The Sun. — London, England, 1829-05-18 00:00:00

SPIRti 0T TiT toNooN JouRNAM (FROM THE Ttl'Es.) The discussion on gr. O'Connell's case extends al present only to the subordinate question of what spot he shell be permitted to address tht House from in support of his title tt.* sit here under the recent act. It is to us a trtatter of deep reat, that . _ any question whether of form or sollntance, should have arisen at such a moment upon the operation 431 that great statutes 'fiat an act of Parll=ol proft%sing, and indeed providing for, the ik!ts't valu able objects of an enlightened i'ftd benevolent legis lation, should be so wordtd as to obstruct one of the earliest claims to its protection by phrases in consistent with its whole character and spirit, can hardly be held creditable, we do not say to the sin , verity, hut, beyond a doubt, to the sagacity Of its authots. After Mr. O'Connell shall have been beard, we take it for granted that a motion involving the real question at issue will be made, viz.—that the Hon. Gentleman be permitted to take thy^ bath prescribed by the Act of the present Session. Should this motion be negatived by a majority, the Non. Gentleman will still (it is presumed) have the power to vacate his seat, although umworn, en accepting the Chiltern Hundreds. His MN,leFty's Ministers must deeply regret the necessity thus caused for another Clare election, xvhich all the let , teas from Ireland &CCM confident gill be favourable to Mr. O'Connell. ;FROM THE MORNV.G CHRONICLE.) *The adjourned discussion as to whether. Mr. O'Connell shall be heard comes on to-night. The discussion on the construction of the Act of Parlia ment follows. We hardly ever remember a case of more marked insult to the nation than this question as to Mr. O'Connell's right to be heard and sit, which has been so studiously got up by those who bswe the direction of the Collective Wisdom. A tNousand matters of importance claim the attention of Parliament; and the only reason which can be w.signed for not entering on the consideration of any 01 them, is the impossibility of doing so during the 'remainder of the Sessicn. Yet this brief period is to be wasted in the discussion of a question of a purely isolated character, and which determines no. thing, for the case can never again occur,—a ques tion which, having been contemplated during the progress of the Relief Bill through?, a House, could of course have been avoided by the se of different language. The exemption of I‘'lt O'Connell by name from the benefit conferred or other Catho lics would have done the business effectually. But it was wished to insult the nation by an idle discus sion, at a time when men of any feeling of the im- portance of the charge, might have had the decency nt 'exit to affect being very differently employed.— We are not in the habit of using harsh language, and ran make allowance for the difficulties with which men in office have to contend. 'hit we Omni(' despise ourselves were we to epeak of this impertinent and most offensive conduct of Ministers with common patience: It iA the most wanton and barefaced attempt to bring Parliament into contempt that we remember. Good God, only think of men pretending to be Statesmen, and not candidates for a place in one of Dr. War burton's asylums, gravely stultifying themselves with a mock debate of this nature It is as clear as sunshine, that the return of Mr. O'Connell before or after the commencement of the Act, is a matter of moonshine; and that there can be no good reason for demanding that he in particular shall take oaths, which the Legislature has declared ought no longer to be taken by Catholics. He is a Member of the House of Commons--that will not be disputed, no matter when returned ; and why should a►,y repre sentative of the people be asked to take oaths, which have been condemned as an improper restraint bn Catholics? After the commencement of the Act, which says that it is expedient that all such restraints and disabilities as are implied in these oaths shall be discontinued, who shall say that it is expedient still to demand the taking of the oaths ? To ask any man to take an oath which Parliament says ought from the commencement of a certain Act to be discontinued, is nothing short of the arrogation of a dispensing power. However, we will trot waste words in arguing a ease, which it would be art insult to the understanding of any /4 our readers to suppose they deemed to require bring argued. What we feel indignant at, in com mon with the public, is the spectacle of the House of Commons staving off public business of im portance to enter on an idle question, which settles nothing. No, no, the Honourable House has no cause to fear being brought into contempt ! Per haps Ministers have resolved on this demonstration of more than asinine folly, as a sort of atonement to tho IVrong-heads of the country, for the liberal end moderate course they have lately held. There roust be some stroke of Machiavelian policy in the business. Time, we suppose, will afford the solu tion. We wish the Honourable House had heard the compliments which during these two days have been unsparingly paid to their wisdom ! !FROM THE MORNING PIERALI)•) This evening, in the House of Commons, the ar• gs:ment in respect of Mr. O'Connell will come on, es to whether he shall be heard at the table of the Bouse, or at the bar. We should think that it will be decided that he shall be heard at the bar, and not at the table. But why all this fuss ?—why not have allowed him to have taken the new oaths and Isis seat on Friday night ? If he will not be allowed to take his seat for Clare now, under the new oaths, he will be allowed to take his seat for Clare at an other election, under the same oaths. But why should he be unnecessarily put to a further expense, a; Member for Clare ? Now the Catholics have gained what they wanted, we cannot see why any sp een should be exhibited towards Mr. O'Connell. There is no use in it. To refuse him—and an it dividual only—would be ripping up old grievances. That he was the cause of the Catholic Bill being c.lrried this .!