The Sun. — London, England, 1858-07-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNF and stating, in reply to hs correspondents in North Bay Company's Charter , and the trade of the company ; i contest the legality of the Hudson's Bay Cor t p d a o ny s America, that he considered it no part of his duty to rights ; and if they wishedt)do so they , Govern upon their own responsibility. the mu ' matter was one which concerned her Majesty's ent and that house, and they ought fully to consider the matter before they proceeded to colonisation. ° He said, " Tiaey,should surrender such portions of the terri tory as were claimed by Canada." Now that was beg . HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. ging the whole question. Why should such landa be Mr. ROEBUCK proceeded to bring forward his mos conceded to the Hudson's Bay Company ? By what tion respecting the position and privileges of the Fled- authority were they entitles to them ? It seemed to him son's Bay Company, He said that at that late period of to be a matter which concerned the whole empire, and the session he should not have felt justified itita i eingu a p t not to be confined to the Hudson's Bay Company nor Canada i Canada, were in ion of the their time with any question that wa s not of very gre he manage it. The real question was, w hether the Hudson's whole of n the vast articular territory, she would p n os ot sess be able to importance, but the interests of t he em p ire were, be, Erred, deeply concerned with that one which he was Bay Company's door was to be closed to the rest of the world, or whether it was to be thrown open to the rest talent to introduce, and he thought it therefore desirable that an understanding should be come to between the of her Majesty's subjects. The noble lord read, also, a government and the house on the subject. At present letter from Mr. Shepherd, referring to the Hudson's . Ray Company's advantagesin th • trade in furs and various their - the continent of America was thus divided: the southern other commodities, and having urged that those exclu d most important belonged to the United States ; the sive advantages in trade operated with them to exclude territory pf England stretched from the Atlantic to the the rest of her Majesty's subjects from any participation Pac ifi c , an d at the western point was a small portion be- in them, he said it seemed to him that her Majettr t s e G in o : longing to RUssia. We had originally planted 13 col°. vern . ment and e theHo u u b s . e ee o t f Commons mear had He a wou g ld, if the i d ea i n America; which had subsequently become Inds- housey e strg are t h whole would allow him, state how the case stood. But an d u p to' present time had increased to 35 pendent, before he did that he begged to remark, that he had or 36 independent sstates, and was becoming a power very seldom, out of that house, heard Hudson's Bay which unless England established a counterpoise, would mentioned, without hearing also the terms " sterile, bar he believed oversbado w, not only America, but the ren, unfit for colonisation." Now that was an erroneou s whole earth. In his opin 'log the most successful counter- i m pression. (Hear.) It might be true, and no doubt poise would be a systemaCc plan of colonisation carried wog, with respect to some districts, but comparatively on in the district to which he was about to call the at- only of a very small portion. But it was equelly true tention of the house. But we' bad been extremely negli- that 500,000 square miles of the territory of the corn gent on the subject of colonisation in our American pus- pany presented as valuable a tract for colonisation as sessions. Nova Scotia, New B r u n ewick, and Lower any other portion of her Majesty's dominions. Mean) Canada were colonised when We teek possession, but That was the nature of the land eastward of the Rocky since then we bad not created a single colony. In the Mountains—land abounding in rich prairies, and inter meantime the Americans had increased from 13 to 36 sected by great and navigable lakes and rivers. His hon. states, and their population from threemillierns to thirty and learned friend did not allude to the water comma millions, whil e we h a d r emained idle and done' nothing nication, which presented the greatest advantages to createa cou n t er p o i se . The hon. and learned m ember for aiding in facilitating the trade and produce of the 'proceeded to state the circumstances under which the country. A great ship canal had been constructed, and Hadson's Bay Company had acquired their present pri- to encourage those whose enterprise led them to engage vileges. In the reign of Charles 11. certain persons ob- ,in the work, 170,000 acres of land had been sot aside, tained from the Crown the exclusive prieilege of trading w hich were distributed in portions to them as they pro within a territory commencing at Hudson's Straits, al- greased. The sale of those lands by the parties proved though at the very time the said territory belonged to most productive i • and he should not think it at all diffi ' - • France, whose dominion at that time extended to the cult to set aside large tracts of land on each side of any North Pole. In 1670 the charter was granted con- great railroad for distribution amongst those who might firming them in all their privileges, "in all countries be engaged in the enterprise. (Hear, hear.) He hoped 'within the straits of Hudson's Bay, which were the day was not distant when the scheme which his hon. not at the time possessed by any other subjects of hie'a and learned friend had shadowed out would be carried Majesty or by the subjects of any other Christian state.' into effect. He would, in a very few words, call atten- For many years the 11 ndson'is Bay Company did nothing, tion to the claims of the Hudson's Bay Company. It but an act of Parliament was passed giving them for a would not be denied that no grant could be valid, if the certain term the came rights as were contained in the grantor had not the right to grant it ; and he thought charter, and when that act expired, all rights would ex- he could prove that in the reign of Charles 11. this pire on the side of the company. When Canada came country bad no right to make the grant to the Hudson's into the possession of the English the enterprising spirit Bay Company. He thought he could prove that the land of the new settlers penetrated the preserves of the Hud- was at the time the property of another Christian people, son's Bay Company in search of peltries, and the Hud- the subjects of another realm. The company's charter son's Bay Company, under Lord Selkirk, actually waged e xpressly used the words—" All lands that might be in war against the North-Western Company, when great possession of theßritish Crown at the time of the grant." battles were fought, and much military glory achieved N o w, supposing that to be valid, the treaty of Ryswick on both sides. However, at last a very astute and clear- at once and for ever upset it. He wished to act as fairly headed man interfered—he meant the right hon. mem- as he possibly could towards the Hudron's Bay Com ber for Coventry—who said to the belligerents, "You p an y ; but it had been said that the property had been are fighting useless battles, had you not better unite." inviolably secured by the grant in the hands of the corn -They did unite, and by uniting had cheated the public. pany. (Hear.) In 1598, a considerable number of years lA. laugh.) Re did not wish to say a word against the before the charter was granted, Henry IV., of France, Hudson's Bay Company, who probably had only managed made M. Le Roux Lieutenant-Governor of the terri their territory as other men, in similar circumstances,. tory ; and a French writer, so early as 1511, described would have done, but he wished to call th e a tt en ti on of the country, indicating possession. The noble viscount, . the house to the circumstances u n d er w hi c h th ey held it, baying traced the history of the company and the char and the manner in- which these circumstances bore on ter with great minuteness of detail from the year 1670 the national interest. The Hudson's Bay Company was down to 1713, contended that the Crown had no right to a far company, and wished to preserve their territory as grant the charter to the company, the territory indisput a home for the wild fur-bearing animals, and their inte- ably belonging to France, and not to England. When it rest was to keep the footsteps of man away as long as became known in France that the British had for the possible. In such a state of things, he appealed to the first time established themselves on the shores of Hud- House of Commons to put an end t o this system of seclu- son's Bay, orders were given to oust them at all sion, and to open up this vast territory to enterprise and hazards. It was not until the year 1713 that England colonisation. It might be urged that the rights of the became indisputably possessed of the territory, the Hud- Hudson's Bay Company interfered. (Hear.) He denied son ' s B a y Company never, until that period, attemptin g that they had any rights ; but even if they had, the to interfere with the French trader. The rights of the house knew how to deal with them. The first resolution Hudson's Bay Company were derived from their mono he should move, therefore, was, "That the privileges of poly of trade, which was granted by the pretended char the Hudson's Bay Company, which are a bout to expire, ter, and from their licence of occupation for 21 years, ought not to b e meowe d.. Th ese pr i v il eges , h e ought to which would expire next year. With the latter he bad explain, were held, not under the charter, but under nothing to say. Supposing the charter to be valid, the an act of Parliament which would expirenext year, and subject of the monopoly of trade Xas open to certain the time was most favourable for the inauguration of a legal objections, and in support of this opinion he quoted from the writings of Blackstone and other eminent au new system. The Secretary of State for the Colonies had brought iu a bill to establish a British colony beyond the thorities. Hudson's Bay was su bj ect to the same laws Rocky Mountains, and it was our boast that we could which governed other coloni es o f her Majesty's domi load goods in London and unload them at the western nuns at that time. Monopoly was considered illegal by end of Lake Superior without transhipment. This had the E ngl i sh law, and it was manifest that Charles II in