The Sun. — London, England, 1858-02-19 00:00:00

facts. First, as to the revenue of India. In 1809 the revenue of Bengal was 7,101,0004, and the total revenue of the three presidencies was 11,238,4201. In 1850 the revenue of Bengal had risen to 13,740,0001, and the whole revenue to nineteen millions and a half. Surely that showed a benefit becoming to the country. (Hear, hear.) In ten years the exports from India had increased 182 per cent., and the imports 227 per cent. (Hear, hear.) Did such a result justify the taunt of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the imports to India had not benefited England ? Bat this improvement in imports had given a great impetus to labour. (Hear, hear.) Then there was the article of cotton. It had been charged against the company that they had not developed the growth of cotton; but during twenty years the cotton imported to England had increased from 38 millions of pounds to 170 millions, or 348 per cent., whilst that imported to all other parts of the world had increased from 93 millions of pounds to 237 millions, or 141 per cent. (Hear, hear.) The honour able member for Shrewsbury had thought fit to say that the population of India was highly taxed ; but what were the figures ? In the regulation districts in the north-wes tern provinces the pressure of taxation was 3s. 3id. in the pound per annum ; in the non-regulation districts it was 2s. 2id. (Hear, hear.) The relative per centage of payment on account of wages in India, as compared with England, was largely in favour of the former ; and the land-tax was in the proportion of is. 6d. per acre iii Bombay. (Hear.) With regard to the relative comfort of the population, he would undertake to prove that there was more squalor and misery to be found in one street in Loadon than in a whole district in India. The tenure of land, also, was much more favourable to industrial development than it was in this country. He would now touch upon the question of the double government. The noble lord the First Minister of the Crown, in proposing the bill, had made merry with this.branch of the subject, and had compared the course of a despatch in its circulation between the various depart ments of the Government to the " adventures of a guinea. That description was quite an ideal one ; but he (Colonel Sykei) proposed to give the house a real one. The hon. and gallant member here gave an explanation of the actual stages through which a despatch passed be fore it attained maturity, and stated it as his belief that the great error committed in the management of such a document was its previous transmission to the Board of Control, a course of action which involved a prejudging of the subject, and the tying-up of the hands of the Board of Directors. The functions of the recent committee were simply ministerial, their signatures only being required to declarations of war, and the home Government being en tirely responsible for the declaration of war itself. The bill proposed that there should be one responsible head of the new government for India ; but a consideration of the ac tual amount of work done by the Board of Directors would show that the physical powers of a single individual would be quite unequal to the task. During the last year the India House received 2,516 letters, and the number of col - Jealous or data on whioh those letters were founded reached 16,950. There were despatched to India in the lame year 1,833 despatches. To show the diligence of the board he might state that out of 1,651 despatches, 1,151 were approved of on the day on which they were brought before the court, 1,481 were approved of without any alte ration at all. It was diligence such as this whioh the noble lord who " complimented, smiled, and slayed," charac terised as dilatory. Bat if delay occurred at all it should be remembered that the interests of millions ware con cerned, and precipitation might involve their destruction. Unlike the billof Air. Fox, which contained a long preface of the alleged misdemeanours committed by the committee, that of the noble lord began by praise. But look at the dif ferekt spirit of the two measures. Mr. Fox's bill provided fer seven directors, to be named by the Govern men t with out limitation. Their names were inserted in the bill but they were to be assisted by nine assistant directors, to be appointed on the popular elective principle from the pro prietary body. (Hear, hear.) There was no attempt in the former bill to abolish the East India Company, and it was a mild measure compared with the present one. A majority of votes was to be decisiie without delegation to the Board of Control, whereas the nominated members of the new board had no further power than to record their objections, and the President of the Council would in fact be a despot. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Fox's bill, again, was liberal in respect to allowing the members of the board to sit in Parliament. The present meaanre denied any such privilege to the members of the new council. He again asked whether a single man was physically capable of performing one hundredth part of the business which it was now sought to impose on him ? He had himself occupied the post of chair man of the Board of Directore,and such was the strain onhim that for two years he had to take his breakfast every morn ing at the East India House, where he remained until six, and rarely got home during that period until two o'clock in the tau:a:a:. (Mir, Pni a 11 , 17 i?.) With -1 1 . 11 ]. implied in this attendance, he was unable t.) attead to a hundredth part of the correspondence. But he could rely upon assistance which the new despot could not have at command. Under the present system reliance could be placed on the various committees—(hear)—but the new despot must rely upon a staff of clerks to assist him. But was the house prepared to delegate the government of India tea body of clerks ? (Loud cries of hear.) The Board of Directors had also been charged with inefficiency in the matter of sending out troops to India. What again were the facts ? The Government had called upon them a short time ago to send out 30,003 troops to India. In two months the Court of Directors had despatched sixty-seven vessels, steamers, and clippers of the first order, containing the whole of that number of troops, who had arrived in India without incurring a single accident. (Hear.) Was this a sig n of dilatoriness? But again, between O c t o b er an d Novembr, on the requisition of the Government, the Board of Directors had despatched to India, for conveyance by Sir James Oatram to Persia, 768 packages of clothing and boots. He had so recently expressed his opinion upon the cause of the mutiny, that he should not detain the house at this raoment by dwelling upon it. That mutiny was a military revolt, arising out of a panic on the pars of the Repays of the Bengal army, who feared they were going to be degraded by the Government from their caste. Some thing might be said as to the course which might have been taken after the breaking oat of the mutiny at Meerut. If there had been a Gillespie at Meerut, as there had been at Vellore, events might have taken a different turn. Much had been said with regard to the lukewarmness of the Go vernment in expressing sympathy with the Christian movement taking place in India. To his own personal knowledge this charge was not true of India for the last 20 years. Why, when a bishop arrived out in India, his ad vent was proclaimed at the cannon's mouth, and the aepcys, on hearing the becim, naturally asked what was the matter? The answer to this was, " Why, the Lord Bishop has ar rived." This was no denial of Christianity at all events. To show that they had not failed in giving proofs of their anxiety to promote Christianity in India, he had had re turns produced, showing the expenses of the bishop's visi tation, and showing that the expanses of the Church Esta blishment had risen during the last few years from 3,4201. to 6,4071., while the Catholics had received instead of 550/. 2,5701. From these facts, and from the increase of chapels, it was clear that the Company had done all they could. They had also given grants to missionary schools. To show what the real state of religion in India was, he would reai an extract from a work published by the Rev, Joseph Mul lens, of Calcutta, showing that native churches had sprung up in all directions, together withyernacular native schools, and schools of every possible description. From other pub lications he read extracts showing that the murderous practices which prevailed at the commencement of the pre sent century had now been interdicted ; that Thuggism had been abolished, that the connection of the c3mpany with idolatry in its worat forms had ceased, that the pro ceedings in courts of justice had been thrown open, that hospitals, colleges, and schools had been established ; that the electric telegraph was in operation, and that railways had been commenced. This extract was from the journal of the Indian Christian Association, and showed that rah _ eons people were not of opinion that the company had ne• glected their Christian duties in India. He contended that missionary enterprise was very valuable in India, on account of the establishment of schools which it encouraged bat it was of still greater advantage on account of the ex ample which Christian missionaries held out to the natives in their purity of their lives. There were many cases in which Christian converts had been placed on an equality with Europeans, another proof that the company had not neglected their Christianity. Another proof to the same effect was, that converts had been granted a right to share in all family property with the Hiadoo and Mahomedaa from which he was necessarily excluded by losing his caste. What would they say of a great historical family in this country, the Talbots and Shrewsburya for instance, if the estates were left to them on tho sole coalition of their remaining Roman Catholics, and yet if the youngest son became a Protestant, the house should pass a law that he should take a share. That was xactly the feel ing of the people of India as to what had been dene by the company with regard to Christianity—whether rightly or wrongly he would not say. He conaidered that in dealing with India great caution, prudence, and circum spection were needed, an d that they should always have before their minds the inflammable materials with which they had to contend. Now what effect would this bill have on patronage ? The bill made the minister the des pot in India. All the great offices of State would be in his hands. Many of the military and civil offices which had been hitherto in the hands of the governors-general and the governors of the respective presidencies had been checked, bat whenever there was a minister without any check, would there not be some influence or appointment, for reasons of which nobody would know. Military patro nage was to be given to the council, but the appointment of these persons was to be in the hands of the Minister, so that military patronage would be really at his disposal. Who was to determine the relative claims of the appli cants? Unless they tossed up for it, or determined it by ballot, they could not do it at all. The number of cadetship; t a ve n, during the last 17 years was 5,477. Of these there - "een given t o sons o f m ilit ar y an d me di ca l o ffi cers , , *Plaille in the East India civil Officers, 1,865 • to sons of officers in her Majesty's classes of 7l -7 ; to sons of clergym e n, 580. To the middle sod t —a n d h e di , he number of cadetships given was 2,315 one heal I,6e u u not hesitate for a moment to say that not The curse of given away for party purposes. (Cheers.) offices in Inctia, u and lir i ad been the appointments to high would be when the appt ornate impossible to say what these single minister, without an y raeata were in the hands of a cheek. The military appoint ments of the Government re of the worst possible de scription. When Sir J o hn d a o r cle went to India he knew nothing of the habits or wish es and he soon the p eop l e, created a revolt. Another at the East India House to ba commando r-in-chief attended not rise from his seat without aw a n a n} 11, and could ther, on leaving the room, was BO blinsT assis t ance. An°. against the edge of a sorean, and would have ielr ie r i a „ .ll jured had it not been for the exertions of an amiable° ---,- tor. Next