The Sun. — London, England, 1858-04-28 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EV EATING, AMITL 2S, 18;1S . tnent, to do it by ati ac t of direct legislation, ra th er th an to make use for t hat: osofphrase in an act which m, was never PubrePdi.ie a ected aga inet them. (Hear.) The same i n t e nded i opinion, a I.most in M the same r. Baron Mar tin was still s4ed by same occasiupon the snore s trongly ? a. A e"ren argumentem ad hominem had been ,pressed against him on a former occasion by Lord Derby .—that, upon repealing the Test and Corporation Acts, Vhe had retained the %gores upon the true faith of a r.bristian." It was of the utmost consequence at that .; -4 6 0 secur e the passing of t he bill, and to obviate the sition of a noble and learned lord, of whom it had that his learning was only exceeded by his t o ord Tenterden—he (Lord Lyndhurs t ) had bigotry — to . r etain the words. But a few years a f t er, co nsentedwben be fe „,:i that he could succeed in rep ealin g that 6 - 43 t in a bill for the purpose, which was clause, he brou through both houses. (Hear.) carried triumphs 'ItlY It was said that t.i,s was not a question of toleration or religious liberty, Cut of power and privilege, and that the Legislature 0 4 , 13 t do as it liked about granting that privilege. But this ;Fat: taking a very narrow view sell ious of religious toleration. Wha t he meant by gwer liberty was that every man, w ith respect to office, po and emolument, should, without regard to his feligious .opinions, be put upon a footing of perfect equality, less his opinions were such as to disqualify him from properly performing his duty. (Hear.) Was t h h i e e r h e r a el nv athe footing, in this enlightened age' on which fine 1 gious liberty cou ld be founded We did : n ot n owut if we or we imprison men for their religious opinions ; d enie d theta the fair emoluments of office, the fair 'objects of ambition, was not tha t a gredaetenrieianjtuhrey than t In so doi n g we even iroprisonuient principles of freedom ge ar .) established a rule that would Where 'fere we to stop ! justify persecution. (lien , and this It was asked if their op inione were harm l es s ; was admitted to be the case, t h hen why should ou we e argument abt unchri: - f e re with those o p inionslT tianisihig the legislature had been used—an old and fa vourite argument with the opponents of this measure. When that argument was first urged in that house, it et with an e ntire and complete refutation by a most rarev. prelate , then a member of the house, Archbishop whitely, 'lle said, "If you ask if this is a Christian country, the answer will be in the affirmative ; but yet .it does not consist exclusively of Christians ; it com. 'rises a certain number of Jews, but you still call it a Christian country. But the constitution of Parliament iQ to represent the country, and if it represent the coun try fairly, Jews is well as Christians, how can you con tend :or a moment that because there are some Jews in Parlianient the legislature is not as much a Christian le gislature as the country is a Christian country?" (Hear.) Had any a miwer ever been given to that argument ! Could any answer be given to it To go further, were not benches of justices Christian ; were not corporations Christian t Who denied that ? WeYe there not Jews in corporations, And did they un-Christian:qe them ! It was not possible to support such an extravagant argument as bad been founded on the alleged un-Chrisaanising of the legislature. Take the case of the colonies. Were not the inhabitants of Canada and our other colon:as British subjects I Had they not all the same rights as we had, and were they not all entitled to the same protection Were they not entitled to be pro tected as Christians I And yet Acts of Parliament bad passed their lordships' house, and constitutions had been framed for Canada, the Australian colonies, and New Zealand, without any provision against the admission of Jews to the legislative bodies of those colonies. (Heir, hear.) Did anybody get up and say that those legisla tures would not be Christian assemblies ! No one had ventured to make such an assertion. But, according to the argument of the Lord Chancellor, those bodies were unchristianised, for Jews were admitted into them equally with Christians. It might be asked, had that ever been acted on ! He knew that a most able mem ber of the Jewish religion was for several years a mem ber of the House of Representatives of Lower Canada. That man evinced great talent and great powers ; he was extremely popular ; and discharged his duty in a manner perfectly satisfactory. He was told that in one of the Australian colonies a Jew was a member of the legislature. What becam e then of the principle ! (Hear, h ear .) It seemed we did not care about the principle in the colonies ; they were not considered worthy of atten ion. (Hear, hear.) A distinction had been drawn between the duties of a legislature and of a bench of jus tices. What were the qualities they required in an ad ministrator of justice ! That be should be a man of probity, a man of information, a man of impartiality, a man of decision. What qualities did they require in a member of the legislature I Precisely the same. (Hear, hear.) Those qualities that rendered a man fit to dis charge well the duties of an administrator of justice were the very qualities which it was desirable he should possess as a member of the legislature. (Hear, hear.) Look at Prussia. In that country th e y said to the Jews—'' You may be members of the legislature ; there is no harm in that ; but you must not be administrators of the law." (Hear.) We said precisely the reverse. Such was the inconsistency of intolerance. (Hear.) In almost every continental nation members of the Jewish religion were admitted to their respective legislatures almost without ex , eption. This was the case even in Catho lic countries, in France and Belgium. The admission of Jews to those legislatures bad not been productive of in convenience or the slightest disadvantage ; and we were called upon by every principle to extend the same privi lege to them here. The first lesson of Christianity was to do to others as we wished them to do to us ; this principle was at the basis of all Christian teaching. What bad we done recently in Turkey I He could conceive Lord Stratford de Redcliffa appealing to the Sultan and saying —" How cruelly you act towards Christians ; you don't admit them to office. They are equally entitled with your other subjects to hold office of every description." And if that noble lord had been able to say that we, who were an enlightened nation, pursued that course in Eog land, most likely the Sultan, after due consideration, would have made the concession, and have put the Chris tians in Turkey on the same footing in respect of offices as his other sulljscts. (Hear.) But it was not fair to call upon other countries to put in practice those principles which we ourselves relived to act upon ; it was neither just nor honourable. (Hear) We imposed upon the Jews the liability of filling such offices as those of sheriff and alderman, in which they must serve under a penalty. It was said that their Sabbath being on Saturday, and their various holidays incapacitated them from perform ing their duties as Christians ; but there was nothing in this argument. Then it was asked what part would they take on questions affecting religion 1 That suggestion came rather too late. The objection was made some SO years ago, with great force and effect, on the Catholic question. It was said that the Catholics considered us as neretics, and would art upon that belief in religious questions. But that was over-ruled • and there was no pretence for saying that Catholics bad interfered with the Church of England. The Jews were even allowed to present to benefices ; and in no case had any comp laint been made of the way in which they had exercised their rights. It had actually been stated in the other house that the Jews were the subjects of the devil. (Laughter.) The attempt to get up a religious cry against the Jews was worthy of the dark ages ; and he regretted that it h a d proceeded from a gen tleman of intelligence and reli gious feeling. It had also been said that Jews were mem bers of the inquisition, and that they were the original Jesuits. What was the authority for this ? Nothing more than a popular novel, by a member of the present Go vernment—Coningsby. (Laughter.) Then it was said they were a separate nation, a race of sojourners, look ing forward to removal at no distant period. Were they not as enterprising, loyal, and industrious, as other classes I On all occasions when they were freed from op pression they evinced great talent. A remarkable in stance of this was found in the Jews of Germany ; the moment their liberties were restored many eminent men arose amongst them, distinguished in literature and sci ence. (The noble and l earne d l or d enumerated several , but the names did not reach the gallery.) He trusted that this was the ilast time the bill would be discussed, and the last time it would be necessary for him to urge the claims of the Jews upon thei r lord ships. A ( Hear.) T After a few words from the Earl of DES Tbe Duke of MARLBOROUGH said th e noble ' and learned lord had admitted that if the question wastobe a rgued on religious grounds, the objections to the admis sion of the Jews were unanswerable. He admitted they were good citizens and among the most peaceable of her Majesty's subjects. The highest title of the Queen wa that of defender of the faith. The highest State cere mony, the coronation of the sovereign, was a religious act; and in that ceremony her Majesty declared that she would defend the Ctristian religion to the utmost of her power. Their lordships had been reminded, too, that their proceedings were always inaugurated by solemnly in vokirg a blessing upon their deliberations in the name of the Divine Founder of our Faith. If the measure be fore the house passed into law, a most formidable step would have been taken towards undermining the Chris tian character of the constitution. (Hear.) There was only too much reason to think that if any number of Jews ever became members of either house, minar it would be foun ord n ecessary either to om it the preliy