The Sun. — London, England, 1859-07-19 00:00:00

posed. He estimated the revenue of the year at £63,920,000. The estimate which I now present would give us about £420,000 more than that of the right hon. gentleman ; but I am not able to say that there is in that fact any evidence of sterling. or extraordinary progress, because that £420,000 Is about the sum which at present appears to have been pro duced by the two small taxes which were imposed by the right hon. gentleman. We come now, Sir, to the estimate •f the expenditure for the current year, the revenue being, as I have said, £64,340,000 ; the charge of the funded and Unfunded debt for the current year, £28,600,000. In that sum there is included an item of £400,000, which represents the last payment upon a certain portion of the Long An nuities which will have to be made on the sth of January next. I mention this item now because it is entirely ex ceptional in its character. The committee is aware that as a general rule all dividends, whether upon stock or annui ties, are paid half-yearly. In this particular case, how ever, it happens that a certain considerable portion of the Annuities for which the public is liable, and which have their dividends payable half-yearly in April and October, expires not at the end of the half year, but at the eud of the odd quarter, so that a quarter's payment becomes due in re spect of that portion on the sth of January next ; whereas, if the Annuities had continued to run, it would not have been made until the expiration of the half year—viz., the sth of April next. The effect of this is to throw upon the Ways and Means of the year 1850-60 a sum of, in round numbers, £400,000, which in the regular course of things would have passed to the debit of 1860-61. The first re sult of the cessation of these Annuities is to impose a bur den upon the financial year which is now passing. How ever, the charge for the funded and unfunded debt is £28,600,000; that for the Consolidated Fund, £1,960,000; the army, including the m,litia, £13,300,000 ; the navy, in cluding the packet service, £12,782,000 ; the civil service, what are called the miscellaneous estimates, £7,825,000 ; the revenue departments, £474,000. The committee will observe that there is a very considerable increase in the aggregate charge of the miscellaneous estimates as compared with those of last year—(hear, hear)—the estimate for the present year being as I have stated £7,825,000, and that for last year not having exceeded £7,169,000. I may, perhaps, without attempting to enter into detail, state briefly to the committee what are the principal items of this increase. The committee will recollect that a measure passed this house about two years ago which imposed upon the public a very heavy charge in respect of the County Courts. From that source we have an increase in the civil service estimates of £49,000 ; the constabulary in Ireland shows an increase of £36,000 ; the vote for public education, including art, an increase of about £200,000; the vote for British Columbia, 142,000; that for China, Japan, and Siam, which is a new acquaintance, and hUs not appeared upon the estimates be fore, £25,000; the vote for the Foreign-office site and buildings, £200,000, 'including, however, the £130,000, which I have just spoken of as repayable from the Indian revenues. Last comes the submarine cable to Gibraltar, £115,000 ; and perhaps this is the place at which I ought briefly to refer to that subject. The late Government had entertained a plan for both manufacturing and laying down this cable from England to Gibraltar during the present season. The cost of these operations would, it was estimated. be about £250,000, and when her Majesty's Government came into office a contract had actually been entered into for the manufacture of what I believe is called the core of the cable at an expense of about £115,000. Upon a conside ration of the whole matter—which vat be more conveni ently discussed in detail upon the vole—and taking into consideration as a main element the advanced season of the year, and the extremely short period during which tolerably fine weather could be reckoned upon, we thought it would be wiser not to prosecute the plan for laying this cable dur ing the present season, and, consequently, a smaller sum is asked from the house than would otherwise have been re quired. The sum which will be asked for is simply the price of the cable manufactured under contract, which con tract we found in course of execution at the time we entered upon the exercise of office. The total of these items of increase upon the miscellaneous estimates which I have stated to the house is £667,000. There are some items of decrease by which that is partially balanced, and I be lieve that the net increase in the amount of the miscel laneous estimates of this year, as compared with those of last, is somewhere between £580,000 and £599,000. Now, if the committee will take the trouble to add together the figures which I have given them, they will find that whereas the revenue ef the year as it is estimated amounts to £64,340,000, the estimated expenditure will amount to £69,207,000. Subtract the smaller from the larger of these sums, the result is a gross deficiency of £4,867,000, and that is the charge the mode of making provision for which will have to be considered by the committee. Before Igo into any particulars with respect to the mode of meeting that charge I should wish briefly to draw the attention of the committee to one or two general considerations which ap pear to bear upon our present position, and to give it a somewhat peculiar character. I think, sir, that it is plain that while this is a time at which it will become the com mittee to make an adequate and effective provision by those means which they shall think most in accordance with the public interests for the wants of the year, it is likewise a time at which the attention of the committee should be rigidly confined to the wants of the year. The first reason for that is that no one can review; the estimates which I have laid before the committee without observing that they bear in no inconsiderable degree an exceptional charac ter. The circumstances out of which they have grown are fully in the notice and in the knowledge of the com mittee ; but, without entering into detail upon those cir cumstances, I may in general terms say that they are ob viously such—l speak especially of the state of affairs abroad —that if within the next six or twelve months they do not grow worse we may then entertain a confident expectation that they must grow better. (Hear, and a laugh.) The estimates which have been submitted to you bear—l do not conceal the fact—they bear what may so far be called an ambiguous character, that while they greatly fall short of the sums that you have been called upon to vote in time of war, they on the other hand considerably exceed any sums which Parliament has been called upon to vote in times of peace and with reference to the maintenance of peace esta blishments. (Hear, hear.) If I take the estimates of the previous year, which were not considered to be low esti mates, as the standard of comparison, I find that they ex hibit the following figures :—ln 1858-59 the sum voted for the army was £12,010,000, and that for the navy £8,890,000. In every case when I speak of the army I include the militia, and when I speak of the navy I include the packet service.. In the current year the estimates voted for the army, instead of £12,010,000, have been £13,299,000; and the estimates voted, and willingly voted by the house for the navy, instead of £8,890,000, have been £12,782,000 ; so that you have an increase of £1,288,000 on the estimates for the army, and of £3,891,000 on those for the navy, making together an augmentation, upon estimates which were themselves high, amounting to no less thhi about £5,180,000. That, as I say, may be thought to constitute an exceptional state of things, from which I draw no other inference than this, that the present time is thus far marked out to us as one at which it is hardly open to us to busy ourselves with extensive prospects or with comprehensive plans ; but that we ought to confine ourselves to the duty of making a sufficient and effective provision for the wants of the year which has actually commenced. (Hear, hear.) There are other circumstances which I think tend to cor roborate that conclusion. Next year has already been marked out by the proceedings of previous Parliaments as a critical one in the history of our finance—as a year when it must be the obvious duty of Parliament, whatever poli tical circumstances may occur, to enter upon a compre hensive review both of the system of taxation, and also of the scale of our expenditure. During the next year the income tax by law will lapse. At the same period, ac.• cording to the understanding arrived at by Parliament, certain war duties on tea and sugar which have been granted for a period of three years from the year 1857 will a lso lapse. The disappearance of these duties would ultimately make a difference in the receipts of the Treasury of about, in round numbers, £8,000,000. On the other hand, next year we have the advantage of a falling off in the annuities, and it will be the duty of Parliament to consider whether they will endeavour to signalise the year of escape from so serious a burden as the constant and per manent payment of £2,000,000 by something done for the benefit of the people, or whether they will simply allow those £2,000,000 to be dragged unnoticed into the general vortex cf expenditure, to be disposed of piecemeal in aug mentation of £lO,OOO on this vote, £30,000 on that, and 1100 ,000 on another. (Hear, hear.) All these considera 11°11a will bring the Committee—as they have already brought the Government—to suppose that the present is not a Y e ar in which we ought to enter on the consideration of What i 8 t erraed prospective finance, but that we ought rather to be contented with temporary, and I might say almost pro visional finance, provided it 'be sound. I might also plead the short period daring which we have held our offices, which has made it impossible for us, each in his own depart ment, to consider in what respecta reduction of expenditure might be possible. We have come into office with a full conviction that the great demands made upon the house for military estimates are demands both justified and required by the circumstances of the country. (Cheers.) In stating therefore •to the: Committee the magnitude of the figures which they involve, it is not my intention to take in respect any