The Sun. — London, England, 1829-02-11 00:00:00

- 7E.... r 7.1 r racy ',tarn AMWRY renuy to amnit h. concurrence thereto, but he was afraid his opinion was no, founded on the same grounds as those adduced by the Right ' Km. Secretary or the Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken. He did believe it to be essential to the safety of the country and thehononr of the Crown, that the Catho lic Aesosiation should no longer be suffered to continue. lint had not that Association long been an evil to Ireland, and if the act of 1825 was not sufficient for the purpose of putting it down, was it not the duty of Government to aPply to Parliament before now for addition powers ? Bat the Right Hon. Gentleman had said that within the last six months new eircurrestanoes had arisen to make this application necessary, and that he was further induced to 'coupl e this measure with an ulterior one. Ile saw no new eirenmstances, and the Right Hon. Gentleman hail id orm , - ed him of none, which would not have justified him in ap plying to Parliament at a notch sooner period for addi tional powers. With respect to the great question of Ca tholic Emaneipetion, he had heard nothing as yet to in duce him to change his opinions.e--(Hear.)---e-He thought it was impomeible but that, in the course of last summer, when the Right /lon. Gentleman was cheered throfighteo England as the champion of the Proteetant caet-e, while We knew that he was about to propttse this rireasure, it nets impossible but that his tnittd tiltiSt hate felt reel paih. lie knew it was the ditty of ail men, wh'eil `coliVineed '6f error, to retract; but the Ri l,t 16, Gentleman statue, that be still enteettliet thh !Ame opinion on the qneetien of the Colhbile truism, though the circumstances of the coon i.VYr-eeve oomjselied hit t 9 adopt a different course with iterteet to it. The Right lion. Gentleman anticipates, with inrush confidence, the re-union of the Protestant mind after the proposed measure was carried. lie (Sir Edward Keatchbull) trusted and hoped that re-union would take Arse ; but he regretted that it would not take place on the 'authority of that man on whom he had hitherto relied, and Who, to his unspeakable distress, had change., the course which he had before adopted. Ile could assure the House that though the Right Ilan. Gentleman had altered his ' 'Opinion, he (Sir E. Knatelibtill) still retained his former sentimente.—(Hear.) Mr. PEEL rose to explain. The Hon. Baronet had charged him with allowing himself to he sheered throngh. out the country as the champion of the Protestant cause, at A time when lie must have been conseions that he ine Eended to propose the meaenre for Catholic relief to Par liament. He deelared to that Hon. Member, on his ho nose, that at the time to which he alluded, though he (Mr. Peel) had made up his mind to the conree which be should adopt, yet he had e v e ry reason to expect that he i s nuuld express his opinion in a private capacity unfettered "Y office. But there was a eiretimstanee which left him to alternative but to express that opinion in a public ea- Pueily. The time was not yet come when he could folly • explain that circumstance. Mr. G. 1140 ORR rose to express his assent to the men tore which had that night been proposed by the Right Hon. Seeretary. He had frequently advised the euppree . eien of the Catholie Association, and perhaps it would be in the recollection of the Heuer, that very nearly twelve taontles ago he had the honour of entering most fully into the details of this vital subject, on presenting a petition, praying for the very thing which Government had now determined to de. The Catholie Association, he consi dered, by its proceedings and inflammatory harangues, was dangerous to the public peace, and inconsistent with the spirit of the Constitution. It bail gone farther than any body of men, and had shaken the foundation of civil li berty and social order, and be implored the advocates of the Catholic Claims, by their remonstrative; and perena *ians, to ac com pli s h, if poss ibl e , th e ex ti nc ti on o f that k "dy. He scarcely felt it neeeesery to say, that in sup porting this measure, he did so for very different reasons t han those which influenced the Right Hononrable Mem ber who introduced this measure, the Noble Lord oppo eite, or the Hon. Member for Preston, who snpporte'l the "'Amore because it was necessary to the success of an ulte rior measure. He gave the Right Hon. Gentleman the fullest credit far every statement he had made respecting t he state of Ireland, but he would ask, from what source had this state of things arisen ? If society was disown i?ed, how had lit been effected? It was the consequence of the Catholic Aeeociation.—(Hear, hear, hear. )_lf the • Public peace was endangered—if the social ties had been di aloived throughout the country—who was it that had had operated this mischief? The Catholic Aesociation.— ( "af.)—lf a peaceful population had been converted into 4 military colonisation, to whom was the country indebted for it bat to the Catholic Association? Was it possible th at any man who had attended to the proceedings of the A s sociation, should not feel oonvineed that every rebellious t e4 a, are intended to intimidate the Government originated - Lta it ?—(Hear.)—Why, then, was the Association suf '-'ered to proceed so far 9 In asking this question, he was far from imputing blame to the Right Hon. Gentleman.— ' f He sous willing to give him credit for the ;statement that fonnd it impossible, with divided councils, to carry a tttstire of imperious necessity through the Hoare. Bat what sourer of serious reflectio n did thi s f ac t o pen with re etet, tto the great measure soon about to be introduced.— r ua t a practical illustration did it not afford of one branch ° I the wells likely to attend on the measure called Catholic e mancipation. If the principle so frequently laid down'by the Right Hon. Gentleman were rorrect—namely, that the Catholic* introduced into hie Majeety's councils and the "gislature would be always actuated by the desire of pro in.9tiog their own peceliar interest, in opposition to the general interests of the country, what waive of division 411 ,0 ' 1 disunion would emancipation be. Parliament was now upon to purchase a measure of imperious necessity "Y the surrender of Protestant rights. The Right Hon. 6ente tafY had, last Session or the preceding one, presented ; petitio n against concession front the general body of the r° testeate of Ireland—.persons of the highest rank and ta lent, and perfectly competent judge* of the state of the r °aatr 3 Right • That petition was numerously signed, but the non. Gentleman might depend on it, that the sig ,:tifea to the petitions which were about to be presented drat be still more nnmerone .—(Ch eers .)—H e trusted mat tire present Bill would not operate eo as to depress the nCharacteristic sp irit of constitutional loyalty displayed by • klejeet▪ y' s P ro t es t an t su bj ec t s i n I re l an d. H e nee d e d 11° ts he wa s sure , t o i mpress on t h e m i n d o f t h e Ri g h t H on . ~„_ rutlernau the necessity of guarding ag a i ns t th e introdne -1"u into the Bill of any clauses, provisions, or language t i f l !jell could give o ff ence or tend to discourage the constitu d-nwd loyalty on which dependence must be placed for the Cence of Ireland in every point of view, military and po rde,L__, t Hear, hear.) th ' a ll' J. YORKE did not intend to follow the last speaker u rn tigh his long, learned, and luminous speech. (A langh. .e roust protest against an Hon. Member oe th e o th er . 