The Sun. — London, England, 1858-05-08 00:00:00

by the late Cabinet. The best provision, I repeat, has been made to meet the difficulties which might arise in the event of. any accidental, unforeseen, or unfortunate vacancy occurring in the office of Governor-General. I do not fear, Ido not wish it. We could not have done otherwise than we have done. It was impossible for any Government desirous of seeing the administration of India conducted in a spirit of clemency as well as of justice, desirous of conciliating as well as of subduing a people, not to express its opinion in the proper terms with respect to an act confiscating the whole proprie tary rights of the people of Oude. (Loud cheers.) Earl GREY—I must point out to your lordships that both the speech of the noble earl who has jest sat down and that of the noble earl at the head of the Government have been addressed, not to the question raised by my noble friend as to whether it was proper at this time publicly to declare the severe censure pronounced by her Majesty's Ministers upon the whole policy of Lord Gaining in respect to Oude, but, on the con trary, to the totally different question, whether that policy in itself was right or wrong—whether the pro , claenation which had been published was a proper proclamation, and whether the Government have done their duty in expressing their disapproval of it. (Hear, hear.) On the last question, my lords, lam not able to give any opinion whatever. We have not bef ,re ne the information necessary to enable us to decide whether Lord Canning has done right, or whether he deserves to be censured. (Hear, hear.) I can quite understand, however, that her Majesty's Government, being in poesession of far more information than we now have, may possibly have thought fi t to disaippareod even disapprove the proclamation issued by the Governor Genera to write a very severe despatch in co nde m nation of what has been done, But, then , i s it right that that censure should be publicly proclaimed (Cheers.) My lords, I cannot forget that Lord Canning during the time he has held the government of India has shown great moral co urage and fi rmness in mainta i n ing the principles of of clemency at a period when the justice and the policy public mind was highly excited and not disposed to give the consideration which was due to calmer counsels. (Hear, hear.) I cannot forget that Lord Canning braved the virulent calum n y to which he was ex p osed by ad hering to his duty in this respect amid every discourage ment. Therefore, I say, in the first place, you ought not to believe that Lord Canning has now departed from the principles on which he has hitherto acted until you receive the most conclusive evidence on the subject, until you have had an opportunity of examining all his explanations of the grounds on which he has proceeded, and of making up your minds that he has been in error. But, even if you are convinced that he has done wrong, you are bound to believe that it is an error cf judgment only that he has committed. (Cheers from the Minis terial benches.) No man can doubt that it is Lord Canning's desire and anxiety to act in a spirit of justice and humanity ; and if he has done wrong it is his judgment, not Lis moral sense, that has been at fault. (Hear, bear.) That being so, what, I ask, was the duty of her Majesty's Government ? No doubt, if they thought him in error, fully to explain to him the grounds of that opinion, and to direct him to modify, if requisite, the course he was about to adopt, I have not a word to say against the strongest instructions which they might have felt a right to issue on the subject But then when that despatch had only just gone out, was it necessary to publish to the whole world that this was the view taken of his conduct by the Government I (Hear.) The noble earl opposite says, " What were we to do ? It was very indiscreet to come and ask the Government a question on the subject, but when the question had been put to them they could net help answering it." (Laughter.) My lords, that is quite a new light in which to place the duties of a Minister. I can only say that when I had the honour of sitting on that bench as a Secretary of State I made it a rule invariably to refuse to answer the simplest question, even though I knew perfectly well how to answer it, if it were put to me without notice. I said, "No, I never will answer you without notice. Your question may be very simple; but if you are once allowed to establish the practice of coming down here and asking me without notice any question you think fit, then the fact of my declining to answer one when I have answered another will show that the question is embarrassing?' (Hear, and a laugh.) But, my lords, Igo further. Even supposing that her Majesty's Government have had the fullest notice be forehand, is it to be said that they are under a positive obligation to answer a question of this kind, though to do so is injurious to the public service ? (Cheers.) I have always understood that a very different eourse has been pursued. It more than once fell to my lot, when holding the seals of the Colonial-office, to have ques tions put to me as to my intentions respecting mat ters upon which I had been in correspondence with the Governors of particular colonies. But I never then thought of replying that I disapproved in every sense of what had been done. I was accustomed to say the subject is a difficult one, and communica tions are still goicg on with regard to it ; we hare not yet been able to form a decision, and it would not be expedient for the public service to say more at pre sent. (Hear, hear.) Now, am I to be told, my lords, that because an indiscreet question is asked in the House of Commons that is an excuse for a Minister to give an indiscreet answer ! (Loud cries of "Hear, hear.") I cen recognise no such excuse—(hear, hear)—for the more indiscreet the question tke more distinctly is it the duty of a Minister to relieve to answer it. (Hear, hear.) From my experience of both Houses of Parliament I am per suaded that if, in answer to such a question in either House of Parliament, her Majesty's Government bad said Lord Canning has hitherto deserved our full confi dence, and we see no reason for withdrawing that con fidence ; the proclamation which has been adverted to is at present the subject of correspondence between us and Lord Canning, and we shall take care most attentively to consider the whole of the circumstances of the case, and see that justice be done, and the house shall in due time be informed as to what has been done—l am per suaded, I say, that if the Government had adopted that course, there would have been no disposition upon the part of either House of Parliament to press the question upon them. (Hear, hear.) I have never in the whole course of my experience seen that course adopted by a Government without being at once admitted by Parlia ment. (Hear.) Why, that very course had been adopted by the present Government in reference to the Cagliari. The Government produced a great portion of the papers connected with that affair, more, perhaps, than it was quits discreet to produce, but when they were asked for still mere they said we are still in communication with the Government of Naples and Sardinia, and it would not be convenient for the public service at present to prodtice more papers. That answer was readily acquiesced in by the house, and lam informed it was made on the very same night that the indiscreet answer of which I com plain was given to the question relating to this procla mation. I conceive that the Government committed a grave fault in expressing the opinion that they disap proved in every sense of the policy o f L or d C anning (Hear.) The noble earl opposite has f oun d f au l t w i ts , my noble friend near me (Earl Granville). He said, " You complain of the despatch being in the hands of persons not members of the Government, when it Wai yourselves who asked for it ; but the noble earl forgets that it was after the expressed censure of the Government that my noble friend asked for the despatch, and I be lieve that had there been no expression of an opinion hostile to Lord Canning he would never have asked for that despatch at all. (Hear.) After an unqualified censure upon the policy of Lord Canning had been pointedly announced by the Government, all the friends of Lord Canning were very naturally and very properly desirous or seeing the terms in which that censure was couched and what were the grounds upon which it was founded, and they hoped from an examination of the despeech to discover that there was not sufficient ground for any censure at all. I much regret what has oc. curred, not on account of Lord Canning, although I cannot but think that the manner in which Lord Can ning filled his high office in a time of extreme difficulty and under circumstances of a most deeply distressing character—(hear)—the manner in which he performed duties suddenly and unexpectedly cast upon him—(hear) —has entitled him to gr, ater consideration than has been shown him. (Hear, hear.) It is not, however, on account of Lord Canning that I so much regret what has occurred ; but it is for the sake of India and of this em pire. (Hear.) I am convinced that it is not for the interest of India, nor of England either, that the govern ment of India should at this moment be placed in fresh bands, or that Lord Canning, holding that high office, should have his authority weakened and impaired by a public expression on the part of her Majesty's Govern ment of censure of his policy. I confess, my lords!, that in all my experience the course which has been adopted by the Government appears to me to be without a precedent, and it is one of which I cannot help ex pressing extreme disapproval. lam utterly at a loss to conceive what grounds can have induced the Govern ment to take such a course. What object could be gained by it I lam sure that the noble earl possesses too firm a mind to shrink from a temporary obloquy for refining to give up Lord Canning. lam sure, also, that heis not actuated by another motive which might almost seem to have prompted such a course, but were it not for the high character of the noble earl one might almost imagine tbat it was so. Circum4ances lead one to believe that in the public mind, which some time back went too far in favour of unspa-ing and indiscri minate severity, there had been a reaction, and the gene ral feeling would be hostile to a policy of extreme severity, and it might be thought that a little temporary popularity might be acquired f a weak Ad ministration by the production of a despatch containing some high sounding words and phrases with regard to principles of justice and humanity. It might almost be thought that the course which