The Sun. — London, England, 1859-03-01 00:00:00

that at this moment its i m p or t a ti on o f f ore i gn goods is thought the idea of a con s tit uency i n E ng l an d s h ou ld b e ' this—it should be num erous enoug h t o b e in d epen d en t, an d larger than that even of Newc as tl e . W e th ere f ore propose select enough to be responsible—(cheers)—and that is the that there should be a member for Hartlepool. For the same constituency her Majesty's Ministers believe will be formed reason that it is a place where the shipping and mercantile by the measure I propose to the house to-night. Having interest of the country are conspicuous, we are of opinion laid before the house the character of the elective body, it that Birkenhead ought to be represented. . Hear, hear.) becomes me to state how we propose it stall be registered, There is a part of Staffordshire which we think deserves and how it may vote. (Hear, hear.) The house is aware and requires the consideration of this ho a . It is that that, under the present system, there is a difference in the district which is called "the black country," where an im method of registration in counties and boroughs. In coun- mense distinctive industry has arisen sine , the passing of ties an elector makes his own claim to be placed on the list ; the Reform Act ; and we therefore propose that West in boroughs the list is made out by a public officer. It is Bromwich and Wednesbury shall return a member to well known that great difficulty attends the county regis- this house. I said that we had allotted only two tration • nothing proves it more than the fact that, not- additional members to South Lancashire, because we withstanding the increase in the population and wealth o f thought that there were two towns in that county whose the country, - the county registration is a decaying one. interests required to be represented in this house, and there (Hear, hear.) This must always be the case if you surround fore we recommend that members should be allotted to it with every obstacle. We propose to amend that system Burnley and Staleybridge. That will be five additional entirely—we propose, in fact, that there shall be a self- borough members. Turning now to the South of England, acting registry ; the overseer in every parish will make out we find a place in Surrey which ought to be represented— a list of owners, as well as occupiers. I believe there will be viz., Croydon ; and in the county of Kent we propose that no difficulty whatever in doing it, and clauses will be found a member should be allotted to Gravesend, a very ancient in the bill to ensure its complete accomplishment. If any town with a distinctive character, and in every sense of the one is omitted from the list, whether owner cr occupier, he word, I think, entitled to a representative. (Hear, hear.) may make his claim, and in a supplementary list his name Now, sir, I will not say we have studied the map of Eng will be inserted are d sent to the clerk of the peace and the land, we have done more than that, At this moment I de revising barrister. That is the great change we propose dare that, if you are to complete the representation of Eng with regard to registration. There are other regulations of land according to the principle which influences her Ma considerable importance, but I have still other points to jesty's Ministers—the principle that this house is to repre allude to, and, though the house has tre a t e d me with great sent, not th e numer i ca l majority, but the interest of the indulgence, I feel I must not dwell much on this head. country—l do not see any other member required to corn (Hear, hear.) Now, being registered, how is the elector to plete that representation ; and I believe that if we have vote ? We wish to put an end to all those horrible erred we have erred rather by anticipating- the destiny of scandals that ha ve o f l ate years been discussed w h at I believe will in time be great and thriving commu in the house, and the bitter feelings and controver- nities. (Hear.) Well, sir, how are these 15 members to sies raised by th e que i t i on—Are the travelling exp l llees of be supplied ? That is the question. (Hear.) They are to electors to b e p a id b y the candidates ? (Cheers.) s there be supplied in the spirit of the English constitution. Adopt o mode of terminating for ever what may be a scandal, ing a policy which has been recognised on previous occa and is always a controversy. (Hear, hear.) When we are alone, and which for two centuries has been adopted by the reconstructing the constituent body of the country, and Sovereigns and Parliaments of England—assuming, in completing its representation in this house, is it not the which I hope lam correct, that it is the opinion of this fitting occasion to make an effort, not merely to improve the house that its members ought not to be increased-7(cheers) registration, but to ensure the registered vote being given in we must find the means of representing these new interests 1 the simplest and safestmanner we can devise? (Cheers.) We as means have been found before under similar circum purpose, in the first place, th a t the number of polling places stances—(a laugh)—and in the same constitutional spirit. throughout th e country shall be greatly increased. (Hear.) It is sometimes said that there are constituencies in this We propose th a t in every parish containing 200 electors country so small that it is an indefensible anomaly to per there shall be a polling place. (Hear, hear.) If a parish mit them to exist. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) I en ti re l y does not contain 200 e l e ctors, then it will form one of a disagree with the gentleman who che ere d me. Ido not group reaching that number, which will have a polling think that better arguments can be urge d i n favour of a place. Every man who votes will vote at the place where constituency of 1,000 than one of 600, an d I should be he resides, wherever his qualific a ti on may be. To effect very much surprised if the honourable gentleman, ingeni that object there will not only be a qu a lifi ca ti on register, ous as he may be, could urge them. There are, it is true, but a residence register. (Hear, h ear .) It ma y be sa id some constitue nies which certainly cannot be defended these additional polling places will be a great expense to if the numerical majority i s t o govern England ; candidates ; but the bill provides that candidates shall no t but theree the _ are some very small constituencies which bear the expense of the m . (Ch eers. ) If l e f t to th e can di- miser p e talon f efeerm a very important part in the represen date the expense would be very heavy ; if left to the country principks up on w hi c h the English consti it will be very little. Where there is a petty session there tution is founded,. which are still upheld in this house is generally a police-station, or a room that may be hired, len(' still revered in this country. (Hear, hear.) I will and there are p rov i s i ons i n the bill which will satisfy hon. take an instan ce . In all those rattling schemes of disfran gentlemen that this can be e ffected i n a reasona bly c h ea p chisement—(a laugh) —with which we were favoured dur manner. If a man chooses to vote as he always has votesf, ing the autumn, when every gentleman thought that he he may go to the polling pl a ce of his district and do so; could sit down at his table and reconstruct the venerable but we propose also to allow the elector to vote, though he fabric of the English constitution, if there was one point may not choose to go to the poll, that he may vote by what more than ano th er on which those Utopian meddlers agreed, are called polling papers. (Hear, hear.) This is not an if there was one enemy which they all agreed, determined, experiment, or a thing adopted for the first time ; there is and resolved to hunt to death, it was the borough of Arun nothing empirical about it. For many years the people of del. (A laugh.) There every vice of the system seemed to this country have been familiar with it ;in the election of be congregated—a small population, a small constituency, Poor Law guardians the votes are taken by voting papers; absolute nomination. Well, now, sir, that is very well for the Metropolis Act, recently passed by the house, provides autumnal agitation; but let us see how it practically works that the elections under it may be taken by voting papers, in the ancient and famous society of which it is our pride What is the result of giving this supplementarypower to a and privilege to be members. There are 900,000 Roman constituency ? Why it renders the expression of public Catholics in England, scattered and dispersed in every town opinion more complete than under the existing system. Of and county—of course a minority. What means have they the constituent body under the Poor Law Act 90 per cent, of being represented in this house, especially in the pre records its votes ; but, in the great electoral body of Eng- sent, as I deem it, unfortunate state of feeling in England land called on to elect the representatives of the British with regard to our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects ? (Hear, people, and form this famous House of Parliament, that hear.) There is one English Roman Catholic member of affects the opinion of the wo r ld, an d possesses the confidence Parliament, a man who bears a name that will ever be hon of the most toiling millions that were ever eongrgated in a oured by England and Englishmen—(hear, hear)—and nation—how is that high privilege treated ? Not more practically, and in the spirit of the English constitution, than 50 or 60 per cent. of that constituency records its votes the 900,000 Roman Catholics of England, men of ancient in the performance of that solemn duty. (Hear hear.) But lineage and vast possessions, whose feelings all must re it may be said voting by polling papers,maylead to persona- spect even if they do not agree with them in every particu tion; as if there was no personation now I In the history lar, find a representative in the borough of Arundel. That of man there never was any improvement proposed which is the practical working of our constitution. (Cheers.) You the interests and passions of some would not distort ,• we talk of the small numbers of the constitue nc y o f A run d e l . believe the ele c t ors can vote by polling papers without 900,000 Roman Catholics 1 Why, it is more than the West personation, and in an honest and satisfactory manner. Riding of Yorkshire; it is double the Tower Hamlets. Sir, I shall always go myself to the hustings—(a laugh)— (Laughter and cheers.) Therefore, sir, we are not to say, but if a ma n w i s h es to vote for his member by a polling because a constituency is small, that is the source from paper instead of going to the hustings, I see no objection to which we must inevitably draw the constitutional means of Ma being allowed to do so. All he will have to do is to completing the representation of England. The house will write to the public officer and ask for a polling paper, the do me the justice of observing that by the measure which, form of which will be found in the schedule of this bill. A on the part of the Government, I have placed before them Polling paper will be sent to him by the public officer in a to-night, whatever arrangements may be made with exist registered letter, and therefore you will have evidence of its ing boroughs to find means of effecting the represent a ti on o f transmission. He will sign this paper in the presence of interests not represented without increasing the numbers two witnesses, one of whom must be a househ.older, and of this house, no man will be disfranchised. By adopting then retu rn it t o th e pu bli c off i cer, also in a registered letter. this principle of identity of suffrage, even if a man loses Thus