The Sun. — London, England, 1829-05-22 00:00:00

tone, but in modern times the course was com pletely altered; for it was well known that the So licitors of the different Boards employed by Govern ment did the whole of the business which used to be done by the proper officers of the Court. All those officers now did was, merely to record the proceedings, though they were paid the same fees as when the burden of the business lay upon their hands. The Common Law Commissioners, in their report, had recommended that the Court of Exche- Laer should be altered into a Court of Common w and of Revenue. He meant not to touch that part of the proceeding. He begged, however, that kioble Lords would not infer from that, that it was not the intention of Government to interfere with it, for he coull inform the House that for several years past the Lords of the Treasury had directed their attention to that part of the establishment of the Exchequer. It had appeared to their Lordships to be cumbrous and unnecessary, and various Ants of Parliament and reports had been drawn up by the Law Officers of the Crown, upon the principle that the whole of this department should be remodelled. Their Lordships might form some ade quate notion of the absolute and urgent necessity of remodelling this department, when he laid before them one strong and remarkable fact. He alluded to one of the highest officers of the revenue depart ment of the Exchequer, who for very many years had never been within the precincts of the Court, or had seen any thing of its business. He had, in fact, for many years resided upon his property in the East Riding of Yorkshire, and had received five thousand a year ; whilst all the duties, such as they were, were performed by his deputy, who did not receive more than five or six hundred a year. Lord ELDON—Name, name him. Whom do you mean 'the LORD CHANCELLOR—IIIs name was but I have no occasion to mention his name ---it is well known to all of you.—(Laughter.) His Lordship continued—There was another point of the business of the Court, to which he would now call the attention of the House : he alluded to the Ex thequer informations respecting publications. These, he must state, were in every respect strictly Equity proceedings. When he had had the honour of fin ing the office of Attorney-General, he had had ample opportunities of knowing the extent and number of these proceedings, and of becoming acquainted with them in all their progress and relations. Now he could say that there were not two of these cases filed in a year. He could assert that the claims of this class involved no point of equity of any conse quence whatever. He should say that the Chief Baron, with the assistance of the Judge under the Lord Chancellor, might decide all the causes of this description, without, as he could conceive, any difficulty or inconvenience. He did not think that it could be necessary for him to go into any fur ther details upon any part of the subject at the present moment. His proposition was simply the appointment of an additional Judge to the Court of Chancery. - If in the result it should turn out that this additional Judge should have time to do any other business in the Chancery Court, he could only say that he might then be made available for the purposes of carrying into effect the recommend ations of the Common Law Commissioners, if Par liament should think proper to adopt them. His Bill was now before their Lordships, and he had, he believed, distinctly explained his object as well as his motives of proceeding. He could only re peat his trust, that the House would feel most sensibly the enormity of the existing evil, and how necessary it was to provide a suitable remedy with as little delay as possible. Many who heard him contemplated these evils only through' the medium of report, but they were more deeply impressed upon the minds of those who practised in the Chancery Court. There the. present system was seen in its effects upon the ruin of families, and the misery .of individuals. The conflict of the passions, and the exhanStron of funds, were not only sources of • present misery; but' they entailed poverty and. wretchedneis not only upon individuals, but whole classes of individuals.—(Hear.) —He hoped the House would be - satisfied, now that he had, in the performance of his duty, pointed out to them the circumstance, nature, and character, of the existing evil, and the Legislative measure necessary to relieve it he trusted the House would supply. Lord ELDON explained— His Lordship denied the conversation relative to the assent of the Master of the Rolls to the present Bill, in the parts relating to this Court. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the Master of the Rolls had declared he had no objec tion to sit in the morning. He had objected to hear pleas, motions, and demurrers ; but the Bill had been so framed as to obviate that objection, and ne had made no complaint that it was not satisfac torily obviated. Cord HOLLAND said that Lis Noble and Learned Friend (if he would permit him to call him so)" on the Woolsack, would, he hoped, excuse him for - having postponed stating his objections to the II to: so lste a period of its progress through the House. He felt it his duty, however, to the public to state what his objections to the Bill were, for he had considerable doubts of the propriety of the mea sure. His Noble and Learned Friend on the Wool sack had said that the Bill was a very simple Bill, and this was his (Lord Holland's) objection to it.