's sister. Many other petitions to the same esented . effect from other parts of the country w ere pr Alderman COPELAND presented petitions from Staffordshire against certain clauses in the Local Go vernment Act ppiposed by Mr. NUMahon. GALWA Y FREEMEN DItiFRANCIIISEMENT BILL. The house went into committee on this bil l. On clause 1, Mr. BUTT moved that the chairman do leave the chair, believing that if they proceeded any further with the bill they would be committing a manifest in justice and plunge themselves in hopeless eonfneion. The system of th e f ranc hi se o f fretscuP as it exist e d i n Galway was more popular than that which prevailed in any part of the country, for all artizana, artificers, and ISAMU residing there were adwittecl freemen, ivith- . out any exclusion on the score of religion, of in any other way. The bill proposed to disfrauchi se .the poor freemen, while they . eft the noble lord. se 'ho ob tained his seat in that house by their- votes in quiet possession of it. Another member of that house had openly declared that be had taken prirt in those acts of bribery, and yet no notice of that deeraraticia was taken, while the whole weight of Parl lament was brought down upon those poor freement who probably in consequence of want had been bola cod to accept a bribe. (Hear, hear.) He considered, that no amendments that could be introduced into the bill wc , uld make its provisions consonant with justice. Mr. CLIVE, who has charge of the bill, real the he n and learned gentleman (Mr. Butt) bad stated that .if they proceeded with the bill they would be i nvolved in manifest injustice and hopeless corruption— He (Mr. Clive) considered that if they did not proceed they would encourage manifest bribery and corrup tion. With regard to the evidence taken before the committee in reference to the bribery of these men, he considered that it was the duty of the house to take some notice of the report of the committee. Mr. WALPOLE thought it was unjust to proceed against some, while others were left untouched. The Attorney-General for Ireland had given notice of an anseadment, dealing with the bribers as well as the bribed. That proposition in itself would lead to very long and very serious discussion, which he thought they would not get through to-day. Another discus sion must be taken on the third reading, and he doubted whether they would be able to get the bill in proper shape into the House of Lords this session. Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD said that, as systematic ' corruption and bribery on the part of the freemen of Galway had been proved, the house ought to deal with the question, notwithstanding the advanced period of the session. He did not care which course was adopted, either disfranchising the whole of the freemen, or only , disfranchising these who had been proved to have given or received bribes, which was the ammendment of the Attorney-General for Ireland. Corruption , reigned in the whole body of freemen, and Parliament would be trifling with the subject if it shirked the bill now before the house. If this bill were dropped the people would come to the conclusion that election com mittees wera all humbug. (Hear, bear.) Mr. BERESFORD HOPE was quite prepared to admit that freemen in various parts of the country had been subject to the gentle violence of the purse, but thought that it was unfair to disfranchise a large body of men in consequence of the malpractices of a few. Tar. AYRTON had no hesitation in saying that this bill proposed the most unhappy plan he , had ever witnessed for carrying out a measure of justice. He did not think that, with the prospect of a measure of Parlia mentary Reform for next session, they should waste public time now in a piece of exceptional legislation. Mr. BENTINCK thought they could not proceed with the bill without ieflicting a great and glaring in justice. The zeal with which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Clive) pressed on the bill would lead to the supposition that he and his political friends 'had some ulterior object beyond the punishment of these poor freemen. Mr. KER SEYME ft thought that bills founded upon repute of committees should be taken up by the Govern ment, inasmuch as it was almost impossible for a private member to eaf.ry through such a bill successfully. As far as he was c on cerned, he should support the bill in its integrity. Mr. CONINGHAII oonsidered that as the freemen of Galway had •proved theCtelv" so corrupt, they ought to be diefranchised in a body. Mr. WHITESIDE thought tle.''t it proceedings were taken the bribers as well as the • bribed should be punished. The bribers corrupt e d th e virtue of these poor freemen for their political ends, and we:" a" will ing to destroy them. (Hear, hear.) Mr. COLLINS urged that if the freemen of Ga l . 75 Y were not to be punished, St. Albans had been improper:: punished. Mr. WARREN said that certain of the witnesses in this commission bad come forward and made a clean breast upon the promise that they should not be visited with any pains or penalties, arid now it was proposed to visit them with the very highest Parlia mentary penalties. After some further discussion the committee divided -1 For Mr. Butt's motion 9O Against it lO7 Majority —l7 The motion was consequently lost. On clause 1 being proceeded with, Mr. WHITESIDE moved as an amendment to intro duce the words "the voters who have been proved be fore the said commissioners to have given or taken bribes in the last or previous election." The of of the amendment was to confine the disfranchisement 1 to those who had been proved to have given or taken 1 bribes. Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD opposed the amendmen`. The bill did not propose to disfranchise individuals, but the class among ,vli fin corruption had always pre vailed, and who had from time immemorial corrupted the electors of the borough of Galway. In any measure of this kind the innocent would of course somotitnes suffer with the guilty, but that would not be the cacti to any great extent in this instance, as the respectable freemen would go upon the Parliamentary roll as house holders and leaseholders. (Hear, hear.) Mr. WALPOLE said that if the committee rejected the amendment, they would be hitting, riot those who were corrupting the ethers, but striking at the poor men who were unable to defend themselves. There were no grounds in moral ? , policy; or legislation to justify such a course. Mr. W. WILLIAMS considered it most unjust that the innocent should sutler. No doubt these freanien who were innocent were tempted, and having resisted, they were punished. He could not gam such a prin ciple. Mr. STEUART thought that the bill should not he viewed as an attack on private rights, but one having reference to the public good. He, therefore, could not accede to the proposition which had been made by the Government. Mr. MAGUIRE complained that the chief instru ments in the corruption and debauchment of the poor freemen of Galway were left unpunished by this bill. The corrupt class were not the poor freemen whom it was now proposed try disfranchise, but the gently of the town of Galway, many of whom were miserable place hunters. and servile wretched partisans. (Elear, hear, and laughter.) If this bill passed, a large number of men' who had resisted corruption and remained pure would be punished by disfranchisement, while the great culprits would go free. He asked the committee not to do anything that day which would give Ireland a new grief, or which would convince them that there was one law for the poor. Mr. COLLINS recommended that the freemen of Galway should be disfranchised, and that a resolution should then be passed, affirming that as the seat held in the house for that borough was obtained by corrupt means, it should be declarod vacent. Mr. WHITESIDE said the very object of the bill was, tr{tifln to put the two seats for Gal way into the bands of the men v.ho had been guilty of corrupting the electors. Lord DUNSELLIN defended the blarqui4 of Clan • ricarde (his father), against certain attacks which had been made against him, in connection with the late election, when the noble lord (Duukellin) was returned for that borough. He denied that the effect of the bill would be to make Galway a pocket borough. Mr. MELLOR considered that according to Perlia mentary precedent they ought to proceed with this bill, disfranchising a class that bad been proved essentially corrupt. Mr. AYRTON thought the bill in its whole concep tion was wrong, and that the penalties ought to be di rected against those who had set the corruption in mo tion. Ile then entered at some length upon the course which had been adopted by Lord Clanricarde in influencing the elections for the borough of Galway, and contended that Parliament ought not to punish those who had been corrupted, while those who had been guilty of the de:neralisatiou, the cause of all the crime and wrong, were ',wised over without notice. lie objected to the ineasiir e altogether, aad though he opposed the bill as a whole, he was, under the circnm- atantea, contented to accept the small modicum of justice which the Attorney-General for Ireland proposed. Mr. IL BERKELEY took a sirr►ilar view of the case and intimated his intention of supporting the amend ment of the Attorney-General for Ireland. Mr. Burr supported the amendment on the general principle that the