came a most amiable, loveable man, but wht ire ; entirely ignorant of the country and people, and who C0,. - sequently ought never to have been put at the head of Con sequently of 120,000 men, whom we could scarcely touch an with safety upon some arti l but p en ar points, whom they might knock about •in any way as far as the public service was concerned. His failures were fault • knew nothing. Some pro vis ion n o of his, because h e officers sent out should be free fro m s houldbe made that the should have some knowledge of physical la infirmity , r m ty an d the people. It would be impossible to controln customsli wi t h .ot. out a native army, and a native army could never be a atabled unless the prejudice of the natives were respected. There had been a great deal of hanging and blowin a from guns. Much irritation had been caused, and away state of things must consequently subside. In a couple of years they might properly attempt a change, and the first thing s hould be to do away with the Board of Control. A Minister of the Crown might be placed over a sufficient council, and to that council should be given an assurance of independence of act ion. (Cheers.) Above all, Liberal the elec tive s hould take care to preserve prin ciple.gentlemen hear. ) If their professions to their con (Sear, h they would bear that fact in worth a ma stituents were mind, and then the p atrona g e would be free from party h . views, he should spirit'. ( Hea r, is hear.) Such being conclude in the words of a re solution passed at the East which vas conducted India House after four days' deba te, _ J with an ability, eloquence, prudence, and sound ment which would have done honour to any debate in that transfer of the governing house—" Th a t the propose d Li is opposed Powers of the East India Company to the Crow THE' SCM: p I =LONfON, FRIDAY EVENI NG,I FTBRU'ARY _l9, 1858 then? In the year 1813 the question was debated between Lord Wellesley and Lord Granville. Lord Wel lesley said that the monopoly ought to be maintained and Lord Grenville that the monopoly should be destroyed. But upon ono point they agreed that the authority of the company was not maintainable unless the monopoly of the trade was maintained with it. " Therefore," said Lord Wellesley, 1 wish to preser ve th e company, I s h a ll monopoly," On the other h an d , L or d Gren ville As I wish to destroy the monopoly, I will do maintainaid, t h : " r a away with the company." Both these able men saw the close connection which existed between the power that exer cised privileges, and the exclusive exercise of those privileges. In the year 1853. another blow was struck at the authority of the company. They were divided alogether from trade ; the trade through China was abolished, and their forts and factories were taken at a fair valuation, and paid for to the company, who were from that time deprived of their func tions. Another important change recurred in 1853, when a certain number of directors should be nominated by the Crown. In 1853 another, and a still more important change took place. Whereas, in the years 1793, 1813, and 1833, successively the company's charter had been renewed for a period of twenty years; the Government of Lord Aberdeen resolved to leave the whole question open for the resolution of Parliament by declaring that at any time after a short in terval the Crown might give notice to the company teat its authority should cease, and that its territory might be taken under the active administration of the Crown. The hon. member for Huntingdon therefore is notauthorised in saying or supposing that there was any kind of deceit, or any stratagem concealed under the proposition of the Govern ment of Lord Aberdeen The general opinion was that it was not wise to disturb at that time the authority of the company—that in a few years the Government might be bet ter conducted in the hands of the company—that the Govern ment of the company should not be permanently maintained, and that they wished to reserve to Parliament the fall power to deal with the question. Then, sir, I coma to that which is the great question of all ; are iere any reasons at present why it should be thought desirable that this au thority should be taken out of the hands of the company and brought into the hands of the Crown. I speak upon this subject with the deepest sense of its importance ; with a feel ing of the great and inestimable value of our Indian empire, with the dread of disturbing its security, and with the wish to provide everything that can be done for its maintenance. Still I cannot but see that there was in the constitution of the East India Company it , elf, as regards the government of In dia, sources of danger which were seen by Lord Metcalf and Sir John Malcolm, and even I should add a'so by Lord Wil liam B ntinck, and by others. I mean with regard to the sepoy army—the army of Bengal. Now, many hon. gentle men have discussed what were the causes of the mutiny, and the hon. and gallant director (Colonel Sykes) who spoke to night, and that it arose from a fear of our interference with their religious feelings. It may be so. I am not prepared to dispute it ' • but what I ask is, what was the cause of the existence of this great Bengal army itself ? If you look through history, there is notoing at all resembling it. The great Roman Empire ruled Spain with a single legion—ruled Africa with a single legion—ruled Egypt with a single legion, and auxiliaries were attached to these legions. The real armed body was the great Roman nation. They never dreamt of a native army on which to rely in cases of emer gency. Look at your colonies. Treating, for a moment, the East India Company as a private body and apart from its po litical influence, consi ler the position your empire, made from time to time, cemented with our blood and fortified by the wisdom of those who have governed this country. Had our d various colonies anything like the Bengal army ? Consider what would have beenthe difference, if at one time when the nationality of Canada was roused and endangered by the acts of an aspiring and artful demagogue who rose up against Brit ish power—consider the effect if a large French army had been at the beck of that demagogue. As it was, Lord Seaton had nothing to do b u t t o sca t ter a f orce o f unarmed pea santry, and all the insurrection was at an end. Or consider the case of Sir Henry Ward, in the lonian Islands. Suppose, instead of a single regiment, he had had a very large body of Zautiotes or natives of Corfu, armed an I disciplined, and drilled in order. What would have been the aspect in Ceylon if, in 1848, there had been in that island a numerous body of Cingalese ? If that be the case, let us look at the position in which the Bengal army was. Lord Wm. Benti , ek said that most certainly it was the most inefficient army be was ac quainted with. Lord Metcalfe says, " Your situation is pre• carious, but as long as the army is faithful, you aro secure. If that army is 'IA faithful your empire may be at an end in a day." Sir J Malcolm says, " Your position is so precari ous that no man oan tell at any moment whence danger may arise." What is the cause of 'this precarious power ? This army, though it w.s faithful for a very long period, and ae parently contented with anything, yet I remember hearing from officers of high authority that there were four or five thing' t'aet slpey army would not do. One was that they would not cedar° the least suspicion of any interference with their religion. Another was that they would not bear the least want of compliance with their demands for pay and al lowance. Then again the Bengal army never would embark on shipboald or go to sea. Even you find, from the testimony of your officers, that this admiraole army will not go into the trenches and dig for fear of violating their high caste. On the other hand, works arc performed under a burning sun by the British soldiers, who are told by the natives, " You are not fit to associate with Bengal sepoys, and must be degrade 1." Is it not obvious that whilst you have an army of this sort you are not safe ? The question w,s whether, during every year that passed over our heads, it was fortunate we hal not a mutiny arising from some trifling cause which established native su premacy without the means of putting a stop to it. What was the cause of having this army? The cause was a part of that system which Mr. Pitt es ablis ed. Mr. Pitt raised to power, deferred in every respect to the E set India Company, He would allow no man to touch what he called the chartend rights of the company. It would bo robbery, spoliation, and destruc tion of the constituti on to interfere with them. But after the Board of Control was established, Mr. Pitt and Mr. Duedas wished to govern India themselves. In 1798 Mr. Pitt desired to send out to India six regiments which had been raised in this country, though not required here, but wero w,,nted is India. The East India Company protested against this. Mr. Pitt had no power, according to the act of 1784, to send out those troops. Accordingly he introduced a declaratory act, which was a slam-y mode of endeavouring to gain his object. He said that by moans of such a declaratory act he might send out troops to India, and he carried the question. But the East India Company, when Mr. Pitt was at the summit of his power, had sufficient influence to secure the introduction of clauses into the bill which placed a limit upon the number of troops to be sent to India. From that time I have heard on the testimony of officers high in command, that the greatest jealousy was caused in consequence of the increase in the number of the Queen's army, and there was always the greatest preference shown for the native troops. The mutiny then took place, and the army which they had petted and spoilt, broke out into revolt, massacreing their officers, wives and children. This required something on the part of the Government, and of this house to be done for the futu r e. W e cannot, even if it we re d esirable, expect to raise up such a aga i n , portio ns o f w hi ch aro still in open revolt. India an a rmy o f th e Queen. It must be a a British arm y , an army of her Majesty the Eir ß u e o Bengal og mustp al e a a n se a n hr y amv n Queen. When you have made that change you will have broken down the foundation of the power of the East India Company ; an d I cannot see that an army of 50,000 or 60,000 Queen's troops can bo placed at the disposal of the East India Company. W e must use the name of the Crown, and inter , pose tile authority of the Crown, political and civil power necessarily being vested in the Crown, as well as the military powe r . ( He ar , hear.) That appears an urgent case for legislatio n, and whether we lecislato thi s y e a r or next year, we cannot close our e y es t o t h e necessity of legis lation. I m ust decline to f o ll ow the example of tho hon. baronet, who discussod . the details o: t :e bill introduced by my no ble friend, the First Minister of the Crown, f or I d e fy any man to argue on the provisious of the bill without seeing the bill itself, and the connection of the clauses one with the other. There are some things, however, if the proposed change o f Goverrenent be made, w hi c h I wish the house to keep in mind. lam free to allow that oenefits and advan tages resulted from the independent character and position a f the gentlemen selected as directors of the East India Com pany ; but I do not see how a body of constituents like thaS of the Court of Proprietors can be accepted as the fxure foun d a ti o n for the governing cou nc il of India. It can hardly b e expected that such a basi s w ill b e or indeed can be main tained pres e rve an indePen lent character in the counc il s h m id it b e adopted. I say, therefore, that if thi s part of the bi l l of my' no bl e friend shoul l be found to cont a i n c l auses wh i ch d o no t sufficien tly provide for the obj ec t s I consider essential, I shall join any ho n . g entleman iu requiring that security be pro vided for the ind e p e ' ,deu ce of the membe rs o f counc il. (Hear, ta i i g that ca n b e d one ought to be d 'an to p ; but every thin ill h ear .) Another o b j ec t which I wish to keep in view is the great military and civil sservices which have been performed in India. They are the most noble and the most successful and I trust, with the same benefit to England which have ever appeared on the