been done by rendering the S. Lawrence navigable for grant i ng an exclusive right to trade, granted that which " great ships by the construction of a canal which avoided was not his. An exclusive licence to trade meant an ex tbe rapids. Thus they were further across the continent elusive licence to possess the lives, labour, and liberty of of America than the Americans themselves. From all the people of that district. They had heard a great Halifax to Lake Superior, thence to the Rocky Moms- d ea l a b out the colonising spirit of the Hudson's Bay tains, and to the new colony which the right hon. gen- Company, but he believed it had been much exaggerated. Oman (Sir E. B. Lytton) was about to form on the Re thanked the house for having so patiently heard him. Western coast of America, and so by steam to Yarcou- and he desired to conciuje his s:-.t.,:nient in the inealor . - ver's Island, a direct communication would be opened up able words of a Canadian legislator—" This was the from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and from Europe across madness of monopoly. Surely the Hudson's Bay the continent of America to India and China. That was Company did not expect, by their effete and stupid a grand idea' ' and the colonial minister who should carry c h arter , b e i t r igh t or wrong , to s h ut up for ever the it out would accomplish a greater thing than any of his route of the great West." In that sentiment he fully predecessors. He would open up the means of carrying agreed. Nothing could he better expressed. The English civilisation to the whole of th a t vas t continent monopoly of the Hudson's Bay Company could no and to the eastern world. He said English civilisation, lon ge r be continued, if the people of England were because he wished the civilisation of England to be corn- only awakened to the importance of the subject. He pared with that of America. The c i v ili s atio n o f England trusted that the eyes of the public would be opened was higher than that of America—and why I Because to this great question, and that her Majesty's Ministers the English people were free from the infernal blot of would not be backward in acting en the hints they slavery. It was the duty of every man who wished well had got that evening. to his race and desired the approbation of mankind to Mr. GLiDSTONE said he believed ho only expressed forward this object. What, it might be asked, did he wish 1 He wished the right hoc, gentleman would im- the unanimous feeling of the house, when be expressed mediately take steps to ascertain what were the legal the great interest with which he had listened to the dis rights of the Hudson's Bay Company, in order that cussion. (hear.) The bon. and learned member for Shef when they were ascertained, they might be compensated field was a veteran in the cause. On this and on other -r---for the company must no ;longer be allowed to stand subjects connected with British North America in the way of the colonial government, and to be set up as a barrier to the progress of civilisation. Having con- he had been the expositor of early truths, peneated the company, then he would have Government most of which had attained to realisation, and plant a colony, extending from the western shores of Lake he (Mr. Gladstone) was convinced that the sub. Superior to the Rocky Mountains, to join with the colony stance of the history which the hon. and learned mem to be established on the western side of the continent on her had given, and tile opinions he had expressed, were the shores of the Pacific, and complete the chain of British colonisationfrom Halifax to 'Vancouver's Island. He en• so sound and just that they must become the bases of treated there might be no delay in the matter, for delay the policy of this country ; and, as a veteran in th e would create difficulties. Minnesota would send her cause, he was sure the hon. and learned gentleman must hordes, and we should have to fight our battles over have witnessed with pleasure the accession to that cause again—the battles which some years ago we had to wage that night of one who, though a novice in years, was yet upon the eastern shores. Taking as much of the Hudson's in knowledge and accomplishments a master of the subject Bay Company's land as was compatible for the purpose (Hear, hear.) If be said no more in reference to the of colonisation, he would erect it at once into a colony, speech of the noble viscount it was only because th a t He would bring in a bill to create a new l aw o f colonii-a- noble lord had so completely mastered the subject that tion, and at once form colonies in accordance with it. it would be p-esumptuous in him (31r. Gladstone) to be And when he said this he contemplated not only North profuse in compliments to one who was so much hi s America, but South Australia and South Af r i ca . The superior. The hon, and learned gentleman divided his same law of colonisation should be applicable to all. If argument iota three propositions. He urged that the they carried that out they would make an English natio n privileges of the Hudson's Bay Company, about to ex of Australia, an English nation of the south paint of the p f ire, ought not to be renewed ; that the legal validity African continent, and an English nation of North Ame rica. If this scheme was carried out, the English tongue, t o he t i h r e e e h x e c r l t u er siv e e u r h ig t h t t o s be cl e ai t med by the determined company under the Eoglish law, the English religion, and English lite-by process of law ; and that g so much of the territory hitherto held rature would become predominant in the world, and he , the compan that would tend to the happiness of mankind. He said, . 1 yas might be needed for the ur ose of colonisation ought witho t dela i: l; f t t o he be re . su t m p e .t d p by the Government of this country . without fear of contradiction, that the English nation to him that the most impor tent wa s s e t r e m s ec i on s d eem l e n d was the greatest nation of the earth, and the more the Znglish name, English institutione, and English liters - point of fact, the first and third ro osition s s, to a tura were spread over the various countries of the . world siderable extent, were not only connected withbut co d n e . ' the more should we have contributed to the ha fuses of pendent upon it. The hon. and learnedgentleman had at large, and perfected that work which in pro- pointed out that much of the conduct of the Hudson's iidence of God was entrusted to U. He had heard it Bay Company with reference to the resumpt . cf the intimated that his not was to be met by the previous land in their territory , on which must depend tion issue question, but he could scarcely believe it. The previous of the investigation which he recommended, was li question was a not very dignified way tifiable ; and no one could have listened to the speech nu o B f inconvenient motion, the truth of which could not be of getting rid of an the noble viscount without perceiving that this was a very denied. It was i n e ff ect saying we admit the trut h o f serious matter . (H ear, hear.) Th e re was a large p the proposition, but thi s i s not the time for bringing it tion of the (Artie with regard to th e c h aracter of which forward. But what was th e reason why they ought not we had been systematically kept in the dark —(hear,hear) now to proceed with this p r i nc ipl e o f co l on i sation, if that by those whose interests alone were concerned in preser v principle were correct ? His first proposition was that the ins that ignorance. Take only one proof of that assertion. privileges of the Hudson's Bay Company, a b ou t to ex - Let any one read the interesting work of Governor Simp. pine, ought not to be renewed. Did they admit that ?If son—.his gi Voyage round the World"—written without not, why not say so—why meet it with the previous ques- a y special reference to the Hudson's Bay Comp an y, an d h Li on ? He would not believe until he heard it th a t hi s gives a glowing description of the right hon. f r i en d wou ld mee t so i n di spu t a bl e a proposi- n ehvill find that he tiou by the previous question—much less could he be - capabilities, both agricultural and for purposes of colo lieve Maths, would oppose it. If they did not intend to' nisation, of much of the territory of the Hudson's Bay renew-the privileges of the Huisort'a Bay Company it Colonial Secretary, moved for Company. Well, last year the right hon. gentleman the was only fair that the company should have warning. lf member for Taunton, then. . inquire into the affairs of his right hon. friend now refused to give that warning,g a committee of the house to by accedieg to the second proposition, "That the legal involved the rights the Hudson's Bay Company, and before that committee validity of the exclusive rights claimed by the Hudson's questions were raised which seriously of the compa n y, an d G overnor Simpson was called as a Bay Company under their charter ought at once to b e determined by process of law," the Hudson's Bay Cons- witness. The hon. and learned member for Sheffield then .. quoted to him the statements with regard to the capabi pany would not perhaps expect that next spring the right , ht i o3 of change came hon. gentleman would bring in a bill to renew their privi- the territory of that country ; but a h ov er t h h t e spirit of his dream, and be reported that allwo leges, but they would say he was a cowardly Minister to settle in those inhospitable regions would .be from whom something might be squeezed. Then as to racked with fogs and cold; and when one of the commit the last proposition " That so much of the territory tee with an inconvenient curiosite, ferreted out his book, hitherto held b the Hudson's Bay Company as may be the' Governor, although not without considerable inge needed for the y purpose of colonisation ought without, unity, was placed in great difficulty when be attempted J delay to be resumed by the Government of this country,' to reconcile the two accounts, when before the commit- would they deny that ? And if not, why object to de- tee he wished to prove that it was nn use to try to pluck elate it'd In the few words he bad e and lay bare - a company which had nothing to lose. It ventured to offer h bad rather shadowed forth the future of England than referred to the past history of this was undoubted that a large portion of that territory was rit E ory. He had brought no charge against the Hudson'st admirably adapted for colonisation, and it was equally