innocent shou!d not be punished for the guilty. Air. Sergeant DEASY would not object to the amend menv.ef-the .Aiturney-tleneral if ho would allow the amendment, of which tie had given notice, to be envafted on it, nainely,-" Provided always that this Act shall not apply to any freeman who has obtained a certificate from the Commissioners appointed tinder the said recited Act of the lt3th year of the reign of her Majesty." Mr. CLIVE characterised the opposition which had peen offered to hie bill as a gigantic sham. Mr. MAGUIRE, on the other baud, charged those who supported the bill with lending their sanction to a party scheme. He advised postponement till next session. The committee divided, when the numbna were— For the amendment Against it Majority .... ' ..... — —57 The amendment was therefore carried. LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL. Mr. WALPOLE said he could not go oLi with this bill to-day if it was opposed. _ Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he should oppose every line cf it. (Laughter.) At ten minutes belore 4 o'clock the sitting wa Sus pended. At six o'c'ook the helve resumed. PUBLIC BUSINESS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved "that upon Tuesday next, and upon every succeeding Tuesday during the present ses!on, Government orders of the day shall have precedence of notices of motions." The right hon. gentleman szid he would not have made this motion unlets he had felt that it was the general wish cf the house that the busineui should be expedited. and be hardly knew any means by which the efforts cf the Government to focilttwe the progress of public busi ness could be more effectually aided. Having examined the notices of motions remaining on the book, it ap peared to him that there was no queStion which was likely to be prejudiced by the adoption of his motion. Mr. W. PATTEN wished to know whether the right hon. gentleman proposed to continue the morningaittings? Mr. Sergeant DEASY would like to hear what mea• sures the Government intended to proceed with, and what ine.sureu they intended to abandon. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the Government certanly meant to have recourse to morn .... ing sittings as muchas p9psible. The T rans f er o f L an d (Ireland) Bill, the India Bill, and the Scotch "Universi ties Bill' were measures with which-the Government in-. , tended to proceed, and he was not aware of any Govern ment bill which was to be given up. It must be agrt, Purse, ance to the lb. the hon. gentleman had Turkey. .7ud, as he thought, a very Mr. S. FITZGERA... T .' D said put a very comprehensive, unprecedented question to him, .. e nd he hoped he might, without giving offence, express a e!qubt whether any advantage could be derived, either by ;that house or the country, from putting questions of sucL it vague and roving character. He could only say, in that no communication of the character described had been re ceived by Government, and the hon. gentleman would pardon him if, in the absence of any facts, he refrained from expressing any belief on the subject. Alderman CUBITT hoped the Secretary of State for the Home Department would go on with the London Corporation Bill. (Order.) THE MANAGEMENT OF THE CROWN LANDS. Mr. CAIRD rose to call the attention of the house to the expenditure incurred by the Department of Woods and Forests on the Crown allotment of Ilainault, and to move that it is the opinion of this house that the costs cf management on the Crown allotment of Hainault, since the date of the act under which it was disafforested, have been excessive, and that the management generally past not been satisfactory. The hon. gentleman stated that last year the Bross income from the Crewe lands was about 445,0001., and the surplus paid over to the Exche quer, after paving expenses, was 284,0001. The late Sec , retary to the Treasury, in consequence of some observa tions made last year, submitted to the house a return of the entire expenditure on the late forests of Hainaut t and entire incomefrom timber, and that return appeared to him to form in a small compass a satisfactory exposition of the principles Adopted in themaratgereent ef the Crown estates.. Hainault forest contained about 3,000 acres; it was about 10 miles from London, and it was former:y much resorted to by the inhabitants of Landon for re creation. It might be questioned whether any pecuniary advantages of moderate character could compensate for the loss of such a means of recreation, and of euch an open space of forest scenery. Previous to enclasure the income from the forest was 5001. The matter was taken in hand by the Woods and Forests, and they had cleared away the timber, dug up the laud, and let • it for farms, and the gross revenue for 31 years on lease would be 4,240/. per annum. To obtain this, however, 57,0001. had been expended ; and if that stem had been invested at 5 per cent., and the 5001. previously derived horn the forest added to it, it would be found that in a pecuniary point of view no advantage whatever had been derived from the change. He thought a wiser selection of land might have been made, for there were other tracts of land, on which an expenditure, wisely laid oat, would have proved advantageous. The act to disafforest Hainault passed in' 1851, and in 1852, of the 3,000 acres, 1873 were allotted in property to the Crown. In addition to this the Crown got the timber on the remain ing 1,100 acres, which was worth 21,272/. Some years ago three gentlemen were appointed to inquire into the management of the royal forests, and they reported that tbey entirely approved of the maueeement, and they de precated the anxiety of the public for an immediate re turn, on the ground that the growing timber was caning to maturity, and would waen it reached that point give a treed return. They estimated its value at 6001. an acre. Teeee terees,L4,l grow'rq- to maturity for the last 800 years, and yet they were told ey Lee geetl.neen s - t down that if they waited 60 or 80 years longer they would be found in full maturity. The carne thing was said to Nelson when he complained of the short supply of ship timber. They had now cut down one of these ancient forests, and they had netted by the timber 261. 13s. par acre. Of the expenditure of 67,0001., 4,6741. had been paid for the expenses of the commission, set tling compensation, police and law, and the hewing of timber ; so that deducting this, the net expenditure on the 1,900 acres allotted to the Crown was 62,9311., or 33/.25.6d.an acre. There was laid out on drainage 18,0001. odd, cr 101. an acre, which was an expenditure quite inade quate. It was said that they xereelimited to do the work on short time, and that the roots of the trews in the 'round aiYorded obstruction ; but there works cou'd only be dotes cheaper when done on a large seals, and there had been previously expended 15,0001. in grubbing up the roote. Ile had no hesitation in saying that of the 101. an acre expended for drainage, an outlay of 61. 10 . an acre would have been sufficient, and therefore on this item there had been a loss of 6,4001. The farm buildings cost 14.0901., but the buildings were ill finished, and ((vial aeconetnodation might have been procured for half the money. On public roads there had been expended 5,200/. for miles, and that was a good road, but there were 11 miles of ferns road through the fields which had been constructed at an expense of upwards of 1,0001. This road was not mere than 10 feet wide, and there was no cutting more than 3 feet deep, and the gravel was ob tained from au adjoining hill. Yet this road, which cast one-fifth of a modern rail eta y, was so bad that the tenant was obliged to pat rocks of trees on it to prevent the carts sticking in the mad. For 4001., instead of 1,0001., an infinitely superior road could have been constructed. There was then 8 4001. for repairs of roads and fences, 8001. of which ought to have been included in the first contract. The most startling charge of all was for sur veyor's coraraissio i p and the superintending of the estate. The estate was 1,900 acres, and the charge was 7,990', for 3i years, or 1/. 61. per acre per annum. Nor was this all, for the surveyor was also receiver on the estate, Sir J. SHELLEY said that in quoting the tenant's testimony the Uteder-Secretary should recollect that he had been only two years in the farm, and had lately ;me to the country. His experience, therefore, di not go fur -much. He also found Fault with the old-fashioned method of draining with woolen pipes. Mr. HAMILTON —What he had said was that they bad to drain through a wool, not with wooden pipes. (A laugh.) Sir J. SHELLEY thought that the most convenient plan would be to sell these small properties. (Rear.) Sir J. TROLLOPE also thought that the better way would have beau to sell the and in small allotmente. He also was of opinion that :ha rate of drainage was heavy, as in general Si. was the maximum rate, to which li. might be added fur clearing away the timber. Mr. J. WILSON said thattie land could not be sold, because there was an act of Pa-liament to the contrary. He contended that the money hid out on Hainault Fo reet had been a most profitable transaction, as for the outlay they had obtained an increased rental of 3,700/. a year, which was as near as possible 9 per cent., on a lease for 31 years. Great good was done by bringing these questions before the hones, bat he trusted the hon.'tnernblor would not press his motion to a diviiion. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY disputed the calculation of profit, as 5 per coat, must be allowed for interest on ca pital. The report of the commissioners appointed by Par humen t sho , eed that every possible abuse was committed in the management of the Crown lands, and therefore it was for the public advantage that questons like the pre sent should be brought before the house. He hoped. Ico xever, after the discussion that had token place, the hon. member would not think it necessary to insist on a division. Mr. CAIRD, in reply, reasserted that the whole ex pense he had mentioned applied to the 3;000 acres, but whether 67,0001. or 42,000/. the house meet agree that it was a wasteful expenditure. That the drainage was inure difficult than usual was contradicted by the fact that it had all been done by the steam plough, and the same charge was made to Government foe ordinary ag • ricultural laud in Sussex. However, he was satisfied with the discussion he had obtained, aid would not press his motion to a division. ENDOWED SCHOOLS (IRELAND ) Mr. KIRLC rose to call the attention ofthe house to the report of the committee of endowed schools in Ire land, and to urge the necessity of prompt remedies being applied to the evils and abuses which that report dis close. The.hon. member entered into a hiaorical retro spect of five l arge classes of schools in Irelind, referring to the opinions expressed by the commissioners as to the manner in which they had been conducted from the tyriod of their several foundations, and tie perversion re.., their n f "mirth re the pi - teeny left to them. In 1695 the 7th et Wileiano ill. ace pee , ede daring that no person of the Popish relgion should teach in say of the schools in Ireland. Tois act con tinued in force for 86 years, and was repealed at the in stance of no lass a person than Howard the philan thropist. After the lapse of time, Sir R. Peel appointed the Clare-street commissioners for educations( purposes. In 1818, Hr. Grant, afterwards Lord Gleneg, obtained a grant fur these schools, and at the same time bore down many of those barriers which interfered with the freedom of religious instruction in Ireland. The House of Commons, iu 1824, issued a commission t) consider the subject, whose report was referred to a select com mittee, whose ultimate decision formed the Is=is of the system of national education in Ireland. In 1835 Mr. Wise's committee led to the establishment of tie Queen's C .11agea. The hon. member then gave a summary of the operation of these five classes of schotee, and the value of the lands held by the various societies. For 300 years these schools had engaged the attenton of the Legislature, but they had no: thriven owing to the want of proper management. The hon. member then com pared the ameuat of annual income derived by these schools with the xtsut of education provided, showing that the poor had not derived the benefits of which it was intend -d they should be the r nil i -nts. The evil !ay in the constitution of the various boards of managenent, the members being virtually self-elected, and by rea son of their other weighty avocations as dignitaries in the Church and judges of the land, not elig'nle for. -past which they filled. There was almost a total absence of any system of audit these schools. O.oe of these persons acting in tine capa city of auditordeclared to the commiesioners that he chi not know the meaning or the word "assets." (A l aug h.) The hoc. menber then gla nce d at the national school system in Ireland, contending that it had worked ad• alirably, and that it was the only one which could take root in that country. He altogether denied teat the soboo:s felling under the appellation of "nwional" were t,liable the epithet of godless. It was not true that the Bible woe exciudeti Item these schools. It was simply optional with the parents of children whether they should receive a purely secular or a mixsel religious and secular education. Ile hoped that the national system wool be retained in all its integrity, although lie deplored the circumstance that an inevitable cense qua a c e o f the system was materially to limit the teach ing of the chutes or the inculcation of science among the poor cf Ireland. He thought the time for interfe rence on the part of the Government had arrived, although La was prepared hi mse lf t o suggest a reme d y. The course he would recommend would be the appoint ment of a biard in D':blin, in whom should be vested th e sole eeltrol over the property of the e schools, and to whose deliberation no ex-officio deliberation should be elegible The middle classes of Ireland had strong & e k es upon the Governmeet, fir the old seheols open to them lad been knocked up by the national system of eduzatioie Prompt action was required in the matter, and therefore ttleee auttoried schools ought to be made available as boon as possible for the education of the middle cle sea of Ireland. (Hear.) The hon. member e e eenye e ii by moving that in the opinion of the house a remedy seelit to be applied to the evils pointed out in {he repute; el the el:dewed school commissioners of Ire land and had a commission on the receipts, The next chary(' wag 1641. 16;. ld. for commission on the sale of 1,9901. worth of timber, or 8 per cent.; whilst the next char4e, for selling 1,800/. worth of timber, wam 5 per cent. The next item wiz )181. for valuing the timber on the crown allotment, and it was valued at 36,790/., and sold f...r 48,3691., or 12,000/. mcire than the surveyor's estimate. Bat this was not the only charge en the timber on the Crown land, for the nexttcharge was 1,182/. for selliug the timber, so that the wholsebarge on this timbL r was `2,1001. Tee total charge on the land wag nearly 8,0001. for 3i yeara, but he would be bound to find competent men who would do it for 590/. a-year He would now proceed to the se,:ond branch of big 'notion —the ut:satib _ h.ctory manner of letting, and the subsequent manage ment: of the estate. There wr.e evidently no plan when the improvement commenced, for it was first pro posed to let the land for grazing purposes. It Waft clear that no one would offer much fur the land for that pur- puce, and accordingly tho attempt to lot the land hr iti4t purpose was futi:e, They then determined to drain and improve it;and, liaving done so, they ht part cf: the land for 31 years on lease, at 5 , an acre for the first year, 16i, for the second year, and for the r-sinainder of the term 235. and intere,t upon money laid eat by the Crown iu improvements. Tae nc xtyear they let the remainderat 9z. the first year, 14s. the second year, and 40s. for the re mainder of the term. The land let on the second occasion was, too, the worst part of the land, thOugh it fetched nearly double the rent, Immediately after the second letting the tenant, who was a very sagacious man with a large .capital, determined to alter the inteutiou which existed when the land was let to him, and turn it all into a vast market garden. The commiE , sioners assented to this, but he did not know whether when they assented they knew that they undertook a great future responsibility. A market gardener had claims for manure and other 'things at the termination of the lease which sometimes equalled the value of the fee simple. In addition, if 'the Lord NAAS readily admitted that it was scarcely p y ss i w e to in , roduce a question more worthy the atter,. Lion of t)e house. There could be no doubt that the position of intermediate education iu Ireland wad in a mo-t unsatisfactory state; uud on that account it was that a commission was appointed by the late Govern ment, it oic:er to invest:uate the subject. The commis. .sioner3 laid before Parliament a moat vnluminoca report, and that report disolosed a In , st extraordinary state of things with regard to these endowments. The commis sioners applied their minds with great energy U . . the subject, and it was quite cer t a in th a t th ey h a d published ----, niftir................ recollected that there w e r t several considerable items o . f , sulraieonenudtbe ;andwre ls a i se s ivieo fi iduf t litd f th o nw r e oa m gtarh a en r aao k ytt e eefi t rat ps g t sea a edr r nt d fto e oer n fd s tithto i at was tt w sap sbu a e s rsipun w oi o ; ee r ' dd, t et h fhvooe t rt w eemod i c mat e rmok t ii h eta e t: The motion was then -agreed to. supply yet to be voted. ; gardens. There w ere s i m il ar c i rcumstances connected SMALL ARMF ; AND THE RIFLE, 1 with the Crow n la n d s , f or h e f ound upwards of 91. an acre the Enfield, Whitworth, J aco b s ' and other rifles, had been was paid for draining purely a gr i cu l tura l l and in Sussex. SYthKeeExSperaismkeed rit I th fo e r of War v f a cr iu W eg a o r f whether Col. continued since last see sion, and whether a report of the Not only did this ü bi qu it ous surveyor manage all these results would be laid u pon the table before the close of estates in all parts of the coun t ry , b ut he should say that the present session ;wh ether the iron cup at the bottom his income for the la s t y ear was not lees than 10,0001. lie could trace payments to th e ex - ent of 5,000/., and there of the Enfield rifle hal l bad been abandoned, and a wcoden cup substituteel , a n d wh e ther the wooden cup were sufficient other t r an sac ti ons s h own in the report to might not be disper.sed with. lead him to believe that th e t ota l sum realised by the surveyor from the Wood s an d F orests Department was, pointed, "one cal ! ee l th e sma ll arms committee Gen. PEEL sae 1 there w ere t wo com mittees ap pointed, for last year, not muc h l ess than 10,000/. Thi s gentle ,, and a roan, Mr. Clapham, was no t a man cf great reputation had to test the re er it s o f a ll d escr ipti ons o f arms separate commitf.ee, which h a d t o t es t th e r e lative merits and eminence, and on e w h o h a d d one gocd service to his country. The commissi oners th emselves were probably of the Whitwort b an d th e E n fi e ld rises. As regarded the latter commeetee, a delay arose in consequence of to blame, who, from want of practical knowledge Mr. Whitwo r th no t h av i ng f urn i s h e d t h e num b er o f themselves, were oblig e d t o l ean f or support on practi rifles that he was a s k e d f or l a st y ear . With respect to cal men. The truth was th a t th e management of the the ammuniti on , Crown property devol ve d on an i rresponsible agent, hoe could assure the hon. and gallant They had a double gov er nm en t i n this office as well a s gentleman that there was no question of more import ance with reference to the efficiency of the Enfield rifle, in iadian matters—there was the commissioners' office and Mr. Clapham's, The civil li s t o f h er Majesty was and upon the a im nonitio n wo uld u lti ma t e ly d e pend the real value of that rifle. The iron c u p to which he al- 385,000/. a-year, an d if th ey cou l d i ncrease the income laded had already be e n do ne awa y w ith, but, at th e of the Crown lands 10 p er cen t, t h ey would very nearly balance the civil li s t, b y th e i ncome from the Crown present moment, W was impossible to do away with the wooden cup. Exp eriments were now going on, and be land". The Crown la n d s were i n great part precisely of had no doubt the -.result would be th a t the c ommittee that description whi c h th e great l andholders had found so profitable during the last 20 years, and a similar in would report in favour of the simple cartridge without cup or plug. There -was not the slightest doubt that in crease in the value o f C rown l an d s M i ght have been ob some respects the Whitworth rifle was superior to the twined by better ar rangemen t. (H ear.) Ile believed t Enfield, but whether it would be found superior in war that he had show n th a t in th e case of Hainault, which he could not say, was worth little m ore th an th e 150 th part of the whole RETIREMENT OF BISHOPS. royal estates, th ere was a wasteful expenditure of Mr. J. S. WORTLEY a sk e d th e S ecre t ar y o f St a t e . 21,000/. ; and s econ dl y , th a t t h ere had been an unwise dispasal of the prop er ty ; an d h av i ng shown theaa two for the Home Dep t i rtme n t whether it was in the contem- plation of her Majesty's things, he with co n fid ence as k e d the house to agree Majesty's Government tointroduce, durin g h i s resolution. to the present or the n ext session of Parliament, any general Mr. LINDSAY seconded the motion. measure to facilitate the retirement of bishops disabled Mr. G. A. HAMILTON said the resolution which by infirmity or old age. had been proposed embodied a condemnation of the Mr. WALPOLE said in the present session it was management of the office of Woods and Fore ts in refe certainly not the intention of her Majesty's Government to introduce such a bill. A s regar d e d t h e f uture , this recce to this particul a r es t a t e o f H ainault, and the hon. was one of the most difficult uestions that Parliament member also proposed by th a t reso l ut i on an express c ns q demnation of a gentl eman w h o , h e must say, was one of could have to deal with, and therefore he must decline to the most efficient and indefatigable officers in her Ma• give any pledge until he had turned the question over in esty's vrvice. He would state to the house very his mind, and considered whether or not anything could tl the • oh or y circumstances of the case. The hon. mein , be done in this matter, her b lan by ststiag that the resolution referred to the THE CORPORATION OF LONDON. forest of Hainault, which comprised 3,000 acres, and Mr. LABOUCHERE would be glad if the right hon. then he proceeded to speak of an expenditure as to the gentleman would tell them what course the Government Crown allotment of 1,900 Ames. The fact was that the intended to pursue with regard to the bill relating to forest of Hainault comprised an area of 17,500 acres. In the Corporation of the City of Londhn. 1851 an act *ail passed appointing commissioners, whose Mr. WALPOLE said the sight hon. gentleman would functions were to superintend the letting and improving remember that that was not strictly a Government hill, of the forest. These commissioners took 1,900 sores in It was a bill introduced by the late Government. He full satisfaction of the Crown rights, except those rights had given his best assistance with the view of putting it belonging to her Majesty as a commoner, including corn into shape, and the other day he tried to get it into pensation for the timber which was not allotted. Tue act committee, but unfortunately the attempt failed. He directed that the full expenses of thecommissioners should must now frankly say that in the present due of the be defrayed by the Woods and Forests, si ho werh to be session he saw hardly any prospect of the hill passing, repaid out of the timber. The hon. member spoke of the though he very much regretted the opposition which was expenditure on this 1,900 acres, and set it down at made to the motion for going into committee. , 67,000/. ; but the fact was that the whole expenditure of Mr. J. S. WORTLEY begged to ask the right hon. reclamation was 42,015/., the remainder being absorbed gentleman whether he had not since the discussion to by the commissioners and their functions. Tho 42,015/. which he had referred received from the Common Coun- made just 21/. 15s. an acre, and out of that 11,415/. oil a communication, agreed to unanimously, praying went for grubbing, which was very heavy in consequence that the measure might be proceeded with. of the ground being overrun with hornbeam. This came Mr. WALPOLE stud he had received such a cone- to Cl. 43. the acre. Before the reclamation the land pro munication—whether it were unanimous or not ho duced 500/. a-year, but since the reclamation it had been could not tell—but within two hours after receiving let at 1/. se. an acre, so that the expenditure of 11,4151. that communication he received another from the Livery had produced that rent. The expenditure was fer drain of London, praying that the bill might not be proceeded age, 81. 19.. the acre, which he admitted was heavy. with, (Laughter.) But the grsund was full of tangled roots, and the tenant AUSTRIA AND THE PORTE. was willing to pay Si. per cent. for the improvements —a Mr. G. DUFF wised the Under - Secretary of State tolerable proof that the expense was not excessive. The for Foreign sleeks whether her Majesty's Government third expense was for buildings, for which the tenant had been informed of, or believed in, the existence of any paid Cl. per cent., and he had received a letter from the talent, written or verbal, between Austri a a n d th e tenant testifying to the success of the buildings and im -hereby the former Power engaged to give assict- prevaments, which he said had transrorrned this rough -- *ter in case of an outbreak in European land into a valuable park. With respect to the payment of the surveyors, 5,8881., of which the hon. member complained, a great portion of it was for the disafforest ing, and the amount for reclamation was only 2,885/. It was, in fact, only the ordinary charg e of 5 pe r cent . Th e property entrusted t o th e Woods a nd Forests amounted to 300,0001. swear, but of that 80,000/, was in fee farm, and. 90,0001. was ground rent on loug leases, which could not be interfered with. Under all the circumstances he trusted that the house would not agree to a motion which involved a censure on an important branch of the public s rvice. , JUNE 30, 1858. a most -valuable and interesting report ; at the same time, it was tignallee true that wh en th ey came to the consideration of a 'remedy for the evils which they de scribed, the , commissioners were not so successful : The fact was, the greatest difficulty surrounded the question, 'in consequence of the variety of opinions which peevailed with regard to the system of educa tion to be adopted in these schools. The majority of the commissioners were in favour of the mixed system 012 education ; but Mr. Stephens, who re prre- presentedthe Church of E ng l an d on the cone= m i en ssion, mission, and Mr. Hughes, who represented the views of a large party of the Roman Catholics in Ireland, were entirely opposed to such a principle of educe cation, and declared its application impossible to the en dowed schools. It was obviously impossible, therefore, that ha the short time that remained of the session the Goyezeirment could make up its mind as to the manner in which the difficulty ought to be solved. The difficulties' which beset the question were very great, and it must be apparent that the Government could only arrive at a renaet'sy for an evil of such magnitude after the greatest coneideration. However, he could promise