The Sun. — London, England, 1858-04-13 00:00:00

t It was true we were carrying on hostilities at Canton, but :ceded thestate that they have t a k en very im these were not of such a nature as to call for so great an portent steps in present this to dtrection. It is but d ue t o th e nava l administration of the Duke of Northumberland in 1852 to extra expenditure. He believed that thereev as a great t de to say that the better manning of our navy occupied no sire on the part of the higher classes they this coun country small share of his attention. He appointed a committee, keep up as large a standing army as cou ld , h and they took advantage of the state of feeling wii l :: i e t h h t e recent eof t e te _ composed of the most able and experienced naval-officers, one of them of the highest standing Sir R. Dundas-of ploits of the army in India had created e mind . whose services I am happy to add I standing-Sir enjoy the le in order to further their ends. Public attention Pao!) • tags, to inquire into this important subject. That advan had recently been directed to the state of our barrack ac committee made its report very shortly after the Duke of commodation, and the Duke of Cambridge had taken ad- Northumberland retired from office, and in that report vantage of that to call upon the people to exert a pressure p, this house, in order that more money might b e o b- were embodi e d t wo most important recommendations. The n tined. If the Commander-in-Chief had taken the trouble first of those recommendations was the adoption of a to see what barracks had already cost this country, he (Mr. system of continuous service men-that is to say, of men Williams) doubted whether he would have pressed for who should enlist for a longer period of years than usual more money. He (Ur. Williams) had moved some time and receiving more than the ordinary rate of pay. The since for a return of moneys expended in barracks. Through second recommendation of the committee was that we the destruction of papers which had taken place when the should adopt the principle of a marine militia by raising a Houses of Parliament were burnt, he bad obtained returns body of men, enlisting them in the same way as the land only from the year 18.34, and by these he found that since militia, upon the voluntary system, ant requiring that that time 7,450,000/. had been expended upon barracks, they should be annually exercised. This force the corn- In addition to this it should be borne in mind that there mittee proposed should form a body of men who, in case was in England, at the close of th e war, b arrack accommo- of any national emergency, might at any moment be called dation for more than twice the n um b er o f men which had upon to man our ships. Both of those recommendations composed our army. And he wou ld a l so remind the house were carried into effect under the naval administr a ti on o f that this 7,000,0001. included neither warming the hos- the right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle while in pitals, furniture, nor ba rrac k s f or marines. Into these the government of Lord Aberdeen ; and I think I may sly, matters there should be inquiry, for it was clear that had without exaggeration, that they constitute by far the most not a system of jobbing prevailed, the soldiers ought now impo rtant ste p s w h ich hav e been taken in the direction to to be furnished with p roper accommodation. There was which lam adverting. (Hear.) Another important step another point too to which he would venture to call at- w . h e ich e l believe u . i t, for to w ri a le s u s t u e bs e the ue right tl t to n n . barone tall d tention. There were at the present time no less than 3 6 12 generals in the army, and 33 in the marines. A few years the the m placing of ships round our coasts gn in y connex . ion with since and there were b ut three in the marines. These 346 the Coast g uard , and the str eng th eu i ng o f t h e reserve to be e C generals did not i nc l u d e those of the Indian army. He was constituted and the naval vod by the Coastgua rd. lunteers as they By y are called- - weans of the Coastgnard generals did not include those of the Indian army. He was I voluntej- as they are called- -but oast g uard which in always willi ng th at men who had served the country i n any fact forma marine militia-we have at this moment a re department should be duly rewarded ; but these men were serve which in case of emergency might at once be called promoted to the rank of generals simply out, and I believe I dnotwhen Istate ** e exaggerate through favour. And th e same state cif things prevailed in the navy. In necessary, we might, owing to that reserve, within a eer y were am certainly last year there were 316, and the number now to be pro think, at all events, within a month t g vided for in these estimates was no less than 345. Thus fleetofnot l . - - - Pit to sea a c h annel leas than 20 line-of-battle ship. (Elear, hear.) we had two generals for every regiment, and an admiral They would, however, consist in a great degree of what are technically called " block ships," which are old 74's, and and a half for every large ship afloat. He would also call attention to the subject of the army clothing. The esti which are not fit to cope with the more modern vessels in point of cannon. The house will moreover observe that mates were not even made out so as to show what the re sult of the recent change of system had been, with the ex the force to which I have just adverted would be available , caption of the case of the Guards, and there we found that only in case of national emergency, and that those volun- , the clothes cost 30 per cent. more than they did when the Duke of Wellington was colonel of the regiment. He be. tears could be called ou t under no other circumstances lieved that. in this matter great jobbing and bribery pre- Neither could the coastg uar d f or any other purpose be vailed. Upon many other points he could have addres se d o iverted from its ordinary duties; and I for one maintain the house, but he would not weary them with details. He that it is not consistent with our national dignity or our hoped that the noble lord who was lately at th e h ea d o f th e national 'safety' that we s h ou ld not have the means go v e rnment would give some re ason f or th e recent rap i d of sending ships to sea for any other purpose than increase of the estimates, and that the right hon. gentle- that for which the reserve has been created. (Hear, hear.) male opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would re- How, then, are we t o d ea l w i th this most important point? member that it was this very ques ti on o f prov i ding for the lam in hopes we may be able to do so in an efficient man estimates which cost him his office when he was last in nor by the judicious extension of the system of continuous power. He believed that these matters ought to receive tar vice men. (Hear. hear ) I cannot too strongly lament the careful investigation of the house, and he therefore the course which was taken by the rigbt hon. baronet oppo moved thit the army and navy estimates be referred to a site hat year in allowing no less than 3,000 men serving cox select committee. He merely proposed that this commit- board our ships, and enlisted as continuous service men, tee should inquire into the extraordinary increase in these to be discharged from the navy, and thus lost to the items, and report the result of their; investigations to the country. (Hear, hear.) lam unwilling to speak of house. the conduct of the right honourable baronet in the lan- Mr. KERSHAW seconded the motion. guage of censure, and I am perfectly well aware of the Sir J. PAKINGTON declined following the hon. mem- pressure which was exercised upon the Government bar through his statements, many of which had, in his lest year by the cry of economy which was raised opinion, little er no reference to the motion. He felt bound throughout the whole of the country. I cannot, however, to oppose that motion, and he trusted that the house would help wishing that the right hon. baronet had had the wis agree with him that it would not be expedient to refer the dons and the firmness to say, in answer to that cry, that military and naval estimates of England to a select cons. the great int eres t o f E ng l an d oug h t not to b e tampered mittee, with, and that the nation ought not to have receded from The house divided-- the bargain into which it hal entered. (Hear, hear.) We For the motion For Mr. Williams' amendment 23-137 allude a reserve force of between 23,003 and 24,00 conti nuous service men. U n der the p ressure o f t h e cry of THE NAVY ESTIMATEn. economy, however, the Government sig n ifi e d t o th ose men The house th en we e t i n t o comm i ttee on these estimates, that any of th e m ho wished to have their discharge might Sir J. PAKINGTON said,-It will be in the recollec- obtain it. The practical result wasthat out of 5,000 or 6,000 Lion of the committee that when I moved ce r t a i n v o t es on of them who happened to be in our home ports no less than 3,000 were lo s t t o th e coun t ry, and that number has n e v er account of the navy esti ma t es I th en s t a t e d t h at I s h ould consider it my d u ty, b e f ore any f urt h er grants of money since been made up, (H ear , h ear .) B ut t h at i s not all, were asked for, d e lib era t e l y t o cons id er t h e amount of the The worst consequ ence o f th e un h appy step which was taken by the late Government was the moral effect which estimates which th e l a t e G overnment h a d su b m i tted, and it produced upon the men themselves. It was regarded by them in the light of a b reac h o f f a ith . Th ey s aid, "You to submit them on the p ar t o f h er M a j es t y ' s present advi sera in such a shape a s we , a ft er f u ll cons id erat i on, m i ght have enlisted us f or a per i o i o f 10 years. W e are st i ll mil think Parliament oug ht t o sanc ti on. W e h ave s i nce g i ven ling to serve y o u; y e t you t e ll us to go a b out our b us i ness. ' (Hear, hear.) The result ha been most unfortunate. We our best attention to the subject, and now I trust I may must endeavour to retrace our course, and, if possible, to receive the indul g e nce o f th e commi tt ee w hil e I proceed regain the position whi c h we occup i e d . I n the attain to explain as briefly and clearly as I can in what respect amountsmeat m of that as objectthe number we have o t h t e o e s o o n m t i e n extent uou s s eve o succeeded, n we are of opinion that some reduction may be made in the oat present to about '22,000. The aim of those estimates of the late Government, and in what respect we who era intrusted with the management of the naval think it impossible with prudence to make any reduction, affairs should be, as it appears to me, while maintaining in which case it will be my d u ty t o as k f or t h e whole ex- the minimum amount o f f orce necessary f or the pro ' penditure they proposed. Th e comm itt ee w ill un d erstand the etlon and service of th e countr y, seamen should be enters d f or co to take care that a ll i that I referred princip a lly t o th e fi rs t vote w hi ch I shall hear.) There must be a marg i n, for moss service. (H ear the committ ee w ill have to place in their hands- -namely, th a t f or th e num b er see that circumstances alter calculations, and, for in of men and for the wages of seamen and marines. Now, stance, WU.