The Sun. — London, England, 1858-05-04 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PILRLIAMENT. - HOUSE OF LORDS. —(YESTERDAY.) The LORD CHANCELLOR took Lis seat on the woolsack la five o'clock. SUFFERINGS AT CAWNPORE. In reply to a question by the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, asking whether there would be any objection to produce • certain document to which reference had been made as " not received," The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he thought the words " not received" had been written in India. He thought no good whatever would result from placing ac counts of individual suffering at Cawnpore before the public ; on the contrary, he thought further debate would oily create feelings inconsistent with good go- Tecurnent and good legislation. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY said that he should persevere until the document was produced. The Earl of ELLENBOROITH said he was uncer hid whether the document alluded to was really in aziatence. SECOND READINGS. On the motion of Lord REDESDALE the following bills were read a second time :—Aberdare Water, Merthyr Tydfil Water, Selkirk and Gateshead Railway, Folke- Soca Water, Ely Valley Railway, and Liskeard and Lore Union Canal Companies. GAME LAWS. A eoblelord asked whether there was any intention on the part of the Government to amend the Game Laws. The LORD CHANCELLOR said the subject not having been considered by the Government he could give no definite answer to the question. THE COURT OF CHANCERY. Viscount CLIFFORD asked the noble and learned lord on the wooleack, whether any further step s an were to be taken to expedite causes in the Court of Ch eery. R The :LORD CHANCELLO said the _ question of the noble viscount wa g so from m nera d l i l r y worded, directing his that he had been precl inquiries to any particular br wi n e l of the d Court thaof Chan- took cery. He, however, compl i a ned of the elays t place, mo re particular l y before the chief clerks at Chambers, ' b u t be must say that all the infor mation he b a d been able to collect did not confirm the noble lord's complaint. He found that instead of the business being conducted in a very dilatory and unsatisfactory manner, the contrary was the case, sa he found that the chief clerks phrsued and transacted their business in as expeditious a manner as possible. If the noble lord would point out A ny particular branch in which delay was unnecessarily caused, he would institute an immediate and searching inquity. Lord CRANWORTH must say that ha had no recol lection of the candid but not very courteous answer of his to which the noble viscount referred. With regard to the complaints made by the noble earl with respect to the delay in the chief clerks' offices, he must say that he thought them if not absolutely unfounded, at least grossly exaggerated. He had before now inquired into this matter, and the thing he found was that sometimes when parties wanted to proceed on a particular day the pressure of other business would not allow the chief clerk to appoint a Iday for taking up their case until a day Or two after the one which they were anxious to have. This must occur with any tribunal. It was im possible for any court having a large amount of business to transact so to be constituted that the suitor could, as it were, at any time ring the bell of the court, and say, " Now just take up my case." Each matter must take its turn, and beyond the delay which this necessarily created, he believed that no delay whatever arose. Lord CAMPBELL said that the practice of ?putting off causes from time to time was a very objectionable ohs. It was the thing which had been the ruin of the system of the Masters' offices. Lord ST. LEONARDS said that the practice in the chief clerks' chambers was by no means similar to the old practice before the masters. The intention of the Legislature was not to put the chief clerks in the situa tion of the masters, but to give them as subordina . :e officers to the judgeß, in order that the latter might with their aid do that which the masters had formerly done. The Court of Chancery should make it a rule that when it took up any particular matter it would not leave it until it was concluded ; but at the same time he bound to admit that from what he had seen of the chief clerks be had the highest opinion of their capacity and industry. Lord LIFFORD said if it could be shown that the statement upon which his complaint was founded was untrue he would at once admit that he was wrong in the position he had taken up, but in the absence of any di sect proof to that effect be should retain the opinion he had already expressed in this matter. The subject then dropped. ENDOWED SCHOOLS IN IRELAND. The Earl of CORK called the attention of the house to the report of the commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of endowed schools in Ireland. The com missioners were appointed, he said, in 1854, and the duty entrusted to them was to ascertain the state of the schools ; the mode of managing the funds that supported them, and the nature of the instruction given in the schools. Having made themselves masters of the entire subject, they were to report the evidence, together with the opinions they had formed in collecting it, to her Ma jesty. Subsequently to the appointment of the commis sioners difficulties arose in the way of pursuing the in quiry in consequence of the refusal of parties interested iu the endowments to admit the authority of the cam misoiioners, and an Act of Parliament was passed to enable them to carry out the investigation. After a most diligent inquiry, the commissioners made their report, which had now for some time been before Parliament, and although it formed no part of his intention to dis cuss its merits, he must yet trouble their lordships with a few extracts from it. The middle classes in Ireland were daily becoming alive to the importance of securing a sound administration for their endowed schools. They saw the benefits that resulted to the poorer classes from the working of the national system, and they were at a loss toconceive why some system of management equally efficient could not be devised for securing to their chil dren the full benefits of the endowed schooie. The noble lord then proceeded to quote largely from the report of the emnalissioners to show that the management of en dowed schools in Ireland generally was grossly defective —dot only as regarded the nature and quality of educa tion given by them, but also as regarded the husbanding and distribution of the estates with which they were en dowed. The middle classes of Ireland were anxiously waiting to see what course the noble earl at the head of the Government intended to take in consequence of this report, and he should be rejoiced to learn that the noble earl was alive to the importance of applying some remedy to the defects which the commissioner s pointed out. The Earl of DERBY said that the noble lord had cor rectly stated that the commissioners were appointed in 1854. They found it necessary in the course of their in quiry to appoint four assistant commissioners ; they had also a very extensive staff of clerks and short-hand writers, and the result of their labours they had embodied in four large folio volumes. To one of these, which con tained upwards of 200 pages, the noble lord had just called attention, but the others no doubt embraced equally valuable information, though of a somewhat ex tended nature, as might be gathered from the fact that the expense of printing it cost 5,2001, while the quantity of paper which the publication of it had consumed amounted to no less than 15 tons. (A laugh.) He did not know whether the noble lord who had-put this ques tion to him had found leisure to make himself master of this light reading ; but for himself, he must confess that he had not yet had any time to go through it. The re port was not that of the commissioners, but only of the majority, as it was only signed by three of them, while the other two absolutely and entirely dissented from all the conclusions to which their colleagues had come. Far be it, however, from him to dispute the labour, the in dustry, and the value of the inquiry, and he had no hesi tation iu saying, that in the management of many of the schools there appeared to have been great and unjustifi able neglect. The commissioners had succeeded in many instances in demonstrating the want of sufficient audit of the funds of these schools, and of proper schoolmas ters to conduct the educaton given in them. It was not desirable to enter then into . any discussion of the indi vidual cases of mismanagement : it was enough for the purposes of the discussion to admit that mismanagement did exist. But what was the remedy which three out of the five commissioners proposed for remedying the defects? The commissioners were the Marquis of Kildare, Dr. Graves, Mr. Andrews, members of the Irish bar; Mr. II: G. Hughes+, the late Solicitor-General for Ireland, and Mr. A. J. Stephens a member of the English bar. Mr ilughesandMr. Stephens were the dissentients from the conclueions at which the other three had arrived. The com missioners proposed to make a distinction in the school?, and to divide them into non-exclusive and exclusive schools. Willi regard to all non-exclusive schools it was proposed that a new board should be established on the principle of the National Education Board, and co mposed of persona varying in their religious persuasions . It was proposed that the board should have an office in Dub lin —a solicitor, an inspector, an audit department, with a paid treasurer, and various other officers, and that the charge of supporting the board should be thrown upon the Consolidated Fund. That was the first proposition. The next was, that all endowed schools, of whatever de nominatioc, provided they were non-exclusive, should be placed under the actual and, as he understood, t'le sole control of the new board ; that they should keep a register for the entry of bequests, and that all Courts of Probate should furnish them with extracts of such wills as left money for the establishment of new or the sup port of e x i sting schools ; that the management of ali papers c..nnected with the property of the schools and the )satrousge of the endowed schools vested in the lord lieutenant should be transferred to them ; and that the funds of the endowed schocls should be brought into one oornsrson mass and distributed by them amongst the differ/ant schools. These were some of the powers to be enj qed by the new board, they appear e d to be both