The Sun. — London, England, 1858-07-28 00:00:00

evidence was taken, and one witness, Mr. Denison, the chairman of the Great Northern Railway, recom mended that the jurisdiction should be taken away from the house altogether. It frequently happened that members of the committee, from ignorance of the man• ner of conducting investigations in courts of justice, pursued lines of examination wholly irrelevant, and they allowed counsel to play all sorts of tricks with them. Occasionally a member of the committee struck up a mare's nest, and detained a witness a day and a half, although the expenses to the parties amounted to 2001. or 3001. a year. Permanent chairmen would have to sit 50 days in the session, four times a day, and he • thought it was only just that they should receive com pensation for their labours. Mr. D. GRIFFITHS complained that in these com mittees counsel received enormous and unreasonable fees, and rushed about from one committee to another. He trusted that that system would receive a check, espe cially as the counsel practising before Parliamentary committees were not required to be so astute, or their legal talents so perfect, as those who practised in courts of justice. Sir D. NORREYS thought that gentlemen degraded themselves by the centralisation of business in that house. He believed that much of that business might be transacted in their various counties, at a very much smaller expense than was incurred in bringing it to London. Col. WILSON PATTEN hoped the day would never come when members of that house would be paid for their parliamentary services. The CHANCELLOR of the EXO HEQUER promised that the attention of the Government should be called to the report of the committee appointed for the revision of tine standing orders. Colonel PATTEN moved, that this house will not in sist on its privileges with regard to any clauses in pri vate bills sent down from the House of Lords which re fer to tolls and charges for services performed, and are not in the nature of a tax. The motion was agreed to. _ GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL. On the order for the consideration of the Lords Amend ments on this bill, Colonel SYKES moved as an amendment that they be considered this day three months. The East India Company had gainel an empire which Alexander the Great or Augustus Casar might have envied, and he thought, therefore, it might have been re spected by the Government instead of seekingits extinction. He had been for a long time con nected with the company, and he could say that there had always been a desire to prevent war, annexation, and extensions, and that what had been done had been forged upon them by the home Go vernment, and they had been obliged to confirm the acts of the home Government against their better convic tions. With those exceptions, there bad not been a failure in its administrative power. Millions of men and abundance of stores had been conveyed to India, and he held that there had not been a single_ failure, and, so far as he was aware, not a complaint. The directors, he maintained, had been actuated by the best intentions to ensure to the people of India their rights, privileges, and justice. (Rear, hear.) It could not be contended that the Company was responsible for the Indian mutiny, which arose from the fact that a certain number of gallant men preferred death to dishonour, and would not do that which was opposed to their reli gious convictions. That spirit rapidly ran through the army of Bengal, and speedily made it a mass of mutiny. The bill crushed a court which enabled the people to come before the public with their complaints, and which put an end to party strife in that house on Indian affairs—strife which he contended bad been a disgrace to the British character. What was the present state of India! Everything must succumb to our arms there, but it was like putting a man's finger upon a globule of quicksilver. He thought he had got it under his power, but only let him look around, and he would see 20 globules starting on every side. That was the exact state of India at present in reference to our military ope rations there. He believed that the present state of this question was the result of a mistake. Some mendacious papers had stated that there was a determination on the part of the public that the authority of 'the company should be transferred to the Crown. Many members of that house believed those statements, and hence the large division which took place on the question. He might remind the house that there were at that moment 481 petitions before the house in reference to India. Of these 126 were for the removal of the system of caste, 89 were against idolatry, and 145 were for the extension of Christianity. So that there were 360 petitions closely touching the feelings of the people. (Hear, hear.) He believed that in this movement the natives of India would come to the conclusion that the Government was not caring for them, and that the only object they bad in view was to secure the patronage which would fail into their hands as a result of this transfer of power. That would necessarily tend to increase the distrust of the English Government which so extensively prevailed in India. The result of all this was that there was in India at the present time a more dangerous enemy then the mutineers in India, and that was a want of confi dence on the part of the people. He would say, let ttes missionaries in India parsue their arduous and, he had no doubt, beneficial labours.. They were doing good, for they were unsuspected, not being connected , with the Government. There were 460 of them, of all denomi nations, labouring in various parts of the country, to which they had free access, but if they once had the official prestige of Government they would be the worst enemies India ever had. He would say, in conclusion, that the Government should endeavour to respect the prejudices of the people of India, as far as they were reasonable and just, and that they should mark the transfer of power to the Crown by a discriminating am nesty. Unless these things were done, there wool l he no peace in India, and no safety for our dominions. (Hear, hear.) Mr. MANGLES defended the civil service of the East India Company, which he considered had been treated with undue disrespect in that house. He had been connected with it for many years, and he could bear testimony to the fact that it had always been guided with a view to the benefit of India. (Hear.) He complained that in a previous debate Mr, Bright had asserted that the company had laboured from a chronic defi ciency, a statement which he most positively denied. The same hon. gentleman had also asserted that the land revenue was a most oppressive system of taxation, but the facts he believed would prove most undeniably that it was a most moderate system of taxation, and that it was cheerfully borne. The assessments had been continually reduced in a manner which was satisfactory to the people, and without any positive loss of revenue. The hon. gentleman repeated the conviction he has fre quently expressed on former occasions, that, with few and unimportant exceptions, the late outbreak was a military rebellion, and he held, as a general rule, that the remark was perfectly true—" Where no Sepoys, no insurrection." Reverting to the civil service, be denied that the men who composed it were overpaid. It was not to be expected that men would go to India for the same salaries they would accept amongst their friends at home. If they offered the men connected with the civil service in India half the salaries they now had for work in India, that civil service would be very soon denuded of its best men. (Hear.) He made an earnest appeal to the noble lord at the head of the India de partment that, in apportioning the rewards for recent services in India, military success should not be the Bole claim, and that those men should not be forgotten who had saved us from military successes by preserving the peace of their respective districts. (Hear, hear.) Amongst these he might mention such men as Edwards, Chamberlain, and Cotton. He hoped that government would abstain from interference with the religion of the people of India, and that in this respect the government would hold the scales equally between all. The Hindoos, so far from having a dread, had a great respect for the missionaries, so long as they knew that they were acting an independent part, and were unconnected with the Government. (Hear, hear.) He did not believe that the noble lord the member for Tiverton regretted that he had ever meddled with the East India Com pany, and that if the past could be forgotten, there were very few members in that house who would care to revive what had been done in reference to the new government of India. An eminent writer bad remarked, that to form a new government for India was as difficult a task as to build a tree, and he believed those who bad meddled with Indian matters of late had found this tree-building a very difficult operation. (Hear.) Mr. WARREN thought that in the bill a mighty stride nad been made on a momentous branch of legis lation, and that the highest credit was due to Lord John Russell for making the whole house a party to legisla tion in ilia - respect by proceeding by resolutien, thus clearing the way from all party considerations, and from all appearance of faction. (Hear, hear.) He was of opi nion that they might now look for a rapid extension of Christianity in India, but that civilisation, he considered, should be based on Christian principle, and that all undue concessions should be withdrawn. Mr. V. SMITH expressed a hope that the house would go into the consideration of the Lords' amend ments without going into the general question. He would not, th ere fore, put the questions ha had proposed to the nobl e l ord (the President of the Board of Con trol), as the noble lord had stated that he (M:r. Smith) should 'have an opportnnity of making a statement on the subject on Friday next. The ques tions were as follows : Whether the 17,000 men sent to India since Jenuaey last included any troops re quested to be added to the establishment in India by the directors of the East India Company? Whether he will state the terms and objects of the commission into the reorganisation o f t h e Indian a to 2 inquire What A is the amount borrowed un d er the Indian L o an of this session, and wheth er th e amount A ct of allowe d w to be borrowed under the act will co ver the expen ses of the current year, or if bills are now upon India in the usual method ; and, whether any in stractione have been sent, or will be sent, to proclaim ber Majesty's name and authority in India, and to an nounce the intentions of the government 53 to non interference