° pressure upon us on account of the China war undoubtedly, the hon, gentleman who just divided the were to cease, we should be able to reduce the naval force house on the question of referring these estim a t es t o a corn- in the Indian an d Chi nese waters to the amount at which stood four years ago , an d consequently we should b mittee is perfectly right in sa yi ng th a t th e nava l force pro- it enabled to red uce th e vo t e w hi ch I shall ask the house to posed by the late and adopted by th e presen t G overnment sanction. The strength of the navy must, of course, sr is a very large one. It is, in fact, a larger force than that according to the state of public affairs, and there must submitted of late years; it is a larger one than was proposed always be a margin which should consist of ance service men, w ith w h om we may deal without pro that in the opinion of the p resen t G overnment our rede non-coutinu- last year ; but lam bound t o sa y , a ft er f u ll consideration, clueing the bad effect whi c h th e step taken last ye ar no p questionably- did produce. Beyond that margin the present cessors took a bold and wise course in making that recom- Government is decidedly of opinion that the entire force mendation to Parliament, and we cannot consistently with of seamen should consist of men entered for continuous our sense of duty propose any reduction in that force. service, and this very day I have given directions that (Hear, hear.) I think I shall b es t di sc h arge t h e task which every means s h ou ld b e used to increase the number of men entered as fast as possible np to a given amount. I ulna now devolves upon me by being perfectly frank and open now s - ate to the committee what is the opinion of the pre with the committee. I propose, then, to lay before them sent Government upon another point, in which opinion I the reasons which influenced the present Government in anticipate the concurrence of every member of the house, adopting so high anestimate ; and when I harestated what viz., that we ought never to be without a Channel fleet. is the course we think necessary on this most important (Hear,) Ido not think it is consistent with our position, subject I believe the committee will not hesitate now, and with our national dignity or safety, that we should. have never will hesitate, to vote whatever money may be neces- no naval force at all in the Channel. I remember when eery to uphold the naval power of this country. (Hear.) my right hon. friend opposite proposed his estimate last On a former occasion I explained the real difference be tween the votes prop o s e d by th e l a t e G overnment for the o ft he e state of affairs n in el a Chins. I llow the pressure of wages of seamen and marine& in this and last year. The affairs in China at that time was severe, but I venture to number of men proposed for 1858-9 is, in fact, 3,000 more think that no Government should under any circumstances than the ultimate strength which was taken last year. The leave the Channel without a ereenron. Her nbnate's vote originally moved this time twelve months by the right Gevernment hold it to be their first duty, without any loss hon. baronet opposite was fur a force of 33,0,0 seamen, of time that can be avoided, to establish a Channel squa -15,00e marines, 2,000 men, for surveying purposes, and, I dron not only for the protection of our shores, but for the think, 5,700 men for the coastguard service. At a subse- exercise of our dB-ars and men. The hon. and gallant w h en elementary period of the year the late Government moved asu - her foi Southwark . - wit agree with me, I am sure, when plementary note for '2,0)0 seamen ; so that the total forc P e I say for tthe introduction of steam into our navy is so re for 1857-8 amoanted to 35,000 officers, seamen, and boys, cent, and our officers as yet so unaccusto ted to its apoli -2,000 men for surveyieg purposes, and 5700 f o r the coast- cation, that it is essential there should be a squadron for guard, amounting in the !whole, 55,700 men. The late l • eve ntions and practice which shall enable officers and men Government have proposed, and it is now my duty to pro- to become practically acquainted with the new system. pose, that this force shall be increased by an addition of (Hear.) We have an example before us set by our oppo -2,000 officers and sailors to man our ships, and of 1,000 for site neighbours in France, which we cannot with prudence the coastguard service. Hon. members will observe that neglect. They do not allow their coasts to be leftPdefence on the face of the vote the number of men for the coast- less, nor do they allow their officers and sailors tore main guard service appears to [be raised from 5,700 for last without opportunities for practice. On the contrary, with year to 7,38) for 1858-9. I wish, however, to explain great prudence, and with his usual sagacity, the Emperor that, although there is an apparent increase to this of the French has assembled at Toulon orce wc wil extent, th e rea l diff erence, as I mentioned amounts form a squadron of evolution, and o l before hi th h e pre only to I,oao. The addition of 680 men is owing sent summer has passe I awarthat we shall see in our own to a transferfrona the civil to the naval portion of the coast Channel a equadron worthy of England and her naval guard service. It was the policy of the right hon. gentle- reputation assembled for the same praisew, rthy object. man opposite, and I believe a wise policy, to get rid of the H • •- • eving told the committee the number of men which we civil portion of the coastguard establishment; and there- shall ask them to grant, I will now proceed to explain how fore this apparent increase of 680 men only consists in th a e we shall dispose of therm I have said we ask for 2,00 ad transfer from one branch of the coastguard service to ditional men, in order to complete the manning of our other. The whole adrition, as I have said, is 2,000 sai lo rs and 1,000 coastgu ire men, and the vote which I shall v ships. Of those 2,000 tenon 1,621 are already on board ship, to place in your hands for re ; ment of the wages amount s .e leaving 379 to be obtained. I have explained that, in order _ to 2,401,5.)111. The state of the case as respects the ro e s tO complete the hat hour ships in commission wo want borne on the books of the ships is this :-When I move, tti. 1,318 men more than we have. Deduct from that number vote on occount I stated that the men actually on the the balance of 379 to be gains 1 out of the increased vote, to •ks a ere considerably beyond the number voted for and there will remain 939 more than the increased esti -1857:- -I think to the extent of something like 1.000. mate, a supposing all the ships to be fully manned. For the squadron, which we hope to fit out in the course of the summer ,nn'wlaiic_shall require 1,500 more men and also 1000 That number has increased, and we have now actually on board our ships 1,621 more men and boys than were voted for relef met ila m m o ts e t t it effected during this year. That last year. Assuming, therefore, that the committee will gives 3,4:3 we ask, but within the next three the increased vote for which grant the vote whicl shall now propose, there will, in months there will arrive fact, remain a balance of (oily 879 1 -eamen ou t of the addi- from China, the Mediterranean, t d he othe t r stations ships tional 2,000 to be voted. On the other hand, at this pre- whose craws will be paid off lo an sent moment, in order to complete the manning of our Therefore, after having provided for the il r e e l' 2;e 4 n B i B en iu ts ' o n i ships in commission, wo want 1,318 mote sailors than we the ships now in commission, for such additional ships a s now have in those ships. The first topic to which I shall wo h ope to have soon in the Ch annel, and 1,000 for for n call the attention of the committee in connexion with th e re li e f s, we shall have a balance out of the vote we nom ask proof I hope to give as to the necoss;ty of the large increase for of 49 men retnaining in England That is the ex plena proposed i n th e num b er o f men w ill b e th e p resen t s t a t e o f t i on I have to give of the vote, w hi c h i s a l arge one, I a limit, our forces in East India and China. In 1856, only two I wi-ll I could consistently with my duty have propos d a years ago, our force in those se as consisted of 17 ships, lower amount, but I trust the explanation I have given carrying 333 guns, and manned by 3,151 sailors. The force will convince the committee that it is not unnecessarily in East India and China at present consists of 75 ship', large in order to mainta:n the navy in a state of efficiency. carrying 953 guns, with a force of 11,863 men. Several I hope the policy of this country will ever be, while adept of these ships are now coming home, and six are OR in its force to the varying circumstances of the time, to their way home, carrying 154 guns, withl,6S7men• but that maintain the navy in an effective condition, to keep up an will leave on the East India and China station a force of effective Channel squadron and further to have a reserve 61 ships. carrying 789 guns, and manned by 10,206 sailors. of available seamen to man our ships upon an emergency, It will be seen that this is a very large increase upon the without the recurrence of so humiliating and unsati-f ' force we have had at any previous period in these seas, and, astate of things as we have lately witnessed at our apetnqrsY. in fact, amounts to a large proportion of th whole force ( Hear,hea r .) With this explanation I shall now proceed to grant. which we are now about to ask the committee tool the second vote, for . victuals to tip fleet, which is am happy to say that a very great increase in our force has 1,027, 1571., being an increase of 165,109 t , upon the vote of also taken place on the African coast for the disposalssresion of last year. The committee will at once see that the amount the slave-trade. lam quite sure that no of oar o f this vote depends upon the preceding one, for if the naval force could be more acceptable to this house or u nmtore number of men be increased the amount of charge for their in accordance with public sentiment in this co rey. victuals also increases. We do not propose to make any Nevertheless, in calling upon Parliament to vote the nec change in reference to the votes intervening between votes sary supplies for the naval service of the year, this is a s. 2 and 8, but I have to request the attention of the com item which we are bound to take into account. In 1835 (to mittee while I explain the intentions of Government as to go no further back) we had upon the coast of Africa 20 t t t e e vote No, 8, and the reasons why we have deviated from ships, carrying 134 guns and 1,9'29 men. We have now there a fo:ce of' 29 ships, with 215 guns and 3,353 men, so than they ofi the late Government, and propose a smaller vote that. in fact, out of the whole naval force in this countr n to sabruit. We have not arrived at that y determinyat7oe without most anxious oonsideratien. I have committee the necefeity there are at this moment, including the crews of ships m ayveured n t • which are on their way home from India and China, be of maintaining o o l u m r P n r a e v ss yr n a t t h a e t n o; s e a ffi Ti c atl i . h e d ' : t e :t o il e a a o t e o t s u i h o l o m b y l e t . i tween 15,000 and 16,000 of our sailors now upon the Afri- lieve they will agree with m a e wher e have nourreiguliptotno can and the East India and China stations. While I think be done with the utmost practicable it will be satisfactory to the committee to hear of the (Hear.) With my short tenure of offic r e e strength of these squadrons, I shall not conceal from them imply anything that might appear to bo a that the position of this country at home has not been preceding Adrninistiations, but I must ow e i: n i fully sati s f ac t ory . I thi n k it f ar b e tt er t o make this impression that our dockyards are not conduct have tin avowal and ask Parliament to deal with it as they think that strict regard to economy which pis de l with fit than to attempt to conceal facts which must be known (Hear, hear.) I hope the committee to every G overnmen t i n E uro pe, and are, I believe, only stand what I mean. I think it is ono of the first u d n utr unkno wn t o mem b ers of th i s h ouse. (Hear, hear.) Until o f any Mi n i ster who is intrusted with the affairs of the within a very recent period we possessed no ships of war navy to conduct those affairs wth the moat r gni econoni which were not employed on foreign stations or in distant , that is consistent with efficiency, (Hear, hear.) Extravay portions of the empire. We had as a consequence no vessels gance does not promote efficiency. (Hear, hear.) Idu not the services of which could be madeimniediately available. intend to imply that in proposing 12,190 men for the ser- Now, however, we have in our harbours some of the most vice of the clock 'arils, the late Government laid them noble ship s th a t ever fl oated upon the ocoan-(betir) -and selves open to a char g e of ex t ravagance. I am unwilling we are adding rapidly to their number. (Hear.) I cannot, to propose without the clearest conviction of its naceasity nevertheless, too emphatically call upon the committee to a vote which has no