extensive and e x raord Z rtal Y ary i , n . and dem an d e d th e most serious considerati on b -fore any prop t , sa o l could b e made to put them in force. lie did not re y t hat it alight not be found necessary to make 801:8e altera t ion in the constitution of these schools, but he would come to the conclusion , on the report of a majorityy of one out of five, to transfer the whole of these schools and all their endowments to a new board whichtobe He constituted with new staff of of fi cers, was a m atter didwould re quire very ser:ous consideration. know wh e . ther the new board was proposed to be separate from the national board, it would involve a serious expense, which it was proposed to throw on th country. He lad not as yet hade co nsolidated fund of this time to make himself ac quajoed with the contents of these bulky volumes which had only been laid on the table in February, The report was signed by only three commissioners ; one of the others dissented from the whole; the other, Mr. Hughes, dissented from the powers proposed to be given to the board with regard to mixed schools. Under these cir cumstances he thought he was not asking too much on the part of the Government that they should not be ex pected to come to a conclusion on a matter of such im portance, involving such grave interests, without the most serious and deliberate consideration. The improve ment of the middle-class education in Ireland was a mat ter of paramount importance, especially since the insti tution of the Queen's colleges had done so much for the education of the upper classes ; and under the national school system the primary instruction of the lower orders was so much improved, it was desirable that the educa tion of the middle classes should keep pace with those above and below them. With regard to the proposal of the commissioners, he fully admitted their labour and dil genes, but he must be allowed to refrain from pledg ing himself to adopt their recommendation. The report should receive the most careful consideration of her Ma jesty's Government and of the Government in Ireland ; direct e ec su t subject was awratiscounlaertoatwtehnicthiotal:eaLndord he Li w eu ou te ld na f n e t would l w g o r u eat pleasure if he could, either by following the recommen dations of the co mmissioners, or by means of the infor mation they had prepared, find any means of promoting objects of such deep interest, The Earl of CARLISLE said that the observation of the noble earl bad relieved him from the necessity of con tinuing the discussion ; but knowing what was passing in Ireland, he felt bound to say that it was impossible to estimate too highly the labour, perseverance, imparti ality, and candour of the commissioners, who had been selected by his predecessor in office (Earl St. Germains), Their report contained a mass of most useful matter, de serving the most deliberate consideration of the Govern ment and Legislature. He regretted that he had not had time to make himself master of its voluminous contents, but it was clear that the existence was proved of great and manifold abuses, which called fora remedy. The education given in Ireland, in the primary schools under the National Board, would compare with any thing in England, but there was a striking inferiority in the middle class schools. The details given in the re port showed that there were great facilities for remedy ing this defect, and he could only express a hope that no too narrow an adherence to the old forms of the establishment would be allowed to prevent them from dealing with these endowments in such a manner as would best promote and extend middle class education in Ireland. The Bishop of CASHEL concurred in the testimony to the character and labour of the commissioners ; but with regard to the report of the three, one of the other two dissented from it as vicious in principle and bad in law, the other, Mr. Hughes, declared the system to be wrong in principle and impossible in practice ; separate education he pronounced to be right in principle, and the only one practicable in Ireland. No Government, no people, would act on a report which was so denounced by two of the commissioners. The report divided the schools into two classes, exclusive and non-exclusive, and proposed to transfer all non-exclusive to the new board. By exclusives_ schools -they meant those into which children of only one persuasion had a right to admission ; but there were a number of schools founded by Protestants to encourage the teaching of the estab lidhed religion. Into these schools Catholic children were admitted, that they might be turned from what the founders considered error ; but by the definition of the report these would be held non-exclusive schools. They would, under the board, be devoted to mixed educa• tion, and the intentions of the founders would be frus trated. He admitted that there was great need of doing something ; but he conceived the great want was that of a good inspection. There was now a number of schools subject to no inspection, and there ought to be a staff of properly trained inspectors. The Earl ST. GERMAIN'S had no wish to prolong the discussion. He thought his noble friend (the Earl of Cork) and the house ought to be satisfied with the a.surance given by the noble earl (the Earl of Derby) that the subject should receive the consideration of the Government. Ho feared that an impression bad been made on their lordships that the education in all these schools was defective ; such was not the case—he could speak from personal knowledge of the Royal School of Armagh, which he bad visited, and which was not infe rior to any school in the country. He believed several others were equally efficient. The Earl of BELMOR E said that the schools of Eu • niskillen, Dungannon, and Armagh were in the most satisfactory condition. A number of others, however, were in a very inferior state, and the commissioners pro posed to improve them at the expense of the others. The subject then dropped. CHRISTIANITY IN INDIA. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY rose, pursuant to no tice, to present a petition from various religious denomi nations respecting the promotion of Christianity in India. He said the object of the petitioners was to clear them selves of imputations which had been lately made against them. They had been charged with bigotry, with vio lence, with a wish to make proselytes by force, and with a desire to obtain the aid of Government in theirobjects. They denied all these charges, and wished that this pe tition should be regarded as a sort of confession of faith. They wished to place it on record as an exhibition of their principles and objects, so that hereafter. when any such charges might be male against them, they could refer to this petition for their justification. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH would not say more with regard to the petition than that so long as he had anything to do with the government of India he -should adlkiere most strictly to the anniFint traditinnal policy of the British Government in India—that was absolute neutrality in matters of religion. He intended, so far as in him lay, that this neutrality should be real, that it should exist not only in the language of the Govern went, but in its acts and the acts of its officers. He had heard with satisfaction from his noble friend that the petitioners did not desire the aid of Government ; he felt satisfied that nothing could be so injurious to their object as even the appearance of sue!' aid they should stand by themselves; by individual exertions by private missio❑aries, they might have some success ; but he felt convinced that if it was for a moment sup. posed that Government extended any aid to them (he feared there was a belief that such was to some exten t the ease), the result would be the greatest danger to English interests i❑ India, and the utter destruction of all the hopes of the missionaries of religion. The petition was ordered to lie on the table. TRANSFER OF LAND BILL. The report of amendments to this bill was received. EXCHEQUER, BILLS (20,911,5001) BILL. This bill was read a third time and paseed. Their lordships adjourned at five minutes to seven. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—',YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following bills were read a third time and passed :--Birmingham Canal Navigation, Brentford Gas, and Garngad Road. The following bills wera further considered and ordered to be read a third time :—Corn wall Railway, Eastern Counties Railway, London and South Western Railway, Plymouth Great Western Docks, Stokes Bay Railway and Pier, and Trent Navigation. IIAINAULT FOREST (ALLOTMENT OF COM MONS) BILL. Mr. HAMILTON nominated the following Select Committee on Hainault Forest (Allotment of Commons) Bill :—Mr. Hamilton, Mr. Whitmore. Mr. Crawford, Mr. Deedes, Mr. Wu). Beresfard, and Mr, Jas. Wilson ; and five members to be added by the Committee of Selection—five to be the quorum. IRISH REVENUE POLICE. Mr. F. RUSSELL moved for copies of a memorial from the officers of the late Irish Revenue Police to the Lords of the Treasury, presented on the 23d day of March last to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with the accompanying statement of the present and of the proposed retiring allowances ; and of the Treasury minute made tbereon.