_.ession there can be no doubt. Had it net been for him, it would not have been arried for twenty years to come. Perhaps the Duke of Wellington and Mr. Peel intend his rejection as a retaliation for the mortification he must have caused them when, some time since, be called them names so lustily, but that was before it was known that a Catholic Bill would be brought into the House by the Government. There is, however, an old adage which says "forget an( forgive." We cannot see of what use it possibly can be the present rejection of Mr. O'Connell. To exclude him will be mean, and shew the unamiable sgis it of revenge. That he forced upon the King ant the Protestants the Bill, and principally beraus) he called the Duke of Wellington and Mr. Peel names, we have no doubt. But the King and the Protestants have almost forgotten the Bill and the name-calling; why should not the Duke and Mr. Peel, forget both too ? It is cot improbable but the old-oath and the new-oath farce may continue ks. three or four days, and our readers must make up their minds to read some terribly long-winded, bothering speeches; and all about that which may be called " Much Ado about Nothing." Mr. Mathews and Mr. Yates might make a tolerably decent representation of the matter if they would attend in the gallery during the important debate. Mathews might cause some fine fun hereafter. (FROM THE MORNING POST.) _ _ The question, or rather the series of questions of which the discussion is to be resumed to-night in the House of Commons, are we believe principally in debted for the interests they excite in the pullic mind, to the practice so prevalent among English men of backing their opinion 4, as it is called. The subject has been quite a sporting one, and numerous, ti versified, and deep are the wagers depending upon the decision now about to be pronounced, whether ilie recent Act, intended, as no doubt it was by its framers, to exclude Mr. O'Connell, is or is not in this respect efficient, as well as upon the decision, if hat should also becoate- necessary, of another ques tion prior in respect to its date, but secondary and dependent in the order of discussion, whether Mr. O'Connell, Mr. C. • Butler, and other Catholic em, were right in their more recent opinion as to the effect of the former laws, or in that which they had been constantly pronouncing, by their con duct and complaints, during the whole of their antes ceder!! !Via. We own that We do hot eiperletti'.e •, ltiiich anxiety upon the subject; nor do we pirceiVe any . symptOrn s;.+A;:,h reeling in society, which either in kind or degree : from these which usually precede the .race for the Derby pr Leger Stakes. What the I-Wes* ist C'e:i'aorts nas to do is to deeid's ;....!(111Mly upon the construction of one 4:."...ffiore Acts o(Parliameet,in reference to a case which is morally certain to be the last as it is the first of its kind. It is of importance no doubt to the character of the House itself, that it should decide this or any ether question of a nature purely judiriftl, upon strittlyjudi cial prineiplcfis without adverting at all to any eitra= neon's citcUmstances or incidental consequences, and that its decision, when prohounced, ieliOuld be found to concur with the bpiniois or the highest legal au thorities; bis't bey and this simple and obvious con sideration, we cannot see that the matter is of any considerable importance. If, as we anticipate, the House ultimately decide in conformity with the sen timents so well expressed by the Speaker, that Mr. O'Connell cannot sit in virtue of the present returns unless he take the oaths to which he objecis, it cannot with any degree Of justice or even plausibi lity be accused Of sacrificing principle to conveni entT, becauae nothing can be more obvious than that this would be the least convenient decision.— Had the House of Commons a right to exercise its discretion upon the question whether there should be a new election for the county of Clare, almost imme' diately, we have no doubt that a great majority of its Members would vote against the proposition, even although the alternative were to give something like a triumph to Mr. O'Connell. This gentleman has filled so large a space in the eyes of his countrymen, and his public conduct (reprehensible as it was) has been so successful, for the purpose to which it was directed, that he is sure to have a place in the Representation of Ireland ; and although we hope that a county ' election might now take place in Ireland without much tumult, outrage, or effervescence, it must strike every one that it would be quite as well not to expose the recent Act of Parliament to so early and severe a trial. it the House could do any thing more than pronounce what the law is, and act upon it as it is, we believe there would be very little dis position in arty party to adopt a course which must lead to a new election for the county of Clare, a proceeding which, with whatever tranquillity and good order it might be conducted (and as to this even there are probably few persons who feel entire confidence), could not, in the present state of the constituency of Ireland, lead to a satisfactory result. The constituency of Ireland is at the present moment in a kind of abeyance. The forty-shilling franchise is abolished. And in every county of Ireland there 13 a number of ten-pound freeholders more than suf ficient to vary the issue of a contested election, who hare applied in consequence of that Act, or will apply, for registration, and who can give no vote for six months to come. If, as is most probable, Mr. O'Connell should be rejected, it will be highly ex pedient so far to deviate from the usual practice of the House as to defer the issue of a new writ until the next Session of Parliament. We feel confident that no temptation will be sufficient to induce the House of Commons to strain and pervert the law ; but as some of the more eager partizans of Mr. O'Connell talk of quibbles and special pleading, and more than insinuate that the law is likely to be strained for the purpose