prayers, to omit from those prayers the name of Christ. At all events, he had heard of a case in which a Jew had in sisted upon the omission of the phrase " Christian"sym pathy from the prospectus of a public subscription, and hail succeeded in having the document altered to suit his views. (Hear.) But he (the noble duke) ha I another ob jection to the bill. He wished to know why Jews should be treeted more favourably than Roman Catholics ? . (Hear.) By the present Lew a Roman Catholic could not , nominate to any ecclesiastical appointment. Ho could not hold any office in the universities. Ile could not pre sent to any benefice. He could not advise the Crown upon any ecclesiastical appointment ; and he could not hold certain offices under the Crown. But the only one I of these restrictions proposed to be enforced against the I Jew was that he should not hold certain offices ; but e might be the Prime Minister or Privy Councill r, in the former of which capacities he would have to advise her Maj t est t y av al i. t h o ed th c e h a u ppo h intment of the chief pastors of the noble and learned Irci ((Tear.) The other evening the with inimitaue P., (Lard Lyndhurst) had ridiculed Chief t er a bill which had been brought in by the Lord would not be a Jus t ice,lawful 'nettin g because the convocation purpose within the meanin g fog atiedbs,eilimlflhibeduwtefiehraaa what wo 7 p ; up f l u a the noble and learned lord ha o t v o e th a s a a u enactme n t by which a pent of the present measure, might become a Jew, as a member of the Privy ' il Lhe noble dune j u dge of Christian doctrine? (Cheer n s " c included by adjuring their lordehipe:t t w y ''l ' respect to the principle of civil and religious lib erty , cress noty to sanction the abuse of the phrase, by which it often made to mean the s e p aration of Uh urch and Sta t e . 'o (Loud cheers.) Lord STRATFORD DE RE DCLIFFE wished, a lt er the reference which had been made to the country in which he had passed so large a portion of his life, to house. offer a few observati ons u p on the question before the The noble and learned lord (Lord Lyndhurst) with that sagacity and Live of justice which distinguished him in so remarkable a manner, had brought to his recollec lion that which was perfectly correct, namely that in . Turkey, where the great national reform that was now going on had occupied so much attention in this country, and indeed throughout the whole of Europe for so many years—there was nothing more striking than to find that the just effects of representations which he bad had the honour to make on behalf of this country, had often been checked by our policy upon the question now before the house—a question with regard to which, not withstanding the progress we h ad made of late years, we were still in the rear of our neighbours. (Cheers.) There was no doubt that the course pursued by this country with regard to the admission of Jews into the Legisla• tore had been the subject of remark in Turkey on occa sions when he had had to press the immense importance of setting aside those religious differences whieh had so much retarded the progress of improvement in that coun try; and nothing would have afforded him greater plea sure than to have been able to show in what respects ieh we in this country bad set aside ancient prejudices, wh we had unfortunately so long cherished. (Cheers.) With respect to that question, so far as it related to this coun try, it would be wholly unnecessary for him again to go over the ground which had been gone over on both sides with such eminent ability by the two noble and learned lords. He considered himself very fortunate at having been present at a debate which would be long remem. bered in the annals of this country, The contest between I the two noble lords reminded him of one be bad read of ia a rt or days between two illustrious professors of an art which this country had been somewhat distin guished— a dentest between one who was retiring, but who had been a chig ornament of the pugilistic art—and one who was coming into it with all the vivacity of youth. (Laughter.) He should, however, be sorry in. deed to say of the noble and learned lord who had so rivetted the attention of their lordships, and who had given a knock-down blow, as he was willing to believe, to prejudices which had so long existed, •'—linmani pondere ceestus Projecit." (Cheers.) He hoped the noble lord would long be able ii display those extraordinary talents which it had given him sing lar pleasure after so long an absence to witness. (Cheers.) The grounds upon which he should give the vote he had resolved upon were very simple. He con sidered that every Englishman was entitled to all the rights which our institutions afforded, unless there was something in his religion, on account of which the in terests of the state made it necessary to exercise the power it undoubtedly possessed of making him an excep tion, (Hear, hear.) He was, however, at a loss to understand what there was in the position of the Jew to make him such an exception. (Cheers.) Toe dis tinction which the noble and learned lord had drawn between the Jewish body and certain distinguished members of that body, did not seem to him (Lord Stratford) to rest upon any jest ground. The question was not one of the rights derived from accomplishments or from qualities which might belong to a superior edu cation, but it was a question of rights which belonged to the poorest individual. He considered that there was nothing in the position of the Jew which could justly disqualify him from taking a part in the public ser vice or in the legislation of the country ; and he thought that the principle for which he was of the con tending applied as much to one p ortion munity as to another. (Hear.) He (the noble lord) could not sit down without again referring for a moment to the subject with which he conarnenced, and that was a satis faction which he could hardly find terms tohas express been , that in a country where despotisen so long established, an d where so much de pended upon the will of the ruler, the Sultan, with whom he had been so long i communication sh, own had during the 1 $ o r li years o n f his reign, a liberality of opinion, and a generosity of disposition, which entitled him to the confidence of this country. But he would remind their lordships that so long as the results of negotiation remained on paper only, important as they might be to the interests not only of Turkey, but of humanity itself, they would want their proper con summation. A great deal must depend upon the advice of the Ministers who were on the spot ; but a great deal mast likewise depend upon the attention which Europe at large continued to apply to the subject, and more especially upon the attention which might be given to it by those who presided over the councils of her Majesty. (Hear, hear.) The Duke of RUTL AND bad always opposed the ad mission of the Jews into Parliament; and he could not, as some persons seemed to do, underrate the importance of allowing even a few of that body to obtain seats in either house. Lord STANLEY of ALDIRLY said he was unwill ing the debate should close without a few words from that side of the house. What now remained to com plete the equal rights and equal liberties of all the citizens of this great country was the admission of the Jew to representative, as well as to judicial and other offices. There certainly was danger of a collision with the other house of Parliament, and even those great statesmen the Duke of Wellington and Sir R. Peel did not object to be influenced by such considerations in conceding Catholic emancipation. The county of Clare i then returned Mr. Daniel O'Connell , a s the citizens of London now returned Baron Rothschild.' There was something of danger in continuing their present curse. He called upon their lordships to concede the question while they could do it with grace, and not postpone' it any longer. Lord DUNGANNON said if their lordships were to be induced by any fear of the consequences of a collision with the other house to pass this bill, then the House of Lords would soon become to be considered as a mere register-office for the decisions of the House of Com mons, Earl GRANVILLE said it was desirable not to have a collision between the two Houses of Parliament on a question of this kind. Opposition very frequently was productive of benefit. It oLen caused delay in the early agitation of a question, and by the delay it occasioned gave their lordships and the country an opportunity of reconsidering and reflecting on the question with greater ' calmness than they could do under periods of excitement. He thought it, however, advantageous after lengthened periods of discussion on que-tions in the other house, con firmed by growing maj lities in more than one Hou-e of Commons, that their lordship should give way to expe diency, and sacrifice their convictions, as was done by the late Duke of Wellington and Sir Robert Peel, in re ferenca to Catholic emancipation. He bad heard no prac tical objection to the admission of Jews to Parliament, and he saw no reason why the . r admission to Parlia ment should un Christianise the legislature any more than the admission to civil offices and the rights of citizenship had un-Christianised the country. He called upon the noble earl (Earl Derby) to point out clearly the course which her Majesty's Goya, nment intended to pursue in reference to this question. (Cries of " Divide, divide.") The Marquis of LONDONDERRY complsiued that their lordships had not been favoured with the opinions of the members of the episcopal bench on the question. It was a disgrace to the country to exclude the Jew by an act while they were doubtful about its meaning. The Bishop of CASEEL had as much affection for the Je w as any man, but he could never consent to bring into Parliament a man whose forefathers crucified our Re deemer, and who themselves vilified Him every day of their lives. He doubted if a good Jew would come into this house—(laughter)---and those who were desirous of enteringpmoepaunl meaning language,a r Parliament ae n ofd owere be h ri e ef c onsidered ui character. designated bwereby the t hose whom, u in "j (Loud o lau g hter.) " r.) w, Their lordships then divided. The numbers 'were---- Contents BO Non-Contents ll9 Majority against the clause . —39 The clause was then struck on+. Clause 8 was also expunged. The other clauses were agreed to. The bill was then reported on amendments, and their l rd lordships aejourned at 20 minutes to 10 o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS.--(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The London Dock Company Bill was read a third time and passed. bills were further considered and ordered to T be he re f a i d " a w t ing third time : —Maidstone Gas, Tr ent Navi gation, and Vauxhall Bridge Road. SOUTH KENSINGTON MfyrSEnyttiiiirn,,B4f the Lord H. LE x number of visitors to the South Kensin g ton Museum c o from its opening to the present time, distinguishing those days which are free, and those which are students' days ; also the numbers attending the Museum in the morning and the evening; and, of the numbers who visited the Museum at Marlborough-House during the years 1854, 1855, and 1856.—Agreed to. EAST INDIA. (PATRONAGE, &c.) Mr. J. B, SMITH moved for returns, separate and in detail, of the patronage vested in the Crown, the Board of Control, and the Directors of the East India Company, both as regards the Home Government and the Government of India in India. And, of the patronage vested in the Governor-General of India, of the Governors of Madras and Bombay and no-th-west provinces, of the Commasder-in-Chiet, and the commanders of the farces of Madras -and Bombay, pith the salaries and allowances attached to eve!) , situation, office, and empl o y men t, c o venanted, diatin guiihing the number of Europeans and natives employed , in the uncovenanted service ; together with the retiring allowances and pensions in every department of the State cunnected with the Government of India, in rupees rec koned at two shillings each, under the following clas sifications, via.:—ecclesiastical establishment, civil ser vices, military servicas, marine department, educa tional establishments, and law appointments connected with the Queen's courts. TETE MILITIA. Lord BURGHLEY asked the Secretary fir War, bother the Gove rnment would make some allowance to the captains of the 16 disembodied regiment; Militia, to compensat e them for the losses the y must‘ sustain by their not being able to recover the debts from their companies, in consequence of their regiments being suddenly dis.embo lied ? General PEEL said be intended to f )flow the prece dent of former years in this instance. It was not the custom t.) make such compensation. (Hear, hear.) VALUATIONS (IRELAND). Mr. GROGAN gave notice that on this day fortnight he shouli move for an address relative to the people cf Irel&nd beirg relieved from one-half of the expenses of the annual valuation of that country. (Hear.) CORRUPTION PRACTICES PREVENTION _ _ _ ACT. Mr. CROSS asked the Secretary for the Horne De partment whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Ministers to take any steps towards extending the pro visions o f th e C orrupt P rac ti ces Prevention dto mu nicipal flectionel Mr. WALPOLE said the Corrupt Practices Preven tion Act was under his consideration for amendment. Els should shortly introduce it, and then move that it be referred to a select committee, and afterwards discuss it in a committee of the whole house. He thought they had better perfect the act with reference to parliamentary elections before they extended its provisions to municipal elections. He saw no reason why it should not then be extended to municipal elections. THE ENFIELD RIFLE. General CODRINGTON asked the Secretary for War, whether it was true that some of her Majesty's Regi ments of Infantry in the East Indies were still armed with the old smooth-bore musket ; and, if so, what had caused the delay in changing them for the Enfield Rifle, which had long been issued to the rest of the army, both I at home and abroad I General PEEL said all the regiments sent from this country to India in 1857 were supplied with the Enfield rifle, but those previously sent out were furnished with the smooth-bore musket. Last year, however, the East India Company sent out 35,000 Enfield rifles to India ; and up to the I.9th of this month 82,000 had been sent there. Their distribution rested with the Indian Government, Lord Panmure's attention was on a former occasion directed to the subject ; and from what was then done he (General Peel) bad reason to hope that now every one of the army in India had been supplied with the Enfield rifles. (Hear, hear.) General CODRINGTON asked if he was to under stand from the gallant general's answer that the troops in India still had the smooth-bore muskets _ _ _ General PEEL said, previous to 1857 they had them, but he believed sufficient rifles bad been seat out to sup ply every man with one. (Hear, hear.) DELAYED RETURNS. Sir C. NA.PIER, asked when the returns of the money saved in wages by paying off eight line-of-battle ships in the spring of 1857 ; of the expense of refitting the ships Duke of Wellington, Exmouth, &c.; and of the number of Continuance Service men in the fleet on the let day of January, 1857, would be laid on the table Mr. CORRY said the returns asked for involved muoh labour. No unnecessary delay had taken place, and he expected they would be ready in a few days. THE NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. Viscount INGESTRE asked the Chief Commissioner of Works whether his attention had been called to a memorandum left in his office by the late Chief Commis sioner of Works with reference to the unsatisfactory estimate sent in by Sir Charles Barry for the comple tion of the works at the Palace of Westminster, and whether any and what determination bad been come to on the subject Lord J. MANNERS said his attention was naturally called to the memorandum in question on his taking office, and he had lost no time in communicating with Mr, E. Barry, who was acting for his father, who was suffering from illness. Details and estimates had been , sent in for the entire completion of the palace. They had been submitted to the Trea-ury, and in a few days he expected they would be in the hands of hon.' members. (Hear, hear.) DENMARK. Mr. WISE asked the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether he would lay upon toe table a copy of the report made in May, 1857, by Consul General Ward, of L4psic, to the Briti-h Government, on the differences which had arisen between the Duchies and the Kingdom of Denmark : as well as a copy of any observations or reply communicated by the Danish Ministry to her Majesty's Government in reference to the said report Mr. S. FITZGERALD, after referring to the great importance cf these differences, said that as her Majesty's Government might be called on to take a peculiar line of conduct in reference to them, it was objectionable to publish at the present time to the whole world a report of a confidential nature. The reply to the report, or despatch alluded to by the Danish Government, was communicated confidentially, and nothing more, to Coh ; sul-General Ward. STADE DUES. Mr. HUTT inquired when the notice for the commit tee on the Stade Dues would be placed on the paper? Mr. HENLEY having explained the cause of the de lay, said he hoped to be able to do so tonight. Mr. HUTT then gave notice that he should to-morrow move the appointment of a select committee on the Stade Dues. INCREASED ASSIZES. Mr. M'MA RON moved for a select committee to in quire into the expediency of further improving the administration of justice, by increasing the number of assizes for oivil business in the several counties of Eag land and Walv. The hon. and learned member altered his mot ion in accordance with Air. Collins' amendment, to include the increasing of assize towns ; and forcriminal as well as civil business. He suggested there should be three assizes a-year instead of two, as at present, and that the large csunties should be divided. No addi tional judges woul I be required, and the division of counties would be a great saving of expense and trouble both to suitors and jurors. Mr. HADFIELD seconded the motion. Mr. COLLINS supported the motion. Mr. WA LPOLE said that all the information which could be required was already hefora the house. A still more extensive inquiry hail been entered into by a royal commission consisting of many of the most eminent judges and others, who were better able to form an opi nion than a committee of the house could be. All addi tion to the present number of assizs would necessitate a large increase in the judicial staff, and was especially unnecessary at a time when the means cf communica tion were so much improved, and alter the establishment of the county courts. It should be left to the discretion of the Executive to examine the recommendations of the commissioners, and to provide a remedy for existing defects. Mr. WAD/FIELD urged that justice ought to be ' brought home to every roan's door, and that assizes should be held in every great town. Lord GODERIC a expressed a similar opinion. Sir G. GREY could not see any advantage in going again over the same ground which the commissioners had alrealy travelled. The question should be left to the respon-ible advisers of the Crown, who would no doubt attend to the claims which might be urged by any par ticular town. Col. SMYTHE defended th 3 actual distribution of the assizi.p. Mr. BRIGHT adduced the difficulty which poor men charge 3 with crime had in bringing their witnes-es from a distance as a reason for extending the number of assize town. Witnesses against him were brought up at the public expense. They had already e stablished a greater number of assiz. towns in Liverpool, and he did not see why the same principle should not be extended to other countie.. Still, be did not think further inquiry neces sary—they had already sufficient information. After some observations from Mr. CHAIITAIWORTH, who asserted that Wakefield should be made an assize town, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL repeated that the house already possessed all the information requisite. The just &aims ER supported of the great towns pr would be attended to. Mr. BOWYorted tbe p position for a third assize. After some further discussion, and a brief repiy from Mr. M‘MAHotr, The motion was negatived. MASTERS AND WORKMEN. Mr. MACKINNON rose to call the attention of the house to