—Agreed to. WESTERN BANS OF SCOTLAND. Mr. BRADY gave notice that he should to-morrow put a question to the Lord-Advocate relative to the Western Bank of Scotland. THE INDIAN PRESS. Mr. MAGUIRE gave notice that he should to-mor row presenf a petition from the Madras Presidency rela tive to the Press Act. APPOINTMENT OF MAGISTRATES FOR THE BOROUGH OF CANTERBURY. Mr. JOHN LOCKE (S out h war k) gave not i ce th at h e should on Friday call the attention of the house to the recent appointment of justices of the peace for the bo rough of Canterbury. __r M ERCANTILE LAW OF CANADA. M . VANCE asked the Attorney-General if his at tention had been called to the present state of the mer cantile law of Canada, effe w o h . ich sanctions preferential assignments of d e b tors ' without affording any means of redress to the general body of their cireditor4 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he was unable to afford any infor m ationonthe subject. It was one ex clusively within the cognisance for Eg ofthe Canadian Ldegniso lature. The Attorney-Generalmeans of taking the fi na l step towards redressing any such grievance as that alluded to. SANDHURST AND WOOLWICH. Mr. LYGON asked Viscount Palmerston whether the minutes relative to the recent alterations at Sand hurst and Woolwich were submitted t o , and sanctioned by, the late Government or not. (Cheers.) Lord PALMERSTON said his noble friend Lord Pantnure showed him the draft of a regulation to form the new arrangements referred to, and, generally speak ing, it seemed to him (Lord Palmerston) to be very right and proper. It involved two material paints. One was that young men who wiehei to become competitors for examination in the scientific branches, instead of regis tering their names at the office of the Secretary of State for War, were to register them at the Commander in-Chief's. The other was that competitors for com missions in scientific branches should be from Sandhurst instead of those educated elsewhere, which was Bug- Bested with a view of impr wing the education at Sindburst, with the understanding that if the change was objected to comp, ttors should be taken one ha f from Sandhurst, and cue half from e'sewhere. With re- , Bard to the part of the question omitted, w bether tip - minute bore any minute of his (Lord Palmerston) in his own handwriting, be was unable then to give an answer, but he had no doubt his right hon. friend the Secretary f r War (General Peal) could best answer the cluestine. (Hear, hear.) The BONDS (2,000,0001.) BILL. e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the second reading of this bill. SileG. C. LEWIS said—Sir, in rising to offer a few remarks on this bill, I am desirous at the outset to ad vert to a report which has been industriously circulated, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 4, 1858. THE SUN, and which a short time ago was mentioned on a public occasion, to the effect that the late Government and my self in particular as having charge of the financial de partment, had left the national finances in a state of disorder and uncertainty, and bad bequeathed an in heritance of financial difficulty to our successors:. lam bound to say that the right hon. gentleman opposite when making his financial statement gave no sanction to that report, and the numerical statement which he sub mitted to the house with respect to last year's finance -vas quite accurate—so that as regards him I have no complaint to make. But, sir, lam deisirous to remove from the mind of any gentleman who may have received such impressions, any erroneous ideas that may exist on the subject, and therefore I shall, with the permission of the house, call attention very briefly to what was the state of the natio na l fi nances at the period when we exchequer, x l oh t e m q u a e y r., be li said thati d th o a f t t thhee Englishaim of a w were quitting h e anellor of offi thi c e e, lord mayor or the Roman Consul, is generally to get over difficulties by temporary expedients, and leave the permanent solution of them to their successors ; but it was impossible for me to know last year that the House of Commons would, by a vote of censure on the late Government, cause my retirement from office a few weeks previous to the time for making my annual financial statement. The state of things that existed I hoped to deal with myself, and therefore I cannot see what foundation there was for attributing to me the design of handing over an inheritance of difficulties to my successor. (Hear.) But I say further thht I did not leave any difficulty that did not arise out of the state of the law, and that the finances for the year were in as satisfactory a state as could have been expected from the statement I had sub mitted. (Hear.) I estimated the expenditure for lest year at 65,474,0001., and the actual expenditure was 70,378,0001., showing an excess of 4,904,0001. The excess of revenue over my estimete was 1,416,0001. and during the year the amount of debt paid off was 3,741,0001. Therefore, with the excess over the esti mate, and withithe excess of expenditure over the esti mate, and without the large sum paid for the remission of debt, there was only an excess in the expendi ture of the year of 2,000,0001., which two _ millions were taken by me out of the balances in the exchequer. But I think I shall be able to satisfy the house that the state of the balances in the exchequer was satisfactory, and that the sums found there by the present government were ample for the purposes of the ensuing year. In April, 1855, the balance in the exchequer was 3,949,0001. but then in that sum was included a million of ways and means bills in anticipation of the revenue of the succeed ing quarter, which were defrayed out of that quarter, so that the actual balance in 1855 was 2,949,0001. In 1856 the balance was 5,600,0001. ; in 1857, 8,668,000/., and on the Ist April last, 6,667,0001., which the house must see was a sufficient sum for the year. (Hear, hear.) Tne information I received on leaving offioe was that no de ficiency bills bearing interest would be required for the April dividend, and I now learn that none have been found necessary. Well, sir, if the expenditure of the past year, including the payment of debts, was defrayed by the revenue, and if a sufficient sum was left in bal ances at the end of the financial year, the house must, I think, come to the conclusion that, so far as the finances were concerned, the late Government left nothing in an unsatisfactory condition. (Hear, hear.) I now pass on to the plan of the present Government, and with regard to that plan I would say that it appears to me, that so far from the right hon. gentleman opposite being obnoxi ous to the charge brought against him on a former oc casion of being too adventurous, of departing too far from the received and established maxims, he has on the present occasion shown himself almost too prudent, too cautious, I might almost say timorous. Serpit huini tutus nimium timidusque procellm. He has made an arrangement with the view of avoiding a present difficulty, which I foar may with good reason be anticipated to create greater difficulty hereafter. In the first place, he has stated to us that he is agile to pre sent a picture of reduced expenditure for the present year. I will admit that his budget exhibits in one sense a diminished expenditure, inasmuch as he has been able —and I rejoice at it—to somewhat diminish the army and navy estimates of his predecessor. I give the government al possible credit for that reduction, and no ono rejoices more at the reduction than I do myself. But when the government talks of a reduced expenditure as compared with that of the preceding year, let us see how that stand. The consolidated fund charge for last year was 1,777,0001. Iu consequence of the probable expense of compensating the proctors—an expense, let me be allowed to say, which was pressed on the late government by the House of Commons, which was an expense which solely emanated from the feeling of the house—in consequence of that item the charge this year will be 1,900,000/. The estimates last year, except the supolementary vote for the militia, were : Army, 11,893,0001; this year they are 11,750,0001. Navy list year 9,172,000/. ; this year 9,860,0001. Civil estimates last year, 7,895,000/. ; and this year the right honourable gentermao sets them down at 7,000,000/. So that the total estimates last year were 30,230,0001. ; and this year they are 30,510,0001. ; showing an increase in the pre sent year of 280,0001. That increase must be reduced if you add the supple mentary vote for the militia—whether it will be required or not this year. I cannot tell—but leaving out that, there is an increase this year of 280,0001. This compa rison, which is taken from the right hon. gentleman's own figures, shows that he is not justified in saying that there will be any reduction in the expenditure of the pre-ent year, and we do not know yet whether a time may not arrive for increasing the present estimates. While such are the prospects with respect to expendi ture, let us see what we are to expect in the way of taxa tion. The right hon. gentleman's plan is shortly this : he takes off too millions of taxation, or rather allows it to expire, and substitutes for it a somewhat precarious 800,000/. I call it precarious, because the 500,0001. which he expects from Irish spirits is doubtful, and I doubt very much whether the stamp on cheques will make up the 800 0001. (Hear, hear.) It is true that we shall lose only one of these two millions during the present year; but nevertheless the ultimate loss will be two, for which he only provides as a suh-ititute a precarious 800,0001. Theri be prnpo es to meet the Exchequer Bonds, which were to be paid off this year, by creating a new loan, and to postpone the war sinking fund of one and a half million. Fir the Exchequer bonds he proposes to issue two millions at 33 per cent., payable at any time not exceeding six years ; so that the right hon. gentleman will have the power of spreading his payments over that period. He has not stated the mode in which he pro poses to proceed with this new loan, but I understand he has made an arrangement with the B ink of England for the gross sum. Whether that is the most convenient course, or whether the pre-ant holders were not entitled to some consideration and an offer to renew their bonds on certain terms, is a paint which, no doubt, the right bon. gentleman has considered, and until we hear his reasons for the course he ha , t dzen, I ?dull rot press him further on that point. But it is to be borne in mind that the problem which the right hon. gentleman professes to have solved will recur next year. There will be two millions falling due then, and one million the year fol lowing, and therefore, unless he means to enter into a steady course of borrowing for these bonds, I do not see how his present budget can be defended, especially as the loss of the income tax, which is only one million this year, will be two the next. The next point is the divi sion of the sinking fund. I proposed that division deli berately and from a conviction Oa: it was the only safe mode of arrangement. The Exchequer bonds stood on a totally different footing. They were in the nature of a permanent debt with a certain period appointed for their payment, and when the money is due the parties have to be paid unless they wish to renew. The nature of a sinking fund is wholly different : that is a compul sory arrangement, made beforehand, by which the public faith shall be kept by the redemption of a certain amount of the debt annually, The right hon. gentle man, however, can perhaps convince himself that by some self-acting process —by some system of compound interest, the enormous debt incurred during the French war may be liquidated I dare say