of resisting his claim, we could not more effectually expose the groundlessness of their suspicion, than by showing that, if motives of convenience could be allowed to operate at all, they would operate very powerfully in his favour. (FROM THE MORNING ADVERTISER . ) In the House of Commons, this evening, there are three points which will come under the conside ration of its Members—first, whether Mr. O'Con nell shall be heard in support of his right to sit and vote in the House of Commons—secondly, whether he shall be heard at the bar, or at the table of the House—and thirdly, whether he shall be allowed to sit as Member for the county of Clare, or his elec tion declared void, in consequence of its having taken place prior to, instead of after, the commencement of the new Act. With regard to being heard before the House, either at the bar or at the table, the right of Mr. O'Connell, both on general and particu lar grounds, is indisputable. The house of Com mons, in deciding upon his individual case, is act ing, not in its legislative, but in its judicial ca pacity; and besides the precedents which exist for such a proceeding, it cannot be imagined for a moment, that it would resolve on deciding the question at issue without having recourse to the common place justice of hearing what the soi-disant Member has to allege in his behalf. The debate on this point is not therefore likely to last long; and as little time, we trust, will be consumed in discussing whether the Honourable Representa tive of the county of Clare shall be heard within twenty, or only fiftezn, feet of the Speaker —the point being one of mere form, and as little essential to the proper construction of the Act of Parliament, as whether the aspirant to a seat shall appear in top or in Wellington boots. Tie great point, in fact, to be determined is whe ther Mr. O'Connell has or has not a right to sit ; and with regard to this matter we entertain precisely the same opinion which we expressed on Saturday. The new Act, it appears, has been so constructed that in one part it appears to have been made with the express view of excluding Mr. O'Connell, and, in another, to open a door for his admission. The Act, therefore, may be said to throw no positive light on the subject ; and the proper mode of deciding the question at issue, would, therefore, undoubtedly be, to treat Mr. O'Con nell as one who had been returned under the old law, which excluded him, and not as one who had been returned under the new Act, which admits him. Had Mr. O'Connell been elected since the passing of the new Act, there could have existed no doubt of his right to take his seat ; for in that case he would have fairly come within its provisions; but lie was, on the contrary, elected at a time when the law virtually declared his election void, and unless it be alleged, which, we think, it will not, that it was made expressly for the purpose of admitting him, we see no valid reason for not considering him as coming expressly within its provisions. td A meeting of the merchants, bankers, and other inhabitants of Greenock, was held on Tuesday, in the Town-hall, Greenock, when resolutions were adopted for petitioning both Houses of Parliament against the mono poly of the East India Company. THE MURDER AT KENSINGTON.—During the whole of yesterday, Addison's-road, Kensington, was thronged by hundreds of persons from London, as well as the different places adjacent, where the unfortunate female, SARAH War rE, was murdered. The place where the diabolical deed was perpetrated, is about one hundred yards beyond a new chapel, called St. Mary Abbott's Chapel, on the left-hand foot-path leading to the Uxbridge road. The blood of this ill-fated female is still perceptible at the edge of the road-side, close to the footpath, and dur ing the who'e of yesterday it was surrounded by numbers of persons completely forming a ring, so great was the anxiety to see the spot. Every exertion has been used by the resident Magistrates to bring the perpetrators of this horrid murder to light, and on Saturday they had a long consultation on the subject. No other persons are in cus tody but THOMAS BIA3IINGHAM MURDER AT DISS, IN NORFOLIC.—The in habitants of the above town were thrown into a state of alarm on Thursday morning, on discovering the body of a woman named GOODERIIAM, better known by that of BRY♦NT, in a lane called Broome-lane, opposite Mr. Con- NELL'S mill, on the way to Roydon• The deceased was seen by a little boy walking in company with a man in that ditectiou. about nine o'clock, and about twelve the same night a woman, named BARKER, heard a violent scream ing, apparently proceeding from the same spot. On exa mining ths body, several wounds were found to have been inflicted, a•td of such a nature as to leave no doubt but that the intentians of the perpetrator bad been too fully accom plished. As yet nothing has transpired which can lead to any discovery of the murderer or murderers. A Coroner's inquest was held in the afternoon, and adjourned until Wstisesday next.—Norfolk Chronic-la. SECOND EDITION. :':UN OFFICE, Seven o'Clock. IMPERIAL 1 1 A RUAM ENT THIS EVENING; HOUSE OF LORDS. The Earl of ELDON presented a petition from the Silk Throwsters of London and its vicinity, praying for protection. Lord DURHAM presented a petition, against the Bill for improving the approaches to London Bridge SILK MU; 'the Bill for regulating the Duties on Foreign Thrown Silk went through a Committee without any alteration, and the Report was received. THORNDIKE'S DIVORCE BILL. A witness was examined in support of Thorn dike's Divorce Bill. Lord LAUDERDALE objected to this evidence being receikzedi as oh a forttier detasion, when milar Bill was before the House, this witne. , s was not produced. This led to a short debate, in which Lords ELDON, BEREsFORD, TENTERDEN, arid REDESDALE took a part, after which the further consideration was postpored. CAZALET'S DIVORCE BILL. On the motion of the Loan CHASCELLOP, the Bill was read a second time. CHANCERY BILL. The Bill for the appointment of a new Chancery Judge and