precedent in our naval estimates. I bear in mind that ships are quite useless unless wo have greatly respect the desire of the hon. member for Lambeth the means wherewith to man them, (Hear, hear.) To the for economy, but I think his idea that we can now go hack difficulties by which this important question is beset every to the naval estimates of the time of the Duke o f Welling one who has filled the p oe t which I have now th e honour ton or of Lord Grey is quite chimerical. (Hearn Groat to occupy has had his attention most earnestly direeted• changes have taken place since then in our carat system I have said that we have now in our harbours some of a nd I aui perfectly convinced that we cannot go back to the ' itallfeormmostthneobleshis that over float e d, b u t th en I must naval establishment of former . rla,ys. Lot me remini the they are not read y committee f . that owi ng t o th e want of mot hon. gentleman and the committee of the wonderful change for inst or immediate service, The Renown, made in late years in the size of our men-of-war. (Hear, anern is at present lying . at Spithead with one fn. hear.) It was only the other day - that our large nne-of gate and two corvettes ; ude u a t sh e i s n o t as y e t fully manned, battle ships, such as the Neptune, Caledonia, Britannia, notwithstanding that e cure the r«misite number o7urs have been made to pro- and St. Vincent, which we thought the grandest ever months. We have the Marlbmore o n u f o o l f he r fo r th e last four launched, were only 2,60 tons, but what is the tonnage of Portsmouth har bour, waiting to relieve the RoyDael:Annlpti)eonritt inthe Mediter- our first-rate ships now ? The Duke of Wellington, Marl racerin, and the Euryalus atborough, Royal Albert, and the ship ships of theirrespective classes which were ever e two finest 380') or 4,009 tons. I saw last week on the cloaks at ctioonnstructed Portsmouth a new ship, the Victoria, which will lately launched are but they are unable to proceed to their destine to the want of men. Although, therefore, the ntusuCingt exceed them. At this moment there is a 32-gun l ig r r ie ea e t te ly , men for the service of the present year exceeds thautovmorbte:lr the _Diadem, which le 2,500 tons-that is to say, n illiu lest year, still it actually falls short by 1,300 of the 1 r 0) tons o f th e s i ze of our three-deckers some years ago. required to man the vessels now in com m i ss i on i n our liar- These great c h anges i n the size of our ships m mit necessarily hours. (Hear, hear.) While, however, I make that state i a ami al n ig i:Epdcascastorthmeee a p sin atanenstarhi expenditure d pdst ; oc y aft issao ourni ) proportionate dockyards, p s o t r e t a i m o n into e t o meat, I think I may confidently say that in some important the exception , but now all our new respects this country is in a better position with respect to increaseour N e navy, y e .i in the hs few tebee y l e r a ' in r n s t ip . I b hove whichmmittee ie scarcely bower the introduction of the manning of her navy than that in which she stood 801:08 time since, and I believe it requires nothing more' aware of the given n t o o rm tCL P than a fair degree of liberality upon the part of the Hoqse steam has navy of England. I hold in of Commons to place that important subject epon it most ;my hand a return showing th aggregate years. In 1644, onl 1 lam also bound in justice our ships in a series of 1.8` ) th 1 et year before the horse-power o aetisfactery footing. (Cheers ) y 4 years ago, to the three Administrations which have immediately pie- thet power was 2 3,379. In m e e a Russian war, it was 44,250; and now, in 1858, it has risen • had never heard such a good and clear speech as that just to 99,512. The committee will bear in mind the gigantic delivered. (Hear, hear.) He had spoken so well of the expenditure and the vast additional labour occasioned by propriety of maintaining and keeping up the discipline this change. I am sure the hon. member for Lambeth of the navy and its efficiency, that he might almost have himself will admit it is absolutely impossible to construct supposed him a sailor himself. (A. laugh.) The right hon. and repair our present .gigantic steamships in the same baronet had also gone far to do away with the stupid no dockyards in which were constructed and repaired our tion that it was improper to discuss these naval estimates smaller sailing ships of some years ago. In the course for fear foreigners might make use o f the informatiod to of the last six years the m ac hi nery f or our ships and our our injury. The right hon. baronet had stated that the dockyards has cost us no less than 3,687,0001. Of navy never was in a bettor condition. That was the state course, the Russian war was the main cause of that went made by all First Lords of the Admiralty, neverthe expeaditure ; but we cannot maintain our navy in a less he quite agreed with the statement to-night, that we proper condition without incurring an expenditure to never had so fine a navy, or a better set of ships than at which we have hitherto been unaccustomed. I have this moment. (Rear, hear.) But the navy never would already expressed my regret that the late Government have reached that state of efficiency if they hal no discus took, under pressure, a step which deprived us of 3,600 aims upon its management. There was, it might be re of our seamen, and I no less regret that under the membered, first, the old Navy Board ; then there was a same pressu: e they threw out of commission seven or eight surveyor appointed, who built ships without any bottoms. ships and several frigates last year, every one of which is (A laugh.) They had the old " tin pot" system ; hut then now being refitted for commission at great expense to the came the appointment of that excellent officer Sir Baldwin country. Ido not blame the late Government for having Walker, the present Surveyor-General of the Navy, than done so, and, in fact, admit that lam responsible for bay- whom, if they searched the country over, they could not ing contributed to the pressure under which they acted ; find a better. They had only to look at the stripe he had but if ever there was a case of penny wise and pound fool- sent ow, to see how much the country was indebted to ish, it was that throwing out of commission ships upon him. Upon the efficiency of the navy they might be well which we are now spending thousands upon thousands to satisfied, they bad four screw ships of the line, of 800- put them in sailing order. (Hear.) The whole strength of horse p ower — the Marlborough, the Royal Sovereign, our dockyards is now being applied to therepair of those Conqueror, and Renown. They had ono of 70)-horse ships which were last year thrown out of commission. I power—the Duke of Wellington. They had six screw am therefore justified in saying that the present pressure ships o f 600-h ors e power, three ships of 500 horse power, upon oar dockyards is exceptional, and that increases my and five f rom 400 to 450-horse power. All these ships reluctance to propose an unprecedented amount of force in were afloat, ant that was the state of their steam navy. our dockyards until lam satisfied of its necessity. I can- Brat they h a d also others repairing, converting, snit build not touch this part of the question without requesting the ing. Of these they bad two ships (the Victoria and the attention of the committee to a subject which I know has Howe) each of 1,000-horse power; five ships of 800- for several years attracted the attention of naval men as it horse p ower , and seven ships from 600 to 400-horse has that of the present Government during the short time power. Th e house would readily suppose that to be a they hare been in o nee. I allude to that most objection- very tine navy ; but, notwithstan ling that, he dis g able and unwise practice of commissioning our ships for proven of discontinuing the arming and building of ships, only three years. (Rear, hear.) It is most costly and most for th e F renc h Government were on the alert, as they injurious to discipline. In proof of that I beg to state a f ew wou ld see f reed the following list of the French navy, facts as to the refitting of two of our largest line-of-battle which h e h a d received from a French naval officer, of sailing ships. I have not been able to ascertain the cost of which th ose i n commission in February, 1858, were—Bre refitting steamships ; but no doubt it is greater than that tag ne , 130 guns; Algesiras, 90 guns ; Aroole, 01 guns ; of refitting sailing ships. I have here a statement of the Eylau, 90 guns; Prince Jerome, 90 guns; Ulm, 90 guns; expense of refitting the Queen from the time of her first Austerlitz, 90 guns; Tage, 90 guns; Donawerth, 80 guns; commission in 1815 d own t o 1452 , an d o f refittin g th e Tourville, 80 guns. The Fiend' had two ships afloat of Rodney, one o f our l arges t sa ili ng ships, from her first corn -114 guns, and one of 130 guns. Altogether they bait 23 mission iu 1840 d own t o th e l ast year she was in commis- large screw ships of the line a fl oat, and 15 repairing. con sion, viz., 1e56, and this is the result :—The expense of venting, or building. Now, although that fleet might not each refitting the Queen was 19,9231. and of each r efitting be s o s tron g a s the British, they should recollect that they the Rodney 22,9961. So that the mean expense of refitting often required two or three fleets to watch one fleet, so as each of them wee 21,45tt. If each o f the m w e re refitted to . revent it from doing mischief. There should be no re three times in 10 years each cost three times th a t a m oun t : laxation in building screw ships, for sailing vessels were now and if refitted twice each cost twice that sum. We find that of no u se wh a tever ; but while they were building these the mere saving of one refittal of one of such ships i n eo fine ship s , it wa s necessary to give one caution more—viz , years is a saving of 21,452/. ; and if to this we a dd th e th a t th e y mus t recollect that probably in ten years' time additional cost of refitting steam-ships we shall easily per- they would be superseded by new and improved arrl more ceive that the country would save a vast amount of m one y formidable armaments. Ships would be built with it ,n if the practice of commissioning for merely three years, sines and iron batteries against which, if they brought an which necessitates such constant refittings, wer e a b o li s h e d, ordinary three-decker such as they wore now building, she (Hear.) It is notorious that our large line-of-battle ships would be entirely useless. Let thorn take a frigate of 30 are not refitted in less t h an n i ne mont h s, an d th at some o f guns anti fit h er up as he had suggested, and then put our best naval officers are not satisfied unless the line-of- one of their present tbree-deekers against her with all her battle ship to which they may have been commissioned armament, and let them fire away, and see which would requires one year and a-half for refitting. In this way get the beet of it. (A laugh.) Yes, hon. gentlemen might half the time for which a ship is commissioned is often lost, taught, but it was nevertheless true. The right hon. be so that we find we are not only losing money by the system, ronet had said truly that ships were not the navy, and but that a large portion of the time for which ships are that was true. La men they they were deficient, and al commissioned is taken up ie petting them into proper though it had been denied, an order had been issued in order. A point arises here which cannot but be regarded May, 1857, by the Fir s t L ord of the Admiralty, giving per as one of con s id era bl e i mportance. If we ware to adopt mission for men and boys to discharge themselves from the permanently the system of commissioning ships for four navy. That was to be blamed; nevertheless the PrimeMini years—my own feeling would be for five years—but, at ster rather than the Ad m i ra l ty was in fault for that step. any rate, if we wore t o a ll ow th e ru l e of commissioning Th e P r i me Min inter should h are come down to the house ships for a longer time th an a t present, one of the results an d showed the necessity of keeping this fine force afloat. would necessarily be to produce a material effect on the The Secret ry of the Admiralty had given as a reason for t a h t e e o F f r t e h n e c h F LI , i