Company, certain that the Hudson's Bay Company was the enemy nor had be intended to do so , his object being ay merely to state the grounds upon which he founded the resolutions hof colonisation. All its views, habits, purposes, and ar he now placed in the hands of the chair. Therangements were not directed to colanieation, but to ob. learned gentleman concluded by moving the followingut'.and jects which required that colonisation should be kept off. resolutions :—" 1. That the privileges of the Hudson's If it was necessary in Scotland, in order to create a deer Bay Company, about to expire, ought not to be renewed, park, to clear the sheep from the region, so in the Hud 2. That the legal validity of the exclusive rights claimed son's Bay territory, in order to the cerrying on of the by the Hudson's Bay Company, under their charter,fur trade, itwasindispensable that all coloeisa.tion should be k e pt off their unyielding region. His noble frie n d ought at once to be determined by process of law, 3. That so much of the territory hitherto held by the had shown that the rights of the Hudson's Bay Com• pany to th e i r territory were at least dou b tful. It was at as may be needed for the pur l/prison's Bay Company pose of colonisation ought wi t h out least doubtful whether, w h en th e i r c h ar ter was granted, by the Government of this cou ntr y .' lelay to be resumed the ter r it ory d id not belong to France. The hon. and Lord BURY, in seconding the resolutions, said this learned mem b er for Sheald had shown that in the time of Willi am 111, the charter depended on only the interests and ex- ri cemetees's which might have ceased i e se in re r n . wail a questio n i nvo l v ing not with the Indines, but the business of the teesion of their colonial territory, but which involved, yehrs.te trade exclusive licence was given to the company theirom p c a h n e y rt h e a r d been to exclude all trade, also, Imperial interests. It was now time that the Go- only Hudson's on B e a Tenement should do something in this matter, because and yet when y His i t e ra n d e i b n l g e the Hudson's Bay l Indians was not only contemplated,was give n hot t trade e with the had written friend bad said, Company's Charter, as his learned was about to expire. He hoped the also, and the trade in minerals especially. in theirnetetrbreirtorhyeutehle mode H of I f tN . o thoroughfare;" and Government would not, in dealing with the question, 1 friend said that the Hudson's Bay Company voincide with the late 'Government. (" Hear, hear," ' up by. some stentorian voice, and much laughter.) He ! admission except ,s meant not to say anything offensive.' He had before him ; pany had taken care esp, &ally to exclude all admission a letter written by Mr. Merrivale, who had been secre- ' which was on business. (Hear,) His noble friend was tart' to the colones. The noble lord h ere read the letter, I sight when he said that there had been no chan g e in that lated renewal of the Hdson's 'forting to the contemP u respect, and that it was essentially a part of the under. _noble and gallant °facer would appear in this evening's Oazette. —: --- Sir W. FRASER asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he would consider some plan for remov ing the wall between Burlington House and Piccadilly; and for giving the public the advantage of the ground in the front and rear of that building? Lord J. MANNERS was unable then to give a posi tive answer to the bon. and learned gentleman's ques tion. would be • taking of the company that all human beings, neon• nected with themselves, should be excluded from their territory. This was a most interesting question, and ; though it touched a country much of which was inhos- ; pitab it. Althoughleanduninhab law anditable,t romanceherewas m were not ,: uchofromaanic about sly connected, yet when you turned from the people of those regions and the lives they led to the law under which they were placed, there never could be a more serious or a more interesting question. There was one other point in connection with the charter of the company to which he wished to allude. At present the Hudson's Bay Com pany were in possession, by virtue of their charter, of a territory extending from the sources of the Saskatchewan river, a thonsand miles, to the foot of the Rocky Moun tains. If you admitted the right they claimed by virtue of their charter and their exclusive right of trading, it was still doubtful, looking to the language of the char. ter, whether it was intended to give the Hudson's Bay Company that vast tract of territory, and whether the land granted to them was not that on the bay, and on the lakes and rivers in the immediate neighbourhood of the bay. The Hudson's Bay Company did not at first possess themselves of this tract of land extending to the Rocky Mountaine, but for 100 years they departed a very little from the bay; and they only spread themselves over that vast territory when they formed their fortunate coalition with the right hon. gentleman the member for Coventry. (Hear.) It would appear that serious ques tions in point of law had been raised against the privi leges and rights exercised by the Hudson's Bay Corn- Ipony, and the opinions of legal authorities had been taken —he meant the opinions of counsel, not any judi cial decision—a-c ong others those of Lord Brougham, Mr, Sergeant Spankie, and Sir Arthur Pigott, which bone out the opinions which had been expressed in that debate. It was said that there was some hardship in raising this question at the present time ; that the com pany had been in possession of these rights for nearly two centuries, and though the grant to them might have been originally wrong, yet it had gradually inured and hard ened in'.o right by the lapse of time. That was not a view which the House of Commons had as yet consented to recognise, for in 1849 the House of Commons voted an address to the Crown praying that legal steps might be taken to test the velidity of the rights of the com pany. He (Mr. Gladstone) moved the address in the hoase, and he thought that the phrase " legal steps" meant a legal process in an adequate court of law, ac cording to the good old constitutional custom which had existed for 200 years, when companies were found in possession of rights which were hostile to the public in terests, that those rights were tried in the courts of law, in which the companies were quite oompetent to defend themselves. But the noble earl the Secretary for the Colo nies understood the address in a different sense, and instead of ceusingjudicial process to be adopted, contented himself with obtaining from the company a statement of their claims—ex parte of course—and on that ex parte state ment he 'obtained the opinion of the law officers of the Crown, who stated that in the case laid before them they saw no reason to question the rights of the company ; and then it was intimated to a young man who was struggling to educatehimself in theUnivereity of Glasgow that it was at his option, as a private individual, to try the question of the rights of the company. (Hear, hear.) It should, perhaps, be stated that the company never showed any disinclination to submit their claims tojadi cial decision in a court of law. He confessed it appeared to him that there was a great deal of error iu the notion that the posses.done of the company were consecrated by time. It was a mistake to suppose that the flourishing monopoly which we now saw was the product of the charter of Charles IL For 150 years after that charter was granted this body dragged on a feeble and spiritless existence. The present flourishing monopoly was not the child of the charter of Charles 11., but it was the child of one who understood his business, the right lion. gentle man the member for Coventry—(hear, hear)—whose ab sence on this occasion they must all regret, for he should have been present to have received the honours he had gained. (Hear, hear.) But in admitting that you at once stripped the company of its character fir antiquity, and ' gave it a character somewhat of modernism. The pos sessions of the company as they now stood were recent possessions. No one could hold that there was any hardship in taking steps to test the right of the company, although care should be taken with regard to the mode in which you proceeded. If the company had rights, as the hon. and learned member for Sheffield had said, they would not be deprived of them, except on compen sation awarded to them. It might also appear that although the company had no great rights in point of law, in pciat of equity there were grounds for a liberal treatment of their claims, and there might be a neces sity for some intermediate mode of dealing with this question ; nor must it be supposed that t . sose who wished for a legal investigation of this question wished t 3 deal hardly with those who were connected with the company, and who may have invested their property in its undertakings, and who ought to be fairly dealt with. But it was clear that the British public had rights in this matter. He did not now say that if we were to colonise this territory our colonisation was to proceed direct from this country, or whether we should recognise Canada as the medium for carrying out that object, That was an important question, and one which he would leave to the consideration of the responsible Ministers of the Crown. But without inquiring whether Canada or this country was to under take the duty of founding this new colony, yet he mie'it that thi; csueni had t i ghts iu tee matter, and that the nece - say of opening this field of enterprise imposed duties upon us at home. However leniently we might be inclined to deal witty the com• pany, we must not allow this enormous obstruction on the road to a great part of the earth, possessed of such vast capabilitieo, to remain until we had ascertained that strict law stood in the way of its removal. (Hear.) He came now to the last point which he wished to con sider, and that wan, what course was to be token on the present occasion. He was sure the lion. and learned gentleman and the noble viscount would be sati , fied with the effect of their speeches in the house, and that they would feel that a great deal had been done towards esta blishing their case. (Hear, hears) He (air. Gladstone) would not be suspected of want of stoupatby with the mover and seconder of this motion, if he suggested that they would do well to leave the question in the hands of the Government. They had heard the speeches of the mover and