the report of the select committee of 1856 ap pointed to inquire into the eaopediency eetablishing equitable tribunals for the amicable adjustmen t o move of dif ferences between masters and operatives, and for leave to bring in a bill to enable masters and work men to form councils of conciliation and arbitration. Mr. INGHAM seconded the motion. Mr. WA.LPOLE reserved his opinion as to the details of the bill, but would not oppose its introduction. Leave was then given to introduce the bill. THE COUNTY FRANCHISE. Mr. LOCKE KING moved for leave to introduce a bill to extend the franchise in counties in England and Wales, and to improve the representation of the people. When he last brought the question before the house, it had been rejected by the small majority of 13 votes ; and, were it not for the chivalrous assistance rendered on that occasion to the noble viscount the member for Tiverton, then at the head of the Government, by the honourable gentleman opposite, the bill would have been carried by a considerable majority, for the noble lord was only able to muster, including, himself, 31 sup porters of the Government. Since that time, the noble lord haxieg sustained a defeat, made his appeal to the country on a question affecting the honour of the British fl-ig. He selected as his rallying cry not the re form of the franchise, but a topic calculated to arouse the feeling of the British lion—namely, an alleged insult to the British flag. Bit the country soon turned its atten tion from the China question and Mr. Commissioner Yeh to the subject of Parliamentary reform, and the measure that he had submitted to Parliament found general sup port with the people. He did not bring the qeestien forward last y.ar because the noble lord had promised to introduce an extensive measure of P a rliamentary reform, which would involve an enlargement of the franchise. He hail had some experience of ministerial promises and he bad come to the con elusion that little faith was to be placed in them, however well meant. He did not bring this question forward in any spirit of factious hostility to the Government. The objections to the measure had resolved themselves into a very small compass. One ob jection was, that a measure of reform was forthcoming , but he lel.: sure from past experience, that Ministers cothould n ot undertake one for a forthcomin k see-ion. Another objection raise I was, that this was not the time for a change, but that was too common to need to be met. Th e n there was the o b j ection of en urged against such proposals, that this WAS a piecemeal measure of reform ; but in the present feeling and temps of the house the only way in whic this question could be dealt with was by introducing a small, honest, just measure of this kind, which he priferr d to large ones, possibly having a great deal of dishonesty in them. He would not go into details on the bill, with which the house was familiar, as he bad en ti re d fully into the statistics in times past. No one had hitherto dared to assail ihe class which he now wa r s eu. a eh su b g :u e n st d i a o r n y,paying proposed should be enfranchised. It was most anomalous that an individual who lived in a town and occupied a 1,0/. house should havethe franchise, while another inha bitingbo a house nearly adj but beyond the larger taxes, shoull remain without a vote. here gen tleman the member for Carlisle (S r J. Graham) that some means ought emanating perhaps s the higher right .ho rent, and ..?_ . be taken to prevent faggot a k s in d g evia y ted ec f7 "rY voting, and he (Virg L. to adopt a Si. ratine Previous thought it might be well r , ev.ous to the last election, the house woul I remember,' meet had intended to allowwasoreported a t s o ' a al t l t e e g m ed pt it. The motion, be bill that et it io w n o o u f li any any nottnrotioldiobaunet the G r go r . d ‘ ovuueernendd amendments. p Th ith t ti i n e t r e , n ta t intention understanding ma 'king the bill would not permit the such wasting amendments,the time f tine e d it housew however, was made t bring in the bill; the excuse urg ed for the Go vernment te:t supporting the measure was a pure fie; ion, for the bill itself bad not been at that time drafted, Ile left it to her Majesty's late advisers, if they wished to explain the matter. He hoped her Ml jesty's present Ministers would not fall into the same fault. The hon. gentleman concluded by moving for leave to bring in his bill. Mr. BY NG seconded the motion, because he was anxi ous that a sound and comprehensive measure of reform should be passed; because it would enfranchise many towns and unrepresented districts ; and because he be lieved, by so doing, they would enlarge the area of re presentation by the enfranchisement of a large class of the community, honest and intelligent, who were en titled to the privilege of vot ng. (Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I have no objection to urge against the purpose of the bill which the hon. gentleman proposes to introduce. I have no ob jectien to extend the franchise which is enjoyed at pre sent by counties, and I think an extension of the fran chise may improve its exercise. I have no prejudice what ever to the general purpose of the motion of the hon. gen tleman to extend the franchise in c unties in England and Wales, and to improve the representation of the people in respect of such franchise; but there are several considerations which induce me to think that the intro ductien of such a measure may rather prove a source of embarrassment to those who seriously intend and wish to improve the franchise. We have heard from the hon. gentleman his description of his own bill which he seeks to bring in. He saysit is a measure " small, honest, and just," the tendency of which be to remove great ano malies. How stands the question of the general repre sentation at the present moment in England I speak from memory, but in my general results I am not wrong. Well, we have a certain number of members returned to Parliament from those counties with whose franchise the hon. gentleman proposes to deal. We have 150 or 160 county members for England and Wales, and they are returned to Parliament by something more than half a million of electors. We have, on the other hand, 330 bo rough memb-rs, who are returned to Parliament by little snore than 400,000 electors. Those who are Parliamen tary reformers and approach this great question in an impartial spirit will be struck with the impression that the balance between the city and county representation is cot just, and it seems strange that half a million of electors should only return 150 or 160 members, while 400,000 electors should return 330 members. (Hear.) One might almost be disposed to say that this is one am eng the anemones to which the hon. gentleman has referred. But what is the remedy which the hon. gentle man offers to us, because he despairs that a great and comprehensive measure on the subject may be submit ted, and because he says he can only take a measure which is honest and just ? It appears to me that the course pursued by the hon. gentleman will not remove the anomalies in the representative system which he complains of, and, to use the language of the hon. gen tleman himself, improve the franchise of this country. The house should consider well this question. If we are to agree to the motion on the grounds upon which the hon. member has placed it we shall be sanctioning the supposition that the hope of a general improvement of the franchise is impossible, aad that the measure which we are asked to sanction is just, small, and honest. While we have a small number of members returned by large constituencies, and a large number of members returned by small constituencies, I find in the returns moved for by the hon. member himself the inevitable inference that if you make up your minds to deal with what the hen. gentleman calls the extension of the franchise in this country, you cannot deal wi h it partially, and whatever may be the objections urged against comprehensive mea sures, I am fully p ersua d e d that w h e n dealing with the representation of a great people it is quite impossible by small, honest, and just measures to effect anything but that which is large in justice and vast in policy. Is the house prepared for the crate of things which the hon. gentleman contemplates ? At this moment, in the coun ties to which the hon. gentleman's motion alone refers, every member of Parliament represents 3,300 electors ; at this moment in the boroughs every member repre sents 1,280 electors. Unquestionably there are boroughs where the preponderating influence is purely agricultural and also counties where the great weight of the influence is purely manufacturing, but that has nothing to do with the question. Here we have to consider simply why 500,000 electors should at the present moment return 160 members to Parliament, and why 400,000 electors should return 330 members ; and a measure of Parlia mentary reform which we are told is " small, honest, and just," is brought forward, which is to aggravate all these circumstances, and increase the dispaoportion at present existing. I ask, is the house prepared to Banc• tiou such a proceeding? (Hear.) If there is, as I believe there is, a sincere desire on the part of the house to promote a just and fair settlement of this long-mooted and contested question, I cannot conceive how you can take a more retrogade course than by adopting the mo tion of the hon. member. lam not opposed to an ex tension of the franchise in counties. I believe that a large number of persons now resident in counties might be admitted to the exercise of the franchise with great advantage to the country.