The Sun. — London, England, 1860-03-06 00:00:00

may be necessary for giving effect," &v. The fact is we ' have taken those steps. (" No, no I The bills.") That is a formal affair; the decision of the house has been arrived at. In the case of 1787, when the address from which this is copied was moved, not a single vote in the committee of customs had been taked, the mode of levying the duties had not been altered, and therefore there is a great difference be tween the two cases. However, that is a question on which I will not dwell now. lam extremely glad that the noble lord has taken the course which he has done, and I am sure he must see its propriety, because it was, I believe, past midnight on Eriday when the notice was given. At that time a great number of gentlemen, including my right hon. friend the member for Droitwich had left the house, and many of them left town on the following morning. With regard to the time for the consideration of this address, I should think Friday would be a more convenient day than Thursday, as it would interfere with no other arrange ments, and I would therefore suggest to the noble lord that it would be more acceptable to the house if he would fix the Ility day instead of the earlier. Lord PALMERSTON was understood to say that this would lead to inconvenience in case of the adjournment of the debate. Mr. HOItSMAN called the attention of the house to the fact that during the present session they had given to the ,G4verritnent facilities forconducting business such as had tien asked by no Oci,ernment before, (Hear, hear.) Since the night when the tlancellor of the Exchequer introduced his budget the G ovenroimt had been allowed to appropriate every notice lay for the discussion of their financial resolu tions, No Such indulgen'ee was given to Sir R. Peel in 1842 or 18-15, nor was it asked by the present Chancellor in 1853, although on all those occasions the fiscal changes and the unsettlement of trade wore greater than they had been on the present occasion. More than this, the Government, to facilitate the passing of the Customs' duties, had been al lowed to appropriate Thursday for the introduction of the Reform Bill. All this had been cheerfully conceded ; but he thought the house ought to put a limit upon these con cessions—(hear, hear)—which had in no previous session been demanded by any Government. There had, of course, been occasions on which there had been adjourned debates upon the budget which had, to suit the general conve nience, taken precedence of notices of motion ; but to the present. Government had been readily and cheerfully con ceded that which had never been asked before. He, there fore, submitted that the Government ought not to press the house too far, and that, instead of asking for next Thurs day evening, they ought to fix the consideration of this address for Friday. Sir J. PAKINGTON—I cannot allow this conversation _ to close without expreSsing my satisfaction that the Govern ment and the hon. gentleman opposite have thought it right to take the course which they have done, and my earnest hope that the extraordinary notice given on Friday night will not be drawn into a precedent, because I must say that since I have had the honour of a seat in this house I can ramember no instance in which the conduct of the Govern ment had so much the appearance of an intention to take the house by surprise —(hear, hear)—and, if possible, to prevent or strangle the discussion upon a question of great interest and importance, as the notice which was given by the hon. member for Middlesex between 12 and 1 o'clock on Saturday morning. In my opinion, the course which was then taken by the Government and by the hon. member on their behalf was not only most unusual, but also most dis courteous to the house—( ' Oh, oh," and hear, hear)—and I fun very glad that the Government hare seen,fit to change their course. I entirely concur with my right hon. friend the member for Stroud in what he has said as to the prace tice of occupying Thursday nights with Government busi ness ; and I hope that the Government will not persevere in their intention to bring on this motion on Thursday even ing. The noble viscount has intimated across the table that the reason for taking that course is the - possibility of the debble being adjourned. In answer to that, I will say that the Government must take the chance which all Govern ments have on all occasions taken when bringing forward bills on Government nights ; and, therefore, hope that the house will not sanction this proposal. (Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I think the right hon. baronet, seeing there is no difference of opin ion as to the course which ought to be pursued, might have abstained from making the deliberate charge which he has thought proper to prefer against the Government of endea vouring to stifle discussion upon the commercial treaty with France. (Hear, hear.) 1 do not think the Government have shown any desire to stifle discussion. (Hear, hear.) We are perfectly satisfied by the results of the discussion which has taken place, Sand perhape it is some dissatisfaction with those results which has induced the right hon. baronet to make his unnecessary charge. (Hear, hear. But, however, thatmay be, I think my right hon. friend the member for Stroud is labouring under a misapprehension with respect both to principle and to fact. In the first place, with re gard to the acceleration of public business, I must always, whether in or out of office, protest aeainst the assumption that it is a favour to the Government to allow them to pro ceed with their measures on days that do not properly be lung to them. It is not at all for the convenience of the Government that they ehould be permitted to take a larger share than usual of the tile of the house. My right hon. friend must know that a rapid rate of proceeding brings an additional and a very inconvenient amount of labour upon the:Government. It is a regard to the general interests of the country and to the very definite and press ing interests of the whole commercial and trading classes that makes us anxious to arrive at an early conclusion on the budget. (Hear.) But I think likewise my right hon. friend is wrong in point of fact. lam not prepared to quote chapter and verse, of the precedents at the present moment, but, uulees my recollection geeatly deceives rae, we did, upon many nights in ISI2, proceed with the tariff when the Government had not regular precedence. Un doubtedly that WO s not the only instance, for under all Governments, when the case has appeared to be of suffi cient urgency to justify it, a similar demand has been made and acceded to by the house. Of emus° that is a question entirely in the discretion of the house ; and when ever the Government perceives the existence of a general adverse disposition on the part of the house it will at once withdraw such a demand. But I think my noble friend has given on this occasion one very special reason why it is eminently for the convenience of all parties that we should goon, as proposed on Thursday. If there is to be an adjourned debate we shall be able to carry it on after an interval of only a few hours, instead of one of three days, and those gentlemen who may be detained in London will be liberated at a much earlier period. (A laugh.) But it so happens that if any one will take the trouble to turn to the notices which stand for Thursday he will see that it is a day eminently convenient for the motion of the hon. mem ber for Middlesex to be made. We are not endeavouring to bring forward an order upon a notice night. The hon. mem ber for Middlesex (gives notice of a motion, and proposes to place it on the paper for Thursday. It may stand very well upon its own merits as a notice which will only compete with other notices, and which w al not displace any without the full consent of the movers. It seems to be forgotten that the Government - have not ; ' after all, received the favours of which we hare heard. arrinclit All we have been enabled to do by the aid and kindness of many hon. members has been to occupy the later portions of two or three evenings which otherwise mightnot have been occupied at all. On Thursday night, it is irue; My noble friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs eves permitted to bring forward a very important subject at au early hour; but on Tuesday night the hon. member At Bridgewater, in the exercise of his discretion, called the attention of the house to a question of which he had given:,nOtice, and although we were allowed to occupy the later ; portion of &evening no inconvenience was expe rienced ley any merit so harp' ns, however, as I have al. ready said, that the notices foi Thursday next are not very numerous, and I believe they will be found to be either such as are not likely to lead to prolonged discussions, from the nature of the subjects, or such as cannot lead to pro longed discussion because they are agreed to. The motion relating to dockyards has been agreed to, and the motion on our relations with the Neapolitan Government is, I un derstand, one 'that cannot be conveniently discussed in de tail in the:present state of affairs and the present state of the house as to information. I must say, therefore, it would be little better than e. waste of time if we were not to take the convenient opportunity of proceeding with the impor tant motion of my hon. friend the member for Middlesex on Thursday, with the view, of closing the discussion on Friday in case the house should 'wish for an adjourned debate. But that rests in the discretion of the house, only - yea are not disposed to take the opinion of two or three members for the general wish of the house, as is sometimes done. My belief is, that the general inclination of the house, as far as we are able to gather it, is in conformity with the notice given by the hon. member for'Middlesex—viz., that he should pro ceed with his . motion on ThUrsday. (Hear, hear.) Mr. S. FITZGERALD reminded the house that the Uovernment had done no more than accede to the sugges tion of the hon. member for Sunderland, that the motion for an address on the subject of the . French treaty should be Postponed for a day orlwo. It seemed to him, however, that the question which had been raised by the hon. member for Bridgewater was one of still greater importance. It was not a question whether on Thuritlay or Friday the house should signify its assent to or disapproval of a commercial treaty, or whether that discussion should be deferred till another occasion. Neither was it a question whether the house should express its opinion on the contemplated an nexation.of Savoy and Nice to France. The question was whether the house should embrace the present opportunity, when matters seriously affecting the relations of this coun try and the whole of Europe with France were before the public, of signifying its assent to a treaty, by which, in the words of the noble lord at the head of the Foreign_ o fil ee, our relations with France were to be rendered closer and more intimate. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Bridgewater had well pointed out that the question raised by him in his speech was of far greater impor tance than the mere annexation of a small portion of territory. It only affectsd the independence andthe m security r of Switzerland, but, as the hon. baronet h for Tamworth had stated, in forcible language, it had a very important bearing upon the relations of France with Germany. (Hear, hear.) It had also an important bearing upon the relations of France with Italy, where in consequence of the progosed annexation France might ex ercise an influence and power far more formidable thanhad at any time been exercised by Austria. (Hear, hear.) But the question was one of still greater importance to Europe, .........g..0..... which might possibly see in the project of annexation said to be entertained by the Emperor of the French a key to the claims and the future policy of France. There were passages in the speech of the Emperor eminently calculated to raise the suspicions and misgivings of Europe. His Ma jesty spoke, for example, of what he called the "natural limits" of France. (Hear, hear.) The house would see, therefore, that the question was one of the greatest Euro pean importance, and one in which this country was deeply interested. What was the position of Europe at the pre sent moment ? There was not a single country in Europe that did not regard the policy of the extraordinary man who now wielded the destinies of France with anxiety and alarm. (Hear.) There was not a country in Europe the statesmen, of which did not look to France with something like fear. Yet there was net a country in Europe that was prepared to take the initiative in such a matter. All the nations of Europe looked to England, where there was a free Parliament, a free press, a free expression of public opinion. (Hear.) They relied upon us to take the initia tive, and he believed that if we did so they would follow. What, however, was the position in which the Government wished to place this country ? Instead of using language, not such as the noble lord at the head of the Foreign-office had used, but language recording our earnest, emphatic, and unflinching protest against the annexation of Savoy and Nice, the Government proposed that, passing by the dis cussion to which the Foreign Minister had invited the house, Parliament should take into consideration the clauses of a commercial treaty with France at the very moment when the policy of France was creating distrust and alarm throughout Europe. (Hear, hear.) On Friday night the noble lord opposite declared that the question of the annexa tion of Savoy and Nico was one for the consideration, not of the Crown or of the Government, but of the people of England and the House of Commons, and yet he was now asking the house to parade itself before Europe in the act of drawing closer the bonds of alliance with France, as if there was an identity of policy and of interests between the two countries. (Hear, hear.) The present was not the time for such language as the Foreign Minister had held. He granted that the noble lord, as appeared from the re cently published correspondence, had remonstrated against the course pursued by France and against the project said to be entertained by the Emperor. But we wanted more than the mere language of remonstrance. We did not want the noblo lord to write to Turin that the sur render of the cradle of his illustrious family would bo " a blot on the escutcheon" of the King of Sardinia. That was mere rhetoric, rather than, the earnest and vigorous protest which we desired. (Hear, hear.) We were bound by the faith of solemn treaties. (Hear, hear.) We had treaties with Austria, with Prussia, and with Russia, and what the country wanted to see from the Powers thus united was a solemn protest against a project which, he feared, was not only entertained, but in part accomplished, and which ho believed to be dangerous alike to the interests and the tranquillity of Europe. (Cheers.) Under these circum stances he would suggest to the noble lord that the consi deration of the clauses of the commercial treaty should not take place until the house had the opportunity of clearly and decidedly expressing an opinion as to this annexation of Savoy and Nice. (Hear, hear.) He dii not doubt that the opportunity would be found, either by the action of some independent member, or by some proposition on the part of the Government, to take the papers into consideration; and then, on Monday next, if the noble lord proceeded to the consideration of the clauses of the commercial treaty, a course - would be adopted by which the public service would be greatly benefited. (Hear.) Mr. BRIGHT thought ho might a.ssume that the language of the hon. gentleman was the language of the right hon. member for Buckinghamshire and of Lord Derby, who, in another place, was the leader of the party to which the hon. gentleman belonged. (Hear, and a laugh.) The hon. gen tleman had not taken a very active part in the discussions of the house until within the last 12 months, when, from the official position in which he was placed, it was necessary for him to do so, and it must be admitted that the hon. gen tleman when in office conducted the business of his depart ment, as far as that house was concerned, in a satisfactory manner. (Hear, hear.) He ? therefore the more regretted to be obliged to say that ho observed that a very remarkable change had taken place since the hon. gentleman quitted office ; and he did not know that he had heard , for, a long time a speech in that house which had given him more astonishment and pain than that which the hon. gentleman had just delivered. He did not ask the hon. gentleman to please him in the speeches which the hon. gentleman made and he certainly in his speeches did not t‘y to please hen. gentlemen opposite—(a laugh) ; but he did ask that when hon. gentlemen addressed the house they should well con sider the gravity, of the question, and endeavour, as far as other countries were concerned, not to import into the dis cussion any unnecessary irritation. From what had been observable during the last foi :might or three weeks, it was quite obvious that the commercial treaty was very unplea sant to lion. gentlemen opposite. (Hear, and oh, oh.) There were many reasons why it should bo so, some of which they were not likely to admit, and which it was not necessary for him to state; but he asked whether it was a manly course to eudeavor-, %then the commercial treaty was on the point of being concluded bythe ratification of the house, and when throughout the country there was but one voice with re spect to it—(cries of " Oh," and " Hear, hear")—and when that house had already shown itself most unmistakeably in its favoUr—was it manly, he asked, to associate the treatment of that particular question, and of the Govern ment in respect to it, with another question which might or might not be important, but which was liable to create irritaiion here and elsewhere ? (Hear.) -The hon. member for Bridgewater and maniother hon. membera had strong feelings on this question of Savoy. What course did they propose to take ? Did they propose to take out of the hands of the Crown or of the Goverament any management or control of the matter ? If they believed that there was any thing in the papers not creditable to the noble lord who had the management of the foreign affairs of the.country or to the honour of the Crown. of England, could they not pro pose a motion with respect to those papers on any night in this or next week to the effect that the conduct of the Go vernment was not creditable, and that the interests of the country had not been duly regarded ? Then the matter would be fairly discussed and battled out, and if the hon. gentlemen opposite could carry a vote of censure, then the great object of their ambition would be attained; the Go vernment would be turned out, and hon. gentlemen opposite would sit on the Ministerial benches, and when they did they would, he presumed, from the force of circumstances, carry out precisely the same policy. (Cheers.) There were not a few persons in this country who regretted the course taken by the right hon. member for Buckinghamshire on this question, for no doubt that right hon. gentleman prompted the virtuous indignation of the hon. member for Horsham. That course was one' not void of some consider able peril. lie had seen the course followed by the party opposite in 18.53 and 18.54. There was not an insinuation of any kind which was not resorted to at that time withthe view of damaging Lord Aberdeen's Government, and Lord Aberdeen especially, though such a course might occasion war, and did, no doubt, much to make the unfortunate war that ensued inevitable. (Oh, oh !). He did not ask hon. gentlemen opposite to agree with him; ho was only telling • them what a great number of people believed, and the opi nion was growing stronger every day that there were per sons occupying high positions before the public who would rather see a great alienation from France—even though it might lead to the terrific consequences of another war—than a growing friendship between England and France, which was likely to result from the commercial treaty. (Oh, oh and Hear, h6r 0 He agreed with the right hon. member for Buckinghamshire very much in this, that Government could not very well be carried on in this country with out something that assumed the character of party, but still he had no great affection for party fights. At any rate, there were many subjects in the course of a session on which party fights might bo taken, but in the name of all that was sensible, all that was humane and just to man kind, let. them banish from their party discussions ques tions of irritation like that raised to-night—questions which grew by this sort