The Sun. — London, England, 1829-04-11 00:00:00

ss .-he o h t e _ ,Torwou on an- occasion like the present, 51y'cannot but regard it as the greatest wetting s I f ee l . this has - - been brought forward in bay lo which it has never been brought forward before. "nog) able, my Lords, to bring forward the measure and "al On others to make sacrifices, as those who have first set the example, and made a sacrifioe stf their best feelings. It is true that those who for a number of years have laboured together have thought proper to divide on this great measure. We ought, my Lords, to consider the nature of things, and the nature of the case. It is not a state of armed men to be put down by arms ; it is a state of things unheard of before. I think the measure would have been better if passed .earlier, but it had better be passed now than at ,a later period. Ido not believe that this. or any other measure, singly can organise those disorders Which have existed in that country, and at once restore it to tranquillity, labouring as it does under such a corn- Plieation of misfortunes. It is said, has it not been in a state of confusion? my answer is, it is tree it has been in a state of confusion from a very long period until now. But the reason has been that there has been that state of exclusion which would irritate any set of people, and throw any country into confusion. You have deprived people Who have known better days, of that which they have considered their rights. The measure wh ich accompanies this will, I apprehend, be a great cor . reetion of the evils that have existed, for aristocracy has always ,a very gr ea t t en d ency t o t h row i n t o a s t a t e o f con fusion' the lower classes of the people. Now, I really t hink that the Bill before your Lordships, though it c annot alter the distressed state of Ireland iu every respect, yet it will grea tl y b ene fit an d c o ntribute to its happiness I am perfectly satisfied that those Noble Lords, who have with such exertion opposed this measure, would sacrifice that oosition if they thought such s eaults would f o ll ow, and t hat this measure would be the alaa/c, as I have no doubt it will. The Bishop of Noitwicia and the Duke of ATUOL rose together. The Bi s h op of NORWICH had precedence—He felt the greatest pain in differing from the Noble Lord who had s poken first. Ile was sure that if the Noble Lord had read Locke and Towgoo-1, to which he had referred with the attention of which he was capable, he would not have so long argued the narrow-minded conclusion which he had. With respect to the sermon which had been referred to, he could only say, that a minister of the Gospel very ill remembered that peace and good-will, who could acri- I llostioultly oppose that measure which was to promote the Peace and good-will, which was calculated for the good of all mankind. Lord ELDON explained. The Duke of ATHOL rose to answer the question of the Noble and Learned Lord, how it came that there should be a majority on this occasion, made up by those Who had voted in a different way? When this measure Was brought forward he considered that Ireland was cas the very edge of a volcano, and he was anxious that it should not break in upon it. In 1774 be succeeded to the title of his family. Since that period he had been a zealous member of the C hurch. of E ng l an d, an d h e never b a d nor ever wou ld dOSO Y thing but what was in favour of that Church. In the votes which he had given he was actuated by a sense of thitaa He truly believed that those who opposed the Bill would soon have their appreheneione set at rest with re spect to the Church of England. He could not let this evening pass without making some observations on the ex citement which had been used, he would not say in this House, but by public advertisement ; and sentiments that had been tsptied to create a spirit of discord. The Noble Duke he n..proceeded to read a parapraph cut from the Edin burgh Eve nin9 courant, stating that the anti-Catholic petition lay for signature at certain places. Then it proceeded to say—i , People of Scotland, think what it is to have a Popish Government, a Popish Par "aulent, a Popish Provost and Magistrates, and a Papist Church."—(Here the Noble Duke had great dif illenity in reading the paper, and there was great laughter and confusion.)—The Noble Duke continued—there was greet excitement created by this. At the age at which he . had now arrived, he did not think it possible for him to tee • this Bill fully enforced, but many who had voted for and . against this question would have the satisfaction nf seeing that they bad done that which was consistent With propriety, and which would contribute to the happi 'Wee of society. Those who had voted against it would see that t hey, hid formed an erroneous impr es sion, and would he " I st. first to regret the position they had taken. Lord ABINGDON conceived that this Bill would take away the benefit of the Protestant Constitution. Re considered this the act of a Minister who brought it f orward for his own ambition, rather than the interests of the country. Many of his best friends were Catholics, and he begged to express his public opinion, separated from ti4 S 'private friendship and esteem which he had for them, .7(Hear, h e a r .)—ll li e ne there to di sc h arge a p u bli c p rotestant, The Constitutions, to all int e nt s an d p urposes , was rruteek in t, and by Protestantism he understood the King Protesting against any interference of the Pope either with the civil or temporal affairs of the state. To this he objected, and wo u ld co ntinue to do so.---(Hear.)—The question had been most ably discussed. He had much more to say, but would not occupy t h e i r Lordships' time. for 0 years he had been a staunch supporter of his Ma jesty's Ministry. Had similar measures to the pre sent been brought into their Lordships' House at an- Other period, it would have been impossible in the Government which had gene before to have succeeded in carrying the measure. He should be glad to know after the Passing of this Bill what the Noble Duke at the bead of the Ministry would do, if the Pope with his seven ',Vied boots were toanarch into the door of the House— (Great laughter. )—afterwards present them to the Noble Lord . on the Woolsack, and afterwards make the best of his way out again. He could not thick it impossible, but by this Bill the King might be separated from the Throue, who ought to be maintained there in the midst of a Protestant Religion. After a national religion had been impressed into the ntinds of the people rational policy Would be adopted. He had intended to have gone at , Nth into this measure, but it was impossible to make himself clearly understood, and he would therefore lease it te the better pert of the House to decide. Lord hIIDDLETON had been for twenty-nine years a member of this House, and had never troubled it by teein g any thing on the subject of reform. Having been 4rtp supporter of the Protestant religion, he hoped their kordshipe would permit him to state the reasons why he nut- vote against the third reading of this Bill. He t6old give hi s c on sc i e nti o us a n d i n d e p e ndent vote for measure, and having said that he should say:no more ; halthough he agreed with the principle of the measure, yet e a sps not quite 'satisfied with the securities proposed. The Duke of NEWCASTLE—I thought that the rea t''hTs which th e N o ble Duke gave for bringing forward . 