The Sun. — London, England, 1858-06-05 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. \ - HOUSE OF LORDS.—(YESTERDAY.) The LOUD Calamtox took. his seat on the woolsack at 5 o'clock. RIOTS IN BELFAST. Viscount DU/sTGANNON gave notice that, on Mon day next, he should ask whether her Majesty's Govern ment had received any information relative to the cir cumstances that caused the riots in Belfast. THIRD READINGS. On the motion of Lord REDESDALE the Trent Navigation bill, and the London Dock Company bill were read a third time and passed. - CELTANCERY AMENDMENT BILL. The LORD CHANCELLOR brought up the report of the comroi . ttee on the Chancery Amendment Bill. The report was received. , SAL E OF POISONS BILL. The Earl of D,NRBY moved the second reading of this bill, which was noinly founded on the recommen dkitione of a committee which sat last year on the sub ject. It was sought by the present bill to increase the dif ficulty of persons obtaining poisons for criminal purposes, :and to prevent the accidents that frequently arose, partly from accident, ignorance, or carelessness. The bill con tained stringent dauses with respect to the sale of poisons. After the passing of the act no poisons were to be sold to un;rnown persons unless in the presence of a witnees. A party wishing to purchase poison would have to do so in the presence of a witness, and both would then have to enter their names and addresses and the quantity bought in a book kept for th at purpose. Another enactment The poisons and chloroform laudanum, opium , tartar emetic, were not to be dealt in so stringent a manner ld as oth EOMe() r known poisonous substances, because it wou in degree interfere with trade and manufacture. Another clause enacted th at no person should s el l poison except he had received a licence to do so by a properly organised body. The board of examiners it was proposed sheuld con sist of three persous,a member of the Pharmaceutical So ciety, a member of the College of Physicians, and a member of the College of Surgeons, who would have power,after the person applying fur permission to sell had undergone aetrict examination, to grant a license to do so. With respect to those persons now selling poisons, the bill laid down that persons who had been in prac tice one year prior to its passing should be allowed to do so for five years', after which time they were required to undergo an examination, then to re ceive the licence in the manner laid down in the bill. There was also a power given in the act to certain properly appointed • persons to enter the place, in order to ascertain whether the provisions of the bill were being strictly carried out. The bill also laid down a certain amount of penalties that were to be inflicted according to the number of times the act was transgressed. Earl GRANVILLE regretted that opium was treated differently to other poisonous substances, but he thought that with a very few alterations the bill was well cal culated to remedy the evil that at present existed. Lord CAMPBELL heartily supported the motion. The bill was then read a second time. INDIA. In reply to the Marquis of BRRADALBA.NE, The Earl of DERBY said the power of the Governor- General in India was supreme over all matters civil and military. There was no reason to suppose that any but the best understanding existed between Lord Canning awl Sir Cohn Campbell. The Marqnis of LANSDOWNE expressed his grati fication at the announcement made by the noble earl, He had all along disbelieved all reports to the contrary. • Their lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY•) The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Loris' amendment.; to the Burghead Harbour Bill were considered and agreed to. The following bills were read a third time and passed : South Devon and Tavistock Railway, Ulverstone and Lancaster Railway, Victoria Station and Pimlico Rail way, and Yar Bridge. RA ILW A.Y LEGISLATION. Colonel W. PATTEN asked the Pmsident of the Board of Trade, whether her Majesty's Government had taken into their consideration the present syste:n of railway legislation ; and whether they were prepared to recommend to Parliament any alteration in that system? Mr. HENLEY said the question not only enabled him to give an answer on the subject, but it gave him an opportunity of putting another to the honour able gentleman. His honourable friend bad given notice on the votes of the house of its bein4 his intention shortly to mova for a Itoyal Commission on this subjact. Her Majesty's Govern ment, in the present state of information on the subject, were not prepared to recommend legislation in respect of it, but they admitted it required looking into, espe cially far the purpose of ascertaining how far the recom mendations laid down by Mr. Cardwell's committee had been adhered to, and their effect so far as they had been referred to. ( Hear, hear. ) He should be prepared to support the appointment of a committee IJr that purpose, and to give the committee su appointed every assistance in his power to render its working easy and quick, (Hear, hear.) Col. W. PATTEN then gave notice that on Monday be would withdraw the notice he bad given for the issue of a royal commission, and move the appointment of a committee as suggested. (Hear, hear.) WINDING-UP ACTS. Mr. BRIGHT asked whether it was the intention of the Government, without delay, to introduce a bill to remedy the defects of the Winding-up Acts, or on behalf both of shareholders and creditors, to prevent the funds of dissolved companies being wasted in unnecessary litigation ? Mr. HENLEY said a bill to remedy some of the few defects in the winding-up acts apparent to every one had been prepared, and he should be prepared in a short time to lay it on the table of the house (Hear, bear) It would not be a large measure, but would only deal with two matters that had been found to stop the working of the act, and prevent winding-up. He hoped it woul I be found to cure the difficulties com plained of, and that it would receive the support of the house and speedily bee-.me law. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT asked the right hon. gentleman if he could give an assurance the bill would be introduced in the course of the ensuing week ? Mr. HENLEY hoped to be able to do so. TRIAL OF THE ROYAL BRITISH BANK DIRECTORS. Mr. BRADY asked the Secretary of State if the scale of remuneration for the payment of the witnesses sum moned on behalf of the Crown at the trial of the Reyal British Bank Directors bad been arranged, and, if so, when the witnesses might expect payment? Mr. HARDY said the scale of payment bad been settled according to the rule adopted in civil cases. The time of payment depended on the solicitor who conducted the prosecution. COPYHOLD ACTS. Mr. lIANKEY asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether it was his intention to bring in a bill thi 4 session for the amendment of the Copyhold Acts ; and if so, when he proposed to sok leave to in troduce the bill ? Mr. HARDY said a bill for this purpose was in the hinds of the law officers of the Crown, and he believed it would be introduced on Monday next. On the motion of adjourning till Monday, Sir G. GREY explained certain points, under discus alma last night in supply, relative to the office of keeper and register of sesiens. TIIE DEANERY OF YORK. Mr. W. EW ART inquired of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for what special reasons the recent appoint ment had been made to the Deanery of York? Lord IIOTEIAM complained of questions of so wide a range being put. It wont 1 probably be a matter for the hon. gentleman to explain why his constituents bad se lected him over other candidates, and it might be not becanso he possessed better qealificetions t ban the others, but for special reasons resting with his constituents, and were the bouee - lo call uteri the right hon baronet the member for Wells t(ie tette the grounds on welch he had made appointments—(lang,hter)—during the five years be Lad been in office, it would be found te be a document tt. e•oul 1 exeits as great _a . Curiosity at any document that bad been pre sent ,d t o th e bi e re. Tne present Dean of Yo k was a man of blameless , : arid bee proachable charactk.r. He was unconnecte I with any extreme party in the Church, and preserved in a proper manner the (agility He (Lord Hotham) and appearance of the deanery.. had come to the conclusion in this mater tha . t her Me jesty's Government ha I faithfully and pidicially been advised, and acted on such advice, is the appointineot they had made SALE AND TRANSFER OF LAND (IRELAND) CHINA. BILL. Lord J. RUSSELL inquire i what was th e present On the motion for going int o committee on this bill, state of our relations with China; and asked for the Mr. J. D. F ITZGERALDmo n v e ed that it should be communica'ion of the terms which Lord Elgin had de- referred to a select committee. T power to sel Estates proposed atemse Courtunencumbered a p per mended from the Emperor of China, and of the answer to substitute for the Encumbered which had been received from the Chieee-e Government ? a rn n a d n e o n t gi tribunal ncoaulrltedp Landed states Court, He asked for what purpose Lord Elgin had been sent ice desirable titles further to the north, and our naval force in China had well as encumbered e , tates, and also to parliament, and which er been increased from 11,000 to 13,000 men, whilst a at the instance of any party. Those w i e a re m smaller force was sent there by France. If we had any injects in the main, for which he had contended ever conventions with foreign powers it ought to be coin- since he had had a seat in imp l icated to Parliament, as well as the demande, a had been as long opposed by the hon. and inertleared e any, th a t h a d b een ma d e on China. (H ear .) Perils- tleman opposite (M. IVhiteside). Seeing the imabletrnee not t . h a d a right to alit what was our actual benefits whicb the operation of the Encumbered Estates 1 ion with Coina, awl the policy her Majesty's Ge- Court had conferred upon Ire:and they ought to pao e vern mee e was pursu i ng i n reference to that country. before they abolished it, or put sotae other court iu its Toe article of tie treaty with rem ect to opium had been place. The noble lord oppoite (the Secretary for Ire hot, rioeel vi the .3' dated, no doubt with the concurrence of land), and the right hoc. gentleman the Attorney-Get .e -the people of Chi na , It was desirable to revise t! , at ral for Ireland, when out of office, expressed their oppe -3% R "nle asked f , i • a g e n e r al sta'e,nent of on; ' sition to the Encumbered Estates Act, and now that p st o a l n ie l i t h ' e w . rl e a c t 4 hat country, as it wag