for the better administration of Justice in the Court of Chancery, went through a Com mittee and was ordered to be re-committed to morrow.: 1 he House adjourned at Six o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Long before Four o'clock, the gallery of the House was crowded with persons anxious to hear the debate upon the question as to whether Mr. O'Connell was to be heard at the Bar of the House in support of his objections to taking the oaths ten dered to him under the former Act of Parliament. A great number of Members were also in attend ance, but not so many as when Mr. O'Connell at tempted to take his seat as Member for Clare on Friday. Mr. CLIVE presented a petition from the Cord weavers of Hereford, against the importation of French shoes. Mr. DOWNIE presented a petition from the Ma gistrates of Incerkeithing against the Scotch Gaol Bill. ST. DUNSTAN'S CHURCH BILL. On the motion of Mr. Alderman WOOD the Sr. Dunstan's Church Bill was read a third time and passed. Lord L. GOWER brought in a Bill for the con tinuance of the Acts for the Relief of Insolvent Debtors in Ireland. The Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. - - Mr. S. RICE brought up the report of the Com , mittee on the Charitable Loan Societies' Bill (Ire land). The Law Terms Regulation Bill was postponed until Wednesday. ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS' BILL. On the motion of Sir JOHN NtcnoLL, this Bil went through a Committee, the Report was brough up, and ordered to be received to-morrow. MURDERERS' ATTEMPTS' (SCOTLAND) BILL. The LORD ADVOCATE moved the third reading of this Bill, which was read a third time, and accordingly passed. FRIENDLY SOCIETIES' BILL. Mr. PORT MAN brought up the Report on the Friendly Societies' Bill, which was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. The Six Clerks Office Bill was read a third time and passed. About this time the House became crowded with Members, as well in the galleries as in the body of the House. Mr. HUME presented two petitions praying for the repeal of the Corn Laws, from the inhabitants of Kidderminster and North Grimley, in the county of Gloucester. The SPEAKER called on Mr. Brougham to move the order of the day, for taking into considera. tion the question as to Whether the Member for Clare should be heard at the Bar or at the Table of the House, in support of his objections to take the oaths. Mr. BROUGHAM—Sir, the Right Honour.. able Gentleman opposite moved the adjournment on Friday, and I therefore think that he is entitled to open the adjourned debate. Mr. SUGDEN—Sir, I wish to know from the Hon. Member opposite, what the oath was which Daniel O'Connell, Esq., took in the office of the Lord High Steward. Mr. HUME—The Hon. Member can discover that by the certificate. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Mr. SUGDEN, the Hon. Member must be aware that the certificate does not afford any such informa tion. (Cheers from the Ministerial Benches.) There is only one person besides himself who can give that information and that is the Hon. Member for Westminster, both of whom were with him upon the occasion. The certificate only states that Daniel O'Connell, Esq. took the oaths, but it does not state what oaths. The word oaths is in the plural number, but he may have only one. Mr. HUME in answer to the Honoutable and Learned Gentleman, said I have to inform you that Mr. O'Connell took two oaths.—(Cheers and laughter.) Mr. Secretary PEEL now moved the Order of the Day. Mr. SUGDEN again rose and said, that he put the question to the Honourable Me,n her in no ill sense ; and he must there fore persevere in it. Be was actuated by no ill motives, for he considered it most material the House should know what oaths were taken. He was without this information or the means of obtain ing it, and when he applied to the Hon. Member he declined to give it. Mr. WYNNE said, if the Hon. Member de clined to give an answer, the House had no right to compel him. An Hon. Member, whose name we could not hear, said it was the new oath that Mr. O'Connell took. The SPEAKER.—The question is whether Mr. O'Connell is to be heard as to his objections to taking the oaths. Mr. Secretary PEEL—Sir, by stating my view of the case, it may serve to shorten the debate which is about to take place. An Honour- able Member of this House attempted to take his seat, and contended that he had a right to do so upon having administered to him the Oath of Supremacy. You, Sir, in your duty were compelled to enforce the law according to your construction of it. You in consequence hesitated to admit him to his seat, and required him to take other oaths also. You required him to take the oaths under a former Act, but this he objected to, and claimed to take his seat on taking the oaths passed in the present session of Parliament. The question, Sir, is this, whether the Hon. Member for Clare is to he heard at all ; and if heard, whether he is to be heard at the table or the bar. With those questions, Sir, I will not attempt to mix up any other. I wid postpone the ulterior question until it shall come properly before the House to be discussed, and I wilt address myself entirely to these three questions, whether he is to be heard ? and, if heard, whether at the table or the bar. Having given the best consideration to this quest on since the adjourn ment on Friday, I am now of opinion that under all the circumstances of the ease, it certainly would be right that Mr. O'Connell should Ile heard. Whatever, Sir, our ultimate decision may be, I think O'Connell has a right to appear at tile table; We that decision will be more satisfactory, if we admit have precedents of one that was called to the bar, and the object . of it to state his case in the manner I several wh o w e re called into the House. Havin g the shall bereaficr crineeive; sir, the . quesfien Hou: Member for the county of Clare at the bar, is riot only a special, but an iedividuai one, ziiid ther4-: Will be no impeachment of his rights and privileges fore exce pt e d from ordinary rules. But it may as tin