The Sun. — London, England, 1858-05-19 00:00:00

--- IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS. -(YESTERDA.Y. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at tive o'clock. Lord LYNDHURST presented a petition from the Jewish inhabitants of the metropolis, signed by 1,400 persons, including the Chief Rabbi, two aldermen of the city, nine graduates of the universities, and a large body of barristers, solicitors, merchants, Ste., i❑ favour of the removal of Jewish disabilities. The Earl of ALBENIA.RLE presented a petition signed by 1,300 of the inhabitants of Keigbley, in the West Riding of Yorkshire, praying for the restora tion of the royal family of Oude to their rightful inheritance. The noble earl said that after the course which the Government had pursued towards Lord Canning, he thought such petitions should be entrusted not to private members of the house, but to the First Lord of the Treasury, or some other noble lord on the Ministerial bench. ELECTION OF A SCOTCH PEER. _ . The Duke of BI:7C6LEUCEIfnq;iTed of the noble Marquis the President of the Council, what time had been fixed for the election of a new pccr to the place now vacant in the Scottish Representative Peerage The Marquis of SALISBURY said that unfortu nately a mistake had occurred in regard to the day filed for the election. The law required that it should take place twenty-five days a fter the procla mation had been issued, but by me mistake twenty-eight days had been fixed, the consequence of which would be that the election would be void. The mistake would be rectified as soon as possi , ble by the issue of another proclamation. %) PRIVATE BUSINESS. On the motion of Lord REDESDALB, the Bir mingham Canal Navigation, Sir Benjamin Hall's Es tate B ra ntford Gas, Buryhe ad Harbour, and Garn g ad Road ' Bills were read a secand time ; and Malvern Improvement Bill was read a third time and passed. THE OATHS BILL. Lord LYNDHURST gave notice that he might find it necessary to take into consideration the Lords' amend meats to the Commons' amendments on the Oaths bill. He meant in that case to proceed with the ques tion on Monday week. ADJOURNMENT FOR THE WHITSUNTIDE RECESS. The Earl of DERBY said that on Friday next he should propose that the house should adjourn till the Monday week following, when his noble and learned friend could bring forward the subject of which he had given notice. He understood that the Commons proposed to adjour❑ from Friday next to the Friday following. On the motion of the Earl of DONOUGHILORE, the Portumna Bridge (Ireland) Bill was read a second time. The Consolidated Funds (11,000,0001.) bill and the Stamp Duty on Drafts Bill were also read a second time. The house aljourned at half-past five o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. —(YESTERDAY. ) The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The following bills were read a third time and passed —Edinburgh and Glasgow and Stirling and Dunfermline Railway ; Salisbury and Yeovil Railway ; Staines, We kingbam and Woking Railway. The following bills were considered and ordered to be read a third time—Caledonian Railway (Branch to Part Carlisle Railway) ; Horsham Turnpike Trust ; Lanca shire and Yorkshire and East Lancashire Railway Com pities ; Portsmouth Railway ; Wexford Harbour Em bankment ; Northampton Gas. Mr. J. B. SMITH presented a petition from Stock port deprecating the annexation of Oude, and praying that it might be restored to the native owners. PUBLIC INCOME. Mr. W. WILLIAMS moved for an account of the public income and expenditure of the United Kingdom, in the years ending the 31st of March, 1857-58. — Ordered. Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition from Birming ham in favour of the Property Qualificatio❑ Abolition Bill; also a petition from numerous freehold land societies in same place, praying that the 40e. county franchise might be extended to Scotland. THE OATHS BILL. At half•past four o'clock the SPEAKER announced that the hour appointed for the conference with the House of Peers had arrived. Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the members who drew up the reasons of the Commons for disagreeing with the amendments made in their lordships' house be appointed to manage the conference. Tne motion was agreed to, and the members heft the house. After an absence of 10 minutes the members returned, and Lord JOHN RUSSELL announced that they had been to the cooference, and had left the bill and the reasons with their lordships for their consideration. Lord NORREYS gave notice that on Thursday next he should ask a question of the Secretary of the Board of Control, with respect to his silence regarding the proclamation of the Governor-General of India. HARBOURS IN IRELAND. Mr. 11A.SSARD asked the Secretary of State for War, if any report had, within the last year, been re ceived at the War-office or Horse-Guards, relative to the great facilities afforded by the harbour of Waterford for landing and embarking troops to and from the south of Ireland ; and, if so, whether he had any objection to lay the same on the table of the house ! General PEEL said the most favourable reports had been received, and as those reports were asked for, there would be no objection to their production. THE GOVERNOR-GENERAL'S PROCLA- MA.TION. Sir D. NORREYS asked the Chancellor of the Ex• chequer whether the Governor-General of India bad seat home a copy of the proclamation addressed to the chiefs and inhabitants of Oude, which was actually issued after the taking of Lucknow, and whether it differed in any respect from the proposed proclama tion, a copy of which had been laid before the house ; And whether the Governor-General of India had given to the Government of England, or to the India Board, any other explanation of such proclamation, or the reasons which have led to or justify its issue than such as are contained in the letter addressed by Mr. Edrnonstone to the Secretary to the Chief Commissioner of Oude, dated 31 March, and which has been laid bef ,re the house. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—In answer to the first question of the hon. baronet, I beg to inform him that we have not received any " copy of the proclamation addressed to the chiefs and inhabitants of Oude, which was actually issued after the taking of Lucknow," and therefore I cannot say whether it differs in any respect from the proclamation which has been laid before the house. With respect to the second and more important question, whether the Governor-General of India has given to the Government " any other ex planation of such proclamation, or the reasons which have led to or justify its issue, than such as are contained in the letter of Mr. Edmonstorae," I beg to inform the hon. baronet that we received on Saturday three pri vate letters from Lord Canning, which have been al ready referred to in the debates. There are references in these letters to the proclamation, but previous letters, in which the Governor-General may have given the explanatioas which he had promised, and in which probably there were other statements that seem to be referred to in those letters, and which are conse quently involved in obscurity, have never reached us. l i (Ministerial cheers.) Sir D. NORREYS asked whether the Government had received positive information from the Governor- General that any such proclamation had been issued 2 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—We have not received from the Governor-General any posi tive information that such a proclamation had been issued ; but we have positive information that it has been issued. (Hear, hear.) Lord PALMERSTON—I wish to make an observe tion with reference to the cmcluding part of the right hon. gentleman's answer to the first question, which seems to contain an insinuation, which some mem bers of the house accepted in the sense it was pro bably intended to convey. The right honourable gen• tleman said that three letters hail been received from Lerd Canning on Saturday, containing references to previous letters that hal not reached the Board of Cm trol, but which he supposed contained Explanations of the proclamation. I have only to say that my right bon. friend who was lately President of the Board of Control hag received no xplanation from Lord Canning, in any private letter, with refeemence to the proclama tion in Oude. (hear, bear.) Consequently, if these letters have not reached the present Government, neither have they reached my right hon. friend, who was formerly at the head of the Indian Government. (Hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I beg to say that I did not intend, and that I did not make any insieuation of the kind to which the noble lord ha referred. (Cheers.) There Ere gentlemen who are ever ready t 0 b e li eve that insinuations are made w i th regard to Ito theirinaL nation. I repeat unequ i voca ll y t h at I ma d e ion. (Cheers.) If I had a charge to make, I should m w make it not in en e of inzinuation, butie language that c ou ld not be may mistaken. (Cheers.) The noble lord has enti re l y misunderstood what I said. I ssid there were expression s in the letters received frod' L )rd Canning which seemed to re f sr to what had ' stated in other letters ; that there were observations them which contained references to matter s o f which i n had no account ; that they were, therefore, neceasarili involved in obscurity; aad that under these cir cumatanc,e I was unable to give the explanation which the hon. taronet asked. (Hear, hear.) Sir J. SHELLEY asked whether the Governmen t had obtained information of any proclamation having been issued? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER —I I eeed before that we are in poesession of coulinunica tions which speak to the fact of the proclamation having been issued, but we have no official communication from Lord Canning to that effect. (Hear, hear.) Sir J. PALINGTON-1t is in my power to give an answer to the hon. baronet. I have within the last few hours seen a gallant officer who arrived from Luck now last night, and who before leaving Lucknow had a conversation with Sir Colin Campbell. In that conver sation Sir, Colin Campbell stated to him his opinion of the proclamation which had arrived. (Hear, hear.) Sir C. WOOD asked whether it was to be understood that the proclamation bad arrived, or had bean issued at Lucknow. Sir J. PAKINGTON was understood to say that the explanation he had received was that the proclama tion had been sent to Lucknow. (Hear, hear.) Lord A. V. TEMPEST asked the right hon. gentle man the late President of the Board of Control whether he bad any objection to produce those parts of the private letter he had received from Lord Canning which referred to the subject of the proclamation. Mr. V. SMITH—I have already stated the substance of the letter, and also that had I, to the best of my judg, went and discretion, considered it important enough to be communicated to the Government, I would have done so. I did not think any part of the letter important, and therefore did not send it. (Hear, and oh, oh.) Lord A. V. TEMPEST said the right hon. gentleman bad not answered his question. (Order, order.) The SPEAKER said the noble lord might put a ques tion, but was not at liberty to enter into any comments. Lord A. V. TEMPEST would repeat his question. Had the right hon. gentleman any objection to lay be fore the house those parts of the letter he had received from Lord Canning which related to the subject of the proclamation ? Mr. V. SMITH-I have already stated the substance of the letter, and that is the only answer I have to make. (Ironical cheers.) Sir J. ELPHINSTONE rose, amid loud cries of " order," to make a statement. In order to put himself in order he said he would move the adjournment of the house. He understood there was a gallant officer who had held a high command in Oude now in town, who had stated publicly on various occasions that he had had communications with officers high in command and with the Governor-General since the publication of the pro clamation. He had also stated what were the impres sions on Lord Canning's mind, and the mind of others, with regard to that subject, and he (Sir J. Elphinstone) thought it would be desirable to have, if possible, the substance of that officer's evidence given to the house. (Ohl and No, co.) Mr. V. SMITH thought this a most irregular pro ceeding. Why did the hon. gentleman, if he had the evidence of this gallant officer, not communicate it to the house himself The motion for the adjournment was then withdrawn Mr. DILLWYN asked whether, in the event of the amendment he had given notice of to the motion of the right hon. gentleman the member for Oxford being car ried, and in effect becoming a substantive motion, it would receive the support of her Majesty's Govern • ment. (Oh, oh.) The CLIA.NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said-- I wish to explain to the house the state of business. I understand we cannot hope to make any arrangement by which the debate on the Oude question can be re sumed to night at any reasonable hour. I do not,think it would be just to the Government that this disbussion should be recommenced atjthe fag end of a debate. (Hear.) I understand that the hon. and gallant admiral (Sir C. Napier) acting, no doubt, from a sense of duty, declines to give way, and one cannot expect those gentlemen who precede him on the paper to make a sacrifice of their position. I think, therefore, that there is no probability of the adjourned debate occurring to night at any reasonable hour, and I confess I am some- what reconciled to the delay, because there is no pos sibility of the house dividing to-night. But I must beg that, on every practice of courtesy and every principle of justice, bon. members who have motions on the paper for Thursday will consent to an arrangement by which the discussion on the resolutions of the right hon. gent le• man (Hr. Cardwell) will be resumed at the earliest pos• Bible moment on that day. Thursday is a day in the occupation of private members, and the hon. mem ber for Surrey has a motion of the greatest importance for that day. It is with the greatest reluctance that I make an appeal to that hon. gentleman to sacrifice the occasion of bringing forward a matter of so much in terest, but my appeal to that hon. member is not made, under light circumstances. (hear, hear.) I hope, therefore, that, the hon. member for Surrey, taking all the circumstances into his consideration —remembering that a bill of indictment, as it were, has been preferred against her Majesty's Government—that they are on their trial, and that we are, further, on the eve of a re- teas, will see the neces3ity that the decision of the liotie on this subject shall not be unnecessarily postponed. (hear.) I cannot but believe that the hon. gentleman, animated by the sentiments of a generous mind, will allow the adjourned debate to be resumed on Thursday. (hear.) if the hon. gentlema❑ gives his consent I shall feel it to be my duty to give him facilities for bringing on his measure on the earliest practicable occasion. (Cheers.) If the hon. gentleman consents that the ad journed debate shall be resumed on Thursday its termi nation must be near at hand, and cannot fail to take place either on that or the succeeding night. With regard to the question of the hon. member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn), if the motion of the right hon. gentleman the member for Oxford is negatived, as I hope it will be —(a laugh)—l see nothing in the amendment of the hon. gentleman to which I could not give a willing consent. Mr. L. KING, after the appeal made to him, would postpone his motion on Thursday. (Hear, hear.) ADJOURNMENT OVER THE DERBY DAY. Captain VIVIAN moved that the house at its rising adjourn to Touraday. He had no doubt that bon. members were anxious to have an opportunity of at- tending to-morrow those amusements which were o such importance that they were almost a part of our constitution. (A. laugh.) He trusted that the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who so often levelled the shafts of his eloquence in that house would offer no objection to the motion, and that he would find to-morrow another Toxopholite in another place. (A laugh.) The motion was then agreed to. On the motion of Mr. BOUVERIE it was ordered, amid a slight murmur from members of committee, that committees have leave to sit to-morrow, not withstand ing the adjournment of the house. LORD CANNING'S PROCLAMATION. Mr. CRAWFORD said it was generally understood that Colonel Franks, the officer alluded to as h av i ng just returned from Lucknow, bad stated that before Lis departure from Lucknow it was understood that the pro clamation which had been so much referred to, had been issued by Lord Canning in obedience to instructions sent out from this country. (Hear.) He begged to ask the late President of the Board of Control whether such was the case or not ? (Hear.) Mr. V. SMITH (after a brief consultation with Lord Palmerston) said the question was so obviously ridicu lous that it hardly required an answer. (Hear, and a laugh.) He had already said that the first instruction he had received respecting the proclamation he had given the substance of to the house. Sir J. PAKINGTON said that a feeling of justice to wards Colonel Franks compelled him to take some notice of the question. Colonel Franks felt considerable deli cacy with respect to the conversation which had taken place between himself and Lord Canning, and was most solicitous that he should not be supposed to have re flected in any manner upon that nobleman. The hoc. member for London was misinformed as to the facts. Colonel Franks had heard a rumour that the proclama tion of Lord Canning was the result of a communication with the late President of the Board of Control (Nlr. V. Smith), but Colonel Franks said that that impression was erroneous, and had arisen from the inference that from all that had taken place the proclamation must have issued from instruc iotal from home. Col. Pranks, however, did not it.teud to say that the proclamation had so issued. (Rear, hear.) The motion fur adjournment till Thursday was then agreed to. THE SUN, LONDON, had not been able in the course of the debate to turn to the recorded debates of the house, but trusting to memory, subject to correction, he could not speak in confirmation of the right hon. and learned gentleman's recollection. Mr. BRIGHT said the time would come when the house would have to enter on this question, and others in connection with it. In reference to legacy duty the honourable gentleman said he knew a gentleman who was left an estate in land of about 7001. a-year by a lady who was no relation to him. That estate at 30 years purchase Ras worth 21,0001., and there was about 11,0001. worth of timber on it, making together about 32,0001. Had such an amount of personal proporty been left to him he would have had to pay about 3,200/. legacy duty, and before the passing of the Succession Act he would have had nothing to pay on it. Under the Succession Duties Act, he consulted the officers of the Government, and ask.3d them weat ho bad to pay. He was asked his age, and on this the officers turned to a table of calculations ; his interest was considered to be worth 7,0001., and he had only to pay 7001. He (Mr. Bright) would not insult the house by remarking on the inequality of such taxation. He hoped if the Chancellor of the Exchequer filled that office next year, that instead of bringing in a nicely-balanced budget he would introduce one to the notice of the house that would deal with such questions. It would receive the support of the house, and also the support of a large amount of the people out of doors. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY drew attention to the pecu burdens borne by the land, such as poor's rates, county rates, dec., that did not affect personal property. After some remarks from Sir J. WALSH, Tile CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said be was not disposed then to enter into a full discussio❑ of the queztion, neither did he think the house expected him then to edter into the complicated question. (Hear.) The great difference that existed between landed and personal property rendered the application of the pro bate duty to land almost impossible. The probate was a stamp on a document which enabled executors to deal with personal property, but with regard to the different character of landed property no stamp was required for dealing with it, because an heir often succeeded without any deed, and what was easy with regard to personal pro perty was very difficult and almost impossible with regard to landed property. Personal property was easier af disposal for rising the probate duty than was laud, and to dik• pose of a portion of it under such circumstances would greatly detriorate it in value. Nothing was so difficult as to adjust taxation, and the only way in which he thought an equivalent could be obtained would be by the renewal of the probate duty altogether, and raising the legacy and succession duty, but then the practical effect of that would be to raise those two duties from 10 per cent, to 63 per cent.—a proposition that be thought would be received with opposition in that house. (Hear.) The only alternative, then, would be to abolish all gra dations of consauguinity and have one uniform rate of 4 or 5 per cent., which would be a proposition equally as unpopular as the other. It was impossible to deal with this qu‘eitiou without considering all the circumstances with which it was surrounded, such as local taxation, poor rate=, &c., and he thought the hon. member for Bir mingham would find his proposition not so simply de monstrable. With regard to applying the succession duty to corporations, he thought great difficulties existed in carrying it into effect. This calculation was that there were three successions in a century, and, as cor porations never died, the calculation was that they would pay 301. a century, or 6'. Bd. a year ; but the great question would arise as to the exemptions, and he feared if they attempted to put the law into execution with re gard to corporations, that the estimated 4,500/. revenue would be more than swallowed up in law expenses to enforce the payment. Sir G. C. LEWIS concurred in nearly all that bad fallen from the right_ hon. gentleman the Chancellor of ths Exchequer.- The fault, if any, in not enforcing the succeesion !duty of the ~ corporation rested with him rather than the present Chancellor.of the Exe,hequer l . an d 114 had abstained from enforcing it froM the earns concliiSiOn'S at which the right hon. gentleman, tha,Chancellor:o:f the' Exchequer had come to. The real difficulty idarPly ing the probate duty to land, was that in order to make the duty productive, they must first rh-model the law of wills as it affected real property. Mr. HENLEY said the real question involved in this sut , ject had not been touched on by previous speakers. In considering it it was necessary they should look to local taxation, the land tax, and also the subject of stamps o❑ deeds. If a person sold an estate of 30,0001., he had to pay a very handsome sum in the shape of a stamp on the conveyance transferring the land, whereas, if the sum was in the funds, the fortunate party would have nothing to pay. That was as clear an anomaly on the one side as the other, and he believed that when the subject was looked into that question must also be examined. He could not let stamps remain on real pro perty and not put them on personal property. He, however, was inclined to believe that the matter, as it at present stood, was pretty nicely balanced. Mr- LOCKE KING was glad to find the subject had been brought under the consideration of the house, and he should vote for the motion. There was a great amount of personal property, such as railway shares, that bad to pay the stamp duty. He should shortly bring the subject under the consideration of Parliament. Sir J. GRAHAM felt himself bound to oppose the motion. He disagreed with the first part, but agreed with the latter part, in reference to the succession duties being enforced against corporations. The estimate of Lord Aberdeen's Government was that it would produce 15,0001. and he thought there must be some error with respect to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's calculation of 4 5001. The house then divided : For the motion Against it 172 Majority against the motion --104 INSURANCE COMPANIES. Mr. SHERIDAN moved for have to introduce a bill to regulate insurance and assurance institutions, and to arrange for their iucorporatioo. The law with regard to these companies was in so uncertain a state that it had become positively necessary that some legiF lative enactments should be introduced to meet the evil. He there bad taken the question up, in the of being able to deal with it, but as an arrangement had been come to with a gentleman opposite, that the discus ion on the bill should be postponed until the second reading, he should not deem it ceceseary to enter into its provisions upon that eccasion• The motion having been seconded, leave was given to introduce the bill. CONSPIRACY TO MURDER IN IRELAND. Mr. BLAND moved to introduce a bill repealing so much of the 10th. of Geo. ?V., chap. 34, as related to , . conspiracies and solicitations to murder in Ireland. The hon. member proceeded to observe that in the di,cussion on the bill introduced by the noble lord the member for Tiverton, it bad been pointed out that the law with re gard to the crime of conspiracy to murder, was different in Ireland to what it was in England, and it was ad mitted that the law as it existed in Ireland required al teration. Accordingly, by a section of the bill of the noble lord, it was enacted that henceforward the law of the two countries should he assimilated, and that the crime of conspiracy to murder should be made a felony punishable with transportation in both. Well, the prin ciple was approved of, and all he now asked the house to do was to sanction its adoption in future. Mr. GREEN seconded the motion. Me. WHITESIDE promised that the Government would give their fullest consideration to the assimilation of the law of conspiracy to murder in both countries. At the same time it must be distinctly understood that he would give to any proposal for the repeal of the act of Geo. IV. his most decided opposition. That act was passed to meet cases where conspiracy to murder was followed by the perpetration of the deed, and had no re ference to cases of conspiracy where the intention was not executed. He was happy to be able to state that the crime of conspiracy to murder had become much rarer •l late in Ireland, and that unquestionably some ehoinge in the statute law was therefore necessary, an that in the character recommended by his hon. and learned friend Mr. Bland. Perhaps, therefore, his hon. friend would consent to leave the matter in the hands of the Government, and withdraw his motion. Lord J. RUSSELL said there was no doubt that the whole subject of the law upon the point of conspiracy to murder was in a most unsatisfactory state, so much so that the better opinion seemed to be that even if Dr. Bernard had been found guilty by the jury, he must have been finally discharged upon the decision of the judges, ae the crime with which he was cbarged was not reeJgnisarJle by the law of England. Now, if that were the case, it was evident the state of the law re quired consideration. Col. FRENCH begged of his hon. and learned friend to rest sati.fied with the assurance or the Government, and to withdraw his motion. Mr. DOBBS considered the law in Ireland was much too severe on this point, and that it ought to be modi fied. _ _ Mr. BLAND then withdrew hie motion. PUBLIC PLAYGROUNDS. Mr. SLANEY moved for leave to bring in a b:11 in order to enable grants of land being made near popu lous places for the use and regulated recreation of adults, and as playgrounds for children. An HON. MEMBER here suggested there were not 40 members present ; however, by the time the Speaker came to count the house, the members present were so recruited as to justify the prolongation r.f the sittin4. Mr. BRISCOE seconded the motion of hi 3 hon. friend. Mr. WALPOLE, on the part of the Government, would not offer any opposition to the introduction (.1 the measure. _ _ _ Accordingly, the hon. member obtained Lave to in troduce his bill. MANNING THE NAVY. Sir C. NAPIER, in pursuance of notice, proceeded to bring forward his motion for a commission to inquire into the best means of manning the navy. He said, th, time bad corns when the House of Commons, the Go_ vernment, and the country Elvrild iay their shoulders to the wheel with the vie R of devising some system ef manning the navy in a manner worthy of the country and of the service itself. He should, cf course, be told by the First Lord o f t h e Admiralty that this was not t Froper time to bring such a sill jct under the notic , - ~f the house ; but he had waited for upwards ( f 40 year —(a laugl.)