14 measure seemed so trifling, and so perfectly nu -1,4t°,17, that he was quite astonished how Noble Lords , s _7 (l 'd at all feel satisfied with the statement. Is it Ers e ilde for any man who loves his country, who loves ,9 4 God, and who has a regard for his King, to „tante down to this House, and propose to upset all the laws t 'f our country, and break down the whole of our Protestant C onstitution—and fur what ? For those trifling reasons Riven by the Noble Duke ? Why, it is so inconsistent limit I should have supposed that no person could have ,tebniittpd to it. Nor can I conceive any time more dun &roue than the present for time passing of such a measure. `Lord ROUEN—i trust that pus . Lordships will forgive Ile for offering myself to the attention of your Lordships, . w hich will only be but fora very few minute, but I could hot - Content myself with giving a silent vote on what I t toseeiv e to be the most important question that ever ' 4l O e before the House. For the last 18 years I h ave be en in the h a bit in this and the other House o f gi v i ng decided vote against the Catholics. It has ever been . / 41' opinion that it is impossible to give security to the ie r °tesnt Church except by exclusion of Caolics. With ' r est f t ee a lings I came to the consideration of th the question Zith the recommendation in his Majesty's speech before 's and with many pitiful attempts endeavoured to lay 3 d. former opinions, and put away former views, inquiring feelings whether I could alter my sentiments. Y.Lorda, I am now free to corafess, that after 'loch in ,ttritY and such deliberation—that after examining into tWe new features which I was told the cause pre -44:40; and which had been the occ a sion of the great l if a ,nge that ,had taken place in the opinions of many Lordehipi--I confess I cannot change my M,._ et t'a• I cannot nee any thing to induce me to sup ‘e titer is lees dan now in ving to e oman e„ h g ohm the privileges er which they demand, th than there .i when this question last occupied the House. t v !, Lords, I aio one of thoce who differ from those br uel e Lords Who ceinceiee that the 'settler:yet %. _ l „hil question will give tranquillity to Ir e land.—(Che e rs. ) h think p er h a p s a momen t ar y ca l m ma y b e p ro d uce d, 4 1 I do believe it will not have the effect of removing any t lntt POWer which the Catholic s ex have over the people, Ido believe the effect of the pected passing of this uute has already caused an increase of the emigration v he Proteetants of that country. I b e li eve the Catholic - &ion is the same, has the same object and spirit, notwith . log whit has been stated respecting it, that it had in V 2 0.1 eonceive the time objection exists now that existed .-u re. le the PWe of the teleaerereeand l'hae , e VT* • 6 • l as g I in Ireland to know that this measure never will, `never can, satisfy the Catholics.—( Hear. )--My Lords, I N been told se by themselves, they have declared it openly -and manfully, and I honour_them for it.--(Hear, hear.)—l agree with a speech made by a Noble Lord the other night who sat On an opposite side, that after your Lordships have granted this ivestion, there will be behind it a Catholic Question still to be disposed of.— I believe the existence of the Protestant Church in Ireland will be the next question you will hive to consider. I know the Church of Eaglathl mid Ireland are but human institutions, and as such, are liable to error. I cannot but lament the line of conduct which has been adopted on this subject by some of the Right Rev. Prelates—(Great cheer•.)—l cannot but regret when, looking to that Bench for the champions, not of a Protestant party, but of a Protestant faith—when I heard it stated in this House that PoPery was not idolatry—when I heard it said there was little difference between the Popish and English Churches—when I heard it said, if a man be but sincere it matters not what his religious views are—when looking to that Bench for the support of wisdom, I cannot but deeply regret, my Lords, that I should have heard only that which was calculated to distress the feelings. I have read in history that there have existed Churches who hive increased in worldly splendour, but who have forgotten their first love. I say nut that this is the case ; hut if it be the case with the Church of England, I believe the passing of this measure will be a very powerful rod in working its destruction. With regard to this Bill introduced by the Noble Duke, I differ in opinion with Noble Lords upon it, with whom I shall vote on the present occasion, for I think, conceiving that no securities can be given to the Protestant Church but the exclusion of the Catholics, it is the best Bill that could be presented. If your Lordships once admit Catholics into Parliament, I think you cannot throw the door too open, nor legislate too liberally for them. I give every credit to the Noble Duke and the Right Hon. Gentleman, an early friend of my own, in another place, for the anxieties they have felt in bringing forward, and the motives that have induced them to bring forward this subject, thought I cannot agree with them. There is alai another part of the Bill which makes it more acceptable in my view than in that of some Noble Lords, which is, that it no where recognises the power of the Pope even in a spiritual manner. However much too some Noble Lords might be inclined to think the payment of the Catholic Clergy a step of expe diency, I conceive: your Lordships never will do such a thing as to pay men, however respectable in themselves, to preach and teach doctrines which your Lordships declare superstitious and idolatrous. My Lords, I cannot sit down without congratulating the Noble Lords on the opposite side of the House, which I do fiom my heart, on the victory they have obtained. I have been op posed to them throughout my political life; but I honour them for the end they have accomplished by their consist ency, and would not pluck a single leaf from the laurels they have won ; particularly one Noble Earl, who is not now in his seat, whose fairness on some occasions has left him almost single in maintaiaing this cause. My Lords, I shall as conscientiously give my vote against this measure as the Noble Lord will who has just sat down, in favour of it. I conceive it to be a sacrifice of Protestant principle to temporary expediency; therefore I shall take the opportunity of entering my protest against it. The Bishop of LICHFIELD next addressed the House, but in a tone of voice so low as to be almost wholly inaudible below the bar. We understood him, however, to contend that the Bill might be passed with out any danger to the Established Church. If he was in error in this opinion, he would at all events have the satis faction of reflecting that he had acted to the dictates of his conscience. He trusted, however, that the most beneficial effects would result from the present Bill, and he also trusted that the Noble Lori.' (Eldon) who had for so long a period strenuously opposed, and upon conscien tious grounds, the passing of such a measure, would yet live to see the day when lie would rejoice that the disabi lities of the Roman Catholics had been removed. The Duke of NEWCASTLE explained, but the cries of question were se general that we could not hear a syllable of what he uttered. The Duke of WELLINGTON and Lord FALMOUTH both rose at the same moment, but the latter gave way, and the Noble Duke said that he had required no explana tion from the Noble Duke on the cross benches (Newcastle). Lord FALMOUTH then rose, amidst reiterated cries of question, which for a considerable time prevented him from obtaining a -bearing. He at length, however, succeeded iu obtaining the attention of the House, arid proceeded to the following effect .