The Sun. — London, England, 1858-05-11 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.--(YEsTERDSY,) ANNEXATION IN INDIA. The Earl of ALBEMARLE postponed the motion of which he had given notice, as he believed it was in some degree connected with the subject alluded to in Lord Canning 's proclamation. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH—The noble earl has done justice to one governor-general—may I ask him to do justice to another ? I do not mean myself ; for, of course, I do not expect that—but I mean Lord Dalhousie. The motion of the noble earl is the strongest possible censure upon the policy of Lord Dalhousie, which was supported by her Majesty's late ministers ; but it does not state fairly the principle upon which Lord Dalhousie did what he did. If his policy is to be censured, let the principle of it be stated in his own words ; and I do re quest that the noble earl, when he does bring forward his motion, if he ever does bring it forward, will state the principle he condemns, in the very words of the noble marquis Who preceded Lord Canning. LAW OF PROPERTY AMENDMENT BILL. This bill passed through committee. CUSTOMS DUTIES (No. 2) BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. EXCISE DUTIES BILL. On the motion for the third reading, Lord MONTEAGLE said he did not object to the very high rate of duty which it w as p ro p osed by the bi l l to levy upon Irish spirits, provi ded onl y that it co uld be collected. Perhaps he should be told thrthemeinpa their resent duties were punctually paid ; but he would lordships that the price o f grain had latterly been very high ; and when that wa s the case the revenue authori ties had seldom much to complain of. But in point of fact smuggling wa:i e increase ; for while the tcon sumption of spirits of late increased, the number of boand h ga ll on s taken for hom e consumption had diminished. The difference must, therefore, have been made up by spirits smuggled or illegally distilled. There was another matter to which he wished to refer. The admirable body of revenue police had been abolished, and while a fair provision had been made for its younger members, those who had grown old in the service had been treated fa a most miserably parsimonious manner. The Government would save 40,0001. by the proposed ar rangement, and they might do an act of justice to these men for 20,0001. a year. He bad no pers. , nal knowledge of any one of these parties, but he appealed to any noble lord connected with Ireland whether he had not justly estimated the services of this corps. He should not make any motion on the subjeot,;but he hoped t:te Go vernment would look into the matter and do what was just. The Earl of DONOUGHMORE was understood to say that his noble friend seemed to think that this mea sure would increase illicit distillation in Ireland, but it was believed that that would not be so. As to the quantity of spirits consumed in Ireland, it must be borne in mind that the population had diminished, for while in 1841 it was 8,502,000, in 1851 it was only 6,500,000, and at the commencement of this year it was only 6,000,000. He did not deny that the operation of increased duties was to diminish to sem° extent con sumption, but it was admitted on all bands that the t,)O free use of spirits was not good. His noble friend ad mitted that the police force had acted with great effect in checking illicit distillation, but he could not go with him in thinking that illicit distillation had increased in licensed distilleries. He thought it was wise to put the spirit duty of the two countries on the same footing. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thought that this matter was one of very great importance to Ireland, and he dreaded lest illicit distillation or the adulteration of spirits should increase. With reference to that class of persons to whom his noble friend (Lord Monteagle) had referred, they had been turned out of the public service at a time of life when it was almost impossible for them to devote themselves to anything else, and he recom mended their claims to the notice of the Government. The Earl of DERBY said that, as to the particular class alluded to who had been superannuated, he must say to the noble marquis opposite that it was quite suffi cient fir the Government to have to defend their own measures without having cast upon them the burden of defending the measures of the late Government. This was the second time within a short period when leading members of the late Government had ac cused them for acts of their own. (Hear, hear.) The late President of the Board of Trade had attacked the Government as to the arrangement for telegraphic com munication with India, and had made an admirable speech, pointing out the superiority of another plan, without waking to the consciousness that the plan so objected to was that adopted by the late Government of which he was a member. (Hear, hear.) The noble marquis protested as to the injustice of the superannua tion. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE—No. The Earl of DERBY—To the great hardship then in flicted on the officers of the revenue police by reason of the inadequacy of the compensation. It did happen that that compensation had not been assigned by the present Board of Treasury, but by the Government of which the noble marquis was so distinguished a mem ber. (Laughter.) The Marquis of CLANRICARDE—A complaint bad been made before he joined the late Government, and he had intended to bring it under the notice of his colleagues. The Earl of DERBY wondered that the noble mar quis had allowed the matter to sleep so long, (A. laugh.) It was at all events very extraordinary that the noble marquis had accepted office in the government that bad inflicted such hardship on a body of his countrymen—(a laugh)—if indeed it were a case of hardship ; but he did not think it was. He thought that these men had received as much as they were entitled to. Upon the consolidation of the revenue police with the general constabulary of Ireland, every man who was fit for service in the revenue police was transferred to the con stabulary police. They then had to deal with those who were incapable of performing their defies, and they were dealt with in this way. All who had served for a period of time which entitled them to receive less than half of their pay and emoluments had assigned to them a seat equal to half of their pay and emoluments, a sum larger than by any circumstances they were entitled to under the Superannuation Fund Act. Those who had served for a longer period, and came under the Superannuation Aet, had assigned to them the utmost amount that the Lords of the Treasury could assign ; this applied to those entitled to more than half their emoluments. The complaint really was not that the government had done too little for one class, but too much for the other. It was the old parable of the labourers in the vineyard : their eye (said the noble earl) is evil because ours is good. A memorial had been prepared in which superannuation was calculated upon the basis of pay and allowance', whilst the government took as their basis for superannu ation, pay and emoluments. "Allowances" included such items as forage for a horse ; but when a man left the service he, of course, had no claim to such an allow ance. Nothing could be more unjust than to regulate superannuation in reference, not to pay and emoluments, but to pay and allowances. What he said was this, that they had given to those who had only been a short time in the service more than they were entitled to, and they bad given to those who had been longer in the service the maximum that they were entitled to claim ; and under these circumstances he could not seethat the parties basi been dealt with unfairly. There may have been cases of individual hardship, but as a general rule he thought twat the late Board of Treasury had treated these parties with justice and liberality. Lord MONTEAGLE explained that be had said that both governments had done wrong. Nothing could be more unjust than to suppose that these men were claiming to receive compensation far horses and other allowances no longer necessary, for no such claims had been brought orward. Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY said he was in formed that the noble earl at the head of the government had stated that it was the p rac ti ceo f t h e l ate government to blame their successors for their own measures, and there was no doubt that the present government had h shown great facility in aba n d on i ng own measeres and adopting those of the late governmenrt With regard to the electric telegraph, what took pl ace , so f a collec'ed, was this—He had referred to negetiatr asio he 3 n r withe the Austrian government, and remarked that thenobl3 viscount (Lord Palmerston) had stated in the other house a few weeks before that all negotiation had (teased on the subject. It would be most detrimental to the public that the Austrian government should have the control of the telegraph. He said he hoped that an at tempt would be made to see whether the same ser vice could not be performed by English capital on more advantageous or cn equal terms, especially as the Aus trian Government intended to get the telegraph by Eng lish capital. The noble earl, he understood, was pleased to say that he bad only carried into effect the recom mendation of the late Government, but he understood there was no minute, no decision of the late Govern ment. (Hear.) There was a proposition from the Sar dinian Government, to which no answer had been re turned, and he must say that be was totally unable to get any satisfactory ans wer from the Government on this subject. The Earl of MALMESBURY—As to its being im possible to get an answer from the Government, he would tell their lordships what had occurred. In the first place, the noble lord gave notice. Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY said he had given no notice. The Earl of MALMESBURY—The noble lord's re lative told him at the bar of the house that the noble lord was going to ask a question. The noble lord himself seemed exceedingly uncertain whether he would bring on the matter or not ; and after wandering about the house far two or three hours,.said he would not bring it on._ As to the Sardinian Government, he had seen a document signed "J. Wilson," the name of a minister of the late Government. Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY—The noble earl referred to a question relative to the Cagliari, and not to a question as to the electric telegraph, the minute as to which could not be considered as the act of the late Government. The bill was then read a third ti me an d p asse d. The Exchequer:se:d (2,000,0001.) Bill was a l so rea d a third time and Their lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMNIONS.—(YEsTERDar.) INDIA. —VOTE OF CENSURE ON TIIE GOVERNMENT. Mr. CARD WELL gave notice• that he thou, on Thursday next mov e a res)lution in the foll owin a tar m 5: That the hous e, whilst it abstains from txpretssingmE:: op i n ion as to the policy of an y p roclamation by VleGoverno'r General in India in relation to Oade, has seen with re gret and serious apprehension that her Majesty's Go vernment has addressed to the Governor-General of India, through the secret committee of the East India House, a despatch, condemning in strong terms the conduct of the Governor-General of India, and that they are of opinion such a course, on the part of her Majesty's Government, must tend, under the present circumstances in I❑dia, to pro duce a most prejudicial effect in that country, by weakening the authority of the Governor-General, and encouraging the further resistance of those still in arms against us." (Loud cheers.) OATHS BILL. On the motion that the Lords' amendments to this bill be agreed to on clause 5. Lord J. RUSSELL moved that they should not be agreed to by that house. Mr. NE WDEGATE supported the amendments. Sir R. BETHELL urged that it was the duty of the House of Lords to have attended to the feelings of the people of this country, and to have agreed to the bill in the form in which it was sent up to their lordships' house. The House of Commons had on repeated occasions passed such a bill as this, and with increasing numbers and in various Parliaments. He hoped the house of Lords would not drive the House of Commons into collision with them, and compel this house to seat Baron Rothschild by resolution. If it was necessary he would move such a resolution, After some remarks from Sir J. PAKINGTON in expla nation, Mr. S. WARREN, amidst cries of " divide," ad dresssed the house in favour of their lordships' amend• ments. If the learned gentleman (Sir R. Bethell) thought the House of Lords would yield to his threats, he would find he had never committed a greater blunder in his life. Only two Jews had been elected to serve in Parliament, and no petition had been presented to that house from members of the Jewish persuasion in favour of the bill. The people of England, as a body, were opposed to the introduction of Jews into Parliament. ("Hear, hear," and " divide"). After some remarks from Mr. T. DIINCOMBE and Sir J. PAIINGTON, The house divided, when the numbers were— For disagreeing with the Lords' amend ments to clause 5, inserting the words " on the true faith of a Cnristian For the Lords' amendments ... 26S 150 Majority . 113 The other amendments were also disagreed to. Lord J. RUSSELL Mo;ed the appointment of a corn. mittee for drawing up the reasons of the Commons dis agreeing to their Lordships' amendments, with a view to a conference with their Lordship, viz., Lord John Russell, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir J. Pakington, Lord Stanley, Sir F. Kelly, Lord Palmer ston, Sir G. Lewis, Sir G. Grey, Mr. Labouchere, Sir J. Graham, Mr. Gladstone, Mr. Cardwell, Sir R. Bethell, Mr. Bright, Mr. M. Gibson, Mr. Horsman, Mr. Dillwyn, Mr. T. Duncombe, Mr. Headlam, Mr. Roebuck, Mr. Moncreiff, Mr. J. D. Fitzgerald, Mr. Deasy, and Mr. J. A. Smith. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE in accordance with precedent of a person returned to that house who had not taken the oaths, moved that Baron Rothschild be one of the committee, in order that he might state his reasons and opinions at the conference. Mr. DILLWYN seconded the motion. If Baron Rothschild had the right of sitting on a committee, he ought to be allowed to do so. The very fact of a mem ber of the Jewish persuasion acting as a member of a committee would give a practical illustration of the ab surdity of the present law—an illustration which per haps might have some effect in another branch of the Legislature. (Hear, and laughter.) The question having been put, Mr. NEWDEGA.TE rose, amidst much laughter, and said the house bad on two different occasions de clared that Mr. Salomons and Baron Rothschild were incompetent to sit or vote in the house, and he con ceived the precedent referred to by the hop. member for Finsbury inapplicable to the present case in the face of such decisions. (Hear.) He wished to ascertain the opinion of the right hon. member the Secretary for the Home Department whether a person who had been de clared incompetent to sit in the house could be ap pointed a member of a committee ? (Hear, hear.) Mr. WALPOLE said he had been somewhat taken by surprise by the proposition of the hon. member for Finsbury. (Laughter.) He thought the house ought carefully to consider the proposition of the hon. member before coming to any positive decision. He (Mr. Wal pole) was not at all aware that ouch a course of proceed ing was about to be taken, and therefore had not had time either to look at the precedent, or to consider the effect of the proposition. To the best of his recollection, the act of Parliament attached the penalty to members for voting or sitting during debate. If so, pcossitly it would not only apply to the present case. One thing struck him on the face of the precedent which had been quoted, namely, that in 1715, no person was duly quali fied to take any part in the proceedings of the house without being sworn, not merely at the table, hut before the Lord High Steward. He could not find whether Sir Joseph Jekyll had not been sworn or not. If he had been so sworn, be would have been returned to the house as a member, and that was a material element in the con sideration of the question. All he could say was that, if Baron Rothschild by constitutional precedent was entitled to sit on a committee, hs would offer no ob• jection to his doing so. (Hear.) Dirt he asked the house to consider whether they were really right in following the course recommended, and adopting a novel proce.d lost which might lead to inconvenience and difficulty. (Hear, and oh, oh.) Mr, BOUVERIE said his attention had been called, to this point some tiros ago, and he thought there could be no doubt, on the face of the precedent, that Baron Rothschild was entitled to sit on the committee. He should therefore support the motion. (Cheers.) Mr. LYGON thought it desirable that the house should know whether Sir J Jekyll was sworn before he acted on the committee, because, if so, there would be a great difference between the two cases. Lord J. RUSSELL had been as much taken by sur prise as the right hoe. Home Secretary by the proposi tion which had just been made. Three or four years ago he had looked at the precedent referred to, and believed that Sir J. Jekyll served on that committee before be took the oaths, but he rather thought the omission was owing to the accidental circumstance of his not having arrived in time to do so. It was perfectly understood at the time that Sir J. Jekyll would take the oaths as soon as he had the opportunity. At the same time, he thought the precedent sufficiently strong to justify the hon. member for Finsbury in proposing that Baron Rothschild should be added to the committee, and it the hon. member pressed the question he should certainly vote with him. (Cheers.) He thought, however, that it would have have been more courteous to the house if notice had been given of the proposition. (Hear.) Sir J. PAKINGTON thought the question bad been treated with the most perfect fairness by his right bon. friend (Mr. Walpole.) Whatever were the opinions of honourable gentlemen as to the question of the admits. idon of the Jews to Parliament, he believed that none desired to interfere with their legal rights, and if Baron Rothschild had a legal right to sit on a committee he believed the general feeling of the house would be in accordance with the view empressed by his right hon. triend, There was considerable difficulty about the question, as it turned on the construction of a precedent with which the great body of members of the house could no e fo x tf p a e ior c bn t j e ee d scst toto that b t he thee a p c o q se hon.t a p i o n n t e em d m . eeran bt H eor e t f t to r hr u e st l e u d e Finsburyaatsi o n a n m w o ' a t u t t l b e a r e till to-morrow. (Hear.) Mr. WARREN rose as a friend of Baron Rothschild to express a hope that a little more time would he allowed for the consideration of the matter. (Laughter and cries of Oh, oh.) He would advise Baron Roths chile's friends to consider the position in which they were about to place him—(laughter)—and to examine carefully the nature of the liabilities which might attach to him. (Hear, hear.) Lord PALMERSTON recommended the hon. mem ber for Finsbury to yield to the suggestion which had been thrown out, and allow more time for considera tion. (No, no.) Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he was not aware that the committee would have been nominated immediately. If the ordinary course had been pursued of placing the names on the paper, he should have given notice of his iMention to propose the name of Baron Rothschild. The resolution of the home in the case to which he had re ferred was perfectly clear on the subject ; and all he asked the house to do was to permit Baron Rothschild to act on the committee, although, as was the case with Sir J. Jekyll, he had not been sworn by the clerk at the table. (Cheers.) Mr. MELLOR trusted the house would not act rashly in a matter of such importance, but adjourn its conside ration until to-morrow. Lord H. VANE sugges t e d th e p ro p r i e ty o f t a ki ng the subject into consideration as a matter of privilege at halbpast 4 to-morrow. (Hear, hear.) Sir J. SHELLEY concurred in the suggestion. T a t e h e C d H e A b a N t e C b E e L . ( 1.4 1 j OR n o t. f d t t h i l e l h E a X i i - C p a Ll s t E 4 Q t U o - E m R O r r m o o w v . e d The moti on that bate was a lour Ny n a e s d th a en r!o p rd u i t n a g ni ly'. agreed to, and the de- THE STATUE OF DR. JENNER. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished to ask a question with respect to the statu e of Dr. Jenner in Traf a lg a r-square. He thought it highly ina . r: t o a p r er to place such a s tatue among the naval an d and everybody spoke with ridicyuleand disgust of th e manner in which th e s it e had :l u e t se h cr a a d te a t y wished to know whetm-r the government jectioo to the produc ion of the correspondenceHobe which had taken place on the subject! Lord J. MANNERS had no objection to the produc tion of the papers, but said he should like to consult his right hon. predecessor on the subject. THE NEW ZEALAND LOAN. On the question that the house resolve itself into a committee of supply, Sir J. TRELA%'NY rose to call its attention to cer tain pa - isagee in the evidence given by one of the wit nesses before the New Zealand L oan ( 500,0001. ) , Guar antee Committee, and to c impare the Fame with records of .he pri ceeclings of the New Zealand house of Assem bly, in which the witness referred to took part. Also to call attention t , certain dealings with the natives for the sale of their lands, and to the manner in which recent cont-acts made with them with respect to schools rind hospitals by a government officer have been carried into effect. What he complained of was simply this, that Ah e n the bill was under discussion many h P. members had been unduly influenced by evidence which was in some respects very inaccurate. In his evidence before the committee Mr. Sewell stated that if Parliament proposed to advance 200,0001. instead of 500,000/. the proposition would not be acceded to by the colony, the fact being that the House of Representatives had passed a resolu tion, in which Mr. Sewell concurred, that the smaller roo o ,,t u d n i t st s . hould be accepted. Tee other case involved 1 Betish nation, the honour good faith, and justice of the 30,000,0 __i I appeared that Mr. Mantel' had bought Vt.) of acres of the THE SUN, LONDON, _TITESD/,,Y EN ENING, MAY II, 1858. made at Birmingham cost 3/. ss. or 3/. 6e. The trials made between the guns of Enfield and Birmingham were, as he understood, all in favour of the Enfield gun. Tee prophecy made by the Birmingham people with re gard to the machinery had completely failed, for the pieces fitted admirably with each other. The experiment of the Enfield was therefore entirely successful. He con , curred in the praise which was due to the artificers and workme❑ of Birmingham, but he did not think that the gun trade would be injured by the establishment at Enfield. General PEEL hoped his hon. friend would allow the dispute between Birmingham anti Enfield to come to an end. He did not believe that Birmingham would be in jured by Enfield. There was at present plenty of work for both. The price of the Enfield rifle was 2/. 6id., that of the London and Birmingham trade was 21. 18s. M. But there was also the advantage 'that the pieces of the rifles m 91e at Enfield fitted into each other. Mr. NEWDEGATE said that some of the muskets which were sent from Birmingham and tried at the Tower very nearly interchanged with each other, so ex cellent was the work, although they were not intended to do so. What the best witnesses said was, not that interchangeability could cot be established, but that the weapons so made would not be so perfect and lasting as those made by hand labour. With regard to the dif ference of price, he could only say that the Americans, who made very cheap guns, had not succeeded i❑ mak ing guns so cheaply as the Enfield rifios were said to be made, He was sure that the trade would avail them selves of any improvements which were made good at Enfield. Sir J. RA.NISDEN said that the Birmingham gun trade continued to make guns by hand, whereas at En. field they were made by machinery, and this produced the difference in price. Every encouragement was given by the Government to the private trade, with a view to their erecting machinery, so as to keep the En field establishment up to the mark by compe'ition. Mr. W. WILLIAMS was willing to assume that the difference betwee❑ the cost of weapons made in the Go v,rnment establishment and by private individuals was correct. That was not the usual result, but the hon. gentlemna❑ who spoke last explained the reason. There were items for muskets made at Liege, St. Etienne, and other foreign places. He should like to know the cause of this. . General PEEL said that these were contracts made (luring the war, which' were not yet completed. In one instance 12.000 muskets had been delivered, and 10,000 in another, hut all had not been yet delivered. Colonel BOLDERO said that experiments had bee❑ made at Woolwich between "Old Bess," the Enfield rifle, and Mr. Whitworth's invention. The result was that one ball from "Old Bass" struck a target six feet kigh at a distance of 300 yards. The Enfield rifle, at 500 yards, made 25 per cent., and the Whitworth, at 800 yards equalled the Enfield. (Hear, hear.) The Enfield earried 1,100 yards, but Whitworth's carried 2,000. Gtneral CODRINGTON said that he was last year the president of the committee by which these experi ments were conducted. The committee had to investi gate into the range and precision of the guns, and their applicability to the lives and quarters 4f the soldier. Toe committee had as yet only tune to 'investigate the range, arid there could be no doubt as to the value of Whitworth's arm. There was no difficulty with Whitworth's gu❑ to get so many shots in the tar get as to enable them to take an average ; but that was no. the ca=e with the others. Tne invention was no doubt of the gr,ateet value. He understood that com mittee of invest!gation was to be made permanent. Lord ELCHO understood that the greater efficacy of the Whitworth gun arose from its smaller bore. harder metal than lead was made which increased the penetration. Sir W. CODRINGTON said that the experiments at Woolwich were carried on, not to try the absolute merits of Mr. Whitworth's gun, but to test it in com parison with the Enfield, and in both case's soft lead was used. It was a part of the merit of Mr. Whitworth's gun that an iron ball could be used without damaging the gun. General PEEL bad no doubt, after what the gallant general bad sta , ed, of the superiority of the Whitworilt gun, and every encouragement had been given by the Government for testing its merits. Mr. CONINGHAAI said it was a aew thing for Go vernment to produce a cheaper article.than private in dividuals. But the circumstance was explained by the fact that machinery bad been erected at Enfield. The principle of Government turning manufacturer was false and dangerous. If the Whitworth gun superseded the Enfield, would it not entail a loss upon the country ? Sir W. CODRINGTON thought the manufacture of arms was an exception to the general rule, and that the result justified the experiment which had been made. 16 was a matter of experience that articles manufactured by contract were not always to be trusted, and it was of vital importance that the army should have weapons in which they could trust. Mr. NEVVDEGATE said that the superiority of the rifles furnished to the trade had been clearly proved in the Crimean and Indian war. Tao principle of the pre ei;t Eufield was devised by Mr. Westley Ili3harde, and the best thing done by the late Government was the associating him with Mr. Whitworth, which ended in the production of the Whitworth rifle. Hs trusted the house would not believe that the trade were likely to allow themselves to be boat ; the country could not com mit a greater mistake than to sacrifice private trade to support. a Government. establishment which coal only be c,rried on at a great expense. Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that in the estimates the storoke,pers and barrack m;isters were in columns. He thought the duties of these departments could be per formed by one staff of officers* Th-- vote was then agreed to ; as wac also the next, 358,317/., waged of artiff:ers and labourers. On the next vote, 450,4601. for clothing and neceosariee, Mr. MONSELL asked the rea.ou of the increase of the vote for clothing of the infantry of the line. General PEEL said be had himself been surpie..ed at the increase, but it aro e from the increa,ed sum g iven to recruits. They now go t th e b oun ty i n f u ll, an d part of the increase was to provide for the free kit which was given. The vote for the embodied militia made up the rest of the increase. Mr. WILLIAMS also considered the vo c very large, but he congratulated the right hon. gentl,man on having abandoned the building at Itotherhithe, which would have cost 300,0001 I.mel KNOX said that the present system of the clothing was the Nont p issible. It now cost twice as much as it, and the soldier was not as efficiently clothed. Tne system of clothing colonels was the most ccJnomical for the country. Colonel GILPIN also thought the old System svgs the most economical. — Col. BOLDER() objected to the v Its. He thought it was not in a proper for,n. It WP.s impossible to tell from it what was the cos: of clothing a private soldier. Cloth ing and neces,aries ought to be kept distinct. As far as he cool make ant, the clothing of each man cost 31. lls. Under the old system it was only 2/. 