a a v e y h . a a Her C Sir . C. a Woodlei er) t h h a i d s the pointed larg outlarge fo rtcheaoaft hPeeasirtir Ton a h e e d n P u r ale e r e o ts f e o f ffi t c h e e rs e d lE i e st e r r i s b o u f te t d h a e m n o av n y ithe ( f s i h e i a p r e would be diminished in proportion to the extension of the in 1 85 6 , The boo, awl gallant officer next complained of period of commission, and this raises a question which we the improper discharge of men who h a d come f o r war d i n are bound seriously to consider. lam not prepared defini- our hour of need, and whose places, when thus diseharged, tively to announce the intentions of the Government on it was difficult to fill when occasion arose. The next error the subject, but I thi n k it i s unquest i ona bl y one of those of the Government which h e p o i nte d out was, that they grave questions connected with the a d m i n i s tr a ti on o f t h e had not in many places screw ships iostea lof sailing yes navy which we are called on to consider, and I may say eels in commission, whereas screw ships, he contended, that it will receive our best attention. We are bound to ought alw ays to have the preference. When he had stated take care, not only of the pay and position of the officers, this last session he was pooh poohed ; but before the late but also of their efficiency, an d t o promo t e th e i r efficiency Government went out they had begun to act upon this it is desirable that they should be able to go to sea for a principle, and he WsB glad to find that the present Govern fair term of service. We think a longer period of went would do the same. All the best ships should be fully service than at present should be established, but at the manned, so that when a ship was out in commission she same time we see the difficulty arising from the position of could go alongside the flagship an d rece i ve h er f i rst draft of the officers. We h o p e , h owever, to be able at no distant men and marines, and by this means she might be got time to effect the improvement we desi re i n suc h a way ready for sea iu one month instead of lying five months. as to promote economy without injuring the prospects of The men to be drafted from the flatship would be contiou those gallant officers whose best interest s we are a l ~a ys ous service men ; but it was always best to allow them the bound to keep in view, (Hear.) In f ur th er illustration opportunity of volunteering if passibl e . If th e crews of of what I have said I may ment i on that there are at this ships were reduced, instead of being fully 'd off t moment nine ships in dock, not one of which has been in saving would be effected. Certain vessels which he a Crest commission more than three years, and they have a ll b een were paid off in 51,y 1856, an lon the 2) hof Junonamed commission. .t, te remitted at great cost to the country. If the system of five news arrived of the r ' ebell , ' .on in India. If that fleet had years' commission had been acted on, not one of these ships not been paid off they might have taken out the need have been fitted up as they had been at so great an drafted half their men, ant in less than4B hours g t e h n e s ' expense. (Hear, hear.) Having stated our views as to the could have asst out 1 0 ,003 or 12,000 men out to India ) ; system of commission, I shall now direct the attention of and let them fancy how many lives the timely arrival t f the committee to what I must call the unprecedented est.i- such a fleet would have caved. (Haaw, hear.) Not only mate of 12,190 men for the dockyards. I believe the so, but, this could have been done at a total cost of some largest dockyard establishment ever voted by Parliament 4,000/. to 6,000/ , instead of paying at the rate of 40/. tir was that of last year—viz , 10,850 men, being the same as , 50/. a head as we had done. He next combated the as ser had been voted in 1856-7; but now in 1853 the late Go- l tion that it, was unnecessary to give the sailors bounty, and swim:rent proposed to vote 12,190 men. I cannot help pointed out the good effects arising from the bounty given thinking that, on the whole, these excessive votes for dock- to soldiers. He complained of the a b o li t i on o f th e goo d yard establishments h ave b een subject to irregulerity. I l conduct pay given to seamen who had conducted them beg to call the attention of the right hon. gentleman the selves satisiactoril member for Halif ax (Si r C W ood ) to the fact that this yon for e i gn s t a ti ons, and asserted that faith should in every particular be kept with the mer e question of dockyard establishments was the subject of Patty officers should be allowed not ',illy the stripes but, inquiry before a committee of the House of Commons in the pay which attacheil to them. With respect to the 18IS, and that that committee made a distinct recommen- coast guerd, the present number eves 7,380, who were sup dation that there should be a permanent dockyard osta- Posed to be composed of the best class of seamen. But blishruent of 9,621 men, which rec ommen d a ti on was an- after serving fi ve y ears i n the coast guard they were not thorized by an o r d er in Council passed in 1850. Notwith- obliged to come forward to serve again ; and what was a standing that order in Council, however, we had last y ear man worth when for fifteen years be ha I been comfortably an establishment of 10,850 men, and this year we have had located on shore? (Hear, hear.) If the coast guard were a proposal for 12,190 men. Now, I cannot but thi n k th a t obliged t o serve a port i on of their time they wrestld volun it would be b e tt er e ith er t o repeal the order in Council or teer ; but at present they could get their pensions without to have an annual order in Council passed, and thus to go doing so. In the Baltic campaign he had found tha coast on in a business-like manner, than to be exceeding t h e guards and Welsh seamen most deserving men always fixed number of 9,621 men , t h us pract i cally setting aside , striving to snstaiu proper discipline , nil he was , y glad that the order alt , gather. (Hear, hear.) It is not the intern. l all the coast guard men for the future were to be s-amen, tion of the Government to ask in the present vete but this n-nilli not he time a?! at or,c—. Lie d2iil of titty for more than 10,e - 0 ) being Cie :Jew : :sr last yeer.°l eigtt ditye was not en digh, and measures should be titken The committee will see that for the reasons I some time to secure greater efficiency. In case of emergency, France age mentioned the present pressure on our dockyards just now would be able to man her fleet before we cotrid is exceptional. I am of opinion that, notwith s t en d_ man ours. W e must have a Channel Squadron, and man ing what I have said as to the increase of our ships, it--(hear, hear)—and if our present estimates would not the establishment will be found to be sufficient. do, we must have others. Whet we wanted was is Minis- What I propose, then, is that, instead of increasing the ter who would come down to the House of Commons anti establishment, we should take a vote of 50,0001. to be say, " Unless you give nee money enough to man the Chan spent on hired labour, and in making up extra hours. I eel fleet, you roust get some one else to rule the country, ought terstate that during the last three or four years, for I won't." (Laughte , and che ers. ) If a Minister were when we h a v e h a d an esta b l i shment of 10,850 men, that to matte such e s p ee ch as that, ho would be cheered from number has been exceeded by the employment of hired . one end of the house to the other, and from one end of the labourers, sometimes to the extent of 400 or 500 men. My country to the other. (Hear, hear.) He believed they proposal now, however, is that 50,0,01. shall be expended might now look forward to better days. (Hear hear. The on hired labour. Thi s i s 1 00,000/. more than the vote of constitution of the Admiralty wanted , reformi ng . The last year • but the actu a l i ncrease i s only 50,0001., there Admiralty was now under a First Lord who ought to be a being a diminution of 50,000/. upon th e amount proposed Secretary of State. He h a d fiv e advisers at the Admiralty by the late Gov ernmen t. (H ear, hear.) I must ado this andfi ve o th er adv i sers at Somerset-house. The Comp remark, however, that if at the clos e of the summer we troller of. the Victuallieg department, the Surveyor of the find that the money taken for tLis purpose is not enough, ' Navy, the Accountant-General, and the Storkeeper-Gene- I shall have no hesitation in coming to the house before ral—theme ere a t nernereet-house; and the gallant admiral Parliament prorogues to ask for other 50,0001 rather than Paid a high compliment to the character and efficiency of that any injury should accrue to the public service. (Hear, each of them. He urged that they should be allowed to hear.) The next vote to which I shall refer is that fur perform their ovvn duties and be meda responsible for them. naval stores. The vote for naval 'stores in 1857-3 was The First Lord of the Admiral 'y and his two naval ad -1,395,450/. The vote proposed by the late Government visers should look after the discipline of the fleet and all for 1858-9 was 1,164,7421. From this increased vote the the public establishments. If he wished to man a fleet of present Government proposes to deduct 7 e 00)/ (Hear, say ten sail of the line, his course would be sanple enough. hear.) This sum of 75,0001 is divided into three items, He would write to the Surveyor of the Navy to get ten Jn the first place, th ere i s 15,0001, whi c h it is proposed to sail of the line r eady; to the Comptroller of the Victual take off what are ca n o e genera l s t ores , There i e ne x t Eng i epartinent, to get provisions ready for ten sail of the 10,0001. for ship s t o b e b ui lt b y con t rac t or procured by line; to the Storekeeper-General to provide stores fur ten purchase. I cannot learn from all the inquiry I can m a ke sail of the line ; and to the Physician Of the net, to pro that there i s any prospect either of buinti e g chips by con- vide medi ca l o ff icers. B u t th e present plan of sending tract or of purchasing them, so that there scenic to be no Lords of th e Admiralty doo'n to Somerset House wet as necessity f or any such sum. (Hear, hear.) The largest much as to tell them that they were all rogues, and that portion of the amount deducted is 50,0001. for st e am ma - they had no confidence in them—(laughter — and there chinery. Th e vote proposee by the late Government f or fora they sen t a L or d o f th e Admiralty to look after and steam machinery was 300,0001. We propose, e s I h ave control them. Let a commission be appointed to inquire stated, to reduce it by 50,000/ , mating the whole sum into the mana g em e nt of the navy, and if it reported that 250,00. 