—He did not mean, he said, to follow the Rev. Prelate through all the argu ments he had advanced, for at least it was but an odious task to follow the arguments of a Rev. Prelate in favour of the Catholics, and he should do so as concisely as possible. The present Bill, which he supposed would be brought to a conclusion that night, was carried through the House in nine short days. On no former occasion had a Bill at all approaching to such importance been so hurried through the House.—(Hear, hear.)—ln nine short days would that far-famed Constitution be unsettled which was Ithe noblest work of patriotism, consummated by wisdom. He was not there to compliment the conduct of those who turned round on the principles they had advocated all their lives, and then say they had made enormous sacrifices, nor to compliment prelates who had de termined to give political power to Catholics, the ancient and consistent enemies of the Protestant Church. On all former occasions on which Bina had been brought in, s granting political power to Catholics, securities had been offered for the protection of the Protestant Church. He did not think that the securities offered were good or sufficient, but certainly no Bill was so destitute of any se curity which had ever before been proposed to Parliament. He would read an extract from one of the former Bills.— (Cries of no, no—question, question.)—He objected to this Bill in all its parts ; lie objected to the time it was brought forward ; he objected to the way in which it was brought fbrward.—(Flear, hear.)—lt was brought forward at a time peculiarly unfavourable—look at the amount of the debt. Look at the state of your manufac tures—look at the state of your commerce—look at the state of your agriculture, arid then say whether this was a time to bring forward any measure that even risked lessening the confidence of the people in the institutions of the country. It was said the Protestant Church was founded on a rock, and could not be moved ; but there was a difference between the foundation and the superstructure. The Protestant religion was itself a rock that could never be moved ; but the establishment of that re ligion was the superstructure that was the work of human hands, and was open to attacks from without. This Bill threw down the outworks, and supplied the means of undermining the superstructure ; he hoped it would not be undermined and destroyed. It was said the Ro man Catholic religion was not the same, but they say themselves that it still remained unchanged. Will you not believe them? Suppose that a gallant officer were to meet a Catholic officer in the street, and to say to him you Catholicj soldiers fight bravely —you keep in the same tents with us—you march in the same ranks— you mount the same breach, and you lie in the same grave—l will support your Bill in Par liament, for besides all this your religion has undergone a change. The Catholic soldier would reply, my religion has undergone no change, my religion is unchangeable. The gallant officer might reply, 0, nonsense, your religion is changed, the march of intellect has reached you as well as others, and I will support your Bill in Parliament. This was the sort of reasoning on which the Bill had been sup ported in opposition to the Catholics. It was said Dr. Doyle had acknowledged that the Protestant church was a Chris tian church, but Dr. Doyle had written in every way, and he could not pay much attention to his aeknow ledgments.—(Hear, hear, hear. )—He did not mean to at tack the conduct of the Noble and Learned - Lord, who had been enlightened on the subject by his last three months' study ; but if he had not been so enlightened it was pretty evident that he might have had perhaps six years of retirement afforded him for study. If this Bill were passed, it would be against the sense of the people. The Protestant petitions in favour of the Bill were 380 ; the Protestant petitions against the Bill were 1822 ; and if the numbers by whom the petitions were signed were estimated, he was confident, instead of four or Ave to one, there would be found twenty to one. It was therefore impossible to say the Bill was not against the feelings of the people. Even those who were not capable of writing their names to petitions, had understanding enough to know that the Catholics objected to the circulation of the Bible without note or comment, that was, without their own adulteration. There were no more respectable body of men in any country than the Clergy of the Church of England, and they were 19 to 20 against the Bill. The yeomanry of England were also much against it. There never once had been before lArliament r Bill' Which was ~o decidedly opporred to the feelings of the people. A Noble Friend of his from Scotland had said that the feelings of the people in that country were strongly opposed to the Bill, lie had a great respect for Scotland, but he (lid not want any Scotch philosophy in that House.—(Laughter.) The Noble Duke's achievements were to be envied not by military men only, but by every man in the world, but he could not envy him his Bill for Catholic Emancipation, which he thought an unsuitable associate for the glories of Waterloo. The Duke of CPAI.P.RL4ND—My Lorille; I feel it - 4 -ey i thity!ed'iay a fora words to your Lordeirips,in addition to what I- have formerly said in reference to the measure before the House ; having taken part in these proceedings and well considered the subject in all its bearings, I - have seen nothing which can induce me to change that opinion which I have entertained throughout the dis cussions which have taken place on • this most import ant question ; but in stating my apposition to , the Roman Catholic Relief Bill, I beg it to be distinctly understood that I mean no hostility against the Roman Ca tholics themselves.—(Hear.) —l entertain a high respect for many of those Who profess that religion ; at the same time, my Lords, I will say, that though T feel myself called upon to oppose the measure, yet, if hereafter I should see auything to cause me to change the opinion I at present hold, no man would be more ready at once to acknowledge it. In the mean time I must conscientiously vote against the measure. The Duke of SUSSEX thought it to be his duty to state his opinion in relation to the present most im portant measure; it gave him considerable pain to think that full justice had not been done to his Ma jesty's Government—(hear)—that justice which they had a right to expect had not been done them. The Noble Duke, at the bead of the Administration, had said that there were circumstances which rendered imperative the present measures; to those of their Lordships who had never been in a Cabinet, he would say that there were questions connected with state affairs which it would not be expedient to answer.