—(Hear, hear,) —but it is impossible to resist the conviction, with the informa tion we have already upon this subject, that if you deal with the county franchise you must also deal with the franchise of the towns. (Cheers.) I cannot appeal to the hon. member, as the noble lord at the head of the late Government might have done, because I have no politi cal claim upon the hon. member, but I am bound, on the part of the present Government to state, in vindication of our position, and of the cause of truth, that the fair representation 'of the people in the House of Commons is a question which will undergo our deep and sincere consideration—(cheers)—but, I cannot for a moment hula out to the hon. gentleman the hope that i t will be at any time my duty to submit to the house a scheme \like that which he has brought before it this evening. If adopted, it would only be a partial measure, and one which must lead to great jealousy and public inconve idence. I cannot doubt teat it would lead also to pro tracted ag tation in the country. (Elear.) It appears to the Government that the que tion of a fair and ade quate representation of the people in Parliament is ene which must be considered as a whole. ((leer, hear.) It is ono which must be approached i n a ca l m s pi r it, i n a temperate spirit, in a mood of mind very different from that iu days lung past accompanied the agi tationtßhuist h st o. i u ll , l e t e n h . o :n w i n a o s pos,es,es, cannot doubt d ß o e u f b o t rea tha ß t i , ll wi c t a h r t r h ie e d kn i o n tyl t e h d a g t e h w o h u i s c e h . for and with the des re which exists ll parts of the country and among all classes of the people, we shall come to a safe and practical solu tion of the difficulties by which the question is sur rounded. But, sir, I cannot think that we are dealing worthily with this great subject if we admit a bill like this, which its p r oposer has himself designated as a small, honest, and just measure, and almost as a final measure. Mr. L. KING—No, no. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—WeII, then, at all events, as a substitute for a final measure— (murmursgeibi:egintnrittgsl that ca m aaLt a r r n i e s d a b h e e c a d u e s s ep,a hieire despaired a o i f d, a fr o m the opposition benches)--did not the hon. n t y h o e r t h e e w r a m s e a a s g u e r n e e t h r aaln tfeelhis e n e o s a t o l t e w r nhai which v the e w h o o u n l . d g take entl e m pl a a n c e re f e l r f s t a h r e e n c iort well founded—if t here be a prospect of dealing with the question fait ly and honestly—then, I way, that the hon. member is not justified in pressing his bill at this time. I will not appeal to hint on the ground of any political claim that I may have upon his attention, to withdraw his bill ; but I atn bound to say, representing the Go vernment, and on my own part, that I cannot sanction the bringing forward of a measure which, if carried, would inflict a great injustice, and be a source of groat embarrassment for future legislation. (Oh, oh, and Miinsterial cheers.) On the:grounds, therefore, which I base stated to the house, I cannot assent to the intro duction of the bill, and feel it to be my duty to meet the motion of the hon. member by moving the previous question. (Hear, hear, oh, oh, and laughter.) Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, the right hon. gentleman has based his opposition to the bill of my bon, friend the member for Surrey, upon two grounds. He did not deny that the franchise in the counties might be usefully.x tended. He did not deny that those persons with 101. occupations were a respectable class and worthy to en j y the franchise. But the right hon. gentleman goes off in the first place on a distinction which he is very fond of drawing, but a distinction which I always thought entirely devoid of foundation, namely, that the counties have a certain number of members and a certain number of electors, and that the boroughs have also a certain number of members and of electors. In the first place, I believe that the right hon. gentleman is entirely mistaken in thinking that a straight line can be drawn between the C tunties and the boroughs. I believe that some of the counties—the metropolitan county and the county of Lancashire—are so inhabited by nelsons en gaged in trade and carrying on business in Wens, that to all iutents and purposes they constitute a town consti tuency. le else than i t t h i a h n e e a t g h u hand ltura l l believe that there are many borouehe in a gr i cu l tura l counties which represent h (Hear, bear.) Therefore I coeteed that there is no sound or substantial ground for the diAincteen which the ri g ht hon. gentle man attempts to draw. I remember Mr. Canning saying that the line which separated parties was not a straight line, but a serpentine line ; so I say that the line which sop crates the constituencies of boroughs and counties is not a straight line, but a serpentine one. I believe it a happy circumstance for the country that it is so. In other countries there era sharp lines drawn, but I think the mixture of interests and classes in this country is a great advantage ((fear. ) If the argument s and theory of the ri g h t hon. gestleman were correct, they would prove that, by the R:rforrn Act, a great advantage was given to the counties ; because, previous to the passing of that act, the number of county members for England were 80, and the number for Wa'es 12, whereas we in creased the whole number to 150. But we did not do that with a view to the exclusive advantage of the agri• cultural interest. So tar from that, our main obj -ct was to increase ;he influence of the great towns, such as Manchester, Binningh on, and Leeds, certainly riot to give them any preponderating influence, but to bring the trading and tuanufactnring interests more nearly on an coality with tie agricultura' interest. (Hear.) It the theory of the tight hon. gentleman were right, our pro "e'ling in that ease would have led to a very different conclusion. With respect to the number of elect ne, the right h°D • gentleman says Gat there are 500,000 electors in count es aid only 150 members. Well, but if you add to the numbx of the electov, you would not diminish, but add to tee weight and influence of the county toe o bers. (Hear) But tben the right hon. gentleman goes on to another argument, which, if I had heard it front my noble friend the member for Tiverton, I might per haps have been eisposed to listen to. The right hon, gen tleman tells ns that we ought to take the question as a whele. Well, I cannot find fault with that argument, for I used it myself seven years ago, when I introduced a reform bill. But we have bad some experi , nee dur ing the years that have elapsed since then. I have in tot e b a e n d dea m l o t d w er i a th te . and . as any hon. gentleman l find, that some diffi h'r:;nd.egc,enilltio„Crariearn in will finyds,elf, but I found, as the right who may introduce such bills v suite init i w n ' the a hick fro from matterthe vie: nience from the heat and lence which accompanied (Hear.) Though there might have been some inconve- T y reposed tenl P the agitation for the bill of 1831, yet it had this advan tage that the great majority of the people being in favour 1 of the measure, as they were determined to have " the whole bill, and nothing but the bill"—it gave an im petus to the majority in this house, and enabled us to carry the measure in the other House of Parliament, On the other hand, there were some practical diiadvan- Cages from the extremely temperate, calm, and dispas sionate consideration which the right hon. gentleman gave to it. In such times, when large measures were introduced for improving our representation, then the private interests in that house arose in their strength. Each section, or 'class, or intere.t found, or supposed themselves, injured by the proposed alterations they united to oppose ; all these sections clubbed their grie vances and their objections, and the result of their oppo sition was either to throw the measure out altogether or to throw such obstructions in the way that it practically came to the same thing. Sir, the last Dill I withdrew proposed great and, as I believe, beneficial changes, brit because it embodied a provision for the representation of minorities, which was exceedingly obnoxious to the hon. member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) who called it a trick, I experienced ouch an opposition that I was com pelled to withdraw the bill. I was erremely surprised at the objections raised to that particular part of the mea sure, and more so that the other portions, to which no objection was made, should not have been retained. But if these things were true, and if such are the difficulties attendant npon the introduction of a large measure, of which my hon, friend does not despair, but has great doubts —(alaugh)—is it not better to take the proposition of my hon. friend in itself, which I believe will, in practice, be found to be one which no person can object to, and which meets the approbation of a very large number of persons of respectability, whose soundness of judgment few will be ready to dispute, and thereby extend the basis of our representation and strengthen our constitution. (Cheers.) By so doing we shall increase the confidence of the country, which is one of the great objects of a reform bill, (Hear, hear.) But then the right hon. gentleman speaks with a very natural doubt and hesitation with re gard to any particular measure of reform which he himself intends to introduce. Why, Sir, I have a very strong im . pression as to what was declared by the present Prime Minister on taking office. He said, speaking in the bold and manly way in which he is accustomed to express his views, that the question of reform had been kept t• e. long dangling before Parliament, but beyond that he did not go. He took care to say that, if be came forward next session and said that he bad no scheme to improve the existing state of the representation, he could not be taunted with having broken any promises or violated any pledges. (Hear.) If that is the case, and seeing that it is so difficult for a Minister with a large majority in this house, and without any great ardour in the country, to carry a reform bill, and add to that a Minister whose majority is doubtful, and whose mind is so extremely apathetic and lukewarm on the subject as that of the present Prime Minister, I must say that my doubts very much exceed my hopes. (Cheers.) I therefore think the safe course for the house will be at once to accept this bill. (Hear, hear.) I think the one bird in the hand of my hon. friend the member for Surrey is preferable to the bird in the bush of the right hon. gentleman —(laughter) —and therefore I shall give my cordial assent to the in troduction of this bill. (Cheers.) Mr. LABOUCHERE should not have spoken hut for the charge