seconder of the motion, and they would re ceive, from what had passed that night, great assistance towards determining the course they should take. If the house was to go to a division now, it would tend to create a f sloe impression out of doors, and therefore he should be gratified if the hon. and learned gentleman, having listened to the statement of t'ee Minister of the Crown on the subject—unless that statement was en tirely hostile to his views—would leave it in the hands of the Government to deal with this important question. (Cheers.) Mr. LABOUCHERE said that, when in office, he gave this question a great deal of consideration, and had moved for a committee on the subject. The right hon. gentleman who had just spoken seemed to think that the validity of the charter woo the main question to be considered, but that was not the opinion of the members of that committee, or even of the right hon. gentleman himself at the time. On the contrary, he thought he might say that, almost without exception, it was consi dered expedient to maintain the monopoly of the Hud son's Bay Company. He knew that anything like a monopoly of trade was very unpopular, bat his duty was not to consider what was unpopular or popular, but what was right., It was necessary that those immense terri tories should be under the government of some body or other in order to prevent collisions between the native Indians and the adventurers who might otherwise flock to them. The incursion of white trappers and hunters upon a large scale would not only exterminate the wild animals by which the Indian trappers and hunters lived, but the Indians themselves in the course of a very fe w years, as had been the case in corresponding territories in the United States. (Hear.) In regard to the ques tion of the charter of the Hudson's Bay Company, he thought it would be a matter of great public convenience if the rights of the company under that charter could be definitively ascertained. For his part he would be glad to eee the whole of the charter done away with, and the whole of that part of the territory not under cultivation, but which was capable of it, colonised. More than 100 years ago the Government of that time were anxious to ascertain whether the charter was valid or not. They Jah refer redLord ay the eod3ni,at q h,n u zis e stfi s h t ea i l questi on to the law officers of the Crown, charter,dt considering d S we i er r nd F ao . Ryder hnoowt ltoh expressed the t advisable companyt h e ir untilfor e a r N n 1 a j 1 e est authoritativey' s G o v r nm j e u n d t g t in o k e m at a is e d an el y iv e e x r p e r d es o s n ord th e e r ease " Mr. ROEBUCK—Hear, hear, Mr. LABOUCUERE said he was anxioug, when in office, to have the point settled by a court of justice, and for this purpose be applied to Sir Richard 13athe1I and another eminent lawyer, and they told him in conversa tion that they would not recommend proceeding by qno warrant') against a company of this description. They did not think it right to raise at this period of time the question of the general va'idity of the charter, except so far as it related to the exclusion f rom t h e territory of persons acting in violation of th e regu l ations. After hiving consulted English and colonial lawyers, his (Hr. Labouchere's) opinion was that, so far as territorial rights were concerned, the charter was good, but that with respect to the territory for which they held a licence the Crown might interfere. And be it observed that all the land they held under a licence was far better in soil and climate and more adapted for colonisation, and the licence was never given except with the distinct reservation on the part of the Crown to establish colo nies to any extent. The bill now before the house with territory t o o o r f y o f f o r this. th 0 I b e t nweafist an f imperialrespect t o r i ,ht New to Caledonia i t o h this va mankind, and not to shut out any part of it , unless on grounds of poicy, from persons disposed to c;donise it. nia was He believed that the 11nd-on's My Company had acted humanely towards the natives. TLey had improved the condition of the Indian tribe?, given them a value in their own eyes, and made them better and tvelul men. would say, take away from tho Iludscn's Biy Corn ploy any part of the territory that you can colonise, but do nut throw these vast territories open to all comers. § . llCli - a — co - u - r;e - w - ould devalva on ber Ma .klty's Government a great amount of responsi bility. Upcn the whole, he thought the Hudson's Bay Company had answered its purposes, and that, with the restrictions he had suggested, it was entitled to a renewal of the charter. He could not advke the house to cut prematurely the knotty points suggested by the hon. and learned gentleman's resnlu• Cons. With regard to the first resolution, he (tr. La bouchere) suggested that the privileges granted to the Hudson's Bay Company should be continued. As to the second resolution, the law officers of the Crown had expressed an opinion different from that of the hon. and learned gentleman ; and as to the third resolution, that was a truism. Upon the whole, he thought it __,SD AY EVENING, JULY 21, 1858. much better to leave the whole matter to her -sty's Government than to adopt those resolutions. Sir E. B. LYTTON—Sir, it is with some reserve that approach the great and difficult questions involved in the resolutions of my hon. and learned friend. The Government, as yet, are in the condition of negotiators. Certain distinct propositions, as the right hon. gentle. man who spoke last told us, were made to Canada by the lett) Government with regard to any districts now covered by the charter of the Hudson's Bay Company which. she might desire for the purposes of settlement. And, 'whatever cause there may be to suppose that Canr,da will reject those proposals, still every motive of policy, as well as of respect to that great colony would make us desire that any other scheme for colonisation in that region may have her sympathy and concurrence, (Hear.) Still, Sir, I own that the probability that Canada will reject the proposals made to her is so noto rious, and the interests involved in this vast question are so great, that I cannot hesitate to state, at least, the general views by which I venture to think we ought to be guided. (Hear.) In glancing over the vast regions devoted to the fur trade, which are loosely said to be as large as Europe, the first thought of every intelligent Englishman must be that of humiliation and amaze. Is it possible that so great a segment of the earth, under the English sceptre, can have so long been abandoned as a desolate hunting ground for wandering savages and wild animals' I put aside, for a moment, excuses of roil and climate; it is always pre sumptuous to decide hastily between man and nature— to say what man may or may not do to conquer those obstacles of soil and climate which nature may raise against him. It is enough for us to cling to the grand principle that civilisation should be left to find its own voluntary channels; that we should not force it, but should take care not to obstruct it. (Hear, hear.) No one can deny that a trade which preserves wild animals and has a direct interest in excluding civilised men does obstruct civilisation, if it claims territorial rights in any district which civilised men are disposed to cultivate and inhabit. (Hear, hear.) The right hon, gentleman the member for the University of Oxford summed up the general evidence before our committee in the first two of a series of resolutions which he proposed to that com mittee ; first, that the country capable of colonisation should be withdrawn from the jurisdiction of the Hud son's Bay Company ; secondly, that the country in capable of coloeisationshould be left to that jurisdiction. In the two abstract principles ins olved to these propo sitions lies the readiest solution of the grave difficulties that beset the question ; it is the attempt of a practised statesman to effect a compromise by which civilisation may gain all it asks at present, and humanity may not only preserve to the savages scattered over frozen deserts, inaccessiLle to regular government, the trade on which they depend for existence, but guard them from the terrible demoralisation produced by rival bribes of ardent spirit, and the strife and bloodshed among themselves, or between themselves and the whites, which might fellow if the administrative machinery which it is the interest of a trading company to establish were destroyed before any effective substitute could be found. These are the reasons which will weigh upon the Government in considering the renewal of the licence. They will certainly not renew the licence over any part of the Indian territory which pro mises early settlement ; but they reserve for further de liberation whether they will renew it for a limited period over the more remote and northern regions, taking care that the Government shall have always the power to withdraw from that license any land that may be re quired for the uses of civilized life ; that they shall retain all the imperial rights to fisheries and mines, and what , ever may pall forth human industry and enterprise in pursuits more congenial to our age than that gloomy trade in the skins of animals which seems to carry us back to a date before the annals of history. Now, although the renewal of the license may possibly form a part of any fresh negotiations with the Hudson's: Bay Company for arrangements respecting the Red' River Settlement ; yet it ought in principle to be considered apart from such arrangements, and on its own merits,— in lands held as y e t oily b y the I ndiana does the exclu sive license or does it not work well for the Indians ? It is a question wholly distinct from that of the charter; the license gives none ef the territorial rights which the charter assumes—it involves no principle of compensa tion in case of any lands which colonists may require, and it ought to he regarded simply as an instrument by which the Government can effect that safeguard from broil and disorder which in so vast an f profitless a wil derness the Goverment is not able of itself to establish. But, whatever doubts may be entertained as to the eec nail proposition of the right hoc. gentleman the member for Oxford, that land incapable of colonisation should be left to the jurisdiction of the Hudson's Bay Company, no one can dispute the soundness of the first proposition, that the country capable of colonisation should be withdrawn from that