—(Hear, hear.) — He was glad to hear what fell from a Noble and Learned Lord in the early course of the debate; that Noble and Learned Lord had said that•if the present measures passed into a law, he would lend his influence to soften pubge opinion in relation to the question. If he (the Del'e of Sussex) understood the law of the country, it was that there should be equal law and equal right for all his Majesty's subjects. The whole of Magna Charts iitself were these, if he mis took not—" Nulli vendamus, nulli negamus, nulli de feramus, nulli legamus."—(Hear.)—He (the Duke of Sussex) had most conscientiously followed the Noble Duke at the head of the Government as a faithful and grateful soldier.—(Hear.)_That Noble Duke had no follower in his army who was more sincerely attached to the mea sures which be had brought forward ; and splendid as his victories have been, and signal as hie triumphs, the one he had now achieved would surpass them all ; millions of his fellow-subjects would thank him for what he tad done. In conclusion, lie (the Duke of Sussex) would assure their Lordships that be never felt more gratified in his life than be did at the present moment.--(Hear.) The Bishop of BATH and WELLS said he was satis fied that the sense of the nation was against the present measure; Le relied upon that Almighty Power who had hitherto so wonderfully preserved the country. He (the Bishop of Bath and Wells) should sit down conscien tiously believing that he had discharged his duty. Lord REDESDALE rose amidst loud cries of " Ques-, tion," which lasted for some time. 'I he Noble Earl said that he apprehended the worst consequences, and nothing less than the subversion of the Protestant religion by the passing of this measure.—(Hear.)—lt was giving poli tical power to the avowed and determined enemies of Protestant ascendancy. He felt confident it would not be a measure of peace, as its supporters seemed to think, to Ireland. The greatest danger was to be apprehended from the Catholic priests and the Catholic gentry. • They were told that the Catholic religion was not what it was a century ago.—(The cries of " Question" here became very loud, and it was some time before a single word could be understood.) Every true Protestant ought to support the Protestant Constitution. He felt bound to enter his protest against the present measure. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—I will not detain proof that there is nothing like surprise. But the Noble Earl has complained of the manner the question has been carried through this House. Now, my Lords, I assert that no deliberations were ever better attended to than this. Never were so many hours given to the discussion of any measure as have been given to this ; nor has any question been ever so fairly defeated. My Lords, it is true that this Bill should be carried before the Easter holidays, but not because I am anxious of preventing the public from expressing their opinions upon it. No; for I contend that the public have had the opportunity of expressing their sentiments, and my object is to put an end to the agitation, not of the country, for time exists there; but in London, where the chief agitation exists; and even there not only the middle classes, but even the higher and lower, are all favourable to emancipation. The Noble and Learned Lord entered upon a long discussion as to the Oath of Supremacy. I should like to know, my Lords, whether this Bill will make one more individual in the country who will not take the Oath of Supremacy. What does this Bill do ? It adds five or six Noble Lords to this House, and a certain number of persons to the other House, who would not take the Oath of Supremacy. But, my Lords, let us look back to the history of the country. Your Lordships will perceive that many Peers sat in the House without ever taking that oath. Your Lordships will recollect these oaths were framed for the purpose of opposing a Papist Sove reig,tt and a Popish successor then in existence. There were none such at present, and therefore there could be no possibility of danger.—(Hear, hear.)—The Noble and Lear►►ed Lord says that this Bill affords no security. If mischief were apprehended from this measure, then I should think it necessary that security should be required. But, my Lords, what securities can you have, in those securities that were formerly required there would I conceive be the greatest danger. This Bill will leave the church un touched and the Catholic religion also untouched.— (Hear, hear.)--All that it does is to admit Catho- lies to the House of Lords and the House of Commons. The Noble Earl talked of the dangers of Popery, and re ferred to the time of Philip and Mary, and he also intro duced the letter of Dr. Doyle, and the Marriage Act ; but my Lords, these have nothing at all to do with the ques tion.—(Loud cheers.)—With respect to what the Noble Earl has said said relative to the Marriage Act, I shall only observe, that if a man does not choose to submit himself to the sentence of the Catholic Bishop and the Pope, that sentence could not be carried into execution. Such a sentence could not stand for a single moment against the decision of our Ecclesiastical Coats ; nor could it stand against the decision of the commonest court of law. The power of the Pope under such circum stances might be compared to that of the common law against the Catholic Association. The evils of Ireland had been continually increasing at the time when the Noble and Learned Lord was himself a Minister ; but the principle had been adopted, " Let them go on for our successors to settle." That was the way in which things had gone on, but it was felt that they ought to go on so no longer, and therefore the present measure was brought forward. The Noble Lord has said that he disapproves of this Bill, but he disapproves of another proposed by Mr. Pitt. Now, I ask the Noble and Learned Lord if he approved of the blank securities proposed by Mr. Pitt, one of which was that of making a provision for the Catholic- Clergy ? It is true that that measure has not been proposed by me, and I gave my reasons for not doing so, which was, placing the Roman Catholic religion upon the footing with the Established Church. The Noble Lord complains that we will not tell him what our case is; but my Lords, I have already stated what the state of Ireland was in consequence of a long series of mis-governments to which she had been subjected, and if the Noble Lord is not aware of the growth and the existence of those evils, it is indeed most extraordinary to me—(Loud cheers,)—. those evils do exist in that country to an extent unparalleled almost in any country in Europe, and I know of no remedy which can be applied to them, except one which! adverted to on a former occasion, and which it would be desirable to avoid on this Bill.—(Hear.) — My Lords, I am sanguine that this will produce a state of amelioration in Ireland—the higher orders will have a mo tive in promoting tranquillity there; and I trust that they will set an example which will be followed by their infe riors, and that they will live upon good terms with each other. This is all that we ask of them ; and if they should conseut to do so, the country will be quiet—if it is not so—if this measure will not answer—l shall be prepared to come down with the other measures which I trust will prove more efficacious.