hon. gentle men have read the plan proposed by Mr. Pitt for re ducing the national debt by a sinking fund, and I need not remind the house how illusory that plan proved to be—how every trace of it was swept away from our legis lation, and how all that remains of it is an obligation that when any surplus exists, it shall be applied towards the reduction of th e na ti ona l debt. (Hear.) If the finan cial position of the nation resembled that of a private in dividual—that was, if the expenditure had to be regulated by the income—a sinking fund, such as is provided by the Act of Parliament, would be a reasonable means of extinguishing a debt. But that is not the case, The system that must necessarily be pursued by the nation in dealing with its finances he fiat, to take the expendi ture, and then adapt the income to it. The consequence is that there is not likely at any time to be any consider able surplus applicable to that purpose, and unless the house is prepared to make it obligatory upon the G. - veronsent—unless the ways and means are specially pro vided year by year to form the sinking fund, we must make up our minds quietly to submit to the perpetuity of our present debt, and satisfy our consciences with aunt ally paying the interest without reducing the principal. (Hear.) I need not remand the light hon. gentleman that in a year when two millions of Exchequer bands fall due, there would be very great difficulty in discharging a million and a-half of your sinking fund. (Hear.) But when the Act of Parliament was passed that difficulty was not foreseen, and I think under the circumstances the right hon. gentleman's proposal for postponing •the sinking fund is reasonable. But what I object to in the present scheme is that he makes no attempt to pay off the two millions of Exchequer bonds, either wholly or in part, and that he postpones the war sicking fund just as if no obligation existed to pay it. It has been often said that the national debt of this country is of so gip., - tic a nature that it is in vain to make any attempt to pay it. off, and that as the aggregate sum so far tran— cends the powers of any ,generation to deal with it, we must be cmtent to submit to what has become an inevit able destiny, (Hear) L. tit then' be borne in mind, that the capital of the debt is but a nominal li=ability, which the Government of the couo'ry will never be called upon to discharge—rt stands in the shape of N certain amount payable as perpetual annuities. But I would call attentio n to the fact that if money is bor rowed at 5 par cent., a equalßurn to the whole capital is paid off in the shape f interest 20 years. Where it isberrowedatin the course cf a lower rate—(as is the case of the national debt of this takes a longer time to p ay off in icnotuuretsret7 a )--.af coursel to t the total capital. Still wit hi n a limited period equal odtineust be the resu!t, and supposing a d e bt stands at three and one-third per cent,, which is the averag e rate for the ra tional debt, you pay every thirty y ears in interest a sum equal to the whole amount. I think, however . ver large the sum may be, it is not so great tLat some efforts might be made. (Hear, hear.) I now come to the view t k „ tql by the right hon. gentleman as to the national obligation to reduce arid finally to extinguish the income-tax. I see. fess I have treat difficulty in understanding the theory, for which the right hon. gentleman contends as to na tional engagements of this nature, If I understand him correctly he holds that an act of parliament that calls upon us to pay off 2,000,0001. of Exchequer bonds is not a binding engagement—that enact of parliament that requires to pay out a million and a half as a sinking fund is not a binding engagement; but that it is competent for parliament to take in hand the revision of both those engagements. When, however, he comes to the remis sion of taxation, then he rays the act of parliament is a national engagement which we are bound to respect. I would ask the house, in considering this question of na tional engagements, to recollect the necessity of balanc ing the income from year to year with the expenditure, and that in a country whose taxes can be so little be pre determined, every year that question of balancing the expenditure with the income must be solved. Now, what I want to know is, are we to lay it down that all engage ments of thi, sort for the remission of taxation are to be held sacred, while engagements for the payment of debt are to .be looked upon as absolutely worthless ? I quite agree that engagements made by act of parliament to discharge nations! debt are always subject to certain conditions. I admit that Parliament never can tie up the hands of its successors, and that it is always open to the house to reconsider engagements of this kind that it may have entered into. lam not the advocate of irrevocable and unchangeable laws—that is a fallacy which has long since exploded—but if this doctrine of holding to na tions' engagements where it is for our immediate con venience we should do so, and treating them as valueless when to fulfil the obligation would tend to our present inconvenience—if this be the principle on which we are to act it ought to be declared. (blear.) The right hon. gentleman, in applying this doctrine to the finances of the present year, says we are under a sacred engage ment to reduce the income tax, and by allowing the law to take its course to diminish that impost from 7d. to sd. in the pound. Rut when we are thus called upon to give effect to a solemn national engagement, perhaps we may take a more commonplace—a less dieeolving view of the amount of benefit that will be derived by the taxpayer from this relief. Now let me ask, what is the extent of relief which that change will afford I During the war the income tax was 16d. in the pound—equal to 61. 13s. 4d. per cent. On the return of peace the late Govern ment, not acting in obedience merely to popular de mands, but in accordance with what they thought the interests of the country, proposed to take off the war 93. which was equal to 3/. 15s. per cent. Everybody will see that that was a substantial relief, and it was felt as such by every class of incomes, upon whom the high rate of the war income tax pressed with great severity. The result was the income tax of last year was 7d. in the pound, or 2/. 18s. tf. ph cent., which for an income tax cannot be considered oppressive or severe. Well, the right hon. gentleman takes off 2d. in the year—one mil lion of which only comes into effect this year—he takes off 16s. 81. per cent., and so reduces the 21. 18e. 4d. to 21. is. ld. per cent., the whole amount cf relief afforded this year being, however, only B+. 41. per cent. I say that that is an amount of relief that will scarcely be felt by those • who pay the income tax. A reduction of 16+. Bd. per cent. is not an amount that would be seuibly felt by persons of large means, who do not gene rely calculate their incomes with such striot accuracy as for so small a change to make any difference to them, and on the other hand the persons with limited incomes— those with 2001. or 3001. a year—the 16+. Bd. per cent. per annum is so small a sum that it cannot be said to afford to them any sabstantial relief. (Oh, oh, and laughter.) Therefore I say that the right hon. gentle man, in his arrangement, by not paying the Exchequer bonds either wholly or in part, but applying the money to the reduction of the income tax, has violated an im portant principle of finance without giving any substan tial relief to the taxpayer. (Hear.) There is another important question involved in the right hon. gentleman's plan. He denounces the income tax as unjust, and re gards it as a national obligation that that tax should expire in 1860. But we know nothing of what may be the state of our finances in 1860 ; we do not know whe ther our Expenditure will admit of our dispensing with 5,000,000/. of taxes, which is the amount at which the income tax will stand. Is it probable that there will be a surplus revenue of 5,000,0001. to enable you to dis pense with that act ? (Hear.) There may be some few 'people sanguine enough to suppose that we may be in a position in the year 1860 to deal with that particular problem. I hope it may so prove ; but it may turn out that there is no surplus, and then if it is to be under stood that we are bound to abandon this 5,000,0001., the produce of the income tax, the question will arise what other source of taxation eon can resort to obtain an equal sum ? The income tax falls for the most part on the wealthier portion of the community. (Hear, bear, and Oh.) It is easy to get up here in an assembly of gen tlemen and denounce the income tax in the strong terms which the right hon. gentleman thought fit to employ. That is a very easy mode of getting up a cheer; but before that tax can be abolished, and before you can substitute for it 5,000,0001. of taxes levied upon the general consumption of the country—and therefore taxes affecting all classes of the community--it will be come necessary for you to address assembles of a different character—assemblies of persons who will no doubt meet together, and which will contain amongst a large number who do not pay the income tax a very few who do pay it—as this house contains very few persons who are exempt amongst a large number who are liable. That is a consideration I would press upon the notice of the house, before they take a step which may have the effect in a future year of fettering their deliberations, and prevent their taking that course which they may then judge to be most conducive to the interests of the country. I would call attention for a moment to a brief comparison founded upon the right hon. gentleman's own figures for the present. year of the direct tax.: ion of .the country—with a view of seeing whethet it is really advisable that we should pledge our selves to the abolition of the income tax. According to the right hon. gentleman's statement, the produce of the customs and excise, which form the great bulk of our indirect taxation, will be 41,500,000/. This is the amount of our indirect taxation. Let us now lock to the direct taxation, and see how very small is its com parative amount, and that after all that has been said about raising a large part of our revenues by direct taxation from the more opulent classes. Tne customs and excise produce 41,500,0001. ; the land tax, 1,200,000/. ; the ass e ss e d taxes, 2,000,0001 ; the in come tax at the reduced rate, 5,000,000/. ; nicking to gether 8,200,000/. &Hedy spesking that is the total of our direct