The Sun. — London, England, 1829-04-09 00:00:00

weeks ago, was not such as had been described by the Noble Earl. It was true there had been a petition signed by many thousands in Edinburgh against it, and, considering the means taken, and the statements made that the object of the Bill was to introduce Popery into Scotland, he should not have been surprised, if, instead of 11,1000, it had been signed by 40,000 persons. If left to themselves, he was satisfied the majority of the people of Scotland Would be in favour of it ; and he was sure that aftet the eloquent appeals recently made by Dr. Chimers and others, many who had signed petitions against it wouid ha be dispos.d to do so again. The Earl of HADDIGTON" raid, Alit any fears tram the operation of this clause in rstotland were utterly ground. There were fly two Catholic Peers in Scotland, and about 18 landed vroprietors. If the Act of Union was at all violated 1 . - ,y the Bill (which he denied), it was by the ge sera ! principle ,r it, and not by this clause. the umer.:arnent was then put, an negatived without a vtion, and the clause, as it stood in the Bill, was put and agreed to.. The next five clauses for regulating the mode of admi nistering the oaths at elections--for repealing the tender of formula (in Scotland)—for excluding Roman Catholic Priests from seats in the house of Commons—for allow ing Catholics to hold civil and military offices under his Majesty, with certain exceptions, and for not exempting Roman Catholics on admission into office from taking any other oaths than those mentioned in the Act -as.were seve rallut and agreed to, without discussion. On the next clause, containing the excepted offices, being read, election of churchwarden!, ke., in Ireland, was read and agreed to. The next clause, allowing Roman Catholics to become tnembers of lay Corporations, was then read'. Lord FARNHAM stated that theii: Wti're many institu tions in Dublin,--%-suilt ) fol. instance, as Morgan's Charity the Management of which had been devised to certain Law Officers of the Crown, such as the Chancellor and Lords Chief JuMices, Who were Protestants At the time the 'Charit'y wad nevisetf, i4e pioposed an amendment, pro .t/icling that no Roman Catholic, filling any of those situa tions, should become a trustee of such institutions. Lord PLUNKETT said, that if any Roman Catholic, or any other person hemming a trustee of such institutions, should mistnanege the trust, they would be subject to the contronlof the Court of Chancery. Lord FARNHAM did not press hie amendment, though he thought that a trust might be abused, not only in an open and flagrant manner, but also in such a way IA no Court of Law could take cogni2ant:e of the mettter. The Clause was then agreed to, as was also the next, providing that Roman Catholics, being members of cor porations, should not vote in the disposal of ecc:isiastical appointments. The clause, providing that no Roman Catholic should hold any office in the Established Churth a or Ecclesiastical Courts, Universities, Colleges, or Schools, was read. The Earl of HADDINGTON did not see why Catho lics should not be allowed to hold offices in the Commis sary Court of Edinburgh, as that Court had no connection with the Church. The LORD CHANCELLOR stated, that that Court was of the same =Wye as the Ecclesiastieal Court in Ehgland. The clause was then agreed to; as was the next, pro viding that the right of presentation to benefices connected with office, if held by Roman Catholics, shall devolve on the Archbishop of Canterbury. On the next clause, providing that no Roman Catholic should advise the Crown in the disposal of office s conne c t e d _ _ Lord KENYON 'aid that it was certainly a great ano maly in the bill to except the office of Lord Chancellor from the Bill, and not to except the Prime Minister, who tract the power of making and unmaking that officer. He Should therefore move, that to the offices excepted be added th se of Lord High Treasurer, or First Lord Commissioner of the Treasury, the Secretaries of State for the Foreigli, Home, and Colonial Departments, Lord President of the Council, Lord Privy Seal, Master-deneral of the Old. nonce, and Lord High Admiral, or First Lord Commi, sinner of the Adreiralt;-. Lord HOLLANb said that the Noble Lord mistook the principle of the exceptions trade. The offices excepted Were not excepted on political grounds, but because in their nature they partook something of the supremacy of the Crown, The office of Chancellor was one which "Oterei.' - aerl an extensive right of church, patronage in the ;erson of the Chancellor himself, an.l without the neces sity of tali:ll,g the pleasure of his Majesty on such appoint ments. This was a privilege annexed to the office in the time of King Henry VIII., and continued to the present time. It was therefore necessary to except that from offices to which Catholics might be eligible, or to mutilate it by taking from it the church patronage. The former was, he thought, the better and more regular plan. It was con tended that this was a principle affecting the Protestant suc cession to the Crown, because,as was contended by a Noble and Learned Lord (Elton), (whom he was sorry he did not now see in his plauei, as lie had a bone to pick with him on this subject), if it was a principle that no religious opinion teas 'ae a bar to political power, there was nothing—and tt ".as hard if there should—to prevent the heir to the throne friam the succession, even though his religion should not be Protestant. The Noble and Learned Lord (Eldon) had, with the good humour which always distinguished Ai* remarks, taken this as an inference from some opinions which he supposed had been delivered by him (Lord Hol land.) Now it fortunately happened that the opinion re trred to was on their Lordships' journals, in a protest which he had felt it his duty to enter on a former occasion. What he stated in his protest was, that religious belief was no bar to the possession of power purely political and civil. The Noble and Learned Lord had omitted the word " purely," and then argued upon the declaration as it stood after the omission. The kingly office in this country was ottt purely political. It was pal fly ecclesiastical, and therefore he thought it was wisely excepted from those offices to which Roman Catholics were to be admitted. He begged to inform the Noble Lord who was anxious that the office of Prime Minister should not be open to Catholics, that the law recognised no such person as Prime Minister. The term was borrowed from the French word premiere, but it was in fact an offence against the law to as- Some tilt title. If the most influential Minister should hap pen to be a Catholic, he could not, according to the provisions of the Bill, dispose of any church patronage ; and if he were to advise his Majesty as to how he should dispose of it, he would, according to a subsequent clause, be guilty of a misdemeanour. The Noble Lord seemed to think that a Lord Chancellor was completely at the beck and call of the principal Minister. His Noble and Learned Friend, who had held the office for 25 years, might not perhaps be altogether well pleased with the Noble Lord. for entertaining that opinion. The Noble and Learned Lord could proba bly tell him, that a Lord Chancellor sometimes thwarted a Prime Minister full as much as he supported him.