The Sun. — London, England, 1858-05-04 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. - - HOUSE OF LORDS.—(YEsTBRDAY.) The LORD CHANOELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clock. SUFFERINGS AT CANNP° RE • In reply to a question by the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, asking whether there would be any objection to produce a certain document to which reference had been made ae " not received," The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he thought the words "not received" had been written in India. He thought no good whatever would result from placing ac-• counts of individual suffering at Cawnpore before the public ; on the contrary, he thought further debate wou ld only create feelings inconsistent with good go vernment and good legislation. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY said that he should persevere until the doctaiient ww The Earl of ELLENBOROfIi said he was uncer tiin whether the document alluded to was really in existence. had only been laid on the table in February. The report was signed by only three commissioners ; one of the others dissented from the whole; the other, Mr. Hughes, dissented from the powers proposed to be given to the board with regard to mixed schools. Under these cir cumstances he thought he was no t as ki ng t oo muc h on the part of the Government that they should not be ex pected to come to a conclusion on a matter of such im portance, involving such grave interests, without the most serious and deliberate consideration. The improve ment of the middle-class education in Ireland was a mat ter of paramount importance, especially since the insti tution of the Queen's colleges had done so much for the education of the upper classes ; and under the national school system the primary instruction of the lower orders was so much improved, it was desirable that the educa two of the middle classes should keep pace with those above and below them. With regard to the proposal of the commissioners, he fully admitted their labour and dil gence, but he must be allowed to refrain from pledg siehgouhldimrseeclefitvoe atdhoeprtnetheteierarreecfuolmemonensiddaetriaotni.enTchf eherreport Ma jesty's Government and of the Government in Ireland ; h ie t a h , e a L nd or h d e L w ieu eu te ld na f n ee t l w g o r u ea ld t direct b h j i e s c p t ar was tie one a e r pleasure if he could, eithe r b y followin g the recommen dations of the commissio ners, or b y means of the infor thatwtehniet tion they had prepared, find any means of promoting obj*icts of such deep interest. The Earl of CARLISLE said that the observation of the noble earl bad relieved him from the necessity of con tinuing the discussion ; but knowing what was passing in Ireland, he felt bound to say that it was impossible to estimate too highly the labour, perseverance, imparti ality, and candour of the commissioners, who had been selected by his predecessor in office (Earl St, Germains). Their report contained a mass of most useful matter, de serving the most deliberate consideration of the Govern ment and Legisla'ore. He regretted that he had not had time to make himself master of its voluminous contents, but it was clear that the existence was proved of great and manifold abuses, which called for a remedy. The education given in Ireland, in the primary schools under the National Board, would compare with any thing in England, but there was a striking inferiority in the middle class schools. The details given in the re port showed that there were great facilities for remedy- SECOND READINGS. On the motion of Lord REDESDALE the following bilk were read a second time :—Aberdare Water, Merthyr Tydvil Water, Selkirk and Gateshead Railway, Folke stone Water, Ely Valley Railway, and Liskearl and Lore Union Canal Companies. GAME LAWS. .A noble lord asked whether there was any intention meths part of the Government to amend the Game Laws. The LORD CHANCELLOR said the subject not having been considered by the Government he could give no definite answer to the question. THE COURT Of CHANCERY. Yiscou.nt CLIFFORD asked the noble and learn e e r d e lord on ti:e woolsack, whether any further steps were to be taken in exdite causes in the.Cdoutto f question of The LORD CHANCELLOR sat the noble vie count was so generally r e 't fgChan his - cery. Me, however, that he had been precludedrauu offromt worded, e Curtdicin o inquiries to any particular b complained of the delays that took place, more particularly besfaoyre thate ch a i ll ef th cl e erk iu s fe a r t : Chambers, b u t he must nation he ha d been able to collect did hot confirm the noble lord's comp l ain t, He found that ' instead of the business being conducted in a very dilatory and Unsatisfactory manner, the contrary was the case, sa h e found that the chief clerks pursued and transactee their business in as expeditious a manner as possible. If the noble lord would point out a ny particular branch in which delay was unnecessarily caused, he would institute an immediate and searching Lord CRANWORTH must say that he had no recol lection of the candid but not very courteous answer of his to which the noble viscount referred. With regard to the complaints made by the noble earl with respect to the delay in the chief clerks' offices, he must say that he thought them if not absolutely unfounded, at least grossly exaggerated. He bad before now inquired into this matter, and the thing he found was that sometimes when parties wanted to proceed on a particular day the pressure of other joesiness would not allow the chief clerk to appoint a Iday for taking up their case until a day or two after the one which they were anxious to have. This must occur with any tribunal. It was im possible for any court having a large amount of business to transact so to be constituted that the suitor could, as it were, at any time ring the bell of the court, and say, " Now just take up my case." Each matter must take its tarn, and beyond the delay which this necessarily created, he believed that no delay whatever arose. Lord CAMPBELL said that the practice of 'putting off causes from time to time was a very objectionable ohe. It was the thing which had been the ruin of the system of the Masters' offices. Lord ST. LEONARDS said that the practice in the chief clerks' chambers was by no means similar to the old practice before the masters. The intention of the Legislature was not to put the chief clerks in the situa tion of the masters, but to give them as subordinate officers to the judges, in order that the latter might with their aid do that which the masters had formerly done. The Court of Chancery should make it a rule that when it took up any particular matter it would not leave it until it was concluded ; bat at the same time he was bound to admit that from what he had seen of the chief clerks he had the highest opinion of their capacity and industry. Lord LIFFORD said if it could be shown that the statement upon which his complaint was founded was untrue he would at once admit that he was wrong in the position he had taken up, but in the absence of any di rect proof to that effect be should retain the opinion he had already expressed in this matter. The subject then dropped. ENDOWED SCHOOLS IN IRELAND. The Earl of CORK called the attention of the house to the report of the commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of endowed schools in Ireland. The com missioners were appointed, he said, in 1854, and the duty entrusted to them was to ascertain the state of the schools ; the mode of managing the funds that supported them, and the nature of the instruction given in the schools. Having made themselves masters of the entire subject, they were to report the evidence, together with the opinions they had formed in collecting it, to her Ma jesty. Subsequently to the appointment of the commis sioners difficulties arose in the way of pursuing the in quiry in consequence of the refusal of parties interested in the endowments to admit the authority of the com. missioners, and -an Act of Parliament was passed to enable them to carry out the investigation. After a most diligent inquiry, the commissioners made their report, which had now for some time been before Parliament, and although it formed no part of his intention to die cuss its merits, ho must yet trouble their lordships with a few extracts from it. The middle classes in Ireland were daily becoming alive to the importance of securing a sound administratio n f ur t h e i r endowed schools. Th ey saw the benefits that resulted to the poorer classes from the working of the national system, and they were at a loss toconceive why some system of management equally efficient could not be devised for securing to their chil dren the full benefits of the endowed schoois. The noble lord then proceeded to quote largely from the report of the cornmis,ioners to show that the management of en dowed schools in Ireland generally was grossly defective —not only as regarded the nature and quality of educa tion given by them, but also as regarded the husbanding and distribution of the estates with which they were en dowed. The middle classes of Ireland were anxiously waiting to see what course the noble earl at the head of the Government intended to take in consequence of this report, and he should be rejoiced to learn that the noble HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) earl was alive to the importance of applying sonic reme d to the defects which th e commissioners pointed min y The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. The Earl of DERBY said that the noble lord had tor- PRIVATE BUSINESS. reetly stated that the commissioners were app ointed in The followin g bills were read a third time and 1854. They found it n ecessary i n the course o f their in- p o a e s e s , ed en :— d o ß e ir r m u in a g d h ß am uad. Canal Navigation, Beentford quiry to appoint four assistant comm i ss i oners; they had The fo llowing bills wer3 further considered and also a very extensive staff of clerks and short-hand ordered to be read a third time :—Cornwall Railway, writers, and the result of their labours they had embodied Eastern Counties Railway, London and South Western in four large folio volumes. To one of these, which con- Railway, Plymouth Great Western Docks, Stokes Bay Railway and Pier, and Trent Navigation. tamed upwards of 200 pages, the noble lord had just HAINAULT FOREST (ALLOTMENT OF COM called attention, but the others no doubt embraced MONS) BILL. equally valuable information, though of a somewhat ex- Mr. HAMILTON nominated the following Select tended nature, as might be gathered from the fact that Committee on Hainault Forest (Allotment of Commons) the expense of printing it cost 5,2001, while the quantity Mr. Bi l! D—eMedre.s,tmiwltoan,, B M er r e . sf litmore. Mr. Crawford, of paper which the publication of it had consumed and five members to be added i b a y nd th M e r C j om ag in N i V tt i e lson f amounted to no less than 15 tons. (A laugh.) He did Selection—five to be the quorum. e e not know whether the noble lord who had put this ques- IRISH RETENUE POLICE. Mr. F. RUSSELL moved for copi es o f a memorial tion to him h a d found leisure to make himself master of - from the o ffi cers of the late Irish Rev enue P o li ce to the this light reading ; but f or hi mse lf, h e mus t con f es s th a t he had n o t yet h ad an Lords of the Treasury, presented on the 23 c 1 d ay of y time to go through it. The re- March last to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with port was not that of the commissioners, but only of the the accompanying statement of the present and of the majority, as it was only signed by three of them, while othertwo ab solut e l y and entirely dissented from all the the conclusions to which their colleag ues had come. Far minute made thereon.