1. (Hear, hear.) Dur . ine the last six years it was well managed, let it rentlin as it was ; but if it re we have expended nearly 4,000,00,4. on steam machinery. ported that it was n ot well managed, no one would then Now, I eay, let us by all means expend as much money venture to deny that it was time some change was male. On steam machinery' as may be really required ; but As an illust ra ti on o f the operation of the present routine, I beneve that all the ships now being prepared the gallant admiral related the correspolideec 3to which he for launching this year may be completed, and yet was subjected on being, the other day, appointed a full a reduction of 5 0,009/. be effected. (Hear, hear ) admiral. The S e cr e tary of the Admiralty senthim a writ- Before quitting thie subject I wish to st a t e th,,t, the Gov e rn ten letter, telling him he WAs an admiral and then sent went are of 0. Mien that, considering the cnornTous amount hitu a print e d l e tt e r to tell him ho was an admiral. of property which the country has acquired by au expendi- (Laughter.) Then came a letter signed by two Lords ef ture of nearly 4,0 0,000/., including the present vote, we . the Admiralty to toll him that he was an admiral. (lie - - are bound to see that it is properly c are d f or an d th a t the newel laughter) He then received a letter, telling him to country receives the fullest ben e fit f rom it, It i s therefore , hoist his flag, aril subsequently another letter, tell - i li a hi m our intention to issue a small cermuis ion of scientific men ; to lower his fl g, with other communications from the to investigate the condition of the machinery, and to re- 1 Accountant -Gener a l and the Admiral at Ports outh. port upon the best coarse to be taken with regard to it. ! (Laughter.) It was rill nonsense. (Cheers and lau al hter ). Ido not mean to imply that there is any neglect on the i He thought now that there was some chance of taught part of those who are charged with it. On the c ntrary, I being looked into and amended. Ile was lid to learn during the short visit I recently made to the d.ockyord ! that there were men enough in the shipicorn g in. home to everything I saw was of a nature to convinc e me thet the l man the Channel fleet, and that if not, the Firsi Lord of greatest care is taken of it; but Ido not thine that any. the Admiralty would come down to the house to ask for thing but good can arise from the dockyard officials being I more men. [Sir J. Pakington here gave, across the table, ma le aware that they are liable to have their conduct oc- some verbel explanaJoe which wo could Lot catch.] Sir casionally overlooked and supervised, and it is only a wise C. Napier continuo t, by observing that he was glad at all caution on our parts t o i ns ti tute some inquiry as to the events that we wer e to h ave a C hannel fleet—(hear, hear, best means of preserving in an efficient state that which and cheery)—and concluded with an expression of his Las coat the country so much money. (Hear, hear ) The gratitude to the house for having listened with so much next vote is vote 11, for new works. The vote in 1857-8 attention to his observations, which he feared were to was 578,415 e—the late Government proposed to make it many members somewhat tiresome. for this year 694,615/., but after having carefully gone SirJ. PAKINGTONsaid the hon. and gallant admiral had through all the items, it app.,ars to us that it may be re- reminded him of an orniesion, . The number of volunteers (laced to 585,8621, which will be a saving on the original at present enrolled was 5,80); of that number 4,600 had estimate of 108,756/. When we get to the vote in corn. been actually taken on heart ship----(hear, hear) —and were mittee I shall be prepare:l to give further explanations in well practised in gunnery. (Gh6ers ) regard to it, but it consists of a great many small items, Sir CHARLES WOODwhose enur e observations , op and I will only now allude to three of the largest-25,0 Cl.' Ira'e inaudible in the gall ery an d gre eted with loud for the purchase of land near Devenport, 15,000/. for the cries of " Speak up, speak d%" s ii , i were The right hon. goad of land near Hasler, and 15,00 1. for the dockyard tleman opposite in the observations he had made regard at Malta. lam not prepared to say that these vot es may ing the paying off of the continuous service, appeared not ultimately be lessened, but having inquired very entirely to forget the c ircumstances antler which that step closely into the works inj each " se, I do not see any had been taken. He would remind the committee that in reason why this money should be taken this year, or th a t Jaimary, 1857, when the estimates were proposed, wo were any harm will be produced by the postponem e nt o f th e in a state of the most profound peace with every European vote. The next vote on which we effect, a red uc ti on i„. ete po wer , ;m e the number of men then proposed to the house 17, for,the transport service. In 1e57-8 207,500/. was vo t e d f or the naval establishment was 33,000, which, for a peace under this head, and the late Government propo se d thi s establishment, certainly could root b e s aid to be small, it year to take 495,0001. The great difference between these being consitlerabty ; hi excess of any number ever voted two sums exists only in appearance and not in reality, for before, except in 1853, when the country was in actual art the vote of last year was found to be greatly insufficient, ticipetion of war. In the month of April, 18 7, the num and 200,C001., I think, ha ito be taken out of a surn voted her of men was aet u u - tr 7,000 in excess of what the Hous e for the Chinese ear, and therefore fairly applicable to th e o f C o mmons hail sanctioned, it being then 40,000, and it conveyan ce of troop s to China, to make up the deficiency, would, he thought, be in the ecollecon of the committee The present government are of opinion that we may riluce that the le.i , lors of all the rt parties, the present Chan this vote by 85,000e-45,000t. on freight, and 40000/. on cellor of the Ezelacquer, an g er t a honoble lord the mewl) w for the saving in coals consequent on that reduction,' Wear° the City of Lorlen, for instance . . strongly urged upon the euabled to d o thi s b y pay i ng of f several of the hir d steam- Government the necessity of e omy and retrenchment. transports employe,' ire China,' the places o f w hi c h will he Under those circuaraten-ces it was incumbent upon the supplied by her Majesty's troopships. The general result, Government, as sPoodily as possible, to brieg down the then, is this on vote Bwe propose a reduction of 5),0001, ; number of men to what had been voted by the House of on vote 10, or 75,000/. ;on vote 11, of 108,756/. ;on vote Commons, which was accordi ngly drone in the month of 17, of 85,00 M—the whole reduction as compared with th e May, by allowing a certain number of continuous service estimates of the late governme n t b e i ng 318 , 756 1. n o men wh o were anxious to the service to do so. excess of the original estimates over those of let 7-S I v a , Notwithstanding that r l' leave the excess over :Feet ii g, however,o 932,6011., not including the packet service, but the retitle- the numbers ye ted Nvas P d mains the ill about 3,00 , an certainly . titans which we make bring that excess down to 613,815/. right honourable gentl was in no way ju . ernan opposite . . Ihave now stated the general results at which her Ma jest 's fled in regarding the - ch of faith. Nor was t step as a branch ~. _ Government have arrived as clearly and concisely Y I it, th ° 1 as as e ion and gallant admiral supposed, any tits could without au - e - - 5' aPP-aranc., I hop©, of censuri n g th e ceuregement to the gallant tine service men themselves • views of the late Government, but solely with the °eject of for in many cases they to his ow n knowledge, accepted ' explaining to the committee what I conscientiously believ e their discharge upon one aide is he deck as continuous to be required by the service of the country. (Hear, hear.) service teen, but re-entered the vice on tha other at a, In the office which I have the honour t o h o ld l am ass i s t e d lower rate of remuneration tbutsewrithout the condition of by some of the ablest and roost distinguished officers, at d 10 years' compulsory service 1 which they were in the I may say for them, as well as for myself, that we have but first-earned cispacity boond 'an )y d with regard to the pay. one object in view, to secure economy, to avoid Unne cessary mug. Off the ships, there was a ; reduction at the end of the expenditur©, but, above all , to maintain the naval forc e o f war, under circums tances promising a lasting and pro- England at the poiut which is required for the honour, found peace, so far as it was ossible at that time to form m i t dignity, and safety of the country. (Hear, hear.) The a judgment, and so tuated P her Maesty's Government concluded by moving the first vote, that the could have had no r b pretext for keeping all those hon. baronet emote, le pretext naval force for the year InsB be 59,380 mon and boys. ships in commission. Tire hon. and gallant member urged Sir CHARLES NAPIER said, that of all the states that had they been kept in commission troops might, hi We meats he had heard flow First Lo r d s o f the Admiealty, he been sF•nt, with great expedition to Inlia: Into that ques. tion it was not his intention at present to enter, but the only mede by which ships could be made available for such unforeseen necessities would be the somewhat costly plan of keeping up in dine of peace a wer establishment. If such a policy was desired, or would be sanctioned by the House of Commons, he felt sure that there would have been no difficulty either on his own part or on that of the right hon. gentleman now at the head of the Admiralty, in keeping up an efficient fleet, and getting the requisite number of men for the service • but it would i nvo l ve vast and endless expense, such a s the house would hardly sanc tion. As far as the naval branch of the service was con cerned, the late Government had maintained a larger peace establishment than was ever b e f ore propose d . He had to thank the right hon. gentleman for the mention made by him of the encouraeement given by the late Government to the coast-guard service and the naval volunteers. It had always been a matter of great difficulty to maintain such a body of men in efficient order, as a reserve in times of emergency, and to this point he hal devoted a great deal of attention. Such a body of men now existed, and he could not butregard it as the greatest boon to the count, y. He did not wish to take the credit of it himself, for his predecessors were equally entitled to do so. It had been the subject of much care, and the result had realised all the expectations he had ever formed respecting it. (Hear, hear.) During the last year the coast-guard amounted to ~ 000 men, of whom 2,30.1 were civilians. These last had subsequently fallen to 1,600, or, in other words, there had been au addition of 60) seamen to that tsrauch of the service, and in the course of the last year be had inspected a large number of them, and he was bound to say that a finer or abler body of men he had never seen in his life. They had a reserve of 5,000 picked seamen, who served at least five years each, and they formed the best possible nucleus of a first class naval esta blishment. He was sorry to fin I that the right hon. gen tleman proposed a reduction of 10,0001. for the additional accommodation required far these men. It was indispen sable that the accommodation should be made complete, and that the men should be well treated, The naval coast volunteers formed the cheapest and most efficient branch of the service, and the results from their incorporation ex ceeded all expectation. He regretted to find that an alte ration of the votes 8 and 10 was propose I. (Hear, bear.) It was not necessary, in his opiniou, to reduce by :,0,0.01. the estimate for wages, and 59,0e0/. for 8t d 9.111. Ship build ing purposes. (Hear ) The increase in the number of hands WAS continue l down to March last, and the reductions wer • effected slowly. When the number was reduced to what it had been at the beginning of the war, be thought he had amply provided for the adequate performance of all the work, yet he was surprised to tied that from every yard there was a cry that the work was getting behind hand, and from no yard was that cry louder than it was from that of Portsmouth. Under these circumstances, the reduction now proposed took him by surprise., especially as it was well understood that if we are to keep our maritime supremacy, we must maintain our naval establishments in a thou: ugh state of efficiency. Sailing ships would now he no longer employed in warfare, and when he was at the Admiralty, he had been most desirous of gis in. b an impetus to that portion of th e d oc k yar d ri uties. It wa s for that rea son he proposed au increase of 100,0001. iu the last estimate, and a corresponding increase of 8,000 ruse. Ho was a firm believer in the alliance, but the effect of their ceasing to build would be felt five years hence, and who could say what would be the state of things five years hence? He was opposed, then, to the reduction of the votes for build ing ships, and the purchase of steam machinery. During the Russian war they built a largo number of ships iu private yards, which, for vessels ot inferior tonnage, could be lone more cheaply than in the dockyards. Indeed, the builders must have lost money by the transaction, for they did the work without regard to expense, under the pressor, of a great national emergency. Larger vessels could not be so advantageou'ly guilt in private yards, for it would not suit the purposes of many builders to keep large timber in stock, His objection extended, moreover, to the mode in which the reduction was to be made. Ia ordinary