The Sun. — London, England, 1860-03-23 00:00:00

MPEBIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.) The LORD CnANeELLex took his seat on the woolsack the usual hour. THE GREAT TASMANIA. T arl of ELLENBOROUGH asked a question of 1p .• ble lord the First Lord of the Admiralty relative to : - .ores on board the Great Tasmania transpot t ; he should iso like to know whether stores had been sent to India for troops going to China. • The Duke of SOMERSET said the Admiralty were no .ray responsible for the stores on beard the Great Tasmania. With respect to the stores for the troops going from India lo China, there was great difficulty in providing stores that 'could stand so long a voyage. There was, however, a large !tore of provisions at Hong Kong that would supply the roops.up to October next. The Government were sending out stores every month, and, from the steps the Govern • meat had ta - k - 61a he assured the noble earl there was no need of anxiety. The'Earl'of ELLENBOROUGH said the noble lord had not stated the number of troops for which stores had been calculated. ThZi`Duke of SOMERSET said about 10,000. • :PRIVATE BUSINESS. • - --- On the motion of Lord REDESDALE, the Euu Brink Drainage Bill was read a third time and passed. , THE EASTER HOLIDAYS. The'Earl of DERBY begged to ask the noble duke the question he had given notice of, with respect to the ad journment of the house for the Easter holidays. The Duke of NEWCASTLE said it had been found that it would be absolutely necessary for their lordships to sit for the first two 'days of Passion week, on account of two important money bills cominc , down from the other house, but after Tuesday he proposal that the house should adjourn. until Tuesday, the 17th of April. QUALIFICATION .FOR OFFICE ABOLITION BILL. Lord TEYNHAM moved the second reading of this bill, Which proposed. to. do away with the declaration at present enforced upon persons about to enter the public ser vice and corporation office.. The declaration at pre sent required .was to the effect that " I, A B, in the presence of God, do solemnly profess, testi)r, and declare, on the true faith of a Christian, that I will do nothing in the office of to, injure the Protestant Church, as established' by law in England." By this declaration a person holding office, however much he might wish for the abolition of • church . rates, which were thought by some likely 10 weaken the Church,was not at liberty consistently to sign a petition with such a prayer. Lord CHELZISFORD opposed the bill. It had been observed that the bill had passed the House of Commens without opposition, but he should say it had rather slipped through the house unobserved. Several hon. members with whom he was acquainted were totally ignorant of the nature of the measure. The declaration had been in troduced by the late ,Sir R. Peel, when Secretary of State for the Home Department, and the object of it was to ob tain from every Dissenter taking office a formal recognition of the ,predominance of the Church of England. The declaration had been introduced into the Test and Corporation Act, and it was the opinion at that time that, had it _not been done, there would have been an overpowering majority against it. He objected to this bill on three grounds ; first, that it'would disturb a settled,question ; secondly, that the noble lord had not pointed out any grievance that required a remedy ; and thirdly, that , it would remove a stumblingblock out of the way of certain dissenters who wished to injure the Church of England as by law established. He moved that tha bill be read a.second time that day six months. The Duke of NEWCASTLE supported the bill, as the law was in a'most confused and anomalous state at the pre sent moment. At present numbers of persons entering the public service did.not make this declaration, but with re-- apect to corporate offices it was different, because each can didate was compelled to go before re magistrate and make the required declaration. The mode of making the declaration was most irreverent, and he thought that the time had 'come for its abolition. The Earl of DERBY said it was intended by the declara tion, intronced at the time of the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts, that there should be on the part of per sons taking office under the Crown a recognition of the Established Church being a national institution. He thought the proposed alterations should not be lightly or carelessly made. • The annual act of indemnity only applied to some of these offices, and to others only under certain circum stances. His objection was this, that this was one of a series of measures industriously brought forward by parties anxious to destroy the power and influence of the Church, and to place tho Establishmert upon the same footing as dissenting ;mete. He hoped their lordships would never sanction such a meastve by their authority. (Hear.) The LORD CHANCELLOR . thought that all oaths and declarations that were unnecessary ought to be repealed. So far from there being more hostility to the Church of England than formerly, he believed that it never stood higher in the hearts and affections of the people of Eng land, and that was accounted for by the greater liberality of the Church at the present day, and the expressed desire of eminent and distinguished Churchmen to free Dissenters from all civil anctreligietas disabilities. He wished to return to ancient times, when no oath was required but the oath of allegiance. He thought the object of this bill was commen dable, and trusted it would have th.eir lordships' support. After a few words f7oin Lord RED.ESDALE, Lord TEYNHAM briefly replied. He called upon their lordships as patriots to free them from this declaration, and pass the bill. - Their lordships then divided, when this numbers were— Content Not Content Majetity The bill was accordingly rejected. The Medical' Acts Amendment Bill was read a third time. . 44 -23 The Packet ServiCe (Transfer of Contracts) Bill and the Consolidated Find (24,500,000) Bill were severaVy read a third time and pissed. Theielord - slup4 then wijourned. HOUSE OF • COMMONS.—(YEsTEEDAY.) • The SvtgAi;.r.n took the chair at' fonr NEW MEMBER. Sir W. HEATircOrrEfobk the oaths and his seat for the University of Oxford. . . .FRIVATE BUSINESS. The following bills vayo road a.t,iiirti.titno and passed:— Cheshire Midland 'Railway ; Glosaop and Marple Bridge Road ; ,London awl N04,-Westeru. Railw a y (No. •1); Marple New Mi ;Ind . Hayfield Junction Railway; Midland Railway _(Burton-upen-Trent Branches' and Deviations • Midland - Railw4y (Rowsley and Buxto n li nes ) ; Mi r fi e ld Gas; North Bntish and Peebles and Jedburgh Railway Companies ; Oxford, Worcester, and Wolverhampton, Newport,'Abergavenny, and Hereford, and Worcester and Hereford Railways Oxford, Worcester. and Wolverhamp ton and Severn - Valley Railways; Stockport and Woodley Junction. Railway. The Murton on the Water Railway, the Scottish Drain age and' ImproieMent Company, and the Manchester and Buxton Road Bills were read a second time. Mr. FORSTER moved that .the, minutes of the evidence taken before the banitnitte on the Chester and Holyhead Railway Bill'in 'session 1841, and the reports of the Ad miralty, including till report of Mr, .Eendel, their ene•ineer, on that iireii7ed to the committee on the Vale of Clwyd Extension Bill.—Agreed to. • "PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATIONS. Mr. EOWYEA gave. notice that on Thursday next he would move f(ir leave to bring in a , bill to amend the law' relating to privilMO.Communications in certain cases. THE INDIAN ARMY. Colonel .SYKES.gave,notice that he would ask the Sec retary of State for India whether it was intended to abolish the regular army in India ; and that be would also ask for certain ref:lung in. respect to the Indian army. SHIP' BUILDL G. Mr. JACU SON 7 inquired if t he' G oVernniont would lay on the table.the re p ort . o f the commission on the subject of ship building for the navy and 'in the dockyards? Lord C. PAGET stated that he was prepared to lay on the table the report in question. : THE •FRANCIIISE. Mr. ORIF,ETII asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, IdliethiT it.waS intended that th o V o t ers at a rent and upwards, whose' rates are now compounded for by their landlords, should' haVe the opportunity at the next registratibn of qualifyipg themselves as voters, by taking on themselves pfe payment of rates for the past year, or otherwise: as maybe arranged'id effect such.object Lord J. RUSSELL said he would consider whether a clause to!rneet the views'of tho hon. member could not be introduced into the Reform Bill.' PAUPER REMOVALS. Mr. LANIGAX asked the President of the Poor-law Board whether he had any objection to produce (and, if not, when he would.lay upon thelable of the house) copies of the order of removal made, and the examinations taken by the magistrate, and of the notice served - or sent by the poor-law pffi c i a l s o f St. Pancras to the 'M a les Board of Guardians previous to the removal of the poor woman Mary Carter to Ireland ?.. Mr. VILI:TERS^ said that the matter did not properly come within, his Province... He had no official report on the subject, and was cililig-ed to rely on the accounts which ap peared in the newspapers ; but, acting on these, he com - municatedwiththe Poor-lap' authorities of St. Pancras, and it appeared that the ease alluded .to was of a very unusual kind. A cemmission had been directed to proceed to the place whefe the 'unfortunate woman resided, and it appeared that she made the same statement that she had. previously done. Rd had called on the Poor-law authorities to make an official : statement, anal .the hon. .member 'could inspect the documents relating to the matter ; or, if he preferred. he would be furni,:d4 with copies:of the same. ST./NIPS. ON NEWSPAPERS, Mr. "WB&TERN asked the Chanerllor Of the - Etcher - Auer whether the proposurto'abolish the stamps on newspap ers would amily tomewspapers• to be . sent ' abtOad ; and, if so, whether such newspap er em be sent with a,penny adhesive stamp, or . - NecTuld he liable to the-book rate' of foUrpence ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that on Monday nett howould make a . statethent on the subject. TEE TIMBER DUTIES. _ . Mr. A.l)4M r aiked . the'Cllttic7ellor qf the Exchequer 'Whether, in ocitt,eqftence of . the repeal of' the timber duties, any drawback.would be allowed on ships in the builders' hands, eitber finished or In'process of building ? And, fur ther, whether Any drawback would bp. Allowed on timber which had ,paid the'dtitY licit had not yet passed into con sumption> • • Thu CRANCLIZOR of:the EXCHEQUER replied in the negative. S. ~,,,,.. SAVINGS' BANK Mr• • h •-, ICo U p tT lii . ,,, a ,: -. , .1- 42 :d. the ' Chan . cellor of the Ex scahveignu;sr I ; v it h- . 41( i t n ,, , } L i ( ' ' et . ci . cm . e . rycli tot Imp Z in L T .:it bi 11. respectiQg. excited much inkiest in the main' d ti s ire ot su e hieet was one that large .portion of the connatinity: The CHANCELLOR of the tXCIIEQ'UP; said the bill in question would' hot.