taxation, and if you take from that the whole of the income tax, all that will remain is 3,200,000/, There is another class of taxes which I class with direct taxation, though they differ in some respects from the preceding. The-u are stamps, probate duty, and succession duty, amounting to 7,550,0001. Then there is the revenue from postage, which in some respects partakes of the character of a direct tax, though it is in Het payment of service rendered —that is calcu lated by the tight bon, gentleman at 3,200,000/ , making together 10,750,0001. But, adding this total to the re.her, they do not equal one-half the amount of the in direct taxes. (Hear,.) Well, sir, under tussle circum stances, I confess it seems to me that the house ought not to come to a distinct pledge with regard to the period at which either the income tax, or any other tax, shall cease. Ido not wish to beunderstoeda+ expressing any opinion against the cessation of the income tax at any time when the interest of the country shall permit its abolition, lam ne advocate for the income tax All I desire is that when the time arrives for discussing that suhjsct we shall be free to deal with it, and not find our selves tied up by a deolaration of the right hon. gentle man's by which the house is to bo held bound. (Hear.) I for one refuse to allow my judgment to be interfered with and fettered by the declaration of the right hon. gentleman ; and wish to hold myself perfsc ly free in fu ture years to exsrcise my own judgment upon questions affecting the revenue and expenditure of the country at he time ; and I hope the house will join with me in re fusing to be bound by any test of that sort which may be thought to have been imposed upon them. (Hear, hear.) The question cf the probable remission of the income tax must depend upon the view which the house might take of what should be the amount of the public expen ' diture. It is for the house to rtgulate that expenditure, and I must here remark that whatever proposition the government may bring forward at the commencement of the session far the different public establishments, when the estimates have been once adopted by the house they cease to be the estimates of the government, bat become the votes of the house, and it is in vain fur hon. gentle man t a get up and attempt to separate their responsi• Wit) , from the responsibility of ministers. It is the House of Commons that passes the votes, and nothing can be more unjust to the right hon. gentlemen opposite (the government) than to hold them responsible for the ex penditure involved in the estimates atter they have been voted by the house. It is with the house that the re sponsibility ultimately rests, and whether before in quiry or after inquiry they sansaien the expenditure it , s n-t competent for them afterwards to blame the go vernment. (Hear, hear.) Well, sir, having had the ex• perience during the last few years which is gained by sitting en the opposite bench, and having the respou sibi ity of balancing the revenue and expenditure of the country, I feel bound to say that I have witnessed with some surprise that in the present state of parties—in the absence of any strong feeling, of any great public demand out of doors—in the absence of any compact party organisation in Parliament, it is the Go vernment that has become the greatadvocate of economy, and the different sections of the house that have taken upon tiler:selves te be the advocates of increased expen diture. lam bound to say that the great pressure now brought to bear on the Government is not, as formerly, for the diminution of expenditure, but comes from vari ous quarters, and is in its nature personal and sectional, and is directed to an increase cf expenditure. (Hear.) It is a pressure which it is very difficult for any Govern ment to resist; and the house will never become fully conscious of its responsibility in this respect until the problem is solved of equalising revenue and expenditure. What the house is too much pledged to in the present circumstances of the country is the increase of expendi ture, and at the same ti•ee the reduction of taxation. (Hear.) That is a process which of course cannot go on very long, unl-ss you hive recourse to the ruinous sys tem of peace leans. I admit the right hon. gentlernae the (Mance dor of the Exchequer has not hinted at any such course ; but tutees the house is prepared to have recourse to a system of peace loans, increased expenditure and reduced taxation cannot go on very long together. When I urge that the pressure in the house was in the direction f increased expenditure, I only do justice to those ger,- !lumen who are the authors of that pressure when I tay, that it is very rarely that it is made without a vie w to ol,j , ct, of a publc and ussful nature. The desire for the improvement of each branch of the public service which thee connected with it entertain, and the desire for the attainment of some particular object of a public character which each Person has in view, naturally induces him to seek the largest grants fur that puapose. How fie qge s siy do we hear in this house suggestions for improving the contrition of the sold;er—the improvement of barrack ac commodation—and what num er ous plansare brought for- ; ward for the benefit of thearmy and the extension of our' military force, all of them involving a large increase to the public expenditure. lam aware that those suggee- . ~:~L 0 tieing and proposals are none of them dictated by personal motives, bui entirely from a sense of what is required for the public interest. Similar plans are brought fate ward as respects the navy. Then we have suggestions for promoting :education, for encouraging seience and art, for improvements in our public edifices, for making electric telegraphs by land and by sea—in short, time would not suffice for me to enumerate the different pro jects which are urged upon the Government from time time to time, and which in some instances they are com pelled to adopt, and which necessarily add materially to the aggregate of the public expenditure. If this system is to go on, anl the Gevernment are to be charged with backwardness, and with being influenced by a niggardly spirit it they venture to interpose an obstacle on the ground of expense, and the hous e as bas been stated on some occasions, decline to support the Government in resisting such demands—then it will bs impossible to make those reductions in taxation which the right hon. gentleman opposite speaks of as necessary. (Hear.) The same rule applies in regard to those rues of Colonial and Indian policy which are ad vocated by many gentlemen in and out of this hon=e. If we are to extend cur armies in those dependencies—if we are to go on enlarging our empire, and wherever there are a few British merchants we are to send ships to protect them—in the event of any dispute between them and the natives—and if we are to maintain nearer home that spirit of foreign policy which the house has recently shown so strong an inclination to support—(oh, oh, and bear, hear)—if we are to be perpetually menacing our neighbours, and if at the extremity of the world we are always to be prepared with fleets and armies to afford protection to British interests, it will be in vain for Go vernment to attempt to reduce expenditure to that point which will admit of the abandonment of an im portant source of revenue. (Hear, hear.) I did not intend to trouble the house at such length, but before I sit down I would again urge the house to con'ent itself with a settlement of the financial affairs of the present year. Hon. members can scarcely forget the experience of the previous year, when, after the estimates were prepared, the Indian revolt broke out with such intensity as threatened to reverse all our calculations. (Hear, hear.) I believe that the assurances which, at the close of the session, were given by my right hon. friend (Mr. V. Smith) with regard to the pressure upon our finances caused by those Indian disturbances, have been realised (hear, hear)—but we gave those assurances with great reserve and great mistrust in our own judgment, and without any certainty that they would be justified by the result. Had events taken another turn it might have been our duty to have called Parliament together in the course of the autumn or early in the winter, to have laid before them the increased estimates, and asked their assfstance in making far greater military prepara tions than those we have been compelled to resort to. With our enormous empire, and the extent to which the energy and enterprise of Englishmen is carried, and the extent to which that enterprise is protected and en couraged, it is quite impossible at the beginning of any year to say with confidence what will be the limit of the expenditure even of that year, much less what may be the state of things two or three years hence. There fore I trust the house will not enter into any prospeo tive engagements with respect to the taxation of future years. (Hear, bear.) Ido not ask them to keep up a particular tax, but merely to abstain from entering into any rash obligation, and to leave themselves, when the proper time arrives, free to exercise their discretion in dealing with the question according to the circumstances as they then exist. (Cheers.) Mr. GLADSTONE thought it would have been more for the convenience of the house if there bad been some notice of the discussion of this question. He entirely concurred in the endeavours of his right hon. friend to draw attention to certain serious consequences of the practice now unfortunately on the increase, of view ing the house, not as a curb upon expenditure, but on the contrary, of bringing its influence to bear as a stimulus to increased expenditure. But when censure was thrown on the house, he must say, as one of those whose duty it had often been officially to resist motions for an increase of expenditure, that Governmects were not without blame in the matter, as they sometimes offered to the attacks cf this house a feeble resistance which scarcely carried with it the air of seriousness, and they had thus permitted the house to usurp the functions of the executive. The right hoc, gentleman n , ticed a rumour that the state of the finances was not satisfac tory. As to let year, he (Mr. Gladstone) hat hoped that they had had enough of the subject ; but while he did not think it was convenient to discuss any matter in that house on the grounds of rumour—(hear)—he must point out that the state of the finances was not a matter of rumour, bat a matter of figures, and he for one ad hered to the opinion that