— It was a Bill to create a new office and a new juris diction. What he complained of Isas, that the House was called upon to do what might he neces sary to do eventually and upon the whole, but which, until the whole subject was embraced, was per se malum. He would not withhold his assent to a grant of ten, or even twenty thousand a year to ally officer, if he thought by voting that money, he should really do any thing to expedite - the adminis tration of justice. God forbid he should have any such feeling. But taking the Bid as a simple propo sition, it reminded him of what had been said by Sir Edward Coke, " There were two great evils, of airy pretences and of mischievous consequence— the cresting of a new office, and the creating of a new operation." These two things the House was called upon to do. He did not object to a new Court, or a new Judge, for he was inclined to sus pect that both would be found necessary; but he objected to the appointment of either as a preliminary measure. Let the House have the whole case and the whole remedy before it, ere it acceded to such a proposition. He felt very grateful to the Noble and Learned Lord for his speech. What he com plained of was this, that the Noble and Learned Lard having in that speech sketched the out line of the various measures which it was his intention to propose, had subsequently brought forward only one part, and that not the most estimable part, of those measures. The Noble and Learned Lord—and the hour (it was nearly seven o'clock), perhaps, suggested to him (Lord Holland) the illustration—having sub mitted to the House, and to the public, a bill of fare, containing the names of a number of excellent, and delicate, and palatable dishes, instead of pur suing the usual custom on such occasions of laying the dishes upon the table, laid only the reckoning. —(A laugh.)—lt was rather too much thus to call upon them to pay for the feast, before they had en joyed it. He did not oppose the principle 'of the Bill : but still he was very desirous to know' by what other measures it was to be followed. The course of proceeding adopted by the NOble and Learned. Lord would admit of what might, however, be considered as too ludicrous an illustration. It was well known that mans of the cockneys and Gilpins of the pre sent day, owing to the great improvemept that had taken place in the diffusion of knowledge, were in duced to take their wives •and families to see some thing of the Continent, instead of being- satisfied with their former trips to Brighton 'or Margate. When John Bull, who had been accustomed only to a chaise and pair, prepared to set off with his ecitinpanions and luggage from the first post town in France, he was akreeabiy surprised to find that the pole was taken out of the chaise, and a shaft sub stituted; and that there were to be three horses abreast. " , This will be fine driving," quoth John. n.. o.ttla_ however. he speedily be. came disatisfied. He saw in the centre one power ful animal, able, like the present Master of the Rolls, to draw the whole equipage himself; but then he saw at the sides of this noble creature two miserable nags, from whom he could expect no as sistance.—(A laugh.)—The harness also appeared so bad, and the traces so loose, that it was evident the progress of the vehicle must be slow. John complained to the Postmaster of the hardship, and received an explanation in a jargon which he did not very %yell understand, but from which he was able to gather that the Postmaster laid great stress on the efficacy of a fourth horse. To John's great dis may, hove er, this fourth horse was never attached to the carriage; and he found that he had to pay for that the benefit of which he had never received. Such was exactly the simple remedy of the Noble and Learned Lord. Their Lordships were called upon to take it alone; and to trust that the other andmore desirable measures would make their appearance by and-by. It was, however, AO new measure. It had been tried before. It was simply another Vice- Chancellor's Bill. At the time when the Vice- Chancellor's Bill was before their Lordships, he (Lord Holland) had opposed it on grounds, some of which on consideration he gave up, but others of which still appeared to him to be just and right. The Noble and Learned Lord, probably in the warmth of ar;uenent, alluded the ether day to the objections to that Bill which fifteen years ago had been urged in the other House by Sir John Leach. He was sorry the Noble and Learned Lord had done so ; because he had not added, as he should have done, what followed. He had not added that Lord Castlereagh, in ans wer to the recommendation of Sir John Leach to compel the Master of the Rolls to sit in the mornings as well as in the evenings, had said that Sir William Grant, the then Master of the Rolls, had been consulted on the subject, but that he was averse to comply; so that there was an end to the matter, as it would be improper and un constitutional to interfere with a patent office against the will of the existing proprietor, and most cruel and unjust to do so with reference to so eminent a Judge, and from whom the public had experienced such valuable services as Sir William Grant. In the propriety of this observation the House, and he believed Sir John Leach, acquiesced ; and that was a circumstance which the Noble and Learned Lord ought to have mentioned. The Bill now in pro gress created a new Court and a new Judge. He was not prepared to say that they might not be ne cessary, and desirable, in conjunction with the other measures which the Noble and Learned Lord had it in contemplation to introduce. But he was not prepared to agree in the first in stance to the creation of a new Court and a stew Judge, until he should have a clear understand ing of the measures by which that proposition was to be followed. As to the clauses of the Bill, some of the objections which had been entertained ' towards them had been removed, but others remain ed. When the Bill was first introduced he felt an objection to the clauses which went to impose on the Master of the Rolls a jurisdiction which he had never vet had. He thought those clauses cruel and unjust to the individual who at present held that high situation, and probably fraught with incon venience to the suitors of the Court. With regard to the subject of the motions, pleas, and demurrers, he begged to say one word. He believed that the Master of the Rolls did not take cognizance of tno tione, pleas, and demurrers belonging to the Cow t of Chancery. There was no law by which the Lord Chancellor was empowered to send such mo tions, pleas, and demurrers to any other Court. But when the Vice-Chancellor's Bill was under conside ration, it was so framed as to enable the Vice-Chan cellor, whenever the Lord Chancellor might think proper, to hear and determine, and to give orders respecting motions, pleas, and demurrers from the Court of Chancery. It was thought that this regu lation would operate as a great relief to