The Sun. — London, England, 1829-02-13 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. I' OUSE OF LORDS.—(LAST NIGHT.) TM: Loom CuANcEt.t.on. entered the House a few r:iinutes :wren.. Four e'clikit. Prity,rs were recd the Lord Bishop of Chester, after which the Ear:s of Liverpool and .Mulgrave took th e oaths al,d their The lions! then eti:j ana;eil during pleasule. The L.ortn CH AN:: -.cok his seat on the woolsack a fe-e ntinntei after Five o'clock. T Eirl of SHAFTESBURY presented a petition front tar Provost and Borough of Stirliog, and from Artier !Ain, in Bucks, -,gainst further comeession. FEVERSHAM presented a petition fi-om Kirkby Lonsilre. Lon; ELDON presented five petitions from parishes in Baci7.4. arinst further concessions to the Catholics; from a 7 , arish iii Oxlor , shlre ; from a nother in Berkshire, praying the preservation or 11e i soistitution Three parishes in ‘Villingford, one from a parish in the cot, ry f P istbrnhe, another from Irletrstotie, Lanca shire, I,ie i strten that the ilisinay was great in conse quence of the ttn-a,ttres which had been adopted. On , flow a p u rist in Denbigh, another 'rum Redding, C, - narvon-- , ire, one fro:n Rid ii :le, Lati,!.ol,ir ,01,1 front e e Protest:int Di,- t ows of tsoiwies In lrelaod. The )uke DEVONSHIRE hail s-v, rat har.l to pr. s—tit. Brigiver prospects had now oaet.ed nn IrelataL, and w:rhoitt known, what the treasure was that was to hela- , ught fit ward, he give it his warmest suppio r, The N l3le Duke Own pleserited petitions from Duta.tar von ;..r Youghil, p-aying for the re t icsal of the laws relative to the at plies. Lor.• FALNIOUTH had several petiCons, and before he pro.. ro-II them lee thought it right to Fisk the Nohle Duke It the head, of its Majesty's Government a single .„uestion. He probably should not have been under the neeessity of doing so, but (torn having been prevented attend. il;; the opening of Parliament by indisposition, and tberef •re he had not had the benefit of those explanations that h.,1 been given on one of the most important subjects ever Lefore the House. Ile understood a statement had lu-nt made by the Noble Duke, to the effect that the majority of the people of England were in favour of what he haul termed settling the question. The Noble Duke had explained, by his own conduct, settling the question to mean Catholic Emancipation. Ile begged therefore to ask, whether the Noble Duke had declared that the majority of the people of England were in favour of settling the question, meaning by that Catho lic Emancipation. [The Noble Lord here sat down, but the Noble Duke apparently was not aware that Lord Pal month had coueluded.l Lord FALMOUTH again therefore came forward, and • xpressed his sorrow at having asked a question which the Noble Duke did not think proper to answer. The Duke of WELLINGTON rose and begged pardon for not having been aware that the Noble Lord had conclude:l. He did not think the Neble Lord was quite regular in coming there to state expressions which be (the Noble Duke) bad used, or was supposed to have used, and than to ask for an explanation of them. He did not exactly recollect the expressions that had fallen from him.— But he had no limitation in saying that a very great por tion of the people of this country were most anxious that this questbzn should he settled. Lord HOLLAND apprehended that the constitutional question the Noble Lord wished to know was to be an swered by the House of Commons. Lora FALMOUTI-1 did not consider himself out o . order at all. The Noble Duke certainly had not now said] the trejority, but that he believed a very great portion of the people of England were in favour of Emancipation. The Noble Duke had explained the matter by his conduct, sn much that he say, when the Noble Duke rtieil the term settling the Catholic Question, he meant granting Emancipation. He hoped, if that were so, the Noble Duke would not hesitate to advise his Majesty to dis solve Parliament. He trusted the Protestants were not to be taken by surprise. It was impossible for the Noble Duke to m ike the statements he had done, without drawing the fixed attention of the public. his infbritietion from the west of England was of such a na ture th at he believed not one man in a hundred in those counties, if they were polled, would be in favour of settling the quer•ion : he thought in Cornwall and Devon there were three cp. erten; of a million of people, and that ninety-nine out of a hundred were against the measure. He hoped the Noble Duke would come forward and prove the: a great many people were in favour of that extremely disastrous and serious measure. He thought the Noble Duke had heen too severe in accusing him of being-irregular in ask ing the questions he had done. The Duke of WELLINGTON charged the Noble Lord with nothing but the fact, that it was not according to the orders of the House to refer to a former statement in it, and then ask what hail been said. The Noble 7.-ord had put it upon him that he had used the words " Catholic Emancipation." That jertn had been inisaprlied. It was a cant phrase, intended to throw odium upon him which lie did not deserve. When he came forward to submit the plan to the Honee, it would then be seen plainly that it would be satisfactory to a gr. at many of the public. Lord FARNHAM did not deny that the Orders of the House were as the Noble Duke had stated them, but it was a matter of every day occurrence that references were made to firmer debates. An example occurred only the other evening, The Noble Duke himself had referred to whaehad fallen from him on a former occaaion, with a view to give an explanation about a certain letter. The Duke of WELLINGTON—That was not to ask an eel:id - nation. Lore FALMOUTH then presented a petition from Cornwe.l against Emancipation, signed by a great many of the espectable portion of that country. Lord LONGFORD, in presenting a petition, said he had be - n extremely nii-aonceived in what lee had said: the other evening. He was reported to have said that his No: le Relation at the head of the Government had been gellty of deceit. He had never said any such thing. The other point was with respect to the Forty shilling Freeholders of Ireland. One of the petitions he had re: erred to, he n.d not consider applicable to the oc casion; feet no language could he use sufficiteitly strong to show now anxious he was that the Forty-sealing Act should lie repealed. 'The Noble Lord then presented a petition from the county of Armagh, against further 'con cession N., the Catholics. The Itishop of DURHAM presented a petition from the Clergy ~• the County Palatine of Durham against further cuncessi, - us to the Itonian Catholics; and another petition to the rime effect from Nerthallerton. Lost CARNARVON having heard t'sis petition read. admitted that the Church of Roue had always been represee red as sterigereua and tyeinnieel. bu! he would] not be bur r :6.rd to fiod the petitioners in this iii-wise had meant the Church of England, because tt•iere never had been a dine iveen the Steer was sdr likety to be ovei thrown by any set of men, as it was at present the einoluct it not of the whole, of the area Imply of tia• Gerey of England. The Nobie Lord owed ir would not he repeited that the House would tie taken by surprise if the Roman Catholic question was now to be adjusted, because, wherever he had been isece the sittiuge of Parliament last closed, he had he,rd nothing but enquiries as to what was to be done upon this aut. j ect when the House should meet again ; and if , he House and country were not now prepared for the adjestment, never would the period of preparation arrive. the resort of the state of things that had existed had not been la:riy put. The country had been egregiously bin dened with te.xes for the purpose of keeping up a military force in Ireland, and if such a cool se was to he persisted in and continued, this country would be reduced to the greater: degree of degradation by it. The Noble Lord hoped their Lordships would now proceed to the settle ment of the question coolly, without regard to the clamour nut of doors. and* at the same time unbiassed within.