we shall have evidence of its transmission both ways; the member who has represented his borough he still may and the polling paper will be opened before proper authori- go to the poll or send his voting paper; and, under all cir ties, and the man's vote will be duly recorded. I believe a cumatances, that is a compensation which was never offered vote given by this instrumentality may be honestly and pro - in previous schemes of Parliamentary reform. (Hear, hear.) perly given, and that there will be no more deception or per- We do not feel it our duty to recommend to Parliament sonation practised under this machinery than under the that any borough represented by a single member, like open system which at present prevails. But lest there Arundel, should lose that member. (Hear. hear.) Wewant, should be any personation, we provide against it by making in order to complete the representation of the country, 15 it a misdemeanour under this bill. I have now placed seats in this house. To procure those seats we must fix on before the house—much more briefly than I ought, perhaps, some rule that mustnecessarily be arbitrary. The only con to have done, but they will pardon me if, in consequence of dition that the house has a right to make, and which all the largeness of the theme, I may omit some of the details should be glad to concede, is that that rule should be fairly which will be found in the bill—l have Bow placed before applied. In the last census, if you throw your eye over its you the leading features of what we propose to do with the Parliamentary results, you will find there are 15 boroughs registration of the constituent body, and the method in represented by two members each, and the population of which their votes shall be taken. I have next to touch which is under 6,000. Only 15 boroughs? It will be an upon a certainly not less important part of my subject. In admirable opportunity for a display of patriotism (laughter) attempting to deal with the question popularly designated —an opportunity seldom offered by the circumstances and Parliamentary Reform, her Majesty's Government have occasions of society—to the members of those places. (A endeavoured, as far as their intelligence could guide them, laugh.) I have no personal feeling on this subject. Ido to offer a proposition to the house which, consistently with most sincerely and ardently hope that when there is a new their conception of the principles upon which the English Parliament we may all meet again (a laugh) ; but if these constitution is founded, should secure for the country a 15 boroughs now represented by two members each, though complete representation. One of our first considerations with a population under 6,000, would consent, without our was, of course, the electoral ',body, upon which I have using force to compel them, to make this concession (laugh treated at such length. But a complete representationdoes ter) we should complete the representation of the country not depend merely upon the electoral body, however varied according to the principles that I believe to be those upon you may make its elements, however homogeneous its which our representation ought to rest. (Hear, hear.) character. It also depends upon whether, in your Therefore, Sir, in the bill which aeo n w ill be in the hands system, the different interests of the c oun t r y are ade- of members there are provisions that the 15 boroughs in quately represented. Now, discarding for ever that Fin- question shall in the next Parliament be represented by ciple of property upon which it has been my duty to only one member each. (Cries of Name, name.) The house make some remarks, accepting it as a truth that the func- lam sure, will consider my feelings. (A laugh.) I shall tion of this house is to represent not the views of a nume- take care that every gentleman, I hope to-morrow morning rice' majority —not merely the gross influence of a predomi- will receive the schedule containing the names of these nant property, but the varied interests of the country, we boroughs ; but I see no necessity, while I think it would be have felt that on this occasion it was incumbent on us dili- invidious to mention them now. (Cries of " No, no," and gently and even curiously to investigate the whole of Eng- "Name.") I regret to be compelled to introduce a question land and see whether there were interests not represented which may become of a personal character (a laugh), but as in this house whose views we should wish to be heard the house insists on it I must read the names of boroughs here, and whether the general representation of the country which, at presented represented by• two members, are in could be matured and completed. In undertaking this future to return only one each. They are Honiton, Thet office it must not be supposed that we have been animated ford, Totnes, Harwich, Evesham, Wells, Richmond, by a feeli ng th a t we would only do that which the hard Marlborough, Leominster, Lymingtoneudlow, An necessity of th e case requ i red. Had we been so influenced dover, Knaresborough, Tewkesh ury, and ' Malden. (Cheers it is possible we might have brought forward a measure and laughter.) I have now, sir, touched upon all those that would have served the purpose of the moment, and topics which it was my duty to lay before the house this yet left seeds behind us which might have germinated in evening. I have omitted many things that I ought to have future troubles, controversies, and anxieties. We have said, and I have no doubt I may have said some things that been sincerely desirous to adapt the scheme of 1832 to the I ought to have omitted. Such errors are inevitable in England of 1859, and to induce the house to come to a treating so large and so various a theme, but lam sure this general settlement, whether as regards the exercise of the house will remember that there will be many opportunities franchise or of the direct representation in this house of the for me to enter into necessary explanations, and will treat various interests of the community, which should take this an occasion like the present with generous forbearance. question for a long period out of the agitating thoughts of (Hear, hear.) Sir, having described as clearly as I could men. We have sought to offer to the country, in the hope the principal provisions of bill to the house, I shall say that it will meet with its calm and serious approval, what no more. I believe that this is a measure wise, prudent, we believe to be a just and—l will not say a final, but— and adequate to the occasion. I earnestly hope the house conclusive settlement. Finality, sir, is not the language may adopt it. I believe, sir, it is a Conservative measure, of politics. (Cheers.) But it is our duty to propose an using that epithet in no limited or partial sense, but in the arrangement which, as far as the circumstances of the age highest and holiest interpretation of which it is capable. I in which we live can influence our opinion, will be a con- can say sincerely that those who framed this measure are elusive settlement. And we have laid it down as our task men who reverence the past, who are proud of the present, to consider, without any respect to persons, what we and who are confident of the future. Such as it is, I now honestly think are the interests in the country that are not submit it for the consideration of the House of Commons, represented, but which we should at this moment counsel convinced that they will deal with it as becomes the repre the house to add to their numbers. I venture to divid e sen t a ti ves o f a w i se and an understanding people. (Loud this branch of the subject into the cases where there is a and general cheers.) The right hon. gentleman concluded want of representation and those where a representation by moving for leave to bring in the bill. exists, but not an adequate one. We find both of these Mr. BAXTER (who was at first imperfectly heard, from circumstances characteristic of the West Riding of York- the noise occasioned by members leaving the house) said shire and South Lancashire. There there are distinct inte- that, under the circumstances of the case, he would not rests which are not represented in this house, and some detain the house many minutes. He thought that the right also which are very inadequately represented. I mean by hon. gentleman had not sufficiently met the requirements the term inadequately represented, to say that there are of Scotland and Ireland. The right hon. gentleman the several distinct interests, while the present members are Chancellor of the Exchequer had himself furnished the returned to this house by the , predominant interest ; the strongest argument in answer to hi s own s t a t ement. He other interests, which are considerable - enough to challenge had stated that with regard to the metrop o li s th ere was and.eee claim our consideration, being virtually unrepresented.c scarcely a member in the ho use w h o h a d no t an i nterest ; e Propose,st speak i f ding of Yorkshire four members. Here I will not sa id that there was scarcely a memb er w h o h a d not some Populatio n or property, because we are not about interest, direct or indirect, in either Ireland or Scotla n d. to offer ° a population lomr°position to the house formed merely upon Scotland claimed to be put upon terms of perfect equality territory 70 In t r e TertY. In the West Riding we find a great with England and Ireland, and she claimed 19 addition a l We find another in leetigth, which is purely agricultural. representatives. Was it right, he asked, that there! should of them important enoughgren division studded with towns, none be no county in Scotland with more than one member ? enough to be represente, or having distinctive interests Take the great county of Lanark, for instance, was it fair ing a wonderful hive of indruettin their aggregate conatitut- that it should only have one representative ? The right still another portion of the ;as and where and there is hon. gentleman had not said a single word with regard to blended and varied interests. NY Riding there are Scotland, and he left the house in perfect darkness as to add four members to the West RiclinProTse' therefore to e the mode in which he intended to deal with the representa divide it not according to a mathematicalorkshire, and to tion of that portion of the empire. Looking at the measure to population, but according to its separa e interests. This t arrangement as of the Government he complained that it was defective, at principle of division will be in accordance (Heariie with the local least in the sense that it omitted all mention of either demarcations of wapentakes. Ireland or Sootland; He did not believe that the measure be the test, the property here is identical for owever population the o p r i•operty of If property would prove a settlement Of the question; but that, on the varied is the number of theircontrary, it would prove the commencement of a great os e e f that there the wardentakes is as follow s :—`Y e „Z otilo) national agitation, and perhaps lead to an outbreak of feel should be ablest Yorkshire with a population 4i 2 1 ,r0 and ing which neither the Government nor the house were Are a property of £963,000. That is the divisio n n in pared to meet. (Hear, hear.) He was in favour of a£s find Keighley, Dewsbury, and a score of towns wwhiedbl. you franchise in towns, as he considered such a measure would cannot summon here, but which, if you adopt these you let in a large and des erv i ng c l ass t o a s h are i n the repro ciples for your constituent body, would be v o ti ng for eT u rn il; sentation. The bill might pl ease some p ar ti es i n the house, members, and therefore they ought to vote w i t h the di-4 but he confessed he was dissatisfied with it, and he feared tinct interest with which they are connected. W. propose it would tend to fan the flame of agitation now