the Court of Chancery. Those motions, pleas, and demurrers were, accordingly ; sent to the Vice-Chancellor's Court during the ten years that his excellent friend Sir John Leach was at the head of it ; and during that time he (Lord Holland) believed that there were never two in arrear. Now to say that when that eminent person, after working so industriously for such a length of time to keep down the arrears of his Court, was raised to the higher and more honourable station of the Master of the Rolls, bec - ause during the two years that he had left the Vice-Chancellor's Court the arrears had accumulated, the burden was to be sent to follow him into the Rolls Court, had appeared to him to be a piece of injustice, cruelty, and hardship, which it was difficult to characterise in terms of sufficient reprobation. From what had fallen from the Noble and Learned Lord, however, he was happy to find that he was in error on this subject; an error arising, no doubt, from his own inadvertence. He was very happy to be corrected. Still, however, the certainty which the suitors of the Rolls Court _at present enjoyed, would be lost by the clauses of the present Bill; an arrangement to which he must object, until it was proved that the number of motions, pleas, and demurrers sent by the Court of Chancery to the Vice• Chancellor's Court, was too large for that Court to deal with.— On that narrow ground, therefore, he was still dis satisfied with the clauses of the Bill. He would move as amendment, that the Bill be read a third time on that day fortnight. Lord REDESDALE earnestly wished that the Noble and Learned Lord would withdraw the Bill, for it was one which required much greater consideration on the part of their Lordships, as well as on that of the Noble and Learned Lord. It required much previous communica tion with the Barons of the Exchequer, and with the other officers of that Court; a com munication which, he believed, bad not hitherto been held. As to the appellate jurisdiction, when it was considered that the appeals from the Court of Exchequer lay only to that House, while the appeals from the new Judge would lie to the Lord Chancellor as well as to the House, it was evident that the proceeding was calculated to in crease the burden on the shoulders of the Lord Chancellor. What necessity could there be for the passing of the Bill in the present Session ? It was only a part of a general measure, the remainder of which could not be considered until next Session. He repeated, therefore, his hope that the Noble and Learned Lord would withdraw the Bill. He (Lord Redesdale) might, without vanity, be supposed to know something more about equity business than the Noble and Learned Lord, having breathed the air of a Court of Chancery for nearly three-score years. Lord TENTERDEN had no objection to the principle of the Bill, or to the creation of a new Judge. The immense increase of legal business, con sequent on a similar increase in the business of the country, rendered such a measure advisable. But he strongly deprecated any reduction of the equitable jurisdiction of the Court of Exchequer--a jurisdic tion which, in his opinion, ought rather to be strengthened and augmented. The Amendment was then negatived without a division, and the Bill ►vas read a third time and passed. - The Marquis of LONDONDERRY presented a petition from certain coal agents, praying that the London Bridge Bill might not pass into a law. Adjourned at Half-past Eight o'clock. HOUSE OF COADIONS.-(LAST NIGHT.) Mr. HOBHOUSE moved the third reading of the St. James's Vestry Bill. Mr. PONSONBY moved as an amendment, that the Bill be read a third time that day three months. Sir S. MORLAND seconded the amendment. Mr. S. DENISON expressed his surprise that such an amendment should have been proposed, as the amendment on that clause was lost in the Com mittee by 14. to 1, and the Hon. Member for Mid dlesex was the only Member who supported it. Mr. ESTCOURT supported the amendment. Sir ROBERT WILSON said, that it had been advised that certain rropositions should be made, in order to procure an amicable 'arrangement, but the '14,13ir )uld not listen to it. No :1 of th+ ill wo) blame could be thrown on the Committee, who acted unanimously, and were strangers to party feeling. It had been admitted a malversation of the parish money had taken place, and he thought that under such circumstances the House would net allow 1100 pe titioners to remain under the government against which tbey , had petitioned. Mr. HOBHOUSE said that it was somewhat hard that at the eleventh hour the Bill should be met by an objection, which, if made at all, should have been brought forward at an earlier and a fairer stage of the proceeding. The House would observe that the conduct throughout of the opposing party had not been characterised by fairness. Who were the Members who had spoken first to-night ? Why, both those Hon. Members were themselves mem bers of the Select Vestry of St. James's.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—Ho did not mean to say that those Honourable Gentlemen would do any thing wrong. He would answer for the conduct of the Honourable Member, and there were plenty to be answerable for that of the Hon. Baronet, but he did think that every person belonging to any body must have a feeling in preference of that body. He could not think that - the fact of the names of those respectable gentlemen being on the Select Vestry, afforded a guarantee for the good management of the parish, and the expenditure of 63,0001. or the 32 vestrymen, there were several who had never once been present at the auditing the accounts. Earl Spencer had been a vestryman ten years without ever having been present, and he could mention many more names who had acted in the same way. He considered then that the House would not intercept the Bill at this late stage, when it bad passed through the Committee by a majority of 14 to 1, and that one, a select vestryman, and he might sty ,An interested party. Sir E. KNATCHBULL supported the amend ment. Mr. BYNG said, that it had been proposed, that nearly 100 of the dons of the parish were to have been elected, but the Bill underwent so great an alteration in Committee, that the. number of vestry men were 45. One-third of which were to have gone out every year. lie would have been very well contented to have gone on as he had done for the last thirty years, but he found that it was not agree able to the parishioners, and he wished to cont►nue on the same principles as he had done.