with the religion of the natives ? The right hon. gentleman stated briefly the reasons which had in duced Lord Palmerston's administration to interfere with the question of Indian governmen t . Lord J. RUSSELL, adverting to a remark of Mr. Mangles, that he did not expect much longer to be a member, of the house, in anticipation of hie election as a memb er of the new Indian Council, expressed his regret that the members of that body were prohibited from Bitting in the House or Commons. General THOMPSON looked upon legislation at present for India as a csonming madness. It was like the commander of a vessel changing his to eer dad in a gale of wind. He had no hesitation in saying that if a Mahommedan should come to that table to be sworn be would introduce him, for he believed there was very little difference between the religions of Mahommedans land Christians. Col. SYKES withdrew his amendment, and the house proceeded to a consideration of the Lords' amendments. . Upon the addition made by the Lords to clause 27, " That no such order shall be sent without having been previously oemmunicated to the Vice-President and one other member from time to time to be selected by the Secretary of State, Lord J. RUSSELL said the amendment in his opinion did not provide that security which was intended by the Lords, and he therefore proposed that the following words be substituted, " That no such order shall be sent without having been previously communicated to a committee consisting of the Vice-President and four other members to be selected from time to time by the Secretary of State, and the opinion of the committee in respect to such order shall have been given in writing." Lord STANLEY said it was no easy task to defend the amendment made by the Lords, but the same objec tion the noble lord took to the amendment applied with equal force to his proposition. (Hear, hear.) Sir J. GRAHAM was opposed to the Lords' Amend ment. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said if the noble lord would withdraw his amendment he would not support that made by the Lords. (Hear, hear.) He thought the words as they originally stood in the bill far preferable to either amendment. Mr. MANGLES approved of the amendment made by the Peers. Sir J. COLEBROOKE thought no security would be given by compelling the Minister to communicate his despatches to members of a council appointed by himself. Mr. BOWYER thought the amendment of the noble lord the member for London was a great improvement of the Lords' Amendment, although he was of opinion that the number of the committee as suggested by him was rather too numerous—three members of the commit. tee he thought would be sufficient. The amendment, however, of the noble lord, taken altogether, was a very useful one, and, in the event of a division, be should give it his support. After a few words from Mr. A. MILLS, Mr. V. SMITH locked upon the amendments as mere sham. One of the main objects of the bill was to get rid of the secret committee altogether ; but both amendments were in fact to reconstruct that secret committee, He looked upon the proposed committee as a most cumbrous and inconvenieut hamper upon the Secretary of State. He thought that either the commit tee ought to be open to be whole Council, or else to rely upon the sole responsibility of the Secretary of State. Mr. P. O'BRIEN said the object was to have a re sponsible Minister to administer Indian affairs. If the Minister was to be responsible, what need was there of his having any advice from the Council ? In his opinion the amendment en t irely took away the responsi• bility of the minister. He hoped the house would not agree to the amendment. Mr. WILSON said he believed the amendment of the Lords would provide a check upon the Minister, and if that Minister had hitherto been under the necessity of citisa:tir, , even ccc r. - lemhzr cf. thc , C3ti-c:1, the d,3p:..tch of Lord Ellenborough would never have been sent out to India. Lord PALMERSTON said the foundation of the measure was, that for the present Government organisa tion should be substituted the single responsibility of tl - e Minister of the Crown ; and the amendment of the Lords, and the proposition of the noble lord the member for the City of London, were opposed to that princ'ple. He greatly objected to its being made compulsory upon the Minister to communicate his despatches to any par ticular person who was not a member of the Cabinet. Such a proposition was, in effect, shackling the Cabi net. He hoped the house would reject the amendment altogether. (Divide, divide.) The SPEAKER then put the amendment of Lord John Russell from the chair, and it was negatived without a division. On the question that the amendment made by the Lords be agreed to, The house then divided, when there appeared— For the Lords' amendment 3B Against it M,jority --68 The amendment was consequently rejected. The next amendment, by which the Lords sought to vest the patronage in the Secretary of State in Council, was opposed by Sir J. GRAHAM, who said the effect of the alterations _ _ would be to invest the whole of the Indian patronage in the Seeretary of State, subject only to a prote-t from the Council. As the bill went up to the Lords it was proposed that the patronage should be vested in the Se cretary of State, with the concurrence of the majority of the Council, and he thought they should either restore the words "with the concurrence of a majority of the Council," which were struck out in the Lords, or to vest it entirely in her Majasty. Lord STANLEY said he could not defend the Lords' amendment. The amendment was rejected without a division. The next amendment of the Lords to the same clause was objected to on the same ground, and rejected. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it would be convenient if he was now to move the adjourn ment of the debate until six o'clock. The motion was put from the chair and agreed to INTERNATIONAL PATENT RIGHT BILL. This ladl passed through c ,minittee. ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS BY COQ-. MITTEE BILL. This bill passed through eprnmittee. The sitting was then suspended. The house reQu riled at six o'clock. NOTICES OF MOTIONS. CEIURCFI RATES. ' Sir A. ELTON to move the following resolutions early next session :—" Ist, That this house, con-idering that the law cf church rates is productive of frtquent strife and litigation, and has become a dead letter in an increas ing number of parishes, deems it advisable to prohibit the levying of church rates except for payment of exist ing charges on the rates, and to confide the maint , nance of the fabric of the church to the zeal and liberality of the cler4y and laity ; 2ad. That in order to afford every facility for the free exercise of that zeal and libera ity, it is expedient that i❑ every parish the incumbent and churchwardens should form a corporation, wi.h power. n )twithetanding the morttaain laws, to take and to hold property granted, devised, or bequeathed for the pur poses of providing for the maintenance of the parish church, and to administer the monies thenca arising, as well as all funds annually contributed, for defraying , church expenses. 3rdly. Twat the authority of the pre sent vestry in every parish, with reference to the parish church, should be transferred to anew vestry to be named the church vestry,' on consent of parishioners ordinarily worshipping in the parish church and usually contribut 'ag towards defraying the coat of the repairs, the present vestry retaining its authority in secular affaiv. 4thly. Tbat churchwardens should be chosen exclusively from the members of the church vestry, and should cease to be overseers. stbly. That all deeds for giving effect to the purposes of these resolutions should be free from stamp duty." Mr. C. BUTLER, on the part of Mr. Alcnck, gave notice of his intention, early next session, to introduce a measura for the commutation of church rates. PUBLIC INCOME AND EXPENDITURE. Mr. WILSON gave notice that early next session he should move for a select commitree to inquire into the state of the funded and unfunded debt, and the public income and expenditure, with a view to the adoption of a system of di , charging in time of peace obligations con. , tracted in time of war. THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENTNG, JULY 28, 1858:- THE GOVERNMENT AT THE CAPE. Sir DE L. EVANS gave notice that early next ses sion he should call attention to the expediency of can tinning the present system of double government in our African dependencies at the Cape. JEWELS AND STARS OF THE ORDER OF THE BATH. Lord HOTHAM gave notice that early next session he should move an address to the Crown praying her Majesty would be pleased to allow the jewels and stars of the Knights of the Bath to remain after their deaths in the possession of their families. MILITARY HOSPITAL AND MEDICAL SCHOOL. Sir H, VERNEY begged to ask—the Royal corn miesion having shown the necessity f or a general Mili tary Hospital and Medical School, and a new h ospital being about to be erected at Aldershott—would her Ma. jesty s Government take into consideration whether this hospital might not be used for the purpose contemplated byG theeral Royal PEEL—Tee comlniss question of the establi s h ment of en Hospital and Medical School is u n d er a th G e eneralMilitary consideration of the Government, and it will be probably necessary hereafter to build an hospital at Al. derehott, and it may be considered desirable to establish a medical school there. No money, however, had been voted for the purpose this year. SHERIFFS (SCOTLAND). Sir W. DUNBAR begged to ask the Secretary of Slate for the Home Department whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to take advantage of any vacancies occurring in the sheriffships in Scotland, to effect the full accomplishment of the Act 16 and 17 Vic., cap. 92, fur diminishing the number of sheriffs in Scotland, by transferring any of the sheriffs of the counties to be united into one sheriff tom to such other sheritldoens as might become vacant by death or promo tions, and thus rave to the public revenue the salaries payable to the former, as was contemplated at the pass ing of the Act 16 and 17 Vic., cap. 80, by which the salaries of all the sheriffs in Scotland were increased ! Mr. WALPOLE—I am not aware that any such ex peetatien has lesen held out as has been referred to in the question of the hon. gentleman. Tee act of parlia ment is quite clear, its provision being that, with refer ence to fourteen sherifldems held by fourteen dif ferent sheriffs, whenever a vacancy occurs in one, the holder of the office in another should take the duties on himself, so that the number of sheriffs may be gradually reduced from fourteen to seven in