face of the globe. (Hear. which they have already conferred. (Hear, bear.) hear.) wish I tof suchsee security, but it is one They should be kept up with all heir_ rewards and is whether those men of the middle classes have n TaTi o h t del° d lqll o llin i l a sie't'ni e t°sti e ' eything' in our service that we wished (10110 - whether they have not faqhfully, zealously, and laboriously, gene rats, performed their duties, positions, statesmen and p l i t o t e h n e r w . will ever male° me coesent to any provisions of the bill pro posedrasedsh should o t to bo introduced which in. any d • may injure or degree depreciate those services, (Hear, hear.) There is another men nh'be the case, noticing on which we must make up our minds to encounter danger. I wish it could be said that by means of the Ministerial plan questions of Indian Government would be saved from be coming matter of party debate in this house. (liear.) There are gentlemen in this house who no doubt decline to place confidence in the Government for the time being —they dis trust either their competent y or their honesty — (hear) — or perhaps both. (Laughter.) It cannot be expected, that tlicre wilt be an absence of all bias on all motions or debates in that house on the affairs of India ; alth ,ugh nothing can be more injurious to ourselves than to make subjects of the utmost delicacy matters of popular debate and the theme of angry party conflicts. But that is the condition of our very existenc e. We must bear with it in India as we have borne with it elsewhere. I see how much deliberation it will take iu order to avoid as much as possible those dangers, and yet I see no alternative but that-of looking the question in the face, and endeavouring with all the deliLerative wisdom of Paniament to come to a proper selution as to the fat are f etc of this great empire which is entrusted to our hands—(hear, hear)—which we are to hold for the benefit and happiness of millions and millionsof that duty well. I feel sure we cannot avoid it. (Cheers.) --- Mr. D ISRAELI-e-Sir, the noble lord concluded a his tory of the & Toy army w i t h an emo ti on w hi c h mus t h ave been shar e d b y every member i n t hi s h ouse, an d no ono could hav e li stened to Lis narrat i ve w i t h ou t f ee li ng th e sincerity o f every sentence he had del i vered respect i ng th e danger w e h a d incurred from that force. But w h a t sur prised me most was, th a t w ith so full an acquaintance with this s u bj ect, and so profound a conv i c ti on o f thi s lin minont peril, the noble lord in 1853 had not thought fit to call the attention of his colleagues to so serious a state of affairs. (Rear, hear.) And, sir, I agree with the noble lord that it is very difficult, and certainly itis not my task, d onlyi to vindicat e th e elements of the const i tuen t b o d y b y w hi c h the dire c t ors of the East India Company may h e c h osen. It is very p oss ib le that the constituent bo d y can h e j ust l y descrile surely in th e year 1853 the noble lor d , ca ll e d upon t o con by the epithet used by the noble lord : but eider the whole question of our Indian empire, and the means of administering the government by which its affairs should be cooducte 1 must have been equally sensible of what he now styles the " ab-urdity" of these elements. Nor do I f ee l that the noble lord was particularly happy in the argument he urged and the illustration he offered to show that this is the time for legislation respecting India. According to the noble lord the matter will run aids : We legislated in favour of our fellow-subjects professing the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland when we were iu fear of insurrectio n in that country, and, therefore, why should we shrink, when there i 3 an insurrection in from doing the sam e thing? (Rear.) But, with great stib leission to the noble lord there appears to be between the two cases exactly that difference which destroys all the force of his reasoning and all the appositeness of his illus tration. Because I can easily conceive that a statesman might propose to legislate for a country where he was afraid of insurrection if he thought that he could thereby prevent it—(hear)—but surely when insurrection rages no identity of circumstances exists which would justify the inference on which the noble lord laid such stress. Nor, when the noble lord enters into the causes of the In ' dian revolt, and finds arguments in it in favour of legisla tion, can I forget that when last year I asked the house to inquire into this subject no one was so strong, I might even say so violent, as the noble lord in impressing upon the house that until the insurrection was completely put down it was idle to investigate its causes, and that all the energy of the country ought to be devoted to its suppres sion. Sir, I have long been of opinion that it was a mat ter of high policy that the relations between the sovereign of these realms and the inhabitants of India should be drawn more nearly and rendered more direct. I have for a long time been persuaded that by such a consummation the administration of India must be greatly improved, and that such a change would be the precursor of benefits to the population of thet country, and indeed to the popula tion of our own, which it would be difficult to exaggerate. In examining the question that is now brought Wore us, and in bringing my powers of investigation to the measure of the Government, I at least am influenced by no preju dice, becalm the bias of my mind—and none of us can consider a question of such magnitude free from bias— would rather bo in favour of the object sought to be ob tained by the proposition of the Government. Nor, Sir, as we have heard a great deal of party feeling, could Ibe at all influenced iu considering this question by any such feeling in regard to the proposer of the amendment. It is an honour that I deeply appreciate that I enjoy the ac quaintance, and I hope I may add the friendship, of the hon. member for Huntingdon (Mr. T. Baring). It was, however, only recently, at the end of the last session, that my hon. friend informed the house, and not for the first time, that he regretted to say, upon the subject of India, that my views and his own seldom agreed. Therefore, when I come to ask myself what course I ought to pursue upon this question, I feel that I am approach ing it without prejudice, and until the arguments that have satisfied my mind are answered I shall believe that the course which I shall take is also tke most prudent for the house to adopt. If I had thought that a change in the (Unction recommended by her Majesty's Ministers was 1 one that would draw the relations between the inhabitants of this country and India nearer—if I thought that it would greatly improve the condition of the inhabitants of that country—l must still express my opinion that the operation end result of the measure of the Government would produce in both instances quite a contrary effect. ' Before we come to the vote I must ask the house to con sider the influence which the vote they are asked to adopt will have on the finances of this country. I have not heard that quesion clearly put in the course of this debate, but it appears to me to be one, not only of the greatest import an ia, but also extremely pressing and imminent. We have had on several occasions a controversy on the identity be tween English and Indian finance, and I believe the general opinion is, that although it will not be possible ultimately to disconnect them, yet that the means by which they will be inseparably united will be a gradual and slow process. Let me remind the house of the bill now on the table for raising money for the service of India, and of the effect on our finance and upon Indian finance of the proposal of the Government. It is idle any longer to distinguish between English and Indian finance. If the President of the Indian Council—a Queen's Minister in Downing-street—should find it necessary to raise money by a public loan to pay her Majesty's troops in India, it will be idle, when the divieends are due upon that loan, to pretend to assert that i he wilt be able to say, if the means are not at hand, " The exchequer of India is empty, and the revenue of India is alone liable." (Eisen.) Every gentleman will feel in his own mind, that such a distinction as this between the financ es of India and England cannot be retained for a moment, and that a blow upon British credit at its very source, and where the tide is highest, will be infallible and in evitable, if such a plan can be urged by a British Minister. (Hear, hear.) Before we agree to the in troduction of this bill I ask the house to consider what are the financial relations at this moment between England anti India. Sit, we have official documents upon the table that show at this moment a chronic deficit in India of about 2,000,00.11. sterling per annum. ‘Ve have a paper—l do not know whether it is official, but it is au thentic, and it is generally circulated—which shows that next year there will be in India 92,000 of her Majesty's troops—that is to say, 52,000 of her M .jesty's troops in excess of the estimates to which we are so long accustomed and which we may consider the routine finance of India. You can't on an average put down your ree,iments of artil lery, cavalry, and infantry at less than 90,e00/. a-piece, and you must estimate the cost of these 52,000 troops at a sum of between 4,000,0001. and 5,000,r00/. sterling. Of course, you are to deduct the expense of ~ our DeLgiil Army, which is now ab.,lishe I, but that expense is only one moiety of that sum of 4,000,0001. or 5,C0 ),0001. Therefore, when you are adopting the government and the liabilities of India, which you are now asked to do without consideration, you are adopting a chronic deficit of at least 4,000,0001. ster ling. (Hear.) I beg the house to observe that I have put the case without reference to the consequences of the late and present disturbance to the revenue of India. The defi cit of the Indian revenue will be 10,000,000/. this year. I am throwing this extraordinary influence and result out of the estimate, but I take the clear deficit which for several years has regularly accrued. lam adding to it tho inovi ' table increase of expenditure caused by this force, which must maintain your authority in India, and I tell you you will have to deal immediately- with an Indian deficit of between 4,000,0001. and 5,000,0001. What, then, is the position of this country? Have we a surplus revenue of such an amount that, we can look forward with calmness and composure to a proposal of this kind, and a to policy that entails such responsibility ? The Chancellor of the Exchequer has not yet told us the state of our finances. It is a communication that cannot be long delayed, and will be an addition to those nights of interest which the present session promises to produce. I do not presume to form an accurate estimate of that statement. but I would n o t t a k e 7,000,0001. t o pay the Britisl. deficit that will lee introduced to us by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the course of a month. (" rear, hear," and a laugh.) You aro not, therefore, merely doing a sentimental act, and changing the Govern ment of a country by an aye or no, but the question is, are you prepared to entail upon the Minister of Finance an immediate deficit of 11,000,0001. or 12,000,000/. sterling ? (Hear.) The House may rely upon it that this wiel be the consequence of the act which it is so lightly called upon to sanction, and sshich so many of its members aro so care lessly prepared to ratify. Before the House of Commons, before the people of England incur such a responsibility, they ought to make themselves masters of the resources of India--(hear, hear)—they ought to make themselves mas ters of the means by which the revenue of that country is raised and the expenditure controlle t. That shows how completely we have in this business begun at the wrong end. (Hear.) India is not governed in Cannon-row or in Lea lenhall-atreet ; it is governed in Calcutta. (Hear.) If you pass au act of this kind which, by a phrase, seems to change the Government of India, you will, without acting upon the more distant and real Government, entail upon this country all the consequences of the policy and the eilgageme its of the Government in India, while, in fact you will have no control whatever over the system which prevails in that