The Sun. — London, England, 1829-04-14 00:00:00

usual course of ordering a Committee of Inquiry. It was composed of most respectable persons, the Members being Dr. Rennie,. (the Physician to the: Hospitals), Dr. Crampton, and. Dr. Jackson,..the State Physician. (Hear, hear). There was some difference among these gentlemen—they all agreed that Mr. Macdonnell was very ill, but they did not all agree as to the extent of the danger from re, maining in prison. Four days afterwards one of the three again visited the prisoner, and made a separate Report. Upon making that Report, a conversation bad ensued between the Physician and Lord Leveson Gower, the substance of which he would read to their Lordships, if they had no objection. Earl 13A THURST—Read the substance. The Noble MARQUIS read as follows— " I have seen Dr. Jackson, and his conversation was stronger than his report, if possible. I think the only question is, whether you could take the responsibility of waiting four days for an answer from the other side of the water. I cannot recommend you to do so." • On the same day, the 27th of August, continued the Noble Marquis, I wrote to Mr. Peel, that I be lieved it was necessary that I should release . Mr. Macdonnell on the following morning. I trans mitted the reports of the medical men. I stated that I would see the Members of the Committee on the following day, and if I found that I could do so in safety, I would wait an answer from him. I added that I wished him to understand that I would take the whole responsib:lity of the act upon myself, but desired to have the advantage of his experience.— The next application that was made, the Marquis then added, was a memorial transmitted by Mr. Mac donnell to Lord Lcveson Gower, written in pencil, mating as follows: " Within the last week Dr. Collis and Dr. O'Bierne have mot Dr. Roney in consultation at Kilmainhatn on my ease; and Dr. Jackson visited me repeatedly. They all concur in the opinion that I am in a most dangerous state of health, in consequence of confinement. To request an answer of some sort—if unfavourable to get copies of the certificates of the physicians, that I may have them laid before the King as the ground vk application to his Blajesty. Since I made my application, two persons have been liberated from this gaol ou account of ill health, on the certificate of Dr. Roney alone, who is the official authority, and also President of the College of Surgeons " He received a letter from Mr. Secretary Peel, dated the 27th of August, in which the Right Hon. Secretary states, that if Mr. M`Donnell's health was in such a bad state, that his life would be in danger from longer confinement, he himself would take upon him to discharge him; 'out, at the same time observing that every care ought to be taken to guard against mistake or imposition. He wrote back to Mr. Peel, that he would not at that time liberate the prisoner, but that he would leave an order with Lord Francis for his liberation, i►► case the state of his Jiealth should imperiously demand it, before he (Lord Anglesea) returned from Carlington, whither he was going for a few days. When he returned from carlington the prisoner was not liberated, and he was informed that his health was very precarious. But not being fully satisfied with the previous consultations of physicians which had already taken place, on the arrival of an eminent physician from London (Dr. Cheyne, probably), he caused another Committee of Physicians to sit, and take the matter again into consideration, and the physi cias who arrived from London was called on to sit in that Committee. The Report of the Committee as to the prisoner's state of health, and as to the effect which further confinement might have on him, was so unfavourable, that he tlid not think himself justified in delaying the liberation any longer, and he let the prisoner out.—(Hear, hear.) _ . . Lord CLANCARTY wished the Noble Marquis had been present when the Noble Duke (Welling ton) stated that Dr. Cheyne would not sign any certificate except that the prisoner was in sound health. The Duke of WELLINGTON, who appeared to labour under a severe cold, stated, as we under stood him, that the Noble Lord had misconceived his statement, which was only that Dr. Cheyne did not sign a certificate that the prisoner was at the point of death. After a few words from the Marquis of ANGLESEA, The motion was then put and negatived without a division. _ . The Marquis of LONDONDERRY moved that a Message be sent to the Commons to request that they would communicate to their Lordships certain documents in the possession of that House on the subject of the Coal Trade. Ordered aecordingly.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(LAST NIGHT.) At half-past Three o'clock the SPEAKER entered the House, and there were just a sufficient number of Members present to enable him to make a House, in order to receive the communication from the Lords that the Catholic Relief Bill and the Qualifi cation of Freeholders' Bill, were agreed to by their Lordships without any amendment. As soon as the Speaker took the Chair a mes senger from the Lords required the attendance of the Commons in the House of Peers, to hear the Royal Assent given by commission to several Bills. Upon their return the Speaker announced the Royal Assent to those Bills, the first of which was that for the Relief of his Majesty's Roman Catholic Subjects. The moment he announced the Royal Assent to this Bill two distinct cheers were given by the Members present, amounting in number to about one hundred. The enthusiasmovas very con siderable in the body of the House. The gallery was crowded with persons interested in the Silk Trade. Mr. EGERTON moved the Order of the Day, for the second reading of the Bill for the Pre vention of Crime in the County of Chester. Mr. LEYCESTER moved that it be read a se cond time on this day six months, as he considered that it was giving an unconstitutional power to the Magistrates, and laying a burden on the county. He afterwards withdrew his amendment, and the Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be com mitted. Sir G. MURRAY presented a petition from Patrick John M‘Farlane, Sergeant-Major of the Dumbarton Militia. Sir H. INNES presented two petitions from the Heirs of Entail and Magistrates of Ross, praying that no alteration may be made in