—(A laugh.)—ln discussing this question, Male Lords had been too prone to argue on extreme cases, as if they were of probable or certain occurrence. When the improbability of Papists obtaining a preponderance in the Cabinet had been urged, it was said—" Oh ! but the King may be forced to take Ministers whom he does not like." Now he had been one of those who had endeavoured to force the King to take Ministers whom he did not like ; but he must say, he had found it no easy job to do so.—(Laughter.)—lf any one were desirous of forcing the closet, (that was the phrase in Lord Chatham's time), a Roman Catholic would be an odd lever to work with against a Protestant majority in both Houses. In conclusion, the Noble Lord said, that the great question which was settled at the Revolution of 1688 was not any dispute between Protestants and Catholics, but the principle that the King was made for the people—not the people for the King ; and that the King possessed the throne, not by absolute but by Parliamentary right. Lord KENYON observed, that the Whig-writer, Burke, opposed the principle which the Noble Lord had just pro pounded. Lord HOLLAND said, that the Noble Lord misunder stood him if he supposed that he advocated the opinions which Burke had, he thought, succeeded in confuting. He thought he could convince the Noble Lord at a fitter oppor tunity, upon the authority of Lord Somers and King Wil liam himself, that the establishment of a Parliamentary right to the Crown was effected at the Revolution. with the Established Church, being read, Lord TENTERDEN rose to make an amendment, which be thought would extend the provi*ion of the Bill to the colonies. He took the present opportunity of say ing that he had looked into the Act of Parliament respect ing the repeal of the sacramental test, and he found th.t the Noble and Learned Lord's observations upon it were correct, though he complained of the manner and tone in which the Noble and Learned Lord's remarks were made. The LORD CHANCELLOR had too much expe— rience of the liberality of his Noble and Learned Friend, not to be quite sure that he would make every allowance for any expression that might have fallen frorn him (the Lord Chancellor) in the eagerness and warmth of debate. His Noble and Learned Friend well knew the deep respect which he (the Lord Chancellor) felt for his character, and the high Tense which he entertained for the advantage which he had done to the country by his great and exten sive learning, and by the admirable manner in which he had performed the duty of his high situation, to be satis fied that, whatever expressions had fallen from him, had not been uttered with any intention of casting the slightest reflection on the Noble and Learned Lord. With respect to the amendment, he thought it unnecessary, as the clause sufficiently provided that no Roman Catholic should fill an office under the Church of England and Ireland, in what ever country it might be. Lord TENTERDEN did not press his amendment, and the clause was agreed to. The clauses respecting the time and mariner of taking oaths for corporate offices—respecting the time and man.- nee of taking oaths for other cffices—respecting the pe nalty on acting in offices without taking the oath—respect inz the oaths taken by naval and military officers, were agreed to without discussion. On the clause which enacts that no other oaths shall be taken by Roman Catholics being read, Lord FARNHAM proposed to substitute the words " the commencement of this Act," in the place of the words " the passing of this Act," as the Act did not corn mence till ten days after it had passed. After a short conversation the amendment was with drawn, and the clause agreed to. On the clause which prohibits Roman Catholics from assuming titles to see•, &e., being read, The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL proposed to include in the penalties of the clause, all those who addressed Roman Catholics by such titles. The Earl of I%IALMESBURY had, on principle, always opposed Catholic Emancipation ; but that having been carried, he was opposed to encumbering emancipation with restrictions like these, which were of no use. The Duke of WELLINGTON could not agree to the amendment proposed. He concurred with the Noble Earl that the clause itself was no security. It was inserted fir the satisfaction of the public, and to show that the Legis latut &did not countenance the assumption of these titles by the Roman Catholics. Many persons attached a great degree of importance to the assumption of these titles : and the amendment now proposed was another instance in sup port of what he bad said on a former occasion upon the difficulty of Ivgisluting nn this subject at all, so as to give general satisfaction..--(Hear, hear.) The Bishop of DURHAM said the clause only tended to check the open avowal of these titles, and did not touch the evil itself. The constitution of the Roman hierarchy in Ireland was perfectly unique. It proceeded pixel passu with the Protestant establishment,— bishop for bishop, dean for dean, and so down to the incumbent of every being in the country. Re believed there was no similar anomaly in the whole_history of ecclesiastical polity. The Bishop t f LONDON said that the real evil was this : the Pope of Rome pretended to give the temporali ties, as well as the spiritualities, of benefices to the Romish hierarchy. The Irish people knew this, and the conse quence was, that an improper expectation that their clergy would obtain possession of the temporalities was kept up in the minds of the Irish people. Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, that the Right Rev. Prelate who had just spoken had taken the correct view of this subject. Lord REDESDALE said, there was one difficulty in this clause, which he could not clearly see his way through. He did not know how those individuals who had long been called " My Lord Bishop (,f Dublin," or " 3ly Lord Bishop of Kildare," could divest themselves of those titles, or act efficiently in their clerical capacity, without describing themselves by these titles. If those persons exercised power, they must exercise it in that way, For his own part he thought the clause would do no good. Lord FARNHAM obiected to this clause, becau.e it might very easily be evaded. Lord TENTERDEN said, his opinion was, that this clause afforded no security at all, although the Noble Duke had declared that the securities which the Bill would com- The Archbishop of CANTERBURY spoke in support o the amendment, The Bishop of LONDON felt peculiarly interested in the amendment. He thought the office of Colonial Se czetary and President of the Board of Controul should be excepted from the operation of the Bill. Indeed, he would go so fir a, to say, that all Colonial Governors should he of the Protestant community. It was not alone by the dispo.al of patronage that the Protestant church in the colonies could be injured. That church was still in its infancy, and it was highly necessary that the inhabitants of the colonies should feel a conviction that its interests would be protected by a Protestant Representative of his Majesty, who would display readiness to receive suggts tions fur its welfare, and promptitude to act upon them. Good or evil would result in proportion as the persons fillin; those offices were disposed to encourage or t) de press the church. If those offices should be filled by Ro man Catholics, attached to their own church, and anxious to promote its prosperity, he had no hesitation in saying that the Protestant church in those colonies must be crushed. —( Hear, hear. ) prise must satisfy everybody. He thought it was of paramount importance, especially in Ireland, that Roman Catholic ecclesiastics should not be called by the name and title which belonged to Protestant Bishops, because it kept up in the minds of all an opinion that the titles thus assumed were lawful titles, and led them perhaps to think that those who possessed such titles ought also to possess the temporalities that belonged to them. That could not Lord REDESDALE wished to know how his Majesty was to be advised with respect to the disposal of church patronage in the colonies, in the event of there being a Catholic Secretary. The Bill did not transfer the right of advising. The consequence would be, that the ad vice would be given by the Catholic Secretary, but given indirectly. The Duke of RUTLAND wished that some clause had been contrived to exclude the Roman Catholics from fill ing the office of Prime Minister, in which case he should, after what he had taken the liberty of saying last night, have felt it his duty to g;ve the Bill his support. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE observed, that unless Roman Catholics were prevented from becoming Privy Councillors, the excluding them front any particular office would not preclude his Majesty from selecting a It man Catholic fur his adviser, and thus constituting him Prime Sinister. The amendment was therefore nugatory. Lord REDESDALE said the influential person in the reign of King James 11. was a Privy Councillor. The Duke of WELLINGTON stated that the mode by which the Government proposed to effect the object that the Noble Lord who proposed the amendment had in view, was by this and the following clause, by which all such Privy Councillors as might be Roman Catholics were pre vented from giving advice to the King touching the dis posal of ecclesiastical patronage. Lord FARNHAM wished to know whether the instru ment communicating the King's pleasure respecting the disposal of church patronage would be countersigned by any responsible Minister. Earl BATHURST replied that the instrument would be countersigned by one of the Secretaries of State, who would be responsible for the act, Lord KENYON then withdrew the amendment, inti mating at the same time his intention of proposing a similar amendment on the bringing up of the Report, un less the Noble Duke (Rutland) should take the matter up. The clause was then agreed to without an amendment. the next clause, providing that the Bill shall not in ny way alter an Act passed in 7 Geo. Iv. c. 72, regu latius the levy awl application of church rates, and the had been ascribed to him. What he said was this,— that the measure which he shdtild have the honour to prOpoie tq that House, Woii!di in his opinitin--: And it *at, In his opinion, calculated to---giV e satiw fiction to thC House and to the country; and that, in its effects, it would be found to be a measure more calculated to prevent the growth of Popery than to increase it.— Hear, hear.).--These were the words, as near as he bonld recollect, of which hd made use in speaking to his Noble Relative, who was then in the Houk!. It was scarcely necessary to mention, that this took place Within two days of the period when his Right Hon. Friend brought this Rill into the House of Commons ; and cer tainly it would be admitted, that he could ndt have in tended to d6Ceite their Lordships tvith respect to a Wilt On which he knew their Lordships would be set right in two days.—(Hear, hear.)—What he said was, that the measures which would be proposed were calculated, in his view of the subject; to give satisfartion. He was still of the same opinion. Ile thought thot the}' were likely to produce tranquillity, awl to prevent bloodshed.—( Hear.) Lord TENTERDEN said, if he had mistaken the Noble Duke, he was bound to apologise ; but so much had been said about securities, that he might possibly have 'confounded different observation.. The clause was then agreed to. The next clause, enacting " that jadicial or other officers are not to attend with insignia of office at any place of worship, save of the established church," was agreed to without remark. The following clause, "inflicting a penalty on Roman Catholic ecclesiastics officiating, except in the usual places of worship," was, after an olservation from Lord Renzs- DA LE, agreed to. The ensuing clause, providing " that this Act should not repeal Statute 5 Geo. IV., c. 25," was agreed to without observation. On the following clause being read, " providing for the suppression of Jesuits and other religious orders," The Eat' of MALMESBURY rose and observed, that he could not himsef form an abstract idea of a Jesuit, and he should be glad to know by what sign a Jesuit was to be discovered. Perhaps the Noble and Learned Lord (the Lord Chancellor) woiald be good enough to inform him. He had been in various countries, and he was not aware of any distinctive mark by which a Jesuit might be known. Lord BEXLEY considered this to be a very important clause of the Bill. When their Lordships considered