the house thast during the recess the subject would occupy a large esortion of the time of the Irish Government. Indeed, his noble friend the Lord-Lieutenant had already given much of his attention to the question, and had perused the whole of the voluminous report of the commissioners. Mr. GREER had hoped for a more explicit statement of the intentions of the present Government ; he thought they ought to have made up their minds as to the prin ciple of the measure which they intended to introduce next year. Ho must declare the country was greatly indebted to the honourable member for Newry for in troducing this subject to the notice of the house. Mr. GROGAN was also of opinion that the hon. gentleman had done good service in calling attention to the subject ; and he was happy to hear that the serious consideration of the Government was to be directed to grappling with it ; for a more important question could • not occupy the attention of any Government. At the same time he must thus early enter his protest against any principle of education being applied to these schools which was based upon the exclusion of the Bible. Mr. LEFROY was rejoiced to hear the announcement ' made by his noble friend, that the report of the commis sioners was to occupy the attention of the Government during the recess. At the same time he deeply regretted that the honourable member fer . Newry (Mr. Kirk) had deemed it his duty to make an attack upon the system of education adopted by the Church Education Society. Mr. DOBBS thought that the people of the north of Ireland were especially indebted to the hon. member for Newry, for bringing forward the question. He should give his most cerdial support to the motion. Mr. HASSARD said that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lelroy), in showing the effects of the national school., had stated that they would destroy the middle schools, and that the Queen's Colleges would be the only places in which education for the middle classes could be ob• tained. He believed the middle schools of Ireland were very efficient, and one, of which he had some know ledge, that of Waterford, was very ably conducted by a clergyman of the Church of England, but the religious views of the people were not interfered with. Mr. KIRK admitted that in some of the large towns these were good school.; of the class spoken of, and it was only because he did not wish to Waste the time of the house that he di I not enumerate them. The motion was then withdrawn. ORANGE LODGES, IRELAND. Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD rose to call attention to the Address of the House of Commons to his late Ma jesty King William IV., of the 24th day of February, 1836, and his Majesty's gracious answer thereto, and to the recent appointment of "Mr. Cecil Moore, grand se cretary of the Tyrone Orange Lodge, to the office of sessional Crown prosecutor of the county of Tyrone, and to move "That in the opinion of this house the appoint ment to offices connected with the administration of the criminal law of members of the Orange Confederation, or of any other political Confederation founded on principles of religious exclusion, inculcating secrecy on its members, and acting by means of delegates or representatives, and of affiliated branches, tends to create well-founded jealousy and suspicion highly detrimental to the ends of justice, and ought to be the couraged." He said the motion was one of great prac- , tical importance, affecting the welfare of the country, and he regretted that he should have to bring it on at so late an hour, and to abridge the observations he should have to make. -In 1835 and 1836 the subject occupied the attention of the house, when a select committee was appointed, the results of which showed that a state of things existed highly dangerous to the community. The committee proved that there existed a confederation bound by secret tests, numeering in Ireland 225,000, in England 14,500, and in Scotland an unascertained number, and from the wilds of Canada to the S rails cf Malacca there existed this Orange confederation all bound by the will of one man, the grand master, the object of wilich was political, controlling the Patliament and the executive, and that under the cloak of religion —that it perverted the course of justice—intruded itself on the bench, and divided the people into two great re ligious parties, which rendered amalgamation impossible. In 1336 it was pointed out that it always embraced among its members men of high character and honour, but entertaining designs at which every one must shud der. He did not intend calling the attention of the house at any length to what took place on that occa sion, but it had been said that at that time it was an illegal body, but that under its new organisation it was on a different footing —that now it was perfectly legal. When the question was formerly under the consideration of the house, the noble lord the present member for the city of London remarked that these societies invariably produced a perpetual source of quarrelling and - insub ordination, and that they generated party feelings which were most de3a..,t, outs to the welfare of the people, and obstructive of the pure stream of jus tice. He should attempt to show that if the Orange Confederacy was illegal and pernicious, in 1836, it had net lost that character now, and that the remarks which were mettle in reference to it then were just as applicable to it at the present time. That what Sir R. Peel, in 1835, termed dangerous associations were so still, and though he did not ask that they should be put down by force of law, he should press upon the house that her Majesty's Government should not give any encouragement to their members. He had stated in his resolution that he Would call attention to the address of the house to King William IV., of Feb. 24, 1836, and he should ask the house to pass a-resolution in - accordance with the pledge which was given in 1836 by the Duke of Cumberland, the grand master, that this confederation should be abolished in Great Britain and the colonies—a pledge which he might remark had never been carried out. That was the case he could prove by en Orange warrant issued on the 19. h of May in Louth, Ireland, some months after the pledge given by the Duke of Cumberland that there should be a dissolution of the confederation, which had been condemned, by the house as dangerous to the welfare of the country. (Hear.) He held in his hand an extraordinary document, namely, the records of the Orange lodge of Donegal, containing en tries from 1313 to 1823. This contained an entry, which stated that in consequence of a statute in opposition to illegal oaths, this society was abolished ; but eight days afterwards it was reorganised, all the change being that that part of the rules requiring the taking of an oath was rite'c • T"P ereereistee of 1835, appointed to inquire into the lodges ie leeieed, iepin , li:L f ,-. 1 their evidence. The committee appointed for Engianu did make a valuable report, to which he should have alluded, had it not been for the lateness of the hour. He might say, however, that this report contained the most alarming statements as to the result of the Orange asso ciations, and when it was known that similar associa tions existed now, he thought too much importance could not be directed to the subject. [Pile hon. and learned gentleman read extracts from the report, with a view to show the religious animosities which it was the tendency of the confederation to keep up.] In that re.. port he contended there was a full justification for every charge which he should allege against the confederation. In 1836 a regulation was put in force in accordance with which every man who was appointed a stipendary magis trate was compelled to take an oath, one part of which stated that during the time he held office he would not belong to any secret political society. That remained the law up to the present time, and be now sought to apply it to those who had the administration of the higher departments of criminal justice. It will be re membered that last year there were serious riots in Belfast, in reference to which a commission of inquiry was sent out. Before these commissioners Lord &anis killen appeared for examination, and he then produced the records of the society, remarking that the society had now nothing to conceal. lie (Mr. Fitzgerald) had compared the rules of 1824, 1836, 1845, and he defied e anyhone to prove that there was any essential differecce between them. (Hear, hear.) found in the recital of the objects of the institution that it was founded for the establishment of her Majesty's succession, the de fence of their property, and the defence of the religion of the Reformation, as well as to support the glorious memory of King William, and the peace and prosperity of the country. But when they said this they violated all their principles, for the glorious memory of King William they might all now join in perpetuating. (Loud cheers.) But this Orange association had done every thing they could to violate the principles of King William, and had ever proved themselves the ob structors of national liberty. (Oh, oh, and hear, hear.) Bat thee() resolutions were hypocritical pretences. If ken, gentlemen had any doubt about this, if.they had any doubt that the object of the association was to in sult those who differed from them, he would baud them the last song book of, the association. (Laughter and loud cries of "Sing, sing." A voice : "lie dpes sing ; he intones.r) The right hop. geutlemaii then read the rules and prayers of the association, in the latter of which they thanked God for protecting the country from Rotaish treachery. These resolutions reminded him of those of the Massachusett Puritans, which were :—" The earth is the Lord's and the illiPO4 tbgreof, O. The Lord hatb given the earth as an inheritance to his saint,. 