6s. If they bad all the details, he was sure they would find the loss double. Lord ELCITO wished to aik a question with regard to the great coats. He Lund that a system had been introduced in London of having an extra great coat hawing up in each sentry-box, but at Edi n b urg h C as tl e th e was nothing of the kind, General CODRINGTON said the regiments could use up the old grea coats for the purpose ; they only required t ask p=rmission. General PEEL would be very glad to have the custom introduced in all garrisons. Every sentry-box of ,the Guards now had a tzreat coat in it, Mr. KINNAIRD thought it would be better to diminish the number of sentries, There was no possible use for them. Colonel BOLDERO raid the East India Company was responsible f, ,r 92,000 men, but he unders , nod the War Department now wished to clothe them, He wished to know why there was no appearance of this charge in the (stimates. General PEEL said that the East India Company paid a certain sum every month, but it went to the Treasury, not to the War Department. Lord ELCao thought it was a mere work of super erogation to have sentries at the Royal Academy and the British Instltution. Major WORTLEY said those sentries were on duty only in the d tame. Mr. WORTLEY thought it would be better if the whole of the charge troops in India was borne on tl - e votes, and credit then given for the sum paid by the East India Company. The vote was then agreed to. On the next vote, 690,624/. for provisions, fuel, and light, Mr. MONSELL asked whether there would be any objection to ailow the permanent staff of the militia to obtain rations at contract price ? After a brief conversation the vote was agreed to, as was also a vote of 634,727/. to defray the expense of war like stores for the land and sea forces. On the vote of 285,736/. for fortifications, Sir C. NAPIER took exception to the item in the estimate for forts. described the forts as being small and useless, and objected to their being spread over the whole of our c a-t, as trey were so insignificant as to be quite inapplicable to repelling an invading force. He proposed, therefore, to move the reduc:ion of the vote by 50,0001., the amount required fur these inter.nediste torts. Sir J. RAMSDEN observed that the hoe, and gallant admiral was under a mistak e in supposing that the forts exttek - Aed over the whole of the coast. The charge to which he referred was fur three forts between Gosport and the advanced lines. Sir C. NAPIER said this explanation removed his objection to the vote. Sir J. TR ELA.WNY compla'.ned that many of the forts being built of limestone were who ly unfit for their purpose, and instanced the one as the back of Mount Edgecumbe, which a 30-gun brig would destroy in ten minutes. Mr. \V, WILLIAMS deprecated the outlay for this class uf works, H. WILLOUGHBY wished 1) know whether the 21,0007. st,iteci iu this estimate w.nle. finish the work ? Gen. PEEL could not say ; but is reply to another question, ssid that any balance that might remain over the expenditure of the yel-a would be paid back again, into the Exchequer. The limestone forts had been erected oil the recommendation of a scientific commission. The vote was agreed to. 74,780/. for civil buildings, after a brief discussion, was also agreed to. 397,6911. for barracks. NORTH asked if any notice was to be taken of those plants which had been sent in and gained priz , s by competing architects. He beiieved the cost of the prize plan was 140/. a man, while the cost of the barracks at i r the s, requirementsv asloO/. ofa court-martial DidluAlaldue.hotthiswl'i r cl o ho o o l: l ;s 3 , as mesa rGbuani lt r ob o vy o e na re s an f l and other necessary items of accommodation which were included in the esti mate of the architects ? With regard to the statement of his Royal Highness the Commander in-Chief about the barracks of this country, every word of that statement he believed to be true and incapable of contradiction. His Royal Highness stated that the Horse Guards was net accountable for the state of the barracks ; that he was aware many things were required for the comfort and accommodation and health of the soldier, but that he did not hold the purse strings of the nation, and that any representations made by him were met by the reply that no funds were available. Referring to the speech of Lard Paninure, in answer to the Royal Duke, in which the noble lord spoke of the advantages the soldiers en joyed he (Col. North) held that though the soldier had perhaps no legal right to a pension, it had always been understood that after 21 years' service the pension would be given as a matter of course, and he did not believe that any Secretary of State would venture to rtfuse it. Then as to the rations, though they might be supplied at less than the market price in this country, in many of the colonies the men were charged considerably more than the price paid by Government for the food. The state .f Portman-street barracks was disgraceful ; and with re gard to the barracks of the Sappers and Miners at Chat ham, which Lord Panmure referred to, was it fit that the barrack accommodation for that or any othercorps should be so deficient that one set of men had to turn into the beds from which another set turned out ? The hon. and gallant gentleman urged that the mode in which thebar rack repairs were performed was most faulty. He also referred to the report of the Sanitary Commie.-ion, in order to show that it was not the fault of the military authori ties that the barracks were not more healthy, as every de partment had made every requisition for that purpose. If the correspondence on the subject, which had been pro mised by the Secretary for War, did not show this, he should move f,n• further information. General PEEL explained that the correspondence moved for by the boo. and gallant member for &Amin would not give a fair and full account of the circum stancJs connected with the various alterations which had been made in barracks. He agreed that plenty of re quisitions had been sent in for this object, but where there was no vote of the house the answer was always the same—that there was no money. Sir J. RAMSDEN admitted that the Horse Guards were not to blame for the shortcoming in barrack accom modation, but he also contended that Lord Panmure was not to blame, as he had immediately on coming into office, appointed a committee to inquire into the state of barrack accommodati in, and since then there had been great improvement. Neither was this house to biams, for in 1855, 1850, and 1857 not less than 1,500,0001. had been spent on barracks by the house. The real truth was, that in long rars of economy the barracks ha i fallen into such a state of neglect that it would take year. to do anything effectual with them. Colonel NORTH —Wuo is to blame ? Sir J. lIA.MSDEN—The economy of previous year;'. • Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that Col. North had made a most unfoueded charge against the house, f between 1854 and 1858 not less than 3,134 0431. had been spent on barracks, besides 700,000/. for huts. The repairs cost 300,0001. a year, and in one year the house voted 40,0001. for pl..ns of improvements in barracks. He found that 400,0001. had been voted for Alder.shott, which had been ex_eieded by 13,000/. This year 88,000/. was asked for, and a further sum of 20,0001. would be required, making 531,720/. wl:ech would be required. But would that complete ihe work, the total sum esti mated fOr which was 400,000/ ? There must be some bad management in laying out these enormous sums. Sir H. VERNEYwouId like to know who was re sponsible for the position of the barracks at Aldershott. Taey were placed in such a psition that a hospital could not be erected unless more land was bought. Colonel B. KNOX had already protested against the infamous state of the tarracks, especially those in Pert man-street. He must remark that tenders had been a,ke i from architects for plans for barracks, which had been sent in, and were very creditable petfortnances Were those persons who sent in the plans to he employed in building barracks ? He Lared not, and if so it would be a great fraud on them if the Royal Engineers took advantage of their plans. He di-approved of the en trusting to engineer offi,!ers the of barracks, and he regretted that the hoe. and gallant member for Chatham was not present ; but he wished to say he ttAght great blame attached to that hon. and gallant gentleman, who bad been instructed to lay out barracks at Aldershott, and he wanted to know why the barracks were opened on the confines of the estate. They were on one side of the road, and the village on the other had gas, while there was none in the camp. The expenditure at Aldershott had been very great at a time when barracks were so much wanted elsewhere. It was to have been a temporary camp, but it had since been built up with huts, which were going to pieces. He h. , pad that something would be done to get the troops in LAI• don better barracks. Colonel BOLDERO agreed that the old barracks were had and uninhabitable, but what he was astonished at wa; that the new works should be carried on on a had plan. There had been a reckless expenditure on Aldershott, which was to hare been a common encamp ment for troops, but which had been changed into a per mament camp, composed of huts, which were already rotten, and no a permanent barracks were being guilt. He wished to know how it was that when there was such a large ❑umber of men at Aldershott they were not employed i❑ making the road and draips. The expen diture for the present year under these heads would be 550,0001., to which iou,t be added 100,0001. for huts. As regarded Netley Abbey Hospital, Surwton Gibson had stated that the si - .e was quite unsuitable for such a boil ,ing. He was told that at low water the foundation was on a level wish the sta. Lord EBRINGTON said, though he bad no wish to anticipate the motion of which he had given n,,tice the following day, with rga'd to the rafirtal;ty cf the army, be must make one or two remarks having a bear ing on that subjec:. The