the law of Entail in Scotland. Mr. D. W. HARVEY presented a petition from above 3 ; ,tia Silk Weavers of Braintree, Maccles field, and Colchester, praying that the case of their distress may be taken into consideration. Mr. W. HORTON said he was glad to see the Hon. Member for Newark in his place, as he could now request that he would be present on the 7th of May, when an erder stood for a motion on that (we believe the Emigration) subject, and when it was his intention to expose the scandalous manlier in which he had misrepresented facts— (Loud cries of Order, order)—l say that—(Cries of Order, order, Chair, chair.) The SPEAKER—Order, order. The Hon. Member must be the first to see that he had been disord:rly ; for, in the first place, doubting whether an y Hon. Member would be present ; and, secondly, in alluding to a discussion at which he was not pre sent, or if he had been, he might have answered. Mr. W. HORTON said he had never before been called to order, and he begged to say that he meant no offence to the House. Mr. SADLER, in reply to the allusions of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. Horton), begged to observe that if that Right Hon. Gentleman re ferred to what had fallen from him at any former period, that House was not the place for entering into the controversy connected with them, The Right Hon. Gentleman might, however, rest as sured of his attendance at the debate which he mentioned. The petitions were then laid on the table. Mr. G. 0. MOORE presented a petition from the Silk Throwsters of the city of Dublin, com plaining of the distressed state of the Silk Trade in shut city. He requested the.attentioniof theiteuse to the state of depression to which the Silk Trade in Ireland was reduced by the measure of that House in 1824. By that measure they had to con tend not only with English but with Foreign com petition. The Hon. Member proceeded to call the notice of the House to the Tabinet Trade, the ma nufacture of which in Ireland had arrived to an eminent degree of perfection. He hoped that in the plan to be propounded to Parliament that night by the Right Hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, some encouragement and aid would be extended to the depressed state of the silk manufacture in Ireland. Mr. V. ZGERALD, on the bringing up of the petition, admitted the importance of it and the respectability of the quarter from which it came ; at the same time he would not now anticipate the discussion fixed for that evening by adverting to that petition particularly. In the course of the evening he should have occasion to refer to it ; but he suggested that it would be an inconvenient course to enter into a discussion upon every petition pre sented to the House upon this subject. Mr. H. GRATTAN confirmed the correctness of the statement of his Honourable Colleague as to the distress which prevailed in the Silk Manufacture of Ireland. LUNATICS. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from D. Simmons, of Old Brompton, praying :hat his establishment might be exempted from the operation of the Act intended to be passed for the Regulation and Care of Lunatics. The establishment of Dr. Simmons was one from which great benefit had been experienced. A large sum of money had been ex pended in improvement upon it. The persons con fined there were not, strictly speaking, lunatics.— He suggested that the object of the petitioner would be obtained by adding in the clause for the regula tion of lunatics; after " lunatics," the words " re quiring restraint." He hoped that this gentleman would not be subjected to unnecessary inconvenience by the proposed Bill. . . Lord E. SOMERSET said that he was fur nished with documents from Sir 11. Halfurd and Sir G. Duckett, who had visited the asylum of Dr. Simmons, and from the statements made by them he did not see any reason for exempting this establi:h ment from ale operation of regulations required to be observed in similar institutions. Mr. SUGDEN moved the second reading of a Bill for facilitating the payment of debts out of real estates. The Hon. Member also moved the second reading of two other Bills, the Committee on which was postponed until after Easter, at the suggestion of Mr. A. Baring. COURT OP KING'S BENCH. Sir JAMES SCARLETT presented a petition from the Attorneys and Solicitors practising in the Court of King's Bench, Westminster, complaining of the inconvenient construction of the Court of King's Bench. It was a most ill-constructed Court fur every useful purpose. There was not accom modation in it either for the Barristers, the Solici tors, or the public. When it was considered that within the last five years these petitioners had paid in taxes to the amount of one million, in the way of stamps of certificates, and of various other docu melds fur professional purposes, he thought they • were entitled to whatever accommodation could be afforded to them. Thera was not a Court of Assize throughout the country in which there was not greater accommodation than in the King's Bench, Westrz:i.pster. A vast expellee had been incurred in the construaion of these Courts, but without affording convenience ;n any degree commensurate to the expellee incurred. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman went into a short statement of the pay ments made to the Stamp-office, by solicitors prac tising in the Court of King's Bench, for the purpose of establishing their claim to greater convenience than was afforded to them by the present construc tion of the Court. _ Mr. SUGDEN confirmed (as we understood) the statement of the Hon. Member (Mr. Scarlett), as to the inconvenient construction of the Cowls, but admitted that there was not the sane inconve nence to Counsel and Solicitors in the Court of Chancery as prevailed in the Court of King's Bench. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, that by a small expense the required 4m:rpm:dation to Soli citors could be afforded. Sir J. t.CARLETT said that what the pet;- timers complained of was the narrow space allotted for the Court; 4nd unless that space were increased, he did not see how expence could remedy the incon venience of which the petitioners complained. The same want of accommodation might not be found in the Court of Chaucery that prevailed in the Court ,;s! King's Pont+, as generally in Chancery one case las•ted.the whole day, and sometimes a whole week, whereas in the Court of King's Bench business pro ceeded more rapidly, and a map numerous attend ance of solicitors was rendered requisite. SILK TRADE. and grave importance, which he might fail to urge efficiently; and he knew that what he should state might be replied to by the talent, ability, research, and eloquence of the Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trade, and by the industry and ability of those Gentlemen opposite, who might be con sidered as the founders of thiS new system : yet lie was quite confident, if the Committee for which he should this evening move were granted, that he should produce before it such a mass of evidence, such a body of incontrovertible facts,—facts deposed to by practical men,—as would leave no doubt th:tt the principle of free trade, as applied to the silk trade, had entirely failed,—that it had absolutely done mischief, and that so far from its:operating be neficially, it would, if it were continued, effect the annihilation of the silk manufacture in this country, He would not now ewer into a discussion of the principles of free trade generally, but consider how far those principles appeared to be, from experience, applicable to that particular branch of manufacture, the state of which it was now his duty to present to the attention of the House. The only remark he would make, in passing, was to say, that though he considered the system of free trade beautiful in theory,—(Hear, hear,)—yet he thought that in a country like this, which was in an artificial state groaning uncle a heavy load of taxation, and oppress ed by a large debt, he did not think, in such a state of things, that there could be a free trade of manu factures., while, in every other respect, there was a system of monopoly.—(Hear, hear.)—How could a free trade in manufactures co-exist with a monopoly of corn ?—(Hear.)—He was certain that a partial system of free trade never could be beneficial to the manufactures of this country ; and he would further say, that if there were any one trade inure likely to be particularly injured than another, by the adoption, of this system, the trade the situation of which they were now discussing was that trade.—(Hear, hear.) —lf they considered the great disadvantages under which this trade must labour when placed in com petition with our neighbouring rivals—if they con sidered the different nature of the soil and climate, if they considered the comparative ease with which that rival could procure the best material, and the great difficulty, however great his anxiety might be, which the British manufacttirer encountered in bringing it into this country ; —when he looked be sides at the disproportion in the price of provisions, and, in the same ratio, the disproportion in the price of labour in the two countries, he was not at all sur prised at the failure which had been experienced in that umequal and ruinous race of competition, which for three years had pressed so heavily on the trade. One of the greatest commercial authorities in that House, the Hon. Member for Callington (Mr. A. Baring), though aft advocate for free trade himself, whet.) he presented the merchants' petition, stated what would probably be the effect of this system ul timately with respect to this trade. Perhaps the time to which that Hon. Member looked forward had not yet arrived; but certain it was, that this trade, once so flourishing, was in a state of lingering decay ;—nay, he might assert, that it was now fast verging to utter ruin. Before he proceeded further it would not be improper to allude to the different plans which had been carried into effect since 1824, with respect to this trade. In that year the Right Honourable Member for Liverpool (Mr. Huskis son) introduced the principle of free trade, with re ference to the silk manufacture. He reduced the duty on thrown silk from I4s. 71d. to 7s. 6d.; and the duty on raw silk from 3s. to Id. per lb. In 182.5, the duty on thrown silk was reduced from 7s. 6d. to 5d.; and this last change was effected in what he conceived to be rather an arbitrary mode, oarnely, by a Treasury order, the intention of the Right Hon. Gentleman being, in 1826, to impose an ad valorem duty of 30 per cent. on foreign silks imported into this country. In 1826, however, another Right Hon. Gentleman, who succeeded the Right Hon. Member for Liverpool as President of the Board of Trade, introduced a different plan. Although that Right Hon. Gentleman was attached to the principle of free trade, and wished to apply it to the silk manufacture, yet he did not deem n possible, or perhaps he did not think it wise, to _ . follow up the proposition of his predecessor. He therefore abandoned the idea of an ad valorem duty of 30 per cent., and he substituted a graduated scale of duties, regulated by weight, piece, &c., the basis of which was 30 per cent. And this evening they were prepared to hear the statement of another measure, differing, no doubt, from those two which had gone before it; at least he conceived that it would be, in some respects, dissimilar fron► the former. His object was to show, that during the five last years, the silk t►ade had beer, the vic tim of experiments—that different shades of policy existed—and that even those who were supporting the present system were doubtful of its advantages. Shades of difference were daily arising,—changes and vacillations were every day observable—the sys tem became a series of trial and experiment, and a (4E41 one it was to those who were engaged in it. — (Hear.)