the nature of the institution of the Jesuits, and how prone they were to extend their authority, every effort ought to be made to prevent the increase of that order. He could not but think that some effectual provision ought to be re sorted to for putting down and suppressing that body. Lord FARNHAM was of opinion, that instead of the punishment awarded by this act in cases where its provi sions were invaded by Jesuits, &e., it would be much better, after a certain time, which the Legislature might name, if they directed that any property acquired by them, or by any other monastic order, should be attached. After a few words from Lord REDSSDALIC and the Bishop of OXFORD, the clause was agreed to. On the clause, that a Jesuit, or ()Tiler member of a reli gious Order, coming into the realm, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanour, and being lawfully convicted there, shall be banished the kingdom for the term of his natural life, being real, Lord TENTERDEN rose to propose an amendment, The Noble Lord said, that banishment was unknown to the law of England ; and, besides, he would ask, what punishment it would be to a person coining into this coun try to be ordered to go out of it? The Noble Lord there fore proposed, as an Amendment, that all the words after the word " misdemeanour," should be left out of the clause. . The LORD CHANCELLOR said, the proposition of the Noble Lord would not effect the purpose which he had in view, for in all the words after the word " misde meanour" should be omitted, a Jesuit, on being convicted of the offence of coming to this country, could only lie im prisoned, and after the time of imprisonment had expired lie would have a right to remain here; but the clause as it stood wcul I enable the Government to remove him out of the countr✓. He was astonished to hear the Noble and Learned 1..,r1 say that banishment was unknown to the I.w of Engl old. In the reign of Queen Elizabeth an act of Parliament was passed indicting the punishment of ba nishment on certiin offences, and it was no doubt in the -recollection of the Noble and Learned Lord opposite (El don), that so late as seven years ago an act was passed imposing that punishment on the offence of publishing a seditious libel a second time. There were, therefore, precedents to justify the infliction of such a punishment. In reply to the question of the Noble Earl (llabnesbury) as to what evidence they could possess to convict a Jesuit in a court of justice, he (the Lord Chancellor) would say, that as the Roman Catholic Bishops in Ireland were ac quainted with all the regulars in their diocese, they could in such cases be compelled to give evidence, if necessary, to produce a conviction. The clause as it stsod was in tended to prevent the public displays of these societies, such as had of late occurred in the vicinity of Dublin, and in parts of the county of Lancaster. Lord HOLLAND was gratified by hearing the highest authority on criminal law in the country state, that banish ment was unknown to the law of England. When the Act to which the Noble and Learned Lord (the Lord Chancellor) had alluded was before their Lordships, he (Lord Holland) made a similar assertion, and on that oc casion he was overborne by the opinions of all the Noble and Learned Lords then in the House, who produced a deal of learned arguments which he could not understand, and which therefore did not convince him, to disprove that posit 7 on. Lord TENTERDEN expressed his doubts that the Act to which the Noble and learned Lord (the Lord Chan cellor) alluded, had ever been put in force against any in dividual. The Noble Lord (as we understood him) still maintained that the punishment of banishment was con trary to the principles of the common law of England. Lord HOLLAND believed it was the law in Scotland to banish the people to England.—(A 141104.) The Earl of AIALMESBURY would be sorry to make he Catholic Bi.shops informers against the Jesuits. The amendment was then put and negatived, and the original clause agreed to. On the clause permitting his 31,ijesty's Secretary of State, being a Protestant, to grant licences to Jesuits to come into the kingdom, and to remain for six months, being read, Lord FARNHAM inquired what was the object of this clause? The LORI) CHANCELLOR said the object of the clause was to enable the Government to admit Jesuits who, for private or scientific purposes, might feel it necessary to visit this country, to come and reside here for a certain time. Lord FARNHAM wished to know wliy the words " being a Protestant" were employed? The LORD CHANCELLOR replied that these words were used because it was possible, after the passing of this Act, that one of the Secretaries of State might be a Catholic. Several sub. , equent clauses were put and carried. On the clause providing that the Act should not extend be prevented by this clause and it would be better if, in- to female societies, being read, stead of the clause now under consideration, another clause The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL could see tiro necessity were introduced, declaring it to be unlawful for any person for the females if the males were to be discouraged.— to accept of any suck nomination to the title of Archbishop (Hear and great laughter.) The nunneries were equally as hereafter. He spoke of the prospective measure. mischievous as the Jesuit and monastic establishments. The Duke of WELLINGTON felt, if he could be a They were used in many instances as places for confining party to the introduction of such a clause as that proposed females against their will. There were female Jesuits as by the Noble and Learned Lord, that he should 10L' guilty well as males, and they were quite as dangerous, The of a recognition of that which he conceived to be highly Noble Lord concluded by moving that the clause be ex illegal,—that he should be acknowledging an assumption punged. The motion was put and negatived. of authority by a foreign power, which was utterly incon- On the clause that the penalties under this Act should sistent with the Constitution of this country.