country. You will find that when you have passed this bill you will have less means of governing India than by the somewhat roundabout system which exists you overt now obtain. (Hear.) What is the real Government of In ? If yat were to form your opinion from the bill which the noble lord has described you would imagine that the Government of India depended upon a few individuals living in England, receiving public salaries, and obeying the dictates and commands of a Minister of State ; but the Government of I n di a i s some thi ng very dif ferent. The Government of India has, in the first place, to I deal with the rising of an immense revenue, whichis not a :e -quate to the expeuditure,and unless, when you take u on ' yourselves the pecuniary respoosibilities of Inflia,you at the same time take measur e s by w hi c h you can appropriate and prudently manage the resources of that country, all that you will obtain by the bill which the Government now i asks permission to intr o duce—all that yeti will obtain will be that you will have to supply the deficiencies of a distant 1 Government over which you will have i nocontrol, an d t h e 1 emarse of whitey as I shall show you, will nevneelely aggra vate all those injurious consequences which you imagine that by this you are going to terminate. What you w a nt is a totel change of the system of administration in India. You want to put an end to the expenditnre which pro duces deficits. You want a power that will examiee your relations with native princes ; you want a power that will examine the means by which your revenue is raised, which will examine into the tenure of laud, and which will bring native capital, which is abundant, to the cultivation of that land. You want all these things, and without them the revenue of India cannot expand. Remember what that revenue is. You have heard it before, but it was not a matter of the slightest interest to the House of Commons or to the country, because they were not responsible for the engagements which upon that revenue were entered into by the persons in power. The revenue of India is princi pally raised from the land by a means which pauperises the country, and under which all those who are acquainted with it agree that that revenue cannot increase. That re venue is also made up from a precarious rend not very hon ourably source. These thin gs , managed with great talent and discretion b 7 a imamate'. service organised for that olsject, and whose existence depended upon the raising of the revenue, have with g r ea t occas i ona l disadvantages and deficiencies worked pretty well ; but it will be quite diffe rent when the credit of England and the credit of India are perfectly identical. If once the deficiency in India is to bo supplied by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the House of Commons, no one will have any great interest in the prudent management of the resources of that country. (Hear, hear.) I say again, you are beginning at the wrong end. You ought to have adopted the course which I took the liberty of recommending last year. When you had put down the rebellion you ought to have sent to India a Royal commission with plenary powers. It would have i been for that commission to investigate the great questions to which I have referred; it would have been for that com mission to revise and establish your relations with native princes, and to organise and construct your forces which never can be formed of the crude material to which the noble lord has referred. You will have to raise a largo native force, and up on th e manner and upon the system in which that force is raised the pecuniary disposition of India will mainly depend. That commission ought to have inquired whether the tenure of land, upon which all de pends, might not be modified beneficially for all parties ; anti then when you had male yourselves, when the coun try had made itself master of the situation, then it would have been high time to consider whether formally and completely in the metropolis the change should not have Ihlen carried oat which would transfer the supreme autho rity in India to her Majesty. At present we are undertak ing an immense liability ; we aro entering into engagements which will some day make us tremble, and we have no security whatever that those who really possess power in India, who really manage the resources of that country, will be in the least controlled fur our benefit, or will so manage th ose resources, or exorc i se th a t au thority, that the proposed arrangement shall not produce increased evils. L e t me as k th e h ouse t o cons id er h ow this measure, if carried, will act as regards the real go vernment in India. L e t us f or a momen t assume that this bill, as do ser:bed by the noble lord, has passed both houses of Par liament and received her Majesty's assent. We shall have a presid en t o f I n di a , an d a co uncil of eight nominees. Now, sir, when in 1853, I, in company with my noble friend th e mem b er f or Ki ng ' s Lynn (Lard Stanley), im plorsd the h ouse no t t o hasten to a settlement, of this question, but to enter into a full examination before they decided upon the government of India, we had before use proposition that one-third of the directors should b e Uevernment nominees To that proposition I raised an objection which I thought was never answered. It ap peared to me that if there were to be directors cr members of council nornin ,ted by the Crown, they ought, above all things, to be independent -- (hear , hear)—aud I could not see how that independence could be obtained unless they were p€rmanent. There seemed to be for independence an d knowledge two-qualities which were indispensable, no se curity but permanency. (year.) i That I thought a vital i objection to the Bill of 1853 , and f t were v. vital objection to that bill by which only one - third of the directors or councillors were to be Government nominees, wh a t s h a l l a we sayproposition according to which all th e mem b ers os e of the council are to be nominees? (Hear.) How will this work? What will be the inevitable concur, the influence which it will exercise upon the real government of India, -- - aid the fatal verities which it will have upon the fortunes if this country ? The Government nominees, according to the plan proposed by the Government, cannot be indepen dent. Far from independence, there is every element of dependence provided. (Hear.) We do not even see them in this house. They are secluded from the constitutional criticism of Parliament. What will be the influence of the nominees upon the President of the Council ? Why, sir, they will have that influence upon their superior which in feriors generally exercise. They will have no influence unless they pander to his interests—(hear)—and none will be eommended, none will be looked upon es assiduous and energetic except those who are his assiduous supporters, and those who are active and accomplish the purposes of the Government. It requires no argument to prove that, so far as influence is concerned they will sink into that in significant position which is the inevitable lot of persons placed in such circumstances ; they will b rcowe completely the creatures of the Minister, who will be able to tie him self of them whenever he likes. A plausible Minister could get rid of all the eight Government nominee conn cillors in 24 hours. Lot there be another cry for adminis trative reform, let there be another demand for economical reductions, and I can imagine no Minister more popular than a Chancellor of the Exchequer who, in mak ing his annual statement, shoulddilate upon the reductions in the public service, the large amount saved to the nation, and the diminution of expenditure by a patriotic Ministry. He would enter into all the details, give us aca s alogue of all the salaries diminished, and the places abolished, and would wind up by saying that he had the greatest satisfae tion in informing the House of Commons that his right hon. friend the President of the Council of India, with that public spirit which had always distinguished,him, and that devotion to public business for which he was remark. able, had found out that the 8 members of the council were of no use whatever, that he could do all the business him self, and that 8,0001. a year might be saved to the public service. (A laugh.) Where would he your nominee coun cillors ? They would have as little influence as a lay lord of the Admiralty, who, without discharging a single known duty, disappears from the scene of active life. (A laugh.) Now, when we get the Minister, we shall have him practi cally a single solitary Minister. I will admit, whoever he may be, that he has eminent talents, great experience, and unrivalled energy; but with all these great qualities, what will be his position? With all the demands thet will be made upon him, and these will be the greater in proportion to the brilliancy of his qualities and the energy of his mind what will be the positiou of this Pie sideut of the Indian Council when he has to transact the business of en nations n Hindostan? :thy, sir, there is no intellect that will not sink perplexed and overwhelmed under the burden. And what will be the consequence? Everybody in this house must know. He will have to trust entirely to the Governor- General. It will be impossible for the English Minister to grapple with the details of Indien administration, and what then will be the position of the Governor-General I You tinnk you will have obtained India:, refer in by this bill ; while, in point of feet, it never touches Indian administra tion on the other side of the ocean. The Governor-General may be an able and ambitions man, and may be desirous, as most men are, that his name should be talked of and remem bered. He will embark perhaps in conquests or in great works, and take care that his administration is brilliant and famous. The expenditure of India will increase every year, because the Governor-General will depend upon the admirably conceived and highly gifted labours of the civil servants in India, and they will support and assist him as long as he supports ant assists them, and so long as he depends on the revenue raised by the proconsular system which they uphold. They will support the Governor- General so long as he carries out the system of govern- ment now established in India—a system which may have been admirably devised and admirably suited to the con dition of India, but which if adopted by thi s country w ill soon have such an effect on our finances that I believe it will not be a question whether we shall rule India, but whether eve shall ruin the country. (Hear, hear.) But is that all ? May we not have a Minister at home, who, though not able to grapple with the details of Indian ad ministration, m no one man can, will be an able man, capable of taking general views, and who will not allow the Governor-General to pursue his career without some notice being taken of it in a fine historical desp it ch such as no one could write better than the noble lord the mem ber for Lon Son? (A laugh.) How will the Governor- General, in such circumstances, manage a suspicious ad ministration in London ? He will place at the disposal of the Minister the p .tronage of Italia. (Cheers.) Whenever there is one to be rewarded sr got rid of in a moment of emergency, in such exigent circums ancas the Government will know there is ae all-powerful friend who will assist them in the person of the Governor-General of India. (Hear.) But when the Govornor-Gener ,1 has favoured all your creatures ' • when in huedrede of c ases y ou are p l ace d in eilneult and dangerous circumstances, and his power and patronage have always been ready to save yeti, tan you call that Governor-General to account ? (Cheers.) Will he not be the possessor of a supremacy of power such as I should be sorry to see any English sub ject command ? (Hear.) The consequence will be that, instead of a change which would draw nearer the rela tions between the inhabitants of Hindostan and England, you will have a law that will produce exclusion andeetrarge ment upon a great scale. (Hear, hear.) Instead of a law that will allow you to breathe a new spirit into our Indian administration, and offset wholesome and regenerating mea .uses, you will have an abyss established between this metropolis and Calcutta that no m. , n will ever be strong enough or bold enough to pass. It is a wise policy to establish the name of the Queen