—(Here the cries of " Question' became so loud, that strangers were ordered to withdraw. The result of the divison was— For the Bill .. Against it Majority . _ . _ Mr. SLANEY presented a petition from Hert law, in the county of Durham, praying the House would pass a law to regulate the collection of poor rates. ouponel EAST RETFORD. Mr. H. PANE postponed his motion for the Speaker to issue a writ for the election of a Mem ber for the borough of East Retford until Monday. Mr. HUME moved for various returns connected with the Ecclesiastical Courts. MR. O'CONNELL. At twenty minutes past Five, the order of the House was called on, that the Speaker do issue his warrant fur a New WTrit for the County of Clare. SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Sir, it Will be in the recollection of the House, that upon a former occasion, when this matter was under its con sideration, some Member to whosejudgment great de ference was due, said it would be better to have a reference at once to the recent statute that has passed to disfranchise the forty-shilling freeholders. On that account, Sir, therefore, I shall withdraw the motion, for the purpose of adding that the writ issue with those additions which the recent Act proposes. The SPEAKER then put the question to the House, and Mr. SPRING RICE rose for the purpose of moving an amendment to the new proposition,' and to the motion before the House. I take the liberty, Sir, observed the Hon. Gent., very earnestly of intreating the indulgence of the House, to what I shall have to say upon the present question. For I do assure them that no individual, at any time, felt so deeply convinced of the necessity of craving its indulgence as I do. I wish, in the first place, to state that the motion I make is wholly unconnected with the individual whose name has been so often mentioned. It neither proceeds from his suggestion, nor from any communication direct or indirect on my part, or on the part of any individual with whom I am connected, and at the present moment I do not know what may be the feelings or the wishes of that individual. I need not therefore say it is uncon nected with any party feeling. I am ready to admit that I am making the motion in discharge of the duty I owe to the House. There is no individual more ready to express to the House the obligations I owe to the Government than 1 am ; it is therefore not out of hostility to them that I bring forward the motion, but it is with reference to the tranquillity of Ireland, and the Act lately pass ed. I trust that when Honourable Members come to consider the case, they will find, that though they were in a majority on a late occasion that Mr. O'Connell was not entitled to his seat, vet that they will be induced to say it is a state of the law that calls for a remedy. I should not have brought forward this motion at all Lad it not been for the motion of the Hon. Gentleman opposite. I wish to refer to circumstances which took place on the Catholic Relief Bill when in the Committee. Gentle men will recollect that in the Committee on that Bill, an Hon. Friend of mine, the Member for Dublin, was disposed to suggest to the House the propriety of amending that particular clause of the Bill which applies to Roman Catholics elected before the Act not having taken their seats, in fact, that part of the Act which applies specifically though not by name, to the case of Mr. O'Connell. On that occasion I stated to the House, as I was re quested to do by Mr. O'Connell, that he did not wish that any question personal to himself should be introduced on the passing of that Bill calculated to intercept the progress of the measure, from which he _expected benefit to his country. It will be recollected that I distinctly stated at the time, that in making that communication, I made it merely upon his part, and expressed no opinion of my own, direct or indirect, on it. As this point might be mistaken, I will not say, misrepresented, I took the liberty of referring, with regard to this very subject, to a Right Hon. Friend of mine, a member Of his Majesty's Government, who is not now pre- Sent, who spoke to me after I had made my com munication, and observed with what caution I had re served my own opinion. I admit if Mr. 0' Connell were now to be a petitioner at the bar, if he were now to seek that relief which I shall ask for him, the declaration he then made might be pleaded at the bar. But the present measure does not proceed from him, but from grounds of public policy, as material to the peace of Ireland. No act of Mr. O'Connell—no act of mine, if I had been inconsiderate enough to commit myself, ought to distract the House from this great question which is to convey to the country the greatest Quantum of relief. I come, Sir, in the first instance; to con sider the proposition of my Honourable Friend the Solicitor-General. It was on Tuesday last that after a very protracted debate, which had taken place on the Monday, an order was made for the attendance of Mr. O'Connell; Mr. O'Connell attended; you, Sir, communicated to him the reso lution of the House, and the order consequently made upon it. Mr. O'Connell, at the hour of four o'clock on that day was not in official possession of the decision of Parliament. Without notice the Solicitor-General moves that a new writ do issue for the election of a Member for Clare, or, in other words, he moves that Mr. O'Connell, who had been duly elected, should be driven to a new election. I cannot but complain o f the breathless haste with w hich the Solicitor-Ge neral proceeded. The House is here called on to act in its severest capacity. The proposition of the Solicitor-General was a proposition which, in point of fact, would have been imperative at the thne; the Learned GenL now finds him s elf compelled to withdraw his proposition, and submit a new one applicable to the state of the law as it now is ; but which is in itself equally objectionable. And now let us see what this proposition is. There are gentlemen