it was anything but satisfac tory. (Hear.) In speaking of the reduction of the debt, the right hon. gentleman had included the 1,100,0001. F r the redemption of the Sound Dues, It was a mis take to call that a reduc ion of debt, It was a payment of a charge arising in the course of the year, and the money was borrowed from the expenses of the war. To call that a reduction of debt was to use a form of lan guage calculated to mishad. These were matters of fact which there was no occasion to enhance or exaggerate, and which it could be no great advantage to discuss. When his right hon. friend said, "Don't let us make these engagement binding and unconditional," he (Mr. Gladstone) could not help feeling how strongly the warning applied to the right hon. gentleman's own en gagement to pay off under the name of Sinking Fund one million and a half per annum. It was true that Mr. pew., - , .1.1m fainutiB Would be his best title to the approbation of posterity, bad been abandoned, but there was much more to be said for that project as invented by Mr. Pitt, than as now revived. If the theory was one which would not bear the test of practice, at least Mr. Pitt had never seen it fail. But whet was to be said of those who having seen it fail, and having heard every eminent man give te , tirnony against it, bad three years ago constituted it afresh ? (Hear.) How had it operated ? Why, this year the want amounted to 250,0001., and the Minister of the Crown told them it was impossible to fulfil the engagement. The right hon. gentleman did not appear to have suffi• cient confidence in his own plan to go to a division. (Hear, and a laugh.) He was sorry to hear the right hon. gentleman say that the only means of reducing the debt was by the means he suggested ' • for there wa s no doubt that the debt had been redu ce d very considerably dur ing the last 30 years. Did he think that the system which he designated as alone practicable would pay off half as much in a similar period ? He hoped the matter would be brought to a fair issue. (Hear, bear.) The house ought to have an opinion one way or other. If the precut system was to last, let them declare it by taking some positive step. If they considered that it wa' bad, let therp bane done with it altogether. If 1,500,0001. a year was to be paid in this manner, of course the fund balder had a great interest to keep up that system. The objections originally raised when this arrangement was proposed gained fresh strength so long as it wa , con tinued, but not allowed to become efficacious. (Hear.) They were bound to pay off 1,500 000/ Was there any possible condition of affairs in which the income being sufficient all but that amount, the Chancellor of the Ex chequer would come down to the house arid ask for an increase of 1,500,000/. to eay off the debt ? Would any conceivable Chancellor of the Exchequer do so ? (A Would the right hon. gentl e m an d o to hi mse lf i f he ef the Exch e q uer w h en t h at state of thingsgh.) were uc shO b t a ida e r i i i Se r ? (Hear, and laughter.) He had not dens justice to the ordinary sinking fund, as in most years there was, under fair circumstances, a surplus, the application of which tended much to reduce the debt, It appeared to him that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was under no engagement as to the Exchequer Bonds ; except to reimburse the holders there was no obligation to pay it this year. He proceeded to review the c,rcum stances under which they were made redeemable in 1858. They were put out as redeemable in this year as the most convenient mode for the ehigencies of the time, but that was not intended as a promise that they should be paid this year. As respected theinconae tax the right horn gen tleman had over-seated the doctrine of covenant or com pact as alleged by those who were in favour of the reduc tion. No person thought that the house was absolutely pledged to the extinction of the income tax in 1860. The doctrine of his right hon. friend was not that the income tax was a great instrument of taxation, which might be properly continued for great objects of public policy, but that it was a convenient part of the ordi nar y financial system of the country—(hear. hear)—but that was not the ground on which they obtained the income tax from the people in 1842, when it was enacted ; in 1845, when it was re-enacted ; and in 1853, when it was extended to Ireland, and carried down to a lower class, (Hear, hear.) A directly opposite language was held, and Parliament and the country were told that they were asked to pay an income tax because it was a con venient portion of the ordinary resources of the country, ' but because certain great ends of policy were to be at tained by it. (Hear.) First, an active reconstruction of our commercial and financial system; and, secondly, the maintenance of the honour and interests of the coun try in an European war. (Hear.) Beth objects had been attained, and if they were going to change the in come tax from a special tax to as ordinary tax, to be applied to the common expenditure of the country, it ought not to be done in the dark. It ought to be web understood. And before making it such, the country ought to have an opportunity of giving its verdict whe ther or not it would pay taxation on that footing or not. (Hear, hear.) The income tax was first put on twelve or thirteen years since, and hart been kept up, to a certain extent, for the benefisial remission of taxation ; but that was not the case now, and he asked them what had been the history of the paper duties, the wine duties, and marine insurance duties of late years. (Hear.) The pro cess of remission of taxation had been completely ar rested, and without saying one word about its resump tion they talked of the continuance of the income tax, because it was a convenient mode of taxation. (Hear.) Not only bad the changes for which the tax was imposed been stopped, viz., for benefitting the consumer and the general body of the people, but they had begun to travel in an oppo its direction--(hear)—by the reimposition of a duty on sugar of 10s. per cwt. and of Is. per pound on tea. His right hon. friend the member fur Radnor had favoured the house with an immense number of figures to show that a great extent of indirect taxation bad been retnitt-d, but he had omitted to state that two million, were last year added to the permanent taxation. (Hear.) It was right, he thought, the house and the country should have a clear ureters and ng upon the subject, and if the latter were of opinion that the income tax should be permanent, by all means let it be paid ; and be was bound to say that he did not think the house had shown that degre e o f person:al seiffshness as a body to the in come tax, ought to txpo.:le it to censure from the course it might purue in reference to it. There were many oh jectfotis, however, to the income tax being made a per manent tax. One of them was a moral objection—(hear) —and he expressed his belief that it did more to corrupt and demoralise, not from the accident of its levy, or the fault of those who levied it, but from the essential .nature of the tax itself—(hear)—and the other objection was, that so long as it was a permanent tax so long it would be vain to talk of economy and effective reduction in expenditure, from its being so productive a source, and an engine so convenient and easy to levy. (Hear, hear.) It was, therefore, in consequence of his belief that our scale of expenditure admitted of considerable reduction that he was of opinion the tax should come to a speedy termination. (Hear, hear.) He thought the house were justified in entertaining the expectation that the right honourable baronet the member for Radnor would have told the house in the course of his remarks what he would have done if he had been the Chancellor of the Exchequer. (Hear, and laughter.) He, however, went very near it, but he did not quite come up to the work—(laughter)—but he (Mr. Gladstone) thought some thing material was to be extracted from what he did say, viz., that the reduction last year of the war income tax was the deliberate act of the late Government, and was not surrendered under paltry pressure. (Hear.) He was extremely glad to hear the statement repeated, be cause it was one that had been impugned in various quarters by one hon. gentleman, a member of the late Government, in his addiess to his, constituents in the autumn, who, wh en challenged 'IV hie constituents why the army and the establishments the country were not in a better state when the mutiny broke out, answered " How could we have them in a better state, when the House of Commons, Mr. Disraeli, and others, would not allow us to keep up the war income tax. (Hear, and laughter.) His right hon. friend had now put an extin guisher on all those rumours, and it could now be no longer said that the extinction of the war income tax was a proceeding extorted from the late Government by the Parliament. But what would the right hon. gentleman have done if he had now been in office? It appears to me if he had raised the income tax ls. 9d., he would not have reduced the Exchequer bonds, but have kept up the sinking fund ; but if the income tax bad been raised by him to 10d. in the pound, he (Mr. Glad stone) doubted if there would have been a surplus. He, however, adhered to his opinion, that it was the duty of a Minister and Parliament to have a clear surplus, and to keep in view that the only time to pay off a debt was in a time of peace. He did not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer was justly charge able for failing to liquidate the Exchequer bonds, for which he had not been supplied with a single farthing, and still less ought the charge 'de/Rifest him to proceed from those who had induced the house to raise and ex pend for other purposes the money applicable for their reduc ion. (Hear.) Mr. CARD WELL admitted that dm Chancellor of the Exchequer was perfectly justified in postponing the war sinking fund. He further admitted that Govern ment were not bound to pay off the Exchequer bonds, but he doubted whether the course proposed with regard to them was a prudent one. Their-, payment was post poned till a titan when we shall have lost the amount of the income tax. Would they then be able to meet it ? They were laying the foundation for future Chancellors of the Exchequer to reimpose the income tax, for if they did not pay these bonds out of that tax 'hey would have to pay it out of new taxes, checking the prosperity and .injuring the resources of the country. Mr. T. BARING defended the much-abused sinking fund, which was