118 , who had declared that all those who voted for the mea :',"fe et preaent before the House, were hound to support e one which was expected to follow. He considered the remit meager@ to be the brat act of the Apostles. (A k t „g b ,•) His principal object in rising, was to ask the H on . plu mber of the Catholic Association, whom he saw in his 11 em ee , (mttch laughter), wheth e r h e was present in that as -0;71 on the last occasion on which it met previously to 1 , 6 grtat agitator" making his apperwance in this country ? Hon. and Learned Member who spoke last had attri- Aced the most extraordinary influence to the Association. „aordin g to him, the Association bad succeeded in making 1 ,% 5 9 Poultry, and potatoen clamorous for the removal of *abilities. (A laugh.) Never was there such an extra :rdinary power ae this. Now, he wished to ask whether, 'l l the o ccas i on to w hi c h he a ll u d e d, t h e " great agitator " p!ie would not mention names) did say, that un l ess nnqua fied Ene,,,,,i pation were gran t e d, the Association would ?Intim', to meet; and, furthermore, that when he came into that House, which from an exceedingly long letter 'Which bed been published, it appeared he hoped to ammo- Dlieh by getting rid.of Parliamentary law and relying on "a *outman law, the first thing he would do would be to propose the dissolution of the bated union ? He was not 41P are that the Hon. Member of the Catholic Association ever the way h a d emp l oye d any o f hi s e l oquence i n soot hi ng me ardent temper of the " great agitator." On another , Z t eation it was reporte d t h at t h e " great ag i tator " said it 11" term him only six hours to get rid of th e Bill, t j h e "ociing of whi c h o ccu pi e d th e Mi n i s t ry six weeks in B P 6 • If his Right Ho n . F r i en d did no t t a k e care h ow h e 17 11 ed hie new Bill, p er h a p s thi s person m i g h t aga i n s li p 1 4 *telt oat of the collar, and set up another Catholic As • - Amni on. 'Or. V. STUART was not present in the Association on 4:4°ooaeion alluded to; but as the " great agitator" had ted in town, he might perhaps satisfy the gallant mem -4°ll the points with respect to which he required in don. th ee • A'. 0 BRIEN said, that Government, by taking 16 lemur, of everaneipation into their ovin hands, had de t; ! f ed Irela n d from it faction already revelling in the an eee',/41, tees triumph of a civil war. He s pok e th e l anguage it "fie Catholice of Ireland, when he declared that they felt C o al for the been offered them. te, ° , ll MILTON did not feel himself called upon an- AZ for what any person might have said in the Catholic ~,,7eiation, bat be would answer for himself, and s a y, that e jela tt athe p resent measure were followed by unqualified sh o netpation, he could not give his approbation to it. He 1 1 . 4 44 he could prove also to his gal l ant friend, that he n b ound to give his as sen t t o th e measure th a t wasex ett*l_ , to follow the one befor e th e H ouse , b ecause h e h a d ch est that he considered the present Bill as only the itn4rtr of the acts of Ministers. Now, if there was a c haPter, these must, he apprehended, be a secund.. Pie nature 01 tilt) ail, and the ,xtree.rtimary powers which it proposed to corder np , h she G:wernsnent, rendered it less objectionable, than if an endeaVotts held been made to make it more ernnviible with what were eoiondered the established fortns of the Constitution. His principal motive in rising was, in aotinti vihdicate the Catholic Association from the attacks which had been made Upon it. The Honourable Baronet (the Membet for kent) had particularly attaeked the Associa tion. Ile seemed to think that it had been guilty of every crime that tumid pas* he committed by men associated together for political purposes. Por his (Lord Milton's) town part', he ttionght that Ireland tted this cmantry were deeply indebted to the Akeociation—(Flear)—for although twine individttals in the Association, whilst smarting under tthredremed wrongs, might occasionally have been diverted into language not consistent With perfect wisdom, never theleas, lie thought that by embodying the public mind of tke Catholic population in a form ndt absolutely illegal, the Association had been of the greatest benefit, and had had a powerful tendeney to prevent the outhagen which it was ininffeist 11t,tis the statement of the Right Hon. Secretary the &nett* had for many years past beets ih danger of being subject only was Ireland, hat the empire at large, indebted to the Cathillic Association. It kostertr tipiq , ai - W to him that the period at which the Association could be useful had now expired, and as Go vernment had determined to grant a great act of justice, lie thought it was entitled to say that the Association should ceseeto exist. If, however, the second measure should by any unfortunate accident not be carried into effect, he would not, when the operation of the present Bill should consent to any enactment for preventing the revival of the Catholic Association.—(Hear.).—When a large body of men had grievances to complain of, it was infinitely better that they shonld possess an organ like the Association for expressing their complaints and arranging measures for their relief, than that they should, under the pressure of their wrongs, be betrayed into outrage and violence. The Hon. Member for Kent said that he would have valued the Right Hon. Secretary more if he had still remained at the head of the party to which the Hon. Member be longed. He would remind the Hon. Baronet of what the Right Hun. Gentleman had said on a former night— namely, that there were occasions when sacrifices mast be Lade by some party. In such eases those who made the greatest sacrifices were entitled to the greatest praise. If evidence were wanted, the proceedings of last night af forded strong proof of the fact that the Right Hon. Gen tleman had made the greatest sacrifices with regard to this question. So far from being subject to attack for his con duct, the Right Hon. Gentleman should be considered worthy of the applause and gratitude of his country. By sacrificing an apparent consistency, by maintaining which he would still have continued at the head of a great and powerful party in this country, he bad raised himself in the estimation of all men capable of estimating what con duct ought to he pursued by an honourable man.--(Hear.) Lord MORPETH was not disposed to (petrel with the provisions of the present Bill, which he thought were as moderate as could be hoped for; but he was of opinion, with many of his friends, that emancipation was the best, and indeed the only way of dissolving the Catholic Asso- elation. When the great measure had been determined on, to talk of the other seemed only a piece of tautology. The language employed in the Association had been designated as unconstitutional, inflammatory, and subversive of civil rights and social order. lie could conceive that the deter mined opponents of emancipation would feel inclined to vent a portion of their disappointment on the institntion which had not been without a share in paving the way for emancipation. It was impossible to consider the progress of events during the last few years without yielding to the conviction that the Catholic Association, whatever its mis takes and errors might have been, had mainly contributed to the progress, anti, be might now say, to the settlement of the Catholic Question. He would cheerfully give his vote for the suppression of the Association, but he hoped it would be effected without any unnecessary display of harsh ness or angry feeling. It was the custom in ancient times to offer sacrifices on the achievement of any great act of national justice ; it was not, however, usual to leave the victims exposed to the hootings and peltings of the crowd, but on the contrary, they were invested with pant of the sanctity of the proceeding. It was not considered neees eery to insult whilst immolating, and to trample on the victim after the fatal blow had been struck. He wished in nothing he had said to lessen the merit due to those who had undertaken the great national measure of emancipation. An officer who had lately dedicated a book to the Duke of Wellington had explained the cause of the attachment of the 10th legion to Caesar. To the British hero was re served the greater glory of extending the attachment from the soldiers of a legion to the citizens of au empire. His recent visit to Ireland enabled him the better to estimate the benefits which would flow from tie great measure in contemplation, and which converted him front,a witness to her wrongs into a prophet of her gratitude.