who seem to consider that it is part of the law of the land, that upon a repre sentative refusing to take the oaths. the election is to be considered void, and that a new election must take place. Now, I apprehend the Learned Solici tor-General will not contend for that. I think he will admit that it is a very different case to one in which Mr. O'Connell might have sat and voted in this house, and then have refused to comply with the forms. This is an act, which if it be to be justified at all, must be justified by the will and pleasure of the House ; there is no law upon the point—it rests en tirely upon expediency, and that expediency is en tirely within the province of the House. The Hon. and Learned Gent. in moving this proposition did not state one single argument in recommendation. It stands now as given from the chair, simply upon re ference to the precedent then referred to of the case of Archdale. It is, no doubt, however, competent for the House to use its own discretion. The-case of Archdale is the only one that applies; the other cases mentioned come totally under a different principle. The individuals in the other cases were Members of Parliament who were called upon to take oaths; those oaths were of a different character, and the whole proceedings were totally inapplicable to the case now before the House. Mr. Arch dale had not taken his seat, he refused to be sworn, and Mr. O'Connell therefore comes within the principle that applies to his case.— I could have wished that the case had rested still upon the declaration of Mr. O'Connell refusing to take the oath, for then he would have exercised his discretion whether he would or would not have asked for the Chiltern Hundreds ; but by the step taken by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman no such opportunity has been afforded to him. At four o'clock in the afternoon he learns that the House has decided against him, and in five minutes afterwards the new writ is moved for.—(Hear.) It is said that the su , pension of the new writ might have been moved for, and that then it would have rested with the House to say, whether or not that sus• pension should be granted, regard being had to the ful ness of the House. Now, I confess, I can see no force in that argument, unless the electors of the county of Clare had applied to the House, and complained that they were unrepresented, and called on the House . to issue a new writ. The electors of the county of Clare have been unrepresented on a former occasion, so that if the doctrine of the fulness of the House renders it necessary that all counties should be represented, then that of Clare has a right to complain of the negligence of the House on a former occasion. Clare was represnted by a gen tleman holding the Colonial Office and discharging Colonial duties I believe; but if I be wrong in that, I know that it has been represented by an Hon. Friend of my own, who was at that very time discharging official duties at the Court of Stock holm. What I now complain of is the issuing the new writ without complaint, and without any argument in support of it having been addressed to the House. Such a step is bringing the House of Commons into the exercise of a prerogative which it has the right or has not the right to exercise in contact with a single individual ; by it, you are running the risk of making Mr. O'Connell a political martyr, and of raising afresh the disturb ances in Ireland, of which we have lately heard so much. I believe the whole of the community are ready to sympathise with Mr. O'Connell. If the exercise of the prerogative of the House against nn individual (I mean in the case of Wilkes), created agitation throughout the country, how much more is that agitation to be expected and felt in the case of Mr. O'Connell, and how much greater is the necessity of guarding against it ? He asked you in the address which he so powerfully made to the House, what you meant to do with him ? Did you mean to make him a political outlaw? I will not repeat what he stated, but I will contend, if there are any here who suppose this to be regarded as a transaction simply between the House and Mr. O'Connell, • such individuals are extremely ignorant of the state of Ireland. Mr. O'Connell, it is true, is the Parliamentary Representative of the county of Clare, but he is bound up with the sympa thies and feelings of the Catholic people of Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded. The House had heard much of the agitation that lately existed in Ireland, and they now had many proofs that that agitation had happily subsided. He would, there fore, call on the House to consider whether the step now about to be taken would not again raise that agitation. The House during the present Session passed three of the most important measures ever brought under its consideration, he meant the Catholic Relief Bill ; the Forty-shilling Freeholders' Disfranchisement Bill; and the Bill for the sup pression of the Catholic Association ; but if a new election were now to take place, the good effects of hese measures would be totally destroyed, it would raise newagitators that would disturb the country from one end to the other, for there was not a Catholic in Ireland but who would feel sensibly the wrongs in flicted on the man who had fought his battles, and without whose instrumentality he never would hare obtained his rights.—(Hear, hear.)