times the wages of dockyard labourers were kept a little below the wages given in private yards, but the men bad regular employment, and some other advantages, so that a constant supply of shipwrights was had. Iu private yards 12s. a oay was often given to shipwrights, and they could not hope to be able to compete with them. It was good policy, titer ore, to maintain, during peace as many men as would do the ordinary work at ordinary pay, and to employ their resources in increasing both the work and the pay in time of war. If the right hon. gentleman, then, expensed that power in time of peace, he might de pend upon it that, having made a reduction then, he would net be able to make the increase during war. He obj- &fel, likewise, to his reductions to the extent of 15,000/. for hemp and other stores. The right hon. gentle mail, he thought, was also unwise in delaying the pur sheets of land for dockyard purposes, for by so doing he would find that he was increasing the ultimate outlay. He hoped the riebt hon. gentleman would take into consi deration the points he had submitted to him, and the only object of which was to secure the maintenance of the navy in a state of efficiency. Mr. H. DRITMAIOND said that the right hon. gentle man had spoken of the folly of keeping up the expenses ot war in time of peace. As a general pr .position, there was no denying that ; but what was the meaning precisely of a war establishment and being in a -tate of peace, and keepiug up your relative position with other nations Y (Hear-, and laughter.) In all those questions it was not necessary that there should be a declaration of war. A gentleman in the country was more likely to quarrel with a neighbour than with some ono who lived in another country; and so, if we quarrelled at all, it would most probably be with a neighbour. Now, who was our nearest neighbour? Was he a t.ull, slow, heavy, matter-of-fact, red-tapist sort of gentleman like ourselves or the Germans? Trey need not fear a sudden attack from the Germans, but this was a lively gentleman. (Hear, and laughter.) They .oust judge of his probable future conduct by his east, and in times past be had acted by coups de main. Would he make a declaration of war, and then give them a month's notice to bring their coast-guards on board their ships? Never. He was much too wise a wan; he understood his business too well. Now, it ought to be observed that a maritime force was not an essential condition of any coun try but this, France was not a whit weaker for losing Tra falgar but if we lost the mastery of the sea, there was an end of us; or if our ships of war were prevented from coming from Plymouth to P. rtsmouth, or from Ports. month to the Them s, it would be all the s true. We must be ready for action at all times. Yet it was a pity they world not believe fair-spoken honest people. He believed the Emperor of the French was above b .are with us, and over sine he had come to the Throne he had acted toward us in the most straightforward marine'. He quite agreed with the right hon. gentleman the late Lord of the Admi ralty in many of the reasons be had shown against the re duction in the estimates, and concurred with him in the opinion that any cutting down of our naval defences under present circumstances was a most unwise economy. Mr. CORRY, in replying to the various otjections, regretted that these men had been discharged from the crevice. Objectiun had been taken to the reduction of 50,0001. iu the wages of the artificers, but he theught his right hole friend hail been misunderstood on this subject. There was no chance of the work falling short of its due amount in the dockyard, but if such contingency was likely to arise, the Government would ask for an additional vote. The plan of permitting men to work overtime was iutended to operate temporarily, not permanently. He wes much impressed with the Importance of increased activity in repairing and building ships of the line, more especially screw ships. Of late years there had been a diminution in the number of ships of the line ; but the cost of building these armed vessels was considerably greater than in for mer years. He fully agreed in the opinion that the w or k in the dockyards ought not to be relaxed. The reduction in the amount asked for hemp had been made in accord ance with the report of the Storekeeper-General. Sir G. PD.:IIE LL should leave the question of the e•- niality or informality of these revised votes to be settled between the present anal the late First Lord of the Athol. ralty. But he rejeice.i to fin lit announced from the Trea sury bench that many of those reforms for which he hail contended for so many years, were to be carried out. The pr,sant First Lord bat frankly declared that ho would listen to complaints, and he had no doubt that the case of the half-pay officers of Greenwich Hospital would receive eensideratitn. But he feared that the co .tinuous service men wer. likely still to labour under a disadvant a g e The s e rvices of those m . e „ , ra i se d i n t o i m p or t ance b y hi s friend Sir G. Berkeley, had been much misunderstood. These men, on the cessation of the Crimean war, had e n t ere d th e merchant service with the consent of the Admiralty, but when they again tried to enter the royal navy they wets, met with all kinds of difficnlties. Th e Fi rs t L or d h a d 8' e ken of the difficul t y of raising men in Portsmouth. (i.No, no, " from Sir J. Paitington.) The real difficulty 3y in the standard of height set up. All our s a il ors did not like to servo for five cr ten years, and this op erate d prejudicially to the raising of men. On the subject of the vote for our cruisers on the coasts of Cube and Africa lie a hope that as increased sums on this account were asked, an assurance would be given that what was done was done with a view to the extinction of the abo minable trade in slaves. He had long urged that gur boats should supersede the ships of large draught, whir could not navigate some of these waters. The honourab. and gallant admiral also contended for the necessity , limiting the Board of Admiralty to naval men. Mr. BENTINCK Lad listened to the speech of the Firs Lord with considerable pleasure, believing it to be the file indication that improvement was to take place in the ac ministration of the navy. He regretted that reduction likely to affect our naval efficiency were in coots 1 . 1 flatiOr ' although the Government had frankly stated that thee. reductions would not be persisted in if they were fount prejudicial. He rejoiced to hear that for the future w, ought to have an efficient squadron. (Haar, hear.) Be this country, if it deserved its reputation, ought fo ba prepared for emergencies. As a matter of counnet cis prudence he aske.t whether it would not be wise to pro vide against even the c. mtingency of the lauding of foreigt troops on our shores. (Hear.) The-late First Lord noe spoke of the necessity of our keeping up our naval de fences, but he did not think that the right hon. gentlernao's Administration had acted up to tbia newly-born zeal. With regard to the means of raising men, he feared they would fail if the continuous service system were aban doned. He rejoiced that the present deiraa, had not been defaced by any OD oof those absurd cries for economy which were rife sown years ago. He had no hesitation in saying that owing to the previous parsimony, 30,( 00,000/. or 40,100,0)01. had been wasted in the course of the Russian war. But h shoul I despair of an efficient administration of naval affairs so long as the Board of Admiralty was the focus of political patronage, and civilians ruled its destinies. Admiral WALCOTT sincerely hoped that the reductions propos d might not impair tbo service, and relied on the promise of tide First Lord, that he would p rocee d w ith caution; but h e coul.l not but think that retrenchment at this moment was unwise. It would be well for the future to adapt our naval strength to that which might be opposed to us, but this could not be done by Luilding only one class of ships. He had no ft ar of invasion. (Hear, hear.) The Thames alone would supply us with men to line our southern coast to meet the invader if he came. (Hear, hear.) Still a state of preparation was the best safeguard against war. (Hear, hear.) He implored the house to maintain an efficient navy, at order to avoid any possible disaster. Lord CLARENCE PAGET thought it would be wise for the Government to pause in the construction of enormous battle ships. He did not believe the French were acting in the constructim of ships. ['hey were waiting to see what we should do. He did rat believe that in any future wars lino-of-battle ships would take any prominent part. He be lieved that in ten years there would be no three-deckers, and t •erefore he thought a wasteful expenditure to go on build ing such , hips, lie recomtneuded the ristit hon. gentleman to call the naval officers together, and consult them as to the best means of constructing ships, and what ships shout f be sOstituted for line-of-battle ships. There was a fallacy at the Admiralty, that the navy did not desire to carry troops. Why that was a libel on the navy. They considered it a great honour to carry troops. What was required Was an improved construction of ships. The ,hi. s ought to be con strutted to carry sixteen (la's's' coals and six months' pro visions for 500 men, and such ships could be constructed. WW I regard to manning the navy, ho thought that when men were sent home to their friends after the return of a ship to port they should be taken back to that ship after the expira tion of their leave of absence, and not sent to str oige ships, whore they becam e w h a t the tailors called s,tupidiNale ries." The men ought to feel that their ship was their home. The men and officer in the navy should he like the men and officers in a regiment. He was of opinion that it would be wi e to introduce the competitive system into the navy with rega d to cadets. Lord PALMERSTON said he entirely agreed in the great importance of having an efficient naval service. It was ab solutely necessary for our security that our navy should be in an efficient condition. There were three great naval powers —France, Russia, and the United States—all of them almost without colonial establishments—all of them so far indepen dent of naval war, that eeen naval roversesdid not materially affect them ; while on the other hand, our insular position made naval protection essential for our security, and we had vast colonial possessions scattered over the face of the globe, all which required naval protection for their defence. In coosiderine, however, what should be the application of the funds which parliament might place at the disposal of the government for naval purposes, it seemed to him that, be tween the provi ing of a large number of men, and the providing of what might, be called the materials of , efenec, preference should be given in ordinary tines, to the latter over the former of those demands. In periods when there was no immediate danger, if the amount of our shipping and the state of our dockyards and stores was not such as it ought to be, it was a more wise and prudent application of the funds at the d sposal of government to apply them in building ships, in organising dockyards, and in filling them with stores, rather than in h av i ng a greater number of men actually employed. And the reason was obvious. We were not ,t all the more secure next year in consequence of havieg had a greater number of sailors employed this year ; but we were moi e secure next year if in the present year we increased the number of our ships, and placed onr dockyards and stores in a better and more efficient condition. That was the pried. le on ehich the late Govern ment ha i acted. Last year, when the war with Russia was over, there was a great dem ind, not only iu that house, but throughout the country, for the cessatio i of the war income tax. That rendered it necessary for the Government to re duce the aeiount applicable to the war services ; and Sir Charles Wood had properly judged that it was better to re duce the number of mea actually employed, and to go on with those other applications of public money to which he had alluded. Therefore, when they were told that it was an unwise and imps udent act to reduce the number of men last year, he said that it was the inevitable result of Government acting in