degree an a p o l ogetic tone. On the to those demands in contrary, I know well that large as those demands are, they have been voted with freedom and enthusiasm, and that if it had seemed right to the Government, from the informa tion which we possess, to make a still larger d ra i n on the confidence and patriotism of Parliament, it would have been as freely and as warmly met. (Cheers.) But apart entirely from the exigencies ef the public defence and the public ser vice, it remains the duty of the Government to consider what is not only necessary to be done, but likewise to take care that the funds with which they are so generously in trusted are wisely and thriftily expended ; and it is - with reference to that great duty of public economy—aduty which no public exigency can set aside--although unfortunately, certain circumstances of public affairs greatly indispose the minds of men to its dry details—that the mem bers of the Government have, as yet, had no opportunity of considering, each in his own department, in what respects, apart from the honour and safety of the country, it is possible for them to look forward to any alleviation of the public burdens by way of counterpoise to thepresent heavy demands which the necessities of the time have imposed on the public purse.. I must also remind the committee that I have not the . honour to address it, u is usual)" the case, either before he financial year has commenced or shortly after its com mencement. Nearer four months than three have now elapsed since the commencement of your financial year ; and' none of your financial measures, therefore, can be made practically retrospective. Subject to the effect of these gene ral considerations, I come now to ask the committee to reflect by what mode of supply shell we raise the sum which will enable us to meet the heavy demands of the year ? Of course this great question divides itself at . first .into these two branches—shall we attempt to raise the necessary funds by borrowing or by taxes ? The committee will have to consider whether this is an occasion on which it ought to resort to the expedient of a loan. The sum which is re quired is between £4,000,000 and £5,000,000. It is certainly a large sum to demand from the tax-payers at a short no tice. But, on the other hand, it is a sum which has never driven 'a British Parliament to the expedient of augmenting the national debt. (Hear; hear.) I think we are all nearly agreed on. this, that in time of peace nothing but a dire ne cessity should induce us to borrow. (Hear, hear.) What ever doctrine may be theoretically held and propounded by high authorities with respect to the facility with which we bear the burden of a national debt, I do not think that any man standing in my place would wish so to apply that doctrine as to relax the sound manly sentiment which fills the British people with aversion to the principle of bor rowing to meet the ordinary expenditure of the year. (Hear, hear.) There have been cases undoubtedly-but they were exceptional cases—in which we have resorted to borrowing even in time of peace. Two I may quote, but I quote them only that the committee may bear freshly in mind how different were the circumstances from those in which we now stand. In 1835 the Govern ment of Lord Melbourne borrowed £20,000,000 for the pur pose of negro emancipation, but that was a service to mark an epoch in a nation's life—(hear)—and it had no connec tion with the ordinary expenditure of the year. Again, in 1847-8, my right hon. friend the present Secretary for India made a loan of £10,000,000, but it was for the purpose of meeting a frightful visitation in the sister island, and at the time it would have hardly been possible to raise by the taxes of the year the sum for which he was compelled to apply to Parliament. Those two cases are entirely different from this in amount, because one sum was four times, and the other twice, as large as that I have now to ask at your hands. They were different in principle, because while one related to a great and extraordinary visitation of Providence, the other was connected with a permanent social change, the opportunity of which could not again occur. You are now, on the contrary, called on to meet an expenditure which, legitimate and needful as it is, has reference strictly and ex clusively to your own wants—to the wants of the time in which you yourselves are living. (Hear.) It appears to the Government for these reasons, and I hope it will also appear to the committee, that this is not the occasion for a loan. (Hear.) Another matter we are bound to take into view in considering this question is the condition of the country. I must express my firm conviction that there never was a period when the people of England were better satisfied of the justness and necessity of the demands made upon the public purse, and that there never was a time when they were more able or more willing to meet them. (Hear.) I refer it alike to the hearts and understandings both of those who hear me and of those out of doors who will consider our discussions and debates, whetherwe should not shrink from our duty and disgrace the memory of those who have gone before us if we were to hesitate to say that we will provide for the wants of the day in which we live, not in such a manner as will further embarrass our posterity, but out of the resources immediately at our command. (Hear.) There is another reason, too, not altogether agree able, at which I may slightly glance. There will soon be another public borrower in the market with whom I have no desire to compete. My right hon. friend the Secretary of State for India will have to make another application to Parliament in addition to the measures already taken, in order to meet the exigencies of the Indian service ; and if the Committee will allow me I would rather leave the field clear to him, and be dispensed from interfering with his operations. (Hear, hear.) - What I have presumed to say with regard to a loan appears to me equally applicable to the mode of borrowing by instruments at a short date, such as Exchequer bills. If ever there was a time to which this mode of borrowing was inapplicable, it is the present, be cause its effect would be, not to throw the burden on pos terity, but upon the year 1860, which we shall all agree is already charged to its very utmost. If, then, I have suf ficiently got quit of the first alternative of making provision by borrowing for the deficiencies of the present year, and if we seem to be driven by considerations of justice and policy to the other alternative of looking to taxes for the means of meeting our expenditure, we have one other question before us —shall we look to direct taxation or to an augmentation of our indirect taxes ? I propose not to enter into any ela borate or detailed inquiry, because I think a very few minutes will suffice to dispose of this portion of the subject. But, inasmuch as there is nothing irrational in the first idea of resorting to indirect taxes for either the total or the par tial relief of the exigencies of the State, let us calmly advert in a few words to the articles upon which alone it mi g ht perhaps be possible to thi n k ofobtaining rapidly and effec tually some considerable amount of revenue. Those articles which I think would present themselves to any Finance Minister engaged in the disagreeable task of selecting new subjects of taxation would, I think, ordinarily, be malt, spirits, tea, and sugar. I confess it is my own opinion, and it is the opinion, I believe, of all my colleagues, that it would not be desirable to propose any augmentation of the duty upon wait. (A cry of Hear, hear," from an hon. member on the Opposition benches, which occasioned some laughter.) I am glad to have given consolation to at least one anxious and wounded mind (a laugh) ; but we must frankly own, and I own it the more frankly as I was the person who proposed the measure that when we did, under strong necessity, in a time of war, propose a great augmen tation of the malt duty, although we derived from it a large sum of money, yet that sum of money did not altogether answer our expectations. (Hear.) It is not a very elastic revenue. It is a large revenue, but it does not seem sus ceptible of bearing additional burdens. (Hear.) On the whole, therefore, what seems obviously to be the dictate of good sense is that under present circumstances, we should let well alone. Well, then, the next article I mentioned was the article of spirits, and I believe that, judging from what I hear of the accelerated deliverances from bond of spirits in different parts of the united kingdom—(olaugh)— there is a portion of the public who either think themselves or who think that somebody thinks they are, very proper subjects of taxation. (A laugh.) I should be very sorry to give a pledge which was intended to bind future years, be cause the principle upon which the House of Commons has I think, - uniformly proceeded with respect to spirits has been, not that we ought to lower the duties upon them as much as we can consistently with the interests of the re venue, but that we ought to raise the duties upon them as much as we can consistently with the policy and necessity of preventing the growth of a contraband trade. I wish merely to say that we wish that question to be postponed to a future year. The committee will recollect that we have been very bold, and I am thankful to say, upon the whole very successful for a series of years in our operations upon spirits. From the year 1853, when it was my good fortune to take the first step in that movement, down to the year 1858, when the right hon. gentleman put the last hand to the work and completely equalised the spirit duties in the three kingdoms, we have had a number of successive changes which have upon the whole been, I think, emi nently satisfactory in their results ; but I will give the general figures very briefly, so as to enable the com mittee to form their own judgment. In the year 1853, when we began to deal with the spirit duties, the total amount of duties collected upon British spirits—of course I do not in clude either colonial spirits or brandy—was, in England, £3,165,000 ; in Scotland, £1,867,000 ; in Ireland;£l,267,ooo. In 1859 the total amount of these duties collected in Eng land was £4,073,000, being an increase of £907,000. That was upon a uniform duty, and no change, except a very trifling adjustment, had taken place in England; but, at the same time, England had been deriving supplies from Scotland and Ireland in a manner that it would be hardly possible to show upon the face of the