—(Hear.) Mr. ROBERT GRANT said he should give a reluctant yet a decided support to the measure. The grounds of that support would be understood when he stated that he should have felt great difficulty in affording it, had the proposition originated elsewhere than with Government. Without the -slightest feeling of disrespect to the Right Hom secretary (Mr. Peel), and still lees from any desire to embarrass him in the difficult situation iu which he stood, and in the conduct of the arduous achievements which he had un dertaken, lie felt beund to declare that he could not eolleet from the Right Honourable Gentleman's speech any substantive reason for the adoption of the pro paled measure. The Right Hon. Gentleman had afforded a luminous and impressive exposition of the evils which now distracted the sister kingdom ; but giving all possible weight to that exposition, what did it establish?— the expediency, the necessity, not of the present Bill, but of that which was to follow,—the Bill for the removal of the Catholic disabilities. And in proportion as it established the necessity of that great conciliating measure, in that proportion it threw doubt on the expe diency of the harsh qualification by which it was now to be preceded. If he looked to other speakers in favour of the measure, he found the same difficulty in understand ing how it could be defended. The arguments of the Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir E. Knatchbull) who had exhibited so much talent in vindication of what did not require to be yin dieated, his own highly honenrable and consistent charac ter, amounted to little more than to a question which certainly it (lid not seem very easy to answer, namely why, if this measure was of such extreme importance now, it had not been found equally necessary three or four years ago. With respect to the Hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. G. Moore), he had asked to what source all the present evils of Ireland were to be ascribed, but to the Catholic Association ; but the Hon. Member had forgotten to ask an ulterior question, and that was, to what goatee, the existence of the Catholic Asso ciation itself was to be ascribed? Was it not clear that the Association arose from the state of the law ? and then this became an argument, not for suppressing the Association, but for altering tke law. For himself, he thought that the present measure partook too much the character of that angry legislation which had so often prevailed in Ireland, promising peace and scattering discord ; he feared that, ea far as it operated at all, it would tend to prevent the experiment o f emanc i pat i on f rom b e i ng fairly tried ; and it was yet more unhappy, as a preliminary to emancipation, which required no sneh preliminary, bat was rather itself to be considered as the preli minary to all just and wise legislation M respect to the Irish p eo pl e . With all this, he was prepared to support the proposition, and he would state why. If this measure were past, and emancipation did not follow, it would make scarcely any assignable difference in the state of Ireland it would he no more than a drop added to a cauldron al ready boiling over ;—on the other hand, if emancipation followed, and produced the good effects he expected from it, it would be found powerful and salutary enough to neutralise the evil of this measure among the other evils of the country. Thus the present measure seemed to him to became insignificant, in comparison with the benefits of granting Emancipation on the one hand, and with the mischiefs of denying it on the other; and so thinking, he was then prepared to act on a feeling which he knew he shared with all the truest friends to the expected measure of Emancipation ; namely, that in respect to the execution of that measure, they ought to place the utmost possible confidence in those by whom it hail been so nobly planned and so manfully recommended. Yes, every eon& dente was in this matter due to the King's Government-- to the Monarch, whose British heart, and to the Ministers, whose sound undersitanding, had projected so great a work. The Government might know of good reasons for the pre sent preliminary measure, of which he was not apprised. As to the expected Bill for Catholic relief, there could be no secret, no mystery, in the reasons for adopting it: They Appeared on the very surface of the embroiled and distracted conntiy to which the measure chiefly related. It was otherwise with the present measure. There might be alarms, there might be honest'prejndiees, in influential quarters, which it; would have the effect of removing, and he was willing to leave the adjbstment of such matters in the hands of the Duke of Wellington's government. It was very poseible that what to him appeared an melees if not a mischievous incninbrance, was, in fact, an important friction wheel, for the pur pose of overcoming some resistance of which he was not aware. He was, on these grounds, prepared to assent to the prevent measure; and not only so, but going beyond a Noble Lord (Althorp), who said he would barely s--to expedite it es much as possible—that the greater measure which was to follow might be accelerated in is progress, and might be st t beyond the reach of adverse ea•. sualties. In a wer-I, he gave, on this men ,sion, his hill confidence to the government, assured that it wound be nobly justified. Mr. BANIC.I;,S would ask the Hon. Member, who seemed to think that the putting down the Catholic Asso ciation in the first instance was net the wisest course, whe ther he did not think that Association dangerous to the public peace, and inconsistent with the Constitution; and if so, hew ebinti he for a feiornent contend that it might not to be suppressed ? He had heard from the Noble Lord an eulogy bison that body,—and he hoped it would Fore its funeral oration ; but if, as now seemed to be admitted by all, the Association was illegal, he would ask his Ma jesty's Government why it had been allowed to last so long? He brought this as a direct charge against them. They had heard the letters read that evening, arid no doubt they Wete properly read, and fully bore (Olt the object in tended, and proved the mischievous and dangerous tendency of that body. But those letters entered only a period of four months: Was not the Association in existence for years? This very evening *as to a day the fourth annit•ersary tif the disenssion in the House respecting the illegality of the Association. It was at that time contended, from the op. posits side of the House, that it was a body which ought not to be allowed to exist, and the suppression of which was necessary to the public peace of Ireland. The Bill for suppressing it was brought in by Lord Liverpool's Go vernment in 1825, and on that occasion they had heard the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gonllown), then Secretary, in which was detailed the dangerous na tnre of that body with as much horror of its illegality and dangerous tendency as the Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Peel) had done this evening. How were they to under stand this ? Were the Government playing at fast rind loose with them ? Were they advocating the suppression of the Association in that blouse, and at the same time basely and scandalously conniving at and encouraging them out of doors ? Was that the course they had pursued ? Why not try to put it down if they had the power ? and if they had not, why had they not conic to Parliament and . asked for such power as would be sufficient for that per pose ? What were the members of Government in Ire land, or their subordinate agents, doing ? Was it poeeible that