The Sun. — London, England, 1858-06-08 00:00:00

-- - to establish the whole principle of the Indian army and the Indian Government in direct violation of the Mil of Rights. He would not further demand the assent of the committee. He submitted these views perfectly bena fide. The question before them was not whether they would refrain altogether from legislation, but whe ther they:Would persevere is an attempt at final legisla tion, w h e n it was impossible any legislation c ould be final. or satisfactory. The hon. and learned member for Sheffield need not be afraid ; even if this resolution was adopted, the hon. and learned gentleman would have abundance of discussion 'on his proposal, and ample op portunity of bringing it to an issue. He submitted bis view with confidence to the house. He believed he pro posed as: much as could be done with safety. It made a considerable change, and that in harmony with the vote to which the house had arrived. If they thought fit at a future period to proceed further, his motion would form no impediment. On the contrary, it would give them some practical experience —(hear)—of the mode of carrying into operation the union of the executive mini ster with an independent council. After twelve months they would be in a much better position to arrive at a definitive solution of the question of Indian legislation. What was the object of the extraordinary haste 4 They were told it was to have the benefit of the authority of the Crown in India. By his proposal they would have the benefit 6 of that authority. They were told it was desirable to make Parliament more cognisant of Indian affairs, to bring the public opinion of England to bear on them, and inspire the people with a deeper feeling of the responsibilities they had contracted. What was required to direct the attention of the people of Eng land to that country, so long as mail after mail brought tidings of new bodies of insurgents in arms, of new disturbances in the districts that had been re-cieenpied ; so long as each mail tells that the best blood of England is being spent in war, under all the disadvantages of the hot season. There was Ito danger that the attention of the British people would not be kept directed to it. There was only one other ground for proceeding with legislation at this moment. It might have happened that the whole administrative system had broken down. So far from that being the case, hoviever, he was honestly bound to say that the system of government in Leadenhall-street could not be considered to have broken down as an administrative system. It might be that as a nation we were not en dowed with administrative talents. He had no special leaning towards the East India Company. All his as sociations were with the ordinary machinery of govern ment; but he must say that the government of the East India Company and the Government of the Crown bad been tested as administra'ions under circumstances of great suddenness and great pressure, and he must say that the East India Company, so far from having failed, had discharged their duties in a manner to entitle them to the lasting gratitude of the country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had lamented the want of information in the house and country. That was the case. He would put a test to the committee. Had any one of them heard any gentleman say, "If you want to get up the India question, read the debates ? " On the contrary, he had heard rather irreverent remarks, that they had dogma tised without knowledge, and marched forward without considering whether they had before them a path or a precipice. He did not find any one incline to give them the credit they obtained on that subject of showing they were masters of their business and knew what they were about. He had ventured to introduce his views to the house as involving no party difference, no personal con sideration, but as his honest opinion after candid con sideration. So far as his intention and convictions were concerned he had honestly attempted to give effect to the judgment of the house—so far an it bad already been declared—and to carry out the important changes they had decided on. He believed he had suggested the course best adapted to the maintenance of their own dignity, and most in consonance with their duty and obligation to maintain, study, and promote the interests of the people of England. (Loud cheer?.) Lord STANLEY said,—Knowing as I do, and k now - lug as this house does, the power with which the right hon. gentleman treats every subject with which ho has to deal—knowing tho sympathy which such an amend . ment as that he has put on the paper could not fail to command in this house—knowing, moreover, how easy it is, eve❑ for those gifted with far inferior powers, to assign on almost any subject plausible reasons in favour of delay and in favour of hesitation with reference to any decided course which it has been proposed to take, I cannot be surprised that the speech of the right hon. gentleman should have produced, as undoubtedly it has done, a considerable impression on the house. (Hear.) Bnt though I quite allow that the object and purpose of the right hon. gentleman's amendment are different in some respects from the objects and purposes formerly submitted in the same spirit to the house, yet I could not hut think, when I listened to the right hon. gentle man, that some of the arguments he most strenously employed were arguments which I had heard before, and that at no distant date. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman dwelt on the time at which we prcpose to make this change, on the disturbed state of affairs is India, on the dangers of party spirit, and on the com plexity and iLtricacy of the subject with which we have to deal. These topics and arguments have all been touched on before ; they were all urged by the noble lord the member for Durham (Lord H. Vane) some six weeks ago ; and what was the decision at which the house arrived ? After a debate of scarcely two hours, the the proposition then made in favour of postponing the discussion of this subject was negatived, not by a bare majority, but by one of the most overwhelming majori ties ever recorded in this house. (Hear, hear.) What are the objections to procesding with the measure of the Government ? The right hen. gentleman objects to proceeding with it at this time of the year, and he has re ferred to a late motion ma le in this house as indicating the spirit in which it is likely Indian affairs will be dis cussed. He has adverted also to the continuance of the war is India, and he has told us of the great intricacies and difficulties of the question. Now, with regard to the question of time, I will not go back beyond the pre cedent of 1856, though I may just mention in passing that on almost all former occasions when this house entered upon the renewal of the East India charter the duty was undertaken at a period of the year quite as advanced as this. (Hear, hear.) But to go no further back than 1856, I may remind the house that though the questiOn of the Home Government of India was not then dealt with in so comprehensive a manner as now, yet in the bill introduced by the right hon. gentleman the member for Halifax no slight or unimportant changes were imported into-the system of government. (Hear, hear.) Let me also remind the house that we are now beginning anew to deal with this subject. We have had before us ever since February the plan of the late Go vernment. Since December last we have had intimations of that plan being in progress, for we were then told that Indian affairs would call for our most serious considera tion. Ever since that time, and, indeed, for months _before, every newspaper and every review has been fall of the subject, and the public mind has been called, as it never was before, by occurrences of the most dreadful . kind, to consider the question of Indian administration. (Hear, bear.) I venture to repeat what I said on a for mer occasion, that I do not believe you can ever have a more favourable occasion than the present to =alder this subject. It would be a strange confession of weakness and incapacity if, after' six months' definitive notice, and after the attention of all England has been called for twelve months to Indian affairs, we were now to declare that we were incompetent to make a perma nent settlement—l do not say of the whole Indian clues.: tion, but a settlement of that part of the question with which alone we are called to deal. The right hon. gen tleman speaks of the effect and influence of party spirit on this question. The noble lord the member for Durham six weeks ago preceded him on that topic ; but the noble lord the member for Durham bad not the advantage of some events which have since occurred. The right hon. gentleman referred to a late event, the memory of which is fresh with us all, as affording an unfavourable indication of the manner in which Indian questions are treated in this house. Remembering that event—remembering the debate that took place, and the conclusion the house came to, I am inclined, from pre oliely the sarce premises, to draw a Precisely opposite conclusion. I think many were led at that time to sup port the Government of the day from a scrupulous desire not in any manner to bring India within the scope of party conflict in this house. (Hear) With regard to the state of the insurrection in India I have no wish to mis lead the house. I agree with the right hon. gentleman when he tele us that the war now being waged in India is net at an end. I agree with him that, though the worst is new over, the war is far from being at an end. am afraid in some districts, though it may not be a war erilous to the empire, that thoso military operations will be long. I fear that they will be harassing to the troops, and may involve a considerable sacrifice of valu able lives. But how far, and to what extent, does that state of affairs impede our proceedings in the work of re ??nstruction of the home government of I n di a ? (H ear .) F or 12 months that war has raged, for six months the whole question has been open, and it has been publicly announ ce d, o n th e high est authority, that the existing se_ste m of th e I ndian Government at home is discredited. ea there bee n e effect that any complaint—has it been sa'd that carrying o n 01 operation , ann?un cemen t h as b een to i mpe le the in India o r t o di m i n i s h th e public s pi r i t of those gentleman appealEd wtohthlare employed ? The right bon. and asked whether, eernoble lord the member for Tiverton, , st if the noble lord:had known the dimensions which this