—Agreed to. be it, however, from him to dispute the labour , the in- WESTERN BANK OF SCOTLAND. dustry, and the value of the inquiry , an d he had no heel- Mr;BRADY gave notice that he should to-morrow tation in saying, that in the manageme nt y of m any d of the " put a question to the Lord-Advocate relative to the schools there appeared to have been great a nd Western Bank of Scotland. ustifi able neglect. The commissioners bad g eneceeCled u i nj THE INDIAN PRESS. instances in demonstrating the want of sufficient audi t Mr. MAGUIRE gave notice that he should to-mor of the funds of these schools, and of proper schoolmas row present a petition from the Madras Presidency rele , tern to conduct the educaton given in them. It was not tive to the Press Act. desirable to enter then into any discussion of the indi APPOINTMENT OF MAGISTRATES FOR THE vidual cases of mismanag emen t : i t was enough for the - BOROUGH OF CANTERBURY, purposes of the discussion to admit that mismanagement Mr. JOHN LOCKE (Southwark) gave notice that he did exist. But what was the remedy which three out of should on cally theFrida-attention of the house to the the fiVe coMMissiOnera proposed fiir rem e dyi ng th e d efects? recent ap pointment of justices of the peace for the bo- The commissioners were the Marquis of Kild are , D r. roug h of Canterbury. Graves, Mr. Andrews, members of the Irish b ar; M r. MERCANTILE LAW OF CANADA. H. G. Hughes, the fete Solicitor-General for Ireland, Mr. VANCE asked the Attorney-Generalif his af-• and Mr. A. J. Stephens a member of the English bar. et, tenti on h a d b een called to the present state o f the mer- HughesandAir. Stephens were the dissentients fro m the cautile law of Canada, which sanctions preferential conclusions at which the other three had arrived. The eese. assignments o f d e b tors ' e' ffects, without affording any miseioners proposed to make a distinction in the schools, means of redress to the general body of their creditor: ? and to divide them into non-exclusive and exclusiv e The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he was unable school , . With regard to all non-exclusive schools it was to afford any inforMation on the subject. It was one ex proposed that a new board should be established on the elusively within the cogni - iance of the Canadian Legis principle of the National Educatiou Board, and composed lature. The Attorney-G eneral for Engl and had co of persons varying in their reli g ious persuasion. Ti was means of taking th e fi na l step towards redressing any proposed that th e b oar d s h ou ld have an office in Dublin such grievance as that alluded to. —a solicitor, an inspector, an audit department, with a BANDFMRST AND WOOLWICH. paid treasurer, and various other officers, and that the Mr. LYGON asked Viscount Palmerston whether charge of supporting the board should be thrown upon the minutes relative to the recent alterations at Sand the Consolidated Fund. That was the first proposition. burst and Woolwich were submitted to, and sanctioned The next was, that all endowed school:7, of whatever (Is- by, the late Government or not. (Cheers.) nomination, provided th e y were non - exc l us i ve , s h ou ld Lord PALMERSTON raid hi s no b le friend Lord Panmure showed him the draft of a regu l ation to form be placed u n d er th e ac t ua l an d , as he understoo d , tt, e t sole control of the new b oar d ; th a t th ey s h ou ld k eep a the new arrangements referred to, and, ge nera ll y speak register f or th e en t ry o f b equests, and that all Co ing, it seemed to him (Lord Palmerston) to be very r i ght Comes of and proper. It involved two material points. O ne was Prolsate should furnish th em with extracts of such wills that young men who wishe I to become competitors f or as left money for th e es t a bli s h ment o f new or the cup - Port of existing schools ; that th e management o f all exatninwion in the scientific branches. instead of re g i s - P a pers connected with the property of the school , and tering their names at the office of the Secretary of State the ehtronege of the endowed schools vested in the lord- for War, lieutenant should be transferred t o them ; and that the fun e ds of me th u e in were to register them at the Commander Chief's. The other was that competitors for coin. be from Sandhurst endowed_ imbeds should be brought into missions in scienti fi c branches should on then, and distributed by them amongst the instead of those educated elsewhere, which was sag differentedby ne These b were some of the powers to be g to be both exterisiv w e and e x ested with a view of imps - the education at and certainly they appeared Sandhurst, with the understanding that if the change most serious Consideration tx le a :f prop ;sal could be rdinaryaud demanded the was objected to competitors should be taken one had made to put them in force. H: r e e • it might not be found necessary j'e,ether th from Satelburst, and one half from elsewhere. With no not meals to say that gard to the part of the question omitted, e h in the constitution of these schools, b mak e some a lt erat i on m i nute bore any minute of h i s ( L or d P a l mers t on ) Come to the conclusion, on th e re but rthoef would say t o ' in his ow n h an d wri ti ng , h e was una bl e th en to give :se one opt of five, to transfer the whole of these Majority of answer, but he had no doubt his right hon. friend the all their endowments to a new board to be seceireols and Secretary h r War (General Peal) could best answer the with a new staff of officers, was a matter which would question, (Hear, bear.) quire very serous consideration • He •didnot know v i h e l EXCHEQUER BONDS (2,000,00010 BILL. The CHAN CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved titer the new board was propose d to b e separate from th e • national board, it would involve a serious expense, which the second reading of this bill. •proposed to throw on the consoli d atedr fund of t hi s Si r G . it was C. LEWIS said—Sir, in rising t o offer a had time to make himself ac- remarks • country. He bad not as yet on th i s bill, lam d • estrous at the outset to ad quairited with the contents of these bulky volumes which vest to a report which h as been industriously circulated, ing this defect, and he could only express a hope 6 - at uo do narrow an adherence to the oH forms of the establishment would be allowed to prevent them from dealing with these endowments in such a manner as would best promote and extend middle class education in Ireland. The Bishop of CASHEL concurred in the testimony to the character and labour of the commissioners ; but with regard to the report of the three, one of the other two dissented from it as vicious in principle and bad in law, the other, Mr. Hughes, declared the system to be wrong in principle and impossible in practice ; separate education he pronounced to be right in principle, and the only one practicable in Ireland. No Government, no people, would act on a report which was so denounced by two of the commissioners. The report divided the schoole into two classes, exclusive and non-exclusive, and proposed to transfer all non-exclusive to the new board. By exclusive schools they meant those into which children of only one persuasion had a right to admission ; but there were a number of schools founded by Protestants to encourage the teaching of the estab lished religion. Into these schools Catholic children were admitted, that they might be turned from what the founders considered error ; but by the thfiuition of the report these would be held non-exclusive schools. They would, under the board, be devoted to mixed educa tion, and the intentions of the founders would be frus trated. He admitted that there was great need of doing something ; but he conceived the great want was that of a good inspection. There was now a number of schools subject to no inspection, and there ought to be a staff of properly trained inspectors. The Earl ST. GERMA INS had no wish to prolong -,he discussion. He thought his noble friend (the Earl of Cork) and the house ought to be satisfied with the assurance given by the noble earl (the Earl of Darby) that the subject should receive the consideration of the Government. He feared that an impression had been made on their lordships that the education in all these schools was defective ; such was not the case—he could speak from personal knowledge of the Royal School of Armagh, which he had visited and which was not infe rior to any school in the conetry. He believed several others were equally efficient. The Earl of BELMOR E said that the schools of En oiskillen, Dungannon, and Armagh were in the most satisfactory condition. A number of others, however, were in a very inferior state, and the commissioners pro posed to improve them at the expense of the others. The subject then dropped. CHRISTIANITY IN INDIA. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY rose, pursuant to no tice, to present a petition from various religious denomi nations respecting the promotion of Christianity in India. He said the object of the petitioners was to clear them selves of imputations which had been lately made against them. They had been charged with bigotry, with vio lence, with a wish to make proselytes by force, and with a desire to obtain the aid of Government in their objects. They denied all these charges, and wished that this pe tition should be regarded as a sort of confession of Lath. They wished to place it on record as an exhibit Lin of their principles and objects, so that hereafter. when any such charges might be ma le against them, they could refer to this petition for their justification. The Earl Of ELLENBORdUGH would not say more with regard to the petition than that so long as he had. anything to do with the government of India he should adhere most strictly tl the ancient traditional policy of the British Government in India—that was absolute neutrality in matters of religion. He intended, so far as in him lay, that this neutrality should be real, that it should exist not only in the language of the Govern • meet, but in its acts and the acts of its officers. He had heard with satisfaction from his noble friend that the petXoners did not desire the aid of Government; he felt satisfied that nothing could be co injurious to their object as even the appearance of such aid they should stand by themselves; by individual exertions by private missionaries, they might have some success ; but be felt convinced that if it was for a moment step. posed that Government extended any aid to them (he feared there was a belief that such was to some exten t the case), the result would be the greatest danger to English interests in India, and the utter destruction of all the hopes of the missionaries of religion. The petition was ordered to lie on the table. TRANSFER OF LAND BILL. The report of amendments to this bill was received. EXCHEQUER BILLS (20,911,500/) BILL. This bill was read a third time and paseed. Their lordships adjourned at five minutes to seven. and which a short time ago was mentioned on a public occasion, to the effect that the late Government and my self in particular as having charge of the financial de partment, had left the national finances in a state of disorder and uncertainty, and bad bequeathed an in heritance of financial difficulty to our successors. lam bound to say that the right hon. gentleman opposite when making his financial statement gave no sanction to that report, and the numerical statement which he sub mitted to the house with respect to last year's finance vas quite accurate—so that as regards him I have no complaint to make. But, sir, lam deisirous to remove from the mind of any gentleman who may have received such impressions, any erroneous ideas that nay exist on the subject, and therefore I shall, with the permission of the house, call attention very briefly to what was the state of the national finances at the period when we were quitting office. It may be said that the aim of a chancellor of the exehequer, like that of the English lord mayor or the Roman Consul, is generally to get over difficulties by temporary expedients, and leave the permanent solution of them to their successors ; but it was impossible for me to know last year that the House of Commons would, by a vote of censure on the late Government, cause my retirement from office a few weeks previous to the time for making my annual financial statement. The state of things that existed I hoped to deal with myself, and therefore I cannot see what foundation there was for attributing to me the design of handing over an inheritance of difficulties to my successor. (Hear.) But I say further that I did not leave any difficulty that did not arise out of the state of the law, and that the finances for the year were in as satisfactory a state as could have been expected from the statement I had sub mitted. (Hear.) I estimated the expenditure for last year at €5,474,0001., and the actual expenditure was 70,378,0001., showing an excess of 4,904,0001. The excess of revenue over my estimate was 1,416,0001. and during the year the amount of debt paid off was 3,741,0001. Therefore, with the excess over the esti mate, and withlthe excess of expenditure over the esti mate, and without the large sum paid for the remission cf debt, there was only an excess in the expendi ture of the year of 2,000,0001., which two milieus were taken by me out of the balances in the exchequer. But I think I shall be able to satisfy the house that the state of the balances in the exchequer was satisfactory, and that the sums found there by the present government were ample for the purposes of the ensuing year. In April, 1855, the balance in the exchequer was 3,949,0001. but then in that sum was included a million of ways and means bills in anticipation of the revenue of the succeed ing quarter, which were defrayed out of that quarter, so that the actual balance in 1855 was 2,949.0001. In 1856 the balaace was 5,600,0001. ; in 1857, 8,668,0001., and on the Ist April last, 6,667,0001., which the house must see was a suffic ent sum for the year. (Hear, hear.) Tee information I received on leaving office was that no de. ficiency bills bearing interest would be required for the April dividend, and I now learn that none have been found necessary. Well, sir, if the exeeuditure of the past year, including the payment of debts, was defrayed by the revenue, and if a sufficient sum was left in bal ances at the end of the financial year, the house must, I think, come to the conclusion that, so far as the finances were concerned, the late Government left nothing in an unsatisfactory condition. (Hear, hear.) I now pass on to the plan of the present Government, and with regard to that plan I would say that it appears to me, that so far from the right hon, gentleman opposite being obnoxi ous to the charge brought against him on a former oc casion of being too adventurous, of departing too far from the received and established maxims, he has on the present occasion shown himself almost too prudent, teo cautious, I might almost say timorous. Serpit huini tutus nimium timidusquo procelke. He has made an arrangement with the view of avoiding a present difficulty, which I fear may with good reason be anticipated to create greater difficulty hereafter. In the first p'ace, he has stated to us that he is able to pre sent a picture of reduced expenditure for the present year. I will admit that his budget exhibits in one serve a diminished expenditure, inasmuch as he has been able —and I rejoice at it—to somewhat diminish the army and navy estimates of his predecessor. I give the government a'l possible credit for that reduction, and no one rejoices more at the reduction than I do myself. But when the government talks of a reduced expenditure as compared with that of the preceding year, let us see how that stand. The consolidated fund charge for last year was 1,777 , 0001. In consequence of the probable expense of compensating the proctors —an expense, let me be allowed to say, which was pressed on the late government by the House of Commons, which was an expense which solely emanated from the feeling of the house—in consequence of that item the charge this yesr will be 1,900,0001. Tne estimates last year, except the supplementary vote for the militia, were : Army, 11,893,0001; this year they are 11,750,0001. Navy last year 9,172,000/. ; this year 9,860,000/. Civil estimates last year, 7,895,0001. ; and this year the right honourable gentleman sots them down at 7,000,0001. So that the total estimates last year were 30,230,0001. ; and this year they are 30,610,0001. ; showing an increase in the present year cf 280,000/. That increase must be reduced if you add the supple mentary vote for the militia—whether it will be required or not this year. I cannot tell—hut leaving out that, there is an increase this year of 230,0001. This cutups risen, which is taken from the right hon. gentleman's own figures, shows that he is not jutified in saying that there wi:l be any reduction in the expenditure of the present year, and we do not know yet whether a time may not arrive f increasing the present estimates. While such are the prospects wide respect to expendi ture, let us see what we are to expect in the way of taxa tion. The right hon. gentleman's plan is shortly this : he takes off t millions of taxation, or rather allows it to expire, and substitutes for it a somewhat precarious 800,0001. I call it precarious, because the 500,0001. which he expects from Irish spiri , s is doubtful, and I doubt very much whether the stamp on cheques will make up the 800 0001. (Hear, lisar.) It is true that we shall lose only one of these two millions during the present year; but nerertheless the ultimate loss will be two, for which be only provides as a suiestitute a precarious 800,0001. Then he prispo es to meet the Exchequer Bonds, which were to be paid off this year, by creating a new loan, and to postpone the war sinking fund of one and a half F ar the Exchequer bonds be proposes to issue two millions at 3l per cent., payable at any time not exceeding six years ; so that the right bon. gentleman will have the power of spreading his payments over that period. He has not stated the mode in which he pro poses to proceed with this new loan, but I understand he has made an arrangement with the Bink of England for the gross sum. Whether that is the most convenient course, or whether the present holders were not entitled to some consideration and an offer to renew their bonds on certain terms, is a point which, no doubt, the right hon. gentleman has considered, and until we hear his reasons for the course he has t tken, I shall not press him further on that point. But it is to be b erne in mind that the problem which the right hon. gentleman professes to have solved will recur next year. There will be two millions falling due then, and one million the year fol lowing, and therefore, unless be meats to enter into a steady course of borrowing for these bonds, I do not see how his present budget can be defended, especially as the lass will esso hfte two hein the com next. T etax, whichhe n is only point nlyone million this year, divi sion of the sinking fund. I proposed that division deli berately and from a conviction the,: it was the only safe mode of arrangement. The Exchequer bonds stood on a totally different footing. They were in the nature of a permanent debt with a certain period appointed for their payment, and when the money is due the parties have to be paid unless they wish to renew. The nature of a sinking fund is wholly different : that is a compel wary arrangement, made beforehand, by which the public faith shall be kept by the redemption of a certain amount of the debt annually. Toe right hon. gentle man, however, can perhaps convince himself that by some self-acting process—by some system of compound interest, the enormous debt incurred during the French war may be liquidated. I dare say hon. gentle men have read the plan proposed by Mr. Pitt for re ducing the national debt by a sinking fund, and I need not