—And where would be so good an opportunity for the Catholics to display their sympathy as on the hustings for the county of Clare, where they would feel the injury inflicted on one of their own body, as one inflicted on the whole community. After a few other obser vations, in w:.ich the Hon. Gentleman strongly stated his opinion of the injurious effects a new election would have in disturbing the tranquillity of Ireland, he concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend that part of the Act which related to this particular case, so as to enable the Hon. Member for Clare to take his seat without a new election. Lord MORPETH seconded the motion. The great object of this motion was to prevent Mr. O'Connell from being made an exception to their general rules. They bad an opportunity now of acting in the general spirit of the Relief Bill, if not to its letter, and therefore he willingly seconded the motion. The amendment and the original motion having been put from the Chair. General GASCOYNE trusted he and his Hon. Friend (Mr. S. Rice) would come to the same con _ _ elusion Of amending the Bill. The rights of Mr. O'Connell, be must say, were sacrificed to a com promise between the Gentlemen on the right and those on the left. He supported this individual, because he thought there never occurred in Parlia ment a case of so much hardship and injustice. It was said by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Secretary Peel) that when the Bill came into Committee, all the Acts proposed to be repealed would be men tioned in the margin ; but it now appeared that the Acts affecting Roman Catholics were not all re pealed. If the Member for Clare was to he ex cluded from his seat, they ought to consider whether he wea not liable to still further pains and penalties. Expediency was not to be put out of the question here. It was the great argument in support of the Relief Bill. They were told by his Hon. Friend (Mr. S. Rice) that if they determined to exclude Mr. O'Connell, agitation might again arise in Ire land.—(Hear, hear.) That was the observation of his Hon. Friend, and he was right to urge it in argument, for it was the principal ground on which the Relief Bill rested. If this measure should be agreed to, he would suggest one or two alterations, which, in his opinion, would improve other parts of the Bill, and give more satisfaction to the Catho lics. The lateness of the Session was no objection. The Bill might go through ail its stages in two or three weeks. There was a greater probability now of improving the 811, because all agitation upon the subject had in a great measure subsided. There was a clause which left it open to amendment or re peal if necessary—(A laugh.)—He had some doubt whether, after having refused to take the oath, the Hon. Member could again be elected. If that was the case, the punishment would be still mere severe. He could not consent to visit the !his of those who,petitaps, subverted the Constitu tion, on a man who only exerted himself to have restored to those of his own religion the privilges of which he considered them unjustly deprived. Mr. R. ('OLBORNE thought it would be ob jectionable to issue a new writ immediately. But the proposition of the Member for Limerick was still more objectionable. He proposed a Bill to re medy an inconvenience which they all distinctly saw before. His Hon. Friend came down with a pro position, while the Relief Bill was passing through the House, that the case of Mr. O'Connell should not for a moment interfere. He thought it then mag nanimous on the party of Mr. O'Connell; but it would now appear as if he was oily hanging back till the Bill passed. lie might be asked, whether he had any alternative to propose. It might be said, what difficulty is there in suspending the writ, and he confessed he saw no difficulty in such a step. They had an example in the case of East Retford, of a writ suspended for two or three years. Mr. O'Connell might, after a time, take that oath.— hear.) —lie did not like the manner of his refusal at the bar, but others had taken it as con scientious as Mr. O'Connell. Were there not other possible ways of getting rid of the difficulty ? Mr. • O'Connell might be raised in his profession, and he knew no way of producing a vacancy for Clare that would give more satisfaction. He did not approve either of the preposition of the Solicitor-General, or of that of his lion. Friend (Mr. S. Rice). Mr. HUSKISSON must oppose the proposition of the Hon. Member for Limerick. By the vote of the House it was irrevocably settled that the Mem ber for Clare must take the oath of supremacy. In the course of the discussion on the subject they were frequently reminded that they were acting in a judicial capacity. He listened with the greatest attention to the arguments of Mr. O'Connell, and of those Hon. Members whose legal habits and abi lities were most likely to enable him to come to a just and proper decision. lie considered himself to be acting upon that - occasion as a juryman, and if there was a doubt he thought he should give it in favour of Mr. O'Connell. At one time he cer tainly had some doubts, but he was much influenced by the argument of the Member for Peterborough (Sir J. Scarlett), which altered his opinion. lle certainly did think the Relief Bill would exclude Mr. O'Connell, but as there were doubts upon the subject, he thought it better to allow these doubts to remain than risk the success of the great measure. Now, however, that the House had come to a deci sion on the point, they had no course but to affirm that decision. They should have followed the pre cedent of 1801. Mr. Horne Tooke was then re turned to Parliament. The Member for Bucking ham made a motion for a new writ, on the ground that he was in Holy Orders. The Committee be fore which the question came produced a variety of legal authorities, from Lord Cake down to Mr. Justice Blackstone, for the purpose of proving that a person in holy orders could not sit and vote in that House. Lord Sidmouth then filled the chair. He said he had no doubt of his ineligibility, and that he was prepared to affirm the proposition of the Committee. Lord Ellenborough, Mr. Perceval, and Lord Stowell, were of the same opinion. Doubt was entertained by Lord Grey, Lord Erskine, and others. Lord Sidmouth, under all the circum stances, said the better way would be to allow Mr. Tooke to take his seat, arid that he should guard in future against a similar occurrence. Mr. Tooke sat the whole of that Parliament, and a more quiet or harmless Member certainly never sat in that !louse, whatever might have been his previous character. Had the House acted on the same principle in this case lie should have been glad of it. The House, however, having come to a decision, he thought they must affirm the decision. Mr. FERGUSSON thought the Member for Limerick had taken a most unfortunate course. If it produced agitation it would be attributable to the motion itself. But he saw no reason why it should produce agitation. If the Bill excluded Mr. O'Con nell, it originated in Mr. O'Connell himself, who was represented by his