account. England showed an increase upon the.face of the kccount. Scotland had risen from £1,867,000 to £2,750,000, showing an in crease of £832,000 ; Ireland from £1,267,000 to £2,364,000/ showing an increase of £1,097,000. The general result has been that from this most legitimate source of taxation we have had an idcrease between 1853 and 1859 as follows : The total in 1853 was £6,301,000, and the total in 1859 was £9,lBB,ooo—(cheers)—or an augmentation of £2,887,000, which I trust we may look on substantially as a real addi tion—without a single moral drawback attending it, but rather the reverse—to the amount of the permanent re venue of the country. After making due allowance for the progress of the population in the three kingdoms, I think we may say that from £1,000,000 to £1,200,000 of that s um has been due to the augmentation of duty imposed by Par liament in successive years upon the kingdoms of Scotland and Ireland. Considering, however, with what difficulty the whole subject of the spirit duty has been attended in Ireland ; considering how recent, how great, and how rapid ha'e been the augmentations of duty in that country, for they have hardly had a single year's rest—Chancellors of the Exchequer from time to time have been so anxious to get back upon them—and considering that at this moment our success has been complete, so that we have no reason to believe that a contraband trade has received any stimu lus ; but, on the other hand, considering how short an experience of a few months is for determining a matter so serious as that—l mean the question whether there is a danger of stimulating the creation of a new contraband trade on a greatly extended scale ; considering these things, we are certainly of opinion that it would bo unwise, and, at all events, premature, to raise at the present moment any question with respect to the general increase of the spirit duty through the three kingdoms. With regard to a par ticular increase to take effectin England, or in England and Scotland and not in Ireland, whatever the yield to the Trea sury might be, it would be decidedly a measure of retrc gression and not of improvement. (Hear, hear.) That is a step which I thi n k t h at we should not, under any circum stances, be dispo se d to take. Therefore malt gives us no hope, and. spirits yield us no means of replenis hing the pub lic tretisury. Now, what are we to say of the more impor tant and more vital article of t ea and sugar 9 I have pre sumed to impress upon the committ ee th e opinion that we are dealing at present not with a prospective and perma nent finance, but with the finance of the moment ; that we are ,marring provision for the year; that we do met wish to tie the hands of Parliament, if we can avoid it, with re.. forence to anything. that they take plate in iiitnre years ; that we wish that Parliament when it meets again after the recess should be in a condition to face as a whole the great and serious question of revenue and expenditure that it will then have to meet. (Hear, hear.) But if these conside rations be just, they form a most powerful argument against meddling at the present moment with the indirect taxes of the country—(cheers)—because you cannot touch one of these indirect taxes, and especially you cannot touch the taxes that are derived from tropical articles, without greatly interfering with the course of trade. (Cheers.) You may tax your malt,you may tax your home-made spirits ; you then interfere with trade ; but you interfere with trade far more if you touch sugar, or if you touch tea that has to be brought from what I may call the extremities of the earth. (Hear.) Ido not speak now of the interests of the consumer. I speak simply at this moment of the interests of trade, and I say it would be contrary to those wise and circumspect rules which govern the proceedings of Parliament in regard to its fiscal legislation if they were to permit themselves to interfere with those great and capital trades of the country for the purpose of supplying what we must call a momentary derangement. (Hear.) But there are other reasons which, I confess, amount for me to a demonstration, and more than a demonstration, upon this subject. I know not whe ther those deliverances within the last few weeks of spirits from bond, in anticipation of what was shortly to take place, of which I spoke, showed confidence or a want of confidence, but at any rate I will proceed to lay as well as I can an argument which appears to be conclusive before the committee. When we deal with a question between direct and indirect taxation, we deal to a certain extent—imper fectly and roughly no doubt the distinction is taken, but still it is in fact and in substance a true distinction —we deal to a certain extent with a question between a rich man and a poor man. (Hear.) Direct taxation falls upon the middle and wealthy classes, but indirect taxation weighs with much more serious pressure upon the poor and labouring man. This was felt by Parliament at the commencement of the Russian war, and in the effort which it made in suc cessive years to meet a large portion of the demands of that war by means of new taxes it carefully observed the main tenance of a due relation between the amounts of direct and indirect taxation. (Hear, hear.) And I think l without going into minute particulars, I may that it was the deter mination of Parliament, as evinced by its acts, that of that portion of the war expenditure which was to be drawn from taxes, the greater part should be taken from direct taxes, and the lesser part from indirect taxes. But now let us see what has happened since the close of the war. The war closed in the month of March, 1856, but the finance of the year 1856-7, although it was a year of peace, was not, and could not be, a finance of peace, because it was a year of transition, and, in fact, a great part of it was consumed. in bringing home armaments from the Crimea. That year, in fact, was a year of war more than a year of peace so far as the expenditure was concerned. But in 1867-8 began a finance of peace, and a reduction to a peace establishment. My right hon. friend the Secretary of State for the Home Depart ment found himself under the necessity, with reference to the demands of that year, of keeping up a portion of war taxation. Had war taxation been entirely removed on the 31st of March, 1857, the duty on sugar of the lowest class would have gone down to 9s. 6d. per cwt., the duty on tea would have gone down to ls. per lb., and the tax on incomes would have gone down to sd. in the pound. My right hon. friend, finding the necessity of a partial reten tion of 'war taxation in order to meet the scale of expendi ture which had been, or was to be sanctioned, maintained that portion of taxation distributed between its two main heads. He requested Parliament to continue a modified part of the extra duties on tea and sugar ; but he likewise retained 2d. in the pound on incomes, which would have dropped if the act of 1853 had been suffered to take its full effect. My right hon. friend obtained from Parliament the continuance of those extra tea and sugar duties from April, 1857, to March, 1860, of a period of about three years, and the result has been as follows :—We have kept at a certain porton of war income tax, that is to say the imposition of 2d. in the pound which would have lapsed under the act of 1853, and which yielded two millions of money. But that we kept up for one year only, from April, 1857, to March, 1858. (Hear, hear.) In the financial year 1858-59 the in come tax went down to the limit whtch was provided for in the act of 1853, but the tea and sugar duties continued at the limit at which they were fixed for a period of three years by the act of 1857. The result is shortly this—if we look at the three years 1857-60, during those three years we shall have raised, of what must be regarded as tempo rary war taxation, two millions only from direct taxation in the shape of income tax, and three millions a year from tea and sugar, or nine millions of indirect taxation. (Hear, hear.) If that be a true state of the account, and I believe it cannot be impeached, then, I say, what ever may have been the anticipations of the pub lic out of doors, whatever the patience of the traders or of the consumers, it would, in the view of the Government, be a positive breach of duty, and an act of gross injustice towards the consumers, if at this moment we were to ask you to add one single shilling to the imposition of indirect taxation. (Cheers.) But if it be not slaying the slain to pursue this question further, I would likewise re mind the committee of the position in which we stand for raising money at this moment by customs and excise duties. Customs and excise duties are very convenient in one point of view, viz., that you begin to get the duty the night you make.the financial statement, and if you make the financial statement just after the close of the financial year you get 12 months' duty for 12 months' taxes. But what is our case now ? We might resort to the odious course of laying on 3d., 4d., or sd. a pound on tea, and 35., 45., or ss. per cwt. on sugar, but we should not get 12 months' duty. Three and a half months are irrecoverably gone and counted with the past. One and a half months more have already been forestalled by payments in anticipation. (Hear.) .At this moment the Exchequer of the country is richer than it ought to be by upwards of a million of money in duties on tea and sugar, which have beenpaid in advance, earlier than they would have been paid in the natural and ordinary course of trade, by parties who supposed that it might be the possible pleasure of Parliament to enact an increase of those duties. That being so, we arrive at a point which can be easily anticipated. (Laughter.) The divining faculty of an intelligent audience altogether outruns either the power or necessity of a detailed statement. It remains to consider what we shall do with the income-tax. The income-tax, as I conceive, was introduced into ourfiscal legislation for two great purposes and at two different periods. The one was to effect permanent and salutary reforms in our commercial and fiscal system, and the other was to meet in the manner the most efficacious sudden public exigencies. I wish it had been my fate to ask the committee to vote an augmentation of the income tax for the former rather than for the latter of these circumstances. I trust that the day may yet come when, if the income tax is to be continued, Parliament will recollect that it derived no small sort of passport as a peace tax to the public favour or