— , ver since the peace of 1815—in the hope that this i aiportant question would have been taken ui by some Government, either Whig or Tory, but he had waited in vain. He bad been making suggestions to the Admiralty for the last 40 yeah for the improveme the navy, but they bad produced little eff,tct. As far back as 1816 he had written to the Admiralty against the system of impressment, and frequently since he had proposed schemes to modify or put an end to it ; but b nothing had vned that yet if t h b e e y e n w d e o r e n e t o to re a c b u o r li t s o h ira th p e re s s y sm st e e n m. t the seamen would not stand it—they had got a better notion of their rights than they formerly had, and they would resist any attempt t o impress a man on board ship- Formerly the horrors of the system were very great. If a wife wanted to get quit of her husband, a father of his son, or a son of his father, they had only to bribe the pressgang, and the poor victim was forced into:the service. Even the Speaker of the House of Comonons, if he had once got into the hands of the press gang, would have found it impossible to get off. (A. laud.) They would have paid no attention to his re morestrancee, or would not have believed him. He knew something of the subject, for long ago he had been en gaged in these transactions himself. (Hear.) Unless Parliament were prepared to resort to some regular mode of manning the navy it must again have re course to the system of impressment —a system under whiola the sailor was subjected to a degree of slavery whirl), he coutended, ought not to prevail in the case of any class of rata in a free country like England. But the real question for the consideration of the house was what were the best means for manning our navy which could be adopted ? In order to attain that object, he thought it expedient that the greatest encouragement should be held out to those who entered the service. He would, for instance, have the pay of the petty officers on boiled ship increased, and would allow them to rise to the rank of mate, affording them every facility possible for obtaining a good e lucation. He felt assured that if that course were pursued, and the seaman was afforded the inducement of having within his reach the attain me of rank in the service, the best possible results would be found to accrue. He did not, however, think that means which he had just mentioned would be in themselves quite sufficient to effect the object which he had in view. An additional e ncouragemen t m i g ht b e found in the re-establishment upon a better footing of the merchant seamen's fund, with the management of which the sailors had become so disgusted that they had alraost altogether given up being subscribers. He believed that fund now received from the Treasury a sum of only 65,0001, per annum, but if the amount were considerably increased sailors would be induced to become regular contributors to the fund, and the means would thus be furnished of providing pensions for their widows and orphans. That much good would thereby be effected he had no doubt, and his own views as to the expediency of taking some such step were borne out by the opinion of a gentleman who was conversant with the subject, and with whom be had been in communication with respect to it very rscantly. A commission had been appointed in 1853 which bad recommended that a bounty should be given to sailors, but upon that, as well as upon seve ral other recommendations of the commission, Parlia ment had not thought proper to act. He might further observe that the authorities by breaking faith with our seamen had caused a loss of confidence upon their part which was calculated to operate most prejudicially. Nut very long ago, for instance, a gratuity used to be given to sailors for good conduct to the amounts of 61, 71., and 101., but the Admiralty in its wisdom had not hesitated to take away that trifling boon even from those sailors who had entered into the service in the expectation that they would be entitled to the privilege. (Hear.) Re might also mention that the system prevailed of grant ingtoprithvileemgeen, stripes on their arms as marks of distinc tion, each stripe bein g accompanied with additional pay. This they withdrew, so that when the men became petty officers they did not receive more than before. He believed that lately the Admiralty had reinstated matters, and had allo wed the petty officers to gain the stripes, so that this groin(' of complaint had been taken away. In 1857 we had as fine a navy—at least, what remained of it—as could possibly be, yet numbers of the men who composed our crews entered in 1858 as raw recruits. He was informed that tbe mer chant fervice only furnished 400 seamen to our Baltic fleet in 1851 and 300 in 1855. When the House of Corn- MOPS was asked to reduce the navy in 1857, and eight sail of the line were paid off, the continuous service men who had enlisted for 10 years' were not told that they wereturreeerdut, but that they Might go if they liked. The' nien availed themselves Of the privilege very largely. 'ln 1857 there were 17,432 continuous service men in the fleet, of whom 2,973 were discharged. However e he did not approve the 10 years' continuous service system. He believed that Sir James Graham's plan was wiser—to enter the sailors for five years, but he would only take practically three years' service out of them. If the ships were kept in commission five years—and their stores would last that time—the officers might be relieved every two years or two and a-half years, so that other officers would have an opportunity of seeing service. Otherwise there would be continued the state of things described by his hon. and gallant friend (Admiral Walcott), who for 20 years went on his knees to the Admiralty to allow him to see active service, but in vain. He would keep the ships constantly moving about. The soldiers were removed from Gibraltar, to :delta, the lonian Islands, the West Indies, &c., and he would do the same with the sailors. He would let them coins home occasionally to see their wives and friends and have a run on shore. When he first knew the navy the sailors scarcely knew where the shore was. They never saw the face of the fair sex, and this was a hor rible state of things. (A. laugh.) Tee men in the West India squadron of Sir W. Parker were never ashore for three years, and other fleets were the same. Wnen he went out in command of a squadron the !ate Lord Auck laud asked him whether he ought to let the men go ashore He said he would let them go ashore, whether they got drunk or not, for the evil would right itself. (Hear.) When they got to Lisbon the scenes were very bad. lie recommended the authorities to put all the drunken sailors they could find into the guardhouse, and keep them there for two or three days. The Govern ment cempained, but he resisted. The Queen sent a me maga to him not to let the sailors come ashore. Still be persisted, and the result was that in a short time the men wh elwere allowed to go on shore behaved as well as the officers. (Hear, hear.) Under the ten years' con t;nuous service system the tie between the Royal Navy and the merchant service would be almost severed, be cause the vacancies would be so few that they would be filled up by the boys. But if the men were taken for five years they would then probably take their turn in the merchant service, and tell the men there that the Royal .. Navy was not so b a d a pr o f ess i on. Thi s wou ld b e b etter for the navy than ten years' continuous service, which the men did not like. The late First Lord of the Adam ralty said it was true that the men were discharged with their own coneent in 1857, but that they had passed over the quarter-deck and entered themselves again for five years' service. He had ascertained how the case stood, and he found that only 63 men had crossed the quarter deck and entered again. In 1857 the Admiralty paid off eight ships of war, on the ground of economy. It was sup posed that a saving of 100,0001, or 150,0001. would be thereby effected. But those ships could not be put in the same state under 200,0001. A ship newly fitted out would last five years., but if it were put out of commission at the end of one or two years, there were sure to be com plaints of inefficiency, and the ship was usually newly caulked, coppered, masted, and rigged at a great ex• pence for very trifling defects. The Act of 1835 was amended by the Act of 1853. The double bounty was repealed, and the register was abandoned. He disap proved both those alterations, and thought the Act of 1835 would have been much better amendel if the Actof 1853 had merely provided that extra pay should not be given to seamen unless in time of war, and that the men should be called out i© classes. He did not say that they should begin the register over again, but some means ought to be found for enforcing the calling out men by proclamatioa. ([Tear.) The manning of the fleet was as simple a thing as could possibly be. Supposing the Chan nel fleet was to be composed of ten sail of the line, three of then, should be flagships. He would discharge from the ships in time of peace one-half the marines. Those matinee should garrison the whole of the seaport towns. In the event of war they would go on board again, and the militia would walk into their places. In a case of emergency they might discharge one watch to another ship. The cats -guard men must remain to take care of the revenue ; but if they called out the Coast Volun teers, they might, by his plan, muster men enough for 50 sail of the line within a fortnight, and that torce would be completed in a very short time. He did not say that Louis Napoleon was going to invade this coun try. God forbid ! He hoped he would not, but Louis Napoleon might not be his own master. (Hear.) The French army had lately been increased by 40,000, and now numbered 500,000 men. According to the repro sentaione of the late First Lord of the Admiralty, while we had 42 screw ships, France had 40. Franca had 70000 trained seamen for fitting out a fleet. A quarrel might arise. They very nearly had one the other day and he was not quite sure it was overyet. People armed to tbe teeth at all points could pick a quarrel whenever they pleased. (Hear.) He woul I ask the house what