remind the house how illusory that plan proved to be—how every trace of it was swept away from our legis lation, and how all that remains of it is an obligation that when any surplus exists, it shall be applied towards the reduction of the national debt. (Hear.) If the finan cial position of the nation resembled that cf a private in dividual—that was, if the expenditure bad to be regulated by the income—a sinking fund, such as is provided by the Act of Parliament, would be a reasonable means cf extinguishing a debt. But that is not the case, Toe system that must necess3rly be pur-ued by the nation in dealing with its finances i fir t, to take the exoeudi tura, and then adapt the income to it. The consequence is that there is not likely at any time to be any consider. able surplus applicable to that purpose, and unless the house is prepared to make it obligatory upon the G - verensent—unless the ways and means bra specially prc vided year by year to farm the sinking fund, we must make up our minds quietly to submit to the perpetuity o our present debt, and satisfy our consciences with aunt ally paying the interest without reducing the prineipa'. (Hear.) I need not remind the light hon. gentleman that in a year when two millions of Ex3sequer b4nds fall due, there would be very great d , fficulty in discharging a million and a-half of your sinking fund. (Hear.) But when the Act of Parliament was pa*sed that difficulty was not foreseen, and I think under the circumstances the right hon. gentleman's proposal for postponing the sinking fund is,reasonable. But what I object to in the present scheme is that he makes no attempt to pay off the two millions of Exchequer bonds, either wholly or in part, and that he postpones the war sinking fund just as if no obligation existed to pay it. It has been often said that the national debt of this country is of so gigs: - tic a nature that it is in vain to make any attempt to pay it off, and that as the aggregate sum so far tram.- cende the powers of any generation to deal with it, we must be ceeteet to submit to what has become an inevit able destiny. ([Tear) Let it then be borne in mind, that the capital of the debt is but a nominal liability, which the Government of the country will never be called upon to discharge—it.stands in the shape of a certain amount payable as perpetual annu:ties. But I would call attention to the fact, that if money is bor rowed at 5 per cent., a sum equal to the whole capita: is paid off in the shape of interest in the course of 20 years. Where it borrowed at a lower rate—(is is th e case of the national debt of ibis country)— of course it takes a longer time to pay off in interest a sum equdl to the total capital. Sti:l within a limited period this must be the resu't, and supposing a debt stands at three and one-third per cent., which is the average rate for the na tional debt, you pay every thirty years in interest anum equal to the whole amount. I think, however large the sum may be, it is not so great tt at some efforts might be made. (Hear, hear.) I now come to the view token by • the right hon. gentleman as to the national elongation t reduce and finally to extinguish the income-tax. I. con• fess I have great difficulty in understanding the theory, fop which the right bon. gentleman contends as t o na tional engagements of this nature, If I understand hira ESDAY EVENING, MAY 4, 1858. correctly he holds that an act of parliament that calls tions and proposals are none of them dictated by personal upon us to pay so 2,000,0001. o f En c h equer bonds is i motives,, brie entirely from a sense of what is required not a binding engagement—that attach of parliament that ' for the public interest. Similar .plans are brought far. requires to pay out a million and a half as a sinking fond ward as respects the navy. Then we have suggestions is not a binding engagement - but that it is competent for promoting :education, for encouraging science and for parliament to take is band the revision of both those_ art, for improvements in our public edifices, for making engagements. When, LoWever, he comes to the rem's-- electric telegraphs by l an d an d b y sea—in short, time sion of taxation, th en he says the act of parliament is a would not suffice for me to enumerate the different pro national engagement which we are bound to respect. I jects which are urged upon the Government from time would ask the house, in considering this question of na- time to time, and which in some instances they are coin tional engagements, to recollect the necessity of balanc- pelted to adopt, and which necessarily add materially ing the income from year to year with the expenditure, to the aggregate of the public expenditure. If this and that in a country whose taxes can be so little be pre- system is to go on, and the Government are to be determined, every year that question of balancing the charged with 'backwardness, and with being influenced expenditure with the income must be solved. Now, what by a niggardly spirit if they 'vesture to interpose an I want to know is, are we tolayrit down that all engage- obstacle on the ground of expense, and the house, as orients of thi, sort for the remission of taxation are to be bas been stated on some occasions, decline to support beldsacred, whileengagementsfor thepayment ofdebt are the Government in resisting such demands—then it to be looked upon as absolutely worthless T I quite agree will ba impossible to make those reductions in taxation that engagements made by act of parliament to discharge which the right hon. gentleman opposite speaks of as rational debt are always subject to certain conditions, necessary, (Hean) The same rule applies in regard to I admit that Parliament never can tie up the hands of those rues of Colonial and Indian policy which are ad its successors, and that it is always open to the house to vocated by many gentlemen in and out of this house. If reconsider engagements of this kind that it may have . we are to extend cur armies in those dependencies—if entered into. lam not the advocate of irrevocable and we are to go on enlargieg our empire, and wherever unchangeable laws—that is a fallacy which has long there are a few British merchants we are to send ships to since exploded—but if this doctrine of holding to na- protect them—in the event of any dispute between them tional engagements where it is for our immediate eon- and the natives—and if we are to maintain nearer home venience we should do so, and treating them as valueless that spirit of foreign policy which the house has recently when to fulfil the obligation would tend to our present shown so strong an inclination to support—(oh, oh, and inconvenience—if this be the principle on which we are hear, bear)—if we are to be perpetually menacing our to act it ought to be dedared. (Hear.) The right hon, neighbours, and if at the extremity of the world we are gentleman, in applying this doctrine to the finances of always to be prepared with fleets and armies to afford the present year, sap we are under a sacred engage- protection to British interests, it will be in vain for Go ment to reduce the income tax, and by allowing the law vernment to attempt to reduce expenditure to that point to take its course to dininish that impost from 7d. to sd. which will admit of the abandonment of an im in the pound. lot when we are thus called upon to give portant source of revenue. (Hear, hear.) . I did not effect to a solemn national engagement, perhaps we may intend to trouble the house at such length, but before I take a more commonplme—a less dissolving view of the sit down I would again urge the house to caveat itself amount of benefit that will be derived by the taxpayer with a settlement of the financial affairs of the present from this relief. Now et me ask, what is the extent of year. Hon. members can scarcely forget the experience relief which that change will afford ! During the war of the previous 'year, when, after the estimates were the income tax was 16,.. in the pound—equal to 6/. 13s. prepared, the Indian revolt broke out with such intensity 43. per cent. On the return of peace the late Govern- as threatened to reverse all our calculations. (Hear, ment, not acting in obedience merely to popular de- bear.) I believe that the assurances which, at the close mends, but in accordance with what they thought the of the session, were given by my right hon. friend (Mr. interests of the countre, proposed to take off the war 93. V. Smith) with regard to the pressure upon our finances which was equal to 31.155. per cent. Everybody will caused by those Indian disturbances, have been realised see that that was a eunstantial relief, and it was felt as (hear, hear)—but we gave thoswassuranees with great such by every class of hcomes, upon whom the high rate reserve and great mistrust in our own judgment, and of the war income tax tressed with great severity. The without any certainty that they would be justified by result was the income tax of last year was 7d. in the the result. Had events taken another turn it might pound, or 2/. 18e. 41. per cent., which for an income tax have been our duty to have called Parliament together cannot be considered oppressive or severe. Well, the in the course of the autumn or early in the winter, to right hon. gentleman takes off 23. in the year—one roil- have laid before them the increased estimatese and asked lion of which only comes into effect this year—be talt.a their assfsta.n.o i. making 1,.. ........,...._„,,;],,,,„ eeeenee _ off 163. 81. per ce n t., and so reduces the 21. 