-be brought before the house without due notice /King given to h members I'I✓I3BIC BUILDINGS. . _Mr. PL LL moved that Government maul-A of the day shall take ~ i rive'lonce of uotices of motions. upon Th urs d ays instead of Fri. - lays. . Mr. BOtTV.ERIE sfrQngly, objected to the motion, and expressed f hop e that the hon. member would not presshis motion to a div.sicAi. After solp i e di f yrclssiou, • . Mr. , PAIDItr .sai;l that he would yield, though reluc tantly, to-the •opinion of the house, and not press his motion. , - , Lord PI►LMETS:TQN. said -that neither on the Minis terial nor on the other side of the house was' there any de sire but to l prontote* the pregregg :Of 'public' business. He Would auwost that any motion on this subject should be confined to the sepision in which it was made. He agreed With those who, .thought •it • would. be unjust to interfere with the- right of hon. members to bring forward I FiV SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING ; I MARCH 23, IMO. any question for the adjournment of the house on Frahy. I norshire spoke of the inconsistency and tself-conirScliction I into which - public men were drawn by the pressure of (Hear, hear.) - , . ' DARTMOUTH ELECTION. - ‘ events, he (sir J. Pakington) asked whether, in the con- Mel LYGON moved that the minutes of the eviden tee duct of the noble lord with respect to the commercial treaty, takehlbefoen, the select committee on the Dar tmouth ele•ee and in that of the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of tion petition, in session 1859, Le laid before ,the house.- -the• Exchequer with respect to the income tax, they might Ordeded. ,' not at that very moment see before them a confirmation of RIWRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL. that inconsistency into which public men might be pressed. II Mr' STANFELD, who commenced his remarks by - t Those opinions had been expressed by men of opposite alluding to a speech of Mr. Disraeli, and complaining that ,sides with respect to politics, hut the only advantage he the right hon. gentleman, after stating strong objections to . meshed to draw from them was to appeal to the the measure, had declined to take the sense of the house noble lord whether, having to deal with the great upon 'it., leaving the respongibility of passing, what he con queetion• before them, it was worthy of his name and sideigid a bad measure, upon the noble lord who prepared it. He (Mr. Stanfeld) believed, that so far as the extension of his ehnnection with this great subject , that he sho u ld p lace the franchise was concerned, and with regard to its effects before them that meagre bill containing nothing but th at One proposal, which he trusted the house would not con upon the working classes, the calculations of tho hon. mem ber for Birmingham would prove more correct than the cal- sent to, overwhelming intelligence and property merely b y the force of numbers. (Hear, hear.) He (Sir J. Faking culations of thexight,hon. gentleman the member for Bucks. ton) did not object to the addition of large numbers to the In his opinion the returns before the house showed that in constituencies; indeed, having been a party to a bill di largel manufacturing towns the propositions of the noble rested to that very object, he could have no objection to lord would have but little effect on the representation, and the principle of the numerical increase of tiee constituen yet he cordially supported the bill, not because it met the ties ; nor did he object to the extension of the franchise to I advanced opinions which he entertained, but as an instal working mon. He had seen working men to whom ho ment of reform. This was a step, though cautious and would as readily gave the franchise as to any gentleman in hesitating, towards the admission of the working classes to the franchise—it was the initiation of a new era, and that house. At the same time, he , must say that he was an aelknowledgment of the fact that all classes were entitled not there to be the patron of the working classes ; but to a ishare in the representation. Regarding fitness •'''°--- , while he was quite willing that they should have the &an exercise the 41-anchise, he thought that desire was a chino, heeontended that they were not entitled to a mono sutlhent feef;tand looked upon apathy as the worst evil poly of the representation. (Conservative cheers.) Nor they could have to encounter, as it struck at they pnn- would he give the monopoly of the representation to the ciple bf independence. He utterly disbelieved that danger wealthy class. He would give that monopoly to no class. would result froM the representation of any ekes, and he (Cheers.) And here he would call to his aid witnesses to looked forward with hope and confidence to the time when whose evidence be would take the liberty to refine In cer all classes would have their share in it.. He, denied that tarn speeches delivered by the hon. member for Binning thera was apathy in the country upon the question of re- hani and the hon. member for Rochdale, there were peh form, and attributed the absence now of such excitement sages which gave him the right to call them to his support and organisation as prevailed in 1832 to a change in when he maintained that to no class should a monopoly of the position and in the habits of thought of the the representation be given. (Hear,) The first speech of people. and to the influence of the cheap press. the hon. member for Birmingham was one which he deli- Still, however that question might be solved in the minds vered at Liverpool on the Ist of December last, and in of honourable members, he believed it was those who were: which, so far as the expression of opinion went to which he most hostile to all such changes that ought to feel it was. was about to refer, he quite agreed with him, and only especially fortunate that the question came on to be settled asked him how it was that he was now ready to give his when the tide of popular feeling was at the lowes t, and when support to a measure which p ro p osed to transfer the it was possible to pass the minimum of reform--a bill of monopoly of the representation to a single class of the little real concessions gained by polit i c al ' di plo mac y . He -community. The hon, member on that occasion declared, believed in the progress of opinion upon t h at as u p on all in the stronges t p ossible manner, a ga inst the im p ro p riet y 'otherquestions. He desired not to defeat their enemies, of such a policy; and again, on the 6th of but t convert their opponents. And therefore he su pp orted January last, he said at Bir mi ng ham, t hat h e wanted the the b 1; because, while it made converts , it w ould disarm indus t ry of the countr y to be re p resented. (Hear, hear.) suspi ion and dispel false alarms. (Hear, hear) ' I How, then, could the hon. member, if he still adhered to --. Sir JOHN PAKINGTON said the progress o f the de- that sentiment, stand up in _ his place and support a bill bate pto the present time on this question heal: been most which woul d virtual l y p lace th e re p resentation in the hands curio s and instructive. They were cons iderin g one of the a g o l t a i i o c s a l7 l a t y s i s d :txhper( C e lis o sa n end s . e r v ta a ta t i o p v b i e enr c i o h : fn e a e ri cheers.) 00 pica h A pdl n ea d it eo n , c o ow wil a i e r, m w h i o et u l yf a d wa ca ni tdh l I , most mportant subjects that could possibly be submitted il for their consideration by her Majesty's Ministers. They that of the hon. member for Bilniingham, but went on to were now in the second night of the debate; and up to the propose, a plan by which a remedy might be devised for the evil of which ho 'complained. It was .in the month of present moment he had waited to hear some me mber of her August last, on thehon. gentleman's landmg from America, Majesty's Government speak in favour of the bill. The hon. and being informed that a seat in the present Cabinet was memlier for Huddersfield, in speaking of the measure, said awaiting his decision, that, in addressing a meeting in Liver-. it was only to be" a step in the right direction." (Hear, pool, ho said, la reference to a redistribution of seats, that , hear. He was followed by an hon. member who com- he thought it would be the fairest and most convenient e as signing plain course to portion outthe larger towns into wards, assienine plaindd that the bill did not contain any pr o vi sion for the to each ward a member. He remarked that the aristocracy b ballot, and all the speakers in support of the measure urged and wealthy class generally lived in one ward, and the in the n4cessity for a still larger measure. (Hear, hear.) The dustrious class 'in another and in that way there would be no ' hon. member for Birmingham addressed the house, and he danger of any particular class obtaining an ascendancy in held precisely the, same language. That hon. gentlem an, the representation. Her, then, was a plan for the purpose of remedying the evils of which they complained in the bill who thought himself a sort of English O'Connell, gave his before the house ; and let him whilst on that point, ask the , suppot to the Government, and said he was inclined to noble lord how it was that in the year 1854 he enunciated a tolerate the bill in consideration, of the position in plan for giving representation to the minority ? The plan, whieli the Government was placed, and that he was u ndoubtedl y , was not p o p ular, but he (Sir. J. Pakington) had always given the noble lord credit for ereat good sense content to obtain his object seep.by step. (Hear, hear.) and correct judgment in making that proposition, b the Now, ale would remind the hon. member of what was said object of which, as he apprehended, was to prevent the re by him in a building well known in Manchester as Watts' presentation being thrown into the bands of one class, and Building—a building which, no doubt, was one of the the other class being inspired with feelings ef (discontent. attractive sights of England. He (Sir J. Pakington) i o H t tre h h a e u e s r e .) a He (Sir ( w Si•L a t Lalei b n e g en ton)wished now to state brought to his notice in had seen that building, and in that place the hon. an anonymous l) communication from Manchester, and member, after addressing a large body of working men, which, though he by no means meant to recommend its who Were assembled to hear him, was addressed by them adoption to the house as entirely eligible, was at any of the Government and in the language of complaint and dissat isfaction that the well worthy the consideration house. It was a plan which was said to be in opera measure did not contain that " lodger franchise" which ° Jet-Ti e n the town of Frankfort, and had evidently been de was proposed in the bill of the late G over nment last year. ,vesed for the express purpose of guarding against the great (Rear, hear.) The hon. member made. a speech of very evil of any one class monopolising political power. The pro considerable ability—(hear, hear)—but the hon. gentleman posal was, that each class . should elect its representative& Such a plan could not, of course, be cairied out in this told them, just as every one else had told the m on his country without the consideration of a great many details. 