Hon. Friend as renouncing all personal considerations which might stand in the way of the measure. Ile was a friend to concilia tion, but if they now receded from the late Act the effect would be the very contrary, and be an en couragement to future agitation. He was equally adverse to the proposition of his Hon. Friend near him (Mr. R. Colborne), for if the writ was sus pended, it would only keep up the agitation, and give an opportunity to those who were inimical to the great measure, of frittering it away by amend ments. Mr. HusKlssoN explained. Mr. LITTLETON regretted that such a motion as this was submitted to the House. He admitted the services of Mr. O'Connell to his Catholic coun trymen, but he had no claim to have his individual case admitted into the Act of Relief. Lord NUGENT - could not vote for the proposi tion of his Hon. Fele:A (Mr. S. Rice.) He voted for the Catholic Relief Bill, though there were some provisions to which he felt objections, and among the rest that now under consideration ; but he should not think it right to turn round and say, that the Bill must be altered to meet the parti cular case in question. He was a party to no com promise of principle, but he felt himself called upon to make concessions for the purpose of securing a great public good. He saw nothing in the common law, in the statute law, or in the law of Parliament, which made it necessary to issue a new writ. The course he should adopt was, to vote against both propositions, that of the Solicitor-General, and of his Hon. Friend (Mr. S. Rice). Sir J. MACKINTOSH said if the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. S. Rice) should be pressed to a division he would support it. Certainly he did know that the Bill would exclude Mr. O'Connell ; and though be regretted it, he voted for the great measure, lest its success might be endangered by any minor consideration. He came to the House the other night, determined to avail himself of any doubts to vote for Mr. O'Connell's taking his seat, for he considered him the greatest benefactor to England and leeland.—(Hear.)—Seeing no reason to enter tain any such doubts, he declined to vote at all. As it was now determined by the House that he was excluded under the Bill, he had no objection to such an amendment of the measure as would admit him to take his seat. As to the pledge given to his con stituents by Mr. O'Connell, there was nothing in it inconsistent with the character of a lawyer, or a man of honour. He thought he might sit and vote under the law as it stood; and such being his opinion, he was perfectly justified in declaring it. The lan guage of Mr. O'Connell proved the purity of his in tentions towards his country.—(Hear, hear.)—cut after all he wished the present motion would not be pressed. Mr. W. lIORTON concurred in the wish ex pressed by his Hon. Friend who had just concluded. He never gave a vote with greater reluctance than that of the other night ; he wished Mr. O'Connell to be placed in that House ; but he nevertheless had a duty to discharge, and in discharging it he meant no personal hostility to Mr. O'Connell. The - Catholic Relief Act had reference only to persons elected after its passing, and without any regard whatsoever to the Hon. and Learned Member for Clare. In fact it was not specially directed against any individual. The qualifications to sit in that House were the oaths taken before the Relief Act, and the refusal to take theth of necessity induced the rejection of Mr. O'Connell. The House of Com ' mons deliberately decided the question, and he thought the motion of the Learned Solicitor-Gene ral should be carried. Mr. S. RICE said, as the question involved some feeling of honour and good faith, he would, with the consent of the House, now withdraw it. He wished to avoid discontent, and if he had erred he begged the pardon of the House. Mr. Secretary PEEL had no personal feeling upon the subject, and lie was only induced to say a word upon it in consequence of what had fallen from an Hon. and Learned Gentleman. The motion proposed was strictly according to precedent and ; analogy; and whether the Calte of Monson and Fanshawe were exactly analogous, all ho could gat was, that while they were not expelled, new write -: were issued, and such was the case with Mr. Amite dale. That of Mr. O'Connell's was similar to Mr. Archdale's, and they dealt with him in the 613. way. In a recent case, he meant that (if M r. • Southey, a new writ was issued upon his refusal td qualify ; that refusal, however, he admitted to lig on different grounds of disqualification. All the precedents adduced had been since the Revolution ; they had been followed up in the present case; the privileges of the House as well as its dignity required them to be so, and therefore Mr. O'Connell could not complain either of harshness or :severity. Ai r. O'Connell was elected before the conclusion of the , last Session of Parliament. He was in Londen . since his election. No motion was made on his be • half;until he himself had recently thought proper t press it on the House. The House hdd deeidedPi • • dicially, and by that decision the new Wilt fint 4 ° necessity be issued. It was said in certain qiiatteti cut of this House that inducements were held otif swell the majority against his admission; but to 0-; assertion he gave the most peremptory and decide' denial.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—lt was regarded ens tirely as a judicial question—( Hear, hear) —and in taking the course the House had pursued, th e ee slightest harshness or severity was not intended, , towards Mr. O'Connell. Mr. O'Connell should be considered as a mere individual Member of Partin' ment, and regardless of persons, this House he %rel. sure would fearlessly discharge its duty, He ha heard the speech of the Hon. Member (Mr. S. Ric e) with some regret. It was a bitter satire on the tentions of Government, which he (Mr. Pee,! ) thought was undeserved, and which perhaps te e lion. Member (Mr. S. Rice) had not himself in' tended. lie gave the Hon. Member credit for tot wishing to excite di,satisfaction, or retard the con' , ciliation, or under-rate the importance of the Cathel • lie Relief Bill; and he was satisfied that, without indulging in any prophetic expressions, that harmonl and good feeling not only would, but had already,: . most materially resulted from it. The Hon. Mct° ber (General Gascoyne) seemed to take a different view of the subject. That Hon. Member must haVe . greatly at heart the interest of the county of Lan; caster, and the wealth and property of the town 01. Liverpool; and as, in charity to the misguided pea' plc in a portion of Lancashire, the Government 1. were deermined put down all violence, he (M r s Peel) felt happy to say, that in answer to a letter written •by him to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland , the Noble Lord was pleased to say, that one re g l " ment of cavalry and two of infantry could be im me, diately placed at the disposal of his Majesty's vernment.