18s. 4d. to tions than those we have been compelled to resort to. 21. ls. id. per cent., the whole amoun t c f re li e f afforded With our enormous empire, and the extent to which the this year being, however, only the 41. per cent. I say energy and enterprise of Engliehmen is carried, and the that that is an amount of relief that will scarcely be felt extent to which that enterprise is protected and en by those who pay the income tax.. A reduction of couraged, it is quite impossible at the beginning of any 163.83. per cent. is not an amount that would be seuibly year to say with confidence what will be the limit of the felt by persons el large means, who do not gene- expenditure even of that year, much less what may be rely calculate their incomes with such strict accuracy as the state of things two or three years hence. There for so small a chauge to make any difference to them, and f•re I trust the house will not enter into any prospeo on the other hand the persons with -limited incomes— tive engagements with respect to the taxation of future those with 2001. or 300/, a year—the 16s. 83. per cent. years. (Hear, hear.) :I do not ask them to keep up a per annum is so small a sum that it cannot be said to particular tax, but merely to abstain from entering into afford to them any substantial relief. (Oh, oh, and -any rash obligation, and to leave themselves, when the laughter.) Therefore I say that the ,night hon. gentle- proper time arrives, free to exercise their discretion in man, in his arrangement, by not payitig the Exchequer dealing with the question according to the circumstances bonds either wholly or in part, but applying the money as they then exist. (Cheers.) to the reduction of the income tax, has violated an im portant principle of fi nance w i thout g i v i ng any substan- tial relief to the t axpayer. (hear.) There is another for the conven i ence of the house if there had been some notice of the di scuss i on of this question. He entirely important question involv e d i n the right hon. gen tl eman ' s plan. He denounCes the income tax as unjust, and re- concurred in the endeavours of his right hon, friend to garde it as a notional obligation that that tax should draw attention to certain serious consequences of the expire in 1860. But we know nothing of what may be practice n ow un f ortunately on the increase, of view the state of o ur fi nances in 1860 ; we do not know whe ther our exp en di ture w i ll admit of our dispensing with lug the house, not as a cur b upon expen di ture, b ut o 5,000,000/, o f taxes, which is the amount at which then the cont rary, o f b r i nging its influence to bear as a . income tax will stand. Is it probable that there will be stimulus to increased expenditure. But when censure a surplus revenue of 5,000,0001. to .enable you to dis- was thrown on the house, he must say, as one of those people with t h at enoug hat act ? (H to ear suppose that we may- in a for an in crease of expenditure, that Governments were position i n th e year 1860 to d not without blame in the matter, as they sometimes problem. I hope it may so prove ; but it may turn out offered to the attacks of this house a feeble resistance that there is no surplus, and then if it is to be under- which scarcely carried with it the air of seriousness, and stood that we are bound to abandon this 5,000,0001., the they had thus pernaitied the house th produce of the i ncome t ax , t h e ques ti on w ill arise what of the executive. The right bon. to gentleman e functions ni ticed a other source of t axa ti on y ou can resor t t o o bt a i n an equa l rumour that the state of the finances was not satisfac sum ? The income tax falls for the most part on the tory. As to last year, he (Mr. Gladstone) hat hoped wealthier portion of the community. (Hear, hear, and that they had had enough of the subject; but while he Oh.) It is easy to get up here in an assembly of gen- did not think it was convenient to discuss any matter in tlemen and denounce the income tax in the strong terms that house on the grounds of rumour—(hear)—h e must which the right hon. gentleman thought fit to employ, point out that the state of the finances was not a matter That is a very easy m o d e o f ge tting up a cheer; but of rumour, but a matter of figures, and he for one ad before that tax can be abolished,abolihe ,and before you can hered to the opinion that it was anything but satisfac substitute for it 5,000, t a xes levied upon tan hered (Rear.) In speaking of the reduction of the debt, general consumption of th e coun t r y— an d therefore the right hon. gentleman had included the 1,100.000/. taxes affecting all daises of t h e commun ity-ea will be- fer the redemption of the Sound Dues, It was a mis name necessary for you to address assembles of a take to call that a re d uc i on o f d ebt. It was a payment different cha rac t er — assem b l i es of persons who will no of a charge arising in the course of the year, and th e doubt meet together, 'and which wiil oontain amongst a money was borrowed from the expenses of the war. To large number who do not pay the income taxa very few call that a reduction of debt was to use a form of lan who do pay it—as this house contains very few.persens guage calculated to mislead. These were matters of fact who are exempt amongst a large number who are liable. which there was no occasion to enhance or exaggerate, and which it could be no great advantage to discuss. That is a consideration I would press upon the notice of the house, before they take a step which may have the When his right hon. friend said, "Don't let us make .effect in a future year of fettering their deliberations, these engagement binding and unconditional," he (Mr. and prevent their taking that course which they may Gladstone) could not help feeling how strongly the then jtolge to be most conducive to the interests of the warning applied to the right hon. gentleman's own en country. I would call attention for a moment to a brief gagement to pay off under the name of Sinking Fund comparison founded upon the right hon. gentleman's one million and a half per annum. It was true that Mr. own figures for the present year of the direct and tee in- Pitt's proposal, which it was said by his friends would direct taxa ion of the o luntry—with a view of seeing be his beat title to the approbation of posterity, had been waethet it is realty advisable that we should pledge our- abandoned, but there was much more to be said for that selves to the abolition of the income t ax . A ocor di og to project as invented by Mr. Pitt, than as now revived. th e r i g ht b on , gentleman's statement, the produce of the If the theory was one which would not bear the teat of customs and excise, which form the great bulk of our practice, at least Mr. Pitt had never seen it fai'. But indirect taxation,. will be 41,500.000/. This is the wh tt was to be said of those who having seen it fail, and amount of our indirect taxation. Lit us now look to having heard every eminent man give testimony against the direct taxation, and see how very small is its com parative amount, it, bad three year s ago const i tuted it afresh ? (Hear.) mount, and that alt er a ll t h at h as b een said How had it op era t e d 1' Why, this y ear th e want about raising a l arge , part of our revenues by direct amounted to 250,000/., and the Minister of the Crown taxation from the more opulent classes. The customs told them it was impossible to fulfil the engaeeneent. and excise produce 41,500,000/. ; the land tax, The right hon. gentleman did not appear to have suffi -1,200 ; the assessed taxes, 2,000,000/. ; the in- cient confidence in his' own plan to go to a division. come tax at the reduced rate, 5 ,000,000/. ; making to- (Hear, and a laugh.) He was sorry to hear the right hon gather 8,200,000/. S.rictly speaking that is the total gentleman say that the only means of reducing the debt of our direct taxation, and if you take from that the was by the meats he suggested; for there was no doubt whole of the income tax, all that will remain is that the debt had been reduced very considerably 3,200,0001. There There is another class of ta xes whi c h I class ing the last 30 years. Did lie think that the system with direct taxation, though they differ in some respects w hi c h be designated as alone Practicable would pay off from the preceding. Thema are stamps, probate duty, half as much in a similar period i He hoped the matter and succession duty, amounting to 7,550,000/. Then would ba brought 'to a fair issue. (Hear, 'hear.) The tbere is the revenue from postage, which in some house ought to have an Opinion one way or other. If the respects partakes of th e character of a direct tax, though pre sent system was to last, let them declare it by taking it is in fact payme n t o f s ervice rendere.d—that is calcu- some positive step. If they considered that it was bad, lated by the right hon. g e ntleman at. ,200,000/ , making' let them bane done with it altogether. If 1,500,0001. a together 10,750,0001. But, adding this total to the ye a r was to be paid in this manner, of course the fund other, they d o no t equa l one-half the amount of the in- holder had a great interest to keep up that system. The direct taxes, (Hear,.) Well, sir, under Vaese circum- objections originally raised when this arrangement was stance, I confess it see ps to me that the house ought proposed gained fresh strength so long as it wa , cor net to com e t o a di st i n ct pledge with regard to the tinued, but not allowed to become efficacious. (Hear.) period at whi c h e ith er the income tax, cr any other tax, They were bound to pay off 1,500,0001. Was there any shall cease. Id o not wish to beunelerstoedal expressin g poss ibl e condition of affairs in which th e i ncome b e i ng any opini on agai ns t th e cessation of the inco me viz at sufficient all but that amount, the Chancellor of the Ex any time wh en th e i n t er e s t of the country shall permit chequer would come down to the house and ask for an its abolitio n . l am no advocate for the income tax All increase of 1,500,000/. to pay off the debt I Would any I desire is that when the time arrives for discussing that conceivable Chancellor of the Exchequer do so ? (A subject we sh a ll be free t o deal with it, and not find our- laugh.) Would the right bon, gentleman do so himself if selves tied up by a d ec laration of the right hon. gentle- he were Cbanceller of the Exchequer when that state of man's by which the hots° is to be held bound. (Hear.) things should arise I (Hear, and lauelater.) He had not I for one refuse to allow my judgment t o be interfered done justice to the ordinary sinking fund, as in most with and fettered by the declaration of the right hon. there was, under fair circumstances, a surplus, the gentleman, and wish to hold myself perfee ly free in In- yearsapplication of which tended much to reduce the debt. g ore years to exercise nty own judgment upon questions I t appeare d to him that the Chancellor of the Exchequer tying;affectin the revenue and expenditure of tbacountry at was under no engagement as to the Exchequer Bonds ; he and I hope the house will join with me in re- except to reimburse the holders there was no obligation futing to be bound by any test of that sort which may be to pay it this year. He proceeded t o rev i ew the caicum thought to ha ve b een imposed upon them. (near, hear.) stances under welch they were made redeemable in 1858. The question of the probable remission of the income They were put out as redeemable in this year as the most. tax must depend upo n the view which the house might convenient mode for tbe ehigennes of the time, but that take of what should be the amount of the public expen- was not intended as a promise