-- (Hear, hear.) be recovered by information filed by the Attorney-General —He did not mean to say, that it was not true that those being read, persons were nominated as Bishops, and eve❑ placed in the Lord FARNHAM proposed as an amendment that the care of dioceses by that usurped authority. He certainly penalties should be recovered in the usual way, by being would not say that. But he did not, and would not, sued out in the various Courts of Law in England, Scot recognise in any manner appointments of such a nature; land, and Ireland. because it was evident that those appointments were made After a few words from the Loan CRANcELLoa, the by the power of usurpation. They knew nothing of that amendment was put and negatived, and the original clause usurpation, nor of the assumption of those titles. He agreed to. repeat e d, that of the assumption of such titles, the The remaining clauses in the Bill were then put and framer or author of the Bill knew nothing. It was true, agreed to without any amendments. as had been stated by the noble mover of the amend- Lord KENYON said, that as lie had the tw o amend ment, that the clause would have been more perfect, if menu which he had already suggested to the Committee to persons could have been prevented by it from using those propose when the report should be brought up, he wished assumed titles of Archbishops and Bishops in writing.— to know from the Noble Duke what day he would fix for But he begged their Lordships to advert to the difficulty the receiving of the report, and what day he shoul.l fix for of carrying such a principle into effect. Let their Lord- the third reading. ships look to their own proceedings,—let them examine The CHAIRMAN (the Earl of Shaftesbury) said he had their own journals,—and they would find places over and never known an instance of a report, where no amend over again where those titles were given in print to those in- I ments had been made, not being received at once by the dividuals.—(Hear.)—ltwasimpossibletodeal with writings House. under such circumstances. All their Lordships could do The Duke of WELLINGTON said, as no amendments was, to declare that those titles should not be assumed by i had been made in the Bill, the report, in accordance with those persons in future. He could not conceive that they the usual practice of the House, after the House resumed, would suffer any inconvenience in carrying on their spiritual might he brought up and received. Its further considera concerns because they were prohibited from assuming those tin he should propose for to-morrow (this day), and it titles. And he would say, that though he meant not to urge was his intention to fix Friday for the third reading of the the clause as a powerfnl security in Ireland, yet that it Bill.--(Hear, hear.) would give great satisfaction to many persons in that part Lord KENYON wished the Noble Duke would post of the United Kingdom. The Noble and Learned Lord pone the third reading to Monday.—(Cries of " No, no.") on the cross-bench had attributed to him a certain ex- The House then resumed. pression ; but before the Noble and Learned Lord at- The report was brought up by the Earl of SHAYLES tempted to fix it on him, he should have made him- near, and on the question being put that it be received, ; self master of th e fact. H e ( t h e D u k e of Welling- Lord KENYON rose and proposed the two amendments ton) never said one word of the description which , which he had already suggested ill the Committee i the first prohibittng4onaissoftec Peers, being priests or hishops, from sitting in that House; and the second excluding Ro nian Cdtholics, in addition to the offices already excepted, from the offides of Loft' High Treasurer, or First Lord Commissioner of the Treasury, Lord Privy Seal, Comman der-in-Chief, or General-in-Chief commanding his Majesty's forces—Principal Secretaries of State, and Lord High Admiral. The Noble Lord said he had no expectation that those amendments would be adopted, and he only proposed them for the purpose of having them recorded on their Lordships' Journals. 'the amendments were then severally put and negatived. The report was received, and ordered to be taken into fur ther consideration to-morrow (this day) ; and on the mo tion of the Duke of WELLtNoTog, the third reading of the Bill was fixed for Friday, for which day their Lordships were ordered to be specially summoned. . Adjourned at a Quarter past Eleven o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(LAST NIGHT.) Sir T. FREEMANTLE presented a petition from cer tain owners of collieries on the Tyne and Wear, respecting the duties of 6d. and 4d. per chaldron on the importation of coals into the London market. These duties were to be appropriated to defray the expence of the approaches to the new London-bridge. The petitioners prayed to be heard by Counsel before the Committee on the Bill in defence of their interests. The Hon. Member moved that the peti tion be referred to the Committee. Sir IL WILSON opposed the motion. The Committee had already heard Counsel on the subject, and decided that the 4d. and 6d. duties should be solely applied to defray the expence of the new London-bridge approaches. Sir T. FREEMANTLE denied that the Committee had come to the decision stated by the Hon. and Gallant Member. Sir R. WILSON repeated his assertion that the Corn _ mittee had decided as he had before stated. Mr. TENNYSON denied that the Committee had come to the recision stated by the Hon. and Gallant Mem ber for the borough of Southwark, and was of opinion that the petition should be referred to the Committee. The SPEAKER, in reference to the decision alluded to as having been made by him, observed he had decided that an individual, who merely professed to be an agent of the public, and who had no interest in a Private Bill, could not have his petition referred to a Committee—such a person had no locus standi before a Private Committee. The cage was different where the petitioner possessed an interest likely to be affected by a Bill. The present peti tioners professed to possess interests which would be pre judiced by certain clauses in the 1111; and so far as that consideration went, the petition ought to be referred to the Committee, who were to hear the petitioners upon such parts of the measure as concerned their interests. But it was stated, the Committee had gone beyond that point of the case to which the petition related. If so, it was useless for the petitioners to go before the Commitee: unnecessary loss and expense would be the only conse quences; and the House, knowing the fadt through one of its Honourable Members, that the Committee had al ready gone too far to entertain the question, would not remit the petition to it, as by so doing they would only oc casion delay, loss, and delusion. The only remedy was to move upon the report that the Bill be recommitted, when the petitioners might be heard. Mr. TENNYSON trusted the House would refer the petition to the Committee, leaving it to itself to decide whether or not it had gone too far to hear the petitioners upen the matter in question. After a few words from Sir R. Wuson the SPEAKER, Mr. STUART WORTLEY, and Mr. lloattousr, the petition was referred to the Committee. Dr. PHILLIMORE presented a petition from certain persons possessing interests in places likely to be affected by the approaches to the new London-bridge, praying to be heard before the Committee respecting those interests.