smoulder that there shall be a North-west Yorkshire with a. p ope _ ing through the country. He begged to move the amend ment of whi c h h e had given notice, namely, "Th a t it i s I lation of 129,000, and a South Yorkshire with one o f expedient to consider the laws relating to the representa -225,000. We propose these divisions, instead of an endless !?' representa tion of the people in England and Wales and Scotland and division and subdivision without names, which is little in Ira not separately but in one measure." (Bear, hear.) . from the chair. _ ll B J. OGILVY seconded the amendment, which was harmony with our habits, and because these are the names which are used in the locality. With regard to the property whether he of these divisions, varying as they do in interest and popu- 1-• Sir C. LEWIS protord as t ted ma th k e e an Ch y a ar ne r e an llo g r lation, its amount is almost identical in each. In one -- . of of the Exchequer arrangement with respect them the assessment to the county rates is £963,000, in to the four v another £809,000, and in the third £BOB,OOO. We propose St. Albans; whetherats for the boroughs of Sudbury and to add two members to South Lancashire—that a to any unrepresented laces he intended to assign those seats to say, we propose to distribute the county of Lancashire the number of members of thewould diminish to that extent into three divisions. One will be the hundred of Mr. lIEADLAM said, in house ? West Derby, and one the hundred of Salford. These of the bill, he of course reservedeo t enting to the introduction divisions are the same as those proposed by the noble principlet should appear desirable,ofendeavouringohimself the fullest right, lord the member for London, except that one of the of disfranchisement oyen;i to extend the hundreds of North Lancashire was inserted in West Derby the right hon. gentleman. He would ' e limit proposed by in his bill, and it now remains with North Lancashire. and decided opposition to deprive per re his determined This will be an addition of six to the number of count y for counties in respect of property withallfii)ewho now voted members. There is another county to which we propose to county suffrage. There was a sort of tacit understanding of their add two members—that is the county of Middlesex, which that the county representatives should be selecte from We e Propose to divide. By dividing Middlesex the claims of some dozen or 20 families, and, generally spealdn K nsington and Chelsea and Hammersmith, and a hundred were the sons of noblemen resident within their re g' they respecti ve counties urged ao in this house, will , be provided for. They will form With the exception of South Durham, and one or two othe; irtl onth Middlesex, while the distinctive interests of districts, the county members belonged exclusively to this theother Portion of the County the northern division, willand he saw no reason for endeavo • also be represented in this' small class, These are all the addi- render that class still more restricted and exclusive by di e lions that we propose tomake house. had hitherto exercised the fran count ies—eight mer e e eie to the representation of the franchising persons who the attention of the h It is now, Sir, my duty to call chile in counties. He thought, also, . that it was equally house to those which, because of voting in boroughs upon they possess' distinct interests ' whichplaces objectionable to confer the right sensed in this house, ought, in - 40s. freeholders. The effect of such a measure would be represented here. The first place our opinion, to be distinctly i mme di a t e ly apparent in the small nomination boro.ughs. ought to be represented in the - which, in our °pillion, H e was , however desirous that the bill should be intro town of Hartlepool and its im House e of Commons is the duced, and that it , should receive full and fair consderation, m rate district.positson he (Hear.) There is no place in England more de e rand so far from him offering it any factious op, energy of its inhabitants, its rapid pro inguished by the would do all in his power to render it a complete and satis peas, and th ter of its industry. (Hear.) In North Durham theree charac- factory measure. . • great towns which are represented, and there are t are four Mr. DODSON expressed a wish that the Chancellor of members ; in South Durham there aretwo county o county members the Exchequer would inform the house by what number he and no town which is represented. I will not vell o thecalculated the county voters would be diminished if, accord population of Hartlepool ; T will not rest the grantin g '''. W t ing to his proposal, those freeholders who had now a vote for member on that basis, though the population is ve r y con _ a county in respect of property situated within a Parliamen siderable, upwards of 30,000; bit rrest it upon tho r a pi s t Yax borough were taken out of the list of county voters ; do rebel of itmasideralgo liatig§try i ya 4 tk9 wry A c t 403 whether a freeholder now 1144 E, aOh trawl:lL%) within a Parliamentary borough, but not resident within the borough, would have the same right of voting for the borough as if he were resident. There was also a third point on which he wished to receive some information from the right hon. gentleman—namely, how he proposed to deal with the case of a person who held two properties within a Parliamentary borough, one of which at present entitled him to a vote for that borough, and the second of which enabled him to vote for the county Lord DUNCAN said he was desirous of ascertaining from the Lord Advocate when the Government intended to introduce a bill for the purpose of amending the repre sentation of Scotland. Mr. BLACKBURN 'thought the discussion had been considerably complicated by the amendment which the hon. member for Montrose had proposed, and expressed a hope that the hon. gentleman would withdraw it until some more fitting opportunity. Colonel SYKES said he deeply regretted the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have thought proper to exclude Scotland from the operation of his bill, inasmuch as he could not help regarding it as unwise and impolitic to take a course which might tend to destroy that general commu nity of feeling and interest between one portion of the king dom and another which it was so desirable to promote. The right hon. gentleman had not done well in making Scotland an alien. Mr. KINNAIRD joined in this appeal to the hon. mem ber for Montrose to withdraw his amendment. Mr. VANCE thought it would be impossible to mix up, as had been suggested, the representative system of the United Kingdom in one general scheme. Mr. CLAY trusted the hon. membor for Montrose would not press his amendment to a division. He wished to ask the right hon. gentleman whether a. calculation had been made of the number of voters who would be ad mitted to the franchise wider the different qualifications which had been described. It was proposed that in counties the cost of polling places and other expenses should be borne by the county rate, and this was a very admirable provision. (Hear.) But was there not to be a similar . provision in boroughs ? (Hear.) Surely what was proper in the one case was equally proper in the other. It might be urged that these expenses were much less in boroughs than in counties, but he could only say that at one uncontested election he paid more than £4OO for the ex penses of the sheriff, hustings, polling clerks, and so on. Mr. BAXTER said that in consequence of the appeal made to him from both sides of the house he should with draw his motion. (Hear, hear.) After a few remarks from Sir H. Willoughby and Mr. C. Bruce, Mr. CRAUFORD protested against the cavalier treat ment which Scotland had experienced this evening, and was surprised at the insolent silence which had been preserved respecting the Scotch representation. Mr. STEUART said that, taking population into account, the counties in Scotland were more inadequately repre sented than the boroughs. He wished to bring under the notice of the Lord Advocate the right of the Scotch uni versities to return members. (Hear, hear.) Sir J. OGILVY was surprised that the right hon. gen tleman had made no reference to Scotland and to Ireland in his statement, having distinctly understood from what took place on a previous evening that it was his intention to do so. of,:and of the seats taken away—with regard to the increase in the number of polling places, and the mode of voting by polling papers—l wish to give no opinion whatsoever; but this I should say upon the whole question, that unless you are prepared to give more general satisfaction to the country—unless you mean to make a more effectual change —it would be better to make no change at all. (Loud cheers.) I can well understand that the country could bear very well going on for a time discussing these matters with out any change in the present mode of voting ; but what I do not understand is that Parliament should offer to the country, or rather that there should be inflicted by Parlia ment upon the country, a bill changing the representation with all the qualities of invasion about it—with a great deal of change and a great deal of disfranchisement—but includ ing not the slightest provision in favour of the honest and hardworking man. (Ministerial cries of Oh ! oh followed by opposition cheers.) Unless you give satisfaction—not to everybody—(a laugh)—because somebody must be dis appointed—but unless you give satisfaction to those who have a right to be satisfied, depend upon it your bill will only be the signal of a great agitation. (Cheers.) It will produce a great,dealmore of discontent than of contentment. I shall consider the bill when it comes in. I shall see whe thOr its provisions agree with the statement of the right hon. gentleman. As the matter at present stands it does not appear to me to be an improvement upon the state of the representation—(cheers)—but above all, it does not appear to me to be a Conservative measure. I can well understand a Conservative Minister saying, " This question of repre sentation has been settled, and we do not propose to change it until something shall be produced which shall appear to us to improve the present state of things ;" but that a Con servative Ministry should produce a great measure of dis franchisement, extending to 90,000 or 100,000 people, and refuse to admit the working classes to the franchise, passes my, comprehension. (Loud cheers.) Mr. ROEBUCK.