has been adopted by the G ozernment was dictated by some such motive, but I, any lords, reject such a supposition, and can only account ler it on the ground that it must have resulted from ex traiirdieary aed blameable inadvertence. The enntirin was then a2ree,ll to. THE ENGLISH CHURCH IN PARIS. Viscount DUNGANNON , who, from speaking with his back gtouetebtelognaollery, '- was ' n;ost imperfsc,ly heard, said that the worshio fur Entis f h pr r o e v s i i d d in g means of attending Divine 9,000 e ents in Paris, amounting as they did to nearly occupied the one of considerable importance, and had ocC 3 u attention of the late Government, who had, he believed,e arrived at a decision upon the subject which the hosti l e veto vote of the Ho use o f Commons prevented their carryinginto effect, to be informed by the noble earl the "Secretary He wee: le d communication tate I.a. Foreign Affairs whether any been recently made to him on this subject, and whether had her Majesty's Government contemplated the adoption of any course respecting it. The Earl of MALNIESBURY—I need not Ray that this subject has occupied the attention o f the Fo re i gn _ o ffi ce for some years. I re g ret to state t hat, although I bad some hopes of brin g in g it to a successful issue, I should Le entirely dec eivin g this house and the country , nd also min Paris, were . I to induce them a to believe t h at the countrymen House of Commons IS likely to change THE SUN, LONDON,, SATURDAY E y ENING, MAY 8, 1858. its mind with respect to the grant which was required to purchase this church. I believe the only course left to us is that which we have now taken. I have had the honour and pleasure of communicating with the right rev. prelate (the Bishop of London, 9.3 we understood) on this subject, and be hopes that, by the efforts of Lord Cowley in Paris and of English residents there, in con junction with those of the right rev. prelate and others in this country, a sum of money will be raised sufficient to enable me to place the church under the Consular Act. (Hear.) Some time, of course, must elapse before this money, not less, I am informed, than 5,0001. will be required—is raised. lam sorry to say that the mort gagee threatened to foreclose the mortgage within a few days. Her Majesty's Government have taken steps to prevent the foreclosure and to postpone for a time the payment of the mortgage money, in order that we may see what will be the result of the efforts of Lord Cowley and others persons who have interested themselves in the matter. The Bishop of LONDON thought it would be a very great misfortune if this place of worship, which had been so long connected with the church of England should cease to be a church of England place of worship. (Hear, hear.) Their lordships were probably aware that there was a large population of poor Eng lish at Paris—as many as 2,000, and it was cer tainly of great importance that by some means a place of worship should be provided for them. Hitherto there had been no opportunity for these 2,000 persons to worship God according to the church of their fathers. They were unfortunately Jiving in a foreign country, ex posed to foreign influences, and liable to many difficulties and temptations. If the plan to which he understood her Majesty's ambassador at Paris was favourable could be carried into effect, it was proposed that the whole of the church with the exception of a very few seats should be free to poor English. Their lordships were aware that a great number of English visited the continent is sum mer, and that the English population was thereby very much increased during that part of the year. It was not, he thought, too much to say that the efforts of Lord Cowley in Paris would be seconded by those Englishmen who spent a portion of their years abroad, and increased the English population in Paris to 10,000 in the summer months. He believed there was every prospect of rais ing speedily about 2,0001. in Paris itself. There would remain to be raised 3,0001, which we might hope would be raised by voluntary subscriptions in this country ; and then the church would be opened under the Consular Act', free to the poor English residing in Paris. He was 'most thankful to the noble lord for preventing, by his diligence, the threatened foreclosure of the mortgage. Viscount DUNGANNON expressed his satisfaction at the statement which had been made by the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, And the subject dropped. PROrECTION OF FEMALE CHILDREN BILL. The Bishop of OXFORD moved the second reading of this bill, the object of which was to extend the pro tection which the law at present affords to girls between the ages of 10 and 12 to girls between the ages of 10 and 13. The right rev. prelate observed that he asked for the bill because he had brought before him a series of cases, which he had himself examined, which showed the great need of such protective legislation. The age which he wished to include within the provisions of the bill was that at which a great number of young girls quitted workhouses and institutions of that nature, whence they entered ser vice at a very low rate of wages, and there was no doubt that they were exposed at that time to very peculiar temptations. He could, if it were necessary, enter into details which would abundantly establish the necessity of the measure ; but he was sure that it would recom mend itself to their lordships without any such details he should °lntent himself with at once moving the second reading of the bill. The bill was read a second time. The Customs Duties (No. 2) Bill, and the Excise Duties Bill went through committee. The Exchequer-bonds (2,000,0001) Bill was read a second time, and the house adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. —(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following private bills were read a third time : Blackburn Railway, Stokes Bay Railway and Pier, Sufferance Wharves, Purt of London. The Balby and Worksop R :ad Bill was further con. sidered and ordered for a third reading. MID-KENT RAILWAY (CROYDON EXTEN SION) BILL. Earl of MARCH moved that the Railway (Croydon Extension) Bill be withdrawn.—Agreed to. RAILWAY CANAL BILLS (GROUP 11.) Col. W. PATTEN moved that Mr. Foljambe be dis charged from further attendance on group 11 of Railway and Canal Bills.—Agreed to. THE NAVY. Sir C. NAPIER gave notice of certain naval returns. MR. GLOVER, LATE M.P. FOR BEVERLEY. Mr. W. GRIFFITHS gave notice that in the event of the Property Qualification Bill being passed into a law, he should move an humble address to her Majesty, praying her Majesty's merciful consideration of the case of the late M.P. for Beverley. (Hear, hear.) METROPOLITAN CE METE RIES'. Mr. H. BERKELEY asked the Secret;ry of State for the Home Depattment, what regulations or instruc tions as to cemeteries or burial grounds in the metropolis had been or were to be issued, under the powers of the Burial Act passed last session? Mr. HARDY, Under-Secretary for the Home De partment, said that none had been issued. They wer , being prepared under the consideration of the Inspectors of Burial Grounds, and as soon as they were ready they would be carefully considered by her Majesty's Govern ment before they were issued. ROYAL ACADEMY, WOOLWICH. Mr. P. O'BRIEN asked the Secretary for War, whe ther any gentlemen had been admitted to the Royal Academy of Woolwich sinca the Ist day of January lvt who had not undergone the competitive examination rendered necessary by the warrant promulgated by the late Secretary of War ? General PEEL said no gentleman had been admitted . . . into Woolwich Academy "except in strict conformity with the principles laid down in 1855, in reference to competitive examinations. OATHS' BILL. Lord J. RUSSELL propos3d the postponement of the consideration of the Lords' amendment to the Oath.' Bill to Monday next. He understood there was no ob jection to the motion, and also that her Majesty's Go vernment would alto A it to take preceiexce of the other orders of the day. (Hear, hear.) Mr. DISRAELI said he believed it would be con- venient to the house that the Oaths' Bill should be taken first on Monday. (Hear, hear.) The motion was agreed to. PROBATE COURT. lOn the motion for adjournment till Monday, Mr. WARREN called the attention of the house to the operation of the Probate Act of last session, witb • reference to the right of employing barristers-at-law in non-contentious business in the Probate Court, and bar risters and attornies-at-law in the Court of Ad miralty, supposed to have been conferred on the public in consideration of the compensation awarded by that act to proctors and others. He entered into the position of proctors and barristers before the passing of the late act, and referred to the clause intro duced last session into the Probate Court permitting members of the bar to practise in that court, in consi deration of which the house liberally granted compen sation to the proctors for the lose of business likely to ensue. The result, however, was that the business of the court was only thrown open in cases of a contentious character, which was by far the smallest amount of business that came before the court. He urged that a committee should be appointed to inquire into the mat ter. If it were not done he should bring in a bill relative to admitting the bar generally to practise in the Pro. bate Court, and also in the Court of Admiralty. Mr. HADFIELD spoke in favour of throwing open these courts to the public and appealed to the late Attorney-General to state how it was the clause in the bill throwing open the Court of Admiralty, agreed to in that house, was afterwards thrown out. Sir R. BETHELL a•sented to the importance of throwing open these courts. The clause referred to was struck out of the bill because specific legislation was refused for the Court of Admiralty before it could be thrown open. Mr. COLLIER raid he felt certain the house would never have voted compensation to the proctors if the court was not to have been thrown open. Instead of that they found the court was only partially thrown open, and he objected to the construction put upon the de cision of the house by the rules that had been laid down relative to contentious and non-contentious business. Mr. MALINS said he moved the introduction of the compensation Clause, and what he then stated would be the effect of this bill had been realised. The business of the proctors, as a body, had been utterly destroyed, and that showed the justice of compensation. He did not think the amount of compensation to be given would be so great as 300,0001., as had been stated, but would be found not to exceed 80,0001., or 100,0001., as he stated when the clause was under discussion. Sir R. BETHELL—I think that is pretty