of discussion, and, sometimes in a very short time, till they got beyond the control of those who first raised them. (Cheers.) If 'they could conceive themselves for a moment to be sitting in France, instead of in England, and hearing this kind of discussion—if they could suppose England and France to change places on the question of Savoy, and England to desire annexation, could not hon. gentlemen then perceive that the sort of tone in which the matter was taken up, and the sort of menace which the hon. gentleman offered, was precisely the kind of thing which made—if such a thing were possible—war absolutely inevitable ? The hon. gen tleman proposed, in effect, that the house should not pro cied with the commercial treaty until the question of Savoy should be settled. (Cheers and counter cheers.) Did he misunderstand the hon. gentleman ? [Mr. S. Fitzgerald intimated that he had not said so.] Then he retracted the statement; but he was quite sure that the tone of the hon. gentleman's observations led to that conclusion. (Cheers.) Besides, he should ask, what was the object of tying the two things up together, unless one was to be made dependent on the other? (Hear.) He ventured to say that no words that could be put into a resolution would more decidedly cause a rupture between France and England thap words declaring that the house would not consider the commercial treaty until the question of the annexation of Savoy was settled. (Hear, hear.) Now, he was not going to discuss that question ; but a great deal might be said for it on the part of France, and against it on the part of England. It appeared to him one of those questions which had better not be stirred, but which, being stirred, concerned the peo ple of FranCe, of Sardinia, and of Savoy much more than the people of England. As a matter of material interest it did not concern England at all, but only as a matter of sen timent, as all were desirous here that nobody should destroy the old landmarks of Europe.** It was impossible, however, for any person in the position of the government of a great country to h ave stated h i s case, hi s w i s h es an d i n t en ti ons , in more fair a n d open l anguage t h an t h at rea d b y th e h on . member swhicht view r o d for B r id gewater. The hon. member, indeed, ad : were hoe onlyw would ul words v take t the r ueie f t mitted that if th e words he read were the only words in the t o o f t t h h e em oo ,- tibon f ut o those o ththe Emperor, the other words refei • ring solely to the Emperor's *fishes and rights. If, however, any hon. gentleman felt aggrieved on the subject, let him.bring forward a specific resolution, and then the noble lord the memb er f or London wou ld be enabled to defend his course on this question ; but IttE SUN,`,: LONDON, 'TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 6, 1860. he implored the house not to let it appear that it preferred a party embarrassment—a party victory if it might be—or the peril of breaking up the friendly relations between this country and France, to the acceptance of that great treaty, on which the people of England believed their future com mercial interests to a very considerable extent depended. (Hear.) He had not risen to defend th 3 Government, but when a question of this sort was made a ground of attack from night to night, he believed he placed !these attacks imperilling peace with France, and therefore with Europe, on the real ground when he stated that they were made for a party object, for which a great party ought to be ashamed. - - then ? . During the Italian war and after it the Emperor of the French did all he could to make friends with the despots of Empe, and all he could to throw off the English alliance. (Hear, hear, and oh !) Why do I say that ? I take the ex pression of opinion in the press of France to be the expres sion of the Emperor's opinions. (Hear, hear.) Having felled to win the friendship of the despots of Europe, he fell back upon his old ally, and then he silenced by one blow the press of France. (Oh, and cheers.) Is that not true ? (Hear.) Did he not issus his fat, and did not till the insolence and all the impertinence against England at once cease ? (Oh, and cheers.) I have faith in the English House of Com mons, although some may be base enough to truckle to an Emperor—(hear, hear) —and I am sure this House of Com mons will maintain the character, the dignity, and the hon , our of England. (Cheers.) To go back to what I was say ing :—the Emperor of the French turned round, and again cultivated the friendship of his old ally. We were sworn friends again, but I can't forget what that phase of that man's life disclosed. (" Question I" and cheers.) You may not like what I say, but I am sure it is the question for us to consider. I say, what are we to do ? Are we at once, and without consideration, to accede to this treaty ? I am most anxious at once to close with this treaty of commerce if we can. (Hear.) But I would not close with it in such a way as to appear to sanction the proceedings of the Emperor of the French in the annexation of Savoy. (Hear.) There fore, I say the consideration of this question ought to be de. ferred until the house has had an opportunity of declaring its opinion as to the annexation of Savoy. (Hear, hear.) I am quite sure a large majority of the house would at once adopt the language of the noble lord the member for Lon don, and declare itself hostile to that annexation. And here I must say, if the noble lord will permit me, that I think the honour of England is quite safe in his hands—that his language has been in accordance with the views of the people, and that nothing could be better than the man ner in which ho has declared his honest feelings upon this matter. (Hear, hear.) I call upon the House of Commons to say what the noble lord has said, and to declare its opi nion upon this matter before we say that we are willing to enter into a treaty of commerce between the two nations. I only ask the house to do that, and that when it .has declared the annexation of Savoy to be against the honour and dignity of England to say to France, " If you will enter into negotiations, we wish to have peace and content between the two countries, and we will even sacrifice oar feelings to gain that end. (Hear, (Cheers.) Mr. LIDDELL said the hon. gentlemen on his side of the house were not prepared - to regard the annexation of Savoy with a pusillanimous indifference. (Hear, hear.) It was very convenient for the hon. member (Mr. Bright) to evade the main point of this question, but the fact was that England stood pledged to maintain the independence of Switzerland, and that independence was seriously endan gered by the proposed annexation. (Hoar, hear.) With re spect to the treaty, he hoped the hon. member for Sunder land (Mr. Lindsay) would not accept the courteous offer of the noble Premier. The hon. member had long since given notice of an amendment upon the third article of the treaty ; and if the noble lord's proposal were accepted, the House of Commons might find itself in the position of the man. who locked the stable door when the steed was gone. . _ (Hear, and a laugh.) They wished to urge the Government to press upon France the impolicy of continuing those un just restrictions in favour of French shipping provided for in the third article ; but their chances of success would be very much lessened if the amendment were deferred as the noble lord desired. (Hear.) Mr. WHITESIDE—The hon. member (Mr. Bright) has imputed to gentlemen on this side of the House that for a party object they are desirous of catching at this question of Savoy in order to expel the Ministry from their places. Now, I think he will see upon reflection that that imputa tion is not one which he ought to have made. (Hear, hear.) Has this difficulty been created by any act of those around me ? By no means. The person who jeopardises the peace of Europe is he who does not respect the faith of treaties — who says thatgeographically he is entitled to one country,a.nd that logically he is entitled to another. (Hear.) That is the argument in reference to Savoy and Nice. Does any imputation rest on the Foreign Secretary ? No. I have only looked into these despatches; but as far as I have read them I think that they reflect honour upon the noble lord, and that he has asserted the interests of peace, the interests of his country, and the interests of Europe. (Cheers.) But our object is, in accordance with the noble lord's own speech the other evening, to strengthen the hands of the Ministry by expressing clearly and distinctly the opinion of Parliament, not as the hon. member (Mr. Bright) supposes, upon the internal affairs of France, but upon an intended encroachment by one Power on the terri tories of another country, guaranteed to that other country by the faith of treaties. (Hear, hear.) The effect of such an expression of opinion by Parliament, as I ,believe, will be not to create war, but to prevent it ; and the hon. gen tleman wholly mistook what my hon. friend said, because when he expressed a hope that Parliament would protest against annexation, the hon. gentleman should recollect that a protest is not a war, but a substitute for war. (Hear, hear.) For exsmple, when the French army marched into Switzerland Lord Malmesbury protested, but we did not go to war. And I venture to say that if a distinct and manly protest be made by England and the other great Powers of Europe against this attempt to violate the treaties which guarantee the peace of Europe, that protest will be attended with better results than even the manful despatches of the Foreign Secretary. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member (Mr. Bright) was therefore rash in his imputation upon my hon. friend and the gentlemen near me, who are desirous to maintain peace, but at the same time desire to preserve the faith of treaties and the honour of their country. (Cheers.) M. B. OSBORNE—I will not attempt to impugn the motives of the hon. member (Mr. S. Fitzgerald). His mo tives may be pure and honourable, but I do take upon myself to question the discretion of his speech. (Hear.) .When an hon. gentleman who has occupied the position of Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs makes such a speech respect ing the Emperor of the French, I must say that I think it highly indiscreet and very much to be deprecated. (Hear.) What must be the effect produced on the highly inflammatory susceptibilities of the French people when they hear of such observations made, amid the cheers of his party, by a gen tleman who has held so high a position? I do not believe the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) inspired him with that speech, for the right hon. gentleman is far too sensible of the value of the French alliance ; and the right hon. gentleman who has just spoken also sees so fully the indis cretion of the speech that he has endesvoured to explain it away to the satisfaction of this house and of our neighbours across the water. (A laugh.) But if we are every night to be making this an opportunity for discussing the affairs of the French Government and of Sardinia, what is to come of it ? (Hear, hear.) Are we to lay hold of this commer cial treaty, which is meant to be one of amity, and turn it instead into a source of war ? (Hear, hear.) By the course you are pursuing I firmly believe that you are laying the foundations of enmity between the two countries. (Cheers.) As to the policy of annexation, I don't agree with the views of the hon. member (Mr. Bright). I think he made that speech under some momentaryirritation, and I am sure that after consideration has led him to repent of many of those sentiments. (A laugh,) If, however, the question may be regarded from another point of view, let us, when the proper time arrives for doing so, give it a calm, candid, and open discussion; but do not let us, night after night, upon the mere withdrawal of a motion, utter such irritat ing sentiments. (Cheers.) I heard with great pleasure the speech made the other night by the hon. baronet (Sir 'H. Peel). It was a speech distinguished by great eloquence, and I trust that we shall often hear the hon. baronet again, but I also hope that to eloquence he will join discretion, and will not on every possible occasion make Savoy the staple of debate in this house. (Hear.) I have confidence in the noble lord the Foreign Secretary. From the re marks. of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Whiteside) it would seem that we all agree that the noble lord is conducting these very difficult affairs with judgment and moderation. Let us, then, assist him in the best way we are able—namely, by so debating the subject in this house as not to embarrass him, but to strengthen his hands in negotiating. (Hear, hear.) Without impugning the motives of hon. gentlemen opposite, I ask the House not to be led away by any anti-Gallican feeling, and not to mix up this Savoy question with the commercial treaty, which he have a fair prospect of debating on Thursday evening. (Hear, hear.) Mr. ROEBUCK.—Not being of any party whatever— (laughter)—l think I may reply to the question, why we mix up the two subjects of the commercial treaty and Savoy. For the treaty of continerce no man is more anxious than I am ; but at the same time I have my own opinion about the annexation of Savoy. (Hear, hear.) I will tell the hon. gentleman, then. why we connect the two. With the internal affairs of France we have nothing to do. The French place Whom they please at the head of their Government. They present him to the world, and with him we negotiate. It is, therefore, the duty of England to negotiate with tho present Emperor of the French. We do not ask how he came to the throne. We do not ask what is his character. We do not, when negotiating with him ex press what we think of the man. All these questions must enter into our minds; but we negotiate with him candidly, freely; honestly, though we have our own opinion as to the result of that negotiation. Now being, as I said, of no party, and not being a Government official, I think it my duty on the present occasion, simply as a representative of the people of England to state what I accept as the result of the commer cial treaty, supposing it had passed. 'With the people of France I have the most earnest desire to maintain the most friendly relations. I believe it is for the happiness of mankind that these two great nations should be upon relations of amity. (Hear, hear. As the French nation has chosen its governor, with him I am quite prepared to deal, but I cannot help form ing my own conclusion as to the result of this negotiation. The result of this negotiation will, I believe, very much do.. pend upon the character of the man with whom we have to deal. Now, what does that man do? Upon this occasion I am not simply to consider what the hon. member for Birmingham calls the danger of the question. (Hear, hear.) I have to consider the honour of England. (Cheers.) I say that if at this time we did not speak our minds we should be truckling to the Emperor of the French. ' (Cheers.) 'We should not be the England which I believe we are. (Con tinued cheers.) I say that this man who is now entering into friendly relations with us is breaking all the treaties we have made, and is casting dishonour upon England by mak ing it appear that we are his friends, while he is doing adis graceful and dishonourable act. (Hear, hear, and Oh.) I do not mince my language. I don't fear that man, but I intoa(Ec i c e e a df r e ; hear.) nn intercourse. uh t is rtt ss h d. e o ndTeooibnotglhda?l that invitation ib H nyv e is t i oa n tdvi doing. t in e n sj . s wl to l ti e he n i ng t l o ter have a fear l es t E ngland be thought to truckle to h i m. I he has acted doubly boldly, when, having quarrelled with his priests, he ventures to quarrel with his Prohibitionists at the same time. But he has done a bolder act. At the same time that he invites England to be his friend he seeks to break the treaties which England has made. He talks of acquiring the versants des Alpes. If I understand what that means ho will go still further. (Hear, hear.) The man who talks of geographical reasons for wishing to aps preach the Alps mayfor the same reasons desire to approach the Rhine. (Cheers.) And so, if we now stand by with " bated breath" while he a pp roaches the Al ps , we shall by and by see him acquire the R henish p rovi nces of Prussia and d crush Belgium o then we to do that which we ought to do now, and proclaim boldly that we think it would be dishonourable to do that which he is about to do. I do not ask for war—(hear, hear, and a laugh) ;—I know there is pugnaeity at the bottom of all the hon. member for Bir mingham does. (Laughter.) When I say I do not wish to fight ho laughs at me. (Renewed laughter.) But, sir, there is something in the grave and solemn declaration of a great people like England—(hear, hear) —even with the Emperor of the French. (Hear, hear.) I have known the time when a declaration of this house stopped him short in his career. I recollect the time when this house was solicited to alter the legislation of England to please him. This house re fused to consent to that. (Hear, hear.) We stopped him short in, his capek Ow, and what has beeuhis course since hear.) Mr. CONINGHAM was not at all disposed to truckle to the Emperor of the French, but felt bound to protest against the use of such language as they had just listened to as ap plied to tho ruler of a friendly nation. (Hear.) He knew that the language applied in that house to the Emperor was in Franco considered to be the expression of the sentiments of that house towards the French nation. (Hear, heer.) Nothing could be more injurious to the interests of both nations, more injurious to the interests of civilization. (Hear, hear.) Hen. gentlemen opposite professednow great sympathy for Savoy, but when Poland was divided, when Cracow was absorbed, when the Russians marched into Hungary, he did not remember there were any protests on the part of the great Conservative party. (Hear, hear.) The annexation of Savoy was a question in which England had an interest, but if the districts contiguous to Switzerland were to be given to that republic he thought that arrange ment *mild much modify the views which woulkotherwise be entertained of the proposed transaction. - Lord J. RUSSELL.—If any hon. gentleman in this house thought it necessary to propose to consider the whole question of Savoy, to find fault with the mode in which that question has been treated by her Majesty's Government, or to take the matter entirely out of the henna of the pre sent Government, that would be a useful and intelligible course. (Hear, hear.) It might be that we had spoken too tamely upon the subject, that men of higher abilities and mere animated spirit might be able to deter the Govern ment of France from proceeding in any way with the an aexation of Savoy. Those who could succeed in persuading the house to adopt that view might take the place of those who have hitherto conducted the negotiations and proceed to put their views in practice. But there is one course which is neither consistent with constitutional proceedings in this house, nor consistent with the ordinary confidence reposed in the Government—(hear, hear)—and which, above all, is not consistent with the maintenance of amicable feelings between this country and France. (Hear.) That course is the renewal day after day of irritating discussions — (cheers)—putting forward particular points and incidents, asking for no decisive vote, proposing no definite resolution —(cheers)—but always pointing out the person whom the French by immense majorities have chosen to rule over them as a ruler whom we must distrust, against whom we ought to be perpetually prepared. That course must tend to alienate the two countries, and to bring about a total rupture of amicable relations. (Hear, hear.) Now, lam sorry to say that that is a course which some gentlemen think it convenient to take, and I must on this occasion ask them really to come to somo definite resolution as to what they themselves propose by their speeches on this question. (Cheers.) What has happened is this,—l must again state it,-- It appears that when there was a disc-mg sion between France and Sardinia—when there was a measure of concert arranged betwen them with respect to the defence of Sardinia against Austria—some question was raised, or some conversation passed, on the subject of annexing Savoy to France. The war began ; the war ended with the annexation of Lombardy to Sardinia, and with no further conquest on the part of France. It was understood that, according to theprelirninary treaty of Vil lafranca and the subsequent treaty of Zurich, the Grand Dukes of Tuscany and Modena were to return to their do minions ; that the Popo was again tohave possession of the Romagna ; and