in India,—(hear, hear) but if yoll want to establish the name of the Queen in India,—if you want to transfer thither the authority of the natural functions of the Severeign,—it is in India you must commence the change. It is in India those charges must be effected that are necessary for the good govern ment of,lndia. (near, hear.) And you mast at the very outset meet the financial question. You can no longer, now that.an inevitable connexion is to be established be tween English and Indian finance, allow a blind deficit to be created in India any more than in England. (Cheers.) And by what steps will you effect this great object? A council of insignificant men, who may be swept off the scene in a moment, will•be useless for such a teak ; end even the most distinguished man that ever ruled in Eng ; land could no more in England deal with the gi eat question of Indian a tiniuistratioa than they could deal with the ad ministration in seine distant lend with which they had no connexion. I won't go into those questions that have been touched on by so many gentlemen. I will not enter into the effect upon our Parliamentary life of the increa eel pat oaege that will accrue to the Government ; I will after all 11)4 h rs been lucid, confirm myself to the financial ques tion, which has h ar dly y e t b een touc h e d upon, but which is creall questions the most imps, tent. Twelve mouths has not elapsed since you felt yourselves compelled to put an end to increased taxation caused by the wen on a cons:der able scale. (dear, hear.) Remember the impatience with which whet, the war was concluded the country regarded the heavy ameunt of taxation they had been called to bear. (Hear, hear.) Think what the present state of our finances is. lam not certain that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not now passing many anxious nights in preparing this ways and means for the present year to meet the wants an:l necessities of our do minions in Europe; but when we reflect that the deficit may in a year or two be doubled by the steps you are now taking in regard to India, I beg you to consider what then wiil be the effect on the purses of your oonstituonts. How are we to meat the constituencies when we have a defichney of a much greater amount than we have ever seen in the times that are past? I entreat the house to consider seri ously this question of finance. That is the way in which I would read the amendment of my friend (Mr. Baring), who, I need not say, so far as I am ftiV3l - 0, gave notice of that amensment without consultation with any one. It is nut time to legislate for India till we have had a much more matured plan of legislation before us. Ido not place i nay argument, though it might be p aced triumphantly, on the condition 'of India itself. I do not place it on other groends that have bees stated. I put it on a more selfish footing. I take a lower tone, but one which I find must be urged and pressed on the attention of the house and the country. I ace asked to take a step that will involve this country ire pecuniary einbarasements that ar frightful to , contemplate. Till we have complete possession of the re sources of India in India—till we have the means of avail ' ing ourselves of its resources—:ill we have taken the steps that are necessary to increase those resources, and place I them in a seun I and healthy condition, do not let us take a coer-se which is not transferring the govero went of India from the Company to the Queen, but is only transferring the patronage of the Company to the Government in Down ingestreet. I won't say that is their object, but I will say that it can have no other effect. (Hear, hear.) I lament that this question has been brought forward at this moment. (Hear, hear.) lam not surprised that the House of Com• mons is at this period of the year involved in In debates. No one could suppose that we could meet with ' out our time and our thoughts being called to this question, that eve should meet without inquiring into the causes of the rebellion, into the conduct of the war, and into the policy of those Ministers who, with India in the position in which they tell us it i 9 and has been for yeas, could have embarked in a war with Persia and the empire of China. Weer.) That we should have inquired into all ' these circumstances I can understand ; but strange indeed is the different lot which is await hg us. The proposition that we have before us is this—that we are to increase the power of those who we believe have exercised injudiciously the power they possess, and that we a:e to transfer autho rity to those who have proved by their conduct that they are not worthy of the authority which they alreasly possess. (Cheers.) Sir, I hope the house will hesitate long before it sanctions this ineastne. It is possible on a donate of this kind, originating with an indepeedent member, that a majority at this stage may be obtained ; but I take it for granted that the member for Hue tingdou wanted discus sion—thet he wanted the public attention to ba roused to the immense stake now at issue, and the, afore very rightly, and in that sense very wisely, he has lost no opportunity by which this attention should be attracted. We have heard over and over again in this house that India never could commend attention here—that so long as there was a debate on India it was impossible to keep a house, and that it was a subject however great its magnitude and vest , and varied its details, in which Englishmen would never take an interest. I think, sir, there is a very simple and satisfactory reasc n for conduit, which I cannot say is much to our honour, and for circumstances which I own are some what humiliating. Englishmen have never yet had to rely for India. (Cheers.) That is the secret why India has never produced any interest in this house. Ques tions of conquest, questions of annex , ,ti, n, and even questions of rebellion, the greatest rebellion that has ever happened in this empire, last year hardly commanded attention because hon. gentlemen, full of confidence in the Ministry end in their good stars, went out into the lobby and said, "Never mind, the Coral acy will hav e t o pay for it. (A laugh.) Sir, I think that delusion is gone for ever. I diet think, after this bill shall have passed, that there is one among us who will fail.to see that there is a complete identity between India and Englishmen. Or all the thlesions ever practised in Parliament was that arrangement of 1853, which afforded the House of Com mons an opportunity of hearing an India budget. (A laugh.) An Indian budget detailing the fortunes and pro gress of the empire was a subject not likely to emtribute much to the edification of the house, and who could be surprised that the Minister could not command a house to listen to the lucid narrative ? (A laugh.) But what I want to impress on the house is, that those days of Paradise are over. We may in future misgovern India, but in future we shall have to pay for it. (llcar, hear,) We hive boon discussing these affairs for three or four nights, but what hon. gentleman has descended from the high Empyrean of politics to touch on this vulgar point. Depend upon it, however, it will more and more develops itself until it acquires colossal proportions, and, if you ewxaismhintiongtaykoeuar prudent s t e p an d se ize the opportunity of position before incurring fresh responsibilities I recom mend you to wait till you have seen the budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer before involving yourself in the Indian expenditure. (Cheers.) Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, there is nothing more curi ous sometimes than the progress of a debate. This debate began by the hon. member for Huntingdon movings.modest amendment, professing that the question was not one that ought to be traced in any party spirit, that it was simply a matter of opinion, and that upon that ground he called for the decision of the hotif3 J3ut when the gentlemen on the other side of the table took tip the debate we found it as sume a shape of the most animated and acrimonious party spirit. We remember the speech of the hon. member sow Enniskillen. We have "seen" the speech to-night of the hon. baronet the member for Hertfordshire, of which I will only say. whether it excited conviction in the minds of those who heard it I know not, but lam sure it excited deep envy in the mind of the hon. member for Enniskillen. (Laughter and cheers.) No doubt the hon. member for Enniskillen, when next he rises to address the horse, will feel that he will have to put forth, not his mental, but his physical exertions, for the purpose of equalling, for be cannot surpass, the exhibition we have seen. (Laughter.) But the right hon. gentleman who has just sat down has come to the real point of the case. He, throwing asid e ovate tiding connected with the mere abstract question, has stated the question in his opinion as this, that we who 5 " on this side of the house are not worthy of the confidence which the Crown and the country have reposed in us, and that we are unworthy to continue to exercise that power, which he says will be augmented by the bill under c^nel . deration. Sir, if that be the opinion of hon. gantlemen opposite, why slo they shrink from putting that question to the house? (Cheers.) Then, forsooth, the right hon. gentleman taxes us with our policy in regard to China , which he knows received the full and entire approbation of Parliament and the country. He has also endeavoured to frighten the members of this house with a financial bug' bear. He says, if you pass this bill you will have a cons: plete identity between the finances of this country Aug the finances of India. Nothing can be more contrary to the real fact than the statement that this bill wilt mak e , no difference between the fi nances o f E ng l and and t h ose of India. On the contrary, it will render that division more clear and more precise, and will put it more in the power of Parliament to control the expenditure. The most cari ous thing has been the way in which those who base I °P . ported the motion of the hon. member for Huntingdon have endeavoured to make that motion square with the opposite opinion on which that motion is founded. Th e greater part of those wh o h ave spt ,k en on the other sines have admitted , and non e more s t rong l y t h an t h e r ight hon. gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire, that it is highly expedient that the Government of Ingle , should be a d m i n i s t ere d i u t h e name of the Queen. But , says the right bon. gen tl eman, you should continnue tne present systeei, and yet you should have the administration of India carried on in the name of the Queen. Why are the East La Oa Company to carry on th e a d m i n i s t rat ion uf India in the na t r e o f th e Q ueen ? Are they to be server°d into officers holding office under the Crown.? How is it ea" Bible you emit,' have the administration of them in thenanie of the Queen ? They possess an Indian Council, of which certaitt number of members are nominees of the Crown, and which has DO direct counuueicetion with the responsible advisers of the Crown. We propose to abolish the council, ant transfer the power to another Council, with the addition of other nominees of the Crown, mai to place the Council in di' eat personal communication with the responsible s dvie e e r of the Crow n; b ut t h • right hon. gentleman who, in 1 80 ' 9 said he did not k now who was the Indian Governiment or who was responsible for it, appears to-night at last to h t ye found that out. H e says is the Governor-General- jl' 6 says you may do what you like at home, but it is the Go' vernor-General of India w h o h as the ruling authority • it is he whom you ought to control, and it is in India, therefore, that you ought to make your alterations. Sir, that. opinion is diametrically opposed to the opinion on which the hoe. hie bar for Huntingdon has found e d hi s amendment. Jtte sayt it is inexpedient to disturb anything relating to Indian affairs until the mutiny is over. But suppose you wero r eally to send out a Royal Commission to India to supersede 0 1 Governor-General at a momen t w h en you require a ll bin energy and experience, a re y ou t o sent a rov i ng commis"°n to inquire into all the proceedings of the Governor-Gener al and the officers under him ? I say that no course could 05 better calculated than that to defeat your purpose , and to prev en t th e tranqu illi sation of India. If it P true, as 1. think is admitt e d b y a l mos t a ll those who be/s spoken upon this subject with any weight or authority .