public endurance for this, that it was associated, as it has been, with other changes of the law productive of the widest and most permanent social benefits. (Cheers.) This other purpose, of meeting great public exigencies and extraordinary demands on the public purse—that is, demands extraordinary in amount yet strictly referable to current wants—althoughit be not one so pleasant to entertain, yet it is one equally legitimate, and I put it broadly, that in a case like this, * where. for the dignity, honour, and safety of the country, we are called upon to make great and rapid efforts in the augmentation and ex tension of our defences, the income tax is beyond all others the regular and legitimate resource to which to resort. (Cheers.) Ide not know whether the committee would like me to lay before them any facts with regard to the con dition of the income-tax, and the expectation the country has entertained that it might he found practicable at a period now approaching to part with it. (Hear.) Ido not speak of the augmentation which I am about to propose, but I speak of the income-tax with reference to its acquiring a place of permiTience in finance. In the year 1853 there was an expectation that the revenue of this country would so thrive under the system which had been in operation that we should - be able to dispense in seven years with the aid of the income-tax as an ordinary tax for the purpose of na tional income ; and, so far as depends upon the revenue of the country, and the simple consideration of the revenue, hat expectation has been entirely fulfilled. If I go to the expenditure of the country as it was in 1853, and if I compare that expenditure with the present revenue, there is not an expectation which was held out in 1853 (I do not speak of details, but I speak of general results) which has not been more than satisfied and fulfilled. (Cheers.) In 1853 the revenue was £59,024,000, and the expenditure £55,769,000. In the year 1859-60—taking, of course, the estimated revenue—the revenue is £64,340,000, showing a growth of £5,316,000 in revenue, which is a sum as large as an in. come-tax of sd. in the pound. (Hear.) But that is not all. We must balance our revenue with expenditure. The ex penditure in 1853 was £55,769,000. The estimated expen diture of 1859-60 is £69,207,000 ; so that while our revenue has been growing £5,316,000, our expenditure has grown £13,438,000, and that is a very simple, transparent, and conclusive explanation of the difficulties with regard to parting with the income-tax. (Hear, hear.) When I say that the revenue has increased to the extent of £5,316,000, I would remind the committee that that is entirely inde pendent of the advantage next year from the falling in of £2,246,000 Long Annuities, which indeed increases the re venue up to £7,000,000, being enough, as I can show if we go into details, to enable us to part both with the income tax of sd. in the pound, and likewise with the war duties on tea and sugar if only our expenditure had not increased. That is the simple case, which at a future time, if' it is thought right, I will display in more detail ; but I pledge myself that, taking the revenue as it stands and is estimated to be, there would not have been the slightest difficulty in dispensing both the income-tax and the remaining war taxes on tea and sugar, if it had not been that the exigencies of the public service, as stated from time to time, have created new calls, which of course mast be met by resorting to cor responding taxation. '(Hear.) £4,867,000 was the sum which I ventured to state to the committee as the gross de ficiency which we shall have to meet. But there is a ques tion which I am about briefly to open, and a source from which (without exposing ourselves to any objection which applies to borrowing, and without inconveniently interfer ing with the course of trade or private interest) we may yet draw a limited sum in alleviation of the public burdens. It is a source not altogether new to this house, because it has been mentioned from time to tune by Chancellors of the Exchequer, and it has always been felt that the THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, J ITLY 19, 1859. time *mild tome When some proposal on the subject Would he Made. f refer to What is called the system of malt credits. It is known to a large portion of the committee that there is a peculiarity in the col lection of the malt and hop duties. I will not toueh upon the latter, because the case is peculiar and the amount small; I will deal exclusively with the duties on malt, and speaking roughly there is a credit of nearly six months which is given to the maltster by the public, the effect of which is that he makes his malt, disposes of his malt, and is paid for his malt in general, or at least if he is not, it is his own fault, before he is called on to pay the duty, or, in other words, to a considerable extent the public find capital for the maltsters. , (Hear, hear.) This, with the slight exception of the hop duties, is an exceptional privilege. The distiller of spirits, directly after the spirits are gauged and the gauging officer has completed his round, is called upon to pay the duty, and pays it as soon as the charge is made upon him. A delay of five or six weeks is all that takes place in the payments of the distillers of spirits and the makers of paper. The Government give them no credit, but they require them to pay the duty to the revenue officer when he presents his account. In the case of the malt distiller there is a clear term of 18 weeks, which, added to the other six weeks, makes a delay of nearly six months. In former times it was felt that these questions had an importance in rela tion to the system of protection and the dependence of the agriculturist upon the prices that barley fetched in the market. It was thought, and with some colour of reason, that this system of supplying capital to the man who buys barley from the farmer had a tendency to augment the price of barley to the purchasers. It certainly did tend to break up the malt trade, and to bring many competitors into the market. But we have, I hope, long out-lived the day when any consideration of that kind, arising out of artificial interests, either could, would, or ought to be entertained. (Hear, hear.) The system of finding capital for traders on the part of the public is in principle a bad system, and being bad it has also this second bad feature, that it is an exceptional system, being a privilege granted to some and not to others. Therefore the Government are of opinion that the time has come when this system may be safely modified—(hear, hear)—l don't say abolished altogether, because a sudden abolition of such a system would derange the trade, and run the risk of hampering the operations of private parties, whose resources might not be large, and that would be extremely objection able. My proposal is, therefore, to deal with the malt credits, but to deal with them in the mildest manner. (A laugh.) Of the 18 weeks we propose to take away six, leaving 12. I don' tsay that there might not be a further measure in the same direction at a future time, and after matters have been adjusted to the present change; but this I do say, that I am most unwilling to give grounds for complaint, and in proposing to abridge these sixweeks from the creditgiven in the case of malt we also propose that you should incur the very small expense of allowing the maltster a discount at the rate of 4 per cent. on the payments to which he would be liable under the proposed system, so that the shortening his credit would be a matter limited in extent, and as far as possible reduced to the condition of a banking transaction. Of course in future years there would be no operation of discount, and the credit would stand reduced to whatever ,Parliament might determine. I will net trouble the com mittee with the intricacies of the arrangements under which the malt duties are collected, and under which the year is divided into certain periods, the malt is gauged, and the duty charged and collected from the maltster. But the effect of reducing six weeks from the credit allowed to the maltster will be to bring into the Exchequer—and not only that, but to bring into the Exchequer before the Ist of April next—the sum of £780,000, which would otherwise not find its way there before the following financial year. In point of fact, the public have £2,500,000 oat on loan to the malt ster, of which I propose to take up, by a resolution I shall submit, a sum something short of £BOO,OOO. Well, that is a deduction, as far as it goes, from the rather formidable figure of the deficiency that we have to supply. That de ficiency, it will be recollected, I stated at £4,867,000, and the deduction of £780,000, will make it stand at some ' thing over £1,000,000. That sum we propose to raise by the augmentation of the income-tax. (Cheers.) The present rate of the income-tax is sd. in the pound. We propose an addition of 4d. in the pound. (Murmurs, and " Hear.") An addittion of 4d. in the :pound would yield something over £4,000,000 of money. In making an addition of that kind it will be necessary of course to re-introduce the dis tinction between incomes above £l5O and incomes under £150; because that distinction was originally introduced when the rate was 7d., and was allowed to drop when it fell to sd. ; but whets it goes above 7d. there cannot be a doubt that the distinction must be re-introduced. I think it will also be the feeling and disposition of the committee that any additional rate laid on incomes between £lOO and £l5O should be rather lightly laid in reference to sudden calls of this kind, so as to give what I may call the turn in their favour. (Hear.) Therefore, what I propose is that the 4d. laid upon the general mass of the income-tax payers should stop at incomes of £l5O, and that in lieu of 4d. in the pound paid by incomes above £l5O the rate of 13d. in the pound should be laid upon incomes under £l5O. But I must frankly admit that my proposal is that the whole of this addition to the income-tax, which is voted fsr the service of the year, shall be made applicable to the service of the year by being charged on the first half-yearly payment. (" Oh.") 