diffi :tilt to under- they were in office they took crelit to themselves for its orietnat beyond u'j ' of a mission that appeared to be going supporting it. During the seven or sight years that the purpose and intention. court had been in existence, it had sold property t, the The caNNert,LLol of th e EXCHEQUER said amount of 21,326,00 0 /. That was u p to April last. The the appointment w as made fer the advantage of the number of Irish purchasers w as 7,180, whilst the minus public and on ground s of (. t public ,ft benefit. With regard her of English, Scotch, and foreig n p urchasers was only to Chine, in ebnwsprthe sin.ll time her Mejeety's LO3. The I i 13 purehasers Expends 1 18, 000 , 000/. a g ain-t powe r Government had been in on t thees impossible for them to give further information3,ooo,oool. of capital expended by the others. This The late Governme%intbjeet than was showed the benefic:al opera'ion of the act. But it had already known. cave n L ;I'd a still more beneficial effect, and that was t hat itenable Elgin very wisely a wide dis cretion. d the occupying tenants to purchase the fee simple of t heir babtlity he was not a ware of . the cha nge all o f P " - her holdings. (Hear, hear.) It was the bounden du t y , f Majesty's Government. and haeneg the ut mos t con the he to see that any meanie on this subject w as deuce in Lord E l g in, her Aiajesty's Govern ment hadhews everything that it ought to be. In 1854 the Govern continued in him that wide discretion of action g iven to' wantof Lord Aberdeen issued a commission to inquire him by their predecess or ' . It was impossible for him intothis subject, and the resolution that the commission to give the motives that ha d induced Lord Elgin to came to svas, that the jurisdiction of the Encumbered leave Canton and go to Shanghai. lie (the Chancellor Estates Court should be transferred to the', Court of of the Exchequer) had no doub t Lord Elgin had ChanCery with peivetr . to give a parliamentary title on ti_uered as well as of encum es adopted a wise and proper course in doin g so, the Sele n e:d e hanednteh honest of introducing a bill to bered carry b ut beyond that he could give the house no in formation. ! tates, THE SUN, He was also uneNhle to give the house any information on the demands euide by Lord Eigio, that resting with the noble lord in the wide discretion that had been given to him. Rig object was to effect a direct commu nication between this country and the highest authorities in China. England was joined in the beginning with France, and afterwards with the United States, and Russia had lately given a partial concurrence in what we were doing in China. As soon as possible,'and con sistent with our allies, be woul I give the house further information on the subject. A message had been sent to Lord Elgin to return to Canton to meet the Chinese Cdfnmissioner. . Mr.' BRIGHT complained that the Chancellor of the Exchequer as usual had answered the question of the noble lord without giving any actual information. Re had not a seat in Parliam ent when the question first came before Parliament, and he had had no opportunity of stating his opinion on the origin of the complicated affairs they now found themselves involved in. He I entirely concurred in the course his hon. friend the late 1 member for the West Riding took on the occasion alluded to. Two unfortunate things resulted from fo reign co-partnerships in matters of this kind. Oae was, that the course of negotiations was by such alliances to a large extent taken out of te hands of the English G o vernment ; and, second h ly, that, according to the theory of the right honourable gentleman, the House of Commons, n coesequence of such alliances, could know nothing about the matter, be. cause having allies we must act with them. (Hear, heai:.) They did not know what object France had in joining us in the affair of China, any more than they did their own object, and it was not to be expected the House of Commons would wait until the negotiations were at an end to know what our objects were towards China. (Hear, hear.) The last war with China did no good beyond opening Canton to the commercial world, and this war was likely to be less productive if these complicated affairs were to be con tinued. He warned her Majesty's Government against continuing a war that originated with their predeces sors, and by adopting a straightforward course they would earn the respect of the people. Sir J. PAKINGTON said there were between 60 and 70 vessels, including between 18 and 20 gun-boats in the East, and there were rather more than 12,000 men there. That included the whole of the naval forces in the East Indies and China. That force would be re duced at the earliest practical moment. ARREST OF CAPTAIN JUDKINS—THE SLAVE TRADE AND COMMISSIONER YEll. Mr. HORSFALL asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether her Majesty's Govern• ment had received any intelligence from New York of the arrest of Captain Judkins of the Royal Mail steamer Persia ; and, if so, whether the circumstances of the case warranted such a procedure on the part of the American authorities. Mr. WILSON asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there was any objection to lay upon the table copies of correspondence between the British Government and that of the United States, upon the measures taken for the suppression of the Slave Trade ; and, if not, when such papers would be pro duced ? Mr. LAURIE asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how Commissioner Yeh was to be disposed of ; whether he was to be c mfined as a pri soner in India or in England ? Mr. S. FITZGERALD said her Majesty's Govern• ment had not received any official information on the arrest of Captain Judkins, and of course he could give them no official information respecting that circumstance, and they were unable to say if that arrest was justifi able or not. With reference to the question of the hon. member for Devonporth, her Majesty's Govern ment would give the correspondence referred to, espe cially as the American Government had published their version of the matter. Iler Mej Isty's Government had been in correspondence with the A inerican Government and expressed their regret should anything have occurred, but her Majesty's Government did not think it fit to ley secret correspondence at present before the house. Orders, had been sent out for an inquiry into the circum stances of the Cuban affair, and also instructions to our officers there to use the grea est caution in exer cising the power with which they had bean en trusted. With reference to the third question, it was ound desirable to remove Coneraiszioner Yeh from China, and ho was taken to Calcutta, where he now re mained, and he (Mr. Fitzgerald) feared the hon. gentle• man who had put the question would not have an oppor tunity of seeing Commissioner Yeh in this country. (Laughter.) STATE OF THE THAMES. - Mr. GRIFFITH asked the Chief Commissioner of Works whether ho was not aware that, in any conside ration of the state of the water of the Thames, the whole question at issue was that of the effect npou the purity of the air which might be produced by the liberation of gases injurious to health from the water. (The hon. member addressed the house amidst loud and repeated cries of "Oh, oh !" "adjourn," "order," and much laughter.) Lord J. MANNERS admitted his inability to answer the question, and suggested he should address a letter to the chairman of the committee now sitting, with re• ference to the Thames, stating his willingness to give valuable evidence on the subject. RIOTS AT BELFAST. Mr. J. FITZGER.A.LD called the attention of the house to the recent riots at Belfast, and asked the Clief Secretary for Ireland whether it was the intention of Government to propose any measure for the better pre servation of the peace and protection of property in that borough. Lord NAAS said, that on Sunday last, on the occa sion of the funeral of a man who had been the chairman of a well-known political association, an affray took place between the police and the Roman Catholic population. Several persons collected, and considerable excitement ensued. The operations of this riotous assemblage con sisted principally in stone throwing, and that no serious damage either to person or property was done. He was sorry to say that during the day aad night of Monday and Tuesday - these occurrences were repeated, and though he had no official information of what had taken place on Wednesday, he feared that up to a late hour that night the riotous proceedings had continued. Upon the first intimation that the Government had of these proceedings they took the strongest possible steps to repress them. A large force of cavalry were sent imme diately to Belfast, numbering nearly 1,000 men, Mr. Coulson, a stipendiary magistrate of the grea'est expe rience and intelligence, with two other stipendiary ma gistrates, had been ordered to proceed thither to assist Mr. Tracey. The Crown solicitor had been sent to take the depositions that might be laid against the rioters ; in fact everything that could be done to suppress these unfortunate proceedings had been done. (Hear, bear.) As to the measures which the Government proposed for ! the better preservation of the peace in future, it was his intention to submit to the house that evening a bill which proposed to deal generally with the police force in towns in Ireland ; and he thought the hon. and learned g n tleman would be perfectly satisfied with what was pro posed. He believed that the ordinary law of the coun try wa' amply sufficient for the suppression of 'riot and disturbance provided the law were put in force with prudence and energy. (Hear, hear.) He did not see that the Government could take any further steps in the matter ; and from what he had heard that afternoon he had every reason to believe that those riots would be promptly and speedily pat down. (Rear.) The state of the town was very different from what it was last year. The population had now no arms in their hands, and the riots were not likely to be of so serious a nature as they were last year. He could assure the house that the matter occupied the constant and hourly attention of the Government, and every means that prudence and experience could suggest would be used to put an end to these proceedings. (Hear.) Col. FRENCH said that all the measures taken would be at the public expense. Why should not Belfast he treated in the same way as any other district, and made t pay the crab of the increa ed force tLat i.ias required to put do en the disturbance ? The motion fir adjournment until Monday was then agreed to. • THE INDIAN RESOLUTIONS. Mr. GLADSTONE gave notice cf his intention