position England would be in if t iey hard tsanorrow there were 14 sail of the line manned at Cherbourg and 40,000 or 50,000 tr iops snt there by the railroads. What would be the etrel; on the funds People would be running aboet right and lert, but there would be no means of defence. He sp o k e pl a i n ly, b ecause it was quite imma terial whether he did so or not. The French knew whet we had in cur ports, just as well as we knew what they had in theirs. We e ere in a defenceless state. We would not believed p atyina that if i n t s h u e rt i i , n i c i a m o f tr iu o i n u i r s r y lives stoodau and ip properly. in h i; lie Place and said he a weld not be reeponsiale for the safety CI the kingdom unless there were ti n sail of the line, the whole c uetry would cheer him from one end to the other. (dear.) The ceuetly did not understandit, nor did members ef Pardaenent, nor merchants of the city of London. (Hear ) The time was come when they ought not to defer for a day longer the put ing the navy in a proper state. The re must be a fleet indep.mdent both of the c east-guard and of this volunteers, who formed only a res,..rve fur cases of emergency. If the French were to make a descent upon our coast what should we do ? Tire Commander-in-Chief could not take the field with more than 30,000 men, while to p l' r a s t e n sand e h t o a i :nt interests s t a t r h s m e a r y n s 'daft honour ouorloonf wren,etree arid properly countrywopeehr l a y: utnroo fleet shipspe t oueht to be put to sea certain of victory. In the battle of the let of June the Ft ench fleet was not manned or officered as it ought to have been, owing to the Revolu tion ; but, in soite ;fall this, never was an action Letter fought, and the enemy never hauled down their flags until nearly heaf their ships' crews were bore de com bat. Now, the French sailere were as well dis i plined as ours—in feed, better ; both men aid officers were con tartCy employed, anti the rnen, afte eu p'oyment f tr live years all to, were li eble to serve gain if ca led upon. Sure y he had sail c n nigh . to ,how that it behoved the eaiiii - aer , wh oever he murk oe, to come down to tei house and say, " I nUS : wor e at my die e osal a proper fleet." He (Sir C. Na pier) did not a any ex ravag int expenditure. 'There were many ways in which a great deal of money could e e saved. Far example, he believed that 20,0001. or 30,0001. might be saved by putting a stop to the nonsense which now went on through having an Admiralty at Whitehall, d another at Somerset-house. He wanted a commission to inqu're into all these things—not only ;he questiou of manning, but one which would investi gate everything in the dockyards, to see how it was that PROBATE DUTY ON REAL PROPERTY W. WILLIAMS then rose to move the fo'1 • ing resolution , v iz., "That in the opinion of this ho use property an d im p ro p ria te tithes should yt s b e e , P l s ame probate duty as t h a t now payable on personal p pery, and that proper l y belon g in g to corporati , ns, ti r tl bishoprics, and deans a n d c h apters, sheorkuiltdie payP, colleges, probate and legacy duties equivalent t o th o e v now levied on personal property. The honourable member in stating his reasons for denouncing as a gr eat justice the exemption of lauded and all other descrip tions of real property from the payment of probate duty, observed that the jujus ice had bean inflicted in 1796. lie believed by in.posiug this tax on the richer classes the Exchequer would be augmented to the amount cf 2,500,000 annually, He called on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to carry out the policy in this respect which he had enunciated in 1852. Mr. HADFIELD seconded the motion. Mr. ALCOCK thought the house ought to f el in• ilebted to the hon. member for bringing for ward this motion, believing that landed property did not pay its fair share of the general taxation. It was only reason able and fair that lanied property should pay the same proportion as all other property. him Mr. GLA.DSTONE rose ti reply to the question put to by the bon. and lea r n e d mem b er for whether,Sheffield in 1153, when he (Ur. Gladstone) bad the honour o f proposing him hiso n thebil poan:t o th f e . s th uc e c ir es G si o o v n e d en u tu ty t , nt i , t Was declared b y it was th e i r intention to propose that the probate duty should b e applied to l priated tithes the same ailded propery, and lay unapt)] o• as on personal property. Ile WEDNESDAY EVENING, MAY 19, 1858. at Haslar 40 or 50 gunboats were so drawn up that they could not be launched for two months, and inquire also whether the Admiralty was properly carried on. The commission should not be composed of Lords of the Ad miralty or of any who had served in that capacity, but of men experienced in the service who were not warped by red-tape. Such a commission, he believed, would pay well for the service done ; and he therefore begged to move,—" That an humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that she wid be graciously pl9ased appoint a commission to inquire into the best means of manning the navy and improving its management, with a view to reduce its ex2enditure without impairing its efficiency." _ _ Mr. LINDSAY said he believed the difficulty at preE eat experienced in manning our navy formed one of the most important subjects to which the attention of the house could be directed. He confessed it appeared to him that a committee of the house would form a better tribunal than a commission for inquiring into the question. There was a difficulty experienced in the manning of our ships of war which was not telt in the manning of our merchant ships. Now that was a ques tion which ought to be inquired into by a committee, which could consider many more important quesCons relatirg to the subject than a commission could do. He thought that the inquiry ought to extend to every thing connected with the dockyards, which, in his opinion, could be placed upon a much bettor footing than they were at present, and at a less expense (hear). Admiral BUNCOMBE, who had given notice of an amendment for the appointment of a select committee in stead of a commission, said he thought that a committee of that house would be better able to elicit information on the important subject of manning the navy than a commission. At the present moment there were four ships, the finest of their class, the Marlborough, Euryolus, Renown, and Racoon, which were unable to ' proceed to their stations for want of men, though the first two had been in commission three months, and the last two six months. The time was come when this subject of manning the navy must be thoroughly inquired into, and means provided for remedying the deficiencies which undoubtedly existed in our present system. In 1856, at the end of the Russian war, Sir F. Berkeley said in that house that the war had thoroughly shown our weakness in this respect—that we had got to the end of our tether when peace was made, and that had the war continued he should have been puzzled to say how we should have got on for men. The idea was most humiliating. (Hear.) It the sums voted by that house were efficiently applied, a general system of man ning the navy might be established which would place us in complete security so far as the supply of seamen was concerned. He was not aware until he came down to the house that the Government intended to grant a com mission, but having put his notice on the paper, he should move it, and leave it in the hands of the house to deal with as might seem best. The gallant admiral conoluded by moving as an amendment that a select committee be appointed to inquire into the best means of manning the navy and of i m p rov i ng it s ma na g ement, with a view to reduce its expenditure without impairing its efficiency. Mr. LINDSAY said he should prefer a select com mittee, since the question was far too important to be eft to commission. A Royal commission would to a certain extent be a secret committee of inquiry. The in quiry ought to be extended to everything connected with the dockyards, in which he believed there was a great deal of waste labour. (Hear, hear.) He believed that 10 men in the merchant service would do as much work as 15 in the Royal navy. Admiral WALCOTT preferred a commission to a committee, because thoroughly able naval officers, not only in, but out of that house, could conduct the inquiry if a commission were appointed. The question of man ning and managing the Royal navy was of momentous interest to the country. Ever since he had become a tnembe,r of that house he had from time to time attempted to impress upon the First Lord of the Admiralty the iniportance of 12 sail-of-the line, at all timosrea;dy 'to defend our coasts against inva s ion. I u forus'tFslayil we ; had an abundance of daredevil sallore to ipiOte,CAtiks,in case of emergency, and he hoped for - the more" attention would be given by the Admiralty to our home defences. The manning of our navy had been rendered more difficult by the introduction of steam into the mer cantile navy. Steam had dispensed with the services of many men in that which used to be the great nucleus of the Royal navy ; and scarcely any appren tices were now to be found in it. Moreover, more foreigners were now employed in the merchant service, because they could be obtained at a cheaper rate than our own seamen. Nevertheless those who had at heart the defence of our shores need not be much alarmed, for he believed that there were in our merchant service 180,000 men. The days of impressment had gone by, and he was glad of it, for impressment was little less than slavery. We were not in so melancholy a condi tion as the hon. and gallant admiral had represented with regard to our navy, but almost every other statement of his was perfectly true. It was true that in war our seamen were not allowed to go on shore for three, or five, or seven years ; but to say that they were never allowed during those periods to see the face of a woman was going a little too far. {Sr C. Napier.