3. We are his saints." (Laughter.) That the flange confederacy was a Recret society was from the fact that up to recent dates members had been ignominiously expelled f r divulging the secrets of the order, What the secreos of the Ordpr wpm ho peotested he could not understand, although he did not believe this absurdity that there were no secrets to be divulged. There were also expulsions fir marrying Papists, and of these cases he found 40 or 50 on the records before him. (Cries of "Oh, oh," and groans.) He proceeded tp vote icy s'anees of immphers of the Ciranze Lodge being excluded for divul4ing reerets. It had been laid do Nn that no one could be in the Queen's service, not even as a com mon soldier in the army, w h o b e l onge d to the society and he defied any one to show the difference between the old Orange institution and tde newly organiAed 80- city. He called on the boos© to, dispOup t ge Ego') so cieties ; 13r, much as Orangemen nsight lore their society or their country, th e y loved pl.sco bette r. i attention was directed la s t y ear t o thi s associat ion, !did he found that in sic ye ars th ere - were , no lessthan 433 , cases of offences arising from Orange prooessionP, and no less than 400 were in the county Down, where the so ciety chiefly flourished. An but tan were in the pro vince of Ulster. In county Down there was one case of murder, 32 of violence, one of manslaughter, and one which might, according to circumstaaces, be murder or manslaughter. He moved for an account of the number of cases since lie left office. Froth the return of Mr. Maxwell he found that within a short time there were 55 cases of a serious character tried at the assizes, of which all but eleven arose from Protestant processions, arid three from Catholic processions. Before 1845 there were nu merous cases, showing that law was defied and justice defeated where this society was in force. The funds of the society were applied to defend Orangemen who had been guilty of serious crimes. He would refer to the en try of the expenditure of the Orange lodgesbefore 1836, for he could not produce that Since 1836, as it was a secret society. (Hear.) He referred to the evidence be fore the committee for cases of money being given to de fend persons charged with murder, in one case after con viction. The same thing was done in England ;in one case 2001. having been voted for the defence of persons charged with serious infraction of the law. In one case also, the Scotch committee had given 641. to defend a brother "in trouble"--in trouble because he bad mur dered a policeman. (Oh, oh.) Mr. Bridge, a member of an Orange lodge, refused to give a character to a man because he was a bad character. He was subsequently convicted of murder, and Mr. Bridge was so persecuted fur not giving him a character, that he was obliged to leave the neighbourhood in which he resided. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Date? Mr. F ITZGE RALD-1827. The Chancellor laughed. (Immense cheering and laughter from the Ministerial side.) Mr. FITZGERALD continued —He did not see what there was to excite the laughter of the leader of that house in the fact that these things occurred in 1827 (hear)—or that the mention of the circumstance was abSurd because it occurred in '1827. He was confining himself to the question of criminal justice, because the question he was bringing forward related only to the administration of criminal justice. He alleged that though formally dis solved in 1836, the society had existed up to this day. Under a travelling warrant, granted in 1836, the society had been established in Canada, and he produced a Canada paper of the present year, in which there was a petition against the admission of members of the Orange body to the Legislature and against promoting secret societies. The petition was not received from want of form. In that petition it was said that unless their prayer was granted, the petitioners would be driven to arms in self-defence, and that trial by jury had become a mockery when mem bers of a secret society had the power of convicting the in nocent and acquitting the guilty. The Orangemen had as sembled in Canada in large numbers under that same Ogle Gowan, who received the warrant in 1836 to establish the Orange lodge there, and who was a clergyman of very bad character indeed. He had received a communication to the effect that Mr. Cecil Moore was not a member, but ha found his name in the report of Enniskillen, as " A.D.G.5.," which he re a d as " Assistant-Deputy Grand Secretary," and he believed that was the correct meaning, and his brother Mr. G. H. Moore. (Oh, oh.) It was no matter for derision. In 1855 they were found in other offices, and again in 1456. I n 18.i7 Mr. C. Moo re appeared as " U. 5.," which he interpreted as " Grand Secretary." He had not , a word to say against Mr. Moore personally. On the con trary, he believed him, from report, to be fully qualified, and the only objection to him was that he was a member of the society. He di I not wish to do him any injury. The office of sessional Crown prosecutor was not one with a large salary, but the duties were of great importance, and though the sessions could not deal with cases of a capital nature, yet, from the speedy and cheap administration of justice, the cases were becoming more important, and the Crown prosecutor had the whole conduct of prosecutions and the power of the Attorney-General in excluding jury men. He did not believe that Mr. Moore would even for his society violate his duty, but it would create well founded jealousy. Mr. Fitzgerald asked whether Lord C. Hamilton was the same Lord C. Hamilton who was in ducted to the Orange Society, decorated with emblems, and chaired through, the town in 1835 He quoted Lord Caledon's declaration that Lord Claude Hamilton had, by his share in the Orange proceedings, given him great trouble. At that time a police-officer was shot at, and a gentleman holding an important office found a threat ening notice in his prayer-book, and was fired at a few days after. The appointment was defended on the ground that Mr. Moore had ceased to be a member of the society, and that a memorial in his favour had been signed amongst others by a Roman Catholic priest and a Roman Catholic bishop. Thera h a d b een an assert i on that he (Mr. Fitzgerald), when in office, bad given an appointment to a person who had been one of the leading rebels in 1818, but that was wholly untrue. (Hear, hear.) He knew that the course he was taking was likely to expose him to enmity, especially in Ireland, but he could not help that. He could only express his feelings in the words of the mo tion which he there repeated. He quoted a declaration of the Downshire Protestant, an organ of the Orange lodges, that if Lord Derby's Government did not support the society they would not be supported by the Protestant con stituencies in Ireland. Ho then proce ruled to road a pas sage from the report of the commissioners on the Belfast riots ; and he concluded amidst loud applause from the Opposition. 1 • The O'DONOGHOE seconded the resolution. - Mr. WHITESIDE said that great questions awaited the decision of the house, and the hon, gentleman had wasted his time, not in endeavouring to compose dissensions, but in reviving forgotten calumny and restoring disagreeable subjects by stray paragraphs from newspapers and ex ploded reports supported by no facts, though his eloquence was spicy and sarcastic. (Hear.) What had Government done? What were the facts ? That an honest, competent, and respectable man had been appointed to a place of 1401. a-year, for which he was admitted to be competent. He did not deny that there were abuses of patronage. He had 'seen men in office who deserved to be banged. (Laughter.) Ha had known men on the Treasury Bench who were a dis honour to their country, who would corrupt any assembly, and would have destroyed the liberties of their native land. (Cheers and laughter, " Name, name," renewed laughter.) Macaulay haul written the history of this association, and had decribe.l their services to the country. Many painful stories might be told of the history of either country; but it was not the duty of a patriot to revive painful associa tions. The attack was made on the Orange Associatio n , as if the Governme n t h a d t a k en the Orange Association under its wing. There had been an inquiry in 1836, and it was di rected that the Orange Society ought to cease, as the occa sion for it was at an end. Everyone spoke moderately, and Mr.. O'Connell said the time waa come when party strife should be at an end. The resolutions wore levelled against all secret societies, and it held that the existence of such societies was an evidence of something wrong in the body politic. But ho was a narrow-minded man who, in consi dering questions respecting such a society, did not reflect on the history of the country and the time when it