to move two resolutions when the house ntxt went into committee on the Government of India. He proposed to move, as an amendment oo the third resolution, with which the discussion would begin—" Teat, regard belt g had to the position of affeis in In lie, it is expedient to constitute t'-.e Court ef Directors of the East India Com pany to be the council for adroinistericg the government of India, in th e DEMO of her Mejesty, and under the puperintendetUe of such responsible minister, until the end of the next session of parliament." In .he event of that amendment being agreed to he khou;d move a far th-r res , lation, to the effect that . the President of the Board of Control should be empowered to preside over the Court of Directors, in lieu of the cha'etnan thereof, and to exercise all the powers now (x-rcised by such chairman. out the resolutions of the commissioners, but the right hon. and learned gentleman opposed the extension of the principle to unencumbered estates. His bill was referred to a select committee with power to examine witnesses. He proposed now to refer the present bill to a select committee, but be did not mean that they should exa mine witnesses, but merely that they should sift the bill and then reproduce it to the house. If that course was not approved of by the house he was willing to consider it in committee of the whole house, for he entirely ap proved of the main object of the measure. The bill pro posed to abolish the present court, and to substitute for it a new court, to be called the Landed Estates Court. He had no oljection to any change of that kind, pro vided the new c iurt preserved the system for the free and open sale of landed estates. But it behoved them to apply those safeguards which would prevent the new court from becoming a second Court of Chancery. Now, what was to be the jurisdiction of the new court ? First, it was to have the sale of unencumbered as well as of encumbered estates ; the administration of the funds produced by the sales, and the settlement of all the equity connected with the estates. Where there were contracts for the sale of land the court was to carry out t' , e decree for their specific performance ; it was to ap point receivers, and to pronounce decrees concerning the titles of all persons who chose to come to it for that pur pose. If the house did not proceed with the utmost caution there was great danger lest a court invested with these powers should become a second Court of Chancery. The great object they had in view was to continue the system which gave the country the advan tage of a market overt for the sale of land, where per sons could purchase in whatever quantities they liked. Now, to encumber the court with the appointment of receiver. and, as connected therewith, the care and supervision of the estate, was to make the first departure from the simple character of the Encumbered Estates Court. (Hear, hear.) He must set his face against leaving to the new tribunal a power which would be so ruinous in its consequences as the appointment of re ceivers over the land. He also objected to giving to the new court the power of dealing with settled estates. Then the court was not only to sell estates but to enter tain the extensive jurisdiction for the enforcement of specific contracts for the sale of land in all their ramifi cations. He was not opposing the creation of a distinct court, but they ought to apply safeguards to prevent its becoming a second Court of Chancery. He wished to call the attention of the house to the 38th clause, which empowered the court to send questions of fact to be tried by a court of lair. All their attempts had been re cently directed to give unity of jurisdiction to the several courts, but this bill departed from that principle by em powering the new court to send issues to be tried by a court of law. The court would have to carry out the sales of the Court of Chancery, the Court of Bank ruptcy, and the Court of Insolvency ; yet the bill pro posed to reduce the court from three to two judges. He was anxious to save the country from any unnecessary expense, but he thought the efficiencyof the court shoul i be the first consideration. He hoped that two judges would be sufficient to do all the business. He could not speak too highly of the efficiency and activity of all the commissioners. What he should recommend would be this, that the three commissioners should be retained, but th it when a vacancy took place it should not be filed up unless public necessity required it. They could not in justice supersede Mr. Hargreaves with a less pension than the 2,0001. a-year, which was the salary which he bad as commiasiener. He would give all the judges the same salary. (Hear.) He begged to fall the attention of the right hon. gentleman the member for Ca lisle to the 72d clause of the bill, which empowered the court to nominate a number of conveyancing counsel—not less than three—to aid and assist the judges in the investi gation of titles to estates. And by the following clause it was provided that if any party objected to the opinion of the conveyancing counsel, the judge might instruct counsel to app tar before him for the purpose of support ing his opinion. (Hear.) This was a principle of the bill to which he must entirely objet`, because by giving the judge power to call in conveyancing counsel to aid him, the responsibility of the judge, which was the great se curity for the public, would be interfered with. Under the present system in this country there was the safe y t r be derived from the responsibility of a judge of high character sitting in court. But by the appointment of these conveyancing counsel the responsibility would be thrown on the advisers of the parties, and he entirely objected to the proposal. Another point was the mode in which the court was to be provided for by sec. 89. The expenses were to be met by a duty to be levied on all estates sold under the court, 10.1. per cent. under 10,0001., and 1 per cent. beyond. He quite approved of this principle, but he thought the higher rate should be levied on the smaller estates ; 201. would not be much on an estate of 2,0001., but on a large property like that of Lord Thornond, which lately produced 450,0001., the same per ceotage would amount to a very large sum. If this bill passed, it would remove almost all the business from the Court of Chancery ; at present the business of that court in Ireland was confined principally to the sale of estates, and if the new court got power to sell and ad• minister all the equities ari ing therefrom everybody , would prefer so cheap a tribunal to the Court of Chan cery, where he would be met at every step by fees and stamps. As to the proposed arrangement with the Bank of Ireland, be thought it would be impossible to keep the clause ; all the matter to which he had referred would be much better coesidered in a select committee. He would nsxt call attestors to the most important clause, the 50th, which gave the new jurisdiction to the court. To reference to this, and almost all the other clauses, he should say that the language was opea to the greatest objection, and the bill was evidently drawn up in a hurry. Under the 50th section, any owner who desired to have his title investigated, and a judicial de c!aration made that he had a good title, might apply to the court, whereupon the court should investigate it, and if the title appeared satisfactory the judge should make and sign a written declaration to that effect, sealed with the seal of the court, and should state in a schedule any leases, tenancies, and encumbrances to which the estate was subj set, and such declaration shall make it conclusive and indefeasible. The clause made no dis tinction between the owner of an estate in the land and the owner of the land itself. Under the clause the judge was bound to investigate the title of every incumbrancer and of every tenant. (Hear.) The owner might oblige every one of those parties to come before the court, and there was no pr vi-ion to make him liable for their costs. It was staid that the bill was founded on the report of the cemmittee last year, but it did not carry out one of their recommendation. The right hon. gentleman the Attorney-General for Ireland did not sufficiently dis tinguish between a registry of conveyances and a registry of titles ; the bill did nothing but establish a mode of conveyance with a statut able title. The present registry in Ireland was nothing but a registry of conveyance. He thought that the 'soth clause ought to be struck out ; it would 'pen the door to a great number of frauds. He was anxious that the bill should pass, bat for the reasons he had stared he thought it would be better to refer it to a select committee. He had no desire, how ever, to defeat the bill, and would withdraw his motion if his hon. and learned friend the Solicitor-General as sured him it would defeat the bill. He would only de tain the house with one more remark—that was in refer ence to the Master, Mr. Flanagan. That gentleman had given up a lucrative practice to accept his office, and to his exertion the success of the measure was in great mea sure owing. The bill proposed to dispense with his ser vices, and leave him to the mercy of the Treasury for compensition. He ought to be placed in the same posi tion as Mr. Hargreaves, and allowed his full salary un til appointed to some other poet. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was glad that this dis cussion had taken place, as he was satisfied the more the bill was discussed the more it would be approved of. He would beg to state shortly the reasons why he could not adopt the suggestion of the right hon. gentleman to re fer the bill to a select committee. The bill involved cer• tain leading and important features which must some time or. other be discussed by the house, and even if the bill went to a select c3minittee they would still require to be discussed in the house. In addition to these lead• ing features there were a number of details. All those details were borrowed from the Encumbered Estates C ,urt, where they had been tested by working. Th e bill, like all other large bills, was susceptible of improve anent; but he had real it carefully, and was bound to say it was dia en with the greatest care and skill. The measurefer the establishment of the En :umhered Estates Court was a very strong one, and was violently opposed. It his I, ho weve r, conferred great benefits on Ireland, and ell parties, owners of property and (Mere, admitted the great benefits It bad conferred. It was true the present Chancellor of I, elend had opposed his original bill, but he had :ince fully adopted the pi ieciple of a parliamentary title. Ile wo Id briefly call the attention of the house t , the principal features of the horiset - Trie first was it gave power to sill encumbered estates. That was notnine new. The second went further, and gave power to sell and give a parliamentary title to unencumbered estates. The third is eat still f, ether, and without any sale, simply on the requisition of the owner of a f,e simple, enabled the c .uri to invssitigate the title and give him an inde feasible title. With reference to the last two features, he must seer it had always appeared to him that the argument was most logical and most conclusive in favour of taking the three step. Suppose an estate wor.h 100,0001., having an encumbrance of 10,0001. on it, the encumbrancer was the owner of 1-10th of it, but as re garded the other 9-10:13s the est ate was unencumbered; there was no magic in the fact of there being an encum brance that afforded no additional security. On the contrary, no person had so much iuterest in concealing any flaw in the ti le as an encumbrancer. They could not confine the bill to encumbere 1 estates. If they did, it would be giving a premium to those who had acted ex travagantly ; and in practice the limitation would be in effectual, as there were many instances in which an en cumbrance was created merely to bring an estate under the jurisdiction of the present cour`a In point of prin ciple or of practicability, theref, re, they could not still shut out encumbered estates. The riev. point W 33 whether the title -hould not be given without the formality of a s de. There was no magic in the fact of a sale which gave any additional security ; their o'ject should be to obtain the greatest security human iugenuity could secure, and the best 'wide of doing so would require E very conside ebfirwr, :no; sledl upnd apply „pee d a t: going through the form of a tale as they now l e el aw l: od e: leid trusted cproom that peeri,,t yh ei nn i f t t ih l b r e i iy s s ts country. He t elieved owners of landed property were yiestdai sinsw;ir nisei el:a:en, nqad y u b, i ,rt s ta i he t nem e cte t its o m.o obtain a ti le, they would hardly aware of the bees , fit such a measure wouls be to them. No lazes to which the land was subject pressed so heavily as those connected with the sale and trans fer of it. S -me years ago an act was passed "To render the assignment of satisfied terms unnecessary," he bad felt some curiosity to ascertain what saving had been effected by it, He applied to one of the most eminent conveyancers, and from the data furnished by him,: he was satisfied the saving was not less than 300,0001. If a bill like the present passed it would increase the value of every fee simple to the owner from 5 to 10 per cent. The right hon. gentle vas s-ete afraid the new court would LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JUNE 5, I degenerate into another Court of Chancery, he should be sorry if it did ? but the right hon. gentleman had himself proposed to establish a similar court as a branch of the Court of Chancery, when the danger of such a degenera tion would have been much greater. The right hon. gen tleman objected to the proposed power to the court to apptiat receivers. He should be sorry to see anything like a system of permanent receivers, which had been the curse of Ireland ; but he thought it would be desir able the toart should have such a power for the protec tion of all parties, as an estate might be in court for 12 months before it was sold. Tue right hon, gentleman said the bill removed the jurisdiction conferred on the Court of Chancery by the Lease and Sale of Settled Estates Act. By that act the Court of Chancery was empowered to sell, but not give a parliamentary title ; and unless a change was made these estates would be in a more unfavourable position than any other. It seemed to him absolutely necessary, therefore, that if this bill was passed, settled estates should have the benefit of its provisions. With regard to the judges of this court, he concurred in everything which had been said iu praise of the eminent persons to whom he referred. He thought the country owed a debt of gratitude to Mr. Longfield and Mr. Hargreave, on account of the manner in which the Encumbered Estates Court had been worked by them. Whatever they might do in the way of legisla tion, the goodness or badness of the court must depend in a great degree on those who had to carry it into ope• ration, and the gentlemen whose nameshe had mentioned had from the first set themselves to work in such a man ner as to gain for their court the highest reputation. The question of an increase in the number of the judges was a fit subject for consideration in committee ; bat the result of the inquiries of the committee of that house and the commission of 1855 had led him to the conclu sion that two judges would be sufficient. A third judge would of course require a separate staff, and the ques tion of expense was therefore a very serious one. It shoul I be borne in mind that hitherto the two judges had sat alternately, whereas in future they were to sit simul taneously, and that would add considerably to the amount of business transacted within a given time. As regarded the employment of conveyancing counsel, which was ona of the recommendations of the chief commie sinner, ho might observe that at present, when a title was brought into court it was in the first instance re ferred for examination to any counsel whom the solicitor promoting the proceedings chose to select, and the fee paid for that examination formed part of the expenses of the sale. The chief commissioner had found the exa minations hither to unsatisfactory and needlessly expen sive top the suitor. If such investigations were to take place care should be taken that the conducting of them should be placed in proper hands ; and the provision in question was inserted for that purpose. The right hon: gentleman (Mr. J. D. Fitzgerald) said that, inasmuch as by this bill they gave power whenever there was an estate to be sold to sell it with a parliamentary title they did not thereby draw the business of the Court of Chan cery into this new court. Considering that the right hon. gentleman began by deprecating the regarding the Court of Chancery as a proper tribunal for the sale of land, he should rather have expected him to rejoice at what he now appeared to apprehend. Besides, he should recollect that the sales would be chiefly sales in which encumberers were concerned, and which would therefore properly eoma before the court. The only other observation which he would make related to the 50th clause, by which the title was declared to be conclusive and indefeasible. On that subject he would remark that all that was done by the clause was to declare that the particular title described in the declaration was conclusive and hide feasibie. If necessary, that clause might be amended in committee. The right hon. gentleman objected to the proviso with regard to registration. The house was aware that in Ireland registration took place whenever there was a sale or transfer of an estate. All that was done by this bill was to provide that the piece of parchment exhi bited in the Encumbered Estates Court should be placed on the register. The bill did not offer a complete registra tion c f titles, but it cleared the way for it whenever a general measure should be passed to secure that object. In conclusion, he trusted the right hon. gentleman would not persevere in his proposal of a select committee, and that Parliament would be enabled during the present session to pass a measure which he believed would prove ono of the greatest boons that could be conferred on the landed interest of Ireland, and which he hoped would be a step towards the passing sf a similar measure for the benefit of the landed interest of England. (Hear.) Sir R. BEMELL begged to assure the hon. and learned gentleroan ( Whiteside) by the remarks which be was about to make he had no wish to prevent the passing during the present session of a measure the merits of which he folly admitted. He should, however, be ex ceedingly glad if be would accede to the suggestion that the bill should be referred to a select committee. The great difficulty was that they were creating a great co ordia tej urisdicti ir, which, nevertheless, had not a juris diction co-extensive with that which existed in England, and the effect might be that parties would have to resort to the older court, the court of equity, to have one thing done, and to this new court to have another thing done. That was a difficulty of the most serious kind ; and he thought it would be the best that the means of meeting it should ba considered by a select committee. However great the authority of the new court might be, it would be limited as regarded the subject matter. Cases would arise in which the subject matter would be partly landed property and partly personal property ; and as the bill stud it was necessary that the former should be dealt with by one tribunal and the latter by the other. That was a_very great diffLzulty, and it- could only be dealt with properly by'by select -oommi , ttee: That was not, however, his sole reason for advocating the appointment of a select committee. Contemporaneously with the introduction of this measure, Lord Oran worth brought forward in the House of Lords a bill for facilitating the sale and transfer of land in England. That bill having come down to that house, it was his intention to move that it be referred to a select committee, and as it pro po,ed to give to the court of equity in England preciely the same functions and powers that were delegated by the pie ent bid to a distinct and independent tribunal in Ireland, he thought it desirable that the two bills Should be considered by the same committee. Thera was Baw -1 ther subject which was undoubtedly of very great im portance, and on which a measure had been prepared, which he (Sir R. Bethell) would not introduce during the present session lest his doing so should have the effect of embarrassing the right hon. gentleman ; he re ferred to the general registration of titles, (Hear, hear.) That was a subject which had engaged his attention for a considerable period, and his views were embodied in a bill, which would, he thought, command the attention of those who were most interested in the matter. There were some important matters which were omitted in this bill. The bill gave power to any owner of an estate to apply to the court, and an "owner" was described ire the owner of any limited t i h n e te i r n e t s e t r . p re t a ti o n clause as Mr. WHITE3IDE said that had been corrected, and the clause referred to the o racer ofan estate in fee simple. Sir H. BETHELL -- It might have been corrected, but still Rivas a most difficult problem to determine what measure of interest should be deemed sufficient to call the new court into ac'ion. The 38th section provided that the court should have power generally to ascertain and all parties in any land in re spect eonfwrheic the rights ati ofon might be made under the act, If there were any meaning in those words the owner of any limited interest might bring the whole estate under happiic the centr 1 of the court, and the court would then have power to declare what was the interest of every per sonhis opinion, a duty which ought in to any but, the highest j udit not concerned. to be That entrusted was, udi cial tribunal ; although he fully concurred in the en osmium which had been passed on the two gentlemen who had presided in the Encumbered Estates Court. These were matters which would be best censiderel by a select committee, and lie trusted that the right hon. gentleman (Ur. Whiteside) would assent to that view. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL had heard with great satisfaction, though not with surprise, his hon. and learned friend's assent to the main principle of this bill ; but he thought the effect of referring it to a select com mittee would be greatly to endanger the passing of it during the present session. He agreed with the right hon. gentleman the late Attorney-General for Ireland, that it was laves-Me to be too oautious in dealing with such a subject as this, involving, as it did, the security of the leaded property of the kingdom. It must not, however, be forgotten that they were legi.lating in this case by the light of experience, and that no evil had hitherto resulted from the working of the Encumbered Estates C. urt. (Hear, hear.) In considering the ques tion whether they should proceed at once with this bill, he could not help refisc'ing on the great and mighty benefits which would accrue to Ireland, and in the end to Eegl in I, if they could succeed in establishing a court with enlarges! joeieelietion nod adcgtotte functions: under which the titles of land wight The eftectuifl`ftegistered, and wbieh might be made the foundation of a general system of tr inaferrirg land. The benefits which might be expected to arise fr. m that s urce were incalculable. (Hear, hear) His a tention had been long directed to that subtle, and the report of a committee, of which Lis hon. and learned friend (Sir R. Bethel!) was a member, guaranteed to the house the entire practicability of establishing, with adequate safeguards, a system of complete registr a ti on of titles and of easy and secure transfer of land. It had been found in Ireland that fictitious encumbrances had been created in order to create a fictitious jurisdiction in the court to effect that which was found to be eo great a benefit to all per sons interested in the transfer of land. And when they were threatened with the danger of conferring so great a jurisdiction en a court to be created he thought that they hail only to consider what might now be done indirect'' , in the Encnrnberel Estates Court, and di rectly, tooth in Eueland and Ireland, by means of the Court of Chancery; and those dangers and difficulties would entirely disappear. The power of the Court of Chancery in snits for specific performance was analogous as t> any difficulty which might be apprehended. If a he desired ten tines in the course of his life to raise gentleman in this country had 1,000 acres of la n d which money upon by 11-wag:iv., or to otherwise eater into trausections affecting his title, ten times over must he incur the expenses of investigating the entire tit's of that estate. In many CA.OO where the estate was not large, but the title seat what ancient or complicated, it might be found that the whole value of the estate iu fee simple bail been spent du: - log the lifetime of one ma n, i n rel desired t sell two acre out of 2,000, he must g peated hive Options of the title. So again , if a gentle manthrough the whole expense of investigating the t:411), the same as he would incur in selling the fee simple of the entire estate. If a person during a portion of his life should sell on several c.comioas several portions of his estate, be would ir.cur on those several occasions the co nplete expense of investigation of the title, and it was impossib.e to say how much of the fee imple would be wasted in that investiga' ion. Whereas if it were done under tI is bill it might be done by one single investiga tion of the title, and a declaration of the title would be given by the court, so teal the owner from that date got in effect a new tilde, and when, from that time forth, ho should desire to mortgage, even over and over again, or to part with it by selling it in several small portions, there was this declaration of title affirmed-by the court, which would enable the owner to deal with the pr - operty in every way, as long as that de claration should endure. Was there any danger that per. sons who should claim title in such estates might be wronged by this bill ? No injustice of the kind occurred in consequence of suits for specific performance. His hon. and learned friend opposite had raised several objections to the jurisdiction of the court proposed to be established, but the chief objections ho had heard appeared to him, when carefully considered, to answer each other. One o' jectloa raised by his right hon. friend, who proposed a select committee, was that this court would have power of directing issues of fact or a trial by jury in some distant part of the country, while on the other hand the hon. member for Aylesbury (Sir R. Bethell) raised a difficulty that, in order to give a good title the court would usurp or invade the functions of the Court of Chancery, and we might have a conflict of jurisdictions. He thought that these objections were more apparent than real. In the Probate Court they had there, as here, a second and distinct court, in which questions of magnitude and importance might arise, and the Divorce Court was another instance, but there was no conflict of jurisdiction ; there was provision made for any difficult questions which might arise. If such a question of fact arose in reference to the title of a large landed estate, which might come under investigation in this new court—a question, for instance, as to the com petency of the testator to make a will—there was a proviso under which the judges of the court might direct an issue to be tried by a jury, or enaction to be brought in the same way as an action of ejectment brought to recover the land, and disposed of in the same manner. It was said that there would be a coal ct of jurisdiction with the Court of Chancery, and a conflict of decisions, but the bill provided an answer to that. The bill said that when any difficult question should arise, a case might be stated for a court of law, and there might be an appeal against the decision of that court, which appeal at last might be carried to the House of Lords. There was one objection more which he had heard with considerable surprise. The objection was, that if this court were established, proceedings would take place which would have the effect of drawing away from the Court of Chancery a great deal of its business. It would, he thought, be the greatest praise which could be bestowed on this measure, to say that all who wanted to investigate title, should find it convenient to go to this court instead of to Chancery. With the able and sincere assistance which his right hon. friend would derive from hon. and learned gentlemen opposite he was sure that any necessary corrections could be made, and that there would be no difficulty in providing all neces sary safeguards. If his right hon, friend should be suc cessful iu carrying this bill through Parliament he would confer a great and lasting benefit open the country. Lord J. RUSSELL rose not to enter into the details of the bill, but to make a few observations on the mode of proceeding with the bill, and as to the general prin ciples involved. The hon. and learned member for Ayles bury (Sir R. Bethell) had agreed with the proposal to refer the bill to a select committee. He had listened to him while he gave his reasons, but it appeared to him that there were some great principles in the bill which it was necessary that the house should decide, and he could not think that it would be satisfactory to the house that this bill should go to a select committee, without reserv ing their own power of deciding on those principles. (Hear, hear.) As to the framing and w/ording of the bill he doubted whether in a select committee there would be greater agreement between his hon. friend (Sir R. Bethel)) and the Attorney-General than there would be in this house. (Hear, and a laugh.) He thought that the learned Attorney-General forlreland had hardly done justice to his right hon. friend, the Master of the Rolls, to whom great gratitude was due in reference to this sub ject. Sir R. Peel by a measure of a totally different kind had caused extensive settlement of questions as to land, but his measure did not resemble this. The question involved was one which had been entertained for a very considerable time, and he remembered that Lord Cot• tenham could not be persuaded for some time that there would be any progress in reference to encumbered estates, unless the persons who had encumbered gave their assent to proceedings. Sir John Romilly proposed a measure which was af.er wards carried, and Lord Cot tenham assented to that measure, and by that mean,- this piece of legislation was inaugurated. He was very glad that learned gentlemen who had had full opportu• nity of observing the working of this bill, and to whom complaint would have come if there had been any, had been so well satisfied that they were prepared to estab lish a curt of the nature contemplated. When he came into the house he was disposed to think that the Attor ney-General had carried the principle of the bill some what too far. In the beginning it was a very strong measure, and though they might take a certain course as to encumbered estates, it was a doubtful matter whether they could carry that principle out in reference to other species of estates. He himself was satisfied that they could carry the principle somewhat further, so as to make it apply to estates for sale; but he thought the. the learned Solicitor-General had proved very clearly that they could not stop short there either in law cr practice, and that other estates, which were neither encumbered or for sale, would be brought by their owners, by some species of evasion, within the compass of this court, and that, therefore, it was better to de directly that which otherwise would be done indirectly. (Hear. hear.) He