-- A printed statement had rip eared that Parliament was now a degenerate Senate, and that that degenerate Senate was prepared to sacrifice the Constitution of that country to libellers and traitors! ! This paper bore the signatures• of some of the Members of that House, one of whom he Noble Lord saw in his scat, hut which signatures the Noble Lord could not but regard_ as forgeries. The time was, when, if a Member of that House had sent forth such a statement he would have been called to the Bar of the House, and from thence removed to prison. If Noble Lords however were privy to this proceeding, it was only to he considered as the ravings of disturbed minds and excited passions. How could any man presume to say what the Hoene was prepared to do, when not one of its members had given their vote ? The people of Ireland were looked upon as nothing ; yet •it was to be recol lected that there hail already been one rebellion in that unfortunate country, which had cost, besides millions of money, not lees 'than 100;000 human lives. Men who had always been the strongest opposers of Catholic eman ctpation, appeared to be now completely decided in their minds that there were no means of allaying the dis turbed state that Judd so long existed e except either by com mencieg another civil war, which Might last for another twenty years, as the former did, or by adjusting the question in a: satisfactory Inanner to these seven mil lions of people,—(Hear. )--The Government that would attempt to rule Ireland as it bad been governed for the last avoided any allusion to the merits of the case, but he could not help censuring the practice, followed by every Lord Lieutenant, of sending a letter round on every eletttifm, stating that a certain Peer, who, it wits understood, had the Government interest, was a candidate to fill - the va cancy. This was nothing less than a breach of their Lordships' privi'eges, and he would treat it as stich if ever it were again practised. He concluded by moving that the Pe'tition be referred to the Committee of Privileges to- .'2,0 years, could on no aceount be considered as conA't tted of any thing but ectual madmen. The E-al of WINCHELSEA, as le meant to address the House to-morrow night, when he presented the petition to their Lordships of which he had given notice, would o nin make a few observations now. If the sentiments contained in the letter to which the Noble Earl alluded, were the ravings of a disturbed mind, he knew well that they were the sentiments ef a vast number of the sub jecte of this country. Those sentiments did not apply to the Noble Lord who hid just sat down, whose prin ciples hod been uniformly consistent. He wished he could say so of the party with whom he had long acted, but with whom he would act no longer. If one single argument had been advanced by that party, who hail hitherto re sisted Catholic! Emancipaticen on the ground that it could not be granted without endaneerie s the Protestant The SrEA KER. took his seat at Four o'clock. inhabitants of that country, to show that they had pro perly changed their opinions, then the argument might Sir J. NICHOLL presented a petition against any fer have enlightened him and heheted him to have peen them ther eencession to the Catholics from the Clergy of the his eepport ; but when it was stated, as it hid been County Palatine of Durham. by some of them at lease, that they still retained Mr. I.ITTLETON presented a petition from the inlia their former principles, but now way to circum helm! ts of the parish of Witham, Staffordshire, against Ca stances, it appeared to hint that they had yielded to a eely ef men who hail openly and dip ingly opposed them- tholic Emailepation. seleee to the establiebed laws of this country, and Mr. GREEN presented a similar petition from the pa it W•l4 ro tlisee the sentiments in his l et t e r were vie!, of Ulverstone, Lancashire. area-nit to apply, and not to those' to hose conduct he Sir G HILL presented a petition from Sir Harcourt should admire to tl e latest hour ef his he. Lees, for the suppression of the Catholic Atesociation. The Bishopo•SAlNT DAVID'S preseeted a petition ' Mr. BELL presented a petition against Catholic Etnan. egeitast the. Catholics, but we could not learn from whit place. ciliation, from the Clergy of the diocese of Durham, am A N,-tale Lord, whose name we could not learn, presented (led eel that he was not yet a convert, and should oppose einoilar priirione from Bangor, and other places iu Wales. Catholic Emancipation. L: r• 1 KING presented a petition front Granard, in Ire- Sir J. BERESEORD presented a similar petition from lariat, in favour of the Catholics. Nerthallerten. Lord LORTON presented a petition from the Nobility, Sir T. GOOCH presented a similar petition from the Gentry, Freeholders, amid other Pretestant. Inhabitants of perish of Wham, and other places in the county of the county of Dublin, praying that their Lordships would Suffolk. not grant any further political power to the Catholics; Sir T. LETHBRIDGE presented similar petitions that they would ;eke measures to put down the Catholic from North Widden, and other parishes of North Wilt- Association, and to eisfranchise the forty-shilling free- shire and Sornersetshire. holders. The petition was worthy of their Lordships' at- Mr. O'BRIEN presented a petition from the Catholic tention, as it represented the opinion of the Protestants of inhabitants of Gilcrist, in the county of Clare, far Catholic Ireland, who owned 9-10tH of the property of the coon- Emancipation. try. Ifis Lordship contended that granting further power Mr. CARTWRIGHT load always been adverse to to the Catholics, and allowing the Catholic Association to the granting of the Catholic claims, but since he found exist, thwarted all the efforts of these landlords for the be- the Ministers bad received time confidence they had, and hefit of Ireland. He was glad to learn that it was the in- that the necessity of settling the question was acknow tendon of his Majesty's Ministers to put down the Catholic ledged on all hands, he thought at least they ought to Association, end he relied on their carrying their plan for hear what they had to propose.—(Hear, hear.) this purpose into effect. The Forty-shilling Freeholders Mr. WM. YATES• PEEL - confessed he could not look were all in a state of abject bandage to the Roman Catho- with unmingled feelings of satisfaction at time Bill which lic Priests. They were hereditary bondsmen. There was was before time House, but when lie saw those who had a gored amplification of this in the famous election of Clare, been opposed to emancipation, now advocating the ne wlwn Mr. O'Connell prostrated himself in the mud, in the cessity of its being granted, he came to the conclusion, that open street, before a Catholic Bishop. such a statement his Majesty's Government had but a choice of dif had been made, and never denied. This was very nearly ferent facilities, and they had to clause the best. allied to idolatry. It coal not be allowed that persons so The two evils were, Catholic concessions and a civil war. abject should elect the Members of Pareiament who are to If the latter event were to take place, no one could look make the laws for this Protestant empire. if Catholic Eman- xithout horror at the scenes of bloodshed which must cipetion egranted, and the Forty-shilling freeholders were follow.