-- barring those who, belongi ng t o th e C ourt o f Di rec tors, must naturally have great difficulty in arriving_ at e ti r conclusion that a c h ange ought to be effected -4' great advantage a t h ome and great benefit in India v/00'd arise from governing that country by the direct authority of the Queen, then I s a y you oug h t to b egin at home, and not commence by any local change in Felts.; and the nit *. sure which we propos , ' is v, nil calculated to produce the u e i ,ltd result with as littl e d erangement and alterat i o n , ° machinery as is con s i s t en t w i t h t h e accompl i shment of Cuet object of view. But it i s sa id th at t h e mem b ers of t h e Con cii will not be ind epen d ent. l am at a loss to underetalle what they mean when they use that argument. If thel mean that you are to have associated with the Presid en s o who is charged with the administration of Indie, a Coiln' re who are to thwart him, who are to be antagonistic, wh ° . a t e to overrule his decisions, and who are not to be res , pons ; l : either to Parliament or the country, then I say tha t :it,: s I sort of council not likely to conduce to harmonious ac"le er beneficial results. What would hon. gentlemen have sa id if we had proposed, as they have suggested, to appoi°",,./ Council the members of which should be for life? VT,; 3 h any one of them h ave acquiesced in a proposal by vitt:iv the Government of the day was to appoint perpetual cillors, who were to control and overrule those who reig. hereafter, by a c h amp) of political parties, become reslia'n a sible fur the admi n i s t rat i on o f I n di a ? Responsibilityr J ar this country can on l y rest i n one quarter, that tl" being those persons whO, by the confidence of the Cro or , ant the choi ce o f P ar li ament, are for the time being 10',V10- able for the conduc t o f _ pu bl ic affairs. Moreover, the , posed Council must be a council of advice, not a couecl ea control. It is ss id th a t th e persons who may b e c harge with the manag emen t o f a ff a i rs w ill choose those Wl°.ne most obsequious, a nd mos t di spose d to y i e l d to the P s !_ tn e e et and prejudices of the Goveru went o f th e d a y. That is 4ect the principle up on w hi c h any sensi bl e man wou ld aet en e his advisers. We must suppose that the Governut iee would wish to b e a d v i se d b y t h ese most competent , to . e e advice, and s o f ar f rom choosing a , c o uncillors tnu s nu, most likely to be su b serv i ent and flexible, they would doubt deem it their duty as well as their interest to selec those who, by their knowledge, experience, talent, 16 ,7 30 capacity wore meat certain to prove useful assistants 0 ;1, 0 management of Indian affairs. It appears to me that arrangement which w e p ropose i s t h at which is mos t o °o ducive to the end which We have in vi e w. J can quite su n. o , derstand those who sa y th a t t h ey are oppose d to ee t change. I may hold a different opinien, but I can. fe ebt (i t logical process by which h on . gentlemen might arri the conclusion that the pre sen t sys t em i s b es t, and i;f to be continued. But th a t w hi c h I canno t un derstand ee that ,gentlenen who think th e eresen t system is no: !T s best, and ought not t o b e con ti nu ed—who think, o I:a, contr .11, that it is def e cti ve i n pr i nc iple, a nd thatgreutf vantage mast arise from transterring the govern in . °D ., 'twist to the Crown— sh ou ld pronounce th a t opint t ° t r en , Parliament, d oom i ng t h e Company by their condeniu"t tn ed and yet should w i s h to cont i nue the government so dou bie e for an ind e fi n it e per i od, and under circumstances in 'vetoer the administ ra ti on of India requires unity o f actiont e v :% s t, of execution, and s i ng l eness of purpose. (Cheers.) of t he then, that the hou se w ill not b e led away by any °ented sophistries wo have h eat d . I trust it will not be da' as hy the phantom which the right hon, gentleman the in ese her for Buckinghamshire has endeavoured to raise of 6°, 4 imaginary call upon the public revenue of this country f 0 governmentthe pu p h e a f s l i n t d i Indian n i service.tsp ewer to o f c b r e e t a r s u e e ec d e is a t 7 e st the expenditure of India—if you have reason to the n the Governor-General for the time being — whY eet ero strengthen your home government, give it greater P e ," ou t, of control, anti place it in direct contact with Parlie; e er , so as to enable the House of Commons to interfere wb e ' es a t necessary. What conflicting opinions we have open 1. Some gentlemen say there is not sufficient control i be that the 100 local government of India. Well, that control vict- the furnised by bringing the responsible advisers o f par' Crown in regard to Indian affairs in direct contact telif te d to liatneet. But then those whore I should have exPey l for be ernbued with constit u ti ona l pr i nc i p l es say, d Oh e, oh heaven's asks , let not the House of C ommo ns riled oe y ludian affairs ; th ere i t no t e lli n to what degree faction pervert these q ues ti ons t o th e pu bli c i n j ury. " I b °,,, 00 e s to deference to opi n i ons f rom t he other side of the 1 1 ",_ 1 Id° the extent to whi c h f act i on may b e carried. (A tang; ' he ad ; not pres me t o q ues ti on the assertions made upon the tha t but, in spite of the feats entertained by hon, gentlern: oue tri au Opposition may from factious motives injure theirn_tith. for the purpose of weakening their opponents, and Z en tarY, eta ding, also, what I know to be the play of per a lit,r ess e tactics, I feel assured that the good sense of. tb d, ..` an d that Commons would prevent any attempts of that ur 111(1 1 great benefit would arise to the interestS true; empire from the vigilant supervision of Pat-Hansen , . therefore, that the House will not be led away by either be e eloquence which we have heard to-night, or the nlo o l: vin ik ' aegurnont of the hon. member for Huntingdon. 13 I ' h oiD s a o s t l ie d d o, t t h h e a q t, u t e h s e ti g o r n ea i t n b t u h lk ei o r f o t w h n e p m eo in p d le s, of a t: ld ti s ic m o v u e ut e rf otle t,o o the deliberate conviction that the present complicated e; of government ought not to continue—(hear, hear)--b olls tbe uo as I do that now is the time f or making the change__ delay ought to take place - that you ought not to hent l e olie action a government at home which is doomed by tt it , t ei% opinion and by Parliamentary discussion—l trust House will give us leave to bring in a Bill, the ge ra r eal line of which I have explained, and w ill ureose,." serious attention upon its provisions , not think, to r n , d feating a measure which is calculated, as we it a4 mote passing ore mote the public good, but for the purpose o nd Ye n ite effective shapo. Let that course be adopted, to say the change which we propose, should Parliamen t . ,_ e fe c o , wisdom think fit to accomplish it, will do more for the rests of our great em e ire in the East than any oturt could be suggested. bestow their p n but Mr; NEWDEGATE rose to a dd ress th e House, an received with such loud' and general cries of "ole WO " Divide 1" that, after making a few remarks van e " totally inaudible, he was obliged to desist. lea The House then di v id e d upon the question t h a t given to bring in the Bill, when there appeared — 319 ........................................ , Noes .. ?jam d . Majority ".ice d ................ with 1° The announcement of th e num b ers was wee, cheers. The House adjourned at five 'oleck. g,,livs.park ? nthethweifle6otlif Lieut.-Colonel BIRTHS. ~,,, Vt BIDDITLFII Royal Artillery, .of a son. 13 Ow LOWTHER-- On the 16th inst., at Ampthill-parlto --e -C a o t lo B ne C l shire, the Hon. Mrs. W. Lowther, of a son. f Ij eria LOWRY—On the Lth inst., At Ventnor, the wife &- tenant-Colonel Lowry, 47th Regt , of a daug hter 4 o oS ' ROBINSON—On the 14th inst., at 23, Brornpton-e'" the wife of J. C. Robinson Esq., of a sou. MARRIAGES. gad' M`SHANE--MoßuissoN—On the 16th inst., str L ton, tg hues. tAer:pi3Vor: lobone Church, John M`Shane, Esq., ot Br.gb , 9614 Linn, Ann, fourth daughter of Robert Morrissoll of the Audit Office, Somerset.house. t i r kli ri a g : TioURNALL —IIOVirES -On the 16th inst., a" ii, P S f borough, .I'.; oi that° ptonsbire, William Thur",,hter - of Bedford, to K a th er i ne R aw li n ., second d W " Thomas Howes, Esq., of Northampton. DEATHS. o °l4 BENNETT—On the 16th inst., at Hastings, th e n e t .. C °l3. Bennett, M.A., evening lectu rer a t St. Mich ell ' bill, aged 55. Pe . 13R BAINIDGE—On the 17th inst., at Trinity C0%1,101" therhithe, Mr. Joseph B a i n b r id ge , late of. 1 " Cumbeiland, aged 68. 05 11° EnvirenDa—On the rith inst., at 3 1 a • C ntoburd Maida-vale, Gilbert J. Edwards, aged 70. FITZROY—Oa the IGth inst., in Half-mO OO-s " " ' 61 ' dilly, Sir Chailes Augustus F't C • 1 3" s i g ../ °d aroy, • LONDON ; Printed and Publishod by fiitTlW° -., 1 4° ' of No, 112, Strand, Printsr, at Tilt San - Stand, in the Precinct of ths Savoy, 10 the of Alid(iiesex, Friday, February 1 9 , Iq.3' to the rights and privileges of the East belie Company, is fraught with danger to the constitutional interests of Eng land, and is perilous to the prosperity of the Indian Empire.' Sir C. WOOD commenced his remarks by referring to the changes which had been made by the act of 1853 in the Government of India, which he characterised as the greatest that had been made since 1784. In that year an end was put to the elective and independent condition of the council of India by the introduction into it of the nominated members of the Crown. It was said that those members who were nominated by the Crown would lack that independence which was necessary on the part of th e directors of the company, but he challenged 193 , _ hon . member of that house, or director of the East India Com pany, to show that the directors nominated by the Crown had not discharged their duties as ably and as independ ently as those who were elected by the proprietors in the a j os that ty , a Government had H an e l occurred. mode whichiT e r egretted had to put an end to the state of thing s as settled in 1853. The M Government, however, brought in the bill in that year on the express understanding that probably at some future period a further change might be made in the government of India, and that the measure then proposed would facili tate such further change. He was anxious that her Ma jesty's Government should stand fairly with the house in this matter, and he proceeded to refer to the speech which he had made in introducing the bill, to the effect that it might be necessary at some future period to take the Government of India entirely into the hands of the Government of this country, and to carry on the adminis tration of the country in the Queen's name. On that occa sion the Government of which he was then a member re fused to )agree to any fixed time for the duration of the bill which was then proposed. The right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle had also expressed an opinion to the effect that at some short period the government of India must inevitably be placed under the direct administration of the Crown. The Government of 1853 had left it de signedly and avowedly open to the Government at any future time to assume thedirect government of the country. Thus circumstances had arisen which, in the opinion of her Majesty's Government, justified them in adopting that course which had been contemplated in 1853. It must be open to discussion whether these circumstances were sufficient to justify the government acting in this manner ; but, at all events, there could be no doubt that, in the course pro posed, they were not acting inconsistently with the inten tion of the Government in 1853. What was now proposed was, that the government of India should be entirely go verned by the responsible advisers of the Crown. He had never conceived it possible that any plan of government should lee proposed as had been intended by the hon. mem ber for Sheffield, which would leave the whole administra tion in the hands of one Secretary of State, without the advice of a council. It was indispensible that while there should be a responsible minister connected with the Go vernment, there should also be a