'Thus, for example, if it should be decided that Men (hester side of the house, that he could only regard the mea sure as a step in the right direction. But his (Sir J. Pakiregton's) should return three members, the plan would be something opinion was that it was a miserable bill—(hear, hear)—and like this ; that householders to the value of £l.O and downs he could only suppose the Government proposed such a wards should return one member ; that householders be bill as the result of some compromise between a divided tween £lO and £25 should return the second; and that householders above 25 should return the third. If Man- Cabinet, or a compromise:under the political influence of chester should return only two members a different line foieign affairs. But his belief was that the bill was most would hahe to be drawn. As he had already remarked, it contemptible, because it was impotent for good and power- was a plan which would be attended with great difficulty ful for harm. (Hear, hear.) He was sorry the noble lord in its execution in this country, but he asked the house to the member. for the city of London had thrown away the I : i e n a e r t in wa m o ln te cl a t t h a a d t .v i a t n w ta as evident any such plan would come ges—namely, that each class would opportunity which he had. The noble lord had, during b e represented, and that the franchise might be made as the hist thirty years, had an opportunity of watching the low as they pleased, without any danger of a particular measure of which he was the introducer, although perhaps class obtaining a preponderance in the representation. not the author ; and he (Sir John Pakington) hoped that (Hear, hear.) He had now mentioned several different plans —those of the hon. member for Rochdale, the noble lord's, the noble lord would have now dealt with th e que s t ion and that in operation at Frankfort and others which showed in a large statesmanlike way, and not produced a ram- how very generally the object was recognised of giving to. sure abounding with so many faults. He (Sir John presentation to all classes; and monopoly to none. And now Pakington) entirely agreed with the hon. g entleman ne could not help reminding the house of Lord Grey's sug gestion, that, rather than act hastily, it would be well to ap who had just spoken, that the bill only contained one point a committee of Privy Council, consis tin : g of men of all proposal, and that they ought to discuss it. He agreed parties, to consider the whole subject, with a view of aseer with him that the extent of the franchise which it con- wining what might be conceded on the one hand and what tamed differed so little from that which was proposed by ought to be withheld on tie other. He did not knowhow the late Government, that it was not worth while to die- f i a ,a r t t d h& r n e ebl ju e lo t r i t m m iet t h i ;e a ve considered ltt the suggestion of permitted wa! thatremind pate over it. ,But the proposal of the late Government there was y r; precedent for the noblehiht that was 'founded on principle, and he believed the proposal reeommended, in the case of the AustralianjColonies Act of the present Government was destitute, of ' principle. of .1850, when a committee of Privy Council, composed of (Hear, hear.) He 'believed she bill contained' only one men of the . Most different political principles, was appointed Principle, and that that principle . was an intention to to in t i t n i cg a r t e e l y nto re t c h ei o r s e r i ;l y ct t . he Tti a e u ir te re a c l oye , 1 thoughtTe Wii °" w tre precedent was one well worthy the attention or the noble ove-whelin the property and influence of the country by : twe eters (hear, hear), and he further believed that a more lord. They wanted the great questi en of the representation mable bill than it wao in rust respect, it was impos- to 10e placed on a fair and substantial feeling, and nothing (Hear, hear.) He now begged to call the could i i n l i a or l e d pow d erfully conduce to such au end- than that and to were two . sides s o i b b j i e e e t e ( i ,, t imagine., Attention :tithe house to the returns of the boroughs and o t r t y ha s t house, ' themselves as a body of Lug towns, on e 'bich the noble lord see med t o have framed that lish gentlemen anxious'only for the just and judicious part of his mehesure ; and if they were to trust to those re- settlement of this qhestion. . (Hear, hear.) If such an in turns to convey xo them what might be the effects of the hniry es he had suggested were instituted, he did not think bill, he believed thee , were altogether delusive. (Hear, hear.) .. e Cl aa m m en ale co n ll a d ti b a e as fou a n a l i t n ha th a e l t ar tus w e a wl l e d o be would oppose the The'noble lord in his opening statement, evidently trusted was faunded, not' on any objection to the h r -o ei rrin v e ed cl v as h s i c c s h , to the numbers in his columns as the basis in his calcula- but on the bare fact that this was a bill to throw b a mono lion, and the hon. member for Birmingham also did se. poly of the representation into the hands of a class. He- Now he (Sir John Pakington) believed that those returns, hoped they would now hear no more of that absurd expree , personssion " h fancy w a nevertheless franchise' declared—(Conservative thelodger cheers)—used franchise especially as related to the lar g er borou g hs and great manu- facturing places, were most erroneous. Th e house would was not a fancy franchise. (Continued cheering.) They observe that the number of voters in those borou g hs were all knew how that ex p ression arose. It arose last year much smaller than the nu mber of £lO houses, and it war when hon. gentlemen opposite were praising their (M r . Di sraeli's), bill in private and speaking against it • alleged that many were disfra nchised on account of the _ in public. (11-onical cheers.) It was true that, driven to find fault non-payment of taxes. Now that was an anomaly; but it with.something, that expression was invented. The bill to was, he thought, easily explained by supposing that the which he referred `contained some broad principles of Be rating of numbers of . those houses had been increased, in form, one of which was a ledger franchise ; and he (Sir order to increase the number of voters on the register: There John Pakington) entertained the opinion th a t th e beet and boldest measure of reform ever introduced i n t o th a t h ouse was in no less than 44 of those boroughs a considerably .... was that proposal to extend the franchise to the respect smaller number of voters than of £ lO h ouses. In the borough able lodger. (Conservative cheers.) That would give of Pontefract, for instance, there were , 689 £lO houses,. and them no addition of men belonging only to one class, i only 411 voters. In' £ lo Newark there were 763 houses, and they would be men, also, who would exercise ' and only 551 votees e , and in Mid hurst there were . 429 £lO more anchise with cauti er t on and deli ay a fewbaion. The words, and re was one honses, and only 224 voters. Ho believed he could satisfy thatwas the on which ho wished to s the t question of adopting the rating as the basis of the house. H g would that. those -returns were not, as given in the the franchise. e thought himself that a rating •' be figures, to be depended upon as correct,. and that they the best basis for it; and as the Government had adopted it were wholly inaccurate as to the number of voters who in the ease of Ireland, and also in that of Scotland, he knew no good reason why it should not also be adopted • l in the ought to be placed, upeo e the register. He believed that English bill: The' noble lord said, however, those case's Would not amount to less than 25 lief . Cent: of bill to correct the inequalities incidental to thatth rating ilnied in the whole amount of - houses, and it was upon those grounds. England and Wales, and that being so, he hoped this elgiflli that the noble lord was gOing to lower the franohise to a catty would not much longer affect this part of the question. £6 rental. But the fact' was that were going to 'add a very Ho wished to guard both sides of the house against the • error of supposing theta £6 rating franchise would be equi - considerable number to the electors of the countrye•nutrie valent to a rental one of :CS. The inequalities between the h er th a t w o uld have an 'overwhelming influence over tine rental and rating values ranged from a minimum of 4 pe r property of the country. (Hear.) He believed the number ' cent. at Taitiworth arid Shrewsbury, to a maximum of 34 of voters would be very considerably greater than the noble P ee- cent. at Plyinouth. With those objections, or rather that lord contemplated—(hear, hear) —and he believed that that Partimilar one upon which he bad so much dwelt, he might be asked how it was that ho did not object to the second would apply to every one of the boroughs. Having, made reading of the bill. He felt that ho was, not open to that re that explanation to the house, let him now ask her Majesty's mark. He quite, agreed with his hon. friend near hint that Government was it wise and prudent to create that dissatis- they could not oppose the second reading of tho bill, under faction and discontent in the minds of the middle and the standing the principle of it to be an extension of the ft-an hien To thatprinciple he made no objection. They • uppee classes of society which this measure could not fail c---- --• ,_ _ . certainly, have moved an abstract resolution as au amend to cause—(hear, hear)—and it must, in his opinion, appear meat to the question of the second reading, but they were to any man plain that if the house pass this bill as it now unwilling to follow a bad example. (Conservative' cheers stood, it, could not fail to have a most injurious 'effect. and laughter.) They would not do as they had been done (Hear, hear.) Let him advert to the langdago Mlle pre- by—(cheers)—but they took the wiser, course of awaiting sent Lord Grey, as expressed in a very able published the discussion of the bill in committee. • (Hear.) When anti pamphlet on the subject of Reform. • That noble lord said e thati ate ti el nle tl e l a a t m Oie h e e o 1h:1,1)1:d/1, s : ti t ionideied hence conlideigy he was persuaded that the' present measure was founded the rescue. (Hear.) in. the meanwhil l t l i c l e ie w e o v u as ;m eo x h i.o e u to s upon wrong and unsound principles. fie believed it would that the question should be settled on broad, sound, and not be denied that those weeds of Lord Grey were prophetic. i;heral principle& lie was wilting to see the franchise ex ile (Sir John Pakingteh) . was very much Reek with that tended; but let it be exteeded with prudence and safety. Seeing, then, the - spirit in which they and thht (the Oppo • example. Let him now, give them a hint warninh.. • 'Let • n re- • • ' of Anion) aide the house were desirous of appreachfog the mind them of the warning of De T ocqueville in his writings subject, he did hope the noble lord Would devote the inter• on the United States. What did De Tocqueville tell them.? vening time to the considerationof the question, whether Did he not soy that the most eminent men —men of talent it might not be well to have sonic inquiry previous to pro ceedingwithdraw furthee in a question of such magnitude. If the and of virtue—were ~ ~ awfrom e •takino • noble lord, however, should be unwilling to consider the -• any part in pu bei e effeien o r in elections in , .America, be- f a i rness o f an i nqu i r y e he (Sir J. Pakington) would'only cause of the overwhelming influence of the large reathee express his hope thathehen they did go into committee, who were admitted to the • exercise of the .auffeage neee r 'they wold do so in. a calm, fair, and di'epassionatn spirit, the American numerical system ; and in Another passage, and he trusted the result would be the passing of a measure king of the democratic govern.: worthy of the British Parliament, and, beneficial to the Brie De TOcqueville, i people. (Cheers.) in Amonea, that en ' ment, as he saw it in operation ,1 d . Sir G. GREY said this was one of the most singular de.