— Referred to the Committee. Mr. COURTENAY said, it would be a matter of very great convenience to Government if the Hon. Member for Coventry would consent to postpone his motion upon the subject of the Silk Trade, which stood for to-morrow, to any other day, even though it were only till the next day. Mr. FYLER acceded to the request of the Hon. Gen tleman, and fixed his motion for Friday. He hoped th it the intention of Government would be then stated. Mr. COURTENAY was satisfied to let the motion stand for Friday ; and added, that his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald) would be fully prepared upon that day —upon any day after to-morrow—to state the inten tions of Government on the subject. The notice of motion was accordingly postponed till Friday. Sir J. MACKINTOSH had received two petitions in favour of the Roman Catholic claims. One of them he should only then present, reserving the presentation of the other for a future opportunity. The petition lie was now about to present was from certain Students of the Univer sity of Glasgow, and it would have been more numerously signed than it was, but that the signatures were confined to those of Students of three years' standing in the Uni versity. Thi. petition, and a circumstance that had lately occurred in Edinburgh, gave him great satisfaction, as affording a confii mation of the statement he had made when presenting the Edinburgh petition, that the rank, talent, and intelligence of Scotland (including the ministers of tie Presbyterian Church) were in favour of civil and religions liberty. A proposition lately made in the Edin burgh Presbytery to forward a petition to Parliament against the Roman Catholic claims had been rejected by a majority of 13 to 4. This distinctly sliewed the feelings of the clergy of the metropas of Scotland upon this subject. He rejoiced at this circumstance, for the sake of the character of his native country, and of the clergy of the capital, and as affording a corroboration of the state ment lie had made with respect to the sentiments of enlightened persons in Scotland, including the clergy, which were decidedly favourable to the great measure of relief now passed by the Commons, and received in the Upper House of Parliament by so triumphant a majority. Mr. TRANT said the present petition came a day after the fair -as did the attempt to get up a counter. petition in the Presbytery of Edinburgh. Sir J. MACKINTOSH observed, that the attempt to ob • tarn the petition was made a fortnight before the Relief 8.11 had passed the Commons, and at a time when he believed it impossible for the Presbytery of Edinburgh to know the determination of the House.—The petition was ordered to be printed. Mr. SUGDEN obtained leave to bring in the following Bills :—a Bill to amend the Laws for the Payment of Debts out of Real Estates; a Bill to amend the Laws re lating to Illusory Appointments; a Bill to amend and consolidate the Laws relating to Lunatic femmes covert and Infants; also a Bill to amend and consolidate the Laws relating to Lunatics and Infants being Trustees. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned. 4.• CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL. ABSTRACT of the HOUSE of PEERS, as they voted on the Motion for the SECOND READING of the CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL, on the 4th of April, 1529. LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, APRIL 9, 1829. Poor old Lord ELDON, the staunch Intolerant of four-score, seems at last nearly exhausted. The little trickling streamlet of his invention and in genuity has fairly run itself out—the channel is dry—there is not a particle of freshness left. One by one his Lordship's arguments have been replied to, and given up by many, even of his own party, and the slight stock of logic that he has yet left on hand, is actually not worth the valuation. He en deavoured, last night, to shovr fight, as usual, but it was a mere show. The substance—the stamina that should enable him to force the trenches of his opponents was wanting, and nothing now remains for the disconsolate old gentleman, but to shut him self up in Doubting Castle, nurse his gout, and de fend himself and those about him from the encroach ments of liberality and intellect. The downfall of this once influential statesman ►vill serve as a useful warning to those, who, trusting to their own superior energies, may be tempted to array themselves in presumptuous hostility against the character and necessities of the times in which they live. In the overthrow of Lord ELDON'S supre macy, they will find their own distinctly shadowed forth, should they ever attempt like him to dam up the current of public opinion, or direct it into wrong channels. A few years ago, and who so great— who so omnipotent, as the Ex-Chancellor of Eng land ! His word was all but law—his opinion de cided the Ministry—his high behest kept seven millions of British subjects in the most unjust and debasing thraldom. What is he now ? Read the Debates and see. There see the poor old man drivelling night after night his puny maxims of in tolerance to a House, which pays that respect to his years and experience, which they would scornfully deny to his argument. There see SAMPSON shorn of his strength—the giant prostrate on the earth, sad the crowd looking down upon him, in silent ex pressive wonder at the weakness of the bug-bear who so long kept them in subjection. But this is the world all over. They first set up a scare-crow, bend before it in worship as before a Deity, and then when they are sick of adulation, pull it down unceremoniously from its niche, and condemn it for that very elevation, which, after all, was the work of their own hands. Lord ELDON retires into private life with the singular consolation of reflecting, that the power which was intrusted into his hands for beneficent purposes, has been turned into the Minister of evil ; that on no one occasion hus he ever been known to contribute to the improvement of the age; but throughout his political career has invariably kept his face turned towards the East, forgetting that the sun of intolerance has since made the circuit of the ho rizon, and is now set for ever in the West. Yet his Lordship—strange infatuation—still persists in look ing for it in the East ! A Buenos Ayres mail arrived this morning. The accounts are unfavourable. They state, among other things, that a civil war has broke out hi the pro vinces, that three chiefs are at the head of 1,000 men, and that the Governor has marched against them with 800 cavalry. The following are extracts from the Buenos Ayres Papers to the 19th January BUENOS AYRES, DEC. 21 . A document has been published, entitled, "Manifesto made by the Provisional Government of Buenos Ayres, of the motives that caused and justified the movement of the Ist Dec. 1828." It is very long. It is reported that the routed forces of the es-Governor have collected in various parts, and committed some out rages, and that the Convention in Santa Fe, when they heard of the change effected in the Government of this province, had authorised the Governor of Santa Fe to as•- list in order to establish order, if necessary. Dec. 27.