of insincerity against the Earl of Granville thrown out by the hon. member for Surrey. Thestatement of Earl Granville was that the members of the late Go vernment did not intend to support the bill and move amendments in committee, and it was alleged that this could not be so, as the bill had not been brought in. He repeated that it was true that they had come down to the house with the intention of supporting the bill and moving amendments in committee, but they found that they could not move those amendments, and then they altered their course. The hon. member had intro duced a bill in the previous session, and the motion being in the same terms they had assumed the bill would be to the same effect. They were not now in precisely the saxee position—(a laugh)—but he thought they were justified in taking the course they had intended in the former case—(cheers and counter cheere)—and he for one should vote for the introduction of the bill. (Cheers and counter cheers ) He thought as to the question of a partial or general measure, he did not think either ab solutely wrong or absolutely right. If he had confidence in the Government, he would think it better that the matter should be left in their hands ; but he must say, with the noble lord the member for London, that he had no great confidence that a measure would be introduced next session which would be worthy the consideration of the house. (Hear.) The Government having already allowed a bill to be introduced touching the representa tion of the people in this house, they might without in- consistency have assented to the introduction of the bill ; in fact, they had, as it seemed to him, debarred themselves from opposing it. His chief objmt in rising was to correct what he was pita sure was a misappre hension on the part of the hon. member as to the state ments of the Earl of Granville. Mr. J. H. PHILLIPS, referring to the observation of the nobie lord, that the greater number of voters would give greater weight te the representation, would like to ask the gentlemen who held the important officet of marshallers of divisions whether, when a division ran close, they cared more whether a vo . e, which turned a majority, was given by a member returned by 500 v t h o o t e iu s e o g r u a b l y i t y10,;f000. the r H e p e r es e went i n t a t i n o t n o details ,and e expressed o s p re h s s o e w d a wish that representation was more connected with taxation. The tendency of the pressure of consti tuencies on the members was to increase expenditure. There was indeed a desire to decrease general taxvion, but to increase special expenditure. All the members for the dockyard towns, for ia-tance, were lately obliged to vote for an injudicious and uncalled-for increase in the rate of dockyard wages, in defiance of the laws of political economy, and interfering with the due opera tion of supply and demand. One of them, indeed, had stood out manfuly, and refused to sanction it, no doubt to the great diminution of his popularity with his con stituents, Anothe- injurious action of the pressure of constituencies on their members was that there was a growing disposition to what he should call giving the British Lion an airing. (A. laugh.) That noble beast, however, could not go abroad without a great deal of expense—(hear, and laughter)—and some of his esca pades were more costly than they were worth. Mr. LOCKE said the point had been lost sight of in the debate. There had been minute calculations as to the numbers of electors-in counties and towns, but the real question was whether the persons who would be enfranchised by the bill were a proper class to be en trusted with the power of voting. He thought it was better to take such questions one by one. There were great difficulties in introducing any large measure, which could hardly be ex)ected to give satisfaction to a large majority of the members. Some members considered the ballot a sine qua non of any large measure that should be introduced. They thought that it was useless to give the franchise to a large number of persons with out the protection of the ballot, and even that without the ballot it would be better to disfranchise, No objec tion had been raised to the bill on principle. As to the British lion being let loose, he was very glad of it, and the British lion had the approbation of all real reformers. When they found that he had amongst his admirers at the same time the noble lord the member or London, and the hon. member for Ashton-ender-Lyre, it might well be sad that extremes met—(a laugh)—and when the British lion returned to his lair he might retire in comfort and satisfaction. Mr. KNIGHTLEY, who addressed the house in a very low tone of voice, was understood to oppose the bill, and said that many rural districts were very inade quately represented, and that if any places should be de prived of r epresentation it was the unimportant and nomination boroughs like Morpeth, Midburst, &c. Mr. CLAY said that the only objection that had been raised was that the bill would increase the existing anomalies; but that appeared to him to he a recommen dation, for it had always appeared to him that the more glaring an abuse became the better was the chance of its being remedied. He did the members for the counties the justice to believe that they would not consider it any cgronievance be thoughtelected th b a y t a te rge gr c i o e n v s a t n it e u e en w c o y uid o be on the on the part of the bore ugh members. The fact that a mem neene-. h be a r ncreepentrheserteesdpecat l i a ti rg w a cy h c ic o h ns h ti e tu w e a n she d l, i l d in ee t r h t a a t i nh i y The chief point of consideration was, did the bill pro pose to admit a class deserving of representation ? He believed that it did, and therefore he should support it as an instalment of a large measure of reform. Mr. BENTINCK said the right Lion gentleman the member for Taunton had said that they ought to vote black and white according to the circumstances in which they were placed. There was great caution in that de claration, but it was an extraordinary one. In this question an antagonism had been created between borough and county representation. The noble lord said that the influence of a member depended upon the num ber of his constituents. What did that mean ? That a representative with a large constituency could give a vote equal to two. The noble lord the member for London represented 20,000 constituents, and the noh!e lord the member for Tiverton represented 200, and yet the influence of the two noble lords in that house was about balanced. (Hear, hear.) No doubt the repre sentation was in a very defective state, but lie was not prepared to give his support to this measure with a view to amend it, as he believed it would lead to no practical result. Mr. COLLINS, amide loud cries for a division, said the question they had to decide was whether the bill would effectually amend the act of 1832. He did not think it would, and therefore he could not support it. It was a very popular thing to propose to swamp the county constituencies. If it was necessary to extend the county franchise, why did they not add the house holders in counties to the boroughs to which they were contiguous ? lie was as anxious as any man to see a reform of that hou , e, but he could not consent to such a measure as that which was now proposed. Mr. STANHOPE opposed the measure as being an attempt to swamp the couLties. Mr. L KING replie.i, aed said he did not intend this as a final measure, but merely as a step towards same greater measure, by the presai.t or some future Govern ment. The mo ion was then put, ai.d The SPEAKER declared that the ayes had it. No division was called f ; and, amidst loud cheers, leave was given to in the bill. PILOTS (ISLE OF WIGHT, Mr. CLIFFORD called the attention Of the house to the state of the law affecting pilots in the 1-14 of Wight and Portsmouth districts ; and moved for returns from the Trinity-house,showing the rate of profits accruing to such pilots. The motion was agreed to, after the assent of Mr. HENLET, who remarkei that the profits of the pilots were not so large as to demand reduction. WEIGHTS AND MEASURES. Mr. J. LOCKE a-ked leave to introduce a bill to amend an act of sth and 6th years of King William IV., cap. G 3, relating to weights and measures. The object of this bill was to introduce an uniform system cf weights and measures throughout the country. This principle had been infringed by the decisions of the courts of law, under which the act in question had been interpreted. After Mr. M'CANN, Mr. BASS, and one or two other members had expressed approval of the bill, leave was given to introduce it. CHURCH RATES. Mr. PULLER moved that this house will, to-morrow, resolve itself into a committee, fq. the purpose of con sidering the expediency of providing for the repair of churches and the maintenance of churchyards, by sub stituting for church rates such an annual rent charge upon all hereditaments in respect of which church rates may now be lawfully assessed upon the occupiers thereof, as will most fairly represent the total annual amount now raised by church rates; such rent charge to be a fixed and u , Horn] poundage on the rateable value of such hereditaments, and to be made a charge on the owners of the same ; the proceeds of Euch rent charge in each diocese to form a central fund from which grants may be made towards the repair of churches and the main tenance of churchyards, and to be administered by a body of persons elected for that purpose. He contended, at some length, that the subject was one for reasonable compromise. It was the form in which the rate was levied of which the Dissenters had to complain, and that form he prooosed to alter. Mr. WIGRAM seconded the motion. Mr. BUXTON moved as an amendment that it was desirable that power should be given to make addition to tithes for the maintenance of churches, and that power should be given to churchwardens to place rentals on the pews. General THOMPSON seconded the motion. Sir J. TRELAWNY opposed the motion, as turning a contingent tax into a certain tax. The distribution of the central fund would lead to endless dispute. Mr. LYGON thought that Dissenters ought to be exempted from the tax. Sir G. C. LEWIS wished to state shortly why he coded neither support the motion nor the amendment. (Hear.) He Lad an objection to the motion because it proposed a new universal and compulsory charge on the real pro perty of the country for the support of the church. The hon. gentleman asked the house to make it oompulsory and universal, and not only that, but he proposed to take away its parochial character ' and to give it a diocesan one. (Hear.) The resolution of the hon. member for New port was also a proposition for adding a charge on the real property of . the country. As the amendment stood at present, he apprehended that it could not be put according to the rules of the house ; but apart Iron that, he could not agree to a proposition for making at. addition to the tithes without knowing something more as to its object. He thought they had to choose be tween the entire abolition of church rates or some modi fled form of them. (Hear.) Mr. NEWDEGATE rose amidst lend cries for a division. It appeared to him that many members were anxious to c insider the proposition of the hen. member for Hertfordshire. He did not believe the house would reflect the feeling of the country if they did not take into consideration a proposition for sup porting the fabric of the church out of the real pro perty of the country. He thought that each parish should be allowed to exercise a control over the rates which were levied; and with that modification he thought the proposition of the hon. member for Hert fordshire would be acceptable to many members on his side. 