'lt is, I take it, the clear sense of the committee that on thts occasion we ought to pay our way. (Hear, hear.) It is also the clear sense of the committee that we ought to pay our way without resorting to indirect taxation. (Cheers.) Having done what I am able towards a limited reductioa of the deficiency, I still find £4,000,000 of money staring me in the face. And if lam to have that money for the service of the year, it must be in the exchequer before the Ist of April, nor can it be by any means that I am aware of in the exchequer before the Ist of April unless it is made leviable in one single payment, on the first assessment or charge, after the resolution shall be adopted by the house. (Murmurs and interruption.) I wish to explain to the com mittee, if they will hear me, exactly how the payments will stand. I wish to show the committee what it is the tax gatherer will ask for, the next time he shows what I sup pose we must call his ill-omened visage at the taxpayer's door. The effect of my proposal is to place an addition of 11d. in the pound upon all incomes under £l5O, and upon all above £l5O an addition of 61d., or at the rate annually of 13d. on incomes above £150., But the first half yearly payment of the taxpayers whose income is under £l5O a year will be 4d. in the pound. The remaining liability for income-tax for 1859-60 will stand exactly as it does now, at 21d. for both classes. So that the first half-yearly payment would be 61d. on incomes above £l5O, and 4d. on incomes under £l5O, or at the rate of 13d. in the year on incomes ove(£lso, and Bd. on incomes under £l5O. The result would be that the tax would yield £4,340,000. Adding that to the sum of £780,000 which the malt credits will bring in, the total will be £5,120,000. Now, the deficit, as I have already stated to the committee, is £4,867,000, and deduct ing that sum from the ways and means which have thus become available, there remains a surplus of £253,000. It will naturally be observed that this surplus is very small, but I should wish to say a word to the committee on that point. I have already pointed out to the committee that there is a charge of £400,000 which we must be prepared to meet in January, which legally falls to the charge of this year, but falls to it by an accident, and which really belongs in the ordinary arrangement of our finances not to this but the following year. That being so, Ido not consider that 1 am bound to raise taxes for such a sum as that. The whole question is whether it is a sum that can be conveniently met out of the public balances, and if the committee will permit me I will just state how the public balances have stood lately, how they now stand, and what they are likely to be at the close of the financial year. (Hear.) On June 30,1859, the balances for the financial fear were £5,016,000. But on April 1, 18b9, at the commencement of the financial year, they stood at £7,789,000. In the course of the year it is calculated that there will be' an addition to the balances from a probable excess of repayments over outgoings for public works, a sum of £500,000. The surplus revenue is estimated at £253,000, making altogether £8,542,000. From that you will have to deduct £2,000,000 Ex chequer bonds paid off on the Bth of May, in conse quence of the dissolution of Parliament and there being no opportunity to consider whether any provision ought to be made for them. Deducting these £2,000,000 the pro bable balances on the Ist of April, 1860, will be £6,542,000. That is an ample amount, and more than is absolutely ne cessary for the coming year, because the subsequent quarter will be relieved in respect to this payment to no less an ex • tent than £1,000,000 in consequence of the lapse of a large portion of annuities. That, I think, is the statement which I have to make to the committee. I shall not, of course, ask the committee to come to any material vote to-night. It will be for the committee to consider when they will like to resume the discussion of the subject. If I anticipate their wishes rightly, I would desire to choose a very early day—(hear)—in reference to the state of the weather, of the session, and some other considerations that are better to be reflected on than named. (Laughter.) I shall only pro pose to-night a formal vote of Ways and Mean's, and I shall lay on the table the resolutions having reference to the Income-tax and the malt credits. Now let me add another word before I sit down. I know I have made a great de mand on the generosity and patriotism of this committee; but don't be repelled from considering that demand by the fact, which we all know, that it is disagreeable to us indi vidually, and does not tend to promote our popularity as a Parliament, to augment the burdens of the people. Look at the charge which is incurred, and the estimates you have voted. (Hear; hear.) Consider, if I may be /permitted to make the appeal, that neither the honour nor responsibility of these estimates are mainly ours. Our duty has mainly been to take over the estimates framed for us by our prede cessors, but yet we have taken them over not in the mere discharge of formal official duty, but with a ready warmth and a conscientious assent. (Hear.) But there stand the es timates. There is the charge you.have placed on the public Treasury. How will you meet it ? Do not allow yourselves to bo swayed by considerations of what might be merely agreeable. Ask yourselves whether you have reallyperformed your duty by simply fixing the expenditure of the year, as has been done in the main and is likely to be entirely done so, at a sum of £69,000,000. There is another duty not less transparently clear —namely, that you should make adequate provision to meet that charge ; and, instead of ascribing to the great English people a childish impatience to meet necessary demands, with which they were never chargeable, I, on the contrary; shall rely on their unyield ing, inexhaustible energy, and generous patriotism, and shall be confident that they will never shrink from or refuse the htirden required in order to sustain the honour and provide for the security of the country. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman concluded by proposing a formal vote to the effect that £7,000,000 be granted to her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund for the public service. The resolution was agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he should lay the other resolutions on the table, and he pro posed that the subject should be resumed on Thursday. Sir H. WILLO fiGHBY inquired whether the account of expenditure—viz., £64,663,000, for 1858-59, was the cash account, which was rather fallacious, or a bona fide real account ?, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted that there was a difference between the account presented immediately on the close of the financial year and the ac count as it finally stood. That was inevitable with respect to a vast expenditure which went all over the world, and could not on the last day of the year be made up so per fectly as it was eventually. Still, every possible effort was made to make it up as clearly as possible. Mr. HENLEY complained that, according to the right hon. gentleman's statement, those who received dividends would have to pay double the amount of income-tax. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that that was not so. The right hon. gentleman must have misunderstood him. The mistake arose from this, that, whereas income-tax generally was assessed for a year, dividends were only for a half year. Mr. MALINS said that after the speeches he had heard from the right hon. gentleman, and the promises he bad made that the income-tax should cease in 1860, he (Mr. Malins) was greatly disappointed at the proposal which he had now made of turning back to this hateful tax, doub ling it not only for the future but for the time past, throw ing upon the public double payment of that tax in October next. (Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) He thought at such a proposal the people of this country would be greatly disappointed. Mr. STE WART hoped, when this question came to be discussed, the noble viscount at the head of the Government would adhere to his expressed opinions, and not go into the same lobby with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He (Mr. Stewart) had not changed the opinions he formerly enter tained as to the immoral character of this tax. He thought the right hon. gentleman should have informed the house as to whether it was his intention to extend the legacy duties to real property. It appeared that bonds on mort gages on land were exempt from the legacy duties in Scot land. That was not just to the rest of the country, and he trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would look in that direction for some contributions towards the revenue. Mr. BAXTER expressed his approval of the financial statement. The fire insurance duty was one of the most in defensible taxes which the people of this country had to bear. It was 200 per cent. on the premium, the duty being 35., and the premium ls. 6d. per cent. It was a tax proposed in 1815, at the close of the French war, when the resources of the country were stretched to the utmost possible limit, and when the Government of the day grasped at every possible source of income. (Hear.) It was a tax which discouraged habits of forethought and of prudence, and which led to the• business of insurance being transacted by foreign companies on the Continent instead of being transacted here ; and this could not be prevented ; for although the attempt had been made, it only resulted in closing some half-a-dozen agencies. It was the same with marine insurance when the duties were high. But when that evil was amended, the business returned to its natural channels. He thought it was an act of injustice to exempt farm produce, and thus to favour the farmers at the expense of the rest of the community. He did not ask the Chancellor of the Ex chequer to do anything in this budget, but he hoped that the question would be fairly considered, and that on the next occasion it would at least be reduced to something like ls. (Hear.) He was perfectly satisfied that such a reduction would not in the end be injurious to her Majesty's Treasury. Mr. HORSMAN thought there had been some contra diction in the speech of the right hon. gentleman, as to whether this was really a peace expenditure or not. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had admitted that they might have a war expenditure in the time of peace ; and he would ask, whether such was not the case at the present moment? (Hear.