— My Lords, I have formerly said, in bringing for ward this question that it would subject me to much misconstruction. I regret, my Lords, the separation which has taken place between myself and the Noble and Learned Lord with whom I have so long agreed-1 regret, my Lords, that I have lost the confidence of another Illustrious Lord, and knowing as I did the ancient feelings he entertained of hostility to this measure, even when he was pleased to announce his confidence in me, I did think that this measure would be likely to lead to a separation between me and that Illustrious Peer. My Lords, I did think his confidence valuable, and I regret the loss of it ; but, my Lords, I have not said one word upon this subject, nor have I done one single thing which it was not my duty either to do or say. But, my Lords, in pro portion to my regret at losing his confidence, is my grati tude to those Noble Lords who have given me their support, and my thanks to those Noble Lords opposite, with whom I had no previous connection, and from whom, therefore, I had no reason to the House at this late hour, but I hope I shall be permitted before the close of this question, which has so long occupied the time of the House, to offer a few observations. After the indulgence I have already experienced, I should not feel myself justified in advert ing to the arguments of Noble Lords who had spoken against the measure, after they hail been so completely and so triumphantly refuted. I repeat, it is not neces sary to advert to those arguments, as they possess nothing of novelty to recommend them. It is likewise not neces sary to advert to the long statement made by the Noble and Learned Lord on the cross benches, the whole of which was to impress upon the House that great conflic tions would ensue between the Roman Catholics and Pro testants. He seemed to think that individuals professing the different religions could never agree to sit in Parlia►nent toge ther. lam certain that after this measure is passed it will have the effect of modifying and softening the feelings of the different parties. The Neble Lord who spoke in the early part:of the debate had read some instances of the intolerance of the Roman Catholic Church, and of the necessity of all Catholics to persecute those differing from them in religious matters. I thought that when the Noble Earl made these statements, they were made from some authority entitled to attention, but what was my surprise when I asked the Noble Earl for his authority to hear that it was a speech of Dr. Drongoole, an authority which I can state from my own knowledge is not entitled to the least degree of weight.— We are now, my Lords, on the threshold of a great poli tical event, involving the future happiness and destinies of Ireland. It will be no longer necessary to go over that country by a military force. We have done our duty, and I feel convinced that the Catholics will be satisfied. Well have the Government done their duty, and they are entitled to call upon all parties to do theirs also, by receiving this measure with that gratitude to which it is entitled. Those disabilities are at last removed which so long disgraced the statute-book, and I hope that there will be no disposition to raise the banner of discord. The good sense of both Catholics and Protestants will con sider this measure as one of peace and good will. Under these circumstances I cannot anticipate the possi bility of this measure being rejected, and I sincerely hope that it will be received with all the gratitude which it deserves. In particular, I hope that the Protes tants of the North of Ireland will assist in promoting the exercise of charity, in allaying those dissensions that have so long distracted that country. I also hope that the Roman Catholics will prove their grateful sense of the inestimable benefit which this Bill will confer upon them, by abstaining from the expression of any insulting ebullition of triumph. Such forbearance is due to the supporters of the measure ; and the Roman Catholics are indebted to the Noble Duke for the greatest boon ever conferred upon the people of Ireland. Upon a question such as this I could not expect but that the majority of the Clergy would be found in the ranks of the Opposition ; but I cannot help feeling that there is enough of piety and cha rity in the Christian Church to produce some supporters of this Bill. I cannot withhold my admiration of one Right Reverend Prelate in particular, who during 30 years has zealously advocated the best interests of civil and religious liberty. I cannot forget the expression of another talented and lamented Prelate of that Church—l mean Bishop Heber, who said that with the Catholic claims were connected the best interests of the Established reli gion. It is impossible for me not to allude to another name with which is associated all that is amiable and excellent in the exercise of Christian charity, I mean Dr. Chalmers, who has manifested the most extraordinary zeal in the performance of an arduous duty for which he re ceives less remuneration than is usually bestowed on a country curate, and who declined a preferment in Scot land of great value lest it should interfere with that duty to which he had voluntarily bound himself. —With the consequent authority of such names as these I cannot conceive that this measure will be other than beneficial to the Protestant Church, whilst it will be pro ductive of the most important advantages to the two countries. These are the hopes in which I have freely indulged, and I look for their confirmation to the unanimous vote of this House to-night. expect the cordial and handsome support I have received, and for which I return them my cordial and warm thanks. The Noble Duke then sat down amidst loud cheers, and the cries of question were renewed with increased effect. Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and At a quarter past One o'clock the House divided, when there appeared Contents—Present Proxies 64 —213 Non-Contents—Present Proxies 109 Majority in favour of the Bill lO4 The Bill was then read a third time and passed amidst great cheering. The Forty Shilling Freeholders' Disfranchisement Bill was then read a third time and passed, without a single ob servation. The House adjourned at Two o'clock till Monday. The Duke of Norfolk was in the House during the whole of the debate. Lord HOLLAND, amidst loud cries of Question, rose and said,—my Lords, I claim your attention to a very few sentences which I am bound to utter in answer to a charge made ; against me by a Noble and Learned Lord who addressed you to-night, and I pledge myself not to say one word upon the question. The Noble and Learned Lord seems to have misunderstood what I said on a former occasion, and he has represented me as nothing less than a traitor to my country. That Noble and Learned Lord has stated that I laid it down as a principle that no religious faith should be a bar to political powor. The protest on your Lordship s ' t a bl e w ill prove that such were not my