teal question was whether, having f .oled a good deal of money away, at Allershott and elsewhere, they were not bound to continue their expenditure till the soldier was lodged in a manner which would give him as good a chance of life as was possessed by the community generally. Portman Bar ram:6 were, as had been stated, very bad, but they were far from being the worst barracks that he h a d s e e n . The Wo dwichbarracks were in such a dilapidated con dition that the gAileries a ong which the soldiers walked had to be shored up to prevent accidents and loss of life; and in the very centre of the bullring, and under neath the soldiers' dormitorie=, were laboratories and other places which were enough to breed a pestilence ; wlii!e in one part of the barracks there still remained the old and justly condemned arranenient of a double tier of beds. It would be impossible to fetch up the arrears cf accommodation fog :oldkrs without a con siderable oufliy, and in a mere economical point of view it was desirable tat the exis:mg defects should be re moved. Mr. TITE ?aid a few years ago architects were in vited to send in plans for barracks, and a promise was given that the successful competitors should be em ployed, the premiums being made very small on that account ; and the architects who happened to be suc cessful new complained, and he thought justly, that the promise made had not been fulfilled. He had been in communication on the subject with the Secre tary at War, who had promised to give the subject his best consideration. The great evil hitherto had been that barracks had been erected without any definite plan. He could not but think that architects who were accustomed to erect civil buildings were the most suitable persons to erect barracks. As regarded Netley Hospital, for which a 'vote sf 73,0001. was asked, he trusted that the hon. and gallant general would postpone it till after the re port of the crietnission had been laid before the house, together with the report of the medical officers. Gen. PEEL paid of course if the architects alluded to by the hon. genVenaan were promised employment they had a just ground of complaint. Their plans, however, did not seem at all economical. The estimate for infantry barracks was 1401. p,r bead, for cavalry barracks 3001. per head, and for artillery 3301. per head, whereas the c st actually incurred at Aldershot was 451. for the in fantry, 1501. for the cavalry, and 1571. for the artillery. He thought that, although Aldershot had been so much abused, the barracks there were, on the whole, very good. The only fault which he had to find was that they were situated at the extremity of the property. With respect to the remarks of the noble lord (Ebrington) he thought his wisest course was to deal with matters as he found them. It was of no use to talk about the money which had been spent in vain ; what the Government wuuld do was to endeavour as far as possible to apply a remedy to existing evil , . Mr. S. HERBERT agreed with the hon. and gallant general that the point now was to endeavour to net right whatever was wrong in the barracks. In consider ing the amount of money which had been spent they shouid take into account the enormous size of barracks. A barrack was, in fact, a town. There was a larger population in Wellmgtotabarracks than was to be found in c,r , ain towns which were represented in that house. (Laughter,) I bat-mike there must be a prison, read ing-room,, and suitable residences far the officers ; in fact a barrack was a complete town. Lord Panmure had attributed to him the statement that the great mor tality among the Guards was the consequence of their being over-crowded. He did not say they were over crowded: he abstained from assigning any r. ason for the morality among them. Hisl , r,isbip also remarked that there were fewer admissions into the hospital of Portman barracks than into the'hospital ~f almost any other bar rack. If he examined he would find that cases of fever and other serious complaints were very numerous in the Portman-barracks, and hence it was that they were re presented a‘ so unhealthy. He had the greatest confi dence that in the hands of the hon. and gallant gentle man this question t f barrack accommodatien would be dealt with in a satisfactory manner. As regarded Netley Hospital, he was still of the opinion he had expressed, that the site was a most unfortunate one ; and as to the aledinal Board, to whom Lord Panmure referred, all he could say was that they appeared, like many civil boards, to have paid very little attention to the construction of ho-pitais. General PEEL said that as a contracthad been entered into the vote could not be postponed. Mr. TITE observed that although a contract had been entered into, there would be no chlEculty in stopping or postponing the works. After a few words from Sir 11. VERNEY, General PEEL sa id b e b ad no objection to take a por tion of the vote and postpone the remainder. (Hear.) Major WORTLEY proposed that the sum of 88,000/. for the Aldershot barracks be struck out of the vote. After a few remarks from Colonel Gilpin and Sir J. Ramsdell, Captain ANNESLEY said that a more unfit place for soldiers could not be found than Portman barracks, and he wideed to know whether they were likely to be done away with ? General PEEL said that nothing could be determined upon until after the report had been received. The amendment of Major Wortley was then put and tZheealannedb,lehalndredvtidbeenstley. b it o ? n. gentleman ; but why had he not himself acted upon mind ed been decor peretary f the Colonies to examine into the facts of the Sir F. SMITH agreed in what had fallen from the two case, and 1. he trusted that he would no longer allow the last speakers. He thought it most desirable that each tahnedn he iev called s of N on n w eeiovpelde: t o remain under the great stigma which in regiment should have what might be called a home, and he instanced the Marines as illustrating the advantage of named no • said the hon. baronet had raised two that tysteni. Having himself served at Aldershott, he NewßrLordßritishSTANLEY ealZealand nttTachheedtrostitsv. as the had always been of opinion that a Land Transport Corps distinct ques • with regard to educe officers and in the of teen of the evidence given by Mr. Sewell before the New Zealand was . the only thing wanted there to complete the d Loan Committee of last year. the hon. baronet could that the not be mgr© surprised questions, Marines should be the favourite corps of the service. A •ed than he was who first he pointed Col. BOLDER() said it wise . not remarkable ont to his notice the apparent discrepancy between Mr. Sewell's evidence and the facts as they appeared on the man who entered the service went on board s hip f o r o fficial records of the local legislatu re of New Zealand. three or four years, and when he returned to England he The house would remember that they were asked last had often 601. or 701. of pay to receive. He could then year to give the imperial guarantee to a loan of half-a- purchase his discharge and commence some small busi million for purposes connected with the colony of New ness with 401. or fur the sleeping accommoda was there their commissions b to be guaranteed for one purpose, and 300,0001. for they seldom . got . efore .. they were 19, Zealand. (Hear, hear.) It seemed that 200.0001. was tion at Woolwich, he remembered when he \ s i ll: o p o r l l w se ic d h to w o h u e l d be nee of jointly occupy than otherwise. They I whether in the event of Parliament being unwilling to used to mess toge sanctionlohg oneroom ake the junior schelars another. The question was raised before the committee and they rather preferred the practice a guarantee for the whole amount, a guarantee t er and m . fag them ; and they Ir, had lived by themselves. (A laugh.) of 200,0001., if offered, would be accepted by the legis- found . that their money would go farther than if they lature of the colony. The question was put to 2.. r the obser the legislature and distinctly negatived,Now it a - Sewell, aud he replied that the question was raised in .. the gallantcolonel,For his a p vations of own part he hoped made as peered by the records of the New Zealand legislature the alteration g that a resolution was passed directly contrary to the soo G n en as possible. evidence he had just quoted. The resolution was in the . Esa that everythinewhich fell fro the the Major‘VßsunEesYtedwaats lrW c a j m gallant genera ear . o ring ton would always meet fallowing words :—" That in the event of the financial the greatest attention; but - the gallant general scheme of the Government failing for raising the neces- with , sary loan of 500,0001.,.; that when there was so much pressure upon the loan of 200,0001. offered by must know . service, they could not afford to be too the Home Government for the liquidation of the New the recruiting Before the Zealand Company's debt shall be received on the terms particular.breaking out of the mutiny, the in round proposed, and the mode of payment shall stand over as British a r r e m i y n was s da itself foarre numbers ini e l n s t 7 B ,o f oO e stro l ng, and d part of the general adjustment of the public require- there w were of infantry. At the g present moment vary'a t h he ments." Now here he paused to observe that that was 24 battalions .. total British force consisted of about 223,000 men ; so the first part of the resolution ; but then there came an . t had been necessary to raise d addition to it : "It being an essential part of such ad- thet'during the past year than 56,000 additional me justment that the land, on being exonerated from its fewerno win there were ladia 23 regiments of cavalry and lO5 battalions special liabilities, as well as from the New Zealand heinfantry.lt had thus been debt, in accordance with the resolution, shall be relieved of necessary to send out prospectively as well as retrospectively from an y other from the home establishinett 19 regiments of cavalry up the deficiency liability." Now