deference to the opinion of Parliament and of the country. It had been said that a prime minister ought to come down to that house and say that he required a certain amount of money to be given for naval purposes. It was all very well for a minister to hold hat lan uage ; but when it was the opinion of Parliament and the country that certain taxes ehould cease, it was vain for Government to urge their continuance, for no satisfactory resalt would be attained. On the contrary, it was the duty of a Government to submit to the opinion of Parliament and the country, and make the most prudent application of the monies placed at their dis posal. Applying that principle to the clam the present Go vernment was about to adopt, he confessed he thou ;lit that that course was not the wisest and most prudent for the iete rests of the country, They were right in saying that there ought to be a Channel fleet, and that there ought to be the number of men which they proposed. But the proposed reductions iu the amount of ship building, of stores to be provided, and of improvements and t nlargemeuts in the dockyards, were imprudent reductions. He could not conceive that there could be any financial necessity for those reductions ; because it was impossible to imagine, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer produced his budget, that that difference in the xpenditure could make any material difference in the means by which he might provide for' the supplies of the year. The last speaker had said that the building of line-of battle ships was an antiquated prejudice. But until other nations had abandoned that prejudice, it could not be called antiquated ; and it would be very imprudent in this country to act on another principle, and not provide an adequate sup ply of liue-of-battle ships when France and Russia were strengthening their fleet with ships of that descriptioa. rho noble lord s id ho was informed by naval officers in France that they considered line-of -battle shies useless, and that it was much better to have smaller vessels. He was not sure that opinions cowing from the naval service of other coun tries were exactly the opinions by which the government of the country ought to be guided. (Hear, and laughter.) Per haps, if the noble lord had had to advise the French Admi ralty, he might have said,—`• Your government ought not to increase your line-of-battle ships; gunboats are tle- things you want. Our government may pursue a different course, but it is better for you to have few line-of-battle ships, or none at all." (Laughter.) As long as other naval powers employed an increasing ; umber of line-of-battle ships, it was essential that we should provide ourselves with ships of that description. It might be quite true, as ho stated, that though great improvements had been made of late years in the construction of ships, greater still remained to be made, mere especially in the points to which he ad verted, the construction of the pro ws of ships and those lines which would best cut the eat r. (Hear, hear.) No doubt those improvements might be made ; but he hoped the Go vernment would not be led away, even by the opinion of the noble lord, to discontinue the provision of line-of-battle ships adequate to cope with those provided by other nations. They knew that the French Government were taking measures which in a few years would give them a fleet of screw line-of. battle ships very little in erior to those we should have at the same time -(hear, hear)—also that the Russian Government were constructing as fast as they could a formidable number of line-of-battle ships. It would be extremely imprudent in this c suntry to lay aside the idea of augmenting the very in adequate number of line-of-battle ships which we now had. The application of the pr , polling screw as the moving power had rendered it necessary to rebuild in a manner the whole fleet of this con try ; and the expense of rebuilding a screw ship of war, as well as of working it, was much more than that which attached to sailing vessels. He therefor., hoped that the Government would reconsider the course which they .tended to pursue. The First Lord had stated that if it were found in the course of the session that suer • money was required for these purposes, ho would come down to Par liament with a supplementary estimate. But when the Chancellor of the Exchequer had submitted his budget, and made his financial arrangements, it would be exceedingly in convenient if, at a later period of the session, any department should e4,,,,e clown to Parliament with an estimate for services which had not been provided for by the Chancellor of the Re. chequer. It ev..s well known to those who had attended to the matter, that our dockyards were inconveniently small. Cherbourg alone was as large as many of our dockyar Is taken together. (Bear. The increased length of ships consequent upon the application of the •c. ew, had been such that very few of our dockyards would hold the large line- tliattle ships that were built. It was, therefore, very nece sary to increase their size. We required factories for steam machinery, be cause the machinery by which the screw was driven wee liable to perpetual accidents, and unless we had the means of re pairing losses, and supplying new ships with steam machinery, it was in vain to build the ships. Tho right hon. gentleman had stated that ships were of no use without men. That was perfectly true ; but men were of no use without ships —(hear) —although risen could be procured in a much shorter time than that in which it was possible to build ships. The most pressing and urgent application of funds to the naval Service must be in providing those things which, when once provide I, remait ed, rather than in employing men, who after the year was over did not add to our strength unless the same number were again voted. There was a power to take land by jurf assessment for the purposes of military defences, but there was no such power for land taken for dockyards ; and if they gale up the purchases that had been made, at a future time they might n t be able to have them at all, or only at a very enhanced price. He therefore considered that the Government had taken au injudicious course in the reductions they had made on these estimates; they would bett• r consult the inte rests of the country by proposing them iu their original form. Sir JAMES. ELPHINSTONE thought the principle of steam propulsion of ships of war at present in its infancy. He had observed that up to a certain point of speed they could supply the propulsion at a comp ratively small cost ; but to gain a single knot of increased speed would necessi tate an increase of double the expenditure. This was a sub ject, therefore, that required close inquiry. He considered the gunboats were a complete failure, as they would neither sail nor steam. They ought to have been mort trboats. If they had been properly constructed they migh. have been new employed on the coast of Africa. Sir J. PAKINGTON bad only a few words to say in reply. It was with sincere pleasure he had listened to the observa tions of the noble lord the m tuber for Sandwich, and being aware of the high standing of the noble lord in his profession, he would give th • utmost weight to all his suggestions. The noble lord'complaieed that the Diadem c ,uld only carry four days' coal. He beloved she could carry six eays' coal, but ho must remind the noble . lord it .+as not desirable that,these yes els should proceed at full power The screw was intended to be only auxiliary except on pressing emergencies. Then the noble lord said they ought not to go on building line-of battle ships He could not agree with him in the , opini•.,n. As long as line-of-battle ships of great s eam power were built by other n .tions, i would not b e w i se i n E ng l an d t o aban don them altogether. (Hear, hear.) The wisest coarse was to build as many as were suffieieet for their own protection, but not to enter into a race of competition with other countries. That would be most unwise. Let us take care of ourselves, and if we set the example of reduction, ho believed that m.: other nations would follow in th e same course. He had not ch ' intended to advert to the question of the comparative forces tie in England and France, and should have been sorry to ay of one word that would give rise to the idea that the Geyer,- meet entertained the slightest feeling of alarm. They felt - s t th tat this moment, as at ether moments, England ought to li t be prepared, and ought to be adequately protected ; but then d. nothing could be more erroneous than to inspire a feeling of DR general alarm. Therefore, he honfessed he had not deemed it desirable to enter into the comparison w ich the right se hon. baronet opposite had done. As he had chosen to do so, however, he (Sir J. Pakington) was bound to say that the , e t hon. gentleman's statement was not perfectly correct. i t The right hon. gentleman had st-te , that wo possessed but , e two line-of -battle ships more than the French, and this was i e strictly true if we took the ships that were ae ually- built, y.. ,and altogether excluded what were called the block-s' ips. n But although he quite agreed that those block.3hips ought to '• be superseded as soon as possible by better ones, and that they were not ships which he could wish to send out to • compete with the navy of other countries, still we could not altogether exclude them from our calculations. Out of these nine block ships, four or five were cert iuly in very good condition. They did good service during the Russian wir in the' Baltic. They were two-deck ships, of 60 guns each, and he thought that in a calculation of this . kind it would be decidedly wrong to exclude them ; but they would be excluded altogether if it were asserted that we had only two line-of-battle ships more than the French. Now, if we did that which we were fully entitled to do—namely, in clude the ships building as well as the ships afloat, still ex cluding tho block-ships, the difference between Fraece and England was much more in our favour than the right hon. gentleman had stated. But the right hon. gentleman had fallen into another error. He had also stated that the French ships were more powerful than ours. It was true that the aggregate horse-power of the French steamboats was greater than our own • but there was another mode of comparison which was perhaps more conclusive that that. It was to done, compareit wouldthe a be found ram n t s of that thet the owo numberfleets g an a d a this h w e ere be lieved also the weight of the guns, but undoubtedly the num- m ber of the guns in the English fleet was very much greater than that in the French fleet, and far beyond the relative ra portion iu the number of ships. The same held good in re spect of the frigates. Our superiority over the French navy in frigates was still more decided than in line-of-battle ships (Hear.) He must now be allowed to say a few words with re gard to the statement which bad fallen from the r i g ht h on. gentleman (Sir C. Wood), and the noble lord the member for Tiverton, as to the reduction proposed to be made in vote 8. The noble lord had made use of the expression that the Government were about to suspend—to put an end to— the building of ships ; and the right lion. gentleman had held very much the same langu a ge.' Now, that was a perfectly er, °aeons view of the propus ils made by her Majesty's Go vernmeut. They had no such intention. On the contrary, their proposals would, for the next six months, carry on the dockyard establishments upon precisely the ame footing that they had been 'placed by the late government. The only difference w s, that the present government proposed to effect chat object by continuing theiameperwa ent establishments and taking 50.000/. fen expend ture in hired labour, not in task and job work. The right hon. gentleman seemed to think that it was intend d to spend the money in task and job-work. Not - at all. It was pr. posed to spend it iu hired la,our. Why, what w.ts the courso which the righ. hon. gen tleman himself hail aci4tecif When wo were in the height e 0 f the Russian war in 1855, 1856, 1857, the late government did not come down with a proposal of 12.000 men for the dock yards ; on the contrary, they contented themselves with the very same establish ant wnieh t ey now proposed. How did they make up the difference By hired lab ur. That