they did not see the danger, or that having-the power some of those agents, to forward their own political views, did not carry the law against the Association into effect. He made it as a charge against them, that they had thus neglected their duty in this most important matter. After all that had been heard in the House on this subjeet--after the Act had been passed, empowering Government to pot it down—what occurred? Its existence was renewed, and it went on daily increasing in daring and audacity, and no step was taken by the Government to suppress it. He would ask, was not such conduct on the part of the officers of Government in Ireland an encouragement to the body which it was their duty to pat down ? How could his Right Hon. Friend opposite get out of this charge? The Hon. Member, who, as a member of the Association, had endeavoured to defend it, bad only acted consistently in supporting that body to which he belonged, and Le (Mr. Banker) believed, that if that Association had not been allowed to exist as it had so long, there would not be found at the present day so many members of that House in favour of the measures now proposed ; but he again asked why it had been allowed to exist for so long a time? Why had not sneh a measure as was now before the House been brought long before. As to the measure itself, he entirely concurred in it, and he fully approved of the manner in which the suppression was to be effected ; for as a remedy it would be more effectual, and would trench less on any constitutional privilege than a more specific measure. It would effectually cheek the momentary dan ger. It would have been more effectual and more honour able to the consistency of public men, if it had not, been so long delayed. Looking at this delay, and the measure with which it was intended to follow up this tardy act of justice, he could not but consider both as a desertion of principle and consistency, which waa to be exceedingly la mented in pnblie men. The character of public men was public property, and he was always sorry, as all men roust be, to see them adopt measures which must necessarily lower them in public estimation. Mr. R. GRANT said a few words in explanation, bat they were not heard in the gallery. The Marquis of TAVISTOCK felt great pleasure in considering the change which had taken place in the sen timents of the Noble Doke, and the other Members of the Administration, on the important question to which much of the present discussion referred, and he was sure that in this he only shared the satisfaction experienced from the same cause by the educated, the enlightened, and intelligent portion of the community. He agreed with those who supported the measure before the House, though he could have wished that the measure of conciliation had not been introduced on terms which might tend to lessen its grace and dignity. He admitted, however, that in great poli tical measures there were frequently a choice of evils, and that some sacrifices mast be made to attain a great object, and especially where so great an end as the freedom of Ire land was at stake ; and he, for one, would never forgive himself if, aiming at all he desired on that subject, he should risk the loss of so great a good, by objecting to so small an evil. The good, he felt, would be per manent, the price temperary--of the justice and policy of the intended measure, there could be no reasonable doubt. Ministers, he rejoiced to find, had seen the ne cessity of consulting the one and attending bo the other, and they did it in time to save the country from such eon. sequences as it mast he painful to contemplate. He did earnestly hope, that the measure then before them would pass without any obstruction from that portion of the House with which he was in the habit of acting, because he should he extremely unwilling to do any thing which would tend to tie up the hands of Government in this greet work of peat,e and freedom, and unless he should see in its progreea some violation of constitutional principle,it should hare his cordial and unqualified support.—(Hear.) Mr. DOHERTY (the Solicitor-General for Ireland) next addressed the House, hat we r►gret that, at intervals in the course of his speech, many of his remarks were ren dered inaudible from the manner in which he oometimes dropped hie voice. He began by observing, that as he had for some time been connected with the Government of Ire land, he should have felt called upon to offer a few words on the subject before the House, bat if he had not so in tended, the speech of the Hon. Member for Dorset (Mr. Bankes) would have rendered it necessary. It was due from him to the House and to the Government to say why the Catholie Association was not put down—why the Go vernment did not make the attempt—or why it did not dismiss those subordinate officers of the Crown who were unable or unwilling, or who were so base (for so the Hon. Member had put it) as to encourage the Association and to neglect their duty iu enforcing the law against it, in order to forward their own political views. These were the questions which the Hon. Member had asked, and though the term with which one of them had been accompanied did not entitle it to the courtesy data answer, ,yet he would give it, as due to the House and the Government. In the outset he took leave to say, that he hid no difficulty whatever in justifying the consistency and propriety of his conduct with respect to the course adopted in Ireland. Whether he was right or wrong, kis conduct continued the same sow that it ever had been on this great question. Whether right or wrong, he bad on all occasions, in or out of. Parliament, been opposed to the Association, and in favour of emanci pation ; and in anything which he had ever said against the one, or in support of the other, be had not deserved the taunts which the Hon. Member for Dorset had so un sparingly, and he must add, so unfeelingly and wantonly east against him.—(Hear, hear.)—He held office before the present Administration same into power, and in that House be had stated, that it was impossible that things could remain as they then were in Ireland. He had said this so dispassionately, and BO free from all bias of party at either side, as to draw upon him the distrust of both. He had stated to the House, that they must either go bask to the former system of penalty, or go forward to conciliation. He on that occasion had implored the House to enter into a serious consideration of the whole question, and of the influence which the leaving it unsettled must have on the peace and security of the country. H. thanked God that Government had examined the subject with the deep inte rest widish its importance demanded, and with such happy results; and if, after the eloquent appeal which he bad heard in support of the view they had take■ of it, he re gretted what the Hen. Member for Dorset had eaid of the disgrace attaching to the characters of public men, his re gret arose from a feeling of pity for the coestitntion of that man's mind who could think that a change of system, after due deliberation, was a disgraceful dereliction of public prin ciple. The Hon. Member should beer in mind that they met there as a deliberate assembly ; but to little purpose did they sit theme, night after night, listening to those who had the advantage of a nearer ♦iew of the effects of this subject in Ireland than was ever enjoyed by the Hon. Mem ber, if they were determined never to move from the .acne point, the same spot, and the same position with respect to it. To little purpose could they claim the cha racter of a deliberative assembly, if they commenced their deliberations with a fixed opinion and a deter mination that it should remain unchanged--(Hear, hear.)