there was no do ubt that, on the face of and 81 battalions of in fant ry. To make a ed they had formed two ne it, that resolution purported to be an acceptance . by t a o nd cre ne t of infantry ; and they b w ad regichentsof cavalry the legislature of the colony, or at least by one branchraised 25 second ba t one T hey had • , moreover increased the strength of it, of that very proposition which Mr. Sewell stated ta 1 _ of the cavalry gments from 469 te 660 men and that that the legislature had refused to accede to, and on . from 840 ' j of the honourable baronet he of the infantry regiments to 950 men. The hearing the statement number of men voted had not yet been raised ; but as lost no time in applying to Mr. Sewell for an expla h d b enlisted • . nation. The explanation was that the resolution di- 48,000 men a een in eight months, he saw vided itself into two parts. The fi rst p art acce p ted the no reason to doubt that such would soon be the case. proposition of a guarantee limited to 200,0001., which annual casualties were very h e avy. Taking them The te d • was moved, as he understood, by a mem ber in o pp osi- at the ordinaryng pears, namely 12 per cent., tion. For some reason the members of the local govern- they would ha during req , inre aou 30 000 ( recru every year to keep up the strength b of t the ary. To this must be ment did not think fit to meet the resolution by a direct negative, but they met it by an amendment or addition, added another 20,000 ofmen still wanting to complete the which neutralised the first part of the resolution, and military armaments the country ; and it would thus appear that the total number of recruits that would be rendered it totally unmeaning, and in that li g ht, ap parently, the amendment was received by the local legis- needed during the year would be 50,000. (Hear, lature. He did not find that it came before the 'Upper hear.) In the first irstance the standard had been House, and it appeared to have been treated as—what lowered to 5 feet 3 inches, in order to provide troops for in feet it was—a dead letter. The resolution was coupled India, but it had been •aised again to sft. 4in. With with an impossible condition, and consequently amounted regard to the Commissariat and the Land Transport to a virtual refusal. Dir. Sewell's statement that the Corps, nothing was more difficult to keep up in the time offer had been distinctly negatived undoubtedly went of peace than establishments of this description ; but. he further than the facts of the case warranted ; but when proposed to institute to inquiry into the subject. He a witness was questioned and cro=s-questioned, and every would also take the other subjects which had been men word was taken down as it came from his mouth, he tioned into consideration. He wise very glad to say that might, without intending it, fall into some inaccuracy o f a plan h a d been suggested by which faith could be kept statement—but Mr. Sewell contended that what he with the students at ehrshalton, without any expense to stated was substantially the truth, and that no deception the country. The aconamodation for those at Wool Niel was practised upon the committee, and if the guarantee should receiveattentan ; but he would remind the house had been limited to the smaller sum of 200,0001. it would that at the time he- cane into office the determination not have been accepted by the local legislature. So come to was that they should be removed to Sandhurst. much for the case of Mr. Sewell, and now with regard Col. NORTH conk not help expressing the regret he to the case of Mr. Mantell and the purchase which he felt that 16 militia reginents should have been disbanded had made of lands from the natives. Mr. Mantell was ata moment when the army was 20,000 men under the a ppointed a commissioner for the purchase from the na- strength voted by P e element. Reduction and then in tives of lands in the settlements of Canterbury and Ott go. crease of the army used an immense expense to the He believed that the amount Mr. Mantell purchased was country, and was newt injurious to the service. 30 millions of acres, and that th e price was 5,0001, N o w, The house then went into committee on the he was not defending all that had taken place at New ARMY ESTIMATES. Zealand and elsewhere with regard to the purchase o f On the first vote, 1)1,977/. for the departments of the land. He was willing to admit that unjustifiable traneac- Secretary of State for War and the Commander-in-Chief, tions had taken place with regard to the purchase) of Mr. W. WILLIAMS complained of the loose way in land from aborigines. They had generally taken place which the estimates vere placed before the house. This not in consequence of, but notwithstanding, the policy vote comprised sums:or three assistant secretaries ; what and wishes of Government. But when they were speak- were they all to do! He also found a large salary of ing of the price given to the natives for land as being in- 9501. put down for the chaplain general. What were the adequate, they must bear in mind that the value these duties of this chaplain general? Was he a kind of bishop lands possessed was entirely owing to the exertion of the over the other chaplains ? settlers. It was the roads, the harbours, the vicinity Col. KNOX said that when the War Department was to markets, and the operations of commerce, that gave reorganised, a pledge was given to Parliament that full value to land ; and although the price given might be explanation should be given of its expense and manage small apparently in relation to the price of land in this rnent. Tole had never been done ; and they were now country, still it by no means followed that that price paying treble the amount in the Commander-in-Chief's might not be at the time, and under the circumstances, department ; and he very much doubted whether the et sufficient representation of the then value. But with butinese was more efficiently conducted. There were regard to the promise of schools and hospitals, although in reality four secretaries—one more than stated _there was no doubt that Mr. Mantell held out, as he by the last speaker ; there was a military correspond believed he was authorised to held out, promises to the ing secretary. Parliament ought to insist on the pledge natives, yet he believed that nothing in the nature of a being fulfilled which was given before the war , contract could be said to have been entered into, and for with regard to the expense and distribution of the force. this plain reason, that nowhere could he find the slightest A commission ought to be appointed to inquire i n t o the approximation to a statement of what was the amount to whole business of the department. The relation o f the be expended for these objects. It was quite clear that a Commander-in-Chief sect the head of the War Depart general promise to provide hospital accommodation and went was not what it ought to be. (Hear, hear.) With schools, no fund being set aside fur that purpose, al- a military man at the head cf the department there was though it might be an obligation in point of morality, less chance of a collision ; but if a civilian filled that could hardly be said to have assumed the definite form office great difficulties might occur. The duties of the of a contract. But he must remind the hon. baronet office ought to be clearly defined. Sir Thos. Trowbridge that the power had been taken out of the hands of bad been apdointed head of the clothing board ; after the imperial legislature. The moment the control of , wards a change was made, and a gentleman was ap the waste lands passed into. the hands of the colonial pointed whose poly recomm,,ndation appeared to be that legislators, the colonial legislature took epon itself all he knew nothing of the requirem , nts of that department. those obligations. There was at the present time a sum Sir F. SMITH said that the duties of the department at the disposal of the New Zealand government for that could not be performed with a smaller staff purpose, but looking at the state of feeling among the Sir D. NORREYS referred to the state of the house white inhabitants, he should only he deceiving the hon. (there were only some 25 members present) as evidenc baronet if he were to hold out any hope that that sum 1 ing the culpable apathy of Parliament on matters of would be increased. j national expenditure. H e s t a t e d th e par ti cu l ars o f a Mr. LABOITCHERE, as chairman of the committee, I claim which had been tent in to the War-office for the whiled to say that the committee was in no way misled property of a deceased soldier, and said That a delay of by the evidence of Mr. Swell. No doubt the resolution six months had occurred before the matter was sealed. misted in the form it did to carry out some party tactics This was highly discreditable to the management of the in the colonial legislature. At the same time he regretted department. The most lavish expenditure was incurred that Mr, Sewell, who bore a high character both in pub- in the movement of troops, owing to the want of system lie and private life, did not give to the committee the ex- and good management. He did not blame the hon. and planation which he had since given. With regard to gallant general now at the head of the department for the general question, he assured the house he was this wasteful expenditure. not at all favourable to the prinMple of guaranteeing Col. NORTH expressed surprise at the complaint of colonial loans, except under very special circumstances the hon. baronet. It was possible, by application at the indeed. When he was at the Colonial -office many such War-,office, to o btai n at any time the fullest information appliettione were made, but he thought th e y ,as to the death of soldiers, and the property which they ought never to be acceded to except under very peculiar might have left. e . circumstance.. Sir D. NORREYS reiterated his statement. Mr. ADDERLEY said a member of that house ought After a few words from Sir