iiiii'Weetri Mt!ishbet. will have this advan tie net merely . a question of admission to privilege, tape, and which I slioUld lie hatless shottld attend it, it but It teat' inOlee, a. dueetion of liability to penal- will tend to prevent the possibility of lifigetion else ties, b e cause eitis!,tiosit retie erise. ii w %a id! of the where. Although I have no doubt whatever net My two oaths was proper to be taken by tas Rt. 4 l - lon. and Learned Friend takes the correct view dual. If h e took the wrong oaths, I apprehend of tae etitt:titese in the opinion he has given that that certainly that he will be subject to penalties would be no infrai:tieri of those statutes, yet I in common law. He will have entitled himself cannot answer for all other Veesons taking to take hie seat under those oaths which he the same view, and it is barely possitilt that ought not, and will therefore lay himself open advantage might be taken of the circumstance tp thrA . e pttialtiee seltieli may be recovered. ,by some others to give trouble to the Member for At to the question, if it be the pleasute of the cotinty of Clare, if he were admitted to the table. the House to hear him, whether it should be at It is poseible oleo s if by possibility, a re-election of the table or at the bar, for myself, I have no hesi- that Membet shall hereliftet Fe deemed necessary, it Cation in saying, it would not be fitting to permit might lead him and his constituedi who Might after him to be heard at the table.—( Hear, hear.) I , wards return him into a question before a Cortireittee think there is nothing in the precedents which of this House, whether or no by entering into this entitles him to be heard argumentatively at th e House, at this period, he had incurred some of the table. Ido not know whether it is the wish of the forfeitures. Upon all these grounds, I for one cer- Ileuse that I should ether into these precedents ; hut tainly deem that the fit course for the House to take I shall not dti ad unless the House desired me. I be- is td prefer s of the two, both of which are open, that lieve the whole precedents bearing oil this ease, of giving the Hon. Member the opportunity of being are limited to Lord Fanshawe, the case of Sir 11. herird at the bar s and therefore of adopting the Monson, Mr. Chunley, and the case of the Conven- amendment of the Right Hon: Gentleman opposite. tion Parliament. In addition to this there ;is also The SPEAKER then put the amendment, the case of Mr. Archdale, the Quaker, and which was carried without opposition. Mr. Wilkes, who was brought up in custody Mr. BROUGHAM then observed that lie at the bar. Fanshawe, Morison, and Chum- considered it would not only be expedient to give ley, were very peculiar cases. They were Mr. O'Connell the opportunity of being heard forth- Members of the Convention Parliaments end with, but that the House should proceed and come had sat in the House without having taken any to their final decision upon the question. oaths whatever. They had never taken the oaths Mr. PEEL then made an observation in a low before either the Lord Steward or at the table of tone of voice, which we understood to be assenting the House. In fact it was impossible they could have to this proposi:ion. done so, for the Oath of Allegiance was prescribed The SPEAKER now put the question, that Mr. by King James, and therefore they could not take it. O'Connell be now called to the Bar, which was But they sates Members of the Convention Parliament, carried unanimously. and were parties to a Parliament declared to be good. Mr. O'CoNNELL in a few minutes made his ap- They were sent there when an Act passed abrogats pearance at the Bar. ing the Oath of Supremacy, and prescribing new The SPEAKER then addressed him thus :—Mr. oaths. - The law required that after the 6th March, O'Connell, the House have resolved that you be 1689, every Member of the Convention Parliament heard at the Bar by yourself, your Counsel, or should take the oaths of supremacy in lieu of the oaths Agents, in respect of your claim, to sit and vote in before taken. On the second day a call of the House Parliament without taking the oath of supremacy. was ordered, and it was noticed that several Mem- Mr. O'CONNELL then bowed and said—l am hers were absent, and they were called upon to at- sure I cannot, Sir, be accused of any affectation tend, and to take the oaths of supremacy and alle. when I state that I am very ignorant of the forms of giance first, as prescribed by the Act of 'Wit- this House, I therefore require the kind in- Liam and Mary. That was tendered to them. At dulgenee of the House; and I earnestly solicit the the table they declined taking the oaths, alleging it ready restraint of you, Sir, if I should in any respect was imposs;ble for them so to do. I apprehend, trespass upon the rules of the House. Sir, I claim Sir, that the Member for Clare did expressly my right to sit and vote in Parliament as the Repre the same thing. The Speaker having tendered sentative of the county of Clare without taking th e to him the oath of supremacy according to his opi. Oath of Supremacy. lam ready to take the Oath nion, and the Member having declined to take of Allegiance provided by the recent statute it, was ordered to withdraw. Those Members did for the relief of his Majesty's Romeo Catholic what the Member for Clare has done. They stated subjects if it be deemed necessary. I should take it their objections, and were ordered to withdraw. B u t whether the House shall be of opinion that I ought they did not address any argument to the H ouse to take the new oath, whether lam to take both s or upon the subject; in my opinion they were ince- whether lam to take the latter only, I shall be con pable of doing so, for they were not capable of being tent to take the risk of sitting and voting in this present until they were qualified to sit by law. The House at my own hszarp. My claim is to sit and case of Archdale was pretty nearly the same; vote in this House. I sin returned, duly elected, he was not a Member of the Convention Par- by the proper