---But to show that these Hon. Gentlemen themselves saw the subject in no other light than as a matter of experiment, he would take the liberty to read to the House a short extract, containing the opinion of both the Right Hon. Member for Liver pool and the Right Hon. Men,ber for Inverness. The Right Hon. Member for Liverpool said, " Let this system be fairly and fully tried, for the benefit of the country, and for the sake of those who support it." The Right Hon. Member for Inverness ob served, " It was due to the consumer, it was due to Mr. HUSKISSON presented a petition from certain merchants in London, connected with the Silk Trade in India. The petitioners stated, that a duty of two and a half per cent. was imposed on silk goods imported into India from this country, • whilst there was a duty of 30 per cent. upon silk imported into this country from India. The peti tieners prayed that there might be an equalization of duty on Indian and other foreign Silks. Mr. HUME, in rep'y to an observation from an Hon. Member, not audible in the Gallery, stated that the people of India were greatly dissatisfied with the present state of the law; but he complained, that from the suppression of a free press, and from other causes, the wants and wishes of the people of India were not heard in this country. Mr. C. FERGUSON differed from his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume), that the people of India had not ample means of having the expression of their wants and wishes conveyed to this country, but he concurred in the opinion that they were much dis satisfied with the present state of the law„ and he hoped that by the result of the statement of the Right Hon. Gent. (Mr. Fitzgerald) some intelli gence would he conveyed to the people of India, to satisfy and conciliate them for the disappointment which they had experienced last year in the non-ful filment of the premise made to these. After a few words from Mr. HUSKISSON cad Ms, C. GRANT. the petition was brought up, read, and ordered to be puinted. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN presented two petitions—the one from persons concerned in the l i Silk Trade at Coggleshall, in Essex, complaining of the hardships under which they laboured, and praying that the House would take their ease into consideration ; the other (which had been put into his hands by the Ron. Member for Westminster) from the Journeymen Shoemakers of Westminster, complaining of the distress whit; they suffered in consequence of the importation of French shoes. The petitions were brought up, read, and masted 'to be printed. Mr. F. BUXTON presented a petition, signed by 7000 Journeymen Silk-weavers of tpitalfields. complaining—and he knew with great justice—of their deep distress, which they ascribed to the re gulations of 1826,and praying that their case might be taken into consideration. The petition was brought up, read, and ordered to be printed. Two Notices of Motions were given, the one by Mr. S. WORTLEY, the other by Mr. G. LAMB; but • from the low tone in which the Hon. Gentlemen spoke, we were linable to ascertain their nature. Mr. FYLER presented two petitions; the one from between five and six thousand Ribbon Manu facturers, of Coventry, the other from the Silk Weavers of Manchester and Macclesfield, complain ing of their want of employment, of the lowness r,,r their wages when employed, and of other grievances, I which they attributed to the introduction of the I principles of free trade. The petitions were brought up, read, and ordered to be printed. 1 STATE OF THE SILK MANUFACTURE. the country, that this experiment"—always treating i t as a n experiment—" should be tried." Again, the Right Lion, Gentleman asked—" But has this experiment been tried '' It is foolish to talk of the effect of this experiment, since the time for making it has not arrived." The Right Hon. Gentleman then said—" Try the experiment fairly, bring your goods into the market, and if you then fail, you will come to the House with at least a case of justice as well as feeling."—(Near, hear.) Now, he would call on the Right Hon. Gentleman to redeem his pledge. He felt that he came with a strong ease to the House, and he was sure the House would not fail in its duty. It would not allow this trade to be sacrificed to plausible theories and delusive speculations; it would not suffer those who were embarked in it to be victims, as hitherto had been the case, of fanciful but ruinous experi , ments, lie believed that every gentleman who heard him was aware that distress existed in every branch of this manufacture, but he did not be- lieve that they were acquainted with the appalling the unparalleled extent of that distress, pot only in this country, but he might add, in not and in Ireland. However painful, therefore it might be to animadvert on such a melancholy subject, yet he felt it necessary to point out whet was the exact state of the distress now felt in the silk,maint facturing districts. For that purpose he should lay before the House extracts taken from accounts fur nished by the principal large towns that were con, neetoti with the manufacture; and if the House thought it iruprtant—as they must think it im portant—to obtain infomation on this head, they would allow him to read, as shorty as possible, some of these statements. He should first read e.n eztract which ws sent to him yesterday morning in a . lefter from Coventry. It ran thus :—" At a general meet ing, convened for the purpose of examining into the exact state of the silk manufacture, it wac rn;olved, that in the opinion of this meeting there is an in crease of 50 silk-weevers out of employ since the meeting of the 17th of March ; and the number of winders, .war pep, and spinners out of employ has increased in thesame proportion in the same period. Out of employ "payers,.. 2,54 7 Winders. . • BO Warpers . . 204. Spinners • 641 Total .4,253 " The inhabitants of the undermentioned plac e s, i n the county of 'Warwick (he would not enumerate them), declare that they are in a similar s it uat i on . With respect to wages .they stated that th e rate o f wages paid for labour in the frame trade is so bad, that it does not enable them to procure a sufficiency, Mr. FY LER said, he was aware that in consider ing this question there were many points of deep even of the commonest necessaries of life, and rather than agree to a farther reduction of pric e , it was deemed advisable to put those hands that are em ployed on half work; but that it is not practicable to go on this way, because their situation was every day becoming worse. The fancy and ornamental branches (they observed) were superseded by the immense importation of foreign - goods;—so far, in deed, hai the evil extended, that the masters have gisen up manufacturing those articles, and have en gaged in a regular foreign trade."