- their extreme liberty there was but slon , . e _, bhtee lae,hacl ever heard. When his noble friend (Lord J. to he found against tyranny ; and again' .no says' f 'liberty RueseiVintroduced the bill, he entered fully into its prin..' "There is no country in which there is less o ,Y ciples, but no sooner had he inbefeir the second reedin g t han of t an Ile. (Sir ef speech than in- Americad.' T .ea eSl,r . (Hear, hear.) , ... . John up rose the right lion. gentleman 'the member for Beeline- Pakington) therefore trusted that the house. and her hamshire and announced that it his ' • was not intention to Majesty's GOeernment would take warning by those state- offer any opposition to the second reading of the bill, and merits. (Hear.) . Let him now draw the Attention of the h e ex p re s s ed a doubt as to whether it would be his duty to • house to a fact. Was it not the fact that thehe were not 'a propose any amendment. N otw i t h stan di ng t hi s h e use d few, places in England where, in consequence of th e high hard - language of thc'bill. lie said it wag a bad bill, and rents, the property and rank were now; thrown into the uncalled: for.. The right hon. gentleman who had just sat hands of one class? (Hear.) And hero lid 'bdgged, with down. said it was a contemptible bill, a inisciable end a permission of the-house, to refer to anotherneoteilantion on Dieli gke bill, and yot those right lion. gentlemen thought it this subject—namely, by the h o n. member T o r jeadreer. (Sir co nsistent eith the principles they professed to abst lin from J. Walsh). It was a passage which, in his opinion, was ,e. . all epeeeition to the second reading. This course was pru well worthy.the attention of the house. Thet lioxiememberf dent and expedient on their part, for if they brought their detailing a conversation which he had' had with two per- opinions• to the test of a division, an immense majority sons of influence and positioa in society, said that they had against them would have exposed their weakness. (Hear, informed him that, in consequence of the manner in which titaclet ions in their districts were now carried on, and the inkucne which was exercised by a low class of voters, in theirnula bers, over men in station, they had.determined to witbdra front taking any part in those elections, and the Consery five interest was altogether swamped by those. parties. (Hear.) Lord Grey had - strongly observed that there - w a deterioration in the character of public men in , the Hou i se of Commons to such an extent, that motions war© oftrn carried against the decided opinion of those who voted thcm, and who did not scruple' to .express their re, gret at finding themselves in a majority. Now, if rumour spoke true,a . confilmation of that opinion of Lord Greyiwas to be foind in the circumstance s o f t h e present moment ; and wh ,n the right hon. gentleman the member fur Itad hear.) ' Though " Willing to wound, but yet afraid to strike." The real l',:f1S011 ii;r their conduct Brae that they would not . have dared thew - sates' to propose a measure that contained a less chano . e. (Hear, hear.) If th e Government had gone much 'farther in the way Of disfranchisement and re-distiibUtion, they niight have pined popularity , but they,wotild not have submitted a measure tha t wont(' lead to a satibfactery and safe settle/limit of this question. The right hog. gentleman (Sir J. Pakington) said there ,vas but one principle in the.bill, 'and:tht wns the cverWhelining of property and intelligence bYthe mere force of numbers, and lie quoted With s appareat triumph the speech of the hon. member for Birmingham, to show .that no predoniinauce should be given to any class. He (Sir J. valijngto4) then suggested that the bill should be referred to a judicial ,com mittee of the Privy Council . (a sugtostion flist wade by a noble friend), and. observed that when the'ineasure - enine from their hands it would pass without opposition. He (Sir G. grey) believed'that to be one of the most UtoPian ideas. The light hon. gentleman said that if the committee were appointed by different sides of the house their bill would be a paragon of perfection, and would be passed at once by the 'house. Was it not singular that this bright idea had not .struck him last year,, before the bilhof Lord Derby's Go vernment had been introduced ? (Hear.) 'Had he adopted that suggestion it might have saved his party from the dis comfiture they expel eneett last session. (Hear.) On the other hand, the riglithon.gentleman the member for Buck inghamshire fairly admitted that the bill contained three principles, viz.; the extension of the franchise in boroughs, the extension of the franchise in counties, and the re-dis tribution of seats. He objected to the simplicity of the hill, and said a great deal about "fancy franchises," a phrase used four years ago, and theretere in use before his bill came before Parliament. The term was not used as one of reproach, but as descriptive of franchises previously un known to the constitution. On full consideration of the matter the Government thought it better to adhere to the principle of representation already in existence, and to ex tend it.so as to bring Within the pale of the constitution a large'number of electors at present excluded. The Govern ment- thought they might accomplish this object in a more direct way, and therefore they did not think it their duty to adopt those fancy franchises. With regard to polling places, which had been alluded to, he thoughtrurther provision might be made in that respect, but that was matter of detail. But the most important provision of the bill wes the extension of the borough franchise, and it was to that the right hon. gentlemen (Sir J. Pakington) chiefly addressed himself. He (Sir G. Grey) would remind the right hon. gentleman I that the late Government, of which he ,was a member, adopted in their bill the very principle which he now con ' denened. (Hear, hear.) It was quite true they stood by the £lO household qualification, and insisted that it should not be lowered; but the House of Commons decided that they would not adopt any bill in which that qualification was not lowered. When the address to the Crown was moved, the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli), wishing to obtain the eoestidence of the house, confessed his error, and pro mised to anwred the hill in committee ; but from the speeches made on the bill now before the house, he (Sir G. Grey) was bound to assume that 4 0 4. gentlemen opposito had - a great distract ia the working classes. (14ar, hear.) The right hon. gentleman the Wernher for' Buckinghamshire said in introducing. his mounre last year that it was the opinion of Parliamenthteansudfftrheageooteno oils try wet i t iit theretg ias sho s n e l e d , be a large eeteneion of and observed that he had no prejudice against that opinion. " All that we want," saidhe, "is that any measure we I bring forward shall be entitled to public approbation. We are willing to ensure the introduction of a large number of the working classes by lowering the borough franchise." He (Sir G. Grey) understood from that declaration, that the Government of Lord Derby were prepared to lower the franchise.- The present Government had acted upon that principle, and yet they were told that it was dangerous and mischievous. The Government had not shrunk from pro posing an extension of the franchise to a considerable amount, because they felt that no bill , would produce a per manent and stable—he did not mean ansverlasting—set tlement of the question that did not extend the suffrage to a large number of the working classes. Was no account to be taken of the increased and increasing intelligence of the working classes ? The late Mr. Robert Stephenson, when called upon et a public meeting to do honour to Sir William Armstrong, in referring to the struggles of his own father, observed that this ditilcelty was not in overcoming matter, bet in directing mind. The working men of his days had n ow enrols s e t intelligence to comprehend his Weise This sea . not the ease at Keeent. Sir William Armstrong found no difficultyin obteping workmen to make his gun. This was owing to the inereesed intelligence of the Working men: Were these the men whose nunibers were to overpower the electoral body ? He (Sir G, Grey) anticipated no danger from the admiselon of such men within the pale of the con stitution He did not think the /reposed lowering of the boreegh franchise would create sinessential change in the character of our constituencies. Thetight hon. gentleman (Sir J. Pakingtee) had impugned the accuracy of returns lel4 before the house tie tp the number of £lO electors. Al thmelh lap (Sir G. Grey) 'woes' net vouch for their exact accuracy, still he believed they were prepared with great care, and.might be relied upon as en approximate estimate of the numbers that would be added to the electoral roll by the bill before the house. It was his belief that any bill which did not eentain the principle of extending the suffrage to the working classes would fail to command the support of more than a trifling minority in that house. He defended, against the objections raised by the right hon. gentlethen the members for Proitwich and Buckinghamshire, the ad dition to the £lO qualification in counties of the payment of poor rate, and he justified the distribution of seats in the manner proposed by the Government. The right hon. gentleman the member for Droitwich expressed his regret that the extension of the beroue'h franchise had been based on rental instead of rating. No doubt, if the rating were the v ctuat value of the property, then that would bethe more preferable basis, bet while the rating was rude and unequal, they could not in justiee or fairness 'adopt it, and to wait till tlia bill for improving the valuation introduced by the Home Seerefary became law, would be to delay the progress of the Reform - Bill to another session. Never was there a period more desirable or opportune for taking into calm and dispassionate consideration the question of Reform, for the country was happy,. tranquil, and prosperous. Ho hoped the bill would receive that consideration which it deserved; and if it met, as he had every confidence it would, the sanction of Parliament, he believed that it would atford satisfaction and contentment to a large portion of the intelligence of the country hitherto without the pri vilege of 'the franchise, awl that it would tend to the strength and stability of our Institutions. (Hear.) Mr. ADDERLEY said the right hon. gentleman Who lasi addressed the house. seemed to forget that a bill might be right in principle, and yetmischievous by the manner in which that peinsiiple was applied ; and he quite overlooked thosse details wh.eh made the Reform Bill introduced last year by - his right hon. friend the