that they should be paid i ditare. It is for the house to regulate that expenditure, this year. As respected tbeincome tax the right hon. gen and I must here remark that whatever proposition the tleman had, over-stated the doctrine of covenant or coin government may bring forward at the commencement of l e a d as alleged by those who were in favour of the reduc the session fit the different public establishments, when n on . No person thought that the house was absolutely the estimates have been once adopted by the house they pledged to the extinction of the income tax in 1860. cease to be the estimates of the government, bat become The doctrine of his right hon. friend was not that the the votes of th e h ouse, an d it is in vain for ho n , gentle- income tax was a great instrument of taxation, which man to get up and attempt to separate their responsi• m i g ht be properly continued for great objects of public bility from the responsibility of ministers. his the House policy, but that it was a convenient part of the ordinary of Commons that passes the votes, and nothing can be financial system of the .country—(hear, hear)—but that more urjust to the right hon. gentlemen oppoeite (the wa s not the ground on which they obtained the income government) than to hold them responsible for the ex- tax from the peoele in 1842, when it wa.s enacted ; in penditure involved in the estimates atter they have been 1845, when it was re-enacted ; and in 1853, when it was voted by the house. It is with the house that the re- extended to Ireland, and carried down to a lower Oah e sponsibility ultimately note, and whether before in- (Hear, hear.) _ A directly opposite language was held, quiry or after inquiry they sanetisn the expenditure it and Parliament and the country were told that they 'a h. t competent fur them afterwards to blame the go- were asked to pay an income tax because it was a coil vernmeue. (Rear, hear.) Well, sir, baying had tbe ex• venient portion of the ordinary resources of the country, perience during the last few years which is gained by but because certain great ends of policy were to be at sitting on the opposne bench, and having the respon- tained by it. (Hear.) First, an active reconstruction sibi ity of balancing the revenue and expenditure of of our commercial and financial system; and, secondly, the country, I feel bound to say that I have witnessed the maintenance of the honour and interests of the coun with some surprise that in the present slate of t r y in an European war. (Hear.) Both objects had peitiee— in the absence of any strong feeling, a anyan been attained, and if they were going to change the in great public demand out of doors—' n the absence of Y come tax from a special tax to an ordinary tax, to be compact party organisation in Parliament, it is the Go- applied to the common expenditure of the country, it vernrnent that has become thegreatadvocate o f economy, ought not to be done in the dark, It ought to be well and the different sections of the house that have taken understood. And before making it such, the country upon theme , lves t) be the advocates of increased exPeil - ought to have an opportunity of giving its verdict whe diture. lam bound to say that the great pressure now ther or not it would gay taxation on that footing or not. brought to bear on the Government is not, as formerly, (Hear, bear.) The income tax was first put on twelve or for the diminution of expenditure, but comes from sail- thirteen years since, and hail been kept up, to a certain one quarters, and is in its nature personal and sectional, extent, for the b ene fi i i a l rem i ssion of taxation ; but that and is direct e d to an increase of ex p Govern)enditure. Rear. was not the case now, and he a sk e d th em what had been It is a pressur e w hi ch it is verthe history of ti n e paper duties, the wine duties, and y difficult for any meat to resi s t marine insurance chines of late y ears. (H ear.) The pro ; and the hou se will never become ful'y conscious of it s responsibility in this respect unt it the cess of remissio n o f taxat i on had been completely ar problem is sol ved of equalising revenue and-expenditure, rested, and with ou t say i ng one word about its resurnp- What the house is too much pledged to in the present tion they talked of the continuance of the income tax, circumstances of the country is the increase of expendi- because it was a convenient mode of taxation. (Rear.) tare, and at the same time the reduction of taxation. Not only had the changes for which the tax was imposed (Hear.) Teat is a process which of course cannot ge on been stopped, tra. for benefitting the consumer andthe very long, unl se you have recourse to the ruinous sys- general body of the people, but they had begun to travel tern of peace lean?. I admit the right hon, gentleman the in an oppo.ito direction•-(bear)—by the reimposition of a Coanceiler of the Exchequer has not hinted-at any such duty on sugar of 10s. per cwt. and of ls. per pound on tea. course ; but toleea the house is prepared to have recourse His right hon. f r i en d the member fir Radnor had to a system of peace loans, increased expenditure and reduced taxati on cannot go on very long together. When taeoured the ho use w i t h an immense number of figares to show that a great extent el indirect taxation bad been I urge that th e pressure in the house was in the direction remitt-d, but he Lad omitted to eta e that two millions of increased expenditure, I only do justice to those gen- were last year added to the permanent taxation, (Hear.) tlemen who are the authors cf that pressure when I eay, ; It was right, he, thought, the house and the country that 'it is very rarely that it is made without a view to should have a clear utetersland in; upon the subject, and ects of a public and useful nature. The desire fee the if the - latter were of opinion that the income tan should improvement of each branch of the public service which be permanent, by all means let it be .; and he was those connect e d w i t h i t entertain, and the d es i re f or the bound to say that he dil not think the paid house had shown attaioraen tof some particular object of a public character that degree of personal selfishness as a body to the in• which each person has in view, naturally induces him to come tax, ought to expose it to censure from the course seek the largest grantsfor that puapnse. How fee clue nty it might pursue in reference to it. There were many ob do we bear in this house suggestions for improving the jectfons, however, to the income tax being made a per condition of the solder—the improvement of barrack ac- tnanent tax. One of them was a moral objectien—(eear) commodation—and what numerous Power° brought for :---and he Expressed his belief that it did more to corrupt' ward for the benefit of the army and the extension of our military force, all of them involving a large increase to and demoralise, not from the accident of its levy, e r the fault of th ose who levied it, bat from the essent i a l na t ure the public exp en dit ure. lam aware that those suggth- of the tax itself—(hear)—and the other objection was, that so long as it was a permanent tax so long it would mnd sea vvhicb are easily reached for a few pounds, and be vain to talk of economy and effective reduction in o which your population as been draughted off year expenditure, from its being so productive a source, and Stet- year. Every, man who goes to those colonies re an engine so convenient and easy te levy. (Rear, hear.) , radiates your policy, repudiates you r debt, and thanks It was, ther e f ore, i n consequence of his b-lief that our Maven that et last he has found a country where in scale of expenditure admitted of considerable reduction tretry can have its reward, and where men calling them that he we e of opi n i on t h e tax should come to a speedy elves statesm en are not using e ver y engine of Govern termination. (Hear, hear.) He thought the house were sent to deprive him of the produce of his industry and justified in entertaining the Expectation that the right ;o diminish the comforts and independence of his family horiouraele baronet the member for Radnor would have Ind you, landed proprietors of England, remember that told the house in the course of his remarks what be however many of your countrymen may emigrate, your would have done if he bat been the Chancellor acres remain, and you will have by-and-by a different of the Exchequer. (Hear, and laughter.) He, however, tone in this house after another reform in Parliament. went very near it, but he did not quite come up to the Your succession duties will be overhauled, and will not work — (laughter) —but be (Mr. Gladstone)thought some- be got rid of so easily as at present. (A lauMa.) Your thing material was to be extracted fro m what h e did _ property-tax which you are assisting the Chancellor of say, viz., that the reduction last year of the war income fw:Exchequer to throw over will come back to you, and tax was the deliberate act of the late Government, and Come back in an increased proportion. Rely upon it, was not surrendered under paltry pressure. (Hear.) He the course which we have pursued forione° years has was extremely glad to hear the , datement repeated, be- been foolish and wicked. By casting unfair burdens cause it was one that had been impugned in various upon the people you will create a spirit of diicontent and quarters by one hon. gentleman, a memner of the late disaffection, and when they have the power, as they Government, in his address to his constituents is the shortly will have, to lay taxes upon those who have spent autumn, who, when challenged by hie constituents whit 1 the money, you may depend upon it the poor will not the army and tee establishments of the country were thi I always go to the wall and the rich will not always escape. in a better state when the mutiny broke out, answerel 1 (OM oh.) Those are unpalatable truths. (A. leugb.) I "How could we have them in a better state, when toe 1 rionn like the income-tax any more than you do, but I House of Commons, Mr. Disraeli, and others, would not I know it is the duty of Parliament either to diminish allow us to keep up the war income tax, (Hear, and our expenditure or to maintain the income-tax or some laughter.) His right hon. friend had now xtee an putl other t ax o f th a t ki n d, an d t h at as we acted in a foolish e . - guisher on all those rumours, and it could now be no I spirit i n involving ourselves in this expenditure, so we longer said that the extinction of the war income tax was are now acting a cowardly and immoral part in casting a proceeding extortee