di ba e in India was about to assume, he would have proceededurll with his proposed course of egislation But we stand Trent pnsition him, th h a from that in which the noble lord stoo d. The the lord promptitud e in ecasrtate thought, and I am far from blaming of affairs in India required greater un the Indian business at home, and was one of theryriene, eons alleged by him for entering on that course of then. We are in a different position now. It 13 not in our power to deal with this matter as if the qu es ti on had not been raised. (Hear.) The question has been ra i ne d , and the confidence of all persone.in the system and me, chanism by which the administration of Indian affairs at home is carried on has been diminished. It seems to Inc that the only manner of restoring that confidence — and it is nom more important than ever that it should be felt in the administration of Indian affairs—is to close up again as speedily as possible, and as permanently as Pos' THE St* LONDON, TUESDAY E V ENING, J ETNE 8, 1858. eesen-e--. ------- (Lear, hear.) The right- hon.. gentleman spoke , of_ sible, that part of the question which has been open t e h t din am far ,'rom denying that it is a most contplexity and difficulty of this In d d i ka c n a le h has con prob!em ; but I think the right hon. question .lt an in tricate problem founded two thin gs in India, ' the administration of Indian affairs namely, which are esTgeneutitall7adistinct— d control over the is to e xercise a general direeticli n hahon. gentleman has and the cooposition of that body which in this country ent. The rips bout which a states- Indian Governe: opened some of the widest questions vv.. t o ld us of Iled to deal. He has • n ase o f man can possibly be 0 the necessity of giving an open car eer to the neti India and of elevating them i n the social scale ; he has - told us how social improvement is necessarily connected with some degree of political power ; and with all that he said on that subject, and with the high authority he quoted to confirm his op inion, I fully and entirely con cur. But I agree wi th him also when he says—and there 'he seemed to be replying to his own argument— that the present is not the time to deal with those par ticular questions, because, at present, when feelings of hostility exist against our Government on the part of the native population, to raise such questions would only exasperate the enraitp already existing, and, therefore, that that was not a part of the Indian subject with which it was possible to deal at the present moment. Again, he told us of the relations between the military services of India and England. He said that the relation between the English and the Indian armies was not noticed in any of the resolutions before the coun try. Undoubtedly it was not 'so noticed, and that for precisely the reason which he alleges. There is an inquiry at present going on, or about to commence, on the subject of the reorganization of the native army in India. A. larger and more general inquiry on the relations between the army employed in India and the Executive here will be carried on in this House. A full investigation will be entered on in reference to that sub ject, and when that investigation is completed we shall be prepared to give the result to the public. Bat the right hon. gentleman throughout his argument proceed ed on an assumption in which I should regret if the House were to share. He assumed, if we were to go over the questions connected with the Indian adminis tration and attempt to settle any such questions per manently now, that so soon as the Bill which we shall shortly bring in was passed the House would refuse to reopen any part of the Indian subject, and a door would be closed against all - future reform. I should deeply regret if such were - likely to be the case ; but I am sure that if at one and the same time, and in one and the same measure, any Government were to attempt to deal with all those questions touching the political status of the native population, the relations between the native and European armies, and those between the Governor-General and the Executive here, the result would be that no measure would be passed, and pro bably the whole session would be consumed by fruitless discussion, while the recollections which it would leave behind would probably operate powerfully to prevent any future Minister or any Parliament undertaking to deal with the subject in a comprehensive manner. (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman has stated the ob jections which he entertains to the course proposed by the Government, and I must state in a few words what are the objections which I entertain to the course pur sued by him. The right hon. gentleman wishes to con stitute the present Court of Directors a Council for ad ministering the Government of India in the name of the Queen, under the superintendence of a responsible Minister of the Crown, until the end of the next session of Parliament. In the first place and principally I object to any such mode of proceedure because it seems to me that you would place those who were to compose such a council fuse singularly false and inconvenient position. (Hear.) You would tell them that they were doomed, and their term of power would saon expire, that no efforts they could make, no energy they could show, and no public spirit they could display would avail to prolong that term of power. (Hear) Would not the inevitable effect of placinn such men, however able and laborious', in a position like that, be to a great extent to diminish the zeal and energy with which the public business would be carried on ? (Cheers.) But it is not merely as re garde the directors themselves that I think the proposal objectionable. You mast also look to the effect it would proince on the public mind. (Hear.) When you say a certain body whom you would intrust with consider able power is to lose that power at the end of a not very lengthened term,—when you say openly or by implica tion, that the enly reason they are allowec to continue in the possession of power for that short term is the diffi culty of finding a substitute, the effect must ne to impair the annfidence which the public will feei in them, and to discredit them before the - eyes both of England and of India. (Cheers.) We have ourselves experienced the inconvedience which is apt to arise when there occurs in our Parliamentary Government a period* during which Ministers only hold office until their successors are ap• pointed ; and we have found that during two or three weeks or even a month all public business comes to a standstill, and great inconvenience has accrued to the publica service; and I must say that, in my opinion, we should bo creating a similar inconvenience, but upon an infinitely larger scale and at a most dangerous tfme, if we, by telling the Court of Directors that they might hold their tenure of power until the end of next session, were to make them a discredited body, while at the same time we announced to them that the only reason wbish induced ns to continue power in thoir hands was our unwillingness at the present time to lay down any scheme for the permanent Government of India. (Hear.) If we were to adopt that coarse at this critical period in our Indian affairs we should certainly discredit the East India Company, for, while leaving in their bands a great administrative authority, we should nevertheless tell them that we intended, and that at no very distant period, to deprive them of that authority, and that because we disapproved of the system upon which they wielded it. The intention of the right hon. gentleman undoubtedly is to do away with that which is thought by some to cause a great part of the inconve nience which has been complained of—l mean the ex'st ence of a doable government and the existing system of separate offices. No es, Ido not think that the plan sug gested in the resolutions of the right hon. gentleman even effects the object which he wishes to effect. All that the proposal of the right hon. gentleman amounts to ic, not that the Board of Control ehould be abolished —not that the President of the Board of Control for the time being should assume the functians of President of the Council in Leadenhall-street ; bat he proposes to re tain the two offices and the present system of communi cation between them, but to give the President of the Board of Control, whenever he might be so inclined, an optional power of going to Leadenhall-street, and being when there, the Chairman of the Court cf Director,. Now, looking at that substantive proposition, I cannot conceive that it could effect any economy of time or sav ing of labour, or that it would be productive of any good -to the public service. At present the chairman of the Court of Directors is invested with great powers, and consequently with gr ea t respo ns ibility, and certainly his authority would be impaired if be were only to be chair man when the President of the Board of Control did not happen to come down and assume his function?. I do not think that such a plan would conduce to the good working of the department, but that is a question of de tail, and I do not wish to rest upon it ; but my objec tion to the proposal before the house plainly and briefly is that it does not attempt any permanent settlement of the question. When I tall: of a permanent settlement, I don't mean to say that, when we have arranged the question between Leadenhall-street and Cannon-row, we shall have made any very great progress in reforming local administration in India —a subject, doubtless, which requires great care and attention ; but, so far as regards that part of legislation for India with which we at present propose to deal, I confidently hope that even at this period, and notwithstanding the delays which have taken place, we shall be able during the present session to come to a permanent settlement of the ques tion. (Cheers.) Sir C. LEWIS concurred with the noble lord the President of the Board of Trade in the opinion that this amendment was a repetition of the one brought forward by the honourable member for the county of Durham. ' The motion was a dilatory one, and could lead to no advancement in the question be,fore the committee. Bat if these resolutions vtere agreed to, they would lead prac tically to very serious results. If the board of directors were to act as a council, they must cease to act as direc tors, and must give up their independence of character. If they were to place, as was proposed, the board of directors in juxtaposition with the President of the Board of Control, this would