was the resource to which the right hon. gentleman himse:f had turned ; and it was the res uree to which the present govern ment proposed to turn, in order to meet an accidental pres sure. If itproved to be an accidental pressure, they would be justified in the course they had adopted ; if it did not then the won .d be free to take the course which he had indicated of coming down t, Parliament later in the session, and asking for an increase of the vote. He hoped and believed there would be no such necessity ; but if the necessity did arise, he did not think it would be for the noble lord to object to it, considering that it was the c ur e which his own go vernment had taken last year, when they were obliged to come down at the end of the session and apply to Parliament for an additional grant of 310 men. (Hear, hear.) With re gard to the question of steam machinery, he utterly denied that the Government were open to the slightest charge of neglecting our national def noes He had not propostd any reductions without first making the most careful inquiries, and really ascertaining that he 50,000/. was not required for the efficiency of the service ; that the grant he proposed to take would be enough to cover all necessary expenditure, pro. vide all the engines for the ships about to be launched, and still leave a margin—(hear' hear) —and h e th oug ht h o s h ould no be justified in asking Parliament for more money than the necessity required. (Hear, hear.) The only point that remained to be noticed was the extension of the dockyards. The item of 15,00;)l. for the purchase of land for naval bar racks at Gosport, ha thought, might be postponed, seeing that the Government had already a qu ntity of land there whic had not yet be n made any Lee of. The noble lord was well aware that the state of the Rutile finances was net such as to justify him in asking other than necessary votes. These votes he did not consider to be necessary at present, and therefore he had only done his duty in pos poning them. (Hear, hear.) Sir CHARLES Vf , )OD, in explanation, said that the state. ment which he ha.l made in reference to the " block " ships ia the service was, that although not as efficient ys the line of battle shies, they were still per f ect l y good and serviceable ships. Ho held in his hand a statement prepared for him, showing that the number of ships afloat of screw line of battle ships were 25 for England, and 23 for France ; and that the number of ships of the line afloat were for England 42 and for France 10. Mr. HORSHAM said the right hon. baronet the First ford of t •e Admiralty began his statement that evening by saying that he adopted the statements of the late Government ; and he (Mr. Horsman) confessed he was glad the house had, in some respects, heard so encouraging a statement from the right hon. baronet. It was, however, a serious reflection, when they were told that, nAwithstanding their boasted pride of having the largest navy in the world, they yet had not the command of the sea.—(Hear, hear.) Allusion had been made to France, and he hoped that the existing Go vernment of that country would long continue ; but whether it continue or not, it was necessary that the, naval power of this coenti7 should be in a condition, as the right hon. baronet had said, to be prepared for any emergency —(Hear, hear ) They knew that in the days of the French Republic, a , French admiral had asked for a fleet that he might invade England. They were now in France making the; greatest naval progress and preparations; and they could not forget in this country that Napoleon the First had said he would not ask more than forty-eight hours command of the fleet in the Channel, He .(Mr. Horsman) did not say that that was cause for alarm, but he must say that it ought to operate as a suggestion for precautions on the part of her Majesty's Go vernment, and he begged to add that there w , s much in the statement of the right hon. baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty that night, of which he entirely approved. Mr. KINNAIRD agreed in the necessity of being prep , red but there was one item in the v tee to which he thought the attention of the Committee ought to be directed, and that was the halt-pay list. That list hung as a dead weight upon the resources of the nation, and some means ought, in his opinion, to be devised to place it on a more satisfactory footing in rel tion to the resources and interests of the country. Mr. WILLIAMS said the right hon. baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty had thrown r dicule upon the statements made by him that evening ; but he was prepared to substan. tiate all that he had expressed on the subject. The question was then put, and the vote for 59,380 men was agreed to. A sum of 1,401,599/ towards completing the charges necessary for defraying the wages to seamen was next agreed to 577,3671. for completing the charges necessary for the seamen and marines, was, after a few words from Mr. WIL. LIAMS, also agreed to; as was also a sum of 70,4391. for completing the sum necess try for the payment of officers, The CHAIRMAN, on the suggestion of Mr. WYKEEEAM MARTIN, outained leave to report progress, and to sit again. The House resumed THE BUDGET. In reply to Lord PALMERSTON, Mr DISRAELI said it was the intention of the Government to proceed with the navy esti Gates on niday, and, if possible they would also proceed with the army estimates the same evening ; but at all events the budget would be brought on OIL Monday. THE CUSTOM'S DUTIES BILL. This bill passed through committee. OATHS BILL. On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL this bill waft re td a third time. CASHEL ELECTION. Cn the motion o f M r. BAGWELL, the adjourned debate on this subject was or d ered to be discharged. THE LOAN SOCIETIES BILL. This bill was read a second time. Mr. HENLEY obtained leave to bring in a Bill to effect an exchinge between the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital and the Governor and Company of Chelsea Waterworks, of lands in the parishes of St. George's, Hanover-square, and St. Margaret's, Westminster. The bill was read a first time. The House then adjourned at a quarter to one o'clock. PABLIAMENTAAY DIVISION. OUSE OF CO VI MONS—Aram 12. SPPLY. Order for Committee re ad ; motion made, and question proposed, " Th a t th e S peaker do now leave the chair :" Amendment proposed, to leave oat the word " That".to the end of the question, in order to and the words “the army and navy estimates be referred to a select commit. tee," instead thereof : Question put, " That the 'words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." The house divided—Ayes, 161; Noes, 24. 1 Adderley, C. B. AYES-161. , ' Forester, Col. Moffat, G. I Bantle, H. Frazer, Sir W. Mowbray, J. R. 1 BAIL E Gard. It. Naas, Loru ' Baring, A. Gaskell, J. .Napier, Sir rt. Baring, T. Gavin, Major Newport, Viscount haring, T. G. Ginrd, Earl of Nisbet, R. P. Bernard, T. Gilpin, Col. 11. Packe, C. Beaumont, W. Gladstone, W. Paget, Lord C. Beecrott, G. Gl yn, G. Pakington, Sir Bennet, Capt. P. Glyn, G. Palmer, It. J. Bentinck, U. Black, Adam Gregory, W. Pahnerston, Viscount Bonham-Carter Grenfell, C. P. Patten, Col. Bovill ,J. Grey, R. Pechell, Sir G. . , W. Griffith, C. P eel, Gen. Brand, H. B. r e, BramleNfoor J. Hall, Sir Benjamin Peyensey, Viscount Bridges, Hamilton, Lord Claud P ro b y, G. Brown,Sir B. Hamilton, G. A. Puller, Christopher Bruc W. major Hamilton, Capt. Ridl ey, George Buck e, . Hankey, T. Robertson, P. BYng ley, Gen.. U. C . Harcourt, G. G. Russell, Lwd J. ' G Hardcast.e, Joseph Rust, James Caird, J. Hardy, G. Scholetleld, W. Campbell, R. Hay, Lord John Sclater, George Carden, Sir It. W. Hay ter, W Scott, Major Cartwright, H. Headlam, T. Shelley-, Sir J. Zia vendish, W. Claik J. Henley, J. Smith, J. A. Close, , AL HoAgsoo K. Smith, Sir F. Co Holford, ' R. Spooner, R. Codrin bbold ton, J. C Dope, xi l exander Stanhope, J. , Gen. Horsrnan, E. Stanley, Colin, T . Hotham, Lord Stuart, Coionel Lord Con ngham, Lord F. Inglis, ' John sturt, U. Corry, H. V. L. Jervoise, Sir J. Thompson, it ()ramrod,mpson, E. ii. J. Johnston H. B. Trelawny, sir J. Dalglish, R. Kinglake, A. Vane, Lord H. Davie, Sir H. R. F. Ktnnaird, A. Vanslt tart, W. Diliwyn, L. L. Knatchbull, W. Verner, Sir W. Disraeli, B. Knatchhull-Haguessen Verney, Sir H. Dod, J. Knox, Col. B. W. Waddington, H. - Dodson, J. Lennox, Lord H. G. Walcott, Admiral Drummond, H. Leslie, C. f. Walpole. S. Buncombe, A. Liddell, H. G. W ickham, John Egerton, Vi, Lindsay, W. Wickham, 11. Eicho, Lord Lovaine, Lord Williams, S.r W. Ellice, E. Lowe, it. Willoughby, Sir IL Elphinstone, Sir J. Lygon, Hon. F. Wise, J. Enalyn, Viscount Macarthy, Alex. Wood, Sir C. Estcourt, T. Macaulay, Kenneth Woods, Henry F." 1 14, Crum M'Clintock, John Wynne, J. A. Farqu.har, Sir M. Fellowes, E Matins, Richard Y or k e, E. B. Mangles, R. D. Fitzgerald, W. R. S. Mangles. C num. Fitzgerald, J. Manners, Lord .1. Fitzroy, rienry Melgu Forde, Colo ne l nd, Lord J olliffe, Sir W. MiLer, Taverner Whitmore. li. NOES-2i. • Boweßyr. G. Harris, J. D. Sheridan, H. B. , J. 33 Ingram, H. Smith, J. B. Cox, W. Langton, H. G. Smith A. Cn , tslley. F. i ocke, Julio Syk banns. M. M orr i s, D. Tit es, Colonel e, W. Ewart, J. .blicoll, D. White, James i'ox W. I. O'D onog h oe, The Gilpin, C. P ease, Henry Williams. W. TELLS'S Gregson, Samuel Roebuck, J. Kershaw, J. [ADVERTISEMENT.]—HoIIoway's. Pillo an admirable Remedy for ludigestion, Flatulency, and Bilious Com plaints.—The well-known properties of these eicellent pills are too highly apprec ated in the present dai to r“plire any commendation ; the test of years has proved their efficacy in curiug bile, indigestion, flatulency, sick headache, nervousness, and debilitated constitutione. They invigorate the body, strengthen the faculties of the mind, and increase the appetite. Old and young, rich and poor, resi•rt to them when afflicted with any ail mdnt, and none are disappointed in their effect upon the systiln. They may also be taken with perfect safety by persons of all ages, in every climate, and at aoy season. —Sold by all druggists, and at Professor Holloway's Establishment 244, Strand, London. • BIRTHS. Cecm—On the 11th inst., at 9, Park-cresceut, Lady Rob er t Cecil, of a daughter. DELAmenr—On the 6th inst., at St. Truchand, Brittany, the wife of Colonel C. H. De'amain, C. 8., of a son. Nlco On the 10th inst., at 5,. Hyde -park-terrace, Mrs. Dyce Nicol, of a son. SHAhaSrRP—On the 11th inst., at Ri c h mond, the wife of John Cles Sharpe, Esq., of Pleet-street, London, banker, of a SOU. MARRIAGES. HARRIS—SUTHERLAND —On the 10th inst., at St. Paurs,Torkft place, Edinburgh, Joseph Harris, Esq., of Bishoprgats Churchyard, LoLdon soliclor, to Alexandrina, only stir viving child of th e l ate Alexander Sutherland, Esq., of Edinburgh. YuLa-13ssr —At St. Martin's-in the.F (Ada, Major-Genera/ Yule, Royal Engineer., to the Hon. Ann Louisa Best, only daughter of Lord Wynford. DEATH S. Mimi:m-0n the 10th inst., Joseph Addison, Esq., of Dean's Yard, Westminster, barrister-at-lavr, and Bencher of the Inner Temple. BEALE—In July last, at Lucknow, from a wound received on the 11th, Mr. Benson Wood Beale, the eldest sou of Mrs. th Beal samee, 1, IL:ch ti Woo mich-common. Nearly a t children. e , died Mr. B. W. Beale's wif e an d hi s two . DUNNING—On t e 10th inst., Joseph Dunning, Esq., Elm wood Lodge, Leeds, aged 66. JONES -On the 10th inst., at 7, Connaught-square, Hy le. park, Wiliam, Jones, Esq. MumaN—On the 11th inst., at. Pinner-grove, Arthur Henry, youngest son of Sir W. Milman, Bart., aged 3. _ _ _ 0/4DoN Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, of No. 112, Strand. Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of-the Savoy, in the eoUcty of Afidd!eser, Tuesday, April 13, 1858. THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 13, 1858. M leventi IA issioi the Ro. Beale, C I 1IEN! 'Arnim Introdi mariner mum, lack. tOTro Event 110U1 "The gninei Geller A Act of ductee MOTT] Ur. ( The a' ♦ate I Room, G—oat. 'fund; ALIJA 'VICES Eitht Al Place. loan s , v.n Assure et grac I N 4 :Ished 1 has ties Police eiirrini Mutual the de el gnu P lieu The Ifey. ".....--. PO ic take 'tit I 1831 441 184! 1141 !VC The nati o , Tho Te r Av e y Ito 1 , ItB to 0 no Th, Ab, Sin Of thr Fo x itan, trf — ect gue r , b on* to n , ta tpa • l loste fall., ° re it ° IN ezu, litte 4 its n erfo ti ; . a ~ o a