officer, Member for Clare. By that liament, he was called to the table of the House, return that a great majority of the legal voters of the the oaths were tendered to him, he declined to take county of Clare voted for my return—that return them, and was ordered to withdraw. Ihe terms was better confirmed by a Committee of this House, in which he signified his disinclination to take the —confirmed by the unanimous decision of that oaths, was not the same as those of Sir 11. Monson Committee. I have therefore as good a right to sit and Viscount Fanshawe. They were not permitted and vote in this House, according to the principles to address any arguments to the House. Then, i n of the Constitution as any of the Honourable and the case of Mr. Wilkes, which my Right H on . F r i en d Right Honourable Members by whom I am now thought was a good foundation for thinking that the surrounded. The voice of the people has said—l Member for Clare should be heard at the table, am the Representative of the people of the county of Mr. Wilks was brought up in custody of the Mar- Clan, and I now stand here upon constitutional shat of the King's Bench, arid appeared at the bar of grounds, claiming to sit and rote in this House. — the House. But before he was examined, or any That Statute merely enjoins that Christians of every thing passed, he desired to put this preliminary denomination shall take the oath of allegiance, which question to the House, whether or not, as he had is more willing to take than I am. It not only not taken the meths, and had not presented his qua- requires the subscribing to this oath, but it pro lifications at the table—whether he had subjected vides remedies exceedingly extensive and, awful himself to the penalties prescribed by the' Act for the purpose of punishing those• who pre of Charles 11. He was ordered to withdraw ; the sume to sit without taking them—amongst those subject was referred to the House, and their opi- is the penal sum of 5001., to which I feel it nion delivered to him, that there was nothing in necessary here merely to advert in general ter ins, as I the Act, which prevented him from appear- shall have to speak more largely on that subject ing at th e bar. Independently, Sir, of these 'hereafter. In that Act I find a clause, in se hich precedents, I think the question may be fairly by a courteous use of language I am called a left to b e t r i e d by common sense. Assuming Papist, and this clause I think worthy of som e that th e oa th of Supremacy is in force accord. observation. The object of it is manifest by ing to the decision of the law, assuming that the oath its title. It is, I think, quite plain, that as long as of supremacy should be taken by the Member for that Act remained in force it was impossible for a Clare, I apprehend that it would be quite impossible Catholic to sit for any county. I found a reference for him to be present at our arguments, or that the I o that clause in one of the Statue-boooks belon2ing td Hous e s h ou ld p e rmit him to take part in them. The the li . btary of this House, and that Act was repealed law subjects a Member, if he do not take the oaths in the time of William and Mary. At the period o f to heavy p ena lties, and I apprehend if there were the Legislature between the countries an important doubt upon the subject, the House ought not to alteration took place in the law. By the Act of subject itself to an infraction of the law. The rules Union, the pains and penalties against sitting w ith_ of th e H ouse are decided by the body of the House, out taking the oaths were taken away —(Mr. O'Con- The object of the individual is to be heard, that ob- nell here read the clause referred to.)—This appears ject w ill b e eq ually answered by hearing him at the to me so plain, that no lawyer can controvert it, bar as a t t h e t a ble. By hearing him at the bar he that no Judge can doubt its construction. It will be exempt from 'those penalties which would is Sir, upon these grounds that 1 claim to sit an d otherwise attach to him if heard at the table. There- vote in this House. First, under Act of William fore for his own security it will be better that that and Mary; secondly, under the Union; having course be adopted. Under these circumstances, the taken the oaths prescribed under tha R e li e f case being an individual one, resting upon the con- Bill. I am extremely! unwilling to trespass struction of an Act of Parharlunt, 1 think it would on the patience of the House, but 1 must put it to be right to give to the individual the privilege and you in your judicial character, shether, as I have opportu n ity of stating his case by himsel, his Counsel, shown the Act of Union did not take away all the or hi s agents . I s h o uld think, Sir, the public interest previous obstructions obstructions to my sitting is greatly/concerned in taking care that we act ace and voting in this House. if I stood on that cordi ng tr f orm . Some people, I know, think these Act alone 1 should stand firmly among this assembly matters of very little importance, and would hold of Christians and Gentlemen without any fear that them u p to r ;di cu le.—(Hear, hear.)—Now, my either the law of the land, or the practice of Honourable Friend who put a question, appears this House could prevent me from doing to have an impression that the douse of Corn. so. I come now to the next point, I mean mons ou g ht riot t o permit Mr. O'Connell in the Relief Bill which does away the direc the first pl ace t o be heard. But even as to ad- lions of the Act of Union. I contend that the mittin g him to the table, I should say, that the direction to take the Oath of Supremacy is now at custom was o f a dmitting him to the table, at an end. If I take up this statute I find that first, to take the oath without any certificate those directions are wholly abolished. This is a that he had taken any before the Lord High Steward. great enactments, embracing in its operations not The case of Mr. Archdale was a strong one; the only Catholics and Dissenters of all classes but prima facie evidence was