well. (Laughter : ) .. _ Mr. MALINS—Yee, it is. The hon. and learned gentleman said the claus e re l at i ve to throwing Court of Admiralty was struck ou t of b open the the ill on the considered first w suggestion of a learned judge, who o nidered it w ou ld be inoperative unles4 machinery provided to ensure the proper discharge of the b • warless. The subject then dropped. Mr. J. LOCKE called the attention of the house to the recent appointment, of Justices of the P eace f or the C.ty of Canterbury ; and asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether Mr. John Pout had been appointed one of such Justices, and whether be was the person mentionel in Schedules C and F of the Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the existence of corrupt practices at the elec tion of Members to emve in Parliament for that City in the year 1852, and at previous elections. The hon. and learned gentleman read the headings of the two schedules—one was " a list of persons who have given money to voters to give their votes" for the Conservative candidates, in 1852, and the other was a list of persons who had given money to voters in the election of 1847, to vote for a certain candidate for Canterbury. In both these schedules Mr. John Pout was "ticketed," and it was an extraordinary thing that. the Lord Chancellor should have appointed a per son so ticketed as a j us ti ce o f th e p eac e. Oily conceive e , state of things would be presented in Canter bury, if at a future time an election took place there, and voters were bribed? If the briber were brought befor e M r. John Pent, only conc e ive his situation. to (Laughter Thebriber i n suc h a case m i g ht o bj ect was to the jariadiet of that magistrate , an d w h o blam e for such a thing ? Why, the ' Lord Chancellor, who made such appointments. He (Mr. J. Locke) condemned political appointments, with reference to _the bench. In the list of bribers in 1852 he found the name of Mr. Thomas White Collard, and that gentleman had recently been appointed a ma gistrate. (Hear, hear.) Mr. WALPOLE denied that the Lord Chancellor was actuated by political feelings in making his appointments. The appointment of magistrates for Canterbury were made on the recommendation of the in habitants. The Lord Chancellor at that time did not know that Mr. Pout's name was in the schedule of the commissioners, but as soon as the Lord Chancellor's at tention was directed to Mr. Pont's name by the notice on the paper, he referred to the schedules and then found Mr. Pout's and Mr. CAlard's names there. Immediately on making the discovery, the noble and learned lord sent down to Canterbury to say that be should expect these gentlemen to resign. (Cheers.) No answer bad been returned when he (Mr. Walpole) entered the house ; but he had every reason to believe the resignations would be sent in. If the resignations be not sent in, the Lard Chancellor, he bad no doubt, would take steps to render the administration of justice pure in that borough. The right hon. gentle . man defended the conduct of the Lord Chancellor from making political appointments, and read a list of magis trates for a number of boroughs, in which the majority were Liberals, and his appointments had only had a ten dency to bring back the balance of parties. (Hear.) Mr. J. BRIGHT said the list just read only went to show that the present Lord Chancellor was following in the footsteps of his predecessor—(cheers, and no, no)—and was endeavouring to balance accounts. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He condemned the present mode of appointing magistrates. On every oocaeion when there was a change of Ministry there was a scrambled to put men on the bench to balance, as it was called, political parties, and, in consequence, unfit men often got on the bench. (Hear, hear.) Mr. B. JOHNSTONE defended the nominations by the Lord Chancellor of magistrates for the city of Can terbury. They had been recommended by the mayor and by himself, to whom they were personally known. He bad quite forgotten that the two names mentioned had been named with the commissioners' report. Mr. ROEBUCK adverted to a case where all the names recommended by the Conservative party were adopted by the they Lord Chancellor, and those recom mended by the town council were passed over. Mr. P. O'BRIEN protested against the partial course pursued by the Government. Mr. 0. STANLEY complained of the number of ma gistrates lately created. Mr. HARDY contended that it was high time the unfair preponderance which formerly existed should be put an end to. Mr. WHITESIDE said the old Government had allowed an alderman named Brent to remain on the bench at Canterbury, though he bad been mentioned in the same report as the two persons referred to. More than this, he had been made a deputy-lieutenant for the county. Sir W. SOMERVILLE contended that the case of Mr. Brent was a totally different one. He had been :lade a deputy-lieutenant by the late Lord Cowper in 1852 ' • while the commission on th e b r ib er y in Canter bury did not sit till 1853. THE GREAT BELL AND THE STATUE OF RICHARD C(EUR DE LEON. Mr. HANKEY asked the Chief Commissioner of Works what progress had been mode in the recasting the bell for the clock tower, and when it was probable that the clock would be completed. Also, what was the intention of the Government respecting the erection of the states of Richard Cceur de Lion, by Baron Maro chetti, purchased by public subscription, and presented to the nation in 1856. Lord V. TEMPEST called the attention of the First Commissioner of Works to the erection of a statue to Dr. Jenner in Trafalgar-square, which he (the noble lord) considered was not an eligible site f such a statue. He asked the noble lord if the site was selected by him er the right hon. baronet his predecessor in office. Lord ELCHO said it was desirable that he should know if her Majesty's Government had laid down any fixed principles for the erection of statues in the metro polis. Dr. Jenner's statue was in a line with that of Sir C. Napier, and he wished to know if they were to have a line along Trafalgar-square, and whether it was to be two deep like the Eeglisti formation, or three deep, like that of the French formation ? (Laughter.) Lord J. MANNERS said he had been informed that the great bell was cast, and would, in all probability, be ready for the Clock Tower in a few days. A vote was to be taken this session for the completion of the palace of Westminster, and be had no doubt the ()lock Tower would soon be completed, and the bell fixed in its pro per position. He had every reason for believing that the new bell possessed a remarkably fine tone. (Hear.) With regard to the statue of Richard Cceur de Lion, he had been informed that the committee of fine arts and Sir C. Eastlake were unable to agree on a suitable site in 1856, and nothing further had been done in the matter. He thought with the diversity of opinion that appeared to exist between bon. members in matters of art, that there would be some difficulty in deciding on the suit able spot where to place the statue, agreeable to all par ties. (Hear, hear.) The site for Dr. Jenn er 's statue was granted by the late Government, and when he was in formed of it, and application made fur instruction to be given for its erection, he thought it his duty tocarry out the arrangement that had been entered into. (Hear.) The Government had no general control over the erec tion of statues in the metropolis, bt.t they had over the erection in Trafalgar-square. The erection of Dr. Jen ner's statue was, he believed, a part of the general scheme to place three or four eta' ties in a line along Tra falgar .square. There was to be a statue on the other side corresponding to that of Jenner's, and one of General Havelock was to be placed on the other side, corres ponding to that of Sir C. Napier. (Hear.) Sir W. FRASER said as the late bell was popularly known as " Big Ben," he wished t) know if it was the intention of the noble lord (Lord J. Manners) to continue that name to the new, bell, or give it a new one ? If the latter, he (Sir W. Fraser) suggested it should be called " Little John." The subject than dropped. EXPENSES OF VOTERS. Mr. Sergeant DEASY called the attention of the house to the present state of the law relating to the payment of the travelling expenses of voters at parliamentary elec tions. He took the occasion to express his regret that his remarks in reference to this subject on a former occasion had been misconstrued by Lord Wensleydale. He regret ted exceedingly that such an erroneous impression as ap peared to exist should have been raised by the observation he had used. The matter then dropped. THE CAGLIARI. Mr. KINGLAKE asked the Chancellor of the Exche quer when her Majesty's Government would cause to be presented to the house a copy of the despatch referred to by the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs on Tuesday last, as having been received by her Majesty's Government, stating that the Government of Sardinia cordially accepted the despatch of LorJ Malmesbury and were prepared to act in accordance with the suggestion of that despatch, and the spirit of the protocol of the 14th April; and also for a copy of the above despatch of Lord Malmesbury ? He asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to reconsider his decision of last night to produce those papers. On the 14th January he brought forward a motioa in reference to this subject, which resulted in the discharge of the two Eng lish engineers. In the course of the Easter recess certain documents in reference to the subject were laid upon the table of the house, and amongst them was an extraordi nary despatch of Lord Malmeury, in which he took the singular and unusual course of narrating to the Sardinian Government the particulars of a mistake that had been made at the Chancellery of the Minister of Turin, which had produced so much astonishment, for no one could have believed that a foreign Minister would havo taken the pains to have reviewed a despatch signed by a Minister of this country, accredited to a foreign court, unless there was a strong determination on the part of the Government esty, ins was the bound Governmentpubl public to mini to recede from th e li ne o f po li cy i n di ca t e d b y th e m i s t a k en despatch. (Hea r Lear.) Accordingly there had been a very general the t e wsatssaattrehamei Sardinia intention h i on e of he rand Majesty's i beliefa he the r fate, saythat a t o abandon h t Chancellor of the Exchequer last night had tended strongly in his mind to confirm the impression, and to lead him to believe that he was entitled to deprecate such a policy. (Hear, hear.) One circumstance, he thought, was patent to all—viz., that all the d eman d s ma d e by t