member for Bniking hamshire n /Vila and Conservative measure. It was' the wholesale absence of those details which rendered the bill of the elevernment a robschievous and dangerous measure. He felt the m greatest commiseration for the Government by whom such a bill was introduced, and he attributed its au thorship to the hon. member for Birmingham. [Them were only 24 riesmbers present when Mr. Adder ley had proeeerled thus far with his statement, and an hon. member moved that the house be counted. During the period that elapsed between the motion and the comet about 20 members, Lord J. Russell among the number, rushed in from the diningtoorn, and the " house " was thus made. When the Speaker counted " 40," those who assisted to make the house immediately took their departure.] Mr. AD DEIeLEY resumed, and said that what had just occurred indleated what was the state of the feeling of that house on the subject under . .their consideration. (Opposition cheers.) A similar display, ho understood, took place in the house, but with more success, on the last evening that the subject was intended to be brought before it. He (Mr. Adderley) was favourable to an extension of the franchise, but he cautioned the house that they were making a most hazardous experiment in reducing the borough franchise from .ElOto £G. • (Hear, hear.) As they were agreed upon the second reading of this bill, he yet hoped in committee they would make such arrangements as would provide against any serious innovation en the present system of tho representation of the people. He especially objected to that provision of the bill by which it was proposed to accumulate members in connection with populous places, instead of scattering those members over the country. (Hear.) The principle of the Constitution was, that every portion of the country and every class should be represented, and therefore he objected to accumulating mem bers in populous districts. He looped the bill would be care fully considered in committee. Mr. MASSEY said the state of the house was not such cad to encourage discussion, but' notwithstanding the apathy which prevailed, the bill was of some imp - lemma, and would be attended with great results, (Hear.) He trusted this measure would settle the question of Reform for a consider able number of years. When he entered Parliament ho found this measure of a revision of the Reform Bill was a public and an agitated question, and therefore he was obliged, however reluctantly, to form some opinion upon it. There might be some question as to details, but there was none to the principle of this bill. The first objection to the last Reforin Bill was, that the franchise was not sufficiently extended to the enlightened and intelligent classes, and another objection was, that representation did not boar a fair proportion to the population in many places. However, in a community like ours there must be some anomalies, and they could not, in any ease, arrive at perfection. It was said that the great commercial centres of industry were not adequately represented. But had they suffered from that fact ? Had not the entire course of legislation during late years been in their favour ? Then if that was so, where was the practical necessity for reform of Parliament so far as they were concerned ? (Hear, hear.) . Well, then, why was this question now to take prccedeace of all other questions of immediate exigency ? It was simply because it was a vexed and an irritated question ; and although the prac tical necessity for reforming Parliament was not very urgent, he was prepared to settle it this session. There were eerie • anomalies to be removed, and desirable amend ments to make. There were also theoretical objections to be redressed. There were little boroughs sending two members to that house, and there were, on the other hand, large hives of industry who had but the same voice in that house. These - inconsistencies should be redressed, but if that was to be done, the measure should be well considered, and not conceived in a lassitude indicative of a desire to satisfy a promise hastily made. The measure of disfran chisement was well conceived, and, from his acquaintance with the working classes, lie did not apprehend any danger from the new constituencies that were to be called into ex istence. They might occasionally be misled, but there was no fear to the property of the country, which appeared to be the danger apprehended by the Conservative party. As far as the franchise went the Mil was ample.' But would the bill settle the question? (Hear, hear.) That was the point. (Hear, hear.) The object of the noble lord was to redress anomalies, but he really thought that the bill created greater anomalies than it removed. Looking at one of the great objects of the Reform movement, which was the re- speculative anomalies, let them have a measure which would effect their object: - Salfersl had . 100,000 inhabit an t s an d 4;500 electors. Its claim-to a second member had been al ready recognised by the noble lord in his bill of 1854, and another member was awarded. It was now to be left in its existing state. It had now 4,500 electo rs , an d wou ld h ave 10,500 under this bill, and could he be expected to go down to such a place—teeming with population, full of energy and enterprise, commercial power and wealth, and increas ing beyond any borough in Lancashire in its commercial prosperity—could he be expected to go down to such a place with this bill in his hand, and say, "This is the measure which is to settle the reform question for you." (Hear and laughter.) He laid no Claim' to being what was called an "advanced Reformer." . (Laughter.) He was a moderate man. He liked to keep pace with the necessities of the age; but, considering the momentous results of these orga nic changes, ho preferred rather to progress gradually than to snake these hazardous plunges ir. the dark. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord might say that this bill was but a compromise, and that all our measu res now were com promises; but: what would his constituents say when they found that small market towns were loft with their full complement of members, and the claims of this great borough of Salford, occupying a position almost unique in its character, were ignored ? The borou g h o f S a lf or d , i n three years; had added to the register a number nearly equal to the united constituencies of Cockermouth, Buck ingham, Tavistock, and Wycombe. (Hear.) Yet these were spared in their integrity by this bill. (Hear.) There were points in the measure which it was impossible for hint to defend. He must look at the question as a man of hush nets. If the noble lord had'adher6d to his former measure and excluded the consideration of the re-distribution of seats, it would have, been a prudent measure ; but the noble lord had not chosen to do that, whloh had placed him (Mr. Massey) under the verydisagreeable necessity of going clown to his constituents and becoming an agitator for another Reform Bill. (Hear.) That was a position which he could only, accept with great reluctance. Theao were solemn and aerie - 11s questiona which ought not to be inconsiderately opened. We were not, like our opposite neighbours, one day under a republic, the nest under a mongrel monarchy, and after that a despotism. (Hear,) We lived under a Constitution which had lasted 800 years, and ho touched that vencrab!a fabric with difildeno.o and reluctance. If, hoWever, he were asked, after thirty years, to take part in amending the measure which was then a great measure, he would say, let the propose% be consistent with that mea sure, and carried out in the same spirit, and then he would help them to amend it. Tn the noble lord's farmer bills he attempted to provide for the representation of minorities; but he was very glad that he had now abandoned that idea. The English people understood a fight and a victory, but they know nothing of the representation of minorities. The measure of the noble lord had been praised for its simplicity. (Hear.) It was simple even to rudeness. (Laughter.) He thought simplicity might be carried too far. (Laughter.) It was easy to devise simple modes of escaping from our serious difficulties ; but he did not think such redo modes as these of cutting the Gordian knot would entitle persons to be regarded as great statesmen, or to claim credit for having conquered difficulties. The great evil was, that they took these enormous areas and flooded them with a great number of voters, and thus they created monster constituencies. Now, all who were ac quainted with the working of our representative system in this country would bear him out in saying that in proportion as they increased the number of voters; beyond a -certain limit, they dititinislied the value which each voter attached to the frasselsise. He found himself a unit in the midst of a vast mob, and did not attach a proper importance to his vete. With these huge constituencies it was impossible that a member could make himself acquainted with them. People returned a stseroher whom they knew little or nothing about. His nomination often #bit lute the hands of some self-conslititted "association" or "club," and they elected themselves into a sort of electoral college, found the candi date, prescribed hitpolitical creed, eoreesponded with him on public subjects, and became a species of middlemen be tween the member and his constituents, (Hear, hear.) This was - one of the most pernicious hatures of our electoral system, and it was of the utmost importance that such a state of things should be put an end to, (Hear, hear.) in great boroughs they would find one district Conservative and another district Liberal ; there was just as much differ ence often between two parts of the same borough as there were between two different boroughs. (Hear.) He thought that they ought to adopt the principle of the Reform Act of 1832, and as they divided the large °aunties, so they ought to divide these monster borough constituencies. If this were done no one need fear the flooding of these vast electoral areas with a number of now voters, for they would find in division a compensating circumstance. (Hear.) He thought it a great disadvantage to members to bo scut to that house who did-not know their constituents. (Hoar, hear.) Yet this must be the case while the electoral districts were so enormous. (Hear.) He was averse to novelty in such mat but this was not a novel principle, seeing that it was recognised in the act of 1332. This division would interest the voter in the franchise, it would familiarise the Candi date with his constituents,_ and it would avoid the middle men to whom he had referred. He would be glad •if some hon. gentleman would take up those ideas and developo them. They were not his ideas, but were the matured opinions of the member for Rochdale. (Hear, hoar, and cheers.) As the servant of the house, it would be his (Mn Massey's) duty to sit in the chair when the details of this measure were being 'discussed (hear, hear), and in that ssosi- Con it would not be decent in him to urge upon the house those matters of detail. (H ear , h ear. ) H hoped come hon. gentleman, therefore, would consider the suggestions ho had made, and would throw them into shape. (Hear, hear.) There were also certain additions to the franchise which might lie usefully