solve the whole question which the house was "called upon to decide as to the form and constitution of the proposed council. The second r eso l ut i on was not consistent with the first, and e ouhl not be adopted if the first were agreed to. Ile hoped, theref ore , that the committee would not hesitate were to proceed w i t h the resolutions before the house, which hear., at) H all events, practical and consistent. (Hear, e said th at to deal with the that house was perfectly competent if they were t o wh o le wait subject of Indian legislation, and no more light wouliclnbtiel next year or the following year confessed hims e lf so far thrown on th e su bj ec t. H e fromthinking that there was any difficulty in the matter, ho His only wonder w as t hat thought it was perfectly clear. the constitution h of the trusted entEeaed East tlhnadtiaa Company y h rheafdorrmemawais rem ai nedso now ab long, and to sweep it away. Mr. LIDDELL did not think it ou!fp l r to the amend mentoa to describe it as a mere m ethod o s ubject of Indian legislation. NV Was it t no postponing the i the amendment to bring the council of India undearuge Ten sible Minister ? The amendment involved very c;lnri derable change, but it was a change which was fout.ded on safety. A g reat change had lately come over the opinions of that house, and it was only now that they were beginning to see the danger in which they might be involved in entering upon Indian legislation. w as there ever a moment when the machine of Governam:A was charged with a weight of duty so overrun as at the present moment, and would it not be dangerous to st)p it even for a moment ? In every scheme that had been proposed the principle of a council was embraced. That being the case, what more reasonable than the amend ment of the right hon. gentleman, which woeld continue a council which had proved itself experienced and faith ful, The noble lord the member for Tiverton bad said that there was a great deal in a name, and therefore he proposed to introduce the name of the Qa:en. Ernst how had the name of the Queen been introduced ? Why) by the Oude proclamation. Would that forcibly inseere confidence in the people of India ? The name of the East India Board was well known in India, and there fere he should unhesitatingly give his support to the, amendment. Mr. DRUMMOND said his objection to no two bills which had been before the hence wag, that they did not touch the government of India. Thera had been acne hocus pecu3 about the home government, but what he considered as the government of India was that which was beet for the people of India. He did not .hank the country was well indtructed upon what had ueen going on in the Indian legislatuie. There was pro found ignorance, too, as to . the conduct of the Engltsh to ------ the natives of India. He read the opinions of Sir F. Shore, who stated -that the natives were treated by the English with the utmost superciliousness. Few English men returned the salute of a native, and they never spoke to them with civility. All servants, natives, were treated with the greatest harshness by the English. The origin of this was, that it was supposed to be the best means of keeping up the dignity of the English. The treatment by the English was tyran nical and brutal. All these statements were corrobo rated by Lord William Bentinck. Was it to be supposed that these things did not rankle in the minds of the natives ? The Italian maxim applied as I much to India as anywhere else—" Vengeance sleeps, -1, never dies," There was dissatisfaction enough in bus "se half a dozen rebellions. Was not torture India r,,. -ant British province by the lower subor practised in es - -.vent? There could be no doubt dinates of the Goe".!!" - - , ,ssnial of Sir James Hogg, of it, notwithstanding the - 4 eel What was the law Mr. Mangles, and Mr. Elliot. ..- . e foreign lan- applied to the natives ? Why, it was - :, . guage, and was administered by foreign officials, _and one of the panaceas for the government of India was to I send out more English lawyers. The fact was India was looked upon as a country to be exploited for the civil service. If India was continued to be looked upon as merely a country for plunder, we should assuredly lose it ultimately. He thought it would be wise at once to issue a proclamation in the Queen's name, and take possession of Oude in her name. That would create the belief in the native mind that the Government would be carried on for the happiness of the people. - Mr. CUMMING BRUCE had al ways been extremely anxious that the Queen's name should be introduced into the Government of India. He thought the first Council for India should be the Council of the East India Company. The noble lord had said that the henna would stultify itself by adopting the amendment, but he (Nlr. C. Bruce) denied that public expactatisn would be much disappointed by delay. He could not agree with the honourable member for Pontefract that the East India Company had been treated with any dis respect either by the present Government or that of the noble lord the member frit. Tivertor. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken of its labours in terms of the highest commendation, comparing it with the great Venetian Republic. He should cordially support the amendment, and if it were rejected should press his own which was kindred in spirit. (Hear, hear.) - Mr. LO WE expressed himself at a loss to understand the bearing of the amendment. Its terms were vague, and it was difficult to ascertain the re lations which were to subsist between the Minister and the Court of Directors in the new provi sional Government. The amendment proposed to maintain the powers of the Board of Control. But how could they be preserved without preserving the correla tive powers of the East India Company. The right hon. gentleman proposed that despatches should first be sub mitted to a committee, and then be referred to the full Court of Directors. This was the course at present ; but i if repeated under this proposal how would that intolera ble delay now complained of be obviated 7 No ground had been laid by the right hon. gentleman for his specific scheme, or why a provisional government should be adopted instead of a permanent one. Nothing bad been advanced why delay was preferable to action. The only reason urged in favour of the change was, that delay would give an opportunity for procuring information on the subject of India generally. The proposal of the right hon. gentleman would aggravate instead of removing the difficulties to be encountered ; his proposition was a tem porary measure, opening up a vast number of embarrass ing questions without settling any of them. It would be better to face these difficulties manfully, and not sanc tion a provisional government., which would have neither ,he prestige of the old one nor anything to recommend it in itself. (near.) Mr. A. MILLS thought that in the face of the multi plicity cf amendments on the paper, brief speeches; would be preferable to long ones, (Hear.) Without impugning the grammatical accuracy of the amendments of the right hon. gentleman, he doubted whether any clause could be framed to carry out his intentions. He gathered from the amendments that it was intended that the beard of directors and the Board of Control should be so far amal gamated as tisat the evils of the double government should be obviated. He could not see, however, how these evils would be removed by enabling the President cf the Board of Control occasionally to preside at the meetings of the Council. (Hear, hoar.) He deprecated delay in grappling with this question, believing the same difficulties which had now to be met would be rife two years hence. If the measure passed with the amendments now proposed, it would still only be an ini tiatory step towards a scheme for the government of India. He expressed his extreme reluctance in being unable to support the proposition of the right hon. gen tleman, on the ground of the necessity for an immediate and comprehensive legislation. (Hear, hear.) Col. SYKES said the proposition of his right hon. friend to call in the present board of directors to the aid of the Minister was a very simple one. The administra tire capacities of the present board of directors bad been sneered at, but 15 out of the 18 were intimately ac quainted with the affairs of India. This sneer, therefore, might be sent to that limbo to which other paradoxes uttered on this , question had been consigned. (A laugh.) Urging the claims of the present form of government, he maintained that theCourtof Proprietors A al a agar. valve for the disoore,ent which might from time to time ari.e in India, and which if dealt with in Pasliarnent would be made the pivot fur party strife. Ho combatted the statements of the hon. member for Surrey with re spect to the character of the European population in India. If their conduct had been such as had been de scribed, they would have been chased out of India long ago. If the boo. member for Surrey were to attend one of the Addiscembe meetings, and the weekly meeting of the committee, -he would find that the pupils were en joined in the strongest terms to not in a kind spirit to the natives of India when they went out there. Parlia ment was about to change a form of government under which 181 millions of the natives of India had been ruled, but these millions bad never bean consulted in the slightest manner on the subject of the patronage to be exercize I under the new scheme of government. The hoe, and gallant member read the opinions of two or three native Indians on passing events in this country, which had been recently forwarded to him. A Parsee, a man of wealth and education, whose family had been con neeted with Bombay ever since its transference from the Portuguese, declared to him, in a late communication, that the English Parliament were proceeding in ignorance of the real state of affairs in India, and expressed a hope that the English Government would not, with regard to India, follow the example of their colonial mismanage ment. This Parsee warned the Parliament of the danger of interfering with caste, and recommended the English Government to reform their own social regulations be fore meddling with those of India. Were not the people themselves to be consulted, and was it not fair that the wishes of the 120 mittens they were to legislate for should be consulted ? Was that not necessary to con -1 ciliate them ? In India, before an act was passed, a no tice was given in the Government Gazette, and an interval of three months was allowed that the desires of the people eh old be