—(dear, hear, hear.)—ln seeking what was to nut disfranchised, the sun of Britain's glory would set for lie done, three courses presented themselves—first, that ever. The people were placed between two parties—the of chanting unqualified Catholic Emancipation : secondly, priests and the landlord; ; and by the former they were that of refusing all concessions; and thirdly, that of grant threatened with eternal damnation, if they dial those sering concessions with sufficient securitica. To the first he el-,es for the latter they had a right to claim out of grati- would be no party, for such a course would be little less tuale. With reference to the state of the Jesuits in Ire- than undoes'. To the second course he was certain the lend, which wee a matter of some importance, he begged majority of that House could not be brought:to accede. The. leave to call their Lordships' attention to a pamphlet, only course which was open to them was that of concession. which was an exposure of the Jesuits. His Lordship then Sir J. ASTLEY presented a petition against Catholic read a brief extract from a pamphlet of this description. Emancipation, from the Archdeacon and Clergy of the If it was intended to preserve the Protestant Establish- county of Wilt.. merits of these realms, not one single Jesuitical seminary Colonel ROCHFORT wee determined to oppose to the should he suffered to remain. They should be got rid of utmost of his power the measure which Ministers intended one after another, or there never could be peace or tran- to introduce. It was true that his (Colonel Rochfort's) quillity, particularly on the other side of the Channel. party had lost their leader—they were now like an orange He bad also another petition to the, amuse effect from the without the rind.—(A laugh.) Protestants of time barony of Ossery, very numerously Sir G. ROBINSON presented a similar petition from signed. They prayed also for the repeal of the Act of the the Unitarian Chapel of Northampton. :33dGeo. 111., by:which the Forty-shilling Freeholders were Mr. MAXWELL took this opportunity of stating that created, anti for the effectual suppression of the Roman he weuld support the great measure which was so (shortly Catholic Association. to come before them, for the suppression of the Catholic Viscount CLIFDEN presented a petition from the Re- Association ; but he would rather that it had been after man Catholics of the county of Dublin, praying for relief than before time granting of emancipation : he considered from their civil disabilities; and also that part ot the money that the existence of the Catholic Association was incorn granted for education in Ireland might be given to the patible with the existence of the Government. Catholic pieces of education. The petitioners complained Mr. SUGDEN considered the measure brought forward, that efforts were made in the schools where the Protestants by Ministers as striking at the root of the Constitution, had the chief authority, to make proselyte* of the Catho- and, unless he could support the whole measure, he was lie children. This was a practice which could not be too not inclined to say that emancipation should be partially much censured. He could conceive nothing more con- granted. But, whatever doubts they might have as to teary to every goon principle, or to the principles of the propriety of making concessions to the Catholics, he the Christian Religi, n, that an attempt to make pro- was satisfied all would agree that the Catholic Association eelytre of children in their tender years. The reason was an unconstitutional body, and would act in concert was obvious ; and he would put it to every person who with Government in the determination to put it down. heard him, how would they like to have their chit- He was aware that it was the opinion of many Honourable dreg priaselytheed to another faith ? It was contrary Members that, when Catholic Emancipation was granted, to the doctrines of the most divine of all the portions of the Catholic Association would die a natural death. . 'Phis the Scripture—time Selman on the Mount ; for there might possibly be so, but the very recollection that an they were expressly told, "Do by others as you would have Association was in existence which was dangetous to the them do by you ;" anal therefore, by converse, they were interests of the country ought to engage the feelings not to do by others what they would not have others do by warmly in putting it down, as a preliminary step tat those them. It was true, he brlieveal, that the Catholics had measures which his Majesty's Ministers were about to ad taken away their children from Protestant Schools, where dress to the attention of the House, If it appeared to the parents were tinder the apprehension that they would those who were at the head of his Majesty's Councils that be made pro s elytes,. He knew an instance in which this prospective measures were desirable, they ought to be pre , had happened at Watertind ; but when the Catholics found ceded by the fall of this Association. One of the provi there was no such intention, all the children returned ; stuns of the BR for the suppression of this Association and therefore it was proved to d e monstration, th a t where would, he hoped, render illegal the collecting of anything they hail removed the children, it was because efforts had in the shape of a Rent; that strong power ought only to been made to debauch them from the faith of their fathers; be vested in the Government of a country. The next ob he called it debauching them, because they were drawn jean should be to prevent those simultaneous; meetings from the Nth of their fathers, not by their own convic- which took place in almost every part of Ireland, and thin, but by the undue influence exercised over them. , which threatened the very existence of the Government Time Petition was from the Parish of St. Margaret, itself; and then to bring down those meetings in chapels, which not only desecrated those holy places, The Earl of LONGFORD did not believe that any ef- but lost fur them all that respect and veneration forts were made to proselytise the Catholics. The teachers which ought to belong to those places. Instead of being were not only cautioned against not making proselytes as a confined to religious purposes, they became the resort of part of their business, but every means were taken in the fanatics, who divided the sentiments of the nation, and power of the governors to inculcate on those who superin- brought the safety of the people in danger. His opinion tended time schools that no such system WAS to be pursued. was still against Catholic Emancipation; but if the pres- If the Noble Viscount wished to ascertain the tact, and sure of circumstances induced him to support the recom would allow him (Lord Longford) to send him a copy of mendation contained in the King's Speech, it was because the last Report of the proceedings of the Society, he had he chose the lesser evil of the two that were presented to no douet time Nettle Viscount woulal be satisfied. his view, and on the adoption of which the safety of the Viscount CLIFDEN still thought in some instances State in a great measure depended. He could not believe there were grounds for these accusations. The Catholics that the Roman Catholics would be benefitted by the Ines- ' reciveal assistance gratefully from those who iwested on sure. The more proper course, in his opinion, would mouthing against their religion. He than presented another