ardinia to the Ne spolitan Government were made by her, upon the insti gation of the British Government, through Lord Clarendon, when he held the seals of the Foreign-office. (Hear, heir.) He (Mr. Kinglake) considered this country was, in conse quence, bound in good faith to afford Sardinia genuine and hearty support, an I finding that opinion was participated in by a large number of hon. members, he put his present motion upon the paper. After alluding to the obstacles that had prevented his bringing it forward on an earli e r day, he said the other night te house were led to be lieve that Sardinia had attained her object, and, conse quently, that this motion was unnecessary ; but on the next day they were assailed with rumours that the state ment referred to the right hon. gentleman the Under Secre tary for Foreign Affairs was omewht overdrawn, to the extent that Sardinia was satisfied with the proposals made to her, and last night that was followed up by the refusal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to present certain papers, on the ground that negotiations were pending, and that their production would be dangerous to the carrying ou of the negotia' ions then going on, notwithstanding that two days before the house was led to believe that all mat ters of difficulty had been arranged. (Hear.) In consequence of that statement the debate impending was intercepted, and as other papers in connection with the transaction had been laid upon the table of the house, he considered it was the duty of her Majesty's Government to complete thorn, by consenting to the production of copies of the despatches he asked for. Ho was at least entitled to know which of the two answers to which he had referred were correct. If the negotiations had ended in the satisfactory manner stated on a former occasion by the hon. gentleman the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, then he should be happy to withdraw his motion ; but if other wise, as he was led to behove by the refusal of the Chan- c llor of the Exchequer, he considered himself bound to press his motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER congratu latei the hon. gentleman and the house that he had at last male his si eech on Sardinia. (Laughter.) And when the hon. gentleman asked whose version was to be accepted-- whether his hon. friend the Under. .Secretary or himself had given a correct version of the position of of tire respect in; the Sardinian question—he 132.gged to say that he did not observe any inconsistency between the two statemen's, and was prepared to maintain that they were exactly in accordance with each other. (Hear.) Tho question before the house was a simple but a very serious one. His hon. friend the Under Secretary was perfectly justified in the sa`ement made by him the other night. What was that statement ? That Sardinia had accepted the proposition made by his noble friend at the head of the Foreign De partment, in the despatch to Count Cavour, viz., that this v3 x e d question should be referred to arbitr.tion under the wise aml beneficent protocol of th e conference at Paris. That was the statement made by his hon. friend, who thought it would be received with satisfaCtion. But the house should t h w a haling n() g agreed tob e supposed with Sar -4 n is as to thecourse although Sardinia there was andfrr t t u h n a a t t a e l i l y t a h the di completecult iue understanding ( Le r r s e t a s n o lddvienp::between rtehfliseectonfenrtreyheashitoomthenetceohurtsheetoimbpaepritiernsueeede.f L th e e t the house remaining for consideration. The question of indemnity and the question of mediation were both involved in the negotiations which were about to commence, and no two subjects of diplomacy were mere delicate or difficult. If the house had no cenfidence• in the management of this matter by the Ministers, let it say so distinctly, and the Government would then understand the position in which they were placed. (Hear.) But he asserted that the papers alluded to could not be given without serious detriment to the public service; and he, for one, would not incur the re sponsibility arising from their production. (Hear.) He would ask the house whether what had already taken place with respect to the misunderstanding between Sardinia and Naples, and the relations of this country with the affair, had been such as to disentitle the Government to the con fidence of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) On their accession to office they found the matter in a complicated and difficult position. He believed they had treated those affairs with prudence, and not without success. Whatever they had attempted to accomplish they had succeeded in doing. They were prepared to the utmost of their ability, and with every necessary devotion of time and thought to the business, to bring it to a complete and satisfactory conclusion. But their labours would be seriously interfered with if the House of Commons should refuse to extend to them that confidence to which they were entitled, and he must again decline to produce the papers which had been asked far by the hon. gentleman. (Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL said, that if in the opinion of the right hon. gentleman these papers could not be produced without detriment to the public service, it would be impos sible for his hen. and learned friend to press his motion. (Hear.) He did not think the house had any reason to be dissatisfied with the course which Government had hitherto taken on the subject. (Hear, hear.) In dealing with this affair two great objects ought to be kept in view ; one of them was not to desert Sardinia, but to endeavour to ob tain for her that redress to which she was in equity and in justice entitled; the other, scarcely of less consequence, was to settle the matter without bringing about hostilities which might extend themselves all over Italy. (Hear.) It appea • red to him that the course which the Government had pursued was a judicious one, and he trusted their efforts would be successful. (Hear.) There was another point to which he wished to direct the attentionof the Government. The engineers had been liberated from the hardships and cruelties to which they had been subjected; but while the contemplated mediation and arbitration were going on what was to become of the crew of the Cagliari, who were sub jected to the same kind of treatment which the engineers had formerly received ? (He ar .) H e did not think it con sistent withjustice to allow these men to be detained in prison during the negotiations, which might extend over a very long period. He had heard that an intention existed to liberate the crew, and should be glad if the Government could give any satisfactory information on the subject. (Hear, hear.) Before sitting down he wished to ask the right hon. gentleman the Home Secretary when the com mission with regard to the question would be appointed ? Mr. WALPOLE replied that it would be appointed very speedily. Mr. S. FITZGERALD said he was afraid he could not give the noble lord any satisfactory information on the sub ject to which ho had referred. The efforts of this country to assist Sardinia were not limited to the mere question of the ship, but extended also to the crew. Beyond that assurance he wa,s unable to give the noble lord any information. The hon. member for Bridport (Mr. Binglake) seemed entirely to have misunderstood the object with which he addressed a few worts to the house on Tues lay night, It was not his intention to make any announcement of the complete contents of the despatch, or to create the impression that he was doing so. The hon. member had a notice on the paper with reference to the Cagliari. That question re quired to bo treated with the greatest delicacy, and was one of the gravest that could arise, for it affected not only this country but the general peace of Europe. Ho was, therefore, anxious to make a statement which he believed would be so far satisfactory as to induce the hon. gentle man not to press his motion on the attention of the house ; and accordingly stated that the proposition of his noble friend (Lord Malmesbury) had satisfied the Sardinian Government. The hon. gentleman had alluded to rumours which had reached him on the following morning which tended to show thestatement to belincorrect. From whence the hon. gentleman obtained that information it was diffi cult to say. Such rumours certainly did not come from an En g lis h source, and he regretted that statements should be made by persons who were not in a situation as British subjects in the house or elsewhere to establish their allega tions. (Hear.) With respect to the conclusion which the hon. gentleman had drawn from the despatch, he could only the Government, and that neith er now nor a t an y p as t say that n o thi ng was f urt h er from t h e i ntent i ons of time, nor, he hoped, at any future time, would they take any step whatever to justify the impression that they would willingly abandon an ally in the hour of danger. Mr. GLADSTONE rejoiced that the conversation which had taken place had cleared up the misunderstanding which had previously existed, for he had certainly laboured under the same impression as the hon. and learned gentle manKinglake) with respect to the rernerks of the hon. Under Secretary. He was glad to hear that the Go vernment had taken into their consideration the case of the unfortunate craw of the Cagliari, and that their co-opera tion extended to the men as well as to the ship. In relation to that part of the negotiation, he trusted they would not fail to bear in mind the importance of the element of time, because by delay and protraction any communica tions relating to the crew were a voluntary ruling of the question against the efforts and views of Sardinia and England. (Hear, hear.) Ho quite agreed with the nobl e lord th e mem b er for the city of London in his remarks with reference to the course which the government had pur• sued. But he thought the despatch of Lord Malmesbury did not do full justice to the views of her Majesty's Go vernment. On reading the despatch of Lord Malmesbury explaining the error of Mr. Erskine, which had led to con siderable inaccuracy in the form of instruction, he was led to infer that Lord Malmesbury did not intend to actin the spirit of the letter of Sir J. Hudson. The error was a grie vousand unhappy one, but he trusted that the merits and exemplary conduct of a faithful public servant would not ( b io e forgotten. cumenth (Ht's'.) ad Te m (Mr. Gladstone) of an led conclusion, o that the obligation of England to Sardinia did not depend upon an erroneously expressed note, but on the letter of Lord Clarendon, dated the29tli of Dec., anl the letter of Sir J. Hudson, dated the sth of Jan. The