—(Hear, hear.) — Now he would say, that if any thing could prove more than another the low state to which this trade was reduced, it was to find that those who formerly carried on the business of manufacturers found it better to abandon their old pursuit and to become importers.. The communication went on to say, " that although some persons are continued in em ployment, yet they undergo a reduction of wages every. week. Many of the friendly societies have been ob liged to give up their articles from the inability of the members to keep up their payments ; and those members were obliged to part with every disposable article to procure food Mr them Selves and their famishing children." It was emphatically observed, " that all these statements are strictly true, and, if necessary, can be confirmed on oath." He should now proceed with some more of these heart-rending details. It appeared that there were twenty-six mills standing still in Congleton. In 1824, the average wages were 12s. Bd. per week; in 1828, 4s. 7d. In Paisley, there were two-thirds more mills at work in 1824 than in 1828. The average rate of wages was 15s. in 1824, and only Bs. I id. in 1828. In Macclesfield there were 52 mills employed. in 1824, in 1828 there were 16 standing still. At Taunton, in Somersetshire, of 70 mills that were employed in 1824, 50 were now standing still, and wages were reduced 70 per cent. In Spitalfields, in 1824-5, Gros de Naples was paid for at, the rate of 10d. a yard, it was now 6d.; lustring was Is. a yard, it was now 8t1.; other fabrics that were paid for at the rate of Is. 2d. a yard, were now 9d. Now let gentlemen look to the number of looms employed in 1824-5, and compare them with the number at work at present in Spitalfields. In 1824-5 there were 17,000 looms employed, while at the present day there were only 9,000. The rate of wages averaged at the former period 175., at present it amounted to only 9s. Figured and fancy goods, in 1824.5, produced an average of 225. a week wages; that rate was now reduced to 14s. Here it should be observed, that in 1824-5 one-third of the whole manufacture of Spitalfields consisted of fancy goods ; but now of 9,000 looms employed, only 2,000 are engaged in the manufacture of fancy articles, which was that branch of the trade from whence the greatest advantage was derived. He should only advert to one other document,. and he should then leave gentlemen to draw their conclusion from these facts. The paper from which he was about to read an extract, was put into his hands this evening, by the Hon. Member for Dublin ; and it showed the decay of the silk ma nufacture in that city. In 1824-5 it appeared that there were 1,200 broad silk looms employed, and there were now only 200. In 1824-5 there were 966 riband-engines employed ; that number was now reduced to 144. In 1824-5 the total number of broad-weavers in employ was 2,196; in 1828 the number employed was only 444. In 1828, the wages were 35 per cent, less than in 1i324. In 1824, there were 10 mills at full work; at present there were only two, and these only partially employed. Ia 1824 the heeds employed in throwing were 2,200. In 1828 there were only 138. In 1824, the wages were Bs., in 1828 they were only ss. Now, although he might be expected to apologise to the House for entering on so dry a detail, still he conceived it to be his duty to state these unplea sant facts, for the purpose of proving to the House the ruinous, the disastrous situation in which the manufacturers were placed at this moment; and he could assure gentlemen that the picture was not overcoloured or exaggerated. But some persons would argue that this distress must be temporary, and had grown out of temporary causes. He could not assent to that proposition; but, whatever might be the cause, it was the duty of Parliament to re move the pressure which weighed so heavily on the industrious but starving poor of the coun try, When wages had descended 50 per cent. and when even then English labour could not find employment, it was impossible not to see the utter hopelessness of carrying on such a compe tition as had been entered into with any prospect of success. There were a few other points that well deserved the attention of Parliament. It was quite clear, that under the existing system there was a re dundant labour that could not be called into action ; and even those persons who chanced to be employed did not receive sufficient to enable them to procure the necessaries of life. They were, however, told the other evening, that distress was not confined to this country, but that it was not felt in an equal de gree at Lyons. Now there was a great and mani fest difference between France and this country. France manufactured for export—not one-third of her silk was intended for home consumption; which was not the case here. Now the markets for fo reign orders---the markets of North and South America, &c.—were glutted with silks; and when ever these markets were glutted, not only by the introduction of French goods, but by the increasing intercourse between America and China, the con sequence would be, that a large quantity of those commodities would be poured into this country. France would do her best to transfer those cargoes, which she could not dispose of elsewhere, to Eng gland. That was the point which we ought to guard against. Our manufacturers ought not to be suffered to become the victims of contingencies which grew out of the regulations of foreign countries; and if there were any reason which, more than another, proved that this particular trade ought to be protected, it was the relative position in which we stand towards France. But various causes were assigned for this distress. Over-trading and other causes were referred to as the occasion of the evil. When ho saw 8,000 looms out of employ ment in Spitalfields, he was told that that event was produced by competition elsewhere. If he found distress and misery in the manufactories at Congleton or Coventry, that was attributed to the extensive introduction of machinery. If he ob served the same desolate state of things in other places, he was told that it was the effect of over trading. But it appeared to him, that that which was the obvious cause of all this distress was stu diously kept out of sight,—and that was the enor mous amount of foreign silk goods which was im imported 1:eto this country.—(li*ear, hear.)