sentiments ; he has also stated that I have advocated principles calculated to destroy the aristocracy of the country. I most distinctly repel that charge. I cannot help saying that I think the charge brought against me is rather of a serious c hara c t e r, and perhaps I may observe it is well for me that he does not retain the office so • often alluded to, that of Attorney-General, or in all probability he would have indicted me, for an attempt to subvert the Succession of the Crown, and to destroy the Aristocracy. TlioSii who know me will acquit me of any such design, and I hope that the Noble and LearnediL or d w ill re t rac t the charge. Lord ELDON explained. The Duke of WELLINGTON then:rose t.nd spoke as f o ll ows : —.My Lords, I was in hopes that the N 0149 awl Learned Lord (Eldon) would have come down prepare{ with some legal arguments against thtise - brought for ward by the 2:1 oble Learned 'Lore on the Wool seek; and by 'The INToble end' Learned t orc l s opposite,. nstead of making person }I atta c k s upon myself an d my Hon. Friend in the other 110up e of Parliament, for bring ing forward this measure as he raid by surprise. My Lords, I think that the Noble and Learned Lord ought to have had the candour to have stated that as the UiniSeP of his Maje,ty we were bound net to mention it till it, and enable the Commissioners of Queen Anue's Bounty a particular moment. I must give a decided contradic- i. to grant the loan without. It would be found that the for tion to the charge of taking the country by surprise ; I znerActs were passed for the further enablingparochial clergy say there was no surprise.—( Loud cheers.)—The country to reside in their parisho, but h t believed that no one was informed in the most authentic manner that it could would say that the Archldshop o 1 Canterbury could be be, through the medium of the King's speech, of what considered as one of the parochial clergy. That fact was were the intentions of Government, and that now is more rendered by the Gilbert Act, a se t t trate Act of Parliament than two months since ; nay, more, those very peti- for this loan. tions presented by the Noble and Learned Lord, and Strangers were ordered to withdtaw, but Mr. Hustzt by other Noble Lords also—those very petitions, stated that he should be satisfied with rescinding his dissent amounting in number nearly to two thousand, afforded from the principle of the Bill and not press his amendment. the strongest proof that there was nothing like surprise in The Bill was then lead a third time and passed. the case.---(Loud cheers.)—My Lords, I rejoice that these A Messenger from the House of Lords brought up their petitions were presented, for when the Government was Lordships' assent to several pi ivate Bills. charged with attempting to establish Popery and arbitrary I Sir It. INGLIS presented a petition from a deanery in power, I consider that these petitions afford the strongest the diocese of Chester against the Catholics. Sir M. S STEWART presented a petition from a silk-throwster, ot; we.believe, Glasgow, relative to the duties on thrown silk. Mr. LEYCESTER stated that it had been the opinion of several practical persona that a reduction of the duty on Thrown Silk would enable the manufacturers to compete with the foreign ones, and that this might he effected with out a great sacrifice of the revenue. Sir G. PHILLIPS doubted much whether such a pr,)- vision would have the effect anticipated. Mr. FERGUSSON said that this petition came from his country, but it was the most extraordinary one which had ever come from any country, as the petitioners prayed that the same duties should be imposed ou thrown silk as was imposed on grain,—a more monstrous and ridiculous proposition had never come before the House, and he considered that it was a hoax on the House ,as the petition stated that the duty on corn was sometimes as high as 240 per cent. Mr. BRIGHT differed with the views of the Hon. Member who spoke last. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN believed that the discus• sion of this question would have been more properly de ferred till Mondq, when it would come regularly before the House. Mr. V. FITZGERALD must defer giving any explana tion of the intentions of Government on this question, but he wished it to be understood that it was front no indifference on the part of the Government to the distresses of those unfortunate persons.__( Hear, hear ) After a few words from Mr. FYLER, Mr. BA alis.c, and Mr. HUME, the petition was ordered to be printed. Mr. W. .HORTON presented a petition from the Paisley Emancipation Society, in favour of emancipation. Mr. KENNEDY postponed his motion on the Scotch Law of Entail, till the Ist of May. Mr. FAZAKErILEY presented a petition from the city of Lincoln, for the repeal of the Assessed Taxes. Colonel SIBTHORPE presented a petition from the Non• Commissioned Officers of the Cavan Militia, praying that their situation may be considered. Mr. MONCK presented a petition from the undersigned inhabitants of the city of Dublin relative to the oaths im posed on Jews. BOROUGH OF EAST RETFORD Mr. LAMB presented a petition from the bailiff and freemen of East Retford, in the county of Nottingham, complaining that the borough was without representatives at a period when it was particularly desirable that every place returning Members should have a voice in the House. This was the third session during which the writ had been suspended, and the matter seemed still to sleep. In regard to the borough of Penryn, it had been stated by the highest legal authority in the other House, that unless corruption could be proved against the largest portion of the borough, disfranchisement eouhl not take place. Now, although all kinds of evidence had been raked together, they had failed to establish the fact of the cot , ruption of a majority of the electors of East lhtlord. As to the Penryn Bill, nothing had been seen or known of it by this House except from the item in the civil contingen cies, whence it appeared that a sum of 6,994/ had been incurred for expences on its account. No reason could be assigned why a writ should not issue. It was essential to the borough that it should have a representative in this House to advocate their cause. In the case of Giampound, the two Members sat in the House during the whole in quiry ; and during the present Parliament, in the case of Penryn, the members efficiently advocated thei nterests of that borough. He did not doubt the power of the House to suspend the writ, but he wished to know the reason of its being delayed. The only reason he could ssien was the conveniency of the Members of this and the other House, in order that they might not be called upon to sit a few days longer at the period of inquiry. If the House should feel disposed to support him, he should lie desirous of moving that the writ be issued forthwith. lie did not think it was consonant with the spirit of the Constitution, the justice of that House, or the rights of the patties, if the writ was not issued. Mr. H. GURNEY was glad to hear of this petition. The Hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Calvert) had ground ed his motion, with regard to this borough, on the case of Shoreham ; but of all precedents Shoreham was the last to be followed. The