ascertained. Why, then, should a question afflicting their interests be passed hastily without con sulting them I If the population of India were consulted, pine -tenths of them would be found to be adverse to the proposed measures. He hoped they would consider this point, and not take a course which would exclude further discussion. Let time be given for distrust to subside. Mr. BOVILL reminded the house that a resolution had been passed that it was essential that there should be some legislation for India, and members on both sides concurred in that opinion. It was because the resolution of Mr. Gladstone promoted delay that he opposed it. It appeared impossible that any bill should pass both houses after the resolutions bad bean discussed. The first question for them to decide had been whether the rule of the East India Company should continue, and it had been agreed that they should proceed to legislate. The principle had been affirmed by two Governments and by a majority that there should be a council. The principal difficulty was as to the constitution of that council. He proceeded to analyse the several propos:- 1 tinns which bad been made. There would be an ample opportunity for the opinions of the people of India to be taken. He supported the original resolution. Mr. D. SEYMOUR could not understand the argu ment that the tendency of the resolution of the right hon. gentleman would lead to a calming of the pub lic mind in India. They had decided on a change, and it would be injurious to adjourn the settlement of the question for 18 months. Who was to answer despatches? A divided authority would be a cause of great inconve nience. The hon. member for Aberdeen had said that the press had unsettled the public mind in India. Did not his speech unsettle their minds still more when he said there bad been public meetings and that it was in tended to interfere with their religion ? Would he not do more to calm it if he said that in the Legislature there had been no such speeches ? They knew that there was no authority above that of this house. Mnst they not have seen in the debates in this house that we had no disposition to an interference with their religion, and that we were actuated by a Christian spirit ? The direc tore of the Eist India Company had not been actuated by such a spirit. The people of India would not believe that we, who were so devoted to our own religious liberty, would interfere with theirs. He was sorry that there had been an estrangement of late between the sepoys and their officers. The house was pledged to legislation, and he wondered that a motion was proposed so opposite to the expressed opinion cf the house. We should show the natives that we were determined and resolute, and would not hastily discuss the question for the sake of our recreation a month hence. He therefore hoped the house would not n onsent to the adjournment. The house then divided, when the numbers were— For the original motion 265 For the amendment .• • 116 Majority —l49 THE INDIAN COUNCIL. Mr. ROEBUCK then addressed the committee in op position to the council. He said—Were I to consult only the probabilities of success in the proposition I have to make, I sheull certainly be Counted, for I am tolerably sure th ere will be an immense majority rwßaurdt w t h a z a t y ta pro m p e os i i s ti , n n o ; n w ew hic t h hio a b g ro a u i n g s h t t i f t rejected, but which aft erwards became the creed of this g. were h fi a r v :t house. (Hear, hear.) Some years ago I contended for a particular course being followed in our colonial policy, and was always outvoted, but a time came when that which had been so often rejected, almost ith scorn, became the creed of the Colonial Minister. (Hear, hear.) I am not daunted, therefore, at the pros pect of a large majority against me. (Hear.) This hou e has resolved—first, thac the Government of India shalt be transferred from the Court of Directors to the Crown; .text it has decided that the power of the Crown shall be t serelsed by a Miniter of State; and now it is pro pose to give to that Minister of State a council to aid and counsel him. _ It is against this last proposition that I now address the house. I must remind the house of a distinction to which allusion has been made to-night, but not sufficiently dwelt upon—l mean the distinction be tween the Government of India that is in England, and the Government that is in India. With this last point we have now nothing to do , --the resolution before us concerns the Home Government of India only, and the question we have to answer is, whether there shall be a Secretary of State by himself alone, and responsible for his own acts, or whether he shall be aided by a council. I adhere to the first. I say that a single Secretary of State, responsible for all his acts, and being himself his own guide and counsellor, ought to be alone the Gover nor of India. hold this view, first, on account of the mental and moral benefit which& tnau derives from act ing alone. He has a more distinct and pressing interest in what he has to do than a man who shares his respon sibility with others, and therefore mentally and morally he is a stronger man, and better able to carry on the go vernment with vigour. (Hear) I have beard it said, ". Why, under your plan, only fancy India governed by the2'hon. gentleman the member for Northampton." (A. laugh.) Well, we have seen India governed by the right hon. gentleman the member for Northampton, and governed without responsibility. Bat d am told the days of responsibility are over, and that we on't now deprive Ministers of their heads, but of their places. (A. laugh.) I have, however, seen three notable instances of the results of responsibility. I have seen the Government • of Lord Aberdeen turned out because the people of England thought their honour was not safe in their hands. I have seen the Government of the noble lord the member for Tiverton turned out of power for the same reason. I have seen the almighty power of this from th' e th erea l s ky, house h ,, u_rl him hea fr d o l m ong hi fi s a p ra la in ce g With hideous ruin and combustion, down To bottomless perdition." (A. laugh.) I have seen, on this very business of India, a President of the Board of Control driven from power simply by the expression of opinion —not by a resolu tion—in this house and out of doors, and that within a few weeks past. Shall any man tell me, then, that there is no responsibility ? Aye, but it is said, there was at that time, when he was so driven fr om p ower , a B oar d of Directors. Does not everybody know that the Board of Directors was at that time destroyed, and that the very fact of his being responsible was because he acted by himself alone ! And did he not say that he acted by himself, without their consent and without consulta tion with them, and that he was answerable for his con duct? And did not the house and the country accept that statement, and punish him for his conduct ? I don't say the house or the country was right ; but what I say is that, believing he was so responsible, they punished him for his act. This is the only constitutional responsibility in fact, and the milder manners of modern times, which do not allow us to cut off the heads of Mi nisters—(a laugh)—by allowing us to displace them make them responsible to us for their acts. But, it may be said, a Council is necessary for the purpose of afford ing advice. Well, then, we have to consider the Coun cil which into aid this Indian Minister, first, as to the men from whom it is to be derived ; next, as to the manner of its election ; then as to its tenure of office ; and again, as to its power. With respect to the men from whom it is to be derived, I have in this house spoken of the class who are generally called " Old Indians." I am told that a large proportion of the men who are to assist and advice this Minister of the Crown are to be selected from that class of Old Indians. • The right honourable gentleman the member for the University of Oxford made upon nee a somewhat weak joke. He said, "Tae hon. and learned gentleman takes exception exactly to those men who have some means of acquiring knowledge." I am going to speak of old In dians, but not of my own authority, and the right hon. "gentleman must pardon me if I eay his authority in mat ters of Government is not possessed of any great weight. (A laugh.) Invariably have I found the right hen, gen tleman opposing almost all the advances made by man kind since I have been in this house. • (Oh, oh.) I recol lect that, upon that very question of colonial adminis tration, among my most formidable opponents was the right hon. gentleman. I think he also opposed the free trade measure. But it is not for me to eay that the right hon. gentleman has not many claims to the admiration of this house. (Cheers.) He has a most captivating eloquence, but he wants judgment to guide it. (Laughter.) In fact, his mind is like a tangled web.- It is a thing marvellous to look at, but utterly useless for any practical purpose. (A. laugh.) I am going to put against his authority that of a very different man, who deeply dived into all human thoughts, who ransacked human nature, in order to understand and guide it. I mean Mill, the historian of British India. You are told to consider the advantage you would derive from framing a Council of Old Indians for the guidance of the Indian Minister ; and I would have you recollect the mode in which the Anglo-ludiap acquires knowledge, He goes out to India a youth aid has very little power of acquir ing a knowledge of mankind. He studies a language or two. He is segregated from his own class, and sent at once to govern. Now, Mil', in the preface to his history, discusses the question of the advantages which the his torian of British India would derive from going to In dia, and says that the powers of observation in every in dividual ate exceedingly limited, and it is only by com bining the observation of a number of individuals that a c. o npetcnt knowlc,ige of any extensive subject can be acquired. Now, let us recollect that our domi nions in India extend from the Himalayas to Caps Co rocrin. There are, I believe, in that space 30 different nations, all speaking- very different languages, and all having very different customs, as different as Italy is from Danmark ; and I would suppose a traveller going to Italy was called on to legislate for Denmark. You know what that wouli mean. For the same reason a man who had passed his life in the Punjab would be as unable to legislate for Travancore as a man living in Naples would be to legislate for Denmark. My hon. friend