—Change, sir, is of itself an evil. (A laugh.) Change in legislation is only justifiable when the change is to be a better state of things. Now, my charge against the proposal of the right hon. gentleman is that it is a change which leads to a worse state of things. (Oh, oh, and cheers.) The right hon. gentleman started upon a strict principle, which—he will, I hope, forgive me for saying so —I cannot possibly understand. He said he was about to base the representation of the people, not upon population, not upon wealth, but upon their interests. Now, I want to know what is the meaning of their interests. (Hear.) He says he is going to give certain towns a certain number of members, and also to disfranchise a certain number of towns; and upon what principle does he begin ? Why, he disfran chises 15 boroughs that have not 6,000 inhabitants, thereby making population his ground for disfranchisement. (Cheers.) Now, my notion of representation is this,—that the representative body is a watchman upon the Government. Government has certain powers, and those powers would be applied to mischief unless the representative body watched over this Government. But how shall we prevent the re presentative body themselves from doing wrong ? Why, by making them amenable to the whole people, or those who represent the whole people. And how can you have any body representing the whole people who have not all the passions, all the interests, all the feelings of the people whom they represent ? Well, then, the constituent body is this body, and you say you will give the franchise to a certain class, but you will give it to nobody else. Why was the Reform Bill of 1832 brought in by the noble lord in 1831 ? It was brought in because the power of government in this country was held by one class—namely, by the landed gentry. (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman himself said the object of that bill was to give power to the middle classes. And so it did give power to them. Recollect the conduct of the working classes on that occasion. (Cheers.) What did they say? They said, " The bill brought in by the noble lord will not give us power, but we have such confidence in you, our fellow countrymen of the middle classes, that we will aid you to beat down the opposition of the landed aristocracy, and enable you to gain the franchise for yourselves." Without the working classes on that occasion there would have been no Reform Bill. (Hear, hear.) They behaved in a way that I shall never forget.' They behaved in a way that the middle classes of England ought never to forget. (Cheers.) And now, sir, I appeal in the name of the working classes of this country to the middle classes of England, and I say to them—ln 1832 you gained your power by the aid of the working men, and I call upon you as earnest, as honest, as generous men now not to neglect the interests of those by whom you were aided on that occasion; (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman's bill will not give one iota of power to the working classes of this country. (Cheers.) It is a bill of disfranchisement, and not of enfranchisement. It disfranchises freeholders in towns, but gives no power to any body in boroughs. I will suppose the case of the town which I have the honour to represent. I have no doubt that in that town there are many thousands of county voters. Every man of them will be disfranchised as a county voter, without being compensated by a vote for the town. Therefore your bill confers nothing upon him, but takes away from him his county franchise. (Cheers.) And what will that do ? Why, it will enhance the power of the landed gentry. (Cheers.) And that is the object of this bill. Now, I tell the right hon. gentleman I, and many on this side of the house, with the full censent of our consti tuents, have given the Government a complete and unvary ing support, but sure I am that 24 hours will not pass over my head before I receive statements from my constituents that, with their consent, this support shall not be conti nued. (Loud cheers.) And why so ? We have given the right hon. gentleman and his friends our support, because we thought that they would see their own position and the position of the country, that they would apply the power which we maintained for them to the good government of this country. But in place of that generous and liberal mode in which I thought the Government would act, they are now bringing in a bill for the purpose of enhancing the power of the gentlemen behind them. (No, no.) The right hon. gentleman has thought only of his friends behind him ; he has not thought of those by whom he and his friends have been supported and kept in place. (Ministerial cries of " Oh, oh 1") lam speaking out. (A laugh.) The right hon gentleman knows as well as I do that by the generous support he has received from this side of the house he has been maintained in his present position, and looking at the bill as explained by the right hon. gentleman—and I can only judge of it by his explana tion—l say emphatically that every stage of it must be op posed, steadfastly opposed, by every friend of the people in this house. (Cheers.) Mr. BRIGHT—In the common affairs of life we gene rally find that when men undertake to do that for which they are not fitted, either by nature or by inclination, they do not generally succeed very well. (Laughter and cheers.) The right hon. gentleman, I dare say, could have drawn a much better bill for the reform of the representation, but he hap pens on this occasion to represent a party which has always consistently opposed any extension of political power to the people. (Cheers.) I have regretted very much that he and his friends have consented to open this question and to make a pretence of settling it. I think there was some show of reason when they chated a late eminent statesman with doing wrong in undertaking matters which his opponents ought to have undertaken, but in his case he always ad mitted that he was thoroughly convinced of the new prin ciples he had adopted. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman and his friends have never yet expressed to us clearly anything by which we could gather that they have undergone anything like a real conversion. Ido not think it possible, indeed, with what I will call the unacquaintance of the hon. gentleman opposite with the opinions prevailing in the towns of this country upon the question, that they could be expected to bring in or support a measure such as the country expects from the Government that undertakes a bill for the reform of the representation. Who has I asked them for this . bill ? (Hear.) I ha4Te never heard any gentleman upon that (the Ministerial) side remon strate with his leaders because they were not anxious or zealous for reform. I never heard any of their sup porters in the country arguing at public meetings for a change in the representative system. I have never seen in their newspapers leading articles in favour of Parliamen tary Reform. In point of fact, as far as hon. gentlemen opposite are concerned, if they did not think that the exi gencies of party required it, they would have preferred that there should be no Reform Bill at all. (Hear, hear.) And that is precisely the position they ought to have taken up if they thought it good for the country. But there is a class in the country—l will not say a class, but a large portion of the people—who do and have asked, consistently and incessantly, for 25 years for an amendment of the Re fern Bill of 1832. And what has been the especial grievance of which they complain ? Have they not stated unanimously that, so far as regards the great portion of the population of the United Kingdom, the Reform Bill was so framed as to exclude them from the enjoyment of the fran chise ? (Hear, hear.) They have said that those who earn weekly wages do not, for the most part, live in houses of the value of £lO, and therefore to fix the franchise at £lO was to fix a line which necessarily excluded them, and made them, to quote the words of the right hon. gentleman, "pariahs." The Reform Bill placed the great bulk of the working classes in that position. Ido not complain of that bill, but I should have the utmost contempt—no, I will not say contempt, but I should be utterly hopeless of the work ing classes of this country if I thought that they would re main content under a general exclusion like that. (Cheers.) In obedience to the great call of the unenfranchised, whom we represent, you propose a bill, and your newspapers have told us that they latterly have become reformers, and that " the bread was to be taken out of the mouth," as the phrase was, of the noble lord the member for the City of London, by the measure of the Government. Well, the bill comes in, and when it goes to-morrow morning into every part of the United Kingdom, every one of these working, toiling, slaving men who are paying taxes, and performing the other duties of a citizen, will see that as he was left an outcast by the measure of 1832, so he must remain an outcast still by the bill of 1859. (Cheers.) What are the modes by which the right hon. gentleman proposes to add to the franchise ? He does not even pretend that they will be modes by which the working classes will be admitted to the franchise. (Hear.) First of all he admits every man who is a lodger and pays Bs. a week. That does not refer to the working classes. (Hear, hear.) Then every gra d ua t e o f a un i versity. Very few of them can be considered in England as belonging to the working clasSes. (A laugh.) The ministers of reli gion, to whom votes are to be given, as a body have votes already, and any pretence of introducing them into the bill is merely a pretence and nothing better. (Hear.) Then come the gentlemen of the law, and the gentle men w h o practise medicine • but the right hon. gentleman i s very careful not to admiti the latter unless they are registered. There might be poison in the vote, such is the rigidity with which unregistered persons are excluded. Then come the schoolmasters who hold certificates from the Committee of Privy Council for Education ; but why should there be any exclusiveness of this nature ? Are there no schoolmasters to whom the right hon. gentleman might have extended the right of voting but those gentlemen who have competed for certificates ? (Hear.) Why, I should be ashamed to come before my countrymen and offer a franchise of this trifling, this insulting character. (Cheers.) Then comes personal property. Those who derive £lO a year from property in vested In the funds, Bank Stock, in India Stock, and rail way stock, and those who have £6O in the savings-bank, are to have a vote. To be original, the right hon. gentle man has departed from the sum fixed by the noble lord ('I. Russell), who settled upon £5O, and even in this small matter, there is an abstinence of that, as we thought, in sufficient liberality which marked the bill of the noble lord. Now, look at this savings -bank question, Let the house imagine some young man who has saved £6o—and there are thousands of them, I hope, in the country—and who has put it into a savings bank. If anything should hap pen to him—if a parent should fall ill, or what would be a happier thing, if he should think of entering into the marriage state—he withdraws the £6O and furnishes a house of £6 or £7 a year rental. By this step he adds to the ties which bind iim to his country—he has additional reason for the love of order and obedience, but by this bill ho cuts away his franchise, and is put into the claee of outcasts, (Hear.) AU these Amoy frPadtins The LORD ADVOCATE said he had refrained from answering the appeals which had been made to him, not with any idea of showing disrespect to the house, but simply in order that he might have an opportunity of re plymg at once to all the questions which were addressed to him. He did not think the house would expect him to enter at present into any discussion of the Reform Bill for Scotland ; but he assured the hon. member for Montrose (Mr. Baxter) that it was the intention of the Government to introduce such a measure, and that it would be based on the general principles which had been announced as applicable to England. (Hear, hear.) Everybody knew that the laws and institutions of Scotland differed in a cer tain degree from those of England, and therefore there must be a difference in details ; but the leading features of the two bills would be the same. With reference to this Subject, he hoped Scotch members would not assume, from anything which had passed this evening, that there was to be no increase of representation for Scotland. (Hear, hear.) He could only say, on behalf of the Government, that they would endeavour to do justice to Scotland ; but if Scotland was not fairly treated, he certainly knew no country more capable of asserting her claims to justice. (Hear, hear, and a laugh Mr. JOHN LOCKE, as a member for one of the large constituencies which had not been treated with very great deference by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, expressed his opinion that those constituencies would not think them selves fairly treated by this bill when they found in it no provision for the extension of the suffrage in boroughs. The right hon. gentleman had dealt with this question en tirely as if it affected counties only ; and while he had ex tended the franchise in counties he proposed to introduce into the borough constituencies an element which would entirely alter their present character, and render them much more liable to landed and aristocratic influence. Mr. NEWDEGATE admitted the claims of Scotland to an extended representation, both on the grounds of pro perty and population, but contended that this claim was in ferior to that of the English counties. Mr. W. J. FOX, while agreeing in two principles laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer—that all interests should be represented, and that the defects of the Reform Act of 1832 should, as far as possible, be remedied—entered his protest against this bill as not carrying out either of them. (Hear, hear.) It did net provide for the emancipa tion of the working classes, which was one great deficiency of the Reform Act of 1832. There was no reason why Par liament should be afraid to trust the working classes. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had very justly observed, that a man who lived in a £lO house in a county was just as likely to be a loyal subject and to exercise the franchise pro perly as a man who lived in a £2O or a £5O house, and so in a town a £5 householder or a £2 householder was just as likely to be a trustworthy voter as a £lO householder. (Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL said—l am quite ready to admit that the Government could not propose a bill on the subject of the representation of the people without great difficulty. I am quite willing to admit, also, that it is very difficult for those who hear a plan proposed for the first time to judge of its details until they have had some little time to con sider them. But there are two points of the right hon. gen tleman's statement upon which I have long thought, upon which I require no time to make up my mind, and upon which the right hon. gentleman's statement has, I own, filled me with very great apprehensions. The first of these points is what he stated with regard to freeholders who have now the right of voting for counties. (Hear, hear.) If I understood the right hon. gentleman, these freeholders are no longer to vote for the county, but are to be deprived of that right, or are to be given, instead, that which they may or may not value—viz., the privilege of voting for the borough in which they may reside. Now, sir, as it appears to me, this is a very great and perilous innovation. (Hear, hear.) This provides for the extinction of a right of voting belonging to a number of from 90,000 to 100,000 persons who have enjoyed that right during a period of 400 years. (Hear, hear.) It is proposed, without any consent of theirs, without any inquiry, to deprive them of that right of voting by a summary Act of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) But, sir, further than that, so far from considering this as one of the defects of the present representation which required a remedy, it has always appeared to me a very great advan tage. (Cheers.) That there should be a mixture of the towns and counties ; that there should be not only the landed gentry, with their tenants and the workpeople de pendent on them who may have small freeholds, voting for counties, but that there should be persons engaged in trade in towns who should come among the great body of free holders in order to choose persons to represent the whole community—has always appeared to me one of the benefits of the present system of representation. This is not an opinion formed yesterday or to-day, because at the time of the Reform Act, when certain peers were willing to subscribe to the Reform Act on certain conditions, and one of those conditions was that freeholders who lived in towns should henceforth be confined to towns, I declared plainly to Lord Grey that if the bill came back with that amend ment I would propose the rejection of that amendment, and would risk the whole fate of the Reform Bill on that sole amendment. (Cheers.) With regard to many of these persons the act will be one of entire disfranchisement, be cause, as the law stands at present, if a man lives in a £lO house as occupier he has a right to vote for the town al ready, and if he has, besides, a property of 40s. freehold in the county, he has a right to vote also for the county. In all those cases you would deprive him of the right of voting for the county, and give him no compensation whatever. (Cheers.) Now, I cannot but think that when this propo sition goes forth to the country, with regard to a great por tion of those 90,000 or 100,000 persons there will be great alarm produced. For my own part, when I have thought over the Reform Act and the present state of the represen tation, which a wise Legislature would propose to amend, it has never occurred to me that this was other than one of the present advantages and benefits, instead of a defect to be remedied. (Cheers.) That is one part of the proposition of the right hon. gentleman which I say gives me great ap prehension ; and, supposing the right hon. gentleman should succeed in stifling the discontent of these persons, suppos ing he should succeed in severing the towns from the coun ties in the way he proposes, supposing he att ac h es th e counties more to the land and divides the towns from them, what effect will be produced but ill-blood between towns and counties—a greater discontent in the towns with regard to the proceedings of those who are owners of land, and a greater division of opinion among those who are occupied in agriculture and those who are engaged in trade ? (Hear.) There is another part of the right hon. gentleman's state ment, which is not a proposition but an omission, which appears to me to be of a very serious character. Ever since the time when I departed from that proposition of finality which Lord Grey and Lord Althorp always insisted upon, I have done so upon this ground, which appeared to me to be the only ground for disturbing the settlement of so vast and complicated a subject—viz., that there was a great body of persons, and those persons belonging to the working classes of the country, who were very competent to exer cise the franchise. With reFard to all those persons the right hon. gentleman does httle or nothing. (Cheers.) He has arrived only so far as I arrived in the year 1837, namely, that persons who had money in savings' banks should be allowed a franchise. Really, if contentment is to be given, if it is intended that a bill of this kind shall give satisfaction to the country, I should say that there is a great portion of the community fully satisfied with the law as it stands, but there is another portion of the com mun ity not satisfied, and that is the great body of the working men. (Hear, hear.) They take more and more interest in political concerns, they are becoming more and more qualified to judge, they have by all your changes—by your reduction of duties--by enabling them to get food cheaper—by enab ling them to get their news and disquisitions cheaper—be come more fit to exercise the political franchise ; and, feel ing politically fit, are dissatisfied that they should any longer be excluded from that privilege. (Cheers.) Be sideS, the right hon. gentleman stated, and very truly, that at different periods • bills have been brought in by the Government to confer a rating franchise. By one bill it was Proposed to confer the franchise on those who paid o t a f ti t o h n e s. fran ( rates to the amount of £5, and by another on those who Cchiheseersi.)bTnhao. That e:an they s.wi co . n sh tai t ; paid £6 in rates. Those bills have naturally raised expec think that if a bill of this kind is to give any satisfaction edcoenxrentdd, definitions t r . d n o s to the country, the great bodyof the kin 1 - wor g peop e, com prising some hundreds of thousands, aught to be admitted to the franchise, and that the constitution will be the stronger by their admission. (Loud cheers.) I think you deprive yourselves of that additional strength while you continue their exclusion. Well, these two points in the statement of the right hon, g - entlem me great dissatisfaction. With regard to any other ugi evse that in the bill' amount of the beats that q aro disposed whom had a vote. (Hear, hear.) The bill of the right hon. gentleman would meddle with the evil without settling it. He was sorry to say that, taking into consideration the pre sent bill and the Church Rate Bill, he and those who acted with him would be unable to give the Government that support which was necessary to keep them in power. He was sorry for this, because they were so badly off for leaders on that (the Opposition) side of the house. (Laughter.) The noble lord the member for Tiverton was a bad parlia mentary reformer, and the noble lord the member for the City was not a good ecclesiastical reformer; and it would have been very satisfactory if the present occupants of the Treasury bench had taken a step in advance, so as to be al lowed to retain office until the Liberal party wore prepared with leaders. (Laughter.) Mr. EDWIN JAMES said he would reserve until a future opportunity the reasons which he should venture humbly to urge upon the house would render this bill unsatisfactory to the country. Coming as he did fresh from a popular con stituency, he was justified in saying that there were very large numbers of the people calmly and anxiously expecting that that franchise7or which their intelligence fitted the m would be extended to them by any reform bill which might be proposed, and he could not help thinking that the mea sure which the Chancello r o f th e E x cheque r had propounded with so much ability and adroitness had been addressed rather to the present electoral body of the country and to the members of the existing House of Commons than to the masses of the Community, who, though there was no vio lent agitation on this subject, yet demanded admission within the pale of the constitution. The right hon. gen tleman, when in his coy manner he deferred till next day the announcement of the political doom of some of the consti tuencies, appealed to the sympathies of members of that house instead of bringing in a comprehensive measure of enfranchisement. It was an idle dream on the part of the Government to suppose that this bill would ever receive the approval of the country. Mr. BENTINCK referred to the remark of Mr. Bright, that this bill was intended to be a boon to those who sat behind the Ministerial benches. He should not canvass the details of the bill, but in reply to the statement that reform was not according to the nature of those who sat on that side of the house, he had only to say that he was in favour of reform, and for this reason, that he could not understand any man getting up in that house and saying he was against any measure of reform which would a lt er th e A c t of 1832, which he had always looked upon as a one-sided measure, and one of the most iniquitous political measures that had ever been passed, full_ of anomalies and injustices which were a disgrace to those who framed it. The hon. member proceeded to point out the inaccuracies contained in the speeches which Mr. Bright had delivered in the country on the subject of reform, denouncing them as unpatriotic and revolutionary. The hon. member for Birmingham had told them that the House of Peers represented the landed interest. But he contended that the resolution of this house which forbade the members of the other house from interfering in elections was a most unwarrantable inter ference with their rights, and that, so far from represent ing the landed interest, they were not even themselves re presented. Mr. P. O'BRIEN wished to know whether a large por tion of this empire, represented by 105 members, was totally ignored—(laughter)—or whether a bill would be introduced for Ireland ? Mr. ROUPELL had hoped that he should have had an opportunity of supporting the Government measure, but he should have almost equal happiness in giving it his most strenuous opposition. (Laughter and cheers.) Mr. S. BOOTH said this measure would disturb as little as possible the balance which had for some years existed in that house between the representatives of classes. He contended against the supposition that the Conservatives would receive any benefit from it. Still he was very far from saying that it was not a measure which that party sought to support, though he believed that he personally should lose more than he should gain by it—(hear)—the majority of the freeholders' in the town of North Hampshire being Conservative. (Hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—In re plying on a motion for the introduction of a bill the duties of a member are generally confined to answering inquiries made in the course of the debate ; and I will in the first place notice those that have been made during the discus sion this evening. The right hon. gentleman the member for Radnorshire, who followed me, inquired what the in tentions of the Government are with respect to the seats ob - coined by the disfranchisement of Sudbury and St. Albans. The intention of the Government with respect to those seats is that they should still remain in reserve, and probably, in the course of our discussions on the bill now before the house, there may be opportunities of deliberating on the best mode of apportioning them. (A laugh.) The hon. gentleman the member for Sussex asked me whether the Government have any estimate of the reduction of the con stituency by transferring the borough freeholders from the county. Sir, there are two returns, I believe, on the table of the house already on that subject ; the amount of those voters has been accurately stated by another member of the house in the course of the debate ; and I believe the last return is 105,000. The same hon. gentleman asked me whether the 40s. freeholder will vote for the borough in which he resides. He will vote for the borough in which he resides if his 40s. qualification is within that borough. Mr. DODSON—But supposing the 40s. qualification is not within the borough ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Then he will have the advantage of polling by means of a voting paper. Again, lam asked whether it is intended that an elector who is an occupier of a £lO house, and who is also a 40s. freeholder in the borough where the £lO house is, is to have only one vote. It is intended that he should have only one vote, and I think one vote ought to satisfy his ambition in electing the representative of the town in which he lives. An hon., gentleman inquired of me whether I could give him any calculation of the number of voters that will be added to the constituency by the different schemes which I have introduced to-night. It will be im possible to give any estimate that can be depended upon. The increase, no doubt, will be very considerable, exceeding half-a-million. I have no hesitation in saying that the suffrage will really depend so much on the energy of individuals—so many, I think, will be invited by these avenues being thrown open to them for advancing to the possession of the suffrage—that it is totally impossible to give that dry statistical estimate of the number which you could have if it depended merely on property, occupation, or rating, and which could be ascertained from returns. The hon. member for Hull asked whether the cost of polling places for boroughs as well as that of those for counties was to be defrayed by the locality. It will be found that by this bill such is not to be the case wherever, as we contemplate will frequently occur, a public room suitable for the purpose can be obtained without any expense. We do not propose that the candidate should be freed from that expenditure which is a legitimate one • but I think that if the ho n . member paid £4OO for polling places at the last election for Hull his accounts ought to have been scrutinised with more severity by the election officer. (A laugh,) The hon. mem ber for Cambridge inquired whether by a £lO qualification in counties I mean only a qualification which arises from the possession of a house. The bill means a qualification of £lO which arises from the occupation of lands and tone.. ments. The hon gentleman the member for Southwark denounced the bill on account of the innovation of restricting the votes of borough freeholders to the locality in which their qualification arises ; and this was the point at which the discussion, leaving the course usual on such occasions as the present, when hon. members generally restricted themselves to inquiries, took a new turn. The moment it passed the gangway inquiries ceased, and the debate afforded opinions upon the measure. (Hear.) I do not the least complain of that, but I am sure that gen tlemen will not object to my discriminating the character of the debate. Below the gangway opinions are given upon the measure, above the gangway there are merely modest inquiries as to its intent. (Laughter.) The hon. gentle man who complained that he had to-day travelled 200 miles to hear my speech and was extremely disappointed with it (Mr. Crossley), said that he and his friends wish to main tain myself and my friends in power until they are prepared to take our places. (Renewed laughter.) But he added that of all the grievances under which they are suffering at pre sent, the deficiency which they most experience is a want of leaders. Now, sir, I think that after the discussion of to-night that want can hardly be felt. The noble lord the member for the city of London, the hon. and learned mem ber for Sheffield, and the hon. member for Birmingham have announced themselves as the leaders of the move ment ; and, represented by men of that character, autho rity, and experience, I do not think th a t th e h on. gent l eman who travelled 200 miles to-day can regret the great effort which he has made. The noble lord the member for London has not hesitated a moment in expressing his opinion upon this bill. He has two objections, which at once decide his course upon the subject. The noble lord had the advantage of being acquainted with the provisions of this bill before they were detailed by me in the house to-night. He must have become acquainted with them through that corrupt agency to which the hon. member for Birmingham alluded. All I can say with respect to that transaction is, that I witnessed the publication of that information with dis may ; and I should have thought th a t th e h onoura bl e gentleman and the noble lord would have acquitted me, of all members of her Majesty's Government, of any combination of that kind; for anything more suicidal than to consent to that revelation before making the statement which I have had to make, and which by the indulgence of the house, and almost to my own astonishment, I have suc ceeded in making, I cannot conceive. (Hear.) Well, sir, the noble lord rests his opposition to this measure on two grand principles. First of all, he cannot consent to any measure which disfranchises in counties the ancient free holds which have existed for 300 or 400 years. I have had to look into this subject, and I am sorry to say that the great majority of the freeholds which I have considered are not of that age. They are of much more modern days, and have been created in a much simpler and more manufactur ing style—(laughter and cheers)—than the territorial tra ditions of the noble lord seem to contemplate. "But," says the noble lord, " I will never consent to it ; I will never be a party to a bill which disfranchises the hardworking man." What did the noble lord do in his last Reform Bill ? What was the first measure in his last bill ? Why, a proposition to disfranchise all the freemen in England. (Loud cheers.) So much for this principle of the noble lord. A great and perilous innovation to restrict the borough freeholders to vote in the locality in which their qualification exists I Why, if I mistake not, it was part of the first Reform Bill. (Hear, hear.) It was advocated by Lord Althorp, then the leader of the Howe of Commons ; and in the very interest ing and able s p eec h made by my hon. friend the member for Northamptonshire last year, in the course of the debate upon the motion of the member for Surrey, the attention of the house was recalled to these very circumstances. Lord Althorp when he brought forward the Reform Bill was in favour of providing that the freeholders who resided in boroughs should vote where their qualification was found. The noble lord says that he is for mixing the county and the town. He knows nothing more to be deprecated than that we should prevent the people of the towns going to vote in the counties. I also am in favour of that blending of interests. I know nothing more advantageous than that people should go from the towns and vote for the counties, but let them vote for qualifications in the counties. (Cheers.) But, Sir, what happened in 1832 ? Why, it was the carrying of the Chandos clause that made Lord Althorp say be would no longer insist upon the borough freeholders being restricted to their towns. It was in consequence of votes being given to £5O tenants-at-will that that resolution was arrived at; and yet this is a great and perilous innovation I It is e n innovation which has been discussed in this house often and often, that was projected by the political colleagues of the noble lord, and which has, as I believe, been accepted by the good sense of the country for a considerable period. (Hear, hear.) It was clear that the moment you considered the county franchise in the spirit in which, on the part of the Government, I have attempted to consider it to-day— the moment you put an end to that exclusive character which has been complained of in this debate, you must give the counties, not to any particular order or exclusive class , but and those wh o h ave ' but to inhabitants Q#' are absurd, and merely seem intended to make it appear that you are giving something when they really spring from the fear lest you should give something. (Cheers.) The noble lord (Lord J. Russell) has referred to another point which, if there were no other, would be absolutely fatal to the bill, and that is the transfer of the votes of freeholders who live in boroughs. (Hear, hear.) We understand that very well, and I suppose hon. gentlemen opposite understand it very well too. (Hear, hear.) It is a compensation to hon. gen tlemen opposite for the £lO franchise. (Hear, hear.) You have never had anything more valueless or more perilous offered to you as compensation. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord has said th a t it w ill i nter f ere with the Parliamentary franchise of 100,000 voters. Now, I have taken the trouble, or some of my friends have taken it for me, in anticipation of what was going to be proposed, to make a dissection of the electoral body of two boroughs. Here is the register of the boroughs of Manchester and Salford, which has been dissected to see how the bill of the right hon. gentleman will work. In Manchester there are 2,918 persons qualified to vote for South Lancashire. Of these the persons owning freeholds and living within the limits of the borough are 1,493, and of those living outside the borough there are 1,425. Of the •whole number there are 1,195 electors of Manchester who have votes as £lO occupiers. Let the house observe that 2,918 are the whole number qualified to vote for the county. Those having votes for Manchester as house or other occupiers are 1,195, therefore 1,195 cease to be voters for counties, but have no additional vote for Man chester, and you diminish to that extent the county fran chise. There are 298 of these voters resident in the borough who are not now electors for the borough, and who will be disfranchised for the county, and there remain 1,429, of whom no clear explanation can be given. They reside out side the borough, and may live, indeed, in all parts of the world. They may, perhaps, be found in every county in England. Ido not know whether it is intended that these non-resident freeholders should vote for the borough, but, if so, the right hon. gentleman re-establishes a most evil system of a non-resident constituency, and we shall have to repeal the Act of last session permitting the Payment of the expenses of voters. If we come to the re gister of Salford, the figures are less, but the return is simi lar to that of Manchester. Now, if there are 100,000 free holders in boroughs having votes for the county, and if we deprive them of those county votes, there are 40,000, if not more, non-residents who will be disfranchised altogether. (Hear, hear.) With regard to these votes for counties, the bill is a measure of disfranchisement. lam quite certain the House of Commons will never pass a clause like that. (Hear, hear.) Ido not think it would be possible to con trive anything more likely to excite dissatisfaction through out the country, and shake its confidence in, I will not say the generosity, but the comm on sense of Parliament. Now, the object of all this is to make the counties more exclusive. There is nothing you seem so much afraid of ashaving good constituencies, and especially free constituencies, in the counties. The house, perhaps, is not aware of the remark able fact that in a large portion of the counties of England, for many years past, the constituencies have not extended ; they have even positively diminished. There are 11 coun ties in which, in the 15 years from 1837 to 1852, the whole constituency has diminished not less than 2,000 votes. The whole county constituency of England Wales has only in creased by 30,000 votes, and of that increase more than half has taken place in Lancashire, Cheshire, and the West Rid ing of Yorkshire. Throughout the rest of England, from the manner in which land is tied up, from the difficulty of purchasing freeholds, and the increased size of farms, the constituencies of the counties are stationary or diminishing. As a compensation to the gentlemen who sat behind him— and whose opinions, if ho follows them, will be his ruin (laughter)—the right hon. gentleman insists on transferring 100,000 votes, on a franchise that has existed for 400 years, from the counties of England to the boroughs Now, the middle classes have also asked for a Reform Bill; but they want a much better distribution of the electoral power --(hear, hear)—and the right hon. gentleman, with an audacity that ja positively interesting—(laughter) them their c is amply considered because, owing to the fanaticism prevailing in the country—and I hope the argu ment will be found conclusive by the hon. members for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate and Mr. Spooner).— only one English borough returns a Catholic member, and therefore he has retained the borough of Arundel. (Laughter) Did • the right hon. gentleman know to whom he was speak ing when he specified Arundel, while he trifled with such cities as Liverpool and Manchester, and never mentioned Glasgow ? (Hear, hear.) But all this will be quite under stood by those who will read the newspapers to-morrow morning. The right hon. gentleman had much better have stood on the ancient practice of his party, and resisted changes of this nature, or modified those introduced by his opponents, than have originated a measure like this, which will create nothing but anger and disgust in the great body of the people of this country. The noble lord (Lord John Russell) thinks the measure is not a Conservative one ; no measure affecting the representation of the people can be Conservative that disturbs but does nothing to settle. (Hear, hear.) lam not so anxious about Parliamentary Reform as not to know it matters little whether a measure is carried now or four or five years hence. The country is not bound up with the legislation of any one session or one day. But when a Government, having the confidence of the Crown, and speaking from that bench, undertakes to meddle with a question of this nature, it should not be a thousand times less Conservative than those who, the right hon. gentleman says, have been discussing new schemes of representation throughout the country. If the right hon, gentleman al ludes to me, I beg to tell him that my new scheme is a very old one; it is a scheme that was 60 years ago propounded by several able and leading men in this country. It was a fended by eminent and leading men at the period of the last Reform Bill ; and there has been no time from 1790 to 1859,at which it has not been upheld and maintained by leading statesmen, sometimes by both Houses of Parliament, and by wise and patriotic minds in the community. I have no ob jection td the scheme of the right hon. gentleman going before the people of the united kingdom by the side of my own. The populatio n o f th e coun t ry h as not hi ng to do with it ; the wealth of the country has nothing to do with it; but take away the population and wealth of the country from consideration, and what use are Reform Bills, or Par liaments, or Ministries, or Ch ance ll ors o f t h e E xchequer at all ? (Laughter.) The right hon: gentleman talks about interests. What are interests? Surely they consist of the wants and wishes of the people, and the right hon. gentleman has taken the most efficacious plan—and I thank him for it—of ascertaining what is the opinion of the people with regard to this great question. Ido not wish for any violent political discussion or angry controversy—(hear)-- in or out of the house. I had hoped the experience of 1831 and 1832 would have induced any Govemment who under took to deal with this question to do so on'a broad and com prehensive principle. I hoped, from what the right hon. gentleman said, that he was about to do so to -night ; for I did not for a moment believe that the sketch we saw in a certain newspaper—bribed, I presume, in supporting this miserable bill by early information —was a fair description of the Government measure. I hoped the right hon. gen tleman would have taken the bread out of my mouth by a bill so broad, complete, and worthy of public support that I could have given it my hearty approval ; and that I should not be forced, as I now shall be to ask the h ouse for leave to i n t ro d uce ano th er bi ll on 'the subject on an early day. The more you consider and examine that mea sure the more you will find it is based on the principles of the Reform Bill and of the Constitution ; and that it is in finitely more Conservative--looking forward to the next 50 years—than the measure that disturbs everything, will irri tate vast masses of the people, and will settle nothing. (Hear, hear.) Mr. H. DRUMMOND regretted that her Majesty's Go vernment had engaged in a - question of this nature. (" Hear, hear," from Lord J. Russell.) The noble lord said " Hear,' , but he was one of their chief instigators. On a former occasion the noble lord stated that the present Government was not accustomed to play this tune ; yet he urged them to begin. He (Mr. Drummond) thought it rather hard on the house that they should be reed to listen to a concert by 13rofessional non-performers—(laushter)—who were hardly competent to lead a decent mglody. (Laughter.) But why did not the noble lord " " Take the good the G o d s prov id e hi m; Lovely Thais sits beside him!" Cheers and laughter; Mr. Roebuck was sitting next to Lord J. Russell.) The hon. gentleman was quite rea d y , " like an o th er H e l en, to fire another Troy." He agreed with the hon. gentleman that the bill did not go to the point. The noble lord spoke of 40s. freeholders. There might be some such freeholders as he described, but in many parts of the country they were in the hands of the men for whom they worked—generally small farmers. The 40s. freehold of the reign of Henry VI. was now worth £5O, and, if the Reform Bill of 1832 had done anything in a really Conservative spirit, it would have raised the 40s. freehold to ag. (Hear.) He did not understant what the present Reform Bill was to do. He could not understand what was its object, or the manner in which that object was to be attained. (Hear, hear.) Th e last bill was an act of vengeance by the Whigs on the party that had kept them so long out of power. (Laughter-) To attain this end, they deceived their muter, and they undermined th e throne. (Laughter.) They coerced the House of Lords, and threatened that if they could not carry their bill by any other means they would do so by insurrection, and by a resort to blood and battle. (Hear, hear.) They suc ceeded, and they had some merit in success. (Hear, hear.) All that he understood, but he confessed he did not under stand why they were to have this new Reform Bill from the Government. (Hear, hear,) He quite understood the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Bright.) He was perfectly honest and fair in what he was doing. He (Mr. Drum mond) knew what he was at, and what he aimed at, but he repeated he could not understand about this bill, or how to meet it. (Hear, hear.) It was said everybody wanted reform, but then came the question what was meant by reform ? In reality reform meant to take taxation off yourself and put it on somebody else. (A laugh) That was, no doubt, the meaning of the bill of the hon. gentleman opposite, though he would not enter into the dis cussion of that measure till he introduced it. The ultra liberals, the gentlemen who were further advanced than other people in the way of progress—how far down he did not know (a laugh)—thought fit to meet together in com mittee-room No. 17, and took it into their heads that there should be reform ; then, they agreed to ask the hon. member opposite (Mr. Bright) to bring forward a bill, as, indeed, he was the only man who had honesty and ability enough to carry out such a measure. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But everybody knew well enough what it all meant. (Hear.) It mattered little what was the extension of the franchise that might be proposed. After the first Reform Bill was announced he (Mr. Drummond) said there was no principle in £lO any more than in £9 or £B, for the truth was that once begun they could not stop short of uni veval suffrage. (Hear, hear.) How could they stop short? It did not at all follow that it was revolutionary. That which was really revolutionary was to put political power into the hands of men who had no property themselves, but who would take upon them to dispose of the property of those who had. (Hear.) The settlement of this point was the great problem to be solved, but it was not solved by the hon. gentleman opposite, nor was it:solved by the bill which had been brought before them that night. (Hear.) If they preserved political power in the hands of those who had pro perty, then they might extend the franchise as far as they pleased, (Hear, hear.) Lord PALMERSTON would not now enter upon the merits of the bill which the right hon. gentleman had in troduced. He thought it better to defer expressing an opi nion till he saw the bill itself, as it would no doubt clear up a great many points which the right hon. gentleman, in the long statement he had made to the house, had not, per haps, fully explained. He wished to guard himself against inference being drawn ono way or the oth er b y hi s abstain ing at present from going into details, and to suggest to the right hon. gentleman that when he made his reply he should state when it was his intention to propose the second reading of the bill. He hoped a sufficient interval would elapse to enable the house and the country fully to consider the measure that he had proposed. Mr. CROSSLEY, having travelled a distance of 200 miles to hear the statement of the