--He had on a former occasion stated his conviction to the House that matters in Ireland could not remain as they were, and be had now the additional experience of proving to him beyond a possibility of doubt, that instead of improving, affairs were daily and rapidly growing worse and worse; and if he had urged the then state of things in Ireland as an argument for the amicable and final settle ment of the great question, this argument was strength tried fourfold by his knowledge of the present eircutrs. stances of that conntcy. The Iron. Member for Dorset' had taunted his Right Hon. Friend (Mr: Peel) with look ing only at the events which had occurred since the last session, but he (Mr. Doherty) claimed for Government the right to look at the whole question, not merely with reference to the events of months, but also to those of years and years past. Other Members might congratulate themselves on their consistency in going back to their con stituents with their minds unchanged ; butgive him leave to say, that those to whom the responsibility of Government was entrusted were hound net to limit their view of public affairs to those of a party, but as their duty urged them to consider the advantage of the whole, their prospect must embrace all the subjects which could operate on the welfare of the great mass of the community. They were bound to consider all that had been urged on this question, and saperadded to that they conk] not shut their eyes on the fact, that, since, they had last met in Parliament, religious feelings had mixed themselves up with this question in Ireland to an extent which could scarcely be credited by those who had not daily opportunities of witnessing it;-- that this fact had given a new aspect to the question, and rendered its speedy and satisfactory adjustment a mat ter of increased and increasing necessity.---(Hear, hear, hear. ) --When the Honourable Member attacked the Government with not having put down the Association since 1825, he argued as if there had been only one Go vernment since then ; but did the Hon. Member consider how many Governments had been formed within that period ? How many members of those Governments deeply sympathised with the grievances of the Catt.olics, and were so convinced of the justice of their canes, as to believe that measures of coercion would not succeed in suppressing their complaints and their assemblies—that conciliatio❑ would rilider all coercive measures unnecessary, and that without it they would be worse than useless. He bad voted against the-Association in 1825, but it should be recollected that sines then we had a new Parliament, and it was by no means certain that the present Parliament would repose the same confidence in, or iutrnst similar powers to, a ministry, unless some hopes were held out, that the coercive measure was to be immediately followed by one of coneession.—(Hear, bear.)—He would admit that some members would adopt the former without em bracing the batter course, but he would not now go into the question bow far that feeling extended. He would come to what the Hon. Member had said of the subordi- nate officers of Government, of whom he had stated, that some of them had disgraced themselves, by neglecting to enforce the law, in order to forward their own political views. Of his own conduct he had before spoken. He would now say that the officer of Government, his flight lion. Colleague, the Attorney-General of Ireland, on whom more particularly would have devolved the duty of enfOreing the law against the Association, had that course been deemed advisable, was as cordial a supporter of the general politics embraced by the Hon. Member for Dorset as his(Mr.Bankes') heart could desire. When he said this, he wished to guard himself against the chance of mieeonstrnetion, by adding that his Right Hon. Colleague was too manly and straight forward on all occasions to comet his opinions on public subjects, and at the same time too strict in the discharge of his public functions to allow himself to be influenced by any consideration Whatever beyond his duty to the public. He had only referred to his known political opinions for the purpose of showing, that whatever neglect of duty the Hon. Member for Dorset might attribute to him (Mr. Doherty), his Right Ilon.Coller.gue could not be considered as a co-conspirator with him. The Hon. Member should also remember, that for a considerable portion of the time to which he had referred, his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Goul burn) wee in office, and from his known opinions on the subject of the Catholic question, he was not a man likely to be-influenced by such a partiality for the Association as to neglect his publie duties, and not prosecute them if prose cution were necessary. He could state with the most per fect sincerity that scarcely a day had elapsed since the time of his appointment to the office which he had the❑ the ho nour to till, in which his attention bad not been pointedly directed to this subject. It had placed him in an attitude of distrust and suspicion with men with whom he had long been contracted by every bond of friendship and affection. He had watched their debates with the strictest vigilance; he had observed them with the closest anxiety ; but he was bound to tell the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire, that after all his vigilance, and all his anxiety, it was the unanimous opinion of all his colleagues on the other side of the Chan nel, that it would have been an useless task to have under taken a prosecution against any individual for his conduct in the Catholic Association, and that an abortive attempt at prosecution would have been worse than nseless,inasmoch as it would have irritated without putting down the mem bers of that Association. He could not upon the present oc casion enter into a detail of all the circumstances which, in his opinion, rendered it impolitic to attack the Catholic Association—he would confine himself to saying, that it. was a matter of extreme difficulty to draw up a bill of in dictment against 7,000,000 of people.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition benckes.)—He did believe that baffled and hampered as the legal advisers of the Crown were, the wisest plan which they could pnrsue was to confess the real truth, that it was a matter of ex treme difficulty to frame such an indictment. He trusted that he had now said sufficient to exculpate himself from the charge of having acquiesced in the designs of the Catholic Association. In his opinion there eouW be nothing so base as for any individual to attempt to iOrward his own politi cal views by a partial administration of the laws. His duty did not leave him any choice as to the course which he had to follow. In that House he might urge a change in the law, but out of it he could do nothing but administer the law as he found it. He would, therefore, implore the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire to bear with him for a few mo ments, whilst he briefly pointed out to him the difficulties which beset the coarse of Government during the last few months. They had been adverted to already; but the consideration was so Important, that he trusted that he should be forgiven if he now adverted to them again. lie would beg of the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire to take into his consideration, that it was not in one or two, or three Parliaments, but in each successive Parliament for many years back, that the numbers of the supporters of this question were progressively increasing, and that pub lic sentiment was rapidly ripening in their behalf. With- in a very short time the question had been beset with an opposition more than usually furious from those who had always been its strenuous opponents. He knew of no mode of collecting the sense of the count:7 so satisfactory as that of ascertaining in that House the sense of those whom the country sent there as its representatives. He would not take the public sentiment from the tumultuous cries of any body of the people collected on a heath, but he wonld take it from the calm and deliberate opinions of their represen tatives in that House. Those opinions had been expressed repeatedly upon this question, and being such as they no - toriously were, what, he would ask the Honse,:eould the Government do ? Bit had wished to obtain more coercive measnres than those which it already possessed, for the pur- pose of putting down the Catholic Association, it would have entered upon a hopeless task, whilst the balance was perpetually increasing in Parliament in favour of Catholic Emancipation. Give him leave to suppose, that this question had been carried again, as it had repeatedly been carried before; by a majority in that House—give him leave to suppose that that majority should , go on, as he had no doubt bat that it would go on, increasing and to increase—give him leave to suppose also, that the wishes of each a majority should again be detested, as it had be fore been defeated, by a majority of adverse votes in the other Horse of Parliament.