the member for Surrey quoted opinions concerning the moral condi tion of gentlemen who have gone to India, but I have only to do now with their intellectual character. Lord Teigntnouth points out in emphatic language the diffi culty of acquiring a requisite amount of knowledge to enable us to govern India by reminding his readers of the magnitude of our acquisitions there, the character of the people placed under our dominion, their difference of language, their dissimilarity in other respects, and that we began our rule in the country in ignorance of its former government. I could also quote to the same end the authority of Lord H. Bentinck, Sir H. Stachey, Sir J. Malcolm, and other distinguished men—in short, that of all the men of mind who have gone to India. I do not mean to say that the mere going to India totally unfits a man for governing India, but I say, that taking the mass of men who have gone there, the mere fact of a man having been in India gives him no greater power of go• verning that country than he could have acquired by study and reflection at home, and, in fact, not so much so far as regards knowledge of the feelings and habits of the people. Now, Sir, I come to the question, by whom is the proposed Council to be selected ? It is said partly by the Crown and partly by election. Now, if I know/ any thing of this house—and I have had a long experience in it—l -am confident that the doctrine of ulection in this matter will not be received—in short, that it will be scouted ; and the real fact will be that the appointment to this Council will be in the hands of the Ministers of the Crown, for when we say that it will be in the hands of the Crown, we mean that it will be in the hands of the responsible advisers of the Crown. "Oh," but says the right hon. gentleman " that will be an enormous power to confer upon a Minister." Now, what power is it proposed to confer on the Minister ? Why it is pro posed to corder on the Government of the day the power of electing persons who will be screens to those who elect them, and for . that reason I object to any one hav ing such power of election; but at the same time, if it is determined to confer upon any one that power of elec tion, I think that the person who is responsible to this house is as likely to he a good elector as any holder of so much India stock. (Hear.) The right bon. gentleman member f r the University of Oxford has proposed to form the Council from the existing Board of Directors. Now, the existing Board of Directors has been elected by the holders of India stock, and I would ask the house do you consider that gentlemen so elected would be more responsible or would be better chosen than persons chosen literally by this house ? I say literally chosen by this house, because it is by this house that the Mini ster is chosen by whom the Council is to be chosen, and therefore it is by this house, in the last resort, that the Council would be chneen ; and I ask you if you confider that holders of ladle stock form a better elective body than this house? (Rear.) Oh, but it is said you are putting into the hands of the Government of the day a vast engine of corruption. Now, as regards the ques tion of the virtue of this house, in the first place I do not think that the mere appointment of 10 or 12 persons to hold office for six or seven years would afford a means of corruption that this house could not withstand. Then we are told that the appointments to all positions in the army and civil service would be in the hands of the Minister, and that that would exercise a. corrupt influ ence over this house, for that we could not resist the blandishments of a Minister armed with such a power. Now, if there is the least honest sincerity in this objec tion, th e h ouse w i ll see at once how eas ily it is got rid of by the mode which I should suggest. I would sugg e st that all fir s t appo i n t ments i n India should be bestowed upon the principle of fair and open competition. ' (wilouealdr, havehear.) a cDieeav,nootpleent, honest compe tition. Say me be misunderstood. I i i there are 20 places to be given awa y. Well,- I would all ow ever y man capable of making an ap plication in writi n g t o undergo the trial and be exa mined. Let th e r e b e no pretence, as there is now, of compelling persons to beg to be placed on the list for examination, bat let it be competent for every man who is willing to do so to put his name down and be exa mined, even if there should be 1,000 competitors for the 2 m O od y e ac o a f n o t a o la ffic h ;s i . og T th ha e t, to my mind, is the only fair r of corruption out of t t h h e at h w an o d n s id o , f I th t e hi ls n i k i , ni t s a t k er e p s. a ri l n l tion of the time f w hich the Council is to be appointed. Icpiopnwle of competition, and no coma to the ques- Some say that tile appointment should be fer life, others for tin years, and (deers for six years. Now, the fact of electing members cf the Council for six years would deprive them of all responsibility, while at the sometime the Minister for India would be an irresponsible Minis, ter. - Depend upon it that if you adopt that principle you will abolish all responsibility in the government of India; if you give the Minister of the Crown the aid and assistance of a Council you will take responsibility from biro and destroy his power of governing India. I have os now to per• n be elected, and I come now to th e q uesti on as regards e the powers which it is intended t o g ive t o the Council. s be p elected, and o ver and t h the quest i ons persons by as whom r r egards r t d h s ey the to are It is said by some that the connection between the Minister and Oa Council ought to be something like the connection bet ween the Governor-General and his Coun cil, that he should take the advice of the Council, and act upon it. Now, that would be to deprive the Minis ter of all responsibility, and I don't think that a majority of this house would wish to see the establiAmeet of a Council to control the Minister. The effect of such a Council would be to shroud the Minister when in the wrong, and to hamper him when in the right—(hear)— for if wrong his responsibility would be taken away, and when right he would bo afraid to act in cases where it alight be said that he was acting contrary to the opinions of 10 or 12 persons associated with him. I know that such would be the case from what has occurred since I have been a member of this house. We have been told that the President of the Board of Con trol is really the Governor of India, and that is the fact, and that he may do as he pleases. Now, I upon one occasion moved a vote of censure upon the President of the Board of Control, and what course was adopted by the East India Directors who were members of this house ? Time out of mind I had beard them say that they had nothing whatever to do with the war in Aff ghanistan, and yet wbenl moved a vote of censure upon the President of the Board of Control in connection with that war, all the directors who were members of this house voted against me. Now, that is a very striking fact, and I may say that they have upon all occasions shielded themselves under the system of non-responsibi lity. I remember an attack which I made upon Sir J. Hobhouse and the noble lord the member for Tiverton, and upoii that occasion two or three of the members of the Court of Directors spoke and voted against me. Still, then I ask, what could be the responsibility felt or acted upon by the Council? To connect the Minister to whom the government of India may be intrusted with such a Council would be like putting wine into water, an operation by which both the wine and the water are spoilt. (Hear, and a laugh.) Having stated ray objec tions, and the ground fur them, I do not wish to detain the house, but there is one point to which I wish to re fer. I know that I shall have very high authorities against me, and, among others, that of the noble lord near me (Lord J. Russell) ; but the noble lord, like the right hon: gentleman the member for the University of Oxford, is no great authority, to my niind, in matters of legislation. (Hear.) From the very outset of my po litical life I have found the noble lord in opposition. He always puts me in mind of what we lawyers term "a case lawyer." He knows very well what has been ddne, but he never knows what ought to be done. (A. laugh.) He is a capital pilot in the shoals and cross-currents of party We i but put him out into the open sea and he has neither compass nor chart. (Renewed laughter.)—There fore, air, having found the noble lord so often in opposi tion, it is with some satisfaction that on this occasion I see him in opposition to myself. In fact, if upon the first blush of this proposal he had thought I was right, I should have been disposed to think I was wrong. This is a frank avowal. (Laughter and cheers.) I hope the noble lord will not take it amiss that I have make this statement, lam quite sure that his good nature and good feeling will go with me. (A. laugh.) I move, that the word " Council" be omitted. Lord STANLEY'.