from the late Government by the off the burden of expense from our shoulders partly upon Parliament. But what would the right hon. gentleman the great body of consumers now living, but mostly have done if he had now been in office? It appears to upon our posterity coming after us. (Hear.) me if he bad raised the income tax is. 9d., he would The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER —The not have reduced the Exchequer bends, but have kept mem h gentleman the member for Radnor has ac up the sinking fund ; but if the income tax had been 5 " °°' raised by him to 10J. in the pound, he (Mr. Giad- cused me ofintroducing a cowardly budget. After listening stone) doubted if there would have been a surpl us , to the objections of the right hon. gentleman, I think I He, however, adhered to his opinion, that it was may venture to answer him in the words of the same the duty of a Minister and Parliament to have a poet whom he has quoted : clear turplue, and to keep in view that the only time to pay off a debt w as i n a time of peac e . H e did not think "Dug vitat h umurn rubes et mania captet." the Chancellor of the Exchequer was justly charge. The right hon. gentleman first found fault with the state. able for failing to liquidate the Exchequ er bonds, for client I made that there had been a redu .tion in the ex which he had not been supplied with a single farthing, peoditur e t o th e amount of 800,0001., and, by comparin and still less o ug ht t h e charge against hin t t o p rocee d the 'estimates of the pres en t year with those of the lastg pend for othe r p urposes t h e money applicable for their from those wh o h a d i n d uced the house to raise and ex_ estimates he prov e d, accord i ng to the manner in which he reduc ion. (Hear.) placed the question before the house, that the statement Mr: CARD WELL admitted that the Chancellor cf on my part was not authorized. But, sir, I never said the Exchequer was perfectly justified in postponing the that the saving was on the estimates of this year as corn war sinking fund. He t urteer admitted that Govern pared with tho se o f l ast year ; all I said was that by the ment were not bo un d to pay off the Exchequer bonds, but he deneme —mem-. tee cours e pre e ema —: , L .., 6 “... ems-elements we proposed there would b e a reduction to them was a prudent one. Their payment was p o et- in the expencuture to the extent of 800,000/ , and I posed till a time when we shall have lust the amount of think I can show to the house that that statem . ent was correct. In the estimates laid upon the table, the army the income tax. Would they then be able to inset it ? They were laying the foundation for future Chancellors of the Exch equer t o re i mpose the income tax, for if they and navy, we mad e a re d uction of 400,000/., and in the did not pay these bonds out of that tax , hey would have other estimates, the miscellaneous and civil service esti injurto pay it out of new taxes, checking the prosperity and mates which have been prepared show a like diminution ing the resources of the country. Mr. T. BARING d e fe n d e d th e muc h -abused sinking_ of 400 0001. as compared with last year, together ether makin g fund, 800,000/ I ment i oned, The right' ho g :). g en tl eman fund, which was t h e h ones t w i s h to pay debts and not 'has stat e d th e c i rcumstances under which I proposed not to saddle them on po s t er ity. The Chancellor of the Ex chequer had necessarily courted popularity by remitting to intelfere with the decline of the income-tax this year. taxes and leaving the debt t o t a k e care of itself. He has d ec l are d that our compact, as he calls it, with Thiess the diminution of the debt was made obligatory it would reference to the income-tax was not more strict than the depend upon the conduct of Government how we dealt engagement we had entered into with regard to the war with it in times of financial ease. As to the question sinking fund. Now, all these engagements are expressly between direct and indirect taxation, the wisest course Acts of Parliament ; technically speaking, the engage was to divide taxation between the two, so as to check :rents are the same ; but what I wish to bring before consumption and embarrass employment, the house with regard to the income-tax is that there mere w considerations of p o li cy connected with that tax upon the subject u n d er di scuss i on. I did not hear the Mr. BRIGHT—I w i s h to ma k e a few observations hich-it was impossible t o avo id taking into account. I may remind the house that there had been objections whole of this debate, but what I did he ar o f it i s o f th a t of a serious character urged against the income-tax in its I p eo r c e nt in ne t : fadotiridmo nn , o a ot n fe ci toh t e h es a u t b i j t ec w th. was impossible to avoid a grave confused character which one might have expected from from ththeev,e` ( Hear, hear.) Those ob the dilemma in which we are placed. (Hear.) One —not from the cir m cles side of the house casts the blame Of placing us in ourzethntlemedn tohfeEngllanldt" present position upon the other ; but the truth of the they came, on the contrary, from pelfeasislional opulent tram matter is, that we have been spending a great deal too traders, and from the humbler classes of society, who much, and the difficulty is how to raise money to meet complained, with reference to the incedence of the tar, the demands which have in consequence arisen. (Hear.) of its inju'tice, its inequality, and its i nquisitorial cha- There is a contest between the rice and the poor, and, ratter. (Cheers.) These are not objections, I repeat, as is generally the case in this country, the poor go to that have been urged by persons ef opulence and the wall. (Cries of "No, no.") I should be very glad wealth ; these are epithets that have not been used if I could agree with the gentlemen who cry "No ;" but except by persons of humble and difficult fertunee; and when you maintain a large and permanent tax upon the whole clamour raised against the income-tax has articles of import which are mixed up with the comfort never proceeded from the opulent and elevated classes of of every cottager's family in the kingdom, and you rc- the country. It was to meet those complaints that there duce a description of tax almost touching nobody who have been so many plans propounded with a view to has less than 1001. a year, I cannot help thinking that recognise some difference between the incomes brought people out of doors who read this debate welcome to the under the operation of the tax, and that a Committee of same conclusion as that at which I have arrived. The this house eat to consider the subject for a considerable fact is, we are endeavouring to do that which is impos- period of time . I rein the opinion that it was imos sible—trying t o render a very heavy taxation easily Bible to keep the inc ta p income-tax in it s present form as a borne. (Hear, bear.) Such a taxation never was and permanent feature of our financial system, and I think never will be easily endured. (Hear, hear.) You rim , t I did not misunderstand the feeling of the house and the shift it from one shoulder to another. The rich and the country when I recommended that course which I hope powerful will do all in their power to shift the burden Morn the house will ultimately sanction with respect to it. themselves, and it will rest, as in this country is the case, (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman the member for mainly upon the great masses of the population, whose Radnor (Sir G. C. Lewis) says, if the course which I incomes are small, but whose consumption of taxed ar- have indicated is pursued we shall an d with in 1860 tidies is in consequence of their numbers very consider- with a loss of 5,000,C001, of taxes; and with •no substi able. It has been said that much of the difficulty in which tute for it ; but in that argument the right hon. gentle we find ourselves in reference t, this question of taxation man took no account of the falling in of the annuities is to be attributed to our foreign policy. (Hear.) I concur which have been referred to in the course of this debate. in that opinion, We are pursuing a foreign policy which I think it is of the u most importance that the house every man among us condemns, in so far as it has been should have a clear opinion on this subject; and if they acted upon by a past generatton—(hear, hear)—and have a clear one that they should act with fire/mesa and which will receive at the hands of a future generation an consistency. There is no greater fallacy than that of equal share of condemnation. Alla, ion has been made to supposing that because you do not approve of the iecotire the combative spirit which hay been raised among the • tax yen are therefore opposed to all direct taxation. people of this country ; but whenever that spirit has been (hear, hear.) Approval of a fair amount of direct tax" raised there have always been statesmen ready to take ation is perfectly consistent with disapproval of the advantageof it for the warp..o of placing themselves upon manner in which direct taxation is at present raised. I that (the Treasury) bench, or, if already there, to male- believe it is of the utmost importance on social and Min their positi n upon it. W e have had t wo war s Since political considerations of the highest character that the the particular time to which the right hon, gentleman income-tax should not be retained as a permanent feature has referred, one of which was begun, was carried on, of our financial system. (Cheers.) But if in any year and was end e d w ith out, so far as I k now, one single word circumstances of great difficulty and emergency should of informati.m being given to this house—(hear, hear)— arise, no one for a moment would pretend that this tax and, mere, I believe that war was brought to an end a was not to be had recourse to as a source of supply. the time it was because the Minister stood in some (Hear.) I shall say nothing with regard to my proposi fear on account of a memorable debate and division eon with reference to the war sinking fund. I resisted which had taken place in this house in connection that war sinking fund with the two right hon. gentlemen with another war. That war the house condemned who have addressed the house to-night, and, as every —the Chinese war and the Minist e r thought one knows that under present circumstances the effort that perhaps be might be trespassing too much on the to retain it would have been perfectly idle, it is un patience and credulity of the country, and therefore he necessary for me to say a word on the eutject. huddled up