obligation arose out of the note of Lord Clarendon, and not out of any error on the part of Mr. Erskine, or any oversight ou the part of Sir J. Hudson. It was only justice to the government at Turin that this should be brought before the world, and it was material also as the groundwork of the proceedings of the government, and therefore, in making this statement, it must not in any way be looked upon as taking exception to their proceedings. Mr. LIEADLAU (who was indistinctly heard in conse quence of the noise created by a rush of members from the house) was understood to say that he agreed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that when the present go vernment came into office they found this question in a difficult position. (Hear, hear.) He congratulated them on tho success they had heretofore obtained in behalf of our two countrymen. But he could not understand why the government suould not have gone further. All we knew was that her Majesty's government had offered what they called their good offices to the Sardinian govern ment, and that the question was to be referred to a foreign power. The documents before them showed that these negotiations had been con ducted in the most unsatisfactory manner possible. Mr. CRAWFORD observed that they had Lord Malmes bury's despatch, entering into the details of the error com mitted by Mr. Erskine at Turin, and they had the digni fied and proper remonstrance of the Sardinian Minister, but they were not informed whether any reply had been made to the Sardinian Minister. He thought the house ought to know whether her Majesty's Government dis sented from the observations of the Sardinian Minister or not. Then they had all read the debate in the Sardinian Chamber on the Deforesta Bill, in which England was charged with deserting Sardinia, on which the house ought to have some explanations from her Majesty's Government. Ha hoped Cid her Majesty's Government would cordially cooperate with the Sardinian Government in this matter. VACCINATION IN IRELAND. Mr. MONSELL said he found that by the report of the Irish Poor Law Commissioners, while there were 84,000 children vaccinated in Ireland in the year 1156, there were only 47,0:)0 vaccinated in 18d7. Great danger to human life mightarise from the present state of the law on this subject, and he would therefore ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he proposed to introduce a bill to carry out the recommendation of the commissioners on this subject ? Lord HAAS replied that the attention of the Govern ment had been called to this important subject. He had had some c ommunication with the commissioners, and he hoped to be able in the course of the session to introduce a bill on the subject. The motion that the house on its rising do adjourn until Monday was then put and agreed to. STAMP DUTY ON DRAFTS BILL. The house then went into committee on this bill. On clause 1, Mr. J. H. GURNEY said the stamp would take effect from t•he passing of the bill He thought that some cer tain date should be fixed. A. fortnight would be a reason neble time for the bankers to give notice to their customers bad to have stamped cheques prepared. He moved an amendment to the effect that the hill should come into ope ration a fortnight after it had received the royal assent The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he found on inquiry that the stamps would be ready by the 21th inst., and he proposed that that date should be in sorted. M:. GURNEY said that would meet his views, and withdrew his amendment, net that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was agreed to. Mr. moFFA.T moved to insert the words limiting the ()per .tion of the act to sums exceeding two pounds. , Mr. CHEATHAII a n d M r. BRISCOE supported the amend ment. Mr. G. A. HAMILTON opposed it, and said the object of the bill was to remove all exemptions. l The house was cleared for a division, but none took place, and the amendment was negatived. I The c l ause was then agreed to. The CIIIIRMAN was th en procee di ng t o pat clause 2, when, Mr. BRADY, wh o h a d given notice of an amendme nt to clausa I, sa i d he did not hear the clause put, an d h e did not thi•dt th ere were ten meseb.3rs in the house who d i d. Mr. J. EWA RT asked the Chancellor of the Exchequ er I whether he had taken into consideration the suggestion that a Penny postage stamp might house.' ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the proposition was a very plausible one, but be found on in quiry it would craate so much confusion that it was im possible to agree to it. Mr. KIRK said a gendral opinion prevailed out of doors that the tai would no t b e so productive as the Chancellor of the Exchequer estima.ted as a great many persons would avail themselves of this stamp to save the receipt stamp. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, no doubt the bill w ou ld cause some d i m i nu ti on i n the revenue from receipt sta, aips, but that ha 1 been taken into cal culation, Mr. BRADY asked if ho might be allowed to move an addition to c'ause 1? The Oil AIRMAN -- Certainly not; that clause has boon passed. Mr. GROGAN observed that the tax would bear hardly on depositors iu savings banks, He thought there should be an exemption in their favour. Mr. G. A. lIAIIILTGN said, by the General Savings Mr. B di': Act, an exemption was created in respect to deposits in savings banks; aud by the Friendly Societies Act no stamp duty was ',viable on The operations of friendly societies. Mr. WILSON said it was quite clear that, after this bill was passed, there would be no more drawing of cheques to bearer, but they would all be drawn to order, and the party inwhocsefx wasavour afraid th thatywere einj must e endorse them. Another banks wasreectof the not wouldebxilplress edin i the be that all drafts would arise nrifsue whether turet)edr t a hey really wnayab: l e ,e o r n e demand, exempi. ~ and not at sight. Mr. oase surely be better to make th e po i nt clear by the ption in favour of savings bill, It se wouldrdoubtstionof a fw might words. Mr. MALINS thought that stamped cheque3 would not lead to any' material deenase in the number of stamped re ceipts, and f or an obvious reason. Few persons who paid away money would choose to rely upon such an -unsatis factory proof as the cheque ; and when, therefore, they put a stamp upon a draft they would, generally speaking, require the person in whose favour it was drawn to con tribute another penny to the revenue. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman (Mr. Cox) need not be under doubt as to the exemption of the savings banks. Colonel SYKES said the debate had led him to repeat the suggestion he had already made, namely, that a perm) , stamp should be put upon all tradesmen's bills above 103. That plan would obviate the many difficulties that would arise, and it would, moreover, yield a far greater sum than the present proposa]. After some ftirther discussion the clause was agreed to. Mr. GURNEY brought up the following additional clause :—" Provided always, that it shall be lawful for any banker, or person acting as a banker, to whom a draft or order is presented for payment, if such draft or order requires to be stamped with a penny stamp, and has not been so stamped, to affix an adhesive stamp of one penny to such draft or order, and having affixed and duly cancelled such stamp, then to pay such draft or order ; and that it shall in like manner be lawful for any-person to whom any such unstamped draft or order may be tendered to affix thereto an adhesive penny stamp, and, after having duly cancelled the same, to receive such draft or order in payment, and to negotiate and circulate the same." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the clause was so opposed to the principle upon which the whole law relating to stamps was founded—namely, that every document which ought to be stamped should have the stamp at once placed upon it --and it would likewise open so wide a door to invasion, that he felt it his duty to resist the proposal. (Hear, hear.) The clause was then negatived without a division. In answer to Ur. KINNAIRD, Mr. HAMILTON said that adhesive stamps might be used, though of course not postage stamps. From inquiries he had made at the Inland Revenue-office, he had no doubt that there would be an ample supply of impressed stamps ready before the 24th. (Hear, hear.) The preamble was then agreed to and the house re sumed. THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA. The house went again into committee on resolution 2, of which the following words hal only been carried, viz., " That for this purpose it is expedient to provide that her Majesty"—the remainder of the resolution being as fol lows—" by one of her principal Secretaries of State, shall have and pe r f orm a ll th e powers and duties relating to the government and revenues of India which are or may be now exercised and performed by the East India Company, or by the Court of Directors or Court of Proprietors of the said company, either alone or with the approbation of the Commissioners for the Affairs of India," Mr. RICH moved as an amendment to leave out "one of her principal Secretaries of State, and insert " a pre sident of council for the government of India. The hon. gentleman after expressing his satisfaction at the course the Gevernment had taken in abandoning their bill, and proceeding by resolution, said he did not consider it of any importance whether the new Indian Minister was called the President of a Board of Indian Comthissioners or the President of an Indian Council ; but he thought there was a wide distinction between such an officer and a Secretary of State. There were hon. gentlemen who argued that if there was a Secretary of State there ought to be no coun cil at all, or at all events a council so much in subordina tion to the secretary that it would either be a mere non entity or a political screen. (Hear.) For his own part, he thought the multiplication of secretaryship of state was a dangerous precedent to follow • and the examples they already h a d b e f ore t h em were not ' such as to invite imitation. Mr. M. MILNES attached to the motion more import ance than the hon. gentleman himself seemed to do. He desired that his support of the amendment should imply the strongest possible expression of his opinion, that though the East India Company in its integrity was destroyed, the independent government by which its power and pros perity had been so long sustained should not be lost sight of in making their new arrangements. (Cheers.) As the company was to be destroyed, all they who believed it to have been a good government could do was to assert in every way the principle of having real power vested in the council, without offering