did not think it followed that when they had very much enlarged the sphere of this measure that they shculd then proceed to make the number of judicial officers of the court smaller than it had hitherto been. (Hear.) He thought that the proper course would be to keep up the three judges which they had hitherto had, and that it should be declared that in case of a vacancy it should not be lawful fur th crown t fill up the vac incy without having recourse t r parliament. He thought it seeme I unwise, without ci en sing the hardship in any particular cam-, that Mr. Hargreave, who had been for many years in the exercise of his judicial functions, and had sue ceeded in overcoming prejudice and giving great satis faction ; he repeated that it seemed unwise, instead of giving that gentleman a sufficient salary to do the work for which he was competent, that they should give him a very considerable retiring pension without requiring any services whatever. He hoped that the author of the measure would consider this matter. It seemed to him that his right hon. feend the member for Ennis (Mr. Fitzgerald) said that persons who could get their estates disposed of at a small cost in this court would no longer go to the Court of Chancery ; but it seemed to him that this was not so much a reason against this measure as it was a reason for diminishing the expenses of the Court of Chaucer;-, and doing away with some of the forms of that court, rather than clipping the wings af this new court. He should readily give his vote for going into committee on this bill without having a select com mittee. He trusted that in establishing a court, which he bad no doubt would be very useful to Ireland, it might hereafter be useful to England ; and he must say he was glad that the government was giving attention to this measure with the view to carrying it this session. Mr. MALINS thought that there could be no second ' opinion as to the principle of this bill ; and the onl) question was, whether there should be a committee of the whole house or a select committee. No doubt a select committee would embrace most of the prac tical men in the house ; and it they could insure their attendance constantly, he should feel inclined to concur with the proposition of the right hon. member for Ennis (1(r. Fitzgerald). There, however, it would be a discussion between lawyers ; and though it woull be the same in that house, there would there be a considerable body cf assessors. On the whole, he was in favour of a committee of the whole house. He con curred in the universal opinion that the Encumbered Estates; Act had been of great advantage to Ireland, and he thought that the same principle should be extended to unencumbered estates. Not that he thought that there were many unencumbered estates. (A laugh.) He was surprised that his bon. friend had not adhered to the principle of making this court a branch of the Court of Chancery. He was surprised to find in the 39th section the power was given to this court which h'ad been taken away from the Court of Chancery. He al luded to the power of sending a special case for the opi nion of a court of law. With respect to land generally, there were more morgages than sales of estates, and therefore he did n ;t see why the mortgagee should not ' have a parliamentary title as well as a purchaser. He believed that a great number of the estates purchased under the court had been mortgaged immediately after. He was for at once proceeding to a committee of the whole house, and for rejecting the proposal for sending , the bill to a select committee. Mr. I. BUT r entirely approved of the principle of the bill, but objected to it as not going a step further in making the tran e fer of land as easy as the transfer of stock. He saw no insuperable difficulty in connection with land to prevent so desirable a consummation. In Ireland they had a system of maps which would enable them in a moment to identify the smallest parcel of land in the country. This was with respec tto land the great difficulty, but in Ireland it was a diffices ty overcome, and therefore he did not see why the present desirable oppor tunity should be allowed to pass for making a most im portant piece of legislation complete. A great defect in the working of the court was the expiration of the parliamentary title with the first purchaser, When the property was purchased in the court the title was declared to be indefeasible, but if at the end of ten years the purchaser wished to sell his was obliged to go through all the expensive searches and delays of the old system. Why not allow this indefeasible Parliamentary title to be transferred with every transfer of property ? (Hear, hear.) He had also complaints to make of the machinery proposed, which with an increased amount of work, was to be very much diminished in numerical force and efficiency. The hon. and learned member proceeded to point out matters of detail in which be thought the bill was imperfect, and from which he con tended that a discussion of it before a select committee was indispensable. It, theref ire, the right hon. and learned member for Ennis divided, he (Mr. Butt) should go into the lobby along with him. Mr. ADAMS was opposed to the motion for sending the bill to a select committee, considering that every point of investisation had been exhausted by the royal commis sioners. With respect to the number of judges, it should be remembered that the amount of business would roost probably diminish year by year, and then let them remem ber how difficult it was to remove a judge when once ap pointed, while, if the business increased, an addition to the staff could always be made with facility. (Heir, hear.) lie diirnot believe that there would b 3, as had been stated, more difficulty in dealing with unencumbered estates, than was experienced in dealing with the encumbered estates. In fact, even fictitious encumbrances were got up for the purpose of obtainiog the Parliamentary title. But they were not about to establish a new principle, but merely to extend the application of a principle that had been eminently successful. They had the machinery ready to their hands—a machinery which had been found effi clout in carrying out the experiment which had been made. The great difficulty of increasing the number of, small in dependent freeholders in Ireland—a class which,fortned a most valuable portion of the population of this country— had been the expense of clearing off encumbrances, and the 1 - f3-5-87--- clearing up the title, theexpense e d which, when the pro- interesting and valuable contents of the British Museum, porty was divided into small holdings, was as great as the National Gallery, and our other national collections. value of the hand. He dutnet think it would be wise to add (Hear, hear.) a branch to the Cou r t o f Ch a ncery fin- dealing with this , Sir J. SHELLEY had listened to the speech of the class Of property, while they had all the machinery for an I Chancellor of the Exchequer with great pleasure, and independent and an inexpensive tribunal. He should sup- I hoped they would hear no more of removing the National port the motion for going into committee. I Gallery to Kensington. (Hear, hear.) The trustees of the Sir E. PERRY believed that the history of the Encum- British Museum were not to blame for the non-opening of bered Estates Court showed it to be the most successful the institution on Sunday, which was the act of the house instance of law reform that had been witnessed in modern itself ; but he thought the Museum might be kept open to times. But the success was attributable to the work being a later hour on week days. done by the commissioners themselves instead of its being Mr. CO WPER did not think that the artisans of Lon• deputed to masters and clerks, and to the rule they had don were so hard worked that they could not pay a visit laid down, that mere matters of form were never to be al- to the British Museum in the course of the six working lowed to interfere with justice. But instead of this satis- days of the week. They could, at all events, visit it if it factory court the right hon. gentleman proposed to estab- were open in the evening of those days. It was said that lish a court of the same rank and position as the Court of if the Museum were lighted up in the evening there would Chancery—to raise the salaries of the judges—to give them .be great danger of its being destroyed by fire, but careful clerks anclian expensive establishment—the result of which watching and reservoirs of water would prevent such a Ihe believed would be to destroy the efficiency of the catastrophe. If the library were not to be opened to the tribunal, working classes in the evening, the trustees, who had many Mr. MONSELL expressed his gratitude to the right , duplicate copies which they did not want and desired to hon. and learned gentleman for introducing this measure, get rid of, ought at least to be empowered to give them to and he hoped it would be proceeded with as rapidly as mechanics' institutions. possible. There was nothing he should more deprecate Mr. AYRTON did not wish to enter upon the subject of than the referring this bill to a select committee, which opening the British Museum on Sundays, as it had been would be composed principally of lawyers. He thought decided by a large majority that it should not be opened. the bill so good that it would be most unwise to risk its But ho desired to state that all the inhabitants of the me being injured by the alteration which a select committee tropolis would hear with very great satisfaction that we so composed would be likely to make. The various sugges- were going to get rid of the Kensington-gore establish tions which had been made were all matters of detail which ment. (Hear, hear.) He believed that the minds of all might be well discussed in committee of the whole house. people would be greatly relieved when they heard that the Col. GREVILLE also thought the right hon. and consideration of that question was to be no longer ember learned gentleman was entitled to the thanks of the house raised by the peculiar ideas of some people in relation to and the country for introducing this measure. The Encum- that Property. But he hoped that the Chancellor of the bared Estates Court had worked beneficially, and the time Exchequer would take care that he should not be over had arrived when the benefit of the parliamentary title reached in the bargain. (A laugh.) He thought the right should be extended to unencumbered as well as to encum. hon. gentleman would do well before he concluded the bered estates. The 15th clause was open to objection, be- bargain, to call in some person cognisant of the value of cause, the court