'there were some members on the opposite side who wished to see church-rates altogether abolished as a steppingstone to the die establishment of the church, but he was sure that there were many others who ban no such intention, and he hoped they would support the motion of the hon. member f it Hertfordshire. Lord J. RUSSELL said that he had already declared that he . thought the proposition of the hon. member for Hertfordshire fair matter for consideration. He had examined his proposition since then, and felt bound to say that the two objections urged by his right hon. friend seemed to be sound objections. (Hear, hear.) He thought it objectionable to impose a rent charge upon property which had been for a long tivie exempted from the payment of church rates. He also considered it objectionable to place the control of the rate in the hands of a body in each diocese. As long as the chargeexisted,it ought to be a parochial one. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the subject itself, he had only to say that he could not understand how they could have a national church establishment without some pro v,sion for the repair of places of worship. (Hear, hear.) It did not seem to him to be reasonable to say that they would have a provision for the payment of the ministers but none for the maintenance of the churches. (Hear, hear.) However, seeing the contests and ill-feeling to which church rates gave rise, he was willing to listen to any proposition of a reasonable subeti+ute. (Hear.) He felt great objection to the proposition of the right hon. gentleman, but he would assent to it rather than leave the question a matter of strife. He should feel obliged to vote again , t the proposition for the absolute abolition of church rates. (Hear, hear.) He should also vote against the proposition of the hon. member for Hert• fordshire. Mr. WA LPOLE thought that the hon. member for Hertfordshire had clearly shown that the absolute abo tion of church rates was only a mode of putting into the pockets of the landlords a large sum that did not belong to them. (Hear.) He adopted that view of the ques tion, but at the same he thought the objections urged by the light hon. gentleman (Sir G. C. Lewis) were linens swerable. He would suggest to the right hon. genti man that he should bring forward the substitute he pro• posed when sitting on the ministerial side of the house —(lau;h'er)—in part of which, he (\lr. Walpole) agreed, and from part of which he die-ented. He dissented from that part. of the plan which proposed that they should abolish church rates, because they were nut now levier in certain places. He thought it w.,u'd be a premium on agitation if they were to say that church rates were not levied in future where they were refused. But he so far agreed in the justice of that part of the plan which said that an oppertunity should be afforded, notwith standing the Mortmain law, of making voluntary provi sion for the repair of the church fabric, that he regretted the proposition had ever come before the house. He saw no objection against allowing persons who had con - scienttous objections to the payment of church rates to ascent) from the payment of them, such persons, at the same time, giving up their claim to the privileges which belonged to churchmen. (" H ar, hear," and "No, no.") Meantime , howeve r, he could only say that he should oppose, with regret, the motion for going into committee of the whole house. Mr. ROEBUCK was not surprised at the proposition of the right hon. gentleman that his side of the house should aid the government in their functions and get them out of their difficulty. (Hear.) It the right hon. gentleman felt so strongly on the matter, and thought that the bill which passed the second reading was so detrimental, why did he not, in his character of a minister of the crown—(cheers)—come forward with a proposition agreeable to his own feelings, and in accord ance with the principles he advocated. (Hear.) From this the right hon. gentleman shrunk, and called upon his side of the house to perform the duty?' He (Mr. Roebuck) was one of those persons who were not at all inclined to do the duty of any one. The second reading of the bill for the abolition of church rates had passed the house, and he felt strongly inclined to think that the question would be settled that session. But they would listen to no compromise. (Hear.) One half of the parishioners throughout the country had refused to pay church rates, and yet the house was now asked to make them a permanent rent charge on the country. If the question was to be argued as a political-economical ques tion, he should be quite prepared to discuss it at a time when it could be fully argued. Mr. WIGRAM expressed a hope that the hon. mem ber fir Hertfordshire would take the opinion of the house on the resolution which he had proposed. By the common law of this country the obligation existed on perishes of maintaining the fabric of the church, and the principle of the r-solution was nothing more than the substitution in the place of that common law oblige. tion of an annual rent charge. Mr. BUXTON having withdrawn his amendment. Mr. PULLER briefly - replied, stating that he would not give the houi , e the trouble of dividing. (Loud cries of Ob, ob, and No, no.) On the question that the motion be withdrawn there were loud cries of No, no, and the SPEAKER declared that the " noes ' had it. The hue then divide]. The numbers were : For the motio❑ Against it Mr. AYRTON, understanding that Mr. Lygon meant to mow for leave to intr , duce a bill on church rates, moved the adj )urnment of the house. After a conversation, Sir G. C. LEWIS suggested that as several orders of th 9 day stood on the paper, the motion fur adjourn ment ought not to be pressed. Mr. WALPOLE said if they now took a division for the adj ,urnment it was evident when they came back there would be other divisions, and it would be impos sible f it the bon. member to get to his motion to-night. Mr. LYGON said he would postpone his motion until to-morrow (, his day). THE POOR-LAW AMENDMENT BILL. This bill was read a sec , ,ud time. CHELSEA HOSPITAL (PURCHASE OF LANDS BILL. This bill was read a second time. EXCISE DU I'IES BILL. This bill pa.sed through corn :.ittee. CUSTOMS DUTIES, NO, 2, BILL. Thie bill ra sed through committee. Mr. LOCKS KING'S bill for the extension of the county franchi4e was brought in and read a first time, and ordered to he read a second time on the 11th of May. The house then adjourned at five minutes to one. PAIRS ON THE ADMISSION OF JEWS INTO PARLIAMENT. Against For Against For llarewool, Earl Clifden, Vlset. 51an:SAd, Earl Kinnaird, Lord Erne, Earl De Freyne, Ld. Plunket, Lord Graiard, Earl Galloway, Earl Vivian, Lord Aylcsford, Earl Panmure, Lord Rosslyn, Earl P, , rtsmoalli,Erl.,Delamere, Lord Leinster , Du ke Manvers, Earl Eoxburghe, Dlc. !Eglintou, Earl Conyoghtun, Clanearty, Earl Talbot de Mala hide, Lord Bayninz, Lord Lothian, Marqs. St. John, Lord Bedford, Duke Orford, Earl Mon-on, Lord Maynard, Visct. Yarborough,Erl. Lineo:n, Bishop London, Bishop Salisbury, Bishp. Ailesbury,Marq. Clanwiliiatn,Erl. Shelburne, Earl Gray, Lord Poltimore, Lord Drogheda, Mrqs. Wharneliff,, Ld. stradbroxe, Earl Radnor, Earl Poulett, Earl Devon, Earl Kilmaine, Lord Morley, i..arl accleafleld, Erl Leigh, Lord Middleton, Lord Willotighby de Ereeby, Lord Guildford, Earl Strafford, Earl Marquis Jersey, Earl Clare, Earl Glengall, Earl ltoseberry, Earl Richmond, Duke Donegall, Maf q. Methuen, Lord Broughton, Lord Long ford, Earl Exmouth, Visct. Strathallan, Vise Carrington, Lord Westmeath,Mar Aberdeen, Earl Vane, Eat I Ravensworth,Ld Winchester, Mar Camperdown, Earl Ailsa, Marquis Carew, Lord Ab,rgave,,ny, Blantyre, Lord Earl Forrester, Lf rd Falkland, Vise t. Twe :Manners, Lord Canterliury,Visc Endeld, Visct. PARLIAMENTAIt Y DIVISION. HOUSE OF COSIMONS-Armr. 27. CHURCHES AND CHURCHYARDS. Motion made, and question proposed, " That this house will, to-morrow, resolve itself into a committee, for the purpose of considering the expediency of providing for the repair of Churches and the maintenance of Church yards, by substituting for Church Rates such an annual rent charge upon all hereditarsents in respect of which Church Rates may now be lawfully assessed upon the occupiers thereof, as will most fair y represent the total annual amount now raised by Church Rates. The house divided—Ayes 54, Noes :17• AYES-54. Baring, T. Goddard, A. Robertson, P. Bathurst, A. A. Heathcoate, Sir W. Rolt, J. Bennet, Capt. P. Holford, It. Rust, James sentinck, G. Ingestre, Viscount Bandon, Viscount govill, W. Knatchbull, W. Scott, F. gramley-Mooro, J. Knightley, R. Scott, Major turghley, Lord Langton, W. G. Shirley, E. Carnac, Sir J. R. Lygou, Hon.F. Stanhope, J. Cecil, Lord .R. Mainwaring, T. Steuart, A. Cubbold, J. C , March, Earl of Tollemache J. Deedes, William Maxwell, J. Trefusis, C. Dobbs, W. C. Miller, Taverner Vansittart, W. Du Cane, C. Miller, Stearne Wigram, Loftus T. Du Pre, C. Newdegate, C. Wyndham, H. Egerton, Sir P. Packe, C. Wynn, Col. Entlyn, Viscount Pakenham, Colonel Yorke, E. N'arnham, E. Pennant, Col. E. TELLERS. Fellowes, E. Philipps, J. Puller, Christopher Gard, R. Repton, G. Spooner, R. NOES-317. Adair, H. Foljambe, Francis Naas, Lord Adderley, C. B. Forde, Colonel Napier, Sir C. 1g ar-Ellis, Hon. L. G. Forester, Col. Newport, Viscount tgnew, Sir A. Forster, Charles Nicoll, D. Akroyd, E. Foster, W. 0. Nisbet, R. P. Alexander, J. k ortescue, Hon. F. Noel, G. Antrobus,,E. FreestunColonel Norris, J. T. l shley, Lord Gallwey, Sir W. North, Col. J. Atherton, W. Galway, Viscount North, F. Ayrton, A. Garnett, William O'Brien, P. Bagwell, John Gaskell, J. Ogilvy, Sir J. Bailey, C. Glyn, G. ' Osborne, R. Raines, Rt. Hon. M. Glyn, G. Paget, C. Bail, E Goderich, Viscount Pakington, Sir J. 6aring, Sir F. Greaves, E. Palmer, R. wring, T. G. Greene, John Pechell, Sir G. iarnard, Thomas Greenwood, John Peel, Sir R. Bass, M. Greer, Samuel Peel, Gen. Beach, W. Gregory, W. Perry, Sir E. Beale, S. Gray, Captain Philips, R. iieecroft, G. Grogan. Edward Pilkington, J. Berkeley, F. Grosvenor, Earl Pinney, Col. Biddulph, Col. R. M. Gurdon, Brampton Portman, W. Biggs, John Gurney, Samuel Powell, Francis Black, Adam Hadfield, George Power, N. Blackburn, Peter Hall, Sir Benjamin Price, W. Bolder°, Col. 11. G. Hamilton, Lord Claud Proby, G. 11 alumni-Carter, J. Hamilton, U. A. Pugh, D. Brady, J. Hanbury, Robert Ramsay, Sir A. Brand, Hon. 11. Handley, it, Rawiieso n , sir g, Bridges, Sir B. Hankey, T. Rebow, J. .rocklehurst, J. Hamner, Sir John Ricardo, 0. Bruce, H. A. liardcastie, Joseph Richardson, J. Bruen, H. Hardy, G. Ridley, George Buchanan, Walter Harris, J. D. Robartes, T. Bader, J. W. HArtington, Marquis Roebuck, J. A. Bury, Viscount Hassard, Michael Roupell, W. Butler, C. S. Ilatchell, John Russell, Lord J. Buxton, C. Liay ter, W. Russell, H. Buxton, Sir E. N. Headiam, T. Russell, A. tiyng, G. H. C. Henley, J. Salisbury, Enoch Cairns, 11. Hill, Hon. R. Schneider, Henry :alcatt, M. Hodgson, K. Scholefield, W. Campbell, It. Hodgson, William Seymer, H. Cardwell, E Hope, Alexander Seymour, Denby Cartwright, H. Hornby, W. Shafto, R. Cavendish, W. Horsfall, T. Shelley, Sir J. Charlesworth, J. C.D. Hudson, G. Sibthorp, Major Aleetharn, John Hunt, G. W. Smith, J. B. Cholmeley, Sir M. Hutt, W. Smith, M. Christy, Samuel Ingham, R. Smith, V. Churchill, Lord A. Inglis, John Smith, A. Clack, J. Ingram, H. Smith, Sir F. Clifford, C. C. Jackson, W. Smollett, A. afford, Lt.-Col. H.M. Jervoise, Sir J. Somerset, Colonel Ciive, George Johnstone, H. B. Somerville, Sir W. Clive, R. Johnstone, Sir J. Stafford, Marquis Close, M. Jolliffe, Sir W. Stanley, Lord Cogan, W. H. F. Jolliffe, H. Stapleton, John Cole, li. A. Kendall, N. Steel, John jollier, R. P. Kerrison, Sir E. Stewart, Sir M. Collins, T. Kershaw, J. Stuart, Colonel Conyngham, Lord F. King, L. Start, H. Corry, H. T. L. King, J. Start, C. Cowan, C. Klnglake, A. Talbot, C. Cox, W. Kinglake, J. Taylor, Colonel Craufurd, E. H. J. Kingscote, Capt. R. Taylor, S. Crawford, R. W. Kinnaird, A. Tempest, Lord A. V. Crook, J. Knatchbull-Huguessen Thompson, General Cross, R. A. Knight, F. Thornely, T. Crossley, F. Knox, Col. B. W. Thornhill, W. Curzon, Viscount Laslett, W. Tite, W. Dalglish, R. Lennox, Lord H. G. Tomline, G. Davey, R. Levinge, Sir R. Tottenham, C. [ Davie, Sir H. R. F. Lewis, Sir G. C. Truman. C. Davison, R. Liddell, H. G. Turner, J. A. Deasy, R. Lindsay, W. Verner, Sir W. Denison, W. H. Lisburne, Earl Vivian, H. H. Dent, John Locke, J. Waddington. H. Dillwyn, L. L. Locke, John Walpole. S. Disraeli, B. Lovaine, Lord Warren, S. Divett, E. Lowe, E. Wegaelin, T. Dod, J. Lyall, George Welby, W. Duff, M. Macarthy, Alex. Western, S. - Duke, Sir J. 31acartney, George Weathead, 6141hua Dunbar, Sir W. 31`Cann, J. Whatrnan, J. Duncombe, A. Mackie, J. Whitbread, S. Dunkellin, Lord M'Clinteck , Jehn Whit e , James Dunne. M. Maguire, J. F. Whiteside, J. Dutton, Hon. R. H. Mangles, R. D. Whitmore. H. Ebrington, Viscount Mangles, C. Wickham, H. Eawards, Henry Manners, Lord J. Williams, W. Egerton, Edw. C Alarjoribanks, D. Willyams, E. Ellice, E. Marsh, M. Willson. A. Ellice, E. Martin, C. Wilson, J. Elphinstone, Sir J. Martin, P. Wingfield, it. Elton, Sir A. H. Martin, J. Winnington, Sir T. Esmonde, J. Massey, W. Wood, W. Rstcourt, T. Melgund, Lord Woods, Henry Evans, I'. W. Mellor, John Wortley, Major Ewart, W. Miles, W. Wyndham, General &wart, J. Mills, T. Wynne, W. Ee ing, Crum Moffat, G. Young, A. Fagan, W. Moncreiff, Z. Fitzgerald, J. Montgomery, Sir G. TELLERS. Fitzroy, Henry Morris, D. Trelawny, Sir J. ' Foley, H. W. Mowbray, J. R. Gilpin, C. .e- Country Markets LIVERPOOL, APRIL 27. The arrivals have been fair this week of Indian corn, flour, and wheat, and of the two latter the greater pro portion is from France. The corn trade has been marked by inactivity during the week, millers and bakers havihg supplied themselves sparingly with wheat and flour. This inaction may in some degree be attributed to a change to nice spring weather, genial and fructifying rains, giving freshness to garden, field, and grove. Though the cheap ness of money induces importers to hold their stocks ra• ther than submit to loss, there is no observable tendency to speculate by other parties. A. small business was the general result to-day. There was but an ordinary attend. ante at our market this morning, with a steady sale for both wheat and flour. The only alterations were ld per bushel advance on beat Irish oats, and 6il per qr decline on white Indian corn. Full prices were exacted for barley, Weans, peas, and oatmeal. LEEDS, APRIL 27. At our corn exchange to-day there was a fair supply of wheat. The demand was steady, and the quotations about is over last week's rates for best qualities, and in some cases 2s for extra yellow Barley in less general demand, at rather under the prices of last week. In beans there was a good inquiry, as also oats ; and other articles nit changed. Averages for the week : Wheat, 42s 10Id I I Oats, 21s sid Peas, 46s 10d. Barley, 36s 10id 1 Beans, 40s lid Rye, —s Od. NORWICH CATTLE—APRIL 24. The show of cattle to-day was very large, and a good attendance of buyers, but little business was done, and at the close fully one-fourth remained unsold. Fat beasts, 6s 6d to Is 6d ; prime, 8s per stone ; being about same as last, week. Sheep, 42s to 44s per head, and good store pigs, 18s to 249. Fat pork, 6s to 6s 6d per stone of 141b9; trade dull. COURSE OF EXCHANGE.-YESTZILDAY. dmeterdam............ 11 15 Gibraltar •• •• •• •• Ditto, three months .. 11 17 y,(, Leghorn .. •• • • •• 29 77 aotterdam •• •• •• •• •• •• 11 17% Genoa .... 25 b 7 Antwerp •• •• •• •• ••••25 35 !Milan •.•••••• •• •• •••• Brussels .• •• •••••••• • • 25 35 iVenice•• •• •... •• a• •-• aamburgh •• •• •• •• •• •• 13 6% Napleg •• •• •••• •••••• •• 41% Altona •• •• •••..... •• • • Palermo .. •• Paris.... ••••••• •• •• 25 10 ;Messina • • ... 125% Do. three months 25 37% Lisbon ...... ••• 51% Marseilles .• .• •• •• •. 25 37% Oporto •• •• •• •• •• •• •• 51% Bourdeaux •• ..•• •... •• , Rio Janeiro...... •• Frankfort-Op-Maine •• .. 118% Buenos Ayre5.......... Baron 'New York,6o days' sight Vienna ......•••••• .... 10 35 Philadelphia •• •• ...... rrie5te........•• •• 10_36 PRICES Of BULLION, PER 022 Petersburg ............ 35 1 4 VlArid ••• •• •• ••... to •. 49 Foreign Gold in Bars £3 17 9 Portugal Gold Coin .. 0 0 0 c~uz......... ~ Mexican iioiTai;;;:: 0 01 0 11-v - celona ........ New Dollars .....• 0 0 0 Silver in bare ...... 0 5 1% At a tneetir g of the C4mtnittee of Bankers, held 711• terday, it was re,olved that, in the event!of the penny cheque stamp becoming law, the cost of such stamped cheques shall be charged to their customers. FIRTHS. Houu —On the 2Gth inst., at 5, Chesham-street, the lady of Lieut.-Colonel Hogg, Ist Life Guards, prematurely, of a daughter, stillborn. HOLLAND—On the 2lth inst., at Ashbourn, the Hon. Mrs. Frederick Holland, of a son. LARNICLI —On the 26th inst., at 21, Kensington Palace gardens, the wife of D. Larnach, Esq., of a daughter. STEwasT—On the 26th inst., at Penlu Cottage, Devon' port, the wife of Captain William Houston Stewart, C. 8., R.N., HAI S. Impregnable, of a daughter. ' CANE — On the 27th inst., at 7, Albert•terrace, Islington, the wife ( f James Gane, Esq., of a son. YOUNG — On the 26th inst., the wife of Charles Vernon Young, Esq., solicitor, Arbour-square, Stepney, of 14 daughter. MARRIAGES. COLE—DAWN—On the 20th inst., at Waloot Church, Bath, the Rev. Robert Eden Cole, M.A., eldest son of Lieut.-Colonel Cole, to Frances Elizabeth Christiana, eldest daughter of the late Robert Dawn, Esq. MORRISON—RUCK—On the 21st lust., at St. Giles', Cam berwell. Frederick, youngest son of W. Morrison, Esq. , of Peckham-rye, Surrey, to Mrs. Mary Ann Ruck, the granddaughter of Thom as R ow l an d L egg , E sq ., o f Win cholsea, Sussex. DEATHS, DOUGLAS—On the 23d inst., at Clifton, Major James Douglas, 60th Royal Rifles, eldest son of General Sir James Douglas, 8.C.8., aged 40. GASTINEAU-- On the 26th inst., at Camberwell, Thee. re Gastineau, late of the Bank of England, aged 78. HART—On the 22d inst., at Mitcham, Mr. Henry Harts aged 80. !TALL— On the 22d inst , at the Vicarage, Hatfield Broad o.ik, Essex, the Rev. T. F.ll, M. A:, aged 4 - 3. Mooltsom —Killed, at Lucknow, on the 11th March, while leading an assault, William Robert Moorsom, Captain 13th Light Infantry, Quartermaster-General of Division to Generals Havelock and Ontram, eldest son of Captain Moorsom, C.E., of Satis House, Rochester, aged 23. PALMER — On the 24th inst., at Eaton-place, William Palmer, Esq., of the Inner Temple, second son of theist! George Palmer, Esq., Nazing-park, Essex, aged 56. SUDLOW—On the 25th inst , John J. J. Sudlow , Esq., Of Heath Lodge, Weybridge, Surrey, and 38, Bedford-wig , London, aged 70. ,;N Printed and Puo!blhed by MURDO YOUNG of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Officer 24° ' 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the conni/ of Iliddlesex, Wednesday, April 28, 1858. ON 1 Th hour' Ste ertee to b , dilly fresi and Eve IU as. of I 201, ME Circ ado Intn ricn con Bar