that Lombardy alone was to be the prize of the King of Sardinia. The Emperor of France was the man who promoted that arrangement, and did all he could to brins; it to a successful result; and it was fully under stood that in that case there would be no question of the annexation of Savoy. Well, that arrangement did not please the Italian people; the Emperor of France said ho would not use force to coerce their inclinations ; and those incli nations wore evidently in favour of their living under the rule of the King of Sardinia. The Emperor of France said, when it was clear that such would be the probable result, it WAS desirable for the security of France that she should have the side of tho Alps that lay towards France and that she should have her frontier strengthened. On that ques tion her Majesty's Government differed with the Emperor of France ; but I must say I never for a moment concealed our opinions uponit from the Emporor of France. (Cheers.) I was not wanting in telling him, frankly and plainly, what our opinions were of that annexation, and what were the consequences which might follow in Europe from car • rying it into practical effect. But other Powers have to take their part. The Emperor of the French took his part so far that he declared to her Majesty's Govern; ment, both through his Ambassador and through his Minister for Foreign Affairs, that he would not proceed to that annexation without consulting the great powers of Eu rope. It might be feared that by a sudden military occupa tion he might seize the capital of Savoy and the passes of the Alps; but he has declared in the face dell Europe that he will not so proceed. (Hear.) Those other powers to which he has referred have to be consulted. We have told him frankly our sentiments on the subject, and I do not know that we can say more. But the question remains still to be decided in what way the other powers will be consulted. Her Majesty's Government have spoken out on the subject as has also the British Parliament ; and the British public and I may say all Europe, will soon know the manner in which we have spoken. But the other Powers have not yet spoken ; I cannot presume to say what the opinion of those rowers will be on the subject in question; but is it at such a moment, let me ask, and on such a subject, thatthe House of Commons will consent, day after day, to listen to vague discussions founded on no definite resolution ? (Cheers.) It is my persuasion—l may be totally mistaken on that point, because other circumstances may occur to disappoint any such prophecy—but my persuasion is that if the language of disapproval is held in Berlin, is held in Vienna, and held in St. Petersburg, that this project of annexation will not be persevered in. (Loud cheers.) I have said we don't as yet know in what language those great Powers will express themselves. Nay, more—the very Power which is most in terested in this question—the Government of Sardinia itself —has not spoken on the subject. (Hear.) The members of this house, and the public, may have seen two despatches which have appeared in the ltioniteur, and have since been reproduced in the newspapers here, which contain a project furthe settlement of Italy, suggested by France, and one of which despatches ends by stating that in case that project were adopted it would still be necessary, for securing the frontiers of France, to add Savoy. That question concerns Sardinia more than any other Power in the world. (Hear.) It is naturally the part of his dominions of which the King of Sardinia must be the most proud ; it is the country in which his house 'arose; and* in the course of time it has' numbered among its people many of the most gallant and skilful of officers and many of the 'bravest of men whose deeds have adorned the page of history. The Government of the King of Sardinia have answered at great length, and with much detail so far as relates to Italy, but with regard to Savoy, Count Cavour has said that he reserves that as a separate despatch, and that he will treat it very soon in that separate despatch, which he will communicate to the Government of France. Then, I say again, when the Power most of all interested in this'question has not yet de cided in what way it will act, that this is not the moment in which wo should come to a precipitate conclusion. (Cheers.) But this I will say, that whatever may be said with respect to Savoy, my opinion is that the treaty of corn- . merce with France is destined, if it obtains the approbation of the Parliament of this country, to strengthen the ties of friendship between the two nations, to increase the wealth and stimulate the industry of both, and that by thus giving a greater number of the people of France an interest in the blessings of peace we shall delay, perhaps prevent that calamity of war which, I think, it is the business of every European statesman to use his utmost efforts to avert. (Loud cheers.) With these convictions I shall be ready, without ent er i ng i n t o thi s quest i on o f S avo y, to give my earnest support to the motion of my hon. friend the member for Middlesex (Mr. Byng) when ever he may bring that motion forward ; and when he does so, I trust the house will consider the question of the treaty of commerce as the main subject of our deliberations. (Cheers.) Is there anything, I ask, connected with this queetipn of Savoy to prevent our strengthening our rela- tions with France by ties of commerce ? I believe there is oh I") There was a general belief that the Government had not, for my part. I cannot understand the part which the someobject inprecipitatingmatters,and that an apprehension hon. member for Sheffield takes in this matter. I cannot was felt that, if certain negotiations were not explained imagine anything more pernicious than to indulge in invec- satisfactorily, some obstacles might arise to the completion tive on such a subject, without anydefinite object. (Cheers.) of the pending arrangement. Now, he confessed he should If we have to brine: forward at a future time the question of be too glad to see any obstacles in t e r p osed to the success of Savoy, after havin§ disposed of coals and other matters of the proposed treaty. He believed that almost every interest commerce, do not let gentlemen confine themselves to those in England was opposed to this treaty. ("Oh 1" and a general terms of solemn protest. The hon. member for Hor- laugh.) Hon. members might laugh ; but let them corn sham says we are to make a solemn protest. What is the pare the number of hon. gentlemen representing commer meaning of that ? I can understand the rest of the great cial interests who had spoken favourably of this treaty with Powers telling the Emperor of FranCe, in a manner per • the number who had spoken against it. (Hear.) The rea fectly friendly, but, at the same time, in a manner perfectly, son why the Government had carried their resolutions was firm, that this annexation would alarm Europe, and that the that those who opposed the treaty, instead of wisely uniting additional territory he would gain would be as nothing to for a common purpose, lmlm.d been cut to pieces in detail. the consequences it might entail upon him, I can under- (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman (Mr. Bright) had derstand that k ing said by the Powers of Europe in terms charged those who sat upon the Opposition benches with not which would give it due force. But I can understand pursuing a manly course in regard to this treaty. But was nothing by " a solem protest" but this—" Wo offer our re- it manly to sacrifice the honour and interests of England solution; accept it, and we es al remain on friendly terms merely for the sake of the benefits resulting from a commer with you ; refuse it, and we shall go to war 1" It does not dal treaty ? There was nothing the hon. gentleman was appear to me, therefore, that that is a centric likely to lead to not prrepared to sacrifice to the beneficial results of this peace, or one calculated to prevent the Emperor of France treaty. If that was • tha hon. member's opinion of what carrying out the object he has in view. It does not constituted a manly course it differed very considerably appear that when the hon. member (Mr. S. Fitzgerald) was from his. The hon. gentleman had taken occasion to ob in office any great concern was felt on this subject. (Hear. serve that they were sittieg in the English House of Corn keen) Lord Malmesbury was informed at the time that mow. and not in the Parliament of France ; but many there was a story going about—said to rest on authority speeches of the hon. gentleman had given him the impres of an agreement between France and Sardinia for the cession that they ought rather to he addressed to the Congress sion of Savoy. When I was told of It I said to my infer • of the United States, to the proceedings of which it was the mant he should go to Lord Malmesbury. It did appear avowed object of the hon., gentleman to assimilate their that Malmcsbury directed Lord Cowley to make inqury on debates. • the subject, but in doing so he mixed it up with several Mr. B. COC lIRANE inquired whether the motion with other matters. Lord Cowley replied that ho had asked respect to an address to her Majesty regarding the commer- Count Walewski about these several matters, and that cial treaty with France'would be brought forward on Thum- Count Walewski did not make any observation with regard day or Friday? to the territorial question. If Lord Malinesbury had been Lord J. RUSSELL—On Thursday; very serious on this subject, he would have written again to Mr. STIRLING said some very important papers bad Lord Cowley, and would not have been content with Lord been published that morning in the newspapers, which Cowley saying that. Count Walewski had made no observe- formed no part of the correspondence that had been laid on tion on the territorial question. He would have asked the table of the house. The noble lord likewise had stated of Lord Cowley, "Do they deny what is alleged with that a very important despatch might be expected from respect to Savoy ? or, if they ever entertained it, have Count Cavour in reply to that addressed to him by the they given it up 1" If I had been office and Lord Cowley French Government. As it was natural to suppose that the had written to ma that he had rpooived an unsatisfactory Sardinian Government would wish the greatest publicity to answer, I should certainly have asked him to put the