being permanent, he did not see what ob- land in the neighbourhood in questian, in order that the ject the proprietor could have in obtaining the Parliamen- public might receive fall value before they relinquished tary title until he wanted to sell his estate. There was their part cf the property. He hoped that care would be other objections, bat they all referred to points of detail, taken to secure to the public payment not only of theprin with which the committee of the whole house on the bill cipal, but of the interest that had accrued. He was glad would be perfectly competent to deal. that the question of the National Gallery might now be Mr. WHITESIDE was happy to be able to inform the discussed irrespective of that particular estate. He had no house that the bad not received a single communication doubt that a desirable site would be easily found in the from Ireland against the bill. (Hear, hear.) The bill cer- centre of the metropolis for the erection of a National tainly was the result of the very best consideration which Gallery. the Government could give to the subject. The power Mr. JACKSON hoped the Government would inform given to the new court was not to organise the establish- the house distinctly as to the terms on which the partner. ment of Chancery suits, but to effect the sale of estates. If ship in the Kensington property was to be dissolved. the house when in committee should object to the clauses Mr. KINNAIRD believed that the land in the theme ' appointing the conveyancing clerks, he would be quite diate vicinity of the plot of ground in question had this willing to have the clauses struck out. At the same time, year increased at least three times in value. He trusted he thought it would turn out that the house would be of that nothing would be done to alter the vote to which the opinion it would be well to retain them. With regard to house came against the opening of the British Museum on Mr. Hargraves, he had only to say that a clause would be Sundays, but that it would be opened during some of the introduced into the bill declaring that should that gentle- other days of the week at such hours as would enable the man be appointed to any other office under the Crown of working classes to visit it. greater or as great emolument as the retiring salary allowed The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought it to him, that salary would forthwith cease. With respect would be better to refrain from going into details on the to the ease olMr. Flanagan, of course the Treasury would Kensington property until he introduced a measure upon adequately provide for the claims of that gentleman. it. (Hear, hear.) He might, however, observe with re- Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD then withdrew his amend- spect to the statement of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Kin inept, and the house wont into committee on the bill pro naird) as to the increase in the value of land in the neigh forma, for the insertion of certain verbal amendments and bourhood in question, that that increase had taken place with a view to the bill being reprinted. with regard to land for building purposes ; but the land The house having resumed, immediately went into com- purchased by the Royal Commissioners could on ly b e use d mittee of supply. for the original corporation—viz., for the purposes of art. THE BRITISH MUSEUM. Mr. CON INGHAM submitted that the British Museum Lord J. RUSSELL rose to move the estimates for the ought to be opened to the working classes five or six days British Museum. The increase in this year's vote was in the week. The state of the Museum might truly be said 12,8301. The increase was owing to several causes. In the to represent the state of civilisation and mental culture. first place, the increase of salaries, secondly that the ap- t No one who walked through the thoroughfares of the me• pointment of a new officer, the keeper of the mineralogies ; tropolis, and saw the frightful monuments of celebrated and thirdly, to the augmentation in the amount to be men, could help regretting that those who had to decide voted for the purchase of books. The sum that would upon the erection of those monuments did not take the henceforth be asked each year for that purpose would be trouble to visit the museum and inspect the wonderful an -10,0 ;'Ol. The noble lord concluded by moving the vote of cient monuments there. Had they done so, they could 79,2751. for the purpose of the museum. never have sanctioned such solecisms and deformities as sch w em it eh hadsom some satisfaction tisfigavcetinon up, that be lee cau h ie ea h rd e Sir J. TRELAWNY asked whether any steps were were to be seen at Hyde-park-corner and Trafalgar-square. (Roar, hear.) the h B e a r r o .) m p l t t o was n being taken to admit the working classes to the museum on Sundays after divine service ?(Roar, Lord J. RUSSELL did not think the trustees had any was instrumental in preventing the removal of the pictures power in this respect, or that if they had, they would exer- in the National Gallery beyond the reach of- the inhabi cise it to open the museum upon the Sabbath. (Hear.) tants of the metropolis. If the Royal Academy were re- Sir J. TRELAWNY pressed the justice of throwing moved from Trafalgar-square the National Gallery would the museum open to the working classes on Sundays. be large enough to contain all those pictures for which there Mr. GLADSTONE said that the House of Commons, was now no room. We had expended 10,0001. for pictures not the trustees of the museum, should determine the which we had not room to exhibit. When the estimates large question of throwing open public buildings on the for the National Gallery came on he would take the sense Sabbath. (Hear, hear.) of the committee upon that mismanagement. Sir J. TRELAWNY would take an opportunity of test- Lord ELCHO thought that if any justification were ing the sense of the House of Commons on this question. needed of the observations which had fallen from him in Lord ELCHO referred to the want of space at present reference i. the British Museum it was to be found in the felt in the British Museum for the various collections. speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He might also Some beautiful specimens of marble had recently arrived be permitted to say that he was extremely glad to hear from Halicarnassus, and there was no place to put them in. from the right hon. gentleman that there was an end of the He recommended that the collections of natural history— long•debated question of the site of the National Gallery. nany of which were duplicated, and in some cases tripli- The vote was then agreed to, as were also one of 26,8374 cated—should be removed from the Museum. Dispersed for new buildings, and one of 5,0001. for purchases. over the metropolis were several collections of mineral The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the produce; and it would be a great advantage to systematise house resumed: them. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who took a deep interest in the subject, would grapple with it. Mr. GREGORY fully bore out the complaint of the noble lord as to the deficiency of space for additions to the collections.. The hon. gentleman also stated his intention of pressing on the house the expediency of inaugurating lectures in the museum for the benefit of the middle class, Mr. DUFF put in a plea for an augmentation of the salaries of the second class of officers in the Museum. The experiment of lecturing by Professor Owen had been at tended with distinguished success. These minor officers were also well qualified to lecture on the various subjects with which they were daily made familiar. Sir P. EGERTON expressed a hope that some facilities might be afforded to the working classes on certain days, to view the treasures of the Museum. Mr. TITE was of opinion that the natural history col lection might be removed with advantage to the Lirnean collection. He asked the noble lord the member for Lon don whether greater notoriety could not be given to the various munificent bequests which were constantly being made to the museum? He thought the question of salaries ought to be left to the managers of the museum. sir J. TRELAWNY urged that the museum should be opened three days in the week, after the working hours of the artisan, and that on Sundays the working classes should be admitted to that portion of the picture collec tion illustrative of Scripture history. Lord J. RUSSELL said that the-question of opening the Museum on Sundays was a matter for Parliament to settle. The Mediaeval collection, perhaps, might be re moved with advantage, but others it would not be advan tageous to remove. The trustees had considered the pro position of throwing the Museum open in the evening, and had come to the conclusion that by adopting that course there would be a great danger of fire. In the summer, however, the hours during which the working classes could view the Museum had been enlarged. Mr. J. LOCKE pressed the hardship of depriving the working classes of the opportunities of visiting these idify ing collections on the only day at their unlimited disposal. Saturday half-holidays were a farce, if the men were mulcted of their pay on those days. He believed that the feeling of the house was in favour of opening the Museum on Sundays, and he hoped they would give practical ex pression to it, notwithstanding the counter feeling amongst certain constituencies. Mr. GLADSTONE reminded the hon. member that the house had already expressed an emphatic opinion against throwing the Museum open on the Sabbath. With regard to the case of 'the minor officers of the Museum, the fact was that their salaries had some time ago been augmented. The question of methodising the various collections was too large a one to be dealt with in the present discussion. His own opinion was that ultimately the collections would have to be separated. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed with the right hon. gentleman that the time would come —in deed, he might say had come—when they must consider the question of how the public collections of this country could most effectively be arranged. This was a question which could no longer be avoided. He was not at all pre pared to say that the consideration of the question should be postponed. Committees and royal commissions had completely fulfilled their tasks; all the information re quired upon the subject was in the possession of the house, and what was wanted was a determination to avail them selves of that information, in order to act upon it. He felt it was the duty of the Executive Government not to shrink from the question of the British Museum, as that would probably be the first establishment that would com pel them to come to some solution of the difficulty. It was in the various, almost the universal, character of that collection that the difficulties which the house had now to contend with found their principal origin, and he was afraid they would not be able to encounter the obstacles in their path until they simplified the contents of the Mu seum. If they maintained the various collections of which the Museum consisted in a manner to preserve their cha racter as first-rate collections, it was impossible that they could keep them under the same roof. The only condition under which they could keep them under the same roof was that they should become separate collections, a con clusion which the nation would not readily sanction. (Hear.) Allusion had been made to the frequent and mu nificent efforts which the country had made at intervals to obtain proper sites. Without space nothing effective could be done, and it was the want of space that had been the cause of the scattered position of our collections, and of our being unable to effect that convenient arrange ment which was so necessary for the public accommoda tion. A great effort was made six years ago, when he proposed that the House of Commons should vote a stun of 180,0001. in aid of a sum of equal amount, which was the balance left from the receipts obtained at the Great Exhibition of 1851. With that united sum, amounting to upwards,. f 300,0001., an extensive portion of land at Kensington was purchased, with the idea that there would be an opportunity of our scattered collections find ing a home where they might be seen to great advantage by the public. That site had been held by the Royal Com missioners on behalf of the public ; but it was useless to disguise the fact that the expectations which the house indulged in when it voted 180,0001. had been entirely dis appointed. (Hear) The partnership between the Exhibi tion Commissioners and the House, though conceived in a right spirit, bad not been fruitful of results. Objections had been raised to the site itself, as being at too great a distance from the centre of the metropolis ; other causes had operated in the same direction, and the result had been that, though a considerable period had elapsed since the purchase of the Kensington estate, few of the greet objects contemplated had b en accomplished. Indeed, the only one had been a temporary museum of science and art, but the success of that establishment had- not, .as perhaps might have been expected, induced the public generally to change their opinion upon the main question. The question now was, what, under these circumstances, was best to be done ? He had to state that the Exhibition Commissioners had made a proposition to the Government which he thought deserved the attention of the house. It was to dissolve the partnership which bad been so barren of results. The Commissioners called upon the Government, in the first place, to assist them in carrying out the original scheme, but the Government did not find themselves hi a position to do so, ead then the commissioners proposed that they should repay to the country the sum of 180,0001. voted by the Holies of Commons six years ago, with a moiety of all rents received during the interval. On the part of the Government he had assented to that proposition, subject, of course, to the approval of the House. He believed they would find it a prudent and advantageous arrange ment. (Hear, hear, hear.) The Royal Commissioners would thus become the sole proprietors of the land at Kensington, seal would be able to devote it to the purposes of science and art. There would be an en lof all those jealousies which hae so long prevailed, and all intention or power of placing the National Gallery at Ken sington would of course be given up. (Hear.) If the house agreed to that arrangement, which it would soon be his duty to bring more formally under their notice, they would then have to consider the question of the National Gallery without reference to the site at Kensington-gore. (Hear.) Thus would terminate an old and painful controversy. (Hear.) He trusted that the discussion which had taken pl ice would convince the house and the country of the necessity of encountering difficulties which could no longer be procrastinated,- and that some satisfactory arrangement would soon be made for the accommodation of the highly- SUPPLY REPORT. Mr. FITZROY brought up the report of the Committee of Supply. On the question that the first resolution, granting a sum of 46,130/. for solicitor.' charges, including Mint prosecu tions, be agreed to. Mr. HAMILTON took occasion to state—several quell. tions, he said, having been put to him in reference to the balance of those votes now lying to the credit of the cliff& rent services in the Exchequor—that, as a member of the committee upon public moneys, he entirely approved the suggestions which it had made. It would no doubt be desirable to carry into effect the recommendations of the Committee on Public Moneys as soon as possible, but there were great practical difficulties in the way of doing se. and more especially in reference to those votes which were taken not in accordance with the actual sum spent daring the year. In certain votes that were taken the sum voted became chargeable for the service for which it was voted. without any reference to time, so that where there was a surplus in one year the sum asked for in the next year did not represent the sum expended. It was not so with the votes for the army and navy, for the sums voted for those services were restricted as regarded the time for which they were voted to one year, and any balance which there might be was returned to the Exchequer, and before the recommendation of the committee could be carried into effect the same system which prevailed with regard to the navy and army estimates ought to be extended to the civil service estimates. Another difficulty was that the civil estimates were voted after the expiration of the financial year, and therefore it was necessary to provide for the period between the end of the financial year and the time when the votes were taken. The hon. gentleman thou proceeded to show by reference to the estimates, that in various votes the actual sum r equ i re d f or th e ser vice of the year was not the sum specified in the vote, and con• eluded his observations by expressing his hope that hie right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be able, during the present session, to propose some men' sure by wbicia some of the proposals of the committee would be carried into execution. (Hear, hear.) A conversation ensued, in which Mr. WILSON*, Sir g• WILLOUGHBY, and Mr. RIDLEY took part, on the eer gestions of the right hon. gentleman. On the vote, including a sum for the Law Clerks' Re' gister-office Edinburgh, Mr. G. A. HAMILTON said that he had given.notiaa of his intention to move that the vote be recommitted. Since the decision of the house last night importantpaPer g ware laid upon the table, and it was essential that theY should be in the hands of members before the vote vrei finally determined. He begged to move that.the vote be re-committed. Sir J. TRELAWNY moved that the house adjourn. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped that the hon. baronet would not interfere with the progress O votes in supply. Sir J. TRELAWNY did not wish to do so, but be understood that the salary of the Law Clerk Register wail open to immense objection, and he wished to stop it. After a few words from Mr. COWAN and Mr. Wlrr SON, the amendment was withdrawn, and the resolution proposed by Mr. Hamilton was agreed to. The remaining resolutions were also - agreed to. LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL. This bill was committed pro forma. OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITIES ESTATES, &e., BILL. --- This bill was read a third time and passed. HAINAULT FOREST (ALLOTMENT OF COMMONS) BILL. This bill, as amended, was considered, and ordered to be read a third time. GENERAL POST-OFFICE (EDINBURGH). Lord J MANNERS obtained leave to bring in a bill to empower the commissioners of her Majesty's works, &c., to acquire property for the erection of a new General Post' office in Edinburgh. The house adjourned at half-past one. [A.DvEnTisamENTd—Holloway's Ointment and Pill% a Certain and Effectual Remedy for Diseases of the Skin.—Ringworm, scurvy, leprosy, jaundice, enrol -111 * or King's evil, sore heads, and the most inveterate skin diseases to which the human race is subject canno t be treated with a mo re certain, safe, and speedy reined/ for their cure th an Holloway's Ointment and Tai t which act so pe cu li ar l y on the constitution, and effectually pur.fy the blood that those diseases i re ".• quickly eradicated from the system, and a lasting etr li , obtained. These sover e i g n r em e di es are equally . _,. r cacious in curing tumours, burns, s ca ld s , glanAW' swellings, ulcerous wounds, contracted, and stiff POI —Sold by all medicine vendors througho u t th e wwo ld at Profte3or Holloway's Establishment, 244, Stran d ' London. • BIRTHS. BERESFORD —oa the 2d inst., at 30,. Upper Moatsfi u ; street, Montagu-square, the Mrs. John Beresford, of _ _ _ son. HARRISON—On the 3d inst., at Worthing, the wife of SV. Harrison, Esq., of a son. SimPsoN— . On the 31st ult , at Woolwich, the wiftj Major W. H. R. Simpson, R.A., of twins—BO '- daughter. MARRIAGES. HoPKINS —GODDARD—On the 3d inst., at St. Barhe — A. South Kennington, George Hopkins, Esq., 25, Bedfordsquare, to Marie Louis a , y ounges t d aug ht er o f the 1 John Goddard, Esq., formerly 55th Regt. . , SPENCER—CIRCUIT—Oa the 2d inst., a t St. SOpllleur Skinner-street, Mr. R. Spencer, of Manchester. jo.eit Martha, the second da ug ht er of Mr. J. Cirznit, of TY Smithfield, London. DEATHS. FITZHERDERT—On the lat inst., at Tissington 041 ' Derbyshire, Sir Henry Fitzherbert, Bart., aged 7 6 ' FOSTER—On the let inst., at his residence, Eves T hil t ; " Worcestershire, Thomas Nelson Foster., Esq., 59. of FiorE—Killed, at Rowdennall, in rude, on the la II b April, Colonel the Hon. Adrian Hope, C.B 93 dj ii f lenders, youngest son of the l a t e G en eral John, x4'"'" Hopetoun, aged :;8. KING—On the 2d inst., at 7, Park-terrace, High/3'll' Richard King, Esq., Of Loyd's, aged 71. Ed' MosoN—On the 3d inst., at Putney-heath, Surreh "- ward Moion, Esq. O'BuiErr—On the 2d inst., at Brompton, John Terre O'Brien, Esq., aged 89. ROWLAND—On the 2d inst., at Woolwich, Col. Rom late Royal Artillery, aged 68. das SHEPPARD - On the let inst., at Folkington - plac e, Thomas Sheppard, Esq., aged le. 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