jurisdic tion ; and turning our eyes from a trade which, unlike all other mm roe, re tli'R 1:r ~t:`;, eLLuip- Lion, but on the maintenance of the wilderness, it must cheer us to see already, in the great border lands of this hitherto inho pitable region, the opening prospect of civilised life. (Hear, hear.) Already, by the Pacific, Vancouver's Island has been added to the social commu nities of mankind. Already, in the large territory which extends west of the Rocky Mountains, from the Ameri can frontier up to the skirts of the Russia-a domains, we are laying the foundations of what may become, here after, a magnificent abode for the human race, and no .v eastward of the RockyMoen'ai n e, we are invited to see in the eettlement of the Red River, the nucleus rf anew colony, a rampart against any hostile inroads from the American frontier, and an essential arch, as it were, to that great viaduct by which we hope one day to connect the harbours of Vancouver with the Gulf of St. Law rence. This is the dietriet off, red to Canada, and I think my hon. and learned Weed has good reason to presume that Canada will decline the tack of forming it into a colony at her own responsibility and charge. If the an swer from Canada be unfavourable, we have two options —either to leave the district, as now, under the jurisdic tion of the Hudson's They Company, which nothing but absolute necessity should justily,or wtoilltpankoeditoninntto, one own hands and form a colon], which day constitute a confederate part of a great Canadian system, and which might meanwhile, perhaps, be admi nistered by a Government in concurrence with Canada. To this there have been two objections. The first is the presumed expense. This Ido not at present anticipate. All healthful colonies should be. self-supporting, and I agree with ley hon. and learned friend in the general theory he advances with so much eloquence and wisdom. Colonies will be self--supporting in proportion as you leave them to raise their own revenues under free institutions. The second objection is, that such a colony would not be I peopled by Canadians ; that, owing to the easier access from the American frontier, the majority of immigrants would be A mericans. This objection does not alarm me. In the first place, though the immigrants come from the American territory as the readiest access, it does not follow that they sh ould all be Americans. Probably large numbers of our own countrymen, especially the Scotch, would flock there, as well as Americans, and as fn. Americans, once settled as British colonists it is pro bable that they would soon identify their national feel ings and interests with the land in which they lived, and the conditions of the Imperial Government. (Hear, hear.) It has been so alrea ly in Canada. It would be so at Red River ; because all history tells us how soon neer, if at all of kindred race, take, as it were, the stamp and colour of the land in which they settle. We, in this country, are an instance of that troth. No less than 16 counties in tuffs kingdom were given up to the inninigra tion of the Danes, and probably the g rea t mass of the population in these counties, such as Yorkshire, Lin colnshire, Norfolk, are of Danish origin to this day. Yet in a very short tune they became as heartily English and as hostile to the Danes of the Baltic as the Angle-Saxons of Kent. Nay, even the Normans, despite their pride as a conquering race, despite the difference of language, became in the third generation as intensely English and anti-French in their national feelings as if they had been Saxon Thegne. In short, no matter where men come from, place them in ground covered by the Briti-h flag, overshadowed, though at a distance, by the mild British sceptre, and they will soon be British in sentiment and feeling. All that I say on this score is, do not, on account of such jealoueies and fears, obstruct cis ilisation. Here is land fit for settlement ; if civilised men will settle in it, let them. Never let us mind the difficulties of access, soil, or climate. Leave the difficulties to them. Nature and man will fight their own battle and make their own peace. With regard to the fitness of the place itseif for colonisation, I am contented to take the opinion of the Hudson's Bay Company themselves ; for, in a letter from Vie company to Lord Glentle, February 10, 1837, when s a o s i k l in a g nd for c a lim re a n t e e of th renewal licence,ofte he county o r I f fia settlement are favourable to colonisation ; that it was iatended that this settleme n t s h ou ld be peopled, by emi grants from Britain, and that the company hoped to th d e it R sa e i d d, River " t the establish in time a valuable export trade Irons thence to the mother country in wool, flax, tallow, and other agri cultural produce." Sanguine hopes 1 not realised since 1837 under the auspices of the company, but which may be more rapidly fulfilled w h en th e company withdraws from the place the shado w o f its chilling protection. (Hear.) With regard to the safety of a settlement at the Red River from all ordinary attacks that might be made on it from the American quarter, I have a most satis factory report from Sir W. Eyre, the lieutenant-general commanding the forces in British North America. He states that " the lied River settlement consists of about 8,000, of whom 2.000 are Irish, English, and Scotch ; the remaining 6,000 all mostly half-breeds. They are ge nerally good shots, skilled in the use of fire arms, and good horsemen. A local force or militia of at least 1,000 men could be easily organised and embodher." The bar racks are perfectly habitable, and the post defensible, except against heavy ordnaece, which it would be diffe cu tto bring np against it. Norway is the chief horse depot of the company —the position might be made im pregnable. All communication between Like Superior and the Rol River is aoss, according to Sir G. Simpson, impracticeld, for any body of troops. "A few indivi duals might go, but not any force. There i. , abundance of provisions in the country ; no want need be appre hended ; water is good, wood abundant. The climate is severe in winter, but healthy at all seasons." These few extracts may suffice to show that a settlement once established would be safe from danger from without. As regards the fur trade in this district, I need scarcely say, that if you take the land from the Hudson's Bay Company, the monopoly that goes with the land will expire. To attempt to maintain there the monopoly would beimpossibie, and only give rise to perpetual feuds. In fact, I must be pardoned if I say that there is good reason to believe that that monopoly has practically in a great m asure ec,ased to exist in those part. Major Seton reports from Fort Garry itself—" The Hud son's Bay Company have long since abandoned in prac• tico their pretensions to excloeive trade in this district and far beyond it." Captain Palliser writes word : "That monopoly there is unattainable now and for ever more ; that the people engaged in the illicit trade are in habitants of the Indian land, and born on its soil. Most of them half-breeds, they are British subjects, and what ever the rights of the Hudson's Bay Company under the charter, they think it a very hard case that they should be debarred from trading in the land of their birth. There appears to be a shadow of justice in this complaint ; but, just or not, the opposition exists, ant nothing short of ex tirpating the people engaged in it can ever stop it." Indeed, this report is so far confirmed by Mr. Shepherd himself, on the part of the Hudson's Bay Company, that he states, in a letter to the Colonial-office That the diversion of the fur trade is carried on by the inhabitants of the Red River settlement, who, regardless of the Hudson's Bay Company, conduct an illicit trade in spirituous liqoure and furs iu various parts of the country." I think, therefore, there can be no doubt that when the company yields the land it must resign the monopoly. It will be an after consideration by what regulations the trade should in that case be carried on so as to mair tain order and peace, and respect that considerate humanity which is due to the Indians. But now comes the diffi culty. The land we would thus dispose cf for colonisa tion is within the charter of the Hudson's Bay Company, and if that charter be valid, the land belongs to the com pany, but not the monopoly of tho trade, except as in cludes the right of oilvnerahip to keep others off the land. The law officers of the late Government, men of very high distinction, consider— " That the Crown cannot now, with justice, raise the question of the general validity of the chattel, but that on every legal principle the company's tee ritorial ownership of the lands granted. and the rights incident thereto, as, for example, the right of excluding from their country per sons acting in violation of their regul a ti ons , oug ht t o b e deemed valid." While this opinion of the late law officers remains before us, unexamined by our own law officers, it would be pre eumptuons in me to express any opinion of my own. It is our intention to submit the question to the most care. Id and deliberate consideration of our law officers, and ascertain from them whether in equity and justice we could advise the Crown or recommend to Parliament any mode by which to faCilitate a judicial decision upon this venerable title-deed. But I am bound in justice to the company to say that, though it might be very desirable to try the validity of the charter, it is not absolutely necessary to do so for any immediate objects of colonisa tion. it is but just to the company to say that it has not hitherto shown itself stubborn or intractable. It does not say, "You shall not have the land which our charter covers." It says, on the contrary, "Take whatever laud you please, Heaven forbid we should stand in the way of civilisation. We are not the fit agents to colonise, we have not the means for it ; we tried it at Vancouver's, and are glad to get rid of the experiment; take, then, whatever land you desire within the range of the charter. Bet"—here comes the critical but we rely on your honesty ;"—(hear)—in other words, "if you take from us that which we actually possess without proving that we have not the right to possess it—,se are human beings, and we expect some kind of compensation." (Hear.) Seeing all the embarrassments of this dilemma, I cannot but admire the skill with which, in pursuance of the re port of our committee, the right hon. gentleman the