introduced into the bill. He did not ap prove of " fancy franchises," but he could not regard the " lodger franchise" as being " fancy" or sentimental. It was anomalous to give to the occupier of a house a vote which was denied to his lodgers, from - whom his sole income was perhaps derived. He believed that from a lodger frane chit's) they would get a valuable addition to the constituency if they did not carry it too low. The measure, as it now stood, was bald, naked, and repulsive. It was a d reary, monotonous desert, which would bo agreeably varied by a lodger franchise (hear, hear)—by an educational franchise of some sort. (Hear, hear.) Ho hoped that the noble lord would condescend to consider the suggestions which had 'been made, and which might be thrown out during the course of the debate, and that ho would revise his bill accordingly; and that, if not, he would lend a willing ear in commit tee to those suggestions, the object of which was to improve the bill which he had introduced—to make it worthy of his distinguished name, and a becoming settle ment to that great measure of 1832 which regenerated the constitution of this country ; and which conferred upon the people' the blessings of good government and of enlightened laws. (Cheers.) Nr. STEUART belieied if this bill passed it would have the effect of placing the right hon. gentleman the Chancel lor of the Exchequer in the position of a democratic leader —a position in which he would be backed by the hon. member' for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) ; and bearing in mind how very versatile the right honourable gentleman was, and how frequently and easily he had changed his opinions, he should not be at all surprised to see him, per haps at no distant time, in that position. (Laughter.) Mr. C.ROSSLEY did not think there was any ground for apprehension, because the bill would extend the franohise to a large number of the working classes. Wore they afraid of the working classes ? (Nc.) Certainly not. The right hon. baronet the member for Droitwich had that evening called the bill a miserable bill; and another right host, gen tleman of his party had designated it as a pitiful Budget Bill. Now, in his opinion, it was a bill which contained much that was worthy of adoption by the house. Looking at the various interests of the country, its shipping, its farming ; and, above all, its manufactures, they saw great social progress ; and was it not, therefore, desirable that they should move with the times, and extend the franchise ? Ile had given notice that every male adult who said 40s. a year in direct taxes ought to have a vote. (Hear, hear.) And hero he should read a letter which ho received from one of his constituents. The hon, gentleman here read the letter, which described his correspondent as a clerk in a re spectable establishment, paying £4O a year rent and all taxes, and yet he had no vote. He (Mr. Crossley) thought it would be well if the noble lord had introduced a clause in his bill to extend the franchise to lodgers. (Hear, hoar.) Then, again, there was a fault in the bill which ought to be amended—namely, that clause which said that the voter must pay his assessed taxes by a partioular day. He hap pened to visit America, and although h e did netlike or ap prove of all their institutions, he must yet say that he saw much there to approve of and that recommended itself to him. Tn New York, for instance, he did not during his residence there see a single beggar. in the streets, arid he did not think there was that danger to the States which some hon. mem bers apprehended from the vast numbers who were there entrusted with the franchise. Then, as to the working classes of this country, he had much intercourse with them, and he had every reason to speak in the highest terms of their merits and their worth. In sickness and in distress, there were no better friends, no hotter neighbours. (Htar, hear.) Why, then, should they not be entrusted with the fran chise ? They said, "We only want a fair share of the suf frage—we don't want any overwhelming influence—we don't want a monopoly—ail wo want is to have a voice in tire representation of thepeople, and in those matters which concern the great interests of the country." (Hear, hear.) For those reasons, then, he should, give his vote for th e se cond reading of he bill; calculated as it was to give the working classes a share in tho elective franchise. (Hoar.). Mr. KER SEYMER 'said that lion. gentlemen above and below the gangway on the opposite side of the house who had spoken, expressed themselves favourable to a £6 franchise, and among them was the hon. gentleman who had spoken last. That hon. gentleman spoke of the Mee; sure even more favourably than any of the hon, members who preceded him. Now, seeing that the hon. - gentleman was connected with the West Riding of Yorkshire, and that the 'West Riding, by the provision of the bill, would if the measure passed, have four members in future, the hon. gen tleman seetned greatly pleased with the bill ; but as far as he could understand the meaning of the hon. gentleman, it Was that we travelled very fast by sea and land, and there fore we should have a very large Reform Bill. (Laughter.) But thoughtful men, both on that and the other side of the distribution of seats, he thought the bill a failure. It doubled the groat constituencies. The extension of the franchise house, ana thoughtful men, also, out of the house, viewed the bill with very great alarm—(hear, hear)—and the house was greater Allan in the bill of 1832. The new electors - would remember that the bill of 1832 was also viewed with under this bill would be numerically superior to an the others, and they could return their own members in the very great alarm. That bill effected great chantes in the great seats .of commerce and industry. The measure was most extensive and fearless in that direction, and if it had actual constitution of the House of Commons. An hon been accompanied with an extensive measure of disfran- chiseinent he would have said it was consistent. But if they were to consider this bill as a settlement of the Reform question, -it must,: besides extending' the fran- cliiie wisely, be accompanied by a corresponding re-dis- t libation of seats. But there was the defect of this tnea- sure. lie could not understand how any English gen- tleiaan who based his desire for Reform upon a member used the argument that because the bill of 1832 did not do harm, therefore another Reform Bill would re-distribution of seats could be satisfied with this measure. • not do harm. Now, he thought that argument was a very unfair one. (Hear, hear.) It had been said out of doors that this bill, in giving votes to the work ing-claescs, would but expose thorn to the influences of corrupt practices at elections. Now, he would nover give to the working-clas!,es a vote with one hand, and, on the other, expose them with their votes to the influences of cor rupt prao ices at elections. The hon. member for Birming ham said the other day, alluding to this bill, that it would unsettle the whole question. Now, what did the noble lord himself think of that Mr. B Y IGHT—I did not say any such thing. I said, so far as the disfranchisement of seats it did not settle the question. I did not say as so related to the franchise. Mr. KEIt SEYM:ER could not quite understand the hon. member for Birmingham. lle would, however, read the passage from the hon..member's speech to which he referred. The hon. gentleman said, "You unsettle every thing, and you disfranchise in tho distribution of seats. (Laughter; and cries of Hoar, hear.) The hon. member looked only at numbers, but he (Mr. K. Seymer) looked at fitness. He did net 'care htm ninny were rejected if they were unfit,: nor how many were admitted if t,,,b7 were fit. No one could more deplore the oNisteime or bribery than he did, but it was certainly to be observed that there was !Mich less of it in counties than there wasin boroughs. And the reason was very obvious. The county constituencies were spread over an extensive surface of country, spirit was impossible for corrupt agencies Co Ivork 4 92 them in , • Indeed; the hot. member for Birmingham admitted he was not satisfied on that point. The noble lord drew a line, and said all places below five thousand returning two members shall henceforth return but one member to Par liament. That' gave him just 25 seats for distribution. Did the noble lord suppose that would satisfy the advocates for re-distribution? (Hear.) Why, he must be sanguine in deed if lie thought that could by any posSibility settle the question. (Hear.) He now came to the constituency which he had the honour to represent, the borough of Salford, which was the largest borough in England represented by a single member, Tie was not coming to the house to sue in forma pauperis for a Soomtd member, but be was otli,Y brintrint , forward this as an illustration. , It they were to brink in a Reform Bill not demanded by any practical grie vano, but introduced to adjust and settlo theoretical and 44.. • as far as was proposed by this bill, he thought they had better not attempt to legislate at all. No measure short of that of the noble lord would at all meet the exigencies of the case. (Hear, hear.) Mr. WHITESIDE observed that in 1782 Pitt said he could not venture to touch the ark of the constitution with unhallowed hands, and Mr. Fox remarked that if all the wise men in the world met 'in solemn conclave they could not frame a perfect constitution. He (Mr. 'Whiteside) was inclined to that opinion. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Halifax said there was On apathy on the subject of the Reform Bill, and accounted for it on this principle—that the English people had become " rigid philosophers." But he (Mr. Whiteside) believed that whenever the English people felt deeply they expressed themselves strongly. (Heer, hear.) If they approved of this Reform Bill they would speak out unmistakeably on the subject. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Birmingham said the bill was intro duced in accordance with a promise made by the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) when he sat on the Opposition aide of the house. Mr. BRIGHT—I did not say he introduced the bill on that account. (Order.) Mr. WHITESIDE said the words of the hon. gentle men were, that the bill was introduced in redemption of a pledge given by the noble lord when he was on the Opposi tion side of the house. That was substantially the state ment made by the hon. member. (Hear, hear.) Now, a worse argument than that could not be adduced. He (Mr. Whiteside) admitted it to be a fact that the noble lord, when on the Opposition side of the house, threw out a hint as to what a reform bill ought to be ; but now the hon. member for. Birmingham had informed the house that the bill was brought forward in redemption of a pledge. Was that an argument to justify the introduction of the bill ? The right hon. member' the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said the Government could not succeed in re taining the confidence of their supporters if they brought in a bill which conferred a lesser extension of the franchise, (Hear, hear.) Now, the confidence of the house meant the confidence of the majority. But did this prove that the bill was a good one ? It was the duty of enlightened statesmen. not to pander to the prejudices of the majority, but to intro-, duce such measures as would be conducive to the permanent welfare of the country. (Hear, hear.) The hon. giiitle man who spoke last gave the house a specimen of statistical rhetoric, from which it might be inferred that, in hie opinion, the interests of the whole of Great Britain and Irehuid were concentrated in Leeds. (Laughter.) When the, right hon. gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire spoke of tho homogeneous mass of persons that were to b added. to the electoral body, the hon. member who spoke last imagined that they would be all plasterers. (Laughter.) The hon. member for Carlisle—wh,o was a chip of the old block—(a laugh)—said the ballot was said to be unfit for small boroughs, and was cm tainly not so applicable to them as to large ones, but in the supplementary Reform Bill which must follow, the small boroughs would be extinguished. The hon. member for Birmingham said that the transfer of seats was the pith and marrow of every Reform Bill, but that the measure before the house did not settle, but unsettled that question. According to high Parliamentary authority, then, they were about to unsettle everything and to settle nothing —a piece of statesmanship that did infinite credit to these hon. gentlemen who occupied seats on the Treasury bench. The hon. member for Bir mingham went further, and declared that it was impos sible the question of reform could remain permanently where it was about to be placed by this bill. The old doctrine, then, of finality was exploded, and one Reform Bill was only regarded as valuable because it led to further change. Would the hon. member for Birmingham permit him to ask was his principle to reform the constitution or to reconstruct it ? If he desired to reconstruct, then his task was not one of reform, but of revolution, and he (Mr. Whiteside) declined to argue the question with him. (Hear, hear.) When the hon. member announced that the population of England was six or seven millions, and that only one million were voters, what did he mean by that argument ? Did he mean by that to infer that the rest should bo adinitted to the enjoyment and exercise of the franchise ? At what time did the English constitution re cognise the sovereignty of the people ? At no time. To argue that the masses should be admitted to the franchise was to argue against law, against the history of England, and the principles of the constitution. They had made improvements in steamboats and railways, but they were surpassed in political wisdom by the abnoimis sayentia of their ancestors. He should like to know whether a veer, such as was now proposed, could discharge the duties which the elector discharged in former times. There was no instance on record of men being represented becauei of. their numbers. Were hon. gentlemen opposite going to ad mit the working classes to the franchise because they were working classes ? The only ground for admitting them was that of their having an independent will, sufficient property, loyalty, and p o liti ca l capac i ty. It did not matter in that case how numerous they were. The more the better. No proof, not an iota, had been adduced to show that those bodies of the working classes possessed that political capa city. The hon. member for Birmingham had spoken of the admirable workmanship of the artisans of Manchester, but at present they were net seeking for a good stonemason or , plasterer, but for persons who had political capacity. As a the metropolis,of o f the stateht, f of feeling t e among a pamphlet workingh e byitr. . r classesott Potter, r t secretary to the trades unions. lie did not think that the :0 employers of these men would get their votes if they bad them. In the pamphlet in question the writer spoke of the want of courtesy on tie part of the masters to the men who waited on them, of their conduct as being tyrannical over individuals and insulting to the whole body. It then went on to speak of the conduct of the masters during the strike, • and that nothing , remained for the workmen but the right of combination in order to compel the masters to give them the same pay for nine as for ten hours' work. (Hear, hear.) That, the workmen said, was their political economy. The writer went on to attribute the soul and body crushing effect of toil to the failur=e of mechanics' in stitutes, as well as the small number of workmen who had risen to a better position, compared with those who had given no more proof pf spiritual or political capacity than the brutes that perished. Ought they to 'give political power to such men ? In mercy to the men themselves, they should refuse them a power which they admitted they were not qualified to exercise. In another pamphlet, en titled " Trades' Uni on Strikes ; their Philo so phy and In tentions," from which h e read several extracts, it was con tended that labour might be stolen by'the predatory, capi talist, and several false ideas of the relationship between master and workmen were put forward. These men said that they would persevere until they succeeded in obtain ing the nine hours movement. This was the result of this great organisation. amongst 'the working classes. The right hon. gentleman then went on to quote further extracts from the work, to show that the best men of the workingclasses wore identified in the views to which he had already ad,- verted ? The theory of these views was this—that they did not seem to sympathise with the hon. members for Bir mingham (Mr. Bright) or Rochdale (Mr. Cobden), and he (Mr. Whiteside) wished to ask the house how it was justi fied in transferring so much political power to a class of men who entertained the notions which were here enun ciated. Did hon. members read the proceedings which had taken place in the American Assembly, and which had appeared in the journals that day ? There an eminent orator showed that a. minority of slave owners had suc ceeded in getting rid of every law of the country to pro mote their own selfish object. If such had been done in that country, the institutions of which were so much ad mired by the hon. member for Birmingham, what might not be effected by an organised minority in this country having the same parposelin view (Hear.) He was sorry the hon. member for Birmingham was not in his place to hear this. He was seldom so at the right t t h im e e h . ous (L e anusgiht o (Laughter.) Looking Looking th en a t th e measure before ho asked why was it that they were asked to make this jump in the dark? (Hear.) The late Sir Robert Peel, in legislating en the Catholic question, said they could not govern a country with a large body of free holders. The Irish 40s. freeholders were not an inimoral body of men, but they were ignorant, and in their ignorance they would have got rid of church, law, and property. Ho then got rid of the 40s, freehold system, and raised the franchise to £lO. That franchise was subsequently altered to a £l2 rating clause in counties, and an Y-S rating clause in boroughs and cities. The Attorney-General for Ireland, however, proposed now to change that rating to a lower sum, although the alteration was not asked for by a " tra velling tinker or a loquacious barber." (Laughter.) He could not comprehend what was the nature of the bill be fore them, but he trusted the house would consider it calmly ; and he was sure that Parliament would listen to any suggestions that could be made for its improvement, by which the constitution of England would be secured to the people in all its purity and integrity. Mr. EDWIN JAMES moved the adjournment of the debate. compact masses. He denied, too, that they were slaves in the sense which had been implied in the assertion. The hon. member for Birmingham did not like county constitu encies, because there was a strong Conservative feeling among the yeomanry, who sent hint (Mr. K. Seymer) and other hon. gentlemen like him, to oppose the hon. member, and to tell him that, with all his ability and honesty of purpose, he was a dangerous politician. That was why the hon. gentlemen did not like the county constituencies. The hon. gentleman said, " Why are you afraid to trust the people ?" Th e hon. gentleman evidently trusted them, and trusted their ignorance, too, or else he would surely not venture to repeat in an assembly of educated men the language he had screetirues held out of doors, when he infirmed his hearers that the landed gentry of the country kept up large armaments because they de sired to make them the means of providing their brothers and SOW with emolument. Why, the fact was that they paid much more as their share of income-tax than the scanty pay doled out to those who received it. Now, one reason why he and others were alarmed at this bill was, that the class of men who were to be admitted to an exer cise of the franchise would be very likely, after having been thus excited against them and made to belieVe that they had been robbed in the taxation that had fallen upon them, to turn round upon their supposed oppressors and adopt measures which they (the gentry) would consider unjust. He contended that the expense of representation lay, after all, not in numbers or in wealth, but in the character of the members themselves. The Government had a majority in the house but he still h a d suc h conf i dence in its good sense that he did not doubt that in the further course of the dis cussion on the subject they might be enabled to make the bill what it was not now, a bill for the better representation of the people. Mr. E. BArNES saki; though he was about to support the measure of the Government, he hoped that in doing so he should not subject himself to the taunt just uttered against the hon. member for the West Riding (Mr. Cross ley), namely, that he was influenced in favour of the bill by the fact that an additional vote was given to the place which he repkesonted. It was true that an ad litional member was given to Leeds—(Opposition laughter)---but it was well known to maw members of that house that he had for years entertained the opinions which he had risen to ex press. For years he had believed that it would be safe, wise, and right to lower the borough franchise to £6. That was the great distinguishing feature of the bill before the house, and he hoped that the figures he was about to give by way of illustration, with regard to Leeds, would tend to dispel the alarm which was felt on the other side with regard to the probable effect of the measure. He would, however, first notice the objection of. the right honourable gentleman the member for Bucks, that in this bill there was no principle ; that though the franchise was brought down from £lO to £6, there was nothing to indicate the fitness of the voter. There was the same prin ciple involved in a £6 as in a £lO franchise, or in 40s. free holds, and the objection of the right hon. gentleman ap plied just as much to the existing system as to that which was about to be established. £6 was a very much higher rental than that of most of the houses occupied by the work ing °lessee, and as the occupation of a house with such a rental indicated sobriety, industry, good morals, and good habits, it included, in his opinion, those moral and social qualification*, which the right hon. gentleman summed up in the one word "fitness." The "fancy franchises" of