right hon. gentleman, must be allowed to express his regret at the result. It was full of high-sounding words, but there was very little in them. To use a homely Yorkshire expression, " there was a great deal more cloth than dinner." (Laughter.) The working classes had neither part nor lot in the matter. There could be no better proof of this than the condition of the borough which he had the honour to represent. He employed,"in addition to women and children, not less than I,3vv"" men , not ow 91 , IMMOIa THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 1, 1859. a substantial local interest in them ; and I feel persuaded that the justness of this arrangement, the logical sequence as it is of recognising the identity of the am.ffrage, will not meet with that fate which has been predict° d for it by hon. gentlemen below the gangway, but will be a ccepted by the good sense of the country. (Hear.) Anothei • lion. gentle man, the member for Oldham, has complained eiat nothing is done for the working classes, and the lion.. member for Birmingham has confirmed that complaint, and enforced it with all his vigour of expression. What we :ha ye done for the working classes may not sound so large as; some of the plans which are commonly advocated for their advancement —there is nothing more easy than to make a si ?eech and say that you are in favour of the working classes, and that you think they ought to have this power an d that privi lege ; but you never pass any measures to do anything for the working classes. (Hear, hear.) The weerking classes will, I thin, be sensible of e advantage which they will derive from this measure, which I hope a .nd believe will pass. Here are two avenues to the constituent power opened to all working men who . possess those qualities which would entitle them to exercise that power —the savings -bank suffrage and the 40s. freehold. The hon. gentleman tells me that we are doing nothing for the working classes, and arrogates to himself the peculiar privilege of being acquainted with their wants, wishes, and requirements. He says that I can know nothing about the working classes, and that I only talk to my friends behind me, and that they know nothing about the working classes. My friends know much more than the hon. gel itleman thinks, and I can assure him that I do converse with others than my friends, and that I have as good means as he has _of learning what are the feelings of the working &asses. I Will tell the hon. gentleman the things that have been repre sented to me, on what I believe to be th e veil - best autho rity, and from members of the working classes most distin guished by their personal and moral qualities and intelligence. There were two things which they impressed upon me. Not knowing of the 40s. franchise, they said that,: that w hich they valued most of all was the savings -bank suffrage, and that in which they had the least confidence was the pro positions of the hon. member for Birmingham. (Cheers and laughter.) They told me that they could not trust the hon. member for Birmingham, they were not satisfied that under his plan the working men would exercise that privilege. But they said—We clearly' mid erstand what a savings-bank suffrage means. We may in vent more, we we may devise other schemes, but this is a great boon, and one that will be much appreciated by the wt irking classes. (Cheers.) I believe, Sir, that is the case. _Now, it is not necessary for me to trespass upon the house at any length. An hon. gentleman ha s as k e d me t o - n i g ht wi at I intend to do about Ireland. Well, I thought Ireland had had a Reform Bill very recently; that it had a boo,/ whieh Eng land had not enjoyed nor Scotland. I undi irstood that.it had worked to the satisfaction of Irish membi irs, and I am sure that Irish members have on several occasions expressed themselves satisfied with it; but the Government have no prejudices upon this subject—(laughter)—th( ;yr are prepared to consider the case of Ireland, and have consi.d ered it, and I can assure the hon. member, in due season, after some other bills have progressed, when the bill has been read a second time, and the Scotch bill has been launched, we shall have much satisfaction in submitting an Irish Bill. (Hear, hear.) But the most remarkable circumstance in this dis cussion has been the complaint of Scotch members, and of one in particular, that the Government h ave treated the Scottish people in a cavalier manner. IV.ow, I took the greatest pains this evening to guard the ii iterests and vin dicate the position of Scotland. I showed the hon. gentle men opposite that if any new_ principle of reform were adopted, Scotland might probably be disfranchised to an alarming extent. (Laughter.) I showed . him that if he continued to support his friends among who in he generally sits, probably Scotland would not be represented by more members than the metropolitan districts, and 1 that the sur plus representation would be given to the o onstituents of the hon. member for Lambeth, who has just addressed us. It is pot fair or just to allege that the Government have treated Scotland in a cavalier manner. The re is one p o int yet remaining to which I must advert, and that is to fix the period when I shall ask the house to read tbjei bill a second time. _(Hear, hear.) Upon that subject I aro in the hands of the House. I ought to observe that the Go vernment de sires to consult the feelings of the house. Had I followed my own inclinations, guided only by general oonsiderations of public business, I should have asked the house to allow me to move the second reading on this day fortnight. (Hear, hear.) If the house will consent to that day I will fix it for that time, but I am bound to say that representa tions have been made to me by hon. members upon the other side which it would not be fair for me, after what has occurred, to treat with silence, that I should name this day three weeks—(hear)--but I leave that point to the house to decide. The Government are prepared to fix this day fort night. It must be either that or this day three weeks, for the Government measure of finance must be considered (Cries of " Three weeks.") It is, then, the understanding that I shall move the second reading of this bill upon this day three weeks. (Hear, hear.) I trust, sir, that when that motion is made it will; be successful. (Cheers and laughter.) The amendment was then withdrawn, and leave given to bring in the bill. MEDICAL ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This bill passed through committee. INCLOSURE OF LANDS BILL. This bill was considered, as amended, and. ordered to be read a third time this day. BURIAL PLACES BILL.. This bill was read a third time and passed. SUPPLY OF GAS IN LONDON. Mr. BYNG moved the appointment of a select committee to inquire into and report on the existing arrangements for the supply of gas to the metropolis.—Agreed to. PARLIAMENTARY REPRESENTATION BILL. This bill was introduced by the Chancellor of the Ex chequer and read a first time. The second reading was fixed for the 21st of March. The house adjourned at 25 minutes to 12 o'clock. SPORTING INTELLIGENCE. . . TATTERSALL'S—YESTERDAY. The members dispersed early, in order to catch the 5 p.m. train ,for Liverpool. Th e b e tti ng was marked by some briskness, but there were no new or important features. For the Liverpool Steeplechase renewed support was accorded to The Brewer, whose price at the close was 3'to 1 with takers. Ghika returned to favour, and although 10 to 1 was offered against him, odds a point higher were taken with avidity. Little Charley, Jealousy, and Jean du Quesne receiv ed a tolerable degree of support at the odds quoted. For the Spring Cup • Aneurin was in " force," at . 5 to 1; indeed, nearly every bookmaker at the close of business was "full against" Mr. Merry's colt. Ambush and Broadlands were, for the most part of the afternoon, neck and neck in the betfing, but at last Ambush was the —best favourite. nut one or two investments were made on the Derby-20 to 1 was taken to a pony about Merryman, and Volcano was backed for £lOO at the price given below. Viking was once more in bad odour, as the " knocking out" price quoted will testify. CLOSING PRICES. LIVERPOOL STEEPLECHASE. 3to 1 agst The Brewer (taken) 9to 1 agst Jealousy (taken) 9to 1 agst Little Charley (taken) 10 to 1 agst Ghika (offered) 15 to ,1 agst Jean du Quesne (taken) 15 to 1 agst Half-Caste (taken) 15 to 1 agst The Huntsman (taken) 25 to 1 agst Xanthus (taken) 25 to 1 agst Knight of the Shire (taken) 25 to 1 agst Border Chief (taken) Glautius is struck out. SPRING CUP. sto 1 agst Aneurin (taken) 7to 1 agst Ambush (taken) Bto 1 agst Broadlands (taken) Bto 1 agst Gladiolus (taken) 20 to 1 agst Cheval de Bronze (taken) TWO THOUSAND GUINEA STAKES. 4to 1 agst Promised Land (taken and offered) DERBY. 22 to 1 agst Volcano (taken) 20 to 1 agst Merryman (taken) 1000 to 10 agst Viking (offered) The Madrid journals of the 21st have arrived. In the Chamber of Deputies no fewer than three " reform bills" had been brought in, one of them by M. Aparici, proposing to exclude public functionaries altogether from the Chamber ; the second by M. Calvo Asensio, enacting that the greater part of the high func tionaries of State, civil and military, should be selected exclusively from amongst the deputies; and the third by M. Olozaga, for the adoption of measures calculated to prevent the Government of the day from exercising an abusive influence in elections. It had been decided that the trial of M. Santaella before the Senate should take place with closed doors. The Fenix, organ of Queen Chris tina, after having long been favourable to the O'Donnell Cabinet, had begun to attack it. This change of policy had caused much remark. At Albrenol, in. the province of Granada, disturbances had taken place, on the occasion of an election, and in the course of them the brother of the mayor had been dangerously wounded. The governor of the province had deemed it necessary to go to the town to re-establish order, and he had arrested the leaders of the disturbances. The Queen had given a magnificent ball, and danced with Prince Adal bert of Bavaria, and with the President' of the Council. • A letter states that, in spite of all the efforts made, the Government has indefinitely postponed the recognition of the class of securities called "English coupons." [ADVERTISEMENT.] Holloway's Ointment. Cutaneous Eruptions in Infancy.—No affections of the skin are more frequent or more annoying to children and nurses than the irritating chafing with which fat children are constantly inflamed, and the helpless little afflicted. So great is often the irritation that low fever sets Holloway's Ointment should fis in tai , mff t ee h rde e be in every nursery . ; 14; application cools and soothes the in parts, securing peace to the wearied nurse, and ease to rf whole ll skin t eo n becomes o n s . which, 'worn out with crying., soundly tion is equally effective in red-bum, rs, and all infantile diseases, whether tooth -rash, s o Th r ,h o ci u sr s acp e k h ree a dp rf,: a . e e raa , general over the whole body, or confined to the head, nose, or cars. BIRTHS. GRAHAM.—On the 27th ult., at 29, Porchester-sq uare , Hyde-park, th e wife of Walter Graham, Esq., of a son. JAMESON.—On the 27th ult., at Epsom, Mrs. John Jame son, of a son. MARRIAGES MASON—DALTON.—On the 24th uit., at the Oratory, Brompton, Thomas C. Mason, Esq., of Chelmsford, to Agnes M. A. Dalto n e ld es t daughter of T. C. Dalton, Esq., of Bueklersbury. DEATHS. DE LISLE.—On the 26th ult., at Red-hill Surre Ferdi nand Do Lisle, E sq ., age d 79 . , y, MACKAY.—On the 26th ult., at Naples, Rosa Jane, daugh ter of Charles Mackay, Esq., LL.D. • LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No; 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county of bliddleee; Tuesday s Maxch 1, 1869. -or ~.~ ye" llNisi