any factious opposition to the resolutions of the bill. Believing that a president of the council might conduct the affairs of India with the same authority as a secretary of state, and be relieved by his council, he should vote in favour of the amendment, hop ing that very soon the house would have More it full in formation as to the powers and duties of the council. Lord STANLEY said that it would no doubt be a wise precaution, on the part of the committee, to refuse to assent to assent to any resolution without knowing abso lutely what it was to which the resolution might pledge them. It had been said by one who had looked a good deal into the subject that howeverlargea programme might be laid before Parliament, the greater part of the debate would turn upon one point, the constitution and powers of the council. (Hear, hear.) That prediction had been so far verified ; and they had been really discussing the ques tion of the constitution of the council upon a resolution which dealt only with the title which the Parliamentary Minister for India was to bear. He might remind the com mittee that the responsibility of the Minister was the sub ject of a separate resolution. The constitution and powers of the council were the subject of the fourth resolution; and though they did not bear very closely upon one another he thought it would be wise to endeavour to separate those questions, and to deal with them when the proper time came. (Hear, hear.) The committee would pledge itself to nothing as to the power to be vested in the Minister for India by merely passing this resolution as it stood. There was nothing in the name of Secretary of State which ne cessarily defined with peculiar accuracy the duties of that Minister. The Secretary of State for War bore the title ; yet his relations with the Horse Guards were somewhat peculiar. He did not hold that up as a body for initiation. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He merely pointed to it to show that the title of Secretary of State did not define, with strict and minute accuracy, the peculiar functions to be performed by the persons holding that title. The mover of the amendment had objected to the multiplication of offices ; but in this case the objection did not apply. He had also referred to the government of the colonies by Secretaries of State, and said that the colonies had been governed very badly. (Hear.) Ho (Lord Stanley) was not there to defend the Colonial Government of England in times past ; no doubt it had been marked by many and great faults ; but most of those faults had originated in an error which at the present time we were not very likely to fall into—the error of attempting to govern too much in England, and to leave too little power and responsibility to the local authorities. But this was, in point of fact, not an objection to the title which the Indian Minister was to bear, but to the nature of the office he was to fill. It was an objection to the whole principle of both bills—to the whole course of policy which that house, by so large a majority, had sanctioned and approved—and not to this particular resolution. It was said that if they created a Secretary of State, they would make himself so far ab solute that the council would have nothing to do bat give him advice when he asked for it. That was entirely a question for the fourth resolution, which they should dis cuss more appropriately when they came to it. (Hear.) He did not attach so much importance to the title of the Minister as the hon. gentleman who had supported the amendment, but he should ask the house to pass the reso lution in its present form. (Hear, hear.) Mr. V. SMITH agreed that it would be well to reserve the discussion on'the council until they came to the fourth resolution ; and perhaps the proposal that there should be a President of the Couocil raised the question whether there should be a council at all. Bat the proposal to ap point a Secretary of State for India did carry with it th e impression that he would have the sole power. In discuss ing. this point they were embarking on a constitutional question. A Secretary of State must take the commands of her Majesty ; and if he was afterw ar d s t o consu l t a council there might be some inconvenience in that. (Hear.) Then there was an objection to multiplying Secretaries of State, who went out of office with the Government; and it was most desirable that the Indian Minister should be more permanently retained tha n any ot h er office. He thought it would be bast to adopt the resolution in the form first proposed, containing th e wor d s " b y a respon sible Minister of the Crown." (Hear.) That would pro bably meet all the difficulties that hat been raised. Sir J. PAKINGTON said, there would be no objection to this suggestion. There were difficulties connected with either bill. Tho functions of the Indian Minister would be more those of a Secretary of State than a President of a Council. It bad been suggestel that there would be a difficulty in the Minister taking the pleasure of the Crown and afterwards co nsultin g his council ; but there was really no pra ctical difficulty in the m a tt er. The Govern ment would accept the suggestion, and substitute the d " responsible Minister of the Crown." words Sir G. C. LEWIS thought it would be more convenient not now to determine the powers of the council, but merely discuss the title which the minister should bear. By a secretary of state he understood one to whom the superi n t en dence of a great department of th e pu bli c busi ness b een assigned; all the rest was left under the im mediate power of the Crown, to be decided by instructions t) the Secretary of State. There was no instance where a Secretary of State had anything like a council. Tire Secre tery for War and the Horse Guards had been referred to; but the commander-in-chief was entirely subject to the directions of the War Mieistne The house had a difficulty in deciding this question, because they did not know what would be the powers of the council ; there would be a con stitutional anomaly in requiring that a secretary of state shed 1 obtain the sanction of a majority of his counci'. He doubted whether the bill would pass the house without giving the council some control over the affairs of India, (Hear.) The sixth resolution required the appointments to be made with the concurrence of the council ; that must mean the majority of the council if it meant anything, There would be one case, at all events, in which the Minis ter must obtain the sanction of his council. It might be in the power of the house to altar the constitutional cha racter of the office of Secretary of State • but it was a mat ter for serious consideration whether they should do so. He hoped the Government, having consented to the a-lop tion of a neutral term in this resolution, would give the matter their attention before the question of the council came before the house. (Hear.) Mr. E. ELLICE said it appeared to him that we were legislating in the dark with regard to India, and that very few men indeed understood the question. He should, however, throw no obstacles in the way of the very ano malous proceedings in wh'ea they had embarked, in which three great parties were suaporting three diametrically opposite principles. (Hear, hear.) Was there no differ ence then, between a council nominated by the crown and an elective council ? (Hear.) He was sure that the noble lord at the hal of the Government would sustain his view, and not ccieent to be the lacqney of any opinions but his own. There was, then, no difference between his two noble friends on the subject of nomination. (Heir, hear. ) His plan would be to make the new machinery differ as little as possible from the old; taking possession in the name of the crown, but reeking as little change as they could do with. If they could not frame an independegt council, let them t a k e t h e one they had ; but, for God's sake, let them not take a false step, which might shake their Indian empire to its foundation. (Loud cheers.) Lord J. RUSSELL said that the committee bad no d )übt listened with much attention and instruction to the speech of the right hon. gentleman. He was not going to attempt to answer that speech, but one thing must have struck every hon. member who had heard it, and that was, that one-half of the speech had been uttered too late and the "other half too soon ; that a groat part would have been excellent on the motion of the hon. member for Hunting don, and tho rest would have suited admirably with the amendment of the noble lord the member for Durham. But to ask the house sudd :ply. during a discussion on the second res)lution, to reverse all that it had done, and on very threshold of its task to throw up its hands in despair, would be a mean dastardly line of conduct, which he was sure the committee would never consent to. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. member had gene through the proposal of the noble lord, the member for Tiverton, and also the reso lution which he (Lord J. Rug - sell) had laid on the table, but it would be premature then - to go into the whole s a u c b h he could - ject. Th e great advantage of "resolutions was, that each might be discussed s e parately, - and therefore not consent to go with his right-hon:friend into a re-argument of a question which had already been ! ho hoped, finally de- cided by the house. The first resolution transferring the powers of the East India Company to the crown had been passed, and with its settlement was disposed of many of the arguments of his right hon. friend's speech. His right hon. friend said that it would be impossible for a secretary of state with any council to carry on the government of India. If that argument were to be listened to, it would apply to the fifteen or twenty crown colonies all with dif ferent constitutions, all of which had to be looked after by a secretary of state. Some of these colonies had Dutch, some had Spanish, and some had French laws, while some more had the ancient colonial constitutions. To all these matters a secretary of state had to attend, and if he were to draw a picture of these difficulties it would be said that it was impossible for a secretary of state to manage them. He believed that the administration of India would be a still more simple duty, and that a secre tary of state would have no difficulty in getting through it. His right hon. friend had spoken severely of our old colonial administration, but he (Lord J. Russell) would remind the house that in former times the West Indians had slavery, and that it would have been impossible to give a constitution to a country in which the persons who were to govern were masters, and the persons to be go verned slaves. (Hear, hear.) • Neither could they have given a constitution to Australia, when its whole popula tion consisted of housebreakers and pickpockets. They could hardly think of having a House of Lords consisting of housebreakers, or of Commons with pickpockets for its members. (A laugh.) That could not be thought of for a moment, and therefore the Colonial-office had to wait until time and experience had put the colonists in a position to govern themselves. (Hear, bear.) A great deal of what had been done had had to wait for a fitting time, and be sides the ureseet colonial system was only a revival of the old colonial system of the seventeenth century. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the particular resolution which was the real question before the house, what they had to decide was whether a Minister of the Crown should govern India with or without a council, as the house might de cide. He was not very anxious about the distinction be tween president and secretary, but was inclined in that matter to favour the proposal of the Government. But there was one question of the deepest importance, and that was the character and constitution of the council which was to assist in governing India. Now what he wanted to know was, did his right hon. friend, when speaking of an independent ceuncil, moan a council that was to have the sole power of governing India or not ? (Hear, hear.) The bill of the present Government and the bill of his noble friend the member for Tiverton said, let them be a council to advise —and the bill of his noble friend gave the power to the president to act alone—independent of the ceuncil where the secret committee would have acted. But the secret committee bad the power to deal with matters of the greatest importance connected with the government of India. Was the proposed minister to have the power, for instance, to take a step which might result in a war, entail ing an expense upon the country of four or five millions? He asked, was the power to be placed in the minister of the Crown, or the council ? If in the minister of the crown, then they would have the responsibility of the minister of the crown to that house and to the country, and he might be called to account if he should be wanting in prudence, vigour, or. capacity. But if they had a council, be it ap pointed for six years, eight years, or, as he proposed, during good behaviour, and left to the council the decision of those great points of policy on which the welfare and safety of India was involved, then he contended they would still be keeping up the double government, and the sham of re sponsibility, as it was called, would remain. The minister of the crown would nominally govern, but this council, who could not be removed except for some act amounting almost to a crime, would practically be the government, and a government without responsibility. Thus if there was misconduct all the evils of it would be suffered, while the remedy which the house had in the case of a responsi ble minister would be lost. In agreeing to the present resolution he conceived that he was agreeing to a resolu tion that was entirely in concurrence with the opinions of both the late and the present government that whatever might be the details hereafter to be determined upon, that there should be a minister of state who was to be respon sible for the government of India, and who was to be supreme. If they transferred the responsibility of the government to the council or to the majority of the coun cil, not only would they destroy the present form of govern ment for India, but they made the new government less efficient than that which now existed; for though nomin ally the government was in the hands of the Court of Directors, every step taken by Parliament since 1784 was to transfer it to the Board of Control with whom the cen tral governing power now remains. Sir H. VERNEY, who spoke amid loud and impatient calls for a division, remarked that the more the question was ventilated and discussed, the more must the opinion gain ground that it would be impossible to give the power to the minister, and at the same time preserve the inde pendent character of the Council. Mr. DISRAELI observed that the resolution merely asked the house to confirm the principle that the govern ment of India having been transferred from the East India Company to the Crown, all the functions of the aclministra• tion of Indian affairs should be concentrated in a minister .of state. As to whether ho should be called a secretary of state or a president (though he thought the constitutional argument was in favour of the former title), it was not so important a question as that it should be made a subject of controversy at the present stage of the proceedings. The object of the resolution was rather to express the general scope of the opinion the house entertained upon the parti cular point, whether the government should be placed in the hands of a minister of state— the name by which that minister was to be designated, being merely a question of detail, might be settled afterwards. He would suggest to , omit the first words of the resolution, and substitute the words, " by one of the responsible ministers of the Ci own. " If this were adopted, it might be as well perhaps to omit the third resolution for the present also. Mr. FORTESCUE said the change would have an effect on which they might congratulate themselves that it would reduce the number of the resolutions they had to encounter by one. He thought, however, the question as to whether the minister was to be a secretary of state or a president was not of the slight importance that it had been consi dered by some who had spoken to-night. Lord PALMERSTON said his hon. friend seemed to think that there was something inconsistent in his voting for the motion after he had introduced a bill which would have established a council. But there was no reason why they should not vote for having a responsible Minister of the Crown by this resolution, and afterwards vote for any council thet pleased. If the Chancellor of the Exche quer had not withdrawn the third resolution for the reasons he had stated, he should have opposed it for a rea son inherent in itself. He proposed that the Minister should govern in the same manner as the Secretaries of State. Now, if there was to be a council, the Minister would not govern in the same manner. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that if the noble lord had had occasion to bring forward that ob jection, he should have shown, certainly to his own satis faction, and he hoped to that of the house, that it was per fectly invalid. (Laughter.) Mr. T. BARING trusted that his hon. friend the mem ber fur Richmond would not press his amendment to a division. At the same time, in passing the resolution the committee must be on its guard against conceding too much. It was evident that from the passing of that resolution the whole local government of India must be altered, and it behoved them therefore to take care that too much power was not given to the new President of the Council. Mr. RICH then withdrew his amendment, and the second resolution was agreed to. Mr. WALPOLE then moved the third resolution, which was as follows : —" That in order to assist the Minister of the Crown in the discharge of his duties, it is expedient that a council shall be appointed of not less than 14 or more than 18 members." Sir E. COLEBROOKE moved that the chairman report progress. It was impossible that a resolution of such im portance could be adequately debated at that hour of the night. (Loud cries of Go on.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER coincided in the view taken by the hon. member, that on the whole they were not likely to make much progress by entering upon the discussion at that hour. Mr. E. ELLICE said the fact was the third clause con stituted the whole question in dispute; and therefore to commence discussing it at that hour was absurd. Sir E. PERRY thought it rather suspicious that these motions for adjournment should every night proceed from gentlemen who were opposed to all legislation for India (Hear.) He thought the right hon. gentleman opposite ought to resist the motion for reporting progress. Mr. ROEBUCK was certainly not- opposed to legisla tion during the present session. At the same time if they desired to have a consecutive and well-directed discussion on the clause he thought they ought to adjourn the debate to another day—(hear)—and the more especially as before any of the numerous amendments on the paper, regarding the composition of the council came on to be discussed, he should like to raise the preliminary one, whether there ought to be a council at all. Lord PALMERSTON quite agreed with the hon. and learned gentleman, and thought that they would most facilitate pi ogress by adjourning the discussion to the earliest possible hour on Monday. Lord J. RUSSELL joined in the proposal for reporting progress, but thought they ought first to settle the order in which they should proceed. It seemed to him to be the most convenient course to discuss the several amendments on the act--the composition and numbers of the council seriatim, and, after disposing of them, to enter upon the discussion of the hon. member for Sheffield's amendment namely, whether there should be a council at all. Mr. ROEBUCK would consent to the suggestion of the noble lord, although he thought the more logical course would be to discuss his amendment first. (Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER acknow ledged that he felt disappointed at their not having made more progress that evening. As to resuming the discus sion ea , ly on Monday he was afraid that other subjects would interfere and prevent that. He would suggest, then, as their only alternative, that some of the intervening days between Monday and Friday should be given up for the general consideration of the resolutions. Mr. ROEBUCK said he would be prepared to move his amendment on Tuesday that the discussion be renewed. Lord R. CEO' L, who had a motion on the paper for Tues day, must protest against this attack on the rights of pri vate members. Why should private members be called upon to give up their opportunities for the sake of discussing the principles of a measure which every one knew was not intended to become law this year. (Hear, hear.) The motion for reporting progress was then agreed to. CHELSEA. HOSPITAL BI (PURCHASE OF LANDS) L. This bill was read a third time and passed. FRANCHISE PRISONS BILL. This bill also was read a th'rdt ilia° at d passed. SUPPLY OF GAS FOR THE METROPOLIS. On the motion of Mr. BYNG a select committee was ordered to be appointed for inquiry into and reporting as to the existing arrangements for the supply of gas to the metropolis.. The other orders were disposed of, and the house ad journed at a quarter past 12 o'clock. ENGLAND AND LIBERTY. —M. Louis Blanc having written his new bcok, " Biltorical Revelations," in English rather than Franca, thus justifi,s li•mstlf in doing so :—" It . 