the honest wish to pay debts and not to saddle them on posterity. The Charicellor of the Ex chequer had necessarily courted popularity by remitting taxes and leaving the debt to take care of itself. Unless the diminution of the debt was Made obligatory it would depend upon the conduct of Government how we dealt with it in times of financial ease. As to the question between direct and indirect taxation, the wisest course was to divide taxation between the two, so as to check consumption and embarrass employment. Mr. BRIGHT—I wish to make a few observations upon the subject under discussion. I did not hear the whole of this debate, but what I did hear of it is of that confused character which one might have expected from the dilemma in which we are placed. (Hear.) One side of the house casts the blame of placing us in our present position upon the other ; but the truth of the matter is, that we have been spending a great deal too much, and the difficulty is how to raise money to meet the demands which have in consequence arisen. (Hear.) There is e contest between the rich and the poor, and, as is generally the case in this country, the poor go to the wall. (Cries of "No, I should be very glad if I could agree with the gentleiiien who cry "No ;" but when you maintain a large ando permanent tax upon articles of import which are mliedtop with the comfort of every cottager's family in the kingdom, and you re duce a description of tax almost touching nobody who has less than 1001. a year, I cannot help thinking that people out of doors who read this debate will come to the same conclusion as that at which I have arrived. The fact is, we are endeavouring to do that which is impos sible—trying to render a' Very effeevy taxation easily borne. (Hear, bear.) Such eihtskiAtion never was and never will be easily endured. e-War, hear.) You mustshift it from one shoulder to - finottCrteh The rich arid the powerful will do all in their power to shift the burden from themselves, and it will rest, as in this country is the case, mainly upon the great masses of the population, whose incomes are small, but whose consumption of taxed ar ticles is in consequence of their numbers very consider. able. It has been said that much of the difficulty in which we find ourselves in reference to this question of taxation is to be attributed to our foreign policy. (Hear.) I concur in that opinion. We are pursuing a foreign policy which every man among us condemn in so far as it has been acted upon by a past generetion—(bear, hear)—and which will receive at the hands of a future generation an equal share of condemnation. Allusion has been made to the combative spirit which has been raised among the people of this country ; but whenever that spirit has been raised there have always been statesmen ready to take advantage of it for the purpose of placing themselves upon that (the Treasury) bench, or, iLakeady there, to main tain their position upon it. • .Wfittere had two wars since the particular time to which3.oi:eht hon. gentleman has referred, eon of which wweetregun, was carried on, and was ended without, so far as laetiow, one single word of information being given to this house--(hear, hear) — and, more, I believe that war Was brought to au end a the time it was because the Minister stood in some fear on account of a memorable debate and division which had taken place in this house in connection with another war. That war the house condemned —the Chinese war and the Minister thought that perhaps he might be trespassing too much on the patience and credulity of the country, and therefore he huddled up one war at least, that he might have only the other to manage with the - country and Parliament. But that Chinese war the House of Commons bas con demned, and that condemnation has never been reversed. (Hear, hear.) It stands upon our records now; and although, from circumstances which few men will look back to with satisfaction, a Parliament was returned apparently to reverse that senteece, yet no man, Minister or member, has dared to ask that Parliament to reverse that sentence. (Oh, o h 1) L et the h on, gentlemen who cry "Oh !" try to do it. (fh.ar.) We do not know now whether wseare at war with Miele or not. I understand that a celebrated i ndividual e ilAtiya of that country, has been taken prisoner acid is now in India. Is he a Pri soner of war, or has he been taken away merely as a curiosity ? (Laughter.) Ido not know what the Govern ment of Lord Derby is doing as to that question They at least are not responsible for entering upon that war —(hear, hear)—but they will make themselves respon sible if they delay one single hour to bring it to a con clusion. We are in that country, to my mind, as I solemnly believe, making the English name hateful, and making the spread of our civilisation and our religion utterly impossible in that portion of the earth. We have no object, for every man admits we can't have ter ritory. We gain nothing but trade. Trade surely will be better carried on with a nation with whom we are at peace than with one with whom we have fraudulently and upon false pretences plunged into war. There is one other point c inflected with our expenditure to which I wish' to refer. I never yet have seen a Minister since I have sat in this house who emeltany real attempt to diminish the expenditure of the country. To take one case. Ido not know the .44 amount of the navy estimates, but I know they are some millions in excess of what was voted a few years ago. I suppos e my bon. friend the member for L am b et h (Mr. W. ‘Villi atas ) could tell me to a sixpence--(laughter)—fur I believe these vast estimates weigh upon his mind, and discourage him precisely as they do me. Now, no country has a fleet that can measure itself vt , te that of this oountly except France. Does anybody who site there (pointing to the back Opposition benches) deny that the fleet of Russic cannot compare with ours ? Au-trig and Prussia have no fleets at all of any consequence. ' The United States have one ship of the line and a few frigates, bvt not one ship of war in 10 compared with our navy. I should like to know why it is necessary thatthis country shoule maintain many hundred vessels of war of all saes, when there is no other country which has a fleet to oppose to us, ixeept that country which is our nearest neighbour and closest ally, and which, we are told, is only anxious to be on terms of amity with us ? Hon. gentlemen may t link the amity of nations is not always to be relied upon, and although I do net doubt in the least the desire of the Eniperor of the French t i be upon terms ef friendship with this country, yet I never had myself the slightest sympathy for that alliance which has existed between France and England. Amity with all nations, justice and courtesy to all, but intimate and political alliances with none. Tbat is my policy, and I believe it is the only policy in these matters which f cars Minister lead to good. If you ask the French iahe o Marine why his estimates are so large, what w you He will tell you be is building great ships, which he be lieves will never be of the least use, because England ie building great ships, which every sensible Englishman also knows will not be of the slightest use. He will say, France has almost bo colonies, very little foreign com merce as compared whh this country, teat France has no pretension whatever to a great nevy ixcept her near nesse to England, and the policy E gland in alwah maintaining an enormous nave. Supposing that a mi is.. er if this country, darieg,to grappl - with this queeti• n were to say to the Ithirperer of the French, instead c f squab's-Flag about the Ste z Canal, or, I will not say be traying, bet differing from him upon the question of the Denuhian Principalities, or nog , tinting about some let - tee matter the decision of which sitter way will Lot affect any man iu England —suppose, instead of that, a Mini. rcv re to say, " Why are we thus always plae ing at beggaring one another- with millions spent upon our navies, while our populations are suffusing merely that we may hold our fists in each ther's face ?" I ask the house in all seriousness, wool i it not b e bet ter, instead of eo . eg en for the next five yeare, as we have for the last fiv e years, b uilding vast ships, which a'l good men hope will never be used, and which all :tensible inen know are not heceseery for the purposes of our security —would it not be better to ask the French Government, "Is it not passible to relieve your Exchequer and our Exchequer, to relieve your p eeple ane eel' people from tie pressure of this vast taxatiw , welch we art constaralY compelled to wring from them ?'' W hy not try some such course as that ? You have a million of paupers in England and Wales, you have others in Scotland and Ireland, you have colonies be- yond sea which are easily reached for a few ponnde, and to which your population as been draughted off year after year. Every man who goes to tho,e colonies re pudiates your policy, repudiates your debt, and thanks Heaven that et last he has found a country where in d retry can have its reward, and where men ceiling them selves statesmen are not wing every engine of Govern ment to deprive him of the produce of his industry and to diminish the comforts and independence of his family. And you, landed proprietors of England, remember that however many of your countrymen may emigrate, your acres remain, and you will have by-and-by a different tone in this house after another reform in Parliament. Your succession duties will be overhauled, and will not be got rid of so easily as at present. (A laugh.) Your property.tax which you are assisting the Chancellor of the Exchequer t o th row over w i ll come back to yon,f i and a come back in an increased proportion. Rely upon it, ;. -71 r the course which we have pursued for some years has been foolish and wicked. - By casting unfair-burdens - • • upon the people you will create a spirit of discontent and. • disaffection, and when they have the power, as they shortly will have, to lay taxes upon those who have spent the money, you may depend upon it the poor will not always go to the wall and the rich will not always escape. (Oh, oh.) Those are unpalatable truths. (A laugh.) I don't like the income-tax any more than you do, but I know it is the duty of Parliament either to diminish our expenditure or to maintain the income-tax or some other tax of that kind, and that as we acted in a foolish spirit in involving ourselves in this expenditure, so we are now acting a cowardly mad immoral part in casting off the burden of