member for Taunton devised a scheme which was in tended to unite the objects we have in view with a tem perate conciliation towards the claims of the company. He proposed to cede this territory to Canada if she would agree to open a line of communication to it, and give satisfactory evidence of her intension to take steps for laying out townships and settling and administering the affairs of these districts ; and as to the Hudson's Bay Company, he proposed to renew its trading licence for 21 years over the Nsi!derness not fitted for colonisation ; and that three commissioners—one chosen by Canada, one by the Imperial Government, and one by the company —should consider and report what, under all the circumstances of the case, might be justly payable to the company in consequence of such contemplated annexation, and in respect of property which they might be required to surrender. Well, if Canada reject these proposals, our hands are free for fresh negotiations and unfettered action. Meanwhile, to sum up my answer to the hon. and learned gentleman, first, I think the licence ought not to be renewed except where civilisa tion has no requirements and law no other machinery but that of the company, Secondly, with regard to raising the question of the validity of the charter, it will be submitted to our law officers, and we can obviously spy nothing one way or other till their opinion is re ceived. Thirdly, I grant the expediency of strengthen ing our empire in NCii th America by substituting, and in one connected frontier line, the colonies of Great Britain for the hunting grounds of a trading company. (Hear.) It is my sincere wish and hope that es-range ments for that object may be effected ia a spirit of reasonable conciliation to all parties concerned, and that we may thus lay the foundation of a civilised community, upon those principles of humanity towards the red men, and of honour and honesty towards the white, which our civilisation should csery along with it wherever it ex tends, as the colonisers of old carried along with them a fragment of their native earth, and a light from the altar of their ancient council hall. (Cheers.) The company have assured las of their desire to meet the of the case iu a ~peril of concession, and I do hope that early next session we may propose to Pardament arrange ments that will receive its approval. In the object be fore us we all have a common interest—to fulfil the mis sion of the Angle-Saxon race, in spreading inteltittence, freedom, and Christian faith wherever Providoece gives us the dominion of the soil, and industry and skill build up cities in the desert. (Hear, hear.) Sir, hoping that what I have said will satisfy my hon. and learned friend at leent as to the general view of the Govern ment, I have only to thank the house for the indulgence with which it has beard me. (Cheers.) Lord J. RUSSELL said the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down had a difficult task before him, and he was quite sure that the house would be inclined to give him whatever time he might think necessary in orderto decide on the course of policy which might seem most useful to the country, and he might say, for the benefit cf mankind. There was one part of the question which was easy, or at least apparently easy, but they had no sooner settled the easy part of the question than they found themselves in an almost inexplicable diffi culty. That part which was easy was that part of the question which his right hon. friends the member for the University, the member for Taunton, and the Secretary of State were all agreed upon. They said there was part ,t t ah e tra territory tnfoo rrwy,fah th e nsaii ethsnahfiedPecel of this territory that was fit for colonisation. So far they were sailing in smooth water, and there were no rocks in their way, but immediately they got beyond this part of the question there arose a great number of questions be fore the matter could be settled. One question woe, brew much was there of this territory which was capable of colonisation ? They had next the question, by whom should this territory be colonised? Should it be by Cana dians, or by emigrants from this country? And they had then this further question—what were the rights of the Hudson's Bay Company? He believed that the Hudson's Bay Company considered this entirely es a commercial speculation. They had not to deal with a company like the East India Company, having a dominion and great power and patronage, which they did not like to lose. The Hudson's Bay Company looked only to profit, and provided that was secured, and that their capital was replaced, they took no farther interest in the question. There remained that which he was afraid was at the bottom of the question, which they must solve before they could go farther in the project they all enter tained, namely, what were the legal rights of this company ? The company said, "Take the whole territory if you will, but do not let us be unjustly de prived of what we consider our property." Well, but what was their property, and what were their rights ? His right hon. friend (nr. Labouchere) had made propo sitions to Canada, to which, it appeared, there was no answer. The question ought to be solved, and unless we took some steps we might have the United States mak ing encroachments, and we might not have a fair solution of this question. Well, then, it appeared to him, notwith • standing the opinion of the law officers of the Crown, e rf grantedr o m ha n d, them, tbhye that they ought to have the decision of some legal tribu ti do h rr wuyv a al ho d dntys ode n n tse o ohsrotai r ifrt i vb g top: h hhor t euaeud t rcs t o l oeest uythr c an o o sßdts.h o2 .reyyo p i iiuti e toel h n edr e s :g a blit a t eed i ov e r nner n i os , wtttodhu b broory u aubct t sbe whr i dt f oo ,. ta, wbus l o anl ad n : nal, because the whole ques-ion of the Iludsoe's Bay Company depended upon it, If they had no claim to the hail a claim and Parliament thought then they had a claim for conipen• charterbt h e e takeno tother gr L eua o es r so d t o M no the Crown ; there is no particular I wise opinion in their date! In 1749 they said, "Here is a would be an ungracious thing for the Crown to raise the itself has given this privilege." They acted on the prin ciple of Sir Robert Walpole, eetictss non moven." But we had come to a different period —we bad come to a time when these que Cone were all disturbed, and it was ne cessary to get some decision, whether by the Privy Coun • cil or a court of law, wags point on which he could give no cpiniou, but they ought to have some authoritative de cision in the first instance as to what the rights of the company were. His hon. and learned friend said in his third resolution that BO much of the territory as was fit for colonisation ought to be reserved. Observe, he did not say that the whole territory should be reserved, but so much of it as might be used for colonisation. Thatseemed to take it for granted that tbere was a portion in which only furred animals and a few scattered Indians could find subsistence. What portions were and what were not fit for colonisation was a question for the ex etitive go vernment. With regard to the resolution that the pri vileges of the Hudson's Bay Company ought not to be renewed, he was quite satisfied with the declamation which the right ho s. gentleman had made. He thought it of the utmost importance that the rights of the Hud son's Bay Company should be asset tained. The prospect before u. 3 was of immense magnitude. There was the whole question of the colonisation of that country from Vancouver's Island to the banks of the Se Lawrence, and the route along which railroads and other roads might be laid might depend on the decision that might be taken during the next twelve months. The question, therefore, was of vast importance, and must occupy the attention of Government, and when the right hon. gen leman had matured his plan it would be well worthy the attention of the house. He was inclined to think it was far better that they should have a separate collny than that they should attach:that vast territory to Canada. In tha firt placa there might be a considerable cost, soma military forca might be necessary. If so, Canada would hardly undertake the mpanse of military aid. He thought it would be worthy of this country to establish in that territory two or threo c,loniee, which might in course of time resemble in some respects the great states of the American Union. Mr. A. MILLS contended that it was not desirable that the charter of the company should be at once dis continued in the case of those districts at all events which were incapable of colonisation. He might also be permitted to observe that there appeared to him to be much force in the remark that we ought to do every thing in our power to protect the native Indian race, which his own experience tended to prove was rapidly becoming extinguished. (Hear.) We should employ all means to delay at least as much as possible the extinc tion of those races. In the spirit of the resolutions he quite concurred, and would only add that he hoped the day was not far distant when tho legal question that had been raised should be finally nettled, (Hear, hear.) Mr. LOWE thought if it was desirable to take from the Hudson's Bay Company the territory of which they were possessed, there could be little difficulty in the matter; and if the company were not entitled to those possessions they were not entitled to compensation. But the Hudson's Bay Company were a trading and a commercial company, and if by the legislation of that house their trade should be injured and taken away from them, then they would be entitled to compensation for the injury. He confessed there was one thing which he should much regret to see, arid that was the claims and rights of the Hudson's Bay Company submitted to the decision of a court of law. (Heel-, hear.) The Hud son's Bay Company had received their charter, with certain grants of land, from Charles IL, and if, after having held those lands for 200 years, they were now to be taken from them by an act of Parliament, he must say that such a proceeding would be a great wrong, and a wrong of wbi oh the Government, should they have recouroe to it, would have great reason to be ashamed. (Hear, hear.) lois he would lay down as a maxim, that no country ought to form a colony which she was not able to defend. (Hear, hear.) The tight hon. gentlemen then referred to the evidence of Colonel Lefroy and other authorities who had surveyed the Hue