—Although the question of Coun cil or no Council is one of the most important which can be raised in the course of these discussions, it is one with regard to which the argument liesin a very narrow com pass. (Hear, hear.) There are only two grounds upon which objections can be taken to the appointment of a Council. One of them was not noticed by the hon. and learned member, and I think the committee will not attach much importance to it, I mean that of expense. I do not apprehend that where the question of the efficiency of the home government of India is concerned the committee will be inclined to attach much import. ante to the Expenditure of 10,0001. or 15,0001. more or less. The whole question, therefore, turns upon the point—whether toe appointment of a Council will, as tee hon, and learned member contends, diminish the re sponsibility of the Minister. (Hear, hear.) Is the re sponsibility of the Minister necessarily incomplete if there is a Council to assist him ? That, I apprehend, depend upon the relations to be established between the Minister and the Council. In the main those relations are very simple. The Council is bound to give advice, and the Minister is bound to hear, but he is not bound to take it. It is for hire to decide whether he will take or rek_mt it, and whether he takes it or rejects it he will equally act upon his own responsibility. But then it is said that if this Council is composed of persons eminent for their knowledge, of Indian affairs he will shelter him , sel under the authority of their opinions. My answer to that is, that the Minister will net have it in his power to shelter himself more under the opinions advanced by eminent persons being members of his Council than he would if they did not stand in that relation to him. (Hear, hear.) No doubt any Minister whose measures were attacked would be very glad to bring f irwsird in his defence the opinions and authority of men eminent as Indian statesmen. That is a desree of shelter which he would obtain from the autho rity of such persons, whether they era his colleagues in administration or not, but any other protection it is ex pressly provided that he shall not receive. What then is this council intended to do ? To supply that special departmental knowledge which it is utterly impossible that any public man trained in the ordinary school of English administration CV .1 possess upon purely Indian questione. (Hear) And now let me ask the committee what will be the result of negativing the appointment of the Coo ell? Does any member of this house really imagine that, upon any one of tho-se mnl farious ques tions which come before the D rectors of the East India Company and the Board of Coal.rol, the Minister will depend upon his own exclusive and unassisted judgment formed simply upon tea ling the papers, and a knowledge of the facts ? Why, everyone knows that be can't. He must rely to corns extent—that, I admit, is inevitehle— , upon the advice which he recrives from his Council. If he does not, ha will have to depend upon that of other persons who will be ceencillors in fact, though not in name—upon the advice of the perinaneet officiele of his department. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member says that the members of this Council will, in reality, be irre sponsible Ministers for India. I answer, that their position in that respect will be in no respect different from that of those other irresponsible advisers whom every head of a department habitually and necessarily consults upon matters of departmental knowledge of which he has no previous official experience. The only difference is that by placing these gentlemen in a more eminent position, by bringing them more before the public, you will obtain for that branch of the service men of high reputation, who have filled offices of greater distinction than you could place in a position of direct subordination to the Minister. I have not heard it from the hon. and learned genteeman, but elsewhere I have frequently heard _a parallel drawn bet ;wee the India's administration and that of the Colonial department; and I will for one moment ask the house to inquire how far these two administrations resemble each other. Under- the Colonial depart neat there are altogether about 7,000,000 of persons, of whom you may say that, speekieg roughly, 3,500,000, the popula tion of British North America and Australia, manage their own affiairs with very little reference to the depart 'rm. • int at home. Under the Indian department you have, I will not venture to say what number of persona, be cause I never heard two statements on the suhject, either in this house or out of it, which agreed, but putting it ate very moderato estimate, if I were to say 140,000,000 that would be 20 times the number who are under the CelonialDepartmentmeni that under a Government which 13 of a very absolute kind. ([[ear.) Then the hon. and learned gentleman raises agreat objection to those whom ho calls -‘ 01J Wiens," and assumes that they must ex clusively compose this Council. He said that there might be eminent men_among their number, but that the mass of the :e knew very little more of Indian affairs than if they had never been in the country. I will not stop to inquire how much of that proposition is true and how much - it is ex sgs,rereted, a,ndfor this reason, that those whom we hops to inclide in the proposed Council wid be not the mass of those who have served in India, but those whom the hon. and learned gentleman himself admits constitute the eminent exceptions. We have heard the worst and the blackest side of the Anglo-Indian character stated to-night, and I dare say there may be, as applied to a small fraction of those who set ve in India, some truth in the description ; but we must not forget that the ser vice which he has so criticised has in former times pro- duced men like Malcolm, Munroe, and Elphinstone. It can hardly be said tbat men like Sir John Lawrence, Sir H. Lawrence, if he had lived, and Sir James Outrarn, whose names are at this moment before the poeple of England, are incapable of offering advice to an Indian Administration. (Hear.) The special gain of surround ing the Minister for Indian affairs with men of this class will be that you will obtain, what you can cot in uo other way, that kind of knowledge which comes from personal contact with the natives of India, and personal experience of what are their habits and feelings. There is, I hope, no fear that any one undertaking the business of this de partment will come to it with any other than good in tentions, or any than a sincere desire to promote the welfare of the natives of India ; but, unluckily, when you are dealing with ali en races, differing very much among themselves, more mischief may be done with the most sincerely benevolent intentions, and by carrying out plans which are abstractedly good, than perhaps in any other way, or by any other error into which an Indian statesman is likely to fall. (Hear, hear.) Again, the hon. and learned member said that each member of the Council will only represent some one particular part of India, and therefore his special knowledge will be quite useless eel applied to questions affecting any other part of the country. This is to some extent true, and it is a very fine, and to my mind a conclusive argument against unduly limiting the Lumber of the proposed Council. (Hear, hear.) You do regains to have, if possible, each Presidency and each department of the pudic ssrvice in India represented in any Council which you are to constitute; but on that point I would jest observe that it may very often Irippen that some persons will be competent as regards more than one part of India, and in more than one department; be cause if you look into tee career of most of this eminent men who have served in Lithe, you will find tint they have not served ail the time in one branch of the ser vice, or in one part of the country, but have been transferred from one poet of difficulty to another, some times in one part of India and eoinetimes in auother, according as the pressure and emergency of the public service was greatest. Now, as to patronage, I shonid not.prop:ne to constitute a Council simply for the pur pose of absorbing a certain amount of patronage tveich could net be otherwise disposed of, but there being other reieesns for its creation, I think it is worth while to con sider how materially its existence will assist you l i k ri n t he settlement of that difficult part of reuestio . h. n of of only two mods of dealing with ten po in England, tent portion do the Lydian patronage which has to be exercised and which is inainlymilitary. Either yeumust vest 'tall in the Minister—a cours e which on his account is very m uch to be deprecated, and to which this house would het readily assent—or you must open it altogether to inn In tellectual and literary co mposesion,—a mode of pro cedure excellent, I t!jril:, as regaris the civil service, and one which I cordially sup!erred when its introduc lien was proposed . by the riglit her. gentleman oppo s it e in 1853, and when on many sides it yeas etrenueuely op posece—a mode of preceedure applicable also, I doubt • not, to the scientific branches of any service, whether civil or military, but one upon which, I think, you cannot so implicitly and universally rely when it is a question of giving away those simple military appoint. meats for which really one must acknowledge that high intellectual qualifications are not those particularly re quired. I am Mr from saying that open competition should not be introduced in the Indian service. I only request the committee to consider how little experience we have of that principle, how much it is atilt an ex periment—that it is an experiment of which in a few years more we shall be able to see the results as exhi bited in the working of our civil setvioe ; and then I ask them whether it is not premature, whether it would not be trusting too mach to theory, to say at once and in one sweeping measure, that the sole mode of entering upon the non-scientific branches in India should be after undergoing an i n t e ll ec t ua l an d scientific examination. I believe it to be a good and sound principle, but, like all good and sound principles, it may be pushed too far. (Hear.) I think, then, if there are objections to at once throwing open the whole patronage, if not the only mode, still the most convenient way to deal with the difficulty is to increase the responsibility of those who administer it. They will be men—if the Council be con stituted as we hope it will be—who will he perfectly in dependent of the Minister of the day or of any Minister, —men with no desire for jebbery—men whose habits and inclinations will lead them to consider alone the public advantage. Ido not see any more satisfactory mode of disposing of the patronage. These are the grounds upon which I oppose the hon. and learned gentleman's proposition. Whether you style them councillors or clerks, there will always be persons permanently employed in that department, whose advice every Minister will at least feel bound se riously to consider. In that way we got .rid of the patronage difficulty; and I feel that if you constitute a council, as you may, with a due admixture, tempering the Indian with the neutral element, you will accomplish the end we all have in view, (Cheers.) Mr. C. BRUCE wished to make ono remark with re gard to an observation of the hon. and learned ;',ember for Sheffield. The hon. member referred to Pe e Affghan war in support of his views, but the facts W'ere a complete refutation of his argument. Just before 'the Affghan war broke out Lord Heytesbury was aleneeinted to the govern ment of India by the late Sir R. ?eel. The Government which succeeded Sir R. Peel h'ecught fit to cancel that ap pointment and to appoiuf an estimable and well-inten tioned noblemad in hie P • lace That appointment was made solely on party grrthings, and from the want of administra tive abilitys o i the part of the well-intentioned nobleman so appoiw"tu sprung the Affghan war. The, amendment was put and negatived without a THE COURT OF DIRECTORS AS THE