the smaller counties in Scotland. Some vacancies in the smaller counties have occurred since the passing of the act, and in six out of the 14 smaller counties one sheriff is dis charging the duties of two cc:untie., which makes a re duction of three out of the 14 sheriffdom.. The questien which I suppose the noble baronet wishes to put is, whe ther if a vacancy occurs in one of the larger counties, the sheriff of one of the smaller ones shall be put into the office, so as to enable that small county to be united to others, w.th a v i ew to the diminution of the Lumber ? i naey case where a sheriff of a small county is of such known ability ac to render it advisable to promo`e him t n o o t a a l d a r v g i s e e r t o h n e e , crownth a treat course not t o select maybethtae best ken; b rn u a t n l t c o o a u p ld . point to the larger county merely to facilit-te the redric dilation of the number of sheriffs in the smaller orunt BREACH OF PRIVILEGE. —THE ATTORNEY GENERAL. Mr. SCHNEID ER. wi ed pet a qu es ti on to t.L. eL hon and learned gentleman the Attorney-General which involved a question of the breach of the privileges of the houses. It was his intention t have brough' the matter forward at length, but he did not yeah to stand between the proceeding with the India Bill, and he should con. tent himself with asking a question of the hon. and learned gentleman, and bring the matter before the house on Friday. He begged to ask the boo, and learned gentleman whether in his capacity as Attorney. General, and in the discharge of his duty to her Majesty, he had received any fee in reference to any bill in the discussion of which in the house he had taken part, and on which he voted on a divir,ion ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—It has been the practice from very early times, whenever a bill is brought ihto Parliament, whether it is brought forward by any department of the Government, or is a bill brought be fore the house at the instance of an individual member, which involves any question of the rights of the crown to any property of any description, to submit the bill, or the clauses which relate to the rights of the crown, to one or other, or both of the law officers of the crown, the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General. That practice is well known —must be well known to the members of every Government who have sat in the house in the present century, and must be and is known to the hon. gentle man who put the question. During the present session two bills, one of which was recently before the house, directly affected the rights of the Crown to property of considerable value. Those bills, in conformity with ancient practice, were submitted to the Attorney-Goneral and I believe to my hon. and learned friend the Solicitor General, under the usual circumstances and with the usual fees attached to them ; and certainly and un doubtedly in the discussion on that bill the Attorney- General and the Solicitor-General, as they felt bound in duty to the Crown to do, did take part, and in one, two, and, I believe, three divisions, I myself, and I believe rey hon. and learned friend the Solicitor-General took part. (Hear, hear.) THE WELLINGTON MONUMENT. Mr. S. WORTLEY, who had a motion on the paper to call attention to the subject of the Wellington monument, appealed to the Government whether he was not entitled to bring it on. He had given every facility to the Government business on the underitauding that he should have an opportunity of bringing the subject forward. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—It is always agreeable to me to meet the wishes of the hon. members on both sides of the house, and I have endea voured to do so. I put it to the house whether the ap peal male to me is reasonable ? (Rear.) I should not be doing my duty if I did not ask the house to proceed with the Lords' amendments to the India Bill. INDIA BILL. The consideration of the Lords' amendments was pro ceeded with. EXAMINATION OF THE MEDICAL SERVICE. On clause 51, Sir H. RA WLINSON objected to the amendment. The clause provided for the competitive examination of the civil service and the medical service. By the amend ment the !atter 7:13 and ;hi uiedical service became nominative. Practically there was now no cora petive examination for the medical service, for in the re cent instances the number of candidates did not equal the number of appointments ; there were very few ap plications and the appointments were not taken up. At the same time it was the wish of the house that the sys tem of competitive examination should be kept up for the medical service. Lord STANLEY said the question of competitive examination could be discussed oli the next clan,e. Ee imagined the examination of the civil service would ap ply to the medical service also. - The amendment was agreed to. On the amendment to clause 32, which altered the clause as sent up by the Commons, extending competi tive examination to all branches of th e military service, Lord J. RUSSELL said that he understood the noble lord wished the house to agree to the amendment of the Lords ; if so, there oueht to be some explana ion on the subject, for it seemed at first sight that a❑ extraordinary omission had been made in the cause by the Lords. It was his wish. and that of other [umbers of that house, teat the system of competitive examinatio❑ should be more gene rally introduced, so as to go beyond the civil service, and ernbracethe different branches of the army. The noble lord who had always declared hitn+elf favourable to the prin ciple of competitive examination, expressed his readi ness to include that principle in the bill ; but he ex pressed an opinion that it would be better in the first instance not to introduce it in all branches of the army, but to confine competitive examination to the civil ser vice and the scientific branches of the army—namely, the artillery and engineers. That was a fair proposal ou the part of the r•oble lord, and it was taken as the inten tion of the Government. But tt e Lards, while t ley had left in all the words relating to the examination, had left out the words which gave the persons who had under gone the examination a security that they should receive the reward of their labours, and they gave a power to the Crown to put an end to the system of competitive examination, for it was obvious that such examinations would be of no value unless the best men obtained the reward:: they sought. If that was to be the case the dis appointment would be so great that it was evident that no one would present himself for examination. It would, he thought, be necessary to restore the words which had been omitted. He objected to leaving this matter at the disere•.ion of the Minister of the Crown. The noble lord was in favour of the principle of compe titive examination, but another Secretary for India might be opposed to it, and would not carry it out. He thought the words in question should be restored, and shoull meet the amendment with a negative. Lord STANLEY said the noble 1,-,rd had done justice, not only to himself, but to the present Government, when he said that they were favourable to the principle of competitive examination. He had supported that prin ciple five years ago, when it was les+ understood and less popul,%r than now. He had not altered his view, and it had beau his pleasure, as well as his duty, to extend that principle to the scientific branches of the arcey in India. If the proposal to alter the elau , e had in his mind de- stroyed the right to the preeervation of diet principle, he would far rather have reeigued the situetien which he held than have agreed to it. (Hear.) But he thought that it would not have that effect, and be would explain in a few words how the matter stood. If the house eccepted the amendment of the Loris, it would only have the question of competitive examination for the civil service on the same footing as it stood in 1853, when the then President of the Board of Control intro duced a bill to sanction the principle of competition for the civil service, but that only gave power to the Crown to establish the system by order in council. If the Lords' amendment was adopted by the house, there would be no alteration, and the right would exist in the same man ner as ever. The change he proposed was to recognise directly by act of Parliament the principle of competitive examination, instead of by order is council When that was proposed, it was met by the olijection that it was not a constitutional course to give an administrative and executive act a parliamentary ti , le, and he believed that was correct. There was no instance in which a parliamentary ti le had been given. As to the obj-ction of the noble lord that it was in the power of a Mini-ter for India to put an end to the system, the security against that was that the order in council carrying out the system roust be superseded by another, waich must be laid before that house, which bad pronounced in favour of the system of competitive examination, and which it could hardly be in the power of any Minister to resist. What he relied upon was the necessity of an ap peal to the house before any alteration or ieodification of the system could take place. His belief was that whe ther the words were omitted as now proposed, or re• tained, the principle of unrestricted competition was eqnally safe, and certain to be mairita ned. Sir D. NORREYS supported the aim ndrnent. Sir J. GRA EIANI said if his noble friend (Lord John Russell) divided, he shou'd divide with him He had the utmost confidence in the assurenca of the noble lord the President of the Board of Control, because he well remembered the vote given by him in 1853 in favour of competitive examination. The noble lord seemed to think there was no practical difference between an order in council and a staturable recognition, which was part of the bill sent to the Lords. He differed with the noble lord altogether. It was a difficult thing to re peal an act of Parliament, but an • order in council might be dealt with by a single vote. Sir J. Lawrence, whose recent experience of civil appointments under com petition was so favourable, earnestly desired that the principle should be extended to the scientific branches of the army. On thi- point he was able to appeal to autho• rity, experience, and the decision of the House of Com mon, and could see no reason for the alteration which bad been male by the Lords. (Hear, hear.) Mr. WA.LPOLE said the question raised was, whe ther the house wished to tie up within the four corners of an act of Parliament a system which, under certain circumstances, it might he desirable to alter or modify. Teat was the danger to be apprehended from the inser• tion of such a clause. The