—.was there no difficulty, he would ask, in such a situation ? But again—give him leave to suppose that the majorities of the two Houses of Parlia ment should concur in favouring the repeal of the disabi lities affecting their Catholic fellow-subjects, and that their views should meet with obstacles in another quarter, which it would be irregular for bim to mention, except as a third branch of the legislature—was there no difficulty, he would ask, in a situation, which must inevitably tend to produce discontent and dissatisfaction in the mind of the subject to wards a quarter towards which no subject ought to feel discontent and dissatisfaction ? He therefore contended, that the wisest course which Ministers could pursue, was to take the management of such a question into their own bands, and to disembarrass themselves, as far as unman prudence would permit, from the difficulties in which its unsettled state was certain to involve them. All persons who voted with the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire justified their votes by their apprehensions of prospective dangers. He justified his vote by the pressure of present dangers.— (Hear, bear.)—The dangers which Hon. Members urged as a reason for not settling this question were doubtful, distant, and uncertain ; the dangers which led him to de mand a settlement of it, were plain, and urgent, and un deniable.—( Hear, hear.)—Was it not therefore the duty, the imperious duty, of a wise Minister to accede to the declared decisions of Parliament, especially when by so do ing the Empire obtained a prospect of seeing its peace and prosperity secured, and its power consolidated on the :nest impregnable foundations ? Here, however, be would observe, that the realization of that prospect mainly de pended upon the manner in which the present question was to be carried through Parliament. Giving lull credit to e former oppo nen t s of this measure for the most honour sincere desire to support the stability of the Constitution and the welfare of the country, he would implore them to consider seriously how fir they were likely to add to both by the conduct which they were then pursuing. We hare peen told of danger arising to the country—and certainly there may he great danger in appealing, as we see some in dividuals now appealing, to the passions and prejudices of th e vulgar. They are influential persons—and many of them deserve to be so—with the people of England ; and if, when looking at public events, they are inevitably fed to the conclusion that this question must now be carried as we wish it, let them lend their assistance to carry it in such a manner as will give it the appeeranes of an act of grace and favour, as will make it come with healing en its wings, and as will hill to rest the angry feelings and excited pas sions of a divided nation. As we have tried a variety of councils in our old course without secrete, let them now join with us in trying a new course under the auspices of Ministers, who have had the courage to take upon them selves all the odium and responsibility of advising it. Let them see whether such a course world not be productive of all the good effects which its advisers have attached to it. When he said all the good effects, he did not mean em have it understood that all those effects would be visible immediately. He would beg leave to remind the Home of what as humble an individual as himself had said in the last Session of Parliament, and what he would venture to repeat again at present—namely, that the carrying of this ques tion would be doing every thing for Ireland. Without it, we oan do nothing for the amelioration of that country ; with it we may do every thing. (Loud cheers.) In saying that all its good effects would not be immediately visible, it was only to guard against unnecessary expecta tions, and to prevent individuals who sowed in exagge rated hope from reaping in disappointment and despair. With respect to the allusions which had been made to the quarter from which this proposition emanated, he would only remark, that for his own part he cared nut from what qnarter it came,' so long as it had come. Still there was one observation which in commiin jnstice he felt bierself bound to make. Nothing could be more honourable than the conduct of the gentlemen opposite, who, from the out set, bad continued through good report and through bad report, through obloquy and danger, to be firm, steady, and uncompromising advocates of this important question. 'hey hail now cheerfully come forward to give their sup port to a Government, which for the first time in our history, bad determined to take it up as a Government question, thereby giving it its only prospect of success. He also felt himself called upon to sympathize with his Right Hon. Friend the member for Liverpool, that the great and illustrious statesman, who had so often flung the brilliancy of his talents over this great cause, had not lived long enough to witness its triumph.--(Hear, hear. I feel, Sir, continued the Hon. Member, that my conduct in making these allusions to thy - ~distinguished statesman now that he is unhappily no more, will not be attributed to any unworthy motive, for it has been justly, as in my mind beautiftilly observed, " that praises are not apt to vegetate on the tomb, if they do, they strike root downwards, and bear but little fruit to those who plant them ;" for my part, Sir, I look to gather no fruit from the praises which I tiles venture, with feeble hand, to plant on Mr. Canning's grave (watered as it has been by the tears of my affliction); but the mournful gratification of having offered upon this spot, and on this (I hope) not inappropriate ousasion, the humble tribute of my affec tionate admiration and regret to departed greatness. I consider the success of this measure as crowning and completing Mr. Canning's fame, devote.' a. I was to him in his life, and solicitous as I feel myself for that character which lie valued above life, I cannot do a more grateful service than forwarding by every means the eon summation of this important measure, to which he so long and en ardently devoted the best exertions of his varied and gigantic talents. It were useless now to detail the sacrifices he had made to the sincerity of his opinions on this subject; that inquiry niight • be painful to the living, and must be unavailing to the dead.—(Hear, hear.)—May the result of our labours this evening justify all the anticipations which he entertained of them; and may we date from it the commencement of a new state of things, pregnant with peace and prosperity to the British empire!—( near, bear.),-[The Learned Gentleman then sat down amidst great cheering, elicited by the tribute which he paid to the memory of Mr. Canning, and which we are sorry to say was very indistinctly heard in the gal lery, in consequence, as it appeared, of the Honourable and Learned Member's labouring under indisposition.] Mr. HUSIOSSON.