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer had told. them, that the increased expenditure was for the purpose of strengthening our defences ; and the question arose whether they were being strengthened in a proper manner—whether it was the best plan to make these augmentations by in stalments, spread over a long series of year ? The fact was, that ur der the present system the increased security was almost imperceptible, while the increased taxation was alto gether ruinous. For instance, for the Dover fortifications the estimate was £BOO,OOO, at any rate considerably over half a million, while the vote for the present year was about £200,000. (Hear.) What was feared was an attack from our ally across the Channel. But did they suppose that that ally would wait for 10 or 15. years till we had com pleted our fortifications? (Hear.) Was that the way in which he went about his business ? (Hear.) No. Our ally took his money at once-when he went to war ; and, in a couple of years did more to increase his power and to consolidate his security, than we should accomplish by our present sytem in twenty. (Hear, hear.) Now either there was no danger, in which case they were doing too much ; or there really was danger, in which case they were doing too little. (Cheers.) If we had war with France, it would come suddenly, and in such a case, at the outset, people seemed to admit that we should be liable to some great disaster. Everybody admitted that we should be imperfectly defended at first, and that it would require £10,000,000 to put us in a proper position. To have this spread over 20 or 30 years, in the present state of Europe, is simply an absurdity, and if we had it at once, of course, it could not come out of the taxation of the year. (Hear.) We were in this position, therefore—we had a budget which was neither a peace budget nor a war budget. It was a case of urgency, and never was there a time when a large im mediate expenditure would be productive of so much good. He was anxious to support the right hon. gentleman's pro posal ; but so far as he could do it without appearing to place himself in antagonism to the right hon..entleman, he should certainly like to take the sense of the house on the -4 - inection no-to whothor or not an oxponditairo which ion-war expenditure is one which we ought to attempt to go on year after year defraying out of the ordinary income of the country ? (Hear, hear.) He did not suppose the Govern ment would listen to such a question, but he should like to place his opinion upon record (Hear, hear.) In case of a crisis the blame would not fall on those who wer.t ready to give, but on those who had only to ask and receive, but who neglected to provide for a calamity so clearly foreseen. (Hear, hear. Mr. J. E WART as representing a mercantile constituency said nothing was so injurious to the interests of trade as to be constantly tampering with the duties on the great neces saries of life. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would look more to direct than to indirect taxation. _ Mr. SALOMON said they had to meet an expenditure which was neither of peace nor of war, but which was forced upon the Government by the people of this country. It was not desirable that we should imitate the nations of the Continent, and go into the market to borrow whenever any extraordinary expenditure had to be incurred. It was a: peculiar feature of this country that we looked our dii&• culties in the face, and showed that the resources of the country were such that when there was an extraordinary expenditure to be met we resorted to ordinary tax ation with confidence and success. He concluded by say ing that he did not think it possible that the Chancellor of the Exchequer could have brought forward a budget more clear, more straightforward, or more popular. (Hear.) Except, perhaps, with regard to the fourpence. (Hear, and laughter.) _ _ . SLWYN said he should wish to see the inequali• ties of the income-tax reduced, but the necessities of the right hon. gentleman were so great that ht presumed that it was impossible at present. He would suggest to the right hon. gentleman, however, that the Probate Act was sus ceptible of improvement by a simple piece of legislation. At present, a man who died worth more than a million sterling, was taxe'i only on the first million. The restric tion, he submitted, ought to be abolished. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had now only to thank the committee for the generous spirit in which the proposals had been received. Nothing could be more gratifying to his own feelings personally, in the position in which he had the honour to occupy, and for his part, he was sure he should be most happy to meet, as far as he could, a wish expressed by any number of gentle men in that house. He would observe, however, that he hoped hon. gentleman would show a great deal of caution before they committed themselves to the principle of the income-tax being levied in quarterly payments. The ques tion came simply to this, whether this money, which was intended for the service of the year, was to be raised within the year, or not? With regard to the observation of the horn gentleman the member for Derby, that he would agree with him, that it would be folly to notice the differences to which he alluded, regard being had to the com p arativel y unimportant character of the subject. Theright hon. gen tleman the member for Stroud entered upon a question of some importance, which • could not, however, be properly discussed at that time. He agreed with him that it was a bad system to distribute charges for permanent works over many years, and it was with a view of getting the new building on as fast as possible, that the hon. member for Devonport made the first esti mates for the palace very large. With regard to the subject of bonded warehouses, it was in itself so extensive, that it might be said to have a literature of its own. He could only say that he had always thought it desirable, wherever it could be done with safety to the public interests, that ex tended facilities should be given in connexion with them. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the tariff and fire assurance, he should very much like to make the desired alterations, and he knew that all our commercial reforms, numerous and satisfactory as they had been of late years, would not be complete until these and other serious blots were re moved from the statute book. A margin, however, was wanted for those great purposes. The hon. member for London had urged him on the subject of the tariff, On three former occasions he had shown how desirous he was of bringing it into a state more conformable to the require ments of the day, and he could assure the hon. member that he wanted no spurring on that point. The hon. mem ber for Stamford had observed in reference to the tea and sne;ar duties, that they expired on the let of April next. He (Mr. Gladstone) was doubtful whether it would not be more satisfactory to the mercantile world to introduce a bill on the subject now, in anticipation of the event. It was a legal expiration, and he should like to know the views and feelings, with reference to the subject, of those who were most conversant with, and interested in it, in order that all disturbance might be avoided. He had now only to move that the chairman report progress. --- - Mr. ROEBUCK said he wished to say a few words with a view to obtain a prospect of some relief for the labouring classes. He agreed with the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer ix what he had said as to the unjust pressure of indirect taxation on the poor. But the right hon. gentleman said nothing of the unjust pressure of the income tax cn persons of small means. It was to the working classes that he himself belonged, as a profes sional man, and for them he would speak. He would take the case of a man who had £l,OOO a-year from land, and of another who had £l,OOO a-year from his own pro fessional exertions. He would suppose the two men to be 40 years of age, and they were taxed alike. At the age of 42, however, the professional man was struckwith paralysis. and there was an end at once of his Income. How unjust, therefore, that they should be taxed equally. He (Mr. Roebuck) said that the professional man was unjustly taxed. The right hon. gentleman had an objection to in direct taxation, because it fell heavily on the poor working man; yet here was a clearly proved case of injustice to the poor man, whose income depended on the precarious tenure of his brains, for whom the right hon. gentleman coald ex press no sympathy. The reason was, that their numbers were few, and hence their case commanded no attention and received no redress ; but he would tell the right hon. gentleman that so long as that injustice remained uncor rected. so long would the class for whom he spoke continue to look upon the right hon. gentleman as a coward, who was afraid to de•thera justice. The house then resumed, and the chairman reported pro gress and obtained leave to sit again. sUI FLY. Mr. YtASSEY brought up the report of the committee of supply of Friday last, when a large number of votes were immediately agreed to. On the vote of £23,000 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of Works, Mr. AUGUSTUS SMITH said he hoped that on this occasion the hon. gentleman would have done something to remove the anomalous condition in which this depart ment was placed, of being the only one which had the power of engaging in a large expenditure without the control and authority of Parliament. A revenue of some thing like £400,000, and the estimates authorised indepen dently of Parliament amounted to £90,000. It appeared to him that there :could be no reason why they should not give an estimate for such expenditure as well as for the current expenses of the office. lie suggested to the house that the vote should not be confirmed until they had laid before them an estimate of the expenditure. Mr. WILSON showed that the vote before the house was merely for the salaries of the clerks and others con nected with the Woods and Forests, and not for the ma nagement of the Crown property. The subject suggested had been already fully considered. With regard to the ex penditure, though it was not subject to the surveillance of Parliament in the shape of a vote, it was subject to surveil lance by reason of the annual balance-sheet which the com missioners presented each session, such balance-sheets showing every item of expenditure. The vote was then agreed to, as were the remaining votes. SUPPLY.