security now given for the competitive system was as great a security as could be given short of Parliain -ntary legislation—gamely, that all regulation s made eh , old hi t laid on the taele within 14 days after the meeting of Parliament. The power of continuing competitive exitinivation was as complete as words could make it, suiiiict to this proviso, that the house should retain the pu ver of considering whether under all circumstances such regulations might or might not be reasonably altered, or modified. The right hon. gentleman (Sir J. Graham) was a great constitutional authority, and if . he were s itti ng on the ministerial b e nches he would say that nothing was so unadvisable with reference to Crown appointments as to deprive the minister, who was responsible for such appointeaente, of the power of taking that course with reference to the appointin3hts which might be desirable. If the words were retained that responsibility would be taken away, and no alteration could be made without another act of altogether Parliament. Wean) g it iv ft en o,:e p n to disereti, tn Mr. WILSON said the argument of the right hon. • gentleman eilr. Walpole) amounted to this, that the gea et f r ivol (Lord J. Ru-sell) (t,nti principlee. :no ) objectooof no)—or i t )f h m e hpP c eP l t au jit s ol e tam w we ( n i a u ts l B d t''o' b ebr e ed l ,et. Hs shoo dce r tra:ll:tili)YeesvSwe O t h .s i L ) with w lC e r i e T h e O i x s n a n m - I G ' i b n E e e d N rRA appointments remarked w that uldh the ave the same security which they at present possessed, namely, the security of an order in council, until it ; should be revoked cr modified, and that could not be done without inviting the opinion of the douse of Com mons. He ventured to think that would be a perfectly satisfactory security for the future, as it had been in times past. All parties were agreed about the principle of competitive examination. But as the clause left the House of Co:umoos the appointments were vested in the Crown, whilst the next line provided that the appoint ments should be under a parliamentary title, inde pendent of the Crown. That was a constitutional oh jection, and on that ground he siiiit:)er'oel amendment. (Hear, hear.) Sir E. COLEBROOKE had no confidence in the lan- ! ;nage held by the President of the Board of Control as to the watchfulness of fu llf e Parliaments. It was against the abuse of future Parliaments that the house bad to guard, and he treated the house would reject the Lords' amendment.• Mr. V, SMITR thought the principle of competitive examination would be carried out much more effectually by Act of Parliament than by order in council. The house then divided. The numbers were— For the Lords' amendment 6O Against - 73--13 The amendment was consequently disagreed to. Sir DE L. EVANS had a motion to submit with re gard to the scientific arrangements of the army. He proposed io reinsert the words omitted after the word " examination," as follems : "and the candidates who may be found enteled under such regulation shall be re commended f .r such cadetships according to the order of their proficiency, as shown by such examination." Lord STANLEY said the principle involved in the amendment of the hot), and gallant member was iden ti eatl with the last, and he should therefore not oppose it. The amendment was then agreed to. The Lords'amendments to clause 53 were disagreed to. On clause 55, Sir J. GRAHAM objected to the words " preventing cr," which had been inserted by the Lords, and ap proved of the spirit and object of the clause as it had left the Gammons. It was fram,d for the purpose of " repelling" actual invasion. Now all the aggressive wars in IF:dia had taken place under the pretext of "preventing" hostile movemente. As instances of this, he might mention the wars in Affghanistan and Seinde. If the words insetted by the Lords were allowed to re main the clau-n would be rendered altogether nugatory. When the Sikhs passed the Sutlej Lord Hardinge "repelled" them—drove them back again. That was a proceeding quite in conformity with the clause as it originally stood. Fanciful threatened invasions met by a hostile mcvernent beyond the frontier was precisely the course of proemding which had for the last century Ld to the most expansive and profligate wars. He pro p ed that the Lords' amendments be disagreed to. Sir F. SMITH observed that Lord Hardinge was in c'ined to believe that the Sikhs intended to invade our territories, and if be had acted upon that, and attacked them before they crossed the river, the war would have been ended much sooner. General CODRINGTON said there could be no doubt that in the case of the assemblage (,f a force intending to invade our territories, to attack that force would be our best defence. • Lord STANLEY did not think that the preventing of actual invasion world meet such a case as the Affgban war, because the Affghan war was carried on at a great distance from our then frontier. He did not think that any construction that could be put on these words, v.reventing or repelling actu a l i nvasion, " cou ld b e h el d to refer to the case o: occupation of a country a thou sand miles from cur own frontier, and which we occupied because there was a seance that another country might °there i•en obtain influence there, and 100 years hence invade cur territory from that point. En truth, how ),.;b:;-,llllllCil snore in its being a declaration of the intention and opinions o Parliament than is any binding force of the words them selves, becAu;e the other word=, " or under other sudden and urgent necessity," were sufficient to cover almost every thing, and they rendered almost superfluous the word, in question. Mr. RICH contended that by inserting the words, " prevent'ng or" they gave power to make unjust attacks on neighbouring states. Colonel SYKES thouoht that the phraseology of the words of an act of Parliament was not likely to prevent wars in India. Pa,t history told them that every Governor-General somehow or other found himself engaged in a war, and the home Government always felt them elves compelled to support him. The house then divided— For the Lords' amendment 95 Against it Majority Several other of the amendments were then agreed to. Lord S anley, the Chancellor of he Exchequer, the Solicitor-General, Lord John Russell, Sir J. Graham, and one or two others, were then appointed a committee to confer with the Lords on the amendments which had no; been agreed to. PaINCE EDWARD'S ISLAND LOAN BILL. The order for the second reading of this bill was dis charged. TRUSTEES, MORTGAGES, &c., BILL. The order for the second reading of this bill was also discharged. LEASES AND SALES OF SETTLED ESTATES Aar AMENDMENT BILL. On the order of the day for going into committee on this bill, Mr. AYRTON said he should 1 ke to have some fur her exp anatiots from the,Attorney-General respecting this bill, because, when the bill was in its last stage, a question was asked whether it was intended by this bill to enable Sir T. M. Wilson to enclose Hampstead Heath, and the Attorney-General said there was no in tention. Since then, however, the hon. member for Gloucestershire had l iven notice of his intention to move the omission of a clause, the omission of which would have that effect. He thought before they went into committee they ought to have an assurance that the Government would not carry out that object. If that question were brought on now, it would take the house by surprise. The ATTORNEY GENERAL .aid he stated the other night with perfect sincerity that he had no inten tion whatever, in carrying this bill tarongh the house, of introducing, or being the medium of introducing, any alteration in the law which would have the effect appre hended by the hon. gentleman. Mr. GILPIN said they ought to have an assurance from the Government that they would not support this proporation. Many who had depended on its not being brought f )r.card were not present. The ATTORNEY GENERAL observed that he bad no I,uthcrity from her Majesty's Government to give any tosaraace of the kind ; but lie dad no mention to support such a preposition. Mr. ROEBUCK did not object to the proposition, Gut there were c rcuznstaLces under which even a good thing ought L-it to be done, and he should oppose taking the hou.e by surprise. Mr. RO LT said no one would more deprecate taking the house by surprise than ho should, and under the circumstances he should withdraw his amendment. After a few words from Mr. WHITESIDE and Mr. Cox the house went into committee, and the various clauses were agreed to. Mr. ROLT observed, with reference to the 21st clause, the object ( f which is to prevent the act applying to cases in which application has been made to Pa rliament, that though for the reasons he had stated he should not now move the omission of the clause, he should take the first opportunity of remedying the injustice which he conceiv t d that clause inflicted. Mr. MA.LINS remarked that the clause in reality was aimed at an ind, vidual. It was exceptional legisla tion, and was unjust. The house then resumed.. COWLEY'S CHARITY BILL. The Lords' reasons for di-agreeing to the Commons' amendments to Ois bill were coasidered, snd it was re solved that the amendments by this house be not insisted upon. _ . _ The International Patent Right Bill passed through committee, was read a third time, and passed. The Administration of Oaths by Committees Bill was read a third time and passed. VACCINATION (IRELAND) GILL. Certain of the L9rd.i'amendnaents were not agreed to, and a committee was appointed to draw up reasons why the houee di,sented. THE WELLING T ‘ho O tecih N mealto; M nfbuo o yrin N teth lT hnete M ttemo E r mo N tnhs T ueo . nalfatethne et Duke oi)ormo Mr. S. WORTLEY called the attentio n o f th e h ouse to po t h fe e t ‘i vt c i o eo m l al i p nu e gri t t i do t e i n o r, n wa r nh e c a hm t i o v tv a hee t d o m‘ t posed to lea erected to tho memory of the late Duke of Wel lington in St. Paul's Cathedral were lately exhibited in Westminster Hall, the artists competing were no, entitled to expect that any of their works would be executed at the expense of the nation unless on the ground of their intrin sic merit ; and whereas the judges had not recommended for execution any of the works so exhibited, and a new and wholly different site had since been determined upon for this great national monument, it was therefore expe dient that a limited number of distinguished artists should be further employed by her Majesty's Government to fur nish models with, special reference to the new site and altered circumstances, and that those artists should be re munerated for their labour, and their models purchased for the country." The right hon. gentleman observed that in bringieg forward