expense from our shoulders partly upon the great body of consumers now living, but mostly upon our poste r ity com i ng a f ter us. (H ear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER —The right hon. gentleman the member for Radnor has ac cused me ofintroducing a cowardly budget. After listening to the objections of the right hon. gentleman, I think I may venture to answer him in the words of the same poet whom he has quoted : " Dum vitat humum nubes et inenia oaptet." The right hon. gentleman first found fault with the state ment I made that there had been a reduction in the ex penditure to the amount of 800,0001., and, by comparing the estimates of the present year with those of the last year, he.proved, according to the manner in which be placed the question before the house, that the statement on my part was not authorized. But, sir, I never said. that the saving was on the estimates of this year as com pared with those of last year ; all I said was that by the arrangements we proposed there would be a reduction in the expenditure to the extent of 800,0001., and I think I can show to the house that that statement was correct. In the estimates laid upon the table, the army and navy, we made a reduction of 400,0007., and in the other estimates, the miscellaneous and civil service esti mates which have been prepared show a like diminution of 400.0001. as compared with last year, together making the 800,0001 I mentioned. The right hon. gentleman has stated the circumstances under which I proposed not to interfere with the decline of the income-tax this year. He has declared that our compact, as he .calls it, with reference to the income-tax was not more strict than the engagement we had entered into with regard to the war sinking fund. Now, all these engagements are expressly Acts of Parliament ; technically speaking, the engage ments are the same ; but what I wish to bring before the house with regard to the income-tax is that there were considerations of policy connected with that tax which it was impossible to avoid taking into account. I may remind the house that there had been objections, of a serious character urged against the incometax in its present form, and that it was impossible to avoida grave consideration of the subject. (Hear, hear.) Those ob jections did not come from the " gentlemen of England" —not from the circles of the wealthy and the opulent ; they came, on the contrary, from professional men, from traders, and from the humbler classes of society, who complained, with reference to the incedence of the tax, of its injustice, its inequality, and its inquisitorial cha racter. (Cheers.) These are not objections, I repeat, that have been urged by persons of opulence and wealth ; these are epith e t s th a t h ave not been used except by persons of humble and difficult fortunes; and the whole clamour raised against the income-tax has never proceeded from the opulent and elevated classes of the country. It was to meet those complaints that there have been so many plans propounded with a view to recognise some difference between the incomes brought under the operation of the tax, and that a Committee of this house sat to consider the subject for a considerable period of time. I retain the opinion that it was impos sible to keep the income-tax in its present form as a permanent feature of our financial system, and I think I did not misunderstand the feeling of the house and the country when I recommended that coarse which I hope the house will ultimately sanction with respect to it. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman the member for Radnor (Sir G. C. Lewis) says, if the course which I have indicated is pursued we shall find ourselves in 1860 with a loss of 5,000,C00/, of taxes, and with no substi tute for it ; but in that argument the right hon. gentle man took no account of the falling in of the annuities which have been referred to in the course of.this debate. I think it is of the utmost importance that the house should have a clear opinion on this subject, and if they have a clear one that they should act with firmness and consistency. There is no greater fallacy than that of supposing that because you do not approve of the income tax yen are therefore opposed. to all. direct- taxation. (Rear, hear.) Approval of a fair amount.of direct tax ation is perfectly consistent with disapproval of the manner in which direct taxation is at present raised. I believe it is of the utmost importance on social and political considerations of the highest character that the incometax should not be retained as a permanent feature of our financial system. (Cheers.) But if in any year circumstances of great difficulty and emergency should arise, no one for a moment would pretend that this tax was not to be had recourse to as a source of supply. (Hear.) I shall say nothing with regard to my proposi tion with reference to the war sinking fund. I resisted that war sinking fund with the two right hon. gentlemen who have addressed the house to-night, and, as every one knows that under present circumstances the effort to retain it would have been perfectly idle, it is un necessary for me to say a word on the subject. Now, on the point of the Exchequer-bonds, I admit there is great difference between our engagements to redeem the Exchequer.bonds and our engagements with regard to the war sinking fund, and I did with the greatest regret propose to the house that some post ponement of the settlement with respect to the Exche quer bonds should take place. The house has come to a distinct conclusion on that subject. They have placed at my disposal the necessary's= of 2,000,0001. in order to redeem those bonds ; and now, as the right lion, gen tleman says that the house has a right to know what we have done on the subject of those Exchequer-bonds, and has accused me of some want of courtesy in the matter in not giving the holders of the bonds the alter native of rereming them, I will tell the house what I have thought it prudent to do. The house permitted nee to raise a sum of 2,000,0001. by Exchequer bonds, payable at a period not later than six years from the date of such bonds, and the interest not to exceed 31. 10i, per cent. I shall obtain an advance immediately of 1,000,0001., payable in 1862, and at 34 per cent. That, under the circumstances of the case, is a very moderate and fair rate of interest, because, although it is possible to get money for a short period at 3 per cent., when you come to a period of six years the case is very different. I have also made arraneements at the end of the year to call for another 1,000,0001. at the same rate, but I have a lively confidence that circumstances will not render it necessary for me to call for that 1,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) I say, under all the circumstances of the case, and with due humility, when these imputations are thrown out so freely of being disregardful of the public faith, that that is a prudent, and, if carried into effect, will be a very successful arrangement. (Cheers.) I have confidence in the state of the revenue because, as I showed the other day, there has been during the whole of this year a considerable rally in its chief breeches. During the last quarter a deficit in the principal articles has been absolutely changed into a very considerable surplus on the estimate of the Chancellor of the Exche quer; and ptrhaps it wilt be interesting to the house if I tell them what is the state of the revenue for the first month of the present quarter. I will state the revenue in some of the p'rincipal articles in the month of April, 1857, as compared with the corresponding month of 1858. Tnis statement is confined to the Excise, because, aFthohgh . the account for the customs is extremely favourable, the large amount paid for tea duty in April last yea, ,would render it an unsatisfactory subject of comparianiti-; but really there is an absolute increase in the month. ? Ih the month of April, 1857, when we were in the very height and flush of our prosperity, and before the dom. mercial crisis we have since experienced was dreamed oft the amount received from the Excise was 1,366,00i01. For the month of April this year, after having passed through the ?ate commercial cela.mities, the amount watt 1,602,000/ (hear, hear.) For stamps, th e rece i pts i n A eri1,1857, were 484,000/.; in April, this year, 578,000/. (Hear, hear.) Then, there is en increase in the land and assessed taxes, taking the same periods, of from 663,3001. to 663,000/.; not a large increase, but important as show ing the tendency of our revenue to improve. (Hear, bear.) The increase in the amount of the customs is also of the most favourable kind, and we have therefore a right to assume that the striking indications of a rising revenue, of which I have spoken, are not of a fleeting and evanescent character, but arise from the essential resources of the country. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman did not end his speech with any motion to indicate that he meant to oppose the second reading, and therefore I will n t anticipate anything so disagree ,hie. (Hear, and a laugh.) The hon. member lox Bir mingham made some otoisrvations respecting taxation watch Ido not think are just. (Hear, hear.) Ido not think it is the main object of this house to remove texa• tion from property to labour. (Hear, hear.) Ido not think there is any desire in this house to evade the fair burdens wl3ich it should bear, and if this were a fitting opportunity to go into the subject in detail—and it is impossible to form a just opinion regarding it withou* going into detail—l could show that the position of ate hon. gentleman, that the necessary consequence of oar system is that t :xat ion must rest on the great bulk of the population whose h.cornes are small, is a position which le, cs n n t den.onArate, and that, on the contrary, I will rot say lh.' great bulk, hut the grea t er part of the taxa- t,o ' n raisedin this country is a burden on those who are c'lied people of property and the m ass o f t h e popu l a ti on who, whether as dotnes , ic servants, or in other capacities, actually depend upon that property. (Hear.) Thisi* not the (pportueity or the occasion to enter into the discuNe but I could not listen to such an expression of oeietoo on the pert of the hon. member for •Birming• - ham without at least entering my protest against its velidity, and rx,..res..ing toy readiness whenever the ocoa. ESon offers to grapple with him on that subject, and caw blish to the satisfaction of all unprejudiced men that ill i Th El im ni,' Th