—l alluded to the ships in the Tagus.] Women were allowed to go on board the ships in the Mediterranean and the West Indies every second day to supply the seamen with clean ctothe. Inrd C. PAGET thought that a committee of that house would be able to procure better evidence than a Royal COMllligAioll3, which would, most likely consist of very distinguished old naval officer", some of them pro bawdy now belonging to or who had belonged to the Ad iniralty. He had the greatest respect for them, but there was a kind of odour of sanctity about them (a laugh) which would prevent them from receiving the opinions of younger officers. Another important rea son why he should prefer a committee of the house to a royal commission was the delay which would take place in the appointment of the latter. Thera were many gentlemen in that house well qualified to serve upon[uela a committee. There was the hon. member for Norfolk, a perfect Christopher Columbus. (A. laugh) Then there was the bon. member for Ashton, and there were many naval officers of experience in the house. At the present moment the country had in the Coast Guard a perfect defence against any invasion. That was a force of great utility, having been recruited as it was by seamen paid off at the close of the war, and having been under the able superintendence of Com modore Eden. (Hear, hear.) There was, however, no opportunity for members of that force again going to sea, and it was most important to consider how its ranks should be reinforced, for, able and efficient as it was at present, unless proper means were taken to recruit its ranks, it might come to consist of a set of men like those complained of by the gallant admiral foe always reading the Bible with their spectacles on. [Sir C. Na. p n aie l d lre would hrye de an observation which did not reach the g sailors should that the members of the force would become elderly men a and activity which was so essential , and therefore he thought that some steps should be taken to keep that gallery.] made he meant no offence, it was proper thata read their Bibles, but what he meant was ,consequently, not be possessed of that energy admirable p f r o o r v c e e d in m i d s e p r o e f s e manning t a efficienttat h s efl l e In h e . t would ldoiin not naval officer was perfectly satisfied with the exertions which had been made by the right hon. gentleman at the head of the Admiralty, but he found fault with part of his administration. In 1852-3 there was a committee of naval officers appointed to inquire into the question of manning the navy. They reported that it was desirable to employ ships of war for the purpose of transport in stead of hired vessels, where that could be done without prejudice to the public servic3 ; but their recommenda tion had never been carried into effect, notwithstanding the number of shies available for that duty. At Liver p eel there was a line-of-bettle ship, commanded by an excellent officer, and which was fit to go to sea to-mor row, and yet he had seen in a newspaper that the steamer P ac ifi c , of 1,500 tons burden, had been taken up to carry troops to Ireland, and in the same newspaper he read that the City of Manchester, a steamer of 2,109 tons, had been chartered to convey troops to Gibraltar. Now these were services which could wr 11 have been per formed by ships of war, and in his opinion the statement which was sometimes made, that carrying troops inter fered with the discipline of a man of war was entirely without -foundation. On the contrary, he thought that if more ships were employed a larger num ber of able seamen would be retained in the service of the State. In the estimates of the present year he found a sum of 495,0001. for the hire of transports. Now, the estimate this year for carrying out the recom mendations of the committee was 50,0001. If a part of this useless expenditure of 495,000/. was applied towards keeping up men-of-war transports, employment would be found for half-pay officers who were now wasting their best years on shore, while a great saving would be effected in the item of tran , porte. He had suggested on a former occasion that the crew of the 11 .yal Albert, three decker, instead of being turned adrift upon the world, should be kept together and made to do the work of the dockyard at Portsmouth or Plymouth. In the dockyare's we had now 500 men einpl iyed in our boys, 400 riggers, and 2,500 labourers, the work performed by all of whom might be done by the sailors of our fleet. He was con vinced that, without adding a shilling to the r xpenditure of the country, we naught obtain a ltrge accession to our force of regular seamen ; and he trusted that a com mittee would he appointed to take these matters into cersiderae Mr. BENTINCK contrasted the thinness of the house on that occasion, when a question involving not the honour or the reputation, but the very existence of the country was under discussion, with the crowded attend ance the other evening, when the simple issue was whether certain gentlemen should sit on one vide of the house or the other. During a portion of that important discussion only 15 members were present, though that assembly was the reeresentative chamber of the firs maritime nation in the woll J. It had been shown that what was called economy in these matters WAS in nine cases out of ten nothing but extravagance and waste. There was no u , e blinking the fact, that when they tAlleid of the necessity of maintain ing their naval defences they meant simply this—were ' they or were they not in a position to resist attack from their near,st neighbour I The exact condition of our naval defences and everything that passed in ow dockyards were very well known in France, an l it was therefore quite and absurd to affect any mystifica tion about the ma'tr. They had to cousider how far ;hey were able to repel a French invasion, not that he anticipated anything of that kind. The distinguished m in now on the throne of France would, no doubt, do a 1 in his power, in the interest of both countries, to p . event the outbreak of hostilities hetween them ; but he was not omnipotent, and after what had recently oc curred in England no man could say what might be the consequences of a casualty. Not withinanding what bad fAlen from the gallant admiral opposite, it was not very clear how we could at all .times command a sufficient numher of seamen for Mbetiog what was termed an emer gency, but which simply meant an invasion, without. maintaining the "continuous service" system. It appeared that a few months ago we bad not a single vessel in commission that was efficient for the purposes of defence, and he believed we were still in an unprotected state. He was in favour of the appointment of a committee, which he thought would be the most expeditious mode of inquiry. That inquiry ought to extend to the constitution of the Board of Ad miralty, which was totally inefficient to perform its duties. The proof of this was furnished by the fact that that house was now trying to solve the problem of the manning of the navy. He entirely concurred in the ob servations of his noble and gallant friend (Lord C. Paget) with regard to the transport service, and was quite convinced that if he moved for a return of the cost of that service since the commencement of the Cri mean war he should be able to show that the money wastefully expended upon it would have been sufficient to build a navy. He hoped that the present Board of Admiralty would entirely remodel and re-organise our transport system. (Hear.) Sir J. PAKINGTON was sorry that the hon. and gal lant member for the East Riding of Yorkshire should have thought that the Government had been guilty of any discourtesy with regard to this motion ; but he certainly did anticipate that another debate, of which the house was now in the middle, would have occupied every night this week, and that this question would have been postponed. Turning to the speech of the hon. and gallant officer opposite (Sir C. Napier) he thought that he had borne rather hardly upon successive Boards of Admiralty when he said that it was in vain for any offi cer to approach the board, because any representations from officers of the navy were always treated with indif ference. (Hear.) He should himself he exceedingly sorry to be guilty of any discourtesy either to the gallant admiral or any other officer of the navy, and from his experience, which was limited to a very few weeks, he could not believe that the members of the naval profes sion, who succeeded each other at that board, would show any disiuclination to entertain proposals which might come from such high and justly respected authorities as the gallant admiral. He honoured the feelings which had led the hon. and gallant officer to pre: s this matt r upon the attention of Parliament ; he fully admitted the difficulty, if not danger, to which this country was ex posed by attention not having been paid to this subject earlier, but be thought that the house would do him the justice to admit that a great part of the speech of the gal lant admiral was directed to the topics which he himself brought under the notice ef the house when introducing the navy estimates. (Hear.) He then expressed in strong terms the deep sense which he entertained of the importance of this subject, and stated how anxious he felt to find some remedy for the existing state of things. He then referred to the slowness with which our ships were manned ; but he was happy to inform his hon. and gallant friend behind him (Capt. Duncombe) that con siderable progress had since been made is completing the crews of the very ships which he had mentioned. He a'so alluded to what