—The Right lion. Gentleman, the member for Liverpool, had stated, that one proof of the great advantage of the measures which he had sanctioned was the revival of this trade. The Right Hon. Gentleman did, if he mistook pot, declare, that those measures b u d called a new tradp into existence ; that, so great was their efficacy, that the salvation of the trade of this country might be said to have arisen from their operation since 1824. Now he did not consider it fair to take nay one or two single years to support a proposition of that nature. He would therefore tale an r.vereas of years, from 1815 to 1824 , 5 a pe riod during Which the silk trade was steadily and progressively iinproving; 'and' then - he would look to the effect which the subsequent regulations had produced. In 1815, 1816, and 1817, the aggregate a mount of the import of raw and thrown silk was 4,007,000 lb., being equal to an average in each year of 1,336,000 lb. la 1818, 1819, 1840, the aggregate ajnount was 6,592,000 lb., being equal to an average in each year of 2,194,000 lb. In 1821, 1822, 1823, the aggregate atnnini p waq8,072,0Q01b., i ;g ipg equal to an average in each year of 2,691,0001b'. The imports, therefore, of raw and throWn silk had been increasing every year from 1815 till 1824, until, in 1823 and the two preceding years, the amouat was 8,072,0001 b.; and it must therefore be obvious to Hon. Members that the silk trade could not be fairly said to have flourished in consequence of the introduction of these new principles. It had been gradually and perceptibly inc reas i ng ev ery year, - and it might be fairly said, that if the new Measures. had never been introduced, it would have gone on in creasing in the same ratio. The Right Hon. Gen tleman had taken the quantity of raw silk cleared inwards at the Custom-house in the preceding year and iu 1827, in which years there was certainly a very large importation of the raw article, and, rest ing upon that, had said that the silk trade was in a flourishing state in those years. But the quantity cleared inwards at the Custom-house in a single year would giie no idea of the consumption : that could only be obtained from the average of imports in various years. Now, if the Right Hon. Gentle. man would take the average of the importation of raw and thrown silk in 1826 and 1827, he would find that there was a decrease, us compared with the average in 1824 and 1825, of 1,149,1531 b. Th e years 1824 and 1825 were years of prohibition,— the others were not.—(Hear.) But there were peculiar circumstances which caused the large im ports which took place in 1827. It would, per haps, be in the recollection of Hon. Members, that in 1826 there were great alarms excited in conse quence of the intentions of his .Majesty's Ministers, without it being known what the effect of the'mea sures to be introduced by them would be ; and therefore only a small quantity of stock was taken out of hand. But, at the latter end of 1827, con fidence-revived,- the price of silk became low, and a large quantity of stock was taken out of hand for consumption: and if the Right Hon. Gentleman would loOk at the sth of Jan. 1828, he would see that the stock in hand was more than it was in 1827 by 600,0001 b. The difference between the amount of raw silk cleared inwards at the Custom house in 1827 and 1824 was only. 215,8781 b. Now, With regard to the imports of the present year, it was of great consequence to state the increase in the im port of raw and thrown silk, as that had been brought forward as an argument to prove that the silk trade was in a flourishing condition. In 1828, the total increase of the imports of raw and thrown silk over the imports of 1827, was 78,5501 b. In 1828, the imports.amourited to 4,547,8121 b. From this however, must be deducted 380,0001 b.; so that, in fact, the amount was 4,167,8121 b. In 1827, the imports amounted to 4,209,25716.; but by a similar deduction to that in the last account, the amount was reduced to 4,089,2571 b.; so that the increase was, as he had stated, 78,5501 b. in the imports of 1828, over the imports of 1827. This bore no proportion to the large amount of stock on hand; and when they talked of imports they should deduct from them the excess of stock in hand at the end of the year, and not called into consumption, but which, without the importation of the foreign article, would have added life and activity, and vigour to the trade. Now in die imports of the present year there had been a most alarming increase. In 1828, they amounted to 676,973/. 19s. 6d., which was a most rapid increase; for in 1826, they amounted only to 445,0001., and in 1827, to 555,087/. Now, if he took one-third of the quantity as to the amount brought into the country by smuggling, and left two-thirds for legal importation, it would give him 2,000,000 pounds weight, which, at a fair calcula tion, would give him 1,000,000/ of money, the amount of money displaced from the work of this country. Then, following up this remark, he would add, that, by a reference to the difference between the price of labour in this country and in France, there was lost to the industry of this country, in depriving our labourers of the manufacture of the raw article into an article of use, no less a sum than 1,066,2331. He was aware that he had entered into a very dry 'and tedious tale. (Hear, hear.) It was not his wish to do so; but he had thought it his duty to state the exact amount of facts, in order to shew the real state of the trade in this country. There was one branch of the trade which seemed to be totally leaving us he meant the manufacture of fancy and figured arti cles. He found that this was entirely given up to the foreigner, and the fact led him to remark, that in some branches of the trade the number of goods, and not the number of pounds of silk, was the only fair cri terion of the trade being in a flourishing or decaying condition. These articles, in particular, were of a very heavy nature, taking a large quantity of silk; and yet this, the most lucrative part of the trade, was given up to foreigners. It would not be suffi cient for the Right Hon. Gentleman to tell them the amount of the imports; he must also demon strate to the House the value of the system. He (Mr. Fyler) would ask what advantages we had de rived from the system. He did not know what mea sures the Government intended to propose. Report however, stated that the Government meant to do their utmost to prevent smuggling. This must be prevented, not by the preventive service, by a strict attention to the duty imposed; and if that duty were not brought to a level with the premium, the trade of the country would be destroyed. It mat ittenrpeodrtlai t t t i l o e n s o v r he b t y her sm s t i l l g k oi N n v g er , e i i f nt t r i o le du t e ra ed de by of le t ga he l country were to be overborne. He spoke without authority, and on mere report; when he said that it was understood that the Government intended to decrease the duty on foreign thrown silk. One ar gument in favour of this proposition might be, that while raw silk had increased, thrown silk had de creased ; but let them consider the numbers of per sons who had been for some time past employed in throwing, and that, too, at extremely low wages,— Those wages must now be reduced still lower, and the plan proposed would therefore be a certain and positive injury to one branch of the trade.