council of able and expe rienced men to guide and check such minister. It was impossible to suppose that any one person who might be elected by the Government would be able to manage the affairs of India, or to bring to bear upon the subject a sufficient amount of knowledge and experience which would justify the removal altogether of a council such as that proposed in the bill, br which had always existed in connection with the government of India. In one shape or another they must have a government for India consti tuted of a responsible Minister of the Crown and a council of advice. For the period of two years, during which he had held the office of President of the Board of Control, he had received the greatest assistance from the Court of Directors, and he had always found them able and willing to give the best possible information upon all subjects upon which their advice and opinion were sought. He had con sulted with four different chairmen of the court at various times, and had availed himse'f of the information which could be afforded by any of the other directors— just as he would have done of any of the persons connected with the Board of Control, and he most do thorn the justice to say that they were always able and willing in the most ardent manner to give him theirassistance and advice. The Board of Directors formed, no doubt, as good a court for council and advice as could be found. But if the gov edenment of India were to be carried on in the name of the Queen, the members of the Council must be independent, and appointed in some other form then that by election of persons who happened to be holders of East India Stock. The substantial change which was proposed to be made was therefore really much less than it appeared to be, but a more absurd mode of electing; a council for advising a responsible Minister of India could not well be conceived than that of the present Court of Proprietors of the East India Company. He was utterly at a loss to con ceive why, seeing the character of the members who had been nominated under the act of 195'3, the whole conncil which are now proposed to be nominated should not be equally as efficient as the existing court. Since he had been connected with the Board of Control in 1853 he had always felt the deepest interest in everything connected with India, and had carefully watched the progress of events which were going on there, even when fully occu pied by the business of other important departments. He implored hon. members, therefore, to decide the question submitted to them according to the best of their judgment, and as a matter of such vital importance as the Govern ment of India—looking to the millions under our rule and the great responsibility which we had taken upon our selves—to throw away party feeling of every kind and vote honestly and uprightly for that which they believed to be the best form of government for the people of India. Mr. WILLOUGHBY felt most reluctantly compelled to oppose the measure of the Government; and he would do so principally because it would directly tend to draw questions with reference to India within the area of party politics and party discussions, from which, under the present system, th e y were h app il y shut out. They were about to legislate for an empire, and not for a colony ; and through what agency had that magnificent empire been created ? Notwithstanding the high autho rity of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he must presume to assert that that empire was acquired through the medium of the Company. It was true, indeed, that they were assisted with the troops and ships of England; but it must also be remembered that every farthingeof the ex ' pense was defrayed by the Company—(hear)—and not only I the, but the revenue of India had been frequently applied ' for imperial purposes—witnese the attack on Java, on Bal laria, the war in Affghanistan, and lately the wars with Persia sod China. (Hear.) The bill was ill-timed and inopportune, and even the most perfect measure could not fail of producing pernicious effects if enacted at such a juncture. He could say with all sincerity that he had not fallen in with a single member of the civil or military service of India who regarded the bill with any other feeling but that of dismay. But he principally had had regard to the effect of the passing of the measure upon the natives of India. The people of India were a sensi tive people, and, above all, they were apprehensive of change. They would remember that the Government of 1853 was partly composed of the members of the Govern ment of 1853, and they would then ask most naturally how came it that that which was regarded as such a mas terpiece of wisdom in 1853, when the Parliament of Eng land had legislated for India, was regarded as weak and foolish in 1858. They would, therefore, come to the con clusion that the destruction of the Company's authority was connected with the outbreak of the mutiny, that a new policy was about to be inaugurated for India, and that tney must forthwith expect the invasion of some of their most cherished privileges. The effect of that would be more injurious on the minds of the population than was the greased cartridge question upon the native army. In deed, ha was not aware that a desire for a change in the form of government had emanated from any party in India, except it be from a small section of the Anglo- Indian community at Calcutta, whose demand was prompted by the refusal of Lord Canning and his council to adopt a policy of indiscriminate vengeance. (Hear.) It was sail that the double government was cumbrous and irresponsible ; perhaps on the other hand, it might be uaged that the importance of the promptitude described by those hon. gentlemen would turn out to be exaggerated. The fact was, the duties of the controlling authorities in England ware deliberative and not executive. India, to be governed well, must be governed in India—(hear)—and it was therefore necessary to entrust vast, nay, even des potic powers to the Governor-General, and to the authori ties who acted in conjunction with him. But in conse quence of that very necessity, so much the greater was the necessity of their acts and proceedings being scrutini-ned by an independent body, not in a spirit of captiousness, but 1 out of a generous consideration and with a due apprecia.- ' tion of all the difficulties against which they had to con tend. (Cheers.) He maintained that hitherto those duties' had been most efficiently performed by the Company, under the supervision of the Board of Control. It was said, Indeed, that a greater responsibility would be exacted under the new system. Now his impression was that the House of Commons would not, could not, and ought not to attempt to exercise' the control now exercised over the affairs of India. They might depend upon it that as soon as the present excitement had passed oven i their old apathy with reference to Indian affairs would return upon the House of Commons. The fact was, that when a Minister was backed up by a strong party he was no longer respon sible. He rather inclined to the opinion of Lord Metcalfe, that if over England was destined to lose India, it would be through the House of Commons. He did not think that a greater trust could be confided to man than the proper distribution of patronage ; and he had no doubt that feel ing was embedded in his mind from the admirable manner in which he had seen patronage exercised in India. Indeed, the patronage of India had been distributed by merit to an extent which had no parallel throughout the world. And were they not at that moment reaping the effects of the system in India? for what other system could have produced an equal number of men fitted to cope with a vast emergency ? (Hear, hear.) In making his ap pointments the Governor-General was checked by his council ; but they would lose that check when the control- ling power was handed over to the House of Commons. His great objection to the new measure was, as he candidly admitted, founded on the probable distribution of the patronage of India. With regard to the bill, he felt assured that at the present moment we were only on the threshold of oar difficulties. Standing out amongst these difficulties were the military and financial questions. He feared that the difficulties in the way of the Chancellor of the Exche quer would be much greater than he anticipated. People who had lent money and had entered into contracts with the company would look to them for payment, and they might object to have the liabilities which had been con tracted shifted upon other shoulders. He believed that the judgment of posterity had already been pronounced upon the proposed change. (Laughter.) What he meant to say was, that historians, foreign, English, and Ameri can, had spoken highly of the Eist India Company, and one had described it as a miracle of government. In con. elusion, the hon. member desired to express his thanks to the Government for paying him the compliment of nomi nating him to the proposed council. After such a step had been decided on ho had no alternative but to remain silent or speak out ; and he could only say, " Amiens Socrates, of hhiimise"xleferainend Lualna Plato, sed magic veritas." (Cheers.) , M r. It. J. R. CAMPBELL thought it due to the house, and he thought tha t in a experience country, to lay before them the result with him in thinking that for many years in India, in India, and had a s t isk their titled to be listened to t han those who possessed property in that country, were more en of the more intelligent . iproperty. po rt ion reiorpecrli o ta f yry. t he toi Tr n ithl a hlee t err i esv, others. It was the opinion that the time had life eand e first dut y Company had faile c d o r i n e th fo ;: ine c o b to a r n i g hm e: .:h a s s tepe t trt hi r e n vaewwdeteehrttaiehre the protection of • ' who thought that as th pany the continuane o '2 captured at Delhi and in continuing their rul enther places i was not likely to be the and r s-or-n authority, as evinced the ease. The sh wanting was to establish that autho ' already done much in by • presence restoring cont. I the people of India had been told ei ght pEoapsutllantidoina treasures othersasceuw,:ormatle was g she ; but that e a n d :c o w ! a h o n e f her n a e l troops, t Q h ul a t ° e had w n's in its roality. If the army was sent out to Calcutta, that agho'nfwbsebn company has ceased, and that of the hadQueeerau ca ",,,, -6 menced, there would be now no necessity for theloa - — O . 10,000,0001. Within the last 20 years the territory ofnthef country and the native troops had been doubled, whereas the a umber of European troops had not been inlreare , l, nd the most important fortresses had been left with an insUfficitnt Luropeau guard. The lion. and gallant mem her for Aberdeen was chairman of the company at the time that the troops were returning from the Crimea, but he did not avail himself of the services of any of them, al though they were much required in India, while Govern ment, with more prudence, sent out 21,000 men, and also the German Legion, to the Colonies. Had 10,000 or 12,000 men been sent to India we would have been spared the recent disasters. With respect to the colonisation of India, notwithstanding that we have had possession of India for 100 years, there were not 10,000 European settlers in the whole Peninsula, although there were parts of it, especially the country around Simlah, well adapted for colonisation ; and there was a marked contrast in the fide lity of the natives to the independent settlers and to the servants of the company. The company has laid claim to great improvements, but they had been forced upon them by public opinion, and so unskilfully did they manage financial matters that the rate of exchange with India increased i from 6 to 12 per cent., involving a loss of from 200,00: /. to 300,000/. to the revenues of India. He would like to know what steps had been taken since 1837 to improve the means of communication in Lower Bengal? (Hear.) Sir E. B. LYTTON said the right hon. gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty had complained that his hon. friend the member for Huntingdon (Mr. T. Baring) should have rested his objection to this bill on the ground of time. With regard to the measure itself, which he (Sir E. B. Lyttton) was nob disposed to discuss at any length, he thought it audacious, incomplete, and ill-considered. It was audacious, inasmuch