this resolution, he was only express ing the strong feeling of dissatisfaction which prevailed both in the house and out of doors with reference to the ceurea which he believed was about to be adopted. No thing could be further from his wish, however, than to embarrass his noble friend (Lord J. Manners) ; on the con trary, he hoped to afford a valuable assistance to his noble friend and the Government by 'enabling them to ascer tain with more precision what the opinion of the public really was on the subject. The late competition had not produced a single model or design which hal been adopted for execution ; but he understood his noble friend to en trust the work not to the first prizeman, Mr. Marshall, but to Mr. Stephens, a prizeman who did not stand higher than the sixth. Tint was a course which he did not hesitate to say had filled every one with surprise. It was true that by the terms of the competition the Government were not holm l to give the commission to the gainer of the first Ariz; ; but an intimation was certainly given to the com petitors that such would probably be the case. He under stoo l that what was proposed was to adopt Mr. Stephens' design, but to employ Mr. Marshall to execute the sculp ture. He (Hr. Wortley) was quite prepared to agree with his noble friend that M. Stephens's model was a very graceful one ; but at the same time Mr. Stephens's name was new to the world both as an architect and as a sculp tor. It would surely, therefore, be a very bold thing to entrust to the memo designer of a graceful model the respon sillility of carrying out a work like the present. The truth wes the kedges all concurred that there was nsoet v one very terms of r the s mo leis exhibited that was worthy of being executed ; and toem they had been deterred from reporting in h by nothing but consideration for the artists. Since the designs had been exhibited, the site of the proposed monu ment hid been chanced. Before, it was proposed to place it under one of the nave niches ; but now it had been de termined to devote to the purpose one of the chapels of the cathedrel. Ife (Mr. S. Wortley) rejoiced at the change; and ho hoped that, at no distant petiod, monuments to other distinguished men would be erected in subeedie e . tion to, hut still associated with, that of the Creat Cap. tale. Among those none could be more fitting than a monument, to Lord Raglan. and he hoped that the national gratitude M °aid ere long do justice to the memory of one who had sacrificed his life to the public service at an age when he might base looked forward to many years of well earned repose. (Cheers ) In the first instance, applica tioi.s Lo furnish designs fur the Wellington Monument had been made to four of the most eminent artists in this coon try---Mr. Bailey, Mr.iFoley,lMr. Gibson, and Baron Hero chetti. The two first complied with the request; but th two last declined, on the ground that they did not take Part, competitions of any kind, Baron Meensh to e accee i was only less paiu ful than to fail. M essrs . B a il e y a nd Foley 'a designs were not considered satisfactory, and they applied to the go vernment for more precise information as to what was warted. Tbegoverement of the day, instead of answer ing th e question, determined on a public competition. Ho (Mr. Woitley) did not altogether regret that the com petition had taken place, but he must, at the same time, express his opinion that such a mode of proceeding was not only unfair to the profession, but absolutelyoruel, A good model cost between 2004. and 30 1 ./. ; and its prepara tion often reduced a poor artist to the greatest embarass ment and distress. What would be thought of a sovereign who, when ill, threw open his case to public competition, and offered a fee to the physician who gave the best advice? Or what would have been said if the Earl of Shrewsbury had attempted to select counsel by open competition? (Hear.) The fact was, artists felt that this mode of deal ing with them was an insult, because it was oue pursued with respect to no other liberal profession. The Nelson Monu ment had been put up to competition—was that satisfac tory? On the contrary it was as conspicuous a failure as could be found in any capital in Europe. (Hear.) Some of the finest works in art had been produced by competi tion, in the sense of noble emulation. It was the rivalry of Michael Angelo and Raffaelle that had produced the Transfiguration and the Raising of Lazarus. The largest amount he had heard named for a monument, independent of a statue, was 10,0,;0/. ; and he should propose that the remainder of the money should be spent in purchasing models. Ho believed there was an unworthy jealousy of architec's in the matter of this monument. His noble friend had an advantage over those who had gone before him in tha assistance of Mr. Cockerell, and it was of im portance in a work of this kind that the sister arts—archi tecture and sculpture—should go together. It was the vice of artists of the present day that they confined themselves to particular branches, instead of doing as the first artists of Italy had done—making themselves acquainted with every branch. He concurred with Lord Lansdowne that this ought not to be treated as a departmental question. He would leave the responsibility, therefore, not to any department, but to the general government. He saw no objection to leave the question to a jury of artists In his resolution he embodied the proposition that the bast way to create emulation would bo to select a number of distinguish° I artists, and to pay them for their trouble, and time, and talent, in preparing models. With regard to extending the competiti on t o f ore i gn artists, though he ehould have preferred to make that competition as wide as possible, it was doubtful whether, under all the circumstanc, sit would he necessary to go beyond the limits of these kingdoms. They hart plenty of money in hand to remunerate them, and if a number of the most distinguished artists of the country were selected, with the understanding that they were to send in designs, for which, whether they were successful or not, they would be paid, they would create a noble emulation, and something would be produced worthy of the country. Mr. B. HOPE urged that it was desirable to have adopted the principle of competition in this matter; at the same time that system of unlimited competition often led to unsatisfactory results, and be gave several amusing illustrations of the result s o f the system. But in these days much must be hazarded to obtain much, and efforts should be made to induce our great artists to compete for national objects. Without analysing the scheme of his noble friend he thought it was such an one as called for the modal° 1 ctlnsure implied in the motion of his right hon. friend. Why should action be taken on this subject now at this late period of the session, and why .theel I Lis nettle f. Ihe cell.; Ito ed, l it the questionable and expensive course of a third competition I The design of Mr. Stephens which hid been chosen, though rough in execution, bore marks of genius, and he was one of those artists that ought to be encouraged ; besides which he was a prizeman, though not the first. Under all the circumstances it seemed to him that his noble friend had come to a wise decision, and he would u rge on hi s r i g ht h on. f r i en d no t to press his motion ; and he trusted that the Chief Com missioner of Works would be able to produce such a monu ment to the Duke of Wellington as after ages might ap prove. Mr. CONINGHAM said ho was at a loss to know what were the views of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. S. Wort ley). The right hon. gentleman had in the first place expressed admiration of the plan for the monument which had been adopted ; then he objected to competition for such purposes; and ho concluded by proposing to throw the designs open to competition. Mr. S. WORTLEY—OnIy to a limited number of com petitors. Mr. CONINGHAM had understood the right hon. gentleman to propose a further competition. The monu ment selected was the work of a young artist, but it exhi bited great ingenuity of design and great vigour of execution. It w.s at first proposed to place it in one of the arches of St. Paul's, but the site had now been changed to the Con sistory Court ; but as the Cousistory Court was of the same height as the arches, it would be equally well adapted for that position. He congratulated the noble lord on the selection ho had made, and he hoped that the right hon. gentleman would not press his motion. Lord J. MANNERS had heard with much gratification the views which had been expressed by hon. gentlemen whose opinions were far better entitled to weight than his own upon questions of art. He thought that, after the ob servations of the hon. member for Alaidstone (Mr. Hope), and the hon. member/ for Brighton (Mr. Ooningham), his right hon. friend the member for Bute (Mr. S. Wortley) must be satisfied there were gentlemen who were at least as competent as himself to form a judgment on this subject, who approved the course adopted by Her Majesty's Govern ment. He was, however, happy to find that upon several important points he agreed with his right hon. friend, and that they only had the misfortune to differ upon matters of minor importance. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Wort ley) had said that ho th nal the selection of a site was most fortunate; that, so far as the prize designs were con cerned, he conceived that the Government had chosen the best—and that they had taken the most valuable advice they could obtain. He (Lord J. Manners) put it to the houso whether they would now take the matter out of the hands—feeble as he admitted they were—of those who were responsible for its conduct, and elect themselves into a committee of taste to upset all the arrangements which hid been made, and to defer for an indefi site period the erection of a national monument to the Duke of Welling ton. He had the misfortune to differ with his right hon. friend the member for Bute on some minor points. The right hon. gentleman admitted that out of the 83 designs submitted to competition the best had been selected, but he said that the terms on which competition was invited were such as could give the competitors no reasonable hope that any one of them would be selected. He (Lord J. Manners) certainly did not put the same construction upon the terms of the notice, which were as fol ows : "The Commissioners of her Majesty's Works and Pub lic Buildings give ❑otice that it is the intention of her Ma jesty's Government to erect a monument in St. Paul's Cathedral, London, to the memory of the late Duke of Wellington, and that they are prepared to receive designs for the same from artists of all countries." His right hon. friend might, however, rely upon the con cluding paragraph of the notice : "If, however, the artist to whom the highest premium may be awarded shall be employe 1 to execute his design he will not be entitled to receive any premium." His right hon. friend had put upon this sentence the inter pretation of a lawyer, bat he (Lord J. Manners) believed its meaning was that if any artist who had not received the highest prize was selected he would be entitled to a premium in addition to the prize for the model. He said that a great country had no rght to invite the artists of all the world to compete unless they were resolved that that competition should lead to some substantial re sult, always provided that among the designs sent in there was one or more which were worthy of adoption. (Hear.) It all turned upon that question. Now, who was to decide this point? Was his right hon. friend or anybody else in this house to say that out of the 83 designs sent in not one was worthy of being executed? [Lord Eicho—" The judges said so."] They said no such thing. They did not, indeed, declare that any one of the designs was worthy of erection; but though they left this point in the dark, they added : " We cannot at the same time forbear suggesting that before any design is finally adopted by the Government, it would be desirable, considering the peculiarity of the situa tion contemplated, and that it essentially differs from that of all the other monuments now existing in the cathedral, the opinion of some experienced artists should be called for, who would be better judges of the local effect than we consider ourselves to be ; more especially as Mr. Cockerell, the only one of the appointed judges professionally con nected with the arts, though we have derived from him valuable assistance and information in the progress of the examination, has declined on that account taking a part in the ultimate decision." It was quite clear that this, the only recommendation made, authorised the consideration of the local effect which t w h o a t t i would du e G p o r v od er t n i c m e d e n be y s t h he ou I d d e si gselected, confer n with and those e s es parsons ed most competent to give advice before arriving at a final decision. Now, this was exactly the course he had taken. In the first instance he had satisfied his own mind, as well as he could, that some one design was worthy of adoption, and having done so he invited the gentleman to whom re ference had been made in terms of such deserved commen dation carefully to examine the prize designs. He (Lord J. Manners) had not indicated the bias of his own mind, but Mr. Penrose informed him that design No. 18, which he had previously selected, was the one which, in his opinion, best suited the locality, and was most deserving of erection. He thought he should have grossly neglected his duty if he had not availed himself of Mr. Penrose's as sistance ; and if his right hen. friend meant to say that he had any previous knowledge of this gentleman he laboured under a cotnplete mistake, His (Lord J. Manners') know ledge of Mr. Penrose was, if he might use the term, purely professional; but he felt that the recommendation of the judges was a sound one, and he knew he could not act upon it in a more satisfactory manner than by calling for the valuable advice on which he had acted. Now, he was au thorised by Mr. Penrose to say that he should view it as a great misfortune if this house were in any way to put a stop to the proceedings instituted with respect to this mo nument. He put it to the house, therefore, after all that had transpired, considering, as his right hon. friend h a d pointed out, that six years had elapsed, and that yet no monument had been erected, whether they would take the course of throwing the whole mat ter into inextricable con fusion by adopting the proposal now made. The right hon. gentleman had to a certain extent sketched the proceedings which had taken place, and ho would venture to describe the steps by which they had arrived so slowly and unsatis factorily at their present position. In 18;4 the then First Commissioner of Works invited a limited competition for this monument., and selected four sculptors of undoubted eminence—Mr. Bailey, Mr. Foley, Baron Marochetti, and Mr. Gibson. Of these gentlemen two declined to enter into the competition, and Baron Marochetti returned this answer to Sir William Molesworth : "I am flatter3d that my name has been placed on the list of sculptors from whom it has been proposed to select one to execute the monument to the Duke of Wellington in St. Paul's Cathedral. I hasten to express to you my thinks for the honour thus con':erred upon me, but I must decline to engage in a competition in which success would be only less painful than failure. If, however, the proposed competition should not produce the desired r2sult, and if in such an event I should be judged worthy of employment on the work, I should with pride bestow on it the utmost efforts of my art, no less on account of the man who is to be commemorated, than of the place the monument is to occupy." Mr. Gibson, writing frotn Rowe, sent an answer much more curt in its terms:— In communication o‘ry o h f a v h e i s theorai Grace oe e atmshueer respecting late acknowledge pe eltui nicgoa f Invioeni t in h i ighetonontno. to o r It o hb f ee your - say that I am always ready to undertake any work of im• portance for my country, but decline to send designs in competition." Did his tight hon. friend nropoie to ask those two eminent men again to compute? [Hr. S. Wortley.--" Not to coin pete."] Then, in the name of common grilse, what were they to do ? [Hr. S. Wortley.—" To emula e."] To emu late ! Well, he was a plain man, and could not apprehend these nice distinctions, nor did he think the sculptors would be less puzzled by them than he was. (Hear ) Did his right hon. friend mean to say that the offer of 3') 1 weul;l 1.1 Li; bAweeu cAupetition and emulation ? He (Lord J. Mann re) did not think so badly of those eminent sculptors as to imajt.e that the certainty of a small sum of money would induce them to enter into a competition which the invitation of the Go vernment had not induced them to enter. But Mr. Bailey and .111. Foley, both sculptors of groat eminent.', did not decline this invitation They entered into the limited competition proposed, but what was the result? The Goveinment of the day, no doubt rjghtly, decided that neither of their deeigue was worthy of being executed, Now, in the office of the First Commissioner of Works was a most valuable and important reply from the pen of Mr. Bailey to the letter which announced this decision to him. Mr. Bailey pointed out all the evils which must result to art if, when a limited competition wee entered upon, none of the designs sent in were selected for execution. He (Lord J. Manners) wished he had found it possible to present to the house prior to this debate Mr. Bailey's let ter and other papers relating to this subject, but as they wore rather in the nature of private letters than of pub lic papers, he hardly felt justified in so doing. The whole tone and tenour of Mr. Bailey's communication, how. ever, were such as w o uld ma k e hi m ver y reluctant toin vite any limited competition without a clear decision beforehand that, whatever might be merits of the designs sent in, one or the other should be selected. (Hoar, hear.) Mr. Bailey pointed out that by inviting artists to enter into such a competition, and then throwing their designs over and instiiuting an unlimited competition, you gave to the second competitors the inestimable advantage of pilfer ing ideas from those who had first sent in designs. (Hear.) But now apply the objection taken with so much force by Mr. Bailey in a case where only two designs were in ques tion to this new proposal of a second limited competition after no less than 83 designs had been submitted for com petition. (Hear.) Was it not clear that those whose de signs had thus stood the test of public criticism might fairly say, " You have no right now to hand over the com petition to a limited number of gentlemen, selected by the favouritism of the Government of the day, when there is a possibility that they may pick here and there from the d signe which have cost us so much thought, labour, time, and money, expended by some of the poorest and most struggling artists in the world ?" He had heard that sen tence of the speech of the right hon. gentleman with the greatest pleasure. It was just, and be asked the House of Commons to act in accordance with it. His right hon. friend pointed out what these struggling artists were called upon to do—what sacrifices of time, labour, and money were ontaile 1 upon them ; and he asked that, in return, the House of Commons should not, without the most weighty considerations, set aside their designs. He asked his right hon. friend whether he thought he had assigned any satisfactory reason for departing on this occasion from what ought to be the general rule? They had not heard his right hon. friend say that he was himself of opinion that the design which had been selected was unworthy of being completed. The right hon. gentleman told them that he had privately canvassed all the judges, and that they had all told him they signed their report without in tending to have their approbation of any one of the designs acted upon. All he could say was, that if such were the case, it was the duty of the judges to have made that clear before all the world. (Hear, hear.) He could find no such declaration in their report. On the contrary, after reading the report with the most minute care he could bestow, he had arrived at the opposite conclusion. In private the judges had not told him anything of the sort, and he thought the House of Commons would do well not to act upon thes- privalo r corrimendr 4 inng, whi-h those wbo tin di thew declined to pact. (Hear.) As he believed the report of the judges, he felt fully justified in the course which he had taken ; and the more he gathered the opinions of those who were able to speak with authority upon the subject, the more he was fortified in the decision at which he had arrived. He believed that the opinion which he had al ready quoted of Mr. Penrose was shared by men in the highest position in artistic circles. He believed that if the Home of Commons did not now interfere her Ma jesty's Government would be able at no distant period to afford the gratification to the people of this country of see ing, in the noblest site which St. Paul's Cathedral pre sented, a monument erected worthy alike of the great man whom it commemorated and the budding in which it was placed. (Cheers.) But if at the fag end of the session, in a house so thin as that