that he had not corn- Protestants, likewise as a representative of the plied with the rules out of doors, and yet that people, li have a right to claim the benefit of a law he was admitted into the House. If an individual which is common to all. I think that there is sufficient does not take the oath before the Lord High evidence before the House that this right cannot be Steward, he is subject to heavy penalties.' Those questioned, it requires no extraordinary effort in oaths were for the satisfaction of the Crown. The c onstruing this Act of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) — practice of requiring a ceirtiticate is not very strictly I only claim to be allowed the same as other per adhered to, and is only a practice of modern sons claim, for instance as the Earl of Surrey claims times. I have taken my seat myself without to sit in this House. I contend that this Act is not being called upon t o produce the certificate intended to exclude me, and that if the 2d section I think the course, Sir, you adopted the other even- does not aid, it certainly does not injure my rights ing was perfectly correct , an d I now think it right in this House. I claim to sit, in the exercise to move that the M em b er f or th e coun ty of Clare of a civil right, and which right, I humbly submit, be heard at the bar, by hi mse lf, his counsel or agents, cannot be denied me. I have been induced to recur in r espect of his cl a im t o s it an d vote in Par- to every possible objection that may be made, be liament without taking the oath of supremacy. cause not being entitled to a reply, I should hare no Mr. C. W. W. WYNNE—I really do not feel, chance of being able to meet them but by antici- Sir, that there is any difference whatever between pation. With regard to the exceptions, I contend the Hon. Member for the county of Clare's being the h tliep ar r t e l be a l t id th a e ny tab d l n e n o g r er at fr t n h m e bar. adni itt l in r g eal n ly n do not that they do not exclude con tend for me from the rea enjoy the A ment of right I . I have d ct of Parliament care full y and attentivel y throu g h, and I found no such ex ce p tion in it, as aff e c t i ng ci vi l Member, duly elected, from being heard at rights. Whether the right to sit and vote in Par your table ; nor do I see any difference between admitting him to he heard at the table, and liament be a civil right, I apprehend can an Member of the Hous e o f L o rds bein admitted hardly be disputed , for if it be no t a civil right , g wit hin that House, being heard from the floor. I, what is it ? Blackstone makes two grand divisions for one, therefore, shall be quite ready to concur of rights and wrongs, and in his class of civil rights, he places the act of sitting and voting in Parliament. ill the motion of the Right Honourable Gentleman. I have taken the oath s of qualification. Mine is a case Mr. BROUGHAM—My Right Hon. Friend that cannot be drawn into l a precedent—it can has anticipated the few observations I had intended nev er occur again, and make think that the opposite in the view of the question totally ; for I to t nake. I differ from the Right Hors. Gentleman House will determinedvtiodumala e an Act of Outlawry against a single (Hear, hear, hear.) think the precedents that have been cited are —lf it wasintendedt. L t meet my case why such us will bear out my first proposition, Member of the county of Clare to be heard at. But I that the table of this house is the right place for the have not specified ( otid cries of hear, hear.)— :ecord, if it was . tended to exclude me by the Ihe fact was wellnnk intended it was even a matter of certainly do not now mean to contend for his being late act, who themaindividual that will now attempt heard at the table; for in following the one line of son- construction upon it ? The think I should be putting the House to the necessity duct rather than the other, according to precedent; I mwords puttingof thelatewacretnagr be henceforth diseonet? "that i„ all disabilities shall claim, and I submit , that is what I In t u h e a ( t I have general re of hearing a very unnecessary discussion, if were to urge my views (which lam prepared to urge' ifgeneral enactment in my favour. — necessary) of the grounds on which I think Mr. cital and it is not neeessary for me absolutely to convince yo'* • of my right, for if there is any doubt, I am entitled to the benefit of that doubt.—(Hear, hear, Oa cheers.)-1 strold before the House and claim a cam stitutional right. I have been legal:y returned t(s sit as Member for Clare, and I feel it as an impera tive duty to those who sent me here, to require that the question should now be decided.—(Hear, hear.) It was said by all those who advocated the Bill for the relief of the Catholics, that it was to compensate the wrongs Of an injured nation. (Hear.) But to. deny one the civil right to which I em entitled, IS not the way to heal those wrongs. My title to a seat in this House is dear and distinct, and I stand before you, and demand the benefit of the Act, ac cording to the true spirit anti meaning of the legis • - lature. (The Hon. Member sat down amidst laud' cheering.) A general conversation here ensued between the Members, which lasted for several minutes, after which The SOLICITOR-GENERAL rose and ad dressed the Iltused The Hon. Member for Clare having now withdrawn, after stating the reason which he considers entitle him to take his seat, sod which I must say he has done with that temper and Rio:lei-a:ion which cnild hardly have been ex- pected—(hear, hear.) —and in a manner that has' done him craa, both as a man and a gentlensaa.' (Hear, hear, and cheers.) —It now, therefore, be- • comes our duty calmly to discuss the question, an° I hope this will be done without any reference t°' party feeling. [The Hon. and Learned Member was speakivg when we left the House.) SOCIETY for the PROTECTION of RV.] GIiBJS LIBERTY. On Saterday, the 18th Annual Meeting of the Protestant Society for the protection of Relieve ° Liberty was held at the City of London Tavern. At eleven o'clock Lord EBILINGTON was UTlllllk tnously called to the Chair. The room was crowd -. ed, principally with females. The busin e ss of the! day was opened with prayer. The Secretary read the report, and resolution declaratory of the principles entertained in the re" . port were then moved and agreed to. The Rev. D. STYLES said, that when he he 4 lea honour of addressing that meeting , he did ee l ' * • a n unemancipated Dissenter; but now he stop d free arid regenerated, and could hold his head as hiff n kr the proudest . Episcopalian.