the right hon. gentleman were objected to, he believed, chiefly because they were proposed as a substitute for the extension of the franchise to the working classes. Indeed, the right hon. baronet the member for Hertford (Sir E. B. Lytton) advocated the bill of the late Government expressly on the ground that it kept the representation in the hands of the middle classes. - Another objection, however, to the present bill was that it enfranchised a great number of persons who, being a vast homogeneous mass, would exercise a prepon derating influence in the borough constituencies to which they belonged. Now, he was convinced that that was a great mistake. At present the borough constituenciesnum bared 400,000; only 200,000 at the utmost would be added by the bill; and how could the 200,000 exercise a prepon derating influence over the 400,000 ? He had taken some pains to ascertain what effect the bill was likely to produce in that respect in the borough which he represented. At present the constituency was 6,000, by the bill 4,000 would bo added, making a total of 10,000. The treasurer of the council of Leeds, who had to do with the collection of rates and other business of the same kindall his life had collected statistics with regard to the new elections, being assisted in so doing by an experienced ratepayer. After stating that the total number of new electors would be - 4,000 persons, they estimated the number of those who were strictly operatives at 2,500, who were among the most intelligent and best skilled working men of their class. Three schedules relating to these persons were furnished. The first included those who occupied houses of from £6 to £7. The trades to which the persons included in it belonged indicated that there would be extreme difficulty in their organisation for any political purpose. There were cloth dressers, dyers, and mechanics of various kinds; masons, bricklayers, plasterers, and joiners. The second schedule included persons who paid from £7 to £B, ands there were to be found cloth pressers, warehousemen, iron and brass moulders, brush makers, wood-turners, curriers, and leather-dressers, and so on. In the third schedule, which comprised houses of from £8 to £lO, were retail shopkeepers of all kinds, book keepers and assistant clerks, and printers. These facts would, he hoped, satisfy those who thought that - the now electors were such a homogeneous class that they might be combined for any political purpose. The whole number of electors under this bill, including both the old and the new voters, was estimated at only 607,000. The population of the boroughs, which in the year 1851 amounted to 7,432,000, at the present day must amount to about 9,000,000. The adult males would be about one fourth of the whole number, that was to say, 2,225,000, so that the voters could only be about one fourth of the adult male population. The popu lation of the upper and middle classes was about one-fourth of the whole, and the lower classes about three-fourths, and inasmuch as the whole number of electors was little more than a fourth of the whole adult population, he believed the hon. member for Birmingham was far wrong when he said that only about 100,000 of the voters in boroughs would be long to the working class. He thought the number might be 150,000, and assuming the maximum number, what was there to alarm them so greatly that the working classes, who were throe-fourths of the population, should torm one-fourth of the number of electors ? Allow him to ask what proportion of the working classes they thought it right and just, and reasonable and safe, should have the franchise. Because if 150,000 of them were admitted to it, look at the enormous number who were excluded. They did not bring in more than about one in ten. In many boroughs they brought in ono in five, but in many others not more than o ne i n t e n. He believed that those occupying houses of the value of be tween £6 and £lO, who would now be admitted to the fran chise for the first time, represented an amount of moral and intellectual fitness so great for the exercise of thofranchise, that it could not with safety be withheld from them. The noble lord who introduced this bill first appeared as a Par liamentary Reformer in 1820, when he proposed to take the anchise from Grantham and 'confer it upon Leeds, and it was then said in that house that the leading banker of Leeds had written to say that if the franchise were given to the £lO householders of Leeds he ,should he obliged to shut up his bank. Contrast the social condition of that borough in the present day with what it was in 1820. Her Majesty went down to honour the town of Leeds by opening the Town-hall about a year and a half ago, and on that occa • sion she passed in her carriage along many miles of streets, through half a million of people, without one syllable of rudeness being uttered, and amid the heartiest expressions of loyalty. He believed in the loyalty of the working classes, and that there was amongst them a conservative feeling of the best kind, and he 'believed that if they wanted to snake them conservative in the best manner they would accom plish the object by admitting them to the privileges of the constitution. He wished t o ca ll th e a tt en ti o n of those who took an interest in the social condition of the community to a few facts with regard to the borough of Leeds. First, with regard to savings banks, there were 12,878 open accounts, and £338,000 invested. Of the West Ridin penny savings bank, there were eleven branches in the borough, which were receiving at the rate of £BO 'a week, and th ere were num erous savings banks co nnected with Sunday schools, mechanics' institutions, and other institutions of the town. The friendly societies com prised 22,543 members ; the benefit building societies 7,581 members ; and he might mention the remarkable fact that they bad invested a sum of no less than £900,000. The me chanics' institutions, and similar institutions, were no less than 26 in number, and their members amounted to 5,556. There were 133 Sunday sChools, taught by 5,274 teachers, and comprising 35,000seholars. There were 371 day schools —that was in the year 1851—of which 76 were public and 295 were private, and they included 21,831 scholars. There was a town mission employing 16 agents ; the Temper ance Society numbered 3,000 persons, and there were two co-operative flour mills, one of whi c h h ad 3,200 members, shareholders, and they had a capital of £11,795. There was one point more, showing the amount of intelligen ce w hi c h existed in the town ; and hero he would institute a compa rison as well as he could between the year 1820 and the year 1860. He had endeavoured to ascertain what was the num ber of newspapers circulated in Leeds daily and weekly in those two periods. He believed that in 1820 the number of daily papers circulated in Leeds did not exceed 1,000, the number now was 3,800: In 1820 the number of weekly papers was not more than 3,000, the number now was 17,300. The number of literary, scientific, and religious weekly periodicals sold in Leeds at a former period ho was certain, at a liberal estimate, did not exceed 500. The number now was 21,742 per week. Then, 'of monthly publications he would assume that at the former period there were 500 cir culated, which was a liberal estimate, whereas the number now sold in Leeds was 12,603. These facts, which indicated so great an amount of social progress in Leeds, were only a sample of what had taken place in other boroughs. Tho general educational statistics he would not allude to further than to say that between 1818 and 1851 the day schools in creased 218 par cent., while the population increased only 54 per cent. That was surely an indication of that great social progress which was the greatest justification of, nay had rendered necessary, the bill of the noble lord. It would be unsafe for Parliament to shut out men who had such intelligence and such laudable habits as he had proved the people of our large boroughs possessed. Ho believed there wa truth in tho statement that the filite of the working classes were more independent than those who were higher in the social vale. He admitted that there was much to remt, among them. Out of 50,000 adult males they were still only giving the franchise to 10,000 in the borough ofl.eeds. Vorty thousand were still left out of the zdo of the eoustilqtion. If they did not extend the imehjse Lord J. RUSSELL said he was ready to go on with the debate, but as the house maned disposed to adjourn it, he would not interfere with the wishes of the house. Lord PALMERSTON, in reply to Mr. DISRAELI, said that in all probability it would be better at once to move that the debate be adjourned until Monday. It was accordingly adjourned to that day. ENDOWED SCHOOLS (No. 3) BILL (LORDS). This bill passed through committee. The Consolidated Fund (£850,000) Bill was read a second time. The house then adjourned at half-past twelve o'clock. BIRTHS. CUST.—On the 22d inst., at 13, Eccleston-square, the Lady Elizabeth Cust, of a daughter. FORDYCE.—On the 21st inst., at 7, Dacre-park-terrace, Blackheath, the wife of Colonel Fordyce, Bengal 144., of a son. PAGET.—On the 20th inst. at Stuston Rect ory , S co l e, the Hon. Mrs. Edwa r d P age l, of a son. TYSSEN.—On the 15th inst., at Yarmouth, the wife of Com mander Tysseu, R.N., of a daughter. MARRIAGES. GOLDSMITII—BULLEN.—On the 20th inst., at Charlton, Kent, Henry P. Goldsmith, Esq., to Ellen, the eldest daughter of Richard Bullen, Esq., and niece of the late Admiral Sir Chas. Mullen, G.C.8., G.C.H. SYKES—Coorm—On the 20th inst., at All Saints', Nor wood, Nichol as Ri c h ard Sykes, Esq., to Catherine Eliza. beth, second daughter of the late Richard IV. Cooper, Esq., of Longford Ledge, Kingstown, cu. Dublin. DEATHS; 13ALFOUIL—On the 20th inst., at Pilrig House, Edinburgh James Balfour, Esq., W.S., aged 87. Boveutn.—On the 20th inst., John Boucher, Esq., of Bel ford Lodge, Clapham-road. CAMPEELL.—On the 20th inst., at 10, Houghton-0 164 0 Ampthill-square, Robert Campbell, Esq., aged 82. FOTHERINGHAM.—On. the 19th inst., at King bridge House, Southampton, Lieut.-Col. Robert H. Fothoring ham, 11.E.1.C., aged 82. PIIILLIPS.—On the 19th inst., at 67, Oakley-square, N.W., William Lovell Phillips, R.A.M., aged 43. TYSSEN.—On the 21st inst., at Yarmouth, Eleanor Mar garet, wife of Commander Tysscn, R.N., aged 39.. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURI)O YOUNG of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112, Strand, in the Preoinot of the Savoy, in the ootuar Middlesex, Friday, March 23, 1860. 1~1 Asst Inllllo a ge. ] Credit Three. Polieie No eh a i 3 i?e ap s p , don:, it Ro. G S ir El JO ilenry John Edw4 . Thoma s Alexa m redk. 7 Charles' 1 1°4 Ai Wm Te oat Stei NOTII FIRE O n Oth A ~,PIRE •-,crporat In the t icipatior Participa The Re pearly 2 Cent. upo Equiva paya h blel Te ful years. Any sr Life. This Cc Lib the li. A r, Sociel "Stock The of air h e c I n T the ml lbaited MEDIC JIM Publl in a sea] sera pose MAN] 7 Perfectr e 15 . Alberu INTRO] Structure; CHAP'r Early Vici CHAPT of Marrin Ironies of CH — AFT and Moral over a per , CHAPT Gonorrhce. The 800 Eases, to IN otion. "Curtis 'should be i 23 E1 March "The a n Mhm work o pro, 1d age.,,_ it , At } tom , " i ldaYs, 1 N ceive( eidini to M a Whip Grei (Estai 1