J. TRELAWNY, to be exceedingly cautious bow lie made attack. on indi- Col. BOLDERO sa;d that the department instead of victuals. He averred that the house was not dec e i ve d b y . b e i ng t oo l arge was muc h too small. Three departments, the e v id en ce o f Mr. Sewell. He was well acquainted with the army, ordnance, and militia, formerly un d er th ree the subject, having been the recognised correspondent of heads, each responsible to Parliament, bail been col:welt• the colony in this country, and having been put in po s . dated into one ; and the staff was not sufficiently large. session of the whole state of the case. There were two At Weedon, for instance, where upwards of a miliion portions of the colony interested, and neither would con- had been spent in little more than a year, the accounts sent to the liberation of the lands of the other un l ess it s had never been audited, and it had now been necessary own were liberated also, so tl at thelgrant of the smaller to send down extra clerks for the purpose. All the ad aura would have been absolutely useless without the vantage gained by the amalgamation had been an in guarantee of the larger sum. crease of expenditure. In 1852-3 the amount of force Mr. FOPFESCUE qu it e agree d w ith Mr. Adderley under those departments were 113,697 men, and the ex as to the smaller sum being of no use to the colony. pence was under nine millions. Now the force was With regard to tho purchase of the native rights it should 133,000, and the expense was 11M,00,000/. Still it was be remembered that the purchase was of the primel right 1 inefficient properly to conduct the business of the de• is tracts in which there was no individual property a n d Pertinent, and he believed that it would be necessary to which were in a wild state. add another million to the estimates. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY conceived the explanation General PEEL said he would endeavour, when he which had been made was satisfactory. He was one o f prepared the text estimates, to meet the views of Mr. those who voted against the loan altogether, and he Williams. Instead of the staff being reduced, he was trusted that the house would take warning by what had convinced that it must be enlarged. (Hear, hear.) He happened in this case, refers ed to the case mentioned by Sir D. Norreys, and Mr. W. WILLIAMS was also oppoeed to these gua- said that nothing could exceed the anxiety of the deoart ranteee. meut to give the earliest and most satisfactory informa- Sir J. TRELAWNY withdrew his motion. tion in all such cases as that referred to. INDIA. Mr. W. WILLIAMS repeated his question about the Sir W. CODRINGTON said that the army being now three secretaries. very large—it was composed of at least 200,000 English General PEEL said the only answer he could give was troops—the number of recruits required yearly must ne- that the whyle of those officers were fully employed. cessarily be great. He should say that at least 30,000 Mr. WILLIAMS said it app eared there was also a teen would he requi re d t o mee t t h e a nnual ca ualtiew, military corresponding secret ar y. which were now unusually heavy, on account of the S:r W. CODRINGTON said the office was a most number of men we had in India. Now he must say that onerous one, and the duties were very satisfactorily pert the present system of recruiting was anything but satin- formed. • factory. Men were cajoled into entering the service, and Col. KNOX was satisfied that good order and method measures were adopted with that view which could net would materially lessen the labour of the War-office. be regarded as other than dishonourable and discredit- Cot. NORTH bore testimony to the efficiency of the able. The standard, which used to be 5 feet 6 inches, or military correspondiag secretary and others, and said 5 feet 8 inches, had been reduced to 5 feet 3 inches, i n that there was not one officer too many. order to complete the levies required for India ; but it The vote ens then agreed to. had since been raised again to 5 feet 4 inches. This re- 233,000/. for manufacturing establishments, milit try duction has had a prejudicial effect upon the discipline o f storekeepers, and berrack•oaastere. the service ; for instead of men from the agricultural Mr. NEWDEGATE said it appeared that the estimate districts, it had filled the regiments with recruits from for the manufactory at Enfield was 96,0001. or 97,000/., the lowest classes of the great tewne. He thought it instead of 55,000/. This was a great increase, be [loped would be well to revert to the old practice of ,raising the produce would be correspondingly large. The report particular regiments in particular counties and t)wne, of the committee of 1854 on the manufacture of small and identify them with those local ties. (The gallant arms bed recommended that, a debtor and creditor ac general read a long e xtract from Sir c har i„ N ap i er, count ehould be kept in the government establishments who w as a warm advocate of this plan of localieing, dif showing the cost and the pr o duction. He had long been ferent corps.) Again, he deeply regretted that motives anxious to see this account produced, and hoped that the of economy shoul I have p reven ted th e k eep i ng up of precedent would be followed in ether departments. At the military train. If there was o ne b ra nch of th e p er _ present the Enfield accounts had to be picked met from vice less efficient than another a t t h e b rea k ing ou t of a four or five different places in the estimates. It was too war it was cure to be this ; b u t th ere was none upon touch that the house should be expected to compile these which the safety and comfert o f th e arni y , more do- accounts. In addition to the large increase in the Enfield pended. (Hear, hear.) H e th oug ht it wou ld b e better expenditure, several extraordinary items had been intro to collect what remained and attach it to the camp at duced. In 1854, slier the committee had recommended Aldershott, where it would supply a much needed want that the expense for the establishment at Enfield should in the means of instructing the army. Again, he thought be limited to 34,0001., it hari amounted to 150,000/., the substitution of military auditors in the room of and had since swelled up to 270,0001. or 300,0001 The the commissariat was unfortunate. The commissariat expense of the ar tifi cers had increased from 39,0001. to officers were military men, and under the comaland of 84,000/. It had been said Vat the errpl imilent of ma. the general ; and their mode of keeping the accounts was chinery would dispense to a great extent with skilled simpl er an e less cos•ly than the new mode. For instance, labour. The estiwa'e was that 1,000 men, custiri the cost of keeping the accounts of the Ceinese expedi- 09,004, would produce 150.000 muskets in a year; but tion was 4,0001., whereas under the commissariat officer it turned out that with an expenditure of 81,000/,, enly it would only have been 1,300/. Again, he found that 50,000 muskets were produced. (Hear.) lie made no there was a credit in favour of this country from the char ge a t mintt the managers of the e stabirehment, but it lonian Islands amounting to 20,000/. a-yeer, Now it was e vident that nice , were still oblig-d to employ a had come to his (the gal ant general's) knowledge t h a t a great number of skilled labourers, whereby the aims duty As the in was actually exacted upon the wine consumed by trade were deprived of their best workmen. o li u e r soldiers, and erea upon the tunferats of our officers, epectiug officer at Enfield was the same, who inep cted thought that this dot ought to be ' . y removed ,or else the arms sent in from private establishments the latter that the proceed s should be expended in increasing the were p'aced et a disadvantage. The intention of this comforts of the soldier. (Hear, hear ) house was that Ehtfield should act as a competitor to the Mr. INIONSELL ref tined to ' a statement of Gen. Peel, gun trade. The head of the Enfield establishment was to the effect that faith must be kept at Carebalton, and that it would entail with th . e student naturally interested in its success. But it was not fair to the-arms trade that aperson in such a position should perm(' upon the public. Ile (Mr. Moe thought,a n considerable ex be the • i f the a- by the trade. Let the produced , ever, that faith might be kept with ' t s h% ) public •i t b h o n . n e - farms be inspected 'WSnotconnected 13,' come officer who was any cost, by giving the present pupils,_ when they 'a*rrivedt with Enfield. That was a fair request. The arms trade at a proper age, admission to the Woolwich Acadthought Ithey produced better article than the En byemy teat a pass examination, without suhjecting them to any field establiehtnent, and all they warted, if there was to competitive tett. (Hear.) Formerly, when the pupils Wt be cmnitetition, that that , competition should be a fair \W o olwich were boys, there might be no impropriety in one. H e th o u g ht th e coun t r y should not forget what three or four of there sleeping in one room, but now that was due to the gun trade and their exertions in times of they were young mon it wits most desirable that each difficulty and danger. should have a room to himself, and he hoped, therefore, M r . MONSEI,L said the return showed that Erifiehl that the gallant gentleman would ask for a small vote produced only 20,030 muskets last year. Tnis year it for tat purpose. would produce b e t ween 50,000 and 60,000. The cost Cul, KNOB.conourrei in the f.tvgestion of the ri,2 . lit of a xiele mal e a t E n fi e ld wa s under V., whereas those negatived without a division, and the vote was agreed to. The house then resumed. WAYS AND MEANS. The house then went into committee of ways and means, and a vote of 11,000000/. was granted. PRINCE EDWARD' S ISLAND LOAN BILL. The house went into committee on this bill. Lord S I'ANLEY said he had to propose a vote to the following effect : Thet her Majesty be authorised