—The intelligence of the proceedings in this city on the let instant has caused great sensation in Cor dova. A project was presented to the Junta of that pro vince, by one of its members (Larcano), and we believe immediately passed, to unite in the person of the Governor (Bustos) the legislative, executive, and judiciary authorities. Bustos has issued a proclamation, dated Cordova, Dec. 10, stating, that "liberty is threatened by a factious party, that the man who caused theanarchical movement on the Ist inst. in Buenos Ayres, is the same who so many times has had the audacity to assert that he should never be satiated with spilling the blood of the Provincialists. Those who have been guilty of the scandalous act of deposing the Governor-General, constituted so:by the general vote of the provinces, placing themselves at the head of the troops who had been destined to assert the honour of the Republic, are the same who, in 1814, requested from Charles IV. a branch of the House of Bourbon to be King over us ; are the same who, in 1815, protested to the Count de Casa Flores, the Spanish Ambassador in Rio Janeiro, that if they had interposed in American affairs, it had been for the object of better assuring the rights of his Catholic Majesty in this part of America ; they are the same who, in 1816, would have sold us to Don John VI., the Prince Regent of Por- tugal ; they are the 'lame who, in 1819, would have sold us to the Prince of Lucca ; and, finally, they are the au thors of all the misfortunes of Portugal. The Governor of Santa Fe (Lopez) has issued a circular to the different provinces, slated Dec. 19, 1828, upon the movement in this city on the Ist, stating it is neces sary to attack in its origin the evils which threaten not only the provinces of Buenos Ayres, but all the Republic, which will be involved in miseries, if the system of the Unitarians is suffered to prevail ; and that the salvation and 'security of the country demands that the system should be put aside and exterminated. The Governor of Entre Rios (Soli) in answer to the above, dated 10th inst. agrees in the necessity of acting with promptitude to avert the evils which threaten them from the late military movement in Buenos Ayres, of which Don Carlos Alvear and Don Juan Lavalle ate stated to be at the head, and that he (the Gotetnor) is ready t° aci with considerable force. JAN. 10.—From the tenor of our ^ domestic'new s t r y tht animosity engendered, civil war would teem tol)e is avoidable. The adviees from Cordova, however, g _ rather favourable, inasmuch as it is positively..staee d the Governor (Bustos) has not 800 disposable.trOePh is likewise short of money and horses. 11€ 1 JAN. 17.—His Majesty's ship Ganges, 84 guar, Admiral Sir R. W. Otway, sailed from Rio Janeiro k Ist, and arrived at Monte Video the 10th inst. The i t s mir.ll, Captain Inglefield, and several officers, / , 5 1e Buenns Ayres in the Tribune, a boat front which 09 ' on shore on the 13th. Our City Correspondent says, that a private lel ter his been received from Rio Janeiro of the Bth ° I I February, which contains the following imports° information :—" Don PEDRO has consented to or' knowledge his Brother as King of Portugal, P t " vided be pursues milder means in his Governall which is to be guarante e d by A us t r i a , France, 51 ' EnglAnd. The Cortes are to meet sooner than expected; and the frigate is to take back - a Geri" Princess, whom Don num° is going to • marry.; Exchange, 26i to 27. Every. thing wis 'veil at Rio." The French Papers are chiefly filled with ? II titulars respecting Cardinal CASTIGLIONI and elevation to the Chair of St. Peter's. " says the Massager " supported by France at t ill time of the election of LEO XII., and opposed t ° that Sovereign Pontiff." Our readers will find tracts in another column. The German Papers announce the death of hi e Serene Highness the reigning Landgrave of 4Esst Homuurtc, who died on the 2d of April, at-Hoer' burg, after a short indisposition, at the age . of 59 years. Prince Louts of Hesse-Homburg, Governor of Luxemburg, succeeds him. The death of tb e late Landgrare was occasioned by inflammation 0/ the chest. The same Papers state that news be / been received from Bucharest of some advantage/ obtained by the Russians near Varna. The mei complete arrangements, they add, have been mad e in the Russsian army for the subsistence of th e troops. They state also that the Divan at Const Brr tinople is more than usually busy, and has had fr e ' quenc meetings of late. We have given extracts elsewhere : IiRAYKFORT, APRIL His Serene Highness the reigning Landgrave of 11 7. Homburg died last night at Homb urg a f ter a s h or t BID' , at the age of 59 years. Prince Louis of Hesse Hombur r ft g A , N o Gor e n r. eor o r f a t j t u . z 4 e ' • burg, who succeeds to the Landgraviate. of Hesse n ein t : burg, is at present at Berlin, when ce h e i s expec ted 0 0 il tend the funeral of the late L an d g r ave Joseph Louis, Whi cls will take place next week. The ill ness which °call °ee the death of the late Langrave was .an inflantal, l44l : the chest. The Land grav i ne i n th e mos t a ff ect ionatc!"-i ner never left him till he breathed. his last. ger P.Olll Highness is as well, as can be expected under suchcirc ut s stances, but like the o th er mem b ers of thefainily Plowed in the greatest affliction. . • 14 - , A . • na . ODESSA, 31,4.1 ,-- _,( The reports of a serious and sa n gu i nar y a ction • 1 . 