—(Hear, hear.)—This was one proofs e" least, that a better feeling prevailed in Ireland, sg the effect of the Catholic Relief Bill ; he could 1 10 " hesitatingly state, that the better orders were ma r : closely approximated, and he sincerely hoped th e ; -• their example would soon have a beneficial Ow' upon those who were considered their inferil With respect to the question immediately before , g ,,,, House, he considered not the result of a new elite' tion for . Clare, particularly if that were to be CO pared with the due assertion and maintenance of the privileges of that House.—(Hear, Og g/ that the Disfranchisement Bill was agreed to quie tl P Past animosities were already in a great degree fea ; gotter. He rejoiced that his Hoe. Friend (MP' d Rice) had' withdrawn hie motion; and he h o p ed that rio discussion on the Relief Bill would be r e :. opened, almost within a mouth of the period g' which it was carried.—(Question, question.) t The motion that Mr. Speaker do issue his "IL for a new election for the county of Clare, le room of Daniel O'Connell, Esq. who had refused t.° take the oaths necessary to sit and vote in House was put to the vote, when Mr. BROUGHAM said, that if Mr. O'Conn ell had taken his seat before the issuing of the n ew writ' • no penal clauses could have attached to him his refusal to take the oaths ax• now existingdi And justify the issue of a new writ. The precedent an the common law did not touch the case of the Hod' Member foe Clare, although he-admitted that acting-. upon their privileges, the House could act as th e y had done. In the case of -Mr. Archdale he refuse'+': to take the oaths. Mr. O'Cormell did not refu ge to take the new oaths—Mr. O'Connell, though rel fusing to take the old oaths, could still exerciee • • the privileges du Member except sitting and voting ; and looking at the case of Sir Joseph Jekyll, 91 1715, it was admitted, that though he was not sworn, he was declared eligible to sit in a s ecret committee. It was a matter of mere discretion for the House to issue a new writ, and if i t. were to e issued, the sooner the better, because he had no• • • doubt it would restore Mr. O'Connell to his seat in this House.—(Hear, hear.) Rig C h o t lo i n i t o .l n. S S lß ec T re H ta O ry ll o r stabteegigioetdtotointcluatlgiteioinn !Ebb; repose which he had anticipated as to the quiet Ireland. He thought that some little further tinte should be taken, before the state of Ireland could be considered quite delightful. Mr. Secretary PEEL said he never indulgeg any prophecies as to the quiet of Ireland; ; said was, that such was the improved s tate 0 Rita' • land, that three regiments could be with safety drawn. Mr. S. RICE explained. Mr. C. W. WN IN said it appeared doubtful t: him if the better course would not have been toll° first discharged Mr. O'Connell from his a ttentbol ci3 in that House, than to shape it in its present forill"° (Question, question.) Mr. B. CLARKE said he had not the slighte, gt doubt but that the Catholic Relief Bill would collier. the most esset,tial advantages on Ireland. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL should tl4 have thought it necessary to have said any thil more upon this subject except to disclaim that will° he hoped was unnecessary, viz. that no feeling °. personal hostility, nor any feeling in the rem ote" degree allied to harshness personally to Mr. O'Con; nell, had influenced him in submitting the preeeP motion to the House. Mr. BROUGHAM made an observation aer°, the table to which the Solicitor-General return ed answer; but the low tone of voice in which bet the Honourable Members spoke rendered them audible in the gallery. The question that a new writ be issued fo r O f election of a knight of the shire for the countC, Clare, in the room of Daniel O'Connell, Esq., ": g being returned from that county before the Pass,";;; of an Act for the relief of his Majesty's 1 3 1" - , t o Catholic subjects, had refused to qualify himse",ho sit and vote in that House by not taking the ci ti e j pr e scribed by the House," was then put, and 01 without a division. PRESENTATION OF PETITIONS. Colonel DAVIES, after observing that it has expedient a limited time should be assigned f or 11 g presentation of petitions to that House, and he Y,lOl alluded to the great increase of business which 910 of late years devolved upon Parliament, moved °le n° motion, upon presenting a petition, should be e o f tertained after five o'clock p.m., until the order ° • the day should be disposed of. Mr. E. DAVENPORT supported the motion his Hon. Friend. t his Mr. LITTLETON felt it his duty to leave question in the breast of the Chairman of the 0°1 ;0 convinced as he was that the present system ( 1 • most conducive to the interests of the public' :fp that it ought to be left to the chair itself, as II t he cretional point, when it was expedient to wave es standing orders of the House under circumatelits, of emergency which ought to controul the e i blished rder of proceedings. Colon o el DAVIES, in reply, stated his det er°ll' nation to press te question to a division. OOP The galley was cleared by order of the SP EA- o f but it appears no division took place: an d on e return we found that the motion had been lost. BUILDING ACT. Mr. PALLMER said, that for morithan five eel past the Magistracy of Surrey had felt it nee d to direct its attention to - the immense indea°Bot buildings which had taken place in the co unt'', gl i o : to the manner in which they were constructed W