--elifter the able and eloquent speech of his Right Hon. and Learned Friend (the Soli citor-General for Ireland), in every statement of which he agreed, and every feeling of which he admired, he could assure the - House that he should trespass but shortly upon its indulgence. It was not his intention, when he entered the House that evening, to offer himself at all to their notice; but the speech of the Hon. Member for Dorset shire had compelled him to change his intention, and to break the silence he had determined to keep. His Right Hon. and Learned Friend had given a more formal reply to the observations of the Hon. Member for Dorsetahire than in his opinion they deserved. His Learned Friend had successfully vindicated that part of the Government with which he was snore particularly connected, and which had been eharged with the execution of the law, of the non-execution of which the Honourable Member for Dorsetshire so loudly complained. But at he (Mr. Huskisson) had been in the Councils of his Majesty daring the alleged period of such misconduct on the part of the Government, and as he had belonged to the Cabinet which the Honourable Member had accused of conniving at the designs, and of nurtnring the growth, of that dangerons Association, which had been in undisturbed existence, he said, for the last four years he trusted that the House would allow him to say, that it was not unnecessary for him also to vindicate his part of the Government from the aspersions which had been cast so unjustly upon it. That vindication was most easy; and, strange to say, was af forded to him by the speech of the Honourable Member himself. The Hon. Member seemed to think, that the measure now suggested by his Right Hon. Friend, the Secretary of the Home Department, was a very pro per measnre to put down that Association. He agreed with his Right Hon. Friend as to the expediency of that measure under all the existing eireninstances ; but if it had been proposed by itself, he should have been hound to con sider it as a total suspension of the constitution in Ii eland; and he shoald not have been prepared, whilst the wrongs of the Catholics were miredresemed, to suspend the consti tution permanently in that country. In reference to the , perioil to which the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire had alluded, he was called upon to declare that the Act of Par liament which was then passed—he spoke of the Aet which was passed four years ago—had undergone very long and serious deliberation on the part of Ministers. He de (dared further, that it would have been impossible, in the way of definition, prevision, and enactment, to have gone further than that Act did, without interfering im properly with the rights and privileges of the subject generally ; and that from the period in which that Act was ' passed, down to the period in which he ceased to have a share in his Majesty's councils, the Government had been most anxious to give full efficacy, as far as was consistent with the liberty of the subject, to such provisions of it as were intended to guard against the mischief of the Catholic Association. When he first caw the mode in which that Act was evaded in Ireland, his mind was made up to this eonelusion—that there was no mode of termi nating the danger arising from the Association without vesting in the Government a considerable portion of arbi trary power,—indeed ends a portion as it was now proposed to vest for a time in the Government of Ireland. Now he would ask the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire, whether he was prepared to place such power In time Irish Government permanently ? He was not at liberty to state to the House what passed in Isis Majesty's Councils during the period in which he had the honour of enjoying a seat at the Council Board,—neither was it necessary that lie should do so : he was at liberty, however, to state this,—that having come to the conclusion which he had just declared to the House, he could not help coming to another conclusion also ; and that was, that consistently with his public duty he could not grant to the Government that arbitrary power which was necessary to put down the Catholic Association, with out putting an end, at the same time, to the crawl system of -exclusion which called that Association into eaistenee.— Either in or ont of office, he never would have agreed to such a measure of coercion, if assured it was to be a per manent measure, unless it had been accompanied at the same time by nn assurance that the evil system which the Association sought to remedy was going to lie abandoned. (Hear, hear.) He trusted that he had now vindicated himself from the harsh imputation, which had been thrown try of hi M s lw emp a jsteerfy foorD4hre; last tehi four years;reupo-nthe and rearqionsihle athat he had also stated enough to show that he meant strenuously and sincerely to support the measure Which had that evening been proposed by his flight Honour able Friend the Secretary of State for the Home .Depart ment. He should support it s because it appeared to bine necessary to put down an Association whieh, in the lan-• gunge of his Majesty's speech, was incompatible with the maintenenee of justice. with the authority of the Crown; any in ll d e the s pears, of Ireland. He supp or t e d it bec a us e it was no w more necessary t h at ever to put down t h at Asso c iati on , i nasmuc h as there was'a degree of fearful ex citement existing between the two great religious parties in I re l an d, w hi c h, if no t represse d , m i ght b rea k out at • into actual collision and violence. tie ap. j Wo) k of emancipation, because he felt that during the - dismeu es i ee of a questioe that came so directly hone to the bosom of the community, that excitement might be still further in creased, and attain a most alarming height, owing to the ini.repreeentations which might accidentally get abroad. He agreed with the Noble Lord who was Member for Bed. ferdshire, that in practical polities Government had often a choice only of two evils, and that consequently there must often be compromises to avoid collisions between ex treme opinions. It was the duty of his Majesty's Mini stems to try the effect of such a compromise in the pre sent case, provided they kept in view the object for which it was effected ; and therefore he was prepared to give his support to the compromise which the present Government was making between two contending factions, and to the mode in which they were making it. He was of opinion, that in this mode of compromising collision the desire of Ministers was that the compromise should be made in the spirit of conciliation. (Hear. ) Haring adverted to the subject of conciliation, he would now join with the Hon. Member for Kent in deprecatin g the acrimonious language with which his Right Hon. F r i en d had been taunted the difference between his former and his present opinions. It was not necessary for a gentleman whose character was so highly esteemed by the Honse as that of his Hon. Friend to vindicate himself from the taunts of the Hon. Member for Bristol. He deprecated the use of such language upon all occasions. He trusted that the Honse, in discussing this question, would proceed with the same temper, mode ration, end forbearance, as it had displayed on all former crecations when it was tinder discussion. It had ro cone darted itself formerly, and he trusted that it would do so now. (Hear.) As his lien. Friend had alluded ter pub lications out of doors, which were earl ied on in a very ( 141 ferent spirit from that which lie had ventured to recom mend to the House, he trusted that if his Hon. Friend should take np any of the publications of the day, and should find a letter in them addressed to the Protestant people of England, by a person of no small influence, who from his connection with the county of Kent could not but be in intercourse with his Hon. Friend,—be trusted, lie said, that if his Hon. Friend should find a letter from a noble personage designating the majority of both Houses of Par liament as degenerate senators—(loud and repeated cries of 4 , hear,")—he trusted, he repeated, that such language ad dressed to the Protestant people of England, and appealing to their worst passions and prejudices, wonld only serve to draw from his Hon. Friend that kindly admonition which he had heard him administer that night with so much good effect to the Hon. Member for Bristol. (Hear, hear.) Sir F. BLAKE was almost inaudible from the noise and coughing in the House. We understood him to de fend the consistency of Mr. Peel, on the ground that he had not changed his opinions, bet had only yielded to the pressure of the times. Great credit ought to be given to Mr. Peel for his recent conduct, and he thought that the Home Secretary was fairly entitled to take for his motto the words of the poet:— " Nil conseire sibi, null, pallescere enlpa." • He wished to know whether the Hon. Member for Dot setshire, if he were in the situation of the Duke of lington—in short, if lie was Prime Minister—(Roars of laughter and cries of Oh !)