son Bay Company's territory, showing the manner the company carry on their trade in the different parts of the territory. (Hear, hear.) The proposit:on or scheme for eotablishing a new colony would simply, if it were carried out, place a large num , ber of British subjects in the hands of the American Go vernment the first time a war between the two countries took place. Then again, before a colony was established there should be some reasonable prospects of its success. To establish a colony might be matter of policy, but success must depend on individual interests, and on com• tnercial exertions. What lona fide interest would people have in going to the Red River settlement ? If they established a colony there, and failed in tempting people to proceed thither, they would be doing the g rea t es t pos sible mischief. t was, in his opinion, quite clear that it was not desirable to introduce competition into the fur trade. If they established a colony at the Red River settlement, which was English in name and American in spirit, they might be laying the foundation for a war between England and America. Mr. GILPIN said that his attention had always been directed to the condition of the natives under the inla Of the Hudson's Bay Company rather than to the question of the monopoly or no monopoly of the company. He was at a loss to understand the personnel of the Hud son's Bay Company. Its capital was undoubtedly in very few hands. Believing that the claims of the com pany were illegal, he hoped the resolutions would be adopted. (Hear, hear.) Mr. KINNAIRD, whilst he agreed with the noble lord the member for London that the legal question ought to be settled, thought with the hon. member for Kidderminster that it was most unwise unnaturally to foster colonisation. He denied the justness of the alle gations of cruelty brought against the company. Com paring the condition of the natives under the company with that of those under the Americans, he was of opinion that the former appeared in a much more favour able light. Mr. C. FORTESCUE adverted to the inconsistency between the aruasents of the hon. member for Not tingham (Mr. Gilpin) against the withd rawa l o f th e pro tecting influence of the Hudson's Bay Company, and his recent obj-ction to the continued presence of our squadron on the west coast of Africa. He (Mr. Fur tcscue) contended that the natives had been treated with the greatest consideration by the servants of the company. The hon. and learned member for Sheffield had, he thoughtf given a very highly coloured picture of relations subsisting between the company and the Indians. If the tie at present in force were severed rudely ho believed that the territory would be valueless to this country. He thought that the pledge of the Colonial Secretary that a colony should be established in the district of. the Red River, in the event of the failure of Canada doing so, a rash one. The best mode of leading to such a settlement would be by continuing, under certain modifications, the powers of the Hudson's Bay Company. Mr. C. FITZ WILLIAM maintained that the Hudson's Bay Company had been hardly dealt with. It was not for people in this country to say what lands should be colonised. . Mr. WYLD thought that the compromise proposed by the Government, if fairly carried ent, ~ .,;L.1.1 be au ,l-I)11,'e to th. Cauaeians and to the people of this country. Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD said that the settlement of the legal rights of the company lay at the very thresh told of the question. The hon. and learned member for Sheffield and the noble lord the member for London de sired to act in a spirit of justice and liberality towards the Hudson's Bay Company, but before the measure of justice could be meted out the rights of the company must be determined. Be hoped the Government would put this branch of the question in train for decision. Mr. ROEBUCK, iu reply, said he thought the inte rest the subject bad' created a sufficient justification for having brought it forward ; but he would not divide the house on his proposition, as he should be averse to be thought in antagonism with the Colonial Secretary, whose opinions, if not entirely coincident with his own, were generally in harmony with them. The honourable and learned gentleman then replied specifically to the honourable member for Kidderminster, who had led the attack agaii at the resolutions. Ho denied the imminence of the danger of col lision with America, which the honourable member had shadowed out as arising from the nec ess ity o f go i ng through a portion of America to the Red River. The fact was that the settlement could be reached by British waters. The honourable and learned member then re plied to the remarks of Mr. Labouchere, contending that white civilisation was better than red civilisation, and that the question was whether we should by legislation accelerate or retard its advancement. The motion was then withdrawn. THE RUSSIAN WAR AND BRITISH PROPERTY. Mr. CRAWFORD begged to "That an humble address be preseutod to her Majesty, praying that she will be graciously pleased to appoint a Royal Com mission to inquire into the complaints made by certain of her subjects of the destruction of their property by her Majesty's forces at Uleaborg, in the Gulf of Bothnia, during the recent war with the Emperor of Russia, as more particularly set forth in memorials addressed by Messrs. Mathieson and Ritter and Messrs. Henry Dresser and Co., to the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury." Premising that the matter involved not only the interests of individuals, but the fair fame of this country as a belligerent, he proceeded to state the cir cumstances of one of the cases, in which a quantity of • timber, only calculated for building purposes, and not therefore contraband of war, and which was private and partly British property, had been destroyed in 1854 by Admiral Plumridge. He characterised the transaction as wanton and barbarous, without the slightest justifica tion, and in the teeth of the declared policy of our Government and of a proclamation issued by Admiral Plumridge himself, the place being quite defenceless. Mr. ADAMS seconded the motion, He expressed his regret that the Government had expressed its inten tion of opposing the motion, and he thought that they had arrived at that conclusion without knowing the real facts cf the case. Sir J. PAKINGTON hoped to satisfy the house that there were two sides to the question. The Government, he said, might have rested their opposition to the motion on the ground that repeated applications have been made upon the subject and rejected. The Government had referred the question to the law officers of the Crown, who had given a decided opinion against the claim for compensation. He denied that the timber, which had been destroyed along with a large quantity of pitcki and tar by Admiral Pluinridg,e, was of a private nature ; it was contraband of war, the timber being fit for the con struction of vessels, and no proof had been offered to the Admiral that any part of the property belonged to British merchants. Mr. M. GII3SON said he did not mean to argue that these parties had a legal title to indemnity, but he con tended that they had a moral, just, and equitable claim upon the British Government f,l. the loss. It was well known that the affair was a mistake. Sir C. NAPIER. said that Admiral Plurnridga had been perfectly right in the service be performed. It had been stated upon authority that 12 gunboats had been built at Uleaborg, and he thought it was unfair that this matter should be brought before the house four years after the occurrence. Mr. WEGUELIN observed, that the question turned upon this point—whether the articles were or were not contraband of war, and all Mr. Crawford asked was a commission to inquire into the circumstances of the destruction of the property, and of what it consisted. The SOLICITOR GENERAL remarked, that no claim had been made in either of the cases till 1856, and in one case not till the present year ; and he asked whether it was right to listen to applications for com- pensation so lonQ after the transaction, and when it was so difficult to arrive at the truth. He disputed the claims, however, upon their merits, maintaining thl the articles destroyed were contraband of war. Mr. CLAY avowed that he advised the delay of the claims until after the termination At the war. Th, tno.ion was supported by Mr. MALINs and Mr. Pitrcs. Mr. CRAWFOF:D replied. The honso divided, and the numbers were-- lis.r the motion ........................ G 5 Against ................................• 105 105 Maj.)rity ........................... --40 The honso then proceeded to the orders of the day. CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL. Oa the motion that this bill be read a second time, Sir ET. WILLOUGHBY called attention to a prat ice which had prevailed of applying portions of a vote which had been given for a particularprpose to a totally dif ferent purpose. Ile therefore submitted that Euch an appropriation should be Made by a distinct vote, so that the authority cf this houSe over the public money should he strictly maintained. (Efear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, said when they went into sommittee he would show that the hon, gentleman hatl very much mistaken the practice which had prevailed on the subject to which he had alluded. The bill was then read a second time; CLERK OF PETTY SESSIONS (IRELAND) BILL. This bill passed through committee. THE GOVERNMENT OF NEW CALEDONIA BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. DETACHED PARTS OF COUNTIES BILL. This bill passed through committee. CHELSEA BRIDGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL The order for the third reading was discharged, and the bill was ordered to be recommitted. Mr. If INGRAM moved that the toll be not charged on Christmas-day. This motion was agreed to amid loud cheers. JEWS BILL. On the order of the day for reading this bill a third time, Mr. NEWDEGATE moved that the debate be ad journed, which was negatived. The debate was ultimately adjourned till this day. THE MILITIA (SERVICE ABROAD) BILL. This bill was read a second time. The Marriages (Moscow, Tahiti, &c.) Bill passed through committee. ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION BILL, This bill was read a second time. The Law of False Pretences Amendment Bill was read a third time and passed, and the house adjourned at a quarter past two o'clock. RAILWAY COLLIBION. Another fearful railway accident has occurred near Huddersfield, attended with injury to upwards of 20 persons, but happily with no loss of life. It cannot be said, however, that all the sufferers are yet out of danger. The particulars of the unfortu nate affair are as follow:--The place where the col lision occurred is the Longwood station, on the London and North-Western Railway, about two miles from Huddersfield. The collision, which oc curred on Monday afternoon, was between a pas senger train from Leeds and Huddersfield (on its way to Manchester) and a coal train. The passenger train arrived at Huddersfield from Leeds at 1.38 p.m., being eight minutes past its time, and was duly despatched for Manchester. A coal train had previow-ly been sent on the same line. While some loaded waggons were being shunted at the Lang wood station the distance signal was put on by the porter at the station in order to warn the passen ger train of the obstruction. Some of the coal wag gons had been shunted on the siding next the down line, and George Aspinall, the pointsman and gate keeper of the crossing, which is about 150 yards from the Longwocd station, had just crossed the line and turned the points for the engine of the coal train, which had shunted the waggons, to re cross and take the remaining waggons towards Manchester. The engine bad passed the points and gone up the line a short distance, when the passen ger train from Huddersfield came up at such a speed that it was evident the signal had been disregarded. It ran into the van of the coal train, smashing the van and one of the coal waggons to .pieces, in juring another, and doing great injury to the engine of the passenger train, the chimney being broken off and the buffers splintered. The passen ger train consisted of the following carriages :—• The engine and van, a second-class carriage, first ditto, and three third ditto. The first and second class carriages were comparatively uninjured, but the three thirds were considerably damaged by the collision, nearly the whole of the divisions forming the compartments being forced out. The force of the collision was such that the passengers were thrown against each other and the sides and ends of the carriages with such force as to inflict upon them many severe contusions and wounds. The scene presented was one of a very fearful character, and it is little less than miraculous that no person was killed. The passengers —men, women, and children—were crushed together, being thrown from their seats and the seats forced out of their places. As soon as possible after the acciden medical and other . assistance was rendeted zo the sufferers. All but three of the passengers, after being duly attended to by the medical men, left in the course of the afternoon for their respec tive homes, or proceethd on their journey. The three who were not able to go home were the fol lowing :—Mrs. Mary Dransfisld, aged 29, the wife of William Dranstiel(l, a ca: t.r in the employ of AT, s,r . Ogden, of adhere. She bad been visiting her parents at Kirkheaton, near Hud dersfield, and was returning home with her child to Lees, near Oldham. The child was fortunately uninjured. Mrs. Dransfield suffers from bruises ou the shoulder and knee, and a cut on the cheek ; she is also much shaken. She was removed to the Huddersfield Infirmary. Mr. G. V. Ryder, resident manager at Man chester of the Royal Insurance Company—general shook to the system, internal laceration of the muscles of the neck and side, internal injury of the head feared. Thomas Porter, about 30 years of age, at Ball's, conftctioner, New-street, Huddersfield, very serious internal injuries. This is a precarious case. The latter two persons are at the Railway Hotel, Longwood. The guard states that although he was in the van next the engine he did not no . ice that the distance signal was up at Longwood Station. So far as can be ascertained the blame of the accident rests with the driver of the passenger train, John Luty, who ought to have noticed, on emerging from the deep cutting at Paddock, that the distance signal of the Longwood Station was up. If he bad dons this he would have had suffi cient time to stop the train, and to have prevented the collision. He states, as his reason for not noticing that the signal was on, that he and the stoker were looking at the buffer boxes of his engine which were making an unusual noise at the time. Although he has been in the company's service many years he has only been engine -driver about 9 months, and is reputed to be a very steady and cautious man. The line was cleared for traffic and new rails were laid iu about an hour and a half, Country Markets. LIVERPOOL, JULY 20. Though we had a poor attendance of town and country millers at our corn exchange this morning, and transac tions were to a very moderate extent. Prices, in no instance, were considered worse than Friday last, but on the week, however, a decline must be quoted of about 3d per bushel on the common kinds of. American and Danish wheats, and is per sack and barrel on flour. Feeding de• scriptions of Indian corn in good demand, at full prices. Oats, barley, beans, and peas quite sustained their recen value, LEEDS, JULY 20. The weather is now very fine, and there is a liberal sup ply of wheat this morning. The higher qualities are held at Friday's rates • secondary s or t s se ll s l ow l y at is decline. Beans considered dearer. Other articles as before. ERAGE PRICES. Wheat 1790 quarters, at 46s 1A d Barley IP s Oct Oats 7O ~ 27s fiict Peas — „ —s Od Beans 77 „ 43s 3d NORWICH CATTLE-Jury 17. There was an average show of Scots, short-horns, De vons, and Irish exhibited to-day, with another drove of Dutch cattle, a few of which were pretty good, others very inferior. Trade active. Fat beasts, 7s Gd to 7s 6,1; prime, 8s 0,1 per stone; sheep 38s to 429 por head prime lots, 42s ; lambs, 28s to 32s ; good store pigs, 16 i to 20s. F a t pork, 5s to 5s 6d - per stone of 141bs; trade dull. PROVISION Beef, por lb 7d to 71 d I Mutton, per lb 6A to 73d Lamb, do., ...Os 8d to On 9d 1 Veal, per lb 6d to Os 7d Pork, per 1b...0s 5d t o 6:l Salmon, per lb ~. ...... Os Od Grouse, per brace—...os to Os Tallow, p stone, Os to —a 01 MARKET. Butter, P pt. is 6d to Is 7d Eggs, per 16, Os Od to is OJ Hens, p pair Os Od to Os 0 1 Chickens,do.4s Od to 51; 61 Ducks, do., 4s 6d to 6g OJ Ducklings,do2s 01 to 2s 6 I Turkeys, each Os Od to 04 01 Potatoes, per qr., ....3d to 4d BIRTHS. CIIRETON—On the 20th inst., at 13, Dean's-yard, West rninster, Mrs. Cureton, of a daughter. EDEN—On the Ith inst., at Ham, the wife of Frederick Morton Eden, Esq., of a daughter. GLAISDER—On the 17th inst., at Blackheath, the wife of James Glaisher, Esq., F.R.S., of a son. PARK—On the 19th inst., at 32, Kensington•park-gardens, the wife of James Dickson Park, Esq., of a daughter. MARRIAGES. TACEY—GREEN--On the 13th inst., at St. Paul's Church, Hammersmith, Mr. Wm. George Tacey, of Brighton, to Jessy, only daughter of the late Sami. Fred. Green, Esq., solicitor, of Lincoln's-inn-fields. WALDRON—VALE—On the 15th inst., at St. James's Church, Longton, Staffordshire, the Rev. George H. Waldron, of Salisbury House, Potter's-bar, Middlesex, to Rebecca►, daughter of the Rev. Dr. Vale, rector of Longton. DEATHS. DURTON —On the 15th inst., at 4, Lansdowne-terr a:le , Hackney, Thornton Burton, Ev q ., l a t e of Guernsey, aged 39. BEAUMONT—On the 15th inst,, at Whitchurch, Oxon, and formerly of Austiufriars, London, Mr. Benjamin Beaumont, aged 45. CARRINGTOK—On tlie 18th inst., Richard Carrington, Esq., of Sydenham-hill, Kent, and of the Royal Brew ery, Brentford, Middlesex. LEWIS—On the 10th inst., at 47, Westbourne-terrace, the Rev. W. Lewis, fur 23 years vicar of Abbot's Langley, Herte, aged 02. PARK—On the 20th inst., at 14 Ashley-place, Westmin- ster, Mary, widow of the late Hon. Vice-Chancellor Sir Tames Parker, aged 59. LONDON : bill-LW and Published by ICIIRDO YOUNG; of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in tho.eounty of Middlesex, Wednesday, July 21, 18b8, aREAT ZI A-JERSF.Y ar ilnd 35s tTS for one xi GREAT FANTILY born a fortnight to • MatlY reduced fare C-,REA.T FAMILY Mid 'Sill ord-haven.l Parties of not less I and 455. GREAT - KTT,L ARN' rlen and Waterti ' 4 W Issued at Pad( L 1 arx goll en, GREAT NORTH W Pares (rail and coac R EE/11-• ISLOF Aentrn Tickets, fo Pares (rail and boat REAT SOUTH W able for Narberth-r Chepstow &c., for rarea, 70s and 50a. t 0 ..._. ~..._...._::llan:ernepenrrtslioa:nasir—leynr Tic ... 1 , 7 ,7 , 2 ,- :h &„" d - s t i r l:t .. - li, 7 y i ° " „ -E gbe T rL a b l i, A E i c N E' : LON DON a [nation, L a „, be report '‘ocic DM CI "MO affiti f eed, and the skew . l gc fon., We e Ea 11 h Of the prom. and 41 ita e r 11 l 1 . 1 1. --;e:P : l e ac t l'urr°P o al ti o nlit : at :1" '.? held a :. tnel le f eurat stlnt t i ids:: Exmouth Mt Wi,,b v , ,-- and ap, aY Company il l ul be closed from e 7t4 day of Ann W aterloo-bridge lIANE Woo ~ 3 w 30th instant, W foiants r '" proximo and payat 22d J ane, 1858. Prospecta INT I NETE DIREcTon At nalf Year e n di the an t_ Annual 441,1 4 House Edward StillingA JO h llb. 1 :! Alfred Chown *ire Clive, Esq., COOer, F han Ho P pkins "Qarn Jackson, 13°14040ns Mess ~ ttnager r 4ft_erwards the fon follow• The m The balance -shoe ° ,_ ance-shve -..lrellrecto haYe l81!p (including # 14i,, i , 5 1 £14,019 8 fh“ for bid and nplianee w t ie ra u lrectors In 44g ust te ne e x f 5 per .14n . s t he SQIII of V. tarn n " yet due, a • ed forward ttn co , o 34 .1 ,, , !ng I ireetors Sli g i b i and. W Ude ~,,,, e, offer them 'ukSl Eßetst, BAN - °410.P.1,tal aubsetihed. 4:: ::ue rEa nce a e l emp(abb due er to 18 t 5 2 1 0 7/ ioranteefunl ',Mee of tindh `yr: or P ott r v ; is o j fi luo t nr f ie o , r folrB th sB e :, Nrle.tax, ant ~t ha rges andlexpi debts..• • • • • 'Mee carried it Ch.,7. • in the bank Exehegaer we d i „_ ti es ` . counted, lc En% ...... ngloom O4 lease) Atti bivid f end th at th e , 84)°, e bat e 4,! 'll4 irate 9P. 4 41.4 n rg new ac ep carried t tk arin,. I , ll e bro ught a b 1441 0 11 147 n and w n lrect Drtnt e d , 4 ecl Ch alintan N e ared a Divide eOr O t 1111 r 0 1,! 111e-tivIlh'::111Di e nl'er'e rP t ira:::dcIT11:111-11° E "alla ha "rnl arl th a l( rTta ant. nd the PE Der a n , 04 A T N ta x nd ar ter mo Dat e 1 11°11 LE or ati lt t 3 oly tWelll 4l di n et ;;: n7 b wkle * are rei n to dad pquainti thin As Zithi o ,n a rse 14ight s i o t i n get gainl'hehorse r; e of Vie t : d noless tl et, T .4 , t r a a it:ea sttla testa re.t 110, 5nr ,2 , ••es o totki s on : o 4 , l l_ eat