COUNCIL. Mr. LINDSAY then moved to leave out the words after " appointment," and to insert " and that the Court of Directors be the first council for India." He was of opi nion that the executive of India should be in the hands of the Secretary of State; but the East India Company hal proved such able administrators, and their land and sea transport service was so well managed, that he thought they should remain the first council for India. If his pro position wore adopted it would get rid of clause 6,7, and 8. Lord STANLEY said he did not dissent from the com pliment which the hon, gentleman paid to the present Court of Directors, for whatever faults might be found with the system on which the Indian Government had been carried on, he never said a word which was not friendly to those who administered that system. (Hoar, hear.) But ho thought the motion of the hon. member was prema ture, for the committee had not yet settled for how long a period the office was to be held. Some were to be held for life and others of a longer or shorter period, and it would not bo right for the Government or for the house to say, we offer you these offices, but we cannot tell you whether or not you are to hold them for life, or for a term of years. In 1833 the vested right of the Court of Direc tors would cease altogether, and though he would not bind himself by any pledge, if the nomination was left in the hands of the Crown the Government would not be pre cluded from accepting the very valuable assist Ince of some of those who now carried on the government of the East India Company. (Hear.) "Lord J. RUSSELL said he wished to say a few words on the general course of proceeding rather than the motion be fore the house. He should suggest that at this period of the year, it would be advisable, after agreeing to the prin cipal resolutions, to proceed to a bill. (Hear, hear.) With that view he wished to state that he should propose not only the statnlment ofhvidon.he hal gi you notice, that the council should not consist of more than twelve, but he would also propose that the whole be appointed by tho Crown. The resolutions of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer did not fix the time for which the members of the council should bo appointed ; but if the noble lord wished he could raise that question on hie motion. Then there was the question of patronage, which was an important one. If they had these few points settled, ho thought it would be.desirable to proceed by bill, without waiting to go through the whole of the resolutions. He agreed . with the noble lord that the Crown should be at lt'oerty to avail itself of the ability of any members of she present Court of Directors. He should state wha's ho thought ought to be the whole constitution of the, council. (Hear.) Lord DUNKELLIN bore tostimmeg from personal ex perience, to the efficiency of the land transport service i n India. (H ear .) Sir H. WILLOUGFIBy said the real question was, what power the council was to have ? Lord STANLEY snit the proposition for shortening the resolutions was one which it was the intention of his right hon. friend ',A l e Chancellor of the Exchequer to have pro poseth 1 . - ierhaps it would be convenient if he were to state that the government were agreed that the council should Consist of not less than 12, but that did not include the Secretary of State. (Cries of "Not more than 12.") Mr. C. BRUCE said he ha I a proposition that the coun cil should not consist of less than 24. The motion of Kr. Lindsay was then negatived without a division. Lord STANLEY said he was willing it should stand that the council rheeld ronsitt of 12. Mr. ROEBUCK sate that " not less than 12" might an that the council was to consist of 100. Col. SYKES moved that the chairman report progress. (Hear, hear, and oh.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that as the committee seemed disposed to adopt the resolution, he hoped the hon. gentleman would not press his motion. THE NUMBER OF COUNCIL. Lord PALMERSTON said that many hon. members might think that 12 was too large a number. e — Lord STANLEY, in reply, said that many also thought that 12 was too small a number. Col. SYKES said he should divide the committee if he had not an opportunity of proposing that the number should be 13. The motion for reporting progress was then put and ne i gatiVed. Mr. T. BARING said the change which the government seemed disposed to adopt was a most serious one. The re solution proposed that the council should consist of not more than 13 nor less than 12 members, the number to be decided according to the duties of the council, but no inti mation had been given what those duties were to be—whe ther the members were to be clerks or advisers. The go vthere9irffioepon aint wit hout any noti ce or i n ti mat i on of a change in wished t o carry i nto effect a complete change in the system. That the government should, after having deliberately made a p ropos i t i oo, make so sudden a change, was an inconsistency for which he could not account. (Cheers,) It would be better to defer the limitation until tht duties of the council were defined. The CFIANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER thought his hon, friend had misunderstood the character of the resolu tion. The object of the resolution was not to obtain a de finite decision but to elicit, the opinion of the house upon the point. The government thought there ought to be a council and not an inconsiderable council, and asked the house to say whether it should not be less than 12 nor more than 18. It was necessary to arrive at some result in order to place a bill on the table which wool) contain a definite conclusion. It appeared to bs the opinion of the committee that it would be desirable to fix the number of the council at 12. (" Hear, hear," and " No, no,") It would a lvance the progress of the measure to come to a decided resolution on the subject, Mr. V. SMITH was of opinion that the number ought to be defined in the tell, and that the committee ought to confine itself to saying that the number should not be more than 12. (Laughter.) Mr. C. BRUCE could not agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the opinion of the committee was in favour of fixing the number at 12. He thought 13 was the least number that ought to be adopted. If the proposition before the committee should be adopted it would preclude him from proposing that the number be 18. Lord PALM ERSTON said the question before the com mittee involved a most important principle. It was neither more nor less thee this--whether, when the change took place, the government of India should take place in London or in India. If the details of the government of India were to be transacted in London, the council ought to be a largo one ; but if the interference of the govern ment in London was to be restricted to narrow limits, a much smaller number would be more convenient. It was natural that a trading company should exercise a close supervision ovtr all its transactions in India. But. that was not the manner in which parliament considered the dependencies of the crown ought to be governed, and if parliament thought the duties of the council should be cenfined to general matters and not to Istalls, a large council would be troublesome, and a small one numbermuchm o h r e e con v enient. thought it Instead uld b e betterof to lattemptingeave tto t he fix number the to le e boon fixed fully the cn sdbiil red. after (Hear.) of r u p ctions of the coun c il hail RUSSELLolnoble friend n a d g agreed d in E t a h l m e g e r e s n t e o r n a ) l . hisdo L tv o n rd by j. great quantity of details had been gone through in this country. The change now proposed could not take effect for some time to come, and if there should be a small council at first, there might be such a mass of paper that it would be almost impossible to deal with them. Ho thought the proposal of the noble lord (Stanley), that the council should consist of 12, a very good one, and that the crown ought to have the power of diminishing the number to ten or eight. (Hear.) Mr. C. BRUCE said the council would be a kind of court of appeal in Indian affairs, and that the business could not be carried on with a less number than 18. Mr. T. BARING appealed to the justice of the Govern ment to consider this question, which was a most serious one. They had agreed to reduce the number of the council to 12 without any notice or explanation whatever. On the decision of the committee on this point depended the ques tion whether the power of the government in India should bo increased and the directin and supervision of the Go vernineut at home should be diminished. There had boon no discussion as to the exact number ; it was to have been supposed that the Government, having matured the reso lution, were prepared to abide by it, and if they wore weir) , to reduce the slumber, he trusted they would allow time for discussion. (idetr.) Mr. P. O'BRIEN considered the Governmoat were in an nub ;ppy position between the hen, member for Hunting don, an old member of their party, on one side—(question) —and the nobly l ord the member for the city of London, wh,) had got them out of the scrape before, on the other. (Load cries (.f " Q:te2tien ") lie was spcalcin,g as to the constitution of the council, a most important subject, and hon, gentlemen had no right to call "Question." "Cries of " Q uesti " and "Divide.") Sir G. GREY thought the committee ought not to lee called on to fix the nernishr until they knew the duties of the council, and' heir it was to be composed. He would suggest to the night hon. gentleman to omit all reference ' to the number, and leave it to be decided in committee on the bill. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no doubt he would facilitate the passing of the resolution by adopting the suggestion of the right hon. blronet ; and if he were to treat ail the other resolutions the same way he might pais theta that; vening ; but the result would be, they would have to renew all the discussion during the progress of the bill. The resolution had been prepared with a view to a scertain the feeling of the house. He be lieved that was clearly expressed in favour of 12; and h e was bound to say that after full investigation the govern ment were clearly of opinion that that number would be sufficient, He would ask the committee what chance there was of carrying out their views unless they endeavoured on every occasion to come to some definite conclusion After the appeal of the hon. member for Huntingdon, be would not press the committee to decide at once as to the number, but he trusted hon. gentlemen would not force them to report progress unless they bona fide intended to raise the question on themext night. He trusted that the next evening the committee would settle the question se to election or nomination, in which case they would soon be able to introduce the bill. Sir C. WOOD could not understand how the right hen gentleman had arrived at the conclusion that the o pinion of the house was in favour of the number l 2; he had been in the house since half-past four, and had not heard any thing to justify such conclusion. The house was not in a position to fix any precise number ; they ought to leave it out altogether, or leave it between certain limits. Colonel SYKES and Lord J. RUSSELL rose together. There were loud cries for the latter, but Colonel MSS persisted, amidst cries of "divide," and " question." Be protested against th e con d uc t o f the government in at ' tempting to fix the number after many members interested in the subject had left the house : from eighteen yearn' experience he could say 15 was few enough. Lord J. RUSSELL said that if the discussion was to be renewed he should certainly persist in his amendment. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, as th e ' hour was so far advanced he would move to report pro' gross. (Hear, hear.) [The moment the right hon. gentleman made this state ment there was a general rush of members from the house.] The CHAIRMAN, however, put the question, th a t the word " more " he inserted in the resol u ti on i n place of the word " less," an d d ec id e d t h at the " noes" had it. The CH te:NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved theb the chairman report progress. Le'rd A. V. TEMPEST asked what the amendment iven t 1 at had been put, which few hon. members understood. Lord PALMERSTON suggested that if the Governmen t . intended to make any changes in the resolutions they I should state them beforehand. The CFANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that , , any chang3 in the resoluti ons p ropose d b y t h e G overnm ent would be stated beforehand. As to the doctrine of the noble lord, that no changes were to be made in resolution s without notice, he would find it very difficult to caul that out. Lord PALMERSTON only wished to consult the conve nience of the house, and had hid down no such doctrine. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the hoot resumed. The house will again go into committee on Friday night; • The Hainault Forest Bill was read a third time and passed. FRIENDLY _SOCIETIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. On the motion of Mr. S. ESTCOURT, this bill, which NO! intended to remedy a defect in the working of the present act, was read a second time. The Titles of Lamd (Scotland) Bill was read a second time. The order of the day for the Clerks of Petty Sessions (Ireland) Bill was discharged. The Markets and Fairs (Ireland) Bill passed throug h committee pro jorma. NISI PRIUS COURT (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion for the second reading of this bill, Mr. CRAUFURD made some objections to its details , and urged it should not be proceeded with at that hour. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said tis!','; no Government wou ld press the second reading o f a bi at one o'clock in the morning, if it was objected to, ant% the hon. gentl eman h ad stated his objection to going 01 it would have been postponed at once, and he might 1 10 been spared his ob , ervationp. The bill was then postponed till Monday. THE VACCINATION (IRELAND) BILL. This bill was read a second time. MARIII t.GE LAW AMENDMENT BILL. The second reading of this bill was postponed nil"^" Monday next. COPYHOLDS. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL laid on the table a for amending the law as to copyholds. The bill was read a first time. via JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES ACTS AMENDNJA- - BILL. Mr. HENLEY br oug ht i n a bill t o amen d th e j o int . stock Companies Acts 1850 and 1857, and the Joint-stog Companies Act 1857. The bill was read a first time. The other orders o f th e d ay were di spose d o f , an d to houso adjourned at a quarter past one. Uou.ntry Markets, CHELMSFORD—Juin 4. The weather being so extremely favourable to the neW crop, the better samples of wheat to-day met a reducto.. of is per qr., whilst second rate qualities, where sale° ' v ia pressed, suffered an abatement of fully s per qr. SP,. r i o r corn dull, at last wee k' s rates. Trade extremely ft" all descriptions of grain. Wheat, white old,per s. qr.4o new.... 40 rad, old 37 new.... 36 Barley 34 Chevalier 38 Grinding . 23 Malt 70 Chevalier 72 s. 8 . s. '4 34 48 Oats, per qr ••` 41 48 Peas, Partridge ::.:..43 4 44 4 .... ...40 I 4 t Dun . .... .. 40 32 Harrow ticks 37 73 I M a zagan ....... 34 73 Ditto, new... 34 Beans l3 , T o k n g . ..... .... NORWICH—JUNE 5. The corn trade of this district has been quiet during tha past week. There was more firmness apparent to-day, "' a sales made being effected on rather easier terms than this day se'enight. Little doing in barley, oats, be, 5 , 11 ; and peas. Flour, 28s to 28 s 6d p er sac k f rom th e White wheat, 4Gs to 48s ; red, It/s to 455.; barley. 325 The attendance was thin. • COLCHESTER—JUNE 5. mut A fair supply of wheat, but the trade was dull, at 1 - 02 is under last Saturday's rates. Very little spring c c ' on offer, and no material alteration in value. • to y ' red, 42s Prices to 465; barley, to-daywere as fo—a llowto s ; oats, 2 :—Whea, w 6 a hi to 3te, 0i 463 ; b eo, . Hazagan, .',Ss to 40s ; middle and sma ll, 42 s to 443; P white, 42s to 44s ; grey, 44s to 465. Official Statement of the Quantities of Corn, &c in the port of London, from the following p May 31 to June 5, both inclusive. , reco il ed ' )r te, fro- .......,,,, ul uu u um, u, uuwt inclusive. , ---;- - ri .4 0 ri Cl ' A • • Colchester 1 8 200' ' ' - ' 4 68 S llarwich 4 185 4 220 ....,,, Leigh , 495 6 —4 18V.! Slahlon :1226, -- 108. KIRKCALDY—JUNE 5. 1 0 , Wheat. Barley. j Oats. J It s 0 4 First 4Bs Oct 393 01 ( 28s Oct6d I Ol Second 44s Od I —s Oct 1 26s 01 f v' Q 4 Third 3ss Oct 1 —s 01 j 233 04.1 011 COAL MARK Prices of Coals per ton a 17. - JUNE 7. the close of the market s. d.' Bell's Primrose l2 0 Howard's West Hartley Netherton 15 0 Hastings Hartley. l5 0 Morpoth West Hartley 14 9 Tandeld Moor l2 3' Lougridge's Wst Hartley 15 0 Wylain Wallsend, &O. , L e 0 Acorn Close ............... 90 Benson.... .................. 1.6 Eden . 1 5 Braddyll Brown's Moor .14 6 Main .................... A a Hunwick • ..... Powell's Duffryn Steal" 4 ! Whitworth ................ . 4 9 , Hough Hail ............... 17 ! Flotton ...................... . Eden Main ... . 17 ,? fiambton ..................... Hartlepool Hetton ....... 1 6 a ' ,South Kelloe .............. Harton 67 ; sold, 58 . Wallaend, &o. Framwellgate l4 9 Cassop 15 9 Kelloo. l6 3' Seacroft; 14 3 1 Russell's fletton 15 6! Haswell 17 9 Cowpou Hartley . l5 6, Ships at market, of Letters from Hamburg mention that the 13 °, t16 ,40 1 Mr. Tc.eodor Schmidt, which was one of the PL ai ; - "cr among those that suspended during the crisis in N°. de/ bar la,t, ban resumed business, haying paid all deln ii " with interest and charges. [A.DVERTISEMENTd—EIoIIovvay 's Pills a mos t 'ick' lent Retnecly for Indigestion.—Charles Strong, hroat layer, of Burghfieid, near Reading, Berkshire, With g lo ve gratitude informs Professor Holloway that his cured him of indigestion, accompanied With t l p d is horrors, after several physicians had been consg - ter vain. For three years he was troubled with thelyelti tibia symptoms, frequent vomitings, and wan t ' et . until he accidentlly heard of Holloway's Pills, aucb -P OO severing steadily with the same, in a few weeks hces' restored to perfect health.—Sold by all medicine durs throughout the world ; at Professor 33 011°w n - p". Establishment, 244, Strand, London ; by A. St,,k - ; esnstantinople ; A. Guidic d E' "" I'L y, Smyrna ; an Malta. pillst ito B I R T II S. iq z 0 '6 ' BIDDULPH —On the 4th inst , at Fitzroy terrace, A -4-e of ° park, the wife of Colonel Elward. Biadulph, daughter. b idg: BIRD-011 the 3d inst., at Calverley park, Tu n , - ,i r - wells, the wife of Maor Robert Wilberforce Mr"' son. f „ . o 0, DRUMMOND —On the 6th inst., at Edwinsford, Oa s r u t , of her father, the wife of Si r J ames Drummond, 1315 Hawthornden, of a son. MARRIAGES. s. 3 11 f i r, t JONES—SPRATLEY—On the 3d inst., at - t* de.e -s o e l Church, Mr. Robert Jones, of the Place Af :tlef' - Paris, to Emma, daughter of Mr. James SPr- Fiuch-harupstead, Berks. I ff• C ;:! SATow— KENT —On the 3d inst., at Flackne7 , ,. -J . of Satow, eldest son of Mr. Andrew Satow, 0 ' g e nt, Mary Darvall, fourth daughter of Mr. Wril• °.' 21, Ulaptun-square. , flof ig THOMSON —DE BEAUMONT —Oa the 3 d inst., o a l ' l 'd 005 p.tii6ii church, Brighton, Henry ByerleYi ° e o n, 01 $ viving son of the late Dr. Anthony Todd Thom_ o plei her Majesty's Advocate for Ceylon, to Sarita, tw, daughter cf the Count do Beaumont. DEATHS, BARTON—On the 4th inst., the Rev. R. S. Barton, re3t4r, of Heysham, Lancashire, aged 72. , fort ° d BRAMLY—On the 15th April, killed before We n ingi Buoheea, near Roodemao, in Oude, Alfre.l Je ll , r , ex Bratcly, Lieut. 42d Royal Highlanders, fourth son, the Rev. Thomas Jennings Brainly, of Tunbridge' Kent, aged 22. the C AVSNDISH —On the 4th inst., at 36, Cheshani-Pli`ca' Hon. Mrs. Richard Cavendish. Aftl os"f J O NES—On the 4th inst., at Chs.thon, Carolie • --- A reli 4V Lady Harding., wife of Henry T. Jones, EA n . , ilia — of the late Sir Richard Hardinge, Bart. ____ -------- ,„,, 1 110 I LONDON : Printed and Published by MITEDO Y u ' .fo. of Nc. 112, Strand, Printer, at 270 Stin osl U 2, Strand, in the Precinct of the Svioy, in the c o of etticidleaex, Tucs lay, June 8, 180. AP NI Gi4eious Maj le/ sb ill take l ia, line 21 $m o Tickets a n Iq4itre, aucis btt,. )._ 3, TICE RES d ' m ate!' past Open] Tls. )LtIIN•3 MA DEL) ri l l. : Straw d' d fbrinarl uete v ia by th e eidbao at I Utteat artist 1 344 . 8 Rat 44Jiata'n "I to be an 34 1 4: ° p i g( gOl/,( lkstltof as t iro, • sabral Witel and va 1•00ttom3 ._,' To TILE rim I ki t n • Ze ° o 7 l 5,t GENT' 22 orahlll, I r abries fc cfor trous tj it ratterres. re; So, Z i res. ?p .m e Est key . LEGA' J'etice is I he closed z:Ai:five), pri t_ Thursday, Mau the ho E T bi ke'• Lo ASS lcr.g . A maral ci be ing iled w : ACCID A 14 0 — Trop; u i t eident a l t ,ILk V E L ue Polio] Orebase are iqaTine Insm] tqlclitlons un Total I Claim! 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