— The cause he pleaded, then, was not connected with that of the throwsters; but lie was sure the persons for whom he spoke did not wish to obtain any advantage at the expence of the throwsters. Let it be considered that if the throwsters were reduced by the duty being lowered from Is. to 55., they would be deprived of one third of their vested property. The large capital, too, invested in buildings and machinery, could not be transferred into any other employment. Not to insist that one part of the trade ought not to be benefitted at the expense of the other, he would say, that the small benefit thus obtained would scarcely *be felt when it was spread over the whole trade, though it would be a serious injury to those from whom it was taken. There was no argument in fa your of this system, but only praises of the prim ciples of free trade, which they were told must tri umph at last. There would be no triumph. They were merely engaged in a struggle to avert the blow which must crush them at last. When distress, like that which now prevailed, was forced upon their attention, they ought not to content themselves with half measures. If the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. V. Fitgerald) meant to follow the footsteps of his predecessor, and to take for his motto vesligia nulla retrorsum, he trembled for the silk trade of this country. He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would not consider himself as mixed up with them, but that he would act independently. The unfortu nate persons whose cause lie (Mr. Fyler) advocated, looked upon the Right Hon. Gentleman as their only patron and protector. He begged to conclude by moving that a committee be appointed. Mr. ROBINSON rose to second the motion, and he then found :-that. NOb_te_LariLholding eat great prospective blessings from. relexinrOO of prohibition. ' Among these promised blessle was a vast export trade to this country #9.113 foreigners opening their ports to us; but,. 4 1 1C ° 1 these hopes being realized, foreigners continued tbetfj system of prohibition. We 'suffered foreigner ..4 compete with us at ' home, and - receiv e d -nrotkig ; 4 l but prohibition from them in return. The GoVern",, ment. was warned in 1826 of _the necessity of apex'' ing this inquiry, but the persons. who:- urged -that.' necessity met with such contradictions; from those who advocated the principles of free trade,,tbat:the. House was not prepared to entertain the motiop-Ar' a Committee. Ile begged the .Honse not to disrai . .A the subject now w i t h out inquity. He hopedtae: Hon. Member for Li ver p oo l (Mr; HtiskiSson) WOO, excuse him if he referred to_a letter whiCh the HO"' Member read in that. House. It was.a letter. from an extensive agent to ship-owners in' the north ;Of ik England. That letter stated that the ship-oWtrers , were not in want of employment ; bla that, on the contrary, there was more employment than eve,r; " .Meeting. the wr it er o f that letter the next day, s continued the Hon. Member, " I asked him SAY, he put such a weapon into the hands of the Itigtrr. Hon. Gent. who was already too formidable; a."l ' he told me that the Right Hon. Gent. had.:,alniqe` i the context, in which he said that, though there' was plenty of employment, it was altogether without profit or return to capital." He was sure the..itight:'!, Hon. Gent. would understand that he did not naeanto-• ' insinuate that this passage was intentionally omitted.: One of the arguments now used against the s;lk7 , . manufacturer was, that there was plenty of employ ment. The lion. Member for Inverness (Mr- Grant) had st a t e d, th at t h ere h a d ta k en p l ace a great ' . '- increase in the importation of row material, and drew therefrom the inference that there was. an crease in the trade. That was not, however, the. fact, because the altered fashion in the manufacture of silk required a greater quantity of the raw ma terial for the same number of yards than was used formerly. Besides, the extension of trade in itself was no evidence of its prosperity, unless it return ed a profit to the country and the comfortable. means of subsistence to the individuals engaged in it. He contended that nothing was more absurd than to apply the principles of free trade tou branch of manufacture the least prepared to meet the evils growing out of that system, arid to establish in the staple article of life, that of corn, something very - like a prohibitory system. He asked the House whether the prediction uttered by Lord Goderich, in 1824, had been fulfilled, that England would shortly supply the whole world with silks ? After every attempt had been made to induce France to the proposition of establishing a system of recipro city, she had refused to do so, and England was met . by a persevering adhesion to the prohibitory system, and by a commercial hostility on the part. Of America. He hoped the House siould agree. to the motion made by the Honourable Member, as it was one purely for inquiry, and would not tie the House down to the adoption,, of any one system or other., Mr. V. FITZGERALD—AIthough, Sir, I c an- not be insensible of the many and peculiar ditli culties which embarrass and which surround this question, nor unconscious of my own inability to treat its various topics, and to enter into the com plicated details which belong to it, with that clear ness with which it would be my wish to bring e very subject under view of the House—though I feel how additionally painful it is, under circumstances 1 of suffering such as the. Hon. Gentleman, has painted, and in the