which he was now ee'dreseing, his light hon. friend induced the House of Commons to pass this resolution, it would paralyse the hands of the Execu tive and of the artists as well, and trace over again the un fortunate history of so many of the public monuments of England. (Hear, hear.) The Government would be re luctant, under those circumstances, to take upon them selves any responsibility in those thorny matters of art, and artists would be disgusted at the manner in which they were treated in being asked to enter again into a limited competition without any certainty that anyone of the com petitors would be employed. They had been invited to a limited eompetition with no result ; they had been invited to an unlimited competition with worse than no result; and it was proposed to invite them to a second limited competition with no certain prospect—he would say, with no hope—of any fortunate result. His right hen, friend indulged in a dream if he supposed the Primo Minis ter, burdene 1 as he was with affairs of state, would under take to go from studio to studio, attended by a jury of artists, all differing in opinion, all anxious to carry out their own views, and some very possibly biassed by per sonal considerations in favour of one or other of the com peting sculptors. The Prime Minister must from necessity devolve the responsibility upon the Minister whose duty it was, from the nature of his office, to make the selection in a case of this.kind ; and he trusted and almost be lieved his right hon. friend, whose whole speech was characterised with so much kindness and courtesy to him self, did not intend to press his motion to a division. He thought the house would be ill-advised if they passed the resolution, and he entreated them not to agree to it, but to leave the matter in the hands of the responsible Ministers of the Crown, who, after two competitions, felt themselves in a position to arrive at a final decision, which they be lieved would be satisfactory to the country. (He r, hear.) His hon. friend t;ie member for Brighton had alluded to the expediency of placing on the proposed site a model of tho full size of the monument. The proposal was most admirable, and should he be intrusted with the future prosecution of the task it was his intention to propose to Mr. Stephens that a model of that character should be erected in the Consistory Chapel, so that before anything , was finally decided those who took au interest iu the ques tion might have an opportunity of examining it. If the result of that exhibition should be to show that Mr. Stephens was not competent to execute the chief figure of the design, it was the wish of Mr. Stephens that Her Majesty's Government should only leave to him the execu cntion of the design and appoint some other artist to exe cute the figure. Frankly, he had no fear himself that a man of genius, as Mr. Stephens had shown himself to be, would fail in that earticular; but, in justice to the modesty and good feeling of a young and rising artist, he mentioned that Mr. Stephens had expressed no objection to the proposal, and that it met with his entire approbation. (Hear) If the House thought him unworthy of the position in which Her Majesty had been pleased to place him he should of course bow to their decision ; but he thought he had sh swn that the tour: e which he had adopted was consistent with the views of those who had the best means of forming a sound opinion. He was satisfied himself that if no inter ference now took place, and if the Government were per mitted to carry out those intentions which they had indi cated, the result would be success; but if, on the other hand, impediments were thrown in the way, there would be interminable delay, constant bickerings, and their suc eessors would say there had been a complete mistake in the management of that which ought to be one of the greatest monuments of a great nation (Cheers.) Mr. CO WPER said, the reasons assigned by Lord John Manners for the course he had taken were not satisfac tory to his mind. When competition was invited pre ference should be given to the most. successful. The monu ment now to be erected was not that competed for; if de signs were c died for adapted to the new site, a f ar b e t ter would be obtained than the one chosen. Mr. STIRLING was not convinced by the arguments a. Mr. Wortley, and should vote against the motion. Lord ELCHO said the question they had to consider was not so much a question of art as a question of common sense. He could not agree in the opinion teat his noble friend had adopted the wisest course in reference to this monument. Lord Lansdowne had stated in the House of Lords that none of the models possessed such commanding merit as to win the decided approbation of the judges, and that he believed was the opinion of the public. (Hear.) Why then should they be compelled to adopt any one of these models ? The competition was a signal failure. His noble friend con demned his own scheme, for he did not propose to give the execution of the work to the first prizeman, but to the sixth, and not him alone, but to him and two others, namely, Mr. Penrose and Mr. Marshall, There was an old saying, that too much cooking -poiled the broth, and he was afraid that this might be the result in the present instance. He believed the truth to be that his noble friend was fond of a quiet life, and that for that reason he gave to three persons instead of one the execution of this monument. He denied that they were bound in spirit, or in letter, or in honour, to accept any of the designs submitted to public exhibition. (Hear, hear.) He was in favour of the principle of competition, and it was because ho was in favour of competition that he thought the Government acted on a bad principle in this matter. The object was to erect a suitable monument to the memory of the Duke of Wellington. He did not think the Government adopted the bast course to secure that object. 119 was afraid that the result might be the erec tion of a monster monument, such as that in Hyde Park. Sir B. HALL said, when he held the office of FiretCom ritissioner of Works, he suggested to the Government that they should have recourse to unlimited competition with regard to the monument proposed to be model to the memory of the Duke of Wellington. There had previously been a limited competition. as stated by his hon. f r i en d (Hr. Wortley), under which Mr. Foley and Mr Bailey had sent in designs which were not deemed worthy of adoption by the Government. Then it was that he (Sir B. Hall) proposed to resort to unlimited competition ; and, looking at the object in view, and the large sum of money that was to be expended upon it, he thought that the best prin ciple on which the house or the Government could act. (Hear, hear.) Allusion had been male to the terms of the competition issued from the Office of Works, and to their being strongly guarded. They were peculiarly guarded, because he felt, where the competition was Were lutely unlimited, it might be possible in a case of this kind that persons might be capable of sending in very pretty designs, calculated to strike the eye, but who might be incapable of carrying out those designs in marble or any other material which might be decided upon. (Hear, hear-) The suggestion he had made resulted in the ex hibition of designs which were seen in Westminster -hall. They had two exhibitions of designs there, and ho never saw so groat a contrast as that between the designs exhibited for the public offices and those for the Wel. liugton nonument. (Hear, hear ) He admitted that the exhibition of designs for the Wellington Monument was a failure. That opinion was confirmed by the judges, and, ho believed, by the public at large. (Hear.) In a competition of that nature he thought it was the duty of the Government to give the execution of the design to one of the successful competitors, provided—and ho wished that to lee understood—there was the conviction on the pert of those who had to decide, that the talent displayed in the competition and the known practical experience of the competitors, afforded to the public a sufficient security for the successful and proper execution of the work in the event of its being entrusted to any one of them. With re gard to the site, he begged to remind the house that at first the only site that could be procured was under . ne of the arches. Since that time the Consistory Court had become vacant, and it had been placed at the disposal of the noble lord. Now, it had struck him very forcibly that the de sign which had been prepared for one part of the building could not with any propriety be put up in another part of the building for which it was in no way adapted. (Hear.) He believed it would be extremely difficult so to alter the design as to make it suitable for the Consistory Court. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord had stated that before any thing noes done he would have the model exhibited ; he hoped that in the meantime he wou:d reconsider the whole euhj,et. With that understanding ho thought they should leave the responsibility with the Government. He knew the extreme difficulties which the noble ler h. -1 to undergo „eel Lee wenht be the last man to do anything to increase those difficulties. He entreated him, however, to comider fully this subject, and if he should see that the model as now designed really could not be put into the chapel with effect, then let him communicate either with the successful competitors or with other artists, se that the monument might be put up as speedily as pos sible. (Hear, hear.) Mr. M. MI LNES was afraid they must come to the con. elusion that; the competition for the best design for this monument was a failure, and he thought they should consider what was best to be done outside that competition, lii thought the best thing for the Minister would be to call into council all the distinguished artists, whether they joined in the competition or not. His noble friend would do well to put aside his present design, and ask the artists of this and foreign countries who had or had not succeeded to send their designs, not with a view of obtaining prises or any such regulations. Under these circumstances , there was nothing to injure the pride of any distinguished man. It would be far better to have no work at all than have a work which was not worthy of the nation. They had better say distinctly that they had fotnd no one max who could erect such a work that was worthy the nation, than have a statue which was not worthy of the nation. Mr. MACARTHY remarked that there was no instance ' of a man on horseback having been allowed to enter a tem pie. Mr. WORTLEY said he understood that under no nit , cutnstances would the authorities of St. Paul's allow a figure of a person on horseback to be erected in St. Paul's. Ho did not undervalue Mr. Penrose, but he did not think he was so well known that the public would like to have the work committed to him and Mr. Stephens. Through• out this debate he had beau represented as recommending a second limited competition. He recommended no such thing. What he recommended was that they should, as his hon. friend the member for Pontefract said, set aside all that had taken place at the competition, which had utterly failed in producing any worthy design, but that they should excite emulation by employing the principal artists who were known in Europe to send in designs, making it certain that the best design would be adopted, and then he had the best reason for believing that there was not one of them who would not produce a design. The house then dividsd— For the m0ti0n..........,....,.... 