course pursued with respect to East Retford had been severe. When a member had been drawn in to commit an act of bribery, he was incapacitated from sitting in that Parliament only ; but here were per sons who did only what they thought themselves entitled to do, and who were incapacitated from voting, not only for East Retford, but for all other places. He hoped the House would allow the Hon. Member to move for a writ for East Retford; and the probability was, it would never hear more of its corruption. After a few words from Sir C. BURRELL, the CHAN CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. SYKES, and Mr. Fa NE, the petition was read. Mr. TENNYSON thought it right that the House should be informed that the whole of the persons who had signed the petition, being 81 in number, with the excep tion of eight, had received the election money in 1818. As the discussion on the measure, of which he had given notice, would certainly take place on the sth of May, he hoped that the Hon. Member would withdraw his motion. After a few observations by Mr. Alderman WA ITHMAN and Mr. Luan,Ev, Mr. LAMB consented to withdraw his motion, and to give notice for its renewal after the holidays. —The peti tion was then ordered to be printed. SPANISH CLAIMS' BILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the order of the day for the second reading of this Bill. Mr. BENSON was glad that there at length existed a prospect Of these claims being satisfactorily adjusted. Mr. ROBINSON was afraid that the matter might be re-opened, as there was one class of claimants who might be dissatisfied if they did not receive from the Spaui•h Government the sums to which they were entitled. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no doubt that the arrangement proposed would be found satis factory to all parties. There was necessarily a reciprocity, and the claimants of each state would undoubtedly be paid by their own Government. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday next. The House then resolved itself into a CompliAtez on the Swan River Settlement Bill. Mr. FERGUSSON proposed au amendment to the effect that in this new Colony laws should be introduced re pugnant to the larva of England. Sir G. MURRAY observed, that in a new Colony it .ht be neeessr-- ntig _.;ary to give extraordinary powers to the executive; but it would be the desire of the GoVernment to afford to those who were sent over as settlers every pro tection which the Colonial regulations would admit of, Mr. HUME wished to know whether in South Wales the provisions of a Lill recently passed had been carried into effect relative to the council, and the establish ment of grand and petty juries. Sir G. MURRAY said, that it was the intention tck, establish a council, if persons of a proper class were funnel ; to go over to the colony. After a few words from Mr, WARRURTON, Mr. Felt , cussoN, Sir E. CAnneNoTox„ and Mr. H. Twist, the • , . latter of who opposed the amendment, Mr. HUME inquired whether the establishment of Trial by inry Was likely to l.;e effected in New South Wales ? Air• IL TWEi..iS replied that no progress had yet been mai,e, there had not been time. Mr. FE RG USSON at length withdrew his ame4dment. Several verbal amendments were m 4,„ The House , then r e su me d, t h e R eport was brc„tight up, and ordercd to be received on Monday .lest. The Report on the Naval. COMmissioners' Quoro'n Bill was brw,ht np and ordered to be received on Monday. ' 1 : 1 1e RePprt on the. Naval Officers' Widows' Pensiori Bill - was brought op, and the Bill - was ordered to 1),. read a third time oR Monday next, and be printed, Oi.t the Motion of Sir G. COCKBURN Ow Greenwich Hospital Bill was read a second and ordered to be tommitted on Tuesday. The Report of t t lla committee on the Newfoundland Fisheries Bill vziis brought up. Mr. RUBINSON feared that all further oppasitlon on his part would be unavailing, but he begged to inform the House that next Sessions he wnuld. move for a Parlia mentary inquiry. The Amendments were. agreed to, and tile Bill w 3 r' ordered to be read a third time on Monday next. On the motion of Lord G. SOMERSET, the Home re s lve l itself into a Committee on the Lunatic Regulation Bill. The House resumed, and the report was ordered to e received on Monday next. The second reading of the County Bridges' Bill was postponed till the Ist of May. The amendments in the Committee on the Game Bill were agreed to, and the Bill was ordered to be read a thit d time on Monday next. The regulation of seisins (Scotland) Bill was real a third time, awl passed. Sir 11. HARDINGE moved for the appointment of a Select Cnninittee to inquire into the state of the Militia. The CHANCELLOR of th e EXCHEQUER brought in a Bill to continue the eornpobiition for the Assessed Taxes, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday next. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at Nine o'clock. COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGES OF NEW SOUTH WALES, AND THE TWO CANADAS. There is an article in the Sydney Monitor rela- tive to the comparative advantages possessed by the Colony of New South Wales, and those of Upper and Lower Canada. The writer of the article in question is on the spot, and therefore may ho presumed to be well acquainted with the country of which he treats. NVith regard to the capa bilities of the soil, he holds the same opinion as Captain Tench, who went out with the first Governor, and who, after residing several years in the colony, returned home, embodied his opinions in an able book, and, amongst other things, stated that the land was far from being fertile, and would not produce crops without being sT c co o rm i l soetirajoeyt observations t si l ale y :rirksv m s,mi a to r iao l fd i t t e ' sh e d. But what makes against the opinions of Captain Tench and the Editor of the e Monitor, is the amazing great progress which the i e o n f l a a t t i t i :e: e r t , h i c e t o r a u p s r i s c e e d a i l:s e f , y l a j v e o fe r u e:e n l ; leeiistatelCsl.7b, set ting forth that New South Wales is every respect to be preferred to Canada. In an answer to this the Monitor, amongst other things, observes that " Patriotism is a good thing ; but he who loves it better than truth is an immoral man. A writer's immorality, in the instance of over-rating thiS Co lony, not only violates that great fundamental prin ciple, but its effects are cruel on the entrapped adven turer, who, relying on the accuracy of the writer, exiles himself from his country and his fi lends, to be disappointed—perhaps ruined. The winter in Ca nada is, in our opinion, no objection to that Colony, providing the land be so fertile as that food and rai ment can be raised there in six months, abundantly sufficient for the whole twelve. For persons who are healthy in a frosty climate, the leisure and good cheer of a Canadian winter must be pleasant, seeing that the sky there is ever clear. What kind of em ployment is more healthy and delig►htful in England than skaiting or shooting on a frosty day ? What more delightful than the fire-side of night ? Bat let us make a comparison between Canada and New South Wales. In no part of the world can the scenery be more insipid and monotonous than i❑ New South Wales. Cross the mountains, and you have then seen all that can be considered out of the common way. In Canada travellers luxuriate in their de scriptions of the landscape, which in summer no thing can surpass for richness or Ip.lauty."l'he trees of this Colony are certainly the most unsightly in the whole world. We never saw a patch of good sylva❑ scenery, save one or two spots in Argyle of a few hundred acres each. " The whole country on this side the mountains contains scarcely a mile of really beautiful forest. But in Canada those fine trees, the elm, the maple, the hickory, and the beech, stretch forth their um brageous arms, and delight both man and beast; the first through their beauty, the latter by their shade, being for most part of gigantic growth.' As to the water, in lieu of the dull, still chains of pond, with only two kinds of fish in them, which, with great scarcity, diversify the pine bearers' of this Colony, in Canada streams are so numerous as to impede travelling.'