to guarantee the repayment of a loan not exceeding 100,0001. to the colony of Prince Edward's Island, with interest thereon not exceeding 4,0001. He did not in tend in introducing this subject to ask the committee to Wedge themselves either to the principle or the detail of this bill. He thought he was justified in saying that there existed on ail sides of the house an objection to imperial guarantees for colonial purposes, and in that objection he fully concurred, for he thought that the system was dangerous and embarrassing to the imperial finances, and injurious to the colonies themselves, for the colonies should understand that coexistent with self government should be self-support. He might be asked why he proposed to depart from the rule in the present case, and the rea-ion was, that the present ease was ex ceptional, and not likely to occur again. In helping this colony, they were only repairing an old wrong caused by the imperial Government, for this colony had been injured by an act of the Government of this country 90 years ago. In 1767 nearly the whole, or the greater part, of the soil of the island—nearly a million and a half of acres—was put up, he could hardly say by auction, but by public lottery in Landon, and disposed of in a single day, there being 67 lots of 20,000 acres each. The land was wanted on the condition of introducing settlers in the proportion of one to 100 acres, and there was also a quit rent, of from 23. to Os. for every 100 acres Improvi dent as were these conditions, Government did not even interfere to enforce them. Soon after the settlement of ,he colony the American war broke out, and it was held that the introduction of settlers bad become impossible, and they were consequently not introduced, and the Go vernment tacitly, if not in express words, dispensed with that part ()Vale bargain. Tee payments also fell into ar rear, and they were not enforced. The censequence was that nearly all the soil of the Island was vested in pro prietors, the greater part of whom were absentees, and who, from the conditions of their tenure, were placed in antagonism to the great part of the population. From that time up to the present the whole history of Prince Edward's I-land was a record of one long quarrel between the proprietot s thus iropos'.d on the colony by the Impe rial Government and the rest of the population, their tenants. At first various attempts were made to get the grants revoked, but tho-e attempts were not encouraged by the government of the day, but, on the contrary, a lar, e amount of arrears of quit-rent was forgiven in 1818, and at the same time the quit-rents were reduced. In 1830 a further change was made—the quit-rents were abandoned, and a land-tax substituted for them. About this time the colonists changed their tactics, and instead of endeavouring to obtain forfeitures they attempted to drive out the proprietors by imposing excessive taxation. During this period there was a reduction in the value of cee.lonial currency, so that is. 6d. currency was only worth ls. sterline, reducing in that proportion, of course, the rent of the proprietors. Responsible government was in )roduced into the colony in 1851, and it was felt that all parties had a right to complain that at that time no at tempt was made to settle this question. In 1855 the mat< ter was brought to a crisis. The colonial government sent home two acts, one imposing on these proprietors a rent charge for military and other purposes, and another giving tenants compensation for improvements. The machinery by which these acts were to be worked out was so unjust that her Majesty was advised to dis allow both acts. As to the first act, the Governor wrote home saying that though the measure was liable to the objection that it was a class tax, yet he had seen with regret the impossibility of getting any other measure which would effect the object contemp'ated, and he thought if it was not passed greater evils would follow. As to the other act, he advised the Government to give their consent to it. The Government wrote back in return, expressing their alarm at the mischief that might re oilt from the continued agitation of this question. His predeccesor in office had felt the danger of leaving this quits ion open, and he suggested that an amicable settlement should be come to by the lands being bought up. The amount of the loan necessary was 100,0001., which was proposed to be repaid in 20 years, the secu rity for that arising from land sales and general revenue. His predecessor had assented to that proposition ; but from some circumstances last year he postponed the bill but promised that it should be brought in this year. The revenue of the colony, which was 12,0001. in 1848, was now between 20,0001. and 30,0001., and the colony was absolutely free from debt, though the expenditure had pretty well kept pace with the revenue; but there was a small available surplus. Ha would not go into the calculaeion of the rental , . It was enough to say that the nst renal was 7,0001., a sinking fund was pro vided, and the debt would be repaid in 20 years. Under these circumstances, he trusted that when the time cam• for the prince is of this measure to be discussed the house would give its sanction to it. The noble lord con e uded by moving a resolution to the effect that her Ma he authorised to rive a guarantee for the repay ment of a loan of 100,0001., and interest, not exceeding 4 per cent. per annuea Mr. BLACKBURN said this was one of the legacies left to the present by the late Government, and was one which he supposed they would rather not have received. He trusted that the house would not agree to this resolu tion. No reason had been given why, if the tenants of these lands wished to buy up the fee-simple, they should not do it individually ; but it was proposed that it should be done by a guaranteed loan of 100,0001. Now, Ptrliarnent had objected entirely to the principle, and he thought the most simple way would be to nega tive this resolution. The resolution was then put and agreed to. CLIA.NCERY AMENDMENT BILL. The house resolved itself into committee on this bill, resuming at clause 9, which was agreed to. The remain ing clau-es were also agreed to, and the preamble amended. CHELSEA-BRIDGE ACT AMENDMENT. Lord J. MANNERS moved for leave to bring in ib bill to amend the act of the 9th and 10th of her present Majesty, chap. 39, relative to Chelsea-bridge. Mr. ALCOCK said he should take the opportunity's when the bill was in committee, to move to abolish the toll altogether. Leave was given to bring in the bill. S TANHOPE AND WOLSINGHAM RECTORIES. L rd H. VANE obtained leave to bring in a bill for the future appropriation of the tithe or tenth of lead ores in the parishes of Stanhope and Wolsingham, jo the county of Durham, belonging to the respective ra ters thereof, subject to the existing incumbencies ; and and for making other provisions for the endowment of the said rectories in lieu thereof, and for other purpose.. The house adjeurned at 5 minutes past one. Country Markets, COLCHESTER—MAT 8. Prices to-daywere as follow :—Wheat, white, 465 to 50 9 ! red, 42s to 465; barley, 36s to 438 ; oats, 24s to 30s ; bean* , Mazagan, 31s to 38s; middle and small, 38s to 425; peso' white, 42s to 44s ; grey, 42s to 449. Official Statement of the Quantities of Corn, &c in the port of London, from the following p May 3 to May 8, both inclusive, q receives )rtR, fros' 8 I 4 o p 15 Ha 41 1 A Colchester ~ Harwich .... 137 Leigh . Malden lii KIRKCALDY—MAT 8. Here, to-day, we had moderate supplies of all kilo , of grain. Sales ready, at last week's prices, for good P 9l. Pelts, and inferior a shade lower. Wheat. I ri Barley. Oats. I Bean O 4 First Second 4ss Od 35s 6d 27 s Od Os g 4 I Third 35s Od 30.3 Od I 23s 6d 1 0° COAL !ARK] Prices of Coals per ton a' U.-MAY 10. s. d.' Tanfield Moor l2 3 Taufteld Moor Bates 12 6, Howard's West Hartley_ the close of the market Wallsend, dos. 13 41, a zd ro d r y t i h i : l 4 „6, ° Benson 15 Eden 15 0 Riddell l4 0 , Eden Main l5 ° Framwellgate l5 6 Wharneliffe 15 6 Powell's Duffryn Steam 21 6 6 Haswell 17 6 Whitworth l4 Trimdon Thornley l7 " Tees Harvey ..... 6 14 'Hartlepool Hetton ......• 14 .17 . detton Wayne'sMerthyr .... . .... 20 0 ot, 59 ; sold 45. __.• Netherton l6 0 Vkrylam Longridge's Wst Hartley 16 0 Hastings Hartley 15 6 Bell's Primrose l2 0 1 Walker Primrose .....: 12 61 Wallsend, &a. Acorn Close l5 6' tiall 15 3 South Iletton .17 Lambton l7 0 South Kelloe 16 0 Stow tres l7 0 South Durham ....14 6 Ships at mark, BIRTHS. t tr• BATEMAN —On the 7th i n st., at Great George street, .i s A minster, the wife of Benjamin Bateman, Esq., °` daughter. NAPIER—On the 2d inst., at Naples, Lady Milliken NaPith of a son. ROUSE - On the 7th inst., at the Parsonage, Waltham A bbe(' the wife of the Rev. olla C. M. Rouse, of a daughte r ' MARRIAGES. li t• MOORE—STEVENS—On the 6th inst., at the parish ch ore a• Henry John, youngest son of Mr. Thoreaof Moore, of H.M.'s Cu=toms, to Emma, third daught er ,d' Mr. John Stevens, the Chestnuts, Marsh-street, Walt stow, and :33, Mark-lane. • PULLAR—TAYLOR—On the 10th inst., at St. Stephen% brook, Mr. John P,,liar, of Rye-lane, Peckham, to Sop' the third daughter of Mr. John Taylor, Pancras-lanes C l ' e3P' side. DEATHS, } f eet! AYRTON—On the Sth inst., at his chambers, 9, Bridge -o w' Westminster, Wm. Ayrton, Esq., aged 81, I , eats EWERY—On the Sth inst., at Eggingtou Hall, Burton - o u—r , Florence Gertrude, only child of Sir Henry Every , D ar ' ci . i ; EADY—On the Bth hut., suddenly, Josiah Philips 114 - Esq., of Wick Hall, Hackney-wick, aged 49. the GREY—On the 9th inst. in Eaton-place, Mary, widow of late Hon. Sir George Grey, Bart., K.C.8., aged SS. la KING—Ou the 7th inst., at Grove Lodge, Cambridge, 931 King, Esq., solicitor, aged 43. 0 LONDON : Printed and Published by KURD Y ° ' go. of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun O ffice : i nt/ 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the c" - of Xi(iiiitevz, Temlay, Nay 11, 1868,