—THE LONDON CORPORATION BILL. On the motion for going into Committee of Supply. Mr. AYRTON wished to ask the noble lord at the head of the Government a question with respect to the London Corporation Reform Bill, as it was called, which was very greatly objected to by many supporters of the present Go vernment. When the late Government quitted office, they left in some of the departments certain draft bills, which, happily, were not allowed to arrive quite at maturity ; but the right hon. gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, with a zeal more like that of the Zouave, influenced with the spirit of political plunder, appropriated some of those bills to himself, and submitted them to the house. Now, let it be understood that those bills were pre pared by her Majesty's late Government, but the noble viscount voted want of confidence in that Oovernment, and having no confidence in them, and not approving of their measures, it certainly was not right that any member of his Administration should press those bills on the attention of the Legislature. (Hear.) It was with astonishment that he saw the draft bills of the Government thus appropriated, and, without consideration of the principles on which the present Government placed them on the table of the house. Lord PALMERSTON said that the hon. member, when the bill came on for discussion, could state his reasons for objecting to it, but he thought it most unreasonable and un fair that he should object .to the next stage of the measure being discussed either at a night or special morning sitting. He thought it was a new objection to a Government that it was ready to give time to the discussion of a bill. If the hon. and learned gentlemen could not attend on the day named, he had no doubt that his right hon. friend the Home Secretary would consult his convenience, and that of other hon. members, if possible. While he was on his legs, he would remark, with respect to the somewhat unjust and unreasonable objections urged by the hon. member for Lambeth, that it was him who pressed the voting of the civil service estimates the other night. The matter was left in the hands of the house—the hon. gentleman pressed his motion to a division, and was in a small minority, whereupon, not in a very good temper, he left the house, and not in the most courteous way. If the decision had been the other way, he (Lord Palmerston) should have sub mitted to it, but, as it was, the house took its own way with the estimates. _ _ _ The conversation then dropped. SUPPLY. The house then went into committee, Mr. MASSEY in the chair. The first vote proposed was for the charges in connexion with the public parks, but the new chairman of committees speaks in so low a tone of voice, and runs over figures so rapidly that it is next to impossible in nine cases out of ten to form the slightest idea either of the amount or the pur pose for which it is asked. Sir J. PAXTON objected to the large and in his opinion uncalled for,increase in the estimates for the maintenance of the public parks. In seven years the amount had doubled itself, or from £63,000 to £123,000. Kew Gardens instead of being kept to their original purpose of a botani cal garden and museum, had been converted by Lord Llanover and Sir W. Hooker into a gaudy flower garden, with pleasure grounds of almost indefinite extent, at the cost of the public, while the Crystal Palace gardens had been specially formed for that purpose on commercial grounds. He did not see why Kew should compete with the Crystal Palace at the expense of the country, and at the same time be open on Sunday, while the Crystal Palace was shut to the public. (Hear, hear.) He objected also to the new museum, which had been erected, as a paltry building, like a third-rate lodging-house, quite unworthy of such a beautiful place ; and there was an item for a conservatory which was preposterously large, when they knew that he had shown 10 acres of ground could be covered with glass for £lO,OOO, while they had not altogether three acres of ground at Kew. With respect to Hyde-park, Lord Llanover had also made a mistake in what he called " gardenising" it at an immense cost. It was a total mistake to 'vulgarise parks with gaudy and tawdry flower beds. They ought to depend entirely for their effect upon the beautiful green grass, and fine trees, like Berkeley-square, which was the pattern for all such people's parks and places. He had watched all that had been said as to the opening into St. James's-park. He should be glad to see Kensing ton-gardens made as beautiful as they could be, and Hyde park made as a . park ought to be. As regarded Battersea park and Victoria. park, he could say that these parks were, in the first instance, under the control of men who did not know the names of six flowers. (A laugh.) He was aware that every minister of public works was regularly beset by the metropolitan members for every kind of boon. Although he would not at present propose any reduction in the vote, he would next year go into the matter into detail. In the meantime he would be happy to give any advice ho was capable of giving. (Hear.) Lord J. MANNERS referred to the suggestions which - had been made for improving thaSerpentine river, and said, with reference to what had taken place at Kew, his hon. friend had recommended conservatories there which he (Lord J. Manners) approved of. With respect to Battersea and Victoria-parks, the two gentlemen appointed there were quite competent to perform their duties. He was stifisfied that every gentleman filling the office which he had lately had the honour of filling was most anxious to contribute to the comfort and the enjoyment of the great mass of society. Mr. W. WILLIAMS said it was quite monstrous to see the sums of money which were annually expended on the parks of the metropolis. There was an increase in the charge this year of £24,000. What made the Serpentine offensive this year was, that sewers were allowed to run into it. Mr. FITZROY said the object of the vote was to pro vide for the recreation of the public. He had received a return yvhich showed the enormous number of persons who found enjoyment in frequenting Victoria-park, and great praise was due to the superintendents of both Victoria and Hyde-parks, for the way in which they devoted th eir energies to the duties of their office. It was impossible to meet the views of everybody, and if the suggestions thrown out were attended to, in the course of a few months the beauty of the parks would be destroyed. As to the purification of the Serpentine, he found the plan already prepared when he came into office, and an estimate of £15,000 to carry on the works. He did not agree with the plan proposed, and he should li t a h a e a r a e ui fo_ t r e e c r ost pone its consideration for a future period. . fi P r a a g t e i n o a n ta t n h a e a s b u e la j a e a c r t 4e and d off, fo u aa n d d t t h h e a n t t h the 7 31 i a l t d e r b a m u d i s ffi t a n u t he to get it back again. Under these circumstances he postponed the consideration of it until he had a plan prepared. With respect to Regent's-park, a new cricket ground would be formed as soon as possible, and everything done to suit the public convenience. Mr. KINNAIRD thought his right hon. friend had not answered the question of his hon. friend the member for Kildare. Why should members of Parliament he deprived of the opportunity of coming through the Park to this house ? Two policemen were stationed opposite Buckingham Palace to prevent that, and he should like to have an ex planation on the subject. With respect to the glass works at Kew-gardens, he thought it could be done for £lO,OOO, instead of £20,000, and he should certainly take the sense of the committee on the subject. His hon. friend the member for Coventry called the attention of the committee to the fact that 40,000 geraniums were cultured in those gardens, but that expense could not be permitted, when it was in tended that nothing but foreign and rare plants should be introduced. Then there was a vote of £39,000 submitted to them for the advantage of bathers in the Serpentine, to which he most strongly objected, In point of fact the labouring classes alluded to, called bathers, were the riders of Rotten-row. (A laugh.) Lord J. BROWNE hoped the vote for Kew-gardens would not be acceded to, as it was wholly unnecessary. Mr. FITZROY reminded the hoe. gentleman the mem ber for Perth that Kew-gardens were the most frequently attended in the neighbourhosd of the metropolis. When first they were opened there were only about 9,000 persons who visited them in the course of the year, whereas during the last year they amounted to half a million. With respect to, the geraniums, .they were the most beautiful feature in those gardens, and he should certainly use all his end a yours to promote them. With respect to the question of the hon. member for Kildare, it was not in his power to decide who should or should not be allowed to pass through the parks. Alter a few words from Sir J. PAXTON, Alderman SALOMON S thought they should not grudge laying out a littl e mone y t o p romo t e t h e en j o y me nt of the thousands of the working classes who frequented Kew Gar dens. _ _ Lord PALMERSTON observed that if Kew Gardens were a source of amusement to the people. they also formed a source of great annual amusement in that house. Now, when the public amused themselves in Kew Gardens they returned home, and he hoped his hon. friend would allow them to do the same, and not compel them to take a walk through this house for the purpose of pleasing him. (A laugh,) No one could object to a vote for such a purpose, especially after witnessing the numbers who attended those gardens. He would recommend those engaged in specula tions in gardening to go on improving them, and the attrac tion would be equal to Hew. Mr. E. JAMES observed that Kew Gardens was one of the principal places of resort for the working classes, and there ought to be no grudging spirit in refusing the vote. The vote was then agreed to without a division. The next votes were a sum of £2,342 for the salaries of the Lord Advocate and Solicitor .General of Scotland ; and £275,000 for the expenses of the General Court of Session in Scotland. A sum of £6,200 was voted towards completing the ex• penses of the Court of Justiciary in Scotland. £620,200 towards completing the expenses of the Exche quer in Scotland were next voted. A sum of £2,000 was agreed to towards completing the charges of Sheriffs' and Stewards' Courts in Scotland. £7,956 was agreed to towards defraying the salaries of certain officers in the courts in Scotland who are not paid by salaries. A sum of £2,300 towards defraying the salary of the Scotch Solicitor of the Crown resident in London, and other officers, was also agreed to. The next vote was a sum of £1,032 towards defraying the salary of accountants in bankruptcy in Scotland, and one of £.51,630 towards defraying law charges in Scotland, was