1 r" Varna, which were in circulation -here a - few seem to be wholly unfounded. .. • - ' FRONTIERS OF WALLACHIA, MARCS We have received news from Bucharest, of some addax" tages obtrined by the Russians near Varna,. which milY ille . o considered as p re l u d es t o th e gran d op era tions which To shortly comm ence on . th e D anu b e .. Th e we at h e r 01 rather severe, but the grass, which hi beginning to. 0 °1 ",•' promises abund an t f orage f or t h e cava l ry i n the,p riseiPl`.!: ties. In general the. most complete arringementai been made in the Russian army for the aubsisteticc troops. As last year, 60,000 or 70,000 teem' of co °/ ee T d will he employed for the nveyance of ovii ~ OPI ' re-- Bessarabia. CONSTANTINOPLE, lIANCIi I°' Since our last letter some suppli es of cot's hare. b! go received here, so that the appreh e n s i ons o f famine are!,l.ot so great. The Divan has frequent meeting.. she On the 28th there was an extraordinary Coundi a , 00 1.. which all thegreat men of th e em pi re wa i te d on to the tan, who intends to take the field, to lay before 14 0 , measures that had been resolved upon. The Beet 01 ' Se w ships of war s a il e d on t h e 7 t h to t h e Ch anne l, law to, past many t w roo he pe nce ha th ve ey bee ar n e em to bar go ked by h i er: to Sstria Adrianople. We have nothing new from the theatre of war since, occurrences near Bazardjik. As this letter says nothing of the events at Sitelta i ' they seem to have been known bat to few people at ce stantinop!e. BRUSSELS, AT ML 4 ' In the Second Chamber of the States General two 130 1 messages were read, the one accompanying a new ge e° d chapter of the third book of the Ordre de Procedure , l the other modifications of so me c h a pt ers o f th e c ivil Numerous petitions for the redress of grieyanocoP, • t against some of the taxes propo se d i n th e decennial budget, were referred to the committee of petitions. • ANTWERP, APRIL We have another terrible act of piracy to relate. Cap' Min Neal, of the American ship the Paris, which hoe Alf" rived here from Batavia, reports that the fine American thIP tie Topaz, bound from Boston to India was attacked by 8 Pirate off St. Helena ; after taking out a great part of eke cargo the pirate set fire to the ship, and would- net " Lke out a single man of the crew. Will this horrible air° remain unpunished, and will not not the maritimePoli er ! of Europe adopt effectual measures against the band it " who infest the seas? On this occasion we think it pop . to add, that proceeding s a re go i ng on b e f o r e the judic l4l authorities in this city against the pirate Smith, who is absent (contronace). Accounts from Frankfort speak of the assembling o f 1 ; 4 Austrian army of observation on the frontiers of Se rf-- and Bosnia during the present year. As the late triumphant majorities in the House of Lords no longer admit a doubt of the success et . that wise and just measure—the Bill fur the Relief of the Catholics, we, at length, have leisure to ad' vert to a current report that another highly into resting discussion is likely to take place on a Sub' ject intimately connected with Church discipline , viz. a recent addition to the number of Bishops, with out the usual formalities of a conge d'6lire, the it" tervention of a Dean and Chapter, or announceme nt in the Gazette! Rumour states that a Reverend Gentleman, 10 1 °' from infancy, could never pronounce the word' " noli Episcopari," happened to find himself some time since in Paris, attain the fullness of charity t°' wards his Anglo-Parisian countrymen persuaded himself it was of great importance to their spiritua l welfare that there should be an English Protestan t . Bishop of PARIS ! Having blended historical with his theological studies, he discovered in the course cd his reading, that one BONAPARTE, at no very re mote period of ‘var and revolution, placed an iron crowll on his own head, and thence formed the idea, ill these " piping times of peace," of ensconcing own brow in a mitre. BONAPARTE, however, gave solemnity to his pro' ceeding by calling in the aid of the POPE, but the Rev. Gentleman neither expecting aid from his Holl.l ness nor the English Episcopacy, after much cogitv tion turned his thoughts and steps towards Scound, Voted Agst. • I Did not rote. Total. 8 140 1 3 13 ' a 14 2 8 •• • 13 1 24 13 21 1 2 4 23 23 316 [NO OP TTI ROMAN CA- M 4. PEERS )ND READI Clifford (: Monson Scarsdale Vernon Tyrone (Marquis of WaterfOrd, in Ireland—minor) Dorchester (minor) Thurlow Brodrick Bolton Northwick (too late) Itibblesdale Moore (Marquis of Drogheda, in Ireland—lunatic) Cary•fort (Earl of Carysfort, in I reland—l u untie) Ardrossan (Earl of Egliuton, in Scotland—minor) Ponsonby, of Imokilly (in South America) Gardner (minor) Harris Prudhoe Glenlyon tiiffbrd (minor) Penshurst (Strangford, in Irc. land—in Brazil) De Tabley (minor) BISHOP. Bangor (Magendie) Roman Catholic) ,minor) , SCOTCH PEER. !Earl of Rosebery IRISH PBERS. Marquis of Headfort Earl of Bandon (never took bis seat) Viso°Mit Co?Et (too late). Of those who had voted English Scotch for the question within Irish the I ist eight years Bishops Of those who had voted knglish against the question {(Scotch within the tame period Irish Bishops Of those who lately suc ceeded to the Peerage, English or who had Toted on Irish the question during the Bishops above period Catholic Peers, - Minors, „, ...... Total I LIST 01 nllO DID NOT TOTE ON TRF, TROLIC RELIEF OrKE. Norfolk (Roman Catholic) MARQUISiER, l'ownshend (lunatic) A bercorn (minor) Shrewsbury (Roman Catholic) Huntingdon (minor) Pembroke Lindsey (minor) Sandwich (minor) Berkeley (will not take his Feat) Coventry Stanhope Harborough Pomfret Portsmouth (lunatic) ligr.emont Cornwallis Abergavenny Beverley Cadogan Craven ;minor) Cathcart ISCOUNTN. Courtenay (abroad) Sidney Combermcre (in India) BARONS. Aug' ley De la Zouch Stourton (Roman Catholic) it. John (minor) Petre (Roman Catholic) Arundel (ditto) Dormer (ditto) Stafford (ditto) PRICES OF STOCKS THIS DAY AT ONE O'CLOCK. Bank Stock 3 per Cent. Red. ... ...... 8654%% i Old Annuities — 3 per Cent. Cons. 87% % 4 'New Ditto 87K 3)4 per Cent Ditto Red. • - 95%% Ditto rioo 2d. 58 56 pm. 4 per Cent. 1024% Ditto Small ...... 2d. 58 56 pm. Ditto, 1826 Bank L. Ann. 19% I, Bank lbr Account — India Stock — India for Account — Ditto Bonds 50 pm. Cons. for Acct. 873/2%34 PRICES OF IRISH STOCKS, DUBLIN, APRIL 5, Bank Stock Consols, 3 per cent. Gov. Stock, 3% per cent. 951 i National Ditto — Ditto, New 95% ;Patriotic Ditto — 4 per Cent lols Hibernian! Bank — Gov. Deb. 34 per cent.... Ari• 'Provincial Ditto — Royal Canal Stock 42 ' Royal Irish Mine Grand Canal Stock Imperial Mine . I City I)eb. 4 per cent. — Mining Co. of Ireland — Ballast Office Deb. 4p. c. Commercial Buildings — MAILS. Arrived. Due. Arrived. Du O America 1 I 0 Hamburgh 0 O Brazil 1 Buenos A yree 1 Dublin 0 1 Leeward Island, ... 0 1 Flanders 0 0 Lisbon 0 1 France .... 0 0 Malta 0 O Gottenburgh ' 1 0 Mexico 1 Guernsey & Jersey.. 0 1 Waterford 0 HIGH WATIR AT LONDON BRIDOZ TO-MORROW. Morning ...41 minutes after 8. I Evening ... 9 minutes after '7