have been to try first to improve the moral and inteilecttee petition from the Inhale:eras of St Margaret's parish, condition of the great holy of the people in Ireland ; and, Dublin ; but desserts against time Sub-letting Act, in which when that was accomplished, but mut till then, it might he was not quite prepared to go the full length of true be proper to introduce sonic such measure as that propo'ed. prayer of the petitioners. They echoed for the repeal of Me MAXWELL presented petitions arson the Protestant this Act ; and tee believed it required itmendepent as to inhabitant. of ttath,lown, and several other parishes in the !caws m towns and elsewhere. The Noble Viecouut also county of Wicklow against any further concessions to the pseeentee a petition trout the Catholics of Killerney, for Roman Catholics. The petitioners likewise prayed that the tee r; pc lof tee New Vestry Act As om this petition House would pace some ineaeure for regulating the m a nlier aim>, he was not prepared to en its uII length ; but he in wi m ice the Elective Franchise wes exercised in lremend. thoug• t that Act rose iequ.red amendineut. Lord 13ECTIVE ',aid lie had the crest haniour to pre -13 of whi c h came f rom o n e single c'munty Time Marquis of LANSDOWNE load ~)flit petitions to sent 40 e etition-, pr ese nt praying ear chat was commonly, but Improperly, in Ireland. in favour of Ema nc ip a ti on . (Loud cries of called Roman Ceti - min: Emancipation. Nothing - could be hear.) He lisped the time was near at hand when it further Conn his Intentems than, on presentiug these pets- weuld be ainneceesary to present such petitions as these. tions• to trouble their Leralehme with any general argu- The country could not sufficiently express its gratitude to metes on time question ; but he could not tallow it to be Government for the manner it which they had taken up stated, coining as it did, too, on the respectable authority the CALM! Of our stiffering Roman Catholic brethren—it was of the Noble Lord who had lately spoken on the other side a measure at which he rejoiced, although it was only of the Hamm', that nine-tenths of the Protestan t landed g rantin g them that j ustice which had lon g been _delayed-. interetie of Ireland were adverse to what was called Roman (Hear.) He entirely concurred in the sentiments of the Catholic Emancipation. petitioners. A great deal had been said about putting Viscount LORTON begged the Noble Marquis's pare down the Association, but nothing had been said about the don for interrupting him ; but he had not said what the necessity of suppressing other Associations. If the Catho- Noble Marquis imputed to him. lie had said that the lie Association were dangerous, the Brunswick 'flubs were Protestants were in possession of nine-tenting of the landed doubly so. It was a notorious fact, that in Dublinlan property of Ireland. Orange flag was waving over the door of the Brunswick The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, in return, begged par Club-house. Such proceedings were calculated to create don ef the Noble Viscount, whom he had certainly misap- discord and prehended. He admitted that nine-tenths of time landed Mr. G. MOORE said, before the petitions were brought property were in the nomieal possession of the Protestents; up, he felt it his duty to say a few words on what had fallen that they held by freehiald to that extent, he could easily from the Noble Lent ; he could not concur in the genera! believe ; but the Noble Lord knew that the Roman Catho- statements of the petitioners, although he certainly wished lies held an immense mass of property under the Protest- not only the Catholic Association to be put down, but like ants. Besides what had appeared in evidence before the wise every other intolerant Association ;he would put down Committees of their Lordships' House, it had since come all orders of Liberators. The Noble Lord was mistaken to their knowledge that annually, he might say daily, there , in the view that Ile entertained respecting the Brunswick was an increase of the property held by the Roman Catho- Clubs. They were not characterised by any acts of in lice, which entitled them the more to their Lordships' at- tolerance, (Hear) which every person might be convinced tention, as the possession of time land always-gave that at- of if they would take the trouble to read the last Report tachtnent to the country which was always found to pre- of the General Committee. It was well known the danger rail far beyond any religious influence, except when the to which Ireland had been reduced by means of the unhappy operation of exclusive laws deeply affected a. nu- Catholic Association, made it necessary for the friends of merous class of the people. Ile was glad tat find that the Protestantism to unite, and show to the world at large C a tholics of Ireland were every day committed more the motives by which they were actuated. Th e Bruns strongly to the interests and fortune 01 the State. The wit k Clubs were certainly calculated to do much good.— Noble Marquis presented five petitions; one front the It was known to the Protestants of the whole Empire, county of Westmeath, and the others from Sword s and thet time Catholic. Association had used every exertion to ehdahede, in the county of Dublin, and from St. Jumbo's - throw impediments in the way of the expression of Pro- Parish, Limerick, and Charleville, in the county of Cork. testantlopioion,by every species of intimidation. On the other He also presented a petition against the Sub-letting Act, had, the ordyconfederation which the Brunswickere had eves from sonic part of Ireland. community of feeling anti community of principle. With IRISH REPRESENTATIVE PEER. - respect to the fact to which the Noble Lnrd had referred, as Lord FARNHAM then, pursuant to notice, moved that i to the display ef an Orange flag at the door of the Brunswick the petition of Lord Viscount Castlemaine against the re- ' Club-house, he believed that the Noble Lord was misinformed, turn of Lord Dunally, ass R e p resen tative Peer of Ireland, and be trusted that on further inquiry the Noble Lord be referred to the Committee of Privileges. He did so, would find that he was greatly deceived. It Was quite because this was the first case of a disputed election of a t notorious, that at the meeting of the Brunswick Club in Representative Peer since the Union, and it was desirable, i Dublin no such thing was tolerated. therefore, to proceed with circumspection. Ile wholly Lord BECTIVE said, that the flag alluded to had been morrolv. The LORD CiIANCELLOR perfectly concurred in the propriety of the coarse suggested by the Noble I.ord. The Motion was agreed to, and the Committee ordered to meet to-morrow morning.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(LAST :NIGHT.) exhibited over the house Where the Brunswick Club as sembled. Mr. S. RICE bad not hitherto said one word on any of the petitions presented to the House by Hon. Members, and the House would easily imagine that he had net ab stained because he did not feel any interest in the great question to which they related ; but he wished to reduce his mind to that state of calmness which would enable him to contemplate this subject with all the coolness and delibe ration which it ought to command. He wished to view it without any feelings of recrimination—without finding fault—without referring to past proceedings—and, above all, without looking to the past for any topics that could excite or irritate the mind.—(Hear, hear.)