—lie wished to know whether' the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire would resist this pro position, and involve the country in civil war, rather than concede it, and promote the general prosperity of the empire.—( Hear. ) Lard PALAIERSTON wished, before the Meese came to a vote upon this proposition to state to them the view which he took of it. He confessed that it would be nistels more agreeable to him, if the great measure of Catholic emancipation had not been coupled with this measure to put down the Catholic Association. He could have wished that that measure, which ought to he a measure of gine and favour, had not been coupled with any measure of coercion. He thought that it would have been more manly more generous, and more wise for Parliament not to have accompanied so glorious a measure with any act to put down the Catholic Asseciation.—(Hear, hear.)—He could have wished that Association to have died the death which would naturally fall upon it after the concession of Catho lic emancipation. The existence of that Association de , peniled on the existence of d national grievance; and front the moment in which that grievance was redeeesed, if would have commenced its death, and would have ceased to require the hand of the Legislature to accelerate ire dissolution.—(Hear.)—His first objection to the presete measure was, that it was unnecessary, considering the course which they were going hereafter to pursue; and his next objection was, that if they did not follow that coarse it was perfectly ineffectual, for there was no Act of Palliest runt, consistent with the spirit of the English Conetitne tion, which could put down the Catholic Association ex cept emancipation.—(Hear, beer.)—Pnt down the Asso ciation ? You might as well talk of putting down the winds of Heaven, or of chaining the cettOess titles of the ocean.—(Hear.)—The Catholic Association was spoken of as if it were a corporeal being, capable of being, grasped by the law. This was folly ; for the Catholic Association was the people of Ireland.—(Hear, bear.)—lts Spirit wee amused by the grievance of the nation, and its seat was the bosom of 7,000,000 of its population It was therefore idle to talk of pntting down the Association, except by re moving the melee to which the Association owed its existence. But as lie knew that time opinions of many persons were to be consulted on this question, he was will if the granting of this Bill were likely to make OM eonverta to the cause of liberality, to make a temporary ea erifice of principle for so material an advantage. When we have it in our power to make a bridge of gold between the two countries, it is unwise to make only a bridge of iron ; he would assist, however, in establishing that bridge, rather than go without is bridge at all. He could not hell' expressing the sabisfaction which he felt, in common with the nation at large, at the determination which the Go vernment had at last adopted to give peace to Ireland. The measure would open a career of happiness to Ireland, which for centuries she had been forbidden to taste, and to England a prospect of commercial prosperity and national strength, which bad hitherto been unknown to her annals. The labours of time present session would link together two classes of the community which had long been dissevered, and would disperse the fatal cloud which had long divided the shadow of morning twilight from the brilliant effulgence of the mid-day sun. They would form a monument not of the crime or ambition of man, but of the calm and deliberate operation of benevolent wisdom watching for the good of the human race ; and they ought to be proud that their hands would be employed in a measure which would pass down to time latest posterity as an object of their respect, gratitude, and veneration.— (Cheers.)--His Right Hon. Friend the Secretary of State for time Home Department hail been taunted with time inconsistency which appeared between his past and his present conduct. As to the taunts which had been east upon him by a party which were not only stung by disappointment that this measure was granted, but which were also stung by disappointment that he would not lend himself to the fnrtherance of their purposes, he trusted that his Right Hon. Friend would treat them with the disdain they inerited.—(Criee of " No, no.")—Gentlemen might say no, but he said yes. What he had said he bad said upon deliberation. He said that the party which taunted his Right Honourable Friend were stung with disappointment that he would not lend himself to the furtherance of their purposes. He thought that his Right Honourable Friend had acted in a direct and manly manner. When once he came to a conviction that the dangers of further i e eistance were greater than those contingent on the settle ment of this question, he pursued a manly course in re commending to Pediment to settle it; and he was of opi nion, that when his Right Hon. Friend, at the close of his valuable life, ehonld review the great benefits which he had conferred upon his country, lie would fix upon his conduct on this question as the greatest and most glorious portion of his career. It would be, perhaps, unb ecom i ng were he to indulge any particular exultation over any of the parties who had formerly resisted the Catholic question, and who had now come forward in its support. But be hoped he might, without any invidious allusion, be per mitted to say, that they who had long labonred in this great cause, who had uniformly supported it throughout ito progress, and who had continued their steady advocacy in defiance of pnblic obloquy and private aspersion—that the men who had encountered all these difficulties would now be allowed to receive their reward, in the constimma tion of opinions, the soundness and justice of which were no longer capable of being resisted. Whatever privations suck min must have suffered, they have now the high se tisfactinn of feeling, that their time had not been lost—that time best spirits, the noblest faculties which Providence had given them, had net been exercised in vain, in illuminating the understanding of the society to which they bad devoted t!, eselves,—(Hear, hear.)—Wh en he did this justice to the great men who had spent their Tires in the advocacy of this cease, he must say, that he was unable to understand nature of the reproach which had been so unsparingly east upon those public men who had changed their opinions on this subject. It was very strange that this ehould he deemed a repro'aeh_ in a popular constitution; anti in a po pular assembly. , t'or what purpose was it that the great nein to whom be had alluded had poured forth thestores of their mighty minds, unlocked the breast of genius, unless to open the minds of those who differed from them, and con vince those who had taken up opposite positions ? 01 the Ministers who ;had hitherto objected to the repeal of time penal laws, it could lie fairly said, that they had not yielded until actual pecesiity had compelled then).—(Hear.)—He