as it affected the conversion of an administrative body, which, whatever might be its faults, provided a cheek for every hasty or unwise proposition on the part of the Imperial Government. It was ineorn plate, aait did not afford a single restraint upon the preci pitate or despotic enactments. It was ill-considered, as upon so simple a point as the mere number of the council it preposed to create, there was not a single gentleman practically acquainted with the affairs of India who would not tell them that that number was preposterous and inade quate to get through the amount of business which would fall to its share. It was ill-considered, because the Govern ment asserted, and no doubt believed, that it would in crease their patronage. The patronage by the Minister would be enormously increased, and in that direction which would be peculiarly dangerous in that house. The noble lord at the head of the Government said that there was always a cry that this was not the right time for change. The noble lord was unquestionably the highest authority of any man living as to the right time for changing. (Cheers and laughter.) He (Sir E. B. Lytton) was surprised that so acute a statesman could not distinguish between a hollow cry and that which was real and true. With regard to the question of delay, what was the noble lord's reply to the noble lord the member for London with regard to the Reform Bill 1 The noble lord said it was not the right time, because of the war with Russia, and now the noble lord said this was the time for dealing with India now that we were at war there. He (Sir B. Lytton) objected to legislate for India in a time of war. We should not always be at war in India, although, if it depended on the (noble viscount, we always might be. (Cheers.) With regard to the proposed council board it would be composed of young men, who would be imbued with a lively sense of further promotion in the hands of the Minister of the day. The next two months might determine our peaceful occupation of India, and how was it that the noble lord proposed to pass those two months ? Why, by listening to diatribes against the rapacity of the East India Company —diatribes that would be published from one end of India It o the other. What would the Orientals say when they read them? The Orientals were always averse to change, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer told them that our empire in India had been acquired by unparalleled rapacity and violence. How would the natives of India construe such language when the time came for treaty with the re bels ? Mr. Samuel, in his despatch which had been laid before the house, stated that everything that appeared in the English papers that could be construed into being favourable to the rebels was easily translated and dissemi neted. During the long course of the noble lord's career did it ever occur to him until now that there was evil in the system of double government for India? The noble lord now said that more responsibility was required. Bat what said the First Lord of the Admiralty ? He declared that when he was President of the Board of Control his authority was as absolute as that as the Secretary for the Colonies or any other secretary. What particular had the company foiled the Government in their endeavour to put down the rebellion. On the contrary, had not the com pany supported the Government in every particular, and yet this was the time selectel to destroy that company and fix upon it the opprobrium of dismissal. And that was by a Government which had plunged the country into a war with China, of which no one could see the end, and few could see the object. (Cheers.) This was the time so!ected to crnoh that body svh;-...1s h-.d proved itself so stanch, and which was now surrounded by so many difficulties. The First Lord of the Admiralty hat dwelt upon the advantage of establishing the name of the Queen in India. No doubt that would be a great advan tage, but nothing could be more obvious than that the com pany were then trustees of the Crown, now all the acts had to be ratified by a Minister of the Crown. So that if they framed an act to-morrow that the Government should be carried on in the name of the Queen, that would not alter the relative position of the Board of Control anti the company. Admitting some of the inconveniences of the existing system, could they not remedy those inconve niences without destroying the company ? But, supposing that the company ought to be destroyed, and even that this was the right time to destroy it, was that a reason why they should accept the proposition of the Govern ment ? It was held that, in the council that was to be created, they would be enabled to appoint some of the most efficient of the Court of Directors, and yet it was proposed to destroy that company. lie doubted, indeed, whether the Court of Directors would consent to be nomi nees. The right hon. gentleman the Secretary of the Board of Control shook his head. He (Sir E. B. Lytton) did not think there was much in it, but he shook it. (Laughter.) The noble lord at the head of the Govern mont desired the absolute authority to be placed in the Crown, What would be the position of the House of Com. mons then? If any young member were to ask a question as to what were the intentions of Scindia, or what was the meaning of Holkar, the reply might be that, without meaning anything personal, the question was an extremely absurd one. (Laughter.) Before that house could make themselves competent to judge with discrimination of an Oriental policy they must lama to orientaliso themselves. They might pass a law which they might think was' ex tremely mild and conciliatory to the Ilindoo, and yet that Hind3o might consider it the most exquisite torture that could be inflicted, because its penalty might be c irriod into the next world. Hitherto the discussion in Paths. mont on India had been productive of good, because they seldom acquired the warmth and colouring of party. Pees this law and it would cease to be so. Pass this bill and he believed that they would never actively interfere with the affairs of India unless in the interest of party to serve some Government, or, perhaps , to imitate the example of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to cast a stain upon some illustrious name. This was not the moment to legislate, but to arm. (Cheers.) This was the moment when they should not damp the ardour of their countrymen as they had been doing by stigmatising their own rule as that of perfidy and rapine. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had told them that the empire of India was no boon to England. Whatever opinions might be hold with regard to that empire which had passed through the perils of a mutinous army was now to be exposed to the much more clangorous ordeal of an organised favouritism and jobbing. Tit.t empire was won by the valour and intellect of the misuse classes, and it was for the members of that house who avowed themselves the representatives of that class now to determine whether they would allow that empire to be governed by official imbecility and miuisteri tl t . , corrup ioa. ( Cheers.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The hon. baronet who just sat down added, by his eloquent speech, another illustra tion of the strange nature of this debate. The hon. gen tleman the member fur Huntingdon, who moved the amendment, says that this is not a time to legislate for India, and, in enforcing his views with his usual ability, Confined himself to the topic of his own resolution. Now I must say fairly, that if he had gone into the Cabinet with his reasons, and was successful in persuading the Minis. tern of the Crown that it would be better to dofer for another year the consideration of the Indian question, when they could enter upon it with more knowl3dee and calmer minds, the house would sit down content. But the position of the question now is, that the Minieters of the Crown having proposed the question, and having had now three night's debate upon it, during which very fe,v speakers urged his views, it was entirely a different mat ter. The sueporters of the hon. gentleman's motion urged. that the present form of the government of India was not very desirable, that however it should be kept as nearly as possible to the form in which it now exists, and that the greatest danger may be apprehended if any great altera tion took place. The question ' then, was, w h a t w ill b e its position if the house sho u lda4ree with the hon mem ber for Huntingdon ? Will the house, or anybody out of the house, be satisfied if no alteration should take place ; would it be wise to leave the question in such a position ; and would there not be the greatest doubt,, both here and in India, as to the moaning of the resolution proposed ? Would net all men's minds be turned to the question, whether the House of Commons meant to alter the govern ment of India, or whether it would be deferred tor this year, or many years to come? I could understand a nee lotion come to by the house that they were content with the government of India—l could understand the wiselme of carrying out that resolution, if the noble lord at the head of the Government had leave to bring in a bill. But I cannot see the wisdom of adopting a proceeding by which the whole question will be bound up and allowed to remain in suspense and deubt for another year, when no man could see what would be the issue of our delibera tions ? I hope, therefore, the house will net agree to the motion of the hon. gentleman, the member fur Hunting; don. (Hear.) I confess, however, that I am not much struck with the statement, however plausible, that legisla tion wil.bs:useless and dangerous while the revolt continues in India. We legislated for Catholic Emancipation when Ireland was on the verge of a civil war ; we legislated for reform when the whole country was in a state of tumult and confusion • and on the corn l aws w h en th e pu bli c m i n i was far from being tranquil. The house has at all times been equal to any crisis that may arise. It has always le gislated with prudence and wisdom, and proved itself equal to the emergency. I will,thereiore, sir, n ow ; a dd ress myse lf to the question really before the house, whether we should or should not (make a change in the government of India. I think we may conclude, if it should be the opinion of the house to carry the resolution, that, setting aside the pro posal of the Government, the whole question will remain in abeyance for some time to come. What is the position of the East India Company ? I am quite ready to admit their merits, that they accomplished great things, and con ferred lasting benefits on the country. I remember hearing a gentleman say, who went through all the vicissitudes of the first French revolution, that men always guarded against the dangers which were past and never to what ars to come. Now, what is our present position with regard to the East India Company ? It is quite true, though the Chancellor of the Exchequer was much blamed for saying so, that all parties in the house were indignant at the ag greseione made in India, and carried on by the then Go vernor-General. Mr Dnndas brought the question on, and after a three hours' speech, moved that Mr. Hastings be recalled. The directors of the Company, however, thought one way, and the proprietors another—the whole thing was in confusion, and Mr. Hastings remained. Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox then endeavoured to remedy the evil, and it was at lest agreed on that the power of appointing the Governor-Gen era l s h ou ld b e ves t e d i n th e Crown, as an effectual check to the directors and proprietors. From 1734 to the present day there was no reason to complain of the aggressions of Governors-General. The danger they heti I %,: e cio, tv . Z a : m do e u e ll t d was dboe, fint therefore, t ly h a f t 0 sra precisely which they had in of monopoly. Tht with great politices.T. There be is another . regarded, naan.ly„, the a factory, and i n an part of the East India yonrdoatinco3sttoarpsp7lvo point of view in which this question may a y e a remedyrs ago. gradual loss of authority on the (gear, C o o t hun hear.)a:laceny. great and powerf I Company . 1.07 combined,hat the trade of the East, coupled They were formerly a v. They werhha pa t had, htl4 i f b n o cr fact, et u tin o in p ea o : if ; r ee 0.. 1 Influence having here a fort and they e