. As to the soil, 'throughout the whole of Lower Canada, wheat yields luxu riant crops,' and requires no manure for many years. Except small portions of land on the haul; of the Hawkesburyohe Hunter and the Nepean, Prospect-hill, a few whinstone hills, and a few strips of meadow in Airds, in Argyle, and at Bathurst, this country is productive only of a thin, spate grass, growing in tufts. Between the strips of meadow south and west, districts of seven or fourteen miles of barren crab, fit for neither man nor beast, intervene. " In short, when a population of 60,01.10 souls are obliged to collect their meat, their wool, their butter, their bacon, and their cheese, from a surface 300 miles square (as big us all England), the thing speaks for itself. And it only astonishes us how our Government can publiSh the coun try as a high-favoured colony,' and." that our Journalists can assist in propagating the de lusion, considering these circumstances. Even Algoa Bay, notoriously poc ; r, and settled only a few years, supplies this colony, at this time, with a deal of butter and cheese, for which we give the importers from the Cape IBd. a pound, and it is retailing in Sydney at 25.! Bread butter and bacon and beer will ever huvp to be. 11W:e or less. 'Vine im ported into New South Wales, we may be able to make, bur ale and port er never ; nor yet spirits, except, from sugar—save that, in plentiful maize P','4lsons, maize may perhaps be used up ; but the uncertainty of our corn harvests will al wtys make sugar the favourite article with our distillers. " This is not a country which can bear taxation. Of this his Majesty's Ministers may be assured. If it were not for the large expenditure of the Commis sariat here, the taxation of the colony would lay .the people all in jail ; but as the expenditure of the Com missariat exceeds the amount of our taxes, we stag ger under the latter tolerably well. Canada is re gular in her seasons. Here the seasons are the must uncertain in the world. Nothing can equal their unsteadiness. Even in our rainy sex enn i a l, t h e ra i ns are as uncertain as possible; and, in our droughty sexennial, the droughts are also irregular as to'the time of the year they may be expected to pine):, most. Our oldest cultivators are most at a lb ss t „ know how to regulate their farming opesations. - It is all chance-work with them. Therefore, we say again, New South \Vales can never be an agricultural country, even though her good soils were trebled. In wet seasons the abundant harveSt would do the farmers no good, on account e 4 the ruinous cheap ness-of-their products; and in thoughts good land is of no avail. New South Wales, then, being a very poor country, in . itself, it follows that, if ever it be come a greater country, it must be so by its situation, not lay its soil and climate. Its situation as a lishing station may possibly make it a thriving kingdom till, by native emigration, and the occupation of our children's children of longitudes and latit-udes be yond the reach of our present uncertain clitr.ate, the poverty inflicted by ouN. periodical thour obviated and e d ge d o ff b y the itr,',"orta6ti.jo'ttis onfiayhulbde produce—th;t is, of pork, brePA and huxtery, By trenchpg, droughts may . ue partially defeated." The. Accounts frow, New South Wales are by no means favourabk. j n consequence i the h '.'red de tb, bushels i v so : s ea t - ins , of the f a il ure o f wheat and other necessaries h a d ad tt- enormous price. Six thousand four bu of imported wheat had sold at 20s. a bushel, and flour was at 50s. the 1001bs. It is said that the thieves who broke into the Australian Bank effected their purpose " by working through a wall nine-feet . thick, having_ got to it under a drain." The small-pox, which was brought to Sydney 14y the Bussorah Merchant, had been making gre t ravages, particularly among the blacks. The hoop, lug cough had also been prevalent. Flour at Hobart Town was from 12s. to 14s. a bushel. The agricultural prospects had greatly im proved, but sheep and cattle were very low, the for mer have been sold at 3s. a-head, and the latter at 30s. Prices, were, however, improving. The whale fishery had been very successful. Bet weer) 700 and 800 tuns of oil will be exported, the entire capture of colonists. HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(LAST NIGHT.) On the Order of the Day for reading the Archbishop of Canterbury's Estate Improvement Bill, Mr. HUME observed, that this would be a misappli cation of Queen Anne's bounty, which was only in tended for clergymen with poor livings, and not for the advantage of the incumbents of rich livings, such as the Archbishop of Canterbury. The money from that bounty, for the purpose of enabling poor clergymen to repair glebe houses, was always repaid by an annual deduction from their income of 25 per cent., which would repay the sum in twenty years. He contended that such should be the provision of this Bill. He therefore moved, as an amend- I ment, that the words twenty-five years should be instead of forty years, for the repayment of the money. • Mr. DENISON contended that the loan of that sum was necessary, as the Archbishop, of Canterbury had two houses to keep up, one iii town, and the other at Adding ton, as in' such 'case he would be at au enormous expense. • 'Mr. MAI3E111.1( supported the Bill, Air. W, I [MINTY considered this a l3ill for absolving the representatives of the late Archbishop of Canterbury from their legal liabilities. It was necessary, by the 17th Geo. 111., that the incumbent borrowing should contv, bute a year's income to the repairs; wherca; the present claimant was only p rove d to h ave 4 propriated 3,V544. Mr. TENNYSON - 1 e that 'the executors had I ell.lec paid to his knowledge 6,9964 towards' the repairs. W A , stead, cf this loan! being injurious,'it vot4(l 14 ' beneficial fO the [nods of Queen nuke's 1.30, unT Commis. "41 9,b414 more interest t tau by any other ' 111 i 7:1 1 7 He thought It also a great proof of the liberality o f the present Archbishop of Canterbury, who had shov..7c, his willingne ss t o l ay out more than he was cal!,elou to do in order to support the dignity of the Sir F. FIIEMANTL stated, that it was objected to this Bill that an Net of Parliament for this grant was tin_ neeestAry, us there were other Acts which would apply to