flourished, and on the circumstances which brought it originally into existence. These men were then called upon to dissolve, and did so ; now, for the first time, hypocrisy had been charged against them. Their books were scattered, and he was at a loss to know how the book the right hon. gentle. man had quoted from had got into his possession. The right hon. gentleman had failed to state why the society had been reorganised, a circumstance he (Mr. Whiteside) very much regretted. The society being at an end, Mr. O'Connell predicted halcyon days for Ireland, and the Protestants of Ireland were ready to believe in it, but the true history of the country for the eight subsequent years were to be found in the statute-book. The year before the reorganisation of the society Ireland was in a lawless state, and the crime of Ireland had doubled in enormity that of the previous year. With regard to the political change ho would not charge Mr. O'Connell with hypocrisy, dissimulation, or the hope of gaining money from his countrymen by adopting a course he disapproved of, but he was inclined to believe that Mr. O'Connell intended by his course of action to regenerate his country. It was a manly policy, but how did he carry it out? Why, by agitation in order to separate England from Ireland ; and frisfrafe his scheme this society was reorganised for the eup e e; ei sr. ! , g ion, Ido o f th o monarchy, maintaining the Union, and the British pewee in Ireland. (Hear.) At that time the people of Ireland believed Mr. O'Connell intended to effect what lie sug gested ; but he need not inform the house how much Pee people of Ireland -were disappointed in the result, The organisation of the society took place at a tinne teat justi fied it. Clubs at that time were to be formed of 500 men each, and each man was to bo armed- and when 300,000 men were so enrolled they were to act ; and it was to meet that organisation that the Orange societies were reorga nised. (Hear,) At the time of the reorganisation, how ever, uo oath, test, or secrecy was observed. The meetings were open to the police, and the only object the Ministers I had was to preserve order and the supremacy of the Crown and the Protestant religion in that country. The late Go vernment, however, sanctioned its reorganisation by allow ing 6001. worth of guns being received by the members to defend the Union, the monarchy, and the Protestant reli gion against the coutemplated attack of that day. (Hear.) It was such motions as these that inflamed resentments that ought to be forgotten in Ireland, and he denied tha't the province of Ulster was in the state it had been de picted by the right hon. gentleman. There had been rio'ee in Belfast, but they had been put down successfully, and property was secure and was as high in value there as in any other part of Ireland. Was there over such a grievance submitted to the House of Commons as the one that had been submitted by the right hon. gentleman, viz., that of his (Mr. Whiteside) having appointed this gentleman to the office of sessional Crown presenter, on the recommen dation of men of position in the country, as a man of most respectable character, and fully qualified for the discharge of the duties; and when the late Crown Solicitor was in disposed, he was obliged to find a substitute, and the sub stitute, approved of by the right hon, gentleman the late Attorney-General for Ireland (Mr. Fitzgerald), was then Mr. Cecil Moore. (Cheers.) The sight hon, gendarme referred to a memorial he had received from the deputy lieutell2nts, magistrates, gentry, and clergy of Tyrone, testifying their hearty approval of the selection of Mr. Moore for the office of sessional Crown prosecutor. Amongst the memorialists were fcur Roman Catholic priests, and many dissenting persons. (Hear.) And of nineteen or twenty attorneys in the county, sixteen or seventeen of thorn haul testified to the excellency of the appointment. (Hear, hear,) He was not aware I.llr. Cecil Moore held office iu the Orange Association when he appointed him to office. He ha I held it during th e st kg , the late Itliniery were in office, but ho had since resigned it, and therefore the resolution proposed to affirm what did not eeist, and he (Mr. Whiteside) was informed that for a year and a half Mr. C. Moore had not joined in friendly meeting with the Orangemen in the county in which be lived. (Hoar, hear.) That would be an illiberal, intolerant, and mistaken Government that did not avail itself of th e services of every man, whatever were hie political opinions, if his private and public c )nduct was correct and proper. He never inquired into the political opinions of his subordi nates; and only interfered in rof ersnce to the qualifications and fitness of the iren for the o ffi ce he aspired to fill. (Hear, hear.) Ike bad never complained of the appoint ments e t tee eight hon. gentleman (Mr. Fitzgerald) of organ Catholics to public offices, bat one Protestant official that he (Mr. Whitesid e ) had appointed had been made the subject of impeachment. (Cheers.) This motion taewace s athat revival to ht of the worsta speciea of persecution and prac vg been forgotko. Mr. C. M oore, 1,1 when he hearcl of the motion, tendered his resignation, but h e 04.. Whitiale) declined to accept it * and be was sure (Hoar, hear.) the house would support hire irk that determination, bring forward sleet; g It Was llp,ithw wise, politic, nor just to motion as this, and on such grounds, and he express:sea a hope that before long ho should see the and,., of' Ireland a unifier, happy, contented, and free peoPle, casting from them the rag of ancient prejudice, and pressing on with that high emulation which became a wise, ppacectll, alui a happy people. (Cheers, and cries of Mr. TITZGEFCALD, amid loud cries of "Divide," rose to make a personal explanation as, to the appointment of the sessional Crown prosecutor, which he stated had not been made by hire, If the right hon. gentleman bad stated ‘9, Uitg OW Mr. Cecil Moore had ceased to be a member of the confederation, he would not have made this motion. (Hear, hear, and oh, oh.) Mr. CHICHESTER. FORTESCUE said a few words in explanation of the appointment of the sessional Crown prosecutor. Lord PALMER 'TON could not allow the debate to close without expressing the pain he felt at this apparent revival of animosities connected with a state of things which they had hoped had altogether ceased, or was fast dying out. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. and learned gentleman had stated that Mr. Cecil Moore) had resigned the prominent office he fornierly hold in • the association in question, and, if he understood him correctly, they might hope that the influence of the Government would be used to induce those who were connected with such associations to consider, with them, that the time was past when they were necessary or could be justified. (Hear.) If the house should be of opinion that from that intimation of the right hon. and learned gentleman there was a prospect that those ancient feuds and differences which in times past had caused so much disturbance and injury, and had so mate rially interfered with the progress and prosperity of Ire land, would, so far as the influence of the Government was concerned, be discouraged and put an end to, he hoped that no division would be taken upon the resolution brought forward by his right hon. and learned friend-- (oh, ob, and cheers)—or that they would, by recording what might be regarded as a triumph by the one party or the other, do anythi ng th a t m i ght by possibility encourage those differences or interfere with that haruue y which it was to be :loped was now in course of being established. (Cries of " withdraw, ' and "divide.") Lord J..RITS3 ELL considered that there was more in. volved in the discussion than the mere personal question. Having heard the statement of the right hon. and learned gentleman as to the opinion of Protestants and Roman Catholics in favour of Mr. C. Moore's fitness for the office he thought he had done right in not ac , opting that gentle man's resignation. With regard to what had occurred in 1836—(0h, oh)—he might mention that there bad been in the previous year an inquiry which justified the house in the strong proceeding it then took. He (Lord J. Russell) endeavoured to interpose, and was fortunate enough to induce Lord Stanley (she present Earl of Derby), the late Sir R4Peel, and the late Mr. O'Connell, to unite in a gene ral resolution condemning secret societies generally--to which Mr. O'Connell agreed, on condition that Orange societies should be included. The committee no doubt thought all such societies were most objectionable, as the one necessarily encouraged the prcmotion of another of an opposite kind to counteract its influence, and thus the difficulties of Government were increased. Ho would ask the right hon. gentleman the Home Secretary whether he thought it desirable now to overturn and repudiate that resolution of 1836 ? Was the Government or the house prepared to say that, whether as regarded Roman Catho lics or Protestants, it was desirable to encourage them by appointing to office men who were connected with exclu sive religious societies, which had branch societies affiliated with them in different parts of the country? And yet if i• they passed a simple negative of this motion such would be the effect. (Hear.) He would not say how they might es cape that difficulty, but it appeared to him that it would be more advimable if they went° adopt some p l an b y which a decision might be avoided. (Hear, and oh.) It was the interest of every government that such societies should not exist in that, though they might have been justified in the first instance— though they might have been called into life by some emergency, in which, under the expectation of re bellion, loyal men united to defend the Crown at a period of danger when that necessity had passed over it was most inadvisable that they should be any longer continued in a state of activity. (Hear) It was , on the cont rar y desirable that these ani mos iti es which had , so long prevailed in Ire land should be allowed gradually and permanently to sub side, and ho could not bat think that a decision on this motion, whatever way it might be, would tend to retard that result and have a most injurious effect. The righthonee and learned gentleman, as he understood, expressed his wish that such societies should no longer exist, 'but he did not understand him to say that it would be the policy of the government of which he was a member to discourage them by all the means in their power. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it was the duty of every government to discourage political societies in Ireland whether open or aecret, and he thought the best mode of carrying out that policy was by discourag ing such motions as the present. (Cheers.) In the days • when he first c a m e into Parham ent the chief st a pl e of poli tical controversy was motion% of this kind, and he hoped that such a course had been 'discontinued, but he had been disappointed. IVhen the nellelord, after the answer of his right hon. friend the Attorney-General for Ireland, rose in a spirit of admonition and warning, and called on his right hon. friend the Secretary of State to declare whether it was the policy of the Government to act in contravention of the resolution which was come to in 1836, he must be al lowed to say that nothing had been stated by the hon. gentleman who had brought forward the motion, or by his right hon. friend - which justified the opinion expressed by the noble lord. The right hon. gentleman who brought forward the moti on h a d entirely failed in his case—(lond cheers)—aed be ought not to have sought to revive suck unhappy causes of dissol s'on without having duly inquired into the cirueunstances of the case; and he (Mr. Disraeli) trusted that the manner in which the remarks - of the right hon. gentleman had been received, and the observa tions of his hon. friend the Attorney-General for Ireland, in which ho entirely agreed, Could offer no encouragement to such motions for the future. He trusted that the policy of the Government towards Ireland would be one entirely adapted to the changed circumstances of that country, and when motions were brought forward, and allusions made such as they had listened to that night, which were adapted to circumstances very different to those now happily existing in Ireland; and which re ferred to habits and customs now fortunately obsolete, he could only say, on the part of the Government, that their course would be adapted to the newer and happier circum stances of the sister kingdom, and that their policy would be—what he hoped would always be the policy of those who sat on those benches—just, generous, and coeciliatory; not acknowledging any differences of creed or of party save those which could be constitutionally expressed; and the tenor of their policy would not be such as to justify the recognition of such motions as this. He did not know what were the intentions of the right hon. gentleman perhaps he would not call on the house to divide ; but be (Mr. Disraeli) could not consent to the withdrawal of the motion. (Hear.) • Mr. ROEBUCK, who was met with loud cries of "Divide," and "Question," said that he thought, the motion was intended to be confined to one part of it ; and if so, he should have voted for it. But it seemed that it - was meant as a distinct censure on a particular act. Because he was sure from the form and wording of it, that it was meant to pass a direct censure on the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Whiteside), be could not vote for it—(hear, hear)-- for the statement of the right hon, genqeman was a com plete vindication of himself—(ioud cheers) --and, believ ing that, he could not vote for the motion. (Loud cheers.) Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD who was met with loud cries of " Spoke," " Divide," and " Question," said that after %hat had fallen from the noble lord, he felt that he ought not to press the motion to a division. (Cheers.) The motion was then put and negatived. (Tremendous cheering.) NAVIGATION (IRELAND). Mr. G. A. HAMILTON obtained leave to bring in a bill to extend the time for making advances towards naviga tion in Ireland, under the provisions of an act of the 19th and 20th Vic., chap. CI CORRUPT PRACICES AT ELECTIONS. Mr. WALPOLE obtained leave to bring in a bill to continue and amend the Corrupt Practices Prevention Act, 1854. It wai intended to continue the present act for a year and till the end of next session. It also amended the act in reference to the travelling expenses of electors and the expenses of election auditors. LAW' (IRELAND) BILL. The order fo rt he second reading of this bill was dia. charged. FUNED T BILL. This bill was road a D third DE time and passed. The other orders of the day wale postponed, and the house adjourned at twenty minutes to two. Country Markets. LIT.EttPuOL, JUNE ( "9. The market was rather better to-day than on Friday, and a good demand prevailed for flour. LEEDS, JUNE 29. The supply of wheat was moderate to-day, and we had scarcely any arrivals from the coast during the last few days. Wheat in more active demand, and all descriptions have improved in value is per qr. over the rates of last Friday. Bailey nominal. Beans firm. Little passing in other articles. Averas for the week Wheat, 423 101 d 1 Oats,:-- 26s 6d Peas, 41s Od. Barley, 30s 10d 1 Beans, 41s 100 I ltye, 33s lid. NORWICH CATTLE—JUNE 26. There was a large show of Scots, short-horns, and Irish exhibited to-day. Trade inactive. • Fat beasts, 6s 6d to 7s 6d ; prime, 8s Od per stone; being about same as last week. Sheep, 358 to 408 per head, and good store pig s, 153 to 20 3 . F at pork, Gs to 6a Gd per stone of Hib b s; trade dull. PZ:OVISION MARKET. Beef, per lb ..... to 7441 I Butter, p pt. is 4d t o I s 5d Mutton, p e r 1b.... (Ad to 7d Eggs, par 18, Os ai to is Od Lamb, do., Os 941 to On 1 Hens, p pair ,Os Od to Os 01 Veal, per lb ... 6Ad to Os 7o I Chickens,do.4s Od to 6n Od Pork, per 1b...0s 53d to 6d Ducks, do., 4s 6d to 6k: 63 Salmon, per lb ..........Os Od Dueklings,d4s Od to 2s 61 Grouse, p er brace-.Os to Os I Turkeys, each Os Od to 04 Od Tallow, p stone, Os to —a Od Potatoes, per pt., ....3d to 5d The Brazilian Government gunboats Araguary, Araguay, frahy, and Iguateney, from London, arrived at Plymouth on Monday afternoon en route for LisbJu and Rio Janierci. BIRTIiS. • BRODRICK —On the 2Gth inst., at 23, Chester-square, the wifo of William Brodriek, Esq., of a daughter. GALE—On the 28th inst., at Colne Cottage, U x b r id ge, the wife of William Gal e , sq., of a SOU. KINTORE-011 the 27th inst., at 7, Ainslie-plan, Edinburgh, the Countess of Kintore, of a daughter. PETO—On the 24th lest., at the residenel of her father, 3S, Acacia-road, the wife of Charles Peto, Esq., of a daughter. MARRIAGES. CHRISTIE —BRIDGMAN —On the 29th inst., at the parish church, Woolwich, J. R. Christie, Esq., F.R S., to Emily, (laugh ter of Dr, Bridgmau, of Woolwich-commou. MORGAN —MARSHALL—On the 28th inst., at St. George's Bloomsbury, William, second sou of Cr, J. Morgan, Esq., of Canterbury, to Mary Louisa, the elder daughter of Mr. Marshall, of Great Coram-stro2t, Bruuawick-square.. IY,E A T II S. extant Ens - On the 27th inst., William Chatnburs, Eq., of 10, Limes Villas, Lewisham, and late of Maddox-street, aged 69. CLEAVER.—Onthe 28th inst., at 31 A, Halsepstreet, Thomas Henry CleaTer, Esq., late of Stationery-offiee ; aged 62. Cole—On the 2Sth iost. at 22, Oxford-road, Islington, the Rev. Henry Cole, late of Clam College, Cambridge, aged 66. KEARNEY—On the 25th inst., at 114, Iloihorn, William Hy. Kearney, Esq., Member of the New Society of Painters in Water Colours, aged SS. Score—On the :35th inst. on board the R.Y.S. sc h ooner Alca, off Falmouth, Charles F. Scott, Esq.,.of 7, Kensing ton-park-gardens, Hyde-park, aged 31. - - LONDON t Printod and Published by ..".1.U1t1)0 Y ()UM. , of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at ha 311* Whoa, So. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county of Aliddleac , x, Wothaosday, Ju ne 30, 1858. 7 , Bat /nE iZnsura I 71s , an ~Osp.l or IDect Chtel ', Ran D INT 41 Sc ' been 0 Z il eleg c 'Prlnr; nn al . p pr deatl trace. r e C i 11 I %%sic !he , r r , ( ALLE and Gy o Per duais. Res ate Lee, 1 fron ‘tes 1 ,tr De'c 'first N able b Zber Profe , fiber rse of roc( be pc tors, I nesd ion ti X'B y , 3 t l rect i 'XS ded Roll( Capital Itevent Ine•t4 'tided a ) ,M1 Prc A rofli 'dire di Toe B, "kr cc i tanl The 1i Ong trtiPANl tvellei ae ter taniu John F.li kosa L r t he 'lay. ........... Poliej taker %It in 142, ,__ biltvir Paton Tit 4 voi. Ro t Irat conga too t o otro ni !lo w that 4 RI At effect eradi f erny tfrini °alba ruin ~~