midst of that distress which . affects those districts in which the silk manufacture has been established—though I feel, Sir, how much , more difficult, as well as painful, it is to resist the sympathy of the House, and to oppose the motion for inquiry which the Hon. Gentleman has made- - I am yet not sorry that an opportunity is at length offered to rue, when I may be permitted to vindi cate the principl e an d t h e po li cy on . w hich Par liament h a s ac t e d w i t h respect to t hi s trade — when I may be a ll owe d to s h ow t h at t h e . di s t res s and suffering of th ose engage d i n i t, deeply as we" must feel arid deplore it s ex i stence , i s yet not lea imitable to thos e causes to w hi c h i t has bee n ascribed—that, on th e contrary ,. i t has flowed from: • causes, over which ne i t h er t h e G overnment nor the Parliament has had controul—and when I may be e n - - abled to submit to the House the outline of those measures which it is the duty of the Government to recotnmenl, as the only means of restoring to sound and wholesome state this important branch.of.' the national industry. . Before, Sir, I enter into st d '• extensive a consideration of the subject, I am bout• to meet, in the first instance, the immediate prop& • s st i a ti t o e n t o h f e h r . t N b l e embe f ds, only grounds, gr o o r Coventry, u . nds,upo a m which hnid t° ch I should have opposed his motion for inquiry; hid his • speech been confined to a recommendation of that course alone, 'and had he not made it the vehicle of other arguments arid other statements, whiA it will be impossible for me to leave unnoticed.. In .00' course of what 1 shall have to offer to the House; I shall be obliged to comment on those passageti Of the speech of the Hon. Gentleman, because, in the view which I take of the causes of that distress which exists, I shall be led to combat his reasoning, and to prove, not only that he has ascribed' It* un duly to the causes to which the petitioners throug h theirhe re c ommendsstifferin suffe r ings, t w i t that t ould t h e e v o e i r d y y In the primary t u t rte impu te e h primary step to an aggravation of that distress. And first, Sir,.l can assure the Hon. Member, that if I could persuade myself that the'appointment of a . Committee could .tend to alleviate the sufferings •of - • those who have approached the 'House with their , petitions, I should feel much more reluctance in re sisting the motion which he has made. It is be cause I am convinced that the appointment' of such a Committee must increase the, difficulties in ' which the manufacturer is plaeed, must add to the stagnation of his trade, and encourage an opinion which has been so indUstrionsly. circulated, that ,Par. liament was likely to change its policy, and to recur to a prohibitory system—it is because I believe 01.4 if you leave them to that slow relief which e Peon' , season particularly, when the trade requ i r es. impulse , and the manufacturer employment —you - wo uld ag gravate, to an intolerable degr ee , th e s ufferings - of , every branch of it. I cannot c om pl a i n , - Sir, that the lion. Gentleman, or the p e titi oners , h a ve eon. , cealed the object with which they pr ess f or investi gation t the avowed object is, to induce Parliament to recur to a system of prohibition. To thos e who - • are decided against such a system, no t on gene ral principles alone, but from a c o nv i ct i on t h at i t wou ld be fatal to the manufacture it se lf, I nee d no ar gu-: - mittee could a ff ord, you would aggravate, a t this merits to dissuade them from acceding to a motion, which, professing to inquire, avows the ulterip,F ject which it has in view, and the ' i ntqltipus . Of 'it!! authors. I lament to ssy - that' the petitioners hay been led to think that a'departure from that systeM has caused their distress, and that a return to it - would remove the cause. This has been impressed upon them by too many who are capable .of reason ing better, and who ought to have disabused them. I. Ile begged to remind the House that in 1826 great would ask of the Hon. Gentleman what inquiry be.. distress prevailed in the silk trade, and that the fore . a Committee of the House of Commons would claim of the persons concerned for the appointment establish for him, or for his clients, such a proposi of a Select Committee was rejected, on the ground tion ? He has told us, indeed, how prohibition has that they had not made out a sufficient case. The acted. To the amount of acknowledged foreigil Right Hon. Gents. who werc.! then the President import he could not recur. That amount lital not and Vice-president of the Board of Trade, 'said that been such--:-.=he knoWd by affecting • their measures would remedy the distress which then tlse . consuniption; could' affect the interests of the existed ; and the Hon. Member for Inverness (Mr. inanufaCturer. It is, he tells us, to the illegal C. Grant) added, that if during the operation of importation, to the unequal competition of the there measures the distress was not alleviated, the domestic manufacturer with the smuggler, that the petitioners Would come before the House with an extinction of the English manufacture i 3 owing. irresistible case. After this declarntiqn, he trusted Extikction ! Has the Hon. rientltinhh referred to that Inverness would satiafac- the amount . of 'English production also P Do not the tori ti lyat " or); l‘ien for the for edistress which now prevailed, very petitions and representations made to the House or support the motion for a Committee. He did convince him that there never was a period at which not deny that there had been Qverqading in this as the supply has so far exceeded the demand ? Or well as in nearly every other branch of out trade; does he, or dim Iyho Itrge this inquiry, believei but then he contended that the importation of fo- that if by a system of forced prohibition, they could reign silk added another evil to that of overtrading. exclude foreign competition, if they could, by the _ Th es e principles, falsely called principles of free protection which they seek, raise the price, andthe trade, were first introduced ministerially by a Noble value of the domestic manufacture, securing to the Lord, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, in 1824.; merchant, those. profits which they . say he-has lost,