one war at l eas t , t h at he m i ght have only Now, on tee point of the Exchequembonde, I ait the other to manage with t h e country and Parliament. there is great difference between our engage me nl n to But that Chinese war the House of Commons has con- redeem the Exchequer bonds and our engagements (Heardimmed, and that condemnation has never been reversed. with regard to the war sinking fund, and I did with , hear.) It stands upon our records now; artd the greatest regret propose to the house that some post although, from circumstances which few men will look ponetnent. of the settlement with respect to the Exche back to with satisfaction, a Parliament was returned quer bonds should take place. The house has come to apparently to reverse that sentence, yet no mare Minister a distinct conclusion on that subject. They have placed or member, has dared to ask that Parliament to reverse at my disposal the necessary sum of 2,000,000/. in order that sentence. (Oh, oh 0 Let the bon. gentlemen who. to redeem those bonds; and now, as the right hon. gen cry "Oh r' try to do it. (Hear.) We do not know now tleman says that the house has a right to know what we whether we are at war with China or not. I understand have done on the subject of those Exchequer-bonds, that a celebrated individual, a native of that country, has and has accused me of some want of courtesy in the been taken primmer and is now in India. Is he a pri- 'natter in not giving the holders of the bonds the alter soner of war, or has he been taken away merely as a uative of renewing them, I will tell the house what curiosity ?'(Laughter,) Ido not know what the Govern- I have thought it rudest to do. The house permitted meat of Lord Derby ai doing as to that question They me to raise a sum of 2,000,000/. by Exchequer bonds, at least are not respensibl e for entering upon that war payable at a period not later than six years from the date —(hear, hear)—but they will make themselves respon , of such bonds, and the interest not to exceed 3/. 10a. Bible if they delay one single hour to bring it to a con- per cent. I shall obtain an advance immediately of elusion. We are in that country, to my mind, as I 1,000,0001., payable in 1862, and at 31 per cent. That, solemnly believe, making the Eeglish name hateful, and under the circumstances of the case, is a very moderate making the spread of our civilisation and our religion and fair rate of interest, because, although it is possible utterly impossible in that portion of the earth. We to get money for a short period at 3 per cent., when you have no object, for every man admits we can't have ter- come to a period of six years the case is very different. i ritory. We gain nothing but trade. Trade surely will I have also made arrangements at the end of the year to be better carried on with a nation with whom we are at call for another 1,000,000/, at the same rate, but I have peace than with one with whom we hav e fraudulently a lively confidence that circumstances will not render it and upon false pretences plunged into war. There is necessary for me to call for that 1,000,0001. (Hear, one other point cmnected with our expenditure to which hear.) I say, under all the circumstances of the case, I wish to refer. I never yet have seen a Minister since and with due humility, when these imputations are I have sat in this house who made any real attempt te thrown out so freely of being disregardful of the publics diminish tee expenditure of the country. To take one faith, that that is a prudent, and, if carried int• effect, case. Ido not know the exact amount of the navy will be a very successful arrangement. (Cheers.) I have estimates, hut I know they are some millions in excess confidence in the state of the revenue because, as I of what was voted a few years ago. I suppose my showed the other day, there has been during the whole hon, friend the member for Lambeth (Mr. W. Williams) of this year a considerable rally in its chief brat °hes. could tell me to a sixpence--(lau g ht er )—f or I believe During th e l as t quarter a d ef i cit in the principal articles these vast estimates weigh upon his mind', and has been absolutely changed into a very erable disc , urage him () precisely as they do me . N ow, b surplus on th e es ti mate o f the Chancellor of cons the id Exche country has a fleet that can measure itself vita that of quer; and perhaps it will be interesting to the house if this country except France. Does anybody who sit, I tell them what is the state of the revenue for the first there (pointing to the back Opposition benches) deny that month of the present quarter. I will state the revenue the fleet of Russic cannot compare with ours 1 Austria in some of the principal articles in the month of April, and Prussia have no fleets at all of any consequence. 1857, as compared with the correspending month of 1858. Tue United States have one slip of the line and a fe w Tnisetatement is confined to the Excise, because, although , frig rtes, bvt not one ship of war in 10 compsred with our the account for the customs is extremely favourable, the navy. I should like t o know why it is necemary thatthis large amount paid for tea duty in April last year would country ehoule maintain many Istredrtd vessels of War of render it an unsatisfactory subject of comparison ; but ali sizes, when there is no other country which has a really there is an absolute increase in the month. In fleet to oppose to us, except that country which is out the month of April, 1857, when we were in the very nearest neighbour and closet ally, and which, we are height and flesh of our prosperity, and before the own told, is only anxious to be on teems of amity with us ? l ooro i a i c r i s i s we have since experienced was dreamed of, Hon, gentlemen may Mink the amity of nations is not the amount received from the Excise was 1,366,0001. always to be rilied upon, and althoueh I (to net d ium For the month of April this year, after having passed in the least the desire of the Emperor of the French t, be through the !ate commercial calamities, the amount was upon terms ef friendship with this country, yet I never 1,602,000/ (Hear, hear.) For stamps, the receipts in had myself the slightest sympathy lor that alliance which Awril,lBs7, were 484,0001.; in April, this year, 578,000/. has existed between France and England. Arney with (dear, hear.) Then, there is ; , 11 increase in the land and all nations, justic e an d courtesy to b u t i n tim a t e aid :t-sensed taxes, taking the Caine periods, of from 663,3001. political alli ances w ith none. That i s my p o li c y, an d I to 668 , 000/ .; not a large increase, but imp ortant as show ' believe it is the only policy i n th ese matters which cat, big the tendency of our revenue t o i mprove. (Hear, emd to good. If y ou as k the French Minister of Marin e h ear .) The increase why his e s ti ma t es are so l arge , w h a t w ill h e tell Le y ou 1 t e e most favourable kind, and we have therefore a He will tell you he is building great ships, which he be- ri g ht to assume that the striking indications of a rising Laves will never be of the least use, because England is revenue, of which I have spoken, are not of a fleeting building great ships, which every sensible Englishma n ma n an d evanescentfti charocter, hut arise from the essential also knows will nut be of the slightest use. He will say, .e , ource ceuritry. (Hear, hear.) The right bon France has almost no colonies, very little foreign cone gentleman did not end his speech with any motion to morce as compared, with this country, that France has indicate that he meant to oppose the second reading, pretension whatever to a great navy except her near- and therefore I will n t anticipate anything so disagree. policy of Eegland in alwal a able. (Hear, and a laugh.) The hon. member for BM nneoms to England, and the maintaining an envrtnous navy. Suppeeing that a mi, is- ruingharn made some observations respecting taxation i t r efteis couetry, d a ri,,g t o grappe. with this questi .ri which Id i riot think are just. (Hear, hear.) Ido not were to say to the Emperor of the French, inste: d i f think it is the main object of this house to remove taxa• squabbrne a',-boul the Sut a Canal, or, I will not nay bc- eon from property to labour. (Hear, hear.) I do not t ' but diffmlem from him upon the question of the (Mirk there is any desire in this holm to evade the fair may i Fig, , D o,abian Principalities, or neg Aiatieg about some pm - burdens a hich it should bear, and if this were a fitting try matter the decision of which eitear way WI lio opportunity to go into the subject i s detail—and it is affect any man in England —suppose, jested of that, a impossWe e to forum a just opinion regarding it without Mini le rwtre to say, " Why are we thus alway s pla t - g,ming into detail—l could show that the position of the ine at heg"..taring one another with millions spent wpm, hon. gentle:emu, that the necessary consequence of our , t ir nev while our populations are guff' ot in g ~, ere! % -.)pi em is that t ixaiiou must rest on the great bulk of the that we may hold our fists. in each Meter; face ?" 1 popu h i i on , c . hose incomes are sm a ll , i s a position which ask the house i !O n bg all eeriousness, would it not b e bet. ao c inn' t demonstrate, and that, on the contrary, I will ter, vl i on for the next five years, as we resit say the great bulk, tut the greater part of the taxa. have for the last five years, building vast, ships, which t:oo raised in this country is a burden on those who are a'l geed men hope will never be u;ed, and which all c:ll,d people of propel ty and the mass of the population sensible men know are not necei,sary for the p ur p oses w h o , a h e th er as doilies' cservante or in other oepacitielle of our security —would it not be better to ask the actually depend upon that property. not French Gov ernment, " Is it not possible to relieve your ttie emeirtute ty or the o ccasion to enter i a nto , the discus. Exchequer and our Exchequer, to relieve your p ople Moe, hat I could not listen to such an expression of met our people from ne Pressure of this vast Meatus, opieete en ihe part of the hon. member for Binning. which ice are constantly compelled to wring from them ?" hatn without at least entering my protest against It ll Why riot try some such course as that ? You have a se erd i t m an d i xere•eing my readiness whenever the ocoa• million cf paupers in England and Wales, you have pion offers to grapple with him on that subject, and esta• others in Scotland and Ireland, you have colonies be- blish ti the satisfaction of all unprejudiced men that is I I