—(Applause.) Rev. Gentleman concluded by moving the following. resolution : " That while this meeting are gratified to observe the recognition of the principles of religious libel,' by the Ministers of the Crown and the Britio Senate, and the partial removal of tests and P P scriptions, they regret to learn that still, irtiLegl individual wrongs are inflicted that violate such free" r dom ; that still pecuniary claims for tolls, PO, s rates, and tithes, have improperly been made; ti' still the dissenting poor have been unjustly es eluded from public charity ; that still riots distill"' their worship; and that still clergymen have rej fused to fulfil the . daties towards them, which rear gion and the law retiaire ; and that many ,eirc ut '' stances have occurred to prove the necessity this institution, to redressinjuries inflicted, and Pr e ' vent evils that would else occur." The resolution was put at.d carried .unanirnottelr at Mr. O'CONNELL here presented himself CO . 11 1 notified to meeting, and was received with loud and reiterate cheers. rnet it h l a i s e be sh e i r d i Fus ‘ ; eg roltr gentleman near me, that this is a , fit occasion which to express my sentiments upon the ,Itsteo a an re d gpcc ° which brought me here. I have come ameng" . l. uninvited, and in my individual capacity, and . feel that I stand here as a sort otrepresentative?' of the talent, for of that I am incapable, but ott! F t i ,f .. feelings, the heart-warm feelings of ; the, Ireland.—(Loud applause.)—My L o rdp Z t rr a i' ' here in the name of my country, to return the exertions made in our - favour brour digerati* brethten.—(Applau4e.)--I h ae e co me here - to .pola out my thankfulness for the support which you ba d , given to the great cause of my countay, of this meeting, I knew not of your fiustnerstietiN until I accidentally learned it in . a neiiipipti:...„_„: read your proceedings 'with undivideel and I came here this morning glowing with tliral t l , for your kindness. The Hon. Gentlem'en; some further observations, kindly thanked the MOf i l: i;ig for their attention, and shortly after.7ltrde dt ew amidst acclamations. ree d'to sad. l'he several resolutions were then ag r Ithanis being voted to the Noble Chairman, at ~ ut o'clock' the meeting separated. EXT,ENS EVE FIRE AT CHELSEA. Oise of tht. most extensive, as well as destructict,' fires th:kt hart h a pp ened in or near the Metropolis fe' some time past took place at Chelsea vesterdal,wl2,el; the whole of that immense pileof dorrc D °l "‘t . and Sons' 111ot...cloth manufactory, was v and we regret :o . state, that the circumstan ces , si i t , tending this dreadfu,l calamity leave no doubt c" having been the n'ork of some wicked ante ndiart The tire broke out at t',vo o'clock in t he afterneetily_ and, when once igrtitit,:• was so instantaneo; in its operations, that t‘la whole of the .uito part of the building, whicis c overs mull o f all acre of ground, sent forts, one msfe pe i flame, which raged in the most v; err.ific 111!",,i0 possible until everything within its ra n g / he► destroyed. Such was the intensity a 1 7," a. that, although the factory extends bs:t.i.,od sixty yards back from the road, it was almost impossible to pass along it. Mr. Dovro.'l,,a;- jun., who lives in the neighbourhood, was soon u" - the spot, and, with the assistance of his neighbour: rescued forty or fifty pieces of oil :cloth...from the; rescued lower part of the premises. They were also enabt g , to save the iron chest which contained their ben,• and valuable papers. In the centre of the' builirort, is a cistern, which contained about nine pi Pea linseed oil; a great quantity of paint was 110,1 f the premises, which, with the combustible'quaOlAr all the materials used in the business, fed ilfg "0, vowing element, so that, in twenty minutes 'l .r o ,i , e, its commencement, the fire was at its height; !tot roof shortly after fell in, and the immense wall* '' , oo o' least sixty feet high) began to shake in the 11 :,o: frightful manner. The stables and carpenteta' l 7:s2. , ' which were situated to the westward of ..,lf ing, had caught fire, and were burning fur i°l ;;o when it was recollected that four valuable tin b r; occupied the former building. As soon as' ) tbil:or came known, several of Messrs. Downing's' :"T.,",• - ii . men rushed in, and happily succeeded in rea,Tcor,. the affrighted animals, but not until one ha ll - or fered, though not materially. Mr. Dowiting° • riages were also saved. • The premises had not been so full o f Ma°. b' tured goods for years. One pile of oil cloth n 43,,, . i lg t/' had been made for the Duke of Devonsbite4 A ' 01 worth 9001., was wholly destroyed. The tisn" - t elli was quite new, and its magnitude may be.estiauntier when we state that the mere ske leton was. •44tbr, between two and three years itio at an 12,000/. The loss occasioned to the firth' fire will not be less than 30,0001., and we 10 ; to add that not one shilling's worth . of it tir , sured. BIRTHS. At Bombay, on the 15th of Jan. last, Lady of a slaugter. On the 17th inst., Mrs. James Chart, of Stren 7 ' common, of a son. On the 15th Dec., at sea, ou board the East lea' , _ I Calcutta, the lady of A. Morgan, Esq. , of a 0 0 . j F On the 15th inst., the lady of Mr. H. B. nrif' 1% Primrose-street, of a daughter. taro On the 9th inst., at Clifton, the wife of C a p Hawley, of a son. On the 12th inst., the wife of Mr. Armstrong, tioneer, New Bridge -street, Blackfriars; of a clasie ! ..t/se Psinvan and PUBLISKID by iil74D9 Orrin, 112, Itrahasi, 1,;