26 Against it... 4l Majority SUBALTERNS OF THE ARMY. Colonel FREESTUN then moved that an humble ad dress be presented to her Majey, praying that she will be graciously pleased to take into consideration the unfavour able position of the subalterns of the army with a view of affording them relief. The expenses to which subalterns were put amounted to 1571. a year, while their pay was only 951. Other expenses were thrown upon them by re• moral from place to place. He would suggest that an addition of ls. 6d. a day should be made to the pay of the subalterns, which would only entail an increased expense of 8 ,000/. a year. Mr. P. O'BRIEN seconded the motion. Sir W. FRASER said the motion met with his entire concurrence. He thought that great relief might be afforded to subalterns by the Government taking upon itself the furnishing of their rooms, which might be done at a com• paratively small cost. He considered, too, that subalterns ought not to be called upon to subscribe to the regimental bands. Fe regarded the mess as a valuable institution, as tending to promote a good feeling amongst brother officers, and ha thought that their pay ought to be such as to enable th,:ln t,, afford the expense. At the same time he suggested that it would be better to bring forward the subject on another and more favourable occasion. (Hear, hear.) Sir F. SMITH moved the adjournment of the debate. Mr. WESI'IIEAD and Sir W. CODRINGTON expressed their opinion that the pay of subalterns was ludicrously inadequate._ General PEEL trusted the gallant colonel would 000 that at this period of the session it was impossible to en• tertain the subject, and that he would bring forward the subject again early next session. (Hear, hear.) Colonel FREESTUN then withdrew his motion. EQUITABLE COUNCILS OF CONCILIATION. Mr. MACKINNON obtained leave to bring in a bill 011 this subject. The house adjourned at twenty minutes to 1 till 4 o'clock on Thursday. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. HOUSE OF COMMONS—JuLY 27. GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (No. 3) BILL. Order for consideration of Lords' amel dments read. Amen& went, page 9, at the end of clause 27, read a second time —Amendment proposed, to insert after the words " cost' municated to," the words " a committee consisting Of. four :"—Question, "That those w or d s b e th ere i nserte d,'" Put, and negatived :—Motion made, and question put: " That this house doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment ;" The house divided; Ayes 38, Noes 106. AYES-38. Adeane, 11. Greene, John Russell, Lord J. Anderson, Sir J. Gregson, Samuel Smith, A. Berkeley, Hen. 11, Grenfell, Charles W. Sykes, Colonel Bake, J. Griffith, C. Thompson, General Bonham-Carter, J. Knatetibull-Huguessen Thornely, T. Clay, James Mangles, R. D. Verney, Sir H. Coningham, W. Melgund, Lord White, James Cox, W. Nisbet, R. P. Williams, W. Dunbar, Sir W. 'Pigott, F. Willoughby, J. Dunlop, A. Puller, Christopher Wilson, J. East, Sir J. Rawlinson, Sir H. Elphinstone, Sir J. Rich, H. TELLERS. Elton, Sir A. H. Ridley, George Ayrton, A. Forster, Charles Roupell, W. Bowyer, G. NOES-106. Arbuthnott, Gen. H. Gilpin, C. Paklngton, Sir J. Bagshaw, Robert Graham, Sir J. Palmerston, viscount Bailey, C. Greer, Samuel Patten, Col, Saline, 11. Grogan, Edward Peel, Gen. Bernard, W. Gurdon, Brampton Pilkington, J. Bass, M. Hall, General John Pritchard, J. Beach, W. Hamilton, Lord Claud Scott, Major Iteecroit, G. Hamilton, U. A. Sibthorp, Major Blakemore, T. Hankey, T. Smith, V. Boldero, Col. IL G. Hardcastle, Joseph Smith, Sir F. Brady, J. Hardy, G. Spooner, R. Bridges, Sir B. Hatchell, John Stanhope, J. Bruce, (I. A. Hope, Alexander Stanley, Lord Buchanan, Walter Hotham, Lord Stapleton, John Burghley, Lord Hume, W. Stuart, Colonel Butler, .ir J. Jervoise, Sir J. Sullivan, Michael Butler, C. S. Johnstone, H. B. Turner, J. A. Cairns, IL Kellj, Sir F. Vance, John Campbell, R. Kinnaird, A. Vansittart, W. Cecil, Lord .R, Knight, F. Verner, Sir W. • Clack, J. Knox, Col. B. W. Villiers, C. Codriugton, Gen. Langton, H. G. Walcott, Admiral. Colebrooke, Sir E. Lennox, Lord H. G. Walpole. S. Collins, T. Lovaine, Lord Warren, S. Cooper, E. J . Lowther, Col. H. C. Watkins, Col. Corry, H. T. L. Lygon, Hon. F. Westhead, .reSiltla Cross, H. A. Lytton, Sir E. Whiteside, J. Davie, Sir H. R. F. Macartney, George Whitmore. H. Disraeli, B. Manners, Lord J. Willcox. B. Duff, M. Maxwell, J. IVillyams, E. Evans, Sir De Lacy Mills, Arthur Yorke, F. Far. j uhar, Sir AL Naas, Lord Young, A. Fitzgerald, W. R. S. Newark, Viscount Forrester, Col. Newport, Viscount TELLERS. Freestun, Colonel Norreys, Sir D. Gard, R. Northcote, Sir S. Jolliffe, Sir W. Garnett, William O'Brien, P. Taylor, Colonel Amendment in page 14, line 23, read a second time :—Queg' tiou put, "That this house doth agree with the Lords 1 0 tho said amendment :"—The house divided; Ayes 60, Noes 73. AYES— GO. A dderley, C. Hamilton, Lord C. Patten, Col. W. Bailey, C. Hamilton, G. A. Peel, Gen. Braille, H. Hardy, G. • Rolt, J. Bernard, Col. Hope, A. Sibthorp, Major Beach, W. Hotham, Lord Smith, Sir F. Beecroft, G. Hume, W. Spooner, R. Blakemore, T. Kelly, Sir F. Stanhope, J. Boldero, Col. H. G. Knox, Col. B. W. Stanley, Lord Bridges, Sir B. Lennox, Lord H. Stirling, William Burghley, Lord Lovaine, Lord Sturt, Col. Cairns, H. Lygon, Hon. F. Vansittart. W. Codrington, General Lytton, Sir G. Verner, Sir W. Corry; H. T. L. Macartney, G. . Walcott, Admiral Cubitt, W. Malhis, R. Walpole, S. Disraeli, B. Manners, Lord J. Warren, 8. East, Sir J. Milnes, M. Whiteside, I. Farquhar, Sir M. Naas, Lord Whitmore, H. Fitzgerald, W. R. S. Newport, Viscount Willoughby, J. Forester, Col. North, Col. J. TELLERS. Gard, R. North cote, Sir S. Jolliffe, Sir W. Gaskell, J. Paking•ton, Sir J. Taylor, Col. NOES-73, Adeane, 11. Garnett, W. Ridley, G. Akroyd, E. Gilpin, Charles Russell, Lord I. Baines, Rt. Hon. M. Graham, Sir J. Schneider, H. Bass, 51. Greene, J. Saelley, Sir J, Bethell, Sir R. Greer, S. Smith, R. V. Blake, J. Gregson, S. Smith, A. Buckley, Gen. Griffith, C. Somerville, Sir W. Butler, C. Hankey, T. Stapleton, J. Calcult, 31. Hatchell, J. Sykes, Col. Campbell, R. Kinnaird, A. Thompson, Gen. Clifford, Csl. Luce, T. Thornely,:T. Cobbett, J. M. 3lacarthy, A. 'i turner, J. C. Coke, W. Mangles, R. Vance, J. Colebroke, Sir T. Me il l l g s u , Andr,thiw Viscount v V i c i r ue ne r y s:c. Sir R. Collins, C. Mills, Coningham, W. Moffatt, G. Westhead, J. Cowper, W. F. Morris, D. White, J. Cos, William Nisbet, Robert Williams, W. Craufurd, E. H.J. Norreys, Sir D. Williams, Sir W CI co, K. O'Brien, P. Wilson, J. Davie, Sir H. R. F. Paget, C. Young, A. Dodson, J. Pigott, F. Dunbar, Sir W. Pilkington, J. MM.% Elton, Sir A. Pulle , C. Evans, Sir De Lacy Rawliuson, Sir H. Forster, C. Frcestun, Col. Rich, FF. Knatchbull-Thigeoo2 SWEARING IN OF THE NEW CITY CHAMBEELAISI Yesterday th e L or d M a y or p res id e d over a Court ° Aldermen, held at Guildhall, when it was announced t 0 the court, by the proper officers, that the sureties for the bon, s in the case of the newly elected City Chatty otriain were found to be good and sufficient, and Mri Scott was soon afterwards i n t ro d uce d i nto cour t an d sworn into office in the usual form. There was no other bmi. axe f importance. [ADVERTISEMENT.]—HoIIoway's Ointment and Pills wel l ' d,rfully efficacious for the cure of bad legs, sores, and woutL i de , even if of 20 years' standi ng .—Th e num b er o f cures effecten, by these remedies would appear I nc; e dibl e if th e y wer e ne t vouched for by the patients themselves, who, grateful for the benefits derived from their uso, permit the facts to aPPe a j i before the public. These remedies, if u se d con j oin t y, wm" cure old wounds, ulcers, and scrofulous sores, after all other means have proved unsuccessful. The Pills also are an ad" mirable restorative of debilitated consti utions. They creste appetite, reduce the superfluity of bile, and remove the cause of palpitation of the heart. Sold by all medi , ine vendore throughout the world ; and at Professor Holloway's astah' lishment, 244, Strand, London. BIRTHS. COLLIER—On the 25th inst., at Anapthill-square, the wit* of John Pycroft Collier, Esq., of a son. DE BYLANDT—On the 24th inst., at 33, Brompton-orer cent, the Countess Alfred de Bylandt, of a son. PORTSMOUTH—On the 24th inst., at Hurstbournepar l4 the Countess of Portsmouth, of a daughter. PAST lIR—On the 27th inst., at Hill Farm, Long Ditto oo Mrs. Henry Pasteur, of a daughter. MARRIAGES. BROMLHEAD —LAKE— On the 24th Kist:, at St. Panel ° Church, Jonathan Cr awford Bromehead, of Old Broad . ' street, and of Highgate, Esq., to Ellen, second datigh' ter of the late John Lake, Esq., of Lincoln's-inn. STRIDE DoitEiri- -On the2lst inst. ' atSt. Mathias Chureff Stoke Newington, W. S. Stride, Esq., of West Smith ' field, to Priscilla, only daughter of the l a t e J o h n Dereof E-q., of Kingston, Oxon. DEATHS. BROWN—On the 26th inst., at Cookham Deane, Berke' Ann,, wife of James D. Brown, aged 43. CHANCELLOR —On the 23th inst., at Boston, Lincolnshire:. Charles Chancellor, eldest son of Thomas Chancellor, 0 Kensington, King - ton-on-Thames, and Reading. Be rich aged 41. _ DOIIIN—On the 25th May, at Murree, Capt. Henry A le h V Dorio, 2 rth NJ., oldest and only surviving son of Alex. Dorin, Esq., late Member of the Council of 11 1- 1 I TARKE9 Thomas .odaikes, of 2.4 Foley-street, Portlanii-place. ONSLOW—On the 2;th May, at Madras, Adolphus 13 5 7 1: On,dow, 2d Madras eldest surviving see of Att` , G. W. Onslow, MaLirJs Artillery, aged 26. Gilber t TAELETobr--On the 25th inst., George Hawkes Tarleton, Esq., aged 48. ' , .ONDoN : Printoti xtici Yu ollshoci by t „ tint P 3: "" 74 - 0 of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at Ths Sun OttiooP 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in t h e cons of bl'Adlosex, Vi r ecluesiay, July 28, 1858,