8 no small honour to her (England) that her language should be, at this moment, the yenta cul it of liberty, the only language in which freemen of every nation can interchange ideas a-)ci print their thoughts . with any chance o f fi n di ng a public all ,wed to read them. RABEY OUTDONE. —Among t a herd of remount,' that were brought t.) Kirkee, near Poonah, lately, was one most obstreperous little nag. A tall six feet front rank man of the 31 Dregoon Guards—a splendid specimen of the " old plunger " Vittoria and Albuera action boys —stepped up to the fractious little brute, aed without much ado tucked the struggling creature under his bratvny arm, and, amidst the cheers and laughter of the whole corps, carried him round the parade ground, and • set the astonished animal down -as tame as ever Mr. Rarey could have made him. IVAPAL AND MILITARY INTELLIGE.ZAICE. Marlborough, 131, screw, Capt. Lord Frederick Kerr, flag of Vice-Admiral Arthur Fanshawe, will haul alongside the Portsmouth Dockyard jetty on Monday next, to receive a newly-invented screw propeller, by Messrs. Penn and Son, with which she will be fitted, and proceed - to the measured mile at Stokes Bay, to test her speed, at the next spring tides, - Duke of Wellington, 131, screw, Captain Henry Eyres, C. 8., will haul out of the steam-basin dock into Portsmouth Harbour, on Friday nett, the 16th inst. The screw steamship Orion, 91, went from Hamo aze into the Channel on Thursday, to try her en gines. They gave satisfaction. The screw steamship Brunswick, 80, Captain Erasmus Ornmaney, left Plymouth Sound for Hamoaze on Wednesday. Her Majesty's ship Hastings, 60 guns, which had for some time been stationed at LiVerpool as a Coastguard ship, sailed on Thursday for a month's cruise along the coast, and will visit the Isle of Man, Holyhead, and other ports within her dis trict, returning to hir moorings in the Mersey. She is accompanied by the Dapper, one of the gun boats lately appointed to that port. It is said to be in contemplation to remove the Hastings alto gether from Liverpool, and replace her with one of the new 90 or 100 gun screw line•of•battle ships. Fox, old 42, frigate, converted to a screw, for, transport service, has been brought down the har bour at Portsmouth, and is to have her sea stores and fittings taken out of her. She was hastily con verted during the Russian war for the purpose of conveying boilers and machinery to the Baltic. The paddlewheel steam sloop Gorgon, 6, Com mander Dayman, from Deptford, accompanied by the Clinker, Porpoise, and Quail gunboats, arrived in Plymouth Sound on Tuesday evening, and on Wednesday afternoon went up Hamoaze. Her Majesty's ships Banshee and Vivid, de spatched to Ostend in the service of the young Queen of Portugal and suite, have returned to Woolwich and taken up their moorings off the dockyard. Two tug steamers, with artillerymen from Ports mouth, arrived at Plymouth on Thursday. The following additiors to Vie establishment of Devonport and Keyham Yards are to take place forthwith by hiring the following numbers : Blockmakers, 2 ; painters, 10 ; millwrights, 6 ; joiners, 10 : smiths, 30 . ; plumbers, 6 ; locksmith, 1 ; pitch heater, 1 ; labourers, 130. A return relative to the continuous service men and boys serving in her Majesty's navy was printed yesterday, at the instance of Sir Charles Napier, from 'which it appears that the number of conti nuous service men serving in the fleet on the Ist of January, 1857, was 17,432 ; the number discharged from the service during the year 1857, including 604 discharged by survey, was 2,973; the number serving in the fleet on the Ist. of January, 1858, was 15,694; and the number entered into service since the Ist of January, 1858, up to the 30th of April, 1858 (as per engagements received to that date), was 530 ; the number of boys servit g in the fleet on the let of January, 1857, was 7,520 ; the number of boys discharged f om the service during the year 1857 was 865 ; the number of boys serving in the fleet on the let of Jauuary, 1858, was 5,854. The 12th company of Royal Engineers, under the command of Captain Montague Stopford Whitmore, have received orders to be held in rea diness to embark for the Cape of Good Hope, where they will relieve the Sappers and Miners now at that station. The 12th company numbers 120 men. The recent presentation of the model gun and its equipment to the Emperor of the French is about to be succeeded by the presentation to the French nation of a most interesting relic, which has been deposited in the Royal repository at Wool wich since the year 1 819 —namely, the identical hearse which served to convey the body of the Imperial exile of St. Helena to the tomb. It was yesterday removed by order of Government to the workshops of the Royal carriage department of the arsenal, in order to its complete renovation. It consists of the lower portion of the carriage used by Napoleon in his solitary rambles over the ru gged roads of the island, and which at his death was converted into his funeral bier. Some portions of the black paint have disappeared in certain places, exhibiting the original yellow. Although stria caution has been almost invariably observed on the visit of strangers to the repository, the velvet bang. ins of this interesting object have been ruthlessly lopped and portions of the woodwork hacked away. Major-General Peel, Secretary at War, has ordered the carriage to be restored to its former condition, and in that state to be presented to, the French nation. The encampment of troops at Freshwater East for the purpose of practice with the Enfield rifle has been ordered. The ball and shell practice of the Naval Coast Volunteers has commenced on board the Violet gunboat, tender to the Eagle, Coast guard ship at Pembroke Dockyard. For this pur pose the Violet proceedseome distance out to sea off .be mouth of the harbour. The signal stations down Milford Haven are to be continued until the annual inspection by the Lords of the Admiralty. Mr. Enos Vaughan, second-class inspector has been promoted to the first-class inspectorship, vice Mr.. George Allen, deceased. The contract for the paintings and alterations at Pembroke has been 0 obtained by Mr. George Thomas, the amount being about 7,0001. yearly. THE MILITIA. The Dumfrieshire Militia, on return from Alder• shot, were disembodied at Dumfries on Saturday last. The Aberdeensire Militia are on their way from Dublin to Aberdeen, where th e y w ill b e dis embodied forthwith. The Tyrone Militia, stationed at Hamilton and Paisley, are under orders to re turn to Ireland for disembodiment, are to be suc• ceeded at these two garrisons by the new battalion, of the 21st Fusiliers. Country Markets. LWERPOOL. MAY 7. This day's market was moderately attended, and a small business in wheat, at easier prices. A good strong article in flour, either in barrels or sacks, had more favour . shown • to it than for some weeks past. Indian corn advasced about 6d to 9d per qr., with a good demand, and the best yellow and white were not purchasable under 341 9d to 358 3d per 4801bs. Oats and barley firm in price. Oatmeal 6d per load dearer, but with a curbed sale. No other change. WAKEFIELD--MAT 7. There was a fair supply of wheat, and prices were re- • , her lower than on last Friday, with a moderate demand. • Beans were is dearer, but barley was without change. AVERAGES FOR THE WEEK ENDING MAY 3, 1858. Wheat 3187 quarters, at 43s 9id Barley 204 „ 36s 74d Oats 25 ~ 30s Od Beans 9 . 42s al Peas , 5 „ • 48s 0,1 EXET—M 7. • COBN.— E R Wheat, 5s 6d to 5s 9d A. ; T barley, 4s to 4s ; grinding do., Os Od to Os Od. Oats, 2s 6d to 2s 9d. Beans, Os Od to 0 Od. Peas, 00s Od to 00s Od. FLoun.—Fine, 31s Od to 32s Od; seconds, 29s Od to 30i Od per sack. u • CATTLE. —There w as a f a i r supply of bulloc k s. Bi t beef, from 9s Od to lOs Od per score • inferior, 7s to 8s p er , score ; fat calves, 5d t o 5 4 d per lb ; earrenners, Os Od to u;', Od, per scor e ; cows and calves, 121: to 181. us ; butcher ; -:calves, Od t o 7d per lb ., rearing calves —s to each; Od sheep, ewes and lambs, 21, 5s to 2/. 15s per couple; ewes , to 6A ; wethers, 7d ; lambs, 71d to 0 per lb. Pigs , large size, —s to —s; second size, —s to --0 . • slips, --- 1 to —s; su c k ers , — s t o — s . R oug h f a t, 43d per lb. , Pork carcases from 7s Od to 8s 6,1 per score. . BRISTOL SUGAR-MAT 7. The market remains active, and were it not that the samples in the brokers run short a good amount of businels would be done. Between 300 and 400 bhde. of Barbadoes have been taken at is per cwt. advance on the rates ob• tainable last week. In the refined market there is a fair amount of trade doing, and several large parcels have been taken at a proportionately improved price. There is no stock of rum in first hands, and business quiet. BIRTH. S. HopsoN—On the 3d inst., at 9, Marlborough-road, St. John's wood, Mrs. R. Hodson of a son. SPERLING—On the 6th lust., at 0, Hyde-park-terrace, the wife of Henry G. W. Sperling, Esq., of a daughter. WOOD—On the 6th inst., at Colnoy House, Herbs, the w ife of the Rev. R. Mountford Wood, M.A., of a son. MARRIAGES CRAFTER —ALLEN—On the 4th inst., at . Stone Church, Kent, George Crafter, Esq., of 10, Doughty-street, L on d on , to Mary Anne, second daughter of William Allen, Esq., the Court, Lodge, Stone. LAMOTTE—DIGBY —On the 6th inst., at St. George's, Hanover .. square, the Rev. G. Crospigny Lamotte, rector of Denton, Kent, to Caroline Jennetta, only surviving child of Rear' Admiral Digby, K.C.B. DEAT H S. BANNISTER—On the fith inst., at 13, John-street, Bedford' row, Charles G. Bannister, Esq., aged 62. COTTLE —On the 6th inst., at Kirkstall-lodge, Clapham-parks Robert Cottle, Esq., aged 83. CUNDY —On the sth inst., at 14, Pall-mall, John Cnndy, age d 37. COOPER—On the 19th March, in the Dilkoosha, from a bullet wound in the hr, ast, received on the 11th at the siege ° L Lucknow, Lorick E. Cooper, aged 20, Ensign 2d Battalion Rifle Brigade, eld es t son of Lovick Cooper, vicar of EulP ingliam, county of Rutland. KING—On the 6th inst., at Upper Grosvenor-street, Goor giana, wife of Bolton King, Esq., M.P. LAVIGNE—On the sth inst., at 30, Belgrave-square, Caroline Jane, the wife of Sir Richard Lavigne, Bart. LANGMORE— On the sth inst., at 40, Finsbury-square, after * few days' illness, Win. Langmore, M.D., aged 74. LONDON: Printed and Published by JIIIIRDO YOU I4t ! of No. 112, Strand, P r i n t er, a t T he Sun Office. r"" 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Xavoy, in the coo" of Middlesex, Saturlay, Nay 1858. la