he thought the very unwise dis missal of the continuous service men and the paying off of ships last year, and to the necessity of recomuais sinning the same ships this year ; and stated the views of ithe Government upon that practice of commis sioning ships for a short time, which he then and still thought a most unwise practice, and which he hoped to amend. He was sure that the gallant admiral and his hon. and gallant friend behind him would admit that those were matters which could not be coryected in a few days or weeks. On the same occasion he stated, almost in the words of his hon. and gallant friend, that the defenceless state of our ()coasts was humiliating and disgeaceful to the country as a naval power. (Hear.) Since then he had from day to day been endeavouring in conjunction with the Board of Admiralty to remedy that state of things, and he hoped with some success. We had now more ships and men available than we had at that time. He did not seek to attain impossibilities by endeavouring to correct in a few weeks evils which were the result , of the irupolicy of years; what he aimed at and what he did not despair of accomplishing was, to put our navy an such a permanent footing that England should not again suffer- the same risk and the same inconvenience to which she was now exposed. (Rear.) At the same time he must express the regret with which he had heard the gallant admiral say that we had no means of defence and no ships. (Sir C. Napier said that he had not used such an expression.) lie could assure the gallant admiral that he took his words down, and they were that we hed no defence whatever and no ships. No doubt he meant that we had no ships in lull commission or in the channel. [Hear, hear, from Sir C. Napier.] In the ports we had some of the noblest ships that were ever built. (Hear.) At Sheerness, at Portsmouth, and at Pqmouth, we had some of the no blest men-of-war ever launched, which were in the first condition of steam ordinary and could be prepared for sea in 43 hours. (Hear.) He was sorry to say that at this moment we had not the means of manning them so readily as he could wish, but supposing an emergency should arise he had that faith in the spirit and energy of the country that he believed there would be no difficulty in sending a fleet inter the channel at a very short no tice. (Hear, hear.) He was very glad to hear trom I he hon. and gallant admiral that he did not think that this country would sanction the resort to any compulsory manning of the navy or any return to the system of impressment. (Rear, hear.) He did not be lieve the spirit of the country would hear a return to that system. (Hear, hear.) The only result of its adop tion would be to drive our sailors to other countries, and he hoped that we should never sanction any plan • for manning the navy more stringent than that adopted for recruiting the army. (Hear, hear.) If, then, we could not adopt compulsion we must turn to other means, and must ends tvour to put our navy on sceperinanent a foot ing that we might at all times, and under all circum stances, rely upon having a force which should amply provide for the defence of the country. The real and practical question was, how that was to be done ? and he quite acknowledged that that was a fair subject for inquiry. When notice of the motion was given he stated in private conversation with the hon and gallant mem ber for Southwark that inquiry had already taken place to a sufficient extent ; but, upon reconsideration, he had altered that opinion, and he would shortly ex plain to the house the reason of the change. The noble lord the member for Sandwich had asked him whether he had ever seen the report of the committee of 1852 with respect to the manning of the navy. To that report he had alluded at considerable length upon a former occasion, when he stated what the noble lord would admit to he the fact, that the report in question was the origin of all the improvements recently introduced as regarded man ning the navy. He thought that the hon. and gallant ; member for Southwark had hardly done justice to the contents of that valuable report. The hon. and gallant admiral had stated that the recommendations of the com mittee with respect to bounties and other matters had not boon carried o ut, b u t, w ith one except i on, he had omitted all reference to those parts of the report which hail been carried into eff ec t. A grea t d ea l o f w h a t h a d fallen from the hon. and gallant officer on the subject of the continuoes service system he bad heard with regret, for he bad no idea that the gallant admiral disapproved the system of continuance for 10 years. He believed the dismissal of 3,000 continuance service men by the late Government was one of the most unfortunate steps con nected with the navy which had ever been taken. The Board of Admiralty had been occupied for the last few weeks in anxious endeavours to give extended effect to the continuance service system. Their object was to in crease the number of continuance service men. They were also considering measures connected with the sys tem of pensions, and were devoting a good deal of atten tion to the present state of the petty officers of the navy, being anxious to adopt a system under which no man should be allowed to hold rank and pay as a petty officer unless he had entered for continuance service. It was by such measures that they hoped to effect their object of est ablhbing a good standing navy. The noble lord the member for Sandwich had referred to the Royal Albert, and had recommended that the crew should be held to gether. That, however, could not be done until all the Men were entered under the continuance service system. In addition to that system the country had derived con siderable advantage from thecoastguard and naval volun. teers. The establishment of the corps of naval volun teers was entirely o wing to the committee of 1852. It might be termed a marine militia, and he thought the hon. and gallant member for Southwark would hardly re commend that more compulsion should be resorted to wOh respect to it than was now adopted in the case ef the land militia, at all events until it had been proved that the present system had failed. At present the vo lunteer plan was most successful, and solar as the naval volunteers and the Coast-guard were concerned we had a reserve which, though nut so numerous as it ought to be, was still very effective. The noble lord tie member for Sandwich bed expressed a fear that the Coastguard were allowed to become rusty and unsuited to sea ser vice. That was a point to which the Board of Admi ralty were directing their attention. They hoped to perfect a system under which the seagoing po tiers of the men should be kept in constant activity. With re spect to the three most important points c onnected with the navy—the continuance service system, the Coasts guard, and the naval volunte ers —the committee of 1852 had conferred great benefits upon the . country, and had rsndored unnecessary any further inquiry. But there was one branch of the subject to which the attention ef that committee had not been sufficiently directed—he meant the value and cepabileee3 of the mercantile marine as an auxiliary to the Royal navy, and it was here, he thought, that further inquiry might take place with ad va eye. Since the committee drew up their report consi derable changes had occurred in the constitution ( f the mercantile marine, and in consenting to a further in quiry he by no means wished t o th row the slightest „ ,; ne upon the gallant and very distinguished officer wire eunducted the investigation of 1852. It was of the ut most importance, however, that means ,hould be found for makieg, the mercantile marine more useful to the navy in case of emerge nc y, an d with that view hs thought it desirable that some inquiry should be insti• cutest. Teen came ths question whether the investiea tiou should be intrusted to a commis .ion or to a com m ttee. He pre f. rred a connni,sion. There was no reason why a commission, as aeticipated by tee noble lord the member fc r Sandwich, s h ou 'd consist exclusively t naval officers and Lords of the Admiralty ; on the c intrary, one of his reasons for preferring a commission to a cow:in:tee was that it would enable the country to ;team the assistaece of gentlemen practically accurairoteu with the mercantile mari ne . B-sides, it was important that the inquiry should be carried on and concluded as irornptly ; es possible, and the noble lord the menilo r for eandwich Was wrong in supposing; that delay wou d be he necessary result of a commission. If the house ap proved a coartei;sion he would take care that there should be no unnecessary delay in its appointment ; and when once appointed it might sit whenever it eithout reference to holidat s or aejeurnments, arid carry on the inquiry continuously. The result would be that the public would receive the report with greater prompt ness than the well.known dilatory proceedings of a coin mittee of the House of Committee admitted of. (Hear, hear.) Such an inquiry would be better conducted by a commission than by a committee of 15 mem bers of Parliament, many of whom would not, of course, be cognisant of all the difficulties and intricacies of the subject. To this extent he was willing to meet the proposal of the hon, and gallant member for South wark, but he could not consent to the second portion cf the motion. He by no means denied the great import ance of the subjects to which the hon: and gallant admi ral had referred, but what were they I The gallant ad miral had adverted to the constitution and working of the dockyard-, to the whole constitution of th e B oar d of Admiralty, and to the whole management of the Royal Navy. Now, he asked hon. members how soon did they think there would be a chance of obtaining any re port, either