bo given to their opinions, he had no doubt copies of both question again. (Hear, hear.) But this extreme zeal documents would be forwarded to this country. He wished, which we now see on the subject—a zeal which goes be- therefore, to inquire whether these papers would be laid on yond the mark, because it tends to endanger the peaceful the table before the debate was taken on the address to the relations that exist between the two countries—is a Crown—(hear, hear)—respecting the commercial treaty newborn zeal, which the hon. " gentleman did not with France. He put this question because, like many emi exhibit when he was in office. (Hear, hear.) I wish to nent members of the house, he felt unable to separate the maintain the honour and dignity of the Queen and the question of Savoy from the other matters involved in the honour and dignity of Parliament, but it does not seem to treaty. By this instrument they were about to enter inso me that irritating discussions and imputations cast upon new and unnatural engagements with the Emperor of the the French Government can in any way contribute to that French—engagements which last July the noble lord onthe object. (Hear, hear.) There was a discussion, the news- Treasury bench had several times declared ought not to be papers told us, some evenings ago in the other House of entered into with any Power whatever. As an independent Parliament on this subject. I read with great pleasure the member of Parliament, before he gave his assent to engage various speeches said to have been made on that occasion vents with a foreign Power he had a right to ask how the by the members of different parties. It appears to me that Sovereign of that State observed older and more important they expressed in a grave and solemn way their opinions . engagements with other free States of Europe. (Hear.) He upon this question, and, if the House of Commons comes to had a right to know how far the rights guaranteed by treaty give its opinion on the same question, I trust it will do so to Switzerland would be respected. On this subject the in the same spirit. (Hear.) the hon. member for Tam- papers on the table of the house gave no satisfaction what worth delighted the house the other night with his elo- ever, save that the representative of Switzerland iu Paris quence, and the language he employed was such as became was utterly unable to obtain information, and seemed to be the gravity of the subject; but I am sure th at the use of haunting the British Embassy for the sake of the intern ence which might be gained in that quarter. It was, there exciting and irritating language and casting i m p utations g on foreign Governments will add nothing to t he di g nit y of fore, but reasonable that members, by the production of those papers, should be afforded an opportanity of making this house, and nothing to the security of the p eace of Europe. (Hear.) up their minds before they were called on to vote an address Lord J. MANNERS said the noble lord had, uninten- to the Crown. (Hear, hear:), , tionally he was sure, done injustice to his predecessors in Mr. COLLIER said an appeal had been made by the noble office. The noble lord informed the house that Lord lord the member for Tiverton to his hon. friend the member Malmesbury instructed Lord Cowley to demand an explana- for Sunderland to wit / lid raw his motion,which proposed that tion from the Government of France as to the rumoured further negotiations should be entered into for the purpose annexation of Savoy ; that Lord Cowley informed him that of inducing the French Government to enter into a supple- Count Walewski gave no answer whatever to his a ppnea- mentary treaty of navigation, and to relax their laws in tion; and that Lord Malmesbury allowed the matter to rest favour of British shipping. He understood the noble lord there. Now, the noble lord, speaking from memory, had to make this appeal chiefly on the ground that to propose an forgotten the state of the facts, and had—unintentionally, addition of this kind to the address would be very incon no doubt—misstated them. The late Government did not venient ; but he understood him at the same time to say allow the matter to drop, in the way stated by the noble that if the motion was brought forward in a substantive form, a day would be given for the purpose, and he also lord, but obtained from the French Government a po sitive contradiction of the rumour that Lord Cowley had been in- collected that the noble lord would not be disposed to giv e strutted to bring before them. (Hear, hear.) He hoped, any oppositioreto the principle of the motion. On the ques therefore, that the noble lord would take the earliest oppor- tion of navigation ho considered the commercial treaty to tunity of unsaying what, from momentary forgetfulness, he be defective, and the country, he thought, had reason to had stated to tho house on this subject. (Hear, hear.) Re- complain of the stringency of the French regulations, while ferring to the question immediately before the house, he our restrictions had all been abolished. He ventured to ask could not reconcile the tone of the noble lord's speech that whether he had correctly understood the statement of the night with the one which he delivered on Friday evening, noble lord ? (Hear, hear.) The noble lord on Friday invited the co-ope- Sir H. IVILLOUGHBY said the noble lord the Secre ration of Parliament in the protest he was making against tary for Foreign Affairs gave an assurance last year that the proposed annexation of Savoy ; but on the present occa- the Emperor of the French had abstained from all intention sion he understood him to deprecate discussion in that of annexing Savoy. house, though he seemed to approve the discussion which Lord J. RUSSELL—At that time he did, as will appear took place in the other House of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) by the despatch of Count Walewski. The noble lord objected to what ho called a precipitate Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY said the despatch of Count judgment on the part of that house ; but those who, like Walewski did state a possible event in which the Emperor the hon. member for Sheffield and himself, held that the of the French, even at that time, considered the annexation commercial treaty ought not to receive the final sanction or of flayoy indiapcnaablo i -which was, in case any addition Parliament till some deliberate expression of its opinion was was made to Piedmont on the side of the Duchies or the Legations. He m ished to know whetber the noble lord had given on this most momentous of all tho questions of the day, found that the noble lord himself had laid the founda•• any objection to produce the correspondence in which that tion for the view they took in the first despatch he wrote on eventuality was described, because it was quite clear that the subject of the commercial treaty. (Hear, hear.) in that so far back as July, 1859, the Emperor of the French and despatch•the noble lord gave special prominence to the im- his Government, in some way or other, declared to Lord portance of the commercial treaty in a European and politi- Cowley that tho annexation of Savoy should follow the cal sense, though now he wished them to look at it simply occurrence of certain contingencies with regard to Sardinia. on commercial grounds. (Hear.) The noble lord said : It was quite clear that if such a distinct declaration had "Its general tendency would bo to lay broad and deep been made, the Emperor of the French had a right to say foundations in common interest and in friendly intercourse that her Majesty's Government received full warning. for the confirmation of the amicable relations that so hap- Lord J. RU SSE LL—ln answer to the question of the pily exist between the two countries ; and, while thus mak- hon. member for Perthshire with respect to certain de ing a provision for the future, which would progressively become more and more eolid and efficacious, its significance ,patches relating to France and Savoy, I have to state that at the present moment, when the condition of some p arts of no such despatch has yet arrived, and Ido not know if it the continent is critical, would be at once understood , and has ye t been written. As soon as the reply of the Sar would powerfully reassure the public mind in the various dinian Government has been communicated I shall bo ready countries of Europe." to lay it on the table of the. house, but it is impossible for After this announcement on the part of the noble lord , me to say when that may occur, or to what further cone _ how could he ask Parliament to dissever, in their conside- spondence it may give rise. The despatches of M. Thouve ration on this question, the commercial treaty and the " nel have appeared in all the newspapers, but if the house H e al condition of some parts of the Continent of Europe ?',' wish for copies they will of coursebe laid on the table. Would he deny that the condition of sonic parts of Europe Respect i ng t h e discussion of the question of annexation in was at this moment " critical ?" (Hear.) And was the 1859, there is no public despatch whatever on the subject. noble lord entitled to ask them to refrain from giving an 'Lord Cowley from time to time in his private letters said opinion on the causes that led to this critical condition of Count Walewski agreed that the annexation of Tuscany to certain portions of Europe beforo their assent was given to Sardinia was impossible, but if such a case should ever by the treaty which the noble lord said would enable France possibility occur, it would then be for Franco to consider and England to lay deep the foundation of a common in- whether her frontiers would be safe without the annexation tercet and a friendly intercourse? (Hoar, hear.) The of Savoy. But Lord Cowley ' who has acted throughout noble lord objected to what he seemed to think were tease - with great discretion, did not think proper to introduce ing repetitions of the debate on the subject of Savoy. loose conversations or casual intimations into his official Everybody would agree with the noble lord that they ought correspondence. to discuss the question in a fair and legitimate manner, but Lord PALMERSTON—I wish to explain amatter which he and those around him thought that that discussion is not clearly understood by the hon. member for Plymouth. should take precedence of the one in reference to the treaty. What I did state to the member for Sunderland was, that (Hear. hear.) if he would suffer us to discuss thwproposition of the ad- Lord H. VANE thought they would hardly accomplish dress to her Majesty, to which ho proposed to make the ad the object they all had in view, viz., to deprecate this an- dition contained in his motion, the Government could have nexation of Savoy to France, if they coupled that subject no possible objection to the opi nions which it embodied with the commercial treaty. (Hear.) Their object was to being expressedto the house ; and they might even think prevent the accomplishment of that annexation, and he that such an expression would assist them in any negotia agreed with the noble lord in thinking that much value was tion which might be made officially with France. to be attached to an expression of the opinion of Parliament The motion for postponing the orders of the day was on the subject ; but he could not countenance the idea that then withdrawn. any advantage would attend the use of violent and vitupe rative language towards the head of the French Govern ment. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with the noble lord the Foreign Secretary in thinking that if this annexation was to be prevented it must be done by the united action of Europe, and not by a single protest of our own. The people of this country were unanimous in deprecating that annexation, and he trusted it would not bo permitted. (Hear, hear,) Mr. NE WDE GATE, as an independent member, wished to point out to the Government that they ought to alter the course they had pursued. They had not adopted the line taken in 1787, because they had omitted to bring in the pre liminary resolutions which had enabled the House of Com mons of that day to consider the political bearings of that treaty, independently of the commercial and financial ques tions involved. Tho Government had, on the contrary, plunged into a Committee of Ways and Means, and the house had consequently no fair means of expressing an opinion upon the political bearings of the treaty. The hon. member for Birmingham said, " Perish Savoy I" But we were about. to enter into commercial transactions with France affecting £1,000,00 0 of our revenue, and did the Government intend to • offer whatever advantage that sacrifice of revenue entailed as a subsidy to France for the purposes now announced ? He thought the house had a right to demand a fair opportunity of stating that if we were about to make financial sacrifices, and to confer great commercial advantages upon France, it was tto ille esidise France to crush the libe rties of Savoy. (Hear, hear.) Ho had been delighted to hear the speech of the hon. and learned member for Sheilield. Somehoefrhriesnexh pressions were too severe to th e Emperor of t 7 but he rejoiced to hear an independent member vindicate the right of the British House of Commens to put its own interpretation upon its own lan g uage and its own acts. (Hear, hear.) - Mr. BENTINCK only differed from his hon. friend who had just spoken upon one point. Ho went all lengths in the opinion that the house ought to have ample time for consi dering this question of Savoy before they accepted the treaty with France. He would even go further, and say that the worst thing that could happen for the honour and happiness ofEngland was that the treaty should ever be ratified at all. He deprecated, however, the use of personal and coarse in vective. (Hear, hear.) He believed that such language only recoiled on those who uttered it, and was alike discreditable to the house and to the country it represented. (Cheers.) The Government complained that discussions of this kind were extremely inconvenient, but they had only themselves to blame for them. Ho contended that the Government had attempted to stifle discussion, and he could not admit the representations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the general interests of the country required that there should be no delay in passing these resolutions. The party represented by the hon. member for Birmingham might have a positive and pecuniary object in hurrying the treaty to a conclusion, and it was not therefore surprising that the Government should lend itself to this view. But he had very little doubt the commercial interests of the country were opposed to the measures of the Goyernment, (Cries of "Oh, CUSTOMS ACTS. lhe house again resolved in to committee on the Customs Acts. The list of articles to be made free of duty (not under the treaty) was then agreed to. and lathwood" (on which Is. ° p g er " l load o is d k d whether andrawback would be Colonel SYKES as e taon be e ltimber,evi levied), d ) , hewn, tof drawbacks, 1 lurposes, and Mr. LAING said tho paymou .. unless un had been discontinued. On t* allowed for the duty paid on stocks in baud?. der special arrangements, un eid,:il,,,be,,g,,inn. The rcoulul ti c‘o LI.L,AL ..,„ f • shipbuilding u tuu '' " t ug ber no drawbackl:daSoluntwconold and a duty of Is. a resolution rolatmgto hops was postponed and those The 9 was then ordered to report the resolution!, ono of £1 ss. per continuing the presentquartfrraotnegr_uoanit.tea sugar passed. and the house resumed. The Chairman Elx.vonTED BRITISH SPIRITS. In Committee of Ways and Means, Tho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved a resolution allowing a drawback of 2d. a gallon on raw spirits, and 3d. on rectified spirit..., British manufactured, entered for exportation. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said it was usual to print reso lutions of this kind, in order that those who took an interest in such matters might have an opportunity of being present at the discussion of them. Tho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the substance of the fesolution had been printed, and had been in the hands of members some four or five days ago; so that full notice had been given to everybody interested. The resolution was then agreed to, SAVINGS BANKS AND FRIENDLY SOCIETIES INVESTMENT BILL, - - - On the motion for the second reading of this bill, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pro ceeded to explain the objects of the bill. The law authorised savings banks, under voluntary and independent manage ment, to receive money from depositors, with conditions as to interestand other matters; and it provided that the managers should forward the deposits to an institution in London, whence they passed into the immediate custody of govern ment. The savingsbank, then, was intormediatebetween the government and the depositors, and divided the whole sub ject into two departments. With the first of these the present bill had nothing whatever to do. The subject was one of great importance, and he regretted that the recent com mittee on savings banks entirely ignored that part of the subject. It was with the government management of the funds that the bill priposed to deal. The first principle of the bill was the substitution of a real and bona,fide statement of this portion of the national debt for the present unsatisfac tory, because untrue, statement that was annually made. At present the a sets of the savings bank commissioners did not quite equal their liabilities, and a difference of opinion existed as to the cause of this. Some thought it mainly owing to the nature of the terms on which the money was received. A fixed rate of interest was allowed to depositors i t n savings banks. It followed that when the funds were high, and the rate of inte rest g enerally was low, tht ra was a great disposition to invest in savings banks, because the fixed rate of interest was something better than they were likely to obtain elsewhere ; but when the funds were low the case was reversed, and there was an inducement to call in money from the savings banks, and sales were necessary in order to procure the cash. Therefore, the normal state of these 'saving banks commissioners was A buy when the market was high and sell when the market was low. But whether or not this was the cause of the discrepancy in the accotints, the amount between the deposits and the assets was £2,000p0, 'here was no doubt that the depositors had, if not altogether a legal, yet in every ease an equitable claim for every farthing the Government had received, and this bill would give them their full legal title. It was pro . . . posed to open a book in which sho - uld be written all . the sums which the Government had received. Instead of holding this amount of stock with its varying and fluctuat ting value, the Government should cancel a great amount of the stock, and in lieu of it enter into a book which was to contain the State deposits, carry forward the capital from time to time, and so to balance the capital as to render as much as possible the real amount of the obligations of the State to the saving" banks. That was the explanation of the Ist and 2d clauses of the bill. The 3d clause had been framed upon the principle of maintaining the annual charge at somewhere where it now was. The principle was exactly analogous to the principle which now regu lated by law the unpaid dividends of the national debt. The commissioners were to retain in their hands such a sum as might be sufficient to meet any probable amount of calls. The possibility of calls extending beyond the limit wet provided for by the bill, which gave power to the commissioners 'to change the stock into marketable se curities. The general rule would be that about three-fourths of those liabilities would henceforward be represented in the sums described in the state deposit account. In the sth clause was provided another and most important limitation of the powers of the executive government. It was there provided that deficiency bills, if Exchequer Bills, might not be funded by the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt. By means of that power, whenever there was a deficiency in the pubic revenue, or in the sum appli cable to meet the Consolidated Fund charges for the coming (luutcr, it was in the power of the executive to supply that deficiency - by means not of the revenue of the year, nor of tl • funds of Parliament, but by means of monies obtained from the savings banks or friendly societies. Even in cases when the revenue of the year was sufficient for the year, yet still, From the peculiar arrangements of the Consolidated Fund, it was in the power of the executive to meet the charge by deficiency bills, and subsequently through the Commis sioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, without consulting Parliament ; and thus a large permanent addition to.the public debt of the country could be made without the knowledge or consent of Parliament. That power would be entirely done away with by the fifth clause. They now came to a set of provisions, in which it was provided that the commissioners should have a larger liberty for the in . . . vestment of those funds than they had hitherto possessed. Heretofore the power of the commissioners, as far as invest ments were concerned, was limited to Exchequer Bills and Exchequer Bonds. Now, he thought that a greater latitude ought to be given to the commissioners for the investment of those funds, provided that the further limits of such investments should be distinctly defined. He proposed to give them power to invest in other stocks issued by the authority of Parliament, such as the proprietary stock of the East India Company, in respect to which a certain amount of guarantee was given by tne legislature. And there were other more recent stocks also issued on the authority of Parliament to which the same libe,rty would extend. The commissioners were also em powered to exchange the securities under certain circum stances, which he thought it would ba better to explain when the bill was in committee. The Bth and the 9th clauses provided for the bolancing the accounts on the Bth November in each year, so as to show the real amount of the liability of the state to the depositing parties. The 11th clause provided the mode by which an absolute title would be given to the friendly societies and savings banks. It gave them in all cases an absolute claim on the securities of the state. The general effect of this measure would be to create a considerable public economy in the management of those funds. It was impossible for him at that moment ac curately to estimate the extent to which that economy would go, but recollecting that the commissioners had in their han ds' about £10,000,000, they would be empowered to cancel £31,000,000 out of that amount. By the law as it was at present fixed a certain sum per million was payable to the Bank of England,for the management of every mil lion of that money passing' through the hands of the Com missioners for the Reduction of the National Debt. When that arrangement was made it never was contemplated that the state should become possessor of those vast sums, nearly the whole of which remained without any transfer. There would thus be a saving of £3OO on every million, which would amount, in the whole, to a saving of about £9,000 or £lO,OOO a year, under the proposed arrangement. Over and above that the commissioners would realise a better income upon funds guaranteed by Parliament, although not of the nature of Parliamentary stocks nor securities of the United Kingdom. Ho thought probably in the course of two or three years the effect would be to save permanently to the country about £lO,OOO or £50,000 a year. Power was given to the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, over and above the forms of investment he had mentioned, to invest for the purpdses of the Exchequer Loan Fund. He did not intend to ask the house at that time to agree to that !art of the bill, but he thought it was worthy of considers lion whether the Government ought to become lenders of money, for even the most useful purposes, at a time when they were already in debt, when they had a fund open to them for that purpose. He believed the Exchequer Loan Fund to be of a most useful character, and one that had worked extremely well; nevertheless, he thought that the power to which he had just referred might be exercised with the greatest advantage. He had no further explana tions to offer, and would conclude by the expression of a hope that the details of the bill would secure the best atten tion of the house. (Hear.) Mr. HENLEY did not rise to offer any opposition to the second reading of the bill, or to discuss whether the mode in which the Government proposed to carry out the object in view, was the best or not. The object was an important one, and much of its efficiency must depend upon details which could only be fully and properly considered in com mittee. Those were the only observations he had to make on the subject, and as it was one on which both sides of the house could have but one interest—that of putting it on a satisfactory footing—he hoped an opportunity would be al lowed for discussing it deliberately in all its details. trusted that, pthiaotp, e i rly secured.neommit committee, the interests of The.t'ihredAbeiYPHOlNslvirtaosTh ss aici b en read a second time. VALUATION OF RATEABLE PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL. This bill as amended was considered and ordered to be read a third time. PACKET SERVICE (TRANSFER OF CONTRACTS) BILL. The bill passed through committee and was reported. MEDICAL ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. The house went into committee on this bill. The several clauses of the bill were agreed to, and the bill passed through committee. SETTLED ESTATES ACTS - (1856) AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. WHITESIDE moved the second reading of this bill. Mr. BYNG moved that the bill be read a second time that day six months. The lion, gentleman said that there was no new question. It was first introduced into Parlia ment in 1829, and the object Was to give to the promoters of the measure power to build houses on Hampstead-heath. That bill was, however, rejected, ae were also several other bills haeine• b a similar object. Believing that this measure was calculated to affect the rights and privileges of his cons stuents, he must oppose it. Mr. WITI'FESME said he'did not understand how any man who respected the rights of property could object to this bill. Some persons, however, objected to the measure on the ground that it would give Sir Thomas Wilson power to apply to the Court of Chancery to enable him to build houses on Hampstead-heath. It was suggested that if a clause wore inserted in the bill expressly preventing Sir Thomas Wilson from applying to the Court of Chancery to build houses on Hampstead-heath; that that would get rid of the objection entertained against the bill by the hon. members for the metropolis. Well, a clause of the kind was inserted in the bill, but now it was said that this clause would not prevent Sir Thomas Wilson from erecting houses in sight of Hampstead-heath, and it was upon this ground it was still objected to. He did, not, however, think the house would ttesent to the amendment which was in oppo sition to the rights of property, Mr. E. JAMES said that if an English member had brought in a bill to enclose a heath used by the people of Dublin fa- healthful enjoyment, there would be no snore eloquent opponent of the measure than the right hon. and learned gentleman the member for the University of Dublin. The bill would give the promoter of it the power to build a wall round Hasnpstead-heath. This was the eighth mea sure that had been brew ht into that house on this subject, It had also been reported against four times by the judges. The other measures had been rejected by that house, and he trusted the same result would occur in this that had taken place on former cases. Mr. ALCOCK expressed his determination to support the amendment proposed by the hon. member for Middlesex. Mr. BOU VEItIE supportedthe second reading of the bill. Lord FERMOY thought there could be no hesitation as to what was the intention of the testator, who had devised three estates, in respect to two of which he gave ample leasing and building powers, and in respect:to the third of which he abstained from doing so. It was fair to presume therefore, that on the two estates he intended that his heir should build, and on the third that he should not. The promoters of this measure took credit for not encroaching upon the actual Heath ; to which he replied, " Thank you for nothing ; you could not do so, inasmuch as the Heath itself belongs to the copyholiers, and you dare not inter fere." He objected to their oven buildijag round the nestle ssss - sts ~us useir mate rials over it ; and, if they passed this bill they would be able to build a wall right round it. As to what had been said about the metropolitan members, they had naturally an interest in all that could contribute to the health, recrea tion, and enjoyrnent.of, their constituents. The promoters of this bill endeavonred by a sidewind, by bringing 'et as a public bill what they . knew they could not pass as a pret s t o bill, to defeat the obtv ts of the testator. There was, hon. ever, no chance of i o attempt succeeding. Mr. GEORGE supported the bill, because he saw no reason why this should be made an exceptional case. Mr. ROBERT HAT BURY said this was a questionon which he need say but very little. The metropolitan mem bers represented people to whom fresh air and recreation were of the utmost importance. This was a poor mites question, and those who supported the motion opposed tie poor man's interests. The house then divided- - - Ayes Noes B6 Majority against Tho snnoundement was received with loud cheering. REPEAT. , OF THE PAPER. DUTIES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER obtained leave to bring in a bill to repeal the paper duties, which was read a first itOSCOIMON. A new writ was ordr;dio;ihiScouxdy, and the house adjourned at N minutes past 11. BIRTHS. ELTON.—On the 4th inst., at Erith, the wife of Henry Elton, Esq., of a daughter. KINLOCIL — On the 4th inst., at Southfield, Wandsworth, the wife of Charles Kinloch, Esq., of a daughter. MARRIAGES. MITCHELL—BEECROFT.—On the 3d inst., at St. Mary's, Islington, William Henry Mitchell, Esq., of her Majes ty's Customs, London, to Sarah, sister of the late Thos. Beecroft, Esq., of Milk-street, city, and Richmond Villas, Eamsbury. DEATHS. BARXER.—On the 3d inst. ) at Broadwater, near Worthing, , John Barker, Esq., aged 81. WORTLEY.—On the 3d .inst., at Overton House, Wake field, Amy Cicely, infant daughter of the Hon. Francis and Mrs. Stuart Wortley. WRIGIIT.—On. the 2d inst., in Paris, Stephen Amand Wright, Esq., late at the head of the Ordnance Deparb ment, Tower of London, and of West-hill, Wandsworth, aged 71. --- LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG , of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112, Strand, in t h e Precinct of the Savoy, in the email of y htiddletel, Tuesday, March 6, 1860.