also agreed to. The following votes were agreed to : £1,210 for the salaries of certain officers in the Court of Common Pleas in Ireland. £10,850 to complete the salaries of certain officers in the Court of Exchequer in Ireland. £4,682 for salaries of officers in the Court of Bankruptcy in Ireland. £1,105 to complete the salaries of certain officers in the Court of Probate in Ireland. £4,011 to complete the salaries of the officers of the En cumbered Estates Court in Ireland. £35, 3 7 8 , for police magistrates and police courts i n Dublin. £31,878 for the Irish police. The next vote was £450,776 for the Irish constabulary. Lord DUNCAN observed that this vote was la,rzely in creasing,aud demanded explanation. Lord NAAS said that the Tote had increased in contie- quence of the increase of the force itself, which had become necessary from the pressure of circumstances. The aboli tion of the revenue police had caused a saving of £40,000. The vote was then agreed to. The next vote agreed to was £1,597 for the expenses of the Four Courts and the Marshalsea Prison in Dublin. The next vote was £14,907 for inspectors of prisons and officers of prisons in the United Kingdom. After some discussion it was agreed to. £250,154 to complete the sum necessary for her Majesty's prisons and convict establishments at home. After some conversation, in which Lord Naas, Lord W. Graham, Sir G. Lewis, and other members took part, The vote was agreed to, as were also two other votes for the convict establishments, but they were read so very in distinctly by the new chairman, Mr. Massey, that it was impossible to catch the amounts with any correctness. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the house resumed. THE CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITY BILL. This bill was read a second time. ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION. Sir (3 EORGE LEWIS obtained leave to bring in a.bill to amend the acts relating . to the Ecclesiastical Commis siOners, and the act concerning the management of Episcopal and Capitular Estates in England. FIREWORKS ACT AMENDMENT. Mr. JOHN LOCKE obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend the act of 9 and 10 Wm. 111., cap. 7, re l a ting to fireworks. The house adjourned at ten minutes to one o'clock. GREAT FIRE IN CHEAPSIDE. Last night, about ten o'clock, a fire of a most terrific character, attended with serious destruc tion of property and almost fatal consequences to thirteen human beings, and which was not extin guished till two o'clock this morning, happened in the extensive range of premises formerly occupied by the Anchor Insurance Company, but recently tenanted by Messrs. Fishers and Roberts, and known as the Anchor Dining-rooms, situate in Cheapside, next door to the ' celebrated watch manufactory belonging to Mr. Bennett. At the rear of these buildings stood the City News-rooms, and very fortunately they did, or there is little doubt but the damage would have been considerably greater, and in all proba bility many lives would have been sacrificed - . It seems that whilst one of the proprietors of the news-rooms was looking out of a window at the lightning, his attention was suddenly arrested by a large sheet of flame playing around one of the upper floors. He at once came to the conclusion that the building was on fire, and he forthwith shouted " Fire.' At that time five'females were in one of the front rooms shelling peas, perfectly uncon- scious that any accident had taken place, and eight other individuals were in the upper part of the premises, as well as several others in the lower floors. The persons engaged in preparing the culi nary additions for the next day's dinner looked out of the window, and with the greatest sang froid looked with astonishment at the lightning, little dreaming that the house they were in was on fire. The reality, however, soon became manifest, for what with the springing of the policemen's rattles and the arrival of the engines, they became con vinced that the building was on fire, and they at once made an attempt to get down stairs. They managed to get to the first floor, when immense sheets of flame and huge bodies of smoke met then► which prevented their egress by the regular way' and they were obliged to retrace their, steps to the rooms they had just left. As a last resort they tried to reach the roof, but they were completely prostrated by the heat and smoke. Fortunately they were enabled to get to one of the front win dows just at the moment that Conductor Low, of the Royal Exchange Escape station, arrived, and we are happy to say that he succeeded in bringinT down in safety the thirteen imperilled men and women. The fire by that time had obtained com plete possession of the building, which is several floors high, and strong apprehensions were enter tained for the safety of Mr. Bennett's watch ware house, in which watches, valued at £20,000, were deposited. His men, to their credit it ought. to be stated, packed in boxes the whole 01 the valuable • property, ready to be removed at a moment's notice, in the event of the fire laying hold of the premises, but fortunately such did not take place. Mr. Superintendent Braidwood , with Engineer Bridges, Perryer, Baylis, and sun dry other officials of the London Establi s h men tidid a they possibly could to subdue the flames, and one of the firemen, named Taylor, in his endeavours to get the fire under, whilst mounting - he stairs, they fell ; he was precipitated to the bottom, and was severely injured; the conductor of the Royal. So ciety's escape also was badly cut in rescuing the inmates from the front windows. At the time this account was written, the fire was far from being entirely extinguished, but all danger from further extension of mischief was over. It is gratifying to• state that Mr. Bennett has not sustained all, damage, except a trifling amount by water, but not in any way to deteriorate his stock. The news rooms have escaped without the slightest injury' aAd so have the houses on the east side, b u t the premises in which the disaster commenced' are de stroyed, and the contents consumed. The total loss must amount to several thousand pounds. The origin of the fire is enveloped in obscurity. The police rendered essential aid to the firemen by keep ' ing some thousand spectators out of danger. COUNTRY lIIA:RKETAS: COLCHESTER—JULY 16.. The weather continues extremely hot and forcing, an d the growing crops are making rapid progress towards ma turity. The wheat trade has been much depressed. At to day's market we had a small supply of wheat, at is to 2s per qr decline. There were a few samples of new peas offered, and sold well. Wheat, white 44s to 485 Beans Mazagan.. 3B s to 40s red 40s to 44s & small 42s to 44' Barley 26 s t o 32s I White peas 42s to 44 6 I Oats 26 s t o 30 s Grey 42s to 446 DERBY—JULY 16. Wheat realised 2s to 3s per qr. less money than last week, but the demand was inactive. Barley quiet. Oats and beaus are inquired after at late rates. From nearly all die; tricts reports are favourable respecting the appearance O' the wheat crop. Barley is also looking well. White wheat, new, 47s to 50a Barley, grinding.. 28s to 3 14 Red do. 43s to 46s Oats, old, .. 2BB to 3 20 Old white 4Bs to sls New do 27s to 32$ Red do 4os to 46s Beans.. .. . ... ... 49s to 540 Barley, malting— 38s to 43s I Beans, new 48s to 52$ ELD—JULY 15.! idly bringing bn the harvests r qr. Barley maintained it. Peas, Partridge 44s to 469 White 43a to 4 58 Boiling 44s to 46 0 Dun 41s to 43 3 Beans, Tick 403 to 425 Harrow Ticks 41s to 46 3 Mazagan 40s to 445 A.LDIT—JULY 16. to-day of wheat and oats, but ra tes dull: Wheat is to 2s per qr. last week ; oats and barley 6d to Barley (N). Oats (N). 31s 6d • 22s Od 33s Od. 26s Od —s Od 27s 6d 'Bk.ley (0). Oats (0). —s Od —a Od . 77 -8 Od —6 Od —a Od —s dO .ET-JULY 18. the close of the market) Walls End. s. Hetton.... . ... l7 6 South Hetton 17 2 Hartlepool..... 17 ,`; Hetton Lyons Main 15 ` g ' South Kelloe l6 Haswell..... 17 6 Braddyll's Hetton 16 ( 2 Keiper Grange 16 6 g Russell's Hetton 16 Nixon's Duffryn 21 A Powell's Duffryn Steam2l v 59—Sold, 48. BIRTHS. BoxxEa.---On the 17th inst., the wife of George Bonner , Esq., of Lower Tooting, of a daughter. DYSON.—On the 16th inst., at Woodbine Cottage, Mort lake, the wife of W. T. Dyson, Esq., of a son. TILL.—On the 16th inst., at the Vicarage, Chertsey, th wife of the Rev. Laurence Till, M.A., vicar, of a son. M ARRIA GE S. Euxixs—EvArTs.---On the 16th inst., at Holy Trinity Church, Cloudesley-square, Islington, Mr. John Edkin°: Zof 6, Belitha Villas west, to Dorcas Kate, the younges t daughter of the late Thomas Evans, Esq., of Leweot Sussex. HOMEWOOD—LASLETT.—On the 14th inst., at WingW u Church, Henry Homewood, E sq ., o f Bea u f or t-place. Bath, to Louisa, youngest daughter of the late Richard Laslett, Esq., of Dean Farm, Wingham, Kent. DEATHS. CATHCART.—On the 16th inst. at St. Leonard's-on -Sea' General Earl Cathcart, aged 76. DALGLISH.—On the 15th inst , at 10, Tollington-pari c ' Holloway, John Dalglish, Esq., late of Mincing-1a" aged` 72. DOUGLAS.—On the 15th inst., at the College, Durham, t ll6 Rev. Canon Douglas, aged 66. GORDON.—On the 16th inst., at Tunbridge Wells, Lor d Randolph. Seaton Gordon, se ven th son o f th e Marquis 0f Huntley, aged two months. HAMILTON.—On the 11th inst., ,at 12, Bolton-row, gaY 3 : fair, William Richard H am il ton, E sq., F . R . S ., age d RINGER.—On the 16th inst., at West Green, Tottenlialn* J. S; Ringer, Esq., aged 49. SIMPSON.—On the 12th inst., at Cheltenham, Lieut.-0;1 James Simpson, late H.E.1.C.5., aged 81. YARDE.—On the 11th inst., at Scarborough, John Yar de ' Esq., of Ton.bridge House, Crediton, Devon, aged 67. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG , of No. 112, St ran d, P r i n t er , at The S un Offi ce , No. 1 1 1 Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, In the count/ °1 Middlesex, Tuesday, July 19, 1859. CHEL - MSFO The fine hot weather is rap Wheat to-day fell 2s to 38 pc price. A dull market. Wheat, white 42s to 51s red 39s to 46s Barley 32s to 40s heyalier 34s to 418 26s to iia Malt 63s to 68s Chevalier 63s to 69s Oats 25s to 34s KIRI We had fair supplies t, ther small of barley. Salo lower than the prices of is under late rates. Wheat (N). First.... 40s Od Second.. 46s Od Third .. 47s Od Wheat (0). First.... —s . 0d Second.. —s. Od Third .. —s Od COAL MARI (Prices of Coal per Ton at s. d. Fuddle's West Hartleyls 9 Howard's West Hart lOy 16 0 Wylara 10 0 Eden Main .15 9 Walls End. South Hartlepool 16 0 Tees . l7 6 Heugh Hall 15 6 Whitworth.. 15- 6 Kelloe l6 6 Ships at mark<