—He would not, therefore, make any observations on the nature, cha racter, or tendency of Brunswick Clubs throughout the kingdom, further than to say, that he trusted the Hon. and Learned Member (Mr. Moore) would not infer, from his silence, that he and his flan. Friends regarded the statements which the Hutt. and Learned Gentleman had made as being perfectly accurate. For his part. he did not want the cause he espoused to be supported by clubs or associations—he did net with any of his arguments to be derived from such a source. it might be very right, it night be very justifiable to form such bodies as had been druded to ; all that might he perfectly true ; but still it did not vary the nature of the question which they would here 'her have to diseuss.—(Hear.)—He , however, would take upon himself to say, that the stattmient which had , ieen this evening made as to the state of the Protestant feeling in Ireland by an Hon. Gentleman opposite (Colonel td by tie "a.l fa- if the Ptochiimrt), was utterly unsupportee ,y the real facts o. 4, ease.—(Hear, hear.)—lf English Members were induced would be disrespectful to the House to club the two tog e . to vote on this question, under the idea that 49-50 tbs of then —(Hear, hear.)—Reasons might be urged against the the Protestants of Ireland were arrayed against it, they one which would not apply to the other ; and he, therefore, would art under a stronger delusion then had ever before thought also that the interests of both would be rather ra been known in that House. It had been said, that 49-50ths ther retarded than forwarded by such a conjunction. But of the Protestants of Ireland, and s.6ths of the Protestants when the petitioners had asked and obttieed the remission of England,- were opposed to concession. On this point of those penalties under which they laboured, they thought he would appeal, with as much confidence now as formerly, it would be ungrateful as well as inconsistent with them if to the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department, they became partners in a monopoly of which they bad be who knew that suel was not the fact ; the Noble Secretary fore complained, and did not express the opinion contained for Ireland (Lord L. Gower.) short a time as he had been in the petition which he then held in his hand. The peti in office, al.o knew that the statement was not accurate ; tion was very short, and he should therefore wish it to be and the declaration of the great body of the Protestant no- read at length. bility and gentry of Ireland, which would he presented to The petition was then read, and ordered to be printed. 'his Majesty, would completely refute the assertion.— Mr. H. GRATTAN presented several petitions in fa (Hear, hear. )—He hoped that on this question they would your of Catholic Emancipation. not he carried away by false scents. Gentlemen might say Mr. BROWNLOW presented several similar petitions what they liked about Brunswick clubs ; but he hoped front various parishes in Armagh. that the House would not allow asperity in these debates to The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER held in divert them from the duty which they owed to the public, his hand a petition which, whether in reference to the cha to themselves, and to the gracious recommendation of his meter or to the number of signatures attached to it, was Majesty.—(Hear, hear,) deserving of the serious attention of the House. The pe- Col. ROCHFORT said that the Protestants of Ireland tition was from the Archbishop and Clergy of the diocese were against concession, in a proportion of one hundred to of Dublin. In this body were comprised men distill one.—(A laugh.) guished for their learning, eminent for their talents, eerie- Mr. TRANT said that be was not ashamed to own that retitle for their piety, and renowned for their zealous per he was a member of the Brunswick clubs, and the Protest- forniance of all the duties which attached to their sacred ants were, he thought, shamefully deserted by Government. functions. Long as this question had been agitated in A Member, whose name we could not learn, supported Parliament, this was only the second occasion in which the the line of conduct adopted by his Majesty's Governntent. petitioners bad come forward (Hear, hear); aad on nei- Mr. H. MAXWELL said he fully concurred in every ther of these occasions had they used any terms of hostility thing that had fallen from the Hon. Member for Dublin. against those to whom they were in the habit of tens.ering He gloried in being one of the founders of the Brunswick at once spiritual and temporal consolation. The petitioners Clubs in Ireland, because they were calculated to u ph o ld stated, that though they had long forborne to present peti that Constitution which his Majesty's Mieietets were now lions to that House, yet that lately the attacks against taking measures to dissolve. the Protestant establishment in Ireland had been more The petitions were then ordered to be printed. direct; that those attacks had been publicly professed; Admiral EVANS presented a petition from a parish in that the establishment itself had been called a curse the county of Wexford, praying for the suppression of the to the country ; and that they believed they should Catholic Association, and that no farther concessions may fail in their ditty if they did not now come for he granted to the Roman Catholics. After the discussion ward and pray of that House to protect, against the which had just taken place, he felt it necessary to make a machinations of men, an establishment which, under Di few observations. It appeared very strange to him to be vine Providence, had hitherto flourished so prosperously. called on to make an apology for being a Brunswicker, He was sure that the Parliament would think that the while a Prince of-that family was on the Throne.—( Hear, petitioners were bound to ask for the protection of their hear. )—lle confessed himself to have become a Bruns- privileges, and the Parliament would also think that it was wicker on purely defensive principles. He catered into hound to grant that protection.—(Hear.)—On former oc that society, because he saw Roman Catholic combinations casinos he had agreed in the view taken by the petitioners, around hint ; anti the consequence of those combinations namely, that the best and most effectual means to ensure was, that every Protestant in his neighbourhood joined this protection was by opposing the claims of the Roman the Brunswick institution on the great principle of self- Catholics ; and if, on the present occasion, he saw reasons preservation. He had seen a declaration, disseminat- for entertaining a different opinion, it was not because he ed for some time past, which ascribed all the ani. had lost sight of the dangers upon which he had formerly mosity anti all the unhappy differences that prevailed in insisted, but because he was prepared with his Right Hon. Ireland, to Catholic disabilities. But if they traced the Friend to encounter the lesser danger.—(Cheers. )--Their effect of -those disabilities here, they would find that the situation presented them with a choice between two evils, skill, the wealth, the scent icy, the prosperity of this and after a careful consideration he had become convinced country, grew out of them. That which was manna that a disunited administration, and a divided Parliament, and food from heaven in England, became poison, it were likely to prove much more prejudicial to the interests would appear, oo the other side of the Channel. of the Protestant church than the measure which he should For his own part, he could not see how laws that have the honour to support this Session. —(Cheers.)