from a committee or commission, if the in quiry was not to be confined to the question of manning the navy, but to be extended to all those other subjects.. He thought it one of the most unbusiness-like proposals he ever heard. The manning cf the navy was a most important, distinct, and practical question, which a body of gentlemen might direct their attention to and make their report on ; but if the gallant admiral thought the constitution of the Admiralty or of the dock yards required correction, let him make a distinct motion on that subject ; but in the course of a long speech he had alleged ro reasons why the commission should go into that extensive inquiry. He might be permitted to say, however, that the present Board of Admiralty were not negligent with regard to that subject and other subjects. They were now engaged in organising two committees. To one of them was to be intrusted an inquiry into our steam machinery and the best mode of applying steam to the Royal navy. That was one large subject of inquiry of great importance. Toe other committee was to investi gate the present system of the dockyards. It appeared that in reference to efficiency and economy some inquiry was necessary. He was now preparing a committee of in quiry on that subject, and he believed that by such a coin mittee the inquiry would be more effectually carried out toan by embarrassing a committee or commission with the investigation of the whole of these subjects. He would give the house some little idea of the extent of these in- , quiries by stating that a very eminent individual connected with the mercantile marine informed some of the gentle- • men organising these committees that the different beacs of inquiry could not be satisfactorily gone through under three years. He mentioned this to show that the gallant admiral was preparing more work than any com mittee or commission could satisfactorily perform. (llear.) These were the reasons why he could not con sent to the latter part of the motion, and therefore he should suggest that the motion should conclude with the words, " manning the navy." With that alteration he was willing to consent to the motion. (Hear, hear.) Lord PALMERSTON thought that they were all agreed as to the great importance of the subject to which his hon. and gallant friend had so ably called the attention of the house, and he should not, therefore, trouble the house with any observations in support of the object he had in view. The only question on which there was any difference of opinion was to the relative advantages of a committee or commission. Perhaps either of these means of inquiry would very suffi ciently accomplish the object in view, but he thought ; that there were reasons why a c unmission was preferable to a committee. Some of these reasons bad been indicated by the right hon. baronet opposite. In the first place a commission was a more " continuous service" instrument than a committee. L. commission sat during adjournments and prorogations and could go from place to place. In taking the evidence, there would b 3 more facility of interspersing conversations with el - . auainations, and a greater freedom of communication between the persons conducting the inquiry and the persons examined, in the case of a commission than the formality f proceedings in a committee would probably allow. (Hear, bear.) He should therefore support the motion of his hon. and gallant friend for a commission in preference to the amendment suggesting another mode of inquiry. (Elear, hear.) The right hon. bare net opposite had„enggested the expediency of limiting the inquiry to the subject mentioned -in the first part of the suotkoti,-aid be..would:reco:mmend his hon,. and gallant friend to accept the suggestion. That ; subjSck would be quite sufficient to occupy the commission for a considerable time ; and his hon. and gallant friend, if he succeeded by his motion in providing a good plan for securing the manning of the navy, would accouv plish a great national object, for which the country would be deeply indebted to him. (Hear, hear.) Mr. WARRE concurred in the statement of the hoe. member for Norfolk, that if they wanted a good article they must give the market price for it, and he trusted as the continuous service system was about to be restored, that the house, when the proposition came before it, would not object to vote the money for the purpose. Ai the difficulty of obtaining men for the navy had been ad verted to, he would observe that there was no difficulty in obtaining lads from 14 to 17 years of age. They `gele perfectly willing to enter the service, and would soon I riss into men ; an d w h en once they b egan the service they were apt to abide by it. If that were so, it would be worth while to make some expenditure for the purpose of "receiving a number of these lade, and training and educating them. He preferred * committee to a commission, as an instrument of inquiry: and he presumed that the hon. and gallant admire.' would not be indisposed to limit his motion in the WO' ner suggested by the First Lord of the Admiralty. Mr. BARROW was of opinion that an inquiry by committee of that house would be more satisfactory than an investigation by a royal commission. Sir C. NAPIER thanked the First Lord of the Ad miralty for acceding to the appointment of a COMMlS sioa, and expressed his readiness to adopt the suggestion of she right hon, baronet by limiting his motion to the manning of the navy Admiral BUNCOMBE withdrew his amendment , and The first clause of Sir C. Napier's motion, for the ar pointment of a commission to inquire into the )0 14 means of manning the navy, was agreed to. TITLES TO LAND (SCOTLAND). The LORI FADVOCATE moved for leave to brief; in a WI to simplify the forms and diminish the expense of completing titles to land in Scotland. Leave was given. REVISION OF THE VALUATION OF IRELAND , Mr. GROGAN moved that the house resolve itself into a committee to consider of an address to het Majesty praying that directions might be given that the ratepayers of Ireland be relieved from one-half of the expenses of the annual revision of valuation, and to ov. sure her Majesty that the house would make good the same. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that there were strong grounds for the claim, a nd he had called for a report from Sir Richard Griffin on tho case, which was now in his possession, but which b• had not been able as yet to investigate. He assured the hon. gentleman, however, that he would give his serious attention to the subject. Mr. GROGAN was willing to leave the matter in th e hands of the right hon. gentleman, and withdrew hie motion. WEIGHTS .9ND MEASURES BILL. Mr. LOCKE moved the second reading of this bill' Mr. HORSFALL moved as an amendment, that the bill be read a second time that day six months. Mr. PAGET seconded the amendment. After some discussion, Mr. HENLEY said it was clear, from the diversity of opinion upcn the subject, that they were not at Pre sent in a position to legislate upon it. He therefore ra" commended Mr. Locke to withdraw his bill. Alto' some observations from Mr. LOCKE and Mr' PACKE, The house then divided, when the numbers were-- For the second reading Against... 92 Majority again-t the second —• CHURCH RATES ABOLITION BILL. The bill was considered as amended, and the thin' reading fixed for Tuesday week. STAMP DUTY ON PASSPORTS BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. The house then adjourned at five minutes to on . o'clock. Country Markets. LIVERPOOL. MAY 18. To-day the trade generally was dull. Wheat without alteration of price, the millers avoiding it as the bakers find a cheaper relative value in French flour at 333 Gd to 3 s per 2801bs, sack included. Indian corn, beaus, oats, and other articles unchanged. NEWCASTLE-MAT IS. South country wheat in limited supply, and held for higher rates. In foreign a fair amount of business doingi at is advance on Saturday's rates. Flour in good deman d and the turn dearer. Barley quiet. Oats firm and n3OO business doing. Beans and peas in firm demand, at Ist ° rates. LEEDS, MAY 18. The trade is very firm, but the quantity offering check: business, and no advance on Friday's rates can be eats lis.bed except i n some casual cases. Barley unaltere d. Oats and beans steady. Other articles as before. Av f the week : , Wheat, 45s 4:ld erages Oats, or 26s 114 d Peas, —a Ou• Barley, 35 s lid I Beans, 42s It lid Rye, 31s 6d• BIRTHS. BIGNOLD- O❑ the 15th inst., at 8, Oxford terrace, Nuls - ark, Mrs. Charles Bignold, of a son. LEONARD On the 17th inst., at Raglan-terrace, Highball' the wife of Mr. E. J. Leonard, of a son. LOVELL—On the 18th in t., at 18, Milner-square, Is li"‘ ton, the wife of C. H. Lovell, Esq., of a son. MARRIAGES. A LEXANDER --PHIPPS —On the 18th inst., at St. Michiter° Church, Chester-square, John Wallis Alexander, E s r ti son or Sir Robert Alexander, Bart., to Lady L e fi e , Charlotte Phipps ' (laughter of the late Earl of Mulgr''' and sister of the Marquis of Norrnanby. SILVERLOCK—HALE -On the Bth inst., at St. 3,131. „ Y j, Church, Lambeth, Mr. Charles Silva' lock, of the St.,-rtp the son of Alderman Sitverlock, of Chichester, to A" f v3 . , Ann, the only daughter of Mr. John Hale, of CIAO * rise. DEATHS. IlAcslinw—On the 16th inst.. at Cornbrook Lodge, n etit Manchester, John liagshaw, Esq., aged 60. WO! , fIANDLEY--On the 16th inst., at Pointon, 0 . Bmjarnin Handley, Esq., formerly of the 9th Le" . aged 74. , • EIENDERSON—On the 16th inst., at Mortlake, the -L' e 'eol• Henderson, D.D., formerly President of HighburY loge, aged ri 3. _ate 0 46 (.ONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO - of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Oiliest 112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in ills CO ns of Middlesex, Wednesday, May 19, 108. A 151 qt loaf li ...... 11 bill