— were so wholesome on one side of the water, should be He would not now enter into the reasons of this his eon -60 very pernicious on the other as to induce men, in order victims ; but he should take an oppot tunity on a future to get rid of them, to compromise their Protestant occasion of trespassing upon the House by stating th e Constitution. His experience in lite seas not sufficiently grounds upon which lie had been induced to change his extensive to enable him to reconcile this contradiction. opinions on this question.—(Cheers.) Here wasa population of 21,000,000; of which 21,000,000 Lord MILTON was quite sure that it did not require 16,000,000 were Proteetants, and the remaining 7,000,000 the statement which the Right Hon. Gentleman had made —(hear, and a laugh)—he begged pardon—it was certainly in order to ensure the attention of the House to this peti a very gross mistake, but very soon rectified—the remain- tion. He could not help seeing that a petition from such ing 5,000,000 were Catholics. In this division of the a grave and reverend body of persons was entitled to the population t h er e was wealth, property, and intelligence on greatest respect and attention ; and the more so, because, the most numerous side, and the absence of all these on during the long period this question had been under public other.—(Cries o f o Hear.")—And yet a population so consideration, this was only the second time they had pe infinitely inferior, both in numbers and character, had, he titioned the House. confessed be was at a lore to tell why, effected such mighty The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I should things. See what they had done. They had induced the have said the third time. Minister of the Crown to say in that House that hi s senti- Lord MILTON—WeII, the third time :it made little meats on th e ques tion of Catholic Emancipation were un- difference. If this petition emanated from a deep and in changed, but that, from, the force of circumstances, h e tense interest that Government should do nothing in 6161 felt hitnself obliged to give way. Now, he was a r es id en t measures that would tend to subversion to the Protestant in Ir e l an d, an d though he gave the Right Hon. Gentle- Church ; the petitioners were not only right in what they man full c r e dit for the purest motives, yet he (Admiral had done, bu t their feelin g s were creditable and honourable Evans) d re w a v e ry different inference from that which to them.—(Hear, hear.) With the opinions which he the Ri g ht Honourable Gentleman had drawn with re- was known to entertain on this question, and with those speet t o w h a t was necessary for the preservation opinions which he wes not so well known to entertain, of th e P ro t es t an t interest in Ireland. He would say give him leave to say, that there was no question on which that the lif e o f ev e ry Protestant in Ireland was in danger. he felt greater anxiety than on the safety of the Protestant Me him se lf h a d be e n threatened—threatened from the altar Church es tablishment.—(Cheers.) Deeply should be re by time p r i es t ; a nd h e agreed, therefore, with the Right Bret, if, by any step to which he had in the remotest degree Hon. G e nt. th a t s omething must be done, but he denied contributed, the Protestant religion should he in the least that the measure in oantemplation was a proper one. He impaired.—(Hear, hear.) He seldom talked of religious could say, that the best way to secure himself and other s feelings, lie thought they were better expressed in private; was to gran t a dditi ona l arms. (Loud cries of Hear.) He but there were occasions on which men might and must thought so. And now a few words with respect to the speak ; and he believed, that if there was one man more Catholic Association. It eves agreed on all hands that deeply and rootedly attached than another to the Protestant the Catholic Association was a nuisance, and yet one Hon. r e li g ion, it was the individual who was now addreesieg Member, who had suppeeted the speech from the throne, h a d theng--(Hear, hear.)—From this he could not help p ass . lauded th a t Association, and boasted that lie himself was ing back, arid alluding to the petition which had been Are a member of it. Now, he would ask that Hon. Member, seated by his Noble Friend (Lord John Russell) behind who had agreed that the Association was a nuisance, who bite. He meant the petition from the Protestant Dissent had admitt e d that'it was an incubus, and that it ought to be bag Ministers in favour of the Roman Catholics. It was cui off, how he could reconcile it to himself to acknow- with great delight that he heard that petition read. It was ledge that lie was a member of it? He could only say impossible, as his Noble Friend had well observed, that that, in his opinion, the Constitution was certainly de- any men could be more anxious than those petitioners to parted from by th e niesie u t ee w hich the Government had guard against any encroachments on the' part of the Roman declared their intention of adopting. He did not wish to Catholics. If they who professed the Anglican Church depart fruits the Constitution, aid though be disliked ex were cautious and zealots on this subject, much mere so past facto laws, anti though what he was about to say must those petitioners he. It appeared to him that the pc might seem a little unconstitutional, yet he would say, tition which was about to be presented had not taken so that if the measure for the suppression of the C a tholic wise and clear a view as that which h a d been presented by Association were not retrospective, it would no t go f a r his Noble Friend. But, to do the petitioners jug enough. —(Cries of Hear, bear.")—He contended that tice, they were in the midst of that religion, and there were large funds now at the disposal of that body, this might be a reason for the mistake into which they and that if the m ea s ure were not retrospective, and if those had fallen. The circumstance, however, of their being funds were not appr o p r i a t e d by the Government—(Cries in the midst of that religion, under the existing state of of " Hear, hear")—much mischief might still be done, the laws, rather incapacitated than qualified them to judge of and therefore th e 'Hemel " did not go f ar enough. Unless a political measure on the subject. His anxiety on this this were done, he thou g ht th a t the House had little cause question arose from the fact, that the Protestant religion to congratulate it s elf on putting d o wn the Association, as was deeply interested in it, and he thought it an insult to far as rent was concerned. that religion and to the fou ndations on which it stood, to Mr. TUITE presented a petition from the Catholics of say, that by granting po litical p ower to the Catholics it the parish of St. Mary, Athlone, in favour of the Catholic emid be subverted. (Hear, hear.) He could not say, give Claims. The Hon. Member fully concurred in the send- political power to the Catholics, for they hail had jit Mr. V. STUART--I can assure the Ho n . M em b er , an d not political ments of Lord Bective. already. Who woul d sa y that the Catholic Association had power ? Who could forget that it sometimes I appeal to the House if it be not so, that I did not sa y the happened that injuries conferred greater political power Catholic Association was either a nuisance or an incubus. on men than concessions could ever bestow ? Let 40. or I did not apply those terms even to the Brunswick Clubs. 50 Catholics —though he did not believe the number would --(Cheers and laughter.) ever be so great—find their way Within the avails of that Mr. S. WORTLEY gave notice that on Tuesday he House, and let some dozen or a score of Catholics, though should move for leave to bring in a Bill relative to the he was sure they would not be to many find their way to Game Laws.—( Hear, hear.) the other House—what would he the consequence? Lord J. RUSSELL begged leave to call the attention Danger ? No—it would be drawing the very teeth of the House to the petition he held in his hand. It was of their grievances. (Cheers.) He did not think that the not his intention to trespass upo n th e H ouse with his own Protestant religion was made to stand fair when it sentiments on the subj e ct to whi c h th e p e tition related, was said that it could not exist without exclusions. but be felt it his duty to state those of the petitioners.— The Protesenit religion stood on the Scriptures, and The petition prayed for the removal of the civil disabilities on reason, and it could not he disturbed by the machinations t inder which the Roman Catholics l a b oure d on acc ount of of men.—(Hear, bear.)—He wished to speak respectfully their religious tenets. The Petitioners were the ministers of the Catholic religion, professed, as he was sure it was, of those Protestant Dissenters who were known under the most sincetely, by men of great piety ; bet he must eav, denominations of Presbyterians, Ind e p en d en ts, and Baptists. that in the mass, he did not think it the best religion to These denominations of Protestant Dissenters had been long flourish in a free and enlightened country.—(Hear, hear.) resilient in London , having been settled in time metropolis He believed that the bad parts of the Catholic religion ever since the Revolution ; and they bad been repeatedly al- arose out of the civil institutions of the countries in which lowed to address his Majesty on the throne. The petition- it was professed. The Catholic religion in Ireland differed era had last year petitioned against those parts of the test from the Catholic religion in France; the Catholic religion and corporation acts which related to the sacramental test, in France differed from the Catholic religion in Italy ; and and from which they wished to be relieved. He need not the Catholic religion in Italy differed from the Catholic add, that they obtained the relief they prayed for. The first religion in Spain. However, of this lie was perfectly act of the petitioners this year was, to return thanks to Pro- convinced—namely, that the Protestant religion stood eidence for the favour they had obtained ; but, in the next upon a foundation so firm, that no political power with place, they conceived it to be an act of solemn duty to ask which the Catholics might be invested could ever prevail that for others which had been extended to themselves. against it.—(Hear, hear.) They looked arotmd, and seeing that there were still upon The petition wits then read.—To be printed. the statute. book disabilities of the same nature with those The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER presented from which they had been relieved, they resolved to peti- a pe tition a g ainst the Catholic claims fro m th e Bisho p and tion for the removal of all disabilities on accouut of reliei- Clergy of the diocese of Elphin. - Also three'petitions pray ous opinions. Itenml&bc„ only in him to state, that ins that ti,e 40-shillinir freeholders might be abolished ; this resolution was net carried unanimously. There were that the Catholic Association might be suppreesed ; and that 83 Protestant Dissenting Ministers present, of whom abort high sheriffs taught be empowered at elections to tender to 15, he believed, voted against - the resolution. There eves, the candidates the seine oaths which were taken by members however, au extremely large majority in favour of the re- iu the House. solution, and there were attached to this petition the Mr. WARBURTON gave notice, that he should move names of 69 of the oust eminent Dissenting Ministers in for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate the supply of anato- London and its vicinity. The petitioners were not, in- mieel subjects. The Hon. Member also presented a peti deed, rich in revenues from the profession of their religion, I tien from the Westminster Medical Society, praying that but they were accustomed to the deep and earnest study tile supply of anatomical subjects might be taken into con of that religion, and they objected to the Church of sideration. England, because it aproximated too nearly to the Lord CLEMENT S presented two petitions from Le.trim Church of Rome. No man, therefore, could be farther in favour of the Catholic Claims. The Noble Lord said, than the petitioners were from inclining towards the Ro- I that in the prayer of these petitions, he, as he always had, man Catholic faith—(Hear, hear, bear,)—hut considering I cordially concurred. He had two other petitions from the that every man had a right to the free exercise of his eon- same county, praying for the repeal of the Sub Letting science in matters of religion, they thought it incumbent ± Act. La the prayer of these petitions he did not concur. upon thent to express their conscientious opinion that reli- He believed that the objeetions to laws enacted for Ireland gious tenets should be no bar to civil employment.—(Hear, frequently arose from the jealousy with which the people hear.)—A statement had been somewhere made tiett these lof that country viewed the acts of a legislature In Which petitioners had declared, that they bad no connexion with they had no part -..-(Hear, bear.)—He thanked troth that the Roman Catholics, and that, therefore, it was a breach the time was new at hand when Catholics would become A of faith in them to come forward now with petitions in part of the legislature, and have an opportunity to amend, favour of the Roman Catholics, This assertion was nut if amendment was necessary, the laws relating to Ireland. true A proposition was made last year that the Protes- At all events, the promised measure would hare one &stile tent Dissenters should join with the Catholics. He was, ble effect upon Irelaud—it would give the peorele cone among others, consulted upon this propositiou, and he was deuce in those who legislated for them.—( Hear.) decidedly of opinion that they ought not to petition in con- Lerd NEWBOROUGH presented several petitions from junction. His reasons fir this opinion were, that as there places in the county of Carnarvon, in favour of Catholic was a difference in the degree of disabilities, and as their Emancipation. caws stood, in many respects, upon different grounds, it PENENDEN-HEATH PETITION. Sir E. KNATCHRULL had on a preceding evaring given notice of his intention to offer to the attention and consideration of the House, a petition in reference to that claims of the Roman Catholics coining tem the county which he had the honour to represent. He had declared' that intention with the view of accommodating those 40 , 4 tlersen who were interested in this petition and in the iiro ceedinee of the meeting at which it was carried, any' he trusted that the course he had adopted had afforded ant convenience he was desirous of giving. The petitie tin quc at nis a petition from the freeholders of the ceuray of Kent, assembled under the auspices of the High SI, riff, in the usual place of meeting, for the purpose of taking the great question of the Roman Catholic claims into on sideration. He spoke in the presence of many gentla'nen who were present there, when he said that a meeting satire numerous or more respectable than the one he bad alluded to had never on any public occasion met; and he thought he might say with equal truth, that the discussions which took place there were conducted with as mash order and regularity as it was possible for discussions on a public question to he, which take place before a large assembly of I people; and the result of those diet:sssions was most un questionable and undisputed, He was quite aware, on questions of this kind, which excite so much warm feel ing, that it was not pleasing to any party to admit of the other party, that they had entirely succeeded. lie would, therefore, be satisfied, without entering into a discussion as to what was the precise majority in favour of the present petition, with stating, that the High Sheriff of the County, than whom no man could have acted with greater fairness, declared, that the question was carried by an immense majority. (hear, hear.) The meeting, at which this petition originated, was held on the great ques tion of the Catholic claims, for reasons which appeared to those who were instrumental in calling it to be imperative. The agitated state of Ireland, and the course Which events had taken in that country, were the reasons which induced the calling of this meeting, and its object was the conside ration of the Catholic claims. Those who had bean in strumental in convenieg the meeting, had viewed for a long time past the conduct of the Catholic Association in the same manner as his Majesty's Government then viewed it. They hail witnessed with alarm the collection of rent, lied, above all, that money was sent from foreign c,:untries to foment discord in this.—(Hear.)—They felt that, under the,e circumstances, they would be rendering a service to their country, if in calling for the expression of the House of Commons, they elicited an opinion fivonrable to what they then conceived to be the designs of •Government. With that view the meeting was called, and the result sins such as he had stated it. It was perfectly true he had the honour of addressing the House under very different feel ings from these he had had a right to expect. Ile addres sed the House under circumstances essentially changed, and under feelings of great and deep disappointment, not occa sioned by the persevering, and he most now add, the sue cessful conduct of those who had always been the advocates of the Catholic claims, hut because they were those per sons with whom he had concurred act opinion respecting that question, who, for reasons not satisfactory so him, had changed their opinions, and adopted a different course to which they had formerly pursned. It was not possible for him, placed as he was, to be actuated by any other feelings, and he did candidly confess, that he felt disappointed, not so much on account of the question itself, as by the way in which it was to he carried. This he personally felt as a deep disappointment. He always opr-ci the granting fortinr concessions to the Catholics on principle, and he could with equal truth and sincerity declare his hope, that if the measure should be adopted, it Might he produc tive of that good which was anticipated from it by ate ad vocates. It had been said in the conree of these debates , ungenerously he thought, that we were influenced by cer tain purposes of our own-=that we abandoned tie Right lion. Gentleman for purposes of our own. That had been said on a previous evening by a Noble Lord, the Repre sentative of the University of Cambridge, but he was quite sure it had not been said deliberately , but in the warmth of argument. It was impossible that he (Sir Edward Knatchbull) could be influenced by any object hut one, and that was a desire to dischatee his duty conscientiously. He desired nothing—he looked fir nothing on this earth. There was another point which lie wished to treat with equal fairness. He disapproved of the course which had been taken by the Right Hon. Gen tleman, amid that Right Hon. Gentleman had not fully sa tisfied his mind, if it was necessary that the measure should be introduced now, why it was not necessary to be introduced when Mr. Canning was Minister.—(Hear.) — Though he much disapproved of the course which the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken, he did not mean to in isnuate that he was actuated by a love of office. He thought it but fair to make this statement. He repeated he thought time Right Hon. Gentleman was actuated by cease of public duty, and by no mean unworthy motive.-- We were told that we had better give up our opposition to the measure at once, if we found that our efforts were not ' likely to be successful. Ti this was the course which the Members of that House were to pursue, that when they saw no chance of succeeding in their endeavours, at once to abandon their duty, to what inevitable mischief would it lead?—(He - ne )—He thought, however, it was their duty on that account to persevere the more. Protestant ism and the COnstitution of them country were about to be invaded, and be would endeavour to the last moment to defend them ; anal in the course which he and ether gen' tlemen who entertained the same opinions should follow on this question, he wished it might not be thought that they were about to e4,,er upon a factious opposition. This was a question, upon which, of all others, the sense of the country should he taken and well understood; and he thought it did not become them, nor would he be a party to excite any intemperate feeling of the public. That was not a course to which he would be a party, nor did he think that it would be adopted by those who meant to oppose.the proposed measure of relief. He knew doukte of that sort were entertained, and he declared that, a' far as he was individually concerned, the opposition he should offer to the measure would be founded on different a in ciples.—(Hear.)—He Would say a word with refer ace to the prayer of the petition. The petition was agree to und. r . the presumption that it was supporting the s .00 of Government, and it prays the House to take care that the Protestant Constitution be preserved entire. He had no desire to conceal from the House—indeed, nice :of the Members present must know—that the debat, et, the meeting in Kent turned on the question ° 5 granting political power to the Catholics, by winch was understood granting them seats in Palla ment; lie entertained no unkind or hostile feel ing towards the Catholics—be was desirous that they should posaess every thing that the Constitution mild with safety grant. But lie was apprehensive that if political power were granted them, they would then Pesetas the means to injure the Constitution which it was our d e ter.. urination to protect. That was the principle upon which of i e oi m mp e 6 e s t i i n n g g, th a e ndwh measure that view declareditieestiiniwas argued his intention ti atn Gov e rnment. It had been stated, that al! this petition wa s 'a o signed before the delivery of his Majesty's speech to Perlin ment, ,it did not now express the opinions of the peti tioners. In that assertion there was much ingenuity , hot lie was quite satisfied, both from his own personal know ledge, and by - communication with other individnale , that no alteration - hid taken place in the opinions of the peti tioners since his Majesty's speech 'tad been delivered t° Parliament. He understood that a petition of a different nature, which was called a counter petition, was to be pre sented to that Home. In the county ,of Kent, as well 0 in that House, a difference of opinion existed, halt